You will have Tribulation 10 days

 

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What did Jesus mean?

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Tradition states that the time of trouble ahead for us is called “tribulation,” and it will last 7 years.

This tradition comes from (1) Daniel’s last week, where the antichrist breaks a covenant in the middle of the week. We assume this is a continuous week.

It also comes from (2) a comment Jesus made, while with his disciples. Jesus used the word “tribulation”:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Here, Jesus did not give a specific length of time for the “tribulation.”

However, Jacob’s trouble only lasts 3 ½ years, not 7 years.

Daniel does not discuss what happens before or after the 3 ½ years specifically.

He does mention other end time events, but does not give how long they last.

The Book of Revelation does not state that it takes place in 7 years.

Only in a few places does it mention either the 3 ½ years, or a plague that will last 5 months, etc. Nothing there in Revelation adds up to 7 years.

7 years may be part of what is going on, but it does not seem to represent everything.

When Jesus speaks to the martyrs, he says they will have Tribulation 10 days.

So why 10?

The answer is, I am not sure!

Even in Deuteronomy, the latter days are mentioned, but there is no length of time indicated:

Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shall be obedient unto his voice;

Deu 4:31   (For the LORD thy God [is] a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he swore unto them.

If we were to take the message of Jesus literally, then maybe the church at Smyrna in the latter days would go through a quick 10 days of suffering, since death comes quickly, once the enemy is in control, and he is going to kill you.

Or, it could mean 10 years.

Possibly, there is a 10 year tribulation period, in which the first 6 ½- 7 years are a warning period.

Events slowly build up, with rest periods for repentance, to a climax.

This is followed by a more intense period of 3 ½ years.

Although I do not commit myself to the year 2011, I will use this as an example:

If 9-11-2001 is the start of the 10 years, then 10 years later would be 2011.

Another view is that Jesus was referring to 10 signs before the end. I put the reference here, where this is discussed:

http://www.rapturechrist.com/timeline_tribulation.htm

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God has a tendency to give many warnings before he does anything. But when he finally acts, he acts quickly.

Could we be at the end of a warning period, and are about to experience the more intense period?

The dates are not as important as our preparedness. Are we ready?


178 Responses to “You will have Tribulation 10 days”

  1. [...] will have Tribulation 10 days What did Jesus mean? Click here for [...]

    • Marriane, This may or may not answer the question of a 10 year Tribulation vice 7 years. Please bare with me. I have come to the conclusion that the Rapture of the Church does not start the Tribulation. My thinking is this:

      God has continually rehearsed the feasts of Israel for centuries, with the Hebrew nation. All in readiness for the ultimate fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah. The first four feasts were all fulfilled within the allotted time frame as structured in the scriptures, ie; Jesus died on Passover, was buried on the day of unleavened bread and rose on the day of First Fruits. And the Holy Spirit was given, 50 days later, at Pentecost (the fourth fulfilled feast). The next feast was Rosh Hoshanna approximately 3 months later, but God has mysteriously delayed fulfillment of the next three feasts.

      Let’s put the fifth feast, Rosh Hoshanna, aside for awhile and go to the sixth feast that happens 10 days after Rosh Hoshanna; Yom Kippur.

      If we attribute the day, spoken of in Revelations when Jesus appears in the sky and saves Israel from destruction, as their ultimate “Day of Atonement”, then we could probably assume it will be on Yom Kippur. And if we assume the tribulation lasts 7 years (concurrently), then we might conclude that since the tribulation ends on Yom Kippur then it must begin 7 years earlier on the same feast day. We may also conclude that the sixth and last feast (the Feast of Tabernacles) will be fulfilled as Jesus “Tabernacles” with us for a thousand years.

      Now, let’s consider Rosh Hoshanna (the Feast of Trumpets). How will that feast be fulfilled? As you probably know, some think it might be the day of the Rapture, but it is also said know one knows the “day” or “hour”.

      It should be noted that the Feast of Trumpets can only start when a minimum of two witness spot the new moon, which is difficult to detect. The day or hour to begin Rosh Hoshanna cannot be known until the new moon is spotted. That is why the feast is celebrated for 2 days because the new moon may not be detected on the first day.

      Anyways, most Christians have been taught to believe that the Tribulation begins at the Rapture of the Church. But, if Yom Kippur starts the tribulation, as discussed above, and the Rapture occurs on Rosh Hoshanna, then there is a 10 day gap between the Rapture (Rosh Hoshanna) and the start of the Tribulation, on Yom Kippur.

      Another interesting thought is that since there is such a great gap (centuries) between the fulfillment of Pentecost and the awaited fulfillment of Rosh Hoshanna, what is stopping us from considering that there could be a considerable gap (at least several years) between Rosh Hoshanna and the start of the Tribulation.

      In other words; if there were a 3 year (plus 10 days) delay, between the fulfillment of Rosh Hoshanna (the Rapture) and the day the 7 year Tribulation starts (on a Yom Kippur feast day) then the Tribulation would end 10 years and 10 days after the Rapture; on the day Jesus returns and fulfills the last Yom Kippur Feast day. I hope this helps with your theory of a 10 year Tribulation. Thankyou, and May God Bless.

      Mike Gonzales

      • Dear Mike,
        This is my understanding as well. I assume that you are not coming from a Jewish background, so where did you learn about the feasts? I am seeking to draw on the knowledge of others in his matter in order to test what I have learned so far. I was hoping to see responses to your post both for and against. Thanks for sharing your post. I am always troubled when I am the only one with a particular idea. It is nice to see I am not way out there alone.

      • I know this was written a year ago, but it does make alot of sense…I also found this on Yom kippur and remembered the HS telling me to learn the Jewish Holidays. I think that ALOT of unanswered questions regarding His return will be found within the jewish holidays…I noticed this and thought it made sense to the Tribulation and G-Ds wrath…”By Yom Kippur the 40 days of repentance, that begin with the first of Elul, have passed. On Rosh Hashanah G-d has judged most of mankind and has recorded his judgement in the Book of Life. But he has given a 10 day reprieve.

        On Yom Kippur the Book of Life is closed and sealed. Those that have repented for their sins are granted a good and happy New Year.”

        http://www.holidays.net/highholydays/yom.htm

      • Ten days also implies completeness… Therefore making your trial of tribulation complete. Perhaps this means that if you endure to the end of what ever you are being tried for you will come out triumphant and ready for the masters’ use. I would say that if a man is faithful in all ten of Gods Ten Commandments He is a complete man. To arrive to even a better conclusion we must compare other scripture and its context to see hot this fits in Gods plan for the end times.

  2. Marianne ,
    I am not sure either, why 10 days … but I think that The Lord when He makes a covenant it is perpetual.
    Moses was unto the Hebrews like God, because Moses DID what was pleasing to God.
    Elohim God Gave The Torah and as Yeshua says It is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than one little title of the Law…
    There are 10 Commandments of God.
    If you break one of these ….
    But if you have broken them all …

    Just by breaking one of the Commandments you have broken them ALL!
    Thus my understanding of the verse is in regard to the 10 commandments.

  3. It can be 10 commandments… But again, need to stop and think… why 10 days ? Can human survive more than 10 days under bruality and abuse and worse ? Must think on that. Because no one can survivie 10 days of suffering human in flesh.. if it has been beaten or burned or worse.. it send the shock wave of pain throughout the nerves in the body and causing heart to pump faster and harder until it surrenders. I hate to explain details because it kinda cause me to feel everything what others suffer. *sigh* But I had to put in this for you.. just in case for more insight.. maybe ? If I am wrong, then Elohim is welcome to correct me anytime :) Big hugs to you all.. and pray always.

    Tamera

    • Hi Tamera

      I think even 10 days is too long. Even Jesus could not endure one day. It might take 10 days to get all the victims.

      The Days of Awe in the Fall ( Jewish holiday) is 10 days long.

  4. Christians remaining faithful to God shall have tribulation 10 days. Thay can take your physical life, but not your spiritual soul. But in the end times when Satan is on the earth, he cannot hurt the faithful to God (The ones with the seal of God which is the knowledge of God’s Truth). He can tempt them with the flood of his lies, but that is it. When he kills the two witnesses, there will be 3 and 1/2 days till the return of Christ.

  5. I need to clarify again. You will have tribulation no more than ten days, but you cannot be killed by Satan. This is to what I saied above.

  6. I think with a closer look you may find that Apostle John’s vision was not only prophetic to the early church, but also serves us as history today. The seven literal churches of John’s day represent the seven types of churches that exist today. The letter to the church of Smyrna in Rev. 2:8-11 is referred to as “the persecuted church”. In fact a historical account of this church shows TEN “ages” or periods of time of persecution from A.D. 54 to A.D. 305 under TEN different rulers from Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Severus, Maximinius, Decius, Valerian, Aurelian, and Diocletian. I believe that the ten tribulation days are referring to the persecutions of the Smyrna church age and not the Great Tribulation of which you are referring.

  7. hi Marianne,

    The days of Awe or the days of Repentance as you know are one and the same leading to the Atonement.
    The ten days of tribulation could very well be the ten days of Repentance.

    It is written in Daniel … speaking unto the king …
    Dan 1:12
    Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.

    And in psalms David says unto The Lord …
    Psa 26:2
     
    Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart.

    This should all be our Prayer.
    Examine me, O Lord, and prove me!
    Try my reins and my heart.

    For myself I know that my repentance is deep
    which brings me closer to Him.
    And yes this robe ( my flesh) will be dressed in His righteousness.

    I have seen many speculations on the church of Syrmna …
    But be though faithful ….
    unto death …
    Requires the recipient of The Crown of Life
    To be faithful … UNTO …….. God.
    Unto the death of the old nature.
    Which can only be accomplished individually by obedience unto The Law,
    For at is written The letter of The Law …. Kills….
    But the Spirit of God Almighty gives Life.
    So we must !!!! all come to repentance to enter the Atonement.
    Of which we have The Lord our High Priest!
    Who is in charge of The Atonement.

    The Perfect Law of God.
    And The Perfect Will of God.

  8. I’d like to add: There are Four types of churches, I believe, that are in existence today. They are: Thyatira, Sardis, Laodicea and Philadelphia. Now, here is a question for your readers: Which of these will continue beyond the rapture?

    • Ian,

      You are answering your own question.
      ‘Which of these will CONTINUE beyond the rapture?’
      To me your question makes no sense.
      1- continue what? where?
      2- Who says there are ‘four types of churches?’
      3- types of what?

      Sorry as a reader I cannot help you with an answer.
      Because you already have answered your question.

  9. The book of Revelation begins with the revelation of Christ. It is Jesus who tells John to write to the angels of the SEVEN churches beginning with the angel of the church in Ephesus (Rev. 2:1) Those seven churches were in existence in John’s day, however, today only four of those churches remain, as I stated.
    I believe we are living in the “Church Age” or the “age of grace”. The next age to come will be the “Tribulation Age”. The tribulation will take place AFTER the rapture of the true church. So, the question is, which of these four remaining churches will continue into the tribulation? I am interested in feedback from all readers…

  10. The rapture is also referred to as the “blessed hope”. This “hope” is referred to in Titus 2:13. There are more than three hundred Bible references to the Second Coming of Christ. When these references are carefully examined, it becomes clear that there are two phases to His return. THERE ARE FAR TOO MANY CONFLICTING ACTIVITIES CONNECTED WITH HIS RETURN TO BE MERGED INTO A SINGLE SECOND COMING. There are in fact about twenty four passages that refer to the Rapture in the New Testament. and about the same number dealing only with the Second Coming. The Rapture of the church has to happen prior to the signing of the peace treaty, which according to scripture, marks the beginning of the reign of the Antichrist and the seven year tribulation period.

    • Who says that the rapture HAS to happen prior to the signing of a peace …??
      It is not the rapture that signifies the beginning of Tribulation.

    • Also what conflicting activities??

    • I believe in Pre Wrath rapture. Believers will see/go through tribulation. Rapture will happen at the 7th trumpet and second coming at the end of 7th vial of wrath.

    • the bible says “that day” will not come UNTIL the man of sin is revealed, therefore the rapture must happen after the antichrist is revealed.

  11. AGAIN, NO ONE ‘ERE KNOWS HIS BIBLE!

    10 DAYS OF AFFLICTION = TEN DAYS OF AWE
    TEN DAYS OF AWE = FROM YOM TERUAH TO YOM KIPPUR

    You can see it for example in this calendar:

    http://www.michaelroodministries.com/pdf/6009_Cal_Biblical_Hebrew_Calendar.pdf

    • the ten days of awe are ten days between jesus 2nd coming on the day of trumpets (tishri 1) when israel looks on him whom they have pierced and the day of atonement when their sins are atoned for(tishri 10) the ten days of awe are not days of persecution but days of repentance for israel.

      • Todd,

        Why do you think Jesus would call the 10 days of awe = tribulation of 10 days? Tribulation is not the same word as repentance. Do you think it is due to the Greek translation of the words Jesus used?

        • Jesus didn’t call the days of awe = tribulation of 10 days. Jesus (or the bible for that matter) doesn’t mention the days of awe. the TEN days Include TWO days of Trumpets, ONE day of Atonement and SEVEN days between them.

  12. Hello Abigail:
    You are correct in saying “it is not the rapture that signifies the beginning of the Tribulation”. In fact, it is the signing of the Peace Treaty that triggers the Tribulation. Daniel 9:27
    The conflicting activities are many: i.e. 1 Thessalonians 4:16, John 14: 1-3, I Corinthians 15:52, I Thessalonians 4:17 are a few examples of ‘Rapture events”, whereby Matt 24:29, Rev. 19:11, Matt 24:30, Rev 19:19, Rev 19: 19-21 are referring to the “Events of the glorious appearing”
    Even a casual reading of these scriptures reveals that they describe two totally different events. One is a select coming for His church, a great source of comfort for those involved; the other is a public appearance when every eye shall see Him, a great source of regret and mourning for those whose Day of Judgment has come. Study and imagine, if you can, that these events are simultaneous; you will see that there must be a period of time between them. Seven years would allow sufficient time for all these things and the tribulation to take place. The coming of Christ must occur in two installments because they are for two different groups of people and fulfill two different purposes. The first is for the Rapture, the second is for all the people of the world, who will be judged for rejecting Christ. The first is secret, for a special group; the second is public, for everyone else left on the earth. They are entirely distinct events!

    • Hi Ian,

      Where exactly in Scriptures does the great Tribulation starts?
      This is probably the most discussed issue in Christianity.
      Some say the tribulation have started.
      Some say the tribulation have already passed.
      Others say it is the peace treaty of Israel that is the sign.
      Yet others say it is the revelation of the antichrist.
      Others say it is the opening of the first seal.
      Amazingly all these theorists have Scriptures to back their theories.
      And since all of these are opinions …
      and confusing opinions at that …
      it leaves the seeker wondering ////????

      Everyone has their argument and their confusion.
      Maybe The Lord will surprise us all.

      But I will share with you what I think …
      The Great Tribulation starts with The four angels that holds the four winds.
      As long as these are holding the four winds of destruction there is no
      tribulation.
      as it is written that The Lord will gather His Elect from the four corners of the world.
      But now when these four angels are commanded to let The winds blow…
      then The rule of Thunder starts.
      It is the winds of the four corners of the world that initiates the beginning
      of the Great Tribulation.

  13. Hi Abigail,
    What do you think God wants us to know? The theorists all have their opinions, but they all can’t be true. God must have wanted his followers to learn Bible prophecy, because He dedicated almost 30 percent of His Scripture to it. Not only does prophecy teach us about future events, it also assures us that God keeps His word and His promises.
    The Bible also warns of false teachers who mislead and are greatly responsible for the coming apostasy. (2 Peter 2:1-22, 2 Timothy 3:1-9)
    So, you are right to say: “Everyone has their argument and their confusion.” The true test then, is that what we believe must stand up to the test of the scriptures. Once the true light of scripture is unveiled, then those with incorrect “pet theories” must submit to the truth and abandon their error.
    You believe: “It is the winds of the four corners of the world that initiates the beginning of the Great Tribulation.” and “As long as these are holding the four winds of destruction there is no tribulation.”
    OK, but does it stand up to the test of scripture?
    Revelation 7:1 says “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind should blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.” In other words, there is a dead still over all the earth.
    So, you say this is the beginning of the Great Tribulation. You have placed this after the sixth seal had been broken by Christ.
    When this seal is broken, “there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.” Rev. 6:12-13. The rest of this chapter goes on to describe some real horrific, cataclysmic events. This sounds like tribulation to me.
    However, if you believe that the tribulation is divided into two periods, each being 3 1/2 years long; then you have placed the Great Tribulation somewhere along the first period, possibly about sixteen months into the beginning of the tribulation. I think you are incorrect, because you have not considered the seventh seal nor the seven trumpet judgments, or the placement of the bowl judgments.
    Please understand, I am not criticizing you, but seeking the truth. Please tell me what you think the scriptures are saying here.
    God Bless,
    Ian

    • Hi Ian ,

      Theorist have a platform.
      I don’t.

      The four angels are holding the four winds.
      They are told specifically …
      Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor any tree.
      Therefore the winds that the four angels are holding back,
      so that it should not blow
      on the the earth neither the sea nor any tree
      are winds of doom.

      Then we see by the first (wind instrument)
      Trumpet …
      1/3 of trees burnt and green grass burnt (trees)
      The second (wind instrument) trumpet …
      1/3 of the sea creatures died and ships destroyed (sea)
      And so forth … to the fourth angel.
      If you look carefully you will see that the last three angels
      have different voices.

      There is a difference between the Seals and The Trumpets.
      The Seals are opened in Heaven by The Lamb of God.
      The Trumpets are blown on the earth by the Seven Angels of Fire.
      Now I will stop here.
      Because I am very fearful to speak further on these Holy Matters.

      But I will add here to anyone …
      ‘Fear God!!!’

    • hi Ian,

      This is just my view, but I consider NOT the “tribulation” but the Time of Jacob’s trouble as 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. I try not to use the word “tribulation,” because of different definitions of it.

      If you look in Rev 6:16-17, after the 6th seal, it says that the time of wrath has started. I consider this a time for the wicked only, and the saints have gone by then. Maybe this is the other 3 1/2 years. I am not sure. It does not give a time period for it in Revelation.

      6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

      Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

  14. AFTER the tribulation the angels gather the elect with a trumpot..thats the rapture,,,the elect,,favorite ones..In Revelation the ones who had not worshipped the beast were beheaded, they are a part of the first resurrection…and the dead and Christ shall rise first, THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND ARE LEFT SHALL JOIN HIM IN THE AIR. How many first resurrections are there? ONLY ONE! Trumpet call, gather the elect as the Lord comes back..gee its not rocket science…..yes the rapture takes place at the end, wich is why Jesus said that he who stands firm to the end will be saved…Also revlation: the Lord says that he is coming like a thief at armageddon, the place where the frogs are sent out–he says, blessed is he who keeps his clothes on behold I come like a thief…TO ALL YOU WHO BELIEVE IN THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE…HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS VERSE??????????????

    FINALLY PAUL SAYS THAT Conerning the coming and our being gathered to meet the Lord in the air–THE RAPTURE—dont let anyone fool you THAT THE DAY OF THE LORD HAS TAKEN PLACE…so the rapture happens on the day of the Lord, watever that is…and later Paul says that THAT DAY CANNOT HAVE HAPPENED UNLESS YOU SEE THE APOSTASY AND THE MAN OF SIN REVEALED!

    • do you know to whom Jesus said “he whom stands firm until the end will be saved? not the church. Jesus ministry was to “the lost sheep of Israel” (He said it himself). the church was a “mystery” which wasn’t revealed until the apostle Paul (He said it himself also). the tribulation is a seven year period that was decreed by God for Daniel’s people and city (Israel and Jerusalem), not the church. Matthew 24 is directed toward Israel only, not the church. How many first resurrections are there? well, if you read the gospels, at Jesus resurrection, the old testament saints were resurrected. were they the first, or will we be the first? maybe first doesn’t mean what you think it does. the church could be raptured soon after the man of sin is revealed. I thessalonians tells us when he comes as a thief in the night: when people are saying “peace and safety.” this doesn’t sound like the end of the tribulation. just because the thief in the night verse is inserted in the verses about armageddom, doesn’t mean it happens at that time. he is saying, “make sure you don’t miss my coming as a thief, or your nakedness will be exposed when during armageddon, when he destroys all those who are not clothed. i personally haven’t decided when the rapture takes place (i’ve been studying it for 20 years a keep finding new info). but don’t be arrogant. it isn’t rocket science, but it isn’t as simple as you believe.

  15. Hi Abigail:
    The seal judgments occur in roughly the first twenty-one months of the Tribulation, the trumpet judgments take place in the second twenty-one months. In the first period of the Tribulation the earth has know the wrath of the Antichrist; now (with the trumpet judgments)it will begin to feel the wrath of the Almighty God. These first two segments of the Tribulation period covers forty-two months (3 1/2 years) According to scripture, there is still another 3 1/2 years to go to complete the tribulation age. I agree, “fear God!”

  16. Thank You, Marianne for the post and all the comments left by fellow brother and sisters in Christ. I do believe in the Pre Great Tribulation rapture of the Faithful (Church “people”). I do believe the Church will go through a Tribulation period, before the Great Tribulation. I have no idea when the rapture will occur, but to be ready every second of this physical life. I may be here for it or I may have physically passed from this Earth. Either way, I am Blessed!

  17. Hello Allen Brooks,
    Just wanted to respond to your comments…You have lumped a bunch of events into a common pot. To say the “elect” are “favorite ones” is true in the sense of anyone who accepts Christ as Lord. The references to the “elect” are primarily found in the epistles. The reference you are referring to “the angels gather the elect with a trumpet” is a quote from Matthew 24:31. Mark described the same event as the assembling of the elect both from earth and heaven (Mark 13:27) So I believe you are correct to say that all of the elect (or the saved) include: Old Testament saints, saved Israel,the church, and the saints of the Tribulation period leading up to the Second Coming. Some will need to be resurrected from the dead, such as the martyrs (Rev. 20:4-6) and the OLD Testament saints (Dan. 12.2) However, the church was resurrected, or translated, earlier, at the time of the Rapture. At the second coming of Christ no child of God will be left unresurrected or unrestored, but all will share in the millennial kingdom. It may not be rocket science, but it does take relentless study to verify what is truth.
    You believe that the Rapture will take place at the second coming or “The Day of The Lord” -this is referred to the yo-yo type of Rapture (snatched up to come right back down) The problem with this theory is that it is not in tune with scripture, whereby 1) The Lord Himself promised to deliver us. (Rev 3:10) 2) The Church is to be delivered from the wrath to come. (1Thess. 1:10) 3) Christians are not appointed to wrath. 1Thess. 5:9) 4) The church is absent in Revelation 4 through 18

    Revelation 16:15 is the verse you are alluding to when you asked “HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS VERSE??????????????”
    The verse is referring to those who are still unprepared or “naked and exposed” as far as God’s righteousness is concerned. This surviving remnant of saved individuals are being warned that it’s not over yet, so be prepared so that the continuance of God’s judgment does not catch them unaware.
    Finally, your last comment regarding Paul’s letters to the Thessalonians. He was instructing these brethren of ours not to listen to the false teachers of their day, who were trying to scare them by saying that the rapture had already taken place. Paul comforts them with the truth (read 1Thess. 4:17) At the Rapture believers are caught up to heaven. At the Second Coming believers remain on earth. “According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep… (1Thess. 4:15) This will be followed by the trumpet call of God. When this sounds, the event will take place. Christians who have died first will rise first. Then, Christians still living, being translated into bodies suited for heaven, “we will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (v. 17)

    • Ian,

      John, in the writings of the ‘Revelation’ appears to make a distinction between
      ‘the Servants’ and ‘the Saints’.
      ‘The Elect’ of The Lord seems to be the ‘few are chosen’.

      Many are called but … few are chosen.
      Those that are chosen are ‘Hand picked’.

    • p. s.

      A chosen vessel of The Lord for His purpose.
      God has chosen the weak, the despised, the foolish, the base things of this world to confound the wise.
      The Elect are called, chosen and faithful.
      And so they are with The Lord.

  18. Abigail,
    Yes indeed there is a distinction between the Servants and the Saints. You will find that those whom make up the church are referred to as Saints. In the tribulation age, God refers to His Servants and Bond-Servants alike. Both of these “types” are still considered “elect”, yet the distinction is made for those who make up the “Bride of Christ” are those saints of His church.

    • The word ‘Saints ‘ is mentioned 96 times in Scriptures. From Deu. 33 : 2
      to Rev. 20 : 9. And so I do not find evidence that the ‘Saints’ refers
      specifically to the ‘Church.’
      Unless of course you understand the word ‘church’ as assembly.

      The word ‘Servants’ always refers to ‘the Servants the Prophets of God’.
      All throughout the Scriptures The Lord God refers to Both;
      The Servants and the Saints.
      The ‘ Elect’ is always singular.
      So as you say Ian … ‘both of these ‘types’ are considered “elect” ,,, is wrong.
      And I must here add that as you say …’Bride of Christ’ are those saints of
      His church’ is wrong as well.

      What seems to be a problem with this ‘theory’ … is that someone …
      at some time … started a false concept and it was simply accepted as true …
      and it is not.
      I suggest that you further study … with a clean slate, because it seems to me that
      you have received a false doctrine.
      I am not stating this to your hurt but as you said much earlier in this post …
      ‘please understand I am not critizing you but seeking the truth’.

      • p.s.
        Psa 79:2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given [to be] meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

        The distinction is very pronounce in this verse.

  19. Psalm 79:2 is speaking to his “chosen people” the Jews. This Psalm of Asaph, put into context, is asking that God avenge those who have defiled Jerusalem prior to it’s destruction in A.D. 70. I don’t understand the connection you are trying to make.

    • The ‘chosen people’ of God is neither Jew nor Gentile.
      I see this often and it is sad.

      • As it is written:
        Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

  20. Sounds like we differ on a lot of issues…

    In the Old Testament the Jews are regarded as God’s chosen. We, that is I am assuming that you are a, Gentiles were later included to become “adopted” sons of God. The scripture says that the “good news” of the gospel was to the “Jew first and then also to the Greek” (Gentiles) So there still remains a distinction although we (as Gentiles) have been included.
    In another stream of thought, I am interested to know of your background and your personal testimony if you are willing to share it here. Thank you.

    • Ian,

      I don’t wish to differ … but I see that we do differ.
      I know you were taught by ‘man’ … by what you present.
      Truth is Spirit and not intellectually known.

      Jacob is chosen of God.
      Jerusalem is chosen of God.
      The Holy Prophets are all chosen of God.
      The Apostles are chosen of God.
      David is chosen of God.
      Moses is chosen of God.
      We who believe are the seeds of God.
      Abraham and Sarah believed.
      Those of faith and judgement and mercy are of God.
      These and us are all neither Jew nor Gentile.

      The Good News is Good because it comes from God.
      The Resurrection is The Good News.
      The Stranger who accepted The Covenant is now a Jew.
      We do not seek an earthly kingdom …
      but we do belong to The Holy Jerusalem, The Bride of God …
      The Gates are twelve and The Foundations are twelve.
      But they are the same city.
      And Christ is its’ Light.

      Just so you understand Ian… I will repeat …
      You enter by the gate and it is upheld by the foundation.

      • In another stream of light …
        My testimony …. I think it is too long to tell and I wouldn’t know where to start. :)

  21. Abigail,
    You stated: “Truth is Spirit and not intellectually known.”

    What does this mean? Are you referring to 1John 5:7? If you are then you have reversed it’s meaning, because it says: “And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH.”

    Jesus said: “If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32

    There is no Bible reference for your statement that I can find, can you please clarify.

  22. 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

    The things of The Spirit of God.
    Those things are not known nor understood by the intellect.
    Because God is Spirit.
    Truth belongs to God … therefore it is Spirit.
    And The Spirit is Truth and …

    For the natural mind does not understand.
    No insult to you Ian but this is so with ALL the minds of the natural Man.
    The Holy Things of God is known by revelation.
    These things belongs to God and He gives them to whom
    He chooses.
    Same with The Holy Spirit of God.
    Jesus was given without measure.

    Again as I have said at the beginning there are vessels whom God
    chooses for different purposes …
    but always to His Glory.

  23. OK, but we are not writing about “natural man”, we are writing about truth in scripture, unless you are referring to me as a natural man? The topic we are writing about is the Tribulation. You claim: “I know you were taught by ‘man’ … by what you present.” You make this judgment without knowing me. You never answer a direct question, you write in “mystic” riddles and leave the post without properly addressing the context.
    1 Corinthians 2:14 Is referring to the Gospel as being Heavenly Wisdom, which is foolishness to the natural man. The cross of Christ is a message that is designed to transform the lives of believers and make them different as people and as a corporate body from the surrounding world. Paul wrote this letter as his corrective response to the Corinthians(and to us!) who were destroying their Christian testimony because of immorality and disunity.

    • I wouldn’t call it a judgement but rather an assessment.
      I don’t need to know you personally to assess the content of your writings.

      I know the topic of this post is ‘Tribulation’.
      But if you recall you’ve posed a challenge at the start …
      Wanting to know which church …’ The tribulation will take place AFTER the rapture of the true church. So, the question is, which of these four remaining churches will continue into the tribulation? I am interested in feedback from all readers…’

      And I think you are assuming a lot in that particular statement.
      And so I probe to find your mind …
      And yes you do have a natural mind of a natural man.
      This is probably why you can’t understand that I do answer you.
      These are not ‘riddles’… we were discussing ‘the church’, the servants, and the saints.
      You assume that there are 4 churches in our times and one of those will go through ‘Tribulation’.
      What are your premises for such thought ???
      Is it not that you heard from ‘some’ man this theory?

  24. The letters to the seven churches is an amazing study in itself.
    There is information here regarding the the past, present and future of the churches. This is not ‘theory’ it is called scripture.
    I encourage you to read it and study it for yourself. The Bible is the source of all truth. Truth comes from ‘hearing’ and hearing from the word of God. Rom. 10:17 (It does not come from voices in our heads.)

  25. If you are speaking to me Ian … this is called history and history projected into the now!
    This is the type of so called church you are attached to.
    Laodicea was an arrogant and self-sufficient church. It was the most affluent city of the seven in Asia. It was known for its industrial banking, its production of beautiful wool garments, and for the medical school that produced medication for the eyes (eye salve). Some believers mistakenly supposed that the abundance of material goods was an indication of God’s spiritual blessing (a doctrine of prosperity). Laodicea was a rich city and so was its church. What the church could see and buy became more valuable to them than the unseen and eternal; that which is truly important for God.
    The Counsel of Laodicea in 364 A.D. makes for an interesting read.

    http://reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm

    Thus started what we now call Christianity. A drug addicted society dependent upon the pharmaceutical system. No wonder The Lord says that they are all sleeping …
    A church who disregards The Sabbath or any other of Gods’ Commandments.
    A church who abides and observes the doctrines of demons.
    Hardly, must we call it a church … their doctors seems to answer all their ailments and everyone ingests or injects some type of drug.
    And this is the type vomited out of the mouth of God.
    A people who loves to be entertained rather than serving The Eternal.

  26. Abigail,
    Again I have to call you on your ability to blur the subject and insert mixed information that is controversial, incorrect and equally confusing. I am writing here about Jesus Christ, telling the Apostle John to write messages to the “SEVEN CHURCHES” Only four of these types of churches are in existence today. And yes, Laodicea, is ONE of them. It is described as the “lukewarm” church. It is considered today as being an apostate because of it’s inability to have a “salt and light” effect on the world around.
    You, then present a website that is based on Armstrongism, which is a very mis-leading movement, not recognized by most evangelicals.

  27. Isn’t it nice … the military preparing to ‘execute’ the proposed plan?

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/US/07/28/military.swine.flu/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

  28. This is not scriptural but it makes sense to me.
    This will be a time of GREAT famine. At leaast a billion people will probably die of starvation. The governemnts will be holding 100’s of millions of believers, as enemies of the state, as we will refuse the mark. In America they will put us in some of the 600 holding {concentration} camps. They will soon realize we aren’t worth keeping alive, “useless eaters” as Hitler said. So I think they will starve us and keep us from water. Even if one was to drink their own urine, after 7 days you’d most likely be dead. 10 days tops. Noone could survive after ten days without water.
    Just a thought.
    Mary Kay

  29. Mary:
    Just what is this you are saying? If you are referring to the CNN report posted above, how did you come up with this theory? First of all, you are creating a lot of fear for believer’s that may not understand anything about what the future holds. How dare you! Do you include yourself in the above? Will you be in the billion that will die from starvation, or will you survive to be contained in a concentration camp to die there?
    What you are propagating IS NOT SCRIPTURAL! True believer’s are not appointed to wrath. The Blessed Hope: 1Thess.4:17-18, 5:9
    To teach that God has appointed any of His Bride to wrath is utter heresy. To believe that God will put his children through this horrible time (The Great Tribulation) shows that one’s theology is all wrong. When you “know” God you will understand something of his amazing love. When you experience true salvation through His son, you will so gratefully appreciate the incredible sacrifice He made for us, that we too could become “His Sons”.
    When you put all of this together and you understand the “value” that God places on us, you will understand also God’s Prophetic Plan for our “age” and the “ages to come”.

  30. To all,

    The question here is what is meant by “the tribulation?”

    What events occur, and which ones do not occur?

    I can see a “time of trouble” in which one can “endure to the end.”

    I can also see a “time of wrath” in which only the wicked are dealt with, and hardly anyone survives.

  31. Creating a lot of fear? How dare I? LOL! Surely you jest. JESUS was the one who wrote the book of terror, the Book of Revelation, complain to Him! Matthew 24 is chocked full of terrors! Blame Jesus. I didn’t write it, He did.

    He was the one who wrote in Revelations that billions would die and that there would be two waves of martrydom. You need to study the word brother.

    I never once said GOD’s wrath would touch me so why do you accuse me of this? The anti-christ will persecute the church and murder whosoever refuses the mark.

    The rapture comes moments before God’s wrath is poured out on the unbelievers. Check out Revelations.

    You accuse me of not being scriptural on the ten day issue. I’m not scriptural, please read the very first sentence I wrote. I say “This is not scriptural” Please read carefully.

    I was speaking only of my understanding of famine as I have just written a book, “Prepare Before All Hell Breaks Loose!” I cover the coming famine, GMO terminator seeds, colony collapse disorder in bees, Ug 99 wheat rot, corn for gasoline, etc..
    I’m also a nurse and very aware of how the human body functions.

    I feel compelled to say, your attitude is unbecoming a believer. I sense hostility and an argumentive spirit and not an attitude of seeking understanding in love.

    Accusing me of being an unbeliever is a dangerous thing to do, as Yeshua loves me dearly. I have served as a muissionary most of my 33 years being a believer.

    You say, my theology is all wrong, but you back up your statement with zero facts and evidences. I wrote 5 proofs of a pre-wrath rapture and you haven’t responded to even one.

    I no longer choose to spend my precious time responding to you as I sense a spirit of division that Jesus warned us about and told us to shun.
    May God bring you His truth.

    • Hi Mary Kay,

      Ian is not a man who understands the meaning of the portion of Scripture where Yeshua says :
      Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.
      And because he has no understanding of many Spiritual precepts he does not know a reasonable response to a propose concept.

  32. hi Ladies

    I think Ian understands many things, and has concepts to contribute. You just have to listen and understand.

  33. I beg to differ.I have examined scripture and for over 30 years have done intensive study on all of these topics being discussed here. The book is Revelation, it is not plural.
    The “Tribulation” I have been referring to all along is that of the seven year span of time known as the Tribulation Age. In Matthew 24:33-34, two sets of “these things” that need to be distinguished. The first “these things” in verse 33 refers to the tumultuous events begun by verses 7 and 8. The second “these things” refers to the prophetic future, including the Tribulation and the glorious appearing of Christ. I believe that this is the generation that will witness these long awaited events to unfold. I believe that the scriptures tell us that the Rapture will take place before the Tribulation begins and the man of lawlessness (Antichrist) is revealed. The “Church” will not be here on earth. So all of this conjecture of preparing for famine and war is vanity. That is, unless you are writing for those who will be left behind to suffer through the Tribulation, then your book can be useful to them!
    Abagail: I don’t think your comment is just, nor is it kind.
    You folk like to translate the name Jesus to Yeshua. I am not certain why…because all of the English bibles record His name as Jesus Christ, I like to use this correct term when referring to our Lord.
    Mary Kay, I was not accusing you of being an unbeliever, I was trying to point out that we all, including me, need to handle the Word of God with great care. We need to look out for new or baby Christians, so as to not confuse them.

    • What will you do Ian if the rapture occurs in mid tribulation?
      What will you do if The Lord requires that your flesh be burned or worst?
      The Lord is capable to lift your spirit at any time of His choosing.

      My comment to Mary Kay is my perception of some of your ideas.
      I sense that you are a fixed individual in your understanding and so
      are not opened to others’ views.
      What will you do Ian if you are required to overcome?

      I also sense that you would be very angry at God because He did not fulfill
      ‘your expectations’.
      The Lord is Lord of an open ended Universe.
      He does say that His thoughts are above the thoughts of man.
      Maybe your concepts are so fixed like a stick in the mud that any miracles
      coming from God would not be received by you.
      I say this because you have a PRE conceived idea ‘due to your personal interpretation or understanding’ of how things will occur and you might be wrong
      in timing or in other concepts.
      There is only ONE who is ABSOLUTE.
      As for the name of The Lord … His name is YESHUA The MESSiah.
      He is Jewish and never a greek.
      Even the name Jesus is at times understood as Zeus …
      This is sad and perverse but a fact.
      The Christ is a glorious name meaning ‘the Savior’.
      When someone calls The Lord Yeshua they are acknowledging
      His Jewishness.
      Open up Ian and you will the same gift given to Paul.
      Because Saul too thought in his zeal that he was doing God a favor
      by persecuting the church.

    • And as for your or anyone’s 30, 40, 60, 70, years of studying the Holy Scriptures,
      it does not add any more knowledge to what can only be known by revelation.
      Man has bee studying for well over 5,000 years now and still have not yet
      come to a complete knowing or understanding of The Mystery of God … and will not achieve this until it is given by God Himself … when He says ‘It is Finished’.
      But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
      And not a moment before .
      So it is wise to keep your mind open.
      Otherwise one may get puffed up and deceived in their own
      vain intellect.

  34. Dear Abigail,

    Wisely spoken. I believe your words were led by the heart of the Holy Spirit to speak truth in boldness but also delivered in thoughtful tender love.

    This gift of wisdom will be of great value during the times of darkness and suffering.

    It would be a honor to share a prison cell with you someday. ya never know.

    Abigail please visit my tribulation site sometime. : )
    http://www.spiritwars.net

    Mary Kay

    • I have visited your legitimate website.
      And will continue to do so.
      As for sharing … we do all share in The Lord Himself and it would be an honor to also share in HIS sufferings.
      May The Lord strengthened you in all you do in His Name.

  35. Hi again,
    Abigail, I have suffered tribulations throughout this life and will continue to do so, until the Lord removes me from this fallen world either through death or by rapture. I am prepared either way! If I am wrong about when the rapture takes place, so be it. God will indeed do His will and His will is perfect. So I can rest in that assurance alone. God has commanded us to handle His word with extreme care. We are to be diligent in”handling accurately the word of truth” II Timothy 2:15
    I try to be”open” to other views, but those views must pass the test of truth!
    Your comment on Saul “persecuting the Church” was before his conversion. He also was a Jew, but became a missionary, sent by Jesus to the Gentiles.
    Also,you wrote above: “But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
    Can you please offer the bible reference for this. I can only find Revelation 16:17 – “And the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air; and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, “it is done” (it was not the voice of the angel, but that of the Lord.)
    And not a moment before .

    • Hi Ian

      I think everyone here wants the truth. Some things in the bible are cryptic, and it takes a while to properly interpret them.

    • Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. (king james – blue letter bible)
      This verse is speaking of the seventh angel sounding the seventh trumpet.

      Ian, no one likes to think in their thoughts of having to suffer or be tortured.
      I don’t think that any one in their right mind could stand seeing another be a victim of such … yet history is full of accounts of people being tortured to the point of death.

      Here let me explain a dream I’ve had for instance.
      Actually I’ve had three of these.
      In the one … I saw a child, a female child of about seven years old …
      She was thrown into this tank full of piranhas …
      but before she was eaten I saw her spirit leave the body.
      Another instance I saw in a dream a man who was being escorted to
      an area in the bush to be killed by torturous measures which I saw but don’t know.
      In this dream I was praying the Lords’ prayer but had covered my mouth so not to be heard.
      Anyways this mans’ spirit was taken out just before the terrible means of death
      were applied… but his executioners did not know that.
      So the body still underwent these means.
      The other dream is too graphic and I will leave it out of this discussion.

      What is my point??
      Even if we face some cruel death the Lord is and will remain with us.
      And prior to immense persecution The Lord will take us away …
      This is the grace of Our Lord… should one have to go through … torture.

      Ian I hope with all of my heart that The Lord removes us prior to all tribulations.
      And Ian He Does!
      We have never suffered ‘tribulation’ throughout our whole lives.
      Yes we have all suffered … but never agony.
      Trust in Him because He trusts in you.
      He will see us through …
      Oh ! I hope you read this with faith Ian
      May The Lord God bless you and me and us
      with His understanding and His Love.

  36. Thank you Abigail, a very interesting website!
    Perhaps some of our differences have to do with our gender. Like many men, God has wired me to “seek” and figure things out. I am fascinated by learning how something works. So fittingly, most of my secular work has involved both mechanical and structural engineering. I study God’s word in a similar fashion, so I tend not to “Spiritualize” most passages.

  37. Hi Marianne,

    I had this idea of how 10 days of tribulation could refer to 10 years, reconciling it with years for revelation of Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David, revelation of ben Yosef took of presumably from Pesach 5766 and last 7 years – Pesach because this is yet personal revelation of Yosef felt by saints and not recognized by the world just as Yosef was not recognized by brothers, unlike revelation of Mashiach ben David which takes of presumably in Tishrei 5773 and last until uncertain time to the point when our LORD descends on Mount of Olives. Add 7 years of revelation of Mashiach ben Yosef (5766 – 5773) to midpoint of tribulation (abomination of desolation) which if begins in 5773 occurs in 5776 or 5777. I also learned that each year of tribulation is attributed to one of seven shepherds of Israel, also known as seven guests of Feast of Tabernacles, who serve as guiding spirits in that year:
    1st year – Avraham;
    2nd year – Yitzkhak;
    3rd year – Ya’acov;
    4th year – Moshe;
    5th year – Aharon;
    6th year – Yosef;
    7th year – David;

  38. 10 days represent 10 years-as the 70 weeks represents weeks of years in Daniel.
    There are 10 “days” between Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur.
    Rosh Hashannah-Feast of Trupmets represents Christ coming for the church at the last trupm (which is a trump blown during Rish Hashannah. The follow the ten days of repentance for the nation of Israel in which 144,000 are sealed. The day of Yom Kippur is Judgement Day. Which is followed shortly after by Feast of Tabernacles which is God dwelling with men as King.
    Then why 7 and not 10? Daniel still has one week of years to be fulfilled= 7 years. Jesus said that unless the days were shortened no flesh would survive. So it is shortened from 10 years to 7.

  39. Her’s and idea.
    I believe in a late rapture – when Christ returns at the last trump. This will happen on the Feast of Trumpets now know as Rosh Hashanah. We and the dead will be raptured and will meet him in the clouds. He and his angels will continue down to fight the battle of Armageddon. This will take several days and on the tenth day he will take his earthly throne on Yom Kippur, thus fulfilling both festivals. The last festival (Feast of Tabernacles) will be celebrated for the rest of the millennium.
    The church will be taken away from this final tribulation and return for the grand coronation. There’s your ten day tribulation.

    • hi James

      I tend to agree with you. I avoid putting the terms “tribulation” and “7 years” together.

      I think there is a time of trouble of 3 1/2 years, the end of which Jesus returns, as he said in Matthew 24. He was speaking to believers, not unbelievers.

      This will be followed by a time of wrath against the unrepentant and ungodly.

      There is a last week, so I am not sure how the other 3 1/2 years would fit in for sure.

      Maybe the “last week” means the last 7 years of the 70 since 1948. This would make the last week start in 2011,and end in 2018.

      Somewhere in that week, Jacob’s trouble lasts 3 1/2 years, and the true church’s tribulation lasts “10 days.”

  40. Peace to everyone,

    Let me begin by saying that I do not believe that the Bride of Christ will go through the Tribulation. It just doesn’t make any sense to me from the standpoint of weddings, I have never witnessed a wedding where the Bride was turned over to her husbands enemies beforehand, ever.

    I was watching this video today, not that they have the answer, but I think it is worth watching;

    http://www.waytozion.org/video/parsha/Torah%20Portion%206.asf

    The video examines The Bride of Christ by using the life of Issac and Rebbecca. It is worth noticing that it mentions that the Head Servant of Abraham’s house (not Issac, who is analogous to Christ) is sent to go get and bring back a wife for Issac (Rebbecca) from his fathers people. So the servant heads out with 10 camels…etc, etc, you should watch it if you are curious…the parallels are amazing.

    Please keep in mind that I have no personal revelation from God when I mention this…I am just reading and learning the teaching of Tanakh and the Word of God. I do think that the Church (who does not follow the covenant of God) will endure the tribulation, but I also believe that if they trust in God, remain faithful to Christ and do not receive the mark of the beast they will be resurrected to their everlasting reward.

    As far as the 10 days goes, Rebbecca had to journey with her maids to reach the place where Issac was waiting to meet her on the 10 camels (which could also be analogous to the 10 commandments and the covenant). I haven’t got this figured out yet because I must have missed Christ’s mention of ten days while I was reading (or it is not in my translation; I am using the Living Bible and occasionally Biblos because I like the Greek and Hebrew).

    Perhaps, if there is some confusion, it is because the Word must serve every possible situation Christians find themselves in during the last days…I believe the New Testament was never meant to be examined on a stand-alone basis, but since it is Living, it can’t be held to one frozen position either, but has to be allowed to become the Word not just to one, but to all.

    When you think about it, that would be pretty miraculous in itself (that would mean that the Word speaks to every possible permutation or situation that ever could exist for all Christians throughout time). John 1:1 mentions that Christ is ‘literally the Word’…and he existed with God before anything else.

    Either way, the coming issues should never be a source of fear for people…fear is in opposition to faith. Trust God, he knows every hair of your head and he loves you so much. If the worst things on the planet were to happen to you, you can ALWAYS find refuge in God, ALWAYS!

    May your hearts and minds be filled with the Word of God!

    Christian (Kiki)

  41. WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?

  42. Just some thoughts. Maybe a little off subject, but important nonetheless. (1) If the days during the springs feasts were literal days, would not the days during the fall feast represent literal days? Jesus/Yeshuah died, was buried, and rose on Nissan 14-17 of the same year. Would, then, He return, judge the world and His people and set up His kingdom between Tishri 1-21 of the same year? Maybe? (2) Also, the 70 sevens were decreed for Israel and Jerusalem, NOT the Church. The last seven year period has to do with Israel. It is not a time of “purifying” or “perfecting” the Bride. The Bride is perfected when we look on His face and our faith becomes sight. “…we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.” (IJohn 3:2 I think.) And the ones who have the hope of His coming “purify themselves, just as He is pure. (3) There are millions of Christians throughout history that have not gone through any tribulation. Why would the last days Church be required to? (4) Jesus said himself that He came “only for the lost sheep of Israel. The ministry of Jesus wasn’t actually to the Church, but to Israel. It was the gospel of the Kingdom. His ministry actually lasted 70 weeks and was one of the layers of fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy (http://www.torahteachers.com/the-jonah-code-full-version-michael-rood/). And so Jesus didn’t make a covenant with the Church. Jeremiah 31 tells that the New Covenant is with the House of Israel and Judah. This means that in Matthew 24 and the others prophecy passages, He is not talking to the Church, but the Israel. Those passages can’t be used to proved the Church will or won’t go through the tribulation (first half, last half, or otherwise). The Church was a MYSTERY and wasn’t revealed until after Pentecost mainly by the Apostle Paul. Even Peter was confused about God telling Him to go, kill, and eat. It wasn’t until this time that Gentiles were added and ONE NEW MAN was made out of Jew and Gentile. (5) People are saying that we will be persecuted by the Antichrist, but we won’t suffer God’s wrath. It seems to me that both happen the last half of the seven years. How can one go through one and not the other? The first half of the 7 years, seems to be a lot of natural disasters, famine, earthquakes, pestilence, etc. The Antichrist doesn’t begin his persecution until the time of the abomination of desolation. (6) I have leaned toward pretrib for 40 years of my life (even though I’m not sure), but I have studied all the views. The way that I see it is there is no PROOF anywhere in scripture that DEFINATELY supports any one view. A person’s interpretation is based not on scripture, but on their opinion of how God deals with Israel. If a person believes the Church has replaced Israel as God’s people (Replacement Theology), then those people TEND to be mid or post trib. Everything to them is about the Church. If a person believes God deals with the Church and Israel separately, they tend to be pre trib. To them, some things in scripture refer to Israel and others to the Church. Is replacement theology correct, or not? THAT is the root of all our disagreements. The only way a person can believe in replacement theology is if they “spiritualize” the scriptures. That is the reason most pretribbers follow the PLAIN interpretation – whatever can be taken literally should be take literally. The problem with spiritualizing the scriptures is that you have to spiritualize ALL of them. You can’t pick and choose which ones to spiritualize, because there’s no way to know which ones should or shouldn’t be. Replacement Theology can also lead to arrogance. If God rejected Israel for their sin, are we so much better than Israel that He won’t reject us? Paul says that believing Israel is the root of a Jewish tree. We gentiles are grafted in to this Jewish tree. At Jesus second coming many unbelieving Jews will accept Jesus as Messiah and be grafted back into their own tree. (Which brings up an interesting thought. (7) Do gentiles have to obey the Torah? When a branch from an orange tree is grafted into a lemon tree, the branch still produces oranges. The branch keeps its own characteristic. This tends to imply that the Gentiles are not required to take on Jewish characteristics like obeying Torah.

    • when a child is adopted into another family…the child takes on the traditions, belief etc of that family….so it would stand to reason that since we are “adopted sons and daughters” then we would take on the same traditions, beliefs etc as our Jewish Family/G-D.

    • so….yes, gentiles who are adopted should obey the torah!

  43. hi Todd,

    I think a lot of interpretation has to do with basic definitions.

    Some say the entire book of revelation is the tribulation. I say it is the first 6 seals. after that, the wrath.

    so , to me, the rapture comes after the tribulation, but before the wrath. Some would call this post trib, some mid trib, and none pre trib.

    maybe pretrib if people think the trib begins when the 7 trumpets start.

    I sue Matt 24, where jesus said we would go through tribulation, and describes it as ending with the sun turning dark, moon red, and the stars falling, etc. (6th seal)

    The spirit of the antichrist has been in the world since before Christ. It has persecuted millions already. The bride is who she is because she has proven herself through testing and trials.

    There could be 2 events…the pretrib rapture for those who have already proven themselves faithful, and the rest of the sinful church gets purified, and has to endure to the end.

    I think there is both a physical and spiritual level of interpretation of Scripture. However, we should not flip flop back and forth and confuse the levels.

  44. Reading thru alot of the posts above….here’s a thought, after all this happens, I wonder if G-D will let you re-post here and let everyone know how it REALLY happened!

    • I am laughing so hard my stomach muscles aches.
      I am sure the G—-d will allow you to re -post if any is around to read it.
      How did it really happen??
      What church made it through …
      Stay tuned for an episode of after the 10 days of tribulation.
      LOL

      • Yes Abigail…it was meant to be funny! Now I am still waiting on your response to my post in “noah and the rapture”. I have been offended by many of your comments in reply to mine. You made no sense whatsoever in your statements regarding “another day in paradise and are you for real” and I would appreciate an apology and explaination as to why you find it necessary to be rude and offensive to me….on more than one post!

        • *****’Are you for real? A day in Paradise?
          In it are lies!’*****
          Now tell me which part of this total comment is rude?
          Tell me which part of this is offensive?

          So I don’t know what I’m supposed to apologize for.
          Do you really believe that there is now on this earth such a thing as ‘paradise.’?
          Is that what offended you?
          There are 365 days in 1 year and in all of my days I must conclude I have never found anything perfect.
          Even Jesus said …
          ‘Enough of this day, sufficient is the evil in it.’
          Some people have illusions of paradise and by nightfall discovers the sunburn they were not aware of during the day.
          You must tell me which part of my statement offended you, otherwise I’ll just move on.
          It was you who said ‘another day in paradise’.
          My total comment is pasted above.

        • I was thinking …
          ‘In it are lies!’
          In the day of paradise are lies.
          In other words …’paradise is a lie. No such thing as a perfect day.
          Or is it …
          ‘Are you for real?’
          which offended you?
          It is simply just an expression.
          I’m sure you must have heard this expression a hundred times before, if not more.

          And what other comment of mine to you did you find offensive.
          Let’s clear this up.
          I’ve always thought well of you.

          • Abigail, when I wrote “another day in paradise” I was being sarcastic and referencing the country song by Phil Vassar, “just another day in paradise”. I posted the video on Noah and the Rapture so that you would know what I was talking about….total chaos, almost everyday, with 2 sons with special needs and a sister on top of it..never a dull moment….it’ll never be perfect but never boring for sure! When you wrote, “are you for real” and “in it are lies” It came across the wrong way…I honestly didn’t know what you were talking about but couldn’t understand why you were “implying” that I was lieing…this is how it came across. I have always thought well of you as well and couldn’t understand what I had done or said to offend you! The other comment I took wrong was “lord of the rings” when I was asking James who he thought the antichrist was. At first I thought you were being humorous and I am sure you were, I am just sensitive in the area of being “afraid of sounding stupid” after the horse accident. I am not as “quick” as I used to be so I am always self conscious as to whether I am understanding a topic, responding intelligently etc…Thank you for clarifying because Its been on my mind for days now.

            • My dear Lindsey,
              I know your life is hard with your 2 children and a sister? and your previous accident. I feel for you. Truly!
              I would never insult you. i respect you.
              ‘The Lord of the Rings’ comment was really a teasing, funny, comment aimed actually at James.
              I was making fun because he was insisting that revelation is already passed.
              You posed the right question to him and I seized the opportunity to make light.
              i didn’t even know that you were hurt by any of my comments, until this morning.
              I was shocked to read that I had offended you.

              I am playful a lot of times when I respond.
              Sometimes i am serious but often I do play.
              I like to laugh. It does us all good medicine to laugh.
              I even laugh at myself and it is good.

              Speak with you later. :) :) :) ;) and lots of hugs.

              • Thank you Abigail! I am sorry for misunderstanding…it can be hard to determine someone’s message if not reading facial expressions or body language. Thank G-D for emoticons! :)

                I hope noone thinks that I talk about my kids from the standpoint of “poor me”…I talk about them mostly as a testimony to how awesome G-d truly is! If it weren’t for our Father and his gift of humour I would have been committed along time ago ha! As I tell my family and friends, “no one wants Jesus to come back more than I do”…I need a nap! :) LOL

  45. Ive leaned one thing i must read my bible again until i can under stand it much better because my be leave we will be here the first three and a half years because he said to en-door to the end

    • I know this may never be read because it is an old posting but I put it for any who might read. Tribulation continues as it has since Christ left in the clouds. Some have said the vile dark ages which was the thousand year rule of the Whore Papacy that outlawed the scriptures to all but the ruling elite and that to the point of death if the common people were found with them or the book of Enoch, should speak of the terrible violence, tribulations and darkness without the scriptures of that long age, was the ten days that Christ spoke of (the Catholic Church slaughtered more than WWI and WWII put together), and the 1400 years of violence and slaughter of hundreds of millions of Jews, Christians and non-muslims is a dark age of tribulations that has not ended yet, though few Christians speak or are taught about them by the modern day Christian doctrines of flying off before some imaginary seven year period of ‘the tribulation’ occurs. These same modern day scholars full of the doctrines that excite rather than educate should obviate the term ‘the’ tribulation’ in the original vernacular which should read ‘you shall have tribulation’ when knowing inserting the word ‘the’ is obviously inserting one jot or tittle and has caused so many Christians of this last age to ignore the last 2000 years of last day history of the most violent ages of men and the deaths of Jewish and Christian Cradle of Civilization, the most important part of the earths history yet and these two witnesses in the Holy lands and lands of the Bible, that have lain dead for 1400 years well actually it started with Titus, Hadrian and Muhammed the false prophet of scripture. The Seat of Satan, the first Head of the beast, the Ottomans was struck in 1917 by Lord Allenby who entered Jerusalem without a shot being fired and knowing he was fulfilling scripture he ordered not one shot to be fired. In our day the Beast, Islam, the Islamist movement, the media foolishly call the Arab Spring is in fact warring in all Islamic countries and restoring the Caliphate Head of the Ottoman. This is no accident but is fulfilling prophecy that many but, not all Christians are unaware of and not watching for because they look to the far flung future for this war and ‘the’ tribulation that has ever been happening. Strange too is the fact that the raising up of the dead bodies of the two Witnesses the Jews in 1989, 1917, 1948 and 1967 (Incredible dates to take note of with the Zionist Meetiing with Herzle leading to them all) began the judgement and wrath against the Beast and whore UN/EU and any nations against Israel, or Daniels’ Statue if you read, are struck already and we begin to see their demise so our Lords’ return for both Witnesses, those who keep the Commandments of God, the Jews and the Gentile Saved Messianist – who keep the Testimony of Jesus, is not far off (Rev).who are risen up before a world hating them and in wonder that the Bible lands and Jerusalem are no longer in Islamic hands Somewhere in this terrible war that has already begun we shall all see Yeshua return. In other words all these Prophecies you have all been speaking of have been and are and will continue to occur to His return but much has been happening before our very eyes for those of us who are of the age that saw Israel become a Nation, restored to her rightful homeland, Jerusalem and Nation and much more while those nations that hate her have thought terrible evil thoughts against her to anhialate Jews along with Christians this time, again and have been busy emptying their lands of Jews and Christians so the Lord is emptying Babylon of His children, come out of her my people, so He may spill His wrath upon them for their hatreds of there Brothers and their Hundreds of milllions of wicked slaughters of His people. The sign of the Beast is those who have slain the Saints. and Islam and Catholicism and Hitler and Russia , China, (Europe) etc, have all done this terrible deed. Now these facts and history is exciting as it is sad and frightening. So much more has gone on and is going on.

  46. Ten years of tribulation for the corporations, their stakeholders and shareholders as begun. Of course that will also impact on the rest of the world. Check out the history of the once prosperous afganistan and you will how nations are destroyed. Its all to do with the stakeholders and power mongers.

    I have provided a full commentary on the ten days of tribulation on my blog if you are interested.

  47. Tribulation is a 10 year period, a day for a year.

    The sevens (weeks of years) are referring to a particular event which I believe to be the near earth orbit of Apophis. A quick search and you will find Apophis passes over the earth every 7 years, another interesting point is that it passes over around PASSOVER/EASTER.

    Daniel says that in the middle of a 7 or one week of years the covenant is broken Daniel also says it will be 2300 days around 6.5 years before the sanctuary is made holy again i.e. Jesus return.

    Add the 3.5 to the 6.5 and you end up with 10 years.

    Daniel says that in the middle of the 7 the Antichrist will break the covenant, if you do your maths you will find it is a few months short of 10 years so what’s to say that it is only a rough middle.

    Hosea 6:2
    In two days he will put new life in us; on the third day he will raise us up so that we may live in his presence

    This new life is 2000 years of the Holy Spirit, the one day is the thousand years in Revelation where Christ will rule.

    Assuming Christ died in 32AD then 2000 years later would bring His return to 2032. Note also Apophis is expect to come very close to the earth in 2029AD( I think it will hit) add the 2030 days(6.5 years) to when the daily sacrifice is stopped(3.5 years) then it will bring you also to the year 2032.

    Note also that in Daniel and Revelations a big stone/mountain is thrown to the earth, I believe this to be Apophis on it’s last 7 year orbit April13 2022 to April 2029.

    Rapture occur just after Apophis hits and the bible verse indicate that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, the other will probably die but not necessarily damned.

    Sorry for the length tried to be as brief as possible.

    • dear mujer

      that is really interesting I had never thought of adding the 3.5 and the 6.5 together before …..thanks.

    • The daily sacrifices were stopped by Titus in 70 ad. He that came after Rome was removed is Islam. Muhammed took Jerusalem tore down statue of Jupiter which stands now in the Vatican square as statue of Peter (now that is a curious one) and the abomination of desolation the Al Aksa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock stands where it ought not..in the Holy of Holies …you cannot get more abominable than that. There will be no new sacrifices in the Temple to measure time from because it already occurred and G-d has put life into the people of Israel as Ezekiel 37 said He would do. They are alive 1948, Jerusalem was re-united when split by Jordan, and restored in 1967 and now we look to the gathering of Babylon to be destroyed Ezekiel 38 39, and Christ gathering the harves of all the saved on earth with His sickle and the wrath of God in the harvest that the angels are instructed to do and cast the rest into the winepress of the wrath of G-d, Rev 14

      9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

      10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

      11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

      12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

      14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

      15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

      16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

      17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

      18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

      19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

      20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

  48. Many verses show that the Gospel of Christ was preached in the entire world before the apostles died..Col. 1-23..
    The gospel of Matthew 24-14,,is not Christ’s gospel..It is the gospel of the false christs and false prophets of this chapter…It is also identified in Matthew 24-15 as being the abomination that makes men desolate of God’s spirit… This gospel of antichrist causes men to lose the truth (God’s spirit) and to become indwelled by the spirit of antichrist….Hense desolation…

    Israel will be tempted same as Christians…. as to whether they will accept Mohammed’s allah as the God of Abraham or finally to accept Jesus as messiah…

    The entire world will be tried and endure tribulation…It is happening now…

  49. Jesus said in John 17-12…and none of them is lost, but the son of PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    The sons of perdition are identified in 2 Thessalonians 2-3…Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of PERDITION;..

    These are Christians who fall away from Jesus and the Gospel into Chrislam…The next verse 2 Thessalonians 2-4 shows these are sons of perdition because Satan is indwelling their temples (their bodies) and is claiming he is the Allah wanna be god… A son of perdition is Satan’s version of god indwelling his children…

    2 Peter 3-9..But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and PERDITION of ungodly men. WE ARE THERE NOW…

    God is removing the tares from his church via Chrislam and possibly through some Christian cults..This is the perdition of ungodly men….

    Read Matthew 12 -43,44,45..and see how Satan creates his children….Satan and his seven demons enter and dwell therein and the last state of man is worse than the first…This verse is about Christians who are swept clean and garnished and when they fall away and become sons of perdition…Or rather are indwelled by the son of perdition..same difference really.. Any way you say it, it is Satan inn flesh…

    It is not quite over yet…I strongly suspect Obama will force Islam on the people if he is reelected

  50. because Satan is indwelling their temples (their bodies) and is claiming he is the Allah wanna be god >> It is the goal in both testaments to achieve Godliness or perfection like Christ, which means that god doesn’t do everything for us, our hands are power manifested so we can be more than children.

    It is not quite over yet…I strongly suspect Obama will force Islam on the people if he is reelected >> Your an idiot, he has nothing to gain or even the remotest chance of doing it, even if he did do it they would be considered poor Muslim’s by their community standards nowadays.

    Read Matthew 12 -43,44,45..and see how Satan creates his children >> You are catering to your own beliefs, please don’t post religious advice coming from an accuser (like Satan)’s point of view.

  51. in response to the revelations and length of tribulation, there is a 7 year timeline after the breaking of the 7th seal. it is 42 months of the 2 witnesses, then the abomination of desolation, then the 42 months of the blasphemer. i personally have a theory on the rapture, rev 5 v 1 to 5, jesus opens, reads, looses the seals. this is the book of life. but in Thessalonians, we are not intended for gods wrath. thess 1 v 10 and 5 v 9. then in rev 6 after the 5th seal, the sixth seal is mentioned ” for the great day of his wrath has come, and who shall be able to stand”. then in rev 7 after the numbering of the 144,000 all the souls in white robes that came out of the great tribulation, that is a reference to the rapture. so the tribulation starts when the first seal is broken, and i hope the next 4 happen quickly. then the 7 years of hell on earth. i believe revelations to be chronological. as far as the rev 7 mention of all the souls in white robes, this must be the rapture because the mark of the beast isnt till the end of chapter 13, then in rev 14 god says” blessed are the dead that die in the lord from henceforth” so these are more of the martyrs.

    • hi gregg

      how do you think the tribulation of 10 days fits into this? REV 2:10

      • well, could be, many references in old testament for a day being a year, daniel and the 70 week. but i like the one in gen 7, god sealed noah and family in the ark, then in 7 days the flood came, mathew 24 and in luke 17 i believe, they make reference to the days of noah, so i think it is a valid claim for the 7 years of hell on earth after we are raptured, or delivered from the wrath to come. glad i found this and someone to chat with about it, really been on my mind and cant find too many people that like the subject. thanks

  52. sorry, i just read rev 2:10, i dont know, might be a 10 year period from the breaking of the first seal to the end. 3 years of the first 5 seals, then rapture, then the wrath of god, and 7 years, idk, do you think all of what is happening in the middle east is already the white horse going to conquer or do you think the four horsemen happen all at once. ?? dont forget jesus says, he will shorten it or no flesh will be saved. so where does that fit into the time frame. greg

    • gregg

      I think the seals all rapidly open, in order, and then all the horses are riding together.

      My impression is that the most of the church of smyrna is martyred before the seals are opened, and then others are killed quickly once the 5th seal opens.

      There are people being martyred right now, one at a time. But once war and famine and pestilence set in ( seals 2,3 4), it will not take long to kill people with modern weapons.

      they could spray an entire territory with poison, and the next day people would be dead. So, it might be a literal 10 day period.

  53. Zachariah 6 describes these horses and where they went, says they are the 4 spirits of heaven, the black on goes north followed by the white horse. interesting. i do think most of this killing happens over there, it is happening now. always wondered how much i would have to prepare, prayed and dont get alot, i do have food, and gardens and seeds. but havent felt the need to arm myself to the hilt like on the prepper shows. lol

    • greg

      these are my definitions….right or wrong…. :)

      seals 1-6 are the “tribulation”

      seal 7 is a break…rapture at this time?

      the wrath is announced at the end of Rev 6 when the kings of the earth cry out as they go hide in their caves.

      144 k is sealed, for some special purpose….the saints are taken to heaven in the rest the chapter 7

      trumpets and vials are the wrath of God


      martyrdom happens before (pretrib, which is last 2000 years up to the 1st seal) and during the 5th seal.


      it does seem like the horses focus mostly over there, but we are all connected with those countries….notice zechariah does not say where the red horse went.

  54. i like your definitions :) they are like mine. i just think the rapture is one seal before, because the 6th seems to be the wrath of god. but we are so close, thanks for the chat, off to church, see what you have posted later. greg

  55. greg,
    Very good analysis, I too believe the first five seals are “Pre-trib” events. I also believe, that Chrisians will face the first six trumpets as well, Leaving the 7th seal, Seventh trumpet, and all seven plagues as part of the “Day of the Lord” (wrath phase) Matthew 24, is primarily discussing the “end of the age”, while “as in the days of Noah” refers to The “day of the Lord”. The seventh seal, trumpet and plague are all describing the same event.

    Here is what I see timeline wise. 7 years, end of the age, 1260 days =two witnesses, 7 years, day of the Lord. With the rapture occurring after the first 7 Years, with the excepion of the church of Smyna, which will be integral in the two witnesses ministry and thus will face ten and half day/years of tribulation.

    I know this is not conventional (traditional) interpretation of the events, but If you use this famework, it all starts to make sense.
    God bless
    Dave

  56. but opening the 7th seal releases the trumpet judgments ?? so i guess we disagree on that, if we are caught up after the 5th seal, then the 6th begins gods wrath, then the numbering of the 144,000. then we are mentioned. then the 7th seal and release of the 7 trumpet judgments. i think we get lost when we jump around. i try and stick to it completely chronological. i think this is why people get confused because of all of the different opinions because people try and move things around to fit there beliefs. so i am not counting on the trumpet judgments. but i just love the topic and all ideas, makes me get back into the reading. if all people would just read it themselves instead of just taking others word for the truth, they would actually be able to see the truth, god wrote the bible to be understood by all, so its not that complicated. :)

    • Greg,
      Good, valid counterpoint!

      My response:
      What we do not know is the duration of the seals. Obviously things like famine, wars, and illnesses take time, as does the persecution of the saints. Revelation 8:1-5 has seal opening, followed by silence, the seven angels, and then “Thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake”.

      Neither do we know if they overlap. Does seal one end before seal two begins, Or is the rider on the white horse still conquering, while the red horse begins its ride?

      The timing that I have come to understand is the culmination of the seals. For example, when does the persecution of the saints end? with the rapture? or the death of the two witnesses? Or is it near the end, when the Israelites are rescued?

      These are questions that are not asked by many theologians, or pastors. I ask them, not to cause confusion, but to come to a better understanding.

      I have to agree, that the message of the bible is not so complicated, and can be understood by all. But human understanding is limited, fractured, and incomplete at best. No one person holds ALL the Truth. If we could prove the Truth, then there would be no need for faith! Example of this: Our “blessed Hope” is the rapture (Titus 2:13-14); Many, however, deny this hope. Why? Because they are looking for signs and wonders instead of “believing without seeing”. Those who believe without seeing, are those who will witness him coming in the clouds. To the rest, It will come as a thief in the night.

      The Gospel is a simple as faith. “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Heb. 11:1) Proverbs also tells us to “Trust in the Lord with all our heart…” as opposed to “…Leaning on our own understanding” (3:5) If a believer is looking for “signs and wonders” they will be led astray, By the false signs and wonders of the False prophet. But if they are “trusting in the Lord”, and his promises yet unseen, they will be ready for his coming. Assurance comes not from our understanding but from the faith, and knowing that God is in control.

      I pray that the Holy Spirit will speak to you through these words.

      • yes he speaks to me more and more every day and im really reading the scripture. seems like when i bring up this topic with others, they usually say no one knows the hour or the day. and that gets me a little irked, because it seems like they are saying that to shut me up and get out of the conversation because they arent interested or just dont understand. you havent done that, im glad i found this format. and as far as signs, i think what we are seeing in the middle east is our sign, and most dont pay attention to it. in the end there will be mockers, and i know alot of them. i post news stories on my facebook all the time for people who dont watch or keep up on the news, i dont post too much about jesus because it seems to scare people away, so i try to show how bad things are and maybe scare them into opening the bible. as far as how long the seals last, im thinking quickly, luke 21:34 to 36. it will come as a snare on all mankind, and to escape all these things that shall come to pass. that gives me hope my friend. ive got young kids, and this whole thing we are talking about makes me want to protect them, i just pray constantly. and im at peace with it. but quick is good :)

  57. First nowhere in the Bible does it say 7 years of tribulation, this is a play of Daniel 9:27 and the last week of the 70 weeks. This is talking about the covenant Jesus made not the antichrist, only Jesus can fulfill 9:24, He was cut off in midweek, ( 3&1/2 year ministry) also was crucified midweek (Wednesday) the following days were high holy days and at the end of the Sabbath ,(Saturday and sunset) she went to the grave but He was gone.
    The great tribulation (3 & 1/2 years) starts at revelation 11 and 11:7 begins the 10 days of awe, and the rapture at the end of chapter 11. Then the last trumpet is blown (1 cor. 15:52). 2 thes. tells us Christ cannot be revealed until the great falling away and the antichrist is revealed( in power). joel 2:23 tells the beginning of the tribulation, Passover and 3 & 1/2 years later (2nd half of the 70th week) will fulfill tabernacles. A word to the wise, if most people are following something, then odd are it is wrong, God only has a remnant (zech 13:7-9) Most the end time books are written by people who are using their own understanding, not by the Holy Spirit.. Amos 3:7 May God give you all eph. 3: 16-19

  58. Michael,

    You are correct about the book writers (profit seekers).

    They were like the religious leaders in Jerusalem who did not see the sign in the heavens at His conception and at His birth. The religious leaders today did not see the sign in the heavens if His return (Rev. 12:1-5), which occurred on Feasts of Trumpets, 2011 (September, 29, 2011).

    Very soon the 12 year old girl who is not dead but asleep – will awaken like the virgins (Matthew 25).

    Then the work of Joel 2:2-11 begins.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  59. Seven years confirmed in revelations ch 11 to 13, 42 months twice ;-)

    • I use old testament also in the rapture, seven year trib etc. Example of rapture is enoch, never saw death, but was translated or raptured. And in genesis 7, God shut the door to the ark, and in seven days the rains came !! A day equals a year !! After that a new beginning !! Just my two cents. ;-) I also think their is a pretrib harpadso, a mid trib event according to daniel, after the abomination, daniel 12. And at the end of the great trib, zechariah 14, when he stands on the earth. ;-)

  60. Rev. 11:5 is the 7th and last trump 1 cor 15:52 then the catching away. rev 12 and 13 are before the 7 trump. 2 thes. tell us Christ cannot come until the great falling away and the antichrist is in power and overcome the saints, then the Lord comes and deals with them. The Lord said he will send them strong delusion to them who believed not the truth . Rev. is not in chronological order , John saw this and over here he saw this, and so on. There is only one catching away, the last trump.
    God kept them from the flood as he will many (rev 12 15-17), as far as Enoch ,his story has nothing to do with the rapture, this is what men have read into it. His story has a different meaning and story altogether.
    Dan. 9 has to be understood, as well as the Feast of the Lord. May the Lord Bless you with His wisdom and understanding.

  61. Ok ;-) you must be a mid tribber ?

    • I believe in a pre trib event, the harpadso, and a mid trib event, and the zechariah 14 event, so I’m not disagreeing with you ;-)

      • So you don’t believe the 42 months in rev 11 and the 42 months in rev 13 are proof for a seven year trib ? And only one person in the bible was translated without seeing death, Jesus died !! Enoch was harpdsoed !!, their is nothing more important, except Jesus being raised, than the story of Enoch. Nothing in the bible is insignificant !! Knowing the old is key to understanding the new !! Did you know that Enoch was raptured on his birthday !! Could this be a reference to the church being taken on its birthday ?? This is a jewish celebration too ;-) don’t get too tied into what the preachers and religion say !! Always keep an open mind, pray, trie to prove with scripture their views, without discounting what the bible says !!

        • Michael, why do you say rev 11 v 5 is the last trump ?? This is referring to moses and elija (spellcheck), would like to listen to ? Whats his name ? I’m always looking for more info ;-) and the corinthians reference I believe is the mid trib event, remember, I believe in three seperate events !!

  62. He is Jesus ;-) the man of sin we don’t know because the man of sin won’t be revealed till after the church has been removed ;-)

    • The church being the body of christ jesus or “he”

      • It is very important to identify the group of people being referred to in scripture. Is it a reference to the body of christ, his bride or church. A reference to the jews that, like noah, will be protected through the trib (only a remnant according to scripture), or the gentiles ?

    • read again…as he is being revealed the church will leave.

  63. So you are saying he is the antichrist or man of sin ?

    • 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 thess 2

  64. I know the verse, who are you saying “he” is. Because he is doing the restraining now ?? Just a name, not a verse please

    • And satan has been working since he was ejected from heaven in genesis. Jesus is “he”, and the man of sin cannot be revealed till”he” be taken out of the way. This is a reference to the holy spirit, the one who restrains. Satan is the one being restrained now, but will be let loose when “he” the bride of christ is removed

    • the verse is self explanatory… you are referring to a different verse now.

  65. Michael and his army are restraining the powers of darkness, principalities. He is not the Holy Spirit.

    Are you grafted into the tree? Or is “Christianity” another tree?
    Is the 144,000 just Hebrews “left behind”?
    Who overcomes/endures and receives the rewards – the Church?
    Did you see the sign in the heavens on Feasts of Trumpets, 2011?
    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  66. According to scripture, the 144, 000 are 12, 000 from the twelve tribes of israel, virgins, with no guile, don’t forget to focus on the group of people being referred to. Either those who are saved (bride or church) , gentiles or jews. Jews are not the bride of christ, they rejected and most still reject Jesus as the messiah (God in the flesh)

    • The rest of your comments are directed at the jews, they will endure the persecution until they acknowlege Jesus as the messiah, we must discern once again what group is being referred to !!

      • Who overcomes and endures, a remnant of the jews, just like noah and his family, saved through the storm. These will be the ones to repopulate the earth after Christs final return to set up his ” Jesus” kingdom. The millenial reign !! Battle of armageddon at end of thousand years, then final judgement

        • Thess verses re “he”. Verse 7 “he” restrains until “he” be taken out of the way. Verse 8, then shall that wicked one be revealed. Verse 9, even “him”, the wicked one, who’s coming is after the working of satan. Obviously “he” is a different entity than “him” . Love you all, read it again ;-)

  67. Yes, it is self explanatory, read it again please ;-) we must all forget what we have been told, we must keep an open mind, and remember it tells us in jude, men of old have crept into the church and changed things, yep, re read it yourselves !! Satan is in our churches !! Jude warns us of this !!

  68. Greg,

    No need to debate. It’s all going to be revealed on the next few years.

    You see, the sign in the heavens (Rev. 12:1-5) was above us on Feasts of Trumpets, 2011. I saw it and I’m not a Jew!

    Since that was a sign given within the book of Revelation -we are within the timeline of events.

    The paradigm of the evangelical church is about to change.

    The virgins are about to be awakened and it will be shocking to millions and millions.

    Remember this verse and apply it – Revelation 12:11.

    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  69. Greg,

    The Hebrews will come to know Him.
    Paul tells us in the letter to the Romans – I think that is chapter 11.

    When the Ark of the Covenant is brought forth (soon) it will a witness (evidence) to them. See 1st John 5 (NKJV).

    Blessing
    Psalm 29

  70. Yes, we all agree its very soon ;-) and I pray we are all the five virgins with the oil, the holy spirit !! God be with you all ;-)

  71. Feast of trumpets in sept ?

    • I disagree with rev 12, this hasn’t happened yet, this star wil come after the rapture, after the 42 months of the two witnesses in ch 11, in the middle of trib according to scripture, this lines up with daniels abomination in the middle of trib, before great trib, last 3.5 years

      • Greg,

        My brother’s name is Greg. Nice name.

        This link will explain Rev. 12:1-5.

        http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/signs-in-the-heavens/

        News flash – we are within “Daniel’s Week”. Very soon the virgins wake up.

        There was a living parable of an asleep virgin recorded in Mark chapter 5:35-43. She was not dead but asleep.

        I’m expecting the Ark of the Covenant to be brought forth soon.

        http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-lost-ark-god-forbid/

        There is no need for the Temple to be rebuilt for any abomination like the pig Antiochus offered in 165BC. What is required? The altar.

        Any similar abomination in the coming months does not require the temple to be built. It requires the Ark of the Covenant be present for a similar kind type of abomination.

        His Blood is upon the altar today, which would make the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet very upset.

        The Pope’s “holy water” is not made to sprinkle upon the altar consecrated by the Blood of the Messiah.

        But is the Pope the Anti-Christ? He is the False Prophet, leading the false church (Universal Church).

        Blessings
        Psalm 27

        • I am not disagreeing with rev 12, but you are setting aside rev 5 to 11, those haven’t happened yet, so you don’t believe rev is in a chronological order, I run into this a lot, I’m sure when the time comes in mid trib, ch 12, that this sign will occur because the scripture says it will, the scripture is infallable, however, mans interpretation of it is less than perfect, I include myself in that group ;-) lol

        • Read mark five, I don’t get the tie in, but ill google it and read the opinions so I know where your coming from. As far as antiochus, not only the pig, but a statue of zues was placed in the temple, a greek god, now that’s a topic for discussion ;-) were the greek gods real ? Yes sir !! Read genesis six, jude six, genesis 3 v 15, satan has a seed ;-) I love it ;-)

  72. My brother again I refer to danial 9:27, this is Jesus confirming the covenant, fulfilling verse 24. His ministry was 3 1/2 years, from around feast of trumpets till Passover. The last half of the 70 weeks (3 1/2 years) starts in rev. 11. The seals, trumpets, and vials are concurrent, not in specific order. when I say the last trump is the catching away, look at each of the number 7 seals, trumps, and vials, they are the perfect judgments of God, we (except those chosen to be martyrs), just as Noah was taken through the judgment of God then, and the same with Israel while the judgments were in egypt . As far as Enoch, Elijah was taken as well.
    The he who holds in 2 thes is the lukewarm, those who give lip service, luke 14 :16-24, they are goats (he) again 2 thes 2:3, that is why God shall give them strong delusion, they believed not the truth. Is. 29:9-21.
    Jesus shall finish through His believers the last 3 7 1/2 year of the 70 weeks, then He returns for us and deals with the world. rev 11, study out the 2 witnesses, (2 houses Judah and Ephraim), we are seeing the beginning of ez 37 and will move quickly into 38 & 39 which is rev.
    Keep digging, there is Gold in that Book.

    • He in daniel 9 v 27 is referring to the antichrist not Jesus !! Why would Jesus stop the sacrifice and spread abominations and make desolate ?? Mathew 24 is referring to end time events, the 70 ad destruction is only part of the discourse !! Verse two, the rest is end times !! Mark 13 and luke 21 ;-)

  73. Ok, so you don’t think the two witnesses are men ? But they lay in the streets dead for three days then are raised up, will this not happen as the bible tells us ?? We are not in the trib yet ;-)

  74. do not be deceived by any mans religious interpretations of the bible, i trust no man when it comes to what is in the book. God gave it to us so we may know the truth. we must take it literally ;)

  75. the most important thing that we must believe in is that Jesus is God in the flesh, God came in human form to walk with us, just like God came in the old testament, and dwelt with the people in the tabernacle !! Jesus is God, and he died for us, that is what we must believe and accept !!!

  76. Il will check ir out when I get into so cal tonight ;-) thx dj

  77. Facebook me dj, easier to have a discussion ;-) I’m going to read your post now !!

  78. Their are two 42 month periods in revelations 11 and 13, that’s seven years, revelations IS chronological ;-) so their is the seven year ! ;-) lol

  79. The letter to the church in ephesus rev 2 v 10, does not apply to current events since the church no longer exists, look it up ;-)

    • Rev 1 v 19, God talking with john. Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things that shall be hereafter. The hereafter starts in rev ch 4, so the letters to the churches are at that present time to seven churches in asia or turkey. They are examples on how churches are doing, a report card, and can be used to grade our churches today. Ephesus lost their first love, the love of christ. Any ten days of tribulation is past, already happened ;-) not in the future !

  80. Dj, You might find this portion of a post interesting it is from fivedoves.com.

    Taylor (25 Feb 2014)
    “2014 to 2017″

    Tribulation: 2014-2021, Rapture This Year (THEORY)

    Honestly, of everything I’ve seen and heard, this is the most persuasive timeline I’ve seen yet. It doesn’t rely on minute details, but big things we’ve been seeing come to pass (THIS IS A THEORY):

    1. This is the big one for me. Rosh Hashanah, September 23rd, 2017 and Revelation 12. I and others have scoured over hundreds of different dates using astronomy software and this is the first and only date for any year that fits ALL FOUR CONDITIONS of the sign in Revelation 12: Woman clothed with the sun. CHECK. Moon at her feet. CHECK. Giving birth to a single male child (the king planet Jupiter) right between the constellation’s legs. CHECK. Crown of 12 stars. CHECK. I have seen several close dates, such as Rosh Hashanah 2011, where 2 or 3 of the four conditions were met, but 2017 is the only date that meets all four conditions. THIS IS HUGE. Revelation 12 is a mid-trib sign, indicating the beginning of the last 3.5 years. Please also note: Jupiter, the king planet, was identified as THE Star of Bethlehem in the now famous Bethlehem Star documentary. It is the only object in the sky that meets ALL NINE of the conditions the Gospels mentioned of the Star of Bethlehem.

  81. Dj, I think you might find this interesting. it is part of a post (I recommend the whole post but this part is very relevant to your recent comments) from fivedoves.com
    Taylor (25 Feb 2014)
    “2014 to 2017″

    Tribulation: 2014-2021, Rapture This Year (THEORY)

    Honestly, of everything I’ve seen and heard, this is the most persuasive timeline I’ve seen yet. It doesn’t rely on minute details, but big things we’ve been seeing come to pass (THIS IS A THEORY):

    1. This is the big one for me. Rosh Hashanah, September 23rd, 2017 and Revelation 12. I and others have scoured over hundreds of different dates using astronomy software and this is the first and only date for any year that fits ALL FOUR CONDITIONS of the sign in Revelation 12: Woman clothed with the sun. CHECK. Moon at her feet. CHECK. Giving birth to a single male child (the king planet Jupiter) right between the constellation’s legs. CHECK. Crown of 12 stars. CHECK. I have seen several close dates, such as Rosh Hashanah 2011, where 2 or 3 of the four conditions were met, but 2017 is the only date that meets all four conditions. THIS IS HUGE. Revelation 12 is a mid-trib sign, indicating the beginning of the last 3.5 years. Please also note: Jupiter, the king planet, was identified as THE Star of Bethlehem in the now famous Bethlehem Star documentary. It is the only object in the sky that meets ALL NINE of the conditions the Gospels mentioned of the Star of Bethlehem.

    see ya soon!
    Malia

    • Has anyone ever bothered to consider that the Star of Bethlehem, wasn’t an actual or literal Star, (or planet reflecting the light of the Sun)?
      Lets break down the text and look at the “white letters”.
      In Matthew Chapter 2 we have some Wise men appearing in Jerusalem.
      (We don’t know how many, though the number 3 has been assumed based upon the number of gifts that are recorded, in Matthew 2:11.)

      Any way’s, These Magos (or Wise men) appear in Jerusalem and start asking the Jews the question, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.”

      So… These Wise men had followed this Star for a considerable length of time and it had led them to Jerusalem.
      When they had started to ask those questions, it was either day time, or extremely cloudy, (to where the Star was no longer visible to the naked eye), or the Star had disappeared altogether.

      So by the above the possibility of it being a natural Star, (or planet) is still valid.

      Eventually Herod heard that these Wise men were in town and were asking questions regarding another King. I suspect that he ordered for them to be located and brought before him so that he could question them, and they were granted an audience with him, (Matthew 2:3.).

      Before the Wise men arrived, Herod gathered the chief priests and scribes together and asked them to tell him where the Messiah would be born.
      They replied “In Bethlehem of Judah!” and quoted Micah 5:2., & Genesis 49:10.

      During the audience with Herod, he had asked the Wise men “when” this Star had appeared? And then informed them that this King and Messiah would be born in the City of Bread, or Bethlehem, (Matthew 2:7,8.).

      Now if this had been an actual Star, one that had fallen into an extraordinarily rare alignment, or was exceedingly bright and therefore stood out from all of the rest, why had it not been noticed by the Sanhedrin or others prior to this point?
      (This is over 2000 years ago where people weren’t distracted like they are today by city lights, T.V., cell phones etc., etc. The skies and what was occurring with the stars was considered of great importance.)
      And apparently the Wise men had followed this Star for at the very least, a couple of months by then.
      How is it possible that no one had noticed this significant Star?

      After the Wise men left Herod and continued on their journey with the new more specific information, “poof” the Star appears again, and it actually moves, (proagō) and leads them to where the Messiah was, Matthew 2:9-11., (though the text doesn’t specifically say that the Star actually led them to Bethlehem, they had more than likely showed up after Joseph, Mary and Yeshua had returned to their home in Nazareth, (Luke 1:26. & 2:4.).)

      Now in Luke there is no mention of a Star whatsoever?
      Instead we have an Angel of the Lord appearing to the shepherds and proclaiming that the Messiah has been born, (Luke 2:8-18.).

      Though I could be wrong, it is my opinion that those that are utilizing computer generated astronomical charts to research alignments of the past, are simply barking up the wrong tree. I don’t think that the Star of Bethlehem was a literal Star at all.

      Praise the King of kings.

  82. sorry for the double post…the first didn’t show up right away and I had to sign in again…

  83. I’ve heard that theory before, overlaying them doesn’t work, then you have the two witnesses fighting for air time with the blasphemer ;-) cnn would screw it all up with bad coverage and terrible commentary ;-) lol. The seven years in revelations lines up with the seventieth week of daniel, why do people fight it and make it difficult ?? Its an issue of pride !! Ill stick to what the scripture says ;-) AMEN !!

  84. Thx for posting that ;-) God Bless !!

  85. Hi,

    Well, Jupiter is the planet representing God. Venus is the planet representing Jesus, Saturn is the planet representing Satan. These along with the moon at her feet (Virgo) and clothed in the sun (daylight occurance) is what makes The sign on Feasts of Trumpets, 2011 fit the sign of Revelation 12:1-5. On that date, Jupitor was above Leviatan and Mars was in Leo (war in Heaven).
    The sign 5 Doves is referring to is another but probably a significant sign, knowing the meaning of the planets.
    Next – and very soon – the US dollar will no longer be the world currency standard. Very soon.
    Also the Ark of the Covenant will come forth soon. This will wake up many Hebrews to the New Covenant.
    Blessings
    Psalm 27

  86. Please read this page and you might see the evidence.

    http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/signs-in-the-heavens/

    Blessings

  87. Malia,

    I think the sign in the heavens that Five Doves is referencing is the beginning of The Jubilee and God’s Rest (2017).

    The sign on Feasts of Trumpets, 2011 is different and unique, matching Rev. 12:1-5, which is Saturn (Satan/Dragon) next to Venus in Virgo with the moon at her feet and clothed in the sun, occurring on September 29, 2011. On that same day, Jupiter (representing God) is on the head of Leviathan (Cetus) and Mars (war) is within Leo (King of Judah), representing war in heaven. Saturn left Virgo on 11/11/11, which is a very interesting date.

    You may find this of interest and it does line up with the sign in the heavens of 2017.

    “Perilous Time and the End of Olam Hazeh”

    by John J. Parsons

    “But you must know this: in the last days perilous times shall come” (2 Tim. 3:1). Notice that this knowledge is not optional, since the Greek verb is imperative (i.e., Τοῦτο δὲ γίνωσκε – “this you must know…”). In order to heed this commandment, then, we need to understand some of the language being used in this verse.

    The Greek phrase “in the last days” (ἐν ἐσχάταις ἡμέραις) refers to the prophesied “End of Days,” sometimes called acharit ha-yamim (אַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים) in Hebrew. Eschatos (ἔσχατος) refers to the end point of a sequence, indicating its outcome or final expression. In the context of Paul’s letter, then, the “last days” ultimately refers to the period of the Great Tribulation (צָרָה גְדוֹלָה) just before Yeshua returns to establish His Kingdom in Zion.

    According to many of the sages, the time immediately preceding the appearance of the Messiah will be a time of testing (nisayon) in which the world will undergo various forms of tribulation, called chevlei Mashiach (חֶבְלֵי הַמָּשִׁיחַ) – the “birth pangs of the Messiah” (Sanhedrin 98a; Ketubot, Bereshit Rabbah 42:4, Matt. 24:8).

    Some say the birth pangs are to last for 70 years, with the last 7 years being the most intense period of tribulation — called the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” / עֵת־צָרָה הִיא לְיַעֲקב (Jer. 30:7).

    [ I think the last 70 years began in 1947, when the proclamation went forth by the UN, establishing Israel as nation: 1947 + 70 = 2017. (See Psalm 90:10 for confirmation.)

    The Jubilee count is evident in 1917 (Balfour Proclamation) and 50 years later is 1967 (Jerusalem under Israel governance). Then, 50 years later is 2017 and "The Jubilee" (Hebrews 4:3-11)].

    The climax of the Great Tribulation is called the great “Day of the LORD” (יוֹם־יהוה הַגָּדוֹל) which represents God’s wrath poured out upon a rebellious world system. On this fateful day, the LORD will terribly shake the entire earth (Isa. 2:19) and worldwide catastrophes will occur. “For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev. 6:17).

    The prophet Malachi likewise says: “‘Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,’ says the LORD Almighty. ‘Not a root or a branch will be left to them'” (Mal. 4:1).

    Only after the nations of the world have been judged will the Messianic kingdom (מַלְכוּת הָאֱלהִים) be established upon the earth. The remnant of Israel will be saved and the 1000 year reign of King Messiah will then commence (Rev. 20:4). For more information about this, see “As the Day Draws Near.”

    Notice that Paul states that the time before the End of Days would be perilous (χαλεπός). In the entire New Testament, the only other place we find this Greek word is in Matthew 8:28, where it describes fierce demonic activity.

    Indeed, the word “perilous” likely comes from a Greek verb (χαλάω) that means “to let down from a higher place to a lower,” thereby creating a sort of spiritual “chasm” or rift, which again suggests that Satan’s activity will be increased upon the earth. In the “End of Days,” then, a wave of fierce demonic activity will appear upon the earth that will menace and terrorize others.

    Are we then to live in fear of these things? No. “There is no fear in God’s love” (φόβος οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ ἀγάπῃ). The Greek word translated “times” in this verse (καιροὶ) is also translated as “appointed times” (מוֹעֲדִים) in the Scriptures.

    God has appointed this time to be one of judgment upon the earth, and we are therefore forewarned so that we can speak the truth and offer healing to the world… God will never leave us nor forsake us; He will walk with us through the waters, and through the fires, chaverim (Isa. 43:2). Our Good Shepherd knows how to calm the storms around us…

    We are living in a decaying and moribund world, and the great age of apostasy will soon be coming to an end. Paul provided a list of nineteen characteristics that would mark the heart of people during this final period of human history. “People will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power” (2 Tim. 3:2-5).

    Noteworthy in this list is misdirected love. People will be “lovers of themselves,” “lovers of money,” “lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God,” and “not lovers of good.”

    Godless self-centeredness will be the “norm” of the day…. And even though he was being prophetic (i.e., speaking of the End of Days), Paul linked thesemiddot ra’ot (evil attributes) to the character of false teachers presently in the church, and warned Timothy that Satan can masquerade as an “angel of light.” Therefore we are to have nothing to do with those who pervert the gospel message (2 Tim. 3:5).

    These false teachers would come to an end just as did “Jannes and Jambres” (Paul here cites a midrash regarding the identity of two of the Egyptian magicians who opposed Moses and whose rods were swallowed up by Aaron’s rod in Exod. 7:11-12).

    Paul then encouraged Timothy to “stay the course” and to refuse to exercise false “tolerance” in light of these conditions… Now more than ever we must abide by the truth and refuse to compromise the message of the gospel. We must never forget the reality and certainty of Yeshua’s soon return.

    In what may have been Paul’s last recorded words, he writes: “I charge you in the presence of God and the Messiah Yeshua, who is the Judge of the living and the dead (הֲשׁפֵט אֶת־הַחַיִּים וְאֶת־הַמֵּתִים), and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching (διδασκαλία), but will cater to their passions and gather around themselves teachers who say whatever their ears itch to hear.

    Yes, they will stop listening to the truth, but will turn aside to wander after myths” (1 Tim. 4:1-4). The phrase “having itchy ears” may be an idiom for satisfying their curiosity – they “itch” to hear things, in other words, that appeal to their sensuous nature rather than dealing with the underlying heart issue… They may be superficially interested in doctrine, but only because it satisfies their desire to be “in the know” about the latest religious ideas, etc.

    All this leads to a sober assessment of the purpose of studying the Jewish roots of our faith. Some people genuinely seek to better know and love their Savior by engaging in the study of Hebrew, the Jewish holidays, and so on, while others undoubtedly do so because they “itch” to hear things in an attempt to satisfy their curiosity…

    Thomas Aquinas’ most significant work was his Summa theologiae or ‘Summary of Theology,’ a massive book that attempted to systematize all of Christian theology. He worked on it from 1266 through 1273, but when he was nearly finished, he underwent an experience so intense that, as he himself explained, everything he had written “seemed like straw.” He thereafter gave up writing about theology after he encountered the Reality itself.

    There are a countless ways to become self-deceived, chaverim. “Every man’s way is ‘right in his own eyes’ (יָשָׁר בְּעֵינָיו), but the LORD weighs the heart” (Prov. 21:2). There is a saying that we are “only as sick as the secrets we keep.” That applies first of all to ourselves.

    We must get past self-deception and wishful thinking in order to soberly see who we really are…. Earnest, fervent prayer “availeth much,” for it is the means by which we can get away from pretense and appeal to the LORD for help.

    We are to be “doers” of the Word, and not hearers only, since faith without works is dead and leads to self-deception (lit., “reasoning around” the truth, i.e., παραλογίζομαι, from παρά, “around, beside” and λογίζομαι, “to reason”). Only those who follow through and live their faith will be blessed in their actions (James 1:25). This mirrors Yeshua’s statement, “If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them” (John 13:17).

    “Examine yourselves to see whether you are living the life of trust. Test yourselves. Don’t you realize that Yeshua the Messiah is in you? – unless you fail to pass the test” (2 Cor. 13:5). The message of the Messiah is central. Yeshua is the beginning and the end.

    Simply put, trusting in the sacrificial life, death, and resurrection of Yeshua as your personal righteousness before the Father is the central commandment of all the Scriptures…” (John Parsons, Hebrew4Christians).

    Blessing to you!
    Psalm 27

  88. The fundamental foundation of the pretrib view… it is found in the time of Jacob’s trouble. This concept sets the setting for the dispensational belief of separation between Israel and the church, and thus the separation of rapture from the second coming. Because the time of Jacob’s trouble is unlike any other, it pinpoints a time in Israel’s history. Naturally the worst case scenario for the world is at the time of the great tribulation, and it is ASSUMED that this is true for Israel as well. However, Scripture show differently.

    Two provisions concerning the time of Jacob’s trouble prove that this time is NOT the great tribulation. The two chapter prophesy in Jeremiah (30,31) shows that, 1) it is the worse time ever of Israel (jer. 30:7), and 2) it causes Israel to be scattered to the end of the earth (Jer. 30,10,11, 31:8). Isaiah tells us that after Israel is gathered from the ends of the earth she will never be scattered again. Israelites were scattered and killed in 70 AD to what historians estimate an extent of 60% (paralleling Zech 13:7-9):, and later totally eradicated from Jerusalem by 162 AD. She was later gathered in 1948 to become a nation. Interesting that it is estimated that 6 million Jews were killed on the onset of this scattering by the Romans, and 6 million Jews were killed at the end by Hitler and the Germans right before they were gathered. This undeniable time of scattering to the end of the earth was indeed the worst case scenario for Israel. This post does a great job pointing out the brighter future and return of the Messiah concerning Israels future.

    When the Messiah returns and touches down in Israel. Israel will be occupied by Jews. Yes there will be captivity (not scattering) and division in Jerusalem… Zech. 14:2, but not to the extent that happened in the Roman occupation…. Zech. 13:7-9.

    The scattering of Israel only happened once in Israel’s history and will never happen again. The time of Jacob’s trouble is not about the great tribulation, but rather 70 AD. through 1948 AD. This further show that Matt. 24:21 if it is speaking directly of Israel and not worldwide, then it too speaks of 70 AD. Which by the why the disciples asked specifically concerning the destruction of the temple, “When will these things be?”… Matt. 24:3. If you do not see that the abomination of desolation answers this specific question of the disciples concerning 70 AD, then you must realize that you are suggesting that Jesus ‘blew off’ this specific question that the disciples asked and He did not answer them this question. The abomination of desolation is not mentioned in the rest of the New Testament, and it does not refer to the time of the end. Titus fulfilled this prophesy as well as the ending of the daily sacrifices and left Jerusalem and the temple desolate. The fact that the daily sacrifices ended and should be as sign to all who attempt to suggest that the seventh week is futuristic. Daniel was not the first to use the term “week”. Enoch who is believed to be the first to utilize the written language and referenced by Jude in the New Testament used this term many times. Never did it refer to a seven year period. But if it is 7 years, it is interesting to note that in 3.5 years of Titus conquest (66 to 70 AD) to end the Jewish uprising, the temple was destroyed thus fulfilling Daniel 9:27.

    The separation of Israel and the church is a fabrication. The apostles taught that we are graphed in and that the walls of separation have been brought down… Eph 2:11+. The separation doctrine of dispensationalism is founded in a lie that the great tribulation is for Israel, because of the term “Jacob”

  89. 3.5 years, 42 months, chapter 11. 3.5 years, 42 months, chapter 13. Satan and his sngels being cast out of heaven in chapter 12. I know we have all been taught differently, this is why we must read the scripture and pray, ask God to show us the truth. God Bless ;-)

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