Angel in the Bush

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If God was in the bush, why did the angel have to be there?

The angel is in the bush.

Exd 3:2

And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

Then, the Lord God is in the bush

Exd 3:4

And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.

Both the angel AND God are in the bush!

Angels are messengers for God.

It is not typical for God to come along with the angel to deliver the message, when he has already delegated the task of delivery to the angel.

If God speaks directly, he does not need an angel.

So why was the angel of the Lord and God both in the same bush?

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What made this angel different?

Clues

The predominant word for God here is Elohim, which is plural.

Elohim is used to denote judgment.

But the word YHVH is also used, with the angel of the Lord.

YHVH is used to denote compassion.

“Angel of the Lord” is translated in Hebrew as Malak YHVH, not Malak Elohim.

Malak YHVH is the compassionate side of Elohim, which is plural, and denotes the presence of the Godhead.

Notice (below) how there seems to be 2 personalities coming from the bush.

The named speaker changes back and forth from the word Elohim to Yehovah, as if 2 personalities were speaking, not one:


And the angel

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מלאך mal’ak

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of the LORD

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יהוה Yĕhovah

And when the LORD

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יהוה Yĕhovah

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saw

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ראה ra’ah

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that he turned aside

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סור cuwr

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to see,

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ראה ra’ah

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God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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called

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קרא qara’

Moreover he said,

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אמר ‘amar

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I [am] the God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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of thy father,

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אב ‘ab

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the God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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of Abraham,

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אברהם ‘Abraham

And Moses

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משה Mosheh

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hid

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סתר cathar

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his face;

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פנים paniym

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for he was afraid

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ירא yare’

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to look

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נבט nabat

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upon God.

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אלהים ‘elohiym

And the LORD

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יהוה Yĕhovah

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said,

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אמר ‘amar

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I have surely

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ראה ra’ah

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seen

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ראה ra’ah

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the affliction

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עני `oniy

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of my people

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עם `am

And Moses

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משה Mosheh

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said

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אמר ‘amar

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unto God,

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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Behold, [when] I come

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בוא bow’

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unto the children

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בן ben

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of Israel,

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ישראל Yisra’el

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and shall say

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אמר ‘amar

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unto them, The God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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of your fathers

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אב ‘ab

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hath sent

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שלח shalach

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me unto you; and they shall say

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אמר ‘amar

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to me, What [is] his name?

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שם shem

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what shall I say

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אמר ‘amar

And God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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said

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אמר ‘amar

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unto Moses,

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משה Mosheh

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I AM

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היה hayah

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THAT I AM:

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היה hayah

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and he said,

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אמר ‘amar

And God

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אלהים ‘elohiym

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said

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אמר ‘amar

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unto Moses,

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משה Mosheh

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I AM

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היה hayah

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THAT I AM:

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היה hayah

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and he said,

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אמר ‘amar

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Thus shalt thou say

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אמר ‘amar

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unto the children

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בן ben

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of Israel,

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ישראל Yisra’el

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I AM hath sent

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שלח shalach

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me unto you.

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Also, as a secondary note, notice that Hayah above, in green, is translated as “I AM.” Actually it means “I SHALL BE.”

יהוה means I am

היה means I shall be

Back to topic – Elohim vs Yehovah

Elohim is plural

Yehovah is singular.

What I think is happening here is that the Godhead is present, and either the Godhead (Father, Son and Spirit, plural) is speaking, or YHVH (the Son, singular) is speaking.

The Spirit is manifested in the fire, just as He was at Pentecost. He is visible and tangible.

Pentecost is actually a feast day of this event on Sinai.

The Son is manifested as the Angel of the Lord. He is also visible and tangible.

The Father is invisible, but present. His face cannot be seen by man.

A clue that might suggest that the Angel of the Lord is divine, and not just a heavenly messenger:

Zechariah 3: 1-4

And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

the angel

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מלאך mal’ak

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of the LORD,

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יהוה Yĕhovah

And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

And the LORD

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יהוה Yĕhovah

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said

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אמר ‘amar

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unto Satan,

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שטן satan

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The LORD

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יהוה Yĕhovah

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rebuke

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גער ga`ar

Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

And he [angel of the Lord] answered and spoke unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

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Strong’s

Root Form (Hebrew)

Tense

And he answered

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ענה `anah

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and spake

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אמר ‘amar

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unto those that stood

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עמד `amad

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before

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פנים paniym

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him, saying,

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אמר ‘amar

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Take away

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סור cuwr

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the filthy

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צאי tsow’

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garments

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בגד beged

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from him. And unto him he said,

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אמר ‘amar

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Behold,

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ראה ra’ah

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I have caused thine iniquity

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עון `avon

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to pass

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עבר `abar

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from thee, and I will clothe

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לבש labash

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thee with change ofraiment.

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מחלצות machalatsah

In the passage above, the Angel of the Lord causes the iniquity of Joshua to “pass away.”

Only God can do this. Only God can forgive sins.

If one remembers the gospels and the life of Christ, one will also recall that Yeshua ( Jesus ) also forgave sins.

For this reason, I propose that Jesus was / is the Malak Yehovah, the Angel of the Lord.

This was his title before he came to earth.


380 Responses to “Angel in the Bush”

  1. Neat!

  2. Shalom Marianne, Thanks this is great! I’m sharing some more here:
    I AM that I AM
    ~~~ When The Angel of The LORD appeared to Moses in the Burning Bush, Moses asks God, “What shall I say unto them (the Children of Israel)”? The LORD responded in the Book of Exodus 3:14,
    ~~~ “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”
    In the New Testament, we see where Yeshua (Jesus) said to the Disciples and to the Jewish People “I AM THE” in ways which are very important to all of us (Jewish and Gentile People), especially in our relationship to Him.
    – The Son of God
    – The Bread
    – The Light
    – The Door
    – The Good Shepherd
    – The Resurrection
    – The Way
    – The Vine
    – The First
    – The Root
    ~~~ John 8:56-58 – (56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (57) Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
    ~~~ Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I AM THE Son of God.
    ~~~ John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I AM THE bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    ~~~ John 6:41 The Jews (some of) then murmured at him, because he said, I AM THE bread which came down from heaven.
    ~~~ John 6:51 I AM THE living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
    ~~~ John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I AM THE light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
    ~~~ John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I AM THE light of the world.
    ~~~ John 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM THE door of the sheep.
    ~~~ John 10:9 I AM THE door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
    ~~~ John 10:11 I AM THE good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    ~~~ John 10:14 I AM THE good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
    ~~~ John 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I AM THE Son of God?
    ~~~ John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I AM THE resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
    ~~~ John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
    ~~~ John 15:1 I AM THE true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
    ~~~ John 15:5 I AM THE vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    ~~~ Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE first and the last:
    ~~~ Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM THE root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. http://www.shalom-peace.com/iams.html

    Be Blessed.

  3. Fascinating! I was in a group that was just discussing this yesterday! Amazing! Beautiful!

  4. WELL THOUGHT OUT..
    THOROUGHLY RESEARCED..
    THOUGHTFULLY PRESENTED.
    and I’m sure many hours spent on it.. led by the Spirit..

    WELL DONE Marianne !!
    Indeed God in 3 Person was present in front of Moses at the burning bush.. and indeed it was on holy ground, the place Moses was standing. [Exodus 3:5]

  5. Enoch carried away the sins of the world in 1 Enoch 64:5. Jesus limited his ministry to his own lifetime in John 9:4-5 (“sent US” in 9:4 as in C. Sinaiticus). The Master must be a living one to save. Why don’t people quote the next verse when saying “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”? “If you had known me you would have known the Father also, henceforth you know Him and have SEEN Him” (John 14:7). All those saved have to have had opportunity to SEE their Master (John 6:40). All those Jesus saved were “IN THE WORLD” in John 17:11, and 13:1. John the Baptist was a savior, and Jesus’ Master. He BAPTIZED him. James was his successor, also a savior. Gospel of Thomas: “Go to James, for whose sake heaven and earth WERE CREATED.” There is a savior here in the flesh today: http://www.RSSB.org

    • robert

      You are confused. John the baptist in no way tried to be the master of jesus.

      he told others that he was not even worthy to untie the shoes of Jesus.

      • But Marianne, you don’t realize — this is just what any Master does for the successor. I have seen it first hand at the feet of my own Master, Charan Singh. Why would Jesus laud his predecessor the same way? (John 5:35: “You were willing to rejoice for a season in his Light.” and Matt. 11:11: “No one born of woman greater than John” –“he who is least … ” was a gloss, not original to Matthew. Get a Hebrew Matthew version like Shem Tov and check for yourself.) Because he wants to accord honor to the one who baptized HIM. The canon is hopelessly corrupted. I wrote a book on it called “Saviors”. The Bible is full of saviors. Have you not read Obadiah 1:21? James followed Jesus. Gospel of Thomas has Jesus praising his greatness, like I said above. The Church picked up Paul’s false gospel, condemned in Matt. 24:5-15 in the original Hebrew as the AntiChrist, when “preached to all the nations” (24:15). So much has been altered in the canon that it cannot be used as a guidebook, like Christians all do, for salvation. I used to BE a Christian, so I know. I am just like anyone else, trying to make sense of these events so long ago. It helps to have someone who KNOWS. Read books available at RSSB.org. Many are written by Masters, and several about the New Testament (“Light on St. Matthew”, “Light on St. John, by Maharaj Charan Singh). God bless you in your search for truth.

    • Robert, this religion you are into is ecumenical no different from the Catholic religious system of which Hinduism is the Mother Board (very ancient) that was started by the Nephillim the demon angels that cohabited with the daughters of Cain and brought forth giants and other abominable “half-human-half-animal-beings,& serpentine beings” which are being worshiped all over India and other nations in the East… and now also in the West.. and you are become a worshiper of them.
      ~~~ The ending word of your website “Beas” refers to the town near which the main centre is located in Northern India. .. Here is the Beas-River take a look. http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/3306239 – that YAHWEH created with a different name. One of the branches of the main River (River Gihon) in Genesis flows through India in the Himalayas. Himalaya or Himala is “HAVILAH”.
      Majority of us are here to learn and to share what we know of YAHWEH’s WORD – The True God of Israel. Please look more deeply into the Torah for the Truth for Yeshua(Jesus) is the Truth, The Way, & the Life. You quoted right. So now leave your Religion and get into a Relationship with YAHWEH, for HE only is the great “I AM” who can save you.

    • Robert, we will all pray that you see the light before it is to late and also for all those that you are leading and still going to lead to destruction by the twisted so called truth that you are selling them.
      May the Lord Almighty have mercy on your soul.

  6. Jes,

    Wow. I never knew we were in Genesis! What is your point? I’ve been there many times. You are not likely to convince me that I am following a false religion. Christianity is the false one, not Sant Mat. There is much support for that position, not least of which is Genesis 2:10-11: “A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden and there it divided and became four rivers. (10) The name of the first in Pishon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; and the gold of that land is good; bdelium and onyx stone are there.” (11)

  7. Hi Robert, you asked me what is your point? OK, the reason I brought up about the Rivers is because I checked out your website and found the word ‘Beas’ and then looked it up and found the picture of the Beas River. It’s beautiful. India is beautiful and it is very Biblically connected. In fact because of the word ‘Beas’ I ended up doing a whole write up of 2 pages on the 4 Rivers of Genesis and the land of Havilah – that would have been too long to post here and also it was out of context to the article on this blog. Anyways, the reason I wrote what I wrote is because I noticed that your religion is a mixture of beliefs. RSSB and Sant Mat are firmly rooted in the Sikh, Hindu, and Muslim religious traditions of northern India. O, and I did not say that Christianity is the truth, it is another tentacle of the Mother Board. Those who follow truthfully the Word of YAHWEH from Genesis to Revelation are Natsarim, branches/watchmen. During the time of the Apostles the Natsarim were very specific in their labeling of themselves, since their label referred to the One they were followers of, Yahusha of Natsarith. The word Christianity is a corruption of Natsarim translated from Greek which is a corrupted, polluted language to begin with — having many Pagan deities’ names and titles associated with it.

    Stick around, this is a great blog and you are going to learn a lot from Marianne and different commenters here.

  8. Jes, I was curious what the significance of the gold and stones is, in your opinion. And the Gihon is in the “Cush”. Is that like Hindu Cush Mtns? The main feature of the teachings I follow, which I don’t see as “beliefs”, just teachings, is the centrality of the living Master. I think that is what John 6:40, 9:4-5, 12:35-36, 14:6-7, 17:11 among others are alluding to. When you have spent as much time as I have around two different Masters, the doubt vanishes. I think the teachings are exactly the same. And I know this from many sources rooted in the first century. All the Dead Sea, gnostic, canonical, and apocryphal sources. I have read nearly all of it. Sant Mat is the underlying reality. From Seth on,”They began to call on the Name of the Lord [Word].” Genesis 4:26. I know the Gospel of Judas better than any scholar. I have spoken to all of them, by phone or email. It is truly fascinating. Much more so than any of them know. Judas is the ‘sacrifice’, not Jesus. This is mystic truth.

    • W O W

      • Hi lisa,
        I see you are surprised. Would you believe me if I told you that majority of the Afghanistan people are of the Israelite descent, the lost tribe of Ephraim and other tribes? There are groups of the tribe of Ephraim, Manasseh, & Levites in India and I’m in touch with the true Ephraimites (in India) who had settled there since 2300years ago Messiah Yeshua will gather them up when He comes. I’m a digger of the TORAH and what I find in IT is truly Gems that blow me off. …. Be Blessed.

  9. Jes,

    Email me material at sahansdal at yahoo dot com. You can find my book at Xlibris and Amazon: “Saviors: Beyond Qumran, Nag Hammadi, and the New Testament Code” by Robert Wahler

    –Bob Wahler

  10. “(It) is conclusively shown, almost unbelievably, by Jesus himself to be the perpetrator of the greatest fraud in the history of mankind” $19.99

    Christ speaks through many and God speaks through angels and God speaks through Christ $free.

    • true. Jesus died so that the truth would be free to everyone. I do not sell anything here for that reason.

    • David,

      I said you can find my book on Amazon. I didn’t say to please buy it. I will email a pdf of it to any who send me an email request for it. Then you can critique it for free after actually reading it. I am not a destroyer of faith. I offer something better than what you’ve got. I used to be a Christian, so I know what that is. I simply learned since that the New Testament isn’t what people think it is.

    • BTW, David, you should never intentionally distort another’s work by misrepresenting it. You took a quote from my book off the website and altered it ambiguously. It said PAUL was shown to be the perpetrator of the greatest fraud in the history of mankind. I stand by that statement. Not only that, I say no one will ever top it, because we have the Internet now. Too many are literate and reading now for someone like Paul to gain such worldwide traction.
      Did you know that in Paul’s time less than 1% could even write their own name? And for centuries only clergy were allowed to even look at the scripture for fear the people might actually see something there.

  11. To share His glory and service God always delegates through creatures.

    It’s a simple basic fact acknowledged by Christianity for 2000 years. Jesus was clear about the sorts of people who demand signs and wonders.

    This is the meaning of the beatitude, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” The meek children of the Father see God where others see the ordinary and demand drama.

  12. You got some interesting comments going on here Marianne. I agree with what you said – I believe the trinity was present. I just love how Christ appeared at different times in the Old Testament times, that’s so cool! Perhaps the Angel of the Lord was the pre-conception Christ? (And for the record Christ is not an angel.)
    What do you think?

    • hi groveonline

      No christ is not an angel, but the early hebrews did not know what else to call him. They knew he was a supernatural being, similar to an angel, but different, so they used the closest word they could think up. the human language has its limits.

      • It sure does! In the truest meaning of the word angel (messenger from God) Christ fulfilled that role in the OT and ultimately he brought the message of God with Us and the Gospel to mankind. So he is a messenger but not an angel.
        What are some other times Christ has shown up in the OT? Perhaps this is worthy of a post of its own.

        • the Lord and 2 angels visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

          The Lord was also with the 3 Hebrews in the fiery furnace.

          He also had a nice chat with Gideon.

          • And who could have been with Daniel in the “lion’s den” – but the LION OF YEHUDA (Judah)? YESHUA? … Hmm! interesting!!

            • nope Jesus is no ordinary savior!

              • I was just guessing but then your comment made me dig. I’m glad I did for this is what I learned.
                • I am in the midst of lions; I lie among ravenous beasts— men whose teeth are spears and arrows, whose tongues are sharp swords. Psalms 57:4
                • Then the king commanded and they brought Daniel and threw him into the lions’ pit. The king exclaimed to Daniel, “May your GOD, Whom you serve continually, save you!” A stone was brought and was placed over the opening of the pit, and the king sealed it with his signet ring and with the signet rings of his nobles, so that his will regarding Daniel could not be changed (Daniel 6:16-17)
                • And when he came to the den and to Daniel, he cried out in a voice of anguish. The king said to Daniel, O Daniel, servant of the living GOD, is your GOD, Whom you serve continually, able to deliver you from the lions? Then Daniel said to the king, O king, live forever! My GOD has sent His [ ANGEL ] and has shut the lions’ mouths so that they have not hurt me, because I was found innocent and blameless before Him; and also before you, O king, [as you very well know] I have done no harm or wrong. Daniel 6:20-22
                (Who is this ANGEL? Generally when angels are sent by GOD, their names are mentioned in the Scriptures. In this Scripture it is not, so we can’t assume that it is not Yeshua.)

                • The Hebrew word for “Savior” in the OT is yasha (Strong’s #3467) which means:
                — to be safe
                — to free
                — to succor (help)
                — avenging
                — defend
                — deliver or deliverer
                — preserve
                — rescue
                — bring salvation
                — save or savior
                — get victory
                • Yasha occurs over one hundred times in the Old Testament and is translated “Savior” only thirteen times, eight of which are in Isaiah. The first occurrence of the word “savior” occurs in II Samuel 22:2-3 where we find the GOD of the Old Testament being described:
                • “YEHOVAH is my Rock, my Fortress, and my Deliverer; the GOD of my rock, in him will I trust; He is my Shield, and the Horn of my salvation, my High Tower, and my Refuge, MY SAVIOR; you save me from violence.”

  13. Since I was told to prophesy. I bring what I hope is a word of encouragment.
    “For me and my house we shall serve the Lord” !!! How difficult is that, no man can get another man into heaven. Each must enter his journey and take up his cross.

    Many go into transes and they open a path to spirits that are other than the Lord. if you are practicing Yoga, you are in a path that is not related to the Lord. How easy to understand, only one name that all must bow to “Jesus Chirst”.

    The Lord is also the only door by which any man shall commune with God. If you have seen the Father you have seen the son and visa versa. Many forget, unless you take that journey and go through the door and find him and enter into the race how ill you be saved?

    I had three short visions this past week.

    I saw clouds of black haze risiing. The haze cleared and I saw myself standing in a field and the field was full of lush green thick health crop. It was as far as my eyes were allowed to see. My eye was drawn to the right and the sun was shining brightly in the sky. To the right of the sun was the cloud and over then I saw missile come from behind and flying forward.

    I have been praying for the nation of Israel and the salvation of man kind, as I know all who come to this website do. As we know God has no desire for any of us to perish, even the one who has wicked throughts to the nation of Israel. God loves us all, it is his desire that we would all take the narrowest path and go to the gate that is straight. That is the path that leads to Heaven, we know there is nothing new under the sun.

    I had a dream and there was a wall of fire and at that wall were men and women with holy hands lifted up in the spirit of fire (which is God). A
    women with short white blond hair and a dress of a leopard was standing in the center, it seemed she was orchestrating men on ladders and dressed in firemens uniforms to shoot hoses of waters up into the air to put out the Holy ghost fires.

    Rights around the world are being taken away every day now. Please pray to lift up the nation of Israel and all of man kind to God for the final field of the latter day rains. Many are dying for the faith, if you life in a free nation and your voice has not been silenced use it to God that the walls fire not be extinguished by the one world system that is coming as God loves us all, he gave his only begotten son that we should live.

    At the end of the missle dream I saw an Angel appear in the sky and it was on a white horse. I do not believe that this Angel was our savior but the Angel that God sent with the message. It had blond hair and it had the colors of the aqu and white the color of the horse, and it left like in a circle motion back up into the clouds.

    Understand him, know who he is, as there is Only one way to Heaven,

    Psalm 135:7
    He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind feom his storehouses.

    Ecclesiastes 1:6 the wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.

    Ecclesiastes 11:5
    as you do not know the path of the wind, or how the body is fromed in a mother’s womb, so you cannot understand the work of God, the Maker of all things.

    Ezekiel 37:9 then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This what the Sovereign LORD says: come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.'”

    John 3:3-7

    Jesus answered and said unto him, verily, verily, I say unto thee,Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.
    4.)
    Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot eneter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
    5.)
    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I sy unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6.)
    That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7.)
    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8.)
    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    If you have already done these requirements, then, let us pray for the Holy ghost fire not to be put out but to bring the fullness of the latter day rain. That all may be wet again and those who have not enter in by the way of the door through the path that is narrow to the gate with the in filling of the Holy ghost fire as it fell on the day of Pentecost. Let us pray that they shall knock, seek and that they shall find and be filled.

    Be blessed, he is know secret! What he has given to others he will give to you. We can not enter without the rebirth.

  14. Hi Robert, I guess I did miss out on a few points in my comments. I sometimes get carried away in the research I do. However, my emphasis was on “I AM THAT I AM” who is YESHUA(Jesus).
    (a) The reason I landed into Gen.6: is because you mention that “Enoch carried away the sins of the world – Did he really? Then wouldn’t the whole world be saved instead of just Noah and his family and the creatures in the Ark? The Giants and their offspring also would have been saved? What would be the purpose of the flood then? And wouldn’t we all be the ugliest creatures on earth? – ((1-Enoch-64:5 = 64:5 He said to me: Why hast thou cried out to me with a bitter cry and lamentation?)) – Your understanding conflicts with the scripture and eliminates the “I AM THAT I AM” = (Jesus Christ) the One who took away the sins of the world.
    Then you say : “There is a savior in the flesh today” – Well, put the brakes on, because the Great I AM = Yeshua (Jesus) the Savior has not arrived yet but will very, soon in Flesh & Blood to totally cleanse and reorganize this entire Planet Earth. Then all the so-called masters and saviors of the world including those you know, and if they are still alive when Jesus comes, will tremble and worship Him with their faces down to the ground.
    (b) I got into the Rivers of Eden topic is because I was curious to know the meaning of your religious system and then found the name & pics. All these mountains and rivers have some Hindu god or goddess names but remember they all belong to “I AM THAT I AM” (Jesus) – because He created them. The landscapes are beautiful but did you see all those pilgrims and the flags tied on strings on those mountains? Those are energy flags in order to reach the peak where the Hindu godhead is supposed to be sitting. What an arduous journey! Unbelievable, that such is required from this god – but with “ I AM THAT I AM” (Jesus) it’s a different scenario – He comes into our hearts when we call upon Him.
    (c) Gold of Havilah (Himalaya) – India has plenty of gold to the extent that they will buy oil with gold. http://www.debka.com/article/21673/ Think about it, which nation has come forward particularly in these times of world crisis to buy oil in gold??? Now much of India is pagan, so why is it prospering? (Genesis 12: 1-3. “I AM THAT I AM” said to ‘Avram, ” Leave your land, your contemporaries and your father’s house for a land which I shall show you; (2) and I shall make you a great nation, I shall bless you and make your name famous; you are to be a blessing! (3) I shall bless those who bless you, and shall curse those who curse you, and all clans on earth will bless themselves by you) – In the past India has always been the Hub for refugees of any country that suffered persecution – This Great Nation took in a great number of the JEWS fleeing from various nations from past Inquisitions, were sheltered and looked after since 2700+ years ago and until this day. These same JEWS have contributed greatly to India by building Giant Organizations & more. The ‘I AM THAT I AM” has looked down kindly upon this gentile nation and blessed her. “I AM THAT I AM” keeps his promise and never ever fails and does not ask for anything in return but to follow His Instructions.
    Your question on gold answered; http://news.yahoo.com/22-billion-gold-jewels-found-india-temple-083728982.html – The Hindu Cush Mountains are in the Afghanistan region which was in ancient times a part of India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Afghanistan So why were they bomb-blasting the Afghan mountains, were they after Bin-Ladin, does he really exist? Now you know the reason!! BTW Pakistan has all the Onyx you can think of. All this belongs to “EHYEH ASHER EHYEH=I AM THAT I AM – THE ALEPH BETH – YESHUA HAMASHIYACH – JESUS CHRIST – ALL GLORY & PRAISE BE TO HIM!!
    OK, lastly; you quoted: “Much more so than any of them know. Judas is the ‘sacrifice’, not Jesus.” This is mystic truth. – So, do you believe this lie? By the way just curious, do you do meditation? – Have a nice day!!

    Sorry Marianne, I’ll try to keep it short next time. Was just trying to fit all in.

    • Thanks, that was a courteous response. I have studied this extensively. Especially the Gospel of Judas. I was amazed myself when I realized what it was really saying. I would only have recognized its truth by having been familiar with Sant Mat, the Teachings of the Saints (and they include Jesus Christ). Where did Jesus ever say he was the sole savior forever and ever??? No one can show it BECAUSE HE NEVER SAID IT. The way salvation works is the SON, who is a spiritual entity, incarnates in humans in an endless procession. That didn’t sit well with church fathers who wanted to CONTROL people. A living Master cannot be kept quiet. A DEAD one says nothing. They needed one good dead one. Go read the Apocalypse of Peter, or the Habakkuk Pesher sometime to see what the real early Christians thought of Paul and his false doctrine. (Paul is the one who “removed the boundary markers of the law”, and was “the one without the law” in these scriptures.) I would think all Christians should be interested to know. He invented sacrificial atonement. Jesus HATED sacrifice. That is why he there out the moneychangers. What did they sell? Sacrificial ANIMALS. Jesus and all of his disciples were vegetarian, as shown in historical accounts like Epiphanius and Eusebius. It is well documented, take my word.

      Yes, I meditate. “They who worship me must worship in spirit and in truth” is in reference to meditating. “WATCH and pray” is meditation (Matt. 26:40). Listening to the sound of the “wind” in John 3:8 is MEDITATION. Why is that so threatening? All throughout the Bible devotees meditate. 1 Samuel 3:11 is meditation. David and Goliath is meditation (he hurls 5 stones, or the five holy names, at the third or single eye of his ego-self, “Goliath”to overcome his lower desires). The “tithing” both Abraham and Jacob do in Genesis 4 and 28 is meditation. I know because it says nothing about “goods” tithed, and it is for a “tenth” or 2 and half hours, the same time required daily today. Melchizedek had no use for Abrahm’s stuff.

      The Spirit is WITHIN you. That is why Judas “sacrificed” the man (himself) that covered the true man, Jesus, his Master. But the Master MUST be alive at the tome of the disciple. You felt me: WHY did he say John 9:4-5? The correct translation includes “sent US” not the corrupted “sent me”, which changed the meaning to simply a reference to God. Jesus only said this because he was limited just like the rest of us to do his work WHILE LIVING. You don’t believe him when he said “I go to the Father now, but they [his “given” — ALL of them] are IN THE WORLD….” IN John 17:11. JOHN 13:1 has John saying the same thing. You are following a false teaching of some very bad men, beginning with PAUL. It is so all-consuming that few seem to be able to get out of it, even when confronted with the truth like I am telling you now! Paul got his doctrine from a Septuagint misread of Genesis 15:6. God didn’t reckon Abraham righteous, Abraham did! Works are part of salvation. Sorry Paul. Matt. 7:21.

      Get a healthy skepticism of the Bible. It has some beautiful truth, especially the OT, but the NT is full of very damaging falsehoods. Paul is the source. He is 4 times condemned roundly by Jesus prophetically. The Dead Sea Scrolls Pesherim are scathing rebukes of him. Read Robert Eisenman on this. Sant Mat is the true teaching, not the NT. Trust me. I was a 24/7 Evangelical for three years long ago. I know what I’m talking about. I used to LIVE with Christians around the clock. You will not be saved by a past Master. He MUST be living. “It is the will of my Father that every one who SEES the Son and believes …” (John 6:40) not “confess and believe”, as Paul would have it (Rom. 10:9). Anyone can do that. You are chosen, not the other way round.

      • Robert

        You do not know the real Jesus. Only something fabricated from the gnostic gospels. Judas was a traitor, and not a savior. And the gospel of judas was written 300 years after Judas died.

        • I never said I did! No one can “know” someone who lived in another time. I know HIS TEACHINGS. They are taught in India by a present day line of Masters, just like John, Jesus, James, Simeon, and Judas did in their time. You rely on very old documents that passed through corruption hands for centuries. The gnostic gospels came pout of the ground a few years ago in the same words that were put into the ground by persecuted devotees. You would do well to read them and what perceptive scholars like Robert Eisenman and Marvin Meyer say about them. (I email them both regularly, and they likewise).

      • Very New Age Robert. Are you a follower of Lucis Trust. Are you able to interact, and see your assended Master?

        How do you feel about Aliens vs fallen Angels?

      • Comment to the one {Robert} who denies Christ as the Savior of the world. Let me tell you why you are so confused and have zero knowledge of the Holy Bible; it is because the Bible is only written for the children of God to read and understand it – not for the children of the devil- it is the Voice of the Almighty, the Majesty, the Creator of ALL creation. He only REVEALS His Word to those who believe in His Son, Jesus, the Messiah. Jesus says, I only speak what I hear My Father say and I only do what I see My Father do. This is for the Children of God – We follow Jesus. The Bible is NOT just a book – it is the Voice of God. It is filled with HIDDEN treasure and you my friend have been REFUSED of that knowledge.The Holy Spirit has not given you any knowlege, because He is Holy and He only reveals to those who are holy and righteous THROUGH CHRIST JESUS! We know them by their fruit. You are unfruitful and God will uproot any tree that does not bear fruit. You dont have the light in you. Jesus is the Light of the world and His Word GIVES light. You are in darkness and dont even know it. and you are blind to it. You have yeilded to Satan and your soul is in serious danger. If you CHOOSE to continue with your corruptable beliefs, it is my duty to warn you that you will perish to eternal hell. If you deny Jesus – you deny God The Father as well and you will be eternally seperated from God forever. Hell was created for all the fallen angels, demons and all who deny Christ and the Son of God, who died for your sins and rose in glory and sits at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven, to give you life. Jesus is the ONLY way, the TRUTH and the LIFE. …..oh, and Jesus did say in the Scriptures that He is the only way to heaven and the only One who can forgive sins. it is by His BLOOD, the ONLY BLOOD that can wash away sin!! He clearly said, I AM the only way. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me. Ask yourself this, why would God GIVE His only begotten Son to DIE, be tormented and CRUCIFIED, if only for Jesus to be a messenger? Jesus died so you can LIVE!! Jesus died because HE LOVES YOU!

        This is your fair warning – ACCEPT THE LAMB OF GOD OR FACE THE LION!! You choose!

        Gods beloved, Kellee

  15. Pattiefarm,

    Perhaps you don’t know that it was Yoga that Jesus taught. And you cited the passage yourself with John 3. The “wind” is “Pneuma” or Spirit. It is audible, as Word. Word means Sound or Voice or NAME of the Lord. IT ISN’T JESUS. The Word is the Holy Spirit. The Trinity was not in the original Matthew, but was ADDED. See “Original Gospel of Matthew”, by Douglas Del Tondo (aka Stanford Rives, pen name). You will see the correct 28:19, with no Trinity, merely, “Go”. In 28:9, Matthew has “May the Name deliver you.” It was not Jesus who saved, but the Name, or Word. It comes to the world in all times in many different persons. Jesus alluded to this himself in John 10:34-36.

    In John 3:8 the sound of the Word is heard, but it can’t be discerned where it comes from. It is everywhere. In meditation one can hear it, even before initiation (“baptism”). In Matthew 6:22 the body fills with Light when one makes the eye “single”, or opened to the inner worlds. This is the mystic “third eye” so widely known ion the East. DON’T BE AFRAID of mysticism. The entire Bible is mystic. Jesus taught mystic transcendence. One does not need a Priest, a Church, or even a religion. Only a Master is needed.
    Jesus was the Master of HIS time only. He tried to make that clear when he told them (for his ministry was verbal only, never written) “We must do the works of him who sent US while it is day [our lifetime]; night comes [our death], when NO ONE can work” -John 9:4 with the correct Codex Sinaiticus “sent US”. If that wasn’t clear enough, HE THEN SAYS: “AS LONG AS I am in the world, I am the Light of the world” – John 9:5. Why would he say that if he was still the “Light” after he was gone? “I am the Way…” is followed in John 14:6 by “If you had know me, you would have known the Father also; henceforth you know him, AND HAVE SEEN HIM” – John 14:7. He was NOT talking TO YOU. DO you see this now? John 6:40 says it is the Father’s will that “every one who SEES the Son [the Spirit in the savior] and believes” will be saved. He didn’t say “CONFESS and believe”, like Paul does, so anyone can be saved.

    The gospel you follow is not Jesus’. It is PAUL’S. The salvation Jesus offered had nothing to do with him dying. That is Greco-Roman mythology. Mark 10:45 is about Jesus coming to serve and giving his LIFE, not his death, as a ransom for many. The Greek is “psuchen”, or soul, breath, or life-force. If he meant his death as sacrifice, he would have said “for all” not many, because a death would be offered whether accepted OR NOT. The NT canon was written as an AntiSemitic diatribe against the Jews for a Greek-speaking readership. Jesus never commissioned its writing. It picked up a false gospel from PAUL and built a Church around it. Jesus himself condemned Paul at least four times prophetically in: Matt. 5:19, Paul as antinomian, the lawless one; 7:15-20, Paul as “ravening wolf” of tribe of Benjamin; 24:5-15 in the original Hebrew, Paul as false prophet and author of the AntiChrist teaching to the nations; and in Revelation 2:2-14, Paul as Balaam redivivus, teaching it was OK to eat things sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 10, Romans 14). Go to Douglas Del Tondo’s great website on this, “Jesus Words Only”. His whole book is available there online.

    It is gnosis that saves, not death, as in Isaiah 53:11, the famous Psalm supposedly showing Jesus as savior. It would be JAMES if anyone, as he was crushed (v 5) by stoning, but it was “knowledge” that made many to be accounted righteous, not anybody dying. Verse 10 has the servant making his “soul” an offering, as in Mark 10:45. James was known as the “Righteous Teacher” at Qumran, and was Jesus’ successor Master. (Read Robert Eisenman.) John the Baptist, who “baptized” him, was his predecessor Master, not simply a herald or “forerunner”. That is mythology. Luke even has John IN PRISON when Jesus was baptized, so embarrassed were the gospel writers by Jesus needing baptism himself. The canon is MYTH. NONE of the miracles happened, except maybe a few healings. Raising Lazarus was raising IN SPIRIT. “Walking” on water was meditation, not real water. The details show it was in fourth watch — meditation time, even today.

    The translation of oral tradition is the main trouble. In Matthew 26 and Mark 14, the canon has “paradidomi” as pejorative “to betray”, not the correct “to deliver”. Check Bible.cc.com. Judas is not the betrayer. The Holy Spirit is being “delivered”. “My Deliverer is at hand” he says. “Rise up [in Spirit!], let us be going [within!], my Deliverer is at hand [here, now, in meditation].” Jesus asks them to “watch AND pray”. He says “for an hour”. This is meditation. He is sad not because he is to die soon, but because he is LEAVING the disciples behind as he goes to the Father. He wants THAT cup to pass from him. Masters NEVER think about themselves. This is only our personal bias. We are not like them. In the Gospel of Judas, Jesus tells Judas that he will “exceed them all [the other disciples]”, as HE will “sacrifice the man that bears me” (56:20), meaning that JUDAS will no longer exist, not that Judas will betray Jesus. This is the story of Judas becoming a Master like his Master. He will “rule over them [the others]” (46:23). Earlier in this beautiful gnostic gospel Judas is told that “someone else will replace you” (36:1). That “someone” was JESUS! Mysticism is unfathomably beautiful. Living Masters come to show themselves to their disciples and take them to the Father personally. The little “you” is no more.

    • robert

      I think you are on the wrong website for your new age beliefs.

      Jesus is the Word of God made incarnate.

      You do not understand the bible whatsoever.

      You need to be open to correct explanations or you will be wasting your time here.

      best wishes intended.

  16. Marianne,

    New Age? Don’t understand the Bible whatsoever? Not open to correct explanations? Do you think YOU are immune from mistaken assumptions? Jesus TAUGHT what you call “New Age”. I didn’t say John was Elijah reincarnated: JESUS did (Matt. 17:11). And the rest of the verse in the original wording has “Elijah [John] will save all the world” not “restore all things”. Check Stanford Rives OGM site or George Howard’s “Hebrew Gospel of Matthew”. You are simply not informed. I can back up what I say.

    Perhaps you should read this from another blog:

    Hypocritical Christ-mythers: Cameron’s response to Neil Godfrey at Vridar — & my response back.

    in response to Neil Godfrey:

    Are you able to give us some case studies from Wrong or outline the principles brought out?
    From WRONG: “The problems with collaborative and community thinking have been highlighted by a stream of studies, starting with the Yale psychology researcher Irving Janis’s classic examination of ‘groupthink’ back in 1972, which showed how groups could reach terrible decisions that none of the individuals in the group ever would have made on his own. As Janis and many other have shown — and as most of us know all too well — groups are frequently dominated not by people most likely to be right, but by people who are belligerent, persuasive, persistent, manipulative or forceful. Those who are even mildly adept at getting people to go along with them can quickly form small alliances of viewpoint that may in turn convince others to join in, eventually swaying even those with doubts — most of us don’t want to be the odd man out. (Some of us may recall the old Candid Camera segment in which an unsuspecting victim steps onto an elevator filled with several in-on-the-joke riders who turn to face the back of the elevator, leading the victim, clearly against her better judgment, to do the same.) As Colin Camerer, a decision-science researcher at the California Institute of Technology told me, ‘Groups distribute responsibility for being wrong, so that individuals drop their guard against errors and bad judgment. Researchers have noted that the larger the number of people who contribute to a research project, the greater the chances that at least one of them will fabricate, misanalyze or otherwise distort data, and the harder it will be to track down the culprit. Once a wrong decision has been formed, even highly competent, confident people will be reluctant to voice opinions that go against it, thanks to the notion, drilled into our heads from elementary school up through the workplace, that forging cooperation and agreement is critical. ‘There’s a cultural norm of how we behave as professionals, and part of it is that we’re overly trained in consensus,’ says Daniel Eisenstadt, the director of the Philadelphia-based private-equity firm CMS. Eienstadt, a Harvard Business School graduate, points out that students at graduate schools are expected to quickly adapt themselves to a culture that favors building on others’ opinions rather than challenging them while also absorbing the opinions of their instructors wholesale. … Academic, financial and clinical researchers submit themselves to a pack mentality at least as easily as most sorts of groups or communities. ‘They go off on the wrong direction, following one another like any collection of humans,’ says Peter Sheridan Dodds, a University of Vermont mathematician who also does work in sociology and biology, among other fields.”

    Marianne, I am here as an independent thinker, not a faith wrecker. I only want to see others find the truth that lies hidden beneath their misconceptions. I know you have them. We all do. I do. it is time we all became free of them.

    • Robert

      You are always welcome to think what you want. But you have to understand your uncompromising viewpoint is very different from ours.

      I see the sky and say it is blue,

      You say the sky is red.

      So, we are both looking at the same sky and coming to different conclusions.

      • But, Marianne, the difference is that I’m the one saying it is blue, not you. I can show conclusively that your erroneous view is incorrect, and most often based on erroneous theology from Paul, or a corrupted text. It happens often. The rest is improper interpretation, like thinking the Son of man is a human. I can help you understand the true teachings, not the Pauline fabrication. I am not judging in any way. The facts are what they are. Let’s look together at them.

  17. Robert, what a waste of time it is communicating with you. Yeshua (Jesus) did say in Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town.

    Hope you will find the Truth before satan appears in the Seat of GOD and the wrath descends upon this world. For then there will not be Salvation.

  18. Please explain Jes, why it is a waste of time to talk to me. I’m not an apostle. I don’t take orders from Jesus. I am here to offer things I have learned, not to attack others. You are attacking me, and I see no reason for you to do that. I can, like I have said, back up anything I say with citation, from many ancient authorities. If you choose to reject any source but the Holy Bible, as is, you are simply ignorant of its history. I have my salvation with a true Master. You can too, but so far you are busy searching the scriptures for him, where you will not find him.

    • RW: “I don’t take orders from Jesus.”
      RW: “I have my salvation with a true Master.”
      RW: “you are busy searching the scriptures for him, where you will not find him.”
      RW: “If you …reject any source but the …Bible, …you are simply ignorant”
      =================================================================
      Dear RW, most of the people commonly posting here believe
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura . Since you do not believe ‘Sola Scriptura’ then there remains nothing in common to discuss between you and them. Peace to you.

      • SO, because someone is looking for his keys in the light of the streetlight, and not in the dark alley where he lost them, I should not participate?

        • Dear RW,

          When you effectively labeled we who believe ‘Sola Scriptura’ as being ignorant, you simultaneously disqualified yourself as one “looking for his keys”.

          If you can force yourself to do the following…

          Humble yourself by physically getting on your knees, and verbally ask the eternal God who made you, to forgive you for all of your offenses against your maker in the earth which he made, crying out for mercy by reason of the 100.0000% Clean blood of the eternal Jesus… ONLY THEN would there be reason to believe you were one “looking for his keys.”

          Again I say, peace to you.

          • I’m not looking for anything. I have found my Way. Look, I’M the one taking all the grief here. “no one wants to read you here”, “waste of time talking to me”, “Yoga? No not at all, but FAR better”, “Humble yourself” like I really need to before your God, “your messy religion”, “You do not know Jesus”. Back off. Christians are the insufferable ones. You don’t know yet how deceived you are. You will find out however. Sorry to be so blunt.

          • RW: “You don’t know yet how deceived you are.”
            RW: “You will find out however.”
            RW: “Sorry to be so blunt.”

            Dearest RW,

            Yes, one day very soon, both you and I will be escorted by the Angel of Death into each our own personal Judgment Day. I will stand naked before my creator to give account for my actions in this life.

            You also will stand naked before your creator.
            Your current master is NOT going to help you in that day!
            No need to apologize for being blunt, for both of us WILL be judged.

            The very sad thing about all this is that your judge on that day, is calling to you today, to extend mercy to you which you are refusing. Have you any idea what it means to say; “No” to eternal life?

            Again this third time I say, peace to you Robert.

            • 45squared, Just a bit of correction dear, you are believing and following Yeshuah(Jesus) the True Savior, you are defending Him for you love Him, so as soon as you leave this world the Angel of YAHWEH will put a pure white garment upon you so that you do not have to stand naked before the Great Judge and Savior who has saved you. That goes for all of us who follow Yeshua(Jesus). The Word of YAHWEH. But the nakedness and shame of others will be exposed before Him and then thrown into the lake of fire. How sad for the souls that will be lost.

              Be Blessed.

            • 45squared, I forgot to mention some important scriptures earlier but check these out and be joyful:

              CLOTHING OF SALAVATION & RIGHTEOUSNESS
              Isaiah 61; 10
              10. I will greatly rejoice in Yahweh, my soul shall be joyful in my Elohim; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
              Job 29; 14
              14. I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
              Ecclesiastes 9; 8
              8. Let your garments be always white; and let your head lack no ointment.
              Revelation 3; 18
              18. I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; (this is wearing the name of Yahoshua, which make us a part of the royal family) and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; ( this is the keeping of the torah which is righteousness, we are naked without it) and anoint your eyes with eyesalve, that you may see. (this is having his indwelling Spirit which helps us to see) Here in this verse you see repentence which means we stop sinning and turn back to his law, sin is the transgression of the law, 1 John 3; 4. Baptism in the name of Yahoshua and being filled with his Spirit.
              Revelation 19; 8
              8. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

              These articles are only getting more and more interesting.. Praise YAH.

              • These are writings of another time, other Masters like Enoch and Moses, and other disciples. The Son of Man or Son of God is the HOLY SPIIRIT, and comes all the time to earth, so don’t project Jesus back where he was not. His ministry was TIME LIMITED. ALL Masters are time limited. That’s why more are BORN.

                • Robert, Thanks for your advice but the above scriptures were not meant for you but meant for 45quared. So you can go on believing what you believe, it’s your choice OK?

            • Yes white opaqe clothing Jes, thank you. That clothing covers what angels and other heavenly participants see.

              I was addressing the 100% all-knowing Eternal One, from whose face the earth and heavens flee away, but there is NO place for them to hide! Pause and think about that for a moment. Which is thicker, a garment or a planet?

              The piercing gaze this Judge is like standing outside and looking up at the sun in all its full brilliance, which radiates right through my clothing, knowing ALL the deeds, intentions, and thoughts which have every passed through our minds during our entire lifetime. In this sense, even we Christians too ARE completely naked on Judgment Day. (not generally naked, but naked before this Judge)

              Fortunately for us there is a little diary, a bridal registry, the Lamb’s Book of Life which determines our eternal destiny.

      • Hi 45squared,

        I agree 101%

        Shalom

    • Robert, how you got into this messy religion I will never know but you are walking in a road that is wide open that leads to destruction. All your comments do not make sense at all it’s like gumbo that kind of food we do not eat. So you can’t force it on us. Go right to the top of this page and see if any of the commenters have agreed with you and ask yourself why? We don’t mean to insult you but you can see that none of us want to read your blasphemous remarks against the Son of GOD, Yeshua(Jesus) whom we believe in and who is returning soon. Get a grip on the Bible.

      • Show one remark Jesus said that indicated he was returning “soon” IN OUR TIME. He said “some STANDING HERE”. That was a long time ago, Jes.

        I got into Sant Mat as a result of heartfelt prayer to God, and was answered on the same beach where I made it.

        I’m not interested in results. I enjoy speaking the truth, boldly. Ignore it if you want. BUT, I have something to offer beyond your wildest imagination. I mean it.

  19. I’ve been told to go away twice now in one day. Is this what Jesus taught?

  20. The Sanskrit word YOGA has the literal meaning of “YOKE”, from a root YUJ meaning to join, to unite, or to attach. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga

    YOGA? NO, NOT AT ALL BUT SOMETHING FAR BETTER AND GREATER. READ ON….

    Please note: The name God that is used here is YAHWEH and not any other god.

    Key Verse:
    “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us” (Ephesians 3:20).

    Key Passage – Ephesians 3:20-4:3

    The Power of Meditation

    When you hear the word “meditation,” what springs to mind? Is it something
    related to the New Age movement, maybe an exercise such as yoga, or perhaps sitting in silence?

    No matter what connotations you have of this word, to meditate is to obey the Lord. There are several occurrences that clearly reveal God’s intention for us to meditate on Scripture.

    One such example is Psalm 27:4, where David proclaims, “One thing I have asked from the Lord, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the Lord and to meditate in His temple” (emphasis added).

    God identified David as a man after His own heart. And how did David obtain God’s heart? By meditating, or deeply reflecting, on the Word of God.

    One of the benefits of meditation is that it keeps us in the mindset that this
    life is not about us, but about God. For instance, in the key verse we read,
    “Now to Him . . .” As we reflect on that phrase, we will automatically be
    focusing on God as the source of life.

    Meditation on Scripture also helps us abide in Christ, or rest and rely on Him alone. The more we reflect on the meaning of a particular phrase, verse, or passage, the greater understanding God gives us of His purposes in daily life.

    As we grow in our understanding, we will grow in our ability to apply the Word of God to all situations.

    Psalm 1:1-3 confirms that a joyful person is one who meditates on Scripture, and therefore is continually gaining spiritual maturity. “How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in its season and its leaf does not whither; and in whatever he does, he prospers.”

    To reap the value of meditating on Scripture, here are a few practical
    guidelines:
    1. Do not be overzealous in choosing a passage. Instead, begin meditating on a short phrase or simply one verse. Beginning small will ensure a long-term commitment with room to grow.

    2. Ask God to guide you to a verse or phrase that will be helpful to you in
    the plans He has for this season of your life.

    3. Divide up the verse or passage into small chunks, which will help you
    memorize it and see each individual word’s relevance to the entire portion of Scripture.

    4. Persevere. Don’t let small setbacks discourage you. Continually ask God to reveal Himself to you as you reflect on His Word.

    5. Write down what God shows you about the Bible. Your journal can serve as a roadmap to future revelation.

    Learning to love God’s Word is a discipline that takes time and practice. As
    you commit yourself to the practical application of meditation, know that God is with you and will reward every effort you make to hide His Word in your heart.

    Questions for Reflection
    1. Read the key passage. How does verse 20 of chapter three relate to the first verse in chapter four?

    2. Reflect on the key verse. How does the word “think” change your view of
    obeying God during times when you just don’t understand His plans and ways?

    3. Spend time recording your reflections on this passage into a prayer journal.

    May they be blessed who follow this meditation.

    • That’s fine, but it isn’t Surat Shabd Yoga, the one Jesus taught in Jophn 3:8 and Matt. 6:22, and is asking his disciples to do in Matt. 26:40. I CITE, but don’t see anyone else supporting themselves. That would lead yo a productive exchange. So far others have only told me I’m wrong.

  21. Absolutely not, I will never agree with you that Jesus christ taught Yoga!

    That is a lie straight from hell! I am not mixing any words with you. Your soul is at stake and satan has a hold on you and you need to rebuke the thing you are doing so that God can set you free.

    You are a lost soul, and if you do not find the true God, you will never enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    I wrote it for you as simple as possible. Read how to enter in, Jesus Christ the Lord and savior did not play games or mince his words. Get a bible and read it. Stop thinking that you are so intelligent. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; He makes things as basic as possible. He think not to make it that the simplest can not understand.

    In the philosphy you are following, Hindu. They believe in so many Gods you can basically do what you want but when you die you are according to the word be sent to Hell. I really don’t have anything in common with you or any you worship with or follow after.

    I set my heart on following Jesus Christ. He made it clear that those who would go whoring after satan will receive their part in the lake of fire together. Is this so those who are birds together can burn up together I do not know. Why would you spoil your soul with these strange teachings knowing better? I say perhaps someone injured your spirit? Ask God for forgiveness of you and the one who injured you that he may make you well. You re spiritually sick, and if it goes unto death you have no hope. It is not much different than those who follow after the greek gods.

    Give me a break grow up God is coming and you know better and yet you do as you are doing.

    I have a yound man I have been doing bible couseling with for over a year. he is just getting well enough to cope with the demons that come into a home from this type of trancing and meditating on false dieties and garbage. Your mind is like a computer, garbage in garbage out. His father did as you are doing and one of the spirit deities convinced him to kill himself.

    You need to wakeup. The thing you are playing with is demonic forces, none other. You will need help and support from loving christians to split from this thing but it can be done. The sooner the better. God is coming he is not delayed.

    I pray that God forgive you for saying that Jesus Christ taught yoga. Don’t blame him for what you are doing as you contrieved to buy into this absurd thing. You could have never been saved nor have known God, because if you had received the Holy Ghost you could not do what you are doing.
    I would not give up my relationship with the Lord for anything.

    Get help, you are in desparate need and people here should not be feeding on what you are doing or on what you are presenting. Demons have adgendas and those who are slave to them follow after them. God said he knows where the seat of satan is, can you find your way back to the mercy seat where the blood is?

    If so get going and repent for having offended God. We have all fallen short but this is a weightier thing. Please get a family memeber who is true believer in Christ and who knows him and what he will do for his children and you will break free that is the first step to recovery. You will need couseling to fight against the demons but the Lord will help you if you turn away from this false religion. God is the only one who can offer us something, not man.

    • Pattiefarm,

      Thanks for your concern. I mean that. But you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. I know a Master. Nothing could change the mind of one who has spent time in the presence of a living Master. Jesus is DEAD. His Spirit may live on with the Father, but he is not available here anymore. Why do you think he said, “AS LONG AS I am in the world, I am the Light of the world”?
      I was saved in Jesus years ago, so why would you think I lost that? I never rejected him, he just didn’t fill me. Now I know why. It was meditation that was missing. I showed everyone here where it was taught by Jesus. Sorry you don’t see it.
      Anyone who does Surat Shabd Yoga could tell you where Jesus is speaking of it, and where it shows up in the OT. There are about three million of us in RSSB (RSSB.org) I think. It is even more evident in the gnostic gospels — the TRUE gospels, not the falsehoods in the corrupt canon.

      I’ll bet you don’t even know WHY the canon has only FOUR gospels. DO you? Look up Irenaeus, and Adverses Heresies sometime. You’ll get an eyeful. Athanasius? Constantine? Eusebius? I wouldn’t be too proud of the origins of your NT. It surely wasn’t the God of Jesus Christ. You have no idea how misled you are.

      It’s truly shocking how effectively the Negative Power (Satan to you) has duped people. I’m really dismayed. There is little hope of getting through, I’m afraid….

  22. Robert
    You don’t have to ‘get through’ to anyone. The truth does not only exist if people believe it and become more true the more people believe it. The bible and the gnostic texts are just a warning. Some will understand through the words others will have to see (later). I assure you that Christ knew that the bible would be distorted by preachers and scribes. Read it closer it does not go against the gnostic texts. His spirit acts through many (even the serpent was used as will the anti Christ be). The disciples did not really understand Jesus but he knew that but it doesn’t make any difference his work was still done through them. You don’t seem to understand he basic pretext that ‘the truth will be done’ no matter what anyone thinks. and if they think they know the truth? well he just laughs at them. ps got you book hope it’s good love D

  23. pps Cross your legs or suck a lollypop…. he will still just laugh a you/us.

  24. Robert

    the gnostic gospels are heretical gospels written

    300 years after the time of Christ.

    This is enough proof that NONE of the true apostles were alive to write any such documents.

    the documents are false, and you believe a lie.

    they are fairy tales.

    Just because they are named after the apostles, does not mean the apostles wrote them.

    The apostles did not live to be 300-400 years old, long enough to write the gnostic documents.

    the only true accounts or gospels are those written by the apostles that knew Jesus at the time he was here.

    Jesus is not dead. That is where you are wrong.

    He is alive and well.

    • Not true

      The earliest found condemnation of Gospel of Thomas was 130 CE

      • And the only reason it was “condemned” (by know-nothings) was because it contains an elevated James (logion 12) and gnostic tendencies (“split the rock, I am there”). It is paralleled in Hbrew Matthew, both very early.

    • ….and the biblical gospels were written within 50 CE. This makes the gnostic gospels 70 years older at most although they may be contemporary with the biblical text. I see no ‘proof’ of anything there,

  25. No one who knows better, including me and all scholars studying them, thinks the gnostic gospels were WRITTEN by apostles, Marianne. But neither do we think the canon was written by apostles. No scholar I’m aware of really believes any of them were. It is Gospel “ACCORDING TO”, not “Gospel by …” Absolutely NONE of the gnostic books are by apostles. That’s certain.

    But that doesn’t mean earlier is better. Paul is the “earliest” of all NT writings, and THE WORST by far! You need to read Robert Eisenman and Douglas Del Tondo, a Jew and a Christian, so you don’t need to take anything from this Easterner. The NT is NOT a handbook for salvation, but A POLEMIC. It is written by men who had AN AGENDA. They were rabid antiSemites, and wanted to consolidate control under one doctrine. You need to understand the fragmentary nature of the early church. All was not smooth with them. They were really quite plainly KILLING each other. Paul killed even AFTER his so-called “conversion”. There is no account of that in his letters, but in historians accounts with James’ injury and death. And Acts has THREE differing versions of the “conversion”, none including the required appearance of A FACE with his “vision”. Masters never appear in spirit anonymous like he claims –NO APPEARANCE, only voice. It DIDN’T happen. Paul is a BAD person. His doctrine was CONDEMNED by Jesus, and Del Tondo, A CHRISTIAN, details it thoroughly in “JESUS WORDS ONLY”, online in full at the website he has on it. You are a fool if you pass on it. Read my book, I provide details of Paul, too. You have a lot to learn.

  26. You know Robert, I shared a lot of good things with you but you are a hard nut to crack because you continue to wallow in your ugly beliefs. I’m already sick of it. You are the bad apple among the good apples. You are the wolf in sheep’s clothing. But we here are the sheep who know our Shepherd’s voice and to Him we run YESHUAH MESSIAH our Protector & Savior.
    So go preach to the birds or the fish! And may luck go with you instead of blessings.

  27. Jes,

    You are sorely lacking in your education, dude.

    http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/JWO/benjamite-wolf.html

    Here’s your site. It is by A CHRISTIAN. Learn who the “wolf” is. He devours the flock in the morning, and by night divides the spoils” (Genesis 49:17). It is of the Benjamin tribe, Paul’s tribe. It disappeared after the time of Christ, so the prophecy is fulfilled. Read the rest on the site…

    His gospel was AFTER-DEATH salvation by Jesus, in Romans 10: “Jesus IS Lord”. That’s a LIE. Jesus was one Master among many hundreds who have come. Jesus never taught what you think he is capable of. Never.

    Read the whole “Jesus Words Only”. I know this guy. He is brilliant.

    • Robert

      You have nothing to contribute to this page.

      You oppose everything we believe, and present yourself as a know it all.

      There is no room for compromise on the truth, and you are so confused and misinformed, that you have nothing in common with Christianity that you should even be here on this site.

      The Words of Jesus are true, as described in the 4 gospels…….the accusations you make are unfounded, no matter how many heretics your quote.

      • Marrianne,

        I have love for Jesus in common with you. He inspired my search in this lifetime. I look forward very much to seeing him within. He will never be seen in this world again. Only accompanied by ANOTHER MASTER, like Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, will he be seen by anyone. His second coming was in the first century for his GIVEN souls. Do you not see what is plainly stated in John 17:11 somehow? Jesus told whoever overheard his Prayer that his mission was OVER, his GIVEN were ALL IN THE WORLD as he left for Home, and he wanted the Father to care for them. Same reason he asked for the “cup to pass from him”. Christians all miss what shows the immediacy of his ministry, because, I guess, they so want to be part of his glorious life. But that’s OVER. HE SAID SO. (John 17:4). Is there something there that you know shows he is to CONTINUE it???? John 17:20 is referring to his own immediate circle of disciples, initiating THEIR OWN disciples — through their “Word,” or spirit — NOT preaching. ONLY initiation by A MASTER, IN THE FLESH, can save. “AS LONG AS (I am in the world….)” How much PLAINER can JESUS BE????

        What’s wrong with you all here? I’ll tell you: It’s P-A-U-L. Run like hell from him. He is the false prophet Jesus told them about– and you, if you call yourselves true followers of Christ!

        As Bart Ehrman says, when you say “the words of Jesus are true”: WHICH words? …. WHICH translation version? … WHICH manuscript? … WHICH recension? And again, the Word is NOT the Bible. It is the SPIRIT.

        I’m not highly “educated”. I simply study this a lot. I’m not impressed in the least by degrees. They mean little in spiritual understanding. It is WHO you know, not WHAT. A living Master has ALL the answers. The face value reading of scripture is hopelessly complicated by varied translation, to say nothing of the deeper problem of compositional motivation. Go find out what THEY say before judging them.

        • oh please do not quote Bart Ehrman. He is an educated, ignorant heretic.

          He proves education is nothing without common sense, and he has none.

          I was at UNC with him.

          Mindless devotion to gnostic gospels he admits were 300 years after Christ…..he is completely wrong and cannot use normal logic.

          Robert, you have not read your bible well. Jesus definitely stated many things you have no stated awareness of and one of them was that he is returning as Lord of Lords…..we do not need any Master but him….

          His work at the time was finished, but he is returning to complete his work and set up his Messianic kingdom.

          • He was ‘returning as Lord of Lords’ for HIS given disciples, and John 17:11 says you are not among them. Sorry you can’t read the Bible the way it should be read, Marianne. Truly, I am. It could lead you onward like it did me, but you got stuck.

            Bart Ehrman has done a big favor for us all showing the many ways the Bible is corrupted. “The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture” is a fabulous book, no matter one’s belief system.

    • Robert,
      ~~~ Since I don’t know you personally, I could say I may not have that level of worldly education that you have but I do have Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Intelligence and the Discernment between right and wrong, good and evil given to me by the Great God of Israel whose name is YAHWEH and nobody else.
      ~~~ To say that I am lacking education, you are sorely speaking for yourself. So save your “slang word dude” for those of your kind, I am not American and where I come from we do not use slang language but proper English. Also if you were smarter than me you would have known the meaning of “dude” and who to use it on. For a clue it is used on a certain gender. You may have obtained the highest degrees of education, you may have written books but the fact that you reject the true God, those degrees and books are thrash in the waste bin, in the eyes of the Holy Almighty YAHWEH.
      ~~~ Next, you call me a Christian, for your info I am not Christian and I do not follow any religions but I am a staunch follower of the TORAH and for your further info, religions are man-made including yours but TORAH is given by the True God of Israel in order to have a – NOT RELIGION but a RELATIONSHIP with him.
      ~~~ Lastly you are wasting your time here and the precious time of others. Bear this in mind there are only two destinations after life – Heaven or Hell, so ponder seriously which one will it be for you?

      • I have several graduate degrees, so no one can call me uneducated.

        And I am not wrong.

        And I am with you, Jes.

        • Thanks Marianne,

          You know, no matter who we are, no one should ever be attacked on education. Many in this world are not educated but their skills often cannot be matched … I have met people like that in my life and its awe inspiring what they can do. I thank YAH and I bless my parents who looked after me and gave me good education and upbringing knowing the True Almighty YAHWEH. Those are my treasures in life and after life.
          Blessings.

      • Jes,

        No Jew I ever met condemned others to hell. That’s a new one. And I was answering someone who calls himself “Jes”, which is a man’s name in my book.

        • Hell is a reality.

          Jesus spoke about it.

          To warn others about it is an act of mercy, not condemnation.

        • Any Jew or Christian devoted to the Word of God will tell you directly that you will go to hell for blaspheming unless you repent. Majority of Jews today are secular and most American Jews are Buddhists, Reform, Ultra-Othodox, Atheists, & so on. These will not tell you about going to hell because they themselves are lost. However, here two Israelite Apostles saying sinners will go to hell even if one of the Commandments are broken and that includes blasphemers like you.

          (John 3:4) tells us that “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.” So we see a clear definition of sin as being “lawlessness.” What Law is one breaking when committing sin? The Answer is the Ten Commandments. If a person breaks one of the Ten Commandments he/she is committing sin, and the Scripture tells us if a person is guilty of breaking one of the Commandments they are guilty of breaking them all. (James 2:10).

          Revelation 21:8- “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone…”

          There are many scriptures like these so go read it for yourself and repent.

      • Jes,

        Oh I think differently, as you might suspect. You are here presenting yourself as someone who KNOWS about the teachings of Christ. You are utterly and completely mistaken on that.

        The “waste of time” here is all the garbage being pawned off on others as teachings of Christ. They are the teachings of men –satanic men. Like Paul. The Master who chose me was not a mere man. He was a God-man. You will never see another as great in your or your children’s lifetimes. And Jesus told his followers that seeing a Master is a requirement (John 6:40). Nobody here wants to admit simple and obvious FACTS like that one, apparently.

        • Robert

          You are introducing strife here, not debate. To insult the words of Jesus as garbage and satanic is blasphemy.

          And to elevate yourself as more knowledgeable than others because you have met someone claiming to be a “god-man” is really over the top and unfounded. If you are specially chosen, it is for strife and confusion, and it was not from God.

          Since you cannot contribute anything positive, you will have to desist from contributing here.

        • This is for Robert and ALL who blaspheme the Holy Name of YAHWEH. The Creator (God of Israel) Himself said:
          – And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. Leviticus 24:16
          – Exodus 12:49 “The same Torah shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you.” Leviticus 24:22 “’There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am YHWH Eloheinu.
          ~~~ On the day of SHAVUOT(Pentecost) the BRIDGROOM met with HIS BRIDE and made a KETUBAH (Covenant) with them. They were the promises that were made between YAHWEH and the ISRAELITES, who agreed to worship NO OTHER gods – but only YAHWEH.
          ~~~ So who abolished the Commandments of death and when? (Clue given below*), Did they have the right to do so when YAHWEH himself said: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev. 22:18-19.
          ~~~ The Bible mandates capital punishment for a series of crimes, among them Kidnapping, Murder, Idolatry, Desecration of the Sabbath, Blasphemy, Adultery, Incest, and various other Sexual Offenses. Capital punishment was the standard punishment in the civilizations of the Ancient Near East, and the biblical code clearly believed in its value as a deterrent: “And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt you put away the evil from your midst; and all Israel shall hear, and fear” (Deut.21:21). The death penalty was believed also to have a purging effect upon society at large. Thus the institutions charged with dispensing justice were explicitly forbidden to show mercy to those convicted of certain heinous crimes such as murder, kidnapping, and idolatry, and Deuteronomy demands the death penalty on ten separate occasions with the formulation “and you shall root out the evil from your midst.”
          – In 1794 the U.S. state of Pennsylvania became the first jurisdiction to restrict the death penalty to first-degree murder. Long story short, during the last third of the 20th century, the number of abolitionist countries increased more than threefold.
          – While many societies practice capital punishment, most developed countries had abolished death sentencing by 2003. *THE EUROPEAN UNION “MANDATES, AND THE INTERNATIONAL COVENANTS FAVOR” abolition of this practice.
          – Read how a young Saudi is facing death for a simple tweet re. Mohd. I pity this guy he probably had a lot of questions about Mo that no one dared answer for him. Now he has to die for that.
          http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/saudi-faces-calls-for-his-death-after-criticizing-muhammad.html
          The point I’m bring this up is because; How easily we believers allow people to blaspheme our Holy Creator G-d and His Son Yeshuah(Jesus) Who Himself wrote all the Laws and Commandments. ((Aramaic Bible – Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, “Yeshua is damned”, neither can a man say, “Yeshua is THE LORD YEHOVAH”, except by The Spirit of Holiness. 1-Corinthians 12:3))
          The Bottom line: Robert Wahler has an evil spirit within him who speaks thru his tongue. Robert must seek Yeshuah and repent or suffer severe consequences for his blasphemy.
          This is my last comment to Robert.

  28. Robert

    I understand where you are coming from but… Jesus knew that the gospels would be written with bias. Read them again more carefully they do not oppose your view. But I warn you if you are bias you will not get it He really is a genius. It is the same old argument ‘I think I have found a misinterpretation so dismiss it all’

  29. The trick is not in His words is it in peoples interpretations.

    • that part I agree with.

      So that is why the holy spirit needs to be present in one’s life, to be led to the proper interpretation.

      There are too many confused interpretations that lack the input from the holy spirit.

      that is why quoting “educated” people who lack the holy spirit is useless and foolish. it will lead you down the wrong path.

      the goal is to find the truth and hold on to it.

      if one lacks the gift and presence of the holy spirit, then one should seek that first, before trying to interpret anything.

  30. Now you sound like Robert. See the cyclical problem?

  31. You call it ‘The Holy Spirit’
    Robert calls it ‘Gnosis’

    What are you really defending here?

    • david

      gnosis is man’s concept of knowledge. it is carnal knowledge. it is of the world, and based on man’s thinking.. plenty of room for error

      the holy spirit is a divine presence, and he IS truth . there is no error with him. he is the spirit of truth and prophecy… he is the one who can tell you 3000 years in advance what can happen next year.

  32. Then if you have the holy spirit why can’t you say when the tribulation will be? or can no ‘man’ know the hour? so no ‘man’ has the holy spirit?

    • the holy spirit inspires us to understand the truth, and helps us reach it.

      God is still sovereign over details. He reveals what he wishes.

      he has given us plenty of clues, but has not given us an exact date.

      Jesus said he did not know himself, but only the Father in heaven knew the exact day and hour.

  33. Marianne,

    You really think you can stop me? I told the truth on your stupid blog, and you block me. If there is strife there it is because it is in your minds, not because I brought it there. No Master claims to be a God man. I said my Master was, not him. You don’t even read posts properly — you think you are qualified to be a judge of others? You nee to search your soul for guidance and get right before that God you think is above mine. Time is short for everyone of us here. I really hate what Christianity has done to beautiful souls like yours once was…

  34. OK Robert if you understand then can you tell me what the ‘tree of knowledge’ and ‘tree of life’ actually are. Either you will have worked it out or your master will have told you. Any idea?

  35. Genuine question.

    • submitted by Robert

      Not been told by Master, but Dr. Randolphe Stone says the tree of knowledge is the generative impulse, and the tree of life is the inverted “tree” of pranic (subtle) energy radiating downward in the human body from the Kether Chakra at the top of the head to the second lumbar vertebra. There is a ton more to all this and I suggest you look into Kabbalism. I don’t understand this all that well, I must confess. All I know is that the “Tisra Til” is the third or single eye (Matt. 6:22), and that is what we need to concern ourselves with if we want to connect to the Word resounding there, and go up inside in spirit. I CAN tell you where to find four online books, in full, written by Masters, or by one who knew one well (Dr. Julian Johnson, an American MD):

      These are terrific books, all of them, and a wealth of information. It will take a while to absorb it all, but it would be well worth the effort. Try to read them all.

      Marianne for Robert

  36. Robert

    I say to you and the spirit in you, “The Lord God Almighty” rebuke you!!

    Yeah you heard me right. I am not afraid of you and your misfractured mind.
    How dare you speak of Jesus christ the way you have and then about the Apostle Paul. He was so close to the Lord that the clothes cut from aprons he wore were worthy to be prayer cloths. When the clothes were laid upon victims they were instantly healed.

    Maybe God needs to strike you the way he struck Paul on that road and made him blind, but then you are already blind and demonically possessed. Unless you intentially are just like your father a liar.

    You get your mouth off of MARIANNE, I plead the blood of Jesus and his protection around her and everyone on this site including you. So that you ill remember who God is and the Holy Ghost and Jesus Cchrist at this very minute. if you refuse healing. I am asking him to put rocks in your bed at night until you return to a normal. You are being oppressed and no not.

    I say to that foul vulgar spirit inside of you to come out now, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. When you are healed thank Jesus Christ for what he did and don’t mess with anymore lying filth calling itself above Jesus Christ.
    Go and be a true witness for the Lord, as we are all called.

  37. pattiefarm I am sure Marianne is fine.

    Marianne, thankyou for refs

    Robert, thankyou for response. If we all keep going we will all get there, well most anyway but some will have to see first.

    Robert, The tree of life is depicted by two overlapping squares for a reason.

  38. Marianne began a post discussing the powerful presence of God and Christ among men via a burning bush. Then Robert spends 33 comments against the power and presence of God and Christ among us. There were 33 rebuttle comments which, too, only gave place to Robert’s doctrines of devils. Thus, 66/93 comments discussed Robert’s agenda rather than Marianne’s.

    What a waste.

  39. “If God was in the bush, why did the angel have to be there?”

    “Israel’s “narrow view” of the Iranian nuclear threat is frustrating the Obama administration, White House sources have claimed. Iran’s Nuclear Program Could Provoke War with Israel”

    If you don’t want to waste time then don’t have discussions about what is in a bush.

    • david

      What is in the bush is supremely more important than what is in Iran.

      What is in the busy determines the fate of both Israel AND Iran.

      Iran has been threatening to wipe Israel off the map since the days of the Persian empire.

      Its threat is not new, and its destiny, or doom, has already been determined and was predicted thousands of years ago.

      The best strategy is to be on God”s side, not Iran’s.

  40. They are both going to wipe each other off of the map….. then the rest of us will be free of dogma. The meek will inherit the earth.

    • hi david

      actually……

      Iran will TRY to wipe Israel off the map.

      But then God will wipe Iran off the map.

      Israel will experience damage, but will be there when the dust settles.

      Israel belongs to God, not man, and God gets angry when people try to destroy his property.

      • As long as it IS God that does this and NOT Israeli missiles and nuclear devices. I suspect the latter.

        • we have to face the reality of the situation.

          Iran has promised, and is actively working to blow up Israel.

          In a nuclear war, once hit, Israel will be incapable of firing back. It will be gone – off the map- as Iran promised.

          Israel is only 7,900 sq miles, or 20,00 sq kilometers. One nuclear missile will eliminate the entire country.

          Unless Iran stops its mission to blow up Israel, and nuclear supplies to Gaza to blow up Israel from that vantage point, which is also crazy, since Gaza will be destroyed also, Israel will most likely have to fire first.

          so even if Israel fires first, it is Iran that is the cause.

          this was all predicted in Zechariah.

          the 4 horses of the apocalypse will come from the direction of Iran.

          https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/4-horses-4-horns-4-beasts-of-zechariah-and-revelation/


          its target will be Israel.

          so Israel can either sit there and let itself be wiped off the map, or it will initiate a pre-emptive strike against Iran.

          or…..

          God will stop Iran himself.

          either way.

          war is coming, and it will be devastating.

          it will not be a time to point fingers, but to repent, because our days are numbered now.

          • But then God will wipe Iran off the map.
            ‘so even if Israel fires first, it is Iran that is the cause.’

            So you are sanctioning an Israeli preemptive strike on Iran ? Possibly nuclear (as Israel has nuclear but Iran as yet does not) in the name of God. Am I understanding you correctly?

            • david

              I am saying in a conflict between Iran and Israel, there will only be

              ONE nuclear warhead fired.

              There will only be time for for shot.

              After that time, there is no opportunity or anyone left, to fire back.

              The one who fires wins.

              The one who just sits there loses.

              Who do you want to fire the first and ONLY shot?

              • G-d said in the latter days Israel will be reborn, and no weapon made will be able to destroy them. This is to show G-d keeps his word, even if man could not.

                Syria appears to be the next on the chopping block. Asad is cutting the heads off of women and children in Hom. As Syria is ruled by a minority, I suspect they will fight to the death. It could bring the prophcey of Damasus where it is fully destroyed by a WMD. syria has a lot of Chem/Bio weapons.

                Any General worth his salt will not attack iran with Hamas, Hizoallah, and Syria in the rear able to attack.

              • Well only Israel has nuclear weapons in that region so I suppose one preemtive strike with a nuclear warhead from Israel will end it all. As you say ‘the one who fires wins’.

                Any General worth his salt will not attack Iran …. but Israel will have to if Marianne is correct in that ‘the one who fires wins’.

                Well I hope the children of Iran understand and have read the bible otherwise they will not understand this merciful God.

                • I think every good Christian should advocate a pre emptive nuclear strike on all aran nations NOW. That is right isn’t it Marianne or are you just another confused deluded psychopath?

                • No one really wants this, except Iran.

                  Pray for the people there.

                  Their leader is crazy.

                • I do not “want” any nuclear strike.

                  What I would like is for Iran to stop making threats, and to learn the way of peace with Israel.

                  If it will leave Israel alone, Israel will leave it alone

  41. David

    No the young man name Robert is not alright and he is fortunate that the
    Lord did not strike him. But then he knows these are the days and it says
    that man shall be boastful, blaspheming against his own parents and so on.

    More than likely he has God fearing serving parents they stand in the gap with the Lord in constant prayer about their son.

    You seem very nieve about the word of God with this statement. I pray that God would strike him with a rod or break his leg than to send him to hell. You seem to forget what God did to the Jews because of ashtoreth, lil, chemosh, ammon and so on.

    He even took his kingdom out of their hands, he loved David but his son after being taken over by demons after the many wifes and fullilling there desires to worship demons he punished.

    Solomon built the temple to God but when he went a whoring and took the others with him, he had enough. God made them live in another land in the earth, instead of in the promise. Do you really think you know a demy who is great ehough to come against God? Pharoah if he wasn’t in hell, could tell you a story of his strength. Do you remember how he killed the first born child in every family because they would not let his people go, even after he turned their waters to blood. All to bring his children out.

    Revelations teaches me as a responsiblity to testify to who God is and his goodness.

    I pray that God forgives Robert and finds away back for him. People who practice yoga give their bodies over to demons. People who serve those demies are of their father, satan. It is not complicated. He spoke life into exsistence, he breathed life into man and he put you in your Mothers womb. The things that happened are a mazing but we serve the living God able to do all things.

    Take a look at Elijah and what happened. Jez on her head and eaten by the dogs, kind of fitting since she worshipped at the feet of the dogs and her husband forgiven as he turned from the practice of witchcraft and wickedness. Do you remember how afraid Elijah was and God had to straighten him out. The number that died at the hands of the demies was great. They were people filled with much pride to think they could kill whoever they wanted and steal what ever they wanted and speak boastful against the only true God. He is not just God he is the “GREAT I AM”. Don’t play with God he is fire.

    You can be more concerned with the prophesy for the children of Joseph.
    they are the twins Ephraim and Manasseh. He has blessed them and made the linage of the one in England to set upon the thrown as he promised til they come back home. The other is in the USA.

    I could not figure out why the Lord woke me up in the second watch to get up and go pray for Israel, this I understood, then he added England and I did not understand and today I found the answer about the thrown of England. Queen Elizabeth is a decendant of the Jewish peoples, through Ephraim. He added the USA last and this occured before the things of the middle east happened which Marianne can testifiy to and it is written in different places on the this website. The linage and the children of Mannasseh are in the USA and a few from Ephraim also.

    God is everywhere and his people are all mixed through out the lands of the earth as he said to Abraham they are as the sand of the sea and the dust of the earth.

    God is a wall of fire. That is why you see the fire! His name is so Holy that we are not allowed to say it. The anels worship him, ie saying he is Holy, Holy art thou and so worthy to be served. The angels are with God always, who do you think they take orders from. If we the lowly man take orders from God, how much more his angels.

    Zachariah 2:5-13
    For I, saitrh the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her. Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD. Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon, For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye. For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee. And the LORD shall inherit JUdah his protion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again. Be silent, O all flesh, before the LORD: for he is raised up out of his holy habitation.

    The tribe of Dan that was cut off became and put herself with the Babylonains. Worshipping and whoring after demonics, call them princes whatever. God called it that “they went whoring.” He tells them here to deliver themselves out of her hands. We are talking about a group that was a branch, a tribe. But they are not among the 144,000. He tore the branch off. They for all generations the way I read it are out of the picture and can not inherit. Why? not just worshipping, but practicing witchcraft which is the trade and the payoff of the enemy to his people for worshipping. The practicing of all hindu practices are forbidden.

    If you want what God gave to Dan keep it up. If you feel that way and you hate your life so much why do you bother to live. I am certain that your parents are very pleased with the outcome of your nonsense also.

    to know the outcome of the Jews and the graphed-in wild branches read above, it could not be clearer. You either bow your knees in joy and surrender to the one who loves you and gave a perfect sacrifce (Jesus Christ) for our ignorant prideful ways, or read the Bible so you know what he has for you and all other rebelious children of sin.

    Wake yourself before it is to late, your soul could be required before the night ends.

  42. pattiefarm

    God is a wall of fire. Absolutely correct. He cares nought about the flesh as should we. He cares nought about our understanding as should we. Paradise is the other side of the ‘wall of fire’. So I don’t really care what anyones arguments or words of offence or compliment are, usually the latter are the most deceitful but the most pleasant to hear. I know about the restrainer and the flood and the trees of ‘knowledge’ and ‘life’ but the dae of the end escapes me. If anyone knows anything they should know that or be able to work it out. As yet I have heard nothing, just opinions. The reason Christ says that ‘no man will know the hour’ is because all men will know nothing apart from vanity, this alone will bring war.

  43. David

    You are right about the hour or the day but the servants of God are told to watch the times and season. We are also told about the Figtree.

    So I am not misquoting the word of God. The word was God and God is the word. He is the living word, his word is sharper than any two edge sword. There is nothing wrong with the word, it is having faith, Trusting him, and knowing if you walk up rightly beofore him he will give you the desires of your heart.

    My testimony is to him, his blood covers me, his love overflows me and his word I write upon my mind and heart. I pray that it will consume me and that when I enter in that he will beable to say well done my good and faithful servant.

    Your blood is on your hands, God does not force himself on any.

    The thing my Dad taught me is that those who don’t believe in God or Jesus Christ find him when they are in a place that their life is getting ready to disappear from their eyes. I say this to you, as if it should happen to you that the rememberance will come to you and hopefully not be to late.

    It is sad as you are missing out on the goodness of him.

    You need not respond further.

    • pattiefarm

      You don’t understand, I cannot get rid of what you seek. Whos blood will be on your hands. The meek will inherit the Earth not the righteous. Your god believes an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but Christ believed in turn the other cheek. Different gods. Your god will destroy his enemies and then destroy himself but then will you realise your error?

      • So you advocate that ONLY Israel turns the other cheek, and allows Iran to blow it off the map, killing 6 million Jews, and all the Palestinians as well?

        Why don’t you advocate that Iran turn the other cheek?

        It seems like you advocate the destruction of Israel.

        So, are you a muslim?

        This is their primary end time goal to destroy Israel and take over the world for allah.

        I can see whose side you are on.

        So, tell me, since are advocating God’s will, what does the God of the Bible say about those nations who come against Israel ?

      • No, not another god…but a growth and development of the humans who worship the One.

        Remember that the “eye for an eye” was also revolutionary for its time…a time when revenge could be ten-fold.

        Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the weakness of people. God declared, “I, your God, hate divorce”….extending to marriage, friendships, parent and child. God always desires reconciliation and forgiveness.

        But God MAKES ALLOWANCES FOR HUMAN IGNORANCE AND WEAKNESSES. Above all else, God desires us to trust and love Him. There are many, many things God allows us today that are wrong or third rate…because we have to live with ourselves in our times.

  44. reminder to all

    this page is to uplift the Lord and be thoughtful about his pre-incarnate experiences that are recorded in the bible.

    It is not to wage war against Israel, or even Iran.

    Prophecy will be fulfilled, and it is happening NOW.

    All the arguments will not change what Heaven is allowing to go forward.

    let us turn back to holy thoughts about the Lord, and maybe even prepare to die.

    it is time to repent, not argue.

    • Well said Marianne,

      I’m with you on this. There are many reasons why these things are happening today and the worst that will happen soon according to prophecies of the Holy Word of God. It’s high time we became strong Soldiers for Yeshua.

      Blessings

  45. True Christians turn the other cheek. Israel and you can do what you wish. In the end you will be ashamed.

  46. With respect to the Burning Bush , God has a Law of Witnesses, Deut. 19:15 that makes the Trinity the Way for God to appear as a finite object . So the Mystery of the Trinity is implied . God and Two Angels could appear , God, with a Son and the Holy Spirit could appear, God with an object such as a Burning Bush, plus a guardian angel, would be a triune convergence . God does not just appear, without witnesses. God could appear to Moses and Aaron, that is a Triune Unity of Three. The first suggestion that there must be three persons , is the opening of Torah Genesis where a Narrator already is speaking about God the Creator, and speaking of seeing God as the Spirit moving over the waters,. So three persons appear, the Speaker who Narrates, God speaks as Himself and God is seen as the Spirit moving over the waters. The pattern then is the Burning Bush, God and an Angel is three , with two being witnesses. to fulfill the Law of Deuteronomy 19:15 that for God to appear, there has to be two or three witnesses to testify that it was God and God did appear.

  47. David

    I feel you have been told that the God of the old testament is different then the God of the new testament. This is not true, he is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    You are right the children of God don’t go around fighting. We are defended by the creator, the same one who was involved in the old testament.

    We should not start wars or trouble for any man. i am against creating violence or funding hatred. But the Bible also says that God is the same
    yesterday, today and forever. He did not change.

    If you agree that this is so then you must agree that God is going to help the people who are his. We will have tribulations and you may hate the Americans many do. They are the ones who always gave from thier
    own pockets and from their tax base to feed and clothe the hungry thru-out the world. We as a people living here from the settling roots of this nation are God fearing people. A people who came and settled here to have religious freedom and to have a land from hatred, violence and oppression.

    I don’t know about you, my Jesus christ said turn the other cheek and he said he came that I might have life and have it more abundantly and to set the captives and the oppress free.

    We as a people are not given the ability to control our leaders with totality. Many are disobedient, many in office don’t even believe today. Many in the USA and thru out the world don’t evn attend church. If you don’t know the world your most likely being one of those people would not know how to pray. So if it is the God fearing or the non believing who put these people put them in office, I can not say.

    We have many who are not of the origianl settling roots, so we now have many who are also of pagan beliefs, ie LDS, hinduism, buddism, musslim and many other non god based religions. These who do not believe are a group of lost and nieve people. God does not wish that any should perish and not know him.

    I liken it to the story of the little snake. My big sister told this to me when I was young and wanted to do something with unbelieving people who had not done all things right, I guess. Those are the ones who think that the snake is innocent and will not kill you because it said so to your face. This snake ask for a ride across the river, as he is frozen it is winter time and he says he will not bite if he just give him a ride across and then some warmth by the fire. The moral is that the snake is alwys a snake, and the leopard does not change her spots. Being loving does not mean that God expects us to be nieve and ignorant.

    We are admonished to pray for them that have charge and leadship over us, that they will do the right things concerning these and all days.

    I would like to recall you that God said he will bring all these peoples with hooks in the jaw to the place of appointment. So when you talk about it being me it is not. When you speak of it being the little nation of Israel it is not. It may just be the appointed time and God has made his arrows to go where they will. I am not a person of war or, nor do I take joy in any form of death.

    I pray for our leaders, I pray that I not have anger or hatred in my heart even with those who do evil to me or that I watch do evil to others.

    I pray for those who do not love my God, who do not believe in Jesus Christ and for those who knew him and left him. I hope that in encoutering the backsliden beliver or the believer turned convent to disbelieve that I do as the word says and tell them that they are wrong as the word says. This is the chance to lead them back, they need to wake up feet are dangling over the pits of hell, we non know when our lifes will be required. We do not know any more because of the oppressors of the middle east what will become of our nation, and we are not certain of mindset of those in office who do not believe in God but a so called different way to heaven which does not exsist. A nation who wishes to be blessed should have God fearing, God trusting people at the helm then the nation is lead by God not the lost who are blind and of the crocked road. There is but one path it is stright and narrow and it leads to the gate that is also straight and narrow. So we can not just say that Jesus is love and discount the things of the old ways as we are not to for get them. The word is line upon line and precept upon precept, here alitle and there alittle.

    We live in a messed up world right now. The people are all out of the root structures of their ancestors believes. You would think in one way that this would stop wars because everyone is displaced now, not just the heirs of Abraham. The good news is the master has a plan and let it not be my will or any others but his. Let it be that his kingdom may come and not be delayed as our world is violent and filled with much sadness.

    You speak against the people in the nation of Israel. Last year a family of three sons and a daughter had a break in from their neighbors who hate them. The Mother had just given birth and the baby was in bed with her and her husband and their other small son were all murdered in their home. the daughter was out baby sitting and her other brother fell had fallen to sleep in the living room and did not see him. The litlle girl came home from baby sitting to find them. You think these people are evil? You think that their nation is blood thirsty as they lie sleeping and are daily murdered from the incoming bombs that they should be punished for looking for away to survive. No believe God gives a man a right to defend his family and innocent children and himself in Exodus.

    The staves of beauty and bands were broken by Zachariah as told by the Lord. But he did not take away the old paths we are to walk them and to follow after his ways which are unsearchable by man to know all.

    We are not to think evil of God, when we do it is the enemy who hates our Lord. He has been condemned already to hell do not follow after the paths of those who sacrife to the false ones, burn incense him and whore nd follow after him. Gods ways are perfect. if you think Jesus is Good you are right, no one has seen him but the father and no one the son but the father and it says the father and the son are one. They are not divided.

    So based on the word, I do I think that the nation of Israel has the right to defend themselves. I pray that the leaders of Israel are fasing and praying and looking to God for all the right answers. I am certain that God loves the nation of Israel, it was his choosen people, the apple of his eye. The bible says adventually a peace agreement will come to the two men who set at the table both knowing that they do not agree with the agreement. So will a battle have taken place before this treaty. I
    think so from reading the word and after the battle the signing and then the tribulation, the bride is gone up to be with the Lord, then the wrath on all who remain, then the coming of Joels army and the then the 1000 years. The trick is getting there a live as Gods’ children. We must have open ears, and an open heart and we must Turst fully in him.

    Did you know in the six day war, all of the men were there and God sent legions of Angels and most of them who were fighting against them put down their weapons. Why? because the angels were holding the hands down. The enemycouldn’t do anything, much less shoot them. The Israelite people are not an evil or wicked people. God has preserved thm from that and he will save them under Jesus Christ, they will open their eyes and the valley of the dried bones will live again fully.

    You don’t sound like you are an unbeliever, but instead that you are a young person who has not lived but a small portion of this life. it seems from this last post to me that your comments are being fear driven. Is this right? if so let me say this to you, he says let not your heart be troubled. Life in Heaven is assuredly for greater and better than what you have seen here. You will never have sadness again or sorrow. No one will hate anyone and there will never be another war. The Angels and man will be with their savior.

    I have a son getting married in May. He is a wonderful man, he may not see his wedding or if he does he may not ever see a child and it is possible that whatever his days are remaining be of sadness.
    For me his mother it is very sad, but the greatest hope and prayer I have for him and all my family is salvation that they may enter in for there in is your happiness.

    All I can say is the Lord I serve has plans according to the word and they are of love. I don’t want anyone to kill anyone and if Igave you that opinion then please for give me as I am not a blood thirsty person. I am thirsty for the lost to be saved, for the backsliden to be re=established and oppressed to be delivered and for the peace of God to be with all. His will be done, may you find him and his perfect peace.

    • pattiefarm: You should try to put forth your opinion with fewer words. It took eleven turns on my scroll wheel to get thru your post. I didn’t read it. Too long.

  48. “I believe that you should turn the other cheek” “I believe that Israel has the right to defend Herself” You have the wisdom of the flesh. Do you remember Jesus replacing the Roman’ soldier’s ear in the garden? Like I said above I cannot get rid of what you seek.

    • david

      That situation was different with the soldier. Jesus had already indicated that he was to suffer and die, and interference with his divine plan was occurring.

      Jesus never said people could not defend themselves.

      It is also one thing to turn the other cheek, and another thing to allow murder by permitting it to happen with a passive response.

      We must love our enemies, but allowing them to do evil only hurts them, not helps them.

      We must do all we can to achieve peace, but if that fails, then the sword is the last resort.

      Israel is at that point. Facing total annihilation is at hand. Allowing a satanic plan to succeed is not the will of God either.

  49. “We must love our enemies, but allowing them to do evil only hurts them, not helps them”
    Well pre emtive nuclear strike it is then, that should ‘help’ them. Sigh.

    • it is either that, or watch Iran annihilate Israel, wiping it off the map forever.

      which is best for you?

      Iran goes first, and Israel is completely destroyed?

      This is the dilemma we have now, all because evil was allowed to grow to begin with.

    • David,

      Before professing one thing and in the process judging another, could you answer this question honestly within your heart?

      You are in a room with your children, (or if you don’t have children, lets substitute your Mother) and a crazed man breaks into the room with a knife and lunges at them.

      Can you honestly say that you would simply stand there and watch them be killed, and then stand there patiently to be next in line?

      If after thoughtful consideration, you come up with the answer of “No”, and you realize that you would in actuality, defend the lives of those you love as well as your own, you would now then have a better understanding of the current political circumstances.

      Be Blessed

      • Shalom alienated,
        I fully agree with you. I wish people would read their Bibles and look for the deeper understanding but sadly they don’t but argue.
        Yahweh gives us permission to fight in order to defend ourselves when the enemy invades our boundaries* and Yeshuah(Jesus) did not change anything. Therefore if we are compelled to fight a physical fight in order to protect our home and family, we first pray, ask Yahweh to go before us, and then we fight the enemy. But – unless one is living as a servant, hearing from the Master Yahweh and obeying Him on a daily basis, that person is not qualified to enter into a fight/battle. Those who are trusted to be backed by Yahweh will be able to speak with authority and get rid of the enemy. To fight the enemy physically with weapons or spiritually with the armor of Yahweh, requires the obedience to Yahweh.
        In Matthew 10:34 Yeshuah says, “Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I come not to send peace, but a SWORD.”
        In Luke 22:36 Yeshua told His disciples, “He that hath no SWORD, let him sell His garment and buy one.”
        In Revelation 19:11 we read this about Him. “And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth JUDGE and make WAR.”
        Revelation 19:15 And out of His mouth goes a sharp SWORD, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron:
        In Revelation 1:16; “And He had in His right hand seven stars: and out of His mouth went a sharp TWO EDGED SWORD.
        Revelation 19:21 But the rest were killed with the SWORD of Him who sat upon the horse, by that which proceeded from His mouth…..
        Isaiah 66:15-16. “For behold, Yahweh will come with fire, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury and His rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by His SWORD will Yahweh plead with all flesh: and the slain of Yahweh shall be many.”
        I see all this as not to go as lambs to the slaughter but to fight for our rights.

        In a war zone, using weapons of warfare is a moment by moment necessity … like the IDF soldiers, you sleep with your armor and weapons. The same as when we know trouble is around us we should remain alert and fully armed spiritually & physically – this trouble right now is already at our front doors.

        *boundaries: In this part of the world (North America) other than the rich and powerful, people hardly have walls around their homes – that makes it an open invitation for enemy attack. But this is not the case where I come from. Right around the houses, we have solid stone walls covered in concrete with broken bottles or spikes embedded into the concrete on the top of the walls that again prevents anyone coming over the top. We have a high iron gate in the front that is always kept locked. That is our boundary that no one can step into and if anyone should force their way in we have the full right to defend ourselves. Also having lived in the Middle East for 20 years, I have seen every Arab house old and new with a high wall around them, and on the outskirts of the cities, no one dare enter without permission for that person could be dead meat !!

        • Shalom Jes,

          You bring up some valid points to take into consideration.

          Though this will date me regarding my age, I was once a member of the Guardian Angels in the early 80’s.
          I not only understood that through my faith as a follower of Yeshua, I was allowed to defend those of my family and myself, but also more importantly, “others” as well.

          Many times I would be forced to intervene to save others from what was either a potentially, (or actual) dangerous situation.
          I correlated that action as a demonstration of my faith, similar to that of the parable Yeshua spoke of in Luke 10:30-36.

          Followers of Yeshua are not taught to be apathetic.

          Be Blessed

          • Shalom alienated,
            Good to hear from you. It’s true when you say “Followers of Yeshua are not taught to be apathetic.” Apart from ourselves and families we must be ready to also defend the vulnerable and the weak.
            I am thankful for part of the upbringing I’ve had in my town back home where everyone was like family and everyone were swift to come to the aid of the other in good times and bad times. Sadly gone are those days for there aren’t much people like that anymore in this world but just a few. I’m glad I am one of them and for the Godliness, and the daring I developed within my community to speak up boldly and to defend the weaker ones. Just can’t keep my mouth shut when I see someone being hurt by the other.
            I believe in Yahweh’s angels. My dad always said be kind and help beggars and those who are underprivileged and G-d will send you help through His Angels when you desperately need it. How true, because there were times I needed assistance when I lived in NY and felt lost, and it was amazing how different people showed their kindness and helped me in various matters. These people I call “Angels of the Earth” – May they be blessed. Yahweh has put a little Angel in everyone of us and we’ve got to be that Angel when someone needs our help. How nice, you were one of them. Keep up the good work.
            Yahweh Bless

            • Hi Jes,

              Thanks.

              Though we may not agree on each and every aspect of theology, in this respects we are kindred spirits.
              Humble protector’s of those who can not defend themselves against the injustices and evil of this world.
              Unfortunately, I still find myself at times attempting to do this. Not advisable at my age.🙂

              May Yeshua’s shalom be upon you.

  50. you clearly do not understand hell or Christ or the gospels. You live by the letter of the law not the spirit of the law. I cannot wait for this world to pass by and lot you with it and your ‘god’.

    • David,

      That would be a rather bold judgment to make, based simply upon my above proposal.

      Perhaps, (since it is apparent that you believe that you are vastly superior within that of your own understanding, as opposed to the rest of us here), you would be kind enough to enlighten us?

  51. Is it really that complicated?

    • David,

      Well, that would depend if an individual believes they posses the same intellectual properties of God Himself or not.

      I myself, was “spiritually born again” 40 years ago now, and have spent many, many hours in the study of God’s word. I believe that I possess, more than a rudimentary understanding of both Hebrew, and of Greek, and with that, a reasonably sound understanding of God’s word as well.

      However, I do not claim to possess all of the answers, nor do I imply by what I may say, that I have complete and utter understanding either. (However I do derive a sense of amusement from those that do.)

      If you do not wish to fulfill that of my earlier request, then that is certainly your prerogative. However may I suggest that in the future, you cease from casting judgements upon another, when you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of who they are, or what it is that their theology may consist of.

      It’s that plank in the eye, as opposed to that speck thing, that I think someone spoke about once.

      Be Blessed

  52. I am going to tell you a story

    Gen 1

    Christ was the beginning and all was in Christ. In Christ (the beginning) God created the Heavens and the Earth.

    Gen 2

    Then the LORD god came from the heavens and planted a tree in paradise. It’s branches covered the heavens and was called the tree of his life. The roots covered the Earth and was called thought. Before this there was no thought on Earth just Christ. Man tasted of the tree of thought and became as the image of the Lord god, clay (matter). From then on thought brought enmity to man and he lived in clay (matter).

    NT
    Christ returned to man who remembered paradise and Christ cut the roots of the tree. Christ told man that he would return again and cast the tree into the fire and thought would be no more and all would once again live in Christ. He warned not to build on sand (matter) or on wisdom (thought) as these would not survive the casting down of the tree. He did not give us a time but said turn your eyes to the sky and watch for signs of the falling tree at that time the Beginning will return.

    • WOW!! What a story!! Clap, clap, clap!! never heard that before🙂 Lol!
      The Nephillim sure invented that one and I bet they are among us now to twist the minds of humans or is it the GMO foods that are affecting the brain? Can be both – !!BEWARE!!.

  53. That is just thought. How clever you think you are.

  54. Genesis 1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” …. “and he rested on the seventh day”

    Genesis 2 “in the DAY that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens”

    Notice the difference. It is just what the bible says.

    • this does not support what you said previously.

      I assumed you were speaking symbolically, but even in symbolism, the previous interpretation is not supported by scripture.

  55. I’m clever? better word intellectual, yes, because I do my homework before opening my mouth or putting my fingers to the keyboard – and – No it’s not just “a thought” but it is true.
    Please do your own homework. Links are provided below and most importantly seek the truth in the Holy Bible because the following has all the answers in there.

    Affects of GMO or GM Foods on humans and the environment:
    http://panacea-bocaf.org/geneticallymodifiedfood.htm
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/27/19-studies-link-gmo-foods-to-organ-disruption.aspx
    http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_23129.cfm

    The Evils of the Nephillim:
    “…we are entering a battle to the death, where the enemy won’t just be a “bump in the night” but manifesting openly as Nephilim (demon/human, Rephaim (giants), long walkers, DNA mutates of all types (human/animal, human/reptile, human/bird, human/sea creatures, human/plant, human/robotics—transgenic/transhumanism/eugenics), without conscience, driven by a lust for blood. The increase in Lucifer’s demands for human sacrifice is obvious. The brutality of man with Satan’s mind will be beyond the comprehension of most in the ease-loving west. Unless you’ve come out of Satanism and been delivered by the power of Yahweh, few will understand what is coming….. ” Read more here – Important teaching. http://iamyahweh.blogspot.com/2011/01/scriptural-spiritual-warfare-part-iii.html
    I will be praying for you whether you like it or not and for Robert Wahler as well. Have a nice day!!

  56. God creates the heaven and the earth in six days and rests on the seventh.
    The LORD god MAKES the earth and the heaven (notice the different order) in one day (the day that God rests).

    • David,

      Well….. “Um” ….. That was… “Um” … very good.

      Why don’t we move on to something else now though.
      Oh look! Here are some nice crayons to play with. Look how bright and colourful this one is.
      Why don’t you have a “swig” of milk from your “sippy-cup” and go draw a us a pretty picture.

      This of course would be just my personal opinion, but I don’t think that David should go outside to play without wearing a helmet.
      Apparently though, ignorance IS bliss.
      🙂

      • Lol! this is turning into a comedy!

      • Strange that when I quote directly from the bible you run out of things to say.

        • David,

          I thought what I had to say regarding your commentary, not only complemented what Jes had said above, but also spoke volumes on its own?

          After reading your previous remarks, I had expected something far more noteworthy than the convoluted interpretation that you provided. (Which frankly, simply left me bewildered.) My initial reaction was to attempt to offer you a different interpretation, and with that, perhaps a different understanding. However, it has been my experience here as a participant on this site, that many only wish to express their views, and are unwilling to listen to others. Consequently, I have found this experience to be draining and unfortunately, a waste of time. Therefore instead, I simply expressed my thoughts.

          It appears though that 45 is willing to participate within a dialogue with you. It will be interesting to see how this will unfold.

          Hang in there 45.

          Jes lets get comfy.
          I’ll bring the pop-corn if you’ll bring the beverages.

        • ==================== War of the Worlds ======================
          1938 Orson Welles News Flash: “The Canadians have just landed… eh? “
          Wake up alienated, …the dialog is not over…


          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)
          ==================== War of the Worlds ======================

      • This “Angel in the Bush” thread reminds me of the old movie:
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ten_Commandments_(1956_film)

        Love scorned Nefertari says: “Here is your sword Rameses. Bring it back with Moses’ blood on it.” When defeated Rameses returns from watching his army drown in the Red Sea, he walks into the palace with a clean sword and Nefertari says: “You couldn’t even kill him!” Then with a depressed frown, Rameses replies: “His god IS God.”

        After reading between-the-lines of all of David’s posts on this thread, there is something David seems to have a firm gasp of, the fact that God IS God, and irrespective of what we think our desires, responcibilities, or impact value is, God is sovereign. David also seems to perceive Romans 8 as having merit, and this is always rooted in John3:8, so how can ignore that? : ), This does not mean I see eye-to-eye with David across the board, but rather that merit is worth acknowledgement, certainly enough to engage in a peaceful dialog.

        Enjoy your popcorn. I eat it sometimes (without seasoning) to help keep the flesh from growing around the mid-section. : )

  57. Hi everyone,

    Lots of discussion this morning.
    David, I do not understand your position on the difference between the following two trees, if you care to elaborate.

    Gen 2:9b …the tree of life also in the midst of the garden,
    Gen 2:9c …the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    • The tree of knowledge is apparently at the root of the tree of life. So one springs from the other i.e. same tree in reality. This ‘tree’ is possibly the ‘restrainer’ which when taken out of the way results in.. well you know the rest.

    • ==============================================================================================
      Thank you for the frank reply David.

      I’ve looked at the following Tree Stories, for scripture touches this symbol many times:
      Major Tree Stories: Gen2-Gen3, Dan4:10-37, and Eze17:1-24
      Minor Tree Stories: Jer17:5-9, Eze20:46-48, Mat7:17-20, Mat13:31,32

      After contemplating your feeling “i.e. same tree in reality”, I cannot rationalize why Adam would be need to be kept from the Gen3:22 Tree of Life Gen3:22 if he had already eaten of the same tree. I mean, in Gen2:16,17 God originally gave permission to eat of the Tree of Life, but not of the Tree of Knowledge. It seems contradictory that God would say; “you may eat of this tree”, but at the same time, “you may not eat of this tree”. Obviously, Eve knew it was forbidden by her initial answer to the serpent.

      There obviously is a good/evil dualism imagery dynamic in the tree symbols. It seems converting both trees into ‘branches and roots of the same tree’ causes the following problem: Eating of the roots of the Tree of Life brings death, therefore the whole of the Tree of Life is not life, but rather is partially life and partially death.

      There are dualism pictures in scripture like the double-edged sword of judgment coming from Christ’s mouth, which perfectly separates good from evil. The tree imagery seems to be more a comparison of apples with oranges, rather than apple core from apple skin.

      Your thoughts David?
      ==============================================================================================

  58. LORD god says… “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die”

    No reference to tree of life. “Any other tree” does not include tree of life. as will be apparent below the tree of life is accessed via the tree of knowledge. i.e eternal life is a kind of knowledge or insight. it continues..

    Serpent implies. It was not God that said that it was the LORD god.

    “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

    “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil”

    “Then the eyes of both of them were opened”

    “And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

    I.e once Adam and Eve have knowledge they will attain ‘everlasting life’ and as gods live forever. So he puts fire around the tree.

    So what does all this mean? Well The LORD god does not want man to have knowledge in case they become like gods. God however knows that it will ‘open their eyes’. The LORD god did not want Eve to eat of the tree of knowledge as it leads to the tree of life (from the roots of the tree (knowledge) up to the top (life). Hence the tree of knowledge is at the roots of the tree of life.

    The access to knowledge can bring good or evil (ie in itself it is neutral just a power). But used wisely it can bring life. Well lets be more careful here the LORD god does not want man to have knowledge of the tree of life. I just wonder why not, is it his only source of power?

    “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened”

    • interesting comment string….

      ——————–

      The discussion changed from an angel in the bush, to a serpent in the tree..

      ———————–

      before the serpent, man only knew good……..and had eternal life and fellowship with God, which IS eternal life.

      only the “gods” who were demons, knew evil…so the Lord knew the harm of being like the demon gods…..

      the harm would be the LOSS of eternal life…..not the gain of it.

      man lost the eternal life that he had – only knowing good – when he sinned (tasting evil) in the garden.

      • The discussion here is the The LORD god and God are separate hence the different names and the serpent’s comment “Did God really says that? But He knows your eyes will be opened.”
        But it is true that knowledge for the flesh causes death and knowledge of the spirit causes life. (see comment below)

        “Before the serpent, man only knew good” no, before the serpent man did not know anything but the serpent wished them to have knowledge for the flesh.

        This IS related to the burning bush.

    • man only knew good……..and had eternal life

      That is an important assumption. How do you know that?

      • “And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like ONE OF US, knowing good and evil.”

        Marianne, who are the ‘us’ that know good and evil as you say “only the “gods” who were demons, knew evil…” The Lord god appears to be one of them.

        • you can know what evil is, and not commit evil because one is holy and finds evil abhorrent…….this would describe God

          others can know evil, and commit it….this describes demons, fallen angels and fallen mankind

        • The “us” in that verse refers to the Godhead, Father son and holy spirit.

          it is not a reference to the false gods ( Demons)

          • You are making this up as you go along. The ‘us’ refers to those that were in Eden with the Lord god. They did not wish Eve to taste of the tree of knowledge as she would taste of the tree of life as a result so they barred it with rings of fire lest she become gods like them knowing good and evil.

            “The “us” in that verse refers to the Godhead, Father son and holy spirit.” Where on earth are you getting this from?

        • Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, [ AND ] the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
          ======================================
          Mart,
          You are making this up as you go along.
          You blend two trees together, where scripture has them separate.

          Where on earth are you getting this from?

          • They are the trees in the middle of the garden that Eve cannot eat. The reason they are depicted as two is because one is of the earth and one leads to heaven but they are connected. One leads to the other. That is why the Lord god realised (already knew) that once the tree of knowledge was tasted the tree of life would naturally follow.

          • In fact the serpent is the wisest of all the beasts in the garden. The ‘us’ are the beasts that the Lord god made. It is they that had knowledge and wished Eve not to eat of. The Lord god is the ruler of the beasts. Now you have your burning bush. Now who do you worship?

            • Serpents are wise? I say no! rather they are Crafty.
              Wise – wrong word translated
              Crafty is Cunning, Sneaky, Sly, devious, Astute, Wily.
              The serpent is also a dumb-head because if he is in the bush and sees someone or something coming along, he assumes that, that someone/something is going to kill him – so he strikes first. He is vicious and deadly with no concern for anyone or anything.

              What Yeshuah(Jesus) meant was, for us to be Shrewd.
              Shrewd is Sharp, Alert, Discerning – not naive. God hates ignorant and naive people the Scripture say so – not me.🙂

              If we follow or obey every Word of Yahweh (God of Israel) then He gives us power to do what He did as the Scripture below & much more.
              Luke 10: 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

          • Mart: “It is they(serpent included according to Mart) that had knowledge and wished Eve NOT to eat of.”

            If the smart serpent truly did NOT want Eve to eat of knowledge, he would have just kept his mouth shut. The fact that the serpent beguiled Eve, proves that instead of witholding knowledge of depravity from Eve, the serpent actually wanted to drag humanity down to their level, being depraved into evil as they themselves were.

            • Yes I understand wha you are saying but The ‘us’ and the Lord god did not wish Eve to eat from the tree. The serpent is the beast that disobeyed the Lord god and tricked Eve. This ‘wisest’ of the beasts wished for Eve to gain knowledge of the flesh. The others including the Lord god did not wish this and knew that such knowledge would also bring knowledge of the spirit and lead Eve to the tree of life. Inspite of what Marianne said Eve had not been given everlasting life before that (that is just made up) and the Lord god realised that man could become likes gods after eating from the tree of knowledge that would lead to the tree of life.

              • Jes,

                It looks like we might now require two helmets?
                I’m going back to my pop-corn.🙂

                • O, Blimey🙂 I just finished Shabbat prayers and onto my chocolate nut brownies and tea … yumm!!

                  2 Helmets .. Humm! I see what you mean 3 – 1 = we now have two. Right!!🙂

                  Shabbat Shalom!!

          • Mart: “In spite of what Marianne said Eve had not been given everlasting life before that (that is just made up)…”

            Rom5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

            45: No, Marianne did not fabricate. Rom5:12 tells us humanity would have lived forever if none had eaten of the forbidden tree.

            • 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

              13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

              No Law no death. The Lord gods law introduced sin and therefore death. Why?

  59. The tree of knowledge is just a power but

    “The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life”

    Imagine if roots of the tree were laid out upon the Earth.

  60. ==========================================================David: “The LORD god and God are separate”
    45: In what way?

    David: “knowledge …leads to the tree of life”
    45: Why say “leads” when you have ambiguity as to what this ‘life’ is?

    David: “LORD god does not want man to have knowledge of the tree of life. I just wonder why not, is it his only source of power? ”
    45: At the other end of Bible there are men having authority over the Tree of Life, eating its fruits, & using its leaves to heal the nation, therefore David; Who is this LORD god you speak of, who you say “does not want man to have …the tree of life”?
    ==========================================================
    Rev2:7 …To him who overcomes I will give to eat of the Tree of Life…
    Rev22:2 …Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev22:14 Blessed are they who do His commandments, that their authority will be over the Tree of Life…
    ==========================================================

    • There is no ambiguity. Life is an extension of ‘knowledge’. But knowledge of the spirit not of the flesh. The serpent deceived by tempting with knowledge of the flesh but with it came knowledge of the spirit (hence good and evil) (‘and their eyes were opened’). This worried the Lord god and his ‘us’ (sorry about the English) as it would make man like gods if they attained (tasted of) the tree of life. Hence the fire around the tree of life. Christ came to guide us to the tree of life. Then it gets interesting…. does one go for everlasting life offered by the ‘tree of life’ or does one find it and cut it down as it is a trick of the Lord god? ie die in order that one shall live.?

      The burning bush is the Lord god by the way Marianne.

    • David and/or Mart,

      I do NOT believe ‘knowledge of good’ = ‘life’, but rather understand them as two, which are distinctly separate.

      Please confirm that you believe ‘the good side’ of the tree of knowledge equals the ‘life’ aspect of the Tree of Life? Is this what you believe?

      • Interesting but the Lord god did not see them (knowledge of good and life) as distinctly different. The lord god sees that knowledge of good (and Eve’s eyes being opened) would result in Eve eating from the tree of everlasting life, something that the lord god god and the beasts clearly saw as a threat. The serpent wished to have power over eve by giving her knowledge of the flesh.

  61. David and Mart,

    You would not be the first, (nor the last), to take a few passages of scripture and from there, develop a form of theology from them. It unfortunately happens all the time. However for our interpretations to be correct, they must also line up with the fullness of scripture.

    If I may, when you read The Book of Genesis, (Sefer Bereshit) you will notice, (as you have specifically brought attention to it above), that from chapter 1:1 through to 2:3 only the word “God” has been written and utilized.
    This English word “God” has been translated from the Hebrew word “אלהים” which is transliterated as “’Elohiym”.
    The definition of “’Elohiym” which is a masculine noun, suggests “plurality”. This plurality would then conform with what it is that John opens with within his Gospel from John 1:1 through to verse 10.

    “אלהים” or ‘Elohiym expresses the plurality in respects to our understanding of the Trinity, and that God, the Word and Spirit were all involved collectively within the process of Creation.

    After the process of Creation was complete, you now see the terminology of LORD God being utilized, (Gen.2:4.)
    The English word “LORD” was translated from the Hebrew letters “יהוה”, which is the “Tetragrammaton” (four letters) consisting (from right to left) of “Yod, Hey, Vav Hey” and transliterated as“Yĕhovah”, or YHVH.

    (Note- The pronunciation of this personal and intimate Name of God the Father has been lost over the years and nobody knows how it is supposed to be pronounced today. The Third Commandment, (Exodus 20:7), states, “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” On account of this, the Masoretes ensured that the Name of the LORD would not be taken in vain by substituting the vowel marks for Adonai and putting them under the letters from, “יהוה” to “יְהֹוָה” in the running text. This is called “Qere” (what is to be read) as opposed to “Ketiv” (what is to be written). The Hebrew text then, contains the “Ketiv” but uses the vowels of the “Qere” and this has lead to the obviously incorrect pronunciation of the Name as being translated into the English as Jehovah. Hebrew has no letter “J”.)

    The English word “God” that follows, has again been translated from the Hebrew “אלהים” or “’Elohiym”.

    This should not be understood as being representative to mean “separate from”, (or in being different than) the previous entries.
    I believe that it is instead, referring to the specificity of the Godhead, rather than any distinct separateness of the “’Elohiym” as a whole , or One. Therefore within Genesis 3:1 where satan approaches Eve and says, “Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”, the word translated as “God”, (again being ‘Elohiym), is satan referring to the wholeness of the Trinity to further substantiate his question, and should not be understood that he is implying that there are distinctly different Divine entities that stated this or that.

    In respects to the Tree’s of “Good and Evil”, and of “Life”. Both Tree’s were indeed in the garden of Eden. This is confirmed within Genesis 2:9. However, God did not appear to be overly concerned about both Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Life.
    This can be understood as being a factual statement by what God says within Genesis 2:16 and 17.
    “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

    So from the above noted three verses we can understand that “both” tree’s were in the garden, yet only one of them was forbidden to eat, and that the consequences of doing that, would be death. Ergo, logically then, both Adam and Eve were not subjected to death if they did not eat from that specific tree. As well then, one could also reasonably conclude, that eating from the Tree of Life, had no negative consequences whatsoever. This would also mean, that the two Tree’s were distinctly different from each other in nature, and would not as you suggest, share a common system of root or source.

    Consequently, because this fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil was consumed, within Genesis 3:22 a “concern” is now presented.
    “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

    The context is clearly expressed since “YHVH ‘Elohiym” is doing the speaking, that the English “the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil” is referring to the “us” as being the ‘Elohiym, and the concern being, that prior to this event taking place, eating from the Tree of Life would have no negative consequences, (since immortality had been already established), but that now having eaten from the Tree of “Good and Evil” of which one of the consequences was “death” that consequence would therefore be negated, if both Adam and Eve were to NOW eat of the Tree of Life. This would also substantiate that the Tree’s are distinctly different in nature and source, and could not share a common root system. For if they did, there would be no concern expressed regarding a possible calamity taking place, because in eating from one if they were joined, would mean logically, that they had already eaten from both, and that the ensuing damage would have already taken place.

    Just my thoughts after I swallowed my pop-corn.

  62. You have some seriously weird commentators here…

    But, the LORD is blessing you, and keeping you;
    The LORD is letting His face to shine upon you, and favoring you;
    The LORD has lifted up His countenance upon you, and given you Shalom.
    Blessed is the LORD!

  63. Blessings keksinnot,

    Thank you for your rendition of the “Birkat Kohanim” and encouragement.

    Below is a beautifully chanted rendition, which brings tears to my eye’s. I hope that all will enjoy it as much as I do.

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Blessings/Synagogue_Blessings/Priestly_Blessing/Birkat_Kohanim/birkat_kohanim.html

    Be Blessed

  64. ““אלהים” or ‘Elohiym expresses the plurality in respects to our understanding of the Trinity”
    “I believe that it is instead, referring to the specificity of the Godhead rather than any distinct separateness ”

    These are just assertions. If there is a subtle (or wise) beast then there are less wise beasts i.e. the |Lord god is not alone. I hesitate to call the Elohiym ‘us’ as the beasts but the idea that there was JUST a trininty in Eden is clearly not true.

    As for the trees they were both in the midst (middle) of the garden and were therefore clearly related. It SEEMS obvious that one reaches one through the other ie life through knowledge and this is what worried the Lord god. Eat from knowledge and I will put fire around the other.

    “since immortality had been already established” Where is that stated? That was preserved for the gods.

    • =========================================================
      Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
      =========================================================
      David: “ie life through knowledge and this is what worried the Lord god.”

      45: David, if you are correct, then this makes the LORD God out to be really dumb! I mean, IF the LORD God was concerned humanity might obtain “god-hood” like himself (or themselves as elohiym suggests) then putting Adam in the garden right next to the Tree of Life would be incredibly incompetent. Perhaps the LORD God’s error (sin) would have been prevented if he had just put an angel in the garden to do the job of being its gardener, and restrict Adam from EVER having access to the forbidden tree. See the problem?

      The real reason humanity was exiled from the Tree of Life, AFTER eating of the forbidden fruit, was that restoring humanity to immortality in his ‘fallen sinful state’ would FOREVER banish humanity from God! So the exile from the garden, was not born out of God’s own personal inferiority complex, but rather out of God’s love that humanity be empowered with an opportunity to re-connect with God, and in that communion acquire eternal life with his ‘fallen sinful state’ properly fixed. How fixed? Through sinless (i.e. 100% Holy) blood, as mankind’s substitutionary payment, a debt paid in full.

    • David: “That (immortality) was preserved for the gods.”

      45: There is a limited element of truth in your statement. The angel Satan who was speaking through the mouth of a physical reptile serpent to Eve is an immortal being, but he is separated from eternal life (i.e. eternal love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness, faithfulness, temperance, & self-control). Eventually, Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire in eternal torment. Since Satan is immortal, his pain and suffering will NEVER end.

      So there is no advantage to immortality, unless that which is excellent can be enjoyed during that VERY, VERY, VERY LONG TIME.

    • David, or Mart, or both,

      This is why I stated earlier that a dialogue with some, can be a complete waste of energy and time.

      alienated- “אלהים” or ‘Elohiym expresses the plurality in respects to our understanding of the Trinity, and that God, the Word and Spirit were all involved collectively within the process of Creation.”

      David- “theses are just assertions”

      Response; If by that you mean, in by utilizing the words that were written, and applying the correct applicable definitions to those words, and then from that formulating a logical conclusion as to what it is that is being conveyed, then I’d agree.
      “Yes”, they are what the word “assertions” would imply, and that definition would be correct.
      You don’t believe that God, the Word and the Spirit were all involved collectively within the process of Creation?

      David- “I hesitate to call the Elohiym ‘us’ as the beasts but the idea that there was JUST a trinity in Eden is clearly not true.”

      Response; The context of Genesis 3:22 could not be more clearly defined! If I were to perhaps use the following example for you, you might possibly see why this is true. To preface my example, I will utilize “damage that was caused to the brain while playing without a helmet”, as being the equivalent substitute to that of the “eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil”.

      “The leader of the group of idiots said, Behold the man is become as one of “us” and is now brain damaged: and now if he reaches out to eat of this fruit from the tree of life, he will live like that forever.” (Sorry, I couldn’t help myself. lol.)

      The “us” above would obviously be referring to the one that is doing the speaking. Therefore since in scripture the One that is doing the speaking is “YHVH ‘Elohiym” the “us” is referring to Them, (‘Elohiym) as well. How you can possibly associate the “us” as to having something to do with the serpent is beyond my comprehension, but does explain somewhat, your ineptness in being able to interpret scripture correctly. And nowhere in my commentary above, did I even come close to implying that the Trinity was only in Eden? (Are you on crack?)

      Furthermore, regarding the fact that immortality had already been established, that fact can be derived by merely utilizing plain common sense. YHVH ‘Elohiym said, “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

      The warning applied specifically to fruit of that Tree, and that “death” itself would be the consequence. This is the very first time within the Torah that the concept of death is even mentioned. And as well there are no other warnings whatsoever prior to YHVH ‘Elohiym stating this that would possibly cause either Adam or Eve to die. I therefore don’t believe that it is a stretch whatsoever to then conclude, that neither Adam or Eve were subject to death before they ate of this fruit, and that “it” was the catalyst for the dynamic shift of change.

      I had hoped to not get involved within this particular discussion. I think I will see what is on another channel.
      I leave you with the following Scripture,

      “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”

      2 Timothy 4:3,4.

      • Oh I forgot to add above regarding the immortality of Adam and Eve. Since they were not forbidden to eat of the Tree of Life, which would give them said immortality, wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that they had eaten of it already some time before?

        Hang in there 45.

  65. Top of This Thread: “Angel in the Bush” Who is the angel in the Bush?
    Marianne: “For this reason, I propose that Jesus was / is the Malak Yehovah, the Angel of the Lord. This was his title before he came to earth.”

    Glorified Angel:
    Ps 104:4 Who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
    Rev 10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

    Glorified Jesus:
    Rev 1:13-16 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the chest with a golden girdle. v14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; v15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. v16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shines in his strength.

    Could have been an angelic messenger manifesting as a go-between -or- it could have been Jesus himself. I do not know which, but whichever it was, absolute holiness was dominate else Moses would not have needed to remove his shoes. Compare Joshua 5:15.

    Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

    • Well all in one post but..

      alienated
      “”wouldn’t it be reasonable to assume that they had eaten of it (life) already some time before?” No not really. but guessing is your favorite pass time (and pop corn)

      4sq
      “then putting Adam in the garden right next to the Tree of Life would be incredibly incompetent. ”

      “God, the Word and the Spirit were all involved collectively within the process of Creation”

      ““The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life””

      So these three points … Yes it would be ‘incompetent, but unavoidable because the garden only existed BECAUSE of these two trees that’s why they are referred to as being in the middle (midst) the garden radiates from them. In fact the are SO important that Eve is told to stay away from them due to their power. God, the WORD and the SPIRIT were all involved collectively within the process of Creation” When the LORD god thought it became so with the WORD. When Adam listed the animals it became so. because THOUGHT IS the act of creation. hence knowledge of flesh resulted in bodies of flesh. “they will become like us knowing good and evil” yes, CREATING good and evil. But with this power what will they do with the very central tree, life?. This latter point is what all the so called ‘mystics’ discovered which gave them great power. They fell for the creative material power of Satan (didn’t we all?). Christs statement about the mind is central to the tree’s power, he is saying that you do not realise the power you have and you are wasting it on material thoughts. But if you believe in Me you will realise eternal life. How? because it becomes so, our spirits already have the potential of eternal life did but we believe.

      So the LORD god ordered the law for us to stay away from the creative power altogether but satan gave us material power. Christ wishes us knowledge of the Spirit. Which of those three would you follow? Well I know the law followers answer and I know the so called mystics answer. But the interesting point is still what to do with this (these) trees when they are found? But as Christ says, nothing MATERIAL lasts forever!

      • David, it is too difficult to follow your statements here because:

        (1) You’ve posted a subheading reply under a rhetorical post of mine which was NOT the post I directly addressed to you.

        (2) Your quotes are poorly labeled. It looks like to the casual observer that I would have been the source of three of your quotes, when in fact I was the source of only one.

        (3) It really would be easier to follow your presentation if you used scripture references within your posts, so that there is no ambiguity as to what you wish to communicate.

        (4) You neglected to address my logic for incompetence, which was that appointing an angel instead of humanity to be the gardener of the garden would have solved your problem, thus it was NOT unavoidable.
        David: “‘incompetent, but unavoidable” – Feb 18, 2012 at 12:03 pm

        (5) Since Adam Gen2:20 creatively named 1,000s of creatures, he had thought WITHOUT tasting of the forbidden tree, just not thoughts of enmity yet. And Adam naming the animals did NOT create the animals, for Gen2:19 plainly says God himself created them and afterward brought the animals to Adam to name. So your logic is contradictory, causing value to disappear like a cloud floating away, seeming to promise rain only to disappear at the horizon.

        David: “Before this there was no thought on Earth just Christ. Man tasted of the tree of thought and became…” – Feb 16, 2012 at 12:14 pm
        David: “When Adam listed the animals it became so. because THOUGHT IS the act of creation.” – Feb 18, 2012 at 12:03 pm

    • “And you shall KNOW the truth and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:32)”

      Knowledge setting us free? Well I’ll be….

      • Joh 18:38a Pilate saith to him, What is truth?

        This was a valid question Pilate asked, for how can one KNOW it unless one defines what IT is? And after that one must grapple with whether the word KNOW is a noun or a verb. I believe your use of

        John 8:32 has KNOW as a verb, as where the Tree of KNOWledge was a noun.

        Mart: “Knowledge setting us free? Well I’ll be….”

        No Mart. The noun, TRUTH is setting us free.

  66. Mart

    “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
    (John 3:5-6 KJV)

    “The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life”

    Knowledge of the flesh is death, knowledge of the spirit if life.

    The Lord god did not wish man to know this or indeed anything but Christ did. Some still don’t.

  67. “Many dive for pearls and come up with nothing calling themselves Christians.” They worship the maker of clay men that demands obedience of his laws.

    • David: “demands obedience of his laws”

      Ok David, I’m listening to you. Personally, I worship this maker of clay men! …and I feel he is giving me a pretty sweet deal. Far better than immortality, Eternal Life means happy, joyful, exponentially satisfying immortality. Not just any old immortality, which could either be boring or painful, but rather a type of immortality whose excellence is far better than what dreamers could ever dream. To the degree that we see multi-faceted beauty in nature whether by creatures or their habitats, this same degree of creative genius will exemplify Eternal Life! God is practically handing this kind of Life to us on a silver platter, yet the majority of humanity Matt7:14 stubbornly say; “No.”

      Actually, the laws serve a couple purposes aside of obedience. Firstly, his laws help define what Love is. Secondly, his laws descriptively prove that all clay men have broken (sinned) the Law of Love. Thirdly, his broken laws point to the necessity for a blood atonement, for without the shedding of blood Heb9:22 there is no forgiveness of sins. Why blood? Because the life of a creature is in the blood Deu12:23. But Jesus said John6:53 that eating his blood (sinless blood) would give life. Obviously Jesus was talking about a spiritual principle because Jesus’ 5 liters of earthly blood was not collected by a blood bank upon his death, to divide up in equal portions to the billions of people who would be born. Jesus similarly John6:53 talked about cannibalizing his flesh, yet this too is a spiritual principle.

      Gal3:24 tells us the primary purpose of the law was to drive it into our thick skulls that it is literally impossible Gal3:11 to completely 100% obey his Law of Love for any human, except the virgin born Jesus Christ. If Jesus had not been virgin born, he would have inherited his earthly father’s Exo34:7 sin, which would have nullified Jesus’ sinless life.

      Summary: God desires us to obey his laws, but unless we are first brought the gate of Jesus’ atonement, we can NEVER acquire the Holy Spirit to live within us, who empowers us to obey those laws by putting new desires into our hearts to actually WANT to obey his laws. It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to get the Holy Spirit to live within one’s self, without going through the blood of Jesus, which is acquired by asking for and receiving by faith this free (but by no means ‘cheap’) gift.

      This Eternal Life can be yours David, but you must go through Jesus’ blood. It is not by my words, nor the words of any who post here, nor the words of ANY person you know. It is only through the Eternal Jesus’ 100% Holy blood, that you can have this Eternal Life full of soul satisfying joy.
      ==============================================================================================

      • Thanks for reply. I have heard that “creation is the shadow of the tree.” and that his is where the dragon lives.

  68. Alienated I would stick to pop corn if I were you and try not to dribble. As you grow older you will still not understand.

    • David,

      The “רוח הקודש” is my discerning guide to all truth, and it is He that I follow rather than you.

      I hope that I never understand your particular “dribble”.

      Oh and if pink was not your color of choice, it was only meant as a suggestion.

  69. Mart and David

    As you have probably worked out by now this is NOT a Christian website. They are liars. They promote Yahweh as the true god. Leave them to their ignorance and their fate.

    • Hi Steve, (Doc.)

      This is just a guess, but I suspect that your discipline is that of Proctology ….. right?

      • I wonder who he thinks the christian God is…..if not Yahweh?

        • Probably he thinks it is the same god he worships – the one with horns, a tail and a pitchfork in hand.

        • Hi Marianne,

          I think that they/he believes that the Name is “Ehyeh” rather than YHVH.
          However that would still not explain the convoluted interpretation that they/he expressed above regarding the “us” and tree’s.

          El Shaddai, Yeshua, and Ruach HaKodesh know the heart of the individual though, and that is all that truly matters.

          Be Blessed

      • Hahaha!🙂 alienated, you are funny Lol!. Indeed! it must be ‘proctology’ because the enemy of Yahweh is the ‘god’ of that particular area.

        • well, Yahweh is the head , not the tail

          and that is a point in itself.

          🙂

        • Hi Jes,

          Thanks.
          Sometimes I just can’t help myself ya know.
          Sometimes people just leave that door wide open for comment and … well… I comment.

          I also have a sneaking suspicion that David, Mart, and the Doctor of Proctology there, are all the same individual. For in my opinion, it is highly unlikely that three individuals that happen to share the same distorted view of scripture, would also happen to post on the same solitary thread within a period of only a couple of days.

          I can’t prove it, but they all “walk, talk, and sound” like a duck to me, and I just don’t believe that it happens to be a flock of them.

          Glad that you find me entertaining though.
          (Hey, I’m here all week!) 🙂

          Maybe now we can carry on unencumbered? (we can only hope.)

          Be Blessed.

          • Hi alienated,
            ~~~ We’ve all heard about the ‘weeds(darnel) among the wheat’ and so on, they are everywhere and they do drain the life or the nutrients out of the wheat. In my opinion it’s best to leave them alone, for soon Yeshua himself will pluck them out and burn them in the eternal fire.
            ~~~ I prefer to save my energy and time on those who are willing to listen and learn rather than use it on those who keep banging on the same old broken drums. Frankly, it’s draining me to even read their mumbo jumbo.
            ~~~ You and 45sq. have been trying to put the spangled Word of God into mangled minds – it’s not working no matter how you try to do it. When people embrace the New Age Religion, they soon enter into their ‘nirvana’ an illusionary heaven where they think they have found their masters one of them being their Jesus. There are different ‘Jesus’ in most religions and they take the scriptures from the Bible, then try to fit them and their Jesus somewhere in their teachings and think they have come up with the right answers … thus draining the life of others who speak the truth to them. But we the ‘wheat’ know that there is only one YESHUA, & He is the only Savior of all mankind – that is if they will accept Him… So this takes us back to Deuteronomy 30:15-20 Choose Life or choose Death.
            ~~~ Meantime, take of your hard hat, leave the Pop-corn for now and eat half a dozen eggs for breakfast washed down with a large glass of milk for energy. And 45squared you might as well do the same. Have a good one!! Lol! Laila Tov. Shalom!

          • The ‘makers’ (Yahweh) adversary is Satan.

            “Follow the Spirit of the law NOT the Word of the law”
            and
            “The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life””
            are a direct challenge to rise above both to the Father

            “I wonder who he thinks the christian God is…..if not Yahweh”

            It is Christ the Father. I thought you were a Christian. The Father does not need a box or a bush or a tent or burnt meat. You have been deceived.

            • Jesus is the Christ, not the Father.

              The Father is the father of of Christ Jesus.

              You do not believe the Word of God which describes this bush experience.

              What is the name of the bible that you use?

              It is not the Christian one.

              • My Bible warns against Yahweh. So does yours.

                “The Father is the father of of Christ Jesus”? You do mean His spiritual Father don’t you?

                • if your bible warns AGAINST Yahweh, then you are neither Jew nor Christian. You are pagan.

                  Jesus was spirit before he came to earth. His spirit father was God the Father.

                  When he incarnated, his true Father remained God, the Father. The Father God was who put the Y chromosome in Jesus, as Jesus had no earthly father.

  70. Steve. Save your ‘breath’ the intellect comes from Christ. These are people of clay, Hence their god. They are not in The Book.

  71. “Jesus was spirit before he came to earth. His spirit father was God the Father. When he incarnated, his true Father remained God, the Father. The Father God was who put the Y chromosome in Jesus, as Jesus had no earthly father. ”

    All this is true. But this is NOT the god in a box who imbues worldly power to his followers.. That is the god of this world. Why do toy think Jesus changed the law from “an eye for an eye” to “turn the other cheek” . His spiritual Father teaches forgiveness not the revenge of the god of this world. His Father is a different god. Why do you think they crucified him if he followed their god? You are being deliberately blind to try and unify your god with the father.

    • you are really confused.

      Just because the Father is merciful and will forgive, does not mean he ignores vengeance on the unrepentant wicked.

      the father is one of power and mercy

      christians are not to take vengeance. But they can fight in self defense.

      • After all that is what Yahweh teaches right? All will be revealed as will your deceit. When does Jesus ever talk of vengeance? He just warns of the destruction of the makers world at the sixth seal. You are still following Yahweh’s law “an eye for an eye”. You are leading people astray with your own ignorance of Christ. You never did find the pearl within just the rhetoric of the deceitful which you have been listening to and following for years.

  72. …at the destruction of his world.

  73. So please tell me that you realise that Christ came to save us from Yahweh’s wrath at the destruction of his material world.

    • I think I have given you all the information you need.

      You just have to comprehend it.

      • rev 11:18

        The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great–and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

        But do you comprehend this? Who do you think is destroying the earth?

  74. Hi gang,

    Well, well, I see that that the debate continues, (sigh).

    I still submit that they are all the same person, (the same speech patterns, spelling mistakes, etc. The fact that the Gravatar logo never remains the same with all three. I mean what are the odds that all three of them use WIFI, or dial-up and not one of them are on Broadband?) As well, I find that it would be way too convenient for David to happen to be reading the page, refresh the page, read a post from Dr. P. at 1:06 pm, then respond to that post at 1:09 pm.

    Regarding his theology, (though he has not revealed that much), I’m leaning towards Gnosticism.
    May I suggest that we simply just ignore him?
    He doesn’t have the intellectual capacity nor the Spirit to comprehend.

    Be Blessed.

    Jes,

    Fine, now you say that you were only kidding. Six egg’s, a large glass of milk……. “burp”. 🙂

  75. Hi Marianne,

    Well there would be a couple of ways to figure this out for sure.
    So far Dr. P, (Steve), has had the same Gravatar over the last 4 posts. But notice that neither David or Mart have posted during this duration of time.
    If David or Mart happen to post…. the Gravatar will change, and I will bet my bottom dollar that if Dr.P. posts again, it won’t be the same Gravatar that is currently displayed over these last 4 posts. Circumstantial yes, but I am pretty sure that I am right.
    Let’s see what happens. If he goes away now, because he realizes that he can not pass this test, that would be a good thing one way or the other.🙂

    Be Blessed

  76. Not the highest IQ alienated but presumption is your art. I suspect David won’t discuss with simpletons either.

    • why don’t you ask david yourself, since you use the same computer. 🙂

    • Well,

      How nice it is to hear from you again Dr. P.
      So you “presume” that David won’t participate any further within the discussion then?
      Well that is indeed a shame, (and rather convenient I might add), though I suspect that you would have a greater insight regarding that matter than we would. Do you think that if a question was posed to him specifically, that he might be persuaded to acknowledge it and respond? Or would that mean that we would then not hear again from you? Quite the quandary isn’t it?

      Funny thing about presumption’s, they can either be born from intuition, or from the Spirit, or perhaps from simple and rudimentary common sense.
      I wouldn’t be the one to comment regarding IQ’s, for it appears that you have possibly painted yourself into the corner. I hope you enjoy watching paint dry.

      Your move David.🙂

  77. Nope I.P. address’s don’t lie there David.
    As I suspected, You and Dr. P. are one and the same.
    Mind you one would have to possess an IQ. beyond that of a common house plant to have been able to see that coming.
    Perhaps somebody should water you?

    BUSTED. LOL.🙂

  78. Final score;

    Christian’s …………. “1”

    Loopy nut-bar ……. “0”

  79. David,

    Well now that we have had our fun, and uncovered the little prank that you tried to pull, I offer you a welcome to return, (just leave the attitude behind).
    Instead of participating in a condescending, haughty and arrogant manner, you are welcome to express your view points as are all the others here.

    We all are Christian’s here David. We all try our best to not only understand the fullness of scripture, but to follow Yeshua and His teaching’s as well.

    Don’t expect anyone here to agree with you though, but perhaps if you will take the time to listen, we can explain to as to why we disagree.

    The choice is yours to make.
    Whatever it is you decide.
    Shalom and be Blessed

  80. Well it wasn’t rocket science but nevertheless I would still genuinely like to know the answer to this

    rev 11:18

    The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great–and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    This is at the seventh trumpet so who do you think is destroying the earth?

  81. Me too!

  82. Hi David, (Dr. Steve, Mart and Gordon),

    The context and answer to your question is expressed throughout the whole of the Bible, and can also be found within the preceding verse, (17).
    “Saying, We give thee thanks, O “Lord God Almighty”, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

    I am sure that you will have to agree with the fact that it is God’s wrath. Correct?

    Where I believe that you may have misinterpreted and created your ideology, is because you don’t clearly understand as to why God is subjecting this wrath.
    Could you explain your beliefs regarding this?

  83. I understand. I just don’t understand why ‘those who destroy the earth’ are to be destroyed especially when God himself is destroying the earth with the trumpets. So who are destroying the earth?I am sure there is an explanation but I don’t get it.

    • wicked man and satan have always destroyed the earth

      In God’s wrath, they are then destroyed.

      • Hi Steve,

        Though the answer to your question is relatively simple, (as Marianne has stated above), due to the multifaceted complexity of God and his Word, it is at the very same time difficult to answer in a concise manner. I will attempt to do so though, in point form.

        1) God, Yeshua and the Spirit Created the Universe and everything that is in it.

        2) After making the Earth suitable to sustain human life, They, (the ‘Elohiym) then created Adam in Their image, and then Eve from Adam.
        (At this particular point God had created a new fleshy being in which to share a relationship with. They were in this paradise on Earth called Eden “עדן”, or pleasure. Both Adam and Eve had dominion over everything, and were able to partake of everything within Eden, with only the exception being that of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Though there is no scripture that would imply that Adam and Eve were Holy, I suspect that they were innocent and similar to that of children, with no agenda’s, or any thoughts of evil whatsoever.)

        3) However, “שטן” (Satan) is the ‘Elohiym’s adversary. He then, through the guise of the serpent beguiled Eve to sample the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and break what was at that time, the only commandment that God had given them.

        4) With that act, the “nature” of Adam and Eve had changed. They were no longer innocent, and now had, and possessed the capacity to sin.
        The ‘Elohiym are Holy. Man now in breaking that commandment, had not only sinned in doing that, but had also separated themselves from their previous state of innocence, which then consequently was the proverbial wedge that caused the separation and severed the pre-existing relationship that had been established with the ‘Elohiym.

        5) From this point forward, the whole of the Tanakh, (Old Testament), and B’rit Chadashah, (New Testament) are expressing the different steps, and necessary requirements to re-establish and to reconcile this relationship.

        6) Jump a couple of thousand years ahead to the future. Yeshua, (Jesus) Was and Is, that final step and necessary requirement for reconciliation.

        7) Rev. 11:18 is just one of many verses that express the wrath that God will subject on those, that don’t accept Yeshua’s atoning blood for that reconciliation.

        They are not different God’s in the respect where YHVH is the One that punishes the son’s of disobedience, and Yeshua has a different mission altogether and is the One who instead try’s to Save. “They are working in concert together.” Yeshua was and is, the gift of Mercy and Grace from YHVH Himself.
        YHVH, Yeshua the Messiah, and the Spirit are the Holy ‘Elohiym, They are One. And the wrath is for those that don’t worship or even acknowledge Their existence.

        To me by what you have expressed above, you appear to believe that YHVH is somehow the bad guy. I am sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong with that understanding. He is Holy and owes us nothing, but has instead made every effort possible to re-establish this broken relationship. To the point that those that accept His Son, will spend eternity with Them in heaven.

        Did this happen to help? Or do you still hold the view, (which to me is what you have expressed above) that YHVH is somehow an evil God?

        Be Blessed.

  84. Dear alienated

    Many thanks. Yes you are correct I have come to the conclusion that YHVH is the bad guy. Mainly because YHVH is the One that punishes the son’s of disobedience, and Yeshua has a different mission altogether and is the One who instead try’s to Save. This is as far as I have read the main reason for the many disperate ‘versions’ of Christianity going to press. Gnostics etc. I have even heard in esoteric texts that creation is the shadow of the tree which is where the dragon lives i.e. the dragon can only survive (and was created ) because of the lack of ‘light’ due to the tree (creation). Hence the tree falling (restrainer taken out of the way , notice ‘he’ and ‘it’) destroys not only the dragon (via Michael) but creation. You may think that this is a spurious conclusion but it is not ‘mine’ it is a summary of the fragmentation of Christianity over many centuries. It may just be a conclusion to you but if you found the tree!! what would you do, cut it down and destroy the dragon and YHVH’s creation or leave it?

    • If YHVH was the one destroying such dragon’s nest, wouldn’t that make YHVH the good guy??

      • It indeed would but it also makes creation the problem. YHVH keeps trying to make a perfect creation but always ends up with a dragon. Last time he tried to destroy it and its followers with a flood (and protect Noah) and start creation again but it didn’t work. We are back in the same problem so again another destruction of creation to destroy the dragon. Christ’s point is that YHVH doesn’t realise that his creation is causing the problem. At least that is the ‘gnostic’ version of the texts. It makes sense to me.

    • Dear Steve,

      You are welcome.
      First of all, isn’t this a far nicer way to converse?
      No attitudes being demonstrated by either party, just people expressing their opinions and beliefs and as to why they hold them. And more importantly, actually listening to one another, and reflecting upon what is being said.

      Okay, lets continue.
      I wasn’t totally sure if that was your belief and understanding in respects to YHVH, however I suspected that it was by what you had written, so I thank you for your clarification regarding that. That belief is quite contrary to scripture, however I am aware that Gnosticism itself does believe the same.
      I admit that the Nag Hamaddi texts are an interesting read, however one must also take into consideration their historical origin and keep that in perspective. Gnosticism like that of Kabbalah, is steeped in man made mysticism and is derived from a mishmash of ancient sources, including Babylonian religion, astrology, myth and magic, Persian Zoroastrianism, Pythagoreanism and Neoplatonism, so therefore should not be taken seriously.

      I believe that it is imperative, that the word of God that is provided within the Tanakh and B’rit Chadashah, must be clearly understood, before one delves into any other interpretation or theology. Without having this solid foundation, being swayed from the truth is easily accomplished by satan.

      Before we continue further, I must first ask you a question.
      Have you sincerely and truly been “born again”? Have you personally accepted Yeshua as your Savior?
      I not only ask this because it has a significant impact as to where it is that you will spend eternity, but also because of how it may assist all of us here, in leading you back to the truth. YHVH’s truth. Though we can certainly be instruments for Him to utilize here, the task will be far easier if you yourself are lead by the indwelling Spirit.

      I may not be able to respond to you tomorrow, (having some prearranged commitments) however I look forward to your reply.

      Shalom and Be Blessed.

      • Born again? well more of a realisation really and not a particularly convenient one. Accepted Christ as my saviour? did you get a choice ? because I didn’t. Lead by the indwelling Spirit? yes I even have to go up mountains to know what to do next and believe me that’s inconvenient. I don’t get to go to church to try and convince god that I am ‘good enough to qualify’. He just says ‘oh shut up and get on with it’. (metaphorically – no voices) So I do. And so far the deal is that creation is the problem, stop it happening again. If you understand why then you have more clarity than I, if you don’t then you never did find Christ. Yes it’s great being ‘saved’ isn’t it?.

      • “I admit that the Nag Hamaddi texts are an interesting read, (but) should not be taken seriously.”

        Well should not be taken for granted admittedly but dismissed? I’m not so sure.

  85. Isaiah 44 then continues to speak about the workmen, craftsmen and their idols. “Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, “Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?

    Prophet Jeremiah also told the people the following: “How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? Jeremiah 8:8 As you see the true prophets always question what is written because they know in their hearts what is true and what isn’t because they live the spiritual law of freedom.

    http://www.academysounds.blogspot.com/

    Marianne I recommend you check out the work of the Hebrew scholar Jeff Benner on the names of God.

  86. http://www.youtube.com/user/ancienthebreworg?ob=0&feature=results_main

    • Fair enough Eliakim now check your conclusions “How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” too true so check your conclusions and check them again and please tell me why you ever get to the point where you think you are correct. I don’t even get close but Christ doesn’t seem to care about my conclusions.

  87. Oh and Steve,

    Please disregard anything that Eliakim may post.
    She started posting here a couple of years ago, and she believes that she is the Holy Spirit and that her deceased spouse was in actuality, the archangel Michael. It is all rather amusing if it wasn’t so very sad.

    Be blessed

  88. Hi Steve,

    I just had the opportunity to “pop” in and read your posts before heading out.

    Those were interesting answers above regarding my question as to being “saved”.
    I would really appreciate and love to hear more about it.

    Would you be kind enough to explain and describe the whole of the experience for me?
    That would be great.

    Be Blessed

  89. Not much to say really. It was like a super conscience, well compared to mine which is a bit indifferent. It’s a pain and it ruins your career but you don’t get a choice in it because it won’t go away. I just think of it as Christ’s will. Some Christians seem to get away with just the label and “oh yes I believe every word the Bible says after all it’s the word of god and Jesus is just lovely”. Well I don’t get that I get “you are just one life and there is the future of humanity at stake so get over yourself” Good luck with your faith I bet it is lovely!

    • this does not sound like a response from a saved (born again) person.

      steve ( alias…a….b…c):

      You first would have to develop a personal relationship with jesus, repent of your sins, and turn away from them, before you would be on the same wavelength as those on this site.

      It is a “born again” website, and would not fit in with your Gnostic thinking pattern.

  90. Hi alienated,

    Re. Nag Hamadi – In the Indian language ‘nag’ means ‘serpent’ and in Egypt ‘hamadi’ means ‘praised’ – (The serpent is praised???) there’s another Indian language spoken by the people on the west coast of India and they call the cobra snake ‘parro’ (pharaoh?) Humm! Interesting! In many ways India has similarities to Egypt due to the connections thru the silk road. The pharaohs revered the cobra and so do the Indians literally worship it until this day. So the Nag Hamadi Codex or whatever they call it – is sheer paganism.
    Beware!! I wouldn’t even want to explore that area even if it’s for knowledge.

    • Then you think that ignorance is bliss? Of course you do, it’s easier.

      • Steve, it seems that you do not believe in a personal devil. Please define your view of Satan.

      • Dr. Steve Loony, I do not waste my time with crackpots.
        Have a nice day!

      • Thank you Jes.

        A bit different than mindless crackpot, blaspheme can have intelligence but is diseased intelligence.

        Dr. Steve: “YHVH (keeps trying and failing) doesn’t realise (is ignorant) that his creation is causing the problem” i.e. YHVH is incompetant, ignorant, and obsessively doomed to fail.

        Since these are very strong opinions, it just logically raises the questions of Steve: Who, What, Where, When, Why, How, Which is Steve’s perception of Satan, Devil, Dragon, and Evil? Literal person(s) -or- blurred ignorant thought?

        • Hi 45sqared,
          You are right. Who is the Intelligence? He is Yahweh Himself. On the other hand satan is mighty crafty but lacks the “Intelligence”. We see the difference here that ‘black & white’ or ‘light & darkness’ can never mix. Similarly when a person voluntarily leaves the light and chooses to walk in darkness, Intelligence automatically moves away from him and what we see is the result that we are dealing with here. Satan is the ‘master mind twister’, father of lies, prince of the kingdom of gloom & doom and absolutely nothing good. Sadly majority will never hear Abba Yahweh calling “come out of my people” – thus they will descend into the kingdom of gloom and doom for eternity.
          Shalom

      • 45: Continuing on:

        Isaiah 45:7 “ I …create darkness …and create evil: I, YHVH do all these.”

        What about this verse Dr. Steve? Do you feel that perhaps YHVH failed, even at Noah’s flood, because he continues to introduce EVIL into his creation works? This would be a valid concern, because YHVH repetitively refuses to do away with Satan. YHVH created Satan in the first place knowing full well Satan would aspire to evil. Then YHVH kept Satan around, after tricking Adam and Eve. Then YHVH kept Satan around yet again after Satan had soo corrupted humanity, that it became necessary to bring Noah’s flood. Then YHVH kept Satan around after Israel escaped from Egypt. Then YHVH kept Satan around after he tried to kill baby Jesus by getting Herod to murder all the male babies. Then YHVH kept Satan around after he got Judas to betray Jesus and crucify him. Then YHVH kept Satan around after he continued to inspire the deaths of countless multitudes thereafter. YHVH again keeps Satan available after the Great Tribulation, even after Satan has killed billions of people and caused a HUGE mess in the earth’s environment. YHVH then lets Satan out of prison Rev 20:7-9 to roam free in the earth, A G A I N ! Why does YHVH keep doing this Dr. Steve?? Is YHVH just plain dumb? Or does YHVH morbidly enjoy evil mixed in with creation? Or IS IT POSSIBLE that there is a greater wisdom going on than is easily grasped by the human mind? And if so, then what wisdom could this possibly be???

        To All:
        Please let Dr. Steve ONLY answer this post, because I really want to know his viewpoint on this subject matter. OK?

        • Hi 4Squared

          Yes it does seem as though YHVH keeps Satan around. The orthodox taught view appear to be, to ‘test us/ our allegiance/obedience. The other possibility is that Christ (spiritual light) was the beginning and the Elohyim cast a shadow to form the material world. Satan can not tolerate the light but can exist in the darkness. Ie he ‘comes with’ creation. This would mean that there is nothing YHVH can do about Satan without destroying creation (which is what he keeps doing.) Otherwise why would he keep destroying creation and not just destroy Satan/satanists?

          My view of Satan is that he is material desire born of ignorance of the truth. But material and ignorance are both born of lack of Light.

          YHVH made a sheet, a separation between the waters which kept us from the light (apparently for our own good) and then does not wish us any knowledege of either evil (flesh) or good.

          But your question

          “Is YHVH just plain dumb? Or does YHVH morbidly enjoy evil mixed in with creation? Or IS IT POSSIBLE that there is a greater wisdom going on than is easily grasped by the human mind?”

          When in human history has it ever been safe to just accept authority because ‘you don’t understand’? In fact how do you know that the authority figures are not Satanists themselves. So what do we do? Well we question until we DO understand and then WE make a choice WITH knowledge. If we are not capable of that intellectual feat then why give us the choice in the garden in the first place. Well I say choice… as it turns out if we choose knowledge blades of fire are put in our path and we are cast out. So there are two possibilities
          1) Humans are not capable of understanding and therefore choosing so we should passively accept.
          2) We are capable but the powers would prefer us in ignorance.

          As God says.. it’s your choice. as Jes says

          “I wouldn’t even want to explore that area even if it’s for knowledge.”

          Then don’t go out at all. You will die.

        • Or go out it is worth the risk.

          • YHVH is the creator of all things. Evil exists because Satan rebelled against God. he once was good but changed. Evil is due to Satan and man’s fallen nature who listened to Satan.

            YHVH is intelligent beyond your wildest imagination, so making remarks that he isn’t shows you are completely lost, and have no idea who He is.

            Foolish reasonings are a waste of time and intellect.

            I suggest you accept the truth instead of rambling nonsense.

            If you do not want the truth about YHVH, then you are on the wrong website.

            So make a decision.

    • Hi Jes,

      That is interesting thanks.

      The term “Hamaddi” actually comes from the last name of “Mahmoud Pasha Hammadi” who established the town to escape from the British occupation of the time. The area was originally called “Chenoboskion” but was renamed Nag Hammadi in honour of its new founder.
      The texts are referred to as the “Nag Hamaddi codices” since they were found, and rediscovered there in December 1945.

      Gnosticism however has been around since ancient times, and many of the early Roman Catholic Church fathers were influenced by its teachings.

      Which perhaps explains a lot.

      Just two of the more prominent would be;

      Marcion of Sinope, (110-160 AD.) was a Hellenist steeped in the ideas of Plato and Gnosticism, and it was his wish to separate Christianity from having any connection whatsoever with Judaism.

      Origen, (263-339 AD.) founded a school in Alexandria Egypt that taught the allegorical interpretation of Scripture. Origen was heavily influenced by neo-Platonic Gnosticism.

      Regarding exploration, again I reiterate the necessity in having a solid Biblical foundation first, before discernment can be made regarding anything that is not considered to be canonical. Having said that though, “fear” can limit us from discovering something wonderful. Have you ever taken the opportunity to read the Book of Enoch? It was probably the first book that was ever written, and would predate Job in time considerably.
      If not, here is one of the better renditions that I have come across.

      http://www.firefromheaven.net/enoch/enochbook.html

      Be Blessed

      • Hi alienated,
        Thanks for the info. and the link on bk of enoch and yes, I did read it and also the bk of Jasher, Jubilee and some others. I got curious as to who or what the UFO’s were that led me into deep research from one subject to another starting from the seduction of Eve to the Nephillim, the rephaim and tons more and and the worship of these beings until this day.
        Shalom

  91. Hi Steve,

    You are becoming defensive again and are verbally striking out at others, (which then causes them to retaliate), and the discussion falls apart.
    I ask for you to please attempt to remain composed, and to as you say, “turn the other cheek” if you become agitated.

    Now to respond to your earlier comments, and to demonstrate to you that I am indeed listening to what you have to say, and appreciate your candor.
    You say above in regards to being “Born Again”, (and I will paraphrase rather than quote you verbatim);

    1) That it was more of a realization and that it was not a convenient one at that.

    2) That you weren’t really even given a choice in the decision whatsoever, (Implying that you were almost forced to accept this belief whether you wanted to or not). And that what happened during that realization, changed the course of your life, and more or less took over. Would that be a correct understanding on my part?

    3) That you now feel a sense of being paralyzed, and are required to go up to a “high place”, before you feel a sense of having any direction. I would appreciate it if you could clarify for me as to how this direction is received.

    4) That after this experience it has stopped you from able to do some of the things that you would otherwise like to do. You used, going to Church, for example.

    5) You feel that you are in a sense “unworthy”, and that you believe that it is necessary to somehow convince God that you are good enough to qualify.

    6) Instead, in spite of your personal feelings, you “feel” that you are simply dismissed and not validated, and told to “shut up” and get on with the task at hand.

    When I asked for you to elaborate on the above and to share your experience, you replied with the following. (Again paraphrased and not verbatim.)

    7) That the experience itself was like a moment of super consciousness, but that it has resulted in many negative impacts upon your life.

    8) That it is ever present and won’t go away, which I suspect has left you drained and also overwhelmed.

    9) You are left feeling that you as an individual are insignificant, and that the mission that has been bestowed upon you takes precedent, for it involves the whole of mankind.

    Have I understood what it is that you have said and feel correctly Steve?
    If not, could you please fill me in on the aspects where there was a break in communication.

    I’m looking forward to your reply.

    Be Blessed.

  92. Hi

    Just frustration and well worn intellectual paths, I apologise.
    1) Inconvenient thruth.
    2) It could have been ignored but it was a bit insistent. Like short of time.
    3) Like being given a problem to solve.
    5) Not really more a, seek and you will find. (and don’t screw up)
    6) Yes. Sort of ‘you may think this is useless but trust me it isn’t.’

    7-9) Yes. Overwhelmed. Drained? well I just rest.

    You see there is this tree and it keeps falling over. Read Read Read. Sorry I write too much. Don’t worry you have got months.

  93. David, Mart, Dr. Steve, how old are you? O, Never mind!

    – If you are 15 you are Dr. Smart Alec. Definitions: (1) somebody who makes an annoying show of knowing something or of being cleverer than others. (2) Someone who says clever or funny but rude things that annoy other people because they show a lack of respect. – Solution for this is: (1)Discipline. (2) Enroll in a good grooming school.

    – If you are 70+ you are Dr. Looney – You have brain fog.
    Brain fog may sound benign, but this is no fog that “comes on little cat feet.” Brain fog can be a crippling confusion or slowness that befuddles our most critical human organ, the brain. Worse yet, the causes of brain fog, though they seem to be multiplying, are little understood.

    – The way you write and argue it also seems like you are in between these two ages, then you have another problem. So get help before its too late – see a good MD., or ND., and definitely a good Bible Believing Christian.. who can help clear that fog and lead you into the right direction to Yahweh almighty.

  94. Re. Nag Hamadi – In the Indian language ‘nag’ means ‘serpent’ and in Egypt ‘hamadi’ means ‘praised’ – (The serpent is praised???) (Jes)

    The term “Hamaddi” actually comes from the last name of “Mahmoud Pasha Hammadi” who established the town to escape from the British occupation of the time. The area was originally called “Chenoboskion” but was renamed Nag Hammadi in honour of its new founder.
    The texts are referred to as the “Nag Hamaddi codices” since they were found, and rediscovered there in December 1945. (Alienated)

    Smart Alec. Definitions: (1) somebody who makes an annoying show of knowing something or of being cleverer than others. (Jes)

    Sometimes it is not that difficult.

    • Each Arabic and Hebrew name has meanings so look up for the definition of ‘Hamadi’ – well, don’t bother I did it for you – click and just scroll down: You can’t deny this because its not my site.
      http://www.dictionary30.com/meaning/HAMADI

      Smart Alec. Definitions: (1) somebody who makes an annoying show of knowing something or of being cleverer than others. (Jes? – No!) It’s Steve.
      Why? Take a look at all your comments above, not a single one makes sense. All you have been doing is bashing the Almighty God or portraying him as evil and a lot of nonsense. You do not understand the greatness of Yahweh at all. You do not want to even research to see who He really is but instead keep harping on the same broken strings over and over again. It’s annoying, it’s darn boring and a sheer waste of time. So just as Marianne quoted above I say the same thing.
      “If you do not want the truth about YHVH, then you are on the wrong website.”

      BTW, I really hate being mean but when someone blasphemes my God Yahweh, I can be more than mean for I can’t and never will allow it and that goes for you.

      Bye!!

  95. Hey Steve,

    I’m dropping down to the current end of the thread from your 2/23 11:46am post. Have not taken time to digest everything you said, but will later. I have to go do some stuff for a few hours.

    The thought that first comes to mind for you is: What exactly is the superiority of ‘Good’ over ‘Evil’, for both are clearly different – So what makes one more excellent than the other??

    I will reply later…

  96. Good comes from the “seek and ye shall find” and is not to do with material pleasure. Evil is to deceive and gain material pleasure. Many are not interested in Truth and just live for material pleasure. This is the Satan of ignorance of the Truth. Christ says look further and look deeper. If the Old testament was ‘enough’ to save us from Satan, so why did he come to save us and from what? Surely the old testament had given us all the knowledge of YHVH that we need?? or perhaps not. What did Christ have to add to the old testament?

  97. Steve,

    I thank you for answering my above questions, (though your answers were rather ambiguous).

    You appear to be very guarded, and lack the ability to be transparent. This could possibly be one of the reasons why you utilize various titles within your posts. This aspect of being guarded, then eliminates any possibility of placing yourself within a state of being vulnerable, which in turn affects ones ability to trust. The consequences of this are that the inability to trust affects each and everyone of your relationships. (The inability to have a true and sincere faith, both in people and in God.)

    Many people with this particular personality trait will utilize it as a defense mechanism, and will strike out at others to hurt them first, before the possibility arises that they themselves might be hurt. Ultimately, they end up leading rather solitary lives void of any truly intimate companionship.

    Unfortunately the catalyst that is the cause for many with this trait, is born from an actual, or perceived unresolved hurt. Which then, (while still maintaining its initial pain) manifests into anger, bitterness, and a variety of other short comings.

    I could expound far deeper on this topic, however it is suffice to say, “I am sorry that you have been hurt Steve.”

    The above was either the musings of a Smart Alec, or that of a rather accurate profiler. The answer could be determined by the number of your friends.

    In respects to your understanding of God’s overall plan, and that of Scripture, I don’t believe that you are Born Again. I don’t believe that you have the indwelling Spirit, (and that is the first time that I have expressed that to anybody here.) And I don’t believe that you even wish to know His TRUTH.
    Instead you wish to rely on that of your own knowledge, and Man, you are totally confused!

    So how is that working for ya?

    Signing Out.

    Be Blessed

  98. Thanks for the analysis. You do like your conclusions here don’t you. When you see the tree in the sky you will be embarrassed at your response, but not until. At present you feel confident in your conclusions about the world and your faith. I will not change that nor do I wish to take away your comfort, that is not my responsibility.

  99. Hey Steve,

    For discussion to be worth anything, it must be established that you ARE indeed speaking a completely different language than the four of us (Jes, alienated, Marianne, 45), because you have a DIFFERENT definition than we do for the following terms: 1) YHVH, 2) Christ, 3) Elohyim, 4) Satan, 5) Good, 6) Evil, 7) Truth, 8) Tree of Life, 9) Tree of Knowledge, and 10) salvation. Your semantic frame of reference is different from us at its very core, a completely different language. It is absolutely essential to remember there is a semantic chasm between you and us.

    Now with the above in mind, I’ve tried to isolate one simple point, temporarily putting on hold those conflicts. That one simple point is the question: “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?” This question was poorly answered by you with definitions for each side, but without an answer as to which was better and why… Please try to get more basic than this. [ think along the lines of: Why is material pleasure worse?? Why is ignorance of truth worse?? Who says?? Who cares?? Why is life better than death?? -or- Why is death better than life?? Why is anything better than nothing?? Or, why is nothing better than anything?? ] So try to give me a specific answer to the following question:

    “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?”

    You seem to personally feel a humanitarian burden to communicate knowledge, so your pointing out the advantage of ‘good over evil’, -or- ‘evil over good’ ought to be at the core of your message, else why should ANYONE listen to you? You feel obligated to sell a message. I want to know [ the bottom line ] of why you feel your message is any better than the rambling of the masses. I do NOT want to hear about the ignorance of other peoples viewpoints. I want YOU to articulate and creatively expound upon the virtue of either: Good -or- Evil …your choice whichever!

    I hope you reply, because you feel very burdened and I wish to listen to your passion [without the use of semantic jargon], and hopefully comprehend what you aspire to, at the end of your rainbow.

    • The short answer is that those in the book of life are inherently spiritual beings (hence being ‘born again’ is realising what you already are) But not all are spritual beings some really are just made of clay. So ‘Good’ for a spritual being is finding the truth of the Earth and its past and solving it. Now read below.

  100. OK The idea of sin was introduced by YHVH. Had he not said “do not eat of the tree of kbowledge” there would be no such thing as sin. IE if Eve had eaten of this tree without being told not to it would not have been a sin. So the concept of sin is ‘that which does not obey YHVH rule’. But the tree of knowledge is different (this idea of good and evil). If the knowledge can be used for a ‘constructive’ purpose it is called good if it is used for an indulgent and ultimately useless purpose it is called evil. So what is the definition of constructive? Well there is something that knowledge would help humanity find out IF used correctly (but cause chaos if used indulgently) It is clearly a powerful tree. So what is this thing that humanity could find out if they use knowledge constructively. Well IF you have all found Christ and been reborn they why has He not told you? Because you still believe in YHVH’s work. So here it is for free. The tree of knowledge and the tree of life are artificial constructions which have been imposed on Earth. The result? materialisation of a previously spiritual world. “Those who’s names were in the book of life at the creation of the world” ie BEFORE the world was created. You will not believe me but I KNOW this is true because it has been found (I think I was guided to it, don’t understand how). The artificial tree fails at the ‘end of the age’ (after a set time period) NOT because YHVH decides to destroy Satan and the satanists but because the tree cannot sustain itself for longer than the period of an age. YHVH told Noah to save him but he could not stop it and he cannot stop it happening again and again and again. That is man’s spritual task.

    I may have a different set of definitions but

    “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?

    Because one is useless and the other is the spiritual solution. But tell me… if you have all been ‘saved’ by YHVH then why did he not give you this knowledge? It’s almost like he did not want you to stop his creation/destruction cycle. Strange that isn’t it!

  101. “And YHVH (or the Powers) put a screen up in heaven to separate the waters above from the waters below”

    Indeed he did… it is not rocket science.

  102. Dr. Steve: “You will not believe me but I KNOW this is true because…”
    45: “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?”
    45: I hope you reply, because you feel very burdened and I wish to listen to your passion [without the use of semantic jargon], and hopefully comprehend what you aspire to, at the end of your rainbow.
    ================================================================
    Steve, your reply was with jargon and I am still awaiting you “to articulate and creatively expound upon the virtue of” One Polar attribute of Knowledge. I’m also still, eagerly waiting to hear of your personal ultimate aspiration.

    (1) “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?” Why is an equation’s solution any better than the intial unsolved question? Is the solution going to solve world hunger…? Make me sleep better at night…? Is the solution going to heal people, and if so then how? Is the solution going to get people to be nicer to one another and therefore dismiss interpersonal conflicts of wars, litigation, etc.? What pragmatic value is there to a “spiritual solution”.

    (2) I want to know “…what you aspire to, at the end of your rainbow.” ?
    ================================================================
    Hint at where I’m going:
    ===========================
    Much boils down to the question: What is the meaning of life? -or- [ I S ] there a meaning to life? Maybe I’m a plant that simply exists to multiply and die with absolutely no philosophical (spirituality included) purpose, which would mean there NEVER WAS a difference between good an evil in the first place because morality means nothing in the plant kingdom.
    ================================================================

  103. Is the solution going to solve world hunger?
    Yes
    What is the meaning of life?
    To solve that question.

    The problem IS solved. But not by faith but by intelligence. You can achieve anything you wish. The limit is in what you wish. you could make a fortune (Satan) or seek comfort (Faith) or save the world (Christ). You choose.

  104. morality means nothing in the plant kingdom

    Are you of clay (animal/plant) or are you of spirit. If you are of spirit (which you are otherwise you would not ask such questions) then how do you achieve your potential? Stuff the material world and go for it. The worst you can achieve is too not even try.

  105. I bet when Michael comes he can use the internet. Take care you seem like one of us. Don’t look for support from outside you won’t find any but who cares really🙂

  106. I can only conclude Steve that you are incapable of explaining WHY good is better than evil. I conclude that merely persuading others into agree must be the ultimate goal, because I see zero mention from you of virtue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue I conclude Steve that while you adhere to cyclic reincarnation of Creation, you have elusively avoided eastern religion’s answer to breaking of the cycle (Nirvana).

    I hear nothing from you offering a spiritually eclectic package, anywhere remotely close to as comprehensively explanatory, affectionately intimate, emotionally fulfilling, transcendently powerful, and clearly documentable as what I already possess. So, I now add a third (even more important) question for you Steve.
    ==================================================================
    (1) “In the choice between good and evil, why would either one ever be better than the other?”
    (2) I want to know “…what you aspire to, at the end of your rainbow.” ?
    (3) Why love? (noticeably and sadly absent from gnosis doctrine)

  107. See, if somehow by chance of fate you and I were somehow stranded and there were only provisional supplies sufficient for only one of us to live. If I willing chose to die for you (out of LOVE for you Steve) then it would mean NOTHING more than just a fact of history, tallied up to gnosis happenstance… a mere statistical anomaly on a cold piece of graph paper… So very sad, lonely, and cold.

  108. I think you are slightly missing the point. You are looking for highly elevated meaning and purpose. Why? If you wonder why … oh hang on you are a being of clay aren’t you. Sorry i cannot help you. don’t worry there are beings ahead of you that are solving the problem, you will benefit.

    • When those lords of liberation, the ascended masters come forth at the externalisation of the hierarchy to solve ‘THE PROBLEM’, you personally will get swept up Steve. You do not realise the magnitude of evil with which the hierarchy wants to shackle to your soul ….[.f.o.r.e.v.e.r.]…… You will beg a drop of water wondering; “How much longer before I die of thirst?” And you will cry out for knowledge to help you escape torment. And you will cry out for any to hear you, but none will have mercy year after year after year. And you will ponder in such emptiness how things could have EVER gone soo wrong to have caused you be in such an awful place… And after a long, long time has passed you will beg of YHVH to have mercy on you, and He WILL answer and remind you of your refusing to say “Yes” to Charitable Love in February of 2012. Please think through very carefully the serious GRAVITY of what it means to ‘take for granted’ your Creator, opposing YHVH’s generous side! If He has the power to create, heal, and promote, does He not also have the power to injure, demote, and destroy? I do not know how old you are Steve, but how can anyone stand up to their Creator and accuse Him of being impatient after He has waited 20+ years for such a one to stop fighting with Him? Please stop fighting Him, for He has kept you alive this long because He wants you Steve to live with him forever, but this business of opposing Him must stop, before you provoke him to wrathfully cut you off from his protection.

      I believe Steve, that things have NOT always been the best for you. There is much evil in the world. My life has also been hard in many ways. But I tell you the truth here and now, YHVH is the epitome of Charitable Love. I’m not trying to get brownie points from Him in saying such. He already knows what He is WITHOUT my help. I say it without ego, just stating a fact that He chooses to clay vessels like me to testify of His character to other clay vessels like you. YHVH is worth serving Steve, and so much more. Please reconsider Him as being truly good. Talk to him Steve. He hears. He is always listening. There was a time when I did not believe this, but I changed. The Book of Life is not a book of recycled (reincarnated) souls. It’s a one lifetime shot at it to get right with YHVH and that’s it, period. Its length varies from person to person, but there is ONLY one lifetime. Choose wrong Steve, and you WILL NOT get a second chance after your current body hits the grave.

      Today Steve, you have a February 2012 window of opportunity for free choice to either:
      (1) highly esteem the excellent virtue of Love (Charitable Love) -or-
      (2) by default obtain the everlasting consciousness WITHOUT Love (Charitable Love).

      Say no, and the window closes without your touching it. It is my prayer that my YHVH grant you wisdom to choose the better of the two, and soon before the silver cord of your current life snaps, thus sealing your eternal destination.

  109. Steve

    So, If I said to my children don’t touch this, it is medicine and it could kill you.

    Is the understanding that you know you are not in the book and are only of clay but have the desire to know that master of our life?

    If you are speaking of God the creator and you know nothing about good and evil and you do not know the choice, I would say you are toast.

    Occuring to you if I told the children about the medicine I would be a murder based on your anologies, not a protective Mother.

    God said satan was a murder first and then he also called him the father of all lies. He said he cometh but to kill steal and destroy. He is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.

    Some people who consider themselves wise, are confused by the word of God. You maybe an inoccent trying to find your way. If you are I am not sure how you became a doubting Thomas, or accoding to the word a double minded man? “The difference between good and evil.” Sounds like satan arguing in the supreme court?

    Does anyone in your family have roots in Judeo or Christian faith?

    If you have joined a chrislam or hinduism or any other church not founded upon God and the living Word, you are spiritually dead. If you are a part of any of these lying deceitful ways then you should denouce the faith of it. How can you have faith in what is dead?

    A man without faith can pray all day but without the living word and the saviors spirit in you, you are without life. You are full of darkness and are a glass that dwindles in darkness.

    If you knew God you would know of his miracles, of his desire to walk with those who love and seek after him.

    If I were you whatever you have involved yourself in, I would take my name off of the roles. If you have a spouse and children do the same. You are as if a person who has become possessed.

    A young man I have been praying with for this past year. Grew up in a home where his father got into meditating and he became possessed, as his guru told him what to do. It took him also right into hell. Very educated but without any common sense, he became a dark vessel. Where no light is nothing of value grows. He killed himself. You are playing games with wickedness. The wickedness that hangs with some unbelivers is so great that when you come to the site you feel the attack of their demons that are left behind by these non-believers. A sanctified believer has a spirit that can discern if a person has God or not.

    I am greatful that greater is he that is in me, than he that is in the world. The enemy has a little power as the word says and to overcome him as Jesus Christ did we must resist him and submit ourselves to God and he provides his protection. He is everything but evil. All good that has come has come unto all because of him. He does not have to repent as he is the “Great I AM”, but if it were common man in our thinking we would have wondered by his creation. But his love shines so brightly and his ability to forgive when we fail is without shaming or without question
    as long as we repent and come home.

    The thing is going home before it is to late.

    When you give the enemy grounds to your soil you have errored, not God the creator. The word is free to all who will receive. Your heart is soil, your faith is in his word. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. If you neglect it and don’t study it or you throw it over for some non-sense then you will surely see the lake of fire. It is not me being judgemental it is not God being evil. It is a promise for all in his living words, they are promises, you can take them to a bank and cash them. But you must believe.

    Having education and being a Dr. of anything is no reason to speak of the Creator the way you do.

    Are you unable to see that sin came by the enemy who told the lie to Eve and he more then likely vexed Adam that Adam did nothing. This is conjecture on my part from reading and studying the word. Who vexed the Galations? Who has vexed you? Reading a book can bring life or death. The bible brings and renews life daily, and the words of books of the followers of the vexed one who vexs does the same. Educate yourself on something worth reading, don’t just read understand. Don’t pick it apart, pray for understanding and then read. You can then become a master builder instead of a wrecking ball. God has condemned him to hell, he surely wants company but why do you want to go with him. Separate yourself, that you maybe saved.

    I do know since some of the faiths mixed themselves with islam, there are many sick word wise about the truth of the Lord and he did it all. But you have to be willing to recieve and to do so you must understand. It is alot like the picutres of the 80’s where a second picture was inside
    underneath. Not everyone would look or was able to see. The Rabbis’ say the greatest of knowledge is where depth is. Depth is in the second or even the third layer. The Second layer is revealed by the number of times the same word is revealed. A word used 7 times in a scripture helps to provide the true value in the understanding of the nugget, and so on.

    Some Israelitesstill do not accept Jesus Christ and they are not this confused. When the light goes on for them they understand all and see the things that are conceled in the Old Testament through the revelation of the New. They have the ability to look at the meat and come off the milk.

    The even sadder thing is when you know the word then you must know him and that means meeting him in spriit and in truth. You must seek him like a child seeks after a freind in hide and go seek. He will reveal himself he will put part of himself in you and part of you will enter into him. You will be a cloud following you by day and then the enemy will come and continue to come and to test you and you will have tribuation but you are an instrument without notes to make music.

    You will gain a peace that is not able to be explained if you find him, you will be long suffering of others resistance to the good to get somone on the right narrow path, able to see the simple things that have been taken for granted as utitility. God did notihing for the sole purpose of utility all things are for purpose and plan.

    If you destroy your soil where the seed goes, nothing will sprout as you are in the wrong light where nothing can grow. God is all positive matter and the enemy is all negatives. We are made in his image, and when we die we are a vapor.

    All I hear is the negativity of many who have sceintific backgrounds, sometimes you have to look back at your histroy in order to move forward. If you are trying to learn then you can be helped, but if you are trying to instruct in the wisdom of some gurus’ false doctrine or teachings of the things of this world. Then you are lost. Gods children don’t seek after him or his knowledge in this world. Why do you stay? Do you think there is soil here for you?

    For you to learn about him and who he is and all of him, is really no different then trying to learn about you. If you write and are not a liar, you are a Male, you are a Dr. of something, you are a soul, you are a spirit, you are a body, you are searching for something and so on.
    Much about you is not revealed to us but to him you are laid open like a book. Nothing is hidden from him, he has records on everyone. the Angels have not given the Lambs book of Life to anyone!!!!

    You really do not have any idea of who God is?

    However if a sinner comes to him and repents and turns to salvation and continues in him. He will cast your sins into outer darkness, never to be remembered again. He does not care about you the scientist (or whatever you are), he cares about Steve the soul. He wants you to be saved, to be a part of his kingdom and family.

    He is not giving out virgins to entice men to heaven, he is giving himself and his life to the believer for an eternity to worship with him to live in peace and to have no sorrow but total surrender and happiness. The icing is his promises to you also while you are here on earth, if you believe and follow him. Those who have him, have the fruit of him in their spirit. Their fruit is Love, Joy, peace. long suffering and so on, but we do not suffer people litely who slam the “Great I AM” or any part of who he is. The thing every seeker is looking for is in him!

    What you are looking for it is in him! Seek the Father, knock ask in the name of Jesus Christ and the door will be open unto you. He gives wisdom to those who ask liberally.

    The Bible is written so the least can understand, sometimes this is confusing to those who call themselves wise. He is no different. When you do not understand the best thing to do is to dumb it down a bit in order to comprehend. Regarding the word it is best to pray and fast and then study when you are coming out of the darkness and trying to enter the light.

    You are looking in my opinion for second and third layers of understanding but you do not have the basics of the word. This is as if you wanted to go for your PHD without your masters. There is greater understanding being revealed daily about him but it comes to those who walk with him. Knowledge is increasing to and fro in the earth as promised. We have discovered and identified all of the genes in the human body. But this knowledge will not take us closer to God.

    Some knowledge moves people further from God. The other side of the knowledge is there is logos and rhema word and the added word is being revealed now as we enter the last days. “I AM” is speaking to people more and revealing things that some have wondered about with the coming of the end but all things according to his plan and purpose not ours. It is his game, his Kingdom, his choice, he chooses. He knows the truth about each of us that we are selves know not. So a realtionship with God is Trusting him and above all loving him even in the midst of the storm and when we understand not. Sometimes he gets silent and we udnerstand not but he does and in all things he teaches us but we must be willing to go through and to be his servants knowing he is the master.

    The Bible says; the ones who are receiving reveled words the righteous, elect, saints. They are the followers today as they were when Jesus Christ walked on the face of the earth,

    The prayers of a righteous man availeth much to the Father. The words of a man full of pride must go before distruction and a haughty look before a fall.

    You have to get into the light before you can go where you want, God will let you continure in circles if you do not acknowledge who he is and get out of your head that he is anything to do with the evil one. God did not create sin, he does not do evil to anyone.

    When you seek in the wrong places for revelation about the Lord instead of in a church or in the living word you destroy the seed of faith or maybe I should say you make it to be hidden from you. God gave to you, to all of us a certain measure of it. Without it you can not believe. You must find your seed first within, then you will you beable to seek and knock and the answers you look for will be open.

    There is no short cut around God to learning of him and what he has. that is a method of learning in higher education and in pagan occult systems, not the Kingdom of God. The children of the world have tried this forever, you can have a wonderful life here, living in a mansion with all luxury. When you are dead it goes to the one who did not earn and it is scoundered. Do you have true joy and peace, or do you worry for taking care of the things of this world. Like worrying for assurance against the withereing grass that one day you thinking not even if hell, what lies on the otherside?

    The enemy wants people to believe anything but that he exsist and that there is a hell. The things of the world are temporary and the things of God is forever and they do not rust, tarnish, or ever grow old, or sad, nor do they ever enter into the darkness again as they are of the light.

    Your heart ears of hearing have been closed, your storage shed on your mental hard drive has been corrupted and you have a virus and I think you are trying to find yourself and are having a problem coming out of the dark. You are a man looking for direction trying to point out all of these faults as you are about to find that the junk you thought is all wrong.

    Open your hearing, read and study the word, chew on it. Then your soil will start to heal because the word has life, it gives second and third chances to people who have been bitter and for all purposes dead.

    In your current condition you can not even accept milk, you are like a baby with an allergy to milk. Your electro system is messed up, you surely have to much of the minerals that bring wrong thinking. Spending time in the camp of the enemy will do this to you. Demons drain the sources of life from a person. You need prayer and others to pray with you that you eyes be opened to receive, or you will strangle on milk as you are doing. It is not the word it is the power you are giving the anti chirst with your words and the goodness God put within you. it is like being a whore and giving away your most sacred part to a man who just wants to defile you to take your positive energy and destroy you. You are not even trying to come against him.

    To simplify what I am hearing in your doctrinal thoughts, it sound like the confusion a child. You give him milk both regular and chocolate. when he is about two he thinks the chocolate comes from the brown cows and the regular milk comes from the white cows.

    You look and you see the sky but you think the Lord is a schlep, a coniver, a con artist?

    Since he lets all who know him, to also know that he also goes by “I AM” to those who have no understanding. This alone should tell you something.

    If you have been taken over by the serpant then why do you come? I think you are fighting back to get understanding and if you tell me that I will pray for you continually until God helps you to come out. But if that is not your issue why are you here?

    I have written some scriptures for you to read. They will give you an understanding of Gods thoughts about a person who has flawed thinking and how true believers are to respond to such.

    Yes there is a book of Life and yes, it has the saints or the believers names in it. The word speaks of those who come in the last days who are false prophets. I don’t know you but your thinking is not in sink with the Living word of God. You act as if our Creator, Lord and Savior and the spirit of the Holy Ghost have no power and that they are a scheme?

    Read these words: Timothy 3:5 Having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof : from such turn away.

    Matthew 7:15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ferious wolves.

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brother, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

    Timothy 3:6 For of this sort are they who creep into houses, and lead silly women laden with sins, lead away with lead away with various lusts.

    Hebrew 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

  110. I read some of this before my eyes warned about too much reading on line. One thing I noted was that someone (not Jes) said that the Catholics are the same as the ancient Motherboard religion which embraces all other religions, and is therefore not true to Christ, who is our sole savior. I have experienced several Catholic parishes in my life (ten or more) and I have found that some of them are true preachers of the gospel of Christ. Others have slipped into the modern New Age inclination to see God in all religions and eventually even giving up on God in favor of man (one catalog I read for a “Master’s of Divinity” at a Catholic university did not once mention God, or Christ). One parish was into the “occult”. But more than half of the parishes preached the gospel whole. I have also been part of numerous Protestant parishes, both evangelical and mainline. Some of these were better than others….but all churches eventually fall short of the glory of God, who alone must come into the heart of each believer.

    I have also attended many far eastern groups and meditated in the eastern manner for years, and came to the emptiness of that. I would not recommend one single “Eastern” group.

    Just checking in to say I don’t think all Catholics are off base. I am thinking of attending a Catholic church again because my mainline church is now falling at last into apostasy. But mainly I seek God to come rescue us directly. And the sooner the better, because not only are we suffering worldwide, but we are teetering on the edge of apostasy, and must pray God to keep us on the straight and narrow, which must always start in front of your own feet.

    • Hi Mariel, I didn’t get a moment to respond until now. As I want to give you a proper understanding this might have to be split in 2-Pages but please read it.
      (1) You quoted: …. {{One thing I noted was that someone (not Jes) said that the Catholics are the same as the ancient Motherboard religion which embraces all other religions, and is therefore not true to Christ, who is our sole savior….}}
      Me: Well, it’s me Jes, BUT No, that’s not exactly what I wrote if you read again you will see that I wrote — ((“this religion you are into is ecumenical no different from the “Catholic Religious System” of which “Hinduism is the Mother Board” (very ancient) that was started by the Nephillim the demon angels …..)) (a) There’s a difference between Catholics and Catholicism. While Catholicism is a religious & political system, the Catholics are only people who follow Catholicism unaware of how this system works. (b) About Hinduism, it is true. If you read a good Hebrew Translation Bible carefully, you will see that even Abraham’s household were idol worshipers and these idols were of demon beings or extraterrestrials. I hate posting this link here but want you to see what these beings really look like. http://scriptures.ru/india/murtis/indexen.htm – They are considered gods by worshipers but certainly has no connection with YAHWEH THE TRUE CREATOR who is the SET-APART ONE. … Though Abraham’s family were idolaters yet he was searching for the true God and Yahweh saw his heart and called him out of idolatry, Abraham listened and left his household to serve YAHWEH – long history short that is how we have the Israelites, The Torah/Bible, Messiah Yeshuah and His Salvation today.
      (2) You quoted: …. {{I am thinking of attending a Catholic church again because my mainline church is now falling at last into apostasy………..
      Me: Mariel, what I see is “your love for God & you are searching for HIM” but you are searching in all the wrong places. You can say ‘it’s none of her business to tell me this’ but I have to, because as a follower of Yeshuah(Jesus) I am commanded by the Torah to proclaim the truth and so I am concerned for the souls of the lost and I can clearly sense your confusion. “If you do not follow the Torah, you are lost my dear for eternity,” if you truly love Yeshuah(Jesus) then listen to HIS words – [[Matthew 5:20 “For I say to you, that unless your righteousness (true Torah observance) exceeds the righteousness (oral traditions teachings) of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.]] Also the Seven Feasts of YAHWEH which includes the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) is to be followed according to how YAHWEH commanded and not on Sunday or any other day nor can another day be substituted, for these Seven Feasts are the Appointments with YAHWEH. For observing these feasts, you have to keep a watch on the Hebrew Calendar as the dates and days differ from the world calendar. This is not difficult.
      I agree when you say that churches have become apostate but entering into other religions is even worse. When YAHWEH created human beings, HE did so to have a RELATIONSHIP with them – NOT A RELIGION. Think about it; we do not have a RELIGION with our parents or siblings, our relatives, our friends and acquaintances but we have a RELATIONSHIP with them, so why must we have a RELIGION with YAHWEH when HE did not make it. All religions are man-made – an abomination in the eyes of the Almighty YAHWEH. The only way to get into the Truth and on the road of RIGHTEOUSNESS is to study a good translation of the TORAH/Bible. Going back to Catholicism will not help you achieve eternal life … YAHWEH is calling people out of all religions “Revelation 18:4 …’And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.’” who is her? It is the Babylonian System Rev.17&18 Mystery Babylon, the Whore, mother of harlots, strong words indeed coming from the mouth of the True Creator. Must read: http://www.redmoonrising.com/MysteryBabylonLW.htmhttp://www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com/page51.htm Most people are backward to tell you what YAHWEH says – But YAHWEH says those who do not follow TORAH will go to Gei-Hinnom (Hell). I am writing this because if I do not warn you I will go to hell for it [[Ezekiel 3:17: “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me:” Ezekiel’s mission was to “hear” what YAHWEH told him, and “warn” the people of YAHWEH to follow His Word.]] — I certainly don’t want to be separated for eternity from my Beloved Yeshuah Yahweh!! http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/articles/PDFs/Gei-Hinnom-Hell%20In%20Torah%209-2-06.pdf
      Continued on Page …2

      • ((Page ….2 )) – Next, Catholicism is about sun-god worship – NOT the worship of Yeshuah(Jesus Christ) of Nazareth. The Mary that Catholics worship is not the Mother of Yeshua(Jesus) but the “queen-of-heaven” spoken about in Jeremiah 7:18 and elsewhere in Jeremiah is “SEMIRAMIS the wife of Nimrod-antichrist of that era.” (Read “The Two Babylons” http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/ ) The Jesus that Catholics worship is TAMMUZ the son of Nimrod & Semiramis Read [[Ezekiel chapter 8:]] YAHWEH forbids sun-god worship, [[Deuteronomy 17:3 “who has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, either the sun or moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded….17.4 If it is true then …. 17:5 then you shall bring forth that man or that woman, who has done this evil thing, to your gates, even the man or the woman; and you shall stone them to death with stones.]] You see here how strict YAHWEH is – Jesus did not change these laws they still apply – though this kind of punishment by death is not carried out today by Jew & Christians yet there is no doubt that it will bring spiritual death if you partake in the worship of such religions.
        The god of the Catholics is not the true God of Israel. You really want to go back to Catholicism? You may want to think not twice but hundreds of times after reading the articles on this link and the rest below http://ivarfjeld.wordpress.com/tag/catholic/ …… Roman Catholicism began with the very beginnings of the Christian movement. An essential component of the definition of any one of the other branches of Christendom, moreover, is the examination of its relation to Roman Catholicism: How did Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism come into schism? Was the break between the Church of England and Rome inevitable? Conversely, such questions are essential to the definition of Roman Catholicism itself, even to a definition that adheres strictly to the official view, according to which the Roman Catholic Church has maintained an unbroken continuity since the days of the Apostles, while all other denominations, from the ancient Copts to the latest storefront church, are deviations from it. Please read more here: http://history-world.org/a_history_of_the_catholic_church.htm
        Mariel, please do not think that I have written all this to attack you or other Catholics, Not at all, for I do understand that there are majority of very devout Catholics and others folks of different religions around the world who love God dearly but sadly are lost as they are unaware that they are worshiping the wrong god. This is not acceptable by the True Creator for HE has given all mankind Intelligence, Wisdom Knowledge, Understanding and Discernment – Read[Proverbs 2]] and we must to use it. We have to search HIM and we will find HIM. [[Deuteronomy 4:29 But from there you shall seek Yahweh your God, and you shall find him, when you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.]] Frankly, I am doing my best to lead people to the true SAVIOR YESHUA MESSIAH (Jesus) that they may enjoy Heaven with Him for eternity. Check the correct names of God here: http://www.therefinersfire.org/yeshua_not_christian.htm – For a good Ministry and teaching check this out: http://vimeo.com/37457187 & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7k0_IX3Roo&feature=related If you need more help please respond here. Be Blessed in Yeshua and Shalom!!

        • Mariel, just a slight correction – Nimrod had already died so Tammuz was not the son of Nimrod but the son of Samiramis out of fornication.. Please read so you understand the ancient/medieval history, prophecies, and the coming tribulation times.
          Be Blessed.

  111. May Jesus Christ bless you all. When what is concealed is revealed let it fall. Paradise is girt with fire, probably constantly turning blades of fire.

  112. Mariel

    We have seen the beginnings of the falling away as spoken of in the Bible, but I think there is still maybe more. I would like to give you my two cents and share with you some things that God recently revealed while in prayer or studying his word.

    I think a catastrophe may have to come to bring people back to there knees. We for sure need the latter day rain in the USA. Some say it has already happened. I don’t think I agree. The Bible says in the last days not to forsake the assembling of yourselves. People need God.

    But I also think that many are having problems praying and feeling anything.

    You must beable to enter into his place if you are to receive relieve and answer to prayer. The issue is why is there so much apostacy?

    I answer prayer request and I read recently where a man wrote he had been a satanic worshipper, but turned away and found God. He said those involved in this form of worship are also involved in witchcraft and who knows what else. Evidently they pray to the enemy like we pray to God. Thinking about it all of these so called Gods are just the spriit of the enemey on the other end of the prayer.

    He said they are doing some form of ritual to put up some type of heaviness over the sky to stop the pentration of prayers into the third heaven. Did you ever notice at a time of prayer how the air would be lighter? He also said when people did pray in the spirit that they penetrated the ceiling of this fog like rock and it opened a hole in the sky. It made me think of jacob who saw the Angels acending and desending from the heavens through a hole in the sky on a ladder.

    It makes you think of the veil in the old testament when man could not enter into the presense of God. He said when it opened it was as though a pillar of light was over the person for the whole day until the night. This sheds a hole new light on if it is the apostacy spoken of that must come before he comes. In other word could this type of thing with other things becausing so many to fall away in all Christ faith church.

    I know God has all power. I am not sure if that is possible but last week when praying why a little boy was not getting healed and since the healing did not come forth he had to have a colostomy. I ask the Lord why in prayer, as I was greatly troubled in my spriit by this. A baby or a child this small is pure. So it is surely not sin, but it was found to be a birth defect. I heard these words in the spirit, “in the spirit or the spirit”. I knew or felt that what was being said is that prayers are being hindered becasue the prayers are not in the spirit. In other words we can pray out of our mouth solely and it is the body praying, but out of our soul is our spirit. When we pray in the spirit, you feel the lightness of the air, peace, after you have broken through in the spirit. I am sure you know what i mean. To get to the spirit you must feel that brokeness spoken of in the word. It seems that we we were maybe able to be heard in the body in the past but in this time not.

    I need to do more research as I am not certain if Revelation or any of the other conceling books of the old speak of a time when the Heavens will be shut up or where the enemy will beable to block or hinder prayers. Do you know what I am speaking?

    Maybe what the born again man from the evil had to say has truth, we know these are the last days and we are told they will be the worse. But we all also know the scriptures where Jesus Christ went to the garden to pray and when he did, he prayed in agony and he cried and he had great drops of sweat that was as blood and it fell upon the ground.

    We know that he said that the bulls of Bashan encompassed him. I believe he is speaking of evil men, who I believe were worshippers of baal. This is not the only place this is mentioned but the pagan ways to me seem to be the emphasis in these words. Can you comment on this?

    I don’t think that there is any one church that is falling away but it is all where people have just stopped going. Many say it is because all the church cares about these days is money and the shepherds for themselves and the word does speak clearly of these issues at this time. Our nation needs the latter day rain so that the people will return to the houses of God, before it is to late.

    We know Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and also the example we are to follow in all things. So if we would all start to be conscience of
    not praying in the body, but instead to pressing in through the spirit as the Lord did in earnest and as someone in brokeness. In other words we all pray every day but have we all been praying in the spirit every day. I know I have not. Now I have be come conscience of it and testified about it the other night. God wants us to get through he wants our prayers to be answered, as he said he would have it that none would persih. Think if you could get all of the houses of God know matter the name of it, we could turn things around in our nation.

    None of us are better than another, we all can press in and go to where the blood is for released answers to our prayers. When we pray for others the answers should still come according to the word if we believe and have faith. The Apostles prayed and the demon did not come out of the little boy and Jesus had to pray. When the Apostles ask why, he said unbelive and sometimes this type come out by fasting alone.

    We war against spirits of wickedness daily and some time we are going to fail in this flesh and thank God we have the Father. But when we pray and reach the mercy seat we get relieve for ourselves and the ones we are requesting prayer.

    One of the ladies at church Wed. when I spoke about it said that we should pray for ourselves first before we pray for others. I think this is right. I always thought this was selfish to pray for yourself first but this week I was attacked after praying against a spirit attacking two men who had requested prayer. The spirit that attacked was the same spirit attacking both. I could not figure out why, but after she spoke and I chewed around on her word. I knew it was a message for me as I am a prayer warrior for the Kingdom of Heaven. I also recently discovered in the spirit , that we must enter in praise to him. Thanking him for the Holy Spirit that lead and guides us, for his Word that is life and living and for all that he does for us all the time when we never so much as give it a thought. Then we are to make our petition known and then to speak the words of truth from the Bible that says this prayer is a promise in the word, Ie healing, the words “by his stipes we are healed” are our healing guarantee, they are also the word seeds to put in the petition as our faith. The word says faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So they should be incorporated into the petition we hear them and that puts faith as a seed in the petition. The battle not ours but it belongs to the Lord, this is what he says. He said; “it is finished” as his last words on the cross. Knowing these things help us to know how to get all prayers answered if they are under the will of God. I line up what he has said as his will.

    I never heard any of these preached in my life that I remember but they are Bible. Maybe they will not edify you but I hope someone reading will be.

    I know the word that sister gave to me about praying for yourself first was so right as it gave me understanding as why I was attacked after praying for two who were fighting the same spiritual demon. I had no desire to pray the next day. I felt a heaviness when I did pray. I had to press in with force and get beyond the wickedness of the sprit to move into the trown room of grace, where God broke it off of me and i began to weep and was spiritually restored.

    I believe are also suffering in their prayer life because of the things going on here in our nation that is causing a heavy atmosphere. Our nation was founded on a covenant with God for freedom of man and his rights to worship God. I believe any who are under the blood covenant and a nation under a covenant pledge and who made a structure of God belief are blessed and covered by either idividually the blood or nationally by the hand of God. i says this as Revelations speaks of the nations being judged and having to give answer.

    Our nation keeps removing all things that made our nation to have a covenant protection of prosperity and safety. This week they took out of one of the military groups ( I think the airforce but not certain), it had a slogan which it operated under, it said several words and then said to defend with the money God has provided and now says to defend with the money someone has provided. These things are the things that blessed us, his name was upon our standards in all aspects ie constitution, prayer out of school, pledge to aligions of our nations flag and so on. Because of these things we never fell into another nations being able to dominate or to control us. God kept our nation free, as his name was on. Now there are those from middle eastern countries and those of the new world order who have a desire to see all things open to openess with out boundries. We never knew the strife of other nations until we started to take on the ways of other worlds within our own boarders.

    Unfortunately something worse then 911 will more than likely happen for God to get the attention of the decedants of the roots that founded this great nation. As missed up as we are, there is no other nation that can compare. I had hoped that prayer would have changed things from my dream about DC but only God knows.

    Now March 5th is coming. Bolton says he expects the outcome of the meeting between the Pres. and Benjamin Netanyahu to be less than good. We will see what the outcome will be. The word says to pray for our leaders and the those in charge. I keep praying.

  113. Dr. Steve
    In answer to your question about paradise having blades of grass on fire!
    This is inacurate as the word teachs us whatever is under the control of
    the Father is walled in by fire. Since paradise is his and no man can pass
    to there from a living body, but the wicked try to enter where they can not go it is surrounded by a wall of fire.

    Just like everyone will soon find out about Israel it is surrounded by a wall of fire. A new world order is trying to come. It is a part of the anti-christ system and they would like to take hoses and spray out the fire to stop God where ever he is. But where ever there are believers praying and pleading the blood and earnestly seeking God they will find him and recieve their answer.

    Regarding your thoughts on Jesus Christ blessing us! He being of the root that comes out of the linage of Abraham he did already bless all believers.
    Not only did he bless those who believe, but he took every curse that would go to us upoon himself that we can not be cursed.

    Believing with its fullness only provides all deliverance in all things. We may live in the world but we are not of the world, we are of the Kingdom to
    come the New Jerusalem. We may suffer trials and tribulations but we are overcomes for he who is in us overcame the world and as he said so shall we.

    What you need and what you are missing is getting on the striaght and narrow path that leads to the straight and narrow gate. If you are looking for paradise then you are really looking for the New Jerusalem. You can find God in your home getting on your knees and confessing your sins to repentance and turning away from wrong doing and thinking, and he will be faithful to forgive with one condition. You also must say and declare that you believe in Jesus Christ, Knowing that he is the Lord of lords and the King of kings, that he died on the cross for your sins and that he took your sins upon himself when you confess and that you know he after dying on the cross arose in three days from the grave, that he was born of a virgin and that today he is seated at the right hand of God. Then you need to find a church of all truths. Meaning that they know that a man must be born again of the water and the spirit. if they know these things then they should be a Jesus name church.

    This is the only door that can open and lead you or any of us to peace, Because by him is the way, the truth and the life and no man come into the Father but by the name of Jesus Christ. Truth does not require twisting of the word, as it is the light beneath your feed for the narrow path and when you become saved it is the Holy Ghost that indwells you to the teaching, guiding and righteousness.

    My hopes for you are for you to put down the things of the antichrist and take up your cross and find God and his love through salvation.

  114. You need to read more carefully. I did not say blades of grass, I said blades of fire. It was a reference to the tree of life. Paradise is girt (surrounded) by fire not Israel.

    You write a lot but you do not understand what you read.
    Whatever is under the control of the Father is walled in by fire.

  115. “why is there so much apostacy?”

    Now that IS a good question. I don’t know.

  116. Maybe this is why

    http://littlebitsofinfo.blogspot.com/2012/02/pope-says-jesus-not-messiah.html?utm_source=BP_recent

  117. Just back from the mountain trip. I was told that there are two creators. Creator of the material world and the Creator of the spirit. Now it’s up to you to choose.

    Fairwell.

    • Ahh! yes the “good” fallen angels and the “evil” fallen angels, The problem is they are both Fallen. In the words those 1970’s philosophers with the big hair, “Welcome to the grand illusion”. I choose The one creator God, who in the beginning “was” and now and forever “Is”, The Existant One, who created the angels before material time began. “for many will come in my name saying I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray” What better way to deceive than to appear to be the saviour. In 2 thessolonians it says that the “man of lawlessness” must first be revealed, well if in order to have an aparent saviour you must have an apparent enemy. Thus your creator duality. Better call Optimus Prime before its too late.!!

      Those who know the Truth, know and understand how God will come, and it won’t be pretty for those who deny him.

      If ya don’t believe me, all you have to do is look at our polital elections. we are constantly forced to choose between the lesser of two evils, as the saying goes. The problem is the lesser one gets away with more murder, because their facade is better. But they are all working for the same “person”.

      • Good fallen angels?

        What’s the Scripture please, would appreciate it. Thanks

        Ahh! yes the “good” fallen angels and the “evil” fallen angels, The problem is they are both Fallen.

        • Hi Jes,
          The book of Enoch.
          I do not think I have interacted with you before so forgive me if i do not always put in citations. Any way, in the Book of Enoch, some of the fallen angels repented, and enoch plead their case in front of Yahweh. They were punished nonetheless.
          My point, however, is that many a man has come appearing as a saviour, only to turn into a tyrant. As satan wants to proclaim himself as God then it makes logical sense that he will oust an inept leader(s), and cover his tracks with a benevolent front. These are Just my thoughts on how these end time scenarios play out.

          • Hi dru,
            Interesting point. I read the book of Enoch but may be I missed something – must read it again. Thanks, appreciate it.

            • Hi dru, now this is going to confuse you my user names get switched sometimes from one blog to the other – what a mess Lol!. Bethany is the same as Jes so now you all know my real name🙂

              Shalom

              • Bethany/ jes
                My real name is david, and no not the other one on this page. I suspect half the commentators here use a pseudonymn. Mine was based on three random letters that sounded like a name, yet distinct so that others would not confuse me with other david’s on the sight. Your “secret” is safe with me!!!???

                peace to you as well.

                • Hi dru,
                  Thanks for the confirmation, don’t get me wrong but I thought you were a girl🙂 – I like the name David particularly King David and the story of his life is soul touching i.e. his birth etc.. Anyways, I’ll stick with username ‘Jes’ as it’s part of my grandma’s name who I loved very much and to avoid confusion. It’s just that I visit other blogs on wordpress and sometimes it does a switch of the different usernames and emails. However, it doesn’t matter, the important thing for me is that I pick up little points from comments and then do research which helps a lot in my study e.g. the ‘good fallen angels’ I’m going to read the bk of Enoch this weekend maybe I’ll find something more that I had missed before, thanks again.
                  Blessings
                  Jes

    • there is only one Creator, and he made everything

      • Just read this page… had to skip some further down. WAAAY too much info for my brain to comprehend at this moment. Scary, funny and extremely confusing… thank you all for a great read and a few giggles in between screams.🙂
        Wow… Still in information overload.

  118. OH My. My mistake. I scrolled back up and read some more. I am officially going to ban myself from reading this page. Sadly, I get the feeling that I will break that ban. *shivers*
    I am of extremely simple mind. I speak my thoughts (bad I know) as I learn. For some unknown reason it helps solidify what I am taught. Sadly, I have confused my extremely simple mind with very different views from here… Help Marianne!! I can’t help but read it!! Bah!

    • Don’t worry read all, minus the New Age jargon from Robert, David, Mart and Dr. Steve … Lol! That will boggle your mind🙂

    • hi lisa

      Did I confuse you or someone else.? 🙂

      Don’t worry, it all comes down to jesus….and that part is simple.

  119. Hi Marianne,

    You rock. Thank you for being here!!❤ Must go finish cleaning the kitchen… then I shall return to shock myself yet again.

    Jes,
    The new age stuff is where (if I wore them) I needed a new diaper. TMI and complete sarcasm, I know. But quite frankly, so was all of that info. Whoa! Then the other stuff to throw me for a loop. Here's my thoughts. God knows. He is good. He will let those that desire to truly know Him KNOW HIM. No matter what "stuff" is tossed in their way.
    Thank God HE is God.

  120. Sorry everyone if the transformers reference went over everyones head. I Just watched the second movie last week (Rise of the fallen) and it has kind of stuck in my head. Optimus is dealt a mortal blow, and then these ancient Autobots bring him back to life, and he rescues the world from the “bad” guys who are out to destroy the sun. I am really curious to see if part three goes where I think it will go?
    If you know what I mean?

  121. “there is only one Creator, and he made everything”

    Then break up a stone until you find spirit.

  122. Dr. Steve,
    1.”In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
    2. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep”

    So here we have God creating The Material, and In verses11-31, The living things (spiritual)

    Now chapter 2 we begin with the story of Man. Thus the change in perspective to “Lord God”. This is not another God, as you claim. What we have here in chapter two is a switch from the introduction, to the story of Man and his relationship with God. This is a common literary tool, introducing us to the setting of the book, and then to the characters. If you have read any books you would see this.

    Soon there after, we are introduced to the conflict of the Book, namely, sin. What is that sin? Pride: Man trying to be God. The creature trying to be greater than the creator. Your need for there to be a second God is based on your need to worship creation instead of the Creator. This is idolotry. Jesus said you cannot have two masters. You either serve God or you serve yourself. You are serving yourself in your worship of creation over the creator, and hence living in rebellion to God. You claim to be wise, but you have merely “exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man”.

    The only solution for you is repentence, If not only wrath an fury await you.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 states it as follows: “The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE”. Did you even bother to read on in the book, or did you find your your solution in the first two chapters to deny God? If you go to strongs concordance you will see that the language used in this verse is “Jehovah” = Lord, “Eloyhimn”= God. In other words God is the generic deity reference, while Jehovah is the name of God, which is given to the Israelites later in the five books of Moses.

    For example, In the introduction of a story, a writer will say; “The captain of the ship stood bravely at the wheel as the waves tossed the ship around” and then later on the writer will write ” Captain Ahab was a brave man, and his crew followed his lead”. This does not imply that there are two people, one called “Capain”, and one Called “Captain Ahab”. Literary connections such as this are made in most novels. Your logic is obviously flawed if you cannot see this, or is it that you do not WANT to see this? (Those are not quotes from Moby Dick, in case anyone is wondering)

  123. Dru

    1.”In the beginning GOD created the heavens and the earth
    “So here we have God creating The Material, and In verses11-31, The living things (spiritual). ”
    Incorrect. It documents God creating The Material world and then the material man.
    The spiritual man is NOT the material man this is YOUR worship.
    “You are serving yourself in your worship of creation over the creator”
    No I never claimed the worship of either but as shown above YOU have. It is a common slight of hand.
    The Ahab literary explanations stuff is just drivel. But that follows.
    You have sought the spiritual and found the material and call it spiritual. “They dive for pearls and come up empty handed calling themselves Christians”.

    But how can I convince you that the material man is NOT the spiritual man and that that is the great deception?

    • It also says that god breathed his spirit into man, and he became a living soul. This makes man both physical ( material) and spiritual.

      What condition man’s spirit is in is a separate issue. He can either reject his creator, or he can accept him.

      If man has a positive relationship with his creator, then he is considered a spiritual man.

      If he does not, he is considered spiritually dead, and need salvation.

      a spirit without a material body is just a ghost.

      there is also a spirit world that have never had a material body.

      • “a spirit without a material body is just a ghost”

        Well after the tribulation we will all be ghosts then. Eh!

    • Steve
      I have found in my life that whenever an argument is placed against a person that is sound, it is never rebutted with logic, only name calling and ridicule. The old duck and dodge. Your rebuttal should come from examination of the language, used in those verses to prove to me that the Eloyhimn of Genesis 1, is different from the Jehovah Eloyhimn of chapter 2.

      This is understandable, as no one likes to be proved wrong, and Admit it.

      You see, Humility and submission is the opposite of pride, and rebellion.

      “Whoever Humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven” Matt. 18:4

      Repentence is easy for a child, as they understand their weekness and dependence on their parents. But the self proclaimed wise ones see themselves as god, and do not need their creator anymore. Yet they still have come amongst the Children of God to prove themselves right. I wonder why? A little insecurity perhaps?

      Alienated asked you what your doctorate is in above? I personally think you just gave yourself that title in order to appear more credible. A little insecurity perhaps?

      So go ahead, let us stop the name calling, and the ducking and dodging, and have a real debate! prove me wrong in a logical way.

      As for the Spiritual man vs. the Material Man, the spiritual man yearns for truth and communion with its creator, while the material man is Loking for praise from creation. Admitting one’s error hurts the Material man (Ego), not the spiritual man.

  124. Here’s a great video on creation for everyone.

    Enjoy!! 🙂

    • Time space and matter were known about all along. The scientific discovery in the 20 century was the mathematical relationship between them.

      If you are interested in gematria then notice that EDEN and BONDAGE have the same gematria value.

      • Humm!! I see. So tell me Steve, what are you – an atheist or agnostic? What exactly is your religion? Just curious you know?🙂

        • A Christian. But one that doesn’t believe rubbish like that in this video. “How come the bible knew about space time and matter thousands of years ago and science has only just discovered it” Please… do you really listen to these ignorant uneducated (I never believe anything written after the Romans) twits?

          • steve

            If you don’t start showing some respect to others on this site, I will block you. You have no proof, just negative opinions. I personally think discussing anything with you is a waste of time. You need to improve or move on to a site that is more similar to your thinking.

          • This may sound harsh but responding to you is like responding to a deranged man. You argue on every comment and abuse everything that relates to the Torah/Bible, Yeshua(Jesus) and the Father YAHWEH, truly I’ve read enough of it.

            You still have a chance while Yeshua is knocking on your front door to let Him in – if you continue to ignore the knock, you will slide into Gêhinnōm, (Hell) that is waiting for you hungrily http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
            Revelation 3:20 – Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. … So decide now!!
            With this I end with no further responses to you.

  125. Dru

    “If you have read any books you would see this.”
    “I personally think you just gave yourself that title in order to appear more credible”
    “only name calling and ridicule”
    Yes I see your point.

    “As for the Spiritual man vs. the Material Man, the spiritual man yearns for truth and communion with its creator, while the material man is Looking for praise from creation.”

    The spiritual man seeks truth and communion with his creator.
    while the material man is Looking for praise from creation and it’s creator.”

    Why do you think the chosen see their own bodies during the revelation?

    Mariannes point is important. “LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being”
    Yes and it’s the tree of LIFE also. But we are discussing the spirit. Not all life is with spirit. There are demons without spirit and men without spirit but they have life.

    • HUHH????

      Steve: There are two creators
      Dru: there is only one God
      Steve: Break up a stone until you find spirit.
      Dru: The God “Eloyhimn” of genesis 1 is the same as “Jehovah Eloyhimn” Of Genesis 2 (My argument from literary logic)
      Steve: “Drivel” “How can I convince you that the Spiritual man is not the material man?” (Change of topic from God to Man, The old duck and dodge)
      Dru: You did not answer my question on God instead changed the topic.
      Then I explained how spiritual man and material man are different.
      Steve: The tree of life???

      How tall was that mountain you climbed? you really should take some oxygen with you! Do you at least see why it is so frustrating to debate you?

      I happen to agree with you on your altered version of my statement, but I know that this is your way of saying that there is a material creator, and a spiritual creator. Yes, material man is always looking for praise from its creator, but they think they can earn that praise (legalism, Good works) and that is a problem (That is adifferent topic however). I am however saying that there is one God that created both the material and the spiritual, and it was man that rebelled against that ONE creator and in order to satisfy the loss of communion with the One creator has given birth to a second god, which is not a god at all, but rather a creation of the material mind of man. That is why you wandered off the topic at hand, Isn’t it?

      Let’s try and respond to the first argument first and then maybe we can talk about the tree of life??

      Whew!

      • Hi dru,

        Are you having fun yet? LOL.

        Steve is more slippery than an oiled up fish, and as you can see, very difficult to pin down on one particular tangent. I am having fun just reading.
        (In spite of our previous differences, I will take this opportunity to say, “it is nice to have you back”.

        Oh and regarding “Jehovah”, did you happen to read my post above in respects to this?
        I’ll post it again here for you.

        (Note- The pronunciation of this personal and intimate Name of God the Father has been lost over the years and nobody knows how it is supposed to be pronounced today. The Third Commandment, (Exodus 20:7), states, “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold guiltless that taketh his name in vain.” On account of this, the Masoretes ensured that the Name of the LORD would not be taken in vain by substituting the vowel marks for Adonai and putting them under the letters from, “יהוה” to “יְהֹוָה” in the running text. This is called “Qere” (what is to be read) as opposed to “Ketiv” (what is to be written). The Hebrew text then, contains the “Ketiv” but uses the vowels of the “Qere” and this has lead to the obviously incorrect pronunciation of the Name as being translated into the English as Jehovah. Hebrew has no letter “J”.)

        I’m going back to my Pop-Corn, although Lisa’s Chocolate Chip cookies sound awful yummy.🙂

        Be Blessed

        • Alienated
          I Haven’t had much time to read many posts, Just happened to catch this one at the right time. (Or is it the wrong time??). Thank you for the Hebrew lesson, I did use a J instead of a Y, my mistake. If you noticed, when speaking to those who are Jewish, I tend to use the hebrew more, and to those that do not have that background I revert back to my Gentile upbringing. I think He knows the intent of our heart nonethless.

          Whatever you said to Steve has put the fear of the LORD in him though. I think he has given up on trying to convert you!!

          I did catch that you are a Canuck, Eh. We are like almost neighbors, I just have to jump in a car and head south! I live in the “left hand of God” if you know what I mean? Don’t spend your “Looney’s” in one place. I got lots more of them canadian quips if you want to hear them!

          Enjoy the popcorn.

        • Dru,

          Brrrrr, buddy that be cold up there. Beautiful but cold.
          So I guess that you wear a Toque then? (Or being a northerly neighbour, would you just call it a Hat?) LOL.

          If you drove directly south though, wouldn’t cha get wet?
          I live at the very southern tip of that really big Island below ya on a map.

          In respects to the Canuck Quips, I suspect that I have heard them all. But thanks for the offer though. LOL.

          I’ll letcha play with Steve unencumbered.
          Carry on there dude.

          • No, not alaska, The one that is shaped like a mitt. Its the only state in the lower 48 that has signs that say “south to Canada”.

            • Dru,

              That would be my bad then.

              You are on the other coast, (way off to the right when looking at a map).
              Hmmm, that could be Maine, where you could drive South East into New Brunswick, or South West into Quebec? But Maine doesn’t look like a mitt.

              I’ll pick Michigan then, where you could drive South East into Ontario.

              Am I right, am I right?
              What do I win? (hopefully some more Pop-Corn) 🙂

              • Your prize: Take your right hand and reach up to the sky and then rotate your shoulder and bend your elbow, then you can pat yourself on the back.

                I heard perry stone once say that Jerusalem was like the right hand of God, with mountains and valleys forming fingers etc. well if this is the case, then michigan is the left hand, from when he was forming the earth!! Its hard to make a snowball with just one hand ya know!

        • Alienated,

          Hebrew may not contain vowels or the letter “J”; and superstition
          precipitated by rebellion, fueled with some convenient etymology
          may have rendered Gods’ name (YHWH) too sacred and uncertain to be pronounced; but if you are willing, accept that those who use the
          recognized forms of God’s name, do so out of reverence and not
          vainly!!
          It is those who have the commonsense to realize that God made His
          name known for the obvious purpose of identification and worship,
          who will not have issues with this, and I’m sure you are one of them.

          So before you get too carried away with Hebrew semantics or popcorn, whichever comes first [smiling tangerine], remember that the “J” in the name that is above all other names, is there to stay !!

          Now must go and listen to some Yewish yazz music; fills me with yoy!

          Blissengs;blossings;blassangs;blussongs…you know what I mean!

          • Richard,

            Thanks brother, that yust cracked me up.
            🙂

            • Alienated,

              Well, you know when someone gets cracked up, it’s usually because of
              a yoke ! Happy yesting, yolly yoker!

              Hope you are well .

              Be blessed.

      • OK I’ll take this one step at a time and put the statements in context.
        Steve: There are two creators
        Yes one spiritual and one material
        Dru: there is only one God
        No
        Steve: Break up a stone until you find spirit.
        Yes a statement implying that there is no spirit inherently in the material.
        Dru: The God “Eloyhimn” of genesis 1 is the same as “Jehovah Eloyhimn” Of Genesis 2 (My argument from literary logic)
        Elohyim can be plural
        Lord god singular. Either way both are material creators.
        Steve: “Drivel”
        Yes a comment to your obtuse story of Ahab.
        Steve “How can I convince you that the Spiritual man is not the material man?” (Change of topic from God to Man, The old duck and dodge)
        No dodge, this is the essence of the arguement
        Dru: You did not answer my question on God instead changed the topic.
        Then I explained how spiritual man and material man are different.
        Steve: The tree of life???
        Tree of the creators life. Life is just animation NOT spirit.
        Dru: I am however saying that there is one God that created both the material and the spiritual, and it was man that rebelled against that ONE creator.
        No. I am arguing that there are two creators and that man rebelled against the material creator for imprisoning the pre-existing spirit.

        Dru: a creation of the material mind of man.

        Well that is a interesting statement. But yes, One god is a ‘creation’ of the material mind of man. One god is a ‘creation’ of the spirit of man.

    • Dru I’ve replied at the end of this thread. Alienated is err here again.

      • The one God i believe in is not Created by man, neither spiritual man nor material man. He is the “Existant one”, He existed before matter and Spirit in man was created. He created both in fact. He existed before time “Began”, and will exist for all eternity.

        As you say a stone has no spirit, this however does not negate the statement that ONE God created both Spirit and Material.

        As for Eloyhimn being Plural and Yehovah Eloyhimn being singular, yes that is true, but when seen in the context of the triune Godhead it makes perfect sense. In the creation account, we have the full Godhead, Father, Son or Word, and the Spirit of the Lord. In his dealing with man, however, we see the singular and personal manifestation of this Godhead. (I believe that is what this post is about). He is one God, in three distinct manifestations. Much like man has a body, Soul, and Spirit, being created in his image.

        A better analogy, is God the father is the will, which speaks through the Word, which acts through the Holy Spirit (Power/Hands). Nonetheless, the triune Godhead is a difficult concept to grasp for man, but those three distinct manifestations are ONE GOD. We submit to the will, we obey the Word, and we are empowered by the Spirit.

  126. I gotta run , I will have more later.

  127. Steve
    Alienated will stay out of this conversation if you request it. I have had my share of disagreements with him, but the end result was always a positive one. (He has honed my sword, so to speak)
    One of us is wrong on this and one is right. One is deceived and one is not. The point is it does not matter who’s ego is hurt, but which one is leading the sheep to slaughter and which one is leading them to God. Their blood will be on our hands whoever is wrong.
    That being said, what is your scriptural basis for there being one creator of the Material and one for the Spiritual. I Quoted Deutoronomy, and There are probably hundreds which state that there is One God (Isaiah 45:5, being one that comes to mind). I have not found any scripture in my 40+ years of life which would contradict this, including the Genesis1,2 accounts.
    1. So what are your other proofs, or witnesses?? Let’s hear your thesis.
    2. who is the god we should follow, if not YHWH??

    Two questions, requiring simple Answers, Remember, This should be so simple a child could understand it.

    • there is no proof for what steve says, so why argue with him?

      • true

      • But Marianne your only ‘proof’ is that life is the same as spirit. Which is in itself a false statement. My claim that material is different in nature to spirit may not be ‘proof’ of different ‘creators’ but it is at least proof of different natures. As Dru has also stated, there is no spirit in stone. But if you cannot follow the argument then leave Dru to.

        • false or true is according to your definitions only.

          if God did not breathe life in you, you would be as inanimate as a stone you speak of.

          your life force is the breath of God., and that is spirit.

          this is God’s definition, so argue with him

  128. Here is what I have to say short simple and to the point. Any who believe a word of Steve or agree with him in anyway, it is a snare of the enemy to possess your souls. The path of him is of deceit. Any who would follow or entertain further are or will be in the need of repentance.

    He our Lord and savior without a doubt is going to tell every, demonic worshipping person in his own living source upon his return.

    There is but one God. He who judges God is in trouble to the point of loosing his soul. This type of debate in my opinion is not of a scholar
    but of a possessed demonic, doing the will of the enemy. He has a desire to corrupt good seed of God.

    How much different is this than the men who just finished taking the KJV bible in the Middle east and reinterpreting it to say allah instead of God.

    No no Gods coming is surely soon. Call me old fashion call me fanatical for God. Someone has to take the right stand here and it is for our faith and believe in God and the Holy Word.

    We have enough issues in the USA we have people getting ready again to make another snare mistake because people are so lost. They are willing now to put a morman in, they are no different than islam.

    I further say all of the new world order, practice the old pagan ways and think that God shall never come, or that satan will defeat God or that they shall continually escape his net.

    But I am here to say, he who pulls levithan out of the water by his nostrils can deal with the like of all nmo with one felt swoop. That day is soon, as the Lord is not delayed.

    He says he will tell the Angels to bind up the tares and throw them into the fire.

    For me he does not need to give me doctrine error. When I got save God made my mind or heart his. As it is reserved for the Lord, he plants his seeds for his plans and purpose for his kingdom.

    This person posing as anyone of knowledge about God or any part of his spirit is an imposter.

    There are many who are sly today trying to lead people captive with their words of bondage.

    I say to this person and every word he has written and works he has done on this site as a weapon that it shall not prosper against me or any other innocent, I say that every word of his judgment upon myself and every innocent shall hereby be condemned by each, I say these things by the right given to all believers, the word of God is above all might and power, as the Lord said it is the believers heritage as a righteous. I make it a further declaration to say I put it under the blood in the name of Jesus Christ that is above all names that every knee must bow.

    Marianne I discern that you need to pray over the site, ask God to forgive all of us who have heard this filth on the site and that trying to help this person we were expoused and do not agree, also request his deliverance and removal of all snares. Let him know that you are sorry for the extent of this conversation. I recomment the same for everyone on this site, if you are a Christian, repent for the things that he has said, because we heard them and they have been entertained in your ears, which goes into your heart which is Gods’ garden in you.

    God cast the fallen out of heaven for far less. We know god deserves all of our reverance and this man has demons and the demons get transferred in this type of activity. It could be days or weeks before you realyze. Just repent to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ and he will do the rest.

    I have personally prayed and repented for myself and I know God will do the rest.

    • hi pattie

      I agree. I think steve is wasting people’s time with foolish debates over opinions not based on any supporting facts.

    • Hi Pattie
      Keep swinging that sword.

      I know from where Steve is coming, and what his intent is. If there is a demon there, there is still a lost soul that needs to be reached. It is with this love for that soul that I have approached him. Jude 17-23

      It may soon be time to shake the dust off my feet, however.

  129. Dru
    1. So what are your other proofs, or witnesses?? Let’s hear your thesis.
    2. who is the god we should follow, if not YHWH??

    In the account of material life in genesis there is no need for spirit just life (animation) material and desire for material. The desire is clearly represented by the serpent. The creator of the material and animation of it (life) is clearly represented by YHWH. I see disobedience as a driver for the ‘fall’. This is just a record of creation, animation, desire and disobedience. THIS is the YHWH and serpent story one of OBEDIENCE and TEMPTATION. Where is the forgiveness? No wonder you believers fear YHWH so much. He is indeed a wrathful god even to the destruction of mankind for his disobedience (again). Satan just loves the creation not the creator. There is in fact no overcoming either of them…. well until Christ came along that is. YHWH indeed thinks that he is the only god (as the creator of matter and life), the OT bible is indeed the word of YHWH. But why would the god of HIS world allow any other record.Of course he thinks Christ is talking about him. But actually Christ is talking about the Father. The Father of the pre-existent spirit. But in truth you all love the creation and fear the wrath of the creator don’t you. That is after all what you have been taught all these years isn’t it. Well what would you expect in HIS world. Didn’t Christ say this is NOT my kingdom? How much ‘proof’ do you want?

  130. John 18:36

    Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place..

  131. My kingdom is not of this world? How come? According to you lot He created THIS world. This world should be his kingdom together with the heaven that he created right?

    • the key word is “OF.”

      Before this world existed , the kingdom of God already existed since eternity.

      Jesus was indicating that his kingdom IS the kingdom of God, who extended his kingdom to this world, and included it.

      So this world has a visible, material kingdom, but the kingdom of Jesus is the kingdom of god, which includes both the eternal kingdom, and the more temporary material kingdom.

  132. “which includes BOTH the eternal kingdom, and the more temporary material”

    “My kingdom is not of this world.”

    Well Christ does not seem to agree with your there.

    So whose kingdom is THIS world.

  133. Steve
    Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world”
    Steve’s assumption: If Jesus kingdom is not of this material world then he had no part in the Material creation of this world.
    My question: Then why is he coming back to this Material world to “rule” it again? What is the point of redemption?

    What your assumption negates is the existence of Sin, and how that separated the creator from the creation (both material and spiritual). What in effect it is saying is that the creator God Is responsible for the separation, and not man, Hence the creator God is responsible for sin. This where we see the inability of man to repent from his rebellion. What you are saying is that man is not responsible for sin.
    To put into laymens terms Your assumption says is this. “Steve does not like lima beans Therefore Steve did not cook the lima beans for this meal” Obviously this is faulty logic as A does not negate B, But you take it a step further and say that “the one who cooked the lima beans made a lousy meal”. You are assuming that all of Material creation is Bad, But the Bible is clear in stating that it was “very GOOD” (Gen. 1:31).

    Your desire for there to be two Gods is based on your desire to not accept responsibility for your own sin, and blame that separation on one God while grasping the other, which is no God, but rather a creation of your own mind. In a sense, though you are evoking the words of Jesus, you are not worshipping the same Jesus which is in the Bible. For that Jesus also said “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30)

    Satan himself evokes scripture while tempting Jesus. And he wants nothing more than for man to not accept responsibility for sin, as this makes man to “Be like god”. Isn’t that the deception he used to get Eve to eat of the tree of the “knowledge of good and evil”. “You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will BE LIKE GOD, KNOWING good and evil.” (Gen.3:4-5) Here we have a promise of false wisdom and increased status for man, But man was created to be man, and to live in a creation/creator relationship with God. In order to restore man to his Rightful place, hence communion with God, they must first repent (The theme of the OT and law) And Believe (theme of new testament and grace, Spiritual redemption) and then the curse of the fall can be lifted (Restoration of the material creation to its rightful relationship with God as promised in the end times) This is when Jesus, will rule both the spiritual and material world. Jesus is the creator of the spiritual and the material, and when he returns assume his throne as Lord over both, as King.

    ALL of your faulty logic stems from that one little deception that the God of Genesis 1 is different from the LORD God of Genesis 2. You have constructed a whole world view from this one misinterpretation, all because you see yourself as a little god, when in fact you are merely the dust of the earth. Repent, as time is running out for you to do so!

  134. Steve,

    You have obviously read the Bible, yet have also misunderstood it’s message.

    This just came to me while reading these recent posts.
    The book of Enoch has been mentioned by myself and others, during peripheral discussions here over the last couple of weeks, yet no one has suggested that you should read it.

    This is the book that the “Enoch” of Genesis 5 wrote, (the 7th from Adam… (Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, “Enoch”)), and not the Enoch of Genesis 4 that was the son of Cain. This book was written by the very same Enoch “that walked with God, “אלהים”, ‘Elohiym, (YHVH, Yeshua, Spirit) and was also translated up to heaven by “God”. (Genesis 5:22-24.)

    The Enoch that is referenced within the lineage of Luke 3:37. The same Enoch that Paul refers to in Hebrews 11:5, and the same Enoch that Jude confirmed as being a Prophet in Jude 1:14. (As well, references can be found regarding this Enoch within books of the Apocrypha. One of which would be Ben Sira 44:16, 49:14.)

    The reason that I suggest that you take the time to read this book, (which because it is relatively short, could be thoughtfully read within a day), is because in reading it, it is virtually impossible to misconstrue the relationship between YHVH and the Son, (Yeshua).

    YHVH is referred to as the “Most High”, the “Great and Holy One, the “Lord and King of peace”, the “Ancient of days”, the Lord of Spirit’s”, the “God of heaven” etc. And Yeshua our Savior is right there with Him.
    Yeshua is referred to as the “Son of Man”, the “Elect One”, the “Messiah”, the “Concealed One” etc. and the fact that They are working in concert together towards a specific fulfilment of purpose can not be misunderstood. (Enoch chapter 3- 46:1,2. specifically.)

    Enoch is the very first book that reveals that Yeshua was pre-existent with YHVH;

    “4 He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall
    down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the
    Lord of spirits.
    5 Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was
    created, and for ever.” (Enoch chapter 3- 48:4,5.)

    This was later confirmed and described in more detail by John in John 1.

    Enoch discusses the Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as well within this book, and also the fate of those that are in peril due to their lack of understanding.

    There are a couple of renditions of this particular book that I have read, most notably those of “Charles and of Laurence” however I will provide the link for Michael F.’s rendition, for it provides additional commentary, as well as within its introduction, some historical background.

    Arguing back and forth with each other appears to be pointless. Why don’t you simply take a day to read this and discover the truth.

    Be Blessed.

    http://www.firefromheaven.net/enoch/enochbook.html

    • I knew you weren’t just enjoying the popcorn! You really should snack on something healthier though…. say lima beans.

      • Yummy, the highly underrated, “Phaseolus Lunatus”.
        Since they are also know as the “Butter Bean” maybe they would actually be good on top of pop-corn?

        I’ll have to get back to ya on that.🙂

        • You really do not know how to comment on something without doing a linguistic study, Do you? You an expert in latin too?

          • LOL,

            An expert in Latin too? “indulgeo mihi, haud.”

            You should know me by now…. I figure if you’re gonna be “anal”, be the best “anal” you be be.🙂

            By the way, Lima beans on pop-corn is really, really bad.
            Just trust me on that.

            Really, Really bad!

            • Ooop’s, that should read “CAN be, not be be”.
              I guess I have to pay more attention and be more anal. LOL.

  135. Haud means “no” , Right? (Big yellow smiley face: If I could ever figure out how to get one of them?) AARGH! Now I have to go find a translator.!

    • Yep, that would basically translate as “Forgive or Pardon me, No”.

      Making a Smiley Face here is just like you would do it in your email before “Emoticon’s”
      🙂 🙂 🙂🙂 See.

      Take Care Dru,
      Be Blessed bro.

  136. Comment to the one who denies Christ as the Savior of the world. Let me tell you why you are so confused and have zero knowledge of the Holy Bible; it is because the Bible is only written for the children of God to read and understand it – not for the children of the devil- it is the Voice of the Almighty, the Majesty, the Creator of ALL creation. He only REVEALS His Word to those who believe in His Son, Jesus, the Messiah. Jesus says, I only speak what I hear My Father say and I only do what I see My Father do. This is for the Children of God – We follow Jesus. The Bible is NOT just a book – it is the Voice of God. It is filled with HIDDEN treasure and you my friend have been REFUSED of that knowledge.The Holy Spirit has not given you any knowlege, because He is Holy and He only reveals to those who are holy and righteous THROUGH CHRIST JESUS! We know them by their fruit. You are unfruitful and God will uproot any tree that does not bear fruit. You dont have the light in you. Jesus is the Light of the world and His Word GIVES light. You are in darkness and dont even know it. and you are blind to it. You have yeilded to Satan and your soul is in serious danger. If you CHOOSE to continue with your corruptable beliefs, it is my duty to warn you that you will perish to eternal hell. If you deny Jesus – you deny God The Father as well and you will be eternally seperated from God forever. Hell was created for all the fallen angels, demons and all who deny Christ and the Son of God, who died for your sins and rose in glory and sits at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven, to give you life. Jesus is the ONLY way, the TRUTH and the LIFE. …..oh, and Jesus did say in the Scriptures that He is the only way to heaven and the only One who can forgive sins. it is by His BLOOD, the ONLY BLOOD that can wash away sin!! He clearly said, I AM the only way. Nobody comes to the Father except through Me. Ask yourself this, why would God GIVE His only begotten Son to DIE, be tormented and CRUCIFIED, if only for Jesus to be a messenger? Jesus died so you can LIVE!! Jesus died because HE LOVES YOU!

    This is your fair warning – ACCEPT THE LAMB OF GOD OR FACE THE LION!! You choose!

    Gods beloved, Kellee

  137. This particular event was Moshe’s first vision unlike the dreams that are given to prophets. This was a clear vision whereas prophets are given dreams within certain parameters and only that which is essential for the message. The reason for the three steps [ fire, messenger, God ] in this event was to initiate Moshe into the realm of direct clear prophecy, like opening each door with anticipation till you come to your destination. The vision of the fire was the first door or level in exciting his curiosity. The second door or level was the presence of a messenger which then gave Moshe comfort. The third door or level was the introduction of God.

    What did Moshe see? Did he really see God? Was it the known presence of God? In my understanding, it is the latter, it was his presence, not the literal appearance of God. Why? because the essence of the clear vision was to bring Moshe into the realm of prophecy at a higher level than any prophet. Most prophets write down their dreams [ which is the lower level or the second door ] from that which they can remember. A clear vision [ the higher level ] is embed into the mind with exactness. Moshe continued to have clear visions [ i.e. designs of the Tabernacle, menorah, etc. ].

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