Revelation and the 5 Earthquakes

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Earthquakes occur 5 times in the Tribulation period / Time of Wrath.   Each has its purpose and timing.

It amazes me that, as catastrophic as each earth quake is, that there is actually more than one of them, and that people have survived them.

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(1)

The sixth seal- after the martyrdom of the first group of saints, and

in anticipation of the final group of martyrs. Heavenly signs and men

hide themselves.

Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 6:13   And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Rev 6:14   And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15   And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

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(2)

At the 7th seal – after the ½ hour of silence and the prayers of the

saints before the altar. This precedes the heavenly objects thrown to

the earth and sea, and the sun, moon, and stars being struck dark to

only 1/3 light.

Rev 8:5   And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

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(3)

At the 2nd woe, before the 7th trumpet – Jerusalem earthquake –

after the 2 witnesses called up to heaven

Rev 11:13   And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

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(4)

At the 7th trumpet – punishment of nations who destroy the earth

Rev 11:18   And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 11:19 ¶ And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

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(5)

At the 7th bowl of wrath – after kings of the earth are called by

demons to Armageddon. This divides the great city into 3 parts.

Every island and mountain disappears.

Rev 16:18   And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.

Rev 16:19   And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 16:20   And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

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Final comment

The magnitude of the earthquakes are not indicated, but it is obvious that the size is controlled enough, so that man can continue to live, and experience God’s wrath.

They are large enough to make life miserable, but there is no quick death by earthquake for mankind in general.

Man must endure his judgment.

So, there is no quick and easy way to escape the wrath.

Of the 5 earthquakes, 3 are described as “great.”

The first one, at the 6th seal, seems to involve heavenly bodies such

as sun, moon and stars, and the sky itself.

While severe, it is a warning, compared to the last great earthquake.

The last earthquake is at Armageddon, and is the GREATEST one since man has been on the earth.

I have been looking at websites which talk about a pole shift which will be the greatest catastrophe in world history, and will involve a planet X.

While planet X and the pole shift are separate topics, this last earthquake seems to align in time, and magnitude, and catastrophic effect, with the last Great Armageddon earthquake.

With this in mind, we will see other earthquakes precede the final one, and can use them as markers in time before the final Great Earthquake.

For example, we know there will be a Jerusalem earthquake at the midpoint.

By Armageddon, I can see how the armies will be on foot, after 4 preceding earthquakes, causing enough destruction to cause nations to go back to a more primitive, less civilized, less technological way of life.

Are we ready for any of this?


Being prepared spiritually is most important, because otherwise one would lose their sanity, and find life hopeless.

Being prepared physically is also important.

This is common place wisdom to prepare for disasters.

See also

Pole Shift

Earthquakes Increase in End Times


94 Responses to “Revelation and the 5 Earthquakes”

  1. Preparing for these great quakes is not foolproof. For one thing, we know not where
    they will be. Although there are the “usual suspects,” earthquakes can occur in many places. The interior mountain areas of America are thought to be pretty safe, but think,
    northern New Mexico has a huge prehistoric supervolcano caldera, similar to Yellowstone’s. If Yellowstone blows even partly as heavily as it did in prehistory, it will cover more than half of America with deadly ash.

    Preparing by having some stored food and water is a good idea in case we are asked to “live” for a few months after the world changes radically (by earthquake, war,
    vulcanism, starvation due to crop failure, pestilence, economic failure). how many of us are prepared beyond that? Not me. I am hoping the Lord will take me out. I have not gone heavily into “how to” store food and water, just put away some cans and bottles and dry stuff to last a few months. Beyond that I am in God’s hands, I hope.
    I know this may be “foolish” but it’s all I’m up to right now.

    • hi Mariel

      I think we all have our limits as to what we can do. We do what we can, and then trust God.

      • Hi Marianne. I completely agree with you.
        For those who aren’t taken in that “Twinkling of an eye”, I do hope that everyone shares the message of Jesus Christ, and that HE is the only way. The message of Jesus is important now, not how to save food or water. We all need to keep Christ in our hearts now, and spread His messages of love to everyone. All we need to do is ask Jesus into our hearts, and believe that He died for our sins. He is the one and only redeemer and the only way. Have faith and love and share the message of Christ. May the love of Christ be with you, and all of our sisters and brothers, as we all are children of God. We CAN do a lot~ We can continue to share the message of Jesus and His love for us, that he died for all of us, that he forgives our sins if we ask him to do so, and we can learn about this in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.
        Peace and love be with you…

  2. I see such a pattern here across the board, of interest in preparing food and water for disasters, and I see such wisdom in this. If we don’t need it, so what; but if we did and it’s not there..zoiks. Lack and privation, I’m convinced, are what will bring most people to their knees: they will accept anything, to have basic needs met. We believers should be prepared (my family’s just starting), to be a source for others who didn’t. What an opportunity to share the gospel!

    • That wilal be such a blessing soy beans can be very usefull its just water how do you store that will go to my moms when jerusalme quake hits we have planted so much their and the water is a fountain and GOD keeps that farm of ours so safe many have tried to murder my dad he has the best security angels and satan is working hard in my families lives also Thank you LORD for protecting YOUR children AMEN PRAISE AND LOVE YOU ETERNALLY

  3. Our Lord is ruler of all . He said this would happen and so it will. To be prepaired so that our families are feed and have water is a good thing but to be prepaired by having a relationship with the Lord is the thing that is needed the most. So praise the Lord for ever and ever Ruler over all nations , kings and all in the Heavens. He is not man that he should lie but God almighty and He has warned us about what we muxt face in the end times. HE is King of Kings and Lord of Lords Full of mercy and love. Let us look forward to the day we will be with Him at last, never to be seperated again. God bless you and be with you all during this coming time.

  4. Though we should always be ready for whatever may come by keeping the testimony of Christ and the word of God and going from faith to faith, I am still one who believes that the Lord will take his church off of this earth before any of God’s wrath begins. If you are inferring that we will be here at the time when the 6th bowl judgment takes place, the results being the greatest earthquake to ever take place on the earth since man has been here, then you are saying that God is going to have his church go all the way through to the 7th bowl judgment, which completes his wrath.

    Paul outlined the day of the Lord in 1 Thes.4:13 through 5:11, which is initiated by the resurrection and catching away, followed by God’s wrath. He says, “While people are saying ‘Peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” Then he says, “But you, brothers,” Even without reading the rest of the verse, the fact that Paul says, “But you, brothers” would infer the exact opposite of those not escaping, that is, “But you brothers will escape.”

    The wrath of God is being poured out upon those who will not have repented of sin and who will have continued to reject Jesus Christ and therefore, God is not going to pour his wrath on his church who has already repented and received Jesus as their Lord. Even if you want to maintain that the wrath of God only begins at the 6th seal, then surely the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and seven bowls are most definitely the wrath of God. Furthermore, if you have the church going all the way through until the 7th bowl is poured out, then what Paul says about the resurrection and catching away and the time of wrath that follows would make no sense:

    “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thes.5:9)

    If you read 1 Thes.4:13-18 through 5:1-11 the sequence of events are the resurrection and catching away taking place first, then the wrath of God which follows. The fact is that each set of seven judgments are all referred to as the wrath of God:

    6th seal (Includes the previous seals where death and Hades are given power to kill a fourth of the earth’s population) – Rev.6:16-17

    The Trumpets – Rev.11:18

    Seven Bowls – Rev.15:1, 16:1-20

    Also, if the church was to go through the wrath of God, then Paul’s comment after he describes the resurrection and catching away which says, “Therefore, comfort each other with these words” would be no comfort at all, if the church were to in fact go through God’s wrath. On the other hand, it would indeed be a comfort if the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place prior to the wrath, which is exactly the sequence in which it is written.

    According to the following verses, at the end of the age when Jesus returns to set up his millennial kingdom, there will hardly be anyone left on the earth, because God is going to decimate the populatioin through the seals, trumpets and bowls as indicated indicated in the following verses:

    “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Is.13:12)

    And Jesus echo’s what Isaiah said regarding the day of the Lord:

    “If those days had not been cut short,no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect, those days will be shortened.”
    (Mt.24:22)

    • Don
      It is a valid opinion to have to say that Christ will come once in the clouds to save his followers from wrath, and also again to judge by his wrath (standing on the Mount of Olives). The point I think we differ on is the timing of the seals. I see the church in the first five seals, especially the fifth. I see these not as wrath, but as discipline and testing of the elect. I also believe that the “time of peace and safety” is referring to the first 3.5 years of the covenent which the Ac signs, an apparent peace and safety will sweep over the world because of the middle east peace treaty.

      At any rate, there are two sets of prophecies in the bible, one for Israel, and one for the Christians. Sometimes they fit well together, other times they confuse our studies. That is why I do not hold onto my eschatological opinions with the vigor that I do my theological ones.

      BTW as for comforting one another; how is it that we need comfort from one another regarding being caught away, if we are not being persecuted (fifth seal)? Just a thought.

      • Hi Dru,

        The reason that Paul says:

        “Comfort one another with these words”

        is because he just got done telling the Thessalonians that the Lord would decend from heaven where immediately after resurrecting the dead, the living believers would immediately be caught up in the air with them to meet the Lord in the air prior to God’s wrath. So the comfort for them and now us, is to remind each other of what is written here and that being the resurrection and catching which will take place prior to God’s wrath.

        • Don
          Your point again is valid.

          My point is if the fifth seal involves martydom of Christians, yet you say they will be taken away before then, who will be left to persecute?

          I see your point of comforting those who see the dead in christ rising first. It would be nice to know how much time there is between the dead rising and the living rising? Perhaps 3.5 years??? Just a thought.

          • Hello again Dru,

            Dru said:
            My point is if the fifth seal involves martydom of Christians, yet you say they will be taken away before then, who will be left to persecute?

            Response:
            Remember the parable of the 10 virgins Dru? Five were wise because they brought oil with them representing their readiness and five were foolish, because they brought no oil and had to go buy from those who sell it. While they were on their way to buy, the bridegroom (Jesus)came and the five wise virgins (bride/church) went into the wedding banquet. When the other five virgins returned, they said, “Sir! Sir! open the door for us,” but the door was shut. It may be that those representing the five virgins, that is, those who are not ready, are those who become the saints during that last seven years. On top of that, there will be others who will receive Christ during that last seven years as well. Also, it is an assumption to infer that those under the altar at the 5th seal are the church.

            As I have said many times, the word Ekklesia tranlated church(s) is used approximately 19 times from chapter 1 and is the very last word used in chapter 3 and is then never used again within the narrative. The word used to describe those under the alar is “Hagios” translated “Saint.” In the book of Revelation, the word church and saint are never used interactively. From chapter 1 through 3 only the word “church” is used by itself and after chapter 4 only the word Saint is used by itself. I personally believe that there is a reason for the change of the two words to descibe believers and that because the church is gone. If the words church and saint were both used interchangeably throughout Revelation, then there would be no issue, but it is because of their separate use that gives me a clue that there is a valid reason for believing this.

            Dru said:
            I see your point of comforting those who see the dead in christ rising first. It would be nice to know how much time there is between the dead rising and the living rising? Perhaps 3.5 years??? Just a thought.

            Response:
            First of all, you misunderstand, Paul stating to comfort one another is not because the dead are rising first. The comfort are to those who will be living and caught up immediately after the resurrection. Paul is saying, comfort one another because they will be caught up prior to the wrath that will be taking place. In other words, Paul is saying, the wrath God is coming, but be comforted because you will be caught up with those who will be resurrection and therefore you will not be here for the wrath. Since this event did not take place during the time of the Thessalonians and is still come, then the comfort is to those who are living just prior to the time of the wrath of God, which currently would be to all of us who are true believers in Christ.

            Now, inregards to the timing between the resurrection of the dead and the catching away of the living, that is a very easy question to answer Dru. For the answer can be found in the verse itself, which states the following:

            “The dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up [together with them] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

            The sister verse to the one above, which is 1 Cor.15:51-52 gives us some more information stating that those who are still alive at the time the resurrection takes place will be changed in flash, in the twinkling of an eye and therefore, it appears that the rising of the dead and the catching up of the living will take place in less than the blink of an eye, almost similtaneously. Those resurrected and those who are caught up, which represents the entire church, will meet Jesus in the air where according to John 14:1-3, will be taken back to the Father’s house. The event of the catching away is actually part of the resurrection. The only difference is that those who are being resurrected are those who will have died in Christ before this event takes place. The only reason for those who are changed and caught up is because they are still alive when the resurrection takes place. The catching away of the living is also for the purpose of removing us from the earth so that we will not come under God’s wrath which he will be pouring out upon the entire earth. It is the gathering of the entire church from beginning to end, dead and living.

            I hope that this helps.

            • Hey Don
              I left a sight for alienated below that is helpful to the discussion at hand. It supports your notions more than mine, but it is doctrinally sound. Use the third link I put up. (I am new to this blogging stuff).

              At any rate, that sight says the elect are the five virgins which are prepared, and are raptured, while the other five are not prepared and remain for Martyrdom. Curious to hear your comments on it.

              It may be the answer to both of our questions.

              • Hi Dru,

                Please read my previous post to you, because what you mentioned is the same thing that I explained in that previous post. The five wise virgin’s, those with oil, are the believers who are ready when the bridegroom (Jesus) arrives and are caught up and go into the wedding banquet. The five who did not have oil with them are the foolish virgin’s, which are those believers who will not be ready and because of that will be left here during that last seven years.

                • I was acknowledging your point of view, by referencing the other sight. I guess I am back to being a pretrib rapture person.

                  Thank you for “correcting” my views. The sight I posted was the first to explain how there would be christians around during the fifth seal, assuming a pretrib rapture.

                  Don’t let it go to your head!!! LOL

                  Now we need to move on to the question of whether the first four seals are pretrib events or occur during the tribulation?

                  God bless

                  • Hi Dru,

                    Well for just one out of the “many verses” that say that the true church, (those that didn’t quench the Spirit) will escape God’s wrath, Look what Yeshua says before any of the seals are opened, when He is speaking to the church of Philadelphia.

                    “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.” Rev.:3:10.

                    Now the word translated here as “temptation” comes from the transliterated Greek word, “Peirasmos” Strong’s 3986.
                    The definition is fairly long, but if you were to look it up, you would see by its definition that Yeshua is definitely referring to the Tribulation. He states above that He will keep those that He loves from it.

                    Be Blessed.

                  • Hi Dru,

                    I hope that you are having a blessed day as well! Just wanted you to know that my intention here is not to get people to believe what I am saying for my sake, that is, I am not looking for my own honor. I am only correcting and contending for what I know to be God’s word. I always provide Scripture to support what I am proclaiming so that you and others can go read it for yourselves.

                    Take what is happening these days for example: We have had all of these people proclaiming to be Christ, such as Jim Jones, David Koresh, Maitreya, Sung Myung Moon, Yaweh ben Yaweh, Wyane Bent, Michael Trevessor, Ra-El and many others. Jesus warns us that in the last days many will come in his name claiming to be the Christ (Messiah) and will deceive many and that is exactly what is happening. If these people would just read the word of God and heed Jesus’ warnings, they would not be deceived by these false Christ’s. For they would be reading the same warnings from Jesus that I and everyone else are reading, which says, when they say, “Christ is out in the desert,” don’t go look or “he’s in the inner rooms,” don’t believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible in the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man.

                    In other words, no one will have to tell anyone else that the Lord has come because everyone will know it because they will have seen for themselves and it won’t be via YouTube. The inhabitants of the earth will be stopped in their tracks at his coming because it will be a main event which no one will be able to miss. Yet today, in spite of Jesus’ warnings, those who are proclaiming to be the Christ sadly still have many followers. Oy Vey!

                    The very fact that we have false Christs, more frequent and intense earthquakes and people not putting up with sound doctrine, it tells us one thing and that is that we are getting very close to the day of the Lord.

                  • Don
                    To be honest, I started out as a pretrib person, but I could not justify the fifth seal with a pre trib rapture, until the distinction was made between on that site, and with discussions with you. Alienated also led me to look into the ten virgins parable.
                    Its not that I opposed pretribbers, but rather saw something in the bible that appeared to contradict it, which needed explanation. It is nice to get some correction, for with correction comes wisdom.

                    Peace!

      • Hi Dru,

        I hope that you don’t mind me sort of butting in here at all, but I have what may at first appear like a pretty stupid question for you. However, there is a reason for it.
        “How would you describe who the “elect” is?”

        Thanks
        Be Blessed

        • Alienated
          Unlike what calvinists believe, to me the elect are those that are chosen to die by martyrdom for holding to the testimony of Christ. Many Christians live their lives to a fulness of years and die of natural causes. Though not among the “elect” they are no different from those who are martyred. In other words, this election does not disqualify those who do not or are not called to make this sacrifice. Nor does it exalt those who do make that sacrifice.

          The whole calvinist arguments are muddled and confused regarding this, but suffice it to say, their main goal in arguing for election is to glorify themselves above those who are “not elect”. this is contradictory to scripture which says the Gospel is for all. There is a really good book out there on this debate, called “debating calvinism”, which has a calvinist and a non calvinist exchanging comments with each other in a classic debate structure. I obviously lean towards the non-calvinist view, and base what I believe on what is said in revalation, and Jesus own words. Calvinists will go into the epistles of Peter, and its talk of those “whom he foreknew”

          • Okay, Thanks for your response Dru,

            However, I am/was not referring to what Calvinists may believe or not. I was more interested in hearing what it is that you hold personally in your heart to be true based upon your interpretation. And I suspect I can understand more or less by what you say here, “to me the elect are those that are chosen to die by martyrdom for holding to the testimony of Christ.”
            With that I would agree fully with the latter portion of that statement, but scripture does imply that some will remain alive, and that not all will be martyred. Matthew 24:22. Mark 13:20.

            Personally I have over the years, believe that I have been led to incorporate more and more of a Messianic, Hebraic perspective to the Word.
            I mean we as Gentiles grafted into the faith, haven’t even been trying collectively to decipher scripture for 2000 years yet. (It was only when some 15 to 20 years later after Yeshua’s death, Cornelius became the very first Gentile to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.) Whereas Jews themselves have been doing this for millennia after millennia.

            Because of this, where we may initially stumble in attempting to comprehend a specific passage in the New Testament, they will breeze through it with relative ease and understand it, for it is simply the continuation of a story that they have been familiar with for thousands of years. For it is essentially for all intensive purposes, the supplied pieces to the puzzle that had been missing.

            Where I think we get messed up as a whole, is because during the Reformation, though the ideology had evolved significantly, the error of “supersessionism”, or replacement theology remained relatively intact.
            Therefore when the western denominations were established, that unfortunate ideology was maintained.
            We have simply been conditioned over the years as Christians to indentify with that specific word.
            Brain washed over the years, so to speak, with past down preconceived beliefs born from Catholic replacement theology.

            It has only come to light recently, for the westernized Church to begin to recognize the importance of incorporating the Messianic/ Hebraic perspective to scripture.
            Remember, when Yeshua spoke the word “elect” to His Jewish followers then, there was no New Testament to verify as to “who” else He could be referring too. His disciples were Jew’s that would associate the word “elect” to what was written within the Hebraic scrolls of the Tanakh. (Just like the Berean’s did.)

            I believe that you will agree, that Matthew was written by a “Jew”, to the “Jew’s”, about a”Jew.”
            In keeping with the context of the book, it’s first purpose and intention (from the introduction of Yeshua’s lineage through to His resurrection at the end), was to preach the Gospel to the Jew’s of the day.
            Therefore, the majority of Messianic congregations identify Matthew 24 as being more specifically related to the Jews that will be alive at the end of the Tribulation, during the Second Coming of Yeshua.
            (The geographical references that are made within the text appear to support this premise.)

            The references that would have been available at the time in the scrolls, which they would and do associate to these verses, would have been;

            Isaiah 42:1 utilizes the word “elect” to refer to the Messiah.

            Isaiah 45:4 speaks of Israel being God’s “elect”.

            Isaiah 65:9 speaks of Israel as the “elect” inheriting the land.

            Isaiah 65:22 speaks of Israel as His “elect” building the Kingdom in the future new heaven and earth.

            The Hebrew transliterated word for “elect” is “Bachiyr”, Strong’s # 0972 and it’s definitions are as follows;
            “chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God) ”

            Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time, the “church” did not exist.

            However before I continue here,(I just noticed the time and I’m going to be late for an appointment if I don’t leave now) you posed a question to Don above that I would like to respond to as well.
            You asked, “My point is if the fifth seal involves martyrdom of Christians, yet you say they will be taken away before then, who will be left to persecute?”
            I just happen to working on a study of Matthew 25:1-13 at the moment, that is relevant to this whole topic of discussion.
            It is not finished yet, but if you would like, I’d be more than happy to share what I have so far with you. It is too long to try and post here, but if you are interested then please let Marianne know, and we can exchange email addresses. I think that it would be far easier and more productive if we could discuss a few things that way instead.
            Or, I could email it to Marianne, and she could then forward it to you as well, for another option.
            I’ll leave that up to you.

            Be Blessed.

            • Alienated

              You said you are studying the parable of the ten virgins. The following site has one of the most thorough studies on that parable. I do not know if I agree with his conclusion that the bride of Christ is raptured, or those who are Martyred (AKA the elect). But the main gist of the argument is sound from where I am coming from.
              the site is as follows:
              http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/parableofthetenvirgins.htm

              as for email, I check this sight more than my email. If it is a long exposition, just send it via Marianne. I “converse” better on the blog. You may want to pick an old topic that is not as crowded to do the talking.

              • Hi Dru,

                Thanks for the site, I’ll check it out.

                Also, check your email tomorrow.
                I just sent that study to Marianne and if she would be so kind, she will forward it to you.

                Though again it is not completely finished, I hope that you will find it an interesting and informative read.

                Be Blessed.

            • That sight was

              http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/parableofthetenvirgins.htm/

            • Let’s try it again

              http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/ParableoftheTenVirgins.html

              • Hi Dru,

                Just found the time to read through this site. Thought that it was really cool that though the author and myself approached things differently, we basically came to the same conclusions,
                without the opportunity for there to be any collusion at all.

                As Christians it is imperative that we don’t “quench” the Spirit if we hope to take part in the fullness of our inheritance.
                This truth can not be understated.

                Be Blessed

                • Alienated
                  I read your email, and see that what you say is of the Spirit of Truth.

                  I think I understand the distinctions made therein, and it answers many of the “questions” which I had concerning the rapture.

                  If you want to comment, start a new one below so we can get away from these narrow columns.
                  God bless.

    • hi Don

      I went back to double check what I said about the last bowl judgment. I said man would still be here. Not christians.

      I did not indicate when christians would “leave” in this post.

      My point was that, with all the destruction by earthquakes, mankind in general would survive until the last Great earthquake, at Armageddon. True Christians are not appointed unto wrath, so my hope is that we are all gone long before Armageddon.

    • I agree with you don. What would be the point in being saved if i was going to have to go thru the wrath of GOD, a damed if i do and damed if i dont. We’re going to be judged by jesus when we get to heaven. JESUS said he would provide for us, i take that to mean in any situation If you store up for food and water for 3 months,what do you do if it goes 4 months. I’m counting on being raptured out of here before judgement falls. praise GOD

  5. Has anyone ever given any thought about the name synagogue of Satan that tempts the entire earth…This synagogue of Satan is made up of people who claim to be Jews but are liars and are not real Jews..Rev 2-9 and Rev. 3-9,10..
    God dubbed Satan’s organization SYNAGOGUE because Satan himself is posing as the God of Abraham..hence the word SYNAGOGUE…
    Satan’s followers are those who claim to be Jews.. They do this by claiming Ishamel was the chosen blood line…which they think makes them( not Israel) the real Jews… This is the reason Ishamel’s descendants and (Islam) and Satan’s Hitler have tried to annihilate Jews.. Satan thinks if Israel ceases to exist that makes Islam a legitimate religion via Ishmael..Islam is Satan’s version of the old covenant and of course the new covenant..Mohammed and his antichrist gospel is the counterfeit version of Jesus and Christ’s Gospel..

    This demonic power that was actually begun in Genesis is what will end soon…Rev 12-9 shows that the 7 headed dragon beast is Satan and his angels and is the OLD SERPENT of Genesis 3..

    This is where the danger lies today….Islam is swallowing our churches…They call themselves Chrislam…

    This is the delusional world satan created that will end soon..

    The earth will stand forever according to Scripture

    • That is a good point Ruth, thanks.

    • Silly. The beast in Revelations is the modern state of Israel. ‘who can make war with the beast.’ The elect are deceived by it. It is because you don’t know history and you don’t understand the prophets that you are confused by the beast. All prophecy must be taken in the context to which it was given…for example, if the two houses of Israel are split when prophecy is given the name Israel applies to the 10 tribes in exile, while the name Judah refers to the Jews. Jacob/Israel split the blessing and the dominion mandate. The dominion mandate was given to Judah UNTIL the time that Yeshua was born…now rulership resides with our King, NOT with Judah. The glory of the Lord departed WITH our Lord from the mount of Olives. Jacob gave the fruitfulness blessing, and his name ‘Israel’ to Joseph and the House of Joseph. For the modern state of Israel to use the name ‘Israel’ is a lie…they are not Israel and they are NOT in covenant with God, UNLESS you would like to profess that the blood of the Holy Son of God, Yeshua our King is not capable of covering the sin of the whole world (herisy). The reason people get confused is because their own definitions confuse them…but you must cast those definitions aside and see the names, dates and history for what it is. For example, the bible is FILLED with prophecy really disatorous regarding Edom…but where is Edom? In 126 BC the nation of Judah absorbed the nation of Edom, they are one in the same. King Herod, what a peach he was, was half Edomite, half Judah. What do you think our Lord meant when he said, even NOW the kingdom of heaven is suffering violence. Or the curse of the fig tree, which represents Judah…it has leaves but no fruit. Or do you think that the violence, mistreatment of people, evicting people from their homes, lieing, murder, is the ‘fruit’ of the kingdom? How do you reconcile this behavior with our Lord ‘the suffering servant’ or shoot, even the most basic of the 10 commandments, love your neighbor as you live yourself. Israel the modern country fits every single prophecy of the beast there is…it was not and it is, the whole world wonders after it…there is so much more…it is a land that Gog and Magog have overrun, it worships fortresses, weaponry, fighting, killing…you just can’t depart MORE from the Spirit of God than the modern nation of Israel. So…I know you will cling to you sacred cow…unable to ‘see’ the truth of the Word of God…but let’s look one last time at what the revelator John says about them, Rev. 11;8 ‘and their dead bodies will lie in the main street of the great city whose name, to reflect it’s spiritual condition is, ‘Sodom’ and ‘Egypt’ – the city where their Lord was executed on a stake. Skip to verse 10 ‘the people living in the land’ this is SO significant…these aren’t the people of God, these aren’t the inheritors of the Kingdom, these aren’t Jews (because you have to be part of the nation of Judah and obedient to IT’S KING in order to be part of Judah). But more than that they don’t display the character or lawful conduct of the people of God…look at their conduct! Well I know that nobody’s going to get this, and I have to go water my garden…big sigh…I grieve and cry over my people, the House of Joseph because they are, through a lack of knowledge going to ally themselves with the beast, Satan, and the false prophet…thinking that they are doing ‘what is right’.

      • dear Meatpoet

        Israel is not the beast. It is overtaken BY the beast when the antichrist invades and sets himself up, with the temple mount as his headquarters. Hence, it becomes as Sodom.

        Israel throughout history has referred to the entire nation of Israel and Judah collectively. Once they split, the southern kingdom was called that, but it still does not negate the collective use of the term Israel. Those Jews there now are from all tribes. The modern use of the term Israel is therefore appropriate.

        The covenant with natural Israel is an everlasting covenant. It cannot be broken, and Jesus did not break it either. He renewed it, and fulfilled it, but did not break it. If broken, God would not be promising to return in the end times to save it.

        The Edomites are the Palestinians, not Jews, and will be removed by God from the property when Messiah comes.

        Israel defends itself against savage Muslim terrorists that want to destroy it, and push all Jews into the sea. Israel is peaceful, and gives up land for peace. Palestinians do nothing but make bombs, shoot missiles, blow up people, and blame this on Israel. They are all mentally ill.

        You appear to be strongly anti-semitic, so you should not claim to know Yeshua. That would be hypocrisy to have so much hate, and blindness, when love is required to be a believer.

      • Meatpoet,

        I agree with Marianne in that Israel is not the beast. Israel is clearly shown to be the woman of Revelation 12 as revealed in conjunction with Gen.37:9-10. The beast is said to be the angel of the Abyss who is the king over those demonic beings who are commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months with stings like that of a scorpion (Rev.9:1-11).

        The beast is also an eighth king who belongs to a succession of seven kings who are representing the seven heads of the dragon (Rev.17:8-11)

        The beast, after he comes up out of the Abyss, is also the one who kills the two witnesses of God after they have finished their testimony of 3 1/2 years (Rev.11:3-12)

        This is the same beast who along with the false prophet who are thrown alive into the lake of fire when Jesus returns to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom
        (Rev.19:19-20)

        So you see, there is nothing whatsoever to link the beast as representing Israel, for she is the woman who is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars (Rev.12:1). It would be pretty hard to imagine Israel as the beast when Scripture states that the beast opens his mouth to blaspheme God and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who dwell in heaven (Rev.13;5-6).

        Israel may currently not acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah, but they are a people zealous for God. It would probably be a good idea to pray for forgiveness regarding your claim and would also be a good idea not to teach this.

  6. Do not fear! Gods word said that he will protect us, just believe him. Be wise though and create stores, when the time comes stay away from the big cities. Look at the markers. Study the bible! Do not read revelation alone, the book of Daniel is required as a key. Remember the old Jews where prohibited from reading Daniel Chapter 7. Another thing is go and study what Luther said as well as John Knox, Johannes Calvyn ext.
    The Sabbath law will also be a marker and it will come from The
    USA. Marian I will mail you some stuff.

    Stand Fast in your Faith

    Louis

  7. When Paul said “comfort one another” with what he said, he was referring to people who
    had fears because some of their group had died, and they wondered if these had missed the resurrection. Paul is comforting them that the dead in Christ will rise first and that then the rest of the Christians will be transformed and the whole group will go to Heaven. That is what various Bible teachers have taught me.

    However, I see another meaning in “comfort one another”. The people he spoke to were
    already suffering. They did not need to be in the tribulation to know suffering. It was
    comforting to them to know that all of those who followed Christ, dead or alive,
    would be redeemed, for their present life was not without trial.

    We too are in great need of comforting. I guess there are some Christians who lead
    comfortable healthy happy lives–but if you query of them, you may find real suffering there. At my church it seems every other person has cancer. The patients
    are suffering, and their families; and those who don’t have cancer have other ailments.
    They look like a healthy bunch, but of them it could be said “but you don’t LOOK
    sick”. Lots of people who look well are actually suffering. We seem to not be as the
    people of Dickens’ time, where malnutrition and gross overwork made some people LOOK sick. I am not speaking of everyone, of course, just saying we need a lot of
    comforting about where our final destination will be.

    At my church, some of the people, including the rector, hope for the rapture, and others do not hope for it imminently….but I think all believe it will happen; more than
    just the return of Jesus, the faithful will be caught up in the air. Such grievous
    suffering is already going on there–I am a witness–that I believe a soon rapture would be good for them. It will come when God decides it will.

    • Hi Mariel,

      I understand what you are saying, but the fact is that, since the Thessalonians are long dead, the message is to us or to that generation who will be here when the resurrection and catching away takes place. Because after this event of the entire church dead and living being resurrected and caught up, then the wrath of God will follow and so we are to repeat to each other what Paul wrote here in 1 Thes.4:13-18 about being caught up, because it is also a comfort that we will be removed from the earth before the wrath begins.

      A good example of this is found in the letter to philidelphia where Jesus said to that church:

      “Since you have kept my comand to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

      From this verse we can deduce that the message is no longer directed to the literal church of Philidelphia of that time, since they have all been dead for 1900 years. Therefore, the message is to a future type of Philidelphian church that will exist just prior to the hour of testing, which he will keep them from. So, the comfort is that the dead in Christ are not lost because they will be resurrected and the comfort is also for those who are alive in the generation just prior to when the wrath of God takes place because they will be caught up, escaping God’s wrath.

      • That comment in Thessalonians seems to be referring to the wrath ( trumpets and bowls) not the tribulation ( seals 1-5)since for the past 2000 years, saints have been enduring the seals.

        • Hello Marianne,

          So, you think that seals 1-5 have been taking place for the last 2000 years? Personally, I don’t believe that the seals have been opened yet, as John was seeing what would take place in the future centered on those last days. One reason that I believe that the 1st seal has yet to be opened, is because that white horse with its rider with the bow and a crown are representing the beast, for it is he who goes out to make war and conquer the saints. Based on this, the 1st seal has yet to be opened and that because that beast, that man of lawlessness has yet to be revealed.

          Another reason for believing that the seals have not yet been opened is because one of the main purposes of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is to decimate the earth’s population during that last seven years, which is the day of the Lord:

          “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Is.13:12)

          And echoing that, Jesus said:

          “Except those days were cut short no one would survive, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”

          There are two places within these plagues that give a percentage as to how many fatalities there are, one is at the 4th seal with a fourth or 25% of the earth’s population being killed and at the 6th Trumpet there is a third of the population that is killed. When you put both of these together they equal half or 50% of the earth’s population being killed. But that is not the total amount, because we don’t have a percentages of fatalities for trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor do we know the percentage for those will be killed in relation to the bowl judgments. The idea is that the majority of the earth’s population is going to die once the wrath-part of the day of the Lord begins within that last seven year time span.

          Now, one of the reasons that you have said that you don’t believe that seals 1-4 are included as being the wrath of God is because the announce at the 6th seal is that “The great day of their wrath has come and who can stand?” and therefore, you say that the wrath must begin after the announcement, right? What do you think about the following verse, which is quoted from the 7th trumpet:

          “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and [your wrath has come].”

          Now, at the 6th seal you claim that by the statemeent “Their wrath has come” means that the words “has come” must mean that the wrath starts after the announcement. Therefore, if we use that same logic, then we would have to come to the same conclusion here in the 7th trumpet, for it also states that “Your wrath has come.” Using your logic would mean that the wrath must start after the announcement here in the 7th trumpet, but as you can see the annoucement “Your wrath has come” includes the trumpets and seals that will have previously taken place as well as what the wrath that is still to follow. As I have said before, when it states in the 6th seal that, “The great day of their wrath has come” it includes what previously happened with the seals as well as all of the wrath that is still to come after the announcement is made.

          Furthermore, another annoucement is made by the first of those three angels which says pretty much the same thing: “He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of [his judgment has come].’ ” Now does this mean that judgment begins after the angels announcement or is the statement encompassing all of the judgment that had previously taken place with the seals and trumpets? Yes, this announcement includes all that had happened prior to the announcement and what is yet to come.

          In short, the fourth that are killed at the 4th seal are also part of God’s wrath to make man scarcer than pure gold, where the trumpets and bowl judgments add to and finish the decimation so that what Jesus said will be fulfilled: “Except those days were cut short no one would survive.” I believe that the opening of that first seal is the revealing of that beast, the antichrist.

          If one was to make the claim that the seals have already taken place as in real time from John’s time frame, then the trumpets and bowls would also have had to have taken place, because in the vision the seals would have already been been opened, the trumpets have all been blown and the bowls have all been poured out. But I believe that those events are still future and John was just seeing a preview of what is to come when Jesus opens that 1st seal.

          To close, I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up the entire wrath of God also known as the Day of the Lord.

          • Don
            I am going to disagree slightly with you here. I believe there are multiple fulfillments of these seals. It is similar to how Jesus life mirrorred Josephs life in the Old Testament, Or how Antiochus, was a foreshadowing of the antichrist of endtimes. Or how his Abomination that made the temple unclean for 2300 days foreshadows the abomination of the antichrist.

            I believe what Marianne and others are seeing is a foreshadow of the seals. In other words, the catholic church fits perfectly into the first seal. The Catholic church has been around for a long time. Throughout the years, the catholic church has tested true Christians, and persecuted them. This is historical fact. It has been conquerring for years with a bow in hand but no arrows (military might). It will however be fully unleashed in the tribulation to test those who are Christians and remain.

            Now I am not trying to convince anyone here to follow my theories, but what if there is a long fulfillment, and a short fulfillment of these prophecies? One perhaps relating to the Jewish people, and one pertaining to the Gentile believers. One began with the Looting of the temple By the Babylonians, and the other is yet to begin. One lasted 2550 Years and the other will be 2550 days. One abomination is the dome of the Rock, while the other is to come or TBD.

            Now I know this is “out there” in the way of accepted interpretation, but it does seem to fit. Especially the Numbers from daniel and revalation. I don’t think it is as “wacky”as some other stuff on this sight though!!

            Please, take the time to comment on this notion. My main “proof” for this theory is that OT characters and events Mirror or foreshadow NT events. Think of the feasts that Marrianne and Lindsey are talking about: Think of how Joseph and Jesus are related: How there are Multiple AC figures: The second temple vs. the third temple. Israels nationhood at the time of Christ Vs current nationhood. ETC. There are numerous others.

            • Hello Dru and all,

              As I stated before, the purpose of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are specifically to pour out God’s wrath upon an unrepentant, Christ rejecting world. These judgments are meant to take place in a short period of time in order to decimated the population of the earth to fulfill what both Isaiah and Jesus said about scarcity of mankind by the time Jesus returns.

              The 1st seal/white horse is said to ride out as a conqueror bent on conquest. Thsi is exactly what is said that the beast does regarding the great tribulation saints:

              “He was given power to make war against the saints and to ‘conquer’ them.”

              So, he will make war and conquer the saints who will be resisting him, his image and his mark. While the inhabitants of the earth will be receiving him as being God and will worship him.

              “And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.” (Rev.13:7-8)

              I respect your view, but personally I do not believe that the 1st seal has yet been opened, for when it does, then that white horse which I believe is representing the beast/antichrist will reveal himself. I believe that we the church of believers will not even see the antichrist, but will have been removed from the earth prior when that first seal is opened. As I said, the seals, trumpets and bowls are meant to take place in the very last days as a woman having birth pains, which any mother will tell you, start off light and far apart, then increase with intensity and grow closer together. I believe that these plagues combined known as the day of the Lord are what God is going to use to decimate the population of the earth and they will flow like a woman having birth pains.

              By the way, the reason that Satan knows that he has but a short time is because when he is thrown out of heaven with his angels and they are restricted to the earth, he then knows that he only has
              3 1/2 years of freedom left before he will be thrown into the Abyss and locked up in there during christ’s millennail reign:

              “And I saw and angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. (Rev.20:1-3)

              • Don
                When God poured out his wrath on The Israelites in the wilderness before entering the promised Land, did he not show mercy on the next generation (after 40 years), when they repented? There is a time in revalation that God does not acknowledge the repentence, and/or there is noone left willing to repent. This I believe is the sixth seal? (I will have to find that quote)
                From that moment on, only wrath is left.
                Therefore, the first five seals are tests, Just like Ninevah was spared from the wrath when Jonah preached there, and the people repented. Later, however, it was destroyed.

                These “tests” have been going on for millenia, in one form or another, and will also occur in magnified form during the tribulation.

                • Hi Dru,

                  You said:
                  “When God poured out his wrath on The Israelites in the wilderness before entering the promised Land, did he not show mercy on the next generation (after 40 years), when they repented? There is a time in revalation that God does not acknowledge the repentence, and/or there is noone left willing to repent. This I believe is the sixth seal? (I will have to find that quote)
                  From that moment on, only wrath is left.
                  Therefore, the first five seals are tests, Just like Ninevah was spared from the wrath when Jonah preached there, and the people repented. Later, however, it was destroyed.
                  These “tests” have been going on for millenia, in one form or another, and will also occur in magnified form during the tribulation.”

                  Response:
                  I’m not quite sure that I understand the question or what you are proposing, but in regards to repentence during that time when God is pouring his wrath out upon the inhabitants of the earth during those last days, please see the following verses:

                  “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth–to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice,’Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens,the earth, the sea and the springs of water.’ ”
                  (Rev.14:6–7)

                  “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
                  (Rev.16:8-9)

                  The purpose of God’s wrath being poured out during that time is not just specifically for the purpose of punishing, but as Rev.3:10 states, it is to test those who live on the face of the whole earth. God is basically using greater measures through these plagues in order to get people to repent. Otherwise, if God was not truely interested in looking for those who would repent and worshop him, it would make no sense for the angel who is flying in mid-air to be preaching the eternal gospel to the inhabitants of the earth, telling them to worship and fear God. In other words, at this point, if there was no longer any opportunity for people to repent, then God would not bother sending an angel to make the annoucement for repentance and to fear him, because it would be in vain.

                  Now, in the second group of verses that I listed above, where the angel pours out the 4th bowl judgment causing the sun to scorch the inhabitants of the earth with searing heat and fire from the sun, we can see that even at the 4th bowl judgment God is still looking for those who will repent before his plagues are completed. We know this because of what is stated in the verse:

                  “They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.”

                  Again, if God was not still offering the opportunity for repentence at this point, it would make no sense for the verse to say, “They refused to repent and glorify him.” The fact that this is stated in the verse shows that even at the 4th bowl judgment, which is two plagues away from God’s wrath being completed, God is still looking for repentance. On the other hand, after that 7th bowl is poured out and once Jesus returns, all bets are off! Those who continue to be unrepentent and to not give glory to God will have no opportunity after Jesus returns to repent. Those people will be collected by the angles first (one taken) and they will be killed by the double-edged sword that procedes out of the Lord’s mouth along with those kings, generals, mighty men, their horses, etc, etc. (Rev.19:19-21)

                  In short, there is opportunity for repentence and therefore salvation, all the way up to at least the bowl judgments.

                  Just a side note, according to Scripture, anyone who will have received the mark of the beast, it would appear that they would not have the opportunity to repent because Scripture makes clear the consequences of receiving his mark as stated in Rev.14:9-12.

                  I hope that this addressed your concerns.

          • hi Don

            Be assured that I would prefer to believe as you do, but I am not convinced.

            From sheer historical evidence, the seals have bee going on for a long time. I believe the final 42 months ( or less) before the “wrath” the experiences will intensify, as satan is knows his time is short.

            The 4 horses have been “riding the earth” since Zechariah 6. They increased activity after Christ to include the afflictions of the christians, and this will climax before the Trumpets.

            The beast has been around that long, if the white horse is the beast.

            • Hi Marianne,

              You said:
              “The 4 horses have been “riding the earth” since Zechariah 6. They increased activity after Christ to include the afflictions of the christians, and this will climax before the Trumpets.

              The beast has been around that long, if the white horse is the beast.

              Response:
              The problem with your view as stated above is in regards to what Daniel prophecied:

              “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

              The beast reveals himself by making a covenant with many, where 3 1/2 years later he sets up the abomination, followed by the Lord’s return 3 1/2 years after that. Therefore, the time of his being revealed is 3 1/2 years prior to the setting up of that abomination. So, how can you say that the the horses have been here since Zecariah, when John prophecied the horses as future event?There are 3 events that border that seven years, one, “He” makes his covenant for one ‘seven,’ which establishes the seven years,two, the abomination is set up in the middle of that ‘seven’ which of course marks the middle point and three, the Lord returns to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, which ends the seven years. John prophesied of the seals/horses well after Zecariah’s time and the prophecy was meant for still a future time from John’s time frame. In other words, if the beast/white horse was already here, we should have seen him make his covenant and then 3 1/2 years later we should have seen him cause the daily sacrifice to cease and the setting up of that abomination. The timing is specific which is made up of two back to back
              3 1/2 year periods, of this there is no question.

              • don

                You are arbitrarily making the white horse the AC, and the begining of the 7 years. It does not say that.

                While the white horse may be the antichrist spirit, it does not mean the antichrist himself has been revealed. The spirit has been around for a long time.

                read Zech 6, and you will see.

              • don

                You are arbitrarily making the white horse the AC, and the beginning of the 7 years. It does not say that.

                While the white horse may be the antichrist spirit, it does not mean the antichrist himself has been revealed. The spirit has been around for a long time.

                read Zech 6, and you will see.

  8. Hi Dru,

    I am just glad that it helped to clear some questions up that you had. The whole point when you do these studies is to not only learn through the help of the Spirit for yourself, but to share them somehow to also edify those that are willing to listen and then check the scriptures to be sure that they are true.
    Acts 17:11
    I am just grateful that God allowed me to be a part in that.

    Be Blessed

  9. Most of the church will go through the tribulation, which to me, has already started, and will become more apparent with the upcoming economic collapse, bringing on famine, ( 3rd horse).

    1 Thess appears to be talking about the wrath ( trumpets and vials) which occur after the 6th seal. This is a trial for the whole earth, not only the saints. If Thess was only about the saints, it would have said so.

    But Thess is about the whole world, including God’s enemies and other unbelievers.

    When the man of perdition is revealed, the bride will be taken away, but we are here until that happens.

    • Hi Marianne,

      If I could briefly reply to this comment that you have made here.
      I think that you as well as many others, are looking at the state of this world, its persecutions, its atrocities and trials, and are forgetting who is really responsible for them here and now, and are instead associating them to being a part of the Tribulation.

      I believe what the world has been experiencing since the initial fall has been the work of satan, not the wrath of God. And this is simply continuing today.

      I would pose this question to you to perhaps substantiate the above statement. ” Is Yeshua God?”
      Which I would suspect that you would reply with the answer “Yes.” Therefore would not the “seals” then, be considered to be a part of God’s wrath?
      Would not Rev.5:1 “And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.” Be referring to God the Father?

      I personally associate, what it is that God did to Pharaoh to free His people to be a foreshadowing to the seals.
      With each seal being more severe in nature to get the people to open their eyes and acknowledge His sovereignty, and that Yeshua is the Messiah and means of salvation. That essentially, is the whole point of the Bible, and the “true church” already acknowledges this.

      And for just one of many verses that state the same thing.
      “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Romans 5:9

      Be Blessed

      • Also, If you read 2 Thess.2:6,7 in context, since it described in a little more detail than that of verse 3 you will see that the church has to be caught up, before the man of lawlessness can be revealed.
        The chosen at that time, will never even see him.

        • hi alienated

          Consider this. The jews were still in Egypt when the Pharoah experienced the judgment and wrath of God. They had not left yet.

          So may we be around during the seals. We do not get raptured, come back at the 5th seal, get martyred, then leave again.

          The woman evolves in rev 12. first she is just natural Israel fleeing to the wilderness. Then she becomes the mother of those with the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are persecuted by the dragon and so also flee to the wilderness. If these believers are true enough to be attacked by the dragon, then they are still around, and have not been raptured yet.

          Regarding Thess. – we do not know when, during the last week that the man of perdition reveals himself. I would assume it is mid way. We are therefore around during the first half of the final week.

          There are many covenants made with Israel. So it will be in September 2011. But is this the one that is for 7 years? If there is no way to tell, then we have to wait until the abomination to be sure, which is mid way during the final week.

          • Hi Marianne,

            I don’t believe that the Hebrews of that time experienced the wrath of God. I believe that they were passed over, and it was only the Egyptians and Pharaoh that felt that wrath.

            No we don’t get raptured, come back at the 5th seal, get martyred, then leave again either.
            We get raptured and then only come back with Yeshua to set up His Millenial Kingdom.
            The Kingdom of Heaven.

            Those that you say are still around will be those that finally figure it out during the Tribulation.
            They weren’t believers at the time of the rapture.

            23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in : for God is able to graff them in again.

            24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

            25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
            Romans 11:23,25.

            Where you say, “Regarding Thess. – we do not know when, during the last week that the man of perdition reveals himself. I would assume it is mid way. We are therefore around during the first half of the final week.”

            I believe that to be speculation, for where in scripture does it say that the rapture takes place “immediately” before the man of lawlessness is revealed?
            It is going to take some time for this individual to attain a position of authority. He is not just going to walk in one day out of nowhere and be able to establish a covenant of peace, let alone be able to somehow convince the Muslims that a new Temple should be built where the Dome of the Rock stands today. However he might be able to do this over the course of 3 1/2 years.

            • alienated

              that was my point. The hebrews did not experience the wrath, but were protected, just as the believers are protected when the dragon goes after them in Rev 12. So even though there is trouble, they are still physically here, not raptured.

              God did not “rapture” the hebrews out of egypt first, THEN sent the plagues. They were still physically there. So you can have the simultaneous presence of believers and tribulation / wrath.

              I think it is speculation also to assume the rapture occurs long before the antichrist is revealed. Literally, it says there is no meeting in the air until this happens. There are reasons why the AC comes to power, during trouble and tribulation when people are looking for a savior….that is how many dictators come to power….

              • Hi Marianne,

                I do understand your point.
                Where you say, “that was my point. The Hebrews did not experience the wrath, but were protected, just as the believers are protected when the dragon goes after them in Rev 12. So even though there is trouble, they are still physically here, not raptured.”

                It is my understanding that these are the remnant spoken of in Isaiah 27:13
                And yes, God will as it is written protect them.
                This is also from where the 144,000 will come out of. They were “caught up” as well as described in Rev.12:5.

                Now there are two interesting things to take into consideration here.

                (1) Would these be raptured before the actual church itself?

                And,

                (2) This is the only time in the whole book of Revelation, that the Greek word
                “Harpazo” is used.

                Where you say, “God did not “rapture” the hebrews out of egypt first, THEN sent the plagues. They were still physically there. So you can have the simultaneous presence of believers and tribulation / wrath.”

                The Hebrews could not have been raptured up, because they hadn’t even been given the law yet, or the futile attempt that it offered for it to reconcile them to God. So I believe that the “simultaneous presence” was the only option.

                And in rearding your last comment, I think that it comes down to ones interpretation of those particular verses. And on that we simply choose to disagree.
                I still luvs ya though.🙂

                Be Blessed

          • Hi Marianne,

            Please show us using Scripture where in the 5th seal that shows the church being resurrected and the living being caught up.

            • don

              The church is not resurrected. It has not left yet at the 5th seal. It leaves at the 6th one.

              The living are caught up at the 6th seal, when the sun turns dark, the moon turns red, and the earthquake occurs, according to Matthew 24.

              Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

              Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

              Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

              Mat 24:29 matches the 6th seal

              Rev 6:12 ¶ And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

              So Mat 24:29 = Rev 6:12 = time of rapture.

              • This is referring to Yeshua’s Second Coming and His establishing of the 1000 year Kingdom of Heaven.

  10. The Elect may be restricted to time and place, a special revelation about a certain historic time and event, and not have anything more or special to do with Christian Salvation. When a Prophecy is made concerning the “Dooms’ in the world as God is offended, the Elect would mean those Christians caught up in the evil times, such as suggested by Ecclesiastes 9:11. It may be wrong to keep sending people To Israel, particularly Jews, who are not yet saved, when America is floundering and about to be beguiled to endorse a Palestinian State in the U.N. God sent warnings in disaster after disaster ,but people today are not connecting the dots, they think everything is a coincidence, and think their endorsement of Palestine is a cause for world peace. Obviously Americans do not understand yet the Islamic Mind Set. and falsely make equivocations that Peace will not lead to War. So it may be wrong to keep sending innocent people to Israel and it may be correct to tell the Israelites ” Come out of her my children ,that you not be partakers of her sins” And bring them home to America, where God may yet protect us all.

  11. In the Book of Ruth, the marriage of Boaz to Ruth is an excellent foreshadowing of the parable of the Ten Vigins. Matthew 25:1-13.

    “To understand the choosing of the bride, we must first study the typology that teaches of the relationship between Boaz and Ruth. In Ruth 3:1-10, Boaz is presented as a type of Christ in the choosing of His bride. This happens after his field has been harvested (type of the Rapture) and brought to the threshing floor for the purpose of separating the wheat from the chaff (type of the Judgment Seat of Christ). However, before this occurs, Ruth (a type of the Bride of Christ), a “Gentile” and near kinsman of Boaz, was instructed by Naomi (a type of the Holy Spirit through the Word) to go to Boaz, while he was at the threshing floor during the night, and to ask him to become her kinsman redeemer (this included marriage). Further, Naomi instructed her that before she went she must first cleanse and anoint herself (type of all sin having been confessed and the obtaining of a double portion of the Spirit). Then, she was told to go and lie at the feet of Boaz and do whatever He says [act of total submission]. This action shows in type form, the “faithful and wise” [Matthew 24:45-51] who have knowledge of the kingdom. This is so, because the feet of Boaz are a type of the feet of Jesus, which is emblematic of His coming kingship when He will dispose of Satan and judge the nations (Romans 16:20; Isaiah 63:6; Revelation 1:15; 19:15). Finally, the scripture tells us that this happened at “midnight,” which shows that Ruth, representing the Bride of Christ, was spiritually awake (watching for the coming of the Lord) while the other maidens (the rest of the saved) were asleep. Thus the choosing of the Gentile Bride of Christ will occur immediately after the midnight-cry (the rapture of the Church). (Shock & Surprise Beyond the Rapture by Gary T. Whipple, Th.M., Schoettle Publishing Co., Inc., 2003)”

    The parable of the Ten Virgins describes who specifically will be chosen as the Bride and be betrothed to Yeshua. Those that arrived to late without any “oil” and found the door “shut” will be those who remain and are referred to as the “saints” in the book of Revelation.

    The true church itself, has been “caught up” before any aspect of the Tribulation takes place.

    “7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write ; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth , and no man shutteth ; and shutteth , and no man openeth ;

    8 I know thy works: behold , I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

    9 Behold , I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie ; behold , I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev.3:7-10

    This is why the word Church “Ekklesia” is not utlized after Rev.3:14 up and until Rev.22:16, and that the word “saints” (Hagios) is utilized instead.

    There is also the distinct possibility, as innocuous as it might sound,
    that the word “door” that is used in Matthew 25:10, is also referring to the same door as Rev.4:1 where John has been caught up to heaven.
    For the word “door” is never used again once, in the entire book of Revelation.

    Just my interpretation of events.

    Be Blessed

    • Now, I am more than aware that some may respond to the above by saying that, “The word “saints” have been used throughout the New Testament to refer to the church!”
      And with that I would agree.

      However this, (Revelation), though written by the hand of John, is in actuality, an epistle of Yeshua Himself explaining the end of times. Therefore I think that it should be looked at with fresh eyes.

      It is simply an error for those that take a specific word and its definition, and then carry it forward to having maintained that previous definition, every time it is mentioned.
      This error of doctrine is referred to as “illegitimate totality transfer.” An “illegitimate totality transfer” is an exegetical error of importing the “sense of meaning” of a word or phrase as determined in one context or linguistic setting into all uses of the word or phrase regardless of context or linguistic setting. It is essentially a function of the inappropriate study of God’s Word and the practice of jumping to theological conclusions.

      Those that utilize this philosophy tend to formulate conclusions, which are supportive of their preconceived beliefs. To the extent, that they will take this methodology of reasoning and then actually discard it, and replace the context of a previously understood “term or phrase”, and apply a completely new definition to it to support their understanding.

      An example of this would be the word “elect” in Matthew 24:22. If one was to carry forth its original definitions, (as they wish to apply the same to the word saints, in the book of Revelation) Then the church wouldn’t even be considered to be what is being referred to here. For within its original context the understanding is meant to either represent the Messiah or Israel itself.

      The references that would have been utilized at the time, would have only been in the scrolls of the Tanakh.

      Isaiah 42:1 utilizes the word “elect” to refer to the Messiah.

      Isaiah 45:4 speaks of Israel being God’s “elect”.

      Isaiah 65:9 speaks of Israel as the “elect” inheriting the land.

      Isaiah 65:22 speaks of Israel as His “elect” building the Kingdom in the future new heaven and earth.

      The Hebrew transliterated word for “elect” is “Bachiyr”, Strong’s # 0972 and it’s definitions are as follows;
      “chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God) ”

      Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time, the “church” did not exist.

      Yet now it has taken on a whole new meaning? One of being solely representative of the church as we know it.

      This has led to most of the confusion as to how end time events will take place. I do not believe that the word “elect” is referring to the church at all here. But is rather referring to the remnant of Jews that will accept Yeshua that will come out of the Tribulation.

      “12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

      13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown , and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.”
      Isaiah 27:12,13.

      And that Matthew 24:27-31 (see above) is referring to the actual Second Coming “AFTER” the Tribulation to establish his Millenial Kingdom. I ask all to read this chapter with this particular mind set, and see if the pieces of the puzzle don’t all seem to fall together, and that this premise isn’t more in line with the correct context of the passages?

      For those of you who through the Spirit are led to understand this, or in just referring to scripture as the Berean’s did.
      Then you may see that to also carry through the previous definitions to the word “saints” into the book of Revelation, could perhaps be the incorrect thing to does well?

      Just my thoughts,

      Be Blessed

      • Alienated
        Couple of things that came up in my reading, pertaining to the ten virgins. You probably have these scriptures already, but will post them anyway.

        Luke 13:24 “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.”

        Luke 12:47-48 ” And that servant who knew his masters will, but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a SEVERE BEATING. 48. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating will receive a LIGHT beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom THEY entrusted much, They will demand more.” (read v35-48)

        Also the parable of the Barren fig tree (Luke 13:6-9)

        Again, These are just some scriptures that came up in my reading that led me to think of our discussions on the ten virgins.

        • Hi Dru,

          Yes, as I wrote in that composition that I emailed to you, ” I am always amazed when conducting biblical study, how it is that something that appears so relatively short, can in actuality contain so much substance.” One thing leads to another thing, which leads to another, which really shouldn’t be surprising, since it is all so interconnected.

          It has and continues to be, a wonderful study.

          Be Blessed Dru.

          • Alienated
            One other question I now have is how does revalation 20:4 relate to those who are raptured. For these people are clearly those that are in the tribulation,(not raptured), and they will rule during the millenial reign with Jesus. Perhaps all are considered elect, including those that pass the “tests” of the tribulations first five seals???
            In other words, my initial statements on who the elect are, is correct, the one you partially agreed with? Or to put it differently: Where is the bride during the millenium? Are they part of the first resurrection (verse5)?

          • Or are the raptured ones the Judges at the beginning of verse 4, and the ones going through the tribulation and passing the tests, the priests (verse6)??

            • Hi Dru,

              I will try to answer your question for you.

              Yeshua was the firstfruits that was resurrected from the dead and ascended to the Father, right?
              The word “first” implies that there could be others, or perhaps even many.

              The next one will be the true church that is described in Matthew 25:1-13. 1 Thess.4:13-18, 1 Corinth. 15:50-55. as well as many other verses that you are probably more than aware of yourself. This event is referred to in scripture as the “first resurrection”.

              The one after that would be the 144,000 born of Israel since that is the only time that the word “Harpazo” is mentioned within Revelation. And there is a reason for that.

              Simply because here, a rapture, or being caught up to heaven isn’t necessary now. However, further resurrections will still occur.

              I believe that in keeping within the proper context, that Revelation 18 through 20 are relatively chronological.
              (Though as I have expressed to Marianne, that this is sometimes difficult to ascertain, and that the book itself has not been the focus of my study) With that said, it does appear by what is written, that the Millenial Kingdom on earth has already been established here. The thrones of judgment will only appear at that time. Psalm 122, Matthew 9:28, Matthew 25:31 for just a few examples.

              Rev.20:4.
              “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

              This “resurrection” would include not only those that weren’t chosen to be the bride, within what we refer to as the rapture resurrection (and were left behind), but also, all of those as well that they witnessed to during that time, that came to the salvation faith of Yeshua.
              (I suspect that those that are left behind will know exactly “why” it is that happened. I don’t think that God will leave any doubt in their hearts as to why.)

              (Now, not to get completely off topic here, but I believe that this could be what the rewards that are written about are referring to. Not be be flippant, but the first prize is to become betrothed to Yeshua. The second prize is then, to still be considered worthy enough to rule and reign during the Millenial Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
              With that said, I am still trying to understand some things.
              Because, since a distinction has been made between believers within the parable of Matthew 25:1-13 as well as in other parables, with God being just, it stands to reason that there has to be consistency with this distinction for all. Therefore, I have yet to determine if there will be some of us that only received the promise of salvation who have died, that will remain in heaven during this 1000 year time frame? For this glorified body that is spoken about, appears to be only a necessity for those that will partake within this specific kingdom.
              It is not a prerequisite for ones soul to ascend to heaven after death to have a resurrected body. Sorry, I digress. My bad.)

              But I believe with God being merciful, that He will still give them an opportunity to redeem themselves.
              Just as described throughout the millennia of the Old Testament there will be many who choose to repent and prove themselves worthy, even up to the point for some, to being killed for it.
              And unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to save their life instead, and will worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark. The same story has been played out over and over again in scripture.

              All of those having proved themselves worthy, are “only resurrected” if they have died. Again there is no need for a rapture to heaven to take place. All of those that are still alive, deserve, having proved themselves worthy in the most horrifying conditions of persecution that I could ever think of, are now just as worthy of ruling and reigning as those that were selected to do so earlier. Their reward or payment for their faithfulness will be the same.

              I believe that Yeshua Himself speaks about this in the parable regarding the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 20:1-16.

              1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

              2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

              3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

              5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

              6 And about the eleventh hour he went out , and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

              7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive .

              8 So when even was come , the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

              9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

              10 But when the first came , they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

              11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying , These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

              13 But he answered one of them, and said , Friend, I do thee no wrong : didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

              14 Take that thine is, and go thy way : I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

              15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own ? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

              16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.”

              In respects to your question regarding verse 5. It certainly helps if you possess at least a lay mans understanding of the Greek grammatical structure of the day. But this is one of those verses that throw many for a loop. It is very easy for someone to derive from what is written, that the “souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.” is what is “only” being referred to within verse 5 as being the first resurrection. But I believe that it is not.
              Instead I believe that it is referring to the “collective” of all who have attained worthiness to rule and reign.

              Hope that this possibly offers you some insight.

              I have found that in posting here, that it unfortunately pulls me away from my studies, which obviously take precedent. If I haven’t answered any other questions that have been asked, by anybody I apologize. And I wish you all the blessings of the Spirit in your further studies.

              Be Blessed

    • Alienated.

      this is a whole post in itself:

      I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

      Is this referring to the tribulation of the saints, (Israel and / or christians) referenced in rev 12,

      or…..

      is this referring to the wrath of God upon the wicked?

      • Valid question. One that should be explored more fully.

        However, in the passage that it is written the context appears to be that this is a reward for an accomplishment for those individulas.
        ” I know thy works,and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.” Therefore, ” I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

        And with the definition of the Greek word “Peirasmos” translated into the English “temptation” Strongs #3986, I believe that the verse is descirbing that those who have proven themselves worthy will be kept, or escape, the whole of the tribulation within the rapture.

        “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV.

  12. I’m sorry, but I feel that I should have added this as well, for those who may not be aware.

    “Justification” and our reconciliation to God, which is attained through the act of being “born again” of the Spirit, is not the be all and end all of our faith. Rather it is just the beginning of the journey.

    In being born again the believer does receive the promise of eternal life, (Acts 2:33 and Ephesians 1:13).
    “And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.” 1 John 2:23-25.
    So the promise itself is indeed “eternal life” but it is NOT necessarily being chosen to be the “bride” as well.

    If that was indeed the case, what would be the motivation for Yeshua to say, “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV. (?)

    As well, why would Paul say, “Quench not the Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) if there wasn’t a consequence for doing so?

    There is a difference between those of us who are saved and depend totally on the gift of grace, and those of us who attempt to the best of their ability to surrender daily, and allow for the Spirit to have precedence in their lives.

    This is the sanctification process of the believer that evolves either in a positive or negative manner throughout his physical life, depending upon whether or not he lives for himself (gains his soul/life) during his temporal existence, or lives for Christ (loses his soul/life). If he “gains his soul” here, he will lose it there. If he loses his soul for Christ’s sake here, he will gain/find it there (Matthew 16:24-27).

    A Christian who loses his soul at the Judgment Seat of Christ because of his waywardness in this life will lose his rewards, which will be manifested in loss of his future quality of life during the millennial reign of Christ upon earth. He will either be chosen to rule and reign with Christ in the coming kingdom, or be excluded from ruling in it by the side of Christ. By living “according to the Spirit,” he will either gain great power and ability to produce great works; or, by living “according to the flesh,” he will lose his ability and power to accomplish any future works whatsoever (Matthew 25:28, Romans 8:5-8).

    I would suggest that everyone read the link below to gain a better understanding of what our resonsibility consists of within this ongoing process of sanctification, and also truly understand what is a stake.

    http://www.bibleone.net/print_tbs97.html

    Be Blessed

  13. Hi all,

    Here is something that I think that everyone should take into consideration in attempting to understand the sequence of events regarding scripture, the rapture, and the Second Coming.

    The reason that Paul was the only one that spoke of the “catching up”
    of the true church, was because he was the only one that Yeshua chose to reveal this to. It was part and parcel of his ministry.

    None of the other Apostles even knew about this before Paul told them. This is confirmed in 2 Peter 3:15,16.

    “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
    “in which are some things hard to be understood”, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”

    Therefore it stands to reason that there is a distinct possibility that passages like Matthew 24:29-31 are speaking specifically about the end of days, “after” the tribulation and of Yeshua’s Second Coming to establish His Millennial Kingdom of heaven.
    Rather than that of the rapture.

    Just had to throw that out there.

    Be Blessed

    • So if Matt 24 refers to the second coming, rather than the rapture, then the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and the wrath begins…which is what I believe. No one goes into the wrath (trumpets and vials) except the wicked.?

      • Hi Marianne,

        It is best that I don’t comment on that specifically.
        The sequence of events as to whether they are chronological or not, is difficult to ascertain in Revelation.
        My exploration has consisted mainly in attempting to discover the truth of when it is that the rapture itself will take place, and though this involves to some extent in utilizing Revelation, the intricacies of the book itself has not been the focus of my study.

        I have expressed many of the points that I have discovered throughout this exploration over the last few days, that I believe are significant for all of us collectively to perhaps attain a better understanding regarding this.
        Again, examples of a few;

        – Paul being the only one that Yeshua revealed this specific knowledge to. Hence, could not all references written prior to Paul, be only be referring to the second coming?

        – The fact that the New Testament itself, is simply a continuation of the Old, and that to take the word”elect” prior to the church being either a physical or spiritual entity, as being representative of such, may be the cause behind some of this confusion. Where in actuality it is more plausible that it is representative of that of Israel.
        ( Perhaps if I rephrased that last point in the following manner, it would make what it is that I am trying to convey clearer to understand.)

        “The word “elect” in referring to the church, only took effect and became reality in Jerusalem, when the Spirit of promise was given on Shavuot,(or Pentecost).
        But prior to that happening the word elect, rather than referring to the “church” is referring, (depending on it’s context and linguistic setting.”), as it has throughout the millennia of the Old Testament. That being either the Messiah or Israel.

        The New Testament is simply a continuation of the Old. Definitions to identify specific individuals or groups don’t necessarily change arbitrarily “unless something occurs to effect that change”.

        Just as it took Yeshua’s actual death on the Cross, (where the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent), His subsequent resurrection, and ascension to the Father to create the New Covenant, , it took the giving of the Holy Spirit as being a necessary determining factor, to create the Church.
        Prior to that happening, since the church itself didn’t exist either physically or spiritually, how could the word elect possibly be referring to it?” Therefore, I believe that in this particular case, it isn’t.

        I have just simply thrown these aspects out there for all to consider, with the hopes that some may take them into consideration as Berean’s, to assist them in their studies. Perhaps the answer to your question could be better provided by somebody else?

        Be Blessed

        • It seems strange that Yeshua spent 3 years with his disciples, and never mentioned the rapture. Then Paul, a convert, who never spent time with him, gets this message about it.

          • Hey I just didn’t pull this outta the blue…

            13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

            14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

            15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

            16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; “in which are some things hard to be understood”, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:13-16.

            Strange as it may seem to us, Yeshua still does things as He pleases. We can all have a chat with Him about it when we see Him.🙂

            Be Blessed

            • Alienated, Marianne
              Paul’s ministry was primarily to the gentiles. while Jesus was talking to a largely Jewish audience. Not to say what Jesus said was race specific, but perhaps he foreknew that the Jews would reject his salvation and him as their Messiah, until the tribulation.

              Just a thought.

              • Yes Yeshua knew Dru, He made this prophetic statement.

                Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43

              • Hi Dru, Marianne and Alienated,

                If I might interject here, regarding this Jesus said:

                “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me– just as the Father knows me and I know the Father– and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.”
                (John 10:14-16)

                So here we have Jesus making reference to “other sheep,” which of course is regarding the Gentile believers.

          • If I may again:

            Marianne said:
            “It seems strange that Yeshua spent 3 years with his disciples, and never mentioned the rapture. Then Paul, a convert, who never spent time with him, gets this message about it.”

            You mean Paul, the one who was caught up to the third heaven where he received excedingly great visions and revelations directly from the Lord, that Paul?

            ““I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know–God knows. And I know that this man–whether in the body or apart form the body I do not know, but God knows– was caught up to paradise. He heard things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan, to torment me.” (II Cor.12:2-7)

            “When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.” (Acts 19:6)

            “God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.” (Acts 19:11-12)

            “One day, the evil spirit answered them, Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” (Acts 19:15)

            “Seated in a window was a young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from the third story and was picked up dead. Paul went down, threw himself on the young man and put his arms around him. “Don’t be alarmed,” he said, “He’s alive!”
            (Acts 20;9-10)

            “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.” (Gal.1:11-12)

            “But, when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was please to reveal his Son to me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned Damascus.” (Gal.1:15-17)

            Paul could not have done the miralces that he did and lay hands on other believers causing them to be batpized in the Holy Spirit unless he was a genuine apostle. In fact, Paul seems to be the most active and Spirit filled out of all of them. I would go as far as to say that, in regards to the names of the twelve apostles being written on the foundations of the New Jerusalem, Paul’s name will be among them and not Matthias.

            Though Paul may not have been apart of the original twelve, he did spend a lot of time in communication with the Lord and the Holy Spirit directly, even being caught up to heaven, either in vision or bodily. When the disciples lost Judas, they rolled lots to see who whould replace him, which fell to Matthias, but I believe that the Lord had in mind who would replace him, which was Paul.

            • In addition, if anyone was to question the validity of Paul’s apostleship, there is definitely sufficient proof to backup his genuiness and authority. For, prior to Paul’s conversion, he was proud of his heritage, his standing among his peers, circumcised on the eighth day, belonging to the people of Israel, from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, in regards to the law, a pharisee, as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.

              Paul would not have thrown all that away only to turn around and put himself in the same position as Stephan who was stoned and the church that he was presecuting. His transformation alone shows that he had a real encounter with the risen Lord.

              There are People who claim that Paul was a false apostle and a liar. They have even written a book entitled, “The Problem with Paul.” Paul would not have put himself in continual jeopardy day and night, year after year, by pretending to be an apostle. Being circumcised, a Pharisee, from the tribe of Benjamin, legalistic and anything else that he demeeded of worth, Paul said, “But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.”

              To respond to your comment, yes, I do think that God would entrust Paul with the information regarding the catching away (rapture) as well as the insight to our being saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law and many other valuable truths that were disclosed through him and I say, Amen for that and praise be to God for all that he revealed through Paul.

  14. hey guys

    Since the issue of the rapture evolved here, I made a separate post out of it. It is typical here to get off the subject and onto another one. This post was about earthquakes. The new one is about the rapture. I just put my thoughts there, up for debate.

  15. Dear Don

    I finally got the part about the wrath of God and it not being for his children. I had to ensure that I found the scriptures and read them to understand and to accept.

    But here is a question I don’t understand why are so many of Gods’ children suffering now?

    Is the suffering currently going on just the regular suffering promised as Children of God that we would suffer the same as Jesus did, in order that we receive in the inheritance also?

    I understand that we are not to grumble or complain about our issues. But the word says in the end if he could wear the saints he would, so I wondered if that time is now?

    The Jewish Hebrew calandar says it is 5997 march 29-2011 and that Israel is 63 years old. Does that mean at some point this year we will enter tribulation? I say this as the 63=7years=70 of the generation and it says we would enter the millinium reign at this time.

    So I think that means some time soon the anti-christ is going to make himself known by saying I am so and so? I also think that means the Jews will sign by force or by acceptance the treaty and then it says the reveal will take place, right. So based on your understanding how long would people remain, until the 5th chapter of revelations is full filled?

    • Hello again Pattie,

      To answer your question, the things that happen to us on this earth, even as believers, is basically the result of sin. God never promised that we as believers would be exempt from the hardships that take place here. Simply put, many suffer because we are on this planet. Anyone who has not received Christ, belongs to Satan, for there is not gray area. Many go through trouble because the world is full of evil and it will continue to get worse as we move towards those very last days. These troubles however should not be confused with the wrath of God. Our problems as believers could be summed up in the following verse:

      “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritaul forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” (Ephesians 6:12)

      This verse is saying that the problems that we face are because they are orchestrated by Satan and his angels, who are the powers of darkness working in the spiritual realm. While a true Christian cannot be posessed by a demonic being, they can and do affect things that are going on around us in the world.

      Regarding the antichrist, my own personal belief is that Daniel 9:27 established the time-frame for those very last days, which is the completion of the seventy ‘sevens’ that were prophecied for Israel. Sixty-nine of those seven year periods were completed at the crucifixion of Christ, which leaves one seven year period unfulfilled. I believe that once the building of the church has been completed, God will resurrect the dead in Christ and catch up those believers who are still living and then that antichrist, that man of lawlessness, will reveal himself. Once he makes his covenent with many as stated in Dan.9:27, then half way through that seven year period he will set up that abomination in the coming temple in Jerusalem and this is what will cause the desolation of Jerusalem. After that, there will be only 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns to the earth to establish his millennial kingdom.

      My personal belief based on what I have studied, is that we, the church, will be gone before the first seal is opened, which I believe to be the beginning of the the wrath of God and that because Jesus is the one opening the seals and therefore he is responsible for their results, as well as for the results of the trumpets and bowl judgments which follow. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked (see Gen.18:22-33)and since the entire earth will be exposed to God’s wrath I believe that we will be removed before it begins.

      Regarding those days of wrath, also known as the “day of the Lord,”
      God said the following:

      “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. (Isa.13:12)

      And regarding the above verse, and those last days, Jesus said:

      “Unless those days were cut short no one would survive, but for the elect’s sake, those days will be shortened.”

      So, the result of the wrath of God will be the decimation of the earth’s population, which is carried out through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with Jesus returning at their completion to set up his millennial kingdom.

      The emergence of this antichrist/beast is, I believe, right around the corner, which means our departure is near. It is just a matter of God’s timing. In regards to the covenent, I believe that to the Jews it will at first seem to be a good thing because this man of lawlessness will play a big part in making it possible for them to build their long awaited temple and to reestablish their levitical sacirfies, but as soon as that abomination gets set up in the holy place as described in Dan.9:27 and Mt.24:15, then Jeruslem will know that he is not their Messiah and will flee into the judean wilderness which is the desolation. This is when he will be probclaming himself to be God as described in 2 Thes.2:4 and Rev.13:8.

      I hope that I was able to give some insite to your concerns. It is important for you to know the truth for yourself and so I would suggest checking out the verses that I listed and study the related verses on these subjects. The only way to do that is to emerse yourself into God’s word. When one does this, then more of the pieces of the puzzle come into focus. Here is an example, read Rev.12:1 and then go read Genesis 37:9-10 and tell me what your findings are. I look foreward to hearing back from you.

      In Christ

  16. Don

    I agree with what you said but here is a question I don’t understand. Jesus is opening the seals and isn’t the 5 wise virgins in heaven at this time of the wrath? So if we are at the marriage ceremony and he is opening the seals and so on. Does it say in some place that the Bride of Christ will be watching the wrath.

    I know it speaks of the 24 elders. I thought this was going on while the Bride was at the marriage ceremony. But how can she be at the wedding and the bridegroom be opening the vessels of the wrath? Does that make sense.

    I agree about studying the word and I have studied and had the word of end times preached to me for many years but what I understand today if far different than I often heard preached. I now want to say you helped my understanding on somethings as you opened my eyes about the wrath.

    I did not answer earlier as my Husband had a massive asthma then heart attack, then pneumonia, then two surgeries and lost 5 pints of blood now 3-4 weeks later he is almost like new again and that only happens by lots of prayer and the grace of God.

    So please don’t be offended if you think I was delayed in answering you. I ask as I found the word you gave me to be true.

    God bless you for you help and support.

  17. The biggest earthquake in the 20th century was China. Over 200,000+ died.
    Then there was the one that created the Asian Tsunami followed by Pakistan.
    Then Japan and that one is in the biblical prophecies because it relates to the family of Joseph.
    Another big one will be destruction of Damascus. Prophet Isaiah describes the destruction but does not say how. Most people have assumed it would be through war. However, the Quran also predicts a huge earthquake and not where. My view is that the LORD will destroy the crossroads of all of the religions to put an end to them finally. Only then will the people really know he means business.

    http://academysounds.blogspot.com/2011/05/damascus-destroyed.html
    ELIJAH SEVERITY
    http://academysounds.blogspot.com/2011/06/elijah-severity.html

  18. Eliakim,

    I read much of the post, Elijah-severity. I understand now where the things you say are coming from. It is a mix of religion and alchemy;

    Via Old French and Medieval Latin from Arabic al-kimiya (the chemistry), from Greek khemeia (transmutation).

    Your blog name was in bold print in the heading of the article Elijah-Severity. Is this something you wrote? Just wondering!

  19. The LORD is waiting to be kind to you. He rises to have compassion on you. The LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him.

    Isaiah 30:

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