Visions of Deceased Loved Ones
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Can a departed loved one appear to someone left behind in a vision?
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Dreams are common among those grieving for a lost loved one. We have dreams while we sleep.
But is a vision of them possible, in which they appear for a moment in time to comfort the grieving one?
A vision occurs while one is awake, although there is such a thing as a night vision.
Gen 46:2 And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night, and said, Jacob, Jacob. And he said, Here [am] I.
Job 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it [was] diverse from all the beasts that [were] before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him…
I am not aware of anything in the bible where a departed loved one would return to visit someone with a message or bring comfort.
Mankind was visited by spirits, such as angels.
There was one account after the resurrection, that the deceased saints rose from the dead and walked around the town. I am not sure how long this lasted.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Modern day psychics and mediums “call upon the dead” which I consider just bringing up demonic counterfeits of the deceased.
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But can real loved ones, as spirits, return to give a final message to one still alive in this world?
2 examples:
1. I recently experienced a friends’ death back around Thanksgiving time (November, 2009). Her 25 year old cerebral palsy disabled son just told me (February, 2010) that he had been crying for his mother, and asking God to help him, because he missed his mother.
At some point, the room became dark, and his mother appeared in glorious apparel. She then “read a letter” to him to comfort him, and tell him that she had to die, and leave him behind, so that he would learn to do things on his own.
She also advised him to return to a certain church campground where he had been before, where yearly revivals took place. He said when the vision was finished, he felt a tremendous peace.
2. When I was younger, and still living with my parents, my grandmother died. My mother had fallen asleep in the living room on the sofa. She awoke to see a figure in the hallway, dressed in a white nightgown. She ignored it because she thought it was me, up for some reason.
The figure went over to one of the pictures in the hallway and pointed to it. It then walked off.
She fell back asleep, until awakened by a phone call from my grandfather. My grandmother had gotten up in the middle of the night, fallen, and died.
When my mother went home to the funeral, she found money behind the picture frame in my grandmother’s hallway, just as the dream/vision indicated. My parents were able to buy a new car that they needed with the money.
Traditional thinking over the centuries has allowed room for certain rare experiences, since there is some biblical basis for them:
1. Jesus can appear to us (good), since Jesus appeared to his followers after the resurrection
2. the devil or one of his demons can appear (not good), since the devil appeared to Jesus to tempt him. The devil also appeared to Eve.
3. an angel can appear to us (good), since angels have been recorded many times bringing messages to humans.
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So, now, with the permission of God, can a loved one appear to us?
What do you think?
I do not propose a conclusive answer. I just present this for further thought.
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Here are some links about this for further reading:
http://www.rense.com/general7/goodbye.htm
http://www.care-givers.com/DBArticles/pages/viewarticle.php?id=137
http://paranormal.about.com/b/2010/02/06/reader-report-deathbed-vision.htm
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=25516
http://health.discovery.com/centers/sleepdreams/expedition/dispatch19.html
http://www.dreamvisions.info/dreamwork/active-dreaming/dreaming-with-the-departed-bybs
http://www.near-death.com/deathbed.html
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Visions of Deceased Loved Ones « Heaven Awaits said this on February 25, 2010 at 1:51 pm |
I would like to share some thing 26 years ago my father in law which really wasn’t good to me thy raised me when my mother died lived two homes from us he never came over to my house i always want to theirs he kept coming over for about three weeks sat in this recliner that i had then just stopped coming then he past away i was wondering if he was trying to tell me some thing but i don’t know every night after his death i keep waking up two three times a night i just want back to sleep one night i couldn’t so i want out of my room saw some thing in the chair were he always seat i marked it of as being half a sleep but i keep getting woke and keep seeing that then i seen the hole person it was him just as if he never left i removed that chair through it away and never saw him again
The body dies … the soul knows not death.
An angel of the Lord would never take the form of a loved one who has passed away for this would cause confusion to mankind.
But an evil spirit would certainly take the form of a loved one. first to gain trust and then would be able to decieve you.
For evil spirits roam this earth and they have all the information that is required about your loved one, and through this way he would make you mentally disturbed. So, never seek to converse with any manifestation for you would truely be deceived.
I did not seek to converse with my husband who died. But two hours after his death, I was walking down my hall at home, and his spirit walked through me, walking fast. He was demonstrating to me that now he could walk. He had not been able to walk for several years.
He also made me feel how young and healthy he was, and happy. He did not say anything. That was a singular experience, not repeated, but important to me.
A similar thing happened with my father. At the time of his cremation, several days after his death, I was in the kitchen at home. He seemed to come and put his hands on my back, to let me feel that he was now well. Then he left, and never returned. That was 26 years ago.
This was important concerning my father, because he had returned to voiced faith just before death and I was the only witness.
My husband was a Christian who had faith at the end, so I did not need his visit, but we were so close, and I so alone after his death, that I needed to know he was well and with God. We had been isolated from most people since we had returned to Christ.
I still mourn him and long to be reunited in Heaven.
What chapter in the bible shud i read if something was to happen?
dear kaykay
I am not sure what your question means, but if you were to encounter any spirit, I would first pray and ask that its true nature be made known to you.
If it is something from God, to give you comfort in a time of sorrow, then ok. But if it is something that has moved in to take advantage of you during a time of sorrow, then God will show you that.
I know that the traditional hard line heresy hunter approach might be to say that all such things are evil spirits impersonating etc. I think that it is possible for a visitation, although we should always be careful to be sure. In the first example you gave, it would seem to me that was the real deal, as an evil spirit would most likely not give advise to go to a church campground. Also, we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. Perhaps from time to time, especially after a death, a visitation might be allowed. My mom just passed away and I had lights coming on in the house and she appeared in a dream in which she thanked me for caring for her…seemed like a good thing. After my wife’s father died, it seemed like something moved and we felt like he was there at one time, as if to say he was ok. In the final analysis, I would say that we should be careful, but these things can happen.
No these things cannot happen you said, well you are wrough for faith in Christ is believing that are love ones are with Jesus.
It is a proven fact that these appearances have been happening from the beginning. Samuel was called up by the witch of Endor., if it was actually Samuel is debatable. so if you have this happen and have to ask if this is from god i would lean toward it coming from the camp of the enemy for sure .remember the devil comes as an angel of light.
NO THE DEAD CANNOT APPEAR BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT ALIVE AS SPIRITS IN THE SPIRIT WORLD. THEY ARE TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS IN THE GRAVE WIPED OUT OF EXISTENCE AND NO LONGER EXIST. THEY ONLY WAY THEY CAN APPEAR TO US IS IF THEY ARE RAISED IN BODY FROM THE GRAVE. JESUS SAID A TIME WILL COME WHEN THOSE IN THE GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE AND WILL COME FORTH TO RESURRECTION. THE APOSTLES SAID IF THERE IS NO RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD THOSE WHO HAVE DIED HAVE PERISHED. THE DEAD ARE NOT ALIVE AS SPIRITS AND CANNOT APPEAR TO US. DREAMS OF THE DEAD CAN BE FROM EVIL SPIRITS OR FROM OUR OWN MIND.
I believe that the Bible substantiates the position which Joanna has stated, that the dead are not alive. They have no consciousness until the future resurrections. . Job 7:10 states that a dead person “shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more”
Therefore any “visits” people receive from their loved ones must be from deceiving spirits. The Bible speaks of “familiar spirits” which counterfeit the dead. The lady of Endor had such a spirit which counterfeited Samuel.
False. the martyred souls call out to god to be avenged and are not TOTALLY UNCONSCIOUS REV 6 vs. 10 and 1 Samuel 28 vs. 11 – 19 the bible states clearly that Samuel was raised, seen , talked to and prophesied to Saul. and to say the dead no longer exist is crazy , the rich man and Lazarus are another example in Luke 16 vs 19 – 31. Paul states to be absent with the body is to be present with the lord. 2 Corinthians 5 vs. 8 also Jesus came in the flesh to Abraham and ate physical food prepared for him while 2 angles destroyed Sodom. Genesis ch 18. After the physical body dies the soul and spirit live on until the second death which is the great white throne judgment Rev 20 vs. 11 – 15. Now my personal opinion is people are seeing demons. Just my opinion though.
Jesus also spoke with Mose and Elijah.
God is a god of the living and not the dead as he said in antother place.
I hope i don’t sound harsh but i think any scripture quoted should always be backed up with chapter and versus and then we can debate from there.
Yes with the permission of god a deceased loved one can appear to a living loved one . because all things are possible with god. except he will not bypass the guidelines he established .
some people have gifts that they can see the unknown.my mother came back to me.my father came back to see my mother before she passed over.If a person don’t experience anything they want understand.God Bless
Yes i understand what is happening family members are appearing to relatives but the question is weather or not is what we are seeing is actually family members and not spirits ( demons ). i have to say with absolutely certainty they are not our family members. simply because if a family member could appear they would ( because i know i would want too ) give some enlightenment to my family member, not just to appear and not offer any spiritual insight but to make an impact on their life. not cause confusion Satan is the author of confusion. remember the rich man wanted to return to warn his family but Jesus stated even if Moses came back they still would not believe. also anytime god appeared to some one it was a complete life changing event. with no question in their heart or mind.
very reletive and interesting subject for me.i see all kinds of things in the night and never know whats going on
Hi andy
what do you see at night? I hope nothing bad…..
Is it a belief in the Jewish culture that when a person dies they may wander for three days close to the body and/or loved ones? Is this one reason Jesus was in the grave three days, to give no doubt to the Jews that it was past the time to re-enter the body? Same with the miracle of Lazarus, wasn’t it four days? Just asking.
The evening after my brother’s funeral, my son, who is deaf and very sensative to the spiritual, saw, in the presence of myself and my family, my brother in the spirit outside the window and behind me sitting on the sofa. I went to my son’s side and asked him Do you still see him, but I was too scared to really focus and look for him. My son said yes, he had a white robe and he had a light aura around him and he was floating and he was young and he was happy and he was waving.
I am the one who took care of my brother for six months before he departed this earth.
Once when I was married (around December 2001), I had a dream of my mother’s funeral. During my mother’s life, she lived a Christian life. In the dream, all of her children were walking past her for the last time while she laid in the casket. I was the last one to walk by her. As I walked by, she reached and grabbed my hand, she with her eyes still closed she to me “Son, when you get off of work, go straight home, don’t stop nowhere, go straight home”. During that time in my life, I was committing adultery with a lady from my job. The street where she lived was in the path of my home traveling route from work. I would do a “Pit Stop”, then continue to travel home, where there was….you guessed it….CHAOS! My ex-wife was pregnant with our son at that time. He was born without a limb…I wonder why? You guessed it again…the sins of the father. But I thank God for His Mercy and His Grace.
About 15 years ago, I was a Sunday School teacher for the 9-11 year-olds at my Synagogue. One day we had a guest speaker visit. When she prayed, all kinds of phenomenon took place. People were falling down when she prayed for them. A very meek, timid boy in my class was prayed for. As he & I walked out of the service, he confided in me that when he received prayer, he had a vision. He saw his Grandfather in Heaven. I believed him because this boy was not the kind of kid who drew attention to himself. If someone dies in faith, they become a part of the cloud of witnesses that surrounds us & is cheering us on. I would have a problem if an un-believing deceased person showed up, however!
i hope this scripture will help JOB ch 7 vs. 9 and 10 i will read from a new living translation,ill start with vs 9. just as a cloud dissipates and vanishes, those who die will not come back. vs. 10 they are gone forever from their home – never to be seen again
1) Jesus said John the Baptist was Elijah. 2) Samuel the prophet made a guest appearance after dying. 3) Both Elijah & Moses were seen by Peter, James & John LONG after their death. 4) The graves opend & the dead walked around when Jesus died.
Scripture says let everything be confirmed with 2 or 3 witnesses. Here are 4, so I believe Scripture has made the point that it can happen.
I was very disturbed after my mother’s death, and I had felt all my life that she did not really love me, and one night I felt so alone and desolate, than went to bed. In a dream/vision that night, I saw my mother way way distant in some valley with mountain ranges, and I had a zoom in “eagle” vision and saw her many miles away. She turned and saw me, and I knew she was coming towards me. I stood on a high cliff overlooking this beautiful valley. I saw her getting close, and I looked down and saw her making her way toward me. I could see stone rocks that she was trying to climb up to me…but she could only come up halfway, and she was soooo exhausted and sat down on one outcropping. I stepped a few steps and got to her…and she could not speak to me, but she HUGGED me and I then felt my mother’s love or the LOVE of the Lord comforting me, and it gave me the peace I needed about my mother. I felt that she wished she had loved me in this earthly life…and then the dream ended. I don’t know if it was really my mother, but I belive she might have been “Allowed” to somehow let me know she did love me. I believe this because she could not speak to me, only hug me. I feel that an evil spirit would have tried to speak and trick me, etc. Just my opinion. Reincarnation, or the theory of it, is nothing but demons hopping from one dead person to another, and they have the memories of all the “souls” they hop into …we have to be very careful in this area, if dead relatives come and try to talk to you and tell you things. Normally, I would say they could not do it.
I have had that happen twice in dreams. The first was my deceased grandfather and the second was my neighbor who passed away a year earlier. Both times they gave the message that they were okay and to tell family they loved them. These visitations were not sought after. They were only one-time events. I do personally believe God allows this but only on his terms. Where we get into trouble is when we seek to contact the dead on our own apart from God. For example, these shows that show some supposed psychic trying to contact the dead are very dangerous in my opinion. My opinion is that if it is from God, it is not sought after and it is usually a one-time event with the purpose of giving reassurance or some kind of closure.
My mum passed away one and half year ago. She was bedridden in her final months. Weeks after her passing I saw her in my dream able to stand and walk like a healthy person. I was much consoled by the dream.
My mother died 3 years ago. She came to me in my dreams on a few occasions. In the first one she came over to me and grabbed my hands (I noticed how warm they were…at the funeral, I had commented on how cold her hands were), then she smiled and said twice “I am alive and well”. My mother died at age 80. In the dreams she had brown hair, always wore a white gown and looked around 40ish. I had another dream a few nights ago. She didn’t say anything, she just let me lay my head on her shoulder and sleep. My sister was also in the dream, she was behind my mother. My sister has special needs and is currently living with me. I bring that up because I thought it was interesting that she was there with my mother and that my mom let me put my head on her shoulder and sleep…It has been exhausting caring for my sister in addition to my 2 sons who also have special needs….anyway, that was pretty neat how she came back to give me “rest”.
I have been waiting/hoping to see my dad…He died Feb 5th of this year…so far I have only seen my mom. I get the same feeling that God is allowing this contact and on His terms. Thank you God!
http://cornishevangelist.wordpress.com/
You will be blessed with this Prophecy on my site. From Billy.
If Paul is correct in saying that “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord”, the spirit lives immediately after death, and the Christian deceased are with the Lord, and conscious.
King David said of his deceased baby that the child could not come to him, but he would go to the child. Now this can be interpreted to mean that eventually he will go to the child, after resurrection. It
also seems to mean, however, that he would go, in death, to where the
child is.
I am very against seances and attempts to bring back the dead, and have been so for many years. So when I felt the presence of my father and of my husband, I felt God had sent them, as someone said here, “on HIS terms”. I would never violate God’s will on this. I
refrain from trying to talk to my husband, even though he was my only close Christian friend at the end. I do ask God to send my husband
messages, however, saying I love him, and that I am trying as hard as I can to hold up under these awful circumstances of reduced income,
ill health of my own, rejection by my son, etc.
If a dream or vision warms the heart, encouraging a person in truth and innocent living it would be from God, as Jesus said satan will not divide his house. The wisest Christian teachers have all said that the boundaries of nature and spirit were set by God for a reason and we were not to whine and beg to cross it. BUT also that God directs visions, messages, and dreams (often at early dawn) as medicines…to correct those misled and hurting…messed up by the devil here in time and space! The Holy Spirit gives discernment. For those scandalized that God loves His children enough to do almost anything to save them, shame on you for limiting His love and power. People cling unreasonably to what they were taught as children and may need guidance not available in their surroundings. Many a conversion to Christianity began with a dream, often of a loved relative with encouraging words. Or a faltering faith may be strengthened. Often we may dream that a admired person is not trustworthy, etc. In every way “Thy rod and Thy staff. they comfort me.”
You seem to be a person of integrity … I enjoy reading your comments.
I love the way you have associated ‘dream and vision’ with ‘rod and staff’ of God.
God didn’t write the Bible. Jesus didn’t write the bible. Therefore it is to be considered somewhat like a game of telephone. I have as much faith as anyone, but I also believe that the spirits of loved ones go to heaven to be with the Lord. It is what I was taught as a Catholic child. When Jesus was resurrected, he opened the gates of Heaven for all of his followers.
G-D DID write the Bible! Who do you think the Holy Spirit is?
Professional mediums do not call upon the dead Marianne and if you were a medium you would then know that. When a person goes to see a professional Christian medium they first pray to God for help and then prepare themselves to be blessed.
The medium never knows who will come. They don’t know whether Christ, guardian angels or the loved ones of the person that as visited the grieving person. Often our deceased loved ones also become our guardian angels as well.
There is a big difference between a vision and the Spirit of a person arriving to talk to you. Like the morning that Mother Teresa was standing before me when I woke up and she asked what she could do for me to help me.
Just as there is a big difference between my heavenly Father giving me a vision and then giving me a message to explain the vision that he has given.
The Christian Spiritualist Church consists of committed Christians don’t ever forget that. They also work hand in hand with Christ. Mary Magdalene was also a medium, clairvoyant, clairsentient and clairaudient.
There is a lovely Gospel of Mary where she talks to Christ about how this is made possible. Also in the NT it speaks of the spiritual gifts that we are given.
The bible is full of seers and the word clairvoyant is the modern word for seer. All true prophets are mediums, they are mediums for God.
There is no such thing as a “professional Christian medium.” Mediums engage in sorcery, and this is biblically forbidden.
There are true and false prophets….the false ones are NOT sent by God, irregardless how well they “perform.”
G-d says that to consult a medium is detestable! There is no such thing as a “christian Medium”, for what each title represents contradicts the other.
You have been deceived and now we know why you say the things that you do.
You will need to repent/turn away from what is clearly detestable to G-d as so stated within the scriptures. Your soul is in danger-you would know this if you weren’t deceived by the “spirits”/demons that you have conjured.
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“‘Do not turn yourselves to the spirit mediums, and do not consult professional foretellers of events, so as to become unclean by them. I am Jehovah YOUR God.” – Leviticus 19:31
” When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, OR WHO IS A MEDIUM OR SPIRITUALIST or who consults the dead.
ANYONE WHO DOES THESE THINGS IS DETESTABLE TO THE LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination….”
Deuteronomy 18:9-15
*and no, mary was NOT a medium or clairvoyant etc etc
The role of the Church medium is to prove life after death because it is the will of God for them to do so. In other words the people go to them for evidence. Just like the Apostles went to Mary to see Christ.
The people are given evidence because the medium passes on what the spirit of their loved ones says. If the client is smart they don’t tell the medium anything, in this way what the medium says can be proven to be true because they tell people things that only the person and the deceased person know. This then proves life after death. Those that embrace life after death do not suffer in bereavement in the same way as those that live in earthly attachment. And Christ taught people detachment.
Reiki is in the bible and it is an excellent way to open people up to their natural God given spiritual gifts that everyone holds inside.
The more that people heal themselves the more that they ascend through the heavens. However, those that are anchored to the bible/books don’t ascend anywhere. Those people are called ‘Dead’ in the bible because they are spiritually dead because they are not living spiritually or walking the SPIRITUAL path home to God.
How else do I say this? You are so full of crap it is DETESTABLE!
Dead people are DEAD. The medium is only consulting with Demons who are familiar spirits and can tell you anything you wanna here. If the medium does not realize that she/he is talking to a demon then he/she is an idiot!
You are playing with fire and will most assuredly BURN in that FIRE if you don’t quickly get out of that mess!
Yes, DEAD PEOPLE ARE DEAD!
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “Whatsoever your hand findeth to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither you goest.”
Job 14:12 “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”
Psalms 13:3 “Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;”
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”
Daniel 12:2 “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
(Wait a second, the only way someone could awake to everlasting life, is if they were a believer in Christ.)
Then Christ Himself states;
John 5:28-29 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the RESURRECTION of life; and they that have done evil, unto the RESURRECTION of damnation.”
John 6:39 “And this is the Father’s will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:40 “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
John 6:44 “No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
Martha was undoubtedly taught by Yeshua as to what would happen and how, and she confirms this with her comment, John 11:24 “Martha saith unto him, I know that HE SHALL RISE AGAIN IN THE RESURRECTION AT THE LAST DAY.”
This last one here is especially notable, For Yeshua is specifically referring to those who believe after His earthly death.
John 6:54 “Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, has eternal life; and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY.”
After Yeshua had ascended to God the Father, the same mind set was maintained by the Apostle Paul, as well as all the other Apostles.
Acts 24:15 “And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD, both of the JUST and unjust.“
1 Corinthians 15: 20-24 “20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the RESURRECTION of the DEAD. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all SHALL be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s AT HIS COMING.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Philippians 3:20-21 “20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly WAIT for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who WILL transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.” ( Why would we have to eagerly wait for Yeshua to return, if we go to Him when we die? Because that is the only time in the Bible that God’s word tells us that our body will be glorified, when Christ returns.)
Colossians 3:3-4 “3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life APPEARS, THEN you also will appear with Him in glory.
(Again,if we go to heaven when we die, I guess we are not glorified while we are in heaven, because that will only happen when Yeshua returns.)
1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 “19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even you in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ AT HIS COMING? 20 For you are our glory and joy.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 “13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him THOSE WHO SLEEP in Jesus. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD IN Christ SHALL RISE first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
( If we simply go to heaven when we die being believers, why didn’t Paul just say that? Why all of this resurrection stuff?)
1 Thessalonians 5:23 “23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (I guess we can get into heaven and be blameless, “BEFORE” the coming of Yeshua too?)
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 “1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our GATHERING TOGETHER to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.”
(We are Yeshua’s Bride. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Paul doesn’t say a thing about the other half of the Bride already being in heaven? Here we clearly gather together in unity as the Bride.)
1 Timothy 6:14 “14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing,
2 Timothy 4:1 “1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His APPEARING and His kingdom:”
Titus 2:12-14 “12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.” (Looks like we are only REDEEMED when Christ RETURNS too.)
Hebrews 9:27-28 ” 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a SECOND TIME, apart from sin, for SALVATION.” (why do I need Yeshua to appear a second time for salvation, if I’m already in heaven?)
1 John 2:28 “28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.” (Hmmm, maybe if I die before Jesus returns, and I’ll be in heaven already, I won’t have to worry about being ashamed at His coming?)
1 John 3:2 “2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we SHALL be, but we know that when He IS REVEALED, we SHALL be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.”
EMPHASIS MINE IN ALL OF THE ABOVE.
Seriously people, be careful. Cause satan is the master of deception.
Further, lets look at some of the original Greek text.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 KJV.
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant , brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP , that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again , even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God BRING with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP . 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall RISE first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Keeping within the context of what the purpose, and intent to comfort those Thessalonians was, if we were to go to heaven when we died, why didn’t Paul simply say that?
What better comfort could he possibly offer to them but to reveal to them that your friends that you have sorrow for, are already there!
He would have used the word ANABINO, (Strong’s # 305, to go up, to rise, mount, be borne up, spring up.) somewhere in these verses, IF WE WENT TO HEAVEN as were used in John 20:17. “17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”
Instead he utilized “sleep”, KOIMAO, (Strong’s # 2837, to cause to sleep, put to sleep, to still, calm, quiet to fall asleep, to sleep to die.) “dead”, NEKROS, (Strong’s # 3498, one that has breathed his last, lifeless, deceased, departed.) “rise” ANISTEMI, (Strong’s # 450, to cause to rise up, raise up from laying down, to raise up from the dead, cause to be born, cause to appear.) “bring” AGO, ( Strong’s # 71, to lead, take with one to lead by laying a hold of, and this way to bring to the point of destination.)
I believe that these verses are in actuality, the most descriptive account that we have in the Bible of what will take place during the rapture, and should be taken literally. Again, if we were to ascend, and be with Christ in heaven when we die, why wouldn’t Paul have said so? Also, if that indeed is the case, then these verses simply make no sense whatsoever, and are in essence, describing a false event.
Buck
So do you think if someone has a vision of a departed loved one, that it is a false vision?
Hi Marianne,
Well, all that I did was quote the Bible and God’s word above. Clearly no one on the planet has all the answers.
There is the aspect of Jewish belief regarding the 3 day time frame, however I don’t remember any of the specificity associated to it. I will have to check into it.
I just think that the Word makes it quite clear as to what will transpire in the future, and where we go when we die.
And because of this confusion regarding this subject, it opens up the door for satan to infiltrate and deceive many people. Even the secular population believe that they go to heaven when they die.
Any comment I would make regarding your question, would merely be an assumption or speculation on my part. (God is far bigger than my personal box of understanding.) However, with that in mind, I will say that if we truly regard scripture as being factual and true, it appears to be highly unlikely.
There is one way to find out! LOL
Speaking of, many people claim to have died (their dying was medically proven) and gone to heaven as well as hell.
http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/a-personal-trip-to-hell/
One particular person was a 4 year old who died during surgery and says that he went to Heaven.
He describes where his parents were and what they were doing while he was under anesthesia.
He then describes who he met in heaven. He met his “Pop” who had died over 30 years prior and he saw him in his younger form (around 30 or 40ish).This was confirmed when they were flipping through pictures after he recovered. He only recognized his great grandfather in the pics where he was younger.
He also met his sister whom he did not know about, remember, he was only 4 years old.
His mother had a miscarriage before their son was even born. They had not told him about this, obviously, because again, he was only 4 years old.
He also met John the Baptist, who was introduced as Jesus’ cousin. Again, he had not heard of john the baptist yet.
So how does this fit into your “theory” of we all sleep until Jesus returns?
Buck,
How do you explain what Jesus said to the thief on the cross?
Luke 23:43Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
*TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE (emphasis mine) Jesus told the thief that TODAY….not go to sleep and wake up in 2000 plus years when I come back….LOL
How do you explain, 2 corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.
And, John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be.
And, Phillipians 1:22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and BE WITH CHRIST (EMPHASIS MINE), which is better by far;..”
AND, Matthew 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’a? HE IS NOT THE GOD OF THE DEAD BUT OF THE LIVING.”
PRIOR to the resurrection of Jesus, those who died did sleep as Jesus pointed out with his friend lazarus and the little girl. Jesus brought both of them back by speaking to them and brought them back from their “sleep”.
AFTER the resurrection of Jesus, those who were asleep were awakened. It has to do with before and after the resurrection.
Ask yourself, What purpose was in Jesus’ resurrection?
***
Hosea 13:14″I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death. Where, O death, are your plagues? Where, O grave, is your destruction? “I will have no compassion,..”
1 Corinthians 15:55″Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?”
Luke 23:43
First thing that you have to consider is, were the people that translated the Bible “inspired” by God or not?
It is my personal opinion, that those that did translate the Bible, (though I am sure were prayerful, and had only the purest of intentions), were not inspired.
Therefore, in spite of their best intentions, not only were certain words translated incorrectly, but also the placement of Chapters, insertions of verses, and even punctuation, could be in error.
Because of this, I don’t think that we as Christians should simply take how the Bible is formatted for granted as in being correct.
They unfortunately were just men, and not infallible.
If I may, I think that the following would be a clear example of this.
Acts 19:12 KJV “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.”
In this verse we see the diseases departed from the sick handkerchiefs or aprons. Shouldn’t the comma have been placed after the word “sick” instead?
This following example involves chapters, verses as well as a comma. Matthew 28:1 reads, “In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.”
As you should be well aware (from your own personal studies), the end of the Sabbath which is sunset and dawn are twelve hours apart, so why the apparent contradiction in the above verse?
The answer is found in the translation of this passage.
By reorganizing the last verse of Matthew 27 and the first verse of Matthew 28, the apparent ambiguity completely disappears.
See Matthew 27:62-66.
In Matthew 27:62, a request for a guard on the tomb was made on the Sabbath (the day after the preparation) and that the request was for a guard until the third day. By simply moving the text “in the end of the Sabbath,” from the beginning of Matthew 28:1 to the end of Matthew 27:66, which is where it should have been placed when punctuation and chapters and verse were added, we would have the following.
Matthew 27:66 “So they went, and made the sepulcher sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch in the end of the Sabbath.”
Matthew 28:1 “As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher.”
It was the watch guarding the tomb that began at the end of the Sabbath. Since Jesus was to rise the third day, the Roman guards were put in place immediately at the end of the Sabbath because they anticipated that the body of Jesus would be stolen by the Jews sometime on Sunday.
It is my opinion, that the above clearly demonstrates that neither chapter, verse, or punctuation are always correct.
Within the ongoing debate of whether or not as believers, we go straight to heaven when we die, proponents of this belief will undoubtedly quote Luke 23:43 to substantiate their view point.
However, is there is the possibility that a comma may have simply been misplaced in Luke 23:43?
Did Yeshua say, “I say to you, today you will be with Me in paradise” or, “I say to you today, you will be with Me in paradise” (at the Second Coming)?
Would not the latter, Luke 23:43 TS98 “And Jesus said to him, ‘Truly, I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise.” line up more, with all the other vastness of available Scripture, which appears to suggest the premise of the resurrection as being when believers will go to heaven as the Bride of Christ?
In respects to 2 Corinthians 5:8, I will copy and paste what it was that I had written, and posted to you already on your own blog.
Paul longed “to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”
2 Corinthians 5:8.
The question is, would this transition take place at the moment of death, or at the Second Coming?
If you were a believer in the church of Corinth, and I was Paul, and I was sending you letters to explain in them the truth of God’s word, I would dearly hope that they would have been clearly understood the first time around.
So when I sent a second letter, I could perhaps make reference to a topic that I had previously spoken about, but I wouldn’t expect to have to tell the same message all over again.
(Mail was not easy to deliver at the time.)
So with that in mind, please remember that there are 2 epistles to the church at Corinth.
In 1 Corinthians, Paul tells them in chapter 15: verses 50-55
” 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 55 “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?”
Then in his second epistle he just happens to make reference to what he had already stated within his first epistle.
Notice 2 Corinthians 5:4. “4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.”
Paul clarified in verse 4 that it would occur when “mortality” is “swallowed up by life” When is this? In his previous letter to the Corinthians, Paul wrote that “mortality” would be “swallowed up” when the resurrection of believers occurs at the end of the world.
Now read 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 in this context.
” 1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. 6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.”
Just look at the size of your counter argument for example, as opposed to the length of mine. Within the balance of probabilities, which appears to possess more evidence?
the length of your response has nothing to do with your being right-the fact that you don’t even believe the scriptures were inspired by the Holy Spirit, upon your own admission, pretty much ends this argument.
One has to have the Spirit of Truth in order to understand what the Spirit of Truth as written.
The Bible is the inerrant word of G-d, period. The Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. For one to understand this and how it was done would have to have the Holy Spirit residing inside of them as the disciples did and as so many others do as well in this present day.
In your words, it is exasperating to watch so many people to allow themselves to be deceived and miss out on the TRUTH that Jesus promised us and tried to and continues to try to do through G-d’s Holy Spirit.
sigh….
I wish that you could comprehend the written word lyndsey, really I do.
I did not say anywhere above that, “I don’t believe that scripture was inspired by the Holy Spirit.”
Just to clarify that for you,
“Scripture is God’s word. I believe that with all my heart.”
What I said above if you could possibly understand something that is not written in crayon, is…
“That the men that translated the Bible were more that likely NOT inspired.”
Then I provided examples as evidence for that premise.
As for the rest of what you say, how would you feel if you had to appear in court to defend yourself against a charge, and after hours of testimony by the Prosecutor, your defense lawyer stood up, and said 1 quick statement?
Evidence obviously carries weight. Your above comment is ridiculous. lol
This is what you wrote Buck, in CRAYON, “It is my personal opinion, that those that did translate the Bible, (though I am sure were prayerful, and had only the purest of intentions), were not inspired.”
You can’t stand the fact that a woman might know more than you!
You insult me; you verbally abuse me and you are disrespectful!
You clearly do not have the Holy Spirit as you so claim, as is found within THE EVIDENCE OF YOUR ABUSE and twisting of the word of G-d AND stating that G-d’s word was not inspired as you so stated!
The things that are spiritual can only be understood by and through the Holy Spirit who wrote the scriptures!
Until you are able to grab hold of this then you are the one writing and understanding in crayon!
And ironically, Paul even spoke about this. He said to put away the elementary and move into maturity. But of course, you wouldn’t understand that because you think the scriptures are out of order and not inspired!
Yes that is exactly what I wrote.”It is my personal opinion, that those that did translate the Bible, (though I am sure were prayerful, and had only the purest of intentions), were not inspired.”
NOT those that WROTE the Bible!
Those that “TRANSLATED” the Bible into ENGLISH!
I figured that you might just clue in when I was talking about,CHAPTERS, VERSES, PUNCTUATION etc.
The original text does NOT have these. They were added by the Translators some 1500 years after the fact.
I have no problem if a woman happens to be more knowledgeable within a particular subject than I am.
I just don’t happen to think that it is you!
There are millions of other Spirit filled Christians out there, that believe exactly what I do.
You just happen to think that you know everything.
A self righteous spirit.
I didn’t twist God’s word, I just copied and pasted scripture.
Here is something that you might want to take into consideration perhaps.
This is not meant to be mean, but I know that you will take it that way any ways.
Science has proven that our genetics can give us a predisposition to acquire certain ailments. If cancer for example runs rampant within a family, then those members have a higher degree of probability of contracting cancer.
Look at your family history!
That is all I have to say on the matter.
I don’t think that you are all that you think that you are.
Buck,
If you think that the people who translated the scriptures were not inspired as well then you have just said that the Bible is with error. How much more plain does it have to be for you to understand that!
I do know who I am in Christ! I am the “least of these” who has humbly received Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has been with me since I was 21 years old. All that I know of the scriptures has been taught to me directly from Him! That doesn’t mean I know everything. When I don’t understand something I simply ask Him to help me understand it. He is our counselor, comforter and teacher.
I have also learned that He will reveal only that which He chooses! And what I have learned I have tried to share with others. In doing so, I have also learned, through the Holy Spirit, why Jesus would say “he who ears, let him hear”.
Regarding your abuse, I do know who and what you are, for I recognize the abusive personality/spirit coming out in your posts, not just here but on my blog as well. You twist the scriptures to fit your ideas of who G-d is, rather, who you want Him to be. If what another person says contradicts your personal theology you attack them, especially if they are female for you have no respect whatsoever for women.
I will no longer give of my time and energy to someone who is filled with such hate, abuse and disrespect and has no desire whatsoever to know and have the truth.
Well “yes” then, in your pedestrian way of thinking, I have to agree with your first sentence that you make above. That is why as a Berean, I always refer to the original text during any investigative study. For THAT was the text that WAS INSPIRED and WITHOUT ERROR.
If you happen to think that the “handkerchiefs and aprons” were healed as it states in scripture, rather than the people, then all the power to ya.
As Stated above, Acts 19:12 KJV “So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.”
In this verse we see the diseases departed from the sick handkerchiefs or aprons. Shouldn’t the comma have been placed after the word “sick” instead?
As well as the other example that I posted, which clearly shows an error in Chapter, verse, and punctuation. That is why it is imperative to utilize the ORIGINAL INSPIRED text!
Over the years of further research, many errors have been discovered within the process of translation. Verses that fall in the middle of a sentence, rather than at the end, would be just another example of why people will possibly take the true meaning of what is trying to be conveyed out of context.
In what you say above, (regarding what you perceive to be your uncanny ability to profile others), Thanks for coming up with, and supplying me with a Psychological diagnosis.
Though it appears to me, that it is obvious that you are merely expressing an assumption with no foundational evidence to back up your statement whatsoever.
I have no problem with women at all! Contrary to whatever you wish to believe. I do however, clash with who you present yourself to be. See ya at the resurrection. lol
Regarding “Science has proven that our genetics can give us a predisposition to acquire certain ailments. If cancer for example runs rampant within a family, then those members have a higher degree of probability of contracting cancer.
Look at your family history!
That is all I have to say on the matter.”
If you are referring to my son who has Autism then you have crossed the line!! You are not only abusive, but cruel as well. I only know of one source who has these same traits!
I have posted this here publicly so that anyone else who comes across YOU, then they will know just who and what they are dealing with.
You are just one of many wolves Buck and you’re barking up the wrong tree!
Buck
Do you have any evidence that the bible was incorrectly translated?
Marianne,
Firstly, no language can be translated word for word into another language. Hebrew and Greek idioms often do not come through clearly into literal English. Thus, beginning in 1560 with the Geneva Bible, translators initiated the practice of adding italicized clarifying words to make the original language more plain. The fifty-four King James translators did the same. Often, they added italicized words do help make the meaning clearer. At other times, the translators through their doctrinal misunderstandings added errors instead.
For centuries prior to 1611, Latin was the only scholarly language in Europe. The Latin Vulgate translation of Jerome, based upon a[n] . . . Alexandrian Text, was the “official” text of the powerful Roman Catholic Church.
Protestant translators sometimes did not have access to all of the Received Greek Official Text, and being familiar with the Vulgate, they sometimes put words into their translations based upon the Latin which were never there in the original Greek. Schaff points out that in about 80 places in the New Testament, the KJV adopts Latin readings not found in the Greek. Erasmus had a corrupt, incomplete text of Revelation to work from, and hence this book has many errors in the KJV.
The King James translators, ( of which John Rogers my 10th. generation Grandfather on my Mothers side, and the first Martyr burned at the stake in Smithfield on Feb. 4th. 1555 who contributed in the translation as well.),did a marvelous job with the materials they had. . . .
To answer your question;
Here is a partial listing of King James Version translation errors:
Genesis 1:2 should read “And the earth BECAME without form . . . .” The word translated “was” is hayah, and denotes a condition different than a former condition, as in Genesis 19:26.
Genesis 10:9 should read ” . . . Nimrod the mighty hunter “in place of” [in opposition to] the LORD.” The word “BEFORE” is incorrect and gives the connotation that Nimrod was a good guy, which is false.
Leviticus 16:8, 10, 26 in the KJV is “scapegoat” which today has the connotation of someone who is unjustly blamed for other’s sins. The Hebrew is Azazel, which means “one removed or separated.” The Azazel goat represents Satan, who is no scapegoat. He is guilty of his part in our sins.
Deuteronomy 24:1, “then let him” should be “AND HE.” As the Savior explained in Matthew 19, Moses did not command divorcement. This statute is regulating the permission of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts.
II Kings 2:23, should be “YOUNG MEN”, not “little children.”
Isaiah 65:17 should be “I AM CREATING” [am about to create] new heavens and new earth . . . .”
Ezekiel 20:25 should read “WHEREFORE I PERMITTED THEM, or gave them over to, [false] statutes that are not good, and judgments whereby they should not live.” God’s laws are good, perfect and right. This verse shows that since Israel rejected God’s laws, He allowed them to hurt themselves by following false man made customs and laws.
Daniel 8:14 is correct in the margin, which substitutes “EVENING MORNING” for “days.” Too bad William Miller didn’t realize this.
Malachi 4:6 should read ” . . . LEST I COME AND SMITE THE EARTH WITH UTTER DESTRUCTION.” “Curse” doesn’t give the proper sense here. Same word used in Zechariah 14:11.
Matthew 5:48 should be “BECOME YE THEREFORE PERFECT” rather than “be ye therefore perfect.” “Perfect” here means “spiritually mature.” Sanctification is a process of overcoming with the aid of the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 24:22 needs an additional word to clarify the meaning. It should say “there should no flesh be saved ALIVE.”
Matthew 27:49 omits text which was in the original. Moffatt correctly adds it, while the RSV puts it in a footnote: “And another took a spear and pierced His side, and out came water and blood.” The Savior’s death came when a soldier pierced His side, Revelation 1:7.
Matthew 28:1, “In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week . . .” should be translated literally, “Now late on Sabbath, as it was getting dusk toward the first day of the week . . . .” The Sabbath does not end at dawn but at dusk. ( One of my previous examples above.)
Luke 2:14 should say, “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men of God’s good pleasure or choosing.” That is, there will be peace on earth among men who have God’s good will in their hearts.
Luke 14:26 has the unfortunate translation of the Greek word miseo, Strong’s #3404, as “hate”, when it should be rendered “LOVE LESS BY COMPARISON.” We are not to hate our parents and family!
John 1:31, 33 should say “baptize” or “baptizing IN water” not WITH water. Pouring or sprinkling with water is not the scriptural method of baptism, but only thorough immersion in water.
John 1:17 is another instance of a poor preposition. “By” should be “THROUGH”: “For the law was given by [through] Moses . . . .” Moses did not proclaim his law, but God’s Law.
John 13:2 should be “AND DURING SUPPER” (RSV) rather than “And supper being ended” (KJV).
Acts 12:4 has the inaccurate word “Easter” which should be rendered “PASSOVER.” The Greek word is pascha which is translated correctly as PASSOVER in Matthew 26:2, etc.
I Corinthians 1:18 should be: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that ARE PERISHING foolishness; but unto us which ARE BEING SAVED it is the power of God”, rather than “perish” and “are saved.”
Likewise, II Thessalonians 2:10 should be “ARE PERISHING” rather than “perish.”
I Corinthians 15:29 should be: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for THE HOPE OF the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for THE HOPE OF the dead?”
II Corinthians 6:2 should be “A” day of salvation”, instead of “THE” day of salvation.” This is a quote from Isaiah 49:8, which is correct. The day of salvation is not the same for each individual. The firstfruits have their day of salvation during this life. The rest in the second resurrection.
I Timothy 4:8 should say, “For bodily exercise profiteth FOR A LITTLE TIME: but godliness in profitable unto all things . . . .”
I Timothy 6:10 should be, “For the love of money is “A” [not the] root of all evil . . . .”
Hebrews 4:8 should be “Joshua” rather than “Jesus”, although these two words are Hebrew and Greek equivalents.
Hebrews 4:9 should read, “There remaineth therefore a KEEPING OF A SABBATH to the people of God.”
Hebrews 9:28 is out of proper order in the King James. It should be: “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them without sin that look for him shall he appear the second time unto salvation.”
I John 5:7-8 contains additional text which was added to the original. “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The italicized text was added to the original manuscripts. Most modern translations agree that this was an uninspired addition to the Latin Vulgate to support the unscriptural trinity doctrine. ( Though I happen to personally believe in the Trinity, this is why it has been removed from contemporary editions)
Revelation 14:4 should be “A” firstfruits”, because the 144,000 are not all the firstfruits.
Revelation 20:4-5 in the KJV is a little confusing until you realize that the sentence “This is the first resurrection.” in verse five refers back to “they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years” in verse four.
Revelation 20:10, “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are [correction: should be 'were cast' because the beast and false prophet were mortal human beings who were burned up in the lake of fire 1,000 years previous to this time, Revelation 19:20], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” The point is that Satan will be cast into the SAME lake of fire into which the beast and false prophet were cast a thousand years previously.
Revelation 22:2 should be “HEALTH” rather than “healing.”
These are just a few of literally hundreds of mistranslations made in the KJV. This is why I say it is imperative that an individual utilizes the original texts while conducting their investigative studies. They are the only truly “inspired by God” texts. I also realize Marianne, that you have expressed in the past that I only possess “some limited mental understanding”, however I hope that the above proves to be sufficient in my desire to answer your above question.
Lyndsey, I find it extremely exasperating when you accuse others as not being filled with the Holy Spirit, simply because their hermeneutics happen to disagree with yours. You know that we don’t like each other, and you did cast the first stone in a manner of speaking as well. I just responded by giving you some of your own medicine.
I hope that this proves informative to those that take the time to read it.
“Lyndsey, I find it extremely exasperating when you accuse others as not being filled with the Holy Spirit, simply because their hermeneutics happen to disagree with yours.”
No, this is not why I said you did not have the Holy Spirit. Your continued verbal abuse of me and now my son makes it very clear to me and would to anyone else by reading your posts that you do not have the Holy Spirit!
The Holy Spirit is not abusive; he is not cruel; he does not attack and accuse someone’s child who has special needs as being “a cancer”.
And because of this, you have lost all credibility that you may have hoped to obtain, as well as respect, and therefore your above translations are not accepted as credible considering the source of which they came.
***Because of what has spewed out of your heart and onto the pages of this site speaks loudly of who you are and who you are not!***
Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruits! And you can “translate” that any way you like!
http://www.fallibleblogma.com/index.php/why-should-we-believe-in-the-bible/
So the authority of the Biblical canon – and therefore, indirectly, the Bible itself – rests on the authority of the Catholic Church. Either the Catholic Church had the authority and capacity to do this or they didn’t. We can see through history and reason that they did have this authority. Therefore, I believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God.
So the only rational reason we can believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God is essentially because the Catholic Church has revealed that to us by their authority and charism given to it by Christ. And if we trust the Catholic Church to determine its canon, perhaps we should also trust it to interpret it for us. After all, that’s why God gave us a Church with the authority to do such things.
http://www.Jesus-is-Lord.com
Is Catholic Tradition Equal to the Bible?
In receiving lots of e-mails from Catholics I get a pulse on the latest misinformation they are receiving from their apologists. The issue of oral tradition is one such error. Catholics are being told that the early church passed things down orally that are not in our Bible–so we gotta listen to the Catholic religion.
In typical style they are given some Bible verses to tenuously support this false doctrine. Well, we are going to bring it all out in the open. The light of the word maketh manifest, you know. We are going to examine the following:
Does the Bible support Catholic tradition?
Is the “Sin of Presumption” supported by the Bible?
Did Jesus appoint a multi-billion dollar organization to be boss?
Did the Catholic religion give me the scriptures?
Is the Bible enough for me to know God and His will?
Can tradition and the Bible both be true?
Why does the Catholic Religion emphasize tradition so much?
I’ll answer that with another question: How could they support its heretical doctrines using the scripture as the sole rule of authority?
Mary worship? In the Bible you can only find how God hates the Queen of Heaven.
The eucharist? In the Bible you can only find how God said don’t drink blood.
Purgatory? The word and concept are not in the Bible.
Co-redemptrix? In the Bible you find there is only ONE Redeemer and Saviour. His name is Jesus.
Take practically any Catholic practice and it will fit in here.
What is Catholic tradition supposed to mean anyway?
I’ll let one of our Catholic readers explain:
“I hope you understand was is meant by Tradition, it is not “tradition” with a small “t”. It is Sacred “Tradition”, with a capital “T” meaning the oral teachings of Christ and the apostles…”
Oh, so there is a whole bunch of stuff I CAN’T know from the Bible because it was only given orally and the Catholic religion has somehow been able to get this spoken word from somewhere and tell me what it was. I see and I reject this nonsense. First let’s see what Jesus says about man’s tradition (I love the word of God, it just illuminates everything).
What does Jesus say about Tradition?
“Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [Y]e made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites.”
–Jesus Christ
Matthew 15:3, 6, 7
What else does Jesus say about Tradition?
Then the Pharisees and scribes asked [Jesus], why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is WRITTEN [Jesus is quoting the Bible], This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…
And he said unto them, Full well YE REJECT THE COMMANDMENT OF GOD, THAT YE MAY KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mark 7:5-9, 13
THIS is the scripture Catholics need to read! But alas, instead they listen to their apologists and try to support their man-made traditions with the Book they once burned and outlawed!
Does the Bible support Catholic tradition like they say it does?
Now, they have the nerve to go to THE BIBLE for proof of their tradition. What scriptures do they give as biblical proof of Catholic Tradition? Let’s look at some of them…
1 Corinthians 15:3, 11 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Where does it say this was passed down by oral tradition?
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Where does it say this is oral tradition?
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
Relevance please? This does not commend us to the Traditions of the Catholic religion. Where does it say this is oral tradition?
The Catholic “Sin of Presumption” says it is a sin to say that you have eternal life. They say that you simply can’t know for sure. But what does the Bible say?
These things have I WRITTEN unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
The Catholic religion calls the Bible a lie. The “Sin of Presumption” tradition says that it is a sin to say that you know FOR SURE that you are going to heaven–but didn’t we just read a Bible verse GURANTEEING HEAVEN to the believer?
More verses that the Catholic religion uses to support their heretical traditions.
1 Corinthians 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please?
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please?
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Where does it say, “Listen to Catholic Tradition?” Relevance please? Paul is instructing people who heard him and his fellowlaborers.
Did Jesus say some big multi-BILLION dollar organization would lord over the believer?
Negative, my friend. The pope has got the nerve to claim that he not only has spiritual control over the whole world but that he has temporal sovereignty–that means he is over top of everybody–the President of the United States, the Prime Minister of England–he is everybody’s boss! “You gotta do this, you can’t that, you can’t interpret that, you gotta pay money to get her out of purgatory, you gotta listen to me, me, me!” Catholics scream, “The pope gotta tell us what God wants! We can’t know it for ourselves, we’re too blind! We need an earthly vicar of Christ to tell us what to believe.”
But what did the meek Jesus say? Jesus said that true believers would never lord over other believers. He didn’t just say it one time in the scriptures either–He said it three times:
Matthew 20:25-26 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise AUTHORITY upon them. But IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister
Mark 10:42-43 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise AUTHORITY upon them. BUT SO SHALL IT NOT BE AMONG YOU: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Luke 22:25-26 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise AUTHORITY upon them are called benefactors [or maybe, Mother Church?]. BUT YE SHALL NOT BE SO: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Do Catholics even care about Jesus? He’s been left out of the equation. They’ve replaced Him with “His (un)Holiness, the pope.” Lord have mercy, Jesus.
If the pope was a man of God, what would he do?
Instead of bossing everybody around and telling them how to disobey the scriptures, he’d agree with Paul by saying…
2 Corinthians 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
Hallelujah and thank you Jesus for laying it all out in your word! You are the Word (John 1:1)! Jesus never sanctioned the organization of the Catholic religion, in fact He hates it.
True believers have ALWAYS had the Scriptures
One Catholic reader said this…
“…You must admit that before the Bible was compiled as it is now, much of it was passed to people by word of mouth.”
I must admit no such thing. The written word of God, the scriptures, have always been available to true believers. Not only that, the written word has always been operative in God’s dealing with mankind. The Ten Commandments were written in stone! It wasn’t this memory business. The Jewish people were the careful custodians of the written scriptures:
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. Romans 3:1-2
Most of us know how carefully the written word was kept by God’s chosen people, Israel.
God has always emphasized the importance of keeping His written word:
This BOOK OF THE LAW SHALL NOT DEPART OUT OF THY MOUTH; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is WRITTEN therein… Joshua 1:8
Psalm 119 is the longest chapter in the Bible and it is ALL about the importance of knowing the scriptures.
But what about in the New Testament? Jesus read from the BOOK Isaiah in the synagogue:
Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the BOOK of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was WRITTEN,
Paul read the gospel of JESUS IN THE WRITTEN WORD! Listen:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES
We know Timothy had the WRITTEN word of the gospel as a child:
…from a child thou hast known the holy SCRIPTURES, which ARE ABLE TO MAKE THEE WISE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH FAITH WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS. 2 Timothy 3:15
The Bereans didn’t just listen to what the apostles said, but they compared their teaching to the SCRIPTURES to see if those things were so.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11
We are told in the New Testament to study the word and RIGHTLY divide it. That means don’t be misinterpreting! Tell the truth about the Bible, not lies:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15
Well, what is the truth? Jesus told us:
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. John 17:17
I could go on and on examining this issue of us true believers always having the scriptures…
The apostles’ WRITTEN epistles were read to the churches (e.g., James, Hebrew, Thessalonians, Colossians, etc.)
Peter referred to Paul’s epistles as SCRIPTURE.
The Ethiopian eunuch was READING THE SCRIPTURES when Philip came up to his chariot.
Did the Catholic religion give me the scriptures?
I can’t believe they are even forming their mouths to say this. The Catholic religion hates the Bible. The Catholic religion killed upwards of 50 MILLION PEOPLE because they wanted to stop the reading of the Bible. What gall they have to mention this thing about giving me the scriptures. They BURNED the scriptures. [The upcoming 400th year anniversary of the King James Bible is a good time to reflect on the Roman Catholic institution's efforts to hinder the transmission of the Bible to the people.]
Do not be under the false assumption that there was ever a time when the Catholic religion had control of all Christendom. True Bible believers have always been around living, growing and thriving in isolated areas–people like the Waldensians and the Lollardsands.
Is the Bible enough?
The Catholic religion says, “No, the Bible is not enough. You have to keep it in perspective.” But the Bible says something entirely different. Revelation 22:18-19 says that the BIBLE IS COMPLETE. That means the Bible is not missing anything! There is nothing to be added and nothing to be taken away.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
If you are a Catholic person teaching people to believe in Tradition, you need to re-evaluate what you are doing. Not only do you follow a false gospel, you add to and subtract from God’s word. You might want to read the above again and consider what you are doing.
I’ve compiled a list of every New Testament reference to the word “scripture”. NO WHERE will you find it say that the scriptures are not sufficient for everthing that we need. One Catholic told me,
“The Bible itself never claims to be the sole rule of faith. The Bible claims itself useful to settle disputes, etc..but never, anywhere does it say that faith and Christianity is taught ONLY through the Bible.”
Of course this is not true, but the larger question is this:
Where does the Bible say that it is NOT the sole rule of faith?
If what you believe is supposed to be based on the Bible, then logically speaking, there must be a place that specifically sanctions the Catholic religion and its traditions. You won’t find it. The burden of proof rests on the Catholic, not the Bible believer.
What does Tradition mean to the Catholic?
How does the Catholic reliance on the Traditions of men manifest itself? They quote men like they quote the Bible! In fact, they are commanded to believe 100% of everything that Tradition says and they MUST EQUATE TRADITION with the Bible, the word of God! Catholic quotes:
“…a man by the name of Helvidius concluded…”
“St. Jerome rose up to proclaim…”
“Pope Pious said…”
Catholics quote MEN just like they are quoting the Word of God and believe EVERYTHING men say! But doesn’t the Bible say, “Let God be true and EVERY man a liar?” They believe lies! They teach lies! They have committed their very souls to liars. Open your eyes and see Catholic reader.
An example of tradition in action.
Let’s take an example of one of their grievious errors–their worship of Mary. It simply CANNOT be justified through the scriptures. It simply CANNOT be done. But it can be REFUTED from the Bible! That’s why they are alway bringing up a “sola scriptura” mumbo-jumbo mix and want to fuss with you about it. The ONLY way that you can assert that Mary was a “perpetual virgin” is through Catholic Traditions. You CANNOT find this error in the Bible. You cannot. It is same thing with practically everything else they believe.
Conclusion
Either you believe the written word or you’ll believe what MEN tell you about the written word. Catholics will tell you, “I believe the Bible is 100% true and I believe that Catholic Tradition is 100% true.” I’ve got news for you, two contradictory documents cannot both be 100% true. It is logically impossible.
God will not accept your worship based on a lie.
|
Buck;
Just curious, what’s your religious background? I don’t know about anyone else but it helps me to know where someone is coming from. Do you have a problem with that?
Luke 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.
Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
I PRESS TOWARD THE GOAL FOR THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.
wow! this has definetly enlightened me….NOT! A whole lot of talk is all…meaningless…Jesus says CHANGE THE WAY WE THINK AND ACT! is all…GROW UP guys…religion is for the unbelievers….the holy spirit is for those who believe in jesus…john 3:16 is all we need to know…and keep the 10 commandments…that SIMPLE…
Thank you wendeloo for bringing this to my attention.
Buck, or whatever you want to be called?
you are denying the Holy Spirit, and as Lyndsey stated, you have revealed for who you are. Matthew 12:33-37
oh gee, I wonder who you know who is……
Dear “youknowwho”…. “itsme”….. or “Lyndsey”
All I did was to suggest that you were “crazy” because you didn’t seem to be able to grasp, or distinguish between what I was referring to as “the numerous translators” of the Bible, (into whatever vernacular of their choosing) and the original inspired text written by the Apostles.
You were the one that unfortunately took that “shot” and created something ugly out of it, and when I had realized that you had taken my intention completely out of context, I then attempted to clarify that under a pseudonym. Then when that didn’t work, I then asked Marianne to forward an email apology to you.
Though this happened almost a year ago now, I am sorry to see that your heart is still bitter over it. For though you did take what I said to you out of context, and misconstrued its intent, (God knows that I would never have said to you what you thought I was saying), I have I made every effort available to apologize to you for it.
I had hoped that my prayers for you to release this, let it go and move forward, had been answered.
I will include you in my prayers again tonight.
Wishing you Shalom
Buck
you know who is not Lyndsey. guess again.
LOL…….. Is it the “self righteous” individual that was banned from the site a month or so ago?
What’s their beef with me? LOL.
My judge is Yeshua, and their comments mean little to me.
Buck
People can post here as long as they do not harass others, and I have made that known.
Debates are ok,, but waging war isn’t.
take care.
Hey……. I’m not waging war?
I haven’t popped in here in over a week, and the first thing I see is a post directed to me berating me for utilizing a pseudonym by someone else who is also using a pseudonym? (This is not only hypocritical, but something that many individuals do here on a regular basis.)
In respects to “harassment” also included within that post, and directed to me, is the verses Matthew 12:33-37.
So I would ask, since I have not reached out for a comment from this particular individual, and that they chose to instead voice their opinion out of the blue to me with a disparaging comment, “Who between the two of us would be guilty of harassment?”
If I am correct then within my assumption of who this is, (since you offered no clarification regarding their identity), I will simply not respond any further to them. I just thought that it was Lyndsey at first, and felt bad that she was still bitter, rather than healed. If I knew the poster was who I think that it is, I wouldn’t have bothered to respond at all.
Be Blessed
I was not referring to you.
I was just indicating that the person, or just anyone in general, had to abide by the rules I indicated.
Oh….. and for anyone else that may be perhaps reading this in the future, while doing a study on a completely different topic, I was able to reconcile the above subject, regarding “going to heaven when we die” in my heart.
It is now my opinion that we Do go to heaven when we die as believers, and I would like to take this opportunity to recant all of my above comments.
Be Blessed
“buck”
I did not mean to bring out old wounds, and battles, but there is a consistency in them. You consistently deny that the HolySpirit has any role in interpretation or understanding of scripture. If I was trying to “hide” behind aliases, I would not have given myself the name “Youknowwho”, and I would have altered my linguistics in order to deceive you. As for my other “name”, it was three random letters punched in as there were several “David’s” on the site already. You yourself should have known my real name by way of email correspondence. I know you do not wish to interact with me, but your words are your fruit. I was merely reminding others of them. As for my self righteousness, that is what you have accused me of. But if you look closesly at ALL the words I have said, I have merely tried to bring people together in Christ, to show what unites us, but the “vipers” and “false prophets” do not want to see this happen. The best way for them to stop this is to “kill” the messenger. (if there is one theme that spans the whole Bible, it is this)
What is it that unites Christians? The Cross, repentence and belief. I have shared with you and others what each of these things mean. Yet most are stuck in arguing till they are blue in the face of their “interpretation” as being the only way. We as a body know how to criticize one another, but we have lost sight of the cross. Without Jesus I am nothing, as are you, or any other “saint” out there. If giving glory to God and the work of the Holy Spirit in us is “self-righteousness” then I am guilty as charged. But there is also a guilt associated with denying the work of the Holy Spirit and assigning it to the work of “Beelzebul”. I pray this is not you?
Apart from the Holy Spirit, all our “works” are as filthy rags. The rags of the old way of religiousity, and earning our salvation. Whether we believe we earn it by obeying the letter of the law, or by indepth biblical study. “Knowledge puffs up, but LOVE builds up. If any one imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know”
You often quote the Berean interaction with Paul, but what you fail to see is that they “received” his word with eagerness, then they searched the scripture and believed. But if you do not receive the testimony, and instead dispose of it with accusations, then there is no power in that testimony to allow you to grow in your understanding. Jesus said “whoever RECEIVES you RECEIVES me” speaking to the apostles. This is a reference to the Holy Spirit, and the words spoken through the servants of the Lord. When I made a point that perhaps those who are mature in their faith will be called to suffer through the tribulation, instead of being raptured, you rejected this because it does not fit your interpretation of the ten Virgins. Are you receiving the message with eagerness, or are you disposing of it solely on your own understanding? Much like the above arguments with Lyndsey, instead of receiving the revalation given to Lindsey, you turn it to accusations and even mockery, with no repentence whatsoever. Even in 1 John 4, we are told to “test the spirits”, and it gives us a guideline for how to do it. Not to reject them because they do not fit our interpretation of scripture. I suggest you read 1 John 4:6. If there is one thing that I have learned through out the years, is that God uses “least” among us to confound the wise. This is why Love is the foundation of the Gospel, and not intelectulism. We as Christians receive revelations from the Holy Spirit, only if we have put aside our pride, our credibility, our life, etc. all those things we treasure on earth. This is what it means to “take up your cross and follow [him].” If we are so caught up in defending our position, that we cannot receive instruction, then we have not truly crucified ourselves (see Matt. 10:34-42) WE, Our fallen nature always tries to build ourselves up, that we are worthy, but it is not until we truly accept the fact that we are unworthy, and receive him, that we become heirs with him. It is the same with knowledge. Our intelect interferes with our ability to RECEIVE greater understanding (Epignosis as you have called it) It is not until we admit that it is beyond our intelect, that we are able to receive what he has to offer us in the way of revalation by the Spirit. This is why I tried to get you to do a study on the word “receive”.
From the moment of our conversion, we receive his Gift, we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive forgiveness of our sins, we receive wisdom and understanding….You get the picture, there is a total abscence of ourselves in the whole picture, as we have “crucified ourselves”.
Obviously, you can take what I have written here and not receive it, or you can do as the bereans did, and receive it and use the scripture to see if it is so, or you can get defensive and use your own understanding to reject it, because it probably does not “fit” your understanding. If it does not benefit you, then perhaps it will benefit others.
1 john 5:20
There you go again.
Buck has never denied the role of the holy spirit, and you have not cornered the world market on wisdom. You make assumptions that others who do not agree with you lack all sorts of virtue, and then critique them as if you have all the answers, and condemn them.
This is wrong.
And when you are told you are wrong, you refuse to stop. You are so convinced, that you are right that you continue on, and create more harm.
If you want to debate an issue, you will use the format,” I disagree because”, then use scripture to back your theory.
You do not resort to personal attacks on the person’s salvation or character.
Spend this time of grace back on the site in reviewing your own character flaws, and putting pride under control, and getting the need to condemn for imaginary sins under control.
I personally do agree that it seems that christians will go through tribulation, but this is not a reason to disrespect another’s interpretation.
Marianne
I disagree because…..
If you could please read my second paragraph, and tell me specifically, how this is self righteousness? If I am giving glory to God, and the work the HS has done in me. Using logic (you are a scientist, are you not?), is this not the opposite of self righteousness, as I am not taking any credit for the work he has done? Would I not be blaspheming the HS if I did not acknowledge the work of the HS in my life? Have I ever said I have “cornered the world market on wisdom”? Have I not admitted and confessed my errors when I have made them? (Think Al in particular) Have I not backed up my arguments with scripture? None of what I have written is about disrespecting anothers interpretation, it is about pointing people to the absolute truths in God’s word. Sin,Repentence, faith, and the cross. Is this the work of demons?
Is this how you will treat Elijah when he comes, and he tries to “turn their hearts…? I can tell you right now that he will speak with authority from God and not from “interpretation” and hermaneutical minutia. Just as he stood up to Jezebel’s false prophets saying “Cry aloud for he is a god. either he is musing, or he he is relieving himself, or he is on a journey, or he is asleep and must be awakened”. So is this self righteousness, or righteous “Jealous[y] for the Lord, the God of Hosts”?
My Goal with buck has been to deepen his understanding as opposed to “personal attack”. I think if anyone reads my comments they will see this. You use the Socratic method to manipulate people, I try to have them confront their ego so as to lead to repentence. Which is more “scriptural”?
Am I trying to make them agree with all my interpretations? by no means. In fact when they learn to trust in the Holy Spirit, I am sure they will build up the body of Christ in unimagined ways. and challenge and even refute my interpretations. I myself have gone from a pre trib rapture person to a no rapture person to a sixth seal rapture person, to a person that says that the Lord will bring on his Kingdom and deal with the church as he sees fit. I trust He will do what is just. I Just know what the word of God says with regard to suffering for our faith, if called to do so, and I will obey his will if that is what He requires of me! But if someone is so stuck on the pre trib rapture interpretation, then they will not hear the Lord’s calling, and know to follow him. And they will miss out on the “great rewards” He has in store for us. (Remember, we RECEIVE his calling, and cannot force it upon ourselves or others) In order to receive, we must be receptive, which is what pride hinders!
Now you can go on accusing me of self righteousness, or pride, but I assure you the Holy Spirit has dealt with that in my life and has sanctified me. You are not hurting me with your accusations, as I have crucified myself. What you see as my pride is merely the assurance the Holy Spirit brings, Knowing that the HS is speaking through me, if not to you then to others who may read this someday.
“The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. 19. Has not Moses given you the Law? Yet none of you keeps the Law. Why do you seek to kill me?” 20. The crowd answered, “you have demon!…24. ‘Do not Judge by appearences (self righteousness/ legalism), but judge with right judgement.(Moral and theological discernment)’ ” John 7:18-20a, 24. (Parenthesis taken from MacArthur notes for verse 24) (This is part of my scriptural backing for my answer)
Now Marianne, I expect you to answer with “I disagree because” and then back your answer with scripture….lol
btw. as for condemning others, the Bible is quite clear on this, Without the blood of Jesus, we are condemned to death already. Remember, we deserve none of his grace. Reminding people of this, if they are a Christian, should not be an insult, but rather lead one to praise the Lord for the work he has done in us!
Though my words may come off as sarcastic, and demeaning, I assure you they are not the intent in my heart. God bless.
Hi Marianne,
Thanks for your support, (and acknowledging the fact that I have never denied the critical importance that the role of the Holy Spirit plays in our lives.) However, this individuals “sticks and stones” don’t bother me whatsoever. (yawn.)
As I have stated before, he is not my judge.
He does appear though to be rather obsessive, and it seems that he lacks the ability to simply let things go, agree to disagree and to move on.
(Sort of like a fat guy on a pork chop. Apparently…. I am the pork chop.) lol.
I hope that you choose not to invest too much time in debate with him regarding this, for as it has been demonstrated in the past, I don’t believe that it will prove to be productive at all.
Be Blessed
Buck
I disagree because…..
You did not follow mariannes rules, and resorted to personal attacks, which is nothing new for you!
I agree because…
I am not your Judge, God Is.
If you see a child shoplifting, do you stop him, tell the Authorities to take action, tell the child’s parents and let them decide the punishment, or do you ignore it all together? Are you self righteous for taking any action? To me this is as simple as that. The Judge, whoever that may be will punish accordingly, based on the testimony of the witnesses. I merely point out the infraction so as to make others aware.
I do have biblical support for this, but you will probably see it as an insult.
May you be blessed as well
btw -You are revealing far more about your character than you think in your interactions here! I let go a long time ago.
I disagree because
I have never used any method to manipulate people. i only allow different debate methods to allow different viewpoints to be discussed.
So that is a false accusation, and you have never apologized for that, since you still cling to it. You do not dictate my intentions to me.
The devil is the accuser of the bretheren, so beware of the behavior pattern.
You tend to misinterpret people’s comments, and then pass judgement. That is erroneous thinking.
Just because you feel the holy spirit guides you does not mean he is guiding someone you disagree with.
You say someone who disagree with you needs to have their ego confronted.
Take the beam out of your own eye first, before you fool around with someone else’s eye.
Also, when someone explains their motives and intentions to you, do not deny them and act like you know their mind better than they do.
Hmmm, tag team bout.
marianne
i disagree because….
I have your words saying that you use the socratic method in the emails we exchanged. Would you like me to publish them? (That was not intended as a threat, only as defense against your accusation. I do not think you want to start that debate again) Obviously you are hiding this from the people on this site, for what reason I do not know?
I agree because…
I do tend to misinterpret peoples comments. As do most of us if we are honest with ourselves. I was particularly guilty of this with Al, and when I realized this, I apologized to him. Resolved conflicts can result in unity as much as agreements.
Errors in your so called quotes from me.
Your words ” You say someone who disagree(s) with you needs to have there ego confronted”
I actually said “I try to have THEM confront THEIR ego so as to lead to repentence”
That is a big difference, as it has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing, and has everything to do with repentence, and it is not me doing the confronting, it is them. Ultimately, this is the work of the Holy Spirit, not me. They can choose to confront or not confront it. (see proverbs 29:23, James 4:6) It is their loss if they do not. I even said in the next paragraph, “Am I trying to make them agree with all my interpretations? By no means.”
Micah 6:8
Do no assign motives to what I say. I never said I had any intention of manipulating anyone. you attach motives which is inappropriate.
All future remarks, we will discuss offline.
if you post here, I will have to delete them. this website is not meant to conduct your personal arguments or perpetuate strife.
I’m new here but I think those of you who want to argue and insult each other should trade email addresses and resolve it that way. All of you have knowledge to impart to others which is why I’m here. So, please can you keep it scriptural or at least an opinion? Thanks and no offense.
dear hollowpoint
I completely agree with you.
I can assure you that the above controversy has been resolved offline. Some people no longer comment here now.
my name is deborah,,,,my husband calvin died on Jan. 7 2012,,,,we were very close,,,,we are both born again…..at the church when calvin was buried,,,,when the preacher asked for prayer for anyone that had not excepted Jesus as their savior,,,,i closed my eyes,,,and God revealed a beautiful sight,,,,i saw calvin standing in a big opening with alot of movement behind him…..he had on a bright yellow jacket,,,,,( that’s what it looked like to me ) he was smiling with the most beautiful look on his face,,,,,he looked so happy and he just beamed at me…i was so shocked that i open my eyes,,,then closed them back again…and there he was again in the same place ……..he became a part of the background and he was gone……when i got home from the funeral and everyone had left,,,,i open my bible to 2 cor. chap. 3 ver. 17,18…….i did not plan on reading this,,,,it’s just where i open it up too……my eyes went to that…..it reads…….Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom..And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes for the Lord, who is the Spirit,,,,now everytime i feel like i could just lay down and die ,,,the Holy Spirit reminds of this..i have not seen this vision anymore,,,,,but God let me know where my husband is to give me comfort……..i don’t understand about the yellow jacket…that he was wearing,,,,,
hi Deborah
You have my heart, prayers and love over your loss.
Yellow tends to mean set backs and struggles before improvement.
I think the yellow jacket was your husband’s recognition of your grieving process, and the hardships you would face after his death.
But he was letting you know that all would be ok in the end, with his beautiful smile.
Thank you so much,,,,,,i am having a hard time…..i know that Jesus will carry me…..he has been doing it since this has happen to me……it’s just hard to go on,,,knowing calvin is not here with me,,,,,,,but i know God wants me to keep going until he calls me home……..thank you…lov deb,,,in Jesus name….i pray…..
My brother in law died last year in June 2011 he was only 25 yrs old and he was electrocuted. We have been mourning his death and it has been very hard for the family and especially my sister who lost her husband. This week my daughter who was also close to my brother in law called me crying saying she had a dream of my brother in law and he was at a church and he was in the congregation and he was beaming with a light around him and he looked beautiful. She says she felt alot of peace and was not scared. She told him we all missed him and he told her he missed us also. He also told my daughter that when you go to heaven that God will reveal all your life to you. He said he saw his life flash before him and the times he strayed away from God. He also told my daughter that he knew my sister was not right but that he still loved her. When my daughter told me that dream and it brought great comfort and made my faith in God even stronger. I dont know if this was a message from God but in my heart I believe it is. I have read all the post but I do believe that God is a God of love and he sees our pain and he allowed this to happen to bring us comfort and some closure. My sister right now is not doing so good. She is dealing with her pain by seeing someone who is not good for her and is partying. We pray for her and she knows but she says we dont understand her. I believe the dream was a message also for her.
dear Teacher
We deal with grief in different ways. Your sister has my prayers.
Teacher: Since my husband has gone home to be with Jesus,,,,,the only way that i can live with this is to depend upon my God to see me through this,,,,,,i know that my savior died for me,,,,,and he paided a price that i could never paid……he will comfort you and guide you if you let him….through your life ,,,,sometimes we let our human emotions get into play,,,,,we have to learn to live outside of our selves and just ,,,think,,,what would Jesus do……………i also know that when a husband dies,,,God becomes a widow’s husband ,,,,,,and he always takes care of us,,,if we let him…..don’t get me wrong,,,the heartbreak gets unhuman at times,,,,but if we let God help us he will,,,,,,sometimes we try to fine things to get our minds off of it without God’s help,,,we can get into worst situations and make it worst on us,,,,,but we can’t do it without God…..God Bless you and thank you for commenting…..all i can tell you is too pray for your sister…if you have never gone through something like this,,,,,it’s hard to tell you the pain,,,,,,my husband was talking to me and then he was just gone,,,and i watched him and i could not help him……but thanks to my father in heaven i do know where he is at……..i will pray for your sister,,,,,Jesus will see her through this,,,,,and make her right,,,,
Thank you for your response and prayers. I also just experience my uncle and grandmother deaths along with my brother inlaw in the past 7 months. So much grief. I worry about death myself and sometimes too much I start worrying about my family and “what if” that happens to me. I worry about what happens after death. I know it’s crazy cause I do believe in God but with people I know dieing around me it’s so scary. I just put those thoughts to the side and just pray and look for signs that God is with me
Teacher: When God allowed me to see the look on my husband’s face,,,i know it’s wonderful where he is at…..If you confest with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart that God raise him from the dead then you will be saved ,,,,,you don’t have to worry about diying…..he will be right there with you when you go….we have a beautiful life waiting for us when we leave this world…..Just because our body dies,,,,,,,our soul will be free to go home…..you need to read the book ……Heaven is for real……It’s about a little boy who dies when he is being operating on,,,,he goes to heaven ,,,,and when God allows him to come back he tells stuff that only he would have seen……he was just 4 years old…….he said that when Jesus smiles he lights up heaven…….Just live for Jesus and do what he says to do…….Don’t worry our God is a mighty God and he is in control…………..the Holy Spirt will guide you and let you know……he does me all the time……i am looking forward to going home……..