Is the Trinity Equal?

trinty-b

Tradition says that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal. How do the scriptures contradict or support this concept? Is this the best term for the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

The Bible mentions the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Here, I will just address the Father and the Son, and leave the Holy Spirit for a separate discussion.

How many Words are there?

Usually the equality of Jesus with the Father is based on the following verse:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Here, tradition has identified the “Word” exclusively as Jesus Himself. This is fine that Jesus is the Word, because He is.

But, isn’t the Father the author of the Word, who then transfers this Word to His Son? If so, then He is also the Word, since he is the origin of the Word. See the following:

Jhn 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (Jesus gets his words from the father)

Since I am always looking at more than one interpretation, is the following interpretation also possible? I see 2 “Words” here. (I will explain why this analysis is important later):

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (#1-Father), and the Word (#2 – Jesus) was with God (#1-Father), and the Word (#1-Father) was God.

Jhn 1:2 The same (#2 – Jesus) was in the beginning with God (#1-Father).


Jhn 1:3 All things were made through (by means of) him (#2 – Jesus); and without him was not any thing made, that was made


Jhn 1:14 And the Word (#2 – Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory (#2 – Jesus), the glory as of the only begotten of the Father (Word #1-Father) , full of grace and truth.

Jhn 1:18 No man hath seen God (Word #1-Father) at any time; [except] the only begotten Son (#2 – Jesus) , which is in the bosom of the Father (Word #1-Father), he (#2 – Jesus) hath declared [him].

bible


Consider the following verses from the gospels:

Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

*** if the Father is greater than Jesus, then they are not equal.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knows no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

*** Father knows things that Jesus doesn’t

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

*** he did not originally have the kingdom, if it had to be given to him

Consider the following verses from the Epistles:

1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Tts 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour

Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.


*** Jesus was “made?”

Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Observation from above scriptures:

What I think is interesting in all these verses, is that just the Father is called God, and Jesus Christ is called Lord. Only the Father is called “God.” Jesus is called the Son of the Father, but not God. Not one time is Jesus called God.

math2a

Back to the “Word” issue

Recall the discussion over this passage:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

If there are 2 Words, the Father, origin of the Word, and the Son, deliverer of the Word, then, where it says

The Word was God……

It may mean the Word (Father) was God……

And not

the Word (Jesus) was God…….

If so, this would mean there is only One God, who is the Father. Jesus, as the Son, is divine, by son-ship, but is not officially “God,” a title reserved for the Father.

Finally, the words of Jesus Himself, as the prays in the garden, before His death:

Jhn 17:1 These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

So,

Where Jesus said, “my Father is greater than I,” indicates that the Father is greater, because He (the Father) IS the God of Jesus.   Jesus says Himself, in the passage above, that the Father is the only true God.  And that he is only “sent.”  Jesus is Lord, but not God Himself. This interpretation would preserve the Oneness of God, without denying the divinity of Jesus, the Son.

What do you think?

See also:


Which Word is Which? Click here for more


Are You In, Permeated, and One with God? Click here for more


Jesus and His relationship with the Father Click here for more


Jesus as the Son of God Click here for more


Jesus before and after Earth Click here for more


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109 Responses to “Is the Trinity Equal?”

  1. these verses all

    written by different people

    using the same words

    but meaning

    different

    things

    this is
    met-a-phor
    and-no-more

    god talk is evidently nonsense

    • There is no trinity. There is “one God, the Father and one lord Jesus Christ. See 1 Cor. 15:28. “And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him that God may be all in all.” The trinity makes a mockery out of the crucifixion of Christ since God cannot die.

      • i agree

      • Thor, you have to see what the word ‘Lord’ means. The word trinity doesn’t exist in the scriptures, I know. Though, the scriptures is clear about that the Father is God, Christ is God (remember what this guy in the Gospel said: My Lord and my God) and the Holy Spirit is God. The scriptures testify that there is only one God. So, since the scriptures are not ours to interpret then it’s the Holy Spirit that is going to teach us all things. We have to put the scriptures together and not look at a few scriptures here and there. It’s more to it when it comes to the interpretation of the scriptures, but let’s not go into this now. My advice to you is pray to the God of the Bible and ask Him to reveal His Son, the true God and the eternal life (1.John chapter 5).

  2. There seem to be difference though, because why would blasphemies against the Father and the Son be forgiven and against the Holy Spirit not?

    Zarathustra, you are a perfect example of what Paul calls a natural man:
    1 Corinthians 2:14 14 ¶ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    Concerning your arguments against creation you may want to visit
    http://ianjuby.org/videos.html
    if you have not done it already.

  3. that ian juby- is cringeworthy. he talks to children like they a mindless and adults like they are children. if this is your idea of an “expert”…

    he is clueless.

  4. Actually it is so simple that even children can understand it.
    Your disdain for that only shows that you simply do not want to consider the incorrectness of evolution.
    God catches the wise by their wisdom.
    The “scientists” are proud of their “knowledge” and yet so ignorant.

  5. haha! he is a terrible speaker with terrible jokes, an unconcvincing and smarmy ‘personal touch’, and very little real knowledge of what he is trying to explain.

    it’s pretty simple, evolution is an observable fact in the present. it is the mechanics of how we came to be. it does not attempt to provide any answers as to why we’re here, just describes at least part of how we came to be here.

    it is fair enough to try and claim that god caused evolution to happen. to claim that it doesn’t happen at all is like denying gravity.

    • z

      there is no evidence for evolution….scientists do not care about this…..it is not an issue for them, because there is no funding for it……the only ones passionate about this issue are non-scientists like yourself…..

      evolution will never be able to explain where all its starting materials came from, with any rationality.

  6. The Word was not originaly Jesus, but became Jesus.
    Jesus was not eternal, as He was born in 2BC.
    He is now Eternal, as He alone was raised from death by His Father.
    But the Son of God,(Who is Spirit), who dwelt in Him was eternal, and it says that the Word became Flesh(Jesus) and dwelt among us.
    When one reads the Gospel of John in particular, these things are made very clear.
    The one who looked out from behind the eyes of Jesus said,”Before Abraham was , I Am.
    The Son of God became a man in history,(ie Spirit became clothed in Flesh)
    The Son of God came back to His Father different, than when He left Him.He returned to His Father as flesh and bone, to represent us before His Fathers Throne and intercede for us, on our behalf.He lives forever!!

    • you said ‘He returned to His Father as flesh and bone’.

      Where did get this wrong picture? Read Lk 24:39 – He said it’s not ‘flesh and bones’ but ‘spirit’.

      When Apostles’ Creed say- ‘believe the resurrection of the body’, it’s not resurrection into a body of ‘flesh and bone’, but into the body of spirit to put on imperishability and immortality (1Co 15:53).

      Ounbbl

  7. The trinity is equal as to personal substance. That is, each individual person, the Father, the Word,(who became flesh) and the Holy Spirit, are equally Diety. The Father,(the ancient of days) is Greater in Position, than Jesus.
    The Holy Spirit ‘proceeds’ from both the Father and the Son.
    Jn.1:1 declares that the Word was in the “beginning” with God,(diety) and the Word was God.(Diety) This passage only makes sense if two separate individuals are spoken of.
    It is only when the Word became flesh,(about 2000 years ago) that the relationship of ‘Sonship’ was established between God and Christ.
    Ps. 2:7 declares, “Thou art my Son, this DAY have I begotten thee”
    That is why the KJV correctly asserts in Jn.1:18, that Jesus was “begotten Son” (Gr. mono genes) NOT “begotten God”, as in the ASV and most modern false Bibles. If Christ was “begotten God” then he is Not diety, as no ‘created being’, can be God.
    This falsehood is what is implied in the modern fraudulent texts, which makes Christ equal to Lucifer, who is a created being. Christ, as “the Word” that existed in the beginning, was not “eternally begotten Son”.
    He became the “only begotten Son”, when he became “in flesh appearing”. Hope this settles it.

    Morgan Sorensen

  8. Thomas the apostle calls Jesus, “My Lord and My God”, at him and proclaims Him as the risen Lord. Lord and God both had similiar meanings in hebrew only God is Lord. The verses written mainly to distinguish between God the Father, Everlasting Spirit and God the Son the incarnate flesh. Reducing JEsus’s status would be an error. Jesus is God in flesh. Jesus says Before Abraham was, I AM. He also says I and my father are ONE, who has seen me as also seen the Father. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Co-equal and Co-existant in harmony. Triune nature of one God.

  9. hi! i forget where i read it, but there is a way to say that the Father and Son have “ontological equality” but “economic hierarchy,” meaning that in their roles, the Son is subservient to the Father. (Note in scripture Jesus always said, that He does His father’s will, not His own, and that everything He speaks is from His father.)

    regarding hebrews 1:4; Jesus was “made”, the word made here is greek “ginomai” meaning “to cause to be”. surely we must say (scripturally) that Jesus was “begotten”, and the Holy Spirit “proceeds”.

    i’m forever thinking on this subject.

    i like the earthly analogy of marriage… “the two become one flesh”. so they are one, yet there are still two persons. of course the Father, Son, Holy Spirit have a PERFECT union, unlike the earthly marriage.

    thank you GYOD for pointing out the foolishness of man’s wisdom; in pride, he counts himself wise.

    zathura (sp?), don’t even get us started on evolution. it is the most idiotic thing to believe in. i try to explain it to my 6 and 8-yr-olds and they LAUGH and LAUGH and LAUGH!! you try it sometime.

    and forget it, we’re not going to “claim that God caused evolution to happen,” coz GOD’S WORD says that GOD SAID let there be man. God speaks things into existence– and out.

    watch the “expelled” documentary to see how scientists have betrayed the very principles of science in an attempt to thwart God… it’s all rebellion against God. that is man’s nature, and it sure is obvious.

    Glenn: during creation God says let “us” do such-and-such. if the other is not Jesus, then who??? (Jesus, as per Morgan’s comments.) Your statements are confusing in light of scripture.

    i enjoy Jesus’ statement, “i am in the Father, and the Father is in me.” figure that one out!? if the Father is entirely contained inside Jesus, what does that mean!?

    GOd bless,
    Paul

  10. I have a question here. If one says that Christ is indwelling one, what is he saying?
    Is he saying that the historical figure of Jesus Christ dwells in him?
    Ponder this carefully before answering.

    • Hi Abigail,

      hmmm quiz question….Jesus is now the resurrected king….no longer flesh and bones, like us, but with a glorified body, similar to ours, but glorified. It is the Holy Spirit that is within us at this time. Jesus is in heaven.

  11. Marianne,
    Yet the scriptures clearly speaks as Christ in us and us in Him. What does that mean?
    You say that Jesus is in heaven …. Is he then an unknown, since we are not yet in heaven?

  12. Hi Marianne,

    God forbid that His word be unknown. Jesus is The Word of God , even in your mouth.
    For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
    This is He who came by water and blood – Jesus Christ: not only by water, but by water and blood,
    And it is The Spirit who bears witness, BECAUSE the Spirit is TRUTH.
    For there are three that bear witness in Heaven:
    The Father,
    The Word
    and the Holy Spirit.
    and these three are ONE.
    And there are three that bear witness on earth
    The Spirit
    The Water
    and the Blood
    and these three agree as one.
    Amen!

  13. Abigail,

    The scripture clearly indicates that Jesus has ascended into heaven, and that He is the firstborn among men. No man has EVER ascended to heaven, but our Lord Jesus.

    As for unknown– yes, Jesus is known to us through the Spirit, as Marianne said– but we HAVE NOT seen Him in all His majesty, as per the Transfiguration experience of the 3 apostles, whose witness we have. This we may look forward to upon His second coming!

    Also, Abigail, please note your frequent (and scripture-based) use of the number 3. You can’t deny the word 1, but it is equally false to deny that they are THREE.

    Paul

  14. Paul ,

    May I point out to you that God never said ‘Let there be man.’
    Now it is true that the Power of the Word of God creates.
    And that His word never returns to Him void.
    Meaning that His Word always accomplishes what He sets it forth for.
    He is God.
    Now for your last post I don’t understand what you are trying to say.
    But I do understand that when you shall see Him you will be like Him.

  15. well if Jesus is not God, so why he accepted to be adored? You must explain it or I will understand that you are supposing to exist 2 Gods. A Superior one and an inferior. explain me!

    • dear naconeski

      There is only one God, who is the Father in heaven. Jesus is the son of God. Because he is the son, he is also divine, and worthy of worship, according to the will of the Father.

  16. Ok, you say Jesus is not God, so…
    I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. – ISAIAH 42:8

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; – EXODUS 20:4-5

    Nor the angels accepted to be adored. Why Jesus accepted then? Jesus said to Satan that only God shall be adored
    Matthew 4:10

    10Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.
    So Why we worship Jesus and serve him?

    • HI Naconeski

      Just obey what Jesus said.

      It also is the will of the Father that Jesus be loved and accepted as our redeemer.

      Jesus said the Father was greater than he was. ..something to think about. Why would he say that if he is equal to his Father?

      Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

      blessings
      marianne

  17. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    1st. Note how Jesus always cast out demons, cured the sick, and did miracles in His own name. Also, on several occasions Jesus deliberately said; “I AM”. This would never have been taken lightly by any Jew of Jesus’ time.

    John 8:58 is another example. Jesus declared, “I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. ” Again, in response, the Jews take up stones in an attempt to stone Jesus (John 8:59). Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He hadn’t said something they believed to be blasphemous, namely, a claim to be God? John repeatedly tells us of the Lord’s connection to “I Am”. See John: 4:26, 8:24, 8:28, 8:58,and 13:19. The Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus “..is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” (Colossians 1:15-17)

    “He was baptized as a man — but He remitted sins as God…He was tempted as man, but he conquered as God…He hungered — but He fed thousands…He was wearied, but He is the rest of them that are weary and heavy-laden. He was heavy with sleep, but He walked lightly over the sea…He pays tribute, but it is out of a fish; yea He is the king of those who demanded it…He prays, but he hears prayer. He weeps, but He causes tears to cease. He asks where Lazarus was laid, for He was man; but He raises Lazarus, for He was God. He is sold, and very cheap, for it is only for thirty pieces of silver; but He redeems the world, and that at a great price, for the price was His blood. As a sheep he is led to the slaughter, but He is the shepherd of Israel, and now of the whole world also…He is bruised and wounded, but He heals every disease and every infirmity. He is lifted up and nailed to the tree, but by the tree of life He restores us. He dies, but he gives life, and by His death He destroys death.”
    Another time I say to you that God do not transfere his glory to another one. This have to be clear.
    trinity is easy to explain as the water. Ice,water, vapor.The three elements are one, with the same nature, quantity and formula . But they act in diferent forms and purpose, but to the same end.

  18. Shalom Marianne,

    I am not aggree with your opinion, because after I learn about the Bible, I foun that JAHUSHUA (Son), YAHWEH (Father) and Holy Spirit are equal. (3 in 1)

    Heb 1:8 ButG1161 untoG4314 theG3588 SonG5207 he saith, ThyG4675 throne,G2362 O God,G2316 is for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 a sceptreG4464 of righteousnessG2118 is theG3588 sceptreG4464 of thyG4675 kingdom.G932
    Heb 1:9 Thou hast lovedG25 righteousness,G1343 andG2532 hatedG3404 iniquity;G458 thereforeG1223 G5124 God,G2316 even thyG4675 God,G2316 hath anointedG5548 theeG4571 with the oilG1637 of gladnessG20 aboveG3844 thyG4675 fellows.G3353

    Note, the numbers are from strong concordance.

    When YAHUSHUA said Father is bigger than Him, was because at that time (on this earth), YAHUSHUA only a human (100 %) and He left His godly in Heaven.

    I wrote an article about “Who is YAHUSHUA”, but in my language (Indonesia), I hope I am able to translate ini English so I am able to share this with you.

    GBU Marianne.

    from David

  19. God has sent many people here to correct your error regarding the fact that Jesus is God and the reality of the trinity.

    My question to you is why are you so stubborn and refusing to believe the truth as set out in the scriptures?

    Christ humbled himself, why can’t you?

    • Dear Contender,

      This has nothing to do with humility. This is about references Jesus made that indicated that the Father was the “greater” one in what is called the trinity. This means, within the relationship of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that there is not an equality of persons. The Father is greater. So there is inequality.

      Disagreement with me is ok. I am just trying to make people think.

      • good thought process on this one, but i would say this has everything to do with God being a God of order and not of confusion and caos. in 1 corithians 11:3 and also colossians 3:18 we see that God has order to everything. Christ is the head of each man, man the head of the woman, and the head of Christ is God(Father). i would disagree that there is inequality in the Trinity b/c it is just one God not 3 gods, but three person with 3 equally important roles, and if one of the person’s roles where left out, there would be no true salavation. just b/c scriptures say my wife is subordinate to me, does not mean i am superior to her. God has put all things in clear order so that things may be all followed up with precision and perfection on earth like it is in heaven and the Trinity. i’ll go one better than that, Psalms 138(KJV) says God honors his WORD above all thy name. all the names of God including Father, Jesus, Son, Lamb, Jehovah, Yaweh, etc–the words that come from his very mouth are more important than all his names. that would make since since the only physical form of God we can see and verify as far as evidence is in the form of 66 books–where it says it is impossible for God to lie in Titus 1:2. just my thoughts

  20. It has everything to do with humility. Remember the Word became flesh? Remember Immanuel meaning God with us?

    Philippians 2:5-11 NIV
    Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7but made himself nothing,
    taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
    8And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    and became obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!
    9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father.

  21. Before The Son died:
    G ( F=S=HS )
    = G ( 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 )
    After the Son died:
    G ( 1/3 + (1/3+x) + 1/3 )

    = G=1+x

    CONCLUSION : GOD IS GREATER THAN HIMSELF according to
    the doctrine of the trinity.

  22. Hi Marianne,

    Sorry, should read: (1/3)+x : could not risk typing according to
    notational rules. I’ll try it now and see what happens.

    1
    – + x
    3

    Whatever, if S >1 then G >1 resulting in inequality within the
    Godhead !!

    Just a novel way to show that you cannot have change of
    rank/status/value within the Godhead if the trinitarian
    criteria is to be upheld.

    Another way of expressing it is: If Jesus is mow greater than he
    once was (Heb 1:3,7:26) then he must be greater than his equality
    with the Father and Holy Spirit which of course negates the
    trinitarian criteria for equality within the Godhead.

    • i agree with this statement. good thought process here. I also know that some scriptures in the new testement refer to Jesuss’ humanity while others refer to his divinity.

  23. Sorry, Jesus should read: Son

  24. Another correction would you believe–I’m very tired you know !

    x = The degree of the Son’s change of status

    if S >1 should read: if S >1/3

    I think I had better leave this to the scientist!
    Marianne, it’s all yours !!

  25. I was trying to distinguish between essence and title.

    Father, Son both = God
    Father , Son both = Word

    But Father carries the title of God
    Son carries the title of Word.

    does that make sense?

  26. Well if we want to understand the trinity we could do worse than look at our selves. We are after all fashioned in God’s exact image. I find the following a helpful anaology __ it helps me to understand the trinity, by looking at it this way: I don’t think of The Father and the Son as “two” words; but rather as the same word_ in the same way that a thought and a word are the same word __ except one is hiddena and the other revealed. And Christ ( The Word ) is the manifestation (or revelation) of the mind of God ( The unseen Word __ here read “thoughts” ). And what we, as likenesses of the living God, can undestand from our human perspective, is this: Some thoughts are always hidden. Others, by a process of our own choosing; careful deliberation, at the discretion of our own mind, are purposely brought tangibly into the realm of the physical by the transference of the newly conceived thought ( that marvelous, creative invisible impulse) by means of an electrical impulse to the physical brain to be released to the observer by the vocal chords. And it is only by this creation/transferences from the amorphpous to the manifest that the chosen thought is revealed at the discretion of the “whole” person: the tongue cannot speak what the mind has not yet fashioned :the PHYSICAL mind ie, the grey matter, cannot know (or precede) the invisible creation/concept/thought/idea processes until the electrical impulses that compose them, transfer that knowledge into action via the grey matter (and in that sense, the unseen mind/person that is me for instance, will always “beget” the manifestation of my own words; their manifetstaion into the physciacl realm where everything about me, previosuly hidden, is now readily observable to the world outside me. In this sense, the mind/ thought process is the father or superior to the grey matter/converter; the invisible mind/spirit, the father/creator of the physical_ word/body/actions. But again, from the human perspective: inside, I am me; insular, private,complex, unknowable (except to God). Does this mean my physical “me” is less “me” than my wonderful, complex mind? Less “me” than my tender feeling spirit? Maybe. I’m not sure. But it has to be a pretty important me whicever way I look at it: I am after all, the vessel for the spirit God made me. The vessel He intended for me to show the world who I am. My physiacl body is a mirror that reflects not inward to myself, but outward, to the observer, that to which he would not otherwise be privvy. And I believe our design is a reminder to ourselves of what the Godhead is. That is why, the Bible says “No-one has seen the Father _ but Jesus who is in the bosom of the Father __ He has made Him known” (At least, I think that’s how that scripture goes); it is also the reason Jesus himself says: “He who has seen me has seen the Father” __ because all that the Father is, in Spirit, is revelaed to us in the Person of Christ__ just as all that WE are is revealed to those outside our mind, by our manifest selves. Think about it: A word is a thought revealed; a thought is a word concealed _ or, The Father, is in the Son revealed; the Son is in the Father concealed ( “in” as it were, the bosom of the Father) ( I think that’s how that saying went too. Don’t rmemeber where I heard that, but it’s a fair analogy. So, the conception of a thought or idea, will always be the forerunner to the revealed Word; the spirit will alwsy beget the flesh. The body will always act after the will of the mind. I don’t mean it to sound so clinical. I’m just trying to illustrate my point. A word is a word, so is a thought __ but they are the same word__ one hidden __ one manifest.

  27. We know that Jesus is God but it is interesting that he is never called God himself. however we must remember that Jesus referred to himself as the exact same God that spoke to Moses in the burning bush. when Jesus said to the pharisees, “Before Abraham was, I AM. I they were ready to stone him for blaspheming God to claim equality. also we know that when it refers to God or Angel of the LORD–it is referring to a Theophany or pre-appearance of the 2nd part of the trinity(Jesus).

  28. I agree with Marianne. The scripture supports that Jesus Christ is the Son of God but not God the Son. This is a lengthy topic which would require much time to discuss, One principle in Biblical research is that unclear verses must be understood in light of clear verses. Marianne shared several clear verses which support that Jesus is not God. There are many more. One very clear verse is 1 Timothy 2:1. “For there is one God and one mediator betweeen God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” Unclear verses must be understood in light of clear verses. John 8:58, referred to by j.d. is an example of an unclear verse. One must note in verse 54 he told the Pharisees that his Father is their God. He never said that he was their God. What Jesus is communicating in verse 58 is that he is the Messiah, who was foreknown (and prophesied about) before Abraham.

  29. with all do respect, my friend–i call that scripture torture and blasphemy. John 1: Colossians 1:1-30–the term Theophany clearly explains Jesus as the God-man-he never had a beginning and never will have an end as Alpha and Omega. Unfortunately when you hold up some private interpretation of scriptures, it can cause people to be decieved. the Pharisees knew what Jesus was claiming–that why they wanted HIM dead! of couse he claimed to be the Messiah, but he also claimed he was the same one in the Old testement talking to Moses in the burning bush. research it. not only that, if Jesus wasn’t God, then why was he accepting worship from the little children? if you noticed Jesus never turned down worship. so it is unfortunate that we come to this conclusion about such an important topic, b/c if you say Jesus is not God, then you are not referring to the jesus of the Bible–no matter how many scriptures you try and quote. this type of discussion needs to be held in an open forum in a gym somewhere b/c if i just unloded all the scriptures that point to him as being GOD, besides the ones i’ve already sited-i would surely be writng til 6am.

    • jd

      a little point here. God the Father was the fire in the burning bush. His face cannot be seen by man. The Angel of the Lord, (ie Jesus) was there at the burning bush as well. He was the visual part of the experience for Moses.

      When Jesus said before Abraham was, I AM, he was referring to his heavenly existence as angel of the Lord in heaven before creation. All heavenly beings existed before Abraham. Noah, Adam etc also existed before Abraham, so “existing before Abraham” in itself does not make one God. You would need other scriptures to back that up.

      Alpha and Omega means beginning and the end. God has no beginning and no end. Something to think about…..

      • this will be my last response to you regarding this topic at heaven waits b/c most notable scholars and teachers agree to never separate and divide over non-essentials of the faith like “camel going through the eye of an needle, predestination, should we eat pork?, etc” but this subject is clearly an important Essential of the faith(Was Jesus born of a virgin? did Jesus really exist and die?,and WAS JESUS GOD?, etc.) reputable teachers always say if one is a Christian, they must be immovable on these types of subjects and separate over them if the basic tenants of the faith are being denied.

        i really do appreciate your thoughts, but unfortunately with all do respect-you couldn’t have missed the point about Jesus and who he actually was any further. again this is scripture torture and heretical in its worse form. people who claim to be Christians but deny Jesus the divinity that is clearly expressed through out scriptures have no real business calling themselves such. again, this is an ESSENTIAL CANONIZED doctrine of the Christian faith you are try to put doubt in peoples mind. if you read what Jjesus was saying in the context about I AM, any person with basic hermeneutics can understand what Jesus is saying here. he is clearly claiming to be the Great I AM of the burning bush, not only that, but the pharisees thought so. have you ever realized how they reacted to his statement? they wanted to kill him–b/c of his supposed blasphemies, but not just for that but for accepting WORSHIP(in Revelation the angel clearly says don’t worship me, worship God! but Jesus accepts worship( whats up with that, Marianne, if he is NOT God?) from the little children and also forgives the sins of others(ONLY GOD CAN FORGIVE SINS!) Jesus even replied, “which is easier to do, to say your sins are forgiven or say rise up and go home?” the problem with your theory is, if Jesus is just a man and created, the human race is in a whole lot of trouble b/c Jesus was doing a lot of sinning if he wasn’t God as i stated above. But he was God and man, therefore he was the perfect sacrifice.

        Even one of the names the little baby Jesus was given- to spell it out in PLAIN english to those who couldn’t figure it out-EMMANUEL-GOD WITH US! again not trying to be rude but as a “matter fact”. everyone has an opinion, but if people believe yours, there’s no hope for them in eternity. i’m sure you got a good heart, Marianne and i even thought we were on the same page a couple a weeks ago with comments i made about your wisdom, but today i say you and every other person out there that holds to this false doctrine and theory about who Jesus, your souls are weighing in the balance.

        the apostles and disciples knew Jesus was God–did you know that? did you know if person is properly interpreting the scriptures IN CONTEXT(exegesis)-this fact is easily understood. have you NEVER read what Thomas said to Jesus after he felt the physical wounds of my LORD and Savior who is also known as my God and every genuine Christians? When the Son of God or God the Son, said, “Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said, “MY LORD AND MY GOD!” And read the rest of that CANONIZED text to the end of John chapter 20. No other disciple, including Peter says one thing to correct him in what he said. Because it is a given by now, that anyone with any true discernment of who Jesus was in reading the old testament books and all the gospels to the end of JOHN can figure out DAAHHH–HE’S GOD. that proves the author of Heaven waits didn’t do enough scripture research before they put that silly prompt out to everyone about IS JESUS CO-Equal in the trinity! great website, but they missed it on that one and so did you unfortunately in saying Jesus is not God. b/c then you have Christians blaspheming him saying he was never God and never made that claim. what bible are people reading these days?

        the problem is that alot of people don’t understand the difference of Son of God -God the son and the Son of Man. scriptures show, though out the gospels, his relationship to mankind and his human qualities as Son of Man. but scriptures also show the other part of Jesus(God) through Son of God and God the son info. in the text. again any reputable scholar and teacher is familiar with the term Theanthropus–he was born incarnate of a virgin becoming a man. he was 100% God and 100% man. he did the will of the Father to perfection. only God can follow God’s plan perfectly-thats why he became man, but supposed Christians that deny this very fact, by their own acknowledgement are not true Christians b/c they are denying the foundational tenants of the faith.

        again –won’t be replying back to you anymore b/c i don’t truly see us apart of the same faith–it’s a shame that it has to be like this, but some people want to read what they want to believe scriptures are saying, denying the very fundamentals that have been well accepted by the canon and most reputable teachers and scholars of the faith. i say to you and other scripture torturers out there, “Study to show yourself approved a workman, that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of GOD.” i will be posting a blog regarding this type of heretical doctrine about the Trinity and Jesus on 1/8/10 so people can get the facts in the whole context like we are suspose to according to exegesis hermeneutics not isogesis which is most prevalent. thank you anyway for causing me to better be able to defend the faith against false doctrines. again, nothing personal, but i have to call these things out so people don’t die and go to hell over false teachings of who Jesus actually is–our eternities depend on it.

        remember-you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. may you find the truth in Jesus, the exact expression and express image of the invisible God.

        • Thank you j.d. for speaking the truth unafraid! For those who deny that Jesus Christ is God are in danger of the eternal fire and those who teaches that Jesus Christ is not God are wolves. But those who clothe themselves in the Holy Scriptures and teaches that The Savior Jesus Christ is not God are ‘ravenous wolves in sheeps’ clothing.’
          To these The Lord will say ‘Depart from me you who despises me!!’
          ‘Depart from me for verily I never knew you!.’
          This speaks to me of ‘the judgment’ of God! The Sceptre is in His Right Hand.
          Let him who has an ear … hear!
          Hear HIM!!

          • no problem Abigail–i’m just glad we still have some genuinesaved folks up in here. keeping spreading the word that Jesus is LORD and GOD and creator of all things and that every person will give an account to him on the day of judgment. praise the LORD–your great!

            • jd

              you do not understand me yet.

              yes Jesus was born of a virgin….and he is the son of God…always was….even before he incarnated on earth.

              I never said he was not divine. His father is God, and he is the son of God. However, he is not his father.

              There were 2 personalities in the burning bush. The Father was present in the fire. The angel of the Lord was also present, who is believed to be Jesus in his pre-earthly form. Since no man can see God and live, Jesus was also there to represent visually his Father. By saying he was the I AM, he was saying that he was the angel of the Lord, who spoke those words to Moses. Jesus carries the name of his Father.

              I never said he was just a man. He was a heavenly being that became born as man.

              EMMANUEL – That is an old testament scripture. he was named yeshua or god is salvation. He has yet to completely fulfill the Emmanuel prophecy, since he came and left. He will fulfill this for good on his return.

              there is plenty of hope. Jesus is the Messiah and the only way to the Father God.

              according to the words of Jesus, his Father is God, and he is the son.

              yes I read what Thomas said….Jesus was now in his heavenly form again. Jesus said, when you see me, you see the Father…….so the glory of his father was manifest…….but Jesus is not his father.

              Jesus submitted to the Father, and said the Father was greater than he was. So he was given all authority to minister by the Father , but still submits to him. This indicates a lack of equality

              those that established the cannon also said that Mary was a co-redeemer with Jesus.

              I know him…he is my Lord and Savior.

  30. Marianne and jd,

    I agree that it is a lengthy topic and much research is needed. I do not expect people to change their beliefs overnight. I am aware that the Trinity has been the “cornerstone” of Christianity for about 1600 years. However, there is much evidence that the Christians of the first three centuries did not believe in it. The Trinity was made formal doctrine by the emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Many historical sources reference this fact. Constantine wanted the Trinity in his new “Christian” religion because the pagan Romans also believed in a Trinity. Thus he was able to accomplish a merger of the Christian and pagan religions to form Roman Catholicism.

    I do not believe that believing that Jesus is God’s Son and not God undermines his position. He is currently on God’s right hand, doing God’s work. He is my lord, savior and redeemer. I am very thankful that he gave his life that I could be saved and be granted eternal life.

    As I stated, I do not recommend an immediate change of beliefs. What I do recommend is a thorough, honest study using both Biblical and historical sources. Research must be done from an unbiased viewpoint. In doing this, both positions must be considered.

    Richard

  31. j.d. stegall, marianne,

    When Jesus said to Pharisees “Before Abraham was, I AM.”, it had double meaning (irony of God – using game of words which Pharisees and Scribes loved so much), because he was both saying that he pre-existed Abraham, because the verb “to be” in present tense is translated as “YHVH”, that’s why present tense of “to be” is never used in hebrew, because God’s name means “I AM” in present tense (not “Eheyeh”/”I will be” in future form as told to Moses at burning bush”); So, Jesus actually said:
    “Before Abraham, YHVH” or in other words “I am YHVH”;
    Pharisees were not angry because Jesus said that he was some angel that lived before Abraham, or that he was reincarnation of someone who lived before Abraham, but that he was actually God the Creator, pronouncing out loud the name YHVH – which was also forbidden; And that’s why they wanted to stone him, not because he was Son of God and Messiah (which he certainly was), but that he “being a man” was making himself God;

    Zechariah 12:10.
    “And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.”

    Here, the clue is found in the words, ‘they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced’;

    How do you explain this?

    It was YHVH communicating that message to Zechariah, the same God who appeared to Moses, and God says that He would be ‘pierced’…how much more proof do you need?

    Doubting Thomas called Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28) – If Jesus was not God, then He was leading his followers into idol-worship (God forbid), because ONLY God can be worshipped;

    “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord”
    Deuteronomy 6:4

    • gavriel

      but it sounds like Deut 6:4 should say

      “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is two Lords”

      • It certainly doesn’t sound that way.

        What makes you think that way?

        “Shma Yisrael – Hear, O Israel:

        YHVH Eloheino – the LORD our God

        YHVH Ekhad – is one LORD”

        • from what Thomas says…….Jesus + the father = 2

          • Wasn’t Thomas speaking to Jesus only, he called Jesus by both names; When prophets speak about the Lord and God they don’t speak about two personalities;

            Prophets knew that people would get confused seeing that Almighty, All powerful Creator would humble Himself by identifying Himself with humanity, and that’s why they warn everywhere that God is One and that He was, is and always will be same;

            We will have to wait and see, because during the Second Coming – everyone will see the same;

            Bless!

  32. obviously it is the LORD our God is one, but one must put the bible together with proper hermanudics. just b/c bible isn’t named in the bible doesn’t mean that it isnt 66 books by over 30 authors put together by the HOLY SPIRIT(God) over 100’s of years. several places it is referred to in the bible especially the baptism of Jesus. it isn’t 3 Gods but 3 persons-coequal working out the complete plan of salvation through mankind. the concept of the Trinity was apart of the cannon but recently coined, simply to give some type of reference point. Jesus was never created, plus all things were made for HIM, BY HIM and all things hold together in HIM–sounds like God to me, and it did to the apostles and disciples and the early church b/c they worshipped HIM and Jesus never turned them away. So what we have here Marianne, is either Jesus is the biggest imposter in the history of the world or he is exactly who scriptures and he claims himself to be. THE same God that spoke to MOSES in the burning bush(I AM). the HOLY SPIRIT is also GOD b/c we know he was there in Genesis 1:1-10 during creation. we also know clearly from scriptures that in the book of Acts, when the couple lied about the real eastate sold–the bible says, But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. skeptics try and say the Holy Spirit is a thing, not a person, but that is an unfortunate lie of the devil, where scripture is clear that he has a seperate work to do foe fulling the plan living for Christ Jesus in this evil day.

  33. I am posting 1 of a series that we should all watch.
    Maybe we can still all learn.

    • Hi Abigail,

      Doesn’t look authentic to me at all;

      When God will desire to reveal original NT manuscripts, He will do so;

      Seems that author of this “Hebrew” Gospel pushes his own agenda, by giving words of Jesus completely different meaning;

      It’s very obvious to me, because I know hebrew;

      • What I thought most interesting in this series is the Greek picture of Jesus.
        The lecturer specifically speaks of Jesus as being Hebrew and His disciples were Hebrew and the inscription ‘King of the Jews’ was written in Hebrew, in Latin and in Greek.
        Hebrew was the language the Savior spoked and Hebrew was the thought system at the time in Israel.
        I encourage you to view the entire 6 videos in this presentation.
        But I do appreciate your input as well Gavriel.
        Hear O Israel The Lord, The Lord our God is One.
        We are the sons and daughters of Hashem our God.

        • Jesus and apostles would use both Hebrew and Aramaic, like most Jews of that time;

          Hebrew and Aramaic are very similar, and Aramaic is considered encoded version or “other side” of Hebrew;

          Sometimes Rabbis specifically taught secrets of Torah in Aramaic, and explanation was that: ‘angels do not understand Aramaic and wouldn’t envy them’;

          It is still mystery to me why Jesus quoted Psalms in Aramaic translation (‘Eli, Eli Lama Sabachtani’) and why he ressurected Jairus’ daughter by speaking to her in Aramaic (‘Talitha Kumi’ – Rise little girl) – it was not because he knew Aramaic better than Hebrew, but was part of tradition which existed among Rabbis as well – that secret things are better to be spoken/done in Aramaic, so that angels wouldn’t hear them;

          • gavriel

            do you think there is a hebrew or aramaic version of the new testament?

            it would be nice to have it

            • Yes, I think so;

              God preserves His word, as He done with Dead Sea Scrolls – and revealed them just year before creation of State of Israel in 1947, because that generation was meritious;

              Our generation probably didn’t merit yet to see original gospels;

  34. jd

    you do not understand me yet.

    yes Jesus was born of a virgin….and he is the son of God…always was….even before he incarnated on earth.

    I never said he was not divine. His father is God, and he is the son of God. However, he is not his father.

    There were 2 personalities in the burning bush. The Father was present in the fire. The angel of the Lord was also present, who is believed to be Jesus in his pre-earthly form. Since no man can see God and live, Jesus was also there to represent visually his Father. By saying he was the I AM, he was saying that he was the angel of the Lord, who spoke those words to Moses. Jesus carries the name of his Father.

    I never said he was just a man. He was a heavenly being that became born as man.

    EMMANUEL – That is an old testament scripture. he was named yeshua or god is salvation. He has yet to completely fulfill the Emmanuel prophecy, since he came and left. He will fulfill this for good on his return.

    there is plenty of hope. Jesus is the Messiah and the only way to the Father God.

    according to the words of Jesus, his Father is God, and he is the son.

    yes I read what Thomas said….Jesus was now in his heavenly form again. Jesus said, when you see me, you see the Father…….so the glory of his father was manifest…….but Jesus is not his father.

    Jesus submitted to the Father, and said the Father was greater than he was. So he was given all authority to minister by the Father , but still submits to him. This indicates a lack of equality

    those that established the cannon also said that Mary was a co-redeemer with Jesus.

    I know him…he is my Lord and Savior.

  35. According to my Aramaic concordance, “I am” in John 8:58 is in the past tense. It should be translated “I was”. This verb in Aramaic is not limited to Yahweh, but is used many, many, many times in the Aramaic New Testament. Jesus existed in God’s foreknowledge as the promised seed of Genesis 3:15 before Abraham.
    1 Peter 1:20 is a very clear scripture on this.

    Richard

    • Hi Richard

      Gavriel pointed out above that the present tense is not used by Hebrews, since it actually means YHVH, and is too holy to pronounce. So we see future and past tense being used instead.

      the verb “to be” in present tense is translated as “YHVH”, that’s why present tense of “to be” is never used in hebrew, because God’s name means “I AM” in present tense (not “Eheyeh”/”I will be” in future form as told to Moses at burning bush”); So, Jesus actually said:
      “Before Abraham, YHVH” or in other words “I am YHVH”;

      Although someone translated the bible that you have into aramaic, we do not have any original aramaic texts to go by, to see what it actually said.

  36. Hi Marianne,

    I agree that we have no original texts, Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic. So we are not sure what was actually said. The Greek does have “I am”, present tense (eimi). However, it is also used many, many times in other verses. It is not limited to the sacred Hebrew name for God (YHVH). If Jesus were truly saying “I am YHVH”, wouldn’t this contradict what you were saying before, that you did not believe that Jesus was God, but rather the Son of God?

    Richard

  37. General note:

    the relationship between the father and son is so intimate that is hard to distinguish them. They are truly one in spirit.

    Jesus never said he was God, but the son of God. This does not mean he is not divine. The term God here is one of title, and essence. Being the son of someone means you share their essence, just as you are human, because your father is human.

    The bible identifies the Father as God, and Jesus as the son of God and Lord. Sounds the same in a way doesn’t it? If a king has a son, he is the prince. Both are royalty, and both are treated with the same honor. Yet it is the king who is in charge, not the prince.

    As Jesus is the son of God, he is divine as his father is divine. Yet, Jesus indicated he was only to do his father’s will, and speak the words his father gave him. Jesus submitted to the father. So you see the hierarchy. Both are divine, but the father is boss.

    But as the prince who gave his life for us, Jesus has tremendous authority which was transferred to him by his father. He sits at the right hand of his father in power and glory, and is essentially equal to him in many/most ways. If Jesus can sit on the throne of heaven and command angels, and speak words which can disrupt the foundations of the earth, isn’t he as God ?

    in the OT, the father spoke most of the time as god, so when the Shema was said, it was referring to him. However, to make it a little complex, Jesus was there as angel of the lord, and spoke the words, as he is “the Word,” that “I AM.” No other being in heaven could say the words I AM (God). except the son, speaking for the Father.

    The relationship between the father and son is so intimate that they are hard to distinguish. That is why we can say Jesus is God and not be wrong. If we say the father is God and Jesus is the son, we are not wrong either.

    • The ‘son’ and the word ‘begotten’ and then the word ‘only’ should perhaps be looked at again. I do not think the word ‘son’ as a seed is correct. A seed has to grow etc.
      But maybe the word ‘son’ as ‘bread’ be more correct although it does imply a finished product from seed to bread.
      And that cannot be true either in its process because it implies a creation rather than the Creator.
      Jesus is God, the only begotten of God.
      Better said like this … I AM I *REALLY* AM.’
      Ponder this carefully because this is ‘TRUTH’ !!
      God the only begotten of God.

  38. Marianne,

    It appears that we agree on most points. I do believe that Jesus has great delegated authority. He is second only to God. The relationship between God and Jesus is clearly explained in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. However it appears that we disagree on one point. In your last post you stated “Jesus was there as angel of the lord, and spoke the words, as he is “the Word,” that “I AM.” No other being in heaven could say the words I AM (God). except the son, speaking for the Father.”

    Are you stating that Jesus had pre-existence as an angel before he was born to Mary? Here is where our beliefs differ.

    I believe that the Bible supports the truth that Jesus is a man. However he is not an ordinary man. 1 Corinthians 15:21. Since Adam, the first man, handed the dominion which was given him to Satan, God had to send a second (perfect) man, Jesus, to redeem mankind from his fallen state. This redemer had to live a perfect life and die as a sacrifice for sin. Jesus is now glorified and rules from the right hand of God with great authority and power, as you stated. However, the Bible still calls him a man. 1 Timothy 2:1. He is now a glorified man.

    • hi Richard

      The idea that Jesus was the “angel of the lord” is a theory with some scriptural basis. It is an opinion.

      But this does NOT mean he was an ordinary “angel” who became man.

      As I said, he was divine as his father was divine, which would have made him different from other heavenly beings. It is just that man, in his writing, perceived him as an angel, not that he was actually one. It was a title given him.

      I am thinking of writing another post about the Hebrew oral tradition of the “lesser YHVH.” This would explain the role Jesus had before he came to earth a little better.

  39. Hmmm… Maybe I can try put in something as easy to understand translating for others who might have hard time understanding all the explaination 🙂

    ” Word is in God.. God is with Word… Word is in God.. God in Word.. almost very much like becoming ONE.. Word is Jesus…
    God risked everything to send Word to come down to become Jesus, HIS only son.. yet not… ALL in ONE.. ”

    Make it simple. Jesus is king of kings.. the lamb.. with God.. is the word.. yet God all the same time.

    The reason I give the simple words for some people who have limit of understanding.. but they will understand if anyone would put basic word for them to picture. Pardon me for doing this 🙂
    God wants it simple.. Not big words. And… urgent… He also says ” Help others to know the truth of hell… and wants them ALL to be saved if they accept Jesus their Savior.. so they will not go there in Sheol ( hell )..”

    Please do read ” 23 minutes to Hell ” I agree totally because I do know what it looks like and knows many .. since I have been among to protect others from them. I have seen enough to thank God everyday for being with me since birth of breath life.

  40. Marianne,

    I like your statement “The idea that Jesus was the “angel of the lord” is a theory with some scriptural basis. It is an opinion.” This tells me that you accept the scriptures as your standard. The term “divine” means “of or from God”. Based on this definition, Jesus is definitely divine. This is because of his divine, miraculous conception.

    Richard

  41. Analogy would be that of an earthly king, who is rightful heir to the throne; And he has a mission which cannot be performed in his palace, nor in his country; So, the king leaves his palace and his country, leaving his royal priveleges, authority and majesty behind himself, because he cannot appear in a foreign country dressed like king, so people do not recognize that he is the same king that sat in the palace and think that it is his son or relative, because he has similar features as a king; They think that if king doesn’t wear royal garments and crown, he is not the king and is someone else, but that is a delusion, because it is king’s rightful CLAIM to the throne that makes him a king, and this claim is always with him, whether he is in palace or outside of it;

  42. A good example of this analogy was Joseph in Egypt. Pharaoh was “boss”, but Joseph pretty much ran the show.

    • hi richard,

      Good thought.

      In the corporate world, this is called “delegation of authority.”

      The boss sits back and makes everyone else do the work.

    • hi richard,

      Good thought.

      In the corporate world, this is called “delegation of authority.”

      The boss sits back, and makes everyone else do the work.

    • mmm…Pharaoh was King, and Joseph was Prime Minister…I don’t really see a message here…

      Joseph disguising himself to his brothers seems more relevant…when Joseph was simply an outcast brother, his brothers had enough nerve to throw him into a pit, but when he was sitting on a throne of a ruler, they bowed down before him…Jospeh sitting on a throne was THE SAME Joseph thown into the pit…

  43. Yeshua Is God And Messiah!

    Understanding The Triune nature of God

    by Brother Raymond

    http://www.theshofar.org/?p=57

  44. Gavriel made a good point. The same Jesus Christ who was crucified is now seated on the right hand of God with great authority.

  45. Here’s a new Book by http://www.ariel.org/news/metzger-dmu.htm

    Q & A with John Metzger

    Author of the new book: Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God.

    We caught up with Ariel Ministries’ very own John Metzger to discuss his new book on the tri-unity of God. Metzger explains why he wrote this book, and how he took this complex and rather complicated subject matter and turned it into something that is understandable for both Jewish and Gentile believers and effective for Jewish evangelism.

    Ariel Ministries: What prompted the idea to write a book about the Trinity?

    John Metzger: I had to write a thesis paper for my masters at Lancaster Bible College and Graduate School. Since I had been involved in Jewish ministries, I had wanted to do something that would benefit me and others. I also said to myself, “I am not writing this book if it will sit on a seminary library shelf and never be used.” Little did I know, at the time, that I had chosen a topic that very little had been written about.

    Ariel: How is this book different from other books (or studies) on this topic?

    Metzger: The difference between this book and all the others written on the Trinity is that everyone starts from the New Testament, but Jewish people do not believe in the New Testament. So I decided to prove the plurality of God, or the tri-unity of God, from the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament). If Jesus is God, then it must be clearly presented by the Hebrew Scriptures so that other believers can present the tri-unity of God and the deity of Messiah to Jewish people. Many Jewish people will recognize the Tanakh as their Scripture (Tanakh is the Jewish term for the Old Testament).

    Ariel: In your “Preface”, you state that the purpose of this book is “two-fold”. Can you please explain?

    Metzger: Jewish people and Judaism rejects the teaching of the tri-unity of God as a concept borrowed by the Church from pagans in the 3rd century CE, and that it is not in the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures). According to them, Jesus cannot be God. The redemptive plan of God that true believers of the New Testament present is not valid for them. So once again, studying the tri-unity of God from the Tanakh is of utmost importance. It is also crucial that we do not read Christian doctrines back into the Tanakh. On the contrary, the Tanakh is the foundation for all the doctrines taught in the New Testament. This book is a direct challenge for Jewish people to look at what God is saying in the Tanakh, and compare it with what the rabbis have taught since the time of Messiah.

    I also wrote this book for believers so that they can be equipped from the Tanakh in order to present the Hebrew Scriptures to Jewish people, showing that Moses and the prophets spoke clearly concerning the nature and essence of the tri-unity of God and the deity of Messiah in the Tanakh.

    Ariel: Do you find that there is much ignorance in the belief system amongst Christians (or Jews, or even Messianic Jews) when it comes to the Trinity?

    Metzger: Amongst Jewish people, there is a complete ignorance on this subject. Rabbinic Judaism has taught, since the time of Messiah, that God is an absolute One and not a plurality or tri-unity in One. They either ignore this truth, or they do “rabbinic gymnastics” to get around the subject while steering clear of the teaching that God gave through Moses and the prophets. As to Christians who believe in this doctrine, they usually have a difficult time explaining itbecause there is ignorance and general lack of knowledge and understanding concerning the tri-unity of God in the Hebrew Scriptures. Pastors and professors have greatly neglected this doctrine. Most Christians read the New Testament and then read their understanding of the New Testament back into the Tanakh instead of using the Tanakh as the source. The New Testament builds on the doctrines already taught in the Hebrew Scriptures. This book fills a gap in the Doctrines of God and Christ from the Tanakh. Jewish believers in Jesus Christ believe in the tri-unity of God and that Yeshua (Jesus) is equally God with the Father and with the Holy Spirit. Although Jewish believers accept who Yeshua is, the terms are not very palpable to them.

    Ariel: What is your goal for this book, and what do you hope to see it accomplish?

    Metzger: I want to see Jewish people, including rabbis, be challenged by their own Scriptures and by true believers in Jesus as to whom He is – the God-Man and Messiah of Israel. I wrote it because of my heart for Jewish people, that they would see the true nature, character and essence of their Messiah. I wrote this for Gentile believers to be equipped to share their faith from the Tanakh without being intimidated by Jewish people and their own lack of knowledge regarding this neglected doctrine.

    To order your copy of Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God, visit our Online Catalog -or- contact our Home Office at (877) 242-7435.

    To learn more about John Metzger, visit http://www.PromisesToIsrael.org

    August 13, 2010

    Copyright © 2010 Ariel Ministries. All rights reserved.

  46. Marianne

    English translations fall far short of the true meaning – believe me, here is but one God and He us Jesus. You will see various and different appearances of Him in the Bible. As a scientist, it will only be natural for your to interpret literally.

    God – Elohim – is in the plural for the reason of multiple majestic attributes of God and not different persona. Also, bear in mind that the man Jesus differs in appearance from Jesus as our Father.

    Read John 1:1-9 with Revelation 5:6, or Revelation 19:11-16. Things will then become more clear to you.

    Also, bear in mind not just the limitations of the English language (which lacks certain ways of expression) but also the intentional mistranslation along the way by more than one whom had adapted original meaning to rather suit their own convictions and lifestyles.

    The trinity concept itself comes from pagan mythology.

    http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=725X1342&site=heavenawaits.wordpress.com&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yahwehism.com%2Fhtml%2Fsacred-name.html&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fheavenawaits.wordpress.com%2Fgod-who-is-gawd-who-is-gad%2F

  47. Try this instead http://www.yahwehism.com/html/sacred-name.html

  48. YAHWEH Elohim is never spoken of as being the Absolute Numeric One YACHID. YAHWEH Elohim is spoken of as being The Uniting One. ECHID. ECHID is a plural One while YACHID is a singular One. Elohim is a plural word while YAHWEH Elohim says HE is US, OUR. YAHWEH Elohim is the Unified Oneness, Composite Oneness. The Pastors of the Congregations in the first century who were taught by the Apostles themselves in their teachings wrote about YAHWSEH Elohim’s Diversity of Unity. The Unitarians and others like them tried to destroy all copies of these teachings. If you do not believe I AM you will die in your sins. This is a stark warning given by YAHSHUA Himself. I feel so sad for the people in the Philadelphian denomination who reject the Apostle’s Teachings about YAHWEH Elohim. YAH is also His name and is found in both Names, YAHWEH and YAHSHUA.

  49. Kenneth,

    I agree with you. YHWH is one, not three.

    Deuteronomy 6:4 (King James Version)

    4Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    This is Israel’s Pledge of Allegiance, if you will. The Germans heard the Jews in the gas chambers singing the Shema while they were being gassed.

    There was only One from creation to Yahshua, YHWH!
    Only One from Yahshua to His ascension:
    Only One from Ruach HaKodesh unitl now:
    Only One during the 1000 year Reign of Messiah into eternity.

    ONLY ONE!!!

    • Finally!!! I am able to understand this now and explain it! thank you 🙂

      He did a very good job explaining this.

  50. The doctrine of the trinity was introduced by Constantine, and goes totally against the beliefs that Yeshua taught. The trinity started the cult of Constantine, which has been responsible for the disposession, torture, imprisonment, and execution of millions of people throughout the ages. The devil couldn’t have devised a better doctrine dressed up as light, to do so much work of darkness. Constantine considered himself to be the 13th apostle..numerically its a number of darkness in the bible. Constantine was a pagan, and he turned Christianity into a hybrid religion of politics mixed with paganism, which later became Catholocism or Imperialist Christianity. The doctrine of the trinity was never taught by Yeshua, it was and continues to be totally superfluous to the bible’s teachings. The trinity is nothing more than Constantines personal take on things, which has been responsible for the indoctrination of heresies taught within the circles of Christondom.

    Yeshua always stated that he was and is subordinate to the Farther, although he reiterates time and again that he and YHVH are one in purpose. Yeshua was both son of man, and son of YHVH, and thereby had our nature as well as the character of his Farther. Just as one might say of their children..you are just like your mother Yeshua was in every way like his Farther. Yeshua was tempted in every way that we are, and yet without sin..the Farther cannot be tempted..yes cannot even look upon sin. This is why Yeshua’s name is above every name because he did what the imortals could not do..destroy sin in mortal flesh and thereby reconcile us to YHVH.

    Classic passages are often qouted without an understanding of Greek grama or the original meaning of the language. The Greeks made great use of personfying objects or abstract ideas. The bible does this with “wisdom” and in a more profane way we do it with ships calling them she or her etc. The Gospel of John ch 1 should read..”In the beging was the (word) thoughts and expressions of God, and the thoughts and expressions (word) was with God, and the thoughts and expressions (word) was God.
    Interestingly the diaglot has him in verse 3 rendered as..it..the gender has been removed!

    This is just a taste of the many things which could be said of the trinitarian heresy. Even well known and notable church clerics have denounced the trinity as having its origins in paganism. Let the truth be known..Amen.

  51. Jesus is God – already John 1 says that. Why these arguments, which are forbidden in the Bible??

    Why even have questions about these things when we all know there is just ONE God, clearly defined in the Word?

    Isaiah 9:6

    New International Version (NIV)

    6 For to us a child is born,
    to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called
    Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
    Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

  52. Trinity

    http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.html#_1_4

  53. Trinity is when Gods speak through Jesus then we have one God. God the holy spirit adn the son. But when God doesn´t speak through his son Jesus is just the son and not God. Jesus came in flesh to speak Jesus fathers words. Jesus makes misstakes but God doesn´t so they are not equal.

  54. The way I explain it is that “the Word” is simply “God Manifest.” The Bible says God is a “Spirit whom no man hath seen nor can see.” He “dwells in unapproachable light.” In other words, it would fry our circuits if we got too close to Him. (Even though He dwells somewhere, God is still omnipresent and I will touch on that below.) Therefore, the invisible, unapproachable God had to make Himself visible and approachable if He wanted to have a relationship with His future creation. He did that in the form of “the Word.” That visible, localized expression was “with God” and “was God.” It is equal to God because it is simply God made manifest.

    The manifestation God chose for Himself to dwell in apparently looked like a super-glorified human. Yes, the human body is the form God designed originally for Himself to interact with His creatures. This is why He said, “Let us make man in our image.” Man was created to look like the glorified Word, the visible expression of God. This is the form in which God “walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden in the cool of the day.” And when Adam sinned, he lost this glorified state (blazing light), which is why for the first time he realized he was naked. There was no longer any light covering him.

    “In the beginning” apparently refers to the beginning of creation. God is eternal and therefore had no beginning. “The Word” (this visible expression or manifestation) was very possibly not eternal, because prior to His creative work, God did not need to be visible nor to communicate with His creatures. Once He began creating, however, “the Word” was a necessary adjunct to His work. But it was not yet fleshly. It was a theophany and could any form at will. For example, prior to His incarnation into flesh, God manifested Himself as: the burning bush, the pillar of fire, the back that Moses saw on Mt. Sinai, the angel of the Lord that appeared to Abraham, the angel of Lord that Jacob wrestled, etc. These were all examples of “the Word,” or God-Manifest. Theophanies.

    Eventually God manifested Himself in, and joined Himself permanently to, unfallen human flesh, through a virgin human woman, through which He became, in a sense, His own Son, the Son of God. The Word made flesh. (He did not have a human father because the curse is passed through the male, since they are the head.) The divine joined itself with humanity for the purpose of redemption, just as we will be joine, to some degree, with divinity for the purpose of ruling and reigning and uniting with Him, when we “become like Him.” He said, “did I not say ye are gods?” “And it has not yet appeared what we shall be…” This is not Mormon theology. It is biblical theology. Someday we will be like Him, and we will dwell with Him in perfect harmony, ruling and reigning with Him as His vice regent. His Queen. He will still be God and we will not, but in some mysterious way that does not currently exist, we will be like Him.

    As to God’s omnipresence, I think of the sun as a near-perfect metaphor. It is a big ball of unapproachable light that we can’t even look directly at without risking our eyesight. We certainly can’t go any nearer to it than we are without great danger. Yet it gives off rays of light that give life to all men. That light flows outward indiscriminately and yet tolerably, and literally makes life possible. And if you take a magnifying glass, and focus that light into a tiny beam, it will burn whatever it’s trained upon. This focused beam is Jesus, God localized into a pinpoint of light that will judge the world.

  55. If Jesus is the Angel of the Lord, who appeared to Joseph twice as the Angel of the Lord? (Matthew 2:13 and Matthew 2: 19,20) was Jesus performing two duties as two different entities? Also in Luke 1:11 and 1:19 the Angel of the Lord is identified as Gabriel.

    • Gary

      There are many angels of the Lord in heaven. However, there is only one “THE” angel of the Lord. Chief over all other angels. The one that came to Joseph was not THE angel of the Lord (top one), but AN angel of the Lord (one of many). I have been considering doing a post on this, to explain this. THE angel of the Lord can forgive sins, for example.

  56. the angel of the lord in mattew is not the same angel as in luke.

  57. Jesus is God (Jehovah) and the scriptures back that up. ‘The Word was God’ , ‘This is the true God and eternal life’, ‘and all the angels shall worship Him (Jesus)’, ‘Thomas answered him and said unto him: My Lord and my God’. Jesus can be worshipped (letter of Hebrews). Only God can be worshipped. And the thing I read in this topic about the fact that you can’t trust the scriptures on this topic is nonsense.
    I also want to remind everyone of 1.Timothy 3:16: Great is the mystery of godliness: God manifested in flesh ” GOD manifested in flesh, GOD (theh-os) <–greek for God and (kurios) <– greek for Lord, God and so forth (not close quotes). This topic, the author have not studied. Here is a quote from the topic above: Not one time is Jesus called God. '' and I've mensioned more than one time.

    I'm sorry. My agenda is not to hit anyone in the head with the bible, but this is serious. Jesus says that we will die in our sins if we don't believe that He is who He says He is (gospel of John). So please, turn away from this view of yours.

    May Jesus give you light on this matter by His grace so you can know His peace in this matter in Jesus name. Amen.

    Sincerely,
    signofgrace.

    • dear signofgrace

      note the scripture where I quoted Jesus himself.

      Finally, the words of Jesus Himself, as the prays in the garden, before His death:

      Jhn 17:1 These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
      Jhn 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
      Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

      I never said Jesus was NOT part of the godhead..but that the father is greater, and above from John 17 indicates what jesus said about the relationship.

      this is food for thought.

  58. Quote Marianne: I never said Jesus was NOT part of the godhead..but that the father is greater, and above from John 17 indicates what jesus said about the relationship.

    this is food for thought. ”

    You said Jesus was not called God one time, but later you say that Jesus is divine by Sonship. So, I’m sorry, my bad, but that is your own idea or someone else idea. You wrote:

    Jhn 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    *** if the Father is greater than Jesus, then they are not equal. ”

    The Bible does not agree with you: Heb 2:7-9
    (7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
    (8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
    (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. ”

    In Hebrews 2:7, when it says Thou madest ” look at the greek here: G1642
    ἐλαττόω
    elattoō
    el-at-to’-o
    From G1640; to lessen (in rank or influence): – decrease, make lower. ”

    Paul says: 1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. ”

    You continiue to quote all the greetings from Paul to various churches. Look at the greek word for Lord: G2962
    κύριος
    kurios
    koo’-ree-os
    From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir. ”Scriptures also show that God is being called ‘The Lord’ in different places. The scriptures also teach that if you confess that Jesus is Lord (God) and in your heart believe that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. Let’s not forget that Paul says about Jesus:

    Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    ” Christ is over all, God blessed for ever. He is not made (Prophet Micah 5:1-3). He is from everlasting to everlasting.

    Sincerely,
    signofgrace.

    • what about the words of Jesus,,,, again…… where he says in prayer to the Father in JOhn 17 1-3

      Father, the hour has come, glorify your son, that your son also may glorify you.

      as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him.

      **** Jesus is given authority, meaning he did not have it to begin with

      and this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

      **** Jesus calls the Father the ONLY true God….and then mentions himself afterward

  59. Hey again, Marianne.

    You said and I quote: **** Jesus is given authority, meaning he did not have it to begin with

    and this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”

    John 1:1 – In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word Was God. ” Verse 3: All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made ” . Col 1:16 – For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, wether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. ” Revelation 19:13 – He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. ” Here we see that The Word is Jesus, this Word (Jesus) is God and all things were made through Him, by Him and for Him. And look now in
    Psalm 121:2 – My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth ”. Look now to the hebrew word for Lord in this psalm:

    H3068
    יהוה
    yehôvâh
    yeh-ho-vaw’
    From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: – Jehovah, the Lord.

    This Jehovah, is Jesus Christ, in context of the scriptures. Before Jesus came to earth He had all authority (all power). Remember Hebrews 2:9 – But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, ” and remember also: Philippians 2:7,8 – but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. ” You need to look at the context of the scriptures, Marianne. I do not disagree with you in that Jesus was given all authority in heaven and earth, but look at the context. Check the greek and pray specifically to ‘The God of the Bible’ that he will reveal everything to you. I fear that you may not know the God of the Bible. I’m not being rude, but honest and sincere. I care about you, Marianne and everyone else. Truth matters. Jesus said if you dont believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

    Jesus is and will always be the eternal Jehovah. As Paul said, Jesus is God manifested in flesh.

    And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. ” – 1.John 5:20.

    Sincerely,
    signofgrace.

    Scriptures taken from the New King James Version.
    Copyright 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
    Used by permission. All rights reserved.

    • I guess it depends on what Jesus made, gave up, and what the Father gave to jesus that he did not did not have before..

      The god head is more than we can understand.

  60. I don’t try to understand the Trinity. I just use my mustard seed of faith and accept it.

    • just understand that there is a Father God, he has a Son, and there is a holy spirit….the whole revelation will be waiting for all of us in heaven.

  61. Basically it boils down to :
    Will God break his own rules?
    Answer : no! To do so would not be honest or Righteouss.
    God has said he is immutable. Therefore he can not be incarnate! If God was to be incarnet he would by definition be forced to change and therefore not be immutable!
    ” for I YHVH do not change”
    ” I am not a man nor the son of man”
    ” The Lord God can not be tempted to sin”
    ” immortality alone is found in you God”
    See Yeshua did and was exactly the opposite of these.
    Seeing that a contradiction (out of necessity) is a lie. Then to say Jesus is God is a lie! He is the son of God!

    Besides robbing God of His exalted position as God supreme, believing that Jesus is God also demeans him. One cannot appreciate how great Jesus really was until you make an effort to live like he did for even one day. His courage, mental tenacity, love and great faith are unparalleled in human history. His true greatness is lost if you believe he is God, for “with God all things are possible.” Believing Jesus is God also demeans God because Jesus himself said, “my Father is greater than I.”

    Believing that Christ is God also means that he could not have sinned [which makes sense given that “God” cannot sin]. Christ must have been able to sin, for Scripture says he was “tempted in every way just as we are.” Christ went through life like each human does, with doubts, fears and concerns, and with the possibility of sin. To believe that Jesus could not have sinned makes it impossible for us to identify with him.

    By restoring the Father to His unique and singular position as God, we give Him all the worship, credit, respect and awe He deserves as the One True God. By restoring Christ to his position as the man accredited by God, the only-begotten Son of the Father, the Last Adam, the one who could have sinned but voluntarily stayed obedient, the one who could have given up but loved us so much that he never quit, the one whom God highly exalted to be our Lord, we give Jesus Christ all the worship, credit, respect and awe that he deserves, and we can draw great strength and determination from his example.

  62. You make some good points, Marianne, but if you equate immutability with more than God’s character and essence, then I see why you have come to the conclusion that Jesus cannot be God. However, if you take that view, then who was that in the Garden with Adam, in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and cloud, the Shekinah glory, or the Angel of the Lord who met with Abraham and Jacob? God is invisible and unapproachable (no man has seen God at any time) because the sheer power of his full presence would fry our circuits. We could not survive it. So he HAS to manifest in some way in order to commune with his creatures, and he has, and he will for our sakes for eternity.

    The Word (John 1) is/was simply God-manifest, in a visible, approachable form that his creatures could tolerate. God appeared to his creation like a glorified human and walked with the unfallen Adam in the Garden of Eden. And Jesus is that same Word, made into human flesh. A sort of permanent theophany begotten by the Holy Spirit. But because Jesus did not have a human father, he did not inherit original sin or the curse. So he was able to operate as if he was the federal head of the human race, as the Second Adam. He could calm the sea, stop the wind, heal the blind/deaf/lame, because he was not a subject of the devil’s kingdom like Adam became; and he could be filled with the Spirit as a man (before the outpouring), because he was sinless and had no fallen human nature. Yes, he still COULD have sinned without a fallen nature; Adam DID. But Jesus didn’t. He defeated Satan by refusing to submit to him at the temptation (unlike Adam), even under great duress (no food for 40 days), and that was a phenomenal achievement. We diminish it when we say he couldn’t sin. A agree with your statement in that regard. What a charade that would have been!! And by paying the cruel ransom in his own blood for our release from Satan’s slave camp, he saved us from eternal damnation. He was one with God until the moment sin was imputed to his account on the cross. At that moment, the Spirit of God the Father left him, and he died as 100% man, “the man Christ Jesus” as Paul said, our mediator (God can’t die), alone, judged guilty and without mercy. Jesus is not “the eternal Son” of Christian theology. He is the Word made flesh, the visible, approachable God married to humanity; the firstborn of a new creation of which we will be members. In fact we are made partakers of the divine nature when we believe and receive the Holy Spirit, just as God became a partaker of the human nature. “Today I have begotten You.” The Son did not BECOME a Son. The Word was conceived into human flesh by the Holy Spirit, God’s Spirit. God clothed himself with humanity so that for all eternity he could have a companion who is like himself: holy, sanctified, perfected; and that companion is the Bride. He could not have created another God (thereby contributing to polytheism), but he could embrace, via the manifest Word, another form or theophany for himself to dwell in, without changing his nature or essence. And that is, I believe, what he did.

  63. You make some good points, Marianne, but if you equate immutability with more than God’s character and essence, then I see why you have come to the conclusion you have. However, if you take that view, then who was that in the Garden with Adam, in the burning bush, the pillar of fire and cloud, the Shekinah glory, or the Angel of the Lord who met with Abraham and Jacob? God is invisible and unapproachable (no man has seen God at any time) because the sheer power of his full presence would fry our circuits. We could not survive it. So he HAS to manifest in some way in order to commune with his creatures, and he has, and he will for our sakes for eternity.

    The Word (John 1) is/was simply God-manifest, in a visible, approachable form that his creatures could tolerate. God appeared to his creation like a glorified human and walked with the unfallen Adam in the Garden of Eden. And Jesus is that same Word, made into human flesh. A sort of permanent theophany begotten by the Holy Spirit. But because Jesus did not have a human father, he did not inherit original sin or the curse. So he was able to operate as if he was the federal head of the human race, as the Second Adam. He could calm the sea, stop the wind, heal the blind/deaf/lame, because he was not a subject of the devil’s kingdom like Adam became; and he could be filled with the Spirit as a man (before the outpouring), because he was sinless and had no fallen human nature. Yes, he still COULD have sinned without a fallen nature; Adam DID. But Jesus didn’t. He defeated Satan by refusing to submit to him at the temptation (unlike Adam), even under great duress (no food for 40 days), and that was a phenomenal achievement. We diminish it when we say he couldn’t sin. A agree with your statement in that regard. What a charade that would have been!! And by paying the cruel ransom in his own blood for our release from Satan’s slave camp, he saved us from eternal damnation. He was one with God until the moment sin was imputed to his account on the cross. At that moment, the Spirit of God the Father left him, and he died as 100% man, “the man Christ Jesus” as Paul said, our mediator (God can’t die), alone, judged guilty and without mercy. Jesus is not “the eternal Son” of Christian theology. He is the Word made flesh, the visible, approachable God married to humanity; the firstborn of a new creation of which we will be members. In fact we are made partakers of the divine nature when we believe and receive the Holy Spirit, just as God became a partaker of the human nature. “Today I have begotten You.” The Son did not BECOME a Son. The Word was conceived into human flesh by the Holy Spirit, God’s Spirit. God clothed himself with humanity so that for all eternity he could have a companion who is like himself: holy, sanctified, perfected; and that companion is the Bride. He could not have created another God (thereby contributing to polytheism), but he could embrace, via the manifest Word, another form or theophany for himself to dwell in, without changing his nature or essence. And that is, I believe, what he did.

    • KC

      I agree with you about the work of Christ, but he himself said the Father was greater than he was. people get stuck on John 1, and do not consider the rest of the bible. Both the angel of the lord, and the Father were present at Sinai in the bush, and both spoke to Moses

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