Ignorance Is No Excuse


And it does not bring bliss either.

Reason for this post:

Many of us are praying for unsaved loved ones. Will they be saved, or stay saved, if there is a breakthrough?

We can plead on their behalf that they are really good people, but they are just ignorant.

They are not wicked. They are just stupid!

We want them to come to the knowledge of the truth.

We are concerned, so we ask for mercy and safety from any harsh judgments, as we hope for their salvation.

I was praying this way, and God answered me:

“Ignorance is no excuse.”

So He did not accept how I was praying.


Ignorance of Man’s Law

In civil and criminal law, this is a maxim:


Ignorance of Law Law & Legal Definition

Ignorance of law means want of knowledge of those laws which a person has a duty to know and which everyman is presumed to know.

Ignorance can be voluntary or involuntary.

It is voluntary when a person might by taking reasonable pains could have acquired the necessary knowledge.

For example every man can acquire knowledge of the laws which have been promulgated. Therefore neglect to become acquainted with them is voluntary ignorance.

On the other hand it is involuntary when the ignorance is not of choice and it cannot be overcome by the use of any means of knowledge known to him and within his power. For example ignorance of a law which has not yet been promulgated (published).

The rationale of this maxim is that if ignorance of law was an excuse then any person charged with a criminal offense or subject of a civil suit can claim that he or she was unaware of the law in question and avoid liability.

The law imputes knowledge of all laws to all persons within its jurisdiction.

The doctrine assumes that the law in question has been properly published and distributed, for example, by being printed in a government gazette, made available over the internet, or printed in volumes available for sale to the public at affordable prices.


Ignorance of God’s law

Much of the same rationale is used with God’s law. It has been in existence for 4000 years, and has been widely published, and announced.

So whether people accept it or not, they know about it.

God’s expectations go further than just “law.”

There are commandments to help the poor, and needy, to forgive, to preach the gospel, to visit the sick, to pray, to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and seek God, etc. We are to love God and love one another, and to “bear fruit.”


The Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins – Matthew 25:

25 “Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

2 Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

***Note: foolish here is “moros” : without education or learning (ignorant) impious, godless

3 Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,

4 but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

5 But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6 “And at midnight a cry was heard: ‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming;[a] go out to meet him!’

7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’

9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11 “Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’ 12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

The penalty for being foolish is to miss heaven.

At first I thought the virgins were just stupid or ignorant in a mild way, but examination of scriptures gives deeper insight.

After all, they were virgins, so it seemed they were pure enough to be invited to the wedding feast, and they were invited.

They were waiting for the bridegroom, as if all was well, but they ran out of oil. This means they had oil to begin with.

So, why is this so wrong?


What is “foolish” according to scripture?


Proverbs 18:2 – A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Proverbs 10:23 – [It is] as sport to a fool to do mischief: but a man of understanding hath wisdom.

Psalms 14:1 – (To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.) The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.

Matthew 7:26 – And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Proverbs 10:18 – He that hides hatred [with] lying lips, and he that utters a slander, [is] a fool.

Ecclesiastes 10:11-15 – Surely the serpent will bite without enchantment; and a babbler is no better.

Proverbs 15:2 – The tongue of the wise uses knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools pours out foolishness.

Proverbs 21:20 – [There is] treasure to be desired and oil in the dwelling of the wise; but a foolish man spends it up.

Proverbs 20:3 – [It is] an honor for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.

Proverbs 19:13 – A foolish son [is] the calamity of his father: and the contentions of a wife [are] a continual dropping.

Proverbs 18:7 – A fool’s mouth [is] his destruction, and his lips [are] the snare of his soul.

Proverbs 18:6 – A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calls for strokes.

Proverbs 17:25 – A foolish son [is] a grief to his father, and bitterness to her that bare him.

Proverbs 15:20 – A wise son makes a glad father: but a foolish man despises his mother.

Proverbs 14:16 – A wise [man] fears, and departs from evil: but the fool rages, and is confident.

Proverbs 10:10 – He that winks with the eye causes sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.

Proverbs 10:8 – The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

Proverbs 10:1 – The proverbs of Solomon. A wise son makes a glad father: but a foolish son [is] the heaviness of his mother.

Proverbs 9:13-17 – A foolish woman [is] clamorous: [she is] simple, and knows nothing.   (Read More…)

Proverbs 9:6-8 – Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.   (Read More…)

Proverbs 3:35 – The wise shall inherit glory: but shame shall be the promotion of fools.

Proverbs 1:22 – How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Psalms 74:18-22 – Remember this, [that] the enemy hath reproached, O LORD, and [that] the foolish people have blasphemed thy name.   (Read More…)

Summary of descriptions:

From the descriptions above, the foolish are “willfully ignorant.”

They enjoy ignorance and reject the law,

They scorn, hate knowledge, and understand nothing,

They despise their parents, and cause them grief,

They spend their oil and waste it.

They know nothing, even about their own heart or selves.

They meddle, they talk too much, saying things they should not.

They rage and create strife.

They do not depart from evil.

They even blaspheme God.

They are into mischief and slander.

They say there is no God.

So, if they are this bad, why are they called virgins, possessing oil, and why were they invited to the feast?


It seems these foolish ones are those who remind me of the sower and the seed parable.

They once received the Word of God, but then lost it, or allowed the things of this world to creep in, and destroy what they received.

So they were virgins to begin with.

Their oil did not last long, as they were “bad soil,” and not really deeply interested in salvation.

They ended up more wicked than they were to begin with, or at least, just as bad.

So, it is not how you start out, but how you end up, in your life.



Keeping what God gives us is important.

Wisdom is crucial, so we should ask for it.

The presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives has to be nurtured and respected.

If we ignore the Holy Spirit, He leaves.

Without Him we are in the flesh, and no flesh can stand before God.

We are no longer focused on the things of God, and we fall back into sin quickly.

We cannot claim “we did not know” before God, once knowledge has been offered us, or we have had knowledge and tossed it away.

If our oil lamps go out, it is our fault.

Scripture say it is worse for those who knew the truth, then rejected it, than for those who never knew the truth.

Hebrews 6: 4–6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


Serious point:

For our loved ones…….

Just like for us, ignorance is no excuse, especially when knowledge of the truth is available to them and they voluntarily reject it.

If we are praying for God to overlook their stupidity and ignorance, He will not do it.

We must pray that God opens their eyes and hearts, and creates a repentant heart inside of them.

They must go through the same process we did.

There are no fools in heaven.

We must come against all evil forces in prayer that blind our loved ones, and constantly present the truth to them, and pray that God does whatever He knows is necessary to reach them in time.

This may be a crisis in their lives, or some other life changing event.

Ignorance is not bliss, but salvation is. And this is our goal: to see them accept salvation, and rejoice with them when it happens.

312 Responses to “Ignorance Is No Excuse”

  1. […] here for […]

  2. Jesus said:
    “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Matthew 5:17]

    Unfortunately, Paul was ignorant of the words of Jesus, and he wrote of Jesus “abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” [Ephesians 2:15]

    • Matthew read Matt. 5-17 over again and then look the word FULFILL up in the dictionary………it means……to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time:…..

      First of all Moses ordinances are not the ten commandments and these ordinances ARE abolished…..Second, the ten commandments are fulffilled because anyone who follows the two love laws does not commit adultery, steal, lie, worship false gods, etc.. Paul is the one who expained this little mystery…
      God knows all of us are like Adam in understanding what is good and what is evil…He also knows we all sin….If God did not save us and sanction us by faith and grace we are all lost…

      The bible says do not judge and you friend are judging Paul and the word of God and god Himself and also all those you manage to decieve..

      Jesus Himself showed us the ordinances were abolished when the hypocrites brought forth the woman accused of adultery.He told them he that is without sin cast the first stone..Matthew, go and do likewise..

      Romans 13- 8, 9, 10
      Galatians 5-14..For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

      • Mtthew you hate Paul becone his words prove you a liar and a false brother..
        Galations 2 -..4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
        24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to BONDAGE, which is Agar.Agar means Hagar..
        Galatinas 3- 10 , 11..For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

        6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

        7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

        8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

        9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

        10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

        11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

        • Romans 13
          8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

          9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

          10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

          • One last little tidbit…Jesus was murdered because the jews accused Him of blasphemy because He said He is Son of God… Were these old covenant believers right to murder Jesus?… Stephen was also murdered because of old covenant believers who accused Him of trying to abolish the law…Were these killers correct….????? What think you Matthew..????

            What think you Matthew about men who commit adulery in their hearts…Should we stone them to death???? If so ,goodbye all men…

          • e1313ruth,

            Why do you continue in dialogue when you previously rebuked the demonic spirit?

            Let the rebuke, spoken/expressed in the name of Jesus and in faith, do the work.

            Peter said it best about Paul’s letters when he wrote,

            “…be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.

            There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

            You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

            But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen” (2 Peter 3:14-18).

            Psalm 64:5

            • DJ, for the record, it was the Holy Spirit in me who was led to rebuke that apostate hypocrite false teacher Matthew Perri.

              However, e1313ruth got the ball rolling.

              God is not happy with these charlatans,I can tell you that much. It’s gonna be real bad for them. Unless they repent.

              The fear of the Lord is coming to His house.

              • no name calling, please

                • That’s not name calling Marianne.Matthew Perri IS a hypocrite and a false teacher and deciever. A perverter of the truth of the gospel and of scripture.Was Jesus “name-calling” when He said someone was a hypocrite..ie, the pharisees?

                  I call a spade a spade.

                  Have you no discernment? Jesus would have rebuked Matthew Perri to his face and I would do the same if I was in a church where he was “teaching” his false doctrine.

              • Dear Beast,

                Jesus said:
                “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.” [John 5:31]
                “inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them.” [Matthew 7:15-16]

                In a personal letter in the third and lowest category of the New Testament, the writings or “Scripture”, Paul wrote:

                “The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.”
                [Galatians 5:22-23]

                • Matthew,
                  Even though they are right, by presenting it to you this way, they do the very thing they hate.
                  It is not by might, not by power, but by his Spirit. His presence is what brings us to be the people we want to be, loving God and loving others. Once He has made that possible the law has no hold on us.
                  Sounds like everybody needs to take a deep breath and call on Jesus.

                  • Chris,
                    if you read the “history’ of Matthew Perri’s comments here on this forum, he has willfully tried to promote his false teaching numerous times even after being corrected and after he has been told to stop promoting that Paul is a false apostle and we should throw out Paul’s letters in the scripture. He is unrepentant of his false and perverted teaching.

                    It is a deliberate attempt on his part to insinuate his heresy continually in his comments.

                    I dare say Paul, would have rebuked him to his face for his lies.

                    Jesus did not mince words when it came to upholding the truth. He called out the pharisees, calling them “hypocrites” and even stronger, “brood of vipers” and “serpents”.

                    We have a VIPER here in the form of Matthew Perri who twists the truth with his false teaching. In this instance, politeness is not called for.

                    he repents he will suffer the consequences of his deliberate teaching of falsehood. Jesus HATES this.

                    Jesus HATES what he is doing.

                    Jesus will deal with him. I hope he repents because Jesus does not suffer fools gladly and judgment is upon him.

                    He has been warned.

                  • Chris,
                    You said “they are right.” What, specifically, are you talking about? Please quote, “them”, me or the Bible. If you can’t be specific, and back it up, don’t say someone is “right.”

                    I have this ravenous beast constantly spewing out his carnal opinions, accusing me viciously over and over.
                    But, I don’t think he has ever quoted me specifically or quoted the Bible specifically. It’s just general slander and hostility, or else he is twisting my words and falsely accusing me of things I didn’t say.
                    It sounds like the voice of a demon that is controlling him.

                    But the Lord God Jesus, the son of Yahweh the Most High God is my Warrior.

    • Matthew Perri, you are a hypocrite.

      It is YOU who are the ignorant one as you despise the scriptures and only cherry pick which ones you like and dislike. Paul’s words AND Jesus’s word’s will condemn you on the day of judgment.

      You know neither Jesus nor His word, so stop professing to say you are His follower.

      You spit in his face with your propagation of your heresy saying Paul’s letters do not belong in the bible.

      Jesus is going to throw you into the fire if you persist in your rebellious teaching and intentionally trying to lead others astray.


    • Matthew, this is what Peter said of Paul and those who wrestle with Paul’s words…
      2 Peter 3-15, 16..And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; v.17.As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
      Verse 17..Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

  3. One may argue this many ways, with conflicting results. Jesus did say, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
    I believe many people today have NOT had the gospel presented to them.
    Anything they know about it is second-hand, received through an unbelieving press, even from unbelieving pastors who work just to make a living (I wouldn’t have believed this possible, this last about the pastors working to make a living only, until I saw it this year). Their parents are not believers, in many cases. I cannot help feeling sorry for them and praying that Jesus will excuse them because they “knew not what they did.”

    I myself am ignorant of many things pertaining to God. My hope is to know Him better in Heaven, and to be changed to be more like Him. In the meanwhile, every year shows me more things I do not know about Him and about many other things.

    But I accept His sacrifice for me, which is what I am able to do because I love Him. Loving Him will lead us eventually out of our blindness.

    Paul, yes, might have been ignorant in some things–he said himself that he had a “thorn” which God would not take away. For a man of his education, perhaps the thorn was his sense that he did not know the whole truth. He had to face what many scientists won’t face today, that they don’t know everything and can’t know everything. Thus Paul became a humble scholar.

    Science and its know-it-alls are the bane of the modern world, and can excuse any behavior with pompous words. This I know from a lot of experience with Ph.D’s, some of whom are my relatives. They have been brainwashed to think they either know everything or they will at some point do so (not through God’s help, not in Heaven).

    • Mariel

      There is something I just mentioned but did not dwell upon, and that is involuntary ignorance ( under the law of man above).

      Even if one wants to know, knowledge can be denied to a seeker by others.

      But I believe, if one persists, one eventually finds the answers they are looking for.

    • Mariel,
      I appreciate your thoughtful comments, and your concern that many people only know about the gospel “second-hand.” There are certainly plenty of educated “know-it-alls” around today- and in the page of the Bible too!

      Here is an example of that, from the pages of the Bible, regarding:
      What does it prove if someone calls Jesus “Lord”?

      .1) The Word of God, the voice of Jesus, from the Gospel, first-hand:
      Matthew 7:21-23

      .2) The voice of Paul, from the personal letters, second-hand:
      1 Corinthians 12:3

      You wrote: “Paul, yes, MIGHT have been ignorant in some things”, and
      “PERHAPS” he did not know the whole truth.”

      Is there any reason you could not clearly affirm that Paul DEFINITELY was ignorant of some things and OBVIOUSLY did not know the whole truth?

      I could affirm that about myself, and every other human who ever lived, except Jesus who was both God and man. My goal is to become more like Jesus was when He walked the earth (not like Paul.) How about you?

    • Mariel,

      Oh my! Do you have problems with Paul too?

      I read in your post above that Paul’s thorn in the flesh may have affected his discernment and writings, right?

      So, pick a verse/passage from one of Paul’s letters (so many to choose from) and apply the thorn test. Doubts abound!

      Will you take the testimony of Peter when he wrote his approval of Paul’s letters?

      “…be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.

      There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

      You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

      But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen” (2 Peter 3:14-18).

      I think Peter wrote this and the passage was included for such dialogue that I am reading within Heaven Awaits.

      Seeds of doubt of the inspired Scriptures are planted with such discourse about Paul’s authority and authorship.

      Doubts of the inspired Scriptures can grow in the mind of infant believers, living on a diet of milk, and they can “loose stability”.

      Psalm 64

      • DJ,
        I’m glad you appreciate the words of the Apostle Peter- I do too.

        Near the end of Peter’s life, after he had met Paul personally more than once and read many of Paul’s personal letters (which were only addressed to specific individuals or churches), Peter never referred to Paul as an “apostle” in any way, but rather as “our beloved brother Paul.”

        Luke also records the Apostle Peter’s words in Acts 1:15-26, describing the qualifications needed for the one man who would take the 12th Apostolic throne in place of Judas, and Matthias was appointed as the 12th. None of these 12 Apostles were ever removed or replaced.

        The Apostle John, writing about the “new Jerusalem”, records:
        “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the TWELVE apostles of the Lamb.” [Revelation 21:14]

      • Paul never said what his thorn was….I personally thought he had “woman trouble.”

        There may be some passages that cause questions, as he was not writing to us, but to people who already knew other teachings he gave, which were not written.

        So we must look overall at his work, and try to see the good that is there, and leave the confusion for God to sort out.

        • The Scripture plainly says what Pauls thorn was. It was the “Abundance of the Revelation” that he had. Like Christ all the unbelief toward your Message causes “grief and pain and sorrows” over professing Christ yet not knowing Him in His Resurrection. Still wanting to live under the law of Moses and the O.T. Imagine yourself trying to tell all the Jews they did not have to be circumcised. Or keep the Holy Day cause everdy day is a Holy Day when you are IN CHRIST. That is the REST and HOLY DAY. On and on and on. Just like todays church. Its the fullness of time. Unbelief prevails over all the world.

          Paul was a Chosen vessel and Had the “Complete Revelation” for the 1st. Century church age. That is why it was the Ephesian Church age that was first of the 7 ages. Paul also said that after he died. Wolves and False Prophets would take over the flock at Ephesus. It happened just like he said. The Nicolaitian spirit was completed and put into action in 325 AD when Constantine let unconverted pagans call themselves Christians. And it became the “Universal ” pagan Christian church. After Emperial Rome disappeared it became Papal Rome and Vicar of Christ and then called Pope etc.

          To say it plain. Most today do not even understand Paul’s message yet. Because of the Evil influence of the False Brethren in our day. Paul revealed the False Vine woman=Jezebel for what she was before it ever happened as did John as well. Rejection causes Pain and Suffering and Grief.
          All the Prophets and any Man with abundance of “Revelation” has to be built for it and that is why Jeremiah said they had to make their forehead as flint to resist the hardness of Israel. Same today


          • Tom,

            Jesus said:
            “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” [Matthew 5:17]

            Paul wrote of Jesus “abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.” [Ephesians 2:15]

            Are you saying that Jesus was wrong about himself, and Paul was right about Jesus, because Jesus really abolished the law?

            • Matthew – It was Christ that was in Moses – and the Prophets – It was Christ that was in Apostle Paul as well as the other Apostles. Christ did not knock Paul off his horse and blind him with the Light of God to curse him. But to make a Great Messenger out of him. God uses Men that is just the way it is. You might be sincere but wrong is wrong. Pray and ask the Lord to show you. Prayer and knowing the Voice of God is this hour is of most importance. God is for you not against you. Unless you against your ownself. Then Christ cannot help.


              • Tom,
                You are completely avoiding the clear words of Jesus in the text of the Bible that are staring you in the face, and dodging the issue. Did Jesus come to abolish the law? Jesus said NO. Paul said yes.

                Are you following Paul, or following Jesus?

                God made a Great Messenger of the Prophet Jonah too. And God used men like Samson, and the Kings Saul, Solomon, and David.

                But you don’t gloss over David’s adultery and murder and say “you shouldn’t judge, we all make mistakes, it’s OK because David’s heart was right, God used David greatly, we wrote half the Psalms, etc.” So why do you idolize Paul this way? Because of the demonic stronghold of tradition. The voice of Paul is not the voice of God.

                The Voice of God is the voice of the Lord God Jesus the Christ, the Jewish Messiah and son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel. Jesus is the Word, (The Torah, the 5 Books of the Law of Moses), made flesh (revealed in the 4 Gospels.)

  4. This is a very good read, but the same goes for those that think they have the truth & don’t. Ephesians 4:5 KJV
    [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
    There are over 44,000 “Christian denominations”. There are some denominations that slightly differ from others but; none the less the RIGHT doctrine is of the utmost importance. The 5 virgins that did have the oil; all had the same oil. There wasn’t one that had Wesson, another with Crisco, Mazola, so on & so forth. The same with all these denominations. First of all, 99% of the denominations can be traced back to a person but not the person of Christ. Examples: Seven Day Adventist/ Ellen G.White, Luthern/ Martin Luther, Baptist/ John Calvin, Mormons/Joe Smith, Jehovah Witness/ Charles T. Russel, Catholic/Constantine, just to name a few. Yet, our Bible clearly tells gives us fair warning. Colossians 2:8 KJV
    [8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. You see, those religions are not after Christ, they’re after man… Yet, most denominations are connected in the fact that they share the same mother. Revelation 17:5 KJV
    Notice that the word says she is a “mother”… In order to be a mother, you must have daughters.
    Revelation 18:4 KJV
    [4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    Protestant churches are called just that because they protested the Catholic Church. Thus, coming out of her; they are her daughters. Yet, in fact, they all continue to share the Catholic Churches foundation. In reality, they’ve yet to come out of her! Acts 2:37-44 KJV
    [37] Now when they heard this , they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. [40] And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. [41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. [44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
    Love, Jose
    P.S. Why do people say they believe in Jesus, yet, don’t want to take his name in baptism? John 20:31 KJV
    [31] But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    • Jose,
      Rev. 18:4 Come out of her my people that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

      That is not a Christian and it is not a Jew, it is a third religion, and if you look in Zechariah 5:11 you will find she lives in Shinar, not Rome.

      Zechariah 13: explains who these false prophets from Shinar are that need to be avoided in the last days.

      “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
      And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the Lord: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.”

      They are young men. They think pretend to be prophets. But the Lord will put an end to it, these youths from Shinar.

      “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:”

      But after the Lord has spoken from Zion with his double edged sword that will change everything:

      “they shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.”

      Soon. Watch what the Lord will do. Jesus is coming.

  5. Great article M. Either God or Satan blinds the mind of people. Jesus said in John 6:37;39; 44;10:29; we are drawn to Jesus by the Father. Which suggests we can not come to Jesus of ourselves because of our sin nature. Bear with me and I will recall a life experience that backs up what you say. 10 years ago I started working for this lady who was farming vegetables. She belonged to Christian Science, so spiritual warfare reigned between us. She had many demons including, lying, theft, temper and jealousy. One evening she called me a liar and also God, then repeated the statement. I left the room to pack my bags but felt the Lord tell me to stay. She pleaded with me and I agreed but on the condition, “no more abuse.” Within 12 months she had a massive heart attack and her farm was in decline. She survived, 12 months later another heart attack, again she survived. 12 Months later she was found to have cancer. She was admitted to hospital but 3 days later they phoned me to say they could do nothing. When I collected her, she told me of these demon spirits she could see, I brushed it off. At home I put here down in the lounge and went and made coffee, when I returned she had pulled a seat opposite her and was speaking to this “invisible being”. I then believed what she told me. For the next 2 days and nights she was tormented by these demonic spirits, both of us got no sleep. I have never seen so much fear in someones eyes. Middle of the 2nd day the Lord spoke to me, saying, “pray the tormenting spirits leave her,” I immediately did so. When I came home she was sitting in a chair but looking brain dead. The next day 2 ladies from my church came visiting, I told them about her and my theory is that we all have an open window to ask Jesus into our lives but when we refuse, the door is closed, whether we refuse once or a 1000 times, God makes that choice. I told them her window is re-opened. They told me I was talking rubbish. They went and spoke to her and I made them coffee. As I finished they were rushing out the door, no coffee, told me, “we believe everything you say,” and scared witless they left running. There after, her mind was open, watching John Hagee on the TV she told me what sin was! That night she pleaded with me that she never wanted to be tormented again. I told her to rebuke Christian Science, she did. Told her to ask Jesus to forgive her sins, she did. Then told her to ask Jesus into your life, she did. She hated Christian Science from then on, even though they sent their head staff to draw her back. God told myself and another lady she would be heaven. 10 days later she passed away. I preached to her for over 7 years, every day. That was wasted, but God, praise the Lord, in His mercy drew her to Jesus. Finally, the house was then full of demonic spirits, it took me about month to rid the house of them. Then one day a Hindu elder came, fool I was, I invited him into the house and the house was full of demonic spirits again. Not long after I left.
    Praise the Lord.

    • amazing story. thank you for sharing it.

    • Great description of spiritual reality. I think Satan does a lot of his best work through counterfeit religion, especially people who say they “believe in Christ and the Bible” but they really don’t know the Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah OF the Bible, and they refuse to listen to the voice of Jesus FROM the Bible.

      Of course people, even leaders, in “Christian” churches or organizations can be demonized- as in the synagogue in Mark chapter 1, or Judas Iscariot, or Ananias and Sapphira in Acts chapter 5.

      Yet, Satan has blinded so many in the Evangelical church with his theology that “true Christians cannot be “possessed” by a demon,” and anyone who disagrees is a “heretic.” Of course, all church leaders are automatically assumed to be “true Christians,” so the demons here usually just hide underneath the surface and do their work behind the scenes, hiding behind their pulpits or computer screens, etc. rather than manifesting openly as they do in some “backward faraway land…”

  6. I believe we are drawn into faith by God, as Jose believes, but there are earthly conduits, some of them “churches”. I was drawn into faith through children in my neighborhood who were Catholic, and by children at my school who went to church. In those days we had Christmas programs legally in school, and I learned a lot about Jesus there, even though my parents did not discuss Him regularly, as they claimed atheism. I think people can come to Christ through various denominations. The lady in Jose’s story came through whatever church Jose belonged to–I am using the word “church” here not necessarily as a denomination, but if Jose belonged to a group which included the ladies who came to visit after the employer got cancer, that would constitute a church. “Where two or three are gathered in My name, there am I also.”

    I also believe God initiates calling. He did for me. I am not ignorant of Christ, and yet most of what He is I do not yet know. In that sense I am still ignorant.
    My father was raised in Protestant denominations, mainly Presbyterian. But he claimed atheism as an adult. On his deathbed he sung hymns, prompted by the Holy Spirit. He came back to Christ, as far as I can see.
    God called Him back.

  7. Jose – Very good post and so very true. Keep it going.

    Allan Rawley –
    Very good post as well. Thank you both. Rejecting the Word is a serious, serious sin. It could come or lead one to the unpardonable sin.
    I think what it is in our age. Its a PRIDE SPIRIT as in Sodom and Gomorrah’s day. Pride goes with perversion and who cannot see all the perversion in todays world. Especially in USA.

    MATT 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, “from him shall be taken away even that he hath.”
    MATT. 3:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, “then cometh the wicked one”, “and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart.” This is he which received seed by the way side.
    20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that “heareth the word”, and “anon with joy receiveth it; ”
    21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
    22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
    23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

    3 out of 4 would be believers – sell out for one reason or another. A lot of it is they want to be “accepted” and not “rejected”. They cannot feel right being in the minority instead of the majority.

    These few Verses are a very hard statements by our Messiah. About Truth

    bro. tom

  8. I always believed Ignorance is NOT bliss but a physical and spiritual death and I have written this same thing in many reviews and got scoffed at. Well, its their funeral not mine, I do what YHWH put in my heart as I am here to do His will and not mine by sharing what He teaches me.
    So yes Marianne, all that you’ve mentioned in the article is true. I fully agree and I would like to add this for the “ignorant” and those who deliberately choose to remain ignorant.

    Ignorance is the absence of YHWH’s Holy Wisdom … just like ..
    Darkness is the absence of YHWH’s Holy Light.
    Evil is the absence of YHWH who Himself is the Light, the Wisdom, the Intelligence, the Knowledge, the Understanding, & the Discernment between the good & bad, … light & darkness, … sin & purity, … moral & immoral, … beautiful & ugly… etc.
    Hence, without YHWH, one goes back straight to square one .. that is.. IGNORANCE in other words DEATH.

  9. Bethany , is YHVH the god hat taught men good and evil.. genesis3…????

    Who is this YHVH….???
    Consider this….
    Galatians 3-10… For as many as are of the works of the law are under the CURSE: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    Galatians 3-13..Christ hath redeemed us from the CURSE of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED is every one that hangeth on a tree:
    Looks like the curse includes a cursed name….
    AND Isaiah 65-15, 16…..And ye shall leave your name for a CURSE unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and CALL HIS SERVANTS BY ANOHER NAME…That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth;aka JESUS, because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. :

    WOW God’s chosen did not know his name JEHOVAH…WHY????
    Exodus 6-3..And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

    WOW the children of Israel thought the I AM had sent Moses
    Exodus 3-14..And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    WOwie Jesus was the I AM even before Abraham….
    John 8-58..Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am…JESUS IS GOD..
    So who is this YHVH…??????
    Maybe this YHVH is the God the non chosen knew???what think you???
    Is this YHVH the hinder side of God that Hagar saw and evidently followed…
    Moses also looked upon Gods hinder side….
    Is this YHVH god’s wrath????

    • Hi there, e1313truth
      Thank you for your comment you brought up some important points. First of all YHWH is pure and righteous there’s no evil in Him so He never taught men any evil rather evil came to man and in IGNORANCE he accepted it and spread the virus that goes around until this day.
      Secondly His name is not JEHOVAH sounds like Jehovah’s witness cult. LOL! The YOD HEY VAV HEY has a significant meaning I won’t get into that, you can do your own study.
      Thirdly, you have jumped from Genesis to the Epistles LOL! I was scratching my head to understand what you were trying to say there. Anyways, I don’t want to step out of the way, but I don’t follow Saul/Paul rather I follow TORAH meaning YAHUSHUA (John 1.1- In the beginning was the TORAH(YAHUSHUA), and the TORAH was with YHWH, and the TORAH was YHWH.
      Fourthly, there are millions+++ gods, and ‘god’ does not mean a name but a ‘title’ – you can write it with a small ‘g’ or a big ‘G’ it makes no difference whatsoever because ‘god’ is a common name for all the gods on earth and astral gods, but, there is only One Almighty, All Powerful, and All Holy One, the Creator, and His name is YAHWEH and there is NO OTHER name as His in this whole wide world or the universe because YHWH is SET-APART therefore, He cannot be linked with other gods. The name Yahweh has been found to be unique to Israel and has not been verified as the name of any deity outside Israel. Even the Hebrew name ‘el’ or ‘elohim’ meaning ‘god’ or ‘gods’ is pagan and so are other names such as Jehovah, lord, adonai, etc. Also the Savior’s name is NOT ‘Jesus’ this has no meaning in Hebrew – rather His name is Yahoshua or Yahshua=meaning Who Yahweh is sending to save, one Who saves, delivers or rescues, or Savior. “Yah” is contained in the first part of the authentic Name of the Messiah of Israel, and it is connected to “shua”=meaning save. The name Yehoshua has the form of a compound of “Yeho-” and “shua”: Yeho- יְהוֹ is another form of יָהו Yahu, a theophoric element standing for the name of YAHUWAH יהוח (the Tetragrammaton YHWH, sometimes transcribed into English as Yahweh or Jehovah), and שׁוּעַ shua‘ is a noun meaning “a cry for help”, “a saving cry”, that is to say, a shout given when in need of rescue. Together, the name would then literally mean, “YHWH (Yahu) is a saving-cry,” that is to say, shout to YHWH when in need of help.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29 You can do a further google search for this info.
      However, to be brief, it was the Romans who suppressed, threatened and even tortured the Hebrews and the early gentile converts to Torah, from using the Sacred Names of the Holy Creator. Of course, there were also the Masorites that tried to protect the Sacred Names and even made some changes to them doing more damage to the Holy Creator’s name. We are commanded by the Creator to call Him by His proper name YAHWEH – but – should never take His name in vain.

      Btw, never use the name “Yeshu” for the Savior, which in Talmud means “may His name be blotted out.” This is written by Yahshua’s haters.

      In the following Scriptures YAH clearly says to Hebrews & gentile believers
      …. Exodus 23:13- Pay strict attention to everything I have said to you. You must not invoke “the names of other gods; they must not be heard on your lips.”
      …. Hosea 2:17-And I shall remove the names of the Ba’als from her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their names.

      Using the Ba’al names for our Creator is provoking Him to jealousy making Him turn His face away. Think about it, how would we respond if someone started calling you by some different name other than your own given name? Names have a significant meaning so we should never distort anyone’s name. As for me my name is precious to me, it’s like a crown I wear on my head and I dislike when someone even tries to shorten it.

      Lastly, when the Hebrews learned of the true name of the Creator through Moses, they called Him by the Sacred name Yahweh…all the rest of the pagan names came later after their persecution and captivity. Even the paleo Hebrew script was changed to the Babylonian script including the Ancient Calendar of YHWH. But now when Messiah Yahshua comes, He’s gonna put all things right, just as they were in the beginning of creation. Amen and may He come soon… Amen. Be Blessed.

      • Dear Bethany,
        Thanks so much for sharing your scholarship on this post.
        I did not know that only the name “YAHWEH” was unique to Israel, compared to the other names of the One True God. That is important.

        yevarekhekha Adonai veyishmerekha

        • Speaking of names….I have read that ADON was a pagan god…..

          Consider this….The Bible says the number of the beast is a number of a man….There is a man numbered 666 in ezra 2-13…Bear in mind men were numbered by their number of offsprings….it reads..””””The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six. “”””””
          Would this be a clue to the identity of the beast…Could this mean the beast brings old covenant laws and ordinances such as shariah and other doctrines being used to replace the new covenant..

          As for the name of JEHOVAH i AM FULLY AWARE THAT IT IS ONE OF GOD’S NAMES but I think it is used for the hinder side of god which appears to be a lot about judgment…
          Christians do not look on the hinder side of God ..They see him face to face in Jesus…Their angels do always behold the face of my father which is in Heaven….
          now we look through a glass darkly but hen face to face..

          • Hi e1313truth, yes it sounds weird re. the 666 children of Adonikam. These are the Hebrews who were in captivity in Babylon for 70 years and during that time there’s no doubt that they had mingled and/or were forced to mingle with the pagans there as well as to take on pagan names just like the names of Daniel and his 3 friends were changed.
            Maybe the # of children (666) was a fluke, I’m not going to break my head over that. However, the enemy of the Hebrews has always been Persia (present day Iran) a descendant of Esau, and I do believe that the antichrist has a bloodline that is somehow connected to Persia. According to Rev.9:11, I also believe satan will emerge from the pit in Iran and embody the antichrist.
            Long story short, King Saul (the Benjamite) was ordered by YHWH to kill king Agag, son of Amalek, & grandson of Esau but he spared him thus disobeying YHWH. 500 years later YHWH picked a woman of the same tribe of Benjamin to finish the job, she is Esther, and she did it, had Haman (the descendant of king Agag) killed and his 10 sons. All of this happened in Persia … However, the trouble has not ended because the seed of Amalek was so mixed around that region and so we have the Palestinians today a mixture of the seed of Amalek, Arab, Edom & Jordon etc.. No wonder Yahshua called the Canannite woman a dog (Matt.21:28..He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” And in Zacharia – 9:6-16 A mongrel (mixed breed) people shall settle in Ashdod…..

            This piece of history about the Amalekites is a bit complicated so you really have to go slow – scratching your head and pondering at intervals..to understand the genealogy .. LoL!!! but it’s very interesting bcoz when you know this part of past history you will get the complete picture of what’s really happening now and will in the future to Israel – which of course will affect the world. Here is a very good link for study, please do read .. http://www.biblesearchers.com/hebrews/festivals/purimamalekites.shtml

            Lastly, Adonis, in Greek mythology, is the god of beauty and desire, and is a central figure in various MYSTERY RELIGIONS. His religion belonged to women (women literally worshiped him).

        • You are welcome Matthew Perri, I’m glad you took that info to heart. Hebrew is such an amazingly beautiful language there is no end to what you can learn and the more you learn the more hungry you get and the more closer you get to YHWH. I only wish Christians would at least just take a peek into Hebraic study and know how much they are missing. I do feel sad that they don’t.

          However, I was noticing this debate over Paul for a while now. I have a question for you, just curious OK?
          What is it that made you disapprove Paul the self-proclaimed apostle?

          The Hebrew word Shalom means much more than peace, hello or goodbye. In essence it means: Completeness, Wholeness, Health, Peace, Welfare, Safety Soundness, Tranquility, Prosperity, Perfectness, Fullness, Rest, Harmony, The Absence of Agitation or Discord. This is the highest form of greeting someone, so with Shalom I greet you in His Precious Name Yahshua HaMashiach.

          • Hi Bethany,
            Since you asked me how I came to “disapprove of Paul the self-appointed apostle”, I’ll share more of my thinking of this issue.

            “Becoming more like Jesus was” when He walked the earth is my goal. This is recorded in the 4 Gospels, which is why these 4 books are regarded as the highest authority over every other part of the Bible in the “Orthodox” view. I agree with that position.

            When Jesus walked the earth, He never claimed: “I have become all things to all men,” He didn’t TRY to be all things to all men, and He was NOT all things to all men.
            Now, since His resurrection, Jesus has indeed become all things to all men, and no one else, living or dead, or in the future, can ever speak the truth and make that claim about himself. Paul the Pharisee made that boastful claim about himself, and the Antichrist probably will say something like that too- it’s a false claim coming from anyone except the Risen Lord Jesus. So my goal is not to be just like Jesus is, or be like Paul. Rather, it’s becoming more like Jesus was.

            And I agree with you that Jesus is the Torah (the Word) made flesh. Meaning that the 5 Books of the Law of Moses are second priority after the Gospels.

            After that I would put the 2 books of the “Prophecy” written by the Gospel writers Luke and the Apostle John- namely, the Books of Acts, and Revelation. And the Second section of the Old Testament, “The Prophets” would be about the same level of authority.

            On the third (lowest) level is where the Psalms and other “Writings / Scripture” belong, with the corresponding category in the New Testament being the “Letters / Epistles.”

            As you probably know, (especially if you have read my other postings on this website,) as a Jew Jesus saw the Hebrew Scriptures as a collection of writings in 3 categories, in order of priority- Torah, Prophets, Writings.

            Neither Jesus nor anyone else in the pages of the Bible ever used the words “Tanakh”, “Bible”, or “Canon”, or spoke of all these writings put together being “One Book.”

            The 66 books of the Bible is a collection of books with different levels of authority and importance, just as the Tanakh is. That is absolutely how Jesus saw the Hebrew writings of His day, and this should be the general model for how all of us look at the whole Bible today.

            We need to stop seeing the entire 66 books through the tiny lens of one verse, buried in the middle of a personal letter written by a traveling evangelist, who wrote “All Scripture is God-breathed.” We need to stop thinking this one verse “proves” that it’s really “One Book” that is in perfect harmony and agreement if only we are educated enough to understand it (not 66 books) and it’s all “The Word of God” and “God’s Commandments” and “The whole Bible is top priority.”

            As Evangelicals we are trained to think this way. But it’s astounding if you actually stop to consider. How could we be so blind? It is very clear to me that it’s due in large part to an enormous old stronghold of Satan, really going back to the Second Century heretic Marcion. But mixed in with that are pride, greed, fear, demonization of some pastors and other church leaders, and lust for power, because it’s “profitable” to “be like Paul” the Pharisee.

            The New Testament really isn’t that big. I looked in my NIV Bible concordance, and I found all verses in my Bible with words related to “apostle.” There are 6 words, used a total of 88 times.

            If you can first make yourself set aside your own ideas, conscious or unconscious, about what an “apostle” is, set aside your dictionaries whether Greek or English, set aside your commentaries, set aside for a moment Paul’s letters, and instead look at what EVERYONE ELSE said, it’s really quite clear and simple. And if you focus on the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles themselves, it’s crystal clear.

            The Apostles were 12 unique personal WITNESSES of the entire ministry of Jesus, who could testify about HIM based on their personal experience. They had walked together faithfully with Jesus from the time of John the Baptist through all his miracles, death, burial, resurrection, and ascension to heaven. Matthias was appointed to replace Judas as the 12th Apostle, since he was one of only a very few qualified WITNESSES. There are no more Apostles, nor will there ever be any more.

            The key word is “witness” not “sent-one” – according to Jesus and the Original Apostles themselves. And I am choosing to listen to them and accept their definition of the word “Apostle”, not the definition of other men. Of the 6 related words, Paul made up two of them – APOSTLESHIP and SUPER-APOSTLES – and these words appear nowhere else in the Bible except in Paul’s personal letters to the Romans and Corinthians. Paul re-defined the word to include himself in this elite top category.

            Luke also provided a careful chronological record showing the Apostles being appointed in Luke 6:12-16. So were they immediately “sent out?” NO. Please open your Bible and see for yourself. “He went down with them…” and preached “the sermon on the plain.” Then He healed the Centurion’s servant. Then He raised the widow’s son from the dead, spoke about John the Baptist, was anointed by a sinful woman, told the parable of the Sower, calmed the storm on the lake, cast out the Legion of demons, healed a woman from bleeding, raised a girl from the dead. And THEN, 3 chapters later,
            THEN, in Luke chapter 9:1-6, Jesus “sent them out.”

            What about “The Red Letters”? How did Jesus himself use the word “apostle”? I only found 2 places.

            Luke 11:37-54, where Jesus is pronouncing six woes on the Pharisees and experts in the law, and He is actually quoting God the Father.

            Revelation 2:2-3, Where Jesus is commending the church in Ephesus.
            “I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who CLAIM TO BE APOSTLES BUT ARE NOT, and have found them false. You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.”

            I want to be commended by Jesus like this, for testing those who claim to be apostles but are not, and for persevering and enduring hardships for the name of JESUS and not growing weary.

            • Hi Matthew, the space it getting narrow here so please scroll right down to read my response and sorry that the responses are long but there’s history there so take your time to read. Don’t worry, I’m not against you but I’m with you. Be Blessed.

  10. Jesus said He will raise some up to the resurrection of the just and some to the resurrection of the damned…
    Mark 16-16..He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
    2 Thess 2-11,12..And for this cause God shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    God tells us what the delusion is..
    Isaiah 66-4,5..I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name’s sake, said, Let the LORD (baal,anyone but Jesus) be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.

  11. Marianne, Mariel and Matthew P.

    Paul was an excellent teacher to Timothy and thousands upon thousands of other followers of Christ.

    Peter understood this to be true. Peter’s words and his letters are just as inspired by the Spirit as Paul’s.

    The best advise given by Paul is found in this passage,

    “And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others…Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you insight into all this” (2 Timothy 2:2-7).

    So we are to seek the Lord for understanding of His Word – not pagan signs or tablets, white witchcraft or like sources. Seeking such ungodly sources opens up demonic oppression, confusion, illness and some Godly correction.

    As for Paul’s thorn – John has an insight into thorns.

    We all got’m but it does not prevent the Spirit of God to move, if we confess our sins.

    “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1st John 1:8-9).

    Paul’s thorn remained to keep him humble, seeking forgiveness often.

    “Oh what a reached man that I am…” – Paul wrote to the believers in Rome (Romans 7:24). He was a honest preacher, inspired by the Spirit. Amen.

    Matthew P. – I turned you over to the Lord weeks ago and don’t plan to reply to any of your comments.

    Psalm 64

    • DJ,
      I’m glad we both agree with the Apostle John:
      “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.”

      Here is the dance you are doing right now. You’re a good dancer !

      The Evangelical “Mexican Hat Dance”

      Sin is always specific, not general.
      The “Hat” is, “What were Paul’s sins?”

      The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the “Mexican Hat Dance.” (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named “El Jarabe Tapatio.”)

      A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. The man throws his huge sombrero hat on the floor, and the couple dances around it, but never steps on the hat. (The “Hat” is, “what were Paul’s sins?”)

      Here are the basic steps- (there may be one or two other basic steps, but they are very similar to these.)

      What were Paul’s sins?

      STEP 1) Paul said; “I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man.” [1 Timothy 1:13]
      (Response- Those were Saul’s sins, before Jesus called him. What were Paul’s sins as a Christian? )

      STEP 2) Paul said; “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst.” [1 Timothy 1:15]
      (Response- Sin is always specific. What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

      STEP 3) Paul said; “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” [Romans 3:23]
      (Response- Again the same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

      STEP 4) Paul said; “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.” [Philippians 3:12-13]
      (Response- They say third time’s a charm. Same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

      STEP 5) Paul said; “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing.” [Romans 7:15-19]
      (Response- One more time! This is getting boring. Same question; Specifically, what were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? )

      STEP 6) LOOP- REPEAT steps 1 through 5, until your dance partner gives up, the audience gets bored, or the music stops. The rule is- never step on the “Hat,” just keep dancing around it.

  12. You will have no other gods [Elohim – gods, judges, leaders, mediators, &c.], placed before me in my presence, and you are to avow / admit the undivided of my existence and you will not make for yourself any image [man worship &c.] or any manner of likeness in the heavens [star worship, angel worship, &c.] or in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth, you will not bow to them nor serve them.” Yes, ignorance is no excuse.

    • Jay
      Well at least you believe that men can be gods little g. Most do not believe this on this forum. Mankind is a creator and a perversion of the Real God. All man can do is create Evil with his mind and heart and soul. That man is called the devil , satan, the serpent, on and on.

  13. The Scripture plainly says what Pauls thorn was. It was the “Abundance of the Revelation” that he had. Like Christ all the unbelief toward your Message causes “grief and pain and sorrows” over professing Christ yet not knowing Him in His Resurrection. Still wanting to live under the law of Moses and the O.T. Imagine yourself trying to tell all the Jews they did not have to be circumcised. Or keep the Holy Day cause everdy day is a Holy Day when you are IN CHRIST. That is the REST and HOLY DAY. On and on and on. Just like todays church. Its the fullness of time. Unbelief prevails over all the world.

    Paul was a Chosen vessel and Had the “Complete Revelation” for the 1st. Century church age. That is why it was the Ephesian Church age that was first of the 7 ages. Paul also said that after he died. Wolves and False Prophets would take over the flock at Ephesus. It happened just like he said. The Nicolaitian spirit was completed and put into action in 325 AD when Constantine let unconverted pagans call themselves Christians. And it became the “Universal ” pagan Christian church. After Emperial Rome disappeared it became Papal Rome and Vicar of Christ and then called Pope etc.

    To say it plain. Most today do not even understand Paul’s message yet. Because of the Evil influence of the False Brethren in our day. Paul revealed the False Vine woman=Jezebel for what she was before it ever happened as did John as well. Rejection causes Pain and Suffering and Grief.
    All the Prophets and any Man with abundance of “Revelation” has to be built for it and that is why Jeremiah said they had to make their forehead as flint to resist the hardness of Israel. Same today


    Tom York said this on November 19, 2013 at 1:31 am | Reply

  14. Tom,
    Are you saying that Paul was the only one who had the “Complete Revelation”
    and Jesus did NOT have the complete revelation?

  15. Bro. Matthew – Of Course not. None of us can even have a “Revelation” = Faith without Jesus Christ giving it to us. God is the one who called you. Amen. You answer HIS CALL the best you can amen.

    God uses men. Cannot you see that GOD became a MAN in Jesus Christ.
    God created a Body of Flesh for himself and then stepped into it. Making Jesus Christ HIS SON. The Son of God – Same Blood line – The manifestation of the Son of God was manifesting GOD the Father Himself. God had to become a man to fulfill the Kinsmen Redeemer in Rev. chapter 5.

    Jesus came from God- Jesus was the “Logos” of God meaning the Very expression of God in a Flesh body was in Gods Concepts of His Mind before the World was ever created.. You yourself was in the “Concepts” of God and your name written on the book before you was ever born. Think about it Matthew. God chose you not you chose God. Same with Paul

    Read Eph. 4 – God sent Gifts unto man called the 5 fold ministry. Apostles,
    Prophets, Evangelist, Pastors, and Teachers. God uses man to express Gods Character. Hope you see my friend.


    • Tom,
      You are quoting one source – Paul’s letter. And you said that Paul had the “complete revelation.” Why do you believe that?

      Jesus reminded us from the Law that one man’s testimony alone is not valid, and every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Jesus did not exempt even himself from this law. Do you think that somehow Paul is “the exception” and Paul’s words overrule all other parts of the Bible?

      If you read my post above from earlier today, I’ve proved from the text of the Bible that in GOD’s definition, “Apostles” equals “12 personal eye-WITNESSES who could faithfully TESTIFY of their personal experience following Jesus during His entire earthly ministry.”

      That is my general summary of God’s opinion, not my personal idea. My summary isn’t perfect or “the Word of God.” But clearly, to God, “Apostle” does not equal “sent-one,” although that is a secondary meaning.

      Paul redefined the word “apostle” to include himself in this elite top category, and most people today simply accept this human redefinition of the term “apostle” and follow Paul because Paul said so, without thinking.

      This wrong. We should be following Jesus and listening to Jesus first. That would be the groovy thing to do – wouldn’t you agree, man?

      • Give it a rest Matthew Perri. You convince no one with your false perverted teaching.

        Go back to your “orchard “christian” indoctrination center where people are taught to hate Apostle Paul’s teachings (too deep I suppose-hey! let’s throw it all out shall we?) and where all your poor victims,I mean sheep,can come and learn heresy and be an apostate “disciple” destined for hell just like you are.

        However, you can repent of your heresy and perverted teaching that you will be held accountable for.

      • Matthew… read this and wake up..
        Deut. 29-21..And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:Deut. 29-19, 20..And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

        Deut. 29-19, 20..

        • Hello again e1313ruth, Just want to step in here for a moment … Every Scripture has a specific meaning, we cannot just interpret them as per our own understanding. In this case (Deuteronomy – Chs. 29—30), Moses gave these addresses so the new generation of Israelites would not repeat the sins of their fathers (mainly idol worship / demonic practices). He set forth God’s acts for Israel as the basis on which he appealed to the new generation of Israelites to renew the MOSAIC COVENANT (the TANAKH) with HIM. This Covenant is a KETUBAH, a MARRIAGE COVENANT with ALL who were present at the Mount Horeb (Mt. Sinai) — It is not connected to Paul’s letters. Paul was a Pharisee and was brought up in the TALMUD. Check out what the Talmud has to say about gentiles and even Jews who are believers in Yahshua(Jesus) – I was surprised that Deuteronomy was quoted, isn’t this book a part of the Laws of YHWH that the Christians say is obsolete Hmmm??? You guys reject the Covenant (Instructions for our lives) of the Creator – then you will know the severity of the Noahide Laws that are coming soon. Don’t take my word for it but do your research.

          • Deut 31-24…And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
            Deut. 31-26..Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness AGAINST thee.
            Jos. 8-34.. And afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessings and cursings, according to all that is written in the book of the law.

            Gal 3-10..For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
            Daniel 9-11..Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

            Moses 600 plus laws are what causes people to be cursed because no one can keep all of them…..

            Matthew 22-36 through 40…JESUS TWO LOVE LAWS…On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

            And now Bethany and Matthew… Let me show you you in Scripture..

            Matthew 23-2.. Saying Matthew and Bethany .and The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: ..V. 13..But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.V. 14..Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
            V. 15..Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves… TWICE DEAD PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS…

            These same pharisee creeps killed Jesus, Stephen and others for the law of blasphemy, etc.. WERE THESE RIGHT???? They can take their cursed laws and cram them….
            Paul gave us the answer about the law…He said when we love God with our all and our neighbor as our self we do commit adultery, steal, lie, etc…Love fulfills the law as Jesus said….

  16. Matthew I do not think you know who God is…
    Isaiah 43-10..Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    God is telling us that (Christians) are his chosen witnesses that witness that God Himself was FORMED…FORMED MEANS MADE FLESH…

    Jesus chose the witnesses of Isaiah 43-10
    You will be witnesses of me even to the uttermost parts of the earth..

    Everything Jesus did was done to show man the
    example to follow,…His baptism, his temptation ,his addressing God as father, etc…..He came as SON of God so we would believe God has a son and thereby be restored to Adam’s condition before sin which was SON OF GOD..

    The God I know died for me… I do not know a deity named yah that puts law above love nor do I want to know him….

  17. Again Marianne I commend you patience…I lose patience when people work together trying to corrupt others about the Bible.. Matthew, Al, and Bethany all cut from the same cloth…

    • To e1313 – I omitted ‘ruth’ the name of the wonderful woman of the Bible and great, great, great, gr…t grandmother of YAHshua is not suitable for you bcoz of your temperament.

      I am appalled at the anger that is being reflected here by you and others on Matthew, me and Al – We are created by YAHshua and dressed in pure white Linen, the same garment He will wear when He descends 🙂 Thank you for that remark.
      Btw, are blogs and websites that promote the Word meant for wrestling against each other instead of sharing, researching and learning? While there are lots of Wise Christians who listen, verify and learn and walk in truth, there are the Unwise whose ego demands they are right and want to skyrocket above others. The true followers in Yahshua are not called Christians but rather Natzarim(Proselytes). You want to know where the word Christian is derived from? O no, Not by my understanding but by The American Heritage Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary that tells us the etymology for the word CRETIN: cre-tin (kre-tin, kret’n) means; One afflicted with Cretinism. (2) A fool; an idiot. – [French, cretin, — from Swiss French, crestin, CHRISTIAN, = hence human being (an idiot being nonetheless human).] – Cretinism is dwarfism and or retardation. Cretin is simply the word that is derived from the word CHRISTIAN, crestin.
      If you don’t know the true name of the Creator who created you, then how can you follow or worship him?
      … Names of the pagan god Mithras in different languages:
      … CHRISTIAN – the word is Greek, and has a formerly Pagan usage:
      … CHRESTOS MITHRAS – Roman meaning was interchangeable: “good Mithras”, or “holy Mithras” Nimrod is also called Mithras.
      … CHRIST HELIOS – Mandaean
      … CHREISTOS OSIRIS – Alexandrian
      All sacred texts were originally written in Hebrew. All the first “protestants” were Catholics, and they had already been indoctrinated with the Jesuit teachings. What is practically unknown is the fact that there were “Christians” on Earth before YAHusha Messiah was born – and they were Pagans. This Mithras was born on 25-Dec CHRISTmas day – while the true Messiah YAHshua was born on the 1st day of the Feast of Tabernacles in a Sukkah (Tent) and and NOT among cows and sheep that Christians believe.

      Bottom line: The word “Christianity” is not found in the Scriptures at all in the original writings of the Torah, so there is no such thing in reality.
      … Yahshua is Hebrew from the tribe of Yahudah (Judah) hence, his name is NOT “Jesus Christ” no wonder the Jews are not accepting Him for He does not look like one of them, it’s purely the fault of the Christians who named Him Jesus Christ and portray Him like a Caucasian .
      … He taught from the TORAH scroll written purely in Hebrew and NOT from the King James or translated Bibles. Hence, trying to interpret the Scriptures from KJV etc. will never give you a proper understanding.
      … YAH is the shortened name for the holiest One above the entire universe and to say that “I do not know a deity named yah that puts law above love nor do I want to know him….” Is the most IGNORANT and BLASPHEMOUS statement I have ever heard in my life – Its as if saying..”There is no G-d. That takes you back to ‘Cretin/Christian – its just unbelievable to read that!!!
      Better go down on your knees and repent otherwise you will bear the brunt of the Lion of Judah YAHshua HaMashiach.

      • Hey Bethany…Jesus is God…He gave me power over all the power of the enemy… You, Matthew and Al have come to corrupt Christians….

        About the ne CHRISTIANS…
        ACTS 11-26…And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch…..Also…The new testament was written in Greek, not hebrew..

        Do you think the pagans included the apostles as being of their own and that is why they were called Christians… After reading your text I am convinced you are NOT BLIND BUT evil..

        As for following your backward heresay I have never followed any man, only Jesus and His word..

        • Bethany , about the Christmas tree..
          3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

          7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? For TO THEE DOTH IT APPERTAIN : forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.

          The prophet that wrote about the Christmas tree knew it pertained unto God. And that Jesus was GOD…

          • OMG!! Suddenly I feel so sorry for you. You really do not understand the Holy Scriptures and this is detrimental to your soul. The scriptures that you have quoted above is from Jeremiah 10: This is the work of paganism. You must always clarify if your thoughts match with the correct interpretation otherwise you are making the devil happy that he made a fool of you. But anyways, here is the commentary on those scriptures you quoted:

            1) Clarke’s Bible commentary:
            [The customs of the people are vain – חקות chukkoth; the statutes and principles of the science are vain, empty, and illusory. They are founded in nonsense, ignorance, idolatry, and folly.]
            2) Gill’s Bible commentary:
            [[ For the customs of the people are vain,…. Or, “their decrees”, or “statutes”, their determinations and conclusions, founded upon the observation of the STARS; or, their “RITES and CEREMONIES” in RELIGION, in the worship of the SUN and MOON, and the HOSTS of HEAVEN. The Syriac version is, “the IDOLS of the people are nothing”; and which appears by what follows:

            for one cutteth a tree out of the forest (the work of the hands of the workman) with the axe; not for building, or for burning, BUT TO MAKE A god OF; the VANITY, STUPIDITY, and FOLLY of which are manifest, when it is considered that the original of it is a tree that grew in the forest; the matter and substance of it the body and trunk of a tree cut down with an axe, and then hewed with the same, and planed with a plane, and formed into the image of a man, or of some creature; and now, to fall down and worship this must be vanity and madness to the last degree; see Isaiah 44:13.

            If you did not know this; the hewn tree which is then decorated is a worship of the phallus the male organ. Now is that of the Creator? Not At All – it is sheer paganism. So don’t call me names but check it out for yourself.
            Now go have a hot glass of milk and have a good night’s sleep.

            • giving you the same advice I gave ruth

              if you want to present a view, or disagree, please use the format
              you said….
              I disagree….because:
              then give scripture to support your view.
              you either convince them or you don’t.
              if you don’t then FORGET it
              no personal judgments against people.
              god will sort it out

        • Hey! 1313, You are not only filled with sheer IGNORANCE but you are foolish. What are you trying to prove to the world by calling me evil, you think you are righteous therefore, you are conceited. You don’t even know the interpretations of the Holy Scriptures. You try to fit them into your comments but they just don’t fit without knowing the proper interpretation. Get that into your head. You just blasphemed and denied the true name of the of the Holy One of Israel. Go worship your god ‘Jesus’ the Christos, the Mithras, the Sun-god that is what he is and don’t forget to worship Paul as well for it is his teaching that led you to Christos Mithras. The True Savior is YAHSHUA meaning SALVATION of Israel. I will keep hammering that into your thick head until you realize who He is because your soul is at stake here.
          It’s best you don’t respond to me because you have absolutely no wisdom and for heaven’s sake don’t call me Christian – never was. I’m here on the forum to see what I can learn from Marianne and share what I can. Go take a ice cold shower and cool down so that you can be more sane tomorrow.

      • Dear Bethany,

        Regarding your rather long post here about the meaning of the word “Christian”, I am sure that our God, Yahweh the God of Israel and His Son our Savior, are pleased with your efforts to really understand more about him. None of us understand everything, but you have provided some more pieces of the puzzle, and expanded my understanding further.

        One concern I have, for myself and others, as we start understanding the true Hebrew roots of our God, is a tendency for the spellings of The Name to be changing too frequently to keep up. It’s like a piece of software that works fine, but next year it’s “obsolete.” Jesus 1.0, Yeshua 2.0, Yahshua 3.0. etc.

        I’m not criticizing, or saying that YAHshua isn’t better or more accurate. But ultimately, these are all translations anyway. I am very sure that He isn’t offended if we call him Jesus in English- or Spanish, pronounced differently.

        But I think your main point is that “Christ” is not the personal name of God- it’s a title, which can be and has been used to refer to false gods. That is certainly true. Jesus is the one true Christ or Messiah, but there are other false “Christs” around, and we see warnings about that in the pages of the Bible too.

        You write at a very high level of scholarship, and I think you must have access to research sources that most people do not have. I am not a KJV fan, because it’s old English. I believe that looking into the original Hebrew language is something that pastors and teachers should be doing as they prepare to teach from God’s commandments (The Torah) and the testimony of Jesus (The Gospels) as well as the Prophets and the Writings. Of course it’s a lifelong learning process, and I don’t think we can just drop everything and study Hebrew until we are fluent before we attempt to try interpreting the Scriptures.

        In terms of your scholarship about the origins of the word “Christian,” and other related historical comments, some of this is new to me, and I don’t have much research info to specifically disagree with you on most points. I believe that the info you’ve presented is true, or at least partly true, but of course it isn’t the whole picture.

        We do see that Luke recorded in the Bible:
        “For a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
        [Acts 11:26]

        But, this passage from Luke does NOT tell us many things, such as:
        .1) SHOULD the disciples have been called Christians?
        .2) Who called them Christians? Why?
        .3) What does “Christian” mean?
        .4) Were other people called “Christians” previously, before the disciples were called Christians?
        .5) Since this is right after Paul/Saul first went there, does this mean that Paul started a new religion called Christianity for the Gentiles, with himself as the Boss, carrying the self-appointed title “Apostle to the Gentiles”?

        I don’t know the answer to these questions. But clearly Acts 11:26 does not disprove your points. Rather, it seems to provide some evidence that leans in favor of the ideas you’ve presented.

  18. Hi Marianne – (and other followers of our Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah, Son of Yahweh the Most High God.)

    We know that demons are real, and they sometimes go into certain people, and manifest themselves in various ways. This Christian website is open to the public. If true followers of Jesus and true seekers of Jesus are here trying to connect and learn from each other about the things of God, Satan hates that.

    Why would we be surprised if some demonized people give themselves demonic-sounding pseudonyms like “1313” and “beast” and then come in – to accuse, condemn, slander, and attack? To try to cause confusion, chaos, division, misunderstanding, fear, bad feelings, disgust, exhaustion, distrust, and disruption of Christian conversations? To fill the online space with noise, irrelevant information, nonsense, heresy, false accusations, baseless personal attacks, silly questions, and unorthodox personal opinions and viewpoints, repeated over and over without listening to or considering the responses other people have already given them?

    Satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy- and that is what we should expect of some demonized posters on this website. We need to be loving to strangers and patient, like Jesus was. But sometimes, it becomes obvious that some people are simply being unreasonable, they are not listening at all, and they probably are demonized. So you could become worn out and exhausted by them, if you feel you have to carefully reason with them, and answer all their questions.

    We should not give up on the website- just the opposite. We should invest more, with people who have ears to listen and eyes to see, while we try to largely ignore the “noise” in the background.

    “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you!’”
    [John 20:21]

    • matthew

      if all here had the holy spirit there would not be so much name calling and accusing.

      also, there would not be so much wierd thinking….

      I think many of you are guilty of being negative, so try to stay positive…and realize that others have reasonable views as well.

      no one here is holier than the others….

    • Matthew, do you know what transferance means… You are doing it..You are accusing others of what you are guilty of… A dead givaway that it is you who is demonized.. And friend… Whatyou hate are my words and my words are mostly copied and psted from the Scriptures..

      • ok, all people that don’t like “Paul” go to one corner and chat with only that group

        all people in group that like Paul go to the other corner and chat there.

        do not bother each other….all this demon talk is out of hand….

        this message repeated below to catch all subscribers.

    • “Bethany”, oh excuse me, I mean Matthew,

      do you enjoy writing under a female pseudonym so you spew ad naseum, more of your false diatribes about how bad you think Paul is, without appearing to look like you have an agenda?

      Just wondering bud….

      • ok, all people that don’t like “Paul” go to one corner and chat with only that group

        all people in group that like Paul go to the other corner and chat there.

        do not bother each other….all this demon talk is out of hand….

        this message repeated below to catch all subscribers.

      • dear watch

        Bethany is not Matthew….they live in different countries.

        • Have you never heard of IP proxy’s Marianne?

          • you need to control yourself…..leave matthew alone.

            if he bothers you, I will tell him to leave you alone

            • Well it is your blog Marianne so I will respect that, but man are you blind to what’s going on here. The integrity of the truth of Christ is sorely being compromised by you allowing Matthew/Bethany’s lies to stand…

              He ain’t no servant of Christ hun…

              But if you don’t see it…oh well….

              Let’s see “who” shows up next…

  19. Hi Matthew, I don’t like to write in haste so I took my time to respond exclusively to you. However, when I read the other comments that followed your response to me, I thought, O, WOW!! I’m seeing the height of IGNORANCE and STRIFE, and name calling here, rather than sharing, verifying, researching and clearing any ignorance in an amicable manner. I’ve no doubt you will agree when I say “Amicable manner is what Yahshua wants from us if we truly follow Him” but with such discord among brothers and sisters in Yahshua is like the house divided He said that will crumble to the ground .. Matthew 12:25. – However, Matthew, there’s a lot I would like to share with you but will not be able to jot down everything here except some very important things that come to mind. I will include Paul in the second part of this response which you may find interesting but first the importance of the WORD of YHWH.
    ….. well, Matthew, I can see your heart for Jesus and I perfectly understand how you feel about Him and want to be more like Him but there’s one thing I want to point out re. your 2nd paragraph is that, what Yahshua(Jesus) taught & is written in the 4-Books, is the understanding He gave from His very own writings, the 5 Holy Books, The Tanakah which is “the actual Meat of the Bible”, the #1, TOP MOST priority which He Himself wrote with His Fiery Finger on two tablets of – not Granite – but Sapphires, that are STATUTES, which Christians have the audacity to say – “have been made obsolete by the Creator & Writer Himself”. If this is so, then we would not have had YAHSHUA meaning “SALVATION” on earth, (for there is a prophecy made by the Creator Himself of His coming in human form to destroy satan.. (Gen:3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel) – So without Him we would not have had the New Covenant books and the rest of all the books of the Torah/Bible. Btw, I was glad you mentioned the TANAKH and not think like others that they are made obsolete. Keep it up you are on the right track.
    …. However, long after the good Hebrew leaders died those after Joshua, there came some bad leaders from among them, they distorted the Tanakh and led the people astray. This went on for millenniums until Yahshua came to restore the Tanakh back to His people and to the world thru them. He was hated for this and later THEY “the Pharisees friends of the Romans” got Him to be tortured and murdered. Yahshua was and is the Creator and He could have saved Himself but He voluntarily died and let His blood be shed so we could possess His Word, remember His ransom for us, and be with Him someday in Heaven for eternity. So if we believe that Yahshua(Jesus)is a Living, Eternal G-d, then obviously every Word that He has written and taught is a Living Eternal Word and He NEVER made it Obsolete, for He Himself is the Word. Just to enlighten you a bit, many so-called believers hate the words “Tanakh” or “Torah” and say it is the Law and that “ it is a curse to be under the law” this is because they are 100% focused on Paul’s writings and fail to see what Yahshua meant when He said in “Matthew 16:24 “If anyone wants to become my follower, he must deny himself, (of all the worldly pleasures) take up his cross, and follow me..He did not say follow the ‘one’ coming after me. This means since He is SET-APART from all “gods” “all evil” so we also must be set-apart like Him and do exactly ALL what He has Instructed us (through His Talmidim (12 Apostles)….. e.g. Follow His Commandments, His Feasts which are 7-Divine Appointments a rehearsal of His great Return, and …. NOT Xmas, N.Year, Easter, Valentine, Halloween, and the rest of the feasts of the Great Whore of Babylon. Christians who celebrate these feasts are still linked to the Mother of Harlots in Rev.17. These folks when they meet the Great Judge Yahshua face to face … He will say to them,- Matthew 7:21-23- “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22) Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23) And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ – He had also told His Apostles that “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters” (Matt. 12:30). More re. Paul …Continued below…

    • To Matthew Perri – Continued from Part One: Re. PAUL. .. Sorry about the length of this comment but there is interesting history here.
      I’ll start with Genesis. Have you done any study on Mt. Hermon? It is the Amorite name for this mount, also called Ba’al Hermon – remember Lebanon was the center for Ba’al worshp, child sacrifice, cannibalism etc. Refer to Is.14: it was the seat of satan. The reason I mention Mt. Hermon is becoz the 200 Watcher-Angels mentioned in Genesis 6 who saw the daughters of men and lusted after them, came down from heaven and descended on Mt. Hermon. They then forcibly took for themselves these women and utter abomination followed that later brought on the great flood. There was tons of all kinds of evil things that were going on, on Mt. Hermon. Now Mt. Hermon is located around the borders of Lebanon, Syria, and Israel, the most satanic location in that region, and this is exactly where Paul was struck with the blinding light as he was travelling from Damascus thru Mt. Hermon to Jerusalem Acts 9: Questions do arise in the minds of many people such as; was it a vision of Yahshua? Or was it an apparition? There is tons of research I have done on Paul. Paul is shrouded in mystery while Yahshua was not, many good Christian writers as well as rabbis have written about Paul. Here are excerpts of a good article by L.C. Thomas – Read and decide for yourself and keep doing research.
      [[ My second point is the most important of the two, and it shows how the host of heaven has managed to get itself worshipped in the place of God throughout history. In Acts chapter nine the Apostle Paul, who had not been converted yet, was on the road looking for believers in Jesus so that he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. If you are near Damascus on the map above, heading from or toward Jerusalem, you must pass by Mount Hermon to get from one place to the other. Acts 9:3 says as Paul journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven. Everyone who hears this story believes that this light was Jesus except me. The reason I don’t believe it was Jesus is because Acts 9:15 says, But the Lord said unto him (a disciple named Ananias), Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.
      I have a hard time squaring what Jesus is said to have said in Acts 9:15 because of two things that He said in the book of Matthew. In Matthew 12:25-27 Jesus said to the Pharisees, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand? With the thought in mind that Jesus just said He would never contradict Himself I would like to ask, Why would He say what He did to Paul near Damascus when He commanded the original twelve disciples to do just the opposite in Matthew 10:5-7? These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter you not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
      The answer to that question is that Jesus did not appear to Paul on the road near Damascus that day, an apparition from Mount Hermon did. This is a prime example of how the host of heaven has operated over the centuries, and we have been shown without question in these verses how mankind has been duped by the sons of God over the years allowing ourselves to be led away from the truth. It doesn’t matter whether it is an apparition of the Virgin Mother or an imposter claiming to be Jesus, the result is still the same. People end up worshipping the host of heaven rather than God. This was the case at the tower of Babel and it is the case right now. It will continue to be the case right up until that great day when the battle of Armageddon takes place. What you as a believer need to do is to get your head wrapped around this fact, because if you don’t you will perish right along with the host of heaven and Salvation will be lost to you.]] Read more here… http://abrieflookattomorrow.com/crosseyed_mary.htm
      Matthew just a bit of advice checkout other translation don’t depend only on the NIV. There are many better translations that you can find online (full Bibles). I’ll give you some links later if you like. Be Blessed.

      • O Bethany,

        First you pretend to not know apostate Matthew Perri, then suddenly, and you sound a LOT like Matthew Perri fervently defending legalism, Paul bashing and going back under the law..

        Amazing how you and Matthew sound so much alike! Imagine that!

        very interesting…

        Why, you sound so very much like the pharisee Matthew Perri, that you could actually BE Matthew Perri! !


        One wonders …..”Bethany”, you and this apostate false teacher have a lot in common -you both love legalism…you both love to bash Apostle Paul….
        Funny, last time I checked in with Jesus, oh that blessed name, He told me He came to set men free as He fulfilled the works of the Law.

        And He revealed the deep truths to one of His blessed chosen Apostles, that great Apostle Paul who gave us such a beautiful truth and message about amazing grace….Ah, how sweet it is that grace!

        Thank you Jesus for revealing to your chosen vessel Apostle Paul that deep truth about grace and without it, no one would be saved!

        Jesus, you chose just the right vessel Apostle Paul, to show forth that amazing message of grace and because of His revelation, millions are now walking in freedom and blessed forgiveness, knowing Jesus died for that gift of grace.

        Thanks Jesus for revealing that blessed truth to Paul. Now we know.We are forever in your debt.

        Isn’t that message so wonderful “Bethany”? That message of grace that Paul taught us through the Holy Spirit? I hope you have experienced it- it’s truely liberating!

        Or,do you feel you have to earn your salvation? That would be a pity.

        Oh how sweet it is to be free in Jesus and not under the law of works!

      • Hi Bethany,
        Thank you for these 2 long posts. That’s a lot of deep truth to digest! My wife and I appreciate it, and we’ve been discussing some of these things which we did not know before. I’ll have to write later after taking time to consider.

      • Bethany,

        I agree 100% with what you are saying. It is refreshing to hear a kindred spirit affirming so much, in a seeming endless sea of “Babel”-confusion!

        Definition of babel (n)

        Bing Dictionary
        [ báyb’l ]

        1.confused noise: a confused noise, especially the noise of loud unintelligible voices all talking at once

        We are to make Teshuvah (Hebrew understanding), to turn around and return to Yah and His ways.

        In the Greek, we are to repent (saying I’m sorry) and keep going the way we were going.

        Teshuvah brings us back to our foundation. Greek repentance keeps us going forward in error, believing wrongly that all is okay, because we remember we said the repeat after me prayer and that is all that matters and is required=LAWLESSNESS!

        To my Christian brothers and sisters, heed the words of Yah through the prophet Malachi, the last words of the Tanakh that bridges to the Renewed Covenant:

        (4:4) “Remember the Torah of Moshe my servant,
        which I enjoined on him at Horev,
        laws and rulings for all Isra’el.

        (4:5) Look, I will send to you
        Eliyahu the prophet
        before the coming of the great
        and terrible Day of Adonai.

        (4:6) He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children
        and the hearts of the children to their fathers;
        otherwise I will come and strike the land
        with complete destruction.”

        [Look, I will send to you
        Eliyahu the prophet
        before the coming of the great
        and terrible Day of Adonai.]

        Blessings in Messiah Yahshua

        • Hi Al,
          I can relate to your thoughts on Babel.

          I’m not sure what your source is for defining the “Hebrew” definition vs. the “Greek” definition of repentance. But certainly, the correct definition is what you describe as “the (Hebrew understanding), to turn around and return to Yahweh and His ways.”

          I seem to remember from Greek class that repent meant to turn around 180 degrees and go in the opposite direction- but I don’t recall it having any other meaning. I don’t recall it meaning to return TO God and his ways, so it was a bit impersonal and negative, basically saying “don’t do that, don’t go there” but not really saying where I SHOULD go or what I SHOULD do.

          The mindset you describe seems very common in the American church today:
          “going forward in error, believing wrongly that all is okay, because we remember we said the “repeat after me prayer” and that is all that matters.”

          Here is a funny illustration that reflects this warped mindset.
          Back in the 1980’s I used to read a comic strip called “Bloom County” by Berke Breathed. Opus the penguin was the most famous character. There was also a wacky character named “Bill the Cat” who would appear sometimes.

          One time, in a parody of the Fundamentalist TV Evangelist scandals of that era, Bill the Cat became “Fundamentally Oral Bill”, preaching on TV with a pompadour hairdoo, and railing against “penguin lust” and other evil proclivities.

          After a while, a shocking newspaper headline came out:
          “Fundamentally Oral Bill found in love nest with transsexual Bulgarian slave trader. (It was revealed he is also a Democrat.) Will his flock forgive?”

          So “Oral Bill” preaches on TV saying “God has forgivin me- why can’t you?”
          And a stereotypical fundamentalist watching TV says to his wife- “Sell the house- let’s send the money to Fundamentally Oral Bill.”

        • Thank you Al for standing up for the Truth with me. “Endless Sea of Babel” You are right on that one 🙂 That’s exactly it!!

          ….. We are to make Teshuvah (Hebrew understanding), to turn around and return to Yah and His ways…..
          I’ll add in a scripture here 2-Chronicles-7:14 – Seeking His face is in other words ‘returning to Him’.

          I love the all scriptures you have quoted – absolutely correct.

          I quote again our Savior Yahshua’s Words as I quoted to Matthew Perri : (( Matthew 22:14- “Therefore, many are invited, but few of those are chosen to stay.”)) – Well, brother, you know what this invitation means, with whom, and where … So Shalom & Blessings – I’ll see you there!!!

      • Hi Bethany

        About your second long post Re. Paul
        I’m still digesting some of your research.

        However, on one particular point in the long quote you provided, I strongly disagree with L.C. Thomas.
        You wrote:
        “Here are excerpts of a good article by L.C. Thomas – Read and decide for yourself and keep doing research.”

        L.C. Thomas wrote:
        “Why would He [Jesus] say what He did to Paul near Damascus when He commanded the original twelve disciples to do just the opposite in Matthew 10:5-7? These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter you not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

        This is really bad theology on the part of L.C. Thomas.
        Later Jesus told the twelve disciples:
        “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also.”
        [John 10:16]
        And after Jesus rose from the dead, he told his disciples to “go and make disciples of all nations.” [Matthew 28:19]

        Jesus wasn’t commanding his disciples “to do just the opposite” of his original command to them when they were just starting out in ministry. He began with ministry to the Jews, and later expanded it to the Gentiles too. This is consistent with the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings.

        By the way, we need to be very clear about what specifically we mean when we talk about Luke’s record of “what Jesus said to Paul near Damascus.” That is found only in Acts 9.

        However Luke also records Paul’s boastful exaggerated false testimony about his experience in Acts 22 and Acts 26. Those two versions are not what Jesus said to Paul or what really happened, but just Paul’s exaggerated stories about himself, accurately recorded by Luke.

        • Hi Matthew, First of all I apologize that I wrote those long comments which must have bored you to the core. Secondly, even though I am pressed for time, I still thought I would use a little time to respond to your replies. Believe me I started off well to do just that until suddenly your response to Al popped up on my email page. I read it and was quite taken aback at your criticism and that brought a question to my mind “Is Matthew really here to read, research, and learn the truth, or is he here to debate against every comment” from Al & me”? Is it so Matthew? Because then like the others here, you will never learn the truth. May I remind you that Greek was not the language of the Children of Israel but it was Hebrew? Except of course,Hellenistic Jews who spoke Greek but didn’t know Hebrew very well, hence, there were lot of errors in the Greek translation – this is a fact. You’ve got to go deep into Israel’s history to see what exactly happened and how and where those tribes were dispersed. Yahshua spoke and taught in Hebrew for He Himself is the writer of the Tanakh. So trying to compare Greek translation with Hebrew is not going to work. Instead of arguing over each other’s reviews, the best thing is to take what the other says and check it out, but that’s not happening here and so I want no part in this forum anymore for it’s a waste of time for me. I always make a note of things I read and always check it out and that’s how I learn. I believe the Word of the Creator should not be debated upon but we should do our best to understand the Scriptures and practice them.
          It’s unbelievable, folks on this forum are so mixed up with the understanding of the Holy Scriptures and each one has their own interpretation that leads to arguments. However, before I get off this blog for good, I just want to quote Yahshua’s Words:
          (( Matthew 22:14- “Therefore, many are invited, but few of those are chosen to stay.”))
          – Invited where and for what??? This is an extremely IMPORTANT statement Yahshua had made with an extremely IMPORTANT understanding but I’m sure you will want to debate on this as well. Just some friendly advice take it or leave it. Don’t waste your time on arguing, we do not have much time in this world. Prepare for the great return of the Savior Yahshua(Jesus) and educate others. Please note; I have no ill-feelings against you.
          Goodbye Matthew, I pray that Yahshua Himself will enlighten you. Be Blessed.

          • Bethany wrote a small torrent of words to me here, but I don’t think I completely understand what she is saying. Here is my summary of the message that I am receiving from her post here. She seems to be saying to me:

            “I feel strongly that you are wrong about certain things that I believe. But I won’t tell you specifically what. I can’t explain specifically why I think you’re wrong. And I can’t back up my opinions with specific relevant quotes from the Bible. So, I am cutting off the conversation with you, because my mind is made up that I’m right, and anyone who disagrees with me on any point must be a wrong. I don’t have an ear to listen.”

            If anyone else can understand Bethany’s message to me better than I can, please let me know. Marianne’s recommended format of:

            “You said… I disagree because… then back it up with Scripture”
            would be a good method to bring clarity out of the Babel.

    • ok, all people that don’t like “Paul” go to one corner and chat with only that group

      all people in group that like Paul go to the other corner and chat there.

      do not bother each other….all this demon talk is out of hand….

      this message repeated below to catch all subscribers.

  20. To all
    Every believer wants and should desire a chance to speak and to hear and say what they believe. Remember its a “Progressive Revelation” as I have said many, many times on this forum. If you just keep it as a Trinitarian, 3 persons of God, and everything in the Future doctrine as most of you are. You are wrong as well. Having to Speak in tongues to have the Holy Ghost, Baptizing in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is wrong as well. Most all futurist believers do not have a clue to what’s going on. Where does that leave a bunch on this forum as well. Have mercy on people. You can only learn if you listen to something different and compare.

    Then you believe the Eternal burning late of fire where people will burn for eternity. You would have to have Jesus Christ in you to have Eternal life and if you got Jesus you not going to some eternal burning lake of fire. Another doctrinal error most of you do not believe in is “Election”. And once you got the Holy Spirit you are SEALED to the day of redemption. Most of you will laugh at that one. Even though an Apostle wrote it for us in Eph. 4:30 – You do not believe in Prophets either. You do not know what the Mark of the Beast is. Most of you believe in a “Rapture” That you just going to float up into the air in you flesh and blood body and Escape everything. Though everybody in the History of the Bible died. I guess this last generation is a SPECIAL people over all the other Saints of God.

    You still think there is a 7 year tribulation when it has already passed and like Jesus told them in His day – He’s already come and you did not know it. Jesus Comes as a thief in the night. You all believe He is coming in a flesh body. But He has already “come” in His flesh body to die. The 2nd. Coming is Spiritual coming through the Gospel Messages of the 7 church ages. You also believe in a literal 1000 year millennium yet future. But Jesus left us the “Kingdom of God” to Live in when He “COME BACK in the 2nd. Coming and Baptized the 120 bodies that started His 2nd. coming Church.

    Jesus and John’s Message was the “Kingdom of God was at Hand ” When John the Baptist preached his message and Jesus took that SAME MESSAGE right on and died , for our sin and doubt and “Rose Again” and that made it possible for Jesus to Come back into HIS Believers in the Spirit of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost. Making the Church Body the Temple of Lively Stones which took over for the Temple of Stone built by human hands that the Israelites worshipped and Idolized. Meaning you do not believe in the “Kingdom of God NOW” and you all think that is Future as well. I actually feel sorry for you. Even Charismatics and Pentecostals know better than that.

    We do not even know Matthew well enough. To call him a hypocrite, false prophet. Maybe he needs to hear the Truth more and maybe you all need to heed to the Word more yourself. Maybe he has been taught this from his youth up. Just like you all have been . You might not know nothing else either.
    Until you have really studied every doctrine that is in this present day with an Open mind. How do you know. I was closed minded for 10 years and would have believed just like most of you believe now. But the Lord was Merciful to me and showed me the truth. Cause I had a Passion for it. And a Right heart for it. Not bragging on myself. It was all God’s doing.


  21. Marianne satan has come to divide and desroy and lead your flock backward into perdition…An apt scripture for this is…Mark 16-17, 18..And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;

    • Amen, e1313ruth, glad you have eyes of discernment to see it! Divide and conquer. Create doubt in the real simplicity of the Bible and the words contained in it.

      Guess Matthew wants us to hate the truth that all the 66 books of scripture contain.

      Matthew/Bethany is a “jezebel” if I ever saw one!

      • I have warned you twice now.

        let go of the strife or I will have to block you, until you can calm down

        • Marianne the apostates continuously insult me and lie about the Bible.. Watch the beast is a pure angel in comparison to the three apostates who are most definately taking advantage of you and trying to corrupt you and your flock..These three apostates are not just wayward Christians..They are most definately working together and probbly do this in many Christian sites.. They are trying to divide the real Christians..The lie about the Bible with every breathe..

    • best to avoid strife..and just let people go….debates are not changing any minds

  22. ok, all people that don’t like “Paul” go to one corner and chat with only that group

    all people in group that like Paul go to the other corner and chat there.

    do not bother each other….all this demon talk is out of hand….

    this message repeated to catch all subscribers.

    Chat ONLY with those you agree with….

    your disagreements are not changing anyone’s minds

  23. to everyone.

    people have a right to be wrong, as long it is for the right reasons.

    we all are on a journey…we think we know something for a long time, then later we discover new info and change our minds.

    let others take their journey..

    everyone here loves the Lord, so do not stress over differences

    just say your peace, and why you think it, and then LET it GO

  24. I am amazed at how satan has infiltrated Christianity..I can see now that only the elect will be saved from all the delusional lies satan is using..When Jesus said false Christ would abound he was speaking of people like Al, Bethany and Matthew..They are trying to drag people backward into the old covenant laws and curses…..Moses saw the backside of God during his anger I believe… Hagar also say the backside of God… The Bible speaks of going backward into perdition.. I am pretty sure that is what the 3 apostates are trying to accomplish… I doubt they know the beast which is Islam also goes into perdition and they most definately teach the old covenant laws and ordinances..Rev. 17-11..

    These two verses shows exactly what going backward into perdition means..
    Hebrews 10-38, 39..Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

    • The two verses of Hebrews 10-38, 39 say by faith or going backward into old covenant cursed ordinances and laws..
      Look up perdition in the Bible… 2 thess. 2 -3 speaks of the sons of perdition…These are revealed when they fall away from Christ and go backward into perdition……Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;…Son of perdition means the devil lives in these…They are sons of satan…

      • That’s right e1313ruth. Going back under the law is to say Christ died in vain. Judiazers they are. They go backward into perdition.They do not know Christ nor do they love Him. Anyone can “say” they follow Jesus.

        A lot of pretenders do just that.

        You know someone by their fruit. The bad fruit (bad figs) you see from him/them on the forum is the false teaching they try to push over and over again. They work at it. And work at it. They want weak minded folks to doubt the simplicity of the truth of scripture.They are sons of satan.

        It is apparent who Jesus’s true followers are and who are not, for those who have eyes to see. Even if Jesus’s true children disagree on certain subjects, they know and hear their Master’s voice and another they will not follow.

        These apostates follow “another” Jesus of their own making. Not the true and Living God. They haven’t come into a living relationship with Him. They just follow the “letter of the law” but don’t know it’s heart. Jesus is the heart of the law and He chose Paul to teach about His love, grace and mercy- that comes from His heart

        It’s sad for them because on that day Jesus is going to say “I never knew you. Depart from me you “workers” of iniquity”

      • ruth

        there is a way to obey the law, in love, and not be legalistic or go into perdition.

        • Yes Marianne…..I an not against the10 commandment laws…It is the 630 ordinances written by moses that are a curse….However when people love as Jesus and Paul said they do not break the 10 commandments..

    • if you want to present a view, or disagree, please use the format

      you said….

      I disagree….because:

      then give scripture to support your view.

      you either convince them or you don’t.

      if you don’t then FORGET it

      no personal judgments against people.

      god will sort it out

      • Hi Marianne,
        Thank you for bringing some needed order to this playground brawl 😉
        Your idea here makes complete sense, and I agree.

        I think the underlying reason for such violent disagreement is that people have different standards for “what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.” But they don’t realize it!

        Many professing Christians would say that their only standard is “The Bible,” and “the Bible says this, I believe it, that settles it.” Practically speaking they act as if The Bible is God, every word in the 66 books is the Word of God, the Voice of God, the Commandments of God, and any verse can be taken alone out of context and it means whatever I say it means- without comparing it with the words of Jesus, the Law of Moses, or the Prophets.

        I accept the text of the “66 Books of the Bible” and we are all using similar translations. I am not here to say that certain books should be “removed” or “added” to “the Bible”, or to insist on a certain translation or reject another translation. Although I am not very familiar with the new Messianic translations coming out, I know that some of them capture a certain richness from the original Hebrew that may be missing in the more Gentile-oriented Bibles. But, NIV, NASB, NKJV, KJV, and Amplified are all good translations, and have their strong and weak points. I don’t want to get sidetracked into a big debate about the translations right here.

        I want to focus on the PRIORITY and AUTHORITY levels in the existing texts of the Scriptures we all accept, specifically among the 66 Books of the Bible.

        For Jesus, the priority of the Hebrew Scriptures was clear.
        .1) Torah- the Law of Moses
        .2) Prophets
        .3) Writings (Scripture)

        The Eastern Orthodox view on this particular issue, which I hold, is that the 4 New Testament Gospels are the top priority, above everything else in the Bible. So Paul’s personal letters are not “The Word of God” or “The Commandments of God” even though they are “in the Bible” as “Scripture” near the bottom of the priority list in the New Testament.

        At my old school, Dallas Theological Seminary, we used to say we should “interpret Scripture with Scripture.” Yes, but with WHICH “Scripture”? The underlying unstated assumption is that every word in the 66 books of the Bible is equal in authority, importance, and priority, and every word somehow “harmonizes” together into one voice, which is “inerrant”. So if Paul wrote something that’s “in the Bible” then by definition it “must be true” even if it directly contradicts the teaching of Jesus- because Paul the evangelist wrote in the middle of a personal letter “All Scripture is God-breathed,” and this one verse controls and overrides every other verse in the 66 books of the Bible. So Evangelicals are on the endless merry-go-round of Paul the Pharisee, reading Paul’s personal letters and giving their interpretation of “what Paul really meant.” Meanwhile, they largely ignore the testimony of Jesus (the Gospels), the Law of Moses, and the Prophets. They interpret Paul with Paul, as if Paul does not need another witness to back him up.

        There are countless examples of this over-emphasis on Paul in Evangelical churches. Recently I know of 2 unrelated churches that were spending an entire year preaching weekly through one of Paul’s short personal letters (Ephesians.)

        I heard another sermon recently where the printed sermon outline contained 7 passages from the Bible. 4 from Paul’s letters to the Corinthians, 2 from Proverbs, and only 1 (four verses) from Gospel of Luke. It’s a stretch to say this is following Jesus. It would be more accurate to call it “Paulism.” The voice of Paul is brainwashing people, and drowning out the Voice of God, which is the Voice of Jesus the Jewish Messiah.

        This concept of “The Bible” as “One Book” which is the unified “Voice of God” is not found in the pages of the Bible itself. It only came about hundreds of years after it was written.

        I’ve written dozens of related posts on this site, beginning with these:
        If anyone wants to implement Marianne’s format and has ears to listen, I also have ears to listen, dialogue, and grow, learning to become more like Jesus was.




  25. Speaking of perdition….1 Ti 6-9…But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which DROWN men in destruction and perdition….Note the words temptation and snare!!!!! And DROWN

    Rev 12…The remaining congregation that is not fooled by the Islamic dragon and is hidden in the wilderness, Satan continues his temptation…
    Rev 12-15..And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a FLOOD after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood….
    Sure looks like after Satan failed to fool these with the Islam lie tried to drown them them with the perdition lie…Which certainly appears to be to live by law, not by faith which is most definitely going backward..

  26. Nite Marianne….

  27. To all – I do speak in tongue’s and have for years but its just “not THEE” Evidence” that the Holy Spirit lives in you. It can be faked as well. Just as Moses snake Had God backing it cause it was the real deal. The Magicians snakes were fakes of the real.

    Their are 8 other gifts in Cor. 12 that are just as much a “Evidence” as tongues are.

    The Only thing that Anti-Christ or Satan’s church cannot do. Is fake the “True word of God”.

    Have a good day. ty

    • Hi Tom,
      Yes, AN Evidence, (which might be faked like other gifts) but not THEE Evidence.
      It’s great to see someone else with what should be common sense- between the extremes of “if you don’t have MY gift, you aren’t filled with the Holy Spirit” and “the Gifts have ceased.”

  28. The Universal Church has brought paganism into the Christian faith. We can see the division it brings with the posts above.

    Christmas was once a pagan Holiday to the Sun god, or rebirth of the Sun god. Easter is a pagan Goddess spring festival.

    Christ was most likely born in the fall as Shepard’s were tending their flocks. The last day of Passover is what we as Christians should be rejoicing in as Christ died for our sins so we would not have to. The blood of the lamb the Jews used over their door posts in Egypt.

    Halloween is a combination of many pagan practices now. Once, not to long ago it was a fall festival of happiness sort of like Thanksgiving when the wood was chopped, the food canned, and the calf slaughtered. Perhaps, the hog too. But, now Halloween is so full of evil, it seems to be of Lucifer. Just like the other pagan practices brought into the Roman faith.

    There are other examples, but this shows my point. Up until the last 150 years most people could not read, or write. These above examples of paganism were used to move pagans, our ancestors, to worship incorrectly. Now, through tradition it is hard to get rid of.

    We must remember where these things came from, and we must tell our children how true Christians worship G-d the Father in Christ name. Christ, the word made flesh who was murdered for human sin, so we can live eternally.

    If there is not to much dissatisfaction with my post, perhaps we can all come closer as children of G-d.

    • Leatherneck,
      You are right about all these pagan holidays. I feel like I’ve had blinders on about this until very recently. Now it feels like my (and my wife’s) eyes are open, but when we look around here in Los Angeles, everyone else we see is still blind.

  29. Leatherneck you are right on target = When I seen the Great Big Easter Bunny sitting beside Obama on Passover 2012 or 13?- it made me sick. And was a put down to Christianity for the Muslim people and the rest of the whole world to see. Of course the pres. had this great big smile on his face. He loved it you could tell.

    The Worst translation in the Bible is when the translators called the Passover of Christ = Easter in the book of Acts. What a pity and Disgrace.
    Christmas was not even celebrated in America until 1850 somewhere around there. Anti-Christ will do anything to get the “Name of Jesus” out of the Light and make it into darkness. Even create a Great big fat santa that gives presents away. Our Forefathers of faith would “roll over in their graves” as they say. If they knew that. Can you imagine the Apostles getting together and have a great big – santa or easter bunny sitting in their church’s. And today’s Christians will hate you for that one. oh well.


  30. Matthew 20-16..
    So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
    Does this mean the first are Jews and the last are Christians??? Who exactly are the first and the last and the division over wages for service???
    Matthew 22-8 -12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

    13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    14 For many are called, but few are chosen…These verses show clearly who is chosen and who is not chosen..

  31. to all
    You are a chosen generation, Kings and Priest not of a Future coming Kingdom but of the one that is here right now. The one that Jesus Christ slayed satan for you to be a Royal priest hood of Kings and Priest, a Peculiar people, Jeremiah, David etc etc. God knew them before they was ever born. I was too. And you was to 1313. Rev. 1:7 was Acts 1 pertains to the Kingdom of God and Chapter 2 they are receiving the Kingdom of God in them. Then no more fear, their Shadows healing lame and sick people. The Gospel of the “Kingdom” preached with power and authority by Supernatural Heavenly language spoke to thousands and they understood what was being said.

    As Adam had at the beginning before he fell into sin. Its all been restored by the Resurrection and Blood/Grace of Jesus Christ . Then John the Divine wrote the book of Revelation. The summary of all that happen from A.D 30 to 70 A.D. was wrote down by John the Divine on the Isle of Patmos. He was there and saw it happen. So we should know the same thing will happen in our day. Just put in different names and more people and you got the same thing getting ready to happen in our last Age as well. We have our Nero’s today all around us. We got the “Christian Papal Roman Empire” with thier Pontiff Maximus Emperor in power as the “Man of Sin” that “sits in the Temple” of stone and flesh saying he is the “replacement” for Christ. We have the People so deceived by “False anointed ones” Paul taught among others that WE ARE THE TEMPLE THAT GOD DWELLS IN NOW. A building not made by hands. Temple worship is OVER. It was only a place to visit. And the Jew made it into an Idol. It had to be destroyed. Never was Gods intention forever to life in a Temple made by mankinds hands.

    Matt. 24. Christ said beware of FALSE PROPHETS. That call themselves CHRISTIANS not Muslims. The church ages are pagans going into Christianity. Also real believers being deceived by False anointed prophets. Going astray not Muslims in the majority. Its a very, very Deceiving time to say the least. Muslims are anointed by hate and their own prophet. Muslims tactics have not changed that much since the dark ages. But Romanism has.

    It got friendly and the “wound become healed” Rev. 13 as to say by infiltrating and ruling with false doctrines in the protestant church’s AGAIN. Catholicism has won the war with it’s rival Protestant and it is under Romanism as well now. CC is the Head leader of all religions right now in the nations. Im talking “Pagan Christianity” at its best.

    Its absolutely Christianity that is in BIG trouble. By thousands of false anointed prophets everywhere. Every block or two in the cities is a shrine , every TV channel pretty near. We have shrines and crosses on top of buildings everywhere in every city. And know nothing about Jesus Christ and His Spirit living IN YOU as the Kingdom of God was given to man again to live a Holy Life with Authority, and Power. Defeating the devil.
    We are to busy with everything but Bible study.


    • Christ has not slain Old Knob. Christ has shown G-d’s laws are just, and exposed the Dragon as a liar.

      The false god of this world system will be bound a 1000 years soon, but it is not dead. It accuses us in front of G-d the Father, and will soon be thrown out of heaven forever. Then, we will see the false second coming of Jesus that mislead even the elect.

      What Bible are you reading lighthouse?

  32. A current real-world example of “Paul worship” in a specific local church.
    (The Christian pastor is bound in spirit by the “evil spirit of Paul”. I think it would be Biblically accurate to say that he is probably demonized. Here is why I think that.)

    In the Sunday morning sermon, the pastor said,
    Quote: “Paul wrote two thirds of the New Testament.”

    Two thirds? Where is that number coming from? Here are two possible answers.

    .1) The pastor personally spends two thirds of his time in the Bible reading Paul’s personal letters, and Luke’s biographical record of Paul in the Book of Acts.

    .2) This was a Freudian slip from a demon, referring back to the first “New Testament” that ever came out, put together and edited by the Second Century Heretic Marcion. (He was excommunicated by the followers of Jesus.)

    Marcion’s so-called “New Testament” contained nothing but an abbreviated Gospel of Luke, and 10 of Paul’s personal letters (all Paul’s letters from our current New Testament, except 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.) This was Marcion’s entire “Bible.” He said the “Old Testament’ was just that- old and irrelevant, and not about the “God of love” that Paul preached.

    In truth, Paul didn’t write 2/3 of our New Testament. Over the years, I have heard numerous Bible teachers, many of whom call themselves “pastors,” say things like “Paul wrote half the New Testament” or “Paul wrote most of the New Testament.” Some of them are internationally know, and on the radio.

    Our Bible did not originally have chapter and verse divisions, but these man-made divisions can be helpful in bringing order if used correctly and not abused. I don’t have time to count all the words or all the letters in the New Testament, whether in Greek or another language. But I counted the chapters, and I reckon Paul is at 33.4% by chapter count. You can let me know if I miscounted.

    Also, all Paul’s letters were personal letters to specific churches or individuals, rather than having stated or implied general authority over the church at large. So we should not blindly exaggerate, giving Paul twice as much credit as he deserves, and implying that since he wrote so much, everything he did must have been right, and everything he said and wrote must be true.

    The printed sermon notes for the pastor’s Sunday morning message contained 5 Scripture passages.
    1 from a letter of Paul,
    3 from three different Psalms, and
    1 from Gospel of Luke about the testimony of Jesus (the words and actions of Jesus in a particular situation.)

    In his sermon, the pastor spent quite a bit of time talking about his own personal experience 40 years ago, about how great Paul was, and comparing himself with Paul. He talked about Luke’s narrative regarding Paul in Acts 27, where Paul weathered a storm, and was bitten by a snake, but shook it off and wasn’t harmed.

    The clear implication was, “Paul was always in the will of God, and God protected him, so if Paul did something it must have been right, and if Paul said or wrote something it must be true, therefore if you try to evaluate or examine Paul or his teachings in any way, you are attacking God. And I’m like Paul.” This demonic logic is almost identical to what Muslims believe about the self-proclaimed prophet, Muhammad – because of Muhammad’s writings about himself, and his teachings, the Koran.

    That’s why some violent Muslims in Egypt will say; “we are ready to defend The Prophet” and wave their Korans in the air before they go attack “infidels” who are guilty of “blasphemy” against “The Prophet” Muhammad. The “evil spirit of Paul” in the Evangelical church operates in essentially the same way regarding their idol, “The Apostle to the Gentiles” Paul. But the forms of attack are different.

    I don’t dispute that God was with Paul in Acts 27- after Paul had finally, grudgingly repented of his long journey of disobedience to Jerusalem, and wasted a couple of years in prison. (Paul also wasted the time, resources, and energy of a lot of other people by stubbornly insisting on disobeying God and joining & commandeering the team going to Jerusalem. In fact, Paul was specifically told, by Jesus and the Holy Spirit no less, to get out of Jerusalem, go far away to the Gentiles, and stay out of Jerusalem.) So after Paul finally obeyed, God was with Paul again in Acts 27. It’s a happy ending.

    Back to this Paulist Pastor’s sermon:
    After reading and discussing passages from 3 Psalms, and 1 of Paul’s letters, he comes to the testimony of Jesus in Gospel of Luke, and says:
    Quote: “I’m not going to read it. You can read it at home.”

    Then he spent a couple minutes giving his personal spin on the passage we just DIDN”T READ, and fairly shortly the “sermon” was over….

    So the Word of God was completely absent from this “message” even though the pastor “used the Bible.” Nothing from the Torah, the Law of Moses, the word of God. Nothing from the Prophets. Nothing from the Gospels, the Torah made flesh, the Word of God in the person of Jesus the Christ, the Jewish Messiah, Son of Yahweh the Most High God. The Voice of God, the Voice of Jesus, was completely absent!

    “The priests did not ask, ‘Where is the LORD Yahweh?’
    Those who deal with the law did not know me;
    The leaders rebelled against me.
    The prophets prophesied by PAUL, following worthless idols.”
    [Jeremiah 2:8]

  33. Matthew
    A current real-world example of “Paul worship” in a specific local church.
    (The Christian pastor is bound in spirit by the “evil spirit of Paul”. I think it would be Biblically accurate to say that he is probably demonized. Here is why I think that.)

    Do you know what blasphemy of holy ghost is????
    It is when you accuse the holy ghost of being satan…The pharisees accused Jesus of healing via beelzebub..They said he had an unclean spirit…
    Matt. 3-29, 30… But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
    Mohammed/satan said he was the Holy Ghost comforter… ..You said Paul was demonized…You are saying Holy ghost is satan… It works both way… whether you say holy ghost is satan or satan is holy ghost…You best be careful…

    I am beginning to thin you are one of the false christs of matthew 24..

  34. Matthew
    This is not even remotely true….the Torah made flesh,
    It says IN THE BEGINNING….locate the beginning and you will know who the word was that was made flesh…

    Genesis 1-1..In the BEGINING God created the heaven and the earth. Matthew do you think god’s memory is so bad he forgot when the beginning was…

    John 1
    In the BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



    Did you know Abraham had the Gospel preached to him..NOT THE TORAH , NOT THE LAW, BUT THE GOSPEL..
    1Gal. 3-8..And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    • This spirit will quote scriptures or show you scriptures til the cows come home!!! They can’t give you enough scriptures!

      You see them on your posts, in your comments.
      They not only will leave one comment but come back and leave another and yet another! They want to control YOUR POST!

      They want all the attention instead of you! Their goal is to distract the others from the real topic!
      They want to get everyone off track, therefore causing confusion in the end……and they do!

      It also works through a SPIRIT OF PRIDE, HAUGHTINESS!
      People who operate with these spirits usually have a tremendous amount of pride!

      They think they are better than everyone else because “they know the word of God” better than anyone!
      They always try and control the conversation, by telling you endless facts why they are right! They never stop talking!

  35. Leatherneck and all
    “the concrete mode of existence of sinful man, can sometimes be identified with sin as the ‘body of sin’ (Rom.6:6), the ‘body of flesh’ (Col.2:11), the ‘body of death’ (Rom.7:24). Accordingly, the life from Christ by the Holy Spirit can be typified as a ‘doing away with the body of sin’, ‘putting off of the body of the flesh, ‘putting to death the earthly members’, ‘deliverance from the body of this death’ (Rom.6:6; Col.2:11; 3:5; Rom.7:24)… Yet still alive while on earth

    “This is what Jesus did for ALL born again Christians”
    “in His death, the many who inhered in him died too, and indeed the whole body of sin, the whole company of sinners into which he incorporated himself to make their guilt and their judgment his own, that through his death he might destroy the body of sin, redeem them from the power of guilt and death, and through his resurrection raise them up as the new Israel”= The Kingdom of God Matt. 6:33 –

    You said – Jesus Exposed the Dragon as a liar. He not only exposed the dragon Hid death, burial, and Resurrection killed that “dragon” that lived in you.

    You Said – The false god of this world system will be bound a 1000 years soon, but it is not dead. It accuses us in front of G-d the Father, and will soon be thrown out of heaven forever.

    COL. 3:3-5 For ye are “dead”, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    4. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. = ( Has Christ “appeared” to you- if not – then you are not a Christian. Christians have the power to do verse’s 5 & 6 by the Power of the Holy Spirit.)
    5. ¶ Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6. For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

    You Said – Then, we will see the “false second coming of Jesus” that mislead even the elect. Yes you right on some of this. The 2nd. coming will not be what people think it is. But the “elect Lady” will not be deceived to the point of losing their salvation. Some adults have minds of children, and babies and can go no further. Only God knows who they are. But the Lord told us we should be as Wise as a serpent. Only Wise will see it Daniel said.

    Also the 1,000 years you talking about. Has already been 2,000 years or 2 days ago. As a 1,000 years is as a day. Yes that is spiritual. Peter said it not me. That Day is the Day of the Lord in YOUR LIFE TIME – I hope you will see that as well. Your Eternal life, Soul, and body has no time except for while in the flesh body where Christ lives till He is done with you. A complete life for a human has never reached 1,000 years old. That was the O.T days and calling. But Christ killing that ole devil of death. Cannot hinder us now. We past the curtain of Time and live in Eternity. While we live on this planet. My “old man is dead” and gone, According to the real Gospel message. Its in the sea of forgetfulness – My sea is – clear as glass before the thrown room of my God. My Old raging seas have been silenced by the Grace and Power of Almighty God.

    If your bible does not say what I just sent you. Then your Bible is wrong.
    Let the light shine in your house always.


  36. To Leatherneck and all who want the truth

    Some, wrongly expect a superman Antichrist at the end of the Age who is wounded—then healed—based on Revelation 13:12-15. Is this reasonable? According to this scenario, the Antichrist superman is killed. Then this Antichrist superman is miraculously raised from death to life. How preposterous. Only the power of the Heavenly Father can raise a being to life. (Even Jesus had to pray for the Father’s power to raise Lazarus. John 11:41-44) Certainly, the Heavenly Father would not raise an Antichrist superman to life! And no amount of satanic power can raise the dead to life. (In view of this obvious problem, some conclude the Antichrist man will just seem to die and then be revived.)

    Then according to this scenario, the Two-Horned Beast/False Prophet—another individual who possesses great satanic power— makes an “image of the beast.” They claim the image will be a statue likeness of the superman Antichrist. Using satanic power, the Two-Horned Beast/False Prophet will then cause this statue to come to life and speak. All who would not worship him would be killed. The absurdity grows…this scenario is not anticipating a statue becoming mechanically or electronically animated. (That would not be a miraculous phenomenon.) The claim is satanic power will infuse life into this statue transforming it into a living creature—a human-type being. This is impossible. Only the power of God can create a living being.
    Reason returns to interpretation when we realize that these prophecies in Revelation are highly symbolic. The language of Revelation is consistently symbolic. Just as the Leopard Beast is symbolic of Papacy, a system, so the Two-Horned Beast and the Image of the Beast are also church-state systems. Exercising similar power as the Papacy and working together with the Papacy, the Image of the Beast will probably be a Protestant federation united with civil government.

    While it is unreasonable to suppose satanic power creating a human-type being, it is customary to speak of organizations “dying” or one organization putting “life” into another organization. The Papal Leopard Beast, the Two-Horned Beast and the Image of the Beast interpreted as organizations, harmonizes with the highly symbolic terminology of Revelation 13. A literal superman Antichrist scenario does not.


  37. Ignorance in the Pulpit on Sunday Morning

    The Pastor said, Quote:
    “There was only one tree in the middle of the garden.”
    (I believe he also added: “God told them not to touch it.”)

    The pastor didn’t READ the account of the Garden of Eden, but he did spend several minutes talking ABOUT it instead.

    Where did the pastor get this mistaken idea? Simple.
    By listening to the voice of Eve [Genesis 3:3]
    ignoring the voice of God [Genesis 2:17]
    and ignoring the accurate record of the facts in the text of the narrative itself. [Genesis 2:9 & 3:24]

    Before you protest “but I always thought….” why not take 2 minutes and see for yourself? Open up your Bible to the beginning. These 4 verses are all in the second and third chapter of the first book, Genesis, and I listed them here.

    The Bible recorded Eve saying something in Genesis 3:3. The Bible records all kinds of people saying all kinds of things from Genesis to Revelation. That does not necessarily mean that what Eve said was the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth just because “it’s in the Bible.”

    The pastor who preached this ignorance from the pulpit was not young, untrained, or inexperienced. Rather, back in 1973 he was in school getting formal academic Bible training, and he has been preaching and teaching since then- for 40 years!

    How could this pastor be so ignorant of the essential facts in this simple foundational story that billions of people around the world have heard of, even many non-Christians? I think the answer is spiritual blindness- an unwillingness to open the Bible, read it, and think for himself.

    He is deaf to the actual Word of God, the true Voice of God recorded in the Bible. Instead he listens to the (sometimes inaccurate) voices of men (or women) that are recorded accurately in the pages of the Bible, he listens to the (sometimes inaccurate) opinions of men about the Bible, and he parrots these voices of men, proclaiming “this is the word of God.”

    A sermon “from the Bible” where the voice of God is absent.

    The printed sermon outline quoted 7 passages from the Bible:
    John 1:29, Romans 6:23, Isaiah 53:5-7, 2 Corinthians 5:17-21, Romans 5:8, Romans 3:23, 1 Juan 1:9.

    So… we have the voice of John the Baptist talking ABOUT Jesus,
    The voice of the Prophet Isaiah talking ABOUT Jesus,
    The voice of the Apostle John talking ABOUT Jesus,
    And 4 quotes of the voice of Paul from his personal letters to the Romans and Corinthians.

    Where is the voice of God, the voice of Jesus, The Word of God, God’s commandments (the teaching in the Torah) the Law of Moses, and the testimony of Jesus (The Torah made flesh)? None of these parts of the Bible were read for the sermon- even though the pastor read 7 passages “from the Bible” insisting that it’s “the word of God.”

    The Bible contains the Word of God, primarily in the Gospels, the Law of Moses, and the Prophets. But the 66 Books of our Bible also contain an accurate record of a lot of sinful human experience, things that people said, did, and wrote that were wrong. The Bible was never given to us a “One Book” where every word in the 66 Books is “The One Voice of God” which is in perfect harmony, and equally authoritative. No. That would be making “the Bible” into a god.

  38. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us..

    The Scriptures also tell us Jesus is that spirit that wrote the Bible through the prophets..

    As for the word of God, man is born again of the word of God…
    1 Peter 1-23, 25,,Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. The torah leads to death , not to life forever…
    Jesus was not the torah made flesh..Prove me wrong!!!!

    • “From morning till evening he [Paul] explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about JESUS from the LAW OF MOSES and from the Prophets.” [Acts 28:23]

      The Law of Moses = the Torah.
      Are you saying that Paul became an apostate and was going backwards leading people to death through the Torah at the end of his recorded ministry in the Bible? Are you saying that “Paul was wrong” to be teaching the Torah?

  39. The first five books of the Bible are not necessary for salvation….As for Moses and Jesus, Moses as did many prophets prophsied of Jesus…As for the I AM THAT I AM that God said to Moses… I think He was saying I AM that I AM of john 8-58…
    I read the entire Bible …..It all relates….The ordinances were however nailed to Jesus cross….The ten commandments are fulfilled by the two love laws..That leaves one thing in the old testament…History…no salvation…
    But as I said the whole Bible relates…Like the sin of Cain being the same sin as the last generation….Or the fact that the dragon beast is the old serpent aka satan in the garden of Eden…

    Plus I know nothing of Moses wittnessing of the kingdom of God unless it was the promise land they never attained..

    • Genesis 3:15
      God makes a promise of coming salvation in the Garden of Eden.

      Satan will be defeated, and the Messiah will have his heel nailed to the cross. So if you have ears to hear and eyes to see, read it, and you will know.

  40. I guess the Jesus I know is not the same one you know Matthew…The one I know loved sinful man enought to die for them and pay the death penalty and the sin penalty…Plus this Jesus i know knows we are all pretty dumb in comparison to Him and He does not condemn us because of our stupidity..If He did we would all be lost….God said to Adam in Genesis 3-22…”Behold the man has become like one of us in understanding good and evil.”..Adam became like the serpent that taught him his versions of what is good and what is evil… Adam thought he was as wise as God as the serpent had said, but Adam was in reality now like the serpent in understanding….NO ONE in this condition can understand God’s word…..
    Only that which has been revealed….

    • Dear 1313 Ruth,

      I’m not completely sure which “Jesus” you know. But it is probably the “Jesus” created in the carnal mind of Paul the Pharisee because he never knew Jesus in the flesh personally and didn’t know any better, until near the end of his life. (I’m not saying that Paul was never saved, just that Paul was wrong about a lot of things.)

      If you have an ear to hear, you can look at this article to better understand where some of your ideas came from. (This article isn’t perfect, and it isn’t The Word of God of course…)


  41. I use a lot of time searching for knowledge. I have visited three heaven of heavens in spirit, I have been revealed many secrets of darkness. I have visited JW meetings ocaccionaly and I am still ignorant. Only if I would have change to join to some congregation perfectly and visit every meeting I could perhaps get rid of ignorance. I mean that it is real difficult task to get rid of ignorance even if God does not bear those times of ignorance any longer. And it may take tens of years within congregation and still ignorance does not vanish at once. A real difficult task. I have heard that they have organized a press office in New Jerushalem. Perhaps just because of this task.

  42. JW’s meaning Jehovah’s Witnesses is a cult…. They not only have changed to Bible to prove two gods but their doctrines are not according to the Bible… jW’s lead people into the dark… I know…My sister was a JW..

  43. Jesus is “The Word of God” “The Word made flesh.”

    What does that mean exactly? Well, I can’t improve on the words of Jesus, (and I don’t think I should try to…) So I’ll let Jesus speak in his own voice:

    “Everything must be fulfilled that is WRITTEN ABOUT ME in the LAW OF MOSES, the PROPHETS and the PSALMS.

  44. Matthew,
    Genesis 3:15
    God makes a promise of coming salvation in the Garden of Eden.

    Satan will be defeated, and the Messiah will have his heel nailed to the cross. So if you have ears to hear and eyes to see, read it, and you will know…


    Genesis 3-15..And I will put ENMITY between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    You are 100 % wrong about Genesis 3-15..It has nothing to do with salvation…Genesis 3-15 is about a battle between the woman (the church) and Satan aka the dragon of Rev 12…Revelation 12 is about this battle…. .Revelation 9 shows that the dragon is that old serpent , aka Satan of Genesis 3..

    Revelation 12 17 shows Satan continuing to make war against remnant of the SEED OF THE WOMAN…

    .Bruising the heel occurs when our feet which are clad with the gospel of Christ. are made bare when we believe lies and our heels (feet) become bare….

    Satan’s head is bruised when God reveals all his lies down to the foundation…This information is in scriptures.

    Rev. 12 shows the dragon’s tail (false prophets) cast one third of the stars of her crown down to the earth..these stars are the congregation…The woman is the church…These one third have forsaken the gospel of Christ that clads their feet for the Koran lie and consequently become bruised..

    The dragon’s (aka Satan) head is bruised when the woman (2 thirds of the congregation ) are hid in the wilderness “”” where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. “”””Psalms 74-14..Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

    These are fed SPIRITUAL MEAT, something that is not in your diet..

  45. “And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and her seed;
    HE shall bruise you on the head,
    and you shall bruise HIM on the heel.”
    Genesis 3:15 NASB

    It’s HE and HIM in most Bibles.
    Even in your King James it’s
    “it” shall bruise thy head… and ” his heel”

    There is no “her” or “she” anywhere.

  46. It is this simple, if you believe two and two are five you will reject the truth that two and two equal four…Likeiwse with the truth of the Gospel…That is why I have never accepted men’s interpretation of Scripture…I rely on the Lord to show me the truth..Do you Matthew know what it means that the Holy Ghost is the teacher????
    Where would we be today if the prophets and apostles depended on men ‘s interptations of the truths of the Gospel.

    Before the Lord can reveal anything to anyone they must have their minds thoroughly washed of the lies they acquired….If one refuses to relinquish these lies God cannot show them thruths..

    The key is to always keep your mind opened, not closed with lies and/or personaly opinions…

  47. Matthew look up the word heel in the blue leter Bible online…and you may learn what it means that man must live by the entire word of God..

  48. 1313 Ruth,

    Your words remind me of a conversation I had many years ago with my Roman Catholic mother. She was absolutely sure that MARY was the one who would “crush the head of the serpent” because it was “written in the Bible”- but she didn’t know where.

    I had her open her Catholic Bible to Genesis 3:15 and read it. She couldn’t deny that it says the one who would crush the head of the serpent is a “he” not a “she”. (So it isn’t either Mary or The Church- there is never any reference to the church as a “he”. ) It is a singular word, one man, The Seed of the woman, not “seeds”, not “them”, not “her.”

    So she responded: “Maybe the Bible is wrong.” And then she changed the subject, dropped the conversation, and in her mind, the issue was closed.

    Her opinion about some man’s opinion she had heard regarding how to interpret some symbolic passage in the Book of Revelation was “the truth” in her mind, so the literal voice of God the Father in Genesis 3:15, the very words of God, must be wrong and should be ignored. In her own mind.

  49. Ephesians 6-15..And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;…….
    This is part of the Armour of God………This Armour protects the heels..

    Job 18-9…The gin shall take him by the HEEL, and the robber shall prevail against him…………This verse is about unclothing the heel of Christians…The robbers are those who steal the word of God…The gin is the snare they use.. Consequently the heel becomes unprotected and is bruised..

    Jeremiah 13-22..And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare………god has allowed the heels being made bare because of their iniquity…

    This verse speaks of the robbers that steal God’s words out of men’s minds and hearts….Jeremiah 23-30.Therefore, behold, I am against the (false)prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. .

    Jacob grabbed Esau by the heel before birth and in the process of time Esau sold his birthright for a morsel of bread…Would this be like a parable about the Christians who are awaiting the birth of Christ within themselves who sell their birthright for false doctrines..???

  50. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    Romans 16-20..And the God of peace shall BRUISE SATAN under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen……..aha, so Satan is gong to get his head bruised, but not on the cross but I grant you Jesus was indeed BRUISED for our iniquities, therefore Satan cannot bruise our heels unless we turn from the real truths..
    Now let us locate Satan under our feet……Rev 12-1…And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: …….This woman is the church…She is clothed with the light of God…She has the moon, aka Satan the moon god under her feet waiting to be bruised….Which bruising takes place in Rev 12- 14…The bruising of the head is the act of exposing all of Satan’s lies …Scripture shows us that God bruises Satan’s head and feeds him to his people inhabiting the wilderness..Psalms 74-14………. This food is meat, not milk…

    When Satan attacks God’s people with lying doctrines God reveals the real truths thereby bruising his head…

    Isaiah 27-1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword “”””shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,””””” even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea…..The sword is the WORD of God whereby God punishes the serpent of Genesis 3-15 finally…Did you also know that…out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent…Isaiah 14-29..

    Hab 3-13..Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah….Wounding the head means exosing the lies..

    I also think these seeds apply to the seeds being the word of God that both Jesus and Satan sow….These seeds produce men in God’s image-born again and those in Satan’s image-twice dead…The seed of the woman are Christians and the seed of the serpent those who believed the gospel of antichrist…

    These two gospels, the Gospel of Christ and the gospel of antichrist bruise the head and/or heel of one another…Likewise the children of Jesus and the children of Satan…

    There are many more scriptures about these things

  51. Matthew, get real…..
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and THOU shalt bruise his heel.

    Isaiah 27-1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword “”””shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent,””””” even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea…..The sword is the WORD of God whereby God punishes the serpent of Genesis 3-15 finally…Did you also know that…out of the serpent’s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent…Isaiah 14-29..

    The prophecy of Genesis 3-15 is not fulfilled until the
    leviathan, aka the dragon in the sea makes his appearance…that is when God punishes the serpent.. The dragon is satan that old serpent…

    The SWORD is the word of God whereby God uses it to punish and destroy satan and his lies…. Likewise the serpent uses his lying doctrines to bruise the heel…2 Corinthians 11-3,4,14 shoiws that Islam is the gospel of satan aka the antichrist..

    As for the stars that fall from heaven of Rev 12-4 read Daniel 8-10..

    And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

  52. Willful ignorance among Evangelical seminary graduates

    Dallas Seminary is a graduate school. All graduates (such as myself) have done an expository study of every verse in the entire 66 Books of the Bible. All have been granted at least a Masters Degree from the school, and many have PhDs.

    Here is a “willfully ignorant” statement, quoted from a recent prominent article written by a Dallas grad, and sent by the school to all alumni.
    “As the Apostle Paul exhorts us in 1 Corinthians 9:22 (NIV) to, “… become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”

    In Truth,
    This is not Paul exhorting us to do anything. These are the words of Paul the evangelist, in a personal letter he wrote, in a carnal moment of pride and ignorance, giving boastful false testimony about HIMSELF. Paul wrote, “I have become all things to all people…”

    Paul doesn’t exhort us, the Corinthians, or anyone else to “become all things to all people”. And it certainly isn’t the Commandment of God or the word of God or the voice of God telling us to “become all things to all people.”

    But we’ve been brainwashed by false teaching into thinking that the voice of Paul is the voice of God, and Paul writing about himself is really a commandment of God for us to “be like Paul.” We’ve been falsely trained to do this all the time with Paul’s writings.

    Another classic example of the idolatry of “Paul worship” is how we are trained to interpret Paul writing this:
    “I became your father…Therefore I urge you to imitate me.” [1 Corinthians 4:15-16]

    So do we correctly understand that, at best, these words of Paul are ignorant, prideful, and boastful – and at worst, heresy or blasphemy?
    No of course not… We treat Paul’s boastful false testimony from his personal letter as if it’s the commandment of God to “be like Paul.”

    In ignorance and confusion, we think…”It’s OK because Paul FELT like their father….never mind what Jesus said against the Pharisees in the entire chapter of Matthew 23….. Paul wasn’t really a Pharisee anymore anyway… even though he claimed was, [Acts 23:6] he really didn’t mean it… so my personal interpretation of Paul’s feelings and experience overrides the commandments of Jesus in Matthew 23… and I will follow Paul because Paul said so, and Paul doesn’t need another witness because God is his witness….”

    Did Jesus or any New Testament writer besides Paul ever say; “imitate Paul, follow Paul, or follow Paul as Paul follows Christ?”
    Did any New Testament writer besides Paul ever hold himself up as a SINGULAR example and say; “imitate me, follow me, or follow me as I follow Christ”?

    So other than Paul, who is the one individual in the New Testament who commanded us “Follow me” ?
    Answer: Jesus

    No man can have two masters. You can’t have it both ways.
    I’m not following Paul.

    I’m following the Lord God Jesus.

    • Hi Matthew and All,

      I only have a few moments to respond to what you have written. As I said previously I was going to be out of town for about a week. Things happened during that time that were life changing and it is taking a little bit of time for things to settle.

      But I do want to say, I basically agree pretty much with what you are saying. As Paul’s writings have been translated from a Greek (Gentile) understanding, the truth of what is being said is hard to glean from his writings. Whether he was in error and intentionally speaking wrongly, or his writings were slanted and “not” interpreted correctly from a Hebrew understanding is somewhat in question here. But with that being said, to take Paul at face value as being the only one we rely on for truth is a huge mistake. That kind of thinking is contrary to scripture and the current understanding of what Paul “seems” to be saying doesn’t pass the smell test. He stands alone in what his writings seem to say. Everyone who blindly puts their trust in translations without doing due diligence is in a precarious place on this. I am not talking about salvation here. That is not what this discussion is about.

      I understand the uphill slog you are enduring in all of this. Our way of thinking on this puts us in a place that is not easy to be in, but it is needful. I will get back with you shortly concerning the discussions we were having before I left town.

      Blessings in Messiah Yahshua

  53. Al , you are like the pharisees / jews who tried to discredit Pau and killed him..These also were instrumental in having Jesus and Stepen , etc. killed…
    These pharisees/jews went by the old covenant laws and ordinances that you are teaching today… Jesus and the apostles were killed because of the exact same laws and ordinances you preach… Someting is just not right here..

  54. Al….

    The jews/pharisees condemned Jesus for breaking what they considered the sabbath, said he blasphemed because he said he was son of god and even had him killed for this blasphemy..Most of the apostlels were killed because of the old covenant laws and ordinances…..
    Do you even know that while Moses was off getting the 10 commandments the Israelites were playng footsie with sin the moon god, aka golden calf… it p.o. God so much he allowed moses to write the 613 ordinances that actually are a curse….THIS IS ALL IN THE SCRIPTURES… You are tryng to lead people into this curse.. This curse leads to death…

    You should become a muslim if you are not already one… They believe as you do…old covenant laws and ordinances and a wimply lille Jesus named
    Issa who did not resurrect….

    • Ruth,

      I am not going to converse with you on this level. I am sorry, but you are blind to the truth of scripture. You have drank the Kool-Aid that was dispensed to the all Gentile Christian Church by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine in the 3rd century, the pagan King James later, and so on. Only by the grace and mercy of the Father will you understand what is being said here.

      My prayer is that my Christian brothers and sisters will see at some point that Messiah is truly the WORD. As instructive and important as the letters are in the Renewed Covenant, Messiah Yahshua IS the Torah. To say the Torah has passed away, that Yah’s Word is finite and not enduring, is to say the same of Messiah. We (believers in Yahshua) will all be judged by our words and actions at the Judgment Seat of Messiah one day. It should behoove all of us to choose our words carefully. That includes you, Matthew, myself, and everyone else. Many will suffer loss on that day, though not utterly cast off. The sad part is, they will have no idea what is coming at them. At that point, it will be too late.

      • amen…to Yahshua being the Word….

        I think we should all embrace each other as believers with different perceptions….I hate to see people get so personal..

        fyi…both you and ruth have valuable contributions….you just believe differently

    • ruth

      I do not think Al is leading people into a curse….and he is not muslim ….he just have different beliefs than you do.

    • Al, every word I have written is in the Bible.. The only koolaid I drink is living waters… Do you enen know that the jews of Jesus days were infiltratd by Esau and Ishmale’s descendants,, forced to convert to Judaism during wars in Idemea…That is history…. Do you also know Israelites is a blood line and jew is a member of a religion…..The word jew was a slang word and the real isralites considered it an insult..These words are not from the Bible but from history accounts.

  55. Marianne, have you reead about Moses and the curse..

    Daniel spoke of it…Daniel 9-11..Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
    I am sure this is prophecy for today… Christians are considered Israel too…Some Christains are direct blood lines and some are adopted into the Abrhamic family….
    There are many more verses pertaining to this curse also..
    As I see it teaching the 613 ordinances is leading man into the curse…Jesus nailed these ordinances to the cross… I tis written..

  56. Marianne, In Daniel 9-11 the word CURSE is spelled ALAH in Hebrew. ALAH is ALLAH…..looks like the enitre world is suffering from that curse now..

    I think God had a purpose when He used the words BEING INTERPRETED so many times..Such as the word curse in specific verses being interpreted means ALAH..

  57. I thought all Christains were saved until I read about the sowers in Scriptures and until my beloved sister became a Jehovh’s wittness….That day I learned about the tares satan had placed in Christiianity….
    Satan as he did in the garden of Eden sowed his versions of God’s words…The jw’S changed the Scripture to prove there are two Gods, the big God Jehovah and the little God jesus… In my book that is TWO GODS and is a no no…
    Thre are many such cults in Christianity…Fortunate for me I do not beleive men…I believe the Bible…. not do I get understand from man….I get it from the Lord..

    One of these days people might understand that Adam became like satan in understanding good and evil…Genesis 3-22..And he passed this mindset to all of mankind…. That mindset could not understand God’s words..And that is why we mlust live by faith,because we are incapable of understanding anything about the Bible unles God reveal it…

  58. My intent was never to hurt anyone….

  59. Hi Al, welcome back from the Hanukkah break… hope you were blessed.

    RE: Your 2 posts above,
    I’m glad we “basically agree pretty much.”

    I’ve posted dozens of times in the last four months. So if you agreed 100% with everything, that would seem to indicate that you had not read much, or did not have time to “think for yourself” as Sid Roth might say…

    As Jesus himself reminds us from the Torah, “every matter should be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

    I don’t know everything, I can’t be “all things to all men,” and God never commands me to. That is the unique role of our risen Messiah Jesus 🙂

  60. Hi Matthew,

    I agree “totally” with your post above. Not one of us has all the truth. There is always something for all of us to learn. We are all on the path. Where I think we are single minded in our beliefs, is the fact that the split that has occurred between those who are believers in Messiah believe one of two ways;

    Grace only-Faith without works

    Grace (blood of Messiah) and Torah (commandments)-Messiah our salvation & Messiah the Word (Torah)

    I also believe we agree fully on the fact that this situation has happened due to Paul’s writings.

    Having said that, the area where we might differ on this is the reason why Paul’s writings have caused this division between His People.

    1) Paul is misunderstood by the Christian Church

    2) Paul has been misinterpreted by the Gentile translators, whether knowingly or unwittingly.
    3) That the grace+law crowd doesn’t understand what they are reading in Paul’s writings.
    4) That Paul’s teachings were basically, or at least in part, wrong and contrary to the rest of scripture.

    As we have talked about earlier, Yah has not only allowed division and splits among His people, He almost seems to be orchestrating it in certain instances. We have discussed this before. When I said above that we need to make sure we are giving due diligence to understand The Word, beyond a specific translation we happen to read or like, it was not a casual filler statement. Salvation is an act of contrition and surrender to Messiah and His shed blood, and all that involves. He made it to where even a child could come to Him, so that none be lost, if that be possible.

    But, from salvation moving forward, it is not that simple. It is about wisdom and understanding, revelation through Ruach HaKodesh, and a willingness to conform to His Word, even if it means you stand alone against 1700 years of the truth being buried in words that lead most astray, where we have all been and many still are. Not from salvation so much, but from the fullness of understanding all that He has purposed for us. Literally, His people are perishing (to a degree) because of a lack of knowledge. This is a problem of lack of knowledge, which causes a lack of wisdom and understanding, which causes revelation to not come, which causes confusion and straying off the path He has prepared for us to walk, which brings the CURSE-disobedience to His Word (Ruth). Calling His Word (Torah) a curse is dangerous ground (Ruth).

    I believe that Yah knew all of this was coming and has allowed it until the time of the end. Not all who have salvation are necessarily the Bride, just as not all who have salvation through Messiah are necessarily disciples or apostles. Salvation is of Messiah, rewards are of works=obedience to His Word and all that entails.

    If I have somehow misunderstood where we agree or don’t agree, let me know. This is just my understanding of where things are.

    Blessings in Messiah

    • Hi Al,

      As I’ve read through this substantial post several times, it’s really a struggle for me to point to anything you wrote and say that I don’t agree.

      The one thing that causes the most questions in my mind is your statement “Not all who have salvation are necessarily the Bride.” I’m not disagreeing, but I’ll have to give that some more thought. Anyway, this is a minor peripheral point, not the maid thrust of what you’re saying, and you’re not making a definitive dogmatic statement anyway, so it would probably be best to leave that aside for now and focus on the main discussion.

      You list 4 possible reasons “why Paul’s writings have caused this division.”
      I think it’s a combination of all 4. You might see more weight on reason #1, I think I see more weight on reason #4.

      Clearly, in some specific cases, Paul’s teachings DO clearly contradict Jesus, starting with Paul’s “One rule” vs. Jesus’ “the first and greatest commandment and the second.” But Paul wasn’t wrong about everything.

      While many “critics of Paul” have tended to focus on Paul’s teachings, I personally have spent a lot more time thinking about his BEHAVIOR, recorded in his letters and also in the second half of Acts, beginning with his famous fight and split with his mentor Barnabas [Acts 15:36 until the end of the book.]

      I see the second half of Acts as Luke’s expose biography, showing the world who Paul really was- some good, yes, but a lot of bad too, like Solomon, Jonah, and Samson. I don’t see it as “Paul’s second missionary journey” but rather the beginning of Paul’s personal travels, much (but not all) of which was in carnal disobedience to God.

      I have heard many dozens of messages, maybe hundreds, over the past 20 years from the Book of Acts, and when it comes to Paul, it’s always the same blind idolatry of Paul.

      It is never questioned- “if Paul did something it must have been right, and if Paul said something it must be true” – without examination, comparison, analysis, or question. The teachers all think Paul’s words and actions stand alone, so we must figure out “why was Paul right” because there MUST be a valid reason – rather than ask “WAS Paul right.”

      Luke wrote Acts- not Paul.
      So why should we assume that everything recorded about Paul in Acts is a “model of maturity and an example or us to follow?” It’s a dangerous assumption. And if people just agree theologically that “Paul wasn’t perfect” but they can never name a single mistake, then they really are following Paul rather than following Jesus.

      Your insights are a blessing to me.
      following Jesus,

      • Hi Matthew,

        Without changing the direction of our conversation, I will answer your question about the Bride of Messiah, understanding that only Messiah knows those who are His Bride.

        Yah set up the order of His Kingdom in the beginning. It is spoken about at the end of scripture, but the foundation was set in the Torah. We find in the Torah the first Passover in the land of Egypt-Israel’s cleansing blood sacrifice for their sins-the spotless year old Lamb without blemish. The ones who participated left Egypt-the worlds system for the wilderness-Yah’s way (I used the phrase “the ones who participated” due to the fact that only about 20% of the Hebrews left Egypt. The other 80% chose to stay behind in Egypt rather than face the rigors of the wilderness). In doing this, He was preparing His people for Sinai where they would be betrothed to Messiah (the Bridegroom). At Sinai, Messiah gave Israel (His people-the mixed multitude-both ethnic Israel “AND” Gentiles) the wedding contract (the Ketubah in Hebrew) which are basically the wedding vows=Torah. In the wedding vows Yah told Israel what was expected of them to fulfill the vows and He told them what He would do for them if they would obey and honor what He said=His Word=Torah. That is why, after Messiah had finished speaking, the assembly (the Betrothed) replied “All You have said, we will do”, which is basically to say “I do”!

        At this point the marriage has not been consummated. We are currently betrothed to Messiah with the Marriage taking place at the beginning of the 7th day of the week=the 7th day of creation. It will be those who keep the wedding vows that were put forth at Sinai, under the grace (unmerited favor-the blotting out of our sins) that was received at Passover, through the shed blood of the spotless lamb of Yah-a picture of the coming Messiah Yahshua. This has been the pattern from the beginning and is how it will be in the end. The Word of Yah is not evolutionary, changing with time and circumstances. People will change and the world will change, but He changes not. Yah is “creationary” not “evolutionary”. He gave us His best from the beginning. His Word is not subject to degradation.

        On the 4th day of creation Messiah Yahshua came to us in the flesh, offered His blood for our sins, for the purpose of writing His Torah (the wedding vows-marriage contract-Ketubah) on our hearts instead of tablets of stone, that we might walk before Him in His purity while walking according to the Marriage vows, in His unmerited favor and grace, in the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. One thing that must be stated here is that walking in the Spirit of the law does not mean Torah has been destroyed. What it does mean is that “when” we fail to keep the law perfectly (which we all fail at) the shed blood of Messiah covers our sin and presents us as guiltless before the Father. Those who have thrown off His Marriage vows-Ketubah-Torah do not have this covering. Sounds completely opposite of what we have been taught all of our lives, and seemingly goes against the whole concept of Grace, but not really.

        How did Messiah, the disciples, the Apostles, the believers (Jew and Gentile) walk in this world for the first two centuries of this present age? They all walked as Messiah walked-according to Torah, understanding that their justification was through Yahshua, His shed blood and not the commandments. For the first two centuries of this age, the followers of Messiah were walking out the marriage vows given to them at Sinai, declared openly by how Messiah walked, obeying Torah perfectly, our salvation and justification; He being the one that we were and are to emulate.

        Consider what Messiah said in Matthew 5:17-20;

        17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

        Notice in verse 19 Messiah says whoever breaks the” least of” these “commandments” and “teaches” others to do so will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. What is being said here? We all know that we will all break the commandments in one way or the other. As long as sin is in the world, we will fail on a certain level. That is a given. That is why we need a sin sacrifice to cover us in our failures-the righteous blood of Messiah. The problem here is not about failing to keep the commandments perfectly, but rather breaking the “least” of the commandments and “TEACHING” others to do so. While this should be pretty obvious, most glaze past it and believe differently.

        If we endeavor to walk as Messiah walked (keeping the commandments) in a spirit of Love and teach or tell others it is what we are to be doing, according to scripture we will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

        If we willfully (goes to intent shown by breaking and teaching others it is okay to break the “least”-smallest laws) break the “least” of the commandments and teach others to do so, we will be called the “least”-smallest in the Kingdom of Heaven.
        We can break the” least” (smallest) of the commandments, and still be in the Kingdom of Heaven, but we will be there as the” least” if our intention is to not observe the “least” (smallest) of His laws. We are all redeemed by the blood of Messiah, but our position in the Kingdom is diminished to being the “least”. Not because we were incapable of keeping the law, but rather because we rejected the “least”-smallest of His laws. It is the attitude and intent with which we approach His law, which determines what we will “do” with His law. You actually are “under” the law when you reject it. If you embrace the law, through the shed blood of Messiah, you are justified and no longer under the penalty of the law, even though we all break it in some way or another.

        So, tell me, would this person who has denied, rejected, broken, and taught others to break the “least”-smallest of the marriage vows, without a change of heart or direction, be considered the Bride, even though he is still in the Kingdom? The answer is obvious to any who will be honest with themselves.

        With all of that being said, I do believe it goes to the intent of the heart. We had talked earlier about keeping the Sabbath any day of the week, just as long as it was kept. I believe that where there is no knowledge there is no sin. I don’t believe we are held guilty of breaking Yah’s laws that we have no knowledge of. I am not talking about indifference here, but rather opportunity. For example, if a person in some of the most rural areas of China or any other country for that matter, who might have seen a handout of the Gospel of John and received Messiah, or whatever the situation, but knew nothing about the Sabbath per se and which day of the week and so on, I tend to believe they would be judged on the intent of their heart, with the righteous judge knowing what they would have done, if they had known , thus being fully justified through Messiah as if they had kept the Torah perfectly, if their heart was perfect towards Him to obey Him. Ultimately, it will be Messiah who judges us on this and we know His judgment is righteous. It is willfully breaking and trying to tear down His Torah that will bring judgment on a person or group of people who share this intent, regardless of what else they do or say.

        As far as who is in the Kingdom is up to Messiah. There is evidently a place we can be in, where we are called the “least” in the Kingdom of Heaven if we have broken the” least” of the commandments and taught or told others it is okay to do so.

        In Matthew7:21-23 we are looking in on the Judgment Seat of Messiah, where His people are gathered before Him:

        21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

        We see the scenario where religious people have been doing religious things that they weren’t commanded to do and they are told to get away from Him (the Messiah) because they are workers of “lawlessness”=without law- Torah due to the fact they weren’t doing what they were commanded to do. We know this is the Judgment Seat of Messiah, because it is Messiah who is judging His people ON THAT DAY! The implication here is that His laws have been completely or at least in part abandoned creating a situation of lawlessness. These will never enter the Kingdom. Who these people are, only Yah knows for sure, but what we do know is that Messiah will judge based on the intent of the heart to follow His Word or to follow someone else’s word, regardless of where they are at in their theology or their situation.

        Anyone who says they endeavor to walk as He walked and walks the exact opposite of how He walked, is only fooling themselves with consequences to pay. I think it is telling that He said “I never knew you”. Sounds an awful lot like our term today “I thought I knew you, but evidently not.”

        Walking in Love is the pretext in all of this. It is about keeping His commandments in Love. Messiah himself said, ”If you love me keep my commandments”. IT IS NOT OPTIONAL!

        One last thing-who was it that gave the Torah-Marriage vows at Sinai?

        James 4:12 There is but one Giver of Torah; he is also the Judge, with the power to deliver and to destroy. Who do you think you are, judging your fellow human being?

        James is talking to believer’s here.

        Who will Judge the believer’s? Messiah Yahshua
        Who was the Giver of Torah? Messiah Yahshua
        What will be the standard by which believer’s in the atoning blood of Messiah be judged by??? Torah
        Who will be the Bride of Messiah? Those who keep and honor their wedding vows-Ketubah-Torah
        Can we cast off our marriage vows and willfully break them and still expect to be the Bride???

        As I have said before, only Messiah knows who His Bride is. It makes no difference if we are Jew or Gentile-there is only ONE law for the Hebrew and the Gentile.

        • you think “‘least” refers to all 613 mitzvahs?

          • Let me answer you this way. When David and his men were on the run from King Saul, they were hungry and went into the Tabernacle and ate the Shewbread which was breaking Yah’s law. Also, David and his men were walking through a field of corn on the Sabbath, picked the corn and ate it-unlawful. Nothing more is ever mentioned about this and David is not held guilty of breaking the law. We read the Psalms and understand his deep respect and honor for Yah’s commandments. He observed the law, but if he broke the law, he did not come under the judgment of the law.

            When David had Uriah the Hittite killed so he could cover up his affair with Bathsheba, punishment came into his life, but not unto death as would have been required by the law. In fact, Messiah was given the title Son of David. Yah’s law is given to protect us and keep us safe in this life. If we honor Yah by walking according to His law to the best of our ability, we are then free from being judged by the letter of the law.

            Living in a Gentile nation, away from Israel, do what you can do to honor His Word, to follow it. Loving Messiah and keeping and observing those things He has given us to follow, not in a fearful expectation of punishment, but rather an expression of love for Yahshua and His Word. No one who does this will be held accountable for the letter of the law. That will belong to those who hate his law and reject it. It is all in the intent of the heart. The wise will embrace what the foolish scorn and turn their backs on.

            • Hi Al,
              These 2 posts are like a huge delicious steak dinner. My wife and I really appreciate them. It will take time to digest. The one point where we said WHAT ??? was you saying “only about 20% of the Hebrews left Egypt.” We never heard anything like that before.

          • Just for clarification:

            Matthew 23:23

            Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.

            The “greater” of the laws deal with basically how we approach Yah and our fellow man-love, mercy, faith, and justice. The lesser (least) of the laws deal with the rest of the commandments. Both are meant to be kept as is noted in the verse above.

            One last thing; lest anyone think that I was saying above that we could keep what commandments we wanted and discard those we don’t like, you are wrong. What Yah gave us, we are to walk in as it is written. Those commandments that don’t pertain to us, we don’t have to keep. Those that do pertain, we should feel compelled to honor and keep them to the degree we are able, as they are written.

  61. Al, so you are in agreement with the pharisees who had Jesus killed for blasphemly for saying He is Son of God., and they condemned Jesus for healing on the Sabbath, etc… and for the pharisees who stoned Stephen, killed Paul and most of the apostles..

    John 8 shows these monsters who used the law for an excuse to kill were children of satan..These professed to be sons of Abraham, but were seed only… These also professed to worship the God of Abraham.. Jesus said they were of satan…

    You most surely agree with these monsers by you own words…

    You by your denial of Paul and Paul’s words are in reality labeling Jesus a liar and a fraud…God surely must be stupid to pick such a man as Paul…right???

    I think you do not know who God is…
    Your words of condmenation of Paul , a man who died for Jesus and for humanity makes me want to throw up…

  62. (Ruth). Calling His Word (Torah) a curse is dangerous ground (Ruth).

    Al, First of all, i is you who is on dangerous ground and second the Bible calls it a curse in both the old and new testaments…Would you like for me to post all the Bible verses????? You still would not believe it …You only believe what fits your own little personal opinions..

    By your words I have decided you are exactly like the pharisees who used their laws to murder innocents..

    Is this why you hate Paul and lie about him…
    Gal 3-10..For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    Gal 3-13..Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    • Ruth,

      With all due respect, you do not understand what you are reading, and you do not even understand the discussion that we are currently involved in. You are regurgitating answers that have been handed down to you by anti-semites from centuries before you.

      What was put before Israel was a blessing if they kept the commandments (mitzvoth) and a curse if they did “NOT” keep the commandments (mitzvoth-HIs Word). I knew better than to get involved in this with you.

      I hope for you only Yah’s best. I honestly regret all of this.

      Deuteronomy 11:22-28
      22 “For if you will take care to obey all these mitzvot I am giving you, to do them, to love ADONAI your God, to follow all his ways and to cling to him, 23 then ADONAI will expel all these nations ahead of you; and you will dispossess nations bigger and stronger than you are. 24 Wherever the sole of your foot steps will be yours; your territory will extend from the desert to the L’vanon and from the River, the Euphrates River, to the Western Sea. 25 No one will be able to withstand you; ADONAI your God will place the fear and dread of you on all the land you step on, as he told you.
      26 “See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse — 27 the blessing, if you listen to the mitzvoth (commandments) of ADONAI your God that I am giving you today; 28 and the curse, if you don’t listen to the mitzvoth (commandments) of ADONAI your God, but turn aside from the way I am ordering you today and follow other gods that you have not known.

  63. Al, you would do well to uncover the mysteries in the old testament instead of arguing about laws and Paul…Genesis 1-26 is a mlystery that begins in Genesis and is not finished till the end… Genesis 3-15 is a mystery likewise…..Cain’s way is mystery….The tower of Babel another mlystery began in genesis reaches her end in Revelation…Tell me exactly what original sin was..The answers are all in the old testament…

    I perceive you need the holy ghost teacher to teach you…But then again you would not listen..
    The only revelation I had about the law was some Christians will go bckward , meaning backward into old covenant… which is exactly where you are.. This leads to perdition…

  64. Al, this verse is about you….The pharisees were speaking to the officers and said…
    John 7..47 Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived?
    48 Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?
    49 But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed….
    These pharisees like All are seeking out any pharisees, such as Paul who might believe Jesus……These pharisees like Al believe those who do not know the law are cursed…..These are the same men who had Jesus killed, Stephen, and most apostles and also the early Christians
    ….I guess these pharisees thought their laws woud save them…The law does not save anyone and in fact causes the curse if you break the laws..
    The law most definately leads to bondage and blindness…
    Gal 4-24..Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    AGAR means HAGAR.. and muslims doctrines is same as the old covenant laws and ordinances…And I am positive that the descendants ofHagar had much to do with the fall of Israel and the golden calf aka the moon god named sin..

  65. Who is God Al???? Tell me his name….If you tell me adonai or Jehovah I will have to show you those that left their name as a curse to the chosen ones..And that the name ADONI is clue to the numjber of the beast 666..
    Are yu ready????

    • ?????

      God’s name if Jehovah or Yahweh…..he is also called adonai,, which means lord

      you have a problem with that?

      • No Marianne I do not have a problem… My next post I ask who these are and what name do they leave…God said he will call his servants by ANOTHER NAME..This indicates the cursed name was the name his servants used before Christians ..iIt might even be prophecy about allah being a curse to chosen Christians..
        It could also relate to the curse of the law and the pharisees…

  66. Isaiah 65-15..And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
    What name were his servants called befre hey were called Christians????
    V. 16…That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. JESUS IS THE GOD OF TRUTH…

    • the name before the name christians were Jews….so the point?

      • The point being that perhaps God was telling us that the name of God the Jews worshipped would be a curse to his chosen people today…Muslims says allah is jehovah the god of Abraham …Tht is most definately a snare and a curse..

  67. Rev 13 says the number 666 is the number of a man…Men were numbered by the number of offspring in o.t…
    Ezra 2-13..The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.
    ADONIKAM is a man numbered 666…His name means my lord (adoni, Jehovah , baal) has arisen…This could mean several things… For one it could mean that the baal god has risen up and claimed he is Jehovah or Adoni.. It could also mean God has risen up in anger …The baal god being his anger against wayward Christians….

    I most definately think the beast’s mark in the forehead is the name of allah and also the name on the forehead of Babylon his congregation..
    The mark in the right hand is a lie in the right hand… aka the koran..
    Isaiah 44-20, Psalms 1448 and 11..

  68. Numbers 1-2..Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; Doesn’t this verse say the number of their names being the number of individuals in a family…
    Ezra had 666 offsprings thereby making his number 666…The name adonikam means my lord (baal, jehovah, adoni) has arisen..
    I also forgot to mention that Luicer also beome a man…which means since he declares himself GOD he would come as a man like Jesus, , a messiah ..hello mhammed..

    Ezra 2-13..The children of Adonikam, six hundred sixty and six.The name adonikam could also be referring to muslims who think their lord is jeohvah, or adoni, meaning the God of Abraham.. aka allah

    Adonikam’s number is 667 in another verse..Perhaps this signifies their lord mohammed when he returns..

  69. Antichrist is a spirit….He is a complete counterfeit of God’s works with man…He claims he is God..He comes in flesh as a messiah like Christ but he is ANTI CHRIST….He has followers that believe and teach the lie that Jesus is not Son of God and God is not a father..

    Some Christians of john’s day followed Jesus but went out from them ..
    1 John 2-18, 19.. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. v.19..They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
    John saying it is the LAST TIME is a good indication that Christians will desert Jesus and join antichrist Islam which event is recorded in Rev. 12.

    2 John 1-7..For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist…These are the body of antichrist ,satan’s counterfeit of the body of Christ..

  70. Marianne There was never a question about the Desendants of Ishmael or Adonikam….And I did not assign the number 666 to Adonikam, the jews did and apparently God did…
    God hid his mysteries in the Bible….Maybe you should ask Him about it…

    This did not reflect on Adonikam …It was just God’s culte little way of hiding things to be revealed in the right time..


  71. More examples of persistent ignorance from Christian leaders on TV

    .1) Quote: “The Apostle Paul wrote in the Letter to the Hebrews…”
    Actually, no.
    The author of the letter to the Hebrews chose to remain anonymous. No one today can truly know for sure who the author was, there is no proof. Also, I am quite sure there is NO evidence that Paul wrote the letter- but there is some evidence that Paul did NOT write it. (So if someone insists on believing that Paul wrote Hebrews, please quote chapter and verse here and make your case for the world to see. If I’m wrong, I want to know.)

    1.5 bonus) (Also, on the same point, I heard a sermon a few years back at a large church that was famous for having a lot of former “Jesus People” in it. The Pastor had already been preaching verse by verse through Hebrews for months when I visited once. In the sermon, he mentioned Paul’s name dozens of times- approximately 50 times I think – insisting that Paul wrote the Letter to the Hebrews. But he never even tried to offer evidence of Paul’s authorship, he simply assumed it.)

    And as noted exhaustively elsewhere, Paul was never qualified, appointed, or recognized individually as an “Apostle” by anyone in the New Testament except himself, and his testimony is not valid without another witness.

    .2) Quote: “There was only one Apostle to the Gentiles, and that was Paul…”
    The Apostle Peter was sent to the Gentiles [Acts chapters 10, 11, & 15].
    There are only 12 Apostles, and the 12th is Matthias.
    There is no “Apostle to the Gentiles.” This is a title that Paul the evangelist gave to HIMSELF. Paul was an evangelist, teacher, and writer, sent primarily to the Gentiles.

    Here is another article if people want to think for themselves…

    • who said this on TV?

      Paul was assigned to he gentiles, not the hebrews., so there would be no reason to think he wrote to them.

      • Marianne, read Acts 9-13 through 15, kjv. and Acts 22-12 through 15….
        I fear the serpents are having their influence in this site…
        To date, I have not read one word of truth or value from Matthew, or Al or Bethany..

      • Sunday night on TBN there was a “Tribute to Paul Crouch” due to his recent passing into the presence of Jesus. I have nothing bad to say about him- he was sort of “before my time” in a different generation, and I was mostly unaware of his ministry.

        The two quotes here were from two men who had short video clips as part of this “tribute”. I don’t know them, not even their names.

  72. Matthew your divide and conquer scheme will not succeed… Paul was an apostle…
    Colossians 1-1. Paul, an APOSTLE of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
    Galatians 1-1…Paul, an APOSTLE, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
    Romans 1-1..Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an APOSTLE, separated unto the gospel of God,
    Is the Bible a lie and Paul was really not an apostle…

    ACTS 9…13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the GENTILES, AND KINGS, AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL….
    Did Jesus and Ananias lie, Matthew?????

    Acts 22.12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.15 For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL men of what thou hast seen and heard… ALL MEN,,, wow the Bible lied again..right???

    Matthew did you know that the serpent in the Garden quoted the Bible…He said God doth know that in the day you eat you will be as gods…
    John 10-34….Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    Psalms 82-6…I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
    The serpent quoted words of God though they were not even penned then….
    The serpent also called God a liar when he denied Eve would die as God had said…This is what you are dong Matthew…You like the pharisees are calling God’s words lies and you like the pharisees are exalting the old covenant laws and ordinances over faith….No wonder they were called serpents…

  73. According to the Bible Jesus wrote through men and that very much includes Hebrews, etc..Jesus wrote Hebews, he used mens hands to write the script.. Jesus is the WORD OF GOD…He even wrote through moses… but some things Moses wrote was because of the Isaelites rebellion …..

  74. http://www.letusreason.org/latrain23.htm
    For PROPHECY came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” (2 Pt. 1:21). The prophets spoke (and wrote) as they were moved (carried along) by the Holy Spirit, so that what they spoke (and wrote) was exactly what God intended. Peter points to the word 2 Pet. 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy. ”God’s message, became God’s Word and had a purpose for the future. “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying …” (Mt. 1:22). God spoke it, by using the prophet’s mouth–God’s message and God’s Word, but it was delivered by way of a human mouth. Prophecy is inspired speech! It is nothing less than the Word of God in spoken or written form.

    Jesus is the Holy Ghost that wrote through men of God..
    Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD…

  75. The Bible accurately records people saying things that are NOT
    “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.”

    Eve in the Garden of Eden – Genesis 3:3

    Paul talking about himself:
    Colossians 1-1. Paul, an APOSTLE…
    Galatians 1-1…Paul, an APOSTLE…
    Romans 1-1..Paul… called to be an APOSTLE…

    Acts 22.12-15 is Luke’s accurate record of Paul making exaggerated false statements about himself, making things up, and falsely putting words in the mouth of Ananias that Ananias never actually said. It is Luke telling the truth that Paul really told a lie.

    In Acts 9 Luke accurately tells the true story of what really happened.
    Paul was a “chosen vessel” just as all true born-again followers of Jesus are “chosen vessels.” That doesn’t mean “Apostle.” Jesus never said Paul was appointed an apostle, and neither did anyone else anywhere in the Bible EXCEPT PAUL talking about himself.

    God’s definition of “Apostles” is “12 witnesses”, the 11 plus Matthias, who was qualified and appointed. Paul redefined “apostle” to mean “sent one” in order to try to usurp the throne of Matthias, and include himself in the elite top level.

    Sadly, Paul’s deception worked in the minds of most followers of Jesus, until now. Now is the time for this demonic stronghold of “Boss Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed apostle” to be exposed and cast down.

    Long Live the Lord God Jesus the Messiah, son of Yahweh !

    • matthew

      You are too obsessed with discrediting Paul.

      It is not your prerogative to define “apostle.” You are making claims that are very subjective.

  76. Eve in the Garden of Eden – Genesis 3:3
    But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    God said..
    Genesis 2-17..But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Matthew now trying to discredit Eve , opps I mean God and his word..

    • Eve, you are not listening.


      • Matthew are you implying that it was the tree of life that God commanded the Adams not to eat???
        If so, it is proof positive you do not know good from evil or god from satan..

        Eve said the tree was plesant to the eyes..Do you know why/??The answer is in the Bible..
        Gen 3-6..And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, ..THIS SHOWS CLEARLY THAT IT WAS A TREE TO MAKE HER WISE…..WISE IN WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS EVIL… HOWLEVER IT WAS SATAN’S VERSION OF WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS EVIL, NOT GOD’S…. ABOUT LIKE YOUR VERSION OF GOOD AND EVIL AND YOUR INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE.

  77. Jeremiah 17-13..O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be WRITTEN IN THE EARTH, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.

    John 8
    3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
    Looks like the pharisees are written in the earth which means they are spiritual dead plus…,,,Twice dead …..second death…Kinda makes me think the law and ordinances were original Sin…aka law versus faith

  78. 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the GENTILES, AND KINGS, AND THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL….
    Did Jesus and Ananias lie, Matthew?????

  79. One reason I think the law and ordinances could have been part of oridinal sin is because Islam teaches the same doctrine of law and ordinances and there are several scripturs comparing Islam to Eve’s dception…
    One is 2 corinthains 11-3,4,14..which is about Islam..
    3 But I fear, lest by any means, AS THE SERPENT BEGUILED EVE through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
    4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    This is satan the prince of the world that comes after Jesus.. John 14-30..
    The same serpent that beguiled Eve.

  80. Marianne,

    I want to be sure I understand what you mean by “discrediting.”

    Above I quoted someone on TV who was discrediting the humble anonymous author of the Letter to the Hebrews, and giving the credit for writing the letter to Paul.

    Another man on TV was discrediting the Apostle Peter, saying “There was only one Apostle to the Gentiles, and that was Paul…” but Acts chapters 10, 11, & 15 tells us otherwise. So Paul doesn’t deserve all the credit.

    Someone on your site was discrediting The Apostle Matthias (and The Apostle Peter and the other 10 original Apostles, who had all walked with Jesus faithfully for 3 ½ years) and saying that appointing Matthias was a mistake, [Acts 1] because really Paul was the rightful 12th Apostle.

    Others discredit the Apostle John, who wrote about the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven in the future, because they say that really, Paul was the “Thirteenth Apostle.”
    Yet John wrote:
    “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the TWELVE APOSTLES of the Lamb.” [Revelation 21:14]

    So I am giving credit where credit is due. In the case of the current opinions of many people regarding who Paul was and what Paul did, I suppose this means it is necessary to take credit away from Paul in some cases where he didn’t deserve it. So if this is what you mean by “discrediting Paul” then yes, I am doing that, and I think we all need to do that.

    I am giving the right people the right credit.
    Credit to the anonymous author of Hebrews for his writing (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit),

    Credit to The Apostle Peter for going to the Gentiles (guided by the Holy Spirit) before Paul,

    Credit to the Apostle Matthias (and the the Original 11 Apostles, who were guided by the Holy Spirit),

    Credit to the Apostle John for his writing (under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit).

    You are right that it is not MY perogative to define “apostle” – and it isn’t Paul’s perogative either! But, Paul did exactly that, in error.

    It is the perogative of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, working through the Original Apostles personally appointed by Jesus, to define “apostle.” Only Matthew John and Peter were authors, and Mark and Luke accurately recorded the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles. All their spoken and written words and actions agree – there are only 12 Apostles, and Matthias is the 12th, according to the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles. This is not subjective, I believe it is a statement of fact about the text of our New Testament, and so far no one in the world has been able to contradict this specific point. You can let me know if it isn’t true.

    It is twisting Scripture to take Luke’s passing editorial comments in Acts 14 out of context, without looking at Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, and say this means that Paul was an “apostle.” It isn’t Luke’s perogative to define “apostle” either – he wasn’t an Apostle himself, and he was a Gentile (and a travelling companion of Paul.)

    Acts 14 has nothing to do with Jesus and the Original Apostles- they don’t appear anywhere in that chapter. It’s the story of two missionaries on a trip, and Luke made passing reference to “the apostles Barnabas and Paul” in his narrative. This is Luke’s speaking – he didn’t record anyone else saying the words “apostles” or anyone being appointed “apostles” or recognized as “apostles” by anyone else. And if you read the surrounding chapters written by Luke, you can see that Luke goes WAY out of his way to make it clear that Paul and Barnabas were NEVER recognized as apostles either before or after their missionary trip together in Acts 13 & 14. Even for Paul’s companion Luke, Barnabas and Paul was only temporary apostles, during their short mission trip together. (And anyway, Luke has no authority to appoint anyone an apostle.)

    I think I’ve already identified and expanded on most of the references to “apostles” that are found in the texts describing the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles. I don’t think I should write them again here. There really aren’t that may.

    In contrast, there is a lot written about “apostles” by Paul. And Paul contradicts everyone else. But “share of voice equals share of mind”, and many Evangelicals spend the majority of their time listening to the voice of Paul. Therefore, they become like Paul, think like Paul, act like Paul, look at Paul’s ministry to the church in Corinth as a “model”, and teach others to believe that Christian maturity means to “be like Paul.”

    I am saying no.
    The goal should be:
    Becoming more like Jesus was.

    • who on my site discredited Matthias? and what did they say?

      I find this picky argument over the word apostle dreary. It is like arguing that there were 12 teachers long ago, and since then, no one is allowed to use the word teacher to describe themselves.

      there is nothing in the bible that says God exclusively set aside the word “apostle” to define only the 12 that followed Jesus. it is JUST a word……you are so hung up on a tree in the woods that you cannot see the forest.

      did i use the word “discrediting?
      if so please give link.

  81. Marianne,

    Here is a post from October 29th where someone was discrediting both The Apostle Matthias and The Apostle Peter.

    Just like today He has given us signs as to His coming in His word! Now you have 70+70=140 leaves 13, to this Jesus added this commit, “I told Peter and the rest of the disciples to go to Jerusalem and wait there until they were endowed with power from on high, Lk.24:49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. These things Peter did not do because he is Peter and Peter is always anxious and in a hurry, Only I can Ordain My Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Preachers and Teachers, as well as the rest of my Grace I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, (Ex.33:19), I had known who I wanted to have as the 12 th Apostles to replace Judas and it is as you suspected it was Saul of Tarsus he was to be the 12 th but Peter had called for a Lot to be taken, that which was done was done of man and not of Myself, for this reason Matthias’ Apostleship was never heard of again in the record of My churches!

    Full text is at

    Muslims could say: “Muhammad said that he is The Prophet. It is written (by Muhammad) so you have to accept it. Muhammad does not need another witness, because God is his witness. ‘Prophet’ is just a word.”

    Many Evangelicals today would say: “Paul said that he is The Apostle to the Gentiles. It is written (by Paul) so you have to accept it. Paul does not need another witness because God is his witness. ‘Apostle’ is just a word.”

    According to the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles in the text of our New Testament, the word “apostle” is not “just a word.” It refers specifically to 12 specific men who were personal WITNESSES of the entire 3 ½ years of Jesus’ ministry. They are all in agreement on this.

    According to THEM, “apostle” is not a generic term for someone who is “sent” – that was Paul’s basic idea for most of his ministry, but Paul was mistaken on that particular point. Paul’s opinions about apostles, and himself as an apostle, stand alone, and contradict Jesus and the Original Apostles. Paul redefined the term “apostle” to include himself in this elite top level, he spent a great deal of effort writing to claim he was an “apostle,” and he frequently used the word. Also, Paul personally created two new words, “apostleship” and “super-apostle” that are never used by anyone else in the New Testament. So it seems that Paul too understood that “apostle” was not “just a word.”

    This is not subjective. You just need to compare Paul’s writings about “apostles” with the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles recorded in our New Testament. Jesus and the Original Apostles were right, and Paul was wrong on this particular point.

    So to rely only on Paul’s writings (or dictionaries or commentaries) to define what an “apostle” is, and ignore the words and actions of Jesus and the ORIGINAL Apostles in the text of the New Testament, is essentially similar to looking to Muhammad’s writings to define what a “prophet” is. (No I’m not saying you are “Muslim”.)

    The “Orthodox” view of the Bible is that the 4 Gospels are ABOVE all other texts in the 66 Books of the Bible. Not equal, not below. That means above Paul’s letters.

    “Apostle” was not “just a word” to Jesus.
    Jesus spoke and specifically commended the Church in Ephesus, recorded by the Apostle John:
    “I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who CLAIM TO BE APOSTLES BUT ARE NOT, and have found them false.” [Revelation 2:2]

    Those are the Red Letters, the Words of Jesus himself. It sounds to me like Jesus is being kind of picky and hung up on the word “apostle”, but those are HIS words, not mine.

    Here is the link to your post about “discrediting Paul.”

    • Matthew do you know what it means that man must live by every word of god,,,,
      You are trying to provide camouflage for Islam with your lies…

      The false apostles you are inferring is Paul is Muslims, not Paul ..

      Did Jesus lie or was it Satan as an angel of light who appeared to Paul..

      2 Corinthians 11-13, 14, 3, 4, …Speaks of Satan coming as an angel of light.. This means he is a counterfeit of Jesus who is the light… He brings another gospel, Koran, that teaches another Jesus, Issa and another spirit, Allah… Satan’s ministers are transformed into apostles..
      V. 13, 14.. 15….For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
      V. 4..For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. …
      This is Satan’s kingdom of Islam..They also teach the law and the ordinances…

      V3..But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

      I have decided there are some that are crazy or just plain stupid and will not accept truth…

  82. Matthew why is it you do not know any of the mysteries in the Bible…..Like where satan’s seat is… I know… you should know..

    Rev 2-13..I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

    Satan’s seat is used interchangalbe with the word throne…. like Lucifer exalting his throne above the stars of God…. That is not the answer but it is a clue… Find it if you can……

    It might even help you to wake up to search for something other than lies about Paul

  83. John MacArthur – Strange Fire Conference October 2013 – Testing the Spirits

    “Any Holy-Spirit-filled preacher will be CHRIST-DOMINATED. CHRIST- DOMINATED, and present him in an accurate and exalting and truthful way. It is a matter of sound theology, but it’s also a matter of PRE-EMINENCE, and it’s also a matter of the Gospel clarity. So where you see any deficiency in the nature of Christ, or the PROMINENCE of Christ, the PRE-EMINENCE of Christ, or the Gospel, this is not the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus says in John 14, 15 and 16 when the Spirit comes he will show you ME. His ministry is to point to ME. He will lead you into all truth concerning ME. Anyone who is wrong on Christ or who diminishes Christ or who pollutes the Gospel or who DISTRACTS FROM THE SON to the Spirit is not operating in the Spirit. Not operating in the Spirit.”


    Below are 10 written statements, all taken from one man’s personal letters. Objectively speaking, can you say these 10 statements are “Christ-dominated, giving Pre-eminence and Prominence to Christ, and not distracting from the Son of God, Jesus”?

    .1) I became your father. Therefore I urge you to imitate me. My way of life agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church. [1 Corinthians 4]

    .2) Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment. [1 Corinthians 5]

    .3) Everything is permissible for me. [1 Corinthians 6]

    .4) I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. [1 Corinthians 9]

    .5) I plead with you brothers, become like me, for I became like you. [Galatians 4]

    .6) Let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus. [Galatians 6]

    .7) Join with others in following my example, brothers. [Philippians 3]

    .8) Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me – put it into practice. [Philippians 4]

    .9) Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. [Colossians 1]

    .10) Though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. [Colossians 2]

  84. Matthew, I just keep thinking you must have hated your father or maybe catholic preists who are called father.. You are irrational about Paul and you do not understand any of his words…
    Do you hate FATHER AND LOVE son of God which applies to you Matthew???

  85. Shinar aka Babylon… The mother of harlots… From Babylon to Pergamos from Pergamos to Rome!!! 2Tim. 2:15 says “rightfully deviding the word”. The letter in Revelation ch. 2 rebukes the church of Pergamos for fraternizing with those who held the doctrines of Balaam & the Nicolaitans. It was Balaam who led Israel to moral corruption, just before they were due to cross over the Jordan into the Promised Land. The Nicolaitans, a heretical sect who compromised with the pagan cults, had been rejected by the Ephesian church but were courted by the church of Pergamos. The Pergamos period began in 313 AD & continued until 538 AD. This was a period of deteriorating moral standards & doctrinal corruption. Satan had failed to destroy the Church through persecution so instead he endeavoured to destroy her through compromise. Christian standards were lowered, & a union was formed between Christianity & paganism. It was during the Pergamos period that the Church adopted many pagan practices. The seeds of paganism had already been sown into Rome when King Attalus III had bequeathed his title Pontifex Maximus to the pagan Roman emperors in 133 BC.
    In 322 Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, but kept the pagan title Pontifex Maximus. In his efforts to unite his empire in the early 300s, Emperor Constantine blended the interests of pagans and Christians. Many false teachings has infiltrated the daughter churches (aka Protestant churches); by way of Rome & Catholicism.
    A simple study of Constantine’s marrying of paganism & Christianity

 should be very easy to research.

    • Jose,
      good comment about Constantine.
      Here is some further insight. One of the false religions that he blended into Christianity was “Marcionism” which had already existed, based in Rome itself, for about 200 years.

      • Matthew, your intent is to destroy Christianity from within…
        The churches in Revelation are about end times as is most of the book of revelation…If not then you should know where satan’s seat is, and where satan dwells and what is the synagogue of satan and whot are the men who say they are jews but are not…These things are are mentioned in conjunction with the seven churches..
        You do not know…You do not understand the Word of God ……

  86. The message to the seven churches concerned the end of time….

    Show me by Bible references only the answers to questions below..
    Rev 2-2..who are the ones who say they are apostles and are not???
    Rev 2-9..who are those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
    Rev 2-11..What is the second death???
    Rev. 2-13 where is Satan’s seat???
    Rev 3-5 How does God blot names out of the Book of Life..(teach them old covenant laws and ordinances?)

    Rev 3-10… What is the HOUR OF TEMPTATION these churches must face??? This temptation tempts the entire earth
    Rev 3-11.. Wow, Did Jesus return during John’s lifetime and save tose chruches from the hour of temptation??? I THINK NOT..!!!!

  87. Al

    Here is a verse from the Torah that God showed me yesterday. I’ve never spent much time in Leviticus, thinking of it as mostly outdated laws about animal sacrifices (which are no longer needed, since they were fulfilled through Jesus, our perfect sacrifice.)

    “If a person sins because he does not speak up when he hears a public charge to testify regarding something he has seen or learned about, he will be held responsible.” [Leviticus 5:1]

    I think this instruction applies to us today as well. Do you?

    • good reason to follow Torah

    • Matthew,

      I don’t have the time right now to get into everything that needs to be said. I also don’t have the luxury of being able to be on here whenever I choose. But there are some things I need to say to you about what has been said to this point. Bear with me and I will get back with you soon. But I will say this concerning your short post:

      Wayiqra 5:1

      “And if a being sins, and hears the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he has seen, or known of it; he does not reveal it, then he shall bear his iniquity.”

      You are not that person! This is speaking of a person who is witness to someone making an oath or entering into a verbal agreement with another, and keeps silent if the situation should arise that what was sworn to is denied or broken, then HE (the person hearing the oath or agreement) will be found guilty also if he does not speak up. This is dealing with civil matters, not theological wrangling.

      • true, there is a difference between a witness and a judge

      • Hi Al,
        No rush, no pressure. To be honest, I was not thinking of myself as “that person”- rather, I thought you might be. My understanding of the fundamental application of this verse is, “if something needs to be said, and you know it, say it – in an appropriate time, place, and way.” Maybe that is too simple. The language in the translation you quoted seems confusing to me. Of course I appreciate that your time is not unlimited. Blessings.

        • Matthew,

          It seems that everything has come full circle. The discussion of Paul’s writings in relation to the Christian Church is much needed and has been taking place in a spirit of reconciliation and respect, at least for the most part. It is not an easy discussion and can get away from us easily if we don’t consider how we approach the subject.

          Your approach to all of this seems to be to poison the well rather than purify the water. We are at the end of the sixth and beginning of the seventh day and you feel it is the right time to tear down rather than build up based solely on how YOU understand scripture. You want to set the dynamics of the conversation with everyone else chasing their tails to answer questions that you have conceived that determines a persons salvation or lack there of, with little to no corroboration from any other source, except yourself.

          Everything you do and say is to lead others to your conclusion, invalidating any other scripture or writer, that does not support your ever erroneous and self proclaimed truth. Rather than help anything, you have done much damage. All you have done is solidified the understanding of the Christian Church, against the keeping of the commandments. You are working 100% against what you are claiming to uphold and represent.

          You have a right to your opinion, but as for myself, I find this an exercise in futility that is only going to bear thorns, with only pain and hurt to show for it in the end. I bear you no harm or hurt, but I see nothing positive coming out of this. With that said, I will refrain from further interaction with you as long as you hold to this ridiculous discussion you have generated.


          • Al

            The writing on this post here does not sound like the same person that I have been dialoging with previously. I don’t know where you got some of these ideas.

            My opinions or conclusions are not the issue. The issue is the opinion of Jesus. One particular point I raised was based on my observation of the words of Jesus in the 4 Gospels in my Bible (NIV). I see that when Jesus spoke the words “the Law,” Jesus always meant the Law of Moses, nothing else.

            I don’t know everything, maybe I missed something, there may be some interpretation issues that I am not aware of, and every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. But Marianne agrees with me, and neither you nor anyone else in the world so far has found any basis to disagree with this statement of fact about the text (not opinion).

            This particular point isn’t about the whole Bible, or the whole New Testament, or even the entire text of the 4 Gospels. It’s about the Red Letters, the words of Jesus in the 4 Gospels, and how Jesus used one particular term, “the Law.” If you give a Seventh Grade student a Red Letter NIV Bible, he could fact check it without too much trouble.

            The steps in looking at the Bible should be
            in other words,
            What does it say?
            What does it mean?
            How does it apply in life today?

            So before we start interpreting, we first need to agree- what did Jesus actually say? Before we start trying to “harmonize” the whole Bible and debate “what did Paul really mean” when he wrote about “the Law”, I want to listen to Jesus first.

            I want to hear first what JESUS said about “the Law” since I am following Jesus and trying to become more like Jesus was. I’m not saying all the 66 Books of the Bible are not important- but Jesus is the most important. So if we can directly face the words of Jesus and what “the Law” meant TO JESUS, then it seems we would have a good basis for discussion- otherwise, I guess not.

            Blessings in the name of Jesus / Yahshua

          • To anyone reading the post above in the name of “Al” who thinks that I am trying to “poison the well rather than purify the water:”

            Jesus warned us so many times to beware of the teaching of the Pharisees. It is poison, but appears righteous on the outside, and people swallow it without knowing or thinking. Most Christians, and many unbelievers also, know the reputation of the Pharisees as hypocrites.

            Yet the tradition surrounding the “New Testament” handed down from the Second Century heretic Marcion has blinded us to the fact that Paul was a Pharisee. Systematically, on dozens of points in Scripture, we have been programmed to simply believe Paul because Paul alone said so, and we ignore Jesus (and the 12 appointed Apostles.) We have been brainwashed into believing that the voice of Paul is the voice of God, and it overrides Jesus and every other voice in the Bible and in history.

            If “the well” is the 66 Books of the Bible, I am warning you that it contains the poison of Paul the Pharisee. I’m not poisoning the well, I’m identifying the poison that much the church has been drunk on for so long.

            To “purify the water” I am saying we need to start seeing the Scriptures more like Jesus did, (3 categories, Torah, Prophets, Writings) rather than as “one book” where every word is “the word of God.”

            Yes it’s my opinion that we should try to look at Scripture the way Jesus did- but it’s a provable fact that Jesus did see Scripture in 3 categories, in order of priority and authority, not as “one book”.

            The words of Jesus about the Pharisees apply directly to Paul and his writings, which poison so many people without them knowing:
            “Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it.” [Luke 11:44]

            • Mattthew, I am going to make one more attempt at this.

              Exodus 15:22-26

              ‘22 Then Moses [o]led Israel from the [p]Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. 23 When they came to Marah, they could not drink the waters [q]of Marah, for they were [r]bitter; therefore it was named [s]Marah. 24 So the people grumbled at Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?” 25 Then he cried out to the LORD, and the LORD showed him a tree; and he threw it into the waters, and the waters became sweet.”

              “There He made for them a statute and regulation, and there He tested them. 26 And He said, “If you will give earnest heed to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His sight, and give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have put on the Egyptians; for I, the LORD, am your healer.”

              Notice in the verses above that Moses led Israel into the wilderness for “three days” which, from the time of Messiah puts us at the doorway, if you will, to the seventh day of creation, the millennial rest (Shabbat) of Messiah. Notice Israel was not able to drink the water for bitterness, which is shown through their grumbling at Moses. The water is the Word of Yah and had become useless to them for the bitterness that permeated it. Water (His Word) brings bitterness when not given in the LIGHT of Messiah (Torah). It brings only “bitterness and division”=grumbling, as we see in this whole discussion.

              Moses then cried out to Yah and He showed him “a tree” (The Tree of Life=Messiah=Torah=His Word), which he threw into the waters and made it sweet. It is important to realize that it is the Word-Torah that Moses received at Sinai (Moses-Torah) that made the waters sweet. The next verse explains clearly that it was His Word (commandments=Instructions) that made the water sweet. His promise to Israel (both the Jew and the Gentile) was that if they drank of this sweet water (His Word=Messiah-Torah) He would be their Healer and keep them free of the diseases of the Egyptians=the paganism and captivity Egypt represented. That Word was for then and is for today and is what we see happening in His people now.

              I know of at least two different translations by Messianic Jews; one of the Renewed Covenant alone and the other of all 66 books. They both, while some of the wording may differ to a degree, convey the same message concerning Paul’s writings; that they are misunderstood and mistranslated. Most of Messianics, both Jewish and from the nations, at least as far as I have seen, believe this way. Most of the Messianic Jews I have read that believe Paul’s writings are false, write articles denouncing him, not requiring any kind of proficiency or mastery of the Hebrew language.

              I quoted to you before concerning Ephesians 2:15 that referred to Paul saying that the rules and regulations that were abolished were not the 613 written Instructions but rather the oral law of the Pharisees, which you emphatically denied (consequently giving rise to your seemingly new question; what does the term “the law” mean when spoken by Messiah?) But yet, we find that being consistent with what Messiah was doing in the book of Matthew, condemning the Pharisees because of their oral traditions. I found this to be consistent in both translations of the two Messianic Jewish translators.

              My question to you is, where is your scholarship on all of this, that causes YOU to take such a gigantic step in trying to overturn what is deemed to be scripture, by destroying the credibility of the man Paul, on the basis of what the term “the law” meant to Messiah and other innuendo? I am not saying Paul was perfect or that his writings are clear on all of this. I have talked to you at length about this. But that doesn’t necessarily mean his writings are to be thrown out like yesterday’s newspaper, just because people like you don’t like it or understand it. Is this part of Eastern Orthodox doctrine? Are the writings of Paul condemned by your Orthodox faith? Just trying to figure out how you make this kind of leap with no corroboration or backup, with everything based solely on your personal understanding of scripture, while you seem to have no foundation in the Hebrew language, culture, or theology, or anything to speak of, all the while denouncing those who do. How does that work, and you remain credible?

              Undoubtedly, there is a gap between what the Christian Church and Messianics believe concerning Paul and the Torah. But Messiah is opening the eyes of both Jews and Gentiles to this fact and the understanding of Paul’s writings are crucial in this, at least for the Christian Church. But in addition to that, it is also necessary for the Orthodox Jews so they will understand and recognize that their brothers and sisters are the “returning” (Teshuvah) Christian Church, following Messiah in His Torah.

              In the verses above in Exodus, we find this understanding in these last days, that the Torah is taught in the writings of Paul, making that which was bitter, sweet. And all of this for the purpose of bringing to mind and heart of those, just now coming out of Egypt, that Torah and Grace are one and that Jew and Gentile are meant to walk in both (Torah & Grace); one new man in Messiah.

              You are approaching Paul’s writings from a Greek understanding (as does the Christian Church) and trying to get a Hebraic result out of it (which is the opposite of the Christian Church). Not going to happen!!! If you want to reconcile Jew and Gentile in Messiah through Torah, you have to see it from the Hebrew perspective. It is the perspective, language, and culture, the scriptures were written from.

              There is one thing that is clear; you are a debater. Sounds like you have been on a debate team at some point, wearing your opponent down by subterfuge if necessary to win the debate, thus arriving at a consensus of your choosing leaving your opponent wondering what happened. You determine the criteria to be discussed in the narrow context you decide, and then draw your opponent in by asking, do you agree or disagree, thus drawing them onto your turf, without an understanding of the battle of words that awaits them; with most thinking it is just a search for truth, one can be verbally ambushed by a clever and accomplished debater. Maybe I am over stating all of this or giving you too much credit. Not sure on that one. But one thing that I have noticed, you are extremely witty and clever, which can be a good thing or a bad thing. This is just me trying to understand, WHY and WHAT drives you to the conclusions you hold fast to.

              Anyway, in the words of Alienated (from times past), NUFF SAID!

              Shalom and blessings to you.

              • Al

                I appreciate your passion for the truth. But I think your extensive learning and scholarship have blinded you to the actual text of the words of Jesus. What I am proposing is really more like “fact checking” – what does the term “the law” mean to Jesus in His own words? You don’t want to face this, because it undermines your interpretative model.

                I basically agree with you in this first part about symbolism of “tree”. You wrote, QUOTE:
                “Moses then cried out to Yah and He showed him “a tree” (The Tree of Life=Messiah=Torah=His Word), which he threw into the waters and made it sweet.” Some say the “tree” is the cross of Jesus- that could be added in too without contradiction.

                But then, you seem to make a huge leap (really into Replacement Theology) and say, QUOTE:
                “In the verses above in Exodus, we find this understanding in these last days, that the Torah is taught in the writings of Paul, making that which was bitter, sweet.”

                So you think the writings of Paul are really the “tree” because they have replaced Jesus and the actual Torah?

                I’ve stated my observation the when Jesus said “the law” He meant only the Law of Moses, nothing else. You have not produced a single verse of Scripture to contradict this, and neither has anyone else in the world.

                I choose to speak like Jesus, not like Paul. Regardless of “what Paul meant’ when he wrote about “the law” Paul doesn’t have authority to redefine the word and give it a different meaning than Jesus did. Paul’s definition doesn’t replace the definition of Jesus- at least not for me.

                • Matthew,

                  No one said that Paul’s writings are “the tree”. Messiah and Torah=the tree. Messiah is the embodiment of Torah. They are one. What is being said is that Paul’s writings upheld Torah, whether the Christian Church or anyone else gets it yet or not. If someone cannot understand what Paul is saying, how do they judge what his words mean? They can’t! That is the whole purpose for this. It is not about me and what I think and it is not about you and what you think. It should behoove us to use every resource we have and be willing to accept an inconvenient truth, if that is what it takes. We all rise or fall based on what truth we adhere to. I personally don’t believe that accepting Paul’s words or rejecting them are directly necessary for salvation through Messiah. For me personally, I don’t want to be found working diligently against those things Messiah has set in place. You see Messiah and Paul at odds, then you need to continue on the course you are on. I believe it is the wrong course to take, but it is your choice.


                  • Al
                    I agree we should “use every resource we have.”
                    But I’m saying the TOP resource is the words of Jesus, above all other resources in the Bible or elsewhere. Jesus is the lens to see through, is what I’m saying. Do you agree?

                    • Matthew,

                      To be perfectly honest with you, the only thing that is really clear in all of your comments, is the fact that you have a virulent hate for the man Paul and are looking to destroy him and his writings. It is all you talk about. You don’t hold up the words of Messiah Yahshua as a shining light to truth, you use it as a club for the primary purpose of trying to discredit Paul. You are more obsessed with Paul than the Christian Church is. Paul is the focal point of all your posts. That alone should tell you something.

                      You have been given other highly credible sources to consider, concerning validating or invalidating Paul and his writings, but you refuse to even consider those. You don’t even give it a second thought. You say that a matter is established in the mouth of two or three witnesses, which is true. You go to your Greek text, with your Greek understanding, and apply that knowledge to Paul’s writings and condemn him based on your own understanding, and what you “believe” Messiah is saying based on what one term means. You have not done the due diligence you so demandingly require of others. Yet you cannot understand why others react in the way they do regarding your comments.

                      You have set yourself up as judge, jury and executioner in regards to Paul. Your case in a civil court would be thrown out based on its lack of merit and credibility. How do you think you will fare when standing before the Judgment Seat of Messiah, on that day? The ascendency of Messiah and His Word-Torah in these last days, will not come about by a vacuum, created by the discrediting of Paul and his writings. It will rather come through the affirmation of His Word and the fact that He is the only salvation for mankind. You are actually giving god like status to Paul with you obsession to take him down. You are unwittingly giving affirmation to the fact that you believe Paul’s words are more powerful than Messiah’s Word.

                      Find the Truth of Yah; Tell that Truth; be a productive positive part of establishing His Kingdom, both Jew and Gentile.


                    • My standard of what is “right” is the testimony of Jesus (recorded by Matthew Mark Luke & John), which harmonizes with The Law of Moses and the Prophets- it’s not “Scripture”, the 66 books of the Bible that supposedly all harmonize together. Therefore, I want to seek first to understand the words of Jesus before moving to other “Scripture.” If anyone wants to talk, I’m willing. If not, then not.

                • matthew

                  I think you are putting words in Al’s mouth.

  88. The Bible is not “a book.”

    It is a collection of writings, 66 books, with varying levels of authority, priority, importance, inspiration, and weight. Neither Jesus nor any author of Scripture ever said or wrote that all Scripture was equal.

    (The closest thing to this would be the one unsupported witness of Paul writing in the middle of a personal letter to a friend “All Scripture is God-breathed.” No one else ever said such a thing, only Paul here once, and even Paul didn’t say that all Scripture was equal.)

    All Scripture was not equal to Jesus. That is why Jesus summed up for us “the first and greatest commandment and the second” based on the Torah and the Prophets (without mentioning the third category, the Writings, and before any of the New Testament was even written.)

    Jesus never used the word “Bible” or “Tanakh” either, because Jesus never saw the Scriptures as “a book” or all equally authoritative. Jesus knew the order of authority- Torah, Prophets, Writings.

    So which books of the Bible are the most important?
    It depends who you ask.

    .1) To Orthodox Jews, The Torah

    .2) To Liberal Jews, maybe Ecclesiastes

    .3) To Radical Liberal Feminists, Proverbs 8 & 9 about Lady Wisdom

    .4) To the second Century heretic Marcion, ten of Paul’s letters and an abbreviated Gospel of Luke was his ENTIRE “Bible”. He rejected all other books.

    .5) To Martin Luther and the Reformers, Paul’s letter to the Romans was “the God-given key to understanding all Scripture.” So even though they also had the ideas of “Sola Scriptura” and “interpret Scripture with Scripture”, what they really meant was “interpret Scripture with PAUL’s Scripture.” They placed Paul’s writings above all other Scripture and above Jesus, in actual practice.

    .6) To many Roman Catholic “Mary worshippers”, John chapter 2, the wedding at Cana.

    .7) To most people today who call themselves Evangelical “Christians”, Paul’s letters. They will say they follow Jesus and they’re “Living by the Book,” and talk about the Bible as just “One Book”, “God’s rule book”, and how “it’s all the word of God” and they “believe all of it.” But if you stop to analyze whose voice they are listening to, which parts of the Bible they are usually reading, and whom they are following and imitating, it’s really Paul. Not Jesus. Paul’s sins and mistakes are ALWAYS theoretical, never ever specific. They silently unconsciously assume that Paul is the only man in all history whose testimony is valid with no other witnesses. If they don’t have an immediate justification for something Paul said or did, they always have the sure-fire answer “Paul wrote this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.” Then they can act like a cult member and cut off any conversation without thinking, saying, “it’s not profitable.”

    .8) To Jesus, the books that record his words and actions are the most important- the 4 Gospels, Matthew Mark Luke & John. This also happens to be the “Orthodox” opinion (as in the Eastern Orthodox Church), and it is basically my opinion too. (I note that the words of Jesus are also present in what we could call the New Testament books of Prophecy, Acts and Revelation.) Jesus was in harmony with the Torah and the Prophets, but above them.

    So if someone has the opinion that the words of Jesus are NOT the most important words in the New Testament, really above all other words in the world, I would like to ask why.

    • Man does not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD OF GOD…
      This verse shows us that the Holy Ghost is the breathe of Jesus, aka God…
      John 20-22..And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: ..Jesus breathe is Holy Ghost spirit…which means Jesus wrote the Bible through men..
      1 Peter 1-21…For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

      Revelation of the Scriptures also comes by the Holy Ghost breathe of God…

      Acts 2-2..And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And these were all filled with the Holy Ghost..The breathe of God is the Holy ghost..

      If God had breathed on you you might understand the Bible instead of lying about it daily.
      You are part of the Hebrew Roots movement which is lies from hell..

  89. Matthew 26-26..And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
    Jesus told satan, “man does not live by bread alone but by every wrd of God.”
    You Mathew not only change meanings but try to eliminate words and writers of the Bible..

  90. 2 Pet34 3, 15, 16..And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; v. 16..As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    Verse 17..Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

  91. The Bible – continued.

    The 66 Books of Scripture, what we call the Bible, contain the written word of God.
    Jesus the Jewish Messiah is the Living Word of God, the Word made flesh, the fulfillment of the Torah and the Prophets. So when we talk about “The voice of God”, “The word of God”, “The commandments of God” we really need to look first at the New Testament books by the 4 Gospel writers, the 5 books of the Torah, and the Old Testament Prophets. These are what the Apostle John was referring to the last two times he mentioned “commandments.”

    John wrote of “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.” [Revelation 12:17] and, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.” [Revelation 14:12]

    I affirm that all parts of all 66 books of the Bible are “Scripture.” But the third, least important, lowest category, the Old Testament Writings and the New Testament letters, are neither “God’s commandments” nor “the testimony of Jesus.” Both Solomon and Paul did, said, and wrote some things that were useful, and other things that were flat out wrong, which are recorded in the Scripture. I’m not saying Solomon and Paul are not important- but they are LESS important than “God’s commandments” and “the testimony of Jesus.”

    Since Satan can’t get people to ignore the Bible completely, he works overtime on religious people to blind them to what “The Bible” actually is. He uses a “bait and switch” tactic, to get people all hyped up talking about “The Word of God” but ignoring the ACTUAL word of God, “God’s commandments” and “the testimony of Jesus.” Instead, Satan gets them to focus on the third, least important, lowest category of the text, the “Scripture” like Paul’s personal letters or the writings of Solomon.

    Here is one current example in a church: (Of course a pastor needs to be free to preach the message God gives him, sermons should be creative, and there isn’t a particular formula. But the following illustrates my point.)

    In the pastor’s sermon, he referred to “the word of God” and “when God speaks.”
    The sermon notes contained only two passages from the Bible.
    Psalms 31:14-15, and Joshua 1:1-9
    Nothing from the Gospels, nothing from the Torah.

    Yes, we do have the voice of God (Yahweh) speaking to Joshua right after Moses died. And what is God saying to Joshua?
    “Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you…Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth…” [Joshua 1:7-8]

    Was God telling Joshua about the “66 Books of the Bible” or not to let the Book of Romans depart from your mouth? No.
    God was talking about the Law of Moses, the Torah.

    But of course, as we all are trained to do as Evangelicals, the pastor immediately shifted the meaning to start talking about the need to study “The Bible.” And he announced that the church would be doing a daily devotional study for the next month in the Paul’s letter to the Romans!

    This kind of thing happens all the time. Systematically, when Evangelicals preach or teach from the Bible, any reference to any kind of written Scripture is automatically expanded to mean “the 66 books of the Bible.” This is reading something into the text that isn’t there. And then, typically, the preacher will shift the focus again to a different portion of “Scripture,” especially Paul’s letters, and narrow it down again, giving Paul’s letters the same weight as “God’s commandments” or “the testimony of Jesus” that the other author was actually referring to.

    The false rationalization is, Paul wrote “All Scripture is God-breathed”, and Paul’s letters are “Scripture”, therefore they are equal to “God’s commandments” and “the testimony of Jesus.”
    This is a demonic stronghold. It is pervasive in Evangelical churches, and we are so used to hearing this we think it’s correct. But it is not – it is wrong.

    Jesus was “picking and choosing” the first and greatest commandment and the second, when He picked and chose the Torah and the Prophets and chose not to mention the “Writings.” I am picking and choosing what Jesus was picking and choosing.

    • Theologians have a tendency to complicate the simplicity of the Gospel. When one thinks too much about the words, and their meanings, or the writers, and their intent, Lost is the revelation of grace which all the apostles held to.
      Grace is unmerited favor. Obedience is either coerced or righteous. Our response to unmerited grace should be obedience from the heart. Obedience to what? Not the Law, but to produce the fruit of the Spirit which the Law speaks nothing about. See 1 Peter 1:5ff, and Gal. 5.

      This being the whole point of the sermon on the mount (Matt. 5-7). That our righteousness exceed that of the Pharisees, who were hard core legalists. They Obeyed the letter of the Law, but their heart was never transformed.

      It is only with the Gospel of grace, and the full knowledge thereof, that we respond to this unmerited favor with righteous obedience, rather than legalistic obedience. If you are merely obeying the law, for the laws sake, you are not being led by the Spirit, but by human understanding and teaching. When we are led by the Spirit, we will produce the fruit of the Spirit. Where the Spirit leads will never contradict the Law.

      When man focuses on law alone, they are succumbing to human pride, which says we can somehow earn God’s favor. This contradicts grace. Righteous obedience comes from a lifelong struggle against this pride.

      His unmerited favor is not a license to sin either, But he knows we will fail him. That is why he gave it to us as a free gift. Much like the Parable of the ten minas, the question is not that we bury it in the ground, but that we are productive with that grace entrusted to us. Those who fall into legalism are the ones who bury it in the ground, because they feared the master as a hard man. The master never had a return on his investment, a transformed heart. Those who produced fruit (multiplied the investment,) were entrusted with more.

    • Matthew Did peter lie????
      2 Pet34 3, 15, 16..And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; v. 16..As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
      Verse 17..Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

      • good point

        • On December 28 2013 DJ brought up Peter’s second letter in this post.

          The next day, I responded with this direct, specific, detailed, point-by-point posted response, including the following:
          .1) “PROPHECY of Scripture” vs “All Scripture”
          .2) “BELOVED BROTHER Paul” vs. “Apostle Paul”
          .3) “THESE MATTERS” – prophecy of Scripture, vs. “All Scripture”

          • I think the point being made was that Peter did not condemn Paul as a false apostle, but accepted him as a brother…….if paul was really wrong, Peter would have rejected him

            • Yes, Paul was a brother.
              Once when Jesus was speaking He said;
              “The men on Nineveh…repented at the preaching of Jonah”…and “The Queen of the South…came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom…” [Matthew 12:39-45]

              Jesus didn’t condemn Jonah or Solomon. But neither did Jesus say that it’s right to disobey God and when God tells you to go one way, go the opposite direction instead, pout about it saying you would rather die than go where God said to go, and later whine about it.

              And Jesus didn’t say that it’s OK to follow other gods, while married to 1000 women… Jesus didn’t say follow Jonah’s example or imitate Solomon, but He didn’t “reject” them either. You are right.

              As noted previously, in the unanimous opinion of Jesus and the Original Apostles (who knew Jesus personally and followed Him faithfully for 3 1/2 years, and were therefore qualified to be His Witnesses), there are only 12 Apostles and the 12th is Matthias.

              • I think the scripture from peter is completely lost on you

                • Marianne,
                  If you are referring to 2 Peter 3, I think Peter’s main them in this chapter is the last days. His reference to Paul seems sort of like a footnote connected to this theme. Peter writes about Paul connecting Paul’s writings with “our Lord’s patience means salvation” and “speaking in them of THESE MATTERS”. This connects Paul’s writings about the last days with Peter’s writing here about the last days. Peter isn’t making a blanket statement that every word Paul ever wrote or said is “the word of God.”

                  I see Peter here doing the same sort of thing that I sometimes do on this blog. If someone else posts a huge amount, and a lot of it is wrong, it would be a full-time job to try to correct everything, and the person probably doesn’t have an ear to listen anyway. So I see Peter trying to “love his enemy” and find something positive to say about Paul, and one small area where they seem to be in agreement, about the last days. At the same time, I also see Peter putting some distance between him and Paul, in a polite loving way.

                  Do you see this in 2 Peter 3?

                  • matthew

                    long winded arguments are, in general, tiresome. not everyone has the same amount of time to spend on the page. if one gives a long argument, others may just skim it , or pass over it. especially if the argument is repetitious.

                    • Marianne,
                      If there is a particular important point in the Scripture of Peter that I completely missed, could you tell me what it is? I have ears to listen.

                  • Matthew If these verses are about the future they fit you perfectly…You are unstable and wrestle against the words of Paul..

                    2 Peter 3-15,16,17..And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

                    Read verse 16 carefully..And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO according to the WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM HATH WRITTEN UNTO YOU…

                  • you seem to insist that Peter shares your view of Paul, when there is no evidence for that

                    • Do you agree that Peter mentioning Paul’s writings is specifically referring to writings about “last days,” and not a blanket endorsement that everything Paul wrote must be 100% true simply because Paul wrote it?

                  • no, you are making an illogical correlation..

                    Peter thought they were in the last days back then, which is why he quoted Joel at pentecost……

                    Peter did not say anything negative about paul…so get over it.

                    there is nothing that Peter said that supports your negative view of paul

                    Peter said that Paul spoke according to the wisdom given him….

                    and YOU are saying that Paul was wrong, which contradicts Peter.

                    • Jesus said, “Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.” [Luke 6:26]

                      Are you saying that no one should ever say anything negative about Paul, and no one should ever say “Paul was wrong” about anything?

                  • there is nothing written to back up your argument.

                    quit arguing about this, and reading things into the content that aren’t there.

                    • Evangelical tradition constantly puts words in Peter’s mouth, “reading things into the content that aren’t there.” Peter never recognized Paul as “an apostle”, and never said “all Scripture is God-breathed”.

                      Peter’s reference to Paul’s writings as “Scripture” doesn’t mean they are equal to the words of Jesus. Just because Peter isn’t constantly fighting and criticizing most of the people around him (like Paul) does not mean that Peter was “giving a blanket endorsement” to Paul.

                    • Matthew
                      You say Peter never recognized Paul as “an apostle”

                      I say when Peter eat food with the Jews Paul called him hypocrite and said we shall not follow the Jew laws about food and Peter listened to him. If Peter didn’t accept Paul as an apostle then Peter would not listen to him.

              • Matthew prove by the words of Jesus that Matthais was the 12th apostle…I have alredy shown you that the apostles took it upon themselves to fulfill the prophecy of Judas being replaced. They are who numbered Matthias with the apostles…..They prayed about it but Jesus did not respond… Jesus however did choose Paul and His words prove it…Acts 1-20 through 26…and Acts 9-4 through 18..Not to mention his wisdom and deeds..

              • matthew

                now you are putting meanings into things that I said.

                just quit….you are getting obnoxious.

      • great point as well e313ruth.
        My point is that it does not take a degree in theology to be a Christian.
        where there is contradiction in the scripture, it is humanities understanding that is flawed, and not the inspired writings of scripture. In theology, the tendency is to overcomplicate the simple.
        Jesus simplified the Law to Love the Lord with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. This is the intent and spirit of the law.
        Where as the law alone taught us how to tolerate and get along with one another, it did not teach us to love our enemies, or bless those who persecute us, or even to love our partners. It just taught us to not act on our hearts desires. So we are told in the law not to murder, but the emotion of hating our enemy is still there. Or we are told not to commit the act of adultery, but the lust is not dealt with. But when we are met by the cross, and our unworthiness to receive what was done there, we can only respond by loving those who are not worthy of our love as well. To love one another as Christ Loved us.
        That is why I love the list of virtues in 1 Peter. They all start with faith, but end at agape, or Godly Love. The Law is powerless to accomplish this in us, but the cross can. This is what was so hard to understand for the jewish people of the day, and why it was a stone of stumbling for them. The Law had become such a “security blanket” for them, that they could not let go of it. But the gentiles who had no Law, were easy to receive the gospel.

        Simply, Love is a word of the heart, Obey is an external action. You can obey, and not love, but you cant love and not obey. He wants us to Love and act on that love (obey).

        • Hi Sandyshore,

          I am glad to see your interest in this discussion, and I am very happy to discuss and interact with people who disagree with me- if they can explain from the text of the Bible why they think I’m wrong.

          With love and respect, I must note that your post above is “begging the question.” You wrote, QUOTE:
          “where there is contradiction in the scripture, it is humanities understanding that is flawed, and not the inspired writings of scripture.”

          This is exactly the issue I’m bringing up. You are implying here that the 66 books of the Bible are all equally authoritative, one unified voice that all harmonizes and is equally important, equally inspired, and equally the word of God, the commandments of God, the voice of God. I’m saying, no it isn’t. I’m saying that All Scripture does not harmonize, there are levels of authority and priority, and Jesus is on top, not Paul.

          I have taken the time to extensively document why I believe this, based on the text of these same 66 books of the Bible. Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

          I am saying that the voice of Jesus is authoritative above every other voice, and the words and actions of Jesus harmonize with the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Where someone, such as Paul many times, disagrees with Jesus, Paul was wrong. Frequently, Paul’s words and actions do not “harmonize” with Jesus.

          Other than your interpretation of Paul’s statement buried in the middle of a personal letter to his young friend Timothy, “All Scripture is God-breathed”, could you explain specifically, with specific Scripture verses, why you believe that everything Paul said and did harmonizes with Jesus without any contradiction?

          • Hello Matthew,
            I am glad you responded.
            Being someone who has been on all sides of this debate, I trust you hear me out.

            Do you remember the scene in the national treasure movie with the different colored spectacles. When one was flipped, one part of a map was revealed, or when another more of that map is revealed ?
            Accepting the fact that you have seen this movie or are familiar with this scene, I believe that human understanding, and the teachings of man in general fall short, are incomplete, or however you want to describe it. (I could find hundreds of scriptures for this, but the oft quoted Prov. 3:5-6, is probably the most familiar.)

            It is not the scripture itself that is incomplete, it is the glasses we look through, which is our mental capacity. Paul, was an apostle to the gentiles. His teaching was geared for the gentiles largely. His writing reflects his view as seen through his “gentile glasses”. Contrarily, James was the head of the church in Jerusalem, and his writing is for primarily Jewish Audiences, thus his writing is reflect the world through “Jewish glasses”. Thus Paul is addressing Gentile concerns in his writing, and James is addressing Jewish concerns in his writing.
            Both of them are men. Their writing is incomplete theologically. You in some ways see this accurately enough. The message of Jesus is universal though. He completely outlined his teaching in the sermon on the Mount, and completed it on the cross, and with his resurrection.
            Where your error comes, is that you view Paul with the monocle of James in your eye. By this I mean the idea that faith without works is dead, therefore the law applies to our actions.
            This apparent contradiction, is resolved with the framework I wrote about above. The Law tells us do not murder. Jesus tells us if you hate another you commit murder. The Pharisees of Jesus day never murdered anyone, but they were guilty of murder in their hearts. We are told that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, meaning our hearts must be transformed. The law is powerless to do this. It can only point to our failure. The Fruit of the Spirit are the successes of a life led by the Spirit. It is the Work of God in our hearts
            The general notion is that James’ concept of faith without works is dead, has often been seen as pointing back to the Law, when in fact is in unison with Paul’s writings in Galatians 5 on the fruit of the Spirit.
            If You want to look up something in scripture, James is talking about faith producing fruit, not bondage to the Law, and Paul is not emphasizing this, because he is not dealing with a Jewish audience, except in Galatians 5, where he is opposing Judaizers who are trying to put the gentiles under the bondage of the Law.

            I am also opposed to the teachings of the Word faith movement which teaches “Hyper grace” as well. This is probably what you are calling “Paul worship”. The teaching here is that we have no obligation once we have received his unmerited favor. To the Contrary, Jesus has entrusted his grace (unmerited favor) upon those who believe in him. Peter in writing of the virtues I addressed above writes: “For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Thus we are adding to faith; virtue, to virtue; Knowledge…all the way to Love (Agape). This is the road we are on in our walk. As long as they are increasing, you are producing fruit. The Minas that you were given are being multiplied. But falling back into the bondage of the Law is not producing fruit.

            Just because Paul may be incomplete in his teaching, does not mean he contradicts or is wrong in relation to Jesus’ teaching. Just like James is not complete in his teachings, Or John or peter or Luke, or Matthew. But when they are all put together, they are a unified whole. To remove one part as authoritative is to never come to a complete understanding. I would say the same to anyone who wants to ignore the writings of James because they do not fit their theology. The Problem is not the Word of God, it is the persons theology/understanding that is problematic.

            I was a bit rushed, so sorry if this is a bit of a poorly structured comment. I have no time to refine it right now, or proof read, thought it should get the point across. Marcionism tried to remove all but paul, Hebrew roots people are trying to remove paul. Both are in error. When all the monacles are flipped the entire map is visible.

            • Dear Sandyshore,
              You are willing to think. I appreciate that. It is rare these days.

              I see the world through rose-colored lenses. Actually, RED lenses. The RED LETTERS, the words of Jesus recorded by the 4 Gospel writers Matthew Mark Luke John.

              Your analogy of eyeglasses is good, so going with that idea, I have 4 lenses. You could say I have 2 bifocal lenses if they were eyeglasses, mounted on the two earpieces of The Law of Moses and the Prophets.

              You are still indirectly “begging the question” of whether “All Scripture is God-breathed” simply because Paul said so. Only Paul said such a thing, once, in the middle of a personal letter. You interpret this (according to the prevailing Evangelical mindset) as meaning every word of the 66 books of the Bible is equal in authority and they all harmonize perfectly without contradiction because it is all one unified “word of God.”

              I say no. And the words of Jesus also indicate “no” as I’ve documented. This is the very question I am raising. I am saying that the 66 books of the Bible are NOT all equal, they are NOT one book. But you assume the answer is “yes”, and you continue with your reasoning based on this assumption that I am questioning. You quote various Bible verses without distinguishing between the words of Jesus and the words of others. This is a classic example of “begging the question.”

              I submit to you that neither Paul NOR James should be lenses. They are both part of the rims AROUND the lenses of Matthew Mark Luke & John. Often rims around eyeglasses are helpful and useful for giving support to the lenses. Sometimes, the rims actually block people from seeing something clearly, especially if they are big and bulky. In any event, ultimately, the rims are not absolutely necessary. (I know. I had a pair or rimless glasses for years.)

              The absolutely essential parts of eyeglasses are the lenses themselves, and the two earpieces, which may be bolted directly to the lenses in necessary (as my personal eyeglasses used to be.)

              To the multiple choice question,
              “Which lenses should we look through”?
              .1) Paul
              .2) James
              .3) Both
              .4) Neither
              You are stating the answer should be “Both.”
              I’m saying no, the answer should be “Neither.”

              I’m saying JESUS is the lens (recorded in the Bible by the 4 Gospel writers and hanging on the Law of Moses and the Prophets.)

              I think you are on the right track. At least you don’t say “Paul THE Apostle to the Gentiles had the complete revelation.”

              In the post above
              I listed 8 common lenses that people look through in Scripture.
              The mindset you have described is #7.
              I am #8, with the RED LETTER glasses, the words of Jesus.

          • Upon rereading your comment, you said you wanted scripture to back up my claim.
            There are so many that harmonize that it is hard to find where one would start. So starting with Jesus as you suggest, The Sermon on the mount is the framework for this. Matthew 5-7. I would also point you to acts, and when the apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking at Solomon’s porch. Or Stephens defense before being executed, in particular 7:51-53. Notice the Title he gives Jesus is the righteous One. Meaning he was the only one who could be righteous through the Law. Though others in the Old Testament were deemed righteous, They all fell short.

            James in his introduction writes of being made perfect.
            “And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.” 1:4 Last time I checked, the Law said nothing of “steadfastness”. This being one of the virtues Peter wrote about. John talks of God’s Love being perfected in us. 1 John 4:7-12. This passage in fact says exactly what I wrote about above. Read this through to verse 21. In particular verse 20. Again the Law says nothing of Loving our brothers, it just talks of not harming them.

            Now I know Paul agrees with this because of what he wrote in Galatians on the fruit of the Spirit, So I think that is every author , with the exception of Jude, but for Lack of time and space I will not get into. Is that enough “witnesses” for you?

            • Hi again Sandyshore,

              In your short post here, you completely lost me. I have no idea what you are talking about. I would like to discuss the words of Jesus.

              So you have my undivided attention regarding what you mean by
              “There are so many that harmonize that it is hard to find where one would start. So starting with Jesus as you suggest, The Sermon on the mount is the framework for this. Matthew 5-7.”

              Harmonize what? Framework for what? I don’t get it at all. (For the moment at least, let’s set aside all those other people or verses you mentioned, and focus on the words of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.) Blessings in the name of Jesus.

              • Matthew,
                For me, this is not about equality of books, or theological supremacy. This is about every word being God Breathed.

                In my first comment, I outlined the simple framework, the eyeglasses, that make every word harmonize.

                To put it simply:
                Man-sin-Law-grace-fruit-redemption and a new creation in Christ.

                What you believe is Man-sin-Law-grace-Law. This is a misinterpretation of the Law being written on our hearts, and the placing of the individual back under the yoke of the Law.

                Jesus came not to put us back under the yoke of the Law, But under his yoke which is not heavy. That is to make us free to produce the fruit of the Spirit.

                As Paul puts it in Gal. 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

                But because you have deemphasized Paul’s teaching, you cannot see how this, Galatians 5, is a directly related to The sermon on the mount.

                But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

                Being under the law, is walking by the flesh, being under the Law of Love is to walk by the Spirit.

                I do not want to get into a long winded theological debate here, as they often lead to warfare, and God is not allowed to do his work. It is also better if you discover the truth, rather than me dictate it to you. What I hope this does is get you to put on the glasses that I wrote about, and see if what I say is true. This is what being a Berrean is all about.

                Know this though, I am not trying to lead you into “Hyper grace”, and the teaching of men such as Joel Osteen, or Joseph Prince, which leads to lawlessness. But rather to walk on the narrow path that leads to righteousness.

                May God be your teacher. Psalm 25:5-9

                • Sandyshore,

                  With all due respect, you are dodging the issue, and “begging the question” again. You wrote, QUOTE:
                  “For me, this is not about equality of books, or theological supremacy. This is about every word being God Breathed.
                  ….. that make every word harmonize.”

                  I’m saying the books are NOT equal, every word in the 66 books is NOT God-breathed, and so they DON’T “harmonize,” because Jesus IS theologically supreme. You are begging the question, insisting the opposite without giving any reason, and then continuing with your argument.

                  I said I’m ready and willing to discuss the words of Jesus you referred to in the Sermon on the Mount. You ignore this, don’t quote Jesus at all, and instead start quoting Paul and talking about Paul and Paul’s ideas, and your own ideas, and you mention a Psalm.

                  Lets be reasonable and address the underlying issue, which is “what is the Bible, and are all the Scriptures in the 66 books equal.” Rather than debating the definition of words like inerrant, infallible, inspired, God-breathed, etc. lets keep it basic.

                  Other than your interpretation of Paul’s comment “All Scripture is God-breathed”, can you give me any other reason to believe that all Scripture is EQUAL?

  92. Matthew you said
    I am saying that the voice of Jesus is authoritative above every other voice, and the words and actions of Jesus harmonize with the Law of Moses and the Prophets. Where someone, such as Paul many times, disagrees with Jesus, Paul was wrong. Frequently, Paul’s words and actions do not “harmonize” with Jesus.

    If Jesus harmonized with the law of Moses why did all the pharisees and sadusees who practiced Moses law disagree with him at all times and these had Jesus and most apostles killed..

    John 8 Jesus said these pharisees were children of Satan and were liars like their father Satan..

    Read Matthew 23 about yourself and the pharisees who sit in Moses seat…

    V. 2..Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:

    V.15..Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves…The Lord pronounced seven woes on these pharisees.. Would these be the woes in Revelation..??? And the Hebrew Roots movement today???

    V.33..Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

  93. Matthew is like Adam…He understands good and evil like the serpent.. Genesis 3-22…..He like satan in the temptation is saying IT IS WRITTEN… to prove his own personal interpretation of the Bible.. He does not as Jesus said to do, live by every word of God but he lives by old covenant and Moses law..So did the pharisees who had Jesus and the apostles killed and so do muslims do likewise.
    Scarcely will the righteous be saved during these great deceptions..

    • e1313ruth,
      I respect your beliefs, and understand your theology and agree with large parts of it. I understand your anger and frustration. If there is one thing that I would like to correct you on it is your approach. Do not try to convince people of the truth, let them discover it themselves. Just point them in the right direction.
      Matthew is making some valid points, that we do not follow man, but follow Christ Jesus. Israel followed men, whether it was Moses, or David, or Manasseh and Ahab. That is why they went astray. because they followed men and not God. Let’s not make the same mistake in following Paul alone, or James alone, or any other modern day teacher. Follow Jesus.

      I stumbled on this site looking for info about Ariell Sharone, read some comments, and felt the need to comment. I do not have much time…nor do we as the church. Learn to love your enemies before its too late.
      Love bears all things…1 Cor. 13:7

      • Sandy, I am not angry and I am not frustrated….I am merely doing what the Lord commanded…..Eze. 33-3 through 9…Also I have not heard anything of value from Mathew…As for love.. I love the people enough to warn them about men like Matthew..
        As for Matthew being like the serpent in understanding good and evil… All descendants of Adam inherited this condition…This is why we must put on the mind of Christ..
        As for Matthews opinion of Paul it is because Paul exposes all the lies of Hebrew Roots deception…

        Matthew himself is following mens opinions and words when he
        says Matthias is the 12th apostles…Men chose Matthias as an apostle to replace Judas, ..Jesus did not choose Matthias..He chose Paul…
        Things are hidden in scriptures so those appointed like Judas can fulfill their roles in end times….Their lies make the truth clearer..

  94. Matthew you should check your birth certificate…Surely your real name is Judas

    Matt..4-3..And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
    Todays Judas says to Christians, turn these stone commandments, etc., into bread…Whereas Jesus said Moses doctrines ARE NOT BREAD. In John 6-32..
    Matt.. 4-4…But he(Jesus) answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
    Todays Judas says man must live by the words of Jesus and Moses only…and then he disfigures them to fit his stone dead doctrines….

    Mat. 4-5, 6…..Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
    Judas says today to reborn Sons of God, cast yourself down from the heavenly realm with Jesus and eat of my old covenant stony doctrine…….lest you are afraid you might stumble on my doctrines and turn your feet out of the way of Christ …
    Matt. 4-7.. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God….Seems like you can’t play footsie with Satan or Judas without consequences..

    Personally I think these temptations are only the beginning for those that follow the Hebrew Roots deceptions… Soon they will be delivered to their long awaited messiah, namely Mohammed and his ministration of death, ISlam..

    Matthew 4-8, 9..AGAIN, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. …

    Notice Satan takes Jesus into a high place AGAIN…The first high place is the high place of God of V. 5….The second high place is the high place of baal worship…and Satan promises Jesus the world if He will fall down and worship him as the God of Abraham…
    Matt. 4-10..Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

    The temptation of Jesus is example men are to follow when confronted with groups like the Hebrew Roots lie and with counterfeit messiahs like Mohammed…I am also sure the stones Satan wants turned to bread are also about the doctrines and practices of Islam which are very close to Moses ministration of death……

    Today’s temptation of the world..
    Rev 3-9, 10 synagogue of Satan whereby men say they are Jews, aka Hebrew roots and/or roots to Abraham-Ishmael. But are liars..
    Synagogue of Satan whereby Satan is worshipped as the God of Abraham..By the way Matthew since you do not believe Jesus is God what is your God’s name???

    The temptation of Matt 4 tells us more if we look closely…For instance ….Satan saying IF YOU ARE SON(S) of God -v.3….Satan knew full well he would tempt the Sons of God with Hebrew STONE Roots deception in the last hour…by telling them to turn stones into bread…
    V. 5,6, Satan also knew he would tempt the sons of God in the heavenly realm with Jesus during their lifetime…Rev 12 is that heavenly realm…These are part of the wonders in heaven…They are the stars of heaven that are adopted into the Abrahamic family which are as the stars of heaven…Lucifer is also one of the wonders in heaven..He as promised has exalted his throne in the heavens…His gang cause one third of these in the heavenly realm to be cast down…He teaches them Hebrew roots and/or Islam….He in truth is collecting the tares out of Christianity for their journey to hell aka Islam..

  95. Today I heard a sermon about the temptation of Jesus.
    [Matthew 4 & Luke 4]

    The pastor said: “We can fight the devil with the word of God.” “That’s why it’s so important to read the Bible.” “We must know the Bible.” “We can conquer the devil with the word.” “Jesus was obedient to the word of God.”

    The pastor probably referred to “the word” about two dozen times in the sermon. And, conforming to Evangelical tradition, “the word” is automatically equated with “the 66 books of the Bible” taken together as one unified Book, without distinction in priority, authority level, or importance.

    But in truth, Satan didn’t tempt Jesus with “the word of God.” Satan tempted Jesus with “Scripture”- Psalm 91 to be exact. Yes, Psalm 91 is part of the Bible, yes it’s Scripture, but it isn’t the word of God, it isn’t the law or commandment or teaching of God, it isn’t the voice of God. It is just Scripture.

    Jesus didn’t respond with just “Scripture.” Jesus responded all 3 times with The Torah, the Law of Moses, specifically the Book of Deuteronomy. Jesus responded with the word of God, which takes priority over the parts of the Bible that are only “Scripture” such as the Psalms, Proverbs, Solomon’s writings, and the New Testament “letters” of Paul and others.

    The Word of God is the word of Jesus, backed up by the Torah and the Prophets. (Not the 66 books of the Bible.) Yes, the whole Bible is useful in various ways, but everything isn’t top priority. God ordains priorities. In the Garden of Eden, the Tree of Life first, and the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil second. (Not Eve’s words “the tree in the middle of the garden”.) The 10 commandments, in order, and Jesus’ summary of “The first and greatest commandment and the second.” (Not Paul’s words “one rule”.) The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Writings. (Not “the Tanakh” not “the Bible”, not the Old Testament or the New Testament as “One Book” with no order of priority.)

    Jesus is The Word of God, revealed in the books of the 4 Gospel writers Matthew Mark Luke & John, harmonizing with the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

  96. Matthew
    God is not limited as we are… HE sometimes has many different meanings for the same event… For instance the temptation of Jesus..
    When Satan said turn this stone into bread it applies to turning men backward into perdition and old covenant doctrines
    It also applies to the counterfeit of the real bread and cornerstone Jesus..This counterfeit is Mohammed…He is the corner stone of ISlam..Jeremiah 51-24, 25,26…Satan said to turn this stone into bread…In other words turn the corner stone Mohammed into bread like Jesus. And .insert Koran verse into Scriptures thereby making them appear as bread…

    Satan also convinces some Christians to cast themselves down as Sons of God and investigate Islam that has no sons of God including Son of God Jesus..Accepting Koran in lieu of the Gospel bruises the heel because the heel is made bare of the covering of the Gospel of Christ..

    Satan promises the world if you fall down and worship him as the God of Abraham…

    Looks like Satan is giving all he has in this battle..

    Those that accept old covenant cursed ordinances, etc go backward into perdition..and eventually into ISlam..
    These essentially have the same cursed beliefs as Islam…
    Islam is the gate of hell…. But Jesus, after it was revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD said the gates of hell (Islam) will not prevail against the rock knowledge that Jesus is Son of God……

  97. For Youth Group Leaders
    A creative group activity,
    Suitable for Jr. High and High School students 7th-12th grades
    Materials: One NIV Bible for each student. (Red letter edition would be easier and more visually appealing, but not strictly necessary.)

    The activity could be called “Learning to recognize the voice of Jesus.”
    The goal is for students to be able to articulate,
    ‘What did “The Law” mean to Jesus, in His own, words, in the 4 Gospels?’

    It might sound too hard at first, but really it isn’t. There are only a few dozen relevant verses, all contained in the Red Letters in the 4 Gospels. The word “law” appears 100 times in the Gospels. However, many of these are in the phrase “teachers of the law”, and that’s really a formal title, not Jesus speaking in his own words, so we can put those aside for the moment even if Jesus spoke them. We can also put aside for the moment the words of everyone else besides Jesus, and also when Jesus said “your law” or “their law” or “law” etc. we will put it aside for the moment, and focus exclusively on the one term, spoken by Jesus, “the law.”
    ‘What did “The Law” mean to Jesus, in His own, words, in the 4 Gospels?’

    You might want to break the students into 4 groups, one for each Gospel. Have them open their Bibles, read and discuss the words of Jesus, and then come together and present what they find.

  98. Matthew show us where any of the jews inherited eternal life during Moses lifetime..

    And then show us WHERE Moses gave the 10 cmmandments BEFORE the jews worshipped the golden calf…

    Do you think God is a moron??? Do you really think he rewarded the jews who turned their backs on him…????

    He knew they would all die and not go to the promised land until suseeding generations…

  99. Galatians 5-8..But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
    Galatians 5-14..For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    1 Timothy 1-9..Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    Hebrews 7-19..For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
    Hebrews 7, 8, 9..Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
    Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

  100. Matthew, is this why you hate and lie about Paul???

    Galatians 2-16..Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    Galatians 2-21. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    Galatians 3-10..For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    Galatians 3-11..But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Galatians 3-19..Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
    Galatians 3-19..

  101. To reasonable people who have ears to hear:
    I have stated a conclusion (my “Application”) about “What is the Bible.”

    Without repeating everything, this is based on my Observation and Interpretation of the words of Jesus in the New Testament. I believe we should try to see Scripture as Jesus did, and as Jesus would.

    I believe that Jesus did not see the Hebrew Scriptures as “one book” which was all equally authoritative and all “the word of God.” Jesus, like many Jews today, saw 3 sections in order of priority: The Law of Moses, The Prophets, and The Writings. And Jesus saw priority within the sections too, with Psalms as the most important part of The Writings.

    Before we address the Application for today, do you agree with this Observation and Interpretation about the words of Jesus? If not, can you tell me specifically why not?

  102. The great spiritual blindness – “All is one,” no order of priority.
    Examples through history:

    .1) Eve in the Garden of Eden – “the tree in the middle of the garden.”
    Wrong. There were 2 trees, not one, and the Tree of Life was first.

    ,2) Paul the Pharisee – “one rule”.
    Wrong. Jesus spoke of “the first and greatest commandment and the second,” and loving God was first.

    .3) Paul the Pharisee – “All Scripture is God-breathed.”
    Wrong. Jesus spoke of “the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms,” and the Psalms are the first book of “The Writings” which is “Scripture” but not “the law.”

    Satan and the Pharisees, including Paul the Pharisee, elevated “all Scripture” such as the Psalms or personal letters to be equal to “the Law.” But according to Jesus, “the law” means only the Law of Moses, nothing else.

    We see Jesus making this distinction when He spoke at the Last Supper.
    He said, “this is to fulfill the Scripture” and quoted Psalm 41:9. Yes, it’s “Scripture” but it isn’t “The Law.” [John 13:18]

    Later Jesus said, “this is to fulfill what is written in THEIR law,” and referred to Psalms 35:19 and 69:4. [John 15:25] Yes, it’s THEIR law, but it isn’t THE LAW. Because to Jesus in His own words, “The Law” is only the Law of Moses. No one in the world has produced a single verse of Scripture to refute this point.

    .4) Paul the Pharisee – “there is neither male nor female”
    Wrong. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” [Genesis 1:27]

    .5) Oneness Pentecostals – Jesus name only – Modalism
    They say that Father Son and Holy Spirit are really the same one person.
    Wrong. The Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons, yet One God.

    • please talk about something else.

    • Matthew,

      You said:

      “The Law” is only the Law of Moses. No one in the world has produced a single verse of Scripture to refute this point.

      You state the obvious and then make a sweeping statement that “No one in the world has produced a single verse of Scripture to refute this point.” That is a ridiculous comment. There is no doubt that the Church is off base with their rejection of the Torah and that this understanding came from Paul’s writings. The Church might reject that, but most Messianic believers in Yahshua wouldn’t. We of the Messianic community understand these things. The problem here is not about what you “think” Paul meant or what you “think” Messiah meant. You make the exact same mistake the Christian Church has made. They tend to deify what he (Paul) says while you demonize it. Both views are opposites of the same extreme and neither can see it. Both of you are wrong in this, for those who do these things (qualifying statement).

      Get understanding, learn to rightly divide the Word of Yah, and “lean not to your own understanding” and we won’t be having these discussions. Use the principals of interpretation of scripture that you have laid out for others to do, and most of this will right itself.

      • Al and Matthew…Jesus fulfilled the law…His death was payment for all sin…That is the fulfillment of the law….Jesus two love laws supercede ALL LAWS..This does not mean the 10 commandments are null and void…It means there is forgiveness not punishments and death for disobeying the 10 commandments.. Laws do not make men righeous… Righteous men have the rightouness of Christ..

        You guys need to learn more about love and then you may understand…
        When I say love I mean love like God has for warward sinful retarded mankind….Love that suffered and died for worthless mankind… That is true love…. The apostles including Paul the apostle also died for Jesus and mankind…Their testimonies are also sealed with their blood… How dare you speak as you do about Paul , Matthew..

      • Al

        I divide the Old Testament as Jesus did, in order of priority.

        I divide the New Testament as I think Jesus would
        4 Gospels
        Prophecy (Acts & Revelation)

    • Matthew, it is pretty clear which tree Eve was referring to…..Remember Jesus said man must live by EVERY WORD OF GOD…

      Genesis 2-17..But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

      Genesis 3-3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

      Matthew, Now show me what these trees actually represent and how they are part of end times scenario..
      A hint…One leads to life and the other leads to death about like the ministration of death the wicked evil Paul spoke of…..Bear in mind the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is/was Satan’s version of God’s wisdom… About like Hebrew rots versions of scripture.. Which lead not to life but to death…
      Don’t get me wrong I do not think Hebrew rots doctrines are original sin , …It is only part of it..

  103. Matthew, the more you talk the more you reveal yourself as having no understanding….
    For instance Paul said there is neither Greek nor Jew, free nor bond, male nor female in the body of Christ….This verse has noting to do with gender, liberty , etc…It simply means there is no prejudiced in Christ Jesus…All are of equal status…

    As for the law it is the punishments that cause it to be called the ministration of death…No one is able to keep all the laws all of the time…..But if we love god and man and self properly we are able.. Something you do not understand apparently..

    As for ONENESS PENTACOSTALS…The Bible says these three are ONE, not three..As for God being three PERSONS, that is moronic..God is not a person..God is a spirit…The holy Ghost is not a person…He is that part of God’s sprit that indwells God’s children… Jesus become a person…Jesus was the God of the beginning, He was the God of Genesis 1-1…

    Peter who was a chosen apostle knew Jesus personally and Peter knew when Jesus said to baptize in the name of the father, of the father, son and holy ghost.. Peter did exactly that…He baptized in the NAME OF JESUS Acts 2-38…He knew Jesus was father, son and holy ghost.. And God’s children also know this truth..

    You need to let go of the hate and lies and keep your mind open to find the real truths..

  104. Matthew, your last comment was spoken like a rue pharisee..

  105. About 20 years ago, conversations were taking place at the highest levels. Many professing Christians were involved, and here is an example of the kind of Satanic deception and persuasion that was used.

    The voice of Satan:
    “There is too much hate, too much strife, and we shouldn’t impose our own beliefs on everyone else. All we need is love, right? Didn’t your Apostle Paul say “love your neighbor as yourself’” is the Greatest Commandment? We need to respect each other’s opinions and celebrate diversity. We need to get along. What’s the big deal? You don’t have to accept it, endorse it, promote it, encourage it, or say, “it’s right.” If you believe it’s wrong, you can continue to believe what you want to believe, and live as you want to live. Don’t judge, or you too will be judged- didn’t Jesus say that? Just don’t say “it’s wrong,” and lets agree not to talk about it. Don’t Ask Don’t Tell…”

    That was 20 years ago, and today in California….

    Can you see the false theological underpinning?
    Satan was quoting Paul accurately- but Paul was wrong. Paul’s letters are Scripture, but they are NOT the word of God, the commandments of God, the voice of God, The Torah, or the testimony of Jesus.

    According to Jesus, the first and greatest commandment is to Love God. Loving your neighbor is second, after God. Paul promoted himself relentlessly as an “Apostle” to gain more influence, but in truth Jesus and the Original appointed Apostles never recognized Paul in any way shape or form as an apostle. There are only 12 Apostles and Matthias was qualified, specifically appointed, and later recognized as the 12th Apostle.

    • Paul did not endorse sin, and do what you please….

      if you continue to put words in people’s mouth, including Paul, I will have impose some restrictions…. this is a christian website, not a place to spread false accusations and theories.

      • Paul wrote:
        “Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!”
        [2 Corinthians 12:16]
        Why do you think Paul wrote this, and what do you think Paul meant by it? It’s an honest question.

        • Paul is citing a charge made against him, and spends the entire chapter showing that he did not trick ( exploit them in any way).

          Look at the next verses:

          17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you?
          18 I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?

          In fact he goes to great lengths to show he, as well as TItus, has never made any gain out of ministering to them.

          • I agree that Paul is citing a charge made against him. And Paul does use a lot of ink, in this chapter and others, defending his behavior and justifying himself. Here he is CLAIMING he did not trick or exploit them.

            Regarding another charge that was made against him, Paul responded:
            “Am I not an Apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. This is my defense to those who sit in judgment of me…” [1 Corinthians 9:1-3]

            There is more New Testament text written specifically to – and about – the Church in Corinth than another church, even more than Jerusalem. In all, 29 chapters, and also Luke’s account of the church’s founding in Acts. We have more specific details about Corinth than any other church. It was anything but a model of maturity and a good example to follow. It was infamous for being extremely unhealthy, with deep serious long-term problems. This is a failure of leadership.

            So let’s ask ourselves, when Paul wrote his two letters to the church in Corinth, who was in charge of the church?

            Rather than
            .1) drawing a blank and saying “what?”
            .2) saying “we don’t know enough.”
            .3) shifting the blame and saying “no one was qualified”
            .4) denying responsibility and saying “it doesn’t matter”

            Why don’t we go face to face with the text of Acts and Paul’s two letters. Authority and Rights are paired with Obligations and Responsibility in healthy churches. For example, as Paul wrote to others, “an overseer must be hospitable.”

            • Paul was dealing with a lot of flesh, strife, and unbelief, similar to what you seem to express.

              • Maybe you’re right Marianne.
                A few minutes ago on your “recent visits” list , I noticed some of my neighbors- 2 from Huntington Beach and 1 from Riverside. Hi neighbors! The LORD bless you and keep you…
                By the way, who did we say was in charge of the church in Corinth?

      • Marianne,
        I don’t know what you mean about putting words in Paul’s mouth. Here is a post from a couple of months ago, where I quoted Jesus speaking about “the first and greatest command and the second”.

        Then in comparison I quoted Paul contradicting Jesus, writing that it’s only one commandment, to love people, ignoring the first most important commandment to love God. It’s the same point I’m making here. I remember you agreed with this point earlier.

  106. Matthew, God does not want carbon copies of anyone..He wants you to be yourself…A copy is not the real deal..The real deal is the indwelling of Holy Ghost and you…The spirit of truth helps you to understand your intermost self and to be yourself..Copies fringe on being hypocrites.. God loves us just as we are and He alone knows how to fix the broken parts..

    Jesus came as example for us to follow but that does not mean to be a carbon copy of Him… He loves you for yourself..

    You are carving our niche in hell…

    Jesus said to Ananias…concerning Paul..
    Acts 9-15..But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
    Jesus said….
    Matthew 10-40…He that receiveth you (Paul) receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    John 13-20…Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth (Paul) whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me….

    You Matthew are rejecting Jesus when you reject WHOMSOEVER He sends..

  108. Did God chose Moses to lead the Israelites out of Egypt because Moses was familiar with all the doctrines and cults of Egypt…Moses knew all the pitfalls of pagan worship before God showed him the real truths…Therefore was very qualified to deliver the Israelites from bondage..

    Did God chose Paul because he was a pharisee and familiar with all the doctrines of the Jewish (pharisees) religion and after God showed Him the real truth he knew all the pitfalls of the pharisees doctrines..and is qualified to deliver Christian and Jews from cults like Hebrew rots cult even today..???
    Is God now working in reverse to reveal truth… Some Christians who are familiar with the Bible are now confronted with lies from Hebrew Rots worldwide movement … These Christians are very qualified to expose this lie from hell..Alas some Christians have dashed their foot against the doctrines of the stone commandments..

    The Hebrew rots movement believe Jesus was a messiah but only a man, not God in flesh… A sure sign this movement is part of the antichrist movement..1 John 2-22, 23

    Both Islam and Hebrew rots movement deny Jesus was Son of God and both teach old covenant laws and punishments of Moses……Are both of these cults synagogue of Satan that say they are Jews but are liars…I think so…

    I think this Hebrew rots movement stems to the Israelites who fell down to the golden calf, aka Allah, aka sin the moon god, aka Satan..The laws and punishments were given to these fallen Israelites after they turned away from God and turned to Satan..I guess this is being repeated today.. AND many are being written out of God’s book of life because they chose the ministration of death..aka Hebrew rots movement.

  109. Paul said: “I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee.” [Acts 23:6]

    Paul wrote: “Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.” [1 Corinthians 4:15-16]

    Jesus frequent spoke against the Pharisees and their teachings, including the entire chapter of Matthew 23. Jesus commanded us specifically about the Pharisees and the teacher of the law:
    “Do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” [verse 3] and
    “You are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father and he is in heaven.” [verses 8-9]

    How long with the same old song and dance continue – singing the Rapture of Boss Paul the Pharisee, and dancing the Evangelical Mexican Hat Dance?

    Let the music play!
    “But you have to understand what Paul was really saying here. He said ‘I am a Pharisee’ but he didn’t really mean what he said. What Paul really meant was…..” around and around and around it goes, when it stops, nobody knows.


  110. Why hasn’t anyone got the connection between the pharisees being called serpents, children of satan amd original sin…Not to mention twice dead..
    Hebrew roots deception is the surely the deception as Eves. of at best, part of it….This is why Jesus called these men serpents..

    Matthew 10-20..Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    Matthew 23-33..Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    Matthew 23-2..Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
    Matthew 23-15..Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    John 8-44..Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Revelation 9-19..For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.


    Hebrew rots is same as pharisees doctrines of the law and punishments..

  111. 2 Corinthians 3-6, 7..Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. V.7..But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

    When I think ministration of death I think original sin that brought death and sickness…..
    It is possible that original sin was akin to the ministration of death whereby Satan taught his version of God’s wisdom….
    The 10 commandments were both a curse and a blessing….They were a blessing if you kept every one all the time including all the accompanying ordinances…They were a curse if you broke even one of them…
    It is my thought since the serpent convinced the Adams they would be as gods that they must punish themselves either consciously and/or sub consciously if they broke god’s laws… Hence the curse..So they unknowingly used illness and death as punishment…
    When Jesus healed a woman He said ” your sins are forgiven you.”..This
    Certainly appears that it was the woman’s sins who made her sick.. Jesus also after healing a person said “go and sin no more”..This also implies the sickness was caused by what the woman deemed as sin..

    Jesus paid the penalty for sin so we would not have to pay it… And by His stripes we are healed…

    Islam also teaches this ministration of death…They however do not rely on the person’s conscious or subconscious mind to bring the penalty…They kill blasphemers, stone adulteress, cut off hands and feet. As did the pharisees..

    Hebrew rots leads to the old covenant which led to death…

  112. Paul placed great importance on the necessary qualities for the leader of a local church. In his travelling ministry of teaching and evangelism, he had two young helpers, and he wrote letters to both of them, providing similar lists about what an “overseer” or “elder” must be. (Being hospitable is prominent in both Paul’s lists.)
    [1 Timothy 3:1-7] and [Titus 1:5-14]

    So here is an idea for a “case study” in a Bible study group discussion.
    Read these texts in the following order:

    .1) Luke’s narrative of Acts 18:1 through 22:21,

    .2) Paul’s lists of qualifications [1 Timothy 3:1-7] and [Titus 1:5-14]

    .3) Then, with the goal of personally identifying the man who was in charge of the church in Corinth and evaluating him in light of Paul’s qualifications, read Paul’s two letters to the Corinthians.

  113. […] across something i don’t understand, I merely research it until I understand it. There is no excuse for not understanding God’s […]

  114. […] across something i don’t understand, I merely research it until I understand it. There is no excuse for not understanding God’s […]

  115. Hi, well written article. I also wrote a blog about the Ten Virgin parable and what it means recently. You can read it here: http://brandonjchai.com/index/ten-virgins-parable/

  116. There is indeed much willful ignorance. The Word is known of,but not known; or the Word is twisted to say that which it does not; or mocked and scoffed by those of insufficient wit.
    As is our duty,we must sow the seed. But the hearts of so many are hard and stony places.

  117. I’m confused by this:

    “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

    who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.”

    Impossible? Are you saying those who wander away from God cannot be saved? That’s hard for me to believe.

    Please explain.

    • cathy

      these are not my words, they are scripture

      Hebrews 6: 4–6

      4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,

      who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

      To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

      I think what the author means is they have rejected god, and refuse to repent, so therefore , neither witnessing nor persuasion works on them

      maybe if we think of satan who had been enlightened, and had all he wanted in heaven, then rejected it all, we can imagine this better….

  118. So we shouldn’t even try to bring a loved one back to Christ? This doesn’t feel right to me.

    • cathy

      yes we should always pray….i do not know the complete intent behind this passage…

      it may be with intercession, that decrees like this can be reversed….

  119. […] https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/ignorance-is-no-excuse/ […]

  120. […] across something i don’t understand, I merely research it until I understand it. There is no excuse for not understanding God’s […]

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