Arguments for and against pastor salaries
Scriptures used to justify salaries:
(1)
1Cr 9:7 Who goes to a war any time at his own charges? who plants a vineyard, and eats not of the fruit thereof? or who feeds a flock, and eats not of the milk of the flock?
1Cr 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
***** Paul didn’t say he was demanding a salary…to preach the gospel is to reap the fruit….that is saved souls…that is the payment for his work…
(2)
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.
****** Honor yes…it does not say double money…or take the tithes as salary…what is the reward for the preacher? money or lost souls? if he is preaching for money, he is selling the gospel. This makes him a merchant, not a preacher.
(3)
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
**** unrelated to salaries…..you sow the word of god…you reap souls…..:you sow to the flesh, you reap to the flesh, you sow to the spirit, you reap in the spirit.
The logic argument for salaries:
We agree nobody should be greedy for money, pastors included. However, the scriptures are clear that the good elders are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR. So they can collect a salary. The saints should be more than happy and willing to ensure the good laborers in the gospel in church leadership are taken care of if that person is full time (that’s day and night) in the gospel and not working in any other line of work.
*** again….see above….honor is honor, not money…..people in bible times gave their lives for the gospel….now they want to get paid….see where all the power went? this is why the church has no power anymore….everyone wants to get in on getting paid…..and doing nothing that the early apostles did for it….they want the rewards, without the self sacrifice…..they want to make everything physical, instead of spiritual.
Argument against the salary as the harvest for the pastor:
how is honor translated as money? another meaning for honor is reverence and respect…..were the early apostles paid? most of them worked for a living….paul made tents…the others fished, and said that everyone had to work, and support himself, or they had to leave…
even now, there are many who work as volunteers and no one offers to pay them, yet they still work…..salary is reserved for a select few….who do not necessarily work full time – 24-7, sowing the word on new grounds.
this could also be written:
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture says, Thou shall not silence the ox that treads out the corn. (ie. let the man preach, do not silence him) And, The laborer [is] worthy of his fruit, naturally resulting from toils and endeavors, rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavors
since what he sows is the word, which is spirit, and not physical seed, what he reaps is to be spirit also…..not materialistic/physical in nature….money is physical….
to be busy 24/7, someone must be sowing the spirit seed of the Word all that time….no one does that..
a farmer does not stand in one spot all day and sow all his seed into a one foot square area….he goes out into the entire field and sows……
most ministers do not do this…they stay in one spot, and sow the same seed..,…over and over, to people who already have the seed…..
once someone is saved, and has read the bible once, studying it, they should no longer need a pastor….they are mature and ready, and equipped to go out and sow their own spiritual seed, to reap their rewards (souls of their own). this is how the early church grew so quickly….
remember the apostles were most likely only in their 20s…they were ready after a few years of training….
nowadays….church members vegetate in the pews for 30 years in one spot…..as one pastor tells them the same thing over and over.
this would more appropriately apply to an evangelist….who is supposed to go out to new fields constantly, and sow the word…..to bring in souls…..his reward is spiritual, not physical….
the reality:
no one follows the spirit of the bible now……everyone wants to get paid for what they do….so since they have their reward on earth, they forfeit a reward in heaven……
***final note….Jesus and the apostles did accept free will offerings. However, there is nothing to indicate they received salaries.
see also
seed time and harvest…. Click here for more
tithing in the church….. Click here for more
tithing for Christians and Jews….. Click here for more
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Arguments for and against pastor salaries « Heaven Awaits said this on April 18, 2008 at 1:38 am |
I think the reality is a bit more complicated than you describe it. Jesus and the disciples were travelling around, so we should kick all pastors out of their house and let them walk through the country? If not: they need a place to live and that place costs money, easy reality. Jesus was not married and had no children, neither were the disciples married nor had children to support.
In the arguments against a salary for the pastor you try to learn people that the pastor should only live from spiritual things, and isn’t allowed to eat (which is physical!). You try to enslave a pastor in working 24/7, but neither did Jesus. Read the Bible about all the great meals they had!
The early church grew quickly, but NOT because they didn’t need pastors! Read the structure in the first church and you will read about leadership and structure IN the church! We are called not to forget the meetings, so not just to go out into fields. A farmer only sows a few weeks every year, chills 6 months and than harvests.
I feel you have some strange ideas, rewarding the pastor only with spiritual things. Are you greedy? There are lots of churches who don´t have a paid pastor, and others that do have one. Neither is good, neither is bad. It´s just the way things go. You try to spiritualize everything, but thank God that Jesus also knew about our physical needs! He didn´t eat for 40 days, but had some great meals during His ministry time. When he was resurrected, He was waiting for the discpiples and had already prepared a meal for them on the beach. Wow, so Jesus wasn´t all that spiritual, not even after He had been dead and was resurrected!
John,
It looks like we are on opposite sides of the fence here.
The way I see it, the early apostles never turned the church into a business with church programs, and administrative boards, and building programs. They just preached the gospel, which did not happen 24/7. They did it as they met people. They had their own earthly jobs, and supported themselves. There was no elite group that got paid. All believers acted in one of the five ministry roles to bring in new converts, and educate them. It did not take seminary school or a lifetime to become active. Once someone was a believer, they studied the scriptures, and then they were busy about the Lords’ work. They did not spend the rest of their lives in bible studies which told them things they already know. New converts became ministers as soon as they were ready,
Today’s church does not mirror the early church. Pastors do not spend much time at all, if any, teaching new converts. They spend most of their time with “church programs,” if they are busy at all. They are business managers of a business. They are not really pastors. So, most of their activity is unnecessary, and not biblical. They are part time at best, in the actual ministry. There is no reason to pay a full time salary to someone who is part time. The other members do very little if nothing to bring in new converts, since that is what the pastor is paid to do, even though he spends 0 time doing this. They do nothing, except go to bible study, and learn things they already know, or learn things from a teacher, because they do not read the bible on their own. They are forever attendants at a church that hardly grows, and is more likely to be decreasing in size.
Today’s church is either a a graveyard, or a place of apostasy. Neither appeals to those who are truly seeking God and wish to serve in the kingdom. Only paid staff are considered anointed and chosen by God. The rest have to do what they are told, and give money so the elite group can be paid.
This scene is not for me. I was in it my entire life, and want no more of it. Someone can serve God, while keeping their earthly job, just like the apostles did, and like Jesus did, and reap the spiritual benefits. Jesus never promised a salary to his apostles, even through offerings were not refused. They did better than pastors do today, because they did not commercialize the gospel, and did not spend their time in unnecessary activities, ignoring the unsaved.
Do not get me wrong. I attend a local church, which does not have any new converts. Although the size is small, maybe a few hundred people, they have at least 10 paid staff. What do they do? I do not know. The pastor is not available during the week, and never answers even an email. I volunteered to work in “outreach to the lost” but they do not have a ministry like this. The only things unpaid people are expected to do is play music, work the video, dance, vacuum the carpets, and hand out church bulletins. They do occasionally go overseas to Europe, but they go to minister to church groups there, not to win the lost. So I do not understand why we support them with funding, if they are just fellowshipping, and not preaching the gospel.
I wish modern day pastors would wake up, and realize how dead and boring they are, and their churches are. I wish they would realize why people are leaving the church. It is a poor witness for Christ, and is hindering the gospel, not helping it.
blessings
marianne
Dear Marianne, there are still groups of believers who try to bring the Gospel of the Good News: the coming Kingdom of God to the people.
It is wrong to think that as one is once saved, and has read the bible once, studying it, they should no longer need a ‘pastor’ or some spiritual leader. To be able to grow and mature in faith and character building according to the Wish of God, they need to come together and regularly read the Scriptures. Therefore there are still interested people to “keep the ground fertile and water the plants”.
When those people are not paid ministers or pastors, they have to spend their time and own money voluntary. When we try to proclaim the Kingdom and the Word of God we do not charge any body, though we still do have to face the cost of living and obligations (rent, postage, internetconnection, electricity). The problem with communities like ours, the Christadelphians, everybody is free to give what they want. In our Belgian services we even do not hold a collection in the service. But what we notice today is that nobody thinks they should provide some financial or other help. So it our the same people who have to provide for everything and do all the work (because often others forget that there is a lot of administration with an ecclesia and with preaching.)
In case there are paid pastors, as in most Christian denominations, and paid spiritual leaders (as in all the recognised mosques) they should be present for their believers and surely should work for their flock. Those who do not try to bring in new converts are not doing their job properly, but they shall notice their church shall diminish as well, by those who die and get to old or sick to come. When those pastors are also boring and do not bring interesting lectures than there is really something wrong, because they should have time enough to work at their lectures.
But we must say as in our community, having not one paid elder in the ecclesia and very limited funds to keep the ecclesia (all the worldly costs) makes it not always easy to run the ecclesia or ‘church’ and to do proper parish work.
hello christodephians
I guess what matters most is that the sheep and their pastors are in agreement, and that they act with a good and sincere heart.
What I was trying to point out is that if sheep mature, they should be pastoring new sheep, and accepting more pastoral responsibilities of their own.
pastors are mainly for new, immature sheep, that need to be taught. Sheep that have been in the Word for 10-30 years should move on, and have their own ministry, instead of being spoon fed by their old pastor. But there will always be sheep that will never mature, and need constant guidance.
Most churches are based on a 1-2 x a week service. This should not require a full time commitment, and a salary. I get messages within the hour after I sit with the Word. Sermons should not take that long to prepare, unless one is trying to use their mind instead of their spirit to find inspiration.
I admire those that want to be in full time ministry, so I should not detract from their efforts. I am full time myself. But I do this without pay. I guess I am too idealistic. the apostles worked for a living and ministered as well. They accepted free will offerings but never took a salary. I want to be the same way.
there should be a way that individuals who are truly called of God can manage to be self supporting and still minister to others. it would be a shame for them to neglect a calling because they felt they were too dependent upon offerings and salaries.
I have a few questions…first, have you ever single-handed run an entire service for a group of 50-100 people including preparing music, bulletins, song sheets, volunteers, Sunday school lessons, etc.? If so, have you done so 2-3 times per week every month of the year? You pastor is doing much of the preparation even when he’s gone I might add.
Pastors also make sure the church is presentable. Do you do the cleaning when volunteers forget (which happens much more often than you think), get the coffee going (because, again, someone forgot or didn’t mention they would be gone), get the video or audio equipment set up so that the elderly or sick can still feel a part of the flock, etc, etc?
During the week, there are meetings with various individuals at various times for various reasons. If you have no need of a pastor, are you taking on your share? There are hospital visits (members tend to be working when people need them most), home visits (for those who are ill or recovering), nursing home visits, rehab visits, etc. In a larger city, there is a half hour drive time (at least), a 30-60 minute visit and then a half hour drive home. How often are you willing to commit this kind of time? And how many people would you be willing to help out each week?
What about counseling? There are so many hurting people in this world and they need consistent biblical counseling in order to grow in the Lord. People often don’t know how to stop drinking spiritual milk. They just keep slurping away until someone comes along and provides the tools and it often takes one on one interaction. Yes. In an ideal world, the flock would take on all of these responsibilities, but we live in such a broken world that our Father knew that we
would need a shepherd here on earth to keep from straying (he has provided many for his people throughout time).
I’ve seen our pastor take the time to get coffee for an HIV positive man traveling through town, a man who called because he needed to talk to someone. The pastor then took this man to the bus station where he purchased him a ticket so he could return to his family. Are you available to do that type of ministry? Any time of day? Most people do something like that once and then pat themselves on the back, but the pastor does it again, and again, and again.
This is just one example of so many. You see. Your employer, unless you happen to be self-employed and in little need of money to support you family, is not going to allow you to drop everything and help the sick, the needy, and the hopeless. That is what your pastor does for you (and much more) at any hour of the day. In my opinion, most pastors don’t get paid enough, but I’ve met very few who complain. They continue to press on because they have been called and they love the Lord despite the persecution by believers and nonbelievers alike and if we are following the Lord’s instructions, we will provide from them as a token of our love.
hi heather
that is a rare pastor…..the sheet music, et should be there from week to week, sunday school lessons come out of a book now, if you are a denomination.
the problem with all this activity is that much structure has been added to the church life, where in the time of the early apostles, none of this was done, and the church grew anyhow. modern day church makes things too complicated.
Jesus did not use song sheets and bulletins. he just talked to people.
the size group should not matter. one just opens one’s mouth and speaks.
most pastors do not do all this…..they have lots of volunteers to do all that, which is the way it should be. ministry is the job of all believers, not one person.
I have done many of those activities with a full time job….and I am retired now, on a small pension, which put me below the poverty level. the activities I used to do while working I just do more of now.
I will always respect anyone who is active each day helping others. I just hope this person realizes this was supposed to be a shared activity, not just one person’s burden.
if the burden is shared, then the work is less, and one can also focus on earning a living and supporting oneself and family, as one should do.
Jesus just talked to the people because he was the Word of God. We are not. We have to read, pray and meditate in ways that He did not have to. It’s also really dangerous to compare the role of the pastor to that of Jesus. He is the head of the church. He calls some to shepherd the flock, but we are not to compare them to Him even though we are all striving to be more like Jesus.
Even if a Sunday school book is used (there are few of high quality out there, mind you), there is prep work involved. I happen to teach an adult Sunday school class and depending upon the topic, it can take a few hours to prep since I want to be thoroughly prepared (words studies can add hours by themselves). Also, “getting a message” and preparing to share a message is not the same thing and involves vastly different techniques and preparatory work.
As for music, we are to give God our best which means spending the time to organize the music (for the service and after) which, believe me, takes more time that you’d imagine. I know because I’ve done it. Music also involves practice time which most pastors of small churches have to oversee. The thought and care that goes into such “simple” things is always greater than people realize.
As someone who has always been active in leadership and any task that is needed (cleaning, nursery, teaching, cooking, carpooling, babysitting, etc.), I’ve been able to work alongside some very amazing men and women of God and this is what I can share.
The majority of pastors work very diligently to draw others so that they might share their unique gifts with the entire body; yet, again and again, people refuse or drag their heels or try for a while and then fade despite constant encouragement and opportunities to grow. As a result, there are often moments when your pastor is filling a gap until someone else it prompted by the Holy Spirit to take it over.
Thank goodness for the small core of each church. They are the ones who love and support the pastor the most and they are the ones doing the majority of the work. They too try to pull others in and invest mightily in them, but it’s rare to see someone new step up for the long haul. Having “lots” of volunteers just isn’t the reality in most churches. We live in a very selfish time.
There is also an emotional tole that most people have no understanding of. That is why so many pastors burn out. I have heard people criticize for the most silly things – people who have no real understanding of what’s really going on in the church. People who elevate themselves and stand back in judgment of every action or inaction.
Finally, organization is essential. It’s insensitive to “wing it.” Planning shows a respect for people’s time. It shows a love for the Lord because you are willing to do your absolute best to glorify Him.
it sounds like your pastor is not very inspirational
if the word is in him then he can speak as Jesus spoke.
under the true anointing, all comes out spontaneously and in order.
Based on what I said, that’s quite a jump you made. Nope. The Holy Spirit speaks loud and clear convicting and challenging time and time again. Anointing is an act of consecration for office or religious service. Scripture does not imply that it is a magic potion.
the anointing is the power of God, and the presence of the holy spirit. it is available to everyone, not just those in office.
but anyhow, I am glad you are pleased with your pastor.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
I would like to add one thing if I may. In the early church, when they gave, they divided it equally amongue those/all who had aneed. Can you imagine todays pastors dividing up the offering in their mega Church and give it to those in their congreation who were in need???
Hi Hanna,
It is so good to have you here.
NO, I cannot imagine today’s pastors putting those in need first before their own salaries. I have had friends who were in need and were rejected for help, when there was plenty of money. I also had one friend who was in danger of being killed in another country, and the church would not sponsor him to save his life. I would have paid for everything. All they had to do is sign some papers, but they shunned us. They did not think he would “fit in.” Fortunately, for the young friend, he is still ok, but the dangers are increasing every day. He is in a bad place. God protects those that the church rejects.
I had one pastor tell me that today, the church is a business. Only certain selected individuals considered “qualified” get a salary. Everyone else is expected to do things for nothing. Expensive building projects are more important than the poor. I have been in need myself, after a long period of membership in the church (10 years) and they would not help me either. I was an abandoned mom with 2 kids. Church programs also take priority over the poor.
The attitude of “leadership” is that we are there to support them in their needs, but they are not there to support us. We give, they take…..
I would not say all churches are like this, but many are, and I ended up in them.
blessings
marianne
Marianne,
As I read your comments I do sense both heartache and compassion. The apostate church of today has broken many hearts of men and women of faith and we can but share compassion for these lost people who remain under the leadership of these false shepherds. The time has come however that we must echo the words of Yeshua that the blind will be led by the blind, for these share a common bond in their lack of understanding or their desire to read the Word. The Word of God is available to all yet because they have chosen fables over truth they will also reap what they have sown. The Apostles worked as was honorable to all men, not desiring to preach the gospel for gain, their reward was the souls of men and women born again with new desires and a need for a relationship with whom they worship. The Word of God was made flesh and dwelt among us…, to know whom we serve we must study the scriptures and take up our cross lest we be ashamed when we stand before him.
The fact remains that the Apostles warned that this time would come, this only stands to confirm that the return of the Lord draws near and the wickedness of man will increase. Sound doctrine that was once taught and considered a treasure has now been abandoned by many in exchange for fables, this is the product of paid preaching. The gospel would not have spread with a price tag, however, a price was indeed paid, the very lives of these great men and women were sacrificed willingly to reveal the hope that we now have within us. The wheat and the tares will soon be seperated, the wheat gathered in the storehouses of the Temple of God in Heaven, and the tares reserved unto fire to be burned as stubble in the pit of Hell. God is a God of Love yet he remains a very real God of Judgement.
Hi Rodney,
What you say is very true and sad. Jesus already paid the “admission price” to get in to hear the gospel. It cost him his life, so that the truth would be free to all, and now people make money off of his death.
God bless you
marianne
Wow, this article really hits home for me, & hits the nail on the head in many areas!
John (the first comment) has a few valid points…we don’t sow (in the natural) full-time, & though perhaps eveangelists may be called to that, I do believe that all believers should be serving God every moment of every day! But there seems to be few pastors that do this, let alone believers…
…& didn’t Jesus tell them to leave their nets, He was going to make them fishers of men? But that was the apostles, not necessarily everyone, of course…
…I wish this could be sent to every pastor of every church…I wonder how many would have ears to hear?
Prayerfully,
~Anastazia~
Hi Anastazia,
I was told by a pastor that the modern church is a business now. That there are expenses to be paid, like buildings and salaries. The same pastor also refused to help me rescue a persecuted christian child from a Muslim country, even though I was willing to pay for everything. I needed him in a christian school, and needed them to sign a student visa form. They would not do it because they did not think they could get the full tuition from me, because I had gotten laid off. They put their desire for money before the life of the child. That shows how twisted the church has been. It is all about themselves now. Money is spent on maintaining themselves, not helping others as much as they should. Of course, there are christian charities.
I am still laid off, but I sit here all day and help people for nothing. I put in more hours than a pastor would. I reject the idea that Jesus died a bloody, horrible death so that I could make a living off of it. Sharing the gospel is a commandment and a privilege. If we do this, God will provide for our needs. So far, He has been faithful to me. I have little, but I am ok.
blessings
marianne
To all:
I still think we need churches today. Look at our geography. We as humans have inhabited every major land mass on the planet(except Antartica, brrrr…). Spreading the Word has to take a new meaning now than it did during Paul’s time. I believe churches give those that are looking for answers a chance to find the truth. We have a small church(less than 250), but there are always new faces that show up and we have events that draw new people in. As long as they come to hear the Word one time, it is worth it because the seed has been planted. God does the work after this. The person has received witness. It is our responsibility as attendants to the church to serve witness, as well, to how Christians can be. That lost person might just come back.
I hate to put all pastors in one box, though, and say they are all materialistically driven. I enjoy having my pastor at our church. He has a lot on his shoulders and I’m almost sure he goes without time off quite a bit. He still makes himself available to us, though. What Marianne’s pastor said was definitely not a good statement to make, especially for a pastor, right? There are, however, hardworking ministers that are called by God, who to me, are deserving of a “reward”.
My feeling is that if any wrong-doing is going on in any church, God will handle it. We just have to have patience. As for ourselves, when we go to church, let us look at ourselves and do what we have to do to make sure we are prepared to be in God’s presence. Forget about everybody else (including the pastor). And most important: STICK TO YOUR BIBLE!!!
God’s peace,
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Many pastors do not fit the biblical description, but I am glad your does. Churches are needed, like you say, for the newly saved. They have to go somewhere to learn the Word of God, and the correct interpretation.
blessings
marianne
very good post, I agree with a lot you’ve said,,lots of the money they get and the building funds, would buy lots of food for the hungry, clothe the poor and shelter the homeless, and one other thing I am wondering about too,, the Paid Godpel singers,, that charge for people to hear them sing about God. just entertainers, not really worshiping,, and nice clothes, Jewelery, and fine homes.. I will not pay to go and hear them anymore…I believe God will bless someone that sings from their heart,like David did with Pslams… It has all gotten out of hand, just a business,, God will bless you more in a run down shack,being poor , singing at the top of your voice,really praising him…
Hi Deb,
Thank you. Somehow, money is a sign of approval from god now for many people. They think that God is sending them money for being obedient, but it is just them, charging money to bless people. This is why we cannot win anyone to Christ. Unbelievers are smart, and they see it is all about the money. We need to change this.
blessings
marianne
I believe that the scriptures are quite clear on the subject. In the new testament church the tithes and offering were brought in and laid at the feet of the apostles. Then they were distributed to all according to their need, even to the point that all needs were met (see Acts 2:45 & Acts 4:34-35). It is therefore clear that the pastor like other saints are due only the amount it takes to satisfy their need. Example: If I am a pastor and have a good job that supplies my needs outside the church, then I have no right to a salary of excess at the expense of others in the church who have a need. Quite simple.
Dear Gary,
if you reread the verses you gave me, you will notice that
1. “Tithes and offerings” were not mentioned. This was a one time event. You can only sell your house once, if you give away the money. As good Jews, they paid tithes at the Temple in Jerusalem. That is the ONLY place the tithes were to go. You need to understand what the tithe is(food-wheat corn, oil), where it is given(Temple), and who benefits from it (the person who brings it – they eat it, and share some of the food with the priest – who can only eat so much anyhow, or he would blow up- and the poor). It was brought once a year, not every week.
2. It was a one time – or at best occasional offering – it did not say that the apostles used any of it at all, but they distributed it among those present. How many pastors do you see do that? Usually people give, and get nothing back. How many people in your church does the tithes and offerings support as they need it? If you say none, that would make sense, because the members are taught that the money is for the “church” and the pastor, but not them, so they do not bother to ask for their share. How many people do you allow to come up and help themselves to what they need from the collection basket?
Just because they laid what they had at the apostles feet, does not mean the apostles kept the money for themselves, and what they wanted to spend the money on.
3. the apostles did not earn a salary from what was offered. Everyone was expected to work and support himself. Even Paul refused a salary.
I am constantly amazed at pastors who know nothing about how the tithe really worked. I wish they would start teaching the truth in seminary.
But of course, if they did, then no one would have a salary, and they would go out of business. FYI – the gospel is not a business. It is a calling.
Take a look at these posts, for the biblical (not man made) version of tithes and offerings.
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/108/
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/tithing-judaism/
hope it helps.
blessings
marianne
Shaom Marianne,
I am aggree with your opinion but my question is “Do yo know where I am able to find the church or congregations without talking about money”?
Every churches today (all over the world) always talk about offering and 10 %, because they have to pay the Pastor.
One of my friend become a pastor because his bussiness was slowly and he talked to me “now I want to be a pastor, because it is good for my family”.
Thanks for your website.
GBU
David
Hi david,
Forget finding a church. We are in the last days. Wherever you find a congregation, you will find a pastor that wants to be paid. There is fellowship locally, in home fellowships, look for community events in your area. The only pastor you need is Jesus.!!!!
I more or less stumbled upon this thread and I have to say that I am deeply grieved to hear of the obvious pain that far to many have suffered. Man is infinitely flawed and thus, so is the church; however, I urge you to have compassion for those who have wronged you in the past and for those who are certain to wrong you in the future. If you are expecting perfection in the pulpit, you will certainly be disappointed, but there is hope…
I must say that I personally have yet to meet a pastor who chose the dedicate his life to the ministry of Jesus Christ so he could have a lucrative career. Every pastor that I know (and I do know MANY) was called to the ministry. Our Father in heaven drew them near and asked them to help win souls (be a vessel), disciple new believers, and send them out to win more souls on a full time basis (no outside job). I know far too many men of character, men doing the will of God, to believe all that is being said here is the absolute norm.
These same men have sacrificed a great deal. Most have moved away from the comfort and support of family and turned down lucrative careers. They often live on very little. Still, they are generous with, yes, their money and their time. They give SO much time. These are not the men that you see on television begging for your money. These are men of God seeking the Lord’s will day by day.
Could these men do what they do and work another job full time? Absolutely not. They couldn’t continually answer phone calls in the middle of the night. They could not visit people in the hospital (They often spend time with not only their own congregants, but also with the members from a other congregations and such requests or favors are many.). They could not drop everything to counsel someone who is considering divorce or someone who is in financial trouble (The churches I know DO help.). They could not spend all night, with the cancer patient who was just given a grave diagnosis (true scenarios here). Crises simply do not stick to the 9-5 work schedule.
Believe me. Many, oh so many pastors earn their salaries. The hours tend to be terrible, the complaints many, the breaks few. Many do not get health insurance, housing allowances, bonuses, or any of the other things that you might expect.
So, why do they stick around? As you would hope, they do it for the Lord.
If these are not the men leading your particular church, I urge you to find a fellowship of believers trying to live out the life that God’s Word has laid out for us. Where you find a loving, unified group, you find a great leader, like the disciples, like the apostles. Some men are truly sent.
Hello Heather,
I appreciate your comments, and your respect for your pastor. I am glad to hear you are happy where you are, and you admire his dedication. I acknowledge your sincerity.
However, I have never met a pastor that you describe, and I have been in the church my entire life (over 50 years). I have visited many churches in my city, and state, and they are all the same. I have traveled to different states for meetings, and they are the same too.
What you described is not the norm. Every church is based on money, and people are plagued weekly for it. The church is a business now, and the pastor is the CEO. Money goes for salaries, and building costs, and there is really nothing left for the poor. Needy members are not helped. They are expected to pay tithes, since if they don’t, God will curse them. You cannot be a member of a church unless you pay tithes and offerings. The church is not there for you. You are there for the church. You cannot belong there without paying money.
There is paid staff, which are the only recognized ministers. Then there are all the free workers, who do not get paid, since they are not “called” like the ministers are.
It is an oppressive atmosphere. I cannot enter any church without an offering plate pushed under my nose. I have asked for help for others, and was rejected. They have other purposes for the money, like paying themselves.
If it was, our country’s morals would not be going down the drain, and we would still be a strong Christian nation.
Instead, we are a nation in sin, with ineffective pastors, whose congregations just sit there, week after week, and are not prepared, or willing, to share the gospel.
People hate Christians in this nation, not because we are Christians, but because we do not represent the real Jesus to them.
While pastors do not go into ministry for money, they are all well paid, with benefits, and they know that going in.
The church is a business now. That is why it is coming under judgment.
This website ministry is a full time effort. I am here almost 24 / 7. I am here about 80 hours a week – from about 5 am to 10 pm or later.
I never ask for money. I do not get paid. I give up a salary to be here for others.
To me, Jesus died for me a bloody death, tortured on the cross for my sins. How can I make money off his death? I have done nothing for the salvation of the world – only he has. I do not deserve to get paid.
I hope you can see my point. This is to in no way lessen the credit given your pastor for his ministerial efforts. I give him the credit he deserves.
I’m sorry you have had this experience, but I have been in the church for 35 years, and what you describe has NOT been my experience, so I have to respectfully disagree. To make a blanket statement about churches and pastors is so dangerous and belittling to those who are truly working and seeking God’s will in every decision that is made. As I said before, churches are always going to be flawed, people are flawed. To expect a pastor to BE Jesus rather than to strive for His likeness places man on a pedestal that God did not create for him. I too have attended many churches, in different states, in an effort to find a proper place of worship. In my journey, I have found churches that have the feel that you talk of, but I have always been able to find a church that is earnestly seeking and living out God’s plan. Perfectly? Of course not. Expecting perfection will always lead to disappointment. We are called to love and forgive.
Is the offering plate passed in my church? Of course it is. Without it, people would not have a full time pastor who is available 24/7 and I mean 24/7. I respect and appreciate the work that you do here and your dedication to it; however, pstoring is unlike any other position in the church. The severe attacks from Satan are only evidence that they have great potential in furthering God’s kingdom.
Others help and minister too, however, it is at their leisure. They can often say, well, I have something going on or I have to work or I just can’t. Pastors seldom have such freedom. They tend to live in a constant state of crisis because they are responding to YOUR crisis in an effort to bring comfort and wisdom. I do not know anyone in the church that has such grave responsibility (and he is accountable to God for the flock) and is subject to such constant scrutiny. Not only is he constantly judged, but also his family, as if they all are supposed to be Jesus.
Benefits? Well, if you are part of certain groups, you get benefits; however, the pastors that I speak of do not belong to such groups and do NOT get any benefits. They barely get a paycheck. Lumping them all together, again, is demeaning to those who do not belong to this order.
The rest of the money goes back to to the congregation and the things that they approve. It pays for the building (if there is one), for utilities, for missionaries, for congregants in need. If you want to assemble together with other believers as we are called to do, chances are you will need to pay some kind of rent or fee for the building in which you meet. The collective helps with this. No one is esteemed higher than the other. No awards or special recognition is given for exceptional giving. No one is badgered for giving a small gift. Giving is between you and God, so it is not for anyone to judge.
Currently, our church of 20 supports 5 missionaries. Yes. Five. They are sent $100 each week to allow them to share the gospel where God has sent them. This is not something that the pastor mandated. We have had the privilege of meeting each of these missionaries and were prompted to give. To be able to do so is a great miracle because most of our congregants are of modest means.
We also participate in the community, have a donation box for the womens’ shelter, and have helped out families on a number of occasions. More than once, during this economic crisis, people have come into the church in need. We have filled tanks of gas, provided lunch, directed them to a larger church’s food bank, and paid utility bills. These are things that many churches do. All you need to do is kindly talk to you pastor. You may discover that so much more is being done than you had imagined.
Our church was led to care for the pastor and his family just as the other were led to provide for the apostles. Paul was a tent maker, but we have no indication of just how many tents he made in a year or exactly what percentage of his profits helped sustain him. How much was provided by the churches in which he preached? Paul was a missionary. Paul had no family. The issue of money is touched on, but there is no specific formula to follow.
We need to view our pastors as home missionaries because that is what they are. They were sent, just as Paul was because we are a sinful nation, because people need to hear the word of God. We are all called to share the gospel message; however, we get little done when we don’t have a good leader. The disciples were the leaders of the new church and they established leadership before they moved on. Then they appointed individuals to carry out their teaching and training.
When one views the church as a profit driven enterprise, I can understand how a person might be bitter about pastor’s salary. There are others, however, who view a salary as a means of caring for someone they love, someone who gives of themselves in a moment’s notice. They provide support so that the pastor can do the work that they ask him to do. Is that so terrible? A pastor is a servant just like you or me; yet he has a greater responsibility. Oh, so great. That is why so many churches are closing doors. People are fickle and it wears a man out.
If any of your readers are irate over the issue of pastor salaries, I urge them to examine their hearts. Are you upset about the money or that one person who wronged you? Is forgiveness needed? Do you view your money as God’s or do are you micromanaging? When we give a gift to someone, we don’t cling to that money. We view it as gone. Instead of obsessing over money, why don’t we pray over it as we give. I pray that each and every penny is used as God would intend it to be used. Whether my money helps buy groceries for the pastor or toilet bowl cleaner for the church bathrooms, I praise God.
HI Heather,
If your church needs your pastor 24/7, then this indicates that the church is full of immature people who cannot solve their own problems. This means the pastor is not equiping the saints, like he is supposed to do.
Mature sheep are trained and are helping others, not bothering one man. Mature sheep do not need a pastor. A pastor is only supposed to train new converts.
Also, a pastor is not a levite, so he is not entitled to the tithe. This is a business decision of the church. It has no biblical basis.
The church was originally established for fellowship, and the saints helping one another, because they were mature. New converts were quickly trained and sent out to evangelize. So the sheep were busier than the pastor. This is the way it is supposed to be. The sheep were full time, as much, or greater, than the pastor at that time. The job of ministry was not a single calling, while most just showed up on weekends. Since the sheep are trained now to think that it is the pastor’s job to do everything, the church is a failure to this society. But this is business. If the sheep mature and go out on their own, there will be no one to pay the pastor. So in stead, the sheep just show up on Sunday, and let the pastor do their job, since this is the way they are trained.
If your pastor is a home missionary as well, then how many salvation each week does he bring in?
Churches are closing doors because they are going out of business. It sounds like you have a big enough church, if it supports 5 missionaries. People are not obsessing over money. The pastors are. This is a weekly pursuit by the church….people are supposed to give of their free will, not have baskets passed constantly in front of them, with sermons coaxing them into it.
My money belongs to God and the poor. What is left over, I try to use to pay bills. I do not collect money from people who need me. I use my own money.
How much does your pastor get paid? If he makes more than the poorest person in the church, he gets too much. I am guessing he gets paid at least $70-80,000 a year…maybe as much or more than $100,000.
Hello Marianne,
I have been fortunate to have some time at my disposal this weekend, but I’m afraid this will have to be my last post on this matter. I appreciate the discourse.
Still, I have to disagree. Read 1 Corinthians 9:14 in context. Actually, read all of chapter 9. It addresses and refutes the very subject matter seen in this thread. Paul agrees with Galations 6:6, that pastors should be paid for their labor. He did not accept payment at Corinth because they were really struggling with the issue. He wanted to prove his intentions, prove his worth in an effort to minister and win them to Christ first. At the church in Ephesus, however, he DID accept payment. In fact, they paid him very well.
According to Acts 2:42, there are three main purposes or activities of the church. The church is to teach, provide a place for believers to fellowship, observe the Lord’s supper, and pray. Teaching indicates that the believers are not necessarily mature and the immaturity, as you mentioned, is not found just in new converts.
No one person constantly calls upon the pastor, but when you have even a small congregation, there is always someone in need. It may be as simple as the loss of a job which prompts a phone call of love and support. Is this not what we are called to do? When you mentioned people “bothering one man,” I had to smile for it reminded me of the son of God. What an honor it is for a pastor to be allowed to experience a little taste of His amazing ministry here on earth. Some believers are excellent at responding to the needs of the congregation while others are too young in their faith or too much in pain themselves to respond. I’m glad that people like yourself are willing to step in. We have many such individuals in our church as well.
Mature sheep DO need a pastor. A pastor is an elder, so his duties include peacemaking (Acts 15:1-2), praying and teaching (James 5:14 & Acts 6:2-4), watching out for the church in humility (1 Peter 5:1-4), and watching out for the spiritual life of the flock (Hebrews 13:17). This is a large, complex task. Taking all this into account, it is obvious that pastoral duties extend beyond just training new converts.
Also, if the church was so perfectly mature, why did Paul have to reprimand so often? We have his words of both encouragement and correction because the church still needed guidance after he left. There were issues that they were not able to wade through, conflicts they had trouble resolving without a more experienced and mature believer.
You asked how many people are led to Christ by my pastor each week. I know that my pastor intentionally goes out into the community to meet people, gets together with them, and shares the gospel with them. I don’t know of an exact number because he may rejoice in the addition of a new believer, but he is not caught up in numbers. How many would be sufficient? How quickly would they have to be converted to be viewed as a “success”? The work here is great and arduous. We live in a nation with many hardened hearts. It is said that it is the toughest mission field of all. I have seen people come to Christ quickly while others have submitted more slowly. Thankfully, heaven rejoices just the same.
As for a pastor not being a Levite, that is a moot point since the new testament church is not the same thing as the temple. The Lord our God tore the veil and does not dwell there any longer. We can quibble about tithes, offerings, or whatever, but the fact remains that we are to support our pastors. Whether or not you give 10% is up to you and your understanding of God’s directive, whether it is for the Israelites or the Gentiles or both. Our pastor does not dwell on percentages or certain numbers. In fact, our church does not make any requirements in this area. Our church functions within its means and if the money isn’t there, it isn’t there. In case you were wondering, you can become a member by professing in Jesus Christ and being baptized (does not have to be done at our church).
Oh. And as for an exact salary…try less than half of your lowest guess. This family of four is eligible for food stamps and state medical aid. Not only do they do NOT accept it, but they also give generously to the church and the community. This is not an exception to the rule. Like I said in my initial post, I know MANY pastors like this. I wish you knew them too.
Hebrews 13:17
HI Heather,
I wish you and your church well.
I still maintain that occasional offerings is not the same as the regular collection of tithes.
1Cor 9:14 was not referring to pastors, but to everyone who preaches the gospel. In today’s world, the congregation is excluded, and only “anointed” elders with a license are allowed to preach. The reward for preaching the gospel is saved souls.
Your pastor’s salary is not consistent with what you say he does with his money. I would need to be convinced with a tax form that he makes less than $35,000 a year. But, since the church agrees and supports him in his ministry, they like him and appreciate him, then people are happy in your church, and that is what counts.
I wish you blessings, provision, and security in the times ahead for this nation.
Oh, yes. This account is 100% accurate. It is only possible through the grace of our Lord and Savior. Do you doubt what He can do? This salary and less is quite common in the midwest. I know because I live here and I have seen the budget of our church and I have given the pastor his checks. Isn’t it amazing what the Lord can do.
Hi Heather,
The Lord can do a lot with a little. I live on $800/month with 2 kids, and no public help.
I forgot to mention that yes. 1 Cor 9:14 is referring to pastors. The verse prior refers to the Jewish priesthood. Thus, it is drawing a comparison and noting that the clergy too should be paid.
I think there are many types of “Babylon” mentioned in the Bible, and we need to ferret out what each one means. There is one we are warned to come out of, in the end of days. This is because “she” has become a whore. The original Babylon was not a she, so this requires discernment to understand who “she” is. Many believe she is the Catholic Church, and I partly agree.
But we would be remiss if we did not assess what goes on in our modern Protestant churches, as well. To do this, perhaps we might look at the original Babylon to see why God judged them.
Babylon was ruled by a man named Nimrod. He was called, “A mighty hunter before the Lord.” While this probably meant he hunted game, we soon see he also hunted men in a different way. He caused them to build a tower, among other things. This established a “home base,” to gather around under him, instead of being nomadic and filling the earth. God showed His dispeasure in this by scattering them.
I see a parallel in this to our present churches, Protestant and non-denominational included. Whether the pastors realize it ornot, they arecmpeting for the largest gatherings. Their churches have become entertainment centers. The Gospel is watered down to become acceptable to all.
Jesus told us to count the cost of entering the Kingdom. I have not heard a sermon on this in my decades of watching altar calls. During a sermon, the pastor may make a joke of how the devil will attack a new believer, but the laughter at the joke will diminish the seriousness of the subject.
Is it possible that where we are told to “Come out of her my people” (Rev 18) is a message to us? Have our churches become a whore, a Babylon? We get saved, and in the process, we probably join a church. Since it is already operating, we assume it is blessed by God, and join in the activities and fellowship.
We see the good things the church is doing, but do we discern the motives the pastor has? Motives he/she might not even be aware of. Is this the church Paul described? We might think that since these are modern times and it requires different messages, that what we see is proper. But is it? Are we willing to look deeper and see we have missed the message of Paul?
This is serious, as it is about our souls and rewards. What will we say when we stand at judgment, if we find out we have missed the mark? DavWms
I agree with what has been said. I was in a big church, trying to tithe but as a single mother (with a disable child) could not afford to, and there were other issues. Is anyone else afraid to speak honestly to these misguided leaders. I want to but alot of people at my former church are rather defensive.
It says in the Bible to talk to brothers privately, should we go and say something or just dust ourselves off and leave
Hi mj
You can try to talk to them, but you have to realize that admitting any of this will destroy their entire entitlement system.
If they agree, they have to give up their pay check, and get a job, like everyone else.
They have to give up everything they spend the money on, and go back to bible ways.
You can try, but you’d better bring people with you that agree with you, because you will get a lecture that you are robbing God (which is not true).
MJ,
If your pastor has truly erred (as all humans are prone to do from time to time), humbly go to him and ask to discuss it in private. Ask questions. Gently, and kindly, ask for biblical backing. This is the way that we are called to confront one another whenever we have a conflict (Matt. 18:15). When a person walks in the door with a haughty attitude, defenses automatically go up, so pray before your meeting so that you might have a clean heart (Psa. 51:10). After speaking with him, examine any scripture noted, pray over it, and if you find God leading you to pursue the issue further, then take another person with you (not a gang or an army – Matt. 18:16). Pray after the second meeting as well and if you are so led, bring it before the church leadership for consideration (Matt. 18:17). This does not mean that you should take it to the entire church since that might cause an unnecessary disruption or division. The leadership should be allowed to deal with the matter. After all, if the biblical model is followed, they are appointed because of spiritual maturity and hopefully, they will exhibit such behavior. I realize that Matthew 18 doesn’t say to pray, but we are continually called to bathe all matters in prayer, to pray continually. Thus, one would be praying earnestly during such a conflict (1 Thess. 5:17; Eph. 6:18).
As for the specific issue that you mention, there is ample scripture to support caring for our pastors (Feel free to read my other posts.). Paul made a different decision for himself at a specific time, for a specific purpose. In 1 Corinthians 9, he is evidently responding to questions or criticism regarding his work status. He defends his choice, but is also adamant about the right of all kinds of laborers to be paid (“Who ever goes to war at his own expense?…” v. 7). Note that in verse 12, he says “Nevertheless,” meaning, he supports all the arguments stated previously. In verse 14, he indicates that “…those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.” This means that if you preach the gospel, you should receive compensation for your labor. He previously referenced those that “minister the holy things” which indicates that he is referring to pastors and not all believers. This verse lines up with all that he just mentioned. Some people interpret verse 14 as meaning that pastors should not receive compensation, but that simply doesn’t follow Paul’s overall argument. We need to read the entire thought and not just one line.
I would encourage you to talk to your pastor about your financial situation and how you are feeling since you seem to be quite burdened by this issue and your financial situation. Perhaps he can help. You may be surprised to find that the expectations regarding your tithe are, well, not completely true. Satan often deceives us in these areas and it is not unusual to feel guilt and condemnation where there is none. My intention is not to make you feel embarrassed or to judge or to even think that I know you even a little. It’s just that I, unfortunately, have been the victim of deception in this area and I tend to think I’m not alone. I used to scrutinize, judge, and even envy the way that even a modestly paid pastor would spend their money like I was the Gestapo or something. When I examined my heart, I realized that I was in error. I was trying to control. It was ME who was in love with money – the money that I had supposedly given God. I was shocked when I realized this, that I could have very little money and still be more or less in love with it, making it my idol. Yuck! Currently, I am a homeschooling mom trying to help manage my husband’s small income day by day, so it’s not my financial status that has changed. It was my heart that was changed and for me, it was no small feat! I am SO thankful for a loving, forgiving God and I pray that others do not fall into this same pit.
God bless you in your journey of faith.
I actually did ask fo financial help, not a lot, the cost of a good pair of shoes, and they said “At this time we can’t do it” This church has 40million profit so….Look I don’t care really. At first I was a bit angry but then I left, told my group leader why and went to a smaller church. And do you know what happended I have been receiving financial blessings from other sources, so much so that presently I am able to actually go out for dinner (cheap dinner) haven’t done that in months. So I just kept praying and telling God what Im worried about and presently I have been blessed not just with money either.
Praise God for some relief from your overwhelming burden. May you continue to be blessed inside and out!
Being good stewards of God’s provision is a huge undertaking for any church. It is disappointing, but not surprising, that not all churches are keeping a biblical perspective. Like we are shown with King David, sin can get a foothold in even the most devoted of hearts. May you find ways to use your experiences, good and bad, to bless others.
There are good pastors teachers at mega-churches too, lets not forget that, desiring to do God’s Word but it seems the main leaders of these churches are infallible, put on pedastils, seem to more rich than the rest of us. Not that Im envious, I was brought up with money and we were Christians but my parents weren’t “flashy” about it all the time, drove cheap cars etc and gave to others, tried to help the ccommunity through charities. My father lost most of his money through a property development and a shonky lawyer but we are not rich now but rich in other ways, very close family, God fearing.
Anway I thought I might write anon to my former church, in love, I kind of feel sorry for people going off track with God.
I think there needs to be a balance in everything some of the views in this post are extreme. Paul was not married. Should that pastor not be able to take care of his children. Should he give all to the poor while his own kids starve? That is why a lot of pastors children rebell because of lack of balance. Yes there will ALLWAYS be people in need. If Jesus when He was on the earth could not meet the need of every poor person He who came in contact with His ministry will pastors now be able to. I think yopu major on minor trying to set up laws of man and doctrines that are of men and are not in the bible though done in good faith can be a source of bondage. What you should be praying is for your pastors simply this: that they hear from the Lord and be given the grace to obey. To be led by the spirit. Let them do what God is telling them to do not what anyone thinks they should do . We are to be led by the spirit not doctrines of men. The Lord may require you give today, receive tomorrow? I am not God neither the Holy Spirit the leader are you?
dear Oma
The bible says that any man who will not support his family is like an infidel. So, if he needs money for them, he should get a job, like everyone else in the church.
Everyone has a certain gift. This is to minister on behalf of God, not to benefit oneself. Why should someone who pastors get paid, when others don’t? Turning a calling of pastor into a business with a salary is more of a doctrine of man, than giving of oneself freely.
Offerings should be for the poor. The poor should not be made to give offerings to support those who do not work.
you said:
The bible says that Jesus met the need of everyone who came to him.
Modern pastors and churches do not do this, although some do to some extent.
Oma,
You seem to have a good understanding of the character of our Father in heaven. Perhaps you are already familiar with the passage, but if not, check out 1 Corinthians 9. It is very clear on this matter. Also, feel free to read my above postings in May of last year to find even more passages to support providing for our pastors. In my experience, those who are the most bitter about pastor salaries have been deeply hurt by someone in the church. This grieves my heart, especially when I know of so many men (along with their entire families) who are seeking God’s will day by day, sacrificing all to serve Him. It is so dangerous to make overgeneralizations about any position in God’s family and we MUST back up all our conclusions with scripture, not just a little piece, but the entire thought shared in the Word. Over and over again, our Lord provided for those he appointed. Think of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Noah, Paul, Timothy, James, and on and on. Paul’s writings are consistent with this idea and practice. Our God is not a God of confusion. He is not inconsistent. Thank you for supporting your pastor and especially, for praying for him. I have many, many friends in the ministry who appreciate that above all else.
I am certainly not against giving as much as possible to church. What I am against is the pressure put on people if they don’t give as much as the pastor thinks they should give. Most Bible translations say that you should give as you prosper. If you are in low-income and have to struggle just to purchase food and keep your home – you are not prospering!
The United States (as far as I know) is the only country (maybe Canada) who teaches a 10% giving. I know this, because I have contacted churches in Germany, Australia, Denmark, etc. and they don’t even talk about a 10% amount. This is an Old Testament law and I don’t believe it is for today.
When the Pastor makes %35,000 plus housing allowance, plus social security, plus retirement, plus medical – it totals at about $73,000. I you only make $1,000 or less a month – you can not be expected to go without food and make sure the pastor can go out and eat, take ski vacations and travel to other countries. I think that people should give what God lays on their heart to give and what they can afford and not put pressure on people. When they do – they take away the worship that an individual receives as he gives willingly and cheerfully of what he/she feels they can. God nudges hearts, but I believe he nudges them accordingly as to what He knows they have.
I always write a check, but I think from now on, I will give in cash. We have 2 people who count the money, and I really don’t feel they should know who gives what!
hi maxine
The beginning salary for a pastor of a small church is about $40,000. The mean salary for a pastor in the USA is about $85,000.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_CS21000010.html
With the bonuses and benefits added in, it is about $128,000.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_salaryresults.asp?hdSearchByOption=0&hdSearchByOption=0&hdKeyword=Pastor&hdJobCategory=CS01&hdZipCode=&hdStateMetro=&hdGeoLocation=U.S.%20National%20Averages&hdJobCode=CS21000010&hdJobTitle=Pastor&hdCurrentTab=&hdNarrowDesc=Clergy&joblevelcode=
Something to think about when you give your next offering.
Marianne, no pastor I know makes this kind of money. In fact, many pastors I know have second jobs just to make ends meet (driving school buses, teaching music lessons, selling vacuum cleaners, working overnights at warehouses). The rest make enough to take care of needs, but little more. In interpreting these findings, you need to consider that “average” factors in mega churches. You have to be so careful with statistics, especially those generated by worldly sources. In so many, many cases, there are no benefits, there is no health insurance, there is no retirement. I personally know people who have given up lucrative careers, even entire companies, to serve, struggling to start churches in a nation bent on serving self, and this is how we treat them? Do we get a bad taste in our mouth just because the pastor’s wife buys a new pair of shoes (even though she probably found them on sale for $10)? Do we think the pastor should only buy used cars (even though he many have been saving up for years)? I mean where does it end? How would you feel if someone treated you in this same manner, scrutinizing every purchase, every decision you made as if you were suppose to clear every personal purchase through some committee first? Where in scripture does it require us to police our shepherds in this way? My heart breaks because all I hear is bitterness.
If a person is looking to find a reason not to tithe, he will not have to look very far. Excuses are everywhere. I’m not telling anyone how much to give. That’s between you and God, but if I were to guess, I would say that the most giving people I know are giving 15 or 20% and the vast majority of these cases, the incomes are very modest. And guess what? They are the most joyful people I know and God continues to pour blessings upon them for not their dollar amount, but for their attitude in giving, for their faith. We all need to ask God what He would have us do and then do it. If we are confident and secure in our relationship with Him, giving reminders at church won’t make us feel guilty. Giving a tithe will represent a time of sharing rather than a time of grief. We will have the assurance that we are right with our Father and that’s what matters above all else.
Let’s form our attitudes based on scripture and not what a statistic has to say or what some other country is or isn’t doing. We are to care for our pastors and each church needs to determine how best to do that. Don’t let this issue tear your congregation apart.
Dear Heather,
The pastors here (in NC) do make that kind of money, and live well, and they have small churches.
Being a pastor is not a full time job. They only work on Sundays, and maybe one other day to prepare, although they might be “around” or “available” in some way. Since the word should be spontaneous out of anyone full of the word, it should not take long to prepare a sermon.
I think it is appropriate that they have a regular job during the week. Paul of Tarsus did. He made tents. We have to remember that none of the apostles, who really were full time, received any salary at all.
Occasionally, people would make an offering, but no one collected tithes in the early church. Any tithes went to the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed. People ATE their tithes at the temple, as ordained by God. Once destroyed, the tithes stopped, because the only place allowed to bring tithes was the temple.
Today the tithe is a business practice used to pay the pastor and a mortgage on the church. But it is not a biblical use of the tithe.
I hope this makes sense. I think what any individual church wants to do is up to them, but usually it is not the congregation’s decision, but a rule that is already in place when they join. If they agree to this rule, then there is no argument about the tithe there, and they are free to do what they want.
If you want to pay your pastor, then that is fine with me.
Marianne,
As with any job, what you see from the outside is far from the reality of the position. You can only know or speak with total authority once you’ve been in their shoes (and even then, there are so many variables). I used to teach in the public schools and absolutely loved it. Now, I teach my children at home. You’d think that I would have the easiest job ever, but the reality is that even though I have fewer students (but more preps) it’s the toughest job I’ve ever had, but I keep at it because it’s what God has called me to do. I have sweet, well-behaved, amazing kids, but the complexity of my position is far greater than I ever could have imagined.
A serious pastor takes his messages seriously and takes the time to prepare them. Jesus could “go off the cuff” because He was God. Paul had extensive Biblical training and continued to study and to write, write and write some more. We have no real indication of how much time he spent making those tents and since he was supporting only himself, he needed far less income than a man with a wife and family. It’s really apples and oranges since there’s no way to fairly compare that culture with the demands of ours. That’s why we need to lean on scripture.
To know God’s heart, you need to study His word and that takes time and plenty of prayer. Unfortunately, today’s seminaries pale in comparison to past seminaries, so it is important for pastors to continue their studies, seeking wisdom and clarity that can only come from God. I don’t want my pastor to “go off the cuff.” I want him to be well read. I want him to have really prayed over the words that he is sharing with us.
If you want to see someone grow to be a spiritual giant, take a young man who feels called to pastor (and is earnestly seeking the Lord), and watch God mold and shape him in ways you never thought possible. I have seen this over and over again. In fact, there is more than one young man in our church right now who God is clearly preparing for ministry. His is moving in our little congregation more than I’ve seen in most churches (and we have less than 30 members).
Our pastor has spent a lot of time with these young men, discipling, answering question after question as he points them to the truth in God’s word. As they have grown, they have fewer and fewer questions because they now have the tools and confidence to find the truth in God’s word by themselves. It is SO exciting to see them reaching out to others and to hear their burden for the lost! This is the model of the new testament church. And as we’ve discussed before, Paul is abundantly clear that we should provide for the men that God has called (1 Cor. 9).
Without the pastor taking the time to set up lunch meetings with the men close to their work places, this growth would have come much more slowly. The other scenario would involve fewer meetings or many evening meetings at the expense of the pastor’s family (What kind of message does this sent to the pastor’s children?). All this would be impossible with a full-time, outside job. I’ve seen ministries severely crippled when the pastor is pulled away like that.
Jesus did not leave us to our own wanderings, he provided shepherds to lead and guide. To not properly care for them is the most unloving thing I can think of.
As for the tithes, well, money was collected. Period. You can call it whatever you want. Giving is a part of Christian life (1 Cor. 16:1-2; 2 Cor. 9:7) and it’s quite often in the form of money. Thus, the many discussions about money in the Bible. Like I said in my last note, give whatever is put on your heart, but please ask God about it. Don’t look to your own heart. We know that one cannot be trusted (Jeremiah 17:9).
We need to stick to what we know, what scripture does tell us. Counting the references to offerings is unlikely what God intended us to do. He told us, so we are to do it. In John 21:25, we are told, “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” Surely, there were many more healings, wonderful lessons, and yes, love offerings.
Hi heather
I will always respect your opinion and views. I guess we see this differently. As long as people are satisfied with their decision, that is what counts.
As a former full-time Children’s Pastor, let me share my observations. I thought I was “called” into ministry so I did what many people do and attended seminary. The problem is–is that every follower of Christ is called into ministy and the lie is that only pastors do ministry. I certainly did not become a pastor for the money because the salary was not great–in fact we ran budget deficits as a household for the approximately 6 yrs that I was a pastor relying on a dwindling savings account instead. May I add that the Senior Pastor was well-paid however. Notwithstanding the finances, I also felt uncomfortable with people addressing me as “pastor” because it only reinforced the division between clergy and laity. We say we believe in the Priesthood of all Belivers but the praxis of what we we hold to be true is noticeably missing in most congregations. This led met to conclude that the greatest spectator sport on Sundays is not NFL football but our Sunday worship sevices where programming is the main event and even if the Holy Spirit left the building, hardly anyone would notice. (However, if Elvis left the building, people would have noticed; yuck,yuck). Tithes went into the building fund and it was much easier for the church to accept your money then to get it back if you or others had needs. I have yet to see a church that gives money back to their own congregants on a regular basis. After being in the pastorate for those few years, it did not make sense to me anymore so I left the traditional church and have not been back since. The church did not mirror what I saw in the NT. I did not see 1 Cor 14:26 take place but saw only a few people in paid positions exercise their spiritual gifts while the rest of the congregation watched. Fortunately, I had a previous career that I could go back to. Most pastors even if they realize that something is wrong with the church system, have no other occupation to rely on because they have no experience or education doing anything else.
hi stuart,
Thanks for your testimony and comment. I am always saddened when I hear of problems people have been through. I hope all is well with you now. God bless you.
The enemy has conspired against this great God fearing nation and the nations of the earth:
-There is none to stand in the gap and intercede for the people of the Lord. All seek their own gain. People roam over the mountains like sheep without a Sheppard. But the Lord God of Hosts will not allow the mischief of the evil one.
-The people relied on Corporate America for an unfailing check and have not prepared for these times. Corporate America became greedy, therefore transferring all the work the people had to places where they can profit not a 100% but over a 1000% if possible. They used the people to extract the sketches of what it took to build this great nation. Your children engineered the trains, the factories, the mining machines. Yet all has been taken, and the people are left to be slaves to greed and be consumed.
-The Government needs complimentary support we can provide. Governance is countered by selfish interests, legal manipulation and corruption. Blindly and unwilling they have been used in the exodus of Jobs, manufacturing and wealth to greener pastures.
Where there is no vision the people perish. The country suffers for lack of knowledge to decipher the times. Where is the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Leadership of the Church?
-Church arise encourage the people. The state does not want to stand with you but you can stand for the People. Provide Manufacturing skills, help reopen factories, restore trade with developing countries. Quit criticizing the Government; use the little support they provide grow the country. “Occupy till I come” said the Lord Jesus Christ, engage for God’s sake.
Watch what you listen in the News-media; Despite our advanced education, there has never been a people so misinformed as ours. Distortion of facts and control of knowledge as this is worst than Communist propaganda in the Cold War era.
-Help the people with raw material procurement, import and exporting. The world still buys and sells, or else China would not still be in business, we alone willow in politics and speculative financial demagogies. You can still afford homes, if only there were jobs and home values were not manipulated. China prizes our products, Africa, Asia and Mediterranea still need what we make, and Europe wants a competitor.
-Gather your strength, resources and knowledge. For the sake of the body of Christ, the Land and the People we will provide engineers, researchers and developers in any field there is. Engage for sake of the people. Contact us: vpinc@mail.com
I am a preacher/Apostle and I love this posting! Thank God! Its about time! I’ve been preaching the gospel since October 3,1993 and I don’t get paid and don’t want to be paid. I want the body to be blessed not burdened! If money should be taken up it should be given to needy in the assembly. the church should feed the church, not the foodstamps Government! I love this! Hallelujah! The churches now a days are just business owned by the Pastors. The offerings seem to be there money that they control. Like the government creating debt and saying we’re the slaves that have to pay it back with our lives, or property or both. See UNITED STATES (dba corporation). I was an ordained deacon before I was called to preach, and I’ve dealt with church money,offerings,tithes,the treasury on the board of directors ect ever since 1992. I know money and the churches.. ? I wish or desire that the LORD would come quickly or the anti christ would come quickly so that the true church will be weeded out and all these church corporations, organizations,dba’s,assumed name certificates businessses that are called the work of God would be destroyed and the pure church Of Jesus Christ will remain standing and meeting in homes, and under trees, and in wonderful places all over America and the world. Hallelujah!
In regard to some big churches where people complain they are getting paid too much… say a church of 20,000 where the leader may earn $350k… no lets crank it and say 500k a year.
Now lets examine a small church pastor of 70 people who gets the usual $45k stipend (like where I used to belong too). Apart from the obvious amount of work and responsibility the first has over the second consider this…
Large church example costs each member = $25 a year
Small church example costs each member = $643 a year
Now whos complaining that the small church folk are getting ripped off? No one, because they don’t THINK about what happens in their little congregations actual outgoings.
To those that work and preach, fantastic. But I think your worth being paid, if you actually feed people who are constantly pulling on you to feed them more and more depth and get them motivated to go out and reach people. Frankly I can’t understand why pastors need to work a job unless their preaching is so bad that no one comes to hear them or they do a 20 minute sermon on a Sunday and no other work. How anyone can run a church of 400+ people and not be full time I don’t know. If it is a small church that has always been small then there is a glaring problem. Jesus said build my church, he didn’t say just maintain what someone else built. Talents should increase!
Thats why I have no problem with my Pastor who works long hours and ensures all the ministries are run correctly and who seeks God for new revelation for every service 2-3 times week.
hi kiwi
I have never heard a sermon series that was worth 500 K a year. It does not matter how large the church is, pastors get paid excessive salaries.
There are billions of people who have full time jobs, and they do not make that kind of salary. My last job was full time, and I did not make that much, and I am an educated person. I worked 12 hours a day.
If your pastor makes a rich mans salary, then he has gotten his reward already. A large salary is unnecessary, and wasteful. He is in it for the money. The test is, if you offered him 45K, would he still care about you?
He is not a pastor. he is a CEO. You do not have a church. You have a business.
Rev Marshall. Can I ask something. You, who wish Christ would come back early to fix things meet in a home or under trees, right?
I mean for you to be in a building makes you a hypocrite doesn’t it?
You are not an Apostle. Apostles build. What have you built that you didn’t inherit? I’m all ears.
Heather,
I went to a seminary (actually graduated as the student body president) and I know how the vast majority of my good friends feel about money…..it’s the number one issue! I have had several good friends turn down positions simply because they knew they could get a better salary at another church. The Bible says you cannot serve both God and mammon. As long as someone’s paycheck depends on their spirituality, it will ultimately dictate their faith. Yes, there are some genuine souls who serve God and get paid, but they just good people in a bad system. We wife ministers to local strippers and tells me that the club owners treat their girls with more respect than most employers, does their kindness justify the sex industry? No!
Also, their is no justification whatsoever for a church to only have a single pastor. Could you imagine a pastor sharing his salary and authority with another pastor?m (not his employees the youth pastor and music pastor) christ explicitly states that He alone is te head of the church; for a single man to claim to be the head of his local body of believers is blasphemy.
Rob,
It is a shame that so many leave seminary without a deep love for Jesus Christ and the call He has set before all believers. Youth and inexperience can make people say and do foolish things and we can only pray that these young people will turn away from those ideals and seek His will whatever that may be. The Bible talks about fools and the foolish again and again which just indicates the power of our sin nature. Also, young men are often fearful of being thought an infidel which is a very valid concern, bu one to keep in its proper perspective (1 Tim. 5:8).
Regardless of our observations and experiences, we need to test everything with the Word of God and that’s where I’ve tried to steer previous conversations. When someone talks about a pastor being the head of a body of believers, he is most certainly not implying that the pastor is replacing the headship of Christ (Col 1:18). If you read my notes from last March in their entirety, this is not at all what is being suggested. I may be wrong, but I think your concern is mainly one of semantics.
The justification for a body of believers having a pastor is a Biblical one. 1 Tim, 2 Tim, and Titus were written as an encouragement to overseers of the church and provides instruction in the organization of the church, church discipline, appointing elders, etc. (Titus 1:5; 1 Tim. !:3). For more Biblical evidence, see my entry from May 2009. Personally, I don’t envy those in these position at all (Acts 20:28; James 3:!). If you want to really get Satan’s attention, just become a soul-winning pastor. Yet, the knowledge that the heaven rejoices with each new soul keeps things in their proper perspective. Just imagine how many rewards believers will lay at the feet of Jesus one day!
Blessings,
Heather
If you have such a “biblical” standard for pastor and many people are “amen”ing to that, are those people “amen”ing to the same bible that tells them that “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”? Are the same people willing to share all they have with one another (Acts 2:44-45)?
hi Dennis
I am not sure if your question was directed to me or the person who left a comment above me.
In case it was directed to me, here is my response:
I provided scriptures for my view, so I would say I had a biblical foundation for what I said.
I have denied myself to follow the Lord, and I do share what I have with others. I sit here, 24 /7, and never ask for money, because I do it out of love for Jesus and the Word.
I have sacrificed a career to write bible studies, witness, and counsel people. The reward of souls is my reward. It is a labor of love.
God bless you.
Absolutely, Dennis. Our family has given up the comforts of family, money, convenience, a stable career, etc. to do what we do in the name of Jesus Christ. Thankfully the Lord, in His love and mercy, provides amply in the most amazing and unexpected ways (not in the world’s eyes, but that is not our filter).
We are constantly being conformed to the image of Christ which means we are by no means perfect, but we strive to learn and grow day by day. I am thankful for His guidance and daily instruction and am constantly humbled by the depth of His love for each and every one of us.
Right now, my children are doing memory work and it is so fitting – Romans 12:3.
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
I am nothing without the love of Jesus Christ, the one who saved me. I can do nothing, understand nothing, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit which He so graciously bestowed upon me the day I said “yes” to Him. May we all continue to allow Him to work in and through us as we strive to understand His teachings for a more abundant life.
Blessings,
Heather
I have two old lifelong friends that are or were raised and involved with the church up here in Toronto, Ontario. One has become woefully disillusioned with the church, having attended several, and having watched the “clutch” at the buck, the power plays and the “corporate mentality” often observed, relative to the ministers and leaders and those under them.
The other one is the pastor of a small church and sincere in his desire to lead others to the Lord. He and I have lunch about four times a year, and during those lunches he lets his hair down with me given I’m an old summer camp buddy and that we have many years and miles between us. His take on the matter is he himself has become both jaded and disillusioned. He has told me in confidence that “Head Office” has expectations of each “CEO” and that there are essentially quotas in place for church growth but all too often “church growth” seems more to be code speak for “profit”. If they don’t grow the churches adequately, they are literally left to sink. In fact, certain charismatic pastors have been carefully provided key placement in certain communities where it is felt their style will draw membership and “grow” the church in that area. “Ego” is enticed for such proposals and my friend has come out and told me of a few instances where one of these charismatic types tried to be a hero, suffered burn-out and have sought out a small congregation to work with, under the pretenses that the bigger game and closer ties to “Head Office” and its agenda were not what they originally envisioned when signing up for leadership. Having spent significant time in the corporate world, this all sounds extremely corporate to me.
Oh yeah, that summer camp I used to work at, it was a chain of ten camps run by evangelical television network up here in Ontario. We used to lead soul after soul to Christ at campfire back in the early to mid-80′s. Children from all walks of life. That evangelical television network up and decided to cast astray that chain of camps back in January, while in the meantime their network has added such programming as “Alf”, “Mad About You” and “Full House”. The location I attended lay dormant this past summer, with nary a young soul giving cause to Angels to sing and dance. All this after yet another former camp friend offered to run the place, leave her business and sell her home….but she was told she’d have to pay an amount that was essentially unreachable…..for property and buildings that were originally donated by Christians with a vision to see lost souls find salvation.
Yeah, we all got to eat, that is a reality. But the hard and fast reality is that we’ve allowed ourselves to be hijacked….in slow, comfortable motion. God help us all.
hi Michael
Yes, this is all very sad to hear. The kingdom of God was never about money or corporate power.
That is why I never ask for donations here.
When I think people are making money off the persecution, suffering and bloody death of Jesus, it makes me shutter.
His death was never meant to fiance peoples careers.
No wonder the world mocks us now.
We all have often seen good people lose their way and go down dark roads. People have been doing this from the very beginning – Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Saul, David, the Israelites over and over and over again. The list is long and there are certainly more, but for the Lord to share it all would take forever. We just get the highlights.
In 1 Timothy 6:10, we are told that the “Love of money is the root of all evil.” Having money or using money was not the problem, for the disciples or apostles were provided for in a variety of ways. It’s more a matter of the heart. One can have no money and love money – long to have it too, resent those who have it, etc.
Throughout church history, we have seen great men rally the church and then watched in dismay as subsequent leadership led the people down an unbiblical path. Through the reading of Paul’s letters, we learn that it was happening even in his day. We might think, “How is that possible considering all the eyewitness accounts?” The reality is that Satan is a crafty fellow. He will twist God’s word in the minds of even the seemingly most devout of believers and use the desires of our hearts to work against the Lord. He will feed us lies about our mission, about our worth and capabilities.
So, no matter what we see. No matter how the world has failed us, we must turn to the Lord for wisdom and strength. When we look to the world for encouragement, we will be disappointed again and again. There will be ample examples of abuse and hurt. That doesn’t mean His plan is a flawed one. We need to continue to pray above all else that these people might turn from sin, that they might again do the work of God. As for us, we must press on in spite of all. It’s exhausting to say the least, but He will give us the strength to continue.
good advice. god bless you.
You know, reading through these posts, what saddens me most, Marianne, is that you somehow don’t seem to want to acknowledge that there are pastors in this country, though they may be few, who truly serve the Lord “full time” and do it for almost nothing. You simply cannot put the kind of blanket statements that you write on all pastors. Don’t get me wrong, I agree completely with you that the majority of pastors in this nation get paid too much and do not use the money the way that God would want them to use it. There is surely much corruption in the church, and I would be the first to speak against it. However, just to give you an example, the pastor of my church in Denver, Colorado, lives on very humble means. And he is truly serving the Lord “full time”. On the days that he is not preaching or praying with people in church, he is out on the streets in downtown and on college campuses preaching to people and pleading with them to repent and turn to Christ, and is in a very real sense persecuted for it. But that is what God has called him to do. I myself know that God has called me to be a pastor and preach His Word, and God has used this pastor immensely in my life, and countless lives of others. Trust me, he is not being paid much, but what he is being paid allows him to have two small meals a day and a tiny one-bedroom apartment for him and his wife, in the worst part of town that you can think of. Personally, knowing that my life will be devoted to preaching God’s Word and ministering to people, I would be happy doing that even if i have to sleep out on the street, and just eat a meal of rice once a day. So please, I just beg you, to not think that all pastors or churches in this country are the same. Yes, many are selfish, but there are also those who are fully given to what the Lord has called them to, which it would not be possible for them to do if they had another full time job like most people.
hi yonas
I accept the exception to the general pattern.
The post is not critical of good pastors who are in ministry to serve the Lord.
The post is not critical of good pastors who are in ministry to serve themselves.