Church is stuck inside!


What good is being redeemed if we keep it a secret, and do not share it?

A good pastor friend wrote this on his Facebook page:

Marty Mason

God has given the Church the power to influence. We have been redeemed to reign and have dominion. This is the posture of which change is created. Let’s take our place Church. Now is the season!!!

This is very true.

Pastors are to equip the saints.

But what if the saints never do anything with what they have been taught?

My thought and reply was this:

Some do a lot for the Lord….but ….most of the time, many / most churches never leave the building.

We need to leave the building and do more while there is still time.


Church is a place of fellowship and worship.

But it is also a place where we learn our obligation to share what goes on there with others.

Jesus told us ALL to preach the gospel, not just enrich ourselves.

Being enriched without sharing is a waste.


It is like an apple tree full of apples, and no one eats them.

If no one eats what is on the tree, then it is a waste of time for the apple tree to produce apples.

If we are trees with fruit, then it is our job to make sure others are fed from our tree.

We do not keep the apples to ourselves.

153 Responses to “Church is stuck inside!”

  1. the end times are are so close you can smell it in the air i am not a pasture and if i can smell it thy sound be able to also thy should gather the people together and teach them this so thy wont be left behind or even lost i don’t go to church but i due be-leave in my god and what he stands for no one will ever tell me different i cant fine a church that be-leaves the way i due i be-leave my lord is about to return i be-leave he want to prepare a place for us to go that be-leave in him i be-leave he died on the cross for my salvation i be-leave this world is in big trouble thy teach every thing but whats coming even on t.v i listen we need to wake up and also be-leave what he said about the end times

    • I know of A LOT of churches that believe what you wrote here. What area of the country do you live, where you cannot find a church? No church is perfect, and really I doubt most of us go to one where we agree totally 100% on everything. If they believe the basic tenets of the Christian faith, believe the Bible to be true and salvation is only through Jesus Christ, that’s probably enough.

  2. Long ago on the news there was a British policeman in a slum area. He put up a xerox copy of his picture in uniform in the area with the words, “My name is Officer Harry….and I’m here to help you.”

    The people loved him so much they told the BBC and the BBC made a story and the story made it on our evening news here.

    I remember my mother’s casual remark, “He’s a Christian.”

    Genuine Christians are impossible to miss…it’s not hours spent volunteering or underlining Bible verses or having any one career. Still less is it ‘Me the Believer”. It’s a quality of heart…humble, meek, and always kind.

  3. Ive had this topic hit me the last few years, I never thought about it much till I listened to a music group. I may have mentioned in earlier topics about a man named Brian Head Welch, he had written a song and it said something like ” the church is not inside, you’re building walls, on Sundays you all hide, while the world just falls” and it didn’t fully dawn on me till sometime later down the road.

    What is a church now a days to some people?! A holy house, a place to gather with friends, a place that is a symbol to those who want to stay away from it?! What do you see when you see a church?! Sometimes I am not sure, it used to mean a place I didn’t want to go and be bored (being younger of course)

    But what is it you see inside and out?! I don’t know alot about the history of churches, but to some I suppose it is a holy house for the father, but how many see that these walls hide the word of God from the public, especially when you look as far back as Jesus taught in the rain, sun, or cold I’m sure. But what changed now that we need a church?!

    Are we too worried we will get wet?! Too hot?! It’s almost like being in a secret meeting (to me it feels that way) and I think we do hide it too much from the public and some just don’t feel welcome. Why does no one go outside and have service in the public?! Who came up with the idea we should hide the word in places?!

    I’m not educated in this matter fully but I would enjoy some responses!🙂

    • I may have more to add sooner or later, just short in time right now. But what do you think people see web they see a church?! And how many change faces as soon as they leave the church grounds?!

    • Dear Serilei – I believe Americans anymore are not as social as they use to be. Fear reins over most Americans and Christians.
      Status and popularity means alot to many. Many will not go to a small church cause it is NOT Popular to be in little family church anymore.
      Most flee to Organized church’s for the fact that they are so organized no one will get out of place and embarress them or some mayor or big wheel or worse the Pastor even.
      Everything has turned around since the Book of Acts. The church actually scared people then. Now its turned into a Social club. Breakfast bars, etc. etc. We are worried more about offending people today than they did in Jesus day. And the early church paid a price for their faith. Yea the price is to much to pay for most believers today. So they stay in their shelter only.
      I have worked beside Christians for years and never knew they was Christians. I have also worked beside some that were of different denominations and they never wanted to talk about the bible either. FEAR is rampant in todays society. So they stay in their pond and will not get out into the fresh deep water let alone swim upstream.
      Not Hunger for themselves or for the Lost. Just there for the fire insurance. That they probably do not have. But the nice guy behind the pulpit tells them they alright. Just come to church and pay you tithes always. and you going to heaven. God bless you all –

    • we must take what we learn everywhere because Jesus did not set in one spot but embraced his moments and used every chance to spread the good news , most people see christians as being or having one way it is what i say and what you say does not matter or look at me . It has become hard showing the world that God is lord and his people are not all that waY.
      we must give the world true examples of what being save is , When God is first in our lives it shows you dont have to say a word, light will shine in those that are brought with the blood of Jesus. The truth will set people free not men tradition but the knowledge to know God and his will for men to have the promises.

      • hi mischel

        very good point. very true.

        those that belong to the Lord will shine light lights to the world.

        We will not speak from our minds, but from our spirits.

        People will see the difference between us and those who are dead inside.

    • I think what’s missing is the LOVE. Love attracts, and the churches are empty to the degree that love isn’t there. There’s alot of good behaviors associated with love, which can be emulated even by political and social factions, and businesses (it’s good business, generally speaking) … but nobody genuinely seeking God goes to hear messages of forgiveness and eternal life where there’s strife and political pot-stirring.

      It’s necessary that the church be “separate” — a place where the Holy Spirit speaks collectively with us — but where are the miracles of healing, that convince newcomers that God’s supernatural presence is at work? It seems to me that a person today must have the Holy Spirit already before being able to spot the subtle signs of God’s Spirit at work.

      Perhaps this is because we’re so focused on ourselves and our life in this world, rather than saving others from Gehenna (the black holes in space — Sheol, the hell inside earth, is simply the local holding jail). If you’d spend time meditating on the horrors of eternal torment in that place, in a celestial body of destruction that cannot die, it might light a fire under YOU.

      After all, under grace you have the Holy Spirit, like any prophet of old, and so likewise as they, you are accountable for what you did and did NOT do with the spiritual and earthly gifts God gave you … such as a mouth and tongue to share salvation with. How many eternal deaths will you be responsible for, by omission? And then what? What shall be done with you?

      We’ve all been through so much this last decade … but we’ve got to steel our minds and hearts for the last big push to love people into God’s Kingdom, before time’s up and global governance shuts it all down. Even now in Arizona, bills are being drawn up to make ANY statement or comment, oral or written, THAT OFFENDS ANYONE, a FELONY!!! Coupled with the NDAA, which is essentially martial law levied against individual citizens — a law that passed this past winter — and the Patriot Act and CILP (Citizen Inmate Labor Program), we’re heading at breakneck speed into the reign of the Fourth Reich and the New Holocaust. It will be impossible to work, as God said.

      SO DO IT NOW!!! ALL over the world, the “angelic trumpets” are playing … and while we may say to ourselves, that’s HAARP at work, remember that John described the sound from the sky in the only way he had a frame of reference for it. We’re supposed to be SAVVY ENOUGH to take it to heart as the sign he’s talking about, right? It’s God’s sign to us that time’s almost up, and we’ve got NO TIME to lose, right? Are we on the same page now?

      • Hi cameowalkin

        Good comment.

        Most of the time with churches, they hare happy to see you , but do not want to be asked to do anything for you, indicating a lack of love.

        They are ego centric, focused on their own needs.

        It might be the angelic trumpets being sounded are doing this to compensate for the lack of “trumpeting” we are supposed to be doing for the gospel.

        The government will try to harm the sheriff there in Arizona for his investigations of the administration, which have turned up negative results.

  4. Flybird, churches (in builidings) served their purposes in our lives, teaching the gospel. Many of us no longer need to go to them to hear the gospel. In fact, we are uncomfortable that they do not teach “watching”. I stopped going to church two months ago. I do what I can to spread the gospel in those members of my family who are able to receive it, or might receive it, and on the internet I do write things about the gospel. So I am going outside the building. And you too.

    It is hard not to have the fellowship within the building. I was not getting fellowship much within the building, so that was another reason to leave.
    Now I am without 3D fellowship, for the most part, and hoping to receive it in Heaven.

    • I actually have learned more sitting at my own desk studying Gods word and having the Holy Spirit be my teacher. I also agree about not any of the pastors want to teach about “watching” for what is soon to come. I have talked to several ( about 5) lately and they look at me like I have a disease..and make no comment. literally…just LOOK at me. I pray that people are studying for themselves and watching diligently for the things to come…as they are very soon. Let the Holy Spirit be your teacher. I thank Jesus for him.

    • While it’s good to “get outside the buildings” and spread the Word — the vital part of our mandate from God — and watching, learning and researching are an integral part of this, so you can understand what you’re seeing in the way it presents itself, it bears saying that getting together with your brethren in Christ isn’t a request, but a commandment. We’re to gather together in worship. The Sabbath is to be a praise, worship and prayer meeting — and we’re supposed to be learning about God the rest of the week. Your attendance is to obey and honor God (not the brethren); and show your love for Jesus by praying for and encouraging your brethren, and loving them as you would love yourself. What if you were hungry to learn something about God, but the believer who knew these things decided to themself that their presence wasn’t really necessary anymore? Would God accept that memo?

      Maybe you’ll see where there are unmet physical needs, and get involved in helping solve them for your church brethren. Maybe you’ll see where an anger management and mediation course will help the young believers develop discipline, patience and problem-solving techniques, without which it’s almost impossible to obey or follow Christ. Maybe you’ll realize there’s a hunger for teaching for which there’s no course, and you’ll begin one because you’re the one “in the know”. Don’t count yourself out — God didn’t. Think of the lengths He’s gone to, to save and edify you … and then, be there for your brethren.

      Maybe you feel your church isn’t the right place for you; so hunt for a church that’s alive. But make it your daily mission, so you can begin fully participating, because He’s got people lined up that don’t get it, and need someone to help them understand. Maybe that someone is YOU. Do you really want to face the Father with that lame excuse, that you didn’t really feel it was necessary anymore (before the great Holocaust, which He calls Harvest) … while the people you could have helped scream from the flames?

  5. To All,

    The English word “Church” was derived from the Greek word “ἐκκλησία” transliterated as “ekklēsia” and is defined as “1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating b) the assembly of the Israelites c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously d) in a Christian sense 1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting 2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order’s sake 3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body 4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth 5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven.

    It really has nothing to do with a building at all. We as the Assembly are the “living stones” of the Temple of Yeshua.


    • Alienated,
      I think the point here is that there are living stones and dead stones. The church has turned into an organization that likes the dead stones. Some churches like to keep the flock suckling on milk, rather than eating meat and the result is a flock that sleeps. Reasons for this vary from dictatorial pastors to unsound doctrine to a lukewarm laity. As Mariel said, indirectly, the goal of the church should be to send out a continuous stream of mature Christians to preach. Not to keep them in their four walls tithing and being fed milk.
      Like any addiction, the church has turned into an enabler/enabled relationship Especially in the western world. The pleasure of belonging and security, with the pleasure of being in charge of the flock (power/control). It is incredibly uncomfortable to go on the street and preach. Heaven forbid, if you are still suckling on milk and are confronted by an atheist, or muslim, etc. But this is really the only way that the church will learn to rely on the Holy Spirit and be led by the Holy Spirit.

      “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain…” (Psalm 127:1)
      “So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himsellf being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.” (Eph2:19-22)

      I write this, because the feeling of loss of security, and belonging, or what the social sciences call anomie, is not something to be feared if you are a Christian, It allows you to realize that you are in God’s Household. Many who do not take that step, never see the blessing of knowing God intimately. In a sense, they are building their house in vain. It is when we are in the wilderness that we learn to trust God.

      • Hi Dru,

        I got the point of the post bud. And I agree with what you say above.

        I just wished to convey the above information to those that appeared to associate the church to that of a building, rather than the outward expression of our heart towards others, in both the truth of the Gospel and in performing acts of goodwill.


        • Alienated,
          That was not meant to be critical of what you wrote, it was meant as an elaboration of your last statement. I can see how you saw it as me being a smart donkey. In other words I was not pointing to an error in your post (saying you missed the point), but I was adding more depth to your point for the benefit of previous commentators.

          It all depends on how you interpret “here” in my comment. How is that for a word study? Isn’t it funny how assuming what one word refers to can change the intent of the whole post. I was not trying to steal your thunder, I was adding to your thunder. I should have adressed the comment to “all” and not just to you.

          It reads quite differently with that perspective.
          be blessed

          • Dru,

            No problems.

            And if I had put a 🙂 after “I got the point of the post bud.”🙂 then you would have understood the term “bud” to be more representative to that of friendship. You and I are cool.

            If I ever call you “jack” though………. lol.


      • spoken like a true builder. 🙂

        • Marianne,

          We are in the process of losing what I built with my human hands, and now we as a family are in the Lord’s hands, to build our home.

          We had fought to save this house for years, and it became a burden. What for most is a time of sorrow and grief, for me is a time of relief and optimism for where the Lord will lead us next.

          In my personal Walk, I learned to rely on him, but as a family unit we are now learning that. I believe the church as well must learn to do that together as well, get rid of the security blanket that is so burdensome to maintain, and live and walk in the footsteps of Jesus, and the apostles.

          This is very real to me on many levels. Our sojourn, as a family, begins soon, we may not have to leave Ur and travel as far as Canaan, But where he leads we will follow! How Long that wilderness journey lasts depends on whether we look back, and yearn for the bondage, or whether we trust in the Lord and are content with the manna he provides for us.

          To all who might read this, be ready to make that sojourn, do not be so caught up in the security of this world, and miss his calling altogether.

          When the church goes through this, it no longer is merely an assembly, but it then becomes the household of God. There is something really big here that I am touching on, but I do not understand it yet, to make it intelligible.

          God bless.

          • hi dru

            I am so sorry to hear of your troubles. If there is anything I can do, please let me know. Not sure what I CAN do, but I am willing to try.

            It may be that the Lord is leading you out of that area for safety reasons. There is so much going on now.

          • Dru,

            So sorry brother to hear about your current circumstances. Having gone through my own personal trials, (of which I won’t go into here) I have come to understand that it all comes down to that of “choice”.

            You can look at any difficult situation in life and take it as either being “loss” and “disappointment”, or, (and though you may not see it when you happen to be going through it), “gain” and “exhilaration”. That choice is made easier if we really, really “trust” in God.

            By what you have written above, you appear to have the right attitude and have made the right choice.
            My prayers are with you and your family. The light amidst the darkness, will present itself in His timing, rest assured in that.

            Be Blessed

            • Alienated, Marianne,
              Thanks for your thoughts, I am not looking for sympathy or rescue, only to illustrate a point.

      • I think most churches are the church of Laodicean these days…and so many of the people that are in them. If I am going to bother to go to church I want to hear the down and dirty truth of it all. Not some sugar coated sermon to pacify me.

    • WEll said, alienated.

  6. Amen! Jesus said (go) and make disciples, but we modern Church says (come.)

  7. Much like the Pharisees & Sadducees – we have built our church gatherings on the traditions of men – to our detriment.

    The New Testament Way to Meet
    by Rusty Entrekin

    How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
    If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two or at the most by three, and that by course, and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
    Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
    Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church. What! Came the word of God out from you? Or came it to you only?
    If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
    Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently, and in order.
    1 Co 14:26-40 (KJV)

    Our Modern Way of Meeting

    How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, the pastor hath a doctrine, and the minister of music hath psalms. Let all things be done unto edifying.
    If anyone besides the pastor hath a doctrine, let him not speak; let him hold his peace. Let him sit in the pew, and face the back of the neck of the person which sitteth ahead of him.
    Let the people keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith church tradition. But if they will learn anything, let them ask their pastor after the service, for it is a shame for a layman to speak in the church. For the pastor, he hath a seminary degree, and the layman, he hath not so lofty a degree.
    If any man desire to remain a church member in good standing, let him acknowledge that what I write to you is the command of the denominational headquarters. But if any man ignore this, he shall be promptly escorted out the door by the ushers.
    Wherefore brothers, covet not to speak in the church. Let all things be done decently and in the order in which it hath been written in the church bulletin.

    • Hi Stu,

      Ain’t that the truth eh?
      Rusty appears to have hit the “nail on the head”, with that little commentary.


      • Hi alienated
        Yes – I used to think that the greatest spectator sport on Sundays was watching NFL football but instead I’m afraid it’s going to church on Sundays. Our orthodoxy does not match with our orthopraxy as we claim to believe in the priesthood of all believers but our practices do not reflect that. We mainly rely on paid professionals instead of training up believers to become mature disciples thus we have more converts instead of disciples in the church. As a former pastor on a church staff, “the system” no longer made sense to me and I tendered my resignation many years ago. I am fortunate because I have another career to rely on. Other clergy who also have their doubts about the system can ill afford to leave the pastorate because their specialized education/training leaves them few options for other gainful employment. OK – time to step off my soap box.

        • Hi Stu,

          I would have to agree with much of what you say above, (though I don’t necessarily believe that all churches should be painted with the same brush, for there are always exceptions to what this particular post subject is referring too).

          However having said that, in never having attended church myself, I suspect that you, (in the capacity of your previous vocation), have far more knowledge regarding the subject than I would.
          (I have never been interested in organized religion myself.)

          It has been my personal experience though, in discussing scripture and theology with some of my acquaintance’s, (that have attended church for years on a regular basis), that they haven’t got a clue as to what I am talking about. Which I have always found to be quite curious?

          Nonetheless, I believe that God knows what He is doing, and that Yeshua knows His sheep. And that somehow it will all work out in the end, just as He has planned.

          Hey, soap-boxes serve a purpose once and a while.
          We utilize them here on a regular basis.🙂


  8. I watched a great doctumentary about a Great Man of God during Hitlers reign of terror. His name was Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
    He was one of the first Christians to speak out against Hitler. He had a
    great struggle with his duty to Gods morals and Godly conscience of whether to come against and get into the fight against Hitler or not.
    The Word Spoke to him one day while in safety in New York city. The word was this ” a prophet will not run ” . He then flew back to Germany and became a double spy helping out Germans who would listen to him. He gathered in a few Pastors that stood with him. There were very few that stood up for Christ in that hour in Germany. Most died and Bonhoeffer was hanged about 30 days before the end of the war. They had to go through the great tribulations for thier hour. Tribulation just means “Pressure”. The way into Heaven’s gates is by Pressure to all who believe. By much tribulations will you enter into the Kingdom of God – thats for every believer.
    I’m wondering how long is it going to take the church and Christians today to stand up for what is right in our country. You see there was NO unity among the Christian population to kill the power of influence that Hitler brought, yet it was suppose to be a Christian nation and even Hitler confessed to being a Christian. It’s not just words that stir people it is their lifestyle along with the Word.
    Like I said in a earlier post – fear rules and the people mourn when the evil rules over them. But Soon we going to have to “stand up” and tell it like it is.
    Have we really dealt with our conscience and moral responsibility today in the crisis that is before us.
    A house divided is not going to stand forever. Even if we do not agree on some issue’s. We must agree and “Stand up for the Constitution” of the Truth of the Bible which has a name called “Jesus Christ” are we “ARE NOT” Gods Voice for this hour.
    Marianne may the Lord bless you and faimly. As a 24/7 day care person for my wife these last 2 years and more. I also have had business failure’s, lost houses etc. and many disappointments in life. But God has never let me down and helped me in all my trials and tribulations. He is my fortress, and city of refuge. He will never leave us nor forsake us. Shalom

    • “No one after lighting a lamp, covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.” Luke 8:16

      Now imagine instead of a Jar, we have a church building. That is what is happening in our churches. The light that is hidden is the Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth.

    • True,

      talk is cheap.

      faith is action.

  9. Tom
    It is getting to the point now, in this country, that if something offends someone, we are not allowed to speak it. This especially true when it comes to the Gospel. How is it that the world is to hear the Gospel, if only a few of us are speaking out and sharing it? This is the revival we should be looking for, and not some feel good movement. Yes, we are going to offend people when we point out the sin in the world, so also will we offend them if we tell them they will be facing Judgement. I would rather have them deal with a few hurt feeling now than “hellfire and brimstones” later.

    Which is the “loving thing” to do? Not offend them? Or share with them the redemption from their sinful state? If they do not acknowledge their sin, then they will not see the need for the gospel. This is the heart of why the church is stuck inside, fear of offending people with the Gospel. This message brings hatred from the world, for they do not acknowledge their sinful state. “I’m basically a good person, and a loving God would not condemn us to hell,” is how they would state it. Well without the acknowledgement of our sinful state, there is no “good news” in the gospel. The message falls on deaf ears.

    The church has lost this here in the U.S. especially. Churches have become rehab clinics, and “happy” places to go to on weekends to be entertained, at best, and dens where wolves can prey upon sheep at worst. Church marketing is the greatest evil doctrine to hit churches. The church is no longer acting in God’s interest to reach man with the Gospel, but in its own interest of protecting the institution.

    Alienated is always using the fact that the church (assembly) is not around in the tribulation, as a proof for a pre tribulation rapture. What happens, if that was God’s plan, to do away with the church (institution), and only have the saints remain, knowing that the church would become a “whore” of the world? Another self serving institution of man which opresses rather than redeems. I know this is a hard thing to hear, and pretty darn offensive, but these are questions we need to ask.

    That is my soapbox moment for the night! Before you dismiss it as offensive, consider it carefully. How is that for taking an unpopular stand Tom?? Any revival worth anything in the past has involved two things. The preaching of helfire and brimstone with the True Gospel, and individuals (saints) standing up to the institutional church of its day and facing the persecution associated with that stand.

    I look forward to your replies! None of this was meant to point fingers, only to make you think.

    • Just my thoughts ……

      What if it is God’s plan to take the wise Assembly of Saint’s, (the Ekklesia) and leave the foolish Assembly that have quenched the Spirit, (which are referred to as the Hagios)?

      I’m too old now to use a soap box. A guy could fall and break a hip ya know. 🙂


      • Alienated,
        You know, a funny thing happenned just a few minutes ago. I went to strongs, to search the word “Hagios”, because I remembered that it had a negative root to it. I typed in saints into my search, and the words “Hagios”, and “kletos” came up, with their coresponding definitions. Then my computer blanked out for a second, and I lost my connection. Then I went back to strongs, and typed in saints, and the search result was “Ekklesia”.!!?? Seeing as Mr. Strong is a friend of yours, perhaps you can ask him about the discrepancy??

        • Hi Ya Dru,

          Not sure what happened there bud? I find that amusing though?

          Within the full Assembly, (Ekklesia, or church, the Body of Yeshua itself), there are most definitely individual Saints.
          I believe that the wise one’s are the one’s that strive for relationship, and sincerely do their best to walk in the Spirit, and be obedient.

          Then there are those that believe, yet spend more time caring about the things of the world, rather than maintaining relationship.

          I believe that those that will be “caught up” in what we commonly refer to theologically as the “rapture”, will consist of the former group.
          (This has nothing to do with Salvation itself, and is instead a completely separate event.)

          And you are right, there is a negative component associated to the word Hagios.
          Though it is derived from both “Hagnos”, (Strong’s 53) and “Thalpo”, (Strong’s 2282), it is also considered to come from “Hagos” which is an awful thing?
          Which I happen to find very interesting in that, you could have basically the same word, being defined in two such polar opposite ways? One is considered to be a most holy thing, (wise) where the other is considered to be awful, (foolish).

          Again the former would would be “kletos”, (Strong’s 2822) or “called, invited (to a banquet). (a) invited (by God in the proclamation of the Gospel) to obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom through Christ. (b) called to (the discharge of) some office. (1) divinely selected and appointed.”
          Or “klesis” (Strong’s 2821) or a calling, calling to, a call, invitation to a feast, of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God.

          Kletos being translated into the English “called” within Matthew 22:14, “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

          And Klesis being translated into the English “calling” in Philippians 3:14, (regarding the prize, which is the resurrection), “I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”

          Another point of interest is that “Hagios” is not a noun. It is rather an “adjective”. Hmmmm?


          • Alienated,
            What you overlooked is in Matthew 22:14, “for many are called (kletos), but few are chosen (1588 eklektos).” Kletos meaning among other things, Invited to a banquet, as you pointed out.

            But what you are overlooking is the few that are chosen. These people, whom this adjective is describing, are mentioned in Matthew 24:22, 24, 31, as well as rev. 17:14, where the called and chosen are together with the Lord at war. Now I know that you see these chosen in Matthew 24:31 as the ones chosen to suffer the wrath of the Lord (Tares). But if this is the case, then you are not in the context of verse 24, where these elect are being tried to be led astray by false christs? These verses clearly put the elect in the “tribulation of those days”, and sometime after the abomination of desolation (verse 15).

            Now if you Go to revelation 19:9, we see “Blessed are those who are invited to the feast” or “Kletos”, and in verse 7, you have the “bride who has made herself ready”, who is distinct from the invited guests to the feast. I see no other way to interpret this.

            What I see here, in all of this, is that the chosen bride is the one that is left behind to suffer through the tribulation.

            I just do not see any other way to see it. So i respectfully disagree with the conclusion you have made.

            So yes the reward is to be chosen, as in the ten virgins, to be the bride, but that bride is not chosen to depart the world, but rather to face that tribulation head on and be a testimony to those who do not believe. The angel gathering them, is doing this by leading them to death, as most of the apostles were, and then being part of the first resurrection, aka, The dead in Christ.

            Sorry for the incoherent grammer, and argument, as It is late and I have been up since very early this morning. Many are called, few are chosen, but even those who are invited to the banquet are blessed, though not so much as the bride.
            Buenos noches.

            • Hi Dru,

              Well I guess it all depends upon your perspective?
              I’m busy for the next couple of days, so I’ll try to get back to you regarding as to how I see all the pieces of the puzzle fitting snuggly together by Monday.

              Till then,

    • good point

      revival is when people actually go outside the church and spread the gospel

      feeling good may only keep them inside

      • Marianne,
        In Sociology we have what is known as the dialectic relationship between the individual and society. I am sure if you have been around academia, you are aware of this. Ideally, individuals create a social structure, such as a church, which in turn acts upon successive individuals molding them into members. What happens over time, however, is that the social structure becomes an institution, and the individual seems to no longer have control, and influence on that social structure, as well as the corruption of power which our sinful state exploits, and then the dialectic begins to break down. The individual, becomes a slave to the institution, and the institution, becomes oppressive, forcing compliance. The dynamic relationship between the individual and society becomes stagnant. This is no different in most churches.

        As alienated likes to point out, the church is an assembly of individuals, and was never intended to become a social intitution like we see today. Though the early church had leadership, and councils, dictating and answering controversies, It eventually turned into a monster known as the Catholic church. I believe that Jesus/God knew that this would happen, and planned accordingly. Hence we have revivals, and reformations in the church, Individual men of God, waking up other individuals to the stagnation which has become the church. Any and all churches will or have fallen into this trap, even the ones that came out of the reformers, (See the Lutheran church for example).

        What I see will happen in end times, is that the institutional churches will unite into an even larger and more opressive beuracracy, while the individuals which are true believers will be isolated and forced into the wilderness. This is why the eklessia is not mentioned in revelation after a certain point. We are very nearly at that point in time. This large church will then turn on those saints and persecute them, etc as foretold in the gospels, thinking they are doing the Lords work. Evidence for this is found throughout history, from the inquisition, to the witch trials, to the pursuit and persecution of those believers who did not submit to the church, but submitted to God.

        So yes, revival is outside of the institution of the church, but can we revive some of these small churches before they join with the beast, and it is too late? In other words, there are souls to win within the churches as well. That is why our testimony is so important.!
        God bless.

        • Hey Dru – I will get with you later as well. As for now I got alot to do today but later this evening I will try and get a post in. And no you never offended me at all. Later – Bro. tom

        • dru

          Yes, I remember studying dialectrics and dialectric materialism in school.

          I do not think the size of the church matters if it is already part of the beast…..although I would hope that being a small group, it might be more open to suggestions for improvement.

    • You forget that some sinners are simply respectfully disagreeing. I understand your Gospel. I a familiar with the Bible, the Church, and the teachings of Jesus. But I do not worship. I do not believe that I have an immortal soul.

      Pascal’s Wager states that since the existence of God cannot be proved or disproved through reason alone, it is safer to accept God and live life accordingly. But this to me seems a shallow sort of worship.

      I embrace nature, science, and the beauty of the natural world. I live to help my fellow man. But there is no religious motiviation behind my actions. I live the life of a good christian without any faith or religious conviction.

      And I do not want to be saved. If you approach me and try to persuade me otherwise, you will fail.
      If there is a God, and if he is really Good, I will not burn in Hell for my life. I have led a good, peaceful, charitable life. Any God that would send me to a lake of fire for it certainly isnt benelovent.

      • Andi
        I do not doubt that you have led a good, peaceful, charitable life and that is commendable. However (not being antagonistic) the germane question is: Have you led a perfect, sinless life?

      • Hi Andi
        well I could not pass the opportunity up. You “embrace science, and natue, and the beauty of the natural world”, but the actions of man are destroying this world of ours, would you not agree? Whether you admit it or not, either the world is going to be destroyed, or we as a species will have to enact some form of population control, which by my calculations equates with murder on a grand scale. Who is it that decides who will live or die, and by what criteria?
        You see many of us who have faith in an almighty God believe that only God is worthy and Just to decide this fate, and many of us also believe that he will be doing this within the next few decades, as all the predicted events for the second coming are happening as foretold in the bible.

        If there is a God, which many scientists even believe, He has already set up a his criteria for who will live, and who will die, and it is not based on what we do, but it is a free gift we receive. By his standards, ALL your good works are as filthy rags, as are mine. So you can believe as you want, but do not claim morality of your works as what will save you, for in denying God, you deny a higher authority on which morality is based, making your virtue, as you see it a matter of personal preference.

        God in his mercy and love has offered this gift to all, knowing that many would reject it, because they have faith in man more than faith in him. All are given the opportunity to choose, to serve God or serve man, this is that opportunity for you. You have to serve somebody. The only thing we deserve is death and eternal punishment for sin, which is open rebellion against God, Thereby making man his own god. The One true God, which you know exists in the depth of your soul, will smite those who have elevated themselves as god. So it is like russian roulette with a one one bullet revolver. even a gambling addict knows better than to take those odds. You will think you are wise as you pull the trigger, only Then will you see the foolishness of your ways.

        Do you want to know, how I know, that you know God exists? because you are here trying to disprove his existence. May I suggest that you read from the bible Romans 1:16-32. If this touches that part of your soul that knows that God exists, then there are many here who will show you the way to receive his gift.

        If not, then you can go and face the wrath of God on your own, all the while thinking you are wise. Heck, you are gonna have all eternity to think about it!!

        May he draw you to him.

  10. Hi Dru, and All that may be interested.

    So okay, here is my perspective on the words “elect” in Matthew 24, and what they represent.

    The first thing that I would like you to do, is to just try to not allow for what you already happen to believe, to interfere with my explanation regarding all of this. I realize that is a difficult thing to do for anybody, but just hear me out before you come to any conclusions. I am asking that you go, beyond what would be your normal frame of reference, and instead be willing to go outside that of your 9 dots.

    I also ask you and everyone else to consider this; That those that translated the Bible, no matter how sincere their heart may have been in doing so, were not infallible, “and did have their own preconceived theological biases”. So please keep that in mind, for that may have possibly influenced their translations.

    As well, there is significant evidence available that would suggest that Yeshua spoke Hebrew to His disciples and to the people, rather than Aramaic, (and we know that He certainly wasn’t speaking Greek), however the Greek translations tend to lead us into a more Christian perspective, rather than a Judaic one.
    The utilization of “Christ” within the text, instead of what Yeshua would have stated as “Messiah” being simply one example.

    To attempt to keep this as short in length as possible, I will only place “verses” below and will not post scripture. Therefore I request that you, (and others) have your Bible readily available to refer too and follow along. Okay lets breakdown Matthew 24 together.

    Okay, regarding Matthew 24 and the word “elect”, (which as you know was derived from the Greek “ἐκλεκτός” transliterated as “eklektos” in which its primary definition means “picked out, or chosen) and why I believe what I do. (For those that are unfamiliar with my viewpoint, I will post an additional explanation as to why I hold this view, at the conclusion of this post, and you can decide for yourselves whether it is based upon sound reasoning and proper exegesis or not.)

    First, I suspect that everyone would agree that from verse 4, through to verse 51, that Yeshua is answering His disciples questions that were posed within verse 3.
    Though this answer would most definitely be prophetic in nature, I don’t believe He is referring to the Assembly, (or church) within any of these statements anywhere. Rather, it is my opinion that He is instead referring to the “elect” as being that of “Israel”, and a completely separate group of individuals which are also referred to as “elect”, (or chosen) within verse 31 .

    (NOTE; the disciples in verse 3 asked “3” specific questions.)
    (1) When will these things happen?
    (2) What will be the sign of Your coming?
    (3) When will be the end of the world?

    Verses 4 through 7 are relatively self explanatory. Yeshua is referring to many of the things that we would consider as being history now, (and also of future events as well). We have had numerous false Messiah’s, (that have deceived many), numerous wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes.
    Yeshua refers to these as the “beginning of sorrows.” in verse 8, “But the end is not yet”, (as expressed in verse 6.)

    Now here is where I believe that the translators made a possible mistake within their translation of the word “Then” in the beginning of verse 9, and in utilizing the same word in verse 10.The English word “then” was derived from the Greek word “τότε”, transliterated as “tote”, (Strong’s 5119) and is defined as “(1) then. (2) at that time.”This initially may not sound that significant, (and perhaps sounds a bit petty at first), however here is why I think that the word “then” poses a problem here.

    Within the English language the word “then” implies “a sequence of events” as if this will “happen” at sometime within the future, “after” or as a “result” of something specific previously happening. Where in actuality we know and should understand that this (verses 9 through 12) has been happening to those that follow Yeshua for the last 2 thousand plus years. (see Matthew 10:16-23.)
    So it is of my opinion that “tote” should have been translated as “At this time” instead, which does change the context of what is being said. Now it reads as “In the beginning of sorrows that verses 9 through 12 will also happen”, rather than implying a significant turn of events. Verse 13 expresses no matter what happens, if those that follow Him maintain their faith in Him, they will be saved.

    The above is supported by the fact of what is stated within verse 14. The Gospel is still being preached today “before the end”. So the preceding is not describing a “significant shift in dynamics”, it is instead describing that of history and of that of present day.

    Having said that, verse 15 is where there is a very significant shift. “The abomination of desolation is standing in the Holy place.”
    Verses 15 through 22 describe a specific event where Yeshua advises this “elect or chosen” group of people to flee into the mountains.
    Which would obviously be for their safety, and protection. Yeshua even uses the geographical location of Judea within that sentence for some strange reason?

    Doesn’t this all sound familiar? Isn’t this reminiscent of what is described within Revelation 12 verses 6 and 14? And who is that woman in Revelation 12? Doesn’t Genesis 37:9,10 tell us that she is “Israel”?
    Verse 24:13 of Matthew correlating with Revelation 12:11. And Revelation 12:17 is saying that the Gospel, (testimony of Jesus Christ) will still be preached during that time, before the end, (Matthew 24:14).

    Yeshua states in verse 21 that this is when the great tribulation begins, and that if the days weren’t shortened for this “chosen”, (or elect) none of them would survive, (verse 22). (Psalm 102 could be applicable here.)

    As well, I believe that the beginning of verse 23 should have also started with, “And at this time”. For Yeshua simply won’t be here, and reiterates to His disciples within verses 25 to 27 as to what He has obviously told them before regarding His return.

    I believe there to be another “rather significant error” by the translators within verse 24. There is nothing within the original text that would suggest that “plurality” should have been applied within this verse. This was solely an error in decision made by the translators themselves.

    But don’t simply take my word for that, I will provide the Greek regarding this text for all to see for themselves.
    The English words that were translated into the plural “false Christ’s” were derived from the Greek word “ψευδόχριστος”, transliterated as “pseudochristos”, (Strong’s 5580), and its definitions are, “(1) “a” false Christ, (or Messiah). (2) “one” who falsely lays claim to the name and office of Messiah.”
    The English words that were translated into the plural “false prophets” were derived from the Greek word “ψευδοπροφήτης”, which is transliterated as, “pseudoprophētēs”, (Strong’s 5578) and its definitions are, “(1) “one who”, is acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies. (2) “a” false prophet.”

    ”Therefore in utilizing the original text, the verse should have read, “For there shall arise “a” false Christ and “a” false prophet and shall show great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”, (or chosen). (2 Thessalonians 2:9. and Revelation 13:13,14.)

    Yeshua, (in answering His disciples specific questions), had already stated previously in verses 5 and 11, (in what would be a brief in duration conversation), that there will be throughout history and present day, many false Messiah’s and prophets, (Matthew 7:15). But now He is speaking specifically in respects to the time regarding the “abomination of desolation” and “great tribulation”, where the real, (though counterfeit) adversary players make their move and take charge. And He is also describing a specific chosen, (elect) people that must take flight as quickly as possible, from a specific area from where this is taking place to be able to survive. I believe scripture would reveal that all of this will emanate in origin from, and take place in, “the city of Jerusalem”.

    Consequently then, it is of my opinion that both the words translated as “elect”, (or chosen) in verses 22 and 24, are referring to that of “Israel” rather than that of the “Assembly” or church.

    Verse 28, (if taken in context) is now referring to the preceding verses of 25 through 27, which are Yeshua describing His return. (This verse is very significant because it also is referenced within Luke 17:37., which provides us with more clarity regarding this particular term, as to who, (these elect or chosen) in verse 31 are.)

    Verse 29 is describing what will occur “immediately “but” after” the tribulation of those days, yet prior to that of Yeshua’s return.
    (The “but” or the Greek “δέ”, transliterated as “de”, (Strong’s 1161), being a conjunction and defined as, “(1) but, moreover, and etc.” being eliminated during the process of translation.) So, after the tribulation of those days, “the sun shall be darkened, the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.” This will happen before that of verse 27 and 30 occurs, which are specific to Yeshua’s return.

    Verse 31, (the last usage of the word “elect”) if taken in the correct context, is now relevant to the verses of 27 and 30, (since He has now returned) and would also be relevant to that of 28 as well. For verse 28 is synonymous to that of His return. We see in this verse that at Yeshua’s return, a trumpet will sound, and His angels will gather this “chosen” people, from out of the whole of the Earth. But these chosen have relevance to what is stated in verse 28.
    We have to remember that God rarely if ever, limits anything to simply being one dimensional in nature as well. Though the angels will be gathering others,
    the sounding of the trumpet fulfills another prophecy as well. See Isaiah 27:12,13.

    “One, (or a group of people), can be “chosen” for either “blessings” or “punishment”! It is simply a “adjective”. To associate this word within only that of a “positive” sense is clearly inaccurate.

    So now, let’s take a brief look at Luke to derive a clearer understanding as to what verse 28 here, is implying.
    Within Luke 17, he describes in more detail what Yeshua said, and in a different order, than what Matthew describes in chapter 24 regarding this “chosen” people.

    Luke 17:33., Yeshua is describing what I would believe to be, those that choose to save their life by taking the mark of the beast, and those that are killed instead for choosing not too. And that verse precedes the verses that we are investigating, so it is therefore relevant.
    Luke 17, verses 34 to 37 are now what we are looking at.

    The two men in one bed, the two women that are grinding, and the two men in the field, where one is taken and one is left, is not referring to any form of rapture whatsoever. This is clearly understood by the answer Yeshua replies with to His disciples question as to “Where are they taken Lord?”
    His reply being, “Wheresoever the body, (carcase) is, there is where the eagles will be gathered together”

    So with this information we now should understand, that those that will be taken will not be happy campers.
    Lets go back to Matthew and continue on and remember what we have discovered here.

    Matthew 24 verses 32 to and including 36, could have very well been placed within parentheses. But they as well, (verses 32 to 34) are “also” supportive, for they are as well, specific to that of the nation of Israel. In verses 35 and 36, Yeshua expresses “facts”.

    In verse 37, Yeshua now gets back to the topic of His return, and utilizes the analogy of Noah to get His point across.
    (And here is just a little thing that I would like to include regarding Noah here. Have a quick little gander at Genesis 7:4, for I personally find the reference to the (7) interesting.)

    Within the verses of 37 to and including 39, Yeshua is using the flood as an example of people that had died when that flood arrived. That they carried on with life just the same as they always had, before it took them by surprise. Yeshua is stating that His return will have the same effect on the people at that time.

    He then proceeds directly into the “ones taken and ones left” verses.

    Now, we know from Luke that these ones that are taken are “chosen” for punishment. What we now have to decide is, “WHO TAKES THEM” after Yeshua’s return? Well Yeshua clearly states who that is in Matthew 24 verse 31! Who else will possible take the ones that will be killed and be bird food after Yeshua’s return, if it isn’t the angels of verse 31?

    We know from the parable of Matthew 13:24-30., and its explanation to His disciples within verses 37 to 43, that the harvest is at the end of the world, (Yeshua’s return) and that the reapers are the angels, (verses 39 and 41), and those that offend and do iniquity, (verse 41) will be gathered, (taken) first, (verse 30). This event was foreshadowed within the very first Passover. And it appears to me, that the “chosen elect” within Matthew 24:31 are the “Tares”.

    Matthew 24:42 continues on with further warning, which again would more than suggest that the ones that will be taken are in jeopardy of death. As does the rest of the chapter for those that will be present and alive at His final return.

    Now, if having gone through the above sincerely and with an open mind and heart, a little light has just gone off, and the above is confirmed by the Spirit, then I also have a question that might pose to be interesting to you.

    If you now believe, that within these particular instances that the word “elect” within Matthew 24 have been misunderstood for millennia by the Assembly, or church, and that the first 2 instances are indeed representative to that of Israel, and the 3rd. is representative to that of the “tares”, then I ask you this;
    “Where is the Assembly during this particular time, for in actuality then, it is not mentioned once?”

    Appendix; If I happen to be wrong in my conclusion of the elect in verse 31, (which is entirely possible, I am only human and with that not infallible), then that of Isaiah 27:12,13 would still be applicable, and would only mean then, that all 3 instances of the word “elect” within this chapter are referring to that of Israel.

    Be Blessed & Shalom

  11. Further commentary regarding the word “elect” in Matthew 24 verses 22 and 24.

    I believe that many of our problems as a Church stem, from what were initially incorrect interpretations.

    During the Reformation, though the ideology had evolved significantly, the error of “supersessionism”, or replacement theology remained relatively intact. Therefore when the western denominations were established, that unfortunate ideology was maintained.

    We have simply been conditioned over the years as Christians to identify with the word “elect”.
    Brain washed over the years, so to speak, with past down preconceived beliefs born from Catholic replacement theology.

    When Yeshua spoke the word that was translated into the English “elect” to His Jewish followers then, there was no New Testament to verify as to “who” else He could be referring too. His disciples were Jew’s that would associate the word “elect” to what was written within the Hebraic scrolls of the Tanakh.

    (Just like the Berean’s did.)

    I believe that you will agree, that Matthew was written by a “Jew”, to the “Jew’s”, about a”Jew.”
    In keeping with the context of the book, it’s first purpose and intention (from the introduction of Yeshua’s lineage through to His resurrection at the end), was to preach the Gospel to the Jew’s of the day .Therefore, it is not surprising then, that the majority of Messianic congregations identify Matthew 24 as being more specifically related to the Jews that will be alive at the end of the Tribulation, during the Second Coming of Yeshua.

    As I have said above, the references that would have been available at the time, would have only been in the scrolls, and the verses would have been;

    Isaiah 42:1 utilizes the word “elect” to refer to the Messiah.

    Isaiah 45:4 speaks of Israel being God’s “elect”.

    Isaiah 65:9 speaks of Israel as the “elect” inheriting the land.

    Isaiah 65:22 speaks of Israel as His “elect” building the Kingdom in the future new heaven and earth.

    The Hebrew word that is translated into the English word “elect” is “בָּחִיר” transliterated as“bachiyr”, (Strong’s # 0972) and it’s definitions are as follows; “chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God). ”

    Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time, the “church” did not exist.

    Now I am more than aware that there are those that would stop me right here and state, “The word elect within Matthew 24:22 and 24 is definitely referring to the church!” However, I would ask these people in particular to continue reading, in hopes that they would understand a possible error with that association.

    What I am saying is this;

    Unless something specific has occurred to “effect change” it is only logical to assume that things remain the same. It makes no sense whatsoever, to replace the context of a previously understood “term or phrase”, and apply a completely new definition to it without a specific reason to do so.

    So with that in mind, If one was to carry forth its original definitions, then the church wouldn’t even be considered to be what is being referred to here.

    For within its original context the understanding is meant to either represent the Messiah or Israel itself.

    Yet now, it has taken on a whole new meaning? One of being solely representative of the church as we know it.

    The fact that the New Testament itself, is a continuation of the Old, and that to take the word ”elect” prior to the church being either a physical or spiritual entity, as being representative of such, is what I believe to be the cause behind most of this confusion. Where in actuality it is far more plausible that the word “elect” within these passages is representative to that of Israel.

    The word “elect” in referring to the church, only took effect and became reality in Jerusalem, when the Spirit of promise was given on Shavuot, (Pentecost). Prior to that happening the word elect, rather than referring to the “church” is referring, (depending on it’s context and linguistic setting), as it has throughout the millennia of the Old Testament. Just as it took Yeshua’s actual death on the Cross, His subsequent resurrection, and ascension to the Father to create the New Covenant, (Hebrews 9:16,17) it took the giving of the Holy Spirit as being a necessary determining factor, to create the Church.

    Prior to that happening, since the church itself didn’t exist either physically or spiritually, how could the word elect possibly be referring to it?”

    Therefore, I believe that in this particular case, it isn’t.

    And if it isn’t, then it is far more likely that it is referring to “Israel” at the end of days, during and after the tribulation, and just before Yeshua’s second coming when He establishes the Millennial Kingdom on earth.


  12. Well I got to get into this knowing its not gonna be popular. But truth is truth. Andi is right on one thing – there is no such thing as a “Immortal” sinner. This is why Jesus came to die, and rise again in the first resurrection to give fallen man “Zoe” life. That is Eternal Life.
    The Tree of life is only mentioned in Genesis and Revelation. Alpha and Omega. But first lets just understand the plurality of God Himself.
    430 ‘elohiym {el-o-heem’} from 433
    1. rulers, judges , divine ones, angels, gods
    2. god, goddess, godlike one, works or special possessions of God
    2a. the true God , God
    433 ‘elowahh from 410; 1. false god 2. God
    410 ‘el – 1. god, god-like one, mighty one
    1a. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
    1b. Angels, god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
    1c. God, the one true God, Jehovah
    2. mighty things in nature 3. strength, power

    GEN. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Husband – 376 contracted for 582
    1. human being, person (in contrast to God)
    2. Servant- mankind- champion- great man
    582- man, mortal man, person, mankind
    GEN 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23.Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    GEN. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
    1. If Adam or mankind in a sinful state would have been able to eat from the Tree of LIFE = Eternal Life
    2. Then there would be such a thing as an “Immortal Sinner”.
    3. But God guarded “the way” to the “Tree of Life which was Jesus Christ the WORD of God. That had been with Adam speaking to him in the cool of the day. Before the fall of all mankind = fallen Angels
    JUDE 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
    8. The only Eternal fire there is – Is GOD is a Consuming fire that will destroy you. Like He did Sodom and Gomorrha turning it into ashes.
    REV. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
    Hurt means – The sentence of condemnation – will not hurt or destroy you cause you have been forgiven and covered by the Life that is in the Blood.
    Rev. 20:6 – Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    1. Second – means of the two deaths. One was Adam’s death – the other was Jesus Christ Death burial and Resurrection. I hope you get it.
    2. Power – We have power over Death, Hell, and the Grace being in Christ.
    We by Christ are ruler’s of Eternal destiny- magistrates -Spiritual potentates
    3. Hath Part – our 1st. Old man died in Christ – and now are partakers of Eternal life. Jesus said He came to give us ZOE eternal life – He said He was Eternal life – he is the resurrection, he is the Kingdom of God, etc.
    Rev. 20:14 – And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 2nd. D-E-A-T-H = not eternal life
    REV. 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Remember fire turns things into ashes.
    Mal. 4:1-3 – For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. – gone nothing left of them -not even a root
    2. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    3. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
    4. The Burning of God will leave you Neither root nor branch – your finished – you left your original state and become a Fallen Angel. Proving to us that Angels are mostly mankind. We all started as Angels as soon as the doctor smacked you on the rump and A spirit of LIFE came into your being. But it was not ZOE life –
    PHIL 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
    REV. 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. What city you might ask = Remember the Tree of life was the reward for the 1st. Church age of the Ephesian church. Rev. 2:7 – The tree of life is a “Person” the “City” is a “Person” as well called New Jerusalem – Jeru = water/word and Spirit —and salem – Shalom-Peace – We must start understanding that every good symbol is “IN CHRIST” and every evil symbol is Satan the serpent= unrepentant mankind.
    REV. 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. We know that dogs do not have eternal life.
    1. The very word carnal means – animal appetites. Check me out on that. The tree of Death is exactly what God said it was. You would have to have Christ in you and carnality at the same time. To be eternally dead.
    2. Jesus Christ is the ONLY form of Eternal Life = ZOE
    The Tree of Death brings Death to a Temporal life – Sin brings death Mankind without the Eternal Spirit of God in him. Is a dead man walking in flesh. Just a Human Spirit which is not eternal because of Sin. Sin is Doubt and Doubt bring manifestation’s. = Evil = 17 works of the flesh Gal. 5.
    And the Tree of Life brings ZOE LIFE = Eternal life Children. God’s own sons and daughters to manifestation Rom. 8:18-20. And the 9 gifts of Grace – Gal. 5 Love, joy, Peace, etc. etc.

    Eze. 18:4 The Soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Isa. 66:24 — says the “Worm shall not die” simply means – He will not let God transform him into a beautiful butterfly. He loves sin to much. Man is called a Worm in bible – Worm = serpent –
    Jesus said in Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. God is the only one that is worthy to destroy his own creation.
    II THESS 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    Everlasting destruction is absolutely “annihilation”
    Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    The Word “Part” means – a time span, a measure, to some degree – But is in just a part not Eternal.

    • Tom
      I am not sure where you get this Zoe thing?

      I have heard good arguemnets for the punishment in hell being eternal, and for it not being eternal. So I will not comment on that.

      Equating man with fallen angels, however, is something I have never heard. There might however be some validity to that. For now however, I will see them for what they are, angels, and not humans. They do dwell inside of man as demons though. my reasoning, In second Peter, there is a verse that warns us not to “blaspheme” these “glorious ones”, referring to fallen angels, and Michael, the archangel, has the Lord rebuke them, showing that they are angels. Also Paul warn that we should not believe what an entity speaks if it is contrary to the Gospel he preached, even if they appear as an angel of light. So for me, all these lead me to believe that fallen angels do exist, and are distinct from man, though their demons can inhabit man.

  13. Hello Alienated.
    Once again a brief explanation. Is this how you talk to people in real life… For example: first we will go to the store, and then, and what I mean by then is not then after but at that time, we will sit down and read a book.?? A lot of your theory is riding on the interpretation of “then”, which I would have to ask, Does that mean that there is a place to sit down and read books at the store? In other words, what you are saying is implying facts that are not mentioned in the text. I say this Lovingly, as I know you put a lot of time into this.

    What is funny, is that the this response came to me, early in your study, and had me giggling inside the whole time I read it. I did try and read it with an open mind though? Though keeping a straight face was difficult! I would hate to have you as a literature teacher, we would never get through act 1 or chapter one of any book.

    This, as I discussed with Marie jean on my previous comment, is the problem with hermaneutics. This also reflects a bigger problem with theological thought. In studying the words, we lose track of the literary flow of the writer, or the speaker. Yes Jesus was speaking to Jews, and he was speaking to his disciples who were jews, and he, being divine, knew that they would become the church. You often berate replacement theology, but what you are saying is just another form of replacement theology. Elect of God are just that, elect of God, whether jew or gentile. Christianity and Judaism are one in the same, just as Jacobs sons were Gods elect, even before the nation of Israel existed. The Bible, among all its atributes, is also an incredible work of literature, and should be read as such. There is a literary flow to the story, that if not understood, will lead to all kinds of briars and thickets. Just look at all the wrong turns the church has made in its history, by being so involved in the minutia that they failed to see the big context of the story itself. Calvinism being one of them, dealing with concept of the elect, as we are describing here, which eventually lead calvinists to virtually ignore the great commission. Lutherans had replacement theology. Catholics have issues with confession and the Eucharist. I could go on, but all of these are a direct result of overlooking the literary nature of the Bible, and focussing in on the minutia.

    I say this, not to devalue hermaneutics, but to give them a bigger context. For you, this means reading the bible as you would any other book, noting the characters, the plot, the conflict, the climax and the denoument, which we are living in now. There is only one God throughout, and his elect are his servents. That has been, and will continue to be who is in highest regard throughout scripture. Though they were kings on earth, they always were willing to sacrifice and serve God. Some were better than others, and donned the title “servant of the Lord”, Moses, David, and Isaiah, being three that come to mind off the top of my head. Others, such as solomon, and Israel (nation), did not serve so well, and turned to other Gods. They were eventually punished for this behaviour.

    Christians are no different. We serve the same God, some better than others. This servitude in Christians is taken to a new level, with the “new commandment” as spoken by Jesus himself during the upper room discourse. As well as the sermon on the mount, which was Jesus very first public sermon, or speach. I know I have spoken to you about these before. It will be no different in these end times, we are facing. When the master says to the servent, to do something we must willingly do it, irregardless of the consequence. He will then reward us accordingly. This is why I hold his calling to Lay down our lives for others as the highest of callings, And see this as the act with the greatest reward, being the bride of Christ.

    Now if the reward you seek, is to not have to make that decision, then He has a place for those at his wedding as well, and they are blessed as well. This is why his humaness is so important, for he understands human weekness better than any other god out there. That being said, It is my hope that I will be strong enough to accomplish his mission when the time comes, to be worthy to receive his calling.

    You always talk of the context when you do your word studies, well this to me is the grand context, the theme of the story if you will. Man was created to be a servent of God, but instead rebelled, and made himself like god. If we as Christians are the redeemed of God, then it is his calling we should answer. I say this in no way to criticize you, or the work you do in coming to a better understanding of the bible. this is your service, and I value it, as does God. But you also must understand the context from which I am coming.

    Shalom, and I am still waiting for that word study on hedge in Job, and seals in the revelations. I believe it will answer many of your questions on the restrainer as well. I think that will lead to a beneficial conclusion for believers.

  14. Hi Dru,

    Well I’m glad that it kept you entertained.

    The point was to provide additional information for those that study eschatology, that more than likely believe that the elect in Matthew 24 is referring to that of the church. For if one is under that understanding, they will never figure things out.

    I had found in doing that study that the mistranslation of verse 24, which should have been translated as, “For there shall arise a false Christ and a false prophet, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” to be particularly interesting.

    And in conducting it all again, it only served to solidify my point of view.

    I guess I could have simply stated, “That the elect in Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the Assembly” and left it at that.
    However that is simply not my style.

    God knows how analytical I am as His child, and He uses the way that mind mind works to reveal what He wishes for me to know.

    I realize as to how difficult it must be for others to bother to read what may be quite lengthy, but it is just the way I am.

    It’s not like we are studying “Dick and Jane” here.


    • Alienated
      I sense hurt feelings in your response, and I in no way intended that.
      I was stating that this group known as the elect, is the same irregardless of race. Judaism and Christianity is one faith, in one God. You are standing on the shoulders of theological giants, I am not a theologian, so I have a different perspective from which I approach the bible, that being as literature, and with a social science and philosophy background.

      That being said, I appreciate what you do, as it has added incredible insight into my understanding of scripture, and is not about entertaining me. This is your service to the Lord, and I value it, as I said in my response above. If my response came off as if I did not care, I am sorry. You have to try and understand where I am coming from. Can we learn from one another is the question, Or are we so set in our ways, that we will never come to that epignosis of scripture. That is why he says where two or three are gathered in his name, he will be there. The enemy of wisdom is pride, for with pride, comes the knowledge that we know all, which is not knowledge at all, but foolishness.

      You have and will continue to hone my blade, in making my understanding of scripture greater. Do not be so stubborn as to not let others who are in Christ do the same for you.

      I have asked others, can the teacher still be taught, or can the pupil teach the teacher? This is a fundamental tennet of the socratic method that Marianne is so fond of, that is often ignored by the proponents of the method. Without this, the teacher becomes a dictator leading to their singular understanding becoming truth. They are, in fact, creating mimics, and not thinkers. It is a mutual, and thriving relationship between the pupil and the teacher in which both grow in their epignosis. I am not asking you to be a mimic, but a thinker. Neither should you be trying to create mimics but thinkers. The only value in a mimic, is that they puff up one’s ego, the value in other thinkers is wisdom. When thinkers come together it is exhilerating, and challenging at the same time.

      My challenge to you, is to try and read Mattwew 24, with the context of the servant of the Lord relationship, and put aside the hermaneutical hat. I believe the Spirit will then lead you to your next hermaneutical study. Read it as if you were one of the students(disciples) asking the questions, put yourself in the setting, as any person who reads literature does.

      God bless

      • Hi Dru,

        No, not hurt feelings…….. more like a sense of frustration.

        Before I proceed, (and during) the process of theses studies, I pray that God guides me to understand His truth, and I conduct these studies for only one specific purpose. And that is with the hopes that the information somehow edifies the Assembly, (though I do gain more knowledge myself, the motivation is not self-serving at all).

        Then when I post what I consider to be pertinent, and see its overall length, (in its resemblance to that of an entire epistle), I realize what a useless endeavour it has been. For more than likely there will be few that will read it.

        I do understand your position, and the point behind what you are saying regarding your approach as to how you read the Word as literature, appreciating both the social and philosophical components. I understand because I used to do exactly the same, but have over the years, being drawn to this process of dissecting it by utilizing and understanding the original text.

        I would agree and disagree with a statement that you make above. You say, “I was stating that this group known as the elect, is the same regardless of race. Judaism and Christianity is one faith, in one God.”

        Though I would agree that both only worship one God, the similarities between the two more or less end there. In respects to the “elect” it is necessary when in the process of eschatological study, to determine the differences between all of these, what are distinctly different groups. God has in place, unfilled Covenants, (which will be fulfilled) with both that of Christianity and that of Israel, and in solely grouping these Covenants together as being one single entity, inhibits our ability to fully understand how it will all come to fruition.

        Personally I don’t consider myself to be a teacher, I am simply fellow student within this immense classroom of peers, which are attempting to discover the same truth. With that said, I am glad that I have in some way “honed your blade” as you say, as you and others have also done for me.

        Having read this particular chapter in the past in the way that you have suggested, it then led me to conduct its hermeneutical study, which in doing so led me to the above conclusions. Which are God, fulfilling one of His Covenants with that of Israel rather than that of the Assembly or Church. When coming to this realization, many aspects of what I previously found to be confusing simply fell neatly into place.

        I do thank you for taking the time to reassure me if I had of had hurt feelings. Do not think that it is unappreciated. However as stated above, it was more of frustration than anything. You and I are cool.

        Any way’s, You have a good one.
        Shalom & Be Blessed

  15. Alienated,
    whether you like it or not, you are a teacher. You have been given a gift, that you use wisely. When I first started conversing on this site, you laid credence to an argument I was making with James about Salvation being equated to belief and repentence. Ever since then, I have learned to trust the Spirit. Though I had no knowledge of the original language, which I readily admit to, Your words encouraged me to continue. I am very much a product of that encouragement which you bestowed upon me. This is your Spiritual Gift, when you let yourself use it.
    I understand your frustration, with me especially. That is Just who I am, stubborn as a mule. This does not mean that I am not learning from you and others. Christians needs people that will defend the doctrines of the faith. Christians Need a mule, Just as God used a donkey with Baalam, to turn aside the onslaught from the world which we will face. Just as Stephen stood up to the High priest, being full of the Spirit, and confronted them. He died for his testimony. Your calling may not involve this, and I say this not to belittle your calling. Polycarp, is another, who laid down his life for his Brothers in the church of Smyrna. Which I believe kept the true church alive at that time. These are servants of the Lord, Just like Moses was a servant of the Lord, and Abraham before him, and Noah. They were under different covenents, yet they were servants of the same God, and suffered That others would be blessed.
    That being said, do not let your frustration get the best of you. Your ability to teach and encourage is the “best of you”. I Just disagree with your conclusions on this one. Not because your argument is week, but because They are not complete. They do not take into account the full context of scripture, and they fall prey to the same replacement theology you know is wrong. It is similar to reverse racism in our country. The reaction to the injustice, has not solved the problem, only created another one.

    I hope you understand this. Reactionary theology has resulted in many dead ends.

    • Hi Dru,

      Thank you for expressing the above.
      I am blessed every time God utilizes me as His humble instrument, to lift up anyone.

      And you are more than welcome to believe what you wish regarding the word “elect” within Matthew 24 as well.
      However, in considering what would be the strength of my above argument, do you not find the following the least bit curious?

      Yeshua’s prize possession and what He died for is “His Assembly”, and though He utilized the word “ekklēsia” twice previously in speaking to His disciples (Matthew 16:18. and 18:17.), why would He neglect to utilize the word, (His prize possession), even once, during His answer and prophecy in respects to the end of days in this chapter?

      To me it only serves to explain as to why we don’t see the same word within the book of Revelation, after 3:14.


      • Alienated,
        Look at the word “Obtained” in 2 Peter 1:1 “Lagchano” in the greek. This word is a unique word, Appearring only four times in the NT. Once in regard to John the Baptists father, Just before the angel appeared to him, Once at Jesus’ death, and once when referring to Judas, who was selected out of the twelve to be the son of destruction (Luke 1:9, John 19:24, Acts 1:17 respectively), and Once here in 2 Peter1:1. Now read verses 1-15 with that in mind of this chapter, and tell me if this fits your thesis above. Peter in verses 12-15 equates himself with having “obtained” this faith, and this epistle is specifically written for those especially in the end times, as is evidenced by the topics therein.
        Perhaps this will help you understand where I am coming from.

        • Hi Dru,

          Sorry but I don’t see the connection at all?

          Verses 1 and 2 are Peter’s introduction, and I just don’t see the connection between the Greek word “λαγχάνω”, “lagchanō”, translated into the English, “to them that have obtained” or its definition, as correlating with Matthew 24 whatsoever?

          The rest of the chapter is expressing the need to make our calling and election sure, by demonstrating specific attributes of our faith, such as goodness, knowledge, self control etc. and Peter expressing that he is going to die soon, and that our faith is not some invented fable, and that he was an eyewitness to everything, etc.

          Chapter 3 has to do with end times though, but I still don’t see the connection.

          So fill me in if you like.
          (Sorry to frustrate you this time.)


          • Alienated,
            very well, “lagchano” means To obtain by Lot, to receive by divine alotment, obtain, to cast lots. This is a strange word to use in describing faith, as it is not alotted, but received, as a gift, by the individual. Why would Peter use this word here? Does God roll dice to determine who will receive his gift? I think that you would answer no. This is probably why most of the translators translate this as obtained or received, But in the other translations of this word, we always see “lot”, Luke 1:9 “…He was chosen by lot”, John 19:24 “… let us not tear it, but cast lots” Acts 1:17 “… was alloted his share in the ministry…” These are ESV translations.

            So let us see how this verse sounds If we use the other words in place of obtain, as you did above.
            “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have been [chosen by lot] a faith of equal standing with ours (ours refering to???) by the righteousness of our God and saviour Jesus Christ.”
            I will let you do “alotted” and “cast lots” and “receive by divine alotment”
            Now many would say the “ours” is referring to Jewish believers, Barnes being one of them from my brief research tonight. But could it not be referring also to the apostles, of which Peter is one?? If it is the former, Then we as Gentile believers and servants are to be equated with the elect spoken of in Matthew 24. If it is the Latter, then we as gentile believers and servants are to be equated with the elect in Matthew 24. No I did not mistype here. Peter is both a Jew and an apostle, Is he not?

            My first point, We as Gentile believers, and the elect of Matthew 24 are equals, not opposites.

            Now lets try to see if their is something else here. Knowledge upon Knowledge as you call it. To be “called” is different from being “chosen”. I think we established that earlier, Correct me if I am wrong. Basically, “Many are called few are chosen”. Gramatically, would it not be safe to say we receive a calling, But we are chosen by another entity, in this case God. Would this not be in line with “receiving a divine Alotment”, Or we are “alotted an election by God”. Basically, we do not choose this God does. So this letter is adressed to those believers, who are not jews, nor apostles, who have an equal faith with Jews and apostles, which is not received but chosen by God. If I stopped here, you should get the reason why I referred you to 1 peter1:1. But I will continue into the theoretical, and see if you can see where i am headed.

            You say that there is knowledge upon knowledge, or epignosis. What I am saying, is that there is also faith upon faith. “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the POWER of God for salvation to everyone who believes (faith 1, calling), to the jew first and also to the greek. 17. For in it (faith 1) the righteousness of God is revealed (faith 2, election) FROM FAITH FOR FAITH, as it is written, “the righteous shall live by faith”” (Romans 1:16-17) As Peter puts it, “For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self control, and self control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection and brotherly affection with love…therefore,brothers, be all the more dilligent to make your calling (faith 1) and election (faith 2) sure, for if you practice these qualities, you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an enterence into the eternal kingdom of our lord and saviour Jesus Christ.” ( verses 5-11)

            To be continued, as it is 2:00 am here.

            • Hi Dru,

              Please allow for me to interject here for a second.

              Not to make light of your argument, (or where your train of thought is going with this) but if we are not talking about distinctly separate groups here, (and in utilizing the fulness of scripture), why does Yeshua go directly into the parable of the Ten Virgins within His discussion, (which as you know), consists of two distinct groups.

              I have to head out, but I’ll check back in later.


  16. My goodness: already lots of great replies to this article! With my vision issues and limited time, I could not read all of them, but felt a nudge to share my two or three cents here…

    This article explains well, the concept of “bomb shelter” Christianity: being a bless-me club with a group of like-minded believers, very busy with “church life”.. and hunkering down/hiding out waiting for the Rapture. Jesus didn’t come to establish “The Church”, but the Kingdom of God. He mentioned the Kingdom around 130 times in the gospels, and “church” only two or three! The early Church did fine till the Emperor Constantine ripped away its Jewish foundation and rebuilt on one of Greek philosophy… and the Church digressed into the Medieval Church. -full of empty rite and ritual, hierarchical legalism, and deification of humans …. all in the name of getting people to commit themselves to it, assuming that also meant ‘salvation’.

    The Reformers at least recaptured salvation by grace, but not wanting anything “Catholic”, they turned their back on the genuine supernatural of God. -leaving us a stripped-down gospel w/ little in the way of spiritual disciplines, to know God for ourselves. So Institutional church remained, and we have a laity still ‘watching’ the paid professional clergy to “do ministry”.. Thank God, for the revivals He has sent, nearly every century since. Each one has re-imparted a missing element to His Church, and we are on the verge of the largest move of God yet: the latter rain!

    We are in the end-times, and God has been rearranging His Church over the past few decades to get OUTSIDE THE FOUR WALLS and BE the Church.. to take the gospel out to where the lost and hurting are! May we each allow God to lead us to a church body so we can be a part of it.

  17. Many believe in the name Jesus do not love as well as some who do not believe in that name.

    How could you possibly suggest that you are automatically saved for believing in a name when it was said, “Many of those who call me Lord….Did we not preach in your name…etc. etc. and I will say go away”.

    It is about love, it was always about love. And when Jesus is talking about belief he is talking about belief in him as he is, when he comes, as a body. Not your own self-created beliefs that comfort you. You will not get anywhere in life, thinking you are saved, because then what motive to you have to become saved? Are the Christians of today as good as the pharisees of yesterday, when there are people all over the world living and trying to love, and God sees them no different, except for the simple good things they do for eachother with love. Be careful not to create an image of God in your mind that suits only yourself. It is easy to see everyone else as the villain, but how hard is it to see the hypocrites we can be ourselves?

    Jesus does not care about churches, pastors, religion. He cares about love. As is written all over the bible. Their hearts will be callous and their eye blind, should they turn to love and be healed. But if I point a finger at you, you, you, or you your defenses come up? Well let me tell you, Jesus says now, you are doing the opposite of what he wants you to do. You stand at the gates of religion, use his name, preach truth’s in his name, therefore dragged his name through the mud. So how do you think he is going to treat you for doing this? These are just words to you. What harm could this person who writes them do to you? You simply believe what suits you! Well, the Jesus you want is never coming. He is not coming to say, thankyou for dragging my name thru the mud, and twisting everything I ever said, So to you he will be the devil. But did you ever hear of the word called love? What has that got to do with church? What has that got to do with anything but love? So shame on you all. All of you.

  18. Ps. dont spam my mail with crap, or I will come back and say more

  19. Dear “alienated” lord bless you for your studies.
    Just a few thoughts here.
    1. The word Israelite always means Jew and Gentile
    A. That is the way the Rabbi’s taught it.
    2. The Church is indeed just a carrier for the Bride = the elected of God
    a. Rev. 18:4 says to “Come out of her” thats all religious systems of men.
    3. Gal. 6:15-16 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the “Israel of God”.
    Strong’s –Israel of God = Christians, the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), for not all those who draw their bodily descent from Israel are true Israelites, i.e. are those whom God pronounces to be Israelites and has chosen to salvation.
    4. Jesus was not a Jew — HE Was GOD
    5. Jesus did not have Jewish Blood in him — it was the Blood of God –
    6. Abraham the father of the nation of Israel was an Israelite – A gentile first. Out of the land of Ur = Babylon
    7.Davids mighty men – many of them were Gentiles – This was the army of God.
    8. Israel did have Proselytes – Naomi and Ruth being her convert.
    9. Rahab the harlot – a Gentile grafted in.
    9. So to me its always been a Nation called Israel to bring in all who would convert. – It is the “Elected” of Jew and Gentile – many are called = the world but “Few” are chosen.
    10. Circumcisen made them different from all other nations.
    11. Peter’s Message converted the house of Cornelius.

    MATT 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    1. The One’s that understand the mysteries of God are the true Israelites today. They have the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” and His salvation.

    As far as the salvation for Israel it will have to come just like it did the Gentile church. They will have to hear the True Gospel and respond to it.
    Not some building with a anti-christ in it. The Dome of Islam has been right next to Temple mount since about 666 – 673 A.D somewhere in there. Even today when Israel prays its over the voice on loud speakers next door glorifying Allah. The anti-christ is living in the whole middle east. Just like it does America. The signs of the time are already fulfilled. Lord bless you dear brother. I cannot remember all the things on your post. So I will read it again. We all need brother’s like yourself that do study the Biible and I appreciate your time – Its interesting to discuss the Word amen. Bro. York

    • Dear Tom,

      As I stated to you before of “the Seven Spirits of God” thread, “I have no doubt that your heart is towards God, and that you have accepted Yeshua, as your Savior. So I am certainly not questioning that aspect of your spirituality whatsoever. Neither does what I have to say have any relevance to your value as a member of the body or as a human being….. however having said that, I have difficulty in agreeing with your theology.”

      We simply aren’t on the same page.

      To address just 2 of your points above;

      (1) “Israelite”, (אִישׁ) was not “initially” representative to that of both Hebrew and Gentile. Though after Yeshua’s death on the cross, the term “new creation” is synonymous with one being included in what is now a “Spiritual Israel”, it was specifically representative to that of Jacob and his lineage, consisting of the 12 Tribes. They were God’s chosen (בָּחַר), “bachar”, and where to be a distinctly special and separate people than that of, (“גּוֹי” goy, or goyim) nations, which is the term for any other people, than that of Israel. See Deuteronomy 7:6.

      (2) You also say that, Yeshua was not a Jew, had no Jewish blood within Him, and imply that He was “only” God.
      Though I would agree that He was God in the flesh, (John 1:14., Romans 8:3., 1 John 4:2,3.), He was also born of a woman and fully man. (Galatians 4:4.)
      The lineage of Mary in Luke 3:23-38., is provided as evidentiary proof that Yeshua is indeed a descendant of King David, and going all the way back to Adam.
      Being a man was a necessity for Him to be able to atone for our sins, and to “fulfill” and redeem us from the Law. (See Hebrews 9:15-17., Hebrews 5:1-10., Hebrews 7:11,12.)

      To me you appear to “cull and utilize” verses from the Word, and take them out of context to support your point of view.
      I am sorry but I am concentrating on a variety of studies at the moment, so I will not respond further to any of your posts.


    • Well Tom York I have to admit that I never heard this said before but have seen and heard Catholics get angry when they were reminded that Jesus was a Jew. What you have said here I do not believe to be true for Jesus is the branch come of Israel and the flesh and blood body he had was of a Jewish one raised in a Jewish country and community. He was of Mary and of the Holy Spirit and where you came up with this one I am not interested in knowing.

      4. Jesus was not a Jew — HE Was GOD
      5. Jesus did not have Jewish Blood in him — it was the Blood of God –

      alienated has said all things well and as concise as I might but he obviously has great patience in reviewing all of the conflict. Did someone say that we might have gone to the same church somewhere on this site? Hmmm it would seem so, though we haven’t for what he has said I also think the same… I do question however a portion with regards to Rev 15: 14 – 20 regarding the first reaping as being the harvest of the earth, the saved and the second reaping the vine of the earth being the wicked left to grow amongst the wheat harvest? For the Lord left it all to grow together did he not? Excellent refreshing, alienated and most appreciated by myself just to listen to this entire study.

  20. Hi Dru,

    (It’s getting too skinny up above.)

    Firstly, I can only speak for myself here, but I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised if I were not the only one that experiences this on a regular basis.
    When I lie down to go to sleep, I am thinking about scripture, and when I awake in the morning, I realize that I am either in the process of praying, or thinking of scripture still.

    Well this morning when I awoke, I did so with a “start” and realized that I may have just had an epiphany. While running around and doing my thing today, a whole new concept had entered my mind regarding Matthew 24. Though I had entertained the thought before, (and had actually expressed it to you Dru on some other post a some time ago) I had neglected to truly consider its possibility. That is until today.

    Yeshua states in Matthew 21:43., that the kingdom of God will be given to another nation that will then bring forth its fruits. We understand this nation to be comprised of all nations, tribes and tongues that have accepted and follow Yeshua as their Savior.

    This would now mean that we have two distinctly different nations that both worship the same God. One of these nations understands that Yeshua was and is the Messiah, whereas the other does not recognize this fact.

    If what I propose within my study of Matthew 24 is indeed correct, and that the “elect” that is utilized within this chapter is representative of Israel and God fulfilling His past Covenant that He had made with them, then perhaps this would also add additional clarity to verses 43.

    What if in what has been translated into the English within the King James as, “the goodman of the house”, (which was derived from the Greek, “οἰκοδεσπότης” and transliterated as “oikodespotēs”, (Strong’s 3617), is within its context here, Yeshua utilizing its definitions of that of “master of the house, or householder”, to that of Israel?

    Then what He might be saying here in actuality is, “If The nation of Israel had known when I would come, it would have watched for Me, and would have realized Who I Am, and would not have suffered the nation, (Israel) to be broken up.”

    Both verse 42 that precedes, and verse 43 that follows, leaves little doubt that He is the context in which verse 42 should be understood as describing. And the only “house” that existed when He “came as a thief” was that of Israel.

    So what I had previously thought of, and neglected to fully consider, (until waking up with this “start” this morning), was that the parable of the Ten Virgins is very possibly describing the “wise” (i.e. Those that believe in and follow Yeshua) and the “foolish” (i.e. Those that didn’t recognize Him the first time, and still don’t to this very day.)

    I still have to perform my due diligence regarding this, but thought that I would just throw it out there.

    • Alienated
      this sounds like Al’s domain, the nations thing.
      Would america be that nation, I mean we are a nation made up of nations, are we not? Oh I hope not!, I mean we got a long way to go.

      I think, as I stated in the comment that I posted, that you are on the right track with ten virgins, but I disagree with the players and the results, or your conclusions.
      I think that what I stated above or below, depending on where this comment ends up, confirms that the five wise virgins are indeed the bride. and that the oil is the HS that is in abundance. But that your study points not to the rapture, but to the tribulation, where they will be selected. The rest will be invited to the Marriage, and thus blessed.

      I am a little spent right now as that last comment took alot out of me, but I believe that Jesus says the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. If the millenium is the great sabbath, that he was referring to here, then this means that there is no gurantee of a millenium? In other words, whether there is or is not a millenium depends on us, and the Lord of the Sabbath finding a suitable bride..?????

      Believe me, when I say this, what I wrote above (or below) is all new to me. Though my comments before have hinted at this, I have never been able to express it like this before. There is a growth in my understanding of these matters, that I would not have if I were not interacting with you. For that I am humbly grateful.

      My mind is going crazy right now, as I believe that this may pertain to the dates, that brought me to this site originally. That they may be a deadline so to speak, and that we are running out of time.

      The Lord gives me the revelation, or epiphany, if you will, and then my brain tries to cobble together what it all means, and how it ties together. I told you and Marianne that I was touching on something really big earlier when we were talking about the church being stuck inside, well, I believe this is it, and I am still trying to come to terms with it and make it more intelligible.

      You can probably see the smoke coming out of my ears right now.
      Good night, and God bless, and I look forward to waking up in prayer, but usually it is either the kids punching each other or that pesky alarm clock thingy.

    • I do the same, but, on what you asked dru I have believed the scriptures to be exactly as your epiphany has said but the I have believed this for over half of my life alienated.

  21. Alienated,
    Part 2 is here. I see you came and made a statement before I could finish my argument, which was heading to the ten virgins so You jumped the gun, so to speak.
    What My points above are just to remind You.
    1. We as “elect” gentiles are to be equated with the elect Jews, namely the Apostles, to whom Christ directed his Olivett discourse to. (please note the disciples came to him “privately saying…” in verse three.) This whole chapter was not spoken to Jews, per se, but to disciples and apostles privately, His personal “chosen ones”. There is indeed “another group, as we established above that you must of missed or I did not emphasize well enough, that being those who are accept the calling. As in Many are Called, few are chosen.
    2.Peter in his second epistle adresses his letter to those who have been chosen by God to the same faith as these apostles had, which is not just the basic faith of repentence and belief, from which salvation is derived, but a higher faith, of that being chosen by God as servants, to accomplish his purposes. All of matthew 24, and 25 Pertain to this select group, which is inclusive of the apostles. And because of the introduction in 2 Peter this promise pertains to other believer who have attained this election by alotment, ever since this letter was written. My Faith is in this promise, Just as Abrahams faith was in a promise not seen. It is Faith within faith, or faith built upon faith.
    This should more than adequately answer your question, that there are two groups of believers, the called, and the chosen, And that the chosen are not to be defined merely as Jewish believers, but that they are from amongst all believers, Jew and Gentile. (the latter statement is the correction of the error you made in your thesis.)

    We know that this group which are chosen by God, will be the bride of Christ, as your ten virgins study accurately states. The basis for their being chosen is their purity, and by alottment. Having more than enough oil, so to speak. So what are they chosen, or set apart for? Is it to be rescued via a rapture?, or is there a precedent in the past for certain “chosen” ones who are “pure”, being set apart, and for what are they set apart?

    Leviticus 16:5 ff
    “5. And he shall take from the congregation (Note the parallel to ekklesia) of the people of Israel two male Goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering.
    6. Aaron shall take the bull as a sin offering for himself (the high priest) and for his house.
    7.Then shall he take the goats and set them before the Lord at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
    8. And Aaron (the Highpriest, in our case Jesus is the high priest) shall CAST LOTS over the two goats, one LOT for the Lord, and one LOT for Azazel. (who or what is Azazel?)
    9. And Aaron shall present the Goat on which the lot fell for the Lord as a sin offering,
    10. But the Goat on which the LOT fell for Azazel shall be presented ALIVE before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away INTO THE WILDERNESS to Azazel.”

    Azazel? who or what is Azazel Read the Book of Enoch, and you will see the name. Jesus, who by all is considered the scapegoat descended into the depths of hell, where we find Azazel. But it is the other Goat, which I am interested in, that was chosen, that pertains to this argument, who is to be the “Bride of Christ”. His Lot fell for the Lord, and He was killed as a sin offering. Did Christ fulfill this offering? Or is this something he left for his bride to fulfill. No, Jesus took our sins away and covered them with his blood (Refer to passover lamb), but he did not fulfill this second Goat sacrifice. This one will be fulfilled by the HS in us, which have been sanctified in the Spirit. This is a hard one for the church to accept. Jesus covered it all, as most believers believe. But he did not fulfill the fall feasts, as most of you here believe, that they will be fulfilled at his second coming. The question is “will he find faith” Or Faith upon faith? (see luke 18:8)

    The implications of this are staggering. This understanding is what we have lost from the early apostolic church. The onus is on us, those who are being sanctified by the Spirit. If we fail, the result of his wrath is utter destruction, as Malachi puts it. There is no rapture then. The scape goat did his thing, will we fulfill our part. Will that number be fulfilled in revelation 6:11?

    I pray the Spirit in you confirms this message, because a lot is riding on it.

    Understanding this is where revival will come from.

    Will we lay down our lives for our brothers, and overcome?

    Now I am sure you can rip my theory to shreds doing hermaneutical studies. But what happens if this is correct, and you discredit what I have said here being full of the Spirit?

    This is faith upon faith, not works. this is about sanctification and purification, and not legalism. This is about obedience with a pure heart, and not forced virtue. This is brotherly affection, and love. Make your calling AND election sure. The time of grace is soon coming to an end, and the time of his wrath will begin, which is either going to result in a new creation or utter destruction.
    God bless the spirit that receives this message, and readies themselves.

    • Dru,

      I’m not ignoring you there bud.

      I have read all that you have written and will contemplate over it, and get back to you within a couple of days with a response.

      Until then,

      Shalom and be Blessed.


      • alienated,
        It is what it is, and the Spirit is convincing me of it as I type. It is there for you, whether or not that is your election, Irregardless both called and elect are blessed. I think that this is what Calvin glimpsed when studying election and calling, but he failed to understand that it had nothing to do with salvation, and it lead to his followers demise, because they did not reach out to those in need of the Gospel, saying if they were predestined and called they would find the Gospel. It really is so simple when you think about it. Calvin Got so much right, but this one point messed it up.

        I will be wrapping up my stay shortly, and will sum up what I have said here then. You are very much a part of this, whether you agree with it or not. Just try to see it with an open heart and leave room for the possibility (choreo).

        God bless.

    • Dru I am no authority I know but I remind you that Christ fulfilled the offering just as the priest fulfilled once a year at Yom Kippur and the priest prepared himself for taking the offering into the holy of holies, the people waited for the Lords’ acceptance. There was an awesome fear and tripidition and I understand the priest had a rope tied about his leg and he could be pulled out if he died. Point is Christ was the sacrifice accepted of the Lord and simple trust in His faithfullness is all He requires of all who repents, believes and confess their sins. There is no other sacrifice for Jew or Gentile and He has quite completed it all, wonderfully for His elect, Jew first, Gentile second. The failure of five of the ten virgins dru was they did not take enough oil with them to keep their lamps burning. None other, as harsh as it may seem it is for no other reason. The Holy Spirit reveals all truth and none of His children can live without Him. It is with fear and trembling we work out our salvation and always keeping our communication open is the constant prescence of the Lord as our guide, just as most people here are doing so or they would not be seeking understanding and fellowship with each other. It is the Holy Spirit bringing us all into all truth. Keeping our lamps filled. Sometimes Dru it is as simple as that. He knew us before we were born as we come to know Him more and more He draws us closer and I believe that is the election, the love we have for him grows. Love is the opening door as that song in the 60’s said. It is true. When your lamp goes out there is no oil or light and our hearts grow cold to His beautiful chastening love and teaching.

  22. For the day will come when they do not want to know the truth, but rather have their ears tickled…
    And IF the tree is full of apples, and people are only wanting to eat fast food from KFC?
    Jesus only poured into faithful servants, most did not want to know him, nor follow him….or pick up their cross.
    Becuase the people love it so.

  23. Dear alienated –
    Point 1 — I did not say God was not human. Yes indeed HE was human
    I said it was not the blood of a Jew; it wasn’t the blood of a Gentile. It was the Blood of God. See?
    Anything in the male sex produces the hemoglobin. So we find out like the hen laying the egg, she can lay an egg, but if the rooster, the mate, hasn’t been with her, it won’t hatch. It’s not fertile.
    Mary was only the incubator that carries the egg, an
    d the egg from woman would have to come by sensation. The germ comes from the male, and in this case, the Male was God Himself.
    God Spoke Himself into existence just like Adam was to speak the Word and create children = SPOKEN WORD CHILDREN – is what we are today.
    ACTS 20:28 which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    Mary’s blood had nothing to do with it. Good Catholic’s believe Mary was Divine – but I do not. She had to receive the Holy Ghost like everybody else did.

    Point 2— You said – To me you appear to “cull and utilize” verses from the Word, and take them out of context to support your point of view.
    I say — You are the one that is saying the Bible translator’s made mistakes. I think you are the one that is adding and taking away from The inspired Word of God. To prove your points. You will never understand the bible with just common sense it takes a Spritual Revelation. The Word is Spirit and life.

    Fare ye well Brother – I will not bother you again.— Bro. York

    • Well there Tom,

      You just proved what I had previously stated above, within your last post here. (Regarding culling verses to support your own point of view.)

      Acts 20:28 would indeed suggest that the Church of God was purchased by His own (Yeshua’s) blood.

      However the need for you to brush up on your supposed medical degree regarding life sciences and its allied applications regarding Haemoglobin, has been made painfully apparent.

      Neither sex is the contributor as into providing Haemoglobin. It is a basic necessity of all blood bearing animals, (including fish), of both sexes, that is comprised of a conjugated protein, consisting of “haem” and the protein “globin”, which gives the red blood cells their characteristic color.
      Its purpose is to facilitate the carrying of oxygen from either the lungs or gills to that of the tissue.

      And if you believe that Mary, in carrying and nurturing Yeshua inside of her womb for a period of 9 or so months, (and then breast feeding him to boot), had no effect whatsoever, in that her blood was not involved within that nourishment, well I simply do not know how to respond to that state of ignorance with other than a “sigh”?

      Above when in disagreement with your theology, I took particular care in expressing to you that I didn’t question that of your spirituality.
      However, simply because I happen to disagree with you, you then chose to question mine? (A clear demonstration of ego and pride.)

      In translating any piece of work from one language into another, it is not uncommon for mistakes to be made. Simply because I have found one within Matthew 24:24., where according to the original text, the aspect of plurality would appear to be an arbitrary and incorrect decision, and have also proposed alternatives for the word “then” in some instances, (based upon the actual definitions of the original word), would certainly not make me a “heretic” as you have implied.

      Thankfully, you are NOT my Judge.

      • Actually, alienated,
        When a child is in the womb, the mother and the child’s blood never mix. Otherwise there would not be multiple blood types from mother to child, as the immune system of the mother would destroy the fetus. There is a Unique attachment, yet separation between the two. Yes the mother nourishes, and brings oxygen to the baby, but the blood never mixes. That is my anatomy lesson for the day. I am sure Marianne could confirm this.

        Not taking any sides on the debate though. You two are polar opposites, if you know what I mean. Its like standing in the middle of a head on collision.

        • Hi Dru,

          I can see by what I wrote, how it may have been interpreted as me saying that the blood of the Mother “mixes” with the blood of the child in the womb, but that was not what I was saying, (even though the topic being Haemoglobin) may have appeared that way. (I was a tad peeved at the time.)

          Though the nourishment is provided by the blood of the Mother, the placenta is composed of numerous blood vessels. These blood vessels are filled with fetal blood, while the placenta is rich in maternal blood. As these blood vessels carry fetal blood through the placenta, they come into contact with the mother’s blood, which transfers nutrients into and removes waste from the fetal blood through the walls of the blood vessels. However the separation of the blood is maintained by the blood vessels walls themselves.

          Any way’s that’s enough of the medical crap for this website. lol.


          • Actually Tom,

            Now that I have had more time to contemplate the topic of blood, you may be right in that Yeshua was composed of only God’s blood.
            So I apologize for my error there.

            However being born from a Jewish woman, His ethnicity would have been Jewish as a man here on Earth. And I stand with what I said regarding the Israelite’s above as well.

            In the future may I suggest that if someone happens to disagree with your theology, you accept that, and don’t simply question as to whether they are also filled with the same Spirit.


            • Dear Bro. Alienated – I’m not questioning your salvation dear brother.
              And I do not know you well enough to judge whether you have the Holy Spirit or not. I just love talking about the Word of God.
              I just preach and teach what I know God has given me. I know it is a hard pill to swallow for most. So I have got used to people rejecting it and judging me as a nut or heretic whatever.
              But I still got to stand on What God has given me. He told me to preach a NOW message.
              If I made you feel like you were not filled with the Spirit I beg your forgiveness. People can be wrong in the Word and still be right in the Heart. And I’m not saying you all wrong etc. I can say I was wrong for many, many years until I actually heard a Message that “Woke me up” The Heart is the most important to all. David was a pretty bad sinner but he had a Heart for God. I would rather have a “right spirit” with a wrong doctrine than to have a “right doctrine” with a “wrong spirit” amen.
              I just sent Bro. Dru more on the blood of God. If you want to read it. And if you do not agree with it all. I can still love you brother if you still be my brother. God bless you — Bro. tom

        • dru I am sorry to break your bubble but this is what happens when an rh – blood factor meets an rh + blood factor it can….the rhesus factor, my mother had all blue babies though today the blood transfusion is done before the birth of the child.
          Certain circumstances can cause them to mix, like miscarriage, abortion, and birth. This is when diseases can be transmitted, or problems with blood RH incompatibility can occur.
          Rh antibodies will recognize the Rh proteins on the surface of the baby’s blood cells as foreign, and pass into the baby’s bloodstream and attack those cells. This can lead to swelling and rupture of the baby’s RBCs. A baby’s blood count can get dangerously low when this condition, known as hemolytic or Rh disease of the newborn, occurs.

          • oh yes we were all rh positive and the first girl died because they did not transfuse the child, she was a blue baby. But normally the blood does not mix but all the nutrients comes through the mothers blood through the placenta. Curious. It is not possible really to discard Mary and make her a simple plastic bubble.

            • Sorry to bug you dru but if a woman takes drugs or alcohol or anything bad it does go through her bloodstream and through the placenta, in other words her body through her blood stream feeds the baby through the placenta. To be technical Mary was a part of Jesus as far as a nurturing woman could be and for how God created them to be which is why God did it that way, He created women’s body to build a child in the womb…quite a miracle really but to dissect to the point of saying He was not of Mary I think is a little male uh…no I won’t say it!

      • God bless you Dru –love rejoiceth in truth is in 1 Cor. 13:6 – The whole chapter is devoted to Gods Love and charity.
        David loved truth and said He hated every evil way. That does not mean he hated people just evil that perverts Gods people and their life. A lie is a perversion of truth. As adultery is a perversion of true love in a Marriage.
        Now the true “Elected” of God is very simple to see when we see the “Mark” in the Peoples “Character.”
        Cain and Abel were twin brothers but which one was the “Elected”. It was Abel not Cain amen. So here lie’s the reason. Abel had a revelation=FAITH – and Cain did not have it, cause he was just religious and thought a beautiful sacrifice was more pleasing to God that a Bloody Lamb. He leaned to his own understanding and not Revelation – a revealing of the WORD.
        Able knew it was the blood that would atone for sin only. This is how sin got into the lifeline of mankind through carnal knowledge. But how did Able know that. God gave him a REVEALING of it. But to Cain He did not. No doubt that Adam told them both how sin entered into mankind. One believed it and the other did not. But it takes the Word to produce a FAITH or REVEALING of TRUTH. HEB. 11:1-3 etc.
        Right here we have the very first congregation of bothers with different opinions. And it was Cain that received the Mark of the “wicked” one. 1 Jh. 3:12 – You can follow the “Mark of the Cain” “the Beastly character” all the way through the bible right into Book of Revelation 12 Chapter and on into Rev. 17-18.
        Cain had no conscience of sorrow or repentance toward God for what he had done. Cain wanted to Rule His Brother Gen. 4:7 So here is the very first war between mankind. Cain from the wicked one wanted to rule the other – you see he had a Nicolatian Spirit back then Rev. 2:6. He wanted the Lordship over the people. Cain was also a city builder very smart and cunning but lived for his own belly. Now you can put the belly together with the serpent.
        Jesus in the New Testament came to a Roman Centurion. That told Jesus JUST SPEAK THE WORD and my servant will be healed. Jesus “Marveled” at this man being a Gentile and said He had not seen that kind of faith in ALL of ISRAEL. SO WHO WAS THE REAL ISRAEL of GOD THE “ELECTED”. Cain and Able were they Jews. Noah was he a Jew. Abraham was he a Jew. The Israelite Nation that came out of Egypt most died in the wilderness because of No Faith – Yet a gentile harlot named Rahab was a believer — now who was the “Elected” .
        It is He that has FAITH = Revelation of GOD”S WILL and of God Himself. It was Jews and Gentiles that took the Gospel message into “TIME” and it will be the same today Jew and Gentile that will take the “Same Message” out of time and into Eternity. GAL. 6:16 THE ISRAEL OF GOD IS BOTH JEWISH AND GENTILE. GOD HAD A “NATION” BUT ALSO HAD A “PEOPLE” for HIS NAME. Always has been. AT THE SAME TIME PETER WAS TAKING THE GOSPLE TO JEW. APOSTLE PAUL WAS PREACHING THE GOSPEL TO THE GENTILES . Same today as was then.
        There was not one man that could atone for the “fallen Race” because they all sinned and had fallen and that goes for women as well. The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil brought death upon all mankind. That is why no MANS blood could atone. It had to be SINLESS BLOOD from the START. Rev. 5: 2-4 tells us this very plainly.
        2. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
        3. AND NO MAN in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
        The book is the Book of Redemption – TY
        4. And I wept much, BECAUSE NO MAN WAS FOUND WORTHY to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
        5. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
        David was a great, great man but he was a sinner as well. HEB.6:13- For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, HE SWARE BY HIMSELF. That’s why it had to be Gods blood.
        Was GOD a JEW before he made the World. Is the HOLY SPIRIT JEWISH. Jesus was raised in a Jewish step family. He was trained in the Law because HE FULLFILLED it in everyway to the dot. He never said Mary was His Mother that I can recall. He called her Woman. Cause she replaced Eve the woman. Mary believed the “Spoken Word of GOD” and said let it be so. Every subject in the bible will mostly always cover the whole bible. That’s how we know its truth. It all dovetails together.
        Lord bless you Dru and your whole family – Shalom – bro. tom

        • Tom,
          A quick question for you, did not the descendents of Cain die in the flood? Or were they preserved somehow?

  24. To Deb – I’m with you sister – We must do as Jesus did – Emptied Himself out all the way to hear the Truth from the Father =Spirit . We must empty all our thoughts and ideas and imaginations out to be able to recieve the Truth.
    Love rejoices in the Truth. In this hour as the world has advanced so much in its wisdom. The Bride of Christ should be advancing as well to be able to confront the master minds of Satans dominions.
    I watched in sadness the other day – to see a leading lady on the great TBN bow down to the Eygytian Pope and call him Your Holiness. Makes me sick for them. Did Peter let people bow down to him NO. Why cannot people see clearly whats going on in the church is beyond me. If you just read the bible you ought to be able to see it.
    Satan is already in Gods Temple – And he is very decieving.
    Every denomination is built on one or two true revelations. Then they go no further. If we took the time to search out the little truths of each denomination. Then you would have the complete revelation of the 7 Sealed book. Not just one aspect of it. If you want to be decieved just go with the multitudes with their beautiful buildings and perfessional speakers. Professional singers etc.
    I remember once with I listened to one of the greatest sermons on Love I every heard. I ran and took notes on it. Then at the end of his sermon. He said you can go to Jesus or Mary for forgiveness. Its that bad today.
    God bless those that will hear what the Spirit saith unto the churchs in this decaying Laodicean age.
    Bro. York

    • Tom
      You are beautifully heading in the right direction. “Love rejoices in the Truth” This is a profound statement, worthy of quotation. Is this your own? Or did you read it somewhere?

      God IS Love
      Rejoice, John 16:22 After Jesus death came Joy not sorrow
      Truth= the Spirit of Truth, revealing and fulfilling our joy.

      Hence your statement is a mirror of the triune God, and How he has revealed himself to us, Humans, and his plan of redemption. The Law is God’s love revealed, Jesus is the Joy of redemption revealed, and Spirit Is…Truth. (Yet to have his full revelation.) I could go on, but in five words you have summed up God’s revelations to us. I hope I am not the only one to see this, because it is truly amazing.
      God bless

  25. The “serpent seed” went over with Noah – It was Ham – If you look at Ham’s life and ancestor’s they were all Evil. The mark is invisble and it is spiritual just like today. But war always follows Cains seed. Always trying to stamp out the Elect of God. Did not Jesus say to the Pharisee’s etc. you are of your father the devil. amen there you have it.
    The Kenites were of Cains blood line. But after so many years its all mixed in with the world. Look up the word Kenites and you see it plainly tells you they were Cain’s bloodline.
    But that is what God is doing now – He is calling out all His chosen vessels. There are only 2 bloodlines – Matt. 13 plainly tells us that Christ went out sowing good Seed – yet a dark figure followed him sowing his seed of tares. Hope this helps you and Lord bless you – Bro. York

    • Tom
      the reason why I ask this, is because this notion has led to racism everywhere it is preached, which I am not accusing you of. When Jesus brought the Gospel, it was to the “world”, and to “whosoever” believes in him. There is no racial element in these words, they are all inclusive. Yes there are tares being sown, and their are goats among the flock, But as you say, the mark of cain is not visible. My question is, is their redemption for the descendents of Cain, assuming the seed survived the flood?

      I see the descendents of Lamech as being three groups, the nomads, the gypsies and the scientists, the latter of which are in a dominant role. Jabal=nomads, dwelling in tents, with livestock. Jubal=Gypsies, those who play the flute and lyre, Known for their musical skill. Tubal-cain=scientists, forgers of Iron and bronze. Remember, they cannot work the ground for survival. There was also a sister Laamah, which nothing is told about, yet she is mentioned in the account, which I can theorize as to her role, but will not. Assuming they survived the flood, then is there redemption for them? Or are they doomed to die?

      In other words, Is there no hope of redemption for those who are born with the seed of Cain? This does not seem in keeping with the Gospel, as preached by Christ.

  26. Yea Sister – it is so close you can feel it and think you can touch it. Like a lamb in tall weeds with a lion about 50 feet away ready to attach. The little lamb is shaking some, looking all around cause he senses danger but cannot see it. Thats the worlds condition today. And it seems the church is not shaking because they think everything is out in the future somewhere and something has to happen before the end can come. This is why the Lord told me to preach and NOW message not one for some future event but now. If only Israel could have had a NOW revelation they would not of missed their Messiah. It just wasnt what they thought. To unusal to say the least. Shalom – Bro. Tom

    • They had John the Baptist and the prophets and so do we. We are different though. we have Christ and the Holy Spirit and two thousand years of fulfilled prophecies and Israel a witness that God has drawn them back to their ancient homeland as He said He would so long ago. We have less excuse I think Tom.

  27. Dear Dru – Gen 4:7 also says to Cain – If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
    Yea Cain could have got right with God – But he let the Serpent=the Flesh rule over his spirit man.
    And Yes Jesus died for the World. But God being God knows the beginning from the End cause He is Alpha and Omega. He also knew who would come to Him for salvation and who would not.
    Just a Jesus knew Judas had a devil and was gonna betray him – He also knew that Esau would sell out his soul for a good meal etc. etc.
    If God does not know the Beginning from the End then He would not be God. Cause God knows everything, and He was the one that made the “Plan of Salvation” from the beginning. If God does not know the beginning and end of Mankind then how could we put faith in Him.
    He does not make anybody go to hell – they send their self there and He being God knew that from the get go.
    God is not a Respecter of Persons the Bible says. God is not a racist. But He did know the ones that would be His Sons and that is who He died for.
    But ALL had the chance amen. The world was called but God knew they all would not come in.
    God did not Create Evil – But He did create man with a Free Will to chose. Evil was created by and through the free will of mankind. God does not want robots – He wants man and woman to serve Him freely by Love. Who would want a wife or husband that did not love them for who they were. Amen –
    Now we know Cain’s seed survived the flood. Cause Nimrod = means rebellion. And were great builders of civilizations. Were the first to organize and build a great army to protect the people from wild animals etc. When Nimrod died his Mother or wife one deified him as a god and herself as the Mother of God – Babel is where all Paganism came from. And as God said they would become as one of us deities but they would be evil deities – evil gods As I showed you all in the meanings of God pluralities. There are evil gods indeed. Please Read Gen. 11:1-9 – The left off building the city which was suppose to be and means Gate to God.
    So with that said is their a city today that is Pagan to the core and has a “god” and a “mother” worshipped. It’s even called the “Eternal City” what a blasphemy to Christ name. Vicar means “instead of God“.
    When the Vicar the Pope signs his name they all sign the same signature which is Dux Cleri I believe and it adds up to 666. So every time any Pope has signed his name to a piece of paper it is 666. So much more could be said. The book 2 Babylon’s was a best seller years ago and I read it. Still remember some of it.
    Rev. 17 and 18 also calls this religious system Mystery Babylon. Cain’s line never did change much. Great builders, organized the 1st. Army to take money from the peasants and it got worse and worse etc. etc.
    Cain wanted to rule – was a great builder of cities, his kin where great inventors as well in metal etc. music as you said. Well just read Rev. 17-18 you will find it all right there. And it says Rev. 18:13 they possessed slaves and souls of men.
    Cain’s line is mention as the Kenites after the flood. Just look that up and there are a couple meanings to the Kenites. But one is for sure Cain’s line.
    I will leave you with this to ponder on – The Roman’s were one Pentecostal real Believers. But they got popular with Imperial Rome. Soon great men came there and it got worldly, they brought off with the Christians a couple different times until they ended up the Catholic church – which means Universal church. And the Dark Ages set in for the poor common people again that loved Jesus Christ. In their own ‘Book of Martyrs’” records that belong to the Catholic church – it says they Killed 68 million people in their Quest for dominance to RULE — Sounds like a Cain Spirit to me. But they had a free will to not do it as well. Hope this helps you Dru. Lord bless you all. And thanks for the Question I sure get into it – so good to know that there are people still interested in the Bible and Church History and really want to know the Mysteries of God. It is for all who will listen and pray and have a open mind and do not shut God out. Bro. tom

  28. Hi Marie Jean,

    I just popped in for a bit to see what has been happening, and I read your posts.
    Thank you so much for your kind comments, and for actually reading some of the rather lengthy posts of mine comprised of my studies.
    I am currently working on a reply for Dru and his premise, that I hope to post later tomorrow. But thought that you may perhaps find this particular study interesting as well. I apologize in advance for its length.

    Initially I believed that the Ten Virgin parable consisted of only believers in Yeshua, now however, I am wondering due to its placement being directly after my study of Matthew 24, whether it could possibly refer to that of Israel being the foolish, and that of believers being the wise?
    I would appreciate hearing your feedback.

    The Ten Virgins.

    Parables, as defined by Merriam-Webster are, “specifically: usually a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.” I would like to add, that when included in biblical scripture that parables also serve to reveal a specific and mysterious truth.

    They are not unique to being utilized only within the New Testament, but have instead been utilized many times throughout the fullness of scripture, from possibly the very first scripture ever written, that being the Book of Enoch, throughout the Tanakh, (or Old Testament).

    I would first like you to have an understanding of what the actual Jewish cultural aspects are, to what we would refer to today as the engagement period and subsequent marriage ceremony. You may find that some of the definitions of the Hebrew to be rather intriguing, in that they can be also attributed to having a spiritual application. As well, it is interesting to note that a time period of (7) seven days, or one week is put aside to celebrate the wedding itself. Could this possibly coincide with what is written within Daniel 9:27?

    The Engagement and Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin;

    Within the traditional Jewish culture, the process of marriage occurs within two distinct stages: The stage of kiddushin (which we would commonly refer to as the engagement period) and nisuin (which would define the act of the marriage ceremony itself). In the past, it wasn’t uncommon at all, for the time period between the two, to be separated by an extended length of time. Many times it would be up to a year apart. The kiddushin takes effect when the woman would accept a proposal that was offered by the prospective husband.

    The word “kiddushin” comes from the root “Qof-Dalet-Shin”. This Hebrew root word has within its meaning, two very significant aspects. One of its meanings would be “sanctified”, where the other would be being “set aside for a specific, sacred purpose”. Therefore kiddushin not only expresses the sanctity of this engagement period, but also that this woman has now been set aside specifically to be the wife of only one man in particular.

    The engagement period that we are familiar with today in our society, is far more relaxed than kiddushin. Our engagement period now, can be called off, or annulled for any number of reasons.

    However when kiddushin had been accepted, the relationship could only be cancelled by either death, or divorce. Though the marriage, (or nisuin) itself hadn’t yet taken place, the woman was considered to be the legal wife of the man. This information should then help us to understand Matthew 1:18-20., just a little bit better.

    However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete. During the wedding ceremony itself (7) seven special blessings are read. This is called Sheva B’rachot, (The Seven Blessings.)

    The nisuin (from a word meaning “elevation”) completes the process of marriage. “The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.”

    In contrast to a non-Jewish custom, in which the bride and groom take off to some exotic honeymoon location, “Jewish custom dictates that the couple begin their new life together in the Husbands community.”

    For “seven consecutive evenings” following the wedding, it is customary that friends or relatives host festive meals in their honor. The act of feasting recalls the “seven-day celebration” after the marriage of Jacob to Leah, while spending their days in prayer, learning Torah and performing mitzvos in order to give the “new house in Israel” a solid foundation in God’s ways of holiness, (Genesis 29;27). This also confirms what Yeshua said in John 14:1-3.

    During this “seven-day celebration”, and the tradition to throw dinner parties for the new couple each night during the week following the wedding. At the end of each of these meals, after Birkat Hamazon (Grace After Meals), Sheva B’rachot are also recited. In fact, these meals themselves are popularly referred to as Sheva B’rachot after the special wedding blessings recited at their end.

    Why Ten Virgins?

    The number 10 was not just an arbitrary figure that Yeshua, (Jesus) happened to pull out of the blue either.

    But it appears to be a significant number Biblically. Within the King James the Hebrew “עשר”, transliterated as “’eser”, (Strong’s 6235) has been translated into the English “ten” a total of 172 times.

    Some examples would be;

    – God would spare the city for 10 righteous. (Genesis 18:32)

    – 10 camels were loaded with gifts for Rebekah. (Genesis 24:10)

    – Rebekah stayed 10 days before leaving. (Genesis 24:55)

    – Joseph had 10 brothers that went to Egypt to buy corn. (Genesis 42:3)

    – The Tabernacle had 10 curtains. (Exodus 26:1)

    – God gave Moses the 10 Commandments. (Deuteronomy 4:13)

    – Boaz had 10 witnesses at his marriage to Ruth. (Ruth 4:2)

    – Solomon had 10 lavers for water made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:6)

    – Solomon also had 10 golden candlesticks made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:7)

    – Solomon also had 10 tables made as well. (2 Chronicles 4:8)

    Then there are also the 10 days of Awe that fall between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and the 10 lost tribes.

    Jewish tradition also believes that there are only ten true Songs in the history of the world. These true Songs are not mere melodies, but they are expressions of the harmony of creation and mark monumental transitions in history.

    Interestingly in Jewish tradition, the Tenth Song has not yet been sung yet: it is the Song of the coming of the Mashiach, which will be sung at the End of Days (see Isaiah 26:1).

    As well, there is the “Minyan” the quorum necessary to recite certain prayers, consisting of ten adult Jewish men required to establish a synagogue.

    Vines Complete Expository Dictionary says that the number “ten”, the Greek “δέκα”, transliterated as “deka”, (Strong’s 1176) has been used a total of 248 times, and that its definition consists of, “the measure of human responsibility”, and is also the number of “completion”.

    The above is simply to verify, that apparently with God, the number 10 holds significant meaning, and it was not simply an arbitrary number.

    The Parable itself.

    Scriptural references have been written that do more than imply that, “Spirit filled believers”, are indeed the “bride” of Yeshua.

    These references can be found in the parable of Matthew 22:2-14., and verses, Luke 12:36., John 3:29., 2 Corinthians 11:2., Rev. 22:17., and can be substantiated in Rev. 19:7-9. where it is written that an actual “wedding ceremony” will take place in heaven. And this parable, in my opinion, is definitely a description of the choosing of “who” the partakers of that event will be.

    Since these verses also describe some form of distinction between these two particular groups of believers, of which some will be considered to be worthy to be His bride, whereas others apparently will not, (Just as a man would not simply marry a woman because she is a woman, or a woman wouldn’t simply marry a man because he is a man), therefore Yeshua, is looking for unique, or prerequisite attributes as well. The following is an effort in an attempt to understand, what those particular distinctions and attributes consist of, and who specifically it is that Yeshua was referring to within the parable itself. i.e.; Who are these two separate groups of five wise, and five foolish?

    But, before I explain in my opinion as to what those distinctions are, lets first look at the verses and see what “they” the Ten Virgins had in common.

    “1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.”

    (It is at this point here, that there is a break. It is in a sense a third conditional form. The previous narrative tells of all the virgins going forth with their lamps to meet the Bridegroom and that the wise of them, took oil in the vessels of their lamps, as opposed to the foolish that did not. The following verses describe in more detail as to what took place prior to this happening, and if read in context, the foolish not only did not have “enough” oil, but also arrived late. This is implied and confirmed by the Greek word, “ὕστερος” being translated as “Afterward” in the beginning of verse 11)

    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for and you: but go rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” KJV.

    Before going further, I think that something very significant needs to be clarified first. That is the Greek definitions of the word “know” that Yeshua uses in verse 12. It is translated from the Greek word, “εἴδω”, transliterated as “eidō” (Strong’s # 1492) and its definition is exactly what you would think that it means. “Verily I say unto you, I do not “perceive with the eyes, perceive by any of My senses”, You.” (Emphasis and paraphrasing mine.)

    This would be a horribly devastating thing to hear from the Lord. That is why He said “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV.

    So what was it that these virgins had in common?

    (1) They were all Virgins.

    Fortunately I don’t believe that this is referring to our sexual experience at all.

    Though the English word “virgin” was translated from the Greek, “παρθένος” transliterated as “parthenos”, (Strong’s 3933) in which its definitions would indeed suggest that it may, I believe instead, that it has more to do with the condition of our hearts. In 2 Corinthians 11:2., Paul says the following,

    “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Here the word “chaste” is used as an adjective to describe a specific quality of the acceptable virgins. The English “chaste” is derived from the Greek “ἁγνός”, transliterated as “hagnos”, (Strong’s 53). The definition of chaste is as follows; “1) exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, 2) pure. a) pure from carnality, chaste, modest. b) pure from every fault, immaculate. c) clean.” I also don’t believe that the Etymology of “hagnos” is coincidental in that it is so closely associated with the Greek “ἅγιος”, transliterated as “hagios”, (Strong’s 40) which is defined as “a most holy thing, a saint” and has been translated into English within the King James as “holy” 161 times, and into “saint” a total of 61 times.

    Therefore I believe that it is reasonable to assume that Yeshua is rather referring to their/our purity of heart, or put another way, our desire to maintain Divine relationship. They were all believers. However, were they all chaste, and did they maintain their commitment to their bridegroom, not allowing for anything to deviate them from their faith?

    (2) They all had lamps.

    These would have been hand held lamps made out of pottery clay that someone could carry with them. The Hebrew transliteration would be “Niyr” and they would have had a wick (pishtah) as well as an area to contain the olive oil to burn. These lamps can be considered to be a symbolic reference to the Holy Spirit being indwelt within the believer. Ones light can only shine if the Holy Spirit, (or oil) is present and available to utilize. (See (3) below.)

    (3) They all had oil.

    This can be associated with the above point (2) and is a very significant point as well, for the “oil” is considered and has been established by most every biblical scholar of note, to represent the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

    See Exodus 29:7, 29:21. Exodus 30:25, 26, 31. Exodus 40:9, 1 Samuel 16:12, 13. 2 Kings 9:3. for just a few examples out of the numerous others included in the Tanakh. However, notice that in verse (3) it states that the foolish, “took no oil with them”, and in verse (8) that the foolish had run out of oil, and their lamps had gone out, “Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.”

    Though it is one of the shortest verses in the Bible, “Quench not the Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19), should be considered very carefully by all professing Christians. The light of a lamp can only burn with fire. “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Acts 2:3. “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” Matthew 3:11/ Luke 3:16.

    The word “quench” above that Paul utilizes in that verse, has been translated from the Greek “σβέννυμι”, transliterated as “sbennumi”, (Strong’s 4570), and its definitions are, “to extinguish, quench of fire, or things on fire, to be quenched, to go out. metaph. to quench, to suppress, “stifle of divine influence.”

    Therefore I believe, that it would not be unreasonable to say then, that though one may have the Holy Spirit residing in them, the state of his or her “fire” is determined by the willingness of the host or recipient, to surrendering to that of God’s will, rather than that of their own. One can chose having free will to be of good soil and “stoke” that fire, or quench it. God leaves that choice up to us.

    (4) All had been waiting.

    Since the “the bridegroom tarried” it would be logical to assume, that while they were waiting for His return, they all carried on with daily life. Just as in the days of Noah, they and we are, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”, before Noah escaped from the flood in the Ark.

    (5) All had slumbered and slept.

    The Greek “νυστάζω” transliterated as “nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “καθεύδω” transliterated as “katheudō”, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”.

    (6) They all heard the cry.

    Which in my opinion, the “cry” that is heard in verse (6) is referring to “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:” that is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and which is also referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:52. as well. I will go into further detail as to why I am of this opinion, within the chapter under the heading, “The Rapture”.

    (7) They all heard this call at midnight.

    The English word translated as “midnight” which is utilized (6) times within the New Testament has been translated as such, from either one of two Greek words. These would be “μεσονύκτιον” transliterated as “mesonuktion” (Strong’s 3317) which in its definition means simply “midnight” and is used within Mark 13:35., Luke 11:5., Acts 16:25., and 20:7.

    The other word is “νύξ” transliterated as “nyx” (Strong’s 3571) when conjoined with the Greek word “μέσος” transliterated as “mesos” (Strong’s 3319), and it is only translated as the word midnight twice. Once in the parable above, Matthew 25:6., and again in Acts 27:27., where Paul had the vision from the angel telling him that all aboard the ship “would be saved”. The definition for “nyx” is as follows; “night, (metaph. the time when work ceases, the time of death, the time for deeds of sin and shame, the time of moral stupidity and darkness, the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber.)”

    (8) They all made it to the Door.

    The five wise entered through it and went in with the Bridegroom to take their part in the marriage, where the five foolish upon arriving, found that the door was shut. There are many references made within scripture regarding the word “door”. Therefore, I suspect that many in the past, when studying this particular parable, because of its innocuousness, have simply chosen to disregard this particular word. However, I personally believe that to conduct proper hermeneutics, critical exegesis must be utilized.

    Therefore in doing so, I was rather intrigued in finding out what the word “door” revealed.

    Though in Greek there are many words that can be utilized to express unique and specific aspects or definitions, (as opposed to the limitations that the English language may provide), when it comes to the word door there is only one.

    The Greek word that is translated into English as the word door is the word “θύρα” transliterated as “thyra”, (Strong’s 2374). However, the significance of this word can be found within its definitions, which are as follows; “a door, the vestibule, used of any opening like a door, an entrance, way or passage into. “in a parable or metaphor, the door through which sheep go in and out, the name of him who brings salvation to those who follow his guidance, ” an open door” is used of the opportunity of doing something, the door of the kingdom of heaven (likened to a palace) denotes the conditions which must be complied with in order to be received into the kingdom of God.”

    What is interesting to note is where and when this “door” (thyra) appears in the book of Revelation. It is utilized only (3) times. These being Revelation 3:8., 3:20., and finally that of 4:1. This “door” that the wise virgins pass through within this particular parable, is not mentioned once after 4:1 within the rest of the entire book?

    (During the course of this study, the thought had occurred to me that perhaps the following scripture had duality of purpose and was also prophetic in nature, when God was speaking to Cain and said, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” Genesis 4:7a.) KJV.)

    Last but certainly not least, are the words “wise” and “foolish”.

    The Greek word “φρόνιμος”, transliterated as “phronimos”, (Strong’s 5429) was translated into English as the word “wise”. The definition of phronimos is as follows, “intelligent, wise, prudent. ie; mindful of ones interests.”
    Its word origin is derived form the Greek “φρήν”, transliterated as “phrēn”, (Strong’s 5424), and its definition is, “1) the midriff or diaphragm, “the parts of the heart”. 2) the mind. a) the faculty of perceiving and judging.” Or in other words the word wise itself, could be explained in this way, by utilizing the provided definitions, and in maintaining the context in which it is being used, “for one to make a conscious choice based upon the true desire of their heart, and through their knowledge regarding the truth of Yeshua as their Savior.”

    The English word “foolish” was derived from the Greek “μωρός”, transliterated as “mōros”, (Strong’s 3474) and its definitions are as follows, “1) foolish, 2) impious, godless.” It is suspected that “mōros” is derived from the Greek “μυστήριον”, transliterated as “mystērion”, (Strong’s 3466) where the definitions are quite in depth, and consist of the following, “1) a hidden thing, secret, mystery. a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals. b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding. a hidden purpose or counsel. 2) secret will, a) of men, b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly.”

    The first time that this particular word, “mystērion” is used within the New Testament, is when Yeshua answered His disciples question by saying in Matthew 13:11., “Because it is given unto you to “know” the “mysteries” of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

    Above I have also placed the word “know” within quotations, (for as students of the Word, we understand that everything that is contained within scripture, is intimately interconnected). The English word “know” in this instance, must be understood, for it is relevant to the process of understanding “the mysteries” within the context of the narrative. The word “know” here in this instance, is the same word that Yeshua utilizes within the above parable, which again was translated from the Greek “γινώσκω”, transliterated as “ginōskō”, (Strong’s 1097 ) and it definitions are, “1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. a) to become known. 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. a) to understand. b) to know.”

    Therefore in utilizing this information, “foolish” itself could perhaps be defined as being in the state of indifference. Since knowledge is only provided by the Spirit of truth, they unfortunately have a lack of sincere desire to participate within that relationship, and are therefore, ignorant and not fully aware of the significance of gift that they have been blessed with. Consequently then, neither do they possess the knowledge of the mysteries, or the possible consequences of their choice. Perhaps if we apply what we have learned above regarding the “kiddushin” in respects to the engagement period, in that the “kiddushin” could only be cancelled by either “death”, or “divorce”, perhaps this “indifference”, this “quenching of the Spirit” fulfills both of those requirements?

    • That was quite a pop in and you left almost no stone unturned .. except the kingdom of heavan.. not earth and of course is the kingdom He has been gathering since the fall of Adam and Eve and their our reclamation and the oil they did not take with them gives light to the wick, ourselves lit by the Holy Spirit ..oil. I have a lamp which we used as children in our log house that when empty of oil is nothing but a lamp and a wick and is of no use. So the oil is as much a part of lighting the comparison as all the other parts or actually more because the lack of it caused them to be late. But they never bothered to take any with them and that neglect was noted immediately. Our neglect of the Lord and the cares of this world taking over our hearts and lives so when He calls us to the Banquet is effected by keeping the lamp burning and that requires the fellowship oil to keep it burning. I have had many sorrows and terrible tragedies in my life and have found that the depths of sorrow were so severe that I could not discern momentarily whether it was raining but it was tears. It was in those depths of tragedy that I found Him so close and discovered His depths of love and understanding of mankind. My desperation of needing Him drove me to cry out and let Him embrace me. I found later when the answers to prayer came and He had given us a time of rest or ‘bower by the roadside’ as C S Lewis points out in the Voyage of the DawnTreader is a danger to fall asleep, not wake up and so miss the marriage feast when the bower was only meant for rest. That is just one of the times that there is a tendancy to forget the fellowship and there are many things in life that do make us forget and go on to other things. Strangely I loved the fellowship in that terrible valley of sorrow and loss because it is always the closest I am to Him, but I would not go back to the pain and loss either because it was terrible. But I thank the Lord He is the good Shepherd His rod and staff comfort me and He uses that rod to waken me from slumber. I suspect alienated that these things are also a warning of the importance of keeping the extra oil with us as much as the door or way being Jesus as Bunyan notes in Pilgrims Progress that the only way in is through the cross …Saviour. The road is narrow but it is sure.

      • Hi Marie Jean,

        It was a quick “pop” in. It just takes a a couple of seconds to copy and paste it from my manuscript.

        I was though, looking for your opinion as to whether you believe the parable is referring specifically to two groups of believers, or whether it is possibly representative to that of Israel and believers instead?

        Thanks for taking the time to read it though.



        • april 6 alienated actually I the parable is about the Kingdom of Heavan and He compares it or likens it to ten virgins which to me is quite a different thing. The fact is that five prepare themselves to wait bringing extra oil to keep their lamps burning and five do not and must run off for their lights are gone off and while waiting the Lord comes to admit the ones ready.

          When I think of the Kingdom of Heavan I think of an incredible Universe without suffering, beautiful and full of the Lords’ Glory and many Creations I have not seen, with love shared as if it were running water and where fear and sadness are dispelled we are ever in His Presence. But the Lord gives an entirely different scenario doesn’t He? The Kingdom of Heavan is like what? ahhh now that is the question do you not think?

  29. Marie jean – After reading a few of the comments this morning. And getting into all the aspects of a natural birth. Remember you talking about fallen man and woman. I just got one question for you.
    Jesus Christ was the 2nd. Adam — A supernatural Birth. When it comes to recieving a birth – Recieving Gods Spirit in you. there is no difference between male and female. All you NEED IS GOD.
    I also wrote more on this part 2 to Dru. As for me I’m over with this issue. God absolutely does not need the help from anyone to create a man or woman. You can eat from the Tree of knowledge or eat of the Tree of Life thats up to you.
    All Life form of the NEW CREATION came from the BLOOD of Christ – Its “Spoken Word” – Thy Blood crys out God said. Jesus was a Male. He died for His Bride – other words took upon himself our sin. That is exactly what Adam did. He was not decieved – He loved Eve and partook of the tree because of the LOVE FOR HIS BRIDE.
    The truth always dove tail together. As the Woman came out of the side of Adam – So did the Bride come out of the side of Jesus – Every blood cell etc. was His children being born . My name and yours was on one of those blood cells and we raised up in our time when we heard are name called. God bless – Bro. tom – The New Creation is GOD ALONE PERIOD

    • Tom York, It is the Lord that created Adam from the earth and later when the Lord found life too lonely for Adam the Lord caused a sleep to fall upon Adam and created Eve from his rib. They were made whole and in the image of God and perfect as He created them not babies. The scripture is plain about how they were created and Adam even named the animals which meant he had the ability of speech before Eve was even created

      Adam by the way should have known better having Been Fathered and Mothered by the Lord before Eve was created and He should have taken responsibility for stopping her or at least not partaking of what he knew to be wrong. Is he typical of many men? Well let’s see. The First person Adam blamed was His Creator, His Father. ‘The woman YOU GAVE TO BE WITH ME, she gave to me and I did eat.” He makes the response immediately just look at what YOU gave me, this woman who told me to sin, eat, and I ate poor me. He barely acknowledges what he did.

      Love or blame? Fact is the woman spoke correctly, ‘The serpant beguiled me and I did eat? The blame is correct. The Lords response was the rebuke of Satan immediately for tempting His innocent Creation at its beginning. Then He passes correction and judgement with hope to Eve.

      Now to Adam He returns to speak to him and it is noticeable that God nips in the bud the heart of what Adam had done, “Because you hearkened to the voice of your wife, which ” I COMMANDED YOU SAYING YOU SHALL NOT EAT OF IT”

      Irregardless of what Eve had said or done, it was still Adams’ greater responsibility TO OBEY his Father and Creator first, and to set an example. When people are tempted to sin as God said to Cain Sin is at the door. Temptation is at the door, it is always each their own responsibility to choose good or evil, right or wrong.

      It was NOT a case of Adams great love made him do it. It is the most absurd excuse for sin I have ever heard. People on this earth have died at coercian because their conscience will only do what they know to be right or true. For someone who literally walked with God who was His Father and Mother, Adam had no more excuse than we do. It is plain bosh to say anything else and just another easy and sloppy way of saying when you sin it is someone elses fault. My great love for the other person made me sin! Not on your life is it so! He was not a little baby or child who was forced or coerced into disobeying Gods Commandment to him just as Eve had no excuse but she spoke more honestly than did Adam.

  30. Marie Jean,
    This is in response to your comment above that Jesus fulfilled the feast requirements. Do not get me wrong I am not saying that he did not (Hebrews 9 is pretty clear about that). Many here, however, believe that he will fulfill the requirements for the fall feasts (Trumpets, atonement, booths) during his second advent. The Booths being the 7 day wedding of the bridegroom and bride. In the Letter to the church In Smyrna, You have the Ten days of Awe, reflected in the ten days of tribulation (testing), With the “one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death”. Most people emphasize that we are to be like the church of philadelphia, but ignore the fact that the church of Smyrna is also right. These in my opinion are the two churches, or two groups that we are discussing.
    When I say that Jesus did not fulfill the day of atonement at the cross, I am saying that its fulfillment has not been revealed yet. The fullness thereof. Your comments on Jubilee and the day of atonement seem to back this up, which is why I sent you here. Which is why Jubilee has never been celebrated.
    What I am saying is that we as servants of the Lord, will play arole in that revelation, via the Holy Spirit in us. Some of us who are of the church of Smyrna will be Put to death for our testimony, after facing ten days of tribulation. Read Leviticus 16 again, especially verses 16 onward. Ask yourself has this been fulfilled yet? Can we enter the prescence of the Lord yet? Has our temple been fully cleansed? Now read Hebrews 9:28.

    I Know I am alone on this. This is an election, by alottment. At the same time I know that I am not alone. Knowing the history of the Martyrs of our faith, who have preserved the gospel over time.

    Look at the three ages and revelations of God, one is yet to be fulfilled. Then we will enter his resting place. You cannot force yourself into election, but are chosen by God. It does not make others, The overcomers in the church, any less important. They just were not chosen by Lot, as it fell on some by God’s choice. But do not say that those who face this martydom are less than those who might be raprtured or rescued from this tribulation either. Remember this is not about salvation, but about election, from the flock. Some will be among the royal priesthood, others will rule with him as his bride. All are servants of the Lord.

    I personally have glimsed the prescense of the Lord, and let me tell you, we are not there yet. You will find this description on the “purity of perception” page in my comments. I did not ask for this revelation, but he gave it to me, which lasted seconds only. The Peace and Joy I felt in seconds was enough to convince me to eagerly “wait for and Hasten the coming of the day of the Lord” (2 Peter 3:12) When the fullness of his creation is completed, and his rest has begun. I do not fully understand his revelation, as to put it into words yet, but soon the Spirit will decipher it for me as he has done here.
    God bless

    • Hi Dru,

      Okay first, starting from your post of April 3rd. at 6:04 am, 2:00 am your time. (Zzzzzzz.)

      I see 2 Peter 1:1., as defined through the definitions of the original Greek, to be accurately translated as it has be written within the King James.

      “Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:”

      Though the transliterated word “lagchanō” that was translated into the English, “to them that have obtained” here, (to receive by divine allotment), is in itself a curious choice of words, the adjective “ἰσότιμος”, transliterated “isotimos”, (Strong’s 2472), translated into, “like precious”, (defined as equally honored, and precious) is in context, referring to that of the feminine noun “faith”.

      Therefore in my opinion, the transliterated pronoun “hēmin”, translated as, “with us”, would then be referring to Peter himself, (and the rest of the apostles), as being “fellow servants”, of Yeshua, (as stated within the beginning of the text) who also have obtained or received this faith.

      So with that, I would agree with the latter of your two proposals above.
      However, that does not necessarily mean that I then draw the same conclusions that you have in respects to being equated to the “elect” of Matthew 24.

      Firstly there are no Gentile or Jew within the Assembly. They are together a “new creation”. Ethnicity is irrelevant, and Spirit takes precedent. (1 Cor. 6:17.)
      So to answer your question regarding Peter, “Yes” he was/is an apostle, and “Yes” ethnically he was a Jew, but “spiritually”, he was/is a “new creation”, and in that respect completely different than that of those not “born of the Spirit”.

      Now, I suspect that you would agree that God has made specific Covenants with that of Israel which are yet to come to fruition and be fulfilled.
      If you agree with that, then you would also agree that these Covenants are different than what the Covenants concerning the “new creation” consist of as well. This would then mean that there is a distinction between people, those that are born of the Spirit and follow Yeshua, and those that aren’t and don’t, though they happen to serve the same God.

      Most of these unfulfilled prophecies regarding Israel as a nation will occur during end times.
      Just a few of these would be from Moses in Deuteronomy 30:3-5., though in the process of being fulfilled it still isn’t in its entirety, for it would also include Messianic redemption. And Isaiah 2:4., will not be fulfilled until Yeshua returns, (the same topic that is discussed within Matthew 24).

      Above within your post of March 31st. 4:35 am. you say in your second paragraph, “But if this is the case, then you are not in the context of verse 24, where these elect are being tried to be led astray by false Christ’s? These verses clearly put the elect in the “tribulation of those days”, and sometime after the abomination of desolation (verse 15).”

      “Well that is exactly my point, and what I’ve been saying!”
      The first two instances where the word “elect” is used are referring to the same group of people, post “abomination of desolation” where the “tribulation” has commenced. Christians today simply identify with the word, “elect”, and because of that, (some), believe that they as well will be subjected to the Tribulation. They simply forget all about God’s redemptive plan for Israel.

      Take Zechariah 13:8-9., for example, where up to 2/3 of Israel will be killed, during the tribulation, (fleeing being expressed in Matthew 24), though through God’s grace, He does leave a remnant to be saved, (which is also described within Revelation 12).

      8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die ; but the third shall be left therein.
      9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined , and will try them as gold is tried : they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say , It is my people: and they shall say , The LORD is my God.

      The very same thing is expressed within Isaiah 48, with the chapter starting off with the exclamation, “Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness:” And in verse 10 God himself says in respects to the ethnic nation of Israel, “Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.”

      These verses are specifically referring to the nation of Israel and not that of the Assembly! We are “Jew’s of Israel spiritually”, and the ethnic nation of Israel, (which is still God’s chosen/elect people), are still blind to their Messiah. (Romans 11:8.) And Israel will be tried and refined through the fire of the tribulation!

      On the other hand, Yeshua’s Assembly has been purchased, (1 Cor. 6:20.) forgiven, (1 John 2:12.), is without condemnation, (Rom. 8:1) and cleansed of all unrighteousness, (1 John 1:9), and are refined, (or sanctified) through the Spirit and Yeshua Himself. (Rom. 15:16. and Hebrews 10:10.)

      And I couldn’t be more certain in my heart, that Matthew 24:24, (and Mark 13:22) should not consist of plurality, and that it was and is an incorrect translation.
      For after the “abomination of desolation” there is nothing within Revelation that suggests multiples that could possibly deceive a people, other than specifically that of the two beasts and of satan. (Or satan, and a false messiah, and a false prophet.)

      Seriously, doesn’t the following not only make more sense, but line up as well with other scripture, as to what will occur after the “abomination of desolation” and within the “tribulation” itself ?

      “For there shall arise “a false Christ” and “a false prophet” and shall show great signs and wonders; in so much that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.”

      Doesn’t this line up with;
      8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (2 Thessalonians 2:8,9.)


      12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed .
      13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
      14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. (Revelation 13:12-14.)

      I suggest to all that may be reading this that haven’t read either books of Esdras, to at least read 2 Esdras 13, for all three instances of “who” the word “elect” within Matthew 24 is referring to, are identified within that chapter, as well as their relation to Revelation 12.

      Dru, everything that you have written here, is for the most part, to be understood as being supportive to your theory that “The Bride will be specifically left behind to be subjected to the tribulation.” Correct?

      Well though you are welcome to believe what you believe, (and I do understand based upon scripture, (the shared suffering, and Martyrdom etc. verses), as to how you arrived at this particular premise), I respectively disagree with it. However, why I disagree, is only because I believe that you have taken what is a correct premise, but have applied it to the wrong group of people.

      Please consider the following;

      The Tanakh itself is full of foreshadowing, and much of what is historically presented within its contents, are cyclical in nature, and repeat themselves.
      With that in mind, “What does the very first Pesach, (Passover) signify?
      Well other than the obvious in which we know that “the blood of the lamb” is representative to that of Yeshua, it should also be obvious that a “deliverance” took place, and that those that followed Yeshua, (the Shekhinah pillar of cloud and fire, being Yeshua Himself, 1 Corinthians 10:4.) were freed from the oppression of Pharaohs bondage. Yeshua therefore is equated with deliverance. First and foremost the deliverance of sin. Secondly the deliverance from the law. However, this was also a physical deliverance as well.

      There are those that clearly do not believe in a rapture. There are those that believe in one, yet consider it to take place sometime within the middle, or the end of the tribulation itself. Then there are those that believe that Yeshua will “deliver” those that follow Him with a true and pure heart prior to the,”revealing of the man of sin, the son of perdition”, and the commencement of the tribulation. (You are aware as to which camp I belong to in that regard.)
      So why do I have this particular belief, and can I back it up with evidence from scripture?
      Well first, above I made a particular statement, which I will copy and place a portion of it again here, and add a little more to it.

      Yeshua’s pure of heart Assembly has been purchased, (1 Corinthians 6:20.), forgiven, (1 John 2:12.), is without condemnation, (Romans 8:1) and cleansed of all unrighteousness, (1 John 1:9), and are refined, (or sanctified) through the Spirit and Yeshua Himself. (Rom. 15:16. and Hebrews 10:10.) They/we are also the children of God, and brethren of Yeshua, (Galatians 3:26., and Hebrews 2:11) as well as One Body, (1 Corinthians 6:15.). Those that are truly Yeshua’s in heart and Spirit have been washed, have been sanctified, and are justified through Yeshua, and the Spirit of God the Father, (1 Corinthians 6:11.) They/we are loved, (Galatians 2:20.), and are Yeshua’s chaste bride, (2 Corinthians 11:2.)

      Now in taking the above into consideration, what purpose would it serve for God to allow the above “loved children” to suffer through satan’s oppression?
      What purpose would it serve for God to allow the above “loved children” to suffer through His wrath? For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;, (Romans 1:18.), the complete opposite of the above people. (Romans 5:9 and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. and 5:9.) Scripture is full of evidence that God’s wrath is specifically for the “sons of disobedience” and not that of the Assembly.

      I believe that Yeshua is the Anointed One, God’s right hand, and therefore His Emissary, and that He performs all aspects of God the Fathers will and desire in being the One that disperses and administers His wrath, (Romans 13:14. and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.). This position of being the Godhead’s Emissary is described throughout all of scripture, from the creation of everything as the capacity of Word, to being the fulfillment of the Godhead’s Salvation, and to being the One to administer God’s wrath. He is also the Godhead’s Emissary during the Millennial reign, during the final battle, (Gog and Magog), where it is only during that final battle, that Yeshua will then submit Himself to the Godhead, (1 Corinthians 15:28.), and God Himself will deliver the final blow, (Revelation 20:9). Then the Great White Throne judgment takes place, and after its completion God will be all in all.

      My point regarding the above, is twofold, (1) Being the Godhead’s Emissary, the seven sealed scroll, is a portion of God’s wrath. They as well as everything else that Yeshua does during this time as God’s Emissary, all fall under the category of, “The Day of the Lord”, (1 Corinthians 1:8.). (2) Yeshua is certainly not going to pour it out on His brethren and that of His own Body, and bride.

      (Within Luke 21:7. the disciples ask basically the same question of the Lord Yeshua, as is asked within Matthew 24, “Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?”
      From that point forward the narrative is virtually identical, with a couple of exceptions which provide further information. One of these being verse 22, “For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
      The word translated into vengeance above is derived from the Greek “ἐκδίκησις” transliterated as “ekdikēsis” (Strong’s 1557) its definition being “a revenging, vengeance, or punishment”. Since it is Yeshua that will be opening the 1st. seal, and that Yeshua in essence is God, (His Emissary), and that He is correlating the Tribulation as the time of punishment or vengeance, it seems illogical and lacking foundation to make any distinction whatsoever between the Tribulation and that of God’s wrath.)

      You are aware that both Don and I have expressed numerous things to consider that are posted on the “Rapture and the Church of Philadelphia” post, so I won’t bore you with all of them here. However here is one that is a less common scriptural reference to support a Pre-Tribulation rapture, that you may not have heard.

      ”The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” (2 Peter 2:9.)

      The context here is regarding Noah and Lot, as both being considered to be righteous, and therefore being delivered out of the destruction of the ungodly.
      The Greek word that was translated into the English “how to deliver” is “ῥύομαι”, (a verb) transliterated as “rhyomai”, (Strong’s 4506).
      It is defined as, “(1) to draw to one’s self, to rescue, to deliver. (2) the deliverer.” The English translated as “temptations” is from the Greek, “πειρασμός”, a masculine noun, transliterated as “peirasmos”, (Strong’s 3986). its definitions are lengthy, however its primary definition is that of “trial”.
      It is the very same word that John utilized in recording what Yeshua had said within Revelation 3:10.

      “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of “temptation”, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

      The Lord’s Prayer itself say’s, deliver, (rhyomai) us from evil.
      And if you believe that when the “son of perdition” is revealed, there will indeed be all sorts of evil in the world during the tribulation period, then how could God allow for the above described children of His to participate within it?

      So, as I had stated above, “I believe that you have taken what is a correct premise, but have applied it to the wrong group of people.”
      So who should the suffering and martyrdom that you currently see as being be applied to the Assembly, be actually applied to then?

      Go to the “Rapture and the Church of Philadelphia” post heading, and scroll down from the top, (by counting the Gravatar’s because that makes it much easier), to the (72nd.) post that I made on June 5th. 2011, (which starts off with the words, “Hi All, What do you think of this?”), and read it and the following (2) posts, (1) that I made on that same day, and (1) that I made on December 19th. 2011, directly under those 2. For I believe that they may reveal as to “who” this suffering and Martyrdom actually applies to.

      In respects to the Jewish Feasts that you mention above within your reply to Marie Jean.

      Yom Teru’ah, or the Feast of Trumpets that occurs on the 1st. of Tishri, (our September, or October), is the day that the High Priest blows the Shofar in which the last of the blows, is referred to as, “the last trumpet”, (1 Corinthians 15:52.), and within Jewish tradition the day has a fourfold meaning;
      (1) New Years Day.
      (2) The day of remembrance.
      (3) The day of judgment.
      (4) The day of blowing the Shofar.

      On this day Isaiah 60-61 is read in the Synagogues to teach the lesson, that eventually the Lord will be revealed as King and be accepted as the ruler of the world.

      Yom Kippur, or the Day of Atonement that occurs on the 10th. of Tishri, is the the day;
      (1) Aaron, the High Priest, made atonement for Israel.
      (2) On October, 1973 Israel was saved from annihilation when the Arabs overran their defenses in the Yom Kippur War.
      (3) The possible date when Israel will mourn as they see their Messiah whom they have pierced.

      However this day is not relevant to the Assembly whatsoever, for we have been exonerated of the need of atonement, through the blood of Yeshua. Therefore the day is still applicable to that of the unbelieving nation of Israel itself.

      Sukkot, or the Feast of Tabernacles that occurs on the 15th. of Tishri, is the day instituted by God at the end of the fruit harvest (Sept -Oct). Jewish men were required to attend the feast in Jerusalem. During this 7 day feast the people are to live in booths made of branches to remember their brethren made to live in booths in the wilderness for 40 years (Lev 23:33-34, 42-43). On each day they are to sacrifice 14 lambs without blemish (Num. 29:15, 32).
      On this day;
      (1) Tishri 15, 1005 BC the dedication of Solomon’s Temple (2 Chron. 5:2-3, 1 Kings 8:1-2).
      (2) Yeshua was born, plus or minus on Tishri 15. (John 1:14.)
      (3) Yeshua’s Millennium Rule begins on this day Tishri 15 (Zech. 14).

      During Yeshua’s Millennial reign, all the nations of the earth will be required to come to Jerusalem and worship Him and celebrate The Feast of Tabernacles (Zech. 14:16-21). Those that do not will be punished by Him by stopping the rain. Sukkot will be celebrated by all men because it will be in remembrance of the Day of His return, (His Second Coming where He actually returns to the Earth, rather than the Assembly meeting Him in the clouds), where He delivers all men from another terrible holocaust of the Tribulation, and from God’s wrath.
      On this day Zechariah 14:1-21 is read in all Synagogues because it promises Israel’s final Messianic deliverance from persecution and the beginning of the prophesied kingdom.

      Shalom & Be Blessed.


    • Jubilee was celebrated Dru and this may change your ideas substantially I think because your theories are based on your premise it was not.

      The 50th year of Jubilee was celebrated in Israel in 1998. I remember it quite clearly. We were very excited for Israel and the fullfillment of Israel restored to her lands, a nation again and 50 years old! It was the first in a few thousand years and maybe a bit. Nevertheless it took place whether you knew about it or wish to acknowledge it. This is an interesting site in that it shows how Pentacostals and Charismatics still pretend it did not occur because it did not happen for Christians the way they wanted or expected or imagined it would. This I think is a huge problem today still when Christians imagine many ideas not based in fact and history. It creates a slack Laodicean people more than Christians want to admit.

      And further this is a Jewish Perspective:
      This month marks the dual observances of the Festival of Passover on April 14th as well as the 50th year since the founding of the modern State of Israel on April 30th. You may have heard this year’s 50th anniversary described as a Jubilee year. In Scripture, every 50th year in Israel was to be set apart in a radical way. (See page 3.)

      What do Passover and the Year of Jubilee have in common? Passover is the Festival of Redemption. The very concept of redemption means to buy back. God redeemed, or bought back His people from slavery in Egypt. In this He demonstrated that the people of Israel are His treasured possession.

      • Sorry, the first sentence should read:

        Jubilee was celebrated Dru and this may change your ideas substantially I think because your theories are based on your premise that was not.

      • Marie jean.
        Can the Jubilee be properly be celebrated without the lost tribes there to possess their land? What I am saying, is that the jubilee is on God’s schedule, not man’s. So yes they celebrated in 1998, to marked the 50th anniversery of the refounding, But they still do not posess the full land of the Abrahamic covenent, nor are all twelve tribes there to be numbered. When they have the land to the Euphrates river, and the brook in Egypt is when it will be celebrated, or shortly thereafter, according to God’s direction. This is not my plan, this is God’s plan. I am neither a pentecostal or a charismatic, This not based on any denominational thinking but on the Word of God.
        I left a comment for Alienated on the “seven Spirits of God” Page, which is my exit from the stage, I have a brief moment or two here to respond to your comment, and a few others, I pray the Spirit will guide you to understand where I am coming from. God bless. And Yes Israel is the “treasured possesion” spoken of in Malachi, but we are grafted into that tree, and so long as we produce fruit, we are part of Israel, and serve the Lord as well. For under the new covenent there is neither jew or gentile, slave nor free,… we are one, Perfectly one.

        • How trivial dru and that when Israel has not been a nation for 2000 years. Israel missed the Messiah coming the first time and I have no doubt many Christians will miss His coming the second time. I am shocked to hear you call their Jubillee an anniversary. For Shame! They celebrated their FIRST Jubilee in thousands of years and that is what they called it and if you pass it off as an aniversary because it did not occur your way, you do a dangerous thing for it is the Lord that brought it all to pass and not man. He gathered them from the four corners of the earth and who is to say what tribes are gathered from so far, so many over two thousand years? But, one thing I know is that we who saw and prayed toward that year in 1997 were and are as excited when Israel declared it the year of Jubilee for the returned nation of Israel.

          I do understand very well where you and hundreds of thousands of Christians are coming from. You are wrong about the grafted branch, for the Lord says take care when you are grafted in that you do not become high minded and some may not produce fruit and are usually cut off when useless. The fruit by the way that a grafted branch produces may be of a different color and taste of the root and tree. They are usually not the same. So a Macintosh and a Spartan (both red apples) may be grafted onto a hardy Green Granny Smith. They will always produce what they each are so the Mac and Spartan will never produce Green Granny Smith nor will the Granny Smith ever produce the two reds. They will always only produce their own types and yet the grafted will obtain its succour, nutrients and life from the root and tree always. Curious comparison don’t you think and no amount of doctrines will ever change those facts that we are compared to this very art of Grafting of frut trees etc. We that are gentiles are not Jews and yet we are the second witness and of a different kind but the natures are of course similar, say we are all of the same type of fruit but not the same fruit for we retain our separate characters and it is no accident that the Lord always uses parables to teach these truths because the simplest folk can and do understand His teachings by the very Nature of His Creation.

          • Marie Jean,
            May I ask what church you belong to, seeing as you seem to have it all figured out? That has been the whole purpose the Lord sent me here, to confront the pride of the church. My message has been consistent with that. No one person can know God, Just has no one church holds to 100% correct doctrine. I dare not say that I am right, but will defend my views till proven wrong. This is why God spread his Spirit among seven churches. Because he knew Man’s pride would keep them separate. Each claiming theirs was the “only way”, But it is Jesus that is the Only Way, the Truth, and the Life. Unless he builds the church, we build it in vain. (Psalm 127:1) We Christians who are servents of the Lord, are no different than Jews who are servents of the Lord, We all serve and submit to the same God, Yes we were grafted in, and yes we produce different fruit, and Yes He has a different timeline of events for Christians and Jews, But we will be one in the future, Under his authority. Serving the same God, Worshipping in the same temple, celebrating the same feasts, In submissive service to him. He appoints the feasts, not man. we merely obey. So if you want to believe that 1998 is the year of Jubilee, then who am I to judge. The Lord will be the judge of that. Just as he will Judge me if I am wrong that it is not his intended year.

            It took nearly a year to have alienated see the immensity of God, And I am not going to take the time with you. He was a tough nut to crack, as I told him on the other page. Yet I love him as a brother, and he in fact corrected me at times, and it brought a fuller understanding of God to me. Humility is understanding that we know nothing in comparison to God. Read Job again, and you will see. It is Only when we submit to him, that he reveals himself to us. I do not care how educated, or how much authority in the church one has, unless we come to him as a little child, we will not enter his Kingdom. As you said with regard to parables above. Can you admit that you may be wrong? or are you so high minded? That is my point, not that you are wrong. As I have said to many on this site, It is not about me being right, it is about US getting it right. Meaning man/Women is not an island, Just as the church is not a building, It is only when the Seven Spirits of God work together, that some semblence of truth is revealed.

            I am not here to create followers to my doctrines, But rather to lead people to serve God. I am not a theologian, nor am I pastor. I am a nobody, whom the Lord chose to use for his purposes. I am losing my house, my business has been struggling at best, I have a wife who does not love me, and rightfully so, I am an overeducated carpenter, with a degree that is only good for being president?, and Have little or nothing to lose. I am the least among you, and have asked for nothing but that people listen to what he has given me to say.
            I have little or nothing left in this world, and if he so chooses I will give what little I have left to do his will. This world is not my home. It is in his arms that I long to be. I know Him, but I do not know him fully, and never will. I have learned to accept the curveballs thrown at me, with the Joy of knowing that I am his. That with each trial he reveals more of his love towards me. He has sanctified me and tested me in the fire.
            I say all this not for sympathy, but to prove to you that there is nothing High minded in what I am saying, Only that it is from the Lord himself. I deserve none of this, and I asked for none of this, I only obeyed his calling. When your time comes, will you obey his calling as Isaiah who said “here am I, send me”? Or will you give a theological argument as to why this could not be? Or If he should tell you when he intends for the Jubilee to be celebrated, will you say that Can’t be because man celebrated it in 1998? Man, and this world can only provide relativism and preference, only with God can one find certainty and truth.
            God bless, and goodbye. Look to the cross and you will see his calling.

            I often speak without thinking, so forgive me if my words have offended you in any way. It is not my intent.

            • Dru,

              I take offence to one of your comments above.

              You have no idea as to the depth of my relationship with God, Or how Immense I may perceive Him to be. Though I will fully admit that what He consists of, is far beyond that of my limited comprehension. As well, I have never been, nor will I ever be “your” nut to crack.

              • I am sorry.
                It was not meant to offend.
                I admire your steadfastness, my goal was to get you to understand that others, who are full of the spirit can contribute to our understanding of God, that It is not a one man show, or a one building church. It is the debate within the debate that you still do not see, but will later. I was not questioning your understanding of God or in anyway saying you have no depth of relationship. in fact you are much farther along than I could ever be. As I said on the other page, others, you in particular esteem him more than I have. I am only touching the surface, while you know him on a deeper level. For nearly 20 years, I did not know him, I lived for myself, and not for him, You have been doing so for many years. I am just beginning to grasp the basics. You can take what i said above as an insult, or as high praise, depending on how YOU look at it. The nut that was cracked, was for you to take seriously those who are beneath you. That a valid point can be revealed to anyone who is a Christian, not just the schollarly. That the teacher can be taught by the pupil as well, and that the relationship benefits mutually. You are that teacher now.

                Obviously, You can resist that and see it as a blow to your ego, as your last response indicated, or you can see it as high praise and foster its growth. If you think I am claiming some sort of victory, I am not. the only victory I see is yours. That is if you read a little deeper into what i have said, which you are good at.

                To put it another way, Do you really think that God wants an homogenous body?

                I will leave you with that puzzle, seeing as you like solving them, someday we will laugh together at all this, all the while praising God.
                God bless, Good night, farewell, signing out.

                BTW, I am not apologizing for the compliment I paid you, but am apologising because the way your looking at it, it seems like an insult to your credibility. Which it is not!

                • Dru,

                  Your apology, (though not an apology), is accepted.

                  It was the way that I had perceived what you wrote as being that, “it took “you” for me to see the full immensity of God, and that I was some sort of pet project of yours.”

                  Dru, please don’t berate yourself. Though I can only speak for myself, I believe that many of us have taken the same path that you have in the past, (that of the prodigal son), before coming, (through His mercy and incredible patience), to a place of sincere and heartfelt surrender.
                  I don’t believe that God looks at us, His children, with eye’s that would discern any one of us to be more righteous than another. For it is only because of Yeshua Himself, that we have any righteousness at all.

                  What I attempt to do here on this site, is simply express, what is my opinion, as to what I believe that the Word of God is saying.
                  I am not a teacher, nor do I wish to have that responsibility, for though I do have the Spirit, (as do you and others here), I am still human and therefore can make mistakes. (I was in the process of writing a book, but my fear in propagating possible falsehoods, caused me to put it on hold until I was to receive some sort of comfort from above regarding it.) So far it is still up on the shelf?

                  I am aware that at any given time, the Father can speak through any of His children, and I have witnessed that fact here quite a few times on this site.
                  Any way’s, it is my turn to apologize to you now, for taking what you had written in the wrong way. Though it wasn’t because of ego, or pride…. but probably more of my own insecurity. If you really knew me better, (than other than just here on this site), I think that you would probably understand that.
                  I am really, nothing at all. The only substance of any worth that I happen to possess, is what we all share within our hearts.

                  Catch ya on the flip side. I hear that the Mana Juice is quite tasty.
                  God Bless,

            • Dru You said:

              “So if you want to believe that 1998 is the year of Jubilee, then who
              am I to judge. The Lord will be the judge of that. Just as he will Judge me if I am wrong that it is not his intended year.”

              Not for a moment do I believe there are accidents with the Lord. I have read books from the time that Israel became a nation in 1948
              that described the reactions of many, many Christians in that year before and after 1948 who were angry, disgusted or adamantly declaring that Israel becoming a Nation was wrong. It should not have happened! This was not Gods will or time.

              Now you Dru declare that the Celebration of the Year of Jubilee, the Nation of Israel should not have celebrated, because it was not the intended year and ‘if I want to believe that 1998 is the year of Jubilee” which has absolutely nothing to do with what I want or don’t want or what you want for that matter, is entirely up to either you and me to believe???

              I know I am new here and like a church when you walk into and no one wants to talk to you until you have been there 20 years, it may seem like I should wait 20 years to discuss anything with the adults here or maybe this is a closed forum?? This may be the anger you appear to be expressing over a fact of history revealed to you as if I was using it as a weapon to attack you..I do not know what this is about but the simple fact it took place was not a choice of mine or yours that a doctrine can dictate.

              It is too late. It did take place. Just like all the angry and disgusted Christians who were disgusted that Israel declared itself a Nation…Israel became a Nation in one day. The birth was phenomenal and by most of Christendom or nations of Christian descent they also rejected her and its’ happening or their deciding not to acknowledge what she did or what happened effects what God did or is doing and even though they have been trying to iliminate her ever since it cannot possibly be a mistake. It is all written in history now no matter whose doctrines and petty ideas were disrupted by it.

              A mistake Dru? I know it was not. The first year of Jubilee for Israel restored after 2300 years being trodden under foot of the gentiles as Daniel declared, a mistake or maybe just a belief? Not on anyones life is that so. It is just another fact of History Dru that many like yourself choose to ignore because they don’t fit in to their preconceived ideas of how it should happen or like Christ how He should have arrived with an army the first time. I don’t understand the presented anger or pretense of attack by me when everyone here I perceive simply discuss and wish to learn, but, to not want to learn or hear facts of history or to discard them as attacks or vanity, as the nations have discarded Israels’ right to exist or to even decide their year of Jubilee or their Sabbath or anything else pertaining to the Bible is I must admit always a very strange thing to me.

              Yes this may dissappear too but, that is ok. There are other forums of discussion etc. I just think that this is completely unecessary. I don’t feel anger or anything like it. I only wonder why this type of thing is so prevalent in Christianity.

  31. alienated,
    Thank you, that was a wonderful response. I will process it and comment further tonight or tomorrow on a different page, and hopefully wrap up this debate as well as others. I admire your steadfastness, and resolve. Did you happen to look up the word “choreo”? That is all I ask of you when I make the response.
    God bless

  32. Marie jean –
    #1. YOU SAID – Adam was typical of many men?
    All Adam did was tell the truth as well. The woman gave to me and “I did eat”. That is true. Adam did not lie and God never rebuked him.
    And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the Woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. She just like Adam passed it on.
    She could not go back to Adam and blame him. Cause he was telling the truth. Duh!
    It was the Woman that listened to the very first Sermon that Satan the serpent ever preached and she fell for it. She knew the Word of God but she got SEDUCED by her OWN DESIRE for the tree the “serpent said” would make her wise.= Oh yea now are we seeing something here. It was pleasant to the EYES – We talking LUST now.
    I JOHN 2:16 – For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. IT WAS THE WOMAN – The BY-PRODUCT of MAN like it or not that was deceived.
    She could be deceived because she was not in the ORIGINAL CREATION. Adam was “NOT DECIEVED” being a REAL SON OF GOD in the Original 1st. Creation. But he could sin if he wanted to just as Christ had the same temptations. I know that hurts you. But the bible says so.
    Isn’t it strange how people today are so smooth, in changing the meanings of the WORD OF GOD. And SHE THE WOMAN by letting herself be seduced by the Serpent actually gave birth to a SERPENT SEED. = The Human Spirit and Fleshy carnal mind is the SERPENT – Its called reasoning, seeking knowledge and experience against God.
    Gen. 3:15 – And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed.
    #2.YOU SAID – Adam by the way should have known better having Been Fathered and Mothered by the Lord before Eve was created and He should have TAKEN THE RESPONSIBILITY for stopping her or at least not partaking of what he knew to be wrong.
    You should know better than that – Can Jesus stop you from sinning if your heart and mind is “made up“ to sin. Adam did take the Responsibility and partook of the tree of death to save her. Just LIKE JESUS did. But in this case it brought the fall of all mankind. And it took the 2nd. Adam to deliver her and man from Sin.
    Because Adam like Christ did LOVE HIS BRIDE That GOD GAVE HIM. Eve was a perfect Bride for Adam and Adam was a Perfect husband for her but both fell into fornication because of Eve the only human vessel at that time that could be deceived.
    Adam was not deceived yea he knew exactly what he was doing as well. He wanted Eve as bad as Eve wanted him and was willing to die for her. No greater love hath a man.
    When Christ 2nd. Adam arose he first met Mary the harlot in the Garden Praise God and a fallen Women became as Pure as Eve was at the start. The 2nd. Adam forgiving His Bride. But he also had to partake of the tree of death to do that. But remember no man was worthy it had to be God himself this time. God hid behind flesh. The Flesh made Word. All Man yet All God – a quickening spirit from heaven that had not Mother or Father. HEB.7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Can you except that – God putting on Flesh – Before God became a Father. He was the great ETERNAL – Pillar of Fire – Then the great Eternal created heavenly angels to worship him making Him Father God. I hope you can see that. Its pretty deep
    #3. YOU SAID – Adam was typical of many men?– Well let’s see about that. GOD types out the Church as a woman more than a man.
    What does Apostle Paul say about it. I imagine he knew more than we do right. Can we agree with that. Lets see what the “Man of God” that wrote about 1/3 of the New Testament says.
    1 TIM. 2:13-14- For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED, but the WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN THE TRANSGRESSION
    II COR 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the SERPENT BEGUILED EVE through his SUBTILITY, so YOUR MINDS should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. Note here – serpent, is subtility, in the Mind – God in simplicity not carnal knowledge.
    #4. YOU SAID – Fact is the woman spoke correctly – DUH!!! – Well so did Adam as well.
    #5. NOW YOU GOT THE ORDASITY to say this about Adam. Irregardless of what Eve had said or done, it was still Adams’ greater responsibility TO OBEY his Father and Creator first, and to set an example.
    Well duh! The woman’s example and responsibility to God is just as important. You are suppose to be as one remember. Women are blessed with sacred motherhood and trust. You are a carrier of Life. Look at the women today. Carry on just as bad as any man born. We are all animals without God. Even worse. At least most animals would die for their off springs. Millions of abortions mostly attributed to women’s rights today.
    Now your saying a Man has more responsibility pleasing God that a woman does. In a way I agree with you cause we suppose to be the Head of the family. But if the woman goes out and gets seduced I guess that’s ok her husband should have kept her from it – after all he was a bad husband. Hello that’s reality in the world today . Come on in. I’m justified being unfaithful etc. etc.
    The 1st. ADAM excepted the same penalty for sin as did the 2nd. Adam Jesus Christ – He DIED and TOOK HIMSELF INTO DEATH TO SAVE HER. Jesus came to Earth knowing right from Wrong – So did Adam – But the BY-PRODUCT according to Apostle Paul was the Transgressor. NOT ADAM. I’m going with Apostle Paul a Vindicated Prophet, Apostle
    You fit in real good with the anti-feminist move in the modern church of today. Its all anti-christ. Your very first post about me you wanted to call me a “male chauvinist” – yea I caught that. Real easy to tell what you wanted to say. But I do not hold that against you cause you cannot help it. You have been breeded in with the Worlds thinking.
    So under the circumstance I just couldn’t stop you from wanting to call me a male chauvinist. Well it must be my fault then for just being a Godly man.

    Laodicea – Peoples right, Justice for the people. Yea Unions want justice, Women want justice, Racist want justice, Men want justice, Criminals want justice, Homosexuals want justice, Killers want justice, Kids want justice, we are Justified for our hate, and unforgivness, justified in making war like Cain. That is justice. on and on and on. Its all Anti-christ in the world and most Christians are looking for the anti-christ. Help us all dear Jesus to see ourselves dear Lord. As only you can show a person their self. IF YOU ARE DECIEVED TODAY YOU DO NOT KNOW IT OR YOU WOULD NOT BE DECIEVED. Seek God with all you heart, Body, and Soul = passions and draw nigh to him and He will deliver you. Bro. tom

    • First of all Tom the conversation was in response to the idea that Poor faithful Adam disobeying God because Eve made him do it and his great love for her made him do it. Good Grief! When I spoke about Adam it was about his nature that comes down through the ages to us all. To not acknowledge or recognize the facts that Adam was created first and was with the Lord, we do not know how long, but, it was long enough to have speech with His Father as well as naming the creatures brought before him to do so and to learn to work in the gardens. He was taught, I am sure, everything before the Lord said after his naming the animals ‘ It is not meet that man should be alone’ so a partner was made for him out of his rib. Adam was made of the earth and Eve was made of his rib. I am not ashamed to notice that Adam had the greater responsibility to correct and say no to Eve and if Eve had eaten first he should never have eaten second and no where in scripture does it say he took and ate because of his great love for Eve. That is plain bosh. He knowingly disobeyed God because he did, he disobeyed Gods’ command not to eat of the one tree and not because the woman God made to be with him told him to do it and that is the nature typical of mankind. Everyone wants to blame others for their sins and this is wrong. When someone is abused they are innocent and most often the abusers blame the victims for making them do it and they have even created an idea that victims are responsible for letting them do it. Fact is when someone sins they sin their sin and not because of a great love they say have for the person they are beating or sinning against etc. I called no one a chauvinist but when the ideas that are transferred to scripture do not exist and are done in this case to excuse Adam it is just wrong and this nature is in all mankind today, men and women. The murder of the unborn are as indictable to the men who made the babies and do not take responsibility for their sins as the women who commits the murder. I see no difference except where men do take responsibility and change if they can the outcome.

      The fact that Adam should even mention ‘this woman you gave to be with me’ is an absurd thought that should not have come into the response to the Lords question ‘ What have you done’ to Adam. It did and it came before he mentions Eve telling him to do so. You gave this woman to me, she told me to do it so I did. Not once did Adam say I know you told me not to eat of this fruit but I did. Your ideas are young it would seem and your response as if someone hit you over the head with feminism which has absolutely nothing to do with my response to yours about this scripture, but, it is your business if you take this personal, but the observation about the actual scripture remains true. Adam disobeyed God because he chose sin and not obedience and his blame of the two who loved him is obvious. I saw no protective quality in his love of either His Father or Eve, I only see the blame game in Adams response. It was not a conscious attack on men but the sin of mankind which has always been so prevalent whether by leaders, nations, businesses and men and women and often seen in children amongst each other. When the Bible uses the term of men etc in the bible or when we speak of it we often mean mankind. This is the case. Adam just happened to be the first created to have responded as he did and hundreds of millions have followed his example. Of this there is no doubt and blaming feminism on giving any other response is an interesting way of daring anyone to consider the actual scripture otherwise than what you say. I have no desire to do anything but try to bring the light of the truth on scripture and not on mankinds ideas of their additions to it. The truth of scripture remains always the most important thing in life and the facts. Gods Word is always the truth.

    • For Tom York the scriptures you required:

      The Temptation and Fall of Man
      Genesis 3
      3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

      2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

      4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

      8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

      9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

      10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

      11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

      12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

      13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

      The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

      14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

      “Because you have done this,
      You are cursed more than all cattle,
      And more than every beast of the field;
      On your belly you shall go,
      And you shall eat dust
      All the days of your life.
      15 And I will put enmity
      Between you and the woman,
      And between your seed and her Seed;
      He shall bruise your head,
      And you shall bruise His heel.”

      16 To the woman He said:

      “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
      In pain you shall bring forth children;
      Your desire shall be for your husband,
      And he shall rule over you.”

      17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

      “Cursed is the ground for your sake;
      In toil you shall eat of it
      All the days of your life.
      18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
      And you shall eat the herb of the field.
      19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
      Till you return to the ground,
      For out of it you were taken;
      For dust you are,
      And to dust you shall return.”

      20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

      21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

      22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

  33. CAUGHT UP” – HARPAZO – 1 Thes 4:17
    The term “caught up” depicts a forceful event. The Greek word is “harpazo” and conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised (Vines) and is used to describe a powerful release of God’s energy. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and did not know whether in or out of his body; but he had access to the spiritual realm and heard words which could not be expressed in human language. Paul did not necessarily physically leave this world. Philip was also mightily moved on by the Spirit of the Lord and was caught away from one place to another but did not leave the earth. Noah also changed from one age to another yet by water. It seems Ezekiel also had a similar experience. Each received a powerful intervention of God’s power which released them from the normal restrictions of this dimension, although they remained in it (2 Cor 12:2-4, Acts 8:39, Ezk 8:3,1:24).
    The use of the same word by the Lord reveals its meaning to us. He said that the Kingdom of God suffers “harpazo” by men of force (Matt 11:12). This is a difficult scripture but the NIV says, “the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay hold of it.” Men enter into it by the harpazo power of God. It conveys the idea of pressing into and possessing the Kingdom (Luke 16:16). Every time Christ did a miracle he reached into a future age, the Kingdom age, took hold of it and released its power into the present situation. Through “harpazo” believers were able to take hold of and enter into the Kingdom. They were not taken out of the world, but rather experienced the power of God coming into them to change their lives and situation. The harpazo is the forceful dynamics of God to catch up something into his power.
    Paul used it to describe a future release of God’s power into believers to clothe them in the life of Christ. The “harpazo” is the dynamic power of God to catch believers out of their fallen condition of corruption and transform them into the risen life of Christ. It does not mean a catching out of the world but out of a state, that of carnality and weakness, into that of spiritual power. In his resurrection Christ exhibited a new dimension of being, an order beyond the physical. The harpazo is to be released from the restrictions of this present mortality and to be caught into the freedom of Christ’s life at the time of his return.
    Maybe just maybe Christ has already returned. Just a thought stimulatory ( Bro. Tom )

  34. “IN THE AIR”
    If the clouds at Christ’s return are not weather clouds but the spiritual clouds of God’s presence and glory, then obviously the term “in the air” must also convey a spiritual phenomenon. Paul did not mean that believers will go up to the clouds in the atmosphere but that believers will enter into the presence or realm of Christ’s power and glory.
    The word “air” is used in the New Testament for both natural air and the realm of spiritual powers. In the book of Revelation it is used in the context of angelic activity, and in Ephesians 2:2 it describes the realm and work of “the prince of the power of the air.” This power is over a spiritual dimension rather than the natural air and its weather patterns. Paul linked the realm of the air with the “heavenly places” or heavenly realms and described how spiritual battle takes place in this realm. The realm of the air is also the realm over which Christ has ultimate rule. Christ has been raised to heavenly places and the church is seated with him there. This dimension will be opened for believers (Eph 1:20, 2:6, 3:10, 6:12).
    The word “air” is used together with the word wind, which also denotes both natural and spiritual realities (Eph 2:2). In the New Testament the word “wind” almost always conveys the meaning of “spirit” and, in the same way, when the apostle Paul spoke of “air” he was certainly not referring to what we breathe, made of nitrogen and oxygen, but was referring to an invisible spiritual dimension. Air is the nearest Paul could get to describe this invisible realm. Just as air is real but invisible, so Paul used it to describe the very real but invisible realm which is very close to us. It is the spirit dimension which is not far off, just invisible, right here “in the air.” Paul did not mean that believers were to be caught up to the atmosphere but that believers would have access to that spirit dimension. Believers will be caught out of their present condition which is subject to mortality and into a spiritual condition subject to immortality. The “air” is the spirit realm that Christ rules over and which will be opened for believers. At his “parousia” believers are not going up into the weather clouds but are going into the “presence” of Christ at his return. The invisible kingdom of the air (NIV), is in the air all around us and believers will have access to it. Immortality will be released into God’s people.

    Lord bless you all – Bro. tom

  35. I would have to agree with you Marianna- Love is the greatest of all. Getting in the spirit, giving your body to be burned, knowing all mysteries. And having all faith — comes from a Loving relationship – And any great marriage would be the same way. You have faith in each other, You know the mystery of your mates character, You would die for one another etc. And there would be joy, peace, goodness, gentleness etc. etc. in the homes today. Yes Indeedy – Love is the Key to opening up Gods heart to us. He said come to me with all Your Heart – He will recieve us. Bro. tom

  36. Amen Camel – God bless you — I sure agree with all of that. bro. tom

  37. Hi Dru, (Dave).

    I hope that you find this, if and when you “pop” back in.

    Marianne was kind enough to forward your email.
    Thank you for your compliments.

    I will rest in the Spirit regarding what you have to say. It will not be simply dismissed.
    There very well may be a component of your premise that will come into play, though as I have stated above, I currently believe that you have associated it to the wrong group of players. However I will consider the possibility.

    You and I have come a long way together here, haven’t we? I am glad that through it all, we have come to this place of peace together.
    Maybe we both are going “nuts” together too?🙂 But at least we are both nuts for the Lord.

    My prayers are with you Dave, and may Yeshua continue to guide you.
    Again, see ya on the flip side.


  38. Marie Jean – You know I would explain it to another way but I really do not think you would except that either. But here is the bottom line – I gave you Scriptures to read that shows the Woman was in the Transgression. And others with it. I always try and prove my stand by Scriptures backing it up.
    On your post back to me there was not ONE SCRIPTURE posted.
    Just alot of logic, and reasoning. So yea I still absolutely believe what I said was the truth. And You do not. Well thats alright.
    You know in your mind and heart what you was thinking. And God does to. You must not have read all my post cause I explained it pretty good I thought. The natural types the Spiritual – The 2nd. Adam died for HIS BRIDE just like the 1st. Adam did. This is scripture – JOHN 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Adam laid his life down for his bride. You gave me a whole bunch of logic. Im giving you another scripture again. And explaing the Revelation behind the mystery not just a thought, or Idea, of my own. Spiritual eyes of Faith sees the unseen. Natural eyes cannot go into that dimension.
    So to me its alright. You do not have to agree with me at all. Maybe I’m wrong. But you have not convinced me that I am. So I got to stay with Revelation by Scripture not my logic, and reasoning. Have a great day.

    • For Tom York the scriptures you required:

      The Temptation and Fall of Man
      Genesis 3
      3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

      2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

      4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

      6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

      8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

      9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

      10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

      11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”

      12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

      13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

      The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

      14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

      “Because you have done this,
      You are cursed more than all cattle,
      And more than every beast of the field;
      On your belly you shall go,
      And you shall eat dust
      All the days of your life.
      15 And I will put enmity
      Between you and the woman,
      And between your seed and her Seed;
      He shall bruise your head,
      And you shall bruise His heel.”

      16 To the woman He said:

      “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
      In pain you shall bring forth children;
      Your desire shall be for your husband,
      And he shall rule over you.”

      17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

      “Cursed is the ground for your sake;
      In toil you shall eat of it
      All the days of your life.
      18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
      And you shall eat the herb of the field.
      19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
      Till you return to the ground,
      For out of it you were taken;
      For dust you are,
      And to dust you shall return.”

      20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

      21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

      22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

  39. like I said – You aint gonna receive it, thats why there is no more issue on this subject for us to discuss. And on one of you post to dru or somebody you was talking about me and said “I think he is a ‘ – then said I’m not gonna say it. Well you already said it. Just by you making a issue out of “many men are that way”. You did not Say many of Mankind is that way or many women are that way. But you mentioned the men or man.
    It’s all right though – I don’t hold nothing against you. Have a good day and keep going. Bro. tom

  40. Marie Jean,
    Your response to my comment was expected. Ask yourself this question though. What happens if EVERY year in the coming Millenium is a Jubillee year? That was my point, not that Israel was wrong, or you are wrong. Your pride saw my disagreement as an attack on you. Which it was only meant to share, But because you saw the Jubilee in 1998 as being the only Jubilee worth considering, You automatically condemned me. You are doing the same with Tom. I do not believe everything that Tom says, but I know he is full of the Holy Spirit, and there is TRUTH in what he says. He also brings in denominational issues from his upbringing that may not be true, as we all do. Do not condemn all of him, when what he brings is from the Spirit, and therefore from God. Let your Spirit and his interact. Then the Spirit of Truth will be revealed. It is only then that you will find the Gems of Truth as opposed to the fools gold.
    I in no way am trying to demean you, I am only trying to get you to look past your traditions, and receive the Spirit that is from God, and the revelations they will bring you. You have been stuck in a box, your church/traditions, which does not allow you to receive The Spirit of other people that do not fit in your box. Read my response to you above again, and see if you see this?
    God bless

    • Dru a jubilee is every 50 years for Israel not every year but if you wish to distort Israels History and scripture by using plucked out scriptures to verify such absurd lies in support of your theories that is one thing but I caution you do not blame anyone but the human spirit for doing so. To attribute the Holy Spirit as your guide in such distortions is not only wrong it is dangerous for both you and Tom. I have seen and heard many Christians and churches do it. I would not choose to use the avenue of the Holy Spirit for proof of doctrinal disputes and distortions of scriptures for anything especially in these awful accusations of wrong on Israels part for reestablishing their, THEIR, Jubilee. You hit the wrong stone with the wrong cudgel and here I leave you to it! Nothing makes that right! Shame! I do not take the blame for such audacity. This is just plain sad.

      Leviticus 25:8-12

      The Year of Jubilee

      8 ‘And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years. 9 Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land. 10 And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you; and each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you shall return to his family. 11 That fiftieth year shall be a Jubilee to you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of its own accord, nor gather the grapes of your untended vine. 12 For it is the Jubilee; it shall be holy to you; you shall eat its produce from the field.

      • Marie Jean,
        A warning and not an accusation: You are treading on dangerous ground, and are on the verge of committing the unpardonable sin. Read Mark 3:22-30. I am ceasing my debate for this reason. God bless.

  41. marie jean said- but I caution you do not blame anyone but the HUMAN SPIRIT for doing so. To attribute the Holy Spirit as your guide in such distortions is not only wrong it is dangerous for both you and Tom.
    Jean what do you think you using right now to explain your hurt feelings that people could doubt you. You are using your “Human Spirit” as a guide. How about using the Holy Spirit guide. Why you want to talk about me again for. I told you that you never changed my mind. And I never changed yours ok. Why cannot you except that. Now you say I am using the Holy Spirit as a guide in distortions. You never injured me on my stand. You did not prove that I was wrong. Come on

    JOHN 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT , and they are LIFE.
    Maybe you are not getting into the Spirit as you think you are. Your emails back to me have proven you do not recant on anything you said to me. I have stated my opinion by the Word which is the “GUIDE” and its Also SPIRIT and LIFE. Your opinions did not bring any Quickening to me. I repeat for the last time.
    I TIMOTHY 2:14-
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. What part of this scripture do you not understand.
    II CORINTHIANS 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. Is this scripture hard to understand. I do not have to ADD nothing to this – it speaks for itself.
    Now I know that Adam sinned as well. But Paul now is spliting the hair so to say on who was at fault. Noting a fact that it was still Eve that was beguiled by subtilty. Her mind was decieved. Not Adam’s – Eve was a By -product of the man – A woman under the law could not be circumcised. So Her salvation had to be by the husbands circumcision or GODS alone. For Ruth to come into fellowship with her kinsmen redeemer= Boaz which again is a type of “CHRIST”. That was to come. ALPHA MALE – I’m not trying to belittle women or nothing else Im just speaking the REVELATION of the Word of God under the Law and Grace. God is always referred to a MALE. But His attributes had feminine in it also. Like He is a Creator, also a Son of Man also a Son of God, also the Holy Spirit, Also the Word etc. etc. etc.
    You know I do not have nothing against you. You just let me have it though for some reason in your first post or so. And you won’t let it go now. But I am open to speak freely to anyone and you as well. Im on here trying to help people IF I CAN – I’m not YOUNG as you said – I guess meaning Im not Mature – But I am a seasoned Veteran with Experience’s good and bad – I’ve failed God many times but the older I get the more slow I try and act upon peoples hearts. And We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God – But now its late in the Day – The End is always upon us. I do my best to help brothers and or Sisters that want to see the other side of the Denominational watered down messages they preach. There is a “Message” of the Hour in every age. Yea every 50 years is a Jubilee but Dru was just trying to use that as an illustration “what if” – I think every 10 years a life as a human you change myself. But thats not scripture just a thought that my dear Daddy in law told me years ago. At 20 I did not think like 10 anymore – At 30 I did not think as 20 anymore on and on. If I have injured you in anyway. I will say Im sorry. But I am not never Sorry for telling somebody the Truth. I will never apolozige for a TRUE REVELATION. I love the Lord more than anything.

    But even then I always try and do it with a discent attitude. And yea its hard at times. Have a good week and stay out of trouble. Bro. tom

  42. Rom 5:12

  43. As the Church was never given the true Christ teachings pastors have nothing to share with anyone. You have to redeem your souls and become angels that fly divine and years before spiritual people become saints.

    This is what the LORD says—
    your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
    I am the LORD,
    the Maker of all things,
    who stretches out the heavens,
    who spreads out the earth by myself,
    25 who foils the signs of false prophets
    and makes fools of diviners,
    who overthrows the learning of the wise
    and turns it into nonsense,
    26 who carries out the words of his servants
    and fulfills the predictions of his messengers,

    Isaiah 44

    Why do you think that Benedict XVI is begging?

  44. Hello Eliakim – a believer after my own heart. Yea “those that fly” They have the whole panoramic picture of Salvation by Revelation in their heart.
    God said He was”HIGH and LIFTED” up and his train filled the Temple – He was the Great Jehovah Golden Eagle. Oh my . To get into God is the Whole Mystery in this age just like the 1st. coming. All these pre-conceived ideas etc. etc. Eagles gather together when there is “fresh manna” to eat not like a Vulture that gather with them that can eat anything dead. The Eagle not like other Birds=men – Fly way up into other dimentions that most birds cannot even come close to getting that high cause thier Bodies can not take the pressure Zone. They would blow up on the journey.
    Anyway will be waiting on more of your Posts – Hope you stay with it.
    God bless – Bro. Tom

    • So Tom,

      Eliakim is, “a believer after your own heart” eh?

      Eliakim is certifiable.
      She believes that she is the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, and her spouse that passed away, was the Archangel Michael.
      Click on her name to go to her site. Some interesting and whacked-out reading to be had there.

      Though she simply quoted scripture here this time, I would be careful in the future as to who you wish to define yourself as being the same as. lol.

      I’m leaving this site, and thought that I would just give you a heads–up.


  45. Yes……. I will miss many of you as well.

    You are in essence mishpachah, (family), and I do truly love many of you.

    There is a sense of sorrow within my heart regarding this decision, (though I don’t believe that the decision is entirely that of my own).

    I may very well return at sometime in the future? I leave that solely up to the Spirit.

    Nevertheless, we will indeed see each other, down the road on that joyful day.

    So until then,

    May our Lord Yeshua HaMashiach bless you all with faith in Him, and provide you the strength to be overcomers of world.

    ‘Ahabah & Shalom,

    (Ya know Dru, (Dave), personally I don’t think that I have enough time left here to actually finish that book? As well, I don’t think that there is much time left for any of us? Just call that a hunch.)
    Be Blessed.

    • I am sorry to hear you are gone alienated. I am only new and here for a short time but I found your posts refreshing and rejuvenating. I am so sorry to see them gone. Your work or research is rare and special and it is too bad because most people in this day and age run by the seat of their pants or I guess on feelings. Just so you know I respected and enjoyed reading your posts. Thank you…a passing friend that knows there are too few with passion for truth which is the heart of God and our Saviour Jesus and it is the sign of the Prescence of the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of His children. God Bless you alienated

  46. Hey to whom it may concern about Eliakim -I’m new on here and I only read the one post – and always try to find something positive about a post if I can. Bro. Tom

  47. cameowalkin – thanks for the beautiful post you sent me brother. That was great and I take it in. —— Lord bless you always

  48. Dear Marianne — I do not need or want the blog from eliakim – Thanks anyway. Like I said I was just trying to be friendly for one thing. I just read a few minutes before that “He was high and lifted Up and his train filled the temple” — so I just throwed that in there. Sorry it has caused such a stir.
    Bro. York –

    PRAY FOR THE RAINS OF JOEL 2: 23 & 28 AND 29.




  50. 1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

    2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

    3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

    4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

    5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

    6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    Revelation 5:1-14. KJV.

  51. Why is it so common to read half of sentence from Bible, and go on rabbit trail. Ephes. 4:11 tell: apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists to equip the saints TO BUILD THE CHURCH. It’s a lost concept to build the church. Next few verses tell what it means: until all come to unity of faith and knowledge. Until all joined and knit together and function as one Body.
    That is what they had in first church(Act 4:32). Unity that God gave them for free, in our days takes all ministries and equipped saints to achieve. Do you know any church that works to have that Unity? Building of Church, Bride of Christ was substituted by saving of souls. Good excuse to conquer “unsaved” countries in a past. Do you think Jesus will come before Church is build? What if we collect ten times more members than needed to build the Body? What if we get ten times more living stones than needed to build House of God(1 Peter 2:5)? Enemy wants us work hard, to get more living stone, to get more members, just do not build the Body, do not build the Temple, do not get Bride of Christ ready. So wedding of Jesus delayed, and more people lost.

  52. Beautiful,The Pastor. is the Shepherd,he or she should train and encourage the congregation,to go out into the vineyard people are so complacent,theyvwant to ne feed,they keep all of the food to themselves

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