Arguments for and against pastor salaries
Scriptures used to justify salaries:
(1)
1Cr 9:7 Who goes to a war any time at his own charges? who plants a vineyard, and eats not of the fruit thereof? or who feeds a flock, and eats not of the milk of the flock?
1Cr 9:18 What is my reward then? [Verily] that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
***** Paul didn’t say he was demanding a salary…to preach the gospel is to reap the fruit….that is saved souls…that is the payment for his work…
(2)
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer [is] worthy of his reward.
****** Honor yes…it does not say double money…or take the tithes as salary…what is the reward for the preacher? money or lost souls? if he is preaching for money, he is selling the gospel. This makes him a merchant, not a preacher.
(3)
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap.
**** unrelated to salaries…..you sow the word of god…you reap souls…..:you sow to the flesh, you reap to the flesh, you sow to the spirit, you reap in the spirit.
The logic argument for salaries:
We agree nobody should be greedy for money, pastors included. However, the scriptures are clear that the good elders are worthy of DOUBLE HONOR. So they can collect a salary. The saints should be more than happy and willing to ensure the good laborers in the gospel in church leadership are taken care of if that person is full time (that’s day and night) in the gospel and not working in any other line of work.
*** again….see above….honor is honor, not money…..people in bible times gave their lives for the gospel….now they want to get paid….see where all the power went? this is why the church has no power anymore….everyone wants to get in on getting paid…..and doing nothing that the early apostles did for it….they want the rewards, without the self sacrifice…..they want to make everything physical, instead of spiritual.
Argument against the salary as the harvest for the pastor:
how is honor translated as money? another meaning for honor is reverence and respect…..were the early apostles paid? most of them worked for a living….paul made tents…the others fished, and said that everyone had to work, and support himself, or they had to leave…
even now, there are many who work as volunteers and no one offers to pay them, yet they still work…..salary is reserved for a select few….who do not necessarily work full time – 24-7, sowing the word on new grounds.
this could also be written:
1Ti 5:18 For the scripture says, Thou shall not silence the ox that treads out the corn. (ie. let the man preach, do not silence him) And, The laborer [is] worthy of his fruit, naturally resulting from toils and endeavors, rewards which God bestows, or will bestow, upon good deeds and endeavors
since what he sows is the word, which is spirit, and not physical seed, what he reaps is to be spirit also…..not materialistic/physical in nature….money is physical….
to be busy 24/7, someone must be sowing the spirit seed of the Word all that time….no one does that..
a farmer does not stand in one spot all day and sow all his seed into a one foot square area….he goes out into the entire field and sows……
most ministers do not do this…they stay in one spot, and sow the same seed..,…over and over, to people who already have the seed…..
once someone is saved, and has read the bible once, studying it, they should no longer need a pastor….they are mature and ready, and equipped to go out and sow their own spiritual seed, to reap their rewards (souls of their own). this is how the early church grew so quickly….
remember the apostles were most likely only in their 20s…they were ready after a few years of training….
nowadays….church members vegetate in the pews for 30 years in one spot…..as one pastor tells them the same thing over and over.
this would more appropriately apply to an evangelist….who is supposed to go out to new fields constantly, and sow the word…..to bring in souls…..his reward is spiritual, not physical….
the reality:
no one follows the spirit of the bible now……everyone wants to get paid for what they do….so since they have their reward on earth, they forfeit a reward in heaven……
***final note….Jesus and the apostles did accept free will offerings. However, there is nothing to indicate they received salaries.
see also
seed time and harvest…. Click here for more
tithing in the church….. Click here for more
tithing for Christians and Jews….. Click here for more
Heaven Awaits 
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Arguments for and against pastor salaries « Heaven Awaits said this on April 18, 2008 at 1:38 am |
I think the reality is a bit more complicated than you describe it. Jesus and the disciples were travelling around, so we should kick all pastors out of their house and let them walk through the country? If not: they need a place to live and that place costs money, easy reality. Jesus was not married and had no children, neither were the disciples married nor had children to support.
In the arguments against a salary for the pastor you try to learn people that the pastor should only live from spiritual things, and isn’t allowed to eat (which is physical!). You try to enslave a pastor in working 24/7, but neither did Jesus. Read the Bible about all the great meals they had!
The early church grew quickly, but NOT because they didn’t need pastors! Read the structure in the first church and you will read about leadership and structure IN the church! We are called not to forget the meetings, so not just to go out into fields. A farmer only sows a few weeks every year, chills 6 months and than harvests.
I feel you have some strange ideas, rewarding the pastor only with spiritual things. Are you greedy? There are lots of churches who don´t have a paid pastor, and others that do have one. Neither is good, neither is bad. It´s just the way things go. You try to spiritualize everything, but thank God that Jesus also knew about our physical needs! He didn´t eat for 40 days, but had some great meals during His ministry time. When he was resurrected, He was waiting for the discpiples and had already prepared a meal for them on the beach. Wow, so Jesus wasn´t all that spiritual, not even after He had been dead and was resurrected!
Pastors and other ministers of the Word, evangelists,etc. can work jobs like Paul did. He said that he would work so as not to be a burden upon the saints because they, too, have their bills to pay. But, also, if you believe that God has called you to be a pastor or one of the five-fold ministries, I know with all of my heart, and you too, that The Lord will provide your every need. I believe we should give as the Lord directs us and since He said He will provide then He will direct all the saints to give in such an amount that it will be all that is needed, supernatuarally putting on the hearts of His people the amount needed. Paul said He was content with little and content with abudance. Whatever situation the Lord calls us to live in. He may discipline us to live with a little for a while to teach us total dependence on Him. Praise His glorious , excellent name.
A pastor has to go to college about as long as a psychologist. They council with people too, much like a pastor. I guess, heaven forbid, if you ever have to go to see a psychologist, then you can demand they work for a living somewhere else, and help you with your issues for free.
Funny, Jesus did not demand schooling – in fact he took people from opposite lifestyles to preach the word. Studying should be every true believers lifestyle. Many people I know work and then spend time studying and preaching the Word daily. Look at other countries studying the bible in make shift churches or homes. Only in capitalistic countries do we turn Churches into money making machines.
someone can be a pastor with as little as a 2 year degree. that does not make them a psychologist, who is normally a PhD.
however, with extra training, they can be helpful.
if people learned the Word of God, they would not need counseling from anyone.
I’m not stating people need counseling- I am referring to someone else who made the comment associating why pastors should be paid- (they said pastors spend the amount of time as doctors studying).
Most pastors I know of that HAVE gone to school have not gone to school NO WHERE near the 6-8 years demanded for a PHD
Peter was married
so why is that relevant?
Peter was married
Thank you for your kind words dear. God bless you
Peter was married my friend
John,
It looks like we are on opposite sides of the fence here.
The way I see it, the early apostles never turned the church into a business with church programs, and administrative boards, and building programs. They just preached the gospel, which did not happen 24/7. They did it as they met people. They had their own earthly jobs, and supported themselves. There was no elite group that got paid. All believers acted in one of the five ministry roles to bring in new converts, and educate them. It did not take seminary school or a lifetime to become active. Once someone was a believer, they studied the scriptures, and then they were busy about the Lords’ work. They did not spend the rest of their lives in bible studies which told them things they already know. New converts became ministers as soon as they were ready,
Today’s church does not mirror the early church. Pastors do not spend much time at all, if any, teaching new converts. They spend most of their time with “church programs,” if they are busy at all. They are business managers of a business. They are not really pastors. So, most of their activity is unnecessary, and not biblical. They are part time at best, in the actual ministry. There is no reason to pay a full time salary to someone who is part time. The other members do very little if nothing to bring in new converts, since that is what the pastor is paid to do, even though he spends 0 time doing this. They do nothing, except go to bible study, and learn things they already know, or learn things from a teacher, because they do not read the bible on their own. They are forever attendants at a church that hardly grows, and is more likely to be decreasing in size.
Today’s church is either a a graveyard, or a place of apostasy. Neither appeals to those who are truly seeking God and wish to serve in the kingdom. Only paid staff are considered anointed and chosen by God. The rest have to do what they are told, and give money so the elite group can be paid.
This scene is not for me. I was in it my entire life, and want no more of it. Someone can serve God, while keeping their earthly job, just like the apostles did, and like Jesus did, and reap the spiritual benefits. Jesus never promised a salary to his apostles, even through offerings were not refused. They did better than pastors do today, because they did not commercialize the gospel, and did not spend their time in unnecessary activities, ignoring the unsaved.
Do not get me wrong. I attend a local church, which does not have any new converts. Although the size is small, maybe a few hundred people, they have at least 10 paid staff. What do they do? I do not know. The pastor is not available during the week, and never answers even an email. I volunteered to work in “outreach to the lost” but they do not have a ministry like this. The only things unpaid people are expected to do is play music, work the video, dance, vacuum the carpets, and hand out church bulletins. They do occasionally go overseas to Europe, but they go to minister to church groups there, not to win the lost. So I do not understand why we support them with funding, if they are just fellowshipping, and not preaching the gospel.
I wish modern day pastors would wake up, and realize how dead and boring they are, and their churches are. I wish they would realize why people are leaving the church. It is a poor witness for Christ, and is hindering the gospel, not helping it.
blessings
marianne
Dear Marianne, there are still groups of believers who try to bring the Gospel of the Good News: the coming Kingdom of God to the people.
It is wrong to think that as one is once saved, and has read the bible once, studying it, they should no longer need a ‘pastor’ or some spiritual leader. To be able to grow and mature in faith and character building according to the Wish of God, they need to come together and regularly read the Scriptures. Therefore there are still interested people to “keep the ground fertile and water the plants”.
When those people are not paid ministers or pastors, they have to spend their time and own money voluntary. When we try to proclaim the Kingdom and the Word of God we do not charge any body, though we still do have to face the cost of living and obligations (rent, postage, internetconnection, electricity). The problem with communities like ours, the Christadelphians, everybody is free to give what they want. In our Belgian services we even do not hold a collection in the service. But what we notice today is that nobody thinks they should provide some financial or other help. So it our the same people who have to provide for everything and do all the work (because often others forget that there is a lot of administration with an ecclesia and with preaching.)
In case there are paid pastors, as in most Christian denominations, and paid spiritual leaders (as in all the recognised mosques) they should be present for their believers and surely should work for their flock. Those who do not try to bring in new converts are not doing their job properly, but they shall notice their church shall diminish as well, by those who die and get to old or sick to come. When those pastors are also boring and do not bring interesting lectures than there is really something wrong, because they should have time enough to work at their lectures.
But we must say as in our community, having not one paid elder in the ecclesia and very limited funds to keep the ecclesia (all the worldly costs) makes it not always easy to run the ecclesia or ‘church’ and to do proper parish work.
hello christodephians
I guess what matters most is that the sheep and their pastors are in agreement, and that they act with a good and sincere heart.
What I was trying to point out is that if sheep mature, they should be pastoring new sheep, and accepting more pastoral responsibilities of their own.
pastors are mainly for new, immature sheep, that need to be taught. Sheep that have been in the Word for 10-30 years should move on, and have their own ministry, instead of being spoon fed by their old pastor. But there will always be sheep that will never mature, and need constant guidance.
Most churches are based on a 1-2 x a week service. This should not require a full time commitment, and a salary. I get messages within the hour after I sit with the Word. Sermons should not take that long to prepare, unless one is trying to use their mind instead of their spirit to find inspiration.
I admire those that want to be in full time ministry, so I should not detract from their efforts. I am full time myself. But I do this without pay. I guess I am too idealistic. the apostles worked for a living and ministered as well. They accepted free will offerings but never took a salary. I want to be the same way.
there should be a way that individuals who are truly called of God can manage to be self supporting and still minister to others. it would be a shame for them to neglect a calling because they felt they were too dependent upon offerings and salaries.
I have a few questions…first, have you ever single-handed run an entire service for a group of 50-100 people including preparing music, bulletins, song sheets, volunteers, Sunday school lessons, etc.? If so, have you done so 2-3 times per week every month of the year? You pastor is doing much of the preparation even when he’s gone I might add.
Pastors also make sure the church is presentable. Do you do the cleaning when volunteers forget (which happens much more often than you think), get the coffee going (because, again, someone forgot or didn’t mention they would be gone), get the video or audio equipment set up so that the elderly or sick can still feel a part of the flock, etc, etc?
During the week, there are meetings with various individuals at various times for various reasons. If you have no need of a pastor, are you taking on your share? There are hospital visits (members tend to be working when people need them most), home visits (for those who are ill or recovering), nursing home visits, rehab visits, etc. In a larger city, there is a half hour drive time (at least), a 30-60 minute visit and then a half hour drive home. How often are you willing to commit this kind of time? And how many people would you be willing to help out each week?
What about counseling? There are so many hurting people in this world and they need consistent biblical counseling in order to grow in the Lord. People often don’t know how to stop drinking spiritual milk. They just keep slurping away until someone comes along and provides the tools and it often takes one on one interaction. Yes. In an ideal world, the flock would take on all of these responsibilities, but we live in such a broken world that our Father knew that we
would need a shepherd here on earth to keep from straying (he has provided many for his people throughout time).
I’ve seen our pastor take the time to get coffee for an HIV positive man traveling through town, a man who called because he needed to talk to someone. The pastor then took this man to the bus station where he purchased him a ticket so he could return to his family. Are you available to do that type of ministry? Any time of day? Most people do something like that once and then pat themselves on the back, but the pastor does it again, and again, and again.
This is just one example of so many. You see. Your employer, unless you happen to be self-employed and in little need of money to support you family, is not going to allow you to drop everything and help the sick, the needy, and the hopeless. That is what your pastor does for you (and much more) at any hour of the day. In my opinion, most pastors don’t get paid enough, but I’ve met very few who complain. They continue to press on because they have been called and they love the Lord despite the persecution by believers and nonbelievers alike and if we are following the Lord’s instructions, we will provide from them as a token of our love.
hi heather
that is a rare pastor…..the sheet music, et should be there from week to week, sunday school lessons come out of a book now, if you are a denomination.
the problem with all this activity is that much structure has been added to the church life, where in the time of the early apostles, none of this was done, and the church grew anyhow. modern day church makes things too complicated.
Jesus did not use song sheets and bulletins. he just talked to people.
the size group should not matter. one just opens one’s mouth and speaks.
most pastors do not do all this…..they have lots of volunteers to do all that, which is the way it should be. ministry is the job of all believers, not one person.
I have done many of those activities with a full time job….and I am retired now, on a small pension, which put me below the poverty level. the activities I used to do while working I just do more of now.
I will always respect anyone who is active each day helping others. I just hope this person realizes this was supposed to be a shared activity, not just one person’s burden.
if the burden is shared, then the work is less, and one can also focus on earning a living and supporting oneself and family, as one should do.
Jesus just talked to the people because he was the Word of God. We are not. We have to read, pray and meditate in ways that He did not have to. It’s also really dangerous to compare the role of the pastor to that of Jesus. He is the head of the church. He calls some to shepherd the flock, but we are not to compare them to Him even though we are all striving to be more like Jesus.
Even if a Sunday school book is used (there are few of high quality out there, mind you), there is prep work involved. I happen to teach an adult Sunday school class and depending upon the topic, it can take a few hours to prep since I want to be thoroughly prepared (words studies can add hours by themselves). Also, “getting a message” and preparing to share a message is not the same thing and involves vastly different techniques and preparatory work.
As for music, we are to give God our best which means spending the time to organize the music (for the service and after) which, believe me, takes more time that you’d imagine. I know because I’ve done it. Music also involves practice time which most pastors of small churches have to oversee. The thought and care that goes into such “simple” things is always greater than people realize.
As someone who has always been active in leadership and any task that is needed (cleaning, nursery, teaching, cooking, carpooling, babysitting, etc.), I’ve been able to work alongside some very amazing men and women of God and this is what I can share.
The majority of pastors work very diligently to draw others so that they might share their unique gifts with the entire body; yet, again and again, people refuse or drag their heels or try for a while and then fade despite constant encouragement and opportunities to grow. As a result, there are often moments when your pastor is filling a gap until someone else it prompted by the Holy Spirit to take it over.
Thank goodness for the small core of each church. They are the ones who love and support the pastor the most and they are the ones doing the majority of the work. They too try to pull others in and invest mightily in them, but it’s rare to see someone new step up for the long haul. Having “lots” of volunteers just isn’t the reality in most churches. We live in a very selfish time.
There is also an emotional tole that most people have no understanding of. That is why so many pastors burn out. I have heard people criticize for the most silly things – people who have no real understanding of what’s really going on in the church. People who elevate themselves and stand back in judgment of every action or inaction.
Finally, organization is essential. It’s insensitive to “wing it.” Planning shows a respect for people’s time. It shows a love for the Lord because you are willing to do your absolute best to glorify Him.
it sounds like your pastor is not very inspirational
if the word is in him then he can speak as Jesus spoke.
under the true anointing, all comes out spontaneously and in order.
Based on what I said, that’s quite a jump you made. Nope. The Holy Spirit speaks loud and clear convicting and challenging time and time again. Anointing is an act of consecration for office or religious service. Scripture does not imply that it is a magic potion.
the anointing is the power of God, and the presence of the holy spirit. it is available to everyone, not just those in office.
but anyhow, I am glad you are pleased with your pastor.
Again, people r only commenting on this country. Go to another country and see how the people bring the good news with limited money. Again if money is not the root of evil, why r so many arguments arising? Even in a Christian based commentary?
It is interesting to me how people love to point the finger at others. I guess the question I would ask the author is, when was the last time you led someone to Christ? When was the last time you discipled someone? I am a part-time paid Pastor and I spend more hours a week studying scriptures, meeting with new and old believers, praying and planning than most spend at a full-time job. I just laugh and shake my head when people say “What do you do all day?” The fact is, a Pastor is charged with preaching correctly, protecting the flock from wolves, edifying and encouraging the church. Edify means to build and building is a process, not an event. Pastoring is all about relationships and relationships take time……believe me, lots of it. Not to mention the emergencies that come up with families, health, deaths, and marriages that the Pastor is expected to council people through. I’ve walked with families through adulteries , rape and sexual abuse, I’ve cleaned up brain-matter after a suicide so the family didn’t have to, I’ve supported families through drug addictions and substance abuse just to name a few. There are also administrative things that have to be done. (Acts 6) The church is a legal entity and therefore taxes, buildings, bills, safety guidelines, insurance, training are all a necessary evil. All while bringing an inspired Word from God every Sunday and raising a family. What do Pastors do all day? Also, the idea that someone just needs to get saved and read the Bible once and they are good to go is not reality. If it were that easy, why isn’t everyone doing it? Jesus spent 3 years with His disciples and that still wasn’t enough time training them so He sent the Holy Spirit. If it took Jesus that long and He was perfect, its safe to say that it will probably take us longer. By the way, the church structure is God’s idea. Read through Titus and Timothy. The church is a living organism and all life has to have structure to live. There are 2 illustrations in the New Testament that are used to describe the church. The body, and the living temple, both of these are structures. My advice is to get over whatever hurt happened to you at your last church and stop criticizing imperfect people who love Jesus and are trying their best in an imperfect world to share the gospel. Should Pastors get paid? Jesus lived off people who supported His ministry. Paul said it’s ok to but choose not to. If you lived a day in the life of a Pastor you would say yes!
dear steve
I do live ministry every day….I am 24/ 7 ….and I do not do it for pay. I do it out of love. I do everything you do, and across state and international lines. I have 6000 people a day come through here, and about 100-200 contacts a day.
While what you do is admirable, it sounds like the church is out of balance. If you have to do that much, it means no one else is doing anything.
Jesus never got a salary. Neither did the apostles. Occasionally, someone made an offering. Paul made tents, Others fished, etc.
My job is to equip the saints, so they can do everything you are doing for others.
the church was never intended to be structured so that the pastor is the busy one, and everyone else goes home, and pays him to do what they will not do.
the church was designed to ALL believers to be ministers of the gospel , once they are equipped, they leave and go out and lead others. believers were not meant to pass off all ministry to the pastor. all the pastor is to do is teach the new sheep, so they will mature and leave, to bring in more new sheep, or so they will teach new sheep themselves.
if your church is a legal entity, then it is a business, and you are just an employee.
so an employee gets paid.
while this is the accepted way to do things now, my point was that it was not designed to be this way.
I cannot say to any church to change their structure…I can only point out what the bible says.
a living organism consists of different parts, and they are all alive and functioning. if only the head is working while the rest stays home, dependent upon the pastor or head, then it might be alive, but it is not well.
again, you have your arrangement….which your church agrees to, and you have your responsibilities, which you are faithful to. So, what I say is food for thought.
Look around next sunday. how many are doing what you are doing? If alot, then you have succeeded. If not many, then you failed. so again food for thought. I do not know you. I do wish you well, and that God bless you in your work.
Thanks for the reply. You are absolutely right in saying that more Christians need to be doing the work of ministry. And I completely agree that if most of my church is not doing some form of ministry then I am failing as a Pastor. It isn’t that I am the only one doing anything, it’s just that there is a lot to be done…..and it takes a lot of time!!! I just think it is unfair and unbiblical to stereotype every Christian who is getting paid by a church as just an employee. Jesus had a lot of people support his ministry and as I mentioned in my last post, Paul said he had a right to accept pay but chose not to…. he in no way condemned it. The church is called to minister in the culture it is placed. I think that people who look to the book of Acts as a model are pretty picky in the things they pull from it. Most Christians don’t sell their homes and properties and give it all to the church…. but they like the idea that all the funds should be equally distributed. And imagine if that happened today. Thousands got saved at the first sermon and then there was a huge amount of money that came in because of everyone selling their stuff and giving it to the church. If that happened today what would you do? Imagine hundreds of thousands of dollars coming into a group of people. Are they just going to put all that in a personal bank account? Are people just going to give to a person or to a group? Do they accept credit card? Do we know that we can trust this group? Who are they accountable to? So we should sell all our stuff and give it to a person or group that is not accountable to anyone and just trust them to do what is right? Who is going to be responsible to make sure it is distributed appropriately? What if we did this and someone accused us of prejudice and not handling the funds properly (Acts 6). Here comes a lawsuit. So we should probably start a non-profit so we can have a bank account…then you become a legal entity….Let’s say you want to raise a lot of money for a church in a different city. What would the process be today??? Check out 2 Cor. 8:19-21. We are to do things in such a way that is right before God and man and the only way we can do that in today’s culture is to abide by the laws of the country we live in.
The truth is that EVERYTHING that you have, your giftings, talents, personality and life are from God so if we take your line of thought to it’s completion we really shouldn’t get paid for doing anything. That’s like telling a musician he should play for free because God gave him that gift. It’s the same as telling an accountant that they should do your taxes for free because God gave them the gift of administration and they should do it out of love not pay. I’m sure you see your place of employment also as a place of ministry (as you said 24/7 ministry), but you expect to get paid. Shouldn’t you do it out of your love for those people where you work? You have no problem using the giftings, resources, time, and life God gave you to make a living, why is it wrong for Pastors to do the same? Because its the church??? No it’s not, WE are the church. You, as the church, use your God given giftings and life to make money, why should I not use mine?
I do think that writing a blog is a significant ministry, my wife does one, but are you personally involved with people in your community discipling and teaching them? If you don’t mind me asking, when was the last time you personally led someone to Christ? Or is your ministry limited to the web? If it is limited to writing, I encourage you to go get your hands dirty in people’s lives. Writing is difficult, but being involved in people’s broken, hurt, lives is extremely difficult. I hope this post doesn’t sound negative because I would like to hear your response. I agree with you that the “church” is in severe need of a overhaul, I just don’t think pointing our fingers at it’s leadership is the answer.
Steve
I do more than “write.” there is telephone counseling, answering emails for help, prayer, questions, debates, intercession, and sometimes direct help, if they live nearby, or I will contact someone near them. I have had over 5 million people come here, and the traffic is about 6000 a day. I receive no money so I have not much to offer financially.
I have been involved with my local Rescue Mission to help the homeless since 1996. I am deeply involved in the lives of many people, and they are from all around the world. I have led people to Christ, and prayed one on one for deliverance issues in people’s lives. I have also assisted on radio talk shows where we discuss current events in the light of prophecy.
I have a huge prayer list with over 600 names, and I know everyone on it, where they are from, what their request is, how they are doing, and how to contact them for an update.
I would not compare ministry to a secular job. In a secular job, you are focused differently, and would probably get fired if you tried to minister in a secular environment, due to the current laws. I am a retired medical scientist, and do not see too much how my gift in that area would be considered a ministry, unless someone needs advice of that nature.
The early church was not a commune, where no one had a house. Peter had his own house, and I have seen it. About 500 sq ft. It would not fit too many people. The bible said they went house to house and broke bread and fellowshipped. Sharing with others then does not imply opening a bank account today. People shared as the need arose. They did nothing that would imply the use of credit cards today also. So I do not think your analogy applies too well.
What I was addressing earlier was a possible imbalance in a church structure. If you are doing all or most of the work, and others do not assist you or participate equally, then things are out of balance. What I see today in a “successful church” is a pastor who does everything, while others go to work all week, pay tithes, and pay him to do everything. Occasionally, someone helps on a weekend.
I think it is inspiring that you do serve the Lord. the question is , are you the only “busy” one in the church? If others are equally engaged, then that is good.
I understand the current economy and church structure. I do not like it, but it works for most people. People need to make a living…. so pastors need to earn money somehow, either through side work or direct pay. But what I also see many times is the pastor has a salary that way surpasses the time spent, and way surpasses what others in the church make, has homes, vehicles, and benefits more like a CEO than a pastor. This I object to. The offerings that come in should focus on ministry needs and the poor.
note: your comment number. that gives an idea how many comments I have been involved in and how busy I am.
steve
on second thought, apologies. maybe I seemed too harsh. you are trying to do a good job. obviously, you have a congregation that needs you to do all that and you are willing. best wishes and god bless you.
Thanks for the reply. And I commend you that you aren’t one of the people who complains about everyone else yet doesn’t lift a finger to do anything themselves. It sounds like you a have a significant ministry and I hope that it continues. I think you are wrong in separating the “secular” and the “church.” As Christians we recognize that everything we do is done unto God as worship and as you correctly stated we are Christians 24/7. Your “secular” work is (or was) very much ministry!! Because you are filled with the Holy Spirit and you just don’t turn that off because you go to a “secular” environment. Obviously tact and discretion is needed but that is definitely a ministry. Everywhere you go becomes sacred because the Holy Spirit lives in you.
Also you haven’t addressed the issue that you have made lots of money by using your God given (and owned) gifts, resources and life. You may have the Spiritual Gift of leadership or administration (Rom. 12:8) that was given to you by God. You used that to make money, to support your family. I was given the Spiritual gift/office of Pastoring and I use that to take care of my family. Not to mention the whole Old Testament system where priests were supported by the tithes and offerings. They were given no land to work because their work was in the temple. The temple duties required all of their time.
Lastly, you haven’t addressed the scripture where Paul says that he had the right to get paid for what he did, but chose not to. In fact, in 2 Cor. 11:8 he specifically mentions being supported by churches in doing the ministry. In 1 Cor. 9:7-12 Paul specifically says that it is his “right” to be paid for doing the ministry. He specifically mentions sowing “spiritual” seed and receiving a “material” harvest. But because of his situation he choose not to. I think it is pretty clear in scripture that Pastors have the right to get paid for all their hard work.
Are there Pastors who take advantage of this? Absolutely. But our interpretation of scripture doesn’t come from our opinions, hurts, preferences or bad experiences….it comes from God’s word which clearly states that…. Matt 10:10 ….the worker is worth his keep.
steve
Up front, you are doing what you do, and have sincere reasons. So am I.
Regarding secular work, I do not see it as comparable to ministry, although there may be some opportunities at times to show the love and salvation of God in a secular setting.
For one thing, I was working for those who could pay me, and my salary came from those with money, not the poor. In ministry, I help people who cannot pay me.
In the early church, the apostles all had jobs for a living and supported themselves. Some fished, Paul made tents , etc.
They made a point that everyone had to work. no bums..yes, there is a scripture about being due double honor, but it did not mean double money. Occasionally, there were some free will offerings, and all tithes went to the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed, not pastors. Everyone worked, and everyone ministered. There were no salaries.
For “church,” people went from house to house, and shared what they had. there were no buildings, and 501c3s.
Paul was saying in 2cor that even though they sow spiritual seed, and are entitled to reap material things, this is not what they do, because v 12, this would hinder the gospel of Christ. he was indicating that this was a spiritual seed with a spiritual harvest, which was more important than anything material.
in ministry , the goal in sowing spiritual seed is to harvest souls, not salaries or material things. if material rewards are involved, then this would be v 18, abusing one’s authority in the gospel.
jesus set the example. he sowed the word of god and reaped salvation for mankind. this is the real harvest. Jesus could have asked for money but he didn’t. he remarked he had nowhere to lay his head. he had no vehicle, no house, etc.
so it is his example and the example of the apostles that I follow.
In regards to pastors spending a lot of time- it is the new wave of pastoring in which small groups learn and comfort each other biblically. This hands off approach is a concern to me personally. Like someone said in their comments, pastors study in higher ed as long as a psychologist – so do psychologists help people because they r more knowledgable or do they pass this part along to groups with similar issues.
Frankly Steve, I think you like it this way…If pastors will humble themselves and put away their pride, they could come to realize it’s power and control over the body they enjoy…and then they complain when they are confronted and called out to accountability and questionably so, as to why they do not mirror the early church…Jesus did way more then you and never once complained. He lived harshly and without the modern day conveniences we have today. He was cared for, not supported by…there is a big difference here! He also said, “let the dead bury the dead”…I’ve always wondered about this…Funeral Parlors Have staff to conduct services…Pastors wear too many hats! why?…One other matter that might be a hard pill for you is the un-biblical nature of “membership”. If one is not a member but just an attendee, they reap no benefits…what about these groups? Jesus Loved the Undesirables the church puts out of their flock…Please face the facts of the corruption going on within the body and don’t play along like so many other Pastors. Btw, I’ve yet to meet a Pastor who doesn’t live like the common flock. I pray church leaders wake up and stop self-glorifying. It may sound harsh…but we need a wake-up call.
The church should NOT be a business! In fact, the church is the BODY of CHRIST not a business entity. All these programs and things that we MAKE UP are not necessary for us Christians to come and fellowship and edify each other which is the purpose of the church service in the first place. Offerings should be given to donate to those in NEED as a ministering tool to bring people to Christ and provide for MEMBERS who are truly in dier straits and cannot support themselves at that time. Everybody else should be working in the kingdom that way no one person gets burned out. Besides in order to have a business with all of these offices you need MULTIPLE people involved who should rightfully be paid ALSO not just the senior Pastor.
John what a good explanation that even shows humility. I always ask my self why christians dont read th bible but depends from their pastors, or how if Jesus may come back again in flesh and explain all of this.
AMEN!!!!!!!!
I would like to add one thing if I may. In the early church, when they gave, they divided it equally amongue those/all who had aneed. Can you imagine todays pastors dividing up the offering in their mega Church and give it to those in their congreation who were in need???
Hi Hanna,
It is so good to have you here. 🙂
NO, I cannot imagine today’s pastors putting those in need first before their own salaries. I have had friends who were in need and were rejected for help, when there was plenty of money. I also had one friend who was in danger of being killed in another country, and the church would not sponsor him to save his life. I would have paid for everything. All they had to do is sign some papers, but they shunned us. They did not think he would “fit in.” Fortunately, for the young friend, he is still ok, but the dangers are increasing every day. He is in a bad place. God protects those that the church rejects.
I had one pastor tell me that today, the church is a business. Only certain selected individuals considered “qualified” get a salary. Everyone else is expected to do things for nothing. Expensive building projects are more important than the poor. I have been in need myself, after a long period of membership in the church (10 years) and they would not help me either. I was an abandoned mom with 2 kids. Church programs also take priority over the poor.
The attitude of “leadership” is that we are there to support them in their needs, but they are not there to support us. We give, they take…..
I would not say all churches are like this, but many are, and I ended up in them.
blessings
marianne
Marianne,
As I read your comments I do sense both heartache and compassion. The apostate church of today has broken many hearts of men and women of faith and we can but share compassion for these lost people who remain under the leadership of these false shepherds. The time has come however that we must echo the words of Yeshua that the blind will be led by the blind, for these share a common bond in their lack of understanding or their desire to read the Word. The Word of God is available to all yet because they have chosen fables over truth they will also reap what they have sown. The Apostles worked as was honorable to all men, not desiring to preach the gospel for gain, their reward was the souls of men and women born again with new desires and a need for a relationship with whom they worship. The Word of God was made flesh and dwelt among us…, to know whom we serve we must study the scriptures and take up our cross lest we be ashamed when we stand before him.
The fact remains that the Apostles warned that this time would come, this only stands to confirm that the return of the Lord draws near and the wickedness of man will increase. Sound doctrine that was once taught and considered a treasure has now been abandoned by many in exchange for fables, this is the product of paid preaching. The gospel would not have spread with a price tag, however, a price was indeed paid, the very lives of these great men and women were sacrificed willingly to reveal the hope that we now have within us. The wheat and the tares will soon be seperated, the wheat gathered in the storehouses of the Temple of God in Heaven, and the tares reserved unto fire to be burned as stubble in the pit of Hell. God is a God of Love yet he remains a very real God of Judgement.
Hi Rodney,
What you say is very true and sad. Jesus already paid the “admission price” to get in to hear the gospel. It cost him his life, so that the truth would be free to all, and now people make money off of his death.
God bless you
marianne
Wow, this article really hits home for me, & hits the nail on the head in many areas!
John (the first comment) has a few valid points…we don’t sow (in the natural) full-time, & though perhaps eveangelists may be called to that, I do believe that all believers should be serving God every moment of every day! But there seems to be few pastors that do this, let alone believers…
…& didn’t Jesus tell them to leave their nets, He was going to make them fishers of men? But that was the apostles, not necessarily everyone, of course…
…I wish this could be sent to every pastor of every church…I wonder how many would have ears to hear?
Prayerfully,
~Anastazia~
Hi Anastazia,
I was told by a pastor that the modern church is a business now. That there are expenses to be paid, like buildings and salaries. The same pastor also refused to help me rescue a persecuted christian child from a Muslim country, even though I was willing to pay for everything. I needed him in a christian school, and needed them to sign a student visa form. They would not do it because they did not think they could get the full tuition from me, because I had gotten laid off. They put their desire for money before the life of the child. That shows how twisted the church has been. It is all about themselves now. Money is spent on maintaining themselves, not helping others as much as they should. Of course, there are christian charities.
I am still laid off, but I sit here all day and help people for nothing. I put in more hours than a pastor would. I reject the idea that Jesus died a bloody, horrible death so that I could make a living off of it. Sharing the gospel is a commandment and a privilege. If we do this, God will provide for our needs. So far, He has been faithful to me. I have little, but I am ok.
blessings
marianne
To all:
I still think we need churches today. Look at our geography. We as humans have inhabited every major land mass on the planet(except Antartica, brrrr…). Spreading the Word has to take a new meaning now than it did during Paul’s time. I believe churches give those that are looking for answers a chance to find the truth. We have a small church(less than 250), but there are always new faces that show up and we have events that draw new people in. As long as they come to hear the Word one time, it is worth it because the seed has been planted. God does the work after this. The person has received witness. It is our responsibility as attendants to the church to serve witness, as well, to how Christians can be. That lost person might just come back.
I hate to put all pastors in one box, though, and say they are all materialistically driven. I enjoy having my pastor at our church. He has a lot on his shoulders and I’m almost sure he goes without time off quite a bit. He still makes himself available to us, though. What Marianne’s pastor said was definitely not a good statement to make, especially for a pastor, right? There are, however, hardworking ministers that are called by God, who to me, are deserving of a “reward”.
My feeling is that if any wrong-doing is going on in any church, God will handle it. We just have to have patience. As for ourselves, when we go to church, let us look at ourselves and do what we have to do to make sure we are prepared to be in God’s presence. Forget about everybody else (including the pastor). And most important: STICK TO YOUR BIBLE!!!
God’s peace,
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Many pastors do not fit the biblical description, but I am glad your does. Churches are needed, like you say, for the newly saved. They have to go somewhere to learn the Word of God, and the correct interpretation.
blessings
marianne
very good post, I agree with a lot you’ve said,,lots of the money they get and the building funds, would buy lots of food for the hungry, clothe the poor and shelter the homeless, and one other thing I am wondering about too,, the Paid Godpel singers,, that charge for people to hear them sing about God. just entertainers, not really worshiping,, and nice clothes, Jewelery, and fine homes.. I will not pay to go and hear them anymore…I believe God will bless someone that sings from their heart,like David did with Pslams… It has all gotten out of hand, just a business,, God will bless you more in a run down shack,being poor , singing at the top of your voice,really praising him…
Hi Deb,
Thank you. Somehow, money is a sign of approval from god now for many people. They think that God is sending them money for being obedient, but it is just them, charging money to bless people. This is why we cannot win anyone to Christ. Unbelievers are smart, and they see it is all about the money. We need to change this.
blessings
marianne
I believe that the scriptures are quite clear on the subject. In the new testament church the tithes and offering were brought in and laid at the feet of the apostles. Then they were distributed to all according to their need, even to the point that all needs were met (see Acts 2:45 & Acts 4:34-35). It is therefore clear that the pastor like other saints are due only the amount it takes to satisfy their need. Example: If I am a pastor and have a good job that supplies my needs outside the church, then I have no right to a salary of excess at the expense of others in the church who have a need. Quite simple.
Dear Gary,
if you reread the verses you gave me, you will notice that
1. “Tithes and offerings” were not mentioned. This was a one time event. You can only sell your house once, if you give away the money. As good Jews, they paid tithes at the Temple in Jerusalem. That is the ONLY place the tithes were to go. You need to understand what the tithe is(food-wheat corn, oil), where it is given(Temple), and who benefits from it (the person who brings it – they eat it, and share some of the food with the priest – who can only eat so much anyhow, or he would blow up- and the poor). It was brought once a year, not every week.
2. It was a one time – or at best occasional offering – it did not say that the apostles used any of it at all, but they distributed it among those present. How many pastors do you see do that? Usually people give, and get nothing back. How many people in your church does the tithes and offerings support as they need it? If you say none, that would make sense, because the members are taught that the money is for the “church” and the pastor, but not them, so they do not bother to ask for their share. How many people do you allow to come up and help themselves to what they need from the collection basket?
Just because they laid what they had at the apostles feet, does not mean the apostles kept the money for themselves, and what they wanted to spend the money on.
3. the apostles did not earn a salary from what was offered. Everyone was expected to work and support himself. Even Paul refused a salary.
I am constantly amazed at pastors who know nothing about how the tithe really worked. I wish they would start teaching the truth in seminary.
But of course, if they did, then no one would have a salary, and they would go out of business. FYI – the gospel is not a business. It is a calling.
Take a look at these posts, for the biblical (not man made) version of tithes and offerings.
https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/108/
https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/tithing-judaism/
hope it helps.
blessings
marianne
Shaom Marianne,
I am aggree with your opinion but my question is “Do yo know where I am able to find the church or congregations without talking about money”?
Every churches today (all over the world) always talk about offering and 10 %, because they have to pay the Pastor.
One of my friend become a pastor because his bussiness was slowly and he talked to me “now I want to be a pastor, because it is good for my family”.
Thanks for your website.
GBU
David
Hi david,
Forget finding a church. We are in the last days. Wherever you find a congregation, you will find a pastor that wants to be paid. There is fellowship locally, in home fellowships, look for community events in your area. The only pastor you need is Jesus.!!!! 🙂
I more or less stumbled upon this thread and I have to say that I am deeply grieved to hear of the obvious pain that far to many have suffered. Man is infinitely flawed and thus, so is the church; however, I urge you to have compassion for those who have wronged you in the past and for those who are certain to wrong you in the future. If you are expecting perfection in the pulpit, you will certainly be disappointed, but there is hope…
I must say that I personally have yet to meet a pastor who chose the dedicate his life to the ministry of Jesus Christ so he could have a lucrative career. Every pastor that I know (and I do know MANY) was called to the ministry. Our Father in heaven drew them near and asked them to help win souls (be a vessel), disciple new believers, and send them out to win more souls on a full time basis (no outside job). I know far too many men of character, men doing the will of God, to believe all that is being said here is the absolute norm.
These same men have sacrificed a great deal. Most have moved away from the comfort and support of family and turned down lucrative careers. They often live on very little. Still, they are generous with, yes, their money and their time. They give SO much time. These are not the men that you see on television begging for your money. These are men of God seeking the Lord’s will day by day.
Could these men do what they do and work another job full time? Absolutely not. They couldn’t continually answer phone calls in the middle of the night. They could not visit people in the hospital (They often spend time with not only their own congregants, but also with the members from a other congregations and such requests or favors are many.). They could not drop everything to counsel someone who is considering divorce or someone who is in financial trouble (The churches I know DO help.). They could not spend all night, with the cancer patient who was just given a grave diagnosis (true scenarios here). Crises simply do not stick to the 9-5 work schedule.
Believe me. Many, oh so many pastors earn their salaries. The hours tend to be terrible, the complaints many, the breaks few. Many do not get health insurance, housing allowances, bonuses, or any of the other things that you might expect.
So, why do they stick around? As you would hope, they do it for the Lord.
If these are not the men leading your particular church, I urge you to find a fellowship of believers trying to live out the life that God’s Word has laid out for us. Where you find a loving, unified group, you find a great leader, like the disciples, like the apostles. Some men are truly sent.
Hello Heather,
I appreciate your comments, and your respect for your pastor. I am glad to hear you are happy where you are, and you admire his dedication. I acknowledge your sincerity.
However, I have never met a pastor that you describe, and I have been in the church my entire life (over 50 years). I have visited many churches in my city, and state, and they are all the same. I have traveled to different states for meetings, and they are the same too.
What you described is not the norm. Every church is based on money, and people are plagued weekly for it. The church is a business now, and the pastor is the CEO. Money goes for salaries, and building costs, and there is really nothing left for the poor. Needy members are not helped. They are expected to pay tithes, since if they don’t, God will curse them. You cannot be a member of a church unless you pay tithes and offerings. The church is not there for you. You are there for the church. You cannot belong there without paying money.
There is paid staff, which are the only recognized ministers. Then there are all the free workers, who do not get paid, since they are not “called” like the ministers are.
It is an oppressive atmosphere. I cannot enter any church without an offering plate pushed under my nose. I have asked for help for others, and was rejected. They have other purposes for the money, like paying themselves.
If it was, our country’s morals would not be going down the drain, and we would still be a strong Christian nation.
Instead, we are a nation in sin, with ineffective pastors, whose congregations just sit there, week after week, and are not prepared, or willing, to share the gospel.
People hate Christians in this nation, not because we are Christians, but because we do not represent the real Jesus to them.
While pastors do not go into ministry for money, they are all well paid, with benefits, and they know that going in.
The church is a business now. That is why it is coming under judgment.
This website ministry is a full time effort. I am here almost 24 / 7. I am here about 80 hours a week – from about 5 am to 10 pm or later.
I never ask for money. I do not get paid. I give up a salary to be here for others.
To me, Jesus died for me a bloody death, tortured on the cross for my sins. How can I make money off his death? I have done nothing for the salvation of the world – only he has. I do not deserve to get paid.
I hope you can see my point. This is to in no way lessen the credit given your pastor for his ministerial efforts. I give him the credit he deserves.
@Heather, I think you are sorely missing the point here…we “Do Not Need” all this! If meeting together is done in spirit and truth we could do away with all these earthly man-made personal agendai driven programs and get on with the real mission…to win lost souls! I have not seen “soul winners” in decades!! I am in complete support of those commenting in this blog about how poorly and mis-managed the churches are in this current church age. I have been to nearly every church that advertises in my area and not one is a “Barean Church” and the majority of “going’s-on” in the church is fallible and questionable…Lastly, Small Groups are nothing more then “the clicks or in-crowd” social hook-up mirroring much the same as church…It goes something like this…Church is one of the loneliest places…You go in and are thought of as a newcomer singles out bf you even get a running start, you sit staring at the back of the heads of others facing forward, you applaud the elitist on stage, the performers, you hear a 20min sermon, pray for a few mins, and then throw a few dollars in the plate. After church, the social click and in crowds hook up for lunch while your left standing alone. The body of Christ was never meant to worship God in this format…We are in sad shape here…Most churches are in the habit of self-glorifying instead of worshiping a holy and righteous God. Do you ever remember a time coming away from church changed? Crying with Joy, trembling with fear, shook with excitement?? Thank you but I don’t need nor do I desire performers, bulletins, coffee etc…I want to worship God while I am in the sanctuary….NOT MEN!!
I’m sorry you have had this experience, but I have been in the church for 35 years, and what you describe has NOT been my experience, so I have to respectfully disagree. To make a blanket statement about churches and pastors is so dangerous and belittling to those who are truly working and seeking God’s will in every decision that is made. As I said before, churches are always going to be flawed, people are flawed. To expect a pastor to BE Jesus rather than to strive for His likeness places man on a pedestal that God did not create for him. I too have attended many churches, in different states, in an effort to find a proper place of worship. In my journey, I have found churches that have the feel that you talk of, but I have always been able to find a church that is earnestly seeking and living out God’s plan. Perfectly? Of course not. Expecting perfection will always lead to disappointment. We are called to love and forgive.
Is the offering plate passed in my church? Of course it is. Without it, people would not have a full time pastor who is available 24/7 and I mean 24/7. I respect and appreciate the work that you do here and your dedication to it; however, pstoring is unlike any other position in the church. The severe attacks from Satan are only evidence that they have great potential in furthering God’s kingdom.
Others help and minister too, however, it is at their leisure. They can often say, well, I have something going on or I have to work or I just can’t. Pastors seldom have such freedom. They tend to live in a constant state of crisis because they are responding to YOUR crisis in an effort to bring comfort and wisdom. I do not know anyone in the church that has such grave responsibility (and he is accountable to God for the flock) and is subject to such constant scrutiny. Not only is he constantly judged, but also his family, as if they all are supposed to be Jesus.
Benefits? Well, if you are part of certain groups, you get benefits; however, the pastors that I speak of do not belong to such groups and do NOT get any benefits. They barely get a paycheck. Lumping them all together, again, is demeaning to those who do not belong to this order.
The rest of the money goes back to to the congregation and the things that they approve. It pays for the building (if there is one), for utilities, for missionaries, for congregants in need. If you want to assemble together with other believers as we are called to do, chances are you will need to pay some kind of rent or fee for the building in which you meet. The collective helps with this. No one is esteemed higher than the other. No awards or special recognition is given for exceptional giving. No one is badgered for giving a small gift. Giving is between you and God, so it is not for anyone to judge.
Currently, our church of 20 supports 5 missionaries. Yes. Five. They are sent $100 each week to allow them to share the gospel where God has sent them. This is not something that the pastor mandated. We have had the privilege of meeting each of these missionaries and were prompted to give. To be able to do so is a great miracle because most of our congregants are of modest means.
We also participate in the community, have a donation box for the womens’ shelter, and have helped out families on a number of occasions. More than once, during this economic crisis, people have come into the church in need. We have filled tanks of gas, provided lunch, directed them to a larger church’s food bank, and paid utility bills. These are things that many churches do. All you need to do is kindly talk to you pastor. You may discover that so much more is being done than you had imagined.
Our church was led to care for the pastor and his family just as the other were led to provide for the apostles. Paul was a tent maker, but we have no indication of just how many tents he made in a year or exactly what percentage of his profits helped sustain him. How much was provided by the churches in which he preached? Paul was a missionary. Paul had no family. The issue of money is touched on, but there is no specific formula to follow.
We need to view our pastors as home missionaries because that is what they are. They were sent, just as Paul was because we are a sinful nation, because people need to hear the word of God. We are all called to share the gospel message; however, we get little done when we don’t have a good leader. The disciples were the leaders of the new church and they established leadership before they moved on. Then they appointed individuals to carry out their teaching and training.
When one views the church as a profit driven enterprise, I can understand how a person might be bitter about pastor’s salary. There are others, however, who view a salary as a means of caring for someone they love, someone who gives of themselves in a moment’s notice. They provide support so that the pastor can do the work that they ask him to do. Is that so terrible? A pastor is a servant just like you or me; yet he has a greater responsibility. Oh, so great. That is why so many churches are closing doors. People are fickle and it wears a man out.
If any of your readers are irate over the issue of pastor salaries, I urge them to examine their hearts. Are you upset about the money or that one person who wronged you? Is forgiveness needed? Do you view your money as God’s or do are you micromanaging? When we give a gift to someone, we don’t cling to that money. We view it as gone. Instead of obsessing over money, why don’t we pray over it as we give. I pray that each and every penny is used as God would intend it to be used. Whether my money helps buy groceries for the pastor or toilet bowl cleaner for the church bathrooms, I praise God.
HI Heather,
If your church needs your pastor 24/7, then this indicates that the church is full of immature people who cannot solve their own problems. This means the pastor is not equiping the saints, like he is supposed to do.
Mature sheep are trained and are helping others, not bothering one man. Mature sheep do not need a pastor. A pastor is only supposed to train new converts.
Also, a pastor is not a levite, so he is not entitled to the tithe. This is a business decision of the church. It has no biblical basis.
The church was originally established for fellowship, and the saints helping one another, because they were mature. New converts were quickly trained and sent out to evangelize. So the sheep were busier than the pastor. This is the way it is supposed to be. The sheep were full time, as much, or greater, than the pastor at that time. The job of ministry was not a single calling, while most just showed up on weekends. Since the sheep are trained now to think that it is the pastor’s job to do everything, the church is a failure to this society. But this is business. If the sheep mature and go out on their own, there will be no one to pay the pastor. So in stead, the sheep just show up on Sunday, and let the pastor do their job, since this is the way they are trained.
If your pastor is a home missionary as well, then how many salvation each week does he bring in?
Churches are closing doors because they are going out of business. It sounds like you have a big enough church, if it supports 5 missionaries. People are not obsessing over money. The pastors are. This is a weekly pursuit by the church….people are supposed to give of their free will, not have baskets passed constantly in front of them, with sermons coaxing them into it.
My money belongs to God and the poor. What is left over, I try to use to pay bills. I do not collect money from people who need me. I use my own money.
How much does your pastor get paid? If he makes more than the poorest person in the church, he gets too much. I am guessing he gets paid at least $70-80,000 a year…maybe as much or more than $100,000.
Hello Marianne,
I have been fortunate to have some time at my disposal this weekend, but I’m afraid this will have to be my last post on this matter. I appreciate the discourse.
Still, I have to disagree. Read 1 Corinthians 9:14 in context. Actually, read all of chapter 9. It addresses and refutes the very subject matter seen in this thread. Paul agrees with Galations 6:6, that pastors should be paid for their labor. He did not accept payment at Corinth because they were really struggling with the issue. He wanted to prove his intentions, prove his worth in an effort to minister and win them to Christ first. At the church in Ephesus, however, he DID accept payment. In fact, they paid him very well.
According to Acts 2:42, there are three main purposes or activities of the church. The church is to teach, provide a place for believers to fellowship, observe the Lord’s supper, and pray. Teaching indicates that the believers are not necessarily mature and the immaturity, as you mentioned, is not found just in new converts.
No one person constantly calls upon the pastor, but when you have even a small congregation, there is always someone in need. It may be as simple as the loss of a job which prompts a phone call of love and support. Is this not what we are called to do? When you mentioned people “bothering one man,” I had to smile for it reminded me of the son of God. What an honor it is for a pastor to be allowed to experience a little taste of His amazing ministry here on earth. Some believers are excellent at responding to the needs of the congregation while others are too young in their faith or too much in pain themselves to respond. I’m glad that people like yourself are willing to step in. We have many such individuals in our church as well.
Mature sheep DO need a pastor. A pastor is an elder, so his duties include peacemaking (Acts 15:1-2), praying and teaching (James 5:14 & Acts 6:2-4), watching out for the church in humility (1 Peter 5:1-4), and watching out for the spiritual life of the flock (Hebrews 13:17). This is a large, complex task. Taking all this into account, it is obvious that pastoral duties extend beyond just training new converts.
Also, if the church was so perfectly mature, why did Paul have to reprimand so often? We have his words of both encouragement and correction because the church still needed guidance after he left. There were issues that they were not able to wade through, conflicts they had trouble resolving without a more experienced and mature believer.
You asked how many people are led to Christ by my pastor each week. I know that my pastor intentionally goes out into the community to meet people, gets together with them, and shares the gospel with them. I don’t know of an exact number because he may rejoice in the addition of a new believer, but he is not caught up in numbers. How many would be sufficient? How quickly would they have to be converted to be viewed as a “success”? The work here is great and arduous. We live in a nation with many hardened hearts. It is said that it is the toughest mission field of all. I have seen people come to Christ quickly while others have submitted more slowly. Thankfully, heaven rejoices just the same.
As for a pastor not being a Levite, that is a moot point since the new testament church is not the same thing as the temple. The Lord our God tore the veil and does not dwell there any longer. We can quibble about tithes, offerings, or whatever, but the fact remains that we are to support our pastors. Whether or not you give 10% is up to you and your understanding of God’s directive, whether it is for the Israelites or the Gentiles or both. Our pastor does not dwell on percentages or certain numbers. In fact, our church does not make any requirements in this area. Our church functions within its means and if the money isn’t there, it isn’t there. In case you were wondering, you can become a member by professing in Jesus Christ and being baptized (does not have to be done at our church).
Oh. And as for an exact salary…try less than half of your lowest guess. This family of four is eligible for food stamps and state medical aid. Not only do they do NOT accept it, but they also give generously to the church and the community. This is not an exception to the rule. Like I said in my initial post, I know MANY pastors like this. I wish you knew them too.
Hebrews 13:17
HI Heather,
I wish you and your church well.
I still maintain that occasional offerings is not the same as the regular collection of tithes.
1Cor 9:14 was not referring to pastors, but to everyone who preaches the gospel. In today’s world, the congregation is excluded, and only “anointed” elders with a license are allowed to preach. The reward for preaching the gospel is saved souls.
Your pastor’s salary is not consistent with what you say he does with his money. I would need to be convinced with a tax form that he makes less than $35,000 a year. But, since the church agrees and supports him in his ministry, they like him and appreciate him, then people are happy in your church, and that is what counts.
I wish you blessings, provision, and security in the times ahead for this nation.
Oh, yes. This account is 100% accurate. It is only possible through the grace of our Lord and Savior. Do you doubt what He can do? This salary and less is quite common in the midwest. I know because I live here and I have seen the budget of our church and I have given the pastor his checks. Isn’t it amazing what the Lord can do.
Hi Heather,
The Lord can do a lot with a little. I live on $800/month with 2 kids, and no public help.
I forgot to mention that yes. 1 Cor 9:14 is referring to pastors. The verse prior refers to the Jewish priesthood. Thus, it is drawing a comparison and noting that the clergy too should be paid.
Clergy? There is no such thing as the clergy in the bible. There is simply the body and the Head that is Jesus Christ. Read 1Cor 14:26 to see what a meeting of believers should be like. Each one shares something.
1Cor 9:14 seems to be referring to those who make effort to proclaim the gospel. Who needs to hear the gospel? Is it not those who havn’t heard the gospel? Not people already saved sitting in a pew. This then would seem to be referring to anyone who take the gospel out to the unsaved masses.
I think there are many types of “Babylon” mentioned in the Bible, and we need to ferret out what each one means. There is one we are warned to come out of, in the end of days. This is because “she” has become a whore. The original Babylon was not a she, so this requires discernment to understand who “she” is. Many believe she is the Catholic Church, and I partly agree.
But we would be remiss if we did not assess what goes on in our modern Protestant churches, as well. To do this, perhaps we might look at the original Babylon to see why God judged them.
Babylon was ruled by a man named Nimrod. He was called, “A mighty hunter before the Lord.” While this probably meant he hunted game, we soon see he also hunted men in a different way. He caused them to build a tower, among other things. This established a “home base,” to gather around under him, instead of being nomadic and filling the earth. God showed His dispeasure in this by scattering them.
I see a parallel in this to our present churches, Protestant and non-denominational included. Whether the pastors realize it ornot, they arecmpeting for the largest gatherings. Their churches have become entertainment centers. The Gospel is watered down to become acceptable to all.
Jesus told us to count the cost of entering the Kingdom. I have not heard a sermon on this in my decades of watching altar calls. During a sermon, the pastor may make a joke of how the devil will attack a new believer, but the laughter at the joke will diminish the seriousness of the subject.
Is it possible that where we are told to “Come out of her my people” (Rev 18) is a message to us? Have our churches become a whore, a Babylon? We get saved, and in the process, we probably join a church. Since it is already operating, we assume it is blessed by God, and join in the activities and fellowship.
We see the good things the church is doing, but do we discern the motives the pastor has? Motives he/she might not even be aware of. Is this the church Paul described? We might think that since these are modern times and it requires different messages, that what we see is proper. But is it? Are we willing to look deeper and see we have missed the message of Paul?
This is serious, as it is about our souls and rewards. What will we say when we stand at judgment, if we find out we have missed the mark? DavWms
I agree with what has been said. I was in a big church, trying to tithe but as a single mother (with a disable child) could not afford to, and there were other issues. Is anyone else afraid to speak honestly to these misguided leaders. I want to but alot of people at my former church are rather defensive.
It says in the Bible to talk to brothers privately, should we go and say something or just dust ourselves off and leave
Hi mj
You can try to talk to them, but you have to realize that admitting any of this will destroy their entire entitlement system.
If they agree, they have to give up their pay check, and get a job, like everyone else.
They have to give up everything they spend the money on, and go back to bible ways.
You can try, but you’d better bring people with you that agree with you, because you will get a lecture that you are robbing God (which is not true).
MJ,
If your pastor has truly erred (as all humans are prone to do from time to time), humbly go to him and ask to discuss it in private. Ask questions. Gently, and kindly, ask for biblical backing. This is the way that we are called to confront one another whenever we have a conflict (Matt. 18:15). When a person walks in the door with a haughty attitude, defenses automatically go up, so pray before your meeting so that you might have a clean heart (Psa. 51:10). After speaking with him, examine any scripture noted, pray over it, and if you find God leading you to pursue the issue further, then take another person with you (not a gang or an army – Matt. 18:16). Pray after the second meeting as well and if you are so led, bring it before the church leadership for consideration (Matt. 18:17). This does not mean that you should take it to the entire church since that might cause an unnecessary disruption or division. The leadership should be allowed to deal with the matter. After all, if the biblical model is followed, they are appointed because of spiritual maturity and hopefully, they will exhibit such behavior. I realize that Matthew 18 doesn’t say to pray, but we are continually called to bathe all matters in prayer, to pray continually. Thus, one would be praying earnestly during such a conflict (1 Thess. 5:17; Eph. 6:18).
As for the specific issue that you mention, there is ample scripture to support caring for our pastors (Feel free to read my other posts.). Paul made a different decision for himself at a specific time, for a specific purpose. In 1 Corinthians 9, he is evidently responding to questions or criticism regarding his work status. He defends his choice, but is also adamant about the right of all kinds of laborers to be paid (“Who ever goes to war at his own expense?…” v. 7). Note that in verse 12, he says “Nevertheless,” meaning, he supports all the arguments stated previously. In verse 14, he indicates that “…those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.” This means that if you preach the gospel, you should receive compensation for your labor. He previously referenced those that “minister the holy things” which indicates that he is referring to pastors and not all believers. This verse lines up with all that he just mentioned. Some people interpret verse 14 as meaning that pastors should not receive compensation, but that simply doesn’t follow Paul’s overall argument. We need to read the entire thought and not just one line.
I would encourage you to talk to your pastor about your financial situation and how you are feeling since you seem to be quite burdened by this issue and your financial situation. Perhaps he can help. You may be surprised to find that the expectations regarding your tithe are, well, not completely true. Satan often deceives us in these areas and it is not unusual to feel guilt and condemnation where there is none. My intention is not to make you feel embarrassed or to judge or to even think that I know you even a little. It’s just that I, unfortunately, have been the victim of deception in this area and I tend to think I’m not alone. I used to scrutinize, judge, and even envy the way that even a modestly paid pastor would spend their money like I was the Gestapo or something. When I examined my heart, I realized that I was in error. I was trying to control. It was ME who was in love with money – the money that I had supposedly given God. I was shocked when I realized this, that I could have very little money and still be more or less in love with it, making it my idol. Yuck! Currently, I am a homeschooling mom trying to help manage my husband’s small income day by day, so it’s not my financial status that has changed. It was my heart that was changed and for me, it was no small feat! I am SO thankful for a loving, forgiving God and I pray that others do not fall into this same pit.
God bless you in your journey of faith.
I actually did ask fo financial help, not a lot, the cost of a good pair of shoes, and they said “At this time we can’t do it” This church has 40million profit so….Look I don’t care really. At first I was a bit angry but then I left, told my group leader why and went to a smaller church. And do you know what happended I have been receiving financial blessings from other sources, so much so that presently I am able to actually go out for dinner (cheap dinner) haven’t done that in months. So I just kept praying and telling God what Im worried about and presently I have been blessed not just with money either.
Praise God for some relief from your overwhelming burden. May you continue to be blessed inside and out!
Being good stewards of God’s provision is a huge undertaking for any church. It is disappointing, but not surprising, that not all churches are keeping a biblical perspective. Like we are shown with King David, sin can get a foothold in even the most devoted of hearts. May you find ways to use your experiences, good and bad, to bless others.
There are good pastors teachers at mega-churches too, lets not forget that, desiring to do God’s Word but it seems the main leaders of these churches are infallible, put on pedastils, seem to more rich than the rest of us. Not that Im envious, I was brought up with money and we were Christians but my parents weren’t “flashy” about it all the time, drove cheap cars etc and gave to others, tried to help the ccommunity through charities. My father lost most of his money through a property development and a shonky lawyer but we are not rich now but rich in other ways, very close family, God fearing.
Anway I thought I might write anon to my former church, in love, I kind of feel sorry for people going off track with God.
I think there needs to be a balance in everything some of the views in this post are extreme. Paul was not married. Should that pastor not be able to take care of his children. Should he give all to the poor while his own kids starve? That is why a lot of pastors children rebell because of lack of balance. Yes there will ALLWAYS be people in need. If Jesus when He was on the earth could not meet the need of every poor person He who came in contact with His ministry will pastors now be able to. I think yopu major on minor trying to set up laws of man and doctrines that are of men and are not in the bible though done in good faith can be a source of bondage. What you should be praying is for your pastors simply this: that they hear from the Lord and be given the grace to obey. To be led by the spirit. Let them do what God is telling them to do not what anyone thinks they should do . We are to be led by the spirit not doctrines of men. The Lord may require you give today, receive tomorrow? I am not God neither the Holy Spirit the leader are you?
dear Oma
The bible says that any man who will not support his family is like an infidel. So, if he needs money for them, he should get a job, like everyone else in the church.
Everyone has a certain gift. This is to minister on behalf of God, not to benefit oneself. Why should someone who pastors get paid, when others don’t? Turning a calling of pastor into a business with a salary is more of a doctrine of man, than giving of oneself freely.
Offerings should be for the poor. The poor should not be made to give offerings to support those who do not work.
you said:
The bible says that Jesus met the need of everyone who came to him.
Modern pastors and churches do not do this, although some do to some extent.
Very well said. The collection is for the needy saints, not to take care of ministers and their families. I can see maybe giving a little support if they travel but not take care of them. They need to work just like Jesus and the Apostles did. I am sure many would not preach if you take away the pay so that lets you know what is important to them.
Oma,
You seem to have a good understanding of the character of our Father in heaven. Perhaps you are already familiar with the passage, but if not, check out 1 Corinthians 9. It is very clear on this matter. Also, feel free to read my above postings in May of last year to find even more passages to support providing for our pastors. In my experience, those who are the most bitter about pastor salaries have been deeply hurt by someone in the church. This grieves my heart, especially when I know of so many men (along with their entire families) who are seeking God’s will day by day, sacrificing all to serve Him. It is so dangerous to make overgeneralizations about any position in God’s family and we MUST back up all our conclusions with scripture, not just a little piece, but the entire thought shared in the Word. Over and over again, our Lord provided for those he appointed. Think of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, Noah, Paul, Timothy, James, and on and on. Paul’s writings are consistent with this idea and practice. Our God is not a God of confusion. He is not inconsistent. Thank you for supporting your pastor and especially, for praying for him. I have many, many friends in the ministry who appreciate that above all else.
I am certainly not against giving as much as possible to church. What I am against is the pressure put on people if they don’t give as much as the pastor thinks they should give. Most Bible translations say that you should give as you prosper. If you are in low-income and have to struggle just to purchase food and keep your home – you are not prospering!
The United States (as far as I know) is the only country (maybe Canada) who teaches a 10% giving. I know this, because I have contacted churches in Germany, Australia, Denmark, etc. and they don’t even talk about a 10% amount. This is an Old Testament law and I don’t believe it is for today.
When the Pastor makes %35,000 plus housing allowance, plus social security, plus retirement, plus medical – it totals at about $73,000. I you only make $1,000 or less a month – you can not be expected to go without food and make sure the pastor can go out and eat, take ski vacations and travel to other countries. I think that people should give what God lays on their heart to give and what they can afford and not put pressure on people. When they do – they take away the worship that an individual receives as he gives willingly and cheerfully of what he/she feels they can. God nudges hearts, but I believe he nudges them accordingly as to what He knows they have.
I always write a check, but I think from now on, I will give in cash. We have 2 people who count the money, and I really don’t feel they should know who gives what!
hi maxine
The beginning salary for a pastor of a small church is about $40,000. The mean salary for a pastor in the USA is about $85,000.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouthtmls/swzl_compresult_national_CS21000010.html
With the bonuses and benefits added in, it is about $128,000.
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_salaryresults.asp?hdSearchByOption=0&hdSearchByOption=0&hdKeyword=Pastor&hdJobCategory=CS01&hdZipCode=&hdStateMetro=&hdGeoLocation=U.S.%20National%20Averages&hdJobCode=CS21000010&hdJobTitle=Pastor&hdCurrentTab=&hdNarrowDesc=Clergy&joblevelcode=
Something to think about when you give your next offering.
I would like to know where did you come up with this figure for a salary because the bible clearly does not say anything like this. This is mankinds way of making money or pimping the church. No Way this kind of money should be paid out. The average church is doing more than what God requires the saints to do. The offering is for the needy saints, not for ministers and others to be living off of. They can’t even help the needy because the pastor/ministers are getting it.
jeanette
the salaries come from an online link given in my comment.
also I have first had knowledge, seeing monthly reports going to local headquarters.
just type in pastor and the location, and you can pull up a salary.
the more tithes they bring in, the bigger the salary.
Big time pastors are sporting lear jets, choppers, limousines, BMWs. Living in big mansions like movie stars in Hollywood. Where does the money comes from? Of course!! it comes from extorting money from their church members thru tithes and offerings and other money making ventures using their members. Find out for yourself who they are and you’ll be amazed! Not even the pope at Rome lives like that. Not even a medium size business can afford to buy a lear jet.
Marianne, no pastor I know makes this kind of money. In fact, many pastors I know have second jobs just to make ends meet (driving school buses, teaching music lessons, selling vacuum cleaners, working overnights at warehouses). The rest make enough to take care of needs, but little more. In interpreting these findings, you need to consider that “average” factors in mega churches. You have to be so careful with statistics, especially those generated by worldly sources. In so many, many cases, there are no benefits, there is no health insurance, there is no retirement. I personally know people who have given up lucrative careers, even entire companies, to serve, struggling to start churches in a nation bent on serving self, and this is how we treat them? Do we get a bad taste in our mouth just because the pastor’s wife buys a new pair of shoes (even though she probably found them on sale for $10)? Do we think the pastor should only buy used cars (even though he many have been saving up for years)? I mean where does it end? How would you feel if someone treated you in this same manner, scrutinizing every purchase, every decision you made as if you were suppose to clear every personal purchase through some committee first? Where in scripture does it require us to police our shepherds in this way? My heart breaks because all I hear is bitterness.
If a person is looking to find a reason not to tithe, he will not have to look very far. Excuses are everywhere. I’m not telling anyone how much to give. That’s between you and God, but if I were to guess, I would say that the most giving people I know are giving 15 or 20% and the vast majority of these cases, the incomes are very modest. And guess what? They are the most joyful people I know and God continues to pour blessings upon them for not their dollar amount, but for their attitude in giving, for their faith. We all need to ask God what He would have us do and then do it. If we are confident and secure in our relationship with Him, giving reminders at church won’t make us feel guilty. Giving a tithe will represent a time of sharing rather than a time of grief. We will have the assurance that we are right with our Father and that’s what matters above all else.
Let’s form our attitudes based on scripture and not what a statistic has to say or what some other country is or isn’t doing. We are to care for our pastors and each church needs to determine how best to do that. Don’t let this issue tear your congregation apart.
Dear Heather,
The pastors here (in NC) do make that kind of money, and live well, and they have small churches.
Being a pastor is not a full time job. They only work on Sundays, and maybe one other day to prepare, although they might be “around” or “available” in some way. Since the word should be spontaneous out of anyone full of the word, it should not take long to prepare a sermon.
I think it is appropriate that they have a regular job during the week. Paul of Tarsus did. He made tents. We have to remember that none of the apostles, who really were full time, received any salary at all.
Occasionally, people would make an offering, but no one collected tithes in the early church. Any tithes went to the temple in Jerusalem until it was destroyed. People ATE their tithes at the temple, as ordained by God. Once destroyed, the tithes stopped, because the only place allowed to bring tithes was the temple.
Today the tithe is a business practice used to pay the pastor and a mortgage on the church. But it is not a biblical use of the tithe.
I hope this makes sense. I think what any individual church wants to do is up to them, but usually it is not the congregation’s decision, but a rule that is already in place when they join. If they agree to this rule, then there is no argument about the tithe there, and they are free to do what they want.
If you want to pay your pastor, then that is fine with me.
Jesus was against religion and the Pharisees in His day and He has not changed His mind today. Big business churches are nothing more than man made religious entities and Pastors that are at the head of the coorporate ladder are modern day Pharisees. Absolutely nothing has changed, its only gotten worse. Anyone whose eyes has been opened by God to this reality has Spiritual eyes to see the truth. There can be no argument when its right on the pages of scripture. I don’t understand how believers in Christ and those led of the Spirit cannot understand this fact. It makes one question who are truly believers that are led of the Spirit. God says,”You will know who belong to me by the Fruits of My Spirit”. This should tell the body of Christ who and what is real and who and what is not. When God led Moses to rescue His people from Egypt and slavery, they had to be purged of worldly man made stuff. All they had was what God allowed, which was very little. All of their provisions was examples of Jesus and Him alone. The Taberbernacle for worship which was also a metaphor of Jesus was never stationary, as it is not to be stationary today. Men have turned the body of Christ into their church to be run how they say. God gave more than enough examples of what was to come and be, but as we can see, religious leaders want all things their way not Gods way. Many will say to Jesus one day that they did it all for Him, but in return, he will say He never knew them because their works were evil and of their father the devil.
spw
amen to that
I believe all of our commenting about pastors and their salaries is a moot point. Main stream Christians in westernized Christianity are more concerned about “Tradition,” emotions and opinions than biblical truths. Our Messiah warned us all about, “the tradition of men” and the danger associated with it. At this point we all have bigger concerns we should be addressing, than what the Hirelings and other money gobblers are doing and the sheep who follow so blindly. The Heavenly Father is getting ready to JUDGE ALL OF THIS (including all of us) and we will see the truth shortly.
very true.
Marianne,
As with any job, what you see from the outside is far from the reality of the position. You can only know or speak with total authority once you’ve been in their shoes (and even then, there are so many variables). I used to teach in the public schools and absolutely loved it. Now, I teach my children at home. You’d think that I would have the easiest job ever, but the reality is that even though I have fewer students (but more preps) it’s the toughest job I’ve ever had, but I keep at it because it’s what God has called me to do. I have sweet, well-behaved, amazing kids, but the complexity of my position is far greater than I ever could have imagined.
A serious pastor takes his messages seriously and takes the time to prepare them. Jesus could “go off the cuff” because He was God. Paul had extensive Biblical training and continued to study and to write, write and write some more. We have no real indication of how much time he spent making those tents and since he was supporting only himself, he needed far less income than a man with a wife and family. It’s really apples and oranges since there’s no way to fairly compare that culture with the demands of ours. That’s why we need to lean on scripture.
To know God’s heart, you need to study His word and that takes time and plenty of prayer. Unfortunately, today’s seminaries pale in comparison to past seminaries, so it is important for pastors to continue their studies, seeking wisdom and clarity that can only come from God. I don’t want my pastor to “go off the cuff.” I want him to be well read. I want him to have really prayed over the words that he is sharing with us.
If you want to see someone grow to be a spiritual giant, take a young man who feels called to pastor (and is earnestly seeking the Lord), and watch God mold and shape him in ways you never thought possible. I have seen this over and over again. In fact, there is more than one young man in our church right now who God is clearly preparing for ministry. His is moving in our little congregation more than I’ve seen in most churches (and we have less than 30 members).
Our pastor has spent a lot of time with these young men, discipling, answering question after question as he points them to the truth in God’s word. As they have grown, they have fewer and fewer questions because they now have the tools and confidence to find the truth in God’s word by themselves. It is SO exciting to see them reaching out to others and to hear their burden for the lost! This is the model of the new testament church. And as we’ve discussed before, Paul is abundantly clear that we should provide for the men that God has called (1 Cor. 9).
Without the pastor taking the time to set up lunch meetings with the men close to their work places, this growth would have come much more slowly. The other scenario would involve fewer meetings or many evening meetings at the expense of the pastor’s family (What kind of message does this sent to the pastor’s children?). All this would be impossible with a full-time, outside job. I’ve seen ministries severely crippled when the pastor is pulled away like that.
Jesus did not leave us to our own wanderings, he provided shepherds to lead and guide. To not properly care for them is the most unloving thing I can think of.
As for the tithes, well, money was collected. Period. You can call it whatever you want. Giving is a part of Christian life (1 Cor. 16:1-2; 2 Cor. 9:7) and it’s quite often in the form of money. Thus, the many discussions about money in the Bible. Like I said in my last note, give whatever is put on your heart, but please ask God about it. Don’t look to your own heart. We know that one cannot be trusted (Jeremiah 17:9).
We need to stick to what we know, what scripture does tell us. Counting the references to offerings is unlikely what God intended us to do. He told us, so we are to do it. In John 21:25, we are told, “And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.” Surely, there were many more healings, wonderful lessons, and yes, love offerings.
Hi heather
I will always respect your opinion and views. I guess we see this differently. As long as people are satisfied with their decision, that is what counts.
As a former full-time Children’s Pastor, let me share my observations. I thought I was “called” into ministry so I did what many people do and attended seminary. The problem is–is that every follower of Christ is called into ministy and the lie is that only pastors do ministry. I certainly did not become a pastor for the money because the salary was not great–in fact we ran budget deficits as a household for the approximately 6 yrs that I was a pastor relying on a dwindling savings account instead. May I add that the Senior Pastor was well-paid however. Notwithstanding the finances, I also felt uncomfortable with people addressing me as “pastor” because it only reinforced the division between clergy and laity. We say we believe in the Priesthood of all Belivers but the praxis of what we we hold to be true is noticeably missing in most congregations. This led met to conclude that the greatest spectator sport on Sundays is not NFL football but our Sunday worship sevices where programming is the main event and even if the Holy Spirit left the building, hardly anyone would notice. (However, if Elvis left the building, people would have noticed; yuck,yuck). Tithes went into the building fund and it was much easier for the church to accept your money then to get it back if you or others had needs. I have yet to see a church that gives money back to their own congregants on a regular basis. After being in the pastorate for those few years, it did not make sense to me anymore so I left the traditional church and have not been back since. The church did not mirror what I saw in the NT. I did not see 1 Cor 14:26 take place but saw only a few people in paid positions exercise their spiritual gifts while the rest of the congregation watched. Fortunately, I had a previous career that I could go back to. Most pastors even if they realize that something is wrong with the church system, have no other occupation to rely on because they have no experience or education doing anything else.
hi stuart,
Thanks for your testimony and comment. I am always saddened when I hear of problems people have been through. I hope all is well with you now. God bless you.
The enemy has conspired against this great God fearing nation and the nations of the earth:
-There is none to stand in the gap and intercede for the people of the Lord. All seek their own gain. People roam over the mountains like sheep without a Sheppard. But the Lord God of Hosts will not allow the mischief of the evil one.
-The people relied on Corporate America for an unfailing check and have not prepared for these times. Corporate America became greedy, therefore transferring all the work the people had to places where they can profit not a 100% but over a 1000% if possible. They used the people to extract the sketches of what it took to build this great nation. Your children engineered the trains, the factories, the mining machines. Yet all has been taken, and the people are left to be slaves to greed and be consumed.
-The Government needs complimentary support we can provide. Governance is countered by selfish interests, legal manipulation and corruption. Blindly and unwilling they have been used in the exodus of Jobs, manufacturing and wealth to greener pastures.
Where there is no vision the people perish. The country suffers for lack of knowledge to decipher the times. Where is the Church, the Body of Christ, and the Leadership of the Church?
-Church arise encourage the people. The state does not want to stand with you but you can stand for the People. Provide Manufacturing skills, help reopen factories, restore trade with developing countries. Quit criticizing the Government; use the little support they provide grow the country. “Occupy till I come” said the Lord Jesus Christ, engage for God’s sake.
Watch what you listen in the News-media; Despite our advanced education, there has never been a people so misinformed as ours. Distortion of facts and control of knowledge as this is worst than Communist propaganda in the Cold War era.
-Help the people with raw material procurement, import and exporting. The world still buys and sells, or else China would not still be in business, we alone willow in politics and speculative financial demagogies. You can still afford homes, if only there were jobs and home values were not manipulated. China prizes our products, Africa, Asia and Mediterranea still need what we make, and Europe wants a competitor.
-Gather your strength, resources and knowledge. For the sake of the body of Christ, the Land and the People we will provide engineers, researchers and developers in any field there is. Engage for sake of the people. Contact us: vpinc@mail.com
I am a preacher/Apostle and I love this posting! Thank God! Its about time! I’ve been preaching the gospel since October 3,1993 and I don’t get paid and don’t want to be paid. I want the body to be blessed not burdened! If money should be taken up it should be given to needy in the assembly. the church should feed the church, not the foodstamps Government! I love this! Hallelujah! The churches now a days are just business owned by the Pastors. The offerings seem to be there money that they control. Like the government creating debt and saying we’re the slaves that have to pay it back with our lives, or property or both. See UNITED STATES (dba corporation). I was an ordained deacon before I was called to preach, and I’ve dealt with church money,offerings,tithes,the treasury on the board of directors ect ever since 1992. I know money and the churches.. ? I wish or desire that the LORD would come quickly or the anti christ would come quickly so that the true church will be weeded out and all these church corporations, organizations,dba’s,assumed name certificates businessses that are called the work of God would be destroyed and the pure church Of Jesus Christ will remain standing and meeting in homes, and under trees, and in wonderful places all over America and the world. Hallelujah!
In regard to some big churches where people complain they are getting paid too much… say a church of 20,000 where the leader may earn $350k… no lets crank it and say 500k a year.
Now lets examine a small church pastor of 70 people who gets the usual $45k stipend (like where I used to belong too). Apart from the obvious amount of work and responsibility the first has over the second consider this…
Large church example costs each member = $25 a year
Small church example costs each member = $643 a year
Now whos complaining that the small church folk are getting ripped off? No one, because they don’t THINK about what happens in their little congregations actual outgoings.
To those that work and preach, fantastic. But I think your worth being paid, if you actually feed people who are constantly pulling on you to feed them more and more depth and get them motivated to go out and reach people. Frankly I can’t understand why pastors need to work a job unless their preaching is so bad that no one comes to hear them or they do a 20 minute sermon on a Sunday and no other work. How anyone can run a church of 400+ people and not be full time I don’t know. If it is a small church that has always been small then there is a glaring problem. Jesus said build my church, he didn’t say just maintain what someone else built. Talents should increase!
Thats why I have no problem with my Pastor who works long hours and ensures all the ministries are run correctly and who seeks God for new revelation for every service 2-3 times week.
hi kiwi
I have never heard a sermon series that was worth 500 K a year. It does not matter how large the church is, pastors get paid excessive salaries.
There are billions of people who have full time jobs, and they do not make that kind of salary. My last job was full time, and I did not make that much, and I am an educated person. I worked 12 hours a day.
If your pastor makes a rich mans salary, then he has gotten his reward already. A large salary is unnecessary, and wasteful. He is in it for the money. The test is, if you offered him 45K, would he still care about you?
He is not a pastor. he is a CEO. You do not have a church. You have a business.
The pastor owns the church!! He’s the CEO, the President, the treasurer, etc. he’s the dictator! Nobody questions him!
Rev Marshall. Can I ask something. You, who wish Christ would come back early to fix things meet in a home or under trees, right?
I mean for you to be in a building makes you a hypocrite doesn’t it?
You are not an Apostle. Apostles build. What have you built that you didn’t inherit? I’m all ears.
Heather,
I went to a seminary (actually graduated as the student body president) and I know how the vast majority of my good friends feel about money…..it’s the number one issue! I have had several good friends turn down positions simply because they knew they could get a better salary at another church. The Bible says you cannot serve both God and mammon. As long as someone’s paycheck depends on their spirituality, it will ultimately dictate their faith. Yes, there are some genuine souls who serve God and get paid, but they just good people in a bad system. We wife ministers to local strippers and tells me that the club owners treat their girls with more respect than most employers, does their kindness justify the sex industry? No!
Also, their is no justification whatsoever for a church to only have a single pastor. Could you imagine a pastor sharing his salary and authority with another pastor?m (not his employees the youth pastor and music pastor) christ explicitly states that He alone is te head of the church; for a single man to claim to be the head of his local body of believers is blasphemy.
Rob,
It is a shame that so many leave seminary without a deep love for Jesus Christ and the call He has set before all believers. Youth and inexperience can make people say and do foolish things and we can only pray that these young people will turn away from those ideals and seek His will whatever that may be. The Bible talks about fools and the foolish again and again which just indicates the power of our sin nature. Also, young men are often fearful of being thought an infidel which is a very valid concern, bu one to keep in its proper perspective (1 Tim. 5:8).
Regardless of our observations and experiences, we need to test everything with the Word of God and that’s where I’ve tried to steer previous conversations. When someone talks about a pastor being the head of a body of believers, he is most certainly not implying that the pastor is replacing the headship of Christ (Col 1:18). If you read my notes from last March in their entirety, this is not at all what is being suggested. I may be wrong, but I think your concern is mainly one of semantics.
The justification for a body of believers having a pastor is a Biblical one. 1 Tim, 2 Tim, and Titus were written as an encouragement to overseers of the church and provides instruction in the organization of the church, church discipline, appointing elders, etc. (Titus 1:5; 1 Tim. !:3). For more Biblical evidence, see my entry from May 2009. Personally, I don’t envy those in these position at all (Acts 20:28; James 3:!). If you want to really get Satan’s attention, just become a soul-winning pastor. Yet, the knowledge that the heaven rejoices with each new soul keeps things in their proper perspective. Just imagine how many rewards believers will lay at the feet of Jesus one day!
Blessings,
Heather
If you have such a “biblical” standard for pastor and many people are “amen”ing to that, are those people “amen”ing to the same bible that tells them that “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”? Are the same people willing to share all they have with one another (Acts 2:44-45)?
hi Dennis
I am not sure if your question was directed to me or the person who left a comment above me.
In case it was directed to me, here is my response:
I provided scriptures for my view, so I would say I had a biblical foundation for what I said.
I have denied myself to follow the Lord, and I do share what I have with others. I sit here, 24 /7, and never ask for money, because I do it out of love for Jesus and the Word.
I have sacrificed a career to write bible studies, witness, and counsel people. The reward of souls is my reward. It is a labor of love.
God bless you.
Absolutely, Dennis. Our family has given up the comforts of family, money, convenience, a stable career, etc. to do what we do in the name of Jesus Christ. Thankfully the Lord, in His love and mercy, provides amply in the most amazing and unexpected ways (not in the world’s eyes, but that is not our filter).
We are constantly being conformed to the image of Christ which means we are by no means perfect, but we strive to learn and grow day by day. I am thankful for His guidance and daily instruction and am constantly humbled by the depth of His love for each and every one of us.
Right now, my children are doing memory work and it is so fitting – Romans 12:3.
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”
I am nothing without the love of Jesus Christ, the one who saved me. I can do nothing, understand nothing, without the guidance of the Holy Spirit which He so graciously bestowed upon me the day I said “yes” to Him. May we all continue to allow Him to work in and through us as we strive to understand His teachings for a more abundant life.
Blessings,
Heather
I have two old lifelong friends that are or were raised and involved with the church up here in Toronto, Ontario. One has become woefully disillusioned with the church, having attended several, and having watched the “clutch” at the buck, the power plays and the “corporate mentality” often observed, relative to the ministers and leaders and those under them.
The other one is the pastor of a small church and sincere in his desire to lead others to the Lord. He and I have lunch about four times a year, and during those lunches he lets his hair down with me given I’m an old summer camp buddy and that we have many years and miles between us. His take on the matter is he himself has become both jaded and disillusioned. He has told me in confidence that “Head Office” has expectations of each “CEO” and that there are essentially quotas in place for church growth but all too often “church growth” seems more to be code speak for “profit”. If they don’t grow the churches adequately, they are literally left to sink. In fact, certain charismatic pastors have been carefully provided key placement in certain communities where it is felt their style will draw membership and “grow” the church in that area. “Ego” is enticed for such proposals and my friend has come out and told me of a few instances where one of these charismatic types tried to be a hero, suffered burn-out and have sought out a small congregation to work with, under the pretenses that the bigger game and closer ties to “Head Office” and its agenda were not what they originally envisioned when signing up for leadership. Having spent significant time in the corporate world, this all sounds extremely corporate to me.
Oh yeah, that summer camp I used to work at, it was a chain of ten camps run by evangelical television network up here in Ontario. We used to lead soul after soul to Christ at campfire back in the early to mid-80’s. Children from all walks of life. That evangelical television network up and decided to cast astray that chain of camps back in January, while in the meantime their network has added such programming as “Alf”, “Mad About You” and “Full House”. The location I attended lay dormant this past summer, with nary a young soul giving cause to Angels to sing and dance. All this after yet another former camp friend offered to run the place, leave her business and sell her home….but she was told she’d have to pay an amount that was essentially unreachable…..for property and buildings that were originally donated by Christians with a vision to see lost souls find salvation.
Yeah, we all got to eat, that is a reality. But the hard and fast reality is that we’ve allowed ourselves to be hijacked….in slow, comfortable motion. God help us all.
hi Michael
Yes, this is all very sad to hear. The kingdom of God was never about money or corporate power.
That is why I never ask for donations here.
When I think people are making money off the persecution, suffering and bloody death of Jesus, it makes me shutter.
His death was never meant to fiance peoples careers.
No wonder the world mocks us now.
We all have often seen good people lose their way and go down dark roads. People have been doing this from the very beginning – Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Saul, David, the Israelites over and over and over again. The list is long and there are certainly more, but for the Lord to share it all would take forever. We just get the highlights.
In 1 Timothy 6:10, we are told that the “Love of money is the root of all evil.” Having money or using money was not the problem, for the disciples or apostles were provided for in a variety of ways. It’s more a matter of the heart. One can have no money and love money – long to have it too, resent those who have it, etc.
Throughout church history, we have seen great men rally the church and then watched in dismay as subsequent leadership led the people down an unbiblical path. Through the reading of Paul’s letters, we learn that it was happening even in his day. We might think, “How is that possible considering all the eyewitness accounts?” The reality is that Satan is a crafty fellow. He will twist God’s word in the minds of even the seemingly most devout of believers and use the desires of our hearts to work against the Lord. He will feed us lies about our mission, about our worth and capabilities.
So, no matter what we see. No matter how the world has failed us, we must turn to the Lord for wisdom and strength. When we look to the world for encouragement, we will be disappointed again and again. There will be ample examples of abuse and hurt. That doesn’t mean His plan is a flawed one. We need to continue to pray above all else that these people might turn from sin, that they might again do the work of God. As for us, we must press on in spite of all. It’s exhausting to say the least, but He will give us the strength to continue.
good advice. god bless you.
You know, reading through these posts, what saddens me most, Marianne, is that you somehow don’t seem to want to acknowledge that there are pastors in this country, though they may be few, who truly serve the Lord “full time” and do it for almost nothing. You simply cannot put the kind of blanket statements that you write on all pastors. Don’t get me wrong, I agree completely with you that the majority of pastors in this nation get paid too much and do not use the money the way that God would want them to use it. There is surely much corruption in the church, and I would be the first to speak against it. However, just to give you an example, the pastor of my church in Denver, Colorado, lives on very humble means. And he is truly serving the Lord “full time”. On the days that he is not preaching or praying with people in church, he is out on the streets in downtown and on college campuses preaching to people and pleading with them to repent and turn to Christ, and is in a very real sense persecuted for it. But that is what God has called him to do. I myself know that God has called me to be a pastor and preach His Word, and God has used this pastor immensely in my life, and countless lives of others. Trust me, he is not being paid much, but what he is being paid allows him to have two small meals a day and a tiny one-bedroom apartment for him and his wife, in the worst part of town that you can think of. Personally, knowing that my life will be devoted to preaching God’s Word and ministering to people, I would be happy doing that even if i have to sleep out on the street, and just eat a meal of rice once a day. So please, I just beg you, to not think that all pastors or churches in this country are the same. Yes, many are selfish, but there are also those who are fully given to what the Lord has called them to, which it would not be possible for them to do if they had another full time job like most people.
hi yonas
I accept the exception to the general pattern.
The post is not critical of good pastors who are in ministry to serve the Lord.
The post is not critical of good pastors who are in ministry to serve themselves.
Yonas,
it’s true…that’s why churches should help each other not only in prayers but financially as well specially those pastors and missionaries who quit their job and do full time in the ministry. We can’t prove that we really care unless we act and show help. To God be the glory…
Brothers and Sisters in Christ We Need To Get Real!!!
Today’s Church is a non-profit 501c3 goverment sactioned organizationed. WE NEED TO WAKE UP. This is not hte biblical definiation of the church. WE THE BODY OF CHRIST ARE THE CHURCH. WE ARE THE TEMPLE; not some 501c3 organizations santioned by government. WE DONT NEED TO BE GOVERNMENT SANTIONED TO PREACH THE GOSPEL. CHRISITANS JUST OPEN YOUR MOUTHS.
amen
I was just talking to someone last night about the 501c3.
If that did not exist now, we would have no churches, because everyone wants a salary.
so they are motivated by money, not by the call of god.
Dear friends,
Give the poor the gift of life
• Visit our websitewww.holyoneofgod.com at free of cost in which you can have a glance on the social services.
• We feed the poor orphans and the old aged people with the little what we have but most of them starve for food still and I am helpless so I pray to God to bless these people with sufficient food.
• Hence, a humble request to all of you to donate a dollar for each orphan so that they can have their meal for a day.
• We are running a welfare organization for poor people. Our projects are as follows
*Free food supply *Rice and wheat distribution * Cloth distribution to poor people * Educational support programmes* Free medical camp and medicine distribution * Free note books and text books distribution * S.C & Tribal community development program.
Thank you.
Kindly send your favorable donations
State Bank of India (SBI) Contact:
Branch code : 0907 SNEHASAHA ORPHANAGE
Branch Pin Code IFSC:SBIN0000907 Door Num:26 – 1- 43,
Bank Account No : 11046483437 Near R.T.C complex,
M I C R Code : 533002402 Ramchandrapuram
For the credit of Ravi Kanth Lanka East Godavari District,
Phone: +91 – 9391146445 PIN: 533255
Andhra Pradesh
South India
First Name : Ravikanth
Last Name : Lanka
Door No : 26 – 1- 43,
Town / City : Ramachandrapuram
District : East Godavari District
State : Andhra Pradesh
Pincode ; 533255
Country : INDIA
I’d like to apologize for the remarks I made last November in this thread. They were not completely written in the spirit God would intend of me and to be clear, I am not completely versed on all of the details behind the closure of that summer camp, nor did I take into account the dedication and calling of the sincere pastors everywhere who need to earn a living to provide for their families and homes. It was wrong of me to insinuate that there was a business “bottom line” behind every change to and unfortunate closure of God’s outreach. The variables are ever changing and God is not in retreat, His plan is perfect. As for those in the ministry, I speak about those that have dedicated their lives and have not been seduced by the “bottom line” mentality, I thank you for doing something eternally meaningful. I am in no position to judge who merits God’s grace and who does or does not deserve $$$ or $$$$ per pay period. We all have to eat and we need to eat in order to move forward, whether we are constructing a building or feeding and leading a flock. I love you all without even knowing you. We (I) need to read into everything and think things out, and let God handle the rest.
God bless you, Michael.
It is great to know that there are still believers in Christ who believe when he sent out the Apostles to preach the Word Of God he states,freely ye have received, freely give.This is the perfect spoken word of Jesus Christ.
hi brother Jimk
My hope is that we all imitate Christ. May it be so very soon.
I am on Marianne`s side. The problem with today`s church is that we look nothing like the Apostolic church. We need to learn more about the early church and try to imitate it. Eventhough people and customs have changed the word of God was sealed in the first century and we can`t “adapt” it to our times.
I am a physician in IL. About a year ago I opened a free medical clinic for individuals without insurance. I did this through the church I belonged to, to try to speed the paperwork of state registrations. I spend over $2000 monthly in overhead, and get very small donations that merely sufice for a water or electric bill, but I do it anyways because I feel that it is my calling. During the time I service the community I also attend to their spiritual needs the best way I know how. The Pastor of my Church was supposed to do this kind of labor, but his involvement stopped about 2 months after we opened the clinic. I guess he was to busy organizing other activities.
Despite all this I was still tithing to the church, but much less than before we opened the clinic. In my mind I viewed the clinic as part of my offerings for the work of the Kingdom. This was not seen the same way by my Pastor who was not happy with my decreasing tithing to the church. At the end we had to part in opposite directions. Do you get the big picture here? We get so caught up in what has been the tradition for centuries and what we have learn from our elders, that forget the true meaning and purpose of the Gospel. In our modern society, we give until it hurts, because our goals are not set right. If my goal was to make a living from the work I do at this clinic, rather than to win souls I would be very dissapointed. My greatest reward is yet to come, but I rejoyce in giving people some hope and in showing them that there are other people that care about them. This is how I sow the seed, with what I`ve been given, and I still have a regular job.
Omar Garcia, MD, MPH
Dear Dr. Garcia
I appreciate the time you took to share your comments.
A pastor admitted to me once that the church is now a business, and everything has to be approached from that standpoint.
There are many meetings and administrative responsibilities, and paid staff.
Most pastors would not preach the gospel if they did not get paid. They have been taught that this salary is an expectation, and the job is a career.
They forget that the early apostles did not receive a salary, and neither did Jesus. The apostles all worked for a living, supported themselves, and offerings were only occasional, and voluntary. They did not ask for them, nor make it their expectation of the audience that listened to them. Even Paul, who mentions some occasional offerings, made tents for a living, so he did not depend on others for his livelihood.
I recently met one who was in a CPS meeting at DSS, as his church member had been investigated for child abuse, and he was there to tell everyone how the man came to church every week. This pastor then volunteered to “counsel” each side of a dispute, and handed out his business card. I was stunned.
Instead of correcting his church member for the horrible behavior he was guilty of, he was actually in support of him. What was underlying this? His church member and his family all came to his church and paid tithes. He could not risk losing the tithe money, and address the sin involved.
The outside world sees this hypocrisy. This is why we do not see as many salvations as we should. Instead of a holy assembly, we see a commercial enterprise.
I love and respect what you are doing for the poor. This is my heart, and I have spent much volunteer time doing this myself. This is also why I spend about 60 hours a week on this website counseling people, answering questions, getting phone calls, and emails, etc.
I do it out of love and obedience, and never ask for a donation. If offered one, I will reject it.
If we ask for money, then there is no heavenly reward ahead, since we have already been paid.
The Lord has given us such a privilege, to be able to serve him, and share his love and glory with others. We look forward to the day where we stand before Him, and he says “well done, good and faithful servant.”
I totally agree with this comment. Too many churches are doing way too much in service that God has not required us to do. The collection is for the needy saints and they can’t help them because half of the collection is going toward the minister and all of these other people in the church working to get a salary. Get a job! God left an example of how His church should be ran and so many people are going to be lost following these false prophets.
I agree totally. Because church has become ” big business and pastors have become millionaires globally from it… In AFRICA for example there are pastors who own not one but four private jets that enable them to travel the world, and yet their own back yards ( villages where they originate from are striken with extreme poverty) they own fleets of cars while their congregations travel on foot through muddy waters. Look what the catholic church is doing, the pope is like God to the masses and this is what charistmatic and new revival churches have been reduced to, worshiping and enriching their leaders. Meanwhile struggling to pay bills. In my opinion since church has become so smeared with greedy money making false teachers who are inspiring people to get rich by planting money seed to their pulpit of fame, selling the gifts and the calling of God, this institution called church should be closed down and let people worship God in their own hearts with no church building or alter, or programme or money tithes. After all we are all now a royal priesthood and the word of God written in our hearts. Bible teachings should just be on the Internet, tv, radio and missionaries or crusades. A movement and not a monument. Because Christianity brings about religiosity, where the holy spirit is hindered. It’s time for the church without walls to break forth. Bible gives an example that while Jacob slept, Israel strengthened himself, meaning the church must take on the new name and stop being fake with a man made altar and pulpit.
Hi Everyone,
I just want to share with regards to money in the church. I believe a pastor should not be paid (salary) of what he do in the ministry. A pastor is not a hired servant called to preach. But i also believe that he and his family should be supported financially. I am a 26 year old pastor of a Baptist church. I started a pioneering work at the age of 22. I am not full time in the ministry because the church can’t support my needs for now.I have a secular job. God impress into my heart that i should first support the church before it supports me like teaching the members to maturity until they grow and be useful. I am not receiving any money from the church because it is still young (they still lack of understanding when it comes to money involvement in the church), we are few in numbers and they are not yet mature in the Word of GOD but i believe in time, i will be a full time pastor after the seeds grew.
There are many ways to win souls for Christ. Not just us preaching the gospel. Not any of us or any churches can go around the world to preach but any churches can win souls (can be used as instruments) by supporting missionaries financially and in prayer locally and abroad, by sending missionaries, by posting a “biblical way how a person be saved” on the internet, by sending emails and text messages about salvation to other people, etc.
About rich churches who do not help others, well they are not doing the church covenant.
Church cares for souls business…Material business should be done outside the church. But we can use material business to help souls business…Use for fare, food, buying gasoline for cars, for language tutorial, materials use to evangelize,etc.
Ahmmmmmm…not all churches are true churches and there’s no such perfect church or perfect pastor.
I Corinthians 10:31…as long as we give glory to God wherever we are, whatever we do, think and say, we already doing God’s purpose to us why HE saved us and HE is so much happy for that… 🙂
I love you in Christ,
Marvin
dear Marvin
thank you for your contribution.
it is inspiring that you are willing to pastor without a salary
And I agree that anyone , including a pastor, should get help when they need it.
may God bless you on your ministry and work.
Lol You guys are crazy
Is a worker not due his wages …
The only reason they pull salaries is by law so they can be taxed on it !
Sure I preach the gospel not for any donation but i can only do that once in a blue moon because I have to work for Money ..to pay the banks “Everyone else’s god” !!
Other pastors that give there full time to it need to live. Not in absolute luxury of coarse but the most pastors that use the tithe wisely don’t
In actual fact there is a rule with giving the more you give the more you receive
So pastors themselves become wealthy from blessing others (A pastor that pays his tithe)
Who feeds the poor
Who helps the sick
Who builds churches
Who Sets up community up lift-ment programs
Who Stands by there pastors while doing it
If you not happy with tithing then don’t “God loves a cheerful giver ”
If you feel that tithing is a burden like tax then you should not do it
the point of a tithe is to lock in to gods blessing here now
Hollywood that is purely blasphemous and and the music industry that serves lucifer … they receive a tithe by you buying there music and movies
trillions of dollars… or pay your taxes so your governments can declare murderous wars
Would it not be fair as a christian to contribute to the message of Jesus Christ and build up treasures in heaven
There is a epic spiritual war taking place between heaven and hell for the souls of men
Those that cannot fight pay someone else to fight it …
For those of you that are not happy paying a tithe put your mouth where your money is and preach the gospel
God sent his only begotten Son as payment of our sin … That means someone died for you and he didn’t complain about his payment or what sin He died for …
Most that tithe are lead by the holy spirit to do so. So if you don’t really want to then don’t but don’t expect the work of your hands to be blessed Deuteronomy 14:22–29
The major misconceptions about pastors and salaries are Preachers for profit and there fancy churches with major power plays trying to consume up smaller churches around them for profit. Having rallies and the Big Show Bells and Whistles And forming councils like the council of churches … Walt Fri-ken Disney … Crawling on floor like a snake. barking like dogs … It friken show time
Here the warning for Those Pastors
Mathew 19:24
” Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
dear jono
99.9999999% of pastors do not work full time on what you say. They are weekend workers. Or they have someone else do it, while they “administrate.”
You do not need to try to sell me on the prosperity gospel. Jesus did not die a bloody death on the cross so we could be rich and blessed.
The NT teaches that we give free will offerings, not tithes. The tithe is a tax, and as Jesus said, the children of the kingdom do not pay a tax to their king, only the servants and king’s subjects do.
I do preach the gospel, and I am most likely more “full time” than your pastor. I spend 24 /7 preaching the gospel and I NEVER ask for money. If offered, I refuse it. I do this out of love, not profit. This is what Jesus and the apostles did, and they are my example.
I am not a hireling, on salary. This is not my career, or my kingdom to finance. I am called, and I am his Bride. This does not require a salary, as the Lord provides for me. I do not preach for money. I preach because out of inspiration and commitment. My treasure is in heaven, not on earth.
Ok I agree somewhat
However we rain in this life. I met a Jewish guy not so long ago that laughed at the idea of me saving 10% for my tithe … He stated that they don’t save the last 10% of their tithe so god can bless the next months income. They tithe on what they want to earn and God delivers the rest.
I started out having every bank in the country have a sword over my head 1.2 million in debt…wounded (almost fatally ) and without employment for 7 years i was Stock broke I had one loaf of bread in the fridge. I found someone scratching through the rubbish for something to eat. So i gave him the loaf
that afternoon gentleman from the church donates $8 000 out of the blue to me. I in tern pay this to the church minus some expenses $3 000 the following week I receive work for $ 32 000. I then spent the entire lot on the pastors house as its incomplete and he supports many mouths . 2 months go bye and I’m made a director of the company I did the work for..
$ 300 000 was the first pay off as dividends. This was used to support the building of a church as well as the start of a farm( employ the broken hart-ed and renew their faith )
The company now aims for $ 30 000 000 per year and that Jewish guy I mentioned earlier is the other director with several such like companies
Every last cent is a tithe we invests it back in to the people to develop their skills and uplift them from the gutters of life
God spared no skill and or any cost in creation and has sent the bar very high in terms of giving.. therefore in order to walk in his way we should spare no cost in tithing weather its giving to a church.. giving to a noob pastor to further his ministry and support his young family or uplifting the Gutter folk
Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Those guys that run formal churches buying Rolex’s new cars and big houses there fruits are bad …
Your fruits are your actions. Certain pastors agreed have bad fruits as they live in luxury as members in he congregation starve however there are those that are truly called by God and are there to fulfill His purpose .
Pastor Ronny Dell (South Africa) — Feeds 3 000 homeless and gives work
Many “Christians Call it the bum church” and look down on him
Pastor Gustav Du Tiot (South Africa) Provides 28 000 meals a day to the homeless
Pastor Cecil James (South Africa)Givers to the end degree and never asked for a tithe In actual fact all my life he went without in order for others to receive. Bible School , Food pestles , counselling, music group ,Ladies group , bible studies etc
None of the aforementioned pastors are weekend pastors 16 hours a day 7 days a week and all hands on no employees etc
What better way to show your faith is by actions and the best action is by giving. By giving you show the fruit of your hart .
Pastors set examples for their flock and if a pastor has no means to do so he cant set an example.
Luke 6:38
38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”
Your hart is where your treasure lies
dear jono
I appreciate the blessings you describe, but your results are not typical.
If they were, the church saints would be rich as you.
Also, people will give to a church pastor, thinking they are giving to God, but they will not give to the poor.
So pastors can get benefits the people cannot get.
I have been giving to the poor my entire adult life, and I have never gotten money like you have, or a better job, or even a good job.
I also work around the clock 7 days a week.
I approve of helping the poor. I do not approve of making it a business for profit.
I hope the work of the pastors who really care about the poor continues.
I have never heard of the pastors you mention, but I wish them well.
Marianne: just came across your site earlier and have enjoy what I have read so far. So please allow me to chime in with my comments. I used to be a minister at a few ministries and was privy to matters that most would not be. I will never said all BUT I will say that when it comes to MONEY, most “church” leaders have fallen prey to it. Sometimes they are unaware and have follow things because of tradition and other times, it is just their evil intent. Allow me to ask a question. What did most churches do before the 501c3 program was initiated, and what is the benefit or real purpose behind such a thing? The 501c3 program was started in 1954 by the shrewed Lyndon B. Johnson. This program was never designed to help the church but it was desigent to keep the church SILENT on policies and laws that was changing the fabric of the morality of America. During those day, the “CHURCH” was a voice against immorality and all the other things that were beginning to plague America. Mr. Johnson started the program because he was sick and tired of the “church” shaping the views of America. If one would take the time and look closely at what ALL comes with signing your church signature on the dotted line, you will noticed that it comes with its SOUL. What do I mean? Did you know that if one openly and continous speaks out against anything that the government declares LEGAL, then it will soon become in danger of losing its tax exempt status. Now you know why very few churches will openly oppose Homosexuality, Lesbianism and any other immoral behavior that the gvt has now declared LEGAL. It has been said that Mr. Johnson was suprised on how easy and quickly that the NON-BIBLICAL CLERGY members sold out!! Now allow me to address my first question. What did most churches do before the 501c3 program was implemented? THEY HAD TAX EXEMPT STATUS before that time as well!! The 1st AMENDMENT places the churches outside of TAXABLE STATUS (congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise of such) and even if it did have to pay taxes: Then pay them. Render unto Ceaser what is due to him. Religion is not free if you have to pay taxes!! Therefore it is no need for any church to file a 501c3 form. Let us turn towards the IRS itself:
Sec 508: New Organizations must notify the secretary that they are filing for recognized status. Mandatory Exceptions are: Churches, their integrated auxillaries and conventions or associations of churches.
It is “shameful” that leaders willfully have ridden down this path of control, they have now laid in bed with the gvt itself. The Pastors are only doing what the sheepies are allowing them to do. The Bible clearly states that 1 person or ministry does not rule or have final authority over the local assembly. Out of tradition the Pastor and his role has MORPHED into that which is unbiblical. The Four Fold ministries are in place for a reason and besides God knows that absolute power will corrupt any one man absolutely. The church has reverted into the mentality of the children of Israel in the old testament when GOD said, ” I WANT TO BE YOUR GOD.” and the children of Israel responded, “WE want to be like the other nations and have a KING(man) rule over us.” It is interesting to note that the bible has more negative things to say about Pastors and their character than good things. Now who can argue with that??
dear baby moses
good point about 501c3. churches in american history were not taxed to begin with , I think, before the 501c3
I did not see it mentioned so I will add it here.
The only church I know of that does NOT have a paid clergy is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, sometimes referred to as the Mormon Church.
I came to this site from a search on justification for paid clergy. It is something that is a real sticking point for me and I just do not understand why religious organizations believe they need to get paid to preach the Word of God. The Bible is free, recieving that message should be free as well. I was speaking with a man that is in a pastorship and he recieves a salary. I just don’t understand what a paid person does to justify their salary. I also had a co-worker and said her Jewish pastor is paid $160,000 a year! That alarmed me. Also I know of MEGA churches like Joel Olstein where he makes MILLIONS of dollars a year. The sad thing is that this information is not public because these are all NPOs. We never know how much one makes and where the money goes.
Back to my original point. I am part of one of the fastest growing religions and we are a worldwide organization. We do not have paid clergy, we are all volunteers. We donate our time to help the church grow. I spent my money to go on a two year mission to share the gospel. No one paid me.
Any church organization that requires paid clergy is not living by God’s Word but are only following selfish financial desires. Their reward is here on Earth.
Our church has been actively growing for over 200 years without a paid clergy. We are living proof that churches should NOT be established for man to profit or to get gain.
Here is an exerpt from a scripture that we use called the Doctrine & Covenants which is modern day revelation from God:
56. But it is they who do not afear me, neither keep my commandments but build up bchurches unto themselves to get gain, yea, and all those that do wickedly and build up the kingdom of the devil—yea, verily, verily, I say unto you, that it is they that I will disturb, and cause to tremble and shake to the center.
26 And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up achurches unto themselves to get bgain, and began to deny the true church of Christ.
23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.
Go to http://www.morom.org or http://www.lds.org if you want to find out more about a religion and worlwide church that doesn’t make money off its membership!
john
I agree with what you say.
Pastors who build up churches and collect salaries are not building God’s kingdom. They are building their OWN kingdoms.
They are hirelings in a business, not a ministry.
I am glad to hear your church does not participate in this.
God bless you.
old priesthood, old ways.
new priesthood, new ways, we are all priests, not just an elect few
In Galatians, Paul makes the point that the Law given by Moses was an addition to the Abrahamic Covenant. It was added in order to make sin very clear so that we will all know, and be without excuse that we have fallen short of the righteous standard set before us by God. So it was a temporary addition until the Messiah came, the Seed, and now that He has come, the Law has done its job.
“Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity THERE IS ALSO A CHANGE IN THE LAW. For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness.”
With Jesus there is a New Priesthood according to the Order of Melchizedek. This system is different from the Levitical Priesthood. If you have a New Priesthood you need a new Law under which it can operate. Equally if you have a new Law, then the Old Priesthood has no structure under which to operate.
Previously only one type of priesthood was permitted, the Levitical Priesthood. Now this Hebrews text clearly tells us that the Levitical Priesthood could not bring perfection. Blood sacrifices only temporarily covered sin, Jesus’ blood brings complete removal of sins.
The writer of Hebrews says that the Levitical priesthood has been done away with and replaced with the Priesthood of Melchizedek. This would require a change in the LAW. As long as the Law of Moses was in effect, no other priesthood was valid except the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood.
Hebrews 7:18 states that the Mosaic Law was set aside because it was weak and useless!
Because it is no longer in effect, we now have a New Priesthood after the Order of Melchizedek.
If knowing God and having a relationship with God is the most important thing one can have in life then,,,,
Then having a full time pastor in a church is absolutely vital !!!!!!
The pastor should be there to help ” those in need at a difficult time in their lives” or if he is un available at that time he should be able to refer a mature christian or elder that can be of assistance to people ( christians and non-christians) in their time of need.
There has to be a balance between how much the Pastor is being paid (he has to be able to support his family ) and the size of the congregation,,,,
If the congregation is too small to support a full time pastor, he might have to work part time for a while,,,,,, If the church as a whole is led by the Holy Spirit it should be reaching out to the community and naturally the church will grow ,,,,,,,because people will respond to the Word of God,,,,
and then the pastor can become full time.
Sometimes the pastor has a full time job earning BIG BUCKS,,,
And he knows if he leaves that job he will not be getting that much money as a full time pastor,,, therefore he doesn’t leave,,,, he says ” I don’t want to burden the church by me getting payed,,,,,, (maybe he wants to get paid the same as his BIG BUCKS secular job),,,,,,,
therefore the church suffers,,,,,,the pastor and the church are in the game ,,, but they are coming last and loose almost every game, the pastor is refreshed when he goes back home to his caring and supporting family but there are lots of people in his congregation that are like orphans,,,,, abandoned by their family by becoming christians, suffering from depression, addiction, lonliness, abuse, despair ,,,,,,, etc,,, they are tired and hurting !!!!!
If the pastor has a full time job outside the church earning big bucks,,,,
and doesn’t want to leave that job because the church cannot afford to pay him the same amount then here are some of the effects of this senario,,,,
1. Not being available to encourage and support members of the church consistently and EFFECTIVELY during times of hardship and crisis.
If they do this, it will most likely be after work hours and then his family relationships will suffer,,,, and this is not good.
2. Not too much time for outreach,,,,, or time to organise and prepare for outreach as he is flat out working in his secular job.
Having a full time job can be so demanding that he has no time to think about people in his congregation and where they are at in their lives,,,
how he can disciple them, help them, guide them etc,,,,as good as his intentions are ,,,,, he cannot do this properly and effectively if he is working full time and has a family !!!!!
3. What type of example is the pastor setting,,,,, I will go out working 10-12 hours a day,,,, then i will squeeze in some time for my family, then prepare some things for the church while I am pastoring the flock of hurting, new and immature christians,,,,, ( you are in the game pastor ,, but you are loosing, your bank account is getting bigger but your sheep are dying,,,,
but who cares ?,,, as long as they are NOT your own family,,,,,,
Jesus sacrificed Himself for us,,,, while we where still sinners,,,,,
Let us see the example of sacrifice from some ,,,,,and I repeat some pastors out there,,,, who don’t want to let go of the big bucks
I find it hard to accept the fact that a pastor has a full time secular job,,,,
and is trying to pastor a church at the same time,,,,,,
Sounds like secular job and big bucks comes first and,,,,,
Church a very close second,,,, only because as a full time pastor they cannot earn the same amount of money as the secular big bucks job 😦
andrew
it sounds like you think pastors have all the work in a church, while members stay home, and wait for sunday.
if the pastor is doing a good job equipping the saints, they will all be ministers, and all needs will be met.
the apostles had jobs, and were successful in ministry. so can modern pastors.
What the Bible Says About Paying Pastors
1 Timothy 5:17-18
Elders who do their work well should be respected and paid well, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” And in another place, “Those who work deserve their pay!” (NLT)
As we see in 1 Timothy 5, all ministry work is important, but preaching and teaching is especially worthy of honor because it is the core of Christian ministry. Paul backed up his point in the verse above with Old Testament references to Deuteronomy 25:4 and Leviticus 19:13.
1 Corinthians 9:9
For the law of Moses says, “You must not muzzle an ox to keep it from eating as it treads out the grain.” Was God thinking only about oxen when he said this? (NLT)
Again, Paul refers to this expression of “not muzzling an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Even though many times Paul chose not to accept financial support, he still argued for the Old Testament principle that those who serve full time to meet the spiritual needs of people, deserve to receive monetary support from them.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord ordered that those who preach the Good News should be supported by those who benefit from it. (NLT)
In verses such as Luke 10:7-8 and Matthew 10:10, the Lord Jesus himself taught the same precept, that spiritual workers deserve to be paid for their service.
Addressing a Misconception
In conclusion, I’d like to address a common misconception about pastors and preachers. Many Christians believe that being a pastor or teacher is a relatively easy job. New believers especially, might have the tendency to think that ministers simply show up at church on Sunday morning to preach and then spend the rest of the week praying and reading the Bible. While pastors do (and should) spend plenty of time reading God’s Word and praying, that’s only a very small part of what they do.
By definition of the word pastor, these servants of God are called to ‘shepherd the flock,’ which means they are entrusted with the responsibility of caring for the spiritual needs of the congregation. Even in a small church these responsibilities are numerous.
As the primary teacher of God’s Word to the people, most pastors spend hours and hours researching and studying Scripture in order to rightly understand the Bible so that it can be taught in a meaningful and applicable way. Besides preaching and teaching, pastors do a great deal of spiritual counseling, they make hospital visits, pray for the sick, train and disciple church leaders, officiate weddings, perform funerals, and the list goes on and on.
In small churches, many pastors have the business and administrative responsibilities as well as office work to tend to; while in large churches, the weekly activities taking place within the walls of the church can be continuous. Typically, the larger the church the greater the weight of responsibility.
While this is merely a personal observation, it’s worth noting. As I’ve worked for the past 20+ years on the staff of large and small churches, I’ve come to realize that the pastoral calling is one of the hardest jobs there is. In actuality, almost every pastor I’ve known was not paid nearly as much as he deserved.
Right on .. U said the truth , God will be happy with you .. I’ve had the same story as you brought up in church , I believed in giving as much as I could .. As I’ve seeked the truth the word and asked the Holy Spirit to open my understanding I’ve realised this and much more.. Once your awakened you can’t go back ..
I just want to clear up that I was agreeing that pastors should not earn a wage .. It is a disgrace .. I didn’t realise this growing up , but like I said reading the word in its truth and meaning I now understand this and how wrong it is , just shameful ..
I would encourage everyone especailly those supporting the idea that pastors should draw a salary to read this article.
http://www.wickedshepherds.com/shouldpastorsbecaredfor.html
Paul most certainly did not argue that pastors should be salaried but rather implored the church that they should follow his own example of not drawing financial suppor from the church. The notion that it is the pastor who is supposed to edify the flock against is incorrect because it neglects the function of the 5-fold ministry as outlined in Eph 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
What we see in church today however is the notion that the pastor can fulfill all these ministries so he or she gets paid and the other ministries are neglected. This is clearly wrong in view of scriptures.
As for those citing 1 Tim 5:17-18, Paul most certainly was not advocating paying pastors or elders a salary talk less of a double salary. If we go to 1 Tim 6:1 we see Paul using the same term honour to say that servants should count their masters worthy of all honour. Could Paul be saying that servants should pay their masters a salary here? So similarly 1Tim 5:17-18 is being misused by those who want to take advangtage of the sheep making themselves guilty of the charge in Ez 34:3
Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock.
Thus they feed off the flock instead of feeding the flock.
pastor should be shot
There are two ways of looking at this. For one thing, pastors work for a church, and unless churches refuse their tax exempt status then they are not ‘for profit’ enterprises, therefore, the pastor is not a ‘for profit’ employee. Then you can compare it to any other industry, and a pastor who goes to college and gets a degree should be making a good paycheck. The way I see it, a psychologist gets about as much education as a pastor, and they make a good living, therefore a pastor should make a good living too. I say, like any other employee, they are free to make all the can, and those that don’t agree, are free to leave a church where a pastor is making all they can. Simple as that.
the church has become an industry to make money in…..which is why it has lost its power
Charles Benson,
It is because of twisted views like yours why the status quo in many churches will not change. You offer no Biblical basis for a pastor to be salaried but instead resort to using worldly standards. You did touch on part of the problem however and that is when the church is registered as a non-profit organisation. This should never have happened.
Marianne, as you say the church has become an industry indeed. Imagine the apostle Paul in his day registering each church he planted as “Apostle Paul’s Ministries Inc.” Can you imagine today we have so-called pastors registering churches in their names and appointing their children as board of directors? The sad thing about it is that people refuse to wake up to the truth but instead flock to support these people.
Marianne,
I see that this topic is very close to your heart, and you have written passionately and profusely about it for a long time. I do agree with your general assessment that much of the modern church, especially here in America, has become “big business” and many modern so-called “pastors” are in it for the wrong reasons, including just “for the money.”
I can’t say that I agree with all your conclusions. But I have not read very much of the writings here, nor have I thought this issue through that much.
However, I want to briefly interject one fundamental point, which is so central that it’s easy for us all to miss.
What IS “a pastor”?
I don’t think most people today really know. I think many people have their own definition, which may be based on certain parts of the Bible, or their own feelings, experience, society, church or denominational background, etc.
There are many men today, including so-called “mega-church pastors” or TV evangelists, who take the title “pastor.” But what they really are is travelling speakers, teachers, evangelists, and writers – “like Paul.” Yes, there is a need for this kind of work in God’s Kingdom. But they are not pastors according to the model of THE Pastor, Jesus. Pastor literally means shepherd, and Jesus is the Good Shepherd.
Yes, Jesus travelled a lot- together with his flock, almost never alone. Although Jesus didn’t stay in the same building all the time, he DID stay with basically the same core flock all the time for 3 1/2 years, to train them before he delegated authority and released them to minister to others.
Of course, the ministry of Jesus expanded as time went along, to all people who had an ear to listen – the poor, prostitutes, tax collectors, Pharisees, whoever. It wasn’t like a private country club. Yet, despite that, the Last Supper was exclusive – only his 12 core leaders. Jesus didn’t “go out with a bang” and rent the coliseum in Caesarea to do a “crusade” and have people “pray the sinners prayer” to “get decisions for Christ” at a final “altar call.” Many “mega-church” attenders today would probably criticize the ministry of Jesus, saying he “didn’t care about the lost” since he didn’t do “crusades”…….
Although I’m not “blaming Paul” personally, I can identify that the biggest BIBLICAL root cause for our misunderstandings today about “what is a pastor” is how we interpret Paul and his writings.
A few hundred years ago, a tradition started of calling Paul’s letters to Timothy and Titus the “Pastoral Epistles.” That is completely wrong. Neither Timothy nor Titus were ever pastors as far as we can tell from the text of the Bible. They were Paul’s young helpers, travelling evangelists and teachers.
One could describe Paul as the “founding pastor” of the church in Corinth (where he was a dismal failure as an abusive absentee pastor who never delegated real authority to anyone else.) But other than in Corinth, Paul was never a pastor as far as we can tell based on the text of the Bible. So these are the “Evangelist Epistles.” Not wise old Pastor Paul, our model of maturity and example to follow, giving his sage advice to younger pastors, which is what I was taught in seminary.
For me, Jesus is the example of what a “pastor” should be like, not Paul.
I can agree with you on Paul about this one issue…..people quote him as the biblical source for their right to claim a salary.
Good Afternoon Guys,
I was reading all of your comments and just to put several things in perspective, because as a pastor, I am tired of being under microscope because of others. 1st, Romans 10:14 clearly states How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? In other words, you do need a pastor, praying over you, covering you, motivating and inspiring you to keep the faith. Now I can relate to a certain extent regarding the application of the funds received, a portion should go to operating expenses and the other to the various ministries. At least that’s how we do at New Revelations. When I first became pastor, I wanted to foster transparency, people deserve to know where their funds go, so how we operate is our musicians are the only paid staff members and since we’re small, its small, we pay the facility pastor for using his facility to function ministry and we apply the remainder to all of our ministries, each Sunday they receive a budget of like $75-$125.00 to achieve their mission and purpose. As Pastor, I don’t receive a salary yet I am faithful to my duties. Not to say that the church should not care for the pastor, but the church is just what is says the church.
All churches don’t function like businesses but unfortunately, our government forces us to incorporate, file 501c3 status and elect corporate officers, so yes by virtue of office, the pastor is the ceo.
I’ve read several comments here. I know churches (two in particular) from mega to about 100 members where pastors don’t take a salary, but their churches have no debt. Then I’m aware of churches where the pastor believes his salary is the most important thing in the church—that if the mortgage or utilities are due & there is not enough money, the pastor should be paid first & go to the congregation for extra money if there is not enough money. The pastor has a full time job, too and is there basically two times a week.
In another situation where the pastor does not take a salary, he is there everyday as there are different outreach ministries & he lives in a nice home, etc. His members got together & raised enough money to buy him a very nice new luxury car. In another case, one person in the congregation gave the pastor a car.
I admit that I’m still praying & searching in this area, but I have to admit I’m very interested in the churches & ministries where the pastor/evangelists, etc are ministering full time, don’t take a salary, are debt free & want for nothing. I noticed one common thread is that they all work in some form or fashion….like self-employment or have their own business, etc. They are very good “merchants” & God is blessing them with some form of residual income from wise investments, book sells, etc. And, they give a generous portion of their money earned back into the church/ministry.
dear melba
I hope you find the right church home for yourself. god bless you
Read 1 Corinthians 9 13-14. Paul made an exception with the church of Corinthians, but he never said that a laborer of God wasn’t worthy of his salary. In the entire chapter Paul is making an appeal to the church explaining that he like others has certain right as a minister of the gospel. He ask the question, don’t I have a right to marry a christian woman? Are we going to make the argument that just because Paul chose not to marry , then that means that all other ministers shouldn’t? He had a right but chose not to exercise that right. Why give such detail explanation in favor of ministers receiving a salary and then contradict himself by saying, no they are not worthy and should work. In the book of Revelations the pastors are being addressed as angels. Every member in the body of Christ has a function. Pastors are responsible for the members of his church. He is there to feed the flock and to minister over them. The pastor is absolutely worthy of his salary if he is genuinely a man of God and called to be a pastor. As far as the elders being worthy of double honor, when we rightly divide the word if God, we can clearly see that it was making reference to income. It says; 1 Timothy 5:18 thou shall not muzzle the ox that threateth out the corn… We have a bunch of silly people people that don’t understand anything using the internet to gather unto themselves an audience to spew their foolishness. May God help us.
john
maybe I should get paid for having this internet website. I spend at least 60 hours a week on it.
where we are ALL laborers of the God, not just pastors. we ALL tread out the corn, and are worthy to eat of it.
the seed is the word of God, and the harvest is souls, not money from any offerings
where do you see the word salary?
where do you see apostles and Jesus himself collecting tithes and paying themselves? yes, a basket of food once in a while was nice, but not a weekly collection of money.
Jesus did not suffer torment, and die a bloody death on the cross so that pastors could have an easy life, and collect a salary
each person was to give as it seemed right in their heart, and these were free will offerings, not a weekly ritual for both tithes and offerings…
.if someone puts a basket in front of you expecting a contribution, it takes away the free will part, and puts pressure on you.
you need to rightly divide the word of God again, double honor is not double money.
look up the word honor.
pastors taking the money of the saints keeps them well funded, and the saints broke, so that only one can afford to do anything, and the rest of the saints cannot. this is not what the Lord intended.
he intended we ALL go out and spread the gospel….but now, 99.999 % of the church is inactive, because it has no money, and 0.001% has the money, and maybe / 10,000 actually do anything to spread the real gospel.
hearing the real gospel is very rare now. most is about prosperity, and how god is going to bless us, and keep us from all the tribulation about to start.
the sheep are kept sheep, and never allowed to do anything, and they will be unprepared when the evil comes. Evil will win during the tribulation because there will be no one fighting it.
I am not the foolish one.. I am preparing others for what is to come.
ps
2 thess 3
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you,
8 nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
9 We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate.
10 For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
here we see that everyone was expected to work and support themselves, and not live off the efforts or money of others.
I thought “double honor” meant physical blessing or money and spiritual blessing or souls. Thus, receiving double homor….earthly needs met and spiritual harvest reaped.
Yes, God help us. The Holy Spirit should be our teacher, but I like to know what other brothers and sisters in Christ believe. Also, God usually confirms His Word three times or with three witnesses. First, the Holy Spirit, then by His Word, then by another believer. That has been my experience.
JS
see my answers to john above this comment.
double honor is not money…..if they meant double money, they would have said so..
showing “honor” with a voluntary donation if the person is in need is ok…but it is not an obligation to give money to show honor, especially when the person is NOT in need.
believers should share with each other…but that does not mean one person should get paid more than others, or have more benefts, when ALL work in the gospel.
Marianne,
I appreciate your blog and your reply to the above comment.
However – do you really think what you wrote is accurate?
“Evil will win during the tribulation because there will be no one fighting it.”
The passive, sleeping Church is not prepared and many will suffer Tribulation (great testing). The tribulation and plagues are directed to the wicked and could move many to repentance.
Many folks in churches and Pastors are given a warning in the form of a parable, which is both physical and spiritual.
“Woe to those who are pregnant and those nursing in those days” (Matthew 24:19). Does it say that evil will win?
The mature Believer (not in the womb, baby) who is spiritually prepared, knowing they have the Keys and in His name defeat the enemy.
Many saints will die, going to heaven.
I think we disagree on the meaning/message of Joel 2:2-11 and Psalm 18 (focus on verses 18-50), which tell me (I don’t know about many others) that there is victory.
Evil does not win, but is defeated by the Lord and His anointed who are a large group of Believers, following after the Lamb where ever He goes.
Those Pastors who teach and give milk sermons will be dealing with serious demonic issues within their flock. It already has begun.
The writer of the comment above seems to be one who may be in the company of such Pastors. “Woe!”
Just so happen to be reading the Word and Derek Prince book, “Rules of Engagement” along with Win Worley’s booklet, God’s Plan for Leadership” this morning. This is another great book by Prince.
These men of God had years of experience applying the Keys, attacking the enemy – which is evidence of Rev. 12:11. This verse is central to the work of church leadership in the last days.
You are correct – there is a void in leadership (Ezekiel 34). Tithing and the trappings of church administration (business and “programs”) are a distraction from teaching and applying the Keys, advancing the Kingdom.
I reverence Rev. 12:11 often and it applies during the last days.
Evil is overcome. But there will be many Christians who will be subjected to the evil spirits of “fear”, “bitterness” (Wormwood) and other powers of darkness during the time of great testing of their faith, hope and love.
The Lord said to pray that we may escape these events (things) that will happen in the last days (Luke 21:34-36).
How?
See Rev. 12:10-11.
“Now salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come…And they overcame him (the accuser cast down), by the blood of the Lamb and by the words of their testimony, and they did not love their lives even to the point if death.”
So then,”Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” (1 Corinthians 15:55).
Blessings
Psalm 18 and 140
dj
I agree that what I said was too much of a blanket statement.
for the most part, evil will win during the tribulation, due to lack of readiness…
that is why so much goes wrong.
there will be some that will be able to over come…
..evil will be destroyed at the end of the period.
That is the passage establishing the model for church leadership (apostles prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers). Exactly as written in Scripture.
I think order (ministry application) will be re-established soon.
Blessings
Psalm 25
Thank you for this message. I feel the same way no one should be paid to preach the word of God. I pray the people of God the followers of Jesus wake up. God bless.
3 thess
7 For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you,
8 nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you.
9 It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate.
10 For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.
11 For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies.
12 Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.
[…] Arguments for and against pastor salaries […]
India Reckoner said this on July 8, 2014 at 1:05 am |
Today I met an associate pastor who gets paid soley from his mega church. He lives in the most affluent area. He, even though he just met me, told me his pastor lives in a home they are selling or just sold for 2.4 million. Yes, I do believe God can take care of a pastor’s needs thru the church members, but should a pastor live such an affluent lifestyle from the church? Does it matter if some of this affluence came from inheritance or other work? In this case, I don’t believe it did as the pastor is well known and I would have heard. But, does it matter? Shouldnt a pastor live humbly and give all his excess to others? Are all Christians calles to do this, but especially pastors? Oh, his associate pastor also mentioned the leaders had been asking the members to fund a new church building too. My own pastor plans to move our small services into his home, which he will have to buy from his own meager income made from being an electrician. Our pastor also does the activities mentioned in this blog….street ministry…help 24-7…available all the time. Oh, but he is from Africa. I read on here pastors in different countries act differently. This seems true in my one experience. Anyone else experience this?
I humbly ask these questions and want to know what other believers believe.
JS
what you say is really sad, and really awful…..if some pastor inherits money, that is one thing…but to take millions from the church and spend it on himself is a sin….such pastors are going to have their own “mansion” in hell waiting for them
.all the apostles worked at their jobs and preached the gospel…offerings were taken up for the poor.
where you live does not matter…..the gospel is the same for all nations….the standards of behavior are the same for all christians.
if africa is poor, then rich countries should send money….that is what Paul did..when the jerusalem church needed help….he did not say, oh that is jerusalem.
soon, jesus will come, and there will be a severe judgment on all those who disgraced his gospel and name…..stay close to your pastor and stay close to God…this world is so corrupt it is coming to an end.
Purchase these books: “The Heavenly Man” and “Living Water” by Bother Yun.
The Church in China (House Churches) are growing and experiencing all the gifts.
Blessings
Psalm 34
The Church has changed since i was 10 years old(1958) there was a middle aged lady in a poor neighbor hood her and her husband made a meager living by opening a little store in a run down area of a small city, she was a devoted member of a large church and she made it her mission to take all of us poor kids from broken homes a lot of us from very abusive homes and would take us to Sunday school in the basement of the church because we did not have clothes to meet the upstairs standards,some did not even have shoes,but her heart was of gold,where is this going, let me tell you,the preacher (pastor)not one time ever came to that basement as i can remember to welcome any dirty hungry neighbor hood kids looking for Jesus,you see that was something they had to look foreward to was just a little time with the Angel of the neighbor hood that faithfully would round us up on Sunday morning and take us to the basement of one of the largest churches in the tri state area,here is my point about pastors that do not work and think God and the church owe them wages for what,something that should come natural(read 1st and 2nd Corinthins)Jesus never owned a house had a place to live permanantely and God always supplied his needs not his wants,i think a lot of men in this day and age think if you get your degree in the ministry the church should take care of them and their family i think and i speak by ocasion and not of permission the first are going to be last and the last are going to be first.There are a lot of just every day christians that should get a big salary for what they do,its called LABOR OF LOVE,not pay me for my time as your pastor.God open the eyes of the foolish.Amen
jim
a simple truth, you understand what most people don’t.
Paul didn’t seem to care about anything but preaching the gospel of Jesus with no questions about his motives. He went without, so that his precious sheep my inherit eternity. I wrote a brief article. The first few paragraphs are below;
Teachers, Preachers and Mammon: What do Jesus, Paul and Peter say about money and leadership in Christ
Jesus did not specifically address how leaders in Christ should approach soliciting – or even accepting money from their flocks, but he did teach all of us that we are to live only for the kingdom of God. He was an excellent example to us of what this should look like since He himself gave up his glorious throne in heaven (See, Ezekiel 1), to live a sweaty, dirty life of abject poverty and even homelessness (Matthew 7:20) on this earth. He also taught all of us that we should be willing to lose everything in this life in order to gain an inheritance that can never perish, spoil, or fade, kept in heaven for us.
Jesus was not even close to an average middle-class man. As Isaiah 53 states, there was nothing about Jesus that was desirable mankind – neither good looks nor material wealth. He was born in a manger, in a barn, and he toiled with his hands as a carpenter for most of His adult life. Yet, in Mark 12:41-42, the people who travelled to hear Jesus speak, seemed surprised when they saw him dressed as a common man. Jesus told them that they should expect to find those who wear fine clothes in king’s palaces, clearly implying that those who are called to preach the message of His eternal kingdom should have nothing in common with either the wealthy or the rulers of this world.
When Jesus sent his beloved disciples out to spread the message of the kingdom, he sent them with nothing but the sandals on their feet and the tunics on their backs. He did not instruct them to ask for money but to simply go and spread the message of the kingdom of God, knowing that the people who met them would, by the Spirit, provide for their needs. He made them trust, not in themselves, but in the one who meets all of our needs so graciously (Matthew 10:7; Luke 10:7-8)
…see the rest of the article at the link below….
http://followingjesuschrist3.com/2014/11/14/teachers-preachers-and-wealth/
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I agree with what your message says. Not only money but also people want to put their names higher then other peoples names saying they are better then others when real Christians are in the body of the Lord and who is in the body of the Lord would do cooperating, caring and helping others without expecting a reward. I do recycling for nothing because I love the Lord alot and like you say the real reward is in heaven and not on earth. I do a better job on any job if I don’t even think about expecting a reward. More constration and focus on the job and not any rewards. I love the Lord and the Lord’s rewards will never be gone because they are stored in heaven. It’s much better. Thanks for your wonderful message and God Bless You!!! By Brian Cooper JR
Dear sponsor of church or pastor, sharoom. l hope you that your fine too. My name is Mr Andrea. Am secretary church in Tanzania. This church is New church. But promblem fancing us is FUND to building church and FUnd to buy tools of music for preach the word of God. So Now we pray inthe Ground of church every sunday. Please we need emergence support from you sponsor now now.
Thanks so much and God Blesss you too,
Mr Andrea Shebila.
secretary church.
Support God provides universal choir now and your church pastor
Am so glad to meet you here. God bless abandontly
Suppord God provides universal choir now because Jesus said to his desciples “whoever will receive and give you food and shelter will have received me” don’t forget to support your church pasters also. God bless you.
We must help our church leaders by building for them houses, giving food and shelter plus all the basic needs plus some little monthly salary if possible. However, salaries sometimes make these leaders resist transfer if told to do so.