Seals Overlap

clip_image002

Tribulation is a time of increasing destruction.

Revelation 6 is given below.

Note that the Seals are opened one at a time.

Nowhere does it say that once a seal is opened, it is then closed, and another seal is opened.

This means that once a seal is opened, it remains opened while other seals are opened.

And this means that the Tribulation events get worse and worse, and destruction increases over time:

Revelation 6King James Version (KJV)

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

clip_image003

This is actually a compassionate way to wake people up as trouble comes.

Instead of all coming at once, which would be overwhelming, each seal is opened, one at a time, and people are allowed in their distress to repent.

In my view, the seals have been partially opened for 2000 years. But one would open, then close.

At times, for example, we would have famine, but then we would prosper again.

Or, there would be a time of pestilence, as in the bubonic plague, but then that would pass.

Or, there would be a war, but it would finally end.

image

In the Tribulation, things just get worse.

We are entering into this now, just maybe days, weeks, or months to go.

Even one of these seals by themselves is unbearable.

Only with the Lord’s help will any of us make it to the end.

Time to repent.

Humble ourselves before God,

Ask for forgiveness and mercy.

Advertisements

329 Responses to “Seals Overlap”

  1. I think you are correct that the things of the past were temporary times but more permanent one-off things are happening these last decades that happened before to a small degree but happen now in full. The Man of Lawlessness is prophesied in the writings of Paul the Apostle as a sign of the coming of Christ drawing near. When in the late sixties the worldwide rebellions and the mass embracing of rebellion became fashionable and China followed other countries in having rebellion put to the top of the agenda and justified by its leaders and set a trend still followed till today around the world, the end came into sight for believers in the prophecy. Perhaps the atrocities of war such as the Vietnam War triggered or fuelled it. So too now we have it fuelled by over the top use of weaponry and excessive sophistication of weaponry. The fire from the sky terrorising of political enemies fuels the desire for leaders to justify rebellion because people in fear harden their hearts against excessive domination of their lives and long for a way out that justifies sin. People lose heart trying to resist sin and obey authority. They see no hope except in rebellion. They do not see Christ and forget that Christ died on a cross of wood to provide a better way. Soon Christ will come. But only in the midst of a greater time of evil than the Rebellion: He will come during the last tribulation of the prophesied 666 trial. The 666 trial will come on all the Earth and try hearts of all. In this time Christ will come and bring it to an end and help those who refuse to be branded with that 666 sign. They say times like this 666 tribulation happened in the Middle Ages with merchants needing branded hands to trade, then the Holocaust showed the device of devilry happening again with a precursor of computers being used to support number system tatoos of Hebrew people under the awful oppressive Nazis. But 666 on a worldwide scale will happen as Christ is about to come and be interrupted by His coming. Tribulation is indeed just about to get a whole lot worse.

  2. So it looks like 2 Thessalonians 2 rebellion has begun and is happening and possibly a Man of Lawlessness mentioned and who will remain until the Lord comes is prototyped in a few key leaders who have been endorsing rebellion and justifying rebels on mass but maybe 2 Thessalonians means there will be a more terrible one like this who will be alive at Christ’s coming and be defeated by Christ. It might coincide with the Revelation prophesied ten monarchs of the Beast (Europe?) and the leaders of the second Beast too and one of these monarchs or leaders instigating the 666 system because Christ coming will include overthrow of such and ending of the awful 666 system. The start of Enoch chapter 89 seems relevant to provide a closer look at times leading up to Christ’s return too, perhaps meaning times we are in from WW 2 onwards.

  3. I thought the first half of the Tribulation begins with Israel’s peace treaty?

    • Not necessarily. It can begin with either God and a Heavenly sign or with the Antichrist as in the case of the Norweigan Peace Medallion. But the key to those 7 year covenant’s is what happens at Passover when they occur
      For example, Israel became a nation in 1948 +62 Shavuots = 2009 and Obama’s Norweigian Peace Medallion in the 7th Biblical Month +1260 days = March 22, 2013 trip to Israel where 10 events occurred +1290 days = Day of Atonement, 2016. In 2010 5 planets lined up in a row on the 7th day of Feast of Tabernacles +1260 days = Passover 2014 and a shophar blowing out of the East for 4 to 7 minutes +1290 days = Day of Atonement, 2017.
      So which Covenant of Peace should we use to start the seven years even though there is no seven days of tribulation mentioned in the Bible but there is 10 days of Tribulation mentioned in the Bible where a day = a year.

    • marlene

      daniel mentions a covenant with many but does not say it is a peace treaty.

      it could be an alliance of israel’s enemies formed to attack Israel

      it could be the dividing of jerusalem or giving land for peace again, but there is no peace

      it could involve Israel’s participation or be an agreement without caring for Israel’s agreement or support, ie it is forced on israel

      the tribulation is 3 1/2 years….it is somewhere in daniel’s last week.

      we will know more as the situation develops

      • It can be deduced from the scripture that it will be a great benefit to Israel, for the making of the seven year covenant obviously allows them to build their temple and to begin to make offerings and sacrifices, which he puts a stop to in the middle of the seven years. Therefore, the covenant that he makes is obviously with Israel and will most likely include Islam, since the dome of the rock sits on the temple mount.

        • since they are refusing to recognize israel as a state and plan to take away jerusalem, this would make it less possible to have a temple…..but i hope to see this happen

          • Hello,

            The above would be impossible for too many reasons. The war of Ezekiel 37-38 still has to take place and Israel is still present in her land when this happens.

            There are also multiple prophesies of God returning Israel to their own land to be permanently established there.

            You have Jesus referring to the setting up of the abomination in the holy place within the temple which causes the desolation in the middle of that last seven years.

            Also, Paul states that the man of lawlessness, the antichrist, will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. This is yet to be fulfilled.

            These are just off the top of my head. I’m sure that there are plenty more reasons as to why Jerusalem will not be taken from them. The best reason is that, God won’t allow it.

      • Regarding the covenant, Revelation 13:5 says And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

        Daniel 9:27 says He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

        If seven is indicative of seven years, which I believe it is, it is equal to 84 months, the middle of which is 42 months.

        It appears that mankind will give the beast authority for 42 months. Perhaps by election? Election could certainly be considered a covenant. And from my POV, it seems as if mankind hasn’t been too discerning in that area for many years.

        • that might be possible ie through elections

        • Good day charfox,

          You said:
          “It appears that mankind will give the beast authority for 42 months. Perhaps by election? Election could certainly be considered a covenant. And from my POV, it seems as if mankind hasn’t been too discerning in that area for many years”

          The scripture does not say “mankind will give the beast authority” but it says that “he was given authority to act for forty-two months.” The beast is not going to be voted into office. The reason why the people will worship him and receive his mark is because for one, he will receive that fatal wound and will survive it and two, he will also have those miracles, signs and wonders being performed by the false prophet for the purpose of giving him credibility as being God. They will be counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, but the inhabitants of the earth won’t know that. They also won’t know that he is the antichrist/beast and that because they don’t read the word of God.

          • Yes Revelation 13:5 says “it was allowed to exercise authority”. But then you add Daniel 9:27. What the beast is allowed, he will also “confirm with many”.

            Since it is God who puts our rulers in place, also can He determine our election outcomes, giving the beast authority, the authority that is confirmed with many on earth. Election being just one possible scenario. It isn’t something we can know until that day, but shear speculation.

      • So let’s then just delete the 2009 Norweigian Peace Medallion for Obama, Israel becoming a nation in 1948, and the Day of the Lord possibly beginning on October 13th, 2016 and all 20 events that lead up to 2017 timeline and then add 10 years to the existing timeline for Jesus to return in 2030. And the Nibiru timeline will need to be extended to 2028.

  4. Isn’t amazing how the colors of the horses of the apocalypse are the same color as in the muslin countries flags.

  5. Book of Enoch LXXXIX. 1. And I observed during the time, that thus thirty-seven shepherds were overlooking, all of whom finished in their respective periods as the first. Others then received them into their hands, that they might overlook them in their respective periods, every shepherd in his own period. 2. Afterwards I saw in the vision, that all the birds of heaven arrived; eagles, the avest, kites and ravens. The eagle instructed them all. 3. They began to devour the sheep, to peck out their eyes, and to eat up their bodies. 4. The sheep then cried out; for their bodies were devoured by the birds. 5. I also cried out, and groaned in my sleep against that shepherd which overlooked the flock. 6. And I looked, while the sheep were eaten up by the dogs, by the eagles, and by the kites. They neither left them their body, nor their skin, nor their muscles, until their bones alone remained; until their bones fell upon the ground. And the sheep became diminished. 7. I observed likewise during the time, that twenty-three shepherds were overlooking; who completed in their respective periods fifty-eight periods. 8. Then were small lambs born of those white sheep; who began to open their eyes and to see, crying out to the sheep. 9. The sheep, however, cried not out to them, neither did they hear what they uttered to them; but were deaf, blind, and obdurate in the greatest degrees. 10. I saw in the vision that ravens flew down upon those lambs; 11. That they seized one of them; and that tearing the sheep in pieces, they devoured them. 12. I saw also, that horns grew upon those lambs; and that the ravens lighted down upon their horns. 13. I saw, too, that a large horn sprouted out on an animal among the sheep, and that their eyes were opened. 14. He looked at them. Their eyes were wide open; and he cried out to them. 15. Then the dabela saw him; all of whom ran to him. 16. And besides this, all the eagles, the avest, the ravens and the kites, were still carrying off the sheep, flying down upon them, and devouring them…. The sheep were silent, but the dabela lamented and cried out. 17. Then the ravens contended, and struggled with them. 18. They wished among them to break his horn; but they prevailed not over him. 19. I looked on them, until the shepherds, the eagles, the avest, and the kites came. 20. Who cried out to the ravens to break the horn of the dabela; to contend with him; and to kill him. But he struggled with them, and cried out, that help might come to him. 21. Then I perceived that the man came who had written down the names of the shepherds, and who ascended up before the Lord of the sheep. 22. He brought assistance, and caused every one to see him descending to the help of the dabela. 23. I perceived likewise that the Lord of the sheep came to them in wrath, while all those who saw him fled away; all fell down in his tabernacle before his face; while all the eagles, the avest, ravens, and kites assembled, and brought with them all the sheep of the field. 24. All came together, and strove to break the horn of the dabela. 25. Then I saw, that the man, who wrote the book at the word of the Lord, opened the book of destruction, of that destruction which the last twelve shepherds wrought; and pointed out before the Lord of the sheep, that they destroyed more than those who preceded them.

  6. Hello Marriane,

    You said:
    “In my view, the seals have been partially opened for 2000 years. But one would open, then close.”

    The first problem with the seals being opened partially for 2000 years is that, the 1st seal is representing the emergence of the antichrist, who has not yet to be revealed and who will not be revealed until the One who is restraining him is taken out of the way. According to Dan.9:27, he will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant.

    And second, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of God’s wrath leading up to the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. These plagues of wrath will decimate the population of the earth and will dismantle all human government.

    Since the antichrist is represented by the 1st seal and he hasn’t yet been revealed, then the 1st could not have been opened and therefore, neither could any of the other seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which are to follow.

    One last thing, at the 4th seal death and Hades are given power to kill a fourth of the earth’s inhabitants, which based on the current population of 7 billion, would be 1.7 billion fatalities from just the 4th seal alone. These fatalities are meant to take place within that last seven years. If they were spread out over 2000 years, no one would notice. But if such a great number of fatalities takes place within the beginning of the seven years, then the inhabitants of the earth will take notice, which is what these plagues of wrath are meant to do i.e. get peoples attention.

    • i still think that way

      the bible said that the antichrist spirit was already present, in the times of apostles.. I was not referring to an end time ruler, although there have been rulers in the last 2000 years who were antichrist in spirit, example hitler

      i consider the seals the tribulation, which matches matthew 24, and the trumpets and bowls the wrath of god, which is only for the wicked (saints will be gone)

      we have always, at times had wars. we have always at times had famines, and massive deaths, at times, due to various causes

      when i said partially open, i meant there was a partial fulfillment because those events did happen, but they were not yet on the global scale they will be on when they are fully open

      • Hi Marianne,

        When you break a seal on a scroll, it is either broken and able to be read or not broken and unable to be read. There is no partial broken. Also, the scripture speaks of both the spirit of the antichrist and the literal antichrist. The rider on the white horse that comes out at the first seal is referring to thee antichrist, not the spirit of antichrist. I find one of the most misunderstood prophesies regarding eschatology is the wrath of God. People have no idea what is going to come upon this earth, and many of them are professing Christian’s. These events of wrath are meant to take place within a short period of time and in close proximity to one another and not spread out over 2000 years.

        The announcement “The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it” includes the seals that will have taken place prior to this announcement. What I find that throws people off on their understanding of this, is that they think that the wrath only includes what follows the announcement, which is false thinking. The announcement could be better understood as “The great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.”

        These events of wrath are meant to affect the immediate population of the earth during those last seven years. Regarding the 4th seal, a fourth of the earth’s population would equal approx. 1.7 billion fatalities. Which do you think would get the inhabitants attention, 1.7 billion fatalities spread out over 2000 years, or 1.7 billion fatalities within one to two years?

        When considering this issue, we have to take into consideration of what Jesus said regarding the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which was that if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth. This type of decimation of the earth’s population would have to take place in close proximity, not spread out over 2000 years. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, which are the only two places that give a percentage, the fatalities will be 4.5 billion and that is not including the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets nor any of the bowl judgments.

        Also, the phrase “like a woman having birth pains” used by Jesus and Paul, supports these events of wrath as taking place in close proximity and not over a 2000 year period. The reference to nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes, etc. these will be events during that time on an unprecedented scale.

        That first seal, which is the revealing of the antichirst, has not yet taken place. Those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will begin like birth pains, starting off mild and far apart, growing in intensity and closer together as they go. They are meant to be noticed, to get the immediate populations attention and that would not be the case if they are spread out over 2000 years.

        • dmcal

          I guess you do not understand what I mean.

          I just meant that these events described, such as war, desease, famine, martyrdom, have been going on already for 2000 years. as bad as they are, they are limited.

          once the seals are broken, everything on the globe goes into turmoil.

          it means mankind never learned anything from the past 2000 years, and persists in its wickedness.

          i get the definition of seals from matthew 24 which describes the tribulation, after which jesus comes to get the saints.

          after that is wrath, which jesus does not describe to the saints

          • Wrath of God views
            1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Dy of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.
            2) Bowl Judgments, Armageddon Rapture at Passover.
            3) Armageddon Rapture on Day of Trumpet.

            • Hello jardalkal,

              You said:
              “1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Dy of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.”

              The three sets of seven judgments, seals, trumpets and bowls, all make up God’s wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. These judgments will run throughout the entire seven years leading up to Christ’s return to end the age.

              1 thes.5:9 states that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and 1 Thes.1:10 states that Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath. Jesus also said to the church of Philadelphia, that ” Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.”

              All that said, God is not going to put his church through his wrath and that because the wrath that we deserve was already poured out on Jesus, satisfying it. It would be a slap in the face to Jesus because he already experienced God’s wrath for us.

              Conclusion: Believers in Christ must be removed from the earth prior to the 1st seal being opened.

              • What I’m seeing is that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, in conjunction with the major earthquake, as it is directly after this that the great multitude that has come out of the tribulation is seen. This means that wars and famine occur first and they already occur to an extent.

                • Greetings chargfox,

                  You said:
                  “What I’m seeing is that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, in conjunction with the major earthquake, as it is directly after this that the great multitude that has come out of the tribulation is seen. This means that wars and famine occur first and they already occur to an extent.”

                  First point: Scripture makes clear that the church will not go through the wrath of God and that because the wrath that we deserve has already been poured out on Christ. Scripture also states that we are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath – 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9. Since the seals are apart of the wrath of God, then the church must be removed prior to the 1st seal being opened. All three sets of seven judgments, the seals, trumpets and bowls, are how God is going to carry out his wrath.

                  Second point: There is nothing in the context related to the 6th seal, either before or after, that says anything regarding believers being gathered. There are some who attempt to make Mt.24:29-31 synonymous with the 6th seal because of the reference to the sun, moon and stars. But the fact is that, though they seem to be the same event, they are in fact two separate events. Mt.24:29-31 is not the gathering of the church, but is referring to the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. When the angels are sent out, they will be gathering living people in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through that entire last seven years. Mt.24:29-31 is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 regarding the gathering of the weeds and wheat. They are living people who are being gathered. It is not a resurrection.

                  Third point: Regarding that “great multitude which no man can count” the elder asks John who they are and he doesn’t know. John was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches. The very fact that the elder is asking John who this other group is demonstrates that they are not the church. If you will notice, only the word “Ekklesia” translated as “church” is used from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3. Also in those same chapters you will not find the word “Hagios” translated as “saints.” In opposition, from Rev. 4 onward the word ekklesia/church is never used, but only the word hagios/saints is used. Those saints who come out of the great tribulation are not the church, but are those who will have become believers after the church has been removed from the earth prior to that first seal being opened.

                  The world has yet to see the severity and magnitude of what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to inflict upon this earth. But scripture states that the inhabitants of the earth will know that it is God who is responsible for them, as is demonstrated below:

                  ====================================

                  “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.”

                  “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.”

                  “Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

                  ====================================

                  It is important to understand the reason why believers will not and cannot go through the wrath of the God. The most important would be because, scripture states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that because He already took God’s wrath upon himself on behalf of all believers. Therefore, for God to send his church through his wrath would be disrespecting Jesus who already bore God’s wrath for us. And since the entire earth is going to be affected by these plagues of wrath, the church must be removed.

                  Furthermore, scripture states that this coming wrath is going to be directed to the following types of people:

                  ===================================
                  “The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.”

                  “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.”

                  ==================================

                  Regarding the above, true believers in Christ have already repented of their sins and there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The true believer is always in a state of repentance and is wrestling with the sinful nature to keep his/her body under control. On the other hand, unbelievers are running head-long into destruction, for they embrace the sinful nature. The Lord is going to remove his church, his bride, from the earth and then he is going to pour out his wrath upon those listed above.

                  I truly hope that his gives some understanding. The world has yet to see the affects of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The very fact that there is a controversy as to whether or not they have begun is proof in itself that the 1st seal has not yet been opened. And that because, just as the Lord’s return to the earth will be unmistakable, so also will it be unmistakable when God’s wrath begins.

                  • seals 1-6 is tribulation acc to matt 24

                    trumpets and vials are wrath, acc to rev 6

                  • But what are we saying is the wrath of God? His wrath is announced at the 7th seal. Prior to that, wrath isn’t mentioned. It seams like there’s a tribulation period (wars & famine which we see even now). Then the saints are raptured (washed their robes, wipe every tear…mirrors what Christ said of believers). Then the wrath begins. What if the referenced tribulation is not the whole Book of Revelation but only the first 6 seals, followed by the wrath?

                    • Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
                      Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
                      The wrath begins at the Seventh Seal and is tied to the earthquake of Revelation 8:5 and the Trumpet Judgements, and Bowl judgments but Christians who believe in pre-trib such as dmcal52 believe the seals are also the wrath of God.
                      There is no mention of the word wrath in Chapters 1-6 until you get to the 7tth seal.

                    • jardalkal
                      I used to believe in a mid tribulation myself until I started studying Revelation. Now I see it as post tribulation with the tribulation being only the first 6 seals then, as you said, the wrath beginning with the 7th and the earthquake. I wonder if the big quake is going to coincide with the rapture, with the saints leaving at the moment the quake hits.

            • I’d like to know which verses bring you to that conclusion of a time line because I’m not seeing how you arrived at this.

        • Dmcal, there are 4.5 bullion people on planet earth right now.

          • “Dmcal, there are 4.5 billion people on planet earth right now.”

            Actually, there are over 7 billion people on planet earth right now. I posted those numbers from the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet to demonstrate the number of fatalities as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The 4.5 billion fatalities doesn’t even include trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the bowls. These plagues of wrath will be in fulfillment of the following:

            “I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth, declares the LORD.” – Zeph.1:1-3

            “I will make mankind scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir” – Isaiah 13:12

            • dmcal.
              I also believe the seals will also be a part of the other judgments.
              2020 food prices up to as much as 345% since 1975 (just a guess). I did not check the year that the index began to increase.

              2) The seals is man’s doing but the Trumpet Judgments, Bowl Judgments and Armageddon is God’s doing.

              I am glad you believe in pre-trib rapture lies and I will not go into that argument.

              According to Isaiah, the Day of the Lord is a one year event and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. So lets begin with all the verses that refers to one day.
              Deut 24:5; John 6:40, 44, 54; Rev 2:10; I Cor 15:52; I Thess 4:16-18; Lev. 23:27-34; Lev 16; Ezek 4:6; Num 14:34.
              Show me in Scripture where your 7 years is mentioned as 7 days of Tribulation and show me in scripture where 7 days = 7 years.

              • Isaiah explains that the Day of the Lord will last for one year (Isaiah 34:8; Isaiah 61:2; Isaiah 63:4). The principle of a day for a year in prophecy also applies to the Day of the Lord (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6). It is the year of the “Lord’s vengeance” or God’s wrath (Revelation 6:17).

                • The day of the Lord, is also referred to as “the hour of trial.” The day of the Lord is neither an hour, a day nor a year in length. It will run parallel throughout the entire seven years. The 5th trumpet alone lasts for 5 months. The time of Jacob’s trouble is specifically from the middle of that seven years when the abomination is set up. This is what will cause the desolation of Jerusalem/Judea where the woman/Israel will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years out in the desert. During that same seven years, God will be dealing with the rest of the world as depicted in Dan.2:31-45, which the Rock (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue smashing the entire statue into pieces, like chaff on the threshing floor and blown away by the wind, never to be found again (the end of human government).

                  It is not a coincidence that God’s wrath is seven years in length, for seven is God’s number of completion. one year is not.

                • Good points!

                  Bottom line: Those that teach “7 years of Triblation and 3. 5 years of ‘Great Tribulatiion’ point to Daniel 9, twisting every verse and phrase. They do the same to Chaper 8 and 12 and wherever.

                  Chapter 9 is about the Messiah.

                  The Messiah of Israel wasn’t known to Daniel when Daniel prayed for his people. Daniel was given insight to the coming Messiah and future of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

                  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209&version=HCSB;KJV;NASB

                  What? The angel is telling Daniel about an Anti-Messiah before the Messiah comes? How ridicules!

                  Yeshua ends the daily sacrifice (Hebrews 7:25-28), confirmed peace with many (John 14:26-28) and His ministry was cut short, lasting 3.5 years as we read between John chapter 2 through chapter 20.

                  Do they not realize that His ministry is to be 7 years? It was cut short. He has 3.5 years remaining and the last day is a Sabbath rest.

                  Yeshua the Messiah read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping in mid sentence.

                  Humm? The Messiah must have cut off His reading of that last portion of Isaiah 61:2-3 for a reason. Pun intended.

                  Do they not know that He must reign until He puts His enemies under His feet?

                  https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=HCSB%3BKJV%3BNASB&quicksearch=Enemies&begin=53&end=53

                  They (Isalm) set up the abomination upon the Holy Mountain, which brought desolation to Jerusalem for the exact number of years told to Daniel. It truely was sealed up until this generation. The Fig Tree Generation (Matthew 24).

                  Don’t they know that the Jews traded the Temple Mount, which they held after the 6 Day War for lasting peace with their Islamic enemies?

              • Hello jardalkat,

                You said:

                ” The seals is man’s doing but the Trumpet Judgments, Bowl Judgments and Armageddon is God’s doing. ”

                I would have to disagree with you, as would scripture. The seals, as well as the trumpets and bowls are all apart of God’s wrath. It is important to understand that it is Jesus who is breaking the seals and therefore, He is the One who is responsible for initiating these events. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments should not be sliced up with one part being man’s or Satan’s wrath and the other parts being God’s wrath. This is a false teaching that has crept into the word of God, via web-sites, seminars, books, you tube, etc.. The results of the seals, trumpets and bowls are all God’s doing, not man’s or Satan’s. While it is true that the antirchist will be initiating that last seven years, it is because it is all apart of God’s fulfillment of that last seven years of seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. – Dan.9:24-27

                You said:
                “I am glad you believe in pre-trib rapture lies and I will not go into that argument.”

                Paul, in writing to Titus and the Thessalonians regarding the Lord’s appearing to gather his church, said the following:

                “while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, ”

                “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

                Regarding the above, if the church were to go through God’s wrath, it there would be no blessed hope and there would be no reason to comfort other believers if we were to be put through God’s wrath. What comfort would there be in that? What do you think is more comforting, to say that the Lord is going gather believers before his wrath or after? It is not more of a lie for Satan to say that the Lord is not going to gather his church before he pours out his wrath?

                For the sake of the argument, if the church were left here on earth to through God’s wrath, I along with other believers would recognize the antichrist as soon as he established his seven year covenant with Israel. At that point, I as well as the rest of true believers would simply begin to pray and ask God to help us through that time period. But I am confident from scripture that the Lord is not going to build his church and then put it through his wrath. Those who do believe this are not trusting in the Lord’s promise to keep us OUT OF that hour of testing that will come upon the entire world. Those who believe that God would put his church through his wrath are also not trusting that Christ already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve.

                Blessings in Christ

                • 1947 was when the proclamation went out for Israel to become a nation plus 62 shavuots=2009 +7 years =5777 or 2016-2017 Year of Jubilee.
                  1967+50 years =2017/5777; Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 5777; Abraham’s birth 1947 BCE +2017 years = 70 CE (Matt 24:1-2) +1947 years = 5777. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 10th Jubilee = 5777. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 50, 80, 100, and 120 years lines up to significant events with Israel. There are over 20 events pointing to the year of 5777 being the year of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
                  If 2017 is the end year, then the Day of the Lord can begin this week.
                  You teach that there is 7 more years to go in some future timeframe but the peak of the triangle is in the year of 5777. After the year of 5777, you have the law of diminishing returns hit.
                  By the year 2024, 2/3rds of humanity on planet earth will be gone and they may possibly be gone within the next 6 months.
                  Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com and Jardalkalataol.blogspot.com.

                  If the covenants are stacked vertically then the seals, trumpet judgments and bowl judgments can also be stacked vertically. Also Abib and Tishrei are also stacked vertically.

        • Hi dmcal52,

          I hope that you won’t be offended if I express an alternative point of view.

          Above you say,
          “The announcement “The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it” includes the seals that will have taken place prior to this announcement. What I find that throws people off on their understanding of this, is that they think that the wrath only includes what follows the announcement, which is false thinking. The announcement could be better understood as “The great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.””

          The first thing that I’d like to address is your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”.
          “Who’s” wrath is this?
          Isn’t it God The Fathers wrath?

          Therefore in context, Revelation 6:17. begins with “The great day of HIS wrath”.

          Secondly, in respects to the “has come” above, which you clearly suggest that its meaning is meant to imply “past tense” or that what has occurred previously, (what was written regarding the Seals), is a continuation and also a portion of, “Gods wrath”.

          Let’s look at that translation briefly.
          Within the “Textus Receptus” the “has/is come” was derived from the Greek primary verb “ἔρχομαι” or “erchomai”, which is defined as, “to come, to come into being, come forth, show itself, be established.”

          The “has/is come” above within the original Greek Morphological Text is derived from the Greek primary verb “ἦλθεν” or “ēlthen”, which its definition, “to come” would also suggest “commencement”, rather than “continuation”.

          Therefore, don’t the Seals consist of something other than “God the Fathers wrath” and “righteous judgment”?
          Aren’t they what is stated previously by Jesus as to what is going to occur next?
          i.e., Revelation 3:10. the “trial” (peirasmos) to “test” (peirazō) the whole world.?

          Anti-Christ will be present.
          For just two examples of many,
          God The Father allowed for Satan to “try and test” Job.
          God The Father allowed for Satan to “try and test” Jesus.
          Neither instance consisted of God The Fathers wrath.
          God The Father will allow for Satan to “try and test” the whole world.

          Revelation 3:10.;
          “I also will keep thee from the hour of TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to TRY them that dwell upon the earth.”

          “TEMPTATION” from the Greek masculine noun “πειρασμοῦ”, transliterated as “peirasmos”, defined primarily as “an experiment, attempt, trial, proving” and in context specifically “adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness.”

          “TRY” from the Greek verb “πειράσαι”, transliterated as “peirazō”, defined in context as “to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quality, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself” and “of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith.”

          Revelation 3:19.;
          “As many as I love I REBUKE and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

          “REBUKE” from the Greek verb “ἐλέγχω” transliterated as “elegchō”, defined in context, “to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted, to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove, to chasten, to punish”.

          “CHASTEN” from the Greek verb “παιδεύω” transliterated as “paideuō”, defined in context as “to train children, discipline, chastise, of a father punishing his son.”

          Isn’t the above “TEMPTATION, TRY, REBUKE and CHASTEN” all describing the same thing, and aren’t they clearly distinct and separate from “Gods wrath”?

          Gods wrath is “righteous judgement” and when it “commences” wouldn’t it be too late to repent, as Jesus tells those of the church of Laodicea to do?

          Any way’s no offence, but in my opinion, (and from what I have provided above), I don’t believe that you have sufficient evidence which would verify that the Seals are one and the same as, “Gods Wrath”.

          • Hi dmcal52,

            In addition to the above,

            1) We have “JESUS” saying in Revelation 3:10., that He will keep those of the church of Philadelphia from the “hour” of “Temptation”.

            The English “hour” from the Greek feminine noun “ὥρας”, or “hṓra”, which by its definitions, could have simply been rendered as “time”.
            Thus, “JESUS” will keep this church from the “time of TRIAL AND TESTING”.

            2) In Revelation 3:14-19., we have “JESUS” chastising the church of Laodicea, and saying that, because they are neither hot or cold, HE is going to spit them out, and that they will be subjected to the “time of TRIAL and TESTING”.
            In Revelation 3:19., JESUS says that HE will REBUKE and CHASTEN them, which during what comes next, they will then have the opportunity to repent.

            (I have provided the Greek and the definitions of TRIAL, TESTING, REBUKE and TESTING previously for your convenience.)

            3) Germaine to the above, in Revelation 5:5-7., we have JESUS, (the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the slain Lamb), being worthy to take the scroll with the SEALS from God the Fathers right hand.

            4) In Revelation 6:1., we see that JESUS (the Lamb) opens the first SEAL.
            In 6:3., 6:5., 6:7., 6:9., we have JESUS opening the second, third, forth and fifth SEALS respectively.

            5) In Revelation 6:12., when JESUS opens the sixth SEAL, something very significant happens, “the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon becomes as blood.”

            What does Joel 2:31. say?
            “The sun SHALL BE TURNED into darkness, and the moon into blood, “BEFORE” the great and the terrible day of the LORD COME.”

            The English “BEFORE” being derived from the Hebrew masculine noun “פָּנִים” or “paniym”, which being defined in context, is “BEFORE”.

            Just to substantiate the above, we have the Greek.
            Acts 2:20.
            “The sun SHALL BE TURNED into darkness, and the moon into blood, “BEFORE” that great and notable day of the Lord COME:”

            Again, the English “BEFORE”, is derived from the Greek adverb “πρὶν” or “prin”, which is also defined as “BEFORE”.

            Then in Revelation 6:16. we have written, “the wrath of the Lamb”, which is the CHASTENING by JESUS, that He said He would perform previously.

            Then in Revelation 8:1., we have JESUS opening the seventh and last SEAL.
            SEVEN denotes completion of a set.
            Seven CHURCHES, CANDLE STICKS, STARS, ANGELS, SPIRITS OF GOD, LAMPS, HORNS, EYES, SEALS, TRUMPETS, THUNDERS, BOWLS, etc. etc.

            And it is then with the TRUMPETS, that God the Fathers WRATH commences, and continues, since the sun has now been turned into darkness, and the moon has now been turned into blood.

            Logically, “IF” the “sun is to be turned to darkness, (becomes black as sackcloth of hair), and the moon like blood” BEFORE the “Day Of The Lord” COMES, then everything that happens previously, prior to to this event occurring, is NOT equitable to the “Day Of The Lord”.

            Therefore as per what is recorded within scripture, the SEALS one through seven are NOT the “Day Of The Lord” or Gods wrath and righteous judgment.

          • Hello GM,

            You said:
            “Secondly, in respects to the “has come” above, which you clearly suggest that its meaning is meant to imply “past tense” or that what has occurred previously, (what was written regarding the Seals), is a continuation and also a portion of, “Gods wrath”.

            Let’s look at that translation briefly.
            Within the “Textus Receptus” the “has/is come” was derived from the Greek primary verb “ἔρχομαι” or “erchomai”, which is defined as, “to come, to come into being, come forth, show itself, be established.”

            Regarding erchomai “has come” it is in the Aorist tense, which means:

            “a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, “past action,” without further limitation or implication.

            In other words, “the great day of their wrath has come” includes the events that had previously taken place. The announcement includes what will have already taken place, as well as everything that follows the announcement.

            But regardless of words, I am looking at the whole context. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of plagues of wrath, which God is going to use to fulfill the prophesies of the OT saints and the apostles. They are not meant to be sliced up so that seals 1 thru 5 are to be considered as Satan’s or man’s wrath, with the trumpets and bowls being God’s wrath.

            The fact is that, the Lamb/Jesus is the one who is opening the seals and He is the One who treads the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty. That said, the result of the 4th trumpet being a fourth of the earths population being killed and based on a population of 7 billion, would equal 1.7 billion fatalities in the early part of that last seven years. The Lord is the One opening the seals and is therefore the One who is responsible for the resulting deaths.

            • Hi dmcal52,

              First, Thank You for taking the time to respond.
              Second, I would like to apologize for how poorly I constructed my above comments to you, and for the obvious confusion that they created.

              I realize now how difficult it can be to convey a “line of reasoning” using this particular format, and how I assumed that you would have no difficulty in following that thought process, simply because I knew what I was trying to say. (Definitely my bad.)

              I can clearly see now, that I sabotaged myself and that “line of reasoning”, by “how” I initially addressed your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”, and it would have made it extremely difficult for you to follow. Again I apologize.

              Though the above definitions for the words “TEMPTATION (or TESTING), TRIAL, REBUKE and CHASTEN”, and much of my 2nd. comment would still be applicable, if I could delete both of my previous posts, and start again, I would.
              But unfortunately that’s not possible.

              So I ask that you please be gracious enough, to allow me the opportunity to try again, and start all over.

              Let me first start by stating that “I fully AGREE with you” that in this instance, (Revelation 6:17.), the transliterated Greek verb “erchomai”, is in the “Aorist Tense”, a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, “past action,” without further limitation or implication.

              I agree that “erchomai” here is rendered in the “Second Aorist Tense, Active Voice, Indicative Mood”.
              This would be indicated by the (εν) of the Greek Morphological text of “ἦλθεν”.

              Now above I had stated, “that I sabotaged myself and that “line of reasoning”, by “how” I initially addressed your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”.
              I clearly made the mistake by jumping ahead to “God’s Wrath”, before making the necessary distinction between “IT” and the “Wrath of Jesus”.

              What does Revelation 6:16. say?
              “And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the “WRATH of the LAMB”: (JESUS)”
              6:17.;
              “For the great day of HIS (JESUS) WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

              What is “WRATH”?
              In both instances above the English was derived from the Greek feminine noun “ὀργῆς” or “orgē”, which is primarily defined as, “anger, the natural disposition, temper, character”.

              Man can experience this “WRATH”, from the K.J.V. see Mark 3:5. and “anger”, Romans 12:19., and “wrath”, Ephesians 4:31. and “anger” etc., etc..

              “Wrath” is also “revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” and God the Fathers “Righteous Judgment” upon the “children of disobedience”, from the K.J.V. see Romans 1:18., Romans 2:5., Ephesians 5:6. etc., etc..

              And within Revelation 3:14-19. where Jesus is chastising the CHURCH of Laodicea, (individuals that He says that He still loves, though He utilizes “phileō”, rather than “agapaō, agapē or agapētos” here), HE (JESUS) was definitely expressing “disappointment and anger”.

              So, in my opinion, I still see some problems with your understanding that the SEALS are in actuality “God the Fathers WRATH of Righteous Judgment”.

              I hope that I convey what I am trying to express, clearer than my previous attempt for you.

              Now the “TRY” or TRIAL, (πειράσαι, (αι) or peirazō) that is expressed within Revelation 3:10., is also rendered in the “Aorist Tense, Active Voice, (meaning that JESUS is the doer) and in the Infinitive Mood”, but we also know that “hōra”, (being translated as “hour”) is expressing a specific time frame, which will consist of a “beginning and end”, and that the Book of Revelation is “Prophecy”, (Rev. 1:3., 22:7.,10., 18,19.).

              So with that, I would hope that you’d agree, that this specific time frame that is expressed above, (though being recorded in the “Aorist Tense”), has not yet come to fruition.
              Speaking for myself, I am more than aware that I am tested on a daily basis, and have not been “kept” from anything that resembles what the individuals from the Church of Philadelphia will experience.

              In Revelation 3:19., Jesus says; “As many as I love, “I REBUKE and CHASTEN”: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

              Though both REBUKE and CHASTEN are rendered in the Present Tense, Active Voice and Indicative Mood, again, one must also remember that this is “Prophecy”, and like that “time frame” allocated for the “TEMPTATION and TRIAL” above in Revelation 3:10., this has also not yet come to fruition.

              Now here’s were all of this becomes quite tricky, and whether you agree or not, I hope I can at least articulate my point of view.
              It will all be much easier if you happen to hold to the belief that Revelation 4:1. is signifying what is commonly referred to as being the “Rapture”.

              Currently, all of us that have faith and belief in Jesus are subjected to “temptation” regarding that faith.
              But as stated above, a “allocated time” will come into being, where some individuals of the Church, (Philadelphia) will be “kept from” a “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, and others (Laodicea) will not be.

              Now if Jesus says that He will REBUKE and CHASTEN the members of the Church of Laodicea, was that just an idle threat, or does He mean what He says?
              And if you believe that He indeed means what He says, and will no doubt REBUKE and CHASTEN the Church of Laodicea, then where is that recorded?

              If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, and the individuals of the Church of Philadelphia are to be “kept or spared” from this “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, then wouldn’t the individuals that partake in this rapture, be those of the Church of Philadelphia?
              Wouldn’t this then also fulfill the scripture of Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9.?

              What I am suggesting above is the “duality of meaning” which has been utilized throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
              Those of the Church of Philadelphia that have been presented with an “open door” because they have “kept the word of HIS patience”, will also be, (having proven themselves) “kept” from the Wrath (REBUKE and CHASTENING) of Jesus, (or the SEALS).

              Now, if that is the case, then we would have another “duality of meaning regarding wrath” that would also be fulfilled.

              If by what is recorded within Revelation 7:9-13. consists of a second rapture event, encompassing those that were subjected to the “ Temptation, Trial, Rebuking and Chastising” of the remaining members of the Church of Laodicea, and also those individuals of the world that experienced that event, and came to have faith and belief in Jesus, then Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9. would also be fulfilled in respects to “God the Fathers Wrath”.

              Each and every true Believer in Jesus would now be off of the earth, allowing for a Righteous God to justly execute His judgment, which begins with the “Trumpets”.

              Also, this proposal doesn’t contradict Joel 2:31., or Acts 2:20., where your proposal of the SEALS being a portion of “God the Fathers Wrath” does.
              And it is my opinion, that if a contradiction to scripture presents itself, then the “thought or proposal” is inaccurate.

              Thank you for your patience, and I hope that I’ve articulated what I was trying to express previously with more clarity.
              God Bless.

              • Good day Gm,

                You said:
                “Currently, all of us that have faith and belief in Jesus are subjected to “temptation” regarding that faith. But as stated above, a “allocated time” will come into being, where some individuals of the Church, (Philadelphia) will be “kept from” a “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, and others (Laodicea) will not be.”

                Forgive me, if I am understanding you correctly, I believe that you mistaken in your understanding regarding the letters to the churches. Though these were letters to each specific church, the information contained within them is for every believer and all churches throughout the entire church period. For at the end of each of the letters it says, “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

                For example, the promise of Jesus giving the overcomer a white stone with a new name written on it found in the letter to the church of Pergamum, is also a promise to the other six types of churches and every overcoming believer throughout the entire church period. All of the promises to the overcomer can be applied to every believer throughout the entire church period. That said, the promise to those who endure patiently to keep them out of the hour of trial, is not only to the overcomers of the church of Philadelphia, but to all believers throughout the entire church period who endure patiently.

                Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial. Any believer who belonged to the actual church of Laodicea, as well as believers throughout the entire church period that fit that church type and who overcome, will also be kept from that hour of trial. Those letters to the seven churches are also to all churches and individual believers throughout the entire church period.

                Likewise, whatever the promise is for the overcomer, it is the opposite for those who do not overcome. Example: He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death vs. He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. The bottom line is that, any believer who is an overcomer, regardless of church type, will receive the promises given to each church.

                I’m going to address each of the issues in your post in a separate post and that for the sake of ease of reading.

                (Continued)

              • (Continued #2)

                GM said:
                “If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, and the individuals of the Church of Philadelphia are to be “kept or spared” from this “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, then wouldn’t the individuals that partake in this rapture, be those of the Church of Philadelphia? Wouldn’t this then also fulfill the scripture of Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9.?

                Again, you are pigeonholing the promises and restricting them to a type of church. As I stated in part #1, all of the promises given to the overcomer, regardless of the church, will receive the promises given by the Lord. For example: Any believer throughout the entire church period who was previously guilty of forsaking their first love, if they repented and overcame that, then they will receive the promises given to the other churches as well.

                Every believer who overcomes, will be gathered when the Lord comes for the church. Those who do not overcome would be likened to the five virgins who had no extra oil, which is symbolic for watchful readiness. If your not overcoming, then you would be continuing to live according to the sinful nature.

                Any believer who has gone back into willfully living according to the sinful nature would not be in a right standing with the Lord and will not be gathered when the Lord appears. Everyone not gathered (raputred) when the Lord appears, will be caught in the period of God’s wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The Thessalonians understood Paul’s teaching on this in that, there were those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, which is what prompted them to write Paul about it. Since some were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and they knew that the living believers would immediately be changed and caught up with the resurrected, their concern was that if it was true that the resurrection had already taken place, then why were they still here. Their concern was also that after the gathering of the church, that the wrath of God was to follow. And of course Paul eases their fears, letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place.

                Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10 & 5:9 applies only to those who are true believers and are watching and anticipating the Lord’s appearing. Everyone else who is living according to the sinful nature, whether believer or unbeliever, will be caught in that time of wrath, known as the day of the Lord and the hour of trial.

                (Continued)

              • (Continued – part #3)

                GM said:
                “If by what is recorded within Revelation 7:9-13. consists of a second rapture event, encompassing those that were subjected to the “ Temptation, Trial, Rebuking and Chastising” of the remaining members of the Church of Laodicea, and also those individuals of the world that experienced that event, and came to have faith and belief in Jesus, then Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9. would also be fulfilled in respects to “God the Fathers Wrath”.

                Revelation 7:9-13 is a vision of the great tribulation saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which Jesus identified as that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, which begins at the setting up of the abomination – Matt.24:15-21. That said, this could not be representing a “second rapture event” because the chronological order of Revelation, the great tribulation will have not yet begun. John is simply seeing a vision of those who will have died keeping their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark – Rev.7:9-17, 20:6-8.

                The great tribulation saints are not represented by the church of Laodicea, but every person caught in that time period of God’s wrath who keeps their testimony of Christ and the word of God and is willing to give their lives maintaining that testimony.

              • (Continued – #4)

                GM said:
                “Each and every true Believer in Jesus would now be off of the earth, allowing for a Righteous God to justly execute His judgment, which begins with the “Trumpets”.

                As I have made clear, I believe that the three sets of seven judgments are all representing God’s wrath. And that the announcement of wrath includes what previously will have take place, which would be the previous seals. I believe that since the Lamb is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, that they should not be divided up, but are all representing God’s wrath. As I posted previously, just with the 4th seal along there will be 1.7 billion fatalities and Jesus is the One who will have opened the seals. It’s not a matter of the meaning of words here, but the format.

                I believe that the church will be gathered before that 1st seal has been opened.

                • Hi dmcal52,
                  Wow, with each post that is made, the space allocated for that post becomes so much narrower, so I’ll respond at the very bottom of the page.

  7. Re what happens with the fourth seal in terms of historic fact (needs checking out of course) the conquistadors who overran particularly South America are said to have killed at least a quarter of the population of the world by sword and by smallpox which they alledgedly carried there with them.
    v8 “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

    • Hello stephendgeen,

      The truth is that, the 1st seal has not yet been opened and therefore, neither have any of the other seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which follow. These three sets of seven judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants on the earth. These are events which will happen in the very last days leading up to Christ’s return to end the age, which will be shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. As I told Marianne, these events are meant to decimate the population of the earth in a short period time, not over a period of 2000 years. When these plagues of wrath begin to take place they will continue to increase in frequency and in severity within that last seven years.

      The world has no idea of the destruction that is coming and unfortunately, neither do many Christian’s. This coming wrath will be unprecedented and are not events that can be assigned to past historical events. They will be devastation on a scale that the world has not yet seen.

  8. I agree that things will get worse. The different seals, Trumpets and bowls are each themselves worse than those before. But there are some finite events.

    For instance in Revelation 9:
    1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

    The key words are the specific time limit “5 months”, and “during those days” suggests an end to that plague as well.

    Each occurrence is designed to cause men to repent, and each are worse than the last, as with those of Egypt for each refusal to let the Israelites go. These events somewhat mirror those of Egypt but on a much larger scale.

    God gives every available chance, culminating in Chapter 16 where men still will not repent, just before it is announced that it is finished.

  9. Both the Man of Lawlessness and the 666 spreading Beasts are going to be defeated by Christ so they must be going to still be around when He comes. That eliminates historic people. But types of these people have abounded. The types of the Beasts are seen in Empires like Rome and Byzantium. The 666 is seen in Nazis and the Holocaust and earlier in the history of Europe around the Middle Ages. The Man of Lawnessness type is seen in leaders of huge rebellions. The type of the ten heads of the first Beast ruling beside the Beast are seen in monarchies of Europe ruling beside the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. The type of 666 punishment is seen in use of mass surveillance to minitor potential enemies by what they do or do not do, their profiles, and transponders and numbering systems applied to humans and technology for tracking and killing. The Enoch 89 prophecy types are seen in drones and air bombardments. It must be it will all come to a head as the Time draws near.

    • Hello again stephendgreen,

      The 666 (mark of the beast) is still future. Scripture states that “unless anyone had the mark they would not be able to buy or sell.” To put it into perspective for our time, buying and selling is crediting and debiting. The system for electronic crediting and debiting has been set up for many years now. Currently, people are crediting and debiting via the swiping of bank cards and bank apps on cells phones, etc. That mark that will go in either the hand or the forehead, will eventually replace card swiping and bank apps, as well as cash and checks being made obsolete, leaving only that mark as a way of electronically crediting and debiting ones bank account.

      Everything is now in place, all that has to take place is for the revealing of that antichrrst and the initiation of that mark, which will take place in the middle of the seven years. Regarding the mark, they have already developed this technology and is already in use. Currently, people in Sweden and other places are being implanted with RFID chips, which will continue to evolve leading up to the emergence of that antichrist.

      If you click on the BBC link below, you can see the technology for that coming mark which has already come about, which demonstrates that it will be a literal mark.

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

  10. I see quite a few replies on the seals, trumpets and bowls and on the wrath and rapture. I’m not scholar by any means, yet I’ve been studying Revelation for some time, and through all Scripture referencing this period, I see the rapture happening in conjunction with the opening of the sixth seal and a breakdown of two periods.

    In Revelation 6 we see the great earthquake. In verses 17 It states: For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Directly after this in Chapter 7 there is the great multitude that came out of the tribulation. I see the tribulation as seals 1-5, the rapture as seal 6 And the beginning of the trumpets as the wrath.

    If there is more that I’m not seeing here, does someone have any Scripture references that show more?

  11. Good analysis about the likely mechanism of 666. I agree. RFID is based on transponder technology. I met the inventors. Transponders were to distinguish friendly aircraft in WW2 so that if an aircraft did not have a transponder it was taken to be an enemy plane which showed up as enemy on a radar display. If you don’t have the mark they will assume us to be enemies. They will shoot us down in some way because we will show up on surveillance without the ‘mark’. Look at other numbering systems too, computerised ones. I saw recently the pre-computer system developed by IBM was sold to Nazi Germany and used for their number tatooing system in the Holocaust. Punch cards were used then. All computers internally still use the modern equivalents of those punch cards. Look to at the link between numbering comodities and the Roman Empire. They started what today we call the ISIN system. They were the first manifestation of The Beast. It is still the power behind Europe via the Prince Electors. They will resume power to empower this new 666 system but Revelation links it most to the Second Beast and the image of the First Beast. Either way both beasts (Empires or Monarchy systems) will be defeated by Christ at His coming but NOT before many believers are killed by the system. They will be among those who are resurrected and reign with Christ Jesus 1000 years. The end of 1000 years will be the terrible war but it won’t last long as God will come Himself and evaporate the oceans and burn up the atmosphere and wipe out the living who are not resurrected then bring them back for judgment. Amen Come Lord Jesus.

  12. Hello Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “1947 was when the proclamation went out for Israel to become a nation plus 62 shavuots=2009 +7 years =5777 or 2016-2017 Year of Jubilee.
    1967+50 years =2017/5777; Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 5777; Abraham’s birth 1947 BCE +2017 years = 70 CE (Matt 24:1-2) +1947 years = 5777. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 10th Jubilee = 5777. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 50, 80, 100, and 120 years lines up to significant events with Israel. There are over 20 events pointing to the year of 5777 being the year of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”

    There is no way to mathematically figure out when the Lord is going to return to the earth. The only way anyone can know who is here during that time is by following along with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because scripture makes clear that Jesus does not return until after the 7th bowl is poured out. Also, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not staggered or stacked, but will take place in chronological order, just as they appear in scripture:

    Seals 1 thru 7 followed by

    Trumpets 1 thru 7, followed by

    Bowls 1 thru 7, followed by the Lord’s return to end the age.

    To be clear, the gathering of the church is a separate event from the event of the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. The gathering of the church can take place at any time prior to the 1st seal being opened and in fact is what initiates the day of the Lord. Where the second coming, is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which takes place shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

    What are you going to do or say when the second coming doesn’t take place in 2017? You know how many people have attempted to pinpoint the time of the Lord’s return and have failed? The next event to take place is the gathering of the church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist when he establishes his seven year covenant with Israel. Once that takes place, then the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom some time shortly after the 7th bowl judgment.

    • Dear Scoffer,
      Sabbath Years to 4001 BC 3932/3939/3946/3953/3960/3967/3974/3981/3988/3994/4001
      0 3925 Creation Note: Torahcalendar uses 3986, others use 3983 (3983-6000=2017), 3999, 3980, 3954, 4001*, 4004, 4100, 4126, 3926, 5315, 3760 (Sedar Olam) and about one dozen others. Sept 22, 4000 BC (Monday). 26.8 % of Scripture is prophecy; 1817 prophecies; 8353 verses.

      And man shall live 120 years (Gen 6:3). Years mean Jubilees. According to 4001 BCE, the earth is 6030 years old.
      3983 BCE-6000 years = 2017/5777.

      Note: We now have two Jubilee counts going. In the end these two are 3 years apart (2017, 2020).

      2478 1428, 1258 1414,1572 BCE Abib אביב‎ 10 Jubilee count begins for walkinthelight.ca/timeline.htm Joshua (‘Yahovah saves’ ) leads Israel into “the promised land” Joshua 3:17 “And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of יהוה stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan,” Joshua 4:1
      “children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.” Joshua 5:10,12.
      This is the 70th Jubilee prophecy above.

  13. The opening of these 7 Seals is a process. They open in order, revealing a particular message within.

    Back to Rev. 1:1, “This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that He could show His servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending His angel to his servant John.”

    His servants know.

    Who are His servants?

    See John 2:1-10, because they know what He’s doing.

    Did you know Yeshua told His servants the length of time the seals would open?

    The answe is within the revelation given.

    He did tell His servants just as we read in Rev. 1:1.

    It’s not 7 years.

    The rider of the white horse came out in 2007, announcing his run for the White House. He continues riding his white horse unitl the appointed time

    Blessings

    • DJ,

      You said:
      “The rider of the white horse came out in 2007, announcing his run for the White House. He continues riding his white horse unitl the appointed time”

      The above is false! Your claim is just misapllied by you without any scripture to support your claim. The rider on the white horse at the opening of the 1st seal represents the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant with Israel and most likely Islam, which will allow Israel to build her temple and once again to begin presenting sacrifices and offerings.

      Once the church has been completed, the Lord will gather believers, taking them back to the Father’s house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 and God will pick up where he left off, fulfilling that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

      • book of daniel says there is a covenant, but it just says “with many,” and does not mention Israel….Israel may be the topic, but it does not say Israel is in agreement with the covenant

      • Dmcal52
        Antichrist forerunners are: 1) Obama (King of the South–For Islam and Islamic); 2) Putin (King of the North–Against Islam); 3) Prince William–Most say no way. 4) Erdogan– Islamic
        Why Obama?
        1) 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles–Norweigian Peace Medallion (Covenant of Many–Daniel 9:25-27) 1947–Proclamation of Israel +62 Shavuots = 2009. The math fits. Peace with many is important here. Also this was an “offering” to Obama. (Event #1)
        2) 1260 days later March 22-25 (Passover; Matthew 24:15) trip to Israel. Event # 2 Daniel’s Timeline.
        A) Entered Jerusalem on the exact date that Jesus entered Jerusalem. March 21, 2013 was the vernal equinox (a ppagan ritual day) and it lined up with Nisan 10 perfectly. (Event #3
        B) Jesus rode in on a beast. Obama rode in on his beast. (Event #4)
        C) Jesus got palm leaves waved to him and Obama got his palm branches waved to him (Palestinian flags and American flags–Why–Islam rules) (Event# 5).
        “The Beast” (Obama’s Limo) arrived at the “Holy Site” on March 22nd (Friday–Creation of Man) causing all prayer and sacrifice to cease and then Obama stood inside of the Holiest Christian site on Earth as the Palestinians protested because they did not want him there. Covenant of Many again seen here.
        D) Passover lambs were cancelled for killing that year. (Event # 6)
        Every year by ordinance from God and His word there is a Passover sacrifice in Israel to remember the Exodus. This tradition was lost in 70 AD when the Jews were dispersed. It was reinstated in 2008. (Video) This year the Passover Sacrifice was OFFICIALLY cancelled, due to Barack Obama´s visit to Israel. The order came from the Israeli Department of Health. That is all that had to happen. For a man, they stopped their passover sacrifices for this year.
        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166255#.UU7sRzetq95; http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=166560.
        Exodus 12:14 ‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.
        Daniel 11:31… then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

        E) Ice sculpture of Obama (Event # 7)
        F) Obama did not bow to Christ at the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem where King David and King Jesus was born. However, Obama did bow to Muhammad upon entering the Church of Nativity. All who enter by the short door into the church of Nativity bow to Mohammad/Muhammad. (Event# 8)

        Judas, the “son of perdition” (John 17:12) betrayed Jesus to the chief priests two days before Passover. Obama, the “son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:3) betrayed Israel four days before Passover.

        Obama declared as Messiah by Newsweek Cover in 2013.
        His administration showed a graphical “image” of the State of Israel that cut Jerusalem and the Temple Mount out of Israel and placed it back under gentile/Palestinian control (i.e. an abomination). The Dome of the Rock is also an abomination or detestable thing on the Temple Mount.

        Names and references. The term “Antichrist” appears only in I Jn 2:18, 22: 4:3; II Jn 7. If one holds that the Scriptures present a growing unity on this doctrine, and that an eschatological person, the final Antichrist to be indwelt by Satan (Rev 13), is yet to be manifest, he must relate a large number of biblical names and references to him. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willfull king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.

        The Antichrist breaks all of his pledges and destroys his contractual obligations with Israel (Daniel 9:27; I Thess 5:3). Obama is pushing for Palestine to control Israel.

        King of fierce countenance (Dan 8:23). Antichrist will be a cruel ruler, trampling men under foot without fear of God. He is also called the willful king (Daniel 11:36).

        King of Babylon (Isa 14:4) America is seen by some to be Babylon the Great. Obama is King of Babylon between 2009 and 2017.

        Characteristics of the Antichrist
        1. Deceiver ; craftiness, treachery, seducer, a cheat, beguile, deceiver with vain words
        2. Utter horrid blasphemies against the Most High.
        3. Practice great enormities upon the saints through persecution.

        First, there is to be a falling away, a defection, of the Christians, prior to the second coming. This was began when prayer was taken out of the school systems. Now the Bible is seen as lies and the Quran is the Truth to the universe.

  14. @DJ: The word servants does not appear in the Koine Greek. Translators added it because people expect translations of Revelation to be proper complete sentences. They have to add words to make it sentences. The Greek says ‘to tell His’ not ‘to tell His servants’. I was shocked to find this and to find so much of Revelation is in idioms rather than sentences. There are so many words added in translations. The Greek is beautiful in its succinct brevity, so much of the meaning is in the way it is written and the choice of words rather than logical grammar. I recommend an Interlinear (but some have mistakes like Mounce online has Greek equivalent of ‘was and was and will be’ instead of ‘was and is and will be’). Be careful not to rely on words that aren’t there but are added to make sentences. His own – not necessarily His servants (literally simply ‘His’).

    • I look at Strong’s Greek translation for δοῦλος. His servants and servant in Rev. 1:1 as defined by the Greek word doulos (G1401).

      doulos (G1401): a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): – bond (-man), servant.

      The Greek word (G1401) is translated in great detail in the link below.

      http://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm

      The Greek word “servants” in John 2:1-10 has a slightly different meaning. diakonos

      dee-ak’-on-os

      (G1249) “Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare (G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); [now we read an interpretation by the writer of this word definition] specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): – deacon, minister, servant.”

      I’ll keep to my point – His servants know what He’s doing.

      Blessings.

  15. Chargefox

    Wrath of God views
    1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Day of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.
    2) Bowl Judgments, Armageddon Rapture at Passover.
    3) Armageddon Rapture on Day of Trumpet.

    • Chargefox
      Scriptures for Day of Trumpet.
      Leviticus 23:24ff; Zeph 1:15-16–Day of the Lord is a Day of Trumpet and Alarm (Matt 25:1-14); Matt 24:31–Day of Trumpet; I Cor 15:52 __Last Trump (Day of Trumpet); I Thess 4:16-18 (Day of Trumpet); Rev 11:15ff–7th Bowl Judgment (Day of Trumpet); Rev 12:1 (Day of Trumpet- since 1 CE). 12 stars in her head is Leo and this is on Sept. 23rd, 2017.
      Jesus fulfilled the Spring events of Leviticus 23 so the next one is on the Day of Trumpet–Matt 24:31–At the sound of the Trump, Jesus is going to send the four angels to the four corners of the earth to gather His people–The rapture.
      Day of Atonement Lev. 16–Judgment of the Nation (s); Lev 23:27-34; Joel 2:1–Day of the Lord; Joel 2:15-16–Fast; Blowing of the LAST Trumpet; solemn Assembly; Rev 14:20ff–Wheat and Tares; Rev 15–Day of Atonement typology; Rev 16/19–Armageddon.
      Isaiah teaches the Day of the Lord is a one year event and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. According to Joel 2:15, it begins on the Day of Atoement and it ends on the Day of Atonement with Armageddon. According to the Flood, there was a global earthquake (Axial Poleshift) on the Day of Atonement so on that day should be a global earthquake. History repeats itself.
      Leviticus 23 important months are Passover month (Abib/Month 1); Pentecost (Month 3); and Tishrei (7th Biblical Month). What I do is to find or make list of events covering these timeframes. I also have list of events on the 4th day, 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles, and Chanukkah.

      • jardalkal

        Perhaps I can respond at some later point. I’ve gone through some of the Scriptures you’ve given but will take time to study those and the rest of the information you gave.

      • OK Jardalkal, here is my take on this.

        1 Thessalonians 4 calls it the trump of God. Revelation refers to the angel blowing the 7th trumpet.

        The trump of God will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel will be an act of wrath.

        The voice of God is not the sound of a trumpet blown by an ange, but a voice that sounds like a trumpet.

        After the 6th trumpet and before the 7th, Revelation 9:20 says The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues (my comments: rest of, all, those still alive, everyone remaining on earth) still did not repent…

        Now aside from my belief or yours…or those who believe the rapture already took place, God’s plan is His. Perhaps the reason for these various questions is specifically so that we will NOT know the hour. If He wanted us to know when, He would’ve said it will be at the 7th seal or 7th trumpet.

        What He does make clear is that we’re not to be worried with it for He is able and willing make us stand, despite whatever comes our way. It is clear that the plagues are sent for unbelievers. So whether we remain or not, we will be spared His wrath.

        • Hello chargfox,

          You said:
          “OK Jardalkal, here is my take on this.

          1 Thessalonians 4 calls it the trump of God. Revelation refers to the angel blowing the 7th trumpet.”

          The problem with your claim above is that, the only things that the trump of God and the 7th trumpet have in common is the word “trumpet.” Making the trumpet call of God and the 7th trumpet as being synonymous is a recent misconception.

          First all, these are trumpet judgments, the wrath of God and are not blessings, which is what the gathering of the church would be.

          And secondly, there is nothing at all in the context of the 7th trumpet or around it that even hints of the gathering of the church.

          And thirdly, if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through the majority of God’s wrath, i.e. the seals and previous six trumpets.

          To be continued …..

          • DmCal52, As you said the seals are stacked during both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments all the way up to Armageddon.
            According to Isaiah, The Day of the Lord is a one year event covering both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. This gives us 3 possible harvest dates.
            1) Day of Trumpet at the beginning of the Day of the Lord
            2) Passover at the end of the Trumpet Judgments.
            3) Day of Trumpet for the Grape Harvest. Leviticus 23 supports Day of Trumpet 10 days before Day of Atonement.
            The Trumpet Judgments run for 5 months and the Bowl Judgments run for 7 months.

            DmCal 52 Why is it that the 7th Trumpet Judgment is in Rev. 11 and not in Revelation 9.
            Revelation 11:15-17

            When the seventh angel sounds his shofar, then The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah, and Adonai has begun to rule. The active reign of God on earth, the Messianic Kingdom, promised at 1:5-8 and 6:10, now begins to become real. Between these verses and chapter 19 are the various judgments and other events associated with the overthrow of the system of this world and the inauguration of the Messiah’s rulership. This is why essentially the same cry is heard again at 19:6: “Halleluyah! Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, has begun his reign!”
            This tells me that the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments may be stacked as well. This also reminds me of the Feast of Tabernacles which is the Messianic Kingdom.

            This Rev 11–7th Trumpet Judgment is on the Day of Trumpet 10 days prior to Armageddon on the Day of Atonement.

            Revelation 11:18

            This is a midrash on the whole of Psalm 2, contrasting God’s righteous judgment and rage with that of the Goyim, the pagan nations opposed to God and his ways.

            Leviticus 23:24ff Day of Trumpet; Zeph 1:15-16–Day of the Lord is a day of Trumpet and Alarm (shouting; Matt 25:1-14); Matt 24:31 Day of Trumpet; I Cor 15:52 Day of Trumpet; I Thess 4:16-18 Day of Trumpet; Rev 11:15-17 7th Trumpet Judgment Day of Trumpet; Rev 12:1 Day of Trumpet.

            Now, why do you believe DmCal52 that 2550 days is shorter than 365 days.

            Why do you believe there is 6 years of Trumpet Judgments and 1 year of Bowl Judgments or 3.5 years of Trumpet Judgments and 3.5 years of Bowl Judgments when the 10 plagues of the Exodus ws only 5 months long.
            If the Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation, then why for the inconsistency of 7 years of Judgments?

            • Hello,

              You said:
              “When the seventh angel sounds his shofar, then The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah, and Adonai has begun to rule. The active reign of God on earth, the Messianic Kingdom, promised at 1:5-8 and 6:10, now begins to become real. Between these verses and chapter 19 are the various judgments and other events associated with the overthrow of the system of this world and the inauguration of the Messiah’s rulership. This is why essentially the same cry is heard again at 19:6: “Halleluyah! Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, has begun his reign!”

              Jesus does not begin to rule at that announcement after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. We have a similar announcement in Rev.12:10-12 after Satan and his angels have been cast to the earth. Yet, scripture reveals that there are seven bowl judgments left to be fulfilled before Jesus physically returns to the earth. And we know this to be true because, after the 6th bowl has been poured out, Jesus interjects the following within the narrative:

              “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

              That the Lord is interjecting the above after the 6th bowl has been poured out, would demonstrate that he will have not yet returned to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out. And his return to the earth to end the age is recorded in detail in Rev.19:11-21.

              You said:
              “DmCal52, As you said the seals are stacked during both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments all the way up to Armageddon”

              I never said that the seals, trumpets and bowls are stacked, but they take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation. The reason I say this is because, expositors proclaim that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are stacked so that they are running parallel. There are some who also distort the scriptures by saying that neither the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments have to take place in the order that they are listed. But in fact, they do take place in the order that they are listed, which is why they are numbered as 1 thru 7.

              • DMcal52
                You say seal 1 has not been opened because the Antichrist has not been revealed.

                OBAMA PROCLAIMS – I AM The ANTICHRIST – The ISLAMIC MAHDI …

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIvJDIOqto

                This is the official white house tweet where the White house tweets a Picture of Barack Obama having the AntiChrist, or the Islamic Mahdi…

                The Bible Code Definitively Proves Obama Is The Antichrist …

                http://www.rightwingwatch.org/…definitively-proves-obama-is-the-antichrist

                Wiles: So either Barack Obama is the Man of Sin, commonly known as the Antichrist, the Bible doesn’t say ‘Antichrist’ it says ‘Man of Sin.’

                Why So Many People Think Obama Is the Antichrist …

                http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/50914-why-so...

                It turns out, 1 in 5 Republicans think Obama is the Antichrist, according to Public Policy Polling. Obama is an pro-abortion activist and a pro-gay president who …

                • Good day jardalkal,

                  You said:
                  “You say seal 1 has not been opened because the Antichrist has not been revealed.
                  OBAMA PROCLAIMS – I AM The ANTICHRIST – The ISLAMIC MAHDI …”

                  Obama can claim that he is the antichrist all he wants, but unless he fits the characteristics that scripture specifies, neither Obama nor anyone else has yet met the requirements as being the antichrist.

                  The antichrist will be revealed when he makes his seven year covenant with Israel. Once he does that, 3 1/2 years later he will set up the abomination in the holy place within the temple. Since Obama has not made a seven year covenant with Israel and no abomination has been set up, and he has not received a fatal wound, then Obama cannot be the antichrhist. Those are for starters.

                  You said:
                  “Wiles: So either Barack Obama is the Man of Sin, commonly known as the Antichrist, the Bible doesn’t say ‘Antichrist’ it says ‘Man of Sin.’ ”

                  The man in question is referred to by a couple of different names, the ruler – Dan.9:26, The man of lawlessness – 2 Thes.2:3, John refers to him as the antichrst – 1 Jn.2:18, and as the beast in Revelation.

                  The reason why so many people think Obama is the antichrist is for the same reason that they said it was Nero, Hitler, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan, and everyone else that they have guessed at. The fact is that, it won’t be until that person comes along that fits the criteria of what scripture says. Until then, they are only guesses.

                  I maintain, based on scripture, that Obama is not the antichrist and that the 1st seal has yet to be opened.

                  • Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant.

                    right now, bozo is about to make a covenant with the many arab groups to recognize Palestine, using words that refer to Israel as terrorist in nature. He does not care if Israel agrees to this.

                    if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.

              • DmCal 52

                You still have not answered my question and you still believe 7 years is short.

                Which is shorter? 2550 dys, 1260 days, or 365 Days.

                So far you have mentioned 7 years (2550 days) and 1260 days as being short compared to 365 days.

                So which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 days.

                • Jardalkal,

                  You said:
                  “You still have not answered my question and you still believe 7 years is short.

                  Which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 Days.
                  So far you have mentioned 7 years (2550 days) and 1260 days as being short compared to 365 days. So which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 days.”

                  Not sure why you are asking this, because the answer is obvious. So, I’ll just say the following:

                  The decree proclaimed against Israel in Dan.9:24-27 seventy sets of seven year periods, which totals 490 years.

                  7 X 7 = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem

                  62 X 7 = The Messiah cut off/crucified at the end of 69 sevens

                  Christ’s being cut off brings us to 69 sevens being fulfilled. At that time, God put a hold on that last seven years described in Dan.9:27, because it was to be fulfilled at a future time, when that antichrist would be revealed. The next event to take place will be when the restrainer is taken out of the way and therefore the church with him, and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed when he makes that seven year covenant. In Mt.24:15, Jesus quoting Dan.9:27 identified the setting up of the abomination as the beginning of the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 year period. Regarding that last 3 1/2 years, Jesus said,

                  “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

                  In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the the specified 3 1/2 years, then no one on earth would be left alive.

                  The book of Revelation refers to that seven years as, 1260 days, 42 months and as a time, times and a half a time.

                  First 3 1/2 years:

                  The two witnesses prophesy

                  Second 3 1/2 years:

                  * Abomination set up
                  * The beast is given authority to make war and conquer the saints
                  * The woman/Israel is cared for out in the desert

          • Decal

            I think you may have misunderstood me. I was saying that the 7th trumpet is one blown by an angel but the trump of God is God’s voice sounding like a trumpet. Two different trumpets and events.

  16. Greetings Jardalkal,

    you said:
    “There is no mention of the word wrath in Chapters 1-6 until you get to the 7tth seal.”

    Yours and others error regarding this stems from the following:

    “the great day of their wrath [has come] and who can endure it”

    you interpret the wrath as taking place after the announcement, which is the error. The words “has come” also includes what will have previously taken place, namely the seals 1 thru 4. In further support of this, I would remind you that “has come” is also in the Aorist tense.

    The facts is that it is Jesus who is the One opening the seals and the result is that a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth are killed, which based on 7 billion people would be 1.7 billion fatalities. People come up with all kinds of apologetic’s in order to dismiss the idea that just because Jesus is opening the seals doesn’t mean that it represents God’s wrath. They do this only to support the belief that they have adopted and that because we are living in that time that Paul spoke of when people would not put up with sound docrine.

    The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments were never meant to be sliced up into one part being tribulation and the other the wrath of God. It is because of false teachings that this has come about. These three sets of seven judgments are how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the earth. They will be the fulfillment of what both the OT prophets and the apostles proclaimed, which will be the fulfillment of day of the Lord leading up to Christ’s return to end the age.

    Since scripture makes very clear that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God’s coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf, believers cannot and will not go through God’s wrath. The church will be gathered from this earth before that first seal is opened, guaranteed! Therefore, comfort one another with these words. Consequently, there would be no comfort if the living church were to go through God’s wrath. Nor would it be a blessed hope.

    • dmcal

      those that deserve the wrath are still busy persecuting others in the first 5 seals to notice any wrath

    • dmcal52
      Here is your stupid teaching on that.
      1) 6 years of seals and trumpet judgements, and one year of bowl judgements.
      or 3.5 years of Trumpet Judgments and 3.5 years of Bowl judgments.
      I have read all the books that people sell.
      Isaiah’s Teachings and Jim Gui? agrees: 5 months of Trumpet Judgments and 7 months of bowl judgements.
      Now comes the problem. “these times will be shortened in Matthew 24:
      The seals occur between v. 3 and 14. Then comes the rest. Why is verse 16 not mentioned at v. 3. Why place it after the seals?
      Which is shorter: 2550 days or 365 days. You in your demented state would say 2550 days is shorter than 365 days.
      Like you say, you can not use math because it would show up your lies.

      • jar

        do not accuse him of lying. this is just his opinion.

      • Good day Jardalkal,

        I would have to say that by your attitude, you shouldn’t be one to be teaching anything from scripture, because you have other issues going on. But regarding the Lord’s reference to “except those days were shortened” the meaning is that, if the time of wrath was allowed to go on any longer than what scripture states, which is 3 1/2 years, then no one would be left alive on the earth. As it is, the prophecy is for seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation and that because it is combined with God’s wrath and is the time when the beast will be given authority to make war and conquer the saints.

        You said:
        “I have read all the books that people sell.”

        And that is where your error most likely comes from. I read scripture as my source for the truth, not the teachings of men. The information that I am sharing with you comes from many years of study in end-time events.

        You said:
        “Like you say, you can not use math because it would show up your lies”

        Please reveal where I have said that about not using math and where I have lied. I don’t lie about scripture, but I proclaim what I know from comparing and cross-referencing scripture.

        You said:
        “Isaiah’s Teachings and Jim Gui? agrees: 5 months of Trumpet Judgments and 7 months of bowl judgements.”

        I’m not concerned too much about the length of time for each seal, trumpet and bowl judgment, but I can tell you this, 5 months for the trumpet judgments as you stated above, will definitely not work. And that because the 5th trumpet by itself is 5 months long, as can be determined from the following:

        “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.” (Rev.9:5)

        “They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.” (Rev.9:10)

        So as you can see, the 5th trumpet alone is 5 months in length and therefore, the trumpet judgments must cover a greater time period than just 5 months.

        You said:
        “Now comes the problem. “these times will be shortened in Matthew 24: The seals occur between v. 3 and 14. Then comes the rest. Why is verse 16 not mentioned at v. 3. Why place it after the seals?

        Regarding the above, did you see where I mentioned that the words “the great day of their wrath ‘has come’ ” as being in the Aorist tense? Do you know what the Aorist tense is?

        Aorist:
        aorist. n. 1. (Grammar) grammar a tense of the verb in classical Greek and in certain other inflected languages, indicating past action without reference to whether the action involved was momentary or continuous.

        Therefore, the words ‘has come’ ” includes what had previously taken place as well, namely the first four seals and not just everything that comes after the announcement. The meaning of those words would be, “the great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.”

        • DmCal52
          You already lie because you are not 52 years old.

          Which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days or 365 days.

          You say the seals come first, then the Trumpet Judgments and then the Bowl Judgments.
          Then you say the seals are not stacked but then you say the seals are stacked over the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.

          Make up your wishy, washy mind.

          You are the one who should not be teaching.

          • “Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.”

            “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

          • Hello jardalkal,

            Is that the same kind of logic that you use to interpret scripture too? I have not lied. My id is dmcal52, because that was how old I was when I first signed up on Marianne’s page. I’m not going to change it to reflect my age every year.

            • DmCal52,

              365 days is shorter for the Day of the Lord. The Great Tribulation for Israel Biblical lands is 1260 days of the 2550 days or 7 years but it is the last year that the Trumpet and Bowl judgements are poured out.
              You see the problem is to call the Day of the Lord being 7 years. In the Bible, it should be 7 Days of the Lord instead of Day of the Lord if you plan on 7 years for the Day of the Lord.
              So you have to cut out of the Bible out 24:5; Jn 6:40, 44,54, Revelation 2:10; 3 verses in Isaiah, and this:

              Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
              Rev_22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

              For me that is too much to cut out of the Bible to keep to the philosophy that the Day of the Lord will be 7 years of hell on earth. As it is for the Bible Lands, they go through 9 years (Rev 2:10) of Hell before the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments arrive in the last year.

            • DmCal58,
              Covenant of Many 1.

              Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Covenant (MOU) “Memorandum of Understanding” was signed by anti-Christ with the Arab League on April 23, 2009 on Day 5 in the month of Abib/Nisan. http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/holy-see-and-league-of-arab-states-sign-agreement. Yom HaShoah Israel State Holiday Holocaust Remembrance Day. This could have been the seven year peace treaty everybody was looking for to be signed.
              Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Pope’s Secretary of State was present to represent the Holy See, along with other Vatican officials, including Monsignor Fortunatus Nwachukwu, Monsignor Alberto Ortega; Monsignor Christophe El-Kassis, Monsignor Nicolas Thevenin and Monsignor Lech Piechota.

              A delegation from the League of Arab States was headed by Walid Al Gargani. Some member countries of the league were also represented by their ambassadors to the Holy See.

              The League of Arab States, seated in Cairo, was started in 1945, and is comprised of 22 countries, including: Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Kuwait.
              Israel is not mentioned nor is it a member of the Arab League.
              This is a weak transaction in my opinion but there is the possibility of it being a peace treaty. What is interesting is that it is in the month of Abib which gives it credence. March 22, 2013 was on day 6 on the Fast of Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) in the month of Abib. If Jesus returns on September 23, 2017 on the Day of Trumpet, then March 22, 2013 is 1290 days from the Day of Trumpet in 2016. The Holocaust was the death of Jews during WWII.

            • I guess that makes me marianne 56 🙂

            • DmCal 50+2-20,
              Covenant of Many 2

              Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. The Final 70 years were confirmed to have started in 1947 at the order to restore Jerusalem. By the exact number of years, 62, it was confirmed that the Covenant with Many would be signed in 2009. 1947 + 62 = 2009. By the exact number of days, 1260, the Covenant with Many was confirmed as the Nobel Peace Prize given to Barack Obama. October 9, 2009 Friday, to March 22, 2013 is exactly 1260 days, 3.5 years, Midweek on the final 7 years. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ has been shown by the exact number of days, 1290 days from March 22, 2013 to Oct 3, 2016, the first day of Rosh Hoshanna, the Feast of Trumpets. Nov 11, 1947+69 shemitahs (7 years) =2016. signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4
              1947+62 shavuots=Obama becoming president on January 20th, 2009+7=Obama’s Presidency ends.
              October 9, 2009 was on day 6 during Feast of Tabernacles. Obama was given the Nobel Peace Medaillion in honor of keeping the Non-Proliferation Treaty of the UN in 1968. “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_laureates;

              • Jaldalkal said:
                “Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. ”

                Since the seven year covenant with Israel has not yet been established, then the abomination which takes place in the middle of the seven years could not have taken place either. The antichrist has yet to be revealed. Until that covenant is made, the antichrist has not yet been revealed.

                Jaldalkal said:
                “signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4

                The fact that you go to YouTube to prove your position is the problem. This is what is meant by, “the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine. But to suit their own desires, they will gather around themselves a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. To put this into perspective for today, that great number of teachers are books, seminars, youtube, websites and hearsay. Scripture is the only source of God’s truth.

                Regarding Obama, until he or anyone else exhibits the characteristics written about regarding the man of lawlessness/antichrist, neither he nor anyone else can be the antichrist. Obama has not received a fatal wound and revived. He is not speaking boastful words against God and those who dwell in heaven. There is no false prophet performing miraculous signs on anyone’s one’s behalf. In short, until someone comes along and performs what is written regarding the antichrist, then hasn’t come yet. Obama is just another in the long line of peoples guesses at who the antichrist is and that’s it.

                • DmCal52,
                  I guess that you do not watch TV, read books, articles, magazines, or go to seminars, webinars, or watch Youtube video’s. I bet you that you do not even listen to the Radio. You do not visit Breaking Israel News.com. You also do not get wordpress announcements either.
                  So why are you on Marianne’s Webpage with itchy ears?
                  So you just read the Bible 20 hours out of the day. Did you know that by doing that, you can read the Bible in one month. Month after Month after Month after Month with no social life of any kind.

                  • dmcal can visit here, like you do….

                  • Actually, I do watch tv. the news, listen to the radio, read books, articles, etc. I just don’t use them as my source for the truth of God’s word. I also get wordpress announcements, otherwise i wouldn’t be alerted via email when new wordpress threads are created.

                    I am not on Marianne’s web page with itching ears. But when I see false teachings, I correct them by using scripture to back it up. I’m just trying to give you the reasons regarding your claim of Obama being the antichrist and why that is not possible. In order to make any biblical claims, the characteristics of that claim must be present for the person or event, otherwise it just conjecture and hearsay.

                    • I hope I am not “itching” anyone’s ears….my desire is that people think for themselves

                    • John Ashcraft here.
                      I just read books and articles because I am autistic with Asperger Syndrome. I do not watch TV especially the news, nor do I own a radio.
                      Instaed I use the internet until it is taken down. I do watch a lot of youtube especially Star Trek, Sci-Fi, and I love to watch disaster movies.
                      Most of my information comes from Headlines of news articles. My main sources are Breaking Israel News, Steve Quayle.com, Beforeitsnews.com, and occasionally other prophecy websites.
                      I don’t even go to church on the Sabbath or Sunday but I do listen to Online Church Services who have prophecy as one of their main emphasis.
                      I have been kicked out of most local congregations in my area due to 1) Autism; 2) Sabbath Keeping; 3) Sabbath study tied to Feasts of the Lord; 4) Eschatological views. 30% of the Bible ties to Leviticus 23 which ties to Gen 1:14 (a prophecy) which ties to Gen 1:1 (a prophecy); and 5) God dreams and obedience to God and the fulfillment of those dreams. The next one on this list of over 40 is a global earthquake. Timerame: Day of Atonement or Day of Trumpet or even the 2nd Month of 5777 and the 17th Day (Nov. 16-18) or Oct? in 2017.

                    • John,

                      OT but…

                      At what age did you actually sort of join the world so to speak? My 11 yo son is Aspergers (though no longer recognized separately from autism). He’s very unfocused, in his own video game world. Still afraid of bikes at 11. I heard it gets better in the teenage years. Does it?

            • DmCal 60,

              Covenant of Many 3.
              Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant.

              right now, bozo is about to make a covenant with the many arab groups to recognize Palestine, using words that refer to Israel as terrorist in nature. He does not care if Israel agrees to this.

              if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.

              Marianne said this on October 31, 2016 at 11:04 am | Reply

              • Hello jardalkal,

                First of all a correction “Dmcal59.” I turned 59 this last June. But if it is all the same to you, I will just leaven my id as Dmcal52, because I don’t feel like changing every year to match my age.

                Jaldalkal said:
                “Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant”

                First of all, since the decree in Dan.9:24-27 was directed to Daniel’s people (Israel) and their holy city (Jerusalem), then yes, the covenant will be made with them. Also, that the covenant is with Israel can be deduced from that fact that, the ruler causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease, which would be speaking of Israel’s sacrifices and offerings. And thirdly, Dan.9:27 states that in the middle of the seven years, an abomination will be set up in the holy place, which would identify the location as being in the Jewish temple. So yes, the scripture does infer that the covenant will at least be with Israel. I suspect that it will also be with Islam in order to be able to build the temple on the temple mount.

                Jaldalkal said:
                if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.”

                No one is going to take the land from Israel. We still have the prophecy of Ezekiel 37-38. where God causes those who are coming down to attack Israel, Gog and Magog, where every man’s weapon will be against his fellow soldier. God wipes them out on the mountains of Israel without Israel lifting a finger.

                Prior to that event, in the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up, it will cause the desolation, which is where those in Jerusalem and Judea will flee into the desert and will be cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years, as recorded in Matt.24:15-21 and Rev.12:6,14.

                • Decal 52,
                  I am turning 58 on the 19th which is the Sabbath just after the Second Month and Seventeenth Day of Genesis 7:11 which is a part of Daniel’s timeline
                  Proclamation of Israel 1947 CE. 1947 +62 Shavuots (Weeks/Feast of Weeks/Pentecosts) = 2009 when Obama received the Norwegian Peace Medallion (Covenant of Many; Daniel 9:25-27) + 1260 days = March 22, 2013 (Obama’s Trip to Israel where he did seven events that are assigned to the Antichrist). The trip was March 20th-23rd, Wed-Sabbath). March 22 was Abib 10 (Fast of Ahab and Nabib?). This day was the dy that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on his beast and Obama rode into Jerusalem on his beast. 1335 days (Daniel 12) lands us on Nov. 18th, 2016 which is the day the flood began.
                  Could it be that the Great Tribulation or the Day of the Lord can begin on the exact day the Flood began?
                  Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com (Cheshvan 2016 2nd Month of 5777 or Month 8). 8 means a new beginning.

                  The Ezekiel War is is chapter 38 and 39 and not 37 and 38. It is also called the War of Armageddon.
                  I believe WWIII war will be the war between the King of the North and the King of the South (Dan 11). It may take place either in the Middle East or in Ukraine.
                  Here are the 2 teams.
                  King of the North: Russia coming together with China and India, Philippines, Iraq, Egypt, and Turkey
                  Russia, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Phillipines, Iraq, China, India

                  King of the South: Islamic Extremists (ISIS Cia Operation; ISIL); NATO Backed by Obama.
                  This war will or may be tied to the Psalm 83 War which is the War prior to the Ezekiel 38-39 War. This war is also tied to Ezekiel 37.

                  • Greetings jardalkal,

                    You said:
                    “(Obama’s Trip to Israel where he did seven events that are assigned to the Antichrist).”

                    The way that the antichrist will be revealed, is by the one who establishes that seven year covenant with Israel.

                    Another sign is that 3 1/2 years after he establishes that seven year covenant, he will cause Israel’s sacrifices to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple.

                    He will also receive a fatal wound (something that can’t be survived) and will recover from it and that for further deception.

                    From the middle of that seven years, he will proclaim himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped and he will have authority over every tribe, people, nation and language.

                    He will also have that false prophet performing those miracles, signs and wonders on his behalf and that in order to deceive the inhabitants of the world.

                    These are the signs that identify the antichrist and Obama has not done any of those things. This man who is coming will be unlike any political leader that the word has seen and the will be drawn to him and in awe of him. Obama does not fit any of the criteria as the antichrist.

                    • DmCal52,
                      You have only said 4 items of the Antichrist but you left out at least 10 others. You need to do your homework which you have not done.

                      The Antichrist must relate to a large number of biblical names and references to himself. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willfull king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.
                      Before Christ returns to set up His kingdom of peace, Satan will enter a man’s body and present his counterfeit, the Antichrist, as the Messiah. This internationally deified dictator will inaugurate a world peace program which holds the world spellbound for 42 months, or three and one-half years. When the world believes utopia has arrived, the bottom falls out. In the middle of the seven -year period of Tribulation, the Antichrist breaks all of his pledges and destroys his contractual obligations with Israel (Daniel 9:27; I Thess 5:3). He will come out of an amalgamation of ten Western nations (Daniel 9:36).
                      This sinister, demon-inspired leader will rise to dominate the world in the end-time, persecute the saints, seek to destroy the Jew and banish the name of God and His Christ from the earth, and thus take over.
                      King of Babylon (Isa 14:4)
                      Little horn (Daniel 7:8). The “little horn” arises out of the fourth beast which represents Rome. It is likely that Antichrist will rise out of the revived Roman Empire. This term is also used of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9.
                      Others believe that he will come out of the Ottoman Empire or Islamic Empire.
                      King of fierce countenance (Dan 8:23). Antichrist will be a cruel ruler, trampling men under foot without fear of God. He is also called the willful king (Daniel 11:36).
                      The prince that shall come (Daniel 9:26). The people of the coming prince are the ones who will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD under Titus, seeming to identify the Antichrist as a Roman head of the revived Roman Empire.
                      That man of sin or man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3). The Antichrist is a lawless individual, the very embodiment of sin.

                      5 pages to go.

                    • DmCal52
                      4 views of the Antichrist.

                      “Principle of evil” view. Advocates propose that Antichrist is a personification of some evil principle, power (s), or idea (s) of the world, always until the end of time in opposition to the kingdom of God.

                      Institution of evil” view. This is an appropriate name for the idea that the Roman Empire or the Papacy or the Muslim religion, is the Antichrist. We have the Black Pope, the White Pope, Erdogan, and Obama, and Prince William as candidates for this position.
                      So far, it is a tie between the Papacy and the Muslim religion but the Muslims are gaining by Political Jihad.

                      “Person of evil” view is still another. Some contemporary man who seems particularly dangerous to Christianity in the opinion of the interpreter has frequently been held to be the man of sin of II Thess 2 or the Beast of Revelation and Daniel.
                      This is your view of the Antichrist.

                      Among evangelicals, far more common is what may be called the “organic” view. This is the opinion that good and evil have parallel development and reach ultimate concummation in a personal Christ and a personal Antichrist and that these meet in final conflict at the second advent of Christ.

                    • DmCal52
                      The Doctrine of the Antichrist. Though Daniel and Revelation have more material on this subject, the most detailed systematic treatment is in II Thess 2. Examination yields information that a consummately evil person called “the man of sin,” “son of perdition, and “lawless one” shall someday “be revealed.” This revelation is to take place before (presumably shortly before) “the day of the Lord.” With revelation of the man of sin will come a general apostasy from true religion, or “falling away.” He will oppose God, exalt himself, demand divine honors, and in a general way be consummate godlessness and Antichrist. His coming will be the fruition of evil forces (“the mystery of lawlessness”) now operating (II Thess 2:7). His success shall come, temporarily, by Satanic power and divine permissive providence (vv. 9-12), but ultimately he shall be slain by Christ’s own manifestation at His coming (v. 8) See also Rev 13:1 ff; Dan 7:8ff; 11:36ff). Jesus speaks of him as one who comes in his “own name” (Jn 5:43).

                      Both Obama and the White Pope has said that they have come in their own name. For the Pope, it was 9/20-23+ in 2015.

                      The Pope and Obama has opposed God.
                      They both have exalted themselves. The Pope is called the Vicar of God.
                      They both demand divine honors. People bow to the Pope and people bow or worship Obama.
                      Both the Pope and Obama consummate godlessness and are Antichrist.

                      Some even say Putin is the Antichrst.
                      In some circles I have been in, they believe that America is controlled by the Papacy and the Papacy tells Obama what to do and he also listens more to all the Islamics that he has placed in the offices at Washington. It is rumored that over 1/2 of the offices if not 3/4’s is governed over by Islamics now. Back in 2014, Obama fired all the Christians working in DC Capital and replaced them with Islamics.

                • DmCal52
                  “Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant”
                  Marianne said this. I just requoted it. I am autistic and I often repeat what others say or write. For me, it is called: Echolalia. There is a technical term for it but it is not in my vocabulary until I repeat it often.
                  Personally, I repeat words, phrases, or whole sentences. However, I writing, I cut, copy, and paste what others say even though I do get them sometimes misquoted.
                  I don’t misquote them but I forget time sequences occasionally like I did with DJ and Obama’s trip around March 20th-23rd, 2013. I remember 22nd mostly so I guessed that it was from the 22 to the 25th without relooking at the article I compiled from other sources.

  17. Hal Lindsey: Get Ready! No Remaining Prophesies Need to Be Fulfilled Before Christ Returns (Video).

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:26

    Beforeitsnews.com Hal Lindsey Report by Due Diligence.

  18. her mention about the book of enoch


  19. ” Journalists ” don’t try to gin up sympathy by injecting themselves into a story . B. It’s all staged to push their Agenda , he provides time to push their propaganda for his puppet masters .
    Bottom line , Most ” news ” is all STAGED ., wikileak prove it,
    this guy is such a scum bag, the way he lies with his soft spoken language and intelligence. They are slowly revealing themselves and they want us to know who they are. This is America and it is hard to believe this is happening in this way.
    the guy is an illuminati puppet – he is a counsel of foreign relations / new world order PUPPET – these reporters their scripts for the mind control of the population, wikileaks prove it, Just look at the look in his evil eyes. This guy is a piece of illuminati -puppet. wikileaks prove it, puppet of his master,
    this owl & other symbols, that owl is a symbol for child sacrifice, since when kids were sacrificed to moloch they were said to always be the first born of the family

  20. http://www.tenboom.com/en/index.html

    Ten corrie boom and her family ‘story , we need to watch this

    http://tenboom.org/

    carrie boom museum



  21. http://www.tenboom.com/en/index.html


  22. Hi Marianne ,

    social justice is not biblical , right ?

    if they are different , could you briefly , one or two word to tell the difference.

    thanks

    • q

      the term “social justice” has a very liberal and limited definition

      true divine social justice is fairness to everyone…..not just a select group, to the harm of others.. it is also holy, and in line with god’s will and commandments…and is born out of love toward others

      the liberal view discriminates against jews, christians, and most of the human race, especially women and babies…example abortion.. only some are seen as victims, only some are given rights, and others have no rights.. most of the time, evil rules and good suffers.. liberal view is selfish and unfair



  23. Hi Marianne,

    what is your endtime timeline?
    from the above video 1260, the pastor think this year we might enter into the
    final 7 years?

    what is your thoughts ?

    thanks

    God BLess

    q

    • q

      it seems like something would have to happen before bozo leaves office.

    • Hello q,

      If I may jump in here: We are most definitely living in that last generation leading up to that last seven years. taking into consideration the current condition of the world governments and the fact that we currently have the technology for computer chip implants and that people are already being implanted under the skin of the hand, would be just one way of knowing that we are very close The reason that we have this technology demonstrates that he stage is being set for the beast and his mark. I hopefully this link regarding the chip implant will work:

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      • DmCal52 and Q,
        Mark of the Beast mandatory by 2017
        Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com.
        Real ID mandatory for the USA by November 18. Local Newspaper heading. I think there was an earlier date than the 18th, So plan on getting a new driver’s license soon.

  24. http://www.ihopkc.org/resources/asset/2016_10_30_1100_MSG_FCF/auto/true/

  25. DmCal 52,
    Covenant of Many.

    The way that the antichrist will be revealed, is by the one who establishes that seven year covenant with Israel.

    The date is the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles in 2009.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Weeks above refers to Lev. 23 Feast of Weeks or Pentecost in Christian terms.
    So we have 70 years to fulfill.

    1945 CE Sabbath year (Shmita שמיטה‎) Atomic Bomb dropped on Japan on Aug 9th; WWII ends Sept 2, 1945 (war in the sky-Rev 12); United League of Nations changed name to the United Nations (change times and seasons). Liberation of Jews from prison camps.
    Perry Stone Jubilee 69th Jubilee
    1946 CE The first meeting of the United Nations (UN) is held in London. The “fig tree nation” – Israel – put forth its leaves in 1947 (UN resolution 181) when it was recognized by the UN as being a nation … a “generation” is generally considered to be 70 years. Which means that before 2017 all that Yahovah prophesied concerning the end-time events MUST come to pass.
    1947 CE Nov. 29, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews; Dead Sea Scrolls discovered. Parallel dates: Abraham was born in 1948 BCE. From 1494 until 1949 there were ZERO sets of blood Red Moons! Proclamation for Israel to become a nation went out. 70 years to 2017. Israel (Lamentations 2) is the little horn of the beast of Revelation 12. The Mediterranean Sea upside down looks like a Beast. Jewish Year 5708 =Seasons of the birth pains = Matt 24:8 sorrows/birth pains.
    1948 CE May 14, Israel is re-established 1260 + 1260 years since Ezekiel measured Temple Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin” (Daniel 5:5,24) 1000 + 1000 + 20 (Aramaic Mina, which equaled 1,000 Gerahs plus Tekel (Shekel equals 20 Gerahs) dividing “Mene” would have to be 500 therefore the total years are 2520 from 539 BCE to 1948 CE; End of British Mandate (14 May)State of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Jerusalem divided under Israeli and Jordanian rule. First Knesset (parliament) elected. Israel admitted to United Nations as 59th member. Israel reestablished as a nation after 18 years. 1948=5708 Jewish year and the 5,708 verse in the Torah is Deut. 30:5.

    2015-2018 is the 70 years timeslot. 2015 was a Sabbath Year. Remember the events in September of 2015 in America with the Speeches from Obama and the Pope. I have all the articles on this one. As for signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, there were 9 in this year.
    2016 was the Gregorian Year of Jubilee. As for sings in the Sun, Moon, and Stars, there have been over 20 so far. November makes around 24.
    2017 has over 20 events tied to Israel’s past. We also have the Woman clothed with the Sun in 2017 on the Day of Trumpet which may or will be the Second Coming of Jesus and possibly Armageddon on the 30th of September on the Day of Atonement.
    2018 The Second Coming and Armageddon on the Day of Atonement.

    The other timeframe according to Psalm 90 is 80 years which will be from 2025-2028, but you lose 50 percent of the events that line up with 2017.

  26. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Double Prophecy. 1st one was 28-33 CE and 70 CE by Jesus who is Messiah the Prince.
    70 minus 40 years is 30 CE for the Death of Christ. 40 is a Biblical number.
    Michael Rood believes Jesus had a 70 week ministry. I have the documents. So his death date is 28 CE or 29 CE.
    Most Christians believe 33 CE was His death and they believe it was on a Friday which is Man’s day/Satan’s Day which goes against Leviticus 23. God follows the 4th day and the Sabbath’s while man follows Friday and Sunday.

    Now this is where the Christians change and say that this refers to the Antichrist and not Jesus but personally I believe Jesus fulfilled it fully.

    Jardalkal@aol.com.

    • Good day jardalkal,

      You said:
      “Now this is where the Christians change and say that this refers to the Antichrist and not Jesus but personally I believe Jesus fulfilled it fully. ”

      In Dan.9:27, the “He” of the verse performs the following:

      * “He” establishes a seven year covenant with many/Israel

      * In the middle of the seven “He” puts a stop to sacrifices

      * In the middle of the seven “He” sets up an abomination

      Regarding the above, a person might be able to convince people that Jesus is the “He” of the verse, fulfilling the first two on the list. But when you come to the third, it becomes obvious that Jesus cannot be the “He” of the verse.

      The word “bdelugma” translated as abomination, is defined as “properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent” before God. And since it is an act against God, Jesus could not be the “He” in the verse who is setting up the abomination, for he would be blaspheming God the Father and himself.

      The issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given by King Artaxerxes on behalf of Nehemiah. The date listed in the margin of my Bible is 446-445 BC.

      7 X 7 (49 years) = to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

      62 x 7 (434 years) = At the end of 69 sevens Messiah crucified

      Total 483 years

      446 BC minus 483 years = 37 AD

      This puts us in the ball park of the Messiah being cut off/Christ crucified. With the calendar change, this would fit perfectly.

      From the time of the Messiah being cut off, God put a hold on the last seven years for a future fulfillment at the end the age and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the church from the earth. Following that, the last seven years of that seventy sevens will commence when that ruler, the antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel.

      It is during this last seven years that God will pour out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all that is written regarding Israel.

      • DmCal52.

        Many scholars place the death of Jesus between 29 CE and 33 CE.
        Now I understand why you believe that we have at least 10 to 20 more years to go until the return of Christ.
        You definitely have a faulty math issue. Michael Rood says 29 CE for the Death of Christ. Dr William Frederick says 33 CE.

        Yours says 37 CE when Christ ministry began in 27 CE. So why do you believe Jesus had a ten year ministry?

        Conception of Christ Chanukkah 3 BC +30 years =27 CE +10 year ministry = 37 CE for his death. Most believe that he had a 3 year ministry and some believe He had a 70 week ministry.
        So why do you believe that He had a ten year ministry?

  27. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    1947 CE Nov. 29, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews; Dead Sea Scrolls discovered. Parallel dates: Abraham was born in 1948 BCE. From 1494 until 1949 there were ZERO sets of blood Red Moons! Proclamation for Israel to become a nation went out. 70 years to 2017. Israel (Lamentations 2) is the little horn of the beast of Revelation 12. The Mediterranean Sea upside down looks like a Beast. Jewish Year 5708 =Seasons of the birth pains = Matt 24:8 sorrows/birth pains.

    1947+62 Weeks/Feast of Weeks/Pentecost= 2009.

    2009 Solar eclipse 1st day of Abib אביב. Matthew 24: 6-8 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    2009 Sabbath Year

    1) Covenant (MOU) “Memorandum of Understanding” was signed by anti-Christ with the Arab League on April 23, 2009 on Day 5 in the month of Abib/Nisan. http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/holy-see-and-league-of-arab-states-sign-agreement. Yom HaShoah Israel State Holiday Holocaust Remembrance Day. This could have been the seven year peace treaty everybody was looking for to be signed.
    Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Pope’s Secretary of State was present to represent the Holy See, along with other Vatican officials, including Monsignor Fortunatus Nwachukwu, Monsignor Alberto Ortega; Monsignor Christophe El-Kassis, Monsignor Nicolas Thevenin and Monsignor Lech Piechota.

    A delegation from the League of Arab States was headed by Walid Al Gargani. Some member countries of the league were also represented by their ambassadors to the Holy See.

    The League of Arab States, seated in Cairo, was started in 1945, and is comprised of 22 countries, including: Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Kuwait.
    Israel is not mentioned nor is it a member of the Arab League.
    This is a weak transaction in my opinion but there is the possibility of it being a peace treaty. What is interesting is that it is in the month of Abib which gives it credence.

    2) Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. The Final 70 years were confirmed to have started in 1947 at the order to restore Jerusalem. By the exact number of years, 62, it was confirmed that the Covenant with Many would be signed in 2009. 1947 + 62 = 2009. By the exact number of days, 1260, the Covenant with Many was confirmed as the Nobel Peace Prize given to Barack Obama. October 9, 2009 Friday, to March 22, 2013 is exactly 1260 days, 3.5 years, Midweek on the final 7 years. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ has been shown by the exact number of days, 1290 days from March 22, 2013 to Oct 3, 2016, the first day of Rosh Hoshanna, the Feast of Trumpets. Nov 11, 1947+69 shemitahs (7 years) =2016. signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4

    1947+62 shavuots=Obama becoming president on January 20th, 2009+7=Obama’s Presidency ends.
    October 9, 2009 was on day 6 during Feast of Tabernacles. Obama was given the Nobel Peace Medaillion in honor of keeping the Non-Proliferation Treaty of the UN in 1968. “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_laureates; http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html.

    I wait for your response that these events did not happen and these events do not fit the Antichrist as you DCal52 say that this is not a part for Obama.

  28. Morning Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “DmCal52,
    You have only said 4 items of the Antichrist but you left out at least 10 others.”

    Those characteristics that I mentioned are the ones that will identify him. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant. Until you see someone perform this, he is not the antichrist. Do you actually believe that Obama is going to have authority over every tribe, people, nation and language? Hardly! If Obama was the antichrist, we would have know it immediately.

    You said:
    “The Antichrist must relate to a large number of biblical names and references to himself. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willful king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.”

    I have mentioned all those things that you listed above in previous posts. He will perform all of those things mentioned in Daniel after he has established that seven year period. The one that will identify him right from the get-go, will be the establishing of that seven years. If Obama was the antichrist, we would have known it a lot sooner than this. You can continue to believe that Obama is the antichrist if you want, but I can guarantee you, he is not the one.

    You said:
    “Satan will enter a man’s body and present his counterfeit, the Antichrist, as the Messiah”

    It is not Satan that is going to take control of the antichrist, but it will be that angel of that comes up out of the Abyss, the beast.. He is the one who will control him. And we know that the beast and Satan are two separate entities. The proof of this is that, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, while Satan is thrown into the Abyss and restricted there during that thousand years. Suffice to say, if you’ve got the beast going to one place and Satan going to another, then they can’t be the same entity.

    • who is a/c ? do you think ?

      • Hello q,

        I don’t have a candidate and that because no one has met the requirements of the ac. I believe that person will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant with Israel. Once he does this, those who are on the earth at that time and know scripture, will recognize him and will know that from the time that he initiates that seven year covenant, that 3 1/2 years later he is going to break it and set up that abomination in the holy place. According to 2 Thes.2:4, this man will also stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

        I also believe that the abomination referred to in Daniel 9:27 and by Jesus in Mt.24:15, is synonymous with the image mentioned in Rev.13:14-15 that the false prophet has the people of the earth make in honor of the first beast/antichrist who survives the fatal wound.

        Also, I believe that the Lord will have appeared and gathered the church prior to the revealing of that antichrist and that because the One who now restrains (Holy Spirit) will be taken out of the way and therefore the church with Him and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

        Aside from this, I have no candidate as to who the ac is and I believe that God meant it to be that way. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant. Until then, everything is conjecture, guesses.

        Have a blessed day!

  29. Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “Both Obama and the White Pope has said that they have come in their own name. For the Pope, it was 9/20-23+ in 2015.”

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.” That said, has Israel received Obama as their Messiah? No, they have not. Neither have they received the pope as Messiah. When the antichrist does show up, he will receive a fatal wound and will survive, and that for the purpose of deceiving them and the inhabitants of the world into believing that he is God in the flesh. In addition, the false prophet (future pope) will be performing miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast as further proof that he is God. Obama has done none of those things. Not even close! The question is, what will you do when Obama doesn’t turn out to be the antichrist? The two identifying factors of the antichrist, regardless of all the other stuff mentioned are these:

    * He will make a covenant with many for seven years

    * In the middle of the seven years he will set up that abomination

    * The woman/Israel will flee into the desert for 1260 days (3 1/2 years)

    The first in the list is the one identifying factor that will reveal that he is that antichrist. The other thing is, I don’t believe the church will be here to see him, but will have been removed prior to his being revealed.

  30. DmCal52,

    Obama is the Antichrist maybe. beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/06/just-released-barack-hussein-obama-coincidence-or-could-he-actually-be-the-antichrist-wait-until-you-see-this-video-2462236.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/06/new-release-barack-hussein-obama-coincidence-or-could-he-actually-be-the-antichrist-wait-until-you-see-this-video-2462258.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFCQvvXSwx4 (About Obama being the Antichrist); The Son of Perdition: Barack Hussein Obama (Part 1 and 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdUkLtwl_hI ; -/www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpUW0CVGKA ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bbfwOU7zg8 ; Barack Obama: 2nd Beast of Revelation Tru News /www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdZRLF1OT5A; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/07/barack-obama-gay-drug-dealing-antichrist-man-testifies; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/sept-3-secrets-antichrist-and-the-end-of-days-they-worship-the-dragon-2463952.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/end-of-days-christians-announce-obamas-the-beast-pastor-says-obama-has-fulfilled-bibles-prophecy-video-2464032.html; beforeitsnews.com/obama/2014/09/drudge-obamas-head-of-horns-what-is-the-message-this-now-viral-picture-is-sending-2466606.html (Picture of horns and a pyramid above the head of Obama the Mahdi); beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/the-second-beast-the-two-horned-dragon-the-devil-himself-image-of-the-beast-2464176.html
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/08/son-of-satan-in-our-midst-barack-obama-is-he-the-antichrist-or-not-watch-this-and-see-for-yourself-the-facts-just-keep-piling-up-against-him-shocking-videos-2463676.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jraSqH5rPrM#t=57 (These two radio show hosts do not call that Obama is the Antichrist but has many of the characteristics)
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/05/judgment-lightning-strikes-world-trade-center-twice-as-pope-is-to-sit-on-king-davids-tomb; http://www.lmci.org/PDFs/EpiskoposFeb2013.pdf Note: Could the Pope just declared himself the Antichrist with this movement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0PfUPXLFUc&index=2&list=PLi5gyjf9yuSGbofuBPlCFi4H-_8MiZaPI; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uig3UFf6o_0
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/05/final-stage-is-now-set-for-the-antichrist-huge-news-only-a-few-weeks-away-urgent-call-for-global-prayer-video-and-photos-2461560.html
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/07/new-antichrist-candidate-and-you-wont-believe-who-it-is-and-the-temple-hes-about-to-desecrate-a-stunning-revelation-you-need-to-know-2462600.html
    beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/09/important-revelation-antichrist-obamas-role-of-imam-mahdi-calling-for-all-muslims-world-wide-to-unite-3021420.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/the-biblical-antichrist-al-mahdi-of-islam-barack-hussein-obama-the-fourth-beast-2463928.html

  31. DmCal52,

    Pope may be the Antichrist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyi-wHQPQRs

    Erdogan may be the Antichrist. 2016 President of the UN Security Council. beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2016/06/beast-and-false-prophet-identified-2481385.html

  32. DmCa52,

    Obama as the Messiah Search







    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/2279718287_1c865f6505.jpg?v=0


    http://image.slidesharecdn.com/obamamessiah-the-new-american-magazine-101308pdf2320/95/obamamessiah-the-new-american-magazine-101308pdf-1-728.jpg?cb=1283698616










    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2317269567_befdeeaa2b.jpg?v=0

    • DmCal52,
      You preach that Obama is not the Messiah or the Antichrist but the evidences from all the pictures, articles, and You-tubes present a better picture that he is. Shall we go to court. By the way, you are up against a paralegal.

      2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
      Deu_19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

      • “the pictures, articles, and You-tubes present a better picture that he is”

        The above is the reason for your error. Stick with the word of God and get away from YouTube and the web-sites.

        • you sure have a lot of patience….

          • Thanks! I would like to think so, as patience it is a virtue of love, but just like everyone else, I have my moments when I am not so patient.

            Though Jardalkal doesn’t believe me now, he will once he sees Obama fade into history with no fulfillment of anything that is written regarding the antichrist. Whoever the antichrist is, he will be recognizable from the on-set.

            I wish that people would stop relying on YouTube and the internet for interpreting prophecy. It is leading them to false conclusions.

            • You won’t have to wait too much longer for that. The internet will be going off the air. When? I do not know. Maybe by December.
              At least you have a TV and radio. I do not even have those. I will need a lot more books to read however.
              Once the internet goes down or freedom of speech goes away, then I will not be doing anything except read 1000 books in 12 months of time.

            • I agree that bozo is evil, and is already bringing destruction on america, and has an antichrist personality, but so have some other leaders…he however does not fulfill all the characteristics, but we will wait and see what happens next, with him around, it will not be good

  33. DmCal52,

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.”

    Beast 1 talk to Beast 2
    Read What President Obama Said to Pope Francis
    President Obama welcomed Pope Francis to the United States with a ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House featuring 15,000 guests.
    Here’s what the president said, according to prepared remarks released by the White House.
    Good morning! What a beautiful day the Lord has made! Holy Father, on behalf of Michelle and myself, welcome to the White House. Our backyard is not typically this crowded – but the size and spirit of today’s gathering is just a small reflection of the deep devotion of some 70 million American Catholics…and the way your message of love and hope has inspired so many people, across our nation and around the world. On behalf of the American people, it is my great honor and privilege to welcome you to the United States of America.

    Today, we mark many firsts. Your Holiness, you have been celebrated as the first Pope from the Americas. This is your first visit to the United States. And you are also the first pontiff to share an Encyclical through a Twitter account.

    Holy Father, your visit not only allows me, in some small way, to reciprocate the extraordinary hospitality you extended to me at the Vatican last year. It also reveals how much all Americans, from every background and of every faith, value the role that the Catholic Church plays in strengthening America. From my time working in impoverished neighborhoods with the Catholic Church in Chicago, to my travels as President, I’ve seen firsthand how, every day, Catholic communities, priests, nuns, and laity feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, educate our children, and fortify the faith that sustains so many.

    You remind us of the costs of war, particularly on the powerless and defenseless, and urge us toward the imperative of peace. Holy Father, we are grateful for your invaluable support of our new beginning with the Cuban people, which holds out the promise of better relations between our countries, greater cooperation across our hemisphere, and a better life for the Cuban people. We thank you for your passionate voice against the deadly conflicts that ravage the lives of so many men, women, and children; and your call for nations to resist the sirens of war and resolve disputes through diplomacy.

    And, Holy Father, you remind us that we have a sacred obligation to protect our planet – God’s magnificent gift to us. We support your call to all world leaders to support the communities most vulnerable to a changing climate and to come together to preserve our precious world for future generations.

    Your Holiness, in your words and deeds, you set a profound moral example. And in these gentle but firm reminders of our obligations to God and to one another, you are shaking us out of complacency. All of us may, at times, experience discomfort when we contemplate the distance between how we lead our daily lives and what we know to be true and right. But I believe such discomfort is a blessing, for it points to something better. You shake our conscience from slumber; you call on us to rejoice in Good News, and give us confidence that we can come together, in humility and service, and pursue a world that is more loving, more just, and more free. Here at home and around the world, may our generation heed your call to “never remain on the sidelines of this march of living hope!”

    For that great gift of hope, Holy Father, we thank you, and welcome you, with joy and gratitude, to the United States of America.

    Beast 1 worshipped Beast 2 and called him (Man) Holy Father 7 times. 6 of them “Holy Father”.

  34. DmCal 52,

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.”

    Address of His Holiness Pope Francis to the General Assembly of the United Nations
    Delivered in New York, on September 25, 2015
    By His Holiness Pope Francis
    Address Of His Holiness Pope Francis To The General Assembly
    Of The United Nations
    http://www.holyseemission.org/contents//statements/statements-56054736193b87.20279259.php
    delivered in New York on September 25, 2015

    The Name of Jesus Christ, of whom Francis claims to be the “vicar” of, was never mentioned one time in any way, shape or form
    “I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.” John 5:41,42 (KJV)
    Pope Francis says some amazing things, but he rarely says them in an amazing way. He speaks with a low, weak voice, mostly in Italian, and can be hard to follow even through the interpreter.
    Note: Jesus in the fifth chapter of John, is talking about the difference between the true representative of God on Earth, Himself, and the Satanically-produced counterfeit of the Antichrist and the False Prophet. In verse 43, Jesus utters these astounding, prophecy-packed words:
    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” John 5:43 (KJV)
    He is ultimately referring to a time, far in the future, when someone would come claiming to represent God, but actually coming in his own name, with his own unGodly agenda. Now, listen to what Pope Francis said as he said these words on Rosh Hashanah, in front of a gathering together of nations of the world:

    Mr President,
    Ladies and Gentlemen,
    Thank you for your kind words. Once again, following a tradition by which I feel honored, the Secretary General of the United Nations has invited the Pope to address this distinguished assembly of nations. In my own name (John 5:43), and that of the entire Catholic community, I wish to express to you, Mr Ban Ki-moon, my heartfelt gratitude. I greet the Heads of State and Heads of Government present, as well as the ambassadors, diplomats and political and technical officials accompanying them, the personnel of the United Nations engaged in this 70th Session of the General Assembly, the personnel of the various programs and agencies of the United Nations family, and all those who, in one way or another, take part in this meeting. Through you, I also greet the citizens of all the nations represented in this hall. I thank you, each and all, for your efforts in the service of mankind.
    Note: Pope Francis said that “I come in my own name” and that of the “entire Catholic community”. Not as a representative of Jesus Christ, not as an ambassador of the Gospel, but Francis stated that he came in his own name, his own power, and that of his Roman church. Rome the place and people that killed Jesus on the cross. The same cross that Francis said “ended in failure.” The Name of Jesus Christ, of whom Francis claims to be the “vicar” of, was never mentioned one time in any way, shape or form. What on Earth could possibly possess him to say that he “comes in his own name”?

    What will you do DmCal52, if either the Pope or Obama is the Antichrist?

  35. DmCal52,

    More on Obama and the Pope.

    Many people have written about Obama and the darkness he exudes. I don’t really want to rehash it here but he is a central character in all of this so before I move on to more September madness let me lay out a few examples that point to Obama being a true contender for the title Antichrist. His name has 18 letters (6+6+6=18). He was born August 4th, 1961, the 216th day of the year (6x6x6=216). His political rise began in Chicago, Illinois, home of the zip code 60606. On November 8th, 2008, the day after the Illinois Senator (Obama) became president elect, the Illinois Pick 3 Lotto was 666. Gematria is a method of interpreting the Hebrew scriptures by computing the numerical value of words, based on those of their constituent letters. In English Gematria the name Barack adds up to 216 (B=12, A=6, R=108, A=6, C=18, K=66). Once again 6x6x6=216.

    And if you think that’s a bit creepy try this. Did Jesus refer to Obama as Satan? In Luke 10:18 Jesus said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” Jesus spoke Hebrew and the word for lightning in Hebrew is baraq.

    On September 23, 2015, President Obama will hold a meeting with Pope Francis at the white house. In the 12th century Saint Malachy, the Archbishop of Armagh, received a prophecy that there would be 112 more popes. Pope Francis is that 112th pope. In 1971, C. Alan Martin received a vision of 12 houses. Years later God showed him in a dream the meaning of the houses. They represented 12 remaining Presidents. The first house represented Truman. The 12th house is Obama. The end of both prophecy and vision was destruction and judgement.

  36. Hello jardalkal,

    Gematria numerology has been used to prove that Nero and Regan and a host of others as being the antichrist as well, so this nothing new under the sun. None of those things mean anything until someone actually establishes a seven year covenant with Israel, receives a fatal wound and recovers, sets up that abomination in the holy place and proclaims himself to be God, to name a few.

    After the election, Obama is going to fade into the background of history, just like all of the former presidents have. If Obama were the antichrist it would have been obvious by now.

    What are you going to do when Obama doesn’t pan out as being the man of lawlessness? What happens to your so-called witnesses above? And where will that leave the validity of the gematria code?

    All of these elements are just part of the conspiracy theories. If Obama was the antichrist, he would become more popular in the eyes of the world, not less.

    • DmCal52,

      So here are the Antichrists: The Pope, Obama, Putin, Prince William, Apostikane, Erdogan, Juan Carlos and a few others. We won’t know for sure until 2017.

      The ones most talk about in order are: Obama, The Pope, Erdogan, and Putin.

      • Jardalkal,

        The problem with those whom you have listed as the antichrist is that, this man that is coming will be very charismatic and the people will be in awe i.e. in amazement of him, as the scripture below demonstrates:

        “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”

        ” All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.”

        Those men in your list have been revealed and are known by the world and none of them fits the any of the criteria that can be garnered from just those two verses above, much less the rest of what is written regarding him. When this antichrist comes, he will fit that criteria from the time that he is revealed. What will you do when none of those men pan out as being the antichrist? What will that say about your calculations and your codes?

        I maintain that, whoever comes and makes that seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple on the temple mount, he’s the one. The establishing of that seven year covenant is the starting point.

  37. DmCal52 who is quite S…………..d!!

    DmCal 52 who does not list the location of the scripture says:

    “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”

    ANTICHRIST OBAMA’S PICTURE BEFORE DEADLY WOUND BY A SWORD …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0cy21pGd0o

    ANTICHRIST OBAMA’S PICTURE BEFORE DEADLY WOUND BY A SWORD … The ANTICHRIST Obama Rises From The Mortal HEAD WOUND … The Truth Behind Obama’s Head Scar …

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed – The Politics Forums

    thepoliticsforums.com/threads/29608-Obama-Head-Scars-Revealed

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed … The Antichrist suffers from a fatal head-wound says the … finest details of Obama’s scar-tissue and defects. Obama-Antichrist-Mocks …

    What’s That Scar On Obama’s Head? | Fellowship of the Minds

    https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2011/04/08/what-are-those-scars

    What’s That Scar On Obama’s Head … From these pics of three individuals who have scars on their skull which resemble Obama’s scar, … and his deadly wound …

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed In New Video. Gov Website …

    beforeitsnews.com/obama-birthplace-controversy/2015/02/obama-head…

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed In New Video. Gov Website Delivers Clear Picture: Obama’s Scarred … The Antichrist suffers from a fatal head-wound says …

    Where Did Obama Get Those Nasty Head Scars? : Truth …

    truthfrequencyradio.com/where-did-obama-get-those-nasty-head-scars

    Where Did Obama Get Those Nasty Head Scars? Truth Frequency Radio Aug 13, … One of the characteristics is his “fatal head-wound” says the Bible. Obama’s skull …

    The Truth Behind Obama’s Head Scar Conspiracy FINALLY …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy0VvIUi27A

    Finally the Mystery behind Obama’s head scar conspiracy is revealed from the messenger of the Lord. … FINALLY! Barack Obama Is The Antichrist!

    BREAKING: Confirmed, Barack Hussein Obama is the ANTICHRIST!!!

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2045364/pg1

    3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, … Recall Obama’s healed head scar. … Barack Hussein Obama is the ANTICHRIST!!!

    Urgent! Obamas Mystery Scar to Head! – Five Doves Inc

    http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2011/j46.htm

    I just did some searching about Obama’s head scar and found … The fatal head-wound of the antichrist in the … 383/418/Urgent_Obamas_Mystery_Scar_to_Head.html …

    2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
    Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

    I will beat these 2 verses into your head until you know them backwards and forwards.

  38. Hello jardalkal,

    You are assigning some passive fulfillment of the fatal wound that the beast will receive. This fatal wound is something that the whole world will be see and will be in awe of. Obama’s scar or whatever it is, is not even known by the world. The meaning behind receiving a mortal or fatal wound, is that it is something that is not survivable, which when this antichrist does survive it, it will be for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth in support of his proclaiming to be God. Nothing of this nature has happened with Obama. You need to get out of YouTube and all of the web-sites, because you have Obama on the brain.

    I guarantee you that the antichrist is not Obama.

    • Dear DmCal52,
      I do not have Obama on the brain. If I get out of You-tube and Websites, then I get out of the Bible and all of life and what is going on around me.
      For 23 years, I worked 20 plus hour days 364 days per year. Now because of you tube and websites, I have a hobby called the Bible. My passion is Eschatology. I have over 5000 pages on it. One thousand is at these two blogsites. Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com and Jardalkalataol.blogspot.com. I am a Bible researcher and a soon to be preacher. My ministry begins when chaos breaks out in the area I live in. At that time, the church goes underground in America.
      I was appointed by God himself back in 1981 through a God-dream. My dreams began in 1967 (a prophetic year and a year of Jubilee) and I have had over 40 plus dreams fulfilled. The next one is a global earthquake and should take place November 16th to 18th of 2016 or Passover Month or Tishrei of 2017.
      John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook.

      By the way, I guarantee you that you are a scoffer.

  39. Jardalkal,

    I am also one who studies scripture and was drawn to the study of end-time events from the beginning. You say that you are one who studies end-time events, which means that you should know the characteristics of the antichrist, that man of lawlessness, which is why I have been contending with you regarding Obama. You should know better than to be guessing at dates. And you should also know that the establishing of that seven year covenant is the primary way of identifying the revealing of the antichrist. Remember Walter Camping and all the rest of the time setters before him.

    You said:
    “I was appointed by God himself back in 1981 through a God-dream. My dreams began in 1967 (a prophetic year and a year of Jubilee) and I have had over 40 plus dreams fulfilled. The next one is a global earthquake and should take place November 16th to 18th of 2016 or Passover Month or Tishrei of 2017.
    John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook.

    By the way, I guarantee you that you are a scoffer.”

    So, when that global earthquake that you just said was a dream from God, does not take place at the time you specified, you know that would make you a false prophet, right? You are claiming something given to you by God and you have specified a time. The way that Israel was to tell if someone was a false prophet or not, was whether or not their prophesies were fulfilled.

    I am not a scoffer, but one who is zealous for the truth and accuracy of the word of God. In these last days there are many who claim to be in Christ, but have abandoned the truth. It is not just a matter of discerning right from wrong, but right from almost right. YouTube and the internet is not the place to be getting your scriptural information from. My advice would be to stick with scripture.

    • DmCal52,
      1656 2270, 2348/9 BCE 2435BC מבּוּל mabbûl; Flood Methuselah dies year of flood 969 years old; Noah 600 years old *

      Yom Kippur is when Nibiru in 2016 will affect the earth, with a global earthquake, fulfilled as in Revelation 6:12-17, as well as other OT scriptures. This global earthquake is actually an axial polar shift (the only explanation for why the stars will roll up as a scroll). This exact same event happened the day that the Great Deluge began, 3,600 years ago, when Nibiru passed through our solar system… which was also Yom Kippur, but it had not been decreed as such by YVWH yet, at the Exodus, when Moses was translated to Heaven to be with YVWH for the 40 days… remember, Moses’ face was so bright that the Israelites asked him to cover it, when he came back from Mount Sinai.

      In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Bereshit, Genesis 7:11 (1649 years from the fall – Book of Jubilees, Paradise and the Fall iii: 17); Nibiru encounter “The Destroyer”. Isa 24:1, 19-20. Some accounts and teachers say this was at Passover and others say this was in October/November. Pole Shift. It caused a 23 degree tilt. The tetonic plates separated.
      Gen 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. Aviv 17th 2347 (Wednesday–Day after First fruits.) http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/Aviv17.html

      This tidbit of information, I came across in 2015. At that time, my line of thought was that the Day of the Lord would begin on Yom Kippur (Joel 2:15=Lev. 23:27-34). And it still follows that line of reasoning.
      Less than a week ago, somebody on the internet made the connection that the Day of the Lord can begin on the DAY that the Flood began using Daniel’s timeline of 1335 days. So I am looking into it as a possibility and so far 1947+62 shavuots=2009+1260 days +1335 days = Nov. 16-18, 2016 is the only one that fits it so far. The timeline for 2017 puts us to Kislev 20th, December 8, 2017. Timeline start 1948+62 Shavuots = 2010 7th Biblical Month event +1290 days to Passover event in Israel with a Trumpet blast out of the East on Passover day +1335 days does not fit even though 1260 days does fit the end day of Day of Trumpet sign in the Sun, Moon, and Stars.

    • DmCal52,

      Wh am I a Biblical Date Setter.
      1) God is the Biggest Date Setter of all time.

      2) Since you do not understand Day and Hour no man knoweth because that is the ones Christians use the most to say that we should not date set by, here is that information.

      Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away (Isa. 65:17, Rev. 21:1), but my words shall not pass away. (Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33; Mt 5:18)

      Hebrew Idiom
      An idiom is an expression, a term, or a phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts, but refers instead to a figurative meaning that is known only through the conventional use of a specific language.
      http://www.ajewishbeliever.com/2012/07/hebrew-idioms.html

      Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Mk 13:32; Ac 1:6,7)
      When the days of the Messiah approach, even children will be able to discover secrets of wisdom, and through them be able to calculate the time of the end; then it will be revealed to all.’ ” (Zohar 1:117b-118a).
      Mk 13 note: In the Son’s humanity, Jesus did not know when the day or hour would be. During this time on earth, Yeshua voluntary waived some of His divine perogatives according to Ryrie Study Bible.
      1) This verse may refer to the return of His second coming in Matthew 24:31. If you notice the year is not mentioned, the season is not mentioned, the month is not mentioned. The year is a year of Jubilee. The next one is in 2017 (6003), then 2067 (6053), then 2117 (6103). The season is in the Fall based on Lev. 23:24ff. The month according to the Julian calendar is Tishrei or the seventh month biblically again based on Leviticus 23. The first of the month is called Rosh Codesh and it begins on the sliver of the new moon. In September of 2017, for example, it is on the 23rd or 24th. Since these days are shortened, then we have to add 2-3 days more. Just by guessing, we don’t know the day of the day. All we know is that it will be on the first sliver of the new moon in any given September. See notes Matt 24:31.
      Some people claim that Jesus was speaking only to people living in the first century of not knowing the day or hour, not to people living today.

      2) There is another interpretation to this verse and that refers to the end of the earth because of Matt 24:35 which Matt 24:36 follows. This month is Tishrei which is the 7th Biblical month in September/October which is tied to Leviticus 23:24ff which is called the Day of Trumpet. According to Torahcalendar.com, this will be in the year 3015. The earth began in the 7th month in 3986 BC according to Torahcalendar.com so it is fitting that it will end in the same month. The 7th month was the first month until 1441 or 1446 BC when the Exodus occurred in Exodus 12. Beginning in that year Abib/Nisan became the first month and it is in the spring in March/April and it begins on the first sliver of the new moon.

      3) Day and hour refers to the Day of Atonement for it is 25 hours long (i.e. one day plus one hour). Matthew 24:28

      4) Pentecost is also known as the Day and hour no man knoweth. Matth 24:32; Psalm 90:10

      5) Passover is day and hour no man knoweth. Matthew 24:15 1260 days to 1290 days this side of Day of Atonement Armageddon War.

      6) Because we by this time period have gone through the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, there may not be electricity, the sun will be 1/3rd gone, the moon, and stars will be 1/3rd gone, we have had 3 days of darkness, so Yeshua shall come as a thief in the night.
      According to the Jewish wedding, Yeshua\Jesus is in Heaven building His house while the bride on earth is preparing herself for the wedding. When the house is ready for the bride, the groom comes for her. (Matt 25:1-13). This will be on the Day of Trumpet (Lev 23:24). The story in Matt 25:1-13 clearly teaches watchfulness (v. 13); i.e., only those who are prepared for His coming will enter the kingdom.
      Leviticus 23 is connected to Leviticus 25:9-10 (Jubilee year) and especially verses 20-23. 2016-2017 is the 120th Jubilee, the 70th Jubilee, the 50th Jubilee year, and the 4oth Jubilee year of Jesus’s death.

      • DmCal52,

        Why does John be a date setter following God’s Timeline for 2017.
        Here is another 20 plus pages.

        Covenant cycle Matt 1:17 The Messiah came, and the promise was fulfilled in the forty-second generation from Abraham.
        There is 4000 years from Creation to Yeshua but only 2000 from Abraham to Yeshua. Hypothesis is there 14 generations x2 between first and second coming if a generation is 70 or 80 according to Ps 90:10. 70 generation x 14= 980 years. 80 generation x 14 is 1120 years. So if we use 2×980=1960 +70 (Temple destruction)=2030. 29 ce (Death of Christ) +1960=1989+33=2022. 27 CE (Ministry Start of Yeshua)+1960+33 (Death of Yeshua age)=2019. 27 CE+1960=1987. 1987 CE Sabbath year (Shmita שמיטה). 27 CE +1960+30 (Age of Yeshua at the start of His ministry) = 2017.
        http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt13.html; Perry Stone on Sid Roth Tsunamis, Blood Moons and End of Times beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2015/05/blood-moons-and-end-time-prophecy-perry-stone-with-sid-roth-radio-interview-2468942.html; bibletime.com/theory/generation

        2017 shows up again. How odd.
        Battle of Jerusalem 1917 (Year of Jubilee)+100 generation=2017 (Year of Jubilee); 1947 Proclamation for Israel +70 generation=2017; Sixth Day War (Year of Jubilee) +50 generation=2017 (Year of Jubilee); 1947 BC (Abraham’s Birth)+2017=70 CE (Destruction of the Temple)+1947 (Abraham’s Birth/Proclamation of Israel)=2017.
        1517 CE Ottomon Turks capture Jerusalem; the Ottoman Empire exists for 400 more years until 1917.Ottoman During the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566) the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem were rebuilt. Population of the Jewish community in Jerusalem increased. Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg church on October 31,1517 which begins the German Protestant Reformation. 1517+400 generation=1917+100 generation = 2017 100 years is the limit of a generation found in the Bible (as defined by Abraham’s 4 generations of a total of 400 years (400 years divided by 4 generations = 100).
        What is so significant is that there is a high probability that this is the Second Coming and Armageddon because it fits the criteria of Lev. 25:8-10.
        More about 1948 and 1967.
        God’s plan was not thwarted when a 2520-Year Prophecy was fulfilled in May of 1948 or when another 2520-Year cycle was fulfilled in June of 1967. Presently, we are living at the very end of a 2520-Week, Biblical cycle. This cycle began the day Israel recaptured the city of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967 and culminates on September 23, 2015, which is The Day of Atonement, and even more incredibly, The Day of Jubilee. What are the mathematical odds of a Biblical cycle beginning and ending on such historic and significant days in both Israel’s modern history and ancient calendar? Coincidence is not a kosher word.
        There is another Biblical prophecy that will also be fulfilled, it relates to a period of time called the “time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). It’s a period of time as the Babylonian Talmud says, “In the seven-year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come…at the conclusion of the septennate (a period of seven years), the Son of David will come.” (Sanhedrin, 97a p.654)
        Or as Raphael Patai (Jewish historian who received his doctorate in Semitic Languages from the University of Budapest and University of Breslau) said, “The idea became entrenched that the coming of the Messiah will be preceded by greatly increased suffering…This will last for seven years. And then, unexpectedly, the Messiah will come. (The Messiah Texts, pp 95-96)
        This seven-year period is based upon God’s calendar (a 360-day year), and it can be more precisely labeled the 2520-Day Period. We have witnessed the 2520-Year prophecies fulfilled twice. The 2520-Week prophecy culminates this September 23, 2015. Is the period of 2520-Days next?
        Learn more of God’s calendar, for He is the “Perfect Numberer” (Daniel 8:13 -“Palmoni”) at http://www.twenty5twenty.net Shalom, Shalem…only with “The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6-7)
        2015-2017 is the 50th Jubilee, 70th Jubilee, and 120th Jubilee. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC8vSm65skk

        • DmCAL52,

          More on 2017

          What do these years have in common? Abraham’s birth (1947 BCE) +2017 years = 70 CE Destruction of the Temple; Matt 24:1-2) + 1947 years = 2017.
          6th day war 1967+50 years = 2017. Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 2017. Israel became a nation in 1948 1 to 2 days prior to Pentecost (Matt 24:32; Psalm 90:10) but the proclamation went out in 1947+70 years = 2017. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 1517-1917, 1917-1967, 1967-2017 The Messiah comes and Armageddon. Woman clothed with the Sun in 2017 (Day of Trumpet with Virgo and Leo). Giza Pyramid Lineup of 2017 (Day of Trumpet). August 21 (4th day event) Solar Eclipse over North America (Propheciesoftheendtimes.com) in 2017. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 70, 80, 100, and 120 line up to significant events with Israel.
          Miracle of the Sun (Oct. 13th, 1917) +100 years = 2017. (It was on the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles). Oct. 13th, 2016 is Day of Atonement and it ends on Day of Atonement 2017 with Armageddon. Could it be that the Day of the Lord begins on the Day of Atonement (Joel 2:14 or 15=Lev 23:27-34) with a global earthquake.

          4 views of September 23, 2017
          1) End of Humanity and Armageddon on the Day of Atonement (Rev 14:20ff; Rev 15 Day of Atonement Typeology; Rev 16/19 Armageddon)
          2) Beginning of the Day of the Lord which is a one year event according to Isaiah and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments and ends on the Day of Atonement with Armageddon.
          3) Mid point of the 7 year tribulation.
          4) Beginning of the 7 year Tribulation
          The problem I have with numbers 3 and 4 is that if the beginning heavenly sign begins in the 7th month such as 5 planets lining up in a row on the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles in 2010, then the end sign 7 years later should be on the Day of Trumpet according to Revelation 12:1 and 11 –7th Trumpet and the only one between 2017 and 2100 + is the one on Sept. 23rd, 2017.

          Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com
          The above comments was only a partial of Feast Dates Introduction.

  40. Chargefox,
    I found out at 56 that I am autistic. I have always been a loaner all my life. I never was a person for groups shuch as churches. When I visit a church, I always stay in the outer ring. Jardalkal@aol.com for the full story. John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook for the dream fulfilled portion.

  41. DmCal52,

    You should know better than to be guessing at dates

    Why does John love to be a date setter?
    Gen 1:14; Lk 21:25-26
    1) Noah’s Ark landed on Mount Ararat prior to Passover but the door of the ARK was opened on the day of PASSOVER.
    2) Jesus was conceived on DEc 15th, 4 BCE on a SABBATH on the first DAY of Chanukkah.
    3) Jesus was born on the Day of ATONEMENT or the first annual SABBATH of Feast of Tabernacles. Circumcised on the 8TH DAY of Feast of Tabernacles.
    4) Jesus baptized on a SABBTH in January or on the DAY of ATONEMENT according to a sign in the Sun, Moon, and Stars on that DAY of ATONEMENT.
    5) Jesus entered Jerusalem on a SABBATH on a beast.
    6) Jesus died on PASSOVER
    7) Jesus buried at the beginning of FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD
    8) Jesus rose on FEAST of FIRST FRUITS

    PENTECOST events

    King David was born and died on Pentecost. According to rabbinic tradition, Enoch was born and was raptured on Pentecost. The Church was born on Pentecost (Acts 2). Pentecost is known as “the festival without a date”—no man knows the day or hour! Jews believe that the “fruit of the trees” is judged on Pentecost. Hmm. The Judgment Seat of Christ? The Jews believe that on Pentecost the heavens open for a brief instant and that God answers prayer—perhaps in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! The Dispensation of Law occured on Pentecost. The Noahic Covenant was given on Pentecost. Ruth, a Gentile bride, was chosen by Boaz, a type of Christ, on PENTECOST, bringing this Gentile bride into the Messianic lineage! Pentecost is the day the Jews as they say, stay up all night to “decorate the bride!” Why?
    God married mankind on the first Pentecost in 1441 or 1446 BCE in a Shemitah year.
    1948 Israel became a nation on the Friday before Pentecost Sunday.
    2014 Cross/Staff in the corona of the Sun

    Day of Trumpet—The Rapture which can occur either on DAY of TRUMPET, Day of Atonement, PASSOVER, or Pentecost.

    Day of Atonement Marriage of Groom to the Bride and Armageddon.

    FEAST of TABERNACLES–First Annual Sabbath of Feast of Tabernacles is when the Messianic Kingdom begins.

    AS you notice DmCal 52, God follows HIS timeline of Leviticus 23 and you follow your GREGORIAN timeline of whenever it happens, it will happen which the lie si that you follow the Christian lie of Immenency of Christ lie.

    • Why John follows Leviticus 23 timeline with signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars.

      Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs (Solar and Lunar Eclises; Cross in the corona of the sun in 2014 on Pentecost; blood moon tetrads, lightning coming from the Sun on Dec. 23 (Rosh Chodesh 10); March 20th Solar Eclipse on Abib 1; Lunar Eclipse on April 4th, 2015 =Joel 2:31), and for seasons (Lev. 23; Ps 104:19; I Thess 5:1) and for days ((Sabbaths, Rosh Chodesh (first sliver of the new moon), 7th day of Feast of Tabernacles, 4th day of the week), and years (Lev. 25 Shemitah and Jubilee years).
      Seasons of Lev. 23 is also called congregations and solemn assembly.
      Lets look at some heavenly events that have happened since 1995. Source: Feast Dates and Second Coming part 2.
      Now remember that the birth pains get stronger (increase) as the time of the birth approaches so watch for the increase.
      1) Comet Hale-bopp Passover 1997 Longest running comet 19 months.
      2) 2010 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles. 5 planets lined up in a row.
      3) 2011 Day of Trumpet Comet Elenin breaks up in Leo causing a Revelation 12:1-2 event in September on the first sliver of the new moon.
      4) 2013 Chanukkah/Thanksgiving Comet Ison perihelion (closest approach to the sun). The path through the constellations says Yeshua/Jesus is coming now.
      5)2014 Blood Moon Tetrads near Passover and Feast of Tabernacles; Solar Eclipse; Cross in the Corona of the Sun on Rabbinic Pentecost; Lighting from the Sun on Dec. 23 (Rosh Chodesh 10) on the first sliver of the new moon.
      6) 2015 Solar Eclipse on Abib 1/Nisan 1 Rosh Chodesh 1; Red blood moon on April 4th (Passover); June30/July1 Venus/Jupiter conjunction in Leo/christmas Star; August 17 Nibiru between Earth and Sun supposedly on Rosh Chodesh 6 and we are in its wake on Sept 26 on a Sabbath; Day of Trumpet Event in Israel with a double solar eclipse seen in Heaven; Day of Atonement with Obama becoming the Antichrist and the Pope becoming the False Prophet and the ushering in of the One World Religion and NWO (Rev 13 Beast System with Islam) with a blood moon on Feast of Tabernacles first annual Sabbath. Unscheduled Blood Moon over Galilee Sea. October 30th Sabbath

      2016) There has been 20-24 events so far on HIS days of: 4th day events, Sabbaths, Full Moons, New Moons, 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles and 9th Month and 24th day events. This years events would fill up over 60 pages of information.

      • you are spamming my site. the comment list has nothing but you there.

        please slow down.

        notice no one else is coming here….that is because you are overloading the site with you comments

  42. Hi dmcal52,

    Thank you for your reply.
    Before addressing some of the particulars of your response, allow me to start with Amos 3:7.

    “Surely the Lord God WILL DO NOTHING but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.”
    (Note: Prophets above would also include Apostle’s and Disciple’s.)

    Now, though the meaning of that text appears to be self-evident, many don’t fully comprehend its depth and scope.
    What Amos 3:7. is stating is that “God’s Word” is entirely complete in itself.
    That from Genesis through to and including Revelation, everything regarding God’s Will and Plan for man has been expressed and contained within scripture. There is absolutely nothing left out, and everything in its entirety, down to the smallest of details, has been recorded within His Word.

    Though the above would be obviously be accurate, simply by what God states within the verse itself, how “in being true” are we able to hold the vastness of all that the above implies, “in one solitary hand?”

    The answer is; Because “God in His Glory is incomprehensibly proficient!”

    What this means then is, that “passages of verses” are also at times “polysemantic” in that they are not only expressing one truth or narrative on the surface of the text, but that the text itself, actually consists of a “duality or multiplicity of meanings”, and can also be referencing completely different individuals, groups or scenarios, than what the text you may be reading is essentially expressing itself.

    This “fact” has already been demonstrated within the New Testament “countless times”, where Jesus, Apostle’s and Disciple’s “cull out verses” from the Old Testament text, that were completely applicable to the narrative in which they were utilized initially, and reapply “these exact same verses” to express and reveal a new, and previously unrealized Biblical Truth.

    As well, this “definition” of Amos 3:7., would be supported by Hosea 12:10., where God says that He has also provided us with “similitudes or examples”, which only further confirms the above aspect of “duality and multiplicity of meanings”.

    For just one illustration of this, I offer “Abraham and Isaac” within Genesis 22:1-19., (though being an actual historical account), it is also comprised of “duality of meaning” for we as followers of Jesus recognize these passages as being a “foreshadowing” of “God providing the sacrifice of Jesus”.

    So, in keeping Amos 3:7., and the above in mind, I’ll begin addressing your response in sequence.
    Unfortunately, by also “quoting you”, this reply will be rather lengthy.

    First you say;
    “I believe that you mistaken in your understanding regarding the letters to the churches. Though these were letters to each specific church, the information contained within them is for every believer and all churches throughout the entire church period. For at the end of each of the letters it says, “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

    My reply;
    “Though I don’t believe that I provided you with enough specificity in respects to the “letters to the churches” for you to determine what I may, or may not believe, I will say that “I AGREE that these letters contain information that is pertinent, for all believers throughout the entire church period.”

    For example, the promise of Jesus giving the overcomer a white stone with a new name written on it found in the letter to the church of Pergamum, is also a promise to the other six types of churches and every overcoming believer throughout the entire church period. All of the promises to the overcomer can be applied to every believer throughout the entire church period. That said, the promise to those who endure patiently to keep them out of the hour of trial, is not only to the overcomers of the church of Philadelphia, but to all believers throughout the entire church period who endure patiently.

    My reply;
    “I would just like for you to pay attention to what you have written above, particularly the aspect of each and every reward, being dependant upon whether Jesus would determine, (as Judge) if an individual was an “Overcomer” or not.”

    Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial. Any believer who belonged to the actual church of Laodicea, as well as believers throughout the entire church period that fit that church type and who overcome, will also be kept from that hour of trial. Those letters to the seven churches are also to all churches and individual believers throughout the entire church period.

    My reply;
    “What Biblical evidence can you provide to substantiate that “Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true?”
    (Please see my next reply.)

    Likewise, whatever the promise is for the overcomer, it is the opposite for those who do not overcome. Example: He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death vs. He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. The bottom line is that, any believer who is an overcomer, regardless of church type, will receive the promises given to each church.”

    My reply;
    “Again, notice how much “rewards” are dependant upon whether Jesus determines an individual to be an “Overcomer” or not.
    Overcomers will receive rewards, and those that won’t be determined to be Overcomers, will not.
    In “that” we agree.

    Now though YOU say above, “Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial” that’s NOT what JESUS says!

    Let’s examine those “letters to the Churches” with a little more scrutiny.

    In the letter to the Church of Ephesus, JESUS says the following warning in 2:4,5., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.”

    This warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.
    He of course is, “our First Love”.
    I will leave it up to you to interpret what this is saying, because it is not relevant to the point that I’m wishing to make at this time.

    In the letter to the Church of Smyrna, JESUS offers a different type of warning in 2:10.;
    “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.
    We must all be faithful and be willing to die for Jesus, no matter when or where.

    In the letter to the Church of Pergamos, JESUS says the following warning in 2:14-16., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. REPENT; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    In the letter to the Church of Thyatira, JESUS says the following warning in 2:20-22., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they REPENT of their deeds.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    In the letter to the Church of Sardis, JESUS says the following warning in 3:1-3, where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    So within Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira and Sardis we have JESUS saying that some individuals aren’t conducting themselves correctly and need to repent.
    Where if they didn’t change their ways and REPENT, He WOULDN’T determine or consider them to be “Overcomers”.

    Yet at the same time, Jesus praises other individuals, within 2:2,3., (Ephesus), 2:9., (Smyrna), 2:13., (Pergamos), 2:19. and 24,25., (Thyatira) & 3:4. (Sardis).
    Where, if they continued in their praise worthy conduct He WOULD determine and consider them to be “Overcomers”.
    So, by what Jesus says, we have “those” that are approved of by Him and those that still need to repent.
    Those that would be determined to be Overcomers and those that wouldn’t.

    Now we come to the Church of Philadelphia, and what JESUS SAYS regarding this Church.
    NOT ONCE is there any mention for the need to REPENT to any individual. Jesus praises each and every member of this particular Church.
    Jesus has set before each member of this Church the reward of an “open door”, because each and every member has kept His word, and not denied His name. Jesus utilizes the word “agapaō” when He refers to these individuals, (which is a far cry from “phileō”).

    Because He is so pleased with the conduct of these individuals and their demonstration of their faith, having kept the word of His patience, Jesus tells them that He will will “keep all of them from the hour or time of the temptation, (or testing)” which is to come upon the whole world as a trial. Another reward for just these members.

    Jesus tells them that He is coming shortly, and for them to “hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”
    This would mean that Jesus has already given each member a crown, and if they “hold fast” or “continue” in what they have already demonstrated to Him, then no man will deter Him from presenting that reward to them.

    The Church of Philadelphia is comprised solely of “beloved” Overcomers, with access to the “open door and escaping the Temptation and Trial.”

    Jesus will grant them the opportunity to eat from the tree of life, (Rev. 2:7.).
    They will receive the “crown of life” and will “not be harmed by the second death”. (Rev. 2:10,11.).

    Jesus will grant them the opportunity to eat of the “hidden manna” (the concealed and kept secret nourishment), and will give them a white stone with a new name written upon it which no man knows except for the one that receives it, (Rev. 2:17.).

    Jesus will give them “power over nations”, just as the Father has given that power to Him, and they shall rule together, and receive the morning star, (Rev 2:26-28.).

    The members of the Church of Philadelphia will walk with Jesus in white garments, being determined to be Overcomers, and Jesus Won’t “blot” out their name from the “book of life”, but will instead proclaim their name before Father God and His angels, (Rev. 3:4,5.).

    Jesus will make them pillars in God’s Temple, and He will write the Name of God upon them, as well as His new Name, and the Name of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12).

    Now we come to the Church of Laodicea, where JESUS SAYS, each and every member is the antithesis to the members of the Church of Philadelphia, and have NOT been determined as being “Overcomers”.

    Jesus says that because all of the members of this Church are neither hot or cold, He is going to spit them out of His mouth.

    Jesus says that all of the members of this Church are “wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked”.

    Jesus then advises them to “buy gold from Him, gold that has been purified by fire, (by Testing and Trial) then they will be rich, and will be able to buy white garments from Him, so they will not be ashamed of their nakedness, and be able to also buy ointment for their eyes so they will be able to see”.

    Jesus says that He REBUKES (corrects) and CHASTENS (disciplines) everyone that He loves, (again phileō rather than agapaō), and since the members of the Church of Philadelphia are NOT wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, and have therefore been spared from the “hour or time of the temptation”, one should be able to reasonably conclude, that since Jesus has Not determined these members of the Church of Laodicea as being Overcomers, but instead calls them wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, His correcting and discipline of fire, would consist of subjecting these individuals to the “hour or time of the temptation”, which in sequence as written, would be HIS SEALS.

    Do you understand why I started with the explanation of Amos 3:7.?

    1 Peter 4:17.;
    “For the time is come that JUDGEMENT MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it first BEGIN at US, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

    2 Timothy 4:1.;
    “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall JUDGE the quick and the dead at His APPEARING and his kingdom;”

    2 Timothy 4:8.;
    “Henceforth there is laid up for me a “crown of righteousness”, which the Lord, the righteous JUDGE, shall give me at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto ALL THEM also that love His APPEARING.”

    Above Peter says that the “JUDGEMENT” will begin first with the “CHURCH”, and Paul says, that Jesus will make this “JUDGEMENT” when HE APPEARS, which by 1 Corinthians 15:52., will all happen in a twinkling of an eye.

    If one takes into consideration the depth and scope of Amos 3:7., THAT GOD WILL DO NOTHING until He reveals His plans to His servants the prophets, or Apostle’s, then where is the above JUDGMENT recorded within scripture?

    If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, (the First Resurrection), then it must be recorded prior to that verse, and the only passages that could possibly fulfill that criteria are Revelation 2:1. through 3:22..

    Where if that is indeed the case, then those members of the Church of Philadelphia are as Jesus Says, the ONLY ONES that are allowed through that “open door” and everybody else is subjected to the “Hour of Testing or Temptation”.

    The above more or less addresses the rest of your last replies, so I’ll simply sign off here.
    And though I could provide you with a substantial amount of evidence that is foreshadowed within the Old Covenant regarding this, and “two resurrections” for those that believe in, and have faith in Jesus, (particularly what the “BUY” in Matthew 25:9,10. and Revelation 3:18. is signifying), I suspect that you would simply say that this is wrong too.

    We obviously both have faith and love Jesus, and we’ll just have to wait and see how this all unfolds.

  43. Hi dmcal52,

    What I was trying to accomplish in my last response above, was to demonstrate as to how God in His Glory is so incomprehensibly proficient, and how He utilizes “duality and multiplicity of meaning” within His Word.

    I had hoped by what I had provided above, that you would recognize, (by what JESUS SAYS within the “letters to the Church’s”, ) that there are “four” distinctly different Church’s.

    1) Smyrna is distinct in itself, in that it’s message would be directed to all Overcomers that Father God has chosen to demonstrate their faith, by being prepared and willing to die for Jesus as He had died for us. And this message is applicable to the past, present and future.

    2) Ephesus, Pergamos and Thyatira are comprised of both Overcomers and those that are NOT Overcomers.

    3) The Church of Philadelphia is comprised of ONLY Overcomers.

    4) The Church of Laodicea is comprised of those that are NOT Overcomers.

    In doing so I had also hoped, that by taking into consideration Amos 3:7. and the fact that “God cannot lie”, then the “judgment” of the Church’s must be recorded somewhere. And that since by Hosea 12:10., God says that He has provided us with “similitudes or examples”, (where the New Testament is composed by the very same Author), He is in no way obligated to us, to place that recording of “expressing what He is going to do through an Apostle” under the heading of “Judgment of the Church’s”, and that He could have expressed this “judgement” in a variety of different ways.

    I had also hoped, that by bringing up the aspect of “duality and multiplicity of meaning” in scripture, that this might assist in clarifying a distinction between the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus” and the “Wrath (or righteous judgement) of Father God, where verses such as….

    Romans 5:9,10.;
    “Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

    …. express the “duality and multiplicity of meaning” by the following;

    1) Like the Church of Philadelphia, being saved from the “Trial and Time of Testing” the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus” which He clearly says the He is going to perform to the Church of Laodicea in Revelation 3:19. (see Luke 21:36.)

    2) Also in having being saved from the above, they would likewise be saved from the “Wrath (or righteous judgement) of Father God.

    However, I’m not sure if I accomplished any of the above.

    So, in leaving that discussion by the wayside, I have a proposal or challenge for you, (or anybody else that might be reading this), regarding the depth and “how much” God utilizes “duality and multiplicity of meaning” within scripture.

    If you believe that Genesis 22:1-19., and “Abraham being willing to offer up Isaac” is also a symbolic foreshadowing of “God offering up Jesus as our sacrifice”, (which though we aren’t provide with any specificity regarding time frame, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least, if all of this didn’t happen on what would end up in the future as being Nissan 14th. or Passover), “who” do you think “Abram” is “symbolically foreshadowing” and what is the “duality of meaning” of Genesis 12:1, through 13:18.?

    • It’s sort of a shame that everybody is arguing with each other on the “End is Near” page, and that probably no one will read the below.
      It may just have some God inspired truth to it.
      Nevertheless I will post it any way’s.

      I don’t believe that any scripture that has being provided by God, is done so without intention or purpose.
      Above I had asked, ““who” do you think “Abram” is “symbolically foreshadowing” and what is the “duality of meaning” of Genesis 12:1, through 13:18.?”

      In taking into account both Amos 3:7., and Hosea 12:10., I believe that God is symbolically foreshadowing “ethnic Israel” through ABRAM within the chapters of Genesis 12 and 13.
      Now that isn’t as preposterous as it may sound, and to briefly support that last statement, I offer the following parallels.

      ABRAM left his homeland of Ur with all of his family and possessions and dwelt in Haran.

      JACOB, (Israel), left Beersheba with all of his family and possessions and dwelt in Egypt.

      ABRAM was called out of Haran by God, and Abram with all of his family and possessions, made the exodus to Canaan. Where during that journey Abram went to a mountain, and then built an altar, before continuing on his long journey.

      ISRAEL was called out of Egypt by God, and the family of Israel with all their possessions, made the exodus to Canaan. Where during that journey Israel went to a mountain and then built an altar, before continuing on their long journey.

      DUE to there being a famine in the land, ABRAM had moved to Egypt, where while there, Sarai was held in bondage by Pharaoh. Which because of that, God caused plagues to come upon Pharaoh and all of his house. Where when Sarai was released, and ABRAM and all of his family and servants left, they left very rich, with livestock, silver and gold.

      DUE to there being a famine in the land, ISRAEL had moved to Egypt, where while there, Israel was held in bondage by Pharaoh. Which because of that, God caused plagues to come upon Pharaoh and all of his house. Where when ISRAEL was released and left, they left very rich, with servants, livestock, silver and gold.

      ABRAM was told by YHVH, to walk through the length and breadth of the land, northward, southward, eastward, and westward, (FOUR).

      ISRAEL was told by YHVH to walk through the wilderness of the land, which lasted for FORTY years.

      Now if this is indeed, Father God utilizing ABRAM as an “example and a symbolic foreshadowing” of ethnic ISRAEL, then what “specifically” had to occur BEFORE Abram, (or ethnic Israel) could then be declared to be “RIGHTEOUS, or tsĕdaqah” before a Holy Father God?

      Here’s a hint, WHO appears next in chapter 14 as a symbolical foreshadowing, and what then would God be expressing regarding Righteousness?

      • gm

        Melchizedek king of Salem,who appeared after the defeat of Sodom and Gommorah

        S& G has to be defeated in our own lives for messiah to come

        see, i read the posts 🙂

        • Hi Marianne,

          Well at least someone there is ;-).

          Though this was more or less directed to dmcal52, with the hopes of demonstrating HOW “multifaceted in meaning” God’s Word can be, it is also for all who sincerely seek the Lord. As well, It testifies to the validity of the “definition” that I have provided above for Amos 3:7..

          On the surface of the surface of the text, the narrative within those chapters are an historical account that describe Abram’s first contact, and early relationship with Father God.

          Yet at the very same time, like “Abraham being willing to offer up Isaac” being a symbolic foreshadowing of “Father God offering His Son”, the text is polysemantic, where Father God is expressing man’s desperate necessity for Divine Intervention and for Jesus, to have any hope of attaining a state or position of “God’s RIGHTEOUSNESS” before HIM.

          “YES” the answer to my question is “Melchizedek”, or more specifically, WHO He symbolically represents.

          “Melchizedek King of Salem” is a symbolic foreshadowing of JESUS, (Psalm 110:1-4. & Hebrews 6:20.) and the “bread and wine” would also be a foreshadowing of, Matthew 26:26-28., Mark 14:22-25., Luke 22:17-20. and 1 Corinthians 11:24,25..

          However there is more that can be gleaned from these text.
          Let’s meticulously examine what is recorded within those chapters, (keeping in mind that though Abram is symbolically foreshadowing ethnic Israel here, he is instead completely obedient to the LORD YHVH.)

          So, from what we know from Scripture, Abram both “heard and obeyed” the LORD (YHVH), when he “left his country, his kindred, and his father’s house” and departed out of Haran, and headed into the land of Canaan, (Gen. 12:1-5.).

          Now, Abram would have obviously had “faith and believed” in what he was told to do by God, or he wouldn’t have “gathered everybody and all of his belongings” and left Haran in the first place, (Hebrews 11:8.).
          However, though Abram had faith and belief, and had obeyed the LORD (YHVH) by doing this, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          We also know from Scripture, that the LORD (YHVH) appeared to Abram while in Canaan and said to him the FIRST time, in Gen. 12:7., “Unto thy seed will I give this land.”
          And I’m sure that Abram had faith and belief in what God had said to him then also. Whether he fully understood what it meant, can’t be said “one way or the other” with any certainty. But Abram did build an altar.
          Yet though Abram had faith and belief and had built an altar to the LORD (YHVH), the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          In Gen. 12:8., Abram then moved again to a mountain, and built a second altar and called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH), who he had faith and belief in.
          And though Abram had faith and belief , and had built a SECOND altar, and “called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH)”, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          Then Abram went to Egypt. (Gen. 12:10-20.)

          In Gen. 13:4., when Abram had returned to the altar by the mountain from his journey into Egypt, Abram called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH) who he had faith and belief in again.

          And though Abram had faith and belief, and had “called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH) again”, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          After both Lot and Abram had decided to separate, and Lot had made his decision to move to the plain of Jordan, and Abram was now going to reside in Canaan, the LORD (YHVH) then expanded the SECOND time upon what He had said previously to Abram in Gen. 12:7., within Gen. 13:14-17., by saying;

          “Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”

          So again, (whether he fully understood what it all meant), Abram had faith and believed the LORD (YHVH) and also obeyed when he was told to “Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it”, for Abram “removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron”, where Abram, “built there an altar unto the LORD”, (Gen. 13:18.).

          Yet, though Abram had faith and believed the LORD (YHVH) and also obeyed, and had built a THIRD altar, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          Then we have “Melchizedek King of Salem” making His appearance upon the scene.
          Where clearly it was only after Abram had built the THIRD altar, (where “three” signifies, and references Jesus, and only after Jesus had made His appearance in the personage of Melchizedek King of Salem, and “blessed” Abram), that he could THEN be declared to be righteous.

          Now with Father God being so incomprehensibly proficient, we can only imagine as to how multifaceted all of the above may be in respects to symbolically referencing and foreshadowing other things, above and beyond that, of merely being an historical account.

          However, regarding ethnic Israel, (further to the above parallel’s that I had provided above in my previous post), we do have the following;

          When taking into account that Abram had built THREE altars, within the verses of 12:7,8., and 13:18., and correlate those with the THREE times that Israel was taken into bondage to Babylon,
          [i.e., The first took place in the 4th year of King Jehoiakim which was the 1st year of the of king Nebuchadnezzar,(Jeremiah 25:1. & 2 Chronicles 36:5-7.).
          The second took place in the 7th. and 8th. years of king Nebuchadnezzar, (Jeremiah 52:28. & 2 Kings 24:8-14.).
          And the third in the 19th year of king Nebuchadnezzar, (2 Kings 25:8-11.)]…..
          “Then Egypt for Abram, “represents and foreshadows” the captivity in Babylon for ethnic Israel.”
          Which all occurred before the first coming, (symbolically foreshadowed by Melchizedek) and the birth of God in the flesh as Jesus.

          The text would also do more than suggest, that though Abram fulfilled and obeyed each and every request (Commandment) from Father God, the righteousness that he would would have obtained by that fulfillment, was NOT sufficient enough to be declared “RIGHTEOUS” in God the Fathers eye’s.
          That Divine Intervention must be taken, and “God’s Righteousness” must be granted by being blessed by Melchizedek, or by Jesus at a later date.
          This therefore would mean, that though ethnic Israel was unable to fulfill the Mosaic Law, even if they could have, they would have still ended up falling short and “missing the mark” by presenting themselves before a Holy God with “their own righteousness” as opposed to “God’s Righteousness”.

          In respects to Jesus, the above also reveals something else;
          By taking into consideration that these altars that Abram built, also represent and foreshadow the Temples in Jerusalem, we find another significant detail.
          Having THREE altars, symbolically represents Solomon’s Temple, the rebuilding of the Temple after the captivity in Babylon, and the new construction by that of king Herod. Which also all occurred before the first coming , (symbolically foreshadowed by Melchizedek) and the birth of God in the flesh as Jesus.

          This then reveals something quite amazing, for it pin-points exactly, within a time span consisting of only 50 years, to when Jesus would actually be born as the Messiah, (see, Matthew 2:1., and John 2:20.) which would be one, of many other instances, where the scope and depth of Amos 3:7. is fulfilled.

          It was my hope that dmcal52 would become more open to the vastness of what God is comprised of, and realize that His Word is not as linear and as one dimensional as his current theology, (in my opinion), appears to be. That we probably only understand a small fraction of this vastness, (what God through His Spirit has chosen to reveal to anyone of us) and that this is why “opinions” vary so greatly.

          Any way’s, there is so much more that we are provided with in these chapters and the Book of Genesis, that it boggles my mind.
          There is so much more that I could provide regarding the above.

          Do you know if anyone here has been lead to research the significance that God holds to “First and Seconds” there?
          Not only in respects to Covenants, but to how they are significant in respects to individuals, or groups of individuals as well?

          How God’s blessings are provided or bestowed, (as a foreshadowing) far more upon those that are “Second Born” rather than upon the “Firstborn”.
          IE; Cain and Able, Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, Israel, (Exodus 4:22.) and Jesus (John 1:18., 3:16. & 18. and 1 John 4:9.) and “why” both “Abram to Abraham” and “Jacob to Israel” took place?

          For though God does say within Deuteronomy 21:15,16.;

          “If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:”

          He also says in Ecclesiastes 4:15.;

          “I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the SECOND child that shall stand up in his stead.”

          Though the above may appear to be contradictory and paradoxical, it isn’t when one takes into account that Deuteronomy 21:15,16., wouldn’t apply to those “firstborn” (like Esau, Malachi 1:3., Romans 9:13.) that “disqualify themselves” from that inheritance.

          It is when we are “born of the Spirit” that we become a “Second Born” as a “New Creation”.

          God Bless.

  44. Actually, I think that I’ll stay on tangent and comment on the “Two Resurrections” of believers in Jesus, that are foreshadowed in the Old Testament first.

    I have already been lead to do my own study on “firstborns and second born” and it is so complicated that it’s very difficult to articulate, but it is fascinating.

    Sorry about the mistake and repetition with “On the surface of the surface of the text” in the 2nd. paragraph above.

    God Bless

  45. P.S. Thank you for the above compliment, but though I may personally have an aptitude to look outside the “9 dots”, I don’t attribute anything that I may say to having any bearing on anything to do with my personal attributes.

    I don’t study scripture with the motivation to prove what I may or may not believe.
    Instead I ask God to show me what He wishes to reveal, where when He chooses to, more often than not, I am left dumfounded with the realization that what I now may understand was provided by a realm that has nothing whatsoever to do with my intellectual capacity.

    But it is then that I have to distinguish whether or not that “thought” is indeed God’s truth, by seeing if a contradiction to that “thought” presents itself within His Word. If I find one, then it was simply a carnal idea.
    If I can’t, then I hold it as a truth until it can been proven otherwise through scripture.

    Where I see many problems arise, is not because of our “desire” to seek God’s truth, but in our “nature” and how we seek that truth.

    To a certain extent, the Holy Spirit is limited by what we choose to believe.
    Since we all possess the “knowledge of good and evil” we are in essence, like gods, (Genesis 3:5., 3:22., Psalms 82:6. & John 10:34,35.).

    However in being flesh, we don’t have the capacity to possess the “knowledge of good and evil”, and remain innocent or HOLY like God, because Father God is Spirit, (John 4:24.).

    And because by nature, “our” flesh “fights against” the Spirit, what we happen to believe as gods, can then impede the Spirit from providing revelation in respects to God’s truth.
    (see Galatians 5:17., where what has been translated into the English “lusteth or lusts” is derived from the Greek “ἐπιθυμεῖ κατὰ”, transliterated as “epithymeō kata” and can simply be defined as “sets its desire against”.)

    Therefore, though an individual may believe what is in actuality an error in interpretation, if they have committed that belief to be a truth within their heart and mind, that conviction in their flesh, obstructs the opportunity for the Spirit to correct that error.

    Likewise, if someone doesn’t believe in their heart or mind, that scripture goes far beyond what they can understand on the surface of the text, and instead only believes what they can understand solely on a literal and intellectual level, they simply interpret the majority of scripture carnally, and aren’t receptive to any other potential spiritual possibilities.

    Though they may indeed love Jesus, if they have placed the totality of what God is comprised of, within the parameters of what their personal level of comprehension and beliefs consist of, (which then grieves and quenches the Spirit), then they have literally placed God within the confines of their own limited and inadequate box, and have in essence, become their own stumblingstone in respects to receiving revelation from the Spirit.
    We are finite, God isn’t, and therefore neither is His Living Supernatural Word.

    Nevertheless, “Thank You”.

    I will try to compile the foreshadowing of the “two resurrections” as concisely as possible, and post it here at a later date.

    • ok that is fine. no opinion has to be presented as “fact”

      we are in a lifelong process of having things revealed to us, and we seek to grow and understand as we go

      this whole blog is “my opinion” as I think through different concepts presented by the Word.

      there are times I change my opinion as time goes on…

      it is all part of the seeking process, so even if there is error, it is still good 🙂

  46. Hi Marianne,

    After receiving your last reply, would you mind clarifying something for me?
    I would agree that “we are in a lifelong process of having things revealed to us, and we seek to grow and understand as we go”.

    And I hope that you are also saying, “that opinions or thoughts” that are presented should be “heard and considered”, (Proverbs 18:3., Acts 17:11.), and then by being Berean’s, we are to “prove and test” these “thoughts or opinions” through scripture, (1 Thessalonians 5:21.) to determine whether they are “error” or “truth”. And that, it is the “hope and objective” of this site, to establish the “difference” between the two.

    If the above is another way of expressing what you were saying….. then I would like to present a “fact”, in which you as a Berean can then verify .

    (It’s amusing, because I was going concentrate on providing the foreshadowing information recorded within the Old Testament, regarding the “two resurrections” for those that have faith and belief in Jesus, but apparently the following is to be provided first.)

    Previously above I had mentioned that God had led me to do a study on “primogeniture”.
    Though I was in the process of conducting research on an entirely different topic at the time, in becoming aware over the years as how to everything is so interconnected, and while I had no idea as to what it would reveal, I followed the direction of the silently whispered voice.

    This study not only provided further information that was germane to my initial topic, but it also provided me with a far greater understanding as to “why and how” God’s Word is composed as it is.

    Any way’s, while looking over your exhaustive menu for anything that was relevant to the topic of “first and second’s”, I came across a page with the heading, “Why Mohammed was not the Comforter Promised by Jesus”, where I believe, (though I suspect that it would have proved to be quite contentious) a better question to address the above would have been, “Is Allah the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”.

    Consider the following;
    During the process of that study I was directed to do, it of course took me back to the “multifaceted meanings” of what God had Moses scribe in the very beginning, as per Isaiah 46:9,10.
    And though I am more than willing to provide supplementary Biblical evidence to verify the following in more detail at a later date, I will simply present the proceeding to be considered as “fact”.

    As a “similitude and example”, (if Genesis 2:23,24., is understood in the context by what is expressed by Paul in Ephesians 5:25-33.) then “Adam was a “type” of Messiah” and a “foreshadowing” of Father God providing His Son, to take upon Himself the “sins that were born by others”.

    (Though there are even more meanings that are associated to the following;)
    As a “similitude and example”, “Cain” symbolically represents ethnic Israel, (providing a sacrifice that was not sufficient and therefore not received) and “Able” symbolically represents “Jesus” (providing a sacrifice that was sufficient and therefore was received) and as well, “Seth” symbolically represents “Jesus” when He returns, and it is all a “foreshadowing” of Father God providing His Son.

    As a “similitude and example”, “Abram” (as explained previously above) also symbolically represents ethnic Israel, where “Melchizedek King of Salem”, symbolically represents “Jesus” and Father God providing His Son.

    As a “similitude and example”, “Abraham” is a “type” of God the Father, and “Isaac” is a “type” of “Jesus” and Genesis 22:1-19., is a foreshadowing of Father God providing His Son.

    Then there was Jacob, Joseph, and Moses, who all in their own right as individuals, symbolically represent and foreshadow a “type” of Messiah and Father God providing His Son.
    Not to mention Joshua, and the plethora of others that followed, that foreshadow a “type” of Messiah and Father God providing His Son.
    Then there is “Passover”etc., etc., and the numerous other symbolic events that foreshadow Father God providing His Son.

    So, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, has provided more than ample evidence that He will indeed provide man with His Son.

    What does “Allah” say in the Qur’an?

    Surah 4:171.;
    “O People of the Scripture! (referring to Christian’s.)
    Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth.
    The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him.
    So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah.
    Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He SHOULD HAVE A SON.
    His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.”

    Surah 17:111.;
    “Say: “Praise be to Allah, WHO BEGETS NO SON, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!” (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!”
    Say: “Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”

    Surah 19:88-92.;
    “THEY SAY: (referring to Christian’s and the “people of the book”)
    “(Allah) Most Gracious has BEGOTTEN A SON!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
    At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, THAT THEY SHOULD INVOKE A SON for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He SHOULD BEGET A SON.”

    And what does John say in 2 John 1:7.?
    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

    The aspect of Jesus being born is not denied by Allah, (he even refers to Him as being the Messiah (Annointed One) himself in surah 4:171).
    However, what John is referring to specifically regarding “Jesus coming in the flesh”, can be understood with more clarity by what John records elsewhere.
    John 1:1. That Jesus WAS and IS God.
    John 1:18., 3:16., 3:18., and 1 John 4:9. That Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Therefore the question of “Why Mohammed was not the Comforter Promised by Jesus” is answered by the “fact” that by Allah stating that he never had a son, he is confessing that he is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but a counterfeit imposter.

    • GM

      I agree with your points

      Islam thinks in the flesh, so assumes god would have to use a wife, have sex, and produce a son.

      this is proof enough that Islam cannot be a religion of spirit, but of flesh only, and they cannot imagine a “son” that is spirit like the “father”

      the god of abraham is spirit not flesh

      this to me is actually a different topic than the one on muhammed

      since Jesus also called himself the son of God, the muslims would have to consider Jesus a liar, and not worthy to be called a prophet.

      also another analogy of ethnic/ messiah is in Isaiah

      chapters 40+ call Israel the servant, but it seems to fail

      chapters 50+ describe a perfect servant, who succeeds where Israel fails

      • Hi Marianne,

        Yes, I am aware of all of the chapters in Isaiah regarding the “servant”, (ethnic Israel) and “Servant”, (Jesus) and the respective failure and Victory.

        Unless an individual is being “called” by Father God, those of ethnic Israel (being “firstborn” (Exodus 4:22.) and not being born of the Spirit, or “second born” no matter what their ethnicity) are unable to differentiate between the two, and take the word “servant” in both instances, as a term being solely associated to them as a people.

        However, as I said above, Father God has foreshadowed this millennia upon millennia ago with Cain, as He also does again with another figure.

        Tell me, you believe and understand that “Abraham” was a “type” of “God the Father” within Genesis 22:1-19. – correct?
        And that “Isaac” was a “type” of “Jesus” within those same passages – right?

        It’s not merely coincidence that in speaking to Abraham, Father God utilizes the Hebrew verb “אָהַב”, transliterated as “’ahab” and meaning “Love” for the very first time in scripture when referring to Isaac in Genesis 22:2..

        Nor is it coincidence that in God the Fathers eyes, (though “Ishmael” was “firstborn”), “Isaac” was considered to be the only “true and legitimate son”, being the Son that He had promised, and being the very fulfillment of His Word, where He had sworn a “Second” Oath by Himself. (Genesis 22:15-18. & Hebrews 6:13-20.)

        Genesis 22:2.;
        “And He said, Take now thy son, “thine only” son Isaac, whom thou “lovest”, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”

        (“thine only son” regarding Isaac, is repeated within Genesis 22:12. & 16., for a total of three times, and is therefore referencing Jesus and Divine Intervention.)

        “Thine Only” above, being derived from the Hebrew adjective “יְחִֽידְךָ֤”, transliterated as, “yachiyd”, and defined as “only, only one, solitary, one, unique, only begotten… Son”.

        And you believe that thematically, the recorded verses of Genesis 22:1-19., are an amazing symbolic foreshadowing of what was to occur years later, as well – right?

        With the mention of “third day”, (Gen.22:4.), Abraham stating, that God Himself would provide the Lamb for the sacrifice, (Gen. 22:8.) and Abraham’s prophetic naming of that Sacred location as “יִרְאֶה יְהוָה”, “YHVH Sees and Provides”, (Gen. 22:14.).

        As well as the Sacrifice of Jesus taking place in Jerusalem, on Golgotha, on the very same Mount Moriah, and to Isaac not appearing within the text of scripture as being physically present again, until he meets who would become his bride, Rebekah for the first time, (Genesis 24:63,64.).

        Rebekah here, being a foreshadowing who symbolically represents, the Church of Jesus, or Bride.

        And though not a virgin birth, the birth of Isaac, (with Abraham being one hundred years old and with Sarah being barren and now 91), was also by Divine Intervention of God and Spirit.
        (Just like the birth of Jesus was. Both births were a fulfillment of God The Fathers Promise, and orchestrated through and by, Divine Intervention.)

        Furthermore, since Abrahams Faith meant that he also believed God when He said, “thou shalt be a father of many nations”, (Genesis 17:4.), and that God said that the promise and covenant, would be fulfilled through Isaac, “I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his SEED after him”, (Genesis 17:19.), then Abraham had no choice but to logically conclude, that if he did happen to complete the sacrifice of his son Isaac, for Gods Promises and Covenant to be fulfilled, God would have to also Resurrect Isaac.

        This last point is alluded to within Hebrews 11:19., yet as a “similitude and example”, it all came to fruition and climaxed years later, when another, “Promise” and “Covenant” were also fulfilled, with the Sacrifice and Resurrection of the “One true Seed”, our Lord and Saviour Jesus.

        So, if you agree with and believe all of the above, then, “who” do you suppose that “Ishmael” being “firstborn” symbolically represents and foreshadows?

        And “why” and for “what purpose” did Father God allow for Hagar to conceive Ishmael by Abram?

        And just as important, though Ishmael would have been present within Genesis 18., “why” wasn’t he even mentioned once or ever acknowledged by the Lord or His Angels throughout their entire time together?

        • gm

          I guess following your logic, Ishmael might be considered the antichrist spirit.

          why he was born first, to show how abraham produced flesh instead of spirit by failing to believe in the promise of a child by sarah.

          hagar was flesh, and rebellion against the promise, and so was her son.

          Ishmael was not mentioned because he was not the one promised

          he was the result of man’s actions, not God’s

  47. Hi Marianne,

    Actually, your response in many ways is quite accurate, though it does miss the mark regarding “who” Ishmael symbolically represents and foreshadows “specifically”, not only by my “logic, thought or opinion”, but also by some critical passages that are provided within the New Testament.

    First in defense of Abram, (before God changed his name to Abraham), though Abram knew that he would father an heir, (Genesis 15:4.), he wasn’t yet aware when he and Hagar conceived “Ishmael” that the promise of that heir, would be a son through Sarah, (Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.).

    Now Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”.
    And Sarai, “שָׂרַי”, transliterated as “Saray”, means “Princess”.
    Therefore, “who” is ABRAM the “father” of?

    So allow for me to ask my previous question again by wording it differently, before I will address my other two questions after seeing your reply.

    If within Genesis 22:1-19., (notice the change in name), ABRAHAM was a “type” of “God the Father”, that would have already had a son, before “Isaac” who clearly symbolically represents “Jesus” here, then “who” was “God the Fathers firstborn son” before “Jesus”?

    “Ishmael” would then be the equivalent (as a symbolic representation, and foreshadowing) to God the Fathers “firstborn son”.

    (Regarding the antichrist spirit, that would be accurate in the context of those that don’t believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.)

    So again, “who” does “Ishmael” foreshadow and symbolically represent?

    .

  48. Hi Marianne,

    Well the answer as to “who” Ishmael symbolically represents and foreshadows is “ethnic Israel”, Abram and God’s firstborn son, (Exodus 4:22.)

    And “ethnic Israel” would also have “duality of meaning” in that, it would also incorporate “all of mankind” that doesn’t believe in Jesus as their Saviour, and everyone that Jesus as Judge, would deem to be “firstborn and flesh” .

    No one that isn’t born of the Spirit, can see or enter the Kingdom of God, (John 3:3. & 5.).
    No one that isn’t born of the Spirit, will be an HEIR with Jesus, because they are flesh, and are “firstborn” instead of Spirit and a “New second born Creation”, (John 3:6.).

    Genesis 21:10. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, “Cast Out” this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall NOT be HEIR with my Son, even with Isaac”.

    God agreed with Sarah, and her decision, and Abraham was told by God in Genesis 21:12. to listen to Sarah, and do what she said, because, “for in Isaac shall thy Seed be called.”

    And Abraham (as a “type” of God the Father), gives and leaves everything to Isaac, (as a “type” of Jesus) as his heir, (Genesis 25:5.).

    Though God is not finished with ethnic Israel for the sake of the fathers, His first “love” are those that have “faith and belief” in His Son, because Jesus died to create this “New second born Creation”.

    But this “Casting Out” for ethnic Israel and the rest of the unbelieving world of “firstborn flesh”, as well as those from the Church of Laodicea, who have been deemed by Jesus to be “wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked”, (hence exposing their flesh), is the “Casting Into” the “Trial and Time of Testing” and the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus”, (Revelation 3:10. & 19.), otherwise referred to as the SEALS, where all have the opportunity to repent and come to, (or back to) HIM.

    Consider this, currently as it stands today, “ethnic Israel” simply thinks that we as Christians are delusional to believe in a “Man-God”.
    They believe that God is merely One and that He has said within the Old Testament over a 100 times, that HE IS the “Redeemer, Deliverer, Salvation and Saviour” and they have no concept that because “man of flesh” (1st.Adam, firstborn) was the nail in the coffin that then caused sin and death, that a “Man of Spirit” (2nd. Adam, Second Born) was necessary to repair and reconcile that sin and death. (see 1 Corinthians 15:45.)

    Something very significant has to occur to very make them, “jealous”, (Deuteronomy 32.21., Romans 10:19., and 11:11.) and for their eye’s to be opened to the possibilities of a Man-God, (not to mention the rest of the “firstborn flesh” world).

    Now from what I can gather from your website, you have been doing this from at least January 2007, and when you didn’t immediately reply in your response above with the answer “ethnic Israel” it did leave me rather confused.
    I thought that the response of “ethnic Israel” would have simply been automatic. (?)

    Since you mentioned the Book of Isaiah above, was I wrong in assuming that after all of these years, you haven’t followed God the Fathers instructions and directive, (Commandment or Torah) to…. “Look to Abraham if you were seeking Righteousness before a Holy God”.

    Isaiah 51:1,2.;
    “Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”

    Though we have barely scratched the surface by what I have provided in all the above, this is basically what we have done.
    We’ve “Looked back to Abraham”, but also since this is the Word of God, we were thorough, and went right back to Abram.

    We discovered that by obeying YHVH, and being the “firstborn son” of Terah, Abram received the fulfillment of his “firstborn birthright”, and became the Father of “ethnic Israel”, the “firstborn people” of God that were as a whole, comprised of “flesh”.

    Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”, and he was the “father of ethnic Israel”.

    Sarai, (who was barren, which foreshadows Mary being a Virgin) wasn’t involved physically with the birth of Ishmael, only Hagar was.

    In Genesis 17:5. & 15,16. after Abram’s encounter with “Melchizedek King of Salem” (Jesus), God then changes both his and Sarai’s name.
    Abram becomes Abraham, and Sarai becomes Sarah.

    Abraham, “אַבְרָהָם”, transliterated as “’Avraham”, means “Father of Multitudes, or, Nations”.
    Sarah, “שָׂרָה”, transliterated as “Sarah”, means, “Princess of Nations”.

    Like when we ourselves have our own personal encounter with Jesus, and we become “born again of Spirit”, and we become a “New second born Creation”, Abram in now having his name changed to Abraham, also becomes a “second born” and with it becomes the “Father of Promise, Faith and Belief”.

    Sarah’s name was changed because she foreshadows Mary, where both will play a significant role in the fulfillment of bringing forth God’s Promise.

    So you are right in your reply regarding Ishmael, where you say;
    “why he was born first, to show how abraham (ABRAM) produced flesh instead of spirit ” and that “hagar was flesh, and rebellion against the promise, and so was her son. Ishmael was not mentioned because he was not the one promised, he was the result of man’s actions, not God’s”

    In other words, Abram, (a firstborn) and Hagar’s (a woman that is a slave) union and the birth of Ishmael foreshadow as a “similitude and example”, how futile flesh, or a human attempt is, in being able to fulfill Gods Promise.

    Now what also struck me as odd, was that all of this is explained within the New Testament by Paul.
    Within Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1., Paul explains in detail what we have more or less covered over these last couple of posts, and why I thought it peculiar that you didn’t answer with “ethnic Israel” in your first reply.

    Many do find Galatians 4:21. to be confusing, so if I may quote that verse from the K.J.V., I’ll also explain what Paul’s question actually consists of.

    4:21. “Tell me, “YE THAT DESIRE” to be under the law, do ye not “HEAR” the law?”

    4:21. is rendered in the Greek Morphological text as;

    “λέγετέ μοι οἱ ὑπὸ νόμον θέλοντες εἶναι τὸν νόμον οὐκ ἀκούετε”

    And would be transliterated as;

    “legete moi hoi hypo nomom thelontes einai ton nomom ouk akouete”.

    As rendered, this in turn would roughly translate into English as;

    “Tell me you who under law want to be the law do you not hear?”

    The translated English “YE THAT DESIRE” was derived from the Greek verb “θέλοντες”, transliterated as “thelontes”.

    Thelontes is defined as, “to will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish etc.”.

    Within the first portion of the verse, “ye that desire to be under the law”, Paul is referring to the “Mosaic Law”.

    The translated “HEAR”, above, has far more to do with the concept of “understanding” rather than anything audible.

    With “hear” being derived from the Greek verb, “ἀκούετε”, transliterated as “akouete”, from the definitions of the word, it’s context is to be understood as, “to attend to, consider what is or has been said, to understand, perceive the sense of what is said, to comprehend, to understand, to give ear to a teaching or a teacher to learn”.

    Therefore where Paul poses the question, “do ye not HEAR the law?”, in the latter portion of the verse, he is now referring to “Torah”, and a time reaching back in history, far further than that of the Mosaic Law.

    The verse itself should have been rendered as “Tell me you that desire to be under the Mosaic Law, do you not understand Torah?”

    This can be easily verified by the very fact that, that all the narrative from this point forward in chapter 4, is all from Torah, (with the exception of verse 4:27., [Isaiah 54:1.] which also happens to reference Torah) and a time that predates the Mosaic Law.

    Paul expresses that there are two Covenants where the “First” one is symbolically represented and foreshadowed by “Hagar and Ishmael”, a slave and a “firstborn of flesh”, which consists of a futile human effort to fulfill God’s Promise.

    But that the ”Second” Covenant is symbolically represented and foreshadowed by “Sarah and Isaac” where both are “free”, are “Second Born” and represent “the Fulfillment of Promise, Faith and Belief”.

    I am sure that after all of your years of study that you are well aware that after Abraham demonstrated his willingness to offer up Isaac, (which was clearly a foreshadowing of the Father providing Jesus), that Abraham didn’t once see the need to offer up any “offering or sacrifice” of any kind to God, and how this would be germane to the irrelevance of the Mosaic Law, as opposed to Faith after Jesus.

    But since you didn’t, (and haven’t yet) answered with “ethnic Israel”, I am wondering as to how you personally interpret the text of Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1.?

    Would you be kind enough to fill me in?

    .

    • GM

      they are different topics but they overlap

      lsaac also represented christ, so Ishmael represents antichrist

      Isaac represented spiritual/ saved, so Ishmael represents what is ethnic/ not saved yet

      Isaac represented spirit, so Ishmael represents flesh

      4
      28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

      29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

      I have always seen the human nature as either spiritual or flesh….the concept of “ethnic” is not addressed in scripture by that term, but your analogy is still valid in the way you present it

  49. Hi Marianne,
    Thanks for your response.

    To me what you provided in your reply, only further demonstrates the “duality and multiplicity of meaning” that God provides us within scripture.

    I would agree that, “Isaac represents Christ, Spirit, Salvation, and I would also add, the fulfillment of “Promise”, and that “Ishmael represents antichrist, what is not saved, “flesh” and the lack of fulfillment of Promise”.

    As I said above within one of my previous posts when you first introduced this “antichrist” concept, “Regarding the antichrist spirit, that would be accurate in the context of those that don’t believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah”, these individuals in God the Fathers eyes would be considered as “flesh” and “firstborns”.

    Now though this may sound like the most ridiculous question that has ever been asked, I’m going to ask it anyway.
    “Do you believe that what “Isaac” represents, as opposed to what “Ishmael” represents, are the extreme antithesis of each other?”

    I’m going to assume that you answered “YES” to the above and continue on, :-), though the aspect of “opposition” must be fully understood.

    Now where you say, “they are different topics but they overlap”, I’m not sure what you are referring to exactly?
    But since you provided scripture from the passages that I had directed you to, I’ll assume that it has relevance to them.

    Do you remember the definition that I provided above regarding Amos 3:7.?
    Well, whether these passages of Galatians 4:21. through 5:1., were expressed by Paul, or any other Apostle, they had to be expressed to fulfill Amos 3:7.
    The meaning of what “Abram, Hagar and Ishmael” opposed to “Abraham, Sarah and Isaac” as a “similitude and example” must be explained.

    The two obvious questions that we should be addressing are:

    1) “WHY”, when the Mosaic Law was in place and paramount for “righteousness, tsĕdaqah”, (Deuteronomy 6:25.), would God then instruct and direct those that seek Him, to look to Abraham and Sarah for “righteousness, tsedeq”, in Isaiah 51:1.?

    2) “Why didn’t God direct everyone to “look to Moses”?”

    The answers to both questions are provided by Paul within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1..

    Above you quote Galatians 4:28.;
    “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

    Let’s look at the above verse to see exactly what Paul is referring to here. What do we know and can say with confidence that would be “fact”?

    Though “Isaac” was Abraham’s and Sarah’s “firstborn son” of Promise, (and in being “their firstborn” son together, Isaac establishes his own “birthright”), we also know that Isaac is (Abram)/Abraham’s “second born” son.

    By that, since we know that Abraham symbolically represents a “type” of God the Father, we can also conclude that “Isaac” symbolically represents a “type” of Jesus, the true fulfillment of Promise, and that JESUS (like Isaac) has established HIS own “BIRTHRIGHT”, (or Covenant) as well.

    So the “brethren” above must also encompass all of the above.

    First for us to be “brethren”, we must be “born of the Spirit” and also become “second born” (like Isaac) and a “New Creation” and be granted access to the “BIRTHRIGHT”, (or Covenant) of Jesus .

    This is achieved through “Faith and Belief” in Jesus.

    Second, to be like “Isaac and a child of Promise”, “brethren” would also mean that you are considered by God, to be a “figurative child” of Abraham’s and Sarah’s.

    Galatians 3:6,7.;
    “Even as Abraham Believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of Faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

    Now before continuing further, I would like to know whether or not you fully agree with the above?

    And I also have a request.
    Could you please provide me with what you believe, a “definition” of “Torah” would be?

    .

    • gm

      amos 3:7
      Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

      I do not see how this is related to the discussion of opposites present in bible personalities.

      Torah technically is the first 5 books of the bible, which is mosaic law and history.

      Tenach refers to all old testament text.

      Sometimes Torah can refer to the entire tenach, with the concept that God’s law and will is present in all books of the bible in some form or another.

  50. Hi Marianne,

    Yes the “Tenach” or “Tanakh” refers to “all Old Testament text”.
    It is an acronym for “Torah” (law), Nevi’im, (prophets) and Ketuvim (writings), and as you say, “Torah” is technically, or “generally” referring to the first five books that were scribed by Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

    However many people when the hear the word “Torah” immediately associate and “limit” that word, to be referencing the “Mosaic Law”.
    (Many unfortunately do the very same thing whenever they see the word “Commandment” too.)
    The “Mosaic Law” just happens to be included within the last four books, but “Torah” has a far broader scope than simply that.

    Specifically, Torah the Hebrew “תּוֹרָה”, transliterated as “tôwrâh”, is defined primarily in its noun form, as “law, direction and instruction”.
    Tôwrâh being derived from the Hebrew root verb, “יָרָה”, transliterated as “yârâh”, is primarily defined as to “shoot an arrow and to hit the mark”.

    Together then, tôwrâh can be defined as “to shoot out” in respects to “pointing or leading to show”, “to direct”, “to teach and instruct”, or “to lay foundations” to “hit the mark”.

    Therefore by that definition, the first recorded tôwrâh issued to man in scripture, would be the Commandments of Genesis 1:28-30., which are thousands and thousands of years before Sinai, and the revelation of the Mosaic Law.

    You recognize and acknowledge this yourself where you say;
    “Sometimes Torah can refer to the entire tenach, with the concept that God’s law and will is present in all books of the bible in some form or another.”

    Though I would express that slightly different by saying;
    “Torah is present throughout the whole of the Bible, (both Old and New), because God’s Will “IS” present within all Books.”

    Just because the language in which each was written has changed, (from Hebrew and Aramaic to Greek), does not detract from a “Commandment from God” in one, carrying any less weight, than a “Commandment from God” in the other.
    A “Commandment from God the Father” “IS” a “Commandment from God the Father.”

    And since everything that Jesus said, came directly from God the Father, (Deuteronomy 18:15. & 18,19., John 3:34., 8:26.,28. & 47., 12:49,50., 14:10.,24., 17:8. & Hebrews 1:1,2.), then that should only further confirm, that everything that Jesus expressed as a Commandment is also Torah as “law, direction and instruction”, and is a Commandment from God the Father.

    Regarding Amos 3:7.
    Amos 3:7., is simply relevant to everything.

    If God says that He will do NOTHING unless He FIRST reveals what He is going to do, then He CAN’T DO what He wants to do UNTIL He actually expresses that desire FIRST.
    (I posted the definition to Amos 3:7. above in the beginning of my reply to dmcal52 on Nov. 9th. @ 7:34am. in what looks like comment 360889.)

    And God does this through Paul, where Paul explains in detail within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1., “what” the whole historical account of Abram, Hagar and Ishmael, and Abraham, Sarah and Isaac, actually represents in being a “symbolic foreshadowing”, and a “similitude and example”.

    If Paul through the Holy Spirit, hadn’t explained “what all of this actually means”, then not only would God NOT be able to perform it, “we” simply would never have understood it, and because it is so “deep”, we would have probably never made the connection in the first place.

    So, we have TWO sons that came from the same FATHER, where one son, “Ishmael” represents antichrist, what is not saved, “flesh” and the lack of the fulfillment of Promise”. Being the child of Hagar, “Ishmael” also represents the birth of “slavery and bondage”.

    And we have the other son, “Isaac” who represents Christ, Spirit, Salvation, and the fulfillment of “Promise”. Being the child of Sarah, “Isaac” also represents the birth of “freedom and liberty”.

    Now in that context, apply these two sons to just the verses of Galatians 4:22.– 25..
    What do you understand from this?

    .

  51. Hi Marianne,

    I had come to this site initially, (a month or so ago) to see whether or not, the significance that God places on “Firsts and Seconds” had also been possibly revealed to others?

    When while here then, I read some of the posts on another page, and replied to one that dmcal52 had made in respects to the same topic of discussion that I addressed here on “Seals Overlap”.

    Where I attempted to explain, in both instances, that if 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. and what happened to ethnic Israel was an example for the Church, then by logical extension, just like God only called a “remnant” of Israel to the truth of Jesus, only a “remnant” of the Church will be accounted worthy for the “first resurrection”,
    (Revelation 3:7-12., a Church of Overcomers.
    Revelation 3:14-19., a Church that is wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked and being “spit out”).

    I had returned this last time to see whether or not, the aspect of being “barren” had also possibly been revealed to others?
    Being “barren” like, Sarah, Rebekah, Leah, Rachel, Manoah’s wife the mother of Samson, etc. etc., is “symbolic and foreshadows” many different things.

    For one, it foreshadows that God Himself had no legitimate (human) children after the implementation of the Mosaic Law.
    (Moses himself, (after his error with the Rock at Kadesh) had to be retrieved, (through compassion and mercy) by the Archangel Michael from Satan, [Jude 1:9.].
    Even King David hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, [Acts 2:34,35.].
    And Romans 3:9-18. clearly states that “not one man” was “righteous” prior to Jesus.)

    Which means, that the aspect of being “barren” foreshadows, that God must perform Divine Intervention by providing His Son, where through Jesus, “children of adoption” may then be attained, and where ultimately, the Promise that He had made (Genesis 3:15., Genesis 22:18.) would then be fully realized.

    Like the significance that God places on “First and Seconds” there is so much more that I could provide and comment on regarding the scope and substance of being “barren”.

    Then, while still in the process of demonstrating how “multifaceted in meaning” and “polysemantic” God’s Word can be, (and to how this also testifies to the validity of the “definition” that I have provided above for Amos 3:7.), “YOU” replied to “me”.

    And it was during the course of our discussion, when I had asked you, “Who “Ishmael” symbolically represents as Abram/(Abraham’s) firstborn son”, and you didn’t automatically respond with “ethnic Israel”, that I realized that you don’t fully understand the passages of Galatians 4:21 through 5:1..

    Normally I wouldn’t consider this to be a “big deal”, since “none of us”, (myself included) has the capacity to fully understand the totality of God and His Word.
    However, these particular passages express a “foundational tenet” of the “Gospel of Jesus”, and to our walk in Faith.

    So I enquired as to what your “interpretation” of those passages consists of on, “November 16th. @ 9:40 pm.” and asked you, “I am wondering as to how you personally interpret the text of Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1.?”

    However in your reply the next day, you chose to not comply with my request, and instead culled out and quoted only two verses, without providing any context or specificity in respect to those verses. (?)

    So…. because these passages express such an “important foundational tenet”, I pressed forward by providing you with additional “hints” and “clues”.
    (Where interestingly, everything that I have said, (with the exception of my post regarding “allah”) also has relevance to Galatians 4:21. through 5:1.)

    I then requested that you, “apply these two sons to just the verses of Galatians 4:22.– 25.”, and I again asked, What do you understand from this?”, where no further response from you has been forthcoming. (?)

    Now, though I could provide you with what specifically, each and every verse is expressing, I have found in the past, that the results of doing this, are much like providing someone “advise”.
    “Advice” can be taken, or simply tossed aside, depending upon the recipient.
    However when something is revealed by the Spirit, we then have an “A-ha” moment which can’t be denied.

    So I would like to let you know, that this is no longer between You and I.
    (I am leaving, and continuing on with my studies and to where God leads me.)
    You know in your heart whether you actually understand these “passages”, and better yet, “God knows” too.
    So whether you “choose” to delve into these passages or not, is solely between “You and God”.

    James says in James 1:5,6.;
    “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”, because true revelation and interpretation can only be provided by the Spirit of Truth, (1 Corinthians 2:10-16.).

    It is my hope that you do “choose” to do so, and that through the Spirit you receive the full understanding of what it is that Father God is expressing in regards to these passages. In doing so, it should also provide you with better insight in being able to “Edify the Church” on your site, (which I hope is also the “heart of your mandate” for this site overall).

    If you do, remember that there are “two sons” and “two Covenants” from the same “Father (God)”, and that it is “Sarah” that is married and has the husband, and keep in mind, “That it is virtually impossible to be both, “Isaac” and “Ishmael” at the same time”, so one should “choose” to be one son, or the other. Hence what Paul says in Galatians 5:1.

    God Bless.

  52. Hi Marianne,

    I forgot that I hadn’t provided the information that I said that I would provide, regarding the “Two Resurrection’s” of those that have “faith” in Jesus, that are foreshadowed in the Old Testament, (or “First” Covenant).
    I’ll try to provide them over the next week or so here on “Seals Overlap” before I go.

    However, I did notice that You and Shoshanna are having a discussion with an individual named Jacob on “YHVH, Behold, the man, behold the nail.”
    Where it appears that he holds to the belief in the “Oneness of God”, the same as Judaism, (and interestingly, the same as Islam).
    Perhaps you could utilize some of the following within that discussion to provide him with some insight?
    (I don’t wish to get involved lol.)

    Judaism is “the monotheistic religion of the Jewish people”, and those that have converted to the “Jewish faith”.
    Which would consist of individuals that don’t believe that Jesus is the Saviour, and who are “firstborns”, not being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

    Those that practice Judaism, read the text of Creation, (Genesis Ch.1 to 2:3.), and because they haven’t been blessed with the knowledge from the Second Covenant text, they simply accept ‘Elohiym as being just another Name for YHVH. (You may too, so please bare with me.)

    The paradox here is, though it IS another Name…. IT’s not.

    Though indeed ONE, (‘Elohiym is YHVH, Exodus 6:2., John 1:1.) THEY the THREE are distinct.

    ‘Elohiym in the Divine personage of Jesus is unique.

    For example, those that practice Judaism, will read Scripture from the Old Covenant such as this excerpt from Joel 2:32.;
    “that whosoever shall call on the name of the “LORD, (YHVH)” shall be delivered”,
    and believe because they trust in YHVH, that they will go to heaven and be with Him when they die.

    Unfortunately however, they have no idea that the entirety of this verse is prophetic.

    Joel 2:32.;
    “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (JESUS) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHVH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHVH) shall call.” (Father God’s calling, John 6:44. & 65.)

    Though this verse has duality of meaning, in not having any knowledge of what is written and spoken by YHVH through Jesus and the Apostle’s within the Second Covenant text, they have no idea that this verse is referring specifically to that of “Jesus”, and “Calling on His Name”.

    Simply see, “Acts 2:21. & 4:10-12., Romans 10:9-13., and John 14:1-6.” for a verification of that truth.

    Therefore though ONE, there is indeed a distinction.

    As opposed to those that practice Judaism, We however are “second born”, by being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and know from the Second Covenant text of, John 1:1-3., 1 Corinthians 8:6., Ephesians 3:9., Colossians 1:16,17., and Hebrews 1:2., & 2:10., that Jesus is, The Word, and The Creator ‘Elohiym.

    If when John in referring to Jesus says that “All things were made through Him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made”, and Paul backs that up by saying in referring to Jesus, “by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” etc. etc., then it is only reasonable to conclude that The Creator ‘Elohiym is Jesus. They are One and the same.

    I would like to propose the following:
    Within the New Second Covenant YHVH is referred to as, “Father God”.
    Father God is invisible and is Spirit, (Colossians 1:15. and John 4:24.).

    ‘Elohiym is also YHVH, (Exodus 6:2. and John 1:1.) but is the portion of Divinity that manifests Himself on earth.
    ‘Elohiym has manifested Himself in many different forms and personages throughout scripture.

    And it is by recognizing this distinction, that a greater understanding of many different things can be received.

    .

    • I do not see it that way, my opinion…

      elohim is the father source of all creation…jesus even speaks of the father as being greater than he is

      the father worked through jesus to create ….so the source of power to create is the father, but the administrator who carries out the creative process is Jesus

      in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name….

  53. Hi Marianne,

    Well, we are all welcome to have our own opinion, (which vary greatly from one end of the spectrum to the other) but they can’t all be right. (?)

    Isn’t God’s Word comprised of “truth”, and isn’t it our responsibility to discover that “truth”, amongst all of the so called opinions?

    I have participated on sites like yours in the past, and unfortunately came to the following conclusion….
    “That peoples opinions have “taken over and superseded”, the act of being a Berean.”

    The following is not to be understood in anyway as to being accusatory, so please don’t be offended, I simply believe it to be fact;

    “I feel that it is safe to say, that while in the process of reading what I had written above, you came across something that you either didn’t fully understand, or that differed from what you currently believe, (which is the basis that forms your opinion). And from that moment forward, you basically disregarded what I had written, (having deemed it to be inaccurate), and not once “searched the scriptures” (that I had provided) as a Berean.”

    Because I can clearly see by what you say within your response….

    “The Father (YHVH) worked through Jesus (‘Elohiym) to create ….so the source of power to create is the Father (YHVH), but the administrator (‘Elohiym) who carries out the creative process is Jesus (‘Elohiym).”

    …. that you didn’t fully understand what I was saying above, because rather than being contradictory, your comment actually agrees and confirms plurality and the distinction where “Two” are in relationship.
    “YHVH is the Source”, and “’Elohiym is the Instrument”.

    Allow for me to present all of this from a different, (Spirit) perspective.

    Question; “What is the only available means through which “we” as mere man, receive the opportunity to approach YHVH or Father God?”

    The answer of course, simply based upon what Jesus Himself says in John 14:6., is “only” through “Him’.

    So we “FIRST” believe and have faith in “Jesus”, where through “Grace” we are then granted access to “His Righteousness” so we can then approach YHVH or Father God.

    Now within our previous discussions, I have already provided numerous examples of how Father God has equipped us with symbolic foreshadowing’s within scripture, that express that He will perform Divine Intervention and provide mere man with His Son, The Messiah.

    Adam foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Cain, Able and Seth, foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Abram foreshadowing ethnic Israel and “Melchizedek” foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Abraham being a “type” of Father God (YHVH) and Isaac foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.

    Where I could go on and on and provide hundreds, if not possibly thousands of these “symbolic foreshadowing” examples.

    Therefore, if Father God has provided us with all of the above, and in doing so, demonstrated as to how incomprehensibly proficient He is in His Word, wouldn’t He ALSO provide “symbolic foreshadowing’s” regarding the aspect of;
    “JESUS FIRST, then GRACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, then being able to APPROACH YHVH or FATHER GOD?

    Above in my last post I said…
    “And it is by recognizing this distinction, that a greater understanding of many different things can be received.”

    Would it be merely coincidence then, that Adam was created in the image of ‘Elohiym (Genesis 1:26,27. and 5:1.), BEFORE the the first time the LORD (YHVH) is mentioned by Name within Genesis 2:4.?

    Was it merely coincidence, that Enoch walked with ‘Elohiym, (Genesis 5:22-23.), and it was ‘Elohiym that “took” (laqach, caught up, seized) Enoch to YHVH, (Jesus to God the Father), where Enoch would now have relationship with both, YHVH and ‘Elohiym. (Hebrews 11:5.)?

    Or better yet, was it merely coincidence that, Noah, because he walked with ‘Elohiym, was “just, tsaddiyq” (Genesis 6:9.), therefore he found “GRACE” in the eyes of YHVH, (Genesis 6:8.).

    And, because Noah obeyed all of the Commandments from ‘Elohiym, regarding building the Ark, preparing the food for themselves, and all of the birds and animals, consisting of two, both male and female, (Genesis 6:13-22.), YHVH could then declare Noah as being “Righteous, also tsaddiyq”, (Genesis 7:1. & Hebrews 11:7.).

    It was then that Noah had relationship with YHVH, and Noah, (after he had been declared as being righteous) then received separate Commandments from YHVH, where YHVH expanded upon the Commandments from ‘Elohiym, to gather seven of every clean animal, both male and female, and specified that instead of just two birds of male and female, to increase that number to seven as well, (Genesis 7:1-4.), which Noah then fulfilled, (Genesis 7:5.).

    Then we have Abram, who “symbolically represents” ethnic Israel, where we have a very significant foreshadowing and a major shift in paradigm.
    Abram is the very FIRST individual in scripture that has relationship with YHVH FIRST, (Genesis 12:1. through 14:17., where only YHVH is mentioned).

    And though Abram fulfilled and obeyed each and every Commandment made to him by YHVH, (see my post 361041 of November 13th. @ 12:45 am.) it was ONLY after the appearance of “Melchizedek” that Abram could then be declared as being “Righteous”.
    (Is this merely coincidence too?)

    All of the above, do more than “symbolically foreshadow” that the belief and faith in JESUS CHRIST comes FIRST, then through GRACE, the state or position of RIGHTEOUSNESS, where through that, we are then able to APPROACH YHVH or FATHER GOD.

    And like the “symbolic foreshadowing’s” regarding Father God providing us with His Son, (where I could go on and on and provide hundreds, if not possibly thousands of examples), I could also continue on here as well.

    Therefore though ONE, (John 1:1.), they are also distinct.
    If They weren’t distinct from One another, then not would all of the above be redundant and have no meaning whatsoever, but there would have never been a need or necessity for Father God to provide us with His Son.
    Because all that believe in YHVH, (whether they happened to believe in Jesus or not), would as Joel 2:32. states, “BE SAVED”.

    And that is completely contrary to our Faith, and everything that is provided by Father God within the New Second Covenant text.

    Above you also make the statement, “in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name.”

    Well you’re correct there, at that specific time ‘Elohiym didn’t introduce Himself to Moses as YHVH, but He does later in Exodus 6:2.;
    “And ‘Elohiym spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the YHVH:”

    The reason that Rabbinical Judaism doesn’t recognize any of this, is because they’re attempting to decipher the “Word of God” “carnally” as “firstborns of flesh”, since they don’t possess “God’s Spirit”.
    If we don’t utilize God’s Spirit when we read the Word, we do the same thing, and aren’t receptive to the scope and depth of “what” God the Father is actually expressing in His Word.

    We must always remain conscious of seeking God’s Truth through the Spirit, otherwise we simply decipher scripture in the same carnal, fleshy, means of interpretation.

    .

    • gm

      please write shorter commentaries. I have about 100 emails a day to read, and long ones i have to skim quickly, which may be a reason we seem to disconnect.

      i did catch this

      you misquoted/misunderstood me when you said:

      Because I can clearly see by what you say within your response….

      “The Father (YHVH) worked through Jesus (‘Elohiym) to create ….so the source of power to create is the Father (YHVH), but the administrator (‘Elohiym) who carries out the creative process is Jesus (‘Elohiym).”

      to me, the FATHER is elohim……jesus is YHVH

  54. Sorry.

    “Yes” “They” are One as I said above.

    But do you understand that “They” are also distinct.

    If “They” weren’t distinct from One another, then not would all of the above be redundant and have no meaning whatsoever, but there would have never been a need or necessity for Father God to provide us with His Son.

    Because all that believe in YHVH, (whether they happened to believe in Jesus or not), would as Joel 2:32. states, “BE SAVED”.

    And that is completely contrary to our Faith, and everything that is provided by Father God within the New Second Covenant text.

    Oh and did you happen to catch the above when you skimmed it over?

    Above you also make the statement, “in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name.”

    Well you’re correct there, at that specific time ‘Elohiym didn’t introduce Himself to Moses as YHVH, but He does later in Exodus 6:2.;
    “And ‘Elohiym spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the YHVH:”

    That was shorter 🙂

    .

    • gm

      yes that was shorter 🙂

      yes I know they are distinct.

      exd 6:1-3 the hebrew is a little more complex than that. it says

      yhvh was speaking to begin with to moses….in verse 1 and 3

      verse two not only includes elohim but אֵלָיו which means goddess.. possibly a reference to the holy spirit.

      it actually says elohim spoke to moses….and goddess said I am YHVH

      my impression is that the father, son and spirit were all present…

  55. Hi Marianne,

    I believe that the Spirit is ever-present at all times as well.

    But since we are both on the same page regarding the “Three being One”, yet at the same time, being “distinct” from One Another, I would really appreciate it if you could find the time to really read and contemplate over what I had written above in that last post.

    Regarding “’ê-lāw” or “אֵלָיו” , spelled Aleph, Lamed, Yod and Vav.
    It is my understanding that ’ê-lāw is a preposition. (?)
    And that “’ĕ·lō·hê ” or “אֱלֹהֵ֖י”, spelled Aleph, Lamed, Hey and Yod, (or ‘elohiym, “אֱלֹהִים” minus the Mem) is what is translated as “goddess” depending upon context, such as in 1 Kings 11:5. and 11:33.
    Am I incorrect in that understanding?

    .

    • gm

      אֱלֹהֵ֖י means “god of” or divine…it is possessive.

      in one of the daily prayers, it says god of abraham, god of isaac, god of jacob….each time it will say אֱלֹהֵ֖י

      אֵלָה is goddess, the yud is missing and the vowels are different

      I have your other comment “starred” in my email to return to it.

      i have to drink some coffee first…

  56. Hi Marianne,

    “Okay then” regarding the above Hebrew.

    Any way’s,
    “Why” I hope that you’ll really take the time to contemplate over what I had written in that post, is because YOU DO RECOGNIZE and ACKNOWLEDGE that though ONE, THEY ARE DISTINCT.
    (And I also hope that you’ll take into account the “list of Commandments that YHVH had given Abram, which Abram fulfilled and obeyed, yet still wasn’t declared by YHVH to be “Righteous”, [which I’ve listed in my post of 361041 on November 13th. @ 12:45 am.])

    Many people DON’T recognize this “FACT”, and therefore miss some very significant aspects of what is being said within the Fathers Word.

    Look at Genesis 17:1,2.
    “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (YHVH) appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, and be thou perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.”

    Now I’m not going to go into specific detail regarding “שַׁדַּי אֵל” being translated in the King James as “Almighty God” here.
    It’s sufficient to know, as per Exodus 6:3., that this was the Name that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew the Divine as, and that Moses had scribed what he had, with intention and purpose as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    Let’s just concentrate on the “distinctiveness” between “YHVH and ‘Elohiym” for the moment.

    So above we have YHVH saying to Abram, “If you’ll walk “perfectly” before Me, (“tamiym”, completely and entirely whole, without blemish) then I will make My Covenant between us, and will multiply you greatly.”

    Then we have in Genesis 17:3-5.
    “And Abram fell on his face: and God (‘Elohiym) talked with him, saying As for Me, behold, My Covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

    Here we have ‘Elohiym making an ENTIRELY SEPARATE Covenant.
    So much so, that ‘Elohiym even changes Abram’s name to Abraham, and Sarai’s name to Sarah.

    YHVH’s Covenant is relevant to “ethnic Israel”, (ie; Genesis 12:2. & 7. and 13:14-16.) which are all promises made to Abram by YHVH prior to the appearance of Melchizedek.

    I believe that I have provided substantial evidence within my post of 361018, on November 12th. @ 7:04 am. that Abram “symbolically foreshadows” ethnic Israel throughout Genesis 12:1. to 14:17..
    Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”, and Abram was the Father of ethnic Israel.

    Then it was YHVH that made the promises of Genesis 15:4,5. yet this promise consists of “duality of meaning”.

    YHVH knew full well that ‘Elohiym would establish His Covenant with Isaac. That wasn’t a change in plans that They made Together on the fly.
    Though YHVH could have told Abram at that time, that he and Sarah would conceive a son together by Divine Intervention, He didn’t so that Abram and Hagar would conceive Ishmael for a specific purpose.

    The “FIRST” Covenant of promise that YHVH makes to Abram within Genesis 15:7-21. only further substantiates that this particular Covenant is regarding ethnic Israel.

    However now, ‘Elohiym changes Abram’s name to Abraham and and Sarai’s name to Sarah.
    Abraham, “אַבְרָהָם”, transliterated as “’Avraham”, means “Father of Multitudes, or, Nations”.
    And Sarah, “שָׂרָה”, transliterated as “Sarah”, means, “Princess of Nations”.

    And it is ‘Elohiym that now makes His Covenant with Abraham regarding Isaac, and reveals to Abraham that he and Sarah will conceive a Son, by what is stated within the narrative of the text, obviously through Divine Intervention, (Genesis 17:15-17. and most importantly verse 19.)

    Isaac of course is the “child of promise” who symbolically foreshadows “Christ, Spirit, Salvation, the fulfillment of Promise” and the ONE TRUE SEED.

    Since you requested that make my posts shorter, I’ll sign off here for today for the above is a lot to absorb.
    (I have found in the past, that this is simply too deep for many to fully understand.)
    However, if you are following along and are understanding the above, then that is great.
    Because all of this is relevant to so many things, not the least of which is the error of the Rabbinical understanding of Genesis 26:5., but also in it’s relevance to Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. that I spoke of earlier.

    God Bless

    • gm

      ok. just a note. the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham..sarah laughed at the news, since she was old. when sarah’s son was finally born, they named him isaac, which means laughter

      the only reason ishmael was born was because sarah and abraham had grown impatient, and thought god needed a little help, which was a dumb mistake….and we are still paying for that mistake today

  57. Hi Marianne,

    Actually, I addressed this in my previous comment to you, 361120 on November 15th. @ 8:13 pm. where I said;

    “First in defense of Abram, (before God changed his name to Abraham), though Abram knew that he would father an heir, (Genesis 15:4.), he wasn’t yet aware when he and Hagar conceived “Ishmael” that the promise of that heir, would be a son through Sarah, (Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.).”

    Though you say “the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham”, THAT is Biblically inaccurate.

    Please be a Berean and simply read the text of “Genesis 15:4. then Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.” to confirm the truth to what I am saying.

    • gm

      as of 15:4 he had no children yet

      2But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”

      3And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

      4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”

      5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”


      so before he had ANY children, he was told about Isaac

  58. Hi Marianne,

    Seriously?

    After Abram asks the question, “What will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” and then also says regarding Eliezer, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

    YHVH then says in Genesis 15:4,, “This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.”

    YHVH provided no other knowledge to Abram other than “he will father a son that will be his heir”.
    YHVH said nothing about either Ishmael or Isaac!!!

    Ishmael was born to Abram when he was 86 years old, (Genesis 16:16.).

    Then 3 years later, ‘Elohiym, (after He has just changed Abram’s name to Abraham) says in Genesis 17:15-21.;

    “And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
    And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
    Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
    And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
    But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”

    This is obviously the FIRST time that Abram/Abraham had heard anything regarding Sarai/Sarah providing him with a son and a heir.
    It is also the FIRST time that he ever would have heard the name Isaac as well.

    Then a conformation of the above takes place in Genesis 18:9-15.;

    “And They said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    And He said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
    Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
    And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
    Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And He said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.”

    Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born to him, Genesis 21:5.

    So do you still wish to stick with what you currently believe?

    .

    • gm

      what is the purpose of this line of questioning?

      Abraham clearly said he had no offspring in chapter 5. the only “heir” in his house would be his servant Eliezer of Damascus.

      god then tells him he will have an heir of his own body….so this is what the bible says…..this is the first time the promise is given.

      chapter 16…sarai had not born any children yet, and she had Hagar a servant.

      sarai decides to have abraham use her to get a child….hagar conceived by abraham, since abraham obeyed sarai.

      hagar then despises sarai and gets harshly treated…hagar flees…the angel sends her back and conceives Ishmael.

      promise is repeated in chapter 16:16-17 when abraham is 100 and sarai / sarah is 90.

      I do not want to use time to discuss this further

      what I said was biblically accurate

  59. Marianne,

    You ask me in your last response, “What is the purpose of this line of questioning?”

    So I will answer that question.

    “I am attempting to get you to realize, that what you currently believe regarding this topic is incorrect.”

    Question; Allow for me to just ask you this;
    “If in Genesis 15:4., YHVH told ABRAM, (not Abraham) specifics, (or even implied anything) regarding “Isaac”, WHY in heavens name did ABRAM name his FIRST son “Ishmael”?

    If YHVH had provided ABRAM with any knowledge regarding “Isaac”, then to name this son “Ishmael” would be DISOBEDIENT to YHVH.

    And being DISOBEDIENT would CONTRADICT Genesis 26:5.;
    “Because that Abraham OBEYED My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    LOOK;

    When ABRAM was 75 and still living in Haran, and YHVH gave him the Commandment to leave, YHVH also said in Genesis 12:2.;
    “I will make you a great nation”.

    Now ABRAM probably wondered what that actually meant.
    Could it mean that he and SARAI were going to have children together in the future?
    Did he wonder “how and when” YHVH would make him “becoming a great nation” would come to fruition?
    Probably, but he hadn’t been provided with enough information to know any of the answers to the questions that he may have had.
    So, other than possibly thinking the above, ABRAM certainly had no clue regarding anything in respects to either Ishmael or Isaac.
    But ABRAM OBEYED and went to Canaan anyway.

    Later, when the group of them had made it as far as Shechem, (as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh), YHVH appeared to ABRAM again and said in Genesis 12:7.; “And to your “DESCENDANTS” I will give this land”.

    So here YHVH had provided ABRAM with a bit more information.
    ABRAM must of thought, “YHVH said that He will give my “descendants” this land.
    This must mean that I am going to father and have children with SARAI, and that’s how I will become a great nation.”
    But other than possibly thinking this, ABRAM wasn’t provided with any other information, (and he certainly had no clue regarding Ishmael or Isaac either).

    Later again, after ABRAM and everyone had returned from Egypt to Bethel, where he had pitched his tent and built an altar previously, ABRAM and Lot separated.
    After that had occurred, YHVH confirmed what He had said within Genesis 12:7. and provided ABRAM with more information within in Genesis 13:14-17.;

    YHVH said to ABRAM, “Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
    For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to “THY SEED” for ever.
    And I will make “THY SEED” as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall “THY SEED” also be numbered.
    Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”

    So from the information that YHVH provided ABRAM above, he probably thought, “YES” sometime in the future, SARAI and I are going to have children together, and by “all” that YHVH has said, this great nation that I will father will be innumerable.”
    But other than possibly thinking this, ABRAM wasn’t provided with any other information, (and he certainly had no clue regarding Ishmael or Isaac either).

    And then ABRAM OBEYED the Commandment from YHVH within Genesis 13:18..

    Now the next time that YHVH spoke to ABRAM was in a vision, where YHVH provides ABRAM with more information regarding him having children.
    These specifics are recorded within Genesis 15:1-5..

    The first thing that we must understand is, that we aren’t provided with how much time has elapsed since ABRAM departed from Haran to this time now.
    And though YHVH has basically told ABRAM that he is going to father children THREE times already, by saying that He will “make Abram a great nation” and that ABRAM’S “descendants and seed” will be “innumerable and inherit the land”, ABRAM was clearly frustrated.
    And Abram expresses this frustration to YHVH, when he says in Genesis 15:2,3.;

    “Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
    Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.”

    In Genesis 15:4., YHVH simply confirms what He has already previously said to ABRAM by saying,

    “This shall NOT be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of THINE OWN BOWELS shall be thine heir.”
    And then YHVH says in Genesis 15:5.;
    “Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall THY SEED be.”

    So though this may have somehow been reassuring to ABRAM, he still HADN’T been provided with any other information that he didn’t already know.
    In Genesis 15:2., ABRAM is basically saying, “YHVH you said that I would become a father, but as it stands now, the only heir that I have is this steward of mine, Eliezer of Damascus! Where is this son that YOU told me, that would become my heir?”

    And ABRAM would have still believed, that somehow this heir would be conceived by his “WIFE” SARAI.
    And because this is what ABRAM would have believed, he would of definitely told SARAI all that YHVH had told him regarding an heir.
    But since no further information had been provided by YHVH, ABRAM certainly had no clue regarding anything in respects to Ishmael or Isaac.

    Now, after 10 years had passed since ABRAM had left Haran and entered Canaan, (Genesis 16:3.), SARAI approaches ABRAM in Genesis 16:2. with a plan.

    SARAI is frustrated too, and she says to ABRAM, “Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her.”

    What Genesis 16:2. confirms, is that ABRAM had indeed told SARAI that YHVH had told him that he would have a son as an heir.
    And that ABRAM and SARAI had been attempting to conceive a son, but that conception had been unsuccessful.
    So SARAI presented her alternative plan, “That maybe “SHE” might obtain a son through her Egyptian slave Hagar.”

    SARAI’S rationale and thought process being, “ABRAM, YHVH told you that “YOU” would have an “son and heir”.
    But HE didn’t mention anything about me?
    Maybe this “son and heir” is supposed to be provided by Hagar, and it is through her that “I” obtain a son?

    And it is ONLY because ABRAM had NOT been provided with any information to the contrary of what SARAI suggested by YHVH, that Abram then listened to what SARAI said, took Hagar as his wife, and then through that SLAVE conceived ISHMAEL.

    If ABRAM had been provided with any information by YHVH that SARAI would be the mother of ISAAC, and that ISAAC would be his heir, then he wouldn’t have DISOBYED YHVH and bothered with Hagar.
    ABRAM would have waited for YHVH to fulfill the promise that He had made.

    It is ONLY after 4 years later that the Promise of “ISAAC” is revealed in Genesis 17.
    Where you can read again, what I had written previously within my posts of 361276, November 22nd. @ 9:05 pm. and 361285, November 23rd. @ 4:52 am.

    You have said above, “There are times I change my opinion as time goes on”

    So I ask you again, “Do you still wish to stick with what you currently believe?”

    But before you respond, I also have a request.
    If you have someone that you respect and admire because of their Biblical knowledge, would you be willing to present to them what you currently believe, and what I have expressed above, to see what their opinion would be regarding “who’s” interpretation is more likely to be the truth?

    .

    • gm

      this argument of yours is getting ridiculous. you keep repeating the same argument with same lack of logic.

      god made a promise to abaham..of course this involved his real wife….hagar was sarahs’ idea, not god’s ….so just drop it

      if ishmael was good enough, god would not have opened sarahs womb and had her conceive

      god called ishmael a “Wild man.” not the child of the promise, who was Isaac…

      ishmael’s descendants are all wild…that is not the multitude god was referring to……the descendants of Isaac produced the nation of ISrael. and after jesus came, the gentiles were grafted in …now today there is a multitude that god was speaking of

      ishmaels descendants are mostly muslim and enemies of Isreal…there is no way to include them as the promised blessing to abraham unless they convert and get saved.

      any young woman, with few exceptions, can have a child….the miracle was that sarah could have one in old age.

      ishmael is irrelevant, except as an enemy of Israel ( and therefore of abraham)

  60. Hi Marianne,

    So let me understand this then….
    In the span of only 10 days, I have gone from making “good points” and being a “really deep thinker that you appreciate” to now “lacking logic”.
    I wonder how that occurred?

    You know, by “what” you say in all of your replies above, and by “what” you also chose to “not” reply to when requested, actually reveals a significant amount of information regarding “what” you personally believe.
    If you were more forthcoming and upfront with your belief on the header of your Home Page, I never would have commented here in the first place.

    Nevertheless, you speak about logic, and say in your last reply, “the descendants of Isaac produced the nation of Israel. And after Jesus came, the gentiles were grafted in”.

    So here’s a question;
    “If nonbelieving ethnic Israel, is NOT “born of the Spirit and therefore NOT saved”, then Jesus came, and Father God called “both Jew and Gentile” to “believe” and to be “born of the Spirit and be saved” and in doing so, become a “new second creation, then WHY would that now “believing and born of the Spirit new creation” be GRAFTED BACK INTO a “nonbelieving ethnic Israel, that is NOT “born of the Spirit, is NOT a “new second creation”, and therefore NOT saved”???

    Mark 2:21,22.;
    “No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse.And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

    “I am NOT grafted into ethnic Israel – I AM GRAFTED INTO CHRIST!”
    “CHRIST IS the ROOT”, NOT “nonbelieving ethnic Israel, that is NOT “born of the Spirit” is NOT a “new second creation” and NOT saved!”
    I am a “figurative” child of Abraham and Sarah’s, and I am “blessed” like Abraham because I live by Faith.

    .

    • gm

      good points were made so I acknowledged that. but your discussions are getting more convoluted, and take time to answer. you also seem to be “putting me to the test,” to see if I come up to your standards, which may or may not superior to mine….

      i do not mind, but I am very busy, and have many others to communicate with as well. I get back to you as I have the time. I am up front about what I believe, which is your problem, as there are some points where I disagree with you.

      I believe what the bible says, and do not force interpretations onto it that do not seem logical. this area of disagreement tends to irritate you.(like when I said isaac was promised before ishmael was born)..

      on this site, people have disagreed at times, and disagreement is allowed….but when you disagree with me, that is ok, but if I disagree with you, you criticize me….

      being grafted into christ is not in the bible.

      the concept of grafting in is here:

      13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

      14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

      15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

      16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

      17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree,

      18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

      19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

      20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

      21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

      22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

      23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

      24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


      28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

      29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

      30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[d] receive mercy.

      If it were not for Israel, there would be no christianity….we have to respect our roots, and pray for the salvation of Israel, so the unsaved can be grafted in again.

      as far as vine and branches go, that is a different concept:

      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

      but we are not “grafted” into Christ, we are naturally his branches if we are saved….the concept of grafting relates gentiles to Israel, while salvation relates believers to christ

      • Good day Marianne,

        Just what exactly is the claim that GM is attempting to make? I have read through the posts, but there is so much rhetoric that it makes it hard to pin down. And because of this, it reminds me a lot like Gregg’s line of reasoning, which is why I stopped corresponding with him. He always seemed to be departing from the truth, which is why I couldn’t bear reading his emails. Is it possible that GM is Gregg under a different name/avatar?

        • dmcal

          very possible..

        • dmcal52,

          Though You and I are in obvious disagreement in regards to what the SEAL’S are comprised of, (where you are welcome to believe what you wish to believe), the “point” that I have been attempting to make is, “That Father God’s Word is Living” and that it contains far more information than what can be understood merely on the surface of the text.

          Even the Jewish scholars understand this, where within the Hebrew approach to therapeutics there are four views of interpretation;
          PaRDeS or PRDS in both Hebrew and Aramaic, though referring especially to that of a “garden”, is also an “acronym”.

          Briefly, “Pashat”, is the (simple), literal and direct meaning of the text; “Remez”, is a (hint) of an allegorical significance; an indication of something deeper; “Drash”, is to (search) out an allegorical, typological application; and “Sod”, the (hidden) and mystical meaning.

          However, where the Jewish scholars unfortunately fall short in their study, is because they are attempting to interpret “God’s Spiritual Living Word” while still being “flesh and firstborns”, (see John 3:6.). TRUE revelation of God’s Word is only provided through and by the HOLY SPIRIT, (1 Corinthians 2:10-16.)
          These Jewish scholars are NOT “born of God’s Spirit” therefore, in spite of their dedication to God, they are incapable of interpreting scripture correctly.

          Hopefully you agree so far. (?)

          Therefore above, I provided what could be understood as the “definition” to Amos 3:7.
          And if you believe that Genesis 22:1-19., is not ONLY a recording of an historical event that literally took place, but that it is ALSO a “symbolic foreshadowing” of God the Father actually offering His Son Jesus at a later date, (with “Abraham being a “type” of God the Father” and with “Isaac being a “type” of Jesus”) then with that belief, you are in “agreement” with that “stated” definition.

          Now, if Father God has already done this “once” within the example above, wouldn’t He more than likely utilize this “symbolic foreshadowing” again, perhaps “many times”?

          It was then that I introduced another of these “similitudes and examples” regarding Abram within Genesis 12:1 through 14:17., where in this instance, Abram “symbolically represents and foreshadows” ethnic Israel before Jesus came, (who is symbolically represented by Melchizedek).

          It was then that you disappeared, (since I remind you of some individual named Greg, where I have already explained “why” I came here initially above), and Marianne replied with the correct answer to the question that I had posed, with “Melchizedek”.

          Though it was my intention at the time, to provide the verses within the Old Testament, (that in my opinion), provide evidence of there being “two resurrections” for those that believe in Jesus, (by God symbolically foreshadowing again), the discussion got off track.

          And it was then that I attempted to convey what I truly believe was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit regarding “Firsts and firstborns and Seconds and second born” and the importance that God places in these occurrence’s.
          As well, I also wished to convey the aspect of “though God the Father, the Son and Spirit are One, They are also Distinct from One Another”.

          I had stated previously that this perspective was very complex and difficult to articulate, but I thought that the premise was being followed by Marianne quite well, until it came to the aspect of “Ishmael and Isaac” where we reached an impasse.

          What I am curious about is…. “why” you posted what you did “instead” of “disagreeing” with Marianne and her belief that Abram had been informed by YHVH about “Isaac” long before ever conceiving Ishmael with Hagar?

          Or “why” you didn’t address her understanding that “Christians are grafted into Israel” rather than “INTO CHRIST”?

          Do you believe that Abram had been informed by YHVH about “Isaac” long before ever conceiving Ishmael with Hagar, and that “we” as Christians, are “grafted into Israel” rather than “INTO CHRIST” too?

          If you do, (though it will definitely be long), I suggest that you read my commentary on Romans 11:1-16. that I will post below.
          And I would also recommend that you discover “who” and “what” Hagar and Ishmael “symbolically represent” within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. as well.

          .

          • My gosh! What in the world is your point?! Do you ever just get to the point of anything? What are you trying to prove? I am well aware of the relevance of Hagar/Ismael, Sarah/Issac. Why is it your assumption that I don’t. I am well aware that they represent two different covenants. I left the conversation because I don’t like debating with those who depend on rhetoric as a means to sound knowledgeable in order to prove a point.

            You say a lot without saying or proving anything.

  61. Marianne,

    There is a big difference between something “being extremely complex and difficult to follow” and being right or wrong.
    I had already stated previously, that this “new information” was very hard to articulate, and that it was also difficult to comprehend.

    When I have asked you questions, it has not necessarily been “putting you to the test”, but rather has more to do with what I had stated earlier regarding “advise”, which can be taken or tossed aside.

    If I simply tell you something, you can choose to receive it or not.
    However if I lead you down a path, where by logical extension you arrive at “the answer”, it carries far more weight than if I simply told you.

    I am curious though as to why you chose to not answer my last question directly, but chose instead to simply provide scripture and “start” at Romans 11:13. instead of Romans 11:1.?

    I will comment on Romans 11. and the aspect of being “grafted into Christ” tomorrow.

    .

  62. sorry , Marianne, pls delete this ,thanks ! something wrong with this person

  63. sorry , Marianne, pls delete this ,thanks ! something wrong with this person

  64. this thread need to be deleted .sorry !

  65. Marianne,

    I will present the following only once. And “YES” it is probably too long.
    If you don’t agree then that’s fine, I won’t press the issue and attempt to convince you as I did regarding Ishmael (the Firstborn) and Isaac (the Second born)
    I took the liberty to comment on Romans 11:1-16. where if by then, what Paul is saying is not understood, it would be pointless to continue any further.

    Regarding Romans 11.
    The “first” thing that must be established regarding the “context” of Romans 11, is what had just been stated previously by Paul within Romans 10.
    Paul has just said in his chastisement while referring to ethnic Israel, in 10:16.;

    “But “THEY” have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” (Isaiah 53:1.)
    17. “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
    18. “But I say, have “THEY” not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” (Psalms 19:4.)
    19. “But I say, did “ISRAEL” not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke YOU (ISRAEL) to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move YOU (ISRAEL) to anger by a foolish nation.” (Deuteronomy 32:21.)
    20. “But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.” (Isaiah 65:1.)
    21. “But to “ISRAEL” he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people (ISRAEL).” (Isaiah 65:2.)

    Above Paul is clearly chastising “ethnic Israel” by utilizing God’s Word from the Old Testament in “context”.
    He is saying that “THEY” have NOT believed the “Gospel” that “Jesus is the Christ”.
    And though “Faith” comes by “hearing” and that “hearing” by the Word of God, THEY haven’t HEARD, even though THEY had been told by Moses in Deuteronomy 32:21., and by in Isaiah 65:1. “what” would transpire between THEM and God, THEY are still a “disobedient and contrary people” (Isaiah 65:2.).

    The “second” thing that must be acknowledged and understood is that the “majority of Jewish individuals” (both when Paul wrote this epistle and today), DON’T believe that “Jesus is the Promised Christ”. Hence “why” it was Paul’s desire to save “some” of them, (Romans 10:1. and 11:14.).

    So having established that “context” let’s look at Romans 11: 1 through 5.

    1. “I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
    2. “God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,”
    3. “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? (1 Kings 19:10. and 14.)
    4. “But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal” (1 Kings 19:18.)
    5. “Even so then, “at this present time” there is a “REMNANT” according to the ELECTION OF GRACE.”

    Now, “what” Paul is expressing above in “context”, is that within ethnic Israel, there are “exceptions”.
    That there have been, and are, “INDIVIDUALS” from ethnic Israel that God has chosen, called and saved by GRACE, that have not been CAST AWAY, or rejected.

    He starts above with himself as being a prime example, being an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, and from the tribe of Benjamin, then continues on with the seven thousand from 1 Kings 19:18..

    At the time that Paul wrote this, there were thousands of Jews that God had chosen, called through GRACE, who believed in Jesus as being the Christ, yet at that time, “compared” to the totality of the “population” of ethnic Israel, he states that they are only a “REMNANT”.

    Romans 11:6.;
    “And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”

    Here Paul is expressing a dichotomy.
    He is saying to believers in Jesus, that neither he or the seven thousand, or any of those Jewish individuals that would fall into the above category of the “REMNANT” were saved by their own ability to fulfill the Mosaic Law. All were chosen to be saved by God solely through GRACE.

    The actual Greek Morphological text renders this verse differently than the N.K.J.V. above.

    “εἰ δὲ χάριτι οὐκέτι ἐξ ἔργων ἐπεὶ ἡ χάρις οὐκέτι γίνεται χάρις”.

    Which in turn would transliterate as,
    “ei de chariti ouketi ex ergōn epei hē charis ouketi ginetai charis”.

    And be translated as,
    “and if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace no longer becomes grace.”

    Or in other words;
    “If “Jesus is the “end” of the Mosaic Law for righteousness”, (Romans 10:4.) and God’s Superior Righteousness is now received as a free gift through GRACE, then the hope of attaining righteousness, (where no mere man can be justified or declared to be righteous through the Mosaic Law) is no longer through works of the Mosaic Law. If it were, then GRACE wouldn’t be GRACE.

    Romans 11:7.;
    “What then? “ISRAEL” has not obtained what “IT” seeks; but “THE ELECT” have obtained “IT”, and the rest were blinded.”

    Here Paul, in still speaking of the same group of specific people, expresses a “distinction” between these people, where from this group “the MAJORITY”
    (who are JEWISH INDIVIDUALS that Paul refers to as ISRAEL) who have NOT obtained “IT”, but others, (who are ALSO JEWISH INDIVIDUALS) that Paul refers to as “THE ELECT” who have obtained “IT”.

    The question here is;
    “What was “IT” that the majority of ethnic Israel had sought that it DIDN’T OBTAIN, but the “ELECT” (the eklogḗ – the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world (God’s foreknowledge) He decreed his blessings to certain (INDIVIDUAL) persons) DID OBTAIN?”

    The answer, would be, “That through GOD’S GRACE, the “ELECT” that were gleaned from ethnic Israel obtained, Justification, Vindication, Reconciliation, Righteousness and Salvation” by their Faith and Belief in JESUS CHRIST.

    Therefore Paul is saying that, “Ethnic Israel has NOT obtained the “tsĕdaqah” which it has sought through the Mosaic Law, but by the act of “God’s free will”, the “ELECT”, (eklogē – those INDIVIDUALS that God has chosen) HAVE obtained “Gods righteousness” through GRACE, and that the rest of those JEWISH INDIVIDUALS that WEREN’T chosen from “ethnic Israel”, were blinded.”
    Which is confirmed within the very next verse.

    Romans 11:8.;
    “Just as it is written: “God has given “THEM” a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear,To this very day.”
    (Deuteronomy 29:4. and Isaiah 29:10.)

    The “THEM” above is referring to the “REMAINING INDIVIDUALS” of ethnic Israel that God DIDN’T choose by “ELECTION – eklogḗ”.

    These “individuals” DON’T believe that Jesus is the Christ. “They” are NOT Saved or born of God’s Spirit, and “They” are NOT a New Second Creation.

    Romans 11:9.,10.;
    “And David says: “Let “THEIR” table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to “THEM”. Let “THEIR” eyes be darkened, so that “THEY” do not see, And bow down “THEIR” back always.”” (Psalms 69:22.,23.)

    Above Paul is utilizing what David says in Psalms 69:22.,23. to further support what God had said within Deuteronomy 29:4., 32:21. and Isaiah 29:10., 53:1. and 65:2..

    Romans 11:11.;
    “I say then, have THEY stumbled that THEY should fall? Certainly not! But through THEIR fall, to provoke THEM to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.”

    When Paul is referring to the “THEY”, “THEIR” and “THEM” above, he is referring to “the REMAINING INDIVIDUALS of ethnic Israel” that have still NOT believed in the “Gospel that Jesus is the Christ”.

    The first “fall” in this verse is from the Greek, πέσωσιν – piptō, or “perish and be lost”.
    The second “fall” is from the Greek, παραπτώματι – paraptōma, or “transgression, or deviation from truth and uprightness”.

    Therefore Paul has just questioned, “I say then, have ”the REMAINING INDIVIDUALS of ethnic Israel” stumbled that THEY should “perish and be lost”?
    And he answers that question with a resounding “Certainly not!”

    So what would have to occur for any of these “remaining Jewish individuals” to NOT “perish and be lost”?
    Like anyone else on this planet, that “ Jewish Individual” would have to accept JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR.

    Romans 11:12.;
    “Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more “THEIR FULLNESS”!”

    Now, where many people make the mistake here, is by presuming that when Paul refers to what is ethnic Israel as a WHOLE, they then conclude that the “how much more their fullness” is also referring to encompassing the WHOLE of ethnic Israel, rather than it referring to specific INDIVIDUALS.

    That error is tantamount to me saying, “I am a Gentile and have been called by God and saved by Grace, subsequently then, ALL GENTILES have been called by God and saved by Grace”, which is absurd.

    If that were the case, then what would be the point of Paul stating twice within Romans 10:1. and 11:14. that he hopes to save SOME OF THEM?
    That understanding would ALSO contradict Isaiah 10:22,23..

    What Paul is saying is;
    That if a former “unbelieving individual” of ethnic Israel that had “fallen” and been “cast away”, NOW has Faith and Believes in JESUS being the CHRIST, then “how much more THEIR (that specific individuals) fullness” in being accepted as a new second creation within the Body of JESUS.

    Romans 11:13.,14.;
    “For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy “THOSE” who are my flesh and save some of “THEM”.”

    “THOSE” and “THEM” obviously referring to Paul’s “flesh” or his genealogical heritage of “ethnic Israel” that DON’T yet have Faith and Belief in JESUS.

    Romans 11:15.;
    “For if THEIR being CAST AWAY is the reconciling of the world, what will THEIR acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?”

    Again, what would have to occur for any of these “remaining Jewish individuals” to NOT be “CAST AWAY” and receive “LIFE rather than DEATH”?
    Like anyone else on this planet, that “ Jewish Individual” would have to accept JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR.

    So Paul is stating that it is his desire to “SAVE some individuals of ethnic Israel” that have been CAST AWAY, and he is telling the Gentiles believer’s, that when those Jewish individuals become SAVED, “THEY” will also receive LIFE rather than DEATH, (where “death” would be their current condition, just like anyone else on the planet without the SAVING GRACE OF JESUS, because these non-believers, [Jewish or not] are still in THEIR SIN).

    Paul is NOT contradicting what he says within Romans 11:1. regarding being “CAST AWAY”.
    All individuals, “JEW’S and GENTILE’S” must be Saved by JESUS CHRIST and HIS GRACE.
    Those that DON’T accept JESUS as their SAVIOUR are LOST period.

    Now it is here that we arrive at what is the “point of contention”.
    Whether we are grafted into “non-believing ethnic Israel” that is STILL IN THEIR SIN, or whether CHRISTIANS are grafted INTO CHRIST.

    Romans 11:16.;
    “For if the FIRSTFRUIT is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the ROOT is holy, so are the BRANCHES.”

    So what have we been told by Paul, (from Romans 10:16. through to Romans 11:16.), where Paul has utilized the Word of God from past Prophets, regarding “ethnic Israel”?

    That “THEY” have not ALL obeyed the gospel, Isaiah 53:1..

    That “THEY” didn’t understand what Moses said in Deuteronomy 32:21., or what God said through Isaiah within Isaiah 65:1..

    That “THEY” are a “disobedient and contrary people”, Isaiah 65:2..

    That God has given “THEM” a spirit of Stupor, Eyes that they should not see, and Ears that they should not hear,to this very day.” Deuteronomy 29:4. and Isaiah 29:10..

    That “THEIR” table has become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and recompense to “THEM”. And “THEIR” eyes have been darkened, so that “THEY” do not see, and that “THEY” bow down “THEIR” back always. Psalms 69:22.,23..
    Furthermore, we know that ethnic Israel by NOT believing that JESUS is the CHRIST, have NOT been SAVED, are NOT born of the SPIRIT, are NOT a New second Creation in CHRIST, and have NOT received the FORGIVENESS of HIS SHED BLOOD, so THEY are then consequently, STILL IN THEIR SIN.

    So HOW is it possible for THEM to be a HOLY FIRSTFRUIT?

    We know that God had made it clear, that for ethnic Israel to be considered to be a “HOLY PEOPLE”, they first had to FULFILL the Mosaic Law Covenant.

    This without error execution of the Mosaic Law Covenant was their responsibility and subsequent conditionality, for that “HOLY PEOPLE” designation to come to fruition.

    There is Exodus 19:6., where God says that ethnic Israel will be a HOLY NATION “IF” they “will obey His voice and keep His Covenant”, Exodus 19:5..

    There is Deuteronomy 7:6., where Moses tells ethnic Israel that they are a HOLY PEOPLE “IF” they “love God and keep His Commandments to a thousand generations” Deuteronomy 7:9., and “keep the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments” Deuteronomy 7:11..

    There is Deuteronomy 14:2., which is in the midst of a long and extensive list of conditionality which must be fulfilled, as is Deuteronomy 26:19., and 28:9., which is followed by Deuteronomy 28:13., “IF” ethnic Israel “listens to the Commandments of God, and observes them ALL, and does them ALL”.

    Ethnic Israel was UNABLE to accomplish this, so THEY by NOT believing in JESUS, are NOT a HOLY PEOPLE. (See 1 Peter 2:7-10.)

    JESUS CHRIST IS HOLY.
    HE was the very FIRSTFRUIT of man TO BE HOLY.

    JESUS was raised on Reishit Katzir the day following the first day of Unleavened Bread, the “beginning of the Harvest” and the “Feast of FIRSTFRUITS”.

    Paul refers to JESUS as the FIRSTFRUITS again, within 1 Corinthians 15:20-23.
    And he refers to believers in Christ as “firstfruits” within 1 Corinthians 16:15., as does James in James 1:18.

    All of this is relevant to “FIRSTBORN” as well.
    Where Paul refers to JESUS as FIRSTBORN in Romans 8:29.
    The “FIRSTBORN over all of creation” in Colossians 1:15. and 18.

    The author of Hebrews calls JESUS the FIRSTBORN in Hebrews 1:6., and 12:23.
    And John refers to JESUS as the FIRSTBORN from the dead within Revelation 1:5.

    CHRISTIAN’S are grafted INTO CHRIST, NOT ethnic Israel.
    .

  66. Marianne and dmcal52,

    Look, before I leave here, I would like to say this;

    In 1 Corinthians 15:20. Paul says;
    “But now Christ is RISEN FROM THE DEAD, and has BECOME the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep.”

    In Colossians 1:18. Paul says;
    “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”

    In Revelation 1:5., John says;
    “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,”

    Yet we know, (or at least should know) that JESUS wasn’t “LITERALLY”, the “first to be raised” from the DEAD.

    In the Old First Testament there is…..

    1 Kings 17:8-24., where we have Elijah raising a child that was DEAD.

    in 2 Kings 4:8-37., we have Elisha, raising a child that was DEAD.

    In 2 Kings 13:21., we have a man that was DEAD, (when while in the process of being buried in Elisha’s tomb), he touched the bones of Elisha and was raised from the DEAD.

    In the New Second Testament there is….

    Within Matthew 9:18-26., Mark 5:22-43., and Luke 8:41-56., we have JESUS raising Jairus’s 12 year old daughter FROM the DEAD.

    Then in John 11:1-44., JESUS raises His dear friend Lazarus of Bethany, FROM the DEAD.

    So above there a 5 examples which serve to demonstrate that JESUS wasn’t “LITERALLY”, the “first to be raised” FROM the DEAD.

    However the Word of God is true, therefore “JESUS was and is, “THE FIRSTFRUITS and FIRSTBORN” FROM the DEAD.
    Which then means, that THIS is signifying something OTHER than the 5 examples above.

    When you both come to understand WHAT the “FIRSTFRUITS and FIRSTBORN FROM the DEAD” actually means, and HOW it was possible for JESUS to receive the designation of being without “BLEMISH” or “SPOT” and as being “WITHOUT SIN”, (2 Corinthians 5:21., Hebrews 4:15., 7:26,27., 9:14., 1 Peter 1:19., 2:22., and 1 John 3:5.), while HE was ALSO born under the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 4:4.), then you just might make the connection that, JESUS was the very FIRST Man (as the Second Adam) to ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING that NO man had done before.

    GOOD LUCK.

    • gm

      yes we understand that. you are stating the obvious

      • Then “WHY” do YOU and dmcal52, still believe that we are “grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel” rather than INTO CHRIST.

        Ethnic Israel is still in THEIR SIN and THEY are still UNDER the MOSAIC LAW.
        CHRISTIAN’S (both JEW and GENTILE), have through JESUS and HIS GRACE, been REDEEMED form the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 3:13., & 4:4,5.)

        In my experience the only people that believe that CHRISTIAN’S are GRAFTED into ISRAEL are “LAW KEEPERS” and those that DON’T actually believe that JESUS created HIS OWN “NEW COVENANT”.

        And it has also been my experience that debating with these people is pointless.
        So I will pray for You and for dmcal52.
        But this is my last post here.

        .

        • that misconception of yours has been addressed already

        • Hello GM,

          You said:
          “Then “WHY” do YOU and dmcal52, still believe that we are “grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel” rather than INTO CHRIST.”

          Please show me where i have ever said that I was grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel. My life is in Christ.

          • I already explained that “grafting in” refers to gentiles being grafted into the wild olive branch ( above)… that described a relationship between gentiles and jews, as without judaism, there would be no christianity….christianity has Israel roots in faith

            salvation is seen as the vine ( Jesus) and the branches (saved believers)

  67. I believe that this is true. There are many people who believe this.

  68. For dmcal52,

    Though I had stated that I would not post here anymore, I feel that the weight of what I have tried to convey regarding “Firsts and Seconds” and the significance that God places upon them, overrides my previous comment, and I will leave with this.

    First I would like to apologize to You for jumping to the conclusion that you were also a “Law-Keeper”.
    When you didn’t contend for the faith and disagree with Marianne and her beliefs, I assumed that this was also your belief as well.
    It has been my experience that ONLY “Law-Keepers” hold to the belief that “Christians are grafted into ethnic Israel, rather than into Christ”.
    (What Law-Keepers don’t appear to understand is, that this belief of being “grafted into ethnic Israel” holds true for them, and that they have made that choice of their own accord.)

    Where she and I reached an impasse, was regarding her belief that “Abram had been informed by YHVH about “Isaac” long before ever conceiving “Ishmael” with Hagar” where her belief is without foundation, and contradicts scripture.

    Paul says in Galatians 3:8.;
    “And the SCRIPTURE, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the GOSPEL to Abraham beforehand, saying, “IN YOU ALL THE NATIONS SHALL BE BLESSED.”

    Above Paul is referring to “Specific Verses of God’s Word within the Old First Covenant text”, where “ABRAHAM received the knowledge of the Gospel”.

    And these “Specific Verses” which state, “IN YOU ALL THE NATIONS SHALL BE BLESSED” were NOT revealed to ABRAM, but only to ABRAHAM, and they occur within Genesis 18:18. & 22:18., and are 13 years after Abram and the slave Hagar had “Ishmael”.

    It is only when God reveals the significance of “Firsts and Seconds” that you then understand “why” ABRAM’S name HAD to be changed to ABRAHAM BEFORE this GOSPEL could be revealed to him.

    Secondly, in respect to answering your following 3 questions;
    ”What in the world is your point? Do you ever just get to the point of anything? What are you trying to prove?”
    Though I do not understand “why” you appear to be so upset, I will provide for you the “definition for rhetoric” and ask you a few questions of my own.

    Primarily, “rhetoric” describes a “skill or ability” that an individual possesses, which allows for them to either speak or write effectively by utilizing various verbal or compositional techniques.”

    Two Questions for You;

    If by providing Biblical evidence to a Jewish individual, (which a Christian would consider to be conclusive evidence that Jesus is the Christ), and that Jewish individual still does not comprehend that evidence, does their inability to understand that “rhetoric” diminish its truth whatsoever?
    No. The truth is still the truth, and “Jesus is indeed the Christ”, whether that Jewish individual understands or not.

    Likewise, if by providing Biblical evidence to an individual that is a Jehovah Witness, (which a Christian would consider to be conclusive evidence that Jesus is NOT the Archangel Michael), and that Jehovah Witness individual does not comprehend that evidence, does their inability to understand that “rhetoric” diminish its truth whatsoever?
    No. The truth is still the truth, and “Jesus is NOT the Archangel Michael” whether that Jehovah Witness understands or not.

    To answer your questions;

    The “POINT” that I had attempted to convey “IS”, that the significance that God places on this aspect of “Firsts and Seconds”, is an alternative way to verify many interpretations as to being valid or in error.
    They “testify” and serve as a “Second Witness”, and because of their complexity, it requires a process of explanation to describe how they work.

    And I do not mean to offend you at all, but whether you are “able or unable” to understand as to how “Firsts and Seconds” can be employed as a instrument to do this, does not diminish their truth whatsoever either.

    However for example, the significance of “Firsts and Seconds” regarding “Hagar & Ishmael and Sarah & Isaac” within Genesis, are carried over into Paul’s explanation of “What” they all “symbolically represent” within Galatians 4:21-31..
    And if you personally contend with individuals that still attempt to observe the Mosaic Law, then the following will hopefully assist you in that endeavour, for they are the most critical assemblage of passages to understand in respects to “FAITH and PROMISE vs. MOSAIC LAW”.

    ABRAM through the slave Hagar conceived “Ismael” FIRST.
    ABRAHAM through the freeborn Sarah, (his legitimate wife) conceived “Isaac” SECOND.

    As a symbolic foreshadowing, “Ishmael” represents God the Fathers FIRSTborn son, “ethnic Israel”, (Exodus 4:22.)
    This is confirmed by Paul within Galatians 4:21-31..

    As a symbolic foreshadowing, “Isaac” represents God the Fathers PROMISE and “SECOND Born and Only Begotten Son JESUS”, (Genesis 22:2.,12.,16., Hebrews 11:17. and John 1:18., 3:16.,18. and 1 John 4:9.).
    This is ALSO confirmed by Paul within Galatians 4:21-31..

    Now you are correct were you say that “Hagar & Ishmael” and “Sarah & Isaac” symbolically represent two different Covenants.

    “Hagar & Ishmael” being the FIRST, symbolically represent the, “Old First Covenant”.
    And “Sarah & Isaac” being the SECOND, symbolically represent the “New Second Covenant”.

    (This ties in with “ethnic Israel” being God the Fathers FIRSTborn son, and “JESUS” being the SECOND Born and Only Begotten Son.

    Ishmael (FIRST) vs. Isaac (SECOND).
    Ethnic Israel (FIRST) vs. JESUS (SECOND).
    Old (FIRST) Covenant vs. New (SECOND) Covenant.
    Mosaic Law (FIRST) vs. FAITH, PROMISE & GRACE (SECOND).
    FIRST Adam vs. SECOND Adam.
    And it’s important to note here, that “Ishmael and Isaac” are two completely SEPARATE individuals born 14 years apart, and that it is virtually impossible to be both “Ishmael and Isaac” at the SAME TIME.)

    But what else does Paul tell us within Galatians 4:21-31.?

    He tells us that “Ishmael” being the FIRST, was born through “slavery” and of the “flesh”, (in a futile human effort to fulfill God the Fathers Promise).

    But that “Isaac” being SECOND, was born through “freedom” by “Divine Intervention and SPIRIT” which fulfilled “God the Fathers Promise” (Gal.4:22,23.)

    He tells us that these “Two Children” and their respective “Mothers” are symbolic, and that they also represent the “Two (FIRST & SECOND) Covenants”, where the “one”, (the FIRST Hagar conceiving Ishmael) symbolically represents “Mount Sinai” (where the Mosaic Law was given) and “bondage”, (or the Mosaic Law itself). (Gal.4:24.)

    Paul then says that the “SLAVE” Hagar, symbolically represents “Mount Sinai”, (where the Mosaic Law was given) and that SHE parallels that of the “earthly Jerusalem” which is in “bondage or slavery” with HER Children, (because those “Children” do not believe that “JESUS is the CHRIST” so “they” still “walk in” and “observe the Mosaic Law”). Or, that these “Children” are still, (like Ishmael) “FIRSTBORNS”. (Gal.4:25.)

    Paul then says to those that DO believe that “JESUS is the CHRIST”, “BUT the Jerusalem that is ABOVE is FREE”.

    Here Paul is expressing a DISTINCTION, where as opposed to the “earthly Jerusalem” that is in “bondage or slavery” with HER “Children”, the “CHILDREN” of the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM are instead FREE.

    And that for those that DO believe that “JESUS is the CHRIST”, it is the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM that is “those Children’s” MOTHER. (Gal.4:26.)

    Therefore being DISTINCT, “these Children” that DO believe that “JESUS is the CHRIST” (are like Isaac) and are SECOND BORN, (re; John 3:6. and believers becoming a “New Second Born Creation”.)

    Paul then quotes from Isaiah 54:1. within Galatians 4:27., where in context, this would have relevance to all of the above.

    Now, we have “Hagar & Ishmael” who we have just been told, that in being the FIRST, “Ishmael” was born through “slavery” and of the “flesh”, (in a futile human effort to fulfill God the Fathers Promise) and that THEY “symbolically represent”, the “Old FIRST Covenant”.

    They also represent “Mount Sinai”(where the Mosaic Law was given), and the “earthly Jerusalem” which is in “bondage or slavery” with HER Children, because those “Children” do not believe that “JESUS is the CHRIST” so “they” still “walk in” and “observe the Mosaic Law”.

    Therefore we can also reasonably conclude that “Ishmael” symbolically represents ALL of “FIRSTborn ethnic Israel” as well.

    So “WHO” then are the “CHILDREN of the DESOLATE”?
    (Remember in context, that we only have “Ishmael and Isaac” to choose from here.)

    SARAH was the one that was “BARREN”.
    SHE was the one that required “Divine Intervention” to give birth by the SPIRIT to “Isaac” and to FULFILL God’s PROMISE.
    (Ishmael was simply born through “slavery” and of the “flesh”, in a futile human effort to fulfill God the Fathers Promise.)
    Therefore SARAH is the one that can “REJOICE”, for SHE was also the one that had the legitimate HUSBAND in ABRAHAM as well.

    This means that “Hagar & Ishmael” and the “FIRSTborn Children” that they symbolically represent, ARE “the CHILDREN of the DESOLATE”!

    Now Paul makes another DISTINCTION.

    He now compares “the CHILDREN” that are the OPPOSITE of the above, THOSE that DON’T partake in observing the Mosaic Law, to being like ISAAC, (the Second Born) and says, “Now WE, BRETHREN, AS ISAAC WAS, are CHILDREN of PROMISE.” (Gal.4:28.)

    So “PROMISE” is obviously the antithesis to the “MOSAIC LAW”.

    Those CHILDREN that “Live by Faith” and “Walk in the SPIRIT” rather than in the “Mosaic Law” are considered to be LIKE ISAAC.

    ISAAC was ABRAHAM and SARAH’S CHILD of PROMISE, (JESUS was and is the ultimate FULFILLMENT of PROMISE) and the CHILDREN that “Live by Faith” and “Walk in the SPIRIT” are considered in God the Fathers eyes, to be the “figurative CHILDREN of ABRAHAM”.

    Galatians 3:6-9.;
    “Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS. Know ye therefore that THEY which are of FAITH, the SAME ARE the CHILDREN of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through FAITH, preached before the GOSPEL unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then THEY which be of FAITH ARE BLESSED with FAITHFUL Abraham.”

    What was Abraham BLESSED with?

    He was Blessed with RIGHTEOUSNESS because of his FAITH.
    (Nehemiah 9:7,8., Romans 4:3.,9.,11.,13.,16.,19.,20-22., Galatians 3:6., and James 2:23.)

    Therefore, if an individual is to be considered to be a “figurative CHILD, of Abraham’s like ISAAC”, and receive the same BLESSING of RIGHTEOUSNESS that Abraham received, then they certainly CAN’T participate in the Mosaic Law and LIVE LIKE ISHMAEL or one of the Children of the Desolate.

    Because as Paul says in Galatians 3:12.;
    “And the (MOSAIC) LAW is NOT OF FAITH: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”

    So as individual’s, we CHOOSE to be either ISHMAEL (a FIRSTborn) or ISAAC (a SECOND Born), and God allows us to make our own decisions.

    Then Paul says something quite interesting within Galatians 4:29., where he refers back to Genesis 21:9.;
    “But, as he (ISHMAEL) who was BORN according to the FLESH then persecuted him (ISAAC) who was born according to the SPIRIT, even so it is now.”

    What Paul is referring to here, (and if Law-Keepers actually understood these passages) they would realize that Paul makes mention, numerous times, to those that he refers to as “FALSE BRETHREN”.

    It is these “False Brethren” that had been plaguing Paul throughout his ministry, who persecuted THOSE CHILDREN that LIVE by FAITH in the SPIRIT, to follow and observe the Mosaic Law.

    (This is the whole “point” of the book of Galatians. See 1:6-9., 2:4,5. referencing Acts 15:1,2. and 5. as well as 2:11-21., 3:1-5. etc. etc.)

    And Paul utilizes ISHMAEL and ISAAC to symbolically represent his current ongoing struggle, by basically saying “that as it was then, as it is now”.

    Yet, “this” is also a “FORESHADOWING”, for there are ISHMAEL’S today, (the Hebrew Roots Movement) that are trying to convince the ISAAC’S that “LIVE by FAITH and SPIRIT” to also “OBSERVE the MOSAIC LAW”.

    So what does Paul say will happen to these “ISHMAEL’S” of his time, (and those Hebrew Root Movement individuals of today)?

    Well he quotes from Genesis 21:10..
    Galatians 4:30.;
    “Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “CAST OUT the BONDWOMAN (Hagar) AND HER SON (Ishmael), for the son of the bondwoman SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON (Isaac) OF THE FREEWOMAN (Sarah).”

    Again, we know from all of the above, that with “Hagar & Ishmael” being FIRST, that “Ishmael” was born through “slavery” and of the “flesh”, (in a futile human effort to fulfill God the Fathers Promise) and that THEY “symbolically represent”, the “Old FIRST Covenant”.

    We also know that THEY represent “Mount Sinai”(where the Mosaic Law was given), and the “earthly Jerusalem” which is in “bondage or slavery” with HER Children, and that “Ishmael” symbolically represents all of “FIRSTborn ethnic Israel” as well.

    And Paul (and Sarah) say that THEY will be CAST OUT and NOT be HEIR’S with ISAAC.

    What is so significant to the above, is that God AGREED with Sarah, and told Abraham to listen to her, and do what she says to do. (Genesis 21:12.)

    So the Children of ABRAM and HAGAR, those that are “ISHMAEL’S” and “Children of the Desolate” will be CAST OUT.

    Paul then makes another DISTINCTION within verse 4:31.;
    “So then, BRETHREN, we are NOT CHILDREN of the BONDWOMAN, BUT of the FREE.”
    OR…
    BRETHREN, we are NOT ISHMAEL and a Child of Hagar that Lives by the Mosaic Law, WE will NOT be CAST OUT because WE are like ISAAC, Born of SPIRIT by SARAH and FREE.

    And this is “WHY” Paul says what he does within Galatians 5:1.;
    “STAND FAST therefore in the LIBERTY by which CHRIST has made “US” FREE, and DO NOT be ENTANGLED again with a YOKE OF BONDAGE.”

    Where by all that is recorded within the Book of Galatians, (and within other epistle’s), the “YOKE OF BONDAGE” is referring to the MOSAIC LAW.

    Above I had said, “What Law-Keepers don’t appear to understand is, that this belief of being “grafted into ethnic Israel” holds true for them, and that they have made that choice of their own accord.”
    By observing the Mosaic Law, these individuals have CHOSEN to be a FIRSTborn like ISHMAEL and have grafted themselves back into “ethnic Israel”.

    Those that LIVE BY FAITH and WALK IN THE SPIRIT are the “ISAAC’S” of ABRAHAM and SARAH who rely solely on JESUS as the PROMISE, and THEY are DISTINCT from the ISHMAEL’S of FLESH.

    Habakkuk 2:4.;
    “Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: BUT the JUST SHALL LIVE BY HIS FAITH.”

    And this is “why” Paul refers to the Mosaic Law as “the knowledge of sin”, and “the Law of sin and death”, (i.e., Romans 3:20. & 8:2.).
    “The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”, (1 Corinthians 15:56.)
    “the ministration of death” and “the ministration of condemnation”, (i.e., 2 Corinthians 3:7. & 3:9.).

    .

    • gregg

      I answered you already with scripture about Ishmael and Issac

      dmcal and I have already read your argument..the question is why are you repeating yourself and what is the main reason you present it? do you think we have not read the bible

      the law is not abolished, it is just made clear with grace

      http://www.eliyah.com/protorah.html

      excerpt

      Paul says that the doers of the Law will be justified and those who break it will be judged.

      Romans 2:12 – For as many as have sinned without Law will also perish without Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law will be judged by the Law 13 (for not the hearers of the Law [are] just in the sight of Yahweh, but the doers of the Law will be justified;

      The word that is translated “without Law” here is word #460 which means “not amenable to the Jewish/Mosaic Law”. (See Thayers and Strong’s lexicon). Paul says that we know His will and approve the things that are excellent when instructed out of the Law.

      Romans 2:17 – Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the Law, and make your boast in Yahweh, 18 and know [His] will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the Law.

      Here he says that when we break the Law, we dishonor Yahweh and blaspheme His name.

      Romans 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the Law, do you dishonor Yahweh through breaking the Law? 24 For “the name of Yahweh is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

      Here Paul twice states that we learn what sin is from the Law. This backs up the statement in 1John 3:4 that Sin is transgression of the Law.

      Romans 3:20 – Therefore by the deeds of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the Law [is] the knowledge of sin.

      Romans 7:7 – What shall we say then? [Is] the Law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the Law had said, “You shall not covet.”

      Here is a key scripture proving that Paul believed that thru faith we do not make the Law void, but rather we establish the Law (To cause or make to stand, #2476).

      Romans 3:31 – Do we then make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

      Here is another key scripture like the one above proving that Paul did not believe that once we are under grace, that we can continue to sin (break the Law):

      Romans 6:15 – What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin [leading] to death, or of obedience [leading] to righteousness?

      Here Paul is equating “the Law” with “the commandment” and stating his opinion of them:

      Romans 7:12 – Therefore the Law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

  69. So you either chose not to read the above commentary of Galatians 4:21. through 5:1., or it was all simply over your head?

    Within the first 4 verses, Paul says Abraham had 2 sons, and that “ISHMAEL” symbolically represents the “Old First Covenant of the MOSAIC LAW”.
    Then after explaining the differences between “ISAAC” and “ISHMAEL” he says in Galatians 5:1. “For believers to NOT be snared again by the MOSAIC LAW!”
    Which would then render all that you believe to be in error, because it contradicts what Paul says within these verses.

    If Paul also says in Romans 2:16.;
    “in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL.”, (which was the GOSPEL that Paul was taught by JESUS CHRIST- Galatians 1:11,12.), then I believe that it is imperative that the GOSPEL that Paul taught be understood.

    .

    • ok

      • Well, that was a rather indifferent and cavalier response to something so vitally important.

        Can you answer the three (3) questions below?

        First, thirteen (13) years after ISHMAEL had been born God (‘Elohiym) says to ABRAHAM in Genesis 17:15,16.;

        “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

        If ABRAM had been informed (by either YHVH or ‘Elohiym) about SARAI giving birth to ISAAC prior to this specific verse, then “why” would (who is now ABRAHAM) have “fallen on his face and laughed” and responded in his heart to this information with verse 17:17. (?)

        “Shall a child be born to a man who is one hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a child?”

        YHVH could have had ABRAM and SARAI give birth to ISAAC when he was 75 and SARAI was 65, right when they all came out of Haran, but that would have defeated the purpose and necessity of “Divine Intervention”.
        Since Abraham lived to be 175 and Sarah lived to be 127, 75 and 65 are simply middle age for the both of them and conceiving a child naturally was still a biological possibility.
        The whole point of what ABRAHAM said above in 17:17., was that he had questioned in his mind and heart as to the unlikelihood of this birth taking place “naturally”. Which meant then, that the only way that this birth would occur, would be by “Divine Intervention”, (See Romans 4:16-22.).

        As well, if ABRAM had been informed (by either YHVH or ‘Elohiym) about SARAI giving birth to ISAAC prior to THIS, then “why” would he have plead for ‘Elohiym to consider ISHMAEL to LIVE before HIM, (?) as he pleads within Genesis 17:18.;
        “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”

        If THIS wasn’t all brand new revelation to ABRAHAM, “why” didn’t he just say, “Yep, You’ve told me all of this before God. No problem we’re on the same page”, rather than pleading for ISMAEL?

        And “what” would have been the point of ‘Elohiym stating in 17:19-21……
        “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget TWELVE PRINCES, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year”
        …… if this was already information that ‘Elohiym had expressed to ABRAM previously?

        If ABRAM had been informed about SARAI giving birth to ISAAC prior to ANY and ALL of THIS, and he instead chose to attempt to fulfill the Promise of ISAAC on his own, we are left with three (3) very important questions:

        1) If ABRAM knew that it was to be SARAH that would bear his son ISAAC, “why” did he bother with HAGAR in the first place?

        2) If ABRAM knew that his Promised son would be called ISAAC, “why” did he name his first child “ISHMAEL”?

        3) Last, (but most importantly), If ABRAM knew that it was to be SARAH that would bear his son ISAAC, and he chose instead to attempt to fulfill the Promise of ISAAC through HAGAR, “Then WHERE was ABRAHAM’S FAITH that he was declared RIGHTEOUS for?”

        Romans 4:19-22.;
        “And NOT being WEAK in FAITH, he (ABRAHAM) did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. He did NOT waver at the PROMISE of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in FAITH, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had PROMISED HE WAS ALSO ABLE TO PERFORM. And therefore “IT” (ABRAHAM’S FAITH) was accounted to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

        .

        • gm

          you are making this too complicated. do not read things into the text

          he and sarah were promised a son

          sarah got impatient and asked abraham to use hagar

          he did what he was told,

          so it was sarah that lacked faith, abraham was just stupid to do what sarah said

          • God the Father, Son and Spirit just happen to be quite complicated.
            Hence why His Word doesn’t read like a child’s “Dick and Jane See Spot Run” book, and “why” there are a plethora of false opinions.

            Our human minds don’t have the capacity of God the Father.
            We can’t possibly figure out His Word on our own.
            But this is unfortunately what most people try to do.
            They read the Bible and then they try to figure it out.

            James says to “ask Father for Wisdom” (James 1:5.), because ONLY the Father can reveal His Truth through His Spirit.

            And it is only in understanding “why” Abram’s name was changed to ABRAHAM, that the understanding and fullness of the New Second Covenant is also revealed.

            Because after this occurrence ABRAHAM obeyed ‘Elohiym’s (JESUS) Commandments.

            Abraham obeyed ‘Elohiym and kept HIS Covenant, (Genesis 17:9-14.) and he, Ishmael and every male of his house, were all circumcised, (Genesis 17:23-27.).

            Abraham obeyed ‘Elohiym and called the Promised Son “ISAAC”, (Genesis 17:19.) and then obeyed by circumcising ISAAC, (Genesis 21:4.).
            This circumcision of ISAAC, is a physical FORESHADOWING of the “CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART”.

            Abraham obeyed ‘Elohiym, (Genesis 21:12.) and CAST OUT Ishmael and Hagar, (Genesis 21:14.).

            After that, ‘Elohiym, then put Abraham to the “proof or test”, and told him to go to a specific place, (Genesis 22:1,2.). Which Abraham obeyed, and when there, he was to sacrifice ISAAC as a burnt offering. And as we know, Abraham obeyed ‘Elohiym, with each and every aspect of that as well, (Genesis 22:3-18.).

            All of the above is relevant to the Commandments of JESUS to His Disciple’s within the New Second Covenant!
            To those that LIVE BY FAITH like ABRAHAM, 430 years before the revelation of the MOSAIC LAW at Sinai.

            This “FIRST and SECOND” knowledge also reveals “why” JACOB (supplanter, or replacement) was renamed as ISRAEL twice in both Genesis 32:28. and 35:10..

            However, if you find the above too complicated, then I just ask for you to do what James says to do.
            Pray to the Father.
            Ask for His Truth.
            And have a receptive heart that is willing to change what you may currently believe, or that prayer is pointless.

            Because until you actually understand “WHEN” ABRAHAM became aware of SARAH being the one who was going to give birth to ISAAC the HEIR, it will be a stumblingstone for you to understand anything further.

            Wishing you Peace and Understanding, (whether you believe that I am sincere or not).

            .

            • I find the bible easy enough to understand…

              • Really?

                Okay then, “Why did the Divine, plant the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Eden?”

                .

                • stop the arguments. god created everything out of his own will. god willed it to be so.

                • Of the tree of the knowledge – thou shalt not eat – This is the first positive precept God gave to man; and it was given as a test of obedience, and a proof of his being in a dependent, probationary state. It was necessary that, while constituted lord of this lower world, he should know that he was only God’s vicegerent, and must be accountable to him for the use of his mental and corporeal powers, and for the use he made of the different creatures put under his care. The man from whose mind the strong impression of this dependence and responsibility is erased, necessarily loses sight of his origin and end, and is capable of any species of wickedness. As God is sovereign, he has a right to give to his creatures what commands he thinks proper. An intelligent creature, without a law to regulate his conduct, is an absurdity; this would destroy at once the idea of his dependency and accountableness. Man must ever feel God as his sovereign, and act under his authority, which he cannot do unless he have a rule of conduct. This rule God gives: and it is no matter of what kind it is, as long as obedience to it is not beyond the powers of the creature who is to obey. God says: There is a certain fruit-bearing tree; thou shalt not eat of its fruit; but of all the other fruits, and they are all that are necessary, for thee, thou mayest freely, liberally eat. Had he not an absolute right to say so? And was not man bound to obey?

        • Abraham and Sarai were laughing because of their lack of faith in God in keeping His promises but when He kept His promises, their faith was strengthen.
          The same thing happens with you and me.

    • Rom 2:16. In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
      1-16 The Jews thought themselves a holy people, entitled to their privileges by right, while they were unthankful, rebellious, and unrighteous. But all who act thus, of every nation, age, and description, must be reminded that the judgment of God will be according to their real character. The case is so plain, that we may appeal to the sinner’s own thoughts. In every willful sin, there is contempt of the goodness of God. And though the branches of man’s disobedience are very various, all spring from the same root. But in true repentance, there must be hatred of former sinfulness, from a change wrought in the state of the mind, which disposes it to choose the good and to refuse the evil. It shows also a sense of inward wretchedness. Such is the great change wrought in repentance, it is conversion, and is needed by every human being. The ruin of sinners is their walking after a hard and impenitent heart. Their sinful doings are expressed by the strong words, “treasuring up wrath.” In the description of the just man, notice the full demand of the law. It demands that the motives shall be pure, and rejects all actions from earthly ambition or ends. In the description of the unrighteous, contention is held forth as the principle of all evil. The human will is in a state of enmity against God. Even Gentiles, who had not the written law, had that within, which directed them what to do by the light of nature. Conscience is a witness, and first or last will bear witness. As they nature. As they kept or broke these natural laws and dictates, their consciences either acquitted or condemned them. Nothing speaks more terror to sinners, and more comfort to saints, than that Christ shall be the Judge. Secret services shall be rewarded, secret sins shall be then punished, and brought to light.
      14-16 To stress the priority of deeds over head-knowledge of the Torah (Law–God’s guidelines) or status as a Jew. Paul pointedly speaks of Gentiles, who by definition don’t have Torah but nevertheless do naturally what the Torah requires, as being for themselves already Torah because thier lives show that the conduct the Torah dictates is “written in their hearts.” The quotation from Jeremiah 31:32 speaks of the “new covenant” which Adonai is to make with Israel, when he says, “I will put my Torah in their inward parts and write it in their hearts (see Hebrews 8:8-12).
      That non-Jews have knowledge of the eternal moral law of God set forth in the day when God passes judgment on people’s inmost secrets, which, according to the Good News as Paul proclaims it and as Yeshua himself proclaimed it Yn 5:22-29), he does… through the Messiah Yeshua. On the day people come to faith they at last admit that God was right and they were wrong. Some of their behavior may prove not blameworthy, so that their consciences… sometimes defend them; but some of their behavior they will then perceive is falling short of God’s standard, and their consciences will accuse them.
      The above interpretation of these verse takes the “day” of v. 16 to be the day of an individual’s salvation, the day he truly puts his trust in God. But an equally plausible understanding is that the “day” is the Day of Judgment at the end of history.
      Just below the surface of these verses is the question of whether it is possible for a person to be saved without explicitly having put his faith in God through the Messiah Yeshua. For vv. 14-15 speak of doing what the Torah requires and having the conduct the Torah dictates written in one’s heart; and it sounds very much as if such a person would in fact be trusting and loving God will all his heart and soul and strength (Deut 6:5; Matt 22:37). Skeptics sometimes ask, “How can God be so unfair as to condemn to hell some “primitive tribesman” who hasn’t even heard of the Bible?” They often raise the issue not out of concern for the “pitiful lost heathen” but as a dodge to justify their own unbelief; the very form of the question assumes that God is unjust and not worthy of their trust, that the “primitive tribesman” is an innocent”noble savage” and God the guilty party.
      Paul carefully skirts answering conclusively. On the one hand, the NT explicitely states, “Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved, whoever does not trust will be condemned (Mrk 16:16); this can be understood to mean that anyone who does not explicitely acknowledge Yeshua will be condemned and not saved, includung all “primitive tribesmen.” Such a reading strengthens the motivtion to evangelize.
      On the other hand, the present verse suggest this line of reasoning: if non-Jews, without the Torah, live up to the light they have, obeying whatever of the Torah God has written in their hearts, then their consciences will sometimes defend them and sometimes accuse them. When their consequences accuse them, they will admit their sin, ask forgiveness from God and from the people sinned against, make restitution where possible, and throw themselves on God’s mercy. If they keep doing that, “Will not the judge of all the earth do right?” (Gen 18:25), even if these people have never heard of Yeshua? Yes, he will, although they will have no assurance of their salvation, since they will not know that Yeshua has made a final atonement for their sins.

  70. Marianne,

    Who’s arguing? I introduced a brand new topic of discussion.
    (This is a discussion forum correct ?)
    You said that YOU “find the bible easy enough to understand”.
    So I asked YOU the question, “Why did the Divine, plant the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in Eden?”

    Your reply of “god created everything out of his own will. god willed it to be so” would be correct, however, that response certainly doesn’t answer the question with any specificity. (Especially from someone who claims what you claim above.)

    Many, (due to the ensuing consequences), consider the Divine in planting the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil within Eden”, to be some form of gross oversight.
    Unfortunately, that is because they don’t understand that “without” that Tree, both Man and Woman would have remained within a perpetual state of innocence, and the Divine’s orchestrated plan would have never had the opportunity to begin in the first place, let alone come to fruition.

    Above within my previous comments where I addressed the definition of Torah/tôwrâh, I had said that the first recorded tôwrâh issued to Man in scripture, would be the Commandments of Genesis 1:28-30..

    Specifically, Genesis 1:28. reads;
    “Then God blessed them, and God SAID to them, “BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY; FILL THE EARTH and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.””

    Now, though the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil” symbolically represents and foreshadows a variety of different things, in this particular instance “IT” acts as an instrument and catalyst for what I have emphasised in capital letters above to take place.

    MAN (Adam) and WOMAN (‘ishshah, female) had no idea that they were even naked until they partook of the fruit of this Tree, (Genesis 2:25. vs. 3:7.).
    So the aspect of any human sexual arousal would have been non-existent between them.
    Procreation and the fulfillment of the Commandment of Genesis 1:28. was previously impossible.

    WOMAN, did not have her name changed to Eve, (Chavvah, life, mother of all living, Genesis 3:20.) until they partook of the fruit of this Tree.
    And procreation itself ONLY took place AFTER both Adam and Eve had been expelled from the Garden of Eden so that they could then, “FILL THE EARTH”.

    Now though there are also numerous other reasons that the Divine planted the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil within Eden”, I’m sorry, but in my opinion, the answer that you provided, (god created everything out of his own will. god willed it to be so) doesn’t validate your claim of understanding the Bible well at all.

    .

  71. Furthermore, in respects to the “Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”, there is also the following;

    In Genesis 2:16,17. we now have the first Commandment from YHVH ‘Elohiym, where this Commandment expands with greater specificity upon the Commandment from ‘Elohiym, in Genesis 1:29..

    Genesis 2:16,17.;
    “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

    (NOTE; Genesis 1:29. was never broken by Adam or Eve, and this Commandment was maintained throughout the lineage of Seth, (Genesis 5:29.) up to when Noah, (who had been declared to be righteous) was told by ‘Elohiym, “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things”, within Genesis 9:3..)

    Now it is AFTER that Commandment of Genesis 2:16,17. had been issued to Man, (when who knows HOW LONG Adam had been ALONE in the garden of Eden), or HOW LONG AFTER that last Commandment was issued to him, that YHVH ‘Elohiym decide that….

    “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him”, (Genesis 2:18.).

    *Notice that during that time, Man/Adam, had NOT eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and neither had satan, tried to tempt him.*

    But instead of making Woman, They mutually create in relationship, all of the animals and birds, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them, and whatever Adam called every living creature, that was their name. He named all the cattle, and all the birds of the air, and every beast of the field, but Adam was still alone, (Genesis 2:19,20.).

    *Notice again, that Adam, had not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and neither had satan, tried to tempt him.*

    Then YHVH ‘Elohiym in relationship, finally made Woman.

    They caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and while he slept, ‘Elohiym took one of his ribs, then closed up the flesh, and He took the rib which He had taken from Adam, and made Woman. And then brought her to Adam, (Genesis 2:21,22.).

    ”And it is here that Adam utters the first spoken prophecy!”
    Adam says in Genesis 2:23,24.;

    “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

    Again, NOT ONCE did satan appear to ADAM and try to TEMPT him in EATING the FRUIT from this TREE.

    1 Timothy 2:14.;
    “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

    satan waited for the Woman to be created, and came in through the back door, so to speak.

    Why then did Adam also partake of the fruit?
    He had told the Woman what YHVH ‘Elohiym had said, and what the consequences would be if they ate the fruit of that Tree, (Genesis 3:2,3.).
    So what was Adam thinking?

    Well, if you take the PROPHECY of what Adam said within Genesis 2:23,24., and correlate it with Ephesians 5:25-33., (where Paul then equates these passages to being a GREAT MYSTERY in respects to JESUS and His CHURCH), then if you understand the Bible through God’s Spirit, you should also see “why” Adam in doing what he did, is a FORESHADOWING, and makes him a “TYPE” of “MESSIAH”.

    While reading Ephesians 5:25-33., keep in mind the aspect of taking upon oneself, the SINS of others, and what Adam did.

    .

  72. Marianne,

    Look, I am sorry if I offended you above.
    However in all fairness, you would have to admit that the answer that you provided could have been supplied by any Sunday school student.

    Now regarding Adam in being a “type” of Messiah.
    (Though I’m aware that it’s your opinion that YHVH is JESUS rather than ‘Elohiym, I ask for you to please bear with me for the moment).

    Adam was TWO ENTIRELY DISTINCT BEINGS.
    The FIRST Adam was created out of flesh and bone in the image of ‘Elohiym, (Genesis 1:26,27.) and was initially, WITHOUT sin, blemish or spot.
    Therefore he could then approach Father God, (YHVH) and have relationship with HIM.
    (This ADAM symbolically foreshadows JESUS before JESUS came to earth to be man’s Saviour.)

    Then AFTER ADAM ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, he became an entirely different being.
    We could say here, that THIS is the SECOND ADAM.
    (This ADAM symbolically foreshadows JESUS when HE came to earth to be man’s Saviour.)

    So what was it that this SECOND ADAM did?
    Though THIS ADAM did NOT initially cause the transgression, he took on that sin that the Woman, his Flesh and Bones, or BODY committed, so that they could still have a physical LIFE TOGETHER.

    What did JESUS do as the SECOND ADAM?
    Though JESUS did NOT initially cause the transgression, HE took on that sin that his Flesh and Bones, or BODY committed, so that they could still have a ETERNAL LIFE TOGETHER.

    How does all of this tie in with the context and narrative of Ephesians 5:25-33.?
    Text from the verses themselves are in brackets and Capital Letters.

    Adam knew that the consequences of eating this fruit was physical death, (as JESUS also knew that His mission would consist of physical death), but Adam, because of his love for his wife, his Bride, he as her Husband, took upon Himself, the transgressions of his Bride, so that they could have a future together, (EVEN AS CHRIST ALSO LOVED THE CHURCH, AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR IT).

    Adam was innocent, satan hadn’t deceived him, nor did he have victory over him, Adam chose to do this from a heart of love.
    JESUS was innocent, satan hadn’t deceived HIM, nor did he have victory over HIM, JESUS chose to do this from a heart of love.
    (HE THAT LOVETH HIS WIFE LOVETH HIMSELF. FOR NO MAN EVER HATED HIS OWN FLESH; BUT NOURISHETH AND CHERISHETH IT, EVEN AS THE LORD THE CHURCH.
    FOR WE ARE MEMBERS OF HIS BODY, OF HIS FLESH, AND OF HIS BONES. FOR THIS CAUSE SHALL A MAN LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, AND SHALL BE JOINED UNTO HIS WIFE, AND THEY TWO SHALL BE ONE FLESH. THIS IS A GREAT MYSTERY: BUT I SPEAK CONCERNING CHRIST AND THE CHURCH.)

    Therefore as a FORESHADOWING, ADAM was a “type” of MESSIAH.

    Now, if you comprehend the above and agree with it, then I would be happy to provide you with some information that would Biblically confirm that it is ‘Elohiym that was manifested as JESUS, and that it is Father God that is YHVH.
    However, if you are not interested, just say so, and I’ll move on.

    .

  73. Okay then, before we look at YHVH and ‘Elohiym.

    First, let’s see if we agree that the following “spiritual principle” is accurate.

    “It is God the Father that first “calls us”, (1 Thessalonians 2:11,12.) and Who “draws us” and “grants us” access to come to JESUS, (John 6:44. & 6:65.).
    And it is then, through our Faith and Belief in JESUS that we through Grace, are then Justified by His Righteousness.”

    So would you agree, that before we can come to Father God, (as John 14:6. would state), we have to FIRST go through, (have Faith and Belief in) JESUS?

    Would you agree that this would be a Truth as a “spiritual principle”- and that the sequence is, JESUS FIRST, then access through JESUS to FATHER GOD?

    .

  74. Okay, so we both agree, that there is a “spiritual principle”, where the SEQUENCE is, JESUS FIRST, then access through JESUS to FATHER GOD.

    Well if that is a TRUTH, wouldn’t Father God also FORESHADOW that SEQUENCE throughout Scripture, just like HE has FORESHADOWED JESUS as the Messiah and Saviour throughout Scripture?

    We have just discovered by the above, that this “foreshadowing of JESUS as Saviour” had been FORESHADOWED right from the beginning while Adam was still in the Garden of Eden.

    So, wouldn’t Father God have also had Moses, (while inspired by the Holy Spirit) scribe this SEQUENCE as well?

    Of course HE would!
    As per Luke 24:44., the whole point and totality of Scripture is about the Divine being manifested into JESUS, where this SEQUENCE and “spiritual principle” would go hand in hand.

    (NOTE; Here is an interesting aspect that MUST be considered regarding Luke 24:44.. It reads as follows within the N.K.J.V.;
    “Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.””

    When JESUS said this, (though He was including them), He wasn’t LIMITING the “Law of Moses” to be JUST what had been revealed at Sinai.
    EVERYTHING that MOSES scribed while inspired through the HOLY SPIRIT, is “tôwrâh” as the Divine Law, Direction and Instruction.
    This can be substantiated by both Psalms 40:7. and Hebrews 10:7..
    Psalms 40:7.;
    “Then said I, Lo, I come: in the VOLUME of the BOOK it is written of ME,”)

    So let’s continue and look at what Moses had SCRIBED regarding YHVH and ‘Elohiym.

    First we know from New Second Covenant text of, John 1:1-3., 1 Corinthians 8:6., Ephesians 3:9., Colossians 1:16,17., and Hebrews 1:2., & 2:10., that JESUS created EVERYTHING, and Moses SCRIBED ‘ELOHIYM FIRST from Genesis 1:1 to 2:3. BEFORE YHVH is mentioned within Genesis 2:4.

    Enoch FORESHADOWS a Gathering or Rapture.
    Enoch walked with ‘Elohiym FIRST, (Genesis 5:22-23.), and it was ‘Elohiym that “took” (laqach, caught up, seized) Enoch.

    And we know that JESUS will come in the clouds, (1 Thessalonians 4:17.) and that it is JESUS that will “take” or “catch up” (harpazō, to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly) those that are accounted worthy, up to God the Father.

    Therefore as a FORESHADOWING, because Enoch walked with ‘Elohiym FIRST, and it was ‘Elohiym that “took” Enoch, ‘Elohiym then took him up to YHVH.

    Then there is Noah.
    Noah, because he walked with ‘Elohiym FIRST, was just, [tsaddiyq] (Genesis 6:9.), therefore he found GRACE in the eyes of YHVH, (Genesis 6:8.).

    And, because Noah obeyed all of the Commandments from ‘Elohiym FIRST, regarding building the Ark, preparing the food for themselves, and all of the birds and animals, consisting of two, both male and female, (Genesis 6:13-22.), then YHVH could declare Noah as being righteous, [also tsaddiyq], (Genesis 7:1. & Hebrews 11:7.).

    It was ONLY then that Noah had relationship with YHVH, and Noah, (after he had been declared as being righteous) then received Commandments from YHVH, where He expanded upon the Commandments from ‘Elohiym, to gather seven of every clean animal, both male and female, and specified that instead of just two birds of male and female, to increase that number to seven as well, (Genesis 7:1-4.), which Noah then fulfilled, (Genesis 7:5.).

    Now do you see a definite pattern emerge and a SEQUENCE of ‘ELOHIYM interacting with an individual FIRST prior to having access to YHVH?

    If so, based upon the “spiritual principle” that we have both agreed upon, wouldn’t all of this FORESHADOW ‘ELOHIYM as being JESUS, rather than YHVH being JESUS?

    .

    • gm

      no you did not prove your point, you cannot manipulate sentence structure to fit your narrative.

      In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1…..this is the father elohim ( along with the son and holy spirit)

      the father comes first…..the son comes second….

      the father is the source of all creation.

      the son just co created and administered the creative process

  75. I could have provided far more, but I thought that the above would prove to be sufficient.

    It’s time for me to move on.

    .

  76. I will leave you with this to muddle over though.

    If JESUS is YHVH, then what was the POINT of Him coming to earth to die for our sins, because that would mean that every ethnic Israelite that DOESN’T believe that “JESUS was/is the Messiah” are SAVED anyway because they ALL call on YHVH’S NAME.

    Joel 2:32.;
    “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHVH) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHVH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHVH) shall call.”

    If JESUS is YHVH by calling on the name of YHVH, they have been saved, and doesn’t Scripture say, that it is Father God Who “Calls us”, “Draws us”, and “Grants us” to come to JESUS?

    And it is within Acts 2:22. that Peter says that it is JESUS of Nazareth’s name that must be called on.
    Acts 4:12. says that there is No other NAME under heaven through which we can be saved, other than JESUS’S NAME.

    Every Apostle and Disciple could have eliminated persecution by simply saying “YES” we call on YHVH to be saved.
    But instead they ALL preached the NAME of JESUS.

    .

  77. Try taking what is said within the whole verse into consideration.

    Joel 2:32.;
    “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (YHVH) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHVH) hath said, and in the REMNANT WHOM THE LORD (YHVH) SHALL CALL.”

    The New Second Covenant text says that It is GOD THE FATHER that first “CALLS US”, (1 Thessalonians 2:11,12.) and WHO “DRAWS US” and “GRANTS US” access to come to JESUS, (John 6:44. & 6:65.).

    I’m moving on and I wish you all of the best.
    But if you are still attempting to observe the Mosaic Law, or believe that JESUS died to create some form of “Renewed” Covenant, then I don’t think that my wishes for you will make much difference.

    .

  78. GM, sir,

    Shame on you..!

    Or are you circumcised without anesthesia again..?!

    • (I forgot to stop “following” posts on this page, which I will rectify after making this last reply.)

      OLAF….
      Shame on me for “WHAT” specifically?

      Marianne says directly above in her last comment #361924, “I never mentioned the mosaic law. or a covenant.”
      Is that really true?

      Her whole post on December 6th. 11:27 am., (comment #361636), is all about the Mosaic Law STILL being applicable for those that follow JESUS.
      She says that, “the law is not abolished, it is just made clear with grace.” and then provides a site “http://www.eliyah.com/protorah.html” to clarify her point of view.

      The author of that site is clearly a proponent of the Mosaic Law, and has taken the “Gospel of JESUS” completely out of context, (like all “law keepers” have), and she then culls out excerpts from that site, to substantiate what she believes.
      Therefore by the means of logical extension, Marianne is a proponent of the Mosaic Law still as well, and doesn’t believe in a New Covenant.
      (That’s not rocket science there Olaf.)

      Now if you go to that site to verify this, please notice the following errors that this author makes.
      1)The author first states in their heading;
      “The following is a collection of clear scriptures showing that Paul never taught that we are free to disobey the Law (Hebrew: Torah).”

      Above the author is “LIMITING TORAH” and equating “IT” to be solely consisting of the “MOSAIC LAW”, where there is a vast amount of “tôwrâh” that Paul utilized to teach that originates from the Book of Genesis.
      This was provided by the Divine thousands of years prior to the revelation at Sinai.
      EVERYTHING that MOSES scribed while inspired through the HOLY SPIRIT, is “tôwrâh” as the Divine Law, Direction and Instruction.
      Though the Mosaic Law is included within Torah, “tôwrâh” ISN’T defined solely by the Mosaic Law!

      2) The author states, (by placing N.K.J.V. in brackets) that they are quoting from that Version.
      However, nowhere within that Version is the word “Elohim” utilized in Acts 24:14. or anywhere else.

      3) In quoting Acts 18:21. the author makes two (2) mistakes in attempting to substantiate their belief.
      One (1) would be the word “Yahweh” where again the N.K.J.V. does not utilize these words for the Divine.
      And two (2) Paul never said, “I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem”!

      The actual Greek Morphological text for Acts 18:21. is rendered as;
      “ἀλλὰ ἀποταξάμενος καὶ εἰπών πάλιν ἀνακάμψω πρὸς ὑμᾶς τοῦ θεοῦ θέλοντος ἀνήχθη ἀπὸ τῆς Ἐφέσου.”

      And would be translated as rendered as,
      “But taking leave of them and saying, “Again I will return to you if God wills.” he set sail from Ephesus.”

      There is NO MENTION of JERUSALEM at all!
      Luke (who is the author of the Book of Acts) and who accompanied Paul on this journey, records what took place.

      In Acts 18:22. they went to Caesarea, then went to Antioch.
      In Acts 18:23. after spending sometime in Antioch, they went to region of Galatia and Phrygia.
      In Acts 19:1. after Paul had passed through the upper regions, HE CAME BACK to Ephesus.
      Where he spoke in the synagogue there for a period of THREE MONTHS, Acts 19:8..
      Now during those THREE MONTHS some of the Jews in the synagogue became hardened of heart, so Paul left them, took his Disciples, and went to the school of Tyrannus, (which was located in Ephesus) and continued teaching in that school for a period of TWO YEARS, Acts 19:9,10..

      So, in taking into account the mode of travel that was available at the time, this journey, and the recorded time that Paul and his Disciples spent in Ephesus when they all returned, probably took the better part of THREE YEARS.
      AND THERE IS NO MENTION OF ANY OF THEM GOING TO JERUSALEM!
      SO THEY DIDN’T SEE IT AS BEING NECESSARY TO “KEEP” ANY FEAST “WHATSOEVER”.

      Galatians 2:1. would also confirm this fact, where Paul says that he didn’t find it necessary to go up to Jerusalem for a period of FOURTEEN YEARS.
      “Then FOURTEEN YEARS after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.”

      The journey from and back to Ephesus, and Paul after his conversion by NOT going back to Jerusalem, BREAKS the Commandment issued within the Mosaic Law of Exodus 23:14-19., and Deuteronomy 16:16..

      So clearly the heading of that author….
      “The following is a collection of clear scriptures showing that Paul never taught that we are free to disobey the Law (Hebrew: Torah)”
      …. is simply incorrect!

      The author of this site is NOT a Berean, and I would have to say that anyone that would recommend this site, is also NOT a Berean.

      Sorry OLAF, I don’t accept your condemnation, and I’ll allow for JESUS as Judge to make any determination of “shame” on any individual, Himself.

      .

      • GM

        good points about who is saved and who is part of christ.

        regarding the rapture, when it happens depends on one’s definition of tribulation.

        some consider all the seals, trumpet and vials as THE tribulation.

        I don’t

        I see the seals as the tribulation jesus described in matthew 24, which he said we would experience.

        then there is the 6th seal, during or before which we are raptured, also according to matthew 24.

        then, the wrath begins, as described at the end of rev 6

        wrath is the trumpets and vials, during which mystery babylon falls.

  79. GM,

    After your: “I’m moving on and wish you all of the best’, it kept silent here. However, your finishing touch after your ‘leaving’ was rather unpleasant. Marianne doesn’t deserve that. Next she already had told you not having plenty of time for the endless sharing. That’s why I felt sorry for her and was thinking of how to stop bro elephant and posted my (to) late reaction,

    Howdo,

    Olaf, Marianne, Bereanstreet 10.

  80. Well “Hi” there Olaf,
    I just thought I’d check in here to see if any further discussion had taken place regarding the above.

    I know that you have every right to defend the understanding and beliefs of the Administrator here.
    However with this being an “open forum”, I in turn would have the same right to question and challenge those understandings and beliefs.

    And if you believe the same as the Administrator believes, and it is your understanding as well, that the individuals that Believe and have Faith in Jesus as the Saving Christ, and have therefore become members of His Church, have been GRAFTED INTO Israel, and a group of individuals that DON’T Believe and have Faith in Jesus as the Saving Christ, and are therefore NOT members of His Church, then “good luck” with that understanding, because to me that is simply nonsensical.

    As well, if you believe what the Administrator believes regarding Abram/Abraham being aware of Isaac from the very beginning, then that is equally absurd.

    Tell me… do you understand that Genesis 22:1-19. though being an historical account of an event, is also an ALLEGORY?
    That within that historical account, Abraham symbolically represents a “type” of God the Father, and that Isaac symbolically represents a “type” of Jesus?

    If so, then as a student of the Word, you should also be able to make the connection that Ishmael symbolically represents Israel.
    Because within Galatians 4:21 through 5:1., Paul explains and confirms the fact, that HAGAR and ISHMAEL vs. SARAH and ISAAC are also to be understood as an ALLEGORY.

    Some Questions;
    “Who was God’s Firstborn son?”
    As per Exodus 4:22. the Nation (people) of Israel were God’s Firstborn son.

    Who was God’s Second born Son?
    As per John 1:14.,18. 3:16.,18., 1 John 4:9., Jesus was God’s Second born and Only Begotten Son.

    “Who was Abram/Abraham’s Firstborn son.
    As per Genesis 16:11. and 15,16., Ishmael was Abram/Abraham’s Firstborn son.

    “Who was Abram/Abraham’s Second born son?”
    As per Genesis 17:16-19., and 21:1-3. Isaac was Abram/Abraham’s Second born son.
    Not ONLY that, BUT ISAAC was ALSO “THINE ONLY SON” (Genesis 22:2,12,16.) and “ONLY BEGOTTEN SON” (Hebrews 11:17.).

    Abram/Abraham = Father God.
    Father God’s Firstborn son is ISRAEL (Exodus 4:22.) Abram/Abraham’s Firstborn son is ISHMAEL.
    Father God’s Second born and Only Begotten Son is JESUS. Abram/Abraham’s Second born and Thine Only Begotten son is ISAAC.

    If we as Believers in Jesus, have been GRAFTED INTO a nation of people that are STILL IN THEIR SIN, then JESUS simply DIED IN VAIN.
    Perhaps you should take the time to read http://www.bookofgalatians.ca

    *** < ***

  81. What neither of you appear to understand is what Paul is expressing within Ephesians 2:12,13..
    Which, (if you actually comprehend the following) will allow you to understand that we are NOT GRAFTED into UNBELIEVING Israel, and that what you currently believe is in error.

    Paul was sending this epistle to the Saints that were Faithful to Christ Jesus that were in Ephesus. (Ephesians 1:1.)
    If Paul calls them Saints and says that they are Faithful to Jesus, then they would be members of Christ’s Church…… Right?

    Ephesians 2:12,13;
    “That at that time ye were WITHOUT Christ, being aliens from the “commonwealth of Israel”, and strangers from the covenants of PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

    So, another way that we could express what Paul has just said above within this letter to the Gentile recipients of Ephesus is;

    “Before you were WITH CHRIST you were aliens from the “commonwealth of Israel”, and you were strangers from the Covenants of Promise. You had no hope and you were without God in the world. BUT NOW that you are IN CHRIST JESUS, though in the past you were far away, you’ve been brought close by the Blood of Christ.”

    Now….
    The only people (be they Jew or Gentile) that have access to the COVENANTS of PROMISE (that were made to Abraham) are MEMBERS of CHRIST’S CHURCH.
    MEMBERS of CHRIST’S CHURCH are also the only ones that have HOPE and have GOD in while they’re in the world….. Right?

    Let’s look at Ephesians 2:12. in context then;
    “That at that time ye were WITHOUT Christ, being aliens from the “CHURCH”, and strangers from the covenants of PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world:”

    The “Commonwealth of Israel” that Paul is referring to here and “The Church”, are one in the same.

    Unbelieving Jews and Gentiles that are WITHOUT CHRIST DON’T have access to the Covenants of Promise, DON’T have Hope, and DON’T have God while they’re here in this world.

    Tell me… If you happen to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, (which is clearly expressed within Scripture) and you also believe that the members of Christ’s Church are grafted into unbelieving Israel, then though unbelieving Israel is still in their sin, and they don’t even believe and have faith in Christ, will they be raptured too?

    Now, if your answer is “NO” then what would be the point of believers being grafted into them?
    And if you answer “YES”, then what was the point of Christ’s Life, Death and Resurrection?

  82. Marianne;
    By the advertisements that you are currently displaying on your site, it would appear that you’re a member of the “worldwide church of god” or one of it’s many offshoots. And if you’re indoctrinated with what they believe, then I’m pretty sure that you won’t understand what I’m about to say.

    Nonetheless….
    You say in your last response of November 30th. above, “good points about who is saved and who is part of christ” then you continue on and elaborate with your views and beliefs in respects to the rapture/tribulation.

    The actual topic of discussion is WHY Paul utilized the phrase “COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL” instead of just saying “CHURCH”.

    Our views and beliefs in respects to the rapture/tribulation do not have a bearing on our Salvation, whereas the understanding of WHY Paul utilized the phrase “COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL” instead of just saying “CHURCH” DOES.

    Re-read my above post regarding Ephesians 2:12,13.
    The “COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL” is the “CHURCH”.

    Romans 9:6.;
    “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are NOT all ISRAEL, which are of Israel”

    Where Paul then continues in verses 9:7,8. by explaining that those that are truly considered to be the legitimate “children of God”, (be they Jew or Gentile) are the “Seed of Isaac” and “the Children of Promise” and NOT simply those that have the fleshy biological lineage going back to Abraham.

    Paul is saying in Romans 9:6.;
    It’s not as though the Word of God has somehow failed, it’s just that NOT every INDIVIDUAL ISRAELITE, belongs to the “COMMONWEALTH of ISRAEL”.
    Or;
    It’s not as though the Word of God has somehow failed, it’s just that NOT every INDIVIDUAL ISRAELITE, belongs to the “CHURCH”.

    But WHY doesn’t Paul just say “CHURCH”?
    WHAT is Paul revealing to those that follow Jesus?

    It is all interwoven and tied together with “Firsts and Seconds”.
    There was Abram who was REPLACED by ABRAHAM.
    There was Ishmael who was REPLACED by ISAAC.
    There was Esau who was REPLACED by JACOB.

    Then God does something quite amazing.
    He changes Jacobs name to Israel in Genesis 32:28., BUT then changes it again to ISRAEL in Genesis 35:10..

    What you have to try to understand is WHY God did that, and WHAT that signifies.

    The First time God changes Jacob’s name to Israel in Genesis 32:28. it is referring to the future “Children of the Mosaic Law”.
    The Second time God changes Jacob’s name to ISRAEL in Genesis 35:10. it is referring to the future CHILDREN OF PROMISE, the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, the CHURCH.

    Paul simply confirms the above in Galatians 4:21-31. where he states that Abraham’s two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, are also an allegory.
    Ishmael symbolically represents the Old First Covenant of the Mosaic Law, and those that still religiously attempt to observe the Mosaic Law.

    Isaac symbolically represents the New Second Covenant of Liberty and Freedom, those that Live by Faith and Trust in God’s Promise and are therefore CHILDREN OF (that) PROMISE.

    You can’t be both Isaac and Ishmael at the same time.

    CHILDREN OF PROMISE understand that they’ve been REDEEMED from the Mosaic Law.
    They understand that they are LED solely by the Spirit, and NOT by the LETTER of the MOSAIC LAW.

    I am aware that you won’t agree with, nor understand what I am saying.
    But I thought that I would leave it with you for consideration any way’s.

    ………..

    • GM

      I agree with what you say. I do not see any advertisements on my page. what are you seeing?

      I am not a member of any organization. my views of the tribulation are based on matthew 24 and revelation 6

  83. Yesterday when I popped by and read your response, your main page had advertisements for the “restored church of god” an offshoot of the “worldwide church of god” cult.

    If you agree with what I have said…. WHY are you a proponent of the Mosaic Law then?

    ……..

    • GM

      I have no idea about the ads. I do not see any. possibly wordpress allows ads to pay for site.

      Mosaic law is part of the word of God. Some of it still applies, like the 10 commandments…some of it, like the ritual sacrifices for sin, were made unnecessary at the cross.

  84. Well forget about the advertisements then, they’re not important.
    However in regards the Mosaic Law…. Could you substantiate what you say by providing Scripture?

    Deuteronomy 4:2. would more than suggest that the Mosaic Law is a complete corpus of tôwrâh – Divine Direction, Instruction and Teaching that CAN’T be added to or taken away from.

    What you are saying is, that you can be a bit of Ishmael and a bit of Isaac at the same time, which is contrary to what Paul conveys within the book of Galatians. You either choose to be one or the other.
    And ISAAC was the HEIR ….. Ishmael was “CAST OUT” and received nothing.

    Again;
    There was FIRST Abram who was REPLACED by ABRAHAM SECOND.
    There was FIRST Ishmael who was REPLACED by ISAAC SECOND.
    There was FIRST Esau who was REPLACED by JACOB SECOND.

    Then God changed Jacob’s name the FIRST time to Israel, which was then REPLACED the SECOND time by ISRAEL, (the CHURCH).

    Moses as the FIRST mediator was REPLACED by JESUS as the SECOND MEDIATOR.
    The FIRST (Levitical) Priesthood was REPLACED by JESUS the SECOND (Judah) as the HIGH PRIEST in the Order of MELCHIZEDEK.
    The Mosaic Law, the FIRST means for man to obtain righteousness, (Deut. 6:25.) was REPLACED by JESUS the SECOND as the ONLY means to obtain RIGHTEOUSNESS (Romans 10:4.)
    The FIRST Israel was God’s Firstborn son (Exodus 4:22.) and they were REPLACED by JESUS, God’s SECOND born and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

    I could just go on and on. IT’S ALL JESUS!
    That is WHY you couldn’t provide one solitary verse within the whole of NEW SECOND COVENANT text that say’s that we are to observe ANY Mosaic Law.

    Read Galatians 4:21 through 5:1. with the understanding that 4:21., “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?” would be correctly translated in context as, “Tell me, you that desire to be under the Mosaic Law, do you not understand tôwrâh? – Divine Direction, Instruction and Teaching.

    ………

    • GM

      you are contradicting yourself. first you question the mosaic law…then say it is the Torah..which it is, and IS the word of god, the first 5 books of the bible

      we may not be under the law, as we are under grace, but our morality is still based on it and we should still obey the moral law. nothing has been done away with…some parts are FULFILLED, not done away with, and other parts are still unfulfilled.

      14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means! Rom 6:15

      Romans 6:1
      What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?

      Torah defines sin. so you are not under the law, but must understand Torah defines sin, so we can avoid it.

      to abolish the Torah is to abolish the definition of sin and god’s law, in order to have sin abound

      8 Be indebted to no one, except to one another in love, for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law. 9

        The commandments “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and any other commandments, are summed up in this one decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

      10 Love does no wrong to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law.… Romans 13:9

      Which of these got abolished so you can violate Torah?

      Exodus 20:13
      “You shall not murder.

      Exodus 20:14
      “You shall not commit adultery.

      Exodus 20:15
      “You shall not steal.

      Exodus 20:17
      “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

      Leviticus 19:18
      ‘You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

      9 “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap your field right up to its edge, neither shall you gather the gleanings after your harvest. 10 And you shall not strip your vineyard bare, neither shall you gather the fallen grapes of your vineyard. You shall leave them for the poor and for the sojourner: I am the Lord your God.

      11 “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another. 12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

      13 “You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him. The wages of a hired worker shall not remain with you all night until the morning. 14 You shall not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block before the blind, but you shall fear your God: I am the Lord.

      15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. 16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life[a] of your neighbor: I am the Lord.

      17 “You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason frankly with your neighbor, lest you incur sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people,

        but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

      we are not under the law or need it to be saved, but we still need to obey it

      Jesus taught Torah and how to interpret it and understand its meanings. notice the “love your neighbor” comes from Torah

  85. NO!
    I am NOT contradicting myself.
    You just happen to be LIMITING tôwrâh to being solely encompassed within the 1st. five books and more specifically, as being the Mosaic Law.
    You are LIMITING tôwrâh exactly the same way as the UNBELIEVING JEWS do.

    Though I’ve expressed this before above for you, let’s try it again.

    What exactly is Torah?
    Torah the Hebrew “תּוֹרָה” transliterated as “tôwrâh” is defined primarily in its noun form, as Divine “Direction, Instruction and Teaching”, (or what would constitute as Law).
    Tôwrâh is derived from the Hebrew root verb “יָרָה” transliterated as “yârâh”, which is primarily defined as to “shoot an arrow and to hit the mark”.

    Together then, tôwrâh can be understood and defined in respects to the Divine, “pointing or leading to show, to direct, to teach and instruct, or to lay the foundations” to “hit the mark”…..Correct?
    Do you agree with that definition?

    If you do, then WHY would you LIMIT “LAW” to merely consisting of what is recorded within “Genesis through Deuteronomy” and the Tanakh or Old First Testament just like UNBELIEVING JEWS do?

    Now read Deuteronomy 18:15. and pay particular attention to verse 18. where God says that “He will put His words into that Prophets (JESUS) mouth, and that JESUS will speak everything that Father God Commands Him to speak. See John 3:34., 8:26.,28. and 47. John 12:49,50., 14:10.,24., 17:8. & Hebrews 1:1,2. as well, then ask yourself the question’s …..

    “If everything that JESUS spoke came from Father God, wouldn’t that be “Direction, Instruction and Teaching” from Father God?”

    “If everything that JESUS spoke came from Father God, wouldn’t that be a “COMMANDMENT and Tôwrâh LAW” from Father God too?”

    If you DON’T answer “YES” to those two questions, then you are edifying Moses as mediator above that of JESUS The SAVIOUR as MEDIATOR, and denying the Very Son of Father God the same way as the UNBELIEVING JEWS do too.

    Until you fully understand WHAT Tôwrâh is, and that Father God’s “COMMANDMENTS and Tôwrâh LAW” are also included throughout the NEW SECOND COVENANT text, you won’t fully understand the Gospel of JESUS nor the Majesty of the Promise.

    As well, until you grasp the above, any further discussion will be simply pointless.

    ….

    • gm

      stop falsely quoting me. you get a wrong idea, then you argue against it, when it was not said to begin with.

      for heaven’s sake….

      I am not limiting anything. the torah by definition, one which Jesus followed also, is the first 5 books of OT. the tenach is the entire OT. jesus quoted from it and expanded on deeper meanings.

      jesus is the walking torah, from genesis to revelation…it is all the word of god.

  86. Sorry but, I’m NOT quoting you falsely.
    And I DON’T have a what you consider to be a “wrong idea”.
    It is because of your inability to distinguish the word “Law” from that of the Mosaic Law, that led you into believing that I was contradicting myself.

    Above I had said;
    “Read Galatians 4:21 through 5:1. with the understanding that 4:21., “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?” would be correctly translated in context as, “Tell me, you that desire to be under the Mosaic Law, do you not understand tôwrâh? – Divine Direction, Instruction and Teaching.”

    Paul then immediately refers to Abraham and his two sons “Ishmael and Isaac” to explain to the Galatians that “they” are also an allegory, that symbolically represent the FIRST and SECOND Covenants and those the live within those Covenants.

    Paul utilizes Father God’s Tôwrâh– Divine Direction, Instruction and Teaching from Genesis, (which was 430 years prior to the revelation of the Mosaic Law) to teach the Galatians the error of their ways.

    To LIMIT the word LAW in NEW SECOND COVENANT text to simply referring to the Mosaic Law is an error.

    …….

  87. You really have no idea as to what my motivation is, or why I have bothered to discuss this with you do you?
    It is NOT to win some sort of theological argument as you might expect.

    Paul had called the Galatians FOOLISH and stated that he was AFRAID for them…. Correct?
    Well the Galatians Believed and had Faith in JESUS, and had also been born of the Spirit.
    So what was he so concerned about, to the point that he wrote them a long letter with his own hand?

    They had started practicing a gospel that was different from the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST that he had taught them initially.
    A gospel that drew them away from Father God and the Grace of Christ that God had brought them into.

    WHAT do you think that this “gospel” that the Galatians had been bewitched into following consisted of?
    WHO of all of peoples of the earth, would introduce the aspect of circumcision?

    …..

  88. No?
    Well, I highly suspect from all that you have stated, that at the very least, you attempt to observe a dietary law in an effort to please God.
    Would I be wrong with that assumption?

    ….

    • Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day

      col 2:16

  89. So I was right then regarding the dietary law.
    Well you don’t have to be a resident of ancient Galatia to demonstrate the same behaviour.
    Though I do believe that you are utilizing what Paul is saying there in Colossians to justify your dietary observance, out of context.

    “WHY?” you ask….
    Well because I believe that you observe your dietary laws, because you believe that they are necessary.
    And that by doing so, you are seeking God’s approval.
    That’s not what Paul is talking about there in Colossians.

    But that is just my opinion, you and God know your motivation as to why.

    Nevertheless I’ll leave you with this.

    It all comes down to one’s motivation.
    If someone believes in their heart that it is NECESSARY to religiously observe any Mosaic Law to seek God’s approval, they’re trying to justify themselves before God.
    And as Paul said to Peter, by doing so, it “nullifies” God’s Grace.

    ……

    • GM

      you have a hypercritical, judgmental spirit. Jesus had to deal with people like you also. I suggest you get off your high horse, and repent. all your false conclusions are boring.

  90. Really?
    Well thankfully you’re not my Judge.

    As what you believe became clearer to understand during the course of this discussion, all I did was attempt to have you look at all of this objectively and logically, from a perspective beyond that of your preconceived beliefs.
    I even attempted to utilize God’s use of FIRSTS and SECONDS as examples to demonstrate to you that God totally REPLACES the FIRST with the SECOND. (Ecclesiastes. 4:15.)

    Abram with ABRAHAM – Ishmael with ISAAC – Esau with JACOB – Jacob with Israel to JACOB with ISRAEL – the First Israel with JESUS.
    This would also be applicable with us as well, “our First natural state of flesh being REPLACED with our SECOND state of being Born of the Spirit”
    (John 3:6.)
    As would the Covenants.
    The FIRST OLD COVENANT has been totally REPLACED by the SECOND NEW COVENANT.

    However you believe that it is a blend of the two, that somehow you can be a “child of Promise and a child of the Desolate” at the same time?

    There are NOT a variety of gospel’s to choose from.
    There is only ONE GOSPEL, ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPARD.

    If I am guilty of anything, I am guilty of being passionate for CHRIST and HIM alone.

    ……

    • gm

      there is nothing wrong with my views. you don’t even know what they are so stop making up things. so stop harassing me and get on with your life. I hope you do not do this to others

  91. Well above you say “I hope you do not do this to others”.

    Now using say Paul for an example;
    Didn’t Paul “reason” (converse, discourse with one, argue, discuss or preach) from Scripture, with the Jews in the synagogues when the opportunity to do so presented itself?

    Didn’t Paul “reason” with the pagan’s too?

    Paul even “reasoned” with the Galatians, those that had already committed themselves to Jesus and had been born of the Spirit, because they had lost their way, and had started to observe and practice a different gospel other than the Gospel that he had taught them initially.

    So aren’t we “commissioned” to do the same?

    Given the opportunity, I “reason” with Jehovah Witnesses too.
    And I’ll continue to do so, with whoever I feel led to do so with.

    Having said that, would you be kind enough to answer one last question?

    “WHAT LAW” is Jesus speaking of in the below?

    Matthew 5:17.;
    “Think not that I am come to destroy THE LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

    …..

  92. This subject of discussion is extremely complex, and it requires for the individual that reads the following to possess the ability to “go beyond the 9 dots” of their current process of reasoning, be willing to question their beliefs, and consider the full scope of the possibilities.
    Therefore I have chosen to submit this in PARTS.

    PART 1;

    Above I had asked the Administrator here a question, “WHAT LAW is Jesus speaking of in the below?”

    Matthew 5:17.;
    “Think not that I am come to destroy THE LAW, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

    I had asked this question with the hopes that I could provide some information that hasn’t previously been taken into consideration by many, and help mend what is clearly a fractured Church.
    Unfortunately, it appears that the Administrator no longer wishes to participate in this discussion, and has chosen not to reply.
    Therefore before I leave, I’ll provide the following for any of those that may stumble across this in the future.

    As man, we have a natural tendency to provide a “solitary” answer to any given question.
    (The Divine is simply so beyond that, Isaiah 55:8,9., hence my preface above.)
    However, because that is our tendency, it is not uncommon, (especially for proponents of the Mosaic Law) to answer that question with just the “Mosaic Law”.

    Now, though the “Mosaic Law” would be included in “THE LAW” that Jesus spoke of within Matthew 5:17. this “LAW” isn’t LIMITED to just the Mosaic Law.
    This “LAW” is also comprised of ALL of Father God’s Tôwrâh (Direction, Instruction and Teaching regarding JESUS) as well.

    JESUS didn’t destroy, but also “FULFILLED” (plēroō – to render full, i.e. to complete by means of performance) everything that had been written about Him that He was supposed to FULFILL during His first manifestation as the Promised Messiah.

    HE FULFILLED Genesis 3:15.
    HE FULFILLED the Covenant of Promise that God had made to Abraham, (Luke 1:72,73.- Galatians 3:16-18.).
    HE FULFILLED Jeremiah 31:31-34. and created the NEW SECOND COVENANT, and HE FULFILLED all that Isaiah and the other prophets had said in respects to HIM being the Suffering Servant, HIS Crucifixion, Resurrection, Ascension, and all of HIS Finished Work as well.
    I could write pages in respects to everything that HE did for us on our behalf.
    Everything that was impossible for us to accomplish on our own as mere man.

    Again, JESUS “FULFILLED” EVERYTHING that had been written about HIM that HE was supposed to FULFILL during HIS first manifestation as the Promised Messiah.

    Now if you understand and agree with this, that JESUS “FULFILLED” and completed EVERYTHING in it’s entirety….
    Then WHY would HE have only completed “aspects or portions” of the Mosaic Law?

    JESUS DOESN’T say that HE will only complete “aspects or portions”, HE says that HE has come to FULFILL (plēroō – to render full, i.e. to complete by means of performance) ALL OF IT!

    As a matter of FACT, If JESUS as a Man, was born under the Mosaic Law (Galatians 4:4.) YET was declared to be WITHOUT “blemish” or “spot” and as being “without sin”, (2 Corinthians 5:21., Hebrews 4:15., 7:26,27., 9:14., 1 Peter 1:19., 2:22., and 1 John 3:5.) the ONLY possible way HE could have attained those “designations” is by first FULFILLING whatever was “applicable, required and necessary” to fulfill, in respects to the Mosaic Law as God The Father had intended for man to fulfill it.

    On the other hand, if JESUS hadn’t completely FULFILLED the Mosaic Law, HE not only wouldn’t have attained those designations, HE also wouldn’t have attained the necessary RIGHTEOUSNESS (tsĕdaqah – righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation. Deuteronomy 6:25.) which then qualified HIM as the WORTHY LAMB.

    JESUS suffered everything that HE did on our behalf, and also FULFILLED what was necessary to FULFILL in respects to the Mosaic Law for Righteousness on our behalf too.

    So, in context then, when JESUS said that HE would FULFILL the LAW, HE was referring to what would occur in the FUTURE.
    Everything that HE was going to accomplish which hadn’t fully come to fruition yet.
    Therefore with HIM being WHO HE is, and with Father God having “put HIS Words into JESUS’S mouth” what JESUS said is also Prophecy.

    This aspect of Prophecy, or what would occur in the future not being recognized by proponents, is what causes much of their confusion.

    Though at the time that JESUS said the above, the Mosaic Law was indeed mere mans only means and instrument to obtain Righteousness, (tsĕdaqah – again Deut. 6:25.) AFTER Finishing HIS Work, GOD now grants us “JUSTIFICATION” (dikaioō – to render Righteousness) by FAITH and access to HIS Grace, (Romans 5:1,2.) and JESUS now REDEEMS us from having to religiously observe, “the Mosaic Law”, (Galatians 3:13. & 4:5.).

    I will post PART 2 within the next couple of days.

  93. PART 2;

    Now the other significant word in this verse regarding “THIS LAW” that JESUS utilizes, is “DESTROY”.
    This DESTROY (katalyō – abolish, dissolve, to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard) is what proponents of the Mosaic Law place emphasis upon.

    Now JESUS says that HE DIDN’T come to DESTROY THE LAW.
    And above we have numerous examples of WHAT this LAW consisted of, and that HE DID indeed FULFILL the LAW, just like HE said that HE would.

    Yet proponents of the Mosaic Law have concluded that since JESUS said that HE DIDN’T come to DESTROY THE LAW, then observance of/to the Mosaic Law is still applicable for Believers in HIM, RATHER than understanding that since the Mosaic Law wasn’t DESTROYED, it will STILL be utilized as an Instrument for JUDGEMENT for UNBELIEVERS.

    JESUS “REDEEMED” (exagorazō – by payment of a price to recover from the power of another, to ransom) with HIS death on the CROSS, both Jew and Gentile BELIEVER’S from this CURSE of JUDGMENT by the Mosaic Law, (Galatians 3:13., 4:5.).

    Therefore, because JESUS didn’t DESTROY this LAW, both Jew and Gentile UNBELIEVER’S are STILL under the CURSE of JUDGMENT by the Mosaic Law.

    The Divine are a Righteous Judge, and when They Judge an UNBELIEVING mankind, a Righteous criteria must be utilized.
    JESUS didn’t DESTROY the Mosaic Law, because the Mosaic Law is that criteria.

    (This fact only further relegates the Law-keepers theory that BELIEVER’S are somehow GRAFTED into UNBELIEVING Israel as nonsensical; WHY would JESUS die on the CROSS to REDEEM those that Believe and have Faith in HIM from the JUDGEMENT of the Mosaic Law, only to GRAFT those same BELIEVER’S back into a group of individuals that DON’T BELIEVE and HAVEN’T been REDEEMED from the JUDGEMENT of the Mosaic Law?)

    Proponents of the Mosaic Law have failed to take into consideration what would occur in the future, and have placed a significant amount of weight upon what JESUS states within this verse, BEFORE HE accomplished HIS Finished Work.

    Within the Old First Covenant an individual was bound to observe ALL, each and every aspect of the Mosaic Law that pertained specifically to them, be they male, female or Priest.
    For example, each of the following verses state unequivocally that EVERY Commandment must be observed;
    Exodus 19:7,8., 23:13., 24:3,7., Leviticus 18:4,5., 19:37., 20:8. &22., 22:31., 25:18., 26:3., 26:14,15., Numbers 15:22., 15:39,40., Deuteronomy 4:1, 4:4-6., 4:14., 5:1., 5:29., 5:31., 6:1,2., 6:25., 7:11,12., 8:1,2., 11:8., 11:13., 11:22., 13:18., 15:5., 17:19., 11:22., 12:28., 17:19., 19:9., 26:13., 26:16., 26:18., 27:1., 27:26., 28:13., 28:15., 28:45., 28:58., 29:9., 29:29., 30:8., 30:10., 31:5., 31:12., and 32:46.

    And Deuteronomy 4:22. states that “NOTHING can be ADDED or TAKEN AWAY from the Mosaic Law”.
    The maintaining of the integrity of the Mosaic Law, where NO “this or that” religious practice of the surrounding people was to be incorporated, was a Commanded paramount.
    The Mosaic Law was and is an ALL OR NOTHING corpus of instruction, where if you happen to BREAK ONE, then you have BROKEN THEM ALL, (James 2:10.).

    Now, let’s look at some of the changes that have occurred AFTER CHRIST’S Finished Work, to see whether or not JESUS (just like ISAAC REPLACED Ishmael) has actually REPLACED the Old First, with the NEW SECOND.
    Because, if JESUS has actually REPLACED the Old First, with the NEW SECOND, HE would be an “ALL OR NOTHING” as well!

    Consider the following….

    1) Before CHRIST’S Finished Work, the Mosaic Law was the ONLY means for mere man to obtain Righteousness, (tsĕdaqah – righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation, Deuteronomy 6:25.).
    1) After CHRIST’S Finished Work, the Belief and Faith in HIM, is now the ONLY means for mere man to obtain “Righteousness”, (dikaiosynē – righteousness, the condition acceptable to God). CHRIST is the END (telos – termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be) of the Mosaic Law for the purpose of Righteousness, (Romans 10:4.), and NO mere man can be “Justified” (dikaioō – rendered righteous) through the Mosaic Law, (Galatians 2:16., 3:11.).

    2) Before CHRIST’S Finished Work, “Righteousness” could ONLY be obtained by mans own performance, by strict and perfect observance to the Mosaic Law.
    2) After CHRIST’S Finished Work, it is CHRIST’S performance, and “Righteousness” is now ONLY attained through GRACE with our Belief and Faith in HIM.

    3) Before CHRIST’S Finished Work, there were ONLY Levites and the Levitical Priesthood within the Mosaic Law.
    3) After CHRIST’S Finished Work, there IS ONLY JESUS from Judah, (Hebrews 7:14.) as The HIGH PRIEST in the order of Melchizedek, (Hebrews 5:6. (Psalms 110:4.) Hebrews 5:10., 6:20., 7:11., 7:17. and particularly 7:21.).

    4) These Levitical Priests had to offer up DAILY sacrifices for not only themselves, but for all of the individuals of the First Israel, where even with that, NO MERE MAN was declared to be righteous through the Mosaic Law, (Hebrews 7:27., 10:4., Romans 3:10-12.).
    4) JESUS didn’t require the necessity to offer up any sacrifice for Himself. Instead HE offered up Himself ONCE as the Sacrificial Lamb, where everyone that truly has Faith and Belief in HIS Finished Work, WOULD be Justified, and declared to be Righteous, (Hebrews 10:10.).

    5) Before CHRIST’S Finished Work, “Moses was the mediator” between God and ONLY the people of Israel, (Galatians 3:19.).
    5) After CHRIST’S Finished Work, “JESUS is the MEDIATOR” between God and EVERY INDIVIDUAL that Believes and has Faith in HIM, (1 Timothy 2:5., Hebrews 8:6., 9:15., 12:24.).

    6) Speaking of Moses, proponents don’t recognize the symbolism of what God is inferring within Scripture regarding him either.
    As dedicated of a servant as he was, Moses was a Levite, Levites have NO inheritance, and Moses wasn’t allowed to CROSS OVER the river Jordan to the Promised Land.
    6) After CHRIST’S Finished Work, EVERY individual that has Faith and Belief in Him, (no matter what their heritage may be) has the opportunity of ETERNAL INHERITANCE and being ALLOWED to CROSS OVER into Father God’s Promised Kingdom.

    Though this could just go on and on, there is Hebrews 10: 5-9. (Psalms 40:6-8.) where verse 9 states;
    “Then said HE (JESUS), Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. HE (JESUS) TAKETH AWAY (anaireō – in context, to take away, abolish, to do away with or abrogate) the FIRST (Old Covenant of bondage the Mosaic Law), that HE (JESUS) may establish the SECOND (New Covenant of Liberty and Freedom).”

    Which also means, that the NEW SECOND COVENANT that JESUS died to create has REPLACED the OLD FIRST COVENANT, (Jeremiah 31: 31-33., Hebrews 8:6,7. & 13., 9:15., 10:9.) for BELIEVER’S that have been REDEEMED from the Mosaic Law.

    So JESUS would be “ALL OR NOTHING” now!

    I will post the conclusion, PART 3 over the next few days.

    ….

  94. PART 3.

    It is this JESUS is “ALL OR NOTHING” aspect that Paul and the other Apostle’s convey within their epistle’s to the Churches, and to us.

    And though proponents will have no difficulty saying, “I’m not under the Mosaic Law, I am under Grace” they will, because they believe that these Laws are still necessary to keep, religiously observe various Mosaic Laws to the best of their ability, not realizing that in doing so, they are now mixing the Old FIRST with the New SECOND.

    They are also unaware, that by still “religiously observing these Mosaic Laws”, they are “nullifying and making void” the very “Grace” that they believe they are under.

    WHY?

    Because they are NOT demonstrating “Faith in God’s Covenant of Promise”.
    What is FAITH?
    FAITH would be a total and unwavering BELIEF and TRUST in something or SOMEONE.
    JESUS is the FULFILMENT of Father God’s Covenant of Promise to Abraham.

    JESUS has REPLACED the Mosaic Law for RIGHTEOUSNESS and has REDEEMED those that Believe and have FAITH in HIM from the Mosaic Law.
    However if an individual chooses to religiously observe the Mosaic Law because they believe that it is still necessary to do so, then by that “demonstrated behaviour”, they are NOT TRUSTING in JESUS as the FULFILMENT of Father God’s Covenant of Promise.

    This is why Paul says in Galatians 3:12. that, “the (Mosaic) Law is NOT of FAITH”, because proponents are NOT trusting totally in JESUS and HIS Finished Work, and are instead “ADDING” to the established Covenant of Promise that Father God made to Abraham, and are practicing a different gospel.

    If I were to utilize a worldly example to explain the above, I would say;
    “Let’s say that you had an outstanding mortgage on a house, and though you had done nothing to deserve it, someone that you didn’t even know paid that mortgage off for you in full. But you don’t really trust that it’s been paid off in full, so since you believe that it’s still necessary, you simply keep paying your monthly payments to the bank.”

    Wouldn’t that be a “snub” to the person that paid off that mortgage for you if they ever found out?
    JESUS is that Person, and HE knows whether you truly have Faith in that debt being paid on your behalf.

    Now to confirm through Scripture (King James) my comment above regarding the “nullifying and making void” GRACE, I offer the following;

    The members of the Churches in Galatia were all Believer’s in JESUS and had been “Born of the Spirit”, yet Paul wrote them a letter of CORRECTION because they had begun to practice a different gospel than the “Gospel” that he had initially taught them.

    This different gospel also consisted of the necessity to be “CIRCUMCISED”, where the ONLY people on the face of the earth that would hold that belief, would be JEW’S. Therefore it was a Jewish individual or individual’s that had committed the “bewitching” or who had persuaded the Galatians into practicing this different gospel. And if a Jewish individual or individual’s believed in the necessity to be “CIRCUMCISED”, then they would have also taught the Galatians the necessity to observe the rest of the Mosaic Law as well.

    The above is NOT an assumption. The inclusion of what Paul records within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. is conclusive evidence of that.

    Now Paul first states in Galatians 1:6,7.;
    1:6. “I MARVEL that ye are so soon REMOVED from HIM (Father God) that “called you” into the “Grace of Christ” unto ANOTHER gospel:”
    1:7. “Which is not ANOTHER; but there be some that TROUBLE you, and would PERVERT the “Gospel of Christ”.”

    By Paul utilizing the word “MARVEL” (thaumazō; astonished out of one’s senses; awestruck) he is expressing his shock and disbelief.

    The “REMOVED” in verse 6, “metatithēmi”, is defined in context as meaning to “desert, to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other), to fall away or desert from one person or thing to another.”

    Therefore in verse 6, Paul is saying;
    “That the Galatians are guilty of deserting and falling away FROM Father God, and FROM the “Grace of Christ” that God had called them to, by putting something in place of the other.”

    As well In verse 6, Paul clearly states that what the Galatians have turned to and had begun to practice is a “different gospel”.
    The first “ANOTHER” in verse 6, “heteros” is defined as, “another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, and different.”

    The second “ANOTHER” in verse 7, “allos” is also defined as “another or other”.

    Although both “heteros” and “allos” can be translated into the English “ANOTHER”, they have a difference in meaning which must be understood to establish the correct context.
    “Heteros” expresses a QUALITATIVE difference and denotes “another of a DIFFERENT sort.”
    “Allos” expresses a NUMERICAL difference and denotes “another of the SAME sort.”

    Thus within verses 6 and 7, Paul is saying;
    “That the Galatians are guilty of deserting and falling away FROM Father God, and FROM the “Grace of Christ” that God had called them to, because they have substituted a different gospel in place of the True Gospel that he had preached and had taught them initially.

    Paul also says within verse 7, that there are “some that TROUBLE you” (tarassō; to perplex the mind of one by suggesting scruples or doubts) and that those that are doing so “PERVERT” (metastrephō; to turn around or distort) the TRUE GOSPEL of CHRIST.

    Therefore, if we compile all of the above in a more contemporary language, Paul is saying to the Galatians in verses 6 and 7;
    “I am shocked and astonished that you are deserting and falling away FROM Father God, and FROM the “Grace of Christ” that God had called you to. You have listened to others who have perplexed your mind and taught you to substitute this different, perverted and distorted version of the gospel, in place of the TRUE GOSPEL of CHRIST that I had taught you to follow!”

    Paul also includes his chastisement of Peter within this epistle to the Galatians as well. He does this because it would be relevant to his point of correction for the Galatians. Peter certainly hadn’t become circumcised for a second time, therefore logically Peter was guilty of the same “demonstrated behaviour” as the Galatians were now practicing.

    In Galatians 2:21. Paul says to Peter;
    “I do not “FRUSTRATE” the “Grace of God”: for if righteousness come by the (Mosaic) law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

    FRUSTRATE, (atheteō; defined as “to do away with, to set aside, disregard, reject, refuse, to thwart the efficacy of anything, nullify, make void) the “Grace of God”.

    In a more clear and basic translated language, Paul says in Galatians 5:4., that if you practice this “demonstrated behaviour of religiously observing the Mosaic Law” that’ “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the (Mosaic) law; ye are FALLEN FROM GRACE.”

    Now because of my concern for others, I would love to go over Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. in detail to explain the Scripture.
    However because of the format here, it would not only be way too long, but it would also be very difficult to post something where the Biblical text, could be easily distinguished from transliterated Greek definitions.
    So I will just break down the text into TWO DISTINCT categories.

    First though, in Hosea 12:10. God says;
    “I have also spoken (dâbar; to speak or promise) by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used SIMILITUDES, by the ministry of the prophets.”

    The word “SIMILITUDES” above was derived from the Hebrew verb “אֲדַמֶּֽה” transliterated as “damah”.
    “Damah” is primarily defined as, “to be like, to resemble” and within the Piel verb tense, “to liken, to compare, to imagine and think”.

    Where within the context of Hosea 12:10., a “damah” then could be better understood in English as being an “ALLEGORY”.
    And in having been spoken by God, this would also mean, that God has provided for us within Scripture, verses that have consisted of “duality or multiplicity of meanings”, or “recordings of historical events”, that were in actuality ALSO ALLEGORIES.

    We should all acknowledge that Genesis 22:1-19. is ALSO a DAMAH or ALLEGORY, where Abraham symbolically represents a “type” of Father God, and Isaac symbolically represents a “type” of JESUS.

    Therefore, these damah’s or allegories are symbolic foreshadowing’s, and as in the “historical account of Abraham and Isaac” they are to be understood in respects to God expressing another separate and distinct Biblical Truth, above and beyond what is being expressed within the mere surface of the text itself.

    Which accordingly then would also indicate, that a damah that has been provided by God in the above context, would be a symbolic foreshadowing to take into consideration as “Instruction, Direction and Teaching” and are therefore in essence, also Torah (tôwrâh).

    Now, starting in Galatians 4:21., Paul reveals that “Hagar and Ishmael” VS “Sarah and Isaac” are also a DAMAH and ALLEGORY of God’s, where through them, God is expressing another separate and distinct Biblical Truth.

    4:21. “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?”

    Or what should have been translated correctly in context as;

    “Tell me you that desire to be under the Mosaic Law, do you not understand Tôwrâh? (or God’s “Instruction, Direction and Teaching”)

    Paul then states that Abraham had two sons, where the FIRST son (Ishmael) was born from bondage (Hagar).
    BUT the SECOND son (Isaac) was born of a FREE woman (Sarah).

    Paul then says that Ishmael was born of the flesh, (in a futile human effort to fulfill God’s Promise).
    But that it was Isaac that was born of the Promise.

    After expressing these antithetical contrasts, Paul then says that “Hagar and Ishmael” and “Sarah and Isaac” are a Damah or Allegory, that symbolically represent the TWO COVENANTS.

    Paul then breaks these down to TWO diametrically opposite from one another categories.

    “Hagar and Ishmael” being the FIRST, symbolically represent the FIRST COVENANT of the Mosaic Law.
    They represent bondage, flesh, Mount Sinai, the earthly Jerusalem, the children of the desolate, and those that will NOT be heirs, but instead will be Cast Out.

    “Sarah and Isaac” being the SECOND, symbolically represent the SECOND COVENANT of LIBERTY and FREEDOM.
    They represent, Freedom, Promise, Spirit, the Heavenly Jerusalem, the Children of Promise, and those that WILL be HEIRS.

    Is it any wonder then “WHY” Paul says what he does within Galatians 5:1.?
    “Stand fast therefore in the LIBERTY wherewith CHRIST hath made us FREE, and be not entangled again with the YOKE OF BONDAGE.”
    The “YOKE OF BONDAGE” is obviously the MOSAIC LAW.

    We can’t be both ISAAC and Ishmael at the same time.
    You either choose to be ISAAC and LIVE solely by FAITH as a Child of Promise, or you choose to be Ishmael, a desolate child and LIVE by the Mosaic Law.

    If the above helps anyone, God knows that I am grateful to be of service.

    Ciao
    …..

  95. APPENDIX;

    So Father God has provided Tôwrâh “damah’s or allegories” for us within Scripture, which we should understand as, “Direction, Instruction and Teaching”.
    Though they are recordings of “historical events”, they are also a “symbolic foreshadowing” of a similar or comparative event, which will take place in the future. These damah’s or allegories FULFILL Amos 3:7.

    Now every serious student of the Word should realize and understand that in Scripture God utilizes “TYPES”.

    In Genesis 22:1-19., Abraham is a “TYPE” of Father God, and Isaac is a “TYPE” of JESUS.

    ISAAC was Born by SPIRIT and obtained the Birthright, REPLACED Ishmael, and was the Only Heir.

    Therefore it would be reasonable to conclude that, SARAH would be a “TYPE” of MARY.

    JESUS was BORN BY SPIRIT and obtained the BIRTHRIGHT and IS the ONLY HEIR.

    SO WHO DID JESUS REPLACE?

    Well, in Galatians 4:24. Paul says that “(Hagar) and Ishmael” and “(SARAH) and ISAAC” are ALSO a “damah or allegory” where again Abram/Abraham would be a “TYPE” of Father God, because Abram/Abraham created these TWO children which symbolically represent the TWO Covenants.

    ISAAC was the SECOND BORN by SPIRIT, and was in God the Fathers eyes, Abrahams Only Begotten Son, (Hebrews 11:17., Genesis 22:2., 12., and 16.)
    JESUS was the SECOND BORN by SPIRIT, and was in God the Fathers eyes, HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, (John 1:18., John 3:16., John 3:18. and 1 John 4:9.)

    If Abram/Abraham is a “TYPE” of Father God, and Ishmael was his FIRSTBORN son, then within the context of a Tôwrâh damah, Ishmael symbolically represents “Israel” Father God’s Firstborn son, (Exodus 4:22.)!

    And if one comprehends Paul’s explanation of this damah within Galatians 4:21-31., in that Ishmael being the FIRST, symbolically represent the FIRST COVENANT of the Mosaic Law, bondage, flesh, Mount Sinai, the earthly Jerusalem, the children of the desolate, and those that will NOT be heirs, but instead will be Cast Out.

    Then, like SARAH is a “TYPE” of MARY, one should also be able to reasonably conclude, that HAGAR symbolically represents a “TYPE” of MOSES.

    ISAAC was Born by SPIRIT and obtained the Birthright, REPLACED Ishmael, and was the Only Heir.
    JESUS was BORN BY SPIRIT and obtained the BIRTHRIGHT, REPLACED ISRAEL, and IS the ONLY HEIR.

    Unfortunately, and what is rather ironic is, that those that say that they Believe and have Faith in JESUS, yet still religiously attempt to observe the Mosaic Law, have in fact GRAFTED themselves back into UNBELIEVING Israel because of their demonstrated behaviour.
    This was the whole point of Paul’s epistle to the Galatians.

    We either LIVE by FAITH as a CHILD of PROMISE like ISAAC, or LIVE by the MOSAIC LAW as a DESOLATE CHILD like ISHMAEL.

    ……

  96. The “TYPES” in Galatians 4:21-31.;

    Just the same as it is in Genesis 22:1-19., within Paul’s explanation of this damah or allegory, Abram/Abraham is a “type” of Father God.

    Abram (1st.)/Abraham (2nd.) created Ishmael (1st.) and Isaac (2nd.) who as sons, symbolically represent the TWO (1st. Older & 2nd. Younger) Covenants (Gal. 4:24.) that Father God provided to man.

    Ishmael was created by flesh, (Genesis 16:4., Gal. 4:23. & 29.) through Hagar the slave woman, and in being born First (1st. Older), he symbolically represents the First (1st. Older) Covenant of Mosaic Law.
    The (1st. Older) Law of the earthly Jerusalem, (Gal. 4:25.) of flesh, bondage, (Gal.4:24,25.) and the desolate children that will be Cast Out. (Gal. 4:27. & 30.)
    Therefore, Ishmael as a Firstborn (1st. Older) son, also symbolically represents a “type” of Israel, Father God’s Older Firstborn (1st.) son, (Exodus 4:22.).

    Hagar then is also a “type”.
    Hagar was the one that facilitated the birth of Ishmael, and with her symbolically representing Mount Sinai, (Galatians 4:24,25.) she then, as the mediator, symbolically represents a “type” of Moses.

    CONVERSELY, Isaac was a Promise made by God, (Genesis 15:4., 17:19-21., Gal. 4:23.) and created by Spirit, (Gal. 4:29.) through Sarah the Free woman.
    And in being born Second (2nd. Younger), Isaac symbolically represents the Second (2nd. Younger or NEW) Covenant of Freedom FROM the Mosaic Law.
    This Second (2nd.) Covenant consists of the Heavenly Jerusalem, Spirit, Promise, Freedom and the Children of Promise that WON’T be Cast Out.
    And being the Second (2nd. Younger) Born, Thine Only, and Only Begotten Son, (Genesis 22:2.,12.,16. Hebrews 11:17.) Isaac symbolically represents a “type” of JESUS, (John 1:14.,18., 3:16.,18.).

    Sarah then is also a “type” of Mary .
    Sarah was barren and required Divine Intervention by God and Spirit for Isaac the child of promise to be born.
    Mary was a virgin and required Divine Intervention by God and Spirit for JESUS the Child of Promise to be born.

    Sarah was the Mother of Isaac, Abraham’s/(God’s) Second (2nd. Younger or New) Born and Only Begotten Son.
    Mary was the Mother of JESUS, Father God’s Second (2nd. Younger and New) Born and Only Begotten Son.

    Hagar, Ishmael and Moses represent the Old and First, and are the COMPLETE OPPOSITE of Sarah, Isaac and JESUS, the Younger, New and Second.
    As are the TWO (1st. Old & 2nd. NEW) COVENANTS.
    You choose to either be Ishmael (a Firstborn of flesh, John 3:6.) and follow the Law of Moses or ISAAC (a Second Born of Spirit, John 3:6.) and Follow the LAW OF CHRIST.
    You either live by the Mosaic Law, or LIVE by FAITH in TRUSTING the SUFFICIENCY of JESUS as GOD’S PROMISE.
    If you attempt to follow the Mosaic Law still, you don’t understand the GOSPEL of JESUS.

    ….

  97. So….. Does the Administrator here understand the meaning of Galatians 4:29. then?

    “But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”

    What Paul is stating, and what verse in Genesis Paul is referring to?

    …..

  98. Really?

    If you actually understood, why wouldn’t you have responded with an appropriate answer to the question?
    Why, at the very least, wouldn’t you have provided the verse from Genesis that Paul is referring to?

    …..

  99. Well I’m sorry to hear that you’re ill, and I have offered up a prayer for your recovery and health.
    Having done that, since you say that you yourself understand, I will provide the meaning for others and for the edification of those in the Lords Church.

    Within Galatians 4:21-31. where Paul provides an explanation for what is one of Father God’s damah’s or allegories, (Hosea 12:10.) Paul speaks specifically about five (5) individuals from the past, and how the historical account of what is recorded about their lives, also consists of duality of meaning.
    (Just like the historical account of what is recorded in Genesis 22:1-19. is also a damah or allegory where Abraham symbolically represents a “type” of Father God, and Isaac symbolically represents a “type” of JESUS.)

    These five (5) individuals are Abram/Abraham, Hagar, Ishmael and Sarah, Isaac, where Paul, within these passages of Galatians, explains the duality of meaning, and who the “women and children” symbolically represent as a damah or allegory.
    (I have provided sufficient evidence above as to who that is already.)

    Therefore, Galatians 4:29.;
    “But as then he that was born after the flesh PERSECUTED him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”
    is referring to Genesis 21:9.;
    “And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, MOCKING.”
    and how Ishmael, who was born through the flesh, MOCKED (tsachaq – in context, belittled or disparaged) and PERSECUTED (diōkō – in context, harassed, troubled, molested and persecuted) Isaac, that was born through the Spirit.

    This can be substantiated by Galatians 4:30. coinciding directly with Genesis 21:10-12.

    But what does Paul mean in Galatians 4:29?

    Well for one, he is confirming the truth of Ecclesiastes 1:9.;
    “The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun” and that history is repeating itself.

    Nevertheless, in context based upon the previous text from Galatians 4:21. forward, Paul is stating that;
    “Just the same as it was when Ishmael that was born through the flesh “belittled, disparaged, harassed and persecuted” Isaac that was born through the Spirit in their day, the same thing was happening again when Paul wrote this epistle to the Galatians.”

    History was repeating itself, and the damah or allegory that was foreshadowed, had come to fruition.

    Now again, if one understands Paul’s explanation of this damah or allegory through the Spirit, then they should also understand that Ishmael was created by flesh, (Genesis 16:4., Gal. 4:23. & 29.) through Hagar the slave woman, and in being born First (1st. Older), he symbolically represents the First (1st. Older) Covenant of Mosaic Law.
    The (1st. Older) Law of the earthly Jerusalem, (Gal. 4:25.) of flesh, bondage, (Gal.4:24,25.) and the desolate children that will be Cast Out. (Gal. 4:27. & 30.)
    Therefore, Ishmael as a Firstborn (1st. Older) son, also symbolically represents a “type” of Israel, Father God’s Older Firstborn (1st.) son, (Exodus 4:22.).

    So what Paul is stating in Galatians 4:29. is, that those that STILL believe that it is necessary to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, are “belittling, disparaging, harassing and persecuting” those that DON’T believe that it is necessary to religiously observe the Mosaic Law.

    The Galatians believed in JESUS as their Saviour, and had been Born of the Spirit, yet Paul felt that it was necessary to write them a letter of correction regarding what they had begun to practice.
    Paul states that he is AFRAID for them, (Gal. 4:11.) and calls them FOOLISH, (Gal. 3:1.) for being BEWITCHED, (Gal. 3:1.) into becoming CIRCUMCISED and in starting to follow and observe the MOSAIC LAW.

    Though those that translated the Bible into the more contemporary languages, also created chapters and verses, they placed what Paul said after 4:31. into chapter 5:1., where the “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” should have been Galatians 4:32., for in context, the “YOKE OF BONDAGE” is most definitely referring to the MOSAIC LAW.

    Paul was afraid for the Galatians because they had chosen to be, and associate themselves with ISHMAEL rather than ISAAC.
    They had been persuaded to be flesh, (Genesis 16:4., Gal. 4:23. & 29.) and observe the First (1st. Older) Covenant of Mosaic Law, be a part of the earthly Jerusalem, (Gal. 4:25.) bondage, (Gal.4:24,25.) and to be one of the desolate children that will be Cast Out, (Gal. 4:27. & 30.).

    Rather than to “Standing fast in the liberty where Christ had made them free” by Living solely in FAITH and TRUSTING in the sufficiency of Father God’s Promise regarding JESUS.
    Choosing to be ISAAC’S, and associating themselves as “children of Abraham” by Living in Faith, (Galatians 3:7-9.), choosing to be Spirit, and TRUSTING in the Second New Covenant of Freedom FROM the Mosaic Law, partaking in the Heavenly Jerusalem, as “Children of Promise”.

    Where if the Galatians continued in that behaviour of religiously observing the Mosaic Law, “Christ would be no benefit to them at all” because they would have “fallen from Grace” being now “obligated to observe” the entire corpus of Mosaic Law which would apply specifically to them as man or woman, (Gal.5:2-4.).

    Sadly, if Paul were alive today, he would be writing the exact same thing.
    For there are many Ishmael’s within the Hebrew Roots Movement, that are attempting to BEWITCH and PERSECUTE ISAAC’S, that live solely by FAITH and who totally TRUST in the sufficiency of Father God’s Promise regarding JESUS today. History is repeating itself again.

    The Mosaic Law is NOT of FAITH, (Gal. 3:12.).
    The Mosaic Law consists of rules and regulations with the unattainable hope for mere man to attain righteousness, (Deuteronomy 6:25.).

    JESUS is the End of the Mosaic Law for RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone that believes, (Romans 10:4.)
    GRACE offers us the Free Gift in the partaking of the RIGHTEOUSNESS of JESUS. (We didn’t obtain RIGHTEOUSNESS, JESUS did.)
    FAITH is the TRUSTING in God the Father’s PROMISE of JESUS, and all of HIS Finished Work on our behalf.
    We maintain our access to RIGHTEOUSNESS by Living in that FAITH and TRUST.

    We either choose to LIVE by that FAITH, or we can choose to go back to the Mosaic Law, in which case we are then “obligated to observe” the entire corpus of Mosaic Law which would apply specifically to each of us, because by that choice, “Christ would be no benefit to us at all” and we would have “fallen from Grace”. Therefore the Mosaic Law becomes ones only hope to attain any righteousness whatsoever.

    We can’t be both ISAAC and Ishmael at the same time.
    Only ISAAC was the HEIR, (Genesis 24:36., 25:5.)
    Only the CHILDREN that TRUST in GOD’S PROMISE, the CHILDREN OF PROMISE will be HEIR’S.

    …..

  100. So Marianne,
    Did you happen to read my reply to Shoshana, on your “Rich Young Ruler vs. Prosperity Gospel” page, regarding her erroneous belief that Abraham somehow observed the Mosaic Law, and that is how he was imputed with righteousness?

    What Paul says in Galatians 2:21. simply destroys the validity of her belief completely.
    “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the (Mosaic) law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

    Though a prophet, Abraham was just a mere man, and even if the Mosaic Law had somehow been revealed to him prior to Sinai, he as mere man wasn’t capable of attaining “righteousness” through the Mosaic Law.
    Romans 3:9-18. where Paul quotes from Job, Psalms, Ecclesiastes and Isaiah confirms that very fact.
    If mere man could attain “righteousness” through the Mosaic Law, then there was no need for a “Saving Messiah”, and like Paul says, “JESUS died in vain” because man could have saved themselves, through and by their own works.

    Though I believe that I provided substantial evidence to the contrary regarding her belief, I suspect that she will continue to believe it anyway.
    Unfortunately, even if substantive evidence is provided for someone, where mere logic and common sense would dictate the truth, it’s human nature to feel secure in the things that we believe, and it’s difficult to be open to admitting that we could be wrong and be willing to change.

    Humour me for a second.
    Though I could provide you with more, here are just five points to take into consideration…..

    1) The majority of Israel DOESN’T believe in JESUS as the Messiah.
    1) The individuals that belong to the True Church, DO.

    2) Israel then is NOT born of God’s Spirit and are simply Flesh, (John 3:6.).
    2) The individuals that belong to the True Church, ARE born of God’s Spirit, and are SPIRIT, (John 3:6.).

    3) Israel is STILL IN THEIR SIN.
    3) The individuals that belong to the True Church, have been FORGIVEN OF THEIR SIN.

    4) Israel is Still Under the Judgement of the Mosaic Law.
    4) The individuals that belong to the True Church, have been Redeemed From the Mosaic Law.

    5) Therefore, based upon all of the above, Israel HASN’T been SAVED.
    5) The individuals that belong to the True Church, HAVE been SAVED.

    Yet you believe that “the individuals that belong to the True Church” have been GRAFTED into Israel?

    But wait, if we are grafted into Israel, yet the individual Jewish members of Israel have been BROKEN OFF because of UNBELIEF, (Romans 11:17.,19,20.), does that mean that the individual Jewish members of Israel have been BROKEN OFF from themselves?
    How does that work?
    And if so…. where does that leave us exactly?

    Perhaps, just perhaps, Paul is still speaking about the REMNANT according to the ELECTION of GRACE that he references in Romans 11:5.
    And that Gentiles have been GRAFTED IN WITH those First Jewish Individual Believers that DID BELIEVE, that JESUS was the MESSIAH.
    They would be the Natural Branches that WEREN’T BROKEN OFF because of UNBELIEF, as opposed to the Natural Branches of Jewish Individuals that WERE BROKEN OFF because of UNBELIEF.

    That way the FIRSTFRUIT and the ROOT is JESUS and the LUMP and the BRANCHES are the ONE NEW MAN comprised of both JEWISH and GENTILE BELIEVERS.

    But hey, what do I know?
    Unfortunately, logic and common sense aren’t necessarily common attributes.
    Continue to believe what you wish.
    You may as well continue to believe that Abraham was aware that he would father Isaac through Sarah from the very beginning too.

    This is all happening as God the Father has planned and is prophecy coming to fruition.

    …….

    • gm

      abraham was deemed righteous through faith alone. there was no mosaic law then

      only those in gentile and jewish groups who have been reborn are saved

      the promise is that more jews will be saved during the tribulation, ( time of jacob’s trouble). hopefully more gentiles too

      please write shorter comments

  101. Marianne,
    I thought that you were concerned about “truth” in respects to God’s Word here on your site?

    Your response demonstrates the lack of attention that you pay to what is written within the posts.
    My very first sentence above reads;
    “Did you happen to read my reply to Shoshana, on your “Rich Young Ruler vs. Prosperity Gospel” page, regarding “HER ERRONEOUS BELIEF” that Abraham somehow observed the Mosaic Law, and that is how he was imputed with righteousness?”

    “HER ERRONEOUS BELIEF”!
    “HER” referring to “SHOSHANA”!

    The following 127 words, (if comprehended) should have made you well aware, that IT WAS NOT MY BELIEF.

    The POINT I was attempting to make in my last post was, no matter HOW ABSURD someone’s BELIEF may be, even if you confront that INCORRECT BELIEF with insurmountable Biblical evidence to the contrary, the individual being indoctrinated or convinced that their belief is true, will continue to believe it.

    I then addressed YOUR BELIEF, that BELIEVER’S of the TRUE CHURCH are GRAFTED into UNBELIEVING ISRAEL who are NOT members of the TRUE CHURCH.

    Try reading my last post again with that understanding.

    ……

  102. Marianne,
    I disagree, you are deflecting because you DIDN’T address the topic of the BELIEVING Church being GRAFTED into UNBELIEVING Israel at all.

    All Law-Keepers BELIEVE the same as you do, that the “Firstfruit and the Root” is UNBELIEVING Israel rather than JESUS.
    And in doing so, they’re edifying “UNBELIEVING Israel and the Mosaic Law” above that of JESUS and are therefore quenching the Spirit of His influence.

    As absurd as Shoshana’s BELIEF is, regarding Abraham observing and fulfilling Mosaic Law, the Law-Keepers BELIEF that the BELIEVING Church has been GRAFTED into UNBELIEVING Israel is as equally absurd.

    We DON’T go from FLESH to SPIRIT only to be GRAFTED back into FLESH again, WE STAY IN SPIRIT.

    However as I had said above, many people will simply maintain their INCORRECT BELIEF, no matter how much Biblical evidence to the contrary someone provides for them.
    Unfortunately for them, what people may or may not believe will end up being inconsequential, God’s Word and what HE says, supersedes any and all incorrect human beliefs.

    ……

    • I told you that I did not want to get into complicated debates., you raise too many issues at one time, and I just don’t have the time to micro answer every point.

  103. Please try to connect the dots…

    When Father God calls us and we believe in JESUS, as individual’s we go from FLESH and SIN to SPIRIT and Forgiveness, and we do our best NOT TO SIN again.

    So BELIEVER’S DON’T go from FLESH to being Born of the SPIRIT and then RETURN back to FLESH again, INSTEAD WE STAY IN SPIRIT as One New Man.

    Therefore, BELIEVER’S also DON’T go from FLESH to SPIRIT to then be GRAFTED back into FLESH (or Israel) again, and return to the state of our Old Man either.

    This is what Paul is stating within his explanation of one of Father God’s damah’s or allegories in Galatians 4:21-31.

    We don’t go from being Ishmael, (FLESH) to being Born of the SPIRIT, (ISAAC) and then RETURN back to Ishmael (FLESH) again, INSTEAD WE STAY IN SPIRIT, as a CHILD of PROMISE like ISAAC, and as One New Man.

    Or because of “WHO and WHAT” Paul explains that these TWO CHILDREN symbolically represent……

    We as BELIEVER’S DON’T go from, FLESH and the MOSAIC LAW, become Born of the SPIRIT as a CHILD of PROMISE, and RETURN to the MOSAIC LAW again.

    We BEGIN our NEW LIFE as ONE NEW MAN when we BELIEVE and are Born of the SPIRIT.

    Now in taking into account the above, what do you think that Paul is saying as he chastises the Galatians below in Galatians 3:3.?

    “Are ye so foolish? having BEGUN IN THE SPIRIT, are ye now made perfect by the FLESH?”

    The Galatians, (predominately Gentiles) were merely FLESH (John 3:6.). And whether they happened to be aware of it or not, they were UNDER THE JUDGEMENT of the MOSAIC LAW, BEFORE they BELIEVED in JESUS and were Born of the SPIRIT, (John 3:6.).

    WHEN they BELIEVED in JESUS and were Born of the SPIRIT, they were then REDEEMED from the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 3:13. and 4:5.).
    (Logic would dictate that if Gentiles weren’t also UNDER the JUDGEMENT of the MOSAIC LAW, there would be NO NEED to REDEEM them from it.)

    So Paul calls them FOOLISH.
    WHY?

    Because they like us, were initially FLESH, they were ISHMAEL’S that were UNDER the JUDGEMENT of the MOSAIC LAW.

    When they BELIEVED in JESUS and were Born of the SPIRIT, they became One New Man, and a CHILD of PROMISE.
    They became ISAAC’S and were REDEEMED from the MOSAIC LAW.

    But now they have RETURNED to trying to PERFECT themselves through the FLESH again by Observing the MOSAIC LAW, and have RETURNED to being ISHMAEL’S instead of STAYING as being ISAAC’S IN the SPIRIT and CHILDREN of PROMISE.

    Hence Paul stating in Galatians 5:1.;
    “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

    There is ONLY ONE FOLD and ONE SHEPHERD, (John 10:16.).
    Those that DON’T try to religiously observe the Mosaic Law understand the FIRSTFRUIT and the ROOT to be JESUS.
    Those that DO try to religiously observe the Mosaic Law understand the FIRSTFRUIT and the ROOT to be Israel.

    Both groups CAN’T be RIGHT, because there is ONLY ONE TRUTH.
    ISAAC was the HEIR, NOT Ishmael.

    If you still can’t understand this, God knows that I tried.
    Perhaps all of this will help someone else.

    …..

  104. Marianne,

    Before I address your question of “What is the Mosaic Law to me?”
    How in good conscience, let alone before God, can you possibly claim “that you know all of this?”

    It was only three months ago, (on November 15th. 2016, post # 361102) I had asked you the following questions;

    “Tell me, you believe and understand that “Abraham” was a “type” of “God the Father” within Genesis 22:1-19. – correct?
    And that “Isaac” was a “type” of “Jesus” within those same passages – right?”

    Where after providing substantive evidence of that symbolic representation, I concluded that post with the questions;

    ”Who” do you suppose that “Ishmael” being “firstborn” symbolically represents and foreshadows?
    And “why” and for “what purpose” did Father God allow for Hagar to conceive Ishmael by Abram?
    And just as important, though Ishmael would have been present within Genesis 18., “why” wasn’t he even mentioned once or ever acknowledged by the Lord or His Angels throughout their entire time together?”

    If you actually knew and understood all of this, you would have responded and answered the very first question with “ETHNIC ISRAEL” right away.

    Instead in your reply you stated, (and please allow for me to emphasize with capitals, and to place some words in quotations);

    “I GUESS following your logic, Ishmael might be considered the ANTICHRIST SPIRIT.”

    You then continued by saying;

    “Why he was born FIRST, to show how Abram produced FLESH instead of SPIRIT by by “failing to believe” in the PROMISE of a child by Sarah.
    Hagar was FLESH, and REBELLION AGAINST the PROMISE, and so was HER SON.
    Ishmael was NOT mentioned because he was NOT the ONE PROMISED, he was the RESULT OF MAN’S actions, NOT GOD’S.”

    Now I acknowledged your response in my following reply of November 15th. 2016. comment 361120, by saying;

    “Actually, your response in many ways is quite accurate, though it does miss the mark regarding “who” Ishmael symbolically represents and foreshadows “specifically”, not only by my “logic, thought or opinion”, but also by some critical passages that are provided within the New Testament.”

    You would know by now that the passages that I was referring to were obviously Galatians 4:21-31. and though I didn’t address the specifics at the time, the reason that I thought that your response was quite accurate in many ways, is because;

    “ISHMAEL and UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL was/is FLESH and NOT SPIRIT, (John 3:6.) and UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL is AGAINST CHRIST and have in essence, an ANTICHRIST SPIRIT.
    HAGAR was FLESH and therefore so IS HER SON, where BOTH ISHMAEL and UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL are in REBELLION AGAINST the PROMISE of CHRIST.
    Therefore, ISHMAEL and UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL are NOT mentioned because THEY are NOT the ONE PROMISED. THEY are the RESULT OF THEIR OWN ACTIONS, NOT GOD’S.”

    The reason that I didn’t include the above at the time, was because I wanted for you to make the connection of Ishmael symbolically representing Unbelieving Ethnic Israel yourself.
    If someone simply tells somebody something, then it’s like advice which can be taken or discarded. However if somebody experiences their own “Ah-Ha” moment, that knowledge is more readily taken to heart.

    So within my reply of November 15th. 2016, 361120, I continued to maintain the tangent, and proceeded with my defense of Abram and “why” he actually went through with what he did with Hagar and cause the birth of Ishmael to take place, and that is where our conversation began to go off the rails.

    For though our conversation continued, where you also continued to compare Ishmael to only Anti-Christ, and didn’t make the connection as to how Ishmael would also be specifically associated to FLESH, and UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL as a symbolic comparative, you made the following statement in your post of November 22nd. 2016, 361277.;

    “ok. just a note. the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham. sarah laughed at the news, since she was old when sarah’s son was finally born, they named him isaac, which means laughter. the only reason ishmael was born was because sarah and abraham had grown impatient, and thought god needed a little help, which was a dumb mistake…. and we are still paying for that mistake today.”

    Though I attempted to express to you the chronological time line that is recorded Biblically in my post of November 23rd 2016, 361285, you simply chose to not believe it.

    So how about this line of reasoning?

    I’m going to present something to you, that I hope may shed some light, something that may make you question what you currently believe.
    I’d like for you to mull it over and take it into consideration, then respond sometime tomorrow.
    Your response will be a determining factor as to whether I will make any additional posts, or address your question of “What is the Mosaic Law to me?”.

    Above you have stated;
    “the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham. sarah laughed at the news, since she was old when sarah’s son was finally born, they named him isaac, which means laughter. the only reason ishmael was born was because sarah and abraham had grown impatient, and thought god needed a little help”

    And in a previous comment that you had made, I had place a few words in quotations;
    “Why he was born first, to show how abram produced flesh instead of Spirit by “FAILING TO BELIEVE” in the PROMISE of a child by sarah.”

    Now… It is my sincere hope that you also believe as I do, that if any belief that we might have CONTRADICTS SCRIPTURE, then that BELIEF is in ERROR.

    So let’s look at Genesis 26:5.;
    “Because that Abraham OBEYED my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

    Now both you and I are in agreement that this verse has nothing to do with the Mosaic Law.
    Simply because it is the very first time that “tôwrâh” is used in Scripture and written in plural as “torot”, it is referring instead to Abraham OBEYING EVERYTHING that was asked of him by the Divine.

    So, if “the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham”, yet he then chose instead to attempt to conceive a son through Hagar, WOULDN’T that DEMONSTRATION be considered to be an ACT of DISOBEDIENCE?

    And instead of me providing you with the plethora of verses that would substantiate that Abram/Abraham had ONLY FAITH and BELIEF, why don’t you provide me with one solitary verse that would confirm your belief that, “abram produced flesh instead of spirit by “FAILING TO BELIEVE” in the PROMISE”.

    While you’re attempting to reconcile your belief with Scripture, you may wish to consider this as well?
    In your post of November 25th. 2016, 361348, you conclude what you have to say with the following;

    “We are NOT “GRAFTED” INTO CHRIST, we are naturally his branches if we are saved… the concept of grafting relates gentiles to Israel.”

    So as a LAW-KEEPER you proclaim that “we” are NOT “GRAFTED” INTO CHRIST, but into UNBELIEVING FLESH, NOT BORN of the SPIRIT, STILL IN THEIR SIN, NOT SAVED, STILL UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW, ANTI-CHRIST and REBELLIOUS ETHNIC ISRAEL that are also NOT UNDER GRACE.

    Well to me that is simply preposterous, because if I WASN’T SPIRITUALLY GRAFTED into CHRIST, then HOW is it possible to be a part of HIS BODY?
    (Romans 12:5., 1 Corinthians 10:16,17., 12:12-31., Ephesians 1:22,23., 2:15,16., etc. etc. etc.)

    UNBELIEVING FLESH, NOT BORN of the SPIRIT, STILL IN THEIR SIN, NOT SAVED, STILL UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW, ANTI-CHRIST and REBELLIOUS ETHNIC ISRAEL, that are NOT UNDER GRACE, is also NOT PART OF CHRIST’S BODY, so WHY would the LORD GRAFT BELIEVER’S into THEM.

    I’m interested in reading your response sometime tomorrow.

    …….

  105. Well above today, January 18th 2018, comment 374574 at 9:55pm. you say;

    “I told you that I did not want to get into complicated debates., you raise too many issues at one time, and I just don’t have the time to micro answer every point.”

    I see that you really took the necessary time to consider what I had said.
    All of less than 20 minutes from my post at 9:36pm. to your response at 9:55pm.

    Well unfortunately for you, God’s Word is complicated, and His Ways and Thoughts are Higher than ours, (Isaiah 55:9.), so discovering His Truth takes prayer, and concerted effort, as well as a willingness to change what we may believe.

    Since you are either unable or unwilling to understand what I have provided to you so far, it wouldn’t make much sense to also provide to you the reason for the Mosaic Law, or for WHO it was SOLELY intended for either.

    So I’ll just wish you all of the best, and say, “we’ll find out in the end” who between the two of us, is more correct with what they believe.

    …..

  106. What you perceive as being argumentative, I consider to be, “Defending the Gospel of Christ”.
    Fundamental’s and the Truth of that Gospel, should be fully understood.
    Whether “we” as Believer’s in JESUS should still attempt to religiously observe the Mosaic Law or not, would be one of those Fundamental’s.

    I have expressed my view point and you have expressed yours.
    I will continue to do my best and Walk in the Spirit, as a Child of Promise in Faith and Trust in the Lord’s Finished Work on the Cross.
    You will still continue to do, whatever it is that you do, as a proponent of the Mosaic Law.

    I will have Faith and Trust that I’ve been Grafted into Christ and His Body.
    Where you have been grafted back into Unbelieving Ethnic Israel.

    Again, we’ll find out in the end, who between the two of us, is more correct with what they believe.

    …..

  107. To Everyone that happens to be led here.

    Above in my last post, I had made the point that “Fundamental’s” of the Gospel of CHRIST and the Truth of that Gospel, should be fully understood, and that whether “we” as Believer’s in JESUS should still attempt to religiously observe the Mosaic Law or not, would be one of those Fundamental’s.

    There are many different ways that I could address this topic, however the most critically important KEY to understanding the answer to this question, would be what Paul says within Galatians 4:21-5:1..
    If these passages are fully understood, then the answer to the aforementioned question regarding “whether Believer’s should attempt to religiously observe the Mosaic Law still”, would also be fully understood.

    Remember that Saul/Paul was chosen by JESUS Himself to perform a specific task. That task being to preach the Name of JESUS and His Good News for mankind, to Gentiles, Kings and the children of Israel. (Acts 9:15.)
    Paul was also caught-up to heaven, to be taught and properly equipped with the Truth, before he began in this mission. (2 Corinthians 12:1-6.)

    So you would either Believe what Paul would have to say and take it readily to heart, or by NOT doing so, Believe instead that JESUS is FALLIBLE, and that HE made a MISTAKE in HIS choice of Paul.
    Personally, I would highly recommend the first option, however, I leave that choice up to you.

    Now, reading something and understanding something are two separate things. This would be especially true, when we are speaking of God’s Word.
    Though we may be relatively proficient in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, we really only receive the TRUTH, when it is received through the Spirit.

    Though I could go through each and every verse in detail, and break down the definitions from the original Greek, what I will do instead, is provide for you what is being stated in a more familiar and contemporary language.

    Remember as well, that when Paul wrote this letter, the Galatians were already Believer’s in JESUS, and had also already been Born of the Spirit.
    And that the New Second Covenant text hadn’t been compiled yet, so the only reference material that was available, was the Tanakh.

    Paul starts off these passages by questioning the Galatians;

    4:21. “Tell me something, those of you that desire to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, don’t you understand the teaching that is recorded in Torah?

    4:22. “In the Torah it is written that Abram/Abraham had two distinctly different sons. The First son that he had was Ishmael, and he was born through Hagar who was a slave maid. The Second son that he had was Isaac, and he was born through a woman that was completely Free.

    4:23. “Ishmael was born through Hagar the slave by Flesh, by the mere act of human effort and procreation. But Isaac was born through Sarah the woman that was Free by the fulfillment of God’s Promise, and by Divine Intervention through God and Spirit just like JESUS was.”

    4:24. “What Torah is teaching you is, that these Two distinctly different Mother’s and Son’s, symbolically represent and foreshadow the Two distinctly different Covenants. Hagar being the First, symbolically represents both Mount Sinai where the Mosaic Law was given, and the First Covenant, where that First Covenant left the people in bondage to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, in a futile human attempt to attain righteousness before God, by their own fleshy effort.”

    4:25. “Let me say that again so that you will totally understand, what Torah is teaching you is, that Hagar symbolically represents Mount Sinai in Arabia. Therefore Hagar symbolically represents the First Covenant of the Mosaic Law. Hagar is the symbolic equivalent to the Jerusalem that exists today. Hagar represents the Mother of the earthly Jerusalem, who along with her children, are also in bondage to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, in a futile human attempt to attain righteousness before God, by their own fleshy effort.”

    4:26. “But what is distinctly different than the Jerusalem that exists today, is that the Heavenly Jerusalem that we are a part of is Free.
    Where Hagar symbolically represents Mount Sinai in Arabia, the First Covenant and Bondage, where her children need to religiously observe the Mosaic Law in a futile human attempt to attain righteousness before God, by their own fleshy effort.

    Sarah symbolically represents Freedom from all of that.

    Sarah symbolically represents the Heavenly Jerusalem, the New Second Covenant and Freedom, where like Isaac, we are her children, and she represents our Mother. Sarah’s Children Don’t need to religiously observe the Mosaic Law in a futile human attempt to attain righteousness before God, by their own fleshy effort. Sarah’s Children through Grace and Promise, have access to CHRIST’S Righteousness.”

    4:27. “Don’t you understand that what is written in Isaiah 54:1. is referring to Sarah and Isaac as opposed to Hagar and Ishmael?
    Sarah was the woman that was barren and couldn’t give birth. Yet Sarah can Rejoice and cry out in Joy, because God fulfilled His Promise of a son through Divine Intervention by God and Spirit, just like He did with Mary who was a virgin and JESUS.
    All of this is a foreshadowing of what would happen with Mary and JESUS.
    Sarah was the only legitimate wife that Abram/Abraham ever had. Abram may have taken Hagar as a wife, but God never changed Hagar’s name. God only changed Sarah’s name from Sarai after He changed Abram’s to Abraham. God only recognized Sarah as Abraham’s wife, so she is the only one that has a Husband.
    That means that Hagar’s children are the many children that are desolate. Hagar’s children are Ishmael’s. Hagar who represents the Mother of the earthly Jerusalem, who along with her desolate children, are also in bondage to religiously observe the Mosaic Law in a futile human attempt to attain righteousness before God, by their own fleshy effort.”

    4:28. “But brother’s we are not Ishmael’s, children that are desolate and in bondage, having to religiously observe the Mosaic Law. We are Isaac’s and are instead, Children of Promise and Free from all of those rules and regulations.”

    4:29. “Don’t you understand that the teaching that is written in Torah, and what happened between Ishmael and Isaac is history repeating itself?
    That just as Ishmael who was born of Flesh mocked and belittled Isaac that was Born of Spirit is happening all over again today? That those that proclaim to you, and have persuaded you to religiously observe the Mosaic Law as they do, are symbolically represented by Ishmael, where we are Isaac’s?”

    4:30. “With that being the case, what does the Torah teach about what will happen to them? Sarah said to Cast Out both Hagar and Ishmael, because the son of a Slave won’t be an Heir with the Son of the Free.
    God agreed with Sarah and told Abraham to do what she said.
    That means that Hagar who symbolically represents Mount Sinai in Arabia, the First Covenant, the earthly Jerusalem, and Bondage to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, and her many desolate children, all of her Ishmael’s will be Cast Out.

    But why I’m Afraid for you and have called you Foolish, is because even though you already Believe in JESUS and have also been Born of the Spirit, if you attempt to religiously observe the Mosaic Law too, then you choose to be Ishmael’s rather than Isaac’s and will also be Cast Out. You have chosen to be a Slave again and won’t be an Heir with the Son of the Free. You by your choice, have disregarded God’s Gift of Grace.”

    4:31. “So my dear brother’s, don’t become an Ishmael and a desolate child of Hagar that will be Cast Out and not be an Heir. Instead remain an Isaac and a Child of Promise of Sarah’s where if you do so, you will become an Heir.”

    5:1. “Therefore Stop what you’ve been persuaded to do by those Ishmael’s, where they have tricked you into religiously observing the Mosaic Law, and remain Strong and Steadfast in the Liberty where through Christ’s Death and Finished Work He has made us Free from the Mosaic Law, and don’t be subjected or ensnared by the Mosaic Law again.”

    Whether you choose to believe the above or not, it is basically the gist of what Paul is saying. Especially when you take into account everything else that he says within the Book itself.

    For those that understand the above through the Spirit, you will now also understand why I have stated that we CAN’T be both an Ishmael and an Isaac at the same time. We either Live by FAITH and in TRUST of CHRIST’S Death and Finished Work on the Cross as a Child of Promise and a Isaac, that will become an Heir.

    Or we choose to become an Ishmael and attempt to justify ourselves, by religiously observing the Mosaic Law, in which case you will be Cast Out and won’t become an Heir, because by doing so, you have also disregarded God’s Gift of Grace.

    This would be just another reason why Believer’s are NOT grafted into Unbelieving Ethnic Israel. Because Unbelieving Ethnic Israel will be Cast Out where the True Children of Promise WON’T be.
    However it is interesting to note, that it is been my experience over the years, that virtually every individual that still attempts to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, believes that they ARE grafted into Unbelieving Ethnic Israel. What is sad and why I am also afraid for them is, by choosing to religiously observe the Mosaic Law, they have become an Ishmael and ARE grafted into Unbelieving Ethnic Israel by choice.

    My Last Post.

    …….

    • gm

      maybe the grafting part was not clear. scripture says that we are grafted into the olive tree (israel), but then only those in christ are saved. which means that those of israel who are not saved are no longer part of the tree. but then he says if they be saved later, they can be grafted back in again, and if we reject christ ourselves later, our branches can be removed.

      you do not understand what the mosaic law is…………….there is a moral component which is eternal, and a ritual component which is temporal…..things like circumcision and sacrifice for sins are done away with and replaced by grace. but we are still expected to obey the moral component….it would make so sense for idolatry, stealing, murder sexual immorality and adultery to suddenly become legitimate. while under grace, if we commit these and other moral sins, we are expected to repent and ask for forgiveness. if we do, we are forgiven. grace is not an excuse to sin and get away with it.

  108. Marianne,

    I know that I said that the above would be my last post, but this just came to me so I thought that I’d just post it in a last ditch effort.

    When Peter went to Caesarea and brought BELIEVING Cornelius and his family into the FOLD, was Cornelius GRAFTED into NATURAL UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL or INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST?

    Was BELIEVING Cornelius and his family GRAFTED into NATURAL UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL that HAS NOT been FORGIVEN of THEIR SIN, or were THEY GRAFTED INTO the FIRST JEWISH BELIEVER’S who HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN of THEIR SIN?

    IF they had been GRAFTED into ISRAEL then WHY did ISRAEL PERSECUTE the BELIEVER’S?

    …….

  109. “YES” The answer to question 1 would be, “Cornelius and his family were GRAFTED into INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST”!

    The answer to question 2 would be, “Cornelius and his family were GRAFTED into the FIRST JEWISH BELIEVER’S who HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN of THEIR SIN”!

    The answer to “IF they had been GRAFTED into ISRAEL then WHY did ISRAEL PERSECUTE the BELIEVER’S?” would be answered by Scripture itself in Galatians 4:29.;

    “But as then he (ISHMAEL) that was born after the FLESH PERSECUTED him (ISAAC) that was born after the SPIRIT, even so it is now.”

    ISHMAEL symbolically represents NATURAL, UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL and FLESH.

    ISAAC symbolically represents JESUS and the SPIRIT.

    It is apparent to me, that you don’t understand Paul’s explanation of what is one of Father God’s allegories within Galatians 4:21.- 5:1..
    If you did, you would understand that we AREN’T Grafted into Israel at all, and you certainly WOULDN’T attempt to religiously observe whatever Law of Moses that you have chosen to try to keep either, because you would be AWARE of what the consequences are in doing so.

    Though you say that “this line of questioning is unnecessary” it is your inability to connect the Spiritual dots, that demonstrates to me just how necessary it is. My heart goes out to you.

    …….

  110. ???

    To me you seem to contradict yourself quite a bit regarding what you say you believe.

    In your post of November 25th. 2016, 361348, you say, “We are NOT “GRAFTED” INTO CHRIST, we are naturally his branches if we are saved… the concept of GRAFTING relates GENTILES TO ISRAEL” yet above you say that you “already know and believe what I am trying to explain to you” and contradict yourself.

    On December 3rd. 2017, 373295, (emphasis in brackets mine) you say, “We may not be under the (Mosaic) law, as we are under grace, but our morality is still based on “IT” (“IT” referring to the Mosaic Law) and we should still OBEY the moral (Mosaic) law. nothing has been done away with…some parts are FULFILLED, not done away with, and other parts are still unfulfilled.”
    Then after quoting Scripture you say, “We are not under the (Mosaic ) law or need it to be saved, but WE STILL NEED TO OBEY IT.”

    And that my dear woman is “why” I don’t think that “know and believe what I am trying to explain to you” AT ALL.

    We WALK IN THE SPIRIT and DON’T attempt to religiously observe the Mosaic Law. That is the POINT that Paul expresses within Galatians 4:21-5:1.
    Walking in the SPIRIT, and having FAITH and TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY in GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS is THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

    Attempting to Walk In and religiously observe the Mosaic Law “NULLIFIES and VOIDS” the Grace of God!
    (Simply look at the definitions of the word “FRUSTRATE” in Galatians 2:21. K.J.V.)

    Paul chastises the Galatians, calls them FOOLISH and says that he is AFRAID for them, because they had begun to “Walk In and religiously OBEY the Mosaic Law ”, and he tells them in Galatians 5:3.;

    “For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.”

    Or in context and from the definitions of the morphological Greek New Testament text;
    “For I’m declaring to you again, that every man that BELIEVES that it is NECESSARY to be CIRCUMCISED, and does so, is now OBLIGATED to FULFILL ALL (each and every commandment, with no exception) of the MOSAIC LAW that pertains to YOU.”

    WHY would Paul DIRECT any BELIEVER in JESUS that’s been BORN of the SPIRIT and who is supposedly “NOT under (Mosaic) Law, BUT under Grace” to place themselves BACK UNDER the MOSAIC LAW?

    Because as per Galatians 5:4.;
    “CHRIST is become of NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of YOU ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE (MOSAIC) LAW; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.”

    Or again in context and from the definitions of the morphological Greek New Testament text;
    “You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, and have RENDERED WHAT HE HAS DONE FOR YOU COMPLETELY INEFFECTUAL. Those of YOU that are SEEKING TO JUSTIFY YOURSELVES BY RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVING THE MOSAIC LAW, HAVE FALLEN and LOST the GIFT of GRACE and GOD’S GRACE IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE TO YOU!”

    SO, because the Galatians had SEVERED THEMSELVES FROM CHRIST, and had LOST THE GIFT OF GRACE, Paul was DIRECTING and telling THEM that THEY were NOW OBLIGATED to FULFILL ALL (each and every commandment, with no exception) of the MOSAIC LAW that pertains to THEM, because it was NOW THEIR ONLY OPPORTUNITY TO OBTAIN ANY righteousness WHATSOEVER.

    FAITH is NOT ONLY a BELIEF, it is also an UNWAVERING TRUST.
    Those who are UNDER GRACE are supposed to LIVE by FAITH and TOTALLY TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and in the FINISHED WORK of JESUS.

    If one actually understands the Book of Galatians, then one would know that they had been persuaded to religiously observe the MOSAIC LAW.
    By religiously observing the MOSAIC LAW, they weren’t demonstrating LIVING by FAITH and TOTAL TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE or in the FINISHED WORK of JESUS.

    The above can be confirmed by Galatians 3:12.;
    “And the (MOSAIC) LAW IS NOT OF FAITH, but, The man that doeth them SHALL LIVE IN THEM.”

    If the MOSAIC LAW is NOT FAITH, we as BELIEVER’S have a CHOICE.
    We EITHER LIVE by FAITH and TOTALLY TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and in the FINISHED WORK of YESHUA, or WE LIVE TOTALLY by RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVING THE MOSAIC LAW, where by doing so, one SEVERS THEMSELF FROM CHRIST and LOSES the GIFT OF GRACE.

    That is what you DON’T “know or believe” and what “I’ve been trying to explain to you”, and “why” I’ve invested the time that I have here.
    It’s the GOSPEL of CHRIST.

    And though I am well aware that you won’t believe any of this and will STILL attempt to OBEY the MOSAIC LAW, that is also “why” my heart goes out to you.

    You will Walk in and OBEY the MOSAIC LAW, and I will Walk in my FAITH and TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK of JESUS, and we will find out in the end as to which of us Walked In THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

    …….

  111. (Sigh)….

    Marianne,
    I’ve have contended with others that believe the exact same as you do for many, many years, and I can assure you that I clearly understand what you have said, and what you and they happen to believe.
    However, that does NOT make WHAT you and they believe RIGHT.

    Unless you actually understand the following, this will definitely be my last post here.
    So, I’m asking for you… No, I’m begging for you, to “please, please” pay attention to what I would like to say.

    Above in your last response you say,
    “scripture says that we are grafted into the olive tree (israel)”

    That is what you THINK that Scripture says, but it DOESN’T say that at all.
    What Scripture ACTUALLY says, is that “we are grafted into a “kallielaios” or “a good or cultivated olive tree, a domesticated and improved olive tree” and you and others have simply ASSUMED that it is referring to “Israel”.

    Both you and they have neglected to take into account much of what Paul expresses within those passages.

    For example, some of what you and they have not taken into account, would be what Paul says in Romans 11:17.,19. where he says that some “Branches” had been “Broken Off”. As per Romans 11:20. these “Natural Branches that were Broken Off would be Ethnic Israel”, and they were “Broken Off because of Unbelief”.

    One should be able to understand through the process of Simple Common Sense, that Ethnic Israel hasn’t been Broken Off from THEMSELVES.

    Therefore, the Natural Branches of Unbelieving Israel have been BROKEN OFF from “SOMETHING ELSE”.
    THEY have been BROKEN OFF from the “Good, Cultivated and Improved Olive Tree” so that the Gentiles could be Grafted into that “Good, Cultivated and Improved Olive Tree” that the Natural Branches of Unbelieving Israel have been BROKEN OFF from.

    The question for you is;
    “Who Does This Good, Cultivated and Improved Olive Tree” figuratively represent, when it CAN’T possibly be referring to the Natural Branches of Unbelieving Israel have been BROKEN OFF?”

    In Romans 11:9., Paul quotes King David from Psalms 69:22.

    “And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a STUMBLINGBLOCK, and a recompence unto them:”

    What David said in this verse is, “and that which should have been for their welfare” derived from “shalowm”, Paul replaces with “STUMBLINGBLOCK”.

    Now WHO would Father God have provided Ethnic Israel with, that would have been for THEIR WELFARE, that has instead become THEIR STUMBLINGBLOCK?

    If your answer ISN’T CHRIST, JESUS the MESSIAH, then you may as well stop reading here and now.
    BECAUSE the natural, UNBELIEVING branches of ethnic Israel have been BROKEN OFF from the COVENANT OF PROMISE that Father God had made to Abraham. They have been BROKEN OFF from CHRIST because of THEIR UNBELIEF.

    CHRIST is the ROOT of the GOOD, CULTIVATED and IMPROVED OLIVE TREE, that the First Jewish BELIEVER’S were GRAFTED into, and GENTILES are also GRAFTED into CHRIST with them, as ONE NEW MAN, because room had been made in THAT TREE because the Natural, UNBELIEVING Branches of Ethnic Israel had been BROKEN OFF from it.

    Romans 1:16.;
    “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; TO THE JEW FIRST and also to the THE GREEK.”

    In Romans 11:5. Paul also speaks of the REMNANT, ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE.
    The First Jewish BELIEVER’S that were GRAFTED into CHRIST became part of this REMNANT, ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE.
    The Gentile BELIEVER’S that were also GRAFTED into CHRIST, also became part of this REMNANT, ACCORDING TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE.
    BOTH BECAME the ONE NEW MAN.

    NATURAL, UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL is NOT a PART of THIS REMNANT, because the INDIVIDUAL’S that DON’T BELIEVE have BEEN BROKEN OFF.

    Because Individual’s from NATURAL, UNBELIEVING ETHNIC ISRAEL have been BROKEN OFF from CHRIST, they are NOT PART of CHRIST’S BODY, and are NOT part of the ONE NEW MAN, they are NOT PART of THE REMNANT, they are NOT FORGIVEN of their SIN, they have NOT been BORN of the SPIRIT instead they are FLESH.

    So why in heavens name, would FATHER GOD graft those that believe and have FAITH and TRUST in HIM and HIS SON into natural Israel?

    But notice this as well.
    They are also NOT UNDER GRACE and therefore NOT SAVED, and are INSTEAD STILL UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW.

    Logically then, if SOMEONE IS UNDER GRACE, then they SHOULDN’T participate and OBSERVE the MOSAIC LAW, but instead Live in FAITH and TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of FATHER GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS.

    If you don’t believe that HAVING THE ACTUAL SPIRIT of GOD and CHRIST dwelling in you, is FAR SUPERIOR than ANY WRITTEN WORD to GUIDE YOU IN LIFE, then anything that I may have to say would only fall on deaf ears and blind eyes anyway.

    BUT, haven’t you ever noticed that CHRIST when addressing the Churches within Revelation says, “Let him hear what the SPIRIT saith” instead of saying, “Let him read what the Law of Moses says”?

    If you don’t understand the above, and clearly admit that what you believe is wrong, then it would be simply pointless to address what you say regarding the Mosaic Law, and this IS my last post.

    Another thing that you haven’t been able to comprehend, (though I’ve provided you with substantial Scripture to verify it) is, that like Natural, Unbelieving Ethnic Israel is STILL UNDER THE MOSAIC LAW, if you attempt to religiously observe the MOSAIC LAW yourself, you SEPARATE yourself from CHRIST and FALL FROM GRACE and become just like Natural, Unbelieving Ethnic Israel.

    And that’s why my heart goes out to you and why I’ve invested the time that I have here with you.

    …………

    • i understand the olive tree and what I said was consistent with what you said.

      again you do not understand the mosaic law, which I explained to you

      according to you I can live an immoral life, because I am under grace.

  112. Again, SIGH.

    You say above, “i understand the olive tree and what I said was consistent with what you said.”

    Well I have said, that the HOLY, (without sin, blemish or spot) FIRSTFRUIT and the ROOT of THE TREE are “CHRIST”.

    You are saying, that “ETHNIC ISRAEL”, (those that are still in their SIN) are the FIRSTFRUIT and the ROOT of THE TREE.

    How in the world, (or where and in what world) are those DISTINCTLY OPPOSITE declarations “consistent” with each other?

    Here is a PARALLEL for you to take into consideration.
    “When a Unbelieving Jewish Individual reads Scripture, when they come to a verse that is referring to CHRIST, they DON’T recognize HIM, and instead SUBSTITUTE “ISRAEL” in CHRIST’S place.
    Because THEY have been BLINDED by GOD from the TRUTH.

    When a Law-Keeper reads Scripture, when they come to a verse that is referring to CHRIST, they DON’T recognize HIM either, and instead they also SUBSTITUTE “ISRAEL” in CHRIST’S place.
    Have Law-Keeper’s by THEIR behavior, also been BLINDED from the TRUTH???”

    Regarding the Mosaic Law, and whether THOSE that have been BORN of GOD’S SPIRIT should still attempt to RELIGIOUSLY OBSERVE the MOSAIC LAW?

    The answer regarding that, WOULDN’T be ascertained by anything that “I may say” or that “You may say”, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING THE WORD OF GOD.

    Again, the Galatians “BELIEVED in JESUS” and had been “BORN of THE SPIRIT”. RIGHT?
    YET, Paul calls them “FOOLISH” (Gal. 3:1.,3.) and says that he is “AFRAID” for them, (Gal. 4:11.). RIGHT?
    Paul does this because, the Galatians had begun to practice a DIFFERENT GOSPEL than what he had taught THEM initially, (Gal.1:6.,7.). RIGHT?

    Now, both You and I have already agreed and established the FACT, that Unbelieving, Ethnic Israel is STILL FLESH. RIGHT?
    John 3:6. and what JESUS says within that verse would CONFIRM that FACT. RIGHT?
    Therefore, the MOSAIC LAW was provided for a people that were FLESH.

    So attempt to understand what GOD SAYS THROUGH PAUL in the following verses, which I will simply record in plain language.

    Galatians 3:1-3..

    “Oh you FOOLISH Galatians, who has Tricked and Persuaded you (to practice this different gospel) rather than simply OBEYING THE TRUTH?
    All of you have been made well aware that Jesus Christ has been Crucified and has Died for you.

    Let me ask you this question; “Did you receive THE SPIRIT of GOD by the WORKS of the MOSAIC LAW, or, did you receive THE SPIRIT of GOD when you heard the Gospel by FAITH?

    Are you really that FOOLISH that you think that AFTER you have received THE SPIRIT of GOD, and have begun your new journey, that you will somehow be made perfect and complete by the FLESH?”

    The CONTEXT above is, that GOD is expressing through Paul, that there is a DIFFERENCE between FAITH and MOSAIC LAW.
    Therefore when Paul utilizes the word “FLESH” above, he is utilizing it “FIGURATIVELY” and is referencing the MOSAIC LAW.

    You also say above, “according to you I can live an immoral life, because I am under grace”.

    “NO” that is NOT what I’ve been saying at all.

    What I’ve been trying to explain to you, (over and over again) is what GOD SAYS THROUGH PAUL.

    What GOD SAYS THROUGH PAUL is, that because you have chosen to “practice a DIFFERENT GOSPEL” and “attempt to religiously observe the MOSAIC LAW” RATHER that LIVING BY FAITH and TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK of JESUS …… YOU ARE NO LONGER UNDER GRACE BUT UNDER LAW.

    Above I had posed the question, “Have Law-Keeper’s by THEIR behavior, also been BLINDED from the TRUTH???”

    If you don’t understand the above, then that would answer that question.
    And though I am well aware that you won’t believe any of this and will STILL attempt to OBEY the MOSAIC LAW, that is also “why” my heart goes out to you.

    You will Walk in and OBEY the MOSAIC LAW, and I will Walk in my FAITH and TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK of JESUS, and we will find out in the end as to which of us Walked In THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

    Many are Called, but FEW are Chosen.

    ……..

  113. Marianne,

    As I have said to you before, there is a vast difference between arguing and reasoning, and even you must agree that the consequences regarding God’s Word are eternal, Correct?
    Yet you appear to be so caviller with what I happen to say, and don’t even take what is said to heart for contemplation???
    This would be evident by your last response, which was only 3 minutes after my last post.

    Please allow for me to directly address some of what you have said.

    You make the following statement in your post of January 24th. 2018, 374667.;
    “you do not understand what the mosaic law is….there is a moral component which is eternal, and a ritual component which is temporal…..things like circumcision and sacrifice for sins are done away with and replaced by grace. but we are still expected to obey the moral component….it would make no sense for idolatry, stealing, murder sexual immorality and adultery to suddenly become legitimate. while under grace, if we commit these and other moral sins, we are expected to repent and ask for forgiveness. if we do, we are forgiven. grace is not an excuse to sin and get away with it.”

    I fully believe and agree with you, about everything that you say AFTER, “it would make no sense for idolatry, stealing, etc. etc. etc.”

    However, let’s REASON about something here for a second. Because this POINT that I will try to make again, is vitally important.

    Let’s say that you were a Jew that was born some 2040 years ago. And you were fortunate enough to be one of the Jew’s that was now following JESUS around with His other disciples.
    You have personally seen HIM perform Miracles and Wonders beyond your imagination, and there was NO DOUBT in your mind that HE was INDEED the SON OF GOD and the MESSIAH.
    But then HE said to DO something that would “BREAK THE MOSAIC LAW”, would you “LISTEN and DO what JESUS had said”, or would you instead “LISTEN and DO what is said in the LAW of MOSES”?

    Well, in the parable of the Good Samaritan, (Luke 10:25-37.) the aspect of “Showing Mercy” which was what JESUS SAID would have been the CORRECT COURSE of action for the Priest and the Levite to take, would have meant that for the Priest and the Levite to DO what JESUS had SAID, they would have had to BREAK both Leviticus 22:4-6. and Numbers 19:11-22. of the Mosaic Law.

    If you really believed that JESUS was The Son of God and the Promised Messiah, What would You Do?
    I would hope that you would DO what JESUS TOLD the audience that was there TO DO, and you would understand that ANYTHING that HE may have to SAY, SUPERSEDES ANYTHING that the LAW of MOSES may have to say.

    Now here is the POINT, (that I have attempted to make to you before) which I don’t believe that you’ve fully understood.

    JESUS was FILLED with GOD’S SPIRIT when HE GAVE this advice.
    And the advice itself, “FULFILLED” the aspect of “LOVING OTHERS as we LOVE OURSELVES” by “SHOWING MERCY” to the poor guy that had been mugged.
    YET at the very SAME TIME that advice BROKE the MOSAIC LAW.

    Now the first POINT that I would like to make is that, if we as BELIEVER’S have ALSO been Blessed with GOD’S SPIRIT as our HOLY GUIDE and CONSCIENCE, then THE SPIRIT will ALSO provide us with the CORRECT COURSE of action to take, whether it is CONTRARY to the Law of Moses or not.

    This would mean that I DON’T require the knowledge of Mosaic Law regarding “idolatry, stealing, murder sexual immorality, adultery” or whatever, to determine what is “right or wrong” BECAUSE by WALKING IN THE SPIRIT I am well aware that I am to abstain from these things.

    Being Blessed with GOD’S SPIRIT as my HOLY GUIDE and CONSCIENCE, I have GOD the FATHER’S LAW WRITTEN ON MY HEART, just like JESUS DID, and with that, I am also well aware that BEING UNDER GRACE, IS NOT A LICENCE TO SIN.

    (So your ASSUMPTION of how I may live my life by walking in the SPIRIT was INCORRECT.)

    BUT I am NOT PERFECT.
    If I was PERFECT, then I wouldn’t require a SAVIOUR.
    If I were PERFECT then I would be more than capable of FULFILLING the MOSAIC LAW, and attain the SAME designations of “Being WITHOUT SIN, BLEMISH and SPOT” and the subsequent designation of being RIGHTEOUS that CHRIST attained, just like HE did.

    But again I’m NOT PERFECT.
    I desperately require ALL OF HIM.
    Though I do my very best to WALK IN THE SPIRIT everyday, I still fall woefully short of JESUS when HE was here as a MAN….. and I sin.

    What is scary is, that since I have no reference point here on this earth to show me the Majesty and Magnitude of what constitutes “HOLY”, though I know that I fall woefully short, I suspect that I don’t really know “HOW” woefully short.

    Nevertheless, because I also LIVE by FAITH and TOTALLY TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS, and am so very GRATEFUL for EVERYTHING that HE SUFFERED and ACCOMPLISHED for me on my behalf, I am hopefully UNDER GRACE, and I confess my SIN’S and pray for Forgiveness every night.

    Now here is the second POINT that I would like to make.

    If an individual attempts to religiously observe the Mosaic Law still, “THEY HAVE TO BE AS PERFECT AS FATHER GOD IS PERFECT”!

    CHRIST after rigorously expounding on the depth and scope of the Mosaic Law says in Matthew 5:48.;
    “Be YE THEREFORE PERFECT, even as your FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN IS PERFECT.”

    The DIFFERENCE between WALKING in the MOSAIC LAW, as opposed to WALKING in the SPIRIT, with FATHER GOD’S LAW WRITTEN on our HEARTS, is that the MOSAIC LAW DEMANDS PERFECTION, whereas WALKING in the SPIRIT offers LATITUDE.

    WALKING in the SPIRIT, and LIVING by FAITH and TOTALLY TRUSTING in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS, offers us GRACE, a COMPLETELY UNDESERVED COMPASSION AND MERCY, because FATHER GOD knows full well, that NONE OF US AS MAN CAN BE PERFECT.

    This is WHY Paul tells us that JESUS with HIS DEATH has “REDEEMED” us FROM the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 3:13. & 4:5.)

    You also say in your post of December 3rd. 2017, 373295, emphasis in brackets mine.
    “we may not be under the (Mosaic) law, as we are under grace, but our morality is still based on it and we should still obey the moral (Mosaic) law. nothing has been done away with (the Mosaic Law)…some parts are FULFILLED, not done away with, and other parts are still unfulfilled.”

    Now I have just provided you with what Paul, the CHOSEN MESSENGER of JESUS (Acts 9:15.) said in that, CHRIST has REDEEMED us from the Mosaic Law.
    Paul doesn’t say JUST PORTIONS or PARTS OF THE MOSAIC LAW, but more than implies, the WHOLE OF THE MOSAIC LAW.

    So I leave you with just one solitary question for you to answer.

    Other than the aspect that the Mosaic Law will still be used as God’s Instrument for judgement…..
    if you BELIEVE that “some parts of the Mosaic Law have been Fulfilled and other parts are still Unfulfilled” is the TEACHING OF GOD, rather than the teaching of men, then you should be able to provide Scripture within the New Covenant text as evidence for that BELIEF.

    If you can’t, then HOW do you know WHAT has been Fulfilled and WHAT hasn’t?

    Since you’re a proponent of the Mosaic Law yourself, wouldn’t not possessing that knowledge pose a problem?
    Because remember you have to be PERFECT and James says in 2:10.;

    “For whosoever SHALL KEEP the WHOLE (Mosaic) LAW, and yet OFFEND in one point, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL.”

    ………

    • gm

      you are still arguing.

      the samaritans were ancestral jews, from tribes of ephraim and manessah. it was inexcusable to ignore a fellow jew in distress.

      the NT constantly upholds the moral law…..and grace does not excuse anyone from breaking it.

      1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer?…

      14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6

      you cannot walk in the spirit and disobey the law, and to not even know right from wrong is also inexcusable. the law is the teacher of right vs wrong. without the knowledge of what is right, we cannot make the right choices. you cannot walk in the spirit if you do not know what is right or wrong

      Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Romans 10:3

      jews 2000 years ago were walking by many man made laws, called ordinances, which ignored and contradicted the true laws of mercy and grace.. these were cancelled

      also, it was the DEBT due to breaking the law that was nailed to the cross, not the law itself

      13 When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15 And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.… Col 2

      please read your NT again…

  114. LOOK,
    The reason that I’ve continued with you in this endeavour, is because you are a RARITY.
    As a Law-Keeper, you are “one” of only a few individuals that DON’T BELIEVE that Abram/Abraham obeyed or kept any of the MOSAIC LAW.
    That Abram was Declared to be Righteous SOLELY by FAITH.

    When you first interacted with me here, it was in response to a question I had posed to whoever might still be reading.
    The subject was regarding “WHO and WHAT was the Significant Event that had to occur BEFORE Abram was Declared to be Righteous?”

    Though Abram had obeyed and completed every Direction and Instruction that YHVH had asked for him to do, he still WASN’T Declared Righteous, UNTIL AFTER this EVENT took place.

    You in reading that, had an “Ah-Ha” moment, and knew that the answer was “Melchizedek” and that “Melchizedek” was a Foreshadowing of “JESUS”.

    So the sequence of events with Abram was;

    1) In the beginning he was just a mere man doing his very best to be a good person and please God, but he just couldn’t obtain a state of Righteousness.

    2) But AFTER “Melchizedek – JESUS” made HIS appearance, Abram had FAITH and was then Declared RIGHTEOUS.

    3) Abram/Abraham then continued to LIVE out his Life SOLELY by FAITH, and had nothing to do with the Mosaic Law, because the Mosaic Law WOULDN’T be revealed on Sinai until 430 plus years in the future.

    God says that, “He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” all of which, PREDATE the Mosaic Law.

    To paraphrase, in Isaiah 51:1,2., “God Directs and Instructs for those that pursue Righteousness, to look to Abraham our Father and to Sarah, (our Mother).”

    God says through Paul in Galatians 3:6-9.;

    “Even as Abraham BELIEVED God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of FAITH, the SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen THROUGH FAITH, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. SO THEN, THEY WHICH BE OF FAITH ARE BLESSED WITH FAITHFUL ABRAHAM.”

    BELIEVER’S in JESUS (Melchizedek) are to emulate Abram/Abraham by walking as HIS CHILDREN in HIS FOOTSTEPS.

    Our sequence would be the SAME as Abram/Abraham’s.

    1) In the beginning WE are just mere man of FLESH, doing our very best to be a good person and please God, but WE just CAN’T obtain a state of Righteousness on our own.

    2) But then AFTER WE BELIEVE and have FAITH IN JESUS, WE ARE BORN OF GOD’S SPIRIT and WE receive GOD’S Free Gift of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    3) Therefore, being CHILDREN of ABRAHAM, WE WALK IN HIS FOOTSTEPS and continue to LIVE out our Life SOLELY by FAITH, IN THE SPIRIT, and have nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. WE DON’T RETURN TO FLESH. WE STAY IN THE SPIRIT.

    If it is clear to me that by what you Believe, that “You are ELEVATING the MOSAIC LAW above that of GOD’S SPIRIT” then it would also be CLEAR TO GOD.
    And if you DON’T see as to HOW that would place you in JEOPARDY, then there’s really not much more that I can say, which hasn’t already been said during the course of this long drawn out discussion?

    Other than perhaps saying, “Please read The New and Better Covenant text again”, because the “DEBT” that JESUS NAILED TO THE CROSS by HIS DEATH, for TRUE BELIEVER’S THAT LIVE SOLELY BY FAITH, (Like their Father Abraham) WAS the “WHOLE CORPUS of THE MOSAIC LAW!

    WE either LIVE SOLELY BY FAITH like ABRAHAM, or we live by the Mosaic Law, (which Abram/Abraham never did.)

    As CHILDREN WE are either ISAAC and a CHILD OF PROMISE, and an HEIR, or you are Ishmael, a desolate child that WON’T be and heir, but will instead be CAST OUT.

    The CHOICE is up to you.

    Habakkuk 2:4.;
    “Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: BUT the JUST (those who walk just like Abraham did) SHALL LIVE BY HIS FAITH.”

    I’ve said my piece.

    ………

    • gm

      now you are rambling on about abraham. I cannot explain it any clearer and you would not get it anyhow. if you have lots of faith, but still sin and do not repent, you are going to hell

  115. I’m not rambling on about Abraham, I used Abraham as an example as to HOW TRUE BELIEVER’S are to WALK in FAITH.
    I can’t explain it any clearer either, I basically used a crayon to express what for TRUE BELIEVER’S is simply common knowledge.

    You say that “I would not get it anyhow”.
    Well that is inaccurate, because I totally understand what you are trying to say.
    It’s just that through GOD’S SPIRIT, I also know that what you are trying to say, IS FALSE.

    Your interpretation of the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, DOESN’T EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLE ANYTHING THAT PAUL SAYS.

    It’s NOT the Gospel according to Marianne.
    IT’S THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO PAUL.
    YOU weren’t CHOSEN by JESUS to be HIS MESSENGER, Paul was.
    YOU weren’t CAUGHT UP to HEAVEN and TAUGHT the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, Paul was.
    So you’ll excuse me, if I place far more weight upon Scripture and WHAT PAUL has to say, than what you may have to say.

    But I have expressed everything that I wanted to say, with the hopes that you would re-evaluate what you believe.
    Simply because you haven’t received any of it, doesn’t diminish the Truth of it.

    As I have said before, this is all happening for a reason.
    It is simply history repeating itself, (Ecclesiastes 1:9.) where those of the FLESH are PERSECUTING those of the SPIRIT (Galatians 4:29.) and it is a component of, and the fulfilment of, the Prophecy of what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:3., regarding the “FALLING AWAY” or “apostasia”.

    So you carry on, and LIVE your Life by Following the Mosaic Law.
    And we’ll see which of us were Following the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and WHO ended up actually being UNDER GRACE.

    ………

    • I quoted The Gospel According to Paul to you and gave you references and you still don’t get it . I am not under the law but I do obey God’s moral precepts . you have no idea what I believe or do not believe ..you do not understand anything I say. there are lots of false Converts out there who think all they have to do is believe while they continue in sin . this is a false gospel.

  116. I disagree, You quoted Scripture of what Paul may have said, however you understand what Paul has said incorrectly.
    And speaking of understanding Scripture incorrectly, you apparently also have difficulty in understanding the English language, and what I have said too.

    You say in your post of January 27th. 8:59 pm above, “if you have lots of faith, but still sin and do not repent, you are going to hell”.
    And you say in your last post of January 28th. at 1:28am, “there are lots of false Converts out there who think all they have to do is believe while they continue in sin . this is a false gospel.”

    Therefore you must not have been able to understand what I had said previously on January 27th. at 4:30 am.?

    I said;

    “Being Blessed with GOD’S SPIRIT as my HOLY GUIDE and CONSCIENCE, I have GOD the FATHER’S LAW WRITTEN ON MY HEART, just like JESUS DID, and with that, I am also well aware that BEING UNDER GRACE, IS NOT A LICENCE TO SIN.

    BUT I am NOT PERFECT.
    I desperately require ALL OF HIM, (JESUS).
    Though I do my very best to WALK IN THE SPIRIT everyday, I still fall woefully short of JESUS when HE was here as a MAN….. and I sin.

    What is scary is, that since I have no reference point here on this earth to show me the Majesty and Magnitude of what constitutes “HOLY”, though I know that I fall woefully short, I suspect that I don’t really know “HOW” woefully short.

    Nevertheless, because I also LIVE by FAITH and TOTALLY TRUST in the SUFFICIENCY of GOD’S PROMISE and the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS, and am so very GRATEFUL for EVERYTHING that HE SUFFERED and ACCOMPLISHED for me on my behalf, I am hopefully UNDER GRACE, and I confess my SIN’S and pray for Forgiveness every night.”

    So if you actually understood that, HOW could you possibly continue to say, “if you have lots of faith, but still sin and do not repent, you are going to hell” and “there are lots of false Converts out there who think all they have to do is believe while they continue in sin . this is a false gospel”????

    You are simply rambling by repeating something that is irrelevant.

    Whatever, you carry on, and LIVE your Life by Following the Mosaic Law.
    And I’ll LIVE by Walking in the SPIRIT, solely by FAITH and by FOLLOWING the LAW OF CHRIST.
    And we’ll see which of us were Following the GOSPEL OF CHRIST, and WHO ended up actually being UNDER GRACE.

    ………….

    • gm

      Paul MAY have said??

      I gave you direct quotes with references

      you need to get saved.

      you babble on with a canned argument, but you do not understand the scriptures

      and you still do not understand the mosaic law

      learn to read the bible for yourself, instead of giving me copy and paste arguments from someone else.

      if you walked in the spirit, you would understand what I say and understand the old and new testaments

      you are a troll, and you are wasting my time

      I am blocking you

  117. You don’t have to block me, because I’m not going to return.

    I will however close with this;

    I started my last post above by saying;

    “You quoted Scripture of what Paul may have said, however you understand what Paul has said incorrectly.”

    By your response of “Paul MAY have said??”

    YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND that English sentence in CONTEXT either.

    How about if I phrase WHAT I SAID this way?

    “Though you quoted Scripture of WHAT PAUL SAID, your interpretation of WHAT PAUL SAID is INCORRECT.”
    (Hopefully you understood that.)
    But do you SEE as to HOW easily the written language CAN be MISUNDERSTOOD?

    By the way, NOTHING that I have said has been “Copied and Pasted” from anybody else.
    (You were incorrect with that assumption as well.)

    Now Marianne, the following is NOT meant for YOU.
    It is meant for anyone else that might be reading this now, or in the future, that is having difficulty in understanding the DISTINCTIONS between the Mosaic Law and FAITH.

    Galatians 3:12. is rendered in the Morphological Greek New Testament text, (what Paul actually wrote by hand) as;
    “ὁ δὲ νόμος οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ πίστεως ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιήσας αὐτὰ ζήσεται ἐν αὐτοῖς”

    This would translate as rendered as;
    “However, the (Mosaic) Law NOT is of FAITH on the CONTRARY he who practices them (“them” referring to the Mosaic Law) shall live by them (again “them” referring to the Mosaic Law)”, where Paul is referencing Leviticus 18:5.

    So if the “Mosaic Law is Not of Faith”, they are clearly DIFFERENT from one another, and being different, they produce different results.
    Paul also appears to be saying in this verse, since the Mosaic Law is different than Faith, we either choose to live by one or the other.
    HOW VAST these differences are, are explained by Paul within Galatians 4:21 through 5:1..

    In my post of January 20th. 2018 at 12:05am, (post # 374584) which starts off by saying “To Everyone that happens to be led here”, I provide what would be the “gist” or “intent” of what Paul is saying within the passages of Galatians 4:21 through 5:1.
    Within these passages, Paul is explaining an “ALLEGORY”, (or the Hebrew “דָּמָה” or “damah” from Hosea 12:10.).

    The simple definition of what an “allegory” is, would be that it’s a “story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a HIDDEN MEANING, typically a moral or political one”.

    However, since Paul is explaining an “ALLEGORY” that has been provided for us as TEACHING by Father God, and is explaining WHAT the “HIDDEN MEANING” of this “ALLEGORY” consists of, it is IMPERATIVE that it is FULLY understood.

    Because if it is fully understood, then the DISTINCTIONS between the Mosaic Law and FAITH will also be understood, and this KNOWLEDGE will assist you in placing the word “LAW” in the CORRECT CONTEXT every time that it is mentioned within the New Covenant text.

    Because unfortunately, the translators, only translated the Greek word “νόμος” or “nomos” as “LAW”.
    This “fact” is what has caused the Church to be so fractured, because the word “LAW” itself can be expressing “The Mosaic Law”, “What is written in the Torah that PREDATES the Mosaic Law”, “What God provides as , Tôwrâh, Direction, Instruction and Teaching that is throughout the WHOLE Bible” and as well, and MOST importantly, what is also “The LAW of CHRIST”.

    For those that are seeking the Truth in respects to this topic, and who have a humble heart, I pray that the Spirit that dwells within you, provides you understanding.

    …………..

  118. Well your BLOCK was rather easily overcome.
    But DON’T worry.
    There’s NO reason for me to really say anything else to you at all, SO I WON’T BE RETURNING.

    I will however close with this;

    I started my last post above by saying;

    “You quoted Scripture of what Paul may have said, however you understand what Paul has said incorrectly.”

    By your response of “Paul MAY have said??”

    YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND that English sentence in CONTEXT either.

    How about if I phrase WHAT I SAID this way?

    “Though you quoted Scripture of WHAT PAUL SAID, your interpretation of WHAT PAUL SAID is INCORRECT.”
    (Hopefully you understood that.)
    But do you SEE as to HOW easily the written language CAN be MISUNDERSTOOD?

    By the way, NOTHING that I have said has been “Copied and Pasted” from anybody else.
    (You were incorrect with that assumption as well.)

    Now Marianne, the following is NOT meant for YOU.
    It is meant for anyone else that might be reading this now, or in the future, that is having difficulty in understanding the DISTINCTIONS between the Mosaic Law and FAITH.

    Galatians 3:12. is rendered in the Morphological Greek New Testament text, (what Paul actually wrote by hand) as;
    “ὁ δὲ νόμος οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ πίστεως ἀλλ’ ὁ ποιήσας αὐτὰ ζήσεται ἐν αὐτοῖς”

    This would translate as rendered as;
    “However, the (Mosaic) Law NOT is of FAITH on the CONTRARY he who practices them (“them” referring to the Mosaic Law) shall live by them (again “them” referring to the Mosaic Law)”, where Paul is referencing Leviticus 18:5.

    So if the “Mosaic Law is Not of Faith”, they are clearly DIFFERENT from one another, and being different, they produce different results.
    Paul also appears to be saying in this verse, since the Mosaic Law is different than Faith, we either choose to live by one or the other.
    HOW VAST these differences are, are explained by Paul within Galatians 4:21 through 5:1..

    In my post of January 20th. 2018 at 12:05am, (post # 374584) which starts off by saying “To Everyone that happens to be led here”, I provide what would be the “gist” or “intent” of what Paul is saying within the passages of Galatians 4:21 through 5:1.
    Within these passages, Paul is explaining an “ALLEGORY”, (or the Hebrew “דָּמָה” or “damah” from Hosea 12:10.).

    The simple definition of what an “allegory” is, would be that it’s a “story, poem, or picture that can be interpreted to reveal a HIDDEN MEANING, typically a moral or political one”.

    However, since Paul is explaining an “ALLEGORY” that has been provided for us as TEACHING by Father God, and is explaining WHAT the “HIDDEN MEANING” of this “ALLEGORY” consists of, it is IMPERATIVE that it is FULLY understood.

    Because if it is fully understood, then the DISTINCTIONS between the Mosaic Law and FAITH will also be understood, and this KNOWLEDGE will assist you in placing the word “LAW” in the CORRECT CONTEXT every time that it is mentioned within the New Covenant text.

    Unfortunately, the translators, only translated the Greek word “νόμος” or “nomos” as “LAW”.
    This “fact” is what has caused the Church to be so fractured, because the word “LAW” itself can be expressing “The Mosaic Law”, “What is written in the Torah that PREDATES the Mosaic Law”, “What God provides as , Tôwrâh, Direction, Instruction and Teaching that is throughout the WHOLE Bible” and as well, and MOST importantly, what is also “The LAW of CHRIST”.

    For those that are seeking the Truth in respects to this topic, and who have a humble heart, I pray that the Spirit that dwells within you, provides you understanding.

    …………..

  119. The timescale from the Book of Enoch:

    Creation of Adam c3950-40 BC
    Flood c2550-40 BC
    Abraham c1850-40 BC
    Law c1150-40 BC
    Second Temple c460-40 BC
    (reference point for these BC/AD dates)
    Ascension between 460 BC and 250 AD
    The Final Judgement before 3050 AD

    This leaves barely time for a thousand years of Christ reigning but means a second coming by 2050 AD at latest and most likely before 2040.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

w

Connecting to %s