I took the timeline fragments in Daniel and pieced them together to form not just 7 year view, but one that spans 1335 years since the current desolation. The comparison is interesting. Click here for more.
~ by Marianne on January 2, 2009.
Posted in 2012, 4 horses of apocalypse, 666, Israel, Jerusalem, apocalypse, beast of daniel, christianity, church, dreams and visions, end times, god, jewish messiah, jews, prophecy, rapture, religion, signs of end times, temple mount, tribulation, war, zionism
Tags: 2011, 2018, antichrist, covenant, daniel, Israel, messiah, peace treaty, prophecy, seven years, timeline
For gullible blacks, they should know that muslims consider them “dogs.” Arab muslims hate them, and consider them stupid and easily manipulated for Islamic purposes. I was told this by an ex- muslim from a muslim country, where the opinions are strong.
Islam enslaved them once, sold them into slavery to others, and continues to enslave them today.
When will blacks ever learn?
They forget that “white oppressors” fought to free them as well.
Biblical Christianity has never taught that anyone is inferior.
Seems you are very minsinformed about Islam. Who was Bilal? Before Muhammed (pbuh) brought Islam to the Arabian peninsula, Bilal was a slave from Abyssinia (modern day Ethiopia). Abu Bakr, one of the first Muslims and best friend of Muhammad (PBUH) bought Bilal’s freedom. Bilal, a black Muslim, became an important member of the Islamic community. Meanwhile, God’s Messenger told everyone in his last speech that “All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over a black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.” Does this sound like the treatment and encouraged behavior against “dogs”?? Get your facts straight before you start trying to look smart because we have the documents since before 1400 — you’re just making yourself look like an uneducated person who only goes by LIES. And Christianity does not treat anyone inferior? Please re-read your Bible and the history — why did the Convention of Nicea — while voting if Jesus was truly the son of God — make women to be in the lowest category? Uh-oh… someone doesn’t know their own faith and it’s roots!!
Hi Adam,
The Islamic view is admitted and respected here. You can disagree with me. But I might disagree back.
The roots of Christianity are in Jesus, not a council of Romans.
I guess you will then have to explain the muslim controlled black slave trade that has been going on for all these centuries. We know that in Islam, all kaffirs are “dogs,” including Christians and Jews. Women in the early church were honored and respected, and not beaten, like in Islam. Those that adhere to the teachings of Jesus, and not man, display the same respect. This information comes from those who grew up in Islam, but left it.
I also acknowledge that not all Muslims beat their wives, but it is allowed in the Quran. It is not allowed in the bible. In the bible, it says for husbands to honor their wives. In the same way, it is possible that some Muslims are not racist, but others are. In more civilized areas, there may be tolerance, but in less developed areas, I am told that Muslims are racist.
You got this quote – not from this post, but elsewhere on the site. It would be better to see where you got it, so we can discuss it in context. Racism is wrong, and I am happy to hear you do not feel that way. I hope most educated Muslims are not.
blessings
marianne
First sickle is the Rapture of Christian believers, the 2nd sickle is God’s wrath
October 14, 2008 · No Comments
First sickle is the Rapture of Christian believers, the 2nd sickle is God’s wrath
Is Jesus’ Coming for his church and bride at Pre tribulation, Mid, or post tribulation Rapture?
The timing of the rapture, the truth concerning Rapture, the main debates about Rapture’s timing
http://www.geocities.com/holyspiritliberty/rapture.html – Click
To nonbelievers reading this subject has to do with one of the promises that believers in Jesus Christ have been given providing those believers are ready when this event occurs.
This event has to do with being caught up supernaturally in the skies with the Lord, before God pours out his wrath upon those who have rejected Jesus Christ and accepted the false messiah also known as the Antichrist. The main focus of the debate that surrounds the event called Rapture is not if it will happen, but when. The information that follows below has to do with this debate. Please understand that this particular document is not entry-level instruction for this subject. It’s written to those who already have a good basic understanding of this event and the debate that surrounds it. I hope you will read it anyway. Do not divide the Lord’s Church over this rapture issue and remember the grace and the shed Blood of Jesus Christ alone saves us. This so no flesh could boast before God, not that anyone could ever merited any right to do so. Brothers and sisters love one another as you debate or discuss this subject and blessed hope.
Does the Rapture of the Church occur Pre, Mid, or post Tribulation.
The following questions are asked to determine whether or not you accept the authority of the Word of God. Since God is not a God of confusion, there must be a correct interpretation to the (approximate) time of this event. Following will be numerous questions related to this event. After you have answered these questions review these scriptures, footnotes, and statements so you may determine if you answer is correct within the Word of God.
QUESTION 1. (READ: 1st Corinthians 15:51-56 before answering.)
Since this scripture is speaking on one of the mysteries of God (Rapture) and Paul says it will occur at the last trumpet. Where and when does this trumpet occur in the book of Revelation?
NOTICE: Paul doesn’t say first, second, or third trumpet, but last, which is the seventh.
Before you answer Question 1. read the below scriptures from Revelation. Pay special attention to the following key words while reading these scriptures. The key words are LAST TRUMPET and MYSTERY. Remember, in the book of Revelation the last trumpet is the seventh.
(Revelation 10:5-7) * (Revelation 11:15-16) * (Revelation 14:12-16)
QUESTION 2.
Where in relation to Revelation’s trumpet call is the last trumpet blown? (seventh trumpet) And how far into the tribulation does the blowing of the seventh trumpet occur?
QUESTION 3.
Is this last trumpet, which Paul was speaking of, in 1st Corinthians the last trumpet described in Revelation? (Rememeber: The last trumpet in the book of Revelation is the seventh.) If you do not agree what then did Paul mean by last trumpet, especially since we agree that this event called “Rapture” occurs at the end of the church age. If you do not agree that the last trumpet Apostle Paul spoke of is the same last trumpet as is spoken of in the book of Revelation, then why did Paul associate the term last trumpet as a description for defining a period of time when rapture is to occur? If you’re not in agreement then what last trumpet is Paul talking about if it’s not the last trumpet of the trumpet call of Revelation?
Lets take a deeper look at this mystery from scripture with much more detail then we will go from there. Holy Spirit in the mighty name of Jesus Christ I ask for your Wisdom and for wisdom and understanding to be given to your children who are called of you to understand this difficult subject.
1 Cor 15:51-57
51 Lo ! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Commentary note on: 1 Cor 15: 51-52
In verse 51 and 52 above we see the words Mystery, Last Trump and the word raised. Paul obviously is talking about a resurrection of believers here, otherwise he would not have used the word RAISED in respect to the dead. He is also talking about the end of the church age. With those things in mind lets look at God’s Word some more.
Revelation 10:5-7
And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be no more delay 7 But in the days of the trump of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.
Commentary on Rev 10:7
Now here in Revelation 10 verse 7 we see the Word “Mystery” and the promise that when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet the Mystery of God would be fulfilled. We know the 7th angel in Revelation is the same one who blows the 7th trump. Here in Revelation 10:7 is only the promise, the angel is not sounding it here. Now lets look further into the Word of God.
Revelation 11:15-18
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give you thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which is, and was, and are to come; because you have taken to thee your great power, and has begun to reign. 18 And the nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear your name, small and great; and that you should destroy them which destroy the earth.
Now in the scripture above we have the 7th Angel sounding his trumpet. Notice that it says in verse 18; “your wrath has come” speaking of God’s wrath and also “the time of the dead that they should be judged.” We know these are believers because it says the servants, the prophets and the saints. Also rewards are spoken about. You only give rewards to children in the kingdom. This is the resurrection Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians. It occurs at the blowing of the Last trump, which is blown by the 7th angel. We also know these are believers in Jesus because the white thrown judgment resurrection for the rest of the dead, does not occur until Revelation 20.
One additional note on God’s wrath, notice from Revelation 11:15-18 above that until this scripture God’s wrath has not yet come. The time that it has come is announced in this scripture. All events that have occurred before this scripture are judgments and tribulations from God, but it is not his wrath. Let us continue with this scripture below.
Revelation 14:13-20
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yes, says the Spirit, that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them. 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, (Insert: Rapture starts here ) Thrust in your sickle, and reap: for the time is come for you to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
(Insert: God’s Wrath starts here after church is removed ) 17 and another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
First sickle is the Rapture of Christian believers, the 2nd sickle is God’s wrath
Now this is where Rapture actually takes place, Rev 14:14-16 is the Rapture. This is the 1st sickle where Jesus comes and takes his Church out of the world and out of his impending wrath. Notice the word Harvest is used, Jesus also uses the word Harvest when explaining the tares and the wheat in Matthew. Now the next sickle (2nd Sickle) starts in 14:17-20, this is a wrath sickle. The 1st sickle is a Harvest sickle (Rapture). Be sure not to confuse these two sickles. Once again the 1st sickle in Revelation 14:14-16 is the Rapture. The second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 is a wrath sickle. The Bowl judgments begin right after this second sickle in chapter 14:17-20. As Jesus promised and Apostle Paul spoke, Jesus delivers us out of his wrath. Exactly as Paul was instructed and wrote to us by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I would like to point out one more thing to all reading, Jesus said in Mark Chapter 13 that the church age generation shall not pass away until all these things take place. What things? All the things he spoke of in Chapter 13. In Mark 13:37 Jesus also said this. “And what I say to you I say to all: Watch.” Jesus said for ALL to WATCH. He was speaking to his disciples and to us, Watch for what? Everything he spoke that would happen in Mark Chapter 13. Note Jesus did not say what I say to you I say to all, except for those who will be raptured before any of these things happen.
Jesus also talks about the tares (nonbelievers) and the wheat (believers). Jesus makes it clear they grow together until his coming. Jesus’ coming and rapture are in fact the same event. Here are a couple of those scriptures.
Matthew 13:29
But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, You gather together first the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Commentary on Matthew 13:29
Notice Jesus says to the reapers to gather first the tares (nonbelievers) and bind them into bundles to be burned. Jesus does not command them to be burned at that very moment but rather be bound and gathered first for a future time that he will destroy them. This binding and separation will occur during the time of the Antichrist. Those who take the buying and selling mark of the antichrist will be bound and separated, to be burned after the church has been raptured.
Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
1 Thessalonians 4:16,17
“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”
First, Please note that in both passages, a trumpet sounds before the dead are raised to life.
Now although this may seem quite simple, it is very important to observe this very simple commonality, because we’re about to compare these two passages to another passage that contains Christ’s own description of His second coming. Here it is:
Matthew 24:30
“Then the Sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming of the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with the sound of a great trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
So in Christ’s own words, at His second coming a “great trumpet” will be sounded, after which His elect will be gathered together, “from one end of heaven to the other”.
This is exactly the same event that is described in the first two passages. In all three, a trumpet is sounded, and in all three, the ‘elect’, or believers, both dead and alive, are gathered to Christ.
To my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, Fear Not. Jesus promised to never forsake you, or leave you. He will provide protection during these times. Trust Him. Trust His Word. I have shown you the truth from Jesus’ Word. This is why I do not accept pre tribulation rapture, but rather pre-wrath.
Hi jesustheking,
I agree that the rapture should occur pre-wrath, and not pre-trib. What confuses things some is that the “child” which really represents Jesus, but can also represent the church, goes to heaven right before the woman in Rev 12 enters the wilderness for 1260 days. She later on goes to the wilderness again for another time, times and half a time in the second half of 12. All I can think of is that the escape to the wilderness is described twice, but happens only once.
The last trump and the great trump also is a description of the event at the end of the Feast of Trumpets, so maybe this is an indication of the time of year.
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne.
I see can jesustheking’s point,soundly based on scripture…
So i would like to take it a bit further and ask this.Do you believe that it possible at least,that the resurrection of the just and the unjust,[old testament and new testament].The rapture of all Saints and the final judgement and rewards for unbelievers and believers,could possibly at the same day,that is,the last day? The following passages of scripture is the main reason that i ask this…
The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.And the SEVENTH angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:14,15 KJV. emphasis added.
And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. Revelation 11:14,15 KJV.
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the TIME of the dead, that they should be JUDGED, and that thou shouldest give REWARDS unto thy SERVANTS the PROPHETS, and to the SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.Revelation 11:16-18. KJV emphasis added…
He will SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Isaiah 25:8 KJV. emphasis added.
The Prophet Isaiah is speaking to the people known as Israel… Also the people Israel were called the church,that was in the wilderness.Acts 7:38 KJV]
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 KJV.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. 1 Corithians 15:53,54 KJV. emphasis added.
The Apostle Paul is quoting Isaiah 25:8… According to the context of both 1 Corinthians 15:51,52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 the resurrection of the Saints precedes,[or that they are risen before those of us who are alive and remain are "caught up" together with them... So then,death can only be "swallowed up in victory when all the Saints are raised". Therefore Old Tesatament saints must be raised with New Testament saints...So this means that the resurrection and the rapture and of all Saints is at,the last day....
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:God having provided some better thing for us, that THEY without US should not be made perfect[complete].Hebrews 11:39,40 KJV emphasis added.
The writer of Hebrews is speaking about Old Testament saints [THEY] and New Testament Saints [US] So then the Saints cannot be made complete,apart from one another… And so,WE all must be raised and raptured together,at the last day…
Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the RESURRECTION at the last day.John 11:23,24 KJV.emphasis added.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION of life; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION of damnation.John 5:28,29 KJV emphasis added.
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a RESURRECTION of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15 KJV emphasis added.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting LIFE, and some to shame and everlasting CONTEMPT. Daniel 12:2 KJV emphasis added.
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the BOOKS were opened. Daniel 7:9,10 KJV.emphasis added.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the BOOKS were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,according to their works. Revelation 20:11,12 KJV.
And WHOSOEVER was not found written in the BOOK of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 KJV. emphasis added.
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:31-34 KJV.
If Revelation 20:11-15 was the final judgement of the unsaved only,then it would not make sense that verse 15 should say WHOSOEVER was not found written it the book was cast into the lake of fire… So then,both Matthew 25 and Revelation 20 these seem to indicate a general[one] judgement]…
I know it’s a lot to read,however,as i said before,you do not seem to mind doing research.Especially to help other believers …
Blessings and peace
Yehoshuamyking.
Hi Yehoshuamyking.
You ask a complicated question.
First of all, I do not believe we can rely on the Book of Revelation for chronology. The chapter 11 that you quote refers to the time of wrath and judgment of the wicked, when the Beast will not show up until Chapter 13, and Babylon does emerge until Chapter 17. Bowls of wrath are still being poured out in 16.
I think Revelation is a series of random “snapshots” – not in chronological order – of events that occur in the last days. Unless one event definitely says it follows another event, we cannot really assume much. If we do, we will be confused. (I certainly do..!)
So the judgment described in Rev 11 seems out of place. I think it is making an announcement of something to come, not something that is going to occur immediately.
One thing I notice is that the saints in 11 are only given rewards. Surely, we all have to account for our lives, mistakes made, errors of ignorance, sins that we may not completely have repented of, etc. It is possible that the judgment of the saints for their bad points has already occurred, but the rewards are withheld until the very end, when others will be involved.
I am no expert. Only God is, on everything He means. But this is what I think so far.
I think that all believers who have come to Christ sincerely – including Jews that convert during their 3 ½ years of Jacob’s trouble – will all be removed before the wrath of God occurs.
This means to me that there are 2 phases of the last days – tribulation, then wrath. If you follow my definitions, then you will understand. My definitions are different from many others.
During phase 1, tribulation occurs, and Christians and Jews alike are persecuted in different ways. Messiah comes and gathers all those that turn to him. Rev 12 indicates that believers are still on the earth helping the Jews when Satan attacks Israel (the woman). Messiah comes at Armageddon and rescues Israel. It is then that Israel’s redemption is complete, and the wicked nations who attack are punished.
During Phase 2, there is nothing but the wrath of God on the wicked of the earth. All saints – both Christian and Jewish are gone – raptured according to Matt 24. The rapture would include the resurrection of the faithful, but not the unfaithful. They are removed for safety. While the wicked are being punished, those who have been raptured are faced with their life issues, and come to understanding and wisdom.
Once the very end comes, when the final wicked ones are destroyed physically, then ALL the wicked come to judgment, any converts who might have turned to God during the wrath (not many according to scripture – it says man would not repent)
At the final judgment, after the wrath is complete, called the Great White Throne Judgment, it is time for “rewards.” The wicked are raised from the dead at this time, to be judged as well.
All the wicked are then cast into hell, which is their “reward.”
The righteous are then given their heavenly rewards, according to their deeds on earth, since their lives have already been reviewed by God.
The reason I think the saints are judged ahead of time is because I can see no way to come into the presence of God (after rapture), without immediately being aware of one’s own faults, and needing reconciliation immediately.
I think sometimes the scriptures like John 5 and Acts 24 are given for simplicity. The resurrection of the just and unjust appear to occur at the same time, but the passages actually do not say that. It just says that both will be resurrected at some point. But they seem to occur at different times, based on other scriptures.
The WHOSOEVER in Rev 20 refers to the goats (fake believers- they thought they were saved but weren’t- false converts) and the wicked.
Well those are my thoughts for now. I may not be 100% right.
What do you think?
Blessings
marianne
Hey Marianne:
After reading your answer,i took another look at Daniel 7:9,10 and compared it to Revelation 20:4,5 instead…
The thousand thousands that ministered onto him [the Lord] in Daniel 7:10,seem to be also sitting along with the Lord on the throne[s] that were cast down in verse 9…We know that the those that the Apostle John saw and spoke of in Revelation 20:4 are not under judgement,but were given,judgment of others… Probably of the ten thousand time ten thousands,that stood before the Lord in Daniel 7:10.Perhaps they are judging along with Christ Jesus,the goats of Matthew 25 and the resurrected unsaved dead of Revelation 20:11-14…
So then,it looks to me that you are right about the WHOSOEVER of Revelation 20:15,if the judgement seat of Christ for believers,has already taken place… For these Saints of Revelation 20:4 and Revelation 6:9,have been REWARDED,and are now reigning with Christ Jesus,at the judgement of the goats and the resurrected [dead] unsaved…
Then again Marianne,i may have missed your point altogether…I believe that the scriptures teach that the Saints of Revelation 6:9-11,that were martyred at some point in history,ie the Apostles and others, must wait to be resurrected along with their fellow servants and BRETHREN.I am speaking of the Saints of Revelation 20:4-6,that are martyred during the tribulation…
If the rapture is not postrib,then,does not this mean that that the only Saints that will sit upon thrones and reign with Christ are Jewish Christians [Israel]? that are martyred during the tribulation?
So it makes no sense,if the resurrection and rapture is either pre-trib, pre-wrath or even mid-trib…Seeing as though many have been martyred throughout history,for their testimony of Christ Jesus …These were not all Jews [Israel],however,they were all servants of Christ and bretheren …Tell me what you think
Marianne,i have to tell you this:
As a believer,i am impressed with your knowledge of scripture,but especially of the way that you communicate with our brothers and sisters including myself,even when you disagree with them,us…
Moreover,the fact that you are a fellow SISTER in Christ makes me proud… Not haunghty pride,but humble,the kind of pride that does not offend our God and Savior…
Thanks Marianne,many blessings and peace…
Your sister in Christ,Delores [Yehoshuamyking]
At Last!!!
The light has shined in spite of me…Please forgot about the other posts.I am so glad that you did not answer the last one… However,do not overlook what i said about you personally… Pre-wrath rapture! Yes Marianne Yes,i get your definition now…Or should i just say that it was given unto me to understand…
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which DELIVERED us from the WRATH to come. 1 Thessalonians 1:10 KJV emphasis added…
Hallelujah,now i can sleep and it will be sweet!!! Thanks Marianne,may you receive abundant blessings from our Lord.
Delores [Yehoshuamyking]
hi Delores,
I am glad you can sleep now .
Well, I do not know everything God knows. Sometimes I just guess, based on what scriptures I find. Then later, I might change my mind if I find out more passages. It is an ever evolving process to try to figure out what God thinks! This means for all of us!
One thing that makes interpretation difficult is that there are about 6000 years of history that precedes the final events. how does God deal with Old Testament faithful? one place I saw seemed to indicate that Jesus rescued them from the underworld when he rose from the dead. So t hey are already in heaven.
Then there are the new testament martyrs and saints….they are dead now too. then there is 2000 years of generations of people..how long do they wait to see god? then there is this generation that might experience the tribulation. what does he do with us? what about people who are bad and then repent during the wrath? what about those that miss the rapture? where do the jews fit in? they are predestined to be saved, but how does that affect them? does it really matter WHEN the dead get resurrected? what matters is what happens to them next – heaven or hell?
In all this questioning, we just have to trust God that he is smarter than we are, and will receive (through death, rapture, resurrection) each of us at the right time, judge us quickly, so he can reconcile with us, and punish the wicked when he is ready.
In all this he will show more mercy and patience than we ever would. He will keep his promises to test us, but he will not give us anything that exceeds what we endure. we can also expect that the stronger ones will have more to endure than the weaker ones. He is fair to both the righteous and the wicked, giving many changes to succeed and be victorious, before any judgment.
Those that ask for protection will be helped, according to his wisdom.
blessings
marianne
PRETRIB RAPTURE – HIDDEN FACTS
How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He is now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. Since Jesus must personally participate in the rapture, and since He can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends, the rapture therefore cannot take place before the end of the trib! Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) (which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening – Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who would be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54)! (Will death be ended before or during the trib?) If anyone wonders how long pretrib rapturism has been taught, he or she can Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards.” Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 it was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Other Google articles throwing light on long-covered-up facts about the 178-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Revisers of Pretrib Rapture History,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” which is available at Armageddon Books online. Just my two cents’ worth.
Hi Todd,
I agree with you. I had a (?) mark on the rapture part. This post was not about the timing of the rapture, but trying to understand how the 2300 days and the 7 years fit together. Maybe I took on too much, and caused a confusion.
If you see on this page, at the bottom,
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-7-year-end-time-covenant-in-days-and-years/
I have a note that I do not believe in a pre-tribulation, but a pre-wrath, rapture. This way the tribulation is over before Jesus comes, and punishment of the wicked begins. The rapture is noted with a (?) mark in the chart, because I do not understand why the woman flees 2 x in Rev 12, and the point that the “child” goes to heaven before the first 1260 days. Since other scriptures like Daniel indicate that Jacob’s trouble is only 3 1/2 years, other things must be going on. It also says toward the end of Rev 12 that the rest of the woman’s offspring helps the woman, indicating the believers are still around, and not gone.
I guess I should just have one post ONLY about the rapture timing, and not get into other things. I DO believe it occurs after the tribulation, and before the wrath, and whatever time is needed to accomplish each one.
But for now, maybe these other posts help a little to clarify my thoughts.
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/jesus-the-hallel-and-the-4-day-gap-in-prophecy/
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-goat-and-the-2300-days/
blessings
marianne