Law Is For the Flesh

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We need to correctly define our walk.

Galatians 5

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

There are some who walk in the spirit, but choose to obey the law.

This is ok but not necessary, and it can become a burden, considering there are 613 commandments, not just 10.

There are some who walk in the flesh, and choose to ignore the law, claiming they are in the spirit when they are not.

These people are deceived and in rebellion, and need to repent.

The law is designed for them, to teach, and to guide them into righteous behavior, and hopefully into a walk in the spirit.

If you are walking in the spirit, you will automatically obey whatever laws are relevant to the situation you are in.

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Acts of flesh – if you are guilty of ANY of these, then you are walking in the flesh

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;

20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions

21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. Gal 5:19-21

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Fruit of the Spirit – you need to demonstrate ALL of these, not just a few, to be in the spirit

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal 5: 22-24

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Sowing and reaping spiritually

Galatians 6

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

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So, if you are truly, 100% walking in the Spirit, then obeying the law is not compulsory, because obeying God will be  joy to you, and you will seek to please Him automatically.

But, if you are walking in the flesh, then the law is there for you to obey, and learn from, until you can have a change of heart, and walk in the spirit.


55 Responses to “Law Is For the Flesh”

  1. […] here for […]

  2. 2~14~2019 on Yahweh’s Green Earth Psalm 24:1
    Yahshua the Son of Yahweh Returns VERY SOON! PRAY NOW to be SAVED and SEALED in THEM. Revelation 14:1
    HalleluYah! Hebrew: “Praise ye Yah!”

    The Bible has many verses about Yahweh’s laws. One of them from King David is in Psalm 105:43 – 45: “And He brought forth His people with joy, and His chosen with gladness: And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labor of the people, That they might observe His statutes, and keep His laws. HalleluYah.” Holy Name Bible

    The Jewish people kept/keep reminders of His laws in front of their eyes. If important to them, then I believe it is vital for us today.
    Concerning what we REAP? I used to tell my children that whatever we sow will usually return to us “with interest”.

    ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

  3. Good article. This needs to be taught continually. When they had the laws in Israel, God said to repeat them continually and to chew on and meditate on them so that they got into your heart and were not just in your head.

    “This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you[c] shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success” (Joshua 1:8).

    Those who are born of the Spirit now have that Law in their hearts and desire to do it. Many people don’t have God’s Law in their hearts and don’t desire to obey God because of that, because we value the things in our hearts, and whatever we value we hold in our hearts. If there was more teaching on how to value God’s Word or His Law, there would be more christians who had an actual living relationship with God. As it is, there is a lot more teaching on how to get more and how to keep what you already have than there is on meditating on God’s Word and awakening His Law (ie. the desire to do His will) in your heart.

    As the Bible makes clear, God wants the Law (His WORD) not in outward religious works but in our hearts so that we then have a desire to do His WILL as it was with Jesus: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, ‘Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, oh my God, and Your law is within my heart” (Psalm 40:6-8).

  4. This is rather convoluted.
    If you just understood Galatians 4:21-25. then you know that the old Mosaic Law covenant is represented by Ishmael and that Isaac represents the new covenant. Then you could apply this to the Gospel page and realize that most of what you say there is convoluted too.

    The Mosaic Law is for the unrighteous (1 Timothy 1:9.) not those that have been given the free gift of righteousness.

    By the way… Who is “Yahshua”?
    The spelling of the Lord’s Name in Hebrew would be Yod-Shin-Vav- Ayin and be transliterated as “Yeshua”.

    • I know that you will not agree with me, but please hear me out.
      Ask yourself, why do you think that you have had all of these dreams over the years of “Not being Called”, or basically, of being “Left Behind”? What I believe happened with you, is unfortunately the same thing that happens with many others.

      Initially when you started reading scripture you sought out truth and knowledge. But during the course of that journey you unknowingly began to formulate “your own theories and what made sense to you”.
      Then, because we are human and have what is called a “conformation bias”, over the years you started to adopt and apply other theories from man, (whether they happened to be true or not) simply because they confirmed what you happened to personally believe in yourself.

      Hence, like many, you have more or less developed your own religion comprised of what you think God’s Word may mean, rather than what God’s Word is really saying.

      The only way we can truly understand scripture is to ask God for that wisdom (James 1:5.).
      Then after we ask, we have to be patient and wait, because God will only provide that knowledge on His own timing and when He sees fit. This is why we can read a passage of scripture a hundred times over and over again and then one day “see” something that we have never noticed before. This only happens because God had chosen to reveal what had always been there to us, through the Spirit.

      However, this also means that we must have an open heart and be willing to accept what God reveals to us and what His Word is really saying, and maybe toss what we happen to believe in the garbage.
      And many have difficulty in doing that because the “flesh fights against the Spirit” (Galatians 5:17.) and their ego gets in the way.

      But if you think that the Mosaic Law is still in effect for anything else other than for “God’s Righteous Judgment”, then you’re a Galatian.

    • 5~16~2020 Happy Sabbath on Yahweh’s Earth, Psalm 24:1.
      Yahshua the Son of Yahweh Returns VERY SOON! PRAY NOW to be SAVED and SEALED in THEM. Revelation 14:1 HalleluYah! Hebrew: “Praise ye Yah!”

      Mike, Yahweh’s Commandments are for everyone who wants to be blessed by Him. They were never done away with NOT even by His Son Yahshua’s death (for us!) He kept Yahweh’s commandments while here on earth. Yahshua the Messiah said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”John 14:15
      Yahshua is His Name because He said, “I come in My Father’s Name.” John 5:43 The name Yeshua does NOT contain His Father’s Name at all. So, it cannot be the Name of Yahweh’s Son.
      Yahshua’s ancestor, King Solomon, wrote in Proverb 28:9: “He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.”

      ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

      • What a shame.

        You know enough to think that you are right, but you don’t know enough to know that you are wrong. You will find out in the end.

        However regarding being saved, I am a “Child of Promise” thank you.

        • END of what? Are you saying that the Bible verses I quoted are WRONG? It’s the believers in the Father and the Son who receive the promises.

          • “Yes”, I am saying that you have taken what is written out of context, and what you and the administrator believe is simply wrong.

            You don’t understand what Paul is saying in Galatians 3:3.;
            “Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

            God hasn’t revealed to you that Paul is saying;
            “Are you so foolish that after you have begun your new journey in the Holy Spirit, you are now going to continue in that journey and attempt to become perfect by religiously observing the Mosaic Law?”

            So since you don’t understand that, you don’t understand the Gospel, and the both of you are practicing and teaching a different Gospel (or your own religion) and one that is contrary to what Paul taught.
            And Paul warns people about this in Galatians 1:6-10.

            Whether you believe me or not is irrelevant. You’ll find out in the end.

            • Mike, it seems now to me that YOU have misconstrued Saul’s writings. (His name was never changed to Paul, a demeaning nickname applied by his possible enemies.) He was a zealous Jew who had previously persecuted those Jews who believed that Yahshua was the promised Messiah. After choosing to believe in Yahshua he was telling the Jews that following the laws was not now the means for their salvation. This is because Yahshua’s coming and dyeing for them WAS! He fulfilled the law. They now had to believe in Yahshua who came to them first. And, because they believed in Him as the Son of Yahweh, they would then gladly keep Yahweh’s commandments.

              ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

              • Well, I’m afraid that you are totally lost, have no real idea as to what God’s Word is saying, and have created for yourself a convoluted religion that is contrary to God’s Word.

                Good luck with that.

                Being a Trump supporter you have already demonstrated your inability to determine and discern what truth is in the physical realm, so I certainly didn’t expect for you to be able to determine and discern what truth is in the spiritual realm.

                • WOW! Are you pointing the finger MUCH? Just remember that when you do point it at someone like me, you have three fingers pointing back right at YOU! Luck? This word and the pagan name God both come from the ancient Babylonian idol of fortune. Sadly, you also lack political understanding. President Donald J. Trump is the ONLY American president that has recognized the nation (NOT state!) of Israel. He also moved its capital to Jerusalem which other presidents failed to do. Sadly, Mike, from what you have posted on this thread, YOU should expect to be lost!

                  ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

                • mike

                  as a Turmp hater, it is assumed you are a liberal democrat.

                  so why are you on a religious website like this?

                  are you here to troll?

                  people who follow the leading of the holy spirit will also obey YHVH to their best ability

                  we are saved by grace, but it does not mean we violate YHVHs moral law.

                  the ritual laws for atonement have been satisfied by Yahshua and do not need to be kept

                  also man made ritual laws do not have to be kept either

  5. Correction

    ““Are you so foolish that after you have begun your new journey in the Holy Spirit, ARE you now going to continue in that journey and attempt to become perfect by religiously observing the Mosaic Law?”

  6. Marianne, so you and Janya not only share in the same laughable made up religion, where Saul’s name was never replaced with the name Paul, and as Christian’s we must still religiously observe the Mosaic Law, as well as the utilization of the man made name of Yahshua, but you also share in honoring a corrupt liar for your president.

    Someone who is the laughingstock of the world.

    Nevertheless, what would that moron recognizing the nation of Israel have to do with anything? The children of the flesh are not the children of God.

    • Mike, you come on here trashing Bible verses, Yahweh’s Commandments, and His chosen people the Jews with Israel. From what EVIL place are YOU coming from? You should really consider WHERE you are going! And, AGAIN, we are NOT pagan Christians like YOU. You can’t even get my name straight. lol

      ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

  7. You know, if either of you had actually asked Father God for His wisdom, rather than creating a religion of your own (based upon your human “conformational bias”) then you would know that I didn’t make that last comment up. And you would also know the exact verse that I was referring to when I said “The children of the flesh are not the children of God” too.

    Because that is exactly what Saul or Paul (or whoever you wish to call Yeshua’s chosen messenger – Acts 9:15.) wrote down in the book of Romans.
    Trump is the minion of evil not me.
    Unfortunately you will only become aware of that, and of my motivation here at the end. And by then it will be too late.

    I apologize for spelling your name wrong Jayna. It was a typo.

    • Mike, the reason we believe the truth and our saved by it NOW is because we DID ask Yahweh for it. You are “spiritually blind” and cannot see this. The blind cannot guide those that can see! lol You reject the keeping of Yahweh’s Commandments so you do not love Yahweh. That’s YOUR choice NOT a typo. Sadly, our message to you may be the last sign post you read on your road to “The Lake of Fire.”

      ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

    • mike

      Saul is his real birth name. Paul was his given Roman name

      I do not consider any democrat a christian, it is contrary to their lack of moral values.

      so I do not believe you are sincere about your “religious faith”

      • Thank you for providing the obvious regarding Saul/Paul’s name.

        No matter who you may think that you are, you are NOT God the Father, so what you happen to consider or believe regarding my Faith or Salvation, is simply irrelevant. (Matthew 7:1,2.)

        As a matter of fact, in spite of your sureness, I am not a Democrat either. I’m not even an American, so you would be wrong regarding that assumption as well.

        However as a Christian, it is obvious to me that Trump is an agent of evil and a creator of chaos. And you will find out all of this in the end.

        He who laughs last, laughs best. 🙂

  8. Receiving the Truth through the Spirit regarding God’s Word is contingent upon one thing… that being, that YHVH knows that you are more than willing to toss whatever you may already happen to believe in the garbage. That He knows that you have more faith, belief and trust in Him than you do in yourself.

    Ego and pride has always been the antithesis to a surrendering contrite heart, and seeking conformation from Him for your error, will not lead to the desired results.

    God knows my motivation for coming here, and I did not come here for you.
    However, during the course of our discussion, exact verses to reference and scriptural truth has been provided, though it has been veiled within the composition. Yet you are the one that chooses not to see.

    Father God is the Potter and we are just clay. And as there was only a remnant of Israel, there will also only be a remnant of the Church.
    You have sealed your own fate. May God have mercy on your souls.

    P.S. You laughed at me regarding my typo of your name. You have written “the reason we believe the truth and OUR saved by it”. I think that you meant to write “ARE” there instead.

    He who laughs last, laughs best. as “Isaac” would imply. 🙂

    • Thank you Mike for the correct spelling. I believe that this is the first time this has happened to me. How refreshing! Yes there is a remnant of true believers. And, NONE of THEM will choose to remain in the Christian Church. Hopefully Marianne and I are SEALED by Yahweh, Revelation 14:1. Mike, it seems to me that YOU have made other plans.

      ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

      • Quick question:
        Do you believe that the called by God believer’s in Yeshua are “grafted into” Israel?

        • The called (out) of Yahweh (NOT God, a Babylonian idol) believers in Yahshua (Yeshua cannot be the Son’s Name.) are grafted into the olive tree which represents Yahweh’s Israel, Romans 11:23.

          ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

          • Okay then, as delusional as that may sound to me, YOU are saying that Father God sent His Messiah Son Yeshua to die for our sins, so that the Apostle’s that first believed in Him could then be “grafted back into” the unbelieving, unsaved, unforgiven, profane, unrighteous, still in their sin, children of flesh Israel, that cannot see or enter into God’s Kingdom that they should have just been separated and sanctified from.

            And then I as a Gentile who also believes in Yeshua as my Saviour, I’m then “grafted into” the unbelieving, unsaved, unforgiven, profane, unrighteous, still in their sin, children of flesh Israel, that cannot see or enter into God’s Kingdom too.

            My, that sounds like a one heck of a deal.
            I guess if there’s a rapture, since we are all one cozy family grafted together, then we will all get to go together whether the Jews happen to believe or not.
            And if that’s the case… then what was the point of Yeshua’s death?

            You are just making this up as we go right? 🙂

    • mike

      if you want to come here, then be nice

      if people use a speaker to dictate comments, misspellings can occur.

  9. Okay then, as delusional as that may sound to me, YOU are saying that Father God (YHVH) sent His Messiah Son Yeshua to die for our sins, so that the Apostle’s that first believed in Him could then be “grafted back into” the unbelieving, unsaved, unforgiven, profane, unrighteous, still in their sin, children of flesh Israel, that cannot see or enter into God’s Kingdom that they should have just been separated and sanctified from.

    And then I as a Gentile, who also believes in Yeshua as my Saviour, I’m then “grafted into” the unbelieving, unsaved, unforgiven, profane, unrighteous, still in their sin, children of flesh Israel, that cannot see or enter into God’s Kingdom too.

    My, that sounds like a one heck of a deal.
    I guess if there’s a rapture, since we are all one cozy family grafted together, then we will all get to go together whether the Jews happen to believe or not.
    And if that’s the case… then what was the point of Yeshua’s death?

    You are just making this up as you go right? 🙂

    • Sorry It didn’t appear to post the first time.
      One read should be sufficient, (although I suspect that you’ll have problems answering it.)

      • Mike, no problems with answering when it come to my faith in Yahweh and His Son Yahshua. However, it seems to me that YOU are the one making things up as YOU are going along. You are so much against Yahweh’s Commandments. This may be because you lack understanding of Bible truth and history. The original Children of Israel WERE under the law (The Old Covenant). It was their path to redemption and keeping it pointed to the coming of Yahshua (The New Covenant). Why do you keep writing that Yahweh’s Laws were for the unsaved? Mike, YOU really do need to read more carefully! I wrote that the olive tree is the Israel of Yahweh. The apostles (as a whole) were already a part of this tree because they HAD accepted Yahshua as the Messiah. You tend to mix everything up. Is THAT on purpose? IT’S NOT GOOD!
        About you being “grafted” into Yahweh’s olive tree. Mike, how can YOU be? You keep saying that Yahweh’s Commandments should NOT be kept. Yahweh said, “If you love me, keep My commandments.” You deny His true Name and that of His Son Yahshua. A rapture? Scripture does not teach such an event. The saved saints of Revelation 14 are “sealed” NOT raptured! Sadly, Mike, it seems to me that you are not going to be one of these saints.

        ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

  10. Well fortunately for me, what you happen to think in respect to reality and God’s (‘Elohiym’s) Word is irrelevant, and it doesn’t concern me in the least.

    But if you and Marianne share these same beliefs then the heading to this website should read…..

    “Marianne’s page; Where the word of God is completely inaccurate, mostly made up, and taken ridiculously out of context.”

    He who laughs last, laughs best, and You have been quite entertaining.
    But unfortunately, you are still going to find out that you’re wrong in the end.

    הֱיה שלום

    • Hi, Mike. I came in on this conversation and skimmed through it. I don’t understand what you are saying after I read the original article and find nothing wrong with it.

      Marianne wrote, and I think the article can be summarized, “If you are walking in the spirit, you will automatically obey whatever laws are relevant to the situation you are in.” The Bible not only bears witness to this from OT to NT but also natural Creation bears witness to it as well. What part of the article do you disagree with?

    • Mike, you seem to continue to point your finger at Marianne. You say that her Biblical understanding is completely inaccurate, mostly made up and misconstrued. Again, you have three fingers pointing right back at YOU. Then you wrote that you don’t even know what I am even writing about.That is understandable. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. If you do not have Yahweh’s Spirit, how can YOU understand anything? However, NONE of this is anything to LAUGH about! Mike, I seriously doubt that YOU will be laughing at the end of this age.

      ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

    • mike

      my page is not like that, people can have different views as they search for truth or communicate it

      cute hebrew

      goodbye 🙂

  11. Hi Snoopy,

    Marianne believes that the 613 (+ or -) Mosaic Laws (Taryag Mitzvot) are still applicable for believers in Yeshua and therefore must still be religiously observed. If you ask her she will respond with “Because I love God, I will keep His Commandments”. The problem with that is, that God’s Commandments consist of more than just the Mosaic Law.

    Paul clearly teaches us in Galatians 4:21-5:1. that Ishmael symbolically represents God’s first Covenant (which like Ishmael was cast out) and Isaac symbolically represents God’s second Covenant where Isaac replaced Ishmael and received all of his fathers inheritance.

    I also suspect that Marianne would say that Gentiles are “grafted into” Israel, although she didn’t respond to the question. However it has been my experience over the years that most Mosaic Law Keepers hold to that point of view, and they don’t believe in the promise of liberty.

    I’m not really sure what that Jayna is even talking about?
    It’s quite comically to say the least.
    However, there’s no need for me to be here anymore, so I’ll wish you luck in discerning God’s truth if you choose to stay here yourself.

    • mike

      I never said this about the 613 laws. so you are lying. if you keep this up I will block you.
      sarcasm and false accusation is unchristian

    • You’re complicating what Marianne simplified. She didn’t say that christians should keep 613 laws. It appears clear to me that she’s only repeating what the Bible already says which is that those who are truly saved or born again or “in Christ” will have a new, natural, and innate desire to keep God’s Law.

      The Bible talks about ‘law’ and ‘laws’ often, but not every mention is talking about the same kind of law. There are different kinds of laws that God has created– too many to try to list them all here, but here are four that routinely show up in the Bible:

      1.) The natural laws: these dictate everything that happens in the natural realm and are most known within one of their many frames called ‘laws of physics’.

      2.) The spiritual laws: these control or govern immaterial principles such as generational blessings and curses.

      3.) The Mosaic laws: these encompass both the ten commandments given to Moses as well as all the other regulations that were given to Moses.

      4.) The Law of Grace: this Law is ‘captain and commander’ over all the rest; it is the greatest law, is superior to all laws from the past and all laws possible in the future, and is what is at work when the miraculous (eg. redemption through the Blood, raising the dead, healing the sick, etc.) supersedes the natural order of things.

      The Law of Grace was instituted by Jesus after He died, rose, ascended, and sent the Holy Spirit to the upper room. This is what Marianne is talking about. Under Grace, people no longer need to subject themselves to any of the other laws; however, if one is truly under Grace (ie. “in Christ”), then he will subject himself to what is good and right: everyone is subject to laws of physics and other laws God created, but in Christ you no longer serve those laws. I know that’s hard to follow. The Bible calls the Law of Grace by several names. Romans 8:1-2 shares one of those names and also kind of summarizes what Marianne is saying here:

      “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.”

      Those who are “in Christ” will walk “according to the Spirit”. Since the Spirit leads people to obey God, He will lead those who are “in Christ” to obey God. And obedience to God isn’t about following rules and regulations and customs and traditions; it’s a step-by-step walk, only clearly defined around the borders but left unclear and to the revealing of the Holy Sprit in the middle. In short, if you aren’t willing to obey God’s revealed Word, you will have a hard time knowing what His unrevealed Word is saying. The Spirit leads people to obey God, not to follow laws; but while obeying God, those people will also be submitting themselves to laws. You can’t understand this if you skip or neglect the primary thing(s) God wants you to do, because His revelation (ie. understanding of what He says) comes a little at a time to those who are obedient. Religious people and christians think they gain knowledge by reading the Bible, but that isn’t true. satan knew the Bible best and still fell into the trap of crucifying Jesus. God doesn’t teach christians and religious people who run around with their own convictions and beliefs; He teaches those who obey Him ‘step by step’. Consider this:

      “Whom will [He] teach knowledge? And whom will [He] make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little” (Isaiah 28).

      God teaches ‘a little at a time’, not from reading or studying the Bible as Jesus ‘taught’ the religious elders in the temple at the age of twelve. God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him, and He teaches those whose hearts are obedient. If you don’t have a heart to obey God, then like everyone else through history (from OT to NT and now) you will find it very hard to understand God’s Word and spiritual things, even when they are very simple and clear.

      • Snoopy, I’ll reply below.

        • Mike, well said on many of your responses– maybe all, but not being face to face can make communication difficult. I believe the issue here is what Marianne meant by what she wrote. I’ll respond to your comments one at a time.

          1.) There are indeed some who walk in the Spirit and still decide to keep the Law. But it depends on what Marianne means by that and what you mean. The NT is pretty clear that there is no need for the Mosaic Law anymore, and the natural Sabbath (Saturday observance) was scrubbed from the record in this age of Grace but permissible for those who still wish to keep it in that way (and included every day, since Christ, as important as Saturday for those who wish to observe them specially) since Jesus Himself is now– every day, not just on Saturday– our Rest.

          2.) I spoke about several laws because I’m not sure which law(s) anyone is talking about. The Bible has a brilliant way of saying the same word twice or more but using those words differently. One of those words is “Lord”; another is “love”; another is “law”; and there are many more. Of course one can’t walk in Christ and in Moses or in the Spirit and in the Law simultaneously. The religious Jews hated Paul and Apollos– both Jews– for stating this unequivocally. Again, that doesn’t seem like what Marianne was saying as the Bible clearly says it’s impossible for the Spirit and the Law to walk together since they are not agreed. Everything you’ve said about Grace vs. Law is true. Again, I was under the impression that Marianne was saying the same thing you’re clarifying here.

          3.) What applies to what I said about Grace applies to everything else: you can only talk about one thing at a time (or one facet of a thing at a time). Yes, Grace was instituted long before Jesus came to earth. But it was not instituted as Law until after Jesus came and left. The best way to explain this in one sentence is using COVID-19: COVID-19 forced new ‘regulations’ that are not YET laws but that might later become laws. Grace was always present (the NT talks about this, usually using the word “faith” instead); but Grace was not yet Law in the time of the OT but only after the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. Only in the OT do you see it said on many occasions, “Such and such found Grace (favor) in the sight of such and such.” As you said, it began with Noah who found Grace in God’s sight when everyone else was corrupt. Looking with spiritual eyes especially through the OT, you can often see when someone has found Grace in God’s eyes. The Holy Spirit seems to illuminate them, and they tend to just stand out from the pages. Some examples: Enoch, Noah, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, and many more. God had a special intimate love (Grace, favor) for them. When Moses pleaded for God to make distinguish Israel from other nations by making His favor (Grace) noticeable on them, God responded, “I will do the very thing you have asked, for you have found Grace in My sight, and I know you by name” (Exodus 33:17). You see that special love (Grace, favor) on many people in the OT. But while Moses (and many others in the OT) found Grace in God’s sight, Grace wasn’t manifest in the form of Law then. However, the Grace I was talking about is the Law of Grace. Grace was not law in the OT; when the Holy Spirit came, Grace was instituted as law or ‘a new way of living’. That’s why I mentioned the miraculous under Grace; the miraculous was present in the OT, so one can’t place miracles under ‘Grace’ and say Grace is only in the NT. However, the Law of Grace is only in the NT, not in the OT. Making Grace law makes it binding and authoritative, something Grace was not in the OT but now is.

          4.) You were born of the Spirit on March 12, 1972. I wasn’t even born yet. But I was born of the Spirit on March 28, 1998. You said I contradicted myself by saying that spiritual things are easy to understand (after having said they aren’t easy to understand). I didn’t contradict myself at all. Everything in all Creation– and this applies to God as well who is not created– is both simple and complex. Everything. (I believe God gave me a deep hunger to ‘discover’ and apprehend this area of ‘contradiction’.) On the surface, males are complex; a little further in and males are simple; and then further in (where few go) males are complex. Females are the opposite: simple on the surface; complex further in; and simple furthest in (where few go). Nothing exists that is only simple or complex; everything is both, even the smallest grain of sand or the minutest molecule. This isn’t too hard to grasp; God Himself is both simple and complex, and all Creation proceeded from Him. We know that whatever one creates, draws, builds, paints, or ‘creates’ will have the person’s signature on it– not their writing necessarily but their nature or personality. Therefore, since God is both simple and complex, all Creation is also both simple and complex, because that seeming cotradiction IS God’s signature. He wrote the Bible in such a way that only those who really desire to know and seek will find. He is a contradiction on the surface: He is Three but One; He is masculine but feminine; He gives life and also destroys life; He is God and Man; and the list of ‘contradictions’ is endless. (That’s why christians should never argue or debate with atheists and people who say the Bible is full of contradictions. It IS! Only the Spirit can unwind and show them to be perfect. Atheists and debaters don’t have the Spirit so they’re right.) The Bible is REPLETE with ‘‘contradictions’ from Genesis to Revelation. One of the best examples might be here: 1Chronicles 21 begins, “Now satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel” while 2Samuel 24 begins, “The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them saying, ‘Go number Israel and Judah.’” Both of these are the exact same event (read both chapters in their entirety), but one says satan moved David to take a census of Israel while the other says God moved David to do so. A read of the consequences of the census quickly show that satan was the one who moved David (just by use of logic); but why does it say God did it? Is it a contradiction? Yes, but only on the surface. On the surface, it is complex; but the revelation of the Holy Spirit makes it simple (ie. makes both records whole, united, one story rather than two). God both hides and reveals things– a seeming contradiction which is CENTRAL to His Nature. In Him (and in all Creation), both simplicity and complexity are woven into a non-contradicting and perfect union.

          Good discussion. However, these kinds of things can’t really be discussed in this format. There’s a reason that, if God had His way, fellowship was always meant to be ‘face to face’. Paul said to the Romans, “I long to visit you so I can impart to you some spiritual gift that will help you grow strong in the Lord” (Romans 1:11). Impartation only happens in person. And John said to a house church in his charge, “I have much to write to you, but I do not want to use paper and ink. Instead, I hope to visit you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2John 1:12). Wishing you well as well.

          • Hi Snoopy,

            Hopefully my response to you here will be sufficient enough to get the answer to your question.

            One of the first things that you say is;
            “I believe the issue here is what Marianne meant by what she wrote.”
            And I completely agree that “what she meant” by what she wrote, is exactly what the “issue” is.

            Also, please keep in mind that I’ve contended with “Law Keepers” for many years and you become quite proficient in recognizing the things that they say. For example, what I had pointed out to you previously in my last post where she says “There are some who walk in the spirit, but choose to obey the law” and then says “This is ok but not necessary”, because you can’t “WALK in the Spirit” and “WALK in the Mosaic Law” at the same time. As you are aware, it would be like “Walking in Grace” and Not “walking in grace” at the same time.

            So because “what she meant” is the “issue”, I picked out a few of the things that you had written and copied and pasted them below.

            You wrote, “The NT is pretty clear that there is no need for the Mosaic Law anymore”.

            That statement would be ½ right.
            I would agree that true believers no longer require the Mosaic Law for either righteousness and/or reconciliation, because through Yeshua’s Finished Work, true believers have received the free gift of God’s righteousness and reconciliation.

            However, although all true believers have been “redeemed” from the Mosaic Law (Galatians 4:4,5.), the Mosaic Law will still be the instrument that God will use for His righteous judgement, (Romans 3:19,20.).

            But though you and I would agree that it is “pretty clear” that for true believers there is no need for the Mosaic Law anymore, Marianne would disagree. Simply just ask her.

            She will respond with something like, “Because I love God, I keep His Commandments” because she, like all “Law Keepers”, has misconstrued John 14:15., 14:21. and 15:10. as referring to the Mosaic Law.

            You wrote, “Of course one can’t walk in Christ and in Moses or in the Spirit and in the Law simultaneously.”
            Yet that is exactly what Law Keepers try to do.

            Do you think that attempting to WALK in both simultaneously, is the same Gospel that God has written in your heart?
            If it isn’t, then logically “Law Keepers” would follow a different gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9.)

            Snoopy, I believe that you have been circumcised in your heart with the Spirit by God (Romans 2:28,29.) and I don’t think for one minute that you’re in danger of “falling back” to the Mosaic Law.

            But for you to receive the answers to what the “issues” are above, I suggest that you simply ask Marianne outright. She has said on this site, that she doesn’t believe that there was ever a new covenant, and that there was only a renewed covenant instead.

            What “Law Keepers” have difficulty with, is their inability to truly understand faith. Many of them will use Romans 3:31. in an attempt to prove their belief and position.
            “Do we then make void the (Mosaic) law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the (Mosaic) law.”

            Unfortunately, (because of their “conformational bias”) they think Paul is saying that the Mosaic Law hasn’t become void because of “faith” but it’s because of “faith” that we then establish the Mosaic Law.

            They don’t understand that the written Mosaic Law such as the “Ten Commandments” had to be written down so that the firstborn children of Israel (Exodus 4:22.) would remember them.

            For example there is Exodus 20:3. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.”

            What Paul is saying is, that as a second born of Spirit child of promise that walks in the Spirit rather than the Mosaic Law, and by being circumcised in our heart by God (rather than by the hands of men), there is no possible way that true believers would ever place any god before Father God, therefore hence, we “establish” the Law.

            Having said that, I would like to leave you with something before I leave. Whatever your name is, (which isn’t the same name that you will have in God’s Kingdom by the way) the passion that you have for God’s Word and His Truth reminds me a bit of myself in my youth.

            If I could leave you with some wisdom that can normally only be attained over time, it would be this.
            If you believe that you have been the recipient of some Spirit revealed wisdom while studying God’s Word, the first thing that you have to do is not to try to confirm what you’ve just experienced, but try to contradict and disprove it instead.

            If you cannot find anything in scripture that would contradict that revelation, then it more than likely has some merit, and God may add to that knowledge later on when you least expect it, and He sees fit.

            But because we as man have what is called a “conformational bias” mans “folly” can be confirmed quite easily in God’s Word.

            May God Bless your path in your service to Him.

  12. Oh and Snoopy,
    The reason that I care is because what they are preaching and believe in, is not the same Gospel that Paul taught.
    Paul who was chosen to teach by Yeshua Himself (Acts 9:15.).

  13. Snoopy,
    It is impossible for me to concisely address and reply to all of what you have posted in this format. So please allow for me to acknowledge and respond to some of what you say.

    First, her Commentary begins with “We need to correctly define our WALK” then Galatians 5:18. is quoted. Then the statement “There are some who walk in the spirit, but choose to obey the law” is made.

    The problem with this is, you can’t “WALK in the Spirit” and “WALK in the Mosaic Law” at the same time. And the fact that she then said “This is ok but not necessary, and it can become a burden, considering there are 613 commandments, not just 10” means…

    1) That she is referring specifically to the Mosaic Law, (so I’m not sure why you went off tangent and decided to introduce “natural” or physical laws?) Nor am I sure if you are even aware that anything directed to man by the Divine is Law or Tôwrâh, whether it was written within Genesis or Revelation.

    2) By then saying “This is ok but not necessary” means that she doesn’t understand that “Paul didn’t think it was okay”, and that she has misinterpreted the whole point of Paul’s epistle.

    “Why” you can’t walk in the Spirit and in the Mosaic Law at the same time is because it’s like trying to be Isaac and Ishmael, Saved and Unsaved, Righteous and Unrighteous or Clean and Unclean at the same time too.

    The Mosaic Law was initially provided for mans “righteousness – tsĕdaqah” (Deuteronomy 6:25.) because without man being righteous or being perceived as “he ought to be” by Father God, reconciliation is impossible.

    That is why “Christ is the end of the (Mosaic) Law for “righteousness” to everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4.) and why “Yeshua is the way and the truth and the life and no one “comes to the Father” except through Him, (John 14:6.)

    Nevertheless, you then mention “Grace”, (although it was instituted thousands of years before Yeshua). The Hebrew masculine noun חֵ֖ן transliterated as “chen” and defined as “favour, grace and acceptance” was first recorded in Genesis 6:8. and it was relevant to how YHVH saw Noah, and it was a foreshadowing.

    As you continue writing you say “I know that’s hard to follow.” Well, I was Born of the Spirit on March 12th. 1972 so I’ll try to follow along okay. 🙂

    You then mention Romans 8:1,2.
    Please allow for me to quote those verses in the context that Paul is expressing them in;

    “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the (Mosaic) law of sin and death.”

    And if you’re not sure that “(Mosaic) law” should be included in the above, then just ask God for wisdom and read verses 8:3,4..
    What Law had God provided to mankind which was so ineffective for righteousness and reconciliation that God had to send His own Son?

    In my opinion you are on the right track about quite a lot.
    For example, you are aware that God through the Spirit “reveals” what He wishes to reveal to us in His timing, if our hearts are sincere and contrite.
    I spoke about this in my post on the “Gospel” page.

    However, you then contradict yourself by saying that “spiritual things, are very simple and clear”.

    Keep studying. Keep relying on the Spirit rather than trying to figure things out for yourself. God “hides” things in His Word constantly (Proverbs 25:2.)

    For example, If you are aware that Isaac is a foreshadowing “damah” (Hosea 12:10.) of Yeshua in Genesis 22:1-19. then ask Father God “why” Isaac didn’t die, and “why” עָקַד the root verb `aqad is only utilized once within the Tanakh, because it is totally relevant to the topic of this discussion.

    Wishing you well.
    And be careful, because there is only One Faith, One Shepherd and One Gospel. Take Care & God Bless.

    • Hey, Mike, I’ll respond under this comment so the comments don’t start getting harder to read (it’s usually late when I answer these so if there is run-on or some confusion, that’s possibly why). You said, “Keep in mind that I’ve contended with ‘Law Keepers’ for many years and you become quite proficient in recognizing the things that they say. For example, what I had pointed out to you previously in my last post where she says ‘There are some who walk in the spirit, but choose to obey the law’ and then says ‘This is ok but not necessary’, because you can’t ‘WALK in the Spirit’ and ‘WALK in the Mosaic Law’ at the same time. As you are aware, it would be like ‘Walking in Grace’ and Not ‘walking in grace’ at the same time.”
      This again goes back to what Marianne meant by that, so Marianne, if you read this please clarify. The fact is that it’s not always easy to understand what a person means by what they say. Peter wrote of Paul’s writings, “Consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures” (2Peter 3:15-16). Paul’s writings seem to contradict themselves as different books of the Bible seem to contradict each other (eg. Paul’s doctrine of salvation by Grace alone vs. James’s doctrine of walking out your salvation). The Bible says that those who walk in the Spirit can also ‘add’ some of the Law to their walk and still walk in the Spirit (eg. Romans 14); but understanding what it’s saying isn’t necessarily as simple as what it’s in fact saying. This is where wisdom, patience with one another, spiritual discernment, and the Holy Spirit are important. In Acts 15:6-29, we see that wisdom, patience, spiritual discernment, and the Holy Spirit are important in fleshing out or giving understanding on certain issues.

      You said that it is only half right that there is no need for the Mosaic Law and referenced Romans 3:19-20. This is one of the areas that ‘online fellowship’ totally bombs– the area of clarity. The way I ‘meant’ what I said is actually 100% true. And I believe the way you meant what you said on the same issue is also 100% true. The Bible talks about many different ways by which people will be judged. There are too many different examples for one to choose just one and say that will be the only one. However, the Mosaic Law existed before God gave it to Moses; it was a spiritual law– just like salvation through faith existed, primarily in Abraham, before Jesus ever came to earth. For instance, God told Moses that the sins of the parents would pass to following generations. God was not making new laws; He was legally instituting (or publicly passing as law) what was already law/truth but not publicly (ie. in the sprit realm). Look for example back at Abraham who lied twice that his wife Sarah was his sister in order to evade persecution and possible death (Genesis 12:10-20, Genesis 20). Then follow the story to Isaac who was recorded lying at least once and saying that Rebekah was his sister and not his wife in order to evade persecution and possible death (Genesis 26:1-10). I doubt that Abraham, a godly man, advised Isaac to follow his wrong example if Isaac were to find himself in a similar situation. Maybe Abraham told Isaac the story, but I believe what was really at work was a generational sin which went from Abraham to Isaac– a spiritual law which God then made ‘legal law’ when He gave the ‘Mosaic Law’ to Moses. The area of spiritual laws really is tricky, similar to the way it is on earth. Spiritual laws and the operation of that realm are vast. God and lucifer, for instance, can have interaction in regard to laws or judgments on people on earth. People normally don’t think this is possible, but it’s recorded in the Bible in several places– namely regarding Job (Job 1-2), King Ahab (1Kings 22), and Peter and the apostles (Luke 22:31). It can be difficult to make sense of this area in a few written exchanges.

      I would like to ask Marianne here what she believes regarding ‘the laws’. Loving God moves a person to keep His commandments; but ‘commandments’ Jesus was talking about there weren’t the commands written in stone but the commands written in the heart. God did not write 10 + 613 laws on the reborn heart. Rather, He ‘boiled all laws’ down to three commandments (as Jesus said, “A new commandment I give you”) which are 1.) “Love the Lord your God”, 2.) “Love one another (believers)”, and 3.) “Love your neighbor as yourself”. All other laws come from these three foundational laws just like all good things come from the Tri-partite God. So, we don’t strive to do what God says in the Bible because we love Him; rather, if we love Him, we will find ourselves keeping the commandments He wants us to keep. Those commands are not many but rather “are not burdensome” (1John 5:3).

      The only gospel God writes on the heart is the Gospel that brings liberty. A new man working to keep old commands does not bring freedom. New wine is put into new wineskins; God doesn’t pour out new wine and then tell people to return to the old. However, putting old commands in a new heart does bring freedom. Birds don’t try to be birds; humans don’t try to be humans; males and females don’t try to be our genders. Rather, we operate as God made us because each of us has a ‘law’ written in our spirits (this is why ‘law’ is a complex area). It is the law of God that makes a male male, a female female, a bird a bird, an animal an animal. Males and females aren’t their gender just because of their body parts; rather, the ‘law’ (ie. identity) God writes in each one is what primarily makes one male or female, etc. (This is why some people say they were born in the wrong body: they ‘think and feel’ like the opposite gender of their body. This, however, isn’t natural or from God but includes demonic deception or/and mind control programming in early childhood wherein a person’s identity is ‘tampered with’, causing confusion. That’s another long story.) Again, the Bible is both clear and inconspicuous in the area of what is old and what is new. Jeremiah 6:16 says, “Stand in the ways and see. Ask for the ancient (old) paths…” Much of the OT follows this line, telling Israel to return to the old ways.. But both the OT and NT also talk about ‘a new path’ as well. So which is it? It’s both.

      As regards law, God made my spirit very sensitive to things, people, places, circumstances, and situations that cause or promote life or death. Because of this, I can sense when there is death in a teaching, doctrine, or belief as well as when there is life. This makes it easy for me to reject ‘law’ that leads to death and to accept the Spirit who leads to life. Jesus said, “The Spirit gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words I speak to you are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63). Jesus said His words were spirit and therefore breathed life into people; I can tell when words or teachings are not breathing life. Law always promotes death. This helps me distinguish “true religion before God the Father” from false, fleshly, or half-baked religion.
      What you said about ‘conformational bias’ and looking for what contradicts what I have learned makes sense. I used to play a little chess (never liked it), and I would play myself. I think that the hardest and toughest practice in a game like chess is to play your own self. Since you are the one thinking on both sides of the board, you can’t really beat yourself. It exposes your bias as you will inevitably begin to gravitate one way or the other. But if you play fairly, then you will be playing from both sides and therefore both sides will usually cancel out each other or end in a stalemate. But playing chess against yourself is very difficult since you have to put away that natural desire to ‘win’ (because you can’t choose one side) and must just play. I think this is similar to what you’re saying about ‘conformational bias’.

      • Marianne,

        You have said; “that you obey the old Mosaic dietary laws because you love God and because as a commandment from God, the dietary laws are still necessary.”

        You have said; Quote, “I do not agree with the gentile instructions as they are written by Paul…there has to be more to it…or it would be irresponsible teaching, to allow gentiles to be ignorant of the 10 commandments, and allow them to break them out of ignorance would be wrong.” End Quote.

        You have said; Quote, “Jesus preached to jewish believers…he did not have to explain the importance of the Torah to them…this was understood….he did not come to abolish the Torah but to fulfill it.
        gentile believers would have to have this explained to them…they did not hear Jesus preach…and had no educational background in Torah…notice that Jesus only had to address the churches in gentile nations in revelation…he had no comments about the church of hebrew believers in Jerusalem.” End Quote.

        You have said; Quote, “if you think following the torah is sin, then you do not understand the bible.” End Quote.

        You have said; Quote, “why don’t you look and read over the old testament commandments, and see if God would really cancel all of them.” End Quote.

        I could go on and on. Copy and paste, copy and paste.

        Tell Snoopy that you haven’t said these things, and remember that God knows full well that you did.

        You say that “you are not under the Mosaic Law but under Grace”, yet you choose to walk in the Mosaic Law rather than Walk in the Spirit.

        That is not the Gospel that Paul taught, and though you do not agree with the gentile instructions as they are written by Paul, Yeshua chose Paul, so that would mean that you don’t agree with who Yeshua chose either.

        Hmmm, that can’t be good. 🙂

        • mike

          your argument or whatever you are trying to say, … is meaningless…if you do not want to understand what I say, I am not going to waste time explaining it over and over.

          you have a religious spirit. try focusing on your own deliverance instead.

          you are still a troll..so I may block you eventually if you do not stop the harassing behavior.

          • 5~25~2020 The American Memorial Day in Honor of WAR
            Yahshua the Prince of PEACE, the Son of Yahweh Returns VERY SOON! PRAY NOW to be SAVED and SEALED in THEM. Revelation 14:1 HalleluYah! Hebrew: “Praise ye Yah!”

            Marianne, I agree with YOU wholeheartedly! We can present the TRUTH but THEY have to choose to believe it. Or, they do NOT have to! They can just keep going their merry way on that road to being LOST. HA! They seem to be very GOOD at THAT!

            ETERNAL SURVIVAL BLESSINGS FOR YAHWEH’S SAINTS!

    • mike

      Jesus said he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. i was referring to the moral law, not rituals. also some of the 613 laws are for our own good, and common sense should dictate which ones they are. I have no intention of offering a bull anytime I want forgiveness. Paul explains that many of the ritual laws were man made.

      • This was why they had the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. And it is also why the churches desperately need authentic apostles and apostolic ministry.

        I won’t write a book trying to explain what the Bible says on this matter which hard areas of our hearts are unable to receive. All our hearts are hardened in different areas, making us able to receive some spiritual truths and unable to receive others.

        The Jerusalem Council was convened to iron out issues concerning the Gentiles and their cultural practices within the Church vs. Jewish cultural practices within the Church. On the surface, it seems like an easy fix. It apparently wasn’t because they needed to convene not just a council but the council of apostles. After everyone was heard, the correct wisdom or procedure was given. When wisdom comes from God, everyone agrees with it though each person can choose to be disagreeable about it. God’s wisdom just makes sense. This is where the apostolic ministry comes in.

        We have to admit that the modern churches are so divided that the spirit realm does not recognize it as the Body of Christ. “Jesus I know, and Paul I know. But who are you,” is the way the principalities and powers look at the modern church. Jesus SET (ie. established ‘once and for all’) five primary ministries in the Church. In both passages where these ‘eternal ministries’ are listed, the Bible lists both the apostolic and prophetic ministries because they are foundational (indispensable) ministries.

        One of the jobs of the apostolic ministry– literally, one of the abilities God gives that ministry– is to discern (literally, ‘discover’ or uncover) the solution in any given situation, problem, issue, or quandary. When authentic apostolic ministry is present, no one is “tossed to and fro” regarding knowledge. The apostolic ministry turns the lights on and everyone can see CLEARLY. When it comes to Grace vs. Law or anything related to that, it is clear to me that since our hearts are hard (resistant to God’s truth or unwilling to accommodate God’s truth) in this area, apostolic ministry is in fact still relevant. I say this because many people have opinions as to whether or not apostolic ministry is relevant for today.

        I don’t even have to consult the Bible (which says, especially in Ephesians 4:11-16, unequivocally that apostolic ministry is a ministry that must remain in the churches as long as there is a Church) to find out whether or not apostolic ministry is still relevant. I just have to look around me and, seeing the DEPTH of lack, reason logically that God must have an answer for the things the churches lack. A lot of the lack I see among modern christians is tied to a lack of genuine teachers; a lot of the lack is tied to a lack of genuine pastors; a lot of the lack is tied to a lack of evangelists; a lot of the lack is tied to a lack of prophets; and a lot of the lack is tied to a lack of apostles. How is it possible that all the error and lack you find among christians is tied to one or more of the five-fold ministries (or that one of the five-fold ministries is meant to address and resolve that lack) unless in fact those five-fold ministries are still relevant? A family may not have a father, but a father is needed nevertheless; a family may not have a mother, but a mother is needed nevertheless; a child may not have siblings, but siblings are needed nevertheless.

        God doesn’t look at things the way we do. We look at things according to our own preferences or convictions (“I’m gonna marry; I’m gonna have just one kid; I’m gonna settle down in this state for the rest of my life”); but God looks at things according to how He DESIGNED them to be (which largely explains why He will judge fallen angels and sinners– because He DESIGNED both to worship Him, but they would not). God DESIGNED these issues– eg. whether or not to keep the Law and how much of it to keep– to be answered first by Him, secondly within fellowship (“where two or more are gathered”), and thirdly through the ministers He SET in the churches for that purpose. Without the revelation that come from these, there will be no way to reach an agreement that comes from God regarding issues such as ‘Grace vs. Law’. That’s why I said spiritual things are simple… They are only simple when they are fully revealed, and full revelations usually come when the five-fold ministry is available– at least the apostolic ministry (and sometimes the prophetic ministry) which is ‘fitted’ with wisdom like Solomon and specifically TAILORED to resolve all quandaries. Praying for God to raise up these ministries (genuine ones, as there are many frauds around) is more important than trying to get different points across without any spiritual revelation available.

        • Snoopy

          This going to be my last post here, so I ask that you please consider what I have to say.

          Any Tôwrâh “direction, instruction and teaching” provided to man from God in today’s world, by any five fold ministry individual or council which is comprised of teachers, pastors, evangelists, prophets and apostles, would have to be congruent and harmonious with God’s Word. God’s Word is simply our teacher and foundation of truth, and God’s truth is revealed through His Word.

          You say, “Without the revelation that come [sic] from these, there will be no way to reach an agreement that comes from God regarding issues such as ‘Grace vs. Law’.”

          The operative word in your statement is “agreement” because God’s Word is clear to those that He has imparted wisdom and revelation to. Although the New Covenant text provides numerous revelations regarding this topic, the “key” passages to understanding “Law and Grace” are Galatians 4:21-5:1..

          When the difference between “bondage” vs. “promise and freedom” are understood, then the message of the Gospel is made crystal clear, (as is Law vs. Grace).

          James says in James 2:10. that if we break “just one” Mosaic Law, then we are guilty of breaking “every” Mosaic Law.

          “For whosoever shall keep the whole (Mosaic) law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”

          Paul says in Galatians 5:3. to the foolish Galatians who had been bewitched into observing the Mosaic Law and had therefore been circumcised, that they now are obligated to keep and observe the whole of the Mosaic Law.

          “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole (Mosaic) law.”

          Why did Paul tell the foolish Galatians who had been bewitched into observing the Mosaic Law that they now are obligated to keep and observe the whole of the Mosaic Law?

          Because of what God’s Word and His Truth says in Galatians 5:4,5.;

          “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.”

          If Christ has become of no use to you and you have fallen from Grace, then that would mean that you “no longer” have access to God’s free gift of Righteousness nor Christ’s Reconciliation.
          So that would mean that you now have “no choice” but to keep and religiously observe the whole Mosaic Law for any hope at righteousness and reconciliation.

          And because Paul and those of like mind wait for the hope of God’s Righteousness and Reconciliation through the Spirit and by Faith, (rather than attempting to religiously observe each and every relevant to the individual Mosaic Law) then there is obviously a distinct difference between the two in regards to our Salvation.

          Marianne has no idea that my motivation is born out of love and my fear for her, just as Paul feared for the Galatians. But she believes she is right and is stiffnecked.

          Snoopy, here is a question to ponder over before I go.
          Have you ever considered whether or not I could possibly be sent by Father God and could be a member of that five fold ministry?

          In Yeshua’s service.
          God Bless.

          • It is not difficult to accord or harmonize or agree with God’s Word. It really seems like you’re complicating simple things. The Torah is not a big deal. It never was. We have God’s Word because of sin. If not for the Fall, we would have had only God Himself. So, what’s the super big deal with the Torah? God’s Word is to be written in hearts and in minds which leads people to obedience and relationship with God.

            Psalm 119:130 says, “The unfolding of Your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.” The Holy Spirit unfolds the Word. He doesn’t cause a person to understand everything in the Word; He unfolds it bit by bit. So, we aren’t dependent on gifts or abilities from God. And those exist, yes; as John mentioned “the anointing that abides in you” and Paul prayed, “that God would give to you a spirit (enabling Grace) of wisdom and revelation”. But there is no special ability needed to understand God’s Word– only the Holy Spirit and a teachable spirit.

            I don’t think it’s hard to understand the differences between bondage and promise as long as the Holy Spirit is the one distinguishing. I feel like you may be complicating simple things. The Holy Spirit simplifies things. Many christians actually reject the idea of morality or conscience in favor of so-called Grace which says they aren’t likely to live under Law. When Paul talks about those who want to keep the Law, he is talking about those who want to be ‘abide under the shadow of the Law’ rather than under the shadow (salvation) of God in Christ– people who want to be saved by works of the Law rather than by Grace through faith in Christ. There are two: a.) those who are ‘under Grace’ but adhere to some practices of the Law vs. b.) those who were saved (past tense: ‘justified’) by Grace but prefer to be saved (future tense: ‘perfected’) ‘under Law’.

            The Bible talks about those who fall from Grace: “You have become severed from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by Law; you have fallen from Grace” (Gal. 5:4). It is only those who seek to be “justified by Law” who are severed (ie. rejected) from Christ, not those who adhere to principles of the Law but seek justification through Jesus alone. Paul spoke about those under Grace who continued to practice principles of the Law: “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand” (Rom. 14:1-4).

            When someone is under Grace and continues to practice principles of the Law for conscience, health, or other reasons but not to be justified by those practices, the person “stands” in God’s eyes while he/she may look ‘fallen’ in the eyes of others. You have to be careful of how you discern or judge as you may be judging someone whose master is Jesus and who is not at fault as you think they are. These are two extremely distinct groups of people– a.) christians who seek to be justified by keeping the Law rather than justified by Jesus and b.) believers who seek justification through only Jesus but who practice certain principles contained in the Law.

            My friend, if your motivation is born out of love for Marianne, then don’t leave because of a disagreement. Rather, stay and iron out the misunderstandings between you two so that ‘iron can sharpen iron’. As James says, “Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom… The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield” (Jas. 3:13-17). Stay and promote patience and agreement. There has been an apparent misunderstanding between you and Marianne as well as regarding the Word that you two should work out.

            Also, if God sent you to be a five-fold minister, where is He sending you, and which ministry has He called you to? If you’d like to share some about that, we can test such things here on this forum– as the Bible tells us numerous times to do. And if God has given you a legitimate ministry, then the Holy Spirit will reveal it to those here who have the Holy Spirit. It can be a benefit to people here, and you can also be benefitted in return.

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