Jesus – before and after earth

The book of Hebrews makes some cryptic comments about changes in the role Jesus had before, and after, his ministry time on earth. While God never changes, Jesus had a more dynamic experience in growth.

Hbr 1:1 God [the Father], who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

*** God the Father has not only spoken to mankind himself, but he also uses his Son to speak through. This is why Jesus is sometimes referred to as the Word of God. The Father is the source of the word, but Jesus is the channel through which it comes.

Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

*** Jesus is the image of the Father. This is how Jesus could tell others that when they look at Him, they were looking at the Father. He was not saying he WAS his Father, but that he was the image of His Father. So, as the image of the Father, he looks like his Father. But an image is not the same as the real thing. When we look into a mirror, we see an image, which is only a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional person. In the same way, Jesus represents just certain dimensions of a multidimensional Father God.

*** It indicates WHEN he had purged our sins, he then sat down at the right hand of the Father King. This means he may not have been in this position before this. The position of authority came ONCE Jesus had made his final sacrifice for sins.

Hbr 1:4 Became [being made] so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

***Jesus became something he was not before- better than the angels. He then obtained something he did not have before- a more excellent name. So what name did he have before, if his new name is Jesus?

Hbr 7:26 For such an high priest became [was fitting for] us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and became higher than the heavens;

*** if he “became” something, it means it wasn’t this before. He became higher than the heavens, which is a new status. If Jesus was already God, as goes traditional doctrine, then there is no way to improve, or get any better, than that.

So, these verses are indicating that Jesus was “less” of something before he came to earth, and more of something, or something else, when he left earth. Jesus went through a change of status and authority.

The bible says that God [ie. the Father God] never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But Jesus has gone through changes. This means that Jesus does not have this quality that the Father God has. This does not mean Jesus is not divine. He is divine, because His Father is divine, just as we are human, as our own fathers are human. It just means Jesus is dynamic.

Jesus changed in status:

1. from Angel of the Lord to High Priest,

2. from lower authority to higher authority,

3. from dwelling in the heavenly abode, to sitting at the right hand of God,

4. from less power, to all power, being given to Him (by the Father God) in heaven and earth.

I now refer to another study I have done on the “Trinity,” and who Jesus really is. I propose that the role of Jesus BEFORE he came to earth was as the “Angel of the Lord.” In this position, he commanded the armies of heaven, and was above the other heavenly beings – angels – in authority. He also made Himself known as the Son of Man in visions of the prophets, and as Debar Jehovah, the Word of the Lord, or the Word of God. Since the Father is the source of all divine Word, Jesus, on occasions, became a conduit for the words of the Father to mankind. This will be reviewed in the study I give.

This does not take away from the divine nature that Jesus had, but it does show that, as Jesus Himself said, He was NOT equal to the Father, and had always submitted to Him, as less than Him. The Trinity concept makes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit equal, and has always made them equal since before the beginnings of the world, when the scriptures do not point to this. There is a trinity of persons, but an inequality is present. The Holy Spirit, another heavenly person who possesses the divine nature of the Father, also is submissive to the Father. This inequality confirms the Oneness of God, because there is only one Father God, and others are beneath Him. However, this does not mean that the divine nature and authority of Jesus and the Holy Spirit should be minimized. They act on behalf of the Father God, and when they do act, they carry the full authority of the Father. Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and other angelic beings, are all part of the heavenly hosts, but the Father is the “Lord of hosts.” When this title is used in scripture, it is referring to the Father only. When the title “Lord” is used, it could mean any of the persons of the trinity.

Note: the angels are NOT divine. Only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have divine natures.

More about the angel of the Lord:

Click here

Here is the link to the “Trinity” study. Chapter 3 gives the most details for what I propose, with justifications.

Click here

See also:

Jesus and His relationship with Father God Click here for more

Did Jesus fulfill the Jewish Scriptures for Messiah? Click here for more

Jesus as the Son of God Click here for more

Is the Jewish Messiah just a man? Click here for more

42 Responses to “Jesus – before and after earth”

  1. […] here for […]

    • John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    • He started in Glory, he ‘became’ flesh, he became ‘sin’ he took all the keys from Satan that once were Adams, then he acended and ‘became’ all that he became as he asended and took up all the officies which he did take ‘all authority’, so don’t be decieved. Most of these old herisees haven’t really been thought out very well and could dam you if you don’t let them go.

      • Why then did he leave the throne in Glory go to hell and rise only to take the same position? Well now he has who knows how many creatures that can be miraculously made partakers of the divine nature and share in His Glory

        Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth..

        It brings God JOY to save sinners.

        Ecclesiastes 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

        Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

        Isaiah 35:10 And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.


        • the Lord Jesus is in an even higher position of glory than he was before.

          • well, for a simple illustration, Mom and Dad have a newborn, they are still Mom and Dad but their is more Joy in the house. why complicate it. 🙂

          • John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

            To me this looks like a return to where he was in the beginning, the only difference was that we could now share in The Glory. John 17:24

            ‘Mom and Dad have a newborn, they are still Mom and Dad but their is more Joy in the house.’ We would be the new born.

            Your article covers the ascension, but remember Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He also decended before that from Heaven to earth. Philippians 2:7-9 But >>made himself<>humbled himself<<, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

            Christ Himself left the glory of Jn17:5 as determined by the Godhead Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

            Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

            I agree with you that the immutability Doctrine (not that I've really Studied Theology) does not seem to fit Scripture concerning Christ, he did 'become' but remember he first 'emptied himself' Php 2:7 (as one of the American translations puts it, I think this might be a good translation, although I usualy go with the AV translators. I think the Greek can read either way.) So he first 'became' flesh, he 'became' sin, he 'became' a cursre, he became obedient unto death, as he had agreed in the beginning when he was with God. And due to being on this mission and having layed down some of His glory and atributes, he could say that the father was greater than him and he never knew the time of his future return and so on.

            I find that systematic theology tends to compartmentalise subjects and by that way it sometimes can avoid contradictions it has.

      • I don’t think a Christian can be damned, but if you are indeed Christian you must let go of error before you come face to face with God in Heaven, you might as well start now, or at least that is what I keep telling myself.

  2. Shalom

    I have found your article on “Jesus – before and after earth” quite interesting. (It reminded of a book – Urantia – I’ve read in my ‘previous’ life … that is before having my ‘revelation’ … or, circumcision of the heart!

    You have made a few observations in your article that I would like to comment on:
    1. And Elohim (God, the Mighty One) said: “Let Us make man …” So if Jesus was an angel or another divine being before the beginning of time (creation) … who were the ‘US’ God (Elohim) referring to in Gen 1:26?
    2. “Jesus Christ (Yahshua Messiah) IS the same yesterday, today, and forever.” Hebrews 13:8 (You wrote, quote: The bible says that God [ie. the Father God] never changes. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. But Jesus has gone through changes. This means that Jesus does not have this quality that the Father God has.) … I do not dispute that YHWH – ABBA, the Self Existing One – is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow/forever; however Hebrews 13:8 said the same about Jesus Christ.
    3. “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father (ABBA, YHWH), the Word (Yahshua Messiah), and the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh); and these three are ONE (emphasis added). 1 John 5:7
    4. “I and my ABBA (Father) are one” John 10:30
    5. Yahshua also said in John 8:58(b), “before Abraham came to be, I am.” By this truth He explained His oneness with the great “I AM YHWH Elohim … this is My name forever.” (Exodus 3:13(b), 14, 15)

    Lastly, ABBA revealed to me one morning during my payer time: “We (Yahshua and YHWH) are one. Jesus was a physical manifestation of My LOVE for the human race (world). Praise and worship to Him is also praise and worship to Me.”

    Lastly, now what about the ‘status’ of the Holy Spirit, the seal of our adoption and redemption (Romans 8:15; Ephesians 1:14)? He cannot be lesser divine. Remember God is Spirit (John 4:24), thereby, sending us His Spirit, we can have constant communion and oneness with Him, so the Holy Spirit is His presence in us … because He is Spirit He can impart His Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is God with us (John 14:16).

    Once again, thank you for an insightful website. I pray that the Spirit of Truth shall be your guide forever. “And you shall know the truth (in your heart – my addition), and the truth shall make you free (and give you peace, Shalom – my addition.” (John 8:32)

    God bless,


    • i wanted to reply to one of your statements in regards to the oneness of god. 1 john 5:7 does state that they are as one not that they are one. the orignal phrasing and translation can be seen in the very next verse
      1 John 5:8 And there are three that bare witness on Earth and they are the Spirit, the blood, and the water and these are as one.
      The Spirit being the father, The blood being the son and the water or breathe as the spirit.

      The words in the bible, for either side of this discussion should not be taken in part but as a whole. The fact is that all THREE father, son and Holy spirit are the same. But at the same time they aren’t. In order to understand this You must understand that god doesn’t relate to us just as we can’t relate to a colony of ants. There needs to be an intermediary (ie. jesus), and a conduit (ie The holy Spirit). Just because these beings are seperate means nothing of their standing only that they are seperate and that they need to be. Jesus spoke to God the father as only a son speaks to a parent.

      Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out “My God, My Father, Why have you forsaken me?

      In order to understand the relationship Jesus had with the father you must read JESUS’ words and not the filler.

      There would be no purpose for Jesus to speak these words in front of his people if he were god the Father, even as a picture of what would be.

      Matthew 26:39 “O father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; Nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

      Matthew 26:42 “O father, if this cup cannot pass from me lest I drink it, Your will be done.”

      Matthew 29:53 ” Or do you now think that I cannot pray to my father, and he will provide me with more than twelve legions of angels?”

      I removed the filler so you can hear HIS voice only. God the father said that he is the spirit of truth and the Christ his voice. Do not focus on the filler but instead focus on the commands and words of the voice. The bible and the meaning of the trinity becomes more clear. Lest we forget that yes the bible is a history, but it is also a story written by men. No matter the status of a man, man is fallible and subject to mistakes. God the father, and subsequently Jesus and the holy spirit are not. Omit for the purpose of faith the words of man and only use them for historical back drop. Instead seek the words of God, Jesus and the holy spirit for therein lies salvation.

      • hi robert

        thanks for your input. the more we discuss, hopefully, the more we will understand mysteries set for before us.

      • We are more than ants. We are made in the image of G-d. We are G-d like. Therefore, We can relate to G-d the Father.

        • Leatherneck & Marianne
          I’ve been biting my tongue for a while, but why can’t you just type God, God isn’t even a personal name it is descriptive, and its in the Bible 1000’s of times, God accepts us in His son through the shed blood, by faith, not by our works of fig leaf holiness, do you have any Scriptural justification? Or is it just a spirit or a prophet telling you not to type God? It seems like nonsense to me I find it hard to take seriously. Do you think you will be cursed if you do? Or are you just trying to make me stumble?

          • realexodus

            I type “god” or “God” all the time. Sometimes I type G-d, which is the hebrew tradition.

            The words God and Lord are used as a substitute in translation for YHVH in many places in the bible. since the knowledge of how to truley pronounce the name has been lost, the jews are afraid of mispronouncing the name, and dishonoring it, so they substitute the words G-d or Hashem or Lord in its place. the G-d is used instead of God to show respect for the name, just as we write “He” instead of “he” referring to him (God).

            So it has nothing to do with prophecy or curses…etc.

            it is just a sign of respect for the name …..YHVH.

  3. Hi Dawid,

    Thank you for your contribution. The point, maybe not clear, is that Jesus went through a change of status. However, that did not mean he was “less divine.” Jesus did say his father was greater than he was, so he was indicating some sort of difference between the 2 of them. I was attempting to explore that statement here.

    blessings and thanks

  4. I received an invite from Marianne on Dec.30th 2008 to read this article. Dawid commented on Nov. 13th with a biblical response in accordance with 2 Timothy 3:16 which I affirm.

    I do lovingly ask Marianne to be submissive to further study before she writes further and reconsiders her *** additions to God’s Word. As I read her concept I became more & more saddened of her denial of the Trinity of God, and that Jesus was in the beginning(Jn:1) and Jesus is 100% God and humbled himself to become 100% man in the flesh.

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    You say “Jesus Himself said, He was NOT equal to the Father,”.but I cannot find this anywhere in the bible. If you are referring to
    Jn 14:28 where Jesus said His Father was greater. He was speaking in his human status and reffering to position. A few verses earlier in v 9 Jesus says “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”.

  5. For those who wish to study further:-

    Multitudes think of the Saviour as just another member of the human race born over 2,000 years ago. Nothing could be further from the truth. Today I clearly want to trace the preexistence of Christ to prove that He was “the Eternal God” who became man, in order that He might die for poor, helpless, hopeless sinners. I also want to show that His birth had to be through the channels of a virgin, inseminated by the power of the Holy Spirit, if His sacrifice for sinners was to be effective.
    Christ’s preexistence
    The altogether lovely One, born in Bethlehem’s manger, existed from all eternity. The verse that prophesies His exact birthplace also tells of His preexistence. Micah 5:2: But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Isaiah masterfully handles this truth in chapter 9, verse 6, For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful,Counsellor, The mighty God,The everlasting Father, The
    Prince of Peace. These terms are possible because of the relation ship of the Trinity. Remember that Jesus said in John 10:30, I and my Father are one.
    John opens his gospel with the statement, In the beginning was the Word, and
    the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:1-3). In verse 14, he identifies this member of the Trinity who is called the “Word.” And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. Think of it. This One who was in the beginning with God and was God became flesh and
    lived among insignificanthuman beings because of His love for sinners.
    Yes, Christ always existed and came from heaven to earth. Listen to His numerous
    state ments verifying this truth: For the bread of God is he which cometh down from
    heaven, and giveth life unto the world (John 6:33). I am the living bread which came down from heaven (John 6:51). Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world (John 8:23). I proceeded forth and came from God (John 8:42). I came forth from the Father,and am come into the world
    (John 16:28).
    In His high priestly prayer, Jesus said, I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was (John 17:4,5). Jesus said in John 5:46, Moses …wrote of me. Here Christ delves
    back hundreds of years to the first five books of the Bible, called “The Pentateuch,” and states that Moses mentioned Him. This is important be cause Moses recorded these words centuries be fore the birth of Christ. Jesus also said in John 8:56, Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. How could Abraham see His day centuries before His birth if there were no preexistent One?

    His preexistence is also proven through the Bible statements indicating that He created the world. John 1:3: All things were made by him. John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Colossians 1:16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him.
    Hebrews 1:2 states, By whom also he [Christ] made the worlds.
    The part Christ had in creating the world and mankind agrees with the Old Testament account of creation. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth (Genesis 1:1). The Hebrew for God is Elohim, a plural noun, mean ing “more than one.” This is a glorious declara tion of the Trinity. You don’t believe it?
    What will you do with Genesis 1:26? And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our like ness. We have but skimmed the surface of evi dence that proves that Christ pre-existed His earthly birth. Now let’s move on to the glorious truth of His coming to earth via the channel of a virgin’s womb. At this point let’s consider Philippians 2:5-8 because it is such a glorious transitional passage.
    It brings the eternal God from heaven to a bodily appearance upon earth so that He might die for sinners. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made
    himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men [His birth].
    Why? Verse 8: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    Christ’s virgin birth
    A virgin birth was necessary because Adam sinned. Since Adam was the head of the human race, every person born into it through natural generation or through the process of birth inher its the old sinful Adamic nature.
    Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Romans 5:12). Yes, all sinned or became guilty of sin simply by inheriting the fallen nature of Adam at birth. Quirks and diseases are passed on from generation to generation. Sugar
    diabetes is a prime example. Likewise, the sin nature is passed on to every generation. Romans 5:18 is another verse that clearly teaches the necessity of a
    virgin birth. Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to con demnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Notice that judgment came upon all men unto condemnation because of Adam’s sin, but through the righteousness of Christ one may be liberated from this judgment. It is only logical to conclude that if Christ had come through the normal
    channels of reproduction, He also would have also been born with this judgment of
    condemnation upon Him because He would also have inherited Adam’s sinful nature. Therefore, in order that He might set men free from this condemnation, He had to be born in another manner so as not to be tainted with the old wicked nature of Adam. There was only one way this possibility existed and that was through a virgin birth— by passing man through insemination of the virgin’s ova by the Holy Spirit. This ova lies dormant in every woman until it is activated by a male sperm.
    Gasoline is also dormant until activated by a spark. Is it impossible for the Almighty
    God, who formed man out of the dust of the ground and took a rib out of man to form
    woman, to place the activating seed within the holy Virgin Mary and bring forth His Son through the mira cle-working power of His Holy Spirit? Of course not! This is exactly what the Father did. Hear the Word of God.
    The very first messianic prophecy is found in Genesis 3:15. There we hear the Lord
    God uttering a prophecy against the serpent, saying, And I will put enmity between
    thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [the woman’s seed] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The statement, “her seed,” is the first reference to the virgin birth in God’s Word. All humans are from the seed of
    man, but the seed of a woman implies a stupendous miracle. Jeremiah 31:22 again speaks of a miraculous event that would occur upon this earth. For the LORD hath created a new thing in the earth, A woman shall compass a man.
    A woman conceiving and bearing a man-child would not be a new thing in the earth —this is the rule of life. After conception, one bears a male or female child. Therefore this entirely new thing that would transpire had to be a miracle.
    What was it? A woman, without any human intervention or penetration, by a man, would conceive, carry, and deliver a man-child. This happened to be the Lord Jesus Christ, Saviour of the world. Isaiah 7:14 again sheds light on this event of the ages. Therefore the Lord himself shall giveyou a sign; Behold, a virginshall conceive, and bear a Son, and shall call his name Immanuel. Isaiah is not merely referring to a young woman giving birth to a son. That would not be a sign. Millions of young women have been able to bear sons. The sign is that a virgin shall bear a son without an act of intercourse.
    Forget the religious argument that the Hebrew word almah is “young woman”instead of “virgin.” All one need do is study Matthew 1:23 where the Greek word parthenos can only be translated “virgin” to arrive at a final answer. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name
    Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
    Verse 22 states that this is a quotation from the prophet. What prophet? Isaiah. And
    where did Isaiah make the statement? Chapter 7, verse 14.
    So, the Greek text handles the Old Testament Hebrew text proving that God meant a “virgin” and not a “young woman.” I repeat what was stated earlier: A young woman bearing a child would be no sign. Any of you young expectant mothers
    reading this would be the first to realize this truth. However, had you become impregnated miraculously by the power of God without knowing a man, it would very obviously be a sign. That happened to Mary and only to Mary. The reason that God the Son, originally in spirit form (see Philippians 2:5), had to have an earthly birth is found in Hebrews 10:4,5. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not [animal blood could not take away sin],
    but a body hast thou prepared me. Since animal blood only covered sin and was presented as a down payment for sin’s debt until God’s Lamb should come, Christ had a body with divine blood prepared that was in the womb of a virgin so that He could shed that blood and die for the sins of the world. Because it had to be pure
    blood, free from the taint of Adam’s sin, the body and blood were prepared by the Father and placed in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Luke 1:26-28,30,31,34
    depicts this thrilling story: And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the
    Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS
    … Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    This is a precious truth. Though she was espoused or engaged to Joseph, she had not known a man or experienced premarital sex. Remember that God wrote the Bible, and He declares that Mary was a pure virgin. Mary declares, “I have never
    known a man — how shall this baby be conceived?” The blessed answer is found in
    verse 35: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Anyone who believes that God created this gigantic, fantastic, and astronomical universe certainly believes that God can bring His only begotten Son into the world by a separate act of creation. With God nothing shall be impossible (Luke 1:37).
    There is the entire story. The preexistent God, second member of the Trinity, came to take upon himself a body with blood so as to shed His blood for sinners. The sin-tainted blood inherited from Adam would not qualify Him as the sinless Saviour, so a body was prepared with blood produced by the Father, and placed into the womb of a virgin by the blessed Holy Spirit. Christ eventually went to the cross and shed His blood. Because He was the God-man shedding untainted holy blood, mankind
    may have eternal life by receiving this sacrifice. Believe the Word of God — see Christ born, crucified, and risen again. Receive this Christ today.

    • You forgot one detail in your deluge of information. Mary the mother was also an emaculate conception. She was the original clean vessel. That is why christ was free of the burden of original sin. Marie was a clean vessel and christ was conceived in her of the father so drom conception to birth he had NO contact with the tainted blood of original sin. Kudos though on your thought and the depth of understanding.

      God bless.

      • Hi Robert

        Even though your post was years ago, I feel compelled to comment on it. Your logic that the virgin Mary had to be the ‘original clean vessel’ and ‘of an immaculate conception’ (that is, born of the Holy Spirit herself) for Christ to be born free from the burden of original sin is incorrect. For it to be correct, then it wouldn’t stop with Mary but would need to be true for the birth of Mary’s mother and all her progenitors, all the way to Eve!

        The virgin Mary, in true terms was blessed amongst women of all ages and time but even she, needed the saviour that was to come through her, Jesus, the only Way to the Father! The scriptures make clear that ALL have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. Romans 3:23, Isaiah 53:6.

        The virgin birth of Jesus was meant to be a sign as foretold by the prophet Isaiah (chapter 7:14), unique with no antecedents nor precedent, irrespective of all copycat so called virgin-birth myths in antiquity.

        Science helps us see how God achieved this without needing to do as you suggest. It is proven that the blood of the fetus and the blood of the mother do not mix in the womb at all, so no ‘tainting’ can occur as you suggest, under normal pregnancies and deliveries.

        Most importantly though, the reason Jesus did not have the ‘original sin’ nature is simply the fact that He was not conceived from the seed of man but proceeded from God, perfect and pure, just like Adam originally was, before the fall. Luke 1:35, Romans 5:12-12, 1 Corinthians 15:45-50.

        Let us trust the Holy Spirit who reveals all truth to the body of Christ. He is the Spirit of Truth. I also rest assured that many of the comments in this forum have addressed the errors and inconsistencies of the original post that I stumbled unto.

        God bless you and may we all continue to grow in Christ.

  6. Hi Derek

    Your comments are most welcome.

    I do believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I just do not believe they are “equal,” since Jesus said His Father was greater than he was. I also believe that Jesus is divine, as his Father is divine, pre-existed in heaven before earth, and participated in the Creation.


    • Praise to the prophetic ministers at El Qana deliverance ministry that confirmed that satan does not have rights to Rhianna Powell soul or the spirit that was also confirmed by Anna & Jackie at Gateway Christian too.

  7. Hi Marianne,

    I also believe the same as you do, in fact read this it’s really interesting disecting John 1:1 and it’s worth a read for those actually interested in the translation as it is very much debated. I think after reading it, it should be “a god” just like in acts 28:6 paul is described as “a god”

    Honor x

    • Hi honor,

      Take a look at this post also.

      1 Cor 8:6 says

      1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

      Here, it is clear that the Father is the source of all things……and Jesus is the intermediary through whom God worked.

      In John 17, Jesus prays to the Father in the garden:

      Jhn 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

      Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

      This should make it very clear.

      Jesus had a heavenly nature, the Father shared his divinity with him, so he could do the redemptive work, but the Father is still God.

  8. Thanks Marianne,

    You write such informal posts!

    Also I like the scripture in 1 Cor 15: 27, 28 But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him.

    It just makes perfect sense and really disproves the trinity.

    Honor x

  9. Hi Derek, When Jesus was tempted by Satan, do you believe that it
    was possible for Jesus to have failed this test ?

  10. Thanks Marianne for your giving me a challenge. What is your own commentary on It gave me a rare opportunity to look into Heb 7:26.

    Copied here is the relevant portion of what you wrote:

    Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became [was fitting for] us,
    [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled,
    separate from sinners,
    and became higher than the heavens;

    *** if he “became” something, it means it wasn’t this before.
    He became higher than the heavens, which is a new status.
    If Jesus was already God, as goes traditional doctrine,
    then there is no way to improve, or get any better, than that.

    Now, the verse as usually translated is somewhat confusing. Here is my version: [bracketed texts are for explanatory expansion]

    For ineed, it was fitting our condition
    to have a kohen gadol such as this:
    one who is holy, guiless , undefiled;
    with His human nature having been [from the beginning]
    separated from the [being of] sinners,
    and having become [exalted] higher than [any of] the heavens;

    He did NOT become ‘something’, NOR put on a new ‘status’. He was exalted – exalted as who He was, who He is and Who He will be.



    • hi oun

      I do not see what your point is.

      At least not from what you wrote.

      • Thanks Marianne.

        I have received your e-mail:
        …. > yes i know.. but his status was changed after his resurrection….he was already in glory before he came here….to say something had not changed before and after his crucifixion would mean that he did not accomplish anything while he was here.  see?

        I do see your point. Allow me to write here as I want to share with others. Please, be patient with me with your forgiving spirit:

        I’m again coping what you wrote as a commentary on Heb 7:26. (Were it not something to do with the biblical text, I would not have any need to put out my comment to begin with.)

        …. *** if he “became” something, it means it wasn’t this before.
        ….He became higher than the heavens, which is a new status.
        ….If Jesus was already God, as goes traditional doctrine,
        ….then there is no way to improve, or get any better, than that.
        ….So, these verses are indicating that
        ….Jesus was “less” of something
        …. before he came to earth, and more of something,
        …..or something else, when he left earth.
        …..Jesus went through a change of status and authority.

        Do you not see problems with the expression, ‘he BECAME something’ ‘he became SOMETHING’?

        Can you see the sense of ‘heavens’ as a metonym?

        Now, about ‘status’. What change of status do we consider here? What change of authority? If you say Jesus was already God (which itself is actually not biblical, as he was a Galilean Jew, born 3 B.C. and died 30 A.D. He did not call him God or a god; told people to call him that way), what authority got changed? What are you referring to ‘lower authority’ and ‘higher authority’? I don’t see there is lower or higher in any divine authority God himself has (except ‘divine authority’ people claims to have).

        We all know God never changes. But do you know God also changes? It all depends on what is meant by ‘change’ and by ‘what is that changed’. God never changes who He is. God’s being is ‘eternal’ ‘unchangeable’, but God’s doing is a-changing, because God of love constantly responds to the need of His created beings (that’s what love is). Yes, Yesha has gone through changes. Life IS changes. But are you saying that the being of who Yeusha is changed (not just from human being to spirit being upon resurrection) .

        What does it mean by ‘angel of the Lord’? Was He? This is so-called angel christology which is followed by Jehovah’s witness, who claims something like this: Jesus was the archangel Michael before becoming a man and now is a mighty god sitting next to the Almighty God Jehovah, and doing whatever Jehovah God tells him to do. (A polytheism with two gods. Cf. A polytheism with many gods – Mormonism and Hinduism) (I doubt you meant ‘angel’ simply as ‘messenger’ neither.)

        High Priest, yeah! I don’t think the letter to Hebrews says He is now our ‘High Priest’ as if we are still in a Temple-based worship system. It simply tells us that because of who He is and of what He has done, the priestly system and the whole religious organization are now superceded and over-written. When we die in Chirst, we will be seeing Him face to face (this is our blessed hope) by His grace. There we are not going see a High Priest, a Supreme Court Judge, a Highest Commander, a perfect Torah-teacher. No, we are going to see the one who loved us and revealed us the very God whom our eyes cannot see.

        You say He was dewlling in the heavenly abode before, now He is sitting at the right hand of God. Where is this place? Abode – dwelling place or house, where is it? Do you picture God as someone like man with hands (right and left), etc.? These are all in the language of anthromorphism. In Acts, what did Stephen saw? With God in the center (on the throne possibly?) and the resurrected Yeshua standing by the right side of God himself? And possible Mr. Holy Spirit on the left as the icon of the Trinity by Rublev in 1410 ( ) might suggest’? By the way, majority of Christians when they think ‘trinity’, sadly it is not much different from Tri-theism. There was no such word ‘person’ in the formulation of the doctrine itself in the beginning. It’s translation of Latin, which was translation of Greek, with now the word picture of ‘person’ giving something like a human being, for God’s sake!

        Speaking of power, no, there was no change in power. It’s just different execution of power in the life of us and in the world. What do you mean by ‘Jesus is dynamic’? He as a dynimc person? as “charismatic” too, as we see with people of charisma-mania?

        What do you think this power God has? The power shown in creation of the world? Power show in the lives who abides in Him? Yes, I’m talking about ‘power of the Spirit’. The H.S. is God coming in power, not a separate (humanoid, Ghost-like) person, despite the archaic KJV word Holy Ghost. The power raditiong from God Himself, as the Sun radiates the energy, is nothing other than God’s self-giving love. Of course, this power belonging to God is not energy/power in physical world, nor power in psychological-social sense, not power in spiritualistic sense. God’s power is simply inexhaustible because it is from God’s being Himself. No, Yeshua is not the one who “did not have less power and then now has more power”. Love does not work like that. (I’m not talking about ‘love’ as we experience btw humans).

        • hi oun

          How God has heaven organized is beyond our imagination, and how the Godhead was organized may never be understood, even after we go to heaven and see it “in person.” The angels are amazed constantly and cry “holy, holy holy.”

          My point was that there are scriptures that indicate some sort of “change” with Jesus. This change does not necessarily mean he was not the son of God to begin with, and did not exist in glory before he came here.
          Jesus kept saying the Father was greater than he was, yet later, after the resurrection, he was given all authority in heaven and earth.

          So it is hard to understand how this happened, when, as son of God, He would already be considered limitless in power to begin with.

    • ounnbl,

      You may have translated the passage differently but you still didn’t see what was in front of your face as you typed. How could he become exalted over all the heavens if he was the highest to begin with. The translation that marianne gave was adequate to portray what was said and you unknowingly confirmed this thought. You CANNOT become something if that’s what you were to begin with. Christ came here to pay for our sins, but he paid the debt BEFORE the foundations of the earth. He only died on the cross because we as humans dont beleive it until we SEE it. He became the Christ long before he ever entered the womb. Before he bled in the streets. Before he died on the cross. He only went through that so WE would believe.



  11. reading through the mails was very interesting. i have seen thorough thinking and as little i am. i have also seen comment with flaws. see, we should first had it in mind that all what we had read and have seen from the ways of God is the most tiny part of His ways. Job was trying to explain who God is saying ” The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof. 12 He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud. 13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. 14 Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?
    think of Jobs knowlege of God yet his knowlege to rubbished by God’s reproof! God is infinite. please note that we use infinite because it is only the word our human brain could accept…..we cant just understand so much. even if we do it is marginal or highly insignificant.see, we cannot have a right conception of God unless we think of Him as all-powerful, as well as all-wise. He who cannot do what he will and perform all his pleasure cannot be God. As God hath a will to resolve what He deems good, so has He power to execute His will. He does what ever He likes and what He want without recourse to anything. Now, we are talking about the preexixtence of Jesus, Father or the Holy Spirit(which is known as the Spirit of God or God in the old testerment). thier is noting like trinity in the Old testerment because their is only One God. its was the birth of Jesus and His statements that recomended the word Trinity. Fine Accepted. see, the fact is the comming or birth of Jesus is the confirmation of Ominipresence and Ominiscient attribute of God. He is Every Where! the believe that less equality can not be found. see, Can Father do anything without the Son or Holy Spirit? or vice versa. Please answer this question within you. God is the same as Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. do you think God can share is Glory with anything if not Himself? He is a jelouse God! Jesus answered them that they are seeing the Father. He also contined that He will ask the Father to send the Holy Spirit, He later said” i will send the Holy Spirit to you!…their after he said I will come for you. He represents both the Father and the Holy Spirit in John 14. Please dont let us represent God in a humanly form.God far beyoud us… which is the mistake we do. we think God in physical way. Jesus existed as God then and now and forever!

    • hi oluwaseyi

      Thank you for your thoughtful comments. God bless you.

    • Olu,

      Jesus is lord. Lord of the heavens, Lord of the Earth, and Lord of man. I have seen nowhere in the bible yet where jesus says he is god or that he is the father god. He does however, several times refer to himself as Lord. In fact he even goes as far as to explain his feilty to the father god while speaking to the pharisees in the square in Matthew 22

      Referring to David speaking in the spirit, as he is talking about the christ as he sits in heaven;

      “The Lord (God the father) said to my Lord (The Christ)
      “Sit at my right hand, Till I make footstools of your enemies.”

      If god the father and The Christ were one in the same what need would there be for the seperation of the 2. This is a constant in the bible. There is reason for that, Jesus is Lord of all and God the father is the force behind it all and the spirit is the conduit for their power. They are all the same in that they all have the authority of God the father. When one speaks as do they all. This makes the Trinity no less integral in fact it makes it more so. For they created us to be as they are….. One day….. A perfect family working in harmony. And I hope that all that read this, see this, and pray that the day comes soon when all mankind will rise to sit with Christ on the right hand of God as the children of heaven.

      God bless you all,


  12. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Who is this child? Jesus Christ.
    Who is the mighty God? Jesus Christ
    Who is the everlasting Father? Jesus Christ
    Who is the Prince of Peace? Jesus Christ

    This should answer everybody here. God is an eternal being.

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    So there is no God beside One God, the eternal Father.
    Now about Jesus praying to the Father and calling Him ‘greater than I’, yes Jesus had to say that as He was in flesh. No flesh can glory before Him.

    1 Corinthians 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

  13. I’m sorry I disagree with this Jesus was always better than the angels when he came into the world his status dropped Hebrews 2:9 and because he became Human the Angels were ordered to Worship him because angeles never worshiped a human but tho he was human he still remained God Hebrews 1:6 the father lifted his status back up and gave him the name Jesus which they share philippians 2:9-10 and when he was lifted back up his status once again was better than the Angels Hebrews 1:4

  14. Its interesting how the description starts out that Jesus was created a little lower than the angles and then He was the Angle of the Lord. Jesus was begotten just like you and me with the exception that his father the only one who is truly God John 17;3 literally had a son thru a virgin named Mary. He didn’t exist just as we didn’t exist before our human births other wise we wouldn’t be human. There is only One God and that is the father the only one who possesses immortality I Tim 6:14-15 Jesus worships the same God as you and I do the father.

    • wwpg

      if jesus did not pre-exist, then how do you explain the gospel of john chapter 1?

      John 1King James Version (KJV)

      1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

      2 The same was in the beginning with God.

      3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

      4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

      5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

      jesus is the word of god, and it says the word was WITH god, and that all things were made by him

  15. But my question is,not answered. Can it be answered throu you. DID JESUS CHRIST HAVE A NAME IN HEAVEN BEFOR DESENDING TO EARTH TO TO REPURCHASE US BACK FROM THE SLAYER?

    • ahtilah

      thank you for asking

      Jesus did have a name in heaven before descending to earth, but he did not reveal it,unless it is revealed in these scriptures

      Jacob Wrestles with God
      …28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.”
      29 Then Jacob asked him and said, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And he blessed him there.
      30 So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.”

      Isaiah 9:6
      For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

      The Birth of Samson
      …5 “For behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and no razor shall come upon his head, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel from the hands of the Philistines.” 6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A man of God came to me and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. And I did not ask him where he came from, nor did he tell me his name.
      7 “But he said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and give birth to a son, and now you shall not drink wine or strong drink nor eat any unclean thing, for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'”…

      secret. or, wonderful. It was because his name was secret that Manoah wishes to know it.

      But the angel does not say it was secret, but hoo pailee, `it is wonderful;’ the very character given to the Messiah: ` His name shall be called pailai. Wonderful,

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