Rapture into Time
–
Rapture may not be a change in location (from earth to heaven), but a change in time.
–
Thoughts:
We just skip the tribulation (and / or wrath).
After the tribulation we return with…Jesus .. we saints just shows up out of no where with him with bodies that never died.
Maybe we will experience a Time change – teleportation – instead of a change of location (earth to heaven) with a transformed but still physical body
Maybe the Wilderness that the woman escapes to is not a place………it is a new time in the future or the past, where there is no danger.
The concept of a Twinkling of an eye……is a concept of time, not place.
–
If the rapture occurs at the Speed of light, it could indicate going back in time, or forward in time.
Time travel is moving through the 4 th dimension to a parallel universe, which seems more like a space and place, not a time.
Confusing, isn’t it?
–
–
Time travel is accomplished by generating frequencies that rapidly change from low to high, and are so inconsistent that they tear at the fabric of time.
http://www.wimp.com/timerelativity/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/
–
This opens the portal for time travel.
–
One can wave the signal from low to high of spectrum, and the results depend on the strength of signal…..
The bigger and more powerful the signal…the bigger the opening……
Where you are going, or when, is controlled with computers.
This is why people are concerned about CERN when it is turned on. It will create enormous opening……could allow anything big to come through…a massive opening in time rift is created…….maybe so big that alien mother ship come through.
–
–
So, when the rapture occurs….and the woman escapes into the wilderness…..WHERE do we go, or WHEN do we get there?
–
Maybe we just go into the future, and wait for everyone else to show up. We are there waiting for them.
–
What do you think will happen?
–
See also
–
Prophecy, rapture and the science of time travel
Moving for safety during tribulation
Black Holes from CERN and End times
Heaven Awaits 
he has aready returned when i can not tell you were i cant tell you but you know hes alll around you can feel his love and his peace god bless you all
true
Jeanette,
Do you really believe the Bible is true, or a bunch of FABLES?
I believe it is true, therefore the following is advice for people who think the way you do (No offense intended)
Matthew 24:26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Interesting to think about… I do think we’re going to find out real soon though…maybe this year, next year..who knows…but soon. 😉
@Jeanette/Steven: Jesus came the first time to die ont he cross and rise again. He’s with us in the Spirit upon salvation..but if I go by the Word of God, He has not come back yet. He gave us specific things to look for. I disagree if I believe in the authenticity of the Bible, which I do…one hundred percent. There are some things that are not in the Bible that are curious to think about..like this post here… unfortunately, His second coming is in the Bible, and that is very unbiblical.
jeanette – AHHH a Believer after my own heart. I been trying to tell this to people for years now. Rev. 10:1 is history. But it’s like talking to a wall.
Jesus 1st. Coming was a complete mystery. And Israel paid the Price in full in 70 A.D in the 3 1/2 year war between Rome and Israel. A Elijah Prophet John the Baptist introduced the Messiah and it was a complete mystery to the whole of the church world in that day. Same thing today. But People think you lost your mind.
Just got this today on the News. Then a couple prophecy’s in 1947 and 1954 By William Branham – Just a couple of hundreds on this subject.
Vatican calls for world government and a New World Order
Activist Post
The leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Benedict XVI, has called for the establishment of World Government and a New World Order.
In a speech made at the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace on Monday December 3 2012, the Pope called for the “construction of a world community, with a corresponding authority,” to serve the “common good of the human family”.
As a means of defending global peace and justice, the pope’s vision for the establishment of World Government and a New World Order is supposedly not to create a new superpower, but a new governing body that offers to those (politicians) who are responsible for making decisions, criteria for judgment and practical guidelines.
The Pope was quoted as saying:
The proposed body (World Government) would not be a superpower, concentrated in the hands of a few, which would dominate all peoples, exploiting the weakest.
The Pope also described his vision as a “moral force” or moral authority that has the “power to influence in accordance with reason, that is, a participatory authority, limited by law in its jurisdiction.”
These latest remarks made by the Pope and the Catholic Church come as no surprise considering that in 2010 the Catholic Church sought the establishment of a new Central World Bank that would be responsible for regulating the global financial industry and the international money supply.
It was reported that the Vatican sought “a supranational authority” which would have worldwide scope and “universal jurisdiction” to guide and control global economic policies and decisions.
China’s new push for closer ties with Russia, the growing intrusions from the United Nations with regards to control of the Internet and the latest remarks made by the Catholic Church all point to a new world order that will set in stone a path the world may not be able to recover from.
Andrew Puhanic is the founder of the Globalist Report.
Quotes from William Branham – year 1947 & 1954
EXPERIENCES_ PHOENIX.AZ SUNDAY_ 47-12-21
E-20 Now, there’s coming a confederation of churches. It’s already national. You know, you…?… And they’re confederating. And there’s two great powers a moving in the world. You know what they are without telling. There’s one combination of power, and the other one is Catholicism and communism coming together. One against Christ, the other, the Catholic church. Those two powers are coming together. It’s… Every person in the world is going to be under obligation to take sides with one or the other.
That’s when the little Holy Ghost Church will come together. That’s when… [Blank.spot.on.tape–Ed.]… the hall of critics for a long time. And I believe that God is going to hang It in the hall of fame one of these days. Persecutions…
Year 1954
THE.INVASION.OF.THE.UNITED.STATES_ JEFF.IN V-26 N-1 SUNDAY_ 54-0509
203 But let me tell you, when Mr. Roosevelt (The man’s dead. Let him rest; I trust he is.) come in, and run in three or four terms, and taken over, just a preliminary dictatorship… I can prove to you, that in the Scripture, where That said it’d take place. That’s right. We haven’t got no more constitution. She’s broke to pieces. Everything’s all smattered. The Republicans is just as bad. It’s six of one, and half a dozen of the other one.
For every kingdom is going to be smashed, but the Kingdom of Jesus Christ shall stand and reign forever. That’s right. Upon… Daniel saw the Rock hewed out of the mountains, and hit the political world back there and mashed it into a grinding powder like that, like the wheat on a thrashing floor in the summertime. But that Rock grew into a great mountain that spread over the–filled the whole heavens and earth. That’s it.
205 The political world’s gone. Our nation is broke. You remember that, that Brother Branham said that, THUS SAITH THE LORD. Our nation is debolished. It will never rise. She’s gone, like all the rest of the nations. It’s the greatest nation in the world standing today, but the very seed of the devil has been planted into the hearts of the people; how it come into Hollywood, how it got out into the people, and begin to this… And you can’t tell them nothing.
Get a President up there who will try to close whiskey, and not have prohibition, see what would happen. He’d be shot in two hours after he got in there. Sure, he can’t stand it; the whole world’s against him. Yes, sir. You couldn’t do it.
She’s gone. She’s invaded, and the spirit of communism has took over.
Very interesting! That needs further thought… 🙂
Hi Marianne and all,
As with every biblical topic, we must look to Scripture for the answer and always pay attention to what is written. Therefore, regarding those who are resurrected and caught up consider the following:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
So, according to the Scripture above, when the Lord descends [from heaven], those who have already died in Christ will be resurrected (Anastasis), which means to stand up again in the same body; and those who are still alive when this happens will be changed in a moment and will be caught up (Harpazo) to meet those who had just resurrected, where we all gather in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Once that has taken place, then the following ensues:
“In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
So, according to the Scriptures above, once both groups are resurrected and caught up, then the Lord takes us back to the Father’s house to those rooms or mansions that He Has prepared for us, so that where the Lord is we may be also. Preparing a place for us in the Father’s house would infer a location, that is, a place, and that location being heaven, where the Father is and where Jesus decends from when he comes for us and where He has been sitting at the right hand of the Father.
Furthermore, Rev.19:14 shows the Lord’s bride, (the armies of heaven), following behind the Lord as He descends from heaven to usher in the end of the age and to begin his thousand year reign, which would of course show that we are descending from heaven with Him as can be seen from the following:
“The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.”
For identification as to who the army is, see Rev.17:14.
Also, since Paul said that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presense of the Lord, this would show that the departure of the believers soul at the time of death would go to be in heaven and that because, again, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father.
Yours in Christ
true, that is the traditional view, and has much biblical support.
and
maybe heaven is just the future with all evil destroyed
Has anyone stopped to analyze what GOD called Heaven?
Genesis 1:6. And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
What I understand from the above, is that the FIRMAMENT is HEAVEN!
“And God called the firmament Heaven.”
Where is the place “Firmament” ?
“divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament:
I understand that “Heaven” is the SOLID ground, something FIRM!
I see that there may be a logical explanation WHY we no longer are able to find the Garden of Eden, as it may have been in the 4th Dimension which we cannot enter, as …
Genesis 3:23. Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
good and interesting thoughts!
I have often thought this same thing. Since eternity is outside of time. I think that is what it means when it says we are “caught up” in the air with those who went before us. The dead in Christ rise first, but we “catch up”” to them “in the air”, where we leave time and enter eternity. My Dad died last month and we reaized “hey, Dad’s in eternity now, that means he has ALWAYS been there!
Here are a couple of passages that indicate something about what Jesus talks about…
Mark 8:35 “…to know what it means to really live…” (paraphrased) In other-words, we aren’t “alive”…yet! As I’ve explained to my sons, “IF” you could talk to a “child-in-the-womb”…how would you describe to them what it’s like to take their first breath of air?” OR “…to be BORN?” Simple…you couldn’t!!! You could only tell them that they will go through some “tribulations” and then it would be “Great!” and they will have to take it on “faith!” Well…that’s what Jesus “DID!!!” He came back here to Earth…to give us the “Good News!”
the “other passage” is this:
Mark 12:25 “…In Heaven we shall be as the Angels…” (paraphrased) Which is to say that we DO receive “new bodies” of which there is NO distinction between “a Man” & “a Woman!” Which puts this phrase into context:
I am now, as I have always been, and shall always be…s “spiritual being!!!”
In the first Chapter of John, (forgive me for NOT knowing who says this and/or to whom…but it goes like this) “…you were with Me, when I created this Universe…” People “miss” the point of this message as it IS speaking about “us!” “WE” were with God when He made this Universe! It is our “spirit” or “soul” or “whatever” you want to call us…as we were made in His “image!”
oh yeah! one more!
Mark 13:27 “…I will gather My CHOSEN ONES from the furthest parts of Heaven and Earth…” When Jesus was asked if we are the only ones in this Universe…He reply was that there are “many” beings in God’s House…but none “shine” as brightly as “us!” Perhaps…when the time comes…and we are all “raised-up” to meet Jesus, changed in the “blink-of-an-eye” and receive “new bodies!”…we will also discover that “we” are part of a much larger society comprised of “many” different “beings!”
“Perhaps”…NOT everyone is “capable” of “accepting” this “reality” and will be “left behind” OR…will PERISH in HELL’S FIRE!!!
I’m NOT trying to argue these points…just stating how “I” view them. It’s “Okay!”…you can point out all the “flaws” with my “Point-Of-View”…no problem! It’s just the way I “see” things!
God Bless!
I take my teaching from Jesus, not visionaries and seers. Jesus said in Matthew 24 that there would be NO RAPTURE. He would return and collect His flock only afterwards. Rapture teaching is dangerous as many may lose faith when they don’t see it happen. It is a fairly new teaching that started only two centuries ago.
I am confident that Jesus is the reliable authority here.
The church of Philadelphia is the ONLY one that will escape this, to some extent, through being hidden in the desert. Isaiah 18, Rev 3:9-ish and Rev 12. Rev 12 spans the entire church history from Jesus to Jesus returning.
Do not speculate or otherwise be opinionated on this in any other way than going to His Word. Jesus was quite clear on this; accept what He had said.
that seems inconsistent. the TIME he comes for the saints does not CANCEL the event.
if the ONLY definition of rapture is pre-trib…then maybe you are right.
but I am not saying this…..
there are pre-trib, mid-trib and post trib definitions
people come here with different views, so I use the term tribulation in a generic way.
for me…..
I believe there is a tribulation and a wrath period…..
and that we are raptured AFTER the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath.
Pieter,
I would disagree with the above for I believe that a “gathering” is clearly described within Scripture.
In my opinion what you claim as being “a fairly new teaching” is tantamount to saying that the “Book of the Law” is a fairly new teaching if you were to compare it to when Hilkiah said to Shaphan, “I have found the Book of the Law in the House of the Lord”, (2 Kings 22:8.), simply because it had been lost for many years.
Other than the obvious verses that people will utilize to debate this topic, Scripture is full of less obvious but nonetheless significant verses that point to this event.
ie; Ephesians 1:10. – 1:14.- 1:19,20. would be just a few examples of which I could provide many more.
Logically, if we were to simply look at Paul’s 2nd. epistle to the Thessalonians, (where he comforted them in chapter 2 in respects to their concern of missing the “gathering”, (2 Thess. 2:1.)), if this gathering were to simply come at the end, why would they have been concerned at all?
If they were still living on earth and not with Yeshua…. it couldn’t have been the end, so why on earth would they have been concerned at all?
Something to perhaps consider while you also reconsider your views regarding the Trinity. (Acts 8:29. & 13:2.)
To all be Blessed in our Most Holy and Glorious Savior. Yeshua the Highest KING of kings and LORD of lords.
Amen.
Hi Pieter,
You said:
“Jesus said in Matthew 24 that there would be NO RAPTURE. He would return and collect His flock only afterwards.”
First, Jesus is not speaking about the resurrection and catching away in Mt.24:30, but is referring to His physical, visual return to the earth to end the age and begin His thousand year reign. The problem is that, people continue to err by making the event of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with Jesus’ return to the earth at the the end of the age, for these are two invidual events. The differences are that, at the event of the resurrection and catching away, angels do not gather us, but we rise to meet the Lord in the air, where he takes us back to the Father’s house. However, according to Mt.13:24-30, 37-43, at the end of the age, the harvesters (angels) will go out and first collect the weeds (one taken) for destruction and then afterwards they will gather the wheat. This gathering of the wheat is what Jesus is referring to when he says that he will send out his angels and these people will still be alive in their mortal bodies who will have made it through that last seven years after all of God’s plagues have been accomplished.
Also, the church of Philidelphia is not who is cared for out in the desert during that last 3 1/2 years, but is the woman of Rev.12, who Scripture identifies as the nation Israel (Gen.37:9-10). Furthermore, it is not just those who fit the bill of the church of Philidelphia that escape, but to the individual believer of all the churches who overcomes, which is proclaimed at the end of each of the letters to those seven types of churches. In other words, anyone who resembles any of those churches mentioned and the indivdual overcomes, then they also receive the promise, not only given to that specific chruch, but the overcomer also receives the promises given to the other churches.
In addition, the teaching of the resurrection and catching away or rapture as many call it, is not a new teaching, but was taught by Paul as he received it directly from the Lord as found in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and
1 Cor.15:51-53, Rev.3:10. Since according to Scripture believers are not appointed to the suffer the wrath of God, then we must be removed prior to the opening of the first seal, for the seals, trumpets and the bowl judgments are all listed as the wrath of God. Regarding this, in
Luke 21:34-36, Jesus tells us to watch and pray so that we me be able to escape all that is about to happen to those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. There is only one way to escape an event that is going to affect the entire earth and that is to be removed.
Yours in Christ
This post is crazy!
You infer that time travel is possible, in fact easy to accomplish.
ALTERNATE UNIVERSES IMPLIES ALTERNATE JESUS’ AND ALTERNATE GOD’S AND ALTERNATE EARTHS.
Trillions of me’s and you’s all living alternate lives. Who knows, you might be a Muslim in a few billion other universes. Or maybe you were never born. If time travel exists then we should be seeing visitors from the future all the time.
The bible is not a Sci-fi novel. If it was then Jesus would have clearly described time travel to His disciples. You are only making a simple subject far too complicated. Next you will have the angels as cyborgs and God on the bridge of the starship Enterprise.
Guess you’re running out of ideas for topics eh?
🙂
time travel is possible, and has been done. personally, I am not smart enough to do it.
NO….parallel universes do not imply alternate jesus.
he moves from one dimension to another….he is Lord over space and time….remember?
Time travel is possible? Who says that and who did it?
Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman
I think, they will be staying on the earth.
I also think that there is just one reality, no alternate universes, time lines, which may be fascinating, when you are a fan of science fiction but it will create confusion when it comes to be followers of Jesus Christ.
Hi gyod,
Where you say above, “I also think that there is just one reality”, I would suspect that your comment was formulated from what your personal definition of reality consists of?
Think for just a second as to how Elishia’s servants “reality” changed after the Lord opened his eyes in 2 Kings 6:17.
Personally I don’t think that we have clue one as to God’s Magnificence and as to what reality really consists of.
Just my thoughts.
Be Blessed in Yeshua’s Most Holy and Sufficient Grace.
Glory to God in the Highest.
Amen.
There are many sci-fi books telling us about time travelling. Is it in the hands of evil or good ones? I think that most of the christians are conservative and they do not have access to time travelling. Jesus says to beware false christs and that times are hard for christians at the end of time. So hard that even the chosen ones may fail to avoid false christs. When I have read scriptures of the christians only one who seems to claim to have time travelling possibility is LDS or Mormons.
dear tapio and gyod
It is documented that our governments have been doing time travel for decades now. Have you ever heard of the Philadelphia experiment? It was done in world war 3. Science is not sci fi, although science can be presented as sci fi on TV.
Einstein, in his theory of relativity, explained time travel, and his knowledge has been used since then to produce amazing technology.
I gave some extra links at the end of the post, giving a little insight into this.
However, science is still in its infancy, when asked to explain the “all” of God’s universe. It is too vast for the human mind.
I think we will spend eternity discovering everything that is possible with god. Since he is infinite, we will never learn it all.
during the 42 months, those that are not raptured who remain to be tested and/or saved will help the woman.
Documented by whom? The government would most certainly keep the lid on it and for the rest of the world, there is too much speculation out there.
The experiment did end disastrous anyway. If time travel were possible and Satan would go back in time, would we have two? To me it, God operates on a single, linear time line.,
“Time Travel?” Ummm…??? POSITIVELY…NOT!
What the ONE “thing” God CAN’T do?
Answer: “Change the Hands of Time!”
Think about it! “IF”…God “could” change the Hands of Time, would he not simply “re-wind” everyone here on Earth and allow us to do things “right” the second time a around! OF COURSE HE WOULD! He “loves” us so much…He would NOT destroy us “IF” he could simply go back in time and “guide” us in the right direction! RIGHT?
Anyways “…just a thought!”
bobby
god can do anything. he created time and what makes it real or not real.
A vision of the future by John in revelation was accomplish by John being caught up and brought into the future, so he could see things and write them down.
Many prophets had visions of the future , they described details as they saw them. they did not say god told me it looked like this or that……they were actually there and saw the events, and said this is what I see.
WHen Joshua prayed for a long day to fight the enemies, God made the sun stand still, to increase daylight.
The Lord is the Lord over time, and space, and all creation.
I don’t think, it was necessary to transport John into the actual future. He may have watched it like we would watch Star Trek on TV.
To Joshua it looked like the sun stood still but I think, the earth stood still and perhaps the moon too, since it revolves around the earth.
gyod
I was looking at Rev 4:1
After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter
Hello Marianne,
I personally do not believe that John went into the future, but that all that he saw and heard was shown to him by God via visions of the future, like a movie and not that he was acctually there. Even if time travel was possible, I don’t believe that God would allow man to be involved in it, any more than he will allow man to populate Mars.
SORRY to disappoint you ALL that believe “Einstein” said time travel was possible…AS HE NEVER SAID THAT!
Unfortunately, the statement he made has completely been “miss-interpreted” by so many for so long…that it actually made it into textbooks! His “Theory of Relativity” is just “THAT!”
In describing his “Theory”, he explained what traveling at the speed of light would “look” to someone from different perspectives! In other words…”relative” to their independent positions in space! NO SUCH THING AS “SPACE-TIME!”
PLEASE…GET AN ACCURATE “TRANSLATION” OF HIS THEORIES AND READ and STOP this nonsense about “time-travel!”
As for the “Philadelphia Experiment?” There is NO evidence…whatsoever…that anyone OR anything, went “BACK IN TIME!” As for going “forward?” What’s the Big Deal with that? Although I am not sure about “Cryogenics” and whether or not it will ever work…”theoretically”…it “seems” possible!
Therefore, “IF” the Philadelphia Experiment “transported” something or someone (“thing”) into the future…it did so by creating a “bubble” of energy in which that “thing” was held until it was “re-materialized” at a future date (for lack of a better description) OR a “form” of “cryogenics!”
Listen to “Nassim Harramein”, The Resonance Project, for an update on modern-day “physics!”
Take Care and God Bless!
this is man’s efforts….
god would not make any mistakes
AMEN!
Once again…no one has ever gone…”back in time!”
“IF” you want something enough…it will manifest itself!”
I know you’ve heard this before…right!
Well…by “showing” someone what is going to happen…it “will” manifest itself!
“WE” were made in His Image…correct!
Therefore, if “WE” believe in the Holy Scriptures…the Holy Scriptures “WILL” manifest all that they say!
“Yeah!” Marianne…I don’t have a conventional view on “things!” I really never did.
I have nothing but love for you and everyone else here on your website!
So I’ll stop right here! lol
Take Care and God Bless!
Sincerely,
bobby wise
the focus here is actually forward in time, since those in the rapture “return” at a future time.
the theory has been proven as a law. it is being applied to space travel now.
“Yep, Accepted!” I totally agree with you on this point:
“…Personally I don’t think that we have clue one as to God’s Magnificence and as to what reality really consists of…”
Mark 8:35 “…to know what it means to really live…” (paraphrased!)
To All,
Haven’t you always found it strange that there are so many of us that believe in a “gathering or rapture”, yet can’t seem to derive a consensus as to when it will occur?
Some are adamant that it will be a pre-trib event, where others are equally convinced that it will occur mid- or post- trib.
Why is it as man, we appear to be convinced that it must only be one or the other? A “black or white” scenario?
A few of us that frequent here have proposed many times in the past, that all are correct.
In Revelation 20: 5 and 6, the terminology “first resurrection” is utilized.
Is there not the possibility that all that is expressed regarding a “gathering” in Paul’s epistles, and within the Book of Revelation, encompass this banner of “first resurrection”?
The Assembly or Church of those that express Yeshua’s love for others fulfilling His commandment. John 13:34.
(ie; the Church of Philadelphia) which takes place “Pre-Trib”. Revelation 4:1.
The 144,000 that are “caught up” during “Mid-Trib”. Revelation 14:2.
And the Tribulation Saints just before Yeshua’s final return. Revelation 15:2.
In my opinion, this takes all of the particular points of view and neatly places them into all being correct, rather than causing division.
Just what was on my heart that I thought that I would share.
Praise Yeshua our Most Holy Savior.
Amen.
Hi Accepted!
I agree with you…it really doesn’t matter to those that “believe” in Christ as to “when” something happens or NOT! “WE” should simply always be “vigilant” as no one knows the “day-or-time” not even the “Son!”
However, I would like to point out a small “error” many people have made concerning Scripture and the “End Times” and the “Thousand Years.”
First…the Last sign of the End Times in which Jesus said (Mark chap. 8-13?) “…He would be knocking on our doorstep…” OR in other words, that he would be coming soon…very soon (months, weeks, or days)!!! This Last Sign occurred this year (March – July) in which He said “…there would be wonders in the sky…” Check out YouTube “Triangle in the Sun” & “Sun Spheres.” These “spheres” are truly “Wonders in the Sky!” & therefore, Jesus IS returning…SOON!
Second…the “Thousand Years?” We all know that ONE DAY for God is equal to a “thousand years on Earth (or is it ten thousand?). Rather than argue “just” how much time it’s equal too, arbitrarily…let’s say 1,000 years on earth. BUT, when He says that a 1,000 years will pass before the END comes at which time He will put an END to Evil “…once and for all…” I believe it will NOT be Earth Years, but rather 1,000 seconds(?) OR possibly even 100 seconds(?) OR 10 seconds(?) OR maybe ONE SECOND! Just enough time for those that did not “accept” Jesus to “…cry out with gnashing of teeth…” as they realize they made the wrong decision!
The “reason” I say that the “time” (1,000 years) is “small”…is because, “What man, woman, or child…would NOT accept Jesus into their Heart, when faced with the REALIZATION that they are to PERISH…FOREVER?”
ANSWER: NO ONE! “IF”…given the time to do so, everyone would “repent” and “accept” Jesus into their Heart!
For Jesus said this will happen when He Returns…and HE IS RETURNING SOON! MANY PEOPLE ON VARIOUS “CHRISTIAN” (including this) SITES HAVE SAID “THEY” FEEL LIKE “SOMETHING” IS GOING TO HAPPEN SOON!!!
As Jesus said, “…the birds in the trees, know when it is time to fly South for the Winter. Why is it that you do not know when I am returning?” (paraphrased)
Yeah…I know! Y’all are going to come back at me with all kinds of Scripture and Reasons and “Logic” as to “why” I’m wrong…as you are all “set” in your individual beliefs of some man-made Religion and/or “Church”…RIGHT!
That’s Okay! I love you all as I follow the “teachings of Jesus Christ” rather than that of some “man-made” religion!
Therefore, as “Accepted” said above…why don’t we all agree “…In my opinion, this takes all of the particular points of view and neatly places them into all being correct, rather than causing division…” and simply spread the “Good News!”
Take Care and God Bless!
Sincerely,
bobby wise
Hi Bob,
You make quite a few points above, and I would like to respond to some of them when I have just a little more time.
If it’s okay, I’ll try to do so before Wednesday, okay?
Be Blessed brother.
Hello again Tom,
You said:
“However, I would like to point out a small “error” many people have made concerning Scripture and the “End Times” and the “Thousand Years.”
First…the Last sign of the End Times in which Jesus said (Mark chap. 8-13?) “…He would be knocking on our doorstep…” OR in other words, that he would be coming soon…very soon (months, weeks, or days)!!! This Last Sign occurred this year (March – July) in which He said “…there would be wonders in the sky…” Check out YouTube “Triangle in the Sun” & “Sun Spheres.” These “spheres” are truly “Wonders in the Sky!” & therefore, Jesus IS returning…SOON!”
The reference that you made above regarding “He would be knocking on our doorstep found in Mt.24:32-33 which says:
““Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.”
You are one of those people that you spoke of who are making that same error by your interpretation. For Jesus is not speaking of the resurrection and catching away in the verse above, but of the end of the age when He returns visually and physically to the earth to begin His thousand year reign. The error is that people do not understand that the resurrection and catching away and the return of Jesus to the earth at the end of the age are two separate events, which is what causes the confusion.
As proof, Jesus mentions the signs of the sun, moon and stars, as well as the setting up of the abomination of desolation. These events happen during that last seven years and are the result of the judgments contained within the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are God’s wrath. The church will have been resurrected and caught up prior to these events, because again, we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. Those events will be happening to those people who continue to reject the salvation provided by His Son and who continue to live according to the flesh. The true believer will have already repented and received Christ and therefore we have already done what God requires of us. Now that we have repented and received Christ we continue along in our walk with Christ being transformed into his image as we go from faith to faith waiting for His appearing to remove us before the wrath of God begins. Why do you think the Thesalonians were so concerned when they wrote Paul saying that certain people were proclaiming that the resurrection had already taken place? They were concerned because Paul had taught them that the catching away immediately follows the resurrection, which would have meant that they missed the boat and therefore would only have the wrath of God to look forward to, which follows the removal of the church.
If you’ll notice in Revelation, when God is pouring out is wrath upon those who are continuing to reject him and who are continuing after the sinful nature, they continue to not give him glory and to curse him. Tell me, what do you think about the Scripture below?
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
The above verse and prior is Luke’s version of Mt.24 with the description of the abomination that is set up and the signs in the sun, moon and stars and everthing else that is written Revelation that is not written here. Jesus mentions [Escape] from all that is going to happen upon the [Whole earth]. Where would one escape to if the whole earth is involved? He’s not talking about escaping somewhere upon the earth like the woman Israel being cared for, but escaping off of the earth. Regarding this, consider what was promised in the letter to the church of Philidelphia and any believer who overcomes:
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also [keep you from] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the [whole world] to test those who live on the earth.”
In the verse above, He did not say “I will keep you through it” or “I will keep you safe in it,” but He said, “I will keep you [from] the hour of trial.” Keeping us from it means that we will not even be exposed to it. And how does He perform that, by the resurrection and catching away.
Yours in Christ
As I said previously…I’m not great with remembering the “exact” Chapters and Verse…
Sooo…I looked it up…and basically, It IS MARK CHAPTER 13. It refers to quite a bit about the “End Times” and confirms all that I wrote above.
Remember what I said, “…this is just my viewpoint on the matter!” and as I “believe!” In the long-run…right or wrong…I “still” believe in God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Scriptures!!!
AND…I continue to spread the “Good News!”
You would really like John Shorey’s book, “The Window of The Lord’s Return,” available at http://www.TribulationTruth.com Very interesting and very biblically supported. Makes more sense, in fact, than anything I’ve ever heard.
Satan the Wolf has a “Rapture” as well According to the “WORD of GOD” It is plain as the nose on your face. It’s right in the Scriptures below. When are we going to check these things out dear believers.
JOHN 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the WOLF COMING, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the WOLF CATCHETH them, and scattereth the sheep.
MEANING OF WOLF- 3074 {loo’-kos} — wolf
1.a wolf; applied figuratively to cruel, greedy, rapacious, destructive men
MEANING OF COMING IS:
Coming – 2064 erchomai same as Rev. 1:7 of Christ coming. 1) to come
1a. of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public
2. to come, metaphorically
3. to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto
3) to go, to follow one
NOW REMEMBER HERE:
We are talking about the “Wolf coming” and catching away a people.
wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. Right out of the sheep fold.
CATCHETH MEANS – Same word as you all use for rapture of church
#726 harpazo from 138 & 142 — catch up– take by force,– pluck
catch away — pull — to seize
1. carry off by force, claim for one’s self eagerly, to snatch out or away
This word “harpazo” is the very word used by all brothers teaching a rapture of the church. Pentecostal and all.
Mankind is either caught up, snatched out , caught up into one of two kingdoms.
ONLY TWO KINGDOMS YOU CAN BECOME AN ‘IMAGE’ TO:
The Earthly realm or the Heavenly realm. You are in one of these right now. You are living by your Human spirit ruling you or the Holy Spirit ruling you. To you become a Mature child of satan or Jesus Christ.
1. Satan which is the “HUMAN gOD OF THIS WORLD” the HUMAN SPIRIT and FLESH feeding off each other. Manifesting into SON’S OF PERDITION. Like Judas, Cain, Esau, Ishmael. “Hello are you there” do you see it – Bible call them “Natural brute Beasts” = unbelievers
2. Or it’s the Kingdom of GOD = Human flesh Filled WITH THE HOLY GHOST SPIRIT and feeding off of the WORD IN HEAVENLY PLACES- Which will crucify your flesh man into a “MANIFESTED SON OF GOD “.
Lovers of the Word and Jesus Christ and hateth the world. Believers
3. Cain had a chance just like Abel did. One sold out to the “Mark of the Devil” the bible says so in 1 Jh. 3:12 I believe. A son of perdition a SATAN An enemy of GOD – He got “raptured” taken away in in flesh man letting it be ruled by his HUMAN spirit – Which is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. He LOVED the WORLD and HIS FLESH RULED HIM — He was “caught up” in HIMSELF – Had NO REVELATON of the right sacrifice and did not care enough to ask his Brother Abel
4. Abel listened to his “Theo = God and not his “phany” = Flesh – Theo-phany.
5. Cain went with his Flesh man.
6. We all have Potential for Eternal Life when Born. A Little Angel is waiting to go into every person Born. Praise God. We all are angels. Inside.
7. You are a Fallen angel =raptured away into the “god of this world” SEATED in satans seat on earth without Jesus – Rev. 2:13. —
8. Or you are a Heavenly Angel that is = Raptured up into Heavenly places SEATED with authority over “satan”. Living in Heavenly places.
7. Remember to check out Gr. # 138 and 142 for more clarity of this word. The root gr. is above #726 – If you are interested enough in your soul.
When Peter had a Godly revelation of who Jesus was – He was blessed by God even as the Rock of Revelation which the church is built on. That revelation was about – The “Mystery of Jesus Christ”.
But just a few minutes after that Peter went against the “Will of God” by saying Jesus will not have to be crucified. Jesus Called HIM SATAN. This right here should be enough to convince anybody of who Satan is.
Sorry Tom,
I have never really understood your interpretations.
The only thing that we have ever seen “eye to eye” on is that Yeshua is the Way, the Truth and the Life and that He is the only way to receive Salvation.
Praise and Worship be unto Yeshua the Most Holy KING of kings, and LORD of lords. Amen.
Thats alright Accepted – You might have to read it 2 or 3 times like I got to sometimes to understand some of these post as well. I thought it was pretty much self explanatory. The Wolf Cometh – is same words As Jesus cometh in Greek except one is Wolf = satan “your flesh man being led by the human spirit leading you. But Jesus the Holy Spirit annihilates that flesh man and human spirit where you “RISE ABOVE” that ole flesh and human spirit. The Human spirit of man is the DEVIL, accuser, slanderer of self and others.
Your human spirit is the only Wolf, Devil, Satan you have to fight along with evil mankind. Cain persecuted and killed Abel. It was Mankind that Killed Jesus – That is the Devil, Satan, mankind in a fallen man. No regeneration, still beastly and carnal in appetites toward Good and Righteousness.
And also the Word for Rapture – catcheth away is the same word they use for Jesus catcheth you away that is called the “Rapture”. You see what I mean now.
Two gatherings of people. Jesus sows seed and then Devil sows seed in Matt. 13 parable. So bottom line is I trying to tell people – The “Rapture” is not some flying up in the sky or clouds in your flesh man like millions think it to be. In the Bible they All died before they Raptured or Resurrected etc. etc. Even Jesus had a Rapture After the Cross. But He died did he not. And Raptured.
Lord bless you Accepted and I mean that with my whole heart brother. Whether I can spell good or not ok. (smile) – ty
Tom,
Wouldn’t say…… Job 1:7., and 2:2. throw a wrench in that interpretation?
And just because the Greek “harpazō” is utilized, one can’t necessarily take the word and its meaning out of context as I believe that you have done.
There are many other Greek words that must also be researched like “synagō, (Matthew 13:30.), episynagō, (Matthew 24:31.), anakephalaioō, (Ephesians 1:10.), episynagōgē, (2 Thessalonians 2:1.), paralambanō, (Matthew 24:40,41.)” etc. etc. etc.
Simply because “harpazō” is stated in itself, does not mean that the context of the meaning is exactly the same as what it is meaning in a completely different passage.
Where you say above, “The “Rapture” is not some flying up in the sky or clouds in your flesh man like millions think it to be. In the Bible they All died before they Raptured or Resurrected etc. etc.”
Scripture would tend to disagree with your interpretation, and understanding that is stated above.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1 Thess. 4:16,17.)
Have a peek at 1 Corinthians 15: 50-54. too.
This is why I have never really understood much of your interpretation. (Nor do I need to read it again.)
Nothing personal, but to me it has always seemed to be convoluted?
Nonetheless, may you Be Blessed in Yeshua our Holy Savior as well Tom.
accepted
Do you think the rapture will occur as a mass death of christians occur?
Hi Marianne,
Personally, just off of the top of my head, “No”.
However I can understand how Scripture could possibly, (what in my opinion), be misinterpreted that way.
In my opinion, whenever this event takes place, and The Father turns to His right and say’s to Yeshua our Lord, “It’s time, Go Get Them!”, that it will be a “confirmation of the Truth” for those that are perhaps on the fence, (or as expressed within Yeshua’s epistle to the Laodiceans), for those that are left behind.
If as you pose, it could somehow be a mass death….. that would mean then that our bodies would be left behind, right?
Yeshua’s body was not left to decay, so I believe that those that are accounted worthy for this event, won’t be left to decay either.
Their bodies will be changed, (allassō ), but not simply discarded.
Just my thoughts.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Exalted KING.
Amen.
Oh and just a short appendix to the above for You and Tom, neither Enoch or Elijah died before being caught up.
ok, I see you were quoting Tom now.
LOL, 🙂
Oh…. now I see how the confusion occurred.
Nope I was quoting Tom, and that is not how “I” see it unfolding. However some do.
Be Blessed in Yeshua the Highest.
Hi Marianne,
Allow me to jump in here. Your question is:
“Do you think the rapture will occur as a mass death of christians occur?”
The answer to this can be found right in the verse itself:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.”
The word “Changed” is the Greek “Allasso” which means:
alter (1), change (1), changed (3), exchanged (1).
Those who will have died in Christ, at the resurrection their bodies will be regenerated from the dust of the earth and reunited with their souls, where those who are still alive when the resurrection takes place are simply changed or altered, so that we take on the state of immortality. The only difference between those who will be resurrected and those who are living, is that those who are still alive will not have died in order to be resurrected and therefore we are just changed on the spot and caught up. Whether one is resurrected or changed in a moment, it always has to do with the same body that we now inhabit. In other words, when the catching away takes place, the world is not going to see dead bodies strewn about the earth and that because we will be in those bodies going from the earthly to the heavenly.
Another example would be that, let’s say that there were christians who died one week prior to when the resurrection and catching away took place. If those who were left here were to go and dig up their graves, they would find no bodies. The word for resurrection is the word “Anastasis” which means to “Stand up again”, that is, in the same body. A bodily resurrection is exactly what the Scriptures proclaim when in the Psalms it says:
“because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.”
Decay has to do with the body, not the soul. And of course Jesus stood up again three days later in the same body after He was crucified.
Bodily resurrection was also demonstrated when the Jews, remembering that Jesus had said that after three days he would rise again, and so they requested of Pilot to set a guard so that Jesus’ desciples couldn’t come and steel his [body] and then say that he resurrected. When the catching away takes place, the same thing happens, with the exception that we are still alive and in our bodies when this event takes place and so we are just changed while in them and caught up.
Yours in Christ
dmcal
I agree with you. That question was mistakenly for alienated, who had actually quoted Tom. So I was not expressing a belief, but questioning one.
Hi Tom,
In regards to what you said:
“So bottom line is I trying to tell people – The “Rapture” is not some flying up in the sky or clouds in your flesh man like millions think it to be.”
Flying or transported in a moment up into the sky is exactly what is going to take place, as the context of 1 Thes.4:13-18 bears this out. The context states that the dead in Christ shall [rise] first and then we who are still alive, will be changed in a moment and [Caught up] to meet those will have just been resurrected to meet them in the clouds. The fact that Scripture states that we will be meeting the resurrected in the [clouds] should be enough to show that we will be meeting the Lord in the air.
Consider the use of the word Harpazo as used in describing Paul, when he was [caught up] to the third heaven or the Male Child who will be [caught up] to God and to His throne. That would certainly be [up] and off this earth since God’s throne is in heaven. The purpose of our being changed and caught up, will be to remove those in Christ from off the earth prior to God’s wrath being poured out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, for we are not appointed to suffer wrath, which faith in the shed blood of Jesus rescues us from. The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him [caught up] is exactly what every Christian throughout history should have been anticipating and especially us who are living in the very last days leading up to that last seven years.
We who are in Christ are not looking forward to the end of the age, but for the event of our being gathered with those resurrected to meet the Lord in the [air]. Then, what the Lord promised to his disciples in John 14:1-3 will take place, where He takes us back to the Father’s house, that where He is we may be also. The words and the context of those Scriptures are very clear in regards to this event, so I am suprised that you would proclaim the opposite. In fact, the context in which the words “Clouds” and “Air” are used demonstrates where we are being caught up to.
Yours in Christ
God bless you dmcal – I have posted a few of Pauls thoughts and the meaning of Air below. I use to preach and teach a rapture as most in Pentecostal , baptist etc etc. believe. But in my heart I was not so absolutely sure about it. NOW I know for sure about it. You have to look at the whole Bible to understand most scripture. In 1 Cor. 15 those precious believers got to thinking they was left behind and missed the 1 st Resurrection. They where very worried about it. The whole chapter pretty much is about the Resurrection. When he said those that sleep = dead will not prevent those that are “alive” from having a Resurrection=rapture. Paul said to “comfort” one another in this life because you can also be resurrected while you are living. It was the NEW BIRTH he was talking about being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye. They did not have to worry about missing the Resurrection. You can be on your feet and walking and have a Rapture or Resurrection or Quickening or Translation in the Spirit. And your life goes into another Dimension of air = GOD. Our Theologians today have it so scrubbled up its almost impossible to understand by the common believer. If the Rapture was a truth and you are mid-trib or post – trib then you cannot say that today Christ could come. That would be a serious mistake on our part. Hope you see what Im saying. For Christ to come any day then it would have to be Pre-trib. This is why I try and tell people on this forum and everywhere else. Forget about the 7 year tribulation and or the 3-1/2 year tribulation theories. Its already over and done with. I can prove it by scripture. Do you honestly understand what I am saying dear dmcal52. I can prove those periods are over completely fullfilled already. This is the danger that the false teachers have put the church into a sleep over. He comes as a “thief in the night” . God bless you so much and may God be with you in all things. Your post was in good intent and I believe with much concern. I appreciate that very much. Same as this post to you. Love you in Christ. ty
so there will be no tribulation, or rapture….we will all be here for God’s wrath, which follows the tribulation?
Tom doesn’t believe in an “anti-Christ” either.
Go figure?
This why I have always had problems with his interpretations.
Tom, I am not a new Christian, nor did I just fall of the turnip truck. I have been studying the word of God for the last 40 years. First of all, I did not get my understanding of God’s word from any teachers, but they were formulated from my own studies with the aid of the Holy Spirit. I can guarantee you that the resurrection and catching away is still future and will take place just as it is written, as will that seven years, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all that is to take place regarding the that man of lawlessness, culminating with the Lord’s return to the earth and we with him.
You said:
” Paul said to “comfort” one another in this life because you can also be resurrected while you are living. It was the NEW BIRTH he was talking about being changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.”
To claim that Paul was speaking about a New Birth opposed to an actual catching away to meet him in the air, is pure conjecture on your part! You are applying a spiritual interpretation, as well as manipulating the context. But if you read it at face value, which is how it was meant to be understood, then the original meaning is received and that being that Jesus is coming to get us and literally remove us from this earth just prior to God’s wrath being poured out.
What you are teaching would be the opposite of what the Lord was teaching and that is to watch and pray that you may be able to escape the things that are coming upon the earth, namely all that he previously mentioned, which included the abomination of desolation. You cannot have that last seven years as being completed and that because the immergence of the beast is directly related to the visual, physical return of the Lord to the earth to end the age and begin his thousand year reign.
You are correct that the theoloians of today have it scrubbed, but luckily they are not my teachers, nor do I get my information from them. These are the same people that proclaim that the Lord’s resurrection was spiritual opposed to a bodily resurrection and in doing so the deny the Lord who bought them.
In regards to what you said,
“Forget about the seven years and or the 3-1/2 year tribulation theories. Its already over and done with.”
You have no covenent made with Israel, no temple, no sacrifices or offerings have taken place, no antichrist/beast or false prophet, no seals, trumpets or bowl judgments and no physical return of Christ, physical meaning “Every eye shall see him.” These are all signs and as I said, the emergence of the beast is in direct relation to the return of the Lord at the end of the seven years, after God’s wrath has been poured out. This is just another example of the prophecy of men not putting up with sound doctrine, but gathering around them teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
Christians should be doing what the Lord told us to do, watching for his return. By the way, the mention of clouds is in reference to literal clouds and not a spirital or symbolic interpretation.
“After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a [cloud] hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the [sky] as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
The Scripture above is to be taken literally, as the context shows that Jesus was hidden by a literal cloud and there is no reason to apply a spiritual or symbolic meaning to this.
If I seem upset, it is because I am and that because I am grieved because of all the false teaching that is going on today and what you are proclaiming is part of it. I have run into people who teach that the book of revelation is exaggerated and not to be taken literally, that Paul was a false apostle and a liar and therefore, none of what he wrote is God-breathed, that our current bible is not reliable because it was written by men, that Satan and his angels are going to be restored to their holy states, that we are still obligated to the works of the law, that the mark of the beast will not be a literal mark, but is the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday and many more topics too many to list here.
No thank you! I will continue read God’s word and interpret it literally except when a symbolic interpretation is required. I will continue to anticipate and wait for when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the arcangel and the literal trumpet call of God, where the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which remain and are still alive will be changed in a moment and caught up with them in the clouds to meet to the Lord in the air.
Amen! You are absolutely right on everything and I am in agreement with you brother!
Where is your proof in the Bible on time travel?
Prophecies were given as visions for example when peter fell into a trance.
And what would Jesus be doing if he was travelling into the past and back?
Yes, Accepted! I agree with your interpretation 100% as this is the way Jesus says it to BE! I’m NOT about to argue with…Jesus!
Take Care and God Bless, Everyone…in the Name of Jesus Christ…Amen!!!
RAPTURE The Real meaning. To Bro. Accepted and all. A much needed teaching for this age. More can be said later in another post. Hope you read this one.
“If Jesus came back in Acts, 2 then what about the Rapture? Well, it took place on schedule just as God, through Paul, said it would. Saints who were alive at the Lord’s return were ‘caught up’ to meet Jesus in the air. They became, without passing through physical death, residents of the consummated Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ. God’s restoration plan for man was complete, and physically alive believers were included.”
If you believe Jesus came back in Acts 2 and “Spiritually entered into them” then what about the rapture? Fair question. In this study we will look at some Biblical answers. Remember that in 70 A.D. The world of Judaism and Temple worship were destroyed by Rome. The Mosaic Age’s were history. A brand new spiritual world had raised up for the Gentile and Jew. Becoming one with God together. Rev.4 After the 7 church ages. Jesus says to John “Come up hither“ . The time age is drifting into a NEW age. Of the Son of David the Lion age. Kings and Priest.
How, then, are we to understand the rapture? What does the Holy Spirit, through Paul, want us to understand by the term “caught up?” The concept is Biblical as we see in the text from I Thessalonians, so we know there are Biblical answers to these questions.
One of the great joys and benefits of coming to the preterist view of eschatology is the excellent 20/20 hindsight it provides. When I hear a fanciful end-time guess, it is always fun to say, “Well, it didn’t happen that way.” This is a real conversation stopper, and it gives one a chance to testify to the words of Jesus. There are many passages in the Gospels where Jesus promises to return before the generation then living passes away.
This hindsight serves us well here. The literalists tell us that when the rapture takes place millions of Christians will vanish from the earth. “Well, it didn’t happen that way.” We know Jesus returned in Acts. 2 and in 70 A.D. there was vengeance on the keepers of the vineyard, and the kingdom passed to those who honored the Lord of the vineyard by loving His Son. Resurrection, judgment, New Jerusalem – all accomplished, BUT there was not a mass vanishing act by living Christians.
Spiritual Senses Needed
Paul never meant for us to receive his teaching with a literal mind. He spoke of spiritual things and wanted Christians to understand with spiritual faculties. If Paul lived today and saw what we have done with his passage on being “caught up,” I believe we would again hear the words, “And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ . .. for you are carnal.” (I Corinthians 3:1,3a)
A Bible dictionary I have owned since seminary days has this to say: “Believers who are living at the return of Christ will be transformed without passing through death (I Cor. 15:51,52, I Thess. 4:17). This ‘rapture’ or being ‘caught up’ to meet the Lord in the air is Paul’s way of describing the experience of transition into the new redeemed order of Resurrection life without passing through death.(1)
The above explanation from my old Bible Dictionary is right on target. When you were born again you were translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s dear Son. Was there a physical change? Was there any material manifestation? Of course not, but that didn’t mean your rebirth wasn’t real or important.
In your rebirth you underwent a change of kingdoms – a change so great that it had eternal consequences. And yet there was nothing perceptible to the visible world of sound and sight. You could not “prove’ your rebirth by a change of color, change of height, or any geographical change. Your rebirth simply could not be confirmed by this world and its citizens.
A Secret You Should Know
Now, here’s a secret. Much of what God does, and we are speaking of those things that have enormous spiritual significance, are done beyond the witness of this fleshly world. The ‘rapture’ or the ‘caught up’ to meet the Lord in the air is one of those things.
The carnal thinking of men would have the whole world witness the mysterious disappearance of all the Christians. They move from the sublime to the ridiculous. Remember the Scripture: “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him. nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (I Corinthians 2:12,14)
New Sounds From Old Symbols
The I Thessalonians 4:13-18 passage is full of symbolic language. Let me give you an example showing the imagery of the trumpet from the Old Testament Scriptures: And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: “Make two silver trumpets for yourself; you shall make them of hammered work; you shall use them for calling the assembly and for directing the movement of the camps. When you go to war in your land against the enemy who oppresses you, then you shall sound an alarm with the trumpets, and you will be remembered before the LORD your God, and you will be saved from your enemies. Also in the day of your gladness, in your appointed feasts, and at the beginning of your months, you shall blow the trumpets over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; and they shall be a memorial for you before your God: I am the LORD your God.’ (Numbers 10:1,2,9,10)
These verses from Numbers show that the trumpet called and directed the people. When our New Testament says, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with . . . the trumpet of God,” we should see this as symbolic of a gathering. God never meant for literalism to spoil the spiritual meaning. Matthew also uses the symbol of the trumpet in the twenty-forth chapter of his Gospel.
Clouds speak of God’s power and presence at work to affect a particular task; in our passage it is the resurrection. Air, in Biblical language, speaks of a spiritual environment populated by personalities without fleshly bodies. We could go on, but surely the reader appreciates that the rich language of symbolism conveys much truth with few words. But consider this: How much do we lose when we insist upon bringing literal interpretation to symbolic imagery?
God’s Children Deserve Better
When we insist on bringing literal interpretation to symbolic language we reduce God’s message to the ridiculous. Look at what we have done with the rapture. If we can rise above the carnality of the literal, we will understand the true meaning of God’s word. If not, we are condemned to wallow in the absurd interpretations to which literalism leads us. Gods children deserve better.
Paul’s teaching on the resurrection in I Thessalonians. and I Corinthians is rich instruction for the church: Behold, I tell you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (I Cor. 15:51,52) It is interesting to note that dead are raised, but the living are changed. According to the Thessalonian passage, this change takes place spiritually, i.e., in the ‘air.’ explained in post below
The explanation from my old Bible Dictionary captures Paul’s intent. It falls short, however, in this one particular: The writer fails to appreciate that what he calls ‘the new redeemed order of resurrection life’ is, in actuality, the consummated kingdom of God. One can easily forgive him, for he makes no pretense to write from the preterist point of view. It is fascinating to see, though, how close he comes to that truth with his clear interpretation of Paul’s ‘rapture references,’ for the new redeemed order of resurrection life is part of God’s completed restoration plan for man.
Rapture Error Widespread
The premillennialists confound and amplify the rapture error. They are not the only offenders, but the premillennialists commit the larger abuse because they separate the rapture from the second coming by a number of years. This non Biblical act transfers the emphasis from the second advent to the rapture. The end-time spotlight now focuses on the misplaced ‘catching-up’ end thus, the tail wags the dog.
Bringing carnal understanding to Paul’s ‘rapture language’ is not the exclusive property of the premillennialists. Amillennialists and postmillennialists transgress also. While they disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture theory (with scorn in most cases), they, too, fail to bring spiritual acumen to Paul’s accommodative language.
While seeing through the fallacy of ‘rapture fever,’ the majority still believe in a literal vanishing by living Christians at a still future second advent. Not all fall into this category, as witnessed by the author of my Bible Dictionary, but most do.
Realized Eschatology Forces Focus
Realized Eschatology, or the preterist position, forces the true meaning of Paul’s words into proper focus. Recognizing the second coming and the consummation of God’s kingdom as complete brings the student to the inescapable conclusion that Paul’s teaching has a spiritual, not a literal application. This is progress.
In the author’s experience there was an immediate, “Of course! Why didn’t I see that before?” The new knowledge settled comfortably into its prepared niche. There are times when we know we make a tremendous breakthrough in our grasp of Scripture. This, for me, was one of those times.
Rising up out of the bonds of carnal interpretation into the light of the higher spiritual understanding is an exciting adventure.
The lines from an almost forgotten poem come back to me: “I slipped the surly bonds of earth to tread the untrod sanctity of space . . . to chase the laughing wind along.” As you can see, most of the lines escape me, but they well describe the sense of buoyancy felt in my spirit when spiritual realities blossom and flourish.
Part of the joy, I believe, is the witness of the Holy Spirit with our spirit to the truth of these matters. God loves to see the eyes of our understanding open as we increase in wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him (please see Ephesians 1:17,18).
When one discovers the spiritual emphasis of a popular teaching, such as the rapture, there is an overwhelming desire to share the breakthrough with others. That is natural, and it is healthy, but let me add a word of caution. Do not venture forth without your full armor.
What Shall We Do?
One of the most hazardous tasks one can ever undertake is to speak truth to those mired in the error of traditional beliefs. The people of God are not excluded. The Gospel account of the ministry of Jesus should convince us of that.
If the Lord makes these truths real to our hearts, we should speak. Do not be so naive, however, to assume everyone will receive your revelation with abounding joy. Be ready to duck! Like everything else in the Christian life, we can only carry the message – God has to make it real to the human heart. Prayer for those to whom you speak is indispensable. Use it before, during, and after speaking. It’s good for you and them.
Love should be the motivation when communicating with others – love of the truth and love for the brethren. If love isn’t first you’re wasting your time. God is love; His servants will reflect that.
“IN THE AIR” meaning
If the clouds at Christ’s return are not weather clouds but the spiritual clouds of God’s presence and glory, then obviously the term “in the air” must also convey a spiritual phenomenon. Paul did not mean that believers will go up to the clouds in the atmosphere but that believers will enter into the presence or realm of Christ’s power and glory.
The word “air” is used in the New Testament for both natural air and the realm of spiritual powers. In the book of Revelation it is used in the context of angelic activity, and in Ephesians 2:2 it describes the realm and work of “the prince of the power of the air.” This power is over a spiritual dimension rather than the natural air and its weather patterns. Paul linked the realm of the air with the “heavenly places” or heavenly realms and described how spiritual battle takes place in this realm. The realm of the air is also the realm over which Christ has ultimate rule. Christ has been raised to heavenly places and the church is seated with him there. This dimension will be opened for believers (Eph 1:20, 2:6, 3:10, 6:12).
The word “air” is used together with the word wind, which also denotes both natural and spiritual realities (Eph 2:2). In the New Testament the word “wind” almost always conveys the meaning of “spirit” and, in the same way, when the apostle Paul spoke of “air” he was certainly not referring to what we breathe, made of nitrogen and oxygen, but was referring to an invisible spiritual dimension. Air is the nearest Paul could get to describe this invisible realm. Just as air is real but invisible, so Paul used it to describe the very real but invisible realm which is very close to us. It is the spirit dimension which is not far off, just invisible, right here “in the air.” Paul did not mean that believers were to be caught up to the atmosphere but that believers would have access to that spirit dimension. Believers will be caught out of their present condition which is subject to mortality and into a spiritual condition subject to immortality. The “air” is the spirit realm that Christ rules over and which will be opened for believers. At his “parousia” believers are not going up into the weather clouds but are going into the “presence” of Christ at his return. The invisible kingdom of the air (NIV), is in the air all around us and believers will have access to it. Immortality will be released into God’s people.
Tom,
Ummm….. First thing is, there is not a chance that I claim to know God, The Word, or His overall plan like you believe, and express that you do.
If you believe that you have it all figured out, …… Well, there have been plenty of others in the past, that in their delusion, have thought the same.
Above I had posed in a previous post to you as to how Job 1:7., and 2:2., threw a wrench into your theory regarding satan. I would also include Jude 1:9., and Isaiah 14: verses 12 through 15.
Regarding the recent posts that you have made above, and the babble regarding your interpretation of the “gathering”, I couldn’t finish reading them.
They simply don’t resonate in my heart as being anything more than a Hellenistic, or Gnostic type of view point, and a convoluted misinterpretation of the Word of Truth. Sorry but that is my opinion.
Blessings
Oh and Tom,
Haven’t you ever noticed that much of what you believe and express appears to mirror the teachings of that of the Sadducees, and the Jews that opposed Paul during his ministry?
Here you go again. I already been in all the things you believe. I Thank God I can hear the Voice of God that brought me out of the wilderness of the Laodicean age and into the Bride age. If you are comfortable in your state of blindness and comfortable in having death ears to hear anything that could set you free. So be it. I believe you are having a great warfare inside you. You can fake me out but you cannot fake out God.
ps I havn’t had the time to even respond to your Satan in Job or elsewhere. Im a 24/7 caregiver to my wife. And I can only do so much in a day . —- out ty.
Tom,
I am more than comfortable thank you very much, (though I should have stuck with my original game plan and not responded to any of your posts), but having done so, I would like to say a few things before I discontinue our conversation.
First in respects to your rant to me where you say above, “If you are comfortable in your state of blindness and comfortable in having “deaf” ears to hear anything that could set you free. So be it. I believe you are having a great warfare inside you. You can fake me out but you can not fake out God.”
Well to me that sounds just a tad self-righteous, and reminds me just a bit of say, “Luke 18:10-14. (To suggest that I would require what you may have to say to “set me free”, rather than the Word of God itself and Yeshua as my Savior sorta proves my point.) Nonetheless, as I have expressed to you before, I am not attacking you yourself, but rather your interpretation of Scripture.
Secondly, lets look at all the mumbo-jumbo that you wrote about regarding the “rapture, gathering or resurrection, (exanastasis)” above, (posted on Dec. 16 @ 12:48 am), and see how that compares to Scripture. Though I couldn’t read what you had to say in its entirety, I understood the just of your point of view being something in the realm of “when you are born again that Paul was suggesting that this was a “spiritual resurrection”, and not one of a literal “gathering” that would have true believers being literally changed bodily, and then meeting Yeshua our Lord in the clouds.” Am I right with that more or less?
I mean you do say above that “Paul never meant for us to receive his teaching with a literal mind. He spoke of spiritual things and wanted Christians to understand with spiritual faculties.”
Well do you think that Paul himself in his ministry attained this spiritual condition then?
I mean this is Paul that we are talking about here. If what you say above is accurate, then of course Paul himself must have attained this state of spiritual resurrection right?
I offer the following;
“Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.” Paul speaking in Philippians 3:8-15.
As well regarding the resurrection by Yeshua Himself in Luke 20:35,36.;
“But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”
Now I ask you Tom, doesn’t the above appear to be contrary to what you wrote?
Paul states that he has NOT attained this resurrection yet, and that it is the hope, (the prize), that he is pressing towards.
And Yeshua states that those that will be accounted worthy for it, will neither marry, nor will be given in marriage, or even die for they are equal to angels.
It is obvious that the Rapture or Resurrection is more than just a spiritual revelation, but a physical manifestation that will take place as well.
I won’t bother to respond to you anymore, for you appear to take the critiquing personally and then attack the one that disagrees.
I will let everyone else make up their own mind with the discernment of the Spirit, as to whether what you post has any validity for consideration.
I do not doubt your love and faith in Yeshua, only that of your interpretation of the Word.
Be Blessed.
I think there could be a spiritual level of experience (rapture, resurrection, etc), but there is a physical one also.
Hey you…. GO TO BED!
It’s 3:38 am your time.
Zzzzz.
Good Night Marianne.
Love A. >
ha ha ….i just woke up….and now I am drinking hot tea, trying to get sleepy again..so far, I have only slept 2 hours
Tom what you are claiming here is another example of improper interpretation, that is, taking what is meant to be literal and assigning a spiritual or symbolic meaning when none is required. Their is no symbolism in 1 Thes. 4:13-18, but is pure conjecture on your part. In order to come to your conclusion, you have to symbolize or spiritualize the Scripture, which takes away the original meaning. The resurrection and catching away is still a future event, and will take place just as it is described in Thesalonians and Corinthians. What are you basing your conclusion on that this event has already taken place?
Thanks, Accepted!
I like to “explore” the points I made a lot more…i just don’t have that “intimate” knowledge of Scripture to really follow everything through…Take Care and God Bless!!!
Hi, Accepted!
I share in your sentiments, also!
Accepted said this on above post:
Tom doesn’t believe in an “anti-Christ” either.
Go figure? This why I have always had problems with his interpretations.
You know better than that Accepted – You told me you don’t even read my post. So that is why you do not know .
Very short Summary of the Anti-christ so simple: men stumble over it.
1st John 4:1- I Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many FALSE PROPHETS are gone out into the world. — a false prophet has the Spirit of Anti-christ in them.
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God:
— Has Jesus Christ entered into your flesh to rule.
3. And EVERY SPIRIT that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that SPIRIT OF ANTI-CHRIST , whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even NOW ALREADY is it in the world.
—anti-christ spirit is Worldly – If you have Holy Spirit you will hate the world.
4. ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have OVERCOME THEM : because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
— does your Theo control your phany –Phany means flesh -Theo is God
5. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. They don’t know God — self explanatory
6. We are of God: he that knoweth God HEARETH us; HE THAT IS NOT OF GOD HEARETH NOT US. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
A. He that will hear let him hear what the “SPIRIT” saith unto the churches;
7. ¶ Beloved, let us LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is BORN OF GOD, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love
Love rejoiceth in the TRUTH. Not puffed up, rejoiceth NOT in inquity, suffereth long, is kind, vauneth not itself, seeketh not her own, behave’s itself, NOT EASILY PROVOKED, beareth all things, endureth all things, has Charity –
ANY Holy Ghost filled person, that Jesus has ENTERED “INTO” THIER FLESH BODY to live. Is of God. ALL else are of the world and ANTI-CHRIST. If they die today – they do not go to Heaven. But to their 2nd. death. Fore eternity.
The HOlY GHOST is the “Mark of Character or Image of God living in you”
It loves to learn more of Christ and they Love the Word of God and desire Truth above all things. That makes their Character more LIKE CHRIST. So they are able to walk in the above Gracies of Love mentioned above.
Tom,
(sigh), I was referring to the term “anti-Christ” in the sense of a specific individual, like the Seleucid king Antiochus “Epiphanes,” c. 175-163 BC who took away the sacrifices, and defiled the sanctuary in Jerusalem the first time.
Isaiah 46:9,10.
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
The Tanakh is cyclical, history repeats itself over and over again in Scripture. The book of Revelation is Prophesy (though I know we have done this dance before, please don’t bother to argue the point that you believe that it has all been fulfilled), and John within the book infers that a similar character will rise again.
It is that anti-Christ that I was talking about.
Now regarding all that you had said in respects to the “gathering or rapture” above, (that I didn’t bother to read in its entirety), Gee I guess I was completely wrong in my understanding? I can see now as I read what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. on, that what you say and what Paul says are almost word for word the same.
By the way, That Is Indeed Sarcasm!!!
Signing out for now.
🙂
Accepted – Have you talked to your Theophany lately. HE might be starving to hear from you. Character reveals the man inside. You are indeed a sarcasm. ————-ty
Quick summary of the Rapture
“CAUGHT UP” – HARPAZO – 1 Thes 4:17
The term “caught up” depicts a forceful event. The Greek word is “harpazo” and conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised (Vines) and is used to describe a powerful release of God’s energy. Paul was caught up to the third heaven and did not know whether in or out of his body; but he had access to the spiritual realm and heard words which could not be expressed in human language. Paul did not necessarily physically leave this world. Philip was also mightily moved on by the Spirit of the Lord and was caught away from one place to another but did not leave the earth. Noah also changed from one age to another yet by water. It seems Ezekiel also had a similar experience. Each received a powerful intervention of God’s power which released them from the normal restrictions of this dimension, although they remained in it (2 Cor 12:2-4, Acts 8:39, Ezk 8:3, 11:24).
The use of the same word by the Lord reveals its meaning to us. He said that the Kingdom of God suffers “harpazo” by men of force (Matt 11:12). This is a difficult scripture but the NIV says, “the Kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing and forceful men lay hold of it.” Men enter into it by the harpazo power of God. It conveys the idea of pressing into and possessing the Kingdom (Luke 16:16). Every time Christ did a miracle he reached into a future age, the Kingdom age, took hold of it and released its power into the present situation. Through “harpazo” believers were able to take hold of and enter into the Kingdom. They were not taken out of the world, but rather experienced the power of God coming into them to change their lives and situation. The harpazo is the forceful dynamics of God to catch up something into his power.
Paul used it to describe a future release of God’s power into believers to clothe them in the life of Christ. The “harpazo” is the dynamic power of God to catch believers out of their fallen condition of corruption and transform them into the risen life of Christ. It does not mean a catching out of the world but out of a state, that of carnality and weakness, into that of spiritual power. In his resurrection Christ exhibited a new dimension of being, an order beyond the physical. The harpazo is to be released from the restrictions of this present mortality and to be caught into the freedom of Christ’s life at the time of his entering the believer. —- ty
Tom,
I would suspect, (by the way that above was written), that you have copied and pasted the above interpretation from a website that shares in your point of view.
To me, I somehow find it strange that God the Father would allow for the majority that are filled with the Holy Spirit, the ones that truly seek His Face and Truth, to lack accurate understanding of the context regarding His Word?
It makes no sense to me whatsoever that only a select few would be given accurate revelation, rather than the majority.
Biblically from the beginning, that premise would be substantiated in Scripture as well;
ie; Deuteronomy 17:6. 19:15., Matthew 18:16., 2 Corinthians 13:1., etc. etc.
However you will believe what you wish to believe. I would suggest this though, (since we are speaking about the Word of the Almighty God here), perhaps when you express an opinion and post it in the future, you preface it by saying, “In my opinion”, rather than the way that you currently do now.
I will leave this in the hearts of others as to whether they feel in their heart to oppose, or debate anything that you may write now.
Don is quite capable of doing so if he wishes to continue.
To All; May Yeshua guide all of us who seek Him in Truth to understand His Word for His Glory and Honor.
Amen.
I understand what you are saying regarding the word Harpazo, which I am very familiar with. Within Scripture, words should be used in conjunction with the context in order to come to a proper interpretation. That being said, you are trying to interpret the Scripture by use of the word Harpazo only and are ignoring the context in which it is used. For example, in your example regarding Paul being caught up, regardless of whether it was in the body or out of the body is not the point; for regardless of the capacity in which it took place, the context proclaims that he was caught up to the third heaven. In the same way regarding 1 Thes.4:16, we have in the context the following information:
• For the Lord himself will come down from heaven
• the dead in Christ will rise first
• we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds
• to meet the Lord in the air.
All of the words above are working together in the context to describe the Hapazo event. We have Christ descending from heaven, the dead rising, that is, resurrecting, and we have those who are still alive being changed and snatched up to meet those who will have previously resurrected, then both groups meet the Lord in the air. There is no need to spiritualize the words rise, clouds and air, for these are to be taken literally, as in rising up, meeting in the literal clouds and meeting the Lord in the literal air. By the way, why would you say not to be concerned with the seven and the 3 ½ years, claiming that they have already been completed?
Teleportation Tutorial Tesla’s Magnetic Wall
lol “…cool trick!”
Well put, dmcal!
Tom
In the latter portion of your post you stated that ” It does not mean a catching out of the world but out of a state, that of carnality and weakness, into that of spiritual power. The bible is clear through Pauls teachings that at regeneration we are born again spiritually not physically. Our old self continues its struggle with being human. When Adam sinned he was separated from God. God told Abraham to separate himself from his former life. This theme or principle “to separate” is consistent throughout the bible. Consider the possibility that separateness is necessary between the old and the new. Jesus said “that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit”. The flesh and the spirit are different substances which cannot be combined. It is the state of the unregenerated that sin stands between them and God. Upon conversion Christ stands between sin and God breaking sins power in that it no longer determines the eternal destiny of those who are in Christ. The greatest illustration of this is Calvary. As Christ hung on the cross for the redemption of mankind he was between two thieves. The one who was scornful and would soon die in his sins represents our humanity which must die because of sin. The other who received mercy and would spend eternity with Christ represents the new creation that we became, with Christ separating the two. Sanctification is not the product of us refining our humanity however noble our intentions may be. Humanity cannot be cultivated into God status and those who believe that they have are hopelessly deluded into claiming status that no human can possess. This status will only be achieved at the RAPTURE not gradually through some paradiam shift. Just my thoughts.
God bless: wltrptz
wltrptz –dmcal52 – I wrote this post quit tonight. I have been busy all day with my house and car problem. This is from my Heart – But will try and explain it better in another post.
One thing just came to my heart that I will say quickly here. I’m 65 years old. I went through all the childhood fantasies of life. Then I growed up — And it was harder than I imagined. The best way I can describe to you about the Rapture is this. My Child hood was another Dimension than the one Im living in now. I see things that I could never have seen as a child. Its experiencing truth day by day that brings REVELATION to Your Spirit man.
God had to “raise me up” naturally – But He also had to “Raise me up Spiritually”. Religion is only Human achievement. Faith is the Evidence that comes from the WORD being REVEALED to your Celestial man. Then the Celestial man kills that OLD Nature or Human Spirit in your experience in life. Some people take longer than others. How high are you in your Revelation. The Sky is the limit. Out of this world as far as you want to rise.
The Holy Spirit is the Power to get on your Cross and crucify everything that is not Christ like in your Character. Knowing the WORD of truth should be your upmost important thing in Life as a Christian. That is what sets you free.
I was Raised Assembly of God – With traditions that was so hard to break. It was quite a warfare. Do not think that ‘ coming to the absolute of truth” is a easy step. Its a violent warfare with traditions of the human spirit. The Pharisee and all denomination of Jesus day. Could not make the transitional move to Jesus doctrine either. Satan had them bound in their own human thoughts and their minds were seared over. By traditions. All your Human appetites of the carnal tree feed off of your Human Spirit. You have to be “Raised above” your human reasoning by the Holy Spirit. Human reasoning usely is attractive to the flesh man. It is a satan to most believers. Along with the Mind that Rom. 12:2 tells the believer to Transform as well. Transform from One dimension to another.
Israels Messiah was in their imaginations by the traditions of men. They most all died In 70 A.D not knowing the Real Messiah. They could not shake their human instincts. The Human spirit is the Satan that you fight. Without the Holy Spirit you will lose the battle with Traditions. You have to be Open to the Word if you ever going to see it. Sadly most could not see it when Messiah walked this earth in a Body of Flesh – The signs should have told them who he was. They was blinded by traditions. Its exactly the same way today. Them Scribes, and Phairsees knew the word of Moses but did not possess the Spirit that Moses Possessed. That was Christ.
The Word of God is foreign to most confessing Christians today. They do not want a WARFARE. Therefore they never “RAISE UP” into maturity knowing right from Wrong.
Here is what Paul told the Hebrew believers. Later many of these same Hebrews conscented to Rome to have them cut off his head.
HEB 5:11-14 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the FIRST principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
I’m not in the World =dimension – I do not live according to this world. I have been “Caught up” into the Heavenlies. My Mind, Heart, and soul is into the Word and doing Gods will – The REVELATION of the WORD takes you to another dimension. Your REVELATION is your RAPTURE as well. We are called to OVERCOME – and the last thing we Overcome is DEATH – This is why most WANT to believe in a RAPTURE. There are only 2 resurrection’s – the First – and Second. The First was at Jesus Raising. Even HE had to die to Rise. Are you better than Christ and the Millions of Martyr’s that have been tortured, feed to lions, etc. etc.
Love you all and – ty –
Tom
I feel compelled to respond to that portion of your previous post where you state that “the Holy Spirit is the power to get on your cross and crucify everything that is not Christ like in your character”. Christ was crucified for our sins. Why would we feel the need to do for ourselves what has already been done? Would this not be like telling Christ that his sacrificial act of obediance was insufficient and must be supplemented by our own? It appears to me that the state that you are referring to as the raptured is what most christians know as sanctification which is indeed a progressive work and will not be fully experienced until the full adoption i.e. the redemption of our bodies which will not be progressive but rather in the twinkling of an eye. Sanctification is not that act of our human will that we strive and toil to be more Christ like and through those means experience spiritual growth and eventual maturity.We were crucified with Christ and can reckon our humanity dead in that it has lost its power to stand between us and God. As the new creation develops its characteristics are reflected through our humanity. The old is sanctified by the new not vice versa. It appears to me that the process that you are describing is one where the two substances of old and new become homogenized. This is absolutely false as God cannot indwell sinful humanity necessitating Christ as the mediator separating the old from the new. The old and the new will not be made one or combined until the transformation {rapture}. Is it possible that human attempts to complete this process, which always lead to delusion, is in part what is referred to in the bible as lukewarm as in the combining of two dissimiliar substances hot and cold old and new. Just my musings
wltrptz
If I may add just a few verses to further substantiate the above rebuttals;
Romans 8:11., 8:17,18,19, and 23.
“But if the Spirit of him that raised up Yeshua from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Messiah from the dead shall also “quicken your mortal bodies” by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
The context in how “quicken your mortal bodies” above should be understood in this verse, is that of the “physical body” rather than the “spiritual soul”.
Yeshua was “raised up”, (“egeirō”, another of the Greek words that must be researched regarding this specific event) and it has nothing to do with His spiritual growth or maturity. Rather it is referring to His being “raised up and His subsequent Ascension”.
Verses 17,18, and 19.
“And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Messiah; if so be that we suffer with [him], “that we may be also glorified together”. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.”
“That we may be glorified together”, is expressing a future hope and expectation, and the following text expresses that the sufferings of our current state are not worthy to be compared to this “glory” which shall, (future tense), be revealed in us. For the expectation, (“apokaradokia”, anxious and persistent expectation or hope), of the “creature” (or “ktisis”, later translated as “creation”), “WAITS”, (“apekdechomai”, assiduously and patiently waiting for) the “manifestation”, (or “apokalypsis”, where the applicable definition as it relates to these verses would be, “used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all.”), ergo being, “the sons of God.”
Further proof that this is not referring to a spiritual growth or maturing and that it is an “event” that has not occurred yet, is what Paul says through the Spirit within the following verses. 8:23,24.
“And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
This “hope and expectation”, this “redemption and raising up of our mortal bodies” both dead and alive, this “prize and glorification”, are all referring to this event that is the resurrection or what is theologically referred to as the rapture.
Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our Most Holy and Precious Savior.
Amen.
if we are only spiritually changed but physically still here, we will have to face the dangers and most likely die during the wrath
Yes, that would be the logical conclusion then, but not the Scriptural one. Romans 5:9. 1 Thessalonians 1:10. and 5:9.
Gods wrath is for “the children of disobedience” (Col. 3:6. Eph 5:6. etc.) Therefore, what would be the mechanism that would allow for those that believe in the truth of Messiah to escape all of these things that will come to pass?
The only thing that scripture repeatedly mentions is the Resurrection.
Be Blessed in Yeshua.
Hi Tom,
Allow me to address the very end of your post, which says:
“Are you better than Christ and the Millions of Martyr’s that have been tortured, feed to lions, etc. etc.”
Your error here is that, there is a big difference between being a Martyr because of persecutions performed by the powers of darkness at the hands of men, opposed to the wrath of God. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments that make up the day of the Lord, is God’s wrath being poured out on a Christ rejecting, unrepentant world. The purpose of the bodily resurrection and catching away of the living is to remove believers from the earth prior to God’s wrath, because Scripture states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and we are not appointed to suffer wrath. This event is where the mortal puts on immortality. Consider the following Scriptures regarding what follows the resurrection and catching away:
“While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”
Prior to the Scripture above, Paul gives a detailed account of the resurrection and catching away, which is then followed by the Scripture above regarding the unfaithful which states that, “they shall not escape. But you brothers….” I don’t even have to finish the rest of the verse because, “But you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of not escaping. Paul continues on to say, “But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”
What would be the difference between the one who is not suprised by that day and the one who is? If both the believer and unbeliever remain on the earth for the wrath of God, what would be the difference between the two? Does it mean that the unbeliever says, “I had no idea that was going to happen and the believer says, “I knew that was coming?” I’m being silly to prove a point. For the true believer, we are not in darkness so that that day should take us by suprise. How would believers not be taken by surpise? The answer is, for those who are truly in Christ and are having faith by watching and anticipating His return to gather us when He descends from heaven, then the event that Paul described in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 will take place, which initiates the day of the Lord. In fact, in 1 Thes.5:1-2 after describing the resurrection and catching, he then refers to it as the day of the Lord. Consider the following Scripture as well:
“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
The whole earth? Escape what is about to happen? The Scripture above follows Luke’s version of Mt.24 regarding the signs leading up to the end of the age, which is the wrath of God and everything that will be taking place via the beast and the false prophet. Jesus says that those events that He previously mentioned would come upon all those who live on the face of the [whole earth]. He said something simular in the following Scripture in the letter to Phildelphia church:
“Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the [whole world] to test those who live on the earth.”
Jesus, in speaking about the same period of God’s wrath, states that it will come upon all those who live upon the whole earth. If Paul was not speaking of the dead literally standing up again (Anastasis) and the living being changed and literally caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air in order to be removed from the earth, how could believers escape God’s wrath when, as Jesus says, it will come upon the whole earth?
In the beginning, the church suffered persecution and death and in other countries many are currently suffering persecution and death for their testimony and this at the hands of men. The wrath that is coming, is not by the hands of men or by the powers of darkness, but will carried out by God and therefore, your mention of all the previous Martyr’s is not relevant and that because, what is coming is God’s wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and as Scripture states, we are not appointed to suffer His wrath, ergo, the resurrection and catching away will take place just as Scripture proclaims in order to remove believers from the earth.
Also, regarding a literal bodily resurrection and the catching away and changing of the living to meet the Lord in the air, consider the following:
“But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.”
Peter mentions the devastation that will take place during the day of the Lord, then he says, “You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.”
Look forward to and speed its coming? Is Peter, after describing those disasterous events of wrath, telling his readers to look forward to those events and speed their coming or does he have something else in mind? Peter is certainly not telling his readers to look forward to and speed the coming of the wrath of God that he just mentioned, for that would make no sense, for who would be looking forward to disaster? What is going on here is that, Peter knew the same thing that Paul knew and that being that, prior to those wrath-of-God events the resurrection and catching away would take place first, then the wrath. Therefore, Peter is telling his readers to look forward to and speed the coming of the event that initiates the day of the Lord, which is the resurrection and catching away of believers, which is then followed by those disasterous events of wrath that Peter mentioned.
“Thank You, Don!” Finally…someone that understands, Scripture! I love your explanation. It is very well “put!”
God Bless!
Hi Bobby,
It is refressing and strengthening when someone is in agreement with what the word of God is saying, and so thank you as well. It tells me that the same Holy Spirit that dwells in me dwells in you also. It is always good to hear that someone is understanding Scripture in the same way, that is, in its simplicity. I believe that in these times we are witnessing the fulfillment of that Scripture which states:
“For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” (2 Tim.2:4:3)
In regards to the above, people go from web-site to web-site, from video to video and from book to book and they adopt these people’s teachings, trusing in them instead of adhering soley to God’s word. Regarding the subject that we have been debating with Tom, Look at what John says:
“Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.”
So in the Scripture of above, John mentions the Lord’s appearing as our hope and elsewhere as our blessed hope and what we do know about our Lord is that He dwells in the same body that he was crucified and resurrected in. Therefore, when He appears, we will be like Him being resurrected, changed and caught up also dawning those heavenly bodies. They are called spiritual bodies, but they are also corporeal as Jesus demonstrated when the disciples thought He was a ghost when He said, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” John also said that the person who has the hope of [his appearing] purifies himself, just as Jesus is pure. Therefore, we as believer’s should be anticipating and watching for his appearing to gather us to himself exactly how He said He would, and in these days there are plenty of signs showing that God is about to wrap this up with the completion of that last seven years, which means we must be removed first.
To teach that there will be no literal catching away to meet the Lord in the air would be to teach the opposite of what the Lord Taught and to have no hope of His appearing and therefore, not having faith in His word. Thanks be to God that it will take place just as 1 Thes.4:16 states and regarding this event, Jesus also said the following to his disciples just before He ascended:
“In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” (John 14:1-3)
Amen! Even so, come Lord Jesus!
Hi, wltrptz!
Forgive me for asking this, but…”Did you post this previously?”
As I recall having read it before…
yes sounds familiar
bobby90247 marrianne
Not in its entirety. Some of the content may have been similiar to previous posts as to the percieved relevancy of what I was responding to.
God bless wltrptz
wltrptz – and all others. Progressive revelation and Rapture in Rev. 4:1-2
Revelation is always progressive – So you think when you got saved you received all of Gods Revelation right then. I’m sorry but that is not true. The disciples did not understand hardly nothing walking with Christ for 3 years and he told them they had their names written in Heaven. And that they were sanctified by His Word. He was also talking to Judas there. But Judas was a “son of Perdition” and was not at Pentecost. To get in the Spirit on the Lords day. He lost out and was NEVER RAPTURED. His name was taken off the book of life.
The Holy Ghost is the ONLY POWER that can sanctify you. Its not in your own power to do. Its all Gods GRACE. All the Apostles had many faults yet they did not deny Christ. Or SELL HIM OUT. Taking the Mark of Satan. Judas sold out Christ and was gathered to Satan in his rapture. Jesus said Judas hath a Devil. He could not pull away from his greed and we know who paid him to Sell Out Jesus to them. Judas soul passion was money and greed and fame by wanting to be a ruler in what he thought would be a natural Kingdom being set up by Jesus. When he heard Jesus say he had to die on a Cross. That was a turning point in Judas life. Notice Peter had a revelation of Jesus who He was and yet almost fell for the same reason that Judas did.
On the Day of Pentecost they received their REVELATION of the basics of the mystery of Christ and what the whole Bible was about. But they had to “continuously” stay in the Word it says. When the Holy Ghost filled them in Acts. 2 it “raised them up” in the Spirit on the Lords day. Peter preached a dynamic message. No fear anymore, he knew what Joel was all about then. They all went past their Veil of Flesh and entered into the Throne room or Holiest of Holies. Its is a PROCESS entering the Temple. Outer, Inner, Most Holy of Holies.
And about 3 years later Peter got “caught up” in the Spirit in a Vision to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. He thought that was wrong by HIS TRADITIONS. Faith is always Progressive.
Paul spent 12 years getting his Revelation of the Mystery of Christ. And what did he say about it. He said that he was more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man 12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the REVELATION of Jesus Christ.
John got “Caught up” in Rev. 4:1-2 by a spiritual DOORWAY into the heavenlies. Just like Paul did. And seen things that were Wonders to him even after his long walk with Christ. He would have never believed if He had not been in the Spirit on the Lords day to receive it. If the Spirit does not Reveal it to you. Then it is just head knowledge of religion.
Johns rapturing experience – Rev. 4:1-2
1. The Door way = means in Gr. Door way into – The Kingdom of Heaven.
He was Raptured into heaven but still died on the ground after that. Like I tried to tell you in 1 Cor. 15. Paul was just stating a fact that you can be “Raptured” while still living in a LIVE flesh Body. That has to be truth – Are you could not get BORN AGAIN into a BRAND NEW CREATION. Which is a Morphing, a Translation, A miracle, a Quickening, A worm into a Butterfly is all the above. It Just puts on WINGS and flys off that tree. That is not an instant it comes from Progression.
So a Door Opened in Heaven – Pentecost and Baptist all say this is the Rapture of the Church. But they do not put it in the right text of a Message.
When the Voice of the Trumpet Spoke – A Trumpet is a Voice of a MESSAGE. A gathering as well. For the Believer to “COME UP” higher -If this was not a rapture. Then what did John have according to those that you all believe. This was a True Rapture John was having. He was “caught up” into the BRIDE AGE. This takes place right after the 7 Church ages of denominations are over. Just like the O.T. finally ended. So does the New Testament have a Ending.
John the Baptist was Gods Voice like a Trumpet in the Last O.T church age and its people. His Message pointed right to their Messiah and said this is HIM. Jesus said “I AM” here the Messiah. They laughed at him and hated him and killed him as an imposter.
The last age of O.T the church was blind, wretched and naked just like Laodicea is today.
The 1906 Pentecostal revival was just a portion of the Restoring of the Whole Man and that was the GIFTS of the SPIRIT and that is all. You must have the Holy Ghost and that is just the DOOR OPENING. NOW you got power to understand the Word and live like Jesus Lived. 1906 Pentecost still brought over all their denominational teaching with them. TRADITIONS —- Just like O.T could not let go of their TRADITIONS
Door open to “HEAVEN”
2. Meaning of “Heaven” Rev. 4:1 -After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Heaven -3772 -(through the idea of elevation); the sky;– heaven — air — heavenly
1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it – Faith sees the invisible.
2. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced – that’s war – between hot and cold atmosphere’s – all through the Bible to Revelations. Jesus Bride wars against Satan’s bride. One is Eternal and one is Mortal – One is Spiritual the other is Carnal Both have a seat of authority. One eternal in the heavens and one not eternal on earth
3. the seat = authority – of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells – and other heavenly beings —
a. John was a Heavenly Being while living on earth. God dwells is Heaven in his Bride that is living on Earth. The “Body” of the Bride is God is on Earth – And they have the Word for their day. Just like Apostle Paul, Peter, James, and John etc etc. Had for their day. AFTER the O.T was Fulfilled. By the “Coming of Jesus Christ”.
This is still the Word “Heaven”
From 3735 (to rise or “rear”, akin to 142, compare 3733); — mountain — mount — hill
1. a mountain; a proverbial phrase, used by rabbinic writing, to remove mountains, i.e. to accomplish the most difficult, stupendous, incredible thing -Jesus said by FAITH a REVELATION we can remove mountains. Mark 11:22-24
ALSO Heaven -142
142 airo means to — take up – take away — lift up — to raise up, elevate, lift up
2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up
3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
Last but not least —
Also from same word heaven
3733 of the base of 3735; — hen — a bird– a cock, a hen –
Matt. 23:37 lets read it – O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a HEN gathereth her CHICKENS UNDER her wings, and ye would not!
The Word “Under” is “Hupo” That is where after the Marriage Union they take the Bride and Groom and place them under the Hupo and celebrated their marriage feast. This is the MESSAGE FOR TODAY. THIS is the TRUMPET VOICE Of GOD FOR THIS DAY.
What does a Eagle do she gathers her young UP on her Wings. “Rises them up” into the Heavenlies on her big wings. Flying in the atmospheric regions of the Air. HOLY – Those Angels flying in the Book of Revelation is not all just a “Invisible Spirit” but Faces of Men – Rev. 4:7 sounding out the Trumpet Message for each age. If not then all that is left is verse. 38
MATT 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
COME UP HITHER – means
“Come” 305 anabaino from 303 and the base of 939
— ascend – ascend up — climb up — spring up — grow up – enter — arise
1) ascend to go up – to rise, mount, be borne up, spring up
Now 303 ana — every man — several
1) into the midst, in the midst, amidst, among, between
Now 939 – basis from baino (to walk)– foot (sole of)
1) a stepping, walking
2) that with which one steps, the foot
Put it together. Here is what all the above say about a RAPTURE –Let every man get into the Spirit on the Lords day. One or several you have an open door to Heaven and ascend – climb up — enter — Arise — get into the midst of- by stepping, or walking with steps upward and climb your mountain. Let God hover over you as a hen with wings of mercy, You are now married to Christ. You have sit under the Hupo with your Husband and feast is ready to Eat. The Feast is NOW not tomorrow or the next day. Salvation means deliverance and its not in the Future its NOW. We have a SEAT – of authority that our husband has given us.
NOW come up thither this is your Rapture and rising up and Overcoming your mountains, of false doctrines, lust, worldliness, darkness, carnalities, the World, Hate, revenge, bitterness, seditions, anger, TRADITIONS, perversions, imaginations, doubt, idolatry, lovers of your own selves, covetous, boaster, proud, blasphemers, unholy, unthankful, despisers of those that are good, traitors, fierce, incontinent. Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God,
Forever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH. That is the age of darkness right among you. Your Rapture has taken you above all the fanaticisms of this age.
Next I will try to explain 2 Thess.2:7-10 etc. The man of sin and verse 7 of the mystery of sin already at work but something is hindering it till it is taken out of the way. Most think that is a Rapture.
Your Brother ty
Well this isn’t Biblical, but it is an old and familiar adage…..You can lead a horse to water……..
it is early am, and still dark….so I cannot resist…..there is a difference between horsing around and horse sense. 🙂
Here is an old adage that I believe describes this issue:
“You can’t see the trees for the forest”
You need to get back to the simplicity of Scripture and get rid of the formula’s that you are using for interpretation, that is, believe what you’re reading. This type of interpretation sounds an awful like Hank Hennegraff, who believes that the book of Revelation is Hyberbole, that is, exaggerated and not to be take literally.
Hello, Everyone!!!
There is ONE Chapter…Mark 13…that describes everything being discussed here and is very clear on what is happening…NOW!
As “Accepted” says, some of these passages refer to things in the “future”…as they are being addressed to those that lived at the time of Jesus. However, the “End Times” are described, not only by Mark, but also by Matthew (yeah…i forgot to pay attention to the Chapter and Verse). The important part to understand…is “that” which Matthew wrote about and what Mark wrote about…ARE the same!
And Jesus specifically states that ONLY those that stay true to Him will survive! “WE” ALL have to go through the same “Tribulations!” If the days were NOT shortened…there would be no one left!
We have been going through these tribulations over the past several years (if not longer) and have arrived at this “point-in-time” where “WE” that ARE true believers in Christ…”feel”…like something is going to happen…SOON!”
There is NOTHING “cryptic” in the books of Matthew OR Mark as these ARE the Words of Jesus when He is describing a “future event” to the people of His time.
I probably didn’t explain myself as clearly as I’d like too…but the post was getting to be too long. SO…I’ll let it go at that!
Hi Bob,
I’m sorry that I didn’t get back to you within the time frame of what I had hoped and suggested above. Forgive me please.
Matthew, Mark and Luke are referred to as the “Synoptic Gospels” because of the similarities in their content, however consider this;
Why would the Holy Spirit compel each author to record their own account or version?
And why would there be inconsistences, (though each are very similar), in the content of what is recorded as being said within specific chapters, in respects to what are apparently the same events?
Atheists utilize this as being supportive to their cause to discredit the Word, but we know that the Word is Pure and inspired by the Spirit of Truth.
So, why theses inconsistences?
Regarding what you say in respects to Mark 13, Matthew 24, and what would be Luke 17 and 21 as being the same….. Are they really?
Did the Spirit intentionally omit specific statements made by Yeshua Himself within one version, knowing full well that He would inspire another author to include them at a later date to provide the “whole” when copulated together? Or…. does each stand on its own, expressing a unique and separate aspect of the truth?
(ie) Could Matthew 24:40,41. and Luke 17:34,35,36. actually be describing completely different events? Matthew describing say the “rapture” and Luke describing Yeshua’s return to establish His millennial kingdom and the “angels gathering the tares” as described in Matthew 13:24-30. and 13:37-43.?
I can not say myself with any certainty, though after my recent encounter I suspect that they do.
Nonetheless it is something to take into consideration.
“O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!” (Romans 11:33.)
All of which has let me personally in a state of Trust in my Holy Almighty God.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and full of Grace Savior.
Amen.
A,
The theory among theologians is that the Gospel of Mark was written first based on his relation to Peter, and the fact that there is very little that is not repeated in the other Gospels. The theory is that their was a Manuscript called Q of sayings of Jesus which is unknown to us today, and then the second hand account of Mark, who witnessed the Crucifiction. If you look up The gospel “Q”, you will find this theory. The Gospel of John is the Most unique of the Gospels, and probably the Latest, but it is a firsthand account of John the apostle.
The theoretical Order of the writings is Mark first, Matthew second, which adds to mark’s Gospel, More firsthand details, and then Luke, the Physician who had familiarity with both mark and Luke, But was writing to a specific Audience, Theopholis. Luke specifically states that he was not an eyewitness to the events. To me, this means that the writings of Luke more so than the other Gospels, should be taken with the context of the other Gospels, and not so much as what doctrine should be based on alone. Yes He was inspired by the Holy Spirit, But to state that his description of an event is unique and different from Matthews account, Takes alot more than speculation.
I am not disagreeing with you, Just making you aware of this. I really wish we had this document Q, a journal of the sayings of Jesus. Many suspect Matthew was the scribe among the apostles, and therefore his account is the Most reliable, as he would be familiar with his notations. Others say it was Peter, or John due to his comment in John 20:30-31. We Just do not know?
At any rate, perhaps that is the way we were meant to understand. That we cannot say with certainty, But must believe without seeing.
God bless, sorry to butt in to your conversation.
Hi Dru,
I bet that if you really compared Matthew 24 side by side with Mark 13 and Luke 17:22-37 and 21 that you’d be quite surprised.
Nonetheless, I will look into the matter of the “Q”.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Holy Lamb and KING of kings.
Amen.
A
Yes, that is why I said I am not arguing your point, Merely explaining why Luke’s Gospel is “off”. I happen to agree with your point. Luke even states in verse (1:2-3) not to equate his book with those who are first hand eyewitnesses. If you look up a “harmony of the Gospels”, You will find that Luke 17:20-37 is unique to Luke’s Gospel, and has no parallel in Mathew Mark or John. Just as John’s Gospel is the only one with the high priestly prayer, and upper room discourse. In fact Much of Luke 10:1-18:14 is ONLY found in Luke. That is nearly eight chapters on the Last “Judean Ministry” of Jesus, which is only touched upon by the other three Gospels. I suspect that whoever “Theophilus” was, was familiar with this part of Jesus ministry, therefore, Luke expounds more on this part of his ministry.?
So yes your point is valid, and confirmed by my MacArthur Bible. Mathew 24 should not be equated with Luke 17, My point is that comparing Luke17 to Matthew 13:24-30 should not be done as well, as this has its Parallel in Luke 8:4-18, and is Part of Jesus’ “Galilean ministry.” Whether they are describing similar events, is another whole different argument which I am not getting into.
My point is with comparitive study, not with doctrine of what you have written. Meant to edify and deepen our understanding, and not to discourage it. These apparent contradictions, which are pointed to by atheists all the time, are not contradictions at all, but “harmonies”.
God Bless
Here is a link with some general information on Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source
I “hate” to use this, but….it IS fitting…
“OMG! (lol) DON!”
YES! You “hit it” right on the money!!!
ONLY, one or two, people on various websites, “agree” with what you and I KNOW to be the truth! IF only more people would STOP believing in the “man-made” religions of this world and simply “follow the teachings of Jesus Christ”…they too, would discover what you and I have had “revealed” to us!
Take Care and God Bless!
AND…A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS!
Sincerely,
Bob Wise
that was cute.
lol !!!
Just a word of caution; finding people who agree with pretty much everything you might believe, does not necessarily make it right. Truth is contrary to our nature and only comes through revelation. We can be or believe we are “filled with the Holy Spirit” and still get things wrong. Understanding Truth is an ongoing process that we will never have the capacity to completly comprehend while in this mortal body. This is not meant to be offensive or combative, just a word of caution.
Hi Al,
Or … it may be that God has also revealed the simplicity of Scripture to others as well and that is why they are in agreement. I content for the truth of Scritpure, not my own word. If I see someone misquoting Scripture, then I am going to contend for the truth of God’s word. I have to be carful in this respect because I am expounding on God’s word and I don’t want to be guilty of misrepresenting it, as should be the attitude of everyone. You are correct, understanding truth is an on-going process, but at some point God gives you understanding, else you could never perform the following as one in Chirst.
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
If it was an on-going process so that you could never come to the truth, then who could teach, rebuke, correct or contend for the truth of God’s word? It would always be open for debate! The Scripture that we have been debating is straight forward and needs no spiritual or symbolic explanation, nor is there a formual needed to understand what is being said. God means exactly what He has written! It’s time that those who know the word of God speak out against those who are circumventing and perverting it, because the world is full of false teachers.
Furthermore, God’s word doesn’t change! If it states that Jesus is going to descend from heaven, that the dead are going to rise and the living are going to be changed and caught up with them, then that is exactly what is going to happen. You got people claiming that the resurrection of Christ was spiritual and not bodily, so is that truth up for debate as an on-going process that I can’t know or did Jesus resurrect bodily as Scripture proclaims? Anything that I am not sure of I keep on the side-lines until the Spirit gives me understanding through his word.
The bottom line is that, I am sure and confident about what I am contending for. The mind-set that no one can know what the truth is is baloney, for this is what prayer and study is all about. Unfortunately, there are those who are not putting up with sound doctrine, which Scripture warns us about, and we who know the truth need to be speaking out and contending for it.
The mind set that you have mentioned for example, is why people believe that they can be Christians and yet continue to live same-sex life styles. Why? Because God loves everyone just the way they are and so they believe that that overrides His righteous judgment regarding sin. No repentance needed.
No sir! I will continue to confidently contend for the truth.
Hey Don,
I think you missed the point of what I was saying. The book has been written and His Word is with us, but there are things yet to be revealed (out of His Word) before the end comes. The more we understand His Word the more we realize how much more is really there that He has chosen to hold back to this day and time. Foundational truths are just that, which most of us agree with. Many, in the end, will hold to the historic systematic theology we have been taught and will suffer great loss in the end because they already know it all. Your comment about same sex life styles has nothing to do with this. That is nothing but a smoke screen. Even in Daniel, he was told to seal up the book until the time of the end and look at how much controversy there is now that we are in the endtimes. All that I am saying is there is more understanding to come. If you don’t agree with that and think you understand everything in scripture, then so be it. I will not argue that point with you. Maybe you do, but for some reason I seriously doubt it. But that could pretty much be said about anyone. I didn’t mean to ruffle you feathers, but rather to say, be watchful and open to Ruach HaKodesh. I didn’t realize it would be that controversial.
Be Blessed my Brother
Hi, Accepted! No apologies needed…ever! After all…we are simply discussing “our” points of view…right!
Remember, if you were to put a person on each corner of an intersection, each would have their own individual recount of the an accident…right! Therefore, why would you expect anything different from the Apostles? The amazing thing is…we have 28 books (or more) that make up the Holy Scriptures without a single contradicting entry over…how many years?
Also, take into account, that when Jesus is speaking to them, that He is not ONLY referring to the “End Times” but also, to their perception of them (the End Times) AND, the perception that others will have in between then and now! Therefore, the message IS somewhat confusing…but has been revealed to us in this End Time! And somewhere…He says that the message would be “sealed” until the “End Times!”
Take Care and God Bless!
Dear Don — Jesus did come back in Acts 2 and the Disciples entered into the Kingdom of God. Where God dwells is Heaven – They all entered into the Kingdom of God when they received the Holy Spirit – Not just the presence but a INFILLING of the SPIRIT.
Matt. 6:33 – But first seek ye the Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. The Kingdom of God IS A PERSON – CHRIST – HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS – living IN YOU – When Christ was on the planet HE said HE was in Heaven as well. Jesus was all human and all God in One body – The Scriptures said He came from Heaven. I believe the Word.
St. John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. This kind of Talk is why the carnal religious Israelites thought He was nuts, and basket case, crazy madman. Next verse 14 Jesus is saying As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, Even so must the Son of man be lifted up. Jesus was a human man that serpent on the cross. But when He rose from the dead He was God a quickening Spirit. Man and God kissed and made up. A Spirit cannot be crucified. But a flesh body can.
What is the HOLY SPIRIT if its not the KINGDOM OF GOD> There are only 3 main manifestations of the Same Spirit of God – The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit – these 3 are one. That is the Kingdom of God – The Father is creator yet He is the Holy Spirit as well. Just like the Word is Eternal life.
Father Above them guiding them in O.T – Jesus right among them guiding in a flesh Body and then Holy Spirit IN THEM – guiding in a Spiritual body- bam – That was the plan of Salvation.
John 6:33 It is the Spirit that QUICKENETH; the flesh profiteth nothing: The WORDS I speak unto you, ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE — What kind of life = zoe life Eternal. From the Lambs book of life. Not just the book of life. That’s the whole world. So entering into the Lambs book of life is entering the Kingdom of God. Jesus preached more on the Kingdom of God than anything else.
Lord Bless you Brother Don and I did appreciate your post. May you have a good holiday. Bro ty
Tom,
Yeshua did not come back in Acts 2!
Acts 2 is describing the giving of the Holy Spirit;
“But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” John 14:26.
Yeshua will return the same way that the two Angels told the disciples that He would return in Acts 1:9-11.
“And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
My gosh man, after the Holy Spirit was given on Shavu’ot, Scripture is full of verses that speak of the coming Lords return. How can you possibly reconcile that with your belief that He has already returned?
In John 3:14. Yeshua is referring to Numbers 21:8 and 9. in respects to if they Look, or Believe in Him they will be Saved and Healed.
Also see John 8:28., and John 12:32.
May all be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy Savior.
Don’t worry, dru! You can’t “butt” into a discussion with Jesus! AND, “Thank You, for your input!” I was not aware of these “facts(?)” about the Testimonies of the various Apostles! Take Care and God Bless!
not to mention…Merry Christmas!
Q is totally Hypothetical, so I wouldn’t say “facts”. Feliz Navidad to you as well.
“…cool!”
…exactly! Which is the reason for the (?) 🙂 Yes, I did pick-up on that!
I agree with you “whole-heartedly”…Don! However, once I put forth what I “know”…it is up to the individual to find out for themselves which is why I do not “argue” the point “…I just made…” (if you know what I mean)
Reason being…is if someone is “open” to discovering the “truths” that have been revealed to me…then they will find the truth also as God WILL reveal it to them! The other reason I have for not arguing…is that I am not that great at remembering the exact “scripture” (Book, Chapter, & Verse) of which I am referencing.
In a recent post, I said “Mark Chapters 8-13(?)”…meaning, somewhere within those chapters…right! But, “they” came back at me with Matthew Chapter ##, which had NOTHING to do with Mark Chapter 13…OR if it did…they completely read it wrong!
oh yeah! you responded to that as I understood it also! cool! Yeah, Don! You and I, are definitely on the same page (so far!) lol
Take Care and God Bless!
AND…Have a Merry Christmas!
Sincerely,
bob wise
bro Bobby – It is for sure you all stand with the multitudes. The trinity brothers cannot even figure out the Godhead. Thats why you cannot understand the coming of Jesus Christ. In ANOTHER “mask” as the Hebrew language says about godhead. There is only One Person of Godhead and it is manifested in Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. If God is a Spirit then what is the Holy Spirit. Ghezzzzzzzzzzzz wizzzzzzzzz —
The two angels that is with Jesus is Moses and Elijah. Remember Mount Transfiguration. Moses and Elijah. Moses The Word = with the Spirit-Elijah.
Its SPIRITUAL Brother. They have already appeared in Rev. 11. But I got to go for now. The INflilling of the Holy Ghost is a Comforter cause it Knows the Word and it is the Spirit of Power in you to understand it. And walk the life of the IMAGE of Jesus Christ. Without it – it would be hopeless. The multitudes are mostly all Futurist. So I stand basically alone on these issues most of the time. Being mostly a Preterist. And also knowing a REAL Prophets message not some substitute theologian’s that do not even understand the Godhead. But I love you all enough to stay at it. We just discussing the Word and that is what we have to do to understand it. If you never hear of anything but a Futerist ideaology that is ALL you will ever know. Example in 70 A.D Rome destroyed Israel and thier temple that was an 3 1/2 year period. Its in your history if you want to read it. Its been 2,000 yrs since the N.T was written. We have to try to understand their age as well as ours. If we want a clear meaning of TRUTH.
Lord bless you Bobby — Have a good holiday as well. bro ty
Okay Tom,
Lets look at it like this to see if what you believe is Biblical.
If indeed the Kingdom of God on earth has been established and Yeshua has returned then you would have already been “glorified”, and would see Him “face to face”.
“Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” Romans 8:30.
“For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” 1 Corinthians 13:12.
If you believe that the filling of the Holy Spirit is equal to being the resurrection then you would be like an angel.
“Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” Luke 20:36.
If the Kingdom of God on earth has been established then why isn’t Yeshua sitting on His throne in Zion?
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.” Isaiah 9:6,7. and repeated in numerous other texts.
And why aren’t the nations heading to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Sukkot every year?
“And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.” Zechariah 14:16.
There is so much wrong with the Preterists point of view, that it is difficult to know where to start. it simply leaves too many holes unanswered.
A.
For all of you who have been involved either by reading or participating in this post, we have been having this debate regarding the resurrection and catching away as a literal, future event, the blessed hope of all those who believe, opposed to Tom’s claim that it is not something to be taken literally, but in a spiritual sense with no literal fulfillment. What you may or may not know is his and other’s reasons for this point of view stems somewhat from the following Scripture:
“Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth; this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
Jesus spoke the above Scripture after He had answered the disciple’s question of what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. Jesus then lists those signs that would lead right up to His return. The crux of the error on their part can be found in the last part of the verse.
“I tell you the truth; this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.”
In the verse above they zero in on two words “this generation,” which they interpret as Jesus saying “His generation.” I will paraphrase the verse below in order to clarify their claim:
“I tell you the truth, this present generation that we are currently in, will certainly not pass away until all these signs have taken place.”
In their interpretation, instead of depending on the signs that Jesus mentioned as being the identifying factor of that last generation leading up to His return, they interpret “this generation” as the generation that Jesus was living in when He spoke it. Those who interpret this verse as such must then force the fulfillment of all of the signs that Jesus had proclaimed as having already taken place within the generation that He lived in and therefore, from our time frame all those signs would have already taken place.
However, as the Scripture demonstrates, Jesus said that the way that we would know when that last generation was here is when He said,
“When you see all these things,” that is, when you see all those signs, then know that my return is near. In their interpretation the signs are not what is identifying the last generation, but is identified as the current generation that Jesus was speaking from and then forcing fulfillment of the signs within His generation. If I may paraphrase again, below is what the verse is actually saying:
“I tell you the truth, whichever generation experiences the fulfillment of all these signs that I told you about, that generation will certainly not come to its end until all those signs have taken place.”
One of the signs that marked that last generation was the making of the seven year covenant by that ruler and the setting up of the abomination that causes desolation 3 ½ years later spoken of by the prophet Daniel and Jesus. In Mt.24:15, Jesus quotes Daniel and speaks of the abomination in the future tense. Thirty something years after Jesus had said this, the temple was completely destroyed and that without fulfillment of the abomination being set up in the holy place that both Daniel and Jesus spoke about. Since all Scripture must be fulfilled, the prophecy regarding the abomination must still be a future event that will be set up in the holy place in a future temple.
These types of interpretations paint one into the proverbial corner, so to speak. For by interpreting when Jesus said “this generation” as meaning “His generation,” then one is necessarily forced to find fulfillment of the signs he spoke of which would cause them to look for a spiritual or symbolic meaning of the signs instead of a literal fulfillment in order to support their interpretation.
Yours in Christ
Marianne,
I know I left this link on the other page, but since everyone is here, This is what occurred december 7th/Kislev 24. A “little thing” with huge implications regarding the abomination.
http://rt.com/news/ritual-slaughter-law-poland-558/
one step closer to temple sacrifice reinstated.
Who do you think the “prince” spoken of in Ezekial 44-46 is?
Yeshua.
Right now the eastern gate is closed, until the prince of peace comes.
when he does , he will enter into the gate and enter the temple area.
I disagree….The reason, in 45:22 he offers a sin offering for himself. He is a father of sons (46:16-18), He does not perform any priestly duties (45:16-20), where as The Messiah is the high priest. He worships God at the threshold of the Gate, not entering the inner court (46:2) This says to me That he is a gentile?
I do not think gentiles are allowed in jewish rituals.
the sin offering is for Israel, not himself.
preparing the offerings is a priestly duty, yet he does this.
462 don’t see the point…the priests are just doing their duty….even Jesus worshiped the Father
–
so who do you think the prince is…..besides being a gentile?
45:22 Every translation I looked up, KJV,NIV,Wycliffe,ESV, The orthodox Jewish Bible, etc. says “shall provide for HIMSELF and all the people of the land….”(esv)
The orthodox Jewish bible translates it as follows:
“And upon that day shall the Nasi prepare for himself and for kol Am HaAretz a bull for a chattat ”
Just out of curiousity, what version did you quote?
Along with Strong’s, these are the five primary versions that I cross reference. I am not alone in stating that the “prince” is not the Messiah.
Who this is, I do not know, I can only speculate, hence the suggetion on gentile with question marks. I Know the word Prince (Nasi) is Not the same as what is used in Isaiah 9:6 (sar) in reference to the Messiah as the Prince of peace, or Daniel 8:25 which refers to Jesus as the “Prince of princes”.
46:22 Threshhold is the entry way/doorway to the inner court. If this was Messiah, the highpriest, would he not be worshipping in the inner court. We are not even talking about the Holy place or the Holy of holies. Revelation says that the outer court is for the Gentiles for 1260 days, this is where I took the leap to suggest that he might be the Messiah appointed leader of the “nations”. This is Just a guess though. From what I have looked up, some suggest that he is the leader of Israel the nation, like a governor/captain of the nation. Each of the 12 tribes had “nasi” prince over them, earlier in ezekiel.
Good question though?
sorry. i quoted 45:17
maybe we should get someone proficient in hebrew to translate
45:22
I am getting that “the prince himself will prepare for the people of the land a sin offering.”
I do not see “for himself” there …. לעצמו
I take this to mean that he prepares the offering for Israel, which agrees with 45:17
,, so there must be a reason you are asking….do you feel you can identify the prince..?
I agree, we need someone proficient in hebrew for seeing why “himself” is in that verse.
I brought this up because of the blood sacrifice thing, I was headed in another direction, when this question popped up. Throughout the book of Ezekiel, there are “bad” Princes. This one is not, Yet he does not seem to meet the criteria of the Messiah. I Truly do not know….
Well ain’t that interesting?
Thanks Dru.
Oh and Marianne,
Sorry for not responding to your “Horse” comments earlier on there.
Though it was early in the morning, you were still obviously feeling your “oats”.
Sorry….. forgive me….. couldn’t help it. lol.
well that is a horse of a different color.
or in your response…..
oats of a different grain….
maybe steel cut oats, instead of instant.
That last question is for you too “Accepted”
Hi Dru, & Marianne,
Here’s my 2 cents.
First Dru, I don’t believe that your reference to Revelation 11:2., is applicable here, since they are in my opinion, speaking of a completely different temple.
One being the Tribulation Temple, and then Ezekiel’s or the Millennial Temple.
In respects to the “himself” in Ezekiel 45:22., “עַם”, transliterated as ‘am, (Strong’s 5971). I think I can see how the translators may have chosen this word based upon its definitions, including this “prince” as being grouped together within the same corporate identity. However, that may be not necessarily so.
Regarding who or what this “prince” is, I don’t think that anyone could do anything other than speculate. I do not believe that it is referring to Yeshua though.
Just my thoughts since asked.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Holy Warrior King.
Amen.
word by word, it says….and we have to discern the meaning
and made….the prince….that day….the he…..for (himself?)…..and for…all….the people of the land….a sin offering.
there are times in hebrew grammar / structure that both the noun and pronoun are used.
example
the prince….he…..did this
the bus….it …did that
we would not do this in english, but apparently the hebrew does it for emphasis.
maybe it does mean for himself and others….
בְעַד means for
בַּעֲדֹו means for + ?
word for himself = עצמו , not present in verse.
Hi Marianne and all and Happy Holidays as well!
I haven’t been involved in what you have been discussing, but I have seen enough to know that there was question as to whether this “Prince” was speaking of Yeshua or not and so I went to take a look at the Scripture. It seems to me that this Prince is not referring to Yeshua, but is in regards to magistrate(s) or the rulers over Israel after the exile from Babylon. For example, look at the Scripture in Ezk 45:9
“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have gone far enough, O princes of Israel! Give up your violence and oppression and do what is just and right. Stop dispossessing my people, declares the Sovereign Lord”
The verse above would certainly not be directed at Yeshua, but to the human magistrates who were rulers over the people of Israel. And regarding the following found at Ezk. 45:22:
“On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.”
Why would Yeshua need to provide a bull offering for sin for himself when He himself was and is without sin? Jesus is who the Passover Lamb was pointing to, but because Israel did not recognize Jesus as their Messiah, they consider themselves as still under the Law of Moses and therefore they will begin their blood sacrifices after that covenant is made which initiates that seven year period and that because God will be picking up where He left off with Israel in order to complete the last seven of the seventy ‘sevens’ that was decreed upon them. In short, based on the context of Scripture, I don’t see how it could be possible that the “Prince” referred to could be in reference to the Messiah.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
I tend to agree with you and dru
except that I do not think the prince is a gentile
merry christmas!
yes, I am leaning toward what Don said above, A magistrate/Governor. Who he is, is only speculation. I think a parallel would be “Eliakim son of Hilkiah” (2 Kings 18:18ff, Isaiah 22) The position was that of an intermediary between King and the people.
Merry Christmas to all!
My Brother, Tom…Thank You!
“…Theologian?” hmmm…what’s that? lol
Truthfully, what I have learned is STRAIGHT out of the Bible and what I have gathered from reading discussions on various web sites. The BEST web site I have found throughout the years IS “Proof Directory” which USES the Holy Scriptures to “interpret” the HOLY SCRIPTURES, how quaint…huh!
I “believe” that somewhere within ALL of “OUR” discussions IS the TRUTH which may turn out to be a little bit of everything we have discussed! Just as you and I have pointed out, the Holy Scriptures ARE written for NOT just the “END TIMES” but for everyone for ALL TIME!
Take Care, Tom, and God Bless!
Have a Merry Christmas!!!
Sincerely,
bob wise
Thank You, Accepted! The verse I had “just” read recently is in Matthew or Mark 8:35 when he says “…know what it means to really live…” and Mark 12:25 “…In Heaven we shall be as the Angels…” (paraphrased). If all of this is “spiritual”…then wouldn’t we already be “as the Angels? (in reference to Mark 12:25).”
Hi, dmcal52! Thank You for explaining that to me! I was wondering from where they got their notion that all this had already happened! It has always been “clear” to me, that Jesus IS referring to the “END TIMES!” which are NOW at hand!
The ONE sign that marked the beginning of the “End Times” is when the “Word of the Lord” would be in every corner of the world…which could NOT have been true prior to the establishment of radio, tv, and/or satellites broadcasting the “WORD” to the entire world!
The LAST sign He said to look for is “…wonders in the sky…” Earlier this year, we “seen” a “Triangle in the Sun”…a TRUE “wonder in the sky!”
YES! Jesus is near! I can “feel” Him and “know” that He is NEAR!
“How is it…that you do not?” (not directed at you, dmcal) 🙂
Here is the BEST answer I can find via “Proof Directory”
Re: The Eastern Gate
by Rant » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:47 am
The East Gate and the Return of Jesus.
Neh. 3:29
“…the gate that looketh toward the east: And the glory of the Lord came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”
Ezekiel 44:1-3
1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, which faces east; and it was shut.
2 And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.
3 Only the prince may sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by way of the vestibule of the gate, and shall go out by the same way.”
The “Golden Gate” was located in the East wall of Jerusalem; it was one of eleven entrance gates into the city. Notice in the above picture that this gate is sealed shut. It was sealed up in the 16th century A.D.
A little background on the East gate of Jerusalem: The East gate was walled up by it’s Muslim conquerors (the Ottoman Turks) in 1530 A.D. Notice also the cemetery that has been planted in front of it. Many believe this was done to prevent the entrance of the Jewish Messiah through that gate as was foretold by known Old Testament prophecies. However, Ezekiel prophesied the shutting of this gate itself around 600 B.C. — that it would be shut “because the LORD (Jehovah or Yahweh), the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.”
Jesus entered Jerusalem through the East gate around 30 A.D. (long before it was blocked by the Ottomans) as he came down from the Mount of Olives and entered the temple according to our understanding of Luke 19:28-48. He would have entered through the original gate in the wall which was destroyed with the city by the Romans in 70 A.D. Ezekiel says concerning this closed gate that the “Prince” (which the Messiah is often called throughout the Old Testament and Jesus is called in the New Testament) shall enter it again. Jesus, having entered the city, said that he would not be seen again until Jerusalem acknowledges him (Matthew 23:37-39).
The Eastern gate is presently considered by the Arabs to be their exclusive property. It is sealed up and blocked off. However one day, the Messiah will land on the Mount of Olives, with all His saints, and walk down to and right through the Eastern Gate and into the Temple area.
I am anxious as to what you “think” about this answer!
https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/new-moon-and-eastern-gate/
I will reply to these tonight, Do not have time right now.
Hi Marianne!
So…does this mean He does this after the Tribulation but before we are raised to Heaven, sorry…I didn’t “quite” understand everything as I was reading through it. Essentially, “when” does He do this?
no not after the tribulation because the abomination is part of the tribulation. I think it happens mid way in the 7 years, at the end of the tribulation and before the wrath…but I may be wrong…
there are some verses that make it seem that we leave before it happens…..and others that seem like we leave after…and maybe it is happening as we leave.
not sure.
I will jut be glad to leave
Yeah, Marianne…I’m with you on that one! I “know” I will be happy to leave this world also!
dmcal52 —bobby90247 — Sorry I just have not had the time to post in the last few days. Had 3 children to be with each on a different night. Got to get my office in order. I will get back with you on the sujects we were on when I can and if you still want to talk about them . I’d be more than happy to fellowship with you in and on the word.
Bobby you had a question “…Theologian?” hmmm…what’s that? lol
Well that is a miss spelled word – LOL
You will see a few of them that is for sure on my posts.
Lord bless you all. Bro. ty
Here is a question that I’ll pose for those that may be interested……
Paul had expressed many times that it was his belief that Yeshua’s return was going to be at any minute, and at the very least, in his life time.
For just a few examples;
Romans 13:11,12., Romans 16:20., 1 Corinthians 7:29., Philippians 4:5., 2 Thessalonians 2:2., Hebrews 8:13. 10:25 and 10:37. etc etc. etc.
Don’t you think that it was more than likely that Paul was aware, (by the discussions that he would have shared with the other apostles), of what Yeshua would have said regarding the “fig tree”? We are all familiar with the verse from Matthew 24:32.
“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:”
If indeed this parable means that when Israel becomes a Nation again, then during Paul’s lifetime, how could he believe that Yeshua could return at any minute?
In any case, Peter expressed this same sentiment as well in 1 Peter 4:7. And Peter was actually there at the time, as was James, (Mark 13:3). And James expresses the same in James 5:8 and 9.
John was also there and in 1 John 2:18. he makes a similar claim.
I started wondering about this yesterday, and so chose to delve into the verse and its Greek text. The verse could have very easily been translated as the following;
“Now understand this parable of the fig tree; As soon as its young tender shoot is broken off for grafting comes to pass, being tender and proceeds to grow leaves, know that summer is near.”
Though Scripture itself does indeed encompass duplicity of meanings, I was just wondering if Yeshua was referring more to and emphasizing the Assembly or Church here, rather than Israel? Cornelius and his household would have been the first of those grafted in, (Acts 10), and Paul utilizes this same metaphor as “being grafted in” within Romans 11, where the “root” or Israel is referred to as an “olive tree” rather than a “fig tree”.
I am wondering if the parable that Jotham, son of Jerubbaal, spoke to the men of Shechem, (Judges 9:7-15) could perhaps add some clarity to this as well ?
Any way’s, I just find it interesting that a verse that we now associate as to being so necessary to be fulfilled first, didn’t appear to be so relevant to any of the Apostles.
I’d be interested in hearing any thoughts any may have.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy LORD and Savior.
Amen.
i had the same thought once….esp when I read…..behold, i come quickly….that was 2000 year ago!
Hello accepted,
I have heard this verse as being interpreted as as the fig tree representing Israel becoming a nation, but I personally don’t see this as a prophecy regarding Israel, not to say that it isn’t. I view it as Jesus just using an example to get His point across, that is, when we see the flowers of spring start to blossom we know that summer is coming. In the same way, when people begin to see all the signs happening that he previously listed, then we can know that His return to end the age is near. Though Paul and other apostles were given much information regarding the details involving end time events, I don’t believe that they were privy to when it would take place and therefore, it was always immenent, just as it is for us today.
As a side note, I think that someone, somewhere interpreted Jesus mention of the fig tree as symbolic for Israel becoming a nation and it was just adopted by the biblical communtiy as the norm. I noticed that this same thing was also done regarding the 200 million mounted troops mentioned in Revelation that kill a third of mankind and someone, somewhere interpreted them as representing the kings of the east (for what reason I can’t understand) and then everyone just adopted it as the truth. But the truth is, there is nothing in either of the Scriptures that would identify them as being the same group. It seems that alot of people within the biblical communtiy just jump on the band wagon, so to speak.
Just my thoughts on the subject.
Good answer Don. Especially the part about “similar events” being grouped together as the same thing. China boasted that it could mount an army of 200 million people, so everyone assumed they are the king of the east. Which has stuck as a “dogma” ever since.
Hi Don,
Though there is the possibility of there being some validity in respects to the fig tree being associated with Israel, I agree with your comments above regarding that specific verse.
Thanks for your input.
Be Blessed in Yeshua.
Accepted,
I will give you a full nickel since 2 cents ain’t going to get you much.
I know I have discussed this before with you, but for the benefit of others, I will give my thoughts on this.
There is an “immenency” that comes with dreams, revelations of the HolySpirit and visions which come from the Lord. You will find this throughout the OT Prophets, and the Apostles. The intent of this is to get them to speak what was given them, even at the expense of their reputation, hence the “voice crying in the wilderness”, and the appropriate “scoffing” that is associated with those that do not heed the warning. The Point of All prophecy is to bring about repentence and to prepare for his coming (Matt. 24:44).
“for the time is at hand”, are the words John used. Though many of the events in revelation would not take place until 2000 years later. What this immenency does is turns the focus from “peace and security” or “everything is as it was from the beginning” to the understanding that God’s kingdom is what we should be striving for. “Hastening the coming of the day of God” that Peter speaks of (2 peter 3:8-13)
With that in mind, I believe there are many “fig tree” signs throughout History, which serves this purpose. Many people thought WW1 was the end of the world, till WW2 came along, preceded by the depression/droughts. I am sure that the people who dealt with the black plague thought this as well.
Time is not a consideration for the Holy Spirit, who exists apart from time. If a vision or a word is given to someone, they must speak it as if it would occur tommorrow, Though once they speak they often realize that this is for some time in the future.
What I tell anyone who has a dream or a vision, or a revelation from the Holy Spirit is “shout it from the mountain top” as Jotham did, for it could be for the next day, as was Jotham’s case regarding Abimalech, Or it could be for the next Heavenly day, a thousand years from now.
Isaiah Said; “Here am I send me”, and when he was given the message he asked of the Lord, “How Long, Oh Lord?”. The Apostles asked Jesus “when will these things be?” and for this we have Matthew 24. In Daniel the question is “How long shall it be till the end of these wonders?”
If ever this happens, where we are blessed with a revelation of this sort, our first question should always be to put the revelation into the context of our temporal world. Often this does not get answered till we pronounce the immenent nature of these events. It will keep you humble, if you Know what I mean? This should not diminish the veracity of these revelations, Just as the apostles were not in error when they spoke the words they spoke. Just as we are in the seventh millenial day from creation, yet creation did not cease after six literal days, but is ongoing in our lives today in millenial days. God truly told the end from the very beginning, and once we percieve this it will leave you awestruck.
Sorry, that might have been more like a dime or a quarter, but then we all know about inflation!
I Do not know if this is what you were asking, but hope it blesses none the less.
May God be praised!
Thanks Dru,
I love ya’s bro. 🙂
Be Blessed in Yeshua.
Amen.
Hey Gregg,
Hope all is well with you. Thought I would remark on your post about the fig tree, whether it is referring to Israel or not.
I don’t believe there is any reason to think that Paul or the Apostles would necessarily understand “everything” about the end times. I don’t view Yah as someone who reveals more than we need to know up front, but rather at the right place and time. Case in point: Before the Jews regained possession of Israel in the late 1940’s, you would have been hard pressed to find a Jewish person who believed and accepted Yahshua as Messiah. But from that point on, close to a million Jews have been reconciled to their Messiah, through the “revelation” that Yahshua was and has always been their Messiah . This was not a coincidence or happenstance. The Father had this planned from the beginning and opened the hearts of the Jewish people to receive Yah’s salvation=Yah shua, at the right place and the right time.
What I do believe is that there is another verse that helps explain more fully that the fig tree is most assuredly referring to the nation of Israel. It is the verses in the NT that describes the cursing of the fig tree. There is a lot of conjecture and commentaries concerning why Messiah even cursed the tree.
In Matthew and Mark the story of the cursing of the fig tree is set forth as a lesson in faith. Commentators will take it one step further and warn about the results of not bearing fruit in our walk with Messiah. All of this is valid and true. But there is more to it.
Micah 7:1
7 How sad for me!
For I am like one who—
when the summer fruit has been gathered
after the gleaning of the grape harvest—
finds no grape cluster to eat,
no early fig, which I crave.
Messiah was looking for something that in the natural realm was not there.
Mark 11:12-14 12 The next day, as they came back from Beit-Anyah, he felt hungry. 13 Spotting in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came up to it, he found nothing but leaves; for it wasn’t fig season. 14 He said to it, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again!” And his talmidim heard what he said.
Mark 11:20-25
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
20 In the morning, as the talmidim passed by, they saw the fig tree withered all the way to its roots. 21 Kefa remembered and said to Yeshua, “Rabbi! Look! The fig tree that you cursed has dried up!” 22 He responded, “Have the kind of trust that comes from God! 23 Yes! I tell you that whoever does not doubt in his heart but trusts that what he says will happen can say to this mountain, ‘Go and throw yourself into the sea!’ and it will be done for him. 24 Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, trust that you are receiving it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him; so that your Father in heaven may also forgive your offenses.”
So, what was Messiah actually looking for? Early fruit=before it’s time. Remember when Yahshua asked the disciples who men said he was and Peter answered, You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living Elohim? Yahshua said that this came not about by flesh and blood, but rather from the Father=revelation knowledge. This was what Messiah was looking for from the people of Israel=the nation of Israel, the fig tree. To acknowledge and receive Him as Messiah even though they had been partially blinded. Revelation knowledge was the only way it could happen. It could never take place with earthly wisdom or knowledge. This is why the Gentiles gravitated towards Messiah more than the Jews. This was the early fruit He was craving from the fig tree (the nation of Israel), but never found it.
When Yahshua cursed the fig tree, it withered to its roots. The fig tree nation, Israel, would disappear from sight, but the roots stayed in the ground, alive, waiting for the day when the people of Israel would return to Eretz Yisrael 2000 years later, while Messiah went to the goyim (nations) to gain a harvest among the Gentiles. It was all part of the plan from the beginning. The focus of Yah now is on Israel and Jerusalem since the Jews came back to their land from the diaspora. But that is for a different post.
Now, let’s take a look again at the parable of the fig tree:
Parable of the Fig Tree
32 “Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so, you too, when you see all these things, [b]recognize that [c]He is near, right at the [d]door. 34 Truly I say to you, this [e]generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Would be interested in your thoughts.
Blessings to you in Messiah
Hi Al,
Pray that you well.
Though I previously agreed with what Don had stated above, I also believe that your interpretation has merit too. (It is that duplicity and multiplicity of meaning within Scripture “thing” that I became so aware of during my last encounter.) This has taken my years of study and has more of less, placed me into a position of re-evaluation regarding much of it when it comes to eschatology. (Which I might add, has humbled me significantly too.)
Though I do believe that the Father has provided the fulness of the entire plan, (Isaiah 46:9,10.) without His Divine Revelation regarding specifics, I don’t believe that we as man have the capacity to totally comprehend it all yet. Though I do trust with all of my heart and soul, that He is Sovereign and that All will unfold just as His hearts desire for it to unfold, I personally have been left in a position of complete and utter trust, (whether I have clue one or not).
Thanks for your post Al,
And be Blessed in Yeshua our Precious Savior.
Amen.
Hi, Tom!
…that’s cool. Spending time with family is always a priority!
As for “Theologian?” No, it’s spelled correctly…I just don’t “trust” them! lol
If you take a moment to look up the word, you’ll find that “they” set themselves above everyone else…kinda’ like the “Pharisees!” I prefer to read the Bible for myself and allow God to “reveal” His Word to me in His Way…despite “what” a Theologian says it’s supposed to mean!
It’s kinda’ difficult to explain…as my ultimate belief comes from “within” and never from anything anyone else “says.”
Did I explain myself correctly? I hope you understand…as I will never say that what I believe is what anyone else should believe as we are all different.
Which is why I am on this website (among others) to discuss different “points-of-view.”
Take Care and God Bless!
Hey, dmcal!
Yeah…that’s the way I interpreted it!
AND as far as the “community” comment? WOW…how often does “that” happen today? It seems that when something “new” is put forth…EVERYONE (present company excluded) wants to “jump-on-the-bandwagon!”
“case-in-point” Darwin’s Theory of Evolution! He was a “heroin” addict! Of all people to follow???
…huh!
Praise God Bobby – You know if we could see in the other dimensions “right now” – you would see “Spirits” coming down to every new born child being born tonight. That’s their little angel of life “coming into their flesh body”. We are Theo-phany – Just as Jesus was- All human and yet all God. All LIFE forms are of God. All death forms are of Satan. What gave satan his power over man in death. Man disobeyed his little angel and partook of the tree of death. Man the Soul and flesh had fallen. Soul is the nature of your Spirit. Human spirit takes over or your Heavenly spirit takes over. Your Soul responds to what god you want to serve. Your own self’s spirit or god or the Lords Spirit of GOD. We have a choice of angels to serve.
And also you could see every person that died – Stats say 2 every second. Of every day of every year. Their Spirit angel “rising back to God”. Just like Jesus did. I do not know the number of children born everyday. But it has to be in the thousands of thousands.
There was a “Hereafter” in Book of Revelations – talking about the “Hereafter” after the Church ages. Do you reckon that all those people for the last 2 thousand years that was in those 7 church ages.
Do you think they actually Read the Book of Revelation. After all it must not have been written to them. Just the 7th. age people. Of course I’m acting silly to make a point.
Jesus has been Coming, and Coming and Coming at least 7 times to thousands and thousands of People in the 7 church ages. They loved and died for Jesus Christ . They had to walk in “THIER LIGHT of REVELATION for their day. Or Christ would have never come to them and give them power over death hell and the grave.
When Luther – “COME OUT” Had an “Exodus” out of the Catholic Church. Luthers Message was vindicated and proved to be Gods Message for that hour. He Got Filled with the Holy Ghost and fire. According to history he spoke in tongues and had every gift of the 9 to have. The Basics for His message for that hour was – Justification by Grace” – not the catholic dogma. Or belonging to their church.
Christ “COME TO” HIM WITH A MESSAGE – He seen the Light like Saul did before he became Paul. WHAT WAS THAT LIGHT THAT HIT Paul to cry out. The It was the Voice said Jesus Christ. Oh Praise the Lord.
Now if you wanted to stay in the Catholic Church. Where would that have left you in Luther’s age. Answer – It would have left you in “unbelief”. Luther had the Power and the Word – Elijah and Moses ministry of Jesus Christ in that day. God Vindicated that Angel Messenger’s Message was truth. God spared his life even among all the killings and burning and torture.
If you saw the Light of Jesus Coming for that day. You would have been following Luther’s Message. Faith is believing in something “you cannot see” NOT NATURAL OBSERVATION. The Bible says so.
When the “Word Comes alive” IN YOU. Then you have had a Coming of Jesus Christ. The Word “Cometh” in Rev. 1:7 and many, many other passages. Means a Gathering of the People. To step out and be exposed. Just look up the word come, cometh, Gr. 2064 It’s a “coming” from one place to another. In Public etc. etc. Luther, Paul, Peter etc etc was Never the same after the Appearing of Jesus Christ in the Spirit. Its fire in the soul to burn out all the sin and unbelief. And you do not have to worry about being one of those millions that rise up everyday just to die the 2nd. Death. In the all consuming Fire of God. Do it NOW. The all Consuming fire will NOW come into your soul and burn it completely clean. Ask and you will receive. Seek and ye shall find.
When the Rabbi’s Spoke of the 2nd. Coming of Messiah. They themselves said it would be ” an AGE OF THE SPIRIT “.
We are in the Age of RAPTURE by the SPIRIT NOT THE LAW ANYMORE – or the letter of the Word. People actually got born again in O.T . Moses, Elijah, Enoch, Abraham our father, Jacob , Issac – Jesus said God was the God of the LIVING NOT DEAD>
Then when Jesus Came and died and Rose and gave HIS HOLY SPIRIT INFILLING to those in Acts 2. the unlearned and ignorant could receive it.
But the Rabbi’s and Scribes and Teachers Missed it. Because they could not see HIM Spiritually when they looked at their own Messiah.
Their OBSERVATION was His APPEARANCE did not look right. He did not come as King and David and missed him all together because of the picture they had of him in their “own Imaginations and tradition“. They looked for the Outer appearance ONLY. With their natural eye. They LOOKED on the outside trying to Observe Messiahs coming as a ADVENT that was nothing like they thought.
Cant we have a open enough mind today to think that could be us. They stayed with Moses and the Law – They could not believe their own preaching. Jesus said they everyone dead. What a paradox just like today- we have to deal with the same thing. Called unbelief, NO Faith, Jesus said in His day that a Roman Soldier had more faith than ALL of Israel. Now today the Gentile day is closing if not closed already. Think about it. ———————————- Ty
Hi Tom!
I’m not sure what you are talking about? What you wrote certainly is not intended for me as I “know” God through Jesus Christ and the Holy Scripture. Daily, NO!…hourly, if not, minute-by-minute, I carry the “Good News” to everyone I speak with and speak to God every waking moment of my life here on Earth!
As for the people that have “passed away?” NO, Tom, they are NOT in Heaven, “…they are sleeping and no nothing…” of the world until the day comes when Jesus will resurrect them! Anything and everything “contrary” to that is “Satan’s” doings!
Take Care and God Bless!
Really Bobby?
You know…. I used to hold the same belief years ago, but that has changed. That belief created too much conflict to be able to fully reconcile it with the rest of Scripture.
For example, in John 5:24., Yeshua says;
“Truly I say to you, The man whose ears are open to My word and who has faith in Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he will not be judged but has passed from death into life.” (Life or zōē, “the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate”. That doesn’t sound like “unconscious sleep” to me?)
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8.;
“We are confident, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
(Present or endēmeō, “to be among one’s own people, dwell in one’s own country, stay at home.”)
Now Jude quotes Enoch 2:1., in Jude 1:4., saying;
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.”
Paul echo’s this in 1 Thessalonians 3:13.;
“So that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.”
Paul touches on this again later on in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.;
“Since we believe that Jesus died and “rose again”, so we also believe that God will “bring with Him those who have died in Jesus”.
Now logically then, there is only two (2) ways for this to occur.
1) There is a gathering or rapture where those that are blameless before God our Father are taken at some time prior, so that they can subsequently return with Him.
or,
2) The spirits or souls of those that die and believe in Yeshua, do not die and sleep, but go straight to Heaven.
You are left with either not believing either of the above choices, or believing at least one of the above choices, or in both of the above choices.
I am curious as to which you believe in?
Be Blessed in Yeshua.
Right on Accepted. God bless you for your spiritual insight!
Hi Bobby and all,
In regards to what happens to believers at the time of death, this of course has been one of those very controversial subjects. However, I have found that if one chooses to believe that the body, soul and spirit are sleeping in the dust of the earth, then they run into a wall and have to circumvent all of the Scriptures that would show conscious awarness of the soul after death. I have a document that I created regarding most of the Scriptures that would support that it is the body that is sleeping in the dust of the earth, where the spirit/soul is active and aware. I’ll post the Scriptures here for your consideration.
Consciousness After Death
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”(Eccl: 9:5)
The Scriptue above is the most common one used to support that the body, soul and spirit sleep after death.
II Corinthians 5:6-8 –“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”
Here, Paul states within the Scripture that, to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body, that is dead, is to be in the Lord’s presence. The language supports immediacy once ones’ soul leaves the body.
Phil.1:22-24 – “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”
Here, Paul is writing to the Philipian’s and he says that he is torn between remaining in the body which would mean fruitful labor for him and as well as a benefit for the Philipian’s, opposed to wanting to depart from his body, which would result in immediately being in the presence of Christ, which he said was better by far than remainng in his body.
Phil.2:9-11 – “Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
In the Scripture above, notice that reference is made regarding those who are under the earth, that is in Hades, who will bow down and confess with their tongues that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. Hard to do when you are unconscious and unaware sleeping in the dust of the earth.
Luke 16:19-31 – “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
There are those who refer to the event of Lazarus and the rich man as a parable and that in order to support their belief that there is no consciousness after death. But this event does not read like a parable in that, real names are being used, Lazarus, Father Abraham, Moses, Hades, etc. The event shows Lazarus and the rich man dying and then afterwards both are found within the heart of the earth, the rich man being in Hades in torment in flame and Lazarus in a place of paradise with Father Abraham, which was adjacent to Hades and separated by a wide ravine or gulf so that neither could pass to either side. Both the rich man and Father Abraham (who are both dead) are having a coversation, they can see, feel and are aware of their surroundings. So, from this Scriptuer we can come to the conclusion that, one, there is counscious awarness of the soul/spirit after death and two, that there is a place of temporary punishment in flame for the unfaithful, which is Hades, where they waith until their resurrection before God at the great white thone judgment.
Luke 23:39-42 – “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him, ‘Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!’ But the other criminal rebuked him, ‘Don’t you fear God,’ he said, ‘since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.’ Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ’I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.’ ”
In the Scripture above, we know that both Jesus and the repentant theif both died that very day well before sunset, which would have begun the passover. Yet, after the man says to Jesus, “remember me when you come into your kingdom,” Jesus says, “today you will be with me in paradise, which was the same place that Lazarus and Father Abraham were at in the previous Scripture. If they both died before sunset, how could Jesus promise him that that very day he would be with him in paradise. If your unconscious and unaware in the dust of the earth sleeping, then you would not be able to experience anything either good or bad, wouldn’t you agree?
Matthew 17:1-3 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.
Here, we see Moses and Elijah meeting and speaking with Jesus on the mountain where he was transfigured into his glorified state. If when we die and we are sleeping in the dust of the earth, what is Moses doing up? Surely Elijah has never died, but we do know for sure that Moses did, yet there he is speaking with Jesus.
Revelation 5:2-3 – “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”
Here in John’s vision of heaven, we see an angel calling out to see who
is worthy to open the scroll and again we have reference being made to those under the earth (in Hades) who along with those in heaven and on those living on the earth, are not worthy to open the scroll.
Revelation 5:13: – Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
Yet another reference to those in under the earth in Hades.
Revelation 6:9–10 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
In the Scripture above, John sees the souls under the altar in heaven who had been slain on the earth and they can see, hear, are conversing and are given white robes to wear. Pretty active for dead guys who know nothing, don’t ya think?
As for me personally, according to Scripture, if I was to die today, I would have complete confidence that my soul/spirit would depart from my body and would go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, where with all the other souls, I would be looking forward to the resurrection in order to be reunited with my newly resurrected body. After reading all of the Scriptures that support conscious awarness after the death of the body, there is really only one conclusion that satistfies Scripture for both views and that it is the body only that sleeps in the dust of the earth, while the soul/spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of Christ.
Yours in Christ
Bro. Bobby — I was not aiming that post at you or anyone. It was not meant to be personal at all.
Bro. Accepted — thanks for the backup scriptures – that was really nice of you – are we a team now – Hey just joking with you. keep your cool intact. ty
Hi Tom,
I’m really not sure what your little “quip” there above is referring to, (nor do I really care to), I didn’t bother to read what you wrote.
As I have expressed before, it is my opinion how you interpret the Word, and what you write regarding that interpretation, is mumbo-jumbo.
The below provided by Paul, (2 Timothy 2:15-18), will suffice as my response.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance , charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers .
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred , saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
For further clarity…. here is the same text from the NIV.
14 Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18 who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
A.
Reference:
For example, in John 5:24., Yeshua says;
“Truly I say to you, The man whose ears are open to My word and who has faith in Him who sent Me, has eternal life; he will not be judged but has passed from death into life.” (Life or zōē, “the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate”. That doesn’t sound like “unconscious sleep” to me?)
Answer: Solomon noted that the dead have no awareness, nor are they in some other state of consciousness: “For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing . . . for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going” (Ecclesiastes 9:5
, 10). The person who has died is unconscious and unaware of the passing of time.
Reference:
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:8.;
“We are confident, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
Answer:
“WE ARE CONFIDENT AND WILLING RATHER…” as in “…I’d RATHER be fishing…” than to be at work (or whatever)! Is that so hard to understand??? Where would you prefer to be? Here on Earth? OR In Heaven?
Reference:
Paul touches on this again later on in 1 Thessalonians 4:14.;
“Since we believe that Jesus died and “rose again”, so we also believe that God will “bring with Him those who have died in Jesus”
Answer:
Those that died in “…the Name of…” Jesus Christ!!! I don’t remember reading anywhere in the Holy Scriptures that Jesus Christ “ate anyone whole” that they ended up dieing inside of him…duh!
Reference:
Now Jude quotes Enoch 2:1., in Jude 1:4., saying;
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.”
Answer:
For the following…Read Mark 13:27
#1 Answer: “…the Dead shall be raised “incorruptible(?)” (and/or without sin) upon His return “first” then those that are still alive shall meet Him in the clouds, “changed” in the “blink-of-an-eye”, receive new bodies, and live forever in Heaven.
#2 Answer: Mark 13:27
And therefore, when Jesus returns, “…He shall raise the dead first…”
Take Care and God Bless!
Hi Tom! Don’t worry…discussion is ALL good!
Heck…we’re gathered together in His Name…right!
And “bottom-line”…THAT’S WHAT COUNTS!
Forgive me…BUT, I prefer this answer…
http://forum.proofdirectory.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20985
Hi Bobby,
Have you ever been “in Love”?
If so….. did love itself “eat” you?
I am going to assume that the comment that you made above was a minor attempt at humor, rather than an actual inability to comprehend the language.
I will read the rather lengthy link that you provided to substantiate what it is that you believe, but will leave you these verses regarding the subject, to take into consideration in the meantime. (I’ll provide them from the New International Version)
1 Thessalonians 5:9,10.
9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us so that, “whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him”.
2 Timothy 1:10.
10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
1 Corinthians 15:45.
45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
Romans 5:14,15.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
John 5:21.
21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.
John 6:57,58.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.”
So, from the above passages of John 6:57,58., (which are Yeshua Himself speaking), we can see that “Yes” the forefathers and what is described within the Tanakh regarding the dead is true. But then Yeshua came into the picture and everything changed. I believe this is why Paul utilized the Greek “koimaō” many times to describe the physical state of death, rather than “nekros”. It was to make a definite distinction between the two states for the reader to understand the difference.
After Yeshua died and was resurrected, all that believe in Him, (not that He ate them), will be raised “spiritually” up to heaven. Then those accounted worthy will return with Him for a newly resurrected spiritual body.
Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy KING of kings.
Amen.
Accepted well thank you – You just staying true to your character and attitude.
It’s easy to love those that love you but its hard when its the other way around right.
But I will love you “IN CHRIST and lift you up to the Lord anyway. You cant stop that.
Tom,
As I have said before, I’ll say again, I don’t dislike you, (heck I don’t even know you), however I strongly disagree with your hermeneutics.
The epistle’s of the Apostles that we read today were for the most part knowledge that would help the fledgling early church’s ability to lead a more Christian life style, and as well, answers to questions that they had posed and required knowledge about. These people were mostly uneducated and certainly not scholars.
The Apostles wrote this information in the most easily understandable way possible for them to understand. It would make no sense whatsoever for any of the Apostles to attempt to further the Kingdom Of God by writing them solely in such a cryptic fashion, and have what is meant to be literal, be taken only spiritually.
Just my opinion.
Be Blessed as well.
From your post Bobby – Just a reply – and thank you for you nice post. I sure appreciate that. Here is my thoughts in reply to your post. About being Raised, Raptured, Wrath.
#1 Answer: “…the Dead shall be raised “incorruptible(?)” (and/or without sin) upon His return “first” —-
Ty answer = yes because the “alive” saints are not dead yet. ” and you also can have an incorruptible man while you are still living. Its your INNER MAN Not the OUTER MAN – that is what Paul is talking about.
2 men living in you – the flesh man and the Spiritual man. One is going to be the “Dominate” one sooner or later. One has to die in order to let the other one rule. The humanity of the flesh will destroy the influence of the celestial man and or vica-versie. That is What I really believe Paul was talking about in 1 Cor. 15.
Then those that are still alive shall meet Him in the clouds, “changed” in the “blink-of-an-eye”, receive new bodies, and live forever in Heaven.
Ty answer -Yes I sent in the explanation of “Clouds” its the Atmosphere of the HOLY SPIRIT. You are “caught up” IN Christ – That is the ANOINTING. Raised up from the Dead man that you use to be. — Its a Resurrection- Jesus said “I am” = the Resurrection and life – “I am” is the Person of Jesus Christ – just like in Matt. 6:33 seek ye first the “Kingdom of God and HIS righteousness. The Person of GOD is ONE Character — Not 3 different Characters. Notice Char – acter – Jesus acted and Spoke the same as God did. Same with Holy spirit. Jesus had a flesh man to deal with just like we do. He mortified in all the way at Gethsemane.
Yes LIVE people can have a Resurrection= Born Again while they are living on the planet being alive in Christ. Then when they die they are with Christ without the flesh Body but with a Celestial body that will look just like the one you was in Flesh. Just like Jesus was known of his disciples.
What it is i think – its too simple for most minds after hearing so much propaganda that is wrong thinking.
When I got Re-born – Resurrected – Re-generated into a “Brand New Creation” – Yes My BODY changed then as well. I wanted to use it for the Lord. Not to sin with. Pretty simple. The Holy Spirit transformed the flesh man so I could serve my Master Jesus Christ.
ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Now my body glorifies my Lord, worships Him, He cleaned it up for me. By HIS power. It took a transformation – from a Worm to a Butterfly = Rapture – Resurrection from being grounded to the World — but after Christ it starting flying in the heavenlies. Praise God
Below here I could Preach on for about a week. So this is just a real quick heading to read below
#2 Answer: Mark 13:27 – And therefore, when Jesus returns, “…He shall raise the dead first…”ty – of course the dead would rise first – they already died. But we that are still alive and remain can also have a resurrection as Paul taught us.
27. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Send = send out – of separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken – Yes this is a gathering together of his Sons – separating them into the “Kingdom of Heaven” not of this world anymore. Defined below
575 apo from Apostello = Where we get the Word Apostle which means sent one also means Angel- Apo is from the Word Revelation.
1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
1d) of a state of separation of distance or time – yes we go from a time being to a Eternal being in the Holy Spirit. Time is no more when you have Eternal life – this is also are escape from the wrath of God.
Your natural man the flesh – will go back to clay and dust cause it is a time piece. The celestial man is Eternal.
Most people automatically think Jesus return is the Rapture or Second Coming. But Like I was saying in above message. 2 people die every second. They are definitely ” Resurrecting or Rapturing back to God every day and every minute and second of the day. From whence they Came.
When you die -Your Life has already “spoken your judgment . Your life is a “Written” “Epistle” read of all men. God knows that as well. And the Spirits all go back to God. To be destroyed, or to Eternal life. God is the “consuming eternal fire” — He is the ONLY ETERNAL fire there is.
No White Stone Throne waiting. Its no more stone than the little white stone you receive when you got Born again. Rev. 2:17. The Stone is the Rock of your Revelation of Faith or doubt. What rock does the world stand on. And what Rock does the Believer stand on. That is your judgment and it is final if you die lost and undone without God or His Son.
And as for the “wrath” of God – I do not believe that we are appointed unto wrath. If you have been Resurrected from “dead Works” you are promised Salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ.
ROM.8: 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to COME = 3195 mello (through the idea of expectation); to be on the point of doing or suffering something – This does not sound like a rapture to me.
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Ty=This is our promise of not having to go through wrath. Being destroyed. And having to suffer as sinners do on Earth and after death.
While alive – Paul said to “MORTIFY” that flesh man. Kill it. That is a process and takes God’s Grace to do. But Jesus did it. And He gave us the power to do it as well. He expects us to OVERCOME all things.
Lord Bless you Bobby – And I appreciate your post back to me. When I write a post its like preaching to a congregation and that is a habit. I am a Preacher. But I do not single out people to hurt their feelings nor to make them mad. If it makes someone mad it is not cause Im trying to. I just trying to Preach the Gospel the way it is suppose to be preached to my knowledge and revelation . We have enough of dis-graceful preachers. I want to be just the opposite. And God made me this way. I cannot help it. But I can say with Grace and Love Im only interested in One Race and that is the Human Race. Any body that will listen I will try to persuade them to the Word always. Love you “IN CHRIST” ty.
dmcal52 – very good post above. On soul sleeping. So true – I do not know how anybody could miss it now. ty
Hi Tom!
Don’t worry about me…we are talking about the same “race”, God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Scriptures…AND that IS the important part! As you said in your post(s), you are putting forth what “YOU” believe…just as I put forth what “I” believe! Is either of us wrong? NO! As we are simply doing what Jesus asked of us “…to gather together in His Name…”
The Lord truly works in mysterious ways to “our” simple minds for as I was writing this, it occurred to me that we are “acting” as His “Disciples” did when Jesus was on Earth. His Disciples constantly asked Him to “explain” what He meant, and here we are…2,000 years later, doing the “same thing!”
I am not here to attempt to “change” your beliefs, but simply to put forth “my” beliefs. At the end of the day…we still “…believe in the same God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Scriptures…” right!
AND, that is so much more important than those following, Satan’s Cult of “Islam!”
Take Care and God Bless!
Your Brother In Christ,
bobby wise
Amen Bro. Bobby – Thank you for your testimony and thoughts. Lord bless your heart and soul. —- ty
Hi Al!
My “belief” IS this pertains to “us” in the End Times in reference to His (Jesus) return after we have seen the “signs of the End Times” take place (i.e. First sign, “…word of the Lord spoken in every corner of the Earth, satellites/internet broadcast the “word” to every corner of the Earth…onlhy recently; Last sign, “…wonders in the sky…”, “Triangle in the Sun”…You Tube, earlier this year among other “wonders”). AND “we” are part of the generation that WILL see His return!
Prior to this “day”, this same passage may have referred to other “things” happening just as you remarked above. Doesn’t matter what “else” this Scripture means, this IS what “I” believe!
Take Care and God Bless!
Hi Bobby,
Who are the “us” that you referred to?
Hi Al, Accepted, Bobby, Marianne and all,
So, let’s look at the verse in question:
“Now learn the lesson from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”
In the Scripture above, the emergence of spring is compared to the blossoming of the fig tree. In the same way that we can know that when we see the fig tree or any tree blossoming, then we can know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these signs that Jesus just mentioned, then we can know that Jesus is near. So the comparison is fig tree in relation to the signs and summer in relation to the Lord’s return. The signs are:
• False Messiah’s and prophets
• Nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom
• Famines, disease and earthquakes in various places
• Abomination of desolation set up in the holy place
• False Messiah’s and prophets performing great signs and miracles
• Signs with the sun, moon and stars
Fig tree blossoming = signs, summer = Jesus return
Looking at the Scripture above, there is nothing in the context that would relate the blossoming of the fig tree as representing Israel becoming a nation. Neither is there anything in the context that would point us to another Scripture to support that claim. The fact is that, the blossoming of the fig tree is specifically stated as comparative to represent the signs that would precede Christ’s return. To make the blossoming of the fig tree to symbolically represent Israel becoming a nation would be to read into the Scripture something that is just not there. I put this interpretation in the same category as when Peter said,
“But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
Regarding the Scripture above, you have people that have interpreted it as a way of calculating prophet time-lines, when it was never meant for that and therefore, the read into Scripture something that is not there. Peter was simply stating that God is not affected or restricted by time as we are.
So to recap, where people are trying to make the blossoming of the fig tree refer to Israel becoming a nation, the Scripture is clear in that it is comparative to the signs that will immediately precede his return and Israel becoming a nation is not one of them.
I guess another way to look at this is the signs are happening now, and coincidentally, Israel became a nation in 1948.
The signs could conceivably happen without Israel becoming a nation, but if they did, then the Messiah would return to a bunch of arabs, instead of returning to redeem an existing Israel.
Hi Marianne,
In regards to the signs happening now, I would have to disagree. And the reseason for that is because, we haven’t seen any of the events described by the four horses. I believe that Jesus is mentioning the seals in Mt.24:
Mt.24:7 – Nation shall rise against nation, kingdom against kingdom
Rev.6:4 – Red horse rider takes peace from the earth
Mt.24:7 Famines and earthquakes in various places.
Rev.6:5-6 Black horse, famine
Furthermore, I believe that the 1st seal/white horse, represents the revealing of the antichrist and we have not yet seen him, unless one would make the claim that the rider on the white horse comes out in secret, but I personally don’t think so. Also, though the world is always in turmoil somewhere, I believe that the rider on the red horse takes peace away from the entire earth and therefore, we have also not seen this seal. And lastly, at the 4th seal, a fourth of the earth’s population is killed as a result of those previous seals and I believe that the reference implies that this takes place within a short period of time opposed to decades or centuries, and that because a fourth wouldn’t be noticeable over that length of time. When is specifies a fouth, I believe that it is speaking in regards to the existing population at the time when it takes place. So personally, I believe that the 1st seal has yet to be opened and that we approaching that event quickly.
you don’t see the antichrist, the wars, the famines and the earthquakes?
i guess i see things in a different way
Have you seen the antichrist? The one who is going to proclaim himself to be God? The one who makes the seven year covenant? The one who will set up the abomination? I have not seen him. As I said, we do see commotions on earth, but not to the extent of nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom. We have not seen total peace taken from the earth, nor have we seen a fourth of the earth’s current population killed by famine, disease and wild beasts of the earth. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to be unprecedented events or as Daniel and Jesus put it, “A time of great destress such as the world has not seen. Since that antichrist is the first seal and he has not yet revealed himself, then we cannot be experiencing any of the other seals, as they must follow the first seal. For sure we are seeing people who are proclaiming to be Christ, but not the one who is to rule over the earth with the false prophet who performs those satanic miracles, signs and wonders.
I look at it in a broader way.
According to the book of John, the spirit of the antichrist has been around for 2000 years. And yes, there is a personality right now who I believe will reveal himself as the final one.
there have been wars, famines, pestilances and martyrdom for 2000 years also. it will just climax soon.
I agree with what you are basically saying. But I think the white horse is here already….but not revealed officially.
we do have war…..which will accelerate….if the dollar collapses, we will have the black horse…..
Hi Don and all.
Well within the context of that particular verse I would agree with your explanation, however that would not negate that I don’t also believe what Al has proposed.
For just one, from which there would be numerous other examples, lets take a look at this text.
“Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree. For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant; Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.”
The above is Isaiah 56:1-7., and the context would be regarding the keeping of the Sabbaths.
Now lets look at this text.
“Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, [are] these. For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour; [If] ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt: Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever. Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations? Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen [it], saith the LORD.”
The above is Jeremiah 7:4-11., and it’s context consists of not worshipping idols, and instead doing what is right to your neighbour, then your blessing shall be the land that the Father had given and promised forever.
So…… what’s my point you ask?
Well, for years and years it was my belief that when studying the Word that context was everything. That critical exegesis and proper hermeneutics’ simply couldn’t be performed correctly without utilizing context. With that in mind, each word above within their respective text is applicable to convey its meaning and intention, and to cull any one singular verse from either one of the the above, (let alone two), and to utilize them to express a particular truth would appear to be contrary to the rule of context.
Yet that is exactly what Yeshua Himself did in Matthew 21:13., Mark 11:17., and Luke 19:46. from the above passages. The New Testament is full of conformational Scripture that has been culled out verses from the Tanakh, relinquishing their original context to establish a newly understood truth.
With man we appear to only comprehend a singularity, one or the other, black or white. However by numerous demonstrative passages, the Word can and is comprised of duplicity and multiplicity of meanings of which only God can fully comprehend, especially in regards to eschatology.
May all be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Worthy Lamb.
Amen.
Regardless of all that has been said, anyone would be grasping at straws to make the fig tree represent Israel becoming a nation, when it is only being used as a comparative to the signs preceeding Christ’s return, which are all listed. If you guys want to believe that, that’s up to you, but I personally would never teach this as a truth or even as a possibility.
Hey Don,
I just want to convey something to you. You have explained your approach to understanding scripture. My understanding of what you have said is that scripture is a simple, literal interpretation so that basically all can understand it. I agree with that. In what I wrote above I agreed with the other commentaries and explanations given for the cursing of the fig tree. It all has relevance and truth. But to stop there leaves us without depth of understanding. If you are comfortable with that, which the vast majority are, then that is your choice. Below is a link that explains the different levels of interpretation that Israel understood to be right and true, in the very scriptures Yah gave to Israel for the whole world to be enlightened with.
http://paulproblem.faithweb.com/pardes.htm
Are we not kings and priests before our Elohim?
Proverbs 25:2
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter
In regards to coincidence, there is no such thing in Yah. Coincidence is not a kosher word. In His kingdom, things don’t happen randomly.
I might be wrong, but it seems that drawing outside of the lines that man made religion has burdened us with, makes you uncomfortable and unsure of the basics of what is true or not true. I am honestly not being condescending here, just saying there is more than what you are allowing yourself to see. I hope you don’t take this in the wrong way. That is not my intent. I hope for you and all only the best and highest that Messiah has given us.
Love you as a brother
“Those” living at/in the End Times.
Hey Bobby,
You are right. All of these things that are coming will affect everyone on earth for the simple fact that we are all here. But that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. Yisrael becoming a nation again and the signs that will accompany His return are all in agreement. It does not have to be one or the other. In the histroy of the world, Yah has proven that He is capable of being a multi-tasker!
Remembering…these passages are ALSO referring to the “tribe of Israel” which IS scattered throughout the world. Thus, Israel, the country HAS BEEN “withered-up” for quite some time and produced nothing for a long time. But the Tribe of Israel has “lived-on” and MUST “BLOSSOM” once again in order to “slay” this Satanic “Cult of Islam!”
“…if you follow my drift!”
Nice “post” Accepted!
I agree with you, as Jesus said that “…these things would be hidden…” until the End Times. (paraphrased) Jesus SAID “we” would NOT understand the full meaning of the Scriptures until this time we are in right now!
“IF” we look at the followers of “Islam” as being “dead” to Christ…then about a fourth of the World’s population is already gone!
“IF” you look at it from that “standpoint!”
Hi Bobby,
Really Bobby? That ain’t going to fly and that because it is not referring to Islam being dead, but is due to literal famine, disease and the wild beasts of the earth just as the Scripture states. If you want use that annolgy, then it it would be a heck of a lot more than a fourth of the earth’s population. The Scripture is speaking of literal famine and disease, not the spiritual loss of those faithful to Islam.
No, not really! Like I said “IF”…
🙂
I “stick” with my original beliefs…
I like what you pointed out “…Nation against Nation, famines, disease, and wild beasts…” That last one, certainly…has NOT happened! Unless of course you were to consider “terrorists” as “wild beasts???”
“My BAD!”
Hello ALL!
Here is an “excerpt” from a post about Islam and the Anti-Christ…It explains the “pale” horse and the misconception of color…
The pale horse went south and Death sat on him and Hell followed him and he was given power to kill with the sword and hunger and the beasts of the world. The southern hemisphere contains most of the poverty stricken nations. War, crime, revolution, hunger and beasts of the earth are more prominent in the more backward nations of the third world. The last 100 years have seen more death than the entire history of man (wars, abortions, etc.) The passage in Zechariah splits the pale/green horse in two; into the grisled and bay horses. That makes this prophecy easier to understand in that it has two components: Islam and Death. A very interesting thing about this horse is that the meaning of the original Greek word is interpreted as “pale” in the King James Bible, but the word chloros (khlo-ros’); also means greenish, or pale green. This word (chloros) is also used in 3 other places in the Bible: Mark 6:39, Revelation 8:7 and Revelation 9:4. In all three of these other places it was interpreted correctly as green. This horse was also given power over the fourth part of the earth. Since we know these horses are spirits, it is very, very interesting that the color of Islam is green (their flags, etc.), and that there are 1.48 billion Muslims (Islam followers) in the world today. That’s almost exactly one fourth of the world population. This horse went south; and 96.5% of the world’s Muslims are in the southern hemisphere, in Africa and Southern Asia. Can Islam be defined as “Death”? I’ve seen arguments that the terrorists are only the “radicals” and poor Muslims being recruited, but if you look at the history of the men that hijacked the planes on 9/11, they came from middle class and wealthy families. The attacks that are happening everywhere, the suicide bombings, the masses of Muslims chanting, “Death to Israel, death to America”, are not only the poor and radical, it is the mindset of Islam as a whole. Look at what happened recently in Palestine. They knowingly elected a terrorist organization into their government! And, given what we know about Islam and how it will be used by the Antichrist, the term “death” here may be referring to the “second death” of Revelation where those that are not saved come before God on judgment day.
This is the “link” for the full post:
http://www.bibleprophecyandtruth.com/notes/islam.aspx
Take Care and God Bless!
The notion of a time changing event is quite possible, after all Yah is in a different no time or space place. We are the ones subjected to time and space, not Him. Was it this way all the time or did it happen when Adam failed to shamar (guard) the garden and they were ‘kicked out’?
One thing I am certain is that there will be no ‘rapture’ of any kind whatsoever before the tribulation happens as Yeshua reveled in Mat 24. We, the true followers, will be protected from the worst plagues just as in Egypt Israel was protected.
Please understand Israel is STILL the bride, not the Roman adulteress that has tried to replace her. The nations are supposed to be grafted into Israel, not the other way around. That means the gentiles that profess ‘Jesus’ as their savior have to do what the prodigal son did leaving behind the world and the way of the adulteress and return to their Hebrew roots.
I agree. the church cannot become part of the bride unless it joins back to the vine, and walks in obedience.
The upcoming blood red moons of Passover and Succoth (Tabernacles) for 2014 and 2015 and the total solar eclipse between them should indicate to us that something big is about to happen soon. The Almighty made the stars and moon as signs (moed) for His people. His 7 feasts, sacred appointment or rehearsal times, or moedim, were made for Israel as signs or guide to His unfolding plans. Due to the changes made by Rome, the Christian church has, for the most part, lost sight of this. The Christian church, if it is truly grafted onto the natural olive tree, needs to understand the value of what the Almighty in His infinite wisdom has established from the beginning. These are the sign posts that can’t be ignored. They are to be rehearsal times till Yeshua returns with His army of angels to establish His kingdom here on earth.
The Christian component of Yah’s congregation must understand and return to its roots. Only then will they be able to arouse jealousy in its brother Y’hudah. It’s time for the prodigal son to return home.
Hey Susana,
Great comment. I agree 100%!!
Be Blessed in Messiah Yahshua
There are doctrines that need to be preached on and need to be studied by the body of Christ : Perfection> how many places in the New testament speak of perfect, or perfection ? Jesus said to be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Paul would at times end his letters with be perfect. The perfect remain in this earth. Yes, we will be changed, in a twinkling of an eye- but we will meet the Lord in the air, and be with Him. He will rule and reign on this earth with His people. So we are to go on into perfection- very clear in New testament and in the Old. Noah was found perfect in his day and Noah remained in the new world after the flood.
So growing up in the fruits of the Spirit is becoming complete in Christ.
Its mandatory- its a commandment- but its still up to us to decide whether we wish to go on into perfection. In the tabernacle example, there are the 30 fold, 60 fold, and 100 fold type of Christian. Not choosing to grow and ask the Lord to complete His work, will cost us a lot. The bride of Christ will grow up into that perfection and will be taken to the wilderness. Is the wilderness some place in the midst of USA ? The USA is the new Jer USA lem. Her remnant will not take the mark of the beast, thus will be beheaded for Christ’s sake. Read the king James bible- know that we are Israel and accept all the bible says.
hi judy
good point. most are happy to settle for mediocre, not perfection, when perfection should be our goal and highest aspiration.
Hi Judy,
You make some good points, but then you get off into the weeds. The USA is not Yerushalyim, either old or new, and will never be. The gentile christian church is of Israel, but is not Israel exclusively. You sound like you are speaking of replacement theology. If I am wrong about that, please disregard the previous sentence. If I am right, go back to square one and start over again. Perfection “begins” with basic understanding and knowledge of who Messiah is and the purpose for what has happened from the beginning and those things which are yet to come. You can accept forgiveness of sin without knowing these things, but to expound on doctrine and give your resource as “Read the king James bible” is laughable. I am not trying to be rude, and mean no offence, but those are ridiculous statements.
Shalom Judy, the Tanach (“Old ” Testament), which are the ONLY scriptures Yeshua and His disciples used, consider that ‘perfection’ to walk in the teachings of the Eternal, His Torah. These are the teachings exemplified by Yeshua, not according to man’s interpretation but according to The Way He saw Father do, John 5:19, John 8:31-32.These are the teachings that today, for the most part, the Romanized church won’t follow, following instead the Babylonian system that Rome, as the Mystery religion, has taken to the world (more like a political system behind curtains). There must be a return of the Gentile church to The Way, a return to the roots of the faith; the prodigal son must come home.
The promises given avinu Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are true and will ALL be fulfilled. Israel will be given the promised territory from the Nile to the Euphrates and those of us who truly follow His Way eventually will be taken up from the four confines of the earth to the promise land. When Yeshua returns after the tribulation it will be with His army of angels. Meanwhile we will be protected somehow, the same as Noah and his family the same as Israel was in Egypt. All of them were on earth while their tribulations took place.
There is no US replacing anything. On the contrary, this country better repent soon and do some serious teshuvah. While it is true that there are many Jews and ‘half baked cakes’, Ephraimites lost among the nations in the US, they are also found all over the world. Latin America alone is filled with Israelites, mostly from Judah and Levi and thus technically Jews, whose ancestors were pressured into ‘converting’ to Catholicism, the religion invented by Rome to suit its political purposes. The US has no exclusive calling other than it has freedom of religion and it did give refuge to Jews, for it is written those who blessed Israel shall be blessed (Gen 12:3). Israel, not the US, or any other country or group of people is the chosen kehilat or congregation of the Almighty. Of Israel are the promises, not of the nations. Israel as the ONLY BRIDE of Messiah Yeshua is the NATURAL olive tree onto which the wild olive branches (gentiles or lost Israelites) are supposed to be grafted, not the other way around.
It was Israel that was taken into the wilderness, immersed in the Red Sea, given heavenly manna, given water from the rock, and led in the desert to the living word, Yeshua the living Torah, which is our marriage contract. No bride of Yeshua can walk in a different way for there is only one way and that is the same way spoken of by the prophets of old, The Way, which is what the Jewish followers of Messiah called themselves till the Romans in mockery changed their name to ‘Christians’ as if Yeshua was known BACK THEN as Christ given the fact that even Cesar was a Christ (as was Serapis Crestus, whose followers were also called Christians). What Rome did is called replacement theology and it is purely of satanic origin as that is what satan, the adversary, tried to do from the start; replace the Almighty.
For one ,I first of all believe to be true is the fact that the sum/entirety of God word is truth. Psalm 119:160…that being said I like to look at the word as an investigator to have all evidence and not just what I have been shown by other people who try to copy and paste and say ” well this is what it means”! or to have one bible verse to cancel out 15 other verses. or to try and say types and shadows or metaphor’s or that any verse can be an allegory. Some people say well God has not appointed us to wrath and of coarse that is true for a believer however All the Apostles were Martyred except John. so People can be killed and it not be Gods wrath on them…Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness…Elijah and Enoch were individually taken up so I believe that its possible that some people will be taken up individually and then some will live all of the way thru the tribulation..1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Then there’s the mark of the beast…those who refuse will be killed…Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues…. this is almost the end of the tribulation..so you see there is no escaping but Gods will and that is that..there is way more scripture evidence that points to that we will all be here. and one more thing The USA could fall at any moment, so when hard times come people will suddenly be able to focus on God, so in the end God gets the Victory and we who are saved will be with him forever…like Paul the Apostle said the suffering that we go thru can not be compared to the glory that will be revealed in us…(my paraphrase)
So don’t worry, if you are born again and Jesus is your lord everything will be alright….amen and amen…Byron
There will be a definite change of time as this earth was encapsulated in what we now call time and space when Adam fell. However this return or lifting up of our “time prison” would not be lifted till all creation is restored to the way it was when it was first created.
Presently the church, who if one follows history and closely inspects Scripture is not who most people think it is. According to Scripture the true assembly or congregation of the Most High is Israel, the chosen people of Yah. Israel and the foreigners with her became the Messiah’s ekklesia at the foot of Mount Sion when they accepted the terms of the contract, Torah. This same Torah will be written in the hearts of Israel and Y’hudah,and is known as the New Testament, Jeremiah 31:31-34, (the little divisive pages in most bibles reading Old Testament and New Testament are not found in any original texts). At the moment this is still ongoing and probably wont be fully in place till Messiah Yeshua returns and all Israel will be saved as it is written. Much of Israel does not know its true identity and remains living as Gentiles, many even as Christians attacking Jews.
Yeshua can not rapture anyone that does not truly follow the Father’s Torah in the manner that He taught us to do it. He simply won’t know you, Mat 7:21-23. The concept of the rapture before all of Mat 24 is fulfilled is wishful thinking at best. According to the prophets Yah’s people will be gathered from the four corners of the earth and taken to Jerusalem. However this is not to happen till Yeshua and His army of ANGELS get rid of the tares and clean up house.
Having said all this it could be possible that at some given time during the great tribulation some of His chosen ones are taken into a different time zone for safety. However this can not involve people that truly do not know Him or follow Him on His terms, He is not sparing a bunch of disobedient children nor does scripture promises a rose garden at this present time. Nonetheless Israel was spared the worst of the plagues in Egypt and the woman in Rev is representing Israel so there is that possibility…
When we fell in the garden we were trapped in time and space. That is why we age. We were meant not to be affected by either. Yeshua’s death about 2000 years ago is as if it happened when earth was made so His sacrifice counts for all ages as if it happened the moment the first Adam fell.
I guess you could say the Lord broke the time barrier…..
We need pruning. A diamond is charcoal before under pressure it changes. Oil and wine too are the result of pressing the fruit of the olive tree and grape vine ( both symbolic of Israel by the way). Israel was not spared the first plagues but still survived.
amen
If the theory of the per-tribulation rapture is true them why Yashua said, “you will be hated and persecuted for my names sake”…and explain this…why aren’t christian’s in Africa or Iraq or China being taken away right now? They are being put to death as we speak, they are going through a great tribulation and it looks like things are getting worse for them. …just because we have safety in the U.S. at the moment does not mean we will not be put to death as well. What make us so special for us not to have to go through it.
martin
the US is not special……..america’s time is coming very soon.
death camps are set up all over the USA to kill christians.
homeland security has evangelical christians listed as the top terrorists in america.
there will be a bloodbath here…so bad, people will want to escape the country.
The pre tribulation rapture idea is mainly popular in the US. For the martyred Christians and others around the world the great tribulation has already started.
Mat 24 gives an entirely different perspective. No wonder a great falling away is predicted.
After things get pretty ugly possibly with a man made deadly viral outbreak and subsequent DNA transforming vaccine with animal (beast) cells that will be disclosed to people as such and with many disasters the tares and the wheat will differ from one another. Then the heavenly host of Yahveh will pluck out the tares, and the wheat goes to the threshing floor to get rid of the hard parts. Personally I think many of us are being threshed already but I may be wrong as we all have many things in us that need to be taken loose. Perhaps this threshing will happen simultaneously during the great tribulation.
Time and space as we know it was put in place by Yahveh at the fall of the first Adam for our good and the good of all His creation, which is a good thing or we would have gone unto eternity in a fallen state, Thus we were blocked from eating from the tree of life. Yeshua having come as Second Adam reversed that but we are still encapsulated in time and space and in these bodies till Messiah Yeshua returns with His angels, raising first the dead in Him and transforming our bodies back to the way they would have been from the start before the fall. We shall be like Him when we see Him,
Mat 13, Mat 24, 1John 3:2.