Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?

Traditionally, the 7 hills of the book of Revelation are assigned to Rome. So is this the only option?

NO

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills:

Amman, Jordan

Asunción, Paraguay

Bath, England

Cincinnati, OH United States

Edinburgh, Scotland

Istanbul, Turkey

Jerusalem, Israel

Kampala, Uganda

Lisbon, Portugal

Moscow, Russia

Nevada City, United States

Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opyš), Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín

Providence, Rhode Island, built on Christian Hill, College Hill, Constitution Hill, Federal Hill, Smith Hill, Tockwotten Hill, and Weybosset Hill.

Rome, Italy

Saint-Etienne, France

Seattle, United States

Sheffield, England

Tirumala, India

Worcester, Massachusetts, United States

Plovdiv, Bulgaria

ceuta , morocco

Recall there are 10 toes in the king’s statue in the book of Daniel.

But 10+ 1 = 11 happens,……then 11-3 = 8, as the 11th conquers 3, so the numbers change as the prophecy progresses.

The woman in Revelation 17 is riding on the beast. She is NOT the beast. …….The Beast has 10 horns.

It is the woman that sits on the 7 hills, not the beast.

The beast does not sit there on 7 hills, just the woman. The beast and the woman are 2 different things.

The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Islam), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (Hashemite kingdom), which is a kingdom, the ancient Grecian empire….now Muslim territory. The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. See The Fouth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist of Islam – the 12th Imam Mahdi Click here for more

Notes about Rome’s 7 seven hills…..why it cannot be Rome…..

The now-famous Vatican Hill (Latin Collis Vaticanus) is northwest of the Tiber and is not one of the Seven Hills of Rome. Likewise, the Pincian Hill (Latin Mons Pincius), to the north, and the Janiculum Hill (Latin Ianiculum), to the west, are not counted among the traditional Seven Hills.

Of the Seven Hills of current Rome, five (Aventine, Caelian, Esquiline, Quirinal and Viminal hills) are populated with monuments, buildings, and parks. The Capitoline now hosts the Municipality of Rome, and the Palatine Hill is an archaeological area. Note that the Vatican hill is not one of the “seven hills” of Rome, as it is located on the opposite side of the river Tiber. So the association of the Roman papacy as the woman is not a strong argument.

City of Amman, which was built on 7 hills like Rome, started its modern history in 1878. Amman is located in a hilly area of north-western Jordan. The city was originally built on seven hills, but it now spans over an area of nineteen hills (each known as a jabal or “mountain”). The main areas of Amman gain their names from the hills and mountains on whose slopes they lie.


The city of Constantinople (now Istanbul) was built on seven hills, after the city of Rome.

Istanbul ,one of the great historical cities of the world, is the only city in the world located upon two continents with one arm reaching out to Asia and the other arm to Europe. The Old City and the New City are separated by the Golden Horn, an inlet of the Bosphorus. It is a natural channel seven km long and is connected by two bridges, the Galata Bridge and Atatürk Bridge.

Istanbul was known as the city on the seven hills. Whether Constantine the Great was actually aware of the fact that the new city was, founded on seven hills remains uncertain.

The seven hills, all located in the area within the walls, first appeared when the valleys of the Golden Horn and the Bosphorus were opened up during the Secondary and Tertiary periods. In the Ottoman, as in the earlier Byzantine period, each hill was surmounted by monumental religious buildings.

The first hill on which the ancient city of Byzantium was founded, begins from Seraglio Point and extends over the whole area containing Hagia Sophia, the Sultan Ahmet Mosque and Topkapi Palace.

On the second hill are to be found the Nuruosmaniye Mosque, Grand Bazaar and cemberlitas. The second hill is divided from the first by a fairly deep valley running from Babiali on the east Eminonu.

The third hill is now occupied by the main buildings of Istanbul University, the Mosque of Beyazit to the south and the Mosque and Complex of Suleymaniye to the north. The southern slopes of the hill descend to Kumkapi and Langa.

The fourth hill on which stood the Church of the Holy Aposties and, subsequently, the Mosque of Mehmet the Conqueror, slopes down rather steeply to the Golden Horn on the north and, rather more gently, to Aksaray on the south.

On the fifth hill we find the Mosque of Sultan Selim. The fifth and the sixth hills are separated by the valley running down on the west to Balat on the shore of the Golden Horn.

On the sixth hill are to be found the districts of Edirnekapi and Ayvansaray Its gentle slopes run out beyond the line of the defense walls.

The seventh hill extends from Aksaray to the city defense walls and the Marmara. It is a broad hill with three summits producing a triangle with apices at Topkapi, Aksaray, and Yedikule.

Istanbul (Constantinople) is located in the golden horn of turkey.

Turkey is the geographical head of the beast. (Babylon is the heart.) (See post on 4th beast) It has a horn on its head, and is called the Golden Horn. Istanbul is the city of the woman. It is part of both the Roman and Grecian empires.

Recall that the antichrist is sometimes called the “little horn.” (Daniel 8.) A real geographical location, known as the Golden Horn, is identified with, and located at, the city on 7 hills, Istanbul, which is in Turkey, which is the head of the geographical map of the beast (see post about the 4th beast). This must be more than coincidence.

The woman (city) in Revelation 17 also sits on many waters. Istanbul “sits” on or near the Sea of Marmara, the Golden Horn Rver, the Bosphorus Strait, the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea, the sea of Crete, and the Mediteranean Sea.

Istanbul (Constantinople) also has a history of pagan, Christian and Muslim rule. Constantinople fell to the jihaidists in 1453, ending the Byzantine rule, and Christian saints have been persecuted ever since by Islam. The woman (represents Islam) is described as “drunk with the blood of the saints.”

The woman (city) will persecute the Jews and believers in the end times. She controls the beast by riding it.

Constantinople as a center for Islam is one possibility, for the reasons given above. What do you think?


1,295 Responses to “Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?”

  1. […] here for […]

    • I think the woman who sits on the 7 hills may be jerusalem herself (yes i know im about too get lynched). After all it is the whore of Babylon. Read Ezekial, 16 in particular, it is end time stuff but the wroth is getting poured out on Jerusalem heavily!! Do a word search on http://www.biblegateway.com for the word whore (KJV). It’s talking about Jerusalem more often than not.
      Im open too other ideas but im gonna need v strong evidence against it

      • Just too elaborate a bit JAR frequently refers through his prophets to israel as his wife. who goes a whoring after other gods (of stone, gold silver brass)
        Another side note for my fellow christian brothers and sisters. We must not be unequally yoked! Those of you who celebrate christmas please read Jeremiah 10:1-5 this is a description of Ashtaroth (the christmas tree). You can find more mentions of Ashtaroth too.
        Also to those who observe the feasts of JAR (not done by our calandar but by lunar cycles (passover will be on march 30th for 7 days) the end time will not come as a thief in the night becuase it falls on the feast of trumpets.
        God bless u

        • Jerusalem is one of the victims of the mother of harlots. Never does the text of the Apocalypse ter the seven Letters mention the Jews as aggressors, but men in general. Way more people follow the beast of islam than even have compassion on the People of GOD, Israel.

        • I agree that Jerusalem fits as the harlot for she is where the blood of the prophets are placed. After the false christ takes over the city will be destroyed and then have to be cleansed for the New Jerusalem where Jesus where reign for 1,000 years. Jerusalem is also called spiritually “Sodom and Egypt” so that’s a BIG clue.

      • hi dave

        People do not get lynched here. 🙂

        Jerusalem right now has righteous people in it, but other countries want to divide it in half, and give half to the Palestinians.

        Around that time, or after, the Antichrist will show up and commit all his abominations.

        Israel was a whore at times in its past, but it is not really acting like that now. I think most nations could be described as whores now, so even if Israel had a fallen spiritual nature, it would not be alone.

        once the Antichrist invades and takes over Jerusalem, I can see how the description would change for the worst.

        • when u say righteous ppl who do u mean? Dont get me wrong i know i could be grafted out of the tree of life but israel doesnt let messianic jews into jerusalem. And the muslims @ the wailing wall dont even know what there prayer means. Ezekial 23 Samaria and Jerusalem do whore themself to Babylon. I dont know if its right. But i need scripture to refute it

          • hi dave

            The righteous there are sincere christians and faithful jews.

            The messianic Jew issue is a separate political topic, and has to do with aggressive proselytizing. I understand their zeal, but they just need to tone down their witnessing, so they actually attract people, rather than turn them off.

            I do not consider Muslims righteous because :
            (1) they have a different god/creator and
            (2) their behavior in Israel is not righteous.

            The more the Muslims take over Jerusalem, the more it will be degraded, spiritually and physically.

            • Marianne,

              I absolutely agree with you.

              Agressive proselytizing is not good, and folks
              should first check how good Christians they are
              themselves before talking to the Jews.

              Personally, I beleived in Jesus Christ through
              revelation of Holy Spirit after being 3 days in
              a coma. I even never met a Christian who tried
              to proselyte me, I grew up in Jewish Orthodox
              environment; I beleive that that’s how it will
              be with rest of the Jews…especially during the
              tribulation.

              I also should mention agressive anti-missionary
              Jews, like Tovia Singer, who I think is possesed
              by spirit of blindness, I even heard him many times
              distorting Torah and Talmud as long as it fitted
              his anti-Christian agenda, this here totally
              upset me:

              http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/134008

              • Jews like Tovia Singer I’ve heard all about before how they don’t believe Jesus is the son of God nor Messiah because they would have got their 3rd Temple and the Romans would have been expelled etc… So nothing really new in attitudes over time.

                When we look at Jesus he had his fair share of people to deal with that tried to contradict and trick him. He also had people whom disliked him, whom were not just Roman’s but also some Jews as well, due to his extremely controversial nature.

                In John 8:1-11 it was Pharisees whom tried to trick him, in Matthew 26:57-26. 67 Caiaphas and other chief priests look for false evidence to frame Jesus and charge him with blasphemy then finally take him to Pilate. However this is not the first time Jesus has rubbed Caiaphas the wrong way.

              • Gavriel, I am interested in hearing more about your conversion to Christianity. Will you please elaborate more? Thank you.

            • Just think of all the Muslims that could have been brought to Jesus had they not been treated so badly by the Jews? I really doubt that God is happy about this especially since the Jews are still exiled till the fullfilment of the Gentiles. It all seems to be a zionist movement to steal land. The Jewish people do not even support themselves. They are supported by the US while those Muslims want to work but their lives are made so difficult. How would the Jews feel f this had happened to them? Especially knowing that it was all a setup in the beginning? People cannot help but see the Palestinians as the real victims in all this and I am sure that God sees it the same way. How many of those Palestinians who have been there for generations ar the real Israelites? Most of the jews there all have European lines and most are converted Khazarians. Will the real Jew please stand up?

              • linda

                you must be either an uninformed liberal or a muslim to make such statements

                Muslims have killed jews or mistreated them since 622 AD.
                http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html#n3

                muslims have a long history of killing infidels
                https://www.facebook.com/notes/knowledge-is-power/290-million-victims-of-islamic-terror/416083148469556/

                https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

                jews have a strong work ethic and work for what they have in america. many muslims are given privelege status and do not have to work.

                jews have contributed to american society since the early 1600s, at that time muslims were robbing and pirating american ships, taking captives, and holding them for randsom…if no money then all captives die or get sold into slavery…..muslims have the biggest slave trade in world history

                jews always work for a living, even when they have been oppressed, like in Nazi germany, and by the way the muslims in palestine volunteered to help hitler kill the jews, and they did so, to keep jews from escaping to safety to israel.

                jews have owned and lived on the israeli land thousands of years before time of christ…..any land the muslims had was taken by invasion and confiscation….but later won back by jews….then the UN stuck its nose into the local affairs and started giving away Israel land to the arab muslims as a bribe to get them to be peaceful…but the muslims never have been peaceful.

                the jews in israel are real, and the kazar stuff is a myth used to discreit jews from owning their own land.

                so if you go to israel, any jew there would be glad to “stand up” for you…they have DNA studies to back themselves up

                I suggest you stop listening to muslim propaganda.

            • you mention “righteousness” how would you define righteousness? the bible describes it as Faith( in God who shed his blood by his grace and love” “put on faith and love as a breastplate” the breastplate is righteousness in the armour of God . the gospel reveals a “righteousness that is from God” “by faith from first to last” “so that no one can boast” many falsely describe righteousness as “keeping some commandments” which is not righteousness but the “law of sin and death” “the law of tthe spirit of life in Christ JESUS set us free from the law of sin and death” the new law of JESUS IS LOVE GOD AND YOUR NEIGHBOR” this love is given freely and received freely , unearned undeserved righteousness “faith and love”

              • ted

                righteousness is as being right or perfect before the Father GOd.

                the only way to do that is to have the righteousness of Christ upon us, as our own is as filthy rags

      • Dave,
        Check with the list below to see what a woman in prophesy refers to. Your whore can refer to the actions of a real woman or a city or nation, that’s true. But in prophecy a woman is always a church so you must look for a church today that fits all the descriptions of both revelation and Daniel. The whore church is the same one mentioned in rev 13 – the blasphemous beast from which the image and the mark come from. Daniel 7 describes the beast of rev 13 coming from his fourth beast (empire) or Rome. Rome is the key. The Roman empire, the Holy Roman empire and the Roman catholic church. Beasts 4, 5 and 6 of revelation. Revived Rome (EU) is 7 and an upcoming revived Holy Roman Empire will be the 8th king, of the 7th. It all stays in Rome, no need to jump over to Jerusalem and besides, its not a church,

        Bible Prophecy Symbols
        Why cloak Bible prophecies in Symbols? And Jesus said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.” Luke 8:10. Many of the apocalyptic prophecies were given while the prophets were in a hostile foreign land. One reason God cloaked the prophecies in symbols was to protect the messages.

        Animals and their Parts
        • Horse = Strength and Power in Battle Job 39:19, Psalms 147:10, Proverbs 21:31
        • Dragon = Satan or his agency Isaiah 27:1; 30:6, Psalms 74:13-14, Revelation 12:7-9, Ezekiel 29:3, Jeremiah 51:34
        • Beast = Kingdom / government / political power Daniel 7:17, 23
        • Lamb = Jesus / sacrifice John 1:29, 1Corinthians 5:7
        • Lion = Jesus / Powerful King i.e. Babylon Revelation 5:4-9, Jeremiah 50:43-44, Daniel 7:4, 17, 23
        • Bear = Destructive Power / Medo Persia Proverbs 28:15, 2Kings 2:23-24, Daniel 7:5
        • Leopard = Greece Daniel 7:6
        • Serpent = Satan Revelation 12:9; 20:2
        • Tongue = Language / Speech Exodus 4:10
        • Wolf = Disguised Enemies Matthew 7:15
        • Dove = Holy Spirit Mark 1:10
        • Ram = Medo Persia Daniel 8:20
        • Goat = Greece Daniel 8:21
        • Horn = King or kingdom Daniel 7:24; 8:5, 21-22, Zechariah 1:18-19, Revelation 17:12
        • Wings = Speed / Protection / Deliverance Deuteronomy 28:49, Matthew 23:37

        Colors
        • White = Purity Revelation 12:9; 20:2
        • Blue = Law Numbers 15:38-39
        • Purple = Royalty Mark 15:17, Judges 8:26
        • Red/Scarlet = Sin/corruption Isaiah 1:18, Nahum 2:3, Revelation 17:1-4

        Metals, Elements, and Natural Objects
        • Gold = Pure Character Precious and Rare Isaiah 13:12
        • Silver = Pure Words & Understanding Proverbs 2:4; 3:13-14; 10:20; 25:11, Psalms 12:6
        • Brass, Tin, Iron, Lead, Silver dross = Impure Character Ezekiel 22:20-21
        • Water = Holy Spirit / Everlasting Life John 7:39; 4:14, Revelation 22:17, Ephesians 5:26
        • Waters = Inhabited area/people, nations Revelation 17:15
        • Fire = Holy Spirit Luke 3:16
        • Tree = Cross; People / Nation Deuteronomy 21:22-23, Psalms 92:12; 37:35
        • Seed = Descendents / Jesus Romans 9:8, Galatians 3:16
        • Fruit = Works / Actions Galatians 5:22
        • Fig Tree = A Nation that should bear fruit Luke 13:6-9
        • Vineyard = Church that should bear fruit Luke 20:9-16
        • Field = World Matthew 13:38, John 4:35
        • Harvest = End of World Matthew 13:39
        • Reapers = Angels Matthew 13:39
        • Thorns / Thorny Ground = Cares of this life Mark 4:18-19
        • Stars=Angels/messengers = Revelation 1:16, 20; 12:4, 7-9, Job 38:7
        • Jordan = death Romans 6:4, Deuteronomy 4:22
        • Mountains = Political or religio-political powers Isaiah 2:2-3, Jeremiah 17:3; 31:23; 51:24-25, Ezekiel 17:22-23, Daniel 2:35, 44-45
        • Rock = Jesus / truth 1Corinthians 10:4, Isaiah 8:13-14, Romans 9:33, Matthew 7:24
        • Sun = Jesus / the gospel Psalms 84:11, Malachi 4:2, Matthew 17:2, John 8:12; 9:5
        • Winds=Strife / commotion / “winds of war” Jeremiah 25:31-33, 49:36-37; 4:11-13, Zechariah 7:14

        Miscellaneous Objects
        • Lamp = Word of God Psalms 119:105
        • Oil = Holy Spirit Zechariah 4:2-6, Revelation 4:5
        • Sword = Word of God Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12
        • Bread = Word of God John 6:35, 51-52, 63
        • Wine=blood/covenant / doctrines Luke 5:37
        • Honey = happy life Ezekiel 20:6, Deuteronomy 8:8-9
        • Clothing = Character Isaiah 64:6, Isaiah 59:6
        • Crown = A Glorious Ruler or Rulership Proverbs 16:31, Isaiah 28:5, Isaiah 62:3
        • Ring = Authority Genesis 41:42-43, Esther 3:10-11
        • Angel = Messenger Daniel 8:16; 9:21, Luke 1:19, 26, Hebrews 1:14
        • Babylon = apostasy / confusion / rebellion Genesis 10:8-10; 11:6-9, Revelation 18:2-3; 17:1-5
        • Mark = Sign or seal of approval or disapproval Ezekiel 9:4, Romans 4:11, Revelation 13:17; 14:9-11; 7:2-3
        • Seal = Sign or mark of approval or disapproval Romans 4:11, Revelation 7:2-3
        • White Robes=Victory / righteousness Revelation 19:8; 3:5; 7:14
        • Jar / Vessel=Person Jeremiah 18:1-4, 2Corinthians 4:7
        • Time = 360 Day Daniel 4:16, 23, 25, 32; 7:25; Daniel 11:13 margin
        • Times = 720 Days Daniel 7:25, Revelation 12:6, 14; 13:5
        • Day = Literal year Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34
        • Trumpet = loud warning of God’s approach Exodus 19:16-17, Joshua 6:4-5

        Actions, Activities, and Physical States
        • Healing = Salvation Luke 5:23-24
        • Leprosy / Sickness = Sin Luke 5:23-24
        • Famine = Dearth of Truth Amos 8:11

        People and Body Parts
        • Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
        • Woman, Corrupt = Apostate church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4
        • Thief = Suddenness of Jesus’ coming 1Thessalonians 5:2-4, 2Peter 3:10
        • Hand = Deeds / Works / Actions Ecclesiastes 9:10, Isaiah 59:6
        • Forehead = Mind Deuteronomy 6:6-8, Romans 7:25, Ezekiel 3:8-9
        • Feet = Your Walk / Direction Genesis 19:2, Psalms 119:105
        • Eyes = Spiritual Discernment Matthew 13:10-17, 1John 2:11
        • Skin = Christ’s righteousness Exodus 12:5, 1Peter 1:19, Isaiah 1:4-6
        • Harlot = Apostate church/religion Isaiah 1:21-27, Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9
        • Heads = Major powers/rulers/governments Revelation 17:3, 9-10

        Hope this helps.

        • Wow. Impressive list brother. Did u compile it or find it? If so where?
          I would be careful with it tho incase u cast pearls b4 swine (which i pray im not)

        • A woman is not always a church. Paul used Hagar to represent not the church but the antithesis. There is one woman of GOD and the other is distinct from her.

        • You said the Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church are the 4th, 5th and 6th BEASTS and the EU is the 7th, and the Revived Holy Roman Empire is the 8th. First of all, none of these are BEASTS. They are all HEADS of ONE Beast.
          Second, if the Holy Roman Empire and the Catholic Church sitting on the Beast with seven heads, and the Holy Roman Empire and Catholic Church are two of those heads, then the Holy Roman and the Catholic Church are sitting on themselves and/or each other. Te Woman can’t be one of the heads.

      • Hi Dave, I too have come to the conclusion that the whore is Jerusalem and I can present a lot of scripture to support it. It may be difficult to accept but I think scripture supports it. Remember the woman was first mentioned in Rev 12:1 with the Red Dragon, she ran into the wilderness in verse 6 and verse 14. Now in Rev 17:3 John is carried to wilderness and there he finds the woman riding the scarlet beast (red dragon). This is the same woman who gave birth to the man child which is the Jewish nation: She has now become the mother of harlots.

      • Hi

        It is good to know that you are interested to know about one of the controversial issues in the bible.. but there is one important factor that you need to consider the most..salvation. What is important is you’re not here in this world when the truth is revealed – as to who really that woman is..as it’s already the tribulation period and children of God has raptured already to be with the Lord Jesus Christ.. thank you

      • Cannot be Jerusalem because Jerusalem has not persecuted nor killed the saints of God,when Rev, was told, it had been destroyed by Rome…and Rome [popes] have PROUDLY said she sits on 7 hills…Join the dots

      • I am researching this idea of Jerusalem being the city of 7 hills on which the woman sits…the city may not be Rome as traditionally thought of.

      • Israel is Mystery Babylon, Most Jews are actually Edomites. Edom interbred with Judah after being converted to Judaism in Hasmonean times.

      • Except, of course, Jerusalem was never in Babylon. Wasn’t Mecca in Babylon?

      • you are 100% correct. its the same city were the Lord was crucified. Jesus was never crucified in Rome or any of those other cities. Only Jerusalem. So the theologians need to re look at their teachings about Rome etc. Its Jerusalem. 100% sure. YES.

    • good article feel free to read my notes information another city on face book john beam i studied alot on istanbul alot more information there thank you for this post

    • In the book of Revelations it says,
      Revelation 17:10, “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

      Revelation 17:11, “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

      I am the only person who has ever figured out what this means!

      In June of 2004 i was watching the news and there were 5 x pres. who were all alive at that point in time. They were Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, Bill Clinton. These are the 5 kings that the bible says are fallen in Rev. 17:10.

      Pres. George W. Bush was the 6th king that the bible refers to in the present tense. All 7 of these people (or kings) were alive at that point in time.

      I know now that Pres. Barack Obama is the 7th king that the bible says must continue a short space.

      In the book of Daniel 11:20 it says of the king just before the appearance of the anti-Christ (witch would make him the 7Th king spoken of in Rev. 17:10 since the anti-Christ is the 8Th king …

      King James Bible
      Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

      A raiser of taxes is a good description of Pres. Obama, sense he is by far the biggest tax raiser in american history.

      Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honor of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

      23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

      I think this means that the anti-Christ will probably not be elected into office. But will bypass the vice pres. some how through this small group of people who might be some insiders pulling some strings during a national emergency. But that’s just a guess.

      The angel Gabrial told me in Aug. of 1973 that Jimmy Carter was the anti-Christ and that he was going to divorce his wife.

      • pride much?

        “I am the only person who has ever figured out what this means!”

        and false prophet at all?

        “The angel Gabrial told me in Aug. of 1973 that Jimmy Carter was the anti-Christ and that he was going to divorce his wife.”

        yeah, right.

        dude, if Carter is going to divorce his wife, he’d better hop to it, and since he is…um…like 87 years old now….it’s pretty iffy that he is the “anti-christ”.

        you better check your “angels” and figure out who you are listening to.

        Just as an aside….if one was going to masquerade as Christ, doncha think that he will likely be Jewish looking, and about 30-33 years old? not a black man with sticking-out ears like Howdy-Doody.

        This “anti-christ” can’t be just the opposite of Christ, cause he won’t fool anyone, don’t you get it? He will have to deceive people into thinking that he is Jesus. Wake up and think, folks.

        • hi Daisy

          We get some colorful people here on the site. It comes with being an open public forum. I believe in freedom of speech, so everyone gets a chance. Once the AC comes on the scene, this will all change.
          god bless you.

      • Okay, this post was almost 7 yrs. ago now, but Question: Could Trump be the one who speaks flatteries? Then the AC comes? Then again, just don’t think he is speaking of American Presidents here. But who knows. There were two Bush’s in office right? Makes ya wonder. And God does have a sense of humor. AT THE LAST TRUMP?

        • Di

          possible, but so far, trump seems ok, although his opposition misquotes him constantly, including their news friends

          wait and see if obama really leaves office first….I think he is planning something.. he does not want to go to jail for treason when trump gets in…if he stays in, watch what he does next

          I do agree that trump or no trump, things a…re getting close

        • Di,
          No,Trump isn’t the anti-christ. The trump’s come from God, and they are judgments on the people swinging the swords.

    • has any one ever considered DUbai to be this new city (the new babalon). the most memiroble thing to me about babalon was the tower that was built so high that broke it down and defiled them in language. Recently they have completed building the tallest building in the world. Also the UAE (united Arabe emerates) has SEVEN emerates (maybe these are the hills). It also says that the beast comes from the water/ocean. i have been to dubai may times and can tell you that they love to build everything in the water. Look up the 3 PAlm islands and the world project. each are large enough to see from outer space individually. there are currently 22 nations inn the islam union. i believe that these countries will consolidate into only 10 afetr all these riots are finished. what do you think of that. also the new babalon has to has a ship port in it. Next to dubai is jebel ali that is the largest lord to be built from the water. there has to be a ship port to fulfill the proficy about the sailers loking at the port after the earthquake in its ruins.

    • first of all the the great city that sits upon many waters, or the whore “revelations ch 17 verse 15 ” says the waters: are peoples and multitudes and nations and different languages mostly likely not refering to seas or oceans becuase it says that clearly. Also its sits on 7 mountains so does rome italy but there are also many other citys that sit on 7 mountains or hills but not like rome, beacuse it fits the descrition such as it was deck with gold and pearls arrayed in purple and scarlet . but look inside rome the CAtholic church! Which people call the popes holy father or Most holy father i belive and only God the Father has the title. Again their are seven kings revelations says. not unto 1929 the lateran treaty was signed and basicly made the pope a King “Pius XI” now we are on the seventh pope the seventh king Benedict XVI thats if it is the Catholic church in rome itlay which i believe it is again because it fit the descpition. Whats interesting look up the next prophecy for the next pope. But what matters most that we fear God and keep his commandments for that is the whole duty of man. “Ecclesiastes ch 12 verse 13” The Kingdom of God is near repent and sin no more convert .

      • Maybe, it is the 10 economic regions from the GATT Treaty. Three torn from it’s roots would give us 7. If seven economic regions ruled by 10 kings who give thier power to the beast for one hour is the GATT Treaty, then the Whore is the false New Age religion lead by the Universal Church, which states all religions can make it to Heaven.

        We see region 4 being formed in the middle east. Egypt, North Africa, and Libya has fallen. Syria appears to be next. Will Syria destroy it’self with BIO/CHEM weapons. The Bible reads Damascus will be a ruined heap.

        The beast my rule from Rome, but the New World Order sits on many waters. The Global Tower of Babel.

      • interesting where 7 popes = 7 kings

      • The prophecy for the next pope (according to St. Malachy) is that he will be the last pope and will reign during the great tribulation. Then the end will come and Rome will be destroyed.
        This fits Revelation perfectly. A revived Holy Roman Empire will be the 8th king – the one that will be hated and destroyed in the end. Babylon represents paganism in God’s church. God will destroy all that when he cleanses the churches before the true church becomes the bride of Christ. That is the underlying message of the Book of Revelation. No matter what you think Babylon might be, you have to believe that Jesus will not allow His church to break the commandments or to celebrate pagan holidays and practices. Keep that in mind when you try to interpret the Book of Revelation and it might throw it into a whole new light.
        Bless…

    • The woman does indeed represent the Roman church, Ask yourself what colours do the cardinals and priest wear? Which church persecuted Christians in the dark ages? The roman church is know for its wealth thus fitting the description in Rev 17:14. The following clip is a great insight.

    • Just my 2 cents.
      Rev. 2:12 And to the angel of the church of Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
      Rev. 2:13 I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is.

      Bergama, Pergamos, and Istanbul, Turkey are all the same.

      However there is a woman, an evil woman, in Zechariah 5 who gets carried off to Shinar by two other women with wind under their wings.
      Zechariah 5:10 “Then said I to the angel that talked with me, whither do these bear the ephah? (the woman is inside the basket/ephah) 11 And he said to me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established and set there upon her own base.”

      Three world religions, 2 are good, 1 is evil and set on its own base. Earlier in that same chapter even her scroll is a curse. It’s very legalistic.

      If you back up to the previous chapter, Zech. 4:11+12 the olives and the candlesticks pour golden oil out of their golden pipes.

      “It’s not by might , not by power but by my spirit says the Lord.” Zech. 4:6

    • The iron and the clay of Daniel’s statue are a reference to the Hittites. Where was the Hittite capital? Turkey. Byzantium / Constantinople / Istanbul was the nexus for wealth, religion, and progressive thought for 10 centuries before being overrun by the Ottomans. The false mystery religion (worship of Mary / Ashteroth) was transferred there from Rome by Constantine and influenced every part of the world. Byzantium being the melting point of all nations and peoples. It was also the center of trade by both land and sea and is regarded by today’s muslims and the prophesied location of the future Caliph.

    • I agree with you that “The woman is a city that represents the false religious system” But I do not feel it is JUST Islam but ALL the false “religions’ of the world. And all the false systems of the world. The pattern of the world that is established contrary to the word of God.

      The 7 hills all encompass the false religious/economic/educational systems of the day.

      It is a system of beliefs built upon ALL lies.That “woman” scripture discusses is the “bad” woman. The false religious church or system of belief, if you will.

      Everything that is false and contrary to the truth of God.

      the “good” woman is the “church” or “called out ones” the TRUE ekklesia who have been “born from above” having experienced the “new birth’ and have had the holy seed emplanted in them via the Holy Spirit. In other words, the “born again’ ones.

      They, the called out ones, reject ALL false systems and beliefs that try to establish themselves above the TRUTH of God.

      It’s a battle between those who love the truth and those who love the lie and it will finally culminate in the final battle pitting the armies of the Antichrist/Beast against the armies of the Most High God. God wins of course.

  2. Amazing article, thanks.

  3. Thank you for visiting.

  4. I have been doing an indepth study on this very thing! I just love confirmation. They only way I found your site was a quickie search on mosque on the seven hills. You are very much on target.

    You can contact me at my site and we can compare some notes I have some other good nuggets maybe we can swap some notes. Good to see someone else using discernment when it comes to the study. We are working on putting a presentation together about this subject and just what role Turkey is going to play.

    Keep Looking up

    Christine

  5. Hi Christine !

    Awesome ! A kindred spirit !

    what kind of notes do you have?

    God bless you
    marianne

  6. What is more important is the description of the Harlot who rides the beast. I suggest that everyone studies her attributes and you will soon come to the realization that she is the USA. Very disturbing. We need to pray and be ready. Also, don’t be fooled by the Pre-tribers. Te Church taught that we would go through the tribulation. It was not until the late 1800s that the idea of Pre-trib came into existance. This correlates with the time of the latter rain/hyper pentacostal/WoF movement. Follow the real Jesus and prepare.

    Kyle

    • Yes it could be with what we did to the Indians but she sits with a scarlet robe the Color red there is no other country who use red like the Pope and cardinals do

    • I agree, one should absolutely solidify their faith in Jesus Christ and perhaps rather than trying to interpret revelations simply accept that the Whore or Harlot or babylon will simply be the NWO and their mark of the beast (666) RFID Chips. It certainly appears that the USA is leading in the drive to have people accept the chip implants and will look to spread this globally. It was a pretty clear warning from Apostle John that all will be forced to accept the mark – all that reject Christ that is.

    • Not true, Kyle – ever heard of Ephraem the Syrian? (306-373 AD)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephrem_the_Syrian

      He was a major theologian in the early Byzantine Eastern Church – his hyms & homilies are still used in the Greek Orthodox & Middle Eastern Nestorian Churches.

      He taught a pre-trib rapture! There is some dispute over whether Ephraem himself taught it, or a later disciple writing in his name, but even taking the latest date it shows there was a rapture theory at least as early as the 8th century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Pseudo-Ephraem

      Also, Dr. John Gill taught the Rapture in his commentary on the New Testament, published in 1748, still far earlier than Ben Ezra in 1812, Edward Irving in 1816, Darby in 1820, or Margaret Macdonald in 1830, who are commonly supposed to have been the ones to first teach the Rapture theory, The fact is that many scriptures can be interpreted to teach the Rapture: Isaiah 26: 20-21, Jeremiah 30:71, Matthew 24:38-41, Luke 21:28 and 34-36, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, Revelation 3:10, among others.

      No doubt Matthew 24: 30-31 does not refer to the Rapture, because it speaks of the angels gathering the elect after the Tribulation, but this doesn’t necessarily argue against the Rapture theory, because that theory teaches that many will be saved after the Rapture, and also that there are many Jews saved during the Tribulation, as well as the Jewish Witnesses – these can easily be the elect those verses refer to.

  7. Thank you Kyle for your input.

    This is one theory that is out there. I presented it because it has been the least presented, due to fear of Muslim retaliation. I have heard the USA, Rome, Islam, and even Jerusalem as the woman. I guess time will tell. Yes, we all need to pray, because when things climax, there will be trouble for everyone.

  8. What is important is the fact that in the 15 and 1600s this idea of Rome was popular. The reason was obvious. At that time the Catholic Church had such great power. Now however they couldn’t dictate authority on this planet anymore than the Daili Lahma or some Grand Mufti. They are a mere large organized religeon that’s all. But look at the picture of the woman that rides the beast and notice her attributes.

    Kyle

  9. Kyle,

    The women sits on 7 hills. How do you see USA fitting into this 7 hills? what in the USA would match this description? People usually think of NYC, or Washington DC, as representing the USA, but neither, that I know of, sits on 7 hills.

    marianne

  10. If the woman is not Rome then how do you interpret Daniel chapters 2 and 7? What is the fourth empire of Daniel chapters 2 and 7 (4 beasts) if it is not the Roman empire? Daniel chapter 8 gives us 2 (not 3) beasts and their identities : Medo-Persia and Greece. Those 2 beast-empires followed the Babylonian beast-empire (lion with eagles wings) which leaves just one beast. The fourth beast must represent the Roman empire which followed the Greek empire founded by Alexander. God set up His kingdom in the days of the ROMAN kings (Daniel 2:44; Mark 1:15). Daniel and Revelation go together. The capital of the fourth empire, the Roman empire, was Rome. The city that ruled the kings of the earth in the days of the apostle John was Rome. The man-child of Revelation chapter 12 who ascended into heaven was the Lord Jesus Christ so that tells us that the dragon (7 crowned heads) represents the Roman empire in its first form ruled by Caesar (Rome was dominant – 7 crowns on the seven hills) while the beast of chapter 13 (7 heads without crowns – Rome’s power has changed + the papacy, a horn unlike the other 10 horns, is not a true king – while the kings of Europe had crowns) represents the Holy Roman empire which followed after the Gothic invasions (the “sword” which gave a mortal wound to the “head” which represented Rome’s Caesar) which put an end to the old Roman empire (the Western portion of it which contained Rome). The legs and the feet (2 forms of the last empire) of the statue of Daniel chapter 2 are directly joined together (and not separated by a large air gap) which indicates continuity in time. I have PowerPoint files on my blog which deal with the MYSTERY of iniquity (by the way, how is Islam a MYSTERY to a believer? it is obvious iniquity to me because it denies the deity of Christ) and the identification of the son of perdition. The MYSTERY of iniquity must fit with MYSTERY Babylon. I encourage anyone with a noble Berean attitude (Acts 17:11) to meditate upon those things.
    In Christ Jesus,
    Marcel A.
    http://prophecytruth.wordpress.com

  11. Hi Marcel,

    Thank you for your comment.

    Remember the city (7 hills) and the beast are related. The beast is a mixed animal. Look at what animal types it is made of. That gives the hint as to which kingdom it is. Also look at revelation 13 to get a complete view.

    The beast is one for the end times, not for 2000 years ago. To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. I do not believe it is Rome, because the Papacy does not have the power it used to over governments.

    Maybe I should have provided a link to the “beast page.” I made a correction above to make it more clear. All debate is welcome. I just present my views, with the supporting documentation.

    I was just trying to break it down in smaller posts for easier reading.

    To understand who the woman is, you first have to prove who the beast is. See The Fouth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist of Islam – the 12th Imam Mahdi Click here for more

    The Fourth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist of Islam – the 12th Imam Mahdi

    BTW, there is nothing mysterious about the Catholic church either.

    Let me know if this extra link clears things up.

    Maybe I am right. Maybe I am wrong.

    God bless you

    marianne

  12. Hello Marianne!
    I thank you for taking the time to look at my comment and to also respond. I hope that in my zeal to give what I believe is a right interpretation of Scripture that I will not offend you in any way. I thought I would first comment about the following statement you made:

    You wrote: “BTW, there is nothing mysterious about the Catholic church either.”

    Question : If Roman Catholicism isn’t mysterious according to you then why are so many so-called (Matthew 7:21) evangelical Christian leaders such as Billy Graham, Franklin Graham, J. I. Packer, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe, Pat Robertson, Robert Schuller, Chuck Colson, George Bush, Paul Crouch, etc… and many others being fooled by it?

    The Roman Catholic Church is not a true Christian church. It promotes a false gospel and a false Christ who didn’t fulfill His mission of securing the salvation of His sheep (Hebrews 10:12,14) through their false, unbiblical and blasphemous doctrine of the repetitive sacrifice of the Mass. I am a former Roman Catholic. As a Catholic wrestling with Revelation chapter 17, I was led to pray to God for wisdom (James 1:5) in understanding the identity of the Whore and a few days later (3 days to be exact) it became clear to me that day that I was in the Whore church having thought all my life I was in the true Christian church. The realization led to my renouncing my Catholic faith and then searching for the Gospel and truly repenting of my sins by the grace of the Holy Spirit who opened my eyes. I then experienced a peace I had never felt before and things changed in my life. The more I have studied the symbolic language used in both the Old and New Testament, both inspired by the Holy Spirit, the more it has become obvious to me that the corrupt woman symbol (in contrast with the bride of Christ, a chaste woman) points to APOSTATE professing Christianity and not to atheism or Islam or any other ISM out there. If the pure woman of Revelation 19 represents the Church (true people of God; Invisible Church; Mystical Body of Christ) then what does a corrupt woman represent symbolically? Please read Isaiah chapter 1 and notice how the professing apostate people of God (Israel) represented by the city Jerusalem were associated with harlotly. Hosea, a contemporay of Isaiah, used the same symbolism. Isn’t it interesting that in Revelation chapter 18, verse 4, we see the term “MY PEOPLE” used in reference to a certain group within Mystery Babylon? Didn’t God in the Old Testament also call APOSTATE Israel MY PEOPLE (in the professing sense)?

    To understand the MYSTERY of INIQUITY – in other words, iniquity in the eyes of the elect which does not appear as iniquity to the non-elect – one must understand the characteristics of the son of perdition. In 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, the son of perdition is mentioned in connection with the mystery of iniquity. The two go together. The son of perdition is a term which only appears one other time in the New Testament. John chapter 17* written by the author of the Book of Revelation. In that chapter, Christ acting as the High PRIEST Mediator of His elect (intercessory prayer) called Judas Iscariot – a FALSE APOSTLE, FALSE CHRISTIAN and FALSE CHURCH LEADER – the “son of perdition”. That’s a major clue in understanding who the AntiChrist (other name for the son of perdition) is. AntiChrist would arise out of professing Christianity. Judas was a deceiver who called Christ “Master”. Judas was an apostate. Judas coveted money. Judas conspired against Christ with a CORRUPT PRIESTHOOD class who offered REPETITIVE SACRIFICES that could not take away sins. Judas was a false apostle. (The pope claims apostolic succession.) Judas fooled the other apostles for a time. He appeared pious. He preached the Gospel for a time. In the Scriptures, it is never recorded that Judas outwardly said anything bad about Christ. In fact, after betraying Christ, he called him innocent.

    * It’s very interesting to note that in an adjacent verse there appears the term “Holy Father”, a term used only once in all the New Testament and it refers to God the Father; it is just a coincidence that the Holy Spirit would have those two rare New Testament terms, “son of perdition” and “holy Father”, appearing very close together in adjacent verses? In the eyes of the non-elect, the pope is known as “holy father” but in reality each pope is “the son of perdition”

    How does the “son of perdition” fit in with Islam? The mystery of iniquity is mysterious because it appears Christian and pious (1st Timothy 4:1-3 gives us some characteristics of this false showy piety – imposed celibacy for church leaders and imposed asceticism – and these characteristics are associated with Roman Catholicism historically). John, the author of Revelation, wrote about antichrists in his first epistle : “…even now are there many antichrists… They (antichrists) WENT OUT FROM US (professing Christians), but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued WITH US: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all OF US.” (1st John 2:18-19) That is a major clue which tells us that we are to look for the AntiChrist to come (or should I say the AntiChrist who has already come and has been around for centuries if the historic Baptist-Protestant view of AntiChrist is correct also shared by many Spirit-filled martyrs) amongst professing Christians. The antichrists that John mentioned in his first epistle were apostate Christians. Not Pagans. Not atheists. Not Buddhists. Apostate Christians.

    Now that being said I hope to reply to the rest in due time God willing.

    Take care!
    In Christ Jesus,
    Marcel Allain
    http://prophecytruth.wordpress.com

  13. Elecsoul

    Hey…I am so busy…hold on….you have a long post….!!!!!

    maybe I should give you your own page !! 🙂

    alternate views of ……who is the woman……

  14. Electsoul

    Most of Christianity is apostate now. So singling out the catholics as the ONLY Whore does not make sense. I understand that for a long time, the Catholic church controlled Europe, but that has changed. Europe is mostly atheist now.

    Yes, Israel was called a harlot, and so can the modern church. Babylon was also called a whore holding a cup, which matches the description in the old testament. (Jeremiah, I think.)

    mystery – fooling people – is not limited to just Christianity. – right now Islam is killing people and saying they come in peace, and people actually believe them. Think of the white horse in revelation. the rider comes to conquer, but says he comes in peace.

    son of perdition – judas….true…..but Jesus also called peter Satan, and to get behind him….anyone can be antichrist in spirit and Jesus said there would be many of them

    the antichrist is the beast

    the woman rides the beast, so they are connected. She rules over the beast, since that is what a rider does.

    the beast in daniel + revelation = ancient grecian empire ( + teeth of rome – turkey is also part of roman empire), which ends up in the middle east. Many think it is the revived roman because of daniel 2.

    But Daniel 7 and 9, and rev13 make it more clear. Daniel also says it is a kingdom, (not a democracy), which has a history of 7 kings, and the 8th is coming.

    The selucid empire matches this description and sends us back to the original Babylon. Babylon represented the empire, which is now modern Iraq, syria, lebanon, etc which are both ancient and modern enemies of ISrael.

    the catholic church has no control over the middle eastern muslim beast, but a Muslim city would, from that region.

    So i feel that rome as the city is an old interpretation, based on past, but not current history. the catholics do not have the power they used to have. many have left the church.

    the new force to be dealt with is islam, which is invading all the countries around the world, for conquest, but claim it is coming in peace.

    marianne

  15. I think you might be on to something here regarding Istanbul. However, I believe the Woman is the US for these reasons:

    She is called the “jewel of kingdoms”. (Is. 13:19)
    In her glory days, she “layed low the nations”. (Is. 14:12)
    She has “destroyed her land and killed her people”. (Is. 14:20)
    She is called “queen of kingdoms”. (Is. 47: 5)
    She will become the “least of the nations”. (Jer. 50:12)
    She has granaries. (Jer. 50:26)
    She has bulls. (Jer. 50:27)
    She has bodies of water. (Jer. 50:38)
    She is a land, not just a city. (Jer. 50:45)
    When she is captured, the whole earth will tremble. (Jer. 50:46)
    She has an army. (Jer. 51:3)
    She is surrounded by many waters. (Jer 51:13)
    She brings destruction throughout the whole earth. (Jer. 51:25)
    She has rivers and marshes. (Jer. 51:32)
    She is the boast of the whole earth. (Jer. 51: 41)
    She has towns. (Jer. 50:32, 51:3)
    She has had illicit affairs with the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:2)
    She is greatest among all people, multitudes, nations and languages. (Rev. 17:1, 15)
    She has power over the kings of the earth. (Rev. 17:18)
    The merchants of the earth have become rich because of her excessive consumption. (Rev. 18:3, 15, 17)
    She considers herself the queen of the earth. (Rev. 18:7)
    The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn when she is destroyed because no one will buy their cargos anymore. (Rev. 18:11)
    She is considered the greatest “city” that ever was. (Rev. 18:17)
    Her “enchantment” led all nations astray. (Rev. 18:23)

    Some of these things do fit Islam and some of them don’t. However, they ALL fit the United States!

    • Sorry, but a woman in prophesy is always a church. The US is a kingdom (a beast) – not a church. Only the Holy Roman Empire was a church and an empire. So don’t worry, God will not destroy the US when he returns. He will destroy the pagan (Babylonian) influences in the Christian church(es) such as SUNday worship, idols (statues), Christmas and other pagan elements that have crept into Christianity today. The church will most likely return to the same state as it was when Christ left. Most of the rest is superfluous crap.

      • Who is the god of the Church. Recent discussion in Finland proves that the governing god is Mammon. Like everywhere in the world gays are lifted higher than anybody else and discussion has been whether gay couples should be blessed by the Church similarly like traditional marriage.
        One group started talking strongly against it. Prime speaker, former lesbian, became then born again and declared that with help of the Lord everybody can get rid of this sin. Gays and humanists got angry and more than 100000 people left the Church thus giving up tax payments. In Finland the state collects taxes for the Lutheran Church it being a state church.
        Money disappeared. Archbishop woke up. “This kind of group can never get any church money” He also stated that he supports similar marriage for gays and in a minimum church should bless such couples.
        The word of Mammon has replaced the Word of God (Romans chapter 1) and demands to bless the sin.
        The Church is not just some administrative organ on the top but the members of the church form the church.

        • Seppo
          That is the problem with mixing church and state. State religion always leads to corruption, your example shows how state corrupts religion, The catholic church showing how religion corrupts the state. It is only Jesus who can and will rule both justly and righteously. This is one of the reasons why my parents left Finland. The question you need to ask is how far will they compromise on their faith in the name of keeping their funding?

  16. And the US does sit on 7 hills in the sense that her culture is founded upon Greco-Roman model. For one example, the Greco-Romans believed:

    • Citizens should participate in government by voting, debating in public, making laws, serving on juries, and holding office.
    • The world has natural laws—patterns that can be discovered through reason and intellect, rather than superstition.
    • Democracy can be protected by having branches of government:
    a legislative branch to make laws, an executive branch to approve laws, a judicial branch to resolve legal disputes.
    • There should be written law.

  17. Hi Gina

    Well, the idea that the woman is the USA is definitely a popular view, with reasons like what you gave. Sometimes I will give an alternative view, to make people think. For example, if one view says the sky is red, with reasons, then I will say it is green, with reasons. (Notice I did not say the sky is blue! 🙂 ) Then I let people think about both views. There is a lot in the Word of God to think about.

    Have a blessed day
    marianne

  18. HI–HAS ANYONE NOTICED THAT THE NAMES OF THE MOSQUES ARE “MABNS”–ALMOST THE SAME AS NOSTRADAMUS’ “MABUS”? THE NAME OF THE NURUOSMANIYE MOSQUE MEANS “LIGHT OF USMAN” PER AOL–THE MISSING LETTER “U” !!!!! INTERESTING—

  19. Hi Weegie,

    Maybe MABUS is the first intiial and last name of the leader.

    Mohammed Abus, or M…ABUS….is the head of the PLO terrorist group now in Israel, now that Arafat is dead.

    He is also known as Abu Mazen and Muhammad Abbas. I am not sure which name is his real name.

    or maybe MABUS is a group of countries that bring forth the antichrist. Example:

    M = Malaysia
    A= Azerbaijan
    B = Bangladesh
    U = United Arab Emirates
    S = Saudi Arabia, or Syria

    I guess we will find out someday soon.

    blessings
    marianne

    • Where does it say we should raise Nostradamus to the level of Biblical prophet? Don’t sweat MABUS.

      • Well the interesting thing is that Nostradamus used a lot of Biblical writing and had his own phophetic beliefs of the 3rd World War as well

  20. Jesus was not crucified in Greece- Turkey but in Jerusalem.

  21. Hi Rodney,

    you said

    Jesus was not crucified in Greece- Turkey but in Jerusalem.

    Can you explain why you said that? The prophecy is about the woman that sits on 7 hills for the last days and how she relates to the anti Christ. What would the crucifixion of Jesus have to do with this? Is there somewhere that says the woman and the beast will be in Jerusalem, because Jesus was crucified there.?

    blessings
    marianne

  22. I think Gina is definitely right. Rev 17 and 18 is happening right before our eyes!!!! Why can’t we humble ourselves and look at ourselves before we point the finger at other nations? It seems SO clear to me that the Woman is the U.S. Think of the Statue of Liberty, riding on the Beast (the U.N. Headquarters). Sept 11, 2001 as well as Sept-Oct 2008.

    The ONLY way to solve the current economic crisis is to pronounce a Year of Jubilee as outlined in Leviticus. But the U.S. govt would never go for that. Why do we even have “In God we Trust” on our money? What hypocrisy! The Jubilee is meant for the purpose of what we are going through right now – so that we do not take advantage of one another. Yet we continue to do so. Shame!

  23. By the way, Washington DC has 7 hills. You would never find that on a google search, of course. Someone is HIDING that fact. But look at a google MAP of DC and count how many hills or “heights” there are within the ring road that defines the city!

    • I would like to see map Etc. real proof. I support your idea 100%
      Always point your finger at the Catholic and if a Spacecraft lands in the middle of the street blame the Catholic and tell lies to everyone to prove to them it is the Cathokic Church why look anywhere else.

      • hi Heidi

        Actually, this is NOT pointing to the Catholic Church.

        This is an argument against that, and a suggestion that it might actually be in Turkey.

    • Actually, I believe their are many possibilities. Sure they say America, but their so economically unstable. I was thinking more Russia since Putin wanted it to become again another super World Power and has his successor Dmitry Medvedev in whom shares his ideals. Another idea is what if the middle east suddnely put all their political country problems aside and became one Islamic united nations.

  24. Hi Girlparadox

    You hold a popular view. Maybe you are right. But

    1. how could washington ride the middle eastern beast unless it was also middle eastern? Will terrorists get elected here?

    2. I have google earth, and I cannot see any 7 hills. so where are the hills?

    I agree with going back to Jewish roots of the faith, but that will not be possible, since God is illegal in this country. All we can do is pray and give good witness now.

    I appreciate your heart for what is good. Just pray you can affect as many as possible before Jesus comes back.

    blessings
    marianne

  25. Dissillusioned soldiers come home from a war,
    Sarcastic friends tell them not to fight no more.
    As they argue through the day, all their words get in the way,
    Black and white, turning into shades of grey.

  26. Glenn

    Profound words in a short verse.

    blessings
    marianne

  27. I believe the woman sitting on the seven hills is a depiction of Rome. Traditionally, Rome was called the ‘city of the seven hills’ because of the seven hills that it was built on/ around. Also, a Roman coin has recently been found that was minted during the reign of Vespasian (69AD – 79AD). This coin has a depiction of Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills. The early Christians living in this time period surely were aware of the current currency (and other things going on in their world at the time), so when they read John’s letter (the book of Revelation) they knew what God meant in this revelation: Rome is the bad guy because it was persecuting the baby church. The church that Jesus came to earth to establish (His kingdom on earth). Furthermore, this letter gave these poor Christians hope and comfort, their persecutor (Rome) would be punished by God. A careful study of history (and other ‘symbolic’ language in the Bible) will indeed prove that Revelation was written for the benefit of the Christians in that time period. (What use did they have for this letter that John wrote and AND SENT TO THEM when it didn’t even have any relevance to them?) I would encourage anyone and everyone to look more into the true meaning of Revelation, our society has grossly mangled the sweet and true message of God’s love and comfort to His people when they were facing hard times. http://www.thywordistruth.com has an excellent commentary on the book of Revelation. It is a good start to discovering God’s truth on this subject, it has certainly opened my eyes!

  28. Hi Pam,

    I acknowledge that it can still be Rome. Since the revelation was for the end times also, I do not see Rome as the one persecuting the saints, but Islam instead. So that is why I came to this conclusion.

    blessings
    marianne

    • The Roman church has already persecuted the Saints – ever hear of the inquisition? Millions were killed after the council of Laeodecea transferred the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. It took 200 years to complete the transformation. And revelation speaks of these already-martyred people). If Satan takes over the end-time one-world Christian church and if the mark of the beast is Sunday worship, there won’t be a lot of actual persecution since almost everyone will gladly accept the mark (while they anxiously await some sort of barcode system to reject).
      Remember, the Antichrist will mimic Christ, not be outwardly the opposite.

      • Actually, wasn’t just the Catholic’s that were Persecuting people by burning them at the stake, their was the Protestants and Calvanists burning people. Even at present time I still hear of burning home and people by Anti Christians in Islamic Countries and in India.

        • Actually, for a example Joan of Arc (The Maid of Orleans national heroine and Catholic Saint was tried under a Ecclesiastical Court which is a community, lawful assembly and legislative body of people with shared beliefs which were controled by french clerics who supported the English at a time when France and England were at war and disliked each other. Their’s a very political element to her death more than religious. Certain members used different Religion views to their benifit to bring on burning. It is very much a possibility of cooked up trail for the English to get rid of a French Enemy. The same thing would have happened if she were English captured by the French.

          • Further, we must remember when we bring Rome into the equation their is a big difference between Pagan Rome and Christian Rome.

  29. Well, what does the bible actually say in Revelation 17?
    15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

    Which city will the beast and his nation hate and invade, burn with fore and strip naked? Jerusalem. yes the antichrist will invade Jersualem. Revelation also calls this city Sodom and Egyot, where their Lord was crucified.

    The end times are about the antichrist invading Isreal and ruling form that city. He will stop the sacfrifices and proclaim himself God. In Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah and Hisea, Jerusalem is alled a harlot who will need to be invaded because of her rebellion. And what might that be? signing a peace treay and restarting sacrifices when God has given his only son…

  30. Hi Alan,

    I see where you are coming from, since Islam hates Israel.
    This person also agrees with you.

    http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p000201.htm

    My problem with that is that Jerusalem does not sit on many waters, does not represent “many peoples,” only Jews.

    Also, since the woman is also called Mystery Babylon, I do not see how Jerusalem fits the rest of the description.

    Babylon is still Babylon

    It does seem to present a “mystery.” Each view looks good, including mine, until someone points out some inconsistency. Maybe that is why it is a mystery – to keep us thinking.

    blessings
    marianne

    • You must understand that MYSTERY BABYLON refers to the ancient Babylon Mystery religion, a pagan abhorrent form of worship started by Nimrod, the founder of Babylon, and his wife Semiramis. Her son Tammuz, the false Christ was born on December 25 and his birthday was still celebrated (in a new way) by the Romans (Saturnalia), who forced the early Christians to adopt it as Christmas. Jesus will not be happy with any church who celebrates this day, and it is only one reason out of many dozens that the Whore (church) of Babylon will be destroyed. Almost no Christian church will not suffer some corrections at the second coming.
      I don’t believe God gives a rats ass about any religion other than his own. He won’t be coming to destroy Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism. He’s coming for US!

  31. Hi Maianne,
    One of the most interesting parts of Rev 17 is verses 8 to 10.
    It cannot represent the Roman Empire, as it was in existence when John wrote Revelation!
    Verse 8 states, “The beast you saw once was, now is not and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction”
    I can’t help but think there is a link between this and Daniel Chapter 4, regarding Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of a tree.
    The tree is cut down, but as verse 15 says,”But let the stump and it’s roots be bound with iron and bronze, and remain in the ground, in the grass of the field”
    Three Kingdoms, though cut down will continue.The Kingdom of Gold,Bronze and Iron!………..Babylonian, Greek and Roman.?
    They will re-appear with another face?
    I need some help here!

    • Your confusion comes from the fact that John was not in ancient Rome when he was given the visions. He was in our time, probably watching CNN. When reading Revelation you must be mindful of where in time John is when he is writing the verse(s). It can get confusing for sure.

  32. Hi Glenn,

    Remember those ancient empires territories overlapped a lot. So it is possible for one country to be under more than one empire.

    I think the final empire is a “mix” of identities….like you said.

    That is what I am saying here:

    Antichrist – who is he? – the secret is in the “mix”

    blessings
    marianne

  33. There can be no doubt that america is the country Referred to as Babylon in the end times in the bible. America fits the discription of this country far better than anyone else. America is the greatest super power the would has ever seen. It is the greatest importer in the world. It imports far more than it exports. With out american imports many countries would go broke. So when the bible talks about the anti-christ u can b sure that its talking about the president of the U.S.A. Since the bible says that the anti-christ will become its ruler. Also there r many conspiracy theories about the american pres.(Barack Obama) being the anti-christ. In order to beleave that u would first have to beleave that america is the country referred to as Babylon in the bible. In both Rev. 17:10 and Daniel 11:20 it says that the person who is king (or in this case president) just before the anti-christ comes to power of this prophetic Babylon will die after only a few days in office. So now your probably wondering who that guy is? Well i’am glade u asked! It says in Rev. 17:10 that there r 7 kings 5 r fallen, 1 is, and the last has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain a short while. In 2004 i was watching the news and they said that there were 5 former presidents still alive at that point in time. they were Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton. Thats when i figered out what the bible meant in Rev. 17:10 when it spoke of 7 kings. All 7 of them were alive at that point in time. And it referred to Geoge W. Bush as king #6 in the “present tense”, who at that point in time was involved in a war that he started in Iraq. I think this is close enough to an invasion of persia cause i think eastern Iraq used to be part of persia or at least part of the persian empire. Also this is the only time in history that 5 former pres. were all still alive at 1 time. I don’t care what anyone tells u! Pres. Barack Obama is not the anti-christ! The Bible clearly states that the man who occupies the leadership of this propheced Babylon before the coming of the anti-christ will die in office nethier in battle nor in anger. “The Catholic Living Bible” says in Daniel 11:20 that this will happen during a crisis. Which is where we r right now and its only getting worse every day, and its a threat to world pease and national security! According to this verse it sounds like this crisis will actually help the anti-christ to obtain power. This is all similar to how Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933 during the great depression after the death of Germany’s Chancellor. The Beast (anti-christ) is the 8th king, but is also 1 of the previous 7 kings. 2 of those 5 former pres. are dead now, and they died with out head wounds so they could not be the anti-christ! That leaves 4 possibilities. The Bible says that the anti-christ will be a piller of the church and also a famous peace maker. And through peace he shall destroy many! That’s clearly Jimmy Carter! No mater what anyone tells u about the anti-christ, remember the bible clearly states that the man who is king(or in this case pres.) before the anti-christ takes office will die first, and this will be during a crisis. Then during this crisis will he obtain the throne through lies, deceit and false promises. Not only that but as it says in Dan. 11, “he is not in line to inherit the throne.” Which of course none of the former pres. are. But in this case because of this international crisis and some good lying and false promises he will manage.

    • Hi Jim,

      In America, if something happens to the President, the vice president takes over. How would that fit into your theory?

      blessings
      marianne

    • In Revelation, Babylon Mystery refers to an ancient religion from Babylon. It refers to an end-time pagan church, NOT a country or a city. It actually refers to all the pagan aspects of the original Christian church in Rome (it picked up many practices and holidays from the Romans). These practices and changes the church made over the centuries will be taken out and destroyed. God is mad at what man did to his church, not at some city or country, no how bad they have become.

    • Oh my gosh does this sound like TRUMP!!!!!

  34. Read the last paragraph! This will happen during a crisis.

    • But Carter is old and an idiot. Why would he be picked? Any why even a previous president? Carter, Clinton, both Bushes, have also been involved in the peace business.

  35. If the devil can bring the anti-chrit back to life it only stands to reason that he could make him youg again also! None of the other pres. are a piller of the church like Carter is and none have been involved in the peace process like Carter has been! Through peace he shall destroy many! A Bible quote!

    • Jim

      Ok. I guess we will see how things work out. If carter gets back in, I will buy you a pizza. 🙂

      By the way, I like your passion.

      blessings
      marianne

    • Sorry, but Carter will not live to be the Antichrist, nor could he fool many into believing he is Jesus Christ. It will take a much holier man than Carter to pull that off!

  36. Here is a twist!

    The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Protestantism – The Anglican Mother Queen – The Harlot), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (United States of America), which is a kingdom… The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

    Read 1st John 2:18-19 and John 6:66 to find out, and confirm, who the Antichrists really are. They have hidden well, haven’t they? The hide behind the name of Christ and even in the shape of a legitimate faith. However, they are the Harlot, the Beast, whose ultimate objective is to destroy us, the Catholic Church.

    Yes, there will be a time when all nations are deceived and will surround the Eternal City. They will kill the Pope, all the Cardinals and Bishops. Great persecution indeed. The continuous sacrifice, the one that Daniel talked about, will stop. The one that prevents will be taken away, as prophecies to the Thessalonians by saint Paul. Yes, he will be no more here on Earth. Christ in the Eucharist will no longer be amongst us. Then, on that terrible day, the Lord will come in Glory. The Second coming of Christ. And before his Glory, coming in the Clouds of Heaven, the Earth and Heavens will not be able to resist him. All will be consumed by Fire. We will all be before the Presence of the Lord. All eyes shall see him. Hades and the depths of the Earth, and the oceans, will return the death. All of us will be standing before the Throne of Justice in the Final Day of Judgment, which is the Second coming of Christ, and not the perversion Protestants have you believe.

    What do Protestant Evangelicals believe? That is, that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom. But by God, that has already happened 2000 years ago, as we Catholics know! Then, therefore, we must ask the question: Why would and why does Protestantism preach that Christ will come to Reign on the Earth for a thousand years, when that is already happening? Because Protestants are actually awaiting for Satan to be let out of the Abyss. They await for him, for he will deceive all nations to destroy the Catholic Church, the only Church of Christ. That, my brother, is the REAL PICTURE!

    By the way, the only and only Church of Christ is aware of it. We know…

    Cathechism

    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    ENCYCLICAL LETTER SPE SALVI
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

    DOMINUS IESUS
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    We pray so that you may be safe. Be careful, return to the House of the Father. If you are a captive of the Harlot, God will help you escape her deceptions and will set you free. If you are a John 6:66, then you will become a 1st John 2:18-19. Nevertheless, there is hope. I was captive in one of the Protestant sects and escaped. I returned to Him, the Mana that descended from Heaven, the word of God made Flesh.

    With my sincere love,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Hello Juan,

      I felt your pain as I read what you wrote. It is unfair to point a finger at any Christian, and declare him Antichrist. God looks at the heart, and its devotion, as well as godly behavior, not the denomination.

      With a false religious system like Islam staring us in the face, why is there even a reason to falsely accuse other Christians?

      One day, soon I hope, Jesus will return and make all things new again, defeat the false system, and make us a church without spot or wrinkle. Then, all false doctrines will be gone, and people will “see” the truth again. In the meantime, we have the Holy Spirit to guide us, and help us be the best we can be for God.

      • Marianne:

        According to the Sacred Scriptures, in the 1st Universal Epistle of John, chapter 2, verses 18 and 19, antichrists come from within us. An Antichrist is never born outside the Church; it is one that comes from within. A good example is Judas, the Apostle, one of the twelve, who became the Son of Perdition. Same thing happens to all the other Antichrists. They have to come from within the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church. According to Saint John’s first Epistle, one of the characteristic is that they [the antichrists] leave us, they depart from us, they break the communion. In other words, they were once amongst us and they left us. That is the way in which we can recognize them.

        Therefore, Muslims are not the Antichrists. The perfect candidates according to the words of Saint John in the First Universal Epistle confirm us with that teaching (1st John 2:18-19) are Protestants. Saint John the Apostle also confirms to us the reason why they leave us in the Gospel of John, chapter 6, verse 66 (John 6:66) –indeed, the number of the Beast, 666. You see, they leave us because antichrists DO NOT believe Christ is God made flesh. They do not believe either he is the Mana that descended from heaven. They scandalize when they hear that Christ becomes bread and wine (John 6:66). Why don’t they believe? If you think about it, it is as absurd to believe God’s word becomes flesh, as to believe Christ becomes bread and wine. In order to believe both things, the Father must reveal to you that HE is the Messiah, the Only Son of God, God himself, made flesh, and made bread and wine for us in the Eucharist. The father reveled that to Peter, as according to the Holy Scriptures.

        There you have it. If you are a “Christian” and you do not believe in the Eucharist, you are an antichrist. If you are a Catholic who does not believe, you will depart and leave us. You will no longer have communion with us. It is very simple: you betray Christ and turn against the Catholic Church. That is the same thing the Protestant Founders did. They betray the Church and started trashing her and accusing her, the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, for a reward of “30 silver coins.” Am I comparing Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Knox to Judas the traitor? Yes!

        Excerpt proving protestant founders attack the Catholic Church.

        Most Reformation writers and all Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon.[9][10] This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible.

        Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646. The identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon is kept in the Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified “ecclesiastical Babylon” with “apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy”) and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The “drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs,” by this interpretation, refers to the inquisition and the veneration of saints and relics and the Sunday sacredness, were viewed by Reformers as idolatry and apostasy.

        Excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

        God, have mercy on them. Let them escape the deceptive wine of the Whore of Babylon, the Protestant Churches, which is ruled by the Queen of England, the Apocalyptic Harlot.

        Sincerely,

        Juan Eduardo Alvear

        • Big Mistake their Juan Muslims do not believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God! Islam believes Jesus as a Prophet only! Hence, in the bible you must believe in Jesus as the son of God or you believe in him not and Islam doesn’t believe Christ is God, therefore they are Anti-Christ. However, Jews dont’ believe in Christ as God too as their still waiting for the Messiah to come.

        • Sorry, but breaking news for you is that protestants actually eat true Blood and Flesh, etc, they are called confessional lutherans, and are reformed catholic church in nature.

          • I never heard of them, but good to know this. most protestants take communion as symbolic

            • Protesting Churches are Pagan Trinitarian worshippers as the RCC, One of the children of the Mother of Harlots and no doubt believe in fallen angels which is absolutely blasphemy.

    • Juan I need help with my Baptis Sister I have been a Converted Catholic since 1980 e-mail me at MissHeidiMae@msn.com

    • Oh my…So much wrong with this.

    • The Catechism is in complete disagreement with the Holy Bible. Catholicism is a horrible misleading cult. Why is the road wide that leads to destruction? Because the Catholic Church is huge. And Satan is not in the Abyss. He is going later with his false prophet and the beast.

  37. Here is a twist!

    The woman is a city that represents the false religious system (Protestantism – The Anglican Mother Queen – The Harlot), centered in the 7 hill city…..who aligns with the beast (United States of America, Ancient Rome, or whatever nation ruling the world at a given time), which is a kingdom… The woman is called Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.” (Rev. 17:5.) The woman riding on the beast is the mother. The heads of the beast are her offspring (harlots).

    Read 1st John 2:18-19 and John 6:66 to find out, and confirm, who the Antichrists really are. They have hidden well, haven’t they? The hide behind the name of Christ and even in the shape of a legitimate faith. However, they are the Harlot, the Beast, whose ultimate objective is to destroy us, the Catholic Church.

    Yes, there will be a time when all nations are deceived and will surround the Eternal City. They will kill the Pope, all the Cardinals and Bishops. Great persecution indeed. The continuous sacrifice, the one that Daniel the Great Prophet talked about, will stop. The one that prevents the manifestation of the SON OF INIQUITY, will be taken away –as prophesied to the Thessalonians by saint Paul. Yes, he will be no more here on Earth. Christ in the Eucharist will no longer be amongst us. Then, on that terrible day, the Lord will come in Glory. The Second Coming of Christ will take place. And before his Glorious Coming, when he comes in the Clouds of Heaven, the Earth and Heavens will not be able to resist him. All will be consumed by Fire. We will all be before the Presence of the Lord. All eyes shall see him. Hades and the depths of the Earth, and the oceans, Death itself, will return all the dead. Resurrection Day! All of us will be standing before the Throne of God in the Final Day of Judgment, which is the Second Coming of Christ –and not the perversion Protestants have you believe as their Second Coming.

    What do Protestant Evangelicals believe? That is, that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom. Yet we say: “But by God, that has already happened 2000 years ago, as we Catholics know!” Then, therefore, we must ask the question: Why would and why does Protestantism preach that Christ will come to Reign on the Earth for a thousand years, when that is already happening? Because Protestants are actually awaiting for Satan to be let out of the Abyss (that is their Second Coming of Christ). They await for him, for he will deceive all nations to destroy the Catholic Church, the only Church of Christ. That, my brother, is the REAL PICTURE!

    By the way, the only and only Church of Christ is aware of it. We know…

    Cathechism
    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577 http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    ENCYCLICAL LETTER SPE SALVI
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

    DOMINUS IESUS
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    We pray so that you may be safe. Be careful, return to the House of the Father. If you are a captive of the Harlot, God will help you escape her deceptions and will set you free. If you are a John 6:66, then you will become a 1st John 2:18-19. Nevertheless, there is hope. I was captive in one of the Protestant sects and escaped. I returned to Him, the Mana that descended from Heaven, the word of God made Flesh.

    With my sincere love,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Go back to square one – a woman in prophesy represents a church, not a city or country – that would be a “beast.” (See Daniel for that definition).

  38. Protestantism is the real enemy of Western Civilization.

    First of all, Protestantism is born as an antagonistic movement. That is, is a movement whose stand is to claim the Catholic Church is a Satanic Church, inspired by Satan to corrupt all the nations of the world. Thus, Protestant Founders have regarded Catholics as the Whore of Babylon, which is a prophetic depiction in the Book of Revelation of a Nation that corrupts all other nations with its evil manipulations. In brief, Protestantism teaches discrimination against Catholics as a core value of their teachings. However, that hatred towards Catholics is disguised as a benevolent tolerance towards illiterate idol worshipers who are deceived by a satanic cult called the Whore of Babylon. To put it bluntly: Protestants refer to Catholics as retarded sons-of-bitches.

    Most Reformation writers and all Reformers themselves, from Martin Luther (who wrote On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin, and John Knox (who wrote The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstrous Regiment of Women) identify the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon.[9][10] This opinion influenced several generations in England and Scotland when it was put into the 1599 edition of the Geneva Bible.

    Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646. The identification of the Roman Catholic Church with the Whore of Babylon is kept in the Scofield Reference Bible (whose 1917 edition identified “ecclesiastical Babylon” with “apostate Christendom headed by the Papacy”) and pro-Reformation writings such as those of I.M. Haldeman, and it is kept alive by contemporary figures such as Ian Paisley and Jack Chick. The “drunkenness with the blood of saints and martyrs,” by this interpretation, refers to the inquisition and the veneration of saints and relics and the Sunday sacredness, were viewed by Reformers as idolatry and apostasy.

    Excerpt: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whore_of_Babylon

    Second of all. Protestantism is never recognized as a Church by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church clearly states through the Magisterium and the Pope, that there is only one Church. Then Cardinal Ratzinger and Pope John Paul II signed a document called Dominus Iesus in 1999 reinstating those teachings. Thus it states that Protestants are not in full Harmony and communion with the Only Church of Christ. Read it for yourself:

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    Third of all. Protestantism teaches what is regarded as an intrinsic perversion, driven by politics, when it states that Christ will come to Reign in Jerusalem for one thousand years. That Protestant Millennialism undermines the current Establishment of the Kingdom of Christ in the Catholic Church, and promotes a perverse form of secularized Messianism. Paragraph 676 of Catechism.

    676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.577
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    I am going to be very blunt and say it: The USA is NOT the messianic Kingdom of Christ where Jesus will rule for a Millennia, as WASP Protestantism claims with the New World Order and other similar fantasies. Actually, The Catholic Church is that Millennial Kingdom, and we have been ruling the Earth with Iron Scepter, with the Messiah, since the Millennia started, 2000 ago. By Eduardo Alvear

    Fourth of all. Protestantism has a flawed economic business model which is inspired in John Calvin, also called Protestant Calvinism. Calvinists, in its view of wealth and riches, proclaims that those persons with money are blessed by God, and those without money, are not blessed by God. Thus, in order to protect those that are “blessed” (in their own clan), it promotes nepotism, and it also brakes the root of all ethical and moral principles by stating that THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS in order to make wealth. Simplifying, it states that in the name of making wealth, you have license to kill and do whatever you want. This teaching is contrary to Christ’s teachings as proclaimed by the Catholic Church. Hus, the Protestant Calvinist model of economy, which is the foundation of the Capitalism, or Savage Capitalism, is lacking in justice, morals and ethics. It is a system based in discrimination against the poor and Catholic nations.

    The ‘strong’ thesis is that Calvinism caused capitalism
    http://www.humanities.mq.edu.au/Ockham/y64l10.html

    Finally. John 6:66, and 1st of John 2:18-19 really tell us the nature of the challenge we are facing regarding Protestantism. Thus, we pray for those left us, Protestants, because they do not believe His words. We pray so that they may return to the House of the Father. We pray so that they stop hurting us and persecuting us, discriminating against the poor, the Mexican, the catholic and the disabled. We pray so that their hearts are open to mercy and charity. We pray so that they may experience the same thing that happened to Saul of Tarsus when he was on his way to Damascus, persecuting Christians, filled with the zeal of God, a zeal without discernment (as he later stated of himself). God, please let them “fall off the horse” and cure their blindness, convert their hearts and make them open their eyes, just as you did to Saul. Saul after this encounter became known as Saint Paul, apostle to the Gentiles. Saint Paul wrote most of the New Testament after his miraculous conversion. Oh God, convert their hearts so that they no more persecute your only Church, the Catholic Church, Mexican immigrants.

    • If as you say, The Catholic Church is that Millennial Kingdom, and we have been ruling the Earth with Iron Scepter, with the Messiah, since the Millennia started, 2000 ago, then as the Holy Father of the church and the holder of the scepter, the Pope must therefore be Jesus Christ. When Jesus said of the Antichrist that many will come in my name, he was apparently referring to the many Popes thru the centuries. It makes a great case for the followers of Luther, doesn’t it?
      I guess the real Jesus never has to return as long as we have a Pope.

  39. Well thot out comments, but very short on truth. It ignores the need for repentance for the foundations of the Catholic Church. So much fighting among the leaders for position, icluding kidnapping and murder. So much pushing mens’ traditions on the people who had no Bible to see the truths for themselves. So much making God’s word of no effect, bringing the dark ages.

    Paul said the spirit of anti-christ was already present, during his day. So we might look back and see just what Paul meant. But first, it must be noted that Peter and the other original Apostles were Apostles of the Jews by Jesus’ command to go to them, but not to the gentiles. This begs questions of how then Peter is the first “pope” of the gentiles. More on that later.

    Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles as he stated, and time has proven. The Jews and the Church have different destinies. The Church is to be a Spiritual Kingdom, a preparation of the Bride of Christ. But the Jews are to be an earthly Kingdom of God, right thru the millenium. The Bride will come down during that time, but little is said about what role She will play, other than ruling and reigning with Christ. She may even be invisible to the earthly inhabitants.

    Back to Peter being the “rock” of the churches. Peter had just had a revelation of who Jesus was, and it had come from the Father, as Jesus noted. When Jesus said, “This is the rock I will build my church upon,” it was not Peter, but it was the REVELATION FROM THE FATHER about His Son, Jesus that would be that rock, the Rock of salvation. Peter was not and never will be the rock of our salvation. It was a misreading of Scripture that fit the desires of those with the spirit of anti-christ, that the Catholic church was built on.

    None of this excuses our present Protestant churches. Surely, the spirit of anti-christ prevails in them, as well. Like the Catholic church before them, they have gone-a-whoring. Both have become Babylon. DavWms

    • Judgment Day=Second Coming of Christ

      What are my credentials? You may say: “How can you talk about Protestants if you do not even know them, you are a Catholic?

      Well, I was raised a Catholic. Yet I became a Protestant, or, Evangelical, as others called us. I learned the scriptures there. I became good at them. However, I was given a crooked and twisted interpretation and use of them, much like Satan when he tempted Jesus in the desert. I had the Enemy’s interpretation and twist of the Scriptures, a perverted millenarian version of them. I knew the scriptures, but with a twist: the Antichrists twist, for I even became a Pastor amongst them. We used to preach Christ was coming to establish his kingdom on Earth for a Thousand years, which is the Great Deception that welcomes the Antichrist’s Kingdom of the Beast.

      Yes, I was a pastor. I was anointed by the Evangelical “Church.” The story is long, so I will not give you many details. I have already written a book about it. The Catholic Church published my book when I returned to the only Church of Christ. My book is here, it is free (However, it is in Spanish Language): http://www.alvear.us/

      What is it I am trying to do with these words? I am trying to warn you to open your eyes. There is no such thing as a perfect kingdom on Earth, where there is no sin, where there is no pain. That, my friend, is reserved for Heaven, the new Universe he is creating for us. So, if anyone tells you that the Messiah will come to establish THAT kind of Kingdom on Earth; they are lying to you. They just want you follow them. They are advertising themselves as the Christ: DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM, do not follow them. Remember, Christ already established His Kingdom on Earth when he came the First time in His Church. The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her. We are that Church, the Catholic Church. We are, and we will be under attack continuously. Yet, there will be the day when Satan will be let loose from Hell. That day he will deceive all nations to come and fight against us. They will kill the Pope, Cardinals and Bishops. As a conclusion, we will no longer be able to Consecrate: to make present the presence of God here on Earth through the Eucharist. Since there will be no one to stop him, for the Eucharist is gone, that day Satan will come to Earth from Hell and will reign once again the Earth with total devastation and destruction, sin and iniquity, deceptions and lies. However, it will be for a very short period of time. When that day of terrible persecution against Catholics begins (for we will be persecuted by Protestants as well) the Final Day of Judgment will come.

      What is the final day of Judgment? The Second coming of Christ in Glory. His Glory is so majestic that the Earth will not resist him. Not even the Universe itself will resist him. All of this creation will Die, to be born again. That is the day of Resurrection, for not only us will resurrect. Yes, we will be the first ones. However, the Universe will follow and there will be a new Heaven, and a New Earth. However, before all of this happens, the whole Cosmos must be consumed by fire.

      When will this happen? I just know it will happen in the future, for the Church and the Scriptures give us testimony of it. One of the very evident signs will be the great persecution of Catholics throughout the Earth. It will be similar to what Hitler did to the Jews, but at a global scale.

      Where did I get all of this? The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

      • Hi Juan,

        I am staying neutral on this, so that people can express their views. But I do think it is a concern that Protestants have almost eliminated Communion from their churches. I see it as a rare occurrence.

        Jesus is returning for a “church” without spot or wrinkle, referring to false doctrines, and practices. Right now, this does not describe the body of Christ to me.

        I think the next world war, which seems imminent, will bring many to their knees, and hopefully, purge many of their false views, if they are lucky enough to live that long. We all need to humble ourselves and repent.

        I look forward to the day when Jesus rules and all the earth bows to him as Messiah.

      • I don’t believe the Catechism any more than I believe the Koran or the book of Mormon. The writers all had an agenda. I’ll take the Bible, myself. The only true WORD.

      • Actually I’m not really surprise if you guys that are having a good nasty stab at the Catholic Church are Protestants. I find that their are Protestants that have a general hatred of Catholism and point judgemental fingers at this organisation calling it the Anti-Christ, when they first should judge their own organisations sins before they do others. Further Martin Luther did not want to break away from Catholism, he just wanted them to change their practices. However, the Catholic Church do find it tragic that the reformist issues were not addressed without dividing Christendom and recognize after all that the Catholic Church is just a organization run by men whom are imperfect and susceptible to corruption.

        Louis Bouyer contends that the only way to safeguard the positive principles of the Reformation is through the Catholic Church. For only in the Catholic Church are the positive principles the Reformation affirmed found without the negative elements the Reformers (Protestants for one) mistakenly affixed to them.

        • hi paper doll

          People also want to forget that the Catholic church had its own reformation.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Reformation

        • First off I do not find one place in the Bible where the word Trinity is used that is from Ancient Egypt and inter mixed with the bible with all false Religions there is not one place in the Bible where anybody was Baptized in the name of Father son and Holy Ghost until 352AD and the Foundation of the Roman Catholic Church. See link below.
          http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/doctrine/The%20Origin%20of%20the%20Trinity.htm
          And I find no place in the Bible where the word Eucharist is found and nowhere did Jesus mention it.

          • hi Annette

            Jesus commanded, in what is called the great commission:

            Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

            True, certain words have been coined to represent certain biblical concepts.

            • the verse you refer to says IN THE NAME. is father, son and holy ghost name? aren’t they titles?

              • gail

                since the bible says father son and holy spirit, then baptism can be done that way….calling them titles may be technically right or wrong.

                Yahweh or yahovah is a name or title as well?

                jesus is the name of the son only……

                the idea is to baptize in the name of the true god, and not a foreign one.

    • Yes I agree and this link will confirm what you are saing.
      http://www.keithhunt.com/Ntacts94.html

  40. water represents multitude, woman represent church, beast represent power, and the dragon is the devil.
    somebody said that rome does not have power over the world, how about this; when a new pope is being crowned, these words are repeated:
    “(Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of Princes and Kings, Ruler of the World, Vicar of Our Savior Jesus Christ in earth, to whom is honor and glory in the ages of ages.)”
    rome rules the world not in political but in religious form.
    she is the mother harlot who have daughters “the denominations”
    they all trace their way back to Catholic..
    that and many more…

  41. I come here to place the icing on the cake!!
    Do you know that the ‘prophet’ of Islam and the Koran was financially back up by the Roman Catholic Church?
    Do you know that the ‘Dome’ of the Rock is built on land that the Roman Catholic Church owns?
    The so called ‘holy roman empire’ divided itself into Two legs.
    The one with the gold makes the rules.
    Have you any knowledge of ‘albert Pike’ ??

    • This Prophet of Islam (considered from Adam to Muhammad) and the Koran financially backed up by the Roman Catholic Church is another conspiracy since Muhammad lived 570CE to 632 long before the Roman Catholic Church was even created (The Vatican).

      The Word Roman Catholic did not even appear in the English language until the 16th century when the Protestantism appeared and a differentiation was needed between specific Christian groups.

      The Vatican made it’s first appearance 326 around about the first half of the 4th century were the first Basilica of St Peter’s was built over the site of the Circus of Nero, during the reign of Constantine 1 long after the Prophets of Islam appeared.

      If such a financial backing occurred it would have been made by Pagan Roman’s not Christians who saw some sought of advantage politically or strategically.

      The Dome of the rock and Muslims being financial backed by the Catholic Church is considered as conspiracy theory not fact. However western governments do give funding to Islamic schools and their bodies around the world, as well as other religious organizations such as the Jewish for example, at present day.

      Further, this Dome of the Rock built on Roman Catholic ground is not totally true as it was owned by the Byzantine Empire which is Roman Christian and also known as Greek Christian. The Catholic Religion did not come to fruitarian until later.

      This Christian lands (not Catholic) in Jerusalem was Conquered by the Muslims in 638AD by Caliph Omar in which the Dome of the Rock was erected with its blasphemies that Jesus is not the son of God and other words written on it.

  42. p.s.
    I have found a lecture given by Dr. Walter Veith on this subject.
    Here is a youtube link

    • Hi Abigail

      There seems to be multiple views on the 7 hills, and the Catholic church is a popular selection for the 7 hills. Albert Pike was a Luciferan and a Freemason.

      I am listening to the video now..only into the first 5 minutes…..according to Daniel, and revelation, the beast is the revived Grecian empire, not the revived Roman empire…..which the speaker believes.

      I will not disagree that the Catholic Church has contributed a huge mess to the world scene, and will play a part in the end time deception. I heard the other day, that it decided aliens were friendly, and not demons.

      • Hi Marianne ,

        Hope you have watch the entire lecture of Professor Veith.
        Don’t know if you are familiar with this here but some of your readers may not be.

        “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

        This is what the lucifertarians have in store. It’s a card game!
        The catholic church is the deceiver and the torturer. Either known or unknown. Very hypocritical!

        • Hi Abigail,

          I listened to the whole video! Wow, it was long!

          I agree with a lot of what he says but not everything.

          He said some things that were obviously wrong, like since the Quran does not believe Jesus died, and neither do the Catholics. The Catholics believe Jesus died. Also, even though he quoted the Quran as saying Satan and the genii could cause people to be bad, he then concluded that the Quran says that this is not true, that there is nothing wrong with them.

          I am not convinced that Islam was promoted/ initiated by the Catholic church either. That seems like speculation. He does a lot of that.

          Furthermore, I am not convinced that it is to the advantage of the church leaders to worship Lucifer, and then tell the followers to worship Jesus instead. This is counterproductive. Although the Church is far from perfect, and has many errors, I think he hates the Catholic church so much that he is willing to believe anything at all that is negative. We need to be objective, not biased, when looking at “speculation.”

          Also, we have to be careful about symbols used over thousands of years, and how they can have different meanings to users. If I were to use a flower or a heavenly light as a symbol for God, and this had been done before in ancient times, as a symbol for Satan, this does not corrupt my use of the symbol. I have a different use of the symbol. When trying to be creative, people tend to use available, simple objects as symbols, rather than trying to create a new symbol.

          Satan has no monopoly on the use of the star. God made the stars, so he should have first choice. 🙂 Saying that since the star is used in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, does not mean that all uses are Satanic. One must look at the intended use of the star, and the theology.

          The Luciferan mindset is very prevalent. I think most are more deceived by it, than practicing it. But deceived people are still dangerous, so we should be on the watch for them.

          • Hi Marianne,

            I hate to do this research but for the sake of The Truth I can if you wish post simple links that proves the involvement and the initiation of the Catholic Church with Islam.
            To start with
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock

            • Hi Abigail.

              I am not sure what the point is here. The Dome was built by the Muslims in the 600s. Over time, the territory has changed hands several times, including the Crusaders and the British, as well as the Muslims. It is now under Jordanian control, even though it is “inside” the Jewish state of Israel. All 3 monotheistic religions co-exist in Israel today. I has been that way for a long time. The Catholic church is just stupid, since it does not read the bible. It easily compromises over everything.

  43. SORRY… please read the BIBLE. The KINGS of the EARTH have committed FORNICATION with her (the City). What KINGS of the earth sleep with her in order to gain something? The Presidents and Kings sleep with (fornicate) with the Vatican. The VATICAN is a COUNTRY. No who did they have to sleep with for a RELIGIOUS organization to get their OWN COUNTRY?

    You error on the WATERS. The waters are PEOPLE NATIONS AND TOUNGUES. Not REAL WATER. So your argument that it is Turkey because it is surrounded by real water is false. The WATERS in Revelation 17-18 are PEOPLE, NATIONS and many LANGUAGES (TONGUES).

    The BLOOD of the saints are on her hands. People like William Tyndale and MANY, MANY others were killed during the inquisition of the Papacy.

    She is RICH. I have been to the VATICAN several times. Everything is RICH; GOLD, PRECIOUS STONES, etc.

    ETC, ETC, ETC. It must be ROME and in particular, VATICAN! And she is called, MYSTERY Babylon, NOT BABYLON. She is a MYSTERY that will be revealed. CATHOLICISM today is accepting MANY religions under their faith. They call the Muslims, “Brothers”. SHE has helped Leaders and Kings come to power. She is POWERFUL, and she will help the man of sin to come to power as well.

    But, even so, COME LORD JESUS!!

  44. And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. The Daughters of CATHOLICISM have error greatly. Catholicism, praises Mary “Hail Mary, Full of grace, Blessed art though among women..” She says there is a purgatory. They call the Pope (Pope means, “Father, Papa”, and Jesus said that no man should call someone their spiritual Father; but Catholics ignore this. They believe Baptism saves. They believe the “Most Holy Father” (Pope) is infallible in doctrine. They believe the sacraments (works) save. Etc. Etc. They believe they drink the LITERAL BLOOD of Jesus and eat his LITERAL FLESH, during their communion (Eucharist). This is the CUP OF ABOMINATIONS. Drinking the BLOOD of Jesus. Jesus said it was for a MEMORIAL. Jesus’ blood is not a PERPETUAL (ongoing) sacrifice. It was once, for all. IT IS FINISHED!

    • Hi mark,

      What you say about the Catholic Church is true. It just seems now, no one cares about it any more. It does not have the power or influence that it used to. Not even Catholics take the Pope and its church seriously. Most are fallen away, and have become atheists. The Catholic Church is dead.

      • Whether you take a power seriously or not, it does NOT diminish its’ influence,
        nor its’ might.
        The Catholic Church is a covenant of DEATH to the soul and to the body!!
        You say that most have fallen away as though it was a fall to break loose from its’ claws.
        Do you not understand that the ‘Sunday’ worshippers are in its’ prisons?
        So are the CHRIST MASS followers.
        And so are the “easter’ or ASter followers.
        Halloween and all its’ “CUTE” little Pagan Holidays.
        The Catholic Church IS DEAD, that is true!
        Eternally DEAD!!
        But while we are still walking the earth know that its’ grip on the rulers and the normal earthlings is ‘iron’

  45. The word “Vatican” literally means “Divining Serpent,” and is derived from Vatis=Diviner and Can=Serpent. Vatican City and St. Peter’s Basilica were built on the ancient pagan site called in Latin vaticanus mons or vaticanus collis, which means hill or mountain of prophecy. Coins minted in Vatican City often bear the inscription “CITTÁ DEL VATICANO”, which means City of Prophecy. The Church of Rome thus applies the title of “City” to its structure and as we shall see, lays claim to all the other attributes as well. In the coin shown here, minted in 1963, Pope Paul VI is shown together with his title Pontifex Maximus and the inscription on the reverse side reads “CITTÁ DEL VATICANO.” The full title of the Vatican State is “STATO DELLA CITTÁ DEL VATICANO” which is the combination of Church and State. There is also a woman on the reverse side of the coin, and at her feet is her title, FIDES, which means faith. This woman is symbolic of the Roman Catholic faith, or Roman Catholic Church, which claims power over all governments on earth.
    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Revelation 17:18

    • Dear Abigail

      I think you are too preoccupied with this. You are going to miss the real Antichrist, if you get too stuck on the Catholics.

      The latin word for serpent is “serpens, serpentis” not “can”

      The closest word to “can” in Latin is canere, which means “to sing.”

      The latin word for divine is
      dīvīnus

      I took Latin for 2 years in high school.

      The “woman” is symbolic of the church, and of Israel, as both are considered the bride of god. There are good women and bad women. You cannot assume every image of a woman means something bad.

  46. Passover and the feast of unleavened Bread unto the Lord has been changed by the Catholic Church to this.
    Regarding Easter; this word comes for the Ishtar (also called Semiramis or Astarte) goddess of fertility and sexual love; wife of Nimrod and mother of Tammuz. The feast of Ishtar in Babylon was a fertility rite. Babylonians would worship the things of fertility in nature by buying new outfits to wear because the trees were putting on new “clothes” during this time of year. During this time of year, they depicted Ishtar as being pregnant. The Babylonians worshipped the rabbit because it was the most fertile of all the animals in the wild. The people of the day colored, painted and played with eggs as being symbolic of fertility and their attempts to get pregnant.
    The catholic church even went into the trouble of changing times just so this pagan would be held on the first Sunday following the Vernal Equinox.

    • Yes, Abigail

      The Catholic Church is full of nonsense. But try to keep end time prophecy in perspective. Remember, Protestants have Easter egg hunts too. There are a lot of stupid traditions based on pagan feasts. that is why the catholic church is not a power any more in the world. All the governments think it is a stupid institution. The church is deceived and has made a fool of itself.

      • To me Easter egg hunts bring some fun and spice to children. However The Easter egg has a symbolism to Catholics and other Christian religions which simply means: the egg is the tomb of which Jesus was placed in and the breaking of the Easter egg just means Christ has risen.

  47. As I said at the beginning, the one with the gold rules. Now as for the catholic church not having any power I must say that such intellectual conclusion is the result of a very naive, narrow and at this point voluntarist perception.
    Are you a catholic?
    If you are then I understand your tenacity.
    But for the sake of argument I am presenting another lecture from Dr. Veith, for those who may be interested.

    For myself I am folding this discussion because I see you seem determined to
    undervalue every thing I present.

    Abigail

  48. The Whore of Babylon are Protestants. The Beast is U.S.A. The mark of the Beast, 666, is cleverly described in… John 6:66 (however, only the chosen ones have been given the wisdom to understand the meaning of 666).

    • If the USA is the beast and the number of his name is 666, what name do you use to arrive at it? You’ve given the number of a verse that was not in Johns bible when he wrote this. Sounds like a trick to me. I’ll stick with Vicarivs Filii Dei to get the number.

  49. Protestantism is the root of all the problems in America.

    My thesis is very simple. It states Protestantism is the root of all the problems in America. The Republican Party is an example of the State run by a Religious Group: White Anglo Saxon Protestants. That is unconstitutional. A religion cannot run the Nation. Republicans are a religion, more than a Political Party.

    Protestantism has become much to arrogant. WASP’s are going to loose their power in the World.

  50. Protestants proclaim to be themselves the Messianic Kingdom of Christ that will Rule for Thousand Years. That sounds to me like another cult message, like Jim Jones or David Coresh. The only difference in between the little cults and the big cult, is the numbers. The Big Cult is called the Republican Party. The Messianic Kingdom is called by Bush the Father, Bush the son, and its followers, the NEW WORLD ORDER, total domination, the Kingdom of the Messiah, defenders of the Universe. In other words: “Christ will rule in Israel for a thousand years and we shall be the military power and might that Christ will use to RULE THE WORLD. USA the ARMY of the MESSIAH!”

    I am sorry my friend, but that is the most perverse propaganda I have ever heard. If that is really what Republicans and Protestant and Evangelicals are all about, I quit. I am going back to the Catholic Church, the one this “Cult” of fanatics with world-domination-wet-dreams criticizes so much.

    Don’t you get it? Protestantism is but a big cult, a sect, a “satanic deception.”

    • Hi Juan,

      I can see from the above discussions why you would be frustrated. I personally see problems in both the Catholic and Protestant branches of “the Church.” The Catholic church has elevated Mary to a goddess, confused the world about 3 gods, and the Protestants worship money, and continue the confusion. I do not see the Protestants as racist.

      If you look around this site, you will see posts criticizing the Protestant branch, not the Catholic. The Catholic may only come up in an occasional discussion, like on this page.

      What we need to do is just be good Christians, and go by the bible, instead of what an institution says. It may be ok if they are correct about something, but it is wrong to follow them if they contradict the bible in some way.

    • You only need one verse to know you will be saved from the wrath of God: Rev. 14:12. You avoid the mark of the beast by keeping the commandments of GOD. Simple as that. Including the 4th commandment – keeping His sabbath.

  51. Hi Marianne,

    Here is another link to a lecture by Dr. Veith.

    The King James version is based on the received text and as far as I know
    every modern translation of the Holy Scriptures has been modified, entire sections removed and crossed out.
    Tell me HOW can a sincere seeker of the Truth of God ever know the real Truth and the Christ?
    I am furious at the audacity of the catholic church to remove from scriptures The Savior of this lost world.
    If I fell this way and I am just human how do you think God sees this demonic whore?
    If you also listen to the previous lectures entitled War of the Bibles you will get an entire scope of this ‘GREAT DECEPTION’
    I have learned early on in my life that what God calls ‘great’ he means great.
    We are to live not by bread alone but by ‘every word’ that proceeds out of the mouth of God.
    How dare they change the Holy Word?
    So if a person goes to the bible for their life, I would suggest that they better go to the true version.
    Our duty is to expose this corruption!

    • Hi abigail

      I guess the debate continues.! 🙂

    • The Old Testament and New Testament has come down to us from many translated languages. Over time words change their meaning and are lost in time. The problem is over time The Old and New Testament have come under many scrutinies and arguments with scholars and all soughts of persons alike such as the Jewish rabbis have queried to gain greater understanding of its meaning. If things are not added or have changed slightly it is because of the difficulty of the word. These literate people all have to go through a process of finding out if they are authentic or fake words and etc. However, in the end for me it is a matter only Christ can fix up. But I’m a little worried since their is a part of the Bible which mentions a punishment for altering the words of the Bible.

  52. One thing to note, that many defend their religion, rather than the Gospel. Jesus was promoting a relationship with Him, not with a religion. That is why the Catholic religion is a whore, for they try to get between God and man.

    But Protestants need to look at themselves, too. Do we not have “heroes” we follow after? Have our hero preachers sought to get men to follow them, and grafted themselves between us and the True Vine? While the Protestants have broken away from the Catholic church, they brot many subtle evils in with themselves.

    The blind still lead the blind. DavWms

    • Mr. Williams,

      Jesus Christ did not come from the Throne of God to promote anything!
      The Son of God, the Word of God came in the flesh to do the Will of the Holy One that sent Him.
      And that is to lay His life down for the ‘sins of mankind’ as the perfect Atonement and God raised Him from the dead!
      And He did this so to reconcile man to God. And only through Him will this be achieved by any one who with godly repentance believes on Him and do the Commandments of God.
      Without Him you are dead and will never enter everlasting Life.
      The so called catholic ‘church’ has its roots in Babylon and so are its rites.
      She is an Abomination to The Lord!
      She in her arrogance changed the Commandments Of The Lord.
      She instituted idolatry, paganism and murder. She is a Luciferian, a freemason a templar, a Hypocrite.
      She changed the Holy Scriptures and for all of this she demands adoration by men.
      She is a whore with the nations.
      She plays the harlot with the assemblies.
      She is the most detestable thing on the face of the planet.

      There is not many that protest her now these days. April 17/08 she paid a visit to the States. And the President Bowed his knee to her!
      Now you have a President bowing to Arab Kings. What does that tell you?
      Well to me it says much!

      Don’t you know how much The Whore desires your destruction?

      In history the protestants broke free of her, but that is history.

    • Actually, when you think of it at the begining their was no Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant and Anglican Christian religions etc. Thus, their only existed Christianity not various organisations of Christianity.

  53. Marianne:

    SOLA SCRIPTURA. Yes, I have heard the Sola Scriptura argument many times: Read the Bible, the Bible is the source (as if the Bible had been printed in Heaven and brought to us by Angels -as Mormons claim about their writings). Did you know that Protestant Bible Scholars have discovered through exegesis that the Bible is a fruit of the tradition of the church in the Ecumenical Council of Churches (where Catholics belong no to)? Thus, finally they are coming to the conclusion that the Bible is a fruit of the Tradition of the Church.

    The new buzz words (actually a 10 year old buzz word) is SOLA TRADITIO instead of SOLA SCRIPTURA. Why? Because the Catholic Church wrote the Bible.

  54. Mr. Juan,

    You say you are going back to the Whore. Why?
    What have they ever done for you?
    Be frustrated with the mess if you will but if you had walked away from her, I suggest that you keep on walking as far away from her as possible.
    The King James version of the Holy Scriptures is the only existing true text.
    If you love The Lord then you must love His Word – not the diluted and mixed text
    of the Catholics, because they have profaned The Truth.

    • Abigail,

      If you want to witness, and help someone, please use kindness, and exhortation. Using this strong language defeats your purpose.

    • What a you talking about Abigail. the Catholic people recognize the King James Bible as the Authorized version.

    • Sorry, but breaking news for you is that oldest bible copies are actually in Slavic language, which is basically Russian, but the texts are really scarce and don’t give much “new info”

      • dear Андрей

        with Putin as leader, religious freedom for christians seems to be protected.

        what is the religious environment in Russia? Is it still mainly atheist?

        • christianity is a minority anyways, and most of it is orthodox, which is basically not much different from catholics…

  55. What strong language are you speaking of Marianne?
    In my dictionary to exhort means to ‘strongly urge.’
    And how was I unkind?

    • abigail

      Use positive comments, rather than negative ones. People become defensive if they feel attacked. Do not let your zealous, but negative, observations about the church overshadow your love for the lost.

  56. The Word Of The Lord is a Lamp unto my feet.

    1

    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2

    With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4

    And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

  57. At least we know that the seven vials of the Wrath of God are reserved for The Mother of Harlots.
    Proverbs 5 : 7-11
    Therefore hear me now, my children
    And do not depart from the words of my Mouth.
    Remove your way far from her,
    And do not go near the door of her house,
    Lest you give your honor to others.
    And your years to the cruel one;
    Lest aliens be filled with your wealth.
    And your labors go to the house of a foreigner;
    And you mourn at last,
    When your flesh and your body are consumed.

  58. 1st John 2:18-19, and John 6:66.

    Who is the harlot? The one religion that pretends to be the followers of the Messiah, yet in fact they left the Messiah since John 6:66.

    Who are the Antichrists?

    The ones that left us because they do not believe are drinking the wine of the harlot, the spirit of the Antichrist. The ones that are under the spell of the Harlot and under the deception of the Antichrist are they. The ones referred to in 1st. John 2:18-19
    Who are they? All of those that departed the Catholic Church and hate us are they. They have the mark of the beast in their foreheads and their arms. They were deceived by Martin Luther, Calvin, Knox. They disguise themselves as servants of God, yet they are Antichrist. The tell the world the Messiah is coming to rule the world under the flag of the USA, the New World Order, for according to them Jesus will reign from Jerusalem. Yet the truth is that the Kingdom of Christ was established in the Papacy. He has been ruling the Millennium through the Church. The Second Coming is not what these perverts prophecy. The Second Coming of Christ is in Glory, and the Earth and the Stars will run away from the presence of God. For when Christ comes for the Second time as a judge, in The Final Day of Judgment, there will be no Earth for him to rule on. The Earth will vanish and all will stand before his presence. His works will be made manifest. The light will shine and all of us will be naked before the presence of God. All of our works will be known. It is on that Tremendous Day that he will cast his judgment. He will separate the sheep from the goats, the pure from the impure, for all will resurrect: some to eternal condemnation, others to Life Everlasting and will dwell in the Temple of the Lord, for they will be the Temple of the Lord.

    The Lake of Fire will be inaugurated and the Evil One and his followers will be casted there for eternity. So I thank you Lord because you open my eyes in the same way you opened the eyes of Saul of Tarsus. He used to persecute Christians until the day you opened his eyes. He was not aware he was persecuting you. He though he was doing a favor to God by killing Christians. The same exact thing happens today to many. They are under the influence of the deceiver and persecute us, your Church, your only Church, the Catholic Church. I was one amongst them, for I was an Evangelical Pastor. I have now returned to your Church. I know what we used to preach. I know we used to persecute the Catholic Church as many nations currently do. For the USA has traditionally persecuted Catholics, for not only Communist China and USSR has. We have many enemies throughout the World. We are the most persecuted religious community in the world, and that in itself is testimony that we are in union with you Apostles.

    I pray to you oh Father for those that you have given to Jesus and are amongst the ones reading these words. I do not pray for those that are doomed for eternal damnation, but for the ones that belong to Jesus. Do not let them be perpetually deceived by the Whore of Babylon and the Powers of the Anti-Christ. Deliver them so that they can join us in the Feast of the Lamb of God, the Catholic Church.

    “Up! Be off, this is no place to rest” Micah 2:10

    • It is all true I have been converted to Catholic since 1980 and all they do is tell lies since before we were a Country to keep their children from seeing the truth Like the Bapist they put more Faith on john the Baptis baptizing Jessus than the do on Jesus however everyone John baptized had to be rebaptized in Acts 19 and I wouldn’t have a KJV of the Bible in my house their missing 7 books and modified version of the Bible I want the true word of God.

      • dear heidi

        There is much sin in the world now. This includes lies, and people who tell them, and people who believe them. Just trust Jesus and you will be ok.

  59. Here is an interesting little video clip.

    There are creeds and then there are creeds.

  60. Who is the Bilbe talking about?

    The Protestant Church, White Anglo Saxon Protestants, the New World Order of Bush the Father, Bush the Son, and the Republican Party (AKA: The Apocaliptic Beast).

    1

    And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    2

    With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

    3

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    4

    And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    5

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    6

    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    Who is the Bilbe talking about?

    The Protestant Church, White Anglo Saxon Protestants, the New World Order of Bush the Father, Bush the Son, and the Republican Party (AKA: The Apocaliptic Beast).

    • Dear Juan,

      Since liberal Catholics, atheists, and the Democrats are now in power, how do you still fit this Protestant beast into the picture?

    • All of these can describe the Catholic church as well as anything – especially purple and scarlet vestments and gold sacramental cups. But the key is in verse 5: The mother of harlots. The original whore church (the mother church) gives birth to harlot churches that are just as bad. There is no doubt this was the protestant churches splitting off from the early Christian church (which became the Catholic church) but retaining at least some of the abominations of the original. Martin Luther may have corrected 95 points (in his eyes) but he missed the only one God really cares about: Keeping His commandments. I’m afraid that all churches that do not honor the true sabbath will be held accountable. The whole world will follow the beast and almost all Christians will take his mark, most of them without even realizing it. I pray you won’t be one of them when that time comes.

  61. Hi Marianne,

    Here is an interesting little video which destroys some traditions.

  62. 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come
    under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.
    http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

  63. http://aporlareconquista.blogspot.com/

  64. THE SECOND COMMING
    Revelation 20:7-15

    When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison.

    He will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, 7 to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

    They invaded the breadth of the earth 8 and surrounded the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

    The Devil who had led them astray was thrown into the pool of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them.

    I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.

    The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.

    Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death. 12 )

    Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

  65. Your asking me how I still fit “this Protestant beast” into the picture since liberal Catholics, atheists, and the Democrats are now in power. My answer is that you may be right! We are witnessing the fall of the Beast, the WASP Beast ruling over the USA. Nevertheless, the Whore of Babylon, which is the Protestant Community (AKA as the Antichrist’s Church), is still alive and awaiting to ride on top of another Beast (Nation). In the last days, it is written, Satan will actually deceive all nations to come and fight against us, the Only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church at the End of the Millennium. So, it is not over yet.

    So, the Beast (Republicans) might no longer be if full power over the USA. However, the “three apocalyptic frogs” that come out of its mouse are still infecting the world with its deception. You might ask me? What is it that which is so infectious? What is the message of deception? What is the perverted preaching of Satan, the Anti-Christ, to deceive the Nations?

    The deception is the preaching of a Coming Millennium, that is, a thousand years in which there will be one ruling power over the whole earth. You heard me right, the Preaching of a coming Millennium! In its religious conception this is called by Protestants (those more closely affected by the Antichrist’s deception) the Second coming of Christ where He will Reign for one Thousand Years. However, I may add that is a perverted interpretation of the Scriptures worthy of the great deceiver that disguises himself as an angel of light. The truth is that there is no such thing. There will be no kingdom ruling for one thousand years; for that is already taking place. Christ has been ruling the World through the Church for the past 2000 years. In fact, the Second Coming of Christ is the Eschatological Judgment, also known as The Last Judgment, Final Judgment, Judgment Day, or Day of the Lord is the final and eternal judgment by God of all nations (Revelation 20:7-15). That is the Second coming indeed, Revelation 20:7-15!

    A secularized version of this deception, that is, the belief that there will be a Nation Ruling the Earth justly and with perfection for a thousand years, is portrayed in the New World Order ideologies of Bush the Father, Bush the Son and the Republican Party. It is also called the Novus Ordo Seclorum. It is the wet-dream of world domination of the White Anglo Saxon Protestant over the World indefinitely. It is an ultra nationalistic movement that, looked at it from the outside, is very similar to Hitlers Third Reich. Protestant Domination of the Whole World, the Masons, the Illuminati, the New World Order, or, in Evangelical terminology also known as, the Second coming of Christ, the Messianic Kingdom, the One Thousand Years of Peace, etc.

    As you may very well know, this is the belief of every single Protestant on the face of the Earth: that Christ will come to establish a millennial kingdom on Earth. All Bible only Evangelicals are awaiting eagerly for the Second Coming of Christ where he will come to rule the World from Jerusalem, and where the USA will rule the world with Christ for one thousand years. However, the Catholic Church has called these preachings the Antichrist’s deception, as well as an “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.

    Quote:
    “676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come
    under the name of millenarianism, especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism. http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm#I

    So, there you have it. Now you know why it is not over. Now you know why we called them the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon, the Beast. It is funny, for they themselves are the ones that started calling us this horrendous names accusing us falsely. However, it has turned out to be that they are the Cult, the Sect, the ones that Persecute the Church in the “name of God.” Isn’t it odd? They persecute the Church of Christ in the name of God, just as Saul of Tarsus did before he became Saint Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles.

    My advice: Desist persecuting us, the Catholic Church. We are not the enemy. The enemy is the deception that comes out of the mouse of the Beast. Do not listen to her. Do not believe the Whore!

    Sincerely,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    • Dear Juan,

      I think the Catholic and Protestant denominations BOTH have doctrinal errors to correct. Until they correct these errors, neither is ready for the coming of Christ.

  66. Dear Marianne:

    Catholics do not have doctrinal errors. They are the beloved bride of Christ. We have the guarantee in one institution of the Church in charge of Doctrine. It is called the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. Its sole purpose is doctrine. Your local priest, or Bishop, does not have any authority to modify or tell you anything different to what the Church teaches. Yet it may happen, for they are humans susceptible to fail and sin. Nevertheless, rest assure. There are no doctrinal errors that come out of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith.
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/

    Protestants are anti-Christian. They are not another church. On the contrary, they are under the influence of the Anti-Christ. Their doctrine is a mix of truths with falsehoods. They are confused, for they twist the scriptures so that they adapt to the purposes of their leader, the Anti-Christ. Yet, the faithful are in ignorance. Many are like Saul of Tarsus before his conversion to Saint Paul. The leaders are definitely anti-Christs. Their objectives are purely political, that is power and world domination.

    The second coming of Christ, as according to what Protestants say, is a perversion of the truth. It will never happen that way. There will not be 1000 years of Christ ruling on Earth. Their preaching is pure rhetoric to aid them on continuous world domination. Who is they? The Freemasons, the Illuminati, the New World Order, or, in Evangelical lingo, the Second Coming of Christ where “They” will rule with “Christ” for a thousand years.

    The second coming of Christ, as according to the only Church of Christ, the Catholic Church, is described in Revelation 20:7-15. It is also know as the Day of Final Judgment Day. There are no one thousand years of a worldly kingdom.

    We Catholics believe in one thousand years of Christ Reign on Earth (The Millennium), but not as an event that is going to take place in the future. It is something that has already started. His Kingdom and ruling started when Christ resurrected 2000 years ago. The Catholic Church is his Kingdom.

    It is for that reason that I could not compare Catholics and Protestants. It would be as comparing Good and Evil. You cannot compare two things that oppose each other. Do you understand what I say?

    Please keep in mind I used to be a Protestant Pastor. I returned to the Catholic Church in 1991. I know the subject, and the Bible, pretty well.

    • Hi Juan,

      You say that you were
      1-A catholic
      2-A protestant
      3-A catholic

      In your terms then
      1-good
      2-evil
      3-good

      So having tasted good and evil
      you now conclude
      that you know the subject
      and the bible pretty well

      Why have they all profaned the commandments of God?
      For him who loves The Lord keeps His commandments.
      Therefore one institution or another institution
      Or one nation or another nation
      as a whole are corrupt.
      Look around you is this not so?
      Only God is Good!
      We have all fallen!

    • dear Juan,

      If you know the bible well, then you that Jesus is the only way to the Father, and that He never said to use his mother to get to him. She is not a Co-Redeemer. This is an insult to the atonement of Christ. Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father in His name. He never told us to pray to his mother.

      The trinity is a construct of the catholic church, which is perpetuated by most of its protestant offspring. There is only one God, and that is the Father. This is repeated many times in the epistles. The Lord Jesus was beneath him in glory and authority before he came to earth, and while he was on earth. The glory and authority he has now he has gotten because the Father gave it to him, indicating who is “in charge.”

      There also is no place as purgatory. That is made up. There is only heaven and hell. You cannot pray anyone out of anywhere, after they are dead.

    • Dude, Try reading Rev. 20:4-7. There is a resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living when Christ returns. Then 1000 years later there is the second resurrection of everyone else and the white throne judgement. The 1000 years are mentioned in every verse. Or maybe the Catholic bible has removed those verses like it removed the second commandment (Don’t pray to statues etc.).
      Oh, and the last 8 chapters of Ezekiel are all about the millennium, in great detail. And I could go on. The “Day of the Lord” refers to Gods 1000 year reign (a day is as 1000 years with the Lord). It’s all over the bible, at least MY bible.
      And if we are in the actual 2000 year millennium (I guess Gods math is off) of Jesus through the Catholic church it sure is not living up to expectations. Are you saying that the persecutions of the dark ages, the crusades, and even the priestly molestation scandals of today are part of Gods plan for governing the world? I thought the swords were to be turned into plowshares and spears into pruning hooks and the nations will learn war no more. Whatever happened to that?
      No sir, we are not by any means in the “millennium” promised by Jesus. We are on the brink of destroying ourselves and our planet and we will succeed in doing so if Christ does not get here soon to stop it.
      But you may be right about the millennium in one way: Only Gods elect people will make it into the millennium:
      Rev. 20:6:Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with him a thousand years.
      I am afraid that most Christians may not make the first resurrection because they are not keeping the commandments of God, specifically the sabbath. These people may not be resurrected until the end of the 1000 years – at the final judgement. I fear you have created your own self-fulfilling prophecy and for you there will be no millennium.
      Time to get out of Dodge.

    • Juan,
      I think you need to buy a new bible. Apparently yours is missing a whole bunch of pages. Christ’s return is all over the place – old and new testaments and a 1000 year reign is clear. It is the “Day of the Lord” in the OT. Catholics disregard these scriptures just as they disregard the real second commandment (idols, etc.) and the true sabbath. When Jesus returns you guys are in trrroouuble!

  67. Amen and amen Marianne,

    Jesus Christ was OBEDIENT unto death and it is God the Father that raised Him up by His Power.
    And seated Him at His Right Hand.
    And God put all things under Jesus Christ ‘ feet.
    It is the command of God
    ‘I am The Lord, thou shalt have no other gods before me
    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
    Thou shalt not take The Name of The Lord thy God in vain
    Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it Holy
    Honor thy father and thy mother
    Thou shalt not kill
    Thou shalt not commit adultery
    Thou shalt not steal
    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
    Thou shalt not covet

  68. Marianne:

    If you do not understand the things of the Earth, how could you understand the things of heaven? If you are like John 6:66 and are scandalized because he tells you that you need to eat his flesh and drink his blood, what makes you think you could understand Mary and the things of heaven?

    The Eucharist is the Source and Summit. You must first believe in the Mana that descended from heaven. Otherwise, you will not be able to understand anything else. You must be born from above, born again. Otherwise you will not see him in the Eucharist. We both would waste our times terribly trying to get you to understand. You see, this is similar to what Jesus said to Peter after Peter figured out he was the ONLY son of God that descended from Heaven, the Messiah: “My father who is in heaven has reveled that to you.” So, that means that you will not be able to understand.

    • Dear Juan,

      I understand who Jesus is, and I am born again.

      But you are evading the issues of false doctrine by the Catholic church.

      I am not being exclusionary, because the protestants have false doctrine also.

  69. Are you sure?

    • Yes, Juan, I am sure

      1. that I am born again

      2. that you have not addressed the issue of false doctrine in the Catholic church….Mary worship is idolatry, the trinity contradicts scripture, and there is no purgatory.

      a challenge for you. go look in the bible and see if you can find scriptures supporting
      praying to mary
      that Jesus said he was God Himself, and not the son of God
      that there is a purgatory.

  70. Marianne:

    You cannot understand the Scriptures but until you believe Jesus is God himself –the word of God that became flesh. However, you cannot believe that Jesus is God but until the Father reveals that to you –like he did to Saint Peter. Thus, I will commend you to Saint Thomas the Apostle. I am asking him to intercede for you so that the Father might have mercy on you and show you his son. Be patient. He cannot give you a gift you will toss away because you are to little to understand. He will give you those things you need in due time so that you do not brake them and toss them away.

    On the other hand, if you used to believe and don’t believe now, it might mean that sin is in the way. But that usually happens to Catholics who are excommunicated (their faith is taken away). Faith is taken away from them and they start to dry. Hopefully they will return once they feel the void and loose sight of Eternal Life. It is a very lonely place when we loose our faith in God. I tell you that by experience. It actually happened to me. Nevertheless, God was merciful and he showed me His son. He opened up the Gospel of John so that I could understand. The Gospel of John tells us who Christ really is. However, you cannot understand who he is unless it is reveled to you by the Father. So, do not try to figure it out on you own. You won’t be able to. It is like salvation. Faith is a gift from God, as you might already know.

    Please, do not misinterpret me. I am not telling you not to read John’s gospel. I am just saying you will not see the message unless it is given to you from above. You cannot see the divinity of Christ with your human strength and intellect.

    I think you might understand now why is it I do not reply to your other questions. It is because you do not believe Christ is God yet. That is the DOOR. If you do not enter though the DOOR, you are not inside. If not inside, you cannot understand the things from heaven (the doctrine you inquire about). In other words. The same thing that happen to Nicodemus is happening to you. You do not get it yet! You need to be born from above in order to understand. To be born from above means to believe in Jesus as God, the God, the Creator himself.

    Sincerely,

    • Dear Juan

      I am already aware of who Jesus is, and that he has a divine nature. Please answer my questions. Thank you.

    • Just a little history lesson pertaining to the apostles, Mary and all those who have died in Christ. They are not now in heaven to listen to your prayers and even if they were I don’t believe they have the power of God to read every mind on planet earth. The whole concept is crazy and Antichrist. In that I mean that the Jews don’t believe in heaven as a destination for the dead. Jesus said many (14) times that the dead will sleep until he returns in glory. Then will come the first resurrection. If everyone is already in heaven why the need to resurrect anyone?
      Yeah, I know – it’s in the catechism. Yada, yada, yada.
      Try to find it in the word of God.
      Good lick.

  71. Hi Marianne,
    I have some proof that the Dome of the Rock was erected on land owned by Rome.
    The Dome of the Rock, being among a complex of buildings on the Temple Mount, (the other principle building being the Al-Aqsa Mosque) is one of the holiest sites in Islam. Its significance stems from the religious beliefs regarding the rock at its heart. According to Islamic tradition, the rock is the spot from where Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel, even though the dome wasn’t built until after Muhammad had died. In Judaism the location of the stone is venerated as the holiest spot on Earth, the site of the Holy of Holies during the Temple Period. In Christianity it is believed that during the time of the Byzantine Empire, nearby the spot where the Dome was later constructed was where Constantine’s mother built a small church, calling it the Church of St. Cyrus and St. John, later on enlarged and called the Church of the Holy Wisdom.[19] On the walls of the Dome of the Rock is an inscription in a mosaic frieze that includes the following words:
    “Bless your envoy and your servant Jesus son of Mary and peace upon him on the day of birth and on the day of death and on the day he is raised up again. It is a word of truth in which they doubt. It is not for God to take a son. Glory be to him when he decrees a thing he only says be, and it is.”[1]
    This appears to be the earliest extant citation (verses 3:45-47) from the Qur’an, with the date recorded as 72 after the Hijra (or 691-692 AD), which historians view as the year of the Dome’s construction.[1]

  72. Marianne:

    In your previous post you said that you do not believe in the Trinity. You also said that Jesus has a divine nature. You believe exactly the same thing Jehovah Witnesses believe. I do not know if you are aware of it. Jehovah’s witnesses together with Mormons are not even regarded as Christians. One of the conditions to be regarded as a Christian is to believe Jesus is God, and of course, in the Trinity.

    Muslims also believe Jesus is a prophet, a divine prophet, like Mohamed. Muslims and Jews, both believe in the God of Abraham. Yet, they do not believe Jesus is God.

    The Catholic Church (the only Church of Christ) believes in the trinity and deity of Jesus (not only divinity, but deity) Deity means he is God. Divinity means he has God Like Attributes. Deity means he is God.

    So, you do not believe Jesus is God the Creator. Therefore, you are not a Christian. You have not been born again. You do not believe in the Eucharist, and probably, you do not believe he resurrected in flesh either (but as some sort of ghost, if at all).

    Marianne, you are not a Christian, by strict definition. You believe in Jesus in the same way Muslims believe in Jesus, as a divine prophet, just like what Mohamed is to them.

    Muslims even understand Mary better than Jehovah Witnesses. Jehovah Witnesses are one of the most radical anti-Christian cults. They are in full throttle with the Anti-Christ. Are you aware of that?

    Please, do not take this personal. I am just stating what is widely know amongst even protestant ecumenical circles. Those people that do not believe in the Trinity, or by that same token, that Jesus is God, are considered anti-Christians by definition.

    You have a right to believe in whatever you want. Please, do not get me wrong. I am just exchanging definitions. There is, for example, another definition to us Catholics. Freemasons are a group we cannot belong to. Their doctrines are irreconcilable and incompatible with the Teachings of the Church. Membership to a free masonic groups auto-excommunicate us. Same thing goes to not believing Christi is God, or in the Trinity. As Catholics we have an obligation. The obligation to surrender our minds and will as a religious gift to God, Christ and His Church (Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium). This is the way in which we fulfill the first commandment of Exodus 20: Love your God with all your heart, all your mind, and all you being. We trust him fully. We trust in Christ and we trust in the Teachings of his Church, regardless of its human member. And in occasions, we are very thankful for some of its human members. We call them Saints, for the Holy Spirit operates through them.

    Us Catholics have an obligation. Our obligation is Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium. On the other hand, in America you can believe whatever you want. There are no rules and you can even have a satanic church. It is OK according to the Law of the Land. We are grateful for those laws. If it weren’t for those laws, Protestantism would be the OFFICIAL RELGION of the State. It’s bad enough with Republicans being Protestants. It would be intolerable to have the Protestants Run the Nation continuosly. So, we thank God for religious freedom. That way, Catholics are so because they wish to be so. It is not an imposition. You can be a Catholic that is under Religiosum Voluntatis et Intelectus Obsequium. If you want, you can be a lukewarm Catholic. However, not for long. Believe me. Faith is like an onion. It is made out of layers. If you start peeling, you might end up with nothing. On the other hand, if you build, your faith grows.

    What is at the Heart of the Catholic Faith? What is the Source and Summit? Jesus Christ, the Eucharist.

    Most probably, you cannot understand what I am saying. You must be baffled as Nicodemus was when he hear Jesus talking about being born again. It does not surprise me. I was like that. I could not understand a thing when I was loosing my faith after being a Protestant Pastor. I do not wish for that to happen to you. Nevertheless, I was in the stage you are at. Not believing Jesus was God and the trinity. Would you like to know what is the next stage on the path to loosing ones faith? The next step is to believe Jesus was the Devil, the deceiver. After that step, there is another step. It is not to believe in the Devil. Right after that step, you stop believing in God altogether. On this stage it gets really cold. Life has no meaning whatsoever at all. You make an inventory of your life and realize you are poor (At least I was poor. Thank God I was not a millionaire, otherwise I would have stayed there, without God, for the rest of my life).

    I am going to share a secret with you. On this last step, if you are a free mason grade 33, your “brothers” coach you and give you a perceptive. Their perspective is that you, together with them, are the Illuminati. In other words, your organization becomes GOD to the people. It is your “mature” responsibility then to “perpetuate” the deception that GOD actually exists, when in reality it does not. So that you may understand me. It is like the story of Santa Claus. Children believe in him. Adults do not. Well, the analogy is good to explain what Freemasons 33 and the Illuminati regard themselves as. They regard themselves as God (same roles parents have with their little children regarding Santa).

    Both Santa Claus and God are but a fairytale?

    Thank God that is not the case. I do believe Jesus is God, the Creator himself. One God in three distinct persons.

    I am similar in a way: I am a European Citizen (Spanish), I am also a Mexican Citizen, and I am also an Lawful American Permanent Resident. Three different citizens, yet one single person (it is a joke I use to exemplify the Trinity)

    Sincerely Yours,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

  73. The Holy Trinity: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm

    • Dear Juan,

      The catechism does not quote scriptural proof as to WHO the Holy Spirit is, outside of being a Helper. An angel is a helper also.

      Jesus is described as being an image of the Father, just as Adam was when he was created.

      The expression “Godhead” in the bible is not defined as Father, Son and holy spirit, although these 2 do exist separately, along with angels and other heavenly beings.

      The scripture and the epistles emphasize that the Father is God, not all 3 of them, although the son and the holy spirit do have some divine qualities given them by the Father.

  74. Mary – Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm

    • Dear Juan,

      I agree that Mary was an exceptional saint.

      This is catechism, not scripture.

      But the Catholic church has no scriptural basis for calling her an advocate, mediatrix, queen of heaven or co-redeemer.

      There is only one way to the Father and that is Jesus. We are not to pray to her, or exalt her as tradition encourages people to do.

  75. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm
    (paragraphs 1030 to 1032)

    • Dear Juan,

      What you present is catechism, not scriptural proof. There is no biblical evidence for a purgatory.

    • Give me one bible verse on purgatory. The catechism (or the Koran or Book of Mormon don’t count).
      You will find it in roman paganism however. Hmmmmm.

  76. Juan also needs to see that the foundation of the Catholic church is based on falsity. They claim that Peter was the first “pope,” and the Catholic church was built on that foundation. But Peter was not assigned to the gentiles, but rather specifically to the Jews. Read the 2nd chapter of Galations and this will soon be evident. DavWms

  77. I agree on that, Marianne. But Juan comes on strong defending the very things Jesus spoke against. Like the Pharisees, there is blindness involved. I am just hoping to put a bit of doubt in his foundations that he may be saved. DavWms

    • David:

      Isn’t it the other way around?!?!

      Who is putting the doubt, but the one who speaks the truth. I am.

      YHVH speaks the truth. I am speaks the truth.

      • HI Juan,

        I know you are sincere, but you, and the Catholic church, have not yet shown scriptural basis for the doctrines and theories you hold as true.

        I would expect the same proof from a Protestant denomination.

        Catechism is not proof. It contains little or no scripture to back it up. It is “opinion.”

        You need to go straight to the bible and get the passages that prove your point.

        For example, show the bible passages where Mary worship is approved and that purgatory exists.

    • Juan is not lost he and are Catholic we do not belong to the anti Christ I will pray for you
      Heidi

  78. we, the catholic church, wrote the bible. The bible is fruit of the tradition of the catholic church. Thus, we are the doctrinal authority.

    Testimony that we are the only church of Christ is 20 centuries. We started when Christ founded us. We will be here when he comes, on the Last Day, the Final Judgement.

    We do not need to proove who we are. He gives testimony of us. We will prevail until the Final Day.

    • Juan,

      The entire Bible was written by Jews, not Catholics. Saint Peter was not a Catholic, either. Read your Bible. There is no pope. When Peter died, there was no “successor.”

      • Anothe false statment Jews didn’t write or beleive in Jesus Christ and you failed to tell us what faith you are.
        Heidi

        • Heidi the Bible was written by Jews, like Juan stated; the Bible was written by Jewish people who started the Christian Faith, expecially the Catholic’s. The Bible contains The Old Testament written before the appearance of Christ, The word christianity did not even exist at this time. It wasn’t until the New Testament where Jesus makes his appearance is when Christianity starts to gradually take shape.
          The first Bible was various documents that was placed together which were actually written in Hebrew and Aramaic and then translated to Latin, English and numerous other languages. The Apostles whom are Jews and Jesus started preaching their doctrines which were considered heiratical to the general jewish population espcially the Romans. These people were starting the beginings of Christianity.

        • That is probably one of the funniest, and stupidest things that I have ever read. LMAO.

  79. How can you say the bible is the FRUIT of the tradition of the Catholic church, unless finally you are admitting that the tradition of man has exalted itself above the authority of THE LORD???

    We know who you are.

  80. What is Protestantism? Is it really the religion of the Antichrist?

    The First Universal Epistle of John says in chapter 2, verses 18 and 19, that those that have departed from us, the only Church of Christ1, are Antichrists. Thus, the Anglican Rebellion lead by King Henry VIII, as well as Martin Luther, John Knox and John Calvin.

    What wrong did they do? With Henry VII it was a matter of the American Inheritance. The Pope had given newly discovered America as a gift to Spain (a part of it to Portugal, that is why Brazilians speak Portuguese). However, Henry did not want to have to share the Spanish Kingdom through his legitimate wife, the daughter of King Ferdinand, son of Charles V. Henry was very greedy. He was not an spiritual man and lust was his driving force.

    I would like to pause to explain the definition of an Spiritual man, versus a Worldly man. Worldly men and woman, live according to their instinct of survival. The fruits of the instinct of survival are greed (also known as financial stability), lust (also know as the desire to have as many children as possible with as many woman available in order to perpetuate the species). The instinct of survival is the animal in us, who is also responsible for envy and the death of Abel. The instinct of survival kills and destroys the competitor. Thus, a worldly man or woman is a normal human being. What is then an spiritual human being? A spiritual human being is one who is aware of Eternity, that is, of his own eternity., Thus, the instinct of survival in a spiritual man/woman is under control, much as a horse is controlled by a horseman. In an spiritual man, there is someone in charge of his/her instincts (I must point out that I am not referring solely to manners and education. Even tough those things are a fruit of the Spirit). A Spiritual man is him who is aware of the Eternal Journey, and thus has the ability to focus in guiding the horse through places a wild and savage horse might not want or dare to go. This is the case of our Lord Jesus Christ. He led himself to Calvary fighting against his human instincts of survival. He laid his life willingly. That is indeed the nature of the Spiritual Man. The Spiritual man/or woman, no longer abides by the laws of the Survival of the Spices. Why? Because the Spiritual Man has been born again in the real sense of the word (not in the way Protestants pervert the definition of being born again). The Spiritual man is born from above and thus, has crucified his own flesh with Christ (figuratively speaking). In other words, He is in control of the Horse because he is fully aware Death has been defeated for him.

    Adultery. Well, Protestantism offers a great solution for those persons that divorce and want to get remarried. The Catholic Church does not divorce marriages. It annuls them under certain and vary particular exceptions (when they never took place). Thus, if a woman is married under the Catholic Church, and has children that become teenagers; it is very difficult for the Church to grant an Annulment. If it did, it would be unfair to the children of the Sacramental Marriage, for the would be called bastards if there was an annulment. Yes, indeed, the children of the Sacramental Marriage would became bastards (The loving Church is not going to do that). However, the worldly woman that is filled with rebellion, decides to leave the Church because she cannot get an annulment. She goes ahead and marries under the Protestant Church. However, that marriage is not recognized as a Sacrament by the only Church of Christ. The Church calls it ADULTERY. The children of that eventual “marriage” (adultery) are bastards, and the Church will not baptize them. Otherwise, it would put in jeopardy the spiritual being of the children of the legitimate marriage. An example of this event is in the origins of Anglicanism, which separated a whole Nation bringing violence against those that opposed the rebellion and lustful King who was following his instincts of survival and economic security. When this happens, there is great rebellion again st God and his Christ. Thus, Protestantism is a resource used by those that follow their survival instincts, those that rebel against Christ and his teachings. Those that are anti-Christ and pro survival of the spices (worldly women and men). Protestantism is not for the Spiritual men and women. Protestantism allows lust, and survival instinct to flourish, denying the Spiritual Man. Protestantism denies Christ by allowing divorce. That is why it is an Antichrist. Protestantism is the Religion of the Anti-Christ, for it denies the resurrection of Christ de facto and in the lives of the faithful. Protestantism is a perversion, for it claims the Resurrection of Christ is the justification to “start a new life” and remarry every time you so desire. Protestantism is a perversion of Doctrine of Christ and the Church. It is an abomination that only brings the downfall of societies and nations. It persecutes those that oppose them, as Henry VIII did. It locks them out in prisons and mental institutions. I MYSELF have been threatened by followers of Henry VII with imprisonment. I have had to get a Cease and Desist Notice from an Attorney at Law to defend myself!

    So, in a very simple manner, I have expressed why it is that Protestantism is an Antichrist. It denies Eternal Life by means of allowing the instinct of Survival, or the Survival of the Species, to be above the way of the Cross of Christ –which is the Path to Eternal Life. It is a given that only those who have been chosen have the ability to distinguish who Christ really is, and thus, understand what he really means. In addition, these writings are not intended for those that do not believe. For, even if they were to understand what I say; it would sound completely absurd to them. Why? Because they do not believe in the Resurrection of the Body of Christ and ours. They are of the world and currenlty belong to Satan.

    Sincerely,

    Juan Eduardo Alvear

    1The Catholic Church is the Only Church of Christ as according to the Declaration Dominus Iesus, written by the Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as Prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith in 2000. Cardinal Ratzinger is the current Pope Benedict XVI
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

    • Hi Juan,

      It looks like this debate continues. I like you, Juan. You are a good man.

    • Juan,
      Speaking of Popes, what do you think about Saint Malachy – the catholic saint that was given a vision of all the future popes which he has so far correctly identified.

      Was he a nut job or did he receive a true message from God?
      What do Catholics think about this?

    • G-d said men’s hearts are continuely evil. I guess, except your Universal heart.

      Only G-d the Father can judge, and Christ will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Not because people are written in the Universal Church book of life. The Universal Church does not declare who is Christian, or not. It is up to Christ.

      The Universal Church is so full of paganism, it is why so many people followed Martin Luther. As they do to this day.

  81. Synopsis

    The adultery of one man separated a whole Nation, England, from her legitimate husband, Christ –the Papacy. This is indeed what Henry VIII did. Today we find the fruits of that horrible rebellion. Many more follow their example. Adultery has received a make over and no longer is called evil. Perverts call it to be a “new born” Christian. What a deception, worthy of the great deceiver! This brings us to the next question: Is the Anglo Saxon Protestant Church an Anti-Christ?

    • Juan if they be igorant let them be igorant and like the Lord said trow not pearls before Swine lest they trample them under their feet

  82. Marianne;

    Dave Hunt does a GREAT JOB of arguing that Rome is the Woman who sits on the 7 hills in this video:

    Kittii

  83. Hi
    i havent went through and read all the posts, my they are just too long! i just wanted to add my 2 pennies worth.
    from the research i have done, in the bible it tells us she will wear out the saints, apparently most catholic pictures of saints have yellow glows round the head? that is derived from the paganistic worship of the sun god, so they are indeed wearing out the saints. also pictures of jesus n the cross have is it INRI above? apparently thats a cathloic thing too and has nothing to do with jesus being king of the jews…..it is to do with some asrtology thing and the rose cross…introduced by catholocism. what i find most interesting is that the antichrist is described as giving voice to the false prophet and will perform many miracles to deceive the elect….i find it fascinating that it seems only to be mostly catholics who experience stigmata and see the holy mary images….arent these indeed false miracles? and giving voice to the image?
    i saw on internet recently a photo of the pope asking muslims for peace, in fact he was seen kissing/agreeing with the koran….type pope and muslim into google, its fascinating that now muslims want to kill the pope…….the beast and the whore maybe? it is also interesting that fatima is mentioned in both muslim and catholic religions but i havent done enough research myself yet to find what if any is the link…didnt want to make this a long post as there are so many long ones on here.
    god bless everyone that their eyes will be opened and the truth sets you free!

    • Hi julie

      I was hoping the content was not too long…sorry.

      What I try to do is highlight key words for those who just want to skim the page, to save time.

      INRI is an acronym of the Latin inscription IESVS·NAZARENVS·REX·IVDÆORVM (Jesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaeorum), which translates to English as “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews.”

      There are problems with the Catholic church, but there are problem with Protestants too. There are different views on this topic…as to who the woman is….you appear to take the “rome” view.

      just for interest sake….look at this…it is the symbol of the EU. This statue is outside of the EU Parliament.

      http://www.greatpreachers.org/images/europe2.jpg ( postage stamp)

  84. Dear Marianne,
    Thank you for the information in this article concerning the various cities and their geographical features making them candidates as possibilities for the symbolic woman of Revelation 17. I was not aware of this info – especially Istanbul(Constantinople). I tend to agree with you that this is probably the city which would be the seat of this woman. But exactly who the woman symbolizes is the heart of the matter. You brought out very good points about Turkey being the place where all of these religious elements come together. If you look at the history of this country and this city, it involves Islam, Catholicism, paganism, occultism, the philosophies and thinking of the Greeks, and even the first century, Christian, Apostolic true chuch of God. Constantinople was the vibrant, thriving capital of the Holy Roman Empire at one point in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. I think this points to something bigger about her identity. This woman in Rev 17 is referred to as Mystery Babylon the Great The Mother of Prostitutes and of the Abominations of the Earth. ALL false religion is abominable to God. And they all spring up from the ancient Babylonian mystery religions. And ALL false religion is headed by Satan. So, let us consider these two religions of Islam and Catholicism for the moment. Both are very large, consisting of over 1 billion people, both are very politically powerful (the Catholic Church still is), both have a long history of persecuting the saints and those martyred in the name of Jesus(hundreds of years), and BOTH seem to want a hand in splitting Jerusalem (the pope wants to make it an ‘international’ city). While I agree that Islam plays a big role in end-time events, I believe it is just part of the woman’s identity. You can’t cut away the Roman Catholic Church from this identity. The Roman Catholic Church is rife with paganism, and while they say their doctrine is based on what is written in the Bible – if you actually read the Bible (which they discourage and tell their members they don’t need to do), it CLEARLY is not. Both these religions are very dangerous, sinister, have and continue to use deception and lies to mislead people into or keep people in spiritual darkness. These, along with other false religions (ie.new age, occultism, atheism, eastern oriental religions, etc..) will contribute to deception and confusion of people on a grand, world-wide scale(which is happening). Really, this is just touching on this topic of who’s who in the book of Revelation, but I hope you find this perspective something to look into. Hope we will talk again. Thank you. Yours in Christ Lisa

    • hi Lisa

      Thanks for the insights. IT is always good to stay alert to all possible interpretations of bible mysteries. The way things look, we should find out in the near future.

    • Lisa, were did you hear or get your information that the Catholic Church members are discouraging and preventing the reading of the Bible from? That sounds like one crazy person or persons, even Catholic’s would look strangly at. As from Kindergarden to senior high I never heard of any Pope, Bishop, Priest, Nun or any other Catholic preventing me or anyone else from reading the Bible! When I was at School we were allways reading the Bible and were acting out characters from the Bible in plays. Even the teachers would read with us various passages and stories from the Old Testament and New Testament. The only thing I found sinister was the fact that towards the ending of my Senior High School years their seemed to be a lot more emphasis on other religions Toaist, Buddism, Islam, Jewish & Hindusim etc rather than more emphasis on Catholism or other Christian religions, for the duration of 2 years.

      • In case you didn’t know, during the dark ages the church outlawed bibles except in the monasteries where they were chained to the walls. Anyone caught with one could be thrown in jail and even tortured (remember the inquisition?) Until the invention of the printing press and the protestant reformation only the church could read from the bible, and this allowed the church to develop a set of doctrines (catechism) that could contain all sorts of non-biblical stuff, and no-one would ever know the difference. It worked for 1000 years, and now they have their own bible, which is OK to read nowadays.
        Just a bit of history to think about.

  85. their doctrine is based on what is written in the Bible – if you actually read the Bible (which they discourage and tell their members they don’t need to do
    The only place I have ever heard this lie is fron non-Catholic Why?

  86. Hi i kno am late in this..and u giv sum damning effidence 2 go along with ur opinion..1 thing i must question tho is, an am sry if any1 brought this already as i didnt read all comments, but u said..

    The woman (city) in Revelation 17 also sits on many waters. Istanbul “sits” on or near the Sea of Marmara, the Golden Horn Rver, the Bosphorus Strait, the Black Sea, the Aegean Sea, the sea of Crete, and the Mediteranean Sea.

    I question that because the angel told john the waters represent multiludes of ppl ( “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages ) not actuals water, there4 not oceans and seas no???

    • Lin,
      As you say the waters are not water but countries around the world. Since the woman represents a church it is either the church of Rome or the church of Istanbul (Islam).
      From the description of the woman (Harlot), she wears fine purple and scarlet (like bishops & cardinals) and uses a chalice of fine gold. I do not see these things or any others in use in Islam. I saw them every Sunday when I was a catholic however.
      And she rides the first beast of Revelation. This is the 5th beast of Daniel and follows the 4th or the Roman empire which in 568AD became the Holy Roman Empire. At that time it consisted of 10 countries (Kings) but the Pope declared the 3 Aryian nations heretics and sent the Roman legions to wipe them off the map (The Heruli, Visigoths and Ostrogoths), leaving seven crowns intact. The prophecy also says that this beast would last 1260 years (42 prophetic weeks) which is exactly how long the Holy Roman Empire lasted (till 1798). There is no other empire with a church attached that fit those requirements. NOT the Ottoman empire, that’s for sure.
      And remember that the beast would receive a fatal blow but then in the end time be healed or resurrected? Well I believe the Holy Roman Empire will soon be resurrected – a merging of the Vatican and the European Union into a great church-state with the Pope at the head. A unified Christian church, including most Protestants, and mandatory Sunday worship. The Pope has been working on this for years – it is no secret.
      Here are the kings mentioned in Rev. 17:
      5th. Holy Roman Empire
      6th. The Papacy (The one that was, is not and yet is.)
      7th. Revived Rome (European Union)
      8th. Revived Holy Roman Empire
      The Antichrist comes from the 6th beast and he comes in the name of Jesus and many (most) will be fooled.
      Could a Muslim terrorist or even an Imam do this? No way.
      Could the Pope? He already has 1.2 billion Catholics believing he is the Vicar (substitute) for Christ. And his title: Vicarivs Filii Dei in latin numerals adds up to 666!
      Need any more proof? There is a lot more if you just look for it with an open mind.
      Good luck and God bless!

      • hi james,

        Where does it say that the antichrist comes in the name of Jesus?

        Why do you think only Catholicism matches the description of the woman? The prophecy was about the future, not the present, although the system would be tied to the past, which is Babylon. Today, physical Babylon is under Islamic control. Istanbul, formerly Constantinople, also sits on 7 hills, and is controlled by Muslims.

        The woman is a religious system that is tied to a political system. This could also describe Islam, which is both, or Luciferianism, which is tied to the New World Order.

        • Hi Marianne,

          If Babylon is being brought up then shouldnt we wonder y the catholic bishops especially the pope all wear the Dagon Fishhead mitre? Pagans who worshipped the sun God Dagon, wore hats that resembled fishheads.. Take a closer look at the priests’ hats..Did i mention Dagon was the FishGod of Babylon?

          funny lil addition..the catholic church changed their sabbath to SUNday when saturday is the 7th day of the week..God COMMANDED.. REMEMBER THE SABBATH…AN KEEP IT HOLY!!!

          REV says John was astonished when he saw what this church was, y do u think? obviously it will b the church u least expect..wats mor surprisin than it bein the church that was supposedly the tru church?

        • First of all, the BABYLON of the Harlot is an ancient “Mystery” religion from the time of Babylon. (Baal worship). It represents all of the pagan practices that have gotten into modern Christianity including the holidays of Christmas and easter. Everyone knows that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25 but that it was a pagan roman holiday that the Christians were forced to accept into their religion. There are over 50 such practices in current use and they are the Babylon that will be destroyed. The real Babylon was destroyed millennia ago and plays no part in the second coming.
          As for the woman, here is my wisdom:
          The first beast (empire) is the Holy Roman Empire. It started with ten kingdoms and then the Pope destroyed three that did not agree with the churches views on Christ. Also it lasted 1260 years just as the prophesy said it would.
          The second “kingdom” (which includes the Antichrist) is the Vatican which gained its sovereignty in 1929. It is just the first beast without the military power. The woman (church) rides this beast. The church uses purple and scarlet (banned in Islam) and has great riches and has fornicated with (controlled) many Kings. Read the description to some people who are totally ignorant of scripture and ask them to chose between Islam and the catholic church and see what they say. Go with the obvious – God didn’t want this to be that mysterious. After all, Martin Luther, John Calvin and others figured it out 500 years ago and founded the Protestant reformation on it.
          The next (7th) kingdom is the revived roman empire or the EU.
          Only one left to go and “It is of the seventh.” This will be the revived HOLY Roman Empire – the Vatican joined with the EU – not a stretch of the imagination and the Pope is already working towards that.
          Every beast follows the previous one. All in a perfect line. Smooth as silk. No need to jump to a new religion or a different empire. God is only concerned with his own church. He’s not coming back to fix the Muslim, Hindu or Buddhist faiths. He’s got enough problems in his own. Keep it simple and it all fits in place.
          Finally, as for the so called “New World Order” there is no scripture to support this. People believe that since the Antichrist will enforce his “mark” and most believe the mark will be a complicated world-wide scheme to chip or barcode every person on the planet, that the Antichrist must be a great political power – head of a one-world government.
          But consider this – if the pope is the Antichrist and his mark is forced Sunday worship and his kingdom is revived rome (EU) how easy would it be to demand Sunday worship in such an “empire?”
          In case you haven’t heard, the council of Bishops and Cardinals recently met in South America and suggested exactly that! Their agenda includes not allowing worship on any other day! (So far no penalty of death has been suggested but give them time and power and see what happens).
          Anyway, I don’t see a New World Order forming anytime soon – or ever for that matter. A one-world government won’t fly when you have China, Islam, Africa, the US, EU etc. all together under one law and leader.
          Also, if the world gets together in peace how will the end time wars take place. The idea of a united world flies against the world at war we see in prophesy.
          I can see the EU and the Vatican linking up, but not the whole world. Keep it simple and it all fits in place.
          Oh, as for the Antichrist coming in the name of Jesus, he himself said “Many will come in my name.” referring to the end time Antichrist and others. I believe he meant every Pope including the last one – the anti-pope. The popes have always been considered to be Jesus Christ – Vicars of the Son of God. Catholics will tell you that Christ is not coming for a millennium rule – his kingdom is here now under the auspices of the popes.
          Check out the prophesy of St. Malachy. He predicted the last 111 popes with perfect accuracy. The current pope is the last numbered pope. There will be one more – Peter the Roman, the only named by name. His reign will be during the tribulation after which the “…The seven hilled city will be destroyed and the terrible judge will judge his people. The End.”
          Most experts believe it either refers to the end of the church or the end of the world. If he is correct, then the seven-hilled city MUST be Rome. And he will be judging His people, not the Islamists. End of the mystery folks – straight from the catholic church itself (or at least from one of its saints.)

          Check it out and tell me what you think.

      • Just like to state to everyone that in Islam, Muslisms do in fact believe in Jesus. But not as the son of God, but as a Prophet. Muslisms believe when Jesus comes back all Christians will have to become Muslim. However in Christianity it states you must believe Jesus is the son of God and if you don’t, you do not believe in him at all.
        This is a interesting fact I have learnt from both Islam and Christian people.
        Another interesting thing I know is that their is a statement in the Bible their will be 2 beings claiming to be the one true Christ. One Christ will be true the other false. Apparently, the Muslism I hear are expecting Jesus as well. I think this False Christ is the one that will fool the world and cause much blood shed and even stage the murder of the legally elected Pope to place himself as Pope in the Vatican.

        • I know the Qur’an pretty well and I understand what they believe about Jesus and the he will return with their savior the Mahdi. The Mahdi will destroy the Jews and Christ will either convert or kill all the Christians. Wonderful prophesy all and all, if you’re Islamic. The only problem is the Qur’an is a total crock if shit and we should not pay one bit of attention to it. It won’t happen!

      • Just Like to say in the Bible it mentions about believeing in Jesus as the son of God and if you don’t you just do not believe in him at all. The interesting thing is Islam only see’s Christ as a Prophet and is also expecting Jesus return and have a attitude I heard from a Muslim that everyone will have to become Muslim. Hence, those whom won’t will simply in Islamic style will have to be put to death. However, the Jews also believe Christ is only a Prophet as well, but their not stating mass murder for anyone that doesn’t believe in their faith. Another interesting fact is Communism doesn’t believe in religion and very much a dictatorship. Further, at present time in Germany Nazism is on the rise again and getting stronger.

        • You are right on about Islam. I hope the become converted after the war of Gog (Ez 38-39) when God makes himself know to the entire world after destroying a huge Muslim army and their homelands. By the time the tribulation starts they could be completely out of the picture.
          As for Nazi Germany, I believe there will be another Hitler who will take over the entire EU and start WW3. I believe this man will be the King of the North who wipes out the King(s) of the south in the first battle of Daniel. There is actually a lot of prophesy about the rise of the 4th reich if you understand the symbolism. Plus it doesn’t take much imagination to think that Germany might start yet another world war. Once again, current events are falling right into place worth bible prophecy. I’m giving it 16 years to the reign of the Antichrist so that should be just the right amount of time for Germany to rise and the middle east to get nukes and for the oil to start to run out (it started this year actually) and then all hell will break loose.
          And lets not forget the natural disasters, diseases, pestilences etc. The 7 seals are about to be opened. We’re almost there!

  87. Also are u aware that tho, as james mentioned, the time of the 10 contries in the past, the catholic pope and EU r in works 2 form a New World Order which includes makin it a 10 country world????

    Thats a FACT..look it up!

    • hi Lin,

      I acknowledge that the Catholic interpretation is a popular viewpoint that has much support. I was just looking at alternative views.

    • I find it interesting that you mention that Lin, because when you think of the World Order, I wander about the Euro Currency and how a lot of the European countries are using it these days as if they were not many countries but one. Could this be a small sign of a sinister little step for someone Pschopathic enough and intelligently mad to use it to their advantage.

      • I believe that the so called New World Order will simply be the European Union 9revived Roman Empire) and that the last (8th) king of revelation will be the combination of it and the Vatican thus restoring the Holy Roman Empire – the first beast of revelation.
        So were nearly there already!

        • You know another interesting think on my mind being Catholic is that it is possible, that the last truely elected Pope of the Catholic Church will most likely be murdered, for the next false Pope to sit in. I think it will be a person whom forces himself in and makes himself Pope. Something like when Napoleon Bonaparte took the crown of the Pope and Crown himself which is very arrogant. So this Pope will be arrogant as well and bring forth a new relgion.

          • You may be right. I heard a long time ago that the last pop would be known as the anti-pope, an obvious reference to the anti-christ. Just remember that Satan can take over a Pope as easily as anyone else and he probably took over many of them during the dark ages and inquisition.
            All we know is his name will be Peter, so look for that.

  88. Hi again..

    And i repect that..

    Another interestin view is the 1 about Prince charles..the passage,”The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.”apparently matches up 2 him because his coat of arms has each of those anuimals on it..or sumthin along those lines lol.. didnt do much research on that view, feel free 2 check it out..

    • hi Lin

      When I read “mouth like a lion” I think of mahmoud ahmadinejad, and his big mouth.

      • Hi Marianne

        His mouth is amazing! It interesting to hear his words how after the Crusaders considered to “kill the infidels” (Muslims), hundreds of years ago that know in the present Islamic fundamentalists call Jihad (holy war) in otherwords “kill infidels” (West) using similar words in the past by Crusders coming out of the mouths in the East is just plain war cyr hijacking.
        However, this Iranian Mahmound Ahmadinejad has some real eyebrow lifting and shocking ideas. His words are just plain “genocide”. The edicts of his Ayatollah Ali Khamenei to “wipe right of the map Isreal” and to know that he is also the same man whom call the United States “the Great Satan”. Thus, it is this Ahmadinejad whom believes in the Shia doctine that this 12th Mahdi will turn up when the world is out of control and in war as his sacred duty to spread to the globe his holy jihad and end the west and forcefully convert the world to his Islam. Hence, this is why he is so directing his attentions and striving desperately, absolutely and hellbent in gaining large numbers of nuclear arms. The ridicules and foolish thing is that Russia is selling weapons to Iran the very people whom wouldn’t mind backstabbing them in the futher. Anyway when it comes to Revelations and you hear people like this one can’t stop thinking of mass and extreme worldly problems with religion and government bodies at each others throats.

    • Sorry, but those are the first 3 kingdoms mentioned by Daniel. Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece only in reverse order since John was looking backward in time, not forward like Daniel.. The 4th of course was Rome, but John was already in Rome and was describing how it had devoured and taken on some of the aspects of the 3 previous empires. But this beast (always an empire, not a man) was not the current Rome of John but the future Holy Roman Empire which consisted of 10 separate kingdoms overseen by the emperor and the Pope, who crowned the emperors.
      Also, this beast was dealt a deadly blow (Napoleon – 1798) but will be revived again soon as the Vatican and the European Union (revived Rome) are joined into what many believe will be a new world order. But to recreate the first beast, only Europe is needed – not the rest of the world. That ain’t gonna happen folks.
      In case you didn’t know, Charles is the last in the line of the descendants of King David – he represents the house of Israel. The royals still use the actual coronation chair as King David and the holy stone known as Jacob’s pillar for their coronation. When the real King David is resurrected Charles will abdicate the throne to him. He is certainly not the Antichrist, if that’s what you were inferring.
      Check that out!

      • You know what’s interesting I heard this rumour that Prince Charles had actually became Muslim as he meet the mufti of Cyprus Shaykh Nazim Adil 1993. Apparently, he has been allways visiting mosques, even dressed up in your typical Islamic clothes and have lectured about the virtues of Islam at Oxford. However, theirs no proof that Prince Charles had turned Muslim, but their also no proof that he hasn’t also. Moreover, another interesting rumour is that Prince Charles had received a micro chip implant under the skin which can track a person. Accordingly, about his sons William and Harry, as I was growing up they were allways saying that they did not want to be a King of England, they just wanted to be average males and that is why Queen Elizabeth is also grooming Beatrice to take the thrown. Finally, Queen Elizabeth attitude over the years has seemed to be one of displeasure and unhappiness at Prince Charles behaviour and even looked disgusted at times, it is almost like she doesn’t want her son to be a King.

        • paper doll,

          i cant speak about the muslim rumor but as 4 the micro chip, its not jus a rumor..if u go 2 youtube u’ll c footage of charles an his sons bein implanted with the chip..

  89. Hey James,

    I’m sry but this should be said..With all this debate in here, i feel that the bigger picture is bein overshadowed..Whatever ur interpretation, mine, or Marianne’s, it is brilliant that ppl r openin their eyes an wanting 2 c the truth. The book of Daniel says that in the last days there will b a vast increase in knowledge..You may have a piece figured out an sum1 else may have another..AN THATS OK..all pieces r needed 4 that same puzzle and if nothing else we can all agree on 1 thing..No matter if we figure out if we’re in the last days an who is the enemy, we will never find out wen the last day will b..until that day of course.”So be prepared, for you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. Just as a man can prevent trouble from thieves by keeping watch for them, so you can avoid trouble by always being ready for My unannounced return.” Keep researchin, preach the truth an keep praying an livin in God is all we can do..

    • I think everyone who searches for meaning in bible prophesy gets the big picture. If we didn’t we wouldn’t take the time and effort to try to figure out the details. Jesus commands us to prophesy so I’m sure he wanted us to figure out the meaning behind it. My method is to go with the obvious and check the history books to confirm or refute my ideas. That’s why I tend to keep it in Gods church and his known kingdoms and try not to jump around the planet looking for explanations. I also assume it is about His laws and not the laws of man and the Antichrist will come from the church and not a civil government.
      But you Islamic AC believers, don’t worry, there will be retribution against them in the war of Gog and Magog (Ez: 38,39). But only because they attack Israel, not because they are a false church. God doesn’t care about false religions unless his people begin to believe in them. This is why he will destroy the elements of the Babylon Mystery religion (paganism) that exist in the Christian churches to this day. Google “Paganism in the Christian church” and see just how rampant it is. The ask yourself, if you were God, would you rid these things from your church when you come to reign over it? I’m sure he will. He will destroy the Harlot and return the church to the way it was when he left it – just like the church of Philadelphia he praises in the beginning of Revelation.
      And don’t forget, when the AC arrives and forces his mark, taking it means spiritual death, even if you are a firm believer. “Many will be deceived.”
      The devil is in the details so lets get it right.

      • hi James,

        But look at a map of the ancient roman empire….much of present Europe is missing.

        http://www.roman-empire.net/maps/map-empire.html

        Half of the modern countries that were part of the empire are now Islamic.

        • But all the original 10 heads (except for the three Aryan kingdoms destroyed by the early papal state) are still included – plus 17 more. The revived empire is larger than the original.
          Where is this new Turkish or revived Ottoman empire today? Will it be here soon? Are there plans in the works? And what do they have to do with the kingdoms and beasts of Daniel and revelation? There is no continuity, no direct relationship to what John was talking about.
          Each one must follow right out of the previous one, from Babylon to Rome to the present. And it must have to do with the church that Jesus left behind – the first three chapters of Rev, are all about His churches and whether they were doing good or bad. It sets the agenda for the rest of the book.
          Keep it as simple as possible and the truth will jump out at you.

        • Oh yes in ancient pagan Rome they sure liked power and eat up almost the whole of Europe and had a lot of the Middle East as well. I know they never went near my forefathers land Scotland (to wild and untamed people) nor were they even able to actually totally make Germany theirs.

    • Antoher interesting thing that I hear at present time going around which is just equal to a trickle in the sea at the moment, is that all the Gods of every religion is the same God as Christianity with similiar beliefs, going around. Hence, I heard something similar from a Muslim Leb going to my Technical College that went something like this “that the God of Christianity is the same God of Islam” or ” Christianity and Islam believe in the same God”. I thought No! it isn’t and don’t say they are!. Sure their are many religions in the world with God/Gods/Goddesses and great belief in God. However their Gods are not the same God as in my Christian faith nor are they he.

      Thus, such a notion brings about the idea of a World Order aswell and a connection to the suppose women that sits on 7 hills. I wander will this beast that will suck in the whole world in it’s evil be one that presents all the Gods/Goddesses in every religion all over the world as truly one. Thus presenting himself not just as this false God, but also faluse Pope/prophet and leader dictator.

      • You know there is a worldwide religious conference coming up next month in Brazil in which every religion in the world will be represented and the goal is to try to all come together to find common grounds that could be the basis for a new universal religion. I don’t see something that radical ever happening. I believe that the new world religion applies only to Christianity – the rest don’t matter. This is already happening – just follow the Vatican news and you will see how almost all the Protestants are coming back to the mother church – under the Pope as leader. If this is the prophecy, than it has been going on for ten years already. I don’t see anything else likely to happen in time for the second coming.
        And the new world order is already here. I believe it is only the revived roman empire that will be combined with the new church (EU) forming the 8th king of revelation – a revived Holy Roman Empire. That is also in the works so there is very little else that needs to happen to fulfil that part of the prophecy.
        We are almost there!

  90. Theres just so many links connecting the catholic religion as the opposition here…I am a catholic myself and i understand the need 2 defend our religion but its plain as day that sumthin is wrong here..Fellow Catholics who r defending the faith here, lets 4get all interpretations an go back 2 basics…Why would Our pope tell us do not go 2 jesus Christ 2 confess our sins..go 2 him..HE sed this in the early days of bein deemed the Pope! What gives him that right??? Or lets get even more basic..2 the commandments we go :-books r being kept frm the bible,, this is not the will of God, We worship idols, this is not the will of God, we confess our sins 2 man, this is not the will of God,these ppl have taken endless lives!! Are we that blind 2 believe the catholic religion is doin the works of God????? Do we kno POpe John Paul II history???? This man is not a man of God ..It is sad but we catholics need 2 wake up!

    • Hi Lin

      I think we see this now in all churches. The pastors expect all to go to them for the answers, instead of God. This makes them necessary for salvation, etc. and justifies a nice salary.

      • sadly true..

      • You’re right. Remember that the Woman (Whore) is the mother of many harlots so most of the offspring churches (i.e.. Protestants) will still take the mark of the beast because they refuse to keep the true commandments of God. Jesus will fix all of them when he returns but the Catholics will suffer the most corrections of all.

    • Conggrats Lin, you are on your WY to the truth. I was a catholic until recently when I got interested in prophecy and how accurate it is, especially if you find the correct interpretation. It took me 6 months to finally denounce my old faith and pick up a new one and I am so happy I was able to learn the truth before it was too late.
      You know, the current pope is going to be the last one before the anti-pope (Antichrist). The next one will be know by the name Peter the Roman and he will preside over the church during the tribulation and thru its eventual destruction, this according to the catholic St. Malachy who predicted the last 111 popes with perfect accuracy. His vision showed him the church’s destruction and it sure looks like he was right.
      God bless you in your search for the truth.

      • James, whe can i read mor on st malachy and his vision? seems interestin!!

      • Actually, in Catholism it is written in the back of the Bible Revelations, so it is not like the Vatican did not know of things to be in the future and even sister Lucy (Fatima story) a Catholic knew of the Tribulation the Catholic church is going to go through. I Think about how this Peter the Roman will come to Power. I think that he will force himself into this Vatican power and by doing that this will end the Vatican in destruction as it may well be him that murders the last truly elected pope that may well be Benedict. However, I hear things like to pray for the truely elected Pope that he will not be harmed when this Peter the Roman turns up and for the Vatican to weather the rotten storm as best it can until the restoration by the one and only true God. Not the false God.

        • There is a flaw in your logic here. No-one could force himself to become Pope. The church would not respond to strong-arming. He would never be believed or followed. He has no army (except maybe the Mafia?) to keep the Vatican guard from tossing him in the dungeon. Remember, he “comes in peaceably” according to Daniel and fools the whole world. He will look like Christ, not the devil. He’s too smart for that.
          And it will not be him who destroys the church, but God. Babylon is fallen! refers to the pagan aspects of the modern church(es). He will return his church to what it was when Jesus left 2000 years ago. He’s after the organization, not the people which is why he calls his people out of it before he returns. Most will probably ignore that call, unfortunately.
          I heard the call a while ago, and I heeded it. I pray you will be able to do the same.

          • No flaw in my logic just misinterpretation here.
            Actually, this person can force himself into the Vatican to be Pope by simply being your all charming fellow at the start like you said untill sucking everyone in. When I say force it doesn’t mean by guns blazing, they’re are plenty of ways of getting what you want, like simply getting someone else to do your dirty business. (Look at Obama how well he specks and does things with such force of tone), Force can be used in so many different ways it doesn’t allways mean physically, it can be mentally or even politically. Also when I say destroys the church, I mean fundamental beliefs of Christianity to set his own ideology in place, but like all things this may well take some time and underhandedness. But we must realize that a organization is also part of it’s people and the people makes up the organisation. No people no organization.

    • Lin I’m Catholic too, never heard of anyone stopping me to go to confession, or reading the Bible. Don’t believe John Paul II is the Anti-Christ although I believe he knows a lot about the predictions of the future of the Church which sister Lucy whom saw Mary (Fatima) revealed to him. I don’ believe the anti-christ will be Benidict eithier. But I do believe something big is coming and nasty, directly targeting the Vatican and Christianity. When you think about it, this Anti-Christ hates Christiantiy in all it’s forms. Therefore with one that has such hate for Christ and thinks only of himself as God over others, what does one do but try to be nice, persuasive, dignified, regal, delicate, attractive, appealing and canning at first then forceful, threatening and demanding to finally violent, agressive and murderous. Thus, I think that the last Pope elected by the Vatican may well be murdered to make way for a false Pope. But I think the world will have to be a lot more of a turbulent place than what it is today.

      • hi Paper Doll

        It looks like there is a bumpy road ahead for all in Christianity, and we have to hold on or fall off the ride.

        Whatever evil one Christian leader gets into, he will have plenty of company from other “faiths” and denominations.

        it is time for a paradigm shift, and not look to leaders for leadership. It is time to look to God only.

      • According to St. Malachy (who predicted the last 111 popes) indicates that the one after Benedict (Peter the Roman) will be the anti-pope and that the catholic church will be destroyed at the end of his reign. We don’t know if he will be an elected pope but I assume so. Otherwise he could not effectively take over the church and all its believers.
        Remember, Satan is clever and knows the bible better than you or I so what he will try to do is to get his followers to do something that will draw Gods wrath (chaps his hide) in the time of the tribulation.
        How better to do that than to get them all to break one or more of His commandments? Difficult?
        Not at all.
        Satan has already infiltrated the early Christian church when the Romans were still in power. They forced them to keep all of their statues and other graven images and made them move the sabbath to their day of SUN worship. The church had to remove the second commandment to cover their asses and pretended they had the power to transfer the sanctity of Saturday to Sunday.
        Now all the anti-pope has to do is make sure everyone goes to a church full of statues, crucifixes, paintings, stained glass windows etc., every Sunday. The current pope has already suggested mandatory Sunday worship for all its members and NO worship on any other days.
        They must understand the prophecy and yet they are doing their darnedest to fulfill it.
        The anti-pope will nothing more than to continue current church policies, only make them mandatory. That will be his Mark of authority.
        Will you be fooled?
        Most true believers will.

        • i think that tho ppl may not believe wat u r sayin, as they hear these words, it becomes a possibility an there4 if an wen these things play out , an it becomes mor an mor obvious, ppl will not b fooled..or i hope so

          Thats y i luv these debates bcuz u hear so many diff views an ur subconcious stores it away..Whatever view is rite, these debates helps us all become the wise 2 the point where we’re not fooled wen most important..

          • Lin,
            I’m glad to hear you say that. I have several catholic friends they swear I’m crazy but refuse to spend the time to read the bible in order to check it out. So I tell them, you may not believe me now but someday soon after I may be gone, hopefully you will see the prophesy playing out just as I said and you will remember what I said and do the right thing.
            If I can make you think about it then I have succeeded in my task.

            • O yea definitely, our mind is a sponge,as much as they may think u crazy all uve told them, tho unknowingly, is stored away so trust me wen i say they’ll make the right decision wen need be..i firmly believe that

            • I find their so many various ideas and possibilites. Their could be in the World a mass of problems converging all together from different angles with Christianity, Islam and Judism having it all out, Communist nations playing up and even natural disasters getting worse than what they are now. In Australia their was a really weird thick red dust storm in the city and surburbs no one has every experienced before, it was like a absolute frightening shock. It was almost a feeling of a Doomsday Scenario.

  91. Hi Paper Doll

    I think you have a good point.

    Restricting ourselves to only one interpretation of anything, when it is a warning, may limit our acceptance of reality when it finally comes to pass.

    This world is getting so evil now, that we have to look everywhere, to see prophecy come to pass on many levels, in many places.

  92. Can i ask every1’s opinion on Christmas?

    • Christmas started out as the birthday of Tammuz, the false messiah perpetrated by his mother Semiramis, wife of Nimrod who built the tower of Babel and founded the city of Babylon. Decorated trees and yule logs were part of the celebration. This is the root of the Mystery Babylon religion – the very religion that is mentioned in revelation which will be destroyed when Christ returns. This is how God feels about Christmas. (And many other pagan practices and holidays that have infiltrated the church. The early church (Popes) sanctified the holiday (then known as Saturnalia in Roman times) to appease the Romans who refused to give up their holiday. So the question you have to ask yourself is do you believe that a man can sanctify a day just because he has the earthly power to do so? Does God bow before the Pope? Catholics believe so, so you wouldn’t be alone, but as for me, I’m not buying it. If you want to celebrate the birth of Jesus then do so on the Feast of Trumpets (late September-early October). That is the day he was born and it will be the day he returns also. If we will celebrate it after he returns, do you really think he will let us keep doing it on December 25th? Christmas will go bye-bye soon so you may as well get used to the fact. And for me, I’m not going to offend God by having anything to do with anything pagan. Its a tough choice I know, but you either love tradition or you love God. Take your pick.

  93. pagan holiday…..but it got converted into the birthday of Jesus..

    nothing wrong with a birthday celebration….but its roots taint the occasion

  94. I have no firm conclusion one way or another as to the identity of Babylon in end times prophecy – of the numerous cities which sit on seven hills, Jerusalem, Washington DC and Rome feel like the most likely, although Constantinople/Istanbul (former capital of the Eastern Roman Empire fell to Islam a thousand years ago), Moscow/Eastern Orthodox patriarchate or even Athens/Greek Orthodox patriarchate could also be possible.

    Worth mentioning that, with the final ratification of the Lisbon Treaty, the European Union is interesting, not least because (a) It sees itself as the successor to the Holy Roman Empire; (b) it is a fabrication of US interests working through individual member states and the UN to bring it into being, against the democratic will of its citizens; (c) the image of Europa riding the bull (Zeus) it its emblem.

    EU law-making powers are concentrated in the hands of 27 commissioners, appointed from the governing parties of each member state. The number of these commissioners will be reduced…..interesting to see if they end up with 10.

    • hi SJB

      The identity of Babylon and the rest of all this does seem to get more complicated the more it is discussed. The way things are going, we should find out something “soon,” although “soon” is also hard to define.

  95. Lucifer of Isaiah 14-4..That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! He is the KING OF BABYLON and is also the antichrist to come.. verse 12-16..
    His queen is shown in Rev 18-7..How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.Lucifer is king of Babylon and Babylon is his queen ..counterfeit of Christ and his bride…

  96. Thanks for giving us a venue for sharing our thoughts. If anyone still believes Rome or EU, or the Church is the beast etc., has to be ignorant. I use to as well, but now any one who seeks the truth has to understand its all about militant Islam.
    Now I think its about Turkey reviving the caliph. (antiChrist) Iran will accept that. Even though they are Shias, and waiting for their 12 th Imam Maudi. Same person. I read that Turkey and Iran are becoming friends. All prophecy roads are now leading to Turkey. Also, Gina made since about future prophecy being the Northern tribes of Israel. One place they were taken was U.S. I think Ez.38-39 is talking about Gog demon prince of ?. Iran, Turkey etc. invading U.S. Also the Septiguant version of Amos 7, says Gog is a demon in charge of the locust that come out of the pit. Same as Rev.

  97. Who are the 7 heads? It appears to me that in Revelations 17-9 five have fallen one now is and one yet to come. In Daniel u have in Chapt. 7-3; 4 beast- Lion (1 head) bear (1head) Leopard (4 heads) and one other. this makes 7 heads- the seculicid empire still existed at the time of the writing of Revelations. Why does it have to be Rome? It is a prophecy -not a history lession? With this scenerio the next beast in the area would be the Ottaman Empire- what say you?

    • It looks like you are confusing some of the terms used here.
      The “heads” of John are the same as the “horns” of Daniel. These refer to the remnant kingdoms of the original Roman empire. There were originally ten but three were conquered and destroyed.
      The beasts are the empires, starting with Babylon and continuing thru Rome. After that there are only “kings” or kingdoms actually – they don’t refer to individuals.
      And the prophecy is about the civilizations and their influence on the church, not the land area they came from.
      Check my article on “Is the beast Rome” for more info and details.

  98. If I may continue- the Harlot seems to me to be Isreal. in Matthew, Jesus23:37 (Yeshua) says “Jesrusalem – the city who kills the prophets” and then in Revelations 17:18 it speaks of the “great city” and then in Revelations 18:24 it ends with in her is all of the “blood of the saints” Christ symbolicly refers to Israel as both the Bride of Christ as well as the Harlot
    Cathy

    • Hi Cathy,

      I agree with you about the Ottoman – Selucid – Empire.

      I am not sure yet about the Harlot.

      In biblical times, the only one was Israel. By God’s definition, one had to first know Him to then be unfaithful. Israel was the only nation to know God.

      Since then, we have many more versions within Christianity, paganism, Islam and the rest of the world.

    • The woman can’t be Israel the nation because God would never destroy his chosen people. Now the bible also talks about “spiritual Israel” or the Christian church and this will be the ultimate bride of Christ. But first it must be purged of paganism. That is the whore of Babylon. (Babylon = paganism)
      Israel will be taught about Jesus and brought into Christianity but it will not be destroyed.
      The woman is the Roman Catholic church and the “great city” is Rome. It is the “City of Seven Hills” and the church of Rome sits on seven mountains (hills).
      Everything fits, you just don’t understand why. Once you get the why it will all make sense.

  99. Have 2 agree with james here..God wud not destry Israel as they were is chosen ppl..The book of Hosea is proof of that in my opinion..

  100. Harlot is right there right under our noses.. She was in fact is still one and the same from the old testament and new testament… Rome where the pope is currently inside that church is itself the MOTHER harlot.. Pope knew.. and announced out to gather daughters back inside… and therefore, it is not Israel that God would destory.. but north and east… Your looking at Amercia who is now with that kind of president who removed several from the Constitution. That is a warning sign.. watch closely… President already removed the freedom of speech… since he ingored the people… He also removed our rights… No matter how loud we shout at him.. He would just walk on us if we are the graves.. All I am saying.. watch closely cross world.. I see tension in the air.. so tight wound together and about to snap into half enough to start the WW3.. I can feel and taste it in the air.
    Secondly, it is the spiritual war we are all struggling now… because they ( demons ) are out and prowling already.. so arm yourself well under God..
    Thirdly, Rome does have ONE back up is.. in French.. two chruches… two beasts… why does it remind me about its history ?? And why do I feel that history is repeating itself ??

    Bless you all. I enjoy reading 😉

  101. has any1 ever realised the statue of liberty crown has 7 horns? or that her torch is symbol of the freemasons?

    • Hi Lin,

      Yes I acknowledge the statue of liberty and its origins. Unfortunately, masonic symbols are everywhere in the world.

      Wouldn’t it have been wonderful to see a statue of Jesus in the New York Harbor instead?

      • Yes! I just love how in Rio de Janeiro they have such a symbol of Jesus on this large Corcovado mountain as if he’s standing right on top of the world.

    • And the numbers on a roulette wheel add up to 666. So what? Will the Antichrist come from Las Vegas?
      The woman is a church and the US has no state religion. Sorry, nothing fits.

  102. o james..relax.. i was just mentionin the freemasons..

  103. i found this link..it has reasons proving the assumption of rome being wrong..plz read it an share ur thoughts..james, u kno alot about this so i look 4ward 2 ur reply..

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/3859752/The-Antichrist-is-Not-the-Papal-System

  104. Hi James
    I tried watching that webside, but I have a problem with downloading. I end up having stops and starts and then the download begins again. My computer is a Windows XP. Anyway with what I’ve seen it looks interesting, although I did not agree about the article on Australia about “peaceful, abundant and lucky country”. This is advertising rhetoric known by Australians as just a gimmick to lure immigrants, tourism and money for politians and business people that’s getting something. The Truth is Australia for centuries hasn’t been all that peaceful, abundant or lucky. For 10 years their was a depression, We’ve had the plague, violence with aboriginals and the other way round, riots by other racial groups and relgions, extreme weather and rising costs. However, me and my bestfriend have agreed on that something is wrong with society in Australia as people are getting more badly behaved and evil doing in nature.

    • Further, I’d like to state that in a couple years time Australia will be unlivable and overgrowded if they keep migrating people in large numbers here and accepting refugees by the load. People think that Australia is a big country, however they don’t realize that the large part of Australia is desert and the livable parts are near the ocean areas. The government is ignoring the peoples cries to decrease immigration, deport non Australians with criminal records, lower food prices, bring back Australian labels, prevent people we call DO GOODERS in inerfering with the discipline of children, even make sentences for serious criminal offences harder. Their has also been a statement that the increase of population will bring hardship and great proverty, but politicans are doing foolish actions and saying silly things like our MR Rudd “we just need the right balance” and Tony Burke with his Population Control. Even my Father is saying that Australia has gone to the dogs and heading down hill because of poor Management, greed and strength to act. When I walk out the door and certain suburbs I wander to myself I’m I in a foreign country.

  105. Hello Thanks for this site- it’s needed!!!
    Here is some interesting writing from-http://www.gregwolf.com/pink/antichrist/antichrist2.htm

    Dan. 9 shows that he (anti Christ) will make his seven-years’ Covenant with the Jews at the beginning of the last of the seventy “weeks” which is to bring in “the end” of Israel’s sins and “finish the transgression” (9: 24). If the time of the Antichrist’s manifestation is yet future then it necessarily follows that Rome cannot be the Antichrist.
    10. The Antichrist will deny both the Father and the Son: “He is Antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22). This scripture does not speak of virtual, but of actual and formal denial. But Rome has always maintained in her councils and creeds, her symbols of faith and worship, that there are three persons in the Godhead. Numerous and grievous have been her departures from the teaching of Holy Scripture, yet since the time of the Council of Trent (1563 A.D.) every Roman Catholic has had to confess “I believe in God the Father…and in the Lord Jesus Christ….and in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, which proceedeth from the Father and the Son”.
    As a system Romanism is a go-between. The “priest” stands between the sinner and God; the `confessional’ between him and the throne of grace; `penance’ between him and godly sorrow; the `mass’ between him and Christ; and `purgatory’ between him and Heaven. The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son: he confesses himself to be both the servant of God and His worshipper; he blesses the people not in his own name, but in that of the Holy Trinity.
    11. The Antichrist is described as the one “who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess. 2:4). This is what the popes have never done. Not even Leo ventured to deify himself or supersede God. The popes have made many false and impious claims for themselves; nevertheless, their decrees have been sent forth as from the “vice-gerent” of God, the “vicar” of Christ – thus acknowledging a Divine power above himself.
    12. In Rev. 13:2,4 we read, “And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority…and they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast”. By comparing these verses with Rev. 12:9 we learn that the Dragon is none other than Satan himself. Now by almost common consent this first beast of Rev. 13 is the Antichrist. If, then, Romanism be the Antichrist, where, we may ask, shall we turn to find anything answering to what we read of here in Rev. 13:4 – “And they worshipped the dragon, which gave power unto the beast”.
    13. This same 13th chapter of Revelation informs us that the Antichrist (the first Beast) shall be aided by a second Beast who is denominated “the False Prophet” (Rev. 19:20). The False Prophet, we are told “exerciseth all the power of the First Beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the First Beast” (Rev. 13:12). If the First Beast be the Papacy, then who is the False Prophet who “causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship” her?
    14. Again; we are told that this False Prophet shall say to them that dwell on the earth “that they should make an image to the Beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live” (Rev. 13:14). Further, we are told, “And he had power to give life unto the image of the Beast, that the image of the Beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast should be killed” (Rev 13:15). Where do we find anything in Popery which in anywise resembles this?
    If, then,the pope is the Antichrist, then it necessarily follows that all who have believed his lying claims, that all who have received him s the vicar of Christ, that all who have worshipped him, will be eternally lost. But the writer would not for a moment make any such sweeping assertion. He, together with thousands of others, believes firmly that during the centuries there have been many Roman Catholics who, despite much ignorance and superstition, have been among that number that have exercised faith in the blood of Christ, and that lived and died resting on the finished work of Christ as the alone ground of their acceptance before God, and who because of this shall be forever with the Lord.
    20. That the Antichrist and the Papacy are totally distinct is unequivocally established by the teaching of Rev. 17. Here we learn that there shall be ten kings who will reign “with the Beast” (v. 12), and act in concert with him (vv. 13,16). Then we are told “these shall hate the Whore (the papacy), and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire” (v. 16). Instead of the Antichrist and the Papacy being identical, the former shall destroy the latter; whereas, the Antichrist shall be destroyed by Christ Himself, see 2 Thess. 2:8.

    • You are right about one thing – the pope is not the antichrist. In fact there is no antichrist. The word antichrist never appears in prophecy. It is used by John to describe everyone on earth who denies Christ, including Jews, Muslims and Hindi. There is no evil man called the antichrist. In prophecy a beast is a kingdom, so the beasts of Revelation 13 are not people except that there is an “image” or spokesperson for the beast(s) which is the false prophet. He is the man of sin that goeth into perdition etc. He is not antichrist, but a false Christ.
      The first beast/kingdom of Revelation 13 is the one that replaced the former three (the leopard-Greece, the bear-Medo-Persia, and the lion-Babylon as the ruling world empire. In Daniel it is Rome but in Revelation it is the Holy Roman Empire which it morphed into. The Holy Roman Empire was run by the Vatican, who after the Holy Roman Empire was ended in 1898, became the second beast of Revelation 13, with the pope as its head – the Vicar of Christ. The word vicar means substitute, and the pope, according to the catholic catechism, is the earthly replacement for Christ who rules in his place till the second coming.
      His title in Latin – Vicarius Filii Dei – adds up to 666 in Roman numerals. He is the false prophet, not the antichrist. He also claims the title “Holy Father” – a term Jesus only used to describe His father in heaven. The term is truly blasphemous. The church is Babylon and will be destroyed or at least cleansed of all of its pagan practices and holidays (Christmas, Easter, St. Valentines day etc.) when Christ returns. The church (beast) and the office of the pope (false prophet) will be destroyed forever.
      The ten kings represent the countries of Europe who will unite with the Vatican for a short time in the near future, granting much power to the beast (Vatican) and its false prophet, the pope. This will be during the tribulation, but by the end of the tribulation these nations will catch on to the treachery and turn against the Vatican and the last pope (the next one, in fact according to Saint Malachy).
      When viewed in this light all the pieces fit together properly, but the so-called antichrist is so ingrained in most peoples minds that they refuse to believe that he doesn’t exist in prophecy. Oh well, that prophecy that says most of God’s people will totally miss the real beasts is proven by the popularity of the concept of an antichrist.
      So I’m sure this reply will be falling on deaf ears but I just thought I’d get it out there anyway. I look forward to your contradictions…
      😉

  106. lets not forget:-
    the woman/whore/city/mystery babylon rides the beast/antichrist/666 which has 10 horns/kings and 7 heads/mountains upon many waters/peoples/multitudes.
    the 10 kings will have power with the beast 1 hour, they will hate
    the whore/woman/city

    wondering if the dragon that gives power to first beast might represent China or is just plain old devil?

    • hi Graeme

      I think the dragon is the devil. We have to wait to see who is going to help him. But we can look around and get a good idea.

      • I’m really into art and I see alot of imagers in sculpture, painting and in architecture were the dragon, snake and what I describe as a creature looking more like some large lizard or Dinosaur represent the Devil being stomped under Jesus feet and his saints as well.

    • Hey, maybe you can answer a question that I’ve had for a while.
      If the antichrist denies the Father and the Son, why would he also claim to be Jesus? This has never made sense to me, maybe you can fill me in, if you’ve figured it out…

      • hi james

        It is not clear or stated that the AC does this. He is just the opposite in character from the true Christ.

        I think this idea comes from the passage that mentions that many false Christs will arise.

        It does not mean that all of them think they are Jesus.

        They just have the “I am god, and your savior, follow me” mentality.

        • In that case explain how 2 billion Christians will all “follow the beast?”
          If the antichrist is Muslim then none of them will follow him.
          I have a big problem following the logic of it all.
          My interpretation avoids these logical conflicts so I question others that I just can’t believe at face value.
          So far, no one has come up with a believable scenario to explain how the prophecies would unfold. Even the movies like “Left Behind” etc, avoid this problem by simply not addressing it within the plot.
          Maybe I should write my own screenplay, eh?
          Bless…

      • Hi James,
        If the AC did choose to call himself Jesus it would make since to me. I say this do the fact the word “Jesus” is actually a mis-transliteration of a Greek mis-transliteration. The Emperor Constatine even mistook Jesus for Apollo, the son of the Greek god Zeus. In Hebrew Yeshua means Salvation while the name Jesus has no intrinsic meaning in English whatsoever.

  107. Be prepared the time is near constantinople will be in greek hands again. it is written in prophecies. read elder paisios a monk from mount athos who died in 1994.

  108. Well done!

    I think you are correct.

    “recep erdogan” in english (latin) gemantria = 666

    You might like this brief…
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/31135892/signs-2010v10

    Mike

  109. Hi I found out something very interesting. Apparently although Saddam Hussein is gone now, he was infact spending 500 million dollars to reconstruct and restore the ancient city of Babylon, right on top of the residence and ruins of Nebuchadnezzar’s palace. However, although Hussein’s plans were interrupted it looks like I hear that these execution plans to rebuild Babylon has still continued. Further, their is this fellow Amadinejad of the Islamic Messianic cult who also believes that they have to rebuild Babylon and destroy Israel.

    • hi kitti

      Since it does not matter to this bishop what name is used for God, then why doesn’t he recommend that Muslims call God Yahweh? I agree with this commentator.

  110. Ellen Gould White: Hillary Diane Blythe IV; & Lord Jesus Christ all add up to 666; The Last Super painting is loaded w/ 6’s I belive diVinci thought Jesus Christ to be an anti-christ. The NAS says 666 is more than one mathematical process!

  111. praise the lord

  112. After reading some of the posts here, I think I should of posted Jacob Prash’s video here instead of on

    Lucia reveals the 3rd secret of Fatima?

    I was raised an Episcopalian. I’m a nondenominational, born again Evangelical Christian now. Americans and Christians don’t know their history. Whatever I have learned I learned watching movies, however slanted they are and picking up a book here and there. Piecing it together. Most Americans don’t know about our second President: John Adams until HBO did a 7 part series. ( I read the book and watched the movie). You want to know why he didn’t get the credit he desearved for 200 years. He moved out of the White House the night before the inauguaration of Thomas Jefferson and he didn’t attend it. He only served one term unlike George Washington. Adams was brillant. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams worked on the final draft of the “Declaration of Independence”.

    HBO did a series on “The Tudors” I visited England back in the 90’s. I wanted to learn more. So I started watching this series until someone said it was soft porn. I do have some books I picked up on my trip there on Henry th 8th. The more I learned about Europe and how the Church of England was founded, made me feel that if I didn’t believe Jesus is truly the Son of God, I sure wouldn’t want to be a Christian.

    Episcopalians don’t know their Bible. They read the common book of prayer, which they recite verses over and over again. I had it memorized and it didn’t mean a thing to me. It reminds me of chanting like in the far east religions, where you empty out your mind, only to let demons come in.

    Did you know the Buddhists have prayer beads just like the Catholics? I had a patient once who was going to surgery and he refused to take his prayer beads off. That’s how I know.

    It’s my M.O. to get off the track.

  113. Chuck Missler is the one who really opened up the Old Testament and the book of Revelation for me. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1993/32/

    Before studying under him, I didn’t understand it. It’s didn’t flow. In Revelation he says the seven Churches are

    “These were actual, historic churches.” but “These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history”

    Seven Mysterious Letters

    by Chuck Missler
    The Book of Revelation

    Revelation is the only book in the Bible that promises a special blessing to the reader.1 (Many passages tell us to read the Bible in general terms. Only one book has the audacity to say, in effect, Read me; I’m special.)

    Early in my teens, I encountered a Bible teacher who heralded that The Book of Revelation is written in code; but every code is explained somewhere else in the Bible.

    That really caught my attention. And that discovery changed my entire life.

    The Seven Letters

    Ask any Bible student how many epistles (letters) are in the New Testament. He will probably answer 21 : 13 authored by Paul, plus Hebrews, which appears anonymous;2 and the seven “general epistles” by Peter, James, John, and Jude.

    We usually overlook the seven most important letters: the seven authored by Jesus personally. For many reasons, these seven letters, comprising Chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation, are probably the most important part of this book for you and me.

    Why These Seven?

    There were many other churches at that time that would seem to be more historically significant than the seven that Jesus addressed: the churches at Jerusalem, Rome, Galatia, Corinth, Antioch, Colossae, Iconium, Lystra, Derbe, Miletus, to name a few. Why did Jesus select just these seven Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea?

    Four Levels of Meaning

    There appear to be at least four levels of application to these letters:

    Local: These were actual, historic churches, with valid needs. Archaeological discoveries have confirmed this.
    Admonitory: In each of the letters there appears the key phrase, “Hear what the Spirit says to the churches”. Note the plural, churches. It turns out that each of the letters applies to all churches throughout history. As we understand the sevenfold internal structure, the uniquely tailored messages, and the specific admonitions in each of the letters, we discover that any church can be “mapped” in terms of these seven composite profiles.
    Homiletic: Each of the letters also contains the phrase, “He that hath an ear let him hear…” Doesn’t each of us “have an ear”? Each letter applies to each of us. There are some elements of each of these seven “churches” in each of us. Thus, this may be the most practical application of the entire Book of Revelation.
    Prophetic: The most amazing discovery, however, of these seven letters is their apparent prophetic application. These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history.
    These letters describe, with remarkable precision, the unfolding of all subsequent church history. If these letters were in any other order, this would not be true!

    These letters appear to fill the interval between the 69th and 70th “weeks” of Daniel 9. The Book of Acts covers about 30 years; these two chapters of the Book of Revelation cover the next 1,900 years.

    Seven Key Elements

    A key aspect to understanding the letters is to grasp the structure of their design. A careful examination of the letters reveals seven key elements in their design:

    The meaning of the name of the church being addressed (see below);
    The title of Jesus, each chosen relevant to the message to that particular church;
    The commendation of things that have been done well;
    The “criticism” of things that need attention;
    The exhortation, specific to the condition of the particular church;
    The promise to the “overcomer” included with each letter;
    The key phrase, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.”
    The Meaning of Names

    Epheses: The Desired One
    Smyrna: Myrrh; Death
    Pergamos: Mixed Marriage
    Thyatira: Semiramis
    Sardis: Remnant
    Philadelphia: Brotherly Love
    Laodicea: People Rule
    It is also interesting that this key phrase in element 7 is the final element in the last four letters, but appears before the “Promise to the Overcomer” (element 6) in the first three, leaving the promises as a kind of post script after the body of the letters themselves. This design suggests that the first three letters and the last four may share some particular characteristic. [It is also interesting that only the last four letters include explicit references to our Lord’s Second Coming.]

    The Missing Elements

    Once the basic structure is evident, one also notices that two of the letters, Smyrna and Philadelphia, have no Criticism, Element 4. That’s encouraging for them.

    Also, two of the letter, Sardis and Laodicea, have no Commendation, Element 5. That’s rather grim.

    The Prophetic View

    If these seven letters really do include a preview of all church history, then where are we now? Are we, indeed, in the period suggested by the letter to Laodicea?

    Judge for yourself.

    Other Parallels

    Also, is there an intended parallel between these seven letters of Jesus Christ and His seven “Kingdom Parables” of Matthew 13?

    An what about Paul’s letters? It is interesting that Paul signed 13 epistles; but 3 of these had “duplicate” addressees: Corinthians, Thessalonians, and Timothy. That is 13 – 3 = 10 addressees.

    But three addressees were individuals: Titus, Timothy, and Philemon. 10 – 3 = 7. Paul wrote seven churches.

    Is there a possible parallel between the seven churches Paul wrote to and the seven that Jesus addressed in Revelation 2 & 3?

    A detailed study of these seven letters exceeds the scope of this brief glimpse. These remarks have been included to stimulate you to take a closer look at these two chapters and conduct your own careful analysis.

    In addition to the practical insights from the letters, you will also see another of the many examples demonstrating the evidence of careful design: the Bible consists of 66 books, written by 40 authors over thousands of years–and yet bears the clear evidence of supernatural engineering.

    T

  114. Marianne;
    I didn’t know whether to post this one here or on Rick Warren’s post

    False prophets and teachers – characteristics


    There’s so many place this You Tube could have been plugged in. It covers so many subjects. It’s number 5 in a series of 8 on:
    The Royal Red Dragon Bloodlines 2009 Plaese watch and respond. All of these people are blood related. Our President is suppossed to be elected by the people. It’s not supposed to be a dynasty. It may not make a difference to some people but it does to me.

  115. I watched the first video. It was just some bible history. The attempt to connect Obama with the king of Jordan is a long stretch. His name might be Hussein, but many muslims are named that, even those who are not related to Muhammed. Maybe obama will be a significant player, maybe he won’t. But the reasoning is not good on the video as to why.

    I have also considered the King of Jordan and the Hasemites. They are a possibility.

    Click to access 4th-beast-web-4-mt.pdf

    Please do not post a whole video series. Just one as an example. I cannot review all of it…9 -10 minute videos is 90 minutes of viewing.

    While some historical content is correct, it does not mean the conclusions they come to by scattered logic is correct.

    When this much drama is put into something, it suggests a lot of embellishment of truths, so it should not be relied on completely.

  116. I am convinced that the papacy is the ‘antichrist’ movement, remember it is not ‘one man’ as Satan wants you to believe. The Vatican is the only place which is both a church (woman) and a nation (beast). The Vatican sits on many waters has power over a vast amount of followers who don’t believe in birth control (about 1.166 billion, so don’t tell me they are weak or have no influence). They already massacred thousands of Christians in the inquistions and medieval times. Lookup the history behind “Kill them all and let God sort them out” it was a cisterian monk who used the phrase when he had ordered the slaughtering of cathars (men, women and children) and the soldiers were confused on how to distinguish them from their catholic brethren.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnaud_Amalric

    This shows their attitude towards ‘heretics’ including protestants. Jesus never would spread such teachings, he wouldn’t go around chopping the heads of barbarians like some of the Catholic Popes did in medieval times. We are called to LOVE our enemies, regardless of what religion. After 9/11 we should have turned our cheeks and shown the world that we are truly Christian rather than attack and conquer them.

    I’ll ask you a question, would you have been tricked into worshiping a Muslim Antichrist movement? My guess is no. Now think how many, including Muslims would worship Catholicism and the Pope if he were to rain down fire from the heavens. Certainly a vast amount of both Catholics and Protestants would and Muslims are taught to praise/worship anyone who can perform miraculous acts.

    Another point is that the papacy (Popes) commits the two things that are considered blasphemy in the bible. They claim the name of God (Holy Father is how they are referred to by others) and they claim to have the power to forgive sins.

    Also, it says in Revelations that it will be a place that was, is not, and is again. The Vatican existed throughout medieval times, then was put into exile by Napoleon, then brought back into existence by Mussolini (evil dictator). So that prophecy has been fulfilled.

    I have found that the Vatican and Papacy fill all the requirements in Revelations to be the head of the ‘antichrist’ movements. I have also seen that most Christians having a cloak over there eyes place by Satan to deceive them and have them believe it must be a Muslim. Yes Islam will wage war on Israel, but that does not mean they are the Antichrist movement. Only the papacy (who the presidents and heads of states consult, both Bush and Obama met privately with him, Bush personally greeted him off the plane when he landed in New York and told him “You are a greater man than I” basically showing he is submissive to the Antichrist movement) would have the power to bring about ‘the mark of the beast’ and elimination of true PROTESTants. Being a protestant we’re called to protest the Pope and Catholicism. I hope this opens up your eyes and removes any hatred you may have against Muslims. We are to not ‘hate’ anyone, anytime we are doing so it is the flesh taking hold of us. If we are to be mad at anything or injustice, it would be the abomination of the Catholic church and how many disillusioned souls are coming out of that place.

    Hitler had a deal (reichsconcordant)with the Pope that he would not destroy any catholic churches. He was himself Catholic and so were his top staff. He said “I am and will always be a Catholic”. So six million Jews were massacred by a Catholic.

    • It is known that Hilters relgious views are in a great matter of dispute. Hilter though baptized as a Catholic and went to a Catholic School cared nothing for the Catholic religion and was known to be religiously sceptical unlike his Mother whom was a practicing Catholic. According to Historian Michale Rissman Hileter was influenced by Pan-Germanism and rejected the Catholic Church, leaving home and never practiced it ever again. In numerous statements Hilter had conflicting relgious beliefs as in one hand he showed someone whom was spiritual but yet was against organized religion. Hilter was a good propaganda man specking as if on the side of Christ and the church but deeply against it’s hierarchy. Hilter was influenced by Mein Kampf and justified Nazi intolerance moving into militantism which he associated “Germany and Nazism” as a rise towards a “Roman State Religion”, while mentioning the end of the Pre-Christian Roman Religion “Catholicism” and other Christian religions. Hilter actually rejected many traditional Christian beliefs such as love and compassion calling on listeners to reject these beliefs. Furthermore, were Hilter and many of his elite officers were involved in mass murder of the jews, he also was anit-gay and was mass murdering gay people, those whom couldn’t work and was infact moving in on the Catholic Church and Vatican to make them next on list of mass murders since it was known the Pope was against these mass killings and did not agree with what Hitler was doing. However, because the Pope knew what was to happen to him and other Catholics he feel silent! to avoid Catholiscism destruction by the new Germany Nazicism relgion and culture.

  117. I smell a Anti-Catholic anywhere, let me guess you must be one of those Catholic hating Protestants. I’m sure you’d be the first to destroy and butcher every Catholic in your way if you could. You also seem to fail to recognize the fact that Protestants killed Catholic and Jews with just as much zeal. If you checked the Democide statistics you’d see a world involved in much bloodshed coming from various religious, cultural and political denominations.

    However, I also like to pose your loose and poor understanding of Anti-Christ you obviously do not understand. Just because a organization like the Catholic people/Vatican doesn’t exactly have the same beliefs as protestants doesn’t make them Anti-Christ. Unfortunately, their are also Catholics whom state Protestants are also the Anti-Christ as well. (Remember all Catholic people/Vatican believe in Christ as living son of God, so do Protestants, Presbyterians, Anglicans etc.

    • Also a reminder: Islamic people only believe in Christ as a Prophet and state of no such event as Crucifixion.
    They do not see Jesus a living son of God and the word made flesh.
    • Jews also do not recognize Jesus as the son of God
    • Hinduism believes in multiple Gods.
    • Buddhism doesn’t even mention a God.
    • Atheist believe in no God
    • Their are also political organization that do not believe in practicing faith. “Communism”

    Hence, Jesus made many statements of is position as son of God. Lord of Lord and King of Kings.

    Thus, we all have to form some suspicion above of the above points mentioned.

    • Antichrist to me, just means anyone who denies Christ as savior, denies his teachings, and disobeys God. You will always find people who have these traits, in any religion or christian denomination. WE have to be alert to keep our hearts pure.

  118. As a former catholic I think I can assure you that there are no “catholic haters” here. We all believe in Jesus and what he taught. Are we “anti-Catholic?” Well I guess you can say all Protestants and all non-catholics are anti-catholics, just as we are anti-muslim and anti-atheists. Otherwise Luther would never have split from the church.
    Luther believed that the Vatican was the beast that the woman rides and called the pope the antichrist. Many modern Protestants still do.
    Ad if we are correct in believing that “Mystery Babylon” represents pagan practices that have infiltrated the catholic church we must assume that these practices will be removed before Christ can marry his bride, wouldn’t you agree?
    If you think that Jesus will soon return and take over the duties of the pope in Rome you are sadly mistaken. There will be much house-cleaning when he returns and the Vatican as it exists today will probably be completely dismantled.
    God does not hate Catholics, but he hates Babylon and He will destroy it, that much we know for sure.
    When judgement day comes and you stand before Him and he asks you “Why have you worshipped graven images and forsaken my Holy Sabbath day?” how will you answer him? – You were just following orders from the pope? You figured He wouldn’t really mind as long as you loved Jesus?
    You and many others are going to have some ‘splaining to do.
    No God doesn’t hate Catholics but he may hate Catholicism. At least what it has become over the centuries.
    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Jesus is telling us that His people are in Babylon. Not Muslims, not Buddhists. HIS people. Babylon is Christians! The Book of Revelation is a warning like those of Noah and Jeremiah. He is cleaning house again and this time it’s not the Jews but us Christians.
    Look carefully at your church – do you see perfection? Is your church completely without sin? Is it ready to become the bride of Christ?
    You need to give this some thought and study the Book of Revelation with a fresh mind.
    And remember that the Beast is not a man and the False Prophet is not an antichrist but an imposter – a substitute for Christ – he will not be against Christ. There is no antichrist in the Book of Revelation so don’t go looking for Muslims or Buddhists or anyone else. Look for a man who claims to be Christ or at least his substitute. There is a man with such a title – the “Vicar of the son of God” or in Latin “Vicarius Filii Dei” and if you add up the Roman numerals in that title they add up to 666.
    If you know this man then beware for he will lead his people into perdition.
    Come out now before it is too late.
    God bless.

  119. I never said my church was without sin, only you did James. How about your church is it without sin!. You need to go beyond Revelation and take into account the rest of the Bible as well and read into history of ancient times. Just because Revelations mentions no Anti-Christ doesn’t mean we should miss it out altogether. Remember the Bible is filled with many areas were it mentions Anti-Christ/s. Revelations is inter-connected and interweaved with the rest of the Bible and cannot be ignored.

    It is well known that Anti-Christ according to some Christians is interpretation of various biblical eschatological passages, refers to an end time leader who fulfills Biblical prophecies concerning an adversary of Christ, (substitude Christ and against christ) while resembling him in a deceptive manner. The antichrist will seemingly provide for the needs of the people but deny the ultimate salvation. The Anti-Christ appears 5 times in the New Testament.
    James The Bible mentions not just “one” but many Anti-Christs and Revelations must include the rest of he Bible to interpret.

    John wrote that such antichrists deny “that Jesus is the Christ”, “The Father and the Son”, and would “not confess Jesus came in the flesh.” Now ask yourself James Giordano and everyone what religious, political and singular individuals deny this! Their are many! Not just Islam, Jews, Hindu’s or Atheists. Even some Christians do.

    Their are scholars that interpret the Antichrist coming form Daniel 9:27 “abomination that causes desolations” and Jesus references of abominations in Daniel, in Matthew and Mark that warn of a Jerusalem desruction and of a King that is one that exaltes himself as the Anti-Christ.

    The Second Epistle of Peter mentions false teachers, false prophets that bring false teashings.

    In The First Epistle of John mentions Christians whom fail to test every spirit/s
    “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus, that spirit is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (1 John 4:1–3 NIV).

    Thus, their you go False Prophet/s, False Teacher/s, Substitutes, imposters, adversaries = Anti-Christ. It is as clear as a blue sky it’s all over the Bible of imposters.

    One just cannot deny as you would The many various individuals, institutions and denominations that would be involved in a Revelations Event.

  120. Yes Jockey, there are a lot of Antichrists in the world today. Every Jew and Muslim is an Antichrist according to John. But he was not speaking of the Great deceiver or the Man of Sin or the False Prophet. The term antichrist should not be confused with him, it simply refers to everyone who denies Christ. Revelation refers to a beast and a false prophet who will be thrown into the lake of fire, plus Satan. These are not the Antichrists of John.
    The clue to the false prophet is in Revelation 13. There are two beasts and if you know history and you know the prophecy of Daniel, you can figure out who the two beasts are.
    The first comes from the last beast-kingdom of Daniel which is Rome. When the Roman empire broke up into 10 kingdoms a new small kingdom (the little horn of Daniel) took control. History shows us that that was the Holy Roman Empire. Revelation 13 even specified that it would last 1260 years (538 – 1898) and it did. It also described several features of this religious empire and they all fit. Read for yourself with an open mind and you will see.
    Then the second beast comes out of the first – it was a part of it. When the Holy Roman Empire was ended it left behind a remnant beast-kingdom – the Vatican.
    The image of this beast (the Vatican) is its spokesperson – the pope. He is not an antichrist – he is a false Christ and the false prophet. There is no antichrist, only the beast (Vatican) and its leader the pope (false prophet).
    As a former catholic all of this hit me pretty hard but I eventually came to understand and accept it. The lesson of Revelation is the cleansing of the churches of Babylonian paganism before they can become the bride of Christ. Every church that thinks that the sabbath has been transferred to Sunday will be affected as will every church that uses statues or crucifixes. These were laws written in stone and the early church changed them due to Roman influence. Daniel even foretells that the beast will think to change laws and times. Church history proves him right. The facts are plain, the prophecy has come to pass. Unfortunately almost everyone will miss it just as the Jew missed their real messiah 2000 years ago. They are still waiting. In like manner yourself and many others will wait… looking for a world dictator described in the Left Behind books. You will wait for 2000 years of fulfilled prophecy to happen all between now and the second coming. But you will still not see it because you have been deceived by false prophets and you will call people like me false prophets up until Christ returns.
    I urge you to take another look at the books of Daniel and Revelation and try to put yourself in God’s place and imagine what He is trying to tell his people who are stained by Babylon. Don’t offload the wrath of God onto another religion. God only cares about and prophesies to His own people, now the Christians. The Book of Revelation is for and about Christians, not Muslims or Jews or anyone else. If that is true and I know it is, then you must figure out who the woman who sits on 7 hills is. The woman is clearly a church and she rides a beast which is a nation. A world church based in the city of 7 hills who is a nation. Who could that possibly be? Get a list of United Nations members and see how many churches are member nations and you will have your answer. And remember, it must be Christian because God does not and never has sent prophecy for religions other than His own. Once you have gotten that into your head, the book reveals itself quite plainly.

    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    God is clear that the plagues are for His people who are stained by paganism – those who partake in Mystery Babylon. And Babylon will be destroyed and the angels will rejoice in her destruction. Then Christ will marry his bride – a cleansed church probably resembling the church in Philadelphia who Jesus praises in Revelation 3.
    It is a simple message really, but it gets blown all out of proportion by people who either try to sensationalize it or those who try to justify their “brand” of Christianity by throwing it all off on another religion entirely. There is an awful lot of that happening in this blog page mostly because Babylon has permeated almost all churches today to some degree. The Whore of Babylon has many harlot daughters so almost no one is safe
    Perhaps no church today is truly worthy to be the bride of Christ. Personally, I affiliate myself with the Philadelphia Church of God in Enid Oklahoma. I live in California so I cannot attend any services but if you want good information about bible prophecy go to their website: http://www.keyofdavid.com and request some free literature on bible prophecy. Perhaps soon then you will be able to see the light.
    God bless you.

  121. I was doing some history research connected with Revelations and the Bible and decided looking at ancient Pagan Rome.
    I was starting with “seven heads are seven mountains on which the women sits. They are also seven “Kings”.
    Then I looked at “Ten horns you saw are ten Kings who have not yet recieved a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authroity as kings along with the beast”.
    What if it’s possible if the Kings who have not recieved a kingdom was because they were still princes waiting to be crowned as Kings. (Princes in waiting).

    This is were I started looking at Ancient Pagan Rome on Maps and other reference books and found:

    Western part of Ancient Rome: 1. Italy, 2 Hispania, 3 Gaul, 4 Britannia and 5 Africa
    Eastern Part of Rome: 1 Greece, 2. Balkans, 3Asia Minor, 4 Syria, 5 Egypt.

    Thus, the ancient places Ancient Pagan Rome once ruled, matched up with “Modern Present Places”: Portugal, Spain, Italy, Yugoslavia, Romania, Greece, Austria, West Germany, Bulgaria, France, Britain, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Holland, Jordan, Top of Algeria, Top of Libya, Tunisia, and Morocco.

    However, I had to look up Asia Minor, Westermost protrusion of Asia: two thirds of Turkey, the region is bounded by the Black sea to the north, Georgia to the northeast, Armenian Highland east, Mesopotamia to the southeast, the Mediterranean Sea to the south (Anatolia & Europe: ) and Aegean Sea to the west. (Greece)

    Further, looked at Mesopotamia area of the Tigris-Euphrates river largely corresponding to modern day Iraq and parts of Syria, Southeastern Turkey and southwestern Iran.

    Hence, this were I started something unusual and placed down all the perspective princes/princesss down that were waiting to be Kings and Queens of a Kingdom. “Present Time”
    1.Italy: Crown Prince Vittorio Emanuele IV di Savoia-Carignano
    2.Spain: Crown Prince of Spain, Felipe de Borbón y Grecia
    3.Luxemburg: Crown Prince Guillaume
    4.Netherlands: Crown Prince Willem-Alexander &
    5.Britannia: Crown Prince Charles & Heir son: Crown Prince William
    6.Greece: Greece Crown Prince Pavlos
    7.Balkans: Crown Prince of Yugoslavia Alexander II Heirs Peter, Philip, Alexander
    8.Georgia: HRH Crown Prince Nugzar Bagration of Georgia daughter heiress Princess Anna Bagration-Gruzinsky Prince married Prince David Bagration of Mukhrani,
    9.Possible Kings of Syria, Iraq King of Jordan’s Son Heir Crown Prince Hussein Bin Abdullah
    10.Iran Heir Son Former Crown Prince Reza Pahlavi or HIH Prince Ali-Reza Pahlavi, (could also be a heir to Egypt and Sudan)
    11.Egypt: Prince Muhammad Ali, Prince of the Sa’id heir to Egypt & Sudan

    I don’t really know if this is totally right I had a few problems with the Jordan King and Heir as he is related to other middle eastern countries royal house and could possibly be a heir their too.
    I had a problem with Africa too since they have their native Princes although Brittish Royals seem to be appear to be a Head here.

    At the end of my List I ended up with “11” Prospective Princes, although Heirs come and go. Some have no heirs . So I’m leaving it open as Who knows what will happen in the furture.

    This is just a theory I have that the The ten horns you saw are ten kings . The Kings may well be government rulers. But it was interesting to do, although I ended up with 11 perspectives instead of 10 at present time.

  122. I’m a partial preterist. Revelation is a 1st century text that spoke to the people of that day. Everyone reinterprets it into whatever new influence they, in another timeframe, can image.

    The woman that sits on the beast is Pagan Rome who spilt the blood of many saints. Rome was a city of 7 hills. (i.e. Nero who killed and tortured many Christians in the gardens of the Vatican.). There were 10 kings (future) who followed. These were Pagan Roman Emperors who carried out a wave of 10 persecutions of Christians.

    Pagan Rome was also the antichrist that invaded the temple of Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. (Daniel). Thus the beast.

    You need to research early Church history to understand Revelation.

    God bless

    • hi Jim

      Curious to hear your view. If everything was fulfilled in the first century AD, then why isn’t Jesus back yet? The last thing he says is “Behold, I come quickly.” That was 2000 years ago. And why aren’t we in the millennium?

    • Yes! But we must not forget that Pagan Rome through having 7 hills infact had a expansive amount of countries that were part of her. Thus Ancient Pagan Rome cannot be Rome without these nations.

    • Actually, it how you reflect on the meaning destroyed, theirs your typical tearing a building to pieces or removing the arc of the covenant for some as directed and equivalent to destroying the temple. For the Jews destroying their temple seems to regard Islamic occupation denying them access. However, what has been around for a long time and present today is the blasphemous names against Jesus written on it’s Temple wall to me is another interpretation of destruction.

      • P.D.
        Have you ever considered that the end-time temple is the Christian church, not a physical and Jewish building? If this is true, then the False Prophet might be a high church official who causes its people to follow an abomination – such as willfully breaking God’s laws or commandments?
        Food for thought at least.

    • Jim,
      I have studied the preterist theories and they don’t hold up under scrutiny.
      First of all, the Book of Revelation was not written for or about the people of John’s time, it is for US – it is an end-time book for those who will have to suffer the tribulation just prior to the return of Christ. (Sorry, but there is no early rapture so don’t get comfy).
      Also, the beast exists for 42 prophetic months or 1,260 actual years. That never happened with Rome. It turns out that the Holy Roman Empire did last exactly 1,260 years and no other empire that ever existed lasted that amount of time, so mathematically, the Holy Roman Empire is a lock.
      The idea that NERO was the Antichrist was cooked up by the catholic church n response to the ideas of the protestant reformation. But even the pope at that time rejected the idea and the cardinals assigned to counter the claims of Martin Luther, John Calvin et al, were instructed to come up with something more believable, and 18 years later they came up with the idea that everything in the Book of Revelation is for far into the future – the opposite of preterism. But now, 500 years later, many have gone back to the first plan. That is what is in the notes of my catholic bible in fact.
      Turns out that Luther got most of Revelation right, but now most Protestants have gotten way off track and no longer believe what was taught for the last half a millennium.
      Too bad as they will be screwed when the tribulation gets here with most of them whining about how come they were never raptured before all hell broke loose. Then most will be looking for the mark of the beast in all the wrong places and Satan will get them without them even realizing it. This includes preterists. In fact according to Revelation “All the world will follow the beast.” So almost every Christian will be fooled – they will get it wrong. Sorry, there’s no “Get out of jail free card.” If you don’t figure it all out, soon it will be too late.
      I’m just saying – it’s time to be careful and diligent. Go back, study the scriptures carefully. The bible explains and interprets itself. Prophesy repeats itself. Make sure all the pieces fit. Never toss out verses that don’t seem to fit. Use the bible code – it is the dictionary of prophesy. Good luck to you and God bless.

  123. To Jockey and other Catholics:
    (From a former Episcopalian) I’m also a dispensationalist. Some would call that a heretic.

    I’m always getting off the subject. It’s my MO.

    This is in reference to your “comment”:

    “I smell a Anti-Catholic anywhere, let me guess you must be one of those Catholic hating Protestants.”

    I guess the Revolution and the Founding Fathers were anti-Catholics.

    Americans and especially Californians don’t know their History.

    A few web pages on American History.

    It’s been done on purpose, so we will have a one world government, a one world religion and one world currency.

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/04/how-anticatholicism-helped-fue.html#ixzz158a2Og8t

    Indeed, to an extent rarely acknowledged anti-Catholicism helped fuel the American revolution.”

    n 1774, Parliament passed the Quebec Act, taking the enlightened position that the Catholic Church could remain the official church of Quebec. This appalled and terrified many colonists, who assumed this to be a British attempt to subjugate them religiously by allowing the loathsome Catholics to expand into the colonies. Colonial newspapers railed against the Popish threat. The Pennsylvania Gazette said the legislation would now allow “these dogs of Hell” to “erect their Heads and triumph within our Borders.” The Boston Evening Post reported that the step was “for the execution of this hellish plan” to organize 4,000 Canadian Catholics for an attack on America. In Rhode Island, every single issue of the Newport Mercury from October 2, 1774 to March 20, 1775 contained “at least one invidious reference to the Catholic religion of the Canadians,” according to historian Charles Metzger.

    http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-11-13/housing/24655905_1_samuel-adams-moderator-leader

    Yet while many of his contemporaries viewed him (Samuel Adams) as one of the most important revolutionary leaders – an opinion apparently shared by the British, who once issued an order granting amnesty to any American revolutionary leader who turned himself in except for Samuel Adams and John Hancock, who would be immediately executed – to most modern Americans he is a somewhat vague figure.

    http://blog.gaiam.com/quotes/authors/samuel-adams

    In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practiced, and both by precept and example inculcated on mankind . . . The only sects which he (Locke) thinks ought to be and which by all wise laws are excluded from such toleration are those who teach doctrines subversive of the civil government under which they live. The Roman Catholics or Papists are excluded by reason of such doctrines as these: that princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those they call heretics may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of government, by introducing as far as possible into the states under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty, and property that solecism in politics, imperium in imperio, leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war and bloodshed.

    Samuel Adams (1722 – 1803)

    http://articles.ocregister.com/2009-11-13/housing/24655905_1_samuel-adams-moderator-leader

    Historian George Bancroft averred that those who signed the Declaration of Independence viewed Samuel Adams as the man who had “the greatest part of the greatest revolution of the world.” Shortly before his death in 1803 Thomas Jefferson sent him a couple of letters that were almost embarrassing in the effusiveness of his admiration.

    I had been unaware just how deeply religious Adams was. A devout Congregationalist, Adams was perhaps the last of the Puritans. It was a different time, of course, when many public men did so unabashedly, but Adams was almost incapable of speaking or writing without invoking “the Fear and Reverence of the Supreme Governor of the World.” Adams early on was resolutely anti-Catholic and almost as hostile to the Church of England, but as the Revolution progressed, and he saw people of all faiths uniting against the British he became more tolerant, urging religious liberty.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Puritan_New_England

    Christmas was a target in the ideological warfare of the European Protestant Reformation.[1] Most Anabaptists, Quakers, Congregational and Presbyterian Puritans regarded the day as an abomination while Anglicans, Lutherans, the Dutch Reformed and other denominations embraced the holiday and joined Roman Catholics in celebrating it.[1][2] When the Church of England promoted the Feast of the Nativity as a major religious holiday, the Puritans attacked it as residual Papist idolatry.[1]
    The Puritan community in New England heaped contempt upon the holiday, called it ‘Foolstide’,[3] and suppressed attempts to celebrate the day for several reasons. First, no holy days were sanctioned in Scripture,[1][4] and secondly, they saw men dishonoring the Lord by engaging in the most egregious and excessive behaviors during the Christmas season.[1][4] The Puritan also argued that December 25 was ahistorical, and Jesus was more likely to have been born in September or October. They regarded the selection of the December date as an early Christian hijacking of a Roman festival,[1] and, in their view, to celebrate a December Christmas was to defile oneself by paying homage to a pagan custom.[1] The Puritan view prevailed in New England for almost two centuries.[4]

    • Most denominations are annoying.

      • Kitti Doherty Jockey and me are not American. So we can judge what’s happening there. Jockey wasn’t attacking you directly! Jockey attention was on Clarke commenting, but also a very “few” particular protestants on this website (not saying everyone’s Protestant on site obviously) and those in the world whom are infact “Anti-Catholic” & “Protestant”. Look at Ireland, those Protestant and Catholic’s get really violent their. Thus, even I will turn into a monster towards those “minority” of Protestants whom come out insultingly, violently, hypocritically and arrogantly towards Catholism. Even minority of Protestants behave the same way. Yes! Kitty you can call me too “Anti-Protestant” especially with those minority whom turn up that are “Anti-Catholic Protestants” and are big mouthed about it. Remeber in history it wasn’t just Protestants suffering, but Catholic’s too whom had their properties removed, denied positions in high place like Parliament,their titles removed and even suffered religious genocide which was happening alot in England and around Europe. Ask yourself Kitty if someone came calling you and you religion insults, Would you be nice about it. This is what’s happening Jockey and me.

  124. James Giordano:

    It looks like you foloow the Philadelphia Church of God in Enid Oklahoma.

    http://www.pcog.org/
    http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=help&q=about

    Am I correct?

    It really helps me to understand someone’s theology and where they are coming from if I Know their background. I’ve mentioned mine in several places.

    I know you are former Catholic. Dr. Walter Veith was a former Catholic, before converting to Seventh Day Adventist.

    • Yes Kittii, I am a Philadelphian. I have been following the prophecies of Herbert Armstrong and his followers and it is amazing how much of them has come true. Many things that 40 years ago almost no-one believed would ever happen, have happened. He predicted the EU 50 years before it was finally ratified – the “revived Roman empire” as prophesied by Daniel and others. Their monthly magazine The Philadelphia Trumpet is usually filled with current events that are fulfilling prophecy almost every day. This church, who has been prophesying for 60 years, is either unbelievably lucky, or else it is correct. They have almost 100 booklets on prophecy from throughout the bible. I have read most of them and they make a lot of sense. I’m an engineer and I use math, science and logic in most everything I do and read. It takes a lot to convince me in what is true. It must be backed up by facts or corroboration. I believe that the Philadelphia church has gotten things right and are teaching he truth. However I read as many differing opinions as I can, just in case I can find something new out there, but most other interpretations simply do not hold water.
      I recommend checking out some of their literature and see what you thing. They brought me out of Catholicism which I now realize is the woman who sits on 7 hills and who will be destroyed at the second coming. It took two years of study to come to this conclusion, but now I am certain that it is true.
      I realize that there are some faithful Catholics out there who are offended by this, but if it is the word of God and He wants us to prophesy in these end time, then it must be said. “Come out of her my people” He says, so those like myself who have come out must try our best to bring as many others out as we can. We are called by the Lord to do it so we shouldn’t be ashamed or timid about it. We must be firm and convincing. We must challenge them to study harder and see if we are not correct, then decide. Unfortunately, the catholic church teaches that anyone who leaves the church will burn in hell forever, so naturally they will resist. Remember – the true church is referred to as a “remnant” not the largest Christian church in the world, therefore the true church can’t be catholic – it is mathematically impossible. So simple logic tells us to look elsewhere for the truth.
      But Revelation teaches that “the whole world will follow the beast.” So in the end, there will still be only a remnant who don’t follow the beast. It must be a very small church and I think I’ve found it. It may just be my opinion, but believe me, I don’t take this stuff lightly so I suggest you give it a look-see.
      May God bless you in this endeavor.

  125. Jockey and Paper Doll;

    Whenever I post something I try to state facts or post links and not bring emotion to it. I try to not to attack someone or hurt their feelings, but I’m guilty of that just like everyone else.

    Sometimes someone will use something for emphasis or to make a point. All of us have strong feelings.

    I’d rather just share my personal experience.

    2 years ago I became convinced 9/11 was an inside job. I’m not here to convince anyone of it, although I bring it up a lot. Because of that it brought into questioned everything I was ever learned, believed or was taught. I could of easily stopped being a Christian or turn against Israel.

    20 years ago I questioned the origins of the Christian Holidays.

    38 years ago I questioned why I wasn’t encouraged or taught to read the Bible, just follow the liturgy, rituals and prayer book. Why was I never told about Jesus second coming?

    I’ve questioned why I was not taught American History and Christian History?

    I’ve questioned the Christianity of George WMD Bush
    http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance44.html

    I questioned the last two years why all these denominations and belief systems?
    http://11th-hour.info/Articles/Doctrines_of_Devils.html

    http://watch.pair.com/

    http://www.bridalcovenant.com/introduction.html

    The Lord’s purpose is to FOCUS ON THE LEADERSHIP of these churches, ADMONISHING THEM TO CHECK THEIR HEARTS on what they are teaching His flock and where HIS CORE MESSAGE OF SALVATION may be getting lost in their mix of doctrinal interpretations.

    These SEVEN churches HAVE HISTORICAL ROOTS AS ACTUAL churches that existed in the Roman province of Asia. The churches are addressed by the city that they were located in.

    THERE ARE ALSO PROPHETIC APPLICATIONS in these letters. One application is that the SEVEN churches REPRESENT DIFFERENT AGES IN church HISTORY and that they are progressive. This interpretation holds that AT THE END OF DAYS, TWO MAIN TRAITS will remain that Christendom is either going to be VERY ALIVE or VERY DEAD (apostate) in their teachings a very black and white approach to the Lord’s warnings.

    I’ve even questioned the church and group I identify with:
    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/sharia-connection-to-calvary-chapel-costa-mesa/

    I questioned the rapture;
    http://www.rapturesolution.com/

    I like to know what church or denomination someone comes from, because it gives me some indication of where they get their theology.

    You’re right. You’re not going to reach people attacking their church or belief system.

    • And so we go merrily along praying to false gods, making up our own false gods, praying to dead people, rearranging the ten commandments, changing the sabbath so that it fits in our schedule or rather lands on the day the “sun-god” is worshipped, honoring our idols, praying to our idols, giving parades in honor of our idols, rewriting the scriptures to make them our own…and its ok because G-d forgives us despite the fact that He told us NOT to do any of the above and let us also argue over and fight to the death our right to do the above and……..Sigh!

      • Also, the waffer does not change into Christ’s flesh, the Pope is not Christ on earth, and pouring water on infants does nothing to get them into heaven as they are innocent.

        What elce? Oh yes, the Qween of Heaven is not Mary mother of Jesus, the Queen of Heaven is a pagan Goddess and part of the false Trinity.

        How is it, I write the true truth, but I’m the hater?

        Misleading millions with paganism is what the Universal Church is doing. Come out of her!

        • …merrily, merrily….life is but a dream…lol

        • The Pouring of Water is called a Baptism or Christening, based on the New Testament Matthew 3:13-17) where John baptizes Jesus. However, their are many areas were baptism is also mentioned in the Bible. There are many ways a lot of Christian denomination’s baptize and some don’t baptize at all. However, with the Catholic Church baptism is a sacramental washing in which the soul is cleansed from sin at the same time the water is poured on the body. It is a way of making one a Christian but also penance in Mark 1:4 John was in the desert, baptizing and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins. To Catholics and other demoninations, “yes babies are innocent”, but baptism is seen as needed because we are all stained by original sin. On another note it is not uncommon to hear some Christians call other people, organizations or denominations not Christian, although we do have principles that state “not to judge others”.

          • The concept of original sin is an invention of the early catholic church. It was used so the churches could sell dispensations to their fearful followers in order to fund many cathedrals as well as the various crusades. It does not appear anywhere in the bible and Jesus never taught it. In fact, even if it existed, Christ died to wash away our sins making infant baptism unnecessary and pointless.
            In fact, infant baptism was actually a Roman pagan ritual which was eventually endorsed by the Vatican.
            Unfortunately he catholic church gets much of its doctrine from the catechism, which is a book written by men, which actually takes precedence over the bible. If the church leaders didn’t like what the bible said, they merely overruled it and actually re-wrote the bible and even changed the ten commandments.
            Do you really trust these church leaders with your salvation? Why should we believe in the catholic catechism? Should we also believe in the book of Mormon? How about the Koran? Scientology anyone?
            We must get back to and trust only in the bible. Everything else is false doctrine written by men. They can not be trusted. There is no doubt that the woman on 7 hills is the catholic church. It is big, rich and filled with paganism. It has slaughtered millions through the crusades and inquisitions. It has worn out the patience of the saints. It has changed God’s laws thinking it has the power to do so. They will soon be proven wrong. When you stand before our Lord, how will you explain that it is OK to worship on the pagan Sun-day and to ignore Hid true sabbath day – you know, the one he etched in stone for Moses with his own finger?
            Not to mention over 75 other paganisms that the catholic church figured it could simply “sanctify” with the stroke of the pope’s pen.
            We are warned about this “whore of Babylon” and asked to “Come out of her my people.”
            Unfortunately very few people will see the light. The true church is referred to as a “remnant” therefore any church as big as the Vatican can never be considered a remnant, so by simple logic, they can not be the true church. They will continue right thru the tribulation clinging to their ancient traditions. Traditions that date all the way back to ancient Babylon. Sound familiar?
            I came out of a lifetime in the catholic church. I hope I can convince a few more to come out of her before it is too late.
            I will pray for all of those who choose not to.
            God bless…

            • Well written James. Infant Babtisim is pagan. Just another example of paganism in the Universal Church.

              • If Baptism and Original sin is Paganism why is it mentioned in the Bible? These 2 beliefs go beyond the beliefs and practices of Paganism, which are a wholly different set of ideologies compared to Christianity. Thus, when we look at Baptism there are numerous instances were it is mentioned in the Bible for example: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Mark 16:16. Other examples of Baptism are mentioned in Romans 6:3, 6::4, Colossian 2:12, Acts 22:16. 2:38, 8:12, 8:13, 2:41, John 3:24 & Mark 1:4. Furthermore with Baptism of babies, though there is nothing stated in the Bible about this, it doesn’t mean it neither is unacceptable nor forbids such a practice, this is a issue that falls upon the parents choices. Hence, we cannot place paganism in the same spot as the Bible when it comes to Baptism. However, with Original Sin which is also called Ancestral Sin (Orthodoxy religion) these words are not directly mentioned in the Bible, they are names given to a event that occurred in the Bible that is part of Christian theology, that is humanities state of sin coming from Adam & Eve Genesis. Catholics see it as the state of sinfulness; Eastern Christians as physical & spiritual death or loss of grace, other Christian see it as cause of actual sins. Hence, if we look at the Bible this original sin doctrine is looked at in the teaching of Paul in Romans 5:12-21 & 1 Corinthians 15:22. Accordingly again we cannot just conclude this is simply a issue of pertaining just to Catechism and the Catholics.

                • Well, you pretty much made my point when you admitted that infant baptism and original sin can’t be found in the bible, only in the Christian church(es). Whether eastern or western, they both picked up the Roman pagan practices when emperor Justinian unified the Roman religions.
                  The church always finds a way to justify these practices, but you have to ask “what would Jesus do? The popes could have really helped Him out when he was here you know. Imagine if He would have thought to sell indulgences to the rich Jews of His time. Hey, they could have bought a bigger boat!
                  Oh wait, Jesus was Jewish and didn’t teach or believe in hell (that was a greek pagan concept), Oh darn, He could have made a fortune…

                  • James, your not listening, I didn’t mean the total destruction of “Original Sin” because of “non presence”. Hence, I meant the “Word” doesn’t exist. I wasn’t including the “Meaning” or the “Event”. “Original Sin” is the “name people give to an event” found in the Bible as I stated earlier, it is a “name created” to explain an “event” that happened: Genesis “Adam and Eve’s fall”. Are you stating there is no Adam and Eve sin committed that got them thrown out of Eden? Thus, just because the “word” Original Sin is not present doesn’t mean it’s meaning nor the event doesn’t exist. People give names to specific events to direct our attention to a particular area like Adam and Eve. However, Original Sin meaning was also well known with the Jews except they call it the “Seed of Sin”, long before the Romans was present. Accordingly, with Baptism of children this occurred with numerous Jewish people called “Cleansing” a very old ritual. Thus, with Christians Baptism of children this occurred 1st or 2nd Century and becomes widely practiced during the 3rd Century. It is a assumption that infant Baptism and other forms of Baptism and original sin is Roman Pagan, these events that have been called various names over time, is also events occurring in Judaism. Further, the Pope didn’t even exist when Jesus was around, how on earth could they have helped him. Popes didn’t come to existence until after Jesus death. Finally, with Indulgences your unawareness of the true purpose of this alludes you, but that which is a money making practice. Originally for the Catholics this was based on merit, a form of self sacrifice, replacing severe penances that the early church gave to people. Unfortunately certain money hungry individuals used such disgusting behaviour to abuse indulgences. Such greedy people were commissaries of various offices, Rulers & Professionals etc. Martin Luther made the Catholic Church known of these abuses of Indulgences and was not happy at all about it, which caused the Catholic Church to argue with it’s member’s about these abuses and to suppress such behaviour which took to long. As result of abuses the Catholic church doesn’t practice indulgences anymore.

  126. Here’s a couple web sites for Jim on preterism:

    http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/Book_of_Revelation/commentary/htm/041109.htm

    http://jesus-messiah.com/html/preterism-hitler.html

  127. http://www.keithtruth.com/contact.html

    • Well it’s all very pleasant with Islam and Jesus stating we should love each other. However, being one who has a lot of Muslim friends and family I have observed a great many disturbing things written and acted on. Thus, I have read the Koran translated, had it read by arabic specking individuals of all nationalities to me and mentioned to Muslims, some very grave and horrifying issues in their Quran which is very unpleasant. As a result, they deny, state mis-interpretation, re-translate, ignore or get really nasty. Only a percentage look at these concerns as I have and many do. I’m just glad those percentage of Muslims see what I’ve see and are becoming very concerned too with whats written.

  128. James;
    You’re really good at writing and I see Love and careful consideration with what you write and you look like you really know your Bible. That’s what Dr. Walter Martin used to teach, that the cults know their Bibles better than the Christians. He’s right I couldn’t debate you.

    I just this minute ran across an “AWESOME” web site for you. I don’t believe in conincidences. This is the best web site on this church, yet I’ve run across.

    The Painful Truth:
    A collection of facts, opinions and comments from surviviors of Herbert W. Armstron-Garner Ted Armstrog The Worldwide Church of God and it’s daughters.

    I hope you will really look it over. The biggest problem I have with the Worldwide church of God is their Replacement theology of the Jews. It’s British Israelism. I can’t accept it.

    You have been coming to this blog for awhile now. I think you want to believe in the truth. Please don’t just skim over it or even skip looking at it. It’s your eternal salvation at stake.

    It has several videos on it’s main page and I think everyone by now knows I like videos.

    They even have a blog. I bet you could have great time debating back and forth with these former members. You visit here often enough.

    http://www.hwarmstrong.com/
    http://www.hwarmstrong.com/ptforum/index.php

    • Hi Kitti,
      I watched the video link (the other was a login page and I’m not a member so…)
      I don’t know what you learned from the video but all I saw was a series of satanic images and biblical catchphrases against a background of dramatic music. They told me nothing factual about the man.
      Now I know he had many enemies because of what he taught. He taught that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays in the guise of Christianity. And that pagan Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. Every Christian denomination, catholic and protestant with the exception of 7th day Adventists must by their nature disagree with him. Modern Protestants have concocted the silly “chip in the hand” theory to counter it and the Catholics can’t agree if the Book of Revelation is already fulfilled or is a long way in the future and nothing we should even be concerned with. Many believe we are currently in the millennium of Christ, with the pope as his substitute (vicar).
      He also taught that until Christ finishes the fulfillment of the Jewish festivals at His second coming that we should still honor them. That is too Jewish for most Christians and even the leaders that took over his church when Mr. Armstrong died, decided to eliminate them and go back to Sunday worship. What they don’t say is that they did it to boost membership as after Mr. Armstrong died God took away his blessings from the church as it became Laodicean and they had to sell off much of the church’s properties to stay afloat. They also stopped publishing and freely distributing Mr. Armstrong‘s many books and thus stopped prophesying – all to save money and make the new church leaders rich. This is all well documented by the courts when the new Philadelphia church tried to continue distributing his books for free. The new leaders tried to prevent them from offering the books even though they ere never copyrighted as Mr. Armstrong never intended anyone to make a profit from them.
      So I’m not a bit surprised that there are many people out there who despise Herbert Armstrong for revealing the pagan roots of many of their church doctrines. This video is nothing more than a lot of lame name-calling and it is no more accurate than their views on bible prophecy.
      Now Mr. Armstrong may not have been a perfect human being, but then even the apostles denied they knew Jesus, so nobody’s perfect. \Try going to the keyofdavid website and ordering a few free booklets and read for yourself what he had to say. The read the bible to check his facts. He converted me after 50 years in the Catholic church.
      But then you must remember I was an engineer and I deal in logic. Does it make sense that a man can change the word of God? Are all popes truly infallible? History tells us that is not true. I have heard some Catholics say that when Christ returns he will enter the Vatican triumphantly and don the pagan “fish hat” and sit in the pope’s throne. Really!
      Will he offer communion wafers still or will he let us lick His fingers? OK< I’m being silly, but if it’s not true, then what part of the Catholic church will he keep? Statues of His mom? Crosses to remind him of the worst day of His life? Get real – everything will change and when you look at the true history of the Catholic church, it will all have to go. Nothing else makes sense.
      Face the facts – we are going back to the true sabbath. All graven images must be destroyed. Xmas and Easter will be no more. Unless yo actually believe some dead pope or committee of cardinals absolutely and positively had every right and power to change the word of the eternal God.
      Do your really believe that?

  129. James;

    You seem to focus on the Catholic Church, probably because you were a member at one time. You didn’t address the
    Replacement Theology issue of the Jews.

    Here’s a web site too that is educational. Herbert W. Armstrong is not the first person to expose the pagan roots of the Church

    http://www.christmasisalie.com/

    You are familiar with the teachers I follow, because you have mentioned them before.

    I prayed for you today and here’s some other Armstrong blog sites.

    I think you are sincere. You are sharing out of Love. Only God can open your eyes to the Truth. You know your stuff.

    I have encouraged one blogger of one of these sites to join us. We will see what God does. I hope he comes on board.

    http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/mike.htm
    http://www.pcog.info/pcginfo.htm
    http://livingarmstrongism.blogspot.com/2010/01/gerald-flurry-
    biographical-sketch-part.html

    http://xhwa.blogspot.com/2008/08/warning.html
    http://xhwa.blogspot.com/search/label/About%20This%20Blog

    • Hi Kittii,
      You know, for 20 years I followed Jack Van Impe on his TV show and it was he that got me into the whole prophecy study. The Catholic church speaks little of it. I watched EWTN (the Vatican channel) for years and saw only one show on the Book of Revelation. He tried to convince me tat we are in the new millennium (preterism?) and that Christ may not be coming back for a long time and that the 100 years mentioned 5 times in the Book of Revelation actually means “an unspecified long time.” I didn’t buy it. There are a hundred things wrong with that theory.
      On the other hand, Revelation 12/13 predicts that the Holy Roman Empire would last 1260 years, and it did – exactly. Hmmm.
      Anyway, I followed Van Impe for many years until I began reading the literature from the Philadelphia Church of God. Until that time I knew little other than what Van Impe teaches. After much studying I came to realize several error in Mr. Van Impe’s teaching. I began to “call him” on his many bible references and after looking them up I realized he was just pulling up miscellaneous verses that sounded like they fit his version of prophecy but in fact they had nothing to do wit it.
      I’ve studied every theory I could get my hands on, even some real stretches of the imagination and I have come to the firm conclusion that Herbert Armstrong was right at least most of the time. I’m not sure that anyone knows the whole truth so I can’t hold him accountable for every line of prophecy, but his explanations have led me in the right direction and brought me to the point I’m at today.
      But to be fair, I sometimes change my views, such as the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy where most people erroneously assume that the last “week” is not yet fulfilled, representing the 7-year tribulation time. I now realize this is false and the tribulation time is actually unspecified. I consider the ability to learn and grow in my understanding is a good thing. Most people are so set in their beliefs that nothing they read from now on will ever change their minds. My catholic friends are all this way as are my Italian family members. All I can do is pray for them. But to those who still have an open mind, perhaps I can make a difference, so I blog on and hope for the best.
      When it comes to the bible, most people are set in their ways and refuse to drop their life-long beliefs. I is very stressful. They also think with their hearts and no so much their logical minds. This can lead them down any number of straying paths. You need to put yourself in God’s shoes (sandals?) and ask yourself what He would think about certain things. Here is a short article called “What will Jesus do” that might get you thinking in the right direction. I hope you will read it without prejudice.
      Tell me what you think:

  130. James;
    You side steepped the question again. To me and and what I have been taught and read in the Bible is that the Jews are central. Without them there is no end times scenario, no second coming, no millenium.

    You know I listen to Chuck Missler and Chuck Smith but I don’t follow them. I’v doumented erros that I have seen with them on this blog. I can’t believe Glen Beck (a Mormon) was featured at one of their prophecy conferences.

    This web site has become one of my favorites. She standing up for the truth. We shouldn’t follow men. We have to be Bereans.

    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2010/10/19/sharia-connection-to-calvary-chapel-costa-mesa/

    • Well this is just silly. How I’d Herbert Armstrong any different from Billy Graham, Jack Van Impe, Joel Olstein, Pat Robertson and thousands of others who have started ministries? All churches are built on donations from members thankful for the instructions. But the Worldwide church of God never charged for their literature and neither does the Philadelphia Church of God. I have a hundred books and never paid a penny for them.
      But who is the worst offender, by far? Who is the richest church with the most glorious cathedrals and cups of gold, fine linen of scarlet and purple, and all manner of vessels of most precious wood, brass iron and marble. (See Revelation 18 for all the rest).
      The Catholic church of course. And what about selling indulgences – get out of hell cards – to help build their empire. And telling their soldiers of the crusades that killing Muslims and Jew will insure their entrance into heaven. Herbert Armstrong was a rank amateur in comparison.
      Try reading his works before calling him a tool of Satan. Unlike the Catholic catechism, they are rooted in the bible.

      As for the issue of replacement theology, it is a complicated topic, but as far as the Christians replacing the Jews in the new covenant, we see that indicated in Revelation 12. That chapter describes the Jewish faith becoming the Christian faith after the birth of Christ, and how this small church is protected from the devil under the guise of the Holy Roman Empire for 1260 years (3-1/2 prophetic months). So Christians are the new Israel except where the term Israel refers to the nation of Israel. For example, in Ezekiel 38/39 – the war of Gog involves the nation of Israel being attacked by their (Muslim) enemies – a war which we see in the making right now. Otherwise, Israel refers to Christians who are now God’s true church, not Judaism. That much should be obvious. But the question of the “true church” – the one that Christ will marry when he returns, Revelation 121 refers to this church as the “remnant of her seed – referring to the original church as founded by Jesus.
      That little remnant is certainly not the 1.3 Billion strong Catholic church. Just do the math on that one.
      So what should the true bride of Christ look like? Jesus tells us in Revelation 3. He speaks to the seven churches of Ephesus and declares that only one out of the seven is pleasing in His eyes. The church at Philadelphia was the only true church in those days and to find the true church today we need to look to the original Philadelphia church to get a glimpse of what Christ’s bride will look like.
      A simple church, wit no statues or graven images or crucifixes, no Nuns, altar boys, confessionals etc. AND NO SUNDAY WORSHIP!
      And I can name 50 more pagan practices you wouldn’t find there either – and you won’t find them in His future bride either. OF THAT YOU CAN BE CERTAIN!
      The Catholic church is certainly rich and spectacular and all other religions pale in comparison to its splendor. It is a fantastic creation, but of MAN not God. It is full of rich traditions, but they are the traditions of men and not of the word of God and the bible warns us of just such things.
      Jesus was a simple rabbi, not a pope, and so he will remain. The Catholic church with all its glory and splendor will ultimately be rejected by Christ. It will not simply be adjusted or tweaked. It will be utterly destroyed:
      Revelation 17: For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
      Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!
      It is the city of 7 hills – Rome, the Vatican. Called Babylon – the symbol of ancient paganism.
      Any other choice is illogical and requires rejecting or ignoring half of the prophetic verses. Your brain is telling you the facts but your heart is rejecting them.
      I know you love Jesus, but you don’t seem to understand Him. Do yourself a favor and put on the shoes of the fisherman and see Jesus from a true perspective.
      Bless you my friend.

  131. James,
    Just a comment. I know how dug in you are with your position on replacement theology. Some have opened the door a little, just to bridge some things that don’t coincide with their theology. Others have thrown the door wide open, totally reversing what is written. Discourse will not change this. Only revelation from the Holy Spirit. What I have noticed is, when that door of replacement theology has been opened, it is extremely hard to get it closed. With the times that we are heading into, not knowing who we are and who we are linked to, will leave us perplexed and vulnerable. YHWH deals with individuals, not denominations or religions. He alone is the judge and determines who are His. It is not our place to do that. We are to deliver the Truth as He has revealed it in His word. I believe we have missed a lot, in this area, due to the fact that we really didn’t start at the beginning. Scripture, in the time of the New Teestament, consisted of the Tanakh. Most have thrown off the beginning and are trying to understand the end from the end. We have been told in scripture that God tells the end from the beginning. There is nothing in the New Testament that was not first laid out in the Torah and the Prophets. Seems kind late after 2000 years to go back to the beginning, but like the old saying, better late than never. We all have wrong thinking, we just don’t realize it. But YHWH will bring understanding to those who are His in this time of Restoration. God is inclusive, always looking for who so ever will!

    • Al,
      From what I’ve read the replacement theory is quite complicated and controversial with three different interpretations, but I’m not an expert on the topic. So I’m not sure what you are referring to in your post. Are you trying to imply that the Catholic church can not be the woman in Revelation 18 because the book is all about Israel and the Jews? You never really made it clear what you were trying to prove. Perhaps you can elaborate.

      • Hey James,
        I was not saying anything about the Catholic Church. Just speaking to the concept of replacement theology that is rampant in the church now, to varying degrees. Don’t have time right now, but will write Monday. Have a great and blessed weekend!

  132. YES ..
    It is the roman catholic church..city of 7 hills not “land” of 7 hills ,..so sorry for you ..but the pope who thinks he is a god that sits in a pagan temple with idols and statues of stone is the BEAST…they got rid of the commandment that says “you will not bow down to statues of false gods,images or gravings”.
    …the Catholic church killed more people in hstory than all wars together…turn to the REAL 10 commandments..not the 9 split up into 10 to fiyt your lust……

  133. Mary ..my donkey!
    ..the “Catholic Church”…sorry i meant the “catholic church” bows down and worships semiramis holding tammuz in her arms..the false christ.

    Why did almost all catholic temples in South -Africa replace their statues of semiramis ..your lady of whatever..with new statues where semiramis now holds a baby in her arms..not just open arms anymore.?

    Does this indicate the false replacement christ is now here..?

    Well..there is only one thing that jumps to mind = “SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship””SUN worship”….everywhere you go..
    ..turn to the REAL GOD of the Bible and his Real 10 Commandments.

  134. James;
    I think it’s wrong to make money off the gospel.

    Keith Green is the only Christian singer I know of that didn’t believe in charging for his concerts. I posted his testimony over on:

    Why did the Jesus movement die?

    Where do you think I started when I first went on this journey of what I believed 2-3 years ago? I never herard of John Darby before. I never knew about recontructionism, Dominionism and all these other cults and branches of Christianity. It really scared me. I almost thought everything I had believed in was a lie. I just had to review it.

    Dave Hunt is one of my favorite speaker. He has a few written articles on this web site and he writes all about the Apostates in the Church. So not one person is guilt free. I’m glad I’m not in a place of leadership.
    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/current-end-time-apostasy-of-church

    That is part of prophecy. That’s why I’m not surprised my own church has done some wrong things and people are pointing it out like in that above post.

    David Regan’s book has a chapter on the purpose of the millenium: It’t to fulfill promises made to “The Jews’, the church and promises to the nations, promises to Jesus, and creation

    I think there’s probably a lot we agree on. I tried the Messianic movement. I love the Jewish stuff, but it wasn’t meant to be. I just don’t get hung on all the symbols and rituals. It’s all about a personal relationship with a living God.

    In the Millenium:
    Zechariah 8:23

    כג כֹּה-אָמַר, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת, בַּיָּמִים הָהֵמָּה, אֲשֶׁר יַחֲזִיקוּ עֲשָׂרָה אֲנָשִׁים מִכֹּל לְשֹׁנוֹת הַגּוֹיִם; וְהֶחֱזִיקוּ בִּכְנַף אִישׁ יְהוּדִי לֵאמֹר, נֵלְכָה עִמָּכֶם–כִּי שָׁמַעְנוּ, אֱלֹהִים עִמָּכֶם. {ס} 23

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts: In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold, out of all the languages of the nations, shall even take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying: We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’ {S}

  135. In a nutshell this is what I believe:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

    Question: “What is replacement theology / supersessionism?”

    Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the church is a continuation of Israel (replacement/covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism).

    Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. So, the prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are “spiritualized” or “allegorized” into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been condemned by God, and there is no future for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the Jewish people over the past 2000 years despite the many attempts to destroy them? How do we explain why and how Israel reappeared as a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1900 years?

    The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is completely different and distinct from Israel, and the two are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost and will continue until it is taken to heaven at the rapture (Ephesians 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings are valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2000 years of dispersion.

    After the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), God will restore Israel as the primary focus of His plan. The first event at this time is the tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The world will be judged for rejecting Christ, while Israel is prepared through the trials of the great tribulation for the second coming of the Messiah. Then, when Christ does return to the earth, at the end of the tribulation, Israel will be ready to receive Him. The remnant of Israel which survives the tribulation will be saved, and the Lord will establish His kingdom on this earth with Jerusalem as its capital. With Christ reigning as King, Israel will be the leading nation, and representatives from all nations will come to Jerusalem to honor and worship the King—Jesus Christ. The church will return with Christ and will reign with Him for a literal thousand years (Revelation 20:1-5).

    Both the Old Testament and the New Testament support a premillennial/dispensational understanding of God’s plan for Israel. Even so, the strongest support for premillennialism is found in the clear teaching of Revelation 20:1-7, where it says six times that Christ’s kingdom will last 1000 years. After the tribulation the Lord will return and establish His kingdom with the nation of Israel, Christ will reign over the whole earth, and Israel will be the leader of the nations. The church will reign with Him for a literal thousand years. The church has not replaced Israel in God’s plan. While God may be focusing His attention primarily on the church in this dispensation of grace, God has not forgotten Israel and will one day restore Israel to His intended role as the nation He has chosen (Romans 11).

    Recommended Resource: Bible Answers for Almost all Your Questions by Elmer Towns.

    This page is also available in: Español, Português, Arabic, Indonesia, Italiano, Russian, Japanese

  136. Kittii,
    I believe you are correct in everything you mentioned here (except for the rapture). God has plans for both the Jews and Christians. They will be dealt with differently in the tribulation since the Jews have rejected Christ, they must be taught the truth. That will be the job of the two witnesses and the 144,000 sealed Jews. Christians will have to be taught not to follow the beast or else suffer the consequences. The 7 last plagues only fall on those with the Mark. I doubt that Muslims, Jews or Hindus will be involved.
    In the New Testament the Christians are often referred to as “Israel” while the new nation of Israel is referred to in a more descriptive manner such as “The pleasant land” or the like. If you can make that distinction, then replacement theology is not an all or nothing deal. In other words, you can believe in it and not believe in it at the same time and still be correct. It probably is a little of both.
    As for the Christians being raptured before the tribulation, that is a myth. I can find no credible evidence that it happens before the actual last trumpet and return of Christ. But if the true church IS raptured, it will only be that “small remnant“ of those who “Keep my commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” That will leave every SUNday worshipping church left behind. And coincidentally, none of the Seventh-Day Adventist churches believe in the rapture even though they would likely be the only ones taken.
    So I guess we’ll all be here together.
    Gee, I wonder what these blogs will be about then…?

    • Hi James,

      You say above, “As for the Christians being raptured before the tribulation, that is a myth. I can find no credible evidence that it happens before the actual last trumpet and return of Christ.”

      Many believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7 refers to this as being the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

      “1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.”

      Many believe that the church that is indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and that it is then that the rapture will take place.
      The reasoning behind this is that this is the time we will be presented as Yeshua’s bride in Heaven, and that one doesn’t beat up the bride before you marry her.lol.

      Yet….. We’ll just have to wait and see though?

      • Well Gregg, I read several commentaries on 2Thessalonians just to be sure and they all had the same general idea as outlined in the following from Coffman:

        Verse 6
        And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.
        That which restraineth …
        This is viewed generally, by nearly all schools of interpreters, as being the Roman government. This is supported by the context in that it would explain why Paul spoke so guardedly of its being taken out of the way.” However, the prophecy reaches far beyond the fall of the ancient empire; and the best view of this is, in all probability, that of Hendriksen:

        Of all the theories advanced so far, the one which seems to have most in its favor is that in which the restrainer is “the power of well-ordered human rule,” or as Ellicott’s Commentary has it, “the principle of legality as opposed to that of lawlessness.”
        The principle of law and order, as enforced by human authority, is “that which restraineth” until he be taken out of the way. This means that Satan will continually use every device, pursue every opportunity, and employ every diabolical instrument in his efforts to break down law and order in society.

        Hence, for the time being, the worst Satan can do is to promote the spirit of lawlessness. But this does not satisfy him. It is as if he and his man of sin bide their time. At the divinely decreed moment (the appropriate time) when, as a punishment for man’s willingness to cooperate with this spirit, the “someone” and “something” that now holds back is removed, Satan will begin to carry out his plans.

        I found no mention that the church was the restrainer – in fact just the opposite. When you read it in the context of the entire letter, there is no real hint that the church is to be raptured. I think this is just another case of taking verses out of context in order to build a theory that may make for a great movie plot, has no firm biblical underpinnings.

        As for beating up on the bride, the true remnant church will not be “beat up” but this will only be a tiny fraction of Christianity. The vast majority of apostate Christian churches will be hammered into shape or else completely destroyed.

        Wonder if God will be fussy about His bride or cut her a lot of slack?
        Ask the Jews. Ask The people of Noah’s time, or the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah, or Israel at the time of Babylon and so on and so forth.

        Don’t count on a snappy rescue just because you praise Jesus.

  137. Hi James,

    Yep, it certainly is a debatable topic for sure. One where there appears to be a plethora of theories, with no simple resolution, or consensus readily available.

    Where you say, “Wonder if God will be fussy about His bride or cut her a lot of slack?
    Ask the Jews. Ask The people of Noah’s time, or the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah, or Israel at the time of Babylon and so on and so forth.
    Don’t count on a snappy rescue just because you praise Jesus.”

    I guess it is my hope, (taking into account that those that you utilized to substantiate your position didn’t have Yeshua to praise for their salvation) that verse’s such as Romans 5:8,9,10
    “8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” can also be applied to the times of the Tribulation. However, I have no real proof that this will be the case.

    And though, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 do appear to suggest some type of “snappy” event,:-)
    I can only hope and pray for all of us, that it indeed indicates some form of rescue.

    But again, I have no definitive proof at all. Scripture at times is so ambiguous, and appears to be simply beyond our ability to fully comprehend. We will all just have to leave it in God’s hands, and see how it plays out.

    Peace, and God Bless

  138. Hi James,
    Good to see you standing firm on what must be considered to be Satan’s
    most effective ploy in inducing complacency in these critical last
    days; namely the false teaching of a pre-Armageddon rapture. I have
    recently learned that book sales and literature have netted the greedy,
    opportunist proponents of this blatantly obvious false teaching, many
    millions of $. It is a fact that, when the simplicity of God’s Word is
    perverted in this way,elaborate invention becomes necessary in order to
    circumvent the truth to the degree where error becomes plausible; and
    unfortunately TOO MANY have swallowed what will prove to be a bitter and
    deadly “pill” as the “birth pains” increase; with the promised “get out”
    clause never to be invoked. ((We will be going through the tribulation,
    but we can take comfort in the fact that God’s wrath is not poured out
    during the tribulation; His wrath is poured out at Armageddon.))
    Only a handful of scriptures are necessary to set this matter (rapture)
    straight; since only a few scriptures taken out of context form the
    false premise on which this outrageous heresy has been built upon.
    But unfortunately, intricately interwoven with this teaching is the
    claimed restoration of Israel as a nation, after the rapture, and the
    misunderstood 3 1/2 years of Daniel’s 70th week timeline which actually
    pertains to the duration of Jesus’ ministry; so there is a lot to
    unravel.
    Unfortunately due to other commitments,I am unable to allot the
    necessary time in presenting the necessary information and partaking in
    the inevitable exchanges; so I wish you well; but this really is not
    such a difficult issue to resolve;((although Satan would have us believe that it is !)), the difficulty will be for those who have pinned their hopes of “escape” on the rapture, to come to terms with being grossly deceived.
    Suffice to say, if anyone here really does believe that Jesus will come
    for his flock (1 Thes.4:13-16) before Armageddon, please show from
    scripture how those left behind can be saved, or have a second chance of
    salvation, since the only means of salvation would have expired.
    Just like the days of Noah, will the coming of the Son of Man be;
    THERE WAS NO SECOND CHANCE !

    I wish you well, James.
    God bless you all.

    • Hi Richard,
      Nice rant.

      You say above,”Only a handful of scriptures are necessary to set this matter (rapture)straight; since only a few scriptures taken out of context form the false premise on which this outrageous heresy has been built upon.”

      Perhaps when you can find the time from your commitments,and become able to allot the necessary time in presenting the necessary information and partaking in the inevitable exchanges, you could supply us with some supporting evidence to your view point?

      Also…. did you ever read my post to you on “Angels Eat Food”?

      God Bless

      • Hi Gregg;

        Yes, that is my intention as soon as I am able to.

        Re:post; “Angels eat food”; I cannot recall having placed
        a comment here.

        God bless.

        • Richard,
          Sorry Dude,
          That was my mistake. It was a post to Nigel. 🙂

          Looking forward to your post when you can find the time.

          God Bless

    • Hi Richard,
      You are completely correct sir! There will be a rapture – the only question is the timing. According to Revelation the snatching away occurs at the 7th trump as Jesus descends from the clouds for all to see. The dead in Christ are also raised at this time, something the rapturists simply ignore. You don’t see that in the “Left Behind” movies.
      This will occur on the Feast of Trumpets as Christ comes back to fight the battle of Armageddon. We are protected from this event by the rapture, but not from previous events in the Book of Revelation. Otherwise John would have skipped over them since they would not have applied to Christians.
      There is no proof that there are two second comings. In order to get an early rapture you must make certain assumptions and take other things out of context to pint a sort-of-believable picture. I believed the picture for many years until I watched a lecture where the teacher went through every verse used in the pre-trib theory and by using the correct context, debunked the entire theory perfectly. I read the chapters (not just the verses) myself and I came to the same conclusion. I didn’t want to but I had no choice – the bible was clear. There are simply no verses that definitively discuss a separate earlier rapture – it’s all innuendo.
      And you’re right about the 70th week of Daniel. Until recently I simply believed the idea that it represented a “future” 7 year period, but once I began to study it in detail I came to realize that it is already passed – part of the continuous 70-week prophecy. The words were simply reinterpreted to mean something else so that they would seem to fit into the popular 7-year antichrist reign theory. But they make perfect sense without the need to toss the end of the prophecy another 2000 years into the future. After all, Daniel had another prophecy that ended in 1844 so he would have had no problem extending a prophecy another 170 years or so.
      So it looks like the tribulation is going to be a lot different than most people think. Most everyone is waiting for a great world dictator to take over the New World Order. They believe they will easily spot him as they are certain what to look for. I think Satan has them all fooled. He has prepared for this time for many years and he knows just how to misdirect even God’s elect – just as Jesus said would happen.
      He has lured them into a false sense of security and he will have a field day with them once the tribulation begins.
      See you all there.

      • James;
        So well said! Look forward to seeing you there…and will be
        counting on you for a laugh or two, to get through!

        God bless.

  139. Hey Richard;
    What group do you idenityfy with? It will help me to understand just where you are coming from.

    • Hi Kittii;

      I belong to no denomination or group; and my teacher has infinite “IQ”,
      is the master of “resurrection”, and sure knows how to ride a donkey!
      Impressed?!…..

      God bless.

  140. James;

    I don’t think a Man who has taken 12 companies out of Bankrupty and has a genus IQ is going to believe or teach a Myth.

    http://www.khouse.org/pages/mcat/khouse/about_the_misslers/

    Our Blessed Hope
    by Chuck Missler

    ——————————————————————————–
    PURSUE THIS TOPIC:

    ——————————————————————————–

    ARTICLES
    The Wedding Model
    The Harpazo
    The Great Snatch?
    Ephraem The Syrian
    ——————————————————————————–

    We continue to receive many questions concerning the “Rapture” of the church and its apparent contrast with the “Second Coming” of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term “rapture” even in the Bible?

    Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

    I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics… in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.

    The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.

    The Harpz

    The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly presented in Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he encourages the grieving Christians that, at the “great snatch,” they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

    In verse 17, the English phrase “caught up” translates the Greek word harpz, which means “to seize upon with force” or “to snatch up.”

    There are those who claim that the word “rapture” isn’t in their Bible. That’s because they aren’t using the Latin translation:

    …deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.. -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate) 1

    The Latin equivalent of the Greek harpz is the Latin verb rapio, “to take away by force.” In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this past participle.)

    At the Rapture, living believers will be “caught up” in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time, to join the Lord in the air.

    The Promise

    This will be the fulfillment of the promise which our Lord confirmed at the Last Supper:

    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. -John 14:1-3

    This thrilling promise wasn’t given to everyone, only to His believers. (Judas had already left by then.)

    This appears to parallel the promise of the bridegroom in the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding, where, after the ketubah, the engagement, but before the huppah, the formal ceremony, the groom departed to prepare a new home for his bride, usually an addition to his father’s house. The bride was kept in a state of expectancy pending his return-often in the middle of the night, as a surprise.

    (The huppah, the wedding ceremony, was followed with a seven-day celebration, etc.)

    The Process

    The anticipation of a bodily resurrection after life on this earth pervades the entire Bible. In the oldest book of the Bible, Job declares:

    For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. -Job 19:25-27

    Yet, when our Lord comes to gather His church, there will be a generation alive at that time. In his discussion of the Resurrection in his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul again deals with this astonishing event:

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:51-55

    (From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, “in the twinkling of an eye,” will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) 2

    The Imminent Gathering

    Clearly, the Bible teaches us to expect Him at any moment. This is called the Doctrine of Imminency: it is next on the program and may take place very soon.

    (The word “imminent” should not be confused with “immanent,” which, in theological contexts, means that God is not only transcendent, or far above us, but that He is always with us and active on our behalf. Nor should it be confused with “eminent,” which is a title of honor reserved for persons of outstanding distinction.)

    Imminency expresses hope and a warm spirit of expectancy, 3 which should result in a victorious and purified life. 4 Believers are taught to expect the Savior from heaven at any moment. 5

    Paul seemed to include himself among those who looked for Christ’s return. 6 Timothy was admonished to “keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 7 Jewish converts were reminded that “yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry.” 8

    Some have concluded that the expectation of some were so strong they had stopped work and had to be exhorted to return to their jobs, 9 and have patience. 10

    Two Events?

    There are many that hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the “Second Coming” of Christ and the “Rapture” are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

    In contrast to the imminent gathering of His church, there are numerous passages that deal with precedent events which must transpire prior to the “Second Coming” to establish His kingdom on the earth. Some of the passages referring to the Rapture and the Second Coming are summarized at the the table below.

    Rapture
    Second Coming

    John 14:1-3
    Dan 2:44-45

    Rom 8:19
    Dan 7:9-14

    1 Cor 1:7-8
    Dan 12:1-3

    1 Cor 15:1-53
    Zech 14:1-15

    1 Cor 16:22
    Matt 13:41

    Phil 3:20-21
    Matt 24:15-31

    Col 3:4
    Matt 26:64

    1 Thess 1:10
    Mark 13:14-27

    1 Thess 2:19
    Mark 14:62

    1 Thess 4:13-18
    Luke 21:25-28

    1 Thess 5:9
    Acts 1:9-11

    1 Thess 5:23
    Acts 3:19-21

    2 Thess 2:1 (3?)
    1 Thess 3:13

    1 Tim 6:14
    2 Thess 1:6-10

    2 Tim 4:1
    2 Thess 2:8

    Titus 2:13
    2 Peter 3:1-14

    Heb 9:28
    Jude 14-15

    James 5:7-9
    Rev 1:7

    1 Peter 1:7, 13
    Rev 19:11-20:6

    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Rev 22:7, 12, 20

    Jude 21

    Rev 2:25

    Rev 3:10

    Why So Many Views?

    There are, of course, many differing views, especially regarding matters of eschatology – the study of “last things.” This diversity derives from several factors: the disciplines associated with hermeneutics – the theory of interpretation – as well as the need to integrate an understanding of the entirety of God’s revealed plan of redemption: “the whole counsel of God.”

    The need to relate the various elements of end-time events, such as the Great Tribulation, the events surrounding the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Millennium, and other related issues, requires precise definitions and diligent study. We will address many of these in our subsequent articles in the hopes that they will prove helpful in understanding these issues and assisting you in formulating your own views regarding these challenges. (We will discover that some of the principal controversies are more an issue of ecclesiology than eschatology! But more of this next time.)

    These are not “peripheral” issues (as they may have seemed in the past). We believe we are being plunged into a period of time about which the Bible says more than it does about any other period of human history-including the time that Jesus walked the shore of the Sea of Galilee and climbed the mountains of Judea! It is the most exciting time to be alive! But if we are to be diligent stewards, we need to carefully revise our priorities to match His!

    * * *

    • Kittii,
      In all the verses mentioned above there is none that clearly state an early secret coming of Jesus to snatch His people away.
      Yes, Jesus will protect His people by a “snatching away” but it won’t happen until He returns for the battle of Armageddon. We will be taken up and changed and meet Him in the clouds. Nowhere does it say we will go to heaven though. We will reign with Him for 1000 years on earth so I doubt we will even need to enter heaven for the ten days it will take him to destroy the forces of evil on the earth. In fact, once we have eternal bodies we will not need to be sequestered during the battle – after all, we can’t be killed.
      I believe the whole “meeting Him in the air” business is all about how a returning King is greeted by his subjects – they pour out of their houses and run to the edge of town to greet him. So it will be with the Lord. There is no need to send us to heaven, wherever that may be.

      And as for trusting “geniuses” it’s not all it’s cracked up to be. I don’t trust anyone who says:

      (From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, “in the twinkling of an eye,” will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) 2

      Clearly he is trying to solve the mystery of the bible scientifically, just to sound smart.
      If you ever watch Dr. Jack Van Impe on his weekly TV show he is always stating emphatically the in 400 one-thousandths of a second we will all be changed and transported 50 billion trillion miles to heaven. Of course every time NASA reports a new galaxy even farther away he has to revise the distance. He sounds like he knows exactly where heaven is, but maybe its really NASA who knows.
      My point is, just because you’re smart doesn’t mean you’re right. Heck, Sir William Herschel, Britains astronomer royale, thought the sun was cold to the touch and that people lived inside it.
      Brilliant man. Bad guesser.

      • James,

        Above a few posts, you stated the Bible does not write about a world system. However, it does read about the Anti-Christ ruling all who wish to buy, and sell. Those who wish to buy, and sell must have the mark of the Anti-Christ.

        How can this be, if there is not some form of control through a global system like a Central Bank?

        We see America being destroyed to make the Global Market place. Also, we see China trading their money, which has a mass murderer on it, nest to the dollar. Are we not close to a one world global currency?

        If that is true, and the FED is making it so the dollar is weak to a tipping point, would it not be easy to control almost everyone at once?

        • leatherneck,

          The new world currency is set to be decided on this March/April when the G20 meets. They expect the dollar and the euro to crash soon. Also, The UN plans a super devaluation of the dollar, and a meeting to establish the NWO by July 2011.

          Nathan Leal was a guest on Trunews with Rick Wiles – Friday (1-14-11)

          This program had three guests.

          Nathan has been given insider info on the coming NWO plan for a global currency. He shared this info on the program.

          The second guest has a different (insider) source & shares similar info on what the “NWO powers that be” are doing behind the scenes.

          Third guest Augusto Perez shares the message God gave him about a coming dollar devaluation.

          Coming soon: a global currency, dollar devaluation of 50% to 70%. Savings accounts and the middle class to be wiped out! We must get ready!

          [audio src="http://www.trunews.com/Audio/1_14_11_friday_trunews2.mp3" /]

          The wheels are in motion! Please listen to this and warn your friends and families. We are running out of time!!

        • leatherneck,
          The majority of Christians today believe that there will soon come a New World Order with total control over the banking system. They also believe that a great dictator will take it over and rule the planet. This “antichrist” figure will then give everyone a mark in the hand or forehead and without the mark they couldn’t use the banking system to buy or sell stuff. This interpretation was made popular with the “Left Behind” books and movies and the world has bought into it.
          They misinterpret a few verses in Daniel and Revelation and then expand on them until they have a complete screenplay.
          There is another completely different interpretation, however.
          First is the “Mark” of the beast. It is not a literal mark, but more like a “seal.” In Revelation we read that the 144,000 witnesses are “sealed” by God in their foreheads (meaning their minds). The devil also has his seal but unlike a “royal, kingly” seal, it is a simple Mark – like an illiterate person signing their name. They are like signatures and they represent a person’s allegiance. The term “mark of authority” is an example.
          You are sealed by God if you keep His commandments and are marked by Satan if you disobey them. The commandment(s) in question here are the second and fourth. The early church eliminated the 2nd commandment so they could keep the pagan statues they inherited from the Roman empire, and so they could pray to the dead (another paganism) such as Mary and many and varied saints.
          Then they changed the sabbath to Sunday due to the insistence of the Roman government whose people worshipped the sun god Mithras.
          Sunday worship has already been demanded by the medieval church. After the council of Laodicea the church stated “Thou shalt not Judaize.” and outlawed Saturday rest under threat of death or imprisonment. 50 million saints were persecuted, maybe twice that. You were forced to work on Saturday and rest on Sunday and you could not do business (buy or sell) unless you agreed to this.
          Last year, France just passed a “blue law” requiring the same thing and more of Europe will soon follow. The pope has also decreed it but as of yet does not have the power to enforce it… yet.
          The so called New World Order will only be a revival of the Holy Roman Empire in modern times, with the Vatican and the E.U. combining forces against a building Islamic threat.
          The “whole world will follow the beast” simply means that the worlds Christians will rally under the pope and dutifully attend church every Sunday, especially when the seals of Revelation begin to open. The New World Order will be a united Europe and the “Unified world religion” will simply be most of Christianity returning to their Vatican roots. (This is already happening, quietly, right now).
          The Vatican is the beast and the pope is it’s false prophet, working hand-in-hand to propagate a trick of Satan – to disobey God’s commandments. (And remember – you break one and you’ve broke them all).
          Of course the big problem with this interpretation is that almost no Christian church can agree with it unless they give up their traditional Sunday worship and become 7th day Adventists or the like. Even the Mormons thought that was just “too Jewish” for it to work for them.
          But this fits the prophecy that the whole world will follow the beast and the true church will be just a small remnant.
          So Satan has modern Christians looking in the news for a New World Order and a unified currency system and RFID chips to put in our hands, and there are just enough rumors floating around to perpetrate the scam.
          The devil has us zigging while he zags and the deception is working perfectly. And the beauty of his plan is that he really doesn’t have to do much of anything at this point as most Christians already have his mark and have had it for well over a thousand years.
          The tribulation is going to be a piece of cake for satan!

          • Thanks for the reply Marianne, and Richard.

            Richard,

            We are under grace now. How can those who worship G-d the Father in Christ name be of Lucifer even though they rest on Sunday?

            Are you 100% sure the mark of G-d is not a real mark. Because, the creatures that toment man from the pit can not hurt those who have it.

            Thanks, and have a great day.

            • Hi Leatherneck;

              Briefly, I think your comment was
              intended for James… Personally, I do
              not have a definite view on “the mark”,
              mainly because I do not, as yet, know
              why some will receive it on the right
              hand, while others on the forehead; but
              to be honest,it is something I am not
              too concerned about. Suffice to say,if
              we are to take it literally, then perhaps
              Catholics will be distinguished by either
              of the marks;because there can be no doubt
              that if the “woman” is indeed “Rome”,
              Catholics are guaranteed to accept the mark
              and may receive preferential treatment; and there can also be no doubt that anyone who adheres to the pagan doctrines of the
              protestant denominations and the like; which are by necessity “Catholic” in origin,will no doubt accept the mark,as will the rest.
              All who refuse the mark, will be those who
              are out of “Babylon”; because they desired
              to worship God in spirit and in truth,and
              by so doing, will have the necessary faith
              to resist..faith which has been built on
              the solid foundations of God’s Word and
              truth,augmented by the necessary sacrifices
              because of it, resulting in a close and
              loving relationship with Him.
              The unshakable trust we should now have,
              should dispel any fears of going through
              the tribulation; while babes in Christ;or
              whatever we are according to our level of
              growth and understanding, should be
              confident that God will see them through,
              since He will reward all who earnestly seek
              Him in spirit and in truth.
              If the mark should be symbolic,then again, it should not matter too much to us as I’m sure God will make “it’s” meaning obvious to us when the time is right.
              The only mark that we need be concerned
              about at the moment is; do we have the mark of our saviour, Jesus ?!

              (back in a while)

              God bless.

              • Thanks for the reply, and my mistake, as I was addressing James, and wrote your name instead. How strange.

                At the Dr. level, the arguement about the two men in the field is not one Christian, and one not. But, one Christian may go, and one may stay.

                Do any of you nice people here think some Christians will go through the Tribulation to help those who realize their error, or do you think all true Christians will be taken to be with Christ leaving all to fend for themselves?

                I am torn, because I know I worship G-d the Father in Christ name every day, but I sin every day too. We all do. So, I just don’t know. If I do not make the cut, I hope I am strong enough to speak out like I do here when it comes my time to accept the mark, or not.

                A romantic thought?

                • It may be a mix of what you said.

                  1. in the harvest, the wheat and tares grow together, the Tares are taken first and burned, and then the wheat is harvested…..so the righteous may be around when the unrighteous are punished….which means we are around in time of trouble.

                  2. matt 24,,,,Jesus says he will see us AFTER the tribulation….which means we have to go through at least something before he comes….i do not believe we go through the wrath, only the tribulation part.

                  3. there may be some christians who escape all this because they die and leave this earth in time to avoid it all. in this case, God uses a natural death to remove them.

                  4. i am open to another interpretation….like maybe the true, tested ones leave, and the rest remain to be tested.

                  • Hi Leatherneck;

                    Don’t worry,friend; it is
                    all about heart condition.
                    If we truly love Jesus,we
                    we will be on that cramped
                    and narrow path leading to
                    salvation.(his words).
                    We will not be walking the
                    highways of “Babylon’s”
                    cheap grace, since Jesus
                    shed his blood at a price.
                    The cost which we are told
                    to count, which amounts to
                    to the true value of grace
                    which covers our human
                    failings if we truly
                    desire to keep Gods’
                    commandments.
                    We need to go through the
                    tribulation because God
                    desires to show us just
                    what a powerful, loving
                    and merciful Father He
                    really is, toward those
                    who truly love Him.
                    What a grand prospect and
                    privilege to be part of,
                    and witness His Great Day
                    of deliverance.
                    Cant wait!.See you there!

                    God bless you!

            • Hi Leatherneck,
              If you read exodus and Leviticus you find that God “sealed” His people with his laws in their right hands (which represents works or deeds) and their foreheads (which is their minds or brains. It is clear in these old verses that the seal is not visible as Jews were forbidden to have tattoos or the like.
              If you look up “seal” in the KJV concordance you will find the word “mark.”
              God seals and Satan marks. Neither are visible.
              The mark of Satan is disobedience to God. I can not be about the banking system. That is a ploy of the devil to throw good Christians off the right track.
              Does God care if we worship on Sunday instead of Saturday? Here is what Daniel has to say about the beast/Antichrist:

              Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

              The first part refers to pagan practices of which there are many, and then note that the beast power tries to change God’s laws and times. The only commandment involving time is the 4th – the sabbath one. Then it says this power will last for 1260 (prophetic) years – the exact duration of the Holy Roman Empire, when the Catholic church had dominion over the whole of the Christian world and executed millions for heresy – including the refusal to worship on Sunday.

              Revelation makes this clear:
              Revelation 7:2-4
              2And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
              3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
              Revelation 9:3-5
              3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
              4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
              The above verse makes it abundantly clear, the 7 plagues of Revelation 9 will only affect those people who do not have the seal of God.

              And now the clincher:

              Revelation 14:11-12
              11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
              12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that
              keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

              These verses make it clear that punishment will given to those with the mark, but those without the mark are “they tat keep the commandments of God.”
              Therefore we can only conclude that the mark is the breaking of a commandment. Guess which one…

              As for the parable of the wheat and the tares, I believe that that refers to the “reaping” of the wicked after Christ returns. The day of atonement. We know He will judge the wicked after he takes His throne, so the parable must be referring to this – not a different judgement day years before the second coming.
              Of course the “Left Behind” books use this parable as if it describes the rapture and place it before the appearance of the antichrist. Nice story line, but it is just that. They actually got it backwards, claiming the ones who are taken away are “saved” thru the rapture when in reality they are the tares being plucked up and destroyed. Another ploy of Satan.
              So we are all going to go through the tribulation, but so what? If we live thru it we are changed at the second coming, after the dead have risen first. So who cares if we die a bit early? We’ll be back in time to meet Jesus in the clouds and we will even beat the living to the punch!
              God knows this, even if we forget. To die in Christ is to live forever, and we’re only “asleep” for an instant, so what’s the problem?
              The only problem is to figure out how to get “sealed.”
              Same as the ancient Jews, plus believe Christ is your savior. But believing in Christ and being a pagan isn’t going to cut it. This is why God wrote the Book of Revelation. Understand the reason behind it and you understand the prophecy.
              God bless us all.

              • Hi James,

                What you say about the “mark” makes a lot of sense, so is worthy of serious
                consideration;..thanks !!

                God bless.

              • A lot of good information folks. thanks.

                Now, a serious thought. There have been millions of good people worshiping on Sunday for about 1700yrs. My Grandmother is one of them.

                What about them?

                • I think if that is the worst thing your grandmother ever did, she does not have much to worry about.

                • Hi Leatherneck;

                  Since the issue of getting out
                  of “Babylon” applies specifically to these last
                  days, then disregard the 1700
                  years..nought to worry about!
                  I just wish those Sunday
                  morning preachers would stop
                  consigning the vast majority
                  of mankind who ever lived to
                  an eternity of unimaginable
                  torment..but I suppose where
                  God is absent, then the doctrines of demons will
                  flourish.

                  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should NOT PERISH but have
                  ETERNAL LIFE” ..John 3:16

                  What a truly loving & merciful
                  Heavenly Father we have !!

                  God bless.

  141. Richard;
    Everyone gets their teaching or belief from somewhere. There are those who think they’ve cornered the market on the truth and only they know the truth and are the “True Church”

    Sound familiar or like anyone you know?

    • Kittii;

      Not sure how the truth equates with a market, but there’s no doubt
      that counterfeit truth is big business for many. As for as claims of
      authenticity goes;I would avoid any denomination, group or person
      who consider their teachings to be infallible or who consider themselves to be the “true church”;conversely, any who do not care for the truth. However,I would embrace anyone who diligently seeks
      the truth, expecting to receive, as a result of continually asking
      God for understanding by means of His spirit, in conjunction with
      verification from scripture for all teaching received, from whatever
      source. I would expect such a person not to seek prestige, notoriety or status of any kind, and certainly not to gain financially.
      It is my belief that Jesus’ true followers are not represented by
      any denomination or group;although truth can be found in varying
      degrees throughout all denominations.

      God bless.

      • James & Richard,
        I would be interested in knowing your take on what Paul is saying in Romans chapter 11. Specifically about the cultivated and wild olive trees and how it pertains to us as believers in Messiah, and relational, one to another. Have enjoyed your back and forth.

        • Hey Al,
          I’ve found a short bible study that I think clarifies the verse you refer to:

          God is making the distinction between the natural olive tree branches (the Jewish people, who are naturally of Covenant Israel) which are the original children, and the wild olive tree branches (the people of the Gentile nations) which were not naturally His covenant people, but that are now brought into God’s Covenant relationship with Israel.

          Galatians 3:26-29

          “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
          For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
          There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
          And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

          Both Jew and Gentile are made one body of this Covenant tree, Israel. Both are now the Children of Israel, by the faith of Christ. Has the Promise to Israel of a New Covenant and an everlasting inheritance been abrogated? No, but Israel shall be defined by God, not by man. If we are in Christ Israel, then we are all Abraham’s seed and inheritors of the promises to Israel.

          Let us know your thoughts on the matter.

      • Richard,
        You have already posted that under a different page. Will go back and reaquaint myself with it. We never really finished our converstation on that topic. Will get back with you.

  142. Persecution, a depression, hard times is not “The Great Tribulation”. I believe a purging and a purifying is needed first.
    It’s really important we do not confuse the two, otherwise people will fall away.

  143. Hey James and Richard,
    Hope all is well with you today. I am not going to try and change anybody’s mind concerning what they believe. Only Ruach HaKodesh can do that. You both are very engaged and knowledgeable when conveying your beliefs. I have a lot of respect for both of you. I am not going to address anything either of you have said, but rather show where I am coming from.

    Jeremiah 11:13-16 (King James Version)
    13For according to the number of thy cities were thy gods, O Judah; and according to the number of the streets of Jerusalem have ye set up altars to that shameful thing, even altars to burn incense unto Baal.
    14Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.
    15What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.
    16The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.

    The cultivated olive tree is Israel. YHWH even declares that. Saying that the tree is Avraham is not contradictory to that fact, insomuch that the seed of Isaac and Israel were both in his loins. If you will notice, Paul speaks in chapter 11 of Romans about the cultivated olive tree and wild olive tree. Not coincidentally, both are olive trees, speaking to the fact that they are of the same nature, yet with differences. You cannot graft branches from another species of tree, and it remain a pure olive tree. Since both are olive trees, does that mean that they are both Israel by nature?

    Romans 11:24 (King James Version)
    24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    They are both olive trees so what is contrary to nature? Is it not, that Paul took that which was wild and spoke of grafting it into the cultivated tree. That is not common practice in the real world. The cultivated olive tree is taken and grated into the wild olive tree to stimulate it to bear better fruit. But Paul spoke of doing just the opposite. Why? To provoke Judah to recognize and embrace their own Messiah. In that Judah failed to present YHWH to the nations, so the wild olive branches failed to provoke Judah to jealousy. At least so far.

    Zechariah 11:10-14 (King James Version)
    10And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
    11And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
    12And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
    13And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
    14Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.

    YHWY tore Israel in half because of the sins of Solomon. Can you see the formation of the two separate olive trees? It is important to realize that they were brothers. God took Judah captive into Babylon, returned them to Israel under Ezra and Nehemiah, sent them into the Diaspora in 70 A.D., and brought them back into their land in 1948. The question is, when will YHWH bring back the House of Israel (The Ten Northern tribes)? But more importantly, how, since they were scattered (sown) and mingled with the nations? Judah kept their ethnicity, but the Northern tribes disappeared into the nations, loosing their bloodline.

    Hosea 2:17-23 (King James Version)
    17For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
    18And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
    19And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
    20I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the LORD.
    21And it shall come to pass in that day, I will hear, saith the LORD, I will hear the heavens, and they shall hear the earth;
    22And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel.
    23And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    The 3rd chapter of Hosea deals with the ten northern tribes. YHWH will take out of their mouths the names of Baalim (lord). When YHWH scattered the northern tribes, He actually sowed them in the earth. The word scatter also means to sow. When YHWH sows seed He expects and will get a harvest. Who are these people who will say to YHWH, You are my God?

    Hosea 1:6-10 (King James Version)
    6And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
    7But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
    8Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
    9Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
    10Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

    Again, in this verse YHWH will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel, but will utterly take them away. But just a few verses later He says their numbers would be as the sand of the sea and these people will be called the sons of the living God. Since the northern tribes are not here,especially in the numbers talked about, who are these people referred to as the sons of God?

    Hosea 3
    1Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.
    2So I bought her to me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and an half homer of barley:
    3And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
    4For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
    5Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

    In verse 5 it basically says that the children of Israel (not Judah) will return and seek YHWH (which I am sure you know is what LORD means in the KJV), in the latter days. Again the question arises, who are these people in the latter days seeking YHWH? We know that they are of the House of Israel, but who will they be in the latter days?

    I would be interested in your thoughts. Also, who are these people, but more importantly, who are they in YHWH’s eyes?

    • Hi Al;

      Thank you for your kinds words and hope you are well.
      I appreciate where you are coming from,and your desire to prove that
      Israel are God’s chosen people; and you make some excellent points. Because of what is written under the new covenant, I do not support the idea of Jewish chosenness, despite our saviour being a Jew.
      Moreover, because I am a Gentile, I do not feel compelled to metamo-
      rphosize in to a Jew, by way of converting Greek parlance into
      Hebrew or Aramaic, or observing Jewish customs and observances under
      the old covenant which no longer apply.Paul makes this clear in his
      epistles. My saviour’s name is Jesus,and I’m happy with that.
      Also, since it is our commission to preach the gospel to all nations,
      so that all have the chance of coming to salvation; I feel that the
      scholarly approach may be somewhat stifling to the majority of
      people, who let’s face it, are just trying to get through each day!
      So I do believe that something is clearly wrong when intense debate
      appears to be necessary in resolving issues such as this.
      I do not believe that this is God’s way, but due to perversion of
      simple teaching; unfortunately, it is necessary at times, for the
      benefit of those who have been deceived. However, I do respect your
      depth of knowledge and regard for this issue,as there can be no doubt
      that knowing the truth of Israel’s spiritual status, tells us much
      about the character of God.
      The olive tree analogy has to be seen contextually; because God has
      made it absolutely clear, under the new covenant, that there is no
      longer distinction between “Jew and Greek” in Christ. Romans 10:12;
      (the preceding chapter before the olive tree analogy in chapter 11)
      Because of the unequivocalness of this statement,all other references
      to Israel must be contextually weighed and prioritized in accord
      with this definitive statement. It is also worth noting that we will undergo spiritual transfromation of our bodies when Jesus simultaneously comes for his flock and executes the 1st resurrection.
      (1 Thes 4:13-18..1 Cor 15:37).
      This more than strongly suggests that we will not be indentifiable
      by our racial characteristics and differences, as Romans 10:12 appears to confirm.(hope this straightens out the Jewish and Roman noses !!)
      Since we are now one in Christ and are to be the subjects of God’s new Kingdom under the rulership of Jesus in Israel(initially), then
      who are these Jews who are to receive preferential treatment as
      God’s chosen. Will it be a two-tier arrangement, or do you think that
      what were once Jew and Gentile will be truly indistinguishable in
      terms of racial origin,and therefore truly equal heirs of the kingdom. Romans 8:16-17 clearly states the we are joint heirs with
      Christ. Since there is no suggestion whatsoever of chosenness here,
      together with all the scriptural references to indistinguishabilty,
      I really cannot see how Jews,in any way, can be God’s exclusive
      chosen people.
      Sorry, Al, but can only manage a short response to your questions at
      the moment, but I do agree that there are many verses which appear to support the idea of Jewish chosenness, just as there are to refute
      it;and no doubt we could exchange chapter and verse until the Jews
      come home?! (sorry, had to get that one in!); but at the moment am
      unable to. Maybe, we can continue at a later date, when convenient,
      or off-lime if necessary ?

      Regards, God bless.

      • Richard,
        I appreciate you writing back. Hope your day is going well. I am going to respond to your last post. Your response was pretty much what I was expecting. I was kind of surprised, though, that you seemed to be offended by the subject matter, to the degree that you were. You seem somewhat uncomfortable with the topic. Most likely because you are uncomfortable with anything detailed that is to the left of Matthew. I don’t know that for a fact, but then, that is the way we have been taught, isn’t it? Start at John and basically stay to the right of Matthew. The “Old” Testament is good for reference. You are aware that when Paul wrote his letters, the only scripture available was the Old Testament. And that the majority of the New Testament consists of, letters to basically specific groups of people. It is all true, just not new. Paul was given revelation into the deeper meanings of what was contained in the old Testament, to bring the Gentiles to salvation. Even the other Apostles had a difficult time understanding it. It has always been understood that in the Messiah there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, etc. It has always been that way. That deals with salvation. Whosoever will! It has always been about the Good Seed. But when we are born again, what are we born into? Read the Book of Ruth. It is a perfect picture of the Gentile’s betrothal to Messiah, as a part of Israel. What you don’t understand, is that Israel and the promises pertaining to it, now belong to us as heirs of the Commonwealth of Israel (not replacement theology). It is not about becoming Jewish. We will never be Jews. That wasn’t what I was saying in the other post. I intentionally didn’t say who the people were that the scriptures were referring to, that I wrote in the last post. It was to cause you to think about what is going on here. Not everything is laying on the ground in plain sight for us to just go over and get it. YHWH hides things for us to seek them out.

        Proverbs 25:2 (King James Version)
        2It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

        He doesn’t leave his treasure laying on the ground for the profane to find it. Do you believe that God has a place for you in the New Jerusalem? Which of the twelve gates named after the 12 tribes of Israel are you going to enter through? This isn’t a baker’s dozen. There is no 13th gate for Gentiles. If we have been born again by the Ruach of Elohim, then are we part of the Commonwealth of Israel. This theme runs from Genesis to Revelations. James wrote on one of his posts the other day that Paul should have made some of his points a little bit clearer. I don’t believe he had any idea the letters he was writing were going to be dissected like they have been. I would think, had he known that, he would have been more careful with what he wrote. I am not saying he made errors. I wouldn’t even go there. But, I truly believe he would have been a lot more thorough to make sure his readers were understanding exactly what he was saying. But all of that is just conjecture. I do believe that Yah is sovereign and knew the misunderstandings that would come out of this and it was His will for things to be where they are now and have been for 2000 years. You are right, when you say, that to be having a serious debate about issues such as this, when people are hurting, is clearly wrong (not verbatim, but close). After all this time, the Church still doesn’t know who they really are. And the Jews sure don’t either. That might seem like a small thing to you, but it isn’t. Are you aware that the Feast of Yom Kippur will most likely be upon us in the very near future? Yom Kippur will bring the restoration of the land and the PEOPLE of Israel. Where will Yashua’s throne be? In the New Jerusalem. Everyone that is there will be submitted to Yashua, in the land of Israel. What will that make you? A citizen of Israel!!! Even as the homeborn. The people of the nations that are left from the Tribulation, will come up once a year to Jerusalem, to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, the last of the Fall Feasts. They are the Gentiles. I know you think I am deceived and deluded. That is okay and I understand where you are coming from with that. All that I am trying to get across, is that you can never fully understand the new without the old (I so dislike those terms, but it is what we have been left with). None of this takes anything away from the basic message you now know, but rather puts a foundation underneath of it. It is a rich history we share with our brothers from pre-new Testament times. It was YHWH’s plan from the beginning. There is so much. The scriptures are so rich. None of us have even really begun to understand all that Yah is doing and working towards on our behalf. Please understand, my intent here is not to argue or try and win something, but to contend for the Faith. I don’t expect you to believe any of this from my mouth. You need to search it out for yourself, if you are willing.

        One last thing. In your last post you said that basically we have to understand the Olive Tree discourse “contextually”. Do you not see what is being done here. If you contextualize everything, set up boundaries through dispensationalism, where the Word is talking about Israel, use a little replacement theology, you can make it say whatever you want. You have to pervert the word to get the desired outcome. Unwittingly and basically in ignorance, this is what we have been doing, because it is the tradition that has been handed down to us. I will leave it with this. I am out of time. I wish you well, my brother. Look forward to hearing from you, if you are so inclined.

        • Hi Al, Hope you are well.

          No, I don’t feel uncomfortable or offended in any way!
          We who accept Jesus/Yeshua are commissioned to preach
          the good news to all nations, so that all have the
          opportunity to come to salvation. God’s Word is
          essentially a book of salvation,for, had sin not
          entered not into the world, atonement would not be
          necessary. As we know, God gave Israel the perfect
          opportunity to come to repentance,and only a “few”
          responded. We all, individually, have an equal
          opportunity to come to salvation through Jesus,and
          we all should know, after having had the good news
          presented to us, the consequences for rejecting it.
          Whoever refuses to listen will be deemed to have
          made a conscious, deliberate decision. That’s it!
          I do believe that many Jews will come to accept Jesus,
          and I do hope that many more non-Jews will aslo, but I
          really can’t see why any particular group need be
          singled out as a special needs case, and I cannot see
          any reason why a Gentile need adopt a Jewish mind set,
          since circumcision of the heart is what now counts
          with God,replacing the old covenantial rituals and
          observances.
          I can understand a Jew wanting to maintain tradition,
          but I cannot understand why a non-Jew Christian would
          want to pursue a course that it culturally alien to
          to him, because he was never bound to such a course in
          the first place. Paul makes this all so clear in his
          letters.
          With regard to chosenness;.if the Jews are still God’s
          chosen, then wonderful; it would be great for the most
          despised people in the history of the world to be
          compensated in this way..the more the merrier. Either
          way,God will exercise His perfect will.
          But, at this moment in time, I do not believe them to
          be, because of new covenantial supersession.
          However, if anyone can scripturally support the idea
          of God having two distinct groups of chosen people,
          (since all who accept Jesus are His chosen),under the
          rulership of Jesus, as an unequal two-tier arrangement
          ,then I would be more than happy to see them.
          Finally,whatever the arrangement, we will all live
          happily ever after under Jesus’ perfect rule, in
          accord with Gods’s perfect will, and quite frankly,
          that’s all that really concerns me on this matter.
          When the Jews come to repentance, then I think we
          can all be happy!

          Blessings Al, and may the Lord be with you!

  144. Dear Leatherneck,

    Your heart seems to be troubled lately? May you find peace.

    I am sure that anything that I may say in respects to your dear Grandma though it might be comforting, wouldn’t mean a heck of a lot. So instead I’ll quote God, ” And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” (Colossians 2:13)
    If she is “born again” it is all a matter of the heart.

    Above in one of your posts you say, ” I sin every day too. We all do.” If I may add to that, none of us are perfect either. So where is our hope?
    When Yeshua died for our sins, did He die for just a few of them, or as God say’s above, for “ALL” of them?

    That is the glory of being a child of the New Covenant. There is no sin that Christ death wasn’t sufficient enough to cover. He meant what He said when He said, “It is finished.” His blood covers the sins of our past, our sins now, and our sins of the future. Amen. He is our hope, and there is nothing that we can do at all to add to that.
    NOTHING.

    There does appear to be a lot of talk on this post about us as believers, fulfilling certain commandments to be worthy of our salvation though. Which to me seems to consist more of Old Covenant teaching rather than what we all are under now.
    I wish to be considerate, and sensitive to what others might believe as I express the following, because it may just ruffle a few feathers. However, I would hope that all would at least consider it’s content.

    I hope that you would all agree that the Old Testament consisted of the Law and of Condemnation. It was full of repentance, renting of garments, wearing of sackcloth, throwing of ashes, and the numerous sacrifices, and rituals associated with it all. Whereas the New Covenant consists solely of Spirit, Grace, and abiding in Christ.

    When God gave Moses the Law, not only did it reveal to man his sin, it also left the responsibility up to man to reconcile himself to God. It was all left in our works,”You shall do this. You shall not do this. etc.”
    However, the New Covenant, is all about the Spirit of life, and all about God, and Yeshua.
    God now said, “I” will put my law in your heart.
    “I” will be your God.
    “I” will remember your sins no more.

    Above when those of you who are making reference to keeping Gods commandments, I am sure that none of you are speaking about the 613 ceremonial laws. However, that leaves me wondering if you are then speaking of the 10 commandments? If so….. are you sure that we are still under those laws?

    I am not speaking from my own opinion here, I only attempt to understand, and follow Gods word.
    I would be interested to hear anyone else’s opinions regarding the following.
    What does God say through Paul?

    2 Corinthians 3: 2-18

    2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech– 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    What is the context of what God is saying through Paul here?

    – We are ministers of the New Covenant by the Spirit of the living God.
    – We minister not of the letter, (the letter kills) but of the Spirit, for the Spirit gives life.
    – Not written in ink, or tablets of stone. (What were the only laws that were written in stone?)
    – Read verse 7 to see what God Himself calls the 10 commandments. “The ministry of death.”
    – That Christ is through who we trust.
    – That we are not capable to do anything by ourselves, and that our sufficiency is solely from God.
    – That the veil of the law is taken away by Christ. He is our hope, and liberty.

    Romans 7: 4-7

    “4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

    We are now dead to the law. What were the laws that said ” You shall not covet “?

    Continuing….. Romans 7: 8-25

    ” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

    – Here is Paul, completely anointed with the Holy Spirit, capable through God of performing every gift given by the Spirit, drowning in the condemnation that was revealed by the law. Yet if we are ministers of the New Covenant and no longer live by the law, but live rather by the Spirit, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1)

    I think that it would be fair to say, that we all tend to beat ourselves up a lot. Not that we should exalt ourselves, but rather we should try to keep things in perspective. Paul sinned and wasn’t perfect either.
    But I suspect that everyone would agree, that he is loved as a child of the Father.
    Was that because of all of the wonderful sacrifices and works that he did? Or did he gain that love simply by accepting Yeshua as the Messiah, and Savior?

    In respect to the commandments. I don’t believe we are under any law other than to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. We are free to live by the Spirit, to trust in our hope and liberty as we abide lovingly in Christ our Savior. Amen.

    Just my thoughts. Thanks for reading.
    Shalom in Yeshua

  145. I just have a couple of comments on some recent blogs.
    First of all, as far as the “chosenness” of the Jews and whether the new “Israel” is the Christians (many being from the lost tribes), I’m not too concerned about it as it will be between God and His people and there isn’t much we can do about it. God will sort it all out in the end.

    As for the question about those who have attended Sunday services in the past, they will not be punished for it. Even those who “take the mark” during the tribulation will no be doomed. Worst case scenario will be that they miss the millennium and are part of the second resurrection at the end of the thousand years, when everyone ever born is resurrected. When that happens, everyone will live again for perhaps (I’ve heard) 100 years and will be taught the gospel, the commandments and everything they need to know to achieve eternal life. Then they have free will to decide to believe in God and follow His laws and live forever, or to go back to “sleep” which is the second death from which there is no return.
    I’m sure there will be some people of other faiths, like Muslims, who will ask to die again so that they can find Allah and get their 72 virgins etc.
    Now, if granny refuses to honor the true sabbath after 100 years of instruction, well… bye bye granny. Many dyed-in-the-wool Catholics and anti-Semites (maybe even Martin Luther?) may choose not to change their ways and would rather be dead. To each his own.

    Here is God’s word on the first resurrection:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    You can see from v.4 that those with the mark of the beast, perhaps throughout the ages, do not participate in the first resurrection, only the second one (v.5)
    Note from v.6 that those that have part of the first resurrection are “blessed and holy” and become priests of God for 1000 years. What I get from this that there won’t be any popes in the millennium. No false preachers, no pushers of the rapture or believers in heaven and hell. In other words, NO “Babelonians” or paganists.
    So if I’m right I won’t be seeing any friends or family members (all Catholics) in the millennium. No Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe etc. Oh well, they would all make terrible 7-the day Adventists anyway. But they will all be back in the end and if they are humble in the face of God they will repent and change their beliefs.
    This is just conjecture on my part so I’d like to hear what everyone thinks about what I’ve said.
    Bless y’all.

  146. James;You foucs on religion, the sabbath and the Law. It doesn’t save you. Even the Jews argue amongst themselves; “Who is a Jew”. Look at my posts on:

    Sabbath wars


  147. Yes James,

    It does appear to me that you have put aside the doctrines of your old beliefs, yet maintained the same legalism within your new ones.

    Law & our works, have nothing to do with our Salvation.
    It all consists of the Spirit and of the state of our heart now.

    Shalom in Yeshua

  148. Hi Gregg;

    Nice solid,spiritual read..thanks.
    Would like to elaborate on the meaning of grace in relation to
    salvation, if I may. As we know, grace is the result of Jesus’
    atoning sacrifice, which exonerates us from the consequence of
    inherent sin,which is death,(even though we are not responsible for our sinful nature)…grace being our provision for salvation.
    Contrary to what many think, being under grace is not a guarantee of salvation, it is the means by which we can be saved, by demonstrating faith in Jesus; and as you quite rightly say, fulfills the old covenant Law. However, it does not replace the law, but rather embodies every aspect of it;so there is nothing wrong in saying that
    we should keep the commandments; Jesus said it himself….John 15:10
    Now the crux of the matter is that, being under grace and with help
    from God’s spirit, does not annul our sinful nature, but empowers us
    to resist sin, ONLY if we choose to, and as we all know, we will err
    from time to time, but we must always repent daily in prayer and
    seek forgiveness as a matter of course,and we will be forgiven.
    Unfortunately,many have been falsely led to believe that under grace,
    repentance is not necessary, since their sins are automatically
    covered, and therefore forgiven. This is a lie from Satan and will
    cost many their salvation, which, in fact, they never had in the
    first place, since salvation is the reward of a repentant heart.
    Paul reminds us of this via his warning to the Corinthian
    congregation;

    ” Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”….. 1 Cor 6:8-10

    We must remember that Paul was addressing individuals who previously
    were licentious and pagan; but nevertheless they were under grace
    when he made the consequences clear.
    So grace without works is not sufficient; it all comes down to the
    desire NOT to sin, which God will honour by empowering us with His
    spirit, which will stay with us for as long as we desire not to sin.
    This is true repentance and the mark of a gracious person who really
    does understand the meaning and magnitude of Jesus’ sacrifice!

    I think James has been misunderstood..poor chap. I think we can call
    off the lynch mob now!

    God bless.

    • Hi Richard,

      Thanks. I have enjoyed reading many of your comments as well.

      In respects to my comments directed to James, they were merely an expressed observation, and not meant in anyway to be a judgment at all. James, if you are reading this, and took what I said that way, I would like to apologize to you. It is just my hope that you would carry the yoke of Christ, instead of religion.

      The Epistles to the Galatians, Colossians, and Romans far overshadow any particular cultural customs and ritual observances, and clearly emphasize our freedom from all external rules as the key to the entire New Testament Gospel. That, indeed, is the “Good News.” Matthew 11:28-30, “28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

      So ….. Richard, I agree with quite a lot of what you say above.
      Your 1st. paragraph for instance. I do though have a different point of view in what you say within the 2nd. However, I have a prior commitment tonight. If you don’t mind waiting, I will more than likely be able to respond to you tomorrow.

      Till then, Shalom in Yeshua

      • Hi Gregg,

        In no way were your words taken the wrong way…this is
        all good, healthy,solid debate,enhanced with a good dose
        of tongue-in-cheek…doesn’t get better than that!

        Re: Mosaic Law and ritual. Let’s say Jesus spiritualized
        the statute book…and who would want to be without his
        yoke?!

        God bless.

  149. Thanks Richard. Great explanation. I’m sure Hitler believed in Jesus but that won’t save his ass on judgement day.

    I do have one point of logic for those who do not believe the mark of the beast is about breaking a commandment and actually about accepting a bar code or embedded chip without which you can no longer buy pop tarts.
    If we are all saved by grace, then who cares about the chip? Why are we supposed to even worry about it? John makes a big deal out of it in Revelation so he must of thought it was an important part of his vision.
    Clearly it must be something important to God. Either God hates electronic banking or he hates to have His commandments changed at the whim of some pope.
    But suppose you are right and you make it into the millennium as a priest/teacher. Are you going to teach the world – survivors of the tribulation – to pray to statues of saints and to worship on Sunday? And will you still celebrates Christ’s birthday on the pagan day of Saturnalia? The actual birthday of Tammuz, the false savior of ancient Babel?
    And Easter for his mother Semiramis?
    So if God isn’t going to let people pull that kind of crap in His millennial reign, how do you think He feels about folks who are doing it right now? I believe He wants us to cut the crap and get on board now before it’s too late.
    Remember – Mystery Babylon is hated by God and the angels rejoice when it is destroyed. Babylon is symbolic for all the paganism in the churches today. God wants his bride to be pure and perfect. If grace were all we needed then why even have a tribulation? Who’s it for and why is it in our bible?

    I sometimes imagine if the devil was on TV in a covert ministry, what would he teach?
    “I am the devil – worship ME”? No – too direct. He needs to be more subtle.
    “Bow down to new gods?“ Worked for the ancient Israelites, but probably not today.
    “Go ahead and break God’s commandments – He no longer cares.“ – That might get God’s attention.
    “Hey, don’t sweat anything – everyone in the church is going to be raptured to heaven before anything bad happens.“ Well that would get him some followers, anyway.
    “If you want to be in my ministry you will all need to put chips in your foreheads.” – Now that doesn’t even make sense.

    So the “saved by grace“ and “saved by the rapture” are the only ploys that Satan can use here to be effective and not too obvious. And gee, you tend to see this almost everywhere today. Maybe that’s why God is holding a great tribulation. Well it must be for some good reason.

    Well, lets hear what Jesus Himself has to say:

    Mat 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Well, there you go – looks like when God’s kingdom on earth gets here those who are resurrected as priests/teachers will be teaching the commandments! And Jesus says He didn’t come to change the law one bit. The “laws” he fulfilled were the holy feasts – Passover, unleavened bread, firstfruits, etc. NOT the commandments.

    You can believe Jesus, or go with a clever interpretation of Paul who probably should have made his points a bit clearer.

    So to quote a line from Dirty Harry – “Are you feeling lucky?”
    Well are you?

    God bless! 🙂

    • James;

      Always an engaging and informative read! Thanks!

      (ps: I see you’ve come with a full moon. Can we expect your humour
      to be pure luna-cy from now on?)

      • Hi Richard,
        I took the moon shot last night outside my apartment. I’m creating a night scene with the full moon in the sky and decided to shoot a close-up of the moon to Photoshop into the time exposure of the ground. Figured after all that work I would use the photo for something else while I was at it.
        Also I went to college as an astronomy major in 1967, so I’m partial to heavenly bodies. 🙂

        • James;

          It’s a great shot and has the hallmark of an expert
          photographer,and sounds as if you are. What a gift/
          skill that is! I remember the Apollo 11 moon landing
          as a 13/14 year old in 1969, with those haunting live
          pictures from the moon, so it must have been a great
          day for you and your college associates! However,I do
          now believe that such exploration goes beyond the
          bounds God set for us, and it really is a result of
          scientific vanity, for which now seems to know no
          bounds, which ultimately is of no positive value to
          mankind,but rather satisfies the desires of the fallen nature with inevitable ensuing consequences.
          However,there is of course a positive side to science,
          with the telescope and microscope being two of the
          the greatest inventions, and it really is awe inspiring
          to see close up, the mastery of God’s creative power.
          If we could just look, and not touch, and spend the
          rest of the time praising God for what he hes done,
          instead of poking our “all knowing finger” in to
          God’s “untouchable creative mechanism”, then I think
          most of us would be happy to sit under “that tree”,
          and let the apples fall on our head, to fill our
          stomachs to our hearts content, and never feel the
          urgency to know what molecular structure is responsible
          for that heavenly flavour, and why the apples fell in
          the first place.(man only need learn by observation).
          It’s a strange old world, so lets yearn for that day
          whan we can all be back in that simple “garden”; with
          only our telescopes; after all, there will be many
          heavenly bodies that we will want to see close up,
          for which we are all partial to ! Happy squinting!
          End of rant!

          God bless you!

  150. Richard, Al, Gregg, James, leatherneck
    Get a Gravatar. It will be easier to idenify your posts. If you don’t want a picture of yourself posted, choose some icon. I like that Star of David siverglepha posted. You can even add text to the Gravatar. Lyndsey changes her gravatar all the time.

    Gravatar – how to get one

  151. Hi Richard,

    I appreciate the words that you have written above. As I said earlier, I agree with much of what you say.
    As a matter of fact, in taking the time to read that specific post again before responding, I would say that so far, we are at least 99.9% of the same mind set.
    I agree that confession, asking Christ for forgiveness daily, and a sincere effort of repentance is necessary.
    I agree as stated in my post above, that we are no longer under the law or commandments, but that in essence, they are now written in our hearts, and it is out of our love and desire to be obedient that we now fulfill them.
    Not in maintaining specific days, or in participating in traditional rituals, but rather in expressing a sincere love and compassion for others. Which Yeshua clearly demonstrated to the religious order of the day, had more righteous spiritual significance than the doctrines that they happened to believe in at the time.

    Where we do differ in one aspect, is where you say,”Contrary to what many think, being under grace is not a guarantee of salvation”.

    I suspect what would be the determining factor here, would be what ones definition or requirement would be, for being under grace. In what my personal faith consists of, that factor would be a sincere and complete acceptance of Christ within ones heart. A truly “born again believer.”

    And if that indeed is the prerequisite, then I believe that Ephesians 1:2-14 actually does “guarantee” (literally) our salvation.

    “2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth–in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    The word that is translated from the original Greek as “guarantee”, is the the transliterated word “arrabōn”.(Strong’s # 728) It’s definition is, ” money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid “.
    In essence, it is a security of a promise, or covenant.

    With that said, this is what I have discovered so far on my journey.
    Salvation is a process. The act of becoming born again through the gift of grace, instantly places us in the position of “Justification.” But in my opinion, salvation is definitely a life long, ongoing process.

    Justification (Strong’s # 1347, Dikaiosis, “the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to Him”) leads us to the process of Sanctification, (Strong’s # 38, Hagiasmos,”consecration, purification, the effect of consecration , sanctification of heart and life.”) which would then lead to our Glorification.

    Unfortunately, my beliefs can not be briefly explained. I can say that they are contrary theologically to that of Calvinism, or Arminianism in that I would be placed within the “Once saved, always saved” category.
    To elaborate on it in any detail, I would have to write a book. Thankfully, if you are interested, there is one already published and available. “The Kingdom, Power & Glory” by Chuck & Nancy Missler for the most part express’s what it is that I believe.

    James……. In respects to Hitler.
    Believing in Jesus, and surrendering yourself in humble servitude are two totally different things.

    Shalom in Yeshua

    • Hi Gregg;

      You are right..the Law is written on our hearts and it is the Holy
      Spirit which enables us to honour the essence of the Law, without
      having to know the letter of the law, as was the case under the
      Mosaic covenant, which, as we know, could not be honoured with human
      effort alone. Now that we under grace, and are empowered with God’s
      Spirit, we are now able to keep all commandments,by loving God first
      ,then our neighbours as ourselves, and along with the fruits of the
      spirit, will enable us towards our perfect goal to be Christ-like;
      which is how we will be identified when he comes for his flock.

      You have a finely tuned spiritual mind, Gregg..it is a pleasure to
      read your thoughts !

      Thanks for the suggestion of the book, but I don’t read “Christian”
      literature. I prefer the simple approach; God’s thoughts directly
      from His Word, convicted and sealed by the Spirit. I believe this
      is how we are to learn. However, being pointed in the right direction
      by people who truly know the Lord, should never be shunned,but in
      this case, I do not consider the people you mentioned to be in that
      class,by virtue of their teachings.

      God bless.

      • Hi Richard,

        Again Thanks, so do you.
        I don’t think that it is possible for us as believer’s to ever reach a full consensus on every topic. But really when you think about it, it’s not even up to us. 🙂 Thank God.

        I look forward to meeting you, whenever that may be.

        Shalom in Yeshua brother

  152. Gregg,
    I’m glad you agree that a person’s actions (works) are a part of the new covenant. But the big question is, what does “humble servitude” entail? How de we serve God? God has already told us how to serve Him – by following His laws and commandments. Has this changed? Here’s what Jesus said:
    Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    All will not be fulfilled until the second coming (at least) so we are still under the law. This will be our test during the tribulation. Those who have abandoned His commandments will receive the mark, those that keep them will not:
    Revelation 14:11-12
    11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    These verses make it clear that punishment will given to those with the mark, but those without the mark are “they tat keep the commandments of God.”
    Therefore we can only conclude that the mark is the breaking of a commandment.
    Guess which one…

    But many Christians choose to ignore these verses simply because it feels much better to believe that we don’t have to do anything more than say we believe Christ died for our sins and we are guaranteed salvation. I know we are supposed to have His law written in our hearts, but what does that mean? Actually, when God writes things like this He writes them into our right hands and foreheads. He puts His laws into our minds (forehead) and expects us to transfer them to our right hands (our deeds). So they are worthless in the mind if they are not practiced in our deeds. So it is a very slippery slope you and others are on. Unfortunately, the majority of Christians believe this and they are constantly bolstering each other’s beliefs on the subject. It’s like being hooked on drugs in a way. It’s a feel-good kind of religion. But this is part of prophecy, so it will not change no matter what I say. After all – the whole world will follow the beast and the true church is but a remnant. I’m just glad I’m in the minority here, otherwise I would be truly worried.
    Food for thought…
    Bless.

  153. Hi James,

    Well I believe we are just going to have to respect each others right to have different viewpoints. We certainly aren’t the first to do that.
    lol. Nor I suspect the last.

    I will respond to your post though, since you were kind enough to respond to mine. You ask above, “But the big question is, what does “humble servitude” entail? How do we serve God?”

    Well, I will respond with as to how, by simply stating what Yeshua Himself said as He addressed the multitudes in the beginning of Matthew Chapter 5:
    By being poor of spirit, by mourning, in being meek, by hungering, and thirsting for righteousness, by being merciful, by being pure in heart,
    by being a peacemaker. And if need be, by rejoicing in being persecuted for the sake of righteousness.

    By being the salt of the earth. By being a light in the world.

    James, I believe if you continue to read past the verse that you quoted above where Christ says, “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” You will see in verse 23, and 24 that He then makes reference to still requiring to make sacrifices on the altar.

    “23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.”

    May I ask you James, why is it that we don’t continue to do that now then, as a requirement of our faith? I suspect you might reply with something similar to, “Because Christ was the ultimate sacrifice in shedding His blood for the forgiveness of our sins.” or with words to that effect.
    And I would then wholeheartedly agree with you in that statement. Amen.

    So my next question would be, “Okay then, when was it that the New Covenant actually took effect for that to be true? Was it during the Gospels of Christ’s ministry, or did it begin in actuality at the time of His death, and resurrection?” It is my belief, at that point in time that the old passed away, and the grace of the new took effect.
    Then there was Pentecost, the gift of the Holy Spirit,and the beginning of the Church, and body of Christ.

    I would like to sincerely thank you for your concern regarding your beliefs in respect to the mark of the beast. However I feel quite secure in my heart in regards to my my beliefs, and don’t expect to be wearing a mark anytime soon. (or later for that matter)

    I do appreciate the time that you took to express what it is that you believe though James. Because whether I happen to agree with what you have to say or not, doesn’t diminish the fact that in taking the time to write, you have demonstrated that you care.
    God Bless you brother.
    Shalom in Yeshua.

    • “Okay then, when was it that the New Covenant actually took effect for that to be true? Was it during the Gospels of Christ’s ministry, or did it begin in actuality at the time of His death, and resurrection?”
      It is my belief, at that point in time that the old passed away, and the GRACE of the NEW took effect.”

      Just a small post-script with some scripture to support my belief.

      Matt. 27:50,51: “50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

      Mark 15:38,39: ” 38 Then the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. 39 So when the centurion, who stood opposite Him, saw that He cried out like this and breathed His last, he said, “Truly this Man was the Son of God!”

      Luke 23:45 “45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”

      Hebrews 6:19,20 “19 This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, 20 where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”

      Hebrews 10:19-21 “19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God,”

      All of these support the belief that the New Covenant began only after Our Lords blood was shed. It was only then that the veil of the Holiest of Holies was removed. The context of Hebrews 9 and 10 are a good read in respects to this topic.

      The old passed away, and God created the NEW.

      James,
      I don’t believe that we do good works, or have need to follow the Torah to attain our salvation.
      To me that is trying to add to what Christ has already done for us. He clearly stated,”That is is finished.”
      I believe that we do good works towards others, and follow the laws that are written upon our heart, because we have received the Spirit of the Lord “through salvation”.
      The reason that I added this, is because I have a question to ask you. Wouldn’t it be satan’s desire for us to believe that what Christ did for all of us wasn’t enough? That somehow it wasn’t sufficient, and that we have to add to it ourselves, by following the ways of the old?

      As you say, Food for thought.

      Shalom in Yeshua

      • Well Gregg.
        There is a difference between works and keeping the commandments. If you ask a catholic he will tell you that you must not only believe Christ died for our sins but you must be a devout catholic and participate in the sacramental “mysteries” of the church (confession, communion, mass etc.) and be Christ-like toward others. Slip up and you will burn in hell forever.
        Yet they deleted the 2nd commandment from the bible and violate the 4th every Sunday.
        So keeping God’s law and doing good works are completely different. The commandments were written in stone to remind us they are to last forever. In a few years the Wyatt Archaeological group will finally reach the ark of the covenant in Jeremiah’s grotto beneath Jerusalem and I believe at that time God will make it clear that they still exist (sorry Catholics) and are to be obeyed.
        What I don’t understand about the idea that the commandments are now “written in our hearts” and that is somehow enough for God. If we know them but ignore them, what is the point? We all know that it we become killers for the mob, we won’t see eternal life, no matter how much we love Christ, so what about the other nine? Just because most commandments are not against the law in most countries we somehow feel that God doesn’t think they are important either.

        I sometimes imagine a scene from the New Testament – Jesus dies on the cross and immediately the apostles go running thru the streets of Jerusalem shouting “Jesus is dead! The law is repealed! Eat pork, drink booze and party down – we’re free to do whatever we want.” This would have been great news to the Jews of the day. And the Catholics could have become a great party church.
        Well, that is what is happening today. Preachers everywhere are teaching “The commandments were nailed to the cross. Come to my church/buy my book and I’ll show you that you are sure to be raptured and you don’t have keep any of God’s laws to qualify – unless you really want to, which you should, but you don’t have to, so come follow me, and perhaps make a small donation while you’re at it.”
        For a while I used to believe that. I started out a catholic, then found the bible and was born again, but I believed in these popular ideas, mostly because they were what I heard first and were the most common.
        But something about them didn’t ring true with me so I studied harder and looked at what everyone else was saying. As I learned more and more, pieces started to fall into place and old beliefs began to fall away.
        As a former science student (astronomy and geology) and a working engineer and technical writer and computer programmer, my mind works in a very logical manner. I investigate everything carefully, compare theories and try to come to a intelligent conclusion.
        At the same time, I keep an open mind when new data becomes available (the hallmark of all of our great scientists (like Galileo). So I appreciate your comments as they give me opportunity to grow and learn. But I find that sometimes just as I’ve got my jigsaw puzzle almost finished, I run across teaching that requires me to toss out pieces rather than help me place more of them. I’m not expecting you to believe what I’m saying, I know I can’t do that with most people. All I can ask, or suggest, is to keep an open mind and read everything you can in opposition to what you currently believe. Give it sincere consideration and try to find blatant errors in it – obvious mistakes or deliberate fabrication. Do this with your own beliefs as well. In engineering/programming we call it troubleshooting. You have to make sure a circuit is going to work before firing it up just to see what will happen. I’ve been working on this circuit board called the Book of Revelation for some time now and it consists of many exotic and never before tested components. If we don’t get this one figured out it could very well blow up in our faces.
        So keep troubleshooting friends – and may God bless you in your efforts.

        • James;

          I do think we agree on this. Hebrews 10:16 states
          that the law is written on our hearts; and John 14:15
          states in Jesus’ word; “If you love me, you will keep
          my commandments”.I think it comes down to how we express
          this. The law certainly has not been abolished, since
          the unrighteous will be judged by it, Rom 2:12, but
          those who are covered by grace because of faith in Jesus
          ,are not subject to the law, whilst under grace.
          We do not of course forget the essence of the ten
          commandments, because we have to know that adultery,
          for ex. is a capital sin; but we are no longer judged
          by the law should we break a commandment under grace.
          However, genuine repentance will be necessary to
          maintain our position of grace; and there is no doubt
          that we can lose our salvation if we persist in sin after having tasted the goodness of God.
          “For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned”. (Hebrews 6:4-8)

          Hope you are well!

          God bless.

          • Hi Richard,

            I think that you explained the topic of law and grace well there.

            In regards to Hebrews 6:4-8, this is where I believe that God looks at our hearts.

            Many have messed up in their lives at one time or another, due to emotional difficulties in say, with dealing (or not dealing) with an abusive upbringing for example. Not necessarily because they turned from their belief in Christ.

            That is where I believe that the parable of the “prodigal son” comes into play. God knows why we fall from grace at times, and He knows where are hearts are when we do.

            “12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13 And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” Matthew 18: 12-14

            I personally am so thankful that He said…..
            “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” Romans 9:15 – Exodus 33:19

            Shalom in Yeshua

            • Hi Gregg;

              Thanks. With regard to Heb.6:4-8, there
              appears to be no doubt that these verses
              are referring to those who have continued
              unrepentantly in sin, and have become hard
              -hearted to the point where they no longer
              have the capacity or the desire for fellow-
              ship with God, so he no longer prompts
              with His spirit. I’m afraid this is a
              rather large spanner in the wheels of the
              “once saved always saved” bandwagon.
              However, the prodigal son came home to God
              ,because he was truly repentant. It’s that
              simple..thank God!
              Regarding the effects of mental and
              emotional trauma, God predisposes us
              accordingly, so that we all have an equal
              opportunity of salvation. If this were not
              so, it would be impossible for Jesus to
              execute judgment, since the criteria for
              salvation would be void. It is worth
              noting that many traumatized persons would
              never have accepted Jesus had they not
              been.
              Let’s not forget that only few will walk
              the narrow way to salvation.
              Regarding “God showing mercy”, I believe
              it relates to those whose mental faculties
              are impaired, which renders them bereft of
              accountability, due to,for example; Autism
              , retardation and brain diseases, etc.
              And the lost sheep; well, if it has one
              ounce of woolly sense, it will willingly
              return to the flock with it’s shepherd;
              if not, it’s a another woolly jumper for
              the devil to wear. Can’t wait to see him
              fleeced!

              Blessings in Jesus/Yeshua.

              • Hi Richard,
                Yes I agree with this as well.
                I apologize.
                I should have been more specific, and explained my definition of “Once saved always saved”.

                How you would have probably interpreted that phrase, would have more than likely been more closely asscociated to what it is that the “Grace movement” of today seems to be preaching.
                Teachers like Steve McVey for example.

                Forgive me.
                I believe that once you are born again, you will ultimately be saved, if you continually seek relationship.
                That would consist of confessing of sins, as the Spirit convicts us.
                Doing the best that we can, to sincerely be repentant.
                Surrendering of ego, and of self, daily and allowing God to fulfill His desire in your life. (etc.)

                I believe that salvation is indeed a free gift, however, that does not mean that we are not left without any responsibilities.
                Free gift yes, free ride no.

                The intention of our hearts to share in relationship, must be maintained.

                Hope that clears that up for you.
                (and for others.)
                Shalom in Yeshua

  154. I think that it important for all of us to recognize, that salvation
    under grace does embody requirements that if adhered to will make us
    truly Christ-like. Jesus, Paul and other categorically condemn false
    teachers and the resulting deadly false teaching, which I do believe
    to be rampant in the “churches”, together with pagan practices of
    “Babylon”. The true manifestation of a Christ-like disposition is
    purity, and this simply cannot be achieved amidst leaven.
    This really does determine the degree to which we desire to worship God in spirit and in truth…a theme expressly featured throughout the epistles, with the resulting consequences for non-compliance,
    clearly stated. What we must ask ourselves is; “Do we have love
    of the truth in us” ?!
    “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie” 2Thess. 2:10-11

    God bless.

  155. James and Richard;
    You got a gravtar. cool! Add some text to your gravatar. Those of you who haven’t done it, try it. Good Posts.

  156. Hi James,

    In respnse to your post above 01/23/4;07am.

    I constantly question through the Spirit what it is that I may be investigating , or exploring spiritually, before I ever allow it to rest within my heart. And the lid to my “box” is never locked when it comes to the word of God.
    I think all good Berean’s should be willing to take into consideration the view points of others, and then see if they line up within scripture. I think anybody who declares that they fully understand all things, are frankly deluding themselves.

    As I have stated, it is all a process. As we seek with pureness of heart, we are taught through Gods word.
    Though at the same time, I am more than aware that I do not have the intellectual capacity to ever fully comprehend it’s complexity. However, that does not deter me from still seeking, and attempting to learn what I can.

    And what I have learned is this; If you believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, the Son of God, and you believe that He shed His blood for us on the cross for the atonement of our sins, and you accept Him within your heart, then you are “born again”, and a new creation. Then if you are willing to “take up your cross” surrender your life as best as you possibly can to Him, then He will change you more and more, as you choose to trust and abide in Him.

    If we make that personal choice to do that daily, (though we will all falter from time to time), then that responsibility for us to change is solely up to Him.

    “It is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Phil. 2:13

    “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5

    I am clearly not capable of becoming sanctified, or Holy on my own. I need to fully rely upon God, Christ, and the Spirit to be my source in going through that process. So now it becomes the sincere desire, and intentions of my heart. Thankfully when I stand in front of Christ as He sit’s on the bema seat and judges me, He will know my heart.
    And if I am truly a child of the Father, then I will trust in what He said……..
    “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” John 6:39.

    Again James, I respect your right to have views that happen to differ from mine. However, (though this is just my opinion and I do leave this in the hands of God), I do fully expect to meet you, whenever that may be.
    We’ll have a cup of mana juice together, I hear that it’s good. 🙂

    Shalom in Yeshua

  157. The Mother of Harlots is Rome with her Babylonian Influenced Mix of Christianity and Paganism. She is the Mother of Harlots – Unfortunately the Harlots are the Majority of QUOTE Christian Churches today which follow man’s education and wisdom instead of the Spirit of God. Matthew 28:19 is taken literally when it obviously points to Acts 2:38. God becomes a Trinity when it is obvious that he is ONE. He can manifest himself in many ways but he is STILL ONE God. Trust in education and wisdom – the scribes and pharisees did also – I however trust in the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
    The Leopard-Lion-Bear of Revelation represents the area of the Middle east now controlled by Muslim Countries. Allah and Muhammad are the copycats of the True Church. The world doesn’t have to be deceived by the Devil because this is the end-time and the Christian Churches are already deceived by the wisdom of men and lulled by the cares and comforts of this world.

    When the Son of Man comes will he find Faith on the Earth
    Man Trusts in everything But God – he is the last resort after the doctors and counselors and worldly wisdom when he should be first.

    How can the worldly churches every truly understand Revelation when they have yet to receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ – The fullness of the Godhead bodily. These Three are one, I and my Father are one, I come in my Father’s name and you receive me not — able to see but still blind – I pray God open up the eyes of people but I’m afraid it’s too late for most – there is no great revival – just a great falling away – and it’s about over.

  158. You are right on about the paganism in todays churches – almost all of them. Just one note on the leopard, bear and lion though.
    We all know they are referencing the first three beast-kingdoms of Daniel’s statue – greece, Persia and Babylon, but they do not refer to the current real estate on which the ancient empires were built. After all Alexander the Great conquered India as well but nobody believes the Hindus are part of the prophecy.
    What John was showing here was that the paganism had its roots in Babylon (lion) and that it managed to propagate thru the successive conquerors (bear and leopard) until it reached the beast of John – the Holy Roman Empire. In fact the term “MYSTERY BABYLON” refers to a pagan Babylonian religion that was still around when the early Christian church was formed, which became a blend of Christian doctrines along with many pagan practices and holidays.
    Just because Islam grew up in the area of Babylon (actually it began in Saudi Arabia well to the south) doesn’t mean that the prophecy was referring to it. It is about the ancient cultures and religions, not who happens to be living there today.
    Sure, Islam is a false religion, but Jesus is not returning to marry Islam. He will be marrying the Christian church, but not before the pagan Babylonian influences have been destroyed. This is the entire point of Revelation and the mark of the beast will be to test and punish latter day Christians who do not obey God’s laws and who defile His church with pagan practices and rituals.
    Unfortunately, only a select group will pass this test. Most of the rest will follow the beast.
    May God bless all of us with the knowledge of how to pass this test.

  159. Click to access 11.fromhercup.pdf

    Saudi Arabia also has 7 hills.
    The real British monarchy was usurped in middle ages.

    http://www.juancole.com/2008/02/burkes-peerage-queen-elizabeth-ii.html

  160. I have found this thread to be very interesting. I am coming to the same conclusions shared on this thread. I believe that the Papacy is the great beast in Rev 13:1-10. The two horned beast in Rev 13 is the United States a nation coming up during the time that the Papacy lost its ability to persecute heretics by the power of the state when France took the Pope captive in 1798. The image to the Beast is that mixture of United States military power under the control and direction of the Papacy through diplomatic terms.
    Revelation 17 takes us into the wilderness where God’s Protestant church fled to from the attacks of the fallen church the Papacy – The Roman Catholic Church – see the woman in chapter 12 of Revelation. In Chapter 17 God takes John into the wilderness to see the progress of the Protestant church and finds it is now Babylon the Great Harlot. The Protestant church has accepted the principles of the Papacy, the sign of its authority – Sunday worship rather than the 4th commandment of God, she is willing to use the state to persecute heretics. Thus she looks, acts, talks just like the RCC. So she is a church unlawfully combined with the state. When she changes the constitution to unite church and state she will then finally act like the Papacy in that she will pass laws to stop people who theologically differ from her from buying and selling and eventually she will attempt to put all dissenters to death.

  161. For those interested in more study on ths subject please see my commentaries on Daniel and Revealtion at:
    http://www.the1844way.com

  162. The woman does not sit on seven hills but on seven mountains which are the seven empires. In Egypt she was known as Isis, in Babylon as Ishtar also with many other names like Astarte etc in different places. In Malta she was known as Queen of heaven. In pre-Islam Mecca as Uzza. Muhammed said in Hadith that “Paradise is the feet of the mother” Roman Catholic Church knows her as Virgin Mary or Queen of Heaven. Everywhere she is known as the goddess of fertility and mother god. She is nobody else but the presentation of devil himself who everywhere and at all times wanted to get people bowing him. Today she has been substituted as Mother Earth. Antichrist is not interested in women simply because devil is inside him after having thrown out of heaven and only requesting everybody to bow him. Nothing new under the sun. All the times people have been bowing one and the same “god”

  163. I tend to believe that the 7 hills is in Las Vegas Nevada.
    Shaken down by earthquakes–the whole world that arrives to it’s city will scream and be shocked by its fall and destruction. City of Babylon? Possibly. We will have to stay very close to God and Jesus and pray and wait upon him regardless. All true believers in Jesus will know when the time comes…if they are not sleeping.

    • Welcome G.W.77,
      Well this is a new one. I lived in LV for a little while and studied the geology of the area for a few years. Las Vegas or “The Meadows” is in a valley between two mtn ranges, part of the “Basin and Range” province of the southwest U.S. No matter how hard I try I can’t justify the “7 Hills” theory.
      But putting that aside, since a woman in prophecy always represents a church (either true or apostate) I’m trying to figure out exactly which church is headquartered in Vegas. Perhaps God wants to destroy all those quickie marriage chapels throughout the city. I’m for that.
      But here is my main thought. While gambling may be a sin, it is not even a commandment. If God is going to be so mad about something that He is willing to destroy it and even write it down in the bible, it ought to be something big. If Satan wants to get people to defy the laws of God he would not choose gambling. He will most likely trick real Christians into breaking the commandments maybe without them even realizing it. Now that would be a mark of a true beast.
      Anyway, I believe it is something to think about. It seems to be important that we understand it.
      More thoughts anyone?

      • Hi James,

        Just out of interest, could you quote me scripture as to where gambling is stated as being a sin?
        Thanks dude.

        • Hi Gregg,
          Actually I know of none. And while I’m not a gambler, I do sell a group of computer programs for professional horse racing players, so I’m hoping it is not a big deal to the man up there. After all, look at how popular bingo is at many churches. Guess they know something, so I’m not going to shut down my business any time soon.
          🙂

          • “Wise stewardship of extra money calls believers to invest it in the Lord’s work or to save it for an emergency, rather than lose it in games in which the odds are stacked against the player.

            Gamblers covet more money, but they may also covet the things money can buy, such as cars, boats, houses, expensive jewelry and clothing. The Bible forbids a covetous attitude in the Tenth Commandment:

            “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.” (Exodus 20:17, NIV)……

            …for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. (2 Peter 2:19) ”

            http://christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/f/isgamblingasin.htm

            • If you’re not careful how you interpret the verse you might never take your family on a vacation, or dine out or put a token in an arcade game.
              Some people like those here at my retirement complex enjoy an outing to a local casino as a form of entertainment and relaxation. They are not addicted to the love of money so I don’t think they are sinners for having an enjoyable “day out.”
              I think bankers, real estate investors and folks who play the stock market are more like what you are referring to.
              Of course it is those capitalists that built this country including the internet which we are using here for God’s work, so it’s a touchy question I guess.

          • Hi James,

            Nope, I don’t believe that there are any.
            The only reference to gambling would be in the “casting of lots” and even God Himself proposed that be done to make specific decisions.
            I think that it all comes down to the motivation in the heart of the individual.
            If you spend a buck or two on the lottery with the hopes that you could maybe win enough to make your future a little more secure, and utilize the excess as a tool to help and assist others, then that is okay with God.

            Yet if ones heart is simply set on gain and covetousness of things for yourself, then He may just have a problem with that.

            Like everything, I think that it all comes down to the motivations and intentions of our hearts. Just my opinion though.
            But no, I wouldn’t suggest that you shut down the ole business.lol.
            Blessings >

  164. I wasn’t refering to just the gambling my friend.
    I lived and worked in Las Vegas for almost 4 years..I won’t say at this time what drove me to leave quickly–one day I may.

    I DO tend to wonder if this isn’t the 7 Hills that John spoke of…why? Do your homework, the history, YES there is an actual 7 Hills that the city is built on, not to mention built on liquified sand–great for shaking and ‘sinking.’ The washes run under the entire city-under the casinos. New Years eve preps have the military down at the washes flushing for “B’s”…you did know about this also correct?

    You said that you lived there..well then you should know what it is like to actually live inside SIN city and what happens in regards to sin, inside this city goes so much further than gambling. Who do you think really OWNS these casino’s? Their money is from all over the world, elite people you will never see or acknowledge behind the glitz and glamour of the neon lights meant to mesmerize the blind.

    People from all over the world come to Las Vegas…they certainly don’t come over to the U.S. to stay in Idaho now do they? How many bride and grooms get married and where do they go on their honeymoon? LV. Are you kidding me? What a way to descecrate the Lord Jesus..to celebrate a sanctified marriage in Vegas? PUKE!–we are not talking about Elvis chapels Mr. blind man stop with the condecending attitude towards me. It does not matter what you can ‘fathom’ for your eyes are still blind.

    Many believe that the Whore “is a CITY built on seven hills.” If I could think of any whore in reference to a city…I would have to say Las Vegas. Read below, in context of LV.

    “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen!

    She has become a home for demons.

    She is a hideout for every foula spirit,

    a hideout for every foul vulture

    and every foul and dreadful animal.For all the nations have fallen

    because of the wine of her passionate immorality.

    The kings of the world have committed adultery with her.

    Because of her desires for extravagant luxury,

    the merchants of the world have grown rich.”

    “How terrible, how terrible for that great city!

    In a single moment

    all the wealth of the city is gone!”

    They will cry out as they watch the smoke ascend, and they will say, “Where is there another city as great as this?” And they will weep and throw dust on their heads to show their grief. And they will cry out,“How terrible, how terrible for that great city!

    In a single moment it is all gone.”

    HOW? HOW IN A SINGLE MOMENT CAN IT ALL BE GONE?

    Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a huge millstone. He threw it into the ocean and shouted,

    “Just like this, the great city Babylon will be thrown down with violence and will never be found again. Rejoice over her fate, O heaven and people of God and apostles and prophets!

    For at last God has judged her…..

    HOW? Since you lived there…you must know of all the nuclear waste storage there correct? BUT HOW IN A SINGLE MOMENT?? Earthquake! An earthquake of such magnitude that it brings it down…and the nuclear waste keeps anyone from returning…never allowing a rebuilding of a city such as this again.(Look at Japan and the nuclear radiation situation)

    All from every nation know Las Vegas–yup they would cry out and be shocked.

    WHAT HAPPENS IN VEGAS…STAYS IN VEGAS…ummmmm not really…you can’t fool God! wink-wink

  165. Sorry GW77 but I’ll never buy the idea that God wrote the last book of His bible to warn the Christian world that He will destroy a city, any city. Earlier someone made an identical case that Hollywood is Babylon. Others believe it is any number of middle eastern cities and others think it will be a reconstructed city of Babylon. But the fact is it will not be a city at all. As I said, in prophecy a woman always represents a church. The true church is the subject of Revelation 12 and the apostate church(es) are represented by the woman that rides the beast. Remember that the whore of Babylon has written “Mystery Babylon” and that she is the mother of harlots (other apostate churches).
    Mystery Babylon was an ancient pagan religion and it was carried down thru the ages to the Roman Empire where it was merged with early Christianity by emperor Justinian. These pagan practices are still in most modern churches, the catholic church more than any other and this is the “Babylon” that God will destroy before Christ returns to marry His bride – the true church.
    No, His wrath will not be focused on one little city. It will come against all of Christianity everywhere – wherever pagan Babylon can be found. You can’t escape it by simply leaving town.
    Also, I checked into the “Seven Hills of Las Vegas and here is what I discovered:

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Seven Hills, Nevada is a small subsection of Henderson, Nevada. Developed as a high-end, mostly gated community, Seven Hills has developed a reputation as “The Beverly Hills of Nevada”.[citation needed] Seven Hills is home to the founder of eBay Pierre Omidyar, Mike Tyson and others.[citation needed] Seven Hills is named after Seven hills of Rome.

    So even Las Vegas leads us back to Rome. The church of Rome is the woman and the beast (kingdom) it rides is the Vatican. What beast do you propose the city of Vegas is riding? It must be America. If so we are all in deep trouble. I guess then Obama is the antichrist. Actually many have claimed so, so you wouldn’t be alone.

    Well, let us know a little more about your interpretation. Maybe a few others will chime in and we can get a rousing discussion going.
    Always keep looking for the truth…

    • Hi James
      You gave me a brilliant idea by denying that it cannot be a city. And I agree. Then I started thinking that normally the clearest explanation is at the end of the story. Rev.17:18 the woman is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. During NT times it was Rome. But which city reigns now and how? How to reign the world. Simply by controlling the money and credit. Wall Street bankers have created today’s economical meltdown and practically every nation has been suffering of it. On the other hand if big investments are wanted the answer is credit. Who creates credit controls the world. If credit is not available you cannot make any big plans. The great city today is New York. Similarly During Jesus’ times Rome was the center. “Whose picture is on the coin…give it to him”. In ancient Babylon existed already banking and credit system and ever since it has been used in all seven empires. The whore is MONEY, MAMMON. Rev.17:16 “And the ten horns upon the beast shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate (laid waste) and naked and shall eat her flesh (steal the value)and burn her with fire.” When Europe started using Euro most countries simply burned their old money with fire and melted coins, also needs fire, because better money came. Germany did not. And ten kings in the coming eighth empire will burn all the money for cashless society to have again a better system. This thinking ends up also so that the mark of the beast will not be used before during the last seven years at the time when these ten kings have obtained power with the beast, Daniel 9:27 he shall confirm the covenat for one week with many. In Rev.17:12 And ten horns receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The biggest god to most people today is money, From the Lord’s point of view they go to the whore.
      During millenium no money will be used. As a present you have received, as a present you give away.

      • Still a little bit about seven hills. I doubt that such a translation is used therefore that Rome is expected to be the town and there are no mountains in Rome. The Greek word used is oros and oros is used 65 times and only three times it has been translated as hill. Luke 3:5 is using together mountains and hills. in Greek it is oros and bounos and according to Thayer’s lexicon bounos is smaller that oros. Thus Rev 17:9 reads in KJV the seven heads are the seven mountains. Where are the seven hills, I could not find.

  166. ex satanist explains why Sunday worship is imperative…very interesting…

    • Lindsey
      A former satanist saying that the leader of the satanists saying to leave the adventists alone. HMMM I Thought Satan was going after the saints, maybe they approve of what the adventists are doing. Watch the video again and look at his eyes, very shifty. then watch the video Marianne posted below for me.

  167. Hi Lyndsey,
    This is a great video, thanks.
    I’ve been saying for years here that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast – the mark being obedience to his system of worship and disobedience to the commandments of God.
    I especially appreciated his statement that only seventh day Adventists (which he noted were just a small group – a “remnant”} are immune to being fooled by their deception. We are the only ones who reject the idea of the RFID chip that 99% of modern Christians all believe will be the mark of the beast.
    This video is a great look into the mind-set of satan and how he thinks and works. Once you understand this it changes your whole approach to Prophecy. It doesn’t mean we are able to completely interpret all prophecy correctly (nobody’s perfect) but I do believe it gives us better insight in the direction to look when it comes to getting the big picture.
    I urge everyone who reads this to watch this video and to give it some deep thought and consideration and may the Holy Spirit guide you to the real truth!
    God Bless.

    • 🙂

      I have observed that it is usually the “least expected” that is most likely the truth….I say “better safe then sorry”. 🙂

    • hi James

      I am curious. This debate over Sunday vs Saturday.

      What do you say about those who officially worship on neither day, but spend time with God at home every day?

      WHere do they fit in?

  168. Sunday wotship and Sunday as mark of the beast doesn’t fit. Sun has been worshipped a lot also in ancient times but more than billion Muslims worship moongod (shown in their flags and everywhere with part of the moon and a star) with holy day being Friday. Would Christians start to cut off their heads if they refuse to mark themselves with Sunday mark? For them Muhammed brought the last message and their behaviour today in Egypt and Iraq is to kill Christians. No difference whether they are Catholics or Adventists. Betlehem used to be a Christian town but Muslims have expelled most of them.

  169. Seppo brings up an interesting point. To most Christians, Sunday worship as the mark of the beast doesn’t make sense. That is why it is so diabolical. Satan isn’t stupid. He is going to be so clever that almost no-one will believe they have the mark. Everyone assumes that the RFID chip will be the mark, and it would be obvious that you have taken such a device into your body, not to mention you would have to use it every time you bought something. And then there is the assumption that you would have to swear allegiance to Satan when accepting the chip, which would really only be coercion, nothing more.
    The devil doesn’t expect to get any real followers this way, so it would be useless to him. Instead, he will get people to reject God by rejecting His commandment(s). And what better commandment to use than the one most Christians are already breaking – the sabbath. And if you watched the above video, Satan worshippers do so on his day – Sunday. So Satan has two good reasons for using Sunday worship as his mark. You might not be worshipping him directly, but you will be doing it on his day and rejecting the day of our Lord.
    Now that’s clever!
    In fact, it is so clever that even when confronted with this explanation, most devout Christians still won’t believe it.
    Go ahead – tell me that you think I am wrong… you will make Satan very pleased with himself.
    Or as dirty Harry might say, “Go ahead, make his day!”
    🙂

  170. I wonder why using a chip to buy stuff is giving allegiance to Satan?

    • James
      I wonder why you never address the claim that I make, that the mark of the beast will be denying the trinity/divinity of Jesus? As you say, Satan already has many “followers” that deny Jesus’ divinity. Many “Christians” in fact, do not understand why this is an important part of the faith. In fact, by definition, you are not a Christian if you deny that “Jesus is Lord”. How will the Antichrist perform “signs and wonders” to make people worship on sunday? But if a relic of the church shows the blood of Jesus to be fully human, then how many will be swayed by this, even amongst the “elect” leaders of the catholic church and other churches that are trying to rejoin the catholic church. Belief in the divinity of Jesus is just that, a belief and not a work. A belief that is integral to salvation. Denying the divinity of Jesus is lessening the worth of his sacrifice, making it equivalent to the child sacrifices made to Milcom in the Old Testament, Thus it truly is “the unforgivable sin”. It is a form of Baal worship. Remember the blasphemies written on the beast’s heads: Blasphemy by definition is denying God. Remember also references to “babylon the great”, This “mark” ties old babylon to the new Babylon of revalation with this variation of Baal worship.

    • hi James

      While the chip may or may not be the mark, it might be part of “it.” Scripture says the mark is either in the hand or the forehead, which is where the mark is located. So, physically, it does meet this criteria.

      Taking the chip, or some other mark, would also require knowledge of who the beast is, and allegiance, and obedience to it.

      • Marianne, James
        The chip, or whatever the mark is, will not be what condemns, it is what we must do to get the mark.
        For James it is worship on sunday or else! For me it is deny Jesus is Lord or else! which sounds more damning?
        One is a work, one is a tenet of salvation. There is nothing we can do to merit salvation, If worshipping on saturday prevents us from being condemned, then someone who is not a Christian yet denies sunday worship for whatever reason (jehovahs witness for example) will be guranteed salvation even while denying Christs deity. It just makes no logical sense. I by no means condemn someone if they want to worship on the original sabbath, much like the messianic Jews do, But if this is the reason for doing so (mark of the beast) then you need to examine your motives.
        I am not a Christian because of the rewards I get, but because I owe my life to Christ for his sacrifice. In other words I am not motivated by reward or avoidance of punishment, but by repentence; a realization that I am unworthy of receiving these gifts of God, Yet he gives them by his grace!

  171. Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    • Judge not, lest Ye be judged. This applies to everything.
      God will judge you however. Go ahead, kill someone, steal a car or two, see if you will be judged for that come judgement day. Guess all Christians are exempt, so fire away. Got to go hold up a liquor store now, so I’ll catch you later…

      (Just trying to make a point…)
      🙂

      • James
        We are not denying the law, nor are we using grace as a license to sin. You however are denying the Word of God.

  172. Marrianne, and all,
    I would like to pull out a video here but unfortunately I have not figured this out yet. It can be found on youtube “wretched tv with todd friel on 7th day adventism.” I think it would benefit the discussion on mark of the beast.

  173. So Dru, let me get this straight. You believe a New World Order dictator will soon come to power and totally revamp the world’s monetary system, then do away with cash checks and credit cards, including PayPal etc., and require that 8-9 billion people get chips implanted in them, and on top of all that, everyone will have to deny the divinity of Jesus Christ as well.
    Well that would be fine for most of the world’s population such as Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindu’s, but it would basically wipe Christianity off the map. I admit, this would be mind-blowingly simple to figure out. Especially since virtually every Christian alive expects this to be the mark of the beast. You have to believe that every true believer would refuse the mark, or simply lie when taking the oath to reject Jesus or whatever. I wonder if they will make us swear on a bible? In any case I don’t think Satan will be so blatantly obvious, but that’s just my logical mind working. Of course if you are a rapturist, you are not expecting to be around for the mark – all Christians will have been whisked away to heaven. With no Christians left, it will be a hollow victory for Satan. He’s already got the rest of them.
    So time will tell on all that. I guess we don’t really need the bible to warn us about the mark. It’s going to be a no-brainer for all of us Christians.
    But here is a hypothetical for you.
    Suppose in 2013 president Palin institutes an anti-terrorism bill that requires an implanted ID chip for all Americans. Like the proposed US ID card only implanted to prevent tampering. So what will you do? Can’t be the mark of the beast – no allegiance to Satan. No New World Order, only for Americans, not the planet. What would you do? As long as you remain faithful to Christ, you are OK, right? Especially if you receive the chip in the Left hand rather than the right, no? Just wondering if prophecy is like horseshoes and hand grenades – close is good enough.
    Bless…

    • James
      I did not know that the adventists cheapened Jesus sacrifice on the cross. In that respect you already have the mark of the beast upon you. Were you coerced into being an adventist? or did you choose to be one? What you are believing in is a heracy, a corruption of the Word of God. In that respect I rebuke you for such belief. You really should consider repenting, Or as you like to say, do you feel lucky?
      You see James, Satan likes to deceive people, people who think they are doing what is right. That is a victory for satan, when he can deceive “the very Elect”. You are among the “elect” in your own mind, but it is you who are deceived by satan, He is claiming you as one of his victories. As you say, Satan is not so blatantly obvious, he has deceived you into believing his lie. Why do you think the satanist in the video Lindsey posted above said that the leader of the satanists said to leave the adventists alone? Because they cannot be deceived, or because they are deceived already. You are saying that Jesus was not God By saying that his sacrifice on the cross was not enough to cover all sin.
      As I have said previously, I do not know for certain what the actual mark of the beast will be, but I do know it will not be a work.
      Titus 3:9-11 says:
      “But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
      10. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him,
      11. Knowing that such aperson is warped and sinful; he is self condemned.”
      In this respect, I am warning you once, to repent of your ways now while you still can. Stop looking for yourself and your actions to save you, for they cannot, Only the blood of Jesus can cover all sin including the pride that does not allow you to see the error of your ways.
      May God reveal his love to you so that you can no longer deny his divine sacrifice. (A Blessing)

      • Hey Dru,

        I mean no disrespect in what I am about to say, but it is needful at this point. Below is a comment you made to Gregg under a different post;

        Gregg
        “Thank you for that site. I am not one to always look into the original text, but rather tend to allow the Spirit to lead me as i read the Bible.
        It always amazes me when I see these difference in linguistics, that the Spirit leads us to discover when we allow the Spirit to do its work.
        In other words, Not having any knowledge of the Hebrew or Greek myself, the Spirit leads me to the same distinctions as were made in the original text.”

        While all of us are discussing (might I say in a very strong manner) our views and beliefs of what scripture says, all the while, making pretty definite statements about various things, we, by in large, stay away from judging each other’s personal salvation.

        You suggested, on a different post, to have a “mission”, to find areas where we all agree on things and kind of curb the heated debate.

        Like I said before, heated debate is not neccessarily a bad thing. It implies passion and intensity. There is nothing wrong with that.

        But,your “Judgement” of James is ill advised. While we all make definitive remarks about the subjects we are talking about, we endeavour to stay away from personal attacks. I have made that error before and had to humble myself before that person. I had clearly over stepped a line that I shouldn’t have.

        In your statement above you make the comment that you are basically lead by the spirit and that you understand what the Bible pretty much means without study of the original language (just a paraphrase), given many of the things that you say, and your latest “warning” to James, your being lead by the spirit has become more like being lead by the seat of your pants. You will loose a lot of crediblility if you pursue this direction. Be careful and not get into your head that this is just persection for the place that the spirit has put you in. You are clearly wrong here and need to clear the air with James.

        I am being very direct here, but mean no disrepspect. I hope and pray for you only the best.

        Be Blessed in the Messiah!!!!

        • Al
          I thank you for the above statement. I Know my statements I made to James were harsh, to say the least. My point in doing the “mission” was to show that the blood of Christ covers all sins. That Jesus had to be divine in order for the sacrifice to be sufficient. I rebuked the message of James and his seventh Day adventists that deny the trinity/divinity of Christ thereby cheapening the sacrifice of Christ. Until I saw the video which I requested that Marianne put above for me, I did not realize that the Adventists had done this.
          I would do the same with Mormons, jehovahs witnesses, muslims, etc. In fact, any “religion” that denies the trinity is by definition a cult.
          The fact that James and other Adventists tend to “dodge” the issue bothers me.
          Perhaps my statement could have been said in a gentler way, and for that I am sorry, But his previous answer was equally as abrasive.
          There is one thing that I do stand by, You are not saved if you do not believe Jesus is LORD. He was LORD at creation, He was LORD to the Jews, He Was LORD at the cross, and he IS LORD today. Jesus was never a man glorified to Godhood. If you accept the depravity of man (repentence) you will realize that this is impossible. All men are condemned already to death. It is God’s grace that saves, not man’s work. Every Cult has a problem with the divinity, Adventists are no different, I do not care how Obedient they are to the law. We all have sinned.

          As for the comment about language I made to gregg, I was merely stating a point of praise, that though I am ignorant of the subtelties of ancient languages, the spirit still Guides us to proper understanding. (a miracle Perhaps)

          When I read James’ response above, I went and prayed for guidance from the Lord, He then led me to read those verses in Titus, a book which I usually flip past. When the spirit leads a person, to those in the world, it seems like we are flying by the seat of our pants. John 3:8 says ” The wind blows where it wishes, and you here its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes, SO IT IS WITH EVERYONE WHO IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

          As I have said before, I do not condemn someone for worshipping the lord on th seventh day, that is not the issue here. But denying the divinity of Jesus I do condemn. At least the muslims will argue this point out in the open rather than trying to hide that part of their beliefs. If you deny this Fact of salvation, the whole bible becomes merely another book of rules and rulers, and that is what satan wants.
          I believe in a living faith, in a loving God, that by his one sacrifice has forgiven all the sins of those that receive his gift. We CANNOT earn that gift. As I have said previously, the Holy Spirit does not lead us to break the law of Moses, but it leads us to obey the law with a pure heart. To me this is not flying by the seat of my pants, but being led by the Spirit.

  174. The RFID chip has to be tested at first somewhere and it looks like America will be the testing ground. It is not necessarily the mark of the beast in the beginning but as I have understood the target is to put into the chip mind control features and that makes it very dangerous. “You can loose your mind”

  175. Regarding Sabbath (Shabbat) “Shabbat frees us from our weekday concerns, from our deadlines and schedules and commitments. During the week, we are slaves to our jobs, to our creditors, to our need to provide for ourselves; on Shabbat, we are freed from these concerns, much as our ancestors were freed from slavery in Egypt. ”

    “Shabbat candles are lit and a blessing is recited no later than eighteen minutes before sunset. This ritual, performed by the woman of the house, officially marks the beginning of Shabbat. Two candles are lit, representing the two commandments: zakhor (remember) and shamor (observe), discussed above.

    http://www.jewfaq.org/shabbat.htm

    My thoughts:

    Observing the Sabbath (Fri eve at sunset to Sat eve at sunset-NOT SUNDAY) has nothing to do with salvation, period.

    However,the sabbath does have everything to do with obedience to our Heavenly Father!

    And NOTHING TO DO with WORK; it is freedom-freedom FROM work!

    And also Mark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: 28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    *As Christians, we are instructed to observe the sabbath as the Jews were and on the correct sabbath day!

    We are not “exempt” from this just because we were not “born” jewish. By being “born again” by believing upon a JEWISH MESSIAH then we should also adopt our Saviour’s instructions.

    *Notice, “therefore, the Son of Man (Messiah) is Lord ALSO of the sabbath. Jesus/Yeshua did NOT do away with the Sabbath day/Shabbat. Yeshua always observed the Sabbath as well. He just emphasized and demonstrated the purpose of Sabbath-which is FREEDOM.

    And another thought is this, those who are continue to worship on Sunday are taken out of Freedom and placed right back into Slavery. Again, the whole purpose of Shabbat is FREEDOM. By observing Shabbat on the wrong day, the day that was assigned by the Romans-NOT G-D-indirectly enslaves even christians to a “rule set by men” and NOT by G-d.

    ****G-d only sanctified the TRUE SABBATH, not SUNday.****

    This is my understanding and after learning when the true sabbath was, I was FREE to choose this day that the Lord chose and sanctified!!

    Exodus 20:11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE IT HOLY.

    For six days you may perform melachah, but the seventh day is a complete Sabbath, holy to the L-RD … it is an eternal sign that in six days, the L-RD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. -Exodus 31:15-17

    Deuteronomy 5:12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
    http://bible.cc/mark/2-27.htm

  176. Matthew 12:1-8
    1.”At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain to eat.
    2. But when the pharisees saw it they said to him,’look, your doing what is not lawful to do on the sabbath.’
    3. He said to them; ‘Have you not read what David did when he was hungry and those who were around him:
    4. How he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Prescense, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests?
    5. Or have you not read in the law how on the sabbath the priests in the temple profane the sabbath and are guiltless?
    6. I tell you, SOMETHING GREATER THAN THE TEMPLE IS HERE.
    7. And if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice’, you would not have condemned the guiltless(DISCIPLES).
    8. For the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath.'”

    1 Peter 2:5,9,10
    5. “You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, To be a HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    9. But you are a chosen race, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, a holy nation, a people for His own possesion, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
    10. Once you were not a people, But now you are GOD’S people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”

    I just thought I would throw this in the mix for those who insist on others worshipping on the sabbath. Hopefully you will make the connection I made. God bless.

  177. Yo Dru,
    First of all, I am not a member of the 7th day Adventist church nor have I ever read any of the writings of Ellen White. I am a member of the Philadelphia Church of God which was established out of the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert Armstrong independently of the 7th-day church. It honors the true sabbath as well as the Jewish festivals not yet fulfilled by Jesus and rejects all pagan practices and holidays such as Christmas and Easter etc.
    I have however, listened to many 7th day ministers and teachers on prophecy and biblical matters and I have never heard anything preached like your YouTube video preacher was mentioning. They all believe we are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross as the true son of God, exactly as you believe. They believe we are saved by grace alone and works are not necessary – a big fallacy of the catholic church which is the woman who sits on 7 hills. They in no way deny the divinity of Christ so your YouTube blowhard is making false accusations and generalizations about a church he obviously knows nothing about – and neither do you. There is NOTHING taught by the 7th day Adventists that is not taken directly from the bible. They believe the bible interprets itself and there is no need for church committees to add to or subtract from God’s word. Did you know that the “Trinity” was debated by the Catholic church for over 200 years before it came up with it’s current theory? Oh sure, now everybody is on board with it, but there is no definition of it in the bible, only verses that may hint at it. Like much of scripture, it can be defined any number of ways, and was considered a mystery for over 1000 years. Now all of a sudden, people are convinced that if they don’t believe the Catholic church’s papal declaration of it, that they will have the mark of the beast. Of course, none of it fits with prophecy. Please show me in the NT where Jesus tells us we must worship the trinity or we are not saved. We are to worship the father through His son Jesus Christ. The mystery of the trinity will be revealed when He returns. To think that having to unravel that mystery in order to reveal the mark of the beast is insane. We could argue it here for another 200 years. But we all know what day the true sabbath is. That one is clear and simple. The only question is, does God still care about it? Should we care about it? I say yes. Most say No. Some say I don’t know. (Did you just sing that?
    Anyway, as Lyndsey said above, keeping the sabbath is a belief, not a work. Obeying the commandments is not works, it is obeying a loving God. the mark of the beast will be a test, on that we can agree. But who will be doing the testing? Satan or God?
    If it is God, then what will the test be? Have you checked into His previous tests? Doesn’t He always have dual fulfillments? So the mark of the beast must have already happened sometime in the past, right? Just check the Book of Revelation:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

    Well from this it is perfectly clear that there were “fellowservants” who were killed for refusing the same mark from the same beast once before. And what was that mark? Well, it says they were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. So what is “The word of God?” Is is the trinity?
    Well, I must assume these people were the true church. They were being persecuted by Satan even back then. See what Revelation 12 says about the true church (the woman in pure white) :
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Oh look! The true church keeps the commandments (word) of God. Of course they also have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so they are Christians, not Jews.

    Now what about the modern saints? :
    Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Oh wow! Here it is again. Those with the mark are tormented, but the true saints keep the commandments! Golly, I guess God still keeps tabs on our sins.

    In case you still don’t believe that, check out Revelation 9:
    In regards to the 6th trumpet:
    Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

    Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    Oh crap – looks like you may have to repent of your sins after all. Thought you were going to be guiltless because there is no more law? Think again. And note this – it is quoting commandments and it calls them works of the hands. Remember the mark in the hand (works) or forehead (thoughts)? NOT literally in your hand. Not a real mark or chip or whatever. Check your concordance for mark. Mine simply says “seal.” Remember how God will seal the 144,000? They are sealed in the forehead (mind) with the word of God. These words include His commandments. (Read Exodus for more on the commandments). If we are sealed with the word of God we will avoid the seal (mark) of the beast.

    Is any of this sinking in yet. The hints are everywhere. Why do you think I believe this stuff? Because someone on TV told me to believe it? I’ve tried to interpret Revelation your way – for years, believe me. Too many pieces didn’t fit. The schematic didn’t work. Go ahead, wire up your interpretation your way and see what happens. Too many loose wires. As we say in the engineering game – “Careful when you power up that baby – the damn thing’s liable to blow up in your face.”

    So as I always say…
    Good luck with that!

    • James
      As always James, you ignore what you want to about what I say.
      First of all, you say you believe in the divinity of Christ, then you proceed to show that for two hundred years this was debated in the early church.Hmm I wonder how many people were persecuted because they believed in the trinity? You say the bible is vague with regard to its teaching on the trinity, I say the entire book of John was written to prove that Jesus was God as well as all the Pauline epistles. In fact, it is for these claims, that the Jewish people Killed Jesus, Persecuted the disciples, martyred Stephen etc. Hmmm the mark of the beast as you say. How many Christians have been killed by muslims throughout history for believing in the divinity of Christ. etc.
      I know that there were Christians that were killed by the catholic church for worshipping on saturday, as there were christians that were persecuted for baptism by immersion, Yet i do not claim that baptism by sprinkling is the mark of the beast. Being a baptist myself, shouln’t I be a proponent of this? Why is it that so many cults do not believe in the trinity/ divinity of Jesus?
      Acts 16:31 “And they said believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
      John 20:31 “But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his NAME.”
      John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
      John 8:58 “Jesus said to them, ‘truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM (Yahweh)’ 59. So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple”
      You asked me for verses that show the divinity of Jesus and that we must believe for salvation, I gave you four, do you want more?
      Yes the trinity as a word is not in the bible, it is a theological concept come up at a later date, which is proved by the words of Jesus himself. Similar to the concept of Imputation. It is proved without a doubt in scriptures. The fact that you want proof for this shows me that you do not believe in the divinity of Jesus, and that you believe he was an exalted man.?
      Now to the part about obeying the law. You say I do not believe in the commandments. on the contrary I do. this is where you misrepresent what I am saying. I believe that the Holy Spirit will lead us to obey the commandments with a pure heart. The holy Spirit does not lead us to sin. But the work of the Holy Spirit is often blocked by us because we think we can do it better. That somehow our asceticism will justify our obedience to the law. this is putting our work ahead of God’s work in us by his grace. this is akin to setting ourselves up on a throne that should only be occupied by God. This is Blasphemy, Idolotry.
      When you quote revalation 12:17 you stress the ones who obey the commandments of God, and you ignore the part about “testimony of Jesus”. What is the testimony of Jesus, but the Divinity? Jesus Called himself the I AM in the verse I mentioned above. I AM is the literal translation of Yahweh. This is the testimony that Jesus made of himself. I Hold to the commandments of God because of the testimony of Jesus, and being led by the Holy Spirit. We are to be a “Holy Priesthood”, which means so long as we are doing the Lords work, the laws of the sabbath do not apply, and the Holy Spirit has not led me to obey them. This does not mean that I will never be led to obey that law, But as for now I believe, as with the priests of the Old Testament, we are held guiltless for this. For i believe that something “greater than the temple is here”. AKA God with us. This is the testimony of Christ as well.!
      You do this again in quoting Revalation 14:12 you focus on the keeping of the commandments And O wow here it is again, “their faith in Jesus”.! Why is it that you ignore the second part of these verses? I gave you my reason, from the word of God, why I do not hold to the sabbath commandment, now why is it that you deny the testimony of Jesus?
      As I said in our previous discussions, repentence is the remembering of our salvation, of our unworthiness to save our selves, and of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross which covered our sins (all of them), when we are not doing God’s will, we have to be reminded of the sacrifice say we are sorry, and obey his will. In the Old Testament, repentence was about tearing off ones clothes, and lying face down on the ground for long periods of time to show that our heart was repentent, for us as Christians under the new covenent, repentence is remembering why all our sins are covered. This shows that our heart has been changed already.
      Are you saying we should tear off our clothes and repent or are you resting in the fact that Jesus sacrifice on the cross covers all our sins. This to me is holding to the testimony of Jesus, which you are so quick to discredit, this is faith in Jesus not in man’s works, This is loving the Lord with all our hearts and not the Idolotry you are holding to.
      You see, James, you sit there and put yourself on a pedestal in boasting about your works, and berate my belief in the testimony of Jesus. The fact that I choose to be led By the Holy Spirit, and not by my own understanding and authority may be mocked by you, But I know God Gave me the Holy Spirit as a gift of his grace, to comfort us on this walk we are taking in this life. I would rather be led by the spirit than by my own understandings, for my own understanding perverts the Gospel as it has done for you. See for you, I am a “stone of stumbling and a rock of offence” but to God I am a living stone “chosen and precious”, And whoever “believes in Him(Jesus) will not be put to shame.” ” So the Honor is for you who believe”

  178. Some thoughts of my thinking how three can be one and one can be three.
    John 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. Jesus created everything
    Jehovah tells:
    Isa 48:13
    Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: [when] I call unto them, they stand up together.
    Isa 51:5
    My righteousness [is] near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
    Isa 59:16
    And he saw that [there was] no man, and wondered that [there was] no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
    Similarly, like Jesus is Jehovah’s arm people in Christ are members of Christ’s body and thus one in Christ and we all will speak in the future in one spirit but with many personalities like Jesus said about Father: John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    1Cor 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body – though many – are one body, so too is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.3 14 For the body is not one member, but many.
    Thus being in Christ we are one with him and also one in Jehovah who is head of everything and then the prophecy given in the law will be fulfilled: John 10:34
    Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

  179. Hi Dru,
    Let me make one thing perfectly clear. Like all true Christians I believe that Jesus is, was and always has been divine. Is He a separate being from the father or are they the same – that is the mystery. When Jesus walked the earth he was a man. He has to eat, he bled and he died. Did the father die too? Or did Jesus never die because he was already God with eternal life? The whole thing defies logic. That is why I call it a mystery. At the end of the millennium we will all become sons of God – we will be part of His family and Christ will be our brother. That is another mystery. It is beyond our understanding right now. It is like trying to prove how God parted the Red Sea and performed all the other miracles. They are a mystery for now. You may think you have those answers but it is pure arrogance.
    I prefer to humble myself and just let God do his work.
    And speaking of that, you said “We are to be a “Holy Priesthood”, which means so long as we are doing the Lords work, the laws of the sabbath do not apply, and the Holy Spirit has not led me to obey them”
    So we are supposed to do the Lord’s work after all then, right? But doing His work does not include obeying His laws? That makes no sense to me.
    As the scripture says, you must obey the commandments AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. BOTH must be done. Keep the commandments but reject Christ – you will have the mark. Accept Jesus but reject His father’s laws – you’ve got the mark.
    As many of us have been telling you, following the law is not working. God expects you to do both. Sure, you will receive eternal life just for believing, if that’s all you want. And if you get to the tribulation you will survive the plagues (although it says you will wish you were dead during the process) and make it into the millennial kingdom, but you will be the “least” in that kingdom.
    It’s up to you. You say we should obey God’s will, yet you don’t know what His will is. His will is simply to obey His commandments which He personally wrote in stone for all time.
    “Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven” Jesus said this prayer, to His (our) father, who art in heaven and followed His will while here on earth as an example to the rest of us.
    Will you follow Christ or just use Him as a tool for eternal life?
    As for the Baptists, I’m not sure what they believe in particular, it seems like there is a diverse set of beliefs amongst the faithful, but I can tell you one thing – any church that observes the sabbath on Sunday, or celebrates Christmas, Easter, lent etc, or uses any practices based on babylonian-roman paganism (Mystery Babylon) such as the use of vestal virgins (nuns) prayer beads (rosary), holy water,infant baptism, confession, graven images, statues, wedding rings, pagan crosses and symbols and dozens of others I could mention, are APOSTATE. They are the Babylon that will be destroyed before Christ returns to marry the true church. They are the whore of Babylon and her harlot daughter churches. God will not cut us Christians any slack. Remember that Christ rebuked all but one of the churches in Revelation 3. That was a preview of Revelation 17. Do you think before He returns He will rebuke the Muslims? Many do. They fear their own shortcomings and wish it away to someone else. God has never punished anyone other than His own people except in war. Oh, they’re gonna get theirs, that’s for sure. That will be the war of Gog and perhaps again at Armageddon, but the woman of this blog is His church. Christianity will be judged. That is the message of Revelation. The temple will be cleansed.
    How can there be a judgement without the law? There would be no reference point. If you believe there is only one law – “Jesus Is Lord” then there won’t be much sense in any judgement of Babylon. We may as well just sit back and wait for the rapture. Maybe it will happen tomorrow. Or maybe the next day. In any case our faith alone will protect us from the mark. Heck, we won’t even be here so why sweat it. That’s a very simple and hopeful solution. Maybe that’s why it is so popular nowadays.
    Too bad it’s only wishful thinking.
    I look forward to your rebuttal.
    🙂

  180. James
    It is good to hear that you believe in the trinity/divinity of Christ. Even the Demons believe and shudder. Now take the next step and live by faith. “But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the NEW WAY of the Spirit and not in the OLD WAY of the written code.” Rom 7:6 The works of faith is what we will be Judged by, AKA the “Fruit of the Spirit”.

    Take the time to read Roman’s with an open mind, and you will understand my distinction here.
    May God reveal the Truth as you read and free you from the bondage you have placed yourself under. A blessing (perhaps)

  181. revelations mentions the fiery red dragon who gives power to the beast , the fiery red dragon must surely be china ,

    • hi Chris

      I guess on a political level, that could be true of China, seeing how it is controlling the world money system now, and would align with the antichrist. On the spiritual level, one would say the dragon is Satan.

  182. It’s been awhile. I wonder if this gets posted.
    http://news4themasses.wordpress.com/2011/05/16/christian-socialists/

  183. Prendendo in considerazione la teoria che “Babilonia la Grande” fosse Gerusalemme ho esaminato alcune scritture di Ezechiele 16 e molte coincidevano con essa ,ma una in particolare ha sorto un dubbio a questa mia covinzione :
    Parlando di Gerusalemme vi viene scritto “di lei vi sarà detto”tale è la madre,tale è la figlia” …ora Gerusalemme ha delle sorelle prostitute ,tutte provengono da una stessa madre ,ossia “la madre di tutte le prostitute” ,ma chi è questa “madre” ? viene precisato che la madre della Gerusalemme terrena è un’Hittea! Questo mi ha incuriosito parecchio e facendo delle ricerche sono arrivata a scoprire che la terra degli ittiti era Antolia ossia l’attuale Istambul…capitale dell’Impero romano conosciuta anche come la “Grande Città” e che questo popolo era nominato per la sua lavorazione della porpore e scarlatto…
    Ora,prendendo in considerazione che gli Ittiti si dichiaravano”servi degli dei”,possiamo comprendere quanto grande sia stato il loro adulterio agli occhi di Dio,e gli ebrei ne furono influenzati in questoe !
    In Apocalisse Giovanni ,guardando la Grande meretrice,si meravigliò di tanta meraviglia…Gerusalemme sarà anche bella ma non al punto da far meravigliare l’apostolo Paolo come se vedesse qualcosa di unico ai suoi tempi …e sfido chiunque a non lasciarsi abbagliare dalla bellezza di Istambul! (La stessa cosa penserei del Vaticano ,maestoso ma non meraviglioso) Se prendiamo come teoria gli Stati Uniti ,le sue coincidenze mi sembrerebbero ovvie da non poter risultare un gran “MISTERO”!!!
    Ora non voglio affermare nulla dal moento che le mie ricerche sono ancora in atto,ma non scordiamoci che Costantinopoli,per molto tempo,ha controllato le rotte fra Asia ed Europa,così come il passaggio dal Mar Mediterraneo al Mar Nero ,diventando un ottimo punto di commercio marittimo per la quale molti commercianti navali si sono arricchiti e molte nazioni hanno trattato con lei ed è una città che ha ospitato una moltitudine di popoli,lingue e nazioni …tutt’oggi risulta una gran città turistica ! ciao ciao

    • Translation:

      Taking into account the theory that “Babylon the Great” was Jerusalem, I examined some of the writings of Ezekiel 16 and many coincide with it, but one in particular has built a doubt in my covinzione:

      Speaking of Jerusalem there is written “you will be told of her” this is the mother, so is her daughter “… now Jerusalem sisters prostitutes, all from the same mother, ie the” mother of all prostitutes, ” But who is this “mother”? is clear that the mother of the earthly Jerusalem is un’Hittea! This intrigued me a lot and doing research I came to discover that the earth was the Hittites Antoliva that the current capital of Istanbul …

      Roman Empire also known as the “Big City” and that this people was named for its purple and scarlet processing …

      Now, taking into consideration that the Hittites called themselves “servants of the gods”, we can understand how great was their adultery in the eyes of God, and Jews were influenced questoe it!

      In Revelation John, watching the Great Whore, he was amazed at such great … Jerusalem will be good too but not to the point of the Apostle Paul as a surprise if he saw something unique in his time … and I defy anyone not to be dazzled by the beauty of Istanbul! (The same thing I would think the Vatican’s majestic but not wonderful) If we take the U.S. as a theory, its connections seem obvious to me that it can not be a great “Mystery”!

      Now I do not want to say anything since moento that my research is still underway, but let’s not forget that Constantinople, for a long time, has controlled the routes between Asia and Europe, as well as the passage from the Mediterranean Sea to the Black Sea, becoming an excellent maritime trade for which many traders have become rich naval and many nations have treated her and it’s a city that has hosted a multitude of peoples, languages ​​and nations … today is a great tourist city! hello hello

  184. this article is false. notice how it says the woman is clothed in purple and scarlet and decked in gold and precious stones and pearls. islam nor any other religion that is near any other city that is on 7 hills is clothed in such a way, except for the roman catholic church. further, present in the roman catholic church are the same occult symbols that were around in ancient babylon when the mystery religion started under nimrod and semiramis. so yes the city is rome, and the woman is the roman catholic church. do not be deceived people, this website is full of false doctrine.

    • hi sam

      I appreciate your zeal for your faith. This website offers different views, which can be debated. The idea is to find the truth through discussion.

      I had personally put this post here because I considered the catholic church a dead church, and islam is presently more a threat to the world and true believers than the catholic church, which has been losing followers over time.

      this website has about 550 posts, on all sorts of subjects, so please do not write this site off too quickly.

      There are posts that also give reasons to support the “woman is rome” position, like this one:

      Is the "Beast" Rome?

      So it tries to keep a balance of opposing views.

      Here is an alternate view:

      Leopard 4th Beast

      as far as the described clothing for the woman, I consider them purely symbolic, but I am sure some of the symbolism is based on reality…..they could be considered roman or babylonian….

      I want people who come here to think for themselves, and not just go by what others has taught them. Getting into discussions debating various viewpoints helps this thinking process.

      God bless you for your devotion to Jesus and the truth.

  185. JERUSALEM ISRAEL AND JEWRY ARE THE WHORE.

    We know this as the Bible tells us (rev 11:8) its WHERE Christ was Crucified.

    Jerusalem also rests on 7 HIlls.

    Google: Jerusalem Whore of Babylon

  186. So God is going to destroy Israel and Jerusalem and all the Jews before He returns to rule the world from a city that is essentially destroyed and gone? Sounds crazy to me. I thought God loves Jerusalem, and the Jews are His chosen people. Seems unnecessary and over the top.
    Plus Israel and Judaism doesn’t match up with the description of the whore.
    And what kingdoms are the two beasts of Revelation? And who will the false prophet be – a rabbi?
    The Book of Revelation is a Christian thing. Its not for the Jews or the Muslims. Its for you and me. It tells us what will happen to God’s people before He returns to marry the true church. It is about the cleansing that will take place. Everything else is peripheral and irrelevant. Sure, stuff will happen. But this book is not about that stuff.
    That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

  187. please can someone try to read revelations 17:18. The adultrous woman is simply USA – the one country where people have the most diverse ideas of God and christianity (which ofcourse leads to blasphemy), where pornography became popular and highly recognized. Even american teens have sex at their young age and their parents seem to do just about nothing about it. The home of serial killers and all sorts of cults. It can only be USA.

    • hi good guy

      true, that description fits America, and every other sinful nation in the world

      Do you know a country that is without sin?

    • Hi Good Guy,
      The thing you must remember is that a woman in prophecy always represents a church – either true or apostate. In Revelation the woman in white is the true church and obviously the whore dressed in scarlet is an apostate church. The Book of Revelation is all about the second coming and the marriage of Jesus to the true church. He will destroy the false church (on the day of atonement most likely) before His marriage.
      His millennium church will probably not look much like any modern Christian church – it will probably look like the church at
      Philadelphia (See rev 3) as ministered to by the apostles.
      In any case, God will not be destroying any countries. Why would He?
      Like Marianne said, all countries are sinners so to be fair He would have to destroy all of them. And what about countries like China and India who are totally anti-christian? Why pick on America who has more true believers than anywhere else?
      No, it is not about countries, but churches – including yours. The question you must ask is – is your church wearing white or is it stained with scarlet?
      Don’t expect to just sit back and watch God destroy any country while you skate thru the tribulation. You will be tested for your faith.
      Ask not for whom the bell tolls – it tolls for thee.

  188. Hi Marianne and James Giordano

    In responce to your comments, i would like to quote revelations 17:18

    ‘And the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reighneth over the kings of the earth.’

    I would also like to draw two conclusions from this particular verse.

    – The first is that the bible does not specifically say that a woman must be the convenctional sign for a church in any vision. As a mater of fact, that passage was actually the interpretation of the vision by an angel of God to john and it states that the woman is a CITY … and not a church. (Note that then, a typical city could be as large as a regular country as at now).

    – The second thing i would like to say is that there can be only one country that fits the description. That country, according to the words of the angel, has to be THE most powerful country in the world. There’s only one most powerful country in the world and that is America. Besides, it also has to have a lot of blasphemy and fornication in it, and that is still a characteristic property of America.

    So to James, the woman is not a church this time, and to Marianne, pardorn my earlier presentation … but its not really about a country’s sin but about the revelation of the mystery of the beast by the angel to John.

  189. good guy,
    The mention of the great city is a hint as to the church of the whore. It also says that the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. The woman (church) is headquartered in the city of 7 hills – the city that reigneth over the kings of the earth. In Johns time, Rome was that city, and the Roman Catholic Church is the woman.
    The US has never reigned over other countries and it does not sit on seven hills. And I’m not buying the idea that a city could also mean a nation. Except perhaps for the Roman Empire.

    As for the US being blasphemous, that makes no sense. The US constitution allows total freedom of religion. It does not take sides. There are some churches in the US that are blasphemous, and some people, but NOT the government. Only a church can be blasphemous unless the country is a religious kingdom. We are not. Your blasphemous reference can be applied to the Roman Catholic Church which is richer then any nation on earth. The US is in debt so far it may never get out of it. Many people are out of work. And our military is so overtaxed we have little power over other nations. And we don’t have the will to use it.
    By the second coming, China will be the richest and most powerful nation on earth, and since they deny Christ you could call them blasphemous as well.
    Here are some references to the Prophecy Code in regards to a woman:
    Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
    Woman, Impure or Corrupt = Apostate Church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4
    There are dozens of other coded words that the bible uses to decode prophecy. Once you learn these codes you can understand the Book of Revelation much easier.
    Here is a link to part of Revelation with the coded words inserted in the text. Read it with an open mind and see if it makes more sense:

    But if you still think the woman is the US, then who is the beast that it rides? What is the meaning of 666 in this regards and why will the world follow the beast that the US is riding? You must get all of rev 13/17/18 to fit this theory, not just one or two verses. So please fill us in on some more details. Maybe you can change some minds here.
    🙂

  190. Hi James
    I guess the problem is that we don’t seem to read the bible the same way. I like taking extreeme care to make sure that any conclusion i make can be traced back to the bible. So all i need you to do is to tell me the passage(s) of the bible that states that the mention of the great city is a hint as to the church of the whore so that i can accept that idea. Also when i said the US was blasphemous, I didn’t mean everyone in the US was blasphemous. I ment many people in the US, both inside and outside the churches. This is quite obvious since the US constitution actually allows freedom of religion (and i don’t mean to say that it is a bad move. I’m just trying to convince you more, in case you are not an american). As for the beast that the whore rides, the meaning of 666, and the other signs, i’m not yet clear on what they mean (just me taking extreeme care). That’s what actually led me to this sight. When I get more understanding of these things, i’ll let you know. 🙂

    • Hi Good Guy,

      Welcome to the site.

      I just thought that I’d let you know, that many of the participants here possess conflicting view points regarding a variety of topics.
      With that, due to the nature of these discussions, the debates can sometimes become quite passionate. However don’t let that intimidate you whatsoever. If you believe that you have an understanding of a biblical truth, and can support that truth with scripture, then express it.

      I happen to like James, he is intelligent, witty, sarcastic, and at times condescending, (we are two peas in a pod), yet at the same time, we happen to be polar opposites in respects to our theology. He and I have gone back and forth on many topics. We will attack each others beliefs, yet we won’t attack each other, (though I expect that we have both restrained ourselves at times). 🙂

      I believe that as the children of God through the blood sacrifice of Yeshua our Savior, we all possess a certain amount of truth.
      And the more time that you spend in the word, the more that one hopes that this truth will be revealed to us. However there is that paradox of the more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually know? (The limited human mind attempting to comprehend the infinite.) Nonetheless, we try here.

      Any way’s, my point is that if you happen to disagree with someone, to not be hesitant in challenging any given statement that they make.
      For example, if I happened to be you here, and wished to engage James in “another” discussion regarding some of the specifics that he has stated above, I just might perhaps, throw out “Isaiah 13:8 where in prophecy the word woman does not refer to a church.” (Neither would Isaiah 26:17., Isaiah 45:10 etc.) I would perhaps suggest that the word “woman” when utilized in prophecy would have to be understood correctly, by the context as to how it is placed within the surrounding text and narrative, (rather than simply jumping to a preconceived conclusion that it is representative to that of the church).

      But hey….. That’s just me. lol.

  191. Well said Marianne.
    Were are here to teach and to learn so we must all put forward our interpretations and let the reader decide what to believe.

    That said, I decided to check out the passages you mentioned in Isaiah, and here they are:

    Isa 13:8
    And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.

    Isa 26:17
    Like as a woman with child, [that] draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, [and] crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O LORD.

    Isa 45:10
    Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

    While you are right that these do not refer to a woman, but they also do not refer to Israel or America. In fact, the first two verses are simply metaphors for pain. Jesus used the same type of metaphor in some of His prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem (which many believe refers to future events as well).
    So a woman in travail is not even a woman, it just means pain.
    So we can toss these two out as examples of women in prophecy.

    The last one simply asks the reader who has begotten them, obviously referring to their mother, so it is simply another turn of phrase, not a biblical symbol for something else.

    So sometimes a woman is just a woman, but these cases are obvious. But I still contend that when used as a prophetic symbol, it refers to a church, including the bride of Christ. No one believes that Christ will marry a country and exclude the rest of the world. It is obviously His church. But if you believe that in the Book of Revelation a woman can be Israel, then the U.S., then the true church you open the door for an infinite number of interpretations. I believe God is consistent and steadfast. He is not the author of confusion. I guess it’s my engineering background, but I can’t imagine God writing such a hodgepodge of symbolism.
    But that’s just me.
    But as I said, I’m always glad to listen to any theory out there. If there is anything that is simpler and makes more sense I am glad to consider it.
    After all, isn’t that what we’re all here for?
    Bless…

  192. I don’t really understand what you are saying James, i kinda think you are starting to agree with the statement that woman could mean any thing at different times … however i’m just going to add a little warning. I also have an engineering background, and i’ve come to the realization that intuition is a useful tool for solving problems, but we should always be carefull not to accept intuitive reasoning as a substitute for logical reasoning. We can be guided by our intuitions but we should only make conclusions based on logic. Nothing is obvious until you can prove it. Its not enough for you to say something like ‘The last one simply asks the reader who has begotten them, obviously referring to their mother’ without telling us why, (and i’m not saying you are right or wrong). If you think that the woman is a church, use the bible to give a direct proof. Don’t expect anyone to agree with your intuitions, no matter how right it feels to you. As for me, the revelations is a mystery, but i’m ok with that, afterall, there are many places in revelation where you will find things like ‘… I will tell you the mystery…’, ‘Here is wisdom. Let him that has understanding …’ (revelations 13:18) and it’s impossible for everyone to have this understanding. The revelations was ment to be a mystery known only to the wise. That’s why so many people still accept the mark of the beast at the end. There is an infinite number of interpretation of the revelations, but only one of them is true and we would never find that one true interpretation if we are not carefull with intuitions and keep an open mind. Thanks for your support alienated (at least that’s what i think you are trying to do)

    The interpretations of some of the prophesies are found in revelations 17:7-18, and in daniel 8:15-26. In trying to understand these interpretations, you must keep in mind that the events that these chapters are speaking of are to occur at a future time from both daniel’s time and john’s time. It could happen in our time, or it could happen at a future time from our time as well. :->~~

    • Actually I am saying that a woman can’t be different things in the same book of prophecy. It must be consistent. In fact it is consistent throughout prophecy. If Marianne’s examples are how she portrays them, then a woman in prophecy is always an actual person, just as in Isaiah. But we know that is not true.
      I gave you some scriptures where God’s church are reckoned to a woman as follows:

      Woman, Pure = True Church Jeremiah 6:2, 2Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:23-27
      For Example:
      Eph 5:23
      For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

      Eph 5:24
      Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.

      Eph 5:25
      Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

      Eph 5:26
      That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

      Eph 5:27
      That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

      Does this sound familiar? Christ will cleanse His church to purify it before it becomes His bride. This is the whole purpose of the Book of Revelation – it proclaims Christs’ return and marriage to the true church.

      Woman, Impure or Corrupt = Apostate Church Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21, Hosea 2:5; 3:1, Revelation 14:4

      For example:

      Hsa 3:1
      Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of [her] friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.

      Hsa 2:2
      Plead with your mother, plead: for she [is] not my wife, neither [am] I her husband: let her therefore put away her whoredoms out of her sight, and her adulteries from between her breasts;

      Hsa 2:3
      Lest I strip her naked, and set her as in the day that she was born, and make her as a wilderness, and set her like a dry land, and slay her with thirst.

      Here God says that the adulterous woman is not His wife and He is not her husband. Christ will not accept a whoring apostate woman as His bride. Those churches (Babylon) will be destroyed.

      Not only do these examples prove that a woman is a church, but they both actually refer to the Book of Revelation! God has never married His church – not yet. That event will be the biggest thing ever to happen in the history of the bible. That is why it has been prophesied about for so long. The Book of Revelation brings it all together – sums it up, brings it to its inevitable conclusion.

      Once you understand its true purpose, the Book of Revelation is easy to figure out. What does God need to do when He returns. Punish the one nation most blessed by Him because some of its people have backslid in their faith? Not without taking out the rest of the planet too, just to be a just and fair god.

      What you see as the wanton destruction of the US is actually the cleansing of His church(es) in preparation for the marriage.
      As an engineer, which do you consider to be more logical?
      Or better yet, as a Christian?
      Bless.

      • hi james

        I have never said that a woman is always a person. I am not sure how you got that impression.

        In the old testament, Israel was always spoken to as if it were a woman. It was either a bride, or a harlot. Israel was a nation, not a church.

        In Hosea, there is a double meaning, because Hosea married a harlot, so he could understand the anguish of a loving God and an unfaithful wife. That is the only case where the prophetic included a natural woman, and was used to represent a nation.

        I also see the book of revelation showing natural and spiritual Israel being represented in Rev 12. It is not only the church here…but Israel as well, since only Israel gave birth to the child. During this time, natural Israel will flee to the wilderness, which is mentioned first, and then this is followed by spiritual, faithful Israel, which flees second, as the devil expands his attack.

        In the beginning of Revelation, the churches are represented by candlesticks, not women. Jezebel is mentioned, but this represents a spirit, in the church, not the church itself.

        The woman on the beast is a city, so now you are getting closer to it being a church, if the city is Rome, and Rome represents the church….

  193. I didn’t mean to say you thought a woman in prophecy is always a real woman, I was only making a point about consistency. Always a church works but always a woman or always the US does not.
    As for rev 12, Israel did not give birth to the man child as Israel did not exist until 1948. The woman represents God’s people, the Jews or more correctly, Judaism – the original church of the Old Testament. In the New Testament, Israel represents Christianity – now the true people of God. Israel is as apostate as the Roman Catholic Church.
    Here is my point – does God marry a woman? Yes.
    Does God marry His people? Yes.
    Does God marry the true church? Yes.
    The church is therefore represented as a woman. Right?
    So how can a woman be a nation (Israel) in rev 12, then the US (or Islam) in rev 14, the a city, then a church at the end unless the word of God is inconsistent. Therein lies the rub. You may be comfortable with such inconsistencies, but I am not. Unless the woman is the same thing throughout the book (the symbol that is) then I tend to reject the interpretation. Otherwise the story gets way too confusing. And in a vain attempt to keep their interpretation believable, many people who simply can’t fill in the missing pieces simply claim the rest is a mystery that we are not supposed to know and leave it at that. They figure that when the time comes, we will all finally figure it out, and meanwhile the whole world will follow the beast.
    This is why it is essential to have these discussions. Perhaps someday something someone has said will help another friend to get thru the tribulation in one piece.
    Unless of course we are all raptured.
    🙂

    • james

      Israel has been in existence since the time of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It gave birth to the Messiah, which was God’s plan and promise.

      There are different women in scripture. They are not all the same symbolism.

      The woman in rev 12 is faithful. The whore of mystery babylon is not.

      • The “Israel” you speak of is what I refer to as “spiritual Israel” not a nation or country. It represents God’s people, wherever they are, even in Babylon or Poland. This is the Israel that gave birth to the Messiah.
        The question is, is this “spiritual Israel” a “church?” It might just be a matter of semantics, but I would argue that God’s people can be called His church. Not a little wooden building with a steeple and cross. So perhaps we can agree on the terminology and that we are referring to the same thing.
        And as you say, the woman in rev 12 is faithful. Therefore it is the true church. At the time of the birth of Jesus, this church was Judaism, but all that changed at the end of Daniel’s 70 week prophecy, with the stoning of Steven and the rejection of Christ by the Jews. This marked the beginning of the new church – Christianity. Judaism was now apostate. Rev 12 is the story of this change-over. It also shows how Satan, after failing to destroy the new church, managed to infiltrate it with paganism, sending the true church (woman) into exile for 1260 years – the length of the Holy Roman Empire. This is not coincidence, but a fact of history. So why do so many people believe the 1260 years is 1260 days and that is has yet to happen? Then to make it make any sense they say that it is the modern country of Israel that will go into hiding? Really? Israel fleeing in fear? Will they take their 200-300 nukes with them?
        I don’t think so. Not logical. Interestingly, during the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70AD, only the Christianized Jews fled into the wilderness (Jordan I believe) because they understood the Olivet prophecy. Many people think that that prophecy was end-time, and try to tie rev 12 into it. But as I said, it just doesn’t make any sense. And it doesn’t fit with the rest of Revelation since it’s written for end-time Christians, not Jews or Muslims or Americans etc.

        So there
        🙂

        • It would seem more logical to say jesus gave birth to the church, not the other way around.

          Also, since represented by 12 stars, this indicated natural Israel, who happened to also be spiritual Israel at the time.

          the 1260 days has not happened yet, in my view.

          the book of Daniel indicates Jacob’s time of trouble to be 3 1/2 years, which is 1260 days.

          • There are many ways to look at the symbol of the woman giving birth in rev 12. It would be correct to consider the woman to be Mary, a Jew. She was part of God’s church so the two fit fine. I don’t know what you mean by “natural Israel” but if you mean the land itself (the natural environment) as the mother of Jesus, then I must disagree. Land can not give birth nor can it escape to anywhere. Only people can. I don’t believe the Book of Revelation is about land. Not Babylon, not Rome and not Israel. They are only symbols of religious entities. Of course, Jesus will return to Jerusalem – that much is not just symbolic, But in Daniel and Revelation countries are shown as beasts (or kings) with attributes that indicate who they are.
            As for the 12 stars, they do not represent the nation of Israel but the origins of God’s people. They can be seen as both the 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 apostles of Jesus. They represent the beginning of Judaism and the beginning of Christianity. They may also represent the 12 constellations of the zodiac where the “woman = Virgo the virgin” is behind the sun at the time of Christ‘s birth.
            As for the time of Jacob’s trouble, it is a reference from Jeremiah which refers to the captivity of the Jews by Babylon and is only a metaphor for hard times. There is no time frame given and from history we know it was not 3-1/2 years. Daniel says that the 4th beast will be given power for 1260 years, not days, as he uses the day-for-a-year formula in his book, and not just for the 70 week prophecy as many people believe. Again, I believe in consistency, so unless you have scripture that says when to use days rather than years and vice-versa, then I’ll stick consistency. Try to make all the prophecy work with just days and you will be in big trouble (but not Jacob’s trouble).
            While I used to believe all of this I have since realized this interpretation was put together by taking many verses out of context to prove a point. You have to just assume that old prophecies can be applied to end-time events without the author ever specifying it to be so. I tend to exercise caution in those cases – and there are a lot of them.
            The only time frame confirmed for end-time events is the 3-1/2 years that the two witnesses will preach. All others are just assumptions.
            Seems you arrived at a valid time frame thru invalid assumptions.
            Go figure…
            🙂

            • Natural Israel is unsaved Israel. It is faithful to God but does not know it Messiah yet. Israel was both natural and spiritual Israel in the OT, since jesus had not arrived yet.

              Once jesus came, there was a split between natural and spiritual Israel, with Natural Israel remaining unsaved, not recognizing its Messiah, and Spiritual Israel, who did recognize him.

              Jeremiah predicted that the Jews would be in babylon for 70 years and then would have the chance to return home. read chapter 25.

              Jer 25:11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, [and] an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

              Jews were already in Babylon at the time of Daniel.

              Jeremiah only mentioned Jacob’s trouble but gave no details as to time.

              Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

              Daniel speaks more about the time of the beast:

              Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

              Daniel 12 also speaks of the time of jacob’s trouble in the last days (for the time of the end):

              Dan 12: 1, 6-7

              And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

              And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?

              And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

              thanks…

  194. Thanks for explaining what you were earlier implying James. You say that a woman can’t be different things in the same book of prophecy and that there must be consistency. You also go the extra mile by saying that there should be a form of consistence in the usage of the word ‘woman’ in the prophesies of the bible. Naturally, my next question would be ‘How do you know this? Do you have any scriptures to back your thoughts up with?’ But alas! You actually DO have scriptures for me. Scriptures like Eph 5:23, Eph 5:24, Eph 5:25, Eph 5:26, Eph 5:27 …

    Sheesh! You even gave me passages where the woman is used to represent the apostate church. Passages like Hsa 3:1, Hsa 2:2, Hsa 2:3,

    Well, here’s what i know. With regards to Eph 5:23 and 25, I don’t know if you realise, but these scriptures are not on prophesies but on teachings of holiness and love.

    Eph 5:23 ‘Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it’ makes a comparison between two kinds of love; the love of a husband for his wife, and the love of Christ for the church. It really doesn’t mainly attempt to compare the woman with the church.

    Similarly, Eph 5:23 ‘For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body’, compares the relationship between a man and his wife to the relationship between Christ and the church. The same thing applies to verse 24.

    As for verse 26 and 27, I really don’t see what they have to do with anything.

    Even the passages you gave to show the woman as the apostate church has a lot of problems.

    Hsa 3:1 ‘Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of [her] friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine.’ This simply tells Hosea how he is supposed to love this adultrous woman – according to the love of the LORD toward the children of Israel. It’s all basic english!!

    Once again i dont see what Hosea 2:2-3 has to do with anything.

    All i’m asking is that you make necessary corrections to your passages and present the ones that accurately send your message across. If i ask for a passage that says that the adultrous woman is a city, give me a Revelations 17:18 If i ask for a passage that directly compares a city to a woman, give me Revelations 18:2-4. It takes patience to find passages that direct. Plus you have to be sure you are not reading the bible for the wrong reason, but for the simple reason of understanding the word of God. (and what’s with the smiley face?) 🙂

  195. The reference verses I gave you were not supposed to be prophetic, but a clue to the definition of a woman when used as a symbol in prophecy. The bible always interprets itself. Sometimes the clues are hidden deep within its pages and only experts way more familiar with it than you or me have to be called upon to find these definitions. While I use the prophecy code, I was not the one to discover it. It has been around for maybe a thousand years or more but until the internet, it was not easy to find in print. Google it and read from the experts how it all came about. Then you can use it or reject it, that’s up to you. Just don’t expect to find any verses in the bible that are going to say something like, “I, the Lord, sayeth to you that henceforth in my prophecy a woman shall be as a church.” I was hoping for that, but the verses were not written as a thesaurus. They are couched in secrecy so that only those with wisdom will understand. I’m not the one with the wisdom, but I’m willing to use the wisdom of others in order to better understand the word of God.
    As for the consistency issue, somewhere in scripture it says that God is not the author of confusion. I take that as a clue to interpreting prophecy. It does not make sense to me that God would use the symbol of a woman for lots of different things. Couldn’t He think of something original for different subjects? Why make everything so confusing and leave the interpretation open to so many possibilities?
    If you think logically, then you must look for simplicity and consistency.
    You also have to look at the Big Picture. The interpretation must satisfactorily explain every verse, not just a couple or every other verse. Plus the “story” must be continuous and make sense. It should not be just a bunch of unrelated scenes like a random selection of YouTube videos. And most of all, it must reflect the character of God. Most people totally ignore this aspect. They forget the God of the Old Testament and how He dealt with His ancient peoples. Almost every verse in the Book of Revelation can be traced back to the Old Testament. Just as Jeremiah warns ancient Israel that they will be punished if they were to continue to defy God’s laws, the Book of Revelation is warning modern Christians of the same thing.
    It is not about Israelis, Americans, Muslims or any other nation. It is about New Testament israel – Christianity. If you stray from that idea, your interpretation is flawed, no matter how much certain verses sound a lot like what you think it does.
    Before I began to study prophecy with a passion and ordered or downloaded over 300 books/articles on the subject, I read the Book of Revelation myself assuming I could figure it all out on my own. For a long time I thought the woman was the US, then I thought it was Islam and then I gave up because the rest of the book failed to support my assumptions.
    Then I began to read books and articles and watch lectures from all different denominations and preachers/teachers. Of course even the experts disagreed, but I read on, for years, then decades. I would lay in bed for 6 or 8 hours at a time just pondering the scriptures, trying to get it to all make sense, like a giant jigsaw puzzle in my head. Just as I used to do when designing a computer program or a circuit board. It helped me come to my current conclusions. Perhaps the technique will for you. And maybe you will go with a different interpretation. So be it. I am just trying to pass on the benefits of my studies to others. After all I have read by experts in the field, I feel I need to pass on what I have learned to others who are looking for clues. Just as I had to reject much of what I read and go with what I felt was correct, you will have to do the same. I’m just trying to get people to think a little differently about prophecy. If I’m right, it could be extremely important to many of them. There is so much to explain all I can do is give you clues, then you have to research the subject for yourself and decide. I wish everyone well in that endeavor.

    As for the smileys, I use them all the time. Its just my way of saying, “It was nice talking to you, have a great day.”

    So here you go, have an extra great day:
    🙂 🙂

  196. Marianne,
    I guess I just don’t get your whole “Jacob’s trouble” scenario. Jeremiah used the term as a metaphor, and that trouble came true in the 70 year captivity. It isn’t related to Jacob’s actual trouble (wrestling with an angel etc.)
    Daniel 12 talks about another, end-time, trouble, but it is not related to Jacob or Jeremiah. You are tagging it with a title, and I guess that’s O.K. But the time frame of Dan 7-25 is not related to the trouble of Dan 12. It is the time of the little horn of the 4th beast. The one that wipes out 3 of the 10 countries of the dissolving Roman empire. This little horn is the Vatican – a small kingdom with great power and speaking blasphemies. It even thought to change laws and times – eliminating the 2nd commandment and changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday – a crime against God. This euro-vatican beast lasted 1260 years (The Holy Roman Empire) or a time, times and dividing of times. As usual, you fail to apply Daniel’s year for a day formula and come up with 1260 days or 3-1/2 years. Then you apply that time frame to Dan 12 which occurs at the end-time, long after the 4th beast received it’s deadly wound.
    As I said before, you have taken unrelated verses and brought them together to make a point. This is done all the time by many people, and I originally fell for it too. I now oppose this technique and only make connections that are obvious. Sure, I may miss a few small links this way, but I avoid a lot of corruption that way.
    If you apply this principle to the left behind theory, it totally unravels. The rapture, the Antichrist, the 7-year treaty, the deadly wound, the One-World-Order, One-World-religion, the bar-code/RFID chip and others – ALL FALSE! They are figments of imagination, from verses pulled out of context to create an interesting story. And Christians all over the world are falling for it. TV evangelists teach it every Sunday. It is the most commonly believed interpretation. That fact alone should send up a big red flag, for as we know, the whole (Christian) world will follow the beast. How can so many people be fooled? It beats me, but believe me, I’m glad no-one agrees with me. If I were in the majority I would be in big trouble.
    But if I persevere, maybe someone will join me before it’s too late.
    That’s my goal and I’m sticking to it.
    🙂

  197. Pls Mr James, can you try to keep your comments short? (I don’t like to spend too much time reading it)

    Anyways, you always have a very funny way of confusing me. What do you mean by ‘the clues are hidden deep within its pages’? The bible doesn’t hide information, especially not clues. You said it yourself. God is not the author of confusion. That’s why he would not hide any clue from his children.

    And then you speak of experts way more familiar with the bible than us? That counts for nothing. The bible would be understood by whosoever God gives the understanding to, no matter who reads the bible the longest. This reminds me of that instant recorded in the bible of the time Joseph interpreated the Pharao’s dream. All the seasoned magicians and astrologers who have had years of experience with dreams (and most certainly would have interpreated a number of dreams themselves … at least to justify their consultation) could not interpreat the dream, and at the end of the day, it took little Joseph to interpreat the dream. Would you pick the ideas of some so called experts over those of the angels of the most high, the messangers of God themselves? The angels already explained the events of the end time in rev 17 and in daniel 8 and both of them were speaking of the destruction of nations. Don’t think for one second that God can not destroy a nation simply because there are good people in that nation. On this note, i would like to take your mind back to the story of Sodom and Gomorah. The destruction of a nation does not mean that God has forgotten his people. He saved lot and his family by sending his angels to warn them of the destruction of their land, which is the same thing he is doing through rev 18:4 ‘and i heard another voice from heaven saying, come out of her my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins and that ye recieve not of her plagues’.

    “I, the Lord, sayeth to you that henceforth in my prophecy a woman shall be as a church.” that’s quite funny, but that is how you should read the bible; keep it simple so that you are not easily misled. Remember that the devil is a deciever and he (or she … or it … whatever) always finds new ways to decieve people. Indeed God is not the author of confusion. That is why you should read the bible the way it is. If you do that and you still get confused, be sure it is not God that’s confusing you. You need to be more patient if you want to understand the bible.

  198. If what you say is true and all you have to do is to read the bible and it will instantly become clear to you, then why are there so, so many different interpretations of it? Not everyone can be right. Even if you memorize the entire bible, which many preachers have done, you won’t necessarily come up with the same conclusions as others who have memorized it. So you must examine every theory out there and then decide which is right. And if too many verses don’t fit, then you must keep searching.
    The bible most definitely shrouds itself in mystery and symbolism. Jesus spoke in parables that even had to be explained to the very elect. John had to write Revelation in a way that would not offend his Roman guards who read everything he wrote to make sure he wasn’t encouraging an uprising.
    Unfortunately many people just read Revelation and whatever comes to mind they take as the truth and everything they don’t understand they just ignore. I did it too, but as I began to study deeper I discovered that my first impressions were superficial and incorrect. I am still open to correction as God instructs us to have the mind of a child and not an old man fixed in his ways. I believed much of what you do for 20 years – I just took it for granted I knew what I was reading, but I was wrong. So I’m just encouraging you to look at other interpretations and try to get the big picture.
    Of course, if you are right, then there should be no need for schools of theology or bible study classes. Or this web site for that matter. Discussion and teaching should be unnecessary.
    Now, if you believe you are equal to Joseph in interpreting God’s word, perhaps you will do us all a favor and write an article for this site explaining the Book of Revelation, I look forward to reading it because as I said, I read every interpretation I can get my hands on.
    An overview will do – just the seals, the beasts, the mark, the women and the false prophet. I have done this in another article on this site, so now maybe it’s your turn.
    As for Sodom and Gomorrah, have you forgotten that God promised Abraham that if he could find only 10 righteous people in the city He would spare them? I believe there are far more than ten in the U.S., perhaps more than any other country on earth.
    I’m only guessing, but I think maybe you don’t live in America. This means (if you’re right) that you are safe from the retribution of God, so you simply have to sit back and watch CNN as the US is destroyed.
    As I said before, its not a country but all of Christianity.
    Ask not for whom the bell tolls – it tolls for thee.
    🙂
    God bless us all.

  199. If everyone reads the bible the way i say, then yes, there would be so many different ideas. However, these different ideas would not be too far from the one central idea the bible conveys. But we should not forget the deciever Satan. His role in what we end up understanding is quite significant. He has tried to draw people away from the word by putting preconcieved ideas in their minds … can i just take a break from all this back and fourth? My idea seems to be causing a lot of problems. Maybe God would not destroy the US, but He will destroy that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. Sorry all americans on this site … i really mean no harm. I have relatives that stay in America, and i hope to travel there (eventually) to further my education, maybe at MIT or any fancy institution. Sorry Mr James … and just one last thing – I’m not joseph. I never said i was joseph …

    • hi good guy

      You are entitled to your opinions too. 🙂

      to me some things fit about america, but others don’t. babylon is described as trading in certain items….america does not have all these items but the middle east does ( Ivory, frankincense, purple dye, animals)

  200. Well Marianne,
    At least I jewel him down to just Washington DC!
    I should be safe out here in California and so should you. But any readers who live in DC should quit their jobs, sell their homes and get the hell out of there immediately! Run for your lives!
    You know, it seems odd that just because a person has his home within a certain city or even country, that he/she deserves to die. When did God get so political? I thought He judged people individually by their sins. Isn’t there already going to be a judgement day for the wicked? The sharp sickle reaping the earth. But reaping countries? Doesn’t sound like God to me.

    Now if he would only let us in on the mark of the beast!
    🙂

  201. Break over.

    Nobody said people deserve to die because they have their homes in certain countries. If you can be a little practical now, you would see that America has had its share of issues with some powerful people, and it is possible that these parties would come together to destroy america. The thing is that at some point in time, we’ve both thought that the adultrous woman was the US. The only difference between you and I is that you went to seek answers to biblical mysteries outside the bible, while i’m still searching the bible for answers. I came to this site to see if there was anyone who could explain the revelations the way it was written and bring the message out as clearly as possible … you know what? can you explain the parable of the labourers in matthew 20:1-15 to me . This was one of the things i was looking for answers for. Do you think that explaining this parable requires the interpretation of some ‘experts?’ I’m waiting to hear from you.

  202. gg
    Hi is an explanation of the parable:
    That some of those who were first called may yet be last, our Lord confirms by the following parable: of which the primary scope is, to show, That many of the Jews would be rejected, and many of the Gentiles accepted; the secondary, That of the Gentiles, many who were first converted would be last and lowest in the kingdom of glory; and many of those who were last converted would be first, and highest therein. The kingdom of heaven is like – That is, the manner of God’s proceeding in his kingdom resembles that of a householder. In the morning – At six, called by the Roman and Jews, the first hour. From thence reckoning on to the evening, they called nine, the third hour; twelve, the sixth; three in the afternoon, the ninth; and five, the eleventh. To hire labourers into his vineyard – All who profess to be Christians are in this sense labourers, and are supposed during their life to be working in God’s vineyard.

    I believe this is correct, but I suppose that a clever person could twist the words to mean just about anything. So you can believe this interpretation or not.
    By the way, these words were written by John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement and a Christian theologian.
    So maybe that disqualifies this explanation in your mind, but who knows, it just might be right.
    Bless.

  203. I really don’t get what you are claiming the parable illustrates. For example, I know that the parable of the 10 virgins illustrates the unexpected nature of the coming of our Lord (matt 25:1-13), the parable of the sower illustrates the different outcomes when people hear the word of God (matt 13:3-9), but to you, what do you think the parable of the labourers illustrates exactly? And don’t forget to explain yourself clearly and in full (you could make it look a little interesting, you know, maybe like a teaching. Don’t worry. I’m actually getting somewhere with all this) 😉

  204. To explain it properly would require that I include other verses from throughout the new testament where Jesus and the apostles discuss how in the kingdom of God there will a pecking order so to speak. Everyone will be given a grade, according to their works while here on earth. Just because you may have come to the lord later than someone else does not mean you will have a lower standing that them. It all depend on what is in your heart or should I say in your right hand (works) and you forehead (thoughts). If you know and keep God’s laws you will be rewarded. Someone who has been “saved” for a longer time but who disobeys His commandments (and don’t forget the fourth) will have a lesser standing in the kingdom of God.
    Simply said, being first does not guarantee you a good seat.
    I hope maybe I explained it better than the founder of the Methodist church, if that’s possible… maybe because I did it later. 🙂

  205. James,

    Well, here’s my understanding of the parable. I’d like to know what you think about it … POSITIVE criticism is very much welcomed. (I was actually confused about what the parable ment until my pastor explained it in church during one of his preachings)

    The parable tells the tale of a householder who was looking for people to work for him on his vineyard (matt 20:1). He initially negotiated a pay of one penny a day with the first set of workers, and then set off to find some other labourers to work for him on his vineyard (matt 20:2-3). At various points in time, he found several workers and also negotiated with them about working on his vineyard (matt 20:3-7). The unusual thing about this negotiations however, was that the householder told them ‘… go ye also into the vineyard, and WHATSOEVER IS RIGHT, that shall ye receive.’ and they agreed (matt 20:4, 7). At the end of the day, every labourer was paid a penny, and the first set of labourers was unhappy about that, which to me is quite understandable (matt 20:11-12). But the householder however, rebukes them (matt 20:13-15)

    Why?

    Well I feel the master was happier with those who worked for ‘whatsoever is right’. After all, they worked for the householder without much interest in the reward they would receive from the householder because they knew they would get something from the householder eventually, no matter how small, unlike the first set of labourers who were all about their pay. To me, the parable illustrates the difference between believers that work for God as servants who work for reward only, and those who work for God as true sons of God, knowing their position in the house of God, and that there is no need to fight for rewards for their works because the world is theirs. It also tells us the consequence of falling into any one of these categories. ‘For the first shall be the last and the last shall be the first. For many are called but few are chosen.’ It is because some Christians are more interested in themselves than in the kingdom, that is why God choses only a few and makes them first in the kingdom, even if they were chosen last (the end).

    • We are really saying the same thing here. There is no doubt that there will be rewards in the kingdom. We will be judged on our works, but we do not do works in order to insure a higher place in the kingdom, we do it simply to please God. But the bottom line is the same: Sin against the Lord and you will receive less of a reward in the end.
      As with many parables there may be more than one thing to take away from it. So if you find more than one, don’t assume that only one explanation is correct.

      Just a quick question. Has your pastor ever covered the Book of Revelation and if so, does he agree with your interpretation? As I’ve said, sometimes it helps to ask experts who have studied this stuff their whole lives.
      I had to learn astronomy from people who had already studied the topic and not by starting from scratch with my own observations. I take the same approach when studying scripture. It gives me great insights and a head start since I started late in life and don’t know if I’ll be around long enough to become an expert all by myself.
      Sure, not all so called experts have the same interpretations which is why I read all of them and put them to the test – like writing a computer program. If the lines of code (verses) don’t make a runnable program (come to a logical conclusion) then I try to look elsewhere. This might not work for everybody, but it sure did for me.
      May God bless you in your search for the truth, however you might get there.

  206. (just need to have the last say here)

  207. Pergamum, also known as the place where satan dwells. this is smack in the middle of turkey. Guys look up Dabbar-al-ard.

    • Pergamum, really!
      Lets get this info to the US Air Force so we can drop a bunker buster on his ass.
      🙂

      • I just read nahum 3 and i think you need to read it too. It speaks of the first horseman and the harlot.

  208. This is a REALLY long page. Someone has probably already mentioned it, but it was not listed at the top of the page.

    Exactly why is it that most everyone says it is a city on seven hills,
    when the same passage says she is over ALL the peoples of the earth,
    which are are distributed across SEVEN continents (hills rising above the water)?

    1) Europe
    2) Asia
    3) Africa
    4) N America
    5) S America
    6) Australia
    7) Antartica

    Does not the INTERNET where she trades all her commodities sit on top (orbiting high above) of all these 7 continents hills, just like she sits high above the peoples?

    It seems so plainly clear, so why does the vast majority of everyone try to shrink down the whole earth human population into one tiny city on the whole globe? I don’t get it…

    • it seems like Babylon is a global entity.

    • So are you saying that the internet is Babylon? That would make everyone on this site a sinner in the eyes of God. And since the internet is merely a world-wide communications system, anyone who watches TV or uses a telephone is also guilty. Heck, just talking might get you in trouble.
      Nope, the internet is not guilty of anything. If nothing else, it can be a tool for God to spread His word thru the world in these perilous end times.
      No, the woman is a church – an apostate church. One that is spread throughout the world but is headquartered in the city of seven hills. It is a church system that is polluted with pagan practices forced upon it by the Roman empire with roots that can be traced clear back to ancient Babylon.
      That is what God must destroy before Christ returns to marry His bride, the true church. Not the internet.
      I for one will continue to use the internet to spread God’s word. If you are convinced it is evil then I suggest you unplug your modem right now and pray to God for forgiveness.
      Otherwise, I look forward to your response.
      🙂

      • 1) “So you can’t see 7 continents as being the 7 hills because why exactly?”

        2) I’m going to leave out much info, just to focus on the big picture. The prophet Daniel was a government official living in Babylon during the writing of the beginning of his book, yet he remained innocent of the nation’s sin. The Rev18 physical destruction of a worldwide commerce infrastructure, IS in the hearts of the Rev17:16 rulers of the earth, to create a satanic Dictatorship. The BG leaders ‘hate spiders’ and spiders make webs, and the ‘net’ is one big web. When the final dreadful beast appears, previous ‘Old World Orders’ (which includes the internet) have been destroyed to make room for the ‘New World Order’. Remember, the Rev18 destruction does NOT kill the beast the Babylon woman sits on! After his near fatal head wound (a small part of which is the internet), he survives and morphs into a Strange Beast, considerably different in structure and power than all previous beast world orders. The net might possibly come back online in a small military state form under the antichrist, but never like what it is now, because Ezekiel 39:9,10 suggests a post tribulation primitive society which is very wood dependent.

        Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

        When Babylon is described as ‘GLORY of Kingdoms’ and ‘BEAUTY of Excellency’, no other feature of modern times comes remotely close to the World Communications and Collective Knowledge Technology Power Grid in euphoric description. The Internet is GLORIOUS and the Internet is BEAUTIFUL. Kids at school have a humorously popular phrase: “Wikipedia IS God.” They do not mean to seriously imply they worship it, but the Web is the fulfillment of the Garden of Eden’s ‘Tree of Knowledge’ in its final most mature, beautiful, and glorious form.

        Now it is God that created Knowledge and Knowledge indeed IS beautiful (personally, I love knowledge!), but this kind of beauty is lacks one key feature concerning humanity. Beautiful Knowledge cannot get the [Human Heart to behave itself], neither toward God, nor toward its fellow humans, nor toward its earthly habitat. Beauty has a terribly ugly flaw. Look at our world as a testimony. I ask you a simple question; “How is the Internet (in all its Glorious Beauty) going to solve all the social-economic-corruption diseases which plague humanity?”

    • That has always been upon my heart since I was young and that seven hills were the seven continents, also but there was on piece in scripture that Jesus said, “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.” in both Matthew 6 and Luke 16. That leads me to understand that the women the city is the World economy.. Now if you look at the statue in Daniel the head was made of Gold (strong economy) as you work your ways down the statue and after each time a conquering country prevailed their economy suffered.. Now when you get to the feet you see it mixed with clay (debt mixed with asset and/or economy based on non renewable resources) Basically an economy is one that looks stable but will crumble under the weight of it’s deception.. The ten kingdoms are the ten countries who control the stock markets. This is a brief summary of what I believe Not sure if this makes sense to you it hard for me to explain what is upon my heart. This is something that has been on my heart and in my mind for over 15 years..

  209. Sounds like you buy into the “Left Behind” books scenario – a New World Order, Antichrist dictator who controls the world’s currencies, etc. You are also probably looking for a 7-year peace treaty with Israel and a chip to control buying and selling. All of this is bunk. Not gonna happen. What is going to happen will be so different from what everyone expects that they will not realize they are following the beast because they won’t know what the beast actually is.
    As for the internet, it is not a real thing. It is simply a bunch of computers connected by telephone lines. It is simply software programs that let you talk to other machines, not much different than calling a library and asking the librarian to give you some information. There is no actual internet thingy that can be turned off. Just computers and servers, phone lines and modems. And a lot of web sites, like this one. But its no more real than the image you see on the screen when you go to the movies. It looks like something real, but it is just light and shadows on a silver screen.
    The internet is not a World Order nor a beast, nor a kingdom. It is a ghost of technology. You make it into something it is not. To most people it is made of magic and it seems amazing and mystical.
    Open a history book and follow the kingdoms that controlled God’s church. There are four in the book of Daniel and four in Revelation. They are all connected and sequential. They have all existed except the eighth and final kingdom (beast).
    You are looking for strange beasts that can morph into more stranger beasts. You wait for a beast that came and went over 200 years ago. And you don’t recognize the two beasts that are here right now yielding great political and religious power. They will soon combine to form the 8th beast.
    The prophecy has been fulfilled, yet few realize it. They are as the Jews in the time of Christ – who to this day can’t see that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies that predicted His first coming. And modern Christians are making the same mistakes in regards to His second coming, and this very post is a good example.
    The woman is a false church, but it is NOT Islam. It is God’s church. His largest, richest and most opulent church. It is the church of Rome – the city of seven hills. It is blasphemous and apostate and is filled with pagan (Babylonian) practices. It must be cleansed and Babylon destroyed before it can become the bride of Christ. This is the overall message of the Book of Revelation. If you miss this, then you won’t have a clue as to the rest of the book.
    The Antichrist, the 7-year peace plan, the New World Order, the rapture and the chip in the right hand or forehead are all science fiction. They will not happen.
    Oh, wait, I think I’m being raptured…

    Never mind. False alarm. (See, I told you). 🙂

    • 1) “So you can’t see 7 continents as being the 7 hills because why exactly?”

      2) Never read ‘Left Behind’ and I don’t believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

      3) See the diagrams on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_service_provider
      For an United Nations chief leader who has knowledge of where all the primary computer nodes are, a simple EMP to each one of those nodes would effectively melt the core hardware portion of the internet. The web software and general data stored on those nodes would dissolve with it. Next take out the satallites in orbit to remove reflective communications. Those who has the knowledge to build the internet, certainly have the knowledge to take it down, and a whole lot quicker. Its durable in one sense, but very fragile in another. Simple.

      4) As for the Rev13:17 mark of the Beast you say is all science fiction, since there is no part of scripture I can point to that you will believe, I will share with you an experience 25 years ago. During the Christmas holiday’s I was at a get together. There was a man there I had known since childhood who would be classified as a “small” international banker (his office was in Russia). Keep in mind this was years before cell phones and years before the Internet, period. I asked him point blank; “Since skin embedded financial marks were written about in Bible prophecy 2000 years ago, if this came to pass, would you believe the Bible.” He calmly said, “No. Anyone could have figured out thats what would happen.” I was absolutely shocked! He had just confirmed what was clearly on the horizon. Fast forward 15 years and Verichip corporation is making subdermal GPS chips for tracking livestock. Surely you are not ignorant of Digital Angel are you? Has your veternarian not yet offered for your pet to be chipped?

  210. Just because there happens to be 7 continents doesn’t mean that is what Revelation is referring to. When John wrote it, there were only 3 known continents, but the city of Rome was already known as the city of seven hills. Don’t second-guess him.
    Just because they can put chips in pets doesn’t make them the mark of the beast. The infrastructure necessary to chip the world and to connect them all 24/7 to an international banking system is not even possible yet. And if it could be done, it would depend completely on the internet. If as you say, the internet will be taken down by the Antichrist, then he would lose the ability to implement the chip system. I’m afraid the whole left-behind scenario (even without the pre-trib rapture) is too far-out to ever actually happen. You will never get the whole planet to agree to be ruled by a single person. You will never get the whole world to have a chip implanted in them. There will never be a one-world religion and no-one will decide to “worship the beast” by giving up their current religion.
    Your Christmas story brings up an interesting point. In fact, it is the main point of the Book of Revelation and the bible in general. God doesn’t care if you use a chip or a credit card to buy stuff. Look back to Jeremiah. His church was breaking His laws and had to be punished, thus came the Babylonian captivity. Harsh, but necessary. Now it is the Christian’s turn. They have become apostate, breaking commandment left and right. Celebrating pagan holidays as if they were God’s. Including Christmas. And Easter. And Valentines day. And Halloween. All pagan. All anti-christ.
    If you do not rest on Saturday and dedicate the day to the Lord, you are breaking God’s commandment, and if you worship on Sunday, you have the mark of the beast. Almost the entire Christian world has it right now, but nobody realizes it.
    I know it sounds silly, but the Book of Revelation is not a sci-fi novel even though many have interpreted it as such. It is a simple message to Christians: Your savior is returning to marry His bride, the true church. If your church is apostate, you need to get out of it before God destroys it. And if you keep ignoring His commandments, you will be punished with the seven last plagues. That’s it in a nutshell. Plus the seals and trumpets and stuff. But the basic story is quite Old Testamenty. Wrath of God, judgement of the wicked, destruction of evil – you know what I mean.
    If you think that sounds too biblical for you, then feel free to go with the whole sci-fi scenario. But I encourage you to rethink the whole concept from a different perspective and ask yourself not WHAT God will do, but WHY He will do it and perhaps you will begin to see the Book of Revelation in a new light.
    Bless…

  211. government has passed laws to regulate the internet. some protest.

    http://www.techradar.com/news/internet/24-hour-wikipedia-blackout-will-protest-sopa-pipa-1055164?src=rss

  212. Concerning the Mother of Harlots the Bible says,” Deliver every man his soul. Be not cut off in her iniquity (that is do not commit her sin are you will go to hell). Here’s a hit of the sin of the Mother of Harlots, The Bible says, O thou dwellest upon many waters, abundant in treasures, thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. What the mother of Harlots is doing, concerning, exessively and culpably desirous of the possessions of another? Have you ever read the Book of Solomon how he describe God wisdom as, good ointments, rows of jewels, gold, silver, wood, frankincense, scarlet, cinnamon, wine, wheat, ivory. marble and ect. Thus says Solomon, His mouth (The Word of God) is most sweet: yea he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem. Remember the Word of God is His treasure. Have you ever thought about what the Mother of Harlots was selling which made God so angry. Whatever she was selling is a sin to sell such merchandise in the eyes of the Lord. Think about it, when He sent out his disciples, He said, Freely you receive, freely give. He also teaches us whosoever love me will obey me. Thus should today prophets merchandise the Word of God for profit? than why is written in the Book of Micah 3:8-12, I will declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin. The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for pay, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us. Therefore shalll Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest.

  213. In the Book 1 Corinthians 9:18, Paul question our understanding by saying, What is my reward? (that is to say if I teach the word of God for pay). According to the Book of Micah, it is a sin for a priest to teach the Word of God for pay, charge, profit. Thus says Paul, Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. Woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel. Surely Paul preach what the book of Micah preach concerning the priest who teach for pay.
    This is a short letter to all my brothers and sisters who say they or ordained by God to preach the The Word of God, Thus if you love God, you will obey God, for He teaches us, FREELY YOU RECEIVE THE WORD OF GOD, FREELY YOU GIVE. Thus what if a man don’t preach the Word of God freely but for a charge, pay, profit, that is to say disobey God, yea what will be his or her reward from God.

    • hi carolyn

      I would agree with that, which is why no money is accepted for helping people here. The word is presented here to learn, discuss, debate, and clarify. That is enough blessing for me.

  214. Hi Carolyn,
    I’m just not sure who you believe the Mother of Harlots is exactly. An apostate church? A nation?
    Feel free to elaborate.
    🙂

  215. Isaiah 1:21, How the faithful city become a harlot! it was full of judgment; she was full of justice! Righteousness once lodged in her; But now murderers. In her (the bloody city) was found the blood (iniquities) of prophets (the kings, yea priests), and saints, and all that were slain upon the earth. The kings, such merchants, are the great men of the earth, by their sorceries were all nations deceived.

    • This passage perfectly illustrates my point that the harlot woman is the current Christian church which became apostate when it combined with the Roman pagan religions around 300 AD. Pagan holidays, ceremonies and Sunday worship are still with us today and almost the entire Christian world takes part in them. This paganism is the “Babylon” that is destroyed before Christ returns.
      We shouldn’t be looking to other religions in order to find Babylon.
      Babylon is us.

      • I agree there is paganism in the Church due to the Universal Church wanting to convert Pagans. Like Easter, Lent, and Christmas.

        These Popes are very educated. Why are they not trying to change Easter back to Resurrection day the last day of Passover? Easter does not always fall on the last day of Passover. So, I can only wonder about their motives. What do you think?

  216. Sorry about theerrors in my above post. Thus today my computer cursor is not working like it should.

  217. There is no need for me to apologize, for my computer cursor. I just read a few posts above mine, and in everybody post the words are running together as like within my today post . I believe I’m having a bad computer day.

  218. Harlots in the Bible is also called beasts. Read Ezekiel 34:7-31, The house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord God. And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God. As I live saith the Lord GOD, surely because my flock became a prey, and my flock became meat to Every Beast of the field. Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

    What meat is this (such as the FLOCK) in the beasts, shepherds mouth?
    Yeah let us rightfully divide the scriptures. Read Jeremiah 51:13, O thou that dwellest upon many waters abundant in treasures (waxed rich), thine end is come, and the measure of thy covetousness. Now read 2 Peter 2:3 – 22, (But these are false prophets, false teachers), and through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. Thus says God, But the shepherds fed themselves (yeah trough covetousness, they with feigned words make merchandise of you), and fed not my flock (freely). What feigned words the shepherds use to make merchandise of you. I did my best adding it all up, Thus I heard many shepherds say, If you sow your best seed, God will bless you in return, 30, 60, even 100 fold. I also heard many shepherds say, If you give a tenth of your income, God will not curse you, but bless you in every arena of your life. I also heard many shepherds say, order my sermons you will surely be bless, and I heard many shepherds say, order my book or ect and the Lord will surely bless you.
    God will judge us by His Word! It is written in Micah 3:8-11, It is a sin for a priests (shepherds) to teach for pay. And this very day I observe a lot of shepherds who want to get paid, yeah, believe it, they are making merchandise of the people. Titus speaks the truth, They profess that they know GOD, but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
    According to Nahum 3, Woe to the bloody city! it is all full of lies and robbery; the shepherds prey departheth not. Thus says God, I will cut off thy prey from the earth, and the voice of thy messengers shall no more be heard. Revelation 18:11 thru is stating, And the merchants of the earth (great men, beasts, harlots) shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandsie any more. For in one hour so great riches is come to nought.
    Is God wrathful with the Harlot for making merchandise of his flock? Remember He said, the day cometh, for His flock will no longer be meat in the beasts, shepherds mouth.

  219. seems some people forget one there are church of YEHSUAH AND THERE IS THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST WHO FOLLOW THE CORPORATE WHORE CHURCH OF BABYLON AND WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT IS THE 501C3 WHORE CHURCH AND WHO OWNS THE 501C3 STATUS IS THE VATICAN WHO IS THE WHORE OF BABYLON AND ITS CHURCHS ARE THE DAUGHTERS OF THE WHORE
    FOR ALL THE WARS ARE RUN BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HERE IS ONE CONFIRMATION THAT IT IS THE WHORE read the book by AVRO MANHATTAN the book is called the vatcans holocaust also it tells the reason why jfk was murdered and who was behind it
    and there are other books that are by him that point to it the jesuit priest are the assassins and is the ones controlling nobama as also he has F-AIDS and is dying as we talk but that is another subject but the whore of babylon is not jerusalem but there is one fact that the pope wants to put his throne there in jerusalem using his asset KING JUAN CARLOS WHO IS THE KING OF JERUSALEM

    • hi dracula

      you make some good points.

      how do you know obama has AIDS?

      why do you think Juan Carolos is king of Jerusalem?

      • I can’t address the AIDS allegation, but in the days of the Holy Roman Empire, the King of Spain was given the title “King of Jerusalem” It was probably a crusades thing. Juan Carlos inherited the title.
        Means crap…

  220. couldn’t the woman who sits on the beast be America ,it is the most powerful nation .Americans do abominations .There are many proofs that America is Babylon or the woman.Just check in Google by searching “is America Babylon .

    • Jim,
      A lot of churches teach that the US is the 2nd beast of Revelation, and they base it primarily on rev18 where it describes how rich and powerful the beast is.
      But there are too many other verses that contradict this.
      For example:
      Rev 13:11
      And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
      Rev 13:12
      And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
      This beast is a religious kingdom. It looks like the lamb (Jesus) but is speaks like Satan. It is apostate, and as we read later it contains the whore woman (church) which rides it. The woman (church) sit on 7 hills – the city of Rome – the city in which the Vatican resides.

      None of this fits America, or Islam, for Islam has never tried to look like the son of God, even though they too are blasphemous. And to make the first verse fit, the first beast must be The British Empire since the two are clearly related. But I’ve never seen anyone try to prove that.

      Then there are the tell-tale colors of the beast – scarlet and purple. Not red white and blue. the Vatican is filled with priests and cardinals wearing scarlet and purple. The golden cup is used in the mass. It has no relationship to the US.
      So you see what I mean – you need to toss out a lot of verses to say the US is the 2nd beast. Most people are fine with doing that, as long as it helps prove their point, but that is taking away from the words in the book and we are warned against doing that.
      Bless.

  221. No, it’s Istanbul: http://www.scribd.com/endtimeleaks/d/95899790-Vatileaks-The-New-Holy-Roman-Empire

    • Asdf

      I think Istanbul is a strong possibility

      4 Horses – 4 Horns – 4 Beasts – of Zechariah and Revelation.

    • I read this article carefully and the author has a lot right, but a lot wrong.
      The beasts of Daniel are clearly defined by Daniel as Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece followed by a kingdom to be named later – Rome.
      The idea that the US was “plucked” from Great Britain is a huge misinterpretation. Daniel clearly states that there were ten kings and three were destroyed (plucked up by the roots – that’s how you kill weeds and the like – a metaphor for war).
      For some reason he tries to tie the bible to the Koran as If the Koran has any real truth to it. While he is right about the Catholic church and Germany and a restored Holy Roman Empire, there are no real ties to Turkey or Islam, it is his attempt to place the Antichrist inside Islam, which is a common mistake.
      First of all, there is no Antichrist, only the False Prophet, who he never even mentioned. If this person, whoever you call him, is to fool even the very elect, he can’t possibly be a Muslim. No Christian will follow him. They will however, follow the pope, and in the restored Holy Roman Empire, the EU under Germany will give the Vatican and its image, the pope, similar power like it had during the first Holy Roman Empire.
      The pope is your Man of Sin, the False Prophet or the Antichrist.
      I think that Islam will have its own pope, the Caliph, and his office will be in Istanbul, but he will not be the Antichrist, just a real-life enemy of Christianity, plain and clear. He will be Gog of Magog and will be destroyed by God when he attempts to wipe Israel off the map, and the EU (king of the north) will attack him and his allies in the war of Daniel. They will never be allies however.
      I have tested this theory before and it uses less than 20% of scripture. The rest has to be ignored or radically twisted to get people to believe it. Try it yourself – read all of Revelation 13-19 and see If all the verses fit well. They won’t. Close, sometimes, but no cigar.
      Bless, y’all.

      • James

        Revelation says there are 2 beasts, not one. The Pope may be the false prophet, beast 2, but not beast 1.

        I do not follow 100% what the link says, but Turkey is part of the ancient Roman empire, and so the city of 7 hills can also be in Istanbul.

        • The pope is not a beast – a beast is always a kingdom of some sort, not a person. Therefore the Antichrist (which is nowhere in Revelation) can’t be a beast.
          Beast 1 is the Holy Roman Empire – it followed historically when the 4th beast-kingdom of Daniel (Rome) fell apart.
          After the Holy Roman Empire ended after 1260 years there came another beast with all the authority of the first one. Well, exactly WHO was in charge of the Holy Roman Empire? The Vatican of course. It became an official world empire in 1929 with branches in almost every country. It sits on 7 hills in the city that ruled the kings of the earth (at the time of John).
          The pope is the “image” of the Vatican who speaks for it. His title adds up to 666. Six different titles in five languages, actually. He is the False Prophet. There is no Antichrist. The pope is the man of sin who breaks the laws of God and blasphemes Him by claiming to be God in the flesh and infallible.
          His church is decked in gold en cups, pearls and garments of purple and scarlet.
          Come on – just join the dots here. Everything is clearly laid out in the history books.
          The Catholic church has created a “futurist” interpretation (Fr. Ribera) that says nothing in Revelation has happened yet, so don’t blame the Catholic church until we see what unfolds later on.
          Nobody bought it 400 years ago, but all of a sudden it has become popular, even in the protestant churches. Satan is hard at work deceiving them as the second coming approaches. He is doing a fine job too. The truth is right in front of people yet they fail to see it. I am amazed but not surprised. We all know the whole world (figuratively) will follow the beast, so apparently Satan’s little ruse is going to continue to work right till the end.
          I’m here to prevent that, but as you can see, I’m not having much luck.
          Oh well, at least I’m trying.
          Bless.

          • I understand beast 1 is a kingdom…but beast 2 can be a person, or a kingdom.

            I agree the catholic church has a lot to do with end time events.

            • Beasts are always kingdoms. There are 8 of them in Daniel / Revelation. The image of the beast is a man, not the beast.
              I don’t believe the word of God would be inconsistent on this matter. You can claim it is in order to make a point, as many do, but I believe that is tampering with scripture.
              Apparently, that’s just me.
              Bless.

  222. “Great Babylon” the mother of all prostitutes and perverts of the world. And i saw the woman who was drunk with the blood of Gods people and the blood of those who were killed because they had been loyal to Jesus”.

    “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth”

    these verses can be found in revelation 17 The Famous Prostitute

    “The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth”

    I could think of nothing other than Rome because the Pope has got all the nations under his spell… ahhhh but not enough proof for you???

    Here is a reference:

  223. ok.. the patience of the saints is that we have the testimony of Yahushua and that we keep the commandments of Yahuah. I tried to keep in line with the long discussions on this topic which took a complete wrong turn until I get to the statue of liberty part with the reply being a jesus statue would be better…. NOT READ THE 2nd Commandment! No graven images! Sorry had to reply to that because we have to be hot or cold…. Faith (testimony) and works (commandments) together because alone they are dead.. Now I will try to get back to the discussion where I left off….

  224. I was very excited to find this site, as I have been studying Rev. 17 for many months. I haven’t read all the posts, but read many. One thing is for sure, all the theories put forth here cannot be right! Until the son of perdition is revealed, we cannot know the true interpretation. I have done a lot of research about the Illuminati and their organizations who are working tirelessly behind the scenes to establish a One World Government. I am pretty certain that the Scarlet Beast is a future One World Order/Global Government.
    Has anyone considered that the 7th head of the beast could be Hitler? He “continued a short time”—was dictator only 11 years. Because of his atrocities, the modern nation of Israel was established and the Jews were brought back to their homeland, as prophesied in Jer. 16.
    Perhaps the 7 heads of the beast are not literal hills, but represent empires that controlled the Jews. God always used pagan empires to punish Israel and scatter His children (Assyria, Babylon, Rome). He used Persia to restore Jerusalem so the prophecies about Jesus could be fulfilled. Whoever the 5 fallen empires were, doesn’t matter. They have come and gone. John said the 6th head “is”. That has to be pagan Rome, which existed in John’s day. Then pagan Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, and the Jews were scattered again. Perhaps God used Hitler and his regime to bring them back home for the end times! Just a thought.

    • God didn’t use hitler, satan did. Satan used hitler to kill gods choosen people. And guess what hitler was a protestant and he liked martin luther. Your Church is ashame for Christianity.

    • hi shelia

      we do explore different possibilities here as to how to interpret prophecy. I guess we will see soon, since we all agree that we are in the times when all will be revealed.

    • Please show us the scripture that says there will be a New World Order / One-World Government.
      That is the plot line of the movie “Left Behind” not bible prophesy.
      Thanks.

  225. Asalamu Alaikum peoples !!

    This Message is from our older respected spiritualist who has all kind of spirituall powers in his hand gained
    from his father/forefather.The world today is suffering from strange Confusion but the right one man is this one
    who is leading us to right path and who wants our difficults paths to be easier to us,and want to save us from Misfortunes
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  226. umm

    • otis

      that is also a reasonable interpretation for the 7 hills.

      Although I have to say, I have been there, stood on the mt of olives, and could only see one other mountain. I think the creation of 7 hills for some places is more due to imagination than geography.

  227. James Giordano ( and all who believe Rome to be the fourth kingdom):
    You wrote:

    “I hope you will open your mind in this matter and study the scripture without a predetermined agenda.
    Try to find a mistake in my logic or scripture that completely contradicts it. There is a lot of symbolism in prophecy so it’s not an exact science, so try not to make too many assumptions especially ones that are vague and take the prophecy on a strange detour.
    Simple and obvious should trump clever and convoluted. God doesn’t want to be tricky when it comes to prophesy. It may be hard to understand before it happens but it should be obvious after it occurs. It is a shame that so much has been accurately predicted and yet so few have realized it.”

    I believe you have made mistakes in your logic AND scripture. I believe there is a MORE simple and obvious answer than your complicated theory.

    First, if you notice, the division in Daniel’s Image occurs during the third kingdom of Greece, not the fourth. ( belly AND thighs of bronze ). The fourth kingdom BEGINS already divided. Rome didn’t begin divided. It began as one kingdom. It was divided until centuries after its beginning. Therefore, logic tells us that Rome CANNOT be the fourth kingdom.
    Later in Daniel we are told more about this kingdom, when the horn on the shaggy goat is broken off and is replaced by four horns, TWO of which become prominent.
    Daniel’s further explanations tell us that these two kingdoms are the Seleucid and the Ptolemy Empires.

    Second, the ten toes of iron and clay are contemporary; they exist together. We are also told that the iron, the bronze, the clay, gold and silver are smashed by the Rock at the SAME time, TOGETHER. Therefore, these kingdoms ALL exist when the Messiah comes to set up His Eternal Kingdom.

    Now, let’s look at Revelation. The final Beast and his kingdom have the appearance of a leopard – it LOOKS like Greece. It also has a mouth of a lion ( Babylon ) and the feet of a bear ( Medo-Persia ). So this final kingdom is a composite of THREE previous kingdoms, not four. This tells us that the Image in Daniel IS the IMAGE of the Beast Kingdom. More than that, it is the BEAST himself, as a man. Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, is told that HE is the HEAD. Who is the King of Babylon? The Beast.
    Daniel 7 tells us that the lion was made to stand on his feet as a man, and a heart or mind of a man was given to it. In Revelation the Beast is a man.
    The bear has three ribs between its teeth and is told to devour much flesh. In Revelation the Beast subdues three of the ten horn and persecutes and kills many. The leopard is given power and authority. The Beast of Revelation is given great power and authority.

    In Daniel 3 we are told that Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, sets up an image of gold, and forces ALL to bow down and worship it. Those who don’t are burned in the fiery furnace. This Image is 60 cubits high and 6 cubits wide. In Revelation, the Beast, the King of Babylon, sets up an Image of himself ( gold = Babylon ) and forces ALL great and small, slave and free, to worship it. Those who don’t are burned in the fiery furnace of the Tribulation. The Beast has a number, 666. It is the number of man.
    In Daniel 4, Nebuchadnezzar is driven made because of pride, and made to live as a beast for 7 times. In Revelation the Beast is mad with pride for 7 times (years).

    So, what are the legs of iron and the ten toes of iron and clay? The legs of iron are the kingdoms of the Beast and the False Prophet. The ten toes are the Ten Horns that give their power to the Beast. They are ALL the final end time Kingdom. The Image of Daniel and the Beast of Revelation are one and the same.

    Why is Rome ignored? Because Rome exists primarily between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9, when prophetic time is suspended. It exists during the Church Age, when Israel is in exile.

  228. Since Antiochus Epiphanes is a foreshadow of the Beast, the beast most likely will arise from an area in the Middle East.
    The UN Article 27 proposes dividing the world into ten economic regions. At the rate that Islam is growing, most of these regions will soon have a Muslim majority, which is why the Ten Horn give their power to the Islamic Beast.
    One by one the nations of the EU will fall to Islam, just like the Middle East has in the past. Some say there will be a future religious war in the future and that Islam will be conquered. I doubt it.
    John says that the Beast that was, now is not, will ascend from the bottomless pits and the world will be ASTONISHED. I don’t think the world will be all that astonished if the Holy Roman Empire returns. But if BABYLON (which is being rebuilt in Iraq) returns, that would be astonishing! Zechariah talks about a Woman which represent iniquity being carried BACK to Babylon, and being set in place. This Woman is obviously mystery, Babylon. Zechariah also talks about the four horses of the apocalypse, and later the Two Witnesses are foreshadowed by Joshua and Zerubabbel, the Assyrian being brought low, the Spirit being poured out on the House of David, and mourning in Jerusalem as in in the Valley of Megiddo.

    • I don’t see how North and South America plus China, India and Australia are rapidly becoming Muslim regions.
      Babylon will never be inhabited again as it was cursed by God. Plus Babylon will never become a kingdom. At best it will become an archaeological amusement park, but it will never regain kingdom status.
      And believe me, if the pope began to perform miracles and the EU gave him total religious control over the union, many people will marvel at it. You don’t think it will ever happen, so it would surely marvel you! If not, that means you are probably expecting it happen anyway, so no big whoop, but then you are agreeing with me that the prophecy will be so fulfilled.
      In your case you need four different beasts/kings to come into existence in the near future. but time is running out. I only need one more thing to happen and you even admit, it would not surprise you if it did happen.
      I’ll take simple and logical over complicated and unlikely, every time.
      But that’s just me.

    • Toddler
      REgarding Babylon. The building material will never be reused. So it is not Iraq. It is a country who will burn with a nuclear bomb so no one will ever go their again because of the radiation. Babylon = USA

      Jesus and Zerubbabel is the same person.

  229. woman = vatican

    beast = islam

    https://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/2013/02/04/israel-seems-to-have-sold-jerusalem-to-the-vatican/

    ?

    • Woman = church = Roman Catholic Church
      Beast = kingdom = Vatican (Islam is a religion, not a kingdom. The Vatican has nation status in the U.N.)
      The Vatican does not ride (and control, like a rider) all of Islam. Not even part.
      But the Catholic church rides on its vehicle, the Vatican. They are forever linked as one.
      The Vatican will eventually cause the abomination of desolation probably by building a church, complete with statues of Mary etc, on the temple mount. And institute Sunday worship there, thus breaking two commandments. Islam has had a mosque on the temple mount for 1500 years plus they are not God’s people so God is not concerned with their religion any more than Hindus or Buddhists. The first thing He must do when He returns is to clean up His own church. Then His people can go out into the world and teach the gospel to the uninformed.
      A Muslim can not be the man of sin (Antichrist) because no Muslim could ever claim to be God. But the pope already claims to be the substitute for the son of God, or Jesus in the flesh (until He returns for real anyway) so the prophecy already fits. It will never fit a true Muslim. If one ever claimed to be Allah, he would be beheaded in two seconds. You gots to use some common sense in this matter, ya know?
      Otherwise we are no better than scientologists. 🙂

      • but the bible also says the beast hates the woman and destroys her.

        Islam hates the church and wants to destroy her.

        • Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

          • Yes, the nations turn on the beast in the end.
            I believe the pope will declare forced Sunday worship once the pope gains complete religious control over the restored Holy Roman Empire. This will be the mark of the beast and after suffering the 7 last plagues, Catholics in Europe will begin to listen to the two witnesses who will be preaching the gospel and the Ten Commandments. Including the true Sabbath. Once they realize the pope and his great false church has deceived them, they will come to their senses and revolt. Wouldn’t you?
            This scenario makes perfect sense, if my interpretation is correct. A very simple and logical story line. No One-World Government, no Antichrist dictator, no Islamic empire conquering the rest of the world and no chipping 8 or 9 billion people for banking purposes. All of that is a grandiose scenario and so very unlikely to actually ever happen, as popular as it is in the prophecy community. But then we also know that the great majority of the Christian world will get it wrong, and unwittingly follow the beast. I can’t see 3 billion Christians following Islam, can you? But if the pope (who already has 1.3 billion on his team already) begins to perform genuine miracles, most of the rest of the world’s Christians will come on board.
            I don’t believe the non Judao-Christian people will have much to do with the prophecy of Revelation.
            Gog/Magog, yes, but that’s a different prophecy.

            • I can’t see 3 billion Christians following Islam either. That’s why Revelation says a “great multitude which no man can count” will be saved out of the Tribulation. Millions and millions will refuse to worship the Beast by taking the Mark (which has nothing to do with Sabbath). The problem (or one of the problems) with your theory is that it is focuses on Europe and Christianity. The focus of all prophecy is Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple. The visions given to Daniel were for HIS people and HIS nation. Your theory completely disregrards the apple of God’s eye. You can’t build a theory based on TWO books. Read ALL of the prophetic books in the Old Testament and you will find that the subjects of all prophecies regard the end times, the Day of the Lord, refer to nations that are today, ALL Islamic. And who is in the EXACT center of all this horde of Islamic nations? Israel.
              It’s not about Seventh Day Adventists. It’s not about the Sabbath. It’s about Israel.

              • Toddler
                I can see that many Christians can follow islam in fututre. We don´t have the book Rev in our Bible but sometimes we read it and when we do we read that Jesus power will go over to the beast. And he will shake and destroy the Christian nations. People will follow Islam in hope that this evil man will stopp plague them. Then Jesus will comeback from heaven and just exhale on him and he will die. This is Gods plan to get rid of thoose who have weak faith. You should never leave your fight even if you don´t have food on the table.

            • You are slightly confused. The nations do not turn on the Beast in the end. The Beast and the nations turn on the woman.

              I don’t think any Catholic would EVER turn on a Pope. Protestants have been preaching the gospel to catholics since the Reformation and they haven’t listened yet. What would convince them in the future, especially when they see their Pope can cause fire to come down from the sky? In case you don’t know, most Catholics are brainwashed.

              As for an Islamic kingdom conquering the world. What if the Islamic Empire and the Ten Kings were all concentrated in the Middle East? I’ll change my mind and accept that ( After all, i’m still learning. I don’t have it all figured out like you do. )

              So, here’s what we have:
              1) Ten Islamic Nation in the Middle east; revival of Ottoman Empire. (ALL of the beasts in Daniel are Middle East nations).
              2) An Islamic Antichrist Beast (Syrian/Roman/Jewish) who rises to power with seven of these nations. Three have to be conquered. Possibly Sunni vs Shiite issues. The Mahdi.
              3) A False Prophet, who according to Islamic tradition is Jesus, who admits he is not the Messiah and leads all people to worship the Antichrist.
              4) A Woman, the Catholic Church, who somehow sits on the Beast. Controls it?
              5) The Beast and the Ten Horns hate the Woman and turn on her and burn her with fire.
              6) Islam, then persecutes God’s people for 1260 days, until destroyed by Jesus.

              Very simple and logical and doesn’t contradict the Bible. Yours, on the other hand, is neither simple (Go back to the top and see how long it took for you to explain it), logical (many inconsistencies, even though you can’t see them), and it agrees neither with the Bible of history, unless both are severely twisted.

            • I agree with Todd here.

              If the catholics to not realize the pope has deceived them by now, they won’t in the future.

              I can see the pope playing more of a role as the false prophet, rather than the beast itself.

              the NWO is already here, and I do not think it is going to disappear because of the pope in rome. in fact, they co-exist.

              we do not need 3 billion christians to follow Islam. Islam already has 2 billion muslims, and they are doing enough damage.

              most modern christians do not care about the pope, and would think any miracle he came up with would be a fake event. in the age of technology, people assume tricks, holograms, computer programs, …..video games, photo – shop etc.

              also, most catholics, protestants too, have fallen away from sunday worship, or any worship at all.

              no one will care about sunday worship.

              • Marianne,
                RE: the catholic church. I believe that there will be a great opportunity to preach to these people shortly. I Think that many will wake up to this deception, and will be looking for answers, shortly before the beast turns on them. At least that is what I am praying for. Some on the other hand will be the ones persecuting the saints, at the behest of the pope. Just like the Inquisition.

          • I heard enough now.
            The famous whore who had whored with the powerful men on earth is Maria magdalena. She has lived as lux whore and is satanist. the reason why they want to kill here is because she has plagued Jesus with evil spirits this time. And it is not the beast it is the red animal, the vatican who gives order to the ten horns. Eu has a military union with 10 nations. they will find here and destroy here clothes and fire her up. so the woman who rides the beast is just woman who is satanist. it has nothing to do with church or Islam. But we will not follow the book of rev so forgett about this. I can give you more ex. when maria magdalena heard that sweden will be plagued she and the swedish church has persecuted Jesus. She sended satan in Jesus and satan was in jesus for almost 2 years this time. last time it was 40 days. Jesus has been under plagues for more than 5 years. he is totaly destroyed. And Marianne you are right that satan has seen your blog because Jesus who is in the vatican now looked a your blog when satan was in him. When he was protected against evil spirits satan was on his head for a while. I know a lot about him this time. the Nt is written to him i. this life. Not the hole life. Only the christian part.

      • Jim
        A muslim can be antichrist sins antichrist will deny the father and the son. No Christian will deny the father and the son. When Jesus holds the doom. A muslim will probably be their leader or Jesus “dad” will go out and say he is God or something. I am 100 % sure that the man om sin who will reveal himself as God is a muslim.Maybe usamba bin laden will come back to life and he will reveal himself as god. The man with the deadly wound on his head.

      • You say,” the Catholic Church rides its vehicle, the Vatican. They are forever linked as one. ” So, the Catholic Church is the Woman and she rides the Beast, the Vatican? Hmmm. The BIBLE SAYS the BEAST and Ten Horns hate the WOMEN and destroy her. So what you are saying is that the VATICAN destroys the CHURCH. Doesn’t that mean the Church destroys ITSELF?
        ……..YOU gots to use some common sense in this matter. Ya know?

        As for Islam worshipping the Beast… The Muslim “adoration” towards Mohammed already amounts to worship, just like the Catholic “adoration” of Mary does. I believe during the Tribulation there will be an overwhelming amount of demonic activity and deception. And I believe it will be VISIBLE. The Bible says that EVEN the elect would be deceived if it weren’t for the shortening of those days. God will send a GREAT DELUSION.
        Remember, the world can’t buy or sell unless they worship the Beast, and those who don’t will be beheaded. You have to understand something about Islam. Islam is Satanic. They are deceived. The Muslim people blindly follow there religious leaders. But the religious leaders of Islam care nothing about Allah or the common people. It is about power and control. Same thing for Catholicism. (An example is the Palestinians. Islamic leaders care nothing about the Palestinian “refugees.” They are using them as as pawns in their war against Israel. If the leaders truly cared about the people, they would give them homes in their own countries instead of forcing them to live in refugee camps in near povery. )
        Multitudes of Muslims WILL refuse the Mark during the Tribulation and will be saved. But millions and millions will willingly follow their leaders and worship the Beast by taking the Mark (After all, who wants to starve to death or be beheaded?)
        But I don’t think the concept of worship, has to do with actually bowing down and praying to someone. It’s more about loyalty.
        How many Muslims wouldn’t give their loyalty to a Beast who persecutes and murders Jews and Christians?

  230. I agree. The Bible says the Beast and the Ten Horns will hate the Woman. Who hates Christianity (true AND nominal)? Islam.

  231. O.K., let me address everyone with issues on the Islamic Antichrist.
    First, the Book of Revelation is all about the churches, both in John’s time and the end times. Israel’s participation ended after the 70 weeks were over in 34AD. True there are many prophecies in the Old Testament that involve modern day Israel but the Book of Revelation is for New Testament Christians. If you try to make it all about Islam and Israel you are already on the wrong path.
    If you think the first beast is going to be an Islamic empire, then what is the second beast? The one with all the authority of the first beast with two horns like a lamb? This beast appears to be Christlike, but is controlled by Satan. And this beast must destroy three kingdoms of the first beast. But if the first beast is the Antichrist, hoe does that ever fit?And the first beast only lasts for 1260 years before receiving a deadly wound, then being replaced by the second beast. This fits the Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican perfectly. The Vatican ran the Holy Roman Empire and it will run the soon coming restored Holy Roman Empire. It has an image (pope) who is the substitute for Jesus Christ, but we know that is blasphemy. And the pope’s title (in latin) adds up to 666.
    How do you expect something similar to happen in the near future? And is the beast a kingdom or a person? And why would a Christian False Prophet tell his followers to worship Islam? And don’t say the devil made him do it. This is prophecy, not a Flip Wilson routine. 🙂
    And yes, the nations (people) turn on the woman at the very end. Once the pope is revealed as the False Prophet Christians all over Europe who were forced into the mark of the beast by the Vatican (Sunday worship) and who are suffering the seven last plagues, will surely want to destroy the source of their pain. They may burn down every cathedral in Europe in fact, all owned by the Vatican, the second beast.
    As for Jesus being the False Prophet, that is silly. The False Prophet is destroyed by Jesus in the Lake of Fire, and if you actually believe in the Islamic prophecy of the Mahdi, then you should be blogging on a different site.
    As for the popes’ miracles, God said they would fool even the very elect. So a Muslim performing them would never be believed by the most devout Christians. And no Muslim could convince anyone he is God / Jesus. First of all Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is God, so they are out. And they would never think he is Allah, that would make them infidels and they would all be killed. Not gonna happen. Illogical too. Regardless of the falling away of the Catholic church, which was prophesied by the way, there are 1.3 billion Catholics and growing, way more than all the Protestants combined. But 11 protestant churches have already pledged to return to the Vatican, having resolved their differences with the mother church. Interestingly, Martin Luther split from the church saying many of the things I’m saying now, then the church came up with the theory of futurism to deflect the prophecy from themselves. But it took until modern times for the Protestants to buy into it, and now they believe it with a vengeance – the “Left Behind” scenario. Prophesy fulfilled.
    So you guys have got to get your beasts in order. You act like the beasts are kingdoms then turn around and turn the beast into a person – the Antichrist, and claim he will be dictator of the world – a “New World Order” which you claim is already in place. Really? All the world’s countries are joined together in peace right now? So where is the Antichrist and who exactly will put him in charge? Certainly not the US and the European Union among many others. So where does one man get the power to defeat all the armies of the civilized world? And you claim this theory is simple and uncomplicated! Oh wait, the devil lets him do it. Mankind loses free will and becomes the puppets of Satan. If so then God’s wrath would be solely against Satan, not the mind-controlled humans under his magical powers. Oh wait, Satan doesn’t have such powers, only God does. Satan will influence the False Prophet and his kingdom, but he can’t force billions of people to do his bidding. If he could, he would have done it thousands of years ago. So don’t try to pull a Flip Wilson on me here.
    As for Adam, sorry dude, but you’re just plain nuts. You don’t even believe Jesus is divine but just a lowly human. And that krapp about Mary Magdalene is pure fantasy. But then you‘re only here to bust our chops, having escaped from a YouTube video with nowhere else to go.
    So for a simple recap:
    1.The EU and Vatican combine forces against the Muslim threat.
    2.The final pope declares mandatory Sunday worship – something already proposed by John Paul II in 2002 while in a conference in Brazil.
    3.The pope )False Prophet) increases his following by performing miracles.
    4.The plagues happen and most Christians search for the reason they are afflicted.
    5.The words of the two witnesses are finally believed and they come to their senses and turn on the church and all its apostasy and destroy it.
    Compare that to all the unbelievable international shenanigans that must happen, not to mention putting 8 billion chips into the right hands of every person on earth. Not to mention the banking nightmare that would go along with all that.
    But the prophesy says that most of the Christian world will follow the Vatican beast and wonder after the False Prophet, its image. Seems like 99% of people on this site, and the rest of the world for that matter) are already on board. Even those who believe they are among the very elect.
    Way to go prophecy! Right on!

    • James/Jim

      First of all I want to say that I beleive that Jesus is divine. When I said he was not divine long time ago I thought divine was something else. Sorry for not knowing my english.

      You say Vatican will rule the roman empire. First of all Vatican have no power of countries like Sweden, Finland, norway, denmark, England, wales, scottland, north Ireland, holland, germany, tceck etc. So Vatican will not rule the restored roman empire = Europe.

      You said so many times that the popes title is 666 in latin. Do you realy beleive that a future Pope will say if you don´t take my title in latin on your forehead or on your righthand you can not sell or buy. This doesn´t make sense. The Vatican don´t have this power and will never have. The Vatican are selling coins and stamps to finance the Vatican. The american central bank have this power. They are already in power over me now with visa system and now we have started to sell and buy via mobile phone but sometimes i use it with my left hand and i dont put it on my forehead.
      How can you say sunday worshipping about sell and buy. This doesn´t make sence.

      The beast and the false prophet is about Islam. You say they will fire up the cathedrals. The Ortodox and Catholic Christians will never accept this. We are to many people to let this happen. We will defend our Cathedrals and by the way the protestand world have left the faith. It is only USA who have some kind of faith. The rest of the protestant world don´t care anymore.

      Rev say they will ripp her clothes of. You can´t ripp clothes of a Church. It is not as you think. The woman is Maria Magdalena and she is living on earth today.

      The Antichrist is a muslim. All muslims deny the father and the son. So all of them is Antichrist.When Jesus starts his next mission he will say that Islam has nothing to do with God etc so they will elect one person who will be their madi and when Jesus is finished with his first mission his power will go over to this muslim and many people will start to obey him. Even Christians because he will plague the Christian people just as Jesus will plague the muslims. He will shake the nations etc.

      I am not inspired by youtube. I use youtube to listen do music thats all. I will say this again. Jesus lived with us in Sweden and is in the Vatican now. And mary Mag. is also living in Sweden. The woman that the red animal will rip here clothes off and fire up is here. But we will not follow the book of Rev.

      The famous whore in Rev who have whored with the famous and powerful poeple on earth is Mary Mag. I know that she was a model for an agency who sold models to famous people. They call them self groupies but I called it luxury prostitution. I have seen this with my own eyes that this agecy hired models to famous people from Us. I will not give names but I have worked at famous hotel and I saw it then.

      Regarding chipping 8 milliards of people. When Jesus holds the doom it will rain fire and brimstones from heaven and we will have vey poor times. Us is almost bankruptcy now. So when the dollar and the Euro is not worth anything more then their is time to implement a new currency system with chips.

      My suggestion to you is to buy a Syrianic/Aramaic Bible because we don´t have the book of Rev in it and we are the first Christians and Jesus in the Vatican told us that we will not follow the book Rev.

      • You clearly don’t understand metaphors and biblical imagery. So are you expecting the beasts of Revelation to be animals? So Mary Mag will be riding an actual red dragon? You can’t try to disprove an interpretation by claiming it is not literal enough, especially in Revelation, which is primarily symbolic.
        If you use a woman to represent a church, you can’t say that people will tear her doors off and burn her statues, can you.
        You gots to use some common sense, dude.

        • No I don´t think it is animals. I think it is persons and non Christians or non Jews. No man who calls himself Christian will fullfill beast prophecy. So It is someone who doesn´t beleive in the Bible probably a muslim. They are crazy.

          I don´t use a woman to rep a Church. And regarding riding the red dragon means she is satanist. She works with satan. satan is the red dragon.

        • 🙂

          I love Adam.

    • james,
      a few points.

      it is 1260 days, 42 months, not years. both Islam and the vatican have been around for more than 1260 years.

      jacob’s trouble as confirmed by daniel is a time, times and half a time or 3 1/2 years, or 42 months.

      the pope could be the second beast, but not the first, because the first has 10 heads. the second beast does not destroy any kingdoms of the first beast….it does not say that…. the 10 heads, kings only have authority for one hour at the very end

      if the second beast is the pope, then he is still of lucifer, and will tell people to worship the first beast Islam. the pope has already kissed the quran and declared muslims and christians worship the same god.

      this world is easily deceived…including most christians…..even sometimes the very elect….but this is why the elect have to pray…and be alert…and know the scriptures……..one way or the other, there will be false miracles, and either a muslim or a false christian can be selected by satan to do this.

      the first beast IS a kingdom, according to daniel, and any kingdom has a king , and in this case is the antichrist

      the second beast is a PERSON…who advocates the second beast.

      • Marianne
        I know that the pope has kissed the quran and I am not proud of it but I think he did it so the muslim palestinians should be nicer against the Christian palestinians. And the Vatican whants to make a part of Jerusalem Christian and to achieve this you have to make sacrifises.

        • Adam
          Is that not the very definition of harlotry? Sacrificing something sacred in exchange for wealth on this earth. Is this not what Israel did, instead of relying on God?

          Oh, Adam, set your mind upon the things of God, and not the treasures of this world. Every other (false) religion in the world denies that Jesus is the Son of God. If your church gives up this, the greatest gift ever given, Then surely what is said in revelation 17:16-17 will apply to her…”The ten Horns and the beast will hate the prostitute, they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose…”

          You yourself know this is wrong (not proud of it). Then why do you still go after what is false?

          • Dru
            No Church will ever give up that Jesus is son of God. The first sacrament is the Dope and we say in THE FATHER and THE
            SON …….we will never change this. Specially not the 7 sacraments.

            The prostitute is a woman and a Church. No one can make a Church naked only men and woman can be naked and a prost. is a woman. I know that it is Maria M.
            Like I said I don´t like that the Pope kissed the Wuran but we don´t know all the reasons. Many Catholics in middle east are persecuted by the muslims. I am surronded by Christian from Syria, Libanon, Turkey, Iran who have fleed to sweden because of their faith. What i am saying is that the Pope wants the muslims to be nicer against his own people.
            We can´t rely everything on God this is wrong. I know that God takes care of us when we come to heven. He is not behind much of what we do here. Otherwise he would have stopped the Nazis (protestants) 🙂 He sended all the nazis to hell when they died instead.

            Solution: Is that I will never kiss the Quran and the Pope shure had his reasons.

        • I think the word should be compromises, not sacrifices. Or maybe both. (The only thing the Catholic Church has ever sacrificed or compromised is the Truth.) The Pope kissed the Quran because he believes it to be just another path to God.

          “In its different forms, prayer takes place on different levels and at different depths: the MUSLIM prays, invoking his Allah with great pride…the BUDDHIST prays, immersed and almost losing himself…the CHRISTIAN prays…In this way we pray ALL THE DIFFERENT PATHS COMBINE AND FORM ONE SINGLE PATH.” (Pope John Paul II, ‘The Way of Christ, ‘ 1994)

          Jesus said, “I AM THE WAY…”

  232. Dru
    I want to and one thing. Jesus will hold the doom soon and fire up almost the entire muslim word. The Pope knows this and he doesn´t want to have something to do with this. He is under presure now.

    • Adam,
      Salvation is by faith alone Through grace alone. Repentence, and belief. Martin Luther got that right.
      As we walk with Christ, we are sanctified by the Spirit, Baptised in the Spirit, We Through the Spirit pray without ceasing, The Law is written on our hearts by the Spirit, We overcome the flesh and things of this world, and this is fasting in the Spirit. I cannot take any credit for the work of the Spirit in me, and the only way for this work to be done is to submit my will to the Will of the father. When we are weak, then he is strong.

      This is what a relationship with Jesus is like. I would rather have a right relationship with him, than with a church, denomination, Pope or pastor. The true church, is the assembly of those who have this right relationship with him. ALL the sacraments are “In remembrence of Him”. The More we Look upon the cross, the more we remember his Love. “He that eateth and drinketh unworthily” in the abscence of this relationship, “eateth and drinketh damnation unto himself.”

      Ask Yourself this question: Do you know Jesus, Personally? and not the guy who claims to be him that is living in the vatican, But the One who is Lord of all.

      So if you think praying 7 times a day is good enough, Or going to church often will save you, then you are sadly mistaken.

      God bless

      • Dru
        All I have to say is that the Pope Leo X told martin luther that don’t open your Church because you will not take part of the Holy spirit and in the Roman letter or bok I think it is 8:9 or 9:8. Im writing from my cell phone right now so I haven’t looked it up. It says thoose who have not The holy spirit in them are not Christians. And other Popes has said this too that to be a Christian you have to be an Catholic or Ortodox. The Popes know more then us. maybe they are wrong baybe they are right. I heard God will contact Jesus who is in the Vatican and tell him whats right and wrong etc. We all have to wait and see if the Popes was right or not but I beleive that the Pope is stand in for Jesus. I have my faith and you have yours. let us not judge each other and wait until God judge us. we are not enemies we still call as Christians both of us. So time will tell.
        It is not enough with what i have written earlier we have to even take care of the poor ones and visit people in prison too and give them friendship. I can admit that I haven’t bin on a prison and visited someone but I don’t know anyone who sits in jail. Even if I live in a criminal part of the city. no one is perfect but I beleive that people who fullfilles more then others do regarding new testament will be reborn earlier then others. So Now I must find someone to visit in prison.
        koivu and selänne has a very good goalkeeper from sweden now regarding nothing good comes out of sweden. 🙂

        • I made an exception for Hockey players. (Lidstrom)

          Do You deny that protestents (Non catholics) can have the Holy Spirit? None of what I said is contradicted by the Word of God.

          Large portions of what you believe are the dictates of the Pope. I will take the Word of God over a man any day.

        • Adam, I think it was Baron Acton who said, “Power corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.” William Pitt the Elder also said, “Ultimate power is apt to corrupt the minds of those who posses it.”
          The problem with the Catholic and Orthodox Churches is that their leader hold absolute power over millions and millions of people. What applied to the Pharisees and Sadducees of old applies to the Church leaders of today. Jesus said:

          1) The greatest among you must be a servant of all.
          2) The Pharisees (religious leaders) are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside, but inside you are full of dead men’s bone and everything unclean. (They follow external rules, but ignore mercy and justice.)
          3) The Pharisees (religious leaders) tie up heavy, cumbersome loads (hundreds of rules and regulations that aren’t even required by God) and put them on other peoples shoulders, but are not willing to lift a finger to mover them (unless you pay them money – I think they are called indulgences in the churches. And they use the fear of hell and purgatory to control their followers and extort money from them.)
          4) The Pharisees (religious leaders) love the place of honor …and the most important seats in the synagogues (churches) and love to be greeted with respect and to be called Rabbi (Teacher/Father/Pope etc.).

          The Holy Spirit is given to the humble and the meek, not the high and lofty. Your church leaders claim to speak the words of God, but they don’t. Like the False Prophet in Revelation, they LOOK like a Lamb (Jesus, the Lamb of God), but they speak like a dragon (Satan).

          For this very reason, God urges you to, “Come out of her,” so that you will not partake in her judgement.

          Don’t listen to your church leaders. Listen to God, who gives the Spirit to all who believe His Word.

          As for ALL the Muslims being destroyed, you don’t understand the power and grace of God. In the end millions and million (of people you think unworthy) will turn to God and be saved. That includes Muslims. (Of course, THEN they will no longer be Muslin).

          • Good comment.
            I think it was SunTzu who said the above line, although many have quoted him and added their own bit of insight.

          • Toddler
            First of all we know in our Church that the NT is written to Jesus in this life. So when you mention the best places in Church etc it is written to Jesus. God gives him orders so he shall not be cocky and bullies. When you read when you pray don´t go to synag. go in to your bedroom close the door and pray there. It is a message to Jesus. God doesn´t Jesus to involve Churches in his life this time because he will be the most hated man on earth. We in our Church knows tis message and the NT is written to Jesus in his next life so we go to Church every sunday and holidays etc.

            You don´t understand the power of God I do. If you read OT it is written that Gasa will be a pasture for animals in future. This means people from Gaza will be killed. If they would turn to God they will survive. If you read Isa 17 you will understand that God will desttroy Damascus in a earthquake. The City is a muslim city. I can give you a lot of ex but this is enough to understand that muslims will not turn to God they will be destroyed.

            In Matt Jesus says he will come back in the end time and fire up what satan has planted. he doesn´t say he will turn them to God he will fire them up so I have another opinion then you regarding non Christians.

        • The Pope is NOT the stand-in for Jesus. That job is already taken. It belongs to the Comforter, the HOLY SPIRIT.

          You said, “The Popes know more then us. maybe they are wrong maybe they are right.” How do you know they know more? Just because they tell you they do? Are you willing to bet your soul on this? Obviously, you are.

          Dru asked you the question, “Do you know Jesus, personally?” Does Jesus know you?
          Jesus prayed, “And what is eternal life? It is knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom You have sent.” Eternal life isn’t gotten by going to church, prayer 7 times, etc. it is by knowing, and being known by, God.

          • I think I know Jesus and he knows me.
            When we are baptized we have right to be born again or eternal life according to NT. Don´t you know this from NT?
            you are right that eternal life isn´t gotten by going to Church etc. But If I fullfill more of my faith then others does then I have the right to be reborn earlier then thoose who haven´t fullfilled the faith.

          • I forgott the first question. The Pope has more sources then people outside has. So he does know more then others.

          • Oh well! I tried…again.
            Adam, I do not know what to tell you. You are surely under a strong delusion.

  233. James
    Time to wake up. Time to discuss.

    Regarding the first Best in Rev 13
    “heads the name of blasphemy” Christians and Jews don´t use blasphemy names only muslims do. Like Mulla omar muhammed usaba bin laden kafir etc.
    ST malachy saw a vision when he was in Rome and could tell us about 111 popes from his time. Anly God can see into future.
    “and the dragon gave him his power” So God is behind Rome. Satan gives the first beast his power but not the ability to see into the future.

    I see dreams that Usama bin laden comes back to life.
    “And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death! He was shot in the head i think. I am not shure.

    You say it is the Vatican who is the first beast
    “who is able to make war with him”
    Vatican don´t have the power to make war. They have not army or weapons and so far no heavenly power.

    “And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies”
    Pope never talks blasphemies against God. He loves God and his son.
    “And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven”

    “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world”

    All people on earth shall worship him. The protestants hate the Vatican/Rome because of history. I know that rich protestants will not worship the Pope.

    Conclusion. The first Beast is a person and can not be the Pope, The Vatican, The Catholics or Rome. The first beast is most likely a crazy muslim. Everybody must understand. The first beast is someone who hasn´t read the NT because no stupid man will fullfill the beast prophecy if he had read it because he is Gods enemy. So the first beast is someone from another religion and most likely muslim. Muslims fight with everyone. It is a religion for aggressive people. Not lovely ones like Christians.

    Regarding the second beast.

    “and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast”
    The Vatican will never force people to worship the first Beast. The Vatican only wants us to worship God and Jesus. No one will ever be Pope in Rome and force people to worship the first beast after prophecy is fullfilled with the first beast.

    “he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men”
    The next Pope Jesus will make it rain fire and Brimstones from heaven but he can not be the seond beast because it says he can only make it rain fire from heaven in the sight of men. Jesus will be alone with his family but his family will not be famous or talk official.

    ” that they should make an image to the beast”
    The Vatican will never say to make an image of the first beast after the first beast prophecy is fullfilled. Because all Christians will undertstand that the first Beast is Gods enemy.

    “would not worship the image of the beast should be killed”
    We Ortodox and Catholics live after the Ten Commandments and one is not to kill. We will never kill someone who doesn´t worship the first beast.
    Christianity is free and will never be forced upon someone like islam.

    “And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads”

    No protestant or Ortodox will take order from the Vatican. And the Catholic world has read the Bible so Christians are prepared to not take a sign on the right hand or on the forehead. No 666 no chip or no Popes title in latin.

    Jesus who is in the Vatican 🙂 will tell people that if someone tries to implement a new currency system into the world when he holds the doom we are not allowed to accept it. satan created money. Jesus will force us out to the Country side and we have to fix our own food and live without money.

    The next Pope Jesus the prince that will be the worlds king in future will tell us what we are allowed to do and the Pope will not say anything against him. They are friends. Jesus loves the Vatican and the Vatican loves him. Period.

    1 and 2 beast is muslims and will never be the Pope, Vatican or Rome

    I will defend my Church here on this blog as long as I can be here. Only a block can stop me.

    The woman on the seven hills are Mary Magdalena and the Prostitute woman is here to in Rev 17. She is satanist and she thinks she gonna be rewarded by satan when she dies so she has persecuted Jesus in this life with evil spirits.

    I am not crazy.

    • You only think you’re not crazy. 🙂
      You can’t argue with someone who makes stuff up.
      Mary Magdalene still alive and living in Sweden. Really?
      You can’t argue with that!

      • Not still alive. She is reborn!

        • Oh yes, reincarnated, like Jesus and Osama Bin Laden.
          Right.

          • God can put a soul in pregnant woman. So God just takes her soul from hell and put it in a pregnant woman and 9 months later she is reborn. It is not the same with Jesus. He looks the same everytime he is reborn so he is created by the Holy spirit.

            • So why would God reincarnate anyone just so He can destroy them? If she is already dead and buried, why bring her back to life? If she is just a single person, a model you say, then what will she do that is so horrible that God needs to kill her?
              God must be crazier than you are. 🙂

              • Gow wants to destroy Jesus in this life because he started to make trouble with his father that he is God. So God choosed a muslim family that was to born and raise him. His mother is Hebrew from juda tribe but muslim. So someone had to make him a Christian. We tried to tell him that he is Jesus but after we told him that we died. Satan has killed a lot of us. He didn´t beleive in it. So Mary Mag. sended the devil in him and he started to feel bad. After almost 2 years he came to the Ortodox church for help. And we helped him. He could do this by his own but he is destroyed in this life so he asked for help. So Mary Mag. was born to make him a Christian.

                Go to sleep now

                • So what about your story that Jesus was on the planet Nibiru and was not supposed to get to earth until last Dec. 31st? Thar proved to be false, but now you say he was born in Sweden and is in the Vatican. If you are going to make up crazy stories you should at least try to keep them straight.
                  So let‘s wait and talk again after Nibiru finally gets here. Then maybe I’ll start to believe in anything you have to say. 🙂
                  O.K., now I’m going to bed.

                  • I said Jesus lives normaly on the planet nibiru but was reborn on earth about 40 years ago. Jesus have told me that his time starts when Nibiru comes here. I thought nibiru would come here 21 dec 2012 because a lot of reasons but I was wrong. Nibiru will come but I don´t know when. I don´t say he was born in Sweden he has lived his hole life in sweden but is born in Turkey. His enemies.

                    You must understand something James. South america 25 % of US and many in canada. South and east and some western countries in europe and people in middle east are Catholics we will not let anyone burn up our Churches. We will die for our faith. So forgett about that the woman is the Catholic Church. The woman is a woman and it is Mary Mag. Period

  234. Add
    Regarding sell and buy. American central bank is behind this.

  235. Babylon = Confusion
    All I see in this blog is a lot of illogical, contradicting nonsense!
    If we were at all logical, we could only conclude that all of the symbolism concerning the Last Days are to do with a ONE World Government, or what is often termed as the NEW WORLD ORDER!
    Just like Tower of Babel!
    Logic Tells me that there IS already a UNITED Nations Organization!
    Logic ALSO tells me that there are TWO Financial Institutions that are connected with this UN Organization! – World Bank & IMF, which is the Innocent looking (Lamb-like), but can be ruthless like a dragon!
    Rev.13:11. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    Is it not the BANKING system which caused all of those foreclosures in the USA? …Is it not the fact that one cannot BUY or SELL without permission to do so in the hands of the BANKING system?
    Take a look at the articles you BUY, there are usually a 1/123456/123456
    with each corresponding bar code, aren’t there?
    Digit ONE/followed by 6 Digits/followed by 6 digits …? – 1/6/6 or 166
    That is the Products code. …Why not NUMBER People with the same method? … eg. 6digits/6digits/6digits …? – 666?
    The WOMAN is without a doubt a RELIGIOUS grouping.
    Vatican City was declared a legitimate country in recent history. SINCE it was declared or recognized as having sovereignty, there has been 7 Popes in charge! Ratzinger (Pope Benedict) is the 7th!
    Rev.17:10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
    It appears that John-Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) might soon be waking from the dead as a clone or whatever and could be the following :-
    Rev.17:11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
    I believe that the UN has the backing of the 7 heads (G7)
    I Believe that the 10 Horns are the 10 Divisions of the World TRADE Org.
    This is shown also on the BAR CODE (0-9)/6/6 … 0 – 9 = 10?
    Recapping:-
    Beast 1 = UN (7 heads [G7] & 10 horns [World TRADE Divisions])
    Beast 2 = 2-horned beast (World Bank & IMF)
    World TRADE Center {9/11} deadly wound heals!

    • hi Olaf

      Your interpretation is very possible, and valid.

      people here are working through and testing different views

      the way things are going in the world, confirmation should come very soon

  236. Olaf,
    As Marianne said, we are all working through and testing our different views. (Most of us) don’t claim to have it all figured out. Some of our ideas ARE nonsense. We are bouncing ideas off each other so that others can show us where our ideas fail. That way we can refine our ideas and eventually come to a greater understanding. None of us can know what will actually happen until it happens. And it isn’t really all that important for us to be right. It’s about sharing, growing, learning together as believers in Jesus.

    I have some questions regarding your theory:

    A) The Woman IS a religious system, but how does the Vatican ride/sit on/control the UN Beast?
    B) IF the seven heads/kings of the Beast are Popes, according to OUR vantage point, 5 HAVE fallen. But according to John, who was writing during the first century NONE had fallen yet. And NONE had yet come. In HIS time, from HIS vantage point, five had fallen, one was, and one had yet to come.
    C) How can the 7 heads/kings be Popes AND the G7 at the same time?
    D) If the seven heads/kings are the G7, which five of the G7 have fallen, and which ONE IS? (In this case, would actually mean it is a G1.)
    E) Why does the United nations have the appearance of a Leopard, which Daniel tells us is Greece? Why the feet of a bear (Medo-Persia) and the mouth of a Lion (Babylon).
    F) I don’t know where you live, but I live in the U.S. and have NEVER seen a bar code like the above. I don’t know what yours is supposed to prove. The one I’m looking at now is 7/33961/24528/8.
    G) We don’t need logic to see that U.N. exists. But to say it is the Beast is speculation.
    H) Why do the UN and the World Bank and IMF hate the religious “grouping?”
    I) Who are the Two Witness that torment the world for 1260 days.
    J) Why does the UN kill the Two Witnesses? And why does the world have a party when he does?
    K) Where do the saints, the Temple, Jerusalem fit in?
    L) World Trade Center = deadly wound? (I don’t know how to make a symbol for rolling the eyes, so I’ll just tell you. I’m rolling my eyes.)
    M) Revelation can only be understood through the “lens” of the rest of the Bible. Revelation is a book of symbols. These symbols are explained throughout the rest of the Bible.

    I could finish the alphabet with questions, but these are enough to convince me your theory needs work. Although I do agree there will be a One World Government/New World Order/World economy, it’s not quite here yet. When it does appear, it will be for a short space, and then the true Beast will take over. And believe me, it will be MUCH worse than what we see today.

  237. James,

    YOU SAY:
    O.K., let me address everyone with issues on the Islamic Antichrist.
    First, the Book of Revelation is all about the churches, both in John’s time and the end times. Israel’s participation ended after the 70 weeks were over in 34AD. True there are many prophecies in the Old Testament that involve modern day Israel but the Book of Revelation is for New Testament Christians. If you try to make it all about Islam and Israel you are already on the wrong path.
    I SAY:
    You must believe in Replacement Theology. Sorry, the Church is not Israel. Israel is the Church.
    This is what Moses told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet…he was in the CHURCH (Greek: Ekklesia) in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mt. Sinai. The Founder of the Church is Jewish. The first Christians were Jewish. The foundation of the City in Revelation has twelve foundations with the names of the twelve JEWISH apostle. The names of the tribes of Israel are written on its Gates. It wasn’t until approximately 3 years after the crucifixion, that Gentiles were allow to be grafted in to the Church, replace the UNBELIEVING Jews who were pruned off.

    The 144,000 are from 12 tribes of Israel, the Jewish remnant saved out of the Tribulation. Sorry, they are not Seventh Day Adventists. (Christian cults always think they are the 144,000.) If it was meant to be symbolic, God wouldn’t have specifically NAMED the individual tribes, excluding Dan. (What tribe are you from?)

    The 70th week of Daniel are about HIS people and HIS city. Of course you believe that week is over. It isn’t.

    YOU SAY:
    If you think the first beast is going to be an Islamic empire, then what is the second beast? The one with all the authority of the first beast with two horns like a lamb? This beast appears to be Christlike, but is controlled by Satan. And this beast must destroy three kingdoms of the first beast. But if the first beast is the Antichrist, hoe does that ever fit?And the first beast only lasts for 1260 years before receiving a deadly wound, then being replaced by the second beast. This fits the Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican perfectly. The Vatican ran the Holy Roman Empire and it will run the soon coming restored Holy Roman Empire. It has an image (pope) who is the substitute for Jesus Christ, but we know that is blasphemy. And the pope’s title (in latin) adds up to 666.
    I SAY:
    1) Islamic tradition say the Mahdi will appear with Jesus at his side. This counterfeit Jesus will admit the he is not the Messiah, that the people of the cross misunderstood. The will promote worship of the Beast. The Mahdi is the Beast; the counterfeit Jesus, the False Prophet who looks like Jesus, but lies like the Dragon.
    2) The Beast, the Antichrist, is the little horn that comes up among the Ten Kings and uproots three of them, not the False Prophet. This little horn is the same horn that grows out of one of the four horns of the goat, starting out small, but then growing toward the south, east, and toward the Beautiful Land (Israel).
    3) The 1260 are DAYS, not YEARS. Stop trying to force historical event to fit your theory. The 1260 days = a time, times and half a time = 42 months = second half of the the 70th week. ALL refer to the same time period lasting 3 1/2 years.
    4) It DOESN’T fit then Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican perfectly.
    5) The Book of Revelation is written in Greek, not Latin. I’m pretty sure John was talking about a Greek or Hebrew (Gematria) name that added up to 666, not a Latin one. (Don’t you dare tell me it has something to do with requiring a mind that has wisdom).
    6) If the False Prophet is the Pope and the Image is the Pope, why or how does the Pope “have the power to give breath to [himself], so that [he] the Image [can] speak.

    YOU SAY:
    How do you expect something similar to happen in the near future? And is the beast a kingdom or a person? And why would a Christian False Prophet tell his followers to worship Islam? And don’t say the devil made him do it. This is prophecy, not a Flip Wilson routine.
    I SAY:
    1) The Beast is BOTH a kingdom and the RULER of that kingdom. (A kingdom can’t be thrown ALIVE into the Lake of Fire and be TORMENTED day and night, forever. A demonic being can. The Beast, False Prophet and the Dragon are a Satanic Trinity.
    Dragon imitates God, the power behind it all.
    Beast imitates Jesus, the one who came in the FLESH
    False Prophet imitates Holy Spirit, the one who testifies about and points us toward, the Jesus.
    2) It is not a Christian False prophet. The Muslims believe Jesus is a MUSLIM prophet. If the False prophet is indeed a future Pope, all the would be required for Islam to accept him, is for him to deny that Jesus is God’s Son. According to Daniel, the Antichrist ‘has no regard for the God of his forefathers,’ i.e. Christianity. It makes sense then why he could tell his followers the follow the Mahdi.
    Remember, Satan is a counterfeiter.
    Many Catholics who don’t know the Word of God will be deceived into thinking the Beast is Jesus.
    a) Jesus Will bring peace when He returns. The Antichrist will sign a covenant of peace.
    b) Jesus performed miracles. The Antichrist and False Prophet will also.
    c) There is a war when the Beast appears – Gog Magog. There is a war when Jesus appears.
    d) Jesus was crucified and rose again. The Antichrist has a fatal wound that is healed.
    e) Jesus will rule the world. The Antichrist will rule the world for 3 1/2 years.
    f) Jesus will reign from Jerusalem. The antichrist will reign from Jerusalem.
    g) Jesus entered the Temple. The Antichrist will enter the Temple.

    Many Jews and nominal Christians will be deceived into thinking that the coming of the Antichrist is the second coming of Jesus. (Many Jews believe there will be two Messiahs, hence the Beast AND the False Prophet.)

    According to a Catholic prophecy from the 1100s, the last Pope will be “of the synagogue of Satan.” And it is during his reign the Rome will be burnt.

    Actually, the DEVIL DID MAKE HIM DO IT. 🙂

    YOU SAY:
    And yes, the nations (people) turn on the woman at the very end. Once the pope is revealed as the False Prophet Christians all over Europe who were forced into the mark of the beast by the Vatican (Sunday worship) and who are suffering the seven last plagues, will surely want to destroy the source of their pain. They may burn down every cathedral in Europe in fact, all owned by the Vatican, the second beast.
    I SAY:
    1) Nobody is FORCED to take the Mark. They choose to take it, and Revelation says that IN SPITE of THE PLAGUES, people REFUSE to REPENT.
    2) The BEAST and TEN HORN burn down Rome, NOT Christians.
    3) You need to get this Adventist Sunday Worship Mark of the Beast nonsense out of your head, or you will never see the truth.

    YOU SAY:
    As for Jesus being the False Prophet, that is silly. The False Prophet is destroyed by Jesus in the Lake of Fire, and if you actually believe in the Islamic prophecy of the Mahdi, then you should be blogging on a different site.
    I SAY:
    1) OUR Jesus is not the False Prophet; the Muslim”Jesus” is the False Prophet, a counterfeit Jesus.
    2) The Muslim prophecies seem to mesh with the Bible. The Muslim Mahdi is the Christian Antichrist, The Muslim “Jesus” is the Christian False Prophet. The Muslim Antichrist and False Prophets are the Christian Two Witnesses.

    YOU SAY:
    As for the popes’ miracles, God said they would fool even the very elect. So a Muslim performing them would never be believed by the most devout Christians.
    I SAY:
    The Bible NEVER says that a POPE’S miracles would fool even the elect. The Bible says the ELECT will NOT be deceived, whether by a Pope or a Mahdi.

    YOU SAY:
    And no Muslim could convince anyone he is God / Jesus. First of all Muslims don’t believe that Jesus is God, so they are out. And they would never think he is Allah, that would make them infidels and they would all be killed. Not gonna happen. Illogical too.
    I SAY: I’ve refuted this elsewhere.

    YOU SAY:
    Regardless of the falling away of the Catholic church, which was prophesied by the way, there are 1.3 billion Catholics and growing, way more than all the Protestants combined. But 11 protestant churches have already pledged to return to the Vatican, having resolved their differences with the mother church. Interestingly, Martin Luther split from the church saying many of the things I’m saying now, then the church came up with the theory of futurism to deflect the prophecy from themselves. But it took until modern times for the Protestants to buy into it, and now they believe it with a vengeance – the “Left Behind” scenario. Prophesy fulfilled.
    I SAY:
    1) The fatal wound healed is not a prophecy of the return of the Catholic Church or the Holy Roman Empire. Adventist NEED the Catholic Church to be the Antichrist to support their false Sabbath is the Mark of the Beast theory.
    2) If Martin said it’s true, well it must be!
    3) I’m NOT a FUTURIST. I believe in partial recurring fulfillments of prophecy, with a complete FINAL fulfillment. In other words, I’m a Partial Preterist Historicist Futurist all rolled up into ONE.
    Why do I believe this? Because I believe God is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH bigger than all of our puny theories. God has given the Holy Spirit to ALL who believe on Him (not just Sabbatarians). Therefore, since our wisdom is from God, then I believe we ALL have SOME of the TRUTH. Sabbatarians arrogantly proclaim that only THEY have the truth. ALL the other Sunday worshippers are lost.
    “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convince in their own mind. “”Therefore don’t let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon Festival, or A SABBATH DAY. These are a SHADOW of things that were to come.”

    Adventists have difficulty discerning between the SHADOW (physical rest on the seventh day) and the SUBSTANCE (rest in Jesus, and ultimately rest for the entire earth during the TRUE SEVENTH DAY, the Millennial Kingdom.

    YOU SAY:
    So you guys have got to get your beasts in order. You act like the beasts are kingdoms then turn around and turn the beast into a person – the Antichrist, and claim he will be dictator of the world – a “New World Order” which you claim is already in place. Really? All the world’s countries are joined together in peace right now? So where is the Antichrist and who exactly will put him in charge? Certainly not the US and the European Union among many others. So where does one man get the power to defeat all the armies of the civilized world?
    I SAY:
    1) Beast = Kingdom AND Ruler of that Kingdom. You say the HEADS on the Beast are KINGDOMS, don’t you. ( Vatican, Holy Roman Empire, etc.) BUT the BIBLE says the seven heads are seven KINGS, NOT KINGDOMS. And Daniel says of Nebuchadnezzar, “YOU are that head.”
    Therefore, since the seven heads are seven KINGS, they CAN’T be the Roman Empire, Vatican, Holy Roman Empire as you say. And the seven hills? The Vatican sits WEST of the Tiber River. The hill sit EAST of the Tiber River. maybe God needs a geography lesson, huh?
    But the Greek word should be translated “mountain,” anyway. (And it isn’t to fool the guards…sheesh!) In the Bible a mountain is a …what, a kingdom? ……Yes! A Kingdom! Amazing. The Heads ALSO refer to Kingdoms AND the Rulers of those kingdoms.
    2) Never said there was a New World Order…. yet. The Beast, the “little horn” arises AFTER the Ten Kings (NWO) are in place. The Beast comes to power after BABYLON comes crashing to the ground (Chapter 18).

    YOU SAY:
    And you claim this theory is simple and uncomplicated! Oh wait, the devil lets him do it. Mankind loses free will and becomes the puppets of Satan. If so then God’s wrath would be solely against Satan, not the mind-controlled humans under his magical powers. Oh wait, Satan doesn’t have such powers, only God does. Satan will influence the False Prophet and his kingdom, but he can’t force billions of people to do his bidding. If he could, he would have done it thousands of years ago. So don’t try to pull a Flip Wilson on me here.
    I SAY:
    The Bible says people worship the Dragon, who gave the Beast his authority. Remember, the world is at enmity with God. They worship the Dragon and the Beast WILLINGLY, AND they REFUSE to repent despite the plagues God sends.

    YOU SAY:
    As for Adam, sorry dude, but you’re just plain nuts.
    You don’t even believe Jesus is divine but just a lowly human. And that krapp about Mary Magdalene is pure fantasy. But then you‘re only here to bust our chops, having escaped from a YouTube video with nowhere else to go.
    I SAY:
    I agree!!!

    YOU SAY:
    So for a simple recap:
    1.The EU and Vatican combine forces against the Muslim threat.
    2.The final pope declares mandatory Sunday worship – something already proposed by John Paul II in 2002 while in a conference in Brazil.
    3.The pope )False Prophet) increases his following by performing miracles.
    4.The plagues happen and most Christians search for the reason they are afflicted.
    5.The words of the two witnesses are finally believed and they come to their senses and turn on the church and all its apostasy and destroy it.
    Compare that to all the unbelievable international shenanigans that must happen, not to mention putting 8 billion chips into the right hands of every person on earth. Not to mention the banking nightmare that would go along with all that.
    But the prophesy says that most of the Christian world will follow the Vatican beast and wonder after the False Prophet, its image. Seems like 99% of people on this site, and the rest of the world for that matter) are already on board. Even those who believe they are among the very elect.
    I SAY:
    A) Regarding #4, by most Christians, do you mean “non-Seventh Day Adventist?
    B) The words of the Two Witnesses are NEVER believed. The world hates them, the Beast KILLs them and the world CELEBRATES.
    C) I never said the Mark had anything to do with chips. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don’t know what the Mark will be. I know what it will NOT be….Sabbath Worship.
    D) The Bible DOESN’T say “moat of the Christians world will follow the Vatican Beast. YOU said that. Here’s what the BIBLE says:

    “The WHOLE WORLD (not just Christians) was filled with wonder and followed the (NO VATICAN HERE) Beast. People will worship the Dragon…ALL INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH (not just Christians) will worship the (NO VATICAN HERE) Beast…

  238. Hi Todd,

    I don’t understand why you are so sure the Mark is not Sunday worship, as the “one day is as good as another day” argument is VERY thin.

    Most churches will likely follow the Vatican because most, or perhaps all, ARE in apostasy already.

    I’ve written a poem about this, called
    The Blind and Naked Lady.

    Each 4 lines have 4 Bible verses to go with them, as follows:

    Rev 3:17
    Eph 6:15
    Heb 12:13
    Rom 10:15
    Casting off the clothes of a lady, you became naked.
    Though your feet were once with the gospel shod,
    You chose to run blindly down a crooked path –
    A BAREFOOT church of God

    Lam 2:18
    Ps 80:5
    2Th 2:3
    Jer 13:16
    O wall of the daughter of Zion
    Let your tears flow day and night.
    You let deceiving men deceive you
    And so you lost your sight

    2Th 2:11
    Prov 20:17
    Deut 32:32
    1Pet 2:25
    You swallowed every lie
    You gullibly were fed.
    Through fraudulent deception
    You went wherever you were led

    Jer 26:5
    2Chr 36:15
    Mat 22:3
    Mat 22:5
    “Rising up early and sending”
    His servants sent letters to every son.
    Though many invitations were sent
    You never answered one

    Ezek 13:10
    Lam 2:20
    2Pet 1:19
    2Ti 2:15
    O wall of the daughter of Zion
    Could your punishment be worse?
    Foretold in nearly every prophecy —
    Between the lines, in nearly every verse

    Jer 9:1
    Is 56:10
    Hosea 6:1
    Jer 13:15

    “Oh that my eyes were a fountain of tears”
    To weep for those who refuse to see.
    God advises: “Return, O daughter of Zion, RETURN,
    Once again to me.”
    ___
    Rob

  239. P.S. I suppose I should add more explanation for why I say the arguments against Sabbath keeping are very thin.

    In Col 2: 16,17 Paul is actually saying don’t let anyone judge you for how you KEEP the Sabbath days.

    Regarding the Shadow VS the Body, in verse 17, Paul may actually be saying that the body of Christ may judge, (the word ‘is’ is in italics in the KJV, which means it has been added by translators) however even if the usually accepted translation is correct, it is still a fact that Christ (the head of the body who judges OR Christ who is the substance) has already judged in this matter, and continues to uphold ALL of the ten commandments, but NOT the doctrines of men who have added to the law, so it’s clear that the Sabbath is still to be kept. We are told to FOLLOW Jesus example and he clearly KEPT the Sabbath.

    As for Romans 14:5, Paul clarifies in verse 6 that he is talking about choosing one day over another on which to FAST… he is not talking about worship at all there.

    I know many people argue about all this, but I thought I’d add it in case there is anyone who thinks there is not a valid other side to the coin of this subject, because Sabbath keepers do have a strong case to put.

    • Well, I’m glad I’m not totally alone here.
      I know I will never convince anyone to change their long-held beliefs, so I’m not going to try. I have already studied many different interpretations and I have settled on the one that makes the most sense to me. All I’m trying to do here is expose my interpretation to as many people as possible, so when events begin to unfold, those who have heard my words will be ready and can prepare themselves.
      And believe me, if I ever see a dictator take control of the whole world, I’ll be ready for the rest.
      Bless.

    • Nice timing
      The intent of the Law, was to turn man’s heart to a heart of flesh before the Lord (Humility). Instead, It turned man’s heart into a heart of stone, and hardened it (Legalism, Phariseeism, self righteousness, Pride)

      When I put myself on a scale, with the Law, I fail miserably. When I put Jesus on that scale, he fulfilled it. God in the flesh, Humbling himself to give us what the Law could not. Eternal forgiveness of sin, a supreme act of Love, His Grace and mercy. It is on the cross that we find rest. Rest from our works, which when compared to the supreme sacrifice of Jesus are like dirt to be trodden on. “For we who believe have entered that rest” (Hebrew 4:3) “Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. For the word of God is LIVING and ACTIVE, sharper than any two edged sword, piercing the division of the soul and of the spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (verse11, 12).

      Everyday with Jesus is that resting place that the Law promised. “For whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his” (verse 10)

      This is the goal of our faith…to rest from our works, and to rely solely on the blood of Jesus to save us. I suggest you read Hebrews 4 in its entirety. No work of man will save them, apart from the blood of Jesus. Therefore, sunday worship, or holding the seventh day cannot save them nor condemn man. Denying the power of the blood of Jesus, and relying on man to save himself, will, and does condemn man.

      The fourth commandment is about rest, and not about worship.Our faith rests on the blood of Christ and his work on the cross. Many choose to worship on the day of his resurrection. You are free to worship on the seventh day, So long as you have found your rest in Jesus.But to say that this work of man will save man, is akin to saying the blood of Jesus is insufficient.
      Shalom

      • O.K., Gotcha.
        So I can kill a guy if I think he deserves it (like he is Muslim), and I can screw my neighbors wife, as long as she’s really hot.
        Thanks.
        I’ll tell Jesus on judgement day you said it was O.K.
        🙂
        (Break one commandment, you’ve broke ‘em all.)

        • you TOTALLY missed dru’s point

          • Thank you Marianne.

            • No, I got the point. You should keep SOME of the commandments, but you can ignore the rest. Drawing a painting of Jesus is fine, he doesn’t mind. Work on Saturday and keep Sunday holy, God doesn’t care. Some laws are made to be broken. Right?
              We all have the right to change or ignore any commandment if we have a good reason. There are no more commandments, they were nailed to the cross with Jesus. The tablets have been lost for 2500 years, so out of sight, out of mind, right?
              There will be a Great White Throne Judgement soon. Why bother if there are no more laws? Will we be judged on our dressing or our cooking or our ability to memorize bible verses?
              The fourth commandment is the only one that begins with the word “remember” the Sabbath day to keep it HOLY. It was sanctified by God, its not just a mandatory day off work, It is our day to rest and commune with the lord. It is a day He set aside to be with Him.
              It seems that God knew that the world would forget this one. Of all the commandments, ask yourself which one is being abused and ignored the most. Which one do most people feel they can forget about just because they don’t like it or because they were raised with another (pagan) day.
              Daniel says the beast kingdom (Holy Roman Empire) would think to change laws and times. Only the fourth commandment involves a time, so that IS the one God is concerned about.
              And modern blue laws in the EU are already forcing businesses to open on Saturdays and close on Sundays or else they can not get a business license. The hints are there if you look and understand.

              • James,
                Asking a person who thinks they can impress God to understand what entering his resting place is like, is like asking a tribal child from south america what their favorite ice cream flavor is. You can tell them till they are blue in the face, but until they try it, they do not know what they are missing.

                This is not about ignoring the Law, it is about fulfilling the law by having it written on our hearts.You will NEVER understand this, so long as you are looking at your works to save you.

                TODD
                Do you see why this line of debate gets nowhere, and why Paul Warned Titus to avoid these “foolish controversies” about the Law, and that such a person is “warped and sinful; he is self condemned.” (3:9-10)
                They do not understand the difference between Godliness, and wickedness.

                As Paul Harvey would say: “and now you know the REST of the Story…”

                God bless.

                • Yes, I see. But aren’t we all engaging in a foolish controversy with Adam and James. Hey, isn’t that ironic. The Adventist call this end-time battle between Sabbath-keepers and Sunday-keepers, “The Great Controversy.” (It’s actually a book written by their prophetess E.G.White, whose words they hold on the same level as the Bible. Most Adventist also believe they are the 144,000 in Revelation. Along with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.)

                  I just started third shift at work recently and it’s been kinda slow, so I don’t have much to do. So I figured I’d engage in some futile arguments 🙂

                  I’m on my iPad, so I’m typing all of this with one finger. (Maybe I just like torture.)

                  Like I told Marianne, these discussion make me look back to the Word, and confirm what I believe. I just have a few more comment to make about James theory and then I’ll be done…maybe.

                • To love God is to keep His commandments. I guess Sunday worshippers just don’t love God that much. But it doesn’t mean they’re not saved. They will simply be the least in the kingdom of heaven. No big deal if you really don’t care about such things.
                  Just W.O. You know, I keep the Sabbath because God wants me to. I’m not a 7th day Adventist, so I don’t have to follow any of their “rules” whatever they might be. I don’t know and I don’t care to learn them. I’m am simply a commandment keeper because the bible tells me to keep them.
                  Go ahead and argue with that but you’ll only dig yourself a bigger hole on judgement day. I’d love to watch you argue your point to Jesus Himself.
                  And someday you will.

                  • Neither James nor I are SDA. You don’t have to be SDA to keep the commandments!

                    Right after talking about the mark of the beast in Revelation 14:12 the bible is STILL talking about how great it is to keep the commandments, but perhaps when it says ‘commandments’ it actually means the NINE commandments, but the angel just forgot to mention that.

                  • James,
                    Stop putting words in my mouth…this is your Modus operandi. This is how you bring division. I said:

                    “This is not about ignoring the Law, it is about fulfilling the law by having it written on our hearts.You will NEVER understand this, so long as you are looking at your works to save you.”

                    This DOES NOT contradict keeping his commandments. It does imply a lack of understanding this comment on your part, Which You confirmed in your response. If you think you can live up to the Law and be counted worthy on Judgement day, then I can assure you you will fail. Even if you live up to the “letter of the Law”, you will miss out on the “Spirit of the Law”. Oh, and then there is the “New commandment” of Jesus, which we all fail miserably on “To love one another as he Loved us”.

                    So Just for you, I will post all of Hebrews 4 so you can actually read it for a change. (Parenthesis mine)

                    Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.[a] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said,

                    “As I swore in my wrath,
                    ‘They shall not enter my rest,’”

                    although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said,

                    “They shall not enter my rest.”

                    6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,

                    “Today, if you hear his voice,
                    do not harden your hearts.”

                    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, (The Word rest here is a “resting place”) God[b] would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, (This verse is the ONLY time the word for “sabbath rest” is used in the new testament) 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

                    11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

                    Jesus the Great High Priest

                    14 Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

                    When we become Christians we enter the promised resting place when we submit our will to God’s will, and live by faith, thereby resting from our works. We can only do this, when we realize that when we are put on a scale with God’s standard, we fail miserably. This leads to repentence at the foot of the cross. But for those who continue to believe their works are sufficient, They will continually be be told “They shall not enter [his] rest[ing place]”

                    I would rather enter his resting place, than to deceive myself into believing the lie you are promoting.

                    You really like fooling yourself. Don’t you?

              • james

                a believer who lives under grace has no desire to break God’s law…but they do have more liberty, and more favor with God, and more help in keeping his law.

              • James, you seem to have a habit of putting words in peoples’ mouths.
                Like I told justintime, God has made a new covenant with Israel. It is called the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The Mosaic Law, also called the Law of Condemnation is cancelled. The Law of the Spirit has just two commands. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. All ten of the Old Covenant laws are summed up in these two:
                If you love God and others, you won’t worship others gods, you won’t murder or hate, you won’t lie, steal, commit adultery or lust after another, or desire your neighbors….ass. Or his ox. 🙂
                And you definitely won’t worship on Sunday. God forbid! No, if you love God you will worship on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday AND Saturday.

                • Todd,
                  I use extrapolation of logic in my arguments. It is a common debating technique. I also use sarcasm to make certain points. Many people aren’t used to this style of debate.
                  By the time I’m done, they will be.

                  • Your “extrapolation of Logic” is mocking God. Eternal salvation is not an item to be sarcastic about. We serve a living God who was and is and is to come. You serve a god who was, is not, and is to come….HMMM?

                  • you going to have to drop the sarcasm.

                    sarcasm is hostility and demeaning others….it is unacceptable..

                    you extrapolate using opinion, not facts.

                    stick to facts

        • dru and James
          Jesus blood on the cross makes us free from moses laws. actually it is God who took our sins upon him so we didn’t have to follow moses law. Jesus blood doesn’t makes us free from the ten commanments. James it is for jews that if they break one od moses laws they break them all. If I lie or download unlegal material from rich people on Internet I will not be acused or judge in the same way a as adultery or killing someone. my point is the ten commandments are different from moses laws. If I break one I only break one not all. I rest on sundays and you james on saturdays. read col 2:16 and you will understand that it doesn’t matter what day we rest. the important thing with the commandment is to not work all days in the week. Jesus has already told me this. dru you lay all your faith in the blood of Christ. this is martin luthers work. as I said the cross or blood only makes us free from moses laws not the rest that our forefathers have given us.

          • When You live up to the commandments of Jesus Christ, then we can talk. When I put HIS law on the scale with me there is no way I can live up to his standard. Especially that “New commandment he gave in the upper room. Love one another as he loved us.

            Man cannot save you, neither can church, or the Law. Only Jesus blood has the POWER to forgive, cleanse and save that which was/is Lost.

    • This is an issue of Law vs. Grace. Probably something we will never agree on (until the Tribulation, when you realize Sabbath-keeping isn’t an issue). You believe we are still under the Mosaic Law, the Ministry of Death. I believe we are under the New Covenant, Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, which was put into effect when Jesus die on the cross – which is why He still followed the Sabbath during His ministry. The New Covenant wasn’t in effect yet.

      In Galatians, Paul makes the point that the Law given by Moses was an addition to the Abrahamic Covenant. It was added in order to make sin very clear so that we will all know, and be without excuse that we have fallen short of the righteous standard set before us by God. So it was a temporary addition until the Messiah came, the Seed, and now that He has come, the Law has done its job.

      “Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity THERE IS ALSO A CHANGE IN THE LAW. For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness.”

      With Jesus there is a New Priesthood according to the Order of Melchizedek. This system is different from the Levitical Priesthood. If you have a New Priesthood you need a new Law under which it can operate. Equally if you have a new Law, then the Old Priesthood has no structure under which to operate.

      Previously only one type of priesthood was permitted, the Levitical Priesthood. Now this Hebrews text clearly tells us that the Levitical Priesthood could not bring perfection. Blood sacrifices only temporarily covered sin, Jesus’ blood brings complete removal of sins.

      The writer of Hebrews says that the Levitical priesthood has been done away with and replaced with the Priesthood of Melchizedek. This would require a change in the LAW. As long as the Law of Moses was in effect, no other priesthood was valid except the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood.

      Hebrews 7:18 states that the Mosaic Law was set aside because it was weak and useless!

      Because it is no longer in effect, we now have a New Priesthood after the Order of Melchizedek. If the Mosaic law were still in effect, then how could Yeshua function as a priest?

      Yeshua is a priest after the Order of Melchizedek.

      We read in II Corinthians 3:

      You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Messiah, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. And we have such trust through Messiah toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

      -Paul refers to the Law as the ministration of death
      -He calls it the ministration of condemnation
      -Verses 3 and 7 highlight the Ten Commandments as these are the tablets or engraved stones
      The point Paul is making, the Ten Commandments were leading to death and condemnation. If they were in force today, this would still be true. Good then that they are no longer in force and are passing away. From this passage it is clear, that the Ten Commandments are no longer legally in effect.

      The Law still stands to reveal the holiness of God, provide a rule/guide for conduct, and to define sin, and ultimately it is a tutor to lead us to utter faith in Jesus. However it is clear that no righteousness, justification, sanctification or perfection is through the Law. This comes through Jesus the Messiah’s work. This is the fulfillment of Law, and brings the Law to its intended completion.

      The superiority of the Law of the Spirit is seen by the fact that it will be never be rendered inoperative.

      This said:

      The New Testament never describes the Sabbath as the one great issue that will divide the true believers from the false believers. If the Sabbath was such a profound issue, such a “life-or-death” matter of eternal consequence, then why did Jesus and the Apostles say nothing of its importance?

      Paul told Christians not to judge each other regarding the keeping of the Sabbath (Col. 2:16) or any other day they decide to keep holy.

      Paul also said, One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. Rom. 14:5 ( I am convinced that ALL days are alike and are to worship God on ALL of them. If the seventh day Sabbath were a requirement, it would be God’s choice, not ours).
      In the book of Romans, Paul encouraged Christians to uphold the law (Rom. 3:31), but he did not over-emphasize the importance of the Sabbath. Why not? Was it because God wanted us to figure out the most profound issue in Christianity on our own, without any help or guidance from His Word? Or was it because the writers of the Bible were uninspired and had no idea this would become an issue at the end of time? Of course not!

      It is absurd to think that such a critical decision–a decision upon which hinges the eternal destination of the Christian believer–would be met with silence by Paul and other New Testament authors. Every student knows that when a teacher has an important point to make to his students, he reiterates that point over and over again. Jesus and the Apostles were the greatest teachers this world has ever seen. The points they repeatedly emphasized were:

      Love
      Grace
      Forgiveness
      Mercy
      Doing good to others
      Faith
      Salvation
      Return of Christ
      Dangers of legalism
      These subjects are repeated over and over again in the New Testament. What about the necessity of keeping Sabbath as a holy day? Oddly enough, it is never mentioned in the New Testament, not even once. And yet are we to believe this is the single-most important issue that is supposed to decide the fate of humanity?

      Adventist end-time theology all boils down to this: Those who keep Sabbath go to heaven, and the rest get burned in hell fire. This is a species of legalism. It makes the Sabbath, instead of grace or salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, the most important end-time issue. It takes the focus off of Jesus and puts the focus on works of the flesh. Any Christian can tell you that what day you go to church on does not make you a Christian in any way, shape, or form. A man may go to church on Saturday, but his heart may be filled with hatred, adultery, and every kind of evil. Another man may go to church on Sunday but his heart may be filled with love, kindness, faith, and the grace of God. The external act of keeping a day holy is not a “sign” or “mark” of true Christianity. The “sign” of true Christianity is having Jesus in your heart and loving others:

      For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Gal. 5:14)

      According to Adventist end-time teachings, God returns back to the earth to punish the evil-doers, whose great crime is in forcing people to worship God on Sunday. The battle between Sabbath-keepers and Sunday-keepers is supposedly the final battle in the Great Controversy. Is Sunday-keeping such a great and horrendous sin? Let’s look at the major sins pointed out in the New Testament and see how they are impacting us today:

      1) Murder, Genocide, Terrorism Matt. 15:19, Rom. 1:29, Gal. 5:21, Rev. 9:2
      Tens of millions killed in the last 75 years–Germany (Hitler), Soviet Union (Stalin), Uganda, Serbia, Bosnia
      2) Witchcraft, Occult/Satanic Activities Gal. 5:20, Rev. 9:21 Harry Potter generation; Wicca (Witchcraft) is fastest growing religion in the world; New Age deceptions
      3) Drunkeness, orgies Luke 21:34, Rom. 13:13, Gal. 5:21, 1 Pet. 4:3 Alcohol sales booming around the world; drugs are destroying the youth; pornography destroying marriages
      4) Persecuting and killing Christians Matt. 23:34, Luke 21:12, Rev. 17 More Christians being persectued and killed today than at any time in human history
      5) Greed Luke 18:22, 1 Ti. 6:10, James 5:1-6 Thousands of children die every day from malnutrition and diseases while the rich get richer
      6) Homosexuality Rom. 1:26-27, 1 Cor. 6:9 Perversion is destroying the marriage covenant and the family unit
      7) Pollution Rev. 11:18 Smog is filling the air, chemicals are poisoning our food and water supplies
      8) Not worshipping on Saturday ? ?

      Adventists seem to spend a lot of time harping on the sin of Sabbath-breaking, but it does not appear to have caught the attention of the authors of the New Testament. Adventists want us to believe that Sunday-keeping is the one heinous sin above all others that identifies someone who is disloyal to God. What about Genocide? Murder? Rape? Child abuse? Greed? Persecution? Blasphemy? Witchcraft? Those sins do not even make it onto the Adventist list. According to Adventists, the Mark of the Beast is Sunday-keeping. But NOWHERE in the Bible is there even a HINT of the Mark being Sunday-keeping. (Nor is the SEAL of God Sabbath-keeping. The SEAL is the Holy Spirit.)
      The Seventh Day Adventists have every right to worship on the Sabbath and they should if they are convinced that is the right thing to do. However, if any member of any church were to require a person to worship on the Sabbath as a sign of “true” Christianity or “true” redemption, then that is wrong. According to Rom. 14:1-12, we are free.

  240. dru and toddler
    you say church can’t save me. don’t you beleive in the Nt? to get right t eternal life/new life you have to be baptized. You baptize in the Church so Church gives you right to new life.

    todd
    the difference between my and your church is that yours is only based on the bible. our is based on bible and what the Popes and patriarchs has created. the question is did they have the right to build up the faith? It it was so important with saturday sabbat then Jesus would have resurected on saturday instead of a sunday. we have changes sabbath to sunday because we want to give all our respect to Jesus. If Jesus had arised on a saturday then we would still celebrate sabbath on saturday.
    I want to ask James if he had worked on a saturday ?

    • istone

      jesus observed the saturday sabbat, so it was important.

      if he rose from the dead on saturday, it would have been considered “work”

    • No, the church can’t save you. You become part of the Church as you are saved. Was it Noah’s Ark that saved him, or was it God who told him to build it, and then gave him EXACT instructions as HOW to build it? Would it have been right for Noah to change God’s instructions or ADD to them? Could Noah have built a fourth level and put a Jacuzzi and weight room in it? Or maybe added just a couple more windows so it wasn’t so dark? No, but that is what your church leaders do.

      The Temple is a picture of the Church, with Jesus the cornerstone, the apostles the foundation stones. The Church is being built as each believer, represented by a stone in the Temple is added. Your church leaders claim to be part of an imaginary “apostolic succession.” Sorry, but the foundation has already been laid. No more adding to it. Would it have been ok for Moses to add a couch to the articles in the Holy Place? That way he could turn down the light of the Candlestick, grab a piece of bread, put his feet up and relax. No, I don’t think so.

      You are correct in saying that our difference lies in the fact that I follow the Bible only, and you follow the Bible PLUS church “tradition.” Although I do believe church leaders have the right to “build up” the faith, it doesn’t mean they can ADD to the God’s Word. Their rules and teaching MUST agree with the Bible.
      (I have no problem with you worshipping on Sunday. There is evidence in the New Testament that the disciples and early Christians were already worshipping on Sunday.)

      • todd
        you say no one is allowed to add anything. In one way you are right. we are not allowed to add words or remove words in the Bible. But the Ort. and Cath. Church knws that the NT is written to Jesus in this life and that we kniw that our patriarchs and popes should build up the faith. I can give you an ex. and I have given this before. In Nt is says when you pray don’t go to the synag. go ibto your bedroom and close the door and pray there. we in our Church knows that this is a message to Jesus in this life because he shall not involve any Church in this life because he will be the most hated person on earth. So we have builded up a faith where we shall go to Church every saturday and other days too. If this message was to all Christians we would not build Churches. we would have prayed at home. but we know that Jesus wants us to build up our faith or to say it more correctly Jesus wants to follow the apostles faith which is the Ortodox Church.
        The hole NT is written to him in this life because his father wants to destroy him but when he became a Christian then his father wants him to live right.
        Solution- your faith is based on NT and it is written to jesus in this life so you are following a wrong way. My faith is based on what the Apostles creates from the book of acts and the faith we have is given from them. Not all but most of it.

  241. M
    in one way I agree with you but religious things are allowed on saturday. jews curcumsize on saturdays when the eight day comes on saturday. and Jesus picked ax on the sabbath so he worked on sabbath. so Sometimes Jesus gave another point of view of the sabbath.

  242. pick ax = glean
    my church has mass on saturday and sunday and I pray on both days but I don’t work on sundays. I live with fanatic Christians and some of them works on sundays. I still think It not important what day we choose. only that we shall rest one day. and james has not come with good arguments about it. I have going to my Church on all days in the week and I Jesus has to. I will still ref. to col 2:16.

  243. marianne
    let me tell you that Jesus will be the most hated man on earth when he holds the doom so people including you will try to put him with negative persons in the bible so Jesus already understands that now. so if he would start to say we are going back to saturday worshipping then people will say he is the man who changes laws and times so he will not change this back and he has two children who are born on special sundays. he is destroyed in this life so he can not hold a mass but he is automatically the highest priest. he has not gone to priest school because he understood that he is Jesus too late. so when he takes over Rome people will say through him the daily sacrifice was cut of for 3,5 years. But Jesus has prepared this too so their will come priests from our church and hold the mass sometimes so the 3,5 years sacrifice stopp will not occur. people will soon leave over the city Rome to Jesus. they are not allowed to stay. what I want to say is evil or negative persons in the Nt is people who doesn’t beleive in NT beacuse people like us are prepared to not fullfill negative prophecy so James can forgett about Vatican will fullfill something negative in the Bible. most of us reading the Bible everyday and the Popes are experts on the Bible so they will know before something bad happens that they shall not do or fullfill negative things in the NT. James are almost crazy about saturday worshipping. sometimes I go to a Catholic church because the mass is in swedish it is the language i understand best and they have the mass everyday 3 times all 7 days. And my own Church has mass every wen, sat, sun so I think James and the seven days adv. have taken this question to far. we celebrate easter beacuse we whant to celebrate Jesus uprising and we celebrate it on sunday because we beleive he arised on a sunday. we will of course not be judged for this. this is only for love to Jesus. And Jesus has celebrated this with us and soon he will fast 40 days and celebrate on sunday again so James are way off regarding this.

  244. There is so much misunderstanding here I would like to refute, but don’t have enough time, so I will just take two of Todds statements:

    Statement # 1) Todd listed sins covered in the New Testament and seems to think Sabbath keeping is not covered, but I believe it is.

    The commandments are grouped into two sections, first, how to love God, second, how to love people. Sabbath keeping comes under the first section, how to love God.

    Did Jesus change the fourth commandment, as to what DAY it was to be kept? No he did NOT; and which day of the week to keep was so well established it did not need to be retaught by Jesus. Therefore it still applies, and is included as “a given” in the following verses.

    1Jn 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

    1Jn 3:4 also still applies: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Also 1Jn 5:2,3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Therefore, the commandments are still in force. The ones on HOW to love God remain unchanged; and they STILL include keeping the Sabbath.

    Statement # 2) NOWHERE in the Bible is there even a HINT of the Mark (of the beast) being Sunday-keeping.

    Well here’s a hint for you:

    Exodus 31:13 and also verse 17 both say the sabbath God gave to Israel is a sign. The word ”sign” (word # H0226 in Strongs) is the SAME word used for the word MARK in Genesis 4:15, referring to the MARK of Cain.

    So it’s OBVIOUS that the MARK of the beast is also a sign, and that the words SIGN and MARK are interchangeable. One is a sign, or mark, of God’s people and the other is a sign, or mark, of the beast.

    • Hi nice timing,

      Just wondering,

      So do you keep the dietary kosher law yourself, and don’t use say a cell phone, TV, computer etc. on the Sabbath, as the Orthodox Jew’s that believe in doing so contravenes the Commandment of kindling a fire, as expressed in Exodus 35:3. ?
      What would James 2:10., say regarding that?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach.

    • Did you purposely leave off the following or was it an accident:

      “…we keep his commands and do what pleases Him. And THIS is His command: to BELIEVE in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.”

      Yes, I know there are two sections. As for it being a “given,” I think “Thou shalt not murder and thou shalt not steal are givens, too, so they wouldn’t need to be mentioned either. But they are.

      No, it wasn’t mentioned because under the New Covenant, it has a new, completely spiritual meaning. Read Hebrews.

      Yes, I know the sign on Cain and the sign referring to the Sabbath are the same. (The same word is used when referring to the ENTIRE law, not just the 4th commandment (Deut. 6:8).)
      But what does that have to do with the mark of the Beast in Revelation. Just because they are the same word in ENGLISH, doesn’t mean they are the same word in Hebrew or Greek.

      Mark (of Cain/Sabbath): owth: a signal (lit. Or fig.) as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc: – mark, miracle (en-)sign, token.

      Mark (of the Beast): Charagma: a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): – graven mark.

      So, NO it ISN’T OBVIOUS. The two definitions are totally different. Where do you see “sign” in the definition of charagma?

  245. There is a misunderstanding about the law that most people get confused with. Oral law versus written law. The ORAL law is what Jesus rebuked the pharisees for keeping. The ORAL law has lots of nonsense attached to it.

    Jesus said in Matthew 5:17, 18, 19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets (he is not talking oral law here, but WRITTEN law):

    …I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle (WRITTEN) shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments (WRITTEN), and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    I do not follow ludicrous ORAL regulations such as not switching on lights and other NONSENSE ways of interpreting the written law, because the law Jesus was talking about KEEPING in Matthew 5 had nothing to do with oral law.

    But I do keep dietary laws which, when you understand it, Jesus did not annul (and Peter’s vision in no way annulled clean and unclean food laws). Peter’s vision was all about showing that PEOPLE were not unclean, and had nothing to do with doing away with food laws.

    Sorry, I can’t fully address this whole subject that people have filled books with in this brief post. Use the Internet to study it out for yourself, if you suspect there might be SOME truth in what I’ve said, bearing in mind Matthew 5:17-19!

    • I have studied it. But I choose to believe God’s Word over man’s word.

      You are correct about Peter’s vision not being about literal food. That is the only thing I suspect there is truth in.

      “He forgave us our sins, having cancelled the WRITTEN code which stood against us and condemned us.”

      “Therefore, do not let anyone judge you by what you eat…these are a shadow.”

      “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike.”

      “ALL(emphasis mine) food is clean.”

      “The kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.”

      “Therefore, stop passing judgement on one another.”

      So, whatever you believe about these things, keep to yourself and God.”

      Do not let anyone who delights in false humility… disqualify you.

    • Hi, nice timing,

      I would agree that there is a significant amount of misunderstanding regarding this topic, and that it is also controversial, however if I may offer my view for consideration.

      Regarding the translated English word Commandments;

      Though Torah is commonly understood as to be referring to the first 5 books, it actually derives its name from the Hebrew “תּוֹרָה”, transliterated “towrah”, primarily defined as “Law, Direction or Instruction”. It is derived from the Hebrew primitive root word “יָרָה”, transliterated as “yarah”, defined as “to throw, shoot, cast or pour”. In respects to “shoot” within the Qal verb tense, it refers to that of “shooting of arrows” and within the Hiphil verb tense, to “direct, teach and instruct”.

      Though there are numerous Hebrew and Aramaic words that have been translated as “sin”, the most prevalent would be the Hebrew “חָטָא” transliterated as “chata’”, which is primarily defined as, “to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness”.

      Therefore “towrah, and its root yarah”combined together denote, “instruction, direction and teaching” in how to shoot the arrow as to NOT miss the MARK.”
      In other words, in how to walk righteously before God.

      Now these 5 books encompass a vast amount of time, and within this time frame there have been many different laws, directions and instructions proclaimed by God to man. The very first time that the word “towrah” is utilized within the Tanakh has to do with Isaac being told to not go to Egypt and how God, (Adonai, Yĕhovah), will be with him and bless him, “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my “LAWS”.” Genesis 26:5.

      Interestingly enough, the very first commandment made by God to man was not “towrah” but “tsavah” or the Hebrew “צָוָה”, (Genesis 2:16,17. & 3:11 and 17.)
      Tsavah is a primitive root word, and is a verb that is also defined as to “to command, charge, give orders, lay charge, give charge to, order or appoint”.

      There is also the Hebrew “מצוה” or “mitzvah”, (Commandments and Ordinances). The Hebrew “חקה”, or “chuqqah”, (Statue or Ordinance), as well as the Hebrew “פֶּה” or “peh” which refers to the Voice or Mouth of God and has been translated many times into English as the word “Commandments”.

      All of the above, (and more), reflect the Divine Instruction, Direction and Voice of God to man, as to how to walk righteously before Him.

      I do agree with you that there is a distinct difference between the “Written and the Oral law” for Yeshua addressed only the former within Matthew 5, as He expounded upon the written Mosaic law, (having authority to do so being God in the flesh), and explaining that ones “heart” was what was of the most importance, rather than merely the execution.

      Now within Jeremiah 31:31-33., there is also a distinction made as well, between an Old and New Covenant;
      “Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

      And the author of Hebrews in 8:6-13., (which refers directly to that of Jeremiah), does more than indicate that indeed there is an “Old and New Covenant”.

      “But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.”

      Scripture states that Yeshua was born under the law and that of the Old Covenant.
      “But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, “made of a woman, made under the law”, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons”. Galatians 4:4,5.

      The Mosaic law was put in place to be a base line so to speak, to reveal the sin of man. Without the law, there would be no transgression.
      “Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.” Romans 4:15.

      Therefore for Yeshua to be without sin in the eye’s of Father God, He had to fulfill all of the law.
      “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” Matthew 5:17.

      The English “fulfil” above is derived form the Greek “πληρόω”, or “plēroō”. It is defined as, “to make full, to fill up, to fill to the full, to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally, to render full, or to complete. etc. etc.”

      So, It was necessary for Yeshua to fulfill this law completely, and to be sinless in relation to the law, so that He would then be qualified to be the Sacrificial Lamb.
      So Yeshua followed and fulfilled the law that was in place then perfectly, and was sinless, (without blemish), and had no transgression in the eye’s of Father God.

      However when He died on the Cross, a New Testament and Covenant (spoken of in Jeremiah 31), came into force.
      “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” Hebrews 9:14-17.

      Above the author of Hebrews describes the law as being “dead works” for the people performed them carnally and by the letter, rather than from the heart and Spirit.

      Yet the Followers of Yeshua now, fulfill the law through Him and in Spirit.
      Romans 7:6., Romans 8:2 & 4., Galatians 5:18.

      Yeshua Himself declared in John 13:34., “A new commandment (towrah) I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” He also stated, (in verse 35), that doing this is how to be His disciple, “By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”.
      Yeshua also states in Matthew 22:40., that to do this “fulfills or hangs” all of the “law and the prophets”as well.

      As well, do we you receive the Spirit by following the law, or by Faith? Galatians 3:2 & 5.

      I believe that Yeshua fulfilled, (completed) the Mosaic Law, and that through Him I have attained His imputed righteousness in the eye’s of Father God, and I live in both His Liberty and Grace without transgression. I also believe that I try as best as I can daily, out of love and gratitude for this amazing gift through the Spirit, to also fulfill the Ten Commandments by loving others as He loved us. Am I perfect in doing that? Hardly, but that is what is amazing in respects to this gift.
      In the Old Covenant if you failed in one commandment, you failed in all of them. Yet through Yeshua, we are judged on our hearts with Him knowing full well that He was the only man of flesh that could ever fulfill these commandments to Father God’s satisfaction. He is solely the Rock of my foundation and I rely upon nothing other than Him as my King and Lord, for everything.

      That is how I interpret this topic from Scripture.
      I am curious though as to why you abstain from certain foods, when it is not one of those commandments that were specifically written within the Ten Commandments?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaNazarei Yemelekh HaYhudim.
      Amen.

      • There are too many points everyone is making to be able to answer them without devoting my life to it full-time!

        With your last point, in Acts chapter 10 Peter was still not eating unclean food AFTER the cross which supposedly did away with everything… So how come Peter didn’t “get it” either? No one can have told him that he was not paying attention to what Jesus said when supposedly doing away with the law on the one hand, while saying we must teach others to keep the law on the other hand.

        To repeat myself, this was after the cross, and the account says Peter was greatly puzzled by the vision. I guess he must have been just stupid not to get it, as he should have known the diet laws no longer mattered!

        Another reason for keeping the diet laws is not to do with the law but to do with health, as the unclean animals tend to be prone to causing disease, and are generally the garbage eaters of the animal kingdom. Not the sort of animal I want to eat regardless of the law. But knowing this helps validate that law for me twofold.

  246. He thinks that because the word “mark” as in Cain’s mark in Genesis 4 and the word “sign” as in “[The Sabbath] will be a sign” in Exodus 31 are the same Hebrew word, then it follows that “Mark” in Revelation MUST be referring to the Sunday-worship.

    Very logical….NOT!

    That must mean that Cain was a Sunday-worshipper!

    • i doubt cain knew which day was sunday

      • James,
        Just answering the last of your comments. I know that no matter what the evidence, you’ve made up your mind, so this is for others who are unsure. I doubt that you’ve settled on the one that makes sense. Rather, you settled on the one that your Church believes.

        YOU SAY:
        And if Daniel’s time, times and dividing of time equals 1260 days and not years, then the 70th week of Daniel is just that – a week. Not much time for the Antichrist to do his business.
        I SAY
        Strongs Concordance says:
        Day: yowm: to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether lit. (from SUNRISE TO SUNSET) or fig. (a space of time defined by an associated term). Since there is no associated term, the word is taken literally.
        Therefore 1260 literal DAYS.
        Week: shbuah: lit. SEVENED, i.e. a week (Spec. Of YEARS)
        Therefore 7 literal YEARS. Plenty of time for the Antichrist to do his business.

        YOU SAY:
        As for the way John told of the 8 kingdoms he stopped in his story after the fifth, then he continued by saying those five have fallen, then continued to describe the last three. Remember, he was “in the spirit” and was brought to the future to describe what he saw in the vision. So you can’t assume
        everything he said was happening in his lifetime.
        I SAY:
        1) It’s very convenient that he was brought to the exact time in the future to make your theory work. Why wasn’t he brought to the future after four had fallen; or six?
        2) Revelation 17 says:
        One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
        Where in history was John when he received the vision? During the punishment of the great prostitute, i.e in OUR future, NOT during the Holy Roman Empire. The angel is showing John the Woman’s punishment (Revelation 18). If he was, in fact, brought to the future, ALL the kings would have already fallen.

        YOU SAY:
        As for the 3 kingdoms that were destroyed (plucked up by the roots Daniel says. That’s how you kill a plant, so they were not just subdued as you claim), in Daniel (not Revelation) The ten toes are the horns of the Holy Roman Empire with an 11th horn (the little horn more stout than its fellows) in control. In 538 the pope was given control of the empire and he proceeded to eliminate the three Aryian nations. So ten horns became seven. John uses slightly different terms so we have heads, horns, kings and crowns to deal with , but after the three Aryan kings were killed the 10 lands were still there with only 7 rulers. This is the source of the 10/7 references later in Revelation.
        I SAY:
        1) To begin, there were at least 20 tribes that were involved in the downfall of the western Roman Empire, not 10.

        Even more important is the fact that the tribes never conquered the EASTERN Roman Empire, which survived for nearly a thousand years after Rome fell.

        “The Byzantine Empire or Eastern Roman Empire, known to its inhabitants as the Roman Empire, the Empire of the Romans, was the continuation of the Roman Empire during the Middle Ages, centered on its capital of Constantinople, and ruled by Emperors in direct succession to the ancient Roman Emperors.” (Wikipedia)

        The Eastern Roman Empire covered a vast domain at the time of the dissolution of the Western Roman Empire in 476 AD.
        By 600 AD the Eastern Roman Empire had re-conquered and added to its empire large sections of the old western empire, including Italy and Rome
        Territory was gradually lost over the centuries, but the eastern empire was still considered the most powerful state in the Mediterranean in 1045 AD. Constantinople, the capital of the eastern empire, finally fell to the Ottomans in 1453 AD, nearly 1,000 years after the fall of the western Roman Empire.

        If your theory is true, then the image would have one leg with 20 toes on its clay/iron foot, to represent the 20 tribes that conquered the western half of the empire, and another solid iron foot with no toes, to represent the eastern half of the empire!

        2) Did the Papacy uproot three tribes? Adventists teach that the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and Heuli were destroyed by the Pope of Rome. This is pure fiction. None of these tribes were destroyed by the Pope. Any history textbook will explain that the Heruli were defeated by the Lombards, the Vandals and Ostrogoths by the Byzantines. The Pope did benefit to some degree by the defeat of the Vandals and Ostrogoths, but it is uncertain, what, if any, role the Pope played in their demise. More importantly, the Heruli were defeated by the Lombards, who were Arians and avowed enemies of the Catholic Church. The Lombards were already identified as one of the other ten horns, and the defeat of the Heruli did not aid the Papacy in any meaningful way, so it makes no sense to claim the Papacy uprooted the Heruli.

        In addition, two other tribes were uprooted during the same time period by the Byzantines: the Huns (455 AD) and the Alemanni (495 AD). Why do Adventists ignore these uprooted tribes? There is no reason to ignore them except for the fact that Adventists are trying to make the square pegs of history fit into the round holes of their prophetic jigsaw puzzle. They needed three tribes in order to make their theory fit into Daniel’s writings, so they picked three out of the five and ignored the others.

        3)You claim the “feet of clay mixed with iron” is a separate group of kingdoms that arise after the fall of Rome. This is a direct contradiction of what Daniel says:

        And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron… And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
        There is only ONE kingdom (singular) described in this passage. There are not ten kingdoms! The Bible describes a single kingdom that becomes divided (not conquered!) after an element of “clay” is mixed into the kingdom.

        The whole purpose of the book of Daniel is to predict the history of God’s people, the Jews up until the end of their covenant relationship with God. It is a Jewish book, written by a Jew, written for Jews living under the Old Covenant. The ten tribes have little or nothing to do with Israel. The ten tribes never advanced into eastern Europe the Middle East, or Africa until many centuries after Rome’s fall. The ten tribes certainly had no relevance to the Jews living under the Old Covenant.

        According to Daniel no empire arises after Rome. Your theory of Daniel 2 as an image that covers human history from Babylon to the end of time puts them in the difficult position of saying that Rome was the last great empire. However, that position is difficult to maintain when compared to actual historical facts.

        The Ottoman Empire, the nation that conquered the (eastern) Roman Empire in 1453, rivalled the size and power of Rome. Founded in 1299 AD, this empire conquered a vast region spanning three continents. At the height of its expansion, the Ottoman Empire controlled 10% more territory than Rome at its height. Not only did the Ottoman Empire conquer the Middle East, but also Arabia, Mesopotamia, Southern Russia, Southeastern Europe, and Northern Africa. For centuries its fleets dominated the Mediterranean Sea. The Ottoman Empire was also an economic super-power, controlling the channels of trade between Europe, Asia, and Africa. The empire lasted over six centuries, finally coming to an end in 1923. Not only did this empire rival Rome, but it greatly surpassed the size and power of prior empires, including Greece, Medo-Persia, and Babylon.

        The existence of the Ottoman Empire, a vast empire which dominated the civilized world for centuries, refutes the idea that the image of Daniel 2 describes the rise and fall of all world empires until the Second Coming of Christ.

        Yet another world empire that dominated the world before the Ottoman Empire was the Mongol Empire. Founded in 1206 AD, this empire dominated the world for over 150 years, until its demise in 1368. This immense empire was the largest empire ever founded upon the earth. It stretched from the Pacific Ocean on the east to Eastern Europe on the west. It included China, Mongolia, southern and western Russia, Persia, Mesopotamia, Pakistan, Kashmir, part of Turkey, and even extended into the eastern European nations of Poland and Romania. It covered an area more than twice the size of the Roman Empire at its peak.

        The existence of this massive empire and that of the Ottoman Empire is proof that Daniel’s image never intended to cover all of human history, but only the history of the Jews living under the Old Covenant.

        YOU SAY:
        As for John’s 7 mountains reference, you must remember that he was in a Roman prison and everything he wrote was scrutinized by the Roman jailers. By disguising the word hills with mountains he was able to fool the captors into thinking he was referring to some place other than the Roman empire. It even fools a lot of people today. Good job John!
        I SAY:
        1) Gosh, fooled me. Boy, do I feel silly!
        2) The Woman doesn’t even sit on seven hills. The Vatican is west of the Tiber River. The seven hills are east of the Tiber River.
        3) You make the Holy Roman Empire BOTH the Beast AND one of the Beast’s HEADs.

        YOU SAY:
        As for the ten economic regions; You say each region will be ruled by a king, so north America will become one nation under a king. Forget the constitution. Lets appoint a king for the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Guess we won’t have to worry about immigration reform after all. NEVER HAPPEN! And you say all these kingdoms will be ruled by a Muslim Antichrist? Who is going to elect him? NEVER HAPPEN!
        I SAY:
        1) I guess you’re are so focused on the EU that you haven’t seen the systematic demantling of the Constitution.
        2) I explain this elsewhere.

        YOU SAY
        So Babylon is now rising to power? So you think Babylon is actually Iraq. God said that Babylon would be destroyed and would never rise again. Are you saying He was wrong? And you mentioned that if Babylon was a religion Revelation would have simply said so. Well it did. The full tern used on the woman’s forehead is “Mystery Babylon” referring to the Mystery Babylon religion used by Baal worshippers, like those at Mt. Carmel and in Jericho. You know what happened to them in the Old Testament. Same will be true in the new.
        I SAY:
        Let’s compare the Old Testament to Revelation:

        Jeremiah:
        “FLEE FROM BABYLON!
        Run for your lives!
        Do not be DESTROYED because of her SINS.
        John:
        “‘COME OUT OF HER, my people,’
        so that you will not share in her SINS,
        so that you will not receive any of her PLAGUES;
        Jeremiah:
        It is time for the LORD’S VENGEANCE;
        he will repay her what she deserves.
        John:
        She will be consumed by fire,
        for mighty is the Lord GOD who JUDGES HER.
        Jeremiah:
        Babylon was a GOLD CUP in the Lord’s hand;
        she made the whole earth drunk.
        The nations drank her WINE;
        therefore they have now gone mad.
        John:
        For all the nations have drunk
        the maddening WINE of her adulteries.
        The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
        and the merchants of the earth grew from her excessive luxuries.”
        Jeremiah:
        Babylon will SUDDENLY fall and be broken.
        John:
        Therefore in ONE DAY her plagues will overtake her:
        death, mourning and famine.
        Jeremiah:
        WAIL over her!
        Get balm for her pain;
        perhaps she can be healed.
        John:
        “When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will WEEP and mourn over her. Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry.
        Jeremiah:
        “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
        you mighty city of Babylon!
        In one hour your doom has come!’
        “‘We would have healed Babylon,
        but she cannot be healed;
        let us leave her and each go to our own land,
        for her judgment reaches to the skies,
        it rises as HIGH AS THE HEAVENS.’
        John:
        ” …for her sins are PILED UP TO HEAVEN,
        and God has remembered her crimes.
        Jeremiah:
        The Lord will carry out his purpose,
        his decree against the people of Babylon.
        You who live by many WATERS
        and are rich in treasures,
        your end has come,
        the time for you to be destroyed.
        John:
        “Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many WATERS.
        “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city,
        where all who had ships on the SEA
        became rich through her wealth!
        In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’
        Jeremiah:
        The Lord Almighty has sworn by himself:
        I will surely fill you with troops, as with a swarm of LOCUSTS,
        and they will shout in triumph over you.
        John:
        When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke LOCUSTS came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.
        Jeremiah:
        The Lord will take vengeance,
        vengeance for HIS TEMPLE.
        May the violence done to our flesh be on Babylon,”
        say the inhabitants of Zion.
        “May our blood be on those who live in Babylonia,”
        says Jerusalem.
        Therefore this is what the Lord says:
        “Babylon must fall because of Israel’s slain,
        just as the slain in all the earth
        have fallen because of Babylon.”
        John:
        “In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
        of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
        Jeremiah:
        Then say, ‘Lord, you have said you will destroy this place, so that neither people nor animals will live in it; it will be desolate forever.’ When you finish reading this scroll, tie a stone to it and throw it into the Euphrates. 64 Then say, ‘So will Babylon sink to rise no more because of the disaster I will bring on her. And her people will fall.’”
        John:
        Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
        “With such violence
        the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
        never to be found again.

        A) John seems to be quoting from Jeremiah. Could it be the destruction of ancient Babylon was a foreshadow of a future destruction.
        B) Was ancient Babylon overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah? No, it was conquered by the Medes and over the course over several centuries faded into obscurity.
        C) Was she uninhabited through all generations so that no nomads pitched their tents, and no shepherds rested their flocks? No! There have always been shepherds and nomads there.
        D) Has it been empty of people throughout the generations? No, people have always lived there.
        E) Has the sea risen to cover her, or the waves rolled over her? Nope.
        F) My conclusion is that fulfillment the prophecy is also future.

        Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
        the pride and glory of the Babylonians,
        will be overthrown by God
        like SODOM AND GOMORRA.
        She will NEVER BE INHABITED
        or lived in through all generations;
        there no nomads will pitch their tents,
        there no shepherds will rest their flocks.

        “So desert creatures and hyenas will live there,
        and there the owl will dwell.
        It will never again be inhabited
        or lived in from generation to generation.
        As I overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah
        along with their neighboring towns,”
        declares the Lord,
        “so no one will live there;
        no people will dwell in it.”

        The SEA will rise over Babylon;
        its roaring WAVES will cover her.
        Her towns will be desolate,
        a dry and desert land,
        a land where no one lives,
        through which no one travels.

        G) To me, the following sounds like events at the end of the during the Day of the Lord.
        Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
        shout to them;
        beckon to them
        to enter the gates of the nobles.
        I have commanded those I prepared for battle;
        I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath—
        those who rejoice in my triumph.
        Listen, a noise on the mountains,
        like that of a great multitude!
        Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
        like nations massing together!
        The Lord Almighty is mustering
        an army for war.
        They come from faraway lands,
        from the ends of the heavens—
        the Lord and the weapons of his wrath—
        to destroy the whole country.
        Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
        it will come like destruction from the Almighty.[a]
        Because of this, all hands will go limp,
        every heart will melt with fear.
        Terror will seize them,
        pain and anguish will grip them;
        they will writhe like a woman in labor.
        They will look aghast at each other,
        their faces aflame.
        See, the day of the Lord is coming
        —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
        to make the land desolate
        and destroy the sinners within it.
        The stars of heaven and their constellations
        will not show their light.
        The rising sun will be darkened
        and the moon will not give its light.
        I will punish the world for its evil,
        the wicked for their sins.
        I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
        and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
        I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
        more rare than the gold of Ophir.
        Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
        and the earth will shake from its place
        at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
        in the day of his burning anger.

        YOU SAY:
        When G.W. Bush spoke of a new world order…
        I SAY:
        I was talking about G.H. Bush.
        “In a January 1991 speech, he identified the opportunity to build a new world order “where the rule of law…governs the conduct of nations,” and “in which a credible United Nations can use its peacekeeping role to fulfill the promise and vision of the UN’s founders…these specifics in describing Bush’s concept of a new world order clearly lean toward a globalist interpretation.”

        Forty-five years ago, while the fires of an epic war still raged across oceans and two continents, a small group of men and women began a search for hope amid the ruins. They gathered in San Francisco, stepping back from the haze and horror, to try to shape a new structure that might support AN ANCIENT DREAM.
        George Bush, 1990

        What is that ancient dream? Does the Tower of Babel ring any bells?

        “We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time
        Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended
        our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost
        forty years.”
        “It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world
        if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.
        But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a
        world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite
        and world bankers is surely preferable to the national
        auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”
        David Rockefeller

        All countries are basically social arrangements, accommodations to changing circumstances. No matter how permanent and even sacred they may seem at any one time, in fact they are all artificial and temporary. Through the ages, there has been an overall trend toward larger units claiming sovereignty and paradoxically, a gradual diminution of how much true sovereignty any one country actually has.
        Federalism has already proved the most successful of all political experiments, and organizations like the World Federalist Association have for decades advocated it as the basis for global government. Federalism is largely an American invention. For all its troubles, including its own serious bout of secessionism 130 years ago and the persistence of various forms of tribalism today, the U.S. is still the best example of a multinational federal state. If that model does indeed work globally, it would be the logical extension of the Founding Fathers’ wisdom, therefore a special source of pride for a world government’s American constituents.
        Strobe Talbott

        YOU SAY:
        I can see the final kingdom ready to form (the restored Holy Roman Empire) which will consist of a union between the 6th and 7th beasts – the EU and the Vatican. You said yourself how the Muslims are invading the EU like lice. At some point in the near future, the EU will get fed up with these Muslim infiltrators and declare that Christianity is the official religion of the kingdom. They will force Sunday worship and ban Friday and Saturday worship to lock out the Muslims and Jews. This scenario seems far more likely than a Muslim taking over the entire earth. And since the first seven kingdoms have already materialized I have no reason to believe the eighth will not also appear.
        I SAY:
        1) Pure speculation. No evidence of this anywhere in the Bible. And since I’ve shown your Ten Kings/Three uprooted horns to contradict actual history, all that follows from that, falls to dust.
        2) Show me ONE place in the Bible that even hints that Sunday-worship will be an end-time issue.

        YOU SAY:
        Now let me ask you who or what you think the first and second beasts of Revelation are and the 7th and 8th kings he mentions.
        Are the beasts people and also the two last kings? And if they are people how do they match with the beasts of Daniel which he specifies are four kingdoms? You also call one woman a church and the other woman a country. Why the inconsistencies? Wouldn’t God want to use the same images for the same things? Is he trying to trick us or something?
        I SAY:
        1) Daniel specifies them as four kingdoms. But he also specifies them as kings when he tells Nebuchadnezzar that HE IS THAT HEAD of gold.
        2) Your belief that the Holy Roman Empire, the Vatican and a (non-existent) HRE is pure speculation, especially in light of the fact that, among a dozen other things, your theory ignores the entire eastern half on the Roman Empire.
        3) I’m not sure where I said the Woman was a country. I don’t believe that.

        YOU SAY:
        Well time will tell who is right. In your case you’ve got a ton of stuff that has to happen including some major world-shaking events never before seen in history. Good luck with that. I’ll be watching though, just in case you’re right. I hope you will be watching for what I have mentioned.
        I SAY:
        1) You seem to think all these things are all going to happen very soon. Since no one knows the day or hour, there’s no reason to believe that. It could be ten or more years before the Antichrist shows up.
        2) I believe the Bible describes some coming major WORLD-SHAKING EVENTS never before seen in history; things like a total collapse of the world economy, a massive invasion of demonic spirits who are release from the bottomless pit, natural disasters on a level not seen before, etc.

        YOU SAID:
        I know you are desperate to make a point when you have to quote some journalist to get the definition of a bible term. So are you sure that God uses the same definition as Sean Murphy? And if Islam is a kingdom, who is the king? I thought that they are all separate countries with many of them warring against each other. Doesn’t sound like a real kingdom to me. Sure they use Sharia law, just as many Christian countries try to use the Ten Commandments as their guide. What you are using is pure semantics. If Islam were a kingdom it would be a member of the U.N. just like the Vatican. So technically, it is NOT a true kingdom, just a religion with laws.
        There is a difference between the Catholic church and the Vatican. It is like democracy and America. The citizens are like the church members and the Government is like the Vatican. As I said , the Vatican is a recognized nation in itself. It runs a church, not a religion. It has a headquarters named after it, just like Washington D.C.
        I SAY:
        A) So are you sure that God uses the same definition as the United Nations?
        B) I’m not all that desperate to make a point.

        YOU SAID:
        The beast carries the woman but is not controlled by her. The church (the catholic people) sits on the Vatican system just as the citizens of a country sit on their respective governments. They are linked together, each depending on the other.
        I SAY:

        SO YOU CHANGED YOUR MIND? This is what you said: “The Vatican does not ride (and control, like a rider) all of Islam. Not even part.
        But the Catholic church rides on its vehicle, the Vatican. They are forever linked as one.” According to this you are interpreting “ride” to mean “control, like a rider.” Why the change of mind?

        YOU SAY:
        As for the Antichrist, I don’t believe the beast is also a man. The Antichrist is never mentioned in the Book of Revelation. John mentions the term only 4 times in another book, and it refers to every person who denies Christ, not one end-time world ruler. In Revelation there is only the beast kingdom, the False Prophet and Satan. So the man of sin is the False Prophet, not an Antichrist. But the False Prophet is not the second beast. The first beast was the Holy Roman Empire, and when it was “killed” by the sword of Napoleon in 1798, the Vatican remained, still holding all the religious power it had while the Holy Roman Empire was still in effect. The next pope will be the False Prophet He is the “image” of the Vatican beast (2) and will have the power to enforce Sunday worship.
        As for worshipping the beast, it is a metaphor. John sees an image of a beast which represents the Vatican / catholic system and all its apostasy with over a billion worshippers. He therefore sees the whole (Christian) world following the Vatican system, all of them calling the pope “Holy Father” a term Jesus reserved for God himself. That is the definition of blasphemy. The popes have always claimed to be the substitute for God (Jesus), so again, blasphemy.
        You have a big conundrum with your Antichrist concept. He must both deny Christ and claim He is the Father. And he must fool the very elect (Christians).

        I SAY:
        READ YOUR BIBLE! The more you insist on your theory, the more foolish you look. The more you try to weasel your way out of your rabbit whole, the deeper you go.
        A) The FIRST Beast is worshipped.
        B) The False Prophet MAKES the earth WORSHIP the FIRST BEAST, WHOSE DEADLY WOUND HAD BEEN HEALED
        C) THE MAN of SIN is WORSHIPPED
        D) The False Prophet is NOT worshipped. Therefore it followers that:
        The Man is sin (the one worshipped) is not the False Prophet (the one NOT worshipped). LOGIC!
        E) You say the False Prophecy is not the second Beast? John thinks you’re wrong:
        “Then I saw a SECOND Beast coming out of the land…it made the earth worship the FIRST Beast!”
        F) You say the First Beast was “killed?” According to John again, the First Beast ISN’T KILLED. Only a HEAD on the Beast had the deadly wound.
        G) The Pope ISN’T the Image. The Image is of the FIRST Beast. The False Prophet forces the earth to worship this Image (of the FIRST BEAST). So is the earth going to worship the vatican?
        F) Worship is a metaphor? So the Man of Sin isn’t REALLY worshipped?
        G) Conundrum?
        a) He denies Christ.
        b) He claims to be God. No contradiction here. And stop trying to be deceitful and sneaky by substituting FATHER for GOD. The Antichrist never claims to be the Father. However, I does say he shows no regard for the God of his forefathers.
        c) Jesus NEVER said the elect would be deceived. He said, the elect would be deceived, IF THAT WERE POSSIBLE. It is not. It is the WORLD that is deceived. STOP making the entire and times about Sabbatarian vs. non-Sabbatarian. It is NOT.
        H) Satan is a counterfeiter. It makes sense that there would be a Satanic trinity that parallels THE Trinity. Father, Son, Spirit. Dragon, Beast, False Prophet.

        YOU SAY:
        How can this happen if the “Antichrist” and his prophet are Muslim? And how will the Muslim world react to such an idiotic claim? It isn’t something a true Muslim would ever do.
        I SAY:
        Do you think praying to Mary, asking her to intercede, “adoring” her can be considered worship? I do. Listen to this:

        “Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O MUHAMMAD (YA MUHAMMAD), I SEEK YOUR INTERCESSION with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: “for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me”].”

        This and dozens of other passages in their writings show that “respect” and “adoration” Muslims show to Mohammad already amounts to worship. It isn’t a stretch to say that when the Mahdi appears he won’t also be worshipped, especially if he kills Christians and Jews. Jesus said the time would come when those who kill you will think they are doing God a service.
        You seem to forget that there is a whole wide world out there that is at enmity with God and His Chosen. These are the majority that will follow the Beast. I believe millions and million of Muslims will turn to the true God when they realize the truth, spoken by the Two Witnesses.

        After all, Allah and the Dragon are one and the same. Satan doesn’t care who is worshipped as long as it isn’t God.
        Revelation says the world worshipped the Dragon because he had given authority to the Beast. They also worshipped the Beast

        YOU SAY:
        You may think that two new Muslim empires will arise soon with a world dictator Antichrist who will “come in peaceably” and convince every country on earth to give up their sovereignty to him but to me this is nonsense.
        Even if a new Muslim prophet did arise, he would be hated by all of God’s true followers. Your entire scenario is simply illogical.
        I SAY:
        A) Correct, he WILL be [hated?]* That is why they will be BEHEADED. (*I’m not sure true believers will hate him, but they will definitely refuse to follow him.)
        B) I believe that the world is going to experience earth-shattering changes in the future- worldwide economic collapse, natural disasters, a massive increase in demonic activity cause by the abyss being opened, wars and more wars. In the midst of this chaos, the world will look for a savior.
        C) It won’t be the Beast who convinces everyone to give up their sovereignty. It will be the United Nation.
        The first president of the United Nations General Assembly, Paul-Henri Spaak, who was also a prime minister of Belgium and one of the early planners of the European Common Market, as well as a secretary-general of NATO, affirmed,
        “We do not want another committee, we have too many already. What we want is a man of sufficient stature to hold the allegiance of all the people and to lift us up out of the economic morass into which we are sinking. Send us such a man, and whether he be God or devil, WE WILL RECEIVE HIM.” (emphasis mine)
        “The United Nations is the greatest fraud in history. It’s purpose is to destroy the United States.”
        – John E. Rankin
        a U.S. Congressman
        “The age of nations must end. The governments of nations have decided to order their separate sovereignties into one government to which they will surrender their arms.”
        – U.N. World Constitution
        “No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a LUCIFERIAN Initiation.”
        – David Spangler
        Director of Planetary Initiative
        United Nations

        Once this new power structure is in place, he will win the worlds allegiance by destroying Christianity and he will replace the NWO with the Beast system.
        And the world will not be FORCED to receive a Mark. They will accept it gladly because it will be a better alternative than starving and dying. Believers on the other hand, loved not they lives unto death.

        YOU SAY:
        As for: AND THEY ALSO WORSHIPPED THE BEAST and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?” Well if the beast is Islam, I can tell you that the US and many allies have already waged war against it. And they will continue to do so. Just ask Osama Bin Laden. Oh wait, WE GOT HIM.
        I SAY:
        Osama Bin Ladan IS dead. BUT, is ISLAM?

        I SAY:
        I’ve never said that my theory didn’t have holes. The details might be wrong, but the general outline seems to fit the Bible.

        You, one the other hand, have stated that your theory is perfect and flawless.
        Yet, I’ve shown you again and again, that it is full of contradictions, twisted history, tweaked dates, and speculation.

        Your theory is built on a belief that the Adventist Church is God’s Chosen and all other Christians are apostate, because we worship on Sunday. I believe we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus the Messiah. My salvation will not be determined by what day I worship, but on God’s goodness and grace. God is looking at my heart, not my day of worship.

        The End.

        • So Todd,
          You are convinced that God Christianity will be wiped out and Muslims will take over the whole planet in the next 20 years.
          So God is warning the Muslims in the Book of Revelation about what He will do to them if they don’t straighten up.
          And my entire scenario is not even biblical.
          So then maybe Adam is correct when he claims that Jesus will rule the millennium from the Vatican as the next pope. We will all worship on Sunday, go to confession and mass and revceive holy communion etc. There is no need for God to clean up His bride before the marriage, right? And in the millennium there will be no laws. What happens to the wicked that are reaped at the Second Coming? What did they do to be judged? Maybe God will kill everyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus or never even heard of Him. Some God of love, eh? If the commandments are void, then so is the first. So we are allowed to have other God’s than Yahweh. Even an Antichrist God.
          Your interpretation has gone astray, away from God’s people to false religions.
          Therefore you have no reason to believe the modern church needs to be altered in any way. We will still celebrate Christmas, lent and Easter. I guess we could still pray to Mary instead of to Jesus, even though she will be resurrected. And then maybe Jesus will move to the Mormon temple in Utah, too. It’s all good right?
          Sorry, I don’t buy it. God is pissed at His churches, just as Jesus was in Revelation 3. Every other book of the bible was written for God’s people and there are plenty of precedences where God tell His people to shape up and follow His laws or they will be punished. The Book of Revelation is no different. You have turned it into a Sci-fi novel about world politics and banking etc.
          Just go back to Jeremiah or even Noah and that is where you will find your answers.
          That’s all I have to say about it.
          The rest is up to God.

          • james
            I said Jesus will hold the doom from the vatican. probably 3,5 years. then he will go back to nibiru for a while and come back to jerusalem and he will rule the mill. kingdom from Jerusalem.

          • Wow, you sure do put words in people’s mouths. Adam is correct about Jesus ruling over the world during the Millennium, but I think that is all he’s right about.
            No worship on Sunday ot Saturday, no confession, mass, communion either. We will celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, though.
            What did the wicked do to be judged? They broke God’s commands. If you read the list is Revelation, there’s no mention of the Sabbath. Just murder, sorcery, etc.
            No, my interpretation has not gone astray. God is concerned with the entire world. The battle is not about Sunday vs. Saturday. It’s about an entire world at emnity with God vs. those who love and trust God.

      • True.

        (You do know that was a joke, don’t you?)

    • Todd,

      You said there was no hint, so I gave you a hint. An excellent hint.

      Here’s another hint: Deut. 6:8 …the sabbath was to be kept as a sign on the HAND and a frontlet between the eyes.

      The commandments were to be frontlets, which were worn on the FOREHEAD. I believe this is symbolic language, more than literal.

      So here’s the significance. Where is the mark of the BEAST to be placed? See Rev. 13: 16. It is in the same place — hand and forehead.

      Therefore the mark of the beast is a law forcing people to break these commandments, and it has to do with buying and selling, just as the sabbath does.

      This IS logical, if you have eyes to see it.

      • You are misquoting scripture…..deut is about ALL 613 mitzvot…….not just 10 commandments, or as you say JUST the sabbath..the greatest of which is to love God

        Deu 6:1 ¶ Now these [are] the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do [them] in the land whither ye go to possess it:

        Deu 6:2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

        Deu 6:4 ¶ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

        Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

        Deu 6:6 ¶ And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

        Deu 6:7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

        Deu 6:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

        Deu 6:9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

  247. To continue, the only reason for not understanding the Mark of the Beast is if you don’t understand that there are still ten commandments, not nine.

    (Or perhaps it’s 9 minus 1, while God rubbed out #4 and then made a correction, adding a different one, because he accidentally got it wrong the first time, so he now has 10 commandments, but with 1 crossed out and a little correction saying “Sunday” off to the side of the whole thing. Yes, I AM being ridiculous — on purpose.)

    If you DO understand that there were, and always WILL BE the ORIGINAL ten COMMANDMENTS, then if follows that a sign or mark is something that corrupts this, if it has to do with the IDENTITY of those who accept them or reject the commandments.

    It IS a sign OR a mark. It has nothing to do with the mark of Cain, accept that example shows that it is legitimate to interchange the word sign for mark, according to the Hebrew usage of the word.

    In the old testament, keeping the sabbath is a sign or a mark of obedience or disobedience, and in the new testament it’s the SAME.

    • Hey nice,
      Welcome to the sarcasm club, buddy!
      🙂

      • sarcasm is rude and un-Christ like, it is also hostile behavior.

        arguments are best done with courtesy,

        and facts, not attitude…..

        • There aren’t any facts in prophecy, only symbolism, until it is fulfilled of course. Even then it remains an opinion to many people.
          If we stick only to facts you might as well shut down this site.
          Ya know? 🙂
          That was sarcasm with a smile. 😉

          • I am not smiling….

            Sarcasm is more than just words. It’s an unwillingness to love your neighbor.

            You might be interested to know that sarcasm is an ancient Greek word literally meaning, “to tear flesh apart, to cut apart, to bite one’s lips in rage.” There is a lot more to sarcasm than words. Consider Paul’s warning to the Galatians in Galatians 5:13-15 (NIV). Paul discerns against a sarcastic spirit that’s ripping the church apart. “You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”

            In Matthew 5:21-26 (NIV), Jesus takes this same sarcastic spirit to task by saying, “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

            “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

            It is easier to be sarcastic than to show courage in confronting another person.

            It is easier to be sarcastic. It is easier to drive by, take shots, or make little digs. It is easier to bite and devour, to take a person apart verbally, to craft cute nicknames, to assign labels, to speak of others with contempt or ridicule, to talk about and gossip about a person rather than go to that person.

            The alternative is not so easy. It’s harder to show courage, be present, approach a person face to face, be truthful, show a person his fault in love, offer a hand up, seek full understanding, pray with, be reconciled, or settle matters quickly. At the heart of sarcasm is an unwillingness to love your neighbor as yourself. Sarcasm keeps close company with cynicism, pessimism, suspicion, disparagement, skepticism, distrust, doubt, scorn, and disdain.

            Sarcasm never produces positive change in us or in other people. Sarcasm is the coward’s way out. If we truly cared in our heart of hearts, we would offer ourselves to the other. We would not talk about him, not gossip, not assign labels, not avoid, not condemn, and not build a case against him. We’d spend more time building into the relationship and less time building the case against that person!

            • I have nothing but love for my fellow humans. Otherwise I would not be on this site trying to help them understand God’s word. Everyone has their own opinions and most are certain they are right, it is only a question how they express it.
              Do you assume that Don Rickles believes everything he makes up about his audiences? I kid my friends all the time about all sorts of things. They all know I’m kidding, so they laugh rather than getting angry or defensive. That is just the sense of humor God gave me, so talk to Him about it. (See what I did there?)
              So please don’t assume to know what is in my heart based on my humor. If you don’t get it simply ignore me, like I do Janet and Adam. (See, I did it there again.)
              So just know I love you all, apostate or not. Lets not judge each other. That is someone else’s job.
              Thanks and God bless.

              • you have to understand the EFFECTS of sarcasm on others….even if your motive was different.

                the normal use of sarcasm is to harm….
                irregular and less common use is humor…..

                best to avoid “techniques” that create a reaction in the reader that doubts that love you say you have,,,,

                sarcasm is intended to demean others

                • Hi Marianne,

                  Although I do take your point, it seems to me that sarcasm does have it’s place. Remember Elijah?…

                  1Ki 18:27 At noon Elijah started making fun of them: “Pray louder! He is a god! Maybe he is day-dreaming or relieving himself, or perhaps he’s gone off on a trip! Or maybe he’s sleeping, and you’ve got to wake him up!”

                  Sarcasm was used by Elijah to make his point even clearer. However I do agree it can be overdone, and is not always appropriate.

                  • nicetiming

                    I acknowledge that one incident. But wasn’t he also doing this towards those who worshipped Baal, who sacrificed their children to their pagan god? The very god who inspired Jezebel to try to kill Elijah.

                    Wouldn’t a bit of “biting” be appropriate here?

                    We are believers who are debating scripture, not just for fun, but to make ourselves ready to present the gospel to a lost world.

                    why bite us?

                    • Yes, Elijah was going to KILL the prophets of Baal after that, so he probably thought not hurting their FEELINGS was of lesser priority.

                      We positively don’t want to kill anyone, but when we believe something is correct, then we are using a little of that same Elijah spirit — to kill off the opposing arguments — not the opposing people.

                      I think that’s not always wrong, but would be best tempered with some of what you’ve said also.

                    • it is just an issue of balance…..not going too far in one direction with “humor”

              • James,
                It’s not just sarcasm. You are condescending, you call people idiots, you imply that you know you mind of God, while the rest of us poor creatures just don’ t get it, you call people who love God apostate. You are arrogant and self-righteous. We don’t have to assume to know what’s in your heart. It’s written for all to see.
                But in spite of it, we love you anyway.

                You use logical extrapolation, do you? If you know anything about extrapolating, if your original point is just a tiny bit wrong, extrapolating results is a conclusion that is miles from the truth.

          • What does that mean, there are no facts in prophecy, only symbolism?

  248. James
    In response to your comment “what about the seventh day do you not understand?” I will reply with what about entering His rest do you not understand? When we enter his rest, we fulfill the fourth commandment to remember the seventh day and keep it Holy. And every day is Holy unto the Lord.

  249. James, sorry I called you arrogant and self-righteous. I think you do need to be more humble and stop with the attitude of superiority. If you think you have it all figured out I think you’re going to be unpleasantly surprised. Our God is a God of surprises. God’s thoughts are so high above ours that it is unimaginable.
    None of us have the truth, the whole true, and nothing but the truth. No, not even you. We are all learning. Those who believe they know it all are unable to learn.
    You ruin the enjoyment of discussion and debate with your inability to admit the faults and inadequacies in your theory. You put everyone on the defense and use deceitful debate tactics. It reminds me of a presidential debate.
    Are you unable to see the holes in your logic? Is it that important for you to be right?

    • Todd,
      No need to apologize to me, I (unlike some others) don’t even take personal attacks seriously. Remember, Jesus said in the end days true believers would be hated, just as He was in his day, so I’m actually expecting people to think I’m nuts. If I was in the majority I’d be on the wrong side of “the whole world follows the beast” prediction.
      We a re all warriors for Christ here, right or wrong it is our duty to get our points across however we can. Nothing wrong with a lively debate. Has anyone here seen the movie “Lincoln” yet? You’d think abolishing slavery would be a slam-dunk, no debate needed, but that is not how it went down.
      So we are in a similar situation today, and the gloves are on. Hey, even baseball players trash talk, it‘s part of the game.
      So don’t worry about hurting my feelings, I’ve got a pretty tough skin. In fact the more I’m hated the closer to God I feel.
      Shouldn’t we all feel that way?
      Praise Jesus and His holy word.

  250. todd
    james is stubborn. thats why I like to discuss with him. Todd do you still beleive that God will turn muslims to God in future? If you do I will open my Bible and prove your wrong.

  251. Adam, this is just one verse of many:

    Although there are dark days ahead for Egypt and Assyria they will eventually turn back to the Lord and enter into a time of blessing.

    18. In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
    19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
    20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
    21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it].
    22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal [it]: and they shall return [even] to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
    23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
    24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, [even] a blessing in the midst of the land:
    25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed [be] Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.

    Egypt and Assyria will enter a day of great blessing. However, that will not occur until after the Lord Jesus returns. Before that time Egypt and Assyria must go through very troubled days which lie ahead in the near future…

    • Todd
      Regarding Egypt. It is a message to the christians. 10 % of egypt is Christians. I am one of the persons who are baptized in the Coptic Egyptian Church.

      First of all I want to refer to Matt 13:36-42 tells us that Jesus will return and fire up what satan has planted not turn them to God.

      NT also tells us that Jesus will return and establish Israels 12 tribes. Muslims will not leave over land to Israel.

      You refer to Isa so I will do the same

      Isa 15-16 tells us God will destroy Moab = Jordan = Muslims

      Isa 17 tells us God will destroy Damascus= Muslims

      Isa 18-19 God will punish Egypt = muslims

      And the best. Gaza will be pasture ground for animals in future. The bible doesn´t say Gaza will belong to God in future. They will be wiped off from earth with fire and brimstones.

      Muslims days on earth starts to run out.

  252. nicetiming,
    Great reference about Elijah and the Baal worshippers. Turns out I’m talking about the same thing, being the “Mystery Babylon” religion of Revelation I’ve been warning people about on this site. Only this time God will not destroy the false worshippers with lightning bolts but instead He will afflict them with seven plagues. It is all about getting His people to understand His will and follow His laws.
    I am here trying to warn people of the mark of the beast and you are debating my writing style and sense of humor? That is a bit short-sighted I would say. What’s next, grammar and spelling? Lets stay on topic and not sweat the small sh**, as we used to say in the Navy.
    As for calling people idiots, I only refer to certain people on YouTube who post lies in an attempt to put fear into the mind of the uninformed public, many of them for financial gain by selling books and survival gear. In these cases I would prefer a much stronger term, so I’m doing them a favor by using the word idiot. But I’ve never called anyone here an idiot. There is a big difference between someone who has been fooled by Satan and is in an apostate church, and Satan himself. I would never call anyone Satan just because they follow some of his pagan ways.
    Satan needs to be destroyed, but his unwitting followers need to be re-taught. Same is true of the YouTube idiots.
    I love everyone on this site for their dedication to the Word and no one should ever take my jokes personally.
    So there you go.

    • people here are not Baal worshippers….so why use the same method ?

      as you say, we are all dedicated to the Word

    • James,
      We have argued from the Word of God, not from the word of youtube idiots as you call them. There is not one Youtube video in any of these debates we have had over the past couple of days, yet you insist on the fact that we use you tube to base our theology on. That is a false accusation. A lie.

      Your theory that sunday worship is the Mark of the beast holds no water with regard to the Word of God. Your Belief in an old earth shows your lack of faith in a living God who can act on his creation. Your denial of a worldwide flood denies the existence of the wrath of God against the wicked. Your denial of eternal life, and eternal punishment denies the eternal nature of God, who was and is, and is to come. What more do you want me to say? Or perhaps you need to hear it fom a talking donkey. Science is one of these, and in particular the kind of science that tries to explain the hand of God on his creation away with time. This is the stronghold. “everything can be explained away given enough time”.AKA deism.

      Legalism is another one of those strongholds. This is the denial of the power of the cross to transform the lives of people. The denial that Jesus fulfilled the Law, and that through his blood, we are redeemed. And that the Law is written on our hearts. This is a denial of the grace of God. This is a denial of faith alone through grace alone. This is a denial of the sanctifying work of the HolySpirit in our lives. These arguments of the Law are designed to put guilt in our hearts for our inability to live up to the Law, Yet it is through Jesus Blood that this guilt is replaced with Jesus righteousness. Not one of us is saying go out and murder, steal, and commit adultery etc here. That is another false accusation on your part. A lie.

      Supporting scripture:

      “For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have DIVINE POWER to destroy STRONGHOLDS. We destroy arguments and every LOFTY opinion raised against the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD, and take every thought captive to OBEY CHRIST.” (2 corinthians 10: 4,5)

      ” Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the FAITH by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” (1 timothy 4:1-5)

      15″ We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is NOT justified[b] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
      17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”(Galations 2:15-21)

      “5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.” (2 Peter 3:5-7)

      Shalom

    • James,
      Ok, I’ve changed my mind. You are arrogant and self-righteous. Have you listened to yourself? You are comparing Christians who love God with Baal worshippers who performed child sacrifice and other atrocities. You are saying Christians who worship on Sunday are false worshippers, just like worshippers of Baal? I’m not sure it’syour writing style people are debating. I think it’s things like calling us short-sighted, unwitting followers, which is the same as saying we’re all idiots. But they are too kind and loving to actually come out and say it. For me it’s your arrogant, condescending, holier than thou because I worship on Saturday attitude. The Law makes nobody holy. In fact, those who believe they keep it become self-righteous. They keep the letter of the Law, but end up violating the Spirit of the Law. This is what has happened to you. The Law is dangerous and deadly because it brings nothing but condemnation. For this reason, Jesus CANCELLED the written code with it’s rules and regulations that stood against us and condemned us. It is nailed to the cross.
      You can continue to cling to your idol, but we have chosen to cling to Jesus. We live by a new law, the Law of the Spirit.
      Jesus obeyed the Sabbath, and the entire Law because He lived under the Old Covenant. He had to live under it and fulfill so that He could redeemed us from it.
      Now we live under a new Covenant. Love God, and love your neighbor. On these two hang all of the Law AND prophets. John says that the ENTIRE law is fulfilled by loving your neighbor.
      In the Old Covenant the Law was the “sign” that the Israelites were followers of God. In the New Covenant the “sign” that we are followers of Jesus is in loving one another (John 13:34).
      The “seal” of God is the Holy Spirit. We received the Holy Spirit by believing the Gospel. And by believing we enter into our true Sabbath. I pray someday you find that rest.

  253. The Pope leaves as a Pope 28 feb.
    St. Malchy predicted 111 Popes and now we have the 111 th. So 1. Jesus takes over 2 The 112 Pope that was added after and his name is Peter Romanus will take over. 3 St malachys predicition was not 100 % complete.

    • time for the last pope

      • indeed it is. So we shall see who is right St Malachi or Adam the Swede??

        • Dru
          Adam the Syrianic/Aramaic adn Hebrew not Swede. I Just live in sweden. I will soon move from here.

          • That’s a mouthful, How about Adam the S.A.H. or the SHA, which comes out of the mouth a little easier. 🙂

            • You can call me what you want as long as you don´t call me swede.
              To be Swede is to life totally free and I am an Ortodox = Not free.
              You said yourself nothing good comes out of Sweden. I agree with you. Finland has Ortodox Christians 🙂

              • Adamsah (Kind of has a Japanese feel to it.)
                I belong to Jesus. I live in Babylon (USA), so sweden is probably like a better place to be??

    • But Jesus can’t take over until Nibiru arrives. And that won’t happen before the end of March.
      Or ever.

      • James
        I am curious. Where do you get the date end of march for Nibiru?
        My faith says Nibiru will come here soon but I don´t know when.

        • Well Adam, you said that Jesus would be the next pope and the Catholic church expects to elect a new pope by the end of March, before Easter anyway. You also Sid Nibiru would arrive before Jesus takes power, therefore, logic dictates that Nibiru should arrive before the next pope takes office in late March.
          Of course, NONE of this is ever going to happen, but I just wanted to get you on record, so if it actually does happen you can claim divine knowledge and we can worship the ground you walk on.
          If not, you’re still just Krazy. 🙂

          • Jim/James
            There have been times when it took 2 years to choose a Pope so Nibiru can come later and NT tells us that when the fig trees in Isreal blook´m then it is close. Fig trees bloom in april. so nothing will happen before may.

  254. dru
    the only safe place under Gods wrath is Israel or south europe on the country side.

  255. I am at peace, and calm. My comment sounded more “passionate” than it really was. I was just trying to make a point that living by the law inevitably turns a person into a “Pharisee.” Sorry, I will say no more. 🙂

  256. And the best? Does the destruction of these people make you happy?

    I believe that many will turn to the One True God at the end.

    The Bible says that a large multitude, too large to count will be saved from every nation, tongue, tribe and people.

    • November 14, 2012 – during a mid-week bible study in a small, humble church within Nevada, Iowa ~  the Lord came to us with a word of knowledge after sharing specific Scriptures He led us to read.

      That evening (only 6 of us attending this bible study), one woman said the Lord led her to read John 4:34-38, that week and she wanted to share this with us.

      “Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 

      Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? 

      Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest. And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. For in this the saying is true: ‘One sows and another reaps.’

      I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors” (John 4:34-38, NKJV).

      When she finished reading, I knew the message within the verses (“in 4 months”) and said, “I can add to those verses. The Lord gave me Joel 2:21-24 over a year ago.

      “Fear not, O land; Be glad and rejoice, for the Lord has done marvelous things!

      Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field; For the open pastures are springing up, and the tree bears its fruit; The fig tree and the vine yield their strength.

      Be glad then, you children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, and He will cause the rain to come down for you— The former rain, and the latter rain in the first month [Nisan].

      The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil” (Joel 2:21-24, NKJV).

      These words of knowledge tell me ~ there will be a revival coming in 4 months (November 14 to March 14 is 4 months),  which is the first month in the Hebrew calendar [Nisan]. It is the harvest and He is preparing us to take in (John 4:34-38).

      Then, later that evening during prayer time, the Lord entered our room:

      My heart became “big” and “warm”, the room became “full” like I was underwater (scuba diving experience), without the ear pressure; the woman who read from the book of John began speaking in tongues; then, the Pastor interpreted – “the Lord says to prepare strategically.”

      Once the Pastor spoke – the room and my heart returned to normal. I then said to Pastor: “I know what the Lord is telling us” (John and Joel verses included).

      “The foolish will be turning to the wise asking ‘tell me about Jesus!’

      This is not just about a community or region, this is a worldwide revival. Prepare for a great harvest.”

      How much more clear and “direct” can He be?

      Blessings
      Psalm 80:14-19

      • So DJ,
        Are you one of those here who believe that the mid-trib is this March? The Antichrist goes nuts and institutes the mark of the beast etc? What exactly are you now predicting? The Second Coming? The 2 witnesses?
        I am calling for the first seal of Revelation to be opened – the coming to power of the False Prophet (Antichrist to many) when the next pope takes office. Of course he may be in power for many years before turning to the dark side, so we won’t have any proof for a while.
        SO fill us in a bit.

  257. Who will be the next Pope? Peter the Roman?

    • LN
      Here is my guess.
      http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-benedict-xvi-resignation-lead-black-pope-article-1.1260928

      • No sense in guessing at this point, eh?
        The term “Peter the Roman” is a generic title applied to all popes, so Malachy was not giving any sort of hint or prediction on the final pope. All we know he will reign during the tribulation, then Rome will be destroyed.
        Strange he didn’t say Babylon or Islam will be destroyed.
        Guess he agrees with me on this one.

        • Is there a place you can point to to prove St. Malachy stated all Popes are Peter the Roman. I did not read that, or missed it.

          Thanks

          • Malachy didn’t have to say it. It is general knowledge among Catholics. Kinda like we call Elvis “the King” even though he never called himself by that name.

            • Elvis never had a prophcey on the Popes that has been correct. From what I read Malachy has been correct for hundreds of years. What does that mean?

              Well, it means it is not common knowledge Malachy stated all Popes are Peter the Roman. It means, you just write whatever you what the truth to be to fit your strange form of Christianty.

              • You completely misunderstood my example and intent.
                I have studied the prophecy of St. Malachy and written an article on him on another site so I know what I’m talking about.
                The term Peter the Roman was around long before Malachy was born. It was an old title for the pope, like Holy Father, or Pontiff.
                He never named any popes by name, but by characteristics such a job, birth events, or crest etc. So it is unlikely he is predicting that the next pope will be named Peter and that he will be born in Rome.
                But I’m sure that many uninformed people will claim that the prophecy is wrong unless the next pope is actually named Peter, and that it will put to rest all the fears that this will be the final pope if he isn’t named Peter, or takes the name Peter II. While either of these could actually happen, iffin they don’t, I won’t be fooled into thinking the prophecy is broken.
                Will you be one of those people?

        • James

          Listen between 7:58 – 8:05 on this video regarding youtube “idiots”

  258. Regarding Baal worship,
    I know nobody here or anywhere on the planet worships Baal any more, but elements of Baal worship survived all the way thru to the Roman empire – things like Christmas, lent, Easter, yule logs, hot cross buns and Easter eggs. They were then infused into Christianity when Rome combined all the religions of the empire into one and called it “Christianity” and also imposed mandatory Sunday worship. Note the gold sun balls below every cross atop every church in the Vatican. They were put there for the many Roman sun God (Mithras) worshippers.
    And a whole host of other pagan (Baal) practices survive to this day.
    And you can bet your butts that Jesus is not going to let you continue to practice these things when He takes charge of the church.
    So if you still think Babylon is some upcoming Islamic empire, fine. But you better also believe that Baal worship (the Mystery Babylon religion) will also be destroyed, including Sunday worship.
    Otherwise I would like to hear your speech to Jesus calling for the continuation of Sunday worship.
    That would be a hoot!

    • hoot hoot 🙂

    • Jesus will never change sunday worshipping. He arose on a sunday so this is our big day and Jesus will not Change in the faith when he comes back only fire up the ungodly people.

      • english……..

      • Jesus really didn’t rise on Sunday. If Sunday starts at midnight he actually rose when it was still Saturday according to our calendar, maybe just after sunset. See the chart at the bottom of http://danielstimeline.com/charts.htm
        plus the explanation at
        http://danielstimeline.com/crucifixtionweek.htm

        I don’t know about the accuracy of the rest of Daniel’s timeline at this stage, but the chart and explanation would not be all that far wrong.

        • Nice
          Jesus died on the cross on Friday afternoon and they took down the body from the cross before the Sabbath began. Sabbath begins friday evening. Jesus was dead for three days = Friday Saturday Sunday. so Jesus rose on Sunday.

          • Jesus died on Passover, 31 AD which was a Wednesday. The day after Passover is the first day of the feast of unleavened bread, an annual Sabbath day. Two days later was the weekly Sabbath (Saturday). There was no Friday Passovers anytime near 31AD, just check the Jewish calendar.
            Good Friday is just another myth perpetrated by the Catholic church.
            Sorry dude. 😦

            • I’ve been watching and reading all the traffic on this thread for the last week or so. I’d like to weigh in on the Passover thing. James, thanks for backing up the 31 AD year, but if I could add some details here, might help. That Passover actually occured on what we would term Wed/Thursday, with the crucifixion on Thursday afternoon, 3pm. Jesus and his disciples held their last supper the night before, on the correct Passover date, while the Pharisees took their man-made tradition to be the following day. I can offer some proofs for this, astronomically and scripturally.

              We are told that one of the requirements for selecting a passover Lamb was that you are to select it on the 10th day, and take into your house until the 14th day, and examine it. Jesus entered Jerusalem on “the first day of the week”, and with that being a Sunday, the actual crucifixion couldn’t take place until Thursday afternoon to allow for the 4 days of examination. The final examination of Jesus before Pilate of course took place after the last supper, which took place the night before (beginning of Thursday according to the sunset to sunset Hebrew day reckoning). what we call Wed night around 11pm was a partial lunar eclipse, during which time it is said that Jesus appeared to sweat “blood”, and many scholars think this was the reflection of that late-night, blood red moon just before midnight was reflected in the sweat and tears of the Lord. Using Stellarium, the moon’s movements through the signs that evening line up perfectly with the events that followed. Even with a Thursday afternoon crucifixion and the partial day method of reckoning (a part of that day), we still have thursday night, friday night, and part of Saturday night as 3 days and 3 nights. My guess is that since we know He arose long before sun-up on what we would term Sunday, He could have risen any time after 6pm on Saturday evening and not broken the Sabbath rest of Friday night to Saturday night. Going forward, if one counts the 50 days to Pentecost that year, an interesting moon event took place right around 9am on the morning of Pentecost. Just as the 120 in the upper room were being filled with fire and the Holy Spirit, the moon was moving from the MOUTH of Leo the Lion into the HEART of the Lion right around 9am Jerusalem time. Remember, the sun the moon and the stars are all there first and formost for signs and seasons. Just some interesting research I have done into the matter.

              • very interesting.!!!

              • Yes, Passover is always on a full moon. So simple astronomy can tell you which day was the crucifixion.
                I believe Jesus was in the tomb for 3-1/2 days, rising at sunup on Sunday.
                3-1/2 is a biblical number (half of 7) as Jesus preached for 3-1/2 years, the tribulation will last 3-1/2 years and the two witnesses will lie dead in the street for 3-/2 days.
                Even Jonah was in the fish for 3-1/2 days. He went overboard at night and came out in the daytime, so there is an extra half day in there somewhere.
                Just a thought.

      • People who continually break the fourth commandment are ungodly.
        Just ask God in Exodus 20.

        • James
          I agree with you that thoose who break the commandments is ungodly. but who can tell us what they is the real sabbath? Jews have 30 days in a month and so on. we had julian and gregorian calender so everything is changed. we Christians rest on sundays and the important thing is to rest one day in the week. If you follow sabbath as jews does it is impossible to follow their laws. One impossible law to follow is that you are not allowed to carry anything outside during the sabbath. I tried to live like Jew for a while just to see how they live. but when I came home in the sabbath I had to carry the keyes to the house to open the door so I broke the law when I tried to live like them. How do you follow the sabbath?

          • God blessed the 7th day and made it Holy. In all the calendar changes, the day of the week was never changed. The number of the date changed several times, but the days of the week have never been skipped.
            And even if some glitch did happen, God would still expect us to hold the 7th day holy, not the first. Most churches today are intentionally worshipping on the wrong day, a day NOT anointed by God. This Sabbath thing has always been a test of faith, even for the ancient Jews. When you stop following the true Sabbath, you are telling God you don’t respect Him and your love for Him is not real.
            You think like a man, not like God. Once you get into His head you get a whole new outlook on His word.
            The mark of the beast will be the final test for Christians to either follow the traditions of man or to love God and follow His commandments.
            Many will choose poorly. I pray you will not be one of them.

          • Adam, as I said in another thread, there is a difference between stupid oral traditions about the sabbath, and keeping the written law in the Bible. The Bible does not say you can’t carry keys, that is a man made rule that changes the law by ADDING to it. The Pharisees AND the Catholic church both have changed what the law actually says, but in different ways. Catholics change the law by changing the day of rest to a DIFFERENT DAY – Sunday. Pharisees change the law by making stupid rules about how to keep the sabbath. Both groups are tools of Satan, trying to change the Sabbath, because Satan knows this is the easiest commandment to trick people with.

            • Bible says you cannot carry a burden on the sabbath

              This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Jer 17:21

            • NICE T
              We Ortodox beleives satan was behind Martin Luther and you are accusing my Church for the same thing. Time will tell whos right.
              Regarding Sabbath. Col 2:16 is my favorite.

              • Hi Adam,

                I just posted this link on another thread, but will post it here in case you miss it. (I am posting it in love. You should watch the whole series, but I’m only posting the last one here in the hope that you will at least watch this one and consider it carefully) …

                • nice t
                  regarding matt 7. when we go to bible schools in middle east we read this group that this false prophet tales about, that it is the protestants and free Churches. I will defend my Church on this and other blogs. No potestant have given prophecy but Catholics have, one of them is st Malachy. to give prophecy is to speak Gods words because only God and thoose who belong to him can talk about future.

  259. […] Dla znudzonych teoriami spiskowymi rodem z nad Wisły proponuję dla rozrywki coś egzotycznego. […]

  260. CTS comment in english
    Bored conspiracy theories straight from the Vistula to suggest something exotic entertainment

  261. Adam,
    Some people are confused about what the “true Sabbath” is. The true Sabbath isn’t a day, it’s a person. Jesus is our true resting place. Just the fact that they think they’ve gotten into God’s head and understand God’s mind and how He thinks, shows that they’re under a powerful delusion. They are puffed up. That’s what following the law does. It makes you think you’re more acceptable to God than the other person because of something you do. It makes you think you love and respect God more than the other person. And that is what self-righteousness is. Pride is a powerful drug that deceives a lot of people.
    They presume to know the hearts and minds of all us who sincerely believe that we are saved by grace, through faith alone, and not by the works of the law. Our love and respect is shown in our trust in His finished work on the cross that set us completely free from a law that comdemned us.
    The Sabbath was a shadow. If they want to follow a shadow that’s fine. But I’m going to follow the One who is casting the shadow.

    • Amen!!

    • We are saved by the grace of God but we will be judged on our works.
      Those who deny the commandments will suffer the wrath of God in the tribulation and at the Great White Throne Judgement.
      You pays your money and you takes your chances.
      Good luck breaking the law, of God no less.

    • hi todd

      Since faith without works is dead, we need to distinguish which works are passed away, and which remain.

      the man made laws connected to the commandments are passed away, and the animal sacrificial system for sin, but the commandments of God still remain. otherwise, we would be all disobedient.

      but you are right in pointing out the spirit of the law and the grace with it. Jesus IS our rest. but because of our love for him, we willingly obey what God has taught.

      • Jesus made a new covenant with the house of Israel. When there is a change or priesthood there is also a change of law. Jesus abolished the law in His flesh. (What is the definition of abolish?) The written code has been cancelled (what is the definition of cancelled?) Jesus gave a new command. Love one another. The law AND the prophets hang on two commands. Love God, love others. John says we must obey God’s commands, and that they are not burdensome. John says those commands are to believe in God’s Son and love others. John said the ENTIRE law is fulfilled in loving others. Because our love for God is shown and proved in our love for others. Jesus said the work of God is to believe on Him.
        The keeping of the Sabbath is never mentioned until the giving of the Mosaic Law. Nor is it ever mentioned in the New Testament. There is NO distinction between moral and ceremonial laws. If there is then why are there moral laws contained in the ceremonial laws. And why is sacrifice considered part of the Law of God (Luke 2:22-24)? The law is the law.

        • then why did Jesus ( Yashua) say he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it?

          • Marianne’
            The Word “Pleroo” translated to fulfil has a meaning of “filling up, or to complete” So to rephrase the verse above, ” He did not come to abolish the Law, but to complete it.” Meaning that the existing Law as given in the Old Covenent was incomplete, Not full etc. What i tell people who bring up this verse to defend the Law is “I would rather believe and obey the complete Law, than the incomplete one.” Jesus completed this law, by his righteousness, and sacrifice on the cross, By being the Lamb without blemish.
            Now regarding the Sabbath, he has become our rest.
            Regarding Murder, He said if you hate your brother you commmit murder in your heart. He fulfilled this with his Love. Regarding adultury, if you lust after the woman, you commit adultury.He overcomes this by making us his bride. Thou shalt not lie is completed by the Spirit of Truth… Thus to complete the Law is to overcome the sins of the heart as well. The problem with the Law, its incompleteness if you will, is that it cannot transform the heart because the original sin was not overcome. But Jesus Overcame!!

            To fulfill the Law, is thus to believe in Jesus. Quite simple, yet quite difficult to attain in its fulness….to be like Christ. Thus I weigh the Law on a scale with the righteousness of Jesus, and the scale tips in favor of Jesus, and his new covenent all the time. If the ten commandments could save you, then there is no need for Jesus whatsoever. Hence the rejection by the pharisees. This is why Jesus said in the same sermon on the mount that you quoted above:

            20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt.5:20)

            The key words there are “righteosness” and “exceeds”

  262. Why is it that the Israelites were forbidden to enter their rest when they were in the wilderness, except two? Was it because they profaned the Sabbath? No. It was because they lacked faith. They saw the obstacles in front of them as “bigger” than Almighty God.

    Why is it that The ten northern tribes fell? Because they Sought help from Egypt, instead of the Almighty God, thereby lacking Faith.

    Why is it that Judah fell, and the temple was destroyed, and they went into captivity? Because they Sought after other gods, instead of Almighty God, thereby putting God to the test. They Lacked Faith.

    The post exile temple on the otherhand, lacked in the grandeur of Solomons temple, But its Foundation far exceeded Solomons temple, because it was built on faith. Jesus was the Cornerstone of this new temple, A living Stone, And the Pharisees Rejected it. Why? because they Lacked faith.

    As Peter puts it in 1 Peter 2:

    2 “So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. 2 Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

    4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:

    “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
    a cornerstone chosen and precious,
    and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

    7 So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

    “The stone that the builders rejected
    has become the cornerstone,”[a]

    8 and

    “A stone of stumbling,
    and a rock of offense.”

    They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do”.

    I believe in the Living Stone. I have faith in his work on the cross. I have rested from my works, and now rely on Jesus alone to save me. This is rest.

    Salvation is BY grace Alone, THROUGH faith alone…NOT BY WORKS lest any man should Boast.

    The Only righteousness I boast about is HIS imputed righteousness. Obviously, some people think this is INSUFFICIENT, and therefore need to Add their own “self righteousness” to that. You are More than welcome to do that. But this is not “Godliness” as described by Paul in his letters to Timothy. Godliness is the result of “Holding to the testimony of Jesus” By Faith. And Obeying his WORD by faith.

    The separating of faith from obedience IS disobedience. Obviously the generation of Jewish people in the wilderness obeyed the Law, But they had no faith, and therefore did not enter HIS resting place.

    To those who have no Faith, these words make no sense whatsoever. To those who Believe in the Sufficiency of Jesus Sacrifice, these words ring true via the Spirit of Truth. The pointing of fingers to the Law is designed to glorify the self. The Pointing of fingers to the cross leads to the glorification of God.

    God bless.

    • Dru,
      I’ m not sure James knows what he believes. First he called us apostate, then ungodly, now it seems that maybe we are saved by our faith, but I’m not sure. I don’t think he realizes that Jesus took upon Himself the wrath of God, ALL of it, on the cross, and that He is the propitiation for our sin. God’s anger and wrath have been appeased. We will never have to bear it. Thank you Jesus! Will will have to give an account, though, for all we’ve done or haven’t done, whether good or bad, but I am confident -no, I am absolutely positive that James will be there right beside us also giving an account of his deeds. (The way he exalts himself, though, I doubt he believes he will.)
      Todd

  263. Reading all of this is silly.
    Read the Word of God the Father through the Spirit. Start with say Galatians and figure it out.
    I personally will stick to, and hold tight to only Yeshua as the Rock of my foundation, and stay under Grace rather than be under the law.

    Praise be unto Yeshua HaMashiach who “REDEEMED” us, (Galatians 3:13. the transliterated “exagorazō”, [by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom, buy off]) from the CURSE, (the transliterated “katara”, [an execration, imprecation, curse] of the law.

    By Faith we received the Spirit not by the law.
    Amen.

  264. I wonder why people who love God hate his law so much. they should enjoy obeying him.

    • “YES” I love God the Father, but I don’t hate His law….. However, I would much rather be with Yeshua and be under Grace and Liberty than under a heavy yoke.
      I obey God’s law and Yeshua’s law through the Spirit, rather than the Letter.

      “But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.” Romans 7:6. KJV.

      “[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: “THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.” For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:1-9. KJV.

      The New Testament beats this topic to death.

      I will quote Paul, (in his epistle to the Galatians) for we have gone over this topic before and it is tiring.

      “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Galatians 1:6-12. KJV.

      Paul received his testimony when he was caught up to the third heaven from Yeshua Himself. His conversion from persecuting those of “the Way” to “preaching the Gospel”, and being willing to die for the Lord is proof enough for me, that his conversion was legitimate.
      Believe what he has to say or not. The Lord Yeshua is the Judge that all will stand before, and He will decide all of our fate.

      Be Blessed in the Rock of our Foundation, relying on Him and Him alone. Praise Yeshua the KING of kings and LORD of lords.
      Amen

      • under grace and love, obedience is easy

        the yoke becomes easy

        john 14:15

        “If you love me, keep my commandments”

        • Yep, and that would be a part of the same recorded conversation where Yeshua had just stated approximately one or two minutes previously …..

          “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:34,35. KJV.

          So if He stated “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”, (John 14:15.) just after He had said to you “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” (John 13:34,35.), what do you think that He is talking about??? Did He arbitrarily change the subject to the law???

          Be Blessed in Yeshua and nothing else.
          He is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Him. Notice that He didn’t say anything regarding the law there.
          Amen.

          • you are referring to the previous chapter…..he said it was a new commandment….he did not say it replaced the others…..

            keeping the commandments is a sign that we love God, and this goes back to Deuteronomy…..ch 5, 7, 11, 19, 30 etc

            ex

            Deu 11:1 ¶ Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always

            ALSO, it is not that “new” to love one another…

            Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.


            Jesus was pointing out that the basis of the 10 commandments reflected the spirit of love toward god and man.

            • Marianne,

              You say above, “You are referring to the previous chapter….” Yep I am, So What? It is still the same conversation whether the translators spilt it in two by inserting a new chapter number or not.

              You say above, “He did not say it replaced the others…..” Maybe not right there, but He did say that it fulfilled it all in Matthew 22:40.”

              You also say, “It is not that new to love one another…” No it’s not! Hence John in 1 John 2:7. stating the same.
              “Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.”

              And though it isn’t in the same chapter per se, it certainly is within the same epistle and pertinent to the context, John says again, “For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.” 1 John 3:11.

              I try my very best to be a disciple of Yeshua and love others as best as I can. Love also fulfills the law. If someone wishes to follow the law they are going backwards, and will fall from grace. Not my Words.

              I’m done.
              Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod.

              • yes. love fulfills the law, but it does not replace it.

                if you love God, you will obey him.

                the love makes it possible, where before it was difficult

                obeying god is not going backwards….it is part of the fulfillment

                you be blessed too 🙂

          • Marianne, and others
            7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

            13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother (1 John 4:7-21)

            “God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us” Think about that.

            “perfected Love” casts out fear of punishment. Think about that.

            10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.( matt. 24:10-14) Think about that in relation to the above from 1 John.

            Lest the legalist point to the word translated as lawlessness above, That word Anomia is the word that we Get the concept of “anomie from in Sociology. This is what occurs when we enter a time of deep distress and the Norms of the world system which keep people in line (obedient) are compromised to the point of exposing the heart of those people. If you think of a catastrophe such as Katrina, or the Holocaust,Wars, famines, etc. where people become animals (beasts). Can we Love one another in such a time?? Brace yourself, because that is what is headed our way soon. This will quickly separate the wheat and the tares. This is when our testimony casts satan down to earth.

            This is greater than the Law, it is the completed in us!

  265. James,

    You asked, “What am I predicting?”

    What did Jesus tell us after reading John 4:34-38 and Joel 2:21-24?

    “Prepare strategically”.

    James – 3 people were involved with this experience –not one individual (me) or just an “emotional pastor” or just an “emotional woman”.

    I do not hang out, fellowship weekly, or really know these people at all. This was my 3rd, maybe 4th bible study with them. We didn’t share our eschatology studies, end times news or deeply held “rapture” belief paradigms. I’ve been back only once since the Lord came to us that evening.

    Therefore, what I’ve experienced and comprehend is totality what He has given me. Paul wrote what I am beginning to comprehend – “I know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1st Corinthians 2:2).

    What… am I…predicting?

    The Lord told us to prepare strategically for a great harvest 4 months from that evening – November 14, 2012. That is the month of Nisan (Joel 2:21-24). Read those verses in Joel, again.

    Here are indicators that He shared/taught me since 2010, which I’ve posted here (thank you Marianne). You know these posts and enjoy making comments to these and all (everyone’s).

    “The First Four Seals of Revelation”
    “The Signs in the Heavens”
    “Lost” Ark? God Forbid!

    I found “Daniel’s timeline” here on Heaven Awaits in December 2011, which matched the indicators (Fig tree lesson, Jubilee, Revelation 12:1-5, Seals 1-30. Please, watch it again with eyes wide open, closing your eyes.

    What am I predicting from all of the above given me?

    Get ready “Body of Christ” for “Great Testing” and “prepare strategically”.

    Pre-Trib rapture was a tail to distract His Church from preparing their lamps: trimming it (read/study the complete Word, not just “rapture” and end times Scriptures), filling our souls with oil (Holy Spirit, comprehending the Kingdom) and remaining vigilant by attending to the Body and Christ as He is the Head of that Body. We’ve been distracted far too long by “false teaching” from those teaching what false teaching is and is not (several are wolves in sheep’s clothing too). Distracted by end time news and Sunday only milk toast lessons – the time of Great Testing begins.

    Firmly believing and humbly presenting with fear of the LORD (“Woe to those pregnant and nursing), it is time to strategically prepare for the foolish rushing/seeking oil from the wise and to “overcome” and “endure” until He comes for His bride as He tells us in Revelation chapters 2 and 3.

    He said, “Prepare strategically”.

    After He came into our presence on November 14, 2012 ~ He led me to comprehend “The Blood of the Lamb” as you read in “’Lost’ Ark? God Forbid!”

    “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death” (Revelation 12:11).

    He led me to write, send and Marianne to post within minutes “Prayer over a House”. Please read it and apply as the Spirit leads you (strategically).

    He led me to comprehend “Wormwood” as a Demonic Spirit. Not a “star” but a demonic force that will attack (spiritual warfare) those holding bitterness. Please, skip the “star” interpretations, proceeding directly to the prayer at the end of the post.

    When the Ark comes forth within the next few weeks ~ virgins (foolish and wise), may begin rubbing eyes and smelling the coffee. The cry (midnight alarm), will be heard soon thereafter.

    Barry just happens to be in Jerusalem the day after winter and before Sabbath (March 20-21). Hint.

    James – read James (you didn’t write this), chapter 5:7-11.

    Blessings
    Isaiah 65
    Psalm 27-29
    Psalm 80

    • DJ.

      A pre-tribulation Gathering is NOT a false teaching. It is based upon a plethora of both Old Testament shadow events and New Testament Scripture.
      Simply because you believe that you happen to know “everything” that Father God has planned over the next little while, does not make it so.
      Leave what is God’s plan, for Him to competently complete.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua.

  266. From Hebrew for Christians: 

    “Since the word Torah itself means “instruction” or “direction” about how to live rightly before God and man, it should not be surprising to see how it can change in relation to the covenants the God has established with mankind and with Israel.  If one divine agreement is made but later is transcended, for example, then the terms of the later agreement (i.e., the instructions about how to be rightly related to God in light of that agreement) will likewise change. This is admitted, for example, in the case of the additional laws given to Israel in the covenant that Moses mediated with God at Mount Sinai, which was later ratified by the “sprinkling of blood” and the eating of the covenant meal by the 70 elders. Surely these added laws given to the nation went beyond those given to Noah, and yet they are both considered divine instructions about how to be rightly related to God.”

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Olam_Hatorah/olam_hatorah.html

    Blessings
    Psalm 80

    • DJ.

      Not sure about your point above?

      John believes that if you still feel that it is necessary to follow the law, then there is the possibility that you are not saved, or at the very least, have quenched the Spirit.
      He also believes in a Gathering or Rapture too.

  267. Simple logic should tell us whether the Ten Commandments are still in effect.
    First of all you must ask yourself why God created these ten laws (forget the dietary laws etc, these are different and in stone) in the first place. Were they just to test His people to see if they would obey Him? Or are they guidelines for life, like a modern constitution which Jesus will enforce during His millenial reign?
    Well, all but one tell you what NOT to do – don’t lie, cheat, steal, murder etc, plus don’t worship other God’s, make graven images or take the Lords name in vain. These should make perfect sense to most people. Most governments have similar laws to the last 6 commandments. So it makes no sense to say God doesn’t care if you murder or lie or steal. Nobody here would claim that it wouldn’t offend God if we murdered say 1000 women and children. It sounds ridiculous to even make such a statement.
    Yet some people continue to claim that God has rescinded these laws, and that it is OK to break any commandment as long as we profess that Jesus is the son of God.
    So can we worship the Antichrist without offending God now? Oh no, that’s going too far. The mark of the beast has to be SOMETHING that offends God, so then what?
    Its funny that there is only one commandment where God tells us what to DO, rather than NOT DO. And it is the only one that begins with the word “Remember” as if God knew that people would someday forget it completely.
    Yet the vast majority of modern christians think that they can ignore the commandments and that the church has the power to alter or delete them at will. It is no wonder that God will soon release His wrath on the people of the earth. His own people to be specific.
    So enjoy your commandment-breaking lifestyle while you can because when Christ rules the earth, he will bring His constitution with Him, and they will be written on tablets of stone.

  268. Yes, God had no reason to rescind the law, but the sabbath law especially, because the sabbath tests your “rubber meets the road” type of willingness to obey God BEYOND man’s laws…

    If you understand that the Father and Jesus are in PERFECT UNITY, does it make any sense to think God would be against his OWN sabbath law?

    Why would God act like some Cheshire cat, making a law about the sabbath in the Old Testament, and then irrationally doing away with it in the New, as if he had made a mistake in the Old?

    He DIDN’T do AWAY with it, he clarified it and BLESSES those who STILL keep it — Rev. 22:7 & 14.

    • I Left this post up there for You and James too. It answers all your concerns regarding the Law. This is the Law fulfilled. As I have said over and over Again, when I weigh the fulfilled Law against the one written in stone, Jesus’ righteousness shines brighter. That law written in stone, has become astone of stumbling. What was holy once is not holy now in comparison to Jesus. Like I said, you are welcome to worship on saturday if you wish, but this does not make you more holy than anyone else. Pride is the main tool of Satan, and that is what you are doing by trying to make everyone “guilty”. But we all have sinned. I am no different than a murderer. All sin is grievous, But GOD IS LOVE.

      7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

      13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother (1 John 4:7-21)

      “God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us” Think about that.

      “perfected Love” casts out fear of punishment. Think about that.

      10 And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.( matt. 24:10-14) Think about that in relation to the above from 1 John.

      Lest the legalist point to the word translated as lawlessness above, That word Anomia is the word that we Get the concept of “anomie from in Sociology. This is what occurs when we enter a time of deep distress and the Norms of the world system which keep people in line (obedient) are compromised to the point of exposing the heart of those people. If you think of a catastrophe such as Katrina, or the Holocaust,Wars, famines, etc. where people become animals (beasts). Can we Love one another in such a time?? Brace yourself, because that is what is headed our way soon. This will quickly separate the wheat and the tares. This is when our testimony casts satan down to earth.

      This is greater than the Law, it is the completed Law in us!

      • the “lawlessness” in Matt 24:12 refers to the being without the Law, ie the Torah…that people would be without Torah, either through ignorance or intentional violation

        • Marianne,
          I asked you to think about the following in the comment above: How is the Love of God PERFECTED IN US? This is one of the most profound mysteries in the new testament. If, and when you answer this, then you will see what i am talking about with regard to “Lawlessness”. This is a hard question, and requires some thought. Simply put though, In the abscence of Love, we have Lawlessness. Look at DJ’s comment below. Do you see Love there, or Hatred? I agree that accepted asked a prodding question, which elicited the response. But perfect love, as Jesus spoke of, Turns the other cheek. (Matthew 5:39). Watch that video above which I posted. Now Put this in terms of the community of Believers, both wheat and tares. Who is it that is always being “scoffed”?

          WE fight not against flesh and blood. Our belief is in the “Unseen”. The false prophets will com with signs and wonders to behold. I would rather that none fall for this deception. The reaction of a proud heart to correction is defensiveness and resentment.

          • dru

            I do not look for hate or love in people’s comments. I think all here are sincere, but have strong opinions.

            It is best that people walk in the spirit , and not the flesh.

            when this happens, there will be less division, more unity, and less judgments.

            none of us are superior to any of the others. we should all be humble before God and man.

            god loves a humble and contrite spirit…..and we should strive to be this way.

            • I agree Marianne,
              Strong opinions are one thing. I am as stubborn as they come. But as Paul reminds us, without Love it is worthless.
              Note verses 8 onward.1 Cor. 13

              13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, I gain nothing.

              4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;[b] 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

              8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

              13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

              The sooner we all realize that we “know in part”, and “prophecy in part”, The sooner we will have unity.

              Be Blessed

              • I think all those who debate should focus on the part of the love definition “patient and kind” and “It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable”

                I think people get a little cranky at times.

                we can all improve in this area.

                be blessed

    • nicetimingcom,

      Amen.

      “He answered and said to them (Pharisees and scribes), “Well did Isaiah prophesy of hypocrites, as it is written:

      ‘This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in
      vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

      “For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men – the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do” (Mark 7:6-9, NKJV).

      One interpretation: the commandments remain; He fulfilled the law as The Lamb of God, slain for the sins of the world.

      I receive a blessing every time I read all those verses in Psalm 119. Powerful message within this Psalm about His commandments.

      You know, He is the Word made flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1-17). Proverbs 3 – holds a tremendous “revelation” of the Word.

      Blessings
      Psalm 25:1-2

  269. Benedict departs on February 28 at 8 pm local time and then become Cardinal Tarcisio Pietro (Peter in English) Evasio Bertone was born in Romano Canavese, Piedmont, who is the current Secretary of the Vatican, the Pope appointed to the Holy Roman Church on April 4 2007th

    During the period known as “sede Vacante” when there is no incumbent Pope Bertone will be invited as Camerlengo to serve as deputy pope of the Roman Catholic Church. He will be responsible to the College of Cardinals in the next papal conclave in the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope.

    Benedict has chosen his successor?
    Benedict XVI has made a decision which states that Bertone could be, or at least once to be his choice for successor, according to the book’s author.

    Working together with Bertone, Benedict seemed to do in Bertone’s favor January 6, 2012, when he named 22 new cardinals. Most are Europeans, mostly Italians, with already significant nyckelpoistioner the Vatican.

    As a result of the Europeans present number is over half of all the cardinal electors, 67 of 125. Almost a quarter of all voters in the conclave will be Italians.

    “When he appointed these new cardinals,” says Horn, “Benedict seemed to put his definitive stamp on an Italian successor by appointing the 22 new cardinals, those who may be asked to provide Bertone, the so-called Apostolic See of St. Peter.”

    The author Tom Horn says that the idea was Benedict not alone.
    Most Vatikanexperterna believe that the large number of Italian appointments were under the influence of Bertone, said Horn.

    Sources in Rome near the Vatican suggested earlier that Benedict may have resigned partly because he wanted to, even if it was indirectly, influence the choice of his successor.

    The sources further claim that by selecting “Benedict” as his papal name tried to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, though he was not a priest of Benedictinerorden, identify their knowledge with Pope Malachy’s prohecy penultimate pope by the epithet ‘Gloria Olivae’, which was associated with Benedictinerordens tradition with olives.

    By increasing the College of Cardinals elevated an Italian cardinal as Pope Pope Benedict XVI could help to meet Malachy’s prophecy, making Cardinal Bertone – “Peter Romanus” because of one of his first name and his birthplace – the “last pope” .

    On Tuesday, said Vatican spokesman Federico Lombardi reporters at a briefing in the Vatican that Pope Benedict XVI would not have any say in the choice of his successor, and told reporters that the pope “certainly certainly not going to say anything about the process of the election” of his successor. Benedict “will not interfere in any way,” insisted Lombardi.

    In January 2010, when Bertone was 75, the retirement age for kurians cardinals, he left a letter of resignation to the pope. Benedict was adamant that he needed Bertone, he stayed as the Vatican’s head of state, because he wanted to keep “his precious partner,” which was reported by Andrea Tornielli in the Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    Benedict has steadfastly supported Bertone through a series of crises that challenged Bertone integrity and honesty, including a money laundering scandal that involved the Vatican Bank, formerly known as the Institute for Works of Religion, or IOR .. The scandal led to the dismissal of the bank’s leaders, Gotti Tedeschi, a highly respected Italian economist and banker, as Paolo Gabriele, the pope’s butler, who was prosecuted for having confiscated and copied more than 1000 pages sensitive Vatican over six years, which he released to a Italian journalist for publishing.

    Their task is to control the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith gave the Cardinals Ratzinger and Bertone for the first time to the public, “The Third Secret of Fatima” at a press conference on 26 June 2000.

    In 2007 Bertone published a book, “The Last Secret of Fatima,” with a foreword written by Benedict XVI, who defended the publicly released the text “Third Secret” that the whole secret, and argued that the publication of the text was the Catholic Church nothing against.

    “The Third Secret of Fatima” contains a very controversial vision of the last days of an assassination attempt on a future pope prompted by moral corruption and lack of faith among the clergy.

    The current controversy began when the Italian journalist and TV personality Antonio Socci and the American lawyer Christopher Ferrara began publishing the claim that the Vatican refused to publish the second part of the “Third Secret” that contained the words of the Virgin revealed to Fatima’s children.

    Socci and Ferrara argues that the hidden text predicts disaster for the Catholic Church and the world that involves the ultimate future punishment from God, which means that Jesus Christ will return to earth for doomsday.

    Malachy’s predictions
    St. Malachy, an Irish saint and archbishop of Armagh, who lived from 1094 to 1l48, attributed to a vision of the last 112 Popes with a prophetic list. He names with descriptive epithets every pope from Celestine II, who was pope from 1143-1144 to the present day.

    Malachy described the last Pope as “Petrus Romanus” or “Peter The Roman” with the words: “In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church, the Roman Peter to rule, who will lead his flock through many tribulations, after which the seven hills city will be destroyed and the dreaded Judge will judge the people. ”

    Malachy gave his manuscript to Innocent II, born Gregorio Papareschi, who was pope from 1130 to 1143. Innocent placed the manuscript in the Vatican archives, where the story was unknown until its discovery 1590th

    Through the past 900 years, various critics questioned the authenticity and accuracy of St. Malachy’s prophecy.

    In a modern version, from 1969, by Malachy prophecies writes Archbishop HE Cardinale, the papal envoy to Belgium and Luxembourg, “it’s fair to say that the vast majority of Malachy’s predictions about the popes are incredibly accurate – and always remembering that he only provides a minimum of information.”

  270. Peter Romanus?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=–ICtxeRKWs

  271. To All,

    As in most of the discussions, the topic has turned to the law vs grace quandary. What was given by the Father in the beginning, with law and grace coexisting in perfect harmony, has become an either or mandate in Christian doctrine, predicated on the word of one man, Paul. No one can provide another witness though they have tried. I offer the following as the ongoing scenario the Father has set in place to bring us full circle to the truth of what He is seeking to accomplish in us
    .
    We all know the story of the Samaritan woman at the well. How Messiah came by and asked the woman for a drink and ended up spending two days (2000 years) with the Gentile Christian Church, while the Jews were to be sent into exile in the nations for that same 2000 year period. Most of us know these things, so I am not going to go over it all again. But there is a complete picture that began in this story that runs through until the second coming of Messiah.

    John 4 21-24
    21 Yeshua said, “Lady, believe me, the time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Yerushalayim. 22 You people don’t know what you are worshipping; we worship what we do know, because salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the time is coming — indeed, it’s here now — when the true worshippers will worship the Father spiritually and truly, for these are the kind of people the Father wants worshipping him. 24 God is spirit; and worshippers must worship him spiritually and truly.”

    Messiah said this in part, knowing that the Jews and the believer’s in Messiah would be scattered to the nations, while the gift of salvation and the giving of Ruach HaKodesh were given to man, taking Yerushalayim (the Jews) basically out of the picture for 2 days (2000 years). John 4 basically tells of Messiah’s first coming as Yosef, the suffering servant, gathering to himself a people that would be mingled with the nations and their pagan forms of worship (lawlessness), while the Jews were scattered among the nations in the diaspora, yet many staying set-apart in the ways of Yah to this day, yet rejecting Messiah. But this is only half of the story.

    For at least 1700 years the assembly of Messiah has been, for the most part, instructed out of the Renewed Covenant scriptures (the New Testament), basically undoing the foundation of the Torah, Prophets, and history that the B’rit Hadasha was based on, which allowed for the continuation of a divided kingdom initiated by Jereboam and Rheoboam.

    The completion to the parable of the Woman at the well is found in Luke 9:51-56.
    Luke 9:51-56
    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    51 As the time approached for him to be taken up into heaven, he made his decision to set out for Yerushalayim. 52 He sent messengers ahead of him, who went and entered a village in Shomron to make preparations for him. 53 However, the people there would not let him stay, because his destination was Yerushalayim. 54 When the talmidim Ya‘akov and Yochanan saw this, they said, “Sir, do you want us to call down fire from heaven to destroy them?”[a] 55 But he turned and rebuked them.[b] 56 And they went on to another village. (He passed them by-emphasis mine)

    This encounter took place after Messiah had spent 2 days-2000 years with the Samaritans. Even as Messiah “needed” to go through Samaria in John 4, in Luke 9 He made a “decision” to go to Yerushalayim (another rendering is-“He hardened or set his face to go to Yerushalayim”). This is speaking of Messiah’s second coming as King, gathering and reuniting Ephraim and Yahudah in eretz Ysrael (though the gathering will take place more at the very end). This actually began around the year 1948 when Israel became a nation again. The “time of the gentiles” began when the Jews were scattered to the nations and came to an end when Israel was gathered back to their homeland, to bring the restoration of His people to Him and to His ways (1967 was the actual time when the Jews regained control of Yerushalayim). Yahudah began receiving their Messiah while Ephraim began to receive the instructions of Yah, coming together as one new man in Messiah in just the past 66 years.

    Messiah sent ahead His messengers (witnesses) to the Samaritans (Ephraim-Christian Church) to prepare His way, but they rejected their word because of His “need” to go to Yerushalayim instead of going to Mt Gerizim. And so it is today. The vast majority of the Christian Church (Ephraim) is still bound up in their paganism, rejecting the ways of Yah, although more and more are coming to the knowledge of what the Father is doing in these last days, to bring us back to Him and to His ways, both Yahuda and Ephraim.

    I have read in the past, that when Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt, they left a mixed group, but that not every Hebrew left Egypt. Some were content to stay in Egypt rather than face the harshness of the wilderness; the question is will it be the same with the Christian Church and the Jews of today? When it comes time to enter the wilderness, will the Christian Church be willing to leave the comfort of “our” Egypt, or will many reject what Yah is doing in these last days, even as the Samaritans did and basically are still doing now, for the simple fact that Messiah is calling to us from Yerushalayim-Israel, instead of from the Christian Church?

    The following was written by an orthodox Jew:

    {‘In Egypt eighty per cent perished during the Plague of Darkness because they ” did not wish to depart from Egypt” [Rashi on Exodus 10:22]. The stress in Biblical Egypt was enormous. So strong was the pull of the surrounding culture that a huge percentage of the Children of Israel were unable to extricate themselves from its influence! This is a message for our contemporary world!

    Today, people are under enormous strain. You see it in hair-trigger tempers. You see it in aggressive driving. You see it in lack of proper behavior, as people rush to put themselves first. You see it in desperate attempts to acquire money. You see it in lavish expenditures on vacations and luxuries, attempts to find peace in a world in which there is no peace!

    “Moshe spoke to the Children of Israel, but they did not heed him because of shortness of breath…” [Exodus 6:9]. In Egypt, the stress was so great that many of the Children of Israel did not listen to the voice which would have saved them if they had listened. The same danger exists today. We are so panicked that we are not behaving rationally. If we hold on to the unreality of the surrounding culture, G-d forbid, that “support” will break like a flimsy reed and we will perish when that culture goes under!’}

    This man believes Messiah is coming, but for the first time. Messiah is and has been reaping the “early fruit” now, which includes many who are seeing what Messiah is doing in both the Jews and Christians. Before 1948, you would have been hard pressed to find a Messianic Jew, much less a Messianic Gentile. Messiah is and has been betrothed to Ephraim (the Christian Church) for 2 days now. His focus is now on Israel to bring the Jews to their Messiah and the Christian Church into obedience to His Word. Yah has allowed both Jew and Gentile to grow as wheat among the tares, but the time of harvest is at hand. Messiah will have a people who hold the testimony of Yahshua and keeps his commandments;

    Revelation 12 17 The dragon was infuriated over the woman and went off to fight the rest of her children, those who obey God’s commands and bear witness to Yeshua.

    Luke 12:54 Having seized him, they led him away and brought him into the house of the cohen hagadol. Kefa followed at a distance; 55 but when they had lit a fire in the middle of the courtyard and sat down together, Kefa joined them. 56 One of the servant girls saw him sitting in the light of the fire, stared at him and said, “This man also was with him.” 57 But he denied it: “Lady, I don’t even know him.” 58 A little later, someone else saw him and said, “You’re one of them too”; but Kefa said, “Man, I am not!” 59 About an hour later, another man asserted emphatically, “There can be no doubt that this fellow was with him, because he too is from the Galil!” 60 But Kefa said, “Man, I don’t know what you’re talking about!” And instantly, while he was still speaking, a rooster crowed. 61 The Lord turned and looked straight at Kefa; and Kefa remembered what the Lord had said, “Before the rooster crows today, you will deny me three times.” 62 And he went outside and cried bitterly.

    This incident of Peter’s denial of Messiah is of greater importance than just Peter’s struggle. Peter is representative of Israel, in these scriptures. Peter (Israel) revealed through revelation that Yahshua was the Messiah, but it was also Peter (Israel) that rejected Him for 2000 years=2 days=2 times. The third time-the third day when Peter (Israel) rejected Him, Messiah “turned” to Peter (Israel) and looked straight at him and Peter (Israel) wept bitterly, realizing what he Peter (Israel) had done in denying Yah’s salvation=Yahshua.

    John 21;15 After breakfast, Yeshua said to Shim‘on Kefa, “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan, do you love me more than these?” He replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I’m your friend.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan, do you love me?” He replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I’m your friend.” He said to him, “Shepherd my sheep.” 17 The third time he said to him, “Shim‘on Bar-Yochanan, are you my friend?” Shim‘on was hurt that he questioned him a third time: “Are you my friend?” So he replied, “Lord, you know everything! You know I’m your friend!” Yeshua said to him, “Feed my sheep!

    The restoration of Peter (Israel) is as follows: First, Yahshua said to Peter (Israel) Feed my lambs. This is what Peter (Israel) did with the “fledgling-assemly”=lambs, he fed (taught) the lambs-the new assembly of believers. The second time Messiah said “Shepherd my sheep” which Peter did, and Israel also did (while in the diaspora) through the Hebrew and Aramaic scriptures given to the assembly to keep them safe and on the right path (even though the assembly, made up of gentile believer’s in Messiah, in time, chose in large part to throw off many of the things that were handed down to them). The third time Messiah said to Peter (Israel) “Feed my sheep”, the mature (due to age and understanding) assembly=the end time assembly, Peter (Israel) is teaching (Feeding) the assembly to restore it to its original Birthright, that it received in the beginning from Messiah. Everything was birthed through Israel and will culminate (the restoration of all things) through Israel. Most Christians see Yerushalayim and Israel as an oddity, a place that had its day in the sun, but is now relegated to the dust bin of history, with no relevance to our day and time, since Messiah has already come and has taken a bride among the Gentiles-end of story. It is the reason the Church gets so upset when you start talking about Israel and Yerushalayim and their importance to “all” of us now.

    May Ruach HaKodesh make straight the path of Yahshua through His witnesses in these last days, even as John the emmerser in Messiah’s first coming.

    Isaiah 2:3
    Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
    3 Many peoples will go and say,
    “Come, let’s go up to the mountain of ADONAI,
    to the house of the God of Ya‘akov!
    He will teach us about his ways,
    and we will walk in his paths.”
    For out of Tziyon will go forth Torah,
    the word of ADONAI from Yerushalayim.

    We as the people of Yah, through Messiah, need the whole truth, not just one part of it that we are partial to and have been indoctrinated with. Salvation is through Messiah, while obedience to his Word (His instructions=His Torah) is that which refines us and makes us His workmanship. Most will stand before Messiah in that day, empty handed and saved by the skin of their teeth, in a position that emphasizes their unwillingness to obey Him (His Word). Aim for His best, not the path of least resistance that leads to a default position!!!

    One last thing; when Messiah said a New Commandment I give you that you love one another, was not a declaration of replacing His Torah. It was rather driving home the fact that His Commandments are to be approached in a loving manner, or it is a useless and futile gesture to keep them, which is the state the Jews found themselves in and were in line for judgment because of.

    Be Blessed in the Knowledge of Yah and His Messiah-Yahshua

  272. Accepted,

    Oh yes it is false teaching, by definition and you know definitions. Overflowing with misdirection, shifting focus, not preparing, protecting the flock for the end of the age and “Great Testing” before His soon coming (Matthew 24).

    “For further study, review those books of the Bible that were written specifically to combat false teaching within the church: Galatians, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. It is often difficult to spot a false teacher/false prophet. Satan masquerades as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), and his ministers masquerade as servants of righteousness (2 Corinthians 11:15). Only by being thoroughly familiar with the truth will we be able to recognize a counterfeit” (www.gotquestions.org).

    See this link for more about false teaching.

    http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Gal/Exposing-False-Teachers

    This reply includes an open reply to Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye and other such professional fable teachers with a focus on spreading the fable. I don’t see/read any paid teachers within this blog ~ we all seem to be students(nonprofessionals), seeking Truth.

    Here is what I know – nothing. I know nothing until He opened my eyes and ears. It began in 2010 and continues daily. I write it out, tell others in various fellowships and post here what He leads me to comprehend.

    The Lord and Holy Spirit led me to study as in true discipleship – the ministry of Derek Prince, along with His Word and the Spirit. Mark 16:17-18 and Hebrews 5:12-14 applies as evidence of discipleship (instruction/teaching).

    There are very good teachers like Mark Blitz (Hebrew Feasts/God’s Appointment Times), Dewy Burton (Daniel’s Timeline), Frank/Ida Hammond (Spiritual Warfare/Deliverance) and John Parsons (Hebrew for Christians), which He led me to read. As for John Parsons – he knows Hebrew and those lessons are a blessing. Parsons does not promote “Pre-Trib rapture”, but he holds a different view (paradigm).

    Marianne’s postings of Jezebel are a blessing too. The “revelations” the Lord gave her are confirmations that we are in the “last days” and His soon return.

    The Lord said on November 14, 2012 to a very small bible study group in a humble little church to prepare (John 4:34-36, Joel 2:21-24). That was not a “rapture” message.

    So, here is an open reply to all professional fable tellers.

    Hal, Tim LaHaye and professional fable tellers – a vast majority of Believers are not prepared for a time of “Great Testing”. Therefore, many will be learning on the fly (“don’t return to get your cloths”, Matthew 24:17).

    Hal and all professional fable teachers, how does the Body of Christ prepare, overcoming him (Rev. 12:11)?

    Does the Church comprehend what it means to “overcome by the Blood of the Lamb” when millions are taught through books, DVDs, CDs, movies, radio programs and TV productions, teaching that there is a “Pre-Trib rapture”?

    I don’t think so by asking Christians these questions:

     How did Jesus fulfill the law?

     What is “Passover”?

     Why did John the Baptist proclaim that He is ~ “The Lamb of God?”

     Are demons real and prevalent in the Church?

    Hal, Tim and fable tellers, please explain:

     What does “overcome him” mean within Revelation 12:11?

    This verse is over halfway into the book that you’al say does not apply to “the Church”, cause “we” are “raptured” off the planet after Revelation chapter 4, right? We don’t experience God’s wrath but what about those plagues?

    As a “Pre-Tribber”, I don’t need be concerned with that overcoming problem, right? Hebrews and sinners have that dilemma, right? Good luck to you, cause “we’re out’a here?”

     Tell me what you know about the Hebrews living with 3 days of darkness (that others could feel), but they did not experience, while in Egypt. You know that one – the last plague, before Passover.

     Tell me what you know about spiritual warfare (Ephesians and 2nd Timothy).

    Are there demons active within churches? Some folks really do cast spells within church groups, upon Believers and it is effective. “White Magic” Voodoo too?! Why, tell us what you know, preparing/helping Believers with what is ongoing and coming even more so?

    The issue is not with professional fable teachers so much, but what’s
    going on about them ~ Leviathan, Jezebel, Balaam and those workers of iniquity spirits (spiritual warfare). Love the person and “hate every false way” (Psalm 119:128). It’s (spiritual warfare) within the Church, all over the place.

    What is so interesting is the fable never changed when it became obvious – still going on for months/years when fable tellers know what is coming (Fig tree lesson 1947 (command goes forth to establish) + 70 years = 2017).

    You see, fable teacher professionals been say’n this “Pre-Trib Rapture” since I read, “The Late Great Planet Earth”. That was in the early 70’s. Johnny Carson was on the Tonight Show, Nixon was President and I was in Jr. High.

    Tim, wrote “Left Behind”, as a long series (millions sold as a true work of fiction), expanding upon his work and Hal’s interpretations, proposing that these climactic events (Daniel/Revelation) that did not play out in the 1980s messages. When the 80’s didn’t work out – Oh well, repackage the message, sending it out as “fiction”. Build the excitement in early 2000’s since Israel became a nation and the fig tree lesson applies (1947-2017).

    Hal interpreted that those alive in the 70’s as the generation witnessing the foundation of modern Israel in 1948, which is a pivotal event in most “Rapture” evangelical schools of thought.

    Hal, during this time frame, noted an increase in the frequency of famines, wars and earthquakes, as key events leading up to the end of the world. Hal also foretold a Russian invasion of Israel. Like many previous books, “The Late, Great Plant Earth” – Oh well, that was the 70’s and 80’s. Fable tellers jumped on the book and ran with the story.

    Although they would never claim to know the dates of future events with any certainty, they interpreted that Matthew 24:32-34 indicated that Jesus’ return would within “one generation” of the rebirth of the state of Israel, and the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple (unnecessary) and asserted that “in the Bible” one generation is forty years (therefore, 1988 it was all over).

    Hal’s follow up work “The 1980s: Countdown to Armageddon”, predicted that “the decade of the 1980s could very well be the last decade of history as we know it”.

    Tim LaHaye’s big organization pushes “Pre-Tribbers” to hold on and that any other position is just shamefully wrong, almost stupid; left out and “Left Behind”.

    Hello Hal, Tim and professional teachers of a fable (Pre-Trib rapture; those who understood and prospered on this notion: 1947 + 40 years (generation per Exodus) = 1987/1988 and all things would be fulfilled (Matthew 24:32-35), right?

    Wrong. But, don’t change the “Pre-Trib Rapture” fable.

    1947 + 70 years (Psalm 90:10) = 2017 and all things will be fulfilled (Matthew 24:32-35). 2017 – 7 (Daniel’s week) = 2010.

    Professional fable tellers, we are past the beginning of the end, right? All things will be fulfilled by 2017 (Matthew 24:32-35), which is true. Correct?

    Therefore, we are within the timeline and you’al know we are within, you just don’t know what to do? What’s the problem?

    Leviathan (pride) says, “Don’t change now, you’d look like a fool.”

    Jezebel (control/rebellion/manipulation – See Rev. 2:18-29) says, “Overcoming is not worth the effort, continue to manipulate emotions.”

    Balaam says, “Sell man, sell!” Keep on selling, cause that ‘Babylon’ ain’t
    destroyed, yet.”

    Hal, Tim and professional teachers of the fable should know by now (fig tree lesson), that Barry is “he” riding those white, red, black and soon “pale” (Islamic green), horses.

    Jesus told a few and I’m sharing the message everywhere I have access to proclaim the message. He said “prepare strategically” to a small group of disciples within a humble, tiny church in central Iowa. Thank you Lord.

    You don’t believe me – okay. Doubt the interpretation that includes OT/NT Scriptures? No matter, you will experience the revival breaking out in Nisan and the days that follow.

    Good/true teaching says to Believers:

    Prepare your lamps: comprehending the power of His Blood, as the Lamb of God; Comprehend the Kingdom (Proverbs 23:23 and Romans 14:17-18; and prepare your testimony.

    Prepare your home (comprehending Ezekiel with the widow having little food and Jesus feeding thousands with 5 loaves and 2 fishes). Protect your house/home (spiritual warfare).

    Prepare to be asked by foolish virgins to explain who Jesus IS and the glory of His Kingdom, accepting Him as both Savior and Lord.

    “Woe to those who are pregnant (Nicodemus lesson) and those nursing in those days” (1st Corinthians 3:1-3) because revival is coming under Great Testing (James 5:7-11).

    But, professional fable telling (selling) includes knowing/applying the fig tree lesson (was 40 years, and they should know it is 70 years), but continuing to teach “Pre-Trib Rapture” is in my book “False Teaching”.

    I have no problem with that statement (Psalm 1, Psalm 119:97-104) or telling them personally, eye to eye.

    My Lord, power of the Spirit, put me on my feet to confront witches during a church service. Voodoo curses rebuked one Sunday afternoon from another witch in different “evangelical church”. Rebuked another witch’s curses during service in a third church. They seem to know my position in Christ and hate me for it, too bad. No problem, thank you Lord. So, Hal and Tim and professional fable tellers as False Teachers? Confront them, pointing out serious error is rather “painless” but they will not listen.

    Look, I’m not perfect and no teacher or student (disciple) is perfect without the full anointing of the Spirit. We have not witnessed perfect teaching/writing (inspired) since the John the Disciple (filled to overflowing), wrote Revelation about 90 AD.

    “Even so, come Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:18-21).

    God have mercy on the professional fable tellers.

    Look Accepted, you got me to express another reply to “Pre-Trib rapture” post. Congratulations!

    Blessings to you Accepted and all on this blog, Heaven Awaits!
    Psalm 80

    • DJ

      Lost here, what comment of alienated are you responding to.?

      I think for many, one needs to define “tribulation” and what it involves before we know what “pre” mid, and post mean.

      by traditional definitions, I am “mid”, but by my definitions, I am “post”

    • DJ,

      Well your response above sounds just a tad snarky.
      And though I didn’t necessarily take offence to that, I will endeavour to respond in peace, (but probably with a bit of my own flare for sarcasm).
      I would suspect then that you, (in utilizing the Amplified Bible all of the time), know all about “synonyms” then.
      (And I do also find it strange that you would appreciate Johns writing, (Hebrew 4 Christians), since he utilizes definitions constantly?)

      Nonetheless, here would be some more “definitions”, (descriptions, determinations, explanations, calling a spade a spade), for your consideration.

      However first, allow for me to clarify that I have never read any of the books by the aforementioned authors that you call “professional fable tellers”.
      I simply rely on the Word, the Spirit, and my own personal studies to believe what I believe.

      With that said, lets look at 2 Thessalonians 2: 1-8. and see what Paul has to say.

      “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a “falling away first”, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is god. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what “withholdeth” that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only “He” who now letteth [will let], until “He” be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming:” KJV.

      Notice above that I have placed into quotations the translated English “falling away first”, from verse 3, “withholdeth” from verse 6, and “He” from verse 7.
      The reason that I have done this is because I believe that these 3 are intimately interconnected.

      Up until just a few days ago, I was one of the many people that have had difficulty in understanding the sequence that these passages describe.
      Does, (as verse 3 implies), the “falling away” happen first and then the “son of perdition” is revealed? Or does what “withholdeth” happen first, as verse 6 would imply? However while in prayer, I believe that I was perhaps given some revelation concerning them.
      It is my hope that you will at least read the following with an open heart and consider its content.
      Does the possibility exist, that “the falling away”, the “withholdeth” and the “He” in verse 7, are all one and the same? If one were to read these passages under this understanding, and context, then they would then make perfect sense in respects to sequence.

      See for yourself. Read the above as if all of these three “things”are referring to the same thing. The confusion regarding sequence simply disappears.
      “Something happens”, and then the “son of perdition” is revealed.

      So…. what happens?

      As you and others are probably aware, “falling away” is derived from the transliterated Greek “apostasia”, Strong’s 646.
      It is defined as, “a falling away” and also as a “defection or apostasy”. The word is only utilized one other time in Scripture within Acts 21:21. and is translated there into English as “forsake”, within the King James, (a synonym would be “depart”).

      Its root word etymology is from the transliterated Greek, “apostasion”, Strong’s 647.
      And its definitions of meaning, “divorce, “repudiation”, a bill of divorcement” should bring to mind the “wise and foolish virgins”, of Matthew 25:1-13, and the church of Laodicea in Revelation 3:14-19., as well the others that did not overcome the world.

      “Apostasion” is derived from the transliterated, “aphistēmi”, Strong’s 868. It is defined as, “1) to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove. a) to excite to revolt. 2) to stand off, to stand aloof. a) to go away, to depart from anyone. b) to desert, withdraw from one. c) to fall away, become faithless. d) to shun, flee from. e) to cease to vex one. f) to withdraw one’s self from, to fall away. g) to keep one’s self from, absent one’s self from.”

      “Aphistēmi” is derived from two root words. One being the transliterated “apo”, Strong’s 575, which is defined as, “1) of separation. a) of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place. i.e. of departing, of fleeing. b) “of separation of a part from the whole.” 1) “where of a whole some part is taken.” c) “of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed.” d) “of a state of separation, that is of distance.” 1) “physical, of distance of place.”
      2) of temporal, of distance of time. 2) of origin. a) “of the place whence anything is, comes, befalls, is taken.” b) of origin of a cause.”
      And also of the transliterated “histēmi”, Strong’s 2476, which is defined as, “1) to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set. a) to bid to stand by, [setup]. 1) in the presence of others, in the midst, “before judges”, before members of the Sanhedrin. 2) “to place. b) to make firm, fix, establish.” 1) “to cause a person or thing to keep his or its place”. 2) “to stand, be kept intact, (of family, a kingdom) to escape in safety.” 3) “to establish a thing, cause it to stand.” a) to uphold or sustain the authority or force of anything.” c) “to set or place in a balance.” 1) to weigh: money to one, (because in very early times before the introduction of coinage, the metals used to be weighed). 2) to stand. a) to stand by or near. 1) to stop, stand still, to stand immovable, stand firm. a) of the foundation of a building. b) to stand. 1) continue safe and sound, stand unharmed, to stand ready or prepared. 2) to be of steadfast mind. 3) of quality, one who does not hesitate or wavier.”

      Now my proposal for “falling away” then, in utilizing all of the applicable definitions above, would not only be the “indifference” that some demonstrate regarding their Salvation, but also the “act” of the “judgement thereof”. Therefore, what Paul was referring to in utilizing the word “apostasia” was not only the “falling away” from the Faith by some, but also the “end of the Age of Grace” and the ensuing judgement regarding this age”. Lets see if the following would add credence to that particular theory?

      The English words “what withholdeth” that are utilized in verse 6, are derived from the transliterated Greek “katechō”, Strong’s 2722. It is defined as the following;, “1)to hold back, detain, retain. a) from going away. b) to restrain, hinder, (the course or progress of). 1) that which hinders, anti-Christ from making his appearance. 2) to check a ships headway, i.e. to hold or head a ship. c) to hold fast, keep secure, to keep possession of. 2) to get possession of, take. b) to possess.

      “Katechō” is derived from two root words, “kata”, Strong’s 2596 & “echō”, Strong’s 2192.

      “Kata” is defined as, “1) down from throughout. 2) according to, toward, along.”

      “Echō” is defined as, “1) to have, i.e. to hold. a) to have, (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have, (hold) possession of the mind, (refers to alarm, agitating emotions etc.) to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as. 2) to have, i.e. own or possess. a) external things, such as pertain to property or riches or furniture or utensils or goods or food etc. b) “used of those joined to anyone by the bonds of natural blood or marriage or friendship or duty or law etc., of attendance or companionship.” 3) to hold one’s self or find one”s self so in so, to be in such or such a condition. 4) to hold one’s self to a thing, to lay hold of a thing, to adhere or cling to. a) to be closely joined to a person or a thing.”

      Now what is interesting is the translated “he” that letteth, (or withholdeth), in verse 7, or specifically, “he who now” in the King James. Though there are 6 Greek words that “could” possibly be translated into the English as “he”, (with the transliterated “autos” being the most utilized), here we have the transliterated “arti”, Strong’s 737.

      “Arti” is defined as, “1) just now, this moment. 2) now at this time, at this very time, this moment.”

      “Arti” is derived from the root words “airō”, Strong’s 142, and “artos”, Strong’s 740.

      “Airō” is defined as, “1) “to raise up, elevate, to lift up.” a) “to raise from the ground, to take up”: stones. b) “to raise upwards, elevate, lift up:” the hand. c) “to draw up:” a fish. 2) “to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up, to bear”. 3) “to bear away what has been raised, to carry off”. a) “to move from its place”. b) “to take off or away what is attached to anything.” c) “to remove.” d) “to carry off, to carry away with one”. e) “to appropriate what is taken”. f) “ to take away from another what is his, or what is committed to him. to take by force”. g) “to take and apply to any use”. h) “to take from among the living, either by a natural death or by violence”. i) “cause to cease”.”

      “Artos” is defined as the following, “1) “food composed of flour mixed with water and baked”. (Brings to mind Leviticus 23 and the waving of the “firstfruit loaves” on Shavu’ot.) a) the Israelites made it in the form of an oblong, or round cake, as thick as ones thumb, and as large as a plate or platter, hence it was not to be cut but broken. b) loaves were consecrated to the Lord. c) of the breads used at the love-feasts and at the Lord’s Table. 2) food of any kind.”

      “Artos” is derived from the transliterated “Airō”, which is already defined above.

      So we have gone full circle here. Now if you actually took the time to read all of the above in its entirety, and also realize that Father God had a reason for the Apostles to write the New Testament in Greek, Then how can you possibly deny all of the above?

      It is my belief that these are all intimately connected as being one event. That the “gathering, rapture, resurrection” will happen First, (as the transliterated “prōton”, Strong’s 4412, in verse 3 states.) That the English “falling away” consists of the “Judgement and the end of the Age of Grace”, and that the Lord is Faithful to those that are Faithful to Him.

      Can’t prove it, nor do I say the above is unadulterated fact, however you have to admit that it is very compelling. No?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach, our Most Holy and Precious Savior.

      Amen.

      • Oh and DJ,
        By the way, I forgot to mention something above regarding what you said about John…..
        You said and I quote, “As for John Parsons, he knows Hebrew and those lessons are a blessing. Parsons does not promote, “Pre-Trib rapture”, but he holds a different view (paradigm).” End quote.

        I can assure you with all certainty Doug, that John is MOST DEFINITELY a “Pre-Tribber”!

        I can give you his cell or home phone number if you would like, and you can ask him about that yourself.
        But I would suggest that you simply take my word for it.

        Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Precious Deliverer.
        Amen and Amen.

      • I could not even read this comment and follow it.

        It read like a dictionary, for the LONGEST time,,,…..I am not sure what it had to do with your point, but by the time I got to the end of the comment, I did not care about the point anymore,because my brain was dead.

        too many trees without telling us which forest you are in first.

  273. Hal, Tim and the majority of Rapture authors (“professional fable tellers”) apply this model: “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” trumpet/voice is heard twice – once is a calling up “Rapture” and sounded when He returns to earth as King of kings and Lord of lords.

    The following is off the top of my head, corrections and edits are welcome. I am not completely sure.

    Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

    Rapture occurs after the recording of events as we read in Revelation chapters 1-3. Before any of the first four seals opens ~ “Rapture”. Therefore, no Believer (wise virgin) will experience one day of the 7 years (Daniel’s week). Also, the potential signature of “the peace treaty” (enters into a 7 year agreement) tells the Church that the Antichrist is coming ~ “Rapture”! Known as “Pre-Tribulation” because the “rapture” occurs before the full 7 years tribulation begins (Daniel’s week).

    Mid-Tribulation Rapture:

    Option A: Occurs before “he” is revealed as the Antichrist, possibly before the 4th Seal is opened. Rapture occurs to remove the Church from experiencing any plagues and God’s Wrath. The Church does see/experience the first 3.5 years of Daniel’s week (7 years) and the first 3 seals. The Church may see the Antichrist active for a short time (“10 days”).

    Option B: Occurs after plagues and before the Wrath of God comes upon the earth. Potential “rapture event” occurring about at the 6th Trumpet and before or at the 7th Trumpet. (Please help me with this definition.) Occurs during a Hebrew Feasts date (Passover, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, Tabernacles) but closer to the end of the 7 year period.

    B and C seem to be really close in timing and event placement.

    Option C: Rapture occurs at the end of tribulation, just about the very end of the 7 years, probably Feasts of Trumpets or Atonement, which include the blowing of the “trumpet” during those Feast days. This could be the 7th and last trumpet. Those Hebrew Feasts are longer than one day (no one knows the day) and the hour of a day are measured by the hours of daylight (vary by day/month).

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other” (Matthew 24:29-31, NKJV).

    Post Tribulation:

    They remnant are gathered to Him when He sets foot on earth. They are protected (as the Hebrews in Egypt), from the plagues and God’s wrath by the “Blood of the Lamb” while here on earth. They enter into an “Ark” like experience (Noah but no boat). The rapture is a transporting of the remnant from where ever they located/hiding to where He is at that day/hour of His return as King of kings and Lord of lords.

    That is as good as I can do without spending hours reading all those books again. Did that once and not again. How did I do?

    • dj

      fairly good…since you can find even more definitions than that, esp when you talk to me 🙂

      did you mean the 7th seal, during mid trib, rather than 7th trumpet?

      I am starting to think that the 7 seals take 7 years…..then everything after that is the wrath…

  274. Marianne,

    Accepted wrote this on Feb 16th

    “DJ. A pre-tribulation Gathering is NOT a false teaching. It is based upon a plethora of both Old Testament shadow events and New Testament Scripture. Simply because you believe that you happen to know “everything” that Father God has planned over the next little while, does not make it so.

    Leave what is God’s plan, for Him to competently complete.
    Be Blessed in Yeshua.”

    So, I shared with Accepted an assessment and reply, with full and complete attention, to his statements: “I know everything” and “leaving what is God’s plan.”

    It’s been a blessed day, with a fulfillment of prophetic word given last Sunday, thank you Lord.

    Blessings to all!

    “Restore us, O Lord God of hosts; Cause Your face to shine, and we shall be saved!” (Psalm 80:19, NKJV).

    • dj

      well….

      the church of philadelphia was promised that it would escape the time of trouble…..that could be taken as a pre-trib promise.

      however, it appears most of the church will go through a tribulation period…

      again, how the time of trouble is defined also puts some light on things as well….which events occur, etc,

  275. Marianne,
    Here’s the problem. You have this mistaken belief that the “Law” means the Ten Commandments, or the “moral law.” The Law ISN’T made up of three parts (Moral, Civil, Sacrificial). (This was an invention of Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century.) The Law is ONE. You claim God never changes, and therefore His Law never changes, and then you proceed to ignore 2/3 of it.
    Paul says in Galatians, that if you insist on being justified through circumcision, you must obey the WHOLE Law. This must mean that circumcision is at least PART of the Law. This and many passages in the Old Testament show that the Law is one unit.
    The Law of God is NOT a list of do’s and don’ts. The Mosaic Law was ONLY a SHADOW of God’s Eternal Law embodied in Christ. Jesus didn’t come to abolish the Law. He came to show that The Mosaic Law was much too inadequate to contain God’s Infinite, Transcendent Law. He came to show that HE is the fulfillment of the Law. And that Law is love.
    He came the show that obedience to the Law didn’t consist of obeying a list of rules. He IS the embodiment of the Law and obedience consists in following, trusting, relying upon and living in Him.
    Through this, we see that adultery is not the real problem, but, rather, the lust which leads to it is the problem. We see that murder is not the real problem but the hatred which leads to the act. We also see that “keeping the sabbath,” is not about mechanically refraining from all work one day a week, but about entering the rest of Christ (Matthew 11:28-30) as a Christian convert now, and finally to enter His ‘rest’ of Eternal Life at the end of our lives when our earthly ‘labours’ are complete (Hebrews 3:14-4:11).
    Jesus said that He came not to abolish the Law and the Prophets. The “Law” is the Torah, the 5 books of Moses. The “Prophets” are the writings, the history books and the prophetic books. Heaven and Earth would not pass away until Jesus fulfilled every joy or tittle. He is the fulfillment.

    If you want to be justified by the Mosaic Law, then you MUST obey the ENTIRE Law.
    God said make sure you follow ALL of the statutes, decrees, and laws.
    Do you obey and follow the seven Feasts of the Lord, which God calls “decrees.”
    Do you follow all the dietary Laws?
    Do you light a fire on the Sabbath? (It could get pretty cold in winter without a furnace).

    Either follow the Law of Moses (the shadow) or the Law of Christ (the reality). You can’t do both.

    God’s Law never changes? Listen to this.

    Old Testament: The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
    New Testament: Turn the other cheek, give also your cloak, walk 2 miles…forgive.

    • I understand the points you are making, but it’s NOT true to say the law is all one thing.

      Different parts of the law were regarded differently, in that there were laws to govern the nation during the time God was ruling ancient Israel as a theocracy, which are NOT needed now because God is dealing with a DIFFERENT situation now. God now rules our hearts, not a physical nation consisting of mainly unconverted people, that the additional laws were designed for.

      THOSE old rules and regulations were regarded DIFFERENTLY to the Ten Commandments because they were only put in the SIDE of the ark – see Deut. 31:24, and verse 26. Compare that with Deut.10:2 and 5 where the ten commandments were put directly into the MAIN part of the ark.

      • The Ark, as I’m sure you know, is a type of The body of Christ, with the Law in it’s heart, with eternal life living in it (almond branch), and sprinkled with the blood of Christ, gotten from the sacrifice made on the altar, watched over by the cherubim, etc.
        These were all prophetic shadows and types, not the reality. The reality is Christ. The entire Old Testament Law, moral, civil AND sacrificial, were ONE Law which was fulfilled in Christ.
        You fail to distinguish between the type and the reality. (For example, as we have said before, the Sabbath is a type of the rest we have in Him. I love God because He’s given the gift of the sabbath (it was made for us). I love God’s Sabbath, because it set me free from having to try to earn His approval.

    • todd

      I am not talking about justification, OR salvation.

      I am saying to obey god because we love him.

      • You assume we do not love God because we worship on Sunday. We believe that the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ. You believe it still applies.
        We believe we are obeying God’s commands as oulined in the New Covenant. I believe it is possible that there are many who worship on Sunday who love God MORE that some who worship on Saturday. The day we worship has nothing to do with how much we love God.
        Do you believe Sunday-keepers will suffer God’s wrath like James does?

        • no….!

          I am not saying that…. that you do not love God. I never said anything about saturday vs sunday anyhow.

          you love God, but you interpret obedience in a different way than I do.

          for me , with choice a) OT and b) NT, I am just saying I believe in c) All of the above.!

          • Sorry, the whole discussion is about Sabbath-keeping and you seem to agree with James and Rob, that we’re all apostate. So do you worship on Saturday?

            • I do not care which day someone worships on. I have been home all day watching the blog because it is snowing here, and I cannot go anywhere anyhow.

              I mainly watch comments, as the administrator, for proper content….decent language and behavior…etc.

              Just because I do not respond to each and every comment, which would be too much for me, does not mean I am agreeing with someone when I do not object. There are comments with content where I would disagree, but I let people express themselves, and let them defend their views.

              once in awhile I pop in, and say something.

              nicetiming was talking about the whole law vs different parts of the law, and james was saying only saturday worship…was ok….

              I have no opinion on some things, and I think people should worship God every day…. 🙂

              When I do go somewhere to a service, it is usually on a saturday….there have been times when I went on a sunday….other weekends, I went on both days.

  276. NICE SAID:
    There is so much misunderstanding here I would like to refute, but don’t have enough time, so I will just take two of Todds statements:
    Statement # 1) Todd listed sins covered in the New Testament and seems to think Sabbath keeping is not covered, but I believe it is.
    The commandments are grouped into two sections, first, how to love God, second, how to love people. Sabbath keeping comes under the first section, how to love God.
    Did Jesus change the fourth commandment, as to what DAY it was to be kept? No he did NOT; and which day of the week to keep was so well established it did not need to be retaught by Jesus. Therefore it still applies, and is included as “a given” in the following verses
    I SAY:
    As you would say: A very “thin” argument. (It may have been well established for the Jews, but shouldn’t God have informed the new Gentile Christians?) Total speculation, especially in light of the fact that the Mosaic Law has been made obsolete, the written code has been cancelled, etc.
    As for the Sabbath being a “given,” I think “thou shalt not murder” would be a given also. After all, the law against murder was know at the beginning of Genesis. Cain murdered his brother and God punished him. And the law against murder was specifically given to Noah. The Sabbath law wasn’t given until Exodus. If anything would have been a given, it would have been the 6th commandment, not the 4th. But the New Testament does mention murder, but not the seventh day Sabbath.
    As for Jesus obeying the Sabbath: He most certainly did. He had to. He was born under the law in order that he could redeem us from the law. The Law was fulfilled in Him, therefore, now the jots and titles can pass (Thank God!)

    NICE SAID:
    1Jn 2:3,4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    1Jn 3:4 also still applies: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    Also 1Jn 5:2,3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For THIS is the love of God, that we KEEP his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    I SAY:
    Taken out of context. Continue reading and you will find that THESE are His commands: To love God and love others. Read some more and you will find that our love for God is shown and proved in how we love others. Read some more and the will see that the ENTIRE law is fulfilled in this: Love your neighbor.

    NICE SAID:
    Therefore, the commandments are still in force. The ones on HOW to love God remain unchanged; and they STILL include keeping the Sabbath.
    I SAY:
    The ONLY Sabbath we are commanded to keep is the one mentioned in Hebrews. And how do we enter that Sabbath rest? Through faith. The Sabbath is not a day, it is a Person. Sabbatarians miss the true meaning and intent behind the Law. The Law was a type and shadow. It was put in place to show is our sinfulness, and pointed to the One who would come to redeem us. All of the Law is found in Him.
    All who are burdened and heavy laden come to HIM to find rest for their souls, not Saturday.

    NICE SAID:
    Statement # 2) NOWHERE in the Bible is there even a HINT of the Mark (of the beast) being Sunday-keeping.
    Well here’s a hint for you:
    Exodus 31:13 and also verse 17 both say the sabbath God gave to Israel is a sign. The word ”sign” (word # H0226 in Strongs) is the SAME word used for the word MARK in Genesis 4:15, referring to the MARK of Cain.
    So it’s OBVIOUS that the MARK of the beast is also a sign, and that the words SIGN and MARK are interchangeable. One is a sign, or mark, of God’s people and the other is a sign, or mark, of the beast.
    I SAY:
    Yes, the two Hebrew words are the same, for both mean “a token or ensign or banner etc.” But they have a totally different meaning from the Greek work for “mark, ” meaning “a scratch, or engraving, etc.”
    Since the entire Law and the Feast of Unleavened Bread are also “signs” to be attached to our foreheads, hands, gates and doorposts, there is no reason to believe Sunday keeping is the Mark.
    Our righteousness comes by faith, not by obedience to the Law.
    “Having BELIEVED, you were marked in Him with a SEAL, the promised HOLY SPIRIT.
    Now we live by a NEW law, the Law of the Spirit.
    The Israelites’ “mark” was the Mosaic Law.
    The Christian’s “mark” is the presence of the Holy Spirit (the Law of Christ) which we receive through faith.
    The Mark of the Beast is the spirit of the Antichrist in the disobedient, unbelieving and unrepentant.
    If the Mark of the Beast is Sunday-keeping, why doesn’t God just say it. Does He WANT His followers to be deceived?

    NICE SAID:
    n Col 2: 16,17 Paul is actually saying don’t let anyone judge you for how you KEEP the Sabbath days.
    Regarding the Shadow VS the Body, in verse 17, Paul may actually be saying that the body of Christ may judge, (the word ‘is’ is in italics in the KJV, which means it has been added by translators) however even if the usually accepted translation is correct, it is still a fact that Christ (the head of the body who judges OR Christ who is the substance) has already judged in this matter, and continues to uphold ALL of the ten commandments, but NOT the doctrines of men who have added to the law, so it’s clear that the Sabbath is still to be kept. We are told to FOLLOW Jesus example and he clearly KEPT the Sabbath.
    I SAY:
    Whenever you see a “therefore,” you always need to to go back to previous verses to find out what it is “there for.”
    And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
    And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
    For he is our peace, which hath made of both one, and hath broken the stop of the partition wall…”
    In ABROGATING through his flesh the hatred, that is, THE LAW OF COMMANDMENTS which standeth in ordinances, for to make of twain one new man in himself, so making peace…Therefore (since the law has been abrogated) let no man judge…” (parenthesis mine).
    The Law was fulfilled in Christ and when he died, the Law died also. The Law, which once separated Jew and Gentile (for it was a “sign” of The Jew’s covenant with God) has been done away with, and now Jew and Gentile are “one new man,” under a new law.
    Nowhere is it even implied that this verse means HOW to keep those days, nor that Christ has already judged in this matter.
    It would be possible for the verse to mean “the body of Christ may judge,” if it were not for the fact that the Sabbath is called a SHADOW of things to come. This forces us to ask the question, “What is casting the shadow?” And the answer is given: ” the BODY (gr. that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself) [is] of Christ.
    Making the Sabbath a SHADOW implies that there is something more real, something that is casting the shadow. “For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things…”
    The law was but the shadow or representation of good things to come; all that it pointed out is to be sought and obtained in Christ. He is our Sabbath rest.

    You are partially correct in saying that the Sabbath was a sign. Obedience to the ENTIRE Law was the sign, not just just the Sabbath.

    “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Tie them as SIGN on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

    “…faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today …Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as SIGNS on your HANDS and bind them on your FOREHEADS. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates…”

    And in reference to the seven day long Feast of Unleavened Bread,

    “Commemorate this day, the day you came out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery, because the Lord brought you out of it with a mighty hand…This observance will be for you like a SIGN on your HAND and a reminder on your FOREHEAD that this law of the Lord is to be on your lips.

    The entire argument rests on the question of whether the Mosaic Law is still valid today, or if that Law has been made obsolete and been replaced, or whether the Law was given only to the Jews.

    Jesus made a new covenant with Israel (the one mentioned in Jeremiah) in which the law is written on our hearts and minds. That new covenant was put into effect at His death. Before His death Israel was still under the Mosaic Law, so yes, Jesus obeyed the Sabbath. He had to be born under the Mosaic Law so that He could redeem us from it. And now that He has FULFILLED the Law, those jots and tittles can now pass away.
    There are many nonsensical arguments against Jesus being born under the Law. But regardless of whether Jesus was born, or made, and whether He was under THE Law or not, the fact remains: in order for Jesus to die for the sins of the world, he had to be a perfect sinless sacrifice. Had to fully obey the Mosaic Law in order to redeem us from it.

    There is a new priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek of which Jesus is the High Priest. When there is change of priesthood, there must also be a change of law.
    The new law is called the law of the Spirit of Life, or the Law of Christ. This new law has set us free from the law of sin and death (the Mosaic Law, which only brings condemnation and death). We were once held prisoner by the Mosaic Law. Being set free from it, now we are free to obey the Law of the Spirit.

    “But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
    For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said
    “The days are coming, declares the Lord,
    when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    It will not be like the covenant…”
    The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
    Hebrews
    “This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
    I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds.”

    “When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the WRITTEN CODE which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross…”

    Now, a righteousness apart from the Law has been made know. We receive that righteousness through faith, not through the observance of the Law, for the Law made nothing perfect.

    This righteousness was the kind of righteousness which Abraham was given. The obedience that Abraham exhibited was not obedience to the Mosaic Law. He obeyed God’s commandments even before the Mosaic Law came into existence. It is an obedience to the Spirit of God. The Law now lives IN us, in our hearts and minds. We are no longer bound by any external law.

    By believing, we are given God’s Spirit. That Spirit living in the believer is the “sign” that we are God’s possession.

    “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were MARKED in him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.”

    And what is this Gospel?
    “…I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
    For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…”

    This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God LIVES IN THEM and they in God.

    The Spirit is given to us through faith, not by obedience to the Law.

    In the Old Covenant, obedience to the Law of Moses was a sign that they belonged to God.

    In the New Covenant, the sign of God’s people is the presence of the Holy Spirit. We receive the Spirit, the Seal of God, not by obeying an obsolete Mosaic Law, but by believing the Gospel of Christ and loving our neighbor.

    Jesus said, the sign to the world that be are His, is our love for one another.

    John says the ENTIRE law is fulfilled by loving your neighbor.

    “You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Notice, it says that loving our neighbor fulfills the ENTIRE law. It DOESN’T say that the Ten Commandments are divided into two sections and that loving your neighbor fulfills commandments 5-10. It says loving your neighbor fulfills commandments 1-10. This is because our love for God is shown, and proved by how we love others.

    “…for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?”

    “This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome…

    John tells us that our love for God is shown in our love for one another and that our love for others is shown in our love for God. He tells us that love for God is shown in keeping His commands, and that his commands are not burdensome.

    Now, under the New Covenant, the Law of the Spirit, what are those commands? Are they the Mosaic Law? No, they are:
    1) to believe in the Name of God’s Son (which also means believing the Gospel about God’s Son.)
    2) to love one another (which is also a sign that we love God.)

    Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”

    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God IN THEM. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment.

    Again, John tells us that God’s commands are to believe in the name of His Son, and the love one another. And by obeying these commands, we fulfill the Law of the Spirit.

    And when we live and walk by the Spirit, we are not under the law, and we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

    So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    “The law is not made for the righteous, but for the unrighteous.” And we are the righteousness of God through FAITH, not through obedience to the Law.

    “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”

    The righteousness of God is our being given salvation from God, justified through the blood of Christ, his substitutionary death, we are now experiencing sanctification through his Spirit; all righteousness, justification, and holiness, we receive through HIM. We do not have it on our own separate from Him.

    “This righteousness of God comes through FAITH.”

    And now that we are the righteousness of God, we won’t fulfill the desires of the flesh.
    “The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

    In the Book of Revelation we see three groups of people. The first group of people is a great multitude from every nation, tongue, people and tribe, redeemed to God by Jesus’ blood and made to be kings and priests to God;
    And we shall reign on the earth. These are those who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and they are before the throne of God and they serve Him day and night.

    The second group are the servants of God from all the tribes of the children of Israel who are sealed with a seal, “the promised Holy Spirit, which is a deposit, guaranteeing [their] inheritance…” They have the Father’s Name on their forehead and were redeemed from among men to be the firstfruits of all the nation of Israel saved out of the Tribulation. They are not Sabbath-keepers as some suggest.

    The third group are the “cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ” They are those who
    “did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.” They are the ones who stand condemned “because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.”

    The Book of Revelation is about the culmination of a battle that began at the beginning of time, between the Serpent and his seed and the Woman and her seed.
    It is NOT about Sabbath-keepers vs. Sunday-keepers.!

    It is about a battle fought between Christ, and His righteous followers, and Satan and his wicked followers. So the great battle of Armageddon is a conflict that will rage between God and Satan–between truth and error. And this spiritual battle will eventually involve every person on earth for each must decide whom to follow–either Christ and truth, or the devil and error: either eternal life with Christ, or eternal destruction with Satan.
    And judgement isn’t decided based on which day Christians worship.

    It isn’t decided based on which day anyone worships.

    It is based on WHO we worship.

    “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.
    “So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast…”

    The Dragon is “that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world…”

    The Beast is “the man of sin… the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

    The Man of Sin is NOT the False Prophet. It is Man of Sin, the Beast who is worshipped. The False Prophet is NOT worshipped.
    The False Prophet exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and CAUSES the earth and those who dwell in it TO WORSHIP the first Beast, whose deadly wound was healed. In the Old Testament, a prophet was one who spoke for God and urged the the Israelites to worship God. The False Prophet will speak on behalf of the Beast and cause all to worship him.

    The Beast is a KINGDOM and also a KING. He is a referred to as a Beast because of the power that possesses him. That power is a demonic spirit which rises from the abyss when it is opened by a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To [the star] was given the key to the abyss. That star is Satan.

    “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth.”
    “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Lucifer (lit. day star) son of the morning!”

    It is this demonic beast spirit, along with the second Beast and the Dragon, who are cast into the Lake of Fire, to be tormented, day and night, forever.
    Lake of Fire is not symbolic of destruction. Something destroyed cannot be tormented.

    And why is Satan given the key? So that God’s purposes will be fulfilled.
    Just as Satan was given power to kill the Messiah at His first coming and therefore fulfill His purpose of redemption, so also, Satan is given power at the end of days to accomplish God’s purpose in judging an unrepentant world. Satan is nothing more than a tool in the hands of God!
    Like everybody else, Satan has only the power God created in him and the latitude to use it only as He permits and no more. The power given to him is meted out for what God wants him to accomplish for His purposes.

    “For “Behold, I have created the blacksmith
    Who blows the coals in the fire,
    Who brings forth an instrument for his work;
    And I have created the spoiler to destroy.
    No weapon formed against you shall prosper…”

    “For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.”

    The Book of Revelation tells us that the Beast is an eighth KING, who for one hour receives authority with the TEN KINGS.

    “But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. The BEAST that you saw was, and is not, and WILL ASCEND out of the ABYSS and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that WAS, and IS NOT and yet IS.

    “Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven HEADS are seven mountains (KINGDOMS) on which the woman sits. There are also seven KINGS. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. The BEAST that WAS, and IS NOT, is himself also the eighth (KING), and is of the seven (KINGS) and is going to perdition.

    “The ten horns which you saw are ten KINGS who have received no KINGDOM as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as KINGS WITH THE BEAST. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

    “This calls for wisdom. (not speculation) If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.” If one cannot buy or sell logically it can’t be just the day they go to church. and since the Greek word for “mark” refers to a physical mark, then it must mean something physical. No one is given the mark against their will, the mark of the beast will be voluntary. People will choose to accept the mark so the can buy and sell and they will worship the antichrist to avoid being killed. They will accept the mark of the beast since it will seem like an advantage to do so. The number is a number of a man, not a title of an office, a role or a system. It is the name in Greek, which is the name of the beast. The number is a mans number, literally “is a man” and “the number of him” hexa kosioi hexakonta hex. These are not numerals but words which are in 3 groups =600+ 60+6. Food for thought, there seems to be significance that this is done this way. So it may not be 112 +63+ 501 =666 or other random numbers as Sabbatarians or others have calculated.

    The 7th Day teaching of the mark majors on the minors, and when all is said and done I fear for Sabbatarians because when the real mark comes they won’t be preventing their people from taking it, because they have been so utterly convinced it is a day to worship on, Sunday. This deception may very well have eternal consequences on them. They may fall for it because their eyes are on the doctrine of a day, instead of whom this person who wants worship actually is.

    Although the Law of Moses has been made obsolete by the death of Jesus it doesn’t mean we have no moral obligations. Those moral obligations are recorded in the New Testament. But the observance of the Old Testament Sabbath is never mentioned.

    So why wasn’t the Old Testament Sabbath mentioned? You say it is because it was a”given?” Think about those poor Gentile converts who knew nothing of the Law of Moses? Don’t you think it would have been nice if Paul would have told them about the Sabbath?

    The TRUE Sabbath, however, IS mentioned in the New Testament.

    “Now we who have believed enter that rest.”

    There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his work. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.
    Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their UNBELIEF.

  277. Todd, Sounds good, and you ARE doing a wonderful job of of upholding your position, but it reminds me too much of Daniel 7:25 —

    “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws…”

    I got worn out half way through your last post. Congratulations for wearing me out.

    And the subject of the verse happens to be on changing times and laws also!

  278. Oh, it’s not that long. You missed the best part. Just kidding. It makes no difference whether you read it or not. You’ve made up your mind. I posted it so that others would have something to think about.

    I don’t think there’s any correlation between me wearing you out and the Antichrist wearing out the Saints, do you? You’re using a James tactic, now.

    I agree that the Catholic Church has changed times and laws, i.e. Passover, Easter, etc. (I don’t include Christmas because the birth of the Messiah was never foreshadowed in any feast. I, myself, don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter.) And they’ve changed and added a multitude of laws.
    But making Sunday the day of worship doesn’t change the Sabbath. The Sabbath will always be the seventh day. I just believe it was a shadow of something better, or rather Someone.

  279. Sorry, it’s a lot more difficult refuting a theory, than making one up. 🙂

    • Understood. But it looks like you copied a whole web page into the comment section. so if it is too long, you may lose your audience, and your point. :/

  280. maybe the beast is man. (or earth itself.

    • riley

      good point. you are deeper than you think.

      if all men had given their heart to Jesus and had been saved 2000 years ago, and all men since then had continued to obey god, repent and be forgiven for sins, the beast would have no power at all in this world.

      it is the rebellion of man against God, which is sin and wickedness, that empowers the beast, because unless it has a following, it is “dead”

      so as long as man is wicked, and chooses to obey satan rather than god, there will be a beast here.

      when the beast is destroyed by jesus at the end, all the wicked will be destroyed with it.

      and then the beast will be no more.

  281. Accepted and all,

    Your reply makes no sense to me either. What is going on?

    So then, there may be some folks who will read this reply, giving another opportunity to share the words of knowledge and message given by the Lord on November 14, 2012. 

    This is a very clear message through Scriptures and His personal Word. Simply read the verses and comprehend His message. 

    No dream interpration or word definition needed and little prophetic desifering requred – He made it simple, thank you Lord.

    November 14, 2012 – in a humble mid-week bible study in a little church within a small Iowa town, the Lord came to us with a word of knowledge.

    That evening (only 6 of us attending this bible study), one woman said the Lord led her to read John 4:34-38, that week and she wanted to share this with us. (Please read those verses.)

    “… you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’?…”

    When she finished reading
    all the verses – I knew the message within the verses (“in 4 months”) and said, “I can add to those verses. The Lord gave me Joel 2:21-24 over a year ago.” (Please read all verses in KJames or New King James).

    I then said, “these words of knowledge tell me (maybe others), that there will be a revival coming in 4 months (November 14 to March 14 is 4 months almost to the day of this bible study), which is the first month in the Hebrew calendar [Nisan].

    Then, later that evening during prayer time, the Lord entered our room. This is how I know it was the Lord and what He told us.

    My heart became “big” and “warm”, the room became “full” like I was underwater (scuba diving experience), without the ear pressure; the Pastor began to thank the Lord for His presence; the woman who read from John began speaking in tongues; then, the Pastor interpreted – “the Lord says to prepare strategically.”

    Once the Pastor spoke – the room and my heart returned to “normal”.

    I then said to Pastor: “I know what the Lord is telling us” (John and Joel verses included – you need to read those verses).

    “The foolish will be turning to the wise asking “tell me about Jesus!” This is not just about a community or region, this is world wide”. 

    3 people were involved with this experience -not one individual (me), or just some “emotional spirit filled pastor with dreams of
    revival in his head” or “one emotionally charged  woman babbling in an unknown language.”

    I do not socialize, fellowship weekly, or really know these people at all.  This was my 3rd, maybe 4th bible study with them. We didn’t share our eschatology studies, end times news or deeply held “rapture” belief paradigms. I’ve been back only once since the Lord came to us that evening.

    Therefore, what I’ve experienced and comprehend is totality what He has given me.

    Paul wrote what I am beginning to comprehend – “I know nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified” (1st Corinthians 2:2).

    Hey dru – “I know nothing”. Look for a reply address to you later this week. You make me smile. 

    So, place “prepare strategically” (November 2012) with the warning message from Marianne’s  “Death
    Angel” dream (occuing since November) and everyone is welcome to consider their own personal/spiritual “strategic preparation”.

    When the Ark of the Covenant is brought forth within the next few days/weeks – please know there are not many days left until the day afterwinter and before
    Sabboth (Matthew 24), thank you Lord.

    Then, Believers can have their coat with them (strategic preparation as in Matthew 24)  – His Kingdom come and His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

    Accepted – Parson’s has yet to reply to my personal e-mail message, except to acknowledge my financial support.  Oh, well. His Hebrew lessons are very good and helpful with my studies of the Word. 

    Blessings
    Psalm 80 

    • DJ and all.

      This will be my last post here on this site for numerous reasons.

      Personally I find it incredulous as to how one could not follow the above?
      Definitions and meanings for words of a different language are provided for ones benefit, so that an individual might attain a more comprehensive understanding of the text. That is the specific point in being able to utilize Lexicon’s, Strong’s and Vines within ones hermeneutics.

      All I did above was provide the transliterated Greek for three specific and interconnected words. I then provided the complete definitions to those words for the benefit of the reader. Then I provided the “root word” etymology from whence those three words are derived, and as well, those definitions to those words.
      This practice is not only elementary, but fundamental in undertaking any critical form of exegesis. (Perhaps that’s where the problem lies?)

      I could have culled out specific definitions to simply substantiate my point, but believe that to be a practice that does not honor the integrity of God the Fathers Word.
      So I provided all of the definitions, and left it up to the reader, and the Spirit to spot the specific and applicable trees in the forest.

      If one compiles the fullness of all of the above definitions in respects to those three (3) words, to me they reveal not only a “falling away of some from the Faith”, but also the “Judgement” associated to that fall. As well they also describe a “Divorce, Repudiation and a Acceptance”. A “Raising Up” and a “Leaving Behind”. A “Beginning of an Age and an End of an Age”.

      If anything John 4:34-38. substantiates “this” Harvest.

      Nonetheless I will leave you all to formulate your own beliefs.
      I am sorry that my post which seemed to only cause confusion, read only like a parable for some, where so much more appeared to be evident.
      God the Father is Sovereign and His Word is not in vain.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod.
      Amen.

      • Sorry , i did not mean to imply that you should not post comments.

        my reading and writing style is this:

        short comment present the point in a few sentences, so that it is clear enough.

        long comments present the point as it goes along.

        very long comments need to introduce the point to begin with, and then continue to present the point as it goes along, because if the reader is going through all the definitions,, and “data,” he has to know why he is reading all that…if he cannot guess, he will stop reading and never get to the end, he will just see an endless sea of data, and wonder what it is about.

        the writer should not assume that his point is evident as he presents proof of something. the reader wants to know what the something is as he reads

        I guess I could have just skipped to the end of the comment to see if the point was mentioned there.

        I was confused to begin with when you said that the falling away and the “he” was the same thing. I do not think you tied all your multiple definitions to any points you were making.

        also, I thought you were trying to make one point, but it appears your point was something else.

        the excess definitions were actually a distraction. for example, why is artos introduced? FOOD? what does that have to do with falling away. katecho – to hold or head a ship??? kata’ down from throughout? why is echo defined? were all these words used in the original text?

        were you saying that the rapture happened first, then the falling away occured later, or that the falling away occured first? I do not think the man of perdition is “he” but it seems you do?

        between verse 1 and 3 , it sounds like the falling away and the son of perdition is revealed first, before we gather in the air to meet the Lord….this would put believers IN the tribulation time before they were raptured.

        anyhow, sorry I did not get your point. I did not know it was about the end and beginning of an age.

    • Dj,
      Its your turn now, and it looks as if your string of events may be coming to play.
      What the Lord revealed to me was a “false tribulation” and to be wary of this. So I am watching with eagerness to see if what you say is true or false. Then i will comment.

      I believe that you “Know in part”, and I believe that Accepted “Knows in Part”, and I believe that Marianne “Knows in part” The sooner we understand this the sooner the parts become one.

      Quite frankly, I am at a point where I am overwhelmed by the intricacies of the Lord’s plan. I wish I could say as Walter Cronkite used to “That’s the way it is” but I do not know for sure.

      What he has given me though, is to say with certainty that a deception is taking place as warned by Paul in his 2 Thess. letter which You and Accepted are discussing, and it also pertains to the Law, and other discussions I ahave had on site.

      I will throw this bone out to you though, which I also sent to accepted personally, In matthew 24:15 there is a bracketted statement which reads ” whoso reads shall understand” This statement can be also translated as “whoso distinguishes shall perceive”. This is of course describing the abomination of desolation, which is described in two places in daniel 9:27, and 11:31 ff. There is also the Son of perdition….Man of sin, and then the Lawless one described in the 2 Thess. 2 passage. Have you tried to distinguish between these two?? Then you may perceive what he has given me to perceive.

      I look forward to your response to me though, You do have a way of presnting things that does get people to think.

      Shalom.

    • So DJ,
      Are you predicting the rapture on March 14th? If so you should check with Janet to see if that date jives with her weird calculations.
      If not, please tell us what exactly are we supposed to prepare for.
      I just hope this is not just another case of someone saying, “God told me something would happen in such-and-such a time“, then all you have to do is pick something from world events and claim “that was it!” After all, anyone can do that, but it is always meaningless.
      I just hope this prediction will be different.
      So what is it?

      • James
        “consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked” (Eccl. 7:13)

        • Very generic. What are you implying?

          • James,
            .”Beware the ides of March”.

            I was referring to your denial of God’s handiwork in the World, A verse that just popped up regarding it. That whole little sonnet there in chapter 7 is a good one to read. verse 13 is just one of those myriad of verses on the sovereignty of God….My “scoff” in response to yours.

            • So now we are relying on Shakespeare for prophesy?
              God’s handiwork is seen thru nature, which He created to create the world we see.
              Some see the Grand Canyon as a sculpture carved by the hand of God. I see it cut by the Colorado river over millions of years, according to the laws of nature.
              It just depends on how you want to think about it.

  282. dru, Marianne, James and Accepted (formerly Alienated),

    Thank you for keeping this side conversation going – providing an opportunity to share this message again and continue the dialogue.

    Accepted/Alienated, best regards and blessings in the reading of His Word.

    Here is what I know – Before Marianne posted “Prepare for Emergency” (warning), “Angel of Death and 3 Days of Darkness” (warning) and “Mystery Babylon” (Maybe USA’s Soon Wrath?) before “Lost Ark? God Forbid” (witness/evidence) and “Prayer over a House” (preparation) ~ there was this event on November 14, 2012:

    During a mid-week bible study, within a little church in a small Iowa town ~ two Believers shared Scriptures the Lord gave us to read (words of knowledge) and then the Lord came to us a message.

    That evening (only 6 of us attending this bible study), one woman said the Lord led her to read John 4:34-38, that week and she wanted to share this with us. (Please read those verses but this is the “key” verse.

    “…”Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the
    harvest’?…”

    When she finished reading those verses, I recognized the phrase “harvest in 4 months” saying, “I can add to those verses. The Lord gave me Joel 2:21-24 over a year ago.” (Please read those verses in King James or New King James.)

    I said, “these words of knowledge (both sets of verses), tell me that there will be a revival coming in 4 months (November 14 to March 14 is 4 months almost to the day of this bible study), which is the first month in the Hebrew calendar [Nisan].

    Then, after the reading/comprehending the connections between OT and NT verses – it was later that evening during prayer time when the Lord entered our room. This is how I know it was the Lord and what He told us.

    My heart became “big” and “warm”, the room became “full” like I was underwater (scuba diving experience), without the ear pressure; the Pastor began to thank the Lord for His presence; the woman who read from John began speaking in tongues; then, the Pastor interpreted – “the Lord says to prepare strategically.”

    Once the Pastor spoke – the room and my heart returned to “normal”.

    I then said to Pastor: “I know what the Lord is telling us” (John and Joel
    verses included).

    “The foolish will be turning to the wise asking “tell me about Jesus!” This is not just about a community or region, this is worldwide”.

    3 people were involved with this experience – not one individual (“know it all DJ”) or just some “emotional pastor seeking revival” or some “holy roller blabbering woman”.

    3 out of 6 who gathered together in spirit and truth, within a small, humble little church building on a Wednesday evening were present and received the Word (John 1:1-17).

    We didn’t share our eschatology studies, end times news or deeply held “rapture” belief paradigms. Therefore, what I’ve experienced and comprehend is totality what He has given me.

    What He gives me – I post within Heaven Awaits to the best of my ability, and share with others in various forums, thank you Lord.

    Now, please put the John and Joel Scriptures with the Lord’s message “prepare strategically” next to all the Heaven Awaits topic postings after November 14th and maybe you will understand this is not “The Rapture” coming in Nisan.

    For “rapture” dogma you can read Janet’s “rapture post of the day”.

    Please watch “Daniel’ Timeline” linked within Heaven Awaits. Re-read “Signs in the Heavens” posted within Heaven Awaits. Please, read this link to a message by Derek Prince (pdf).

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=derek%20prince%20angels&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.derekprince.org%2FPublisher%2FFile.aspx%3Fid%3D1000021501&ei=e0EmUd2ODYaKqgH3rYDQBg&usg=AFQjCNFM5fih9rdqOWpr2vhLK_JIhQPl6w&bvm=bv.42661473,d.aWM

    dru, in my opinion, the Lord is telling you that there is a “False Tribulation” – as presented by Pre-Tribbers.

    Don’t believe me, or still wondering? Okay. When the Ark of the Covenant is brought forth within the next 30 days, I’ll be back with a new post offering for Heaven Awaits.

    Until then – with no wasted effort – please “Prepare strategically” your vessel (seek more oil), cover yourself with Armor of Light and the Armor of God. Pray over your house. Remove any root of bitterness and become rooted in love (Hebrews 12:15; Ephesians 4:31; Matthew 6:14-15).

    dru,

    I love the person, but hate the sin (demon). I love the truth but hate false
    teaching, false way, deeds, doctrines. I hate Leviathan, Jezebel, Balaam (see 2 Peter 2 and Jude). Thank you Lord, I cast them out, stomp on them and seek out wolves, praying they are removed from the flock.

    Here is what Jesus says about “hate”:

    “And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars [false teachers]…But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate” (Rev. 2:2-6, NKJV).

    “…Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate” (Rev.2:15, NKJV).

    dru, this is why I “hate” false teachers, false apostles, false prophets, aka “false ways”:

    “From your precepts I gain understanding; this is why I hate every false way” (Psalm 119:104).

    “I hate double minded people, but I love your Torah” (Psalm 119:113).

    “I am your servant; give me understanding, so that I can know your instruction. The time has come for Adonai to act, because they are breaking your Torah. Therefore I love your mitzvot more than gold, more than fine gold. Thus I direct my steps by [your] precepts; every false way I hate” (Psalm 119:125-128).

    “Make your face shine on your servant, and teach me your laws. Rivers of tears flow down from my eyes, because they don’t observe your Torah” (Psalm 119:135-136, CJB).

    My heart does break (rivers of tears) frequently for hungry souls fed with so much leaven in the Bread of life. Seems many evangelical churches should be called bakeries for the volume of leaven applied in “sermons”, “messages” and what passes as “worship”.

    My heart breaks over the flock. Deliverance and seeking the Holy Spirit is void in the USA church. Maybe present somewhere, but not widely evident in the USA (Babylon; judgment in one hour?)

    James,

    Nisan begins March 12th and ends April 10, 2013. This is not “setting a day or the hour”. But, Barry does arrive in Jerusalem the day after winter and before Sabbath (Matthew 24). That is no coincidence. His visit is not associated with a rapture event.

    If you’d watch Daniel’s timeline produced in 2005 posted on Youtube in 2009 – maybe you would “see” the timeline unfold. On 10/09/09 “he” receives a “crown”. Then, 3.5 Hebrew calendar years later, “he” arrives the day after winter and before Sabbath? What are the odds?

    Da Pope retires and “the last” Pope is “voted in” before Passover 2013? Really?

    “Prepare strategically” for the harvest (John 4 and Joel 2). But, this comes with “great testing” as we’ve read in Marianne’s dream and the book of Revelation. “Woe to those who are pregnant…” (Luke 21:23-24).

    As for the Philly church, I believe that church is not “ruptured” but protected (escape) as we read in Luke 21:36.

    dru, what is coming is truly known in part. The Lord reveals what and when, little by little. Marianne’s dreams are just one resource (test the spirits?)

    I rely on the Word, His voice (“my sheep know my voice”), resources like Marianne’s posted dreams and mine, a few teachers of the Word (Derek Prince, Mark Blitz are just two) and Believers that the Lord has put in to my life only within the last 3 years. You’ve got your “resources” and the Word too. God Bless you!

    One of the biggest unknowns for everyone are the 7 Thunders within Revelation. Please read the Derek Prince letter (pdf) for some very good insights.

    More later…a blizzard is coming. Maybe I can reply again Saturday.

    Blessings
    Psalm 80

    • how do the sheep prepare?

      How do the Sheep Prepare?

      When the flock becomes the prey – attacks will come suddenly

      When the flock becomes the prey

    • Dj,
      You did not address the question I posted above. This is important.

      “I will throw this bone out to you though, which I also sent to accepted personally, In matthew 24:15 there is a bracketted statement which reads ” whoso reads shall understand” This statement can be also translated as “whoso distinguishes shall perceive”. This is of course describing the abomination of desolation, which is described in two places in daniel 9:27, and 11:31 ff. There is also the Son of perdition….Man of sin, and then the Lawless one described in the 2 Thess. 2 passage. Have you tried to distinguish between these two?? Then you may perceive what he has given me to perceive.”

      I am not going to try and convince you to believe this. I was hoping you would do the homework and see for yourself. Man has put together what was supposed to be distinct, and separated what was supposed to be put together. As Accepted has pointed this passage has overtones of divorce in it (2 thess. 2.). Who is it that “misses the mark”, and is divorced. “To be or not to be….?That is the question….”In keeping with the shakespeare theme.

  283. page on rome:

    http://doubleportioninheritance.blogspot.ca/

  284. page on illuminati

    http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1859.cfm

  285. I wouldn’t put any stock in this web site. I hear that the Freemasons and the Bilderbergs are combining forces and will soon secretly wipe out the illuminati.
    Besides, no one can create a hurricane unless they can heat the oceans artificially and even setting off thousands of underwater nuclear bombs wouldn’t do the trick. To think that there are a couple dozen evil geniuses out there in some secret underground lair, turning a few knobs and creating weather at will is pure fantasy.
    If such technology exists the Iranians or the Russians would be controlling the planet already. This is just another scare tactic, like the Mayan prophecy and a giant planet hurtling toward earth. They want to twist people to their own wills and sell you books and survival products, based on lies.
    These are no different that the snake-oil salesmen of the old west or the medical quacks that have been selling bogus medical devices for a hundred years.
    Like P.T. Barnum once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”
    He really knew what he was talking about.

  286. I believe the woman is Islam also.
    Zechariah 5 describes 3 women (churches). Two of the women represent the Christians and the Jews. The third is evil and represents Islam

    Zechariah 5:3 “This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side (of their scroll); and everyone that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.”

    5:9 ..”.there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork (symbolising good birds who are good mothers): and they lifted up the ephah (containing the evil woman) … Whither do these two bear the ephah?…To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.”.

    ” and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah…this is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.” Zechariah 5:6-8.

    Shinar has nothing to do with the Catholic Church but has everything to do with Babylon.

  287. Chris, actually, according to the Old Testament, storks are “unclean” birds, and therefore, probably don’t represent Christians and Jews. They are two evil women (symbolic) who carry the wicked woman in the ephah back to Babylon. (The ephah and the lead weight have to do with an economic system and shows the connection between the world government, religion and economy which is destroyed in Revelation 18, and is replaced by the Beast System.
    The whore, Babylon, is not only Islam. It is a world religious system. All religions have their roots in Babylon, for from Babel, they spread out over the face of the earth. Today the world is trying to rebuild the Tower of Babel. The Ecumenical movement and the World Council of Churches, which is connected to the United Nations, is the beginning of what will become Babylon, the Whore. All religions of the world will be united under one head, probably the Pope, who is the False Prophet.
    The Ten Kings represent the New World Order, or global government. Out of that New World Order, the Beast, and eleventh “horn” and the eighth “head,” will arise. They will give their power to him.
    And all religions of the world are looking for a “Messiah.” Their Messiah will be the Beast, the Antichrist, who is the eighth king that will ascend out of the Abyss. (Actually, he will be a man possesed by Apollyon, a demon who ascends out of the Abyss.) The Pope will convince the world to worship the Beast.
    The Beast is not Rome, or any power that existed at the time of John’s writing. Rome is the 6th head of the Beast, but John says, “The Beast that was, is not, and will ascend…is an eighth king. During the time of John’s writing, the Beast “is not.” It can’t be Rome (or any kingdom that he supposedly was transported to “in the Spirit.” So that leaves us with a choice. The Beast was…either Babylon, Medo-Persia, or Greece. Interestingly, John says the Beast looks like Greece, has the feet of Medo-Persia, and speaks like Babylon. Hmmm…all the territories that these kingdoms once covered…are Muslim.

    • good point about the storks

    • Hi Todd,
      Do you actually think that Islam is going to worship anything but Allah? They will take over the world for Allah or die trying. Actually it does say something to that effect in Ezekiel 38 and 39. God says He’ll do it with a gigantic earthquake (very similar to Revelation 16 that destroys Babylon) complete with fire and brimstone. I mean really, just how many earthquakes can this old earth stand that knocks down every single wall and shakes down every mountain.

      One earthquake, one God, one false god claiming to be God from the temple mount, ruling by terror via his governemtn/religion giving him voice. That would be Allah. That would be about a third of the trees and a third of the population, btw.

      • Chris,
        I’m not sure I understood your post, whether you agree that Islam is the Beast, or you don’t.

        No, Muslims will never worship anyone but Allah… technically. (Even though their religious writings encourage them to pray and seek intercession from Mohammed- who they claim ascended to heaven on a white horse. Very similar to Mary worship, the Assumption, etc. in the Catholic Church! By the way, they do show very high regard for Mary, and Jesus- as a prophet- and many even pray the Rosary, and make pilgrimages to Marian shrines. ) If worship can be defined in this way, as religious loyalty, then I believe it is very possible that they would worship their Mahdi in this way. The Bible does say that they worshiped the Dragon – Allah?AND they worshiped the Beast – Mahdi?
        But the question whether Muslims will worship anyone other than Allah is moot. The world will be FORCED to worship the Beast, or they will be killed, beheaded. So, I’m sure most will follow willingly, many will follow reluctantly, and some won’t follow at all.
        I believe the Antichrist, with the military power of the ten kings behind him, is going to conquer most, if not all, of the Middle East. If you read all of the prophecies about the judgement of the nations in the Bible, they are mainly Islamic countries, and it is against these nations, the Beast kingdom, Babylon, that God directs His judgement.
        The Bible seems to indicate that the Antichrist will be of Jewish, Syrian, and Roman descent, and that he will show no regard for the God of his forefathers. Since all major religions are looking for their respective Messiah’s, he will present himself as Jesus, Mahdi, Maitreya, Kalki, Saoshyant, etc. – a messiah made to order! I don’t see how the Antichrist or his Kingdom can be Roman, because John says the Beast “IS NOT” at the time of his writing, which is during the Roman Empire. Whoever he is, he will be followed by all religions.
        Whether the New world order will be worldwide, or regional, as in a Mediterranean Union (which joins the EU with the Middle East and North Africa) is another question. I believe it will be worldwide. If it is only regional, then it fulfills the “iron legs/toes” which would represent ALL of the area once covered by all four Daniel 2 kingdoms, from Portugal to India, from Britain to Egypt. If it is worldwide, it could explain why the two legs of Daniel and Revelation appear to be both Greek and Roman. The majority of the Western world is Greco-Roman.
        As for how many earthquakes can the world stand? Just one. I suspect the earthquake in Ezekiel and the earthquake in Revelation are one and the same. After all, it does say that after the Gog Magog war, many nations and Israel will KNOW that God is THE LORD. So it is probably one in a series of battles at the end of the Tribulation, leading up to Armageddon.

  288. Hi Marianne,
    This is where my interpretation of the stork came from.
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H2624&t=KJV
    The stork is the pious bird, according to this, and the ostrich is the impious bird.
    The only woman that is called evil in Zechariah 5 is the third one.

  289. The definition of “pious” in two different dictionaries:
    1
    a : marked by or showing reverence for deity and devotion to divine worship
    b : marked by conspicuous religiosity
    2
    : sacred or devotional as distinct from the profane or secular : religious

    3
    : showing loyal reverence for a person or thing : dutiful
    4
    a : marked by sham or hypocrisy
    b : marked by self-conscious virtue : virtuous
    5
    : deserving commendation : worthy

    1.
    having or showing a dutiful spirit of reverence for God or an earnest wish to fulfill religious obligations.
    2.
    characterized by a hypocritical concern with virtue or religious devotion; sanctimonious.
    3.
    practiced or used in the name of real or pretended religious motives, or for some ostensibly good object; falsely earnest or sincere: a pious deception.
    4.
    of or pertaining to religious devotion; sacred rather than secular: pious literature.
    5.
    having or showing appropriate respect or regard for parents or others.

    These are NOT descriptions of a Christian. They are descriptions of works orientated religion (dutiful religion, conspicuous religiosity, self-conscious virtue, dutiful reverence for God, hypocritical, pretence, religious devotion, sanctimonious, etc.)

    Again, the two evil religious women are carrying an another evil woman in an ephah. This symbolizes a religious economic system, i.e. Babylon, the Whore.

  290. Re. Zechariah chapter 5, I wondered what it meant for many years, until I read The Mystery of Iniquity by Michael Rood.
    Chapter 9 in his book is called Zechariah’s Thermonuclear War.

    I will not go into all the reasons for the translation correction, but when you do what I believe is a correct translation, as Michael Rood did, you find that verse 7 is actually talking about a FIRE OFFERING inside a CONTAINER, and NOT a woman sitting inside a basket or ephah.

    There is a LEAD opening (verse 8). Lead shields radiation. The flying scroll — or roll — is actually a description of an intercontinental ballistic missile 10.5 meters (34.32 feet) long and 1.7 meters (5.5 feet) in DIAMETER (not 10 cubits WIDE). It is possible the missiles have “stork like” wings.

    Read the whole account using these keys to understanding, and see if verses 3 and 4 (the curse that goes over the whole land and consumes the timber and stones) doesn’t give you goosebumps!

    • Hi Todd,
      I agree with what you said about the earthquake being one incident. And in that case, the enemies of Jerusalem in Ezekiel 38 were Islamic. I’m not sure Magog is Russia, it could very well be Turkey which has just voted in an Islamic extremist who sees himself as becoming the head Caliph for their jihad on Israel. I think he could gather together the nations mentioned in Ezekiel pretty easily once Obama’s Arab Spring has given the Muslim Brotherhood all the power it needs.
      Rome? It hasn’t returned. The Ottoman Empire however has recovered from a deadly head wound to everyone’s amazement. Have you seen Dubay lately? Somebody got some money there.

      Zechariah 5 Sorry no goosebumps here. It’s about 3 “women”, 3 world religions. One of the religions has a scroll that is a curse. Let me see, could it be the Koran? It’s not the Torah, and it’s not the Bible. And according to it you can be cut off for stealing. I thnk maybe Mohammid thought that meant cutting off limbs instead of the way Messiah was cut off in Daniel 9 per the 69th week.
      Context is everything, and Zechariah 4 tells who the two witnesses are that stand by the Lord pouring their golden oil of the Holy Spirit out of their throats. The image is of a candlestick (Christian) flanked by Olives (Jews)on either side. From this passage God has no problem with the Bible or the Torah. Contrast that with the flying scroll in the next chapter and it becomes clear that he’s not real fond of the third woman.

      Pious was a good thing back in King James’ day. We Americans think of it as a little snooty. I think I’d rather be pious than impious. Wouldn’t you?

      Gotta run.

      • Magog was originally in Turkey. since then, emigration proceeded northward.

        • Magog could be Russia. The agreement Russia has with Iran could be the “hook in the jaw” that draws Russia into the war.

      • Chris,
        I believe Magog is Turkey. Gog is probably a demonic king. I do think EU is probably the BEGINNING of the Beast kingdom. The EU wants to incorporate northern Africa and the Middle East into their Union (some say that could take up to 10 years or more to happen. THAT would be a revived Rome/Babylon/Medo-Persia/Greece kingdom. The EU is probably one iron leg of Daniel’s image and the Muslim nations are the other leg. The Ten toes haven’t arrive yet.
        According to reports, anti-semitism is on an exponential rise in the EU because of the influx of Muslim. This, of course, explains the persecution of God’s people during the Tribulation.
        As for the candlestick and olive tree, they BOTH represent Christians. The candlestick is actually the body of Christ. He is the VINE, the center candle, we are the BRANCHES, the 6 candles fed with oil, the Holy Spirit, from the center candle. The Olive tree is Christ, with the tame branches (BELIEVING Jews, and the wild branches grafted in (believing Gentiles). We all bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit (olive oil). The Two Witnesses in Revelation are two individuals, just like Zerubabbel and Joshua were. Whatever the two women are, they have a part in setting up the Babylonian system. (They are probably angels).
        As I explained in another post when comparing Zechariah with Revelation:
        I believe the woman in the ephah is mystery Babylon, an evil religion. She is being carried in an ephah ( a unit of measure used in commerce ) with a talent of lead ( a weight measure used in commerce). This ephah and lead talent represent economic Babylon (Revelation 18). Economic Babylon, the Beast with his “mark,” carries this religion, mystery Babylon, on its back. Today we see this system beginning to form in the United Nations/World Council of Churches/Ecumenical movement. The evil religion is NOT Islam. It is a world religion comprising ALL religions. If you study Theosophy, New Age Occultism, etc. you will see that the world is being set up for the arrive of the “World Teacher.” This world teacher will be a (false) messiah to nominal Christians and Jews, the Mahdi to Islam, the Maitreya to Buddhism, Kalki to Hindus, etc, etc.
        It is THIS religion God is not fond of, not just Islam. But this is NOT the Beast religion yet. The New World Order (the TEN KINGS) and the World Religion (the WHORE OF BABYLON) must for first. THEN, the Antichrist rises to power at first, peaceably, out of the NWO. The Abomination that causes desolation occurs, which sparks religious wars and chaos. The Beast steps forward, apparently haven survived a “fatal wound” which he received in the wars, the Ten Kings pledge their power to the Beast and destroy the New World Order and the Whore, and replace them with the Beast kingdom/Beast worship, and the “mark.”)

        ( I believe the Abomination that cause desolation may be the Jews attempt to lay a cornerstone of their Temple on the “wing” or corner of the Temple Mount. After all, the institution of the sacrificial system would be an abomination and an affront to God, since Jesus became the FINAL sacrifice, and destroyed the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. to prove it, and became the TRUE cornerstone of the Temple. An attempt to lay a corner stone would definitely spark a massive religious war which would lead to desolation.
        So the Antichrist set his tents between the Holy Mountain and the Sea, allows the Jews to lay the cornerstone, the King of the South storms out against him, etc. Just a theory).
        As for pious vs. impious, I choose neither. I want to be Christlike.

    • Todd,
      PS But it wouldn’t surprise anyone at this point if Iran was stockpiling nuclear weapons. Maybe that’s the rapture we’re looking forward to. Whatever. Come Lord Jesus.

      • Chris,
        I’m sure they are, with help from Russia.
        (I believe the Rapture is after the Tribulation, though).

  291. I have several of Michael Rood’s books and videos, including the ne mentioned. i may be wrong, but I don’t think his theory works. (A lot of his theories don’t). ( Out of all the people who have studied the subject, Michael Rood is the only one who figured out the truth?) For one thing, Zechariah was having a vision. He saw what he was describing. He wouldn’t have seen a fire in a warhead unless it was exploding at the time he was looking at it. It also appears as if there is writing on the scroll, since it says the thief and the one who makes a false oath will be cut off, according to (what is written) on each side of the scroll. Similar to Revelation scroll with writing on both sides. And the word “curse” implies an oath being made. (and it is directed toward the thief and maker of a false oath). Also, he saw a lead cover removed and wickedness cast into the supposed thermonuclear device. Fire would come put, not be put in. And how would Zechariah know the cover was lead, unless he recognized what it was? The lead talent (a unit of measure) was then cast (thrown) over the opening of the ephah, with the supposed fire inside. And it was taken to Babylon to be established ( the word implies being fixed and stable, lasting). The destruction of timber and stone could have been caused by an explosive device, but I don’t think so. It says the object remains in the house and destroys it. nuclear warheads don’t destroy houses by remaining in them.
    I think Zechariah knew what he was looking at. I think he was looking at an ephah, which is a unit of dry measure, and a lead weight, also used to measure. Zechariah saw an evil woman being carried back to Babylon by an evil economic system, just like John saw an evil woman, mystery Babylon being carried by an evil Beast – economic Babylon, Rev 18. And I think there might be a another parallel with Revelation. Immediately after this passage, Zechariah talks about the four horsemen. In revelation, the third horse is famine, and it mentions measures of wheat and barley for a penny, and don’t hurt the oil or wine.
    So I think Zechariah talks about the woman being carried to Babylon in the ephah. John records the meaning of Zechariah’s vision- the formation of a Babylonian religious and economic system, the curse, and the destruction of the religious/economic system- no more curse. It is being carried BACK to Babylon because it was, now is not, and yet will come.

    I think Michael Rood might have a Rood Awakening coming himself. 🙂

  292. Interesting. But Turkey and that area are descibed as part of Gog and magog. They may well be destroyed on the outset of the tribulation. There is too much to explain in this response but i will say,,,,,,,not even the enemy understands who the enemy is. And all the world wondered after the beast.

    • Hi Thomas,
      If no one understands who the beast is, then how is it that they all worship it? Rev. 13:4 “They worshipped the beast saying who is like unto the beast? and who is able to make war with him?”
      The way I am reading Revelation 13 it says that there is a beast, a conglomerate of the beasts found in Daniel 7 and 8. Those were Middle Eastern.
      The dragon is also worshipped which gives the beast its power. It’s satanic.
      It was given a voice to speak blasphemies. There are blasphemies written all over the Dome of the Rock like: God has no Son, there is no God but allah and Mohammid is his messenger, etc. with it’s members chanting the same, giving the beast its voice.
      As far as the 42 months of blashphemies and power, give those months a day for one year as in Ezekiel and Daniel, and you will end up at the same year as the year when the Dome was “set up”. Start from the year 1967 when Jerusalem was emancipated and work your way backwards.
      The first beast had a head wound, Mohammid, but the head wound has been healed, Islam has returned to its former glory even though the false prophet is dead.

      • Chris,
        Revelation says the Beast has the appearance of a Leopard (Greece). The Beast is Hellenistic, i.e. the western world, EU and the U.S.
        War between the western world and Islam will probably give rise to the Antichrist.

        • Hi Todd,
          I’m seeing the Lion as Babylon.
          The Bear as the Medo Persians.
          The Leopard as Greece…all in chronological order and looking forward from Daniel’s perspective.

          Then when you get to Revelation it is exactly the same kingdoms but in reverse.
          Leopard
          Bear
          Lion… according to John who would be seeing things looking back in time, reverse chronology.

          And the fourth beast is just like Nebuchadnezzar’s statue dream that Daniel interpreted. In that dream the fourth kingdom has two legs. Rome had two parts, the East and the West, the Eastern leg being in Istanbul, Turkey and became the Ottoman Empire which far outlasted the Roman leg.

  293. White smoke came out in the Vatican now so they have choosen a new Pope.

    • Did you note the time the smoke started? It was 7:06 local time. That’s the same as 6:66.
      Weird, eh?

      • you are wierd for saying that. I agree with adam on this point.

      • James,
        I John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.”
        So the Pope doesn’t qualify. You have to find an entire group that denies that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ.

        • I never said the pope was an Antichrist. He will however be the False Prophet. The man of sin (commandment breaker) fits him perfectly.
          Plus, how can an Antichrist claim to be God? We all know Christ is God, so the one who claims to be God can’t be an Antichrist, can he? He also can’t be Muslim since no true Muslim can claim to be God. No Muslim and especially no Christian would be fooled by such a claim, and it is said that “he” will almost fool the very elect, meaning that most Christians WILL be fooled, so a Muslim is out of the question, unless you take most Christians for total idiots.
          However, EVERYONE will love the new pope and nothing he does will ever seem out of character. 1.2 billion Catholics already consider him true to his title, the substitute for the son of God. He’s the only person on earth that holds the title of a God and gets away with it without a notice.
          And yet everyone is looking for a Muslim to take his place. Just like that. All of a sudden – boom! An unknown Muslim becomes beloved by 2 billion Christians, and more.
          So who do you have in mind for this charismatic Muslim leader? Since he should be coming to power soon, he must already be rising to power and popularity, so who do you like for the job?
          Satan is smart and clever. He knows who he can fool and just how to fool them. And he’s already got 99% of Christians fooled, so I’d say he’s on track to fulfill prophecy fairly soon.

          • it does not say in the bible that people love the antichrist.

            he is a fierce leader, who abandons the faith of his fathers, which could be any religion, and declares himself god. he worships the god of forces instead.

  294. James
    You are obsessed with getting 666 to do with the Vatican. 666 is a chip from the Federal Reserve. Nice thing was that I had a right to st. Malachy only predicted 111 popes from his time. The 112th was put there later by others. No Petrus Romanus. This Pope will probably be replaced by Jesus.

    • Hey, the entire Catholic church will be replaced by Jesus, lock, stock and barrel.
      No more popes, no more Vatican.. The False Prophet and the beast will be destroyed.

  295. May be a good pope and like PETER. So he may be “Peter the Romans”.
    Simple Life, Help Poor

    http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/14/world/europe/vatican-new-pope/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

    The 76-year-old, who served as the archbishop of Buenos Aires, is the first pope to take the name in honor of St. Francis of Assisi, revered among Catholics for his work with the poor.
    The pontiff is considered a straight shooter who calls things as he sees them, and a follower of the church’s most social conservative wing

    As a cardinal, he clashed with the government of Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner over his opposition to gay marriage and free distribution of contraceptives.

    He chose to live in an apartment rather than the archbishop’s palace, passed on a chauffeured limousine, took the bus to work and cooked his own meals.

    As a Jesuit, Francis is a member of the Society of Jesus, one of the biggest and most important orders in the church.
    Jesuits are recognized for their exceptional educational institutions and focus on social justice.

    “Jesuits are characterized by their service to the Church … but trying to avoid positions of power,” said Lombardi, who is also a Jesuit. “I am absolutely convinced that we have a Pope who wants to serve.
    “His election was the election of a rejection of power”

    • I agree, he will be a wonderful pope. He will bring many Protestants back to the Vatican. He will be beloved by many and just when you think he couldn’t get any better he will actually perform miracles in the sight of man. The whole world will marvel after him. Most Christians will believe he is as close to God as a person can get.
      And therein lies the danger…

      • This Pope will probably be Pope very short time. thats why st. malachy didn’t predict him. He will not bring many protestants to Catholism. He will not be beloved and he will not perform any miracles. James you are so way of you can be. Jesus will soon take over in the vatican and I must tell something funny. Jesus has a son who is born on 13 march so they elected a Pope on his birthday. His name is Leo and Leo is the most common Pope name. He is born on a sunday and sundays are our special sabbat days. He is born on virgin mary announcement day. he will probably take over when Jesus dies and the pope is the stand in so his son will be a kind of a Pope.

        • So you think Jesus, our Lord, is going to die? So I guess there is no such thing as eternal life. After all, if Jesus can die again, what hope do any of us sinners have?
          Your statement is as blasphemous as the rest of the Catholic church so you fit in pretty well.
          No wonder the church will have to be destroyed before the marriage of Christ to His bride.
          Thanks for making my point for me.

          • James
            His body will die but his soul will live for eternity. When we are baptized we have the rigt to continue living after death and that is our soul who will continue to live not the body. Everything in the NT is not true. It is your Church that will be destroyed and the Pope is not the man of sin and not false prophet since he never says thing will happen in future and it never happens.

  296. St. Malachy’s list: Peter the Roman.

    “In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there shall reign Peter the Roman who will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the terrible judge will judge the people.”

    Daniel:11:31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.”

    Jesus told us to be careful: Holy Bible: Matthew 24:5:
    “many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. ”
    —————————————————————————————–
    All web sites are not true. (“many will come in my name”)
    Try to deceive us.
    I think, new pope is good ( “who will feed his flock amid many tribulations ” )and seven-hilled city ( Vatican ) will be destroyed by Anti-Christ
    ( Notradamus – “mabus” ) in future.

    • So do you think the Antichrist is Muslim? Maybe Iran will march thru Europe and attack Rome? And what about the False Prophet? Also Muslim? Maybe French,,,
      Anyway, tell us more what you think. I’m just curious. Maybe you have something here…

      • unless your internet and TV are off, the muslims are already in Europe and rioting for superiority and demanding more rights.So Europe is already under attack.

        • Those protesters are interested in changing laws to put them more in line with Sharia law. They are not protesting the Vatican. However, someday they will become a problem and that is when the European Union will place the pope in charge of all religious matters in order to counter the Muslim threat. He will require mandatory Sunday worship and will forbid Friday and Saturday worship and if you do not comply you will be denied a business license by the host country.
          So yes, I am watching these protests carefully as they are tending to fulfill my understanding of prophesy.
          Time will tell which of us is correct.

          • james

            since I do not have a business this would not affect me anyhow.

            personally, I do not think anyone cares about following the pope, except the Italians.

          • You don’t believe there will be a global government. How would this “Sunday Law”‘affect anyone outside the EU?

            • The Sunday blue laws were common in the US when I was a kid, and J.F.K. (a catholic) forced all government agencies to close on Sunday to honor the false Sabbath. That is still in force today. So if the pope forces Sunday worship on all Catholics, He’s already got the majority of the worlds Christians in his hip pocket, and more will follow in the coming years.
              So the “buy and sell” scenario may not unfold in the way most people are expecting.
              After all, if we are all expecting it, how can the whole world follow the beast? No Christian will ever accept a chip, so Satan would be foolish to use that ploy. But while we are all waiting for a chip, he will slip in another type of mark that nobody will recognize, and that’s how he will get us.
              BOOM!

              • Actually, he doesn’t have everybody in his hip pocket. The Pope has no authority over the U.S. government or over any other government. Kennedy was the U.S. President. The U.S. and the entire world are becoming increasingly anti-Christian. (Not that the Papacy is Christian, but the world sees it as Christian). You are so focused on your Sunday Law myth that you can’t see the big picture, or maybe you don’t want to see it. The Catholic Church is not the Whore the MOTHER of Harlots. She IS a Harlot, but only a DAUGHTER of Babylon. ALL world religions are daughters of Babylon. The Ecumenical Movement is the beginning of the Whore. Eventually, it will include all religions. Every major religion is waiting for their “messiah” to appears: Christians – Jesus; Jews – the Messiah; Theosophy/New Age – Maitreya/Teacher; Buddhism – the Fifth Buddha ; Islam – Twelfth Mahdi ; Zoroastrianism – Saoshyant; Hinduism – Kalki; etc. The world world will become embroiled in religious wars concerning Jerusalem, the brudensome stone. While the world is crying “Peace, peace,” the Antichrist will appear and through deceit and flattery will rise to power. The Ten Leaders of the New World Order will give him their power. He will solve the Middle East “problem.” He will apparently recieve a deadly wound appear to rise from the dead and the world will,”wonder after the Beast.” He will become empowered by Satan, destroy the Whore, the worlds religions will see him as their respective “messiah” and the False Prophet will promote his worship. Meanwhile anti-Christian laws (not
                a Sunday Law) and persecution of Christians will increase. The False prophet will institute the Mark of the Beast, and that’s how he will get unbelievers. BOOM!

                God’s wrath is not against Sunday worshipers. It is against Satan/Baal worshipers, those who deny and reject Messiah, those who put their trust in the things of this world.

              • the buy and sell prohibition would have to be 7 days a week, not just sunday.

                I will shop on friday or monday 🙂

          • So, you haven’t answered the question. How will the Pope enforce his law in the U.S.? The Blue Laws were national, so they could be enforced throughout the U.S. The Papacy has no authority here, so unless he rules a global government, he can’t force anyone here to worship on Sunday. (The Blue Laws had absolutely nothing to do with forcing anyone to worship on Sunday, so they have no relevance anyway.)
            And tell me how 666, the number of the Beast’s name has anything to do with Sunday Worship.

            • Todd,
              Let me turn the tables a bit on you and ask you how you expect a Muslim Antichrist will take over every government on earth, then abolish all currency, close all banks and chip 8 billion people to enforce his “mark”? And how will he convince the whole world to worship him and believe he is God?
              Talk about crazy expectations!

              • james
                if obama is a muslim he can be that man but news here tells us he is Christian.

                • he makes fun of jesus and christians..so he is fake

                • Dear, ADAM

                  O-dumbo is what is known as a JACK-MUSLIM. A secular-progressive, afirmative action, welfare whore( bible definition= LOCUST), Boyking, fools MESSIAH. His DRUNKEN, WHORE MONGERING mohammedan daddy, gave satans spawn to his trashy hippie mommy. Stanley ” The STEAMER” Dunham later married INDONESIAN (muslim) businessman LOLO SOETORO, who legally adopted little BARRY, making him an INDONESIAN CITIZEN. The only legitamate school record on your MESSIAH( “O”), that I have seen , has Barry Soetero enrolled as a MUSLIM in a Jakarta Catholic grade school circa 1968. For some reason the rest of his SCHOOL & Immigration records remain sealed by EXECUTIVE ORDER. The Big Lie?

              • just look at washington dc

                • I already now that the anticrist is emperor Nero and he is reborn and his name now is silvio berlusconi. the scripture tells us he is from Rome and sb is from Rome. I’m just playing with James.

              • I agree that the true Church is a remnant, but the remnant aren’t Judaizers.
                I don’t believe the Antichrist will be a Muslim. The Antichrist turns his back on the faith of his forefathers and worships the god of fortresses. He will be all things to all people. Herod is a foreshadow of the Antichrist. He was of Idumean descend, was a Jewish convert, and a Roman citizen. As for how he will acheive world power, are you really that ignorant of what’s happening in the world? All around you a world socialist government, a world economy, and a world religion are being formed. Maybe you should take off your Sabbatarian-colored glasses so you can see.
                I didn’t say belief that the Pope was Antichrist was invented E.G. White. I said YOUR theory was. I’ve read the Great Controversy, and your post is nothing more than a rehashing of the book, filled with false dates and false events created to fit the supposed biblical prophecies. I don’t have to refute your theory. The history books
                already do.
                So let me turn the tables back on you. Again, how will a Pope enforce your Sunday law in the U.S. and throughout the rest of the world?

                • Well Todd,
                  The last (8th) kingdom of Revelation will be a restored Holy Roman Empire combining the restored Roman empire (European Union) and the Vatican. If the pope issues a requirement for Sunday worship only (Pope John Paul II already drew up such a document in 2002) it would become law throughout the kingdom and the Catholic world. As for enforcement, Vatican storm troopers perhaps? Same methods you think the Antichrist will use to enforce his mark on the entire planet.
                  In my version, the “whole world” only refers to the Christian world, or God’s people. Other religions are not God’s concern (unless they attack Israel). They will be straightened out during the millennium. The Christian church however, must be cleaned up before the marriage and everything apostate must be removed before Christ returns.
                  As far as a “world socialist government” all around us, where exactly is this government and what countries does it control? Who is its leader? Does it have a name? Everyone here is claiming they see the New World Order already in force and many say Obama is in charge. Hell, he can’t even get past the republicans in congress let alone control the rest of the planet. I just don’t see it because it is not actually there. Like planet Nibiru, it is just in peoples imaginations and part of wishful thinking, hoping and praying that their interpretation will soon come true.
                  40 years ago Jack Van Impe was claiming the New World Order would arise any day and the Antichrist was rising to power as he spoke. I believed it for ten years or so, then got tired of waiting and began looking for a better explanation. I found one. My interpretation has been steadily unfolding, piece by piece while I’m still waiting for a New World Order and One-World Government with an Antichrist dictator in charge.
                  So where is all that? Look up the UN and see how many countries there are. Even more than there were 40 years ago in fact. Even the mighty Soviet Union couldn’t keep its empire together. So a new world empire, run by a dictator? Not gonna happen.
                  Aren’t the Muslim countries getting rid of all their dictators in favor of democracy? And you think they will all get together, conquer the rest of the world, then install a new dictator? Yeah right.
                  I’m not buying it until I see far more evidence than YouTube rumors.
                  Same goes for nibiru.

                  • james

                    Muslim governments that were at peace with Israel are being replaced with more radical dictatorships dedicated to the destruction of Israel .

                    They are acting under the unity of the Muslim brotherhood,, so yes, there is a coalition if Islamic nations.

                    they need this unity against Israel so their Imam Mahdi can arise.

  297. […] for the “seven-hilled city” applies as much, or more, to JERUSALEM as to Rome! (And this page lists the other possibilities, including Constantinople in modern-day Islamic Turkey – […]

  298. The seven Heads seven MOUNTAINS (kingdoms) on which the Woman sits. And they are seven KINGS (human rulers)…The Beast who comes out of the Abyss (Kingdoms don’t come out of Abysses, but demon princes do – prince of Persia, prince of Grecia, etc) is an eighth KING (human ruler ) and is of the seven. If your mind were not clouded by preconceived ideas about the Sabbath, you would be able to see this. When the foundation is askew, so is the entire building.

    The eighth KING is worshiped. The Man of Sin (lawlessness) is worshiped. The First Beast is the Man of Sin, the Antichrist.

    You ask, “How can the Antichrist claim to be God? We all know Christ is God.” Well, it’s called by Paul, the FALLING AWAY or THE APOSTASY. In case you haven’t noticed, there is a massive movement within the Church called Ecumenicism. It has nothing to do with Sunday worship. It has to do with denying the Sovereign Lord who bought us. It’s in the Word Faith Movement, where money is God. It’s in Kingdom now theology, where the Church brings in the Kingdom of God, not Christ. It’s in the Purpose Driven Life, where Rick Warren teaches that prophecy should be ignored because it’s a distraction and that it is the Churches’ responsibilty to bring peace to the world by united all the religions, not Christ’s responsibility by destroying them. It has to do with New Age practices and humanism entering the Church. It has to do with the watering down of God’s Word, such as denying a global flood and acceptance of evolution. It has to with the massive Hebrew Root/Judaizing movement with all it’s false teachers (E.G White, Michael Rood, etc.). It’s about raising the word of men above the Word of God.
    There are MANY ways to deny God, even while proclaiming Him. Many will say on That Day, Lord, Lord. Many will prophesy in His Name and cast out demons. But He will say, “I never knew you.”

    You seem to be under the false impression that people will take the Mark because they will be fooled. No, they will CHOOSE WILLINGLY. If they are fooled, there would be a chance of forgiveness because “they know not what they do.” There will be no repentance and no forgiveness for those who take the Mark. They choose WILLINGLY because they love and trust in the things of the world and can’t bear to give them up.

    The Antichrist will NOT fool the Elect. Most Christians will NOT take the Mark (which is not Sunday worship). Most NOMINAL Christians will take the Mark, those who love the things of this life more than God, and those that refuse to love the truth and delight in wickedness.

    But in fact, a Great Multitude that no One can number from every nation, tribe people and tongue who come out of the Tribulation and wash their robes will NOT take the Mark.

    Yes, maybe everyone will love the new Pope. That is how he or a future Pope convinces the world to worship the Antichrist.

    Marianne is correct. It guess I’ll have to shop on Friday. 🙂

    • Well Todd,
      I understand your interpretation completely. In fact, most people believe as you do. To me it shows how easy it will be for people to have the mark of the beast, since they will actually think the mark is a good thing. (After all, nobody would believe going to church every Sunday could possibly be offensive to God. Its such a silly commandment, right?)
      You all think you have the devil figured out and you’ll be ready for him but in reality he’s got you right where he wants you.

      • And I understand your interpretation completely. It was invented by cult leader and false prophetess E.G. White. The only problem is the entire theory is based on an inconsistent and twisted interpretation of the biblical text, a revision of true history, and a misunderstanding about the covenants of God. I can open any history book (not written by Adventist followers) and prove that the supposed 1260 years of Papal power is a blatent lie, as are the three uprooted horns. Your “perfect” theory is so full of holes, it’s laughable. The 1260 days of Daniel are 1260 days, half of the Seventieth Week, a period called The Time of Jacob’s Trouble and the Great Tribulation. And the Mosaic Law has been made obsolete. The Spiritual has replaced the natural. A New Covenant. True Christians live in God’s rest continuously, not weekly. And no it wasn’t a silly commandment. It was a wonderful commandment because it foreshadowed our eternal rest, which is the reason for everything Jesus has done. He is our
        Rest.

        • Actually millennium y interpretation was invented by Martin Luther. He claimed the pope was the Antichrist / False prophet and that the Catholic church was Babylon of Revelation.
          Your interpretation came later when the pope sent a conclave of priests into seclusion to come up with an alternate interpretation that would get the church off the hook. At first they came up with the idea that the emperor NERO was the Antichrist and that all the prophecy had been fulfilled except for the Second Coming, and that the pope was the substitute for Jesus and that the millennium had begun with pope Peter. Even today the Vatican TV channel claims we are still in the millennium and that the 1000 years only referred to a very long time and that Jesus may not return for another thousand years.
          Well the pope at that time completely rejected the idea and sent them back (for another 20 years) until they cam up with the opposite concept – futurism, where nothing in Revelation has happened yet. The pope bought that idea but no protestant did at the time.
          Fast forward to today and with the help of Hal Lindsey and the Left Behind books, and people like Jack Van Impe (who wrote the screenplay for the movie) modern Protestants have bought the story hook line and sinker, even adding in the rapture concept, just for fun.
          The mark of the beast being Sunday worship was added by the Seventh Day Adventist movement since every other church (including Lutheran) embraces pagan Sunday worship, so it would be impossible for any of these denominations to believe it.
          But remember the true church is just a “remnant” and not the majority of modern Christians, so I’m happy to be in the minority here.
          As for debunking history, I’m sure if you tried, you could get together with a local rabbi and completely debunk the prophecies regarding Jesus. I have seen articles that effectively debunked the entire bible, and some people actually swear by that interpretation.
          So we can all believe what we want, as long as we are prepared to accept another reality if and when it occurs.
          I’m not here to change anyone’s mind in the present. My words are merely to prepare people for events that will happen in the future.
          And so we wait….

          • James
            No Pope will deny that Jesus is son of God so the Pope cant be the antichrist. martin luther was a false teacher driven by satan.
            And Jesus who is in the Vatican now has teached me about the book revelation. God gave Jesus info about what will happen in future and Jesus dreamed about this and John saw Jesus dreams. Rev. is just dreams with some truth in it.
            So forgett it.

            • Hey Adam,
              Next time you see Jesus, give Him my love.
              Thanks.

            • Dear, Adam

              TIME will tell! Good luck, with your JESUS in the VATICAN, theory.

            • Hi Adam,
              You said
              ‘No Pope will deny that Jesus is son of God so the Pope cant be the antichrist.’
              That is absolute nonsense of the highest order!
              It’s important for EVERYONE reading this thread to understand how misleading that comment is.
              The statement is fully refuted by Titus 1:16.
              “They profess that they know God; but in WORKS they deny him, being abominable, and DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.
              If you can’t understand that NOT everyone who comes in Jesus name is righteous or accepted by God, then Satan will deceive you EVERY TIME.

              • Robert B.
                Allah Ahkbar. “THEY profess to know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable , and DISOBEDIENT, and unto every good work reprobate.”

                It’s not the Pope. His pride can’t compete with Allah’s faithful.

                Would the Pope strap dynamite to a child’s chest and tell him or her they are doing god a favor? Would the Pope cut off someone’s hand for stealing his food? Would the Pope hang a homosexual from the gallows? Would the Pope cut someone’s throad for refusing to say that God has no son? Would the Pope promise young men they will get 70 virgins when they get to heaven for killing a Jew or a Christian?

                Allah will not rest until all men, free or bond, small or great, rich or poor, have either converted to Islam or are dead.
                I don’t know where people get the idea that this antichrist will be charismatic? He was and is a brute, a brute who takes women as slaves because Allah says it is their just reward for killing infidels.

                I cannot for the life of me figure out what is so hard about this.

          • James,
            You sure enjoy putting words in people’s mouths and making false assumptions. It’s your way of putting people on the defense, an avoidance tactic. First of all, I’m not a strict futurist, nor am I necessarily Pre-Trib. And I have never seen a Left Behind movie, nor do I have the desire to.

            I’m not writing the following for you, (because I know you won’t accept it) but for all those who are willing and humble enough to learn.
            Most Christian assume that all types and prophecy in the Old Testament are fulfilled once and for all in the New Testament, but we can’t apply western methods of interpretation, based on Greek thought, to an ancient Jewish book. Jesus was a first century Jewish rabbi who taught the same way other rabbis did. So we need to understand how the Jews interpreted the Bible.
            Western Protestants interpret prophecy in one of four different ways: Preterism, Historicism, Idealism, Allegory, or Futurism (or some variation on one.) These have several offshoots (especially regarding the book of Revelation).
            To a Western Gentile mind, one of these four methods, (or a derivative of) is the correct view of all Biblical prophecy. However, a Jew in the first century, as Jesus was Himself, would have seen all four simultaneously. Western ideas of prophecy involve prediction and fulfillment. The Hebrew idea of prophecy is a pattern that is repeated, multiple fulfillments with one ultimate fulfillment. Each of the multiple fulfillments is both a type of, and a lesson on, the ultimate fulfillment. This is why Jesus could say that his generation would not pass until all was fulfilled. It was fulfilled, but it will be fulfilled again in a greater, more complete way.
            An example would be the Abomination that causes Desolation. The literal fulfillment (the peshat) was fulfilled in Antiochus Epiphanes. But this pattern was also fulfilled (the pesher) in 66 A.D. When the Roman army stood “where it ought not.” It was fulfilled again 60 years later when Hadrian built a new city over the ancient land, called it Aelia Capitolina, and crowned it with a temple dedicated to Jupiter. It was also fulfilled during the time of Julian the Apostate, and again with the building of the Dome of the Rock. The final fulfillment will be when the Antichrist desecrates the Temple, as recorded in Daniel 9 and Revelation 13:15.
            Something many Christians don’t understand is that the Church was a mystery in the old Testament. It was hidden in God until the fulness of time. This is why many prophecies of Jesus’ two comings are combined into one passage. For example, in Isaiah 9 we read “For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given, and the government will be on His shoulders…” Prophecies about Jesus’ first and second coming are combined into one sentence. Because of this, the ancient Rabbis actually believed there would be two Messiahs, one who would suffer and die, and one who would be king. When the prophets prophesied, it was as if they were standing on a mountain range with mountain peaks in the distance. The prophets saw them as if they were in close proximity, when in reality, there was a great valley between them, seen only as you get closer to then. That valley is the Church Age. Why was the Church Age hidden? Two reasons:

            1) None of the princes of this world knew; for if they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory.

            2) He said, “Go and tell this people:“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

            “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

            “…because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles.”

            This “hidden time” can also be seen in the Book of Daniel. For example, Daniel 11:28-35 talks about Antiochus Epiphanes, but verse 36 until the end of the chapter is talking about the Antichrist. How do we know? Because immediately afterward Michael the Prince arises and those who sleep in the dust are resurrected (Chapter 12).

            Daniel 9:25-27 also contains a hidden time:

            1) Messiah the Prince is “cut off.”
            2) The Temple is destroyed.
            3) Then, during the Church Age, the “hidden time,” war continues and desolations are decreed (actually 3 desolations, mentioned above) until the end.
            4) Then, at the time of the end, the Prince who is to come, the Antichrist, desecrates the holy place one last time, until he is made desolate.

            If all believers have the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit leads us into all truth, then it makes sense that Preterists, Historicists, Futurists, Idealist and Allegoricists would all have PART of the truth. It takes EVERY “living stone” to build the Temple.

            • good discussion

            • Amen.

            • Hi Todd,
              Obama is going to Jerusalem on Wednesday, the 20th. He is bringing Air Force One, two cargo planes, a couple of choppers, some tanks. 50 undercover agents are already scoping the place out with 20 more to follow. Sounds like he’s preparing for a quick getaway. Sure hope that Muslim isn’t planning to use the word jihad. He has been in power about 3.5 years.

              On a different note, have you ever read Daniel 11 as though it is describing Mohammid? It is a perfect description of the origins of Islam. I also believe the last days hold outs, like us, will also be sealed in our foreheads, not necessarily literally. I think it is a decision. Most probably even the most libby liberal is going to come to his senses when he realizes the choice he’s being forced to make. No one is going to go into terror worship easily, especially stubborn American individualists. I can’t imagine Hillary agreeing to wear a burka for any man. However she did take the heat for Benghazi.

            • Hi Todd,
              PS. I think what Jesus meant by “this generation” when all prophecy would be fulfilled, he meant that when you see all these things falling into place then that generation will know that the time is very near when I will return.
              But by the same token it doesn’t mean that everything that is prophecied in the Bible will be taking place in the final generation. Jesus was talking to people back in 30 AD and onward.

            • To Todd and everyone else on this site;
              I am always accused of putting words in peoples mouths when I create examples and extrapolate on various scenarios. It is just a method I use when making a point.
              There are so many people on this site that all believe in the “Left Behind” scenario, based on the books and movies, which I have studied, looking for bits of bible truth here and there.
              The problem is if you ask 100 people here to explain the tribulation, you will get 100 different stories, all similar in overall concept, just differing in the details.
              Obviously I can’t remember everything that everyone has ever said, so I have to lump you all together and pick a popular scenario that many people can relate to. And sometimes I create a completely new scenario, just to throw it out there to get people to think about.
              So pardon me for being human, but my responses are not limited to one person necessarily, so if I talk about something you never said, just know that it was directed to someone else.
              So there you go.

              • james

                that is ok, but do not extrapolate into the stratosphere.

                my definition of end times…

                tribulation ends with 6th seal, followed by wrath of god

                • Marianne,
                  Your definition of end times is… tribulation ends with 6th seal, followed by wrath?
                  A soul sister!

              • James,
                Did you ever think that God Intended for revelation to be interpreted 100 different ways? Being ready is not based on a right understanding of end times, it is based on a right attitude and heart. Humility, Surrender, Love, Joy, Patience, Kindness… all come from a right relationship, It is then that he will give wisdom and understanding. Ultimately though he will confound the very wise (self exalted), but those who trust him will shine like beacons in the darkness.

              • Well James, maybe you should stop assuming we all believe the same thing and maybe you should stick to the conversations at hand. Try responding and commenting on things each individual person is actually saying at the time instead of commenting on things you assume many of us believe. Stop “pick[ing] a scenario that everyone can relate to.”

                You use a straw-man tactic, which is very dishonest. In essence, the strawman attack is putting words in your opponent’s mouth and then attacking the resulting position, while simultaneously evading the real argument.

                In other words, you “create a completely new scenario,” then you accuse us of believing it!

                You’re problem seems to be that you believe that only you have the truth, therefore you really don’t care about what anyone else has to say. For you it isn’t worth remembering. You believe you are here to teach us the truth (you have said this many times), but maybe you also have some truth to learn from us.

                Drew is correct. Understanding and wisdom come from a humble and teachable spirit.

  299. Chris,

    Great, more of our tax dollars wasted by Barak Obamination.

    Jesus said ALL these things, from the destruction of the Temple in 70AD until His coming would happen BEFORE the generation would pass away. The word “generation” can also mean “the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a geneology.” In other words, the Jewish race would not pass away until all is fulfilled. So Jesus probably meant the first generation, the last generation, and/or every one in between.

    As for Daniel 11, I don’t know much about Mohammed’s conquests, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are “foreshaows” of Islam. History repeats itself.

    I agree the seal of believers is the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 2) I actually think the “mark of the Beast” will be something literal. The Greek definition indicates an engraving, or scratch of some sort, whereas the “seal” of God is a sign or token. I think we’re going to be surprised, maybe shocked, definitely saddened, at who accepts and refuses the mark. And it is definitely a choice.

    I can see Hillary wearing a burkha.

    • Todd,
      The reason I don’t think it will be literal is because in Rev. 13 Satan is marking his minions, and in Rev. 14 Jesus is marking his, both using the forehead. The forehead is a place of making up your mind, and a hand shake is sealing the deal.

    • Todd,

      The word for mark is the same throughout Revelation
      You can look it up in a concordance.

      • Yes, the word seal and mark are the same according to the concordance. To me, God uses His “Royal Seal” to mark His people but Satan uses a simple “Mark” like an illiterate person signing his name with an “X” so it is a matter of status which term you want to use. I think the original bible translators had this idea in mind when they chose the two different meanings for the same words.
        Just a thought.
        And neither are literal or visible. They are in the mind or works.

    • I guess you’ve never watched the History Channel documentary on Air Force One. Obama is being given the same level of protection as every president whether he wants it or not. He forgot to mention the backup plane, identical to the primary that is always nearby in some secret location. Clinton and the Bushes all got the same treatment, so don’t make any assumptions that they are expecting trouble. When it comes to the secret service they are ALWAYS expecting trouble, even from domestic sources.
      Sorry that it costs so much money but nowadays its hard to protect a president on the cheap.

      • Todd,
        I read on ynet he will have a a devise in his limosine that can launch nuclear weapons. There’s trouble and then there’s Obama. Do you trust his finger on the button of anything?

        • I don’t trust him about anything. He’s corrupt to the core.

        • You’re talking about a suitcase called “The Football” which has been used by all presidents since carter. It contains all the nuclear launch codes so no matter where the prez is he can issue a counter-strike in case missiles are ever launched against U.S. targets.
          So in case N. Korea decides to launch a nuke at L.A., I’ll be glad he has it handy to launch a few intercepters.
          So please don’t take my football away! 🙂

      • Yes, I’ve seen a few History Channel programs on the subject. I was just having conversation. I try to respond to everything people say. The thought actually never entered my mind that they were expecting trouble. All I said was, “Great, more of our tax dollars wasted.”
        And you don’t have to be sorry that it costs so much money nowadays. It’s not your fault. 🙂

  300. http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=796589

  301. Hey everyone,
    I just had a sort of epiphany regarding possible upcoming events on or around this coming Passover.
    Based on several recent blogs I have come up with a likely scenario, but as Jan would say, it is pure speculation.
    If we believe DJ (and some others) that Obama is the Antichrist and the middle of the tribulation will start in a week or so, then it stands to reason he must take over the New World Order and institute the mark of the beast. So here is how it might go down:
    Right while Obama is in the middle east, he will call on the forces of the Nephilium who have a fleet of spaceships between earth and Venus, to come into orbit over all the major cities of the world. They will conquer the world without firing a shot, especially since the U.S. Is in league with them and won’t lift a finger to stop them.
    They will send forth from their mother ship, an emissary (False Prophet) who will claim that Obama is God and should be worshipped by all humans. And Obama will perform miracles (engineered by the Nephilium) to prove he’s God.
    Then the orbiting ships will set up a worldwide computer network, then send millions of demons down to earth to put chips in every person on earth. All banks will be shut down and humans will be forced to use the chips to buy and sell everything. Anyone who refuses the chip will be subjected to a two-phase tractor beam which will pull their heads from their bodies, just to make an example of them for others to see and be afraid.
    .
    So how did I do? Makes sense to me, based on what the majority of people believe. But it is only one possible scenario of course. Maybe someone else out there has a better explanation for how the prophecy will unfold.
    Any takers?

  302. Wow, that’s almost exactly the scenario I was thinking of, except the part about banks closing. I think the Nephilim will use them as their headquarters. And then they can use those little camera thingys on the ceilings to monitor the world to make sure everyone is worshiping Obama on Sunday. They’ll probably lock all the Sabbatarians in the bank vaults because they disobeyed.

    No, I’m serious. It’s kinda scary. Those bank vaults are really small.

  303. Prophetic Terms

    woman=church (Ephesians 5:25)
    Whore=Evil church
    Waters=People,Multitudes (Revelation 17:15

    And there came one of the seven angels.. and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither, I will show unto thee the judgement of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters..

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured Beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 17:1-3)

    Part1
    evil church(whore)that influences(sits on) much people (waters, waters meaning inhabited area/people,nations) having names of blasphemy..

    Who is this church?

    And the woman(church)was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls.. (revelation 17:4 )
    part2
    and i saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of jesus ( revelation 17:6)

    point3
    and here is the mind which hath wisdom,. the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.. (revelation 17:9)

    Revelation 17:4 church arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold..

    revelation 17:6 Church was drunk with had much of the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs..

    revelation 17:9 The church sits on seven mountains.. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth

    which church fits this?

    Roman catholic church… the color for bishops and other prelates is purple, for cardinals scarlet… The pectoral cross should be made of gold and decorated with gems…
    Ibid. pp 175,178, and p 466
    The vatican sits on seven hills

    Church of catholics..

    Meaning the beast of revelation 17 comes from the roman catholic church

    Revelation 17:10 and there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come and when he cometh he must continue a short space

    ( when did the roman catholic church have any kings? )

    When they reveived a kingdom

    ( the lateran treaty )

    the agreement signed in 1929 by Italy and the holy see which recognized the vatican city as a sovereign and independent papal state…

    On february 11,1929 pius x1 was the first roman catholic pope to become king of vatican state

    and there are seven kings

    five are fallen

    Pius x1 1922-1939
    Pius x11 1939-1958
    John xx111 1958-1963
    Paulv1 1963-1978
    john paul1 1978

    and one is and the other is not yet come ( John Paul 11 )=(one is)…
    and when he cometh , he must continue a short space.. (revelation 17-10)

    John was shown the vision during the reign of John Paul 11( and one is) as a divine hint that he was the significant pope..

    and the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven and goeth into perdition..( revelation 17:11)
    what king do you think will be impersonated by the father of lies Aka satan? (John Paul11)

    Clue:
    And i saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death..

    (Revelation 13:3) and his deadly wound was healed.. and all the world wondered after the beast..

    The world loved John paul 11.. who else better to impersonate in order to deceive the world?

    For there shall arise false christs, and false prphets, and shall show great signs and wonders, in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect..

    Behold I have told you before ( Matthew 24: 24:-25) “John Paul11” comes back from the dead to deceive many with the great signs and wonders, performing miracles..

    and no marvel, for satan himself is transormed into an angel of light ( 2 Corinthians 11:`14)

  304. So you think John Paul II will be resurrected? Will he replace the existing pope? According to St. Malachy, the current pope will reign during the tribulation, and there will be no more. Unless you think the new pope IS JP2 resurrected, although they lived concurrently, so that makes no sense.
    I think you are mixing kingdoms with people when it comes to beasts. You’ve got your other definitions correct (churches) but you forgot that beast = kingdom, not person. Most everyone make this mistake, just so their theory of the antichrist can fit the scriptures.
    The fact is, there will be no resurrections until Christ returns. Not NERO, nor JP2, not anyone.
    As you mentioned, there are 8 kingdoms (beasts) but they are NOT people.
    Here are the 8 successive kingdoms from Daniel to Revelation.
    1: Babylon
    2: Medo-Persia
    3: Greece
    4: Rome
    5: Holy Roman Empire 538-1798 (1260 years)
    6: Vatican (restored to power in 1929)
    7: restored Roman Empire (European Union 2010)
    8: restored Holy Roman Empire (Soon to come, and of the 7th)

    I could be wrong but I just don’t see JP2 rising from his tomb any time soon. He would have to be resurrected by God himself, and I can’t see why God would release a deceptive monster to defile His church with lies.
    Satan will have to take over an existing pope to do that, he can’t resurrect a dead one.
    On the other hand, the Vatican, the Roman empire and (soon) the Holy Roman Empire have been resurrected, and they are all true beasts.
    But who knows, maybe we will see JP2 once again. Miracles can happen.

    • James,
      Why so much about Rome rome rome.
      Here’s the way I see it:
      Rev. 17:7 I will tell you the mystery of the woman, and the beast that carieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

      17:9 “The seven heads are seven mountains (empires), on which the woman (mother of harlots, false religion) sitteth.”

      10 “And there are seven kings: five are fallen…”
      1. Egypt
      2.Assyria
      3.Babylon lion
      4.Medopersia bear
      5.Greece leopard(see Rev. 13:2)

      “one is,” Rome #6 is during John’s revelation

      “and the other is not yet come;” Islam #7 did not arrive until 600 AD “and will continue a short space” until 700 AD, a deadly head wound. A composite of the leopard the bear and the lion, all Middle Eastern.

      11″And the beast that was and is not even he is the eighth (a composite of the previous Middle Eastern empires) AND is of the seven (Islam #7) and goeth into perdition.”

      6. Rome
      7. Original Islam that had a deadly head wound 700 AD the Battle of Tours.
      8. Islam revived and the whole world wonders at its come back.

      Rev. 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him,(#7) and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,(soon to be nuclear) and “deceiveth” them that dwell on the earth by the means of those “miracles” which he had power to do in the sight of the beast (his multitude); saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a “sword”, and did live.

      A nuclear powered Iran would have that affect.

      Rev. 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdomas yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

      That’s about how long the Sunnies and Shiites can unite against their common enemy Israel. But God finishes it.

      Rev. 17:16 “And the horns (above) which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.”

      That’s what you call repentance.

  305. The kingdoms start at Babylon where the statue of Daniel started. Revelation is a continuation of Daniel. We know that because he refers to the leopard the bear and the lion from the Daniel prophecy. Each of the beasts of Daniel replaced the previous one, and the first beast of Revelation (Holy Roman Empire) replaced the Roman empire, not Islam.
    Plus Islam has nothing to do with God’s people, His church. The Book of Revelation is about God’s people, not anyone else. You are pulling Islam into it for no good reason other than the fact you are hoping it is Islam that will be destroyed rather than Christian churches. I could make a case that the empire after Rome was the British Empire. Certainly bigger and more worldly than Islam. And the Ottoman empire continued until WW1, and it was Islam. Islam did not disappear in 700AD.
    And you must remember that the False Prophet will fool most of the Christian world into thinking he is God. No Muslim could ever do that. And there will not be a new worldwide Islamic empire. Iran will never be allowed to get nukes. The US and Israel will see to that.
    Plus you have the first beast of Revelation lasting 100 years but Revelation says it will last 1260 years (42 prophetic months, time, times and half a time)
    And you left out the verse that says the second beast will have two horns like a lamb, which means it will appear to be Christlike or Christian, and it will exercise all the authority of the first beast, which therefore must also be Christian. These verses refer to an apostate Christian church – the whore who sits on the city of seven hills. The whore dressed in purple and scarlet – the colors of the church of Rome, never Islam.
    There are too many verses that just don’t fit the Islam theory. A lot of people want it to be true, but it‘s not going to happen. the Book of Revelation is not about Islam. It is about Christianity. Unfortunately, most Christians do not understand this and will suffer during the tribulation.

  306. James,
    As you wish.
    1260 years. 1948 – 1260 years = 688 AD Dome of the Rock.
    1967 – 42 months of years = 688 AD Dome of the Rock.
    1948 Israel will return from the wilderness of the world. Rev. 12:6
    1967 Gentiles will no longer control Jerusalem. Rev. 11:2
    100 years when he cometh #7 he must continue a short time. Rev. 17:10

    A false religion, with an army, trying to convert the world by the sword, who denies that Jesus is the Christ, who feigns being Christ like in the beginning, leaves the temple mount desolate by erecting something abominable where it remain until the end, a combination of the bear the lion and the leopard…Middle Eastern.

    • gentiles still control jerusalem and the temple mount.

      what about

      1948 + 1260 more years?

      • Marianne,
        Actually what Rev. 11:2 says is that the gentiles will trample on the CITY until 1967, or 42 months of years which is consistent with Daniel’s 1 day =’s a year. All it says about the courtyard of the gentiles on the temple mount is that John is to leave it out, not to measure it. What it says in Daniel about the abomination of desolation is that it will stand on the temple mount until the end when what has been determined will be poured out.

        Dan. 9:27 NIV he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

        Rev. 11:1-2 NIV I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do no measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy CITY for 42 months.

        • the gentiles are still there and it is way past 1967!

          they have been there 36 years longer than they were supposed to be

          if you are counting from the time the dome of the rock was set up

          so the 1260 cannot be in years…it has to be days….

    • Scripture says the beast will continue for 1260 years. The beast represents a kingdom, not the lifespan of a mosque. Plus, the mosque is still there so we are at over 1325 years. Your start date is the completion of a building and your end date is the beginning of modern Israel as a nation. To me this is a case of grasping at straws to try to prove a point.
      As I said, no Muslim will ever claim to be Jesus, and if he were to claim to be God, that would be Allah, not Jesus, so the whole scenario falls apart. Plus he would only be affecting the Muslim world, Christians would not be part of it and the Book of Revelation was written as a warning to Christians, not the Muslims.
      For some reason people with thus theory actually believe that all the Muslim world has to do is come together as one and they could defeat the entire world in some nuclear war led by Iran with a couple of nukes. That is simply ridiculous. The Muslim world, if anything, is falling apart. They can’t keep their own governments together, let alone combine forces with neighboring governments.
      I mean, I’ll believe it when I see it, but I’ve been following this theory for 40 years now and it is just going nowhere. But if you really believe it, then keep waiting and watching. Just keep an open mind in case things don’t work out the way you are expecting.
      I’ll be doing the same.

      • Jaes,
        The abomination desolation will stand on the temple mount until h end.

        The woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there 1260 days/years.
        until 1948. Rev. 12:6

        The woman witnesses along with the Christians for 1260 years clothed in sackcloth, the olives and the candlesticks. If any man hurt them they must in likewise manner be killed.
        Rev. 11:3 “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy 1260 days/years, clothed in sackcloth.”

        Like Ezekiel said, the dry bones would come back to life, and they have after running from the devil for 1260 years until 1948.
        Like John said Rev. 16:5-6, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they (Mystery Babylon)have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy…and He will judge.

        As for me, and how it all sakes out, at this point I am persuaded neither things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth nor any creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

        • Problems:
          Jesus said once you see the abomination of desolation then we should be near the Second Coming. That was over 1270 years ago. Bad timing.
          If the woman is Israel, and she fled into the wilderness under the protection of God, then God is a poor protector, letting 6 million Jews be slaughtered in WW2.
          The Jews and Christians did not witness together for 1260 years. They were always at odds, and why not since they deny Jesus, the only way to eternal life.
          The Jews were never big on prophecy, especially out of the New Testament, and they rarely wore sackcloth and none had the power to shoot flames from their mouths and withhold rain from their enemies. You are ignoring half the verses or relegating them to imagery.
          Ezekiel described the resurrection, which all Jews wait for (they don’t believe in going to heaven), not a metaphor for people to migrate to the location of ancient Israel. Read the description carefully.
          As for Mystery Babylon, it is the ancient religion of Nimrod and Semiramis (Baal worship) NOT Islam. Pagan elements of Mystery Babylon are still within today’s churches, especially the Catholic church. This is what God must destroy before the marriage to Christ, not any other false religion. God always deals with His own people. He doesn’t send prophets to warn other religions that He is displeased with them. The Book of Revelation is for and about Christians, not Muslims.
          Just Sayin’

  307. Hi do not confuse your selves , we have a link to this already, I dont believe all this stuff that was written here….although you tried to get a picture of the beast, but about the woman in Rev 17, we have a link in the book of Daniel 9 vs 26, The People of the **prince that shall come** ( The anti-christ People ) will destroy the city nd sanctuary ……… So all we have to do now is to search History and find out who were those people ? and you will find out it was the Romans !!!!!! You have to believe the account and totality of the Bible. To learn more and to get more explanation message me david.kelechi@yahoo.com or go to youtube.com/thelightpassion to watch loads of end time messages , or http://www.brideassemblychurch.org ! THE WISE SHALL UNDERSTAND !!!

    • hi david

      I have different views on here….like this one says the beast IS Rome

      Is the "Beast" Rome?

      then there are these views

      Leopard 4th Beast

      The Beast – “is”- or – “is not” – Rome? – end times

      Beasty Boy

      etc

      • Hi….. I want you to understand something, In the Revelation that John saw, he said he saw 7 golden candle sticks , and 7 stars, and one in the Mist of the candle sticks ( which was the Lord Jesus ), and the angel explained to him that the 7 candle sticks are the churches ( 7 church ages ) and the Stars are Angels to the churches ( an angel is a Messenger so in other words, 7 star messengers ) Now the 7th star messenger made us to understand all these things, the revelation of the 7seals and he was the one that also pointed out who that woman really is, I believe in is the Vertican City in Rome , I can not go into lots of details but i believe everyone who took time to read this as well as those who wrote it really wanna know these things, because the Lord Jesus Christ told us to watch and Pray…… that is why i Strongly recommend you my brothers and sisters to go to youtube.com and search for ** the Light Passion ** OR simply type in youtube.com/thelightpassion , and it will take you to the page directly…you have opportunity to listen to over 100 messages that will open your eyes of understanding to the mysteries of the end time OR send me an email to david.kelechi@yahoo.com and i can select some message and send you the link for you to download and listen.

        God bless.

        David.

    • David, I attempted to access the web site you listed but my browser put up a warning that the site has been flagged as a possible “phishing” site so I declined to go there, so I can only go by what you said;
      I agree that much of the Olivet prophecy referred to the sack of Jerusalem in 70AD. But the latter part did refer to end time events.
      And Daniel 9 was primarily fulfilled long ago, but the beast prophecy clearly referred to the Roman empire as it was the one that defeated the previous beast, Greece.
      But the Book of Revelation refers to two newer beasts, again coming from the previous empire, Rome, so that couldn’t occur until the fall of rome much later.
      And of course the Book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem, so there would be little use for the book if it was fulfilled before it was even written.
      So I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying we are not in the end times, and no beast or False Prophet will ever show up? Did Jesus already return in the form as the papacy, as I’ve heard (on the catholic channel)?
      Give us an outline to those who don’t want to be phished.
      Thanks.

      • Hello bro James, I will start by saying * you typed in the wrong website or link, or you check if your browser is working fine, because thousand of people all over the world connect to that site and they go through , you can as well say youtube is a *phishing* site ?? Bro James, let me give you the like again in case i made a mistake earlier : http://www.brideassemblechurch.org OR youtube.com/thelightpassion TRY that and let me know if your browser flags it again………

        When you get to youtube you listen to the message titled : Behold the Anti- Christ , you will understand better , or you can listen to The strength of a Church **.

        God Bless you.

        David.

        • I clicked the link above and my browser could not find the page.
          As for the YouTube site, there are far too many (914) to watch in order to find the information I am asking you.
          Plus I could not understand the accent of the minister – I listened for a minute and only picked out 3 or 4 words, so that’s a wash.
          But I agree that the Vatican is the beast that the woman (Catholic church) rides but I don’t buy the “Left Behind” scenario with the rapture, a One-World-Order and an Antichrist dictator who takes over the world and puts a chip in everyone.
          So I’m not sure if we’re on the same page or not.
          Bless.

          • James
            No one would dare to fight against the beast. If Vatican starts war don’t you think protestant and muslims will fiht back??
            when you say Vatican is beast is like calling you a priest. It does not fit.

            • ass,
              During the Holy Roman Empire, the first beast of Revelation, no one could stand up to the Vatican. They killed millions in the inquisition. These are the saints of Revelation, killed on order of the popes, not by Muslims in the crusades. They weren’t stopped until Napoleon captured the pope in 1798, the end of the 1260 years of the beast – (Holy Roman Empire).
              The war you mention is for the souls of the saints. The Catholic church is teaching pagan practices and using pagan services derived from ancient Rome, and they simply claim the pope has the power to change the bible, and the very word of God if he sees fit, and that is the blasphemy mentioned by Daniel about the little horn (Vatican).
              Simply believing that a man can change God’s word seems ridiculous to me. The Vatican claims the popes are infallible, but we all know from history that that is not true. Especially deleting and changing the Ten Commandments. Believing blindly in the traditions of man instead of the scriptures can only lead to doom.
              This has been the theme of the bible since the beginning and the fall of Adam. God is not pleased with the Catholic church, nor the many protestant daughter churches who still have pagan roots. The true church (Philadelphia) is a very small remnant today.
              All the rest are “Babylon” and will be destroyed.

              • James

                You say

                believing that a man can change God`s Word seems ridiculos…….

                I say

                Our prophet and apostel Paul changed a lot in the faith. Didn´t he??
                He said we are free from the law of Torah. That is to change the Bible! He said don´t judge people about what they eat. That is to change the Bible.

                You say

                you are accusing the Vatican that they changed the Ten commandments.

                I say

                Paul forced the Vatican to this. Paul said “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” (Col. 2:16)”

                The Vatican was forced to change the sabbat commandment because of this verse. If you don´t like that the sabbat is changed by our wonderful fine Church. Then it is Paul you shall accuse but if you do so then you are questioning the holy spirit.

                The true Church is the Ortodox Church and Philadelphia was an Ortodox Church Before muslims took over todays Turkey. We all know Phil. Church was in western Turkey.

                Babylon is USA and will be destroyed.

                • All the apostles, including Paul, kept the true Sabbath until they died. In fact, the entire church kept it until 300 AD when Constantine combined all the religions of the empire into one, and forced the Christians to worship on the Roman’s pagan SUNday. They also forced them to keep all the statuary already in the temples causing the pope to erase the second commandment not to worship graven images. See if you can find where Paul say that was O.K.
                  Dietary laws are one thing but the commandments are written in stone. Paul was not speaking of the weekly Sabbath but the yearly ones that Jesus had fulfilled (like Passover). They knew that there was no longer a need to sacrifice a lamb since Jesus was the last sacrifice necessary. The Saturday Sabbath was not included in his statement.
                  The true church keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ (according to Revelation). Your church breaks the commandments, therefore it is apostate. It is Babylon.
                  God will not personally destroy America. Just Google which country preaches the gospel more than any other in the world. We are fulfilling the prophecy that before the Second Coming the gospel will be preached around the whole world. Sure the US might be destroyed in WW3 at the hands of it’s enemies, or might suffer financial collapse (along with the rest of the world), but He will not destroy any country just because He doesn’t like them.
                  And let me ask you what your definition of “destruction” is. Will God just kill every person in the country? What about visitors? Or will he destroy the government? Well, that would be silly since as soon as Jesus returns all governments will be destroyed and Christ will reign as King of Kings.
                  Or will He completely destroy all people and buildings and make it a deserted wasteland? Sounds like something Satan would relish doing, not a God of love. But you tell us what you think.
                  If you’re trying to scare Americans, you might as well do it right and give us the details.
                  😦

                  • James

                    Paul ment saturday sabbat and nothing else.

                    Destruction regarding USA is that US neclear weapon will burn up and almost everyone will be killed and it will be a deserted wasteland as Jeremia 51 and Rev 17-18 speaks about.

                • To all (including James),

                  There is information posted within Heaven Awaits to help us answer the question – “Is the woman who sits on 7 hills really Rome?”

                  Time to re-read, “Woman on the Beast has no Blue.”

                  Woman on the Beast has no Blue

                  Within the above link we find a clue as to her identity.

                  She is a religious harlot that does not wear blue. Blue represents Christ. Therefore, she denies:

                  A. His atonement for sin by His blood, as the Lamb of God
                  B. His position and authority as the Son of God
                  C. His power (“having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof”)
                  D. His faithfulness, obeying the Father (commandments and Torah)
                  E. His place as our High Priest, therefore no man on earth (Pope) represents Him.
                  F. He was in the Beginning (God, Word and Spirit).

                  Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the life. There is no other way, no other truth and no other life to be lived but through and in Him. He is the Word (commandments/Torah) made flesh.

                  So, across the 7 continents of our globe there are religions: Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Judaism, etc and that teach a way and present truth and a life. These religions are generally associated with nations and tribes (people groups, cultures).

                  Before I upset to many folks to much – Protestantism is a group of denominations and each one presents teaching (beliefs regarding – daily living, worship, praise and service and some with doctrine and creeds), that differentiates themselves from another groups (denominational churches of believers and non-believers).

                  Each denominational church proclaims, “we worship in spirit and truth”, but each one interprets The Way, The Truth and The Life differently. For example, some teach that Christians are not under the law but under grace. In this example, a Pastor gets a tattoo on his arm and is proud to show it to members of his church, while rejecting Leviticus 19:28 as the law, having no relevance to his decision as a Christian. Other churches are filled with love (godliness) but deny (abdicate) the power thereof.

                  “Denominations often form slowly over time for many reasons. Due to historical accidents of geography, culture and influence between different groups, members of a given religion slowly begin to diverge in their views. Over time members of a religion may find that they have developed significantly different views on theology, philosophy, religious pluralism, ethics and religious practices and rituals. Consequently, different denominations may eventually form. In other cases, denominations form very rapidly, either resulting from a split or schism in an existing denomination, or if people share an experience of spiritual revival or spiritual awakening, and choose to form a new denomination based on that new experience or understanding” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_denomination).

                  I’m coming to understand that thinking of Islam or just Rome (Catholic) as “The Woman” is shortsighted.

                  Why? Even renown Pastor, teacher and author Bill Hybels agrees that there is “unity of God” between Islam and Christianity. Catholics are in agreement with this piece of theology too.

                  http://faith.yale.edu/common-word/common-word-christian-response

                  I think this woman riding the beast was/is present in Babylon, Egypt, Laos/Cambodia (Asia), China, Japan, India, Africa, as well as in Mayan and Aztec cultures. Today there is Allah and not Baal or a tower built to him. Pick one of the continents (7 of them) and a culture and you will find this Woman. The world (UN) operates Antarctica.

                  The Woman now rides the Beast (a world wide system), which is evolving into a global “religion and economic/monetary, political and cultural system”. She is so attractive that even a respected Protestant minister, the Pope of “the universal church” and Islam watch her ride, supporting her denials (A through F), one way or another.

                  Blessings
                  Psalm 1 (Amplified Translation)

    • David,
      Let me just ask you a question. Now that the fig tree has actually budded, where would you rather be stranded? Syria? Tunisia? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Iraq? Libya? Turkey? Sudan? Gaza? Pakistan? or Rome?

      And what if you were wearing a cross? carrying a Bible? holdng a home Bible study? or just simply lost your credit card?

      The wise will understand.

  308. James,

    Hello. I noticed one little, but very important point in your recent comment – “look up the word.

    Just this past week – I was considering this word (destroy) in the context of God’s statement, “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge” (Hosea 4:6).

    The free software E-sword is very helpful in these matters.

    Destroy H1820 (Strong)

    דּמה dâmâh (daw-maw’)

    destroy – a primitive root; to be dumb or silent; hence to fail or perish; transitively to destroy: – cease, be cut down (off), destroy, be brought to silence, be undone, X utterly.

    The verse in Revelation 17 reads

    “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while. As for the beast that was and is not, it is an eighth but it belongs to the seven, and it goes to destruction” (Rev. 17:9-11,

    The King James translation for verse 11 applies the word “perdition” – “And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

    Perdition G684 (Strong)

    ἀπώλεια apōleia (ap-o’-li-a)

    perdition – from a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): – damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

    G622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, “away from,” which intensifies ollymi, “to destroy”) – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

    G622 /apóllymi (“violently/completely perish”) implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); “to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction” (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

    http://biblesuite.com/greek/622.htm

    So then, with the original language definitions, apply the Paul principle – ask the Lord about these matters (2 Timothy 2:7) and He will give you understanding.

    Be prepared to wait patiently upon Him – because sometimes it is days or months before He answers a sincere and honest question to the sheep who know His voice.

    Now, I must be going.

    Blessings

  309. To ASS & DJ,
    According to Revelation, the angels will destroy Babylon, not man. So if the US will destroyed by nuclear weapons it won’t be by the hand of God. Of course if nuclear war does break out (and it will), most of the world will also be destroyed.
    But that doesn’t mean the US is Babylon, as many have claimed. As I’ve said, God doesn’t just pick a country and say, “I will make you a wasteland).”
    Babylon is a religion, based on Baal worship of ancient Babylon. It is not a country. This religion is false Christianity and includes 99% of all denominations. Any denomination that does not obey all the commandments will be destroyed. Not the members, only the religious practices. Does anyone other that Adam think that when Christ returns He will wear the pagan fish hat and serve mass every Sunday at the Vatican? And will he set up a Christmas tree and accept presents from all the world on Saturnalia (Dec. 25th)?
    His version of Christianity is vastly different than anything we have today, so everything else (Babylon) must be destroyed first. You can call it “utter destruction” or just “a good cleaning” but it must be done before the marriage. Statues and other graven images will certainly be destroyed, but the churches will stand and the people will be taught the true way of God. If you think your church will not be changed in some way, then you are a fool. And if anyone thinks that God will kill all the Muslims and leave their church untouched, they are delusional.
    Most of the world will be destroyed by the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th horsemen, so God won’t have to finish that job. He has to deal with ideology and false traditions. And why kill billions of people only to have to resurrect them again and teach them the gospel later? It’s going to be the same amount of work either way.
    As for the beast being the UN, and the woman being a One world religion, I don’t see it. The UN doesn’t match scripture and there will never be a single religion to replace all others. Americans, Israelis and Muslims will never get together in peace and love and worship the same God in the same way. It will never happen no matter how many preachers get together and sign some petition.
    Bless…

    • James
      You say
      man will not destroy babylon but angels

      I say

      You are half right. Angels knows were Us neclear weapons are and will let the russians know it. then the russians will tell south america and they will attack Usa and pang Usa is gone and God will not protect USA because 75 % of you are protestants = false Christians.

      • Well that scenario is even less likely that Nibiru showing up!
        Where do you get this stuff? Comic books? Oh wait – must be YouTube.
        In any case, you are still nuts, and this proves it. 🙂

        • James
          Dimitru Duduman. You can look at is prophecy on this blog. Just search on Duduman on the main page.

        • James,
          If Assert knows something we don’t, it reminds me of the scripture, blessed in or coming in and in our going out. Speaking of going, that’s one way of “going UP in the rapture.”

      • Assert,
        Did the dimi teach you that or the pope?

  310. “I saw this repulsive thing: They prophesied by PAUL and led my people Israel astray.” [Jeremiah 23:13]

  311. Parable of the 12 heavenly chalkboards

    What is a common analogy for a permanent decision?
    “Written in stone.”
    What could be more permanent than that?
    How about written in stone in heaven (in other words, for eternity.)
    And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable?
    Perhaps a foundation stone?
    The Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John, chapter 21 verse 14 says… [Please open our own Bible and look it up for yourself.]

    Parable of the 12 heavenly chalkboards

    Imagine “Wackyjesus” in “Wackyheaven”, built on the foundations of 12 chalkboards:

    “Matthias, you should have developed your skills in writing and public speaking. Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. [erase erase erase]

    Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. You should have hired a PR firm to promote your name and make if famous. [erase erase erase]

    Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. “So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together.” And this is before Saul/Paul is even mentioned. But let us not confuse the issue with facts. Paul did a much better job of marketing himself, and he wrote about himself hundreds of times. Share of voice equals share of mind. And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become “like Paul.” But I digress…

    James, we had a good run. I didn’t think King Herod would knock you off so quickly. [erase erase erase]

    Oh well. Wow, they’re dropping like flies. Now I’ve got 3 slots open. I’d better buy a case of chalk and some more erasers. I’ll have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia.

    I guess I had better plan ahead, and save a slot for the last Pope, Francis. And the head Mormon Apostle. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or she’ll be mad. And one for Muhammad too. Who needs truth in relationship, when I can quickly get market share, and totally dominate the market, through mergers and acquisitions?

    And one throne for that other guy named Peter. When he was younger, he used to have the great theological insight about territorial spirits and wrestling with dark angels. What was his last name? Begins with a consonant. Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in “sword and sandal epic” days… “Peter Charioteer?” Maybe not. This isn’t the “fullest” description of him, but it’s full enough. Anyway, I should save a throne for him too.”

    So what is the application of this parable?
    Beware of the NAR whale – it’s really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like “Seven Mountains” is Revelation 17, “seven hills on which the woman sits.” (The Great Prostitute, that is.) Rome is the city that sits on seven hills, the perfect place for Peter the Roman, the New World Pope for the New World Order, to replace the original Apostle Peter in the apostate church of the Antichrist.

    • Matthew,
      This is a list of the cities that claim to be the city on 7 hills,
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

      You’ll find Mecca. You’ll find Istanbul, and probably 100 more. Aspirations ran high to be the city of 7 hills in Daniel’s era. I see you have chosen Rome. Remember, it has to sit on a kingdom or empire since the beast is an empire and the woman rides atop the beast. Oh dear, I’m afraid Rome has been disqualified. You could claim Rome is a religious “empire”, but unfortunately for you, the beast is a governing empire with an actual army — with swords. The beast and its correlative religion ride together as a conquering unit.

      I’m sorry Matthew. Your guess is incorrect. Please try again.

  312. Chris,
    You quoted one source- Wikipedia – (which my local Community College would not accept as a valid source for a research paper.) Is that the best you can do? You mentioned “Daniel’s era”, but I did not. I quoted the Apostle John.

    The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like “Seven Mountains” is Revelation 17, “seven hills on which the woman sits.” (The Great Prostitute, that is.) If you disagree, then please open your New Testament and quote chapter and verse. Neither one of us knows everything- but I am willing to learn. Jesus loves you!

    • Matthew,
      Oh, if you insist I will open my Bible.

      Rev, 17:9 And here is the mind whih hath wisdom. the seven heads are seven mountains, on which the o

  313. Matthew,
    The first beast of Revelation was the Holy Roman Empire, which WAS a religious power WITH an army (with swords), and the final kingdom (the 8th King) will be a revived Holy Roman Empire with the Vatican in charge and the armies of the European Union at its disposal.
    Rome fit back then and it will fit again soon. All the players are in place and ready to go.
    Take that Wikipedia!

    • jim

      actually, revelation says that the beast was, and IS NOT (at the time of John), and will be……and is one of the 7…..so…..the candidate for beast has to be an empire that WAS NOT in existence at the time of John

      • Not so…
        You must remember that John is in the middle of a vision and he is already in the future when he mentions the beast that is and is not. He is not talking about an earlier beast from his own time. He is keeping with the time line in his vision.
        He speaks of the 4 kingdoms that come out of and follow the 4 kingdoms of Daniel, a total of 8. His first beast is the Holy Roman Empire which directly followed Rome. This was followed by the Vatican, which was (was powerful during the Holy Roman Empire) then was not, after Napoleon killed the pope in a vain attempt to destroy the Vatican. Then the Vatican was again in 1939 when it became a kingdom (beast) again. The 7th king is the revived Roman empire (EU) and the 8th will be a restored Holy Roman Empire when the EU and the Vatican combine forces to repulse a future invasion of Muslims into Europe, which has already begun.
        So you see, all 8 kings of Revelation flow directly from Babylon, and it is the Mystery Babylon religion that must be destroyed before Christ returns. The entire Daniel/John visions serve one purpose – to show how Baal worship filtered thru the sands of time and conquests to pollute the modern churches. The story is quite simple really. We all know God always has to correct or punish His own people, and this is no exception. The Jews went thru it several times, and now it is the Christians’ turn. Not the Muslims, as many would have you believe. The Book of Revelation is a Christian book for and about Christians. Babylon is not a city or a nation, it is bad Christianity. The bride of Christ must be cleansed before the marriage.
        We have been warned. Take heed or suffer the mark of the beast.
        Bless.

        • rev 13 does not describe a roman beast, but a composite one.

          and so does daniel

          • Yes, every conquering kingdom acquires many of the attributes of the nations it conquers. This is how the Mystery Babylon religion was able to continue and prosper thru the ages up until this day. Adding additional pagan practices to the mix until we end up with the apostate churches of today. God wanted to show us how this happened but many people completely misinterpret the meaning to the point that they don’t even understand what kingdoms conquered the previous ones. History shows us the order of progression. The prophecy has been mostly fulfilled, yet people still wait for a different beast to come to world domination leaving a 2000 year gap in God’s word. Same is true for the 70 weeks of Daniel. God proves who He is thru fulfilled prophecy yet no one sees it.
            Don’t feel bad, the Jews missed Jesus completely, despite all the prophecies.
            And so history repeats itself.

            • if each is a composite of the others….why are the others not described this way too.?

              • John used the lion, bear and leopard to identify his first beast so the reader would be clear that he was continuing the story started by Daniel. He was indicating that his beast had elements in it from Rome, Greece, Persia and Babylon. He was back-tracing the roots of the Mystery Babylon religion. This only must be done once to establish a precedent.
                It’s simple story telling.

                • that is my point….the final beast is not just “rome”…. it has elements from all empires in it…..it is a composite…so it is bigger than you think

  314. Chris,
    Thanks for your research. So it seems we all agree. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like “Seven Mountains” is Revelation 17:9 (KJV & NASB say “seven mountains”, NIV & Amplified say “seven hills.”

    Why is this important? Try doing an internet search of “7 mountains.” You will see that many Christian leaders are consumed with a quest for power, to gain “Dominion” over the “Seven Mountains.”

    No offense intended, but this is a doctrine of demons, It is satanic deception. God never gave us a “7 mountain mandate” – approximately 10 years ago 2 supposed “prophets” had dreams about that. And now it’s being pushed by self-proclaimed self-appointed “Apostles” in Peter Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation movement (NAR.) Decades ago, Mr. Wagner was doing great work for the Lord Jesus Christ. But in recent years, he has gone WAY off course.

    “I have heard what the prophets say who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I had a dream! I had a dream! How long will this continue in the hearts of these lying prophets, who prophesy the delusions of their own minds? They think the dreams they tell one another will make my people forget my name, just as their fathers forgot my name through PAUL worship.” [Jeremiah 23:25-27]

    • Matthew,
      Sorry, I had a bit of an emergency and had to stop my message too quickly. Anyway, Marianne is right about the beast being a combination of the others, and they are all located in the Middle East.

      Rev. 17:9
      The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (mountains are kingdoms.)
      And there are seven kings: five are fallen, they WERE
      1. Egypt
      2. Assyria
      3. Babylon….lion
      4. Medopersia…bear
      5. Greece…leopard
      6. Rome….the one that IS during John’s lifetime
      7. Islam…not yet come during John’s lifetime. Mohammid died shortly after.
      8. Islam… revived after a head wound and is going into perdition.

      Scripture says: 17:10 “And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.”

      Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

      Who indeed? bent on destruction as they are.

      • excellent summary

      • Chris,
        I’ve seen this list many times before but it just doesn’t fit.
        First of all, the prophecy of Daniel / Revelation starts with Babylon, not Egypt. Egypt and Assyria were never mentioned as beasts.
        And consider this, when John brought up the five have fallen, he was in the future, having just described his first beast, which included the four from Daniel, mentioned by (beast) name. So now you say he comes out of the vision, back to his own time, and speaks of a different set of kingdoms, saying 5 have fallen etc. Then he jumps back to the future and somehow mixes the two different sets of kingdoms together? If so then God is a terrible storyteller.
        Also, Islam did not take off as a worldwide religion until long after Mohammed’s death, after the Koran was finally published. It has been growing steadily ever since then and has never received a deadly wound. Plus Islam is only a religion, not a kingdom. There has only been one religion that is also a kingdom and that is the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican. Just so happens that they are God’s people who have gone astray and need to be cleansed before the marriage to Christ. God does not need to cleanse (or wipe out) Islam before the Second Coming any more than He needs to cleanse Buddhism or others. They are not invited to the wedding so they do not matter. Wiping them out accomplishes nothing and would just be a waste of God’s time.
        As for “who can make war with them there Muslims” well, anyone can. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan. Imagine if we used nukes. Israel has 200 of them alone. So there are a lot of countries who can make war with Islam. If Islam tried to take over the world they would be wiped out in short order if the world got serious about it.
        So the prophecy really doesn’t fit and current events and common sense do not support it either.
        But you have the advantage that it is in the future so you can simply say, “well anything can happen, just wait and see.”
        So I guess we will see…

  315. Marianne (from above),
    You are mixing metaphors here.
    While the U.S. is a composite of all the nations of the “melting pot” that makes us up, we are not a kingdom that physically includes England, Mexico, Europe and all the other countries that contributed to our culture.
    First of all, God doesn’t really give a crap about nations per se. He is only concerned with His people, His church. He has never destroyed a nation or another religion just because He doesn’t like them. But He has corrected and punished His own people for their disobedience, and the Book of Revelation is no exception.
    The mixture of kingdoms is not a physical one, only religious. Otherwise you would have a kingdom consisting of Europe, Egypt, Iran, turkey, Greece, India (conquered by Greece) and even Israel. Do you really think that all of these countries will soon join together into one kingdom? It can’t be done. Just joining national territories mentioned in the bible won’t get you anywhere. You must look deeper to get the real meaning in prophecy. You must enter the mind of God, based on His prior actions. Otherwise you are just putting words together and trying to extract meaning from them based on your own thoughts and ideas.
    While it may make sense to you, because you came up with the idea, it would not make sense to God. He has His own agenda and it is about Christianity, not Islam.

    • India conquered by greece? since when? look at your ancient maps…

      the current countries represented by the ancient maps for the composite kingdoms are all islamic now….so there can be a religious union…

      http://www.oic-oci.org/oicv2/states/

      http://www.turkishislamicunion.com/transcripts.html

      it would be easy to pick out 7 or 8 of them who are central to action against Israel.

      • Yup. Alexander the Great fought his way into southwestern India before outstripping his supply lines. It‘s also where he was wounded and forced to return to Greece by ship.
        The history channel had a whole miniseries on Alexander.
        Check it out some time.

    • Jim,
      He destroyed Egypt, parting of the Red Sea, plague of the first born, turned the waters into blood. Took the wind out of pharaoh’s wings, wouldn’t you say, I mean, after, he convinced people he was God. That was his first mistake.

      Noah’s flood…ugh, that was a big one. Their crime? “they will become like us,” namely live forever as gods.

      Also, you seem to think that all of Revelation is future. Common mistake. I guess it would be future if we were as old as Moses.

      As far as who is going into perdition. It is the eighth in the list of beasts.
      Since we are living in the time of the eighth, there are ten kings who will fight the Lamb for one hour per Rev.17:12
      Rev. 17:12 says: “And the ten horns (on the woman sitting on the beast) which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. (Sunny and Shia alike).

      If you would like to know they are who fight, look at Ezekiel 38 and 39. Right after that earthquake/battle Israel commences to building a temple, the whole landscape has changed, and the city has a river running through it for the healing of the nations. It does not go well for any nation that came against Israel.

      well that about sums it up.
      oh yeah, and Babylon has a millstone thrown into the middle of it just like Nebuchadnezzar’s statue with the ten toes, Dan. 2.

      • First of all, the flood of Noah destroyed God’s people who went astray. Exactly what will happen in Revelation except it will be Christians.
        As for Egypt, God freed His people from captivity, he did not wipe out the entire kingdom nor their religion. Only the army that was foolish enough to follow the Israelites into the Red Sea. I don’t see Israel becoming enslaved to any nation before the Second Coming. And Islam is a religion, not a nation, and God has never destroyed any religions, only armies threatening His people.
        Still doesn’t fit.

        • jim

          YOU are the one who said it was a religious system… which is what Islam is…

          • I said it was a religious beast, and a beast is a kingdom. Only the Roman Catholic Church has a seat at the U.N. Islam is a religion but it is not a kingdom. Islam does not qualify as a beast any more than Buddhism or Hindi or any other religion.
            Also, the 2nd beast of Revelation appears as a lamb – Christian, but it speaks like a dragon… it is apostate having been polluted by Satan over the centuries.
            Also, Islam is not really a system. When you compare the Vatican with its complex structure of cardinals, bishops, and of course the pope, it is a reflection of the Roman empire from which it came.
            Islam is more concerned with killing each other than becoming an organized “system.”
            While there is a remote possibility that all Muslim countries will someday come together to form a single kingdom, it is extremely unlikely that it will happen any time soon, and the Catholic church has been there for 1500 years.
            I’ll take the obvious over the ridiculous every time.

            • Islam is both a political system, and a religious system. It controls governments, including ours now, and had its own set of religious and political laws. The union of 7-10 Islamic countries would organize it into a global kingdom, esp under the Hashemites and Saudis.

              • You know, people have been claiming Obama is a true Muslim in disguise and has been planted here by Kenyan secret service to initiate a takeover of the US by Islam. But as of yet he hasn’t made a single move. He’s never been to a mosque and continues to attend Christian churches as he has done his whole life. Lots of rumors but no facts.
                You can twist his friendly rhetoric he once used to try to get Muslim countries to give up their hatred of the US, but extending a hand of friendship to those who hate you is more of a Christian thing them Muslim. He never shut down Guantanamo and let all his buddies go and he has cut off aid to Egypt after more than 30 years, so he is not really looking too Muslim right now.
                And soon he will be out of power and your theory will fall apart.
                As for some Islamic nations coming together to form a kingdom, we will just have to wait and see. In my case I don’t need to wait since the EU is already a kingdom and it followed the previous 6 kingdoms of Daniel and Revelation.
                Besides, an Islamic kingdom does not fit all the rest of Revelation. Too many verses must be ignored to make it valid. It reminds me of all the science that must be ignored in order to believe YouTube videos about Nibiru, among other things.
                You hear something you like, then stick your head in the sand when it comes to proof. If you were really sure about your interpretation you wouldn’t be afraid to try to prove it. Or to change it if the glove doesn’t fit.
                (The exception being O.J.).

                • jim

                  you are from another planet. O grew up muslim, attended mosques, still does, and prays islamic prayers fluently in arabic. he could care less about christian churches…he just had a black liberation theology with a sympathy toward islam pastor as a friend…..

                  the EU is NOT a kingdom… it is an region of independent countries.

                  • All your claims are from You Tube idiots. If Obama ever did any of those things the GOP would have it plastered all over Fox News. Even Trump couldn’t prove he was born in Kenya, with all his millions for research.
                    The EU has a constitution, a president and its own currency. It qualifies as a biblical beast. Islam has no such an arrangement, and never will.
                    You seem to think the constitution has already been replaced with sharia law. If the republicans are making such a fuss over Obamacare, imagine if he proposed sharia law next. Ain’t gonna happen.
                    Well it won’t be long before the next election cycle begins and I can’t wait to see how the You Tube idiots are going to prove that (Hillary and whoever else) are all secret Muslims just so they can propagate this silly theory.
                    And of course, Nibiru will always be just around the corner.
                    Yeah, right.

                    • yes there is plenty of proof…..but you refuse to look at it….he has written his own biography and the proof of his allegiance has been plastered all over the internet….sorry you are not well read.

                      I have also heard him say in speeches what he his, and what he thinks about religion….sorry you do not listen to any of them…..

                      sharia is welcome by O and because of this is exempt from the new health care bill, christians are declared right wing domestic terrorists…..

                      the GOP HAS said something, but you weren’t paying attention…the government has been taken over by apathy and no one cares now….this does not cancel the truth

                      I am not going to discuss O anymore…it is a political issue, and this is a religion blog…..what he is, he is…..and that is not the focus of my writing anyhow…presidents come and go…but God remains, and that is who I focus on

                    • MArianne

                      You say

                      You don´t want to talb about O

                      I Say

                      We are living in the end times so it is very important for you Americans if your leader is a muslim or a Catholic.

                      If he is a muslim as you say then many Americans will burn in hell because they will be judged for killing God`s son and the penalty for that is hell forever. You will not kill him but you will be forced to try to kill him if he is a muslim and try to kill him is the same penalty as killing him.

                      IF he is Catholic as I think he is and my dreams also tells me that he is then he will save many Americans from burning in hell because he will not send army troops to try to kill him then.

                      The difference is huge!

                  • Marianne
                    You say a lot of things about O. Have you any proof that he has done this. If he has read the muslim creed then he is a muslim but if not then he is not lying about being a muslim. Much talk Little proof.
                    O was in sweden a couple of weeks a for a few days and he visited the synagogue in Stockholm. A muslim would not do that. O has telled the US people that he is a Christian in US TV. I Think he is more Christian then the most people on this blog.

                    Time will tell who is right and not!

  316. My (recent) postings on this thread are “on topic.” But they are focused on practical theology applied to the central component of the question at hand.

    Namely, is the Great Prostitute of Revelation 17, “the woman who sits on 7 hills”, good or evil? Should we embrace her, join her, and be part of her, sitting on 7 mountains / 7 hills? Or should we reject her, come out of her, and have no part of her?

    Recently, some Roman Catholic theologians have embraced her, and NAR theologians have taught we should join her on the “7 Mountains.” But “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus” “and remain faithful to Jesus” will say NO. [Revelation 12:17, 14:12]

    We must reject the Great Prostitute, the apostate end-time church – which I personally believe will be a perverted mix of religions, including Roman Catholicism, nominal “christians” from big impersonal “crusades” and mega-churches that have a “celebrity pastor”, liberal mainline denominations, and Islam.

    As followers of Jesus the Christ, the Jewish Messiah, we are called to be different. We need to personally continue to embrace Jesus and his teachings, and anyone else who TRULY embraces Him. (If you “made a decision for Christ at an altar call at a crusade 40 years and prayed the sinners prayer,” and that’s all you’ve go to say… that doesn’t necessarily mean anything according to Jesus. [Matthew 7:15-29]

    Jesus gave us the first and greatest, most important commandment, to love God with everything we’ve got. And the second commandment of Jesus is to love people, which includes FORMER prostitutes, FORMER homosexuals, FORMER Muslims, who have repented and been born again, freed from their sin, forgiven, washed clean, no longer carry that label, and should not be reminded of their pre-conversion sins by Christian leaders every time they are introduced. Jesus never reminded anyone of his or her pre-conversion sins. So true followers of Jesus need to stop following the bad example of Paul the Pharisee in this regard, and start following the example of Jesus.

    • matt

      you say

      we must reject the end time apostate church.

      I say

      The Catholic Church is old before 1054 it was an Ortodox Church so the root of the Church is from the book Acts. Protestants and free churches are end time Churches. The first none Christian church started 1521 = End time

      • Dude,
        1521 is not the end time. The end time started when Israel became a nation, or maybe not until the seals are opened.
        What we are referring to are all the Christian churches that are here during the end times – at the time of the Second Coming.
        No church will be invited to the wedding if it is apostate.
        No church gets a pass because it is old.

        • James

          you say

          No Church gets pass because it is old.

          I. say

          All Churches that has the apostles as a root will pass.

          • You have to remember that by the time John received the Book of Revelation, 6 out of 7 apostolic churches had already become apostate according to Jesus. Only Philadelphia was still worthy.
            But after Constantine combined all the religions of the Roman empire into one, that universal (Catholic) church became severely paganized. They trashed the 2nd commandment and changed the 4th. You may think God is cool with that but I assure you He is not.
            The protestant reformation was an attempt to remove Roman pagan practices from the Catholic church, to get it back to the church at Philadelphia but they failed to go far enough, so they are as doomed as the Catholic church. They are the prostitute daughters of the whore of Babylon. So you are right about the protestant churches, and they are right about the Catholic church. Both will go down in flames before the Second Coming.

            • Jim,
              Haven’t been to church lately? It’s not as bad as you make it sound.
              Love your wives as Christ loved the… church. Personally I like te 700 Club.
              As far as I know the Protestant and Catholic churches still sing Jesus Loves Me. Neither one has denied Jesus is the son of God, or that He came in the flesh. He is antichrist that denieth the Father and the Son. 1 John 2:22.

              Zechariah 4 and 5 explain who the third woman (church) is that is evil. It is not Christan (candlesticks) and it’s not the Jews (olive branches). Those two anointed ones stand before the Lord of the whole earth. The candlesticks have anointed oil pouring from their golden throats and are flanked by the olive branches.

              Conversely, there is a curse in the next chapter, Zechariah 5, a flying scroll that is terribly legalistic. God says he will turn back that scroll onto the perpetrators, and consume their house for swearing falsely in his name (being false prophets)

              Then it talks about two women (Jewish and Christian)with wind under their wings who come and place the third on a base in Shinar “and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
              That is the apostate church. That “church” is the great falling away that is prophesied. They do not preach grace or loving your enemies, they preach performance, namely killing God’s children in the name of a strange god. Shinar is in Babylon.

  317. Chris,
    Apparently you believe it is O.K. for man to change God’s laws, and that it is all right for foreign religions to be introduced into God’s church. Didn’t we see what God did to the Jews when this happened in the Old Testament?
    Plus the Book of Revelation tells you what it is about in the first three books. It is all about how displeased Jesus is with most of His churches and He sends warnings to straighten up or he will spit them out of His mouth.
    Then near the end he talks about an apostate church that he must destroy before he returns for the marriage. What makes you think this is anything but a Christian church? Pulling little verses from the Old Testament and trying to fit them into the Revelation puzzle is only asking for trouble. Sure we all hate the Muslims and wish they would disappear, but Hitler killed more of God’s people (both Jews and Christians) than Muslims have and he was Roman Catholic. Not that that matters, but the Book of Revelation is not about revenge. It is about the purification of God’s church.
    Do you think Jesus will hold mass on Sunday at the Vatican when he returns? Will he be fine with all of the graven images within modern churches? Will he accept Christmas presents sent to Him? Will he send Thank you cards?
    We all need to imagine what the millennium church will be like and act accordingly right now. Thinking God will be cool with all of our sins and that He will allow us to continue to sin after He returns is just foolish.
    Just figuring we aren’t nearly as bad as those Muslims – I’ll bet God would rather punish them than us Christians – is not the way to approach the Second Coming.
    Just sayin’

    • James

      You say

      Hitler was a Catholic

      I SAY

      HE CHANGED FROM CATHOLIC TO PROTESTANT AND THEN EVILNESS TOOK OVER HIM AND HE STARTED TO PERSECUTE THE JEWS AND HE TEACHED HIS FOLLOWERS THAT MARTIN LUTHER SAID THAT THEY SHALL PERSECUTE THE JEWS.

      = HITLER WAS NOT A CATHOLIC WHEN HE WAS FAMOUS!

      • Adam,
        I know how Hitler got into the occult later in life. My point was that not just Muslims can be accused of killing Christians.
        In fact the biggest criminals in this regard are the popes of the inquisition and the enforcers of the council of Laodicea who killed over 100 million saints for not following church decrees, like Sunday worship.
        So thanks for helping to prove my point.
        And thanks for agreeing about Obama.. Good to know some things are just too screwy, even for you.
        Now that’s saying something.

  318. Rev 17:18 And the woman which you saw is that great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.The city reigns over in John’s day was ROME.
    Don’t be blind my friends!! RCC is Apostate, they persecuted and killed the true believers! They will not accept Christ at his coming because they will say he is the Anti-Christ! Take Care

    • trev,
      Seems obvious, doesn’t it?
      But many here have an anti-Muslim agenda and they will not let obvious truths get in the way with their ideas.

  319. The Muslims will be converted easily by the Lord, Christianity will not. Why?
    because of this Anti-Christ doctrine. AS the Jews rejected Christ so will “Christians”. Read Psalm 2.

  320. Good point trev,
    What most people don’t realize is that the term Antichrist is never used in prophecy. What we will have is the Man of Sin who is the leader of the little horn of Daniel. This horn is the Vatican, and its leader, the pope, will be the false prophet. As the leader of an apostate church which denies God’s commandments he is a sinner and blasphemer. He doesn’t have to deny Christ to fulfill prophecy. He can even claim to be the substitute for Christ and still be the man of sin, but most people will not see it. And the great majority of modern Christians already follow the Vatican beast and give their allegiance to the pope.
    So fulfillment is already at hand.

  321. I have an idea. Let’ make Obama the antichrist that speaks like a Lamb. I mean, he understands dark sentences, and speaks in veiled language. He is a chameleon. He has an ego the size of Saudi Arabia. No offense to Saudi Arabia, I just needed to use another S for effect. Maybe Obama will kiss your ring a few times.

    Obama is the most powerful man in the world and he is taking down the US with debt. He’s taking down the Middle Eastern nations one by one and turning them into killing machines. Israel is his ultimate goal. He is able to do it, but only by using a military other than our own. Look at who this man, who came in on a peace platform, is taking over with his Arab Spring — peaceful protesters against their Shariah government. And who is getting all his support — the Muslim Brotherhood!

    On the other hand, guess who is going to leave the Muslim Brotherhood lying on the hills of Israel for passengers to clean up for 7 months? Check out Ez. 38 – 39. And guess when the next Jubilee Year is when all debts are forgiven? I don’t know either. I think it’s in 2015.

    But back to the woman who rides the beast: Now if you were one of the ones who survived, the 1/6th that the Lord didn’t wipe out on Israel’s hills, and Jesus, the Son of God, had just made known that Israel was hallowed ground, and the Jews are his elect, don’t you think you would head to Mecca and take apart with your bare hands if necessary the very beast that had caused all these problems? Sure you would. All the loved ones who were supposed to get 70 virgins, etc., all the brothers that were killed, you would be enraged at your own false religion–not someone else’s. And God is going to be the one who puts it in their heads to do it. Islam will be “like chaff in the wind on a summer’s day.” And there will be peace for 1000 years.

  322. Hi Marianne,

    The comments on this thread are now 1000+ and counting, since 2008. As I thought about some of these things, a mental image came to mind- a toy that I had as a child, called “Battling Tops.”

    The title of the woman is “Mystery Babylon…” so she’s SUPPOSED to be mysterious. Not everything in the Bible is equally clear, equally important, equally authoritative, or to be interpreted in the same way.

    Jesus the Christ, (the Jewish Messiah) is the Word made flesh, and HIS teachings and life example are the true Gold Standard for us as his followers, (since Jesus fulfilled what was written in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.)

    Devout Muslims have the teachings and life example of Muhammad. Mormons have a Mr. Smith. Others follow a Mr. Lee or Mr. Moon. There is the Black Madonna of Czestochowa “Queen of Poland”, and The Virgin of Guadalupe in Mexico. In Rome is “The Pope”, who claims to be infallible. And Protestant churches have the teachings and life example of…. Paul.

    As to the question “is the woman who sits on 7 hills Rome?” My answer is “maybe yes and no.” I think most people would have to agree that she has at least some connection to Rome in some way- historically, religiously, politically, economically, and / or symbolically. But does this have to be a new “Holy Roman Empire” which is European? I don’t see that personally.

    It seems to me that Ancient Rome was more centered on the Mediterranean, which includes North Africa and the Middle East, and that would overlap quite a bit with an Islamic Caliphate. I think the symbolic meanings of the Bear, the Lion, and the Eagle are fairly clear. But trying to make Germany fit as “the leopard with four heads” from Daniel 7 always bothered me, and never convinced me. I think a more likely possibility would be a 4-nation “ruling security council” that represented an Islamic confederacy. For different reasons, I believe that there are 4 nations that could lay claim to the Caliphate- Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. If you do some research, I believe you will find others who have said this.

    My wife and I live in the San Gabriel Valley just east of Los Angeles. We want to listen to the voice of Jesus from the Bible FIRST. Based on that standard, we can then consider and evaluate other voices, such as the voice of Paul, or the media, or books, etc. If someone wants to bring a Bible and meet us in a Starbucks, that might be fun.

    • hi matthew

      hope you find someone to meet you at starbucks….long trip from here, in north carolina

    • Matthew,
      Most Bible scholars think the leopard is the Grecian Empire.
      Rev. 13:2 goes leopard bear lion
      Daniel 7:4-6 goes lion bear leopard
      They are in reverse order as if Daniel was looking forward and John was looking backward. Babylon, Medopersia, Greece. That’s all I know.

      LA killed Breitbart imo. Now there’s a story.

    • Sure, the Roman empire included middle eastern and north African nations, you must remember the head of the empire, Rome itself is already part of the European Union.
      Seems like the prophecy is already fulfilled.

  323. The beast which is a ruling power at the time of the end will bring together all the area which the Babylonian , Persian,Grecian and Roman Empires conquered. Europe will become united and also Russia will probably be the instigators of this. So the empire headed by GOG (Russia) will with the EU bring into its alliance countries as seen in Ezek 38. The Papacy will also be part of this alliance being the religious mouth. Christ will destroy this alliance at his return as they think a evil thought attacking God’s Land of Israel.
    Christ will sit in the “city of the great King” Jerusalem reigning over the whole earth. (eventually). This is the hope of the Bible “the hope of Israel”.

  324. The lawless one will make a treaty with the many for one week. half way through that week, or 7 years he will break the treaty, stopping the Jews from sacrificing in their rebuilt Temple, and proclaim himself all things to all peoples.

    The Pope may, or may not be the false prophet. But who ever the false prophet is will cause all to worship the lawless one, or swear an oath to him in order to buy, and sell.

    To me, the whore that sits on the beast, or the global system is the pagan worship of the Queen of Heaven (Nimrod’s wife, and mother), Sun worship ( Nimrod, or Lucifer’s man on earth worship), and the return of Tammuz worship. This is the pagan Trinity, and is the Universal Church doctrine in a nut shell. The unification of all denominations may fit this belief system. All worship the same god sort of thing, Jews and true Christianity will be labeled hate speech. Kind of like now.

    • I think you’re right on with the whore. She is the Catholic church which rides the Vatican beast. And it only makes sense that its leader, the pope, would be the False Prophet. But the lawless one is not the Antichrist, he is the False Prophet. There is no Antichrist in Revelation. Only the False Prophet, the Vatican beast and Satan.
      There will not be a peace treaty nor a rebuilt temple featuring animal sacrifices. The last week of Daniel was fulfilled by the stoning of Steven which began Christianity and ended Judaism as the true church. Think about it – why would God be angry that someone were to stop animal sacrifices which were ended by the death of Jesus on the cross? Seems He would be angry if the Jews started them again, right?
      Anyway, something to think about.

      • Daniel 9:27 he cause the sacrifices to cease. The Jews do not accept Jesus. Therefore, they will do their sacrifices in the rebuilt Temple.

        Ezekiel chapter 40-42. The third Temple.

        The lawless one will receive a head wound, and be processed by the power of the beast from the bottomless pit. Part of the false Trinity during the last half of the peace treaty with the many.

        I do not fear the Pope, or the Universal Church. They have no power to cause all to take a mark, or not allow folks to buy, and sell.

        I respect your opinion James, but to me, the Bible does not support your stance.

        Anyway, we will see soon enough. The death of the martyrs is happening all through the Caliphate.

        Peace James.

        • The Jews haven’t done sacrifices for almost 2000 years and I doubt that they will start any time soon. Also Daniel mentions only “the daily” – the word “sacrifice” was added by the King James translator.
          Also the temple of Ezekiel is the millennium temple, and it will be built on the temple mount which is currently off-limits to Jews today, so any new temple would have to be built off-site.
          The head wound is one of the ten (plus the little horn) of the first beast, not the head of a man. The first beast is come and gone. There is no Antichrist so there won’t be a head wound. There is only the beast (a kingdom), the False Prophet and Satan. And this beast is the 2nd beast of Revelation, not the first. This beast (the Vatican) is still around and is the one the woman (false religion) rides and the one that is run by the False Prophet (the pope) who gets everyone to worship the Vatican beast system. And the pope already claims to be the substitute for Jesus, so claiming to be God is not a great step, especially if he were to produce some false miracles sometime soon.
          Your “Left Behind” scenario is quite popular but even its author admitted he had to take some license with the bible in order to create the story,
          I just don’t believe it will happen – it is too improbable plus as I’ve always claimed, the 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled in…
          You guessed it – 70 weeks! So that whole part of the story is already history so those verses are no longer in play.
          As you say, we will know soon enough.

          • daily sacrifices were called “tamid” which is the word used here….so even if someone wrote only “daily” ….saying daily sacriifces is actually correct.

          • Hi James.

            I don’t know why you insist I insinuate a left behind scenario. I wrote no such thing. It appears to me, right before Christ sends forth the wrath of G-d on his return, all innocent humans, and those who worship G-d in Christ’s name will be taken out of the way.

            I believe the Bible refers to a regional war that blows up into a global war of Gog/Magog. The lawless one shows himself as a man of peace bringing peace to the world, or a treaty with the many.

            The Messiah was cut off. How can Daniel’s 70 weeks be fulfilled if the Messiah was cut off at the 69th week. Wouldn’t the final 7 years be the years right before Christ’s return?

            If Israel destroys it’s neighbors, and brings Russia into the fight, a peace treaty giving the Jews part of the Mount is no great stretch.

            I don’t like the Pope, or the Universal Church bringing all kinds of paganism to those who could not read, or write, and were at the mercy of evil men masking their agenda by stating it is G-d’s will.

            Have a great evening James. I enjoy reading your posts.

  325. All misinterpretation!
    This I know “Christianity” will not accept Christ. Why, because they will not recognize him! Only those who understand the truth will be with the Lord. All nations will fight against their Messiah. Why, they will say this is he who was to come before the Lord, the man of sin. But he has come and is still with us today. So be careful my friends remember what the Jews said Acts5:39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Unfortunately this will be the case. Check out Psalm 2 speaking of the Lord reigning in Jerusalem.

    • Letherneck others.

      We Arameans are the first Christians, and when ever since we became Christians, we have had contact with Yehoshua when he was in the sky. He says that the Trinity doctrine is true. When you say that the trinity is pagan you are talking against Yehoshua. Yehoshua gave us the doctrine of not having the 2nd Peter, 2nd and 3rd John, Jude and Revelation in our New Testament. So we do not have those in our New Testament as they contain large errors. I warn you. When you say that the trinity is false, then you talk against our father’s son. I have warned you now!

      trev and others

      Christians will accept Christ but not protestants when he returns. But the rest you say agree with you until Acts 5:39. that says if it be off God, ye cannot overthrow it. Islam has been like a cancer on earth since stan planted it and it is still cancer on Earth so this verse is false in a short perspective but in future it will be true when Islam wipes of the map and that day I will celebrate with a vintage wine.

      • Why is that protestants won’t accept Jesus when He returns? What do they lack you think?

    • trev

      you have a point. the entire world has become “antichrist” in spirit, and all nations were predicted to turn against Jerusalem.

  326. I STRONGLY ADVISE EVERYONE HERE TO GO TO YOUTUBE AND WATCH MESSAGE SERMON OF AN END TIME MESSAGE CHURCH CALLED THE BRIDE ASSEMBLY LAGOS CHURCH. AND ALL YOUR QUESTIONS WILL BE ANSWERED WHEN YOU WATCH THE STORED MESSAGE SERMONS THERE ON YOUTUBE…… youtube.com/thelightpassion ( Behold the Anti Christ ) there you will understand the woman that sits on 7 hills,…..God Bless you all as you watch !!!!!

  327. Impossible, the beast is the same beast at different epochs of time.
    It’s all centred in Europe and the middle east.
    Who-ever becomes the beast is the military ruler of the old roman empire.Who will confederate all those nations? It is Europe and who ever rules turkey, which will probably be Russia. Daniels image must stand up at the time of the end.
    Rome will ride the beast again as it has in years in the past.
    Please check out

  328. Trev,
    He is confused at the beginning. He says that John is talking future. Actually it says in Rev, 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter.
    The woman is Israel, she has the moon at her feet, the ancient moon god from which Islam arises.

    God speaking to the serpent says,
    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The moon is at her feet, Jesus bruised Satan’s head at the Cross, although the dragon bruised Jesus’ heel. Who today is saying, Come let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance? It is the nations that directly surround Israel, not Rome. Rome is saying, can’t we all get along.

    Rev. 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.
    1. Egypt
    2. Assyria
    3. Babylon
    4. Medopersia
    5. Greece
    6. Rome… one is to John
    7.Islam had not yet come…future to John
    8. The final Beast is of the seven, and goes into perdition.
    Revived Islam is the beast that was, and now is. His deadly wound has been healed.

    Rev. 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    This time the Lamb wins.

    • So when and how did Islam receive a deadly wound? And when was it revived? How was it restored?
      It seems to me Islam has been steadily growing since its beginnings. If you are referring to the Ottoman empire, that was controlled by Turkey, so is Turkey going to gain control of the whole world? If the 8th is of the 7th, then this must be true.We are talking here of the beast with 7 heads and 10 horns where the seven heads are 7 mountains on which the woman (apostate church) sits. The city of 7 hills was certainly Rome to John, so the woman must be the Vatican. The woman is clothed in purple and scarlet, clearly related to the Catholic church and not any other religion and the golden cup clearly represents the communion cup in the catholic mass.
      How do you get these verses to fit perfectly into Islam? Who are the seven heads and ten horns? Sorry but I don’t see how you can properly explain all the other verses which everyone seems to ignore when it comes to your interpretation.
      Rev 1-3 is all about how the early Christian churches were already going astray. If that is how the Book of Revelation starts, why does it end with the destruction of Islam rather than the destruction of pagan practices within Christianity today, of which there are many. That’s like writing a book about the events leading up to the civil war, then describing the destruction at Hiroshima.
      The Book of Revelation should read like a novel with a central theme and a continuous story line. There is no link from Rome to the Ottoman Empire. They do not follow one another. And the beast exists for 1260 years – the exact length of the Holy Roman Empire, not the ottoman empire. And the Holy Roman Empire directly follows from the Roman empire. And it was run by the Vatican, the church on 7 mountains. And it is highly apostate – full of old Roman pagan practices forced on it by the emperor Constantine. History proves all of this. It is prophecy fulfilled.
      Anything else is just wishful thinking – Christians who want to put the wrath of God on some other poor religions.

      • the woman and the beast are two different things, that are joined.

        the woman may be a city, but the beast is described in daniel and in revelation as a combination of kingdoms…..

        the horns are also a separate issue

        so the rome on 7 hills rides a large kingdom, islam, which is a combination of the greek, roman, and medo persian empires.

        rome is already in bed with islam

        • The pope is not now nor ever will be in control of Islam. He may placate them rather than antagonize them for fear that more Christians might be targeted throughout the Muslim world. But the pope will never say that the Koran is a true and holy book and that Jesus Christ was not the son of God etc.
          Remember, the pope’s title is “Substitute for the Son of God” so if he were to agree with the Koran he would no longer be qualified to be pope. So the whole idea is silly, but I guess it is necessary if you buy into any or all of the “Left Behind” scenario and a One-World religion.
          But it just won’t happen.

      • Above the following comment was made by James Giordano:

        “The woman is clothed in purple and scarlet, clearly related to the Catholic church and not any other religion and the golden cup clearly represents the communion cup in the catholic mass.”

        Regarding the colors of “purple and scarlet” not being significant or associated with any other religion…..
        To refresh your memory, perhaps you should read Exodus 25:4., 26:1., 26:31., 26:36., 27:16., 28:5., 28:6., 28:8., 28:15., 28:33., 35:6., 35:23., 35:25., 35:35., 36:8., 36:35., 36:37., 38:18., 38:23., 39:1., 39:2., 39:3., 39:5., 39:8., 39:24., and 39:29..

        In respects to the “golden cup”…. there is Jeremiah 51:7.
        “Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD’S hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.”

        Therefore, logically then, John is recording visions of a future city which would demonstrate all of the characteristics that the original Babylon possessed.
        Is it Rome?
        Possibly….
        However there is far more Scripture available that would suggest that this “Mystery Babylon” is an entirely different city.
        Could I suggest that you watch this in its entirety, and compare its weight with that of Rome and see which is the most likely.

        Any true student of the Word will research all available information before coming to any conclusion.
        It’s up to you James.

        • Isaiah 46:9,10.;
          “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”

          The Father also says through Solomon in Ecclesiastes 1:9.;
          “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.”

          Therefore, the Tanakh should posses all of the necessary information to establish “who and what” this mysterious city Babylon is.
          The writings and text of the New and Better Covenant would only provide new and further information, which one would then utilize to confirm what the Tanakh has already said regarding Babylon.

          Personally….. I haven’t found anything within the Tanakh that would suggest that it was Rome.
          There is however, a preponderance of evidence in Scripture that would instead suggest, that this Mystery Babylon is that of Jerusalem.

        • Mystery Babylon is an ancient religion dating back to the time of Niimrod and Semiramis. It is the origin of Baal worship and many of its pagan elements are still in the modern Catholic church. These include Christmas, lent, Easter etc.
          As for the colors, they refer to an end-time church, not ancient Israel. Don’t forget the rest of Rev 18 –
          Rev 18:12 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
          Rev 18:12
          The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
          Rev 18:13
          And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
          These verses do not describe ancient Israel or even modern Israel.
          If you insist on looking for a city, try Vatican City. Its in the city of 7 hills (Rome) in the kingdom that “reigneth over the kings of the earth” at the time John wrote the book.
          I watched 2 hours of the video and I must disagree with his premise. The women in Revelation are churches – one true and the other (who rides the beast) is apostate. The true church will be the bride of Christ while the false churches will be destroyed.
          Beasts in prophecy refer to kingdoms or empires, not people.
          I think the author believes in the “Left Behind” scenario with a New World Order run by an antichrist. He also thinks that the 70-week prophecy of Daniel is not yet concluded. That is false, it ended over 2000 years ago.
          And for logical reasons I can’t believe that the Book of Revelation was written for the Jews, not Christians. After all, no Jew is going to study the New Testament and believe it is true prophesy. The book was written for Christians and the mark of the beast and the seven last plagues and all the warnings within the book are for us Christians, not the Jews, Muslims or any other religious groups.
          That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

          • Well Mr. G. you certainly can believe what you wish to believe….. though I will respond to a couple of your above comments.
            You say, “As for the colors, they refer to an end-time church, not ancient Israel.” (???)

            Where have you come up from scripture that any of Revelation, (past 4:1) has anything to do with a church? (Ekklēsia isn’t utilized once after 3:14.)
            Where is Gods fulfilment’s to His Covenants with the Fathers regarding Israel if they are not within the Book of Revelation?
            Did He in His Glory forget or just change His mind?

            Regarding where you have quoted Revelation 18:12,13., and then state, “These verses do not describe ancient Israel or even modern Israel.”

            I would respond with, “What about the possibility of a future Jerusalem, one in which the anti-christ is in charge of? Do you think that when that happens he will be living in poverty?

            You continue by saying, “If you insist on looking for a city, try Vatican City. Its in the city of 7 hills (Rome) in the kingdom that “reigneth over the kings of the earth” at the time John wrote the book.”

            Well first of all, John was witnessing a vision of prophecy, regarding what would occur in the future. So it is completely irrelevant as to “who” was reigning over the kings of the earth at that particular time.

            Secondly, regarding the city of 7 hills……..

            Okay……. Let’s take a second and look at that actual text. Revelation 17:9 and 10 are translated in the King James as follows;
            “(9) And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
            “(10) “And” there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”

            Now you are placing a very high percentage of what you believe in, by trusting that the word “And” in the beginning of verse 10 in the King James, (or whatever your Bible is and how it reads), should indeed be translated as such, rather than it should have been translated as something else. And that Revelation 17:10. is actually a complete sentence on its own.

            That “and” there was derived from the transliterated Greek “kai”, which can also mean “even or also”.
            So lets look at some other versions of Revelation 17:10.

            From the American Standard Version
            “and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while.”

            From the Bible in Basic English
            “And they are seven kings; the five have come to an end, the one is, the other has not come; and when he comes, he will have to go on for a little time.”

            From the Complete Jewish Bible
            Where in that version what is the beginning of verse 10 in most Bibles, is actually tacked on to the end of verse 9.
            “This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven hills on which the woman is sitting; also they are seven kings-”

            The Common English Bible
            They follow suit and do the same thing by tacking the beginning of verse 10 onto the end of verse 9.
            “This calls for an understanding mind. the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated. They are also seven kings.”

            The English Standard Version
            “they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.”

            I could continue on and on here with the Gods Word Translation, the Good News Translation, the Hebrew Names Version….. etc. etc. All of which would state that there aren’t seven “literal” mountains, but that these “seven heads” are “seven mountains” which are in reality…. “SEVEN KINGS!”

            So the point that you utilize to substantiate your theology, that being that Rome happened to be built on seven hills, is not even relevant to the text whatsoever? The seven heads are seven mountains and the seven mountains are seven kings!

            Any way’s, I can see by your response above that you have many views that could categorize you to that of a Preterist.
            So I will conclude this discussion and leave you to your own beliefs.
            (Boy do you have a surprise in your future)
            🙂

            • BJ,
              First of all, I don’t believe in an antichrist. One is never mentioned in Daniel or Revelation.
              The beasts are always kingdoms, so there is only the beast kingdom which is the Vatican, and its leader the False Prophet which will be the current and last pope according to the prophecy of St, Malachy.
              So I agree that there are 7 kings or rather kingdoms, starting with Daniel (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome), then the four that John mentions. He calls the first two actual beasts – the Holy Roman Empire and after it ended, the Vatican which officially became a kingdom in 1929.
              The next “king” is the European Union which formed in 2010. This is the 7th in the series.
              The 8th and final kingdom will be a restored Holy Roman Empire with the False Prophet in charge of all religious matters. He need not say anything to fulfil the prophecy that the False Prophet (not some antichrist) will claim to be God on earth – that is his title. And that title in Latin is Vicarius Filii Deus adds up to 666 in Roman numerals.
              So the kings alone are all I need to prove my point but add to that the fact that the beast kingdom now sits in the city of 7 hills and the fact that the first 7 kings are already fulfilled and there is no doubt in my mind that I am correct.
              In your case some powerful dictator has to take over the world and set up his throne in Jerusalem. How do you suppose he will do that? What are the odds that such an event could happen? Ask 100 people and see if they think such a thing could ever happen, let alone be imminent.
              But in my scenario, it is 99% fulfilled. And it is no stretch that the Vatican and European Union could combine forces to resist Muslim infiltration in an attempt to spread Islam into Europe.
              But you’re right, if such a crazy idea like a worldwide dictator taking over the earth and forcing everyone to worship him as God ever happens, I will be surprised.
              I would be less surprised if Martians invaded New Jersey or a bigfoot army took over Seattle.
              🙂

              • You’re an amusing guy there James……

                You say above,
                “But you’re right, if such a crazy idea like a worldwide dictator taking over the earth and forcing everyone to worship him as God ever happens, I will be surprised.”

                No you’re right James. “That’s crazy that some world dictator, a man of sin will be revealed, (the son of perdition), who will opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

                Nah that sounds too much like Scripture for that to ever happen at all.
                SURPRISED?
                You will be.

                I have bounced in here a couple of times over the last couple of months and have to say, it’s been quite an experience to see what some people think.
                But you rank right up there in the category of bizarre.
                Thanks for the entertainment. But all good things come to an end.
                Best of luck in what you wish to believe.

              • There is no doubt the Anti-christ, the man of sin is the pope, he represents the beast system which has been with us for about 1700 years. Do you think the RCC would like the position of the Pope to be lost at the Lord’s return? They will never accept the Lord, they will point the finger and say this is the one we have told you about that is to come. He’s the Anti-christ. But it is the Lord. This is why the city of Rome will be destroyed. The 10 kings and there kingdoms will make war with the lamb.
                Rev 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
                Rev 17:13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.
                Rev 17:14 They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful.”
                One hour in revelation represents 30 years. So I believe at a future time, (the time of trouble like there never was before) the RCC will head the confederation of nations (the West)in the area of the old roman Empire and Russia (in the East) will be the King of the North.Russia will take Turkey which makes it the king of the North. Eze 38:5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
                Read psalm 2. They will fight the Lord thinking he is the Anti-Christ.
                Take Care

              • When Russia makes its grand move for the building-up of its Image-empire, then let the reader know that the end of all things, as at present constituted, is at hand. The long-expected, but stealthy advent of the King of Israel, will be on the eve of becoming a fact; and salvation will be to those who not only looked for it, but have trimmed their lamps by believing the gospel of the kingdom unto the obedience of faith, and the perfection thereof in “fruits meet for repentance
                This is from the book Elpis Israel (The hope of Israel) written in 1848.
                Please check the book out online. http://elpisisrael.bereans.org/cgi-bin/show.cgi?n=0
                Take Care

              • jim

                the vatican does not resist islam…it is in bed with it….the pope has kissed the quran, and says he has the same god as the muslims

                the vatican rides the beast of islam…that is they work together to turn this world over to satan

            • “(10) “And” there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come, and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.”
              The five had fallen in John’s day no other time in history.

              • No, the five had fallen at that point in John’s vision. He had just described his 2nd beast (the Vatican) which was the 6th overall beast from Babylon. The Holy Roman Empire and the Vatican had both received deadly wounds, and the Vatican was healed in 1929 by Mussolini. The Holy Roman Empire will soon be restored as well, as the 8th kingdom of the 7th.
                It is a common mistake to think that John jumps out of his future vision and then describes events that occurred at the time of his imprisonment. Then he jumps back to the future? That is poor writing technique, wouldn’t you say?
                But that doesn’t stop many people from jumping all around the worlds with beasts being America, or a new Islamic kingdom or whatever they can conjure up. But the story is much simpler than that. It starts with God’s people in Babylon, then takes them up to Rome, where God’s people shift from the Jews to the Christians in 34 AD with the stoning of Steven.
                Then Rome was in control of the Christians, then the Holy Roman Empire. Now the Vatican encompasses 1.3 billion Christians, by far the bulk of the total of christianity. But this whore church has spawned many harlot daughter churches as well, so Protestants are included also. Any church that celebrates pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter and who thinks to change God’s word by moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday will be destroyed when Babylon (paganism) is stripped from the churches when Jesus returns.
                That is the message of Revelation, and it is not for the Jews or Islam. God only punishes His own people when they backslide and this time they are Christians. The mark of the beast will teach them a lesson. If you think you will be able to sit back and watch God pour out His wrath on other religions, then your are in for a really big surprise!

                • “No, the five had fallen at that point in John’s vision. So what are you saying different than me?”

                  • You say the one that “is” was back in 96 AD. I’m saying that the time of the second beast is around 1929-present, and it still “is”.
                    John made the statement as it pertained to the story he was telling. And at that point in the prophecy the Vatican had become a beast (kingdom) so the “is” refers to that time in history.
                    It may seem counter intuitive but think of it like a time travel movie – When people in the film refer to a time frame they are not referring to the time when the author wrote the novel or screenplay but to that time in the future where they are visiting.
                    It took me years to figure that out but it made the whole story flow correctly. Otherwise you must jump out if the prophecy, return to the time the book was written and look around for kings who lived in a completely different time than the prophecy was previously describing.
                    Unfortunately, most people have no problem in doing that.

                    • jim

                      the bible is clear that “is” refers to the time of John

                      the bible then uses the term “yet to come” for the future, past the time of john

                • JIm
                  You said
                  Any church that celebrates pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter and who thinks to change God’s word by moving the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday will be destroyed when Babylon (paganism) is stripped from the churches when Jesus returns.

                  Then you said…

                  If you think you will be able to sit back and watch God pour out His wrath on other religions, then your are in for a really big surprise!

                  Everyone thinks they have the truth.. God elects those who have the truth. Those who are not of the truth will never ever see or discern the truth because they are not of the flock, I believe the Trinity is Pagan and a doctrine of great Blasphemy. This doctrine ties all that believe this to the mother church.

                  I guess what you are saying is ” I will sit back and see God’s wrath poured out because I have the truth”. I agree Xmas and Easter is Pagan and nothing to do with the body of the Lord Jesus.
                  Take Care

                  • ANY religion that opposes the will and truth of god will see wrath….

                    islam is not exempt or any other either

                    • When the Lord returns to the world those who have the truth will be with him. We will meet him in clouds.This will be a small number. The world and the Apostate Pagan Trinitarian Churches will not recognize him as the Jews in the ministry of the Lord. All “Christians” left will not accept him. Why? False doctrine.
                      Actually some will probably will fight against him. The Lord is King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
                      No other will see the truth but these.

                      Who will abide the day of his coming?? Take Care

                  • Trev.

                    This will more than likely be my last comment here……
                    But are you sure that you possess the whole truth?

                    You say the you don’t believe in what is referred to as the Trinity?
                    Do you understand the significance of the Hebrew “‘Elohiym ” ?

                    Do you believe that Yeshua, (Jesus) is YHVH?

                    Perhaps you should take the time to read the following…..

                    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Yeshua_is_Adonai/yeshua_is_adonai.html

                    • Before you give me a lecture on this word ‘elohim’
                      Please check out this.
                      Why does Paul call the ‘elohim’ Angels?
                      Because that is what they are.
                      The Angels.. not 3 but 1,000s x 1,000s.
                      I suggest you check these 3 verses.
                      Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
                      Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
                      Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

                      That word in Psalms is ‘elohim’ but Paul calls them Angels.
                      There is no doubt the angels created in Gen 1.
                      Why?
                      Psa_103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.
                      Also at the burning Bush it was an angel. It says it was Yahweh but Stephen says it was an Angel.
                      Peter says No man has seen God at any time. Who wrestled with Jacob? An Angel.
                      This is called God manifestation. He represents God. The family name is Yahweh. I WILL BE.
                      Take Care

                  • trev

                    the word elohim in psalms 8 refers to God, angels, and anything else in heaven…it does not refer to angels alone

                    there are different words for angels or words that get translated that way:

                    H47 ‘abbiyr ab·bēr’ bulls, strong (ones), mighty, stouthearted, valiant, angels, chiefest
                    H430 ‘elohiym el·ō·hēm’ God, god, judge, GOD, goddess, great, mighty, angels, exceeding, God-ward, godly
                    H4397 mal’ak mal·äk’ angel, messenger, ambassadors, variant
                    H4398 mal’ak (Aramaic) mal·ak’ angel
                    H8136 shin’an shin·än’ angel

                • Jim/James
                  There is only one whore and that it is not the Vatican but you! You are a false prophet and the Pope is not. He never says something will happen in future and it does not like you say. Your words are satans.

                  And Trevs word that Russia will take over Turkey. What a joke. Russia knows that muslims are trouble. they have enough problems
                  with Chechnya. They will never add more problems with the muslims. I have never read about so many false prophets in one and same place like on this blog.

                  I can give you a prophecy about future if you want. I support the Vatican. Gods son will soon meet the MMA champion in cage fighting if he gets enough money. When you see this happen then you know that thoose that support the Vatican can give prophecy 🙂

        • Of course it is Rome. How blind can people be or do they think the Trinitarian Roman Catholic Church and all its harlot offshoots are of Christ. The Pope describes himself as the God of the Earth. Come to me for forgiveness he says.
          The Anti-Christ, the man of sin came out from the Church and history shows the RCC under the military might of Constantine established their power. The Lord says be not of this world. He also says if my kingdom was of this AGE (world) then my servants would fight. The word is the only way to fight the things of this world. But there will be a time when the servants of the Lord will fight at his return.
          How many true believers did the RCC murder? How many translators did they kill?
          Rev 12 describes the Apostate Church being with child, who committed adultery with the world. She should of been pure but she brought forth a child named Constantine. The Pagan Trinity became doctrine and Pagan Festivals such as Easter and Xmas were adopted into the Apostate church.
          Those who had the truth had to flee to the extremities of the Empire fearing persecution and even death.
          That great city is Rome
          Rev 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
          Which city ruled over the earth in John’s time??? Rome of course

  329. 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen?
    Did John see the 1st 5 Empires?? NO!!!
    So the interpretation has to be wrong. I believe the things seen are God’s revelations to John..
    Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must SHORTLY COME TO PASS; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must SHORTLY BE DONE.

    Why did the Lord repeat himself, to remind us it’s prophecy!!

    • Trev,
      Did John see (in his vision) the first five empires?
      Yes.
      Rev. 11:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,
      10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

      The first five are fallen because they were in John’s past.
      One is during John’s lifetime. Not the Catholic Church, but the Roman Empire.
      The other is not yet come — Islam/Mohammid was before John’s time.

      When did Islam die of a deadly head wound and then revive?
      Mohammid died and only lived a relatively short life. (see verse 10 above) He died and his religion that he started struggled after the Dome of the Rock was set up, but now it has revived big time. They are no longer just in the Middle East.

      Islam is the seventh
      Revived Islam is of the seven and is the eighth and final beast.

      11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

      Revived Islam.

      Rev.18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. 6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled, fill to her double.

      • actually Islam took a blow during the crusades, then revived after that

        the reference to the deadly wound could also refer to a person, who is the antichrist, a future, not past personality

        • The Anti -Christ comes out of the Church. Either you believe John or NOT. I know some people think all Christians are of Christ. But if beliefs are wrong if the hope they hope for is wrong. If they worship God in the wrong way then they will end up like Cain.
          The truth will be a small minority of “Christianity” they are elected and brought to the truth by the Father. Those who have not the truth will never discern it.
          Don’t go to Islam. Revelation is about the Roman Empire and the RCC.
          God used Islam to punish Rome, it’s in Chapter 9. Very Obvious if you study it.
          We will see Europe and the RCC come together as in the past.
          Who will be the Dragon? Well the dragon is where the beast gets his power. In the past it’s been Justinian and Charlemagne. The Vatican has never had it’s own power but from the Dragon it get’s power.
          Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
          Take Care

  330. Hello B.J.

    I think “The Beast” is “power” and a “system” that reflects and is reflective of the phrase – “as above, so below” (a demonic reference).

    There is evidence of “The Beast” in London, Washington DC, Paris, Rome and ancient Egypt. We could expect to find evidence in Babylon too (governance, religion and institution). I think you noted Babylon in a reply that referenced the Tower of Babel (see One World Tower in NYC).

    We can “see” the evidence of “The Beast” in this segment from a longer presentation – “Secrets in Plain Sight” . This segment reviews an interesting “alignment” of power, money, law, and “the church” within the history of London. A very interesting history.

    There are also connections and correlations between London, Paris, Rome and Egypt. You will see that there is a correlation/connection between Washington DC, London, Paris and Egypt too.

    The Beast maybe worldwide?

    I think “The Beast” is a system designed by Satan (very intelligent imitator of God) and Satan’s fingerprints are in plain sight (“as above, so below”).

    666 is the mark of “man” who does not know God or His Son (1st John chapter 5).

    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+5&version=NKJV

    The mark is upon Islam and any religion that does not accept/believe what we read in 1st John chapter 5.

    The Beast is evident in “religions of the world” as well as governments, monarchies, banking (13 Central Banks of the World), and probably every institution and organization established by man. This would include Masonic and other such “secret societies” around the world.

    Satan needs people (non-Belivers) and demons to advance his plans on earth, which is a well designed system (Beast).

    Rome? Sure. Da Pope is involved very deeply.

    However, “Rome” is very limiting to an intelligent creation of God named Lucifer.

    I think you will “see” what I mean after watching the following video segment regarding London. There are other video segments to explore (Washington DC, Paris, Rome, Egypt and other subjects).

    Blessings
    Psalm 140

    “Deliver me, O Lord, from evil men;
    Preserve me from violent men,
    Who plan evil things in their hearts;
    They continually gather together for war.
    They sharpen their tongues like a serpent;
    The poison of asps is under their lips. Selah

    Keep me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked;
    Preserve me from violent men,
    Who have purposed to make my steps stumble.
    The proud have hidden a snare for me, and cords;
    They have spread a net by the wayside;
    They have set traps for me. Selah

    I said to the Lord: “You are my God;
    Hear the voice of my supplications, O Lord.
    O GOD the Lord, the strength of my salvation,

    You have covered my head in the day of battle.
    Do not grant, O Lord, the desires of the wicked;
    Do not further his wicked scheme,
    Lest they be exalted. Selah

    “As for the head of those who surround me,
    Let the evil of their lips cover them;
    Let burning coals fall upon them;
    Let them be cast into the fire,
    Into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
    Let not a slanderer be established in the earth;
    Let evil hunt the violent man to overthrow him.”
    I know that the Lord will maintain
    The cause of the afflicted,
    And justice for the poor.

    Surely the righteous shall give thanks to Your name;
    The upright shall dwell in Your presence” (NKJV).

    • you think the beast and babylon are the same, or different?

    • This whole idea is just a big exercise in futility. I could draw thousands of lines thru thousands of buildings around the world and find thousands of other buildings on the same lines, then come up with thousands of stories relating them to possible future world events. It proves nothing but that someone has a vivid imagination.
      The problem is that there are too many different locations here. Instead of locking in one definite location, the more he looked the more places he found until he had to assume it was a worldwide thing. It reminds me of all the Nibiru researchers that had thousands of sightings of the hoax planet all over the universe and all at the same time.
      All we need is the word of God and a knowledge of the bible and history in order to understand prophecy. This type of nonsense along with numerology and astrology is completely unnecessary and only leads to thousands of misinterpretations.
      To me its all just a big waste of time, but who knows, if you do enough of this stuff maybe one might turn out to be correct – even a broken clock is right twice a day. 🙂

  331. Trev,

    I guess I was wrong, in the above being my last response, (though I’ll restrain myself from this point forward).

    I can see that debating here could be a gigantic waste of my time and energies, and pull me away from what the Lord has called me/us to do.
    However, I must respond to a few of the things that you have said before I go.

    Above you have said in a post, April 4th. @ 12:19am.
    “Protesting Churches are Pagan Trinitarian worshippers as the RCC, One of the children of the Mother of Harlots and no doubt believe in fallen angels which is absolutely blasphemy.”

    You say that believing in fallen angels is tantamount to blasphemy…… Really?
    Have you read the Book of Enoch?
    You know…. “Enoch” the 7th. from Adam through the lineage of Seth.
    The one that is referred to as a “prophet” by Jude in Jude 1:14.

    Jude would perhaps argue with your above statement.
    Simply because of what Jude writes in Jude 1:6.
    “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

    And I suspect that Peter would debate that premise as well, by what he writes in 2 Peter 2:4.
    “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;”

    Angels that sinned? Left their own habitation? Reserved in chains of darkness until the judgement?
    Gosh that sure sounds like “fallen angels” to me.

    How about Job 4:18. too?
    “Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly:?

    The above would be referring to those of Genesis 6:2 and 4. “the sons of God” or “ben Elohiym”.

    You also state in your reply directly to me on April 4th. @ 12:39am. “There is no doubt the angels created in Gen 1.” and then attempt to back that statement up by culling out a verse from Psalms 103:20, “Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.”

    It is my opinion that you haven’t necessarily learned as how to maintain context within your hermeneutics.
    There is not one verse within either the Old or New Covenant Scripture that would confirm that the angels created anything.
    However regarding Yeshua, (Elohiym) we have…….

    John 1:1-3., we have written;
    “In the beginning was the Word, (Yeshua) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM (Yeshua); and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANYTHING MADE THAT WAS MADE.”

    Paul in Colossians 1:16,17.;
    “For by him (Yeshua) WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM (Yeshua), and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

    As does what Paul wrote in Ephesians 3:9.;
    “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, “WHO CREATED ALL THINGS BY JESUS CHRIST”:”

    As what is written in Hebrews 2:10.;
    “For it became him (Yeshua), for whom are all things, and “BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS”, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

    Have a good one Trev.
    You Take Care too.
    🙂

  332. Firstly you have not given me a explanation of Ps 8:5.
    Elohim=angels.
    The angels that sinned.
    Well I know there are many verses that seems to support your doctrine but if understood it can be explained consistently with Bible teaching.
    God has his elect ,whoever it may be they have the truth. Those who are not of the elect will never ever understand the truth or come to a knowledge of that truth.
    They will blaspheme God because they do not teach the truth.
    Churches teach such things as heaven going at death which is not found in the Bible. Read 1 cor 15. The reward is with the Lord at his return.
    But far as Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day;”
    Angels there is messengers which of course you know also a title given to men.
    Read the whole chapter it’s talking of Sin , flesh sins, not Divine nature.
    It’s men that go astray.
    Read the context it’s speaking of leaders in the congregation.
    So Obvious.
    And who were the messengers? Read numbers 16. It’s perfectly in context.
    What does the Lord say about angels?
    Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
    What’s the wages of sin?? Death? Angels do not die. So they cannot sin.
    A divine body which we are given if found worthy will never die and cannot sin,
    If a divine body is bias to sin (as we are) then what’s the purpose if we end up like the so called “fallen angels”
    Paul knew the only hope was to shed his mortal body by the resurrection. He new in the flesh there is no good. But the burden of this sinful body will be lifted and becoming as the Angels that never die, and therefore never sin. Very Logical.
    Another thing Peter says no man has see God at anytime. Do we believe this?
    Moses saw an angel, Jacob wrestled with an Angel. No man has seen God at any time.
    Take Care

    • Trev,

      Okay I’m weak, and have difficulty in not responding to those that believe that they have all of the answers. I’ll try harder to not come back and bother to read your next response at all. Because I was right in that this is a gigantic waste of time.

      Why should I provide you with an explanation of Psalms 8:5?
      You simply wouldn’t accept what I would have to say regarding it anyway.

      You never responded to my question as to whether or not you understood that Yeshua is YHVH?
      Nor do I suspect that you bothered to research the link that I had provided to you regarding that fact, (like you didn’t search out the Book of Enoch and investigate its contents either).

      Speaking of logic, here’s a another question for you regarding the Trinity that you don’t believe in….
      “Why are we told to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit if they are not intimately interwoven together? (Matthew 28:19.)
      Scripture states that if you are only baptized in the name of the Lord Yeshua, you won’t necessarily receive the Spirit. (Acts 8:14-17).
      Think about that, and how that is logically possible if a Trinity doesn’t exist at all.

      You also say, “God has his elect ,whoever it may be they have the truth. Those who are not of the elect will never ever understand the truth or come to a knowledge of that truth.”

      Well those “eklektos” or chosen would have God’s Spirit, and it is His Spirit that reveals the truth of His word. 1 Corinthians 2:10-13.
      However, if you are not fully aware of Who Yeshua is….. do you actually receive that Spirit of truth?
      “For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”
      2 Corinthians 11:4.

      2 Corinthians 15 is speaking of a rapture, a gathering, a resurrection which is referred to in many different passages of Scripture, (of which you probably don’t believe in either).

      Now you introduce another subject and error in what you have been taught, by saying, “Churches teach such things as heaven going at death which is not found in the Bible.”

      What Bible are you reading?

      Here are just a few verses for you to peruse which should cause for you to perhaps rethink that belief, (and go buy a different Bible).
      Of course none of them come right out and say verbatim, “Hey you! you go to heaven when you die”, but please dude, pull your head out of the dirt.

      John 5:24-26.
      John 6:58.
      John 11:25,26.
      John 12:26.
      John 17:24.

      2 Corinthians 5:1.
      2 Corinthians 5:8.

      Philippians 1:21-23.

      1 Thessalonians 5:9,10.

      2 Timothy 1:10.

      I truly wish that you find the truth Trev, but I will take Paul’s advice from Romans 16:17., and will not return.
      “Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.”

      Praise Yeshua.

  333. Actually I have given you an explanation to the question, whether or not you understood that Yeshua is YHVH?
    Its called God manifestation. Do you understand this?
    What does it mean when it says of an angel? Exo_23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.
    What’s the name?
    Who was with Moses at the burning bush ? Yahweh? Yes, but it was an Angel. Just ask Stephen. Remember Peter said No man has seen God at any time. So if Peter is right then it was an Angel with the name of Yahweh.
    So Ex 23;21 is the explanation. God manifestation.
    And we can gain that name also as the Lord says
    Rev_3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God,
    So is the Lord Yahshua, Yahweh? Of course, not a trinity but of the divine Family of God in which he has the highest position besides his Father.
    Joh_5:43 I am come in MY FATHER’S NAME, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
    You said
    Of course none of them come right out and say verbatim, “Hey you! you go to heaven when you die”,
    Yes you are right , you have convinced me you are wrong, you presume that it says that but it does not. It’s called preconceived ideas.
    The meek shall inherit the earth, we shall reign as kings and priests.
    The hope of Israel!
    Yes we will meet the lord in clouds, we will be gathered.
    I know ps 8.5 is straight forward and Paul’s explanation can not be changed. This verse surprises many I have spoken too.
    This one may surprise you even more
    Psa_68:17 The chariots of Elohim are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.
    Yes I have read the Book of Enoch!
    Take Care

    • J67
      The problem of presumptions and preconceived ideas runs rampant in Christianity today. People grow up hearing certain traditions and they become ingrained in their minds by adulthood and the are simply jettison them when confronted with the truth.
      Nowhere in the bible either New Testament or Old Testament does God say we go to be in heaven with him as soon as we die. In fact Jesus says 14 times that the dead are asleep and know nothing until he returns to resurrect them.
      This also applies to the idea of the trinity. It was an invention of the Catholic church and not taught in the Old Testament or by Jesus.

      Same is true about hell. The bible never teaches that the wicked are judged when they die and are sent directly to hell. In fact there is no mention of such a place and the only reason it is in the bible is that the King James translators replaced the word “grave” with “hell” 32 times because of their own preconceived ideas.
      And don’t even get me started on the rapture, or the change of the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. These false doctrines are so ingrained in the minds of today’s Christians that many of them will reject Jesus when he returns and call him a false Christ and will join in the battle of Armageddon to fight against him.
      And it will be misinformed Christians who will hate and finally kill the two witnesses when they arrive.
      There will be no shortage of apostate churches when Jesus returns, and it is they who constitute Babylon in Revelation.
      Now let’s wait and see how many people on this site disagree with us. How many will abandon the bible and stick steadfastly with the traditions of man rather than the word of God.

  334. The woman (city) will persecute the Jews and believers in the end times. She controls the beast by riding it.

    The woman is ROME the RCC. Which city has ever ruled over the world??? In John’s day it was ROME. How obvious. The Papacy is an Apostate Church. It killed the true believers. It murdered, it hid the word of God. It killed the translators, it has always traded in the souls of men.
    Take Care

  335. The woman is Mecca which is situated on 7 hills and definitely neither Rome nor Jerusalem.

    • aggie

      I think for a long time, no one thought of that possibility….very good chance mecca is it. but as I think, the beast hates the woman, and kills her….I see islam as the beast, and it would not kill its main city?

  336. I guess some cannot read, or just want to be blinded. The city is Rome, In John’s day it was Rome! And it will be Rome when the Lord returns. That city will say “This is the one we spoke of who would reign in Jerusalem” not the Lord but the Anti-Christ!
    Read Psalm 2 and tell me how that will be fulfilled!
    It’s so obvious to those who understand their Bible.

    • trev

      is rome drunk with the blood of christians and jews, and does it have the international trade described in rev 17-18?

      • What you are forgetting is that the prophecy spans 2,500 years from Babylon to the return of Christ. So Rome has been drunk on the blood of Muslims and Jews from the crusades and of over 100 million Christians in the inquisitions. Many Christians were beheaded and burned at the stake for not converting to Sunday worship after the council of Laodicea. Killed for following God’s commandment! Clearly the pope has always been the head man of sin and will soon become the False Prophet. Almost everything about the Roman Catholic Church is false.
        As for international trade, just check out a few of the Vaticans building projects over the centuries, like Vatican city and tens of thousands of cathedrals. And the Vatican virtually ran the Holy Roman Empire for 1260 years, and how much trade do you think went on then?
        They have more gold and jewels of any five countries combined. Can any other church or even religion on earth compare to the wealth of the Vatican? Not only do the bible verses fit, they fit more perfectly than anything else you could ever find, and after all, isn’t the bible about God’s church and not other churches? Even Baal worship stemmed from the false prophet of Judaism (Tammuz) and was the roots of the Mystery Babylon religion which is really the only other “religion” that God always complains about.
        And those complaints continue thru the Book of Revelation. The Mystery Babylon religion is even mentioned by name, but most people don’t recognise the words and think it is somehow talking about the ancient ruins in the desert of Iraq. But people in Johns time recognized it since it was still quite active back them and continued on to influence Christianity when the emperor Constantine created the great Universal church of the Roman empire which combined Christianity with pagan holidays (Christmas, St. Valentines Day and Easter) and the Mystery Babylon religion which was still popular in those days.
        So the bible verses all fit perfectly if you know what they refer to
        but when you go off into right filed and try to pin it all on the Muslims you find yourself tossing out 90% of the Book of Revelation because you can’t make it fit properly, which seems to be OK for many people.
        Close enough for God’s work???

        • jim

          look at the list. does Rome trade this way? with these items.? answer is not really.

          Babylon is a great city, so we should look closer at the rest of the merchandize it sells:

          gold, and silver,

          precious stones,

          pearls,

          fine linen,

          purple,

          and silk, (china?)

          and scarlet,

          and all thyine wood,

          and all manner vessels of ivory, (china, Africa)

          and all manner vessels of most precious wood,

          and of brass,

          and iron,

          and marble,

          And cinnamon,

          and odours, and ointments,

          and frankincense,

          and wine,

          and oil,

          and fine flour,

          and wheat,

          and beasts,

          and sheep,

          and horses,

          and chariots, (automobiles)

          check the exports for Rome / Italy and see what you can find.

  337. Marianne,
    You are using a double-standard here. You are comparing ancient Babylon to present-day Rome. So I will do the same.
    Present-day Babylon is in ruins and according to God will never be anything more than a habitat for birds. And ancient Rome (the Vatican and the Holy Roman Empire) was a world empire dealing with all the aforementioned items.
    And as I just said, Mystery Babylon is an ancient religion, not a city. The list refers to the first beast of Revelation which is the Holy Roman Empire, not Islam. This list refers to a beast that lasted for 1260 years (time, times and dividing of time) and has been replaced by another beast with all the religious authority of the Holy Roman Empire but without the political power. That would be the current Vatican. So how do you make these verses fit Babylon? And really, is Islam a prime manufacturer of automobiles? Or did they move Babylon to Detroit, also on 7 hills?
    I think the problem many people have with the Book of Revelation is that they don’t believe any of it has happened yet. They came up with a theory but so far nothing matches up so they figure it is all going to happen in the near future, and that it all refers to future kingdoms. I suppose this makes it much easier since you can claim virtually anything is going to happen – there is no way to disprove a future event. So millions believe in a massive rapture and that a single man will rise to rule the entire planet. Even Alexander the great couldn’t finish that job. I find it incredible how gullible some people are to think that certain scenarios are actually going to happen, and all in the course of just a few years. But the “Left Behind” scenario is just as ridiculous as the appearance of Nibiru and just as unlikely to ever happen.
    No wonder the bible says the whole world will be fooled. They already are and will continue to be, probably all thru the tribulation.
    – More fulfilled prophecy nobody is noticing…

    • jim

      ancient babylon is alive and well….it jut goes by different names now, like Iraq, Iran, syria, jordan, turkey, etc.

      the bible says mystery babylon is a city. REV 17:18

      look at the list again….it neither describes the trading commerce of Rome nor Detroit.

      the woman (city) sits on 7 mountains, which are not necessarily 7 hills, but 7 kingdoms REV 17:9.

      that is why there are 7 kings REV 17: 10…..and five had already fallen at the time John wrote revelation…

      she sits on many waters, peoples, multitudes nations and tongues…..REv 17:15 I can see the vatican a little here, but Mecca also fits this as the center of Islam.

      she is associated with the beast, who had already been in existence at the time of revelation ( vatican not there yet) REv 17:11

  338. It’s not the trading commerce of ROME, but the trading commerce of the Catholic Church, which is totally different – you have to look trading throughout their history, not just currently. Also, how does Islam fit with the “clothed in purple & scarlet and having a golden cup full of abominations” part? Daniel’s prophecy speaks of the Roman Empire, which is then broken up into East & West – like Jim says, the HOLY Roman Empire. I think Rev chap 17 speaks of a religion, while chap 18 speaks of a city. I basically agree with Jim, but not being an Adventist, I believe that the Catholic Church is the W.o.B., but not the actual A.C. – I believe that the scriptures are very clear that it WILL be a man – the “Man of Sin” , with a mouth speaking great things. I believe that probably a pope will be the F.P. I think some of the events HAVE happened already, but some are yet to come. “The Rapture”? I’m not sure either way – I think there are solid scriptural arguments for both sides of that question. As far as a single man being the A.C., I mean, if Hitler isn’t enough proof that one man can arise quickly….and with the current push for a NWO, the equation is changed….things DO happen very quickly in today’s world, and if a charismatic man that people were already starting to be impressed by and follow were to be assassinated, suddenly return to life, and begin working deceptive miracles, then yes, I do believe he could rise to power over the whole world – what about people like Kissinger saying that “O.” is the person to lead us into the NWO? Not saying it’s necessarily “O.”, but don’t statements like that, by one of the major antichrists of our time, tend to lend themselves to the theory that it will be one man that they will follow? What about the infamous Paul-Henri Spaak statement? “We do not want another committee, we have too many already. What we want is a man of sufficient stature to hold the allegiance of all the people and to lift us up out of the economic morass into which we are sinking. Send us such a man, and whether he be God or devil, we will receive him.” Microchips, what about them? Don’t you think their existence must have significance in a system where no one can buy or sell? I always found the S.D.A. teaching of the “Sunday Worship Law” being the M.o.t.B. to be extremely far-fetched, although I do sort of agree with their general scenario about the Catholic Church. I can swallow the thing about the R.C.C. “changing times & laws” and making Sunday the Sabbath, but as far as that being the M.o.t.B., nah….I mean, the chip technology is already here and being employed already as well! I do think prophecies often have double and even triple meanings, so I think it’s possible that the verses can be simultaneously speaking of 1260 years historically, and 1260 days in the future, for instance….

    • joe

      I have to admit that I go back and forth on this topic. there are other posts that support rome as the woman, and then other posts that conclude something else.

      to me right now, each option has strong points, and then weak points.

      Ancient babylon used to trade in purple, and gold was abundant, so I can see the arab countries fulfilling this requirement. I can also see the catholic clergy in their robes doing it also….others think Mystery babylon is the USA, although it fits well, I do not see the purple fitting in.

      Islam seeks to change all law to sharia….just something to think about.

      bozo is trying very hard to be the AC..so we will see if he succeeds, or not.

    • If Hitler couldn’t succeed, then no one will. Especially with a Muslim army. As for a man being assassinated and resurrected, you are referring to the 70th week of Daniel which is speaking of Christ and not some future antichrist. No man can be resurrected until Christ returns to do so. It is the False Prophet (the pope) who will perform miracles which will bring much of the world into the Roman Catholic Church. Then the “whole world will marvel at the (Vatican) beast. Since the Roman Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon and is the apostate church tainted by the Mystery Babylon religion it makes sense that this is the church that God must destroy before His son returns to rule it. Why would God destroy Islam and then become head of a massive Christian church that refuses to worship on the true Sabbath? Will Jesus allow this to happen when He returns? Or will He fix it before returning? Common sense tells us that the churches (both the whore and its daughters) will have to be stripped of all pagan practices from the Mystery Babylon and Roman religions before the marriage to the lamb can take place. You don’t need the bible or the Book of Revelation to tell you that.
      So looking at the Book of Revelation knowing all this beforehand will make it much clearer and easier to understand. Try putting yourself in the place of God and ask yourself, “What would Jesus do?” Then try to explain why he would be more concerned with destroying one of many false religions but not bother to fix His own?
      Really… try to explain it to me.

  339. Jim, I wasn’t referring to the verse in Daniel, I know that refers to Jesus. I was referring to Revelation, “the beast that had the deadly head wound and lived”. I know the S.D.A. Church interprets this as the Catholic Church being wounded and reviving, and I don’t necessarily reject that, but I also see no reason why it couldn’t be one of those “double meanings” and also refer to a literal man. I think Hitler couldn’t do it because it wasn’t yet the “appointed time”, and certain necessary conditions didn’t yet exist, such as Israel being a nation again, microchips, nukes (for some of the visions to be literally fulfilled, like Zechariah seeing people who fight against Jerusalem having their flesh consume away while they still stand on their feet, and the tongue & eyes, and the mountain of fire falling into the waters and sky folding up like a scroll, etc, in Revelation). But my point was that Hitler definitely illustrated that even relatively modern people will be mass-hypnotized by a charismatic, antichrist leader and follow him to destruction, and the demonic spirit of hate that washed over Europe like a wave shows the potential for something like this to happen on a global scale, in our age of technology & instant communication.

    Marianne, I pretty much feel the same way, sometimes it seems like it could be the USA, and I see your points about Islam. I think in the end I’d have to go with Rome though, the way the Popes all speak of the necessity of a NWO and are in the absolute forefront of the ecumenical movement, drawing all the apostate churches back to the “Holy Mother”. Benedict, in his encyclical “Caritas in Veritate”, calls for the U.N. to have “real teeth” to “manage the global economy with God-centered ethics” – I must say, that is pretty blatantly antichrist….if anyone should know better, you’d think it would be a scholar like him. It’s such a farce to imagine that the UN would manage ANYTHING with “God-centered ethics”, when they’re not “God-centered” people! (unless he means the god of this world…) John Paul II did pretty much the same thing when he spoke to the U.N. – it’s like they’re saying “go ahead, continue setting up your antichrist NWO with my papal blessing, but do it in the name of Christ and in a “Christian way”.

    • joe

      I see the points about the catholic church also, but it does not seem do-able to me.

      centuries ago, I could see it…when most of the christian world was catholic, including governments.

      now it is a dead chuch, with too many members fallen away or changed to protestant.

      http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1203473.htm

      http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/sc1.html

      http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/statistically-speaking-vatican-numbers-hint-fading-faith-practice

      http://www.dici.org/en/news/constant-decline-in-religious-practice-by-catholics-worldwide/

      the countries seem to humor the pope, but go their own way.

      they like to visit him, but do not obey him like they did in the middle ages.

    • Joe,
      The beast is a kingdom, not a person. It had 10 heads (horns) plus a “little horn more stout than its fellows.” The 10 horns were the ten regions of the Holy Roman Empire just after it was formed, before three of them were “pulled out by the roots” by the Vatican, which was the little horn. If the beast was a man, then all 10+ heads would have to die with him. How can one horn of a man die? What does that even mean? But the little horn did die, or it seemed dead after the enf of the Holy Roman Empire. But it was restored to nation (kingdom) status by Mussolini in 1929.
      And nowhere in the bible does it say that there will be a New World Order. Or a One-World Government. Nor does it say a resurrected man will lead it. It only says that the world (meaning all God’s peoples) will marvel after the beast (Vatican), which it will when the pope begins performing miracles. And many protestant churches are returning to the Vatican, but remember the whore has daughters so 99% of the Christian churches are apostate and their policies (such as Sunday worship) will have to be destroyed before the marriage can take place. We all know this is true and the Book of Revelation is simply confirming it. Neither the UN or the Catholic church or any man is going to lead a New World Order. There isn’t going to be one. You can‘t unite the world at this point. The us and Israel will never join hands with ISIS and Iran no matter how charismatic a leader there is. Try to add China and India and Europe to that list and you can see it is a ludicrous idea. Hitler succeeded because he created common enemies worth uniting against. To unite the whole world we would need an extraterrestrial enemy to make that work. That too will never happen.
      Common sense should tell you what WON‘T happen. Then you must look to everything else to find the truth.

  340. Then why, Jim, has the media, and even the Vatican been conditioning and preparing us so much for the coming of aliens? And why have the elite of the world all been working relentlessly toward this NWO, if it’s never going to happen? Gee, Henry Kissinger, Bill Clinton, Gorbachev, George H. Bush, “Dubya”, Jimmy Carter, Al Gore, Obama, the Rockefellers, Rothschilds, George Soros and many, many, many more of the “elite” are sure wasting a lot of time promoting and incessantly working toward this “non-existent” NWO! I guess none of them have any common sense. (actually, they don’t, but the world sure thinks they’re wise…)

    And it won’t be a SUCCESSFUL world government, just an attempt at it. Ezekiel 38 says that Gog & all his allies will come from the uttermost north – for centuries Rabbis have been saying that it refers to Russia, obviously this is 1 of the double meanings I was referring to – the Book of Rev still wasn’t written for hundreds of years when Ezekiel prophesied, and there are many differences between Ezekiel’s G & MG and John’s G & MG. Hence, Double prophecy, IMO. So WW III, or the “Russian & Arab Invasion” of Israel will be the 1st crack in their NWO, and it sounds like it includes a massive nuclear exchange. Then, at Armageddon, the Chinese & probably other Asians will come to the Mid-East for the great war. So you’re right, the NWO ultimately will not succeed – they’ll give it a really good try, but it’ll fall apart. I don’t see how you can say there’s no human beast, because it talks about how he will react when he hears tidings of nations that are moving against him, and many other things that he’ll do that only a man can do. How can a kingdom be thrown into the Lake of Fire? It’s Satan and 2 men – the A.C. & the F.P.

    Most of the world will be scared into trying the world govt, probably a huge crisis such as exactly what you said – an alien invasion, which would really be demons – look at the messages that are supposedly coming from “aliens” thru channellers, such as J.Z. Knight – obviously demonic, antichrist messages designed to prepare the world for an alien visitation. Or a limited nuclear exchange could scare the world into going for it – possibly the “aliens” will be “friendly”, and show up to help us “find our way” before we entirely self-destruct. In any case, a huge crisis – Rahm Emanuel said “never waste a good crisis…”

    As I said – you may be saying I’m wrong, but I’m not necessarily saying you are….I’m saying maybe it’s a DOUBLE MEANING – as Marianne posted, the Catholic Church is waning in a lot of ways, how will they suddenly take over the world, as in your SDA interpretation?

    But Marianne, this brings me to my other point – it won’t be just the Catholics, it’ll be all the (false) religions with the Vatican at the head of the whole mess – so they don’t have to be as popular as they were. As Jim says, all the Whore’s daughters will be in it too – I believe they’ll all be joined by desperation in a very precarious union that will quickly fall apart in the course of the trib period.

    That’s all I have time for now…

  341. im more intarested in who u people ar that ar having this conversation.iv been exsperiancing odd things all Xmas month i see thise numbers apearing in everyday life that lead me to all sorts of shit from ainchent history to alien shit.3.5.7.9.13 someone plz exsplain this to me couse u lot seam to know about this as well.3 crowns the order of the bath. 5 fallen kings.5 colors.5 armies.7hills of rome.7 kings of rome 7 chakras.7 forms of goverment.9 i havent figured out yet.13 13 positions of equanox.13 starsigns.13 gods of mount olympia.13 legions in the roman army.and oddly enough in all the current forein legions of the world. the same numbers apear in most great fantasy stories as well the ones that ar telling the same story as mythology dose.but in there own “way” i find the symbology on coins as well.crowns numbers…..iv seen the symbology at a psykiatrik hospital as well.so my question is is the a higher state of counsiousness or is it madness…iv allso found stuff relation to a people calld the dacians that lived just north of constantinoble.they worshiped wolves, i got a drawing a friend of mine did of me.where she drew a wolf. my other friend was channeling my x girlfriends last time i hung out with her.and she referd to her self as being a witch.what the hell is going in here? i know im not imagening things that all the odd supernatural shit thats been happening to me all month has gotta be real and not just me having a psykitic epesode.dose any of this make any sens to you people?…

    • dear rica

      the numbers are not as important as the message that comes with them.

      but 7 is the number of perfection, and 3 is the number of god.

      the others have a lesser meaning….

      I suggest you avoid witches and those that deal with the occult…..

      they will bring a curse on your life.

      read the bible, first the book of john, and then the other books in the new testament……once you read the book of revelation, which is the last book of the bible, go back and read the book of daniel.

      this will explain life in general, and the world events which are about to happen.

      once you see the truth, and accept Jesus as savior and son of god…..your eternal destiny will be assured.

  342. You fail to recognize many things. Just one is the facts that the waters are peopl, not literal water. The Scriptures tell us what the water is expressly. Reread Rev 17

  343. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

    • MARK,
      I’m SURE WE AlL UNDERTAND WHAT THE WATERS REFER TO. AS YOU SHOWED, THE DEFINITION APPEARS shortly after the initial verse.
      So what sort of revelation do you have that we all seem to have missed?

  344. In Truth, you can not identify what the SEVEN hills are, unless you are able to identify what the “WHORE OF BABYLON” is doing. What is her function in End-Times? She is not just another religion, but an economic powerhouse. if Islam can produce economic control of over the ‘waters”,, peoples, nations etc.. Then perhaps they can be identified as the Mother of Harlots and abominations.

    • the whore is a religion, but more than that…it has its own political, economic and social system…Islam has that.

      but so, then does some other candidates.

  345. The choice between the Vatican and Islam is made clear with a little simple logic.
    The Vatican is a true modern kingdom with a seat at the U.N. Islam is not.
    The description of the beast uses scarlet and purple vestments and a golden cup… something you see at every catholic mass but never in Islam.
    The Vatican is far wealthier than all Islamic mosques combined even with ISIS.
    When John wrote the words, only Rome was the city of 7 hills. He had no knowledge of any other modern cities that also claim to be Rome-like that claim they too are on 7 hills.
    The woman rides the beast which followed the disintegration of the previous beast – Rome. History shows that this was the Holy Roman Empire, not Islam and the Christian two horned like a lamb beast that came from the Holy Roman Empire with all of its authority (religious authority) was the Vatican, not Islam.
    The first beast from which the woman emanates was to last for 1260 prophetic years, the duration of the Holy Roman Empire, not Islam.
    And finally, the Book of Revelation starts off with Jesus rebuking most of the Christian churches of John’s time, thus setting the tone for the entire book. It is all about how the true church had become a remnant of the apostolic churches in 95 AD and that this trend would continue for almost 2000 more years. Nowhere does Jesus rant against a foreign religion coming in to replace Christianity. At the conclusion of Revelation Jesus marries the true church – the woman in white who Satan hated and tried to destroy and who is but a remnant of His people. The rest – the false church are symbolically destroyed. This doesn’t necessarily mean that all the people will be killed, just the structure and policies of the apostate churches (the whore and her harlot daughters) will be struck from the books and never taught again.
    The rest of the worlds false religions will be dealt with during the millennium by the resurrected saints who become priests and teachers of the word of the true God. After all, if God destroys Islam He would also need to destroy Buddhism and Hinduism and every other false religion on earth at the same time. That is simple logic.
    Those who wish to show that the woman is Islam must defy all logic not to mention leave out many bible verses which they simply can’t fit into their explanation. And this explanation has the further benefit of being proven by history whereas Islam requires almost everything to happen in the future where time is running out, especially for the 1260 year thing.
    Too many Christians tend to think with their hearts instead of their brains. They like a certain interpretation, perhaps because they hate terrorism and would like to see it destroyed by God Himself. Some can’t imagine that Christianity could be at fault for anything – many believe we will all be magically raptured at any time. But if you study the bible analytically and attack it like a math problem or an engineering task without any preconceived agendas you will discover the truth long before it has to fall on your head at the last minute.
    Bless

    • the vatican does NOT have an official voting seat at the UN.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See_and_the_United_Nations

      The Holy See is not a member of the United Nations (not having applied for membership) but was granted permanent observer state (i.e., non-member state) status on 6 April 1964.

      the logic for the woman to be Islam is very logical, and point by point, could fit the description, and has been described, point by point on this site.

      Islam has more than one seat at the UN. It dominates the UN, and much more influence than “the vatican.” For every Muslim country, there is a seat at the UN….

      In addition:

      Muslim United Nations was established in 1980 as organisation and its charter has been written by its founding chairman Ehsan Sehgal and was sent to all Muslim States.[1][3] The main purpose of the Mulim United Nations is to unite the Muslim states and establish Muslim Arm Forces, Muslim National Bank and Muslim National Court of Justice.

      The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is an international organisation founded in 1969 consisting of 57 member states.
      The OIC has permanent delegations to the United Nations and the European Union. The official languages of the OIC are Arabic, English and French.

      Islamism Grows Stronger at the United Nations
      http://www.meforum.org/477/islamism-grows-stronger-at-the-united-nations

      As far as “‘purple” goes, it is only worn at lent, while the reference deals with TRADE….purple is an ancient export of arabic countries.


      also I have brought this up before…..the beast HATES the woman…so even if the woman is the catholic church, the beast she rides is Islamic, because in the end, Islam will destroy the vatican.

  346. You are acting like the Muslim nations are one united kingdom but they are not. In fact many are fighting each other. With that logic you could combine all the Christian nations together and call them a kingdom also, and they would be far more powerful than all those Muslim nations.
    And purple, really? So since Muslim countries once exported purple dye to Europe for the Vatican to actually use, that fulfils the prophecy? Where in the church (woman) of Islam do you see a sea of purple gathering for a mass? And what about the golden cup?
    In order to make Islam fit you are forced to ignore 80% or more of the verses and come up with silly little explanations for the rest.
    How do you explain the two horns of the lamb? How does that relate to Islam? They certainly don’t appear Christlike.
    You admit that history has already confirmed the verses,Yet you won’t believe it. You wait for the prophecy to somehow repeat itself in the Muslim world.
    As for the beast hating the woman, or the European Union hating the Roman Catholic Church, it will happen after the restored Holy Roman Empire collapses. In the last year of Revelation, the day of the lord, every Christian who was following the Vatican beast will have the 7 last plagues. The 2 witnesses will have been preaching Sabbath keeping for 3 years by then and everyone will notice that only Sunday-keepers have avoided the plagues. At this point, very near the Second Coming, they will finally understand the mark of the beast and they will turn on the Vatican and the church. Just as St. Malachy predicted, Rome will burn. As will, more than likely, most catholic churches around the world.
    Right now the beast and woman are one. The split won’t come until just before the end. Check the context of the verse – it is one of the last things to happen before Christ returns.
    The truth is staring at everyone who reads the Book of Revelation. Every (beast) verse fits history except for a few future events. The rest is on track to happen soon. But some Muslim antichrist taking over the world and chipping the planet and claiming he is God? That truly flies in the face of logic. Such an event simply can not happen in today’s world. Unless yo think ISIS is about to conquer the world? If not them, then who? Iran with a couple of untested nukes? Oh wait, Obama will refuse to leave office, then declare Sharia law, then conquer the rest of the world and claim that he is God. Oh yeah, and GAY! A gay Muslim God! Yeah, that will fly. Just what the Muslims are waiting for.
    Sorry, but this is all a SciFy pipe dream based on a popular book and movie. It will soon pass just as Y2K and the Mayan calendar. I’ll believe it when I see it,
    but I ain’t seeing it.

    • the muslim nations are UNITED against ISrael..that is all that counts.

      arabs were making purple LONG before – thousands of years before – the vatican came into existence.’

      the golden cup has always referred to the babylonian empire in scripture….today this is all islamic territory

      history confirms that the arabs ( assyrians/ babylonians, chaldeans, etc) fit the description….the book of daniel describes each beast as arab or greek….not european or catholic

      horns of lamb…..islam is the religion of peace? it speaks of peace but kills

      Islam hates the vatican…

      the european union does not care about the pope…he is just an old man to them

      you said:
      The 2 witnesses will have been preaching Sabbath keeping for 3 years by then and everyone will notice that only Sunday-keepers have avoided the plagues.

      are you serious?????

      the bible does not say that!!!!!

      you said:
      Right now the beast and woman are one.

      the bible does not say that either!!!

      so “i aint’ seeing you as correct.”

      although I make room for your viewpoint…you do not have me convinced

  347. Islam wears black, never purple, nor scarlet which you failed to mention since that is available everywhere. It is the church who uses these colors that matters, not who sells the dyes, or even the cloth.
    Daniel describes the Roman beast which is European and the Babylonians and the Medes were not Arabs and certainly not Muslim. Islam didn’t exist in biblical times. The only way to reference them is to say the people who live in those lands today are primarily Islamic. But that is not logical. Nowhere in the bible does it say to use that type of logic.
    The two horns refer to Jesus, not one of His traits or teachings. And it has all the authority of the first beast. You don’t even know who the first beast will be yet, let alone a second one that will come out of it.
    European Christians will soon turn to the pope in response to the Muslim threat, especially once he begins performing miracles. This is certainly easier to believe than Obama taking over the world. Remember, most of the world hates Obama and America. We would have to use force and we couldn’t even beat al-qaeda and aren’t having much effect on ISIS either.
    And I DO know what the 2 witnesses will be preaching… the ten commandments. They will warn the people about the mark of the beast, and they won’t be saying, “don’t take the chip!”
    The woman rides the beast (at first), so they are together, right? Or do you think the woman is on the beast in an attempt to kill it? And if the beast is this Islamic UN you spoke of, then shouldn‘t Muslims hate Islam right now? If it doesn’t work for me then it doesn’t work for you either.
    Anyway, the bible doesn’t actually say anything about Islam, only the ancient lands that Muslims now live on, so there isn’t much to stand on from that standpoint.
    And fortunately I don’t have to convince you I’m right, only pound it into your brain so you may recognise it when it comes.
    Time will prove me correct, I need only wait.

    • jim

      all daniel said was that the TEETH were made of iron…that dos not make it europe….

      revelation further describes the beast, as part leopard , part lion, part bear….which are references to the ancient kingdoms of greece, babylon and persia….most of which is islamic today. this tells you where the beast is from.

      you changed what you said…at first you only said they were preaching against sunday worship..now you say 10 commandments….make up your mind

      the woman will not try to kill the beast…but the beast will kill her….

      and I said the woman may be the vatican/catholic, but the beast is islam…I did not say the woman was islam….although it could be to some extent…after all the pope thinks islam is ok

      • Marianne,
        Daniel described the statue with legs of iron – that was Rome. The beast had iron teeth because that is the body part that chews up and destroys its enemies, as Rome did to Greece. You must follow history here.
        The Revelation beast is partly every beast that preceded it – a religious pagan mixture of religions going back to Babylon. You think God is concerned about those ancient governments? Or the land they sat on? Or even sillier, the people who live there now? NO. He is only concerned with how Christianity would become corrupt – from all the ancient religions merging with Christianity in the time of Constantine the Great. Again, its history.
        Give me a break, if the witnesses will preach the 10 commandments won’t they by default be teaching the 4th? Or don’t you think that one is in there anymore? (And many people do not).
        The Roman Catholic Church (woman) will not try to kill the (Vatican) beast, they are together, but the 7th king (a beast) the European Union WILL kill the woman and destroy the Vatican beast. You have to remember there are 8 beasts altogether between Daniel and Revelation. You must know one from the other or you will always be confused. You say the beast is Islam, but there are 4 in Revelation. You need to define all four before you can make any sense out of it.
        Go ahead, try….

        • jim

          you are stuck in daniel chapter 2

          the feet are not the legs

          and THIS iron is mixed with clay……this iron will mingle with seed of man….aren’t the romans man also?

          so there is more going on here

          scripture explains scripture….

          go to daniel 7

          beast 1 = lion = babylonia

          beast 2 = bear = medo- persians

          beast 3 = leopard = greeks

          beast 4 = mixed with only the teeth made of iron……

          so now, you see the symbolism is explained of lion, bear, leopard, etc

          now go to revelation 13

          LAST beast = mix of leopard, bear, lion

          so the last beast, according to daniel symbolism is a mix of babylonian, medo-persia, and greek

          and the main body is greek, with feet of bear, and mouth of lion

          if you look at ancient greecian empire, you will see this:

          it is mostly islamic countries today.

          part of europe is in the map, but very little of it

          you can see that one empire meshed into another larger one……

          Daniel predicted that ancient enemies of ISrael would still be there in the end times, but bigger and more organized

          • Marianne,
            You fail to follow history. It was Rome who conquered Greece, plain and simple. Daniel’s 4th beast was the Roman empire – there is no gap in the prophecy. The statue went past the 4ht Roman empire, it shows it morphing into the Holy Roman Empire, which history shows following the Roman empire, thus the iron mixed with clay – partly Rome, partly Europe, partly the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican (the little horn).
            The yellow area above is not no nor will it be a genuine kingdom like the European Union. It does not fit any prophecy. It is not the 4th beast of Daniel nor is it the first or second beast of Revelation. You now have 5 different kingdoms to describe for me. Daniel’s fourth and the four from Revelation. I have clearly described every one of them in the order they appeared (with one left to come), but all you can say is that they are Muslim.
            And consider this, the Holy Roman Empire followed the Roman empire in 538 AD – that was the first beast of Revelation. But in 538 Mohammed wasn’t even born, so that beast can not be Muslim. Plus all the toes of the statue are European countries – ten, reduced to seven by the Vatican.
            You continually say that since Babylon and Medo-Persia are now Muslim, the beast must also be so. But that prophecy is long over. Daniel prophesied that Greece would defeat Medo-Persia and it happened. But that prophecy is over and done.
            You simply can’t say the bible is speaking of the modern religion of these regions because someone new moved into the lands.
            To use your word (plus mine):
            LAST beast = mix of leopard, bear, lion
            so the last beast, according to daniel symbolism is a mix of babylonian, medo-persia, and greek [RELIGIONS]. It is referring to the Mystery Babylon religion of Revelation. The source of the apostate church – the woman that rides the beast.
            And consider this, – the beast is scarlet. Why scarlet? Just ask any educated person on earth what religion wears scarlet robes and you will get the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church. The cardinals gather in a sea of scarlet to make church policy and to elect a pope. Show me this in Islam. And don’t claim they sell the Vatican the dye.
            It is obvious that you have a concept and wish to place the blame on bad religion on the Muslims so you see God destroying Islam rather than Christianity, which would be nice, but not biblical. God punishes His own people, not everyone else.
            But the problem is that you can’t match history with your idea and you can’t come up with the 5 (Islamic) beasts that you claim have or will come. And you can’t explain how one of these kingdoms will / did last 1260 years as specified in both Daniel and Revelation. All you have is the phrase I quoted from you above, and corrected. You built a huge concept based on this incorrect interpretation but there are no other verses you can use to prove your point. You must remove 90% of the beast verses because they simply don’t fit. The time lines, the horns and crowns, the powerful little horn that blasphemes. The second beast (of Revelation) that comes out of the first, which follows the 4 of Daniel. You have just a mishmash of claims with no history or bible verses to back them up.
            If you want us to believe you you’ll need to explain everything in a plain, logical manner.
            Throwing up a map of the lands of ancient, fulfilled prophecy does not prove a thing.

            • the ancient empires were mentioned for a reason, and it was after they were “gone” in revelation..

              otherwise , john would have just written “rome”

              • John was describing the future – the Holy Roman Empire. He mentioned the beasts of Daniel for a good reason – so that the reader would know that his beast(s) were a direct continuation of the beasts of Daniel. The church of the Holy Roman Empire was a mixture of the religions of the first four kingdoms, especially Babylon. The physical location of the new beasts were not the same as the older kingdoms because God’s people had moved – they were now the Christians of Europe not the Muslims of the middle east.
                The Book of Revelation is all about God’s church, not Satan’s. The first three chapters set the tone and the topic for the rest of the book… Jesus was not pleased with what had happened to His church even back in John’s time, let alone after the universal Roman church was created by Constantine. It is all about the true church versus the false church, not other religions.
                Tell me something, if the beast is Islam, will God kill every Muslim on earth, or just wipe out the religion itself? And if He kills all Muslims won’t He have to kill all the Hindus and Buddhists as well?
                Just what do you think Jesus will do when He takes His earthly throne?
                Inquiring minds want to know…

                • why didn’t god just make the 4th beast all iron, to represent rome? it would be easier

                  yes god will kill all the muslims and any others who attack israel…

                  the rest of the unbelievers have to accept christ or go to hell….

                  god is not going to allow 3 billion muslims to run over the earth while jesus is on the throne.

                  they will all be killed in the ezechiel 38 war and the gog / magog war.

                  • God did make the legs of the statue (Rome) all iron, so there. But the beast had to represent some sort of animal like the other three and they didn’t have the concept of robots back then so the beast was made to look like a living creature with ten heads etc, and only the teeth needed to be iron like the statue since animals eat and destroy with their teeth. But a living beast made of all iron? John would never have imagined such a thing might exist. He never had the advantage of reading comic books like you and I.
                    So will God kill all the Muslims in nations like the U.S. who are not attacking Israel? I’m not talking about the Ezekiel war here, it is different from Armageddon and the wars of Daniel. The destruction of Babylon in Revelation is not the war of Gog. The beast that seems Christlike but speaks like the dragon does not attack Israel. They are an apostate church that God destroys before the wedding to Jesus. Jesus is not marrying Islam so there is no need to destroy it. But He won’t marry a church that breaks God’s laws on a regular basis intentionally. You miss the whole point of the Book of Revelation.
                    The war of Gog happens after Christ has returned – just read the previous chapters of Ezekiel. If He kills all the Muslims before He returns than there will be none left to fight the war of Gog. Again simple logic shows that you can’t possibly be correct.

                    • a. poor answer

                      b. yes, if god is willing to kill all unbelieving people in the USA, that will include the muslims, who are also actively sending money to ISIS and HAMAs

                      c. you have no simple logic

        • maybe this is the iron part that is mixed with clay 🙂

          trans humans or bionic people

          • Hey, I could really use one of these things to replace my wheelchair. Then I could go anywhere and get back into geology treks.
            So then I will become one of the ten toes. I will have to move to a kingdom of robots though, but maybe California will become one of those toes.
            Or maybe I’ll just take one of Obama’s free unicorns and saddle that puppy up and go. 🙂

  348. The beast appears to have global power. The women rides the beast. This is goddess worship. It is a false church of some kind, but it is global too.

    All religions can find common ground by ignoring the true truth except Jewish and Christians that follow Christ’s teachings.

    There are ten regions now the central banks have listed for the world. Also, know as the WTO. Three may fall and create one. The individual who leads the one out of three may become the Anti-Christ.

    G-d has told us there will be a global government controlled by mankind for a short time. Just like the Tower of Babel, but global. Jesus will destroy it and rule the world he holds the deed to that Adam lost.

    Peace.

    • Leatherneck
      The beast is a kingdom and the woman is a church associated with it. It does not represent goddess worship although since the church is the Roman Catholic Church there is a lot of Mary worship which is pagan in origin. While the church is global, as are many, it is not a One world Currency nor a One-World Government. There won’t be a One-World banking system nor a chip to run it so the WTO can do what it wants, its not part of the prophecy. And why would a banker or leader of the WTO become world ruler and then claim he is God? Who would believe and worship him? That is just stupid. Even a “B” movie wouldn’t use such a plot. Oh wait, the Left Behind movie kinda did that…
      Jesus will not destroy any governments, He will replace them. He WILL destroy the Babylonian paganism of His own church which has been ruined by Satan over the last 2000 years. He will destroy the woman that rides the beast along with the beast itself, which are actually one (the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church).

      • Relax Jim.

        I did not write a banker would be ruler. The Central Banks do rule behind the Throne

        G-d said they will have their world government for one hour. The Beast is a global kingdom. The little horn that uproots three kings within this system is the anti-christ. A chip? I don’t know what humans will get that swear an oath to the beast to buy and sell.

        The Catholic Church is one of many parts of the women that rides the beast. I think. You can add all other religions that believe works can get you into heaven.

        I’m not stupid Jim, just crazy. So, change that please.

        Peace old timer.

        • Hey, smart people can come up with some really stupid ideas. Astronomer Sir William Herschel once believed that people lived inside the sun. Go figure.
          The woman is the Roman Catholic Church, no others. Jesus is not going to marry Islam, nor Buddhism nor Hinduism. He will not directly destroy other religions. That will be the job of the saints who are resurrected into the millennium kingdom – to teach the gospel to the whole world and convert the masses or at least give them the choice between eternal life and the lake of fire. God will not simply wipe out billions of good people because they never knew Christ. He will make sure they have a chance to learn and make up their minds for themselves – free will. This is God’s way.
          As for works getting you into heaven that is wrong on several levels. Even grace will not get you into heaven. No man goes to heaven, the kingdom of the resurrection is here on earth, so any church teaching heaven and hell will also be destroyed. But not the members – they will be re-taught. Just like the pagans.
          But, to be fair, there is mention of the harlot daughters of the great whore church – the Sunday-keeping protestant churches for example. But the woman who sits specifically on 7 hills and who rides the Vatican beast is only the Roman Catholic Church. No Islam or any others.
          In your scenario, none of the beasts of Revelation have arisen yet, not the first one with the little horn that lasts for 1260 years. You think the ten horns are a new banking system? And the beast is a New World Order? Now if the little horn is a person then the other ten horns must also be persons, so who are they? Bankers? They can’t be regions of a banking system if there are people, so who are they? Your concept is so massive and convoluted it is impossible to comprehend based on bible verses anyway. Sure, you describe the “Left Behind” scenario as in the movies but you have no corresponding verses to back them up. You have no history books for proof because you are a futurist, just as the early Catholic church was – a ploy to throw the shame off of them and into some future unknown entity.
          It‘s still working today, as you can attest to.

          • looks like you need to read Revelation 6-16 again.

            there is no one left to preach the gospel to…everyone is death by the end of the wrath of god.

            no man goes to heaven?

            even grace does not get you to heaven?

            I guess Jesus died in vain.

            what drug are you on?

            are you sure you are a christian?

          • Jim,

            The statue that David interpreted are the kingdoms that precede the last kingdom. Correct?

            The ten toes represent that kingdom. At present, we have ten regions controlled by central banks. (He who controls the money…) Region 4 is not fully on line. Region one is three separate countries at present, but a CFR North American Union will cause them to be one region.

            All I am writing is the individual that rules region 1 in the future may be the Anti-Christ.

            You state the Catholic Church is the whore. Non other. I think you are wrong. I think it includes the Orthodox Church and any other religion that states you can go to Heaven if you do good works.

            Only grace can get us into Heaven. Not works. The whore is a false world wide religion. The false prophet makes everyone worship the beast or you can not buy, or sell.

            Christ will destroy this global Tower of Babel soon. Christ will rule from Israel and the nations that do not worship his rightful Lordship over earth will get no rain until they do.

            It is written, all nations will come against Israel. Jesus will save them.

  349. What, no come back? Why?

  350. The woman is Miryam Magdala not the Catholic Church. she is a satanist and sh was last life on earth too.

  351. James,
    There is so much confusion in your comments, no offence intended.
    Herbert W Armstrong is Just the same song with a different beat and a few words changed from the original SDA version. I could trace this rebranding and covering all the way back to the Judaizers of Jesus day. Same song different “artist”.

    Do you also believe in evolution? Old Earth? Cause if you do, you have swallowed the pill, and worship the natural over the supernatural.

    The “Chip” is only a piece of the big picture. The real thing is Satan offering man eternal life via technology, Satan’s version of tree of life.

    Are you sure you are not heading in that direction?

    “blittle”

    • blittle,
      I don’t believe in evolution. As a person with over 100 college units in geology I can tell you there are no fossil records of intermediary species, only evolution within a species – like dog breeds etc. But the earth IS 4,5 billion years old, that is a fact, I have seen it with my own eyes over and over again, so there must have been and old earth age before Adam and Eve. If He wanted us to know that the earth is only 6000 years old he would have had geology prove it to us and not confuse us.
      As for Herbert Armstrong, I believe he was the end time Elijah that Jesus told His disciples would come before He returned. Mr. Armstrong wrote over 100 books on prophecy and had a long-running TV show called “The World Tomorrow” which was all about the coming kingdom on earth. Who else would you recommend to be this prophet? Benny Hinn? Billy Graham? Edgar Cayce? Nostradamus?
      I can see only one candidate and I am familiar with his books, I’ve read over 50 of them and he has been correct on many events he was ridiculed on 60 years ago like a “United States of Europe” led by a unified Germany. That was before WW2 even ended. So I’m going with success, but you can follow someone else, or more likely ignore Jesus’ words and follow nobody.
      I guess you can follow Jack Van Impe, who wrote the screenplay for the Left Behind movie. I follow him and once believed him but with all the videos he has made and sold over the years, he has not yet predicted anything that has actually happened. He too thinks Obama will be the antichrist, and the rapture, New World Order, One-World religion and especially the chip. He longer mentions these things due to the fact he has run them into the ground and yet nothing has happened.
      Anyway, you can put Mr. Armstrong down, but if you read some of his works you would soon change your mind. I did. It took years of research on my part but now I’m convinced. You can do the same or simply sit around waiting for a man to take over the world and put a chip into everyone on earth.
      You and Jack both…

      • Perhaps this is God’s little piece of evidence for young earth.

        It is your scientific duty to explain how a young earth artifact ended up in 300 million year old coal.

        • I’ve seen anomalies like this before but it does not prove the earth is 6000 years old. In fact every artifact was in rocks that were millions of years old, not less than 6000 years. If anything it shows an old earth age long before Adam and Eve, just as I suggested, All you are doing is coming to an illogical conclusion based on the evidence. Aluminum wasn’t refined until a hundred years ago, so unless the object was placed there fraudulently, even a young earth theory can’t explain it. There were no humans who could produce such a thing, so where and when did it come from? Even you can’t answer that question with anything but blind speculation. Maybe there were space aliens who visited earth millions of years ago, who knows. That is as good an explanation as any.
          But you can’t take a few dozen (or even a thousand) anomalies and use that to overturn the entire geologic history of the earth and the universe. I have studied both astronomy a and geology most of my life and have visited thousands of places to study the rock layers and history and believe me, there is no way in hell to explain what I’ve seen in a 6000 year-old universe.
          If the universe were only 6000 years old then he farthest objects we could see in a telescope would be 6000 light years away. Yet we can go outside tonight and see a nearby galaxy (Andromeda- M31) which is 2 million light years away. And that is our closest neighbor!
          So if you are right then everything we see, on earth and in the sky, is FAKE! Nothing is as it appears… God is fooling us all. Maybe we are just a hologram in God’s mind and we don’t really exist nor do we have any free will. Our minds are useless and all science and technology should be abandoned because nothing is real.
          Sorry, but the fact is that the earth is 4.5 billion years old. Science has proven that, anomalies aside. So all that is left is to explain the few anomalies, not to try to figure out how to undo everything else we already know.
          The truth is that the proof of an old earth is enough to crush any and all young earth “proofs” like a bug.
          Sorry, but my dad is bigger than your dad and he will beat the crap out of him in a fair fight.
          So there. 🙂

          • looking at both sides, it is possible that the earth itself is very old, but went through a renovation or remodeling process right before the creation of man.

            genesis 1, verses one and two….

            in the beginning god created heavens and earth……we know here that everything god does is good and perfect…. an civilizations here at the time are not mentioned, as this bible relates to human history only

            then

            the earth “was” without form and void….. the hebrew word here is actually translated “became….

            so the earth may have started out perfect , and then became different, and had to be redone.

            why would that be?

            Possibly the fall of satan from heaven may have cause destruction of the earth, as he got sent here….there may have been other civilizations ( aliens) that inhabited here along with satan and his minions….I would not expect an unhappy satan to take good care of where he was sent as punishment……so I can imagine him destroying everything in his path in anger…..

            so god put the brakes on him, and limits, and then renovated the earth…

            not saying this is true…

            but it would explain and old earth..which satan destroyed, and then a new earth that replaced it

            • Very likely the “beginning” refers to the “Big Bang.” Time is not linear to God, it means nothing to move thru it. But to biblical man this would be incomprehensible, so the complexities of the creation of the universe could never be revealed in a single bible verse. After all it took man 6000 years (from the time of Adam) to grasp it, so you must pardon God if He chose to gloss over the details.
              But the who, where, when and why of the rest are not really important. Man is always curious to know everything about all things so they think they can solve bible mysteries by closer reading of scriptures but in this case I’m sure we won’t know the truth until the Lord returns, so I am content to wait rather than waste precious time trying to decipher the unknowable.

  352. Marianne / Leatherneck…
    You guys need to discuss this. Leatherneck says the nations in the millennium must worship the “rightful lordship” (I’m guessing Jesus / The Father) or they will get no rain. This includes sending a representative to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles every year.
    But Marianne says that every non-believer will be killed before the Second Coming so there will be no one left but Christians, including I suppose those who worship on Sunday and celebrate other pagan practices and holidays. And of course, Jesus will be cool with all the changes made during His absence, right?
    Sorry M but your idea of the millennium is messed up. God destroys the wicked, not the uninformed. He will give everyone a chance to learn who the true God is. Heck, even Muslims allow the infidels to convert to Islam if they choose. Is our God not even that forgiving?
    Leatherneck, your beast / church concept is far to wide-reaching. You try to make everything global – the New World Order, One-World religion One world Currency and One-World religion etc. But I get it, that is what everyone thinks, but remember that almost everyone is wrong – the whole world follows the beast. This refers only to Gods world – the Christian world. When you try to include everyone the story gets so convoluted it becomes impossible to manage. You must ask the world to do crazy things that will simply never happen. Like Obama taking over the world and claiming he is God. Ask 300 million Americans if they think that might happen and you know how many will say yes?
    12.
    And those folks are crazy! 🙂

    • there may be a few to survive, but most will die.

      the gospel will be spread to the ends of the earth, and anyone who hears it will be responsible for their response to it.

      most reject it and will be destroyed.

      in this age of information, there will be very few on the earth who will NOT hear the gospel

      there will also be those born during the millenium….they will have to be saved just like anyone else.

      When I give a point, I tell you the scriptures.

      but when you give your point, you just give your opinion.

      so show me …..in the bible….where it says “ignorant people” get off the hook and will not be destroyed.

      do you know the bible well enough to do this?

      • You should read the book, “Mystery of the Ages” by Herbert W. Armstrong. He covers the millennium in great detail and this book is filled with scripture. So much that I can’t possibly remember all the verses. I can’t reproduce the book here so here is a link to where you can get a free copy of this book:
        https://www.thetrumpet.com/library
        You will also find literature on Hell, Heaven and tons of other interesting topics. I recommend reading these to anyone who wants to know bible truth.

        • If I am wrong, that is fine with me and I will admit it. But, if the Bible reads everyone to worship the beast, or they can not buy and sell, why do you think it only means the western world?

          Thanks for writing back. Although, I do not always agree with you, I enjoy reading your posts. Except when you write that I am stupid. My grammar and punctuation is correct.

    • Jim, Obama taking over the world and claiming to be God has almost already happened. It is NOT crazy at all contemplate this possibility… You should read Antichrist 2016-2019: Mystery Babylon, Barack Obama & the Islamic Caliphate by David Montaigne.
      By the way I have read Mystery of the Ages that you recommend. I would have read it before you did. Also, in my 20’s, when he was still alive I personally witnessed one of his private meetings with world leaders. But he himself said he would change when proved wrong. So it will be interesting to see how it all pans out. I would not be at all surprised if Obama declares himself to be God, which he already has done, but supposedly in jest.

      http://www.nicetiming.com/2015/02/11/jesus-i-saw-satan-fall-as-barack-obama-in-depth-analysis-by-bible-expert/

      • Sorry, that was confusing – I made a typo, I was talking about the author of the book meeting the world leaders – not Obama.

      • Are you serious? Obama doesn’t even control congress anymore. Even in the U.S. his approval ratings are in the tank. And you think Russia, China, India, North Korea and the rest of the world are going to step down and invite him to take over their governments? And you see all this as practically already happened? You are living on Earth, right?
        NOBODY can lake over the world. Not Napoleon, not Hitler… NOBODY!
        The Beatles once claimed to be God, but turned out they are gone (as a musical powerhouse) and God still lives. Even if Obama did someday claim to be God, NOBODY would believe him. NOBODY! Every “religious” person on earth already has a God and none of them will ever consider worshipping a man instead. Even the Hindus who already have thousands of gods would not add Obama to their list. But especially Christians and Muslims would never worship a man. Would you? Would anyone you know personally think Obama is God? Yet you say the whole world will worship him – everyone including us? Or will Christians be too smart or too loyal to their God to be fooled? So just the dumbass Muslims and Hindus etc? But Christians are over 1/4th of the world, so the word “all” wouldn’t fit then.
        And I don’t believe Jesus was referring to Obama as Satan as claimed in the videos. Satan is not the beast nor is he the False Prophet. And the Book of Revelation makes no mention of an antichrist. If there is one then apparently he goes free after the beast and False Prophet are killed and Satan is put in chains when Jesus returns. The idea that Obama IS Satan is ludicrous, and even in your scenario Obama can’t be both the antichrist and Satan at the same time.
        Besides, if he IS Satan, where‘s his horns and tail?

        • boy you are sure blind as to what is happening in this country.

          bozo does not “control ” congress…..

          he just acts alone and IGNORES congress, and congress lets him do it.

          bozo is just a host for satan….

          he will burn someday for it

  353. I do think it means the whole world, but only the Christian world. Often the bible refers to the “whole world” but is only referring to the area of the planet where God’s people are living. So in this case, since the beast which is followed is the Vatican, I’m not expecting every Hindi, Buddhist and Muslim to become catholic – to me that idea is stupid.
    Tell me logically how can every living person on earth just up and change their religion almost overnight? Hell, most Christians will never give up Sunday worship and certainly not Christmas, so how would they ever turn Muslim and wish to worship Obama as God? Again that to me is a stupid idea. So is eliminating all cash transactions and completely overturning the world banking system and chipping 8 billion people. Nations wouldn’t stand for it, the powerful bankers wouldn’t stand for it and the wall street traders who make billions trading currencies wouldn’t stand for it. They would say, “It is a stupid idea!”
    Yet many Christians believe in these stupid ideas because they are certain that it is the word of God. But present these ideas to any non Christian and they will agree with me that they are indeed stupid.
    As for calling you personally a stupid person, that was not my intent. When it comes to bible prophecy there are many false ones out there and while I believe many of them are illogical I don’t think those believers are stupid, only misinformed.
    Now, when it comes to people who believe in Nibiru or a young earth for example, they are not necessarily stupid, but they are ignorant of the facts. Whether or not they are too stupid to learn the science or simply to lazy to do so I can’t be certain. But they certainly are gullible – willing to believe in lies simply because it suits their purposes. It reminds me of smokers in my dads day who never believed the scientists claim that cigarettes were dangerous and just kept on smoking. My dad and my best friends’ dad both died from smoking. And he is a heavy smoker whose lungs are going bad now, yet he won’t give them up.
    Some people are hooked on the “Left Behind” scenario all because of a single bible verse and how some authors interpreted them to sell books and movies. They cling to the idea and refuse to consider anything else. I was one of these people 40 years ago. But my engineering and science backgrounds cause me to examine these beliefs more closely and I slowly realized I was caught in a lie.
    My dad believed in a lie from the tobacco industry and by the time he realized it, it was too late, for him. Soon it will be too late for Christians. The mark of the beast will creep up on them without them even realizing it. It is so subtle nobody sees it coming, and soon the whole Christian world will follow the ways of the apostate beast. Most already are without even realizing it. That is Satan’s plan. He is quite clever – far more clever than most people believe. He wrecked the churches of the world without anyone knowing. Now they all think they are safe – the tribulation is all about the Muslims. Refuse the chip and we are all saved. Just wait for a New World Order and a One World Dictator and we will nail the antichrist without a doubt. And what will they all say after they receive the plagues and finally realize their mistake?
    “How could we have been so stupid!”

  354. Jim, you don’t seem to have any understanding of the depths of stupidity and evil the world is sinking into. Check out the start of this video… this person introduces Obama as God, and he’s not the only person this stupid.

    Anyhow, we do agree that time will tell.

    • Sorry but the comments of one black comedian do not prove Obama is the antichrist. Show me a follow-up interview where Foxx reiterates that what he meant was that Obama is the one true God of heaven.
      He made a racial and political joke to pander to the crowd and they thought he was funny. Nobody in that audience worships Obama as God. And they never will. Do you realize how desperate it sounds to use this video as proof that the world will soon call Obama their God? Hell, then maybe Justin Bieber is the antichrist since he also has many followers that think of him as a God. And I could come up with hundreds of other people who fit the bill even better than Obama. But you would call me crazy to suggest them. All of them would seem ridiculous except for one – Obama. Gee, I wonder why? Sounds like there is some sort of agenda in place here.
      Well, I can’t wait to see who the next antichrist candidate will be. I’ve seen a dozen or more fall by the wayside over the years. Obama will be no different. He will pass. The blood moons will pass. 2017 will pass. 2019 will pass. I remember when 2000 was the big date. Hell I remember when 1000 was the big date. I’m the word’s oldest cynic!
      So far I’m batting 1000. 🙂

      • all of black america worship bozo as god, and the black muslims have already declared him messiah.

        stop making stupid jokes, and wake up

        you are in deep denial

    • jim is spiritually blind

  355. Jim, my position is not that Obama is going to be the antichrist for sure. I never said that and did not try to prove it. What I am saying is that Obama may fulfill some of these prophecies – and it won’t surprise me in the least if he does. Also, as I said, I am very familiar with Mr Armstrong’s info. (I worked for him for 10 years) so I do take his views into account when considering these things. But I suspect your cup is so full with what you THINK you know, that there is not enough room left for you to learn more.

    • well nice, you have posted several lnks to sites and articles that do try to prove Obama is antichrist so I thought you believed what they were saying.
      And everyone THINKS they know the truth but not everyone can be correct. Marianne says she’s certain Obama will not step down when his term is up. She is so sure her theory is correct she is willing to believe that the impossible is possible. That a man can simply will himself into an American dictatorship and that the people of this country will simply go along with it. That is as crazy as me saying that the sun will come up 20 minutes early tomorrow so I can get an early start on my gardening.
      As for me not recognizing the truth, I used to believe all this “Left Behind” scenario stuff when I first got into prophecy, so I have studied the theory and seen all the movies for many years. But I compared them to what I know now and I soon discovered how foolish I was to begin with. So you need to take a lesson from your own playbook and take a closer look at what you think is the truth. But most people won’t realize they are wrong until it is too late. They will stick with what they believe until the cold light of truth slaps them in the face. Right now Marianne thinks my assessment of Obama’s future is a stupid joke and that for the first time, I’ll be proven wrong. She also thinks Nibiru will soon be here even though she said that several years ago and yet there is no sign of it anywhere except on YouTube.
      So maybe the antichrist and the New World Order will appear on a YouTube video, and news of everyone being chipped will be shown there as well. Then you can think how lucky you are that the thought police haven’t come to your door yet, but you will still cringe in your basement thinking the newspapers and TV have been taken over by the antichrist and everything has been made to seem normal, but you will know in your heart that the tribulation is here so you won’t dare to go out if your house.
      O.K., that WAS a joke, but you get my point. Many people see things that simply aren’t there. Like every black person worshipping Obama as God. If you really believe that then you are truly delusional. Just walk into any black baptist church and see if that is true. You do a great disservice to every faithful black Christian in this country and I would like to see you repeat that in front of congress or even just a town meeting and see how many of your fellow citizens cheer you for saying the truth.
      If this site continues to devolve into a giant YouTube video it will have no credibility at all and will become worthless to fellow Christians. Of course, I am here to see that doesn’t happen and to add the voice of reason to these discussions.
      Although sometimes I wonder why…

      • jim

        I did not tell you that nibiru was definitely coming….

        I said it was possible that something like that could produce the 6th seal.

        I also never predicted a date…so you are lying about that too.

        I also said that bozo will most likely NOT step down from Office….I did not say it was definite.

        lying.

        you like to misquote people then attack them.

        If you keep lying and misquoting people just to perpetuate an argument I will block you

        • whenever you post a YouTube video that “proves” Nibiru is real (and you have posted dozens) and many of them declare a timetable for destruction, then I assume you must believe these videos since you wouldn’t intentionally post a lie, would you?
          And when you say that Obama will MOST LIKELY not step down, then I assume you believe what you say – you believe he will not give up the presidency.
          Most likely Nibiru is real. Most likely Obama is the antichrist and will try to stay in power. When you make such a statement, you are saying you believe these things will actually happen. You believe that these are the things that are about to happen, and you are now waiting for them to occur.
          You can try to use semantics to change the meaning if what you said but in my mind you said what you believe will happen. So own up to it. You are sure the beast is Islamic and that there will be a New World Order and One-World Government with an Islamic leader. Most people on this site believe it also. I know because I butt heads against these people all the time. So if you are 99% sure Obama will be the antichrist or even 60% sure, then just say that is what you think will happen.
          Or perhaps I’m getting thru to you and you have come to realize you are wrong and you’re looking for a way out before it is too late. This will happen eventually no matter what, but maybe you’re trying to get a jump on the problem.
          So if it bothers you (and others) just don’t take it personally. In many cases I am responding to the links and videos you post, so just ignore my rants and put it all on the other guys.
          Gotta go….

          • nibiru may be real, based on the evidence…..i post whatever information is out there.

            you do not have to believe it

            It is also obvious that obama does not want to leave office…he has already tried an order to permit him a 3rd term.

            he has an AC personality….so did hitler….whether he is the global AC I cannot say, since most of the world thinks he is a dangerous idiot

            yes I DO think the beast is Islamic, not some old man in the vatican…but I am sure vatican will be joined with the beast…it has already started its union.

            ***

            and maybe everyone else is right and you are wrong…. 🙂

      • why don’t you try to criticize obama to black people and see what happens.

        http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/

        http://www.westernjournalism.com/michael-eric-dyson-aint-sayin-obama-jesus-followers/#QfTV3qQ37j38ZSwS.97

        jaime fox call obama his lord and savior…

        oprah called him “the ONE”

        his pastor calls obama the messiah

        • Are you trying to prove Obama is the messiah or the antichrist? You claim the antichrist will be Muslim, yet these videos all show Obama as Christian. How do you expect say, China will accept him as their God and leader? And Europe? How about India and Pakistan? You show that many African Americans love him and might want him to stay in office (which will never happen) but you fail to show that every other country on earth feel the same way. 15% of Americans does not a New World Order make. I’m sure the foreigners on this site think you are completely nuts.
          Right Adam?

          • AC will be muslim

            Obama is muslim, not christian…

            the bible does NOT say that all the world will love him.

            the book of daniel indicates AC is at war with many countries..only country that seems to escape is Jordan

            blacks consider obama their messiah,

            AC is a false messiah

            read the bible sometime

            it is better than just forming your comments based on your own opinions

            • The videos above show that Obama is Christian. You showed the minister whose church Obama attended. Lets see a picture of Obama praying in a mosque, anywhere. Or hear him proclaiming he is Muslim. An antichrist can’t be a messiah. Someone who denies Jesus can not claim to be Him.
              How will the antichrist take over the world peaceably unless he is loved? Or do you think the antichrist will take over militarily?
              And finally, there will be no antichrist. Only a beast kingdom and a False Prophet. Where is the term antichrist found in Daniel or Revelation? It isn’t. So you can’t convince me that anyone will be the antichrist. No such thing. No New World Order either. No One world Currency or One-World religion. All of this was extrapolated by misinterpreting one bible verse and a slew of incorrect assumptions, which made for a cool movie, but that’s as far as it goes.
              And you can add the rapture to this nonsense. All those rapture verses are easily proven wrong. They seem right when taken out of context but when you do the finer research you discover the whole thing is wishful thinking.
              And so it is with the rest of the “Left Behind” scenario. Very little of it is true. I find it amusing that so many people believe such a ridiculous scenario. And they are all so absolutely convinced all that nonsense will actually come true. As a logical thinker and a realist I have a hard time believing people can be so gullible, but I guess that is the power of popular opinion.
              It must feel good to be one of the popular kids… poor me 😦

              • the videos do NOT show he is christian….he belonged to a false church that preached islamic liberation theology to blacks….muslims were part of the “church”

                there are quite a few videos where obama admits to fellow muslims that he is one of them….but you are too lazy to view them

                and there ARE pictures of obama praying in a mosque…besides he thinks he is god, so he does not bother with allah much

                I am really sick of some of your arguments… you do NO research on your own, and you just come here and say you do not believe anything.

                an AC is a false messiah….any christian should know that…which makes me still question your theology

                you have a lot of opinions but no scripture to back it up

                • There are only 4 verses using the word antichrist:

                  1 John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

                  1 John 2:22 – Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

                  1 John 4:3 – And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

                  2 John 1:7 – For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

                  These all state that those who deny Jesus is not the son of God or deny the father Himself are Antichrists. And there were many in John’s time and there are many to this day.
                  But you say that antichrist means false messiah – which would be someone claiming to be Jesus or the father. So how can someone who denies Christ or the father also claim to be Him?

                  Well, you wanted scripture so here it is. It sure doesn’t help your case.

  356. Yes Jim, I get you, but Marianne is not all that far off base as you think.

    If a major event – (asteroid impact, super volcano, WW3 or any number of other things) – disrupted our ‘normal’ way of life, Obama and whoever else is pulling strings would be exactly the type of people to squash normal democratic processes and use the major event which turned everything upside down to KEEP things upside down for their own advantage.

    It all depends on the timing. Various signs in the heavens do seem to point to Jesus second coming in only a few years. Maybe as close as 2019/2020, but maybe not.

    Wise men saw heavenly signs for Jesus first coming, it follows therefore that heavenly signs will happen to herald his second coming also. So it is not all that unlikely for some ultra-major disaster to happen soon.

    If something huge happens before 2017 then Obama would NOT leave office voluntarily. He would love to control the world. But so would Prince Charles, the pope and others. So we will just have to wait and see.

    C’mon – you know it makes sense! (By the way, what’s your secret to get the comments to accept italics? – they don’t work for me.)

    • nice

      I did not tell jim that nibiru was definitely coming….I said it was possible that something like that could produce the 6th seal.

      I also never predicted a date…so he is lying about that too.

      I also said that bozo will most likely NOT step down from Office….I did not say it was definite.

      lying.

      he likes to misquote people then attack them.

    • type “

      ….

      before the portion you want italics

      but leave out the “”

  357. You put in “”but you also leave it out?
    I googled it, and it seems html coding should work. So I will try it here.

    • every time i put in

      everything turned italic

      so I put ” ” around it so you could read my comment

      if you put maybe that will end italics

      which is actually the less than arrow – forward slash – i – more than arrow

  358. To switch to italic us with an i inside. Or a b for bold. The code will not appear in the text which is why I couldn’t type it for real.
    To cancel bold or italic just repeat the code – it is a toggle command.
    It is really quite simple. Give it a try.
    See, I’m good for something, right?
    🙂

    • Sorry but the code characters did not show up above. Let me try again:
      Start with a “”.
      Lets see if it shows up now…

    • OK, I’ll have to describe the character instead of typing it. Everything I typed between the first one and the second on disappeared as if the system considered them to be html code rather than text.
      Anyway the two characters that must surround the i or b is the “less then key (shift-comma) and the “greater than” symbol (shift-period).
      ><

        • Where was the “plan” in this video? The black guy says he wants to run for president in 2016 and for some strange reason he doesn’t seem to think Obama is God either (like you said they all do).
          He did say he worries that the U.S. might devolve into anarchy due to political conditions, but we have gotten thru much worse times such as world wars, the great depression and racial violence. So his fears are unfounded and he knows it or he would not bother to run in 2016.
          But you seem to think this proves your theory that Obama will not step down but no matter who might mention it, that doesn’t prove it will happen.
          And that nonsense article that Obama is a member of ISIS because he raised his finger just proves how gullible people can be. They practically claim that Obama will somehow help ISIS to take over America. As if congress and the American voters would let that happen. If Obama told Americans to surrender to ISIS and become Muslim, how many of us do you think would go along with that? Everyone but you, right?
          I know he is soft on terrorism and tries too hard not to offend Islam but you must understand his upbringing and ideology (watch “2016 Obama’s America) and after receiving the Nobel Peace Prize he is hell-bent to make peace not war. His attempt to separate the terrorists from Islam will fail and the public will come to hate hip for being so weak and stupid. But his plan is not working and Muslims hate him and the U.S. and if ISIS ever takes over the U.S. Obama will be the first to be beheaded.
          So your idea that Obama will become a Muslim antichrist is still ludicrous. It makes no logical sense and just won’t happen. I don’t care how many silly videos you post. Just because it is on YouTube doesn’t mean it is true.
          Same is true for Nibiru.

          • I do not think I am going to bother with you.

            it is well known that Dr Ben Carson is a Republican, and medical doctor, and a strong critic of Obama.

            since you know nothing about what is happening in this country, I am not going to stress myself trying to explain the last 8 years and the last 50 years.

            when you show yourself to be informed, then I will talk with you.

            • I am a student of history and you are a conspiracy theorist who believes that all sorts of fantasies are about to happen. I’ve been following these people in many areas for most of my life. Alien invasions, civil war, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves, foreign invasions, meteor strikes, financial collapse etc etc, and so far, to date, exactly zero of them have happened. So pardon me if I’m a bit skeptical and if I don’t believe your views on current events.
              Like every other president, Obama will retire.
              There won’t be anarchy in the streets.
              Elections will not be suspended.
              Life will go on normally.
              A new antichrist candidate will be elected as president. (God forbid if Hillary gets in!)
              And folks like you all over the country will be shaking their heads wondering what went wrong. And they will head right back to the prophetic drawing board, although I expect many to hang on for a while they are waiting for Nibiru to arrive.

            • Marianne,

              Jim G. is a contrarian ! He is contrary for the sake of being contrary. He is basically playing the devil’s advocate. As far as odds go, he will be right much more often by denying a specific time frame, than another giving concrete, specific, hard dates. He deals in generalities while others are dealing with specifics. A person who approaches something in this manner doesn’t necessarily know anything, but the odds are stacked in their favor that something will not happen,opposed to something happening on that specific date. It gives the perception that he knows what he is talking about, when in all actuality he knows nothing. That is just the cold hard reality of things. The downside for him will be, that he will be blindsided when it does come to pass. His problem now is that the time frame has narrowed to such an extent that probabilities have actually flipped to the other side of the equation and the fact that it is in Yah’s hands and not in probabilities. Jim hides his fear in his perceived rational, logical mind!

              • I understand..he has been this way since day 1

              • You’re right about one thing, I do deal in probabilities. I‘ve studied hundreds of different interpretations and I reject any and all that are so improbable that I consider them to have zero chance of happening.
                As for dates, I have given many specific dates, mostly in history that clearly indicate when the prophecy has occurred. I don’t give future dates as I am waiting for future signs that must occur first. I have always suggested the year 2031 for the Second Coming – 2 millennium from the resurrection, but that is only an educated guess. So I reject 2016 and the blood moon theory and 2017 and the jubilee theory, both proposed by Marianne on other topics. Both of course can’t be correct, but both can be wrong and we will soon see that they are wrong.
                I have been waiting for a New World Order and an antichrist for 40 years, so such an event would certainly catch my attention, so don’t think I’ll be caught unaware. But I find my own interpretation (one I studied, not made up) is unfolding in the news every day. What I don’t see is any talk of a New World Order, or the UN taking over all world governments. Sure you can find YouTube videos that proclaim it is all happening right now, but I’m not that gullible. I watch Fox News and CNN all day when I’m on my computer (5-8 hours a day) so if such a world-changing event was right around the corner I’m sure I would see it in plenty of time to reject an RFID chip in my hand.
                Just because I don’t live in a YouTube fantasy world doesn’t mean I’m out of touch.

                • jim

                  well you did it again.

                  you do not read what I write.

                  I have a page called blood moon frenzy, in which I say i do NOT….NOT….NOT believe the blood moon theory

                  I do not have a jubilee theory….I have presented different views on it, but no conclusion, as the jews do not follow gentile thinking, but the torah..and according to them, they will not have a jubilee or a countdown to it until all jews have returned to Israel.

                  also your estimate of 2031 is based on the solar calendar, and god follows a lunar calendar…

      • Well, they do show up… if you type them in reverse order.
        Who knew.

  359. Yes, “all good”. I didn’t know html worked here. I wonder if color works? If that last sentence didn’t come out in colour then it doesn’t.

  360. OK, it doesn’t work. Google seems to also say no images, But there might be a way… let’s try the following: [img src=”http://i2.wp.com/www.nicetiming.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/masterpiece-sky.jpg“width=400]

  361. Oh well 🙂

  362. Only a few html commands work in text. Everything else must be done by the webmaster (Mariianne).

  363. The AC comes out of the church. John tells us this!! He is a Christian!!

  364. So I am generalizing and everyone else is specific, right?
    Well maybe my problem is I don’t understand the specific events that are about to happen in the near future, regardless of specific dates, which I will concede for now.
    Perhaps the “Left Behind” scenario (as I like to call it) has changed a bit since I first studied it, so maybe I need a refresher course. Or maybe I just need to be corrected in some areas. So let me briefly outline the world events that I thing y’all are expecting to happen soon. I’m going to list them in the order I think you think they will happen, based on many blogs on this site, mostly by Marianne.
    1. A man(antichrist) (perhaps Obama) will broker peace in the middle east.
    2. A 7-year tribulation begins.
    3. (Optional) Christians are raptured.
    4. All national leaders, Presidents, Prime Ministers, Kings, Dictators etc, will give up their power and turn their countries over to the antichrist – lets assume Obama. (He enters peaceably – Daniel).
    5. He will rule peaceably for 3-1/2 years and the world will love him.
    6. During the first 3-1/2 years Obama will reveal he is Muslim. He will create a One-World religion based on Islam. He will consolidate all banks and create a One world Currency.
    Assumption 1. If Islam becomes the world’s religion, all other faiths must convert or be killed.
    7. After 3-1/2 years antichrist will turn evil. He will declare himself to be God (Allah) and will force people to worship him by requiring everyone to have a banking chip implanted in their right hand or forehead.
    Anyone who does not worship him will be killed.
    Assumption 2: At this point the whole world will be Muslim.
    8. Seals open etc. Horsemen ride. WW3, nuclear winter, Muslim versus Muslim, earthquakes, Nibiru hits etc. 300 million Muslim Chinese invade Israel. Jews are all dead of course. Armageddon goes down.
    9. Jesus returns. Angels defeat demons, antichrist and False Prophet (whoever – not a big player) killed, Satan chained.
    10. False Muslim church destroyed By God.
    Assumption 3. Since only Muslims remain, everyone on earth is a non-believer, so they are all killed by God.
    Assumption 4. Since this scenario leaves everyone on earth dead, there must be a rapture so that all the Christians can return to populate the millennium earth.
    So there we have it – the tribulation in ten simple steps.
    Now I’m sure that not everyone agrees with these ten point, but it opens a discussion so we can all get on the same page, eventually.
    .
    Now, to Marianne…
    If you have issues with this list I suggest that you should make your own list and put it into a new blog (This one is getting pretty long-in-the-tooth) so that everyone can chime in and hopefully we can all generate a unified prophecy which will allow unbelievers to understand a clear, logical chain of events, so we will all know what to expect in the near future. The Big Picture so to speak. Right now all you have is dozens of different topics that attack the tribulation in a random fashion. Now it’s time to put everything together into one comprehensible story. A “Heaven Awaits Scenario” if you like. Then we’ll all know what we’re up against.
    Call it, “Tribulation – The Big Picture.”
    I’ll look forward to it. We all will I think.

    • jim

      interesting list…but the points you made did not come from my writings..

      as for topics 1-10, I would disagree with all of them.

      for example, the tribulation, to me is only 3 1/2 years not 7, which is followed by a time of wrath,starting at the 6th seal, where most all the earth’s population is destroyed…..

      this view comes from book of daniel and joel

      there IS a final week, or 7 years, but it is not all tribulation.

      during the wrath, all the wicked, whether they be muslim, atheist, buddist, or whatever, are destroyed..

      i have already discussed these different aspects on different pages…

      one would have to do a search ( there is a search box at top of page) putting in key words for each subtopic….

      • You have just confirmed the problem. You post a jillion articles and it seems most of them you don’t agree with, but only consider the possibility.
        So we are left with no idea what you really believe. And when I make a reference to a discussion on one of your topics you deny knowing anything about it.
        I suppose maybe you don’t believe anything on this site – it is all just other people’s theories. And now that you deny all ten of my points I’m not even sure if you think Obama will be the antichrist or not, now.
        So, no New World Order? No One world Currency? No chip?
        Do you know enough to post your own ten major events of the tribulation, or even just the near future?
        Will ISIS take over the world? Who are the beasts of Revelation? What events should we look for in the news in the near future? That kind of stuff.
        It sure would give everyone a lot to discuss.
        In any case, all the points I listed above were taken from discussions on this site. Since it is your site I associate the articles with your opinions. So you will have to set me straight, while others may chime in with their own ideas and maybe I can sort it all out.
        worth a shot if you have the time.

        • Marianne is the AC and Obama will stop her in future. Period!

          • Def-Your comment is ridiculous! Get some understanding of how Obama treats Yisrael. He offers the PM Netanyahu the back of his hand and disrespects him every chance he gets! He is not a friend of Yisrael. In fact, he is just the opposite! WISE UP!!!

            • I just tried to be funny. I read some of the discussions between Jim and Marianne. Bad humour.

              PS. Ban people is not freedom of speech. It is for countries like Turkey to not let people say their opinoin. I like to read Jims comments even if he just says garbage comments.

        • jim

          I have had it.

          I will have to block you for harassing me.

          When you change your attitude, I will let you back, but for now, you are wasting my time.

          I agree with my own articles. If I post a topic where I do not agree with others, I will say so, and then say why

          But I always agree with myself.

          And to say I do not believe anything on my own site is just proof you are a troll.

          I do not owe you a point by point discussion of your list, because I already said this was discussed on my site in other places, and I am not going to repeat myself repeadtedly for someone who does not READ or LISTEN to what anyone says.

          I suggest that, instead of pushing all your cynicism, that you take time to inform yourself of the bible contents, and read about world events….

          there is more out there besides the vatican and the sabbath.

          you have never either read my opinions, or

          you have never understood anything I wrote,

          or you are intentionally harassing me with false claims.. knowing what my opinions actually are.

          If I say the moon is blue, you will claim I said it was green, and start an argument about it.

          I do not have the time for this nonsense.

  365. Marianne, I know Jim is irritating in his sarcasm, and also rather rude, however without his opposition the site would not be so interesting. I like the idea of people presenting their timeline ideas and would be sorry to see you reject this particular topic.

    It would need a new thread though.

    I am personally undecided about many things, and I find that, although lots of whacky ideas are brought out here, there are lots of points that I would not have considered without them being discussed. All sides of an argument being covered should make for better understanding, although it is not always the case.

  366. Yes, fair enough.

    • this blog can be a lot to keep up with.

      there are over 820 posts

      so it is best to ask me what is my view on something, and I can give you a list of pages where it is discussed.

      thank you for all you do.

  367. Marianne,
    I apologize for being so frustrating to you. My memory isn’t as good as it used to be so I forget details of some of your posts such as whether or not you completely agree with it, somewhat agree with it or disagree with it. Add to that the posts of similar positions of others here and you can imagine the confusion I’m facing.
    As for my sarcastic wit, that’s been my debating style for most of my life. The humor is to let you know I’m kidding – in the manner of Don Rickles who puts everyone down but is never serious. I only do this with my best friends, never strangers and I consider all my Christian brothers and sisters to be my friends. After all, we will all be together in the family of God someday and I am looking forward to meeting every one of you.
    And as my friends I am very concerned that you all get thru the tribulation unscathed. Most Christians won’t – only a small “remnant.” So I consider these discussions to be critical to all of us. It is our Christian duty to spread the truth to anyone we can. That is all I’m trying to do here. We all know about “tough love” – sometimes it is necessary, but sometimes it can backfire. But we are all adults here and we should have thick enough skin not to run away from a fight, especially when we are fighting for the Lord.
    After all, I’m pretty much alone on this site. Everyone thinks I’m a sabbath-keeping moron and that I’ve never read the bible and that I hate God and Jesus etc, etc, and so-on. So I am constantly being bombarded with insults to my faith and intelligence but I persevere because I promised God I would fight for His word and try to save souls to the best of my ability. Otherwise I would not continue taking such abuse. But I don’t consider it to be abuse. I turn the other cheek and let it roll off my back. I would hope that others here might do the same.
    So I will try not to ask you to re-list all your views – I realize that would take too much time for many people, even myself. Sometimes I do need clarification on some points and I have often spent hours looking thru old blogs to find a discussion I had many months before, often with no luck, which is why I sometimes make assumptions based on my memory, which, as I said, isn’t what it used to be.
    I’m only here to help people, not to simply contradict everything people say. That comment is very hurtful to me – it contradicts everything I am about. But everyone is entitled to an opinion, so I will suck it up if everyone else can do the same – and even if they can’t.
    And remember this – I already know I’ll never change some peoples’ minds, so whenever I argue with you I am not writing it for you to read but for others such as nicetiming etc, who may be open to other interpretations. After all, isn’t that whole point of this site?
    I sure hope so.

  368. Hi Leatherneck,
    Got this post in my mail:
    Still waiting for an answer Jim.
    But I simply can’t find the thread nor can I remember what it is referring to, so please remind me what we were discussing and I’ll get back to you asap.
    Jim

    • The false prophet causes all to worship the beast and receive the mark to buy, or sell. Otherwise, they are murdered.

      This is no small event.

      Although, you do not believe the situation will be global, but caused only inside the so called west by the Pope. I find it strange you think you are 100% correct. What if you are not?

      I do not think it will be a chip and I do not know 100% what the event that misleads the elect will be, but the Bible appears clear man will be allowed to have his global tower of babel and a moral wilderness that Old Knob had before the flood. With the rebirth of Israel, we are at the door of the end.

      • All my predictions, like blueprints, come with tolerances – like 10 inches +/- .01”
        So even if I consider that I’m 95% correct, there is always a chance that things won’t turn out like I figured. But believe me, if a New World Order ever does form, with a One World Dictator then I’m sure I will recognize the alternate version of prophecy coming true.
        The reason I’m so certain is that 99% of my prophetic time line (the 8 “kings” from Daniel thru Revelation) have happened, while most interpretations I’ve read have nothing in the Book of Revelation having happened yet. That leaves four kingdoms (5-8) still having to form with the first beast of Revelation having to run 1260 years. Time is running short so I simply don’t see how so much could happen in such a short time. And we’re talking about HUGE global events.
        So let me ask anyone here, how exactly will the antichrist (Obama?) take over a not yet formed world government? Will this happen overnight by an act of God? Will we all wake up one day and the New World Order will already be in place? Look at how long it took to create the U.N. including the failed League of Nations. And they have no autonomy to control the laws of member nations. Democracy, Dictatorship, Sharia Law, – it‘s all good.
        So my logical mind just can‘t understand how this will happen. I do understand that it WILL happen (according to the theory) but I’m stuck on the HOW. And so far, not even the movies, who have very creative writers, have shown this – they simply skip over that part.
        So if anyone can explain the HOW, I would give it more consideration, assuming 1. It is logical and 2. There are some signs In recent events that it is about to happen.
        So far I only get the WHAT and everything else is based on TouTube videos and conspiracy theories. Nothing concrete. People have been saying the Freemasons and the Bilderbergs etc are about to create a New World Order, but after 50 years nothing has changed.
        Meanwhile I see events happening in Europe every day that may easily lead to the final fulfillment of my interpretation, so when I weigh the two theories together there is only one logical choice.
        But then, not many Christians think logically when it comes to the bible.
        So, is anyone up to the challenge? I need help here.

      • All my predictions, like blueprints, come with tolerances – like 10 inches +/- .01”
        So even if I consider that I’m 95% correct, there is always a chance that things won’t turn out like I figured. But believe me, if a New World Order ever does form, with a One World Dictator then I’m sure I will recognize the alternate version of prophecy coming true.
        The reason I’m so certain is that 99% of my prophetic time line (the 8 “kings” from Daniel thru Revelation) have happened, while most interpretations I’ve read have nothing in the Book of Revelation having happened yet. That leaves four kingdoms (5-8) still having to form with the first beast of Revelation having to run 1260 years. Time is running short so I simply don’t see how so much could happen in such a short time. And we’re talking about HUGE global events.
        So let me ask anyone here, how exactly will the antichrist (Obama?) take over a not yet formed world government? Will this happen overnight by an act of God? Will we all wake up one day and the New World Order will already be in place? Look at how long it took to create the U.N. including the failed League of Nations. And they have no autonomy to control the laws of member nations. Democracy, Dictatorship, Shari Law, a- its all good‘.
        So my logical mind just can understand how this will happen. I do understand that it WILL happen‘t (according to the theory) but I’m stuck on the HOW. And so far, not even the movies, who have very creative writers, simply skip over that part. have shown this – they
        So if anyone can explain the HOW, I would give it more consideration, assuming 1. It is logical and 2. There are some signs In recent events that it is about to happen.
        So far I only get the WHAT and everything else is based on TouTube videos and conspiracy theories. Nothing concrete. People have been saying the Freemasons and the Bilderbergs etc are about to create a New World Order, but after 50 years nothing has changed.
        Meanwhile I see events happening in Europe every day that may easily lead to fulfillment of my interpretation, so the finalwhen I weigh the two theories together there is only one logical choice.
        But then, not many Christians think logically when it comes to the bible.
        to the bible.
        So, is anyone up to the challenge? I need help here.

  369. I agree. For it is said of the church at pergamum “thou knowest where Satan’s seat is, which probably means it was near there. Pergamum was the closest of the 7 churches to Istanbul.
    Phil

  370. Leatherneck,
    In response to your question:
    .
    “BTW, you never answered my question on the women who ride the beast. You ignored it as it was to complex.
    If memory serves, it is no small event to cause the whole world to swear an oath to the beast, or not buy and sell. This is global. How do you get it is only within the western world?“

    The answer is simple. If you follow the 4 beasts of Daniel followed by the two beasts and two additional “kings” of Revelation you discover the beasts are not worldwide. They are the kingdoms that “control” the majority of God’s church. With Daniel these were the Jews and with Revelation it changed to the Christians. The modern beast is the Vatican and the woman is the church that rides it – the Catholic church. And these entities are indeed worldwide, not just local. But the Catholic church does control most of the worlds’ Christians, and obviously the Book of Revelation can’t deal separately with every Christian denomination so it deals with the largest and most apostate, but it does throw in the apostate “daughter” churches so it really does cover the “whole world” at least the whole of the world of God’s followers.
    Unfortunately many people want to include every living person on earth into the prophecy but that is a mistake. Just as ancient Israel was punished for its lawbreaking, but only the Jews, not the lost tribes, nor the Babylonians, nor the Assyrians etc, modern Christianity will be destroyed (no other religions) and replaced with a proper God-like version.
    So the mark of the beast and the 7 last plagues are not for every person on earth. The punishment is not for those who are ignorant of the one and only true God. Otherwise God would have placed every human on earth into the Babylonian captivity. But that’s not hoe He works. Some other god might, but not ours.
    .
    And speaking of unanswered questions, earlier I posted the question to anyone with an ear asking exactly HOW one man is supposed to come to power over the whole earth? And how will a single religion come to be? And why will every nation on earth give their power to the beast? Every nation, living together in peace under one man? And all of them calling him God? So far no one can tell me how, only that they are certain all this will happen, however unbelievable the story might be.

    So I turn your own question back on you and ask how you can possibly believe that the events will be global?

    Bless.

    • Where does the woman’s power come from?
      Well the beast gained the power from the dragon.
      This has happened twice in the past.
      Justinian gave the papacy power to put down the 3 horns and the little horn popped up.
      Rev_13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
      Charlemagne did the same, he protected the papacy and gave the Pope his power.
      So what will happen in the final days??
      It looks like the EU will give power to the papacy.
      Why? to defeat the one in Jerusalem proclaiming himself to be King!
      Who is it?
      The papacy will say the Anti-Christ. The Bible says the Lord Jesus.
      Proof
      Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
      Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
      Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

      Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
      Psa 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
      Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
      Psa 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
      Psa 2:5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
      Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
      Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

      Rev_17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

      Take Care

    • I have answered that way up above.

      To me, the regions of the world are divided into 10 at present, but they are suppose to be only seven. One will up root three, or three will become one.

      All churches under one roof we see happening now. Except for some like the Baptist and Cumberland Presbyterian. All religions get you to heaven through works. That sort of thing.

      I see the Central Banks with America’s Central Bank playing the role of controlling the world behind the Throne. Perhaps, a North American Union Throne.

      There will be a rebuilt Temple as the Beast allows them to build one and brings peace to a war torn world. The false prophet will cause all to worship the beast and take a mark, or be murdered.

      You do not agree with me. I understand that and I support your right to do so.

      Peace.

  371. Trev,
    You are right that the EU will give power to the Vatican. This will restore the first beast of Revelation – the Holy Roman Empire. Look for another powerful German leader to become the next Charlemagne and look for ten EU nations to join in a religious alliance with the Vatican as the supreme religious power.
    But this will not be to defeat some antichrist figure in Jerusalem. I believe it will be to counter the growing Islamic threat in Europe. I think the pope will be given the power to enforce religious edicts such as forced Sunday omly worship (mark of the beast) which would prevent Muslims from praying on their holy day, Friday. They must obey or leave the country. Unbenounced to faithful Christians who will faithfull worship every Sunday, that they themselves will receive the mark and receive the 7 last plagues. Once they come to realize this they will hate the Vatican (woman) and destroy the Catholic church. They will actually be doing God’s work – the destruction of Mystery Babylon.
    Look for this to begin to happen soon. ISIS has already claimed they will soon plant their flag in St.Peter’s Square so all European Christians are already on edge and it won’t be long before they do something about it.
    To me, this scenario sounds far more realistic than a man taking over the world and chipping 8 billion people then claiming to be God. That is pure Sci-fi to me. Guess we’ll just have to see which one actually happens.

  372. The Muslims have a similar idea as the RCC in respect of the Daajal.
    The teaching of the Anti-Christ and the Daajal are amazingly similar.
    The Muslims think the battle will bring the Romans and the Muslims together for a while.
    To me it is obvious when the true saints are taken to out of the time of trouble (Not to heaven as some teach) then the Holy war will start to begin against the Lord and those found worthy.

    The Muslims will realize their mistake quickly but the RCC with all it’s traditions and idolatry will never fall on their knees to their LORD!
    So the city will be as Babylon of old.
    Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    I still think the Pope will play a great part in the EU Alliance. Being the religious head he will have great influence as in the days gone by and bring the nations together.
    This Alliance will be beyond Armageddon and the war will be for many years.
    Why?
    God could destroy the RCC in one blow but as it reads
    Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    Again God’s amazing character will shine through
    Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
    Many will have the chance to come to the Lord.
    As far as the Muslims destroying Rome, I do not think so.
    That will be in the hands of the saints.
    Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
    Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
    Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
    Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
    Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

  373. You’re completely wrong, and misleading. what is the point in pointing out INSIGNIFICANT CITIES BY OR ON SEVEN HILLS?! You’re also coming up with a new theory, red flag. If Catholic you’re a hypocrite, biased. MECCA IS NOT A CITY IN WHICH THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS HAS BEEN SPILLED IN MASS AND YOU MORON CATHOLICS DON’T EVEN DEFINE SAINTS RIGHT. OBVIOUSLY SUCH A LARGE NUMBER OF MIRACLE WORKERS AS YOU MORONS CALL THEM WERE NOT MURDERED IN MECCA, LET ALONE CHRISTIANS. THAT WAS IN ROME. You are ignorant of or forget this miss “look what discovered! now I know it all!”: Jesus said converts to false Christianity GET WORSE, become twice the children of Hell, and GOD SEES THROUGHOUT ALL TIME. So guess what he saw about polytheist pagan MASS-CHRISTIAN-MURDERING ROME (yeah you forgot that part right?! Blame Satan), CONVERT TO A FALSE POLYTHEIST FORM OF CHRISTIANITY THAT ALSO HAD PERVERTED VERSION OF MARY, A WHORE VERSION AS IT’S GODDESS OF LOVE? HE SAW IT GO FROM BAD TO WORSE, and like the Pharisees who whitewashed the gravestones of those prophets they murdered so the priests of that giant worldwide Catholic cult, and possibly Peter’s, pretending he was the first Pope even as a demonic insult to him.

    How many did you mislead with your post?

    • this is a bible study to evaluate different interpretations.

      what is your version of truth?

      • version? it’s the facts

        read what i said about Shoebat’s claim that Mecca is the city/whore on 7 hills https://eternian.wordpress.com/2015/11/18/shoebat/

        Also something to think about, Westerner’s hardly know anything about Muslim this or that or Caliphates, do you really think God is going to make a major prophecy set and it’s going to be new to the Americans of all people trying to figure out what God is talking about, or do you think God is going to keep the basic theme simple and will have progressed with the evolution of their studies leading to the conclusion that it is, and REASONABLY SO: ROME, the Catholics who are just as or more numerous than Muslims AND FOR MORE GUILTY OF DISBOEYING THE TRUTH, since they are a perverted type of Christian unlike Muslims which is a huge cult of Satanic ignorance and a revived Roman Empire?

        Do you think God was having kids all over the world everywhere for generations watching movies and reading books left and right concerning Rome and its might and glory for nothing only for all the sudden now it’s gonna be a revived calpiphate????????????? What he world still knows about Muslims in general is that they are a big mess that attack themselves even and rely on the very people they terrorize for money! They are seen as lowly people for the most part and only Dubai and Saudi Arabia which are not know for trying to conquer the world or killing Christians in mass have any glory worth mentioning.

        Imagine if suddenly some aliens came down and made a glorious city and starting flirting with the kings and queens of the world and their ship rested on seven big legs with a mountain cone shape and the aliens killed about, oh, 100 Catholic missionaries of all races sent to greet them, how fast do you think Catholics would be saying, “FINALLY, PROPHECY HAS BEEN FULFILLED, SEE IT WASN’T US, THIS MAKES PERFECT SENSE! IT WAS DAVID ICKE’S REPTILIAN IMPOSTERS AFTER ALL! LOOK THEY HURT US CATHOLICS THE TRUE CHURCH SEE WE AREN’T THE EVIL WHORE OF THE BIBLE!!!!:”

        How convenient to suddenly latch on to a new interpretation and ignore all the other signs for an alien theory.

  374. I think it is Jerusalem and its inhabitants the Jews. They slew Christ, the prophets and the saints in Jerusalem. Israel is the Homosexual capitol of the world like Sodom. Jews make Gods of themselves and have a long standing preference for false gods like in Egypt and Canaan. The national leaders of the earth have committed all kinds of fornication with Jews and the Jews control much of the finances, media and politics of the earth.
    The greatest revolutions, wars, financial crimes, terrorist attacks and genocides were committed by Jews. John 8:44 says it all. They are compulsive liars and murderers just like their father the Devil. There is a reason why a new Jerusalem is required. The old one will be destroyed and it has seven hills. Jews did 911.

    • In prophecy a woman represents a church, so your argument would have to be that Judaism is the great false church. This is the religion of Jesus and when He returns, the religion He will teach the world will still be Judaism. He will not be teaching the catechism nor will He allow Sunday worship, Christmas, Easter or any other pagan practices. It is Christianity that has become the whore, primarily due to the Roman emperor Constantine who combined all the religions of the empire and called it Christianity. Later the Catholic church picked up more \pagan ideas such as hell and purgatory from the Greeks. This is the “Mystery Babylon” that must be destroyed when Jesus returns. What will be left of Christianity will look much like Judaism in the end. So don’t think for a minute that God will destroy His people, the Jews. He will set them straight about who their savior is and He will welcome them back into the fold.
      You may be an anti-Semite but I can assure you God is not.

  375. – the babylon is europe community and city its represent is rome.
    – the beast is islam
    – 7 mountains/hills is istanbul turkey

    babylon sit on the beast 7 hills because turkey is a member of EU.

    the beast hate her and will attack her, it is happening now with immigrant invasion soon continue with massive terrorist attack in europe. fall of babylon in one hour that’s 41 years means the war against terror for 41 years end with destruction of italian capital rome.


  376. THERE’S ONLY ONE TRUTH…

    JESUS SAID:

    “JERUSALEM, JERUSALEM, YOU WHO KILL THE PROPHETS
    and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing…”

    LUKE 13:34
    .
    .
    .
    ONE QUESTION:

    IS ROME THE SAME CITY OF JERUSALEM ?

    ANSWER: NO!
    .
    .
    ONE MORE QUESTION:

    IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THE SAME CITY OF JERUSALEM?

    ANSWER: NO!
    ;
    ;
    ;
    THAT’S WHY THE TRUTH IS …….

    THE WOMAN DRUNKED AND PROSTITUTE FROM THE BOOK OF REVELATION (APOCALYPSE) IS……JERUSALEM !!!
    .
    .
    .
    THE PROPHET EZEKIEL SAID ABOUT JERUSALEM… CHAPTER 16
    .
    .
    .
    JERUSALEM IS NOT CATHOLIC CHURCH !!!

    JERUSALEM IS NOT ROMEW !!!

    .
    .
    .
    THE SEVENTH DAY ADVENTISTS and JEHOVA’S WITNESSES ARE TWO RELIGIOUS GROUPS TEACHING SOME HERESY TO PEOPLE !
    .
    .
    .
    JERUSALEM IS THE WOMAN PROSTITUTE BECAUSE THIS CITY COMMITED ABOMINATIONS AGAINST THE LORD JESUS !!!

    JERUSALEM KILLED THE PROPHETES AND KILLED JESUS TOO !!!
    .
    .
    .

  377. Everybody has a theroy of revelations chapter 17 and 18, it’s easy to twist a scripture to our thoughts and ideas, if you want the truth on something that you believe is correct, then pray about it.
    God said it best, “my thoughts are not your thoughts,” we can’t predict nor calculate God.

  378. The beast sits on seven hills. The WTO sits on seven regions. A North American Union would create 7 from 10. All give their power to one.

    To me, G-d must through the world system a bone to bring about a global Tower of Babel. Notice the commercial of the dog/monkey/child during the Superbowl halftime. It was an abomination of DNA. Just like before Noah’s flood.

    G-d will have to put a stop to this occult agenda, or all things will be possible for mankind. Remember G-d’s statement right before he destroyed the original Tower of Babel. Let us confuse their tongues, or all man desires he will attain.

    We are right at the footstep. Again, this is just my opinion. What will be the bone G-d throws the world system? A rapture? Economic collapse? I am not 100% sure. But, through peace, many will be fooled.

    I’m just thinking this morning. I have not posted for a while and I felt moved to write this.

    Peace.

  379. I believe those who are behind such a video are telling us a few things. What is hidden in plain sight?

    One animal stares at another. Is it a reflection? Do those who made this believe you and I are just creatures lacking intelligence. A pet so to speak. Nothing more than a lower form of creature that is really a primate?

    In the book of Enoch, we can read about the human DNA that was corrupted. Half human, half fallen Angel, animals and fish was corrupted too. Noah was perfect in his generations. Strange statement.

    To me, humans were created by G-d the Father with limits. For reasons we are not given, we are only so tall, we can not move objects with our thoughts and we are only so strong.

    Changing human DNA to be a dog/monkey/baby is an abomination. The earth born were an abomination too. In the New Age, all of G-d’s orders are destroyed and his creation changed. I find this to be just as it was during the time of Noah.

    Those who worship themselves as a god, or do the bidding of Old Knob for this world system, are telling us how much they despise us. That we will be changed. As a society and as creatures.

    So, it is written G-d allows mankind to have his world government. Only to prove mankind can not rule themselves as humans are sinful. How does this happen? A rapture? Global war, then peace by the beast? I can not tell. But, I believe G-d will not allow this to continue much longer.

    Where ever I go, I try to remember to treat others, love others, as G-d loved us. It is not always easy and I find myself at work reminding myself to take a deep breath. This one thought will help all of us change into a new son/sister of G-d.

    Do not worry about Old Knob, or the beast. G-d is in control and G-d’s plan is unfolding. Remember, we turned our backs on G-d’s laws first. Now, we pay.

  380. We are a long way from being able to do what the commercial illustrates. I’m sure the commercials creator had no idea of what is in the bible so there is no ulterior motive involved, only an attempt to create a humorous commercial. P.T. Barnum created all sorts of fake sideshow creatures 150 years ago so this is nothing new and the “jackelope” was a popular souvenir item in the southwest and probably still is.
    Christ will return long before mankind can create any sort of weird hybrid animals. A unicorn, maybe, but not a centaur. And no dinosaurs.
    To put any significance on this commercial or any other similar videos, including movies, is a waste of time. Too many Christians are looking into every nook and cranny for any sort of items or events that they think are part of bible prophecy. They see Satan everywhere.
    I just think we shouldn’t become overly paranoid about everything we see on TV and the internet. Or hear on blog sites. We already know pretty much what will soon happen so we need to wait and watch for the real signs Jesus spoke of. We won’t see prophetic fulfilment on YouTube or TV commercials.
    And we don’t need any more proof that we are in the “time of Noah” or the end times in general.
    Now lets all just kick back and wait fir that rapture. 😉

    • Perhaps, you know the commercial creator. I do not. The last two Superbowl halftime shows have been occult world system agenda.

      Now, Paul states there will be a catching away before the wrath of G-d comes to this earth and the dead will rise first. Those who actually believe in Christ and do good works in the name of Christ will rise second. One’s heart has to be in the right place. That’s the part I am concerned about.

      You Jim may not believe in a rapture, or you might believe in a rapture when Christ steps foot on the Mount of Olives, it’s hard for me to tell. But, you can not state issues as not Biblical, when the Bible clearly states they will happen.

      Your sarcasm precedes you. You are misleading true Christians. Are you doing so on purpose? Is that the real reason you post here?

      You are obviously well educated. But, human wisdom is foolishness to G-d’s wisdom.

      • I think he is a government troll.. he criticizes everything said here

      • I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture until I read the bible more carefully. In every case where so-called rapture proof exists if you read it in the entire context of the chapter you find the proper time frame is the return of Christ at the 7th trump not any specified time frame earlier, generally accepted as 7 years due to misinterpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel.
        Historically, when a king returned home from exploits the city would pour out to meet him outside the city walls. This tradition will be employed when Jesus returns. The dead in Christ and those who are alive in the true church will be converted and rise to meet Him in the clouds as He descends to the mount of Olives. Call it a rapture if you want. But it only says we will be caught up to meet Him in the AIR. It does NOT say that Jesus is going to turn right around and whisk these people off to heaven for X number of years. If that were true there is no reason the bible would not have made it perfectly clear that it would happen. A few more words would be all that was needed yet they are not there.
        Jesus never predicted and early return followed by the permanent return. The disciples knew this so when they write about the second coming it is assumed that they are talking about the last trump. They too did not add a 7-year gap and two returns, but because of the words they use many people are able to insert assumptions into them and extrapolate an early rapture, if you take certain verses out of context and fail to read on to see what happens AFTER the so-called rapture, which is clearly the beginning of the millennium and not some earlier date.
        Now, I thought you were claiming an imminent Second Coming so with no rapture yet there would have to be at LEAST another 7 years to go. All of the 2017 Second Coming fans have given up on the rapture as it now conflicts with their time frame. Either that or they just shift to a smaller gap since there is no gap in the scriptures, they can make up any number they want and come up with a clever explanation as to why that shorter time frame is correct.
        And many just say they aren’t sure anymore when or if the rapture will happen. Well, soon they will be saying the same thing about the New World Order, One-World Government, One world Currency and a One World Dictator / Antichrist. The 2017’ers are really scrambling right now trying to explain why a 7-year tribulation is 5-1/2 years gone with nothing yet happening. These people are no doubt wondering at least about their time line if not the whole interpretation in general.
        So the rapture is not a mystery. If you read the bible without a pre-judged agenda and in a logical manner without assumptions, disproving an early rapture is simple. YES or MAYBE don’t apply.
        The only conclusion is NO.

        • My whole argument was not about a rapture, but G-d throwing the world system a bone to have their global government. Rapture, or no rapture, there is nothing I can do but wait on G-d’s plan to unfold.

          There are 350,000 troops, plus support in northern Saudi Arabia. This is no training group. It is for something, or to get something. The B52 America sent are not for ISIS. It is to counter act something much greater in my grunt opinion.

          “I will put hooks in your jaws…” I suspect Russia get PO’ed and comes down with all it’s supporters into Iraq moving south.

          The Bible states when Israel is reborn in a single day to look up. Christ’s return will occur within that generation. We are that generation. G-d’s word will unfold as stated in the Bible.

          I am not of the 2017 crowd. I am of the soon regional war that sets up a global war crowd. It reads in the Bible this will happen right before Christ’s return. Between the rebirth of Israel and the return of Christ.

          • It appears that there will be two wars. The 2nd seal will be the war of Daniel – kings of the north south. Countries will fight one another in that war and billions will die.
            The war of Magog (which many believes will include Russia) will be won solely by God. It won’t be a nuclear world war as it is won by fire and ice from heaven. It may be related to Armageddon which is partly a spiritual war fought by angels and demons and will be won by Christ, not any group of nations. This is just a guess since there are no time frames on Gog.
            WW3 should be easier to identify especially if the first seal can be properly identified, but here is the problem with that…
            Many people believe that the Antichrist comes to power with a 7-year peace plan and a New World Order / One-World Government. For some crazy reason people think that he comes in peaceably and all the nations of the world give away their governments to be ruled by the great peacemaker.
            That is just nuts. It will never happen, yet millions of Christians are waiting for it. So for them the first seal will be elusive and chances are they will miss it. But the second seal should be unmistakable although it won’t begin in the way most people believe. At that time it will be critical for Christians to open their minds and give up their old interpretation and start looking for the truth. Some will, others won’t. Many are fixed in their interpretations and will wait for it forever. Some will be waiting for Nibiru just as long, and other non-events.
            But you are right about being in the last generation – the one that will see the Second Coming. But those people who are trying to add fixed “generation” figures to various recent event dates and come up with date predictions like 2017 / 2018.
            Good to see you’re not one of those folks.

  381. It is my understanding the Beast comes to power during a large war and brings peace. But, it is a false peace that lasts 3.5 years.

    The Anti-Christ should be the Pope who makes fire come down from heaven and causes all to receive a mark worshiping the Beast, or they will receive death.

    Both are given their power by Satan. The beast walks into the rebuilt Temple at the 3.5 year global peace and announces to be the messiah.

    Something cause the world system to ban together globally. An economic meltdown, a global war, a UFO event, or a rapture. I don’t know. But, the Bible is clear it will happen.

    • According to Daniel, beasts represent kingdoms, not people. And the beasts of Revelation follow in the footsteps of the beasts of Daniel which were all successive kingdoms, each one replacing the previous kingdom. This is confirmed by John who says that his first beast has parts of the four previous beasts. So the first beast of Revelation is the continuation of the last beast of Daniel – the Roman empire. History tells us that it was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire which consisted of ten nations (horns) at first but was pared down to seven by 558AD. It was also predicted it would last 1260 years, both in Daniel and again in Revelation. Only the Holy Roman Empire lasted exactly that long so it is clear that the first beast-kingdom of Revelation was the Holy Roman Empire.
      But that is not the end-time beast who issues the mark of the beast. That would be the second Book of Revelation which followed the Holy Roman Empire. According to the bible it is a religious kingdom appearing Christlike but speaking blesphemies. It is a great false church that is also a worldwide kingdom. Only the Vatican fits this description. And you are right that the pope is the Antichrist / False Prophet. The Catholic church is the woman who rides the Vatican beast. The False Prophet gets his power from the beast.
      But there are two more kingdoms mentioned in Revelation. They are simply called the 7th and 8th “kings.” They are not new kingdoms so they do not rise from the land or sea. They are merely revivals of previous kingdoms – the Roman empire and the Holy Roman Empire.
      The Roman empire has already been restored in the European Union. So the 7th kingdom has been fulfilled. The 8th (which is of the 7th) is merely a close union between the Vatican and ten nations of the European Union.
      Without the political power of the European Union, the pope / Vatican would never be able to enforce the mark of the beast. Therefore the Holy Roman Empire must be recreated and many observers in Europe are seeing that this is about to happen.
      Many people believe the Antichrist will rule the entire world – the dictator of every country on earth. The pope being the leader of the Catholic church would never be an acceptable leader by more than a few modern countries, perhaps not even one. So there is something wrong with your assessment of prophecy. Some things just don’t make any sense, and as you said, you are not sure what could trigger these events. The truth is, nothing could trigger the kind of events you and many others are expecting. The prophecy is not about the 70th week of Daniel. That is already fulfilled. The prophecy I’ve described is nearly complete. When the pope is given his power from the European Union he will become the False Prophet and the first seal will be opened. We need to be looking for this to happen, not for a New World Order / One-World Government with a charismatic leader coming to power.
      Tell you what, look for both but be able to recognize which is the one that actually unfolds.

    • According to Daniel, beasts represent kingdoms, not people. And the beasts of Revelation follow in the footsteps of the beasts of Daniel which were all successive kingdoms, each one replacing the previous kingdom. This is confirmed by John who says that his first beast has parts of the four previous beasts. So the first beast of Revelation is the continuation of the last beast of Daniel – the Roman empire. History tells us that it was replaced by the Holy Roman Empire which consisted of ten nations (horns) at first but was pared down to seven by 558AD. It was also predicted it would last 1260 years, both in Daniel and again in Revelation. Only the Holy Roman Empire lasted exactly that long so it is clear that the first beast-kingdom of Revelation was the Holy Roman Empire.
      But that is not the end-time beast who issues the mark of the beast. That would be the second Book of Revelation which followed the Holy Roman Empire. According to the bible it is a religious kingdom appearing Christlike but speaking blesphemies. It is a great false church that is also a worldwide kingdom. Only the Vatican fits this description. And you are right that the pope is the Antichrist / False Prophet. The Catholic church is the woman who rides the Vatican beast. The False Prophet gets his power from the beast.
      But there are two more kingdoms mentioned in Revelation. They are simply called the 7th and 8th “kings.” They are not new kingdoms so they do not rise from the land or sea. They are merely revivals of previous kingdoms – the Roman empire and the Holy Roman Empire.
      The Roman empire has already been restored in the European Union. So the 7th kingdom has been fulfilled. The 8th (which is of the 7th) is merely a close union between the Vatican and ten nations of the European Union.
      Without the political power of the European Union, the pope / Vatican would never be able to enforce the mark of the beast. Therefore the Holy Roman Empire must be recreated and many observers in Europe are seeing that this is about to happen.
      Many people believe the Antichrist will rule the entire world – the dictator of every country on earth. The pope being the leader of the Catholic church would never be an acceptable leader by more than a few modern countries, perhaps not even one. So there is something wrong with your assessment of prophecy. Some things just don’t make any sense, and as you said, you are not sure what could trigger these events. The truth is, nothing could trigger the kind of events you and many others are expecting. The prophecy is not about the 70th week of Daniel. That is already fulfilled. The prophecy I’ve described is nearly complete. When the pope is given his power from the European Union he will become the False Prophet and the first seal will be opened. We need to be looking for this to happen, not for a New World Order / One-World Government with a charismatic leader coming to power.
      Tell you what, look for both but be able to recognize which is the one that actually unfolds.

      • conundrum

        the pope cannot be BOTH the AC and the false prophet..they are described differently.

        so are you saying the AC is the EU?

      • Revelation 11-7

        The beast who comes out of the bottomless pit murders the two witnesses.

        I agree a beast is revered to kingdoms in the Bible. But, in this situation, there is also a beast, false prophet and Satan running a global kingdom.

        Remember, 10 kings give their power to one. They are of one mind.

        • don’t confuse the whore with the beast, the whore is not a kingdom, but a cult, and not christ-like, a kingdom nor cult is “christ-like:. The evil kingdom is the ANTI-Christ’s political-religious kingdom-cult, the whore RIDES on it’s back. Perhaps spirituallu the RCC is a kingdom. It is political only in various ways but as an influencer mainly not directly like the AC’s who will be a direct government head. Scripture urges people leave the whore.”her:, as in “leave this cult”. There is no, “leave the AC kingdom” message, and hr the AC is male, not, a “her”. He even rejects what females want Scripture implies, so not a feminine kingdom. The RCC is described as a whore, feminine, it panders to evil rulers and makes alliances or with or flatters, for an advantage, other cults, hoping to sideline, convert or crush the true church. – Cheetah, aka Aquaman.

  382. Rev 17:8
    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    The beast that was, and is not, and yet is, is the 6th kingdom from Babylon. (5 have fallen) In our interpretation this is the kingdom of the Vatican which followed the fall of the 5th kingdom – the Holy Roman Empire. The Vatican is also part of the 8th king(dom) – a restored Holy Roman Empire. This kingdom (the European Union + Vatican) will be in operation during the tribulation. If anyone wants to kill the 2 witnesses it will be the powerful false religion run by the Vatican. So the fact that they oppose and finally kill the 2 witnesses fits in perfectly with our interpretation.
    The Vatican is the beast that will be destroyed before the Second Coming. Its leader the pope (False Prophet) will also be destroyed along with his kingdom. As for the Antichrist, note that an Antichrist is not named in Revelation nor is one destroyed along with the Vatican beast and the False Prophet. They are in fact, the same person. Most people use the term Antichrist for what is really the False Prophet. So we usually include the term “Antichrist” along with the False Prophet.
    But there is one big difference with our interpretation. We believe the ten kings are members of the EU / restored Holy Roman Empire and not a world-dominating kingdom. Many people believe that an Antichrist figure will control the entire planet. We believe the ten kings are all part of the European Union who will give their loyalty to the Vatican and the Vatican IS a worldwide empire with churches all over the world. But its political power will come from the 10 nations that give their power to the Vatican beast.
    Many people are looking for ten “regions” created by the world bank, the illuminati or whomever as the 10 “kings” so that their concept of a world power can be justified, but the truth is not so grandiose. The whole world will wonder after the Vatican beast (the pope will perform big miracles. He has been credited with 4 of them already) but they will not be controlled by it, other than the worlds‘ Christians bowing to the will of the pope.
    We don’t see the popular New World Order / Antichrist theory as happening anytime soon, if ever. But our interpretation is very close to completion with only a few small steps left to occur. Steps so small and seemingly iconsequential that we think most of the world will miss them and end up with the mark. The bible says only a small “remnant“ will avoid the mark and we believe that the marked ones will be the ones waiting for an Antichrist to come to world power. In this case the great majority will be on the wrong side and that is a shame.

  383. The false prophet is the Roman Catholic Church and not ISIS though any prophet that slaughters innocents is a false prophet. The Mark of the Beast, the word “mark” in the original greek is the word “Charagma” which is the official Roman stamp on documents, coins and slaves. You have to understand the bloody and violent history of Roman Catholicism. Its just we have been conditioned to forgive the church for being the way they have been. Starting out with Constantine, right away distortions in the teachings of Jesus occured and many were slaughtered if they did not conform to one way or possessed gospels or texts that were not approved. And to kill them the same way Jesus died is blasphemy. That is just common sense. How people not see the church isn’t the false prophet they are blind and not using common sense. The Romans had death camps for pagans. Many pagans died horribly and that was long before the inquisition. Then you have the complete holocaust of the Cathars and the waldens and other sects were persecuted as well. Islam arose with a defensive attitude to fight persecution. So they are an outgrowth. Rome is likely the beast and the Pope is the whore (basically getting money, whoring itself for money etc). The only reason we don’t see the church in the same light that we see Hitler is that Hitler failed in doing what the church succeeded to do. The church actually wiped out all the cathars!! I suggest all christians should study early christianity and awaken themselves. You can still be christians, just do away with the church. Even Galatians contradicts having a church and informs none should be slaves to the laws or dictates of men and only heirs of God. Now Muslim religion is a whole other story and even Muhummad prophesied it would slither like a snake back to Medina and become unpopular. Both are bad. Read the Quran and its basically cult brainwashing. Read the book of Galatians. I go by that now.

    The cathars recognized the Church as the false prophet. And ironically the beef the church had with them was that they condoned suicide and that was considered murder. Yet somehow the church can massacre them all and God would be okay with that, killing God’s children (claiming to speak from him but only going by what is in their own minds—this is in the book of revelation) in the way Jesus died. Ummmm. And the Book of Revelations discusses how to recognize the false prophet and beast and one part it states how they together make martrys out of true believers (these are likely peaceful gnostic sects and the cathars who practiced without needing a church, were anti-materialistic, and very spiritual people). These are the martyrs. Basically, the church worships idolatry, because you end up following the church over God, placing it above God and seeing it as an authority. Not to mention the cross and other symbols that become idols and other remnants of paganism.

    The people of the white robes are likely the Essense. They were known as the “white robes” and they were peaceful people who shunned money and found ways to live without relying on Rome. They were baptizers.

    • Oops, I spelled Essenes wrong. I also agree with the other commenter that part of the second beast has to do with our reliance on governments or infrastructures that give us laws to follow that contradict faith or enslave us. The use of money locks us into these infrastructures. Why none can buy or sell without the mark (the Charagma -mark in original greek which was stamped on money, slaves, and documents).

      Basically the idea of idolatry is anything you worship above God. Which if you obey the laws of state over God you are committing idolatry. You are placing something between you and God. This results in the plagues that occur within nature. As the Book of Revelations states, that because man would not give up idolatry, plagues were created as the work of his hands, minds, and deeds. It is also a reference to our materialism, which is killing the planet and we use our love of money and things to replace God as well.

      If you learn about the Essenes, the Cathars, and other sects, they were anti-materialistic, vegetarians (which they were persecuted for this as the church sought to force people to eat meat to prove they weren’t Cathars/heretics). As for the anti-christ, people think it is one person, but if you go back to the original greek, the idea of one man could refer to the “multitude.” 666 is the number of man. 777 is the number of God in biblical numerology.

      Some people have thought the whore of Babylon is the statue of liberty. Who knows. But basically in revelations you get the message of humans needing to stop being ignorant and destroying the earth. Punishment comes for those who destroy the earth (metaphorically and I imagine literally as well).

    • A new day, a good day, is coming and it’s just around the bend. Christians have been marked by God, so don’t worry. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword, ISIS. Rev. 9:4 and 13:10.

  384. Sam,
    You are certainly on the right track here.
    Something to note here is that in prophecy a beast is always a kingdom and a woman is a church. In Revelation there are two women – in rev12 we read of the true church which included the waldenites and the others you mentioned which were persecuted by the Vatican and fled to the wilderness. Many were wiped out but others (a remnant) survived. The whore is of course the Catholic church, who rides the beast which is the Vatican, a true kingdom since 1929. The False Prophet is the pope who is the “image” of the Vatican, as he is their front man. The False Prophet will perform miracles that will thrill the world. So far this pope has performed four to date and they will get bigger and better in the near future.
    The church will be destroyed before the Second Coming by those who used to follow it and the Vatican and the pope (False Prophet) will be destroyed when Christ returns and puts Satan in chains for 1000 years.
    See if this doesn’t jive perfectly with the bible.

  385. This does make sense to me. The reason being that Islam’s hatred of the Jews and Christianity stems all the way back to Ishmael..actually Cain..when God denied Ishmael the inheritance due a first-born son. They didn’t understand that the son of the promise was to be born Free…not the son of a slave woman…Isaac would eventually lead to the birthing of Christianity..of which its followers are FREE..not SLAVES to sin…the sin at that time of Sarah’s mistrust of waiting upon God to deliver on his word. One can clearly see the twisting of all that is Islamic with parts of the gospel..filled with such hatred towards anything that opposes it..even from within its own ranks. It is perfectly clear to me that the culmination of that hatred fueled by Satan..the original one denied his own greatness for trying to overthrow the throne of God..and kicked out like Ishmael was.. .will come forth in the final battle of Satan against all that God loves..with his own version of the return of Christ..capturing those who belive it to hell..I realize this is WAY more detailed than what is given..just a short version.

    • kathleen

      thank you so much for your thoughts. I agree with you. who else would be more perfect to attack God’s people than the ones who have always, from the beginning, hated them…

  386. The woman always represents a church. The Beautiful woman that John sees, descending from the heavens is the Church of Christ, that is his bride. She is pregnant and ready to give birth. The prophecy continues by describing the old serpent, that is the devil, which awaits the child’s birth.
    The beautiful woman bears a child, a man-child, and retreats to a place that God had prepared for her. She is there for 1260 years.

    In the book of Daniel, A prophecy is given regarding the beasts of the earth, and we are told that each beast represents a kingdom. The 1st beast is Babylon, the 2nd beast is Meda Persia, 3rd is Greece, and the 4th is Rome. But who is the 5th beast? We must continue with revelations to reveal who it is. He is told that the Anti-Christ will reign for a time, times, and half a time, or 3.5 years. Theologians agree, that 1 day in prophecy, is equal to that of 1 year. So, 3.5 years, or 42 months, would equal that of 1260 years.

    The book of Revelations continues by describing the events after the woman (Church) goes into hiding for 1260 years. So, who is the man-child? If the Woman is the Church (Bride of Christ), then the man-child is born from the church. There is only one system of Rule, at the world stage, that satisfies this prophecy. It is the Papacy. According to the bible, Jesus chose to for HIS church to be founded upon the Rock, that is St. Peter.

    18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. MATT 16;18

    There is one Church, that was born from the Church of Peter. The Roman Catholic Church. Now, if we agree that the man-child which was born of the Church is the Papacy. It is quite easy to connect the dots.

    While the Church was in hiding, The Papacy ruled supreme. During the time of her reign, she slaughtered millions of Christians, for she believed that anyone that disagreed with her, failed to revere her, or outright rebelled against her, was evil and thus not of the Church which God ordained to be his bride. She is responsible for the blood of the saints that were shed in the name of God.

    5And she brought forth a man-child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. REV 12; 5,6

    7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. REV 12; 7-12

    13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    Rev 12; 13-17

    7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Rev; 7,8

    The woman (the Church) is persecuted by Satan, the old serpent, that is the devil. This is during the reign of the 1st beast. During this same period, the two witnesses represent England, which took their views of liberty to North America. This historical event was born from the protestant reformation, the desire to live a free life, in a nation that is separated from the church.

    Let us look at history. While Rome reigned supreme from the Time of Christ, the Papacy did not assume power (on the world stage) until 538 AD. On the date of the 12th March 1798,there was a document signed that suppressed all power of the Papacy and that the citizens were now protected under the French arms. This is the french revolution. Thus 538 AD – 1798 was the time period of her reign.

    1798 – 538 = 1260 years.

    Now to explain the 2nd beast of revelations. The Book of revelations describes a 2nd beast, which John saw come from out of the earth with 2 horns. This beast will exercise all the power of the 1st beast (on the world stage) and will give power to the 1st beast, that will make all peoples on earth worship the 1st beast. John sees this beast emerged after the 1st beast is wounded (papacy loses power). There is one nation that split from the Papacy rule, which saw fit to establish a nation that would be separate from Church and state. The United States of America. The Sign of the eagle represents the Nation, the 2 horns of the lamb represents Gospel. For USA’s founding forefathers were the protestant Christians…

    Today, the USA is the most powerful nation in the world, America seeks to establish the TPP(Trans-pacific Partnership) which will consist of 10 nations. These 10 nations are the same as those in the book of Daniel. Kingdoms without a king.

    11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Rev; 13; 11 – 15

    The following paragraph (rev; 8 – 13) describes the beast, where she sits, and the kingdoms that will be players on the world stage.And the ten kings will be of one mind (one world order) and will be with the first beast.

    12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev 17; 12, 13

    The verse 8, describes the papacy rule. Ruled from 538-1798 AD (was)
    wounded (and is not), finally when she gets power from the 2nd beast (shall ascend out of the bottomless pit). The 7 heads(mountains) in verse 9, is the Geographic location of the Vatican for she does sit on 7 mountains. In verse 11, one of the kings is the papacy (And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition).

    8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. 12And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. Rev; 8-13

    These verses describes the fears of many today. The fear of losing the rights stipulated in the constitution, the fear of the construction of Fema camps, the fear of Martial law, economic fears, fear of their own govt. power over the people. when these fears come true, USA will be the image of the 1st beast. For it describes a tyranny government, the very type of government that USA strove to avoid. This tyranny will affect all nations, which is a testament to the power that the USA has.

    Now furthermore, The world trade center, which globally affects the world financially, is also in the USA. But the banking systems in history, were all under the control of the richest Church in the world – the Roman Catholic Church, (early history) that is the Papacy (Vatican). Now we have a Jesuit Pope, and many of the leaders in economics are from a Jesuit background.

    16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev; 16,17,18

    The mark of the beast, the image of the beast, or the number of his name, i believe to be spiritual marks.Throughout the bible, we are told to meditate on the word of God, pray from thine heart, For i will write my laws in their hearts and in their minds and they will know that i am their God and they are my people. Thus, to get the mark of the beast on our foreheads, i believe it to be a spiritual mark.

    In genesis, it is written; 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Gen; 1; 26

    It says that we were made in the image of God. Thus, how do we transform into the image of the beast if we are made in the image of God. My belief is that image, represents Character. Therefore, the image of the beast is to transform into the Character of the Beast. So, what is the Character of the beast?

    4And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev; 13;4-6

    So this is what i believe is the Character of the beast. Now how do we get his Mark. I believe it is through worshipping the Beast. For we receive the Seal of God in our foreheads (Mind), and these are those that have their names written in the book of life. Unfortunately, i have not been given the wisdom to calculate the Number of his name.

    I will close with this. Both the papacy and USA, have the power to make this so. The world seems to be really happy with the new pope. I even hear non-believers claim that this pope “is a real Christian” . Thus, once USA gives power back to the Papacy, we will be forced to worship the beast, or die. This is prophecy. There will come a time in the future when we will have to make a choice. IF you are a bible believing Christian, it is now time to arm yourself with the armor of God. It will only get worse.

    However,
    20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. {THE END.}
    Rev; 22; 20, 21

    God bless you all. All my brothers and sisters in Christ our Lord. May the Lord protect you, and bless you, And guide you in all that is to come. Stay strong in your faith for our Lord comes quickly. Glory be to the most High, Our creator Almighty God. And Glory to our savior, Jesus Christ, our redeemer of sins. Thank you father, in Jesus name. Amen.

    • Just want to clarify a few things.

      I talked about the 2 witnesses, but I forgot to show the verses explaining why i believe it is a representation of the forefathers of the USA.

      The following represents the Gospel (the church) For the Founding Fathers had the testimony of Jesus Christ. (2 wings of a great eagle)

      13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12; 13, 14

      Now the verses about the 2 witnesses.

      1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles:and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

      The Gospel was preserved in England, and the founding fathers took the gospel with them to America. In this way, The testimony of Jesus Christ prevailed against the gates of hell. When W. Tyndale, translated the bible from latin into old English, everyone had the chance to read the word of God. For the RCC did keep the bible away from their flock for nearly 1000 years. the RCC even went so far as to ban anyone from having a bible.

      By image of the beast, this is referring to the USA taking on the image of the Papacy. I talked about our character in my previous comment, but i meant the Character of the USA.

      The Mark of the beast; this i believe you receive through worship. God describes what he says is worship. We worship with our minds. There are many ways in which we worship. Worship of the movie stars, worship of video games, worship of money etc… Those we worship, are those we serve. A servant serves his master. So, who is your master? Thus, we worship the image of the beast through serving it.

      finally, with regard to this: I typed this before but i wanted to add a verse from the bible regarding the Pope which Jesus warned us of.

      I will close with this. Both the papacy and USA, have the power to make this so. The world seems to be really happy with the new pope. I even hear non-believers claim that this pope “is a real Christian” .

      24But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. 25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. 26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
      Luke 6; 24 25, 26

      Thank you all.

  387. Certainly eye opening. Considering world events, I would have to agree.

  388. Mecca is Mystery Babylon.

  389. Dear Friend,

    After experiencing a very traumatic time in my life, the inspiration that kept me going was when I began to read the Bible, chapter by chapter, verse by verse. I listen to a Pastor who has a deep understanding of the symbols referred to throughout the scriptures. He explains the Hebrew and Greek roots of many terms in the “letter from G-d” – the Bible, to all of us.

    My Pastor warns that many Christians will be deceived – even though the New Testament clearly warns that first to return to earth is the fake “instead of” (in the Greek: ‘anti’)christ. This is the generation of the “Fig Tree” referring to Israel’s re-establishment in 1948; Christians will be tested on depth of Bible knowledge and eschatology. Throughout the New Testament, in the books of Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:6 and Luke 21:8, it warns Christians (“maidens in the field”) NOT to be misled in search of Christ whenever someone says that He has returned to earth, but to stay put and continue doing your work in the field. Otherwise, if a Christian follows the false first ‘christ(s)’ unwittingly, then when the true Messiah Jesus Christ does return, He will find that person is no longer a spiritually virgin bride. Matthew 24:23-24 “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive even the elect.”

    In Revelation, the last book of the Bible, the “Mark of the Beast” is mentioned (Rev. 13). The “Beast out of the Sea” symbolises political organisations / governments. And the one “out of the Earth” refers to military capacity and technology. The B. out of the Sea has “ten horns” (could it be the G-8 rich nations + China & India next to join the club); “a mouth like a lion” (symbolic of the United States and Britain jointly), “body like a leopard” (France), “feet like a bear” (Russia), and the “dragon gave it power and authority” (China) – the United Nations’ Security Council permanent members? The U.N. represents the highest aspirations of wo-mankind, and in my past naive idealism I had wanted to work there. Now, it seems to me that the negotiations, or rather, politics behind-the-scenes at the U.N. is often about stronger nations bullying smaller countries. The Security Council deploys and directs its own military troops. These U.N. troops are only accountable (strategically, tactically and operationally) to the Security Council, not the sovereign nation-states that they patrol or occupy.

    The B. out of the Earth symbolises military ‘intelligence’, particularly since the military is always on the cutting edge of technology. For instance, you must already know that the internet was initially developed by the U.S. military’s Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) back in the 1960’s Cold War days when Americans were fearful of an ICBMissile attack by the Soviets; so DARPA developed the internet as a coast-to-coast first alert information sharing network. DARPA’s Information Awareness Office focused on research in information technologies used for surveillance of populations.

    It says in Rev. 13:13-14 that “miraculous signs and fire will come from the heaven to deceive men.” Not too difficult to accomplish considering all the technology that the Dept. of Defense, the Pentagon, Los Alamos Lab, North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), NASA, and the National Security Administration (NSA) must have… Even without taking into account the capabilities of other advanced industrialised countries, it would be quite easy to put on a satellite magick show to awe and amaze technologically unsophisticated folks. HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program) in Alaska managed by DARPA, the U.S. Navy and others, was designed to “understand, simulate and control ionospheric processes that might alter the performance of communication and surveillance systems.” Climate modification and the ability to trigger earthquakes was tested at HAARP, and some worry this may lead to “weaponized weather” (i.e. Fukushima earthquake and tsunami causing nuclear plant meltdown).

    “Rich or poor, free or slave, cannot buy or sell without the mark in his forehead or on his right hand” (Rev. 13: 16-17). “Forehead” is symbolic of our thoughts/ideas, while “right hand” refers to work. In the upcoming ‘cashless society’ where our currencies are fully digitalized, central banks and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) will control when and IF people can access their own money. We will all be “chipped” inevitably, since smart dust/powder nanochips with RFID micro-sensors are able to infiltrate our bodies due to their incredibly tiny size (the width of a bacteria cell).

    The speculation is that the Beast out of the Sea (of peoples, multitudes, nations and languages – Rev. 17:15) is the Roman Catholic Church. Remembering the Sabbath and keeping this day holy is one of G-d’s ten commandments. Saturday is the Sabbath – the seventh day of rest – according to Bible scriptures. How did this switch occur? About 321 A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine, a pagan sun-worshiper who converted to Christianity, issued the first decree declaring Sunday to be the legal day of rest. Then about 336 A.D., the Vatican officially changed Sabbath observance to Sundays for political and economic reasons. Worshiping on the corrupted Sunday Sabbath is tantamount to a symbolic acceptance of a mark (belief) “in our forehead”, while not working (as symbolised by the “right hand”) on Sunday, the first day of the week. Still, our true Sabbath rest is in Jesus Christ: “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

    Man’s number: 666 sounds like “sex, sex, sex” – referring to today’s ever more prevalent immoral and sinful sexual acts, transgressions, and perversities (Leviticus 20:13, 1 Thessalonians 4:3-7). In the Book of Revelation, the 6th seal, with the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl judgments befalls earth during the upcoming 5 month (Rev. 9:5) Tribulation Period. Our lord Jesus Christ will only return during the 7th trumpet. The antichrist world leader will come to power in a prosperous and peaceful way (Daniel 11:21-11:24). If a person willingly worships antichrist/ satan the destroyer, then s/he breaks the first of the Ten Commandments, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7)

    Each person will be required to choose:

    1. Get the mark of the beast – You will be worshiping the beast (satan) claiming to be G-d. You will be able to buy and sell. You can keep your job and your house. But you will receive the full wrath of G-d, poured out without mercy.

    2. REFUSE the mark of the beast – You will not be buying or selling with marked money, but will need to barter, buy with precious metals, or pay using private decentralised digital cryptocurrencies. You could lose your job, your house and perhaps even your life. G-d will have mercy on you if you believe in Him and worship Him, and you will live again in everlasting glory… ethereal sentient eternally love-kissed delightful creative wondrous expansive imagination consciousness

    The New World Order beast system is a technology-enabled worldwide brain’s circuit-like neural network which will ensnare as many people as possible. The “Internet of Things”(IoT) is a disturbing but increasingly accepted idea that every object in our lives is to be connected to the electrical grid, and all of our data is to be stored in the “cloud” (actually, huge data centers housing supercomputers around our planet). This trend goes hand-in-hand with the push toward trans-humanism for example: genetic DNA editing, cryonics, designer babies, bionic augmentation, artificial intelligence/AI. Supercomputers overtaking human intelligence has already begun, with the ultimate NWO goal of humans merging with machine into a technological “singularity” (by 2045 as promoted by Google’s Ray Kurzweil). Will we blindly accept being plugged in to a Star Trek style borg hive-minded dystopian control system – allowing our thoughts and consciousness to be uploaded and connected to the artificial synapses of a centralised worldwide webbed database “mind”? https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/apr/19/facebook-mind-reading-technology-f8
    The goal of the wicked rulers and power brokers pushing for a globalist New World Order despotic agenda: to have a two-class feudal system in which the underclass are forced to live as slaves in enclosed cities, while the “elite” will enjoy the land of the earth, become god-like aided by embedded technologies and robotics, live eternal lives and travel the cosmos. This is the promise given to the satan-worshiping inner members trying to gain world domination, and it is the endgame of the influential and secretive Bilderberg group of global power players and others (e.g. Skull and Bones secret society at Yale, infamous Bohemian Grove rituals where powerful men meet secretly each summer in the redwood forests of northern California). They have worked for generations to build the beast system in order to force humanity to worship satan.

    Why do we believe in the hoax of “royal” lineage of some European families? They have the audacity to claim that they are descendants of Jesus! Merovingian bloodline and Anglo/British Israelism is a false doctrine and mistaken belief. The House of Windsor [actually from the Germanic “House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha” before their name change to “Windsor” in 1917] does not come from the Davidic line (no way!) of the royal Jewish lineage of King David מלכות בית דוד from which Jesus our Messiah descended. Jesus NEVER had children. There is no historical, biblical, apocryphal, archaeological, genealogical, or genetic evidence which supports the Jesus bloodline lie. Recently, Harvard University’s researchers sparked debate over a 1,600-year-old papyrus fragment referring to Jesus’ so-called “wife”. Don’t be fooled. The ‘Merovingians’ are extensively featured in the book The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail, which is based on a hoax originating from Pierre Plantard in the 1960s. This lie has also been popularised by corrupting Hollywood movies such as the “The DaVinci Code.”

    Revelation 17 & 18 are about 3 cities in current times referred to as harlots or whores: A “great harlot who sits upon many waters…the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.” (not Rome) San Francisco –the gay mecca– gets stranger all the time; the Gay Pride parades are more extreme with each successive year (even to a progressive bleeding heart like me). I have gay friends and family, but give me a break, coming “out” is totally different from the IN YOUR FACE circus-like contortions and promiscuity flaunted during Gay Pride week. The second city is in the desert: “Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and of the Abominations of the Earth…a harlot sitting on a scarlet beast covered with blasphemous names”: the corrupting influences and ideas put out by Hollywood. The third place is modern-day Babylon (not in Iraq). Consider all those neat programming languages that ‘babble-on’: COBOL, Erlang, Perl, SQL, C++, Go, Java, Python, HTML…. Silicon Valley is the modern-day Babylon. Ultimately, where will artificial intelligence and nanotechnology lead us – a robotic dystopia?

    California is it…. likely within our lifetime, we will see “merchants wailing at the sight of the downfall of all the luxuries that it once held” (Rev. 18:7-18:19). After all, everyone living there knows that it’s only a matter of time… who can predict when the next Big One earthquake will rock & roll everything away? “Come out of her, my people, so you will not take part in her sins, so you will not receive any of her plagues.” (Rev. 18:4)

    Then there’s the widespread belief in the false “rapture” doctrine. “Rapture” is NEVER mentioned anywhere in the Bible. No one is flying up into the sky to meet the Savior. This false teaching was popularised by John Darby in the 1830s. Before the 19th century, a Pre-Tribulation Rapture had not been mentioned in any Christian writings. This false teaching purports that Christ will come back to earth in two phases. First He will return to secretly “rapture” His church away, ascending from the world so Christians can escape the upcoming Tribulation at the end of our current earth age. Then (anti)Christ returns in a visible advent to dispense his wrath on the world’s nations. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is often cited as describing the “rapture”, but this is a dangerous misreading of the New Testament. Many good but misinformed Christian folks truly, deeply believe the Christian pop culture books such as The Late, Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey, and movies like the “Left Behind” series about an easy-way-out of troubled times escape. G-d needs soldiers in the upcoming 5 month Tribulation spiritual battle, not runaway fly-aways.

    So please be forewarned dear brother, sister of mine. Know that antichrist comes first. Antichrist/Lucifer/ Abaddon/Apollyon/Diabolos/Iblis/Belial/Ba’al/Samael/Mahdi/Moshiach/Alien World Teacher…. will be an extremely powerful and charismatic spiritual-political leader, deceptively pronouncing that he is the savior and promising to bring justice, sharing and peace to earth (yeah, sure), and claiming that he’ll “save” and rapture the souls of all those who follow him. Unfortunately, many fooled believers will be tricked into worshiping him, or will follow him after he takes his illegitimate throne on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. He’ll have supernatural powers controlling technology, military coalitions, and be a powerful influence in world affairs; amazing folks with his “wonders”. This decadent earth is ripe for satan-the-destroyer’s pickings.

    If satan has had the ability to surprise and astonish… imagine how much infinitely greater will be our amazement at the glory of G-d our creator and all the unknown, unexpected aspects of our eternal unfading inheritance. Our true creator The King of kings and Lord of lords won’t return for perhaps a few more generations, until after the upcoming 5 month trial period (Rev. 9:5). Let’s continue to keep our strong faith, for there is tremendous hope and grace for us. Have great confidence in knowing Revelation’s message of Jesus’ victory and the wondrous blessings that await the faithful in G-d.

    May G-d bless you and your family forever! May you be blessed with food, drink and rest for your body, and hope, laughter and love for your soul ~ Shalom

    Micro RFID nanochip smartdust or smartpowder with embedded antenna
    http://www.newsweek.com/nano-chipnanochips7nm-chipnanotechnologymacbookiphone-6ibmmoore039s-law-602458

    The Information Awareness Office (IAO) of the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
    worked on surveillance and information technology to track and monitor suspects (January 2002)

    U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved (in 2012) an ingestible digital sensor pill that tracks the health of patients who are not taking their medication regularly. This Ingestion Event Marker (IEM) was first approved in Europe in 2010.

    Totalitarian New World Order global governance

    What are the main beliefs of satanists/luciferians?
    1. Self-preservation, self-indulgence and self-worship
    2. Moral relativism: there is no universal nor objective right vs. wrong.
    Ethical behavior changes with social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances.
    3. Social Darwinism
    4. Eugenics

    Luciferian doctrine/philosophy rejects accountability for sin and denies Jesus Christ as G-d, while purporting to offer exclusive knowledge for attaining god-like immortality (by our own will and intellect)
    http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-denver-international-airport/

    http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/analysis-of-the-occult-symbols-found-on-the-bank-of-america-murals/

    Age of Deceit: New Age Aliens and the New World Order https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjmFm8PIz8M

    IBM delivers a piece of its brain-inspired supercomputer to Livermore national lab

    Let us pray that
    With our steadfast faith, positivity and creativity, we shall overcome

    the power-grubbing globalists / kill-uminanti / luciferians’ despotic NWO beast system.

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