Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?

Traditionally, the 7 hills of the book of Revelation are assigned to Rome. So is this the only option?

NO

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills:

Amman, Jordan

Asunción, Paraguay

Bath, England

Cincinnati, OH United States

Edinburgh, Scotland

Istanbul, Turkey

Jerusalem, Israel

Kampala, Uganda

Lisbon, Portugal

Moscow, Russia

Nevada City, United States

Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opyš), Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín

Providence, Rhode Island, built on Christian Hill, College Hill, Constitution Hill, Federal Hill, Smith Hill, Tockwotten Hill, and Weybosset Hill.

Rome, Italy

Saint-Etienne, France

Seattle, United States

Sheffield, England

Tirumala, India

Worcester, Massachusetts, United States

Plovdiv, Bulgaria

ceuta , morocco

Recall there are 10 toes in the king’s statue in the book of Daniel.

But 10+ 1 = 11 happens,……then 11-3 = 8, as the 11th conquers 3, so the numbers change as the prophecy progresses.

The woman in Revelation 17 is riding on the beast. She is NOT the beast. …….The Beast has 10 horns.

It is the woman that sits on the 7 hills, not the beast.

The beast does not sit there on 7 hills, just the woman. The beast and the woman are 2 different things.

The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Islam), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (Hashemite kingdom), which is a kingdom, the ancient Grecian empire….now Muslim territory. The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. See The Fouth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist of Islam – the 12th Imam Mahdi Click here for more

Notes about Rome’s 7 seven hills…..why it cannot be Rome…..

The now-famous Vatican Hill (Latin Collis Vaticanus) is northwest of the Tiber and is not one of the Seven Hills of Rome. Likewise, the Pincian Hill (Latin Mons Pincius), to the north, and the Janiculum Hill (Latin Ianiculum), to the west, are not counted among the traditional Seven Hills.

Of the Seven Hills of current Rome, five (Aventine, Caelian, Esquiline, Quirinal and Viminal hills) are populated with monuments, buildings, and parks. The Capitoline now hosts the Municipality of Rome, and the Palatine Hill is an archaeological area. Note that the Vatican hill is not one of the “seven hills” of Rome, as it is located on the opposite side of the river Tiber. So the association of the Roman papacy as the woman is not a strong argument.

City of Amman, which was built on 7 hills like Rome, started its modern history in 1878. Amman is located in a hilly area of north-western Jordan. The city was originally built on seven hills, but it now spans over an area of nineteen hills (each known as a jabal or “mountain”). The main areas of Amman gain their names from the hills and mountains on whose slopes they lie.


The city of Constantinople (now Istanbul) was built on seven hills, after the city of Rome.

Istanbul ,one of the great historical cities of the world, is the only city in the world located upon two continents with one arm reaching out to Asia and the other arm to Europe. The Old City and the New City are separated by the Golden Horn, an inlet of the Bosphorus. It is a natural channel seven km long and is connected by two bridges, the Galata Bridge and Atatürk Bridge.

Istanbul was known as the city on the seven hills. Whether Constantine the Great was actually aware of the fact that the new city was, founded on seven hills remains uncertain.

The seven hills, all located in the area within the walls, first appeared when the valleys of the Golden Horn and the Bosphorus were opened up during the Secondary and Tertiary periods. In the Ottoman, as in the earlier Byzantine period, each hill was surmounted by monumental religious buildings.

The first hill on which the ancient city of Byzantium was founded, begins from Seraglio Point and extends over the whole area containing Hagia Sophia, the Sultan Ahmet Mosque and Topkapi Palace.

On the second hill are to be found the Nuruosmaniye Mosque, Grand Bazaar and cemberlitas. The second hill is divided from the first by a fairly deep valley running from Babiali on the east Eminonu.

The third hill is now occupied by the main buildings of Istanbul University, the Mosque of Beyazit to the south and the Mosque and Complex of Suleymaniye to the north. The southern slopes of the hill descend to Kumkapi and Langa.

The fourth hill on which stood the Church of the Holy Aposties and, subsequently, the Mosque of Mehmet the Conqueror, slopes down rather steeply to the Golden Horn on the north and, rather more gently, to Aksaray on the south.

On the fifth hill we find the Mosque of Sultan Selim. The fifth and the sixth hills are separated by the valley running down on the west to Balat on the shore of the Golden Horn.

On the sixth hill are to be found the districts of Edirnekapi and Ayvansaray Its gentle slopes run out beyond the line of the defense walls.

The seventh hill extends from Aksaray to the city defense walls and the Marmara. It is a broad hill with three summits producing a triangle with apices at Topkapi, Aksaray, and Yedikule.

Istanbul (Constantinople) is located in the golden horn of turkey.

Turkey is the geographical head of the beast. (Babylon is the heart.) (See post on 4th beast) It has a horn on its head, and is called the Golden Horn. Istanbul is the city of the woman. It is part of both the Roman and Grecian empires.

Recall that the antichrist is sometimes called the “little horn.” (Daniel 8.) A real geographical location, known as the Golden Horn, is identified with, and located at, the city on 7 hills, Istanbul, which is in Turkey, which is the head of the geographical map of the beast (see post about the 4th beast). This must be more than coincidence.

The woman (city) in Revelation 17 also sits on many waters. Istanbul “sits” on or near the Sea of Marmara, the Golden Horn Rver, the Bosphorus Strait, the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea, the sea of Crete, and the Mediteranean Sea.

Istanbul (Constantinople) also has a history of pagan, Christian and Muslim rule. Constantinople fell to the jihaidists in 1453, ending the Byzantine rule, and Christian saints have been persecuted ever since by Islam. The woman (represents Islam) is described as “drunk with the blood of the saints.”

The woman (city) will persecute the Jews and believers in the end times. She controls the beast by riding it.

Constantinople as a center for Islam is one possibility, for the reasons given above. What do you think?


1,097 Responses to “Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?”

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    • I think the woman who sits on the 7 hills may be jerusalem herself (yes i know im about too get lynched). After all it is the whore of Babylon. Read Ezekial, 16 in particular, it is end time stuff but the wroth is getting poured out on Jerusalem heavily!! Do a word search on http://www.biblegateway.com for the word whore (KJV). It’s talking about Jerusalem more often than not.
      Im open too other ideas but im gonna need v strong evidence against it

      • Just too elaborate a bit JAR frequently refers through his prophets to israel as his wife. who goes a whoring after other gods (of stone, gold silver brass)
        Another side note for my fellow christian brothers and sisters. We must not be unequally yoked! Those of you who celebrate christmas please read Jeremiah 10:1-5 this is a description of Ashtaroth (the christmas tree). You can find more mentions of Ashtaroth too.
        Also to those who observe the feasts of JAR (not done by our calandar but by lunar cycles (passover will be on march 30th for 7 days) the end time will not come as a thief in the night becuase it falls on the feast of trumpets.
        God bless u

        • Jerusalem is one of the victims of the mother of harlots. Never does the text of the Apocalypse ter the seven Letters mention the Jews as aggressors, but men in general. Way more people follow the beast of islam than even have compassion on the People of GOD, Israel.

      • hi dave

        People do not get lynched here. :)

        Jerusalem right now has righteous people in it, but other countries want to divide it in half, and give half to the Palestinians.

        Around that time, or after, the Antichrist will show up and commit all his abominations.

        Israel was a whore at times in its past, but it is not really acting like that now. I think most nations could be described as whores now, so even if Israel had a fallen spiritual nature, it would not be alone.

        once the Antichrist invades and takes over Jerusalem, I can see how the description would change for the worst.

        • when u say righteous ppl who do u mean? Dont get me wrong i know i could be grafted out of the tree of life but israel doesnt let messianic jews into jerusalem. And the muslims @ the wailing wall dont even know what there prayer means. Ezekial 23 Samaria and Jerusalem do whore themself to Babylon. I dont know if its right. But i need scripture to refute it

          • hi dave

            The righteous there are sincere christians and faithful jews.

            The messianic Jew issue is a separate political topic, and has to do with aggressive proselytizing. I understand their zeal, but they just need to tone down their witnessing, so they actually attract people, rather than turn them off.

            I do not consider Muslims righteous because :
            (1) they have a different god/creator and
            (2) their behavior in Israel is not righteous.

            The more the Muslims take over Jerusalem, the more it will be degraded, spiritually and physically.

            • Marianne,

              I absolutely agree with you.

              Agressive proselytizing is not good, and folks
              should first check how good Christians they are
              themselves before talking to the Jews.

              Personally, I beleived in Jesus Christ through
              revelation of Holy Spirit after being 3 days in
              a coma. I even never met a Christian who tried
              to proselyte me, I grew up in Jewish Orthodox
              environment; I beleive that that’s how it will
              be with rest of the Jews…especially during the
              tribulation.

              I also should mention agressive anti-missionary
              Jews, like Tovia Singer, who I think is possesed
              by spirit of blindness, I even heard him many times
              distorting Torah and Talmud as long as it fitted
              his anti-Christian agenda, this here totally
              upset me:

              http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134008

              • Jews like Tovia Singer I’ve heard all about before how they don’t believe Jesus is the son of God nor Messiah because they would have got their 3rd Temple and the Romans would have been expelled etc… So nothing really new in attitudes over time.

                When we look at Jesus he had his fair share of people to deal with that tried to contradict and trick him. He also had people whom disliked him, whom were not just Roman’s but also some Jews as well, due to his extremely controversial nature.

                In John 8:1-11 it was Pharisees whom tried to trick him, in Matthew 26:57-26. 67 Caiaphas and other chief priests look for false evidence to frame Jesus and charge him with blasphemy then finally take him to Pilate. However this is not the first time Jesus has rubbed Caiaphas the wrong way.

              • Gavriel, I am interested in hearing more about your conversion to Christianity. Will you please elaborate more? Thank you.

      • Dave,
        Check with the list below to see what a woman in prophesy refers to. Your whore can refer to the actions of a real woman or a city or nation, that’s true. But in prophecy a woman is always a church so you must look for a church today that fits all the descriptions of both revelation and Daniel. The whore church is the same one mentioned in rev 13 – the blasphemous beast from which the image and the mark come from. Daniel 7 describes the beast of rev 13 coming from his fourth beast (empire) or Rome. Rome is the key. The Roman empire, the Holy Roman empire and the Roman catholic church. Beasts 4, 5 and 6 of revelation. Revived Rome (EU) is 7 and an upcoming revived Holy Roman Empire will be the 8th king, of the 7th. It all stays in Rome, no need to jump over to Jerusalem and besides, its not a church,

        Bible Prophecy Symbols
        Why cloak Bible prophecies in Symbols? And Jesus said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.” Luke 8:10. Many of the apocalyptic prophecies were given while the prophets were in a hostile foreign land. One reason God cloaked the prophecies in symbols was to protect the messages.

        Animals and their Parts
        • Horse = Strength and Power in Battle Job 39:19, Psalms 147:10, Proverbs 21:31
        • Dragon = Satan or his agency Isaiah 27:1; 30:6, Psalms 74:13-14, Revelation 12:7-9, Ezekiel 29:3, Jeremiah 51:34
        • Beast = Kingdom / government / political power Daniel 7:17, 23
        • Lamb = Jesus / sacrifice John 1:29, 1Corinthians 5:7
        • Lion = Jesus / Powerful King i.e. Babylon Revelation 5:4-9, Jeremiah 50:43-44, Daniel 7:4, 17, 23
        • Bear = Destructive Power / Medo Persia Proverbs 28:15, 2Kings 2:23-24, Daniel 7:5
        • Leopard = Greece Daniel 7:6
        • Serpent = Satan Revelation 12:9; 20:2
        • Tongue = Language / Speech Exodus 4:10
        • Wolf = Disguised Enemies Matthew 7:15
        • Dove = Holy Spirit Mark 1:10
        • Ram = Medo Persia Daniel 8:20
        • Goat = Greece Daniel 8:21
        • Horn = King or kingdom Daniel 7:24; 8:5, 21-22, Zechariah 1:18-19, Revelation 17:12
        • Wings = Speed / Protection / Deliverance Deuteronomy 28:49, Matthew 23:37

        Colors
        • White = Purity Revelation 12:9; 20:2
        • Blue = Law Numbers 15:38-39
        • Purple = Royalty Mark 15:17, Judges 8:26
        • Red/Scarlet = Sin/corruption Isaiah 1:18, Nahum 2:3, Revelation 17:1-4

        Metals, Elements, and Natural Objects
        • Gold = Pure Character Precious and Rare Isaiah 13:12
        • Silver = Pure Words & Understanding Proverbs 2:4; 3:13-14; 10:20; 25:11, Psalms 12:6
        • Brass, Tin, Iron, Lead, Silver dross = Impure Character Ezekiel 22:20-21
        • Water = Holy Spirit / Everlasting Life John 7:39; 4:14, Revelation 22:17, Ephesians 5:26
        • Waters = Inhabited area/people, nations Revelation 17:15
        • Fire = Holy Spirit Luke 3:16
        • Tree = Cross; People / Nation Deuteronomy 21:22-23, Psalms 92:12; 37:35
        • Seed = Descendents / Jesus Romans 9:8, Galatians 3:16
        • Fruit = Works / Actions Galatians 5:22
        • Fig Tree = A Nation that should bear fruit Luke 13:6-9
        • Vineyard = Church that should bear fruit Luke 20:9-16
        • Field = World Matthew 13:38, John 4:35
        • Harvest = End of World Matthew 13:39
        • Reapers = Angels Matthew 13:39
        • Thorns / Thorny Ground = Cares of this life Mark 4:18-19
        • Stars=Angels/messengers = Revelation 1:16, 20; 12:4, 7-9, Job 38:7
        • Jordan = death Romans 6:4, Deuteronomy 4:22
        • Mountains = Political or religio-political powers Isaiah 2:2-3, Jeremiah 17:3; 31:23; 51:24-25, Ezekiel 17:22-23, Daniel 2:35, 44-45
        • Rock = Jesus / truth 1Corinthians 10:4, Isaiah 8:13-14, Romans 9:33, Matthew 7:24
        • Sun = Jesus / the gospel Psalms 84:11, Malachi 4:2, Matthew 17:2, John 8:12; 9:5
        • Winds=Strife / commotion / “winds of war” Jeremiah 25:31-33, 49:36-37; 4:11-13, Zechariah 7:14

        Miscellaneous Objects
        • Lamp = Word of God Psalms 119:105
        • Oil = Holy Spirit Zechariah 4:2-6, Revelation 4:5
        • Sword = Word of God Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12
        • Bread = Word of God John 6:35, 51-52, 63
        • Wine=blood/covenant / doctrines Luke 5:37
        • Honey = happy life Ezekiel 20:6, Deuteronomy 8:8-9
        • Clothing = Character Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah 59:6
        • Crown = A Glorious Ruler or Rulership Proverbs 16:31, Isaiah 28:5, Isaiah 62:3
        • Ring = Authority Genesis 41:42-43, Esther 3:10-11
        • Angel = Messenger Daniel 8:16; 9:21, Luke 1:19, 26, Hebrews 1:14
        • Babylon = apostasy / confusion / rebellion Genesis 10:8-10; 11:6-9, Revelation 18:2-3; 17:1-5
        • Mark = Sign or seal of approval or disapproval Ezekiel 9:4, Romans 4:11, Revelation 13:17; 14:9-11; 7:2-3
        • Seal = Sign or mark of approval or disapproval Romans 4:11, Revelation 7:2-3
        • White Robes=Victory / righteousness Revelation 19:8; 3:5; 7:14
        • Jar / Vessel=Person Jeremiah 18:1-4, 2Corinthians 4:7
        • Time = 360 Day Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Daniel 11:13 margin
        • Times = 720 Days Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:6, 14; 13:5
        • Day = Literal year Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34
        • Trumpet = loud warning of God’s approach Exodus 19:16-17, Joshua 6:4-5

        Actions, Activities, and Physical States
        • Healing = Salvation Luke 5:23-24
        • Leprosy / Sickness = Sin Luke 5:23-24
        • Famine = Dearth of Truth Amos 8:11

        People and Body Parts
        • Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
        • Woman, Corrupt = Apostate church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4
        • Thief = Suddenness of Jesus’ coming 1Thessalonians 5:2-4, 2Peter 3:10
        • Hand = Deeds / Works / Actions Ecclesiastes 9:10, Isaiah 59:6
        • Forehead = Mind Deuteronomy 6:6-8, Romans 7:25, Ezekiel 3:8-9
        • Feet = Your Walk / Direction Genesis 19:2, Psalms 119:105
        • Eyes = Spiritual Discernment Matthew 13:10-17, 1John 2:11
        • Skin = Christ’s righteousness Exodus 12:5, 1Peter 1:19, Isaiah 1:4-6
        • Harlot = Apostate church/religion Isaiah 1:21-27, Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9
        • Heads = Major powers/rulers/governments Revelation 17:3, 9-10

        Hope this helps.

        • Wow. Impressive list brother. Did u compile it or find it? If so where?
          I would be careful with it tho incase u cast pearls b4 swine (which i pray im not)

        • A woman is not always a church. Paul used Hagar to represent not the church but the antithesis. There is one woman of GOD and the other is distinct from her.

        • You said the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church are the 4th, 5th and 6th BEASTS and the EU is the 7th, and the Revived Holy Roman Empire is the 8th. First of all, none of these are BEASTS. They are all HEADS of ONE Beast.
          Second, if the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church sitting on the Beast with seven heads, and the Holy Roman Empire and Catholic Church are two of those heads, then the Holy Roman and the Catholic Church are sitting on themselves and/or each other. Te Woman can’t be one of the heads.

      • Hi Dave, I too have come to the conclusion that the whore is Jerusalem and I can present a lot of scripture to support it. It may be difficult to accept but I think scripture supports it. Remember the woman was first mentioned in Rev 12:1 with the Red Dragon, she ran into the wilderness in verse 6 and verse 14. Now in Rev 17:3 John is carried to wilderness and there he finds the woman riding the scarlet beast (red dragon). This is the same woman who gave birth to the man child which is the Jewish nation: She has now become the mother of harlots.

      • Hi

        It is good to know that you are interested to know about one of the controversial issues in the bible.. but there is one important factor that you need to consider the most..salvation. What is important is you’re not here in this world when the truth is revealed – as to who really that woman is..as it’s already the tribulation period and children of God has raptured already to be with the Lord Jesus Christ.. thank you

      • Cannot be Jerusalem because Jerusalem has not persecuted nor killed the saints of God,when Rev, was told, it had been destroyed by Rome…and Rome [popes] have PROUDLY said she sits on 7 hills…Join the dots

      • I am researching this idea of Jerusalem being the city of 7 hills on which the woman sits…the city may not be Rome as traditionally thought of.

    • good article feel free to read my notes information another city on face book john beam i studied alot on istanbul alot more information there thank you for this post

    • In the book of Revelations it says,
      Revelation 17:10, “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

      Revelation 17:11, “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

      I am the only person who has ever figured out what this means!

      In June of 2004 i was watching the news and there were 5 x pres. who were all alive at that point in time. They were Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton. These are the 5 kings that the bible says are fallen in Rev. 17:10.

      Pres. George W. Bush was the 6th king that the bible refers to in the present tense. All 7 of these people (or kings) were alive at that point in time.

      I know now that Pres. Barack Obama is the 7th king that the bible says must continue a short space.

      In the book of Daniel 11:20 it says of the king just before the appearance of the anti-Christ (witch would make him the 7Th king spoken of in Rev. 17:10 since the anti-Christ is the 8Th king …

      King James Bible
      Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

      A raiser of taxes is a good description of Pres. Obama, sense he is by far the biggest tax raiser in american history.

      Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

      23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

      I think this means that the anti-Christ will probably not be elected into office. But will bypass the vice pres. some how through this small group of people who might be some insiders pulling some strings during a national emergency. But that’s just a guess.

      The angel Gabrial told me in Aug. of 1973 that Jimmy Carter was the anti-Christ and that he was going to divorce his wife.

      • pride much?

        “I am the only person who has ever figured out what this means!”

        and false prophet at all?

        “The angel Gabrial told me in Aug. of 1973 that Jimmy Carter was the anti-Christ and that he was going to divorce his wife.”

        yeah, right.

        dude, if Carter is going to divorce his wife, he’d better hop to it, and since he is…um…like 87 years old now….it’s pretty iffy that he is the “anti-christ”.

        you better check your “angels” and figure out who you are listening to.

        Just as an aside….if one was going to masquerade as Christ, doncha think that he will likely be Jewish looking, and about 30-33 years old? not a black man with sticking-out ears like Howdy-Doody.

        This “anti-christ” can’t be just the opposite of Christ, cause he won’t fool anyone, don’t you get it? He will have to deceive people into thinking that he is Jesus. Wake up and think, folks.

        • hi Daisy

          We get some colorful people here on the site. It comes with being an open public forum. I believe in freedom of speech, so everyone gets a chance. Once the AC comes on the scene, this will all change.
          god bless you.

    • has any one ever considered DUbai to be this new city (the new babalon). the most memiroble thing to me about babalon was the tower that was built so high that broke it down and defiled them in language. Recently they have completed building the tallest building in the world. Also the UAE (united Arabe emerates) has SEVEN emerates (maybe these are the hills). It also says that the beast comes from the water/ocean. i have been to dubai may times and can tell you that they love to build everything in the water. Look up the 3 PAlm islands and the world project. each are large enough to see from outer space individually. there are currently 22 nations inn the islam union. i believe that these countries will consolidate into only 10 afetr all these riots are finished. what do you think of that. also the new babalon has to has a ship port in it. Next to dubai is jebel ali that is the largest lord to be built from the water. there has to be a ship port to fulfill the proficy about the sailers loking at the port after the earthquake in its ruins.

    • first of all the the great city that sits upon many waters, or the whore “revelations ch 17 verse 15 ” says the waters: are peoples and multitudes and nations and different languages mostly likely not refering to seas or oceans becuase it says that clearly. Also its sits on 7 mountains so does rome italy but there are also many other citys that sit on 7 mountains or hills but not like rome, beacuse it fits the descrition such as it was deck with gold and pearls arrayed in purple and scarlet . but look inside rome the CAtholic church! Which people call the popes holy father or Most holy father i belive and only God the Father has the title. Again their are seven kings revelations says. not unto 1929 the lateran treaty was signed and basicly made the pope a King “Pius XI” now we are on the seventh pope the seventh king Benedict XVI thats if it is the Catholic church in rome itlay which i believe it is again because it fit the descpition. Whats interesting look up the next prophecy for the next pope. But what matters most that we fear God and keep his commandments for that is the whole duty of man. “Ecclesiastes ch 12 verse 13″ The Kingdom of God is near repent and sin no more convert .

      • Maybe, it is the 10 economic regions from the GATT Treaty. Three torn from it’s roots would give us 7. If seven economic regions ruled by 10 kings who give thier power to the beast for one hour is the GATT Treaty, then the Whore is the false New Age religion lead by the Universal Church, which states all religions can make it to Heaven.

        We see region 4 being formed in the middle east. Egypt, North Africa, and Libya has fallen. Syria appears to be next. Will Syria destroy it’self with BIO/CHEM weapons. The Bible reads Damascus will be a ruined heap.

        The beast my rule from Rome, but the New World Order sits on many waters. The Global Tower of Babel.

      • interesting where 7 popes = 7 kings

      • The prophecy for the next pope (according to St. Malachy) is that he will be the last pope and will reign during the great tribulation. Then the end will come and Rome will be destroyed.
        This fits Revelation perfectly. A revived Holy Roman Empire will be the 8th king – the one that will be hated and destroyed in the end. Babylon represents paganism in God’s church. God will destroy all that when he cleanses the churches before the true church becomes the bride of Christ. That is the underlying message of the Book of Revelation. No matter what you think Babylon might be, you have to believe that Jesus will not allow His church to break the commandments or to celebrate pagan holidays and practices. Keep that in mind when you try to interpret the Book of Revelation and it might throw it into a whole new light.
        Bless…

    • The woman does indeed represent the Roman church, Ask yourself what colours do the cardinals and priest wear? Which church persecuted Christians in the dark ages? The roman church is know for its wealth thus fitting the description in Rev 17:14. The following clip is a great insight.

    • Just my 2 cents.
      Rev. 2:12 And to the angel of the church of Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
      Rev. 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is.

      Bergama, Pergamos, and Istanbul, Turkey are all the same.

      However there is a woman, an evil woman, in Zechariah 5 who gets carried off to Shinar by two other women with wind under their wings.
      Zechariah 5:10 “Then said I to the angel that talked with me, whither do these bear the ephah? (the woman is inside the basket/ephah) 11 And he said to me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established and set there upon her own base.”

      Three world religions, 2 are good, 1 is evil and set on its own base. Earlier in that same chapter even her scroll is a curse. It’s very legalistic.

      If you back up to the previous chapter, Zech. 4:11+12 the olives and the candlesticks pour golden oil out of their golden pipes.

      “It’s not by might , not by power but by my spirit says the Lord.” Zech. 4:6

  2. Amazing article, thanks.

  3. Thank you for visiting.

  4. I have been doing an indepth study on this very thing! I just love confirmation. They only way I found your site was a quickie search on mosque on the seven hills. You are very much on target.

    You can contact me at my site and we can compare some notes I have some other good nuggets maybe we can swap some notes. Good to see someone else using discernment when it comes to the study. We are working on putting a presentation together about this subject and just what role Turkey is going to play.

    Keep Looking up

    Christine

  5. Hi Christine !

    Awesome ! A kindred spirit !

    what kind of notes do you have?

    God bless you
    marianne

  6. What is more important is the description of the Harlot who rides the beast. I suggest that everyone studies her attributes and you will soon come to the realization that she is the USA. Very disturbing. We need to pray and be ready. Also, don’t be fooled by the Pre-tribers. Te Church taught that we would go through the tribulation. It was not until the late 1800s that the idea of Pre-trib came into existance. This correlates with the time of the latter rain/hyper pentacostal/WoF movement. Follow the real Jesus and prepare.

    Kyle

    • Yes it could be with what we did to the Indians but she sits with a scarlet robe the Color red there is no other country who use red like the Pope and cardinals do

    • I agree, one should absolutely solidify their faith in Jesus Christ and perhaps rather than trying to interpret revelations simply accept that the Whore or Harlot or babylon will simply be the NWO and their mark of the beast (666) RFID Chips. It certainly appears that the USA is leading in the drive to have people accept the chip implants and will look to spread this globally. It was a pretty clear warning from Apostle John that all will be forced to accept the mark – all that reject Christ that is.

    • Not true, Kyle – ever heard of Ephraem the Syrian? (306-373 AD)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian

      He was a major theologian in the early Byzantine Eastern Church – his hyms & homilies are still used in the Greek Orthodox & Middle Eastern Nestorian Churches.

      He taught a pre-trib rapture! There is some dispute over whether Ephraem himself taught it, or a later disciple writing in his name, but even taking the latest date it shows there was a rapture theory at least as early as the 8th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem

      Also, Dr. John Gill taught the Rapture in his commentary on the New Testament, published in 1748, still far earlier than Ben Ezra in 1812, Edward Irving in 1816, Darby in 1820, or Margaret Macdonald in 1830, who are commonly supposed to have been the ones to first teach the Rapture theory, The fact is that many scriptures can be interpreted to teach the Rapture: Isaiah 26: 20-21, Jeremiah 30:71, Matthew 24:38-41, Luke 21:28 and 34-36, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 3:10, among others.

      No doubt Matthew 24: 30-31 does not refer to the Rapture, because it speaks of the angels gathering the elect after the Tribulation, but this doesn’t necessarily argue against the Rapture theory, because that theory teaches that many will be saved after the Rapture, and also that there are many Jews saved during the Tribulation, as well as the Jewish Witnesses – these can easily be the elect those verses refer to.

  7. Thank you Kyle for your input.

    This is one theory that is out there. I presented it because it has been the least presented, due to fear of Muslim retaliation. I have heard the USA, Rome, Islam, and even Jerusalem as the woman. I guess time will tell. Yes, we all need to pray, because when things climax, there will be trouble for everyone.

  8. What is important is the fact that in the 15 and 1600s this idea of Rome was popular. The reason was obvious. At that time the Catholic Church had such great power. Now however they couldn’t dictate authority on this planet anymore than the Daili Lahma or some Grand Mufti. They are a mere large organized religeon that’s all. But look at the picture of the woman that rides the beast and notice her attributes.

    Kyle

  9. Kyle,

    The women sits on 7 hills. How do you see USA fitting into this 7 hills? what in the USA would match this description? People usually think of NYC, or Washington DC, as representing the USA, but neither, that I know of, sits on 7 hills.

    marianne

  10. If the woman is not Rome then how do you interpret Daniel chapters 2 and 7? What is the fourth empire of Daniel chapters 2 and 7 (4 beasts) if it is not the Roman empire? Daniel chapter 8 gives us 2 (not 3) beasts and their identities : Medo-Persia and Greece. Those 2 beast-empires followed the Babylonian beast-empire (lion with eagles wings) which leaves just one beast. The fourth beast must represent the Roman empire which followed the Greek empire founded by Alexander. God set up His kingdom in the days of the ROMAN kings (Daniel 2:44; Mark 1:15). Daniel and Revelation go together. The capital of the fourth empire, the Roman empire, was Rome. The city that ruled the kings of the earth in the days of the apostle John was Rome. The man-child of Revelation chapter 12 who ascended into heaven was the Lord Jesus Christ so that tells us that the dragon (7 crowned heads) represents the Roman empire in its first form ruled by Caesar (Rome was dominant – 7 crowns on the seven hills) while the beast of chapter 13 (7 heads without crowns – Rome’s power has changed + the papacy, a horn unlike the other 10 horns, is not a true king – while the kings of Europe had crowns) represents the Holy Roman empire which followed after the Gothic invasions (the “sword” which gave a mortal wound to the “head” which represented Rome’s Caesar) which put an end to the old Roman empire (the Western portion of it which contained Rome). The legs and the feet (2 forms of the last empire) of the statue of Daniel chapter 2 are directly joined together (and not separated by a large air gap) which indicates continuity in time. I have PowerPoint files on my blog which deal with the MYSTERY of iniquity (by the way, how is Islam a MYSTERY to a believer? it is obvious iniquity to me because it denies the deity of Christ) and the identification of the son of perdition. The MYSTERY of iniquity must fit with MYSTERY Babylon. I encourage anyone with a noble Berean attitude (Acts 17:11) to meditate upon those things.
    In Christ Jesus,
    Marcel A.
    http://prophecytruth.wordpress.com

  11. Hi Marcel,

    Thank you for your comment.

    Remember the city (7 hills) and the beast are related. The beast is a mixed animal. Look at what animal types it is made of. That gives the hint as to which kingdom it is. Also look at revelation 13 to get a complete view.

    The beast is one for the end times, not for 2000 years ago. To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. I do not believe it is Rome, because the Papacy does not have the power it used to over governments.

    Maybe I should have provided a link to the “beast page.” I made a correction above to make it more clear. All debate is welcome. I just present my views, with the supporting documentation.

    I was just trying to break it down in smaller posts for easier reading.

    To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. See The Fouth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist of Islam – the 12th Imam Mahdi Click here for more
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-fouth-beast-of-daniel-and-revelation-the-antichrist/

    BTW, there is nothing mysterious about the Catholic church either.

    Let me know if this extra link clears things up.

    Maybe I am right. Maybe I am wrong.

    God bless you

    marianne

  12. Hello Marianne!
    I thank you for taking the time to look at my comment and to also respond. I hope that in my zeal to give what I believe is a right interpretation of Scripture that I will not offend you in any way. I thought I would first comment about the following statement you made:

    You wrote: “BTW, there is nothing mysterious about the Catholic church either.”

    Question : If Roman Catholicism isn’t mysterious according to you then why are so many so-called (Matthew 7:21) evangelical Christian leaders such as Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, J. I. Packer, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, Chuck Colson, George Bush, Paul Crouch, etc… and many others being fooled by it?

    The Roman Catholic Church is not a true Christian church. It promotes a false gospel and a false Christ who didn’t fulfill His mission of securing the salvation of His sheep (Hebrews 10:12,14) through their false, unbiblical and blasphemous doctrine of the repetitive sacrifice of the Mass. I am a former Roman Catholic. As a Catholic wrestling with Revelation chapter 17, I was led to pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5) in understanding the identity of the Whore and a few days later (3 days to be exact) it became clear to me that day that I was in the Whore church having thought all my life I was in the true Christian church. The realization led to my renouncing my Catholic faith and then searching for the Gospel and truly repenting of my sins by the grace of the Holy Spirit who opened my eyes. I then experienced a peace I had never felt before and things changed in my life. The more I have studied the symbolic language used in both the Old and New Testament, both inspired by the Holy Spirit, the more it has become obvious to me that the corrupt woman symbol (in contrast with the bride of Christ, a chaste woman) points to APOSTATE professing Christianity and not to atheism or Islam or any other ISM out there. If the pure woman of Revelation 19 represents the Church (true people of God; Invisible Church; Mystical Body of Christ) then what does a corrupt woman represent symbolically? Please read Isaiah chapter 1 and notice how the professing apostate people of God (Israel) represented by the city Jerusalem were associated with harlotly. Hosea, a contemporay of Isaiah, used the same symbolism. Isn’t it interesting that in Revelation chapter 18, verse 4, we see the term “MY PEOPLE” used in reference to a certain group within Mystery Babylon? Didn’t God in the Old Testament also call APOSTATE Israel MY PEOPLE (in the professing sense)?

    To understand the MYSTERY of INIQUITY – in other words, iniquity in the eyes of the elect which does not appear as iniquity to the non-elect – one must understand the characteristics of the son of perdition. In 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, the son of perdition is mentioned in connection with the mystery of iniquity. The two go together. The son of perdition is a term which only appears one other time in the New Testament. John chapter 17* written by the author of the Book of Revelation. In that chapter, Christ acting as the High PRIEST Mediator of His elect (intercessory prayer) called Judas Iscariot – a FALSE APOSTLE, FALSE CHRISTIAN and FALSE CHURCH LEADER – the “son of perdition”. That’s a major clue in understanding who the AntiChrist (other name for the son of perdition) is. AntiChrist would arise out of professing Christianity. Judas was a deceiver who called Christ “Master”. Judas was an apostate. Judas coveted money. Judas conspired against Christ with a CORRUPT PRIESTHOOD class who offered REPETITIVE SACRIFICES that could not take away sins. Judas was a false apostle. (The pope claims apostolic succession.) Judas fooled the other apostles for a time. He appeared pious. He preached the Gospel for a time. In the Scriptures, it is never recorded that Judas outwardly said anything bad about Christ. In fact, after betraying Christ, he called him innocent.

    * It’s very interesting to note that in an adjacent verse there appears the term “Holy Father”, a term used only once in all the New Testament and it refers to God the Father; it is just a coincidence that the Holy Spirit would have those two rare New Testament terms, “son of perdition” and “holy Father”, appearing very close together in adjacent verses? In the eyes of the non-elect, the pope is known as “holy father” but in reality each pope is “the son of perdition”

    How does the “son of perdition” fit in with Islam? The mystery of iniquity is mysterious because it appears Christian and pious (1st Timothy 4:1-3 gives us some characteristics of this false showy piety – imposed celibacy for church leaders and imposed asceticism – and these characteristics are associated with Roman Catholicism historically). John, the author of Revelation, wrote about antichrists in his first epistle : “…even now are there many antichrists… They (antichrists) WENT OUT FROM US (professing Christians), but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued WITH US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all OF US.” (1st John 2:18-19) That is a major clue which tells us that we are to look for the AntiChrist to come (or should I say the AntiChrist who has already come and has been around for centuries if the historic Baptist-Protestant view of AntiChrist is correct also shared by many Spirit-filled martyrs) amongst professing Christians. The antichrists that John mentioned in his first epistle were apostate Christians. Not Pagans. Not atheists. Not Buddhists. Apostate Christians.

    Now that being said I hope to reply to the rest in due time God willing.

    Take care!
    In Christ Jesus,
    Marcel Allain
    http://prophecytruth.wordpress.com

  13. Elecsoul

    Hey…I am so busy…hold on….you have a long post….!!!!!

    maybe I should give you your own page !! :)

    alternate views of ……who is the woman……

  14. Electsoul

    Most of Christianity is apostate now. So singling out the catholics as the ONLY Whore does not make sense. I understand that for a long time, the Catholic church controlled Europe, but that has changed. Europe is mostly atheist now.

    Yes, Israel was called a harlot, and so can the modern church. Babylon was also called a whore holding a cup, which matches the description in the old testament. (Jeremiah, I think.)

    mystery – fooling people – is not limited to just Christianity. – right now Islam is killing people and saying they come in peace, and people actually believe them. Think of the white horse in revelation. the rider comes to conquer, but says he comes in peace.

    son of perdition – judas….true…..but Jesus also called peter Satan, and to get behind him….anyone can be antichrist in spirit and Jesus said there would be many of them

    the antichrist is the beast

    the woman rides the beast, so they are connected. She rules over the beast, since that is what a rider does.

    the beast in daniel + revelation = ancient grecian empire ( + teeth of rome – turkey is also part of roman empire), which ends up in the middle east. Many think it is the revived roman because of daniel 2.

    But Daniel 7 and 9, and rev13 make it more clear. Daniel also says it is a kingdom, (not a democracy), which has a history of 7 kings, and the 8th is coming.

    The selucid empire matches this description and sends us back to the original Babylon. Babylon represented the empire, which is now modern Iraq, syria, lebanon, etc which are both ancient and modern enemies of ISrael.

    the catholic church has no control over the middle eastern muslim beast, but a Muslim city would, from that region.

    So i feel that rome as the city is an old interpretation, based on past, but not current history. the catholics do not have the power they used to have. many have left the church.

    the new force to be dealt with is islam, which is invading all the countries around the world, for conquest, but claim it is coming in peace.

    marianne

  15. I think you might be on to something here regarding Istanbul. However, I believe the Woman is the US for these reasons:

    She is called the “jewel of kingdoms”. (Is. 13:19)
    In her glory days, she “layed low the nations”. (Is. 14:12)
    She has “destroyed her land and killed her people”. (Is. 14:20)
    She is called “queen of kingdoms”. (Is. 47: 5)
    She will become the “least of the nations”. (Jer. 50:12)
    She has granaries. (Jer. 50:26)
    She has bulls. (Jer. 50:27)
    She has bodies of water. (Jer. 50:38)
    She is a land, not just a city. (Jer. 50:45)
    When she is captured, the whole earth will tremble. (Jer. 50:46)
    She has an army. (Jer. 51:3)
    She is surrounded by many waters. (Jer 51:13)
    She brings destruction throughout the whole earth. (Jer. 51:25)
    She has rivers and marshes. (Jer. 51:32)
    She is the boast of the whole earth. (Jer. 51: 41)
    She has towns. (Jer. 50:32, 51:3)
    She has had illicit affairs with the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:2)
    She is greatest among all people, multitudes, nations and languages. (Rev. 17:1, 15)
    She has power over the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:18)
    The merchants of the earth have become rich because of her excessive consumption. (Rev. 18:3, 15, 17)
    She considers herself the queen of the earth. (Rev. 18:7)
    The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn when she is destroyed because no one will buy their cargos anymore. (Rev. 18:11)
    She is considered the greatest “city” that ever was. (Rev. 18:17)
    Her “enchantment” led all nations astray. (Rev. 18:23)

    Some of these things do fit Islam and some of them don’t. However, they ALL fit the United States!

    • Sorry, but a woman in prophesy is always a church. The US is a kingdom (a beast) – not a church. Only the Holy Roman Empire was a church and an empire. So don’t worry, God will not destroy the US when he returns. He will destroy the pagan (Babylonian) influences in the Christian church(es) such as SUNday worship, idols (statues), Christmas and other pagan elements that have crept into Christianity today. The church will most likely return to the same state as it was when Christ left. Most of the rest is superfluous crap.

      • Who is the god of the Church. Recent discussion in Finland proves that the governing god is Mammon. Like everywhere in the world gays are lifted higher than anybody else and discussion has been whether gay couples should be blessed by the Church similarly like traditional marriage.
        One group started talking strongly against it. Prime speaker, former lesbian, became then born again and declared that with help of the Lord everybody can get rid of this sin. Gays and humanists got angry and more than 100000 people left the Church thus giving up tax payments. In Finland the state collects taxes for the Lutheran Church it being a state church.
        Money disappeared. Archbishop woke up. “This kind of group can never get any church money” He also stated that he supports similar marriage for gays and in a minimum church should bless such couples.
        The word of Mammon has replaced the Word of God (Romans chapter 1) and demands to bless the sin.
        The Church is not just some administrative organ on the top but the members of the church form the church.

        • Seppo
          That is the problem with mixing church and state. State religion always leads to corruption, your example shows how state corrupts religion, The catholic church showing how religion corrupts the state. It is only Jesus who can and will rule both justly and righteously. This is one of the reasons why my parents left Finland. The question you need to ask is how far will they compromise on their faith in the name of keeping their funding?

  16. And the US does sit on 7 hills in the sense that her culture is founded upon Greco-Roman model. For one example, the Greco-Romans believed:

    • Citizens should participate in government by voting, debating in public, making laws, serving on juries, and holding office.
    • The world has natural laws—patterns that can be discovered through reason and intellect, rather than superstition.
    • Democracy can be protected by having branches of government:
    a legislative branch to make laws, an executive branch to approve laws, a judicial branch to resolve legal disputes.
    • There should be written law.

  17. Hi Gina

    Well, the idea that the woman is the USA is definitely a popular view, with reasons like what you gave. Sometimes I will give an alternative view, to make people think. For example, if one view says the sky is red, with reasons, then I will say it is green, with reasons. (Notice I did not say the sky is blue! :) ) Then I let people think about both views. There is a lot in the Word of God to think about.

    Have a blessed day
    marianne

  18. HI–HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT THE NAMES OF THE MOSQUES ARE “MABNS”–ALMOST THE SAME AS NOSTRADAMUS’ “MABUS”? THE NAME OF THE NURUOSMANIYE MOSQUE MEANS “LIGHT OF USMAN” PER AOL–THE MISSING LETTER “U” !!!!! INTERESTING—

  19. Hi Weegie,

    Maybe MABUS is the first intiial and last name of the leader.

    Mohammed Abus, or M…ABUS….is the head of the PLO terrorist group now in Israel, now that Arafat is dead.

    He is also known as Abu Mazen and Muhammad Abbas. I am not sure which name is his real name.

    or maybe MABUS is a group of countries that bring forth the antichrist. Example:

    M = Malaysia
    A= Azerbaijan
    B = Bangladesh
    U = United Arab Emirates
    S = Saudi Arabia, or Syria

    I guess we will find out someday soon.

    blessings
    marianne

    • Where does it say we should raise Nostradamus to the level of Biblical prophet? Don’t sweat MABUS.

      • Well the interesting thing is that Nostradamus used a lot of Biblical writing and had his own phophetic beliefs of the 3rd World War as well

  20. Jesus was not crucified in Greece- Turkey but in Jerusalem.

  21. Hi Rodney,

    you said

    Jesus was not crucified in Greece- Turkey but in Jerusalem.

    Can you explain why you said that? The prophecy is about the woman that sits on 7 hills for the last days and how she relates to the anti Christ. What would the crucifixion of Jesus have to do with this? Is there somewhere that says the woman and the beast will be in Jerusalem, because Jesus was crucified there.?

    blessings
    marianne

  22. I think Gina is definitely right. Rev 17 and 18 is happening right before our eyes!!!! Why can’t we humble ourselves and look at ourselves before we point the finger at other nations? It seems SO clear to me that the Woman is the U.S. Think of the Statue of Liberty, riding on the Beast (the U.N. Headquarters). Sept 11, 2001 as well as Sept-Oct 2008.

    The ONLY way to solve the current economic crisis is to pronounce a Year of Jubilee as outlined in Leviticus. But the U.S. govt would never go for that. Why do we even have “In God we Trust” on our money? What hypocrisy! The Jubilee is meant for the purpose of what we are going through right now – so that we do not take advantage of one another. Yet we continue to do so. Shame!

  23. By the way, Washington DC has 7 hills. You would never find that on a google search, of course. Someone is HIDING that fact. But look at a google MAP of DC and count how many hills or “heights” there are within the ring road that defines the city!

    • I would like to see map Etc. real proof. I support your idea 100%
      Always point your finger at the Catholic and if a Spacecraft lands in the middle of the street blame the Catholic and tell lies to everyone to prove to them it is the Cathokic Church why look anywhere else.

      • hi Heidi

        Actually, this is NOT pointing to the Catholic Church.

        This is an argument against that, and a suggestion that it might actually be in Turkey.

    • Actually, I believe their are many possibilities. Sure they say America, but their so economically unstable. I was thinking more Russia since Putin wanted it to become again another super World Power and has his successor Dmitry Medvedev in whom shares his ideals. Another idea is what if the middle east suddnely put all their political country problems aside and became one Islamic united nations.

  24. Hi Girlparadox

    You hold a popular view. Maybe you are right. But

    1. how could washington ride the middle eastern beast unless it was also middle eastern? Will terrorists get elected here?

    2. I have google earth, and I cannot see any 7 hills. so where are the hills?

    I agree with going back to Jewish roots of the faith, but that will not be possible, since God is illegal in this country. All we can do is pray and give good witness now.

    I appreciate your heart for what is good. Just pray you can affect as many as possible before Jesus comes back.

    blessings
    marianne

  25. Dissillusioned soldiers come home from a war,
    Sarcastic friends tell them not to fight no more.
    As they argue through the day, all their words get in the way,
    Black and white, turning into shades of grey.

  26. Glenn

    Profound words in a short verse.

    blessings
    marianne

  27. I believe the woman sitting on the seven hills is a depiction of Rome. Traditionally, Rome was called the ‘city of the seven hills’ because of the seven hills that it was built on/ around. Also, a Roman coin has recently been found that was minted during the reign of Vespasian (69AD – 79AD). This coin has a depiction of Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. The early Christians living in this time period surely were aware of the current currency (and other things going on in their world at the time), so when they read John’s letter (the book of Revelation) they knew what God meant in this revelation: Rome is the bad guy because it was persecuting the baby church. The church that Jesus came to earth to establish (His kingdom on earth). Furthermore, this letter gave these poor Christians hope and comfort, their persecutor (Rome) would be punished by God. A careful study of history (and other ‘symbolic’ language in the Bible) will indeed prove that Revelation was written for the benefit of the Christians in that time period. (What use did they have for this letter that John wrote and AND SENT TO THEM when it didn’t even have any relevance to them?) I would encourage anyone and everyone to look more into the true meaning of Revelation, our society has grossly mangled the sweet and true message of God’s love and comfort to His people when they were facing hard times. http://www.thywordistruth.com has an excellent commentary on the book of Revelation. It is a good start to discovering God’s truth on this subject, it has certainly opened my eyes!

  28. Hi Pam,

    I acknowledge that it can still be Rome. Since the revelation was for the end times also, I do not see Rome as the one persecuting the saints, but Islam instead. So that is why I came to this conclusion.

    blessings
    marianne

    • The Roman church has already persecuted the Saints – ever hear of the inquisition? Millions were killed after the council of Laeodecea transferred the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It took 200 years to complete the transformation. And revelation speaks of these already-martyred people). If Satan takes over the end-time one-world Christian church and if the mark of the beast is Sunday worship, there won’t be a lot of actual persecution since almost everyone will gladly accept the mark (while they anxiously await some sort of barcode system to reject).
      Remember, the Antichrist will mimic Christ, not be outwardly the opposite.

      • Actually, wasn’t just the Catholic’s that were Persecuting people by burning them at the stake, their was the Protestants and Calvanists burning people. Even at present time I still hear of burning home and people by Anti Christians in Islamic Countries and in India.

        • Actually, for a example Joan of Arc (The Maid of Orleans national heroine and Catholic Saint was tried under a Ecclesiastical Court which is a community, lawful assembly and legislative body of people with shared beliefs which were controled by french clerics who supported the English at a time when France and England were at war and disliked each other. Their’s a very political element to her death more than religious. Certain members used different Religion views to their benifit to bring on burning. It is very much a possibility of cooked up trail for the English to get rid of a French Enemy. The same thing would have happened if she were English captured by the French.

          • Further, we must remember when we bring Rome into the equation their is a big difference between Pagan Rome and Christian Rome.

  29. Well, what does the bible actually say in Revelation 17?
    15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    Which city will the beast and his nation hate and invade, burn with fore and strip naked? Jerusalem. yes the antichrist will invade Jersualem. Revelation also calls this city Sodom and Egyot, where their Lord was crucified.

    The end times are about the antichrist invading Isreal and ruling form that city. He will stop the sacfrifices and proclaim himself God. In Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Hisea, Jerusalem is alled a harlot who will need to be invaded because of her rebellion. And what might that be? signing a peace treay and restarting sacrifices when God has given his only son…

  30. Hi Alan,

    I see where you are coming from, since Islam hates Israel.
    This person also agrees with you.

    http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

    My problem with that is that Jerusalem does not sit on many waters, does not represent “many peoples,” only Jews.

    Also, since the woman is also called Mystery Babylon, I do not see how Jerusalem fits the rest of the description.

    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/babylon-is-still-babylon/

    It does seem to present a “mystery.” Each view looks good, including mine, until someone points out some inconsistency. Maybe that is why it is a mystery – to keep us thinking.

    blessings
    marianne

    • You must understand that MYSTERY BABYLON refers to the ancient Babylon Mystery religion, a pagan abhorrent form of worship started by Nimrod, the founder of Babylon, and his wife Semiramis. Her son Tammuz, the false Christ was born on December 25 and his birthday was still celebrated (in a new way) by the Romans (Saturnalia), who forced the early Christians to adopt it as Christmas. Jesus will not be happy with any church who celebrates this day, and it is only one reason out of many dozens that the Whore (church) of Babylon will be destroyed. Almost no Christian church will not suffer some corrections at the second coming.
      I don’t believe God gives a rats ass about any religion other than his own. He won’t be coming to destroy Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism. He’s coming for US!

  31. Hi Maianne,
    One of the most interesting parts of Rev 17 is verses 8 to 10.
    It cannot represent the Roman Empire, as it was in existence when John wrote Revelation!
    Verse 8 states, “The beast you saw once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction”
    I can’t help but think there is a link between this and Daniel Chapter 4, regarding Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a tree.
    The tree is cut down, but as verse 15 says,”But let the stump and it’s roots be bound with iron and bronze, and remain in the ground, in the grass of the field”
    Three Kingdoms, though cut down will continue.The Kingdom of Gold,Bronze and Iron!………..Babylonian, Greek and Roman.?
    They will re-appear with another face?
    I need some help here!

    • Your confusion comes from the fact that John was not in ancient Rome when he was given the visions. He was in our time, probably watching CNN. When reading Revelation you must be mindful of where in time John is when he is writing the verse(s). It can get confusing for sure.

  32. Hi Glenn,

    Remember those ancient empires territories overlapped a lot. So it is possible for one country to be under more than one empire.

    I think the final empire is a “mix” of identities….like you said.

    That is what I am saying here:
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/antichrist-%E2%80%93-who-is-he-%E2%80%93-the-secret-is-in-the-mix/#comment-5414

    blessings
    marianne

  33. There can be no doubt that america is the country Referred to as Babylon in the end times in the bible. America fits the discription of this country far better than anyone else. America is the greatest super power the would has ever seen. It is the greatest importer in the world. It imports far more than it exports. With out american imports many countries would go broke. So when the bible talks about the anti-christ u can b sure that its talking about the president of the U.S.A. Since the bible says that the anti-christ will become its ruler. Also there r many conspiracy theories about the american pres.(Barack Obama) being the anti-christ. In order to beleave that u would first have to beleave that america is the country referred to as Babylon in the bible. In both Rev. 17:10 and Daniel 11:20 it says that the person who is king (or in this case president) just before the anti-christ comes to power of this prophetic Babylon will die after only a few days in office. So now your probably wondering who that guy is? Well i’am glade u asked! It says in Rev. 17:10 that there r 7 kings 5 r fallen, 1 is, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain a short while. In 2004 i was watching the news and they said that there were 5 former presidents still alive at that point in time. they were Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton. Thats when i figered out what the bible meant in Rev. 17:10 when it spoke of 7 kings. All 7 of them were alive at that point in time. And it referred to Geoge W. Bush as king #6 in the “present tense”, who at that point in time was involved in a war that he started in Iraq. I think this is close enough to an invasion of persia cause i think eastern Iraq used to be part of persia or at least part of the persian empire. Also this is the only time in history that 5 former pres. were all still alive at 1 time. I don’t care what anyone tells u! Pres. Barack Obama is not the anti-christ! The Bible clearly states that the man who occupies the leadership of this propheced Babylon before the coming of the anti-christ will die in office nethier in battle nor in anger. “The Catholic Living Bible” says in Daniel 11:20 that this will happen during a crisis. Which is where we r right now and its only getting worse every day, and its a threat to world pease and national security! According to this verse it sounds like this crisis will actually help the anti-christ to obtain power. This is all similar to how Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933 during the great depression after the death of Germany’s Chancellor. The Beast (anti-christ) is the 8th king, but is also 1 of the previous 7 kings. 2 of those 5 former pres. are dead now, and they died with out head wounds so they could not be the anti-christ! That leaves 4 possibilities. The Bible says that the anti-christ will be a piller of the church and also a famous peace maker. And through peace he shall destroy many! That’s clearly Jimmy Carter! No mater what anyone tells u about the anti-christ, remember the bible clearly states that the man who is king(or in this case pres.) before the anti-christ takes office will die first, and this will be during a crisis. Then during this crisis will he obtain the throne through lies, deceit and false promises. Not only that but as it says in Dan. 11, “he is not in line to inherit the throne.” Which of course none of the former pres. are. But in this case because of this international crisis and some good lying and false promises he will manage.

    • Hi Jim,

      In America, if something happens to the President, the vice president takes over. How would that fit into your theory?

      blessings
      marianne

    • In Revelation, Babylon Mystery refers to an ancient religion from Babylon. It refers to an end-time pagan church, NOT a country or a city. It actually refers to all the pagan aspects of the original Christian church in Rome (it picked up many practices and holidays from the Romans). These practices and changes the church made over the centuries will be taken out and destroyed. God is mad at what man did to his church, not at some city or country, no how bad they have become.

  34. Read the last paragraph! This will happen during a crisis.

    • But Carter is old and an idiot. Why would he be picked? Any why even a previous president? Carter, Clinton, both Bushes, have also been involved in the peace business.

  35. If the devil can bring the anti-chrit back to life it only stands to reason that he could make him youg again also! None of the other pres. are a piller of the church like Carter is and none have been involved in the peace process like Carter has been! Through peace he shall destroy many! A Bible quote!

    • Jim

      Ok. I guess we will see how things work out. If carter gets back in, I will buy you a pizza. :)

      By the way, I like your passion.

      blessings
      marianne

    • Sorry, but Carter will not live to be the Antichrist, nor could he fool many into believing he is Jesus Christ. It will take a much holier man than Carter to pull that off!

  36. Here is a twist!

    The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Protestantism – The Anglican Mother Queen – The Harlot), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (United States of America), which is a kingdom… The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

    Read 1st John 2:18-19 and John 6:66 to find out, and confirm, who the Antichrists really are. They have hidden well, haven’t they? The hide behind the name of Christ and even in the shape of a legitimate faith. However, they are the Harlot, the Beast, whose ultimate objective is to destroy us, the Catholic Church.

    Yes, there will be a time when all nations are deceived and will surround the Eternal City. They will kill the Pope, all the Cardinals and Bishops. Great persecution indeed. The continuous sacrifice, the one that Daniel talked about, will stop. The one that prevents will be taken away, as prophecies to the Thessalonians by saint Paul. Yes, he will be no more here on Earth. Christ in the Eucharist will no longer be amongst us. Then, on that terrible day, the Lord will come in Glory. The Second coming of Christ. And before his Glory, coming in the Clouds of Heaven, the Earth and Heavens will not be able to resist him. All will be consumed by Fire. We will all be before the Presence of the Lord. All eyes shall see him. Hades and the depths of the Earth, and the oceans, will return the death. All of us will be standing before the Throne of Justice in the Final Day of Judgment, which is the Second coming of Christ, and not the perversion Protestants have you believe.

    What do Protestant Evangelicals believe? That is, that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom. But by God, that has already happened 2000 years ago, as we Catholics know! Then, therefore, we must ask the question: Why would and why does Protestantism preach that Christ will come to Reign on the Earth for a thousand years, when that is already happening? Because Protestants are actually awaiting for Satan to be let out of the Abyss. They await for him, for he will deceive all nations to destroy the Catholic Church, the only Church of Christ. That, my brother, is the REAL PICTURE!

    By the way, the only and only Church of Christ is aware of it. We know…

    Cathechism

    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    ENCYCLICAL LETTER SPE SALVI
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

    DOMINUS IESUS
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    We pray so that you may be safe. Be careful, return to the House of the Father. If you are a captive of the Harlot, God will help you escape her deceptions and will set you free. If you are a John 6:66, then you will become a 1st John 2:18-19. Nevertheless, there is hope. I was captive in one of the Protestant sects and escaped. I returned to Him, the Mana that descended from Heaven, the word of God made Flesh.

    With my sincere love,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Hello Juan,

      I felt your pain as I read what you wrote. It is unfair to point a finger at any Christian, and declare him Antichrist. God looks at the heart, and its devotion, as well as godly behavior, not the denomination.

      With a false religious system like Islam staring us in the face, why is there even a reason to falsely accuse other Christians?

      One day, soon I hope, Jesus will return and make all things new again, defeat the false system, and make us a church without spot or wrinkle. Then, all false doctrines will be gone, and people will “see” the truth again. In the meantime, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, and help us be the best we can be for God.

      • Marianne:

        According to the Sacred Scriptures, in the 1st Universal Epistle of John, chapter 2, verses 18 and 19, antichrists come from within us. An Antichrist is never born outside the Church; it is one that comes from within. A good example is Judas, the Apostle, one of the twelve, who became the Son of Perdition. Same thing happens to all the other Antichrists. They have to come from within the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church. According to Saint John’s first Epistle, one of the characteristic is that they [the antichrists] leave us, they depart from us, they break the communion. In other words, they were once amongst us and they left us. That is the way in which we can recognize them.

        Therefore, Muslims are not the Antichrists. The perfect candidates according to the words of Saint John in the First Universal Epistle confirm us with that teaching (1st John 2:18-19) are Protestants. Saint John the Apostle also confirms to us the reason why they leave us in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, verse 66 (John 6:66) –indeed, the number of the Beast, 666. You see, they leave us because antichrists DO NOT believe Christ is God made flesh. They do not believe either he is the Mana that descended from heaven. They scandalize when they hear that Christ becomes bread and wine (John 6:66). Why don’t they believe? If you think about it, it is as absurd to believe God’s word becomes flesh, as to believe Christ becomes bread and wine. In order to believe both things, the Father must reveal to you that HE is the Messiah, the Only Son of God, God himself, made flesh, and made bread and wine for us in the Eucharist. The father reveled that to Peter, as according to the Holy Scriptures.

        There you have it. If you are a “Christian” and you do not believe in the Eucharist, you are an antichrist. If you are a Catholic who does not believe, you will depart and leave us. You will no longer have communion with us. It is very simple: you betray Christ and turn against the Catholic Church. That is the same thing the Protestant Founders did. They betray the Church and started trashing her and accusing her, the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, for a reward of “30 silver coins.” Am I comparing Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox to Judas the traitor? Yes!

        Excerpt proving protestant founders attack the Catholic Church.

        Most Reformation writers and all Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon.[9][10] This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible.

        Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646. The identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon is kept in the Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified “ecclesiastical Babylon” with “apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy”) and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The “drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs,” by this interpretation, refers to the inquisition and the veneration of saints and relics and the Sunday sacredness, were viewed by Reformers as idolatry and apostasy.

        Excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

        God, have mercy on them. Let them escape the deceptive wine of the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Churches, which is ruled by the Queen of England, the Apocalyptic Harlot.

        Sincerely,

        Juan Eduardo Alvear

        • Big Mistake their Juan Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God! Islam believes Jesus as a Prophet only! Hence, in the bible you must believe in Jesus as the son of God or you believe in him not and Islam doesn’t believe Christ is God, therefore they are Anti-Christ. However, Jews dont’ believe in Christ as God too as their still waiting for the Messiah to come.

        • Sorry, but breaking news for you is that protestants actually eat true Blood and Flesh, etc, they are called confessional lutherans, and are reformed catholic church in nature.

          • I never heard of them, but good to know this. most protestants take communion as symbolic

            • Protesting Churches are Pagan Trinitarian worshippers as the RCC, One of the children of the Mother of Harlots and no doubt believe in fallen angels which is absolutely blasphemy.

    • Juan I need help with my Baptis Sister I have been a Converted Catholic since 1980 e-mail me at MissHeidiMae@msn.com

  37. Here is a twist!

    The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Protestantism – The Anglican Mother Queen – The Harlot), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (United States of America, Ancient Rome, or whatever nation ruling the world at a given time), which is a kingdom… The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

    Read 1st John 2:18-19 and John 6:66 to find out, and confirm, who the Antichrists really are. They have hidden well, haven’t they? The hide behind the name of Christ and even in the shape of a legitimate faith. However, they are the Harlot, the Beast, whose ultimate objective is to destroy us, the Catholic Church.

    Yes, there will be a time when all nations are deceived and will surround the Eternal City. They will kill the Pope, all the Cardinals and Bishops. Great persecution indeed. The continuous sacrifice, the one that Daniel the Great Prophet talked about, will stop. The one that prevents the manifestation of the SON OF INIQUITY, will be taken away –as prophesied to the Thessalonians by saint Paul. Yes, he will be no more here on Earth. Christ in the Eucharist will no longer be amongst us. Then, on that terrible day, the Lord will come in Glory. The Second Coming of Christ will take place. And before his Glorious Coming, when he comes in the Clouds of Heaven, the Earth and Heavens will not be able to resist him. All will be consumed by Fire. We will all be before the Presence of the Lord. All eyes shall see him. Hades and the depths of the Earth, and the oceans, Death itself, will return all the dead. Resurrection Day! All of us will be standing before the Throne of God in the Final Day of Judgment, which is the Second Coming of Christ –and not the perversion Protestants have you believe as their Second Coming.

    What do Protestant Evangelicals believe? That is, that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom. Yet we say: “But by God, that has already happened 2000 years ago, as we Catholics know!” Then, therefore, we must ask the question: Why would and why does Protestantism preach that Christ will come to Reign on the Earth for a thousand years, when that is already happening? Because Protestants are actually awaiting for Satan to be let out of the Abyss (that is their Second Coming of Christ). They await for him, for he will deceive all nations to destroy the Catholic Church, the only Church of Christ. That, my brother, is the REAL PICTURE!

    By the way, the only and only Church of Christ is aware of it. We know…

    Cathechism
    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577 http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    ENCYCLICAL LETTER SPE SALVI
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

    DOMINUS IESUS
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    We pray so that you may be safe. Be careful, return to the House of the Father. If you are a captive of the Harlot, God will help you escape her deceptions and will set you free. If you are a John 6:66, then you will become a 1st John 2:18-19. Nevertheless, there is hope. I was captive in one of the Protestant sects and escaped. I returned to Him, the Mana that descended from Heaven, the word of God made Flesh.

    With my sincere love,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Go back to square one – a woman in prophesy represents a church, not a city or country – that would be a “beast.” (See Daniel for that definition).

  38. Protestantism is the real enemy of Western Civilization.

    First of all, Protestantism is born as an antagonistic movement. That is, is a movement whose stand is to claim the Catholic Church is a Satanic Church, inspired by Satan to corrupt all the nations of the world. Thus, Protestant Founders have regarded Catholics as the Whore of Babylon, which is a prophetic depiction in the Book of Revelation of a Nation that corrupts all other nations with its evil manipulations. In brief, Protestantism teaches discrimination against Catholics as a core value of their teachings. However, that hatred towards Catholics is disguised as a benevolent tolerance towards illiterate idol worshipers who are deceived by a satanic cult called the Whore of Babylon. To put it bluntly: Protestants refer to Catholics as retarded sons-of-bitches.

    Most Reformation writers and all Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon.[9][10] This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible.

    Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646. The identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon is kept in the Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified “ecclesiastical Babylon” with “apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy”) and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The “drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs,” by this interpretation, refers to the inquisition and the veneration of saints and relics and the Sunday sacredness, were viewed by Reformers as idolatry and apostasy.

    Excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

    Second of all. Protestantism is never recognized as a Church by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church clearly states through the Magisterium and the Pope, that there is only one Church. Then Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II signed a document called Dominus Iesus in 1999 reinstating those teachings. Thus it states that Protestants are not in full Harmony and communion with the Only Church of Christ. Read it for yourself:

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    Third of all. Protestantism teaches what is regarded as an intrinsic perversion, driven by politics, when it states that Christ will come to Reign in Jerusalem for one thousand years. That Protestant Millennialism undermines the current Establishment of the Kingdom of Christ in the Catholic Church, and promotes a perverse form of secularized Messianism. Paragraph 676 of Catechism.

    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    I am going to be very blunt and say it: The USA is NOT the messianic Kingdom of Christ where Jesus will rule for a Millennia, as WASP Protestantism claims with the New World Order and other similar fantasies. Actually, The Catholic Church is that Millennial Kingdom, and we have been ruling the Earth with Iron Scepter, with the Messiah, since the Millennia started, 2000 ago. By Eduardo Alvear

    Fourth of all. Protestantism has a flawed economic business model which is inspired in John Calvin, also called Protestant Calvinism. Calvinists, in its view of wealth and riches, proclaims that those persons with money are blessed by God, and those without money, are not blessed by God. Thus, in order to protect those that are “blessed” (in their own clan), it promotes nepotism, and it also brakes the root of all ethical and moral principles by stating that THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS in order to make wealth. Simplifying, it states that in the name of making wealth, you have license to kill and do whatever you want. This teaching is contrary to Christ’s teachings as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. Hus, the Protestant Calvinist model of economy, which is the foundation of the Capitalism, or Savage Capitalism, is lacking in justice, morals and ethics. It is a system based in discrimination against the poor and Catholic nations.

    The ‘strong’ thesis is that Calvinism caused capitalism
    http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/y64l10.html

    Finally. John 6:66, and 1st of John 2:18-19 really tell us the nature of the challenge we are facing regarding Protestantism. Thus, we pray for those left us, Protestants, because they do not believe His words. We pray so that they may return to the House of the Father. We pray so that they stop hurting us and persecuting us, discriminating against the poor, the Mexican, the catholic and the disabled. We pray so that their hearts are open to mercy and charity. We pray so that they may experience the same thing that happened to Saul of Tarsus when he was on his way to Damascus, persecuting Christians, filled with the zeal of God, a zeal without discernment (as he later stated of himself). God, please let them “fall off the horse” and cure their blindness, convert their hearts and make them open their eyes, just as you did to Saul. Saul after this encounter became known as Saint Paul, apostle to the Gentiles. Saint Paul wrote most of the New Testament after his miraculous conversion. Oh God, convert their hearts so that they no more persecute your only Church, the Catholic Church, Mexican immigrants.

    • If as you say, The Catholic Church is that Millennial Kingdom, and we have been ruling the Earth with Iron Scepter, with the Messiah, since the Millennia started, 2000 ago, then as the Holy Father of the church and the holder of the scepter, the Pope must therefore be Jesus Christ. When Jesus said of the Antichrist that many will come in my name, he was apparently referring to the many Popes thru the centuries. It makes a great case for the followers of Luther, doesn’t it?
      I guess the real Jesus never has to return as long as we have a Pope.

  39. Well thot out comments, but very short on truth. It ignores the need for repentance for the foundations of the Catholic Church. So much fighting among the leaders for position, icluding kidnapping and murder. So much pushing mens’ traditions on the people who had no Bible to see the truths for themselves. So much making God’s word of no effect, bringing the dark ages.

    Paul said the spirit of anti-christ was already present, during his day. So we might look back and see just what Paul meant. But first, it must be noted that Peter and the other original Apostles were Apostles of the Jews by Jesus’ command to go to them, but not to the gentiles. This begs questions of how then Peter is the first “pope” of the gentiles. More on that later.

    Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles as he stated, and time has proven. The Jews and the Church have different destinies. The Church is to be a Spiritual Kingdom, a preparation of the Bride of Christ. But the Jews are to be an earthly Kingdom of God, right thru the millenium. The Bride will come down during that time, but little is said about what role She will play, other than ruling and reigning with Christ. She may even be invisible to the earthly inhabitants.

    Back to Peter being the “rock” of the churches. Peter had just had a revelation of who Jesus was, and it had come from the Father, as Jesus noted. When Jesus said, “This is the rock I will build my church upon,” it was not Peter, but it was the REVELATION FROM THE FATHER about His Son, Jesus that would be that rock, the Rock of salvation. Peter was not and never will be the rock of our salvation. It was a misreading of Scripture that fit the desires of those with the spirit of anti-christ, that the Catholic church was built on.

    None of this excuses our present Protestant churches. Surely, the spirit of anti-christ prevails in them, as well. Like the Catholic church before them, they have gone-a-whoring. Both have become Babylon. DavWms

    • Judgment Day=Second Coming of Christ

      What are my credentials? You may say: “How can you talk about Protestants if you do not even know them, you are a Catholic?

      Well, I was raised a Catholic. Yet I became a Protestant, or, Evangelical, as others called us. I learned the scriptures there. I became good at them. However, I was given a crooked and twisted interpretation and use of them, much like Satan when he tempted Jesus in the desert. I had the Enemy’s interpretation and twist of the Scriptures, a perverted millenarian version of them. I knew the scriptures, but with a twist: the Antichrists twist, for I even became a Pastor amongst them. We used to preach Christ was coming to establish his kingdom on Earth for a Thousand years, which is the Great Deception that welcomes the Antichrist’s Kingdom of the Beast.

      Yes, I was a pastor. I was anointed by the Evangelical “Church.” The story is long, so I will not give you many details. I have already written a book about it. The Catholic Church published my book when I returned to the only Church of Christ. My book is here, it is free (However, it is in Spanish Language): http://www.alvear.us/

      What is it I am trying to do with these words? I am trying to warn you to open your eyes. There is no such thing as a perfect kingdom on Earth, where there is no sin, where there is no pain. That, my friend, is reserved for Heaven, the new Universe he is creating for us. So, if anyone tells you that the Messiah will come to establish THAT kind of Kingdom on Earth; they are lying to you. They just want you follow them. They are advertising themselves as the Christ: DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM, do not follow them. Remember, Christ already established His Kingdom on Earth when he came the First time in His Church. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. We are that Church, the Catholic Church. We are, and we will be under attack continuously. Yet, there will be the day when Satan will be let loose from Hell. That day he will deceive all nations to come and fight against us. They will kill the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops. As a conclusion, we will no longer be able to Consecrate: to make present the presence of God here on Earth through the Eucharist. Since there will be no one to stop him, for the Eucharist is gone, that day Satan will come to Earth from Hell and will reign once again the Earth with total devastation and destruction, sin and iniquity, deceptions and lies. However, it will be for a very short period of time. When that day of terrible persecution against Catholics begins (for we will be persecuted by Protestants as well) the Final Day of Judgment will come.

      What is the final day of Judgment? The Second coming of Christ in Glory. His Glory is so majestic that the Earth will not resist him. Not even the Universe itself will resist him. All of this creation will Die, to be born again. That is the day of Resurrection, for not only us will resurrect. Yes, we will be the first ones. However, the Universe will follow and there will be a new Heaven, and a New Earth. However, before all of this happens, the whole Cosmos must be consumed by fire.

      When will this happen? I just know it will happen in the future, for the Church and the Scriptures give us testimony of it. One of the very evident signs will be the great persecution of Catholics throughout the Earth. It will be similar to what Hitler did to the Jews, but at a global scale.

      Where did I get all of this? The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

      • Hi Juan,

        I am staying neutral on this, so that people can express their views. But I do think it is a concern that Protestants have almost eliminated Communion from their churches. I see it as a rare occurrence.

        Jesus is returning for a “church” without spot or wrinkle, referring to false doctrines, and practices. Right now, this does not describe the body of Christ to me.

        I think the next world war, which seems imminent, will bring many to their knees, and hopefully, purge many of their false views, if they are lucky enough to live that long. We all need to humble ourselves and repent.

        I look forward to the day when Jesus rules and all the earth bows to him as Messiah.

      • I don’t believe the Catechism any more than I believe the Koran or the book of Mormon. The writers all had an agenda. I’ll take the Bible, myself. The only true WORD.

      • Actually I’m not really surprise if you guys that are having a good nasty stab at the Catholic Church are Protestants. I find that their are Protestants that have a general hatred of Catholism and point judgemental fingers at this organisation calling it the Anti-Christ, when they first should judge their own organisations sins before they do others. Further Martin Luther did not want to break away from Catholism, he just wanted them to change their practices. However, the Catholic Church do find it tragic that the reformist issues were not addressed without dividing Christendom and recognize after all that the Catholic Church is just a organization run by men whom are imperfect and susceptible to corruption.

        Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers (Protestants for one) mistakenly affixed to them.

    • Yes I agree and this link will confirm what you are saing.
      http://www.keithhunt.com/Ntacts94.html

  40. water represents multitude, woman represent church, beast represent power, and the dragon is the devil.
    somebody said that rome does not have power over the world, how about this; when a new pope is being crowned, these words are repeated:
    “(Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World, Vicar of Our Savior Jesus Christ in earth, to whom is honor and glory in the ages of ages.)”
    rome rules the world not in political but in religious form.
    she is the mother harlot who have daughters “the denominations”
    they all trace their way back to Catholic..
    that and many more…

  41. I come here to place the icing on the cake!!
    Do you know that the ‘prophet’ of Islam and the Koran was financially back up by the Roman Catholic Church?
    Do you know that the ‘Dome’ of the Rock is built on land that the Roman Catholic Church owns?
    The so called ‘holy roman empire’ divided itself into Two legs.
    The one with the gold makes the rules.
    Have you any knowledge of ‘albert Pike’ ??

    • This Prophet of Islam (considered from Adam to Muhammad) and the Koran financially backed up by the Roman Catholic Church is another conspiracy since Muhammad lived 570CE to 632 long before the Roman Catholic Church was even created (The Vatican).

      The Word Roman Catholic did not even appear in the English language until the 16th century when the Protestantism appeared and a differentiation was needed between specific Christian groups.

      The Vatican made it’s first appearance 326 around about the first half of the 4th century were the first Basilica of St Peter’s was built over the site of the Circus of Nero, during the reign of Constantine 1 long after the Prophets of Islam appeared.

      If such a financial backing occurred it would have been made by Pagan Roman’s not Christians who saw some sought of advantage politically or strategically.

      The Dome of the rock and Muslims being financial backed by the Catholic Church is considered as conspiracy theory not fact. However western governments do give funding to Islamic schools and their bodies around the world, as well as other religious organizations such as the Jewish for example, at present day.

      Further, this Dome of the Rock built on Roman Catholic ground is not totally true as it was owned by the Byzantine Empire which is Roman Christian and also known as Greek Christian. The Catholic Religion did not come to fruitarian until later.

      This Christian lands (not Catholic) in Jerusalem was Conquered by the Muslims in 638AD by Caliph Omar in which the Dome of the Rock was erected with its blasphemies that Jesus is not the son of God and other words written on it.

  42. p.s.
    I have found a lecture given by Dr. Walter Veith on this subject.
    Here is a youtube link

    • Hi Abigail

      There seems to be multiple views on the 7 hills, and the Catholic church is a popular selection for the 7 hills. Albert Pike was a Luciferan and a Freemason.

      I am listening to the video now..only into the first 5 minutes…..according to Daniel, and revelation, the beast is the revived Grecian empire, not the revived Roman empire…..which the speaker believes.

      I will not disagree that the Catholic Church has contributed a huge mess to the world scene, and will play a part in the end time deception. I heard the other day, that it decided aliens were friendly, and not demons.

      • Hi Marianne ,

        Hope you have watch the entire lecture of Professor Veith.
        Don’t know if you are familiar with this here but some of your readers may not be.

        “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

        This is what the lucifertarians have in store. It’s a card game!
        The catholic church is the deceiver and the torturer. Either known or unknown. Very hypocritical!

        • Hi Abigail,

          I listened to the whole video! Wow, it was long!

          I agree with a lot of what he says but not everything.

          He said some things that were obviously wrong, like since the Quran does not believe Jesus died, and neither do the Catholics. The Catholics believe Jesus died. Also, even though he quoted the Quran as saying Satan and the genii could cause people to be bad, he then concluded that the Quran says that this is not true, that there is nothing wrong with them.

          I am not convinced that Islam was promoted/ initiated by the Catholic church either. That seems like speculation. He does a lot of that.

          Furthermore, I am not convinced that it is to the advantage of the church leaders to worship Lucifer, and then tell the followers to worship Jesus instead. This is counterproductive. Although the Church is far from perfect, and has many errors, I think he hates the Catholic church so much that he is willing to believe anything at all that is negative. We need to be objective, not biased, when looking at “speculation.”

          Also, we have to be careful about symbols used over thousands of years, and how they can have different meanings to users. If I were to use a flower or a heavenly light as a symbol for God, and this had been done before in ancient times, as a symbol for Satan, this does not corrupt my use of the symbol. I have a different use of the symbol. When trying to be creative, people tend to use available, simple objects as symbols, rather than trying to create a new symbol.

          Satan has no monopoly on the use of the star. God made the stars, so he should have first choice. :) Saying that since the star is used in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, does not mean that all uses are Satanic. One must look at the intended use of the star, and the theology.

          The Luciferan mindset is very prevalent. I think most are more deceived by it, than practicing it. But deceived people are still dangerous, so we should be on the watch for them.

          • Hi Marianne,

            I hate to do this research but for the sake of The Truth I can if you wish post simple links that proves the involvement and the initiation of the Catholic Church with Islam.
            To start with
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

            • Hi Abigail.

              I am not sure what the point is here. The Dome was built by the Muslims in the 600s. Over time, the territory has changed hands several times, including the Crusaders and the British, as well as the Muslims. It is now under Jordanian control, even though it is “inside” the Jewish state of Israel. All 3 monotheistic religions co-exist in Israel today. I has been that way for a long time. The Catholic church is just stupid, since it does not read the bible. It easily compromises over everything.

  43. SORRY… please read the BIBLE. The KINGS of the EARTH have committed FORNICATION with her (the City). What KINGS of the earth sleep with her in order to gain something? The Presidents and Kings sleep with (fornicate) with the Vatican. The VATICAN is a COUNTRY. No who did they have to sleep with for a RELIGIOUS organization to get their OWN COUNTRY?

    You error on the WATERS. The waters are PEOPLE NATIONS AND TOUNGUES. Not REAL WATER. So your argument that it is Turkey because it is surrounded by real water is false. The WATERS in Revelation 17-18 are PEOPLE, NATIONS and many LANGUAGES (TONGUES).

    The BLOOD of the saints are on her hands. People like William Tyndale and MANY, MANY others were killed during the inquisition of the Papacy.

    She is RICH. I have been to the VATICAN several times. Everything is RICH; GOLD, PRECIOUS STONES, etc.

    ETC, ETC, ETC. It must be ROME and in particular, VATICAN! And she is called, MYSTERY Babylon, NOT BABYLON. She is a MYSTERY that will be revealed. CATHOLICISM today is accepting MANY religions under their faith. They call the Muslims, “Brothers”. SHE has helped Leaders and Kings come to power. She is POWERFUL, and she will help the man of sin to come to power as well.

    But, even so, COME LORD JESUS!!

  44. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The Daughters of CATHOLICISM have error greatly. Catholicism, praises Mary “Hail Mary, Full of grace, Blessed art though among women..” She says there is a purgatory. They call the Pope (Pope means, “Father, Papa”, and Jesus said that no man should call someone their spiritual Father; but Catholics ignore this. They believe Baptism saves. They believe the “Most Holy Father” (Pope) is infallible in doctrine. They believe the sacraments (works) save. Etc. Etc. They believe they drink the LITERAL BLOOD of Jesus and eat his LITERAL FLESH, during their communion (Eucharist). This is the CUP OF ABOMINATIONS. Drinking the BLOOD of Jesus. Jesus said it was for a MEMORIAL. Jesus’ blood is not a PERPETUAL (ongoing) sacrifice. It was once, for all. IT IS FINISHED!

    • Hi mark,

      What you say about the Catholic Church is true. It just seems now, no one cares about it any more. It does not have the power or influence that it used to. Not even Catholics take the Pope and its church seriously. Most are fallen away, and have become atheists. The Catholic Church is dead.

      • Whether you take a power seriously or not, it does NOT diminish its’ influence,
        nor its’ might.
        The Catholic Church is a covenant of DEATH to the soul and to the body!!
        You say that most have fallen away as though it was a fall to break loose from its’ claws.
        Do you not understand that the ‘Sunday’ worshippers are in its’ prisons?
        So are the CHRIST MASS followers.
        And so are the “easter’ or ASter followers.
        Halloween and all its’ “CUTE” little Pagan Holidays.
        The Catholic Church IS DEAD, that is true!
        Eternally DEAD!!
        But while we are still walking the earth know that its’ grip on the rulers and the normal earthlings is ‘iron’

  45. The word “Vatican” literally means “Divining Serpent,” and is derived from Vatis=Diviner and Can=Serpent. Vatican City and St. Peter’s Basilica were built on the ancient pagan site called in Latin vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis, which means hill or mountain of prophecy. Coins minted in Vatican City often bear the inscription “CITTÁ DEL VATICANO”, which means City of Prophecy. The Church of Rome thus applies the title of “City” to its structure and as we shall see, lays claim to all the other attributes as well. In the coin shown here, minted in 1963, Pope Paul VI is shown together with his title Pontifex Maximus and the inscription on the reverse side reads “CITTÁ DEL VATICANO.” The full title of the Vatican State is “STATO DELLA CITTÁ DEL VATICANO” which is the combination of Church and State. There is also a woman on the reverse side of the coin, and at her feet is her title, FIDES, which means faith. This woman is symbolic of the Roman Catholic faith, or Roman Catholic Church, which claims power over all governments on earth.
    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Revelation 17:18

  46. Passover and the feast of unleavened Bread unto the Lord has been changed by the Catholic Church to this.
    Regarding Easter; this word comes for the Ishtar (also called Semiramis or Astarte) goddess of fertility and sexual love; wife of Nimrod and mother of Tammuz. The feast of Ishtar in Babylon was a fertility rite. Babylonians would worship the things of fertility in nature by buying new outfits to wear because the trees were putting on new “clothes” during this time of year. During this time of year, they depicted Ishtar as being pregnant. The Babylonians worshipped the rabbit because it was the most fertile of all the animals in the wild. The people of the day colored, painted and played with eggs as being symbolic of fertility and their attempts to get pregnant.
    The catholic church even went into the trouble of changing times just so this pagan would be held on the first Sunday following the Vernal Equinox.

    • Yes, Abigail

      The Catholic Church is full of nonsense. But try to keep end time prophecy in perspective. Remember, Protestants have Easter egg hunts too. There are a lot of stupid traditions based on pagan feasts. that is why the catholic church is not a power any more in the world. All the governments think it is a stupid institution. The church is deceived and has made a fool of itself.

      • To me Easter egg hunts bring some fun and spice to children. However The Easter egg has a symbolism to Catholics and other Christian religions which simply means: the egg is the tomb of which Jesus was placed in and the breaking of the Easter egg just means Christ has risen.

  47. As I said at the beginning, the one with the gold rules. Now as for the catholic church not having any power I must say that such intellectual conclusion is the result of a very naive, narrow and at this point voluntarist perception.
    Are you a catholic?
    If you are then I understand your tenacity.
    But for the sake of argument I am presenting another lecture from Dr. Veith, for those who may be interested.

    For myself I am folding this discussion because I see you seem determined to
    undervalue every thing I present.

    Abigail

  48. The Whore of Babylon are Protestants. The Beast is U.S.A. The mark of the Beast, 666, is cleverly described in… John 6:66 (however, only the chosen ones have been given the wisdom to understand the meaning of 666).

    • If the USA is the beast and the number of his name is 666, what name do you use to arrive at it? You’ve given the number of a verse that was not in Johns bible when he wrote this. Sounds like a trick to me. I’ll stick with Vicarivs Filii Dei to get the number.

  49. Protestantism is the root of all the problems in America.

    My thesis is very simple. It states Protestantism is the root of all the problems in America. The Republican Party is an example of the State run by a Religious Group: White Anglo Saxon Protestants. That is unconstitutional. A religion cannot run the Nation. Republicans are a religion, more than a Political Party.

    Protestantism has become much to arrogant. WASP’s are going to loose their power in the World.

  50. Protestants proclaim to be themselves the Messianic Kingdom of Christ that will Rule for Thousand Years. That sounds to me like another cult message, like Jim Jones or David Coresh. The only difference in between the little cults and the big cult, is the numbers. The Big Cult is called the Republican Party. The Messianic Kingdom is called by Bush the Father, Bush the son, and its followers, the NEW WORLD ORDER, total domination, the Kingdom of the Messiah, defenders of the Universe. In other words: “Christ will rule in Israel for a thousand years and we shall be the military power and might that Christ will use to RULE THE WORLD. USA the ARMY of the MESSIAH!”

    I am sorry my friend, but that is the most perverse propaganda I have ever heard. If that is really what Republicans and Protestant and Evangelicals are all about, I quit. I am going back to the Catholic Church, the one this “Cult” of fanatics with world-domination-wet-dreams criticizes so much.

    Don’t you get it? Protestantism is but a big cult, a sect, a “satanic deception.”

    • Hi Juan,

      I can see from the above discussions why you would be frustrated. I personally see problems in both the Catholic and Protestant branches of “the Church.” The Catholic church has elevated Mary to a goddess, confused the world about 3 gods, and the Protestants worship money, and continue the confusion. I do not see the Protestants as racist.

      If you look around this site, you will see posts criticizing the Protestant branch, not the Catholic. The Catholic may only come up in an occasional discussion, like on this page.

      What we need to do is just be good Christians, and go by the bible, instead of what an institution says. It may be ok if they are correct about something, but it is wrong to follow them if they contradict the bible in some way.

    • You only need one verse to know you will be saved from the wrath of God: Rev. 14:12. You avoid the mark of the beast by keeping the commandments of GOD. Simple as that. Including the 4th commandment – keeping His sabbath.

  51. Hi Marianne,

    Here is another link to a lecture by Dr. Veith.

    The King James version is based on the received text and as far as I know
    every modern translation of the Holy Scriptures has been modified, entire sections removed and crossed out.
    Tell me HOW can a sincere seeker of the Truth of God ever know the real Truth and the Christ?
    I am furious at the audacity of the catholic church to remove from scriptures The Savior of this lost world.
    If I fell this way and I am just human how do you think God sees this demonic whore?
    If you also listen to the previous lectures entitled War of the Bibles you will get an entire scope of this ‘GREAT DECEPTION’
    I have learned early on in my life that what God calls ‘great’ he means great.
    We are to live not by bread alone but by ‘every word’ that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
    How dare they change the Holy Word?
    So if a person goes to the bible for their life, I would suggest that they better go to the true version.
    Our duty is to expose this corruption!

    • Hi abigail

      I guess the debate continues.! :)

    • The Old Testament and New Testament has come down to us from many translated languages. Over time words change their meaning and are lost in time. The problem is over time The Old and New Testament have come under many scrutinies and arguments with scholars and all soughts of persons alike such as the Jewish rabbis have queried to gain greater understanding of its meaning. If things are not added or have changed slightly it is because of the difficulty of the word. These literate people all have to go through a process of finding out if they are authentic or fake words and etc. However, in the end for me it is a matter only Christ can fix up. But I’m a little worried since their is a part of the Bible which mentions a punishment for altering the words of the Bible.

  52. One thing to note, that many defend their religion, rather than the Gospel. Jesus was promoting a relationship with Him, not with a religion. That is why the Catholic religion is a whore, for they try to get between God and man.

    But Protestants need to look at themselves, too. Do we not have “heroes” we follow after? Have our hero preachers sought to get men to follow them, and grafted themselves between us and the True Vine? While the Protestants have broken away from the Catholic church, they brot many subtle evils in with themselves.

    The blind still lead the blind. DavWms

    • Mr. Williams,

      Jesus Christ did not come from the Throne of God to promote anything!
      The Son of God, the Word of God came in the flesh to do the Will of the Holy One that sent Him.
      And that is to lay His life down for the ‘sins of mankind’ as the perfect Atonement and God raised Him from the dead!
      And He did this so to reconcile man to God. And only through Him will this be achieved by any one who with godly repentance believes on Him and do the Commandments of God.
      Without Him you are dead and will never enter everlasting Life.
      The so called catholic ‘church’ has its roots in Babylon and so are its rites.
      She is an Abomination to The Lord!
      She in her arrogance changed the Commandments Of The Lord.
      She instituted idolatry, paganism and murder. She is a Luciferian, a freemason a templar, a Hypocrite.
      She changed the Holy Scriptures and for all of this she demands adoration by men.
      She is a whore with the nations.
      She plays the harlot with the assemblies.
      She is the most detestable thing on the face of the planet.

      There is not many that protest her now these days. April 17/08 she paid a visit to the States. And the President Bowed his knee to her!
      Now you have a President bowing to Arab Kings. What does that tell you?
      Well to me it says much!

      Don’t you know how much The Whore desires your destruction?

      In history the protestants broke free of her, but that is history.

    • Actually, when you think of it at the begining their was no Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and Anglican Christian religions etc. Thus, their only existed Christianity not various organisations of Christianity.

  53. Marianne:

    SOLA SCRIPTURA. Yes, I have heard the Sola Scriptura argument many times: Read the Bible, the Bible is the source (as if the Bible had been printed in Heaven and brought to us by Angels -as Mormons claim about their writings). Did you know that Protestant Bible Scholars have discovered through exegesis that the Bible is a fruit of the tradition of the church in the Ecumenical Council of Churches (where Catholics belong no to)? Thus, finally they are coming to the conclusion that the Bible is a fruit of the Tradition of the Church.

    The new buzz words (actually a 10 year old buzz word) is SOLA TRADITIO instead of SOLA SCRIPTURA. Why? Because the Catholic Church wrote the Bible.

  54. Mr. Juan,

    You say you are going back to the Whore. Why?
    What have they ever done for you?
    Be frustrated with the mess if you will but if you had walked away from her, I suggest that you keep on walking as far away from her as possible.
    The King James version of the Holy Scriptures is the only existing true text.
    If you love The Lord then you must love His Word – not the diluted and mixed text
    of the Catholics, because they have profaned The Truth.

    • Abigail,

      If you want to witness, and help someone, please use kindness, and exhortation. Using this strong language defeats your purpose.

    • What a you talking about Abigail. the Catholic people recognize the King James Bible as the Authorized version.

    • Sorry, but breaking news for you is that oldest bible copies are actually in Slavic language, which is basically Russian, but the texts are really scarce and don’t give much “new info”

      • dear Андрей

        with Putin as leader, religious freedom for christians seems to be protected.

        what is the religious environment in Russia? Is it still mainly atheist?

        • christianity is a minority anyways, and most of it is orthodox, which is basically not much different from catholics…

  55. What strong language are you speaking of Marianne?
    In my dictionary to exhort means to ‘strongly urge.’
    And how was I unkind?

    • abigail

      Use positive comments, rather than negative ones. People become defensive if they feel attacked. Do not let your zealous, but negative, observations about the church overshadow your love for the lost.

  56. The Word Of The Lord is a Lamp unto my feet.

    1

    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2

    With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4

    And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

  57. At least we know that the seven vials of the Wrath of God are reserved for The Mother of Harlots.
    Proverbs 5 : 7-11
    Therefore hear me now, my children
    And do not depart from the words of my Mouth.
    Remove your way far from her,
    And do not go near the door of her house,
    Lest you give your honor to others.
    And your years to the cruel one;
    Lest aliens be filled with your wealth.
    And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
    And you mourn at last,
    When your flesh and your body are consumed.

  58. 1st John 2:18-19, and John 6:66.

    Who is the harlot? The one religion that pretends to be the followers of the Messiah, yet in fact they left the Messiah since John 6:66.

    Who are the Antichrists?

    The ones that left us because they do not believe are drinking the wine of the harlot, the spirit of the Antichrist. The ones that are under the spell of the Harlot and under the deception of the Antichrist are they. The ones referred to in 1st. John 2:18-19
    Who are they? All of those that departed the Catholic Church and hate us are they. They have the mark of the beast in their foreheads and their arms. They were deceived by Martin Luther, Calvin, Knox. They disguise themselves as servants of God, yet they are Antichrist. The tell the world the Messiah is coming to rule the world under the flag of the USA, the New World Order, for according to them Jesus will reign from Jerusalem. Yet the truth is that the Kingdom of Christ was established in the Papacy. He has been ruling the Millennium through the Church. The Second Coming is not what these perverts prophecy. The Second Coming of Christ is in Glory, and the Earth and the Stars will run away from the presence of God. For when Christ comes for the Second time as a judge, in The Final Day of Judgment, there will be no Earth for him to rule on. The Earth will vanish and all will stand before his presence. His works will be made manifest. The light will shine and all of us will be naked before the presence of God. All of our works will be known. It is on that Tremendous Day that he will cast his judgment. He will separate the sheep from the goats, the pure from the impure, for all will resurrect: some to eternal condemnation, others to Life Everlasting and will dwell in the Temple of the Lord, for they will be the Temple of the Lord.

    The Lake of Fire will be inaugurated and the Evil One and his followers will be casted there for eternity. So I thank you Lord because you open my eyes in the same way you opened the eyes of Saul of Tarsus. He used to persecute Christians until the day you opened his eyes. He was not aware he was persecuting you. He though he was doing a favor to God by killing Christians. The same exact thing happens today to many. They are under the influence of the deceiver and persecute us, your Church, your only Church, the Catholic Church. I was one amongst them, for I was an Evangelical Pastor. I have now returned to your Church. I know what we used to preach. I know we used to persecute the Catholic Church as many nations currently do. For the USA has traditionally persecuted Catholics, for not only Communist China and USSR has. We have many enemies throughout the World. We are the most persecuted religious community in the world, and that in itself is testimony that we are in union with you Apostles.

    I pray to you oh Father for those that you have given to Jesus and are amongst the ones reading these words. I do not pray for those that are doomed for eternal damnation, but for the ones that belong to Jesus. Do not let them be perpetually deceived by the Whore of Babylon and the Powers of the Anti-Christ. Deliver them so that they can join us in the Feast of the Lamb of God, the Catholic Church.

    “Up! Be off, this is no place to rest” Micah 2:10

    • It is all true I have been converted to Catholic since 1980 and all they do is tell lies since before we were a Country to keep their children from seeing the truth Like the Bapist they put more Faith on john the Baptis baptizing Jessus than the do on Jesus however everyone John baptized had to be rebaptized in Acts 19 and I wouldn’t have a KJV of the Bible in my house their missing 7 books and modified version of the Bible I want the true word of God.

      • dear heidi

        There is much sin in the world now. This includes lies, and people who tell them, and people who believe them. Just trust Jesus and you will be ok.

  59. Here is an interesting little video clip.

    There are creeds and then there are creeds.

  60. Who is the Bilbe talking about?

    The Protestant Church, White Anglo Saxon Protestants, the New World Order of Bush the Father, Bush the Son, and the Republican Party (AKA: The Apocaliptic Beast).

    1

    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2

    With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4

    And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Who is the Bilbe talking about?

    The Protestant Church, White Anglo Saxon Protestants, the New World Order of Bush the Father, Bush the Son, and the Republican Party (AKA: The Apocaliptic Beast).

    • Dear Juan,

      Since liberal Catholics, atheists, and the Democrats are now in power, how do you still fit this Protestant beast into the picture?

    • All of these can describe the Catholic church as well as anything – especially purple and scarlet vestments and gold sacramental cups. But the key is in verse 5: The mother of harlots. The original whore church (the mother church) gives birth to harlot churches that are just as bad. There is no doubt this was the protestant churches splitting off from the early Christian church (which became the Catholic church) but retaining at least some of the abominations of the original. Martin Luther may have corrected 95 points (in his eyes) but he missed the only one God really cares about: Keeping His commandments. I’m afraid that all churches that do not honor the true sabbath will be held accountable. The whole world will follow the beast and almost all Christians will take his mark, most of them without even realizing it. I pray you won’t be one of them when that time comes.

  61. Hi Marianne,

    Here is an interesting little video which destroys some traditions.

  62. 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come
    under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

  63. http://aporlareconquista.blogspot.com/

  64. THE SECOND COMMING
    Revelation 20:7-15

    When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.

    He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, 7 to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

    They invaded the breadth of the earth 8 and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

    The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.

    I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

    The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

    Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death. 12 )

    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

  65. Your asking me how I still fit “this Protestant beast” into the picture since liberal Catholics, atheists, and the Democrats are now in power. My answer is that you may be right! We are witnessing the fall of the Beast, the WASP Beast ruling over the USA. Nevertheless, the Whore of Babylon, which is the Protestant Community (AKA as the Antichrist’s Church), is still alive and awaiting to ride on top of another Beast (Nation). In the last days, it is written, Satan will actually deceive all nations to come and fight against us, the Only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church at the End of the Millennium. So, it is not over yet.

    So, the Beast (Republicans) might no longer be if full power over the USA. However, the “three apocalyptic frogs” that come out of its mouse are still infecting the world with its deception. You might ask me? What is it that which is so infectious? What is the message of deception? What is the perverted preaching of Satan, the Anti-Christ, to deceive the Nations?

    The deception is the preaching of a Coming Millennium, that is, a thousand years in which there will be one ruling power over the whole earth. You heard me right, the Preaching of a coming Millennium! In its religious conception this is called by Protestants (those more closely affected by the Antichrist’s deception) the Second coming of Christ where He will Reign for one Thousand Years. However, I may add that is a perverted interpretation of the Scriptures worthy of the great deceiver that disguises himself as an angel of light. The truth is that there is no such thing. There will be no kingdom ruling for one thousand years; for that is already taking place. Christ has been ruling the World through the Church for the past 2000 years. In fact, the Second Coming of Christ is the Eschatological Judgment, also known as The Last Judgment, Final Judgment, Judgment Day, or Day of the Lord is the final and eternal judgment by God of all nations (Revelation 20:7-15). That is the Second coming indeed, Revelation 20:7-15!

    A secularized version of this deception, that is, the belief that there will be a Nation Ruling the Earth justly and with perfection for a thousand years, is portrayed in the New World Order ideologies of Bush the Father, Bush the Son and the Republican Party. It is also called the Novus Ordo Seclorum. It is the wet-dream of world domination of the White Anglo Saxon Protestant over the World indefinitely. It is an ultra nationalistic movement that, looked at it from the outside, is very similar to Hitlers Third Reich. Protestant Domination of the Whole World, the Masons, the Illuminati, the New World Order, or, in Evangelical terminology also known as, the Second coming of Christ, the Messianic Kingdom, the One Thousand Years of Peace, etc.

    As you may very well know, this is the belief of every single Protestant on the face of the Earth: that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom on Earth. All Bible only Evangelicals are awaiting eagerly for the Second Coming of Christ where he will come to rule the World from Jerusalem, and where the USA will rule the world with Christ for one thousand years. However, the Catholic Church has called these preachings the Antichrist’s deception, as well as an “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

    Quote:
    “676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come
    under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    So, there you have it. Now you know why it is not over. Now you know why we called them the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, the Beast. It is funny, for they themselves are the ones that started calling us this horrendous names accusing us falsely. However, it has turned out to be that they are the Cult, the Sect, the ones that Persecute the Church in the “name of God.” Isn’t it odd? They persecute the Church of Christ in the name of God, just as Saul of Tarsus did before he became Saint Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles.

    My advice: Desist persecuting us, the Catholic Church. We are not the enemy. The enemy is the deception that comes out of the mouse of the Beast. Do not listen to her. Do not believe the Whore!

    Sincerely,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Dear Juan,

      I think the Catholic and Protestant denominations BOTH have doctrinal errors to correct. Until they correct these errors, neither is ready for the coming of Christ.

  66. Dear Marianne:

    Catholics do not have doctrinal errors. They are the beloved bride of Christ. We have the guarantee in one institution of the Church in charge of Doctrine. It is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. Its sole purpose is doctrine. Your local priest, or Bishop, does not have any authority to modify or tell you anything different to what the Church teaches. Yet it may happen, for they are humans susceptible to fail and sin. Nevertheless, rest assure. There are no doctrinal errors that come out of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith.
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/

    Protestants are anti-Christian. They are not another church. On the contrary, they are under the influence of the Anti-Christ. Their doctrine is a mix of truths with falsehoods. They are confused, for they twist the scriptures so that they adapt to the purposes of their leader, the Anti-Christ. Yet, the faithful are in ignorance. Many are like Saul of Tarsus before his conversion to Saint Paul. The leaders are definitely anti-Christs. Their objectives are purely political, that is power and world domination.

    The second coming of Christ, as according to what Protestants say, is a perversion of the truth. It will never happen that way. There will not be 1000 years of Christ ruling on Earth. Their preaching is pure rhetoric to aid them on continuous world domination. Who is they? The Freemasons, the Illuminati, the New World Order, or, in Evangelical lingo, the Second Coming of Christ where “They” will rule with “Christ” for a thousand years.

    The second coming of Christ, as according to the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, is described in Revelation 20:7-15. It is also know as the Day of Final Judgment Day. There are no one thousand years of a worldly kingdom.

    We Catholics believe in one thousand years of Christ Reign on Earth (The Millennium), but not as an event that is going to take place in the future. It is something that has already started. His Kingdom and ruling started when Christ resurrected 2000 years ago. The Catholic Church is his Kingdom.

    It is for that reason that I could not compare Catholics and Protestants. It would be as comparing Good and Evil. You cannot compare two things that oppose each other. Do you understand what I say?

    Please keep in mind I used to be a Protestant Pastor. I returned to the Catholic Church in 1991. I know the subject, and the Bible, pretty well.

    • Hi Juan,

      You say that you were
      1-A catholic
      2-A protestant
      3-A catholic

      In your terms then
      1-good
      2-evil
      3-good

      So having tasted good and evil
      you now conclude
      that you know the subject
      and the bible pretty well

      Why have they all profaned the commandments of God?
      For him who loves The Lord keeps His commandments.
      Therefore one institution or another institution
      Or one nation or another nation
      as a whole are corrupt.
      Look around you is this not so?
      Only God is Good!
      We have all fallen!

    • dear Juan,

      If you know the bible well, then you that Jesus is the only way to the Father, and that He never said to use his mother to get to him. She is not a Co-Redeemer. This is an insult to the atonement of Christ. Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father in His name. He never told us to pray to his mother.

      The trinity is a construct of the catholic church, which is perpetuated by most of its protestant offspring. There is only one God, and that is the Father. This is repeated many times in the epistles. The Lord Jesus was beneath him in glory and authority before he came to earth, and while he was on earth. The glory and authority he has now he has gotten because the Father gave it to him, indicating who is “in charge.”

      There also is no place as purgatory. That is made up. There is only heaven and hell. You cannot pray anyone out of anywhere, after they are dead.

    • Dude, Try reading Rev. 20:4-7. There is a resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living when Christ returns. Then 1000 years later there is the second resurrection of everyone else and the white throne judgement. The 1000 years are mentioned in every verse. Or maybe the Catholic bible has removed those verses like it removed the second commandment (Don’t pray to statues etc.).
      Oh, and the last 8 chapters of Ezekiel are all about the millennium, in great detail. And I could go on. The “Day of the Lord” refers to Gods 1000 year reign (a day is as 1000 years with the Lord). It’s all over the bible, at least MY bible.
      And if we are in the actual 2000 year millennium (I guess Gods math is off) of Jesus through the Catholic church it sure is not living up to expectations. Are you saying that the persecutions of the dark ages, the crusades, and even the priestly molestation scandals of today are part of Gods plan for governing the world? I thought the swords were to be turned into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks and the nations will learn war no more. Whatever happened to that?
      No sir, we are not by any means in the “millennium” promised by Jesus. We are on the brink of destroying ourselves and our planet and we will succeed in doing so if Christ does not get here soon to stop it.
      But you may be right about the millennium in one way: Only Gods elect people will make it into the millennium:
      Rev. 20:6:Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.
      I am afraid that most Christians may not make the first resurrection because they are not keeping the commandments of God, specifically the sabbath. These people may not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years – at the final judgement. I fear you have created your own self-fulfilling prophecy and for you there will be no millennium.
      Time to get out of Dodge.

    • Juan,
      I think you need to buy a new bible. Apparently yours is missing a whole bunch of pages. Christ’s return is all over the place – old and new testaments and a 1000 year reign is clear. It is the “Day of the Lord” in the OT. Catholics disregard these scriptures just as they disregard the real second commandment (idols, etc.) and the true sabbath. When Jesus returns you guys are in trrroouuble!

  67. Amen and amen Marianne,

    Jesus Christ was OBEDIENT unto death and it is God the Father that raised Him up by His Power.
    And seated Him at His Right Hand.
    And God put all things under Jesus Christ ‘ feet.
    It is the command of God
    ‘I am The Lord, thou shalt have no other gods before me
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
    Thou shalt not take The Name of The Lord thy God in vain
    Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy
    Honor thy father and thy mother
    Thou shalt not kill
    Thou shalt not commit adultery
    Thou shalt not steal
    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
    Thou shalt not covet

  68. Marianne:

    If you do not understand the things of the Earth, how could you understand the things of heaven? If you are like John 6:66 and are scandalized because he tells you that you need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, what makes you think you could understand Mary and the things of heaven?

    The Eucharist is the Source and Summit. You must first believe in the Mana that descended from heaven. Otherwise, you will not be able to understand anything else. You must be born from above, born again. Otherwise you will not see him in the Eucharist. We both would waste our times terribly trying to get you to understand. You see, this is similar to what Jesus said to Peter after Peter figured out he was the ONLY son of God that descended from Heaven, the Messiah: “My father who is in heaven has reveled that to you.” So, that means that you will not be able to understand.

    • Dear Juan,

      I understand who Jesus is, and I am born again.

      But you are evading the issues of false doctrine by the Catholic church.

      I am not being exclusionary, because the protestants have false doctrine also.

  69. Are you sure?

    • Yes, Juan, I am sure

      1. that I am born again

      2. that you have not addressed the issue of false doctrine in the Catholic church….Mary worship is idolatry, the trinity contradicts scripture, and there is no purgatory.

      a challenge for you. go look in the bible and see if you can find scriptures supporting
      praying to mary
      that Jesus said he was God Himself, and not the son of God
      that there is a purgatory.

  70. Marianne:

    You cannot understand the Scriptures but until you believe Jesus is God himself –the word of God that became flesh. However, you cannot believe that Jesus is God but until the Father reveals that to you –like he did to Saint Peter. Thus, I will commend you to Saint Thomas the Apostle. I am asking him to intercede for you so that the Father might have mercy on you and show you his son. Be patient. He cannot give you a gift you will toss away because you are to little to understand. He will give you those things you need in due time so that you do not brake them and toss them away.

    On the other hand, if you used to believe and don’t believe now, it might mean that sin is in the way. But that usually happens to Catholics who are excommunicated (their faith is taken away). Faith is taken away from them and they start to dry. Hopefully they will return once they feel the void and loose sight of Eternal Life. It is a very lonely place when we loose our faith in God. I tell you that by experience. It actually happened to me. Nevertheless, God was merciful and he showed me His son. He opened up the Gospel of John so that I could understand. The Gospel of John tells us who Christ really is. However, you cannot understand who he is unless it is reveled to you by the Father. So, do not try to figure it out on you own. You won’t be able to. It is like salvation. Faith is a gift from God, as you might already know.

    Please, do not misinterpret me. I am not telling you not to read John’s gospel. I am just saying you will not see the message unless it is given to you from above. You cannot see the divinity of Christ with your human strength and intellect.

    I think you might understand now why is it I do not reply to your other questions. It is because you do not believe Christ is God yet. That is the DOOR. If you do not enter though the DOOR, you are not inside. If not inside, you cannot understand the things from heaven (the doctrine you inquire about). In other words. The same thing that happen to Nicodemus is happening to you. You do not get it yet! You need to be born from above in order to understand. To be born from above means to believe in Jesus as God, the God, the Creator himself.

    Sincerely,

    • Dear Juan

      I am already aware of who Jesus is, and that he has a divine nature. Please answer my questions. Thank you.

    • Just a little history lesson pertaining to the apostles, Mary and all those who have died in Christ. They are not now in heaven to listen to your prayers and even if they were I don’t believe they have the power of God to read every mind on planet earth. The whole concept is crazy and Antichrist. In that I mean that the Jews don’t believe in heaven as a destination for the dead. Jesus said many (14) times that the dead will sleep until he returns in glory. Then will come the first resurrection. If everyone is already in heaven why the need to resurrect anyone?
      Yeah, I know – it’s in the catechism. Yada, yada, yada.
      Try to find it in the word of God.
      Good lick.

  71. Hi Marianne,
    I have some proof that the Dome of the Rock was erected on land owned by Rome.
    The Dome of the Rock, being among a complex of buildings on the Temple Mount, (the other principle building being the Al-Aqsa Mosque) is one of the holiest sites in Islam. Its significance stems from the religious beliefs regarding the rock at its heart. According to Islamic tradition, the rock is the spot from where Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel, even though the dome wasn’t built until after Muhammad had died. In Judaism the location of the stone is venerated as the holiest spot on Earth, the site of the Holy of Holies during the Temple Period. In Christianity it is believed that during the time of the Byzantine Empire, nearby the spot where the Dome was later constructed was where Constantine’s mother built a small church, calling it the Church of St. Cyrus and St. John, later on enlarged and called the Church of the Holy Wisdom.[19] On the walls of the Dome of the Rock is an inscription in a mosaic frieze that includes the following words:
    “Bless your envoy and your servant Jesus son of Mary and peace upon him on the day of birth and on the day of death and on the day he is raised up again. It is a word of truth in which they doubt. It is not for God to take a son. Glory be to him when he decrees a thing he only says be, and it is.”[1]
    This appears to be the earliest extant citation (verses 3:45-47) from the Qur’an, with the date recorded as 72 after the Hijra (or 691-692 AD), which historians view as the year of the Dome’s construction.[1]

  72. Marianne:

    In your previous post you said that you do not believe in the Trinity. You also said that Jesus has a divine nature. You believe exactly the same thing Jehovah Witnesses believe. I do not know if you are aware of it. Jehovah’s witnesses together with Mormons are not even regarded as Christians. One of the conditions to be regarded as a Christian is to believe Jesus is God, and of course, in the Trinity.

    Muslims also believe Jesus is a prophet, a divine prophet, like Mohamed. Muslims and Jews, both believe in the God of Abraham. Yet, they do not believe Jesus is God.

    The Catholic Church (the only Church of Christ) believes in the trinity and deity of Jesus (not only divinity, but deity) Deity means he is God. Divinity means he has God Like Attributes. Deity means he is God.

    So, you do not believe Jesus is God the Creator. Therefore, you are not a Christian. You have not been born again. You do not believe in the Eucharist, and probably, you do not believe he resurrected in flesh either (but as some sort of ghost, if at all).

    Marianne, you are not a Christian, by strict definition. You believe in Jesus in the same way Muslims believe in Jesus, as a divine prophet, just like what Mohamed is to them.

    Muslims even understand Mary better than Jehovah Witnesses. Jehovah Witnesses are one of the most radical anti-Christian cults. They are in full throttle with the Anti-Christ. Are you aware of that?

    Please, do not take this personal. I am just stating what is widely know amongst even protestant ecumenical circles. Those people that do not believe in the Trinity, or by that same token, that Jesus is God, are considered anti-Christians by definition.

    You have a right to believe in whatever you want. Please, do not get me wrong. I am just exchanging definitions. There is, for example, another definition to us Catholics. Freemasons are a group we cannot belong to. Their doctrines are irreconcilable and incompatible with the Teachings of the Church. Membership to a free masonic groups auto-excommunicate us. Same thing goes to not believing Christi is God, or in the Trinity. As Catholics we have an obligation. The obligation to surrender our minds and will as a religious gift to God, Christ and His Church (Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium). This is the way in which we fulfill the first commandment of Exodus 20: Love your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all you being. We trust him fully. We trust in Christ and we trust in the Teachings of his Church, regardless of its human member. And in occasions, we are very thankful for some of its human members. We call them Saints, for the Holy Spirit operates through them.

    Us Catholics have an obligation. Our obligation is Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium. On the other hand, in America you can believe whatever you want. There are no rules and you can even have a satanic church. It is OK according to the Law of the Land. We are grateful for those laws. If it weren’t for those laws, Protestantism would be the OFFICIAL RELGION of the State. It’s bad enough with Republicans being Protestants. It would be intolerable to have the Protestants Run the Nation continuosly. So, we thank God for religious freedom. That way, Catholics are so because they wish to be so. It is not an imposition. You can be a Catholic that is under Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium. If you want, you can be a lukewarm Catholic. However, not for long. Believe me. Faith is like an onion. It is made out of layers. If you start peeling, you might end up with nothing. On the other hand, if you build, your faith grows.

    What is at the Heart of the Catholic Faith? What is the Source and Summit? Jesus Christ, the Eucharist.

    Most probably, you cannot understand what I am saying. You must be baffled as Nicodemus was when he hear Jesus talking about being born again. It does not surprise me. I was like that. I could not understand a thing when I was loosing my faith after being a Protestant Pastor. I do not wish for that to happen to you. Nevertheless, I was in the stage you are at. Not believing Jesus was God and the trinity. Would you like to know what is the next stage on the path to loosing ones faith? The next step is to believe Jesus was the Devil, the deceiver. After that step, there is another step. It is not to believe in the Devil. Right after that step, you stop believing in God altogether. On this stage it gets really cold. Life has no meaning whatsoever at all. You make an inventory of your life and realize you are poor (At least I was poor. Thank God I was not a millionaire, otherwise I would have stayed there, without God, for the rest of my life).

    I am going to share a secret with you. On this last step, if you are a free mason grade 33, your “brothers” coach you and give you a perceptive. Their perspective is that you, together with them, are the Illuminati. In other words, your organization becomes GOD to the people. It is your “mature” responsibility then to “perpetuate” the deception that GOD actually exists, when in reality it does not. So that you may understand me. It is like the story of Santa Claus. Children believe in him. Adults do not. Well, the analogy is good to explain what Freemasons 33 and the Illuminati regard themselves as. They regard themselves as God (same roles parents have with their little children regarding Santa).

    Both Santa Claus and God are but a fairytale?

    Thank God that is not the case. I do believe Jesus is God, the Creator himself. One God in three distinct persons.

    I am similar in a way: I am a European Citizen (Spanish), I am also a Mexican Citizen, and I am also an Lawful American Permanent Resident. Three different citizens, yet one single person (it is a joke I use to exemplify the Trinity)

    Sincerely Yours,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

  73. The Holy Trinity: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

    • Dear Juan,

      The catechism does not quote scriptural proof as to WHO the Holy Spirit is, outside of being a Helper. An angel is a helper also.

      Jesus is described as being an image of the Father, just as Adam was when he was created.

      The expression “Godhead” in the bible is not defined as Father, Son and holy spirit, although these 2 do exist separately, along with angels and other heavenly beings.

      The scripture and the epistles emphasize that the Father is God, not all 3 of them, although the son and the holy spirit do have some divine qualities given them by the Father.

  74. Mary – Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

    • Dear Juan,

      I agree that Mary was an exceptional saint.

      This is catechism, not scripture.

      But the Catholic church has no scriptural basis for calling her an advocate, mediatrix, queen of heaven or co-redeemer.

      There is only one way to the Father and that is Jesus. We are not to pray to her, or exalt her as tradition encourages people to do.

  75. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
    (paragraphs 1030 to 1032)

    • Dear Juan,

      What you present is catechism, not scriptural proof. There is no biblical evidence for a purgatory.

    • Give me one bible verse on purgatory. The catechism (or the Koran or Book of Mormon don’t count).
      You will find it in roman paganism however. Hmmmmm.

  76. Juan also needs to see that the foundation of the Catholic church is based on falsity. They claim that Peter was the first “pope,” and the Catholic church was built on that foundation. But Peter was not assigned to the gentiles, but rather specifically to the Jews. Read the 2nd chapter of Galations and this will soon be evident. DavWms

  77. I agree on that, Marianne. But Juan comes on strong defending the very things Jesus spoke against. Like the Pharisees, there is blindness involved. I am just hoping to put a bit of doubt in his foundations that he may be saved. DavWms

    • David:

      Isn’t it the other way around?!?!

      Who is putting the doubt, but the one who speaks the truth. I am.

      YHVH speaks the truth. I am speaks the truth.

      • HI Juan,

        I know you are sincere, but you, and the Catholic church, have not yet shown scriptural basis for the doctrines and theories you hold as true.

        I would expect the same proof from a Protestant denomination.

        Catechism is not proof. It contains little or no scripture to back it up. It is “opinion.”

        You need to go straight to the bible and get the passages that prove your point.

        For example, show the bible passages where Mary worship is approved and that purgatory exists.

    • Juan is not lost he and are Catholic we do not belong to the anti Christ I will pray for you
      Heidi

  78. we, the catholic church, wrote the bible. The bible is fruit of the tradition of the catholic church. Thus, we are the doctrinal authority.

    Testimony that we are the only church of Christ is 20 centuries. We started when Christ founded us. We will be here when he comes, on the Last Day, the Final Judgement.

    We do not need to proove who we are. He gives testimony of us. We will prevail until the Final Day.

    • Juan,

      The entire Bible was written by Jews, not Catholics. Saint Peter was not a Catholic, either. Read your Bible. There is no pope. When Peter died, there was no “successor.”

      • Anothe false statment Jews didn’t write or beleive in Jesus Christ and you failed to tell us what faith you are.
        Heidi

        • Heidi the Bible was written by Jews, like Juan stated; the Bible was written by Jewish people who started the Christian Faith, expecially the Catholic’s. The Bible contains The Old Testament written before the appearance of Christ, The word christianity did not even exist at this time. It wasn’t until the New Testament where Jesus makes his appearance is when Christianity starts to gradually take shape.
          The first Bible was various documents that was placed together which were actually written in Hebrew and Aramaic and then translated to Latin, English and numerous other languages. The Apostles whom are Jews and Jesus started preaching their doctrines which were considered heiratical to the general jewish population espcially the Romans. These people were starting the beginings of Christianity.

        • That is probably one of the funniest, and stupidest things that I have ever read. LMAO.

  79. How can you say the bible is the FRUIT of the tradition of the Catholic church, unless finally you are admitting that the tradition of man has exalted itself above the authority of THE LORD???

    We know who you are.

  80. What is Protestantism? Is it really the religion of the Antichrist?

    The First Universal Epistle of John says in chapter 2, verses 18 and 19, that those that have departed from us, the only Church of Christ1, are Antichrists. Thus, the Anglican Rebellion lead by King Henry VIII, as well as Martin Luther, John Knox and John Calvin.

    What wrong did they do? With Henry VII it was a matter of the American Inheritance. The Pope had given newly discovered America as a gift to Spain (a part of it to Portugal, that is why Brazilians speak Portuguese). However, Henry did not want to have to share the Spanish Kingdom through his legitimate wife, the daughter of King Ferdinand, son of Charles V. Henry was very greedy. He was not an spiritual man and lust was his driving force.

    I would like to pause to explain the definition of an Spiritual man, versus a Worldly man. Worldly men and woman, live according to their instinct of survival. The fruits of the instinct of survival are greed (also known as financial stability), lust (also know as the desire to have as many children as possible with as many woman available in order to perpetuate the species). The instinct of survival is the animal in us, who is also responsible for envy and the death of Abel. The instinct of survival kills and destroys the competitor. Thus, a worldly man or woman is a normal human being. What is then an spiritual human being? A spiritual human being is one who is aware of Eternity, that is, of his own eternity., Thus, the instinct of survival in a spiritual man/woman is under control, much as a horse is controlled by a horseman. In an spiritual man, there is someone in charge of his/her instincts (I must point out that I am not referring solely to manners and education. Even tough those things are a fruit of the Spirit). A Spiritual man is him who is aware of the Eternal Journey, and thus has the ability to focus in guiding the horse through places a wild and savage horse might not want or dare to go. This is the case of our Lord Jesus Christ. He led himself to Calvary fighting against his human instincts of survival. He laid his life willingly. That is indeed the nature of the Spiritual Man. The Spiritual man/or woman, no longer abides by the laws of the Survival of the Spices. Why? Because the Spiritual Man has been born again in the real sense of the word (not in the way Protestants pervert the definition of being born again). The Spiritual man is born from above and thus, has crucified his own flesh with Christ (figuratively speaking). In other words, He is in control of the Horse because he is fully aware Death has been defeated for him.

    Adultery. Well, Protestantism offers a great solution for those persons that divorce and want to get remarried. The Catholic Church does not divorce marriages. It annuls them under certain and vary particular exceptions (when they never took place). Thus, if a woman is married under the Catholic Church, and has children that become teenagers; it is very difficult for the Church to grant an Annulment. If it did, it would be unfair to the children of the Sacramental Marriage, for the would be called bastards if there was an annulment. Yes, indeed, the children of the Sacramental Marriage would became bastards (The loving Church is not going to do that). However, the worldly woman that is filled with rebellion, decides to leave the Church because she cannot get an annulment. She goes ahead and marries under the Protestant Church. However, that marriage is not recognized as a Sacrament by the only Church of Christ. The Church calls it ADULTERY. The children of that eventual “marriage” (adultery) are bastards, and the Church will not baptize them. Otherwise, it would put in jeopardy the spiritual being of the children of the legitimate marriage. An example of this event is in the origins of Anglicanism, which separated a whole Nation bringing violence against those that opposed the rebellion and lustful King who was following his instincts of survival and economic security. When this happens, there is great rebellion again st God and his Christ. Thus, Protestantism is a resource used by those that follow their survival instincts, those that rebel against Christ and his teachings. Those that are anti-Christ and pro survival of the spices (worldly women and men). Protestantism is not for the Spiritual men and women. Protestantism allows lust, and survival instinct to flourish, denying the Spiritual Man. Protestantism denies Christ by allowing divorce. That is why it is an Antichrist. Protestantism is the Religion of the Anti-Christ, for it denies the resurrection of Christ de facto and in the lives of the faithful. Protestantism is a perversion, for it claims the Resurrection of Christ is the justification to “start a new life” and remarry every time you so desire. Protestantism is a perversion of Doctrine of Christ and the Church. It is an abomination that only brings the downfall of societies and nations. It persecutes those that oppose them, as Henry VIII did. It locks them out in prisons and mental institutions. I MYSELF have been threatened by followers of Henry VII with imprisonment. I have had to get a Cease and Desist Notice from an Attorney at Law to defend myself!

    So, in a very simple manner, I have expressed why it is that Protestantism is an Antichrist. It denies Eternal Life by means of allowing the instinct of Survival, or the Survival of the Species, to be above the way of the Cross of Christ –which is the Path to Eternal Life. It is a given that only those who have been chosen have the ability to distinguish who Christ really is, and thus, understand what he really means. In addition, these writings are not intended for those that do not believe. For, even if they were to understand what I say; it would sound completely absurd to them. Why? Because they do not believe in the Resurrection of the Body of Christ and ours. They are of the world and currenlty belong to Satan.

    Sincerely,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    1The Catholic Church is the Only Church of Christ as according to the Declaration Dominus Iesus, written by the Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith in 2000. Cardinal Ratzinger is the current Pope Benedict XVI
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    • Hi Juan,

      It looks like this debate continues. I like you, Juan. You are a good man.

    • Juan,
      Speaking of Popes, what do you think about Saint Malachy – the catholic saint that was given a vision of all the future popes which he has so far correctly identified.

      Was he a nut job or did he receive a true message from God?
      What do Catholics think about this?

    • G-d said men’s hearts are continuely evil. I guess, except your Universal heart.

      Only G-d the Father can judge, and Christ will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Not because people are written in the Universal Church book of life. The Universal Church does not declare who is Christian, or not. It is up to Christ.

      The Universal Church is so full of paganism, it is why so many people followed Martin Luther. As they do to this day.

  81. Synopsis

    The adultery of one man separated a whole Nation, England, from her legitimate husband, Christ –the Papacy. This is indeed what Henry VIII did. Today we find the fruits of that horrible rebellion. Many more follow their example. Adultery has received a make over and no longer is called evil. Perverts call it to be a “new born” Christian. What a deception, worthy of the great deceiver! This brings us to the next question: Is the Anglo Saxon Protestant Church an Anti-Christ?

    • Juan if they be igorant let them be igorant and like the Lord said trow not pearls before Swine lest they trample them under their feet

  82. Marianne;

    Dave Hunt does a GREAT JOB of arguing that Rome is the Woman who sits on the 7 hills in this video:

    Kittii

  83. Hi
    i havent went through and read all the posts, my they are just too long! i just wanted to add my 2 pennies worth.
    from the research i have done, in the bible it tells us she will wear out the saints, apparently most catholic pictures of saints have yellow glows round the head? that is derived from the paganistic worship of the sun god, so they are indeed wearing out the saints. also pictures of jesus n the cross have is it INRI above? apparently thats a cathloic thing too and has nothing to do with jesus being king of the jews…..it is to do with some asrtology thing and the rose cross…introduced by catholocism. what i find most interesting is that the antichrist is described as giving voice to the false prophet and will perform many miracles to deceive the elect….i find it fascinating that it seems only to be mostly catholics who experience stigmata and see the holy mary images….arent these indeed false miracles? and giving voice to the image?
    i saw on internet recently a photo of the pope asking muslims for peace, in fact he was seen kissing/agreeing with the koran….type pope and muslim into google, its fascinating that now muslims want to kill the pope…….the beast and the whore maybe? it is also interesting that fatima is mentioned in both muslim and catholic religions but i havent done enough research myself yet to find what if any is the link…didnt want to make this a long post as there are so many long ones on here.
    god bless everyone that their eyes will be opened and the truth sets you free!

  84. Dear Marianne,
    Thank you for the information in this article concerning the various cities and their geographical features making them candidates as possibilities for the symbolic woman of Revelation 17. I was not aware of this info – especially Istanbul(Constantinople). I tend to agree with you that this is probably the city which would be the seat of this woman. But exactly who the woman symbolizes is the heart of the matter. You brought out very good points about Turkey being the place where all of these religious elements come together. If you look at the history of this country and this city, it involves Islam, Catholicism, paganism, occultism, the philosophies and thinking of the Greeks, and even the first century, Christian, Apostolic true chuch of God. Constantinople was the vibrant, thriving capital of the Holy Roman Empire at one point in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. I think this points to something bigger about her identity. This woman in Rev 17 is referred to as Mystery Babylon the Great The Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the Earth. ALL false religion is abominable to God. And they all spring up from the ancient Babylonian mystery religions. And ALL false religion is headed by Satan. So, let us consider these two religions of Islam and Catholicism for the moment. Both are very large, consisting of over 1 billion people, both are very politically powerful (the Catholic Church still is), both have a long history of persecuting the saints and those martyred in the name of Jesus(hundreds of years), and BOTH seem to want a hand in splitting Jerusalem (the pope wants to make it an ‘international’ city). While I agree that Islam plays a big role in end-time events, I believe it is just part of the woman’s identity. You can’t cut away the Roman Catholic Church from this identity. The Roman Catholic Church is rife with paganism, and while they say their doctrine is based on what is written in the Bible – if you actually read the Bible (which they discourage and tell their members they don’t need to do), it CLEARLY is not. Both these religions are very dangerous, sinister, have and continue to use deception and lies to mislead people into or keep people in spiritual darkness. These, along with other false religions (ie.new age, occultism, atheism, eastern oriental religions, etc..) will contribute to deception and confusion of people on a grand, world-wide scale(which is happening). Really, this is just touching on this topic of who’s who in the book of Revelation, but I hope you find this perspective something to look into. Hope we will talk again. Thank you. Yours in Christ Lisa

    • hi Lisa

      Thanks for the insights. IT is always good to stay alert to all possible interpretations of bible mysteries. The way things look, we should find out in the near future.

    • Lisa, were did you hear or get your information that the Catholic Church members are discouraging and preventing the reading of the Bible from? That sounds like one crazy person or persons, even Catholic’s would look strangly at. As from Kindergarden to senior high I never heard of any Pope, Bishop, Priest, Nun or any other Catholic preventing me or anyone else from reading the Bible! When I was at School we were allways reading the Bible and were acting out characters from the Bible in plays. Even the teachers would read with us various passages and stories from the Old Testament and New Testament. The only thing I found sinister was the fact that towards the ending of my Senior High School years their seemed to be a lot more emphasis on other religions Toaist, Buddism, Islam, Jewish & Hindusim etc rather than more emphasis on Catholism or other Christian religions, for the duration of 2 years.

      • In case you didn’t know, during the dark ages the church outlawed bibles except in the monasteries where they were chained to the walls. Anyone caught with one could be thrown in jail and even tortured (remember the inquisition?) Until the invention of the printing press and the protestant reformation only the church could read from the bible, and this allowed the church to develop a set of doctrines (catechism) that could contain all sorts of non-biblical stuff, and no-one would ever know the difference. It worked for 1000 years, and now they have their own bible, which is OK to read nowadays.
        Just a bit of history to think about.

  85. their doctrine is based on what is written in the Bible – if you actually read the Bible (which they discourage and tell their members they don’t need to do
    The only place I have ever heard this lie is fron non-Catholic Why?

  86. Hi i kno am late in this..and u giv sum damning effidence 2 go along with ur opinion..1 thing i must question tho is, an am sry if any1 brought this already as i didnt read all comments, but u said..

    The woman (city) in Revelation 17 also sits on many waters. Istanbul “sits” on or near the Sea of Marmara, the Golden Horn Rver, the Bosphorus Strait, the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea, the sea of Crete, and the Mediteranean Sea.

    I question that because the angel told john the waters represent multiludes of ppl ( “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages ) not actuals water, there4 not oceans and seas no???

    • Lin,
      As you say the waters are not water but countries around the world. Since the woman represents a church it is either the church of Rome or the church of Istanbul (Islam).
      From the description of the woman (Harlot), she wears fine purple and scarlet (like bishops & cardinals) and uses a chalice of fine gold. I do not see these things or any others in use in Islam. I saw them every Sunday when I was a catholic however.
      And she rides the first beast of Revelation. This is the 5th beast of Daniel and follows the 4th or the Roman empire which in 568AD became the Holy Roman Empire. At that time it consisted of 10 countries (Kings) but the Pope declared the 3 Aryian nations heretics and sent the Roman legions to wipe them off the map (The Heruli, Visigoths and Ostrogoths), leaving seven crowns intact. The prophecy also says that this beast would last 1260 years (42 prophetic weeks) which is exactly how long the Holy Roman Empire lasted (till 1798). There is no other empire with a church attached that fit those requirements. NOT the Ottoman empire, that’s for sure.
      And remember that the beast would receive a fatal blow but then in the end time be healed or resurrected? Well I believe the Holy Roman Empire will soon be resurrected – a merging of the Vatican and the European Union into a great church-state with the Pope at the head. A unified Christian church, including most Protestants, and mandatory Sunday worship. The Pope has been working on this for years – it is no secret.
      Here are the kings mentioned in Rev. 17:
      5th. Holy Roman Empire
      6th. The Papacy (The one that was, is not and yet is.)
      7th. Revived Rome (European Union)
      8th. Revived Holy Roman Empire
      The Antichrist comes from the 6th beast and he comes in the name of Jesus and many (most) will be fooled.
      Could a Muslim terrorist or even an Imam do this? No way.
      Could the Pope? He already has 1.2 billion Catholics believing he is the Vicar (substitute) for Christ. And his title: Vicarivs Filii Dei in latin numerals adds up to 666!
      Need any more proof? There is a lot more if you just look for it with an open mind.
      Good luck and God bless!

      • hi james,

        Where does it say that the antichrist comes in the name of Jesus?

        Why do you think only Catholicism matches the description of the woman? The prophecy was about the future, not the present, although the system would be tied to the past, which is Babylon. Today, physical Babylon is under Islamic control. Istanbul, formerly Constantinople, also sits on 7 hills, and is controlled by Muslims.

        The woman is a religious system that is tied to a political system. This could also describe Islam, which is both, or Luciferianism, which is tied to the New World Order.

        • Hi Marianne,

          If Babylon is being brought up then shouldnt we wonder y the catholic bishops especially the pope all wear the Dagon Fishhead mitre? Pagans who worshipped the sun God Dagon, wore hats that resembled fishheads.. Take a closer look at the priests’ hats..Did i mention Dagon was the FishGod of Babylon?

          funny lil addition..the catholic church changed their sabbath to SUNday when saturday is the 7th day of the week..God COMMANDED.. REMEMBER THE SABBATH…AN KEEP IT HOLY!!!

          REV says John was astonished when he saw what this church was, y do u think? obviously it will b the church u least expect..wats mor surprisin than it bein the church that was supposedly the tru church?

        • First of all, the BABYLON of the Harlot is an ancient “Mystery” religion from the time of Babylon. (Baal worship). It represents all of the pagan practices that have gotten into modern Christianity including the holidays of Christmas and easter. Everyone knows that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25 but that it was a pagan roman holiday that the Christians were forced to accept into their religion. There are over 50 such practices in current use and they are the Babylon that will be destroyed. The real Babylon was destroyed millennia ago and plays no part in the second coming.
          As for the woman, here is my wisdom:
          The first beast (empire) is the Holy Roman Empire. It started with ten kingdoms and then the Pope destroyed three that did not agree with the churches views on Christ. Also it lasted 1260 years just as the prophesy said it would.
          The second “kingdom” (which includes the Antichrist) is the Vatican which gained its sovereignty in 1929. It is just the first beast without the military power. The woman (church) rides this beast. The church uses purple and scarlet (banned in Islam) and has great riches and has fornicated with (controlled) many Kings. Read the description to some people who are totally ignorant of scripture and ask them to chose between Islam and the catholic church and see what they say. Go with the obvious – God didn’t want this to be that mysterious. After all, Martin Luther, John Calvin and others figured it out 500 years ago and founded the Protestant reformation on it.
          The next (7th) kingdom is the revived roman empire or the EU.
          Only one left to go and “It is of the seventh.” This will be the revived HOLY Roman Empire – the Vatican joined with the EU – not a stretch of the imagination and the Pope is already working towards that.
          Every beast follows the previous one. All in a perfect line. Smooth as silk. No need to jump to a new religion or a different empire. God is only concerned with his own church. He’s not coming back to fix the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist faiths. He’s got enough problems in his own. Keep it simple and it all fits in place.
          Finally, as for the so called “New World Order” there is no scripture to support this. People believe that since the Antichrist will enforce his “mark” and most believe the mark will be a complicated world-wide scheme to chip or barcode every person on the planet, that the Antichrist must be a great political power – head of a one-world government.
          But consider this – if the pope is the Antichrist and his mark is forced Sunday worship and his kingdom is revived rome (EU) how easy would it be to demand Sunday worship in such an “empire?”
          In case you haven’t heard, the council of Bishops and Cardinals recently met in South America and suggested exactly that! Their agenda includes not allowing worship on any other day! (So far no penalty of death has been suggested but give them time and power and see what happens).
          Anyway, I don’t see a New World Order forming anytime soon – or ever for that matter. A one-world government won’t fly when you have China, Islam, Africa, the US, EU etc. all together under one law and leader.
          Also, if the world gets together in peace how will the end time wars take place. The idea of a united world flies against the world at war we see in prophesy.
          I can see the EU and the Vatican linking up, but not the whole world. Keep it simple and it all fits in place.
          Oh, as for the Antichrist coming in the name of Jesus, he himself said “Many will come in my name.” referring to the end time Antichrist and others. I believe he meant every Pope including the last one – the anti-pope. The popes have always been considered to be Jesus Christ – Vicars of the Son of God. Catholics will tell you that Christ is not coming for a millennium rule – his kingdom is here now under the auspices of the popes.
          Check out the prophesy of St. Malachy. He predicted the last 111 popes with perfect accuracy. The current pope is the last numbered pope. There will be one more – Peter the Roman, the only named by name. His reign will be during the tribulation after which the “…The seven hilled city will be destroyed and the terrible judge will judge his people. The End.”
          Most experts believe it either refers to the end of the church or the end of the world. If he is correct, then the seven-hilled city MUST be Rome. And he will be judging His people, not the Islamists. End of the mystery folks – straight from the catholic church itself (or at least from one of its saints.)
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8kCYk1LgSA&feature=related
          Check it out and tell me what you think.

      • Just like to state to everyone that in Islam, Muslisms do in fact believe in Jesus. But not as the son of God, but as a Prophet. Muslisms believe when Jesus comes back all Christians will have to become Muslim. However in Christianity it states you must believe Jesus is the son of God and if you don’t, you do not believe in him at all.
        This is a interesting fact I have learnt from both Islam and Christian people.
        Another interesting thing I know is that their is a statement in the Bible their will be 2 beings claiming to be the one true Christ. One Christ will be true the other false. Apparently, the Muslism I hear are expecting Jesus as well. I think this False Christ is the one that will fool the world and cause much blood shed and even stage the murder of the legally elected Pope to place himself as Pope in the Vatican.

        • I know the Qur’an pretty well and I understand what they believe about Jesus and the he will return with their savior the Mahdi. The Mahdi will destroy the Jews and Christ will either convert or kill all the Christians. Wonderful prophesy all and all, if you’re Islamic. The only problem is the Qur’an is a total crock if shit and we should not pay one bit of attention to it. It won’t happen!

      • Just Like to say in the Bible it mentions about believeing in Jesus as the son of God and if you don’t you just do not believe in him at all. The interesting thing is Islam only see’s Christ as a Prophet and is also expecting Jesus return and have a attitude I heard from a Muslim that everyone will have to become Muslim. Hence, those whom won’t will simply in Islamic style will have to be put to death. However, the Jews also believe Christ is only a Prophet as well, but their not stating mass murder for anyone that doesn’t believe in their faith. Another interesting fact is Communism doesn’t believe in religion and very much a dictatorship. Further, at present time in Germany Nazism is on the rise again and getting stronger.

        • You are right on about Islam. I hope the become converted after the war of Gog (Ez 38-39) when God makes himself know to the entire world after destroying a huge Muslim army and their homelands. By the time the tribulation starts they could be completely out of the picture.
          As for Nazi Germany, I believe there will be another Hitler who will take over the entire EU and start WW3. I believe this man will be the King of the North who wipes out the King(s) of the south in the first battle of Daniel. There is actually a lot of prophesy about the rise of the 4th reich if you understand the symbolism. Plus it doesn’t take much imagination to think that Germany might start yet another world war. Once again, current events are falling right into place worth bible prophecy. I’m giving it 16 years to the reign of the Antichrist so that should be just the right amount of time for Germany to rise and the middle east to get nukes and for the oil to start to run out (it started this year actually) and then all hell will break loose.
          And lets not forget the natural disasters, diseases, pestilences etc. The 7 seals are about to be opened. We’re almost there!

  87. Also are u aware that tho, as james mentioned, the time of the 10 contries in the past, the catholic pope and EU r in works 2 form a New World Order which includes makin it a 10 country world????

    Thats a FACT..look it up!

    • hi Lin,

      I acknowledge that the Catholic interpretation is a popular viewpoint that has much support. I was just looking at alternative views.

    • I find it interesting that you mention that Lin, because when you think of the World Order, I wander about the Euro Currency and how a lot of the European countries are using it these days as if they were not many countries but one. Could this be a small sign of a sinister little step for someone Pschopathic enough and intelligently mad to use it to their advantage.

      • I believe that the so called New World Order will simply be the European Union 9revived Roman Empire) and that the last (8th) king of revelation will be the combination of it and the Vatican thus restoring the Holy Roman Empire – the first beast of revelation.
        So were nearly there already!

        • You know another interesting think on my mind being Catholic is that it is possible, that the last truely elected Pope of the Catholic Church will most likely be murdered, for the next false Pope to sit in. I think it will be a person whom forces himself in and makes himself Pope. Something like when Napoleon Bonaparte took the crown of the Pope and Crown himself which is very arrogant. So this Pope will be arrogant as well and bring forth a new relgion.

          • You may be right. I heard a long time ago that the last pop would be known as the anti-pope, an obvious reference to the anti-christ. Just remember that Satan can take over a Pope as easily as anyone else and he probably took over many of them during the dark ages and inquisition.
            All we know is his name will be Peter, so look for that.

  88. Hi again..

    And i repect that..

    Another interestin view is the 1 about Prince charles..the passage,”The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.”apparently matches up 2 him because his coat of arms has each of those anuimals on it..or sumthin along those lines lol.. didnt do much research on that view, feel free 2 check it out..

    • hi Lin

      When I read “mouth like a lion” I think of mahmoud ahmadinejad, and his big mouth.

      • Hi Marianne

        His mouth is amazing! It interesting to hear his words how after the Crusaders considered to “kill the infidels” (Muslims), hundreds of years ago that know in the present Islamic fundamentalists call Jihad (holy war) in otherwords “kill infidels” (West) using similar words in the past by Crusders coming out of the mouths in the East is just plain war cyr hijacking.
        However, this Iranian Mahmound Ahmadinejad has some real eyebrow lifting and shocking ideas. His words are just plain “genocide”. The edicts of his Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to “wipe right of the map Isreal” and to know that he is also the same man whom call the United States “the Great Satan”. Thus, it is this Ahmadinejad whom believes in the Shia doctine that this 12th Mahdi will turn up when the world is out of control and in war as his sacred duty to spread to the globe his holy jihad and end the west and forcefully convert the world to his Islam. Hence, this is why he is so directing his attentions and striving desperately, absolutely and hellbent in gaining large numbers of nuclear arms. The ridicules and foolish thing is that Russia is selling weapons to Iran the very people whom wouldn’t mind backstabbing them in the futher. Anyway when it comes to Revelations and you hear people like this one can’t stop thinking of mass and extreme worldly problems with religion and government bodies at each others throats.

    • Sorry, but those are the first 3 kingdoms mentioned by Daniel. Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece only in reverse order since John was looking backward in time, not forward like Daniel.. The 4th of course was Rome, but John was already in Rome and was describing how it had devoured and taken on some of the aspects of the 3 previous empires. But this beast (always an empire, not a man) was not the current Rome of John but the future Holy Roman Empire which consisted of 10 separate kingdoms overseen by the emperor and the Pope, who crowned the emperors.
      Also, this beast was dealt a deadly blow (Napoleon – 1798) but will be revived again soon as the Vatican and the European Union (revived Rome) are joined into what many believe will be a new world order. But to recreate the first beast, only Europe is needed – not the rest of the world. That ain’t gonna happen folks.
      In case you didn’t know, Charles is the last in the line of the descendants of King David – he represents the house of Israel. The royals still use the actual coronation chair as King David and the holy stone known as Jacob’s pillar for their coronation. When the real King David is resurrected Charles will abdicate the throne to him. He is certainly not the Antichrist, if that’s what you were inferring.
      Check that out!

      • You know what’s interesting I heard this rumour that Prince Charles had actually became Muslim as he meet the mufti of Cyprus Shaykh Nazim Adil 1993. Apparently, he has been allways visiting mosques, even dressed up in your typical Islamic clothes and have lectured about the virtues of Islam at Oxford. However, theirs no proof that Prince Charles had turned Muslim, but their also no proof that he hasn’t also. Moreover, another interesting rumour is that Prince Charles had received a micro chip implant under the skin which can track a person. Accordingly, about his sons William and Harry, as I was growing up they were allways saying that they did not want to be a King of England, they just wanted to be average males and that is why Queen Elizabeth is also grooming Beatrice to take the thrown. Finally, Queen Elizabeth attitude over the years has seemed to be one of displeasure and unhappiness at Prince Charles behaviour and even looked disgusted at times, it is almost like she doesn’t want her son to be a King.

        • paper doll,

          i cant speak about the muslim rumor but as 4 the micro chip, its not jus a rumor..if u go 2 youtube u’ll c footage of charles an his sons bein implanted with the chip..

  89. Hey James,

    I’m sry but this should be said..With all this debate in here, i feel that the bigger picture is bein overshadowed..Whatever ur interpretation, mine, or Marianne’s, it is brilliant that ppl r openin their eyes an wanting 2 c the truth. The book of Daniel says that in the last days there will b a vast increase in knowledge..You may have a piece figured out an sum1 else may have another..AN THATS OK..all pieces r needed 4 that same puzzle and if nothing else we can all agree on 1 thing..No matter if we figure out if we’re in the last days an who is the enemy, we will never find out wen the last day will b..until that day of course.”So be prepared, for you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. Just as a man can prevent trouble from thieves by keeping watch for them, so you can avoid trouble by always being ready for My unannounced return.” Keep researchin, preach the truth an keep praying an livin in God is all we can do..

    • I think everyone who searches for meaning in bible prophesy gets the big picture. If we didn’t we wouldn’t take the time and effort to try to figure out the details. Jesus commands us to prophesy so I’m sure he wanted us to figure out the meaning behind it. My method is to go with the obvious and check the history books to confirm or refute my ideas. That’s why I tend to keep it in Gods church and his known kingdoms and try not to jump around the planet looking for explanations. I also assume it is about His laws and not the laws of man and the Antichrist will come from the church and not a civil government.
      But you Islamic AC believers, don’t worry, there will be retribution against them in the war of Gog and Magog (Ez: 38,39). But only because they attack Israel, not because they are a false church. God doesn’t care about false religions unless his people begin to believe in them. This is why he will destroy the elements of the Babylon Mystery religion (paganism) that exist in the Christian churches to this day. Google “Paganism in the Christian church” and see just how rampant it is. The ask yourself, if you were God, would you rid these things from your church when you come to reign over it? I’m sure he will. He will destroy the Harlot and return the church to the way it was when he left it – just like the church of Philadelphia he praises in the beginning of Revelation.
      And don’t forget, when the AC arrives and forces his mark, taking it means spiritual death, even if you are a firm believer. “Many will be deceived.”
      The devil is in the details so lets get it right.

      • hi James,

        But look at a map of the ancient roman empire….much of present Europe is missing.

        http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/map-empire.html

        Half of the modern countries that were part of the empire are now Islamic.

        • But all the original 10 heads (except for the three Aryan kingdoms destroyed by the early papal state) are still included – plus 17 more. The revived empire is larger than the original.
          Where is this new Turkish or revived Ottoman empire today? Will it be here soon? Are there plans in the works? And what do they have to do with the kingdoms and beasts of Daniel and revelation? There is no continuity, no direct relationship to what John was talking about.
          Each one must follow right out of the previous one, from Babylon to Rome to the present. And it must have to do with the church that Jesus left behind – the first three chapters of Rev, are all about His churches and whether they were doing good or bad. It sets the agenda for the rest of the book.
          Keep it as simple as possible and the truth will jump out at you.

        • Oh yes in ancient pagan Rome they sure liked power and eat up almost the whole of Europe and had a lot of the Middle East as well. I know they never went near my forefathers land Scotland (to wild and untamed people) nor were they even able to actually totally make Germany theirs.

    • Antoher interesting thing that I hear at present time going around which is just equal to a trickle in the sea at the moment, is that all the Gods of every religion is the same God as Christianity with similiar beliefs, going around. Hence, I heard something similar from a Muslim Leb going to my Technical College that went something like this “that the God of Christianity is the same God of Islam” or ” Christianity and Islam believe in the same God”. I thought No! it isn’t and don’t say they are!. Sure their are many religions in the world with God/Gods/Goddesses and great belief in God. However their Gods are not the same God as in my Christian faith nor are they he.

      Thus, such a notion brings about the idea of a World Order aswell and a connection to the suppose women that sits on 7 hills. I wander will this beast that will suck in the whole world in it’s evil be one that presents all the Gods/Goddesses in every religion all over the world as truly one. Thus presenting himself not just as this false God, but also faluse Pope/prophet and leader dictator.

      • You know there is a worldwide religious conference coming up next month in Brazil in which every religion in the world will be represented and the goal is to try to all come together to find common grounds that could be the basis for a new universal religion. I don’t see something that radical ever happening. I believe that the new world religion applies only to Christianity – the rest don’t matter. This is already happening – just follow the Vatican news and you will see how almost all the Protestants are coming back to the mother church – under the Pope as leader. If this is the prophecy, than it has been going on for ten years already. I don’t see anything else likely to happen in time for the second coming.
        And the new world order is already here. I believe it is only the revived roman empire that will be combined with the new church (EU) forming the 8th king of revelation – a revived Holy Roman Empire. That is also in the works so there is very little else that needs to happen to fulfil that part of the prophecy.
        We are almost there!

  90. Theres just so many links connecting the catholic religion as the opposition here…I am a catholic myself and i understand the need 2 defend our religion but its plain as day that sumthin is wrong here..Fellow Catholics who r defending the faith here, lets 4get all interpretations an go back 2 basics…Why would Our pope tell us do not go 2 jesus Christ 2 confess our sins..go 2 him..HE sed this in the early days of bein deemed the Pope! What gives him that right??? Or lets get even more basic..2 the commandments we go :-books r being kept frm the bible,, this is not the will of God, We worship idols, this is not the will of God, we confess our sins 2 man, this is not the will of God,these ppl have taken endless lives!! Are we that blind 2 believe the catholic religion is doin the works of God????? Do we kno POpe John Paul II history???? This man is not a man of God ..It is sad but we catholics need 2 wake up!

    • Hi Lin

      I think we see this now in all churches. The pastors expect all to go to them for the answers, instead of God. This makes them necessary for salvation, etc. and justifies a nice salary.

      • sadly true..

      • You’re right. Remember that the Woman (Whore) is the mother of many harlots so most of the offspring churches (i.e.. Protestants) will still take the mark of the beast because they refuse to keep the true commandments of God. Jesus will fix all of them when he returns but the Catholics will suffer the most corrections of all.

    • Conggrats Lin, you are on your WY to the truth. I was a catholic until recently when I got interested in prophecy and how accurate it is, especially if you find the correct interpretation. It took me 6 months to finally denounce my old faith and pick up a new one and I am so happy I was able to learn the truth before it was too late.
      You know, the current pope is going to be the last one before the anti-pope (Antichrist). The next one will be know by the name Peter the Roman and he will preside over the church during the tribulation and thru its eventual destruction, this according to the catholic St. Malachy who predicted the last 111 popes with perfect accuracy. His vision showed him the church’s destruction and it sure looks like he was right.
      God bless you in your search for the truth.

      • James, whe can i read mor on st malachy and his vision? seems interestin!!

      • Actually, in Catholism it is written in the back of the Bible Revelations, so it is not like the Vatican did not know of things to be in the future and even sister Lucy (Fatima story) a Catholic knew of the Tribulation the Catholic church is going to go through. I Think about how this Peter the Roman will come to Power. I think that he will force himself into this Vatican power and by doing that this will end the Vatican in destruction as it may well be him that murders the last truly elected pope that may well be Benedict. However, I hear things like to pray for the truely elected Pope that he will not be harmed when this Peter the Roman turns up and for the Vatican to weather the rotten storm as best it can until the restoration by the one and only true God. Not the false God.

        • There is a flaw in your logic here. No-one could force himself to become Pope. The church would not respond to strong-arming. He would never be believed or followed. He has no army (except maybe the Mafia?) to keep the Vatican guard from tossing him in the dungeon. Remember, he “comes in peaceably” according to Daniel and fools the whole world. He will look like Christ, not the devil. He’s too smart for that.
          And it will not be him who destroys the church, but God. Babylon is fallen! refers to the pagan aspects of the modern church(es). He will return his church to what it was when Jesus left 2000 years ago. He’s after the organization, not the people which is why he calls his people out of it before he returns. Most will probably ignore that call, unfortunately.
          I heard the call a while ago, and I heeded it. I pray you will be able to do the same.

          • No flaw in my logic just misinterpretation here.
            Actually, this person can force himself into the Vatican to be Pope by simply being your all charming fellow at the start like you said untill sucking everyone in. When I say force it doesn’t mean by guns blazing, they’re are plenty of ways of getting what you want, like simply getting someone else to do your dirty business. (Look at Obama how well he specks and does things with such force of tone), Force can be used in so many different ways it doesn’t allways mean physically, it can be mentally or even politically. Also when I say destroys the church, I mean fundamental beliefs of Christianity to set his own ideology in place, but like all things this may well take some time and underhandedness. But we must realize that a organization is also part of it’s people and the people makes up the organisation. No people no organization.

    • Lin I’m Catholic too, never heard of anyone stopping me to go to confession, or reading the Bible. Don’t believe John Paul II is the Anti-Christ although I believe he knows a lot about the predictions of the future of the Church which sister Lucy whom saw Mary (Fatima) revealed to him. I don’ believe the anti-christ will be Benidict eithier. But I do believe something big is coming and nasty, directly targeting the Vatican and Christianity. When you think about it, this Anti-Christ hates Christiantiy in all it’s forms. Therefore with one that has such hate for Christ and thinks only of himself as God over others, what does one do but try to be nice, persuasive, dignified, regal, delicate, attractive, appealing and canning at first then forceful, threatening and demanding to finally violent, agressive and murderous. Thus, I think that the last Pope elected by the Vatican may well be murdered to make way for a false Pope. But I think the world will have to be a lot more of a turbulent place than what it is today.

      • hi Paper Doll

        It looks like there is a bumpy road ahead for all in Christianity, and we have to hold on or fall off the ride.

        Whatever evil one Christian leader gets into, he will have plenty of company from other “faiths” and denominations.

        it is time for a paradigm shift, and not look to leaders for leadership. It is time to look to God only.

      • According to St. Malachy (who predicted the last 111 popes) indicates that the one after Benedict (Peter the Roman) will be the anti-pope and that the catholic church will be destroyed at the end of his reign. We don’t know if he will be an elected pope but I assume so. Otherwise he could not effectively take over the church and all its believers.
        Remember, Satan is clever and knows the bible better than you or I so what he will try to do is to get his followers to do something that will draw Gods wrath (chaps his hide) in the time of the tribulation.
        How better to do that than to get them all to break one or more of His commandments? Difficult?
        Not at all.
        Satan has already infiltrated the early Christian church when the Romans were still in power. They forced them to keep all of their statues and other graven images and made them move the sabbath to their day of SUN worship. The church had to remove the second commandment to cover their asses and pretended they had the power to transfer the sanctity of Saturday to Sunday.
        Now all the anti-pope has to do is make sure everyone goes to a church full of statues, crucifixes, paintings, stained glass windows etc., every Sunday. The current pope has already suggested mandatory Sunday worship for all its members and NO worship on any other days.
        They must understand the prophecy and yet they are doing their darnedest to fulfill it.
        The anti-pope will nothing more than to continue current church policies, only make them mandatory. That will be his Mark of authority.
        Will you be fooled?
        Most true believers will.

        • i think that tho ppl may not believe wat u r sayin, as they hear these words, it becomes a possibility an there4 if an wen these things play out , an it becomes mor an mor obvious, ppl will not b fooled..or i hope so

          Thats y i luv these debates bcuz u hear so many diff views an ur subconcious stores it away..Whatever view is rite, these debates helps us all become the wise 2 the point where we’re not fooled wen most important..

          • Lin,
            I’m glad to hear you say that. I have several catholic friends they swear I’m crazy but refuse to spend the time to read the bible in order to check it out. So I tell them, you may not believe me now but someday soon after I may be gone, hopefully you will see the prophesy playing out just as I said and you will remember what I said and do the right thing.
            If I can make you think about it then I have succeeded in my task.

            • O yea definitely, our mind is a sponge,as much as they may think u crazy all uve told them, tho unknowingly, is stored away so trust me wen i say they’ll make the right decision wen need be..i firmly believe that

            • I find their so many various ideas and possibilites. Their could be in the World a mass of problems converging all together from different angles with Christianity, Islam and Judism having it all out, Communist nations playing up and even natural disasters getting worse than what they are now. In Australia their was a really weird thick red dust storm in the city and surburbs no one has every experienced before, it was like a absolute frightening shock. It was almost a feeling of a Doomsday Scenario.

  91. Hi Paper Doll

    I think you have a good point.

    Restricting ourselves to only one interpretation of anything, when it is a warning, may limit our acceptance of reality when it finally comes to pass.

    This world is getting so evil now, that we have to look everywhere, to see prophecy come to pass on many levels, in many places.

  92. Can i ask every1’s opinion on Christmas?

    • Christmas started out as the birthday of Tammuz, the false messiah perpetrated by his mother Semiramis, wife of Nimrod who built the tower of Babel and founded the city of Babylon. Decorated trees and yule logs were part of the celebration. This is the root of the Mystery Babylon religion – the very religion that is mentioned in revelation which will be destroyed when Christ returns. This is how God feels about Christmas. (And many other pagan practices and holidays that have infiltrated the church. The early church (Popes) sanctified the holiday (then known as Saturnalia in Roman times) to appease the Romans who refused to give up their holiday. So the question you have to ask yourself is do you believe that a man can sanctify a day just because he has the earthly power to do so? Does God bow before the Pope? Catholics believe so, so you wouldn’t be alone, but as for me, I’m not buying it. If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus then do so on the Feast of Trumpets (late September-early October). That is the day he was born and it will be the day he returns also. If we will celebrate it after he returns, do you really think he will let us keep doing it on December 25th? Christmas will go bye-bye soon so you may as well get used to the fact. And for me, I’m not going to offend God by having anything to do with anything pagan. Its a tough choice I know, but you either love tradition or you love God. Take your pick.

  93. pagan holiday…..but it got converted into the birthday of Jesus..

    nothing wrong with a birthday celebration….but its roots taint the occasion

  94. I have no firm conclusion one way or another as to the identity of Babylon in end times prophecy – of the numerous cities which sit on seven hills, Jerusalem, Washington DC and Rome feel like the most likely, although Constantinople/Istanbul (former capital of the Eastern Roman Empire fell to Islam a thousand years ago), Moscow/Eastern Orthodox patriarchate or even Athens/Greek Orthodox patriarchate could also be possible.

    Worth mentioning that, with the final ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, the European Union is interesting, not least because (a) It sees itself as the successor to the Holy Roman Empire; (b) it is a fabrication of US interests working through individual member states and the UN to bring it into being, against the democratic will of its citizens; (c) the image of Europa riding the bull (Zeus) it its emblem.

    EU law-making powers are concentrated in the hands of 27 commissioners, appointed from the governing parties of each member state. The number of these commissioners will be reduced…..interesting to see if they end up with 10.

    • hi SJB

      The identity of Babylon and the rest of all this does seem to get more complicated the more it is discussed. The way things are going, we should find out something “soon,” although “soon” is also hard to define.

  95. Lucifer of Isaiah 14-4..That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! He is the KING OF BABYLON and is also the antichrist to come.. verse 12-16..
    His queen is shown in Rev 18-7..How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.Lucifer is king of Babylon and Babylon is his queen ..counterfeit of Christ and his bride…

  96. Thanks for giving us a venue for sharing our thoughts. If anyone still believes Rome or EU, or the Church is the beast etc., has to be ignorant. I use to as well, but now any one who seeks the truth has to understand its all about militant Islam.
    Now I think its about Turkey reviving the caliph. (antiChrist) Iran will accept that. Even though they are Shias, and waiting for their 12 th Imam Maudi. Same person. I read that Turkey and Iran are becoming friends. All prophecy roads are now leading to Turkey. Also, Gina made since about future prophecy being the Northern tribes of Israel. One place they were taken was U.S. I think Ez.38-39 is talking about Gog demon prince of ?. Iran, Turkey etc. invading U.S. Also the Septiguant version of Amos 7, says Gog is a demon in charge of the locust that come out of the pit. Same as Rev.

  97. Who are the 7 heads? It appears to me that in Revelations 17-9 five have fallen one now is and one yet to come. In Daniel u have in Chapt. 7-3; 4 beast- Lion (1 head) bear (1head) Leopard (4 heads) and one other. this makes 7 heads- the seculicid empire still existed at the time of the writing of Revelations. Why does it have to be Rome? It is a prophecy -not a history lession? With this scenerio the next beast in the area would be the Ottaman Empire- what say you?

    • It looks like you are confusing some of the terms used here.
      The “heads” of John are the same as the “horns” of Daniel. These refer to the remnant kingdoms of the original Roman empire. There were originally ten but three were conquered and destroyed.
      The beasts are the empires, starting with Babylon and continuing thru Rome. After that there are only “kings” or kingdoms actually – they don’t refer to individuals.
      And the prophecy is about the civilizations and their influence on the church, not the land area they came from.
      Check my article on “Is the beast Rome” for more info and details.

  98. If I may continue- the Harlot seems to me to be Isreal. in Matthew, Jesus23:37 (Yeshua) says “Jesrusalem – the city who kills the prophets” and then in Revelations 17:18 it speaks of the “great city” and then in Revelations 18:24 it ends with in her is all of the “blood of the saints” Christ symbolicly refers to Israel as both the Bride of Christ as well as the Harlot
    Cathy

    • Hi Cathy,

      I agree with you about the Ottoman – Selucid – Empire.

      I am not sure yet about the Harlot.

      In biblical times, the only one was Israel. By God’s definition, one had to first know Him to then be unfaithful. Israel was the only nation to know God.

      Since then, we have many more versions within Christianity, paganism, Islam and the rest of the world.

    • The woman can’t be Israel the nation because God would never destroy his chosen people. Now the bible also talks about “spiritual Israel” or the Christian church and this will be the ultimate bride of Christ. But first it must be purged of paganism. That is the whore of Babylon. (Babylon = paganism)
      Israel will be taught about Jesus and brought into Christianity but it will not be destroyed.
      The woman is the Roman Catholic church and the “great city” is Rome. It is the “City of Seven Hills” and the church of Rome sits on seven mountains (hills).
      Everything fits, you just don’t understand why. Once you get the why it will all make sense.

  99. Have 2 agree with james here..God wud not destry Israel as they were is chosen ppl..The book of Hosea is proof of that in my opinion..

  100. Harlot is right there right under our noses.. She was in fact is still one and the same from the old testament and new testament… Rome where the pope is currently inside that church is itself the MOTHER harlot.. Pope knew.. and announced out to gather daughters back inside… and therefore, it is not Israel that God would destory.. but north and east… Your looking at Amercia who is now with that kind of president who removed several from the Constitution. That is a warning sign.. watch closely… President already removed the freedom of speech… since he ingored the people… He also removed our rights… No matter how loud we shout at him.. He would just walk on us if we are the graves.. All I am saying.. watch closely cross world.. I see tension in the air.. so tight wound together and about to snap into half enough to start the WW3.. I can feel and taste it in the air.
    Secondly, it is the spiritual war we are all struggling now… because they ( demons ) are out and prowling already.. so arm yourself well under God..
    Thirdly, Rome does have ONE back up is.. in French.. two chruches… two beasts… why does it remind me about its history ?? And why do I feel that history is repeating itself ??

    Bless you all. I enjoy reading ;)

  101. has any1 ever realised the statue of liberty crown has 7 horns? or that her torch is symbol of the freemasons?

    • Hi Lin,

      Yes I acknowledge the statue of liberty and its origins. Unfortunately, masonic symbols are everywhere in the world.

      Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to see a statue of Jesus in the New York Harbor instead?

      • Yes! I just love how in Rio de Janeiro they have such a symbol of Jesus on this large Corcovado mountain as if he’s standing right on top of the world.

    • And the numbers on a roulette wheel add up to 666. So what? Will the Antichrist come from Las Vegas?
      The woman is a church and the US has no state religion. Sorry, nothing fits.

  102. o james..relax.. i was just mentionin the freemasons..

  103. i found this link..it has reasons proving the assumption of rome being wrong..plz read it an share ur thoughts..james, u kno alot about this so i look 4ward 2 ur reply..

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3859752/The-Antichrist-is-Not-the-Papal-System

  104. Hi James
    I tried watching that webside, but I have a problem with downloading. I end up having stops and starts and then the download begins again. My computer is a Windows XP. Anyway with what I’ve seen it looks interesting, although I did not agree about the article on Australia about “peaceful, abundant and lucky country”. This is advertising rhetoric known by Australians as just a gimmick to lure immigrants, tourism and money for politians and business people that’s getting something. The Truth is Australia for centuries hasn’t been all that peaceful, abundant or lucky. For 10 years their was a depression, We’ve had the plague, violence with aboriginals and the other way round, riots by other racial groups and relgions, extreme weather and rising costs. However, me and my bestfriend have agreed on that something is wrong with society in Australia as people are getting more badly behaved and evil doing in nature.

    • Further, I’d like to state that in a couple years time Australia will be unlivable and overgrowded if they keep migrating people in large numbers here and accepting refugees by the load. People think that Australia is a big country, however they don’t realize that the large part of Australia is desert and the livable parts are near the ocean areas. The government is ignoring the peoples cries to decrease immigration, deport non Australians with criminal records, lower food prices, bring back Australian labels, prevent people we call DO GOODERS in inerfering with the discipline of children, even make sentences for serious criminal offences harder. Their has also been a statement that the increase of population will bring hardship and great proverty, but politicans are doing foolish actions and saying silly things like our MR Rudd “we just need the right balance” and Tony Burke with his Population Control. Even my Father is saying that Australia has gone to the dogs and heading down hill because of poor Management, greed and strength to act. When I walk out the door and certain suburbs I wander to myself I’m I in a foreign country.

  105. Hello Thanks for this site- it’s needed!!!
    Here is some interesting writing from-http://www.gregwolf.com/pink/antichrist/antichrist2.htm

    Dan. 9 shows that he (anti Christ) will make his seven-years’ Covenant with the Jews at the beginning of the last of the seventy “weeks” which is to bring in “the end” of Israel’s sins and “finish the transgression” (9: 24). If the time of the Antichrist’s manifestation is yet future then it necessarily follows that Rome cannot be the Antichrist.
    10. The Antichrist will deny both the Father and the Son: “He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22). This scripture does not speak of virtual, but of actual and formal denial. But Rome has always maintained in her councils and creeds, her symbols of faith and worship, that there are three persons in the Godhead. Numerous and grievous have been her departures from the teaching of Holy Scripture, yet since the time of the Council of Trent (1563 A.D.) every Roman Catholic has had to confess “I believe in God the Father…and in the Lord Jesus Christ….and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, which proceedeth from the Father and the Son”.
    As a system Romanism is a go-between. The “priest” stands between the sinner and God; the `confessional’ between him and the throne of grace; `penance’ between him and godly sorrow; the `mass’ between him and Christ; and `purgatory’ between him and Heaven. The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son: he confesses himself to be both the servant of God and His worshipper; he blesses the people not in his own name, but in that of the Holy Trinity.
    11. The Antichrist is described as the one “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:4). This is what the popes have never done. Not even Leo ventured to deify himself or supersede God. The popes have made many false and impious claims for themselves; nevertheless, their decrees have been sent forth as from the “vice-gerent” of God, the “vicar” of Christ – thus acknowledging a Divine power above himself.
    12. In Rev. 13:2,4 we read, “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority…and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast”. By comparing these verses with Rev. 12:9 we learn that the Dragon is none other than Satan himself. Now by almost common consent this first beast of Rev. 13 is the Antichrist. If, then, Romanism be the Antichrist, where, we may ask, shall we turn to find anything answering to what we read of here in Rev. 13:4 – “And they worshipped the dragon, which gave power unto the beast”.
    13. This same 13th chapter of Revelation informs us that the Antichrist (the first Beast) shall be aided by a second Beast who is denominated “the False Prophet” (Rev. 19:20). The False Prophet, we are told “exerciseth all the power of the First Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the First Beast” (Rev. 13:12). If the First Beast be the Papacy, then who is the False Prophet who “causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship” her?
    14. Again; we are told that this False Prophet shall say to them that dwell on the earth “that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live” (Rev. 13:14). Further, we are told, “And he had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed” (Rev 13:15). Where do we find anything in Popery which in anywise resembles this?
    If, then,the pope is the Antichrist, then it necessarily follows that all who have believed his lying claims, that all who have received him s the vicar of Christ, that all who have worshipped him, will be eternally lost. But the writer would not for a moment make any such sweeping assertion. He, together with thousands of others, believes firmly that during the centuries there have been many Roman Catholics who, despite much ignorance and superstition, have been among that number that have exercised faith in the blood of Christ, and that lived and died resting on the finished work of Christ as the alone ground of their acceptance before God, and who because of this shall be forever with the Lord.
    20. That the Antichrist and the Papacy are totally distinct is unequivocally established by the teaching of Rev. 17. Here we learn that there shall be ten kings who will reign “with the Beast” (v. 12), and act in concert with him (vv. 13,16). Then we are told “these shall hate the Whore (the papacy), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire” (v. 16). Instead of the Antichrist and the Papacy being identical, the former shall destroy the latter; whereas, the Antichrist shall be destroyed by Christ Himself, see 2 Thess. 2:8.

    • You are right about one thing – the pope is not the antichrist. In fact there is no antichrist. The word antichrist never appears in prophecy. It is used by John to describe everyone on earth who denies Christ, including Jews, Muslims and Hindi. There is no evil man called the antichrist. In prophecy a beast is a kingdom, so the beasts of Revelation 13 are not people except that there is an “image” or spokesperson for the beast(s) which is the false prophet. He is the man of sin that goeth into perdition etc. He is not antichrist, but a false Christ.
      The first beast/kingdom of Revelation 13 is the one that replaced the former three (the leopard-Greece, the bear-Medo-Persia, and the lion-Babylon as the ruling world empire. In Daniel it is Rome but in Revelation it is the Holy Roman Empire which it morphed into. The Holy Roman Empire was run by the Vatican, who after the Holy Roman Empire was ended in 1898, became the second beast of Revelation 13, with the pope as its head – the Vicar of Christ. The word vicar means substitute, and the pope, according to the catholic catechism, is the earthly replacement for Christ who rules in his place till the second coming.
      His title in Latin – Vicarius Filii Dei – adds up to 666 in Roman numerals. He is the false prophet, not the antichrist. He also claims the title “Holy Father” – a term Jesus only used to describe His father in heaven. The term is truly blasphemous. The church is Babylon and will be destroyed or at least cleansed of all of its pagan practices and holidays (Christmas, Easter, St. Valentines day etc.) when Christ returns. The church (beast) and the office of the pope (false prophet) will be destroyed forever.
      The ten kings represent the countries of Europe who will unite with the Vatican for a short time in the near future, granting much power to the beast (Vatican) and its false prophet, the pope. This will be during the tribulation, but by the end of the tribulation these nations will catch on to the treachery and turn against the Vatican and the last pope (the next one, in fact according to Saint Malachy).
      When viewed in this light all the pieces fit together properly, but the so-called antichrist is so ingrained in most peoples minds that they refuse to believe that he doesn’t exist in prophecy. Oh well, that prophecy that says most of God’s people will totally miss the real beasts is proven by the popularity of the concept of an antichrist.
      So I’m sure this reply will be falling on deaf ears but I just thought I’d get it out there anyway. I look forward to your contradictions… ;)

  106. lets not forget:-
    the woman/whore/city/mystery babylon rides the beast/antichrist/666 which has 10 horns/kings and 7 heads/mountains upon many waters/peoples/multitudes.
    the 10 kings will have power with the beast 1 hour, they will hate
    the whore/woman/city

    wondering if the dragon that gives power to first beast might represent China or is just plain old devil?

    • hi Graeme

      I think the dragon is the devil. We have to wait to see who is going to help him. But we can look around and get a good idea.

      • I’m really into art and I see alot of imagers in sculpture, painting and in architecture were the dragon, snake and what I describe as a creature looking more like some large lizard or Dinosaur represent the Devil being stomped under Jesus feet and his saints as well.

    • Hey, maybe you can answer a question that I’ve had for a while.
      If the antichrist denies the Father and the Son, why would he also claim to be Jesus? This has never made sense to me, maybe you can fill me in, if you’ve figured it out…

      • hi james

        It is not clear or stated that the AC does this. He is just the opposite in character from the true Christ.

        I think this idea comes from the passage that mentions that many false Christs will arise.

        It does not mean that all of them think they are Jesus.

        They just have the “I am god, and your savior, follow me” mentality.

        • In that case explain how 2 billion Christians will all “follow the beast?”
          If the antichrist is Muslim then none of them will follow him.
          I have a big problem following the logic of it all.
          My interpretation avoids these logical conflicts so I question others that I just can’t believe at face value.
          So far, no one has come up with a believable scenario to explain how the prophecies would unfold. Even the movies like “Left Behind” etc, avoid this problem by simply not addressing it within the plot.
          Maybe I should write my own screenplay, eh?
          Bless…

      • Hi James,
        If the AC did choose to call himself Jesus it would make since to me. I say this do the fact the word “Jesus” is actually a mis-transliteration of a Greek mis-transliteration. The Emperor Constatine even mistook Jesus for Apollo, the son of the Greek god Zeus. In Hebrew Yeshua means Salvation while the name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning in English whatsoever.

  107. Be prepared the time is near constantinople will be in greek hands again. it is written in prophecies. read elder paisios a monk from mount athos who died in 1994.

  108. Well done!

    I think you are correct.

    “recep erdogan” in english (latin) gemantria = 666

    You might like this brief…
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/31135892/signs-2010v10

    Mike

  109. Hi I found out something very interesting. Apparently although Saddam Hussein is gone now, he was infact spending 500 million dollars to reconstruct and restore the ancient city of Babylon, right on top of the residence and ruins of Nebuchadnezzar’s palace. However, although Hussein’s plans were interrupted it looks like I hear that these execution plans to rebuild Babylon has still continued. Further, their is this fellow Amadinejad of the Islamic Messianic cult who also believes that they have to rebuild Babylon and destroy Israel.

    • hi kitti

      Since it does not matter to this bishop what name is used for God, then why doesn’t he recommend that Muslims call God Yahweh? I agree with this commentator.

  110. Ellen Gould White: Hillary Diane Blythe IV; & Lord Jesus Christ all add up to 666; The Last Super painting is loaded w/ 6’s I belive diVinci thought Jesus Christ to be an anti-christ. The NAS says 666 is more than one mathematical process!

  111. praise the lord

  112. After reading some of the posts here, I think I should of posted Jacob Prash’s video here instead of on
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/lucia-reveals-the-3rd-secret-of-fatima/

    I was raised an Episcopalian. I’m a nondenominational, born again Evangelical Christian now. Americans and Christians don’t know their history. Whatever I have learned I learned watching movies, however slanted they are and picking up a book here and there. Piecing it together. Most Americans don’t know about our second President: John Adams until HBO did a 7 part series. ( I read the book and watched the movie). You want to know why he didn’t get the credit he desearved for 200 years. He moved out of the White House the night before the inauguaration of Thomas Jefferson and he didn’t attend it. He only served one term unlike George Washington. Adams was brillant. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams worked on the final draft of the “Declaration of Independence”.

    HBO did a series on “The Tudors” I visited England back in the 90’s. I wanted to learn more. So I started watching this series until someone said it was soft porn. I do have some books I picked up on my trip there on Henry th 8th. The more I learned about Europe and how the Church of England was founded, made me feel that if I didn’t believe Jesus is truly the Son of God, I sure wouldn’t want to be a Christian.

    Episcopalians don’t know their Bible. They read the common book of prayer, which they recite verses over and over again. I had it memorized and it didn’t mean a thing to me. It reminds me of chanting like in the far east religions, where you empty out your mind, only to let demons come in.

    Did you know the Buddhists have prayer beads just like the Catholics? I had a patient once who was going to surgery and he refused to take his prayer beads off. That’s how I know.

    It’s my M.O. to get off the track.

  113. Chuck Missler is the one who really opened up the Old Testament and the book of Revelation for me. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1993/32/

    Before studying under him, I didn’t understand it. It’s didn’t flow. In Revelation he says the seven Churches are

    “These were actual, historic churches.” but “These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history”

    Seven Mysterious Letters

    by Chuck Missler
    The Book of Revelation

    Revelation is the only book in the Bible that promises a special blessing to the reader.1 (Many passages tell us to read the Bible in general terms. Only one book has the audacity to say, in effect, Read me; I’m special.)

    Early in my teens, I encountered a Bible teacher who heralded that The Book of Revelation is written in code; but every code is explained somewhere else in the Bible.

    That really caught my attention. And that discovery changed my entire life.

    The Seven Letters

    Ask any Bible student how many epistles (letters) are in the New Testament. He will probably answer 21 : 13 authored by Paul, plus Hebrews, which appears anonymous;2 and the seven “general epistles” by Peter, James, John, and Jude.

    We usually overlook the seven most important letters: the seven authored by Jesus personally. For many reasons, these seven letters, comprising Chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation, are probably the most important part of this book for you and me.

    Why These Seven?

    There were many other churches at that time that would seem to be more historically significant than the seven that Jesus addressed: the churches at Jerusalem, Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Antioch, Colossae, Iconium, Lystra, Derbe, Miletus, to name a few. Why did Jesus select just these seven Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea?

    Four Levels of Meaning

    There appear to be at least four levels of application to these letters:

    Local: These were actual, historic churches, with valid needs. Archaeological discoveries have confirmed this.
    Admonitory: In each of the letters there appears the key phrase, “Hear what the Spirit says to the churches”. Note the plural, churches. It turns out that each of the letters applies to all churches throughout history. As we understand the sevenfold internal structure, the uniquely tailored messages, and the specific admonitions in each of the letters, we discover that any church can be “mapped” in terms of these seven composite profiles.
    Homiletic: Each of the letters also contains the phrase, “He that hath an ear let him hear…” Doesn’t each of us “have an ear”? Each letter applies to each of us. There are some elements of each of these seven “churches” in each of us. Thus, this may be the most practical application of the entire Book of Revelation.
    Prophetic: The most amazing discovery, however, of these seven letters is their apparent prophetic application. These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history.
    These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history. If these letters were in any other order, this would not be true!

    These letters appear to fill the interval between the 69th and 70th “weeks” of Daniel 9. The Book of Acts covers about 30 years; these two chapters of the Book of Revelation cover the next 1,900 years.

    Seven Key Elements

    A key aspect to understanding the letters is to grasp the structure of their design. A careful examination of the letters reveals seven key elements in their design:

    The meaning of the name of the church being addressed (see below);
    The title of Jesus, each chosen relevant to the message to that particular church;
    The commendation of things that have been done well;
    The “criticism” of things that need attention;
    The exhortation, specific to the condition of the particular church;
    The promise to the “overcomer” included with each letter;
    The key phrase, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.”
    The Meaning of Names

    Epheses: The Desired One
    Smyrna: Myrrh; Death
    Pergamos: Mixed Marriage
    Thyatira: Semiramis
    Sardis: Remnant
    Philadelphia: Brotherly Love
    Laodicea: People Rule
    It is also interesting that this key phrase in element 7 is the final element in the last four letters, but appears before the “Promise to the Overcomer” (element 6) in the first three, leaving the promises as a kind of post script after the body of the letters themselves. This design suggests that the first three letters and the last four may share some particular characteristic. [It is also interesting that only the last four letters include explicit references to our Lord's Second Coming.]

    The Missing Elements

    Once the basic structure is evident, one also notices that two of the letters, Smyrna and Philadelphia, have no Criticism, Element 4. That’s encouraging for them.

    Also, two of the letter, Sardis and Laodicea, have no Commendation, Element 5. That’s rather grim.

    The Prophetic View

    If these seven letters really do include a preview of all church history, then where are we now? Are we, indeed, in the period suggested by the letter to Laodicea?

    Judge for yourself.

    Other Parallels

    Also, is there an intended parallel between these seven letters of Jesus Christ and His seven “Kingdom Parables” of Matthew 13?

    An what about Paul’s letters? It is interesting that Paul signed 13 epistles; but 3 of these had “duplicate” addressees: Corinthians, Thessalonians, and Timothy. That is 13 – 3 = 10 addressees.

    But three addressees were individuals: Titus, Timothy, and Philemon. 10 – 3 = 7. Paul wrote seven churches.

    Is there a possible parallel between the seven churches Paul wrote to and the seven that Jesus addressed in Revelation 2 & 3?

    A detailed study of these seven letters exceeds the scope of this brief glimpse. These remarks have been included to stimulate you to take a closer look at these two chapters and conduct your own careful analysis.

    In addition to the practical insights from the letters, you will also see another of the many examples demonstrating the evidence of careful design: the Bible consists of 66 books, written by 40 authors over thousands of years–and yet bears the clear evidence of supernatural engineering.

    T

  114. Marianne;
    I didn’t know whether to post this one here or on Rick Warren’s post
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/false-prophets-and-teachers-%E2%80%93-characteristics/
    There’s so many place this You Tube could have been plugged in. It covers so many subjects. It’s number 5 in a series of 8 on:
    The Royal Red Dragon Bloodlines 2009 Plaese watch and respond. All of these people are blood related. Our President is suppossed to be elected by the people. It’s not supposed to be a dynasty. It may not make a difference to some people but it does to me.

  115. I watched the first video. It was just some bible history. The attempt to connect Obama with the king of Jordan is a long stretch. His name might be Hussein, but many muslims are named that, even those who are not related to Muhammed. Maybe obama will be a significant player, maybe he won’t. But the reasoning is not good on the video as to why.

    I have also considered the King of Jordan and the Hasemites. They are a possibility.

    http://heavenawaits.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/4th-beast-web-4-mt.pdf

    Please do not post a whole video series. Just one as an example. I cannot review all of it…9 -10 minute videos is 90 minutes of viewing.

    While some historical content is correct, it does not mean the conclusions they come to by scattered logic is correct.

    When this much drama is put into something, it suggests a lot of embellishment of truths, so it should not be relied on completely.

  116. I am convinced that the papacy is the ‘antichrist’ movement, remember it is not ‘one man’ as Satan wants you to believe. The Vatican is the only place which is both a church (woman) and a nation (beast). The Vatican sits on many waters has power over a vast amount of followers who don’t believe in birth control (about 1.166 billion, so don’t tell me they are weak or have no influence). They already massacred thousands of Christians in the inquistions and medieval times. Lookup the history behind “Kill them all and let God sort them out” it was a cisterian monk who used the phrase when he had ordered the slaughtering of cathars (men, women and children) and the soldiers were confused on how to distinguish them from their catholic brethren.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

    This shows their attitude towards ‘heretics’ including protestants. Jesus never would spread such teachings, he wouldn’t go around chopping the heads of barbarians like some of the Catholic Popes did in medieval times. We are called to LOVE our enemies, regardless of what religion. After 9/11 we should have turned our cheeks and shown the world that we are truly Christian rather than attack and conquer them.

    I’ll ask you a question, would you have been tricked into worshiping a Muslim Antichrist movement? My guess is no. Now think how many, including Muslims would worship Catholicism and the Pope if he were to rain down fire from the heavens. Certainly a vast amount of both Catholics and Protestants would and Muslims are taught to praise/worship anyone who can perform miraculous acts.

    Another point is that the papacy (Popes) commits the two things that are considered blasphemy in the bible. They claim the name of God (Holy Father is how they are referred to by others) and they claim to have the power to forgive sins.

    Also, it says in Revelations that it will be a place that was, is not, and is again. The Vatican existed throughout medieval times, then was put into exile by Napoleon, then brought back into existence by Mussolini (evil dictator). So that prophecy has been fulfilled.

    I have found that the Vatican and Papacy fill all the requirements in Revelations to be the head of the ‘antichrist’ movements. I have also seen that most Christians having a cloak over there eyes place by Satan to deceive them and have them believe it must be a Muslim. Yes Islam will wage war on Israel, but that does not mean they are the Antichrist movement. Only the papacy (who the presidents and heads of states consult, both Bush and Obama met privately with him, Bush personally greeted him off the plane when he landed in New York and told him “You are a greater man than I” basically showing he is submissive to the Antichrist movement) would have the power to bring about ‘the mark of the beast’ and elimination of true PROTESTants. Being a protestant we’re called to protest the Pope and Catholicism. I hope this opens up your eyes and removes any hatred you may have against Muslims. We are to not ‘hate’ anyone, anytime we are doing so it is the flesh taking hold of us. If we are to be mad at anything or injustice, it would be the abomination of the Catholic church and how many disillusioned souls are coming out of that place.

    Hitler had a deal (reichsconcordant)with the Pope that he would not destroy any catholic churches. He was himself Catholic and so were his top staff. He said “I am and will always be a Catholic”. So six million Jews were massacred by a Catholic.

    • It is known that Hilters relgious views are in a great matter of dispute. Hilter though baptized as a Catholic and went to a Catholic School cared nothing for the Catholic religion and was known to be religiously sceptical unlike his Mother whom was a practicing Catholic. According to Historian Michale Rissman Hileter was influenced by Pan-Germanism and rejected the Catholic Church, leaving home and never practiced it ever again. In numerous statements Hilter had conflicting relgious beliefs as in one hand he showed someone whom was spiritual but yet was against organized religion. Hilter was a good propaganda man specking as if on the side of Christ and the church but deeply against it’s hierarchy. Hilter was influenced by Mein Kampf and justified Nazi intolerance moving into militantism which he associated “Germany and Nazism” as a rise towards a “Roman State Religion”, while mentioning the end of the Pre-Christian Roman Religion “Catholicism” and other Christian religions. Hilter actually rejected many traditional Christian beliefs such as love and compassion calling on listeners to reject these beliefs. Furthermore, were Hilter and many of his elite officers were involved in mass murder of the jews, he also was anit-gay and was mass murdering gay people, those whom couldn’t work and was infact moving in on the Catholic Church and Vatican to make them next on list of mass murders since it was known the Pope was against these mass killings and did not agree with what Hitler was doing. However, because the Pope knew what was to happen to him and other Catholics he feel silent! to avoid Catholiscism destruction by the new Germany Nazicism relgion and culture.

  117. I smell a Anti-Catholic anywhere, let me guess you must be one of those Catholic hating Protestants. I’m sure you’d be the first to destroy and butcher every Catholic in your way if you could. You also seem to fail to recognize the fact that Protestants killed Catholic and Jews with just as much zeal. If you checked the Democide statistics you’d see a world involved in much bloodshed coming from various religious, cultural and political denominations.

    However, I also like to pose your loose and poor understanding of Anti-Christ you obviously do not understand. Just because a organization like the Catholic people/Vatican doesn’t exactly have the same beliefs as protestants doesn’t make them Anti-Christ. Unfortunately, their are also Catholics whom state Protestants are also the Anti-Christ as well. (Remember all Catholic people/Vatican believe in Christ as living son of God, so do Protestants, Presbyterians, Anglicans etc.

    • Also a reminder: Islamic people only believe in Christ as a Prophet and state of no such event as Crucifixion.
    They do not see Jesus a living son of God and the word made flesh.
    • Jews also do not recognize Jesus as the son of God
    • Hinduism believes in multiple Gods.
    • Buddhism doesn’t even mention a God.
    • Atheist believe in no God
    • Their are also political organization that do not believe in practicing faith. “Communism”

    Hence, Jesus made many statements of is position as son of God. Lord of Lord and King of Kings.

    Thus, we all have to form some suspicion above of the above points mentioned.

    • Antichrist to me, just means anyone who denies Christ as savior, denies his teachings, and disobeys God. You will always find people who have these traits, in any religion or christian denomination. WE have to be alert to keep our hearts pure.

  118. As a former catholic I think I can assure you that there are no “catholic haters” here. We all believe in Jesus and what he taught. Are we “anti-Catholic?” Well I guess you can say all Protestants and all non-catholics are anti-catholics, just as we are anti-muslim and anti-atheists. Otherwise Luther would never have split from the church.
    Luther believed that the Vatican was the beast that the woman rides and called the pope the antichrist. Many modern Protestants still do.
    Ad if we are correct in believing that “Mystery Babylon” represents pagan practices that have infiltrated the catholic church we must assume that these practices will be removed before Christ can marry his bride, wouldn’t you agree?
    If you think that Jesus will soon return and take over the duties of the pope in Rome you are sadly mistaken. There will be much house-cleaning when he returns and the Vatican as it exists today will probably be completely dismantled.
    God does not hate Catholics, but he hates Babylon and He will destroy it, that much we know for sure.
    When judgement day comes and you stand before Him and he asks you “Why have you worshipped graven images and forsaken my Holy Sabbath day?” how will you answer him? – You were just following orders from the pope? You figured He wouldn’t really mind as long as you loved Jesus?
    You and many others are going to have some ‘splaining to do.
    No God doesn’t hate Catholics but he may hate Catholicism. At least what it has become over the centuries.
    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Jesus is telling us that His people are in Babylon. Not Muslims, not Buddhists. HIS people. Babylon is Christians! The Book of Revelation is a warning like those of Noah and Jeremiah. He is cleaning house again and this time it’s not the Jews but us Christians.
    Look carefully at your church – do you see perfection? Is your church completely without sin? Is it ready to become the bride of Christ?
    You need to give this some thought and study the Book of Revelation with a fresh mind.
    And remember that the Beast is not a man and the False Prophet is not an antichrist but an imposter – a substitute for Christ – he will not be against Christ. There is no antichrist in the Book of Revelation so don’t go looking for Muslims or Buddhists or anyone else. Look for a man who claims to be Christ or at least his substitute. There is a man with such a title – the “Vicar of the son of God” or in Latin “Vicarius Filii Dei” and if you add up the Roman numerals in that title they add up to 666.
    If you know this man then beware for he will lead his people into perdition.
    Come out now before it is too late.
    God bless.

  119. I never said my church was without sin, only you did James. How about your church is it without sin!. You need to go beyond Revelation and take into account the rest of the Bible as well and read into history of ancient times. Just because Revelations mentions no Anti-Christ doesn’t mean we should miss it out altogether. Remember the Bible is filled with many areas were it mentions Anti-Christ/s. Revelations is inter-connected and interweaved with the rest of the Bible and cannot be ignored.

    It is well known that Anti-Christ according to some Christians is interpretation of various biblical eschatological passages, refers to an end time leader who fulfills Biblical prophecies concerning an adversary of Christ, (substitude Christ and against christ) while resembling him in a deceptive manner. The antichrist will seemingly provide for the needs of the people but deny the ultimate salvation. The Anti-Christ appears 5 times in the New Testament.
    James The Bible mentions not just “one” but many Anti-Christs and Revelations must include the rest of he Bible to interpret.

    John wrote that such antichrists deny “that Jesus is the Christ”, “The Father and the Son”, and would “not confess Jesus came in the flesh.” Now ask yourself James Giordano and everyone what religious, political and singular individuals deny this! Their are many! Not just Islam, Jews, Hindu’s or Atheists. Even some Christians do.

    Their are scholars that interpret the Antichrist coming form Daniel 9:27 “abomination that causes desolations” and Jesus references of abominations in Daniel, in Matthew and Mark that warn of a Jerusalem desruction and of a King that is one that exaltes himself as the Anti-Christ.

    The Second Epistle of Peter mentions false teachers, false prophets that bring false teashings.

    In The First Epistle of John mentions Christians whom fail to test every spirit/s
    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, that spirit is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (1 John 4:1–3 NIV).

    Thus, their you go False Prophet/s, False Teacher/s, Substitutes, imposters, adversaries = Anti-Christ. It is as clear as a blue sky it’s all over the Bible of imposters.

    One just cannot deny as you would The many various individuals, institutions and denominations that would be involved in a Revelations Event.

  120. Yes Jockey, there are a lot of Antichrists in the world today. Every Jew and Muslim is an Antichrist according to John. But he was not speaking of the Great deceiver or the Man of Sin or the False Prophet. The term antichrist should not be confused with him, it simply refers to everyone who denies Christ. Revelation refers to a beast and a false prophet who will be thrown into the lake of fire, plus Satan. These are not the Antichrists of John.
    The clue to the false prophet is in Revelation 13. There are two beasts and if you know history and you know the prophecy of Daniel, you can figure out who the two beasts are.
    The first comes from the last beast-kingdom of Daniel which is Rome. When the Roman empire broke up into 10 kingdoms a new small kingdom (the little horn of Daniel) took control. History shows us that that was the Holy Roman Empire. Revelation 13 even specified that it would last 1260 years (538 – 1898) and it did. It also described several features of this religious empire and they all fit. Read for yourself with an open mind and you will see.
    Then the second beast comes out of the first – it was a part of it. When the Holy Roman Empire was ended it left behind a remnant beast-kingdom – the Vatican.
    The image of this beast (the Vatican) is its spokesperson – the pope. He is not an antichrist – he is a false Christ and the false prophet. There is no antichrist, only the beast (Vatican) and its leader the pope (false prophet).
    As a former catholic all of this hit me pretty hard but I eventually came to understand and accept it. The lesson of Revelation is the cleansing of the churches of Babylonian paganism before they can become the bride of Christ. Every church that thinks that the sabbath has been transferred to Sunday will be affected as will every church that uses statues or crucifixes. These were laws written in stone and the early church changed them due to Roman influence. Daniel even foretells that the beast will think to change laws and times. Church history proves him right. The facts are plain, the prophecy has come to pass. Unfortunately almost everyone will miss it just as the Jew missed their real messiah 2000 years ago. They are still waiting. In like manner yourself and many others will wait… looking for a world dictator described in the Left Behind books. You will wait for 2000 years of fulfilled prophecy to happen all between now and the second coming. But you will still not see it because you have been deceived by false prophets and you will call people like me false prophets up until Christ returns.
    I urge you to take another look at the books of Daniel and Revelation and try to put yourself in God’s place and imagine what He is trying to tell his people who are stained by Babylon. Don’t offload the wrath of God onto another religion. God only cares about and prophesies to His own people, now the Christians. The Book of Revelation is for and about Christians, not Muslims or Jews or anyone else. If that is true and I know it is, then you must figure out who the woman who sits on 7 hills is. The woman is clearly a church and she rides a beast which is a nation. A world church based in the city of 7 hills who is a nation. Who could that possibly be? Get a list of United Nations members and see how many churches are member nations and you will have your answer. And remember, it must be Christian because God does not and never has sent prophecy for religions other than His own. Once you have gotten that into your head, the book reveals itself quite plainly.

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    God is clear that the plagues are for His people who are stained by paganism – those who partake in Mystery Babylon. And Babylon will be destroyed and the angels will rejoice in her destruction. Then Christ will marry his bride – a cleansed church probably resembling the church in Philadelphia who Jesus praises in Revelation 3.
    It is a simple message really, but it gets blown all out of proportion by people who either try to sensationalize it or those who try to justify their “brand” of Christianity by throwing it all off on another religion entirely. There is an awful lot of that happening in this blog page mostly because Babylon has permeated almost all churches today to some degree. The Whore of Babylon has many harlot daughters so almost no one is safe
    Perhaps no church today is truly worthy to be the bride of Christ. Personally, I affiliate myself with the Philadelphia Church of God in Enid Oklahoma. I live in California so I cannot attend any services but if you want good information about bible prophecy go to their website: http://www.keyofdavid.com and request some free literature on bible prophecy. Perhaps soon then you will be able to see the light.
    God bless you.

  121. I was doing some history research connected with Revelations and the Bible and decided looking at ancient Pagan Rome.
    I was starting with “seven heads are seven mountains on which the women sits. They are also seven “Kings”.
    Then I looked at “Ten horns you saw are ten Kings who have not yet recieved a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authroity as kings along with the beast”.
    What if it’s possible if the Kings who have not recieved a kingdom was because they were still princes waiting to be crowned as Kings. (Princes in waiting).

    This is were I started looking at Ancient Pagan Rome on Maps and other reference books and found:

    Western part of Ancient Rome: 1. Italy, 2 Hispania, 3 Gaul, 4 Britannia and 5 Africa
    Eastern Part of Rome: 1 Greece, 2. Balkans, 3Asia Minor, 4 Syria, 5 Egypt.

    Thus, the ancient places Ancient Pagan Rome once ruled, matched up with “Modern Present Places”: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Yugoslavia, Romania, Greece, Austria, West Germany, Bulgaria, France, Britain, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Holland, Jordan, Top of Algeria, Top of Libya, Tunisia, and Morocco.

    However, I had to look up Asia Minor, Westermost protrusion of Asia: two thirds of Turkey, the region is bounded by the Black sea to the north, Georgia to the northeast, Armenian Highland east, Mesopotamia to the southeast, the Mediterranean Sea to the south (Anatolia & Europe: ) and Aegean Sea to the west. (Greece)

    Further, looked at Mesopotamia area of the Tigris-Euphrates river largely corresponding to modern day Iraq and parts of Syria, Southeastern Turkey and southwestern Iran.

    Hence, this were I started something unusual and placed down all the perspective princes/princesss down that were waiting to be Kings and Queens of a Kingdom. “Present Time”
    1.Italy: Crown Prince Vittorio Emanuele IV di Savoia-Carignano
    2.Spain: Crown Prince of Spain, Felipe de Borbón y Grecia
    3.Luxemburg: Crown Prince Guillaume
    4.Netherlands: Crown Prince Willem-Alexander &
    5.Britannia: Crown Prince Charles & Heir son: Crown Prince William
    6.Greece: Greece Crown Prince Pavlos
    7.Balkans: Crown Prince of Yugoslavia Alexander II Heirs Peter, Philip, Alexander
    8.Georgia: HRH Crown Prince Nugzar Bagration of Georgia daughter heiress Princess Anna Bagration-Gruzinsky Prince married Prince David Bagration of Mukhrani,
    9.Possible Kings of Syria, Iraq King of Jordan’s Son Heir Crown Prince Hussein Bin Abdullah
    10.Iran Heir Son Former Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi or HIH Prince Ali-Reza Pahlavi, (could also be a heir to Egypt and Sudan)
    11.Egypt: Prince Muhammad Ali, Prince of the Sa’id heir to Egypt & Sudan

    I don’t really know if this is totally right I had a few problems with the Jordan King and Heir as he is related to other middle eastern countries royal house and could possibly be a heir their too.
    I had a problem with Africa too since they have their native Princes although Brittish Royals seem to be appear to be a Head here.

    At the end of my List I ended up with “11” Prospective Princes, although Heirs come and go. Some have no heirs . So I’m leaving it open as Who knows what will happen in the furture.

    This is just a theory I have that the The ten horns you saw are ten kings . The Kings may well be government rulers. But it was interesting to do, although I ended up with 11 perspectives instead of 10 at present time.

  122. I’m a partial preterist. Revelation is a 1st century text that spoke to the people of that day. Everyone reinterprets it into whatever new influence they, in another timeframe, can image.

    The woman that sits on the beast is Pagan Rome who spilt the blood of many saints. Rome was a city of 7 hills. (i.e. Nero who killed and tortured many Christians in the gardens of the Vatican.). There were 10 kings (future) who followed. These were Pagan Roman Emperors who carried out a wave of 10 persecutions of Christians.

    Pagan Rome was also the antichrist that invaded the temple of Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. (Daniel). Thus the beast.

    You need to research early Church history to understand Revelation.

    God bless

    • hi Jim

      Curious to hear your view. If everything was fulfilled in the first century AD, then why isn’t Jesus back yet? The last thing he says is “Behold, I come quickly.” That was 2000 years ago. And why aren’t we in the millennium?

    • Yes! But we must not forget that Pagan Rome through having 7 hills infact had a expansive amount of countries that were part of her. Thus Ancient Pagan Rome cannot be Rome without these nations.

    • Actually, it how you reflect on the meaning destroyed, theirs your typical tearing a building to pieces or removing the arc of the covenant for some as directed and equivalent to destroying the temple. For the Jews destroying their temple seems to regard Islamic occupation denying them access. However, what has been around for a long time and present today is the blasphemous names against Jesus written on it’s Temple wall to me is another interpretation of destruction.

      • P.D.
        Have you ever considered that the end-time temple is the Christian church, not a physical and Jewish building? If this is true, then the False Prophet might be a high church official who causes its people to follow an abomination – such as willfully breaking God’s laws or commandments?
        Food for thought at least.

    • Jim,
      I have studied the preterist theories and they don’t hold up under scrutiny.
      First of all, the Book of Revelation was not written for or about the people of John’s time, it is for US – it is an end-time book for those who will have to suffer the tribulation just prior to the return of Christ. (Sorry, but there is no early rapture so don’t get comfy).
      Also, the beast exists for 42 prophetic months or 1,260 actual years. That never happened with Rome. It turns out that the Holy Roman Empire did last exactly 1,260 years and no other empire that ever existed lasted that amount of time, so mathematically, the Holy Roman Empire is a lock.
      The idea that NERO was the Antichrist was cooked up by the catholic church n response to the ideas of the protestant reformation. But even the pope at that time rejected the idea and the cardinals assigned to counter the claims of Martin Luther, John Calvin et al, were instructed to come up with something more believable, and 18 years later they came up with the idea that everything in the Book of Revelation is for far into the future – the opposite of preterism. But now, 500 years later, many have gone back to the first plan. That is what is in the notes of my catholic bible in fact.
      Turns out that Luther got most of Revelation right, but now most Protestants have gotten way off track and no longer believe what was taught for the last half a millennium.
      Too bad as they will be screwed when the tribulation gets here with most of them whining about how come they were never raptured before all hell broke loose. Then most will be looking for the mark of the beast in all the wrong places and Satan will get them without them even realizing it. This includes preterists. In fact according to Revelation “All the world will follow the beast.” So almost every Christian will be fooled – they will get it wrong. Sorry, there’s no “Get out of jail free card.” If you don’t figure it all out, soon it will be too late.
      I’m just saying – it’s time to be careful and diligent. Go back, study the scriptures carefully. The bible explains and interprets itself. Prophesy repeats itself. Make sure all the pieces fit. Never toss out verses that don’t seem to fit. Use the bible code – it is the dictionary of prophesy. Good luck to you and God bless.

  123. To Jockey and other Catholics:
    (From a former Episcopalian) I’m also a dispensationalist. Some would call that a heretic.

    I’m always getting off the subject. It’s my MO.

    This is in reference to your “comment”:

    “I smell a Anti-Catholic anywhere, let me guess you must be one of those Catholic hating Protestants.”

    I guess the Revolution and the Founding Fathers were anti-Catholics.

    Americans and especially Californians don’t know their History.

    A few web pages on American History.

    It’s been done on purpose, so we will have a one world government, a one world religion and one world currency.

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/04/how-anticatholicism-helped-fue.html#ixzz158a2Og8t

    Indeed, to an extent rarely acknowledged anti-Catholicism helped fuel the American revolution.”

    n 1774, Parliament passed the Quebec Act, taking the enlightened position that the Catholic Church could remain the official church of Quebec. This appalled and terrified many colonists, who assumed this to be a British attempt to subjugate them religiously by allowing the loathsome Catholics to expand into the colonies. Colonial newspapers railed against the Popish threat. The Pennsylvania Gazette said the legislation would now allow “these dogs of Hell” to “erect their Heads and triumph within our Borders.” The Boston Evening Post reported that the step was “for the execution of this hellish plan” to organize 4,000 Canadian Catholics for an attack on America. In Rhode Island, every single issue of the Newport Mercury from October 2, 1774 to March 20, 1775 contained “at least one invidious reference to the Catholic religion of the Canadians,” according to historian Charles Metzger.

    http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-11-13/housing/24655905_1_samuel-adams-moderator-leader

    Yet while many of his contemporaries viewed him (Samuel Adams) as one of the most important revolutionary leaders – an opinion apparently shared by the British, who once issued an order granting amnesty to any American revolutionary leader who turned himself in except for Samuel Adams and John Hancock, who would be immediately executed – to most modern Americans he is a somewhat vague figure.

    http://blog.gaiam.com/quotes/authors/samuel-adams

    In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind . . . The only sects which he (Locke) thinks ought to be and which by all wise laws are excluded from such toleration are those who teach doctrines subversive of the civil government under which they live. The Roman Catholics or Papists are excluded by reason of such doctrines as these: that princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those they call heretics may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of government, by introducing as far as possible into the states under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty, and property that solecism in politics, imperium in imperio, leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war and bloodshed.

    Samuel Adams (1722 – 1803)

    http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-11-13/housing/24655905_1_samuel-adams-moderator-leader

    Historian George Bancroft averred that those who signed the Declaration of Independence viewed Samuel Adams as the man who had “the greatest part of the greatest revolution of the world.” Shortly before his death in 1803 Thomas Jefferson sent him a couple of letters that were almost embarrassing in the effusiveness of his admiration.

    I had been unaware just how deeply religious Adams was. A devout Congregationalist, Adams was perhaps the last of the Puritans. It was a different time, of course, when many public men did so unabashedly, but Adams was almost incapable of speaking or writing without invoking “the Fear and Reverence of the Supreme Governor of the World.” Adams early on was resolutely anti-Catholic and almost as hostile to the Church of England, but as the Revolution progressed, and he saw people of all faiths uniting against the British he became more tolerant, urging religious liberty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Puritan_New_England

    Christmas was a target in the ideological warfare of the European Protestant Reformation.[1] Most Anabaptists, Quakers, Congregational and Presbyterian Puritans regarded the day as an abomination while Anglicans, Lutherans, the Dutch Reformed and other denominations embraced the holiday and joined Roman Catholics in celebrating it.[1][2] When the Church of England promoted the Feast of the Nativity as a major religious holiday, the Puritans attacked it as residual Papist idolatry.[1]
    The Puritan community in New England heaped contempt upon the holiday, called it ‘Foolstide’,[3] and suppressed attempts to celebrate the day for several reasons. First, no holy days were sanctioned in Scripture,[1][4] and secondly, they saw men dishonoring the Lord by engaging in the most egregious and excessive behaviors during the Christmas season.[1][4] The Puritan also argued that December 25 was ahistorical, and Jesus was more likely to have been born in September or October. They regarded the selection of the December date as an early Christian hijacking of a Roman festival,[1] and, in their view, to celebrate a December Christmas was to defile oneself by paying homage to a pagan custom.[1] The Puritan view prevailed in New England for almost two centuries.[4]

    • Most denominations are annoying.

      • Kitti Doherty Jockey and me are not American. So we can judge what’s happening there. Jockey wasn’t attacking you directly! Jockey attention was on Clarke commenting, but also a very “few” particular protestants on this website (not saying everyone’s Protestant on site obviously) and those in the world whom are infact “Anti-Catholic” & “Protestant”. Look at Ireland, those Protestant and Catholic’s get really violent their. Thus, even I will turn into a monster towards those “minority” of Protestants whom come out insultingly, violently, hypocritically and arrogantly towards Catholism. Even minority of Protestants behave the same way. Yes! Kitty you can call me too “Anti-Protestant” especially with those minority whom turn up that are “Anti-Catholic Protestants” and are big mouthed about it. Remeber in history it wasn’t just Protestants suffering, but Catholic’s too whom had their properties removed, denied positions in high place like Parliament,their titles removed and even suffered religious genocide which was happening alot in England and around Europe. Ask yourself Kitty if someone came calling you and you religion insults, Would you be nice about it. This is what’s happening Jockey and me.

  124. James Giordano:

    It looks like you foloow the Philadelphia Church of God in Enid Oklahoma.

    http://www.pcog.org/
    http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=help&q=about

    Am I correct?

    It really helps me to understand someone’s theology and where they are coming from if I Know their background. I’ve mentioned mine in several places.

    I know you are former Catholic. Dr. Walter Veith was a former Catholic, before converting to Seventh Day Adventist.

    • Yes Kittii, I am a Philadelphian. I have been following the prophecies of Herbert Armstrong and his followers and it is amazing how much of them has come true. Many things that 40 years ago almost no-one believed would ever happen, have happened. He predicted the EU 50 years before it was finally ratified – the “revived Roman empire” as prophesied by Daniel and others. Their monthly magazine The Philadelphia Trumpet is usually filled with current events that are fulfilling prophecy almost every day. This church, who has been prophesying for 60 years, is either unbelievably lucky, or else it is correct. They have almost 100 booklets on prophecy from throughout the bible. I have read most of them and they make a lot of sense. I’m an engineer and I use math, science and logic in most everything I do and read. It takes a lot to convince me in what is true. It must be backed up by facts or corroboration. I believe that the Philadelphia church has gotten things right and are teaching he truth. However I read as many differing opinions as I can, just in case I can find something new out there, but most other interpretations simply do not hold water.
      I recommend checking out some of their literature and see what you thing. They brought me out of Catholicism which I now realize is the woman who sits on 7 hills and who will be destroyed at the second coming. It took two years of study to come to this conclusion, but now I am certain that it is true.
      I realize that there are some faithful Catholics out there who are offended by this, but if it is the word of God and He wants us to prophesy in these end time, then it must be said. “Come out of her my people” He says, so those like myself who have come out must try our best to bring as many others out as we can. We are called by the Lord to do it so we shouldn’t be ashamed or timid about it. We must be firm and convincing. We must challenge them to study harder and see if we are not correct, then decide. Unfortunately, the catholic church teaches that anyone who leaves the church will burn in hell forever, so naturally they will resist. Remember – the true church is referred to as a “remnant” not the largest Christian church in the world, therefore the true church can’t be catholic – it is mathematically impossible. So simple logic tells us to look elsewhere for the truth.
      But Revelation teaches that “the whole world will follow the beast.” So in the end, there will still be only a remnant who don’t follow the beast. It must be a very small church and I think I’ve found it. It may just be my opinion, but believe me, I don’t take this stuff lightly so I suggest you give it a look-see.
      May God bless you in this endeavor.

  125. Jockey and Paper Doll;

    Whenever I post something I try to state facts or post links and not bring emotion to it. I try to not to attack someone or hurt their feelings, but I’m guilty of that just like everyone else.

    Sometimes someone will use something for emphasis or to make a point. All of us have strong feelings.

    I’d rather just share my personal experience.

    2 years ago I became convinced 9/11 was an inside job. I’m not here to convince anyone of it, although I bring it up a lot. Because of that it brought into questioned everything I was ever learned, believed or was taught. I could of easily stopped being a Christian or turn against Israel.

    20 years ago I questioned the origins of the Christian Holidays.

    38 years ago I questioned why I wasn’t encouraged or taught to read the Bible, just follow the liturgy, rituals and prayer book. Why was I never told about Jesus second coming?

    I’ve questioned why I was not taught American History and Christian History?

    I’ve questioned the Christianity of George WMD Bush
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance44.html

    I questioned the last two years why all these denominations and belief systems?
    http://11th-hour.info/Articles/Doctrines_of_Devils.html

    http://watch.pair.com/

    http://www.bridalcovenant.com/introduction.html

    The Lord’s purpose is to FOCUS ON THE LEADERSHIP of these churches, ADMONISHING THEM TO CHECK THEIR HEARTS on what they are teaching His flock and where HIS CORE MESSAGE OF SALVATION may be getting lost in their mix of doctrinal interpretations.

    These SEVEN churches HAVE HISTORICAL ROOTS AS ACTUAL churches that existed in the Roman province of Asia. The churches are addressed by the city that they were located in.

    THERE ARE ALSO PROPHETIC APPLICATIONS in these letters. One application is that the SEVEN churches REPRESENT DIFFERENT AGES IN church HISTORY and that they are progressive. This interpretation holds that AT THE END OF DAYS, TWO MAIN TRAITS will remain that Christendom is either going to be VERY ALIVE or VERY DEAD (apostate) in their teachings a very black and white approach to the Lord’s warnings.

    I’ve even questioned the church and group I identify with:
    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/sharia-connection-to-calvary-chapel-costa-mesa/

    I questioned the rapture;
    http://www.rapturesolution.com/

    I like to know what church or denomination someone comes from, because it gives me some indication of where they get their theology.

    You’re right. You’re not going to reach people attacking their church or belief system.

    • And so we go merrily along praying to false gods, making up our own false gods, praying to dead people, rearranging the ten commandments, changing the sabbath so that it fits in our schedule or rather lands on the day the “sun-god” is worshipped, honoring our idols, praying to our idols, giving parades in honor of our idols, rewriting the scriptures to make them our own…and its ok because G-d forgives us despite the fact that He told us NOT to do any of the above and let us also argue over and fight to the death our right to do the above and……..Sigh!

      • Also, the waffer does not change into Christ’s flesh, the Pope is not Christ on earth, and pouring water on infants does nothing to get them into heaven as they are innocent.

        What elce? Oh yes, the Qween of Heaven is not Mary mother of Jesus, the Queen of Heaven is a pagan Goddess and part of the false Trinity.

        How is it, I write the true truth, but I’m the hater?

        Misleading millions with paganism is what the Universal Church is doing. Come out of her!

        • …merrily, merrily….life is but a dream…lol

        • The Pouring of Water is called a Baptism or Christening, based on the New Testament Matthew 3:13-17) where John baptizes Jesus. However, their are many areas were baptism is also mentioned in the Bible. There are many ways a lot of Christian denomination’s baptize and some don’t baptize at all. However, with the Catholic Church baptism is a sacramental washing in which the soul is cleansed from sin at the same time the water is poured on the body. It is a way of making one a Christian but also penance in Mark 1:4 John was in the desert, baptizing and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins. To Catholics and other demoninations, “yes babies are innocent”, but baptism is seen as needed because we are all stained by original sin. On another note it is not uncommon to hear some Christians call other people, organizations or denominations not Christian, although we do have principles that state “not to judge others”.

          • The concept of original sin is an invention of the early catholic church. It was used so the churches could sell dispensations to their fearful followers in order to fund many cathedrals as well as the various crusades. It does not appear anywhere in the bible and Jesus never taught it. In fact, even if it existed, Christ died to wash away our sins making infant baptism unnecessary and pointless.
            In fact, infant baptism was actually a Roman pagan ritual which was eventually endorsed by the Vatican.
            Unfortunately he catholic church gets much of its doctrine from the catechism, which is a book written by men, which actually takes precedence over the bible. If the church leaders didn’t like what the bible said, they merely overruled it and actually re-wrote the bible and even changed the ten commandments.
            Do you really trust these church leaders with your salvation? Why should we believe in the catholic catechism? Should we also believe in the book of Mormon? How about the Koran? Scientology anyone?
            We must get back to and trust only in the bible. Everything else is false doctrine written by men. They can not be trusted. There is no doubt that the woman on 7 hills is the catholic church. It is big, rich and filled with paganism. It has slaughtered millions through the crusades and inquisitions. It has worn out the patience of the saints. It has changed God’s laws thinking it has the power to do so. They will soon be proven wrong. When you stand before our Lord, how will you explain that it is OK to worship on the pagan Sun-day and to ignore Hid true sabbath day – you know, the one he etched in stone for Moses with his own finger?
            Not to mention over 75 other paganisms that the catholic church figured it could simply “sanctify” with the stroke of the pope’s pen.
            We are warned about this “whore of Babylon” and asked to “Come out of her my people.”
            Unfortunately very few people will see the light. The true church is referred to as a “remnant” therefore any church as big as the Vatican can never be considered a remnant, so by simple logic, they can not be the true church. They will continue right thru the tribulation clinging to their ancient traditions. Traditions that date all the way back to ancient Babylon. Sound familiar?
            I came out of a lifetime in the catholic church. I hope I can convince a few more to come out of her before it is too late.
            I will pray for all of those who choose not to.
            God bless…

            • Well written James. Infant Babtisim is pagan. Just another example of paganism in the Universal Church.

              • If Baptism and Original sin is Paganism why is it mentioned in the Bible? These 2 beliefs go beyond the beliefs and practices of Paganism, which are a wholly different set of ideologies compared to Christianity. Thus, when we look at Baptism there are numerous instances were it is mentioned in the Bible for example: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16. Other examples of Baptism are mentioned in Romans 6:3, 6::4, Colossian 2:12, Acts 22:16. 2:38, 8:12, 8:13, 2:41, John 3:24 & Mark 1:4. Furthermore with Baptism of babies, though there is nothing stated in the Bible about this, it doesn’t mean it neither is unacceptable nor forbids such a practice, this is a issue that falls upon the parents choices. Hence, we cannot place paganism in the same spot as the Bible when it comes to Baptism. However, with Original Sin which is also called Ancestral Sin (Orthodoxy religion) these words are not directly mentioned in the Bible, they are names given to a event that occurred in the Bible that is part of Christian theology, that is humanities state of sin coming from Adam & Eve Genesis. Catholics see it as the state of sinfulness; Eastern Christians as physical & spiritual death or loss of grace, other Christian see it as cause of actual sins. Hence, if we look at the Bible this original sin doctrine is looked at in the teaching of Paul in Romans 5:12-21 & 1 Corinthians 15:22. Accordingly again we cannot just conclude this is simply a issue of pertaining just to Catechism and the Catholics.

                • Well, you pretty much made my point when you admitted that infant baptism and original sin can’t be found in the bible, only in the Christian church(es). Whether eastern or western, they both picked up the Roman pagan practices when emperor Justinian unified the Roman religions.
                  The church always finds a way to justify these practices, but you have to ask “what would Jesus do? The popes could have really helped Him out when he was here you know. Imagine if He would have thought to sell indulgences to the rich Jews of His time. Hey, they could have bought a bigger boat!
                  Oh wait, Jesus was Jewish and didn’t teach or believe in hell (that was a greek pagan concept), Oh darn, He could have made a fortune…

                  • James, your not listening, I didn’t mean the total destruction of “Original Sin” because of “non presence”. Hence, I meant the “Word” doesn’t exist. I wasn’t including the “Meaning” or the “Event”. “Original Sin” is the “name people give to an event” found in the Bible as I stated earlier, it is a “name created” to explain an “event” that happened: Genesis “Adam and Eve’s fall”. Are you stating there is no Adam and Eve sin committed that got them thrown out of Eden? Thus, just because the “word” Original Sin is not present doesn’t mean it’s meaning nor the event doesn’t exist. People give names to specific events to direct our attention to a particular area like Adam and Eve. However, Original Sin meaning was also well known with the Jews except they call it the “Seed of Sin”, long before the Romans was present. Accordingly, with Baptism of children this occurred with numerous Jewish people called “Cleansing” a very old ritual. Thus, with Christians Baptism of children this occurred 1st or 2nd Century and becomes widely practiced during the 3rd Century. It is a assumption that infant Baptism and other forms of Baptism and original sin is Roman Pagan, these events that have been called various names over time, is also events occurring in Judaism. Further, the Pope didn’t even exist when Jesus was around, how on earth could they have helped him. Popes didn’t come to existence until after Jesus death. Finally, with Indulgences your unawareness of the true purpose of this alludes you, but that which is a money making practice. Originally for the Catholics this was based on merit, a form of self sacrifice, replacing severe penances that the early church gave to people. Unfortunately certain money hungry individuals used such disgusting behaviour to abuse indulgences. Such greedy people were commissaries of various offices, Rulers & Professionals etc. Martin Luther made the Catholic Church known of these abuses of Indulgences and was not happy at all about it, which caused the Catholic Church to argue with it’s member’s about these abuses and to suppress such behaviour which took to long. As result of abuses the Catholic church doesn’t practice indulgences anymore.

  126. Here’s a couple web sites for Jim on preterism:

    http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/041109.htm

    http://jesus-messiah.com/html/preterism-hitler.html

  127. http://www.keithtruth.com/contact.html

    • Well it’s all very pleasant with Islam and Jesus stating we should love each other. However, being one who has a lot of Muslim friends and family I have observed a great many disturbing things written and acted on. Thus, I have read the Koran translated, had it read by arabic specking individuals of all nationalities to me and mentioned to Muslims, some very grave and horrifying issues in their Quran which is very unpleasant. As a result, they deny, state mis-interpretation, re-translate, ignore or get really nasty. Only a percentage look at these concerns as I have and many do. I’m just glad those percentage of Muslims see what I’ve see and are becoming very concerned too with whats written.

  128. James;
    You’re really good at writing and I see Love and careful consideration with what you write and you look like you really know your Bible. That’s what Dr. Walter Martin used to teach, that the cults know their Bibles better than the Christians. He’s right I couldn’t debate you.

    I just this minute ran across an “AWESOME” web site for you. I don’t believe in conincidences. This is the best web site on this church, yet I’ve run across.

    The Painful Truth:
    A collection of facts, opinions and comments from surviviors of Herbert W. Armstron-Garner Ted Armstrog The Worldwide Church of God and it’s daughters.

    I hope you will really look it over. The biggest problem I have with the Worldwide church of God is their Replacement theology of the Jews. It’s British Israelism. I can’t accept it.

    You have been coming to this blog for awhile now. I think you want to believe in the truth. Please don’t just skim over it or even skip looking at it. It’s your eternal salvation at stake.

    It has several videos on it’s main page and I think everyone by now knows I like videos.

    They even have a blog. I bet you could have great time debating back and forth with these former members. You visit here often enough.

    http://www.hwarmstrong.com/
    http://www.hwarmstrong.com/ptforum/index.php

    • Hi Kitti,
      I watched the video link (the other was a login page and I’m not a member so…)
      I don’t know what you learned from the video but all I saw was a series of satanic images and biblical catchphrases against a background of dramatic music. They told me nothing factual about the man.
      Now I know he had many enemies because of what he taught. He taught that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays in the guise of Christianity. And that pagan Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. Every Christian denomination, catholic and protestant with the exception of 7th day Adventists must by their nature disagree with him. Modern Protestants have concocted the silly “chip in the hand” theory to counter it and the Catholics can’t agree if the Book of Revelation is already fulfilled or is a long way in the future and nothing we should even be concerned with. Many believe we are currently in the millennium of Christ, with the pope as his substitute (vicar).
      He also taught that until Christ finishes the fulfillment of the Jewish festivals at His second coming that we should still honor them. That is too Jewish for most Christians and even the leaders that took over his church when Mr. Armstrong died, decided to eliminate them and go back to Sunday worship. What they don’t say is that they did it to boost membership as after Mr. Armstrong died God took away his blessings from the church as it became Laodicean and they had to sell off much of the church’s properties to stay afloat. They also stopped publishing and freely distributing Mr. Armstrong‘s many books and thus stopped prophesying – all to save money and make the new church leaders rich. This is all well documented by the courts when the new Philadelphia church tried to continue distributing his books for free. The new leaders tried to prevent them from offering the books even though they ere never copyrighted as Mr. Armstrong never intended anyone to make a profit from them.
      So I’m not a bit surprised that there are many people out there who despise Herbert Armstrong for revealing the pagan roots of many of their church doctrines. This video is nothing more than a lot of lame name-calling and it is no more accurate than their views on bible prophecy.
      Now Mr. Armstrong may not have been a perfect human being, but then even the apostles denied they knew Jesus, so nobody’s perfect. \Try going to the keyofdavid website and ordering a few free booklets and read for yourself what he had to say. The read the bible to check his facts. He converted me after 50 years in the Catholic church.
      But then you must remember I was an engineer and I deal in logic. Does it make sense that a man can change the word of God? Are all popes truly infallible? History tells us that is not true. I have heard some Catholics say that when Christ returns he will enter the Vatican triumphantly and don the pagan “fish hat” and sit in the pope’s throne. Really!
      Will he offer communion wafers still or will he let us lick His fingers? OK< I’m being silly, but if it’s not true, then what part of the Catholic church will he keep? Statues of His mom? Crosses to remind him of the worst day of His life? Get real – everything will change and when you look at the true history of the Catholic church, it will all have to go. Nothing else makes sense.
      Face the facts – we are going back to the true sabbath. All graven images must be destroyed. Xmas and Easter will be no more. Unless yo actually believe some dead pope or committee of cardinals absolutely and positively had every right and power to change the word of the eternal God.
      Do your really believe that?

  129. James;

    You seem to focus on the Catholic Church, probably because you were a member at one time. You didn’t address the
    Replacement Theology issue of the Jews.

    Here’s a web site too that is educational. Herbert W. Armstrong is not the first person to expose the pagan roots of the Church

    http://www.christmasisalie.com/

    You are familiar with the teachers I follow, because you have mentioned them before.

    I prayed for you today and here’s some other Armstrong blog sites.

    I think you are sincere. You are sharing out of Love. Only God can open your eyes to the Truth. You know your stuff.

    I have encouraged one blogger of one of these sites to join us. We will see what God does. I hope he comes on board.

    http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/mike.htm
    http://www.pcog.info/pcginfo.htm
    http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2010/01/gerald-flurry-
    biographical-sketch-part.html

    http://xhwa.blogspot.com/2008/08/warning.html
    http://xhwa.blogspot.com/search/label/About%20This%20Blog

    • Hi Kittii,
      You know, for 20 years I followed Jack Van Impe on his TV show and it was he that got me into the whole prophecy study. The Catholic church speaks little of it. I watched EWTN (the Vatican channel) for years and saw only one show on the Book of Revelation. He tried to convince me tat we are in the new millennium (preterism?) and that Christ may not be coming back for a long time and that the 100 years mentioned 5 times in the Book of Revelation actually means “an unspecified long time.” I didn’t buy it. There are a hundred things wrong with that theory.
      On the other hand, Revelation 12/13 predicts that the Holy Roman Empire would last 1260 years, and it did – exactly. Hmmm.
      Anyway, I followed Van Impe for many years until I began reading the literature from the Philadelphia Church of God. Until that time I knew little other than what Van Impe teaches. After much studying I came to realize several error in Mr. Van Impe’s teaching. I began to “call him” on his many bible references and after looking them up I realized he was just pulling up miscellaneous verses that sounded like they fit his version of prophecy but in fact they had nothing to do wit it.
      I’ve studied every theory I could get my hands on, even some real stretches of the imagination and I have come to the firm conclusion that Herbert Armstrong was right at least most of the time. I’m not sure that anyone knows the whole truth so I can’t hold him accountable for every line of prophecy, but his explanations have led me in the right direction and brought me to the point I’m at today.
      But to be fair, I sometimes change my views, such as the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy where most people erroneously assume that the last “week” is not yet fulfilled, representing the 7-year tribulation time. I now realize this is false and the tribulation time is actually unspecified. I consider the ability to learn and grow in my understanding is a good thing. Most people are so set in their beliefs that nothing they read from now on will ever change their minds. My catholic friends are all this way as are my Italian family members. All I can do is pray for them. But to those who still have an open mind, perhaps I can make a difference, so I blog on and hope for the best.
      When it comes to the bible, most people are set in their ways and refuse to drop their life-long beliefs. I is very stressful. They also think with their hearts and no so much their logical minds. This can lead them down any number of straying paths. You need to put yourself in God’s shoes (sandals?) and ask yourself what He would think about certain things. Here is a short article called “What will Jesus do” that might get you thinking in the right direction. I hope you will read it without prejudice.
      Tell me what you think:

  130. James;
    You side steepped the question again. To me and and what I have been taught and read in the Bible is that the Jews are central. Without them there is no end times scenario, no second coming, no millenium.

    You know I listen to Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith but I don’t follow them. I’v doumented erros that I have seen with them on this blog. I can’t believe Glen Beck (a Mormon) was featured at one of their prophecy conferences.

    This web site has become one of my favorites. She standing up for the truth. We shouldn’t follow men. We have to be Bereans.

    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/sharia-connection-to-calvary-chapel-costa-mesa/

    • Well this is just silly. How I’d Herbert Armstrong any different from Billy Graham, Jack Van Impe, Joel Olstein, Pat Robertson and thousands of others who have started ministries? All churches are built on donations from members thankful for the instructions. But the Worldwide church of God never charged for their literature and neither does the Philadelphia Church of God. I have a hundred books and never paid a penny for them.
      But who is the worst offender, by far? Who is the richest church with the most glorious cathedrals and cups of gold, fine linen of scarlet and purple, and all manner of vessels of most precious wood, brass iron and marble. (See Revelation 18 for all the rest).
      The Catholic church of course. And what about selling indulgences – get out of hell cards – to help build their empire. And telling their soldiers of the crusades that killing Muslims and Jew will insure their entrance into heaven. Herbert Armstrong was a rank amateur in comparison.
      Try reading his works before calling him a tool of Satan. Unlike the Catholic catechism, they are rooted in the bible.

      As for the issue of replacement theology, it is a complicated topic, but as far as the Christians replacing the Jews in the new covenant, we see that indicated in Revelation 12. That chapter describes the Jewish faith becoming the Christian faith after the birth of Christ, and how this small church is protected from the devil under the guise of the Holy Roman Empire for 1260 years (3-1/2 prophetic months). So Christians are the new Israel except where the term Israel refers to the nation of Israel. For example, in Ezekiel 38/39 – the war of Gog involves the nation of Israel being attacked by their (Muslim) enemies – a war which we see in the making right now. Otherwise, Israel refers to Christians who are now God’s true church, not Judaism. That much should be obvious. But the question of the “true church” – the one that Christ will marry when he returns, Revelation 121 refers to this church as the “remnant of her seed – referring to the original church as founded by Jesus.
      That little remnant is certainly not the 1.3 Billion strong Catholic church. Just do the math on that one.
      So what should the true bride of Christ look like? Jesus tells us in Revelation 3. He speaks to the seven churches of Ephesus and declares that only one out of the seven is pleasing in His eyes. The church at Philadelphia was the only true church in those days and to find the true church today we need to look to the original Philadelphia church to get a glimpse of what Christ’s bride will look like.
      A simple church, wit no statues or graven images or crucifixes, no Nuns, altar boys, confessionals etc. AND NO SUNDAY WORSHIP!
      And I can name 50 more pagan practices you wouldn’t find there either – and you won’t find them in His future bride either. OF THAT YOU CAN BE CERTAIN!
      The Catholic church is certainly rich and spectacular and all other religions pale in comparison to its splendor. It is a fantastic creation, but of MAN not God. It is full of rich traditions, but they are the traditions of men and not of the word of God and the bible warns us of just such things.
      Jesus was a simple rabbi, not a pope, and so he will remain. The Catholic church with all its glory and splendor will ultimately be rejected by Christ. It will not simply be adjusted or tweaked. It will be utterly destroyed:
      Revelation 17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
      Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!
      It is the city of 7 hills – Rome, the Vatican. Called Babylon – the symbol of ancient paganism.
      Any other choice is illogical and requires rejecting or ignoring half of the prophetic verses. Your brain is telling you the facts but your heart is rejecting them.
      I know you love Jesus, but you don’t seem to understand Him. Do yourself a favor and put on the shoes of the fisherman and see Jesus from a true perspective.
      Bless you my friend.

  131. James,
    Just a comment. I know how dug in you are with your position on replacement theology. Some have opened the door a little, just to bridge some things that don’t coincide with their theology. Others have thrown the door wide open, totally reversing what is written. Discourse will not change this. Only revelation from the Holy Spirit. What I have noticed is, when that door of replacement theology has been opened, it is extremely hard to get it closed. With the times that we are heading into, not knowing who we are and who we are linked to, will leave us perplexed and vulnerable. YHWH deals with individuals, not denominations or religions. He alone is the judge and determines who are His. It is not our place to do that. We are to deliver the Truth as He has revealed it in His word. I believe we have missed a lot, in this area, due to the fact that we really didn’t start at the beginning. Scripture, in the time of the New Teestament, consisted of the Tanakh. Most have thrown off the beginning and are trying to understand the end from the end. We have been told in scripture that God tells the end from the beginning. There is nothing in the New Testament that was not first laid out in the Torah and the Prophets. Seems kind late after 2000 years to go back to the beginning, but like the old saying, better late than never. We all have wrong thinking, we just don’t realize it. But YHWH will bring understanding to those who are His in this time of Restoration. God is inclusive, always looking for who so ever will!

    • Al,
      From what I’ve read the replacement theory is quite complicated and controversial with three different interpretations, but I’m not an expert on the topic. So I’m not sure what you are referring to in your post. Are you trying to imply that the Catholic church can not be the woman in Revelation 18 because the book is all about Israel and the Jews? You never really made it clear what you were trying to prove. Perhaps you can elaborate.

      • Hey James,
        I was not saying anything about the Catholic Church. Just speaking to the concept of replacement theology that is rampant in the church now, to varying degrees. Don’t have time right now, but will write Monday. Have a great and blessed weekend!

  132. YES ..
    It is the roman catholic church..city of 7 hills not “land” of 7 hills ,..so sorry for you ..but the pope who thinks he is a god that sits in a pagan temple with idols and statues of stone is the BEAST…they got rid of the commandment that says “you will not bow down to statues of false gods,images or gravings”.
    …the Catholic church killed more people in hstory than all wars together…turn to the REAL 10 commandments..not the 9 split up into 10 to fiyt your lust……

  133. Mary ..my donkey!
    ..the “Catholic Church”…sorry i meant the “catholic church” bows down and worships semiramis holding tammuz in her arms..the false christ.

    Why did almost all catholic temples in South -Africa replace their statues of semiramis ..your lady of whatever..with new statues where semiramis now holds a baby in her arms..not just open arms anymore.?

    Does this indicate the false replacement christ is now here..?

    Well..there is only one thing that jumps to mind = “SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship”….everywhere you go..
    ..turn to the REAL GOD of the Bible and his Real 10 Commandments.

  134. James;
    I think it’s wrong to make money off the gospel.

    Keith Green is the only Christian singer I know of that didn’t believe in charging for his concerts. I posted his testimony over on:
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/why-did-the-jesus-movement-die/

    Where do you think I started when I first went on this journey of what I believed 2-3 years ago? I never herard of John Darby before. I never knew about recontructionism, Dominionism and all these other cults and branches of Christianity. It really scared me. I almost thought everything I had believed in was a lie. I just had to review it.

    Dave Hunt is one of my favorite speaker. He has a few written articles on this web site and he writes all about the Apostates in the Church. So not one person is guilt free. I’m glad I’m not in a place of leadership.
    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/current-end-time-apostasy-of-church

    That is part of prophecy. That’s why I’m not surprised my own church has done some wrong things and people are pointing it out like in that above post.

    David Regan’s book has a chapter on the purpose of the millenium: It’t to fulfill promises made to “The Jews’, the church and promises to the nations, promises to Jesus, and creation

    I think there’s probably a lot we agree on. I tried the Messianic movement. I love the Jewish stuff, but it wasn’t meant to be. I just don’t get hung on all the symbols and rituals. It’s all about a personal relationship with a living God.

    In the Millenium:
    Zechariah 8:23

    כג כֹּה-אָמַר, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֲשֶׁר יַחֲזִיקוּ עֲשָׂרָה אֲנָשִׁים מִכֹּל לְשֹׁנוֹת הַגּוֹיִם; וְהֶחֱזִיקוּ בִּכְנַף אִישׁ יְהוּדִי לֵאמֹר, נֵלְכָה עִמָּכֶם–כִּי שָׁמַעְנוּ, אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם. {ס} 23

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ {S}

  135. In a nutshell this is what I believe:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

    Question: “What is replacement theology / supersessionism?”

    Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

    Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

    The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

    After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

    Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

    Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

    This page is also available in: Español, Português, Arabic, Indonesia, Italiano, Russian, Japanese

  136. Kittii,
    I believe you are correct in everything you mentioned here (except for the rapture). God has plans for both the Jews and Christians. They will be dealt with differently in the tribulation since the Jews have rejected Christ, they must be taught the truth. That will be the job of the two witnesses and the 144,000 sealed Jews. Christians will have to be taught not to follow the beast or else suffer the consequences. The 7 last plagues only fall on those with the Mark. I doubt that Muslims, Jews or Hindus will be involved.
    In the New Testament the Christians are often referred to as “Israel” while the new nation of Israel is referred to in a more descriptive manner such as “The pleasant land” or the like. If you can make that distinction, then replacement theology is not an all or nothing deal. In other words, you can believe in it and not believe in it at the same time and still be correct. It probably is a little of both.
    As for the Christians being raptured before the tribulation, that is a myth. I can find no credible evidence that it happens before the actual last trumpet and return of Christ. But if the true church IS raptured, it will only be that “small remnant“ of those who “Keep my commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” That will leave every SUNday worshipping church left behind. And coincidentally, none of the Seventh-Day Adventist churches believe in the rapture even though they would likely be the only ones taken.
    So I guess we’ll all be here together.
    Gee, I wonder what these blogs will be about then…?

    • Hi James,

      You say above, “As for the Christians being raptured before the tribulation, that is a myth. I can find no credible evidence that it happens before the actual last trumpet and return of Christ.”

      Many believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 refers to this as being the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

      “1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.”

      Many believe that the church that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and that it is then that the rapture will take place.
      The reasoning behind this is that this is the time we will be presented as Yeshua’s bride in Heaven, and that one doesn’t beat up the bride before you marry her.lol.

      Yet….. We’ll just have to wait and see though?

      • Well Gregg, I read several commentaries on 2Thessalonians just to be sure and they all had the same general idea as outlined in the following from Coffman:

        Verse 6
        And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
        That which restraineth …
        This is viewed generally, by nearly all schools of interpreters, as being the Roman government. This is supported by the context in that it would explain why Paul spoke so guardedly of its being taken out of the way.” However, the prophecy reaches far beyond the fall of the ancient empire; and the best view of this is, in all probability, that of Hendriksen:

        Of all the theories advanced so far, the one which seems to have most in its favor is that in which the restrainer is “the power of well-ordered human rule,” or as Ellicott’s Commentary has it, “the principle of legality as opposed to that of lawlessness.”
        The principle of law and order, as enforced by human authority, is “that which restraineth” until he be taken out of the way. This means that Satan will continually use every device, pursue every opportunity, and employ every diabolical instrument in his efforts to break down law and order in society.

        Hence, for the time being, the worst Satan can do is to promote the spirit of lawlessness. But this does not satisfy him. It is as if he and his man of sin bide their time. At the divinely decreed moment (the appropriate time) when, as a punishment for man’s willingness to cooperate with this spirit, the “someone” and “something” that now holds back is removed, Satan will begin to carry out his plans.

        I found no mention that the church was the restrainer – in fact just the opposite. When you read it in the context of the entire letter, there is no real hint that the church is to be raptured. I think this is just another case of taking verses out of context in order to build a theory that may make for a great movie plot, has no firm biblical underpinnings.

        As for beating up on the bride, the true remnant church will not be “beat up” but this will only be a tiny fraction of Christianity. The vast majority of apostate Christian churches will be hammered into shape or else completely destroyed.

        Wonder if God will be fussy about His bride or cut her a lot of slack?
        Ask the Jews. Ask The people of Noah’s time, or the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah, or Israel at the time of Babylon and so on and so forth.

        Don’t count on a snappy rescue just because you praise Jesus.

  137. Hi James,

    Yep, it certainly is a debatable topic for sure. One where there appears to be a plethora of theories, with no simple resolution, or consensus readily available.

    Where you say, “Wonder if God will be fussy about His bride or cut her a lot of slack?
    Ask the Jews. Ask The people of Noah’s time, or the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah, or Israel at the time of Babylon and so on and so forth.
    Don’t count on a snappy rescue just because you praise Jesus.”

    I guess it is my hope, (taking into account that those that you utilized to substantiate your position didn’t have Yeshua to praise for their salvation) that verse’s such as Romans 5:8,9,10
    “8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” can also be applied to the times of the Tribulation. However, I have no real proof that this will be the case.

    And though, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 do appear to suggest some type of “snappy” event,:-)
    I can only hope and pray for all of us, that it indeed indicates some form of rescue.

    But again, I have no definitive proof at all. Scripture at times is so ambiguous, and appears to be simply beyond our ability to fully comprehend. We will all just have to leave it in God’s hands, and see how it plays out.

    Peace, and God Bless

  138. Hi James,
    Good to see you standing firm on what must be considered to be Satan’s
    most effective ploy in inducing complacency in these critical last
    days; namely the false teaching of a pre-Armageddon rapture. I have
    recently learned that book sales and literature have netted the greedy,
    opportunist proponents of this blatantly obvious false teaching, many
    millions of $. It is a fact that, when the simplicity of God’s Word is
    perverted in this way,elaborate invention becomes necessary in order to
    circumvent the truth to the degree where error becomes plausible; and
    unfortunately TOO MANY have swallowed what will prove to be a bitter and
    deadly “pill” as the “birth pains” increase; with the promised “get out”
    clause never to be invoked. ((We will be going through the tribulation,
    but we can take comfort in the fact that God’s wrath is not poured out
    during the tribulation; His wrath is poured out at Armageddon.))
    Only a handful of scriptures are necessary to set this matter (rapture)
    straight; since only a few scriptures taken out of context form the
    false premise on which this outrageous heresy has been built upon.
    But unfortunately, intricately interwoven with this teaching is the
    claimed restoration of Israel as a nation, after the rapture, and the
    misunderstood 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week timeline which actually
    pertains to the duration of Jesus’ ministry; so there is a lot to
    unravel.
    Unfortunately due to other commitments,I am unable to allot the
    necessary time in presenting the necessary information and partaking in
    the inevitable exchanges; so I wish you well; but this really is not
    such a difficult issue to resolve;((although Satan would have us believe that it is !)), the difficulty will be for those who have pinned their hopes of “escape” on the rapture, to come to terms with being grossly deceived.
    Suffice to say, if anyone here really does believe that Jesus will come
    for his flock (1 Thes.4:13-16) before Armageddon, please show from
    scripture how those left behind can be saved, or have a second chance of
    salvation, since the only means of salvation would have expired.
    Just like the days of Noah, will the coming of the Son of Man be;
    THERE WAS NO SECOND CHANCE !

    I wish you well, James.
    God bless you all.

    • Hi Richard,
      Nice rant.

      You say above,”Only a handful of scriptures are necessary to set this matter (rapture)straight; since only a few scriptures taken out of context form the false premise on which this outrageous heresy has been built upon.”

      Perhaps when you can find the time from your commitments,and become able to allot the necessary time in presenting the necessary information and partaking in the inevitable exchanges, you could supply us with some supporting evidence to your view point?

      Also…. did you ever read my post to you on “Angels Eat Food”?

      God Bless

      • Hi Gregg;

        Yes, that is my intention as soon as I am able to.

        Re:post; “Angels eat food”; I cannot recall having placed
        a comment here.

        God bless.

        • Richard,
          Sorry Dude,
          That was my mistake. It was a post to Nigel. :-)

          Looking forward to your post when you can find the time.

          God Bless

    • Hi Richard,
      You are completely correct sir! There will be a rapture – the only question is the timing. According to Revelation the snatching away occurs at the 7th trump as Jesus descends from the clouds for all to see. The dead in Christ are also raised at this time, something the rapturists simply ignore. You don’t see that in the “Left Behind” movies.
      This will occur on the Feast of Trumpets as Christ comes back to fight the battle of Armageddon. We are protected from this event by the rapture, but not from previous events in the Book of Revelation. Otherwise John would have skipped over them since they would not have applied to Christians.
      There is no proof that there are two second comings. In order to get an early rapture you must make certain assumptions and take other things out of context to pint a sort-of-believable picture. I believed the picture for many years until I watched a lecture where the teacher went through every verse used in the pre-trib theory and by using the correct context, debunked the entire theory perfectly. I read the chapters (not just the verses) myself and I came to the same conclusion. I didn’t want to but I had no choice – the bible was clear. There are simply no verses that definitively discuss a separate earlier rapture – it’s all innuendo.
      And you’re right about the 70th week of Daniel. Until recently I simply believed the idea that it represented a “future” 7 year period, but once I began to study it in detail I came to realize that it is already passed – part of the continuous 70-week prophecy. The words were simply reinterpreted to mean something else so that they would seem to fit into the popular 7-year antichrist reign theory. But they make perfect sense without the need to toss the end of the prophecy another 2000 years into the future. After all, Daniel had another prophecy that ended in 1844 so he would have had no problem extending a prophecy another 170 years or so.
      So it looks like the tribulation is going to be a lot different than most people think. Most everyone is waiting for a great world dictator to take over the New World Order. They believe they will easily spot him as they are certain what to look for. I think Satan has them all fooled. He has prepared for this time for many years and he knows just how to misdirect even God’s elect – just as Jesus said would happen.
      He has lured them into a false sense of security and he will have a field day with them once the tribulation begins.
      See you all there.

      • James;
        So well said! Look forward to seeing you there…and will be
        counting on you for a laugh or two, to get through!

        God bless.

  139. Hey Richard;
    What group do you idenityfy with? It will help me to understand just where you are coming from.

    • Hi Kittii;

      I belong to no denomination or group; and my teacher has infinite “IQ”,
      is the master of “resurrection”, and sure knows how to ride a donkey!
      Impressed?!…..

      God bless.

  140. James;

    I don’t think a Man who has taken 12 companies out of Bankrupty and has a genus IQ is going to believe or teach a Myth.

    http://www.khouse.org/pages/mcat/khouse/about_the_misslers/

    Our Blessed Hope
    by Chuck Missler

    ——————————————————————————–
    PURSUE THIS TOPIC:

    ——————————————————————————–

    ARTICLES
    The Wedding Model
    The Harpazo
    The Great Snatch?
    Ephraem The Syrian
    ——————————————————————————–

    We continue to receive many questions concerning the “Rapture” of the church and its apparent contrast with the “Second Coming” of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term “rapture” even in the Bible?

    Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

    I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics… in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.

    The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.

    The Harpz

    The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly presented in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he encourages the grieving Christians that, at the “great snatch,” they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    In verse 17, the English phrase “caught up” translates the Greek word harpz, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.”

    There are those who claim that the word “rapture” isn’t in their Bible. That’s because they aren’t using the Latin translation:

    …deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.. -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate) 1

    The Latin equivalent of the Greek harpz is the Latin verb rapio, “to take away by force.” In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this past participle.)

    At the Rapture, living believers will be “caught up” in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time, to join the Lord in the air.

    The Promise

    This will be the fulfillment of the promise which our Lord confirmed at the Last Supper:

    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. -John 14:1-3

    This thrilling promise wasn’t given to everyone, only to His believers. (Judas had already left by then.)

    This appears to parallel the promise of the bridegroom in the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding, where, after the ketubah, the engagement, but before the huppah, the formal ceremony, the groom departed to prepare a new home for his bride, usually an addition to his father’s house. The bride was kept in a state of expectancy pending his return-often in the middle of the night, as a surprise.

    (The huppah, the wedding ceremony, was followed with a seven-day celebration, etc.)

    The Process

    The anticipation of a bodily resurrection after life on this earth pervades the entire Bible. In the oldest book of the Bible, Job declares:

    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. -Job 19:25-27

    Yet, when our Lord comes to gather His church, there will be a generation alive at that time. In his discussion of the Resurrection in his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul again deals with this astonishing event:

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:51-55

    (From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, “in the twinkling of an eye,” will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) 2

    The Imminent Gathering

    Clearly, the Bible teaches us to expect Him at any moment. This is called the Doctrine of Imminency: it is next on the program and may take place very soon.

    (The word “imminent” should not be confused with “immanent,” which, in theological contexts, means that God is not only transcendent, or far above us, but that He is always with us and active on our behalf. Nor should it be confused with “eminent,” which is a title of honor reserved for persons of outstanding distinction.)

    Imminency expresses hope and a warm spirit of expectancy, 3 which should result in a victorious and purified life. 4 Believers are taught to expect the Savior from heaven at any moment. 5

    Paul seemed to include himself among those who looked for Christ’s return. 6 Timothy was admonished to “keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 7 Jewish converts were reminded that “yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry.” 8

    Some have concluded that the expectation of some were so strong they had stopped work and had to be exhorted to return to their jobs, 9 and have patience. 10

    Two Events?

    There are many that hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the “Second Coming” of Christ and the “Rapture” are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

    In contrast to the imminent gathering of His church, there are numerous passages that deal with precedent events which must transpire prior to the “Second Coming” to establish His kingdom on the earth. Some of the passages referring to the Rapture and the Second Coming are summarized at the the table below.

    Rapture
    Second Coming

    John 14:1-3
    Dan 2:44-45

    Rom 8:19
    Dan 7:9-14

    1 Cor 1:7-8
    Dan 12:1-3

    1 Cor 15:1-53
    Zech 14:1-15

    1 Cor 16:22
    Matt 13:41

    Phil 3:20-21
    Matt 24:15-31

    Col 3:4
    Matt 26:64

    1 Thess 1:10
    Mark 13:14-27

    1 Thess 2:19
    Mark 14:62

    1 Thess 4:13-18
    Luke 21:25-28

    1 Thess 5:9
    Acts 1:9-11

    1 Thess 5:23
    Acts 3:19-21

    2 Thess 2:1 (3?)
    1 Thess 3:13

    1 Tim 6:14
    2 Thess 1:6-10

    2 Tim 4:1
    2 Thess 2:8

    Titus 2:13
    2 Peter 3:1-14

    Heb 9:28
    Jude 14-15

    James 5:7-9
    Rev 1:7

    1 Peter 1:7, 13
    Rev 19:11-20:6

    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Rev 22:7, 12, 20

    Jude 21

    Rev 2:25

    Rev 3:10

    Why So Many Views?

    There are, of course, many differing views, especially regarding matters of eschatology – the study of “last things.” This diversity derives from several factors: the disciplines associated with hermeneutics – the theory of interpretation – as well as the need to integrate an understanding of the entirety of God’s revealed plan of redemption: “the whole counsel of God.”

    The need to relate the various elements of end-time events, such as the Great Tribulation, the events surrounding the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Millennium, and other related issues, requires precise definitions and diligent study. We will address many of these in our subsequent articles in the hopes that they will prove helpful in understanding these issues and assisting you in formulating your own views regarding these challenges. (We will discover that some of the principal controversies are more an issue of ecclesiology than eschatology! But more of this next time.)

    These are not “peripheral” issues (as they may have seemed in the past). We believe we are being plunged into a period of time about which the Bible says more than it does about any other period of human history-including the time that Jesus walked the shore of the Sea of Galilee and climbed the mountains of Judea! It is the most exciting time to be alive! But if we are to be diligent stewards, we need to carefully revise our priorities to match His!

    * * *

    • Kittii,
      In all the verses mentioned above there is none that clearly state an early secret coming of Jesus to snatch His people away.
      Yes, Jesus will protect His people by a “snatching away” but it won’t happen until He returns for the battle of Armageddon. We will be taken up and changed and meet Him in the clouds. Nowhere does it say we will go to heaven though. We will reign with Him for 1000 years on earth so I doubt we will even need to enter heaven for the ten days it will take him to destroy the forces of evil on the earth. In fact, once we have eternal bodies we will not need to be sequestered during the battle – after all, we can’t be killed.
      I believe the whole “meeting Him in the air” business is all about how a returning King is greeted by his subjects – they pour out of their houses and run to the edge of town to greet him. So it will be with the Lord. There is no need to send us to heaven, wherever that may be.

      And as for trusting “geniuses” it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. I don’t trust anyone who says:

      (From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, “in the twinkling of an eye,” will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) 2

      Clearly he is trying to solve the mystery of the bible scientifically, just to sound smart.
      If you ever watch Dr. Jack Van Impe on his weekly TV show he is always stating emphatically the in 400 one-thousandths of a second we will all be changed and transported 50 billion trillion miles to heaven. Of course every time NASA reports a new galaxy even farther away he has to revise the distance. He sounds like he knows exactly where heaven is, but maybe its really NASA who knows.
      My point is, just because you’re smart doesn’t mean you’re right. Heck, Sir William Herschel, Britains astronomer royale, thought the sun was cold to the touch and that people lived inside it.
      Brilliant man. Bad guesser.

      • James,

        Above a few posts, you stated the Bible does not write about a world system. However, it does read about the Anti-Christ ruling all who wish to buy, and sell. Those who wish to buy, and sell must have the mark of the Anti-Christ.

        How can this be, if there is not some form of control through a global system like a Central Bank?

        We see America being destroyed to make the Global Market place. Also, we see China trading their money, which has a mass murderer on it, nest to the dollar. Are we not close to a one world global currency?

        If that is true, and the FED is making it so the dollar is weak to a tipping point, would it not be easy to control almost everyone at once?

        • leatherneck,

          The new world currency is set to be decided on this March/April when the G20 meets. They expect the dollar and the euro to crash soon. Also, The UN plans a super devaluation of the dollar, and a meeting to establish the NWO by July 2011.

          Nathan Leal was a guest on Trunews with Rick Wiles – Friday (1-14-11)

          This program had three guests.

          Nathan has been given insider info on the coming NWO plan for a global currency. He shared this info on the program.

          The second guest has a different (insider) source & shares similar info on what the “NWO powers that be” are doing behind the scenes.

          Third guest Augusto Perez shares the message God gave him about a coming dollar devaluation.

          Coming soon: a global currency, dollar devaluation of 50% to 70%. Savings accounts and the middle class to be wiped out! We must get ready!

          http://www.trunews.com/Audio/1_14_11_friday_trunews2.mp3

          The wheels are in motion! Please listen to this and warn your friends and families. We are running out of time!!

        • leatherneck,
          The majority of Christians today believe that there will soon come a New World Order with total control over the banking system. They also believe that a great dictator will take it over and rule the planet. This “antichrist” figure will then give everyone a mark in the hand or forehead and without the mark they couldn’t use the banking system to buy or sell stuff. This interpretation was made popular with the “Left Behind” books and movies and the world has bought into it.
          They misinterpret a few verses in Daniel and Revelation and then expand on them until they have a complete screenplay.
          There is another completely different interpretation, however.
          First is the “Mark” of the beast. It is not a literal mark, but more like a “seal.” In Revelation we read that the 144,000 witnesses are “sealed” by God in their foreheads (meaning their minds). The devil also has his seal but unlike a “royal, kingly” seal, it is a simple Mark – like an illiterate person signing their name. They are like signatures and they represent a person’s allegiance. The term “mark of authority” is an example.
          You are sealed by God if you keep His commandments and are marked by Satan if you disobey them. The commandment(s) in question here are the second and fourth. The early church eliminated the 2nd commandment so they could keep the pagan statues they inherited from the Roman empire, and so they could pray to the dead (another paganism) such as Mary and many and varied saints.
          Then they changed the sabbath to Sunday due to the insistence of the Roman government whose people worshipped the sun god Mithras.
          Sunday worship has already been demanded by the medieval church. After the council of Laodicea the church stated “Thou shalt not Judaize.” and outlawed Saturday rest under threat of death or imprisonment. 50 million saints were persecuted, maybe twice that. You were forced to work on Saturday and rest on Sunday and you could not do business (buy or sell) unless you agreed to this.
          Last year, France just passed a “blue law” requiring the same thing and more of Europe will soon follow. The pope has also decreed it but as of yet does not have the power to enforce it… yet.
          The so called New World Order will only be a revival of the Holy Roman Empire in modern times, with the Vatican and the E.U. combining forces against a building Islamic threat.
          The “whole world will follow the beast” simply means that the worlds Christians will rally under the pope and dutifully attend church every Sunday, especially when the seals of Revelation begin to open. The New World Order will be a united Europe and the “Unified world religion” will simply be most of Christianity returning to their Vatican roots. (This is already happening, quietly, right now).
          The Vatican is the beast and the pope is it’s false prophet, working hand-in-hand to propagate a trick of Satan – to disobey God’s commandments. (And remember – you break one and you’ve broke them all).
          Of course the big problem with this interpretation is that almost no Christian church can agree with it unless they give up their traditional Sunday worship and become 7th day Adventists or the like. Even the Mormons thought that was just “too Jewish” for it to work for them.
          But this fits the prophecy that the whole world will follow the beast and the true church will be just a small remnant.
          So Satan has modern Christians looking in the news for a New World Order and a unified currency system and RFID chips to put in our hands, and there are just enough rumors floating around to perpetrate the scam.
          The devil has us zigging while he zags and the deception is working perfectly. And the beauty of his plan is that he really doesn’t have to do much of anything at this point as most Christians already have his mark and have had it for well over a thousand years.
          The tribulation is going to be a piece of cake for satan!

          • Thanks for the reply Marianne, and Richard.

            Richard,

            We are under grace now. How can those who worship G-d the Father in Christ name be of Lucifer even though they rest on Sunday?

            Are you 100% sure the mark of G-d is not a real mark. Because, the creatures that toment man from the pit can not hurt those who have it.

            Thanks, and have a great day.

            • Hi Leatherneck;

              Briefly, I think your comment was
              intended for James… Personally, I do
              not have a definite view on “the mark”,
              mainly because I do not, as yet, know
              why some will receive it on the right
              hand, while others on the forehead; but
              to be honest,it is something I am not
              too concerned about. Suffice to say,if
              we are to take it literally, then perhaps
              Catholics will be distinguished by either
              of the marks;because there can be no doubt
              that if the “woman” is indeed “Rome”,
              Catholics are guaranteed to accept the mark
              and may receive preferential treatment; and there can also be no doubt that anyone who adheres to the pagan doctrines of the
              protestant denominations and the like; which are by necessity “Catholic” in origin,will no doubt accept the mark,as will the rest.
              All who refuse the mark, will be those who
              are out of “Babylon”; because they desired
              to worship God in spirit and in truth,and
              by so doing, will have the necessary faith
              to resist..faith which has been built on
              the solid foundations of God’s Word and
              truth,augmented by the necessary sacrifices
              because of it, resulting in a close and
              loving relationship with Him.
              The unshakable trust we should now have,
              should dispel any fears of going through
              the tribulation; while babes in Christ;or
              whatever we are according to our level of
              growth and understanding, should be
              confident that God will see them through,
              since He will reward all who earnestly seek
              Him in spirit and in truth.
              If the mark should be symbolic,then again, it should not matter too much to us as I’m sure God will make “it’s” meaning obvious to us when the time is right.
              The only mark that we need be concerned
              about at the moment is; do we have the mark of our saviour, Jesus ?!

              (back in a while)

              God bless.

              • Thanks for the reply, and my mistake, as I was addressing James, and wrote your name instead. How strange.

                At the Dr. level, the arguement about the two men in the field is not one Christian, and one not. But, one Christian may go, and one may stay.

                Do any of you nice people here think some Christians will go through the Tribulation to help those who realize their error, or do you think all true Christians will be taken to be with Christ leaving all to fend for themselves?

                I am torn, because I know I worship G-d the Father in Christ name every day, but I sin every day too. We all do. So, I just don’t know. If I do not make the cut, I hope I am strong enough to speak out like I do here when it comes my time to accept the mark, or not.

                A romantic thought?

                • It may be a mix of what you said.

                  1. in the harvest, the wheat and tares grow together, the Tares are taken first and burned, and then the wheat is harvested…..so the righteous may be around when the unrighteous are punished….which means we are around in time of trouble.

                  2. matt 24,,,,Jesus says he will see us AFTER the tribulation….which means we have to go through at least something before he comes….i do not believe we go through the wrath, only the tribulation part.

                  3. there may be some christians who escape all this because they die and leave this earth in time to avoid it all. in this case, God uses a natural death to remove them.

                  4. i am open to another interpretation….like maybe the true, tested ones leave, and the rest remain to be tested.

                  • Hi Leatherneck;

                    Don’t worry,friend; it is
                    all about heart condition.
                    If we truly love Jesus,we
                    we will be on that cramped
                    and narrow path leading to
                    salvation.(his words).
                    We will not be walking the
                    highways of “Babylon’s”
                    cheap grace, since Jesus
                    shed his blood at a price.
                    The cost which we are told
                    to count, which amounts to
                    to the true value of grace
                    which covers our human
                    failings if we truly
                    desire to keep Gods’
                    commandments.
                    We need to go through the
                    tribulation because God
                    desires to show us just
                    what a powerful, loving
                    and merciful Father He
                    really is, toward those
                    who truly love Him.
                    What a grand prospect and
                    privilege to be part of,
                    and witness His Great Day
                    of deliverance.
                    Cant wait!.See you there!

                    God bless you!

            • Hi Leatherneck,
              If you read exodus and Leviticus you find that God “sealed” His people with his laws in their right hands (which represents works or deeds) and their foreheads (which is their minds or brains. It is clear in these old verses that the seal is not visible as Jews were forbidden to have tattoos or the like.
              If you look up “seal” in the KJV concordance you will find the word “mark.”
              God seals and Satan marks. Neither are visible.
              The mark of Satan is disobedience to God. I can not be about the banking system. That is a ploy of the devil to throw good Christians off the right track.
              Does God care if we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? Here is what Daniel has to say about the beast/Antichrist:

              Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

              The first part refers to pagan practices of which there are many, and then note that the beast power tries to change God’s laws and times. The only commandment involving time is the 4th – the sabbath one. Then it says this power will last for 1260 (prophetic) years – the exact duration of the Holy Roman Empire, when the Catholic church had dominion over the whole of the Christian world and executed millions for heresy – including the refusal to worship on Sunday.

              Revelation makes this clear:
              Revelation 7:2-4
              2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
              3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
              Revelation 9:3-5
              3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
              4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
              The above verse makes it abundantly clear, the 7 plagues of Revelation 9 will only affect those people who do not have the seal of God.

              And now the clincher:

              Revelation 14:11-12
              11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
              12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that
              keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

              These verses make it clear that punishment will given to those with the mark, but those without the mark are “they tat keep the commandments of God.”
              Therefore we can only conclude that the mark is the breaking of a commandment. Guess which one…

              As for the parable of the wheat and the tares, I believe that that refers to the “reaping” of the wicked after Christ returns. The day of atonement. We know He will judge the wicked after he takes His throne, so the parable must be referring to this – not a different judgement day years before the second coming.
              Of course the “Left Behind” books use this parable as if it describes the rapture and place it before the appearance of the antichrist. Nice story line, but it is just that. They actually got it backwards, claiming the ones who are taken away are “saved” thru the rapture when in reality they are the tares being plucked up and destroyed. Another ploy of Satan.
              So we are all going to go through the tribulation, but so what? If we live thru it we are changed at the second coming, after the dead have risen first. So who cares if we die a bit early? We’ll be back in time to meet Jesus in the clouds and we will even beat the living to the punch!
              God knows this, even if we forget. To die in Christ is to live forever, and we’re only “asleep” for an instant, so what’s the problem?
              The only problem is to figure out how to get “sealed.”
              Same as the ancient Jews, plus believe Christ is your savior. But believing in Christ and being a pagan isn’t going to cut it. This is why God wrote the Book of Revelation. Understand the reason behind it and you understand the prophecy.
              God bless us all.

              • Hi James,

                What you say about the “mark” makes a lot of sense, so is worthy of serious
                consideration;..thanks !!

                God bless.

              • A lot of good information folks. thanks.

                Now, a serious thought. There have been millions of good people worshiping on Sunday for about 1700yrs. My Grandmother is one of them.

                What about them?

                • I think if that is the worst thing your grandmother ever did, she does not have much to worry about.

                • Hi Leatherneck;

                  Since the issue of getting out
                  of “Babylon” applies specifically to these last
                  days, then disregard the 1700
                  years..nought to worry about!
                  I just wish those Sunday
                  morning preachers would stop
                  consigning the vast majority
                  of mankind who ever lived to
                  an eternity of unimaginable
                  torment..but I suppose where
                  God is absent, then the doctrines of demons will
                  flourish.

                  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should NOT PERISH but have
                  ETERNAL LIFE” ..John 3:16

                  What a truly loving & merciful
                  Heavenly Father we have !!

                  God bless.

  141. Richard;
    Everyone gets their teaching or belief from somewhere. There are those who think they’ve cornered the market on the truth and only they know the truth and are the “True Church”

    Sound familiar or like anyone you know?

    • Kittii;

      Not sure how the truth equates with a market, but there’s no doubt
      that counterfeit truth is big business for many. As for as claims of
      authenticity goes;I would avoid any denomination, group or person
      who consider their teachings to be infallible or who consider themselves to be the “true church”;conversely, any who do not care for the truth. However,I would embrace anyone who diligently seeks
      the truth, expecting to receive, as a result of continually asking
      God for understanding by means of His spirit, in conjunction with
      verification from scripture for all teaching received, from whatever
      source. I would expect such a person not to seek prestige, notoriety or status of any kind, and certainly not to gain financially.
      It is my belief that Jesus’ true followers are not represented by
      any denomination or group;although truth can be found in varying
      degrees throughout all denominations.

      God bless.

      • James & Richard,
        I would be interested in knowing your take on what Paul is saying in Romans chapter 11. Specifically about the cultivated and wild olive trees and how it pertains to us as believers in Messiah, and relational, one to another. Have enjoyed your back and forth.

        • Hey Al,
          I’ve found a short bible study that I think clarifies the verse you refer to:

          God is making the distinction between the natural olive tree branches (the Jewish people, who are naturally of Covenant Israel) which are the original children, and the wild olive tree branches (the people of the Gentile nations) which were not naturally His covenant people, but that are now brought into God’s Covenant relationship with Israel.

          Galatians 3:26-29

          “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
          For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
          There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
          And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

          Both Jew and Gentile are made one body of this Covenant tree, Israel. Both are now the Children of Israel, by the faith of Christ. Has the Promise to Israel of a New Covenant and an everlasting inheritance been abrogated? No, but Israel shall be defined by God, not by man. If we are in Christ Israel, then we are all Abraham’s seed and inheritors of the promises to Israel.

          Let us know your thoughts on the matter.

      • Richard,
        You have already posted that under a different page. Will go back and reaquaint myself with it. We never really finished our converstation on that topic. Will get back with you.

  142. Persecution, a depression, hard times is not “The Great Tribulation”. I believe a purging and a purifying is needed first.
    It’s really important we do not confuse the two, otherwise people will fall away.

  143. Hey James and Richard,
    Hope all is well with you today. I am not going to try and change anybody’s mind concerning what they believe. Only Ruach HaKodesh can do that. You both are very engaged and knowledgeable when conveying your beliefs. I have a lot of respect for both of you. I am not going to address anything either of you have said, but rather show where I am coming from.

    Jeremiah 11:13-16 (King James Version)
    13For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
    14Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
    15What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
    16The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

    The cultivated olive tree is Israel. YHWH even declares that. Saying that the tree is Avraham is not contradictory to that fact, insomuch that the seed of Isaac and Israel were both in his loins. If you will notice, Paul speaks in chapter 11 of Romans about the cultivated olive tree and wild olive tree. Not coincidentally, both are olive trees, speaking to the fact that they are of the same nature, yet with differences. You cannot graft branches from another species of tree, and it remain a pure olive tree. Since both are olive trees, does that mean that they are both Israel by nature?

    Romans 11:24 (King James Version)
    24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    They are both olive trees so what is contrary to nature? Is it not, that Paul took that which was wild and spoke of grafting it into the cultivated tree. That is not common practice in the real world. The cultivated olive tree is taken and grated into the wild olive tree to stimulate it to bear better fruit. But Paul spoke of doing just the opposite. Why? To provoke Judah to recognize and embrace their own Messiah. In that Judah failed to present YHWH to the nations, so the wild olive branches failed to provoke Judah to jealousy. At least so far.

    Zechariah 11:10-14 (King James Version)
    10And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
    11And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
    12And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
    13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
    14Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

    YHWY tore Israel in half because of the sins of Solomon. Can you see the formation of the two separate olive trees? It is important to realize that they were brothers. God took Judah captive into Babylon, returned them to Israel under Ezra and Nehemiah, sent them into the Diaspora in 70 A.D., and brought them back into their land in 1948. The question is, when will YHWH bring back the House of Israel (The Ten Northern tribes)? But more importantly, how, since they were scattered (sown) and mingled with the nations? Judah kept their ethnicity, but the Northern tribes disappeared into the nations, loosing their bloodline.

    Hosea 2:17-23 (King James Version)
    17For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
    18And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
    19And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
    20I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
    21And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
    22And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
    23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    The 3rd chapter of Hosea deals with the ten northern tribes. YHWH will take out of their mouths the names of Baalim (lord). When YHWH scattered the northern tribes, He actually sowed them in the earth. The word scatter also means to sow. When YHWH sows seed He expects and will get a harvest. Who are these people who will say to YHWH, You are my God?

    Hosea 1:6-10 (King James Version)
    6And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
    7But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
    8Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
    9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
    10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Again, in this verse YHWH will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel, but will utterly take them away. But just a few verses later He says their numbers would be as the sand of the sea and these people will be called the sons of the living God. Since the northern tribes are not here,especially in the numbers talked about, who are these people referred to as the sons of God?

    Hosea 3
    1Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
    2So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
    3And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
    4For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
    5Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

    In verse 5 it basically says that the children of Israel (not Judah) will return and seek YHWH (which I am sure you know is what LORD means in the KJV), in the latter days. Again the question arises, who are these people in the latter days seeking YHWH? We know that they are of the House of Israel, but who will they be in the latter days?

    I would be interested in your thoughts. Also, who are these people, but more importantly, who are they in YHWH’s eyes?

    • Hi Al;

      Thank you for your kinds words and hope you are well.
      I appreciate where you are coming from,and your desire to prove that
      Israel are God’s chosen people; and you make some excellent points. Because of what is written under the new covenant, I do not support the idea of Jewish chosenness, despite our saviour being a Jew.
      Moreover, because I am a Gentile, I do not feel compelled to metamo-
      rphosize in to a Jew, by way of converting Greek parlance into
      Hebrew or Aramaic, or observing Jewish customs and observances under
      the old covenant which no longer apply.Paul makes this clear in his
      epistles. My saviour’s name is Jesus,and I’m happy with that.
      Also, since it is our commission to preach the gospel to all nations,
      so that all have the chance of coming to salvation; I feel that the
      scholarly approach may be somewhat stifling to the majority of
      people, who let’s face it, are just trying to get through each day!
      So I do believe that something is clearly wrong when intense debate
      appears to be necessary in resolving issues such as this.
      I do not believe that this is God’s way, but due to perversion of
      simple teaching; unfortunately, it is necessary at times, for the
      benefit of those who have been deceived. However, I do respect your
      depth of knowledge and regard for this issue,as there can be no doubt
      that knowing the truth of Israel’s spiritual status, tells us much
      about the character of God.
      The olive tree analogy has to be seen contextually; because God has
      made it absolutely clear, under the new covenant, that there is no
      longer distinction between “Jew and Greek” in Christ. Romans 10:12;
      (the preceding chapter before the olive tree analogy in chapter 11)
      Because of the unequivocalness of this statement,all other references
      to Israel must be contextually weighed and prioritized in accord
      with this definitive statement. It is also worth noting that we will undergo spiritual transfromation of our bodies when Jesus simultaneously comes for his flock and executes the 1st resurrection.
      (1 Thes 4:13-18..1 Cor 15:37).
      This more than strongly suggests that we will not be indentifiable
      by our racial characteristics and differences, as Romans 10:12 appears to confirm.(hope this straightens out the Jewish and Roman noses !!)
      Since we are now one in Christ and are to be the subjects of God’s new Kingdom under the rulership of Jesus in Israel(initially), then
      who are these Jews who are to receive preferential treatment as
      God’s chosen. Will it be a two-tier arrangement, or do you think that
      what were once Jew and Gentile will be truly indistinguishable in
      terms of racial origin,and therefore truly equal heirs of the kingdom. Romans 8:16-17 clearly states the we are joint heirs with
      Christ. Since there is no suggestion whatsoever of chosenness here,
      together with all the scriptural references to indistinguishabilty,
      I really cannot see how Jews,in any way, can be God’s exclusive
      chosen people.
      Sorry, Al, but can only manage a short response to your questions at
      the moment, but I do agree that there are many verses which appear to support the idea of Jewish chosenness, just as there are to refute
      it;and no doubt we could exchange chapter and verse until the Jews
      come home?! (sorry, had to get that one in!); but at the moment am
      unable to. Maybe, we can continue at a later date, when convenient,
      or off-lime if necessary ?

      Regards, God bless.

      • Richard,
        I appreciate you writing back. Hope your day is going well. I am going to respond to your last post. Your response was pretty much what I was expecting. I was kind of surprised, though, that you seemed to be offended by the subject matter, to the degree that you were. You seem somewhat uncomfortable with the topic. Most likely because you are uncomfortable with anything detailed that is to the left of Matthew. I don’t know that for a fact, but then, that is the way we have been taught, isn’t it? Start at John and basically stay to the right of Matthew. The “Old” Testament is good for reference. You are aware that when Paul wrote his letters, the only scripture available was the Old Testament. And that the majority of the New Testament consists of, letters to basically specific groups of people. It is all true, just not new. Paul was given revelation into the deeper meanings of what was contained in the old Testament, to bring the Gentiles to salvation. Even the other Apostles had a difficult time understanding it. It has always been understood that in the Messiah there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. It has always been that way. That deals with salvation. Whosoever will! It has always been about the Good Seed. But when we are born again, what are we born into? Read the Book of Ruth. It is a perfect picture of the Gentile’s betrothal to Messiah, as a part of Israel. What you don’t understand, is that Israel and the promises pertaining to it, now belong to us as heirs of the Commonwealth of Israel (not replacement theology). It is not about becoming Jewish. We will never be Jews. That wasn’t what I was saying in the other post. I intentionally didn’t say who the people were that the scriptures were referring to, that I wrote in the last post. It was to cause you to think about what is going on here. Not everything is laying on the ground in plain sight for us to just go over and get it. YHWH hides things for us to seek them out.

        Proverbs 25:2 (King James Version)
        2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

        He doesn’t leave his treasure laying on the ground for the profane to find it. Do you believe that God has a place for you in the New Jerusalem? Which of the twelve gates named after the 12 tribes of Israel are you going to enter through? This isn’t a baker’s dozen. There is no 13th gate for Gentiles. If we have been born again by the Ruach of Elohim, then are we part of the Commonwealth of Israel. This theme runs from Genesis to Revelations. James wrote on one of his posts the other day that Paul should have made some of his points a little bit clearer. I don’t believe he had any idea the letters he was writing were going to be dissected like they have been. I would think, had he known that, he would have been more careful with what he wrote. I am not saying he made errors. I wouldn’t even go there. But, I truly believe he would have been a lot more thorough to make sure his readers were understanding exactly what he was saying. But all of that is just conjecture. I do believe that Yah is sovereign and knew the misunderstandings that would come out of this and it was His will for things to be where they are now and have been for 2000 years. You are right, when you say, that to be having a serious debate about issues such as this, when people are hurting, is clearly wrong (not verbatim, but close). After all this time, the Church still doesn’t know who they really are. And the Jews sure don’t either. That might seem like a small thing to you, but it isn’t. Are you aware that the Feast of Yom Kippur will most likely be upon us in the very near future? Yom Kippur will bring the restoration of the land and the PEOPLE of Israel. Where will Yashua’s throne be? In the New Jerusalem. Everyone that is there will be submitted to Yashua, in the land of Israel. What will that make you? A citizen of Israel!!! Even as the homeborn. The people of the nations that are left from the Tribulation, will come up once a year to Jerusalem, to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, the last of the Fall Feasts. They are the Gentiles. I know you think I am deceived and deluded. That is okay and I understand where you are coming from with that. All that I am trying to get across, is that you can never fully understand the new without the old (I so dislike those terms, but it is what we have been left with). None of this takes anything away from the basic message you now know, but rather puts a foundation underneath of it. It is a rich history we share with our brothers from pre-new Testament times. It was YHWH’s plan from the beginning. There is so much. The scriptures are so rich. None of us have even really begun to understand all that Yah is doing and working towards on our behalf. Please understand, my intent here is not to argue or try and win something, but to contend for the Faith. I don’t expect you to believe any of this from my mouth. You need to search it out for yourself, if you are willing.

        One last thing. In your last post you said that basically we have to understand the Olive Tree discourse “contextually”. Do you not see what is being done here. If you contextualize everything, set up boundaries through dispensationalism, where the Word is talking about Israel, use a little replacement theology, you can make it say whatever you want. You have to pervert the word to get the desired outcome. Unwittingly and basically in ignorance, this is what we have been doing, because it is the tradition that has been handed down to us. I will leave it with this. I am out of time. I wish you well, my brother. Look forward to hearing from you, if you are so inclined.

        • Hi Al, Hope you are well.

          No, I don’t feel uncomfortable or offended in any way!
          We who accept Jesus/Yeshua are commissioned to preach
          the good news to all nations, so that all have the
          opportunity to come to salvation. God’s Word is
          essentially a book of salvation,for, had sin not
          entered not into the world, atonement would not be
          necessary. As we know, God gave Israel the perfect
          opportunity to come to repentance,and only a “few”
          responded. We all, individually, have an equal
          opportunity to come to salvation through Jesus,and
          we all should know, after having had the good news
          presented to us, the consequences for rejecting it.
          Whoever refuses to listen will be deemed to have
          made a conscious, deliberate decision. That’s it!
          I do believe that many Jews will come to accept Jesus,
          and I do hope that many more non-Jews will aslo, but I
          really can’t see why any particular group need be
          singled out as a special needs case, and I cannot see
          any reason why a Gentile need adopt a Jewish mind set,
          since circumcision of the heart is what now counts
          with God,replacing the old covenantial rituals and
          observances.
          I can understand a Jew wanting to maintain tradition,
          but I cannot understand why a non-Jew Christian would
          want to pursue a course that it culturally alien to
          to him, because he was never bound to such a course in
          the first place. Paul makes this all so clear in his
          letters.
          With regard to chosenness;.if the Jews are still God’s
          chosen, then wonderful; it would be great for the most
          despised people in the history of the world to be
          compensated in this way..the more the merrier. Either
          way,God will exercise His perfect will.
          But, at this moment in time, I do not believe them to
          be, because of new covenantial supersession.
          However, if anyone can scripturally support the idea
          of God having two distinct groups of chosen people,
          (since all who accept Jesus are His chosen),under the
          rulership of Jesus, as an unequal two-tier arrangement
          ,then I would be more than happy to see them.
          Finally,whatever the arrangement, we will all live
          happily ever after under Jesus’ perfect rule, in
          accord with Gods’s perfect will, and quite frankly,
          that’s all that really concerns me on this matter.
          When the Jews come to repentance, then I think we
          can all be happy!

          Blessings Al, and may the Lord be with you!

  144. Dear Leatherneck,

    Your heart seems to be troubled lately? May you find peace.

    I am sure that anything that I may say in respects to your dear Grandma though it might be comforting, wouldn’t mean a heck of a lot. So instead I’ll quote God, ” And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” (Colossians 2:13)
    If she is “born again” it is all a matter of the heart.

    Above in one of your posts you say, ” I sin every day too. We all do.” If I may add to that, none of us are perfect either. So where is our hope?
    When Yeshua died for our sins, did He die for just a few of them, or as God say’s above, for “ALL” of them?

    That is the glory of being a child of the New Covenant. There is no sin that Christ death wasn’t sufficient enough to cover. He meant what He said when He said, “It is finished.” His blood covers the sins of our past, our sins now, and our sins of the future. Amen. He is our hope, and there is nothing that we can do at all to add to that.
    NOTHING.

    There does appear to be a lot of talk on this post about us as believers, fulfilling certain commandments to be worthy of our salvation though. Which to me seems to consist more of Old Covenant teaching rather than what we all are under now.
    I wish to be considerate, and sensitive to what others might believe as I express the following, because it may just ruffle a few feathers. However, I would hope that all would at least consider it’s content.

    I hope that you would all agree that the Old Testament consisted of the Law and of Condemnation. It was full of repentance, renting of garments, wearing of sackcloth, throwing of ashes, and the numerous sacrifices, and rituals associated with it all. Whereas the New Covenant consists solely of Spirit, Grace, and abiding in Christ.

    When God gave Moses the Law, not only did it reveal to man his sin, it also left the responsibility up to man to reconcile himself to God. It was all left in our works,”You shall do this. You shall not do this. etc.”
    However, the New Covenant, is all about the Spirit of life, and all about God, and Yeshua.
    God now said, “I” will put my law in your heart.
    “I” will be your God.
    “I” will remember your sins no more.

    Above when those of you who are making reference to keeping Gods commandments, I am sure that none of you are speaking about the 613 ceremonial laws. However, that leaves me wondering if you are then speaking of the 10 commandments? If so….. are you sure that we are still under those laws?

    I am not speaking from my own opinion here, I only attempt to understand, and follow Gods word.
    I would be interested to hear anyone else’s opinions regarding the following.
    What does God say through Paul?

    2 Corinthians 3: 2-18

    2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech– 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    What is the context of what God is saying through Paul here?

    – We are ministers of the New Covenant by the Spirit of the living God.
    – We minister not of the letter, (the letter kills) but of the Spirit, for the Spirit gives life.
    – Not written in ink, or tablets of stone. (What were the only laws that were written in stone?)
    – Read verse 7 to see what God Himself calls the 10 commandments. “The ministry of death.”
    – That Christ is through who we trust.
    – That we are not capable to do anything by ourselves, and that our sufficiency is solely from God.
    – That the veil of the law is taken away by Christ. He is our hope, and liberty.

    Romans 7: 4-7

    “4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

    We are now dead to the law. What were the laws that said ” You shall not covet “?

    Continuing….. Romans 7: 8-25

    ” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

    – Here is Paul, completely anointed with the Holy Spirit, capable through God of performing every gift given by the Spirit, drowning in the condemnation that was revealed by the law. Yet if we are ministers of the New Covenant and no longer live by the law, but live rather by the Spirit, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1)

    I think that it would be fair to say, that we all tend to beat ourselves up a lot. Not that we should exalt ourselves, but rather we should try to keep things in perspective. Paul sinned and wasn’t perfect either.
    But I suspect that everyone would agree, that he is loved as a child of the Father.
    Was that because of all of the wonderful sacrifices and works that he did? Or did he gain that love simply by accepting Yeshua as the Messiah, and Savior?

    In respect to the commandments. I don’t believe we are under any law other than to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. We are free to live by the Spirit, to trust in our hope and liberty as we abide lovingly in Christ our Savior. Amen.

    Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.
    Shalom in Yeshua

  145. I just have a couple of comments on some recent blogs.
    First of all, as far as the “chosenness” of the Jews and whether the new “Israel” is the Christians (many being from the lost tribes), I’m not too concerned about it as it will be between God and His people and there isn’t much we can do about it. God will sort it all out in the end.

    As for the question about those who have attended Sunday services in the past, they will not be punished for it. Even those who “take the mark” during the tribulation will no be doomed. Worst case scenario will be that they miss the millennium and are part of the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years, when everyone ever born is resurrected. When that happens, everyone will live again for perhaps (I’ve heard) 100 years and will be taught the gospel, the commandments and everything they need to know to achieve eternal life. Then they have free will to decide to believe in God and follow His laws and live forever, or to go back to “sleep” which is the second death from which there is no return.
    I’m sure there will be some people of other faiths, like Muslims, who will ask to die again so that they can find Allah and get their 72 virgins etc.
    Now, if granny refuses to honor the true sabbath after 100 years of instruction, well… bye bye granny. Many dyed-in-the-wool Catholics and anti-Semites (maybe even Martin Luther?) may choose not to change their ways and would rather be dead. To each his own.

    Here is God’s word on the first resurrection:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    You can see from v.4 that those with the mark of the beast, perhaps throughout the ages, do not participate in the first resurrection, only the second one (v.5)
    Note from v.6 that those that have part of the first resurrection are “blessed and holy” and become priests of God for 1000 years. What I get from this that there won’t be any popes in the millennium. No false preachers, no pushers of the rapture or believers in heaven and hell. In other words, NO “Babelonians” or paganists.
    So if I’m right I won’t be seeing any friends or family members (all Catholics) in the millennium. No Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe etc. Oh well, they would all make terrible 7-the day Adventists anyway. But they will all be back in the end and if they are humble in the face of God they will repent and change their beliefs.
    This is just conjecture on my part so I’d like to hear what everyone thinks about what I’ve said.
    Bless y’all.

  146. James;You foucs on religion, the sabbath and the Law. It doesn’t save you. Even the Jews argue amongst themselves; “Who is a Jew”. Look at my posts on:
    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/sabbath-wars/#comment-35923

  147. Yes James,

    It does appear to me that you have put aside the doctrines of your old beliefs, yet maintained the same legalism within your new ones.

    Law & our works, have nothing to do with our Salvation.
    It all consists of the Spirit and of the state of our heart now.

    Shalom in Yeshua

  148. Hi Gregg;

    Nice solid,spiritual read..thanks.
    Would like to elaborate on the meaning of grace in relation to
    salvation, if I may. As we know, grace is the result of Jesus’
    atoning sacrifice, which exonerates us from the consequence of
    inherent sin,which is death,(even though we are not responsible for our sinful nature)…grace being our provision for salvation.
    Contrary to what many think, being under grace is not a guarantee of salvation, it is the means by which we can be saved, by demonstrating faith in Jesus; and as you quite rightly say, fulfills the old covenant Law. However, it does not replace the law, but rather embodies every aspect of it;so there is nothing wrong in saying that
    we should keep the commandments; Jesus said it himself….John 15:10
    Now the crux of the matter is that, being under grace and with help
    from God’s spirit, does not annul our sinful nature, but empowers us
    to resist sin, ONLY if we choose to, and as we all know, we will err
    from time to time, but we must always repent daily in prayer and
    seek forgiveness as a matter of course,and we will be forgiven.
    Unfortunately,many have been falsely led to believe that under grace,
    repentance is not necessary, since their sins are automatically
    covered, and therefore forgiven. This is a lie from Satan and will
    cost many their salvation, which, in fact, they never had in the
    first place, since salvation is the reward of a repentant heart.
    Paul reminds us of this via his warning to the Corinthian
    congregation;

    ” Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”….. 1 Cor 6:8-10

    We must remember that Paul was addressing individuals who previously
    were licentious and pagan; but nevertheless they were under grace
    when he made the consequences clear.
    So grace without works is not sufficient; it all comes down to the
    desire NOT to sin, which God will honour by empowering us with His
    spirit, which will stay with us for as long as we desire not to sin.
    This is true repentance and the mark of a gracious person who really
    does understand the meaning and magnitude of Jesus’ sacrifice!

    I think James has been misunderstood..poor chap. I think we can call
    off the lynch mob now!

    God bless.

    • Hi Richard,

      Thanks. I have enjoyed reading many of your comments as well.

      In respects to my comments directed to James, they were merely an expressed observation, and not meant in anyway to be a judgment at all. James, if you are reading this, and took what I said that way, I would like to apologize to you. It is just my hope that you would carry the yoke of Christ, instead of religion.

      The Epistles to the Galatians, Colossians, and Romans far overshadow any particular cultural customs and ritual observances, and clearly emphasize our freedom from all external rules as the key to the entire New Testament Gospel. That, indeed, is the “Good News.” Matthew 11:28-30, “28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

      So ….. Richard, I agree with quite a lot of what you say above.
      Your 1st. paragraph for instance. I do though have a different point of view in what you say within the 2nd. However, I have a prior commitment tonight. If you don’t mind waiting, I will more than likely be able to respond to you tomorrow.

      Till then, Shalom in Yeshua

      • Hi Gregg,

        In no way were your words taken the wrong way…this is
        all good, healthy,solid debate,enhanced with a good dose
        of tongue-in-cheek…doesn’t get better than that!

        Re: Mosaic Law and ritual. Let’s say Jesus spiritualized
        the statute book…and who would want to be without his
        yoke?!

        God bless.

  149. Thanks Richard. Great explanation. I’m sure Hitler believed in Jesus but that won’t save his ass on judgement day.

    I do have one point of logic for those who do not believe the mark of the beast is about breaking a commandment and actually about accepting a bar code or embedded chip without which you can no longer buy pop tarts.
    If we are all saved by grace, then who cares about the chip? Why are we supposed to even worry about it? John makes a big deal out of it in Revelation so he must of thought it was an important part of his vision.
    Clearly it must be something important to God. Either God hates electronic banking or he hates to have His commandments changed at the whim of some pope.
    But suppose you are right and you make it into the millennium as a priest/teacher. Are you going to teach the world – survivors of the tribulation – to pray to statues of saints and to worship on Sunday? And will you still celebrates Christ’s birthday on the pagan day of Saturnalia? The actual birthday of Tammuz, the false savior of ancient Babel?
    And Easter for his mother Semiramis?
    So if God isn’t going to let people pull that kind of crap in His millennial reign, how do you think He feels about folks who are doing it right now? I believe He wants us to cut the crap and get on board now before it’s too late.
    Remember – Mystery Babylon is hated by God and the angels rejoice when it is destroyed. Babylon is symbolic for all the paganism in the churches today. God wants his bride to be pure and perfect. If grace were all we needed then why even have a tribulation? Who’s it for and why is it in our bible?

    I sometimes imagine if the devil was on TV in a covert ministry, what would he teach?
    “I am the devil – worship ME”? No – too direct. He needs to be more subtle.
    “Bow down to new gods?“ Worked for the ancient Israelites, but probably not today.
    “Go ahead and break God’s commandments – He no longer cares.“ – That might get God’s attention.
    “Hey, don’t sweat anything – everyone in the church is going to be raptured to heaven before anything bad happens.“ Well that would get him some followers, anyway.
    “If you want to be in my ministry you will all need to put chips in your foreheads.” – Now that doesn’t even make sense.

    So the “saved by grace“ and “saved by the rapture” are the only ploys that Satan can use here to be effective and not too obvious. And gee, you tend to see this almost everywhere today. Maybe that’s why God is holding a great tribulation. Well it must be for some good reason.

    Well, lets hear what Jesus Himself has to say:

    Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Well, there you go – looks like when God’s kingdom on earth gets here those who are resurrected as priests/teachers will be teaching the commandments! And Jesus says He didn’t come to change the law one bit. The “laws” he fulfilled were the holy feasts – Passover, unleavened bread, firstfruits, etc. NOT the commandments.

    You can believe Jesus, or go with a clever interpretation of Paul who probably should have made his points a bit clearer.

    So to quote a line from Dirty Harry – “Are you feeling lucky?”
    Well are you?

    God bless! :)

    • James;

      Always an engaging and informative read! Thanks!

      (ps: I see you’ve come with a full moon. Can we expect your humour
      to be pure luna-cy from now on?)

      • Hi Richard,
        I took the moon shot last night outside my apartment. I’m creating a night scene with the full moon in the sky and decided to shoot a close-up of the moon to Photoshop into the time exposure of the ground. Figured after all that work I would use the photo for something else while I was at it.
        Also I went to college as an astronomy major in 1967, so I’m partial to heavenly bodies. :)

        • James;

          It’s a great shot and has the hallmark of an expert
          photographer,and sounds as if you are. What a gift/
          skill that is! I remember the Apollo 11 moon landing
          as a 13/14 year old in 1969, with those haunting live
          pictures from the moon, so it must have been a great
          day for you and your college associates! However,I do
          now believe that such exploration goes beyond the
          bounds God set for us, and it really is a result of
          scientific vanity, for which now seems to know no
          bounds, which ultimately is of no positive value to
          mankind,but rather satisfies the desires of the fallen nature with inevitable ensuing consequences.
          However,there is of course a positive side to science,
          with the telescope and microscope being two of the
          the greatest inventions, and it really is awe inspiring
          to see close up, the mastery of God’s creative power.
          If we could just look, and not touch, and spend the
          rest of the time praising God for what he hes done,
          instead of poking our “all knowing finger” in to
          God’s “untouchable creative mechanism”, then I think
          most of us would be happy to sit under “that tree”,
          and let the apples fall on our head, to fill our
          stomachs to our hearts content, and never feel the
          urgency to know what molecular structure is responsible
          for that heavenly flavour, and why the apples fell in
          the first place.(man only need learn by observation).
          It’s a strange old world, so lets yearn for that day
          whan we can all be back in that simple “garden”; with
          only our telescopes; after all, there will be many
          heavenly bodies that we will want to see close up,
          for which we are all partial to ! Happy squinting!
          End of rant!

          God bless you!

  150. Richard, Al, Gregg, James, leatherneck
    Get a Gravatar. It will be easier to idenify your posts. If you don’t want a picture of yourself posted, choose some icon. I like that Star of David siverglepha posted. You can even add text to the Gravatar. Lyndsey changes her gravatar all the time.

    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/gravatar-how-to-get-one/

  151. Hi Richard,

    I appreciate the words that you have written above. As I said earlier, I agree with much of what you say.
    As a matter of fact, in taking the time to read that specific post again before responding, I would say that so far, we are at least 99.9% of the same mind set.
    I agree that confession, asking Christ for forgiveness daily, and a sincere effort of repentance is necessary.
    I agree as stated in my post above, that we are no longer under the law or commandments, but that in essence, they are now written in our hearts, and it is out of our love and desire to be obedient that we now fulfill them.
    Not in maintaining specific days, or in participating in traditional rituals, but rather in expressing a sincere love and compassion for others. Which Yeshua clearly demonstrated to the religious order of the day, had more righteous spiritual significance than the doctrines that they happened to believe in at the time.

    Where we do differ in one aspect, is where you say,”Contrary to what many think, being under grace is not a guarantee of salvation”.

    I suspect what would be the determining factor here, would be what ones definition or requirement would be, for being under grace. In what my personal faith consists of, that factor would be a sincere and complete acceptance of Christ within ones heart. A truly “born again believer.”

    And if that indeed is the prerequisite, then I believe that Ephesians 1:2-14 actually does “guarantee” (literally) our salvation.

    “2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth–in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    The word that is translated from the original Greek as “guarantee”, is the the transliterated word “arrabōn”.(Strong’s # 728) It’s definition is, ” money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid “.
    In essence, it is a security of a promise, or covenant.

    With that said, this is what I have discovered so far on my journey.
    Salvation is a process. The act of becoming born again through the gift of grace, instantly places us in the position of “Justification.” But in my opinion, salvation is definitely a life long, ongoing process.

    Justification (Strong’s # 1347, Dikaiosis, “the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to Him”) leads us to the process of Sanctification, (Strong’s # 38, Hagiasmos,”consecration, purification, the effect of consecration , sanctification of heart and life.”) which would then lead to our Glorification.

    Unfortunately, my beliefs can not be briefly explained. I can say that they are contrary theologically to that of Calvinism, or Arminianism in that I would be placed within the “Once saved, always saved” category.
    To elaborate on it in any detail, I would have to write a book. Thankfully, if you are interested, there is one already published and available. “The Kingdom, Power & Glory” by Chuck & Nancy Missler for the most part express’s what it is that I believe.

    James……. In respects to Hitler.
    Believing in Jesus, and surrendering yourself in humble servitude are two totally different things.

    Shalom in Yeshua

    • Hi Gregg;

      You are right..the Law is written on our hearts and it is the Holy
      Spirit which enables us to honour the essence of the Law, without
      having to know the letter of the law, as was the case under the
      Mosaic covenant, which, as we know, could not be honoured with human
      effort alone. Now that we under grace, and are empowered with God’s
      Spirit, we are now able to keep all commandments,by loving God first
      ,then our neighbours as ourselves, and along with the fruits of the
      spirit, will enable us towards our perfect goal to be Christ-like;
      which is how we will be identified when he comes for his flock.

      You have a finely tuned spiritual mind, Gregg..it is a pleasure to
      read your thoughts !

      Thanks for the suggestion of the book, but I don’t read “Christian”
      literature. I prefer the simple approach; God’s thoughts directly
      from His Word, convicted and sealed by the Spirit. I believe this
      is how we are to learn. However, being pointed in the right direction
      by people who truly know the Lord, should never be shunned,but in
      this case, I do not consider the people you mentioned to be in that
      class,by virtue of their teachings.

      God bless.

      • Hi Richard,

        Again Thanks, so do you.
        I don’t think that it is possible for us as believer’s to ever reach a full consensus on every topic. But really when you think about it, it’s not even up to us. :-) Thank God.

        I look forward to meeting you, whenever that may be.

        Shalom in Yeshua brother

  152. Gregg,
    I’m glad you agree that a person’s actions (works) are a part of the new covenant. But the big question is, what does “humble servitude” entail? How de we serve God? God has already told us how to serve Him – by following His laws and commandments. Has this changed? Here’s what Jesus said:
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    All will not be fulfilled until the second coming (at least) so we are still under the law. This will be our test during the tribulation. Those who have abandoned His commandments will receive the mark, those that keep them will not:
    Revelation 14:11-12
    11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    These verses make it clear that punishment will given to those with the mark, but those without the mark are “they tat keep the commandments of God.”
    Therefore we can only conclude that the mark is the breaking of a commandment.
    Guess which one…

    But many Christians choose to ignore these verses simply because it feels much better to believe that we don’t have to do anything more than say we believe Christ died for our sins and we are guaranteed salvation. I know we are supposed to have His law written in our hearts, but what does that mean? Actually, when God writes things like this He writes them into our right hands and foreheads. He puts His laws into our minds (forehead) and expects us to transfer them to our right hands (our deeds). So they are worthless in the mind if they are not practiced in our deeds. So it is a very slippery slope you and others are on. Unfortunately, the majority of Christians believe this and they are constantly bolstering each other’s beliefs on the subject. It’s like being hooked on drugs in a way. It’s a feel-good kind of religion. But this is part of prophecy, so it will not change no matter what I say. After all – the whole world will follow the beast and the true church is but a remnant. I’m just glad I’m in the minority here, otherwise I would be truly worried.
    Food for thought…
    Bless.

  153. Hi James,

    Well I believe we are just going to have to respect each others right to have different viewpoints. We certainly aren’t the first to do that.
    lol. Nor I suspect the last.

    I will respond to your post though, since you were kind enough to respond to mine. You ask above, “But the big question is, what does “humble servitude” entail? How do we serve God?”

    Well, I will respond with as to how, by simply stating what Yeshua Himself said as He addressed the multitudes in the beginning of Matthew Chapter 5:
    By being poor of spirit, by mourning, in being meek, by hungering, and thirsting for righteousness, by being merciful, by being pure in heart,
    by being a peacemaker. And if need be, by rejoicing in being persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

    By being the salt of the earth. By being a light in the world.

    James, I believe if you continue to read past the verse that you quoted above where Christ says, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” You will see in verse 23, and 24 that He then makes reference to still requiring to make sacrifices on the altar.

    “23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”

    May I ask you James, why is it that we don’t continue to do that now then, as a requirement of our faith? I suspect you might reply with something similar to, “Because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice in shedding His blood for the forgiveness of our sins.” or with words to that effect.
    And I would then wholeheartedly agree with you in that statement. Amen.

    So my next question would be, “Okay then, when was it that the New Covenant actually took effect for that to be true? Was it during the Gospels of Christ’s ministry, or did it begin in actuality at the time of His death, and resurrection?” It is my belief, at that point in time that the old passed away, and the grace of the new took effect.
    Then there was Pentecost, the gift of the Holy Spirit,and the beginning of the Church, and body of Christ.

    I would like to sincerely thank you for your concern regarding your beliefs in respect to the mark of the beast. However I feel quite secure in my heart in regards to my my beliefs, and don’t expect to be wearing a mark anytime soon. (or later for that matter)

    I do appreciate the time that you took to express what it is that you believe though James. Because whether I happen to agree with what you have to say or not, doesn’t diminish the fact that in taking the time to write, you have demonstrated that you care.
    God Bless you brother.
    Shalom in Yeshua.

    • “Okay then, when was it that the New Covenant actually took effect for that to be true? Was it during the Gospels of Christ’s ministry, or did it begin in actuality at the time of His death, and resurrection?”
      It is my belief, at that point in time that the old passed away, and the GRACE of the NEW took effect.”

      Just a small post-script with some scripture to support my belief.

      Matt. 27:50,51: “50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

      Mark 15:38,39: ” 38 Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”

      Luke 23:45 “45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”

      Hebrews 6:19,20 “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

      Hebrews 10:19-21 “19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,”

      All of these support the belief that the New Covenant began only after Our Lords blood was shed. It was only then that the veil of the Holiest of Holies was removed. The context of Hebrews 9 and 10 are a good read in respects to this topic.

      The old passed away, and God created the NEW.

      James,
      I don’t believe that we do good works, or have need to follow the Torah to attain our salvation.
      To me that is trying to add to what Christ has already done for us. He clearly stated,”That is is finished.”
      I believe that we do good works towards others, and follow the laws that are written upon our heart, because we have received the Spirit of the Lord “through salvation”.
      The reason that I added this, is because I have a question to ask you. Wouldn’t it be satan’s desire for us to believe that what Christ did for all of us wasn’t enough? That somehow it wasn’t sufficient, and that we have to add to it ourselves, by following the ways of the old?

      As you say, Food for thought.

      Shalom in Yeshua

      • Well Gregg.
        There is a difference between works and keeping the commandments. If you ask a catholic he will tell you that you must not only believe Christ died for our sins but you must be a devout catholic and participate in the sacramental “mysteries” of the church (confession, communion, mass etc.) and be Christ-like toward others. Slip up and you will burn in hell forever.
        Yet they deleted the 2nd commandment from the bible and violate the 4th every Sunday.
        So keeping God’s law and doing good works are completely different. The commandments were written in stone to remind us they are to last forever. In a few years the Wyatt Archaeological group will finally reach the ark of the covenant in Jeremiah’s grotto beneath Jerusalem and I believe at that time God will make it clear that they still exist (sorry Catholics) and are to be obeyed.
        What I don’t understand about the idea that the commandments are now “written in our hearts” and that is somehow enough for God. If we know them but ignore them, what is the point? We all know that it we become killers for the mob, we won’t see eternal life, no matter how much we love Christ, so what about the other nine? Just because most commandments are not against the law in most countries we somehow feel that God doesn’t think they are important either.

        I sometimes imagine a scene from the New Testament – Jesus dies on the cross and immediately the apostles go running thru the streets of Jerusalem shouting “Jesus is dead! The law is repealed! Eat pork, drink booze and party down – we’re free to do whatever we want.” This would have been great news to the Jews of the day. And the Catholics could have become a great party church.
        Well, that is what is happening today. Preachers everywhere are teaching “The commandments were nailed to the cross. Come to my church/buy my book and I’ll show you that you are sure to be raptured and you don’t have keep any of God’s laws to qualify – unless you really want to, which you should, but you don’t have to, so come follow me, and perhaps make a small donation while you’re at it.”
        For a while I used to believe that. I started out a catholic, then found the bible and was born again, but I believed in these popular ideas, mostly because they were what I heard first and were the most common.
        But something about them didn’t ring true with me so I studied harder and looked at what everyone else was saying. As I learned more and more, pieces started to fall into place and old beliefs began to fall away.
        As a former science student (astronomy and geology) and a working engineer and technical writer and computer programmer, my mind works in a very logical manner. I investigate everything carefully, compare theories and try to come to a intelligent conclusion.
        At the same time, I keep an open mind when new data becomes available (the hallmark of all of our great scientists (like Galileo). So I appreciate your comments as they give me opportunity to grow and learn. But I find that sometimes just as I’ve got my jigsaw puzzle almost finished, I run across teaching that requires me to toss out pieces rather than help me place more of them. I’m not expecting you to believe what I’m saying, I know I can’t do that with most people. All I can ask, or suggest, is to keep an open mind and read everything you can in opposition to what you currently believe. Give it sincere consideration and try to find blatant errors in it – obvious mistakes or deliberate fabrication. Do this with your own beliefs as well. In engineering/programming we call it troubleshooting. You have to make sure a circuit is going to work before firing it up just to see what will happen. I’ve been working on this circuit board called the Book of Revelation for some time now and it consists of many exotic and never before tested components. If we don’t get this one figured out it could very well blow up in our faces.
        So keep troubleshooting friends – and may God bless you in your efforts.

        • James;

          I do think we agree on this. Hebrews 10:16 states
          that the law is written on our hearts; and John 14:15
          states in Jesus’ word; “If you love me, you will keep
          my commandments”.I think it comes down to how we express
          this. The law certainly has not been abolished, since
          the unrighteous will be judged by it, Rom 2:12, but
          those who are covered by grace because of faith in Jesus
          ,are not subject to the law, whilst under grace.
          We do not of course forget the essence of the ten
          commandments, because we have to know that adultery,
          for ex. is a capital sin; but we are no longer judged
          by the law should we break a commandment under grace.
          However, genuine repentance will be necessary to
          maintain our position of grace; and there is no doubt
          that we can lose our salvation if we persist in sin after having tasted the goodness of God.
          “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned”. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

          Hope you are well!

          God bless.

          • Hi Richard,

            I think that you explained the topic of law and grace well there.

            In regards to Hebrews 6:4-8, this is where I believe that God looks at our hearts.

            Many have messed up in their lives at one time or another, due to emotional difficulties in say, with dealing (or not dealing) with an abusive upbringing for example. Not necessarily because they turned from their belief in Christ.

            That is where I believe that the parable of the “prodigal son” comes into play. God knows why we fall from grace at times, and He knows where are hearts are when we do.

            “12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” Matthew 18: 12-14

            I personally am so thankful that He said…..
            “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:15 – Exodus 33:19

            Shalom in Yeshua

            • Hi Gregg;

              Thanks. With regard to Heb.6:4-8, there
              appears to be no doubt that these verses
              are referring to those who have continued
              unrepentantly in sin, and have become hard
              -hearted to the point where they no longer
              have the capacity or the desire for fellow-
              ship with God, so he no longer prompts
              with His spirit. I’m afraid this is a
              rather large spanner in the wheels of the
              “once saved always saved” bandwagon.
              However, the prodigal son came home to God
              ,because he was truly repentant. It’s that
              simple..thank God!
              Regarding the effects of mental and
              emotional trauma, God predisposes us
              accordingly, so that we all have an equal
              opportunity of salvation. If this were not
              so, it would be impossible for Jesus to
              execute judgment, since the criteria for
              salvation would be void. It is worth
              noting that many traumatized persons would
              never have accepted Jesus had they not
              been.
              Let’s not forget that only few will walk
              the narrow way to salvation.
              Regarding “God showing mercy”, I believe
              it relates to those whose mental faculties
              are impaired, which renders them bereft of
              accountability, due to,for example; Autism
              , retardation and brain diseases, etc.
              And the lost sheep; well, if it has one
              ounce of woolly sense, it will willingly
              return to the flock with it’s shepherd;
              if not, it’s a another woolly jumper for
              the devil to wear. Can’t wait to see him
              fleeced!

              Blessings in Jesus/Yeshua.

              • Hi Richard,
                Yes I agree with this as well.
                I apologize.
                I should have been more specific, and explained my definition of “Once saved always saved”.

                How you would have probably interpreted that phrase, would have more than likely been more closely asscociated to what it is that the “Grace movement” of today seems to be preaching.
                Teachers like Steve McVey for example.

                Forgive me.
                I believe that once you are born again, you will ultimately be saved, if you continually seek relationship.
                That would consist of confessing of sins, as the Spirit convicts us.
                Doing the best that we can, to sincerely be repentant.
                Surrendering of ego, and of self, daily and allowing God to fulfill His desire in your life. (etc.)

                I believe that salvation is indeed a free gift, however, that does not mean that we are not left without any responsibilities.
                Free gift yes, free ride no.

                The intention of our hearts to share in relationship, must be maintained.

                Hope that clears that up for you.
                (and for others.)
                Shalom in Yeshua

  154. I think that it important for all of us to recognize, that salvation
    under grace does embody requirements that if adhered to will make us
    truly Christ-like. Jesus, Paul and other categorically condemn false
    teachers and the resulting deadly false teaching, which I do believe
    to be rampant in the “churches”, together with pagan practices of
    “Babylon”. The true manifestation of a Christ-like disposition is
    purity, and this simply cannot be achieved amidst leaven.
    This really does determine the degree to which we desire to worship God in spirit and in truth…a theme expressly featured throughout the epistles, with the resulting consequences for non-compliance,
    clearly stated. What we must ask ourselves is; “Do we have love
    of the truth in us” ?!
    “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” 2Thess. 2:10-11

    God bless.

  155. James and Richard;
    You got a gravtar. cool! Add some text to your gravatar. Those of you who haven’t done it, try it. Good Posts.

  156. Hi James,

    In respnse to your post above 01/23/4;07am.

    I constantly question through the Spirit what it is that I may be investigating , or exploring spiritually, before I ever allow it to rest within my heart. And the lid to my “box” is never locked when it comes to the word of God.
    I think all good Berean’s should be willing to take into consideration the view points of others, and then see if they line up within scripture. I think anybody who declares that they fully understand all things, are frankly deluding themselves.

    As I have stated, it is all a process. As we seek with pureness of heart, we are taught through Gods word.
    Though at the same time, I am more than aware that I do not have the intellectual capacity to ever fully comprehend it’s complexity. However, that does not deter me from still seeking, and attempting to learn what I can.

    And what I have learned is this; If you believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, the Son of God, and you believe that He shed His blood for us on the cross for the atonement of our sins, and you accept Him within your heart, then you are “born again”, and a new creation. Then if you are willing to “take up your cross” surrender your life as best as you possibly can to Him, then He will change you more and more, as you choose to trust and abide in Him.

    If we make that personal choice to do that daily, (though we will all falter from time to time), then that responsibility for us to change is solely up to Him.

    “It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Phil. 2:13

    “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

    I am clearly not capable of becoming sanctified, or Holy on my own. I need to fully rely upon God, Christ, and the Spirit to be my source in going through that process. So now it becomes the sincere desire, and intentions of my heart. Thankfully when I stand in front of Christ as He sit’s on the bema seat and judges me, He will know my heart.
    And if I am truly a child of the Father, then I will trust in what He said……..
    “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:39.

    Again James, I respect your right to have views that happen to differ from mine. However, (though this is just my opinion and I do leave this in the hands of God), I do fully expect to meet you, whenever that may be.
    We’ll have a cup of mana juice together, I hear that it’s good. :-)

    Shalom in Yeshua

  157. The Mother of Harlots is Rome with her Babylonian Influenced Mix of Christianity and Paganism. She is the Mother of Harlots – Unfortunately the Harlots are the Majority of QUOTE Christian Churches today which follow man’s education and wisdom instead of the Spirit of God. Matthew 28:19 is taken literally when it obviously points to Acts 2:38. God becomes a Trinity when it is obvious that he is ONE. He can manifest himself in many ways but he is STILL ONE God. Trust in education and wisdom – the scribes and pharisees did also – I however trust in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
    The Leopard-Lion-Bear of Revelation represents the area of the Middle east now controlled by Muslim Countries. Allah and Muhammad are the copycats of the True Church. The world doesn’t have to be deceived by the Devil because this is the end-time and the Christian Churches are already deceived by the wisdom of men and lulled by the cares and comforts of this world.

    When the Son of Man comes will he find Faith on the Earth
    Man Trusts in everything But God – he is the last resort after the doctors and counselors and worldly wisdom when he should be first.

    How can the worldly churches every truly understand Revelation when they have yet to receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ – The fullness of the Godhead bodily. These Three are one, I and my Father are one, I come in my Father’s name and you receive me not — able to see but still blind – I pray God open up the eyes of people but I’m afraid it’s too late for most – there is no great revival – just a great falling away – and it’s about over.

  158. You are right on about the paganism in todays churches – almost all of them. Just one note on the leopard, bear and lion though.
    We all know they are referencing the first three beast-kingdoms of Daniel’s statue – greece, Persia and Babylon, but they do not refer to the current real estate on which the ancient empires were built. After all Alexander the Great conquered India as well but nobody believes the Hindus are part of the prophecy.
    What John was showing here was that the paganism had its roots in Babylon (lion) and that it managed to propagate thru the successive conquerors (bear and leopard) until it reached the beast of John – the Holy Roman Empire. In fact the term “MYSTERY BABYLON” refers to a pagan Babylonian religion that was still around when the early Christian church was formed, which became a blend of Christian doctrines along with many pagan practices and holidays.
    Just because Islam grew up in the area of Babylon (actually it began in Saudi Arabia well to the south) doesn’t mean that the prophecy was referring to it. It is about the ancient cultures and religions, not who happens to be living there today.
    Sure, Islam is a false religion, but Jesus is not returning to marry Islam. He will be marrying the Christian church, but not before the pagan Babylonian influences have been destroyed. This is the entire point of Revelation and the mark of the beast will be to test and punish latter day Christians who do not obey God’s laws and who defile His church with pagan practices and rituals.
    Unfortunately, only a select group will pass this test. Most of the rest will follow the beast.
    May God bless all of us with the knowledge of how to pass this test.

  159. http://whenthepiecesfit.org/images/11.fromhercup.pdf
    Saudi Arabia also has 7 hills.
    The real British monarchy was usurped in middle ages.

    http://www.juancole.com/2008/02/burkes-peerage-queen-elizabeth-ii.html

  160. I have found this thread to be very interesting. I am coming to the same conclusions shared on this thread. I believe that the Papacy is the great beast in Rev 13:1-10. The two horned beast in Rev 13 is the United States a nation coming up during the time that the Papacy lost its ability to persecute heretics by the power of the state when France took the Pope captive in 1798. The image to the Beast is that mixture of United States military power under the control and direction of the Papacy through diplomatic terms.
    Revelation 17 takes us into the wilderness where God’s Protestant church fled to from the attacks of the fallen church the Papacy – The Roman Catholic Church – see the woman in chapter 12 of Revelation. In Chapter 17 God takes John into the wilderness to see the progress of the Protestant church and finds it is now Babylon the Great Harlot. The Protestant church has accepted the principles of the Papacy, the sign of its authority – Sunday worship rather than the 4th commandment of God, she is willing to use the state to persecute heretics. Thus she looks, acts, talks just like the RCC. So she is a church unlawfully combined with the state. When she changes the constitution to unite church and state she will then finally act like the Papacy in that she will pass laws to stop people who theologically differ from her from buying and selling and eventually she will attempt to put all dissenters to death.

  161. For those interested in more study on ths subject please see my commentaries on Daniel and Revealtion at:
    http://www.the1844way.com

  162. The woman does not sit on seven hills but on seven mountains which are the seven empires. In Egypt she was known as Isis, in Babylon as Ishtar also with many other names like Astarte etc in different places. In Malta she was known as Queen of heaven. In pre-Islam Mecca as Uzza. Muhammed said in Hadith that “Paradise is the feet of the mother” Roman Catholic Church knows her as Virgin Mary or Queen of Heaven. Everywhere she is known as the goddess of fertility and mother god. She is nobody else but the presentation of devil himself who everywhere and at all times wanted to get people bowing him. Today she has been substituted as Mother Earth. Antichrist is not interested in women simply because devil is inside him after having thrown out of heaven and only requesting everybody to bow him. Nothing new under the sun. All the times people have been bowing one and the same “god”

  163. I tend to believe that the 7 hills is in Las Vegas Nevada.
    Shaken down by earthquakes–the whole world that arrives to it’s city will scream and be shocked by its fall and destruction. City of Babylon? Possibly. We will have to stay very close to God and Jesus and pray and wait upon him regardless. All true believers in Jesus will know when the time comes…if they are not sleeping.

    • Welcome G.W.77,
      Well this is a new one. I lived in LV for a little while and studied the geology of the area for a few years. Las Vegas or “The Meadows” is in a valley between two mtn ranges, part of the “Basin and Range” province of the southwest U.S. No matter how hard I try I can’t justify the “7 Hills” theory.
      But putting that aside, since a woman in prophecy always represents a church (either true or apostate) I’m trying to figure out exactly which church is headquartered in Vegas. Perhaps God wants to destroy all those quickie marriage chapels throughout the city. I’m for that.
      But here is my main thought. While gambling may be a sin, it is not even a commandment. If God is going to be so mad about something that He is willing to destroy it and even write it down in the bible, it ought to be something big. If Satan wants to get people to defy the laws of God he would not choose gambling. He will most likely trick real Christians into breaking the commandments maybe without them even realizing it. Now that would be a mark of a true beast.
      Anyway, I believe it is something to think about. It seems to be important that we understand it.
      More thoughts anyone?

      • Hi James,

        Just out of interest, could you quote me scripture as to where gambling is stated as being a sin?
        Thanks dude.

        • Hi Gregg,
          Actually I know of none. And while I’m not a gambler, I do sell a group of computer programs for professional horse racing players, so I’m hoping it is not a big deal to the man up there. After all, look at how popular bingo is at many churches. Guess they know something, so I’m not going to shut down my business any time soon. :)

          • “Wise stewardship of extra money calls believers to invest it in the Lord’s work or to save it for an emergency, rather than lose it in games in which the odds are stacked against the player.

            Gamblers covet more money, but they may also covet the things money can buy, such as cars, boats, houses, expensive jewelry and clothing. The Bible forbids a covetous attitude in the Tenth Commandment:

            “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Exodus 20:17, NIV)……

            …for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. (2 Peter 2:19) ”

            http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/isgamblingasin.htm

            • If you’re not careful how you interpret the verse you might never take your family on a vacation, or dine out or put a token in an arcade game.
              Some people like those here at my retirement complex enjoy an outing to a local casino as a form of entertainment and relaxation. They are not addicted to the love of money so I don’t think they are sinners for having an enjoyable “day out.”
              I think bankers, real estate investors and folks who play the stock market are more like what you are referring to.
              Of course it is those capitalists that built this country including the internet which we are using here for God’s work, so it’s a touchy question I guess.

          • Hi James,

            Nope, I don’t believe that there are any.
            The only reference to gambling would be in the “casting of lots” and even God Himself proposed that be done to make specific decisions.
            I think that it all comes down to the motivation in the heart of the individual.
            If you spend a buck or two on the lottery with the hopes that you could maybe win enough to make your future a little more secure, and utilize the excess as a tool to help and assist others, then that is okay with God.

            Yet if ones heart is simply set on gain and covetousness of things for yourself, then He may just have a problem with that.

            Like everything, I think that it all comes down to the motivations and intentions of our hearts. Just my opinion though.
            But no, I wouldn’t suggest that you shut down the ole business.lol.
            Blessings >

  164. I wasn’t refering to just the gambling my friend.
    I lived and worked in Las Vegas for almost 4 years..I won’t say at this time what drove me to leave quickly–one day I may.

    I DO tend to wonder if this isn’t the 7 Hills that John spoke of…why? Do your homework, the history, YES there is an actual 7 Hills that the city is built on, not to mention built on liquified sand–great for shaking and ‘sinking.’ The washes run under the entire city-under the casinos. New Years eve preps have the military down at the washes flushing for “B’s”…you did know about this also correct?

    You said that you lived there..well then you should know what it is like to actually live inside SIN city and what happens in regards to sin, inside this city goes so much further than gambling. Who do you think really OWNS these casino’s? Their money is from all over the world, elite people you will never see or acknowledge behind the glitz and glamour of the neon lights meant to mesmerize the blind.

    People from all over the world come to Las Vegas…they certainly don’t come over to the U.S. to stay in Idaho now do they? How many bride and grooms get married and where do they go on their honeymoon? LV. Are you kidding me? What a way to descecrate the Lord Jesus..to celebrate a sanctified marriage in Vegas? PUKE!–we are not talking about Elvis chapels Mr. blind man stop with the condecending attitude towards me. It does not matter what you can ‘fathom’ for your eyes are still blind.

    Many believe that the Whore “is a CITY built on seven hills.” If I could think of any whore in reference to a city…I would have to say Las Vegas. Read below, in context of LV.

    “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen!

    She has become a home for demons.

    She is a hideout for every foula spirit,

    a hideout for every foul vulture

    and every foul and dreadful animal.For all the nations have fallen

    because of the wine of her passionate immorality.

    The kings of the world have committed adultery with her.

    Because of her desires for extravagant luxury,

    the merchants of the world have grown rich.”

    “How terrible, how terrible for that great city!

    In a single moment

    all the wealth of the city is gone!”

    They will cry out as they watch the smoke ascend, and they will say, “Where is there another city as great as this?” And they will weep and throw dust on their heads to show their grief. And they will cry out,“How terrible, how terrible for that great city!

    In a single moment it is all gone.”

    HOW? HOW IN A SINGLE MOMENT CAN IT ALL BE GONE?

    Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a huge millstone. He threw it into the ocean and shouted,

    “Just like this, the great city Babylon will be thrown down with violence and will never be found again. Rejoice over her fate, O heaven and people of God and apostles and prophets!

    For at last God has judged her…..

    HOW? Since you lived there…you must know of all the nuclear waste storage there correct? BUT HOW IN A SINGLE MOMENT?? Earthquake! An earthquake of such magnitude that it brings it down…and the nuclear waste keeps anyone from returning…never allowing a rebuilding of a city such as this again.(Look at Japan and the nuclear radiation situation)

    All from every nation know Las Vegas–yup they would cry out and be shocked.

    WHAT HAPPENS IN VEGAS…STAYS IN VEGAS…ummmmm not really…you can’t fool God! wink-wink

  165. Sorry GW77 but I’ll never buy the idea that God wrote the last book of His bible to warn the Christian world that He will destroy a city, any city. Earlier someone made an identical case that Hollywood is Babylon. Others believe it is any number of middle eastern cities and others think it will be a reconstructed city of Babylon. But the fact is it will not be a city at all. As I said, in prophecy a woman always represents a church. The true church is the subject of Revelation 12 and the apostate church(es) are represented by the woman that rides the beast. Remember that the whore of Babylon has written “Mystery Babylon” and that she is the mother of harlots (other apostate churches).
    Mystery Babylon was an ancient pagan religion and it was carried down thru the ages to the Roman Empire where it was merged with early Christianity by emperor Justinian. These pagan practices are still in most modern churches, the catholic church more than any other and this is the “Babylon” that God will destroy before Christ returns to marry His bride – the true church.
    No, His wrath will not be focused on one little city. It will come against all of Christianity everywhere – wherever pagan Babylon can be found. You can’t escape it by simply leaving town.
    Also, I checked into the “Seven Hills of Las Vegas and here is what I discovered:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Seven Hills, Nevada is a small subsection of Henderson, Nevada. Developed as a high-end, mostly gated community, Seven Hills has developed a reputation as “The Beverly Hills of Nevada”.[citation needed] Seven Hills is home to the founder of eBay Pierre Omidyar, Mike Tyson and others.[citation needed] Seven Hills is named after Seven hills of Rome.

    So even Las Vegas leads us back to Rome. The church of Rome is the woman and the beast (kingdom) it rides is the Vatican. What beast do you propose the city of Vegas is riding? It must be America. If so we are all in deep trouble. I guess then Obama is the antichrist. Actually many have claimed so, so you wouldn’t be alone.

    Well, let us know a little more about your interpretation. Maybe a few others will chime in and we can get a rousing discussion going.
    Always keep looking for the truth…

    • Hi James
      You gave me a brilliant idea by denying that it cannot be a city. And I agree. Then I started thinking that normally the clearest explanation is at the end of the story. Rev.17:18 the woman is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. During NT times it was Rome. But which city reigns now and how? How to reign the world. Simply by controlling the money and credit. Wall Street bankers have created today’s economical meltdown and practically every nation has been suffering of it. On the other hand if big investments are wanted the answer is credit. Who creates credit controls the world. If credit is not available you cannot make any big plans. The great city today is New York. Similarly During Jesus’ times Rome was the center. “Whose picture is on the coin…give it to him”. In ancient Babylon existed already banking and credit system and ever since it has been used in all seven empires. The whore is MONEY, MAMMON. Rev.17:16 “And the ten horns upon the beast shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate (laid waste) and naked and shall eat her flesh (steal the value)and burn her with fire.” When Europe started using Euro most countries simply burned their old money with fire and melted coins, also needs fire, because better money came. Germany did not. And ten kings in the coming eighth empire will burn all the money for cashless society to have again a better system. This thinking ends up also so that the mark of the beast will not be used before during the last seven years at the time when these ten kings have obtained power with the beast, Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the covenat for one week with many. In Rev.17:12 And ten horns receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The biggest god to most people today is money, From the Lord’s point of view they go to the whore.
      During millenium no money will be used. As a present you have received, as a present you give away.

      • Still a little bit about seven hills. I doubt that such a translation is used therefore that Rome is expected to be the town and there are no mountains in Rome. The Greek word used is oros and oros is used 65 times and only three times it has been translated as hill. Luke 3:5 is using together mountains and hills. in Greek it is oros and bounos and according to Thayer’s lexicon bounos is smaller that oros. Thus Rev 17:9 reads in KJV the seven heads are the seven mountains. Where are the seven hills, I could not find.

  166. ex satanist explains why Sunday worship is imperative…very interesting…

    • Lindsey
      A former satanist saying that the leader of the satanists saying to leave the adventists alone. HMMM I Thought Satan was going after the saints, maybe they approve of what the adventists are doing. Watch the video again and look at his eyes, very shifty. then watch the video Marianne posted below for me.

  167. Hi Lyndsey,
    This is a great video, thanks.
    I’ve been saying for years here that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast – the mark being obedience to his system of worship and disobedience to the commandments of God.
    I especially appreciated his statement that only seventh day Adventists (which he noted were just a small group – a “remnant”} are immune to being fooled by their deception. We are the only ones who reject the idea of the RFID chip that 99% of modern Christians all believe will be the mark of the beast.
    This video is a great look into the mind-set of satan and how he thinks and works. Once you understand this it changes your whole approach to Prophecy. It doesn’t mean we are able to completely interpret all prophecy correctly (nobody’s perfect) but I do believe it gives us better insight in the direction to look when it comes to getting the big picture.
    I urge everyone who reads this to watch this video and to give it some deep thought and consideration and may the Holy Spirit guide you to the real truth!
    God Bless.

    • :)

      I have observed that it is usually the “least expected” that is most likely the truth….I say “better safe then sorry”. :)

    • hi James

      I am curious. This debate over Sunday vs Saturday.

      What do you say about those who officially worship on neither day, but spend time with God at home every day?

      WHere do they fit in?

  168. Sunday wotship and Sunday as mark of the beast doesn’t fit. Sun has been worshipped a lot also in ancient times but more than billion Muslims worship moongod (shown in their flags and everywhere with part of the moon and a star) with holy day being Friday. Would Christians start to cut off their heads if they refuse to mark themselves with Sunday mark? For them Muhammed brought the last message and their behaviour today in Egypt and Iraq is to kill Christians. No difference whether they are Catholics or Adventists. Betlehem used to be a Christian town but Muslims have expelled most of them.

  169. Seppo brings up an interesting point. To most Christians, Sunday worship as the mark of the beast doesn’t make sense. That is why it is so diabolical. Satan isn’t stupid. He is going to be so clever that almost no-one will believe they have the mark. Everyone assumes that the RFID chip will be the mark, and it would be obvious that you have taken such a device into your body, not to mention you would have to use it every time you bought something. And then there is the assumption that you would have to swear allegiance to Satan when accepting the chip, which would really only be coercion, nothing more.
    The devil doesn’t expect to get any real followers this way, so it would be useless to him. Instead, he will get people to reject God by rejecting His commandment(s). And what better commandment to use than the one most Christians are already breaking – the sabbath. And if you watched the above video, Satan worshippers do so on his day – Sunday. So Satan has two good reasons for using Sunday worship as his mark. You might not be worshipping him directly, but you will be doing it on his day and rejecting the day of our Lord.
    Now that’s clever!
    In fact, it is so clever that even when confronted with this explanation, most devout Christians still won’t believe it.
    Go ahead – tell me that you think I am wrong… you will make Satan very pleased with himself.
    Or as dirty Harry might say, “Go ahead, make his day!” :)

  170. I wonder why using a chip to buy stuff is giving allegiance to Satan?

    • James
      I wonder why you never address the claim that I make, that the mark of the beast will be denying the trinity/divinity of Jesus? As you say, Satan already has many “followers” that deny Jesus’ divinity. Many “Christians” in fact, do not understand why this is an important part of the faith. In fact, by definition, you are not a Christian if you deny that “Jesus is Lord”. How will the Antichrist perform “signs and wonders” to make people worship on sunday? But if a relic of the church shows the blood of Jesus to be fully human, then how many will be swayed by this, even amongst the “elect” leaders of the catholic church and other churches that are trying to rejoin the catholic church. Belief in the divinity of Jesus is just that, a belief and not a work. A belief that is integral to salvation. Denying the divinity of Jesus is lessening the worth of his sacrifice, making it equivalent to the child sacrifices made to Milcom in the Old Testament, Thus it truly is “the unforgivable sin”. It is a form of Baal worship. Remember the blasphemies written on the beast’s heads: Blasphemy by definition is denying God. Remember also references to “babylon the great”, This “mark” ties old babylon to the new Babylon of revalation with this variation of Baal worship.

    • hi James

      While the chip may or may not be the mark, it might be part of “it.” Scripture says the mark is either in the hand or the forehead, which is where the mark is located. So, physically, it does meet this criteria.

      Taking the chip, or some other mark, would also require knowledge of who the beast is, and allegiance, and obedience to it.

      • Marianne, James
        The chip, or whatever the mark is, will not be what condemns, it is what we must do to get the mark.
        For James it is worship on sunday or else! For me it is deny Jesus is Lord or else! which sounds more damning?
        One is a work, one is a tenet of salvation. There is nothing we can do to merit salvation, If worshipping on saturday prevents us from being condemned, then someone who is not a Christian yet denies sunday worship for whatever reason (jehovahs witness for example) will be guranteed salvation even while denying Christs deity. It just makes no logical sense. I by no means condemn someone if they want to worship on the original sabbath, much like the messianic Jews do, But if this is the reason for doing so (mark of the beast) then you need to examine your motives.
        I am not a Christian because of the rewards I get, but because I owe my life to Christ for his sacrifice. In other words I am not motivated by reward or avoidance of punishment, but by repentence; a realization that I am unworthy of receiving these gifts of God, Yet he gives them by his grace!

  171. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    • Judge not, lest Ye be judged. This applies to everything.
      God will judge you however. Go ahead, kill someone, steal a car or two, see if you will be judged for that come judgement day. Guess all Christians are exempt, so fire away. Got to go hold up a liquor store now, so I’ll catch you later…

      (Just trying to make a point…) :)

      • James
        We are not denying the law, nor are we using grace as a license to sin. You however are denying the Word of God.

  172. Marrianne, and all,
    I would like to pull out a video here but unfortunately I have not figured this out yet. It can be found on youtube “wretched tv with todd friel on 7th day adventism.” I think it would benefit the discussion on mark of the beast.

  173. So Dru, let me get this straight. You believe a New World Order dictator will soon come to power and totally revamp the world’s monetary system, then do away with cash checks and credit cards, including PayPal etc., and require that 8-9 billion people get chips implanted in them, and on top of all that, everyone will have to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ as well.
    Well that would be fine for most of the world’s population such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindu’s, but it would basically wipe Christianity off the map. I admit, this would be mind-blowingly simple to figure out. Especially since virtually every Christian alive expects this to be the mark of the beast. You have to believe that every true believer would refuse the mark, or simply lie when taking the oath to reject Jesus or whatever. I wonder if they will make us swear on a bible? In any case I don’t think Satan will be so blatantly obvious, but that’s just my logical mind working. Of course if you are a rapturist, you are not expecting to be around for the mark – all Christians will have been whisked away to heaven. With no Christians left, it will be a hollow victory for Satan. He’s already got the rest of them.
    So time will tell on all that. I guess we don’t really need the bible to warn us about the mark. It’s going to be a no-brainer for all of us Christians.
    But here is a hypothetical for you.
    Suppose in 2013 president Palin institutes an anti-terrorism bill that requires an implanted ID chip for all Americans. Like the proposed US ID card only implanted to prevent tampering. So what will you do? Can’t be the mark of the beast – no allegiance to Satan. No New World Order, only for Americans, not the planet. What would you do? As long as you remain faithful to Christ, you are OK, right? Especially if you receive the chip in the Left hand rather than the right, no? Just wondering if prophecy is like horseshoes and hand grenades – close is good enough.
    Bless…

    • James
      I did not know that the adventists cheapened Jesus sacrifice on the cross. In that respect you already have the mark of the beast upon you. Were you coerced into being an adventist? or did you choose to be one? What you are believing in is a heracy, a corruption of the Word of God. In that respect I rebuke you for such belief. You really should consider repenting, Or as you like to say, do you feel lucky?
      You see James, Satan likes to deceive people, people who think they are doing what is right. That is a victory for satan, when he can deceive “the very Elect”. You are among the “elect” in your own mind, but it is you who are deceived by satan, He is claiming you as one of his victories. As you say, Satan is not so blatantly obvious, he has deceived you into believing his lie. Why do you think the satanist in the video Lindsey posted above said that the leader of the satanists said to leave the adventists alone? Because they cannot be deceived, or because they are deceived already. You are saying that Jesus was not God By saying that his sacrifice on the cross was not enough to cover all sin.
      As I have said previously, I do not know for certain what the actual mark of the beast will be, but I do know it will not be a work.
      Titus 3:9-11 says:
      “But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
      10. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
      11. Knowing that such aperson is warped and sinful; he is self condemned.”
      In this respect, I am warning you once, to repent of your ways now while you still can. Stop looking for yourself and your actions to save you, for they cannot, Only the blood of Jesus can cover all sin including the pride that does not allow you to see the error of your ways.
      May God reveal his love to you so that you can no longer deny his divine sacrifice. (A Blessing)

      • Hey Dru,

        I mean no disrespect in what I am about to say, but it is needful at this point. Below is a comment you made to Gregg under a different post;

        Gregg
        “Thank you for that site. I am not one to always look into the original text, but rather tend to allow the Spirit to lead me as i read the Bible.
        It always amazes me when I see these difference in linguistics, that the Spirit leads us to discover when we allow the Spirit to do its work.
        In other words, Not having any knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek myself, the Spirit leads me to the same distinctions as were made in the original text.”

        While all of us are discussing (might I say in a very strong manner) our views and beliefs of what scripture says, all the while, making pretty definite statements about various things, we, by in large, stay away from judging each other’s personal salvation.

        You suggested, on a different post, to have a “mission”, to find areas where we all agree on things and kind of curb the heated debate.

        Like I said before, heated debate is not neccessarily a bad thing. It implies passion and intensity. There is nothing wrong with that.

        But,your “Judgement” of James is ill advised. While we all make definitive remarks about the subjects we are talking about, we endeavour to stay away from personal attacks. I have made that error before and had to humble myself before that person. I had clearly over stepped a line that I shouldn’t have.

        In your statement above you make the comment that you are basically lead by the spirit and that you understand what the Bible pretty much means without study of the original language (just a paraphrase), given many of the things that you say, and your latest “warning” to James, your being lead by the spirit has become more like being lead by the seat of your pants. You will loose a lot of crediblility if you pursue this direction. Be careful and not get into your head that this is just persection for the place that the spirit has put you in. You are clearly wrong here and need to clear the air with James.

        I am being very direct here, but mean no disrepspect. I hope and pray for you only the best.

        Be Blessed in the Messiah!!!!

        • Al
          I thank you for the above statement. I Know my statements I made to James were harsh, to say the least. My point in doing the “mission” was to show that the blood of Christ covers all sins. That Jesus had to be divine in order for the sacrifice to be sufficient. I rebuked the message of James and his seventh Day adventists that deny the trinity/divinity of Christ thereby cheapening the sacrifice of Christ. Until I saw the video which I requested that Marianne put above for me, I did not realize that the Adventists had done this.
          I would do the same with Mormons, jehovahs witnesses, muslims, etc. In fact, any “religion” that denies the trinity is by definition a cult.
          The fact that James and other Adventists tend to “dodge” the issue bothers me.
          Perhaps my statement could have been said in a gentler way, and for that I am sorry, But his previous answer was equally as abrasive.
          There is one thing that I do stand by, You are not saved if you do not believe Jesus is LORD. He was LORD at creation, He was LORD to the Jews, He Was LORD at the cross, and he IS LORD today. Jesus was never a man glorified to Godhood. If you accept the depravity of man (repentence) you will realize that this is impossible. All men are condemned already to death. It is God’s grace that saves, not man’s work. Every Cult has a problem with the divinity, Adventists are no different, I do not care how Obedient they are to the law. We all have sinned.

          As for the comment about language I made to gregg, I was merely stating a point of praise, that though I am ignorant of the subtelties of ancient languages, the spirit still Guides us to proper understanding. (a miracle Perhaps)

          When I read James’ response above, I went and prayed for guidance from the Lord, He then led me to read those verses in Titus, a book which I usually flip past. When the spirit leads a person, to those in the world, it seems like we are flying by the seat of our pants. John 3:8 says ” The wind blows where it wishes, and you here its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes, SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

          As I have said before, I do not condemn someone for worshipping the lord on th seventh day, that is not the issue here. But denying the divinity of Jesus I do condemn. At least the muslims will argue this point out in the open rather than trying to hide that part of their beliefs. If you deny this Fact of salvation, the whole bible becomes merely another book of rules and rulers, and that is what satan wants.
          I believe in a living faith, in a loving God, that by his one sacrifice has forgiven all the sins of those that receive his gift. We CANNOT earn that gift. As I have said previously, the Holy Spirit does not lead us to break the law of Moses, but it leads us to obey the law with a pure heart. To me this is not flying by the seat of my pants, but being led by the Spirit.

  174. The RFID chip has to be tested at first somewhere and it looks like America will be the testing ground. It is not necessarily the mark of the beast in the beginning but as I have understood the target is to put into the chip mind control features and that makes it very dangerous. “You can loose your mind”

  175. Regarding Sabbath (Shabbat) “Shabbat frees us from our weekday concerns, from our deadlines and schedules and commitments. During the week, we are slaves to our jobs, to our creditors, to our need to provide for ourselves; on Shabbat, we are freed from these concerns, much as our ancestors were freed from slavery in Egypt. ”

    “Shabbat candles are lit and a blessing is recited no later than eighteen minutes before sunset. This ritual, performed by the woman of the house, officially marks the beginning of Shabbat. Two candles are lit, representing the two commandments: zakhor (remember) and shamor (observe), discussed above.

    http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

    My thoughts:

    Observing the Sabbath (Fri eve at sunset to Sat eve at sunset-NOT SUNDAY) has nothing to do with salvation, period.

    However,the sabbath does have everything to do with obedience to our Heavenly Father!

    And NOTHING TO DO with WORK; it is freedom-freedom FROM work!

    And also Mark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    *As Christians, we are instructed to observe the sabbath as the Jews were and on the correct sabbath day!

    We are not “exempt” from this just because we were not “born” jewish. By being “born again” by believing upon a JEWISH MESSIAH then we should also adopt our Saviour’s instructions.

    *Notice, “therefore, the Son of Man (Messiah) is Lord ALSO of the sabbath. Jesus/Yeshua did NOT do away with the Sabbath day/Shabbat. Yeshua always observed the Sabbath as well. He just emphasized and demonstrated the purpose of Sabbath-which is FREEDOM.

    And another thought is this, those who are continue to worship on Sunday are taken out of Freedom and placed right back into Slavery. Again, the whole purpose of Shabbat is FREEDOM. By observing Shabbat on the wrong day, the day that was assigned by the Romans-NOT G-D-indirectly enslaves even christians to a “rule set by men” and NOT by G-d.

    ****G-d only sanctified the TRUE SABBATH, not SUNday.****

    This is my understanding and after learning when the true sabbath was, I was FREE to choose this day that the Lord chose and sanctified!!

    Exodus 20:11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE IT HOLY.

    For six days you may perform melachah, but the seventh day is a complete Sabbath, holy to the L-RD … it is an eternal sign that in six days, the L-RD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. -Exodus 31:15-17

    Deuteronomy 5:12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
    http://bible.cc/mark/2-27.htm

  176. Matthew 12:1-8
    1.”At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain to eat.
    2. But when the pharisees saw it they said to him,’look, your doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath.’
    3. He said to them; ‘Have you not read what David did when he was hungry and those who were around him:
    4. How he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Prescense, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
    5. Or have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are guiltless?
    6. I tell you, SOMETHING GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE IS HERE.
    7. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice’, you would not have condemned the guiltless(DISCIPLES).
    8. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.'”

    1 Peter 2:5,9,10
    5. “You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, To be a HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    9. But you are a chosen race, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people for His own possesion, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
    10. Once you were not a people, But now you are GOD’S people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”

    I just thought I would throw this in the mix for those who insist on others worshipping on the sabbath. Hopefully you will make the connection I made. God bless.

  177. Yo Dru,
    First of all, I am not a member of the 7th day Adventist church nor have I ever read any of the writings of Ellen White. I am a member of the Philadelphia Church of God which was established out of the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert Armstrong independently of the 7th-day church. It honors the true sabbath as well as the Jewish festivals not yet fulfilled by Jesus and rejects all pagan practices and holidays such as Christmas and Easter etc.
    I have however, listened to many 7th day ministers and teachers on prophecy and biblical matters and I have never heard anything preached like your YouTube video preacher was mentioning. They all believe we are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross as the true son of God, exactly as you believe. They believe we are saved by grace alone and works are not necessary – a big fallacy of the catholic church which is the woman who sits on 7 hills. They in no way deny the divinity of Christ so your YouTube blowhard is making false accusations and generalizations about a church he obviously knows nothing about – and neither do you. There is NOTHING taught by the 7th day Adventists that is not taken directly from the bible. They believe the bible interprets itself and there is no need for church committees to add to or subtract from God’s word. Did you know that the “Trinity” was debated by the Catholic church for over 200 years before it came up with it’s current theory? Oh sure, now everybody is on board with it, but there is no definition of it in the bible, only verses that may hint at it. Like much of scripture, it can be defined any number of ways, and was considered a mystery for over 1000 years. Now all of a sudden, people are convinced that if they don’t believe the Catholic church’s papal declaration of it, that they will have the mark of the beast. Of course, none of it fits with prophecy. Please show me in the NT where Jesus tells us we must worship the trinity or we are not saved. We are to worship the father through His son Jesus Christ. The mystery of the trinity will be revealed when He returns. To think that having to unravel that mystery in order to reveal the mark of the beast is insane. We could argue it here for another 200 years. But we all know what day the true sabbath is. That one is clear and simple. The only question is, does God still care about it? Should we care about it? I say yes. Most say No. Some say I don’t know. (Did you just sing that?
    Anyway, as Lyndsey said above, keeping the sabbath is a belief, not a work. Obeying the commandments is not works, it is obeying a loving God. the mark of the beast will be a test, on that we can agree. But who will be doing the testing? Satan or God?
    If it is God, then what will the test be? Have you checked into His previous tests? Doesn’t He always have dual fulfillments? So the mark of the beast must have already happened sometime in the past, right? Just check the Book of Revelation:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

    Well from this it is perfectly clear that there were “fellowservants” who were killed for refusing the same mark from the same beast once before. And what was that mark? Well, it says they were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. So what is “The word of God?” Is is the trinity?
    Well, I must assume these people were the true church. They were being persecuted by Satan even back then. See what Revelation 12 says about the true church (the woman in pure white) :
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Oh look! The true church keeps the commandments (word) of God. Of course they also have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so they are Christians, not Jews.

    Now what about the modern saints? :
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Oh wow! Here it is again. Those with the mark are tormented, but the true saints keep the commandments! Golly, I guess God still keeps tabs on our sins.

    In case you still don’t believe that, check out Revelation 9:
    In regards to the 6th trumpet:
    Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Oh crap – looks like you may have to repent of your sins after all. Thought you were going to be guiltless because there is no more law? Think again. And note this – it is quoting commandments and it calls them works of the hands. Remember the mark in the hand (works) or forehead (thoughts)? NOT literally in your hand. Not a real mark or chip or whatever. Check your concordance for mark. Mine simply says “seal.” Remember how God will seal the 144,000? They are sealed in the forehead (mind) with the word of God. These words include His commandments. (Read Exodus for more on the commandments). If we are sealed with the word of God we will avoid the seal (mark) of the beast.

    Is any of this sinking in yet. The hints are everywhere. Why do you think I believe this stuff? Because someone on TV told me to believe it? I’ve tried to interpret Revelation your way – for years, believe me. Too many pieces didn’t fit. The schematic didn’t work. Go ahead, wire up your interpretation your way and see what happens. Too many loose wires. As we say in the engineering game – “Careful when you power up that baby – the damn thing’s liable to blow up in your face.”

    So as I always say…
    Good luck with that!

    • James
      As always James, you ignore what you want to about what I say.
      First of all, you say you believe in the divinity of Christ, then you proceed to show that for two hundred years this was debated in the early church.Hmm I wonder how many people were persecuted because they believed in the trinity? You say the bible is vague with regard to its teaching on the trinity, I say the entire book of John was written to prove that Jesus was God as well as all the Pauline epistles. In fact, it is for these claims, that the Jewish people Killed Jesus, Persecuted the disciples, martyred Stephen etc. Hmmm the mark of the beast as you say. How many Christians have been killed by muslims throughout history for believing in the divinity of Christ. etc.
      I know that there were Christians that were killed by the catholic church for worshipping on saturday, as there were christians that were persecuted for baptism by immersion, Yet i do not claim that baptism by sprinkling is the mark of the beast. Being a baptist myself, shouln’t I be a proponent of this? Why is it that so many cults do not believe in the trinity/ divinity of Jesus?
      Acts 16:31 “And they said believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
      John 20:31 “But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his NAME.”
      John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
      John 8:58 “Jesus said to them, ‘truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM (Yahweh)’ 59. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple”
      You asked me for verses that show the divinity of Jesus and that we must believe for salvation, I gave you four, do you want more?
      Yes the trinity as a word is not in the bible, it is a theological concept come up at a later date, which is proved by the words of Jesus himself. Similar to the concept of Imputation. It is proved without a doubt in scriptures. The fact that you want proof for this shows me that you do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, and that you believe he was an exalted man.?
      Now to the part about obeying the law. You say I do not believe in the commandments. on the contrary I do. this is where you misrepresent what I am saying. I believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us to obey the commandments with a pure heart. The holy Spirit does not lead us to sin. But the work of the Holy Spirit is often blocked by us because we think we can do it better. That somehow our asceticism will justify our obedience to the law. this is putting our work ahead of God’s work in us by his grace. this is akin to setting ourselves up on a throne that should only be occupied by God. This is Blasphemy, Idolotry.
      When you quote revalation 12:17 you stress the ones who obey the commandments of God, and you ignore the part about “testimony of Jesus”. What is the testimony of Jesus, but the Divinity? Jesus Called himself the I AM in the verse I mentioned above. I AM is the literal translation of Yahweh. This is the testimony that Jesus made of himself. I Hold to the commandments of God because of the testimony of Jesus, and being led by the Holy Spirit. We are to be a “Holy Priesthood”, which means so long as we are doing the Lords work, the laws of the sabbath do not apply, and the Holy Spirit has not led me to obey them. This does not mean that I will never be led to obey that law, But as for now I believe, as with the priests of the Old Testament, we are held guiltless for this. For i believe that something “greater than the temple is here”. AKA God with us. This is the testimony of Christ as well.!
      You do this again in quoting Revalation 14:12 you focus on the keeping of the commandments And O wow here it is again, “their faith in Jesus”.! Why is it that you ignore the second part of these verses? I gave you my reason, from the word of God, why I do not hold to the sabbath commandment, now why is it that you deny the testimony of Jesus?
      As I said in our previous discussions, repentence is the remembering of our salvation, of our unworthiness to save our selves, and of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross which covered our sins (all of them), when we are not doing God’s will, we have to be reminded of the sacrifice say we are sorry, and obey his will. In the Old Testament, repentence was about tearing off ones clothes, and lying face down on the ground for long periods of time to show that our heart was repentent, for us as Christians under the new covenent, repentence is remembering why all our sins are covered. This shows that our heart has been changed already.
      Are you saying we should tear off our clothes and repent or are you resting in the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross covers all our sins. This to me is holding to the testimony of Jesus, which you are so quick to discredit, this is faith in Jesus not in man’s works, This is loving the Lord with all our hearts and not the Idolotry you are holding to.
      You see, James, you sit there and put yourself on a pedestal in boasting about your works, and berate my belief in the testimony of Jesus. The fact that I choose to be led By the Holy Spirit, and not by my own understanding and authority may be mocked by you, But I know God Gave me the Holy Spirit as a gift of his grace, to comfort us on this walk we are taking in this life. I would rather be led by the spirit than by my own understandings, for my own understanding perverts the Gospel as it has done for you. See for you, I am a “stone of stumbling and a rock of offence” but to God I am a living stone “chosen and precious”, And whoever “believes in Him(Jesus) will not be put to shame.” ” So the Honor is for you who believe”

  178. Some thoughts of my thinking how three can be one and one can be three.
    John 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. Jesus created everything
    Jehovah tells:
    Isa 48:13
    Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.
    Isa 51:5
    My righteousness [is] near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
    Isa 59:16
    And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
    Similarly, like Jesus is Jehovah’s arm people in Christ are members of Christ’s body and thus one in Christ and we all will speak in the future in one spirit but with many personalities like Jesus said about Father: John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    1Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body – though many – are one body, so too is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.3 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    Thus being in Christ we are one with him and also one in Jehovah who is head of everything and then the prophecy given in the law will be fulfilled: John 10:34
    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

  179. Hi Dru,
    Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Like all true Christians I believe that Jesus is, was and always has been divine. Is He a separate being from the father or are they the same – that is the mystery. When Jesus walked the earth he was a man. He has to eat, he bled and he died. Did the father die too? Or did Jesus never die because he was already God with eternal life? The whole thing defies logic. That is why I call it a mystery. At the end of the millennium we will all become sons of God – we will be part of His family and Christ will be our brother. That is another mystery. It is beyond our understanding right now. It is like trying to prove how God parted the Red Sea and performed all the other miracles. They are a mystery for now. You may think you have those answers but it is pure arrogance.
    I prefer to humble myself and just let God do his work.
    And speaking of that, you said “We are to be a “Holy Priesthood”, which means so long as we are doing the Lords work, the laws of the sabbath do not apply, and the Holy Spirit has not led me to obey them”
    So we are supposed to do the Lord’s work after all then, right? But doing His work does not include obeying His laws? That makes no sense to me.
    As the scripture says, you must obey the commandments AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. BOTH must be done. Keep the commandments but reject Christ – you will have the mark. Accept Jesus but reject His father’s laws – you’ve got the mark.
    As many of us have been telling you, following the law is not working. God expects you to do both. Sure, you will receive eternal life just for believing, if that’s all you want. And if you get to the tribulation you will survive the plagues (although it says you will wish you were dead during the process) and make it into the millennial kingdom, but you will be the “least” in that kingdom.
    It’s up to you. You say we should obey God’s will, yet you don’t know what His will is. His will is simply to obey His commandments which He personally wrote in stone for all time.
    “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” Jesus said this prayer, to His (our) father, who art in heaven and followed His will while here on earth as an example to the rest of us.
    Will you follow Christ or just use Him as a tool for eternal life?
    As for the Baptists, I’m not sure what they believe in particular, it seems like there is a diverse set of beliefs amongst the faithful, but I can tell you one thing – any church that observes the sabbath on Sunday, or celebrates Christmas, Easter, lent etc, or uses any practices based on babylonian-roman paganism (Mystery Babylon) such as the use of vestal virgins (nuns) prayer beads (rosary), holy water,infant baptism, confession, graven images, statues, wedding rings, pagan crosses and symbols and dozens of others I could mention, are APOSTATE. They are the Babylon that will be destroyed before Christ returns to marry the true church. They are the whore of Babylon and her harlot daughter churches. God will not cut us Christians any slack. Remember that Christ rebuked all but one of the churches in Revelation 3. That was a preview of Revelation 17. Do you think before He returns He will rebuke the Muslims? Many do. They fear their own shortcomings and wish it away to someone else. God has never punished anyone other than His own people except in war. Oh, they’re gonna get theirs, that’s for sure. That will be the war of Gog and perhaps again at Armageddon, but the woman of this blog is His church. Christianity will be judged. That is the message of Revelation. The temple will be cleansed.
    How can there be a judgement without the law? There would be no reference point. If you believe there is only one law – “Jesus Is Lord” then there won’t be much sense in any judgement of Babylon. We may as well just sit back and wait for the rapture. Maybe it will happen tomorrow. Or maybe the next day. In any case our faith alone will protect us from the mark. Heck, we won’t even be here so why sweat it. That’s a very simple and hopeful solution. Maybe that’s why it is so popular nowadays.
    Too bad it’s only wishful thinking.
    I look forward to your rebuttal. :)

  180. James
    It is good to hear that you believe in the trinity/divinity of Christ. Even the Demons believe and shudder. Now take the next step and live by faith. “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the OLD WAY of the written code.” Rom 7:6 The works of faith is what we will be Judged by, AKA the “Fruit of the Spirit”.

    Take the time to read Roman’s with an open mind, and you will understand my distinction here.
    May God reveal the Truth as you read and free you from the bondage you have placed yourself under. A blessing (perhaps)

  181. revelations mentions the fiery red dragon who gives power to the beast , the fiery red dragon must surely be china ,

    • hi Chris

      I guess on a political level, that could be true of China, seeing how it is controlling the world money system now, and would align with the antichrist. On the spiritual level, one would say the dragon is Satan.

  182. It’s been awhile. I wonder if this gets posted.
    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/christian-socialists/

  183. Prendendo in considerazione la teoria che “Babilonia la Grande” fosse Gerusalemme ho esaminato alcune scritture di Ezechiele 16 e molte coincidevano con essa ,ma una in particolare ha sorto un dubbio a questa mia covinzione :
    Parlando di Gerusalemme vi viene scritto “di lei vi sarà detto”tale è la madre,tale è la figlia” …ora Gerusalemme ha delle sorelle prostitute ,tutte provengono da una stessa madre ,ossia “la madre di tutte le prostitute” ,ma chi è questa “madre” ? viene precisato che la madre della Gerusalemme terrena è un’Hittea! Questo mi ha incuriosito parecchio e facendo delle ricerche sono arrivata a scoprire che la terra degli ittiti era Antolia ossia l’attuale Istambul…capitale dell’Impero romano conosciuta anche come la “Grande Città” e che questo popolo era nominato per la sua lavorazione della porpore e scarlatto…
    Ora,prendendo in considerazione che gli Ittiti si dichiaravano”servi degli dei”,possiamo comprendere quanto grande sia stato il loro adulterio agli occhi di Dio,e gli ebrei ne furono influenzati in questoe !
    In Apocalisse Giovanni ,guardando la Grande meretrice,si meravigliò di tanta meraviglia…Gerusalemme sarà anche bella ma non al punto da far meravigliare l’apostolo Paolo come se vedesse qualcosa di unico ai suoi tempi …e sfido chiunque a non lasciarsi abbagliare dalla bellezza di Istambul! (La stessa cosa penserei del Vaticano ,maestoso ma non meraviglioso) Se prendiamo come teoria gli Stati Uniti ,le sue coincidenze mi sembrerebbero ovvie da non poter risultare un gran “MISTERO”!!!
    Ora non voglio affermare nulla dal moento che le mie ricerche sono ancora in atto,ma non scordiamoci che Costantinopoli,per molto tempo,ha controllato le rotte fra Asia ed Europa,così come il passaggio dal Mar Mediterraneo al Mar Nero ,diventando un ottimo punto di commercio marittimo per la quale molti commercianti navali si sono arricchiti e molte nazioni hanno trattato con lei ed è una città che ha ospitato una moltitudine di popoli,lingue e nazioni …tutt’oggi risulta una gran città turistica ! ciao ciao

    • Translation:

      Taking into account the theory that “Babylon the Great” was Jerusalem, I examined some of the writings of Ezekiel 16 and many coincide with it, but one in particular has built a doubt in my covinzione:

      Speaking of Jerusalem there is written “you will be told of her” this is the mother, so is her daughter “… now Jerusalem sisters prostitutes, all from the same mother, ie the” mother of all prostitutes, ” But who is this “mother”? is clear that the mother of the earthly Jerusalem is un’Hittea! This intrigued me a lot and doing research I came to discover that the earth was the Hittites Antoliva that the current capital of Istanbul …

      Roman Empire also known as the “Big City” and that this people was named for its purple and scarlet processing …

      Now, taking into consideration that the Hittites called themselves “servants of the gods”, we can understand how great was their adultery in the eyes of God, and Jews were influenced questoe it!

      In Revelation John, watching the Great Whore, he was amazed at such great … Jerusalem will be good too but not to the point of the Apostle Paul as a surprise if he saw something unique in his time … and I defy anyone not to be dazzled by the beauty of Istanbul! (The same thing I would think the Vatican’s majestic but not wonderful) If we take the U.S. as a theory, its connections seem obvious to me that it can not be a great “Mystery”!

      Now I do not want to say anything since moento that my research is still underway, but let’s not forget that Constantinople, for a long time, has controlled the routes between Asia and Europe, as well as the passage from the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea, becoming an excellent maritime trade for which many traders have become rich naval and many nations have treated her and it’s a city that has hosted a multitude of peoples, languages ​​and nations … today is a great tourist city! hello hello

  184. this article is false. notice how it says the woman is clothed in purple and scarlet and decked in gold and precious stones and pearls. islam nor any other religion that is near any other city that is on 7 hills is clothed in such a way, except for the roman catholic church. further, present in the roman catholic church are the same occult symbols that were around in ancient babylon when the mystery religion started under nimrod and semiramis. so yes the city is rome, and the woman is the roman catholic church. do not be deceived people, this website is full of false doctrine.

    • hi sam

      I appreciate your zeal for your faith. This website offers different views, which can be debated. The idea is to find the truth through discussion.

      I had personally put this post here because I considered the catholic church a dead church, and islam is presently more a threat to the world and true believers than the catholic church, which has been losing followers over time.

      this website has about 550 posts, on all sorts of subjects, so please do not write this site off too quickly.

      There are posts that also give reasons to support the “woman is rome” position, like this one:

      http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/is-the-beast-rome/

      So it tries to keep a balance of opposing views.

      Here is an alternate view:

      http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/leopard-4th-beast/

      as far as the described clothing for the woman, I consider them purely symbolic, but I am sure some of the symbolism is based on reality…..they could be considered roman or babylonian….

      I want people who come here to think for themselves, and not just go by what others has taught them. Getting into discussions debating various viewpoints helps this thinking process.

      God bless you for your devotion to Jesus and the truth.

  185. JERUSALEM ISRAEL AND JEWRY ARE THE WHORE.

    We know this as the Bible tells us (rev 11:8) its WHERE Christ was Crucified.

    Jerusalem also rests on 7 HIlls.

    Google: Jerusalem Whore of Babylon

  186. So God is going to destroy Israel and Jerusalem and all the Jews before He returns to rule the world from a city that is essentially destroyed and gone? Sounds crazy to me. I thought God loves Jerusalem, and the Jews are His chosen people. Seems unnecessary and over the top.
    Plus Israel and Judaism doesn’t match up with the description of the whore.
    And what kingdoms are the two beasts of Revelation? And who will the false prophet be – a rabbi?
    The Book of Revelation is a Christian thing. Its not for the Jews or the Muslims. Its for you and me. It tells us what will happen to God’s people before He returns to marry the true church. It is about the cleansing that will take place. Everything else is peripheral and irrelevant. Sure, stuff will happen. But this book is not about that stuff.
    That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

  187. please can someone try to read revelations 17:18. The adultrous woman is simply USA – the one country where people have the most diverse ideas of God and christianity (which ofcourse leads to blasphemy), where pornography became popular and highly recognized. Even american teens have sex at their young age and their parents seem to do just about nothing about it. The home of serial killers and all sorts of cults. It can only be USA.

    • hi good guy

      true, that description fits America, and every other sinful nation in the world

      Do you know a country that is without sin?

    • Hi Good Guy,
      The thing you must remember is that a woman in prophecy always represents a church – either true or apostate. In Revelation the woman in white is the true church and obviously the whore dressed in scarlet is an apostate church. The Book of Revelation is all about the second coming and the marriage of Jesus to the true church. He will destroy the false church (on the day of atonement most likely) before His marriage.
      His millennium church will probably not look much like any modern Christian church – it will probably look like the church at
      Philadelphia (See rev 3) as ministered to by the apostles.
      In any case, God will not be destroying any countries. Why would He?
      Like Marianne said, all countries are sinners so to be fair He would have to destroy all of them. And what about countries like China and India who are totally anti-christian? Why pick on America who has more true believers than anywhere else?
      No, it is not about countries, but churches – including yours. The question you must ask is – is your church wearing white or is it stained with scarlet?
      Don’t expect to just sit back and watch God destroy any country while you skate thru the tribulation. You will be tested for your faith.
      Ask not for whom the bell tolls – it tolls for thee.

  188. Hi Marianne and James Giordano

    In responce to your comments, i would like to quote revelations 17:18

    ‘And the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reighneth over the kings of the earth.’

    I would also like to draw two conclusions from this particular verse.

    – The first is that the bible does not specifically say that a woman must be the convenctional sign for a church in any vision. As a mater of fact, that passage was actually the interpretation of the vision by an angel of God to john and it states that the woman is a CITY … and not a church. (Note that then, a typical city could be as large as a regular country as at now).

    – The second thing i would like to say is that there can be only one country that fits the description. That country, according to the words of the angel, has to be THE most powerful country in the world. There’s only one most powerful country in the world and that is America. Besides, it also has to have a lot of blasphemy and fornication in it, and that is still a characteristic property of America.

    So to James, the woman is not a church this time, and to Marianne, pardorn my earlier presentation … but its not really about a country’s sin but about the revelation of the mystery of the beast by the angel to John.

  189. good guy,
    The mention of the great city is a hint as to the church of the whore. It also says that the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. The woman (church) is headquartered in the city of 7 hills – the city that reigneth over the kings of the earth. In Johns time, Rome was that city, and the Roman Catholic Church is the woman.
    The US has never reigned over other countries and it does not sit on seven hills. And I’m not buying the idea that a city could also mean a nation. Except perhaps for the Roman Empire.

    As for the US being blasphemous, that makes no sense. The US constitution allows total freedom of religion. It does not take sides. There are some churches in the US that are blasphemous, and some people, but NOT the government. Only a church can be blasphemous unless the country is a religious kingdom. We are not. Your blasphemous reference can be applied to the Roman Catholic Church which is richer then any nation on earth. The US is in debt so far it may never get out of it. Many people are out of work. And our military is so overtaxed we have little power over other nations. And we don’t have the will to use it.
    By the second coming, China will be the richest and most powerful nation on earth, and since they deny Christ you could call them blasphemous as well.
    Here are some references to the Prophecy Code in regards to a woman:
    Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
    Woman, Impure or Corrupt = Apostate Church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4
    There are dozens of other coded words that the bible uses to decode prophecy. Once you learn these codes you can understand the Book of Revelation much easier.
    Here is a link to part of Revelation with the coded words inserted in the text. Read it with an open mind and see if it makes more sense:

    But if you still think the woman is the US, then who is the beast that it rides? What is the meaning of 666 in this regards and why will the world follow the beast that the US is riding? You must get all of rev 13/17/18 to fit this theory, not just one or two verses. So please fill us in on some more details. Maybe you can change some minds here. :)

  190. Hi James
    I guess the problem is that we don’t seem to read the bible the same way. I like taking extreeme care to make sure that any conclusion i make can be traced back to the bible. So all i need you to do is to tell me the passage(s) of the bible that states that the mention of the great city is a hint as to the church of the whore so that i can accept that idea. Also when i said the US was blasphemous, I didn’t mean everyone in the US was blasphemous. I ment many people in the US, both inside and outside the churches. This is quite obvious since the US constitution actually allows freedom of religion (and i don’t mean to say that it is a bad move. I’m just trying to convince you more, in case you are not an american). As for the beast that the whore rides, the meaning of 666, and the other signs, i’m not yet clear on what they mean (just me taking extreeme care). That’s what actually led me to this sight. When I get more understanding of these things, i’ll let you know. :)

    • Hi Good Guy,

      Welcome to the site.

      I just thought that I’d let you know, that many of the participants here possess conflicting view points regarding a variety of topics.
      With that, due to the nature of these discussions, the debates can sometimes become quite passionate. However don’t let that intimidate you whatsoever. If you believe that you have an understanding of a biblical truth, and can support that truth with scripture, then express it.

      I happen to like James, he is intelligent, witty, sarcastic, and at times condescending, (we are two peas in a pod), yet at the same time, we happen to be polar opposites in respects to our theology. He and I have gone back and forth on many topics. We will attack each others beliefs, yet we won’t attack each other, (though I expect that we have both restrained ourselves at times). :-)

      I believe that as the children of God through the blood sacrifice of Yeshua our Savior, we all possess a certain amount of truth.
      And the more time that you spend in the word, the more that one hopes that this truth will be revealed to us. However there is that paradox of the more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually know? (The limited human mind attempting to comprehend the infinite.) Nonetheless, we try here.

      Any way’s, my point is that if you happen to disagree with someone, to not be hesitant in challenging any given statement that they make.
      For example, if I happened to be you here, and wished to engage James in “another” discussion regarding some of the specifics that he has stated above, I just might perhaps, throw out “Isaiah 13:8 where in prophecy the word woman does not refer to a church.” (Neither would Isaiah 26:17., Isaiah 45:10 etc.) I would perhaps suggest that the word “woman” when utilized in prophecy would have to be understood correctly, by the context as to how it is placed within the surrounding text and narrative, (rather than simply jumping to a preconceived conclusion that it is representative to that of the church).

      But hey….. That’s just me. lol.

  191. Well said Marianne.
    Were are here to teach and to learn so we must all put forward our interpretations and let the reader decide what to believe.

    That said, I decided to check out the passages you mentioned in Isaiah, and here they are:

    Isa 13:8
    And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.

    Isa 26:17
    Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

    Isa 45:10
    Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

    While you are right that these do not refer to a woman, but they also do not refer to Israel or America. In fact, the first two verses are simply metaphors for pain. Jesus used the same type of metaphor in some of His prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (which many believe refers to future events as well).
    So a woman in travail is not even a woman, it just means pain.
    So we can toss these two out as examples of women in prophecy.

    The last one simply asks the reader who has begotten them, obviously referring to their mother, so it is simply another turn of phrase, not a biblical symbol for something else.

    So sometimes a woman is just a woman, but these cases are obvious. But I still contend that when used as a prophetic symbol, it refers to a church, including the bride of Christ. No one believes that Christ will marry a country and exclude the rest of the world. It is obviously His church. But if you believe that in the Book of Revelation a woman can be Israel, then the U.S., then the true church you open the door for an infinite number of interpretations. I believe God is consistent and steadfast. He is not the author of confusion. I guess it’s my engineering background, but I can’t imagine God writing such a hodgepodge of symbolism.
    But that’s just me.
    But as I said, I’m always glad to listen to any theory out there. If there is anything that is simpler and makes more sense I am glad to consider it.
    After all, isn’t that what we’re all here for?
    Bless…

  192. I don’t really understand what you are saying James, i kinda think you are starting to agree with the statement that woman could mean any thing at different times … however i’m just going to add a little warning. I also have an engineering background, and i’ve come to the realization that intuition is a useful tool for solving problems, but we should always be carefull not to accept intuitive reasoning as a substitute for logical reasoning. We can be guided by our intuitions but we should only make conclusions based on logic. Nothing is obvious until you can prove it. Its not enough for you to say something like ‘The last one simply asks the reader who has begotten them, obviously referring to their mother’ without telling us why, (and i’m not saying you are right or wrong). If you think that the woman is a church, use the bible to give a direct proof. Don’t expect anyone to agree with your intuitions, no matter how right it feels to you. As for me, the revelations is a mystery, but i’m ok with that, afterall, there are many places in revelation where you will find things like ‘… I will tell you the mystery…’, ‘Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding …’ (revelations 13:18) and it’s impossible for everyone to have this understanding. The revelations was ment to be a mystery known only to the wise. That’s why so many people still accept the mark of the beast at the end. There is an infinite number of interpretation of the revelations, but only one of them is true and we would never find that one true interpretation if we are not carefull with intuitions and keep an open mind. Thanks for your support alienated (at least that’s what i think you are trying to do)

    The interpretations of some of the prophesies are found in revelations 17:7-18, and in daniel 8:15-26. In trying to understand these interpretations, you must keep in mind that the events that these chapters are speaking of are to occur at a future time from both daniel’s time and john’s time. It could happen in our time, or it could happen at a future time from our time as well. :->~~

    • Actually I am saying that a woman can’t be different things in the same book of prophecy. It must be consistent. In fact it is consistent throughout prophecy. If Marianne’s examples are how she portrays them, then a woman in prophecy is always an actual person, just as in Isaiah. But we know that is not true.
      I gave you some scriptures where God’s church are reckoned to a woman as follows:

      Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
      For Example:
      Eph 5:23
      For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

      Eph 5:24
      Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

      Eph 5:25
      Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

      Eph 5:26
      That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

      Eph 5:27
      That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

      Does this sound familiar? Christ will cleanse His church to purify it before it becomes His bride. This is the whole purpose of the Book of Revelation – it proclaims Christs’ return and marriage to the true church.

      Woman, Impure or Corrupt = Apostate Church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4

      For example:

      Hsa 3:1
      Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of [her] friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

      Hsa 2:2
      Plead with your mother, plead: for she [is] not my wife, neither [am] I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

      Hsa 2:3
      Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

      Here God says that the adulterous woman is not His wife and He is not her husband. Christ will not accept a whoring apostate woman as His bride. Those churches (Babylon) will be destroyed.

      Not only do these examples prove that a woman is a church, but they both actually refer to the Book of Revelation! God has never married His church – not yet. That event will be the biggest thing ever to happen in the history of the bible. That is why it has been prophesied about for so long. The Book of Revelation brings it all together – sums it up, brings it to its inevitable conclusion.

      Once you understand its true purpose, the Book of Revelation is easy to figure out. What does God need to do when He returns. Punish the one nation most blessed by Him because some of its people have backslid in their faith? Not without taking out the rest of the planet too, just to be a just and fair god.

      What you see as the wanton destruction of the US is actually the cleansing of His church(es) in preparation for the marriage.
      As an engineer, which do you consider to be more logical?
      Or better yet, as a Christian?
      Bless.

      • hi james

        I have never said that a woman is always a person. I am not sure how you got that impression.

        In the old testament, Israel was always spoken to as if it were a woman. It was either a bride, or a harlot. Israel was a nation, not a church.

        In Hosea, there is a double meaning, because Hosea married a harlot, so he could understand the anguish of a loving God and an unfaithful wife. That is the only case where the prophetic included a natural woman, and was used to represent a nation.

        I also see the book of revelation showing natural and spiritual Israel being represented in Rev 12. It is not only the church here…but Israel as well, since only Israel gave birth to the child. During this time, natural Israel will flee to the wilderness, which is mentioned first, and then this is followed by spiritual, faithful Israel, which flees second, as the devil expands his attack.

        In the beginning of Revelation, the churches are represented by candlesticks, not women. Jezebel is mentioned, but this represents a spirit, in the church, not the church itself.

        The woman on the beast is a city, so now you are getting closer to it being a church, if the city is Rome, and Rome represents the church….

  193. I didn’t mean to say you thought a woman in prophecy is always a real woman, I was only making a point about consistency. Always a church works but always a woman or always the US does not.
    As for rev 12, Israel did not give birth to the man child as Israel did not exist until 1948. The woman represents God’s people, the Jews or more correctly, Judaism – the original church of the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Israel represents Christianity – now the true people of God. Israel is as apostate as the Roman Catholic Church.
    Here is my point – does God marry a woman? Yes.
    Does God marry His people? Yes.
    Does God marry the true church? Yes.
    The church is therefore represented as a woman. Right?
    So how can a woman be a nation (Israel) in rev 12, then the US (or Islam) in rev 14, the a city, then a church at the end unless the word of God is inconsistent. Therein lies the rub. You may be comfortable with such inconsistencies, but I am not. Unless the woman is the same thing throughout the book (the symbol that is) then I tend to reject the interpretation. Otherwise the story gets way too confusing. And in a vain attempt to keep their interpretation believable, many people who simply can’t fill in the missing pieces simply claim the rest is a mystery that we are not supposed to know and leave it at that. They figure that when the time comes, we will all finally figure it out, and meanwhile the whole world will follow the beast.
    This is why it is essential to have these discussions. Perhaps someday something someone has said will help another friend to get thru the tribulation in one piece.
    Unless of course we are all raptured. :)

    • james

      Israel has been in existence since the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It gave birth to the Messiah, which was God’s plan and promise.

      There are different women in scripture. They are not all the same symbolism.

      The woman in rev 12 is faithful. The whore of mystery babylon is not.

      • The “Israel” you speak of is what I refer to as “spiritual Israel” not a nation or country. It represents God’s people, wherever they are, even in Babylon or Poland. This is the Israel that gave birth to the Messiah.
        The question is, is this “spiritual Israel” a “church?” It might just be a matter of semantics, but I would argue that God’s people can be called His church. Not a little wooden building with a steeple and cross. So perhaps we can agree on the terminology and that we are referring to the same thing.
        And as you say, the woman in rev 12 is faithful. Therefore it is the true church. At the time of the birth of Jesus, this church was Judaism, but all that changed at the end of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy, with the stoning of Steven and the rejection of Christ by the Jews. This marked the beginning of the new church – Christianity. Judaism was now apostate. Rev 12 is the story of this change-over. It also shows how Satan, after failing to destroy the new church, managed to infiltrate it with paganism, sending the true church (woman) into exile for 1260 years – the length of the Holy Roman Empire. This is not coincidence, but a fact of history. So why do so many people believe the 1260 years is 1260 days and that is has yet to happen? Then to make it make any sense they say that it is the modern country of Israel that will go into hiding? Really? Israel fleeing in fear? Will they take their 200-300 nukes with them?
        I don’t think so. Not logical. Interestingly, during the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD, only the Christianized Jews fled into the wilderness (Jordan I believe) because they understood the Olivet prophecy. Many people think that that prophecy was end-time, and try to tie rev 12 into it. But as I said, it just doesn’t make any sense. And it doesn’t fit with the rest of Revelation since it’s written for end-time Christians, not Jews or Muslims or Americans etc.

        So there :)

        • It would seem more logical to say jesus gave birth to the church, not the other way around.

          Also, since represented by 12 stars, this indicated natural Israel, who happened to also be spiritual Israel at the time.

          the 1260 days has not happened yet, in my view.

          the book of Daniel indicates Jacob’s time of trouble to be 3 1/2 years, which is 1260 days.

          • There are many ways to look at the symbol of the woman giving birth in rev 12. It would be correct to consider the woman to be Mary, a Jew. She was part of God’s church so the two fit fine. I don’t know what you mean by “natural Israel” but if you mean the land itself (the natural environment) as the mother of Jesus, then I must disagree. Land can not give birth nor can it escape to anywhere. Only people can. I don’t believe the Book of Revelation is about land. Not Babylon, not Rome and not Israel. They are only symbols of religious entities. Of course, Jesus will return to Jerusalem – that much is not just symbolic, But in Daniel and Revelation countries are shown as beasts (or kings) with attributes that indicate who they are.
            As for the 12 stars, they do not represent the nation of Israel but the origins of God’s people. They can be seen as both the 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 apostles of Jesus. They represent the beginning of Judaism and the beginning of Christianity. They may also represent the 12 constellations of the zodiac where the “woman = Virgo the virgin” is behind the sun at the time of Christ‘s birth.
            As for the time of Jacob’s trouble, it is a reference from Jeremiah which refers to the captivity of the Jews by Babylon and is only a metaphor for hard times. There is no time frame given and from history we know it was not 3-1/2 years. Daniel says that the 4th beast will be given power for 1260 years, not days, as he uses the day-for-a-year formula in his book, and not just for the 70 week prophecy as many people believe. Again, I believe in consistency, so unless you have scripture that says when to use days rather than years and vice-versa, then I’ll stick consistency. Try to make all the prophecy work with just days and you will be in big trouble (but not Jacob’s trouble).
            While I used to believe all of this I have since realized this interpretation was put together by taking many verses out of context to prove a point. You have to just assume that old prophecies can be applied to end-time events without the author ever specifying it to be so. I tend to exercise caution in those cases – and there are a lot of them.
            The only time frame confirmed for end-time events is the 3-1/2 years that the two witnesses will preach. All others are just assumptions.
            Seems you arrived at a valid time frame thru invalid assumptions.
            Go figure… :)

            • Natural Israel is unsaved Israel. It is faithful to God but does not know it Messiah yet. Israel was both natural and spiritual Israel in the OT, since jesus had not arrived yet.

              Once jesus came, there was a split between natural and spiritual Israel, with Natural Israel remaining unsaved, not recognizing its Messiah, and Spiritual Israel, who did recognize him.

              Jeremiah predicted that the Jews would be in babylon for 70 years and then would have the chance to return home. read chapter 25.

              Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

              Jews were already in Babylon at the time of Daniel.

              Jeremiah only mentioned Jacob’s trouble but gave no details as to time.

              Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

              Daniel speaks more about the time of the beast:

              Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

              Daniel 12 also speaks of the time of jacob’s trouble in the last days (for the time of the end):

              Dan 12: 1, 6-7

              And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

              And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?

              And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

              thanks…

  194. Thanks for explaining what you were earlier implying James. You say that a woman can’t be different things in the same book of prophecy and that there must be consistency. You also go the extra mile by saying that there should be a form of consistence in the usage of the word ‘woman’ in the prophesies of the bible. Naturally, my next question would be ‘How do you know this? Do you have any scriptures to back your thoughts up with?’ But alas! You actually DO have scriptures for me. Scriptures like Eph 5:23, Eph 5:24, Eph 5:25, Eph 5:26, Eph 5:27 …

    Sheesh! You even gave me passages where the woman is used to represent the apostate church. Passages like Hsa 3:1, Hsa 2:2, Hsa 2:3,

    Well, here’s what i know. With regards to Eph 5:23 and 25, I don’t know if you realise, but these scriptures are not on prophesies but on teachings of holiness and love.

    Eph 5:23 ‘Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it’ makes a comparison between two kinds of love; the love of a husband for his wife, and the love of Christ for the church. It really doesn’t mainly attempt to compare the woman with the church.

    Similarly, Eph 5:23 ‘For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body’, compares the relationship between a man and his wife to the relationship between Christ and the church. The same thing applies to verse 24.

    As for verse 26 and 27, I really don’t see what they have to do with anything.

    Even the passages you gave to show the woman as the apostate church has a lot of problems.

    Hsa 3:1 ‘Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of [her] friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.’ This simply tells Hosea how he is supposed to love this adultrous woman – according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel. It’s all basic english!!

    Once again i dont see what Hosea 2:2-3 has to do with anything.

    All i’m asking is that you make necessary corrections to your passages and present the ones that accurately send your message across. If i ask for a passage that says that the adultrous woman is a city, give me a Revelations 17:18 If i ask for a passage that directly compares a city to a woman, give me Revelations 18:2-4. It takes patience to find passages that direct. Plus you have to be sure you are not reading the bible for the wrong reason, but for the simple reason of understanding the word of God. (and what’s with the smiley face?) :)

  195. The reference verses I gave you were not supposed to be prophetic, but a clue to the definition of a woman when used as a symbol in prophecy. The bible always interprets itself. Sometimes the clues are hidden deep within its pages and only experts way more familiar with it than you or me have to be called upon to find these definitions. While I use the prophecy code, I was not the one to discover it. It has been around for maybe a thousand years or more but until the internet, it was not easy to find in print. Google it and read from the experts how it all came about. Then you can use it or reject it, that’s up to you. Just don’t expect to find any verses in the bible that are going to say something like, “I, the Lord, sayeth to you that henceforth in my prophecy a woman shall be as a church.” I was hoping for that, but the verses were not written as a thesaurus. They are couched in secrecy so that only those with wisdom will understand. I’m not the one with the wisdom, but I’m willing to use the wisdom of others in order to better understand the word of God.
    As for the consistency issue, somewhere in scripture it says that God is not the author of confusion. I take that as a clue to interpreting prophecy. It does not make sense to me that God would use the symbol of a woman for lots of different things. Couldn’t He think of something original for different subjects? Why make everything so confusing and leave the interpretation open to so many possibilities?
    If you think logically, then you must look for simplicity and consistency.
    You also have to look at the Big Picture. The interpretation must satisfactorily explain every verse, not just a couple or every other verse. Plus the “story” must be continuous and make sense. It should not be just a bunch of unrelated scenes like a random selection of YouTube videos. And most of all, it must reflect the character of God. Most people totally ignore this aspect. They forget the God of the Old Testament and how He dealt with His ancient peoples. Almost every verse in the Book of Revelation can be traced back to the Old Testament. Just as Jeremiah warns ancient Israel that they will be punished if they were to continue to defy God’s laws, the Book of Revelation is warning modern Christians of the same thing.
    It is not about Israelis, Americans, Muslims or any other nation. It is about New Testament israel – Christianity. If you stray from that idea, your interpretation is flawed, no matter how much certain verses sound a lot like what you think it does.
    Before I began to study prophecy with a passion and ordered or downloaded over 300 books/articles on the subject, I read the Book of Revelation myself assuming I could figure it all out on my own. For a long time I thought the woman was the US, then I thought it was Islam and then I gave up because the rest of the book failed to support my assumptions.
    Then I began to read books and articles and watch lectures from all different denominations and preachers/teachers. Of course even the experts disagreed, but I read on, for years, then decades. I would lay in bed for 6 or 8 hours at a time just pondering the scriptures, trying to get it to all make sense, like a giant jigsaw puzzle in my head. Just as I used to do when designing a computer program or a circuit board. It helped me come to my current conclusions. Perhaps the technique will for you. And maybe you will go with a different interpretation. So be it. I am just trying to pass on the benefits of my studies to others. After all I have read by experts in the field, I feel I need to pass on what I have learned to others who are looking for clues. Just as I had to reject much of what I read and go with what I felt was correct, you will have to do the same. I’m just trying to get people to think a little differently about prophecy. If I’m right, it could be extremely important to many of them. There is so much to explain all I can do is give you clues, then you have to research the subject for yourself and decide. I wish everyone well in that endeavor.

    As for the smileys, I use them all the time. Its just my way of saying, “It was nice talking to you, have a great day.”

    So here you go, have an extra great day: :) :)

  196. Marianne,
    I guess I just don’t get your whole “Jacob’s trouble” scenario. Jeremiah used the term as a metaphor, and that trouble came true in the 70 year captivity. It isn’t related to Jacob’s actual trouble (wrestling with an angel etc.)
    Daniel 12 talks about another, end-time, trouble, but it is not related to Jacob or Jeremiah. You are tagging it with a title, and I guess that’s O.K. But the time frame of Dan 7-25 is not related to the trouble of Dan 12. It is the time of the little horn of the 4th beast. The one that wipes out 3 of the 10 countries of the dissolving Roman empire. This little horn is the Vatican – a small kingdom with great power and speaking blasphemies. It even thought to change laws and times – eliminating the 2nd commandment and changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday – a crime against God. This euro-vatican beast lasted 1260 years (The Holy Roman Empire) or a time, times and dividing of times. As usual, you fail to apply Daniel’s year for a day formula and come up with 1260 days or 3-1/2 years. Then you apply that time frame to Dan 12 which occurs at the end-time, long after the 4th beast received it’s deadly wound.
    As I said before, you have taken unrelated verses and brought them together to make a point. This is done all the time by many people, and I originally fell for it too. I now oppose this technique and only make connections that are obvious. Sure, I may miss a few small links this way, but I avoid a lot of corruption that way.
    If you apply this principle to the left behind theory, it totally unravels. The rapture, the Antichrist, the 7-year treaty, the deadly wound, the One-World-Order, One-World-religion, the bar-code/RFID chip and others – ALL FALSE! They are figments of imagination, from verses pulled out of context to create an interesting story. And Christians all over the world are falling for it. TV evangelists teach it every Sunday. It is the most commonly believed interpretation. That fact alone should send up a big red flag, for as we know, the whole (Christian) world will follow the beast. How can so many people be fooled? It beats me, but believe me, I’m glad no-one agrees with me. If I were in the majority I would be in big trouble.
    But if I persevere, maybe someone will join me before it’s too late.
    That’s my goal and I’m sticking to it. :)

  197. Pls Mr James, can you try to keep your comments short? (I don’t like to spend too much time reading it)

    Anyways, you always have a very funny way of confusing me. What do you mean by ‘the clues are hidden deep within its pages’? The bible doesn’t hide information, especially not clues. You said it yourself. God is not the author of confusion. That’s why he would not hide any clue from his children.

    And then you speak of experts way more familiar with the bible than us? That counts for nothing. The bible would be understood by whosoever God gives the understanding to, no matter who reads the bible the longest. This reminds me of that instant recorded in the bible of the time Joseph interpreated the Pharao’s dream. All the seasoned magicians and astrologers who have had years of experience with dreams (and most certainly would have interpreated a number of dreams themselves … at least to justify their consultation) could not interpreat the dream, and at the end of the day, it took little Joseph to interpreat the dream. Would you pick the ideas of some so called experts over those of the angels of the most high, the messangers of God themselves? The angels already explained the events of the end time in rev 17 and in daniel 8 and both of them were speaking of the destruction of nations. Don’t think for one second that God can not destroy a nation simply because there are good people in that nation. On this note, i would like to take your mind back to the story of Sodom and Gomorah. The destruction of a nation does not mean that God has forgotten his people. He saved lot and his family by sending his angels to warn them of the destruction of their land, which is the same thing he is doing through rev 18:4 ‘and i heard another voice from heaven saying, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye recieve not of her plagues’.

    “I, the Lord, sayeth to you that henceforth in my prophecy a woman shall be as a church.” that’s quite funny, but that is how you should read the bible; keep it simple so that you are not easily misled. Remember that the devil is a deciever and he (or she … or it … whatever) always finds new ways to decieve people. Indeed God is not the author of confusion. That is why you should read the bible the way it is. If you do that and you still get confused, be sure it is not God that’s confusing you. You need to be more patient if you want to understand the bible.

  198. If what you say is true and all you have to do is to read the bible and it will instantly become clear to you, then why are there so, so many different interpretations of it? Not everyone can be right. Even if you memorize the entire bible, which many preachers have done, you won’t necessarily come up with the same conclusions as others who have memorized it. So you must examine every theory out there and then decide which is right. And if too many verses don’t fit, then you must keep searching.
    The bible most definitely shrouds itself in mystery and symbolism. Jesus spoke in parables that even had to be explained to the very elect. John had to write Revelation in a way that would not offend his Roman guards who read everything he wrote to make sure he wasn’t encouraging an uprising.
    Unfortunately many people just read Revelation and whatever comes to mind they take as the truth and everything they don’t understand they just ignore. I did it too, but as I began to study deeper I discovered that my first impressions were superficial and incorrect. I am still open to correction as God instructs us to have the mind of a child and not an old man fixed in his ways. I believed much of what you do for 20 years – I just took it for granted I knew what I was reading, but I was wrong. So I’m just encouraging you to look at other interpretations and try to get the big picture.
    Of course, if you are right, then there should be no need for schools of theology or bible study classes. Or this web site for that matter. Discussion and teaching should be unnecessary.
    Now, if you believe you are equal to Joseph in interpreting God’s word, perhaps you will do us all a favor and write an article for this site explaining the Book of Revelation, I look forward to reading it because as I said, I read every interpretation I can get my hands on.
    An overview will do – just the seals, the beasts, the mark, the women and the false prophet. I have done this in another article on this site, so now maybe it’s your turn.
    As for Sodom and Gomorrah, have you forgotten that God promised Abraham that if he could find only 10 righteous people in the city He would spare them? I believe there are far more than ten in the U.S., perhaps more than any other country on earth.
    I’m only guessing, but I think maybe you don’t live in America. This means (if you’re right) that you are safe from the retribution of God, so you simply have to sit back and watch CNN as the US is destroyed.
    As I said before, its not a country but all of Christianity.
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls - it tolls for thee. :)
    God bless us all.

  199. If everyone reads the bible the way i say, then yes, there would be so many different ideas. However, these different ideas would not be too far from the one central idea the bible conveys. But we should not forget the deciever Satan. His role in what we end up understanding is quite significant. He has tried to draw people away from the word by putting preconcieved ideas in their minds … can i just take a break from all this back and fourth? My idea seems to be causing a lot of problems. Maybe God would not destroy the US, but He will destroy that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Sorry all americans on this site … i really mean no harm. I have relatives that stay in America, and i hope to travel there (eventually) to further my education, maybe at MIT or any fancy institution. Sorry Mr James … and just one last thing – I’m not joseph. I never said i was joseph …

    • hi good guy

      You are entitled to your opinions too. :)

      to me some things fit about america, but others don’t. babylon is described as trading in certain items….america does not have all these items but the middle east does ( Ivory, frankincense, purple dye, animals)

  200. Well Marianne,
    At least I jewel him down to just Washington DC!
    I should be safe out here in California and so should you. But any readers who live in DC should quit their jobs, sell their homes and get the hell out of there immediately! Run for your lives!
    You know, it seems odd that just because a person has his home within a certain city or even country, that he/she deserves to die. When did God get so political? I thought He judged people individually by their sins. Isn’t there already going to be a judgement day for the wicked? The sharp sickle reaping the earth. But reaping countries? Doesn’t sound like God to me.

    Now if he would only let us in on the mark of the beast! :)

  201. Break over.

    Nobody said people deserve to die because they have their homes in certain countries. If you can be a little practical now, you would see that America has had its share of issues with some powerful people, and it is possible that these parties would come together to destroy america. The thing is that at some point in time, we’ve both thought that the adultrous woman was the US. The only difference between you and I is that you went to seek answers to biblical mysteries outside the bible, while i’m still searching the bible for answers. I came to this site to see if there was anyone who could explain the revelations the way it was written and bring the message out as clearly as possible … you know what? can you explain the parable of the labourers in matthew 20:1-15 to me . This was one of the things i was looking for answers for. Do you think that explaining this parable requires the interpretation of some ‘experts?’ I’m waiting to hear from you.

  202. gg
    Hi is an explanation of the parable:
    That some of those who were first called may yet be last, our Lord confirms by the following parable: of which the primary scope is, to show, That many of the Jews would be rejected, and many of the Gentiles accepted; the secondary, That of the Gentiles, many who were first converted would be last and lowest in the kingdom of glory; and many of those who were last converted would be first, and highest therein. The kingdom of heaven is like – That is, the manner of God’s proceeding in his kingdom resembles that of a householder. In the morning – At six, called by the Roman and Jews, the first hour. From thence reckoning on to the evening, they called nine, the third hour; twelve, the sixth; three in the afternoon, the ninth; and five, the eleventh. To hire labourers into his vineyard – All who profess to be Christians are in this sense labourers, and are supposed during their life to be working in God’s vineyard.

    I believe this is correct, but I suppose that a clever person could twist the words to mean just about anything. So you can believe this interpretation or not.
    By the way, these words were written by John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement and a Christian theologian.
    So maybe that disqualifies this explanation in your mind, but who knows, it just might be right.
    Bless.

  203. I really don’t get what you are claiming the parable illustrates. For example, I know that the parable of the 10 virgins illustrates the unexpected nature of the coming of our Lord (matt 25:1-13), the parable of the sower illustrates the different outcomes when people hear the word of God (matt 13:3-9), but to you, what do you think the parable of the labourers illustrates exactly? And don’t forget to explain yourself clearly and in full (you could make it look a little interesting, you know, maybe like a teaching. Don’t worry. I’m actually getting somewhere with all this) ;)

  204. To explain it properly would require that I include other verses from throughout the new testament where Jesus and the apostles discuss how in the kingdom of God there will a pecking order so to speak. Everyone will be given a grade, according to their works while here on earth. Just because you may have come to the lord later than someone else does not mean you will have a lower standing that them. It all depend on what is in your heart or should I say in your right hand (works) and you forehead (thoughts). If you know and keep God’s laws you will be rewarded. Someone who has been “saved” for a longer time but who disobeys His commandments (and don’t forget the fourth) will have a lesser standing in the kingdom of God.
    Simply said, being first does not guarantee you a good seat.
    I hope maybe I explained it better than the founder of the Methodist church, if that’s possible… maybe because I did it later. :)

  205. James,

    Well, here’s my understanding of the parable. I’d like to know what you think about it … POSITIVE criticism is very much welcomed. (I was actually confused about what the parable ment until my pastor explained it in church during one of his preachings)

    The parable tells the tale of a householder who was looking for people to work for him on his vineyard (matt 20:1). He initially negotiated a pay of one penny a day with the first set of workers, and then set off to find some other labourers to work for him on his vineyard (matt 20:2-3). At various points in time, he found several workers and also negotiated with them about working on his vineyard (matt 20:3-7). The unusual thing about this negotiations however, was that the householder told them ‘… go ye also into the vineyard, and WHATSOEVER IS RIGHT, that shall ye receive.’ and they agreed (matt 20:4, 7). At the end of the day, every labourer was paid a penny, and the first set of labourers was unhappy about that, which to me is quite understandable (matt 20:11-12). But the householder however, rebukes them (matt 20:13-15)

    Why?

    Well I feel the master was happier with those who worked for ‘whatsoever is right’. After all, they worked for the householder without much interest in the reward they would receive from the householder because they knew they would get something from the householder eventually, no matter how small, unlike the first set of labourers who were all about their pay. To me, the parable illustrates the difference between believers that work for God as servants who work for reward only, and those who work for God as true sons of God, knowing their position in the house of God, and that there is no need to fight for rewards for their works because the world is theirs. It also tells us the consequence of falling into any one of these categories. ‘For the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first. For many are called but few are chosen.’ It is because some Christians are more interested in themselves than in the kingdom, that is why God choses only a few and makes them first in the kingdom, even if they were chosen last (the end).

    • We are really saying the same thing here. There is no doubt that there will be rewards in the kingdom. We will be judged on our works, but we do not do works in order to insure a higher place in the kingdom, we do it simply to please God. But the bottom line is the same: Sin against the Lord and you will receive less of a reward in the end.
      As with many parables there may be more than one thing to take away from it. So if you find more than one, don’t assume that only one explanation is correct.

      Just a quick question. Has your pastor ever covered the Book of Revelation and if so, does he agree with your interpretation? As I’ve said, sometimes it helps to ask experts who have studied this stuff their whole lives.
      I had to learn astronomy from people who had already studied the topic and not by starting from scratch with my own observations. I take the same approach when studying scripture. It gives me great insights and a head start since I started late in life and don’t know if I’ll be around long enough to become an expert all by myself.
      Sure, not all so called experts have the same interpretations which is why I read all of them and put them to the test – like writing a computer program. If the lines of code (verses) don’t make a runnable program (come to a logical conclusion) then I try to look elsewhere. This might not work for everybody, but it sure did for me.
      May God bless you in your search for the truth, however you might get there.

  206. (just need to have the last say here)

  207. Pergamum, also known as the place where satan dwells. this is smack in the middle of turkey. Guys look up Dabbar-al-ard.

    • Pergamum, really!
      Lets get this info to the US Air Force so we can drop a bunker buster on his ass. :)

      • I just read nahum 3 and i think you need to read it too. It speaks of the first horseman and the harlot.

  208. This is a REALLY long page. Someone has probably already mentioned it, but it was not listed at the top of the page.

    Exactly why is it that most everyone says it is a city on seven hills,
    when the same passage says she is over ALL the peoples of the earth,
    which are are distributed across SEVEN continents (hills rising above the water)?

    1) Europe
    2) Asia
    3) Africa
    4) N America
    5) S America
    6) Australia
    7) Antartica

    Does not the INTERNET where she trades all her commodities sit on top (orbiting high above) of all these 7 continents hills, just like she sits high above the peoples?

    It seems so plainly clear, so why does the vast majority of everyone try to shrink down the whole earth human population into one tiny city on the whole globe? I don’t get it…

    • it seems like Babylon is a global entity.

    • So are you saying that the internet is Babylon? That would make everyone on this site a sinner in the eyes of God. And since the internet is merely a world-wide communications system, anyone who watches TV or uses a telephone is also guilty. Heck, just talking might get you in trouble.
      Nope, the internet is not guilty of anything. If nothing else, it can be a tool for God to spread His word thru the world in these perilous end times.
      No, the woman is a church – an apostate church. One that is spread throughout the world but is headquartered in the city of seven hills. It is a church system that is polluted with pagan practices forced upon it by the Roman empire with roots that can be traced clear back to ancient Babylon.
      That is what God must destroy before Christ returns to marry His bride, the true church. Not the internet.
      I for one will continue to use the internet to spread God’s word. If you are convinced it is evil then I suggest you unplug your modem right now and pray to God for forgiveness.
      Otherwise, I look forward to your response. :)

      • 1) “So you can’t see 7 continents as being the 7 hills because why exactly?”

        2) I’m going to leave out much info, just to focus on the big picture. The prophet Daniel was a government official living in Babylon during the writing of the beginning of his book, yet he remained innocent of the nation’s sin. The Rev18 physical destruction of a worldwide commerce infrastructure, IS in the hearts of the Rev17:16 rulers of the earth, to create a satanic Dictatorship. The BG leaders ‘hate spiders’ and spiders make webs, and the ‘net’ is one big web. When the final dreadful beast appears, previous ‘Old World Orders’ (which includes the internet) have been destroyed to make room for the ‘New World Order’. Remember, the Rev18 destruction does NOT kill the beast the Babylon woman sits on! After his near fatal head wound (a small part of which is the internet), he survives and morphs into a Strange Beast, considerably different in structure and power than all previous beast world orders. The net might possibly come back online in a small military state form under the antichrist, but never like what it is now, because Ezekiel 39:9,10 suggests a post tribulation primitive society which is very wood dependent.

        Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

        When Babylon is described as ‘GLORY of Kingdoms’ and ‘BEAUTY of Excellency’, no other feature of modern times comes remotely close to the World Communications and Collective Knowledge Technology Power Grid in euphoric description. The Internet is GLORIOUS and the Internet is BEAUTIFUL. Kids at school have a humorously popular phrase: “Wikipedia IS God.” They do not mean to seriously imply they worship it, but the Web is the fulfillment of the Garden of Eden’s ‘Tree of Knowledge’ in its final most mature, beautiful, and glorious form.

        Now it is God that created Knowledge and Knowledge indeed IS beautiful (personally, I love knowledge!), but this kind of beauty is lacks one key feature concerning humanity. Beautiful Knowledge cannot get the [Human Heart to behave itself], neither toward God, nor toward its fellow humans, nor toward its earthly habitat. Beauty has a terribly ugly flaw. Look at our world as a testimony. I ask you a simple question; “How is the Internet (in all its Glorious Beauty) going to solve all the social-economic-corruption diseases which plague humanity?”

    • That has always been upon my heart since I was young and that seven hills were the seven continents, also but there was on piece in scripture that Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” in both Matthew 6 and Luke 16. That leads me to understand that the women the city is the World economy.. Now if you look at the statue in Daniel the head was made of Gold (strong economy) as you work your ways down the statue and after each time a conquering country prevailed their economy suffered.. Now when you get to the feet you see it mixed with clay (debt mixed with asset and/or economy based on non renewable resources) Basically an economy is one that looks stable but will crumble under the weight of it’s deception.. The ten kingdoms are the ten countries who control the stock markets. This is a brief summary of what I believe Not sure if this makes sense to you it hard for me to explain what is upon my heart. This is something that has been on my heart and in my mind for over 15 years..

  209. Sounds like you buy into the “Left Behind” books scenario – a New World Order, Antichrist dictator who controls the world’s currencies, etc. You are also probably looking for a 7-year peace treaty with Israel and a chip to control buying and selling. All of this is bunk. Not gonna happen. What is going to happen will be so different from what everyone expects that they will not realize they are following the beast because they won’t know what the beast actually is.
    As for the internet, it is not a real thing. It is simply a bunch of computers connected by telephone lines. It is simply software programs that let you talk to other machines, not much different than calling a library and asking the librarian to give you some information. There is no actual internet thingy that can be turned off. Just computers and servers, phone lines and modems. And a lot of web sites, like this one. But its no more real than the image you see on the screen when you go to the movies. It looks like something real, but it is just light and shadows on a silver screen.
    The internet is not a World Order nor a beast, nor a kingdom. It is a ghost of technology. You make it into something it is not. To most people it is made of magic and it seems amazing and mystical.
    Open a history book and follow the kingdoms that controlled God’s church. There are four in the book of Daniel and four in Revelation. They are all connected and sequential. They have all existed except the eighth and final kingdom (beast).
    You are looking for strange beasts that can morph into more stranger beasts. You wait for a beast that came and went over 200 years ago. And you don’t recognize the two beasts that are here right now yielding great political and religious power. They will soon combine to form the 8th beast.
    The prophecy has been fulfilled, yet few realize it. They are as the Jews in the time of Christ – who to this day can’t see that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that predicted His first coming. And modern Christians are making the same mistakes in regards to His second coming, and this very post is a good example.
    The woman is a false church, but it is NOT Islam. It is God’s church. His largest, richest and most opulent church. It is the church of Rome – the city of seven hills. It is blasphemous and apostate and is filled with pagan (Babylonian) practices. It must be cleansed and Babylon destroyed before it can become the bride of Christ. This is the overall message of the Book of Revelation. If you miss this, then you won’t have a clue as to the rest of the book.
    The Antichrist, the 7-year peace plan, the New World Order, the rapture and the chip in the right hand or forehead are all science fiction. They will not happen.
    Oh, wait, I think I’m being raptured…

    Never mind. False alarm. (See, I told you). :)

    • 1) “So you can’t see 7 continents as being the 7 hills because why exactly?”

      2) Never read ‘Left Behind’ and I don’t believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

      3) See the diagrams on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_service_provider
      For an United Nations chief leader who has knowledge of where all the primary computer nodes are, a simple EMP to each one of those nodes would effectively melt the core hardware portion of the internet. The web software and general data stored on those nodes would dissolve with it. Next take out the satallites in orbit to remove reflective communications. Those who has the knowledge to build the internet, certainly have the knowledge to take it down, and a whole lot quicker. Its durable in one sense, but very fragile in another. Simple.

      4) As for the Rev13:17 mark of the Beast you say is all science fiction, since there is no part of scripture I can point to that you will believe, I will share with you an experience 25 years ago. During the Christmas holiday’s I was at a get together. There was a man there I had known since childhood who would be classified as a “small” international banker (his office was in Russia). Keep in mind this was years before cell phones and years before the Internet, period. I asked him point blank; “Since skin embedded financial marks were written about in Bible prophecy 2000 years ago, if this came to pass, would you believe the Bible.” He calmly said, “No. Anyone could have figured out thats what would happen.” I was absolutely shocked! He had just confirmed what was clearly on the horizon. Fast forward 15 years and Verichip corporation is making subdermal GPS chips for tracking livestock. Surely you are not ignorant of Digital Angel are you? Has your veternarian not yet offered for your pet to be chipped?

  210. Just because there happens to be 7 continents doesn’t mean that is what Revelation is referring to. When John wrote it, there were only 3 known continents, but the city of Rome was already known as the city of seven hills. Don’t second-guess him.
    Just because they can put chips in pets doesn’t make them the mark of the beast. The infrastructure necessary to chip the world and to connect them all 24/7 to an international banking system is not even possible yet. And if it could be done, it would depend completely on the internet. If as you say, the internet will be taken down by the Antichrist, then he would lose the ability to implement the chip system. I’m afraid the whole left-behind scenario (even without the pre-trib rapture) is too far-out to ever actually happen. You will never get the whole planet to agree to be ruled by a single person. You will never get the whole world to have a chip implanted in them. There will never be a one-world religion and no-one will decide to “worship the beast” by giving up their current religion.
    Your Christmas story brings up an interesting point. In fact, it is the main point of the Book of Revelation and the bible in general. God doesn’t care if you use a chip or a credit card to buy stuff. Look back to Jeremiah. His church was breaking His laws and had to be punished, thus came the Babylonian captivity. Harsh, but necessary. Now it is the Christian’s turn. They have become apostate, breaking commandment left and right. Celebrating pagan holidays as if they were God’s. Including Christmas. And Easter. And Valentines day. And Halloween. All pagan. All anti-christ.
    If you do not rest on Saturday and dedicate the day to the Lord, you are breaking God’s commandment, and if you worship on Sunday, you have the mark of the beast. Almost the entire Christian world has it right now, but nobody realizes it.
    I know it sounds silly, but the Book of Revelation is not a sci-fi novel even though many have interpreted it as such. It is a simple message to Christians: Your savior is returning to marry His bride, the true church. If your church is apostate, you need to get out of it before God destroys it. And if you keep ignoring His commandments, you will be punished with the seven last plagues. That’s it in a nutshell. Plus the seals and trumpets and stuff. But the basic story is quite Old Testamenty. Wrath of God, judgement of the wicked, destruction of evil – you know what I mean.
    If you think that sounds too biblical for you, then feel free to go with the whole sci-fi scenario. But I encourage you to rethink the whole concept from a different perspective and ask yourself not WHAT God will do, but WHY He will do it and perhaps you will begin to see the Book of Revelation in a new light.
    Bless…

  211. government has passed laws to regulate the internet. some protest.

    http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/24-hour-wikipedia-blackout-will-protest-sopa-pipa-1055164?src=rss

  212. Concerning the Mother of Harlots the Bible says,” Deliver every man his soul. Be not cut off in her iniquity (that is do not commit her sin are you will go to hell). Here’s a hit of the sin of the Mother of Harlots, The Bible says, O thou dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. What the mother of Harlots is doing, concerning, exessively and culpably desirous of the possessions of another? Have you ever read the Book of Solomon how he describe God wisdom as, good ointments, rows of jewels, gold, silver, wood, frankincense, scarlet, cinnamon, wine, wheat, ivory. marble and ect. Thus says Solomon, His mouth (The Word of God) is most sweet: yea he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. Remember the Word of God is His treasure. Have you ever thought about what the Mother of Harlots was selling which made God so angry. Whatever she was selling is a sin to sell such merchandise in the eyes of the Lord. Think about it, when He sent out his disciples, He said, Freely you receive, freely give. He also teaches us whosoever love me will obey me. Thus should today prophets merchandise the Word of God for profit? than why is written in the Book of Micah 3:8-12, I will declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for pay, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us. Therefore shalll Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

  213. In the Book 1 Corinthians 9:18, Paul question our understanding by saying, What is my reward? (that is to say if I teach the word of God for pay). According to the Book of Micah, it is a sin for a priest to teach the Word of God for pay, charge, profit. Thus says Paul, Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. Woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel. Surely Paul preach what the book of Micah preach concerning the priest who teach for pay.
    This is a short letter to all my brothers and sisters who say they or ordained by God to preach the The Word of God, Thus if you love God, you will obey God, for He teaches us, FREELY YOU RECEIVE THE WORD OF GOD, FREELY YOU GIVE. Thus what if a man don’t preach the Word of God freely but for a charge, pay, profit, that is to say disobey God, yea what will be his or her reward from God.

    • hi carolyn

      I would agree with that, which is why no money is accepted for helping people here. The word is presented here to learn, discuss, debate, and clarify. That is enough blessing for me.

  214. Hi Carolyn,
    I’m just not sure who you believe the Mother of Harlots is exactly. An apostate church? A nation?
    Feel free to elaborate. :)

  215. Isaiah 1:21, How the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of judgment; she was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her; But now murderers. In her (the bloody city) was found the blood (iniquities) of prophets (the kings, yea priests), and saints, and all that were slain upon the earth. The kings, such merchants, are the great men of the earth, by their sorceries were all nations deceived.

    • This passage perfectly illustrates my point that the harlot woman is the current Christian church which became apostate when it combined with the Roman pagan religions around 300 AD. Pagan holidays, ceremonies and Sunday worship are still with us today and almost the entire Christian world takes part in them. This paganism is the “Babylon” that is destroyed before Christ returns.
      We shouldn’t be looking to other religions in order to find Babylon.
      Babylon is us.

      • I agree there is paganism in the Church due to the Universal Church wanting to convert Pagans. Like Easter, Lent, and Christmas.

        These Popes are very educated. Why are they not trying to change Easter back to Resurrection day the last day of Passover? Easter does not always fall on the last day of Passover. So, I can only wonder about their motives. What do you think?

  216. Sorry about theerrors in my above post. Thus today my computer cursor is not working like it should.

  217. There is no need for me to apologize, for my computer cursor. I just read a few posts above mine, and in everybody post the words are running together as like within my today post . I believe I’m having a bad computer day.

  218. Harlots in the Bible is also called beasts. Read Ezekiel 34:7-31, The house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God. As I live saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to Every Beast of the field. Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

    What meat is this (such as the FLOCK) in the beasts, shepherds mouth?
    Yeah let us rightfully divide the scriptures. Read Jeremiah 51:13, O thou that dwellest upon many waters abundant in treasures (waxed rich), thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. Now read 2 Peter 2:3 – 22, (But these are false prophets, false teachers), and through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Thus says God, But the shepherds fed themselves (yeah trough covetousness, they with feigned words make merchandise of you), and fed not my flock (freely). What feigned words the shepherds use to make merchandise of you. I did my best adding it all up, Thus I heard many shepherds say, If you sow your best seed, God will bless you in return, 30, 60, even 100 fold. I also heard many shepherds say, If you give a tenth of your income, God will not curse you, but bless you in every arena of your life. I also heard many shepherds say, order my sermons you will surely be bless, and I heard many shepherds say, order my book or ect and the Lord will surely bless you.
    God will judge us by His Word! It is written in Micah 3:8-11, It is a sin for a priests (shepherds) to teach for pay. And this very day I observe a lot of shepherds who want to get paid, yeah, believe it, they are making merchandise of the people. Titus speaks the truth, They profess that they know GOD, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
    According to Nahum 3, Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the shepherds prey departheth not. Thus says God, I will cut off thy prey from the earth, and the voice of thy messengers shall no more be heard. Revelation 18:11 thru is stating, And the merchants of the earth (great men, beasts, harlots) shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandsie any more. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.
    Is God wrathful with the Harlot for making merchandise of his flock? Remember He said, the day cometh, for His flock will no longer be meat in the beasts, shepherds mouth.

  219. seems some people forget one there are church of YEHSUAH AND THERE IS THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST WHO FOLLOW THE CORPORATE WHORE CHURCH OF BABYLON AND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS THE 501C3 WHORE CHURCH AND WHO OWNS THE 501C3 STATUS IS THE VATICAN WHO IS THE WHORE OF BABYLON AND ITS CHURCHS ARE THE DAUGHTERS OF THE WHORE
    FOR ALL THE WARS ARE RUN BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HERE IS ONE CONFIRMATION THAT IT IS THE WHORE read the book by AVRO MANHATTAN the book is called the vatcans holocaust also it tells the reason why jfk was murdered and who was behind it
    and there are other books that are by him that point to it the jesuit priest are the assassins and is the ones controlling nobama as also he has F-AIDS and is dying as we talk but that is another subject but the whore of babylon is not jerusalem but there is one fact that the pope wants to put his throne there in jerusalem using his asset KING JUAN CARLOS WHO IS THE KING OF JERUSALEM

    • hi dracula

      you make some good points.

      how do you know obama has AIDS?

      why do you think Juan Carolos is king of Jerusalem?

      • I can’t address the AIDS allegation, but in the days of the Holy Roman Empire, the King of Spain was given the title “King of Jerusalem” It was probably a crusades thing. Juan Carlos inherited the title.
        Means crap…

  220. couldn’t the woman who sits on the beast be America ,it is the most powerful nation .Americans do abominations .There are many proofs that America is Babylon or the woman.Just check in Google by searching “is America Babylon .

    • Jim,
      A lot of churches teach that the US is the 2nd beast of Revelation, and they base it primarily on rev18 where it describes how rich and powerful the beast is.
      But there are too many other verses that contradict this.
      For example:
      Rev 13:11
      And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
      Rev 13:12
      And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
      This beast is a religious kingdom. It looks like the lamb (Jesus) but is speaks like Satan. It is apostate, and as we read later it contains the whore woman (church) which rides it. The woman (church) sit on 7 hills – the city of Rome – the city in which the Vatican resides.

      None of this fits America, or Islam, for Islam has never tried to look like the son of God, even though they too are blasphemous. And to make the first verse fit, the first beast must be The British Empire since the two are clearly related. But I’ve never seen anyone try to prove that.

      Then there are the tell-tale colors of the beast – scarlet and purple. Not red white and blue. the Vatican is filled with priests and cardinals wearing scarlet and purple. The golden cup is used in the mass. It has no relationship to the US.
      So you see what I mean – you need to toss out a lot of verses to say the US is the 2nd beast. Most people are fine with doing that, as long as it helps prove their point, but that is taking away from the words in the book and we are warned against doing that.
      Bless.

  221. No, it’s Istanbul: http://www.scribd.com/endtimeleaks/d/95899790-Vatileaks-The-New-Holy-Roman-Empire

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