Which Word is Which?
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A look at the first chapter of John.
There are 2 “Words” in this introduction. Word # 1 is the Father God, and Word #2 is Jesus. Once this is understood, it is easier to read and interpret. Jesus is the Word of God, but so is the Father the Word of God. Both are being discussed here. Jesus receives the Word from the Father, and then transfers the Word to us.
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Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (#1-Father), and the Word (#2 – Jesus) was with God (#1-Father), and the Word (#1-Father) was God.
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Jhn 1:2 The same (#2 – Jesus) was in the beginning with God (#1-Father).
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Jhn 1:3 All things were made through ( by means of) him (#2 – Jesus); and without him was not any thing made, that was made
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Jhn 1:14 And the Word (#2 – Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory (#2 – Jesus), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (Word #1-Father) , full of grace and truth.
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Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God (Word #1-Father) at any time; [except] the only begotten Son (#2 – Jesus) , which is in the bosom of the Father (Word #1-Father), he (#2 – Jesus) hath declared [him].
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Physical creation of earth:
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Word # 1 (Father God) ↔ Word, Power, Light
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Word # 2 (Jesus)
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Creation
The Father God is the source of all things. He is Creator. However, the Father God chose to go through His Son Jesus, sending power, and light, and word through Jesus, to accomplish His will, thus involving Jesus in the process.
Jesus continues to act as mediator between Father God and His creation. Is he your mediator?
[...] God, and Word #2 is Jesus. Once this is understood, it is easier to read and interpret. Click here for [...]
Which Word is Which? « Heaven Awaits said this on August 15, 2008 at 4:14 am |
Marianne, I don’t know what prompts you to say this. The Greek is pretty clear in referring to the same Word twice:
“En arche ein o logos, kai o logos en pros ton theon, kai theos en o logos.”
Roughly: “In the beginning was the Word, and (this same – nominative singular) the Word was with the God, and God was (this same – nomitive singular) the Word.”
If we were talking about different words, the Greek would likely be different, shifting the case of “The Word” from ‘o logos’ to, say, ‘ton logon’ or something else, depending on how the phrase was constructed. Instead, we see the same case of Word throughout, but the case of God changes: ‘ton theon’ (accusative singular) to ‘o theos’ (nominative singular, matching the case of ‘o logos’, which makes sense because ‘o logos’ and ‘o theos’ are one and the same, according to John).
Hi Brian,
I was not referring to how many Greek words were used, but the fact that BOTH the Father is the Word of God, and the Son is the Word of God. They are both described in the verses.
Does that make more sense? Maybe I should change something?
blessings
marianne
I think that the Tradition regarding this verse is to see “The Word” as being only Christ, who is eternally begotten from the Father God, and who is God. I have never read someone describe the Father as The Word, and I think the Greek text bears out this reading.
Hi Brian,
I wrote this because this passage came to mind.
Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
*** Jesus gets His words from his Father
Therefore the “words” were first initiated by the Father and passed to the Son….so it seems like both represent the Word of God, not just one person. They both have the Word of God in them. We call Jesus the Word since we do not see the Father and he is the one that presents the word of God to us.
I was breaking with tradition a little to view the Father God as the Word also. Usually just Jesus gets the credit.
blessings
marianne
That is a unique interpretation, but I think that verse proves the point: Christ is the Word of God, who comes from the Father. He and the Father are one, but strictly speaking, Christ is the Word only. They are unified in that Word, though, being one God.
Hi Brian
It is a play on words, but there might be some truth in it also
One approach is to look at the Word as a title that Jesus carries and another approach is to look at the Word as “who has this knowledge or Word in them”
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne
To Brian, I agree with you. Jesus and God the Father are ONE.
As in the Book of John says in Chapter 1 v 1: In the begining was the Word and the Word was God and the Word was with God. The Bible as we know is the Word of God, God is the author, all written by the hands of men. Marianne I want to thank you for your reply in regard to who is Jesus, Is Jesus and God one?
RT
I think we are in agreement? What is most important is that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are united as one, they work with each other in total harmony and “oneness.” They are not the same person.
blessings
marianne
Colossians 1:15 “He is the image of the invisible God.” From what I understand and read, He, who is Jesus, is the visible God.
They I believe are one. AS it states in the Bible. In Revelations Jesus says in ch 1:10 & 11: John begins with “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day and I heard behind me a loud voice as of a trumpet, saying “I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last,” Also in Rev ch 22:13. As you mention in your response, the Jesus is called Lord, that is true, I agree, He is the Lord. However again in Rev 1:10 John said he was in the spirit of the LORD. and the Lord said he is the Alpha and Omega. That is God. In book of John when Jesus appeared to Thomas who was doubting his resurrection, when he saw Jesus, he kneeled before him and said ” My Lord and my God. In the Hebrew scriptures God has said that we cannot grasp His ways, his understandings. The trinity is One true God – the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. It is very hard to understand, to grasp, I admit, but its by faith and trying to follow His word, follow him is what I want to do, as you. It does seem however that one of the topics we do agree is that Jesus is the Messiah, who died for our sins and resurrected. And is to come again. This is Marianne just a friendly individual belief and opinion I am sharing back to you and you are to me and those who continue to read your website. Thank you for your input, your website, your thoughts. I look foward to reading more.
God Bless
R
Hi R,
This is the way I see it. I do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and that they are separate persons. I see them as all divine, but not necessarily equal. The traditional trinity concept makes them equal, so that is what I am getting at. Jesus said his Father was greater than he was, while he was here, then after his self sacrifice, the Father exalted him so that he could site beside him on the throne. Jesus still submits to his Father in heaven.
examples of what I am thinking:
If a king has a son, the prince, the son is royalty, as the Father is royal, but it is the king that rules the country. If the son comes among the people, he is still treated as representing the king. But the prince is not the king, but he still comes in full authority representing the crown.
If your father was the CEO of IBM, and he is human, then you are human too. However, this does not make you the CEO of IBM. Only your father is that.
In the old testament, the Israelites were interacting with the King, the CEO of Creation, who was God, and who was divine. When Messiah came, he made it clear he was not the CEO, but the son of the CEO, and he was submissive to the will of the CEO. As the son of God, this made him divine, but he was not his Father. The fact that he was submissive to the will of another meant there was some sort of hierarchy and he was “beneath” his father in authority. This made them unequal. However, as God’s son, he was still entitled to worship, just as a prince is entitled to honor, because he is royalty, as the son of a king.
Once Jesus completed his mission, the Father exalted him to a higher position, to the right side of his throne, which meant he was at a lower position beforehand.
If you look in a mirror, you see an image. The image is a 2 dimensional reflection of a 3 dimensional person. The image is not the same thing as what it is reflecting. I can touch the image on the mirror without ever touching you.
If Jesus is the “image” of God, then he is a reflection of a multidimensional Father God. The real Father has more dimensions than the image does. This is consistent with what Jesus said, that his Father was greater than he was. No one can see the Father, except Jesus, because he is too great to look upon. However, as Jesus is the son, he can “stand in front of the mirror, and become the “2 dimensional representation” of his father to present his father to the world.
Jesus is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. The father has no beginning and has no end.
Does this make sense? This is how I see it. I have seen the trinity – coequal persons- very well criticized by Jews and Muslims. I think Christians should think about this concept as much as they do, so they can give good answers to this concept. I see the trinity members as all divine, and powerful, but there is only one CEO.
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne.
Your examples are good. In my response, I turned to the Word of God, the Bible, He is real, doesnt lie, as we know. Here are the following scriprues: Deut. 6:4 -”Hear O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One!” John 10:30 “I and My Father are One.” John 1:1 “In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with Gog and the Word was God.” John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. I John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. Isiah 41:4 “Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the begining? I, the Lord, am the first; And with the last I am He. Rev. 1:17, 18 “And when I (John) saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.” Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given, And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” Matt 1:23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel, whis translated God with us.”
It is hard to grasp the trinity. At times I dont understand it. Jesus claimed he was the Son of God and sits at the right hand of God the Father, but Jesus also claimed He is One with God, is God. The bible is written by God, The One true Living, Honest God.
Thanks for response. God Bless
R
Hi R,
I wonder if we are saying the same thing, but in different words. God is one, God is unity of Father son and spirit.
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne. I feel the only difference we have really is our belief in the Trinity. From what you shared, your belief is that you dont believe that God the Father, the Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. I do believe in one God and that the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are one. As it says in the versus I shared from the Holy Bible. We both do agree that Jesus is the Messisah, the Saviour, who died for our us and resurrected and is to come again. Although it is hard to grasp the Trinity, but by faith I believe. Trust in God with all our heart and mind. He will guide us. take care of us. We both believe in the Father and Messiah.
Thank you for your response and continuig information on this website. God Bless
R
I like to think of the Trinity as one person, expressing Himself in three personalities.
A crude example: I am one women, but I an a daughter, a wife, and a mother — three personalities, three different roles, yet one.
HI Debbie
There seems to be different explanations for the Trinity. I guess Jesus did not want us to get bored for 2000 years, so he gave us a puzzle to think about, and keep us busy.
blessings
marianne
Hi Marianne.
We will not know everything until He comes again. It is revealed in his word as mention who God is, the Messiah is and is to come again. To Debbie if she reads this. Thanks for example. I have heard that before. There are other examples and metaphores I have heard. Again Its by faith, and the word of the BIble, God’s gift to us that says who he is. We as humans are not skilled nor can we comprehend His ways, but we just continue to seek Him and grow in his word and remember what He has done for us and will return again.
God Bless you all
R
Hi R
I agree. Just love Jesus, and keep the faith.
blessings
marianne
i didn’t read all the comments, but i just want to say this… rejection of the “oneness” of the three is heretical, yet rejection of the “threeness” of the three is equally heretical. those who suggest that Jesus is merely God wearing a different mask, are wrong.
we must acknowledge that scripture does also indicate a hierarchy between Jesus and God.
1 Cor 15:27For he [Jesus] hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he [Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Jesus].
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Jesus], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [Father (God)] that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God (Father) is “all in all”… top of the hierarchy.
and as an interesting side note, when someone called Jesus “good master”, Jesus replied, “why do you call me good? only one is good [His Father].”
hi Paul
I think you and I see the 3 and 1 the same way.
blessings
mrianne
Hi Marianne
and greetings to Paul. As I last replied, We are not skilled nor can comprehen God’s ways, even understand the Trinity, nor will we understand until He comes again for His followers. I refer to the Bible, God’s Word. I cant fully understand how God can be 3 persons but One God, however He is God, the creater, the saviour, our Lord. He can do whatever he wants. It is in the Word, the Bible of who he is. Its faith and continuing to grow and be guided the Holy Spirit that we are to simply turn to. Father, The Son, the Holy Spirit = One God. I share this, I believe and accept the Trinity as One, respectfully I share this in hopes of not offending. We seem to do believe in Jesus as the Messiah and that He is the only Way, the Truth. He died for us so that we may have a chance for eternal life in Heaven.
Thank you. God Bless
r
Hi R,
Some things are hard to understand with the human mind. The next post, if I can ever get it finished, has to do with being “in” Christ who is “in” the Father, and how this may relate to oneness. but it is just a theory.
We just need to trust in Jesus, and when we get to heaven, we will understand better.
Have a blessed day
marianne
[[If you look in a mirror, you see an image. The image is a 2 dimensional reflection of a 3 dimensional person. The image is not the same thing as what it is reflecting. I can touch the image on the mirror without ever touching you.
If Jesus is the “image” of God, then he is a reflection of a multidimensional Father God. The real Father has more dimensions than the image does. This is consistent with what Jesus said, that his Father was greater than he was. No one can see the Father, except Jesus, because he is too great to look upon. However, as Jesus is the son, he can “stand in front of the mirror, and become the “2 dimensional representation” of his father to present his father to the world. ]]
That was very interesting.
Father is God in God form! Jesus is the same God in human form(one dimension of God). Holy Spirit is the same God in spirit form(another dimension of God).
Some explain trinity this way. Sun – father. Light from sun -Jesus. Heat from the sun – Holy Spirit.
Hi Golda
I guess there are different ways to try to understand a God that is beyond our understanding. The blessing is in the quest!
marianne
WOW! My head is spinning.
There are some “thinkers” in this crowd. Although important to know who the Word is, how does one make the jump from the Word being defined as a person to the Word being defined as a book?
http://37stories.wordpress.com.
Thanks for the help, Marianne.
On the hunt in Texas,
Archie
Hi Marianne;
I read your comments on your blog and followed it here.
Years ago in my late twenties and early thirties I came up with different methods to explain the Trinity and almost had myself convinced.
Then I found out how Constantine and the Council of Nicaea in 325 basically ratified the Trinity as it were, and some bishops who attended had second thoughts after.
However Constantine was a Roman Emperor and they were not to be trifled with.
When the hand of man and politics get this involved in God’s business, it will become corrupt, like pork barreling is to Congress.
My conclusion is that God had no intention of making it this difficult, nor has God intended to switch game plans 2,000 years ago.
Jesus understood much more than most in his day and I believe he promoted and taught that you don’t need an intermediary to relate or speak to God as he said, “when you pray go into the closet and pray in secret and He will hear you”
That makes more sense than anything else.
hi Ichabod,
There is only one God, and that is the Father. Jesus said so, and it says so elsewhere in the bible, but people read right past it, because they are conditioned to accept the trinity proposed by the catholic church. Since then, we have defied the oneness of God, and alienated both the Muslims and the Jews on this.
There is a hierarchy in heaven. The Father is the God that all things come from. Jesus prayed to the Father, and instructed us to do so also.
Jesus and the holy spirit exist in heaven with the Father God, but the Father is the “boss.” Jesus said his Father was greater than He was. The holy spirit only speaks what he hears the Father say. Jesus and the holy spirit are above the angels in essence and authority, and share the divine nature of God, but they are “less” than the Father God.
Christians need to back to what Jesus said, and that will clear things up.
blessings
marianne
What was before the Universe was made? And is the place “heaven” is invisible like an entry which have locked up?
But anyway, what things were before God was born?
R gave many good scriptures above. Here are just two more or many.
Philippians 2:5-11
“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”.
Jesus is NOT a created being, he is God, and was in the begining with God (John 1:1)
He was the creator in Colossians 1:16
“For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him”
You say that, “Word # 1 is the Father God, and Word #2 is Jesus. Once this is understood, it is easier to read and interpret. Jesus is the Word of God, but so is the Father the Word of God. Both are being discussed here. Jesus receives the Word from the Father, and then transfers the Word to us.”
What you are saying doesn’t make any sense and in reality Jesus is the Word referred to in John 1. Taking other scriptures and forcing a meaning on them that doesn’t exist does not support your position that there are two Words.
Take the scripture John 1:1,2 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
It is quite obvious if you take this verse in context that the Word refers to Christ and the God refers to God the Father. Any other explanation just doesn’t make any logical sense.
In the beginning was the Word(Jesus),
“Jesus was with God in the beginning he is the Alpha and the Omega”
and the Word(Jesus) was with God,
“This confirms that the Word is Jesus who was with God from the beginning.”
and the Word(Jesus) was God.
“This assertion states the deity of Christ and that Jesus is God.”
2He(Jesus) was with God in the beginning.
“Again, confirming that he(Jesus) was with God the Father in the beginning.”
There are not 2 Words but only 1 which is Jesus. The scripture in Greek shows that there is only 1 rendition of the Word and not two.
εν αρχη ην ο λογος(Word) και ο λογος(Word) ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος(Word)
Again, the Word refers to Jesus who was with God in the beginning. This is very important to understand and not twist around since the deity of Jesus is at stake. Anything less than this amounts to heresy since the understanding of Jesus as God and the trinity is the basic foundational beliefs of Christianity.
DEar Contender
It also says that no one has seen God, except the Son. I makes the Son and God different.
You do not understand my definitions because you have not read the links.
Jesus is divine, but the Father is “God.
The words of Jesus himself, as he prayed to his Father in heaven:
The Father is God, and Jesus is Lord.
The point here is not that no one has seen God except the Son but who is referred to in John 1 as the Word. It is perfectly clear that the Word refers to Christ.
The three persons of the trinity are equal and Jesus is God.
Colossians 2:8-10 NIV
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
1 Timothy 2:5,6 NIV
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.
1 Timothy 3:16 NIV
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[c] appeared in a body,[d]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.
Colossians 1:15-17 NIV
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
According to Athenagoras in 160 AD:
“they hold the Father to be God, and the Son God, and the Holy Spirit, and declare their union and their distinction in order.”
According to Clement of Alexandria in 190 AD:
“I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.”
“There was then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreated.”
Also, you keep saying “You do not understand my definitions because you have not read the links.”
I have read some of your links but not all. I’ve read enough to understand what you are trying to say. However, your definitions don’t stand the test against the Bible. Who am I supposed to believe and follow, you and your definitions or God and the Bible? Enough said.
I think we can explain this with the definition of Electromagnetic wave.
Electromagnetic radiation (often abbreviated E-M radiation or EMR) is a form of energy that exhibits wave-like behavior as it travels through space. EMR has both electric and magnetic field components, which oscillate in phase perpendicular to each other and perpendicular to the direction of energy propagation. (Wikipedia)
Consider Electic field component as Father, Magnetic Field component as Jesus and the direction of propagation as the Holy Spirit.
Electromagnetic wave is a single wave.
However, it contain three different components.
If any one of the component is absent, then there does not exist an Electromagnetic wave.
Hence we cannot separate them.
That have their own identity. However, it will become one wave if and only if the three components are present.
As Jesus was representing a Son in Earth, it was Jesus’ duty to be submissive to the Father God (Please note that they together represent the God).
As Holy spirit was representing a messenger and teacher from God in the Earth, the holy spirit was also appeared to be submissive to the Father.
However, we cannot separate them and we cannot give a Hierarchy.
Fire-Heat-Light is an example.
Fire cannot exist without Heat and light.
But we can study about light and heat separately.
Since, heat and Light are originated from Fire, surely they will tell Fire is the source of our existence.
However, the three were made at the same time.
It is the different experiences of the God by the World.
There is independent existences, so, that we can study separately.
However, we cannot separate them or give separate Hierarchy.
Thanks.
Sajan.
hi Sajan
That is a good analysis.
The only hierarchy I would refer to is the one Jesus mentioned, that the Father was greater than he was, and that he only did what the Father willed him to do.
Since Jesus was submissive to the Father, this implies some sort of inequality in place, and it might have meant only for the time Jesus was on earth. Or maybe it also applies to the heavenly relationship as well, but we cannot really understand this, because we are not in heaven to see this.
Aside from this, Jesus has all the power of the Godhead.
What he meant by that statement may possibly only be understood once we reach heaven, and witness this relationship first hand.
Marianne,
The only thing we can tell is,
Jesus and Holy spirit were submissive to the father when they acted in the earth on different occasions, since they came from the God.
That doesn’t conclude that the same Hierarchy is existing in the heaven.
We can study independently about Fire, Heat and Light.
But we cannot separate them.
If we are separating them, there is no existence for the Fire.
But we can study the properties of each expression separately.
A normal person can feel the fire as such.
Fire, Light, Heat.
A blind person will tell Fire is Heat.
A person without sensation in his skin will tell Fire is light.
But scientifically, we know that Fire is a plasma form of Energy, which can produce different type of energies like heat and light.
Thus we should conclude the simple Fire as a mystery, since we can’t go beyond a limit to express such a phenomena by words.
See the definition of Fire:
Fire is the rapid oxidation of a material in the chemical process of combustion, releasing heat, light, and various reaction products.
The flame is the visible portion of the fire and consists of glowing hot gases. If hot enough, the gases may become ionized to produce plasma.[2] Depending on the substances alight, and any impurities outside, the color of the flame and the fire’s intensity will be different.
(Wikipedia)
Then too, they can’t include all the features and specialties of Fire with this definition.
Then how we will explain the almighty with our words???
Please think about that.
God doesn’t have any language.
So we cannot explain or define God with any of the Language.
Language is human creation.
We cannot limit God to any of the Human creation, as man is a creation of God.
We can tell like “God is an experience”.
He is beyond definitions.
Maximum we can tell is “this is not the exact God=Neti Neti” (Sanskrit an Indian Language)
The only person in the wold who know completely about God is Jesus Christ, since he was the image of God, or he was the God.
From Jesus what we understood is ” God is Love”
Then we should define what is love.
Now, we cannot express love with words, since it is beyond human definitions, language and words.
Love is an experience.
Now we cannot explain, what is an experience.
Thus what I understood is,
as simple human beings, we cannot define or explain this kind of silly things by our words.
even if we define there should be some limitations.
Then how can we define God??
Again, we reached the same position where we begin.
God is a mystery, because he is beyond our explanations.
Thanks.
Sajan
sajan
accepted. some things we just cannot explain. things that are too high for us to really understand. we are not denied salvation because of this lack of understanding. but we are blessed when we seek god and spend time in his word.