Enoch, and Elijah and Einstein

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How does Einstein’s time dilation theory apply to Enoch and Elijah, and the end times?

Reference:

http://danielrjennings.org/enoch_elijah_and_einsteins_theory_of_relativity.html

Excerpt:

If Enoch and Elijah were taken into outer space at respectively 3017BC and 849BC we are faced with a problem.  How could these two men still be living thousands of years later?

Even if Judgment Day were this year, that would make them 5024 and 2856 years old respectively.  Here is where Albert Einstein comes into play.

In October of 1971 J. C. Hafele and Richard E. Keating placed four cesium-beam atomic clocks aboard commercial airliners and flew twice around the world in opposite directions, then compared the clocks against those of the United States Naval Observatory.

The results were astounding and confirmed Einstein’s theory of time dilation.

The clocks on the airplane flying east, though just minutely, had moved slower than the clocks on the earth. This experiment was repeated in 2005 by the National Physical Laboratory in the United Kingdom and received similar results.

Scientists have even figured out a mathematical formula to calculate just how much slower time would go for a near light speed traveler in comparison to those remaining on earth.

t’ = t√(1-[ V2/c2])

Where: t’   =  dilated time (shortened time in

space)

t    =  stationary time (normal time on

earth)

V   =  velocity (speed in relation to the

speed of light)

c   =  speed of light

According to Einstein’s theory, if Enoch was picked up in 3017BC, and traveled for only six hours and fifty five minutes, at a velocity of 99.99999999999876% of the speed of light, he would return to an earth that had aged 5024 years.  Millennia would have passed on the earth but he would only be a few hours older.

Round this number up and one sees that 5024 years on earth would equal 00.079% of one year in space traveling at the above speed.

Do a little more math and one can see that 00.079% of one year equals six hours and fifty five minutes.

Now, let’s take Elijah.  He lived a long time after Enoch, ministering up until approximately 849BC.

According to this formula, if he were taken on a whirlwind trip of the universe, traveling at the same speed as Enoch, he could return to our time, 2856 years later, in only three hours and fifty six minutes.

Application:

I wonder if all these 2 prophets are doing now is zipping around space at the speed of light, waiting to come back to earth. Funny thought.

The key to the time conversion is movement at the speed of light.

The Bible says that a day (1440 minutes) is as a thousand years. If there is travel (forward movement), according to Einstein, a day (in heaven) is equal to 17,433 years on earth.

It took Michael, the angel, 21 days to reach Daniel with a response from God, because he was fighting Satan in the heavenlies.

So for Michael, it was only about 0.0083 minutes (0.498 seconds, or 498 milliseconds) for non-movement, and 17,433 times faster if there was movement.

Traveling from heaven to earth, and fighting Satan indicates forward movement, so Michael handled Satan in no time at all, in our earth time.

Many people like to predict the timing of the tribulation, or the last week of Daniel, and when Jacob’s trouble might start.

While we do have the Hebrew calendar to follow, and other signs, God has his own clock.

Regarding the tribulation period, when God says He will “shorten the time for sake of the elect,” we have no clue what amount of earth time he means.

For those who expect to spend 7 years in heaven during the tribulation, as a result of a rapture, do not bother to pack your bags. You will be back in no time at all.

7 earth years may only be 59.760 seconds in heaven.

Many think, in the next life, eternity will be a long time, and will be boring.

It seems that it will have the opposite effect. For most of eternity, it will seem like we just arrived.

This post is just the beginning of reflection on this point.


182 Responses to “Enoch, and Elijah and Einstein”

  1. […] Enoch, and Elijah and Einstein […]

  2. Wow! I love that last paragraph!

  3. Wow.
    VERY NICE blog!
    I LOVE to ponder upon this type of subject!

    AWESOME! 😀

  4. Speaking of TIME … this was emailed to me.

    A vision …
    IN A VISION LAST MONDAY 7/20/09 IN THE A.M. SHE SAW IT!
    SHE SAW HIM! STANDING THERE IN FRONT OF THE MOON, DRESSED IN A WHITE, FULL LENGTH GARMENT. FROM THE GLOW OF THE MOON FORMED THE SIGN OF THE CROSS, ILLUMINATING BEHIND HIM. A STAR WAS SET AT EACH POINT OF THE CROSS, NORTH, SOUTH AND WEST, NO STAR SET AT THE EAST POINT. HE “JESUS” HELD IN HIS HAND A TRUMPET. AS HE RAISED THE TRUMPET TO HIS MOUTH, HIS HEAD TURNED TOWARDS THE WEST ARM OF THE CROSS AND HE TILTED IT SO FAR BACK THAT THE TRUMPET POINTED STRAIGHT UP NORTH TOWARDS THE NORTH POINT OF THE CROSS. AS HE BLEW THE TRUMPET AND THE SOUND BLARED WITH SUCH COMMAND, A RUSH OF HUGE STREAMING LIGHTS OF MANY COLORS BURST FORTH AND THE MIGHTY SOUND OF THE TRUMPET MIRACULOUSLY SPOKE THE WORDS…”IT’S TIME”!

    HER SOUL BEGAN LIFTING UP OUT OF HER BODY AND SHE ALSO SAW OTHER SOULS IN THE FORM OF SOFT FLUFFY BALLS OF LIGHT, RISING TOWARDS THE LORD. THEY WERE COMING FROM ALL OVER THE EARTH. AS THEY ROSE THEY ALL INDIVIDUALLY WHISPERED SOFTLY… IT’S TIME!…IT’S TIME!

    THE ALARM CLOCK SOUNDED! SHE REACHED TO TURN IT OFF AND AT THAT MOMENT WITH BOTH HANDS SHE GRABBED HER CHEST BECAUSE “SHE FELT HER SOUL AS IT WAS RE-ENTERING HER BODY. SHE LAY THERE TAKING DEEP BREATHS AS THE TEARS BEGIN TO GENTLY FALL.

    THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE WAS SOOTHING…CALMING, SERENE IN IT’S NATURE. IN HER VIEW, WHATEVER ONE HAD IMAGINED THE RAPTURE EXPERIENCE WOULD BE…IT IS BEYOND BELIEF!!!!!

    IT WAS BEAUTIFUL!

  5. I have thought about going as fast as closely to light speed. It won’t work, do you know why? You will gain so much mass, your heart will not be able to pump the blood and you will not be able to breathe, so you will die!
    Also it will take more than 9000 years to accelerate with 1G to that speed.

    • hi gyod

      how did you figure that out? Do you have something I can read?

      How would the Philadelphia experiment fit into this?

      https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/prophecy-rapture-and-the-science-of-time-travel/

      • Marianne, you will find this under special relativity in wikipedia. The more you approach light speed the more the energy goes into the inertia and not into additional speed.
        Enoch would have died long before time would have been dilated significantly. I think, the moment Enoch got translated he got changed and became what we will become too, angel like beings. From many reports you hear that you travel at the speed of thought over there. So, the rapture is no big problem in this regard.

    • Very similiar arguments were made by a few scientists at the prospect of motorized travel at speeds of 60 miles per hour. Some believed especially in the “not being able to breath” idea, which seems to have a lot of credibilty. According to my reading of Einstein (though I am not an expert), he explains how difficult it is to observe a difference, because the ruler you are carrying also changes size, etc. Ever been in one of those elevators that moves tens of stories every second? You don’t feel a thing…

      • Forgoet to mention, the Earth travels around the Sun at 18.55 miles per second.

        The Sun travels around the center of the Milky Way galaxy at 487,383 mph or 135 miles per second

        • Mea,

          Hi hope you are well.

          It is movement that brings about mass and time.

          What is the velocity of the Earth? It depends what it is relative. Corelaus aceleration!!!

          Love,

          John

          PS Forgive the spelling.

        • hi mea

          True, we do seem to already travel at speeds that seem to be unrealistic. why don’t we feel our planet move at 18.55 miles a second?

          By the way, those elevators are something else. I have been in one and could feel my stomach drop when going down, and like my head was pushing against a wall on the way up. Going up gave me an idea of what being raptured felt like. 🙂

          • Marianne,
            Shame on you for asking the question:
            Why don’t we feel our planet move at 18.55 miles a second?
            This blog is all bout Einstein’s special theory of relativity and you have completely forgotten his general theory of relativity which states that motion is relative to the observer. In other words a man on a moving train appears to be in motion from an observers standpoint on the ground. But to another passenger, that man is not moving at all – and they are both right!. How? Because motion is RELATIVE. We don’t feel like we’re moving because from our standpoint we are not. Add to this the problem that due to a finite speed of light, everything we observe is in the past so accurate measurements of anything are impossible. An I’d gets worse but I don’t have time to try to explain the entire theory of relativity here. Suffice to say, it doesn’t matter how fast we move, we won’t feel it EXCEPT when we approach the speed of light – then it become special. But we are nowhere even remotely close to that speed even when you take into account that the universe is expanding at another incredible speed.
            So we can’t feel speed, we can only feel the force of acceleration – when we change speed or direction (velocity). So we feel an elevator as it speeds up or stops but if you take an express elevator say to the top of the empire state building (and I have), after a couple of floors the speed levels off and it’s like you are standing still. Also, if you go around a corner at a constant speed, that change in direction can be felt in what is erroneously called centrifugal force.
            So don’t forget to send Einstein a thank you letter for not flinging you out into space right now.

  6. This was all very interesting, intellectually. And the vision contributed by Abigail: wow! But in regards to Enoch’s and Elijah’s translations, why bother trying to explain such a spiritual event – with its own dynamics – with physics that relate to this plane of existence? God took ’em to heaven: isn’t that enough to know?

    Also very interesting that comes up now: I’ve beoome increasingly fascinated by one who had such intimacy with God, that God spared him physical death to bring him to Himself!I’ve been believing for some time for God to impart to me Enoch’s life in a dream, or series of dreams, so I can write it down. A biogrgaphy of sorts, to inform and encourage us, for how to live like that in these times.

  7. Paul said absent from the body, present with the Lord. While interesting, these calculations assert a sort of placelessness or nonlocality. Also, they fail to take into account extradimensionality, a fact that Paul alludes to in Ephesians 3:18 (“what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”)

    That’s 4 dimensions. A fourth obviates a fifth, a fifth- a sixth and so on. So time is a non factor when forward movement is considered since if I were only a fifth dimensional being as opposed to a third dimensional one, I could enter and exit any point in my own life at will. Further, in a 9th or 10th (the absolute upper limit for dimensionality- and where I believe God and thus the departed saints and we will inhabit) one could enter and exit any point in all of existence (imagine the possibilities of stepping back in time with the saints to witness creation!) at will, since all points, for all time in all possible iterations would be one singularity.

  8. That is however a concept of human reasoning which is not necessarily supported by scripture. It rather indicates a linear time-frame with one direction. God has a perfect memory and can display that very well without access to past history. People visiting heaven have reported that. If a saint will go back to its own time, do we have two copies then? I believe that we all are unique and this time-travel is a grand deception.

  9. God certainly doesn’t need access to the past to know it as intimately as we know our present. The ramifications of multidimensionality are for the saints. While similar in some of its tenets to string theory, the idea of an extradimensional world is not at all in conflict with scripture, vis a vis my prior scriptural examples from the writings of Paul.

    John visited the future in the Spirit. Do you mean to tell me that there was no heaven in John’s future because he visited it? Could he not have seen himself in the throngs of the beatified Bride? Too Enoch, Ezekiel and Isaiah who for all practical purposes visited the future in the Spirit. While I’m not advocated some leisurely divine travel agency through time I do think that it is tantalizing to imagine viewing the totality of God’s design through the hindsight of extradimensionality.

    This isn’t an attempt to explain away the workings of the Spirit or the power of God. It is simply pointing out tenets that are not scripturally contradicted nor logically unfounded. Saying that the resurrected Christ was an extradimensional being and thus was able to pass not only through walls but through space and time leaves no deficit of reverence for the fact and makes no attempt at compartmentalizing God into something more anthropomormically palatable. Maranatha

    • John did not visit the future. He saw what would happen in the future! I am sorry but your theory is nowhere supported.
      At the judgment of the Great White Throne the earth and heaven will be dissolved. In your story they still exist in the past. Do also all heavens at any given time exist simultaneously? What kind of existence do these other time periods have? Is their a Lord Jesus in heaven and a Jesus on earth? Will we have two Jesus’ on earth should he decide to visit himself? Do you see how stupid this sounds and how this time-travel nonsense has warped your mind(pun intended)?

  10. Hi everyone … have you seen the miracle star??
    They even now have a commercial of this anticipated mystery ‘maitreya’.

  11. And here is one of these commercials …

  12. Does anyone know the distance and astronomical location of this star?

    • hi gyod

      I wrote to an astronomer friend about this….this was his reply….I have no opinion…..

      Hi Marianne,

      They are images of different celestial objects! (Stars, Nebulae etc)

      Most of them are out of focus, but none of them are the same!

      Let me ask you a question.

      Have you seen it?

      Have any of your friends seen it?

      I haven’t seen it, nor any of my astronomical friends!

      This is just another BS story and of course it will attract gullible people in their thousands.

      If God wants to attract people by putting another bright sun in the sky, believe me, EVERYONE will know about it, not just some select few!

      Please stop getting sucked in by all this New Age mumbo jumbo.

      There are enough of them in the world already!

      This story has been going around since the mid 1960’s.

      There is a sucker born every minute, and that is what these sort of stories rely on.

      Don’t be one of the stastistics!

      Cheers,

      Glenn

  13. I AM SEEING A A VERY BRIGHT OBJECT IN THE SKY AT NIGHT. I THINK IT IS A PLANET. IT IS BIGGER THAN YOUR AVERAGE STAR.IT COMES UP FROM THE N. E. AS IT RISES IN THE SKY. I AM SEEING THIS FROM CENTRAL TEXAS . I HAVE A SM. TELESCOPE AND LOOKING THRU IT I SAW 2 MOONLETS ON EACH SIDE OF THIS VERY ROUND OBJECT. THE MOONLETS ARE LIKE A VERY SMALL TINY MOONS. ONE ON THE LEFT AND ONE ON THE RIGHT . I HAVE BEEN SEEING THIS FOR A WHILE NOW. THD DATE TODAY IS AUGUST 10, 2009 . I AM SURE IT IS A PLANET. CAN ANY ONE OUT THERE TELL ME IF THIS IS A PLANET . IF SO WHICH ONE. THANK YOU. BLESSING NHEL “LET ALL THINGS PRAISE THE LORD.”

  14. PS I AM THINKING IT COULD BE JUPITOR. BLESSINGS, NHEL.

    • hi Nhel

      You might be looking at nibiru, a planet that only comes along about every 3600 years.

      here is a picture close up

      people say they can see it now.

      • Marianne,
        Please do not fall into this ridiculous “Planet Nibiru” hoax. It is one of the more ridiculous things you have mentioned. I checked out the theory/stories in detail and once again all I found was crap. Come on! A planet ¼ mile across, out past the orbit of Neptune still, and yet able to affect the earths environment and even tilt it off it’s axis once the rock reaches it’s closest approach to earth – only as close as the asteroid belt? Give me a break! There are dozens of asteroids over 5 miles across that are already in the asteroid belt and have absolutely no influence on the earth. You flout Einstein’s special theory of relativity on this blog, try using the simple formulas of gravitational attraction to see how much a tiny rock so far away can do to something as big as the earth. The whole concept is so stupid it gives me a headache thinking about it. And since NASA and other reputable astronomers deny its existence, they claim that that is “proof” it must be true – it is a cover-up to prevent worldwide panic. Yeah, right. And the Norway lights were little green men flying around with glow-sticks. Oh no wait I forgot – it was Santa Claus.

      • June 30, 2010..I have been seeing “it” (not sure what but it is very bright-at first seeing it I assumed it was venus) now in the western sky every night for the past few months…it is very bright-same location each night

  15. Interesting article. Mathematics and physics always interesting.

    After reading the article on his website, I may make a comment.

    His statement needs to be clarified:

    “From these verses Gen 1:14-18 it is clear that the heavens include what modern science has termed outer space. Thus, the text seems to imply that Elijah, being taken up into the “heavens”, was taken into outer space. … “

    The scientists’ ‘outer space’ is ‘the space out there’. Where Elijah taken up to should be ‘beyond the space’ rather than ‘the space out there’.

    • Hi Ounbbl

      There is alot of science to be explored, in revealing how it explains events in the bible. I am looking at Tesla’s theories now.

  16. Well once again you are trying to use a convoluted scientific theory to explain a biblical event. It should be obvious that this theory alone can not be used to explain how the prophets might be kept alive for so long. The theory was never meant to allow man to travel long distances or to age more slowly. It merely explains how the universe works. For your idea to work it would require divine intervention of some sort, so why would God go through all that trouble?
    In any case I can prove biblically that this idea is bogus.
    You forget that Elijah and Moses were brought down from heaven to meet with Jesus and a few disciples. If they had stepped out of a spaceship I’m sure that would have caught the author’s attention. (In fact they would have had to arrive in separate vessels). It certainly screws up the whole time line.
    If God can allow Methusela to live 969 years maybe he can extend real life as long as he feels like it. After all, science is on the verge of conquering death by stem cells and bioengineering in another hundred years, so I’m sure God has beat them to it.
    I’m afraid this whole blog is much ado about nothing.

    Oh. And please tell Cindy if she gets a hold of Enoch to ask him about that “enclosure” thing.
    Thanks.

    • hi James

      My goal is to show that God can sometimes use science, or defy it, in creating miraculous events.

      This is to counter allegations by scientists that biblical events are impossible, and therefore dis-proven, from a scientific point of view.

      While biblical events that defy science continue to be at odds with scientific reasoning, events that are consistent with science only help to support the events.

      • Marianne,
        I’m all for using science to prove biblical events, as long as you are reasonable and use “proven” science that all reputable scientists can agree on. I agree that some of the ideas are intriguing and might be fun for the novices to ponder but i can see right thru many of them (like this one) and would sound Kinda kooky to the real scientific community. I hate to see these butt-heads scoffing at us believers because we try to sound scientific but our theories have no teeth to them.
        This is exactly what led me to my “flood in a container” theory long before I read the book of Enoch. It was the only way the flood could possibly be accomplished from a scientific standpoint, force fields not withstanding.
        I’m really on your side. I just get disappointed when someone uses pseudo-science or far-out theories to do it. My container idea seemed too clever to most folks but i felt vindicated when i read the book of Enoch to discover my idea was not so new and clever after all. It was simply correct.
        Science wins one for the bible! We should spread the word.
        While I’ve got you, I would like to see a blog on the Rapture – Pre, Mid or Post? Maybe soon, eh?
        Thanks

        • hi james

          My approach is to say “maybe it happened this way, or that way.” It is just speculation. I never say that God spoke to me, and the Word on it is final.

          I like to make people think a little. If they disagree, I want them to prove it. This forces them to go to the bible and read it for proof. 🙂

          Does your container theory fit the sunken land and cities found off the west coast of India, and also Atlantis? I guess I am still asking “how big is the container?”

          I already have some posts that relate to the tribulation and rapture, but not in the form you mention. Pre, mid, and post, for me, depends on the definitions of certain events, and I explain that in the posts.

          Example: 7 year tribulation followed by wrath, or 3 1/2 years of tribulation, followed by wrath, or “tribulation 10 days,” or is the rapture = or not = to the “second coming?”…..etc

  17. Marianne,
    I believe the enclosure mentioned by Enoch was large enough to cover the world of the bible at that time. Remember there were only ten generations from Adam to Noah. These generations migrated a ways away from Eden but not all that far. I’m sure they hadn’t reached India, Australia or the Americas. They probably never reached Egypt or even Israel. Now I’m not going to invent some pseudo-scientific migration theory to figure it out although it could probably be done with some degree of accuracy by the proper researcher. (You might want to put that on your to-do list).
    As for sunken cities (and there are many throughout the world including Alexandria, Tyre and others) the flood would not explain why these cities are now below sea level. There are natural fluctuations n sea level and as we speak sea level is rising and flooding cities and land areas around the world. It may be global warming that is causing it but it is not a biblical event. New Orleans flooded because it was built below sea level relying on man-made levees to keep the sea out. I learned of the inevitable future disaster in 1977 from my first geology teacher. He said it was a sure thing in his opinion and he was right. Some say Katrina was an act of god but the flood was the fault of man.
    Some places like Venice are actually sinking. Add that to a rise in sea level and it may someday be a candidate for a lost sunken city.
    As for Atlantis – lets not go there girl. There is no proof that the story of Atlantis is anything but a fairy tale. In fact, we now know it does not exist because the entire sea floor has been scanned an mapped. If we can find thousands of tiny shipwrecks around the world you would think they could find an entire city down there. Please do go to science fiction now to prove the flood. And besides, the Atlantis story occurred way post flood and it supposedly sank beneath the sea – like Krakatoa. If the whole world was buried under 7 miles of water I’m sure Plato would have mentioned it. It trumps Atlantis easily. It was just a story.
    Got anything more real for me?
    Jim

  18. Here is proof of atlantis.

  19. Plato received his knowledge from Egypt.
    http://www.atlantisquest.com/Hiero.html
    Historical Egyptian records ‘Supporting this migration tradition, Diodorus of Sicily writes: “The Egyptians were strangers, who, in remote times, settled on the banks of the Nile, bringing with them the civilization of their mother country [Atlantis?], the art of writing, and a polished language. They had come from the direction of the setting sun [the far West] and were the most ancient of men.” (Library of History’

  20. Abigail,
    Thanks for the video link. I got a kick out of many of them especially the proof that Nazi Germany landed a flying saucer on Mars in 1945. The webmaster is a crack-up of the first degree. I hope no one ever takes him seriously though as they might be led astray from the truth. WAY astray!
    As for the Atlantis info, as usual it was all just a hoax. I checked the Google images myself and everything looked geological on Google. You must remember how the Atlantic basin was formed – by sea-floor spreading from the mid-atlantic rift. There is only one island on this rift and I lived there for over a year, and that is Iceland. It sits on a hot spot that vents much more magma than the rest of the rift.
    Now if Atlantis was created from the rift it would still be here today. Entire mountain ranges do not simply sink into the earth’s crust and disappear. Now, the top may be blown off in a big eruption, (like Krakatoa in 1882) and the island could, like Krakatoa, disappear from sight. But like Krakatoa it would be just below the surface and future eruptions (they would not just stop) and like Krakatoa, it would eventually reappear.
    If for example, Hawaii completely blew up tomorrow, we would expect to find a huge debris field all around the island. The rock has to go somewhere. So finding a shape on the bottom of the ocean means nothing and in fact is the opposite of what we would expect to see. And that crap about still being able to see river valleys and other things that seem to match the so-called map of Plato is so grasping-at-straws. If the top of the island blew away all formations above the surface would be totally obliterated and if is simply sank straight down then the laws of physics were violated because as I said, where would all the rock go? And if so we would expect to see the buildings, pyramids or other structures possibility still intact.
    And since the Egyptians used hieroglyphics to record their history, you would expect them to have left a record of such and event.
    When I asked for proof I wasn’t looking for a bunch of jokers with a web site. I was expecting a National Geographic expedition or a respected documentarian to show real proof, not some Bozo showing a shape here or there and calling it proof just cause he says so. Geologists would say not and I will keep believing them until I see some real proof.

    • Let me just say that Hawaii is formed by lava and is in a continual process of expansion.
      Palm trees fully grown appear after ten years from such rich ground.
      Do not dismiss the little video I have presented.
      This person relied on history, and on satellite and on geography to create his little theory.
      And without the funds for exploration it may remain dormant for a while.
      I know that you did not appreciate my $15.00 bunch of banana theory on the banana belt but it is still a fact.
      And the Bozo produced a map from a jesuit.
      A theory is first scorned and then laughed at before it becomes accepted.
      We see evidence of this over and over again …. when will man be curious enough to investigate possibilities before denying them?

      • Abigail,
        While I am not a professional geologist, while in college I took twice as many units of geology than I would have needed to major in the subject, so please believe what I am telling you. Take your theory to a local high school or college and ask a reputable source if you don’t believe me.
        In any case, let me explain the facts. Again.
        For an island like Atlantis to have formed in the Atlantic it would have had to come from the mid-atlantic ridge – the source of all magma and the driving force for plate tectonics. Therefore the island would have had to be located in the middle of the Atlantic, not off the coast of Florida where the video shows it. Now, if the island were to start at the rift and have moved to the current location by way of seafloor spreading, at 2.5″ per year it would have taken roughly (120,384,000 inches (1900 miles) divided by 2.5 inches per year = 48 million years, which matches the geologic timeline quite nicely. So if Atlantis existed, it was almost 50 million years ago.
        And logically it makes no sense for Atlantis to be located a few hundred miles from north America yet they supposedly travelled all the way to Egypt to escape from the danger. And so where did they come from? America? Or maybe they discovered America way before the Vikings.
        It is obvious he scoured Google earth the world over looking for something he could use. I found many other hypesters claiming they also found Atlantis – near India, china, all over the pacific, wherever they see anything that looks unusual. One gut claims he found it on the moon. Give me a break. But I’ve seen movies that say they were an advanced race from outer space with incredible technology – all lost in the disaster. So they swam to Africa and built the pyramids? There are too many crazy theories and they can’t all be true. But the CAN all be wrong.

        • james an abigail

          If Atlantis existed, and also be known in the ancient Greek world, wouldn’t the most logical place for it be in or near the Mediterranean?

          Being far out in the Atlantic Ocean would make its existence less likely known.

          But then, since people traveled by ship a lot, the location could be most anywhere. There are sunken cities found. One was just found off west India. Here is one off the northwest coast of Africa:

          http://sachron3.chs5h06.com/blog/2009/02/atlantis-found-on-google-earth-official-explanation-is-dubious/

          I checked this on google earth.. I found the same structure.

        • I do not believe you took a close look on google.
          Try to find ‘Great Meteor Tablemount’ at approximately 31 25’N and 28 40′ West. It is not close to America at all!!
          When you viewed the video you probably did not notice the directions.

          • One of the Google maps was near the Bahamas and I found it myself.
            The one you mention here is 2000 miles away in the east Atlantic. It is 290 miles from the “grid” Marianne just mentioned so I guess you are saying the seamount was the mountain on the map and the grid was the city some distance away.
            OK, first of all, the mount is 14,000 feet below sea level and the grid area is over 17,000 feet deep. The mount rises up from the plains – the relatively flat sea floor. It is 3000 feet high. The cruiser tablemount to the north is only 2 miles deep – roughly the same depth of the mid-atlantic ridge from which the entire sea floor has come over the last 65 million years. If there was ever a huge volcano rising above the surface (like Iceland) we would see SOME remnant of it today. There are tablemounts all over the ocean floor. They are common features and are not proof of an ancient island.
            As for the grid, according to Google, they are the result of an underwater exploration – grooves made in a predetermined pattern by dragging instrument packages such as metal detectors behind a ship. I have seen this done on many national geographic expeditions. The used it to find the titanic.
            The grid lines actually cross small peaks and they are not very straight, as you would expect from an advanced civilization. Plus, these are merely grooves in the sediment on the ocean floor. They are not roads, walls or buildings. I would be willing to bet that in a few decades these lines will either be eroded away or filled in with new sediment proving that are recent in origin.
            The grid is not part of a sunken island. It is on a gigantic plain and it is not connected geologically to the seamounts.
            All I can say after all this is simply that a bunch of scratches on the ocean floor do not prove the existence of an ancient civilization, a super-island or any sort of cataclysmic geological event.
            I’m sorry to burst your bubble again but you’ve got to come up with a lot more than this to convince me or any reputable geologist.

            • curious….they can dig 17000 ft below the water surface? Who said they did this? Who did the digging? Where did they get a cable that long, and how did they control the dig, so that it looks so straight in the lines?

              • Marianne,
                I take it you have never seen a national geographic special on wreck diving so I will explain. The don’t do any digging, they drop a long cable with equipment attached from the surface and drag it along the bottom looking for metal from cannons, gold etc. This dragging produces lines in the sand at the bottom of the sea.
                They use GPS to keep the ship traveling in relatively straight lines along a predetermined grid pattern. (Note that some are a little crooked though – probably from surface winds at the time of that run – but unlike a road or wall which you would expect to be perfectly straight.) You can also see that many of the N-S lines actually cross the last E-W line at the bottom – they went a little further just to complete the grid. Not what you would expect from a wall or street. The size and location of the grid depends on how accurate their information is as to where the ship sunk. For the Titanic, they new the exact location from the radio dispatcher at the time of the sinking and from the Carpathia who rescued the survivors shortly thereafter. Bob Ballard, who discovered the Titanic actually sent down video cameras to follow the trail of debris that fell out of the broken ship on its way down. But they used a grid to find the debris in the first place.
                Whoever created the “Atlantis” grid was probably trying to examine those small
                “bumps” at the left edge of the grid thinking they might be sunken vessels covered with silt. Notice that several of the scratches actually go right over the bumps. Either the bumps turned out to be nothing and they gave up or maybe they were ships and they dove on them and recovered untold riches which they failed to report to the world so they wouldn’t have to pay taxes or hand them over to some museum somewhere. Maybe you should be looking into THAT possibility!

    • Lets not forget to mention the azores are the closest to the atlantic ridge also much closer to it than any existing island,

  21. Oh yeah, I forgot another point. According to legend Atlantis sank in a day. The flood took 40 days. And when the waters receded the city would have re-emerged if the flood was the only mechanism.
    Plus the Atlantians would have all drowned and so they could not have migrated from anywhere to current egypt. No matter what you say you can’t link Atlantis, real or not, to Noah’s flood.
    Come on back, pardner.

    • hi james

      What if the mountains sank, and the foundations were elevated during an event, like the flood, that shook the earth?

      2Sa 22:8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.

      It seems like to form a basin, God would have to rearrange the landscape.- elevating low lands to make mountains, and dropping mountains down to create a basin, and make room for the water. Maybe land masses split open. This geological rearrangement could have permanently sank some cities.

      Although the flood lasted for 40 days, I am sure many people died on day one.

      what do you think?

      • First of all, I don’t think David’s description was literal nor was he describing the flood of Noah. There was no reason for god to rearrange the earth at that time, and if such an abrupt geologic upheaval had taken place, modern geologists would be aware of it by now and it would be in the current textbooks. You are trying to mix geology with the hand of god. As soon as you do that, the science goes out the window – you can’t trust it.
        You have spent a lot of time putting together scientific theories using real processes. Your biggest problem is not the laws of nature but that of Time. You and many others believe they can simple speed up the geologic processes to any speed required to make their theory fit, but only god himself can do that, so then science is voided and it becomes a miracle.
        My flood theory is the only one I have seen that does not need to violate the laws of science to accomplish it. If you truly want to do the same you will have to accept Enoch at face value and stop trying to prove him wrong.

        • james

          actually the basin theory makes the least sense. I imagine water up 700-900 ft or more, up in the air, adjacent to nothing but air. Air or some force field is holding water up in the air? There is no container in the middle east that could be the “walls” that held in the flood, and contained it to one geographical area.

          • OK, if you don’t believe God can create a force field, then how did he hold back the waters of the red sea? Air? Did he build a glass wall that nobody noticed? Maybe he built a cement wall around the holy land and then destroyed it. If he can make water from nothing and make it disappear he could do the same with concrete.
            If Enoch was a liar then God used magic to flood the planet. It is as simple as that.
            I’m going with Enoch on this one.

            • if you do not believe science can explain the food may have been world wide, which is what the bible says, then why do you use science to explain how this basin was sitting up there in thin air?

              This is not about enoch. it is about what the bible says, vs what the book of enoch said. Are they contradicting each other, or are they in agreement?

              Enoch was also seeing a vision of symbols, just like Revelation uses symbolism. Noah was a white cow. Maybe the basin is not that literal either.

              • Marianne,
                I’m not sure you understand the “basin” concept so here goes again…
                Have you ever been to an aquarium? Seen one on TV? Ever seen an above ground swimming pool? Do they float in mid air? NO. Are they enclosures for water? YES. Now imagine the walls being made from energy and thus not visible (scientist are actually working on this technology right now using high-energy plasma as a shield for jet fighters. Sounds like star wars but its coming soon to an army near you.
                So let’s assume that God already has this technology. So he can build an enclosure (a fence, a wall, whatever you like) like the great wall of china only way taller. Then he can transport water into it in the same way as you think he did for a world-wide flood. Everyone inside would assume that the whole world got flooded, but what would they base that on? So when God is finished he drains the tank, disassembles the force field (or wall if you like) and goes his merry way.
                To his people – the end of the world. To the rest of the world, no harm no foul.
                And here’s another thought. If the flood was worldwide, why weren’t the ancient mayans, Incas, aborigines, American Indians etc all wiped out? They were here at least 17,000 years ago, long before the flood. All land species everywhere would have gone extinct and a paltry few thousand years would have never been enough to repopulate the earth to present conditions. That’s why I say there is no proof outside the holy land of a flood. No geological evidence, no archaeological evidence, nothing but rumors and wild theories. Otherwise it would be in my textbooks and I would already be on your side. You can’t use science to prove a worldwide flood, but you can if you keep it local.
                Hey, if a rock ¼ miles across and 3 billion miles away can cause global climate change then God can build a swimming pool.
                Come on back good buddy.

                • hi james

                  Nibiru is supposed to be 4x the size of earth, and not a billion miles away. Just going by the reports.

                  Where would all the water go when God emptied the basin? Wouldn’t that flood the adjacent areas?

  22. Marianne,
    I checked out the site and read it carefully. Once again, it’s a dude with an agenda, trying to prove an interesting theory with bad science and false assumptions.
    In any case, he disproves the biblical flood when he says the pyramid was only flooded to 400 feet and no higher. Plus his flood occurred 10000 years ago – far before the big flood. And to top it off his flood is totally bogus. He claims that salt water from the Mediterranean partially covered the pyramid. Check Google earth and you will see that the pyramids sit at an elevation of 243 feet above sea level. The sea level would have had to rise a total of 743 feet to accomplish this. I’m afraid his entire flood scenario is quite impossible.
    If you aren’t already familiar with pyramidology, go to this page:
    http://www.gizapyramid.com/pyr.htm
    Speaking of Enoch, I believe it was he who built the pyramids – to God’s specifications and that they are the monument mentioned in Isaiah:
    Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
    You should make a blog on this subject perhaps – if you are looking for signs of God’s work. And it is interesting that the dates he gave for the building dates which he tried to repudiate fit perfectly into the lifetime of Enoch, as does the time line built into the pyramid itself. This dude knows nothing about this or if he does he ignores it to make his point. Pyramidology is too perfect to be a coincidence. Like prophecy – it can be proved using math, not science.
    Let me know what you think.

    • hi james

      I do not think anyone’s “time of flood” is accurate, if it is from an extra- biblical source. It could have been the same flood.

      you said:

      The sea level would have had to rise a total of 743 feet to accomplish this. I’m afraid his entire flood scenario is quite impossible.

      I do not see why this deep a flood is impossible. We do not know how big your basin was, or what territory it covered. 743 feet is deep enough to float an ark, and drown people.

      • I wasn’t referring to the biblical flood. I was talking about the flood discussed on the web site you sent me to:
        hi james

        Can you go to this link and see what you think?

        http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_2_4.htm

        then go to:

        “ANCIENT LEGENDS AND MODERN RESEARCH CONFIRM EACH OTHER”

        there seems to be evidence that the great flood affected the Great Pyramid….it seems water 400 feet deep is a flood….

        marianne

        This flood could not have happened naturally. That is a fact.

        As for the flood of Noah, we know it was in a container rising to at least around 17,000 feet above sea level. We know this because the Ark has been discovered and after falling a bit, most of it rests at around 16,000 feet. Check it out here:
        http://www.wyattmuseum.com/noahs-ark-07.htm
        As I said before, the great flood was not natural. It was an act of God. How he did it and where it happened is what we’re discussing here.
        Sorry for the confusion on the two different floods.

    • Abigail,
      The answer to the question “Can Atlantis rise again? Is most definitely NO! And the author shows his ignorance at even making the suggestion. The Great Meteor Tablemount is only 3000 feet high. It would have to rise another 14000 feet to break the surface. It is no longer over a volcanic hot spot so it is extinct as far as underwater volcanos go. And lastly, it was NEVER above the surface in the first place, so rising again is a complete misnomer. This man is a false prophet. Do not be taken in just because the idea is Kinda cool and intriguing.
      Nuff said.

      • Great Meteor Tablemount in the northeast Atlantic, standing more than 4,000 m (13,120 feet) above the surrounding terrain, with a basal diameter of up to 110 km (70 miles).
        From Encyclopedia Britannica.

        So where do you get your info??

        • Please tell us where you get your facts from?
          The video I have posted on this page is from Google Earth satellite visuals.
          You tube is a channel to post information.
          And we should be thankful that we have these great devices at our fingertips.

          • Abigail,
            I used the elevation feature on Google earth. After all that is the source for the theory. I did discover though, that the underwater elevation changed as I zoomed in on the object(s). Apparently the Google depth calculator is only accurate when zoomed in close.. So I was forced to do my homework and become an expert on the feature. Turns out there isn’t much out there except for an extensive survey of ocean currents over the top of the mount. They used sophisticated instruments to measure the density of the sediments on the top of the mount to see how the currents disturb them and turn them over. After a thorough exploration they found nothing but silt. If there was an ancient city there they surely would have found it.
            All that aside, let me give you the geological history of the mount.
            First of all, it is actually a “Guyot” which means that it was once an island but has been worn flat by erosion of sea waves. (If the Google program worked better I would have figured that out right away). If there was once a civilization there it must have been before it was worn flat as that doesn’t happen until it has reached or is just below sea level. It is presently a little over 1000 feet below sea level and it continues to sink as the east Atlantic plate slowly moves toward Africa.
            According to one source:

            As the mid-ocean ridges spread apart, the guyots move with them, thus continually sinking deeper into the depths of the ocean. Thus, the greater amount of time that passes, the deeper the guyots become.[4] Although guyots can be hundreds of millions of years old, there have been some recently discovered guyots that were only formed within the last 1 million years, including Bowie Seamount on the coast of British Columbia, Canada. (Pacific coast).

            So the very youngest guyots are a million years old, not a few thousand as Atlantis would have been.
            I did the math on this one and it has moves 765 miles at 2.5″ per year for a total of 19,388,160 years. Doesn’t quite fit with Atlantis does it?
            Also, those lines that are supposed to be the actual city are 275 miles away and are 17,000 feet below sea level. They were never above sea level or if they were the entire ocean would have also been above sea level. And as you said, the guyot is only 70 miles in diameter and is not related geologically to the city grid.
            The mount took 20 million years to sink a little over 1000 feet. That’s a rip-roaring speed of 0.0006 inches per year.
            And you say Atlantis sank in a single day? I say no way.
            And besides, the mount is not the city and has nothing to do with it.
            So congratulations, you’ve found a former island. Too bad that’s all it is.

          • My facts come from either textbooks, real science sites or from calculations I make from information I already know – and when it comes to astronomy and geology, that’s a lot.
            You tube is like everything else on the internet. Garbage in, Garbage out as us computer programmers like to say.
            You tube can show facts or plain BS. The problem is that many people can’t tell the difference and will believe everything they see or read.
            “If its on the web then it must be true” right?
            Sorry but you can’t replace many years of serious study with a couple of clicks of your mouse on You Tube.
            I know this because it says so in the Koran. 🙂

            • In your own admission you are not a geologist and neither are you an oceanographer. You get your facts from Wikipedia, ‘the internet web of knowledge.’
              If you were knowledgeable you would have see what is so evident …
              And that is that Great Meteor Tablemount has already risen since 1999 a few thousand meters.
              The underworld is rising.

              • First of all, I never said that all information on the internet is false. Most encyclopedias do not have an agenda and they get their facts from reliable sources. I also looked up Atlantis in wikipedia and they actually indicate it was an unpublished, unfinished work of fiction that Plato gave up working on. If Atlantis has been proven it hasn’t made it into wikipedia yet.
                Next, the seamount has definitely not risen a few thousand meters in the last ten years. If a “few” is say 3, then it has risen almost two miles.
                Not only is that physically impossible, it is currently only 3000 feet high (above the ocean floor) that equals 1000 meters. If it has risen only one thousand meters in ten years then it must have started at zero, which means it never existed before 1999. Unless you are trying to say that the entire sea floor is rising at 1000 feet per year. Again, too fast for physics and we know that the sea floor sinks as it approaches the subduction zone where it disappears below the African continent.
                Now, if you think it is rising due to volcanism, well, first of all we would find fresh lava all over it and it would no longer be flat nor would it be labeled a Tablemount which means it is flat on top. Show me a perfectly flat active volcano and I will proclaim it to be Atlantis myself.
                We If you are right then it will breach the surface in about one year and geologists around the world would be anxiously awaiting the event – the first of its kind in history. Find me one of those geologists so he can convince me.
                Please show me where you got the info that it has been rising. I want to see it from a science journal, not another you tube video.

                And don’t forget, Atlantis was not on the seamount but 275 miles away on the ocean floor so even if the mountain did break the surface next year, the city would still be 17,000 feet down. The mount is not Atlantis so it is immaterial to the discussion at this point.

                Oh, and I’m just curious about the killer wave video, I have seen them discussed on national geographic specials and I believe they are rare but real. But I’m not sure why you posted the video. Do you think a big wave sank Atlantis? Just wondering.

    • I made am the author of this vide so what questions do you wonder of this?

      • I’ve got news for you, you have found the Great Meteor Tablemount first discovered after WWII by the U.S. Navy. Geologists have identified it as a 20 million year old feature. Once a small island and gradually worn flat by atmospheric erosion and then by undersea currents. It was recently thoroughly examined by an oceanography institute who studied the ocean currents that are acting on the formation at the present time. They even conducted sub-surface radar scans to determine the depth of sediments on top of the mount. They found no anomalies that would indicate ancient structures.
        Another company has also studied it and plans to build an experimental underwater laboratory / hotel on it. They also failed to discovered a lost civilization there.
        The grid marks you refer to are located 275 miles away and more than 3 miles deeper than the mount, on the ocean floor. It was never above the surface so it can’t be Atlantis.
        If the seamount had been above the surface as recently as the time of Plato geologists would be able to tell. If there were any validity to your theory a big Hollywood production company would have gathered up an expedition to prove it.
        No, I’m afraid you have discovered nothing, except perhaps a way to get some attention on You Tube.
        You should try looking for Amelia Earhart. At least she really existed.

      • hi Srarch4Atlantis

        Maybe the problem with identifying Atlantis is its possible location along the mid Atlantic ridge. If there was ever a plate shift along that ridge, it would buy or distort everything.

    • Here ids my video that started it all i came across this on the first google earth and it made me study this location more detailed.. I started with the story of plato and his discription and this is what i found…

  23. I would like to make one thing clear about the great flood and underwater cities. A flood would not cause a city to sink. Actually, there is no real geologic mechanism to allow the earth to sink, except over long geologic time periods. There can be some settling such as Venice and Point Fermin California, usually due to building on unstable material or extracting oil. Of course there are some cases of sinkholes opening up in limestone areas but they are very small an never the size of a city. Coastal cities can be flooded by sea level changes but a flood wouldn’t cause them to sink.
    As for the seamounts in the above video, there is no mechanism that would cause an 18,000 foot high volcanic mountain to reduce to 3000 feet (it’s current height above sea bottom). There are thousands of similar mounts around the world and just because the shape is roughly similar to some ancient map drawn by someone who was never even there is certainly not proof that an entire lost civilization lies there.
    You can’t be fooled into believing the Koran is the true word of God, can you? Nor the Book of Mormon probably. Why not? Because you already learned the truth before examining those books. You have firm knowledge on which to base your opinion.
    Well, when it comes to either geology, physics, astronomy or engineering, I have spent 50 years learning the truth. I will not be fooled by charlatans spewing false doctrine to the uninformed. Just as you would warn anyone against believing in the Koran, I am warning others against false science. I am happy to teach everyone what I know but if you don’t trust me, go to a science textbook for verification. DO NOT try to learn science on You-Tube. Its like learning about Jesus from a Muslim. Forget about it.

    • ok. I meant it had a man made structure to it…so maybe it was a sunken city, as someone claimed.

      For me, Atlantis is not that important….it is gone……..

  24. Marianne,
    I have been to many Planet-X sites and they all have different orbital cycles, sizes, discovery dates etc. They can’t seem to agree on which version of the story to go with so I visited NASA who supposedly discovered it in either 1983 or 2003, and a professional astronomer. Here is his link:
    http://news.discovery.com/space/david-morrison-nibiru-2012.html
    As for NASA, they have a huge site and a did a bunch of searches and here is a Q&A on the subject

    Q: Is there a planet or brown dwarf called Nibiru or Planet X or Eris that is approaching the Earth and threatening our planet with widespread destruction?
    A: Nibiru and other stories about wayward planets are an Internet hoax. There is no factual basis for these claims. If Nibiru or Planet X were real and headed for an encounter with the Earth in 2012, astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye. Obviously, it does not exist. Eris is real, but it is a dwarf planet similar to Pluto that will remain in the outer solar system; the closest it can come to Earth is about 4 billion miles.

    As for the water from the flood, if the southern edge of the enclosure bordered the Mediterranean, God could have opened a hole at the bottom and drained it into the sea. Or it could have been transported to the Atlantic using the transporter mechanism, oh no wait, that’s what Captain Kirk would do.
    Hey it would be a lot easier to get rid of than an entire planet full of water. Wouldn’t even take an act of God.

  25. Hey Marianne,
    I scoured the NASA site some more, this time looking for planet 3003UB313. This is what the You-Tube sites call Planet-X or Nibiru. And guess what – I found it. Here is the link:
    http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/orbits/2003ub313.html
    You will note that as of today, it is twice as far away as the orbit of Neptune which would place it at 4 billion miles from earth. It is roughly the size of Pluto. It won’t ever get much closer to earth than it is now and will never be seen by the naked eye or even a large telescope without fast film and a long time exposure.
    I’m afraid the You Tubers have clamped onto a real object and made up a whole lot of crap to get people to visit their web site so they will feel good for some reason. Probably to get advertisers who pay them by the “hit.”
    These are false prophets with a hidden agenda. Don’t fall into their traps just because they have cool graphics and stuff.

    • hi james

      The governments around the world are building DUMBS at high elevations. They have to be at least 600 ft above sea level. The government has moved its center of operations to a mountain area (way above 600 ft) in the mid west. I wish I could remember the former FBI/government agent who published a video on it.

      If they are not expecting a heavenly disaster like a meteor impact, or a nibiru etc, then why do you think they are building them?

      • These by definition are military bases. They are located to survive a nuclear attack. They do not prove that Nibiru exists. They were funded and constructed before the object was discovered. If a giant planet or meteor strikes the earth then all life would probably end so there would be no need for a government, let alone a military base. Maybe they are afraid of the great tribulation. So aren’t we all? There will be plenty of destruction to go around, we don’t need to look for a thousand more on you tube. Do you think that the government knows things about bible prophecy that we don’t? Maybe the world is going to end after all in 2012. If so, Jesus ain’t coming back – he’ll be too late.
        Now I believe there may be certain natural disasters from the opening of the seals. I believe the Cumbra Vieja volcano in the Canary Islands will collapse and send a tidal wave that will wipe out the east coast. The Apophis asteroid may hit the earth in 2029. The Yellowstone or Long Valley super volcanos may erupt and the “Big One” will destroy southern California. These are scientifically proven entities. No one can deny them. Give me something real and I might believe it. Give me BS and I will refute it. That’s all I’m saying.

        • james

          yes, I know they are military bases. I wish I could remember the man’s name. I actually talked to him on the phone this past summer. He was a former intelligence officer, who was speaking about what the government believed would happen. The DUMBS are not just for a nuclear attack. They are intentionally built 1000 ft or greater above sea level, because they expect high floods from an impact. They had orders to have all bases shift command to a new headquarters in I think New Mexico, or Arizona. They expect the east coast to be wiped out. The last contact I had with him, his videos on the internet were being censored, and removed. This is not BS. This is just what the government believes. The basis for that belief could be science, or just the fact that they are all “new age” in DC.

          • I don’t deny that the government has some doomsday protocols and not just in case of nuclear attack. The seed storage vault under the permafrost in Norway is a good example. The question is whether they know of a specific event that is about to happen and are hiding it from everyone. I don’t believe there is such an event at the present time. The possibility of comet and asteroid strikes are all over TV and the movies. I watch every special on natural disasters I can find. You should watch “How the Earth was made” on the history channel. It is based on real geology not speculation. I’m always on the lookout for new possible disasters and I know you do the same thing, just from your blogs. The difference is that I am skeptical until I can prove it has merit where it seems you tend to believe almost everything as long as it sounds possible or plausible. You also tend to make a lot of assumptions that are not fact or logic based which makes it harder for me to explain certain premises to you. But I will keep trying and try to keep you honest as far as the science goes – to the best of my ability. I’ve spent the last 55 years studying many areas of science and engineering and I feel it is time for me to use it for something good, so keep the questions coming and I will try to keep supplying you with honest answers.

            • Awwww. you care about me. 🙂

              I like to think I am open minded, not gullible.

              I like to present stuff that is out there for discussion.

              If the evidence is for, or against, something, I will go with the evidence.

      • If you like DUMBS, here is an article from a very reputable individual. It may open your eyes and give you fodder for one of your other blogs.
        http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4744

        • I agree with what he is saying. I have seen this, and is some of the things the man told me on the phone. Also, a friend’s father was involved in this, and she saw some mysterious, and top secret, things occurring with him.

          • Yikes Marianne,
            I was being totally facetious when I sent you that link! I looked for the craziest, most ludicrous link I could find regarding DUMBS and government conspiracy theories. And this guy takes the cake!
            I have heard these stories my whole life and yet no-one has a lick of real proof – just hearsay. I have seen many TV specials about the subject and the valid ones all came to the same conclusions. And the ones with so-called proof are quite dubious.
            You are basically saying that you believe that the movie(s) Men in Black are based on the truth.
            I have a big problem with that guys story because he indicates that on race is from the Andromeda galaxy, over 2 million light years away. Now even if they could travel at the speed of light, which we agree they can’t, it would have taken them 2 million years and who knows how much longer to find the earth in a galaxy filled with trillions of stars. And not to mention the dozens of other races he mentioned from all over the galaxy. We sure are a popular planet. I wonder why. Maybe humans are delicious. That was the premise of an old twilight zone show called “To Serve Man.” Maybe it is coming true. Maybe the aliens will fight alongside Satan at the battle of Armageddon. Will they be with us in the millennium. Will they be part of God’s elect. Do they have a different God? Will they take the mark of the beast and if they do will they be sent to the lake of fire or do they get a free pass?
            Did God make them in His image? If not, why not?
            Of course no one can answer these questions, not even the bible. I don’t like aliens. They have the power to totally destroy the second coming. The might blast Jesus out of the sky as he returns. I’m sure I can find a web site that claims this will happen but it doesn’t mean it’s true. I can probably find thousands of pseudo-scientific web sites that can prove the bible is a crock and that we are descended from ancient aliens who seeded our planet and built the pyramids. There are probably ancient drawings that show this too, and that would prove it for certain.
            Right?
            Well of course not. So don’t believe everything you read or hear over the telephone. Heck, you won’t believe me when I explain well known scientific facts and principles yet you take these science fiction stories as truth?
            I’ll bet those people all believe that the bible is science fiction so I would be be more careful who I talk to, they may be leading you astray.

  26. After watching the freak waves …
    Think on these verses, because they are related…
    Psa 48:7
     
    Thou breakest the ships of Tarshish with an east wind.

    Psa 104:25
     
    [So is] this great and wide sea, wherein [are] things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

    Psa 104:26
     
    There go the ships: [there is] that leviathan, [whom] thou hast made to play therein.
    Psa 107:23
     
    They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;

    Rev 18:17
     
    For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
    Rev 18:19
     
    And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

    And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    Seb (Lucifer) was the venerated god of the underworld and was represented with a red
    circle (dot) upon its head.
    Like the Shiva of the LHC.
    Look around you and you will notice this (dot) in most logos of commerce …
    even down to the internet (dot net).
    That is a sign of the devil and he is in all corperation and commerce.
    The system of commerce belongs to Babylon.

    The Lord God is warning. ‘Get out of her.’
    The angel of heaven is warning ‘Get out of her’.
    The sun goes down in the underworld.

  27. I think you are taking things a little too far here. I doubt that any of the bible references have to do with freak waves. They simply use the word “sea.”
    And freak waves have been around for millions of years so they are not a special end-time event but who knows, they may increase in numbers in the coming years. So far I have not read of an epidemic of lost ships lately but I will keep it in mind.

    As for the Seb reference, you are combining an Egyptian pagan God with a figure from the bible and calling them the same. Your are doing to Christianity what the Babylonians and the Romans did – adding their pagan God’s and practices to it.
    You have forgotten the second commandment – you are to make no graven images. The Jews never drew pictures of the devil – or God for that matter. And they have no “hell” or underworld. The Egyptians never drew Lucifer. The red dot has nothing to do with Judaism or Christianity. It never had anything to do with Egyptian commerce or Egyptian corporations. Seb was not a Babylonian God. You are connecting things that have no relationship to one another. Your imagination is working overtime and your creativity is running rampant, as usual.
    You are also trying to say that the internet is evil and that commerce is bad yet you are using the internet right now to help spread God’s word and I’m sure you shop for food and clothing etc. using commercial companies and corporations.
    If anyone believes what you say, then you should immediately turn off your computers and toss them in the trash. And start growing your own food too.
    Try not to be so paranoid. Enjoy life! The wave isn’t going to get you.

  28. Freak waves have not only increased in number but also in height and strength.
    In 2007 just 2 years ago they were 70 ft high and did less damage. Today these rogue waves exceeds 120 ft.
    Think of the latest assault ship the USS New York … The bow of the $1 billion ship, built in Louisiana, contains about 7.5 tons of steel from the fallen towers … built slightly stronger?

    And as for my imagination there is nothing wrong there. I am an observer as are many others.

    I suggest for you to enlarge your perception a tad. The internet is not evil in itself.
    And commerce in itself is not evil … It has existed from forever …
    What is evil is the cleverly hidden background by the freemasons.
    This has not escape PHD level researchers.
    And The Lord Almighty knows it too.

    This society throws enough items in the trash … and that is certainly not what I am suggesting.
    I never said that Seb was associated with any religion … but I left this opened for your contemplation. I simply stated that it is a sign of the devil.
    Here is one of a series of lectures. You decide.

  29. RE the linear grid feature East of the Cruiser Tablemount visible on Google Earth. The explanation offered by James Giordano that they are the result of dragging objects on lines from ships is somewhat unbelievable given that by measurement on GE the lines themselves are approximately 1km (or more) wide (with the overall grid itself approximately 120km x 160km). To make a 1km wide trench (deep ebnough to be visible on GE) I would guess (logically) that one would need a 1km wide object, towed on a very long line from a ship, which would appear to be exceedingly unlikely considering the weight of such an object etc etc.

    I am just making this point without reference to anything else on this website, as I found it (this website) after trying to find out about the “grid” like feature on the seafloor which I discovered on GE. Dont ask me about the rest of the stuff on this site. Incidentally, there appear to be a few more linear features visible on the seafloor around this general area on GE.

    So, Mr Giordano, how do you explain the fact that the lines are 1000 meters wide???????????

    I am not saying anything other than that they appear to be rather interesting and apparently unexplained as yet.

    Thanks and all the best, Danwhh

    • According to officials at GoogleEarth the lines are from a recent exploration crew looking for a wreck. No details on the size etc, but it would be a clincher to see an older image in which the lines do not appear. That would settle it if anyone wants to take the time to check it out. One thing is certain – at a depth of -17,000 feet and sinking, these lines were never above the surface.
      We need to find out who mad this mess so they can come clean it up before it causes any more controversy. Amen.

  30. RE the Cruiser Tablemount area. A bit of searching on the internet yielded this site:

    http://www.aegynn.com/index.html

    Check out the info on the “Origin” project, and check the proposed location for it. Cruiser Tablemount.

    And, (as a bit of an aside), The Parasol corporation? What would Milla think? (hahahaha)…………..

    All the best, Danwhh

    • Interesting idea. They could have used the Hawaiian island tablemounts but I guess they wanted to avoid the taxes. 🙂

  31. Thanks James for your reply. I would have a few questions for the Officials at Google Earth, no doubt they get all sorts.

    All the best, Danwhh

  32. PS about the website:

    Appears to be some sort of art fiction, with video game/”Shared universe” (see Parasol Corporation HP Lovecraft Cthulhu Mythos type of connections, not to mention “Parasol” like “Umbrella” as per “Resident Evil”). Silly me, but with the effort these people put into their “art”/work it took me a while to work this much out, not instantly recognizing the clues as I would have, had I been into that sort of thing.

    SORRY!!!

    All the best, Danwhh

  33. I am the author of the atlantis video. i am suprised to see were this video has gone since it was published there is an island volcano just above shaped like a ring that exploded and left a crater just above the great metor table mount,, before you rule out this area as not being atlantis.. i think it deserves more research possably a manned mission there to prove it once and for all..Search4Atlantis,

  34. http://www.youtube.com/user/search4atlantis

    • OK, I just watched your video and you have just dug yourself a big hole.
      I read the account of the SS Jesmond from the web site you copied it from. You conveniently left out the following:

      Several reporters examined Robson’s unusual finds and were infomormed by him that he planned to present the artifacts to the British Museum. Unfortunately for Atlantian research, however, the log of the Jesmond was destroyed during the London blitz of September 1940, along with the offices of the Jesmond’s owners. There is no record at the British Museum of their having received Robson’s collection. Although it is possible that the artifacts are files in the capacious attics and basements common to all museums. Nor was the island ever heard of again, existing only in the sworn testimony of the captain and crew of the Jesmond.

      So we can’t say for sure that the crew really saw a smoking mountain, or if it was a nearby volcanic island such as Cumbre Vieja (still active today) or if they were just the You-Tubers of their day.

      Now beside the fact that Atlantis was supposed to have been destroyed thousands of years ago, not 125 years ago, you can not link the Cruiser seamount to the island reported by the crew of the Jesmond by any means and I will prove it.

      For a comparison I will refer to Krakatoa, the famous volcano in the Java trait that erupted in 1883. Now Krakatoa sat in only 200 feet of water and was only 2,500 feet tall. When it erupted it produced one of the most violent eruptions in recorded history, being herd almost 2000 miles away and producing tsunamis all around the Pacific that killed tens of thousands.
      But the biggest tip-off was the ash and dust cloud that encircled the entire earth for three years, darkening the skies and dropping temperatures world-wide. In the US the following year temperatures in the 20’s were recorded on the fourth of July.

      The island completely vanished from sight although by 1927 further eruptions built a new island (called Baby Krakatoa) on the same site.

      OK, now lets look at the Cruiser seamount. It is currently over 6000 feet or more underwater. It is 140 miles long (compared to Krakatoa’s 5.6 miles). The total amount of material that would have been blasted away from a “Cruiser Island/Volcano” would have been tens of thousands of times more than Krakatoa. For an explosion that large it would have dwarfed that of Krakatoa and it would have surely been noticed not just by Africans and Europeans but the entire planet.

      Remember that vulcanism is a mountain-building process, not a mountain destroying one. Yes, on occasion the top blows off a volcano but it is due to magma welling up inside from deep inside the earth. So while the very top of an island might be blown away, the magma that caused the eruption would still be there, below the surface. The Cruiser seamount is far too deep for this to have happened and the features are well worn and covered in sediment, not fresh like a 125 year old event.
      Your theory totally lacks any scientific credibility. Your You-Tube biography lists your occupation as “scientist and arceologist.”
      I don’t believe this for one second as a true archaeologist would know how to spell his occupation correctly.
      And a true scientist would apply the “Scientific Method” to his research, not just paste some articles from pseudoscience tabloid websites together and call it “proof.”
      Get a science book Dude, then maybe you’ll get a clue to the truth.

  35. i have started a blog here at wordpress.com It will give you a litt insite on my theories and some video footage as well to better explain what exactly gives me this idea so please check it out.. and please be understanding of my beliefs im also trying to help find it same as everyone else. http://search4atlantis.wordpress.com/

  36. Atlantis was here once but no more forever. This lost city I do know and seen and touched in vision. I was there witnessed what truly happened to Atlantis ” lost city “..
    Those people I watched before my eyes in vision dressed in white gowns with gold belts and braclet around their arms.. some wear colorful gowns as well.. Beautiful city.. so incredible that I cannot explain details unless I draw it.. but forbidden to do so althou… It did have the gateway that everyone can walk thru to travel other planets and I am not kidding at all.. Simply because I dared to walk to test and found it very true.. Foolish prideful people got a bit too greedy and using powers for the wrong reasons.. that provoked God to his wrath that caused the distance from Atlantis a volanco.. that blew and shake so voilently.. enough to shift the ground and buried the lost city forever with tsuamsi and volanco all together.. VERY FEW escaped with their lives.. ALL others died….

    Everyone can look for that lost city but will never find it again.. and that is a very real reason.. It does have a gateway.. And no one is allowed to discover it.. God have his reasons. And everyone else should stop attempting to boast one way or the other.. It will do no one any good to bicker..

    Forgive me for being bold by speaking up.. I listened long enough and kept shaking my head in disagreement every time I read regarding to Atlantis.. Because it was shown to me long ago and it still in my memory as fresh as a new dawn day.. So, in a way, I would say kindly… NO ONE can find it.. GOD have his reasons.. and that’s final in his decisions.. NOT ours.. If HE wants us to find it.. He would have shift and lift it to reveal to us all.. but … He didn’t.. means ” NO ” is his true answer. *shrug*
    Just let it rest 🙂 I can’t believe that everyone worry over that lost city and I understood why God buried it for good.. I don’t blame His choices at all.. I back God 100 percent on his reasons. 🙂
    Blessings and have a wonderful July weekend with family and friends.. Stay safe and drive wisely.. 😉

  37. I just heard that the lost city of Atlantis has been found. It is located in the Pegasus galaxy. Scientists from around the world are able to visit the site via the Stargate facility at the Cheyenne Mountain Complex at an undisclosed location in the western U.S.
    So there you go.

  38. Hi Lyndsey,
    The “it” you have been seeing lately in the western sky is indeed the planet Venus.
    It has passed it’s maximum angle from the sun and is now heading between us and the sun. As it gets closer to the sun (visually) it will lose its brightness and set sooner and sooner after sunset until it gets too near the sun to still be visible. Soon after that it will begin to appear on the other side of the sun, at sunrise and this process will be repeated, in reverse.
    Just so you know.

    • Are you sure? LOL
      Now I “heard” that its either a) a star heralding the coming of the Maitreya or b) planet x or c) the new jerusalem

  39. I am making fun but I really love Einsteins’ theory and I know with G-D anything is POSSIBLE! If we can imagine it…..

  40. http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae283.cfm

  41. And when we get to Heaven, we will all say “dear G-D in Heaven, I feel so stupid”…LOL

  42. These two were transmuted by G-d to be in Heaven. They could be the two witnesses written about in Revalations.

    The 100th chapter in the Book of Enoch reads about the last war where Christ defeats all who oppose him.

    Enoch states he was born within the first week. The seventh week the repropateness of the world will be overwhelming. I believe we are in the seventh week now, and we should see these two show up soon.

  43. One more thing. Enoch walk with G-d, and was no more. Could it be, this is an example of the taking away of Christians from earth before the wrath of G-d is poured out Paul taked about? Enoch is Noah’s Great Grandfather. Three years before the wrath once the church is removed?

    • hi Leatherneck

      Thought question for both of us.

      Do you how many years lapsed between Enoch’s “rapture” and Noah’s flood?

      • 531 years is the suggestion I find on the Internet. So, from Rapture to Tribulation 531 years? I doubt it.

        Enoch is Noah’s Great Grandfrather, so three generations before the Tribulation after the Rapture? I’m just guessing, but I do think this is a kind of suggestion the Bible gives us about the future.

  44. Jesus(Soul of Jesus and Holy Sprit) is now in Heavan with Enoch(Soul and Sprit) and Elijah(Soul and Sprit).

    1 Corinthians 15
    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    Is this the meaning of (Body,soul,sprit)of the last generation on earth—>then Body will be vanished and only (soul and sprit) will be exists and join with the raised dead people(only SOUL and sprit) and see the Jesus(Soul of Jesus and Holy Sprit) who will come from Heaven at last minute.
    Is it the Rapture told in Thessalonians ?

    • would love to know what the original translation was of the word “changed”

      • Hi Lyndsey,

        I read your posts and more than anyone else, you make me smile! I am happy to do you a favor. I went to my newest favorite site http://interlinearbible.org and looked it up for you. I was so jazzed to find this site. Now I can find out for myself!!!

        Original Word: ἀλλάσσω
        Part of Speech: Verb
        Transliteration: allassó
        Phonetic Spelling: (al-las’-so)
        Short Definition: I change, alter
        Definition: I change, alter, exchange, transform.

  45. hi Sunimal

    I think the soul lives forever. At death, it “sleeps.” But it is to rise with the body at the last resurrection.

    1Th 4:13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    This sounds like it is describing the same event as 1 Cor 15.

    • There are a number of differences

      1Thess. 1Cor.
      a trump is blown the Last Trump is blown
      the dead in Christ are raised just referred to as the dead
      the live people are caught up they are changed
      Jesus Himself gathers His people the angels gather them
      doesn’t specify that happens in the twinkling of an eye

      They may be the same event but it is likely it is different. I think the church is raptured in 1 thess. and the tribulation saints are gathered in 1 cor. The church raptured on Pentecost and the saints on Feast of Trumpets.

      Enoch was born on and taken to heaven on Pentecost. Ruth, the gentile bride was married on Pentecost. I used to believe that the rapture happens on the Feast of Trumpets but once I noticed the differences in these verses I began to think that there may be 2 seperate events, I took another look at the feasts and harvests. Just as the crops have different harvests, I believe there will be different harvest of people.

      • The formatting on my reply was lost as soon as I posted it. It is so garbled, it doesn’t make much sense. I will try again without anything “fancy”.

        1Thess.
        a trump is blown-not Last Trump
        the dead in Christ are raised
        the live people are caught up
        Jesus Himself gathers His people
        doesn’t specify time/how-no twinkle

        1Cor.
        the Last Trump is blown
        just referred to as the dead-not dead in Christ
        they are changed- not caught up
        the angels gather them
        happens in the twinkling of an eye

        • It seem here that you are trying to make a logical argument in order to separate theses two sets of verses into two separate events.
          But I would like you to consider another train of logic. Or perhaps you might call it common sense.
          First of all, both of these letters were written by the same person, Paul. They were perhaps written years apart, certainly he didn’t use a copy machine to shoot off the same letter to both churches nor did he pull up the original file from his hard drive. So we would expect his words to be a bit different. For example, he might have considered that in his second letter that the term “twinkling of an eye” was too last week to use again. So why should we expect him to? Even the gospels don’t exactly agree word for word, so it is illogical to expect Paul to be perfectly consistent.
          But more than that, I contend that if Paul knew of two totally separate events, that he would have made that fact quite clear in all his writings. Is there a single letter he wrote where he mentions both events separately? Now we would expect him to mention the second coming and the beginning of Christ’s reign on earth – “Thy kingdom come.” That is the only one mentioned in the Book of Revelation.
          So why then in some letters would he only talk about the rapture, but then forget to mention His return to the earth to rule? Now that is what is illogical!
          And remember, for 1800 years nobody ever interpreted them as separate events. Then all of a sudden with the “vision” of a Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald and the preaching of John Darby it became a popular interpretation. Really? With all of the religious intellectuals throughout the centuries it took the dream of a young girl to set the word of God straight? Around the same time the book of Mormon was supposed to have done the same thing.
          In these end times we are forewarned to beware of many false prophets. We all need to be very careful when it comes to prophecy. I tend to err on the side of caution. Many people prefer to say – I’m not going to prepare for that silly tribulation or the mark of the beast – I won’t even be here! If that gives you comfort, at least for the time being, then so be it and good luck with that.
          As for me, I’ll be ready – just in case.
          God bless.

          • Hi James,
            All of these differences may not mean anything. It is possible the two sets of verses are referring to the same event. But it is also possible they are talking about two separate events. Many Jews reject Jesus as Messiah because they expected Him to come once and fulfill all prophecy at that time. They missed something because of their preconceived notions. I am just opening up the possibility that we may be missing something too.
            There are multiple Raptures mentioned in the Bible. Enoch was Raptured. Elijah was Raptured. Jesus was Raptured. John was Raptured (in 2Cor. he was caught up or Raptured to heaven). The two witnesses in Revelation are Raptured.
            There are at least 5 Raptures besides the Rapture of the Church at the end of the church age. It is a myth to say there is only one Rapture. (or none) There are at least 6-7.
            As far as the notion that the rapture is a new teaching, is false. Below is an example of key passages from Ephraem’s text, written about 373 AD (translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, Tyndale Theological Seminary)
            St. Ephraem the Syrian on the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World
            Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains….We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled… Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? … Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord.

            Also, I don’t think the tribulation nor mark are silly. I am fully convinced that they are real, horrible and coming soon. I have prepared my home and family as best I can for this event in case I am wrong in my understanding. In either case, I am placing my hope in Jesus. He will either keep me from or protect me through the tribulation. But, I think that the last 3 ½ years are called “Jacob’s Trouble” for a reason-the church won’t be there.

            Blessings to you too!

            • Hi Malia,
              Well it doesn’t seem like this guy’s interpretation ever caught on, perhaps because he also thought he was in the end times and he was actually 1,600 years too early. That is a common mistake even the apostles made. I think the biggest mistakes being made today are not recognizing fulfilled prophecy and are instead looking for signs of false prophecy such as a New World Order and an RFID chip etc.
              The early rapture falls into this category as well. It seems like the Left Behind books and movies have managed to completely change how most Christians imagine the end times. The only problem is that almost all of it is wrong. It makes a cool story, but it just isn’t going to happen.
              Of course, it’s all a matter of interpretation, so this debate will continue perhaps thru the tribulation itself. Only time will tell. Perhaps 500 years from now after nothing has happened someone will look back at this blog and think we were as premature as St. Ephraem.
              Bless… 🙂

        • Hi Malia,

          I was just wondering where you received your information which allowed for you to make the following statement;
          “Enoch was born on and taken to heaven on Pentecost”?

          I don’t believe that there is anything within scripture that would validate that claim.
          First, I believe that you would be referring to the second Enoch, and not the one that was born of Cain, (Gen.4:17.) but rather to Jared which was approximately 500 plus years later.(Gen.5:18.)

          There doesn’t appear to be anything within scripture regarding either Enoch’s birth or being raptured, (the Hebrew transliterated word “laqach” having the same connotations as the Greek harpazo, or the Greek “metatithemi” which is utilized in Hebrews 11:5.), with dates.

          As well, the it is recognized within Jewish culture, that the very first Shavuot/Pentecost was at Mt Sinai, when Moses received the stone tablets and Torah from God which was hundreds of years after Enoch was translated.

          I have the same question regarding the Marriage of Boaz and Ruth?
          Though I admit that there appears to be more information provided within scripture, (Ruth 1:22., 2:2, 21, 23. 3:2 etc.) to suggest that perhaps it was close to Shavuot agriculturally, as being the time when the first fruits were harvested and brought to the Temple, and is known as Hag ha-Bikkurim (the Festival of the First Fruits). However, though more supportive, other than that, there doesn’t appear to be anything definitive to substantiate this claim.

          So I am interested to hear as to how you arrived at this premise?

          I do appreciate the way that you analyze the subtle differences between 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18. though. These differences may certainly lead one to believe that Paul is indeed speaking of two separate events. However, I believe that Paul had been revealing a new mystery that had been revealed to him by Yeshua when he had been caught up to heaven himself, (2 Corinthians 12:2-4.)
          So when he was speaking of these things to different churches, within different epistles, though the words or phrases may have subtle differences, I believe that topic consisted of the same subject regarding the harpazo or rapture.

          Just my thoughts.
          Thanks for any response you may provide.

          Be Blessed

          • Alienated
            I think malia got much of the info from the book of enoch. Funny you came to this page, as I just read it yesterday. It is a “unique” theory.

            • Hi Dru,

              It is an interesting theory to suggest that the rapture will occur on Shavuot and that the Second Coming will occur on Yom Teru’ah, (Feast of Trumpets).
              I have looked into this in the past myself.

              What is interesting, is that it is Jewish tradition for the book of Ruth to be read on Shavuot, (perhaps this is how Malia arrived at that premise), and that the following occurances also took place on Shavuot as well.

              – God appeared to Moses on the third day. Exodus 19:11.
              – (He will raise us up on the third day. Hosea 6:1-3.)

              – God came down in the clouds. Exodus 19:16.
              – (He is returning in the clouds. Acts 1:9-11.)

              – God’s voice was a trumpet. Exodus 19:16.
              – (The trumpet of God will sound. 1 Thessalonians 4:16.)

              – God answered Moses by a voice. Exodus 19:19.
              – (The voice of the archangel. 1 Thessalonians 4:16.)

              – God came down in a fire. Exodus 19:18.
              – (Yeshua returns in a fire. 1 Thessalonians 1:7-10.)

              – God descended from heaven. Exodus 19:20.
              – (Yeshua will descend from heaven. 1 Thessalonians 4:17.)

              – God called Moses up. Exodus 19:20.
              – (Believers will go up. 1 Thessalonians 4:17.)

              Something to ponder over still perhaps?

              Be Blessed

              • Alienated
                Marianne had recomended someone above to read the book of enoch. It was an “interesting” read w/ regard to our discussions on the “restrainer” page. It was taken out of the cannon supposedly by the pharisees and was quoted by Jude in his epistle. So the people at the time of Christ were quite familiar with the topics therein. In particular the distinction btwn the “elect” and the “saints” was fascinating.

                I am still reading it, curious to know if you have any thoughts.

          • Hi A-

            The most recent place I found this info is at http://www.khouse.org/articles/1999/53/

            I have a rather lengthy post to add but I will tag it on the end to make better use of the room.

            I appreciate your questions. When you’ve been mulling something over for a long time and have gotton use to the idea -having settled pieces of it in your own mind -you forget the steps that you took to get there.

            You are right, there is no scripture that can diectly support my claim but there is none that contradicts it either. If there were, I would have to revise my theory.

            Please check out my next post and tell me what you think. This is really the first time I have put my theory out there, for all to see…If you know of anything that blows holes in it, I am open.

  46. I heard somewhere that G-d always gives a preview of what is to come…..ex: Jonah and whale/Jesus death and resurrection……so here is a thought using Elijah being caught up and then 3 years later being the flood….

    2010/2011-Peace Treaty/Tribulation begins
    2014/2015-Peace Treaty canceled/AC revealed/Rapture/Solar and Lunar Eclipses on all the Feast days
    2017/2018-G-d’s wrath

    • And i think that Enoch and Elijah still have their bodies since they did not “see” death.

      Hebrews 11:5
      2 kings 2:11

      • I agree. Perhaps, these are the two witnesses sent by G-d in the end times to put the fear of G-d into the human earth system.

        • I’d think they would certainly qualify! And the neat thing about Elijah even being a candidate for God taking him ‘home’ w/o death, is that he really didn’t end all that well; but he had a heart that was hot for God! OT grace, at work!!

  47. Matthew 17
    11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
    ————————————————————
    So Elijah has already come as John the Baptist.Then he will come again as one witness at the end of this world.This means Soul is same for three times, but bodies are different or with different names.Last witness name(Elijah’s new name) is not yet identified.If these things will happen before 2020, then these two witnesses are allready in this world and not yet identified.Then who is the Anti-Christ(Muslims called Dudjal,666)??? Wisdom is necessary to identify ? So all of us should pray God/Holy Sprit to give this Wisdom to some of you in near future.

    • You hit on something very interesting Sunimal. In the book of Mary magdeline, Mary is talking about what Jesus explained to her about Matter…It went over my head a bit, but I got the impression that she was talking about what some would refer to as reincarnation-a taboo among most faiths-christian faith in particular. When Jesus rose again, he wasn’t recognized at first by his disciples…why is that? If Elijah came back as John the Baptist….different name and body then what do we call that…

      • And angels take on different forms as well….and G-d talks about making an army out of dry bones….

  48. Marianne
    You recomended above to someone to read the book of enoch. what are your thoughts on the subject?

    • Hi Dru,

      If Marianne doesn’t mind, I’ll throw in my 2 cents worth.

      It’s a great read.

      Jude references Enoch and validates his prophecies. ” Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” Jude 1:14,15. NKJV.

      So Enoch’s writings are supported by scripture.

      If you don’t have a link, here is one for you.

      http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/

      Be Blessed

    • good read….which is why I recommended it….

      confirms a lot

      fallen angels….before the flood.

  49. Hi Dru,
    Too Funny.
    I posted the above while you were writing a reply above about the same thing. lol
    I’ll have to back and read the book again then, before answering your question.

    Be Blessed

    • The readings for Shavuot are Exodus 19–20 (the giving of the Law), Ezekiel 1 (the prophet’s vision of God’s glory) and the scroll of Ruth.
      Below, I have taken excerpts from those readings that seem to echo each other along with Revelation 4, add the book of Ruth and I think there are enough similarities to make a compelling case for the rapture taking place in Rev 4 on Shavuot.

      Chuck Missler makes an even better argument for Rev. 4 than this. Check out his line by line teaching on Revelation. It is well worth the time!

      Exodus19:16-19

      On the morning of the third day there were thunders and lightnings and a thick cloud on the mountain and a very loud trumpet blast, so that all the people in the camp trembled. Then Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet God, and they took their stand at the foot of the mountain. Now Mount Sinai was wrapped in smoke because the LORD had descended on it in fire. And the smoke of it went up like the smoke of a kiln, and the whole mountain trembled greatly and as the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him in thunder

      Ezekiel 1:1, 4, 26-28

      In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. As I looked, behold, a stormy wind came out of the north, and a great cloud, with brightness around it, and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire, as it were gleaming metal. And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with a human appearance. And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking

      Revelation 4 (New International Version, ©2011)

      The Throne in Heaven
      1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. 4 Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. In front of the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits[a] of God. 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.

      (again, foiled by formatting-no bold or underlines…you’ll have to find the echos for yourself)

      • Hi Malia,

        Yep, lol, You will figure out that if you want to bring attention to a specific verse or passage, you’ll either need to put them in quotations or brackets.
        Bold font or underlines don’t,(if you’ll excuse the pun) translate well. lol.

        As far as seeing something that can “blow holes” into this theory, at this time I can present none?
        Though the majority of Messianic views regarding the rapture tend to focus on the fall feasts and Yom Teru’ah as being the time that this will be fulfilled, that doesn’t make it necessarily right.

        (Personally, I have always found it frustrating that there isn’t an “answer section” in the back pages of the Bible. lol.)

        I’ll check out Chuck’s K-house link that you provided, and see what his theory is, and then get back to you about it.
        Nan, (Chucks wife) did send me a copy of one of their books though a couple of years ago, “The Kingdom, Power and Glory”
        which was a very interesting read, except that my conclusions differed from theirs significantly. So it might take some time to be a Berean with respects to what Chuck say’s.

        BTW, have you read any of the information that was posted on the rapture page here? You may find some of it valuable in your studies? The more brains in search of the truth, the better.

        Later then,

        Be Blessed

        • I just read it and there is a lot to take in. It will take me a little time to chew on it. But I will get back to you. I really value your research and humility to be corrected.

          Thank you Marrianne for providing this forum for people to freely bounce their ideas off from one another!

          • Thanks Malia,

            Regarding my humility in being corrected. If that is referring to a post about the “one taken and one left” on the rapture page, where Don presented his opposing view point in a post,… well his frankly just made more logical sense. So I differed to what he had stated as being more than likely correct, and recanted mine.
            The whole point in this forum as far as I’m concerned, is not to prove that one’s view happens to be right, but to actually discover what the truth is.
            Go figure?

            Be Blessed

    • Alienated
      w/regard to elect vs saints look at enoch 56:3. I do not know how I never heard anything about this book growing up in the church. It seems to make some of what is in revalation “clearer”, if you know what I mean. Its like revalation was written to people who had some of the understandings from this book in their world view.

      I am done reading the first 60 chapters. I am curious, if anyone has anything negative to say about the book, or why it was not included in the cannon? I know early church fathers were aware of it.

      • Hi Dru,

        Well to answer your question based upon my understanding, the reason that you never heard about this book in Church, is more than likely simply because it isn’t canonical. Therefore it isn’t regarded as having any legitimate merit, and is not taught within any Bible College.

        What most if not all of the Pastor’s/ Minister’s what have you are taught regarding Genesis 6, is that what are referred to as the “sons of God”, are simply those of mankind that are from the lineage of Seth. (see 3 below.)

        Which unfortunately doesn’t explain at all, as to why their genetic makeup has somehow deviated to the point that now all of a sudden, this lineage is producing giants? Nor does it explain the terminology “nephilim”?

        The three primary views on the identity of the “sons of God” are;
        1) they were fallen angels,
        2) they were powerful human rulers,
        3) they were godly descendants of Seth intermarrying with wicked descendants of Cain.

        Giving weight to the first theory is the fact that in the Old Testament the phrase “sons of God” (ben elohiym) always refers to angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7).

        Those that disagree with the above, will then present Matthew 22:30, which indicates that angels do not marry.
        However they fail to recognize that when Yeshua stated these words, the context was referring to being not only in the realm after the resurrection itself, but that of heaven also. These fallen angels came down to earth.

        The weakness of views 2) and 3) is that ordinary human males marrying ordinary human females does not account for why the offspring were “giants” or “heroes of old, men of renown.” Further, why would God decide to bring the flood on the earth (Genesis 6:5-7) when God had never forbade powerful human males or descendants of Seth to marry ordinary human females or descendants of Cain to begin with?

        The oncoming judgment of Genesis 6:5-7 is clearly linked to resolve what took place in Genesis 6:1-4. Only the perverse marriage of fallen angels with human females would seem to justify such a harsh judgment.

        There are other examples that would appear to substantiate that in taking on human form, angels can posses all of the attributes of physical form as well. In Genesis 19:1-5, the men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels who were with Lot. As well in Jude 1:6, he states, “And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day.” which would appear to confirm what the book of Enoch has to say.

        A side bar to all of this to me, is that this also must mean that women themselves, are a brand new and wonderful creation that has never existed before whatsoever. Neither in the heavenly realms, nor anywhere else in the Universe that God created. They are so special and unique in fact, that they caused those that were once eternal and Holy, to be enticed enough to fall from that state. No wonder we, as mere mortal men lose our minds over them? (Don’t let that go to your head girls. lol.)

        Regarding your question about the “saints and elect” in chapter 56:3. It appears that the word elect, or “chosen of God” is not necessarily always a good thing. For in the following where Enoch poses the question as to where and who these angels of punishment are going, he receives the response of, “And he said unto me: ‘To their elect and beloved ones, that they may be cast into the chasm of the abyss of the valley.” Which would be of course referring to the fallen angels, and their children. The rest of that particular chapter, is referring in my opinion, as to what takes place after the reign of the Millenial Kingdom.

        I think that it is time to go back and read through the whole thing myself as well. Because just like when reading scripture, you always seem to glean something new.

        Be Blessed

      • Hi Dru,

        The only thing I have heard that is negative, is that the book is not Scripture. However, that doesn’t mean it isn’t true. I just means it wasn’t inspired or written by God himself. I have only done a quick once over with it but paln to revisit it more closely.

  50. Hi Malia,

    Actually that was rather a short article from Chuck, and it definitely has merit as being a possibility.
    As I posted above, (June 27th. 8:19pm) there are some striking simularities to take into consideration. As well as your posting of Exodus, Ezekiel and Revelation above as being compelling too.

    More study is required. On the rapture page that I suggested for you to read, I posted a study regarding the Ten Virgins parable that I am still working on, and utilized another authors interpretation of the marriage between Boaz and Ruth in it as well. So it does appear to be connected in many ways.

    Be Blessed

    Dru,

    I’ll try to get to the book of Enoch later tonight, and get back to you tomorrow. (You read 60 chapters today? Oh brother, you need a life. lol)

    Be Blessed Dru.

  51. Hey Dru & Malia,

    I found this pretty interesting. Chapter XLV…….

    “1. And this is the Second Parable concerning those who deny the name of the dwelling of the holy ones and the Lord of Spirits.”

    ( So this would be referring to those that deny the name of Yeshua, and of God the Father.)

    “2. And into the heaven they shall not ascend,”

    (Could this be referring to not only in their spirits not going to heaven when they die, but also possibly as referring to the rapture?)

    “And on the earth they shall not come:”

    ( So I see this following section of verse 2, as being those that will return with Yeshua at His second coming.
    Because if you are man and a sinner and deny the name, you have to be on the earth at this time. So to me this suggests that this is a return of those that “did not deny the name”, and that had previously been on the earth.)

    “Such shall be the lot of the sinners Who have denied the name of the Lord of Spirits, Who are thus preserved for the day of suffering and tribulation.”

    ( This is the rest of verse 2, and to me suggests that the lot of the sinners who have denied the name of Yeshua and of God, will not ascend to heaven, neither will they return at a future time from there, but because of their denial, are preserved to be subjected to suffering during the tribulation.)

    “3. On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory And shall try their works, And their places of rest shall be innumerable. And their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine Elect Ones, And those who have called upon My glorious name:

    (This is after the tribulation. Here I see that Yeshua has returned with all of the Church, (Jew and Gentile) as well as all that had martyred themselves during the tribulation and those that did not take the mark of the beast, as well as the 144,000, which all fall under the category of “elect” that will rule and reign with Him in the Millenial Kingdom. I see the, “And shall try their works” as being the “Sheep and Goat Judgment”.)

    “4. Then will I cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them. And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing and light.”

    “5. And I will transform the earth and make it a blessing: And I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it: But the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon.”

    ( First this is what God says in Isaiah 65:17. “For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.” So here I see that sinners and evil doers will not be allowed on the earth during Yeshua’s reign. To me this suggests that they are the “tares that will be taken, that all the birds shall feast upon”.)

    “6. For I have provided and satisfied with peace My righteous ones And have caused them to dwell before Me: But for the sinners there is judgment impending with Me, So that I shall destroy them from the face of the earth.”

    ( So this appears to possibly confirm the above that all sinners will be destroyed. However that begs the question………..
    “Who is left to rule and reign over then?”

    Earlier in the book Enoch appears to make a distinction between the “elect” and the “righteous”as being separate groups. I think that the righteous could be the remnant of Israel, and all of those that chose to follow Yeshua during the time of the tribulation. (Those that are referred to as being “Saints” in the Book of Revelation, since the Church itself was raptured pre-tribulation.) These would then be the Sheep within that judgment.

    Isaiah 65 is clearly about God choosing a new people in the future to be His. Yet at the same time, He states that He will keep a remnant. (verses 8 and 9), and verse 21 indicates that they will live and build house during this reigning time. There has to be some type of mankind left that is allowed to dwell on earth to be ruled by Yeshua after the tribulation.)

    Just some thoughts while reading through this book again.

    If you can blow some holes in this, let me know. lol.

    Be Blessed

    • Hey Fellas,

      Y’all have flown right past me. This has been a busy week for me, my son just turned 5 and that event has consumed most of my free time. I have a lot of catching up to do!

      • Hi ya’s Malia,

        Well Happy Birthday to your little tyke. 🙂

        But you didn’t ask us to wait for ya? So being guy’s, off we went.
        I know, I know, we are all so insensitive. lol.

        So come on gurl…. Catch up!
        (that is not to be confused with “caught up”)

        Later

  52. Chapter XLVII

    “1. And in those days shall have ascended the prayer of the righteous, And the blood of the righteous from the earth before the Lord of Spirits.

    2. In those days the holy ones who dwell above in the heavens Shall unite with one voice And supplicate and pray [and praise, And give thanks and bless the name of the Lord of Spirits] On behalf of the blood of the righteous which has been shed, And that the prayer of the righteous may not be in vain before the Lord of Spirits, That judgement may be done unto them, And that they may not have to suffer for ever.

    3. In those days I saw the Head of Days when He seated himself upon the throne of His glory, And the books of the living were opened before Him: And all His host which is in heaven above and His counselors stood before Him,

    4 And the hearts of the holy were filled with joy; Because the number of the righteous had been offered, And the prayer of the righteous had been heard, And the blood of the righteous been required before the Lord of Spirits.”

    Above I see another distinction made between the “elect and righteous”, and some direct correlations to verses that are in the Book of Revelation.
    The context of the above in my opinion, regarding the phrase, “and in those days”, is referring to the time during the tribulation and the martyring of the Saints.

    Verse (1) above correlates with Rev. 6:10.

    Verse (2) above correlates with Rev. 5:8. and the prayer is verses 9, 10.
    And clearly by the content of that prayer, it would be describing the Church that has been raptured already, and is represented above in verse (2) as being “the holy ones who dwell above in the heavens”.
    It is my opinion that the Church that has been raptured, is identified in Rev. as being the 24 elders. This would consist of the 12 apostles, and an additional 12 of significant Old Covenant individuals.

    Verse (3) above correlates with Rev. 4:2-4.
    Though nothing specifically is mentioned regarding the “book(s) of living” within those passages of Rev. as they are in verse (3) above, we know that all that are raptured will most certainly be in one of those books.
    The passage above may be referring as to when the church, as individuals, stands before the Bema seat of the Lord?

    Verse (4) above correlates with Rev. 7:9-17. where the full body that is comprised of 3 different groups, (the Church, the Martyrs, and the 144,000 that will rule and reign with Yeshua during the Millenial Kingdom as kings and priests) is now complete.

    It is my opinion, that when the Church is raptured, that completes “The Age of Grace”.
    The Holy Spirit returns with those that are raptured, and that now atonement again, returns back to blood.
    Hence the above in verse (4), “And the blood of the righteous been required before the Lord of Spirits.”

    For those that are not aware of some of the interesting tid-bits regarding Revelation, the word “Church” in Greek is “Ekklesia” and the last time that this word is utilized in the whole of the book, (other than for a quick reference in Rev.22:16), is in Rev.3:22. From that point forward a distinction is made to now utilizing the word “Saints”, or “Hagios”. (The same distinction that Enoch appears to make between the “elect and the righteous”.)
    Another, though rather innocuous word, would be the word “door”. We see in Matthew 25:1-13 regarding the ten wise virgins and the ten foolish virgins that some were able to enter the door and proceed to the wedding, and some found that the door was shut.(Matthew 25:10) Well the last time that the word “door” is ever utilized at all in the whole of the book of Revelation, is in verse 4:1, where John saw a door open in heaven, and heard a voice like a trumpet saying to him, “Come up here.”

    Another little tid-bit which leads me to believe that the Holy Spirit will return with the Church at the end of the Age of Grace, is Rev.5:6, where it is written that Yeshua (before He opens the Scroll of the seals), is there, “having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.”
    This implies to me that those “seven Spirits” are with Him in heaven.

    If one researches 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 in depth they will discover something interesting.
    If one counts the Spiritual gifts that Paul mentions, they will see that there are 9 in total.
    However, if one investigates them more thoroughly in the original Greek, they will discover the following;

    The first 2 gifts that Paul mentions are wisdom and knowledge, or “Sophia”, Strong’s 4678, and “Gnosis”, Strong’s 1108 respectively. Both refer to the wisdom or knowledge of “man”.

    Gnosis is far different that “Epignosis”. Gnosis is limited to man and his knowledge or intellect, where Epignosis is having a precise and correct knowledge of things that are ethical and Divine. The remaining 7 gifts that Paul mentions are those that are Divine in nature, bestowed upon a believer through only the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore there are (7) seven Spirits of God that correlate with (7) Spiritual gifts.

    Just some thoughts to ponder over.

    Be Blessed

  53. FOOT NOTE

    Regarding Revelation, and the word “Ekklesia” and it disappearance in the text and now having the word “Saints”, or “Hagios” being utilized instead.

    There is the necessity for something to occur to “effect change” within a definition for a specific word or phrase to then have new meaning.
    This simply can not happen arbitrarily within scripture. (This I attempted to explain regarding the word “elect” in Matthew 24:22 as not possibly be referring to the Church since the Church itself did not even exist yet. Rapture and Church of Philadelphia, June 1st. 7:27 pm)

    As in the New Covenant for another example, Yeshua had to die before this Covenant took effect.(Hebrews 9:16)
    This act brought the New Covenant into effect.

    So what do you suppose would be the change that would have the word “Ekklesia” disappear, and have it replaced with the word Saints, before Yeshua opens the 1st. seal?

    What do you suppose He meant when after He had been speaking about the tribulation in all of Luke 21, when He says in verse 36….
    “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”?

    It all looks pretty obvious to me.

    Be Blessed

    • A
      Wow you have left alot for me to go over! My conclusion on the book of enoch is that it was “corrupted” at some point during the intertestamental period, but there are parts that were “original” to enoch and Noah. That being said, I will approach it with caution. I believe that this text was known and relavent at the time of Christ, and could have been the cause for the jewish people rejecting the messiah as Saviour because they were looking for a King. I believe that these are the parts that were “added” during the intertestamental period.
      That being said, I believe this text was a part of the “culture” around the time of Christ, and can be a tool used for understanding linguistic assumptions made by the writers. The question of who are the elect and the saints being one of them.
      Alienated; I have not had the time to fully “digest” what I have read so as to make any Intelligent argument for or against your theories. (sorry) I have been busy. I will try to “blow some holes” or affirm your theories this weekend … God bless.

  54. Oh Dru,

    By the way, which version are you reading?
    The Ethiopic Version, or one of the Greek versions? (either from Syncellus, or the one discovered at Akhmîm, and deposited in the Gizeh Museum, Cairo.)

    Be Blessed

    • Ethiopic. Is there a difference? which one do you recommend?

      • Well the one that I posted above utilizes all of them in a side by side format where necessary for better clarification. If you decide to use it , read the “Abbreviations, Brackets and Symbols” section first to have a better understanding as to what they mean.
        Why don’t you post the one that you are reading too, so I can check it out as well.

        Thanks,
        Later bro.

  55. Alienated
    Ok, Here is part 1. I am in agreement with you that there are three groups mentioned pertaining to end times. They are; “the elect”, “the righteous”, and “the saints”

    Chapter 1 states the “elect and the righteous…were to exist in the time of trouble (tribulation)” Enoch then equates himself as one of the righteous.

    Therefore; the elect and righteous are not raptured.

    Chapter 2 then says “behold, he COMES with 10,000 of his saints to execute judgement upon them (the Elect).” This is the section quoted by Jude. So from this we can deduce that the “saints” are those which are raptured, because they “come” with the Lord from heaven. Also the Elect definately refers to Israel, and they will be judged by the saints.

    Chapter 24:9-11 says the “fruit of the Tree shall be given to the elect after Judgement (by the saints)….(they) shall live a long life on earth” Thus the “reward” for the “elect” is long life on earth. This is a fulfillment of the Old covenent with Israel.

    Now the question becomes; Who are the “righteous”? and how is it that Enoch will be “counted” among them?

    I will answer the second question first. Enoch was considered righteous by God, and therefore ascended to heaven. If, however, he is to come back to be a witness in the time of “trouble”, and be killed as one of the “two witnesses”, then he will be considered a martyr, Or one of the “elect who suffer on account of the Lord of Spirits”. Jesus, is also the First Among this group. Ch. 40:5

    Therefore, the “righteous”, are those who choose to suffer as Christ chose to suffer. 47:1,4 says ” the prayers of the holy (saints) and the righteous, and the blood of the righteous (only) shall ascend… Because the consumation of righteousness was arrived, The supplication (prayers) of saints heard and the blood of the righteous appreciated by the Lord of Spirits.”

    One thing that you might want to pay careful attention to is that there are the “elect” of the Old Testament, and the “elect” of that covenents fulfillment in the time of trouble. The OT elect can be confused with the “saints” and the “righteous”.

    Since I do not have a hard copy of the Book of Enoch, and it is a pain to jump back and forth btwn websites to quote my support for what I have said, I will just list the verses, or chapters which led me to my conclussions. The ones with (*) are particularly important.
    1:1-8*
    2:1*
    24:9-11
    26:13*
    38:1-5* ***
    39:6
    Chapter 40* ***
    45:3-5
    46:6*
    47:1-4*

    *** These passages I will come back to in part 2, as they have relavence to other topics we have been discussing, chapter 40 = Satan thrown down from heaven, and chapter 38, dealing with the founding of the church, and the secrets of the “righteous” revealed.

    Hopefully this will give you something to “work on” for a little while. As you can tell, this is through chapter 47 only. I will try to “lock and Load” on my next post.

    • hi dru

      Just to throw this in.

      The OT refers to the righteous Jews as saints also, so these could be those righteous Jews already in heaven redeemed once Messiah came. Or, Christians who have lived and died on earth already.

      This would make the saints that come with Jesus OT saints, or those Christians already dead before the tribulation starts, and has nothing to do with the raptured saints. Maybe the rapture has not occurred yet in this verse.

    • Hi Dru,

      Okay, I need to know the following first.

      You say above, Chapter 1 states the “elect and the righteous…were to exist in the time of trouble (tribulation)” Enoch then equates himself as one of the righteous. Therefore; the elect and righteous are not raptured.”

      I would agree that in the 1st. chapter it indeed says that, “The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ righteous, who will be living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked ⌈⌈and godless⌉⌉ are to be removed.

      However with that, there are a couple of different meanings behind what you say here. So allow me please to clarify what it is that you are actually saying.
      Are you saying;

      (1) That because this states that the “elect and righteous” are to exist during the time of the tribulation, that would mean that the Church would not be raptured beforehand?

      (2) Or are you simply making the statement, as a conclusion in saying that the “elect and righteous” are not raptured?

      (3) Or, have you incorporated replacement theology and taken the word “elect” and associated it to be representing the Church rather than possibly being representative to Israel?

      The way that I see all of this, is that the “elect” is Israel, and the “righteous” are what are referred to in Revelation as being the Saints, (which could consist of those left behind, or any other individual that comes to the faith.). So with that, I would agree that neither will be raptured, (other than the 144,000) and that all will go through some of the tribulation and wrath of God.

      Where you start the paragraph above with, “Chapter 2” I agree with what you say.
      I also agree with your next paragraph that starts with, “Chapter 24:9-11”.

      Then you ask the question, “Who are the “righteous”? and how is it that Enoch will be “counted” among them?”

      In your next three paragraphs, we also agree.
      And this may answer my question that I initially started with, because it appears that you are being diligent and are taking each chapter, and what that chapter says, and relating its context to its corresponding time frame.
      Understanding that the word “elect” can refer to a variety of different groups that are “chosen by God” for either blessing, or destruction. (The Messiah, Israel, the Church, the Saints, The Righteous, or in the case of destruction, the fallen angels.)
      Another possibility for the righteous, are those who are Yeshua’s by “faith” only. Meaning that during the tribulation they haven’t been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
      As I have said before, it is my opinion that when the rapture occurs that the “age of Grace” and those that are indwelt is also concluded.

      The “age of Grace” itself serves “two” specific purposes.
      (1) It is to choose a bride of sorts for Yeshua. A specific group of people that are “Justified” upon their conversion, “Sanctified” by maintaining their faith and not returning to their old and sinful ways, but allowing the Spirit to change them, and then ultimately “Glorified” in the resurrection rapture.
      (2) It is the restrainer that is holding back the man of lawlessness.

      Basically, the only part that we may disagree upon is the last sentence in your reply to Marianne below where you say,”The conclusion I come to is that we Christians will be tested in this way as well and if we pass, we will be a “testimony” of the redemptive work of Jesus, and the power of the cross.”

      I believe that the “passing grade” is here and now during our lives, and in how we live them.
      In the “age of Grace” we are tested everyday to remain faithful and to seek relationship.
      As you know by my study regarding the Ten Virgins that I believe that not all will go through that open door, some will find it shut. As well, in God maintaining continuity and justice, not all Christians that have died and gone to heaven, will return with Yeshua for their resurrected bodies either. This will be only for a specific group that have been counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

      Be Blessed

      • Alienated
        Elect = Israel, this could be OT saints, Or 144,000 of end times. These will be the only Israelites to make it through the tribulation apart from those Jews who have believed in Jesus.
        Saints= Old covenent “saints” and Those raptured in End times.
        Righteous= Christians who will Go through the tribulation.

        Enoch is a saint, but he will be considered righteous when he comes as one of the two “witnesses” Righteousness is equated to those who suffer as a way to “witness” to the world and to defeat Satan, as what Christ did on the cross has defeated satan. It is evidence of The redemptive work of the cross, which will “condemn” Satan to the pit.

        I Agree that the age of grace will end at the rapture. It is only those who are “filled with the love of Christ, and have been sanctified by the HS beforehand that will be able to “withstand the onslaught” and “overcome”.

        Look, I am not trying to convince you that “you should not be raptured”. I am just trying to show you that some of us may choose to take the path of “going through the tribulation” as is the case with Enoch, If it is he that comes as one of the two witnesses. I know that the HS and God are preparing me for this. I have even had a dream as to how events will unfold. If I am just delusional with regard to this, then the Lord will take me at the rapture. I am “assured” of this. But I believe he has a purpose and use for me beyond that. Not to say that I am any more worthy than you. My calling is just different than yours. Either way the Lord’s will will be done.

        Maybe I have just watched too many court shows on TV, but I think Satan was Locked up (restrained) at Christ’s death, and will have his Trial during the tribulation, where evidence of God’s righteousness will be introduced in court, and part of this is the power of the cross to transform humans, That we no longer belong to Satan, but to God.

        I think, if anything, the book of Enoch deals with the “battles” that go on in the heavenly realm. We are only atiny piece of the puzzle.

  56. marianne
    Chapter 1:2 says that this book is written for a distant time period, for those going through the time of trouble. Yes OT “saints” and NT Christians already dead are among them. They are all among the thousands of thousands. (chapter 40) v2 “On the four sides of the Lord, I perceived others”, who are the others? Yes each of the voices are those of the four “angels of the most High” but each is associated with a group of people. 1. Michael is the angel associated with the Israelites of the OT. 2. The second blessing the Elect One and the elect who suffer on accound of the Lord of Spirits. These are associated with Raphael, and I believe refer to the early church and apostles. 3. is associated with the prayers of the saints, or those who have died as Christians, and are led by the angel Gabriel, who presides and judges the world with the saints. 4. phanuel is the angel associated with this group. They are expelling impious angels from the prescence of the Lord of spirits. These are the ones that by their lives have proved that the sanctifying of the spirit has “perfected their love” so that through their testimony, Satan is expelled and eventually thrown into the pit for the Millenial kingdom.

    38:2 says ” when the righteousness shall be manifested” (the second coming of Christ) “In the prescence of the righteous themselves” (the ones going through the tribulation). Then It defines who the righteous are, “those elected for their goodworks, duly weighed by the Lord of Spirits” Note the “duly weighed by the Lord of Spirits” part. V3 then says ” the Secrets of the righteous shall be revealed” from that period on “those who possess the earth shall cease to be powerful and exalted.” (v4)
    “…For the light of the countenences of the holy(saints), the righteous, and elect, has BEEN SEEN BY THE LORD OF SPIRITS.” Compare this to the fifth seal of revalation. “until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete…” Rev 6:11

    The only “good works” that will be seen by the God are those of love as commanded by Jesus himself in the upper room discourse, that we belive on the Lord Jesus, and that we Love on another as he (jesus) loved us, by dying on the cross and suffering for our account. The conclusion I come to is that we Christians will be tested in this way as well and if we pass, we will be a “testimony” of the redemptive work of Jesus, and the power of the cross.

  57. Hi Guys,

    I started to read BOE again so I could join in the fun but I got sidetracked on my own tangent right off the bat. Soooo, I thought I would share what I found:
    Book Of Enoch chapter 14
    And the vision was shown to me thus: Behold, in the vision clouds invited me and a mist summoned me, and the course of the stars and the lightnings sped and hastened me, and the winds in 9) the vision caused me to fly and lifted me upward, and bore me into heaven. And I went in till I drew nigh to a wall which is built of crystals and surrounded by tongues of fire: and it began to affright 10) me. And I went into the tongues of fire and drew nigh to a large house which was built of crystals: and the walls of the house were like a tesselated floor (made) of crystals, and its groundwork was 11) of crystal. Its ceiling was like the path of the stars and the lightnings, and between them were 12) fiery cherubim, and their heaven was (clear as) water. A flaming fire surrounded the walls, and its 13) portals blazed with fire. And I entered into that house, and it was hot as fire and cold as ice: there 14) were no delights of life therein: fear covered me, and trembling gat hold upon me. And as I quaked 15) and trembled, I fell upon my face. And I beheld a vision, And lo! there was a second house, greater 16) than the former, and the entire portal stood open before me, and it was built of flames of fire. And in every respect it so excelled in splendour and magnificence and extent that I cannot describe to 17) you its splendour and its extent. And its floor was of fire, and above it were lightnings and the path 18) of the stars, and its ceiling also was flaming fire. And I looked and saw therein a lofty throne: its appearance was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of 19) cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look 20) thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and 21) was whiter than any snow. None of the angels could enter and could behold His face by reason 22) of the magnificence and glory and no flesh could behold Him. The flaming fire was round about Him, and a great fire stood before Him, and none around could draw nigh Him: ten thousand times 23) ten thousand (stood) before Him, yet He needed no counselor. And the most holy ones who were 24) nigh to Him did not leave by night nor depart from Him. And until then I had been prostrate on my face, trembling: and the Lord called me with His own mouth, and said to me: ‘Come hither, 25) Enoch, and hear my word.’ And one of the holy ones came to me and waked me, and He made me rise up and approach the door: and I bowed my face downwards.

    If you add this to my post of the traditional Scripture readings on Shavuot, and Revelation 4, I think the echos are deafening.
    Have a great 4th everyone! I will pick up my sudies again after the festivities. See ya then.

  58. The two witnesses are believed to be either: Enoch, Elijah, or Moses. But has any considered the possiblity of Daniel being one of the two? Dan12:13 uses an interesting phrase, “stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” I mean, why say “stand in thy lot” if his earthy works were already finished?

    Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Just a thought…

  59. To all.

    For those that wish to further their studies regarding this wonderfully intriguing book, may I suggest the following link below.

    http://www.firefromheaven.net/enoch/enochbook.html

    This is by Michael F. and though I have read both Lawrence’s and Charles’s renditions, this is by far, easier to read and comprehend. He (Michael) also provides some interesting commentary to the verses as well.

    Be Blessed

  60. It is very interesting that the dead sea scrolls was found almost the same time israel became a state to themself at around 1948 , as well as other things took place , Enoch and Elijah was borned on earth as men at near this time or one shortly later I believe this was prophecy fufilling it self . understand the two men was taken to heaven without tasting death .God transformed them into angelic beings until God needed to send them back to witnesse unto the world using what was found to correct what men had teached wrong information . Then two men didn’t taste death but in Hebrews 9:27 it stated its appointed once to die then after that judgment they must return as men in flesh to taste death then stand in front of God like everyone as.If you remember a women asked Christ if her two sons could set on his right and left of him in the kingdom but christ stated he couldn’t grand that because that was already been given by God this was given to Gods two anointed men to carry out the restoration of the gospel before the end comes because men erred from the real truth of Christ and the real reason why he die on the cross to restore the truth that he didn’t die to give you a place to go to after death but a way to live as he stated I’am the way and truth and life Ask your self this question to your self if the churches were right why would God need to send back two witnesses to prophesy understand who were they prophesing to ? It wasn’t sinners but christians . Sinners is lost they wouldn’t understand what the two were talking about only they that has a deep understanding of the bible would understanding would know. Also the lost books of the bible and the books of enoch has been revealed to support the real truth this is why most churches has gone against them because the churches has after the way of the vworld they can’t have their support leave which is money, they erred from the truth to get gain bless all Al

    • Albert… very intriguing comment. Israel’s restoration marked the beginning of the end-times prophetic timetable. So many other things happend right around the same time (won’t go into all that here).

      Enoch and Elijah got their glorified bodies when they were translated to heaven; people don’t “turn into” angels, as angels are created beings. They’ve been in heaven all this time, awaiting their opportunity to return and wrap up a message to the Tribulation Church…. if I have my timing right, I believe the Church (those truly born again) will have been raptured out before this point. So they would be speaking to those who will “get it”and accept Christ as events in Revelation unfold. There will likely be a tremendous ‘revival’ (for lack of a better term) right after the rapture. I believe their faith and boldness, will get the attention of many as time goes on, and many of those who have begun to listen, will heed what these two prophets say.

  61. 59.76 seconds? Lends new meaning to the old term, “Be back in a minute!” LOL Interesting study. God abides in eternity, where by definition, time has no meaning. Therefore, the 2 witnesses shouldn’t have aged a day since their departure from this world, which effectively fits with what you said. Should be able to see for ourselves, shortly! HALLELUJAH

  62. I recently listened to a lecture on the 2 witnesses, and the commentator made an interesting proposition. He believes that the 2 witnesses will be neither Enoch, Elijah or Moses, but simply two people from the remnant true church, whatever that is.
    He pointed out that God always chooses prophets from the common people, such as were the apostles etc. This is how God has always done things in the past, so why would He change His ways at this point? It certainly makes sense to me. I find no firm reason to reject the idea.
    It would certainly make more sense as to why the Christian church (the beast) would hate the witnesses and try to kill them. Surely if the prophets returned, resurrected in the flesh, no Christian would condone killing either of them. Just the thought of that would be ridiculous to any Jew, Christian or Muslim.
    Yet everyone will cheer when they are finally killed, so it seems to me that they could not ever be such important biblical heros. But two preachers from some minor church, telling everyone to keep the commandments and give up pagan practices and holidays like Christmas and Easter. I can see how two such people would be mocked by most Christians and especially the Catholic church, the most pagan denomination of all.
    I always like to keep an open mind and look for the most logical explanations so I wouldn’t be surprised if this idea might be true. People who are expecting the old prophets would surely claim these guys are bogus, and try to get rid of them, so I don’t plan on being one of these folks. I will look for the witnesses, just as Revelation describes, and if they ARE the prophets, fine, but if they are not, I will surely listen to their message very carefully, and if they speak the words of God, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.
    Just something to think about – if you have an open mind.

  63. […] analyze, rather than dogmatically conclude.  Here is a fun article to get you started: https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/enoch-and-elijah-and-einstein/; or consider Bars’ work to describe a six-dimensional universe (4 space dimensions + 2 time […]

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