Seals Overlap

clip_image002

Tribulation is a time of increasing destruction.

Revelation 6 is given below.

Note that the Seals are opened one at a time.

Nowhere does it say that once a seal is opened, it is then closed, and another seal is opened.

This means that once a seal is opened, it remains opened while other seals are opened.

And this means that the Tribulation events get worse and worse, and destruction increases over time:

Revelation 6King James Version (KJV)

6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

clip_image003

This is actually a compassionate way to wake people up as trouble comes.

Instead of all coming at once, which would be overwhelming, each seal is opened, one at a time, and people are allowed in their distress to repent.

In my view, the seals have been partially opened for 2000 years. But one would open, then close.

At times, for example, we would have famine, but then we would prosper again.

Or, there would be a time of pestilence, as in the bubonic plague, but then that would pass.

Or, there would be a war, but it would finally end.

image

In the Tribulation, things just get worse.

We are entering into this now, just maybe days, weeks, or months to go.

Even one of these seals by themselves is unbearable.

Only with the Lord’s help will any of us make it to the end.

Time to repent.

Humble ourselves before God,

Ask for forgiveness and mercy.


231 Responses to “Seals Overlap”

  1. I think you are correct that the things of the past were temporary times but more permanent one-off things are happening these last decades that happened before to a small degree but happen now in full. The Man of Lawlessness is prophesied in the writings of Paul the Apostle as a sign of the coming of Christ drawing near. When in the late sixties the worldwide rebellions and the mass embracing of rebellion became fashionable and China followed other countries in having rebellion put to the top of the agenda and justified by its leaders and set a trend still followed till today around the world, the end came into sight for believers in the prophecy. Perhaps the atrocities of war such as the Vietnam War triggered or fuelled it. So too now we have it fuelled by over the top use of weaponry and excessive sophistication of weaponry. The fire from the sky terrorising of political enemies fuels the desire for leaders to justify rebellion because people in fear harden their hearts against excessive domination of their lives and long for a way out that justifies sin. People lose heart trying to resist sin and obey authority. They see no hope except in rebellion. They do not see Christ and forget that Christ died on a cross of wood to provide a better way. Soon Christ will come. But only in the midst of a greater time of evil than the Rebellion: He will come during the last tribulation of the prophesied 666 trial. The 666 trial will come on all the Earth and try hearts of all. In this time Christ will come and bring it to an end and help those who refuse to be branded with that 666 sign. They say times like this 666 tribulation happened in the Middle Ages with merchants needing branded hands to trade, then the Holocaust showed the device of devilry happening again with a precursor of computers being used to support number system tatoos of Hebrew people under the awful oppressive Nazis. But 666 on a worldwide scale will happen as Christ is about to come and be interrupted by His coming. Tribulation is indeed just about to get a whole lot worse.

  2. So it looks like 2 Thessalonians 2 rebellion has begun and is happening and possibly a Man of Lawlessness mentioned and who will remain until the Lord comes is prototyped in a few key leaders who have been endorsing rebellion and justifying rebels on mass but maybe 2 Thessalonians means there will be a more terrible one like this who will be alive at Christ’s coming and be defeated by Christ. It might coincide with the Revelation prophesied ten monarchs of the Beast (Europe?) and the leaders of the second Beast too and one of these monarchs or leaders instigating the 666 system because Christ coming will include overthrow of such and ending of the awful 666 system. The start of Enoch chapter 89 seems relevant to provide a closer look at times leading up to Christ’s return too, perhaps meaning times we are in from WW 2 onwards.

  3. I thought the first half of the Tribulation begins with Israel’s peace treaty?

    • Not necessarily. It can begin with either God and a Heavenly sign or with the Antichrist as in the case of the Norweigan Peace Medallion. But the key to those 7 year covenant’s is what happens at Passover when they occur
      For example, Israel became a nation in 1948 +62 Shavuots = 2009 and Obama’s Norweigian Peace Medallion in the 7th Biblical Month +1260 days = March 22, 2013 trip to Israel where 10 events occurred +1290 days = Day of Atonement, 2016. In 2010 5 planets lined up in a row on the 7th day of Feast of Tabernacles +1260 days = Passover 2014 and a shophar blowing out of the East for 4 to 7 minutes +1290 days = Day of Atonement, 2017.
      So which Covenant of Peace should we use to start the seven years even though there is no seven days of tribulation mentioned in the Bible but there is 10 days of Tribulation mentioned in the Bible where a day = a year.

    • marlene

      daniel mentions a covenant with many but does not say it is a peace treaty.

      it could be an alliance of israel’s enemies formed to attack Israel

      it could be the dividing of jerusalem or giving land for peace again, but there is no peace

      it could involve Israel’s participation or be an agreement without caring for Israel’s agreement or support, ie it is forced on israel

      the tribulation is 3 1/2 years….it is somewhere in daniel’s last week.

      we will know more as the situation develops

      • It can be deduced from the scripture that it will be a great benefit to Israel, for the making of the seven year covenant obviously allows them to build their temple and to begin to make offerings and sacrifices, which he puts a stop to in the middle of the seven years. Therefore, the covenant that he makes is obviously with Israel and will most likely include Islam, since the dome of the rock sits on the temple mount.

        • since they are refusing to recognize israel as a state and plan to take away jerusalem, this would make it less possible to have a temple…..but i hope to see this happen

          • Hello,

            The above would be impossible for too many reasons. The war of Ezekiel 37-38 still has to take place and Israel is still present in her land when this happens.

            There are also multiple prophesies of God returning Israel to their own land to be permanently established there.

            You have Jesus referring to the setting up of the abomination in the holy place within the temple which causes the desolation in the middle of that last seven years.

            Also, Paul states that the man of lawlessness, the antichrist, will stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God. This is yet to be fulfilled.

            These are just off the top of my head. I’m sure that there are plenty more reasons as to why Jerusalem will not be taken from them. The best reason is that, God won’t allow it.

      • Regarding the covenant, Revelation 13:5 says And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months.

        Daniel 9:27 says He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

        If seven is indicative of seven years, which I believe it is, it is equal to 84 months, the middle of which is 42 months.

        It appears that mankind will give the beast authority for 42 months. Perhaps by election? Election could certainly be considered a covenant. And from my POV, it seems as if mankind hasn’t been too discerning in that area for many years.

        • that might be possible ie through elections

        • Good day charfox,

          You said:
          “It appears that mankind will give the beast authority for 42 months. Perhaps by election? Election could certainly be considered a covenant. And from my POV, it seems as if mankind hasn’t been too discerning in that area for many years”

          The scripture does not say “mankind will give the beast authority” but it says that “he was given authority to act for forty-two months.” The beast is not going to be voted into office. The reason why the people will worship him and receive his mark is because for one, he will receive that fatal wound and will survive it and two, he will also have those miracles, signs and wonders being performed by the false prophet for the purpose of giving him credibility as being God. They will be counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, but the inhabitants of the earth won’t know that. They also won’t know that he is the antichrist/beast and that because they don’t read the word of God.

          • Yes Revelation 13:5 says “it was allowed to exercise authority”. But then you add Daniel 9:27. What the beast is allowed, he will also “confirm with many”.

            Since it is God who puts our rulers in place, also can He determine our election outcomes, giving the beast authority, the authority that is confirmed with many on earth. Election being just one possible scenario. It isn’t something we can know until that day, but shear speculation.

      • So let’s then just delete the 2009 Norweigian Peace Medallion for Obama, Israel becoming a nation in 1948, and the Day of the Lord possibly beginning on October 13th, 2016 and all 20 events that lead up to 2017 timeline and then add 10 years to the existing timeline for Jesus to return in 2030. And the Nibiru timeline will need to be extended to 2028.

  4. Isn’t amazing how the colors of the horses of the apocalypse are the same color as in the muslin countries flags.

  5. Book of Enoch LXXXIX. 1. And I observed during the time, that thus thirty-seven shepherds were overlooking, all of whom finished in their respective periods as the first. Others then received them into their hands, that they might overlook them in their respective periods, every shepherd in his own period. 2. Afterwards I saw in the vision, that all the birds of heaven arrived; eagles, the avest, kites and ravens. The eagle instructed them all. 3. They began to devour the sheep, to peck out their eyes, and to eat up their bodies. 4. The sheep then cried out; for their bodies were devoured by the birds. 5. I also cried out, and groaned in my sleep against that shepherd which overlooked the flock. 6. And I looked, while the sheep were eaten up by the dogs, by the eagles, and by the kites. They neither left them their body, nor their skin, nor their muscles, until their bones alone remained; until their bones fell upon the ground. And the sheep became diminished. 7. I observed likewise during the time, that twenty-three shepherds were overlooking; who completed in their respective periods fifty-eight periods. 8. Then were small lambs born of those white sheep; who began to open their eyes and to see, crying out to the sheep. 9. The sheep, however, cried not out to them, neither did they hear what they uttered to them; but were deaf, blind, and obdurate in the greatest degrees. 10. I saw in the vision that ravens flew down upon those lambs; 11. That they seized one of them; and that tearing the sheep in pieces, they devoured them. 12. I saw also, that horns grew upon those lambs; and that the ravens lighted down upon their horns. 13. I saw, too, that a large horn sprouted out on an animal among the sheep, and that their eyes were opened. 14. He looked at them. Their eyes were wide open; and he cried out to them. 15. Then the dabela saw him; all of whom ran to him. 16. And besides this, all the eagles, the avest, the ravens and the kites, were still carrying off the sheep, flying down upon them, and devouring them…. The sheep were silent, but the dabela lamented and cried out. 17. Then the ravens contended, and struggled with them. 18. They wished among them to break his horn; but they prevailed not over him. 19. I looked on them, until the shepherds, the eagles, the avest, and the kites came. 20. Who cried out to the ravens to break the horn of the dabela; to contend with him; and to kill him. But he struggled with them, and cried out, that help might come to him. 21. Then I perceived that the man came who had written down the names of the shepherds, and who ascended up before the Lord of the sheep. 22. He brought assistance, and caused every one to see him descending to the help of the dabela. 23. I perceived likewise that the Lord of the sheep came to them in wrath, while all those who saw him fled away; all fell down in his tabernacle before his face; while all the eagles, the avest, ravens, and kites assembled, and brought with them all the sheep of the field. 24. All came together, and strove to break the horn of the dabela. 25. Then I saw, that the man, who wrote the book at the word of the Lord, opened the book of destruction, of that destruction which the last twelve shepherds wrought; and pointed out before the Lord of the sheep, that they destroyed more than those who preceded them.

  6. Hello Marriane,

    You said:
    “In my view, the seals have been partially opened for 2000 years. But one would open, then close.”

    The first problem with the seals being opened partially for 2000 years is that, the 1st seal is representing the emergence of the antichrist, who has not yet to be revealed and who will not be revealed until the One who is restraining him is taken out of the way. According to Dan.9:27, he will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant.

    And second, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be the fulfillment of God’s wrath leading up to the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. These plagues of wrath will decimate the population of the earth and will dismantle all human government.

    Since the antichrist is represented by the 1st seal and he hasn’t yet been revealed, then the 1st could not have been opened and therefore, neither could any of the other seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which are to follow.

    One last thing, at the 4th seal death and Hades are given power to kill a fourth of the earth’s inhabitants, which based on the current population of 7 billion, would be 1.7 billion fatalities from just the 4th seal alone. These fatalities are meant to take place within that last seven years. If they were spread out over 2000 years, no one would notice. But if such a great number of fatalities takes place within the beginning of the seven years, then the inhabitants of the earth will take notice, which is what these plagues of wrath are meant to do i.e. get peoples attention.

    • i still think that way

      the bible said that the antichrist spirit was already present, in the times of apostles.. I was not referring to an end time ruler, although there have been rulers in the last 2000 years who were antichrist in spirit, example hitler

      i consider the seals the tribulation, which matches matthew 24, and the trumpets and bowls the wrath of god, which is only for the wicked (saints will be gone)

      we have always, at times had wars. we have always at times had famines, and massive deaths, at times, due to various causes

      when i said partially open, i meant there was a partial fulfillment because those events did happen, but they were not yet on the global scale they will be on when they are fully open

      • Hi Marianne,

        When you break a seal on a scroll, it is either broken and able to be read or not broken and unable to be read. There is no partial broken. Also, the scripture speaks of both the spirit of the antichrist and the literal antichrist. The rider on the white horse that comes out at the first seal is referring to thee antichrist, not the spirit of antichrist. I find one of the most misunderstood prophesies regarding eschatology is the wrath of God. People have no idea what is going to come upon this earth, and many of them are professing Christian’s. These events of wrath are meant to take place within a short period of time and in close proximity to one another and not spread out over 2000 years.

        The announcement “The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it” includes the seals that will have taken place prior to this announcement. What I find that throws people off on their understanding of this, is that they think that the wrath only includes what follows the announcement, which is false thinking. The announcement could be better understood as “The great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.”

        These events of wrath are meant to affect the immediate population of the earth during those last seven years. Regarding the 4th seal, a fourth of the earth’s population would equal approx. 1.7 billion fatalities. Which do you think would get the inhabitants attention, 1.7 billion fatalities spread out over 2000 years, or 1.7 billion fatalities within one to two years?

        When considering this issue, we have to take into consideration of what Jesus said regarding the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, which was that if those days had not been shortened, no one would be left alive on the earth. This type of decimation of the earth’s population would have to take place in close proximity, not spread out over 2000 years. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet alone, which are the only two places that give a percentage, the fatalities will be 4.5 billion and that is not including the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets nor any of the bowl judgments.

        Also, the phrase “like a woman having birth pains” used by Jesus and Paul, supports these events of wrath as taking place in close proximity and not over a 2000 year period. The reference to nation rising against nation, famines, earthquakes, etc. these will be events during that time on an unprecedented scale.

        That first seal, which is the revealing of the antichirst, has not yet taken place. Those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will begin like birth pains, starting off mild and far apart, growing in intensity and closer together as they go. They are meant to be noticed, to get the immediate populations attention and that would not be the case if they are spread out over 2000 years.

        • dmcal

          I guess you do not understand what I mean.

          I just meant that these events described, such as war, desease, famine, martyrdom, have been going on already for 2000 years. as bad as they are, they are limited.

          once the seals are broken, everything on the globe goes into turmoil.

          it means mankind never learned anything from the past 2000 years, and persists in its wickedness.

          i get the definition of seals from matthew 24 which describes the tribulation, after which jesus comes to get the saints.

          after that is wrath, which jesus does not describe to the saints

          • Wrath of God views
            1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Dy of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.
            2) Bowl Judgments, Armageddon Rapture at Passover.
            3) Armageddon Rapture on Day of Trumpet.

            • Hello jardalkal,

              You said:
              “1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Dy of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.”

              The three sets of seven judgments, seals, trumpets and bowls, all make up God’s wrath. Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. These judgments will run throughout the entire seven years leading up to Christ’s return to end the age.

              1 thes.5:9 states that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and 1 Thes.1:10 states that Jesus rescued us from the coming wrath. Jesus also said to the church of Philadelphia, that ” Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.”

              All that said, God is not going to put his church through his wrath and that because the wrath that we deserve was already poured out on Jesus, satisfying it. It would be a slap in the face to Jesus because he already experienced God’s wrath for us.

              Conclusion: Believers in Christ must be removed from the earth prior to the 1st seal being opened.

              • What I’m seeing is that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, in conjunction with the major earthquake, as it is directly after this that the great multitude that has come out of the tribulation is seen. This means that wars and famine occur first and they already occur to an extent.

                • Greetings chargfox,

                  You said:
                  “What I’m seeing is that the rapture occurs at the 6th seal, in conjunction with the major earthquake, as it is directly after this that the great multitude that has come out of the tribulation is seen. This means that wars and famine occur first and they already occur to an extent.”

                  First point: Scripture makes clear that the church will not go through the wrath of God and that because the wrath that we deserve has already been poured out on Christ. Scripture also states that we are not appointed to suffer the coming wrath – 1 Thes.1:10, 5:9. Since the seals are apart of the wrath of God, then the church must be removed prior to the 1st seal being opened. All three sets of seven judgments, the seals, trumpets and bowls, are how God is going to carry out his wrath.

                  Second point: There is nothing in the context related to the 6th seal, either before or after, that says anything regarding believers being gathered. There are some who attempt to make Mt.24:29-31 synonymous with the 6th seal because of the reference to the sun, moon and stars. But the fact is that, though they seem to be the same event, they are in fact two separate events. Mt.24:29-31 is not the gathering of the church, but is referring to the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. When the angels are sent out, they will be gathering living people in their mortal bodies, who will have made it through that entire last seven years. Mt.24:29-31 is synonymous with the parable in Mt.13 regarding the gathering of the weeds and wheat. They are living people who are being gathered. It is not a resurrection.

                  Third point: Regarding that “great multitude which no man can count” the elder asks John who they are and he doesn’t know. John was previously asked to write letters to the seven churches. The very fact that the elder is asking John who this other group is demonstrates that they are not the church. If you will notice, only the word “Ekklesia” translated as “church” is used from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3. Also in those same chapters you will not find the word “Hagios” translated as “saints.” In opposition, from Rev. 4 onward the word ekklesia/church is never used, but only the word hagios/saints is used. Those saints who come out of the great tribulation are not the church, but are those who will have become believers after the church has been removed from the earth prior to that first seal being opened.

                  The world has yet to see the severity and magnitude of what the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to inflict upon this earth. But scripture states that the inhabitants of the earth will know that it is God who is responsible for them, as is demonstrated below:

                  ====================================

                  “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.”

                  “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.”

                  “Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

                  ====================================

                  It is important to understand the reason why believers will not and cannot go through the wrath of the God. The most important would be because, scripture states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that because He already took God’s wrath upon himself on behalf of all believers. Therefore, for God to send his church through his wrath would be disrespecting Jesus who already bore God’s wrath for us. And since the entire earth is going to be affected by these plagues of wrath, the church must be removed.

                  Furthermore, scripture states that this coming wrath is going to be directed to the following types of people:

                  ===================================
                  “The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.”

                  “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.”

                  ==================================

                  Regarding the above, true believers in Christ have already repented of their sins and there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The true believer is always in a state of repentance and is wrestling with the sinful nature to keep his/her body under control. On the other hand, unbelievers are running head-long into destruction, for they embrace the sinful nature. The Lord is going to remove his church, his bride, from the earth and then he is going to pour out his wrath upon those listed above.

                  I truly hope that his gives some understanding. The world has yet to see the affects of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The very fact that there is a controversy as to whether or not they have begun is proof in itself that the 1st seal has not yet been opened. And that because, just as the Lord’s return to the earth will be unmistakable, so also will it be unmistakable when God’s wrath begins.

                  • seals 1-6 is tribulation acc to matt 24

                    trumpets and vials are wrath, acc to rev 6

                  • But what are we saying is the wrath of God? His wrath is announced at the 7th seal. Prior to that, wrath isn’t mentioned. It seams like there’s a tribulation period (wars & famine which we see even now). Then the saints are raptured (washed their robes, wipe every tear…mirrors what Christ said of believers). Then the wrath begins. What if the referenced tribulation is not the whole Book of Revelation but only the first 6 seals, followed by the wrath?

                    • Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
                      Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
                      The wrath begins at the Seventh Seal and is tied to the earthquake of Revelation 8:5 and the Trumpet Judgements, and Bowl judgments but Christians who believe in pre-trib such as dmcal52 believe the seals are also the wrath of God.
                      There is no mention of the word wrath in Chapters 1-6 until you get to the 7tth seal.

                    • jardalkal
                      I used to believe in a mid tribulation myself until I started studying Revelation. Now I see it as post tribulation with the tribulation being only the first 6 seals then, as you said, the wrath beginning with the 7th and the earthquake. I wonder if the big quake is going to coincide with the rapture, with the saints leaving at the moment the quake hits.

            • I’d like to know which verses bring you to that conclusion of a time line because I’m not seeing how you arrived at this.

        • Dmcal, there are 4.5 bullion people on planet earth right now.

          • “Dmcal, there are 4.5 billion people on planet earth right now.”

            Actually, there are over 7 billion people on planet earth right now. I posted those numbers from the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet to demonstrate the number of fatalities as a result of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The 4.5 billion fatalities doesn’t even include trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the bowls. These plagues of wrath will be in fulfillment of the following:

            “I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth, declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth, declares the LORD.” – Zeph.1:1-3

            “I will make mankind scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir” – Isaiah 13:12

            • dmcal.
              I also believe the seals will also be a part of the other judgments.
              2020 food prices up to as much as 345% since 1975 (just a guess). I did not check the year that the index began to increase.

              2) The seals is man’s doing but the Trumpet Judgments, Bowl Judgments and Armageddon is God’s doing.

              I am glad you believe in pre-trib rapture lies and I will not go into that argument.

              According to Isaiah, the Day of the Lord is a one year event and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. So lets begin with all the verses that refers to one day.
              Deut 24:5; John 6:40, 44, 54; Rev 2:10; I Cor 15:52; I Thess 4:16-18; Lev. 23:27-34; Lev 16; Ezek 4:6; Num 14:34.
              Show me in Scripture where your 7 years is mentioned as 7 days of Tribulation and show me in scripture where 7 days = 7 years.

              • Isaiah explains that the Day of the Lord will last for one year (Isaiah 34:8; Isaiah 61:2; Isaiah 63:4). The principle of a day for a year in prophecy also applies to the Day of the Lord (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6). It is the year of the “Lord’s vengeance” or God’s wrath (Revelation 6:17).

                • The day of the Lord, is also referred to as “the hour of trial.” The day of the Lord is neither an hour, a day nor a year in length. It will run parallel throughout the entire seven years. The 5th trumpet alone lasts for 5 months. The time of Jacob’s trouble is specifically from the middle of that seven years when the abomination is set up. This is what will cause the desolation of Jerusalem/Judea where the woman/Israel will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years out in the desert. During that same seven years, God will be dealing with the rest of the world as depicted in Dan.2:31-45, which the Rock (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue smashing the entire statue into pieces, like chaff on the threshing floor and blown away by the wind, never to be found again (the end of human government).

                  It is not a coincidence that God’s wrath is seven years in length, for seven is God’s number of completion. one year is not.

                • Good points!

                  Bottom line: Those that teach “7 years of Triblation and 3. 5 years of ‘Great Tribulatiion’ point to Daniel 9, twisting every verse and phrase. They do the same to Chaper 8 and 12 and wherever.

                  Chapter 9 is about the Messiah.

                  The Messiah of Israel wasn’t known to Daniel when Daniel prayed for his people. Daniel was given insight to the coming Messiah and future of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount.

                  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%209&version=HCSB;KJV;NASB

                  What? The angel is telling Daniel about an Anti-Messiah before the Messiah comes? How ridicules!

                  Yeshua ends the daily sacrifice (Hebrews 7:25-28), confirmed peace with many (John 14:26-28) and His ministry was cut short, lasting 3.5 years as we read between John chapter 2 through chapter 20.

                  Do they not realize that His ministry is to be 7 years? It was cut short. He has 3.5 years remaining and the last day is a Sabbath rest.

                  Yeshua the Messiah read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping in mid sentence.

                  Humm? The Messiah must have cut off His reading of that last portion of Isaiah 61:2-3 for a reason. Pun intended.

                  Do they not know that He must reign until He puts His enemies under His feet?

                  https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=HCSB%3BKJV%3BNASB&quicksearch=Enemies&begin=53&end=53

                  They (Isalm) set up the abomination upon the Holy Mountain, which brought desolation to Jerusalem for the exact number of years told to Daniel. It truely was sealed up until this generation. The Fig Tree Generation (Matthew 24).

                  Don’t they know that the Jews traded the Temple Mount, which they held after the 6 Day War for lasting peace with their Islamic enemies?

              • Hello jardalkat,

                You said:

                ” The seals is man’s doing but the Trumpet Judgments, Bowl Judgments and Armageddon is God’s doing. ”

                I would have to disagree with you, as would scripture. The seals, as well as the trumpets and bowls are all apart of God’s wrath. It is important to understand that it is Jesus who is breaking the seals and therefore, He is the One who is responsible for initiating these events. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments should not be sliced up with one part being man’s or Satan’s wrath and the other parts being God’s wrath. This is a false teaching that has crept into the word of God, via web-sites, seminars, books, you tube, etc.. The results of the seals, trumpets and bowls are all God’s doing, not man’s or Satan’s. While it is true that the antirchist will be initiating that last seven years, it is because it is all apart of God’s fulfillment of that last seven years of seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. – Dan.9:24-27

                You said:
                “I am glad you believe in pre-trib rapture lies and I will not go into that argument.”

                Paul, in writing to Titus and the Thessalonians regarding the Lord’s appearing to gather his church, said the following:

                “while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, ”

                “After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

                Regarding the above, if the church were to go through God’s wrath, it there would be no blessed hope and there would be no reason to comfort other believers if we were to be put through God’s wrath. What comfort would there be in that? What do you think is more comforting, to say that the Lord is going gather believers before his wrath or after? It is not more of a lie for Satan to say that the Lord is not going to gather his church before he pours out his wrath?

                For the sake of the argument, if the church were left here on earth to through God’s wrath, I along with other believers would recognize the antichrist as soon as he established his seven year covenant with Israel. At that point, I as well as the rest of true believers would simply begin to pray and ask God to help us through that time period. But I am confident from scripture that the Lord is not going to build his church and then put it through his wrath. Those who do believe this are not trusting in the Lord’s promise to keep us OUT OF that hour of testing that will come upon the entire world. Those who believe that God would put his church through his wrath are also not trusting that Christ already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve.

                Blessings in Christ

                • 1947 was when the proclamation went out for Israel to become a nation plus 62 shavuots=2009 +7 years =5777 or 2016-2017 Year of Jubilee.
                  1967+50 years =2017/5777; Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 5777; Abraham’s birth 1947 BCE +2017 years = 70 CE (Matt 24:1-2) +1947 years = 5777. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 10th Jubilee = 5777. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 50, 80, 100, and 120 years lines up to significant events with Israel. There are over 20 events pointing to the year of 5777 being the year of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
                  If 2017 is the end year, then the Day of the Lord can begin this week.
                  You teach that there is 7 more years to go in some future timeframe but the peak of the triangle is in the year of 5777. After the year of 5777, you have the law of diminishing returns hit.
                  By the year 2024, 2/3rds of humanity on planet earth will be gone and they may possibly be gone within the next 6 months.
                  Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com and Jardalkalataol.blogspot.com.

                  If the covenants are stacked vertically then the seals, trumpet judgments and bowl judgments can also be stacked vertically. Also Abib and Tishrei are also stacked vertically.

        • Hi dmcal52,

          I hope that you won’t be offended if I express an alternative point of view.

          Above you say,
          “The announcement “The great day of their wrath has come and who can endure it” includes the seals that will have taken place prior to this announcement. What I find that throws people off on their understanding of this, is that they think that the wrath only includes what follows the announcement, which is false thinking. The announcement could be better understood as “The great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.””

          The first thing that I’d like to address is your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”.
          “Who’s” wrath is this?
          Isn’t it God The Fathers wrath?

          Therefore in context, Revelation 6:17. begins with “The great day of HIS wrath”.

          Secondly, in respects to the “has come” above, which you clearly suggest that its meaning is meant to imply “past tense” or that what has occurred previously, (what was written regarding the Seals), is a continuation and also a portion of, “Gods wrath”.

          Let’s look at that translation briefly.
          Within the “Textus Receptus” the “has/is come” was derived from the Greek primary verb “ἔρχομαι” or “erchomai”, which is defined as, “to come, to come into being, come forth, show itself, be established.”

          The “has/is come” above within the original Greek Morphological Text is derived from the Greek primary verb “ἦλθεν” or “ēlthen”, which its definition, “to come” would also suggest “commencement”, rather than “continuation”.

          Therefore, don’t the Seals consist of something other than “God the Fathers wrath” and “righteous judgment”?
          Aren’t they what is stated previously by Jesus as to what is going to occur next?
          i.e., Revelation 3:10. the “trial” (peirasmos) to “test” (peirazō) the whole world.?

          Anti-Christ will be present.
          For just two examples of many,
          God The Father allowed for Satan to “try and test” Job.
          God The Father allowed for Satan to “try and test” Jesus.
          Neither instance consisted of God The Fathers wrath.
          God The Father will allow for Satan to “try and test” the whole world.

          Revelation 3:10.;
          “I also will keep thee from the hour of TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to TRY them that dwell upon the earth.”

          “TEMPTATION” from the Greek masculine noun “πειρασμοῦ”, transliterated as “peirasmos”, defined primarily as “an experiment, attempt, trial, proving” and in context specifically “adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness.”

          “TRY” from the Greek verb “πειράσαι”, transliterated as “peirazō”, defined in context as “to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quality, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself” and “of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith.”

          Revelation 3:19.;
          “As many as I love I REBUKE and CHASTEN: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

          “REBUKE” from the Greek verb “ἐλέγχω” transliterated as “elegchō”, defined in context, “to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted, to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove, to chasten, to punish”.

          “CHASTEN” from the Greek verb “παιδεύω” transliterated as “paideuō”, defined in context as “to train children, discipline, chastise, of a father punishing his son.”

          Isn’t the above “TEMPTATION, TRY, REBUKE and CHASTEN” all describing the same thing, and aren’t they clearly distinct and separate from “Gods wrath”?

          Gods wrath is “righteous judgement” and when it “commences” wouldn’t it be too late to repent, as Jesus tells those of the church of Laodicea to do?

          Any way’s no offence, but in my opinion, (and from what I have provided above), I don’t believe that you have sufficient evidence which would verify that the Seals are one and the same as, “Gods Wrath”.

          • Hi dmcal52,

            In addition to the above,

            1) We have “JESUS” saying in Revelation 3:10., that He will keep those of the church of Philadelphia from the “hour” of “Temptation”.

            The English “hour” from the Greek feminine noun “ὥρας”, or “hṓra”, which by its definitions, could have simply been rendered as “time”.
            Thus, “JESUS” will keep this church from the “time of TRIAL AND TESTING”.

            2) In Revelation 3:14-19., we have “JESUS” chastising the church of Laodicea, and saying that, because they are neither hot or cold, HE is going to spit them out, and that they will be subjected to the “time of TRIAL and TESTING”.
            In Revelation 3:19., JESUS says that HE will REBUKE and CHASTEN them, which during what comes next, they will then have the opportunity to repent.

            (I have provided the Greek and the definitions of TRIAL, TESTING, REBUKE and TESTING previously for your convenience.)

            3) Germaine to the above, in Revelation 5:5-7., we have JESUS, (the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, the slain Lamb), being worthy to take the scroll with the SEALS from God the Fathers right hand.

            4) In Revelation 6:1., we see that JESUS (the Lamb) opens the first SEAL.
            In 6:3., 6:5., 6:7., 6:9., we have JESUS opening the second, third, forth and fifth SEALS respectively.

            5) In Revelation 6:12., when JESUS opens the sixth SEAL, something very significant happens, “the sun becomes black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon becomes as blood.”

            What does Joel 2:31. say?
            “The sun SHALL BE TURNED into darkness, and the moon into blood, “BEFORE” the great and the terrible day of the LORD COME.”

            The English “BEFORE” being derived from the Hebrew masculine noun “פָּנִים” or “paniym”, which being defined in context, is “BEFORE”.

            Just to substantiate the above, we have the Greek.
            Acts 2:20.
            “The sun SHALL BE TURNED into darkness, and the moon into blood, “BEFORE” that great and notable day of the Lord COME:”

            Again, the English “BEFORE”, is derived from the Greek adverb “πρὶν” or “prin”, which is also defined as “BEFORE”.

            Then in Revelation 6:16. we have written, “the wrath of the Lamb”, which is the CHASTENING by JESUS, that He said He would perform previously.

            Then in Revelation 8:1., we have JESUS opening the seventh and last SEAL.
            SEVEN denotes completion of a set.
            Seven CHURCHES, CANDLE STICKS, STARS, ANGELS, SPIRITS OF GOD, LAMPS, HORNS, EYES, SEALS, TRUMPETS, THUNDERS, BOWLS, etc. etc.

            And it is then with the TRUMPETS, that God the Fathers WRATH commences, and continues, since the sun has now been turned into darkness, and the moon has now been turned into blood.

            Logically, “IF” the “sun is to be turned to darkness, (becomes black as sackcloth of hair), and the moon like blood” BEFORE the “Day Of The Lord” COMES, then everything that happens previously, prior to to this event occurring, is NOT equitable to the “Day Of The Lord”.

            Therefore as per what is recorded within scripture, the SEALS one through seven are NOT the “Day Of The Lord” or Gods wrath and righteous judgment.

          • Hello GM,

            You said:
            “Secondly, in respects to the “has come” above, which you clearly suggest that its meaning is meant to imply “past tense” or that what has occurred previously, (what was written regarding the Seals), is a continuation and also a portion of, “Gods wrath”.

            Let’s look at that translation briefly.
            Within the “Textus Receptus” the “has/is come” was derived from the Greek primary verb “ἔρχομαι” or “erchomai”, which is defined as, “to come, to come into being, come forth, show itself, be established.”

            Regarding erchomai “has come” it is in the Aorist tense, which means:

            “a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, “past action,” without further limitation or implication.

            In other words, “the great day of their wrath has come” includes the events that had previously taken place. The announcement includes what will have already taken place, as well as everything that follows the announcement.

            But regardless of words, I am looking at the whole context. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are three sets of plagues of wrath, which God is going to use to fulfill the prophesies of the OT saints and the apostles. They are not meant to be sliced up so that seals 1 thru 5 are to be considered as Satan’s or man’s wrath, with the trumpets and bowls being God’s wrath.

            The fact is that, the Lamb/Jesus is the one who is opening the seals and He is the One who treads the wine press of the wrath of God Almighty. That said, the result of the 4th trumpet being a fourth of the earths population being killed and based on a population of 7 billion, would equal 1.7 billion fatalities in the early part of that last seven years. The Lord is the One opening the seals and is therefore the One who is responsible for the resulting deaths.

            • Hi dmcal52,

              First, Thank You for taking the time to respond.
              Second, I would like to apologize for how poorly I constructed my above comments to you, and for the obvious confusion that they created.

              I realize now how difficult it can be to convey a “line of reasoning” using this particular format, and how I assumed that you would have no difficulty in following that thought process, simply because I knew what I was trying to say. (Definitely my bad.)

              I can clearly see now, that I sabotaged myself and that “line of reasoning”, by “how” I initially addressed your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”, and it would have made it extremely difficult for you to follow. Again I apologize.

              Though the above definitions for the words “TEMPTATION (or TESTING), TRIAL, REBUKE and CHASTEN”, and much of my 2nd. comment would still be applicable, if I could delete both of my previous posts, and start again, I would.
              But unfortunately that’s not possible.

              So I ask that you please be gracious enough, to allow me the opportunity to try again, and start all over.

              Let me first start by stating that “I fully AGREE with you” that in this instance, (Revelation 6:17.), the transliterated Greek verb “erchomai”, is in the “Aorist Tense”, a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, “past action,” without further limitation or implication.

              I agree that “erchomai” here is rendered in the “Second Aorist Tense, Active Voice, Indicative Mood”.
              This would be indicated by the (εν) of the Greek Morphological text of “ἦλθεν”.

              Now above I had stated, “that I sabotaged myself and that “line of reasoning”, by “how” I initially addressed your interpretation of the Greek pronoun “αὐτῶν” or “autos”.
              I clearly made the mistake by jumping ahead to “God’s Wrath”, before making the necessary distinction between “IT” and the “Wrath of Jesus”.

              What does Revelation 6:16. say?
              “And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the “WRATH of the LAMB”: (JESUS)”
              6:17.;
              “For the great day of HIS (JESUS) WRATH is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

              What is “WRATH”?
              In both instances above the English was derived from the Greek feminine noun “ὀργῆς” or “orgē”, which is primarily defined as, “anger, the natural disposition, temper, character”.

              Man can experience this “WRATH”, from the K.J.V. see Mark 3:5. and “anger”, Romans 12:19., and “wrath”, Ephesians 4:31. and “anger” etc., etc..

              “Wrath” is also “revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men” and God the Fathers “Righteous Judgment” upon the “children of disobedience”, from the K.J.V. see Romans 1:18., Romans 2:5., Ephesians 5:6. etc., etc..

              And within Revelation 3:14-19. where Jesus is chastising the CHURCH of Laodicea, (individuals that He says that He still loves, though He utilizes “phileō”, rather than “agapaō, agapē or agapētos” here), HE (JESUS) was definitely expressing “disappointment and anger”.

              So, in my opinion, I still see some problems with your understanding that the SEALS are in actuality “God the Fathers WRATH of Righteous Judgment”.

              I hope that I convey what I am trying to express, clearer than my previous attempt for you.

              Now the “TRY” or TRIAL, (πειράσαι, (αι) or peirazō) that is expressed within Revelation 3:10., is also rendered in the “Aorist Tense, Active Voice, (meaning that JESUS is the doer) and in the Infinitive Mood”, but we also know that “hōra”, (being translated as “hour”) is expressing a specific time frame, which will consist of a “beginning and end”, and that the Book of Revelation is “Prophecy”, (Rev. 1:3., 22:7.,10., 18,19.).

              So with that, I would hope that you’d agree, that this specific time frame that is expressed above, (though being recorded in the “Aorist Tense”), has not yet come to fruition.
              Speaking for myself, I am more than aware that I am tested on a daily basis, and have not been “kept” from anything that resembles what the individuals from the Church of Philadelphia will experience.

              In Revelation 3:19., Jesus says; “As many as I love, “I REBUKE and CHASTEN”: be zealous therefore, and repent.”

              Though both REBUKE and CHASTEN are rendered in the Present Tense, Active Voice and Indicative Mood, again, one must also remember that this is “Prophecy”, and like that “time frame” allocated for the “TEMPTATION and TRIAL” above in Revelation 3:10., this has also not yet come to fruition.

              Now here’s were all of this becomes quite tricky, and whether you agree or not, I hope I can at least articulate my point of view.
              It will all be much easier if you happen to hold to the belief that Revelation 4:1. is signifying what is commonly referred to as being the “Rapture”.

              Currently, all of us that have faith and belief in Jesus are subjected to “temptation” regarding that faith.
              But as stated above, a “allocated time” will come into being, where some individuals of the Church, (Philadelphia) will be “kept from” a “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, and others (Laodicea) will not be.

              Now if Jesus says that He will REBUKE and CHASTEN the members of the Church of Laodicea, was that just an idle threat, or does He mean what He says?
              And if you believe that He indeed means what He says, and will no doubt REBUKE and CHASTEN the Church of Laodicea, then where is that recorded?

              If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, and the individuals of the Church of Philadelphia are to be “kept or spared” from this “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, then wouldn’t the individuals that partake in this rapture, be those of the Church of Philadelphia?
              Wouldn’t this then also fulfill the scripture of Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9.?

              What I am suggesting above is the “duality of meaning” which has been utilized throughout both the Old and New Testaments.
              Those of the Church of Philadelphia that have been presented with an “open door” because they have “kept the word of HIS patience”, will also be, (having proven themselves) “kept” from the Wrath (REBUKE and CHASTENING) of Jesus, (or the SEALS).

              Now, if that is the case, then we would have another “duality of meaning regarding wrath” that would also be fulfilled.

              If by what is recorded within Revelation 7:9-13. consists of a second rapture event, encompassing those that were subjected to the “ Temptation, Trial, Rebuking and Chastising” of the remaining members of the Church of Laodicea, and also those individuals of the world that experienced that event, and came to have faith and belief in Jesus, then Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9. would also be fulfilled in respects to “God the Fathers Wrath”.

              Each and every true Believer in Jesus would now be off of the earth, allowing for a Righteous God to justly execute His judgment, which begins with the “Trumpets”.

              Also, this proposal doesn’t contradict Joel 2:31., or Acts 2:20., where your proposal of the SEALS being a portion of “God the Fathers Wrath” does.
              And it is my opinion, that if a contradiction to scripture presents itself, then the “thought or proposal” is inaccurate.

              Thank you for your patience, and I hope that I’ve articulated what I was trying to express previously with more clarity.
              God Bless.

              • Good day Gm,

                You said:
                “Currently, all of us that have faith and belief in Jesus are subjected to “temptation” regarding that faith. But as stated above, a “allocated time” will come into being, where some individuals of the Church, (Philadelphia) will be “kept from” a “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, and others (Laodicea) will not be.”

                Forgive me, if I am understanding you correctly, I believe that you mistaken in your understanding regarding the letters to the churches. Though these were letters to each specific church, the information contained within them is for every believer and all churches throughout the entire church period. For at the end of each of the letters it says, “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

                For example, the promise of Jesus giving the overcomer a white stone with a new name written on it found in the letter to the church of Pergamum, is also a promise to the other six types of churches and every overcoming believer throughout the entire church period. All of the promises to the overcomer can be applied to every believer throughout the entire church period. That said, the promise to those who endure patiently to keep them out of the hour of trial, is not only to the overcomers of the church of Philadelphia, but to all believers throughout the entire church period who endure patiently.

                Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial. Any believer who belonged to the actual church of Laodicea, as well as believers throughout the entire church period that fit that church type and who overcome, will also be kept from that hour of trial. Those letters to the seven churches are also to all churches and individual believers throughout the entire church period.

                Likewise, whatever the promise is for the overcomer, it is the opposite for those who do not overcome. Example: He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death vs. He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. The bottom line is that, any believer who is an overcomer, regardless of church type, will receive the promises given to each church.

                I’m going to address each of the issues in your post in a separate post and that for the sake of ease of reading.

                (Continued)

              • (Continued #2)

                GM said:
                “If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, and the individuals of the Church of Philadelphia are to be “kept or spared” from this “Temptation and Trial” period that will come upon the whole world, then wouldn’t the individuals that partake in this rapture, be those of the Church of Philadelphia? Wouldn’t this then also fulfill the scripture of Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9.?

                Again, you are pigeonholing the promises and restricting them to a type of church. As I stated in part #1, all of the promises given to the overcomer, regardless of the church, will receive the promises given by the Lord. For example: Any believer throughout the entire church period who was previously guilty of forsaking their first love, if they repented and overcame that, then they will receive the promises given to the other churches as well.

                Every believer who overcomes, will be gathered when the Lord comes for the church. Those who do not overcome would be likened to the five virgins who had no extra oil, which is symbolic for watchful readiness. If your not overcoming, then you would be continuing to live according to the sinful nature.

                Any believer who has gone back into willfully living according to the sinful nature would not be in a right standing with the Lord and will not be gathered when the Lord appears. Everyone not gathered (raputred) when the Lord appears, will be caught in the period of God’s wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The Thessalonians understood Paul’s teaching on this in that, there were those who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, which is what prompted them to write Paul about it. Since some were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and they knew that the living believers would immediately be changed and caught up with the resurrected, their concern was that if it was true that the resurrection had already taken place, then why were they still here. Their concern was also that after the gathering of the church, that the wrath of God was to follow. And of course Paul eases their fears, letting them know that the resurrection had not yet taken place.

                Rom.5:9, 1 Thes.1:10 & 5:9 applies only to those who are true believers and are watching and anticipating the Lord’s appearing. Everyone else who is living according to the sinful nature, whether believer or unbeliever, will be caught in that time of wrath, known as the day of the Lord and the hour of trial.

                (Continued)

              • (Continued – part #3)

                GM said:
                “If by what is recorded within Revelation 7:9-13. consists of a second rapture event, encompassing those that were subjected to the “ Temptation, Trial, Rebuking and Chastising” of the remaining members of the Church of Laodicea, and also those individuals of the world that experienced that event, and came to have faith and belief in Jesus, then Romans 5:9. and 1 Thessalonians 1:10. & 5:9. would also be fulfilled in respects to “God the Fathers Wrath”.

                Revelation 7:9-13 is a vision of the great tribulation saints who will have come out of the great tribulation, which Jesus identified as that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period, which begins at the setting up of the abomination – Matt.24:15-21. That said, this could not be representing a “second rapture event” because the chronological order of Revelation, the great tribulation will have not yet begun. John is simply seeing a vision of those who will have died keeping their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark – Rev.7:9-17, 20:6-8.

                The great tribulation saints are not represented by the church of Laodicea, but every person caught in that time period of God’s wrath who keeps their testimony of Christ and the word of God and is willing to give their lives maintaining that testimony.

              • (Continued – #4)

                GM said:
                “Each and every true Believer in Jesus would now be off of the earth, allowing for a Righteous God to justly execute His judgment, which begins with the “Trumpets”.

                As I have made clear, I believe that the three sets of seven judgments are all representing God’s wrath. And that the announcement of wrath includes what previously will have take place, which would be the previous seals. I believe that since the Lamb is the One opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments, that they should not be divided up, but are all representing God’s wrath. As I posted previously, just with the 4th seal along there will be 1.7 billion fatalities and Jesus is the One who will have opened the seals. It’s not a matter of the meaning of words here, but the format.

                I believe that the church will be gathered before that 1st seal has been opened.

                • Hi dmcal52,
                  Wow, with each post that is made, the space allocated for that post becomes so much narrower, so I’ll respond at the very bottom of the page.

  7. Re what happens with the fourth seal in terms of historic fact (needs checking out of course) the conquistadors who overran particularly South America are said to have killed at least a quarter of the population of the world by sword and by smallpox which they alledgedly carried there with them.
    v8 “And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.”

    • Hello stephendgeen,

      The truth is that, the 1st seal has not yet been opened and therefore, neither have any of the other seals, trumpets or bowl judgments which follow. These three sets of seven judgments is how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the inhabitants on the earth. These are events which will happen in the very last days leading up to Christ’s return to end the age, which will be shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out. As I told Marianne, these events are meant to decimate the population of the earth in a short period time, not over a period of 2000 years. When these plagues of wrath begin to take place they will continue to increase in frequency and in severity within that last seven years.

      The world has no idea of the destruction that is coming and unfortunately, neither do many Christian’s. This coming wrath will be unprecedented and are not events that can be assigned to past historical events. They will be devastation on a scale that the world has not yet seen.

  8. I agree that things will get worse. The different seals, Trumpets and bowls are each themselves worse than those before. But there are some finite events.

    For instance in Revelation 9:
    1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

    The key words are the specific time limit “5 months”, and “during those days” suggests an end to that plague as well.

    Each occurrence is designed to cause men to repent, and each are worse than the last, as with those of Egypt for each refusal to let the Israelites go. These events somewhat mirror those of Egypt but on a much larger scale.

    God gives every available chance, culminating in Chapter 16 where men still will not repent, just before it is announced that it is finished.

  9. Both the Man of Lawlessness and the 666 spreading Beasts are going to be defeated by Christ so they must be going to still be around when He comes. That eliminates historic people. But types of these people have abounded. The types of the Beasts are seen in Empires like Rome and Byzantium. The 666 is seen in Nazis and the Holocaust and earlier in the history of Europe around the Middle Ages. The Man of Lawnessness type is seen in leaders of huge rebellions. The type of the ten heads of the first Beast ruling beside the Beast are seen in monarchies of Europe ruling beside the Emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. The type of 666 punishment is seen in use of mass surveillance to minitor potential enemies by what they do or do not do, their profiles, and transponders and numbering systems applied to humans and technology for tracking and killing. The Enoch 89 prophecy types are seen in drones and air bombardments. It must be it will all come to a head as the Time draws near.

    • Hello again stephendgreen,

      The 666 (mark of the beast) is still future. Scripture states that “unless anyone had the mark they would not be able to buy or sell.” To put it into perspective for our time, buying and selling is crediting and debiting. The system for electronic crediting and debiting has been set up for many years now. Currently, people are crediting and debiting via the swiping of bank cards and bank apps on cells phones, etc. That mark that will go in either the hand or the forehead, will eventually replace card swiping and bank apps, as well as cash and checks being made obsolete, leaving only that mark as a way of electronically crediting and debiting ones bank account.

      Everything is now in place, all that has to take place is for the revealing of that antichrrst and the initiation of that mark, which will take place in the middle of the seven years. Regarding the mark, they have already developed this technology and is already in use. Currently, people in Sweden and other places are being implanted with RFID chips, which will continue to evolve leading up to the emergence of that antichrist.

      If you click on the BBC link below, you can see the technology for that coming mark which has already come about, which demonstrates that it will be a literal mark.

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

  10. I see quite a few replies on the seals, trumpets and bowls and on the wrath and rapture. I’m not scholar by any means, yet I’ve been studying Revelation for some time, and through all Scripture referencing this period, I see the rapture happening in conjunction with the opening of the sixth seal and a breakdown of two periods.

    In Revelation 6 we see the great earthquake. In verses 17 It states: For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Directly after this in Chapter 7 there is the great multitude that came out of the tribulation. I see the tribulation as seals 1-5, the rapture as seal 6 And the beginning of the trumpets as the wrath.

    If there is more that I’m not seeing here, does someone have any Scripture references that show more?

  11. Good analysis about the likely mechanism of 666. I agree. RFID is based on transponder technology. I met the inventors. Transponders were to distinguish friendly aircraft in WW2 so that if an aircraft did not have a transponder it was taken to be an enemy plane which showed up as enemy on a radar display. If you don’t have the mark they will assume us to be enemies. They will shoot us down in some way because we will show up on surveillance without the ‘mark’. Look at other numbering systems too, computerised ones. I saw recently the pre-computer system developed by IBM was sold to Nazi Germany and used for their number tatooing system in the Holocaust. Punch cards were used then. All computers internally still use the modern equivalents of those punch cards. Look to at the link between numbering comodities and the Roman Empire. They started what today we call the ISIN system. They were the first manifestation of The Beast. It is still the power behind Europe via the Prince Electors. They will resume power to empower this new 666 system but Revelation links it most to the Second Beast and the image of the First Beast. Either way both beasts (Empires or Monarchy systems) will be defeated by Christ at His coming but NOT before many believers are killed by the system. They will be among those who are resurrected and reign with Christ Jesus 1000 years. The end of 1000 years will be the terrible war but it won’t last long as God will come Himself and evaporate the oceans and burn up the atmosphere and wipe out the living who are not resurrected then bring them back for judgment. Amen Come Lord Jesus.

  12. Hello Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “1947 was when the proclamation went out for Israel to become a nation plus 62 shavuots=2009 +7 years =5777 or 2016-2017 Year of Jubilee.
    1967+50 years =2017/5777; Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 5777; Abraham’s birth 1947 BCE +2017 years = 70 CE (Matt 24:1-2) +1947 years = 5777. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 10th Jubilee = 5777. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 50, 80, 100, and 120 years lines up to significant events with Israel. There are over 20 events pointing to the year of 5777 being the year of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”

    There is no way to mathematically figure out when the Lord is going to return to the earth. The only way anyone can know who is here during that time is by following along with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because scripture makes clear that Jesus does not return until after the 7th bowl is poured out. Also, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not staggered or stacked, but will take place in chronological order, just as they appear in scripture:

    Seals 1 thru 7 followed by

    Trumpets 1 thru 7, followed by

    Bowls 1 thru 7, followed by the Lord’s return to end the age.

    To be clear, the gathering of the church is a separate event from the event of the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. The gathering of the church can take place at any time prior to the 1st seal being opened and in fact is what initiates the day of the Lord. Where the second coming, is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom, which takes place shortly after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

    What are you going to do or say when the second coming doesn’t take place in 2017? You know how many people have attempted to pinpoint the time of the Lord’s return and have failed? The next event to take place is the gathering of the church, which will be followed by that ruler, the antichrist when he establishes his seven year covenant with Israel. Once that takes place, then the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom some time shortly after the 7th bowl judgment.

    • Dear Scoffer,
      Sabbath Years to 4001 BC 3932/3939/3946/3953/3960/3967/3974/3981/3988/3994/4001
      0 3925 Creation Note: Torahcalendar uses 3986, others use 3983 (3983-6000=2017), 3999, 3980, 3954, 4001*, 4004, 4100, 4126, 3926, 5315, 3760 (Sedar Olam) and about one dozen others. Sept 22, 4000 BC (Monday). 26.8 % of Scripture is prophecy; 1817 prophecies; 8353 verses.

      And man shall live 120 years (Gen 6:3). Years mean Jubilees. According to 4001 BCE, the earth is 6030 years old.
      3983 BCE-6000 years = 2017/5777.

      Note: We now have two Jubilee counts going. In the end these two are 3 years apart (2017, 2020).

      2478 1428, 1258 1414,1572 BCE Abib אביב‎ 10 Jubilee count begins for walkinthelight.ca/timeline.htm Joshua (‘Yahovah saves’ ) leads Israel into “the promised land” Joshua 3:17 “And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of יהוה stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan,” Joshua 4:1
      “children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho. And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.” Joshua 5:10,12.
      This is the 70th Jubilee prophecy above.

  13. The opening of these 7 Seals is a process. They open in order, revealing a particular message within.

    Back to Rev. 1:1, “This is the revelation which God gave to Yeshua the Messiah, so that He could show His servants what must happen very soon. He communicated it by sending His angel to his servant John.”

    His servants know.

    Who are His servants?

    See John 2:1-10, because they know what He’s doing.

    Did you know Yeshua told His servants the length of time the seals would open?

    The answe is within the revelation given.

    He did tell His servants just as we read in Rev. 1:1.

    It’s not 7 years.

    The rider of the white horse came out in 2007, announcing his run for the White House. He continues riding his white horse unitl the appointed time

    Blessings

    • DJ,

      You said:
      “The rider of the white horse came out in 2007, announcing his run for the White House. He continues riding his white horse unitl the appointed time”

      The above is false! Your claim is just misapllied by you without any scripture to support your claim. The rider on the white horse at the opening of the 1st seal represents the antichrist and he has yet to be revealed. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant with Israel and most likely Islam, which will allow Israel to build her temple and once again to begin presenting sacrifices and offerings.

      Once the church has been completed, the Lord will gather believers, taking them back to the Father’s house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3 and 1 Thes.4:13-18 and God will pick up where he left off, fulfilling that last seven years of the seventy sevens that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem.

      • book of daniel says there is a covenant, but it just says “with many,” and does not mention Israel….Israel may be the topic, but it does not say Israel is in agreement with the covenant

      • Dmcal52
        Antichrist forerunners are: 1) Obama (King of the South–For Islam and Islamic); 2) Putin (King of the North–Against Islam); 3) Prince William–Most say no way. 4) Erdogan– Islamic
        Why Obama?
        1) 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles–Norweigian Peace Medallion (Covenant of Many–Daniel 9:25-27) 1947–Proclamation of Israel +62 Shavuots = 2009. The math fits. Peace with many is important here. Also this was an “offering” to Obama. (Event #1)
        2) 1260 days later March 22-25 (Passover; Matthew 24:15) trip to Israel. Event # 2 Daniel’s Timeline.
        A) Entered Jerusalem on the exact date that Jesus entered Jerusalem. March 21, 2013 was the vernal equinox (a ppagan ritual day) and it lined up with Nisan 10 perfectly. (Event #3
        B) Jesus rode in on a beast. Obama rode in on his beast. (Event #4)
        C) Jesus got palm leaves waved to him and Obama got his palm branches waved to him (Palestinian flags and American flags–Why–Islam rules) (Event# 5).
        “The Beast” (Obama’s Limo) arrived at the “Holy Site” on March 22nd (Friday–Creation of Man) causing all prayer and sacrifice to cease and then Obama stood inside of the Holiest Christian site on Earth as the Palestinians protested because they did not want him there. Covenant of Many again seen here.
        D) Passover lambs were cancelled for killing that year. (Event # 6)
        Every year by ordinance from God and His word there is a Passover sacrifice in Israel to remember the Exodus. This tradition was lost in 70 AD when the Jews were dispersed. It was reinstated in 2008. (Video) This year the Passover Sacrifice was OFFICIALLY cancelled, due to Barack Obama´s visit to Israel. The order came from the Israeli Department of Health. That is all that had to happen. For a man, they stopped their passover sacrifices for this year.
        http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166255#.UU7sRzetq95; http://www.israelnationalnews.com/wap/Item.aspx?type=0&item=166560.
        Exodus 12:14 ‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance.
        Daniel 11:31… then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.

        E) Ice sculpture of Obama (Event # 7)
        F) Obama did not bow to Christ at the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem where King David and King Jesus was born. However, Obama did bow to Muhammad upon entering the Church of Nativity. All who enter by the short door into the church of Nativity bow to Mohammad/Muhammad. (Event# 8)

        Judas, the “son of perdition” (John 17:12) betrayed Jesus to the chief priests two days before Passover. Obama, the “son of perdition” (II Thess. 2:3) betrayed Israel four days before Passover.

        Obama declared as Messiah by Newsweek Cover in 2013.
        His administration showed a graphical “image” of the State of Israel that cut Jerusalem and the Temple Mount out of Israel and placed it back under gentile/Palestinian control (i.e. an abomination). The Dome of the Rock is also an abomination or detestable thing on the Temple Mount.

        Names and references. The term “Antichrist” appears only in I Jn 2:18, 22: 4:3; II Jn 7. If one holds that the Scriptures present a growing unity on this doctrine, and that an eschatological person, the final Antichrist to be indwelt by Satan (Rev 13), is yet to be manifest, he must relate a large number of biblical names and references to him. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willfull king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.

        The Antichrist breaks all of his pledges and destroys his contractual obligations with Israel (Daniel 9:27; I Thess 5:3). Obama is pushing for Palestine to control Israel.

        King of fierce countenance (Dan 8:23). Antichrist will be a cruel ruler, trampling men under foot without fear of God. He is also called the willful king (Daniel 11:36).

        King of Babylon (Isa 14:4) America is seen by some to be Babylon the Great. Obama is King of Babylon between 2009 and 2017.

        Characteristics of the Antichrist
        1. Deceiver ; craftiness, treachery, seducer, a cheat, beguile, deceiver with vain words
        2. Utter horrid blasphemies against the Most High.
        3. Practice great enormities upon the saints through persecution.

        First, there is to be a falling away, a defection, of the Christians, prior to the second coming. This was began when prayer was taken out of the school systems. Now the Bible is seen as lies and the Quran is the Truth to the universe.

  14. @DJ: The word servants does not appear in the Koine Greek. Translators added it because people expect translations of Revelation to be proper complete sentences. They have to add words to make it sentences. The Greek says ‘to tell His’ not ‘to tell His servants’. I was shocked to find this and to find so much of Revelation is in idioms rather than sentences. There are so many words added in translations. The Greek is beautiful in its succinct brevity, so much of the meaning is in the way it is written and the choice of words rather than logical grammar. I recommend an Interlinear (but some have mistakes like Mounce online has Greek equivalent of ‘was and was and will be’ instead of ‘was and is and will be’). Be careful not to rely on words that aren’t there but are added to make sentences. His own – not necessarily His servants (literally simply ‘His’).

    • I look at Strong’s Greek translation for δοῦλος. His servants and servant in Rev. 1:1 as defined by the Greek word doulos (G1401).

      doulos (G1401): a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): – bond (-man), servant.

      The Greek word (G1401) is translated in great detail in the link below.

      http://biblehub.com/greek/1401.htm

      The Greek word “servants” in John 2:1-10 has a slightly different meaning. diakonos

      dee-ak’-on-os

      (G1249) “Probably from διάκω diakō (obsolete, to run on errands; compare (G1377); an attendant, that is, (generally) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); [now we read an interpretation by the writer of this word definition] specifically a Christian teacher and pastor (technically a deacon or deaconess): – deacon, minister, servant.”

      I’ll keep to my point – His servants know what He’s doing.

      Blessings.

  15. Chargefox

    Wrath of God views
    1) Trumpet judgments, Bowl Judgments, Armageddon. Rapture on the Day of Atonement or Day of Trumpet one year in advance of Armageddon.
    2) Bowl Judgments, Armageddon Rapture at Passover.
    3) Armageddon Rapture on Day of Trumpet.

    • Chargefox
      Scriptures for Day of Trumpet.
      Leviticus 23:24ff; Zeph 1:15-16–Day of the Lord is a Day of Trumpet and Alarm (Matt 25:1-14); Matt 24:31–Day of Trumpet; I Cor 15:52 __Last Trump (Day of Trumpet); I Thess 4:16-18 (Day of Trumpet); Rev 11:15ff–7th Bowl Judgment (Day of Trumpet); Rev 12:1 (Day of Trumpet- since 1 CE). 12 stars in her head is Leo and this is on Sept. 23rd, 2017.
      Jesus fulfilled the Spring events of Leviticus 23 so the next one is on the Day of Trumpet–Matt 24:31–At the sound of the Trump, Jesus is going to send the four angels to the four corners of the earth to gather His people–The rapture.
      Day of Atonement Lev. 16–Judgment of the Nation (s); Lev 23:27-34; Joel 2:1–Day of the Lord; Joel 2:15-16–Fast; Blowing of the LAST Trumpet; solemn Assembly; Rev 14:20ff–Wheat and Tares; Rev 15–Day of Atonement typology; Rev 16/19–Armageddon.
      Isaiah teaches the Day of the Lord is a one year event and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. According to Joel 2:15, it begins on the Day of Atoement and it ends on the Day of Atonement with Armageddon. According to the Flood, there was a global earthquake (Axial Poleshift) on the Day of Atonement so on that day should be a global earthquake. History repeats itself.
      Leviticus 23 important months are Passover month (Abib/Month 1); Pentecost (Month 3); and Tishrei (7th Biblical Month). What I do is to find or make list of events covering these timeframes. I also have list of events on the 4th day, 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles, and Chanukkah.

      • jardalkal

        Perhaps I can respond at some later point. I’ve gone through some of the Scriptures you’ve given but will take time to study those and the rest of the information you gave.

      • OK Jardalkal, here is my take on this.

        1 Thessalonians 4 calls it the trump of God. Revelation refers to the angel blowing the 7th trumpet.

        The trump of God will be an act of grace. It will call the undeserving Church into heaven. But the trumpet blown by the seventh angel will be an act of wrath.

        The voice of God is not the sound of a trumpet blown by an ange, but a voice that sounds like a trumpet.

        After the 6th trumpet and before the 7th, Revelation 9:20 says The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues (my comments: rest of, all, those still alive, everyone remaining on earth) still did not repent…

        Now aside from my belief or yours…or those who believe the rapture already took place, God’s plan is His. Perhaps the reason for these various questions is specifically so that we will NOT know the hour. If He wanted us to know when, He would’ve said it will be at the 7th seal or 7th trumpet.

        What He does make clear is that we’re not to be worried with it for He is able and willing make us stand, despite whatever comes our way. It is clear that the plagues are sent for unbelievers. So whether we remain or not, we will be spared His wrath.

        • Hello chargfox,

          You said:
          “OK Jardalkal, here is my take on this.

          1 Thessalonians 4 calls it the trump of God. Revelation refers to the angel blowing the 7th trumpet.”

          The problem with your claim above is that, the only things that the trump of God and the 7th trumpet have in common is the word “trumpet.” Making the trumpet call of God and the 7th trumpet as being synonymous is a recent misconception.

          First all, these are trumpet judgments, the wrath of God and are not blessings, which is what the gathering of the church would be.

          And secondly, there is nothing at all in the context of the 7th trumpet or around it that even hints of the gathering of the church.

          And thirdly, if the church was to be gathered at the 7th trumpet, it would mean that the church would have gone through the majority of God’s wrath, i.e. the seals and previous six trumpets.

          To be continued …..

          • DmCal52, As you said the seals are stacked during both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments all the way up to Armageddon.
            According to Isaiah, The Day of the Lord is a one year event covering both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments. This gives us 3 possible harvest dates.
            1) Day of Trumpet at the beginning of the Day of the Lord
            2) Passover at the end of the Trumpet Judgments.
            3) Day of Trumpet for the Grape Harvest. Leviticus 23 supports Day of Trumpet 10 days before Day of Atonement.
            The Trumpet Judgments run for 5 months and the Bowl Judgments run for 7 months.

            DmCal 52 Why is it that the 7th Trumpet Judgment is in Rev. 11 and not in Revelation 9.
            Revelation 11:15-17

            When the seventh angel sounds his shofar, then The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah, and Adonai has begun to rule. The active reign of God on earth, the Messianic Kingdom, promised at 1:5-8 and 6:10, now begins to become real. Between these verses and chapter 19 are the various judgments and other events associated with the overthrow of the system of this world and the inauguration of the Messiah’s rulership. This is why essentially the same cry is heard again at 19:6: “Halleluyah! Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, has begun his reign!”
            This tells me that the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments may be stacked as well. This also reminds me of the Feast of Tabernacles which is the Messianic Kingdom.

            This Rev 11–7th Trumpet Judgment is on the Day of Trumpet 10 days prior to Armageddon on the Day of Atonement.

            Revelation 11:18

            This is a midrash on the whole of Psalm 2, contrasting God’s righteous judgment and rage with that of the Goyim, the pagan nations opposed to God and his ways.

            Leviticus 23:24ff Day of Trumpet; Zeph 1:15-16–Day of the Lord is a day of Trumpet and Alarm (shouting; Matt 25:1-14); Matt 24:31 Day of Trumpet; I Cor 15:52 Day of Trumpet; I Thess 4:16-18 Day of Trumpet; Rev 11:15-17 7th Trumpet Judgment Day of Trumpet; Rev 12:1 Day of Trumpet.

            Now, why do you believe DmCal52 that 2550 days is shorter than 365 days.

            Why do you believe there is 6 years of Trumpet Judgments and 1 year of Bowl Judgments or 3.5 years of Trumpet Judgments and 3.5 years of Bowl Judgments when the 10 plagues of the Exodus ws only 5 months long.
            If the Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation, then why for the inconsistency of 7 years of Judgments?

            • Hello,

              You said:
              “When the seventh angel sounds his shofar, then The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and his Messiah, and Adonai has begun to rule. The active reign of God on earth, the Messianic Kingdom, promised at 1:5-8 and 6:10, now begins to become real. Between these verses and chapter 19 are the various judgments and other events associated with the overthrow of the system of this world and the inauguration of the Messiah’s rulership. This is why essentially the same cry is heard again at 19:6: “Halleluyah! Adonai, God of heaven’s armies, has begun his reign!”

              Jesus does not begin to rule at that announcement after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. We have a similar announcement in Rev.12:10-12 after Satan and his angels have been cast to the earth. Yet, scripture reveals that there are seven bowl judgments left to be fulfilled before Jesus physically returns to the earth. And we know this to be true because, after the 6th bowl has been poured out, Jesus interjects the following within the narrative:

              “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

              That the Lord is interjecting the above after the 6th bowl has been poured out, would demonstrate that he will have not yet returned to the earth until after the 7th bowl has been poured out. And his return to the earth to end the age is recorded in detail in Rev.19:11-21.

              You said:
              “DmCal52, As you said the seals are stacked during both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments all the way up to Armageddon”

              I never said that the seals, trumpets and bowls are stacked, but they take place in the chronological order that they appear in Revelation. The reason I say this is because, expositors proclaim that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are stacked so that they are running parallel. There are some who also distort the scriptures by saying that neither the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments have to take place in the order that they are listed. But in fact, they do take place in the order that they are listed, which is why they are numbered as 1 thru 7.

              • DMcal52
                You say seal 1 has not been opened because the Antichrist has not been revealed.

                OBAMA PROCLAIMS – I AM The ANTICHRIST – The ISLAMIC MAHDI …

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIvJDIOqto

                This is the official white house tweet where the White house tweets a Picture of Barack Obama having the AntiChrist, or the Islamic Mahdi…

                The Bible Code Definitively Proves Obama Is The Antichrist …

                http://www.rightwingwatch.org/…definitively-proves-obama-is-the-antichrist

                Wiles: So either Barack Obama is the Man of Sin, commonly known as the Antichrist, the Bible doesn’t say ‘Antichrist’ it says ‘Man of Sin.’

                Why So Many People Think Obama Is the Antichrist …

                http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/watchman-on-the-wall/50914-why-so...

                It turns out, 1 in 5 Republicans think Obama is the Antichrist, according to Public Policy Polling. Obama is an pro-abortion activist and a pro-gay president who …

                • Good day jardalkal,

                  You said:
                  “You say seal 1 has not been opened because the Antichrist has not been revealed.
                  OBAMA PROCLAIMS – I AM The ANTICHRIST – The ISLAMIC MAHDI …”

                  Obama can claim that he is the antichrist all he wants, but unless he fits the characteristics that scripture specifies, neither Obama nor anyone else has yet met the requirements as being the antichrist.

                  The antichrist will be revealed when he makes his seven year covenant with Israel. Once he does that, 3 1/2 years later he will set up the abomination in the holy place within the temple. Since Obama has not made a seven year covenant with Israel and no abomination has been set up, and he has not received a fatal wound, then Obama cannot be the antichrhist. Those are for starters.

                  You said:
                  “Wiles: So either Barack Obama is the Man of Sin, commonly known as the Antichrist, the Bible doesn’t say ‘Antichrist’ it says ‘Man of Sin.’ ”

                  The man in question is referred to by a couple of different names, the ruler – Dan.9:26, The man of lawlessness – 2 Thes.2:3, John refers to him as the antichrst – 1 Jn.2:18, and as the beast in Revelation.

                  The reason why so many people think Obama is the antichrist is for the same reason that they said it was Nero, Hitler, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan, and everyone else that they have guessed at. The fact is that, it won’t be until that person comes along that fits the criteria of what scripture says. Until then, they are only guesses.

                  I maintain, based on scripture, that Obama is not the antichrist and that the 1st seal has yet to be opened.

                  • Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant.

                    right now, bozo is about to make a covenant with the many arab groups to recognize Palestine, using words that refer to Israel as terrorist in nature. He does not care if Israel agrees to this.

                    if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.

              • DmCal 52

                You still have not answered my question and you still believe 7 years is short.

                Which is shorter? 2550 dys, 1260 days, or 365 Days.

                So far you have mentioned 7 years (2550 days) and 1260 days as being short compared to 365 days.

                So which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 days.

                • Jardalkal,

                  You said:
                  “You still have not answered my question and you still believe 7 years is short.

                  Which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 Days.
                  So far you have mentioned 7 years (2550 days) and 1260 days as being short compared to 365 days. So which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days, or 365 days.”

                  Not sure why you are asking this, because the answer is obvious. So, I’ll just say the following:

                  The decree proclaimed against Israel in Dan.9:24-27 seventy sets of seven year periods, which totals 490 years.

                  7 X 7 = To restore and rebuild Jerusalem

                  62 X 7 = The Messiah cut off/crucified at the end of 69 sevens

                  Christ’s being cut off brings us to 69 sevens being fulfilled. At that time, God put a hold on that last seven years described in Dan.9:27, because it was to be fulfilled at a future time, when that antichrist would be revealed. The next event to take place will be when the restrainer is taken out of the way and therefore the church with him, and then the man of lawlessness will be revealed when he makes that seven year covenant. In Mt.24:15, Jesus quoting Dan.9:27 identified the setting up of the abomination as the beginning of the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 year period. Regarding that last 3 1/2 years, Jesus said,

                  “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

                  In other words, if those days were allowed to go on any longer than the the specified 3 1/2 years, then no one on earth would be left alive.

                  The book of Revelation refers to that seven years as, 1260 days, 42 months and as a time, times and a half a time.

                  First 3 1/2 years:

                  The two witnesses prophesy

                  Second 3 1/2 years:

                  * Abomination set up
                  * The beast is given authority to make war and conquer the saints
                  * The woman/Israel is cared for out in the desert

          • Decal

            I think you may have misunderstood me. I was saying that the 7th trumpet is one blown by an angel but the trump of God is God’s voice sounding like a trumpet. Two different trumpets and events.

  16. Greetings Jardalkal,

    you said:
    “There is no mention of the word wrath in Chapters 1-6 until you get to the 7tth seal.”

    Yours and others error regarding this stems from the following:

    “the great day of their wrath [has come] and who can endure it”

    you interpret the wrath as taking place after the announcement, which is the error. The words “has come” also includes what will have previously taken place, namely the seals 1 thru 4. In further support of this, I would remind you that “has come” is also in the Aorist tense.

    The facts is that it is Jesus who is the One opening the seals and the result is that a fourth of the inhabitants of the earth are killed, which based on 7 billion people would be 1.7 billion fatalities. People come up with all kinds of apologetic’s in order to dismiss the idea that just because Jesus is opening the seals doesn’t mean that it represents God’s wrath. They do this only to support the belief that they have adopted and that because we are living in that time that Paul spoke of when people would not put up with sound docrine.

    The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments were never meant to be sliced up into one part being tribulation and the other the wrath of God. It is because of false teachings that this has come about. These three sets of seven judgments are how God is going to carry out his wrath upon the earth. They will be the fulfillment of what both the OT prophets and the apostles proclaimed, which will be the fulfillment of day of the Lord leading up to Christ’s return to end the age.

    Since scripture makes very clear that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God’s coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf, believers cannot and will not go through God’s wrath. The church will be gathered from this earth before that first seal is opened, guaranteed! Therefore, comfort one another with these words. Consequently, there would be no comfort if the living church were to go through God’s wrath. Nor would it be a blessed hope.

    • dmcal

      those that deserve the wrath are still busy persecuting others in the first 5 seals to notice any wrath

    • dmcal52
      Here is your stupid teaching on that.
      1) 6 years of seals and trumpet judgements, and one year of bowl judgements.
      or 3.5 years of Trumpet Judgments and 3.5 years of Bowl judgments.
      I have read all the books that people sell.
      Isaiah’s Teachings and Jim Gui? agrees: 5 months of Trumpet Judgments and 7 months of bowl judgements.
      Now comes the problem. “these times will be shortened in Matthew 24:
      The seals occur between v. 3 and 14. Then comes the rest. Why is verse 16 not mentioned at v. 3. Why place it after the seals?
      Which is shorter: 2550 days or 365 days. You in your demented state would say 2550 days is shorter than 365 days.
      Like you say, you can not use math because it would show up your lies.

      • jar

        do not accuse him of lying. this is just his opinion.

      • Good day Jardalkal,

        I would have to say that by your attitude, you shouldn’t be one to be teaching anything from scripture, because you have other issues going on. But regarding the Lord’s reference to “except those days were shortened” the meaning is that, if the time of wrath was allowed to go on any longer than what scripture states, which is 3 1/2 years, then no one would be left alive on the earth. As it is, the prophecy is for seven years, with the last 3 1/2 years referred to as the great tribulation and that because it is combined with God’s wrath and is the time when the beast will be given authority to make war and conquer the saints.

        You said:
        “I have read all the books that people sell.”

        And that is where your error most likely comes from. I read scripture as my source for the truth, not the teachings of men. The information that I am sharing with you comes from many years of study in end-time events.

        You said:
        “Like you say, you can not use math because it would show up your lies”

        Please reveal where I have said that about not using math and where I have lied. I don’t lie about scripture, but I proclaim what I know from comparing and cross-referencing scripture.

        You said:
        “Isaiah’s Teachings and Jim Gui? agrees: 5 months of Trumpet Judgments and 7 months of bowl judgements.”

        I’m not concerned too much about the length of time for each seal, trumpet and bowl judgment, but I can tell you this, 5 months for the trumpet judgments as you stated above, will definitely not work. And that because the 5th trumpet by itself is 5 months long, as can be determined from the following:

        “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months.” (Rev.9:5)

        “They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.” (Rev.9:10)

        So as you can see, the 5th trumpet alone is 5 months in length and therefore, the trumpet judgments must cover a greater time period than just 5 months.

        You said:
        “Now comes the problem. “these times will be shortened in Matthew 24: The seals occur between v. 3 and 14. Then comes the rest. Why is verse 16 not mentioned at v. 3. Why place it after the seals?

        Regarding the above, did you see where I mentioned that the words “the great day of their wrath ‘has come’ ” as being in the Aorist tense? Do you know what the Aorist tense is?

        Aorist:
        aorist. n. 1. (Grammar) grammar a tense of the verb in classical Greek and in certain other inflected languages, indicating past action without reference to whether the action involved was momentary or continuous.

        Therefore, the words ‘has come’ ” includes what had previously taken place as well, namely the first four seals and not just everything that comes after the announcement. The meaning of those words would be, “the great day of their wrath has begun and will continue.”

        • DmCal52
          You already lie because you are not 52 years old.

          Which is shorter? 2550 days, 1260 days or 365 days.

          You say the seals come first, then the Trumpet Judgments and then the Bowl Judgments.
          Then you say the seals are not stacked but then you say the seals are stacked over the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments.

          Make up your wishy, washy mind.

          You are the one who should not be teaching.

          • “Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be.”

            “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

          • Hello jardalkal,

            Is that the same kind of logic that you use to interpret scripture too? I have not lied. My id is dmcal52, because that was how old I was when I first signed up on Marianne’s page. I’m not going to change it to reflect my age every year.

            • DmCal52,

              365 days is shorter for the Day of the Lord. The Great Tribulation for Israel Biblical lands is 1260 days of the 2550 days or 7 years but it is the last year that the Trumpet and Bowl judgements are poured out.
              You see the problem is to call the Day of the Lord being 7 years. In the Bible, it should be 7 Days of the Lord instead of Day of the Lord if you plan on 7 years for the Day of the Lord.
              So you have to cut out of the Bible out 24:5; Jn 6:40, 44,54, Revelation 2:10; 3 verses in Isaiah, and this:

              Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
              Rev_22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

              For me that is too much to cut out of the Bible to keep to the philosophy that the Day of the Lord will be 7 years of hell on earth. As it is for the Bible Lands, they go through 9 years (Rev 2:10) of Hell before the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments arrive in the last year.

            • DmCal58,
              Covenant of Many 1.

              Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Covenant (MOU) “Memorandum of Understanding” was signed by anti-Christ with the Arab League on April 23, 2009 on Day 5 in the month of Abib/Nisan. http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/holy-see-and-league-of-arab-states-sign-agreement. Yom HaShoah Israel State Holiday Holocaust Remembrance Day. This could have been the seven year peace treaty everybody was looking for to be signed.
              Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Pope’s Secretary of State was present to represent the Holy See, along with other Vatican officials, including Monsignor Fortunatus Nwachukwu, Monsignor Alberto Ortega; Monsignor Christophe El-Kassis, Monsignor Nicolas Thevenin and Monsignor Lech Piechota.

              A delegation from the League of Arab States was headed by Walid Al Gargani. Some member countries of the league were also represented by their ambassadors to the Holy See.

              The League of Arab States, seated in Cairo, was started in 1945, and is comprised of 22 countries, including: Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Kuwait.
              Israel is not mentioned nor is it a member of the Arab League.
              This is a weak transaction in my opinion but there is the possibility of it being a peace treaty. What is interesting is that it is in the month of Abib which gives it credence. March 22, 2013 was on day 6 on the Fast of Nadab and Abihu (Lev. 10:1-2) in the month of Abib. If Jesus returns on September 23, 2017 on the Day of Trumpet, then March 22, 2013 is 1290 days from the Day of Trumpet in 2016. The Holocaust was the death of Jews during WWII.

            • I guess that makes me marianne 56 🙂

            • DmCal 50+2-20,
              Covenant of Many 2

              Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

              Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. The Final 70 years were confirmed to have started in 1947 at the order to restore Jerusalem. By the exact number of years, 62, it was confirmed that the Covenant with Many would be signed in 2009. 1947 + 62 = 2009. By the exact number of days, 1260, the Covenant with Many was confirmed as the Nobel Peace Prize given to Barack Obama. October 9, 2009 Friday, to March 22, 2013 is exactly 1260 days, 3.5 years, Midweek on the final 7 years. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ has been shown by the exact number of days, 1290 days from March 22, 2013 to Oct 3, 2016, the first day of Rosh Hoshanna, the Feast of Trumpets. Nov 11, 1947+69 shemitahs (7 years) =2016. signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4
              1947+62 shavuots=Obama becoming president on January 20th, 2009+7=Obama’s Presidency ends.
              October 9, 2009 was on day 6 during Feast of Tabernacles. Obama was given the Nobel Peace Medaillion in honor of keeping the Non-Proliferation Treaty of the UN in 1968. “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_laureates;

              • Jaldalkal said:
                “Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. ”

                Since the seven year covenant with Israel has not yet been established, then the abomination which takes place in the middle of the seven years could not have taken place either. The antichrist has yet to be revealed. Until that covenant is made, the antichrist has not yet been revealed.

                Jaldalkal said:
                “signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4

                The fact that you go to YouTube to prove your position is the problem. This is what is meant by, “the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine. But to suit their own desires, they will gather around themselves a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. To put this into perspective for today, that great number of teachers are books, seminars, youtube, websites and hearsay. Scripture is the only source of God’s truth.

                Regarding Obama, until he or anyone else exhibits the characteristics written about regarding the man of lawlessness/antichrist, neither he nor anyone else can be the antichrist. Obama has not received a fatal wound and revived. He is not speaking boastful words against God and those who dwell in heaven. There is no false prophet performing miraculous signs on anyone’s one’s behalf. In short, until someone comes along and performs what is written regarding the antichrist, then hasn’t come yet. Obama is just another in the long line of peoples guesses at who the antichrist is and that’s it.

                • DmCal52,
                  I guess that you do not watch TV, read books, articles, magazines, or go to seminars, webinars, or watch Youtube video’s. I bet you that you do not even listen to the Radio. You do not visit Breaking Israel News.com. You also do not get wordpress announcements either.
                  So why are you on Marianne’s Webpage with itchy ears?
                  So you just read the Bible 20 hours out of the day. Did you know that by doing that, you can read the Bible in one month. Month after Month after Month after Month with no social life of any kind.

                  • dmcal can visit here, like you do….

                  • Actually, I do watch tv. the news, listen to the radio, read books, articles, etc. I just don’t use them as my source for the truth of God’s word. I also get wordpress announcements, otherwise i wouldn’t be alerted via email when new wordpress threads are created.

                    I am not on Marianne’s web page with itching ears. But when I see false teachings, I correct them by using scripture to back it up. I’m just trying to give you the reasons regarding your claim of Obama being the antichrist and why that is not possible. In order to make any biblical claims, the characteristics of that claim must be present for the person or event, otherwise it just conjecture and hearsay.

                    • I hope I am not “itching” anyone’s ears….my desire is that people think for themselves

                    • John Ashcraft here.
                      I just read books and articles because I am autistic with Asperger Syndrome. I do not watch TV especially the news, nor do I own a radio.
                      Instaed I use the internet until it is taken down. I do watch a lot of youtube especially Star Trek, Sci-Fi, and I love to watch disaster movies.
                      Most of my information comes from Headlines of news articles. My main sources are Breaking Israel News, Steve Quayle.com, Beforeitsnews.com, and occasionally other prophecy websites.
                      I don’t even go to church on the Sabbath or Sunday but I do listen to Online Church Services who have prophecy as one of their main emphasis.
                      I have been kicked out of most local congregations in my area due to 1) Autism; 2) Sabbath Keeping; 3) Sabbath study tied to Feasts of the Lord; 4) Eschatological views. 30% of the Bible ties to Leviticus 23 which ties to Gen 1:14 (a prophecy) which ties to Gen 1:1 (a prophecy); and 5) God dreams and obedience to God and the fulfillment of those dreams. The next one on this list of over 40 is a global earthquake. Timerame: Day of Atonement or Day of Trumpet or even the 2nd Month of 5777 and the 17th Day (Nov. 16-18) or Oct? in 2017.

                    • John,

                      OT but…

                      At what age did you actually sort of join the world so to speak? My 11 yo son is Aspergers (though no longer recognized separately from autism). He’s very unfocused, in his own video game world. Still afraid of bikes at 11. I heard it gets better in the teenage years. Does it?

            • DmCal 60,

              Covenant of Many 3.
              Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant.

              right now, bozo is about to make a covenant with the many arab groups to recognize Palestine, using words that refer to Israel as terrorist in nature. He does not care if Israel agrees to this.

              if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.

              Marianne said this on October 31, 2016 at 11:04 am | Reply

              • Hello jardalkal,

                First of all a correction “Dmcal59.” I turned 59 this last June. But if it is all the same to you, I will just leaven my id as Dmcal52, because I don’t feel like changing every year to match my age.

                Jaldalkal said:
                “Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant”

                First of all, since the decree in Dan.9:24-27 was directed to Daniel’s people (Israel) and their holy city (Jerusalem), then yes, the covenant will be made with them. Also, that the covenant is with Israel can be deduced from that fact that, the ruler causes the sacrifices and offerings to cease, which would be speaking of Israel’s sacrifices and offerings. And thirdly, Dan.9:27 states that in the middle of the seven years, an abomination will be set up in the holy place, which would identify the location as being in the Jewish temple. So yes, the scripture does infer that the covenant will at least be with Israel. I suspect that it will also be with Islam in order to be able to build the temple on the temple mount.

                Jaldalkal said:
                if he gets together with this real bunch of terrorists (muslims, who are “many”) to take land from Israel, he will then identify himself.”

                No one is going to take the land from Israel. We still have the prophecy of Ezekiel 37-38. where God causes those who are coming down to attack Israel, Gog and Magog, where every man’s weapon will be against his fellow soldier. God wipes them out on the mountains of Israel without Israel lifting a finger.

                Prior to that event, in the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up, it will cause the desolation, which is where those in Jerusalem and Judea will flee into the desert and will be cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years, as recorded in Matt.24:15-21 and Rev.12:6,14.

                • Decal 52,
                  I am turning 58 on the 19th which is the Sabbath just after the Second Month and Seventeenth Day of Genesis 7:11 which is a part of Daniel’s timeline
                  Proclamation of Israel 1947 CE. 1947 +62 Shavuots (Weeks/Feast of Weeks/Pentecosts) = 2009 when Obama received the Norwegian Peace Medallion (Covenant of Many; Daniel 9:25-27) + 1260 days = March 22, 2013 (Obama’s Trip to Israel where he did seven events that are assigned to the Antichrist). The trip was March 20th-23rd, Wed-Sabbath). March 22 was Abib 10 (Fast of Ahab and Nabib?). This day was the dy that Jesus rode into Jerusalem on his beast and Obama rode into Jerusalem on his beast. 1335 days (Daniel 12) lands us on Nov. 18th, 2016 which is the day the flood began.
                  Could it be that the Great Tribulation or the Day of the Lord can begin on the exact day the Flood began?
                  Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com (Cheshvan 2016 2nd Month of 5777 or Month 8). 8 means a new beginning.

                  The Ezekiel War is is chapter 38 and 39 and not 37 and 38. It is also called the War of Armageddon.
                  I believe WWIII war will be the war between the King of the North and the King of the South (Dan 11). It may take place either in the Middle East or in Ukraine.
                  Here are the 2 teams.
                  King of the North: Russia coming together with China and India, Philippines, Iraq, Egypt, and Turkey
                  Russia, Iran, Syria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Phillipines, Iraq, China, India

                  King of the South: Islamic Extremists (ISIS Cia Operation; ISIL); NATO Backed by Obama.
                  This war will or may be tied to the Psalm 83 War which is the War prior to the Ezekiel 38-39 War. This war is also tied to Ezekiel 37.

                  • Greetings jardalkal,

                    You said:
                    “(Obama’s Trip to Israel where he did seven events that are assigned to the Antichrist).”

                    The way that the antichrist will be revealed, is by the one who establishes that seven year covenant with Israel.

                    Another sign is that 3 1/2 years after he establishes that seven year covenant, he will cause Israel’s sacrifices to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple.

                    He will also receive a fatal wound (something that can’t be survived) and will recover from it and that for further deception.

                    From the middle of that seven years, he will proclaim himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped and he will have authority over every tribe, people, nation and language.

                    He will also have that false prophet performing those miracles, signs and wonders on his behalf and that in order to deceive the inhabitants of the world.

                    These are the signs that identify the antichrist and Obama has not done any of those things. This man who is coming will be unlike any political leader that the word has seen and the will be drawn to him and in awe of him. Obama does not fit any of the criteria as the antichrist.

                    • DmCal52,
                      You have only said 4 items of the Antichrist but you left out at least 10 others. You need to do your homework which you have not done.

                      The Antichrist must relate to a large number of biblical names and references to himself. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willfull king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.
                      Before Christ returns to set up His kingdom of peace, Satan will enter a man’s body and present his counterfeit, the Antichrist, as the Messiah. This internationally deified dictator will inaugurate a world peace program which holds the world spellbound for 42 months, or three and one-half years. When the world believes utopia has arrived, the bottom falls out. In the middle of the seven -year period of Tribulation, the Antichrist breaks all of his pledges and destroys his contractual obligations with Israel (Daniel 9:27; I Thess 5:3). He will come out of an amalgamation of ten Western nations (Daniel 9:36).
                      This sinister, demon-inspired leader will rise to dominate the world in the end-time, persecute the saints, seek to destroy the Jew and banish the name of God and His Christ from the earth, and thus take over.
                      King of Babylon (Isa 14:4)
                      Little horn (Daniel 7:8). The “little horn” arises out of the fourth beast which represents Rome. It is likely that Antichrist will rise out of the revived Roman Empire. This term is also used of Antiochus Epiphanes in Daniel 8:9.
                      Others believe that he will come out of the Ottoman Empire or Islamic Empire.
                      King of fierce countenance (Dan 8:23). Antichrist will be a cruel ruler, trampling men under foot without fear of God. He is also called the willful king (Daniel 11:36).
                      The prince that shall come (Daniel 9:26). The people of the coming prince are the ones who will destroy the city and the sancturary. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD under Titus, seeming to identify the Antichrist as a Roman head of the revived Roman Empire.
                      That man of sin or man of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:3). The Antichrist is a lawless individual, the very embodiment of sin.

                      5 pages to go.

                    • DmCal52
                      4 views of the Antichrist.

                      “Principle of evil” view. Advocates propose that Antichrist is a personification of some evil principle, power (s), or idea (s) of the world, always until the end of time in opposition to the kingdom of God.

                      Institution of evil” view. This is an appropriate name for the idea that the Roman Empire or the Papacy or the Muslim religion, is the Antichrist. We have the Black Pope, the White Pope, Erdogan, and Obama, and Prince William as candidates for this position.
                      So far, it is a tie between the Papacy and the Muslim religion but the Muslims are gaining by Political Jihad.

                      “Person of evil” view is still another. Some contemporary man who seems particularly dangerous to Christianity in the opinion of the interpreter has frequently been held to be the man of sin of II Thess 2 or the Beast of Revelation and Daniel.
                      This is your view of the Antichrist.

                      Among evangelicals, far more common is what may be called the “organic” view. This is the opinion that good and evil have parallel development and reach ultimate concummation in a personal Christ and a personal Antichrist and that these meet in final conflict at the second advent of Christ.

                    • DmCal52
                      The Doctrine of the Antichrist. Though Daniel and Revelation have more material on this subject, the most detailed systematic treatment is in II Thess 2. Examination yields information that a consummately evil person called “the man of sin,” “son of perdition, and “lawless one” shall someday “be revealed.” This revelation is to take place before (presumably shortly before) “the day of the Lord.” With revelation of the man of sin will come a general apostasy from true religion, or “falling away.” He will oppose God, exalt himself, demand divine honors, and in a general way be consummate godlessness and Antichrist. His coming will be the fruition of evil forces (“the mystery of lawlessness”) now operating (II Thess 2:7). His success shall come, temporarily, by Satanic power and divine permissive providence (vv. 9-12), but ultimately he shall be slain by Christ’s own manifestation at His coming (v. 8) See also Rev 13:1 ff; Dan 7:8ff; 11:36ff). Jesus speaks of him as one who comes in his “own name” (Jn 5:43).

                      Both Obama and the White Pope has said that they have come in their own name. For the Pope, it was 9/20-23+ in 2015.

                      The Pope and Obama has opposed God.
                      They both have exalted themselves. The Pope is called the Vicar of God.
                      They both demand divine honors. People bow to the Pope and people bow or worship Obama.
                      Both the Pope and Obama consummate godlessness and are Antichrist.

                      Some even say Putin is the Antichrst.
                      In some circles I have been in, they believe that America is controlled by the Papacy and the Papacy tells Obama what to do and he also listens more to all the Islamics that he has placed in the offices at Washington. It is rumored that over 1/2 of the offices if not 3/4’s is governed over by Islamics now. Back in 2014, Obama fired all the Christians working in DC Capital and replaced them with Islamics.

                • DmCal52
                  “Daniel does not say there is a covenant with ISrael…but a “covenant with many”…..Israel MAY be part of the covenant or may only be the topic of the covenant”
                  Marianne said this. I just requoted it. I am autistic and I often repeat what others say or write. For me, it is called: Echolalia. There is a technical term for it but it is not in my vocabulary until I repeat it often.
                  Personally, I repeat words, phrases, or whole sentences. However, I writing, I cut, copy, and paste what others say even though I do get them sometimes misquoted.
                  I don’t misquote them but I forget time sequences occasionally like I did with DJ and Obama’s trip around March 20th-23rd, 2013. I remember 22nd mostly so I guessed that it was from the 22 to the 25th without relooking at the article I compiled from other sources.

  17. Hal Lindsey: Get Ready! No Remaining Prophesies Need to Be Fulfilled Before Christ Returns (Video).

    Sunday, October 16, 2016 8:26

    Beforeitsnews.com Hal Lindsey Report by Due Diligence.

  18. her mention about the book of enoch


  19. ” Journalists ” don’t try to gin up sympathy by injecting themselves into a story . B. It’s all staged to push their Agenda , he provides time to push their propaganda for his puppet masters .
    Bottom line , Most ” news ” is all STAGED ., wikileak prove it,
    this guy is such a scum bag, the way he lies with his soft spoken language and intelligence. They are slowly revealing themselves and they want us to know who they are. This is America and it is hard to believe this is happening in this way.
    the guy is an illuminati puppet – he is a counsel of foreign relations / new world order PUPPET – these reporters their scripts for the mind control of the population, wikileaks prove it, Just look at the look in his evil eyes. This guy is a piece of illuminati -puppet. wikileaks prove it, puppet of his master,
    this owl & other symbols, that owl is a symbol for child sacrifice, since when kids were sacrificed to moloch they were said to always be the first born of the family

  20. http://www.tenboom.com/en/index.html

    Ten corrie boom and her family ‘story , we need to watch this

    http://tenboom.org/

    carrie boom museum



  21. http://www.tenboom.com/en/index.html


  22. Hi Marianne ,

    social justice is not biblical , right ?

    if they are different , could you briefly , one or two word to tell the difference.

    thanks

    • q

      the term “social justice” has a very liberal and limited definition

      true divine social justice is fairness to everyone…..not just a select group, to the harm of others.. it is also holy, and in line with god’s will and commandments…and is born out of love toward others

      the liberal view discriminates against jews, christians, and most of the human race, especially women and babies…example abortion.. only some are seen as victims, only some are given rights, and others have no rights.. most of the time, evil rules and good suffers.. liberal view is selfish and unfair



  23. Hi Marianne,

    what is your endtime timeline?
    from the above video 1260, the pastor think this year we might enter into the
    final 7 years?

    what is your thoughts ?

    thanks

    God BLess

    q

    • q

      it seems like something would have to happen before bozo leaves office.

    • Hello q,

      If I may jump in here: We are most definitely living in that last generation leading up to that last seven years. taking into consideration the current condition of the world governments and the fact that we currently have the technology for computer chip implants and that people are already being implanted under the skin of the hand, would be just one way of knowing that we are very close The reason that we have this technology demonstrates that he stage is being set for the beast and his mark. I hopefully this link regarding the chip implant will work:

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      • DmCal52 and Q,
        Mark of the Beast mandatory by 2017
        Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com.
        Real ID mandatory for the USA by November 18. Local Newspaper heading. I think there was an earlier date than the 18th, So plan on getting a new driver’s license soon.

  24. http://www.ihopkc.org/resources/asset/2016_10_30_1100_MSG_FCF/auto/true/

  25. DmCal 52,
    Covenant of Many.

    The way that the antichrist will be revealed, is by the one who establishes that seven year covenant with Israel.

    The date is the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles in 2009.

    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    Weeks above refers to Lev. 23 Feast of Weeks or Pentecost in Christian terms.
    So we have 70 years to fulfill.

    1945 CE Sabbath year (Shmita שמיטה‎) Atomic Bomb dropped on Japan on Aug 9th; WWII ends Sept 2, 1945 (war in the sky-Rev 12); United League of Nations changed name to the United Nations (change times and seasons). Liberation of Jews from prison camps.
    Perry Stone Jubilee 69th Jubilee
    1946 CE The first meeting of the United Nations (UN) is held in London. The “fig tree nation” – Israel – put forth its leaves in 1947 (UN resolution 181) when it was recognized by the UN as being a nation … a “generation” is generally considered to be 70 years. Which means that before 2017 all that Yahovah prophesied concerning the end-time events MUST come to pass.
    1947 CE Nov. 29, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews; Dead Sea Scrolls discovered. Parallel dates: Abraham was born in 1948 BCE. From 1494 until 1949 there were ZERO sets of blood Red Moons! Proclamation for Israel to become a nation went out. 70 years to 2017. Israel (Lamentations 2) is the little horn of the beast of Revelation 12. The Mediterranean Sea upside down looks like a Beast. Jewish Year 5708 =Seasons of the birth pains = Matt 24:8 sorrows/birth pains.
    1948 CE May 14, Israel is re-established 1260 + 1260 years since Ezekiel measured Temple Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin” (Daniel 5:5,24) 1000 + 1000 + 20 (Aramaic Mina, which equaled 1,000 Gerahs plus Tekel (Shekel equals 20 Gerahs) dividing “Mene” would have to be 500 therefore the total years are 2520 from 539 BCE to 1948 CE; End of British Mandate (14 May)State of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon. Jerusalem divided under Israeli and Jordanian rule. First Knesset (parliament) elected. Israel admitted to United Nations as 59th member. Israel reestablished as a nation after 18 years. 1948=5708 Jewish year and the 5,708 verse in the Torah is Deut. 30:5.

    2015-2018 is the 70 years timeslot. 2015 was a Sabbath Year. Remember the events in September of 2015 in America with the Speeches from Obama and the Pope. I have all the articles on this one. As for signs in the Sun, Moon and Stars, there were 9 in this year.
    2016 was the Gregorian Year of Jubilee. As for sings in the Sun, Moon, and Stars, there have been over 20 so far. November makes around 24.
    2017 has over 20 events tied to Israel’s past. We also have the Woman clothed with the Sun in 2017 on the Day of Trumpet which may or will be the Second Coming of Jesus and possibly Armageddon on the 30th of September on the Day of Atonement.
    2018 The Second Coming and Armageddon on the Day of Atonement.

    The other timeframe according to Psalm 90 is 80 years which will be from 2025-2028, but you lose 50 percent of the events that line up with 2017.

  26. Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Double Prophecy. 1st one was 28-33 CE and 70 CE by Jesus who is Messiah the Prince.
    70 minus 40 years is 30 CE for the Death of Christ. 40 is a Biblical number.
    Michael Rood believes Jesus had a 70 week ministry. I have the documents. So his death date is 28 CE or 29 CE.
    Most Christians believe 33 CE was His death and they believe it was on a Friday which is Man’s day/Satan’s Day which goes against Leviticus 23. God follows the 4th day and the Sabbath’s while man follows Friday and Sunday.

    Now this is where the Christians change and say that this refers to the Antichrist and not Jesus but personally I believe Jesus fulfilled it fully.

    Jardalkal@aol.com.

    • Good day jardalkal,

      You said:
      “Now this is where the Christians change and say that this refers to the Antichrist and not Jesus but personally I believe Jesus fulfilled it fully. ”

      In Dan.9:27, the “He” of the verse performs the following:

      * “He” establishes a seven year covenant with many/Israel

      * In the middle of the seven “He” puts a stop to sacrifices

      * In the middle of the seven “He” sets up an abomination

      Regarding the above, a person might be able to convince people that Jesus is the “He” of the verse, fulfilling the first two on the list. But when you come to the third, it becomes obvious that Jesus cannot be the “He” of the verse.

      The word “bdelugma” translated as abomination, is defined as “properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent” before God. And since it is an act against God, Jesus could not be the “He” in the verse who is setting up the abomination, for he would be blaspheming God the Father and himself.

      The issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given by King Artaxerxes on behalf of Nehemiah. The date listed in the margin of my Bible is 446-445 BC.

      7 X 7 (49 years) = to restore and rebuild Jerusalem

      62 x 7 (434 years) = At the end of 69 sevens Messiah crucified

      Total 483 years

      446 BC minus 483 years = 37 AD

      This puts us in the ball park of the Messiah being cut off/Christ crucified. With the calendar change, this would fit perfectly.

      From the time of the Messiah being cut off, God put a hold on the last seven years for a future fulfillment at the end the age and began to build the church. Once the church has been completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and gather the church from the earth. Following that, the last seven years of that seventy sevens will commence when that ruler, the antichrist establishes his seven year covenant with Israel.

      It is during this last seven years that God will pour out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all that is written regarding Israel.

      • DmCal52.

        Many scholars place the death of Jesus between 29 CE and 33 CE.
        Now I understand why you believe that we have at least 10 to 20 more years to go until the return of Christ.
        You definitely have a faulty math issue. Michael Rood says 29 CE for the Death of Christ. Dr William Frederick says 33 CE.

        Yours says 37 CE when Christ ministry began in 27 CE. So why do you believe Jesus had a ten year ministry?

        Conception of Christ Chanukkah 3 BC +30 years =27 CE +10 year ministry = 37 CE for his death. Most believe that he had a 3 year ministry and some believe He had a 70 week ministry.
        So why do you believe that He had a ten year ministry?

  27. Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    1947 CE Nov. 29, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for Palestine to be partitioned between Arabs and Jews; Dead Sea Scrolls discovered. Parallel dates: Abraham was born in 1948 BCE. From 1494 until 1949 there were ZERO sets of blood Red Moons! Proclamation for Israel to become a nation went out. 70 years to 2017. Israel (Lamentations 2) is the little horn of the beast of Revelation 12. The Mediterranean Sea upside down looks like a Beast. Jewish Year 5708 =Seasons of the birth pains = Matt 24:8 sorrows/birth pains.

    1947+62 Weeks/Feast of Weeks/Pentecost= 2009.

    2009 Solar eclipse 1st day of Abib אביב. Matthew 24: 6-8 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

    2009 Sabbath Year

    1) Covenant (MOU) “Memorandum of Understanding” was signed by anti-Christ with the Arab League on April 23, 2009 on Day 5 in the month of Abib/Nisan. http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/holy-see-and-league-of-arab-states-sign-agreement. Yom HaShoah Israel State Holiday Holocaust Remembrance Day. This could have been the seven year peace treaty everybody was looking for to be signed.
    Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, the Pope’s Secretary of State was present to represent the Holy See, along with other Vatican officials, including Monsignor Fortunatus Nwachukwu, Monsignor Alberto Ortega; Monsignor Christophe El-Kassis, Monsignor Nicolas Thevenin and Monsignor Lech Piechota.

    A delegation from the League of Arab States was headed by Walid Al Gargani. Some member countries of the league were also represented by their ambassadors to the Holy See.

    The League of Arab States, seated in Cairo, was started in 1945, and is comprised of 22 countries, including: Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Sudan, Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Kuwait.
    Israel is not mentioned nor is it a member of the Arab League.
    This is a weak transaction in my opinion but there is the possibility of it being a peace treaty. What is interesting is that it is in the month of Abib which gives it credence.

    2) Though the Abomination of Desolation that was fulfilled on March 22, 2013, the Antichrist has been revealed, and the Sealed Book of Daniel has been Opened. The Final 70 years were confirmed to have started in 1947 at the order to restore Jerusalem. By the exact number of years, 62, it was confirmed that the Covenant with Many would be signed in 2009. 1947 + 62 = 2009. By the exact number of days, 1260, the Covenant with Many was confirmed as the Nobel Peace Prize given to Barack Obama. October 9, 2009 Friday, to March 22, 2013 is exactly 1260 days, 3.5 years, Midweek on the final 7 years. The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ has been shown by the exact number of days, 1290 days from March 22, 2013 to Oct 3, 2016, the first day of Rosh Hoshanna, the Feast of Trumpets. Nov 11, 1947+69 shemitahs (7 years) =2016. signofhiscoming.blogspot.com/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html#!/2013/07/chapter-8-abomination-fulfilled-march.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YAzVAy9Of4

    1947+62 shavuots=Obama becoming president on January 20th, 2009+7=Obama’s Presidency ends.
    October 9, 2009 was on day 6 during Feast of Tabernacles. Obama was given the Nobel Peace Medaillion in honor of keeping the Non-Proliferation Treaty of the UN in 1968. “for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nobel_Peace_Prize_laureates; http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/2009/press.html.

    I wait for your response that these events did not happen and these events do not fit the Antichrist as you DCal52 say that this is not a part for Obama.

  28. Morning Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “DmCal52,
    You have only said 4 items of the Antichrist but you left out at least 10 others.”

    Those characteristics that I mentioned are the ones that will identify him. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant. Until you see someone perform this, he is not the antichrist. Do you actually believe that Obama is going to have authority over every tribe, people, nation and language? Hardly! If Obama was the antichrist, we would have know it immediately.

    You said:
    “The Antichrist must relate to a large number of biblical names and references to himself. These begin with the “seed” of the serpent (Gen 3:15) and end with “the beast” (Rev 20:10). Most important are the “little horn” on the fourth beast of Dan 7:7 ff; “the prince that shall come” (Dan 9:26); “one who makes desolate” (Dan 9:27); the willful king of Daniel 11:36-39; “man of sin” and “son of perdition” as well as “the lawless one” (II Thess 2:3, 8); and “the beast” as one setting up an idol in God’s temple in the days just before His second advent (Matt 24:15). This Antichrist will be armed with satanic and demonic powers.”

    I have mentioned all those things that you listed above in previous posts. He will perform all of those things mentioned in Daniel after he has established that seven year period. The one that will identify him right from the get-go, will be the establishing of that seven years. If Obama was the antichrist, we would have known it a lot sooner than this. You can continue to believe that Obama is the antichrist if you want, but I can guarantee you, he is not the one.

    You said:
    “Satan will enter a man’s body and present his counterfeit, the Antichrist, as the Messiah”

    It is not Satan that is going to take control of the antichrist, but it will be that angel of that comes up out of the Abyss, the beast.. He is the one who will control him. And we know that the beast and Satan are two separate entities. The proof of this is that, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, while Satan is thrown into the Abyss and restricted there during that thousand years. Suffice to say, if you’ve got the beast going to one place and Satan going to another, then they can’t be the same entity.

    • who is a/c ? do you think ?

      • Hello q,

        I don’t have a candidate and that because no one has met the requirements of the ac. I believe that person will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant with Israel. Once he does this, those who are on the earth at that time and know scripture, will recognize him and will know that from the time that he initiates that seven year covenant, that 3 1/2 years later he is going to break it and set up that abomination in the holy place. According to 2 Thes.2:4, this man will also stand in the temple proclaiming himself to be God.

        I also believe that the abomination referred to in Daniel 9:27 and by Jesus in Mt.24:15, is synonymous with the image mentioned in Rev.13:14-15 that the false prophet has the people of the earth make in honor of the first beast/antichrist who survives the fatal wound.

        Also, I believe that the Lord will have appeared and gathered the church prior to the revealing of that antichrist and that because the One who now restrains (Holy Spirit) will be taken out of the way and therefore the church with Him and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

        Aside from this, I have no candidate as to who the ac is and I believe that God meant it to be that way. He will be revealed when he establishes that seven year covenant. Until then, everything is conjecture, guesses.

        Have a blessed day!

  29. Jardalkal,

    You said:
    “Both Obama and the White Pope has said that they have come in their own name. For the Pope, it was 9/20-23+ in 2015.”

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.” That said, has Israel received Obama as their Messiah? No, they have not. Neither have they received the pope as Messiah. When the antichrist does show up, he will receive a fatal wound and will survive, and that for the purpose of deceiving them and the inhabitants of the world into believing that he is God in the flesh. In addition, the false prophet (future pope) will be performing miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast as further proof that he is God. Obama has done none of those things. Not even close! The question is, what will you do when Obama doesn’t turn out to be the antichrist? The two identifying factors of the antichrist, regardless of all the other stuff mentioned are these:

    * He will make a covenant with many for seven years

    * In the middle of the seven years he will set up that abomination

    * The woman/Israel will flee into the desert for 1260 days (3 1/2 years)

    The first in the list is the one identifying factor that will reveal that he is that antichrist. The other thing is, I don’t believe the church will be here to see him, but will have been removed prior to his being revealed.

  30. DmCal52,

    Obama is the Antichrist maybe. beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/06/just-released-barack-hussein-obama-coincidence-or-could-he-actually-be-the-antichrist-wait-until-you-see-this-video-2462236.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/06/new-release-barack-hussein-obama-coincidence-or-could-he-actually-be-the-antichrist-wait-until-you-see-this-video-2462258.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFCQvvXSwx4 (About Obama being the Antichrist); The Son of Perdition: Barack Hussein Obama (Part 1 and 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdUkLtwl_hI ; -/www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GpUW0CVGKA ; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bbfwOU7zg8 ; Barack Obama: 2nd Beast of Revelation Tru News /www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdZRLF1OT5A; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/07/barack-obama-gay-drug-dealing-antichrist-man-testifies; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/sept-3-secrets-antichrist-and-the-end-of-days-they-worship-the-dragon-2463952.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/end-of-days-christians-announce-obamas-the-beast-pastor-says-obama-has-fulfilled-bibles-prophecy-video-2464032.html; beforeitsnews.com/obama/2014/09/drudge-obamas-head-of-horns-what-is-the-message-this-now-viral-picture-is-sending-2466606.html (Picture of horns and a pyramid above the head of Obama the Mahdi); beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/the-second-beast-the-two-horned-dragon-the-devil-himself-image-of-the-beast-2464176.html
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/08/son-of-satan-in-our-midst-barack-obama-is-he-the-antichrist-or-not-watch-this-and-see-for-yourself-the-facts-just-keep-piling-up-against-him-shocking-videos-2463676.html; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jraSqH5rPrM#t=57 (These two radio show hosts do not call that Obama is the Antichrist but has many of the characteristics)
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/05/judgment-lightning-strikes-world-trade-center-twice-as-pope-is-to-sit-on-king-davids-tomb; http://www.lmci.org/PDFs/EpiskoposFeb2013.pdf Note: Could the Pope just declared himself the Antichrist with this movement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0PfUPXLFUc&index=2&list=PLi5gyjf9yuSGbofuBPlCFi4H-_8MiZaPI; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uig3UFf6o_0
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/05/final-stage-is-now-set-for-the-antichrist-huge-news-only-a-few-weeks-away-urgent-call-for-global-prayer-video-and-photos-2461560.html
    beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/07/new-antichrist-candidate-and-you-wont-believe-who-it-is-and-the-temple-hes-about-to-desecrate-a-stunning-revelation-you-need-to-know-2462600.html
    beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/09/important-revelation-antichrist-obamas-role-of-imam-mahdi-calling-for-all-muslims-world-wide-to-unite-3021420.html; beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2014/09/the-biblical-antichrist-al-mahdi-of-islam-barack-hussein-obama-the-fourth-beast-2463928.html

  31. DmCal52,

    Pope may be the Antichrist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyi-wHQPQRs

    Erdogan may be the Antichrist. 2016 President of the UN Security Council. beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2016/06/beast-and-false-prophet-identified-2481385.html

  32. DmCa52,

    Obama as the Messiah Search







    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/2279718287_1c865f6505.jpg?v=0


    http://image.slidesharecdn.com/obamamessiah-the-new-american-magazine-101308pdf2320/95/obamamessiah-the-new-american-magazine-101308pdf-1-728.jpg?cb=1283698616










    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3011/2317269567_befdeeaa2b.jpg?v=0

    • DmCal52,
      You preach that Obama is not the Messiah or the Antichrist but the evidences from all the pictures, articles, and You-tubes present a better picture that he is. Shall we go to court. By the way, you are up against a paralegal.

      2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
      Deu_19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

      • “the pictures, articles, and You-tubes present a better picture that he is”

        The above is the reason for your error. Stick with the word of God and get away from YouTube and the web-sites.

        • you sure have a lot of patience….

          • Thanks! I would like to think so, as patience it is a virtue of love, but just like everyone else, I have my moments when I am not so patient.

            Though Jardalkal doesn’t believe me now, he will once he sees Obama fade into history with no fulfillment of anything that is written regarding the antichrist. Whoever the antichrist is, he will be recognizable from the on-set.

            I wish that people would stop relying on YouTube and the internet for interpreting prophecy. It is leading them to false conclusions.

            • You won’t have to wait too much longer for that. The internet will be going off the air. When? I do not know. Maybe by December.
              At least you have a TV and radio. I do not even have those. I will need a lot more books to read however.
              Once the internet goes down or freedom of speech goes away, then I will not be doing anything except read 1000 books in 12 months of time.

            • I agree that bozo is evil, and is already bringing destruction on america, and has an antichrist personality, but so have some other leaders…he however does not fulfill all the characteristics, but we will wait and see what happens next, with him around, it will not be good

  33. DmCal52,

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.”

    Beast 1 talk to Beast 2
    Read What President Obama Said to Pope Francis
    President Obama welcomed Pope Francis to the United States with a ceremony on the South Lawn of the White House featuring 15,000 guests.
    Here’s what the president said, according to prepared remarks released by the White House.
    Good morning! What a beautiful day the Lord has made! Holy Father, on behalf of Michelle and myself, welcome to the White House. Our backyard is not typically this crowded – but the size and spirit of today’s gathering is just a small reflection of the deep devotion of some 70 million American Catholics…and the way your message of love and hope has inspired so many people, across our nation and around the world. On behalf of the American people, it is my great honor and privilege to welcome you to the United States of America.

    Today, we mark many firsts. Your Holiness, you have been celebrated as the first Pope from the Americas. This is your first visit to the United States. And you are also the first pontiff to share an Encyclical through a Twitter account.

    Holy Father, your visit not only allows me, in some small way, to reciprocate the extraordinary hospitality you extended to me at the Vatican last year. It also reveals how much all Americans, from every background and of every faith, value the role that the Catholic Church plays in strengthening America. From my time working in impoverished neighborhoods with the Catholic Church in Chicago, to my travels as President, I’ve seen firsthand how, every day, Catholic communities, priests, nuns, and laity feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, educate our children, and fortify the faith that sustains so many.

    You remind us of the costs of war, particularly on the powerless and defenseless, and urge us toward the imperative of peace. Holy Father, we are grateful for your invaluable support of our new beginning with the Cuban people, which holds out the promise of better relations between our countries, greater cooperation across our hemisphere, and a better life for the Cuban people. We thank you for your passionate voice against the deadly conflicts that ravage the lives of so many men, women, and children; and your call for nations to resist the sirens of war and resolve disputes through diplomacy.

    And, Holy Father, you remind us that we have a sacred obligation to protect our planet – God’s magnificent gift to us. We support your call to all world leaders to support the communities most vulnerable to a changing climate and to come together to preserve our precious world for future generations.

    Your Holiness, in your words and deeds, you set a profound moral example. And in these gentle but firm reminders of our obligations to God and to one another, you are shaking us out of complacency. All of us may, at times, experience discomfort when we contemplate the distance between how we lead our daily lives and what we know to be true and right. But I believe such discomfort is a blessing, for it points to something better. You shake our conscience from slumber; you call on us to rejoice in Good News, and give us confidence that we can come together, in humility and service, and pursue a world that is more loving, more just, and more free. Here at home and around the world, may our generation heed your call to “never remain on the sidelines of this march of living hope!”

    For that great gift of hope, Holy Father, we thank you, and welcome you, with joy and gratitude, to the United States of America.

    Beast 1 worshipped Beast 2 and called him (Man) Holy Father 7 times. 6 of them “Holy Father”.

  34. DmCal 52,

    Actually, the verse says, Jesus speaking: “I have come in my Father’s name and you did not receive me. Another will come in his own name and him you will receive.”

    Address of His Holiness Pope Francis to the General Assembly of the United Nations
    Delivered in New York, on September 25, 2015
    By His Holiness Pope Francis
    Address Of His Holiness Pope Francis To The General Assembly
    Of The United Nations
    http://www.holyseemission.org/contents//statements/statements-56054736193b87.20279259.php
    delivered in New York on September 25, 2015

    The Name of Jesus Christ, of whom Francis claims to be the “vicar” of, was never mentioned one time in any way, shape or form
    “I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.” John 5:41,42 (KJV)
    Pope Francis says some amazing things, but he rarely says them in an amazing way. He speaks with a low, weak voice, mostly in Italian, and can be hard to follow even through the interpreter.
    Note: Jesus in the fifth chapter of John, is talking about the difference between the true representative of God on Earth, Himself, and the Satanically-produced counterfeit of the Antichrist and the False Prophet. In verse 43, Jesus utters these astounding, prophecy-packed words:
    “I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.” John 5:43 (KJV)
    He is ultimately referring to a time, far in the future, when someone would come claiming to represent God, but actually coming in his own name, with his own unGodly agenda. Now, listen to what Pope Francis said as he said these words on Rosh Hashanah, in front of a gathering together of nations of the world:

    Mr President,
    Ladies and Gentlemen,
    Thank you for your kind words. Once again, following a tradition by which I feel honored, the Secretary General of the United Nations has invited the Pope to address this distinguished assembly of nations. In my own name (John 5:43), and that of the entire Catholic community, I wish to express to you, Mr Ban Ki-moon, my heartfelt gratitude. I greet the Heads of State and Heads of Government present, as well as the ambassadors, diplomats and political and technical officials accompanying them, the personnel of the United Nations engaged in this 70th Session of the General Assembly, the personnel of the various programs and agencies of the United Nations family, and all those who, in one way or another, take part in this meeting. Through you, I also greet the citizens of all the nations represented in this hall. I thank you, each and all, for your efforts in the service of mankind.
    Note: Pope Francis said that “I come in my own name” and that of the “entire Catholic community”. Not as a representative of Jesus Christ, not as an ambassador of the Gospel, but Francis stated that he came in his own name, his own power, and that of his Roman church. Rome the place and people that killed Jesus on the cross. The same cross that Francis said “ended in failure.” The Name of Jesus Christ, of whom Francis claims to be the “vicar” of, was never mentioned one time in any way, shape or form. What on Earth could possibly possess him to say that he “comes in his own name”?

    What will you do DmCal52, if either the Pope or Obama is the Antichrist?

  35. DmCal52,

    More on Obama and the Pope.

    Many people have written about Obama and the darkness he exudes. I don’t really want to rehash it here but he is a central character in all of this so before I move on to more September madness let me lay out a few examples that point to Obama being a true contender for the title Antichrist. His name has 18 letters (6+6+6=18). He was born August 4th, 1961, the 216th day of the year (6x6x6=216). His political rise began in Chicago, Illinois, home of the zip code 60606. On November 8th, 2008, the day after the Illinois Senator (Obama) became president elect, the Illinois Pick 3 Lotto was 666. Gematria is a method of interpreting the Hebrew scriptures by computing the numerical value of words, based on those of their constituent letters. In English Gematria the name Barack adds up to 216 (B=12, A=6, R=108, A=6, C=18, K=66). Once again 6x6x6=216.

    And if you think that’s a bit creepy try this. Did Jesus refer to Obama as Satan? In Luke 10:18 Jesus said, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.” Jesus spoke Hebrew and the word for lightning in Hebrew is baraq.

    On September 23, 2015, President Obama will hold a meeting with Pope Francis at the white house. In the 12th century Saint Malachy, the Archbishop of Armagh, received a prophecy that there would be 112 more popes. Pope Francis is that 112th pope. In 1971, C. Alan Martin received a vision of 12 houses. Years later God showed him in a dream the meaning of the houses. They represented 12 remaining Presidents. The first house represented Truman. The 12th house is Obama. The end of both prophecy and vision was destruction and judgement.

  36. Hello jardalkal,

    Gematria numerology has been used to prove that Nero and Regan and a host of others as being the antichrist as well, so this nothing new under the sun. None of those things mean anything until someone actually establishes a seven year covenant with Israel, receives a fatal wound and recovers, sets up that abomination in the holy place and proclaims himself to be God, to name a few.

    After the election, Obama is going to fade into the background of history, just like all of the former presidents have. If Obama were the antichrist it would have been obvious by now.

    What are you going to do when Obama doesn’t pan out as being the man of lawlessness? What happens to your so-called witnesses above? And where will that leave the validity of the gematria code?

    All of these elements are just part of the conspiracy theories. If Obama was the antichrist, he would become more popular in the eyes of the world, not less.

    • DmCal52,

      So here are the Antichrists: The Pope, Obama, Putin, Prince William, Apostikane, Erdogan, Juan Carlos and a few others. We won’t know for sure until 2017.

      The ones most talk about in order are: Obama, The Pope, Erdogan, and Putin.

      • Jardalkal,

        The problem with those whom you have listed as the antichrist is that, this man that is coming will be very charismatic and the people will be in awe i.e. in amazement of him, as the scripture below demonstrates:

        “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”

        ” All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.”

        Those men in your list have been revealed and are known by the world and none of them fits the any of the criteria that can be garnered from just those two verses above, much less the rest of what is written regarding him. When this antichrist comes, he will fit that criteria from the time that he is revealed. What will you do when none of those men pan out as being the antichrist? What will that say about your calculations and your codes?

        I maintain that, whoever comes and makes that seven year covenant with Israel, allowing them to build their temple on the temple mount, he’s the one. The establishing of that seven year covenant is the starting point.

  37. DmCal52 who is quite S…………..d!!

    DmCal 52 who does not list the location of the scripture says:

    “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”

    ANTICHRIST OBAMA’S PICTURE BEFORE DEADLY WOUND BY A SWORD …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0cy21pGd0o

    ANTICHRIST OBAMA’S PICTURE BEFORE DEADLY WOUND BY A SWORD … The ANTICHRIST Obama Rises From The Mortal HEAD WOUND … The Truth Behind Obama’s Head Scar …

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed – The Politics Forums

    thepoliticsforums.com/threads/29608-Obama-Head-Scars-Revealed

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed … The Antichrist suffers from a fatal head-wound says the … finest details of Obama’s scar-tissue and defects. Obama-Antichrist-Mocks …

    What’s That Scar On Obama’s Head? | Fellowship of the Minds

    https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2011/04/08/what-are-those-scars

    What’s That Scar On Obama’s Head … From these pics of three individuals who have scars on their skull which resemble Obama’s scar, … and his deadly wound …

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed In New Video. Gov Website …

    beforeitsnews.com/obama-birthplace-controversy/2015/02/obama-head…

    Obama Head-Scars Revealed In New Video. Gov Website Delivers Clear Picture: Obama’s Scarred … The Antichrist suffers from a fatal head-wound says …

    Where Did Obama Get Those Nasty Head Scars? : Truth …

    truthfrequencyradio.com/where-did-obama-get-those-nasty-head-scars

    Where Did Obama Get Those Nasty Head Scars? Truth Frequency Radio Aug 13, … One of the characteristics is his “fatal head-wound” says the Bible. Obama’s skull …

    The Truth Behind Obama’s Head Scar Conspiracy FINALLY …

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy0VvIUi27A

    Finally the Mystery behind Obama’s head scar conspiracy is revealed from the messenger of the Lord. … FINALLY! Barack Obama Is The Antichrist!

    BREAKING: Confirmed, Barack Hussein Obama is the ANTICHRIST!!!

    http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2045364/pg1

    3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, … Recall Obama’s healed head scar. … Barack Hussein Obama is the ANTICHRIST!!!

    Urgent! Obamas Mystery Scar to Head! – Five Doves Inc

    http://www.fivedoves.com/letters/apr2011/j46.htm

    I just did some searching about Obama’s head scar and found … The fatal head-wound of the antichrist in the … 383/418/Urgent_Obamas_Mystery_Scar_to_Head.html …

    2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
    Deu 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

    I will beat these 2 verses into your head until you know them backwards and forwards.

  38. Hello jardalkal,

    You are assigning some passive fulfillment of the fatal wound that the beast will receive. This fatal wound is something that the whole world will be see and will be in awe of. Obama’s scar or whatever it is, is not even known by the world. The meaning behind receiving a mortal or fatal wound, is that it is something that is not survivable, which when this antichrist does survive it, it will be for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth in support of his proclaiming to be God. Nothing of this nature has happened with Obama. You need to get out of YouTube and all of the web-sites, because you have Obama on the brain.

    I guarantee you that the antichrist is not Obama.

    • Dear DmCal52,
      I do not have Obama on the brain. If I get out of You-tube and Websites, then I get out of the Bible and all of life and what is going on around me.
      For 23 years, I worked 20 plus hour days 364 days per year. Now because of you tube and websites, I have a hobby called the Bible. My passion is Eschatology. I have over 5000 pages on it. One thousand is at these two blogsites. Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com and Jardalkalataol.blogspot.com. I am a Bible researcher and a soon to be preacher. My ministry begins when chaos breaks out in the area I live in. At that time, the church goes underground in America.
      I was appointed by God himself back in 1981 through a God-dream. My dreams began in 1967 (a prophetic year and a year of Jubilee) and I have had over 40 plus dreams fulfilled. The next one is a global earthquake and should take place November 16th to 18th of 2016 or Passover Month or Tishrei of 2017.
      John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook.

      By the way, I guarantee you that you are a scoffer.

  39. Jardalkal,

    I am also one who studies scripture and was drawn to the study of end-time events from the beginning. You say that you are one who studies end-time events, which means that you should know the characteristics of the antichrist, that man of lawlessness, which is why I have been contending with you regarding Obama. You should know better than to be guessing at dates. And you should also know that the establishing of that seven year covenant is the primary way of identifying the revealing of the antichrist. Remember Walter Camping and all the rest of the time setters before him.

    You said:
    “I was appointed by God himself back in 1981 through a God-dream. My dreams began in 1967 (a prophetic year and a year of Jubilee) and I have had over 40 plus dreams fulfilled. The next one is a global earthquake and should take place November 16th to 18th of 2016 or Passover Month or Tishrei of 2017.
    John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook.

    By the way, I guarantee you that you are a scoffer.”

    So, when that global earthquake that you just said was a dream from God, does not take place at the time you specified, you know that would make you a false prophet, right? You are claiming something given to you by God and you have specified a time. The way that Israel was to tell if someone was a false prophet or not, was whether or not their prophesies were fulfilled.

    I am not a scoffer, but one who is zealous for the truth and accuracy of the word of God. In these last days there are many who claim to be in Christ, but have abandoned the truth. It is not just a matter of discerning right from wrong, but right from almost right. YouTube and the internet is not the place to be getting your scriptural information from. My advice would be to stick with scripture.

    • DmCal52,
      1656 2270, 2348/9 BCE 2435BC מבּוּל mabbûl; Flood Methuselah dies year of flood 969 years old; Noah 600 years old *

      Yom Kippur is when Nibiru in 2016 will affect the earth, with a global earthquake, fulfilled as in Revelation 6:12-17, as well as other OT scriptures. This global earthquake is actually an axial polar shift (the only explanation for why the stars will roll up as a scroll). This exact same event happened the day that the Great Deluge began, 3,600 years ago, when Nibiru passed through our solar system… which was also Yom Kippur, but it had not been decreed as such by YVWH yet, at the Exodus, when Moses was translated to Heaven to be with YVWH for the 40 days… remember, Moses’ face was so bright that the Israelites asked him to cover it, when he came back from Mount Sinai.

      In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. Bereshit, Genesis 7:11 (1649 years from the fall – Book of Jubilees, Paradise and the Fall iii: 17); Nibiru encounter “The Destroyer”. Isa 24:1, 19-20. Some accounts and teachers say this was at Passover and others say this was in October/November. Pole Shift. It caused a 23 degree tilt. The tetonic plates separated.
      Gen 8:4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. Aviv 17th 2347 (Wednesday–Day after First fruits.) http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/emails/Aviv17.html

      This tidbit of information, I came across in 2015. At that time, my line of thought was that the Day of the Lord would begin on Yom Kippur (Joel 2:15=Lev. 23:27-34). And it still follows that line of reasoning.
      Less than a week ago, somebody on the internet made the connection that the Day of the Lord can begin on the DAY that the Flood began using Daniel’s timeline of 1335 days. So I am looking into it as a possibility and so far 1947+62 shavuots=2009+1260 days +1335 days = Nov. 16-18, 2016 is the only one that fits it so far. The timeline for 2017 puts us to Kislev 20th, December 8, 2017. Timeline start 1948+62 Shavuots = 2010 7th Biblical Month event +1290 days to Passover event in Israel with a Trumpet blast out of the East on Passover day +1335 days does not fit even though 1260 days does fit the end day of Day of Trumpet sign in the Sun, Moon, and Stars.

    • DmCal52,

      Wh am I a Biblical Date Setter.
      1) God is the Biggest Date Setter of all time.

      2) Since you do not understand Day and Hour no man knoweth because that is the ones Christians use the most to say that we should not date set by, here is that information.

      Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away (Isa. 65:17, Rev. 21:1), but my words shall not pass away. (Mk 13:31; Lk 21:33; Mt 5:18)

      Hebrew Idiom
      An idiom is an expression, a term, or a phrase whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts, but refers instead to a figurative meaning that is known only through the conventional use of a specific language.
      http://www.ajewishbeliever.com/2012/07/hebrew-idioms.html

      Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Mk 13:32; Ac 1:6,7)
      When the days of the Messiah approach, even children will be able to discover secrets of wisdom, and through them be able to calculate the time of the end; then it will be revealed to all.’ ” (Zohar 1:117b-118a).
      Mk 13 note: In the Son’s humanity, Jesus did not know when the day or hour would be. During this time on earth, Yeshua voluntary waived some of His divine perogatives according to Ryrie Study Bible.
      1) This verse may refer to the return of His second coming in Matthew 24:31. If you notice the year is not mentioned, the season is not mentioned, the month is not mentioned. The year is a year of Jubilee. The next one is in 2017 (6003), then 2067 (6053), then 2117 (6103). The season is in the Fall based on Lev. 23:24ff. The month according to the Julian calendar is Tishrei or the seventh month biblically again based on Leviticus 23. The first of the month is called Rosh Codesh and it begins on the sliver of the new moon. In September of 2017, for example, it is on the 23rd or 24th. Since these days are shortened, then we have to add 2-3 days more. Just by guessing, we don’t know the day of the day. All we know is that it will be on the first sliver of the new moon in any given September. See notes Matt 24:31.
      Some people claim that Jesus was speaking only to people living in the first century of not knowing the day or hour, not to people living today.

      2) There is another interpretation to this verse and that refers to the end of the earth because of Matt 24:35 which Matt 24:36 follows. This month is Tishrei which is the 7th Biblical month in September/October which is tied to Leviticus 23:24ff which is called the Day of Trumpet. According to Torahcalendar.com, this will be in the year 3015. The earth began in the 7th month in 3986 BC according to Torahcalendar.com so it is fitting that it will end in the same month. The 7th month was the first month until 1441 or 1446 BC when the Exodus occurred in Exodus 12. Beginning in that year Abib/Nisan became the first month and it is in the spring in March/April and it begins on the first sliver of the new moon.

      3) Day and hour refers to the Day of Atonement for it is 25 hours long (i.e. one day plus one hour). Matthew 24:28

      4) Pentecost is also known as the Day and hour no man knoweth. Matth 24:32; Psalm 90:10

      5) Passover is day and hour no man knoweth. Matthew 24:15 1260 days to 1290 days this side of Day of Atonement Armageddon War.

      6) Because we by this time period have gone through the Trumpet and Bowl judgments, there may not be electricity, the sun will be 1/3rd gone, the moon, and stars will be 1/3rd gone, we have had 3 days of darkness, so Yeshua shall come as a thief in the night.
      According to the Jewish wedding, Yeshua\Jesus is in Heaven building His house while the bride on earth is preparing herself for the wedding. When the house is ready for the bride, the groom comes for her. (Matt 25:1-13). This will be on the Day of Trumpet (Lev 23:24). The story in Matt 25:1-13 clearly teaches watchfulness (v. 13); i.e., only those who are prepared for His coming will enter the kingdom.
      Leviticus 23 is connected to Leviticus 25:9-10 (Jubilee year) and especially verses 20-23. 2016-2017 is the 120th Jubilee, the 70th Jubilee, the 50th Jubilee year, and the 4oth Jubilee year of Jesus’s death.

      • DmCal52,

        Why does John be a date setter following God’s Timeline for 2017.
        Here is another 20 plus pages.

        Covenant cycle Matt 1:17 The Messiah came, and the promise was fulfilled in the forty-second generation from Abraham.
        There is 4000 years from Creation to Yeshua but only 2000 from Abraham to Yeshua. Hypothesis is there 14 generations x2 between first and second coming if a generation is 70 or 80 according to Ps 90:10. 70 generation x 14= 980 years. 80 generation x 14 is 1120 years. So if we use 2×980=1960 +70 (Temple destruction)=2030. 29 ce (Death of Christ) +1960=1989+33=2022. 27 CE (Ministry Start of Yeshua)+1960+33 (Death of Yeshua age)=2019. 27 CE+1960=1987. 1987 CE Sabbath year (Shmita שמיטה). 27 CE +1960+30 (Age of Yeshua at the start of His ministry) = 2017.
        http://www.rtforum.org/lt/lt13.html; Perry Stone on Sid Roth Tsunamis, Blood Moons and End of Times beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2015/05/blood-moons-and-end-time-prophecy-perry-stone-with-sid-roth-radio-interview-2468942.html; bibletime.com/theory/generation

        2017 shows up again. How odd.
        Battle of Jerusalem 1917 (Year of Jubilee)+100 generation=2017 (Year of Jubilee); 1947 Proclamation for Israel +70 generation=2017; Sixth Day War (Year of Jubilee) +50 generation=2017 (Year of Jubilee); 1947 BC (Abraham’s Birth)+2017=70 CE (Destruction of the Temple)+1947 (Abraham’s Birth/Proclamation of Israel)=2017.
        1517 CE Ottomon Turks capture Jerusalem; the Ottoman Empire exists for 400 more years until 1917.Ottoman During the reign of Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (1520-1566) the walls of the Old City of Jerusalem were rebuilt. Population of the Jewish community in Jerusalem increased. Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of the Wittenberg church on October 31,1517 which begins the German Protestant Reformation. 1517+400 generation=1917+100 generation = 2017 100 years is the limit of a generation found in the Bible (as defined by Abraham’s 4 generations of a total of 400 years (400 years divided by 4 generations = 100).
        What is so significant is that there is a high probability that this is the Second Coming and Armageddon because it fits the criteria of Lev. 25:8-10.
        More about 1948 and 1967.
        God’s plan was not thwarted when a 2520-Year Prophecy was fulfilled in May of 1948 or when another 2520-Year cycle was fulfilled in June of 1967. Presently, we are living at the very end of a 2520-Week, Biblical cycle. This cycle began the day Israel recaptured the city of Jerusalem on June 7, 1967 and culminates on September 23, 2015, which is The Day of Atonement, and even more incredibly, The Day of Jubilee. What are the mathematical odds of a Biblical cycle beginning and ending on such historic and significant days in both Israel’s modern history and ancient calendar? Coincidence is not a kosher word.
        There is another Biblical prophecy that will also be fulfilled, it relates to a period of time called the “time of Jacob’s Trouble” (Jeremiah 30:7). It’s a period of time as the Babylonian Talmud says, “In the seven-year cycle at the end of which the son of David will come…at the conclusion of the septennate (a period of seven years), the Son of David will come.” (Sanhedrin, 97a p.654)
        Or as Raphael Patai (Jewish historian who received his doctorate in Semitic Languages from the University of Budapest and University of Breslau) said, “The idea became entrenched that the coming of the Messiah will be preceded by greatly increased suffering…This will last for seven years. And then, unexpectedly, the Messiah will come. (The Messiah Texts, pp 95-96)
        This seven-year period is based upon God’s calendar (a 360-day year), and it can be more precisely labeled the 2520-Day Period. We have witnessed the 2520-Year prophecies fulfilled twice. The 2520-Week prophecy culminates this September 23, 2015. Is the period of 2520-Days next?
        Learn more of God’s calendar, for He is the “Perfect Numberer” (Daniel 8:13 -“Palmoni”) at http://www.twenty5twenty.net Shalom, Shalem…only with “The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6-7)
        2015-2017 is the 50th Jubilee, 70th Jubilee, and 120th Jubilee. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RC8vSm65skk

        • DmCAL52,

          More on 2017

          What do these years have in common? Abraham’s birth (1947 BCE) +2017 years = 70 CE Destruction of the Temple; Matt 24:1-2) + 1947 years = 2017.
          6th day war 1967+50 years = 2017. Battle of Jerusalem 1917+100 years = 2017. Israel became a nation in 1948 1 to 2 days prior to Pentecost (Matt 24:32; Psalm 90:10) but the proclamation went out in 1947+70 years = 2017. Judah ben Samuel Prophecy 1517-1917, 1917-1967, 1967-2017 The Messiah comes and Armageddon. Woman clothed with the Sun in 2017 (Day of Trumpet with Virgo and Leo). Giza Pyramid Lineup of 2017 (Day of Trumpet). August 21 (4th day event) Solar Eclipse over North America (Propheciesoftheendtimes.com) in 2017. 2017 minus generations 38, 40, 50, 70, 80, 100, and 120 line up to significant events with Israel.
          Miracle of the Sun (Oct. 13th, 1917) +100 years = 2017. (It was on the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles). Oct. 13th, 2016 is Day of Atonement and it ends on Day of Atonement 2017 with Armageddon. Could it be that the Day of the Lord begins on the Day of Atonement (Joel 2:14 or 15=Lev 23:27-34) with a global earthquake.

          4 views of September 23, 2017
          1) End of Humanity and Armageddon on the Day of Atonement (Rev 14:20ff; Rev 15 Day of Atonement Typeology; Rev 16/19 Armageddon)
          2) Beginning of the Day of the Lord which is a one year event according to Isaiah and covers both the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments and ends on the Day of Atonement with Armageddon.
          3) Mid point of the 7 year tribulation.
          4) Beginning of the 7 year Tribulation
          The problem I have with numbers 3 and 4 is that if the beginning heavenly sign begins in the 7th month such as 5 planets lining up in a row on the 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles in 2010, then the end sign 7 years later should be on the Day of Trumpet according to Revelation 12:1 and 11 –7th Trumpet and the only one between 2017 and 2100 + is the one on Sept. 23rd, 2017.

          Jardalkalatgmail.blogspot.com
          The above comments was only a partial of Feast Dates Introduction.

  40. Chargefox,
    I found out at 56 that I am autistic. I have always been a loaner all my life. I never was a person for groups shuch as churches. When I visit a church, I always stay in the outer ring. Jardalkal@aol.com for the full story. John Ashcraft, Albuquerque, NM on Facebook for the dream fulfilled portion.

  41. DmCal52,

    You should know better than to be guessing at dates

    Why does John love to be a date setter?
    Gen 1:14; Lk 21:25-26
    1) Noah’s Ark landed on Mount Ararat prior to Passover but the door of the ARK was opened on the day of PASSOVER.
    2) Jesus was conceived on DEc 15th, 4 BCE on a SABBATH on the first DAY of Chanukkah.
    3) Jesus was born on the Day of ATONEMENT or the first annual SABBATH of Feast of Tabernacles. Circumcised on the 8TH DAY of Feast of Tabernacles.
    4) Jesus baptized on a SABBTH in January or on the DAY of ATONEMENT according to a sign in the Sun, Moon, and Stars on that DAY of ATONEMENT.
    5) Jesus entered Jerusalem on a SABBATH on a beast.
    6) Jesus died on PASSOVER
    7) Jesus buried at the beginning of FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD
    8) Jesus rose on FEAST of FIRST FRUITS

    PENTECOST events

    King David was born and died on Pentecost. According to rabbinic tradition, Enoch was born and was raptured on Pentecost. The Church was born on Pentecost (Acts 2). Pentecost is known as “the festival without a date”—no man knows the day or hour! Jews believe that the “fruit of the trees” is judged on Pentecost. Hmm. The Judgment Seat of Christ? The Jews believe that on Pentecost the heavens open for a brief instant and that God answers prayer—perhaps in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! The Dispensation of Law occured on Pentecost. The Noahic Covenant was given on Pentecost. Ruth, a Gentile bride, was chosen by Boaz, a type of Christ, on PENTECOST, bringing this Gentile bride into the Messianic lineage! Pentecost is the day the Jews as they say, stay up all night to “decorate the bride!” Why?
    God married mankind on the first Pentecost in 1441 or 1446 BCE in a Shemitah year.
    1948 Israel became a nation on the Friday before Pentecost Sunday.
    2014 Cross/Staff in the corona of the Sun

    Day of Trumpet—The Rapture which can occur either on DAY of TRUMPET, Day of Atonement, PASSOVER, or Pentecost.

    Day of Atonement Marriage of Groom to the Bride and Armageddon.

    FEAST of TABERNACLES–First Annual Sabbath of Feast of Tabernacles is when the Messianic Kingdom begins.

    AS you notice DmCal 52, God follows HIS timeline of Leviticus 23 and you follow your GREGORIAN timeline of whenever it happens, it will happen which the lie si that you follow the Christian lie of Immenency of Christ lie.

    • Why John follows Leviticus 23 timeline with signs in the Sun, Moon, and Stars.

      Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs (Solar and Lunar Eclises; Cross in the corona of the sun in 2014 on Pentecost; blood moon tetrads, lightning coming from the Sun on Dec. 23 (Rosh Chodesh 10); March 20th Solar Eclipse on Abib 1; Lunar Eclipse on April 4th, 2015 =Joel 2:31), and for seasons (Lev. 23; Ps 104:19; I Thess 5:1) and for days ((Sabbaths, Rosh Chodesh (first sliver of the new moon), 7th day of Feast of Tabernacles, 4th day of the week), and years (Lev. 25 Shemitah and Jubilee years).
      Seasons of Lev. 23 is also called congregations and solemn assembly.
      Lets look at some heavenly events that have happened since 1995. Source: Feast Dates and Second Coming part 2.
      Now remember that the birth pains get stronger (increase) as the time of the birth approaches so watch for the increase.
      1) Comet Hale-bopp Passover 1997 Longest running comet 19 months.
      2) 2010 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles. 5 planets lined up in a row.
      3) 2011 Day of Trumpet Comet Elenin breaks up in Leo causing a Revelation 12:1-2 event in September on the first sliver of the new moon.
      4) 2013 Chanukkah/Thanksgiving Comet Ison perihelion (closest approach to the sun). The path through the constellations says Yeshua/Jesus is coming now.
      5)2014 Blood Moon Tetrads near Passover and Feast of Tabernacles; Solar Eclipse; Cross in the Corona of the Sun on Rabbinic Pentecost; Lighting from the Sun on Dec. 23 (Rosh Chodesh 10) on the first sliver of the new moon.
      6) 2015 Solar Eclipse on Abib 1/Nisan 1 Rosh Chodesh 1; Red blood moon on April 4th (Passover); June30/July1 Venus/Jupiter conjunction in Leo/christmas Star; August 17 Nibiru between Earth and Sun supposedly on Rosh Chodesh 6 and we are in its wake on Sept 26 on a Sabbath; Day of Trumpet Event in Israel with a double solar eclipse seen in Heaven; Day of Atonement with Obama becoming the Antichrist and the Pope becoming the False Prophet and the ushering in of the One World Religion and NWO (Rev 13 Beast System with Islam) with a blood moon on Feast of Tabernacles first annual Sabbath. Unscheduled Blood Moon over Galilee Sea. October 30th Sabbath

      2016) There has been 20-24 events so far on HIS days of: 4th day events, Sabbaths, Full Moons, New Moons, 7th Day of Feast of Tabernacles and 9th Month and 24th day events. This years events would fill up over 60 pages of information.

      • you are spamming my site. the comment list has nothing but you there.

        please slow down.

        notice no one else is coming here….that is because you are overloading the site with you comments

  42. Hi dmcal52,

    Thank you for your reply.
    Before addressing some of the particulars of your response, allow me to start with Amos 3:7.

    “Surely the Lord God WILL DO NOTHING but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.”
    (Note: Prophets above would also include Apostle’s and Disciple’s.)

    Now, though the meaning of that text appears to be self-evident, many don’t fully comprehend its depth and scope.
    What Amos 3:7. is stating is that “God’s Word” is entirely complete in itself.
    That from Genesis through to and including Revelation, everything regarding God’s Will and Plan for man has been expressed and contained within scripture. There is absolutely nothing left out, and everything in its entirety, down to the smallest of details, has been recorded within His Word.

    Though the above would be obviously be accurate, simply by what God states within the verse itself, how “in being true” are we able to hold the vastness of all that the above implies, “in one solitary hand?”

    The answer is; Because “God in His Glory is incomprehensibly proficient!”

    What this means then is, that “passages of verses” are also at times “polysemantic” in that they are not only expressing one truth or narrative on the surface of the text, but that the text itself, actually consists of a “duality or multiplicity of meanings”, and can also be referencing completely different individuals, groups or scenarios, than what the text you may be reading is essentially expressing itself.

    This “fact” has already been demonstrated within the New Testament “countless times”, where Jesus, Apostle’s and Disciple’s “cull out verses” from the Old Testament text, that were completely applicable to the narrative in which they were utilized initially, and reapply “these exact same verses” to express and reveal a new, and previously unrealized Biblical Truth.

    As well, this “definition” of Amos 3:7., would be supported by Hosea 12:10., where God says that He has also provided us with “similitudes or examples”, which only further confirms the above aspect of “duality and multiplicity of meanings”.

    For just one illustration of this, I offer “Abraham and Isaac” within Genesis 22:1-19., (though being an actual historical account), it is also comprised of “duality of meaning” for we as followers of Jesus recognize these passages as being a “foreshadowing” of “God providing the sacrifice of Jesus”.

    So, in keeping Amos 3:7., and the above in mind, I’ll begin addressing your response in sequence.
    Unfortunately, by also “quoting you”, this reply will be rather lengthy.

    First you say;
    “I believe that you mistaken in your understanding regarding the letters to the churches. Though these were letters to each specific church, the information contained within them is for every believer and all churches throughout the entire church period. For at the end of each of the letters it says, “Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

    My reply;
    “Though I don’t believe that I provided you with enough specificity in respects to the “letters to the churches” for you to determine what I may, or may not believe, I will say that “I AGREE that these letters contain information that is pertinent, for all believers throughout the entire church period.”

    For example, the promise of Jesus giving the overcomer a white stone with a new name written on it found in the letter to the church of Pergamum, is also a promise to the other six types of churches and every overcoming believer throughout the entire church period. All of the promises to the overcomer can be applied to every believer throughout the entire church period. That said, the promise to those who endure patiently to keep them out of the hour of trial, is not only to the overcomers of the church of Philadelphia, but to all believers throughout the entire church period who endure patiently.

    My reply;
    “I would just like for you to pay attention to what you have written above, particularly the aspect of each and every reward, being dependant upon whether Jesus would determine, (as Judge) if an individual was an “Overcomer” or not.”

    Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial. Any believer who belonged to the actual church of Laodicea, as well as believers throughout the entire church period that fit that church type and who overcome, will also be kept from that hour of trial. Those letters to the seven churches are also to all churches and individual believers throughout the entire church period.

    My reply;
    “What Biblical evidence can you provide to substantiate that “Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true?”
    (Please see my next reply.)

    Likewise, whatever the promise is for the overcomer, it is the opposite for those who do not overcome. Example: He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death vs. He who does not overcome will be hurt by the second death. The bottom line is that, any believer who is an overcomer, regardless of church type, will receive the promises given to each church.”

    My reply;
    “Again, notice how much “rewards” are dependant upon whether Jesus determines an individual to be an “Overcomer” or not.
    Overcomers will receive rewards, and those that won’t be determined to be Overcomers, will not.
    In “that” we agree.

    Now though YOU say above, “Regarding what you said about Laodicea not being “kept from the hour of trial” is not true. It is only those who do not overcome within that church that will not be kept from that hour of trial” that’s NOT what JESUS says!

    Let’s examine those “letters to the Churches” with a little more scrutiny.

    In the letter to the Church of Ephesus, JESUS says the following warning in 2:4,5., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and REPENT, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou REPENT.”

    This warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.
    He of course is, “our First Love”.
    I will leave it up to you to interpret what this is saying, because it is not relevant to the point that I’m wishing to make at this time.

    In the letter to the Church of Smyrna, JESUS offers a different type of warning in 2:10.;
    “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.
    We must all be faithful and be willing to die for Jesus, no matter when or where.

    In the letter to the Church of Pergamos, JESUS says the following warning in 2:14-16., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. REPENT; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    In the letter to the Church of Thyatira, JESUS says the following warning in 2:20-22., where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they REPENT of their deeds.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    In the letter to the Church of Sardis, JESUS says the following warning in 3:1-3, where He commands these individuals to change what they are doing WRONG and REPENT;
    “And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”

    Again, this warning would have relevance to all who follow Jesus.

    So within Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira and Sardis we have JESUS saying that some individuals aren’t conducting themselves correctly and need to repent.
    Where if they didn’t change their ways and REPENT, He WOULDN’T determine or consider them to be “Overcomers”.

    Yet at the same time, Jesus praises other individuals, within 2:2,3., (Ephesus), 2:9., (Smyrna), 2:13., (Pergamos), 2:19. and 24,25., (Thyatira) & 3:4. (Sardis).
    Where, if they continued in their praise worthy conduct He WOULD determine and consider them to be “Overcomers”.
    So, by what Jesus says, we have “those” that are approved of by Him and those that still need to repent.
    Those that would be determined to be Overcomers and those that wouldn’t.

    Now we come to the Church of Philadelphia, and what JESUS SAYS regarding this Church.
    NOT ONCE is there any mention for the need to REPENT to any individual. Jesus praises each and every member of this particular Church.
    Jesus has set before each member of this Church the reward of an “open door”, because each and every member has kept His word, and not denied His name. Jesus utilizes the word “agapaō” when He refers to these individuals, (which is a far cry from “phileō”).

    Because He is so pleased with the conduct of these individuals and their demonstration of their faith, having kept the word of His patience, Jesus tells them that He will will “keep all of them from the hour or time of the temptation, (or testing)” which is to come upon the whole world as a trial. Another reward for just these members.

    Jesus tells them that He is coming shortly, and for them to “hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.”
    This would mean that Jesus has already given each member a crown, and if they “hold fast” or “continue” in what they have already demonstrated to Him, then no man will deter Him from presenting that reward to them.

    The Church of Philadelphia is comprised solely of “beloved” Overcomers, with access to the “open door and escaping the Temptation and Trial.”

    Jesus will grant them the opportunity to eat from the tree of life, (Rev. 2:7.).
    They will receive the “crown of life” and will “not be harmed by the second death”. (Rev. 2:10,11.).

    Jesus will grant them the opportunity to eat of the “hidden manna” (the concealed and kept secret nourishment), and will give them a white stone with a new name written upon it which no man knows except for the one that receives it, (Rev. 2:17.).

    Jesus will give them “power over nations”, just as the Father has given that power to Him, and they shall rule together, and receive the morning star, (Rev 2:26-28.).

    The members of the Church of Philadelphia will walk with Jesus in white garments, being determined to be Overcomers, and Jesus Won’t “blot” out their name from the “book of life”, but will instead proclaim their name before Father God and His angels, (Rev. 3:4,5.).

    Jesus will make them pillars in God’s Temple, and He will write the Name of God upon them, as well as His new Name, and the Name of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 3:12).

    Now we come to the Church of Laodicea, where JESUS SAYS, each and every member is the antithesis to the members of the Church of Philadelphia, and have NOT been determined as being “Overcomers”.

    Jesus says that because all of the members of this Church are neither hot or cold, He is going to spit them out of His mouth.

    Jesus says that all of the members of this Church are “wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked”.

    Jesus then advises them to “buy gold from Him, gold that has been purified by fire, (by Testing and Trial) then they will be rich, and will be able to buy white garments from Him, so they will not be ashamed of their nakedness, and be able to also buy ointment for their eyes so they will be able to see”.

    Jesus says that He REBUKES (corrects) and CHASTENS (disciplines) everyone that He loves, (again phileō rather than agapaō), and since the members of the Church of Philadelphia are NOT wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, and have therefore been spared from the “hour or time of the temptation”, one should be able to reasonably conclude, that since Jesus has Not determined these members of the Church of Laodicea as being Overcomers, but instead calls them wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked, His correcting and discipline of fire, would consist of subjecting these individuals to the “hour or time of the temptation”, which in sequence as written, would be HIS SEALS.

    Do you understand why I started with the explanation of Amos 3:7.?

    1 Peter 4:17.;
    “For the time is come that JUDGEMENT MUST BEGIN at the house of God: and if it first BEGIN at US, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

    2 Timothy 4:1.;
    “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall JUDGE the quick and the dead at His APPEARING and his kingdom;”

    2 Timothy 4:8.;
    “Henceforth there is laid up for me a “crown of righteousness”, which the Lord, the righteous JUDGE, shall give me at THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto ALL THEM also that love His APPEARING.”

    Above Peter says that the “JUDGEMENT” will begin first with the “CHURCH”, and Paul says, that Jesus will make this “JUDGEMENT” when HE APPEARS, which by 1 Corinthians 15:52., will all happen in a twinkling of an eye.

    If one takes into consideration the depth and scope of Amos 3:7., THAT GOD WILL DO NOTHING until He reveals His plans to His servants the prophets, or Apostle’s, then where is the above JUDGMENT recorded within scripture?

    If Revelation 4:1. is signifying the Rapture, (the First Resurrection), then it must be recorded prior to that verse, and the only passages that could possibly fulfill that criteria are Revelation 2:1. through 3:22..

    Where if that is indeed the case, then those members of the Church of Philadelphia are as Jesus Says, the ONLY ONES that are allowed through that “open door” and everybody else is subjected to the “Hour of Testing or Temptation”.

    The above more or less addresses the rest of your last replies, so I’ll simply sign off here.
    And though I could provide you with a substantial amount of evidence that is foreshadowed within the Old Covenant regarding this, and “two resurrections” for those that believe in, and have faith in Jesus, (particularly what the “BUY” in Matthew 25:9,10. and Revelation 3:18. is signifying), I suspect that you would simply say that this is wrong too.

    We obviously both have faith and love Jesus, and we’ll just have to wait and see how this all unfolds.

  43. Hi dmcal52,

    What I was trying to accomplish in my last response above, was to demonstrate as to how God in His Glory is so incomprehensibly proficient, and how He utilizes “duality and multiplicity of meaning” within His Word.

    I had hoped by what I had provided above, that you would recognize, (by what JESUS SAYS within the “letters to the Church’s”, ) that there are “four” distinctly different Church’s.

    1) Smyrna is distinct in itself, in that it’s message would be directed to all Overcomers that Father God has chosen to demonstrate their faith, by being prepared and willing to die for Jesus as He had died for us. And this message is applicable to the past, present and future.

    2) Ephesus, Pergamos and Thyatira are comprised of both Overcomers and those that are NOT Overcomers.

    3) The Church of Philadelphia is comprised of ONLY Overcomers.

    4) The Church of Laodicea is comprised of those that are NOT Overcomers.

    In doing so I had also hoped, that by taking into consideration Amos 3:7. and the fact that “God cannot lie”, then the “judgment” of the Church’s must be recorded somewhere. And that since by Hosea 12:10., God says that He has provided us with “similitudes or examples”, (where the New Testament is composed by the very same Author), He is in no way obligated to us, to place that recording of “expressing what He is going to do through an Apostle” under the heading of “Judgment of the Church’s”, and that He could have expressed this “judgement” in a variety of different ways.

    I had also hoped, that by bringing up the aspect of “duality and multiplicity of meaning” in scripture, that this might assist in clarifying a distinction between the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus” and the “Wrath (or righteous judgement) of Father God, where verses such as….

    Romans 5:9,10.;
    “Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”

    …. express the “duality and multiplicity of meaning” by the following;

    1) Like the Church of Philadelphia, being saved from the “Trial and Time of Testing” the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus” which He clearly says the He is going to perform to the Church of Laodicea in Revelation 3:19. (see Luke 21:36.)

    2) Also in having being saved from the above, they would likewise be saved from the “Wrath (or righteous judgement) of Father God.

    However, I’m not sure if I accomplished any of the above.

    So, in leaving that discussion by the wayside, I have a proposal or challenge for you, (or anybody else that might be reading this), regarding the depth and “how much” God utilizes “duality and multiplicity of meaning” within scripture.

    If you believe that Genesis 22:1-19., and “Abraham being willing to offer up Isaac” is also a symbolic foreshadowing of “God offering up Jesus as our sacrifice”, (which though we aren’t provide with any specificity regarding time frame, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least, if all of this didn’t happen on what would end up in the future as being Nissan 14th. or Passover), “who” do you think “Abram” is “symbolically foreshadowing” and what is the “duality of meaning” of Genesis 12:1, through 13:18.?

    • It’s sort of a shame that everybody is arguing with each other on the “End is Near” page, and that probably no one will read the below.
      It may just have some God inspired truth to it.
      Nevertheless I will post it any way’s.

      I don’t believe that any scripture that has being provided by God, is done so without intention or purpose.
      Above I had asked, ““who” do you think “Abram” is “symbolically foreshadowing” and what is the “duality of meaning” of Genesis 12:1, through 13:18.?”

      In taking into account both Amos 3:7., and Hosea 12:10., I believe that God is symbolically foreshadowing “ethnic Israel” through ABRAM within the chapters of Genesis 12 and 13.
      Now that isn’t as preposterous as it may sound, and to briefly support that last statement, I offer the following parallels.

      ABRAM left his homeland of Ur with all of his family and possessions and dwelt in Haran.

      JACOB, (Israel), left Beersheba with all of his family and possessions and dwelt in Egypt.

      ABRAM was called out of Haran by God, and Abram with all of his family and possessions, made the exodus to Canaan. Where during that journey Abram went to a mountain, and then built an altar, before continuing on his long journey.

      ISRAEL was called out of Egypt by God, and the family of Israel with all their possessions, made the exodus to Canaan. Where during that journey Israel went to a mountain and then built an altar, before continuing on their long journey.

      DUE to there being a famine in the land, ABRAM had moved to Egypt, where while there, Sarai was held in bondage by Pharaoh. Which because of that, God caused plagues to come upon Pharaoh and all of his house. Where when Sarai was released, and ABRAM and all of his family and servants left, they left very rich, with livestock, silver and gold.

      DUE to there being a famine in the land, ISRAEL had moved to Egypt, where while there, Israel was held in bondage by Pharaoh. Which because of that, God caused plagues to come upon Pharaoh and all of his house. Where when ISRAEL was released and left, they left very rich, with servants, livestock, silver and gold.

      ABRAM was told by YHVH, to walk through the length and breadth of the land, northward, southward, eastward, and westward, (FOUR).

      ISRAEL was told by YHVH to walk through the wilderness of the land, which lasted for FORTY years.

      Now if this is indeed, Father God utilizing ABRAM as an “example and a symbolic foreshadowing” of ethnic ISRAEL, then what “specifically” had to occur BEFORE Abram, (or ethnic Israel) could then be declared to be “RIGHTEOUS, or tsĕdaqah” before a Holy Father God?

      Here’s a hint, WHO appears next in chapter 14 as a symbolical foreshadowing, and what then would God be expressing regarding Righteousness?

      • gm

        Melchizedek king of Salem,who appeared after the defeat of Sodom and Gommorah

        S& G has to be defeated in our own lives for messiah to come

        see, i read the posts 🙂

        • Hi Marianne,

          Well at least someone there is😉.

          Though this was more or less directed to dmcal52, with the hopes of demonstrating HOW “multifaceted in meaning” God’s Word can be, it is also for all who sincerely seek the Lord. As well, It testifies to the validity of the “definition” that I have provided above for Amos 3:7..

          On the surface of the surface of the text, the narrative within those chapters are an historical account that describe Abram’s first contact, and early relationship with Father God.

          Yet at the very same time, like “Abraham being willing to offer up Isaac” being a symbolic foreshadowing of “Father God offering His Son”, the text is polysemantic, where Father God is expressing man’s desperate necessity for Divine Intervention and for Jesus, to have any hope of attaining a state or position of “God’s RIGHTEOUSNESS” before HIM.

          “YES” the answer to my question is “Melchizedek”, or more specifically, WHO He symbolically represents.

          “Melchizedek King of Salem” is a symbolic foreshadowing of JESUS, (Psalm 110:1-4. & Hebrews 6:20.) and the “bread and wine” would also be a foreshadowing of, Matthew 26:26-28., Mark 14:22-25., Luke 22:17-20. and 1 Corinthians 11:24,25..

          However there is more that can be gleaned from these text.
          Let’s meticulously examine what is recorded within those chapters, (keeping in mind that though Abram is symbolically foreshadowing ethnic Israel here, he is instead completely obedient to the LORD YHVH.)

          So, from what we know from Scripture, Abram both “heard and obeyed” the LORD (YHVH), when he “left his country, his kindred, and his father’s house” and departed out of Haran, and headed into the land of Canaan, (Gen. 12:1-5.).

          Now, Abram would have obviously had “faith and believed” in what he was told to do by God, or he wouldn’t have “gathered everybody and all of his belongings” and left Haran in the first place, (Hebrews 11:8.).
          However, though Abram had faith and belief, and had obeyed the LORD (YHVH) by doing this, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          We also know from Scripture, that the LORD (YHVH) appeared to Abram while in Canaan and said to him the FIRST time, in Gen. 12:7., “Unto thy seed will I give this land.”
          And I’m sure that Abram had faith and belief in what God had said to him then also. Whether he fully understood what it meant, can’t be said “one way or the other” with any certainty. But Abram did build an altar.
          Yet though Abram had faith and belief and had built an altar to the LORD (YHVH), the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          In Gen. 12:8., Abram then moved again to a mountain, and built a second altar and called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH), who he had faith and belief in.
          And though Abram had faith and belief , and had built a SECOND altar, and “called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH)”, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          Then Abram went to Egypt. (Gen. 12:10-20.)

          In Gen. 13:4., when Abram had returned to the altar by the mountain from his journey into Egypt, Abram called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH) who he had faith and belief in again.

          And though Abram had faith and belief, and had “called on the Name of the LORD (YHVH) again”, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          After both Lot and Abram had decided to separate, and Lot had made his decision to move to the plain of Jordan, and Abram was now going to reside in Canaan, the LORD (YHVH) then expanded the SECOND time upon what He had said previously to Abram in Gen. 12:7., within Gen. 13:14-17., by saying;

          “Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”

          So again, (whether he fully understood what it all meant), Abram had faith and believed the LORD (YHVH) and also obeyed when he was told to “Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it”, for Abram “removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron”, where Abram, “built there an altar unto the LORD”, (Gen. 13:18.).

          Yet, though Abram had faith and believed the LORD (YHVH) and also obeyed, and had built a THIRD altar, the LORD (YHVH) did NOT declare Abram to be righteous.

          Then we have “Melchizedek King of Salem” making His appearance upon the scene.
          Where clearly it was only after Abram had built the THIRD altar, (where “three” signifies, and references Jesus, and only after Jesus had made His appearance in the personage of Melchizedek King of Salem, and “blessed” Abram), that he could THEN be declared to be righteous.

          Now with Father God being so incomprehensibly proficient, we can only imagine as to how multifaceted all of the above may be in respects to symbolically referencing and foreshadowing other things, above and beyond that, of merely being an historical account.

          However, regarding ethnic Israel, (further to the above parallel’s that I had provided above in my previous post), we do have the following;

          When taking into account that Abram had built THREE altars, within the verses of 12:7,8., and 13:18., and correlate those with the THREE times that Israel was taken into bondage to Babylon,
          [i.e., The first took place in the 4th year of King Jehoiakim which was the 1st year of the of king Nebuchadnezzar,(Jeremiah 25:1. & 2 Chronicles 36:5-7.).
          The second took place in the 7th. and 8th. years of king Nebuchadnezzar, (Jeremiah 52:28. & 2 Kings 24:8-14.).
          And the third in the 19th year of king Nebuchadnezzar, (2 Kings 25:8-11.)]…..
          “Then Egypt for Abram, “represents and foreshadows” the captivity in Babylon for ethnic Israel.”
          Which all occurred before the first coming, (symbolically foreshadowed by Melchizedek) and the birth of God in the flesh as Jesus.

          The text would also do more than suggest, that though Abram fulfilled and obeyed each and every request (Commandment) from Father God, the righteousness that he would would have obtained by that fulfillment, was NOT sufficient enough to be declared “RIGHTEOUS” in God the Fathers eye’s.
          That Divine Intervention must be taken, and “God’s Righteousness” must be granted by being blessed by Melchizedek, or by Jesus at a later date.
          This therefore would mean, that though ethnic Israel was unable to fulfill the Mosaic Law, even if they could have, they would have still ended up falling short and “missing the mark” by presenting themselves before a Holy God with “their own righteousness” as opposed to “God’s Righteousness”.

          In respects to Jesus, the above also reveals something else;
          By taking into consideration that these altars that Abram built, also represent and foreshadow the Temples in Jerusalem, we find another significant detail.
          Having THREE altars, symbolically represents Solomon’s Temple, the rebuilding of the Temple after the captivity in Babylon, and the new construction by that of king Herod. Which also all occurred before the first coming , (symbolically foreshadowed by Melchizedek) and the birth of God in the flesh as Jesus.

          This then reveals something quite amazing, for it pin-points exactly, within a time span consisting of only 50 years, to when Jesus would actually be born as the Messiah, (see, Matthew 2:1., and John 2:20.) which would be one, of many other instances, where the scope and depth of Amos 3:7. is fulfilled.

          It was my hope that dmcal52 would become more open to the vastness of what God is comprised of, and realize that His Word is not as linear and as one dimensional as his current theology, (in my opinion), appears to be. That we probably only understand a small fraction of this vastness, (what God through His Spirit has chosen to reveal to anyone of us) and that this is why “opinions” vary so greatly.

          Any way’s, there is so much more that we are provided with in these chapters and the Book of Genesis, that it boggles my mind.
          There is so much more that I could provide regarding the above.

          Do you know if anyone here has been lead to research the significance that God holds to “First and Seconds” there?
          Not only in respects to Covenants, but to how they are significant in respects to individuals, or groups of individuals as well?

          How God’s blessings are provided or bestowed, (as a foreshadowing) far more upon those that are “Second Born” rather than upon the “Firstborn”.
          IE; Cain and Able, Ishmael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, Israel, (Exodus 4:22.) and Jesus (John 1:18., 3:16. & 18. and 1 John 4:9.) and “why” both “Abram to Abraham” and “Jacob to Israel” took place?

          For though God does say within Deuteronomy 21:15,16.;

          “If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the firstborn son be hers that was hated: Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:”

          He also says in Ecclesiastes 4:15.;

          “I considered all the living which walk under the sun, with the SECOND child that shall stand up in his stead.”

          Though the above may appear to be contradictory and paradoxical, it isn’t when one takes into account that Deuteronomy 21:15,16., wouldn’t apply to those “firstborn” (like Esau, Malachi 1:3., Romans 9:13.) that “disqualify themselves” from that inheritance.

          It is when we are “born of the Spirit” that we become a “Second Born” as a “New Creation”.

          God Bless.

  44. Actually, I think that I’ll stay on tangent and comment on the “Two Resurrections” of believers in Jesus, that are foreshadowed in the Old Testament first.

    I have already been lead to do my own study on “firstborns and second born” and it is so complicated that it’s very difficult to articulate, but it is fascinating.

    Sorry about the mistake and repetition with “On the surface of the surface of the text” in the 2nd. paragraph above.

    God Bless

  45. P.S. Thank you for the above compliment, but though I may personally have an aptitude to look outside the “9 dots”, I don’t attribute anything that I may say to having any bearing on anything to do with my personal attributes.

    I don’t study scripture with the motivation to prove what I may or may not believe.
    Instead I ask God to show me what He wishes to reveal, where when He chooses to, more often than not, I am left dumfounded with the realization that what I now may understand was provided by a realm that has nothing whatsoever to do with my intellectual capacity.

    But it is then that I have to distinguish whether or not that “thought” is indeed God’s truth, by seeing if a contradiction to that “thought” presents itself within His Word. If I find one, then it was simply a carnal idea.
    If I can’t, then I hold it as a truth until it can been proven otherwise through scripture.

    Where I see many problems arise, is not because of our “desire” to seek God’s truth, but in our “nature” and how we seek that truth.

    To a certain extent, the Holy Spirit is limited by what we choose to believe.
    Since we all possess the “knowledge of good and evil” we are in essence, like gods, (Genesis 3:5., 3:22., Psalms 82:6. & John 10:34,35.).

    However in being flesh, we don’t have the capacity to possess the “knowledge of good and evil”, and remain innocent or HOLY like God, because Father God is Spirit, (John 4:24.).

    And because by nature, “our” flesh “fights against” the Spirit, what we happen to believe as gods, can then impede the Spirit from providing revelation in respects to God’s truth.
    (see Galatians 5:17., where what has been translated into the English “lusteth or lusts” is derived from the Greek “ἐπιθυμεῖ κατὰ”, transliterated as “epithymeō kata” and can simply be defined as “sets its desire against”.)

    Therefore, though an individual may believe what is in actuality an error in interpretation, if they have committed that belief to be a truth within their heart and mind, that conviction in their flesh, obstructs the opportunity for the Spirit to correct that error.

    Likewise, if someone doesn’t believe in their heart or mind, that scripture goes far beyond what they can understand on the surface of the text, and instead only believes what they can understand solely on a literal and intellectual level, they simply interpret the majority of scripture carnally, and aren’t receptive to any other potential spiritual possibilities.

    Though they may indeed love Jesus, if they have placed the totality of what God is comprised of, within the parameters of what their personal level of comprehension and beliefs consist of, (which then grieves and quenches the Spirit), then they have literally placed God within the confines of their own limited and inadequate box, and have in essence, become their own stumblingstone in respects to receiving revelation from the Spirit.
    We are finite, God isn’t, and therefore neither is His Living Supernatural Word.

    Nevertheless, “Thank You”.

    I will try to compile the foreshadowing of the “two resurrections” as concisely as possible, and post it here at a later date.

    • ok that is fine. no opinion has to be presented as “fact”

      we are in a lifelong process of having things revealed to us, and we seek to grow and understand as we go

      this whole blog is “my opinion” as I think through different concepts presented by the Word.

      there are times I change my opinion as time goes on…

      it is all part of the seeking process, so even if there is error, it is still good 🙂

  46. Hi Marianne,

    After receiving your last reply, would you mind clarifying something for me?
    I would agree that “we are in a lifelong process of having things revealed to us, and we seek to grow and understand as we go”.

    And I hope that you are also saying, “that opinions or thoughts” that are presented should be “heard and considered”, (Proverbs 18:3., Acts 17:11.), and then by being Berean’s, we are to “prove and test” these “thoughts or opinions” through scripture, (1 Thessalonians 5:21.) to determine whether they are “error” or “truth”. And that, it is the “hope and objective” of this site, to establish the “difference” between the two.

    If the above is another way of expressing what you were saying….. then I would like to present a “fact”, in which you as a Berean can then verify .

    (It’s amusing, because I was going concentrate on providing the foreshadowing information recorded within the Old Testament, regarding the “two resurrections” for those that have faith and belief in Jesus, but apparently the following is to be provided first.)

    Previously above I had mentioned that God had led me to do a study on “primogeniture”.
    Though I was in the process of conducting research on an entirely different topic at the time, in becoming aware over the years as how to everything is so interconnected, and while I had no idea as to what it would reveal, I followed the direction of the silently whispered voice.

    This study not only provided further information that was germane to my initial topic, but it also provided me with a far greater understanding as to “why and how” God’s Word is composed as it is.

    Any way’s, while looking over your exhaustive menu for anything that was relevant to the topic of “first and second’s”, I came across a page with the heading, “Why Mohammed was not the Comforter Promised by Jesus”, where I believe, (though I suspect that it would have proved to be quite contentious) a better question to address the above would have been, “Is Allah the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”.

    Consider the following;
    During the process of that study I was directed to do, it of course took me back to the “multifaceted meanings” of what God had Moses scribe in the very beginning, as per Isaiah 46:9,10.
    And though I am more than willing to provide supplementary Biblical evidence to verify the following in more detail at a later date, I will simply present the proceeding to be considered as “fact”.

    As a “similitude and example”, (if Genesis 2:23,24., is understood in the context by what is expressed by Paul in Ephesians 5:25-33.) then “Adam was a “type” of Messiah” and a “foreshadowing” of Father God providing His Son, to take upon Himself the “sins that were born by others”.

    (Though there are even more meanings that are associated to the following;)
    As a “similitude and example”, “Cain” symbolically represents ethnic Israel, (providing a sacrifice that was not sufficient and therefore not received) and “Able” symbolically represents “Jesus” (providing a sacrifice that was sufficient and therefore was received) and as well, “Seth” symbolically represents “Jesus” when He returns, and it is all a “foreshadowing” of Father God providing His Son.

    As a “similitude and example”, “Abram” (as explained previously above) also symbolically represents ethnic Israel, where “Melchizedek King of Salem”, symbolically represents “Jesus” and Father God providing His Son.

    As a “similitude and example”, “Abraham” is a “type” of God the Father, and “Isaac” is a “type” of “Jesus” and Genesis 22:1-19., is a foreshadowing of Father God providing His Son.

    Then there was Jacob, Joseph, and Moses, who all in their own right as individuals, symbolically represent and foreshadow a “type” of Messiah and Father God providing His Son.
    Not to mention Joshua, and the plethora of others that followed, that foreshadow a “type” of Messiah and Father God providing His Son.
    Then there is “Passover”etc., etc., and the numerous other symbolic events that foreshadow Father God providing His Son.

    So, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, has provided more than ample evidence that He will indeed provide man with His Son.

    What does “Allah” say in the Qur’an?

    Surah 4:171.;
    “O People of the Scripture! (referring to Christian’s.)
    Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth.
    The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him.
    So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not “Three” – Cease! (it is) better for you! – Allah is only One Allah.
    Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He SHOULD HAVE A SON.
    His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.”

    Surah 17:111.;
    “Say: “Praise be to Allah, WHO BEGETS NO SON, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!” (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!”
    Say: “Those who invent a lie against Allah will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”

    Surah 19:88-92.;
    “THEY SAY: (referring to Christian’s and the “people of the book”)
    “(Allah) Most Gracious has BEGOTTEN A SON!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
    At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, THAT THEY SHOULD INVOKE A SON for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He SHOULD BEGET A SON.”

    And what does John say in 2 John 1:7.?
    “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who CONFESS NOT THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

    The aspect of Jesus being born is not denied by Allah, (he even refers to Him as being the Messiah (Annointed One) himself in surah 4:171).
    However, what John is referring to specifically regarding “Jesus coming in the flesh”, can be understood with more clarity by what John records elsewhere.
    John 1:1. That Jesus WAS and IS God.
    John 1:18., 3:16., 3:18., and 1 John 4:9. That Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Therefore the question of “Why Mohammed was not the Comforter Promised by Jesus” is answered by the “fact” that by Allah stating that he never had a son, he is confessing that he is NOT the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but a counterfeit imposter.

    • GM

      I agree with your points

      Islam thinks in the flesh, so assumes god would have to use a wife, have sex, and produce a son.

      this is proof enough that Islam cannot be a religion of spirit, but of flesh only, and they cannot imagine a “son” that is spirit like the “father”

      the god of abraham is spirit not flesh

      this to me is actually a different topic than the one on muhammed

      since Jesus also called himself the son of God, the muslims would have to consider Jesus a liar, and not worthy to be called a prophet.

      also another analogy of ethnic/ messiah is in Isaiah

      chapters 40+ call Israel the servant, but it seems to fail

      chapters 50+ describe a perfect servant, who succeeds where Israel fails

      • Hi Marianne,

        Yes, I am aware of all of the chapters in Isaiah regarding the “servant”, (ethnic Israel) and “Servant”, (Jesus) and the respective failure and Victory.

        Unless an individual is being “called” by Father God, those of ethnic Israel (being “firstborn” (Exodus 4:22.) and not being born of the Spirit, or “second born” no matter what their ethnicity) are unable to differentiate between the two, and take the word “servant” in both instances, as a term being solely associated to them as a people.

        However, as I said above, Father God has foreshadowed this millennia upon millennia ago with Cain, as He also does again with another figure.

        Tell me, you believe and understand that “Abraham” was a “type” of “God the Father” within Genesis 22:1-19. – correct?
        And that “Isaac” was a “type” of “Jesus” within those same passages – right?

        It’s not merely coincidence that in speaking to Abraham, Father God utilizes the Hebrew verb “אָהַב”, transliterated as “’ahab” and meaning “Love” for the very first time in scripture when referring to Isaac in Genesis 22:2..

        Nor is it coincidence that in God the Fathers eyes, (though “Ishmael” was “firstborn”), “Isaac” was considered to be the only “true and legitimate son”, being the Son that He had promised, and being the very fulfillment of His Word, where He had sworn a “Second” Oath by Himself. (Genesis 22:15-18. & Hebrews 6:13-20.)

        Genesis 22:2.;
        “And He said, Take now thy son, “thine only” son Isaac, whom thou “lovest”, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”

        (“thine only son” regarding Isaac, is repeated within Genesis 22:12. & 16., for a total of three times, and is therefore referencing Jesus and Divine Intervention.)

        “Thine Only” above, being derived from the Hebrew adjective “יְחִֽידְךָ֤”, transliterated as, “yachiyd”, and defined as “only, only one, solitary, one, unique, only begotten… Son”.

        And you believe that thematically, the recorded verses of Genesis 22:1-19., are an amazing symbolic foreshadowing of what was to occur years later, as well – right?

        With the mention of “third day”, (Gen.22:4.), Abraham stating, that God Himself would provide the Lamb for the sacrifice, (Gen. 22:8.) and Abraham’s prophetic naming of that Sacred location as “יִרְאֶה יְהוָה”, “YHVH Sees and Provides”, (Gen. 22:14.).

        As well as the Sacrifice of Jesus taking place in Jerusalem, on Golgotha, on the very same Mount Moriah, and to Isaac not appearing within the text of scripture as being physically present again, until he meets who would become his bride, Rebekah for the first time, (Genesis 24:63,64.).

        Rebekah here, being a foreshadowing who symbolically represents, the Church of Jesus, or Bride.

        And though not a virgin birth, the birth of Isaac, (with Abraham being one hundred years old and with Sarah being barren and now 91), was also by Divine Intervention of God and Spirit.
        (Just like the birth of Jesus was. Both births were a fulfillment of God The Fathers Promise, and orchestrated through and by, Divine Intervention.)

        Furthermore, since Abrahams Faith meant that he also believed God when He said, “thou shalt be a father of many nations”, (Genesis 17:4.), and that God said that the promise and covenant, would be fulfilled through Isaac, “I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his SEED after him”, (Genesis 17:19.), then Abraham had no choice but to logically conclude, that if he did happen to complete the sacrifice of his son Isaac, for Gods Promises and Covenant to be fulfilled, God would have to also Resurrect Isaac.

        This last point is alluded to within Hebrews 11:19., yet as a “similitude and example”, it all came to fruition and climaxed years later, when another, “Promise” and “Covenant” were also fulfilled, with the Sacrifice and Resurrection of the “One true Seed”, our Lord and Saviour Jesus.

        So, if you agree with and believe all of the above, then, “who” do you suppose that “Ishmael” being “firstborn” symbolically represents and foreshadows?

        And “why” and for “what purpose” did Father God allow for Hagar to conceive Ishmael by Abram?

        And just as important, though Ishmael would have been present within Genesis 18., “why” wasn’t he even mentioned once or ever acknowledged by the Lord or His Angels throughout their entire time together?

        • gm

          I guess following your logic, Ishmael might be considered the antichrist spirit.

          why he was born first, to show how abraham produced flesh instead of spirit by failing to believe in the promise of a child by sarah.

          hagar was flesh, and rebellion against the promise, and so was her son.

          Ishmael was not mentioned because he was not the one promised

          he was the result of man’s actions, not God’s

  47. Hi Marianne,

    Actually, your response in many ways is quite accurate, though it does miss the mark regarding “who” Ishmael symbolically represents and foreshadows “specifically”, not only by my “logic, thought or opinion”, but also by some critical passages that are provided within the New Testament.

    First in defense of Abram, (before God changed his name to Abraham), though Abram knew that he would father an heir, (Genesis 15:4.), he wasn’t yet aware when he and Hagar conceived “Ishmael” that the promise of that heir, would be a son through Sarah, (Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.).

    Now Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”.
    And Sarai, “שָׂרַי”, transliterated as “Saray”, means “Princess”.
    Therefore, “who” is ABRAM the “father” of?

    So allow for me to ask my previous question again by wording it differently, before I will address my other two questions after seeing your reply.

    If within Genesis 22:1-19., (notice the change in name), ABRAHAM was a “type” of “God the Father”, that would have already had a son, before “Isaac” who clearly symbolically represents “Jesus” here, then “who” was “God the Fathers firstborn son” before “Jesus”?

    “Ishmael” would then be the equivalent (as a symbolic representation, and foreshadowing) to God the Fathers “firstborn son”.

    (Regarding the antichrist spirit, that would be accurate in the context of those that don’t believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah.)

    So again, “who” does “Ishmael” foreshadow and symbolically represent?

    .

  48. Hi Marianne,

    Well the answer as to “who” Ishmael symbolically represents and foreshadows is “ethnic Israel”, Abram and God’s firstborn son, (Exodus 4:22.)

    And “ethnic Israel” would also have “duality of meaning” in that, it would also incorporate “all of mankind” that doesn’t believe in Jesus as their Saviour, and everyone that Jesus as Judge, would deem to be “firstborn and flesh” .

    No one that isn’t born of the Spirit, can see or enter the Kingdom of God, (John 3:3. & 5.).
    No one that isn’t born of the Spirit, will be an HEIR with Jesus, because they are flesh, and are “firstborn” instead of Spirit and a “New second born Creation”, (John 3:6.).

    Genesis 21:10. Wherefore she said unto Abraham, “Cast Out” this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall NOT be HEIR with my Son, even with Isaac”.

    God agreed with Sarah, and her decision, and Abraham was told by God in Genesis 21:12. to listen to Sarah, and do what she said, because, “for in Isaac shall thy Seed be called.”

    And Abraham (as a “type” of God the Father), gives and leaves everything to Isaac, (as a “type” of Jesus) as his heir, (Genesis 25:5.).

    Though God is not finished with ethnic Israel for the sake of the fathers, His first “love” are those that have “faith and belief” in His Son, because Jesus died to create this “New second born Creation”.

    But this “Casting Out” for ethnic Israel and the rest of the unbelieving world of “firstborn flesh”, as well as those from the Church of Laodicea, who have been deemed by Jesus to be “wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked”, (hence exposing their flesh), is the “Casting Into” the “Trial and Time of Testing” and the “Wrath (or anger and discipline) of Jesus”, (Revelation 3:10. & 19.), otherwise referred to as the SEALS, where all have the opportunity to repent and come to, (or back to) HIM.

    Consider this, currently as it stands today, “ethnic Israel” simply thinks that we as Christians are delusional to believe in a “Man-God”.
    They believe that God is merely One and that He has said within the Old Testament over a 100 times, that HE IS the “Redeemer, Deliverer, Salvation and Saviour” and they have no concept that because “man of flesh” (1st.Adam, firstborn) was the nail in the coffin that then caused sin and death, that a “Man of Spirit” (2nd. Adam, Second Born) was necessary to repair and reconcile that sin and death. (see 1 Corinthians 15:45.)

    Something very significant has to occur to very make them, “jealous”, (Deuteronomy 32.21., Romans 10:19., and 11:11.) and for their eye’s to be opened to the possibilities of a Man-God, (not to mention the rest of the “firstborn flesh” world).

    Now from what I can gather from your website, you have been doing this from at least January 2007, and when you didn’t immediately reply in your response above with the answer “ethnic Israel” it did leave me rather confused.
    I thought that the response of “ethnic Israel” would have simply been automatic. (?)

    Since you mentioned the Book of Isaiah above, was I wrong in assuming that after all of these years, you haven’t followed God the Fathers instructions and directive, (Commandment or Torah) to…. “Look to Abraham if you were seeking Righteousness before a Holy God”.

    Isaiah 51:1,2.;
    “Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.”

    Though we have barely scratched the surface by what I have provided in all the above, this is basically what we have done.
    We’ve “Looked back to Abraham”, but also since this is the Word of God, we were thorough, and went right back to Abram.

    We discovered that by obeying YHVH, and being the “firstborn son” of Terah, Abram received the fulfillment of his “firstborn birthright”, and became the Father of “ethnic Israel”, the “firstborn people” of God that were as a whole, comprised of “flesh”.

    Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”, and he was the “father of ethnic Israel”.

    Sarai, (who was barren, which foreshadows Mary being a Virgin) wasn’t involved physically with the birth of Ishmael, only Hagar was.

    In Genesis 17:5. & 15,16. after Abram’s encounter with “Melchizedek King of Salem” (Jesus), God then changes both his and Sarai’s name.
    Abram becomes Abraham, and Sarai becomes Sarah.

    Abraham, “אַבְרָהָם”, transliterated as “’Avraham”, means “Father of Multitudes, or, Nations”.
    Sarah, “שָׂרָה”, transliterated as “Sarah”, means, “Princess of Nations”.

    Like when we ourselves have our own personal encounter with Jesus, and we become “born again of Spirit”, and we become a “New second born Creation”, Abram in now having his name changed to Abraham, also becomes a “second born” and with it becomes the “Father of Promise, Faith and Belief”.

    Sarah’s name was changed because she foreshadows Mary, where both will play a significant role in the fulfillment of bringing forth God’s Promise.

    So you are right in your reply regarding Ishmael, where you say;
    “why he was born first, to show how abraham (ABRAM) produced flesh instead of spirit ” and that “hagar was flesh, and rebellion against the promise, and so was her son. Ishmael was not mentioned because he was not the one promised, he was the result of man’s actions, not God’s”

    In other words, Abram, (a firstborn) and Hagar’s (a woman that is a slave) union and the birth of Ishmael foreshadow as a “similitude and example”, how futile flesh, or a human attempt is, in being able to fulfill Gods Promise.

    Now what also struck me as odd, was that all of this is explained within the New Testament by Paul.
    Within Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1., Paul explains in detail what we have more or less covered over these last couple of posts, and why I thought it peculiar that you didn’t answer with “ethnic Israel” in your first reply.

    Many do find Galatians 4:21. to be confusing, so if I may quote that verse from the K.J.V., I’ll also explain what Paul’s question actually consists of.

    4:21. “Tell me, “YE THAT DESIRE” to be under the law, do ye not “HEAR” the law?”

    4:21. is rendered in the Greek Morphological text as;

    “λέγετέ μοι οἱ ὑπὸ νόμον θέλοντες εἶναι τὸν νόμον οὐκ ἀκούετε”

    And would be transliterated as;

    “legete moi hoi hypo nomom thelontes einai ton nomom ouk akouete”.

    As rendered, this in turn would roughly translate into English as;

    “Tell me you who under law want to be the law do you not hear?”

    The translated English “YE THAT DESIRE” was derived from the Greek verb “θέλοντες”, transliterated as “thelontes”.

    Thelontes is defined as, “to will, have in mind, intend, to be resolved or determined, to purpose, to desire, to wish etc.”.

    Within the first portion of the verse, “ye that desire to be under the law”, Paul is referring to the “Mosaic Law”.

    The translated “HEAR”, above, has far more to do with the concept of “understanding” rather than anything audible.

    With “hear” being derived from the Greek verb, “ἀκούετε”, transliterated as “akouete”, from the definitions of the word, it’s context is to be understood as, “to attend to, consider what is or has been said, to understand, perceive the sense of what is said, to comprehend, to understand, to give ear to a teaching or a teacher to learn”.

    Therefore where Paul poses the question, “do ye not HEAR the law?”, in the latter portion of the verse, he is now referring to “Torah”, and a time reaching back in history, far further than that of the Mosaic Law.

    The verse itself should have been rendered as “Tell me you that desire to be under the Mosaic Law, do you not understand Torah?”

    This can be easily verified by the very fact that, that all the narrative from this point forward in chapter 4, is all from Torah, (with the exception of verse 4:27., [Isaiah 54:1.] which also happens to reference Torah) and a time that predates the Mosaic Law.

    Paul expresses that there are two Covenants where the “First” one is symbolically represented and foreshadowed by “Hagar and Ishmael”, a slave and a “firstborn of flesh”, which consists of a futile human effort to fulfill God’s Promise.

    But that the ”Second” Covenant is symbolically represented and foreshadowed by “Sarah and Isaac” where both are “free”, are “Second Born” and represent “the Fulfillment of Promise, Faith and Belief”.

    I am sure that after all of your years of study that you are well aware that after Abraham demonstrated his willingness to offer up Isaac, (which was clearly a foreshadowing of the Father providing Jesus), that Abraham didn’t once see the need to offer up any “offering or sacrifice” of any kind to God, and how this would be germane to the irrelevance of the Mosaic Law, as opposed to Faith after Jesus.

    But since you didn’t, (and haven’t yet) answered with “ethnic Israel”, I am wondering as to how you personally interpret the text of Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1.?

    Would you be kind enough to fill me in?

    .

    • GM

      they are different topics but they overlap

      lsaac also represented christ, so Ishmael represents antichrist

      Isaac represented spiritual/ saved, so Ishmael represents what is ethnic/ not saved yet

      Isaac represented spirit, so Ishmael represents flesh

      4
      28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

      29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

      I have always seen the human nature as either spiritual or flesh….the concept of “ethnic” is not addressed in scripture by that term, but your analogy is still valid in the way you present it

  49. Hi Marianne,
    Thanks for your response.

    To me what you provided in your reply, only further demonstrates the “duality and multiplicity of meaning” that God provides us within scripture.

    I would agree that, “Isaac represents Christ, Spirit, Salvation, and I would also add, the fulfillment of “Promise”, and that “Ishmael represents antichrist, what is not saved, “flesh” and the lack of fulfillment of Promise”.

    As I said above within one of my previous posts when you first introduced this “antichrist” concept, “Regarding the antichrist spirit, that would be accurate in the context of those that don’t believe that Jesus was indeed the Messiah”, these individuals in God the Fathers eyes would be considered as “flesh” and “firstborns”.

    Now though this may sound like the most ridiculous question that has ever been asked, I’m going to ask it anyway.
    “Do you believe that what “Isaac” represents, as opposed to what “Ishmael” represents, are the extreme antithesis of each other?”

    I’m going to assume that you answered “YES” to the above and continue on,🙂, though the aspect of “opposition” must be fully understood.

    Now where you say, “they are different topics but they overlap”, I’m not sure what you are referring to exactly?
    But since you provided scripture from the passages that I had directed you to, I’ll assume that it has relevance to them.

    Do you remember the definition that I provided above regarding Amos 3:7.?
    Well, whether these passages of Galatians 4:21. through 5:1., were expressed by Paul, or any other Apostle, they had to be expressed to fulfill Amos 3:7.
    The meaning of what “Abram, Hagar and Ishmael” opposed to “Abraham, Sarah and Isaac” as a “similitude and example” must be explained.

    The two obvious questions that we should be addressing are:

    1) “WHY”, when the Mosaic Law was in place and paramount for “righteousness, tsĕdaqah”, (Deuteronomy 6:25.), would God then instruct and direct those that seek Him, to look to Abraham and Sarah for “righteousness, tsedeq”, in Isaiah 51:1.?

    2) “Why didn’t God direct everyone to “look to Moses”?”

    The answers to both questions are provided by Paul within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1..

    Above you quote Galatians 4:28.;
    “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

    Let’s look at the above verse to see exactly what Paul is referring to here. What do we know and can say with confidence that would be “fact”?

    Though “Isaac” was Abraham’s and Sarah’s “firstborn son” of Promise, (and in being “their firstborn” son together, Isaac establishes his own “birthright”), we also know that Isaac is (Abram)/Abraham’s “second born” son.

    By that, since we know that Abraham symbolically represents a “type” of God the Father, we can also conclude that “Isaac” symbolically represents a “type” of Jesus, the true fulfillment of Promise, and that JESUS (like Isaac) has established HIS own “BIRTHRIGHT”, (or Covenant) as well.

    So the “brethren” above must also encompass all of the above.

    First for us to be “brethren”, we must be “born of the Spirit” and also become “second born” (like Isaac) and a “New Creation” and be granted access to the “BIRTHRIGHT”, (or Covenant) of Jesus .

    This is achieved through “Faith and Belief” in Jesus.

    Second, to be like “Isaac and a child of Promise”, “brethren” would also mean that you are considered by God, to be a “figurative child” of Abraham’s and Sarah’s.

    Galatians 3:6,7.;
    “Even as Abraham Believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of Faith, the same are the children of Abraham.”

    Now before continuing further, I would like to know whether or not you fully agree with the above?

    And I also have a request.
    Could you please provide me with what you believe, a “definition” of “Torah” would be?

    .

    • gm

      amos 3:7
      Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

      I do not see how this is related to the discussion of opposites present in bible personalities.

      Torah technically is the first 5 books of the bible, which is mosaic law and history.

      Tenach refers to all old testament text.

      Sometimes Torah can refer to the entire tenach, with the concept that God’s law and will is present in all books of the bible in some form or another.

  50. Hi Marianne,

    Yes the “Tenach” or “Tanakh” refers to “all Old Testament text”.
    It is an acronym for “Torah” (law), Nevi’im, (prophets) and Ketuvim (writings), and as you say, “Torah” is technically, or “generally” referring to the first five books that were scribed by Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

    However many people when the hear the word “Torah” immediately associate and “limit” that word, to be referencing the “Mosaic Law”.
    (Many unfortunately do the very same thing whenever they see the word “Commandment” too.)
    The “Mosaic Law” just happens to be included within the last four books, but “Torah” has a far broader scope than simply that.

    Specifically, Torah the Hebrew “תּוֹרָה”, transliterated as “tôwrâh”, is defined primarily in its noun form, as “law, direction and instruction”.
    Tôwrâh being derived from the Hebrew root verb, “יָרָה”, transliterated as “yârâh”, is primarily defined as to “shoot an arrow and to hit the mark”.

    Together then, tôwrâh can be defined as “to shoot out” in respects to “pointing or leading to show”, “to direct”, “to teach and instruct”, or “to lay foundations” to “hit the mark”.

    Therefore by that definition, the first recorded tôwrâh issued to man in scripture, would be the Commandments of Genesis 1:28-30., which are thousands and thousands of years before Sinai, and the revelation of the Mosaic Law.

    You recognize and acknowledge this yourself where you say;
    “Sometimes Torah can refer to the entire tenach, with the concept that God’s law and will is present in all books of the bible in some form or another.”

    Though I would express that slightly different by saying;
    “Torah is present throughout the whole of the Bible, (both Old and New), because God’s Will “IS” present within all Books.”

    Just because the language in which each was written has changed, (from Hebrew and Aramaic to Greek), does not detract from a “Commandment from God” in one, carrying any less weight, than a “Commandment from God” in the other.
    A “Commandment from God the Father” “IS” a “Commandment from God the Father.”

    And since everything that Jesus said, came directly from God the Father, (Deuteronomy 18:15. & 18,19., John 3:34., 8:26.,28. & 47., 12:49,50., 14:10.,24., 17:8. & Hebrews 1:1,2.), then that should only further confirm, that everything that Jesus expressed as a Commandment is also Torah as “law, direction and instruction”, and is a Commandment from God the Father.

    Regarding Amos 3:7.
    Amos 3:7., is simply relevant to everything.

    If God says that He will do NOTHING unless He FIRST reveals what He is going to do, then He CAN’T DO what He wants to do UNTIL He actually expresses that desire FIRST.
    (I posted the definition to Amos 3:7. above in the beginning of my reply to dmcal52 on Nov. 9th. @ 7:34am. in what looks like comment 360889.)

    And God does this through Paul, where Paul explains in detail within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1., “what” the whole historical account of Abram, Hagar and Ishmael, and Abraham, Sarah and Isaac, actually represents in being a “symbolic foreshadowing”, and a “similitude and example”.

    If Paul through the Holy Spirit, hadn’t explained “what all of this actually means”, then not only would God NOT be able to perform it, “we” simply would never have understood it, and because it is so “deep”, we would have probably never made the connection in the first place.

    So, we have TWO sons that came from the same FATHER, where one son, “Ishmael” represents antichrist, what is not saved, “flesh” and the lack of the fulfillment of Promise”. Being the child of Hagar, “Ishmael” also represents the birth of “slavery and bondage”.

    And we have the other son, “Isaac” who represents Christ, Spirit, Salvation, and the fulfillment of “Promise”. Being the child of Sarah, “Isaac” also represents the birth of “freedom and liberty”.

    Now in that context, apply these two sons to just the verses of Galatians 4:22.– 25..
    What do you understand from this?

    .

  51. Hi Marianne,

    I had come to this site initially, (a month or so ago) to see whether or not, the significance that God places on “Firsts and Seconds” had also been possibly revealed to others?

    When while here then, I read some of the posts on another page, and replied to one that dmcal52 had made in respects to the same topic of discussion that I addressed here on “Seals Overlap”.

    Where I attempted to explain, in both instances, that if 1 Corinthians 10:1-11. and what happened to ethnic Israel was an example for the Church, then by logical extension, just like God only called a “remnant” of Israel to the truth of Jesus, only a “remnant” of the Church will be accounted worthy for the “first resurrection”,
    (Revelation 3:7-12., a Church of Overcomers.
    Revelation 3:14-19., a Church that is wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked and being “spit out”).

    I had returned this last time to see whether or not, the aspect of being “barren” had also possibly been revealed to others?
    Being “barren” like, Sarah, Rebekah, Leah, Rachel, Manoah’s wife the mother of Samson, etc. etc., is “symbolic and foreshadows” many different things.

    For one, it foreshadows that God Himself had no legitimate (human) children after the implementation of the Mosaic Law.
    (Moses himself, (after his error with the Rock at Kadesh) had to be retrieved, (through compassion and mercy) by the Archangel Michael from Satan, [Jude 1:9.].
    Even King David hasn’t ascended to heaven yet, [Acts 2:34,35.].
    And Romans 3:9-18. clearly states that “not one man” was “righteous” prior to Jesus.)

    Which means, that the aspect of being “barren” foreshadows, that God must perform Divine Intervention by providing His Son, where through Jesus, “children of adoption” may then be attained, and where ultimately, the Promise that He had made (Genesis 3:15., Genesis 22:18.) would then be fully realized.

    Like the significance that God places on “First and Seconds” there is so much more that I could provide and comment on regarding the scope and substance of being “barren”.

    Then, while still in the process of demonstrating how “multifaceted in meaning” and “polysemantic” God’s Word can be, (and to how this also testifies to the validity of the “definition” that I have provided above for Amos 3:7.), “YOU” replied to “me”.

    And it was during the course of our discussion, when I had asked you, “Who “Ishmael” symbolically represents as Abram/(Abraham’s) firstborn son”, and you didn’t automatically respond with “ethnic Israel”, that I realized that you don’t fully understand the passages of Galatians 4:21 through 5:1..

    Normally I wouldn’t consider this to be a “big deal”, since “none of us”, (myself included) has the capacity to fully understand the totality of God and His Word.
    However, these particular passages express a “foundational tenet” of the “Gospel of Jesus”, and to our walk in Faith.

    So I enquired as to what your “interpretation” of those passages consists of on, “November 16th. @ 9:40 pm.” and asked you, “I am wondering as to how you personally interpret the text of Galatians 4:21. through to 5:1.?”

    However in your reply the next day, you chose to not comply with my request, and instead culled out and quoted only two verses, without providing any context or specificity in respect to those verses. (?)

    So…. because these passages express such an “important foundational tenet”, I pressed forward by providing you with additional “hints” and “clues”.
    (Where interestingly, everything that I have said, (with the exception of my post regarding “allah”) also has relevance to Galatians 4:21. through 5:1.)

    I then requested that you, “apply these two sons to just the verses of Galatians 4:22.– 25.”, and I again asked, What do you understand from this?”, where no further response from you has been forthcoming. (?)

    Now, though I could provide you with what specifically, each and every verse is expressing, I have found in the past, that the results of doing this, are much like providing someone “advise”.
    “Advice” can be taken, or simply tossed aside, depending upon the recipient.
    However when something is revealed by the Spirit, we then have an “A-ha” moment which can’t be denied.

    So I would like to let you know, that this is no longer between You and I.
    (I am leaving, and continuing on with my studies and to where God leads me.)
    You know in your heart whether you actually understand these “passages”, and better yet, “God knows” too.
    So whether you “choose” to delve into these passages or not, is solely between “You and God”.

    James says in James 1:5,6.;
    “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.”, because true revelation and interpretation can only be provided by the Spirit of Truth, (1 Corinthians 2:10-16.).

    It is my hope that you do “choose” to do so, and that through the Spirit you receive the full understanding of what it is that Father God is expressing in regards to these passages. In doing so, it should also provide you with better insight in being able to “Edify the Church” on your site, (which I hope is also the “heart of your mandate” for this site overall).

    If you do, remember that there are “two sons” and “two Covenants” from the same “Father (God)”, and that it is “Sarah” that is married and has the husband, and keep in mind, “That it is virtually impossible to be both, “Isaac” and “Ishmael” at the same time”, so one should “choose” to be one son, or the other. Hence what Paul says in Galatians 5:1.

    God Bless.

  52. Hi Marianne,

    I forgot that I hadn’t provided the information that I said that I would provide, regarding the “Two Resurrection’s” of those that have “faith” in Jesus, that are foreshadowed in the Old Testament, (or “First” Covenant).
    I’ll try to provide them over the next week or so here on “Seals Overlap” before I go.

    However, I did notice that You and Shoshanna are having a discussion with an individual named Jacob on “YHVH, Behold, the man, behold the nail.”
    Where it appears that he holds to the belief in the “Oneness of God”, the same as Judaism, (and interestingly, the same as Islam).
    Perhaps you could utilize some of the following within that discussion to provide him with some insight?
    (I don’t wish to get involved lol.)

    Judaism is “the monotheistic religion of the Jewish people”, and those that have converted to the “Jewish faith”.
    Which would consist of individuals that don’t believe that Jesus is the Saviour, and who are “firstborns”, not being indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

    Those that practice Judaism, read the text of Creation, (Genesis Ch.1 to 2:3.), and because they haven’t been blessed with the knowledge from the Second Covenant text, they simply accept ‘Elohiym as being just another Name for YHVH. (You may too, so please bare with me.)

    The paradox here is, though it IS another Name…. IT’s not.

    Though indeed ONE, (‘Elohiym is YHVH, Exodus 6:2., John 1:1.) THEY the THREE are distinct.

    ‘Elohiym in the Divine personage of Jesus is unique.

    For example, those that practice Judaism, will read Scripture from the Old Covenant such as this excerpt from Joel 2:32.;
    “that whosoever shall call on the name of the “LORD, (YHVH)” shall be delivered”,
    and believe because they trust in YHVH, that they will go to heaven and be with Him when they die.

    Unfortunately however, they have no idea that the entirety of this verse is prophetic.

    Joel 2:32.;
    “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (JESUS) shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD (YHVH) hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD (YHVH) shall call.” (Father God’s calling, John 6:44. & 65.)

    Though this verse has duality of meaning, in not having any knowledge of what is written and spoken by YHVH through Jesus and the Apostle’s within the Second Covenant text, they have no idea that this verse is referring specifically to that of “Jesus”, and “Calling on His Name”.

    Simply see, “Acts 2:21. & 4:10-12., Romans 10:9-13., and John 14:1-6.” for a verification of that truth.

    Therefore though ONE, there is indeed a distinction.

    As opposed to those that practice Judaism, We however are “second born”, by being indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and know from the Second Covenant text of, John 1:1-3., 1 Corinthians 8:6., Ephesians 3:9., Colossians 1:16,17., and Hebrews 1:2., & 2:10., that Jesus is, The Word, and The Creator ‘Elohiym.

    If when John in referring to Jesus says that “All things were made through Him, and without Him, nothing was made that was made”, and Paul backs that up by saying in referring to Jesus, “by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him” etc. etc., then it is only reasonable to conclude that The Creator ‘Elohiym is Jesus. They are One and the same.

    I would like to propose the following:
    Within the New Second Covenant YHVH is referred to as, “Father God”.
    Father God is invisible and is Spirit, (Colossians 1:15. and John 4:24.).

    ‘Elohiym is also YHVH, (Exodus 6:2. and John 1:1.) but is the portion of Divinity that manifests Himself on earth.
    ‘Elohiym has manifested Himself in many different forms and personages throughout scripture.

    And it is by recognizing this distinction, that a greater understanding of many different things can be received.

    .

    • I do not see it that way, my opinion…

      elohim is the father source of all creation…jesus even speaks of the father as being greater than he is

      the father worked through jesus to create ….so the source of power to create is the father, but the administrator who carries out the creative process is Jesus

      in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name….

  53. Hi Marianne,

    Well, we are all welcome to have our own opinion, (which vary greatly from one end of the spectrum to the other) but they can’t all be right. (?)

    Isn’t God’s Word comprised of “truth”, and isn’t it our responsibility to discover that “truth”, amongst all of the so called opinions?

    I have participated on sites like yours in the past, and unfortunately came to the following conclusion….
    “That peoples opinions have “taken over and superseded”, the act of being a Berean.”

    The following is not to be understood in anyway as to being accusatory, so please don’t be offended, I simply believe it to be fact;

    “I feel that it is safe to say, that while in the process of reading what I had written above, you came across something that you either didn’t fully understand, or that differed from what you currently believe, (which is the basis that forms your opinion). And from that moment forward, you basically disregarded what I had written, (having deemed it to be inaccurate), and not once “searched the scriptures” (that I had provided) as a Berean.”

    Because I can clearly see by what you say within your response….

    “The Father (YHVH) worked through Jesus (‘Elohiym) to create ….so the source of power to create is the Father (YHVH), but the administrator (‘Elohiym) who carries out the creative process is Jesus (‘Elohiym).”

    …. that you didn’t fully understand what I was saying above, because rather than being contradictory, your comment actually agrees and confirms plurality and the distinction where “Two” are in relationship.
    “YHVH is the Source”, and “’Elohiym is the Instrument”.

    Allow for me to present all of this from a different, (Spirit) perspective.

    Question; “What is the only available means through which “we” as mere man, receive the opportunity to approach YHVH or Father God?”

    The answer of course, simply based upon what Jesus Himself says in John 14:6., is “only” through “Him’.

    So we “FIRST” believe and have faith in “Jesus”, where through “Grace” we are then granted access to “His Righteousness” so we can then approach YHVH or Father God.

    Now within our previous discussions, I have already provided numerous examples of how Father God has equipped us with symbolic foreshadowing’s within scripture, that express that He will perform Divine Intervention and provide mere man with His Son, The Messiah.

    Adam foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Cain, Able and Seth, foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Abram foreshadowing ethnic Israel and “Melchizedek” foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.
    Abraham being a “type” of Father God (YHVH) and Isaac foreshadowing a “type” of Messiah.

    Where I could go on and on and provide hundreds, if not possibly thousands of these “symbolic foreshadowing” examples.

    Therefore, if Father God has provided us with all of the above, and in doing so, demonstrated as to how incomprehensibly proficient He is in His Word, wouldn’t He ALSO provide “symbolic foreshadowing’s” regarding the aspect of;
    “JESUS FIRST, then GRACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS, then being able to APPROACH YHVH or FATHER GOD?

    Above in my last post I said…
    “And it is by recognizing this distinction, that a greater understanding of many different things can be received.”

    Would it be merely coincidence then, that Adam was created in the image of ‘Elohiym (Genesis 1:26,27. and 5:1.), BEFORE the the first time the LORD (YHVH) is mentioned by Name within Genesis 2:4.?

    Was it merely coincidence, that Enoch walked with ‘Elohiym, (Genesis 5:22-23.), and it was ‘Elohiym that “took” (laqach, caught up, seized) Enoch to YHVH, (Jesus to God the Father), where Enoch would now have relationship with both, YHVH and ‘Elohiym. (Hebrews 11:5.)?

    Or better yet, was it merely coincidence that, Noah, because he walked with ‘Elohiym, was “just, tsaddiyq” (Genesis 6:9.), therefore he found “GRACE” in the eyes of YHVH, (Genesis 6:8.).

    And, because Noah obeyed all of the Commandments from ‘Elohiym, regarding building the Ark, preparing the food for themselves, and all of the birds and animals, consisting of two, both male and female, (Genesis 6:13-22.), YHVH could then declare Noah as being “Righteous, also tsaddiyq”, (Genesis 7:1. & Hebrews 11:7.).

    It was then that Noah had relationship with YHVH, and Noah, (after he had been declared as being righteous) then received separate Commandments from YHVH, where YHVH expanded upon the Commandments from ‘Elohiym, to gather seven of every clean animal, both male and female, and specified that instead of just two birds of male and female, to increase that number to seven as well, (Genesis 7:1-4.), which Noah then fulfilled, (Genesis 7:5.).

    Then we have Abram, who “symbolically represents” ethnic Israel, where we have a very significant foreshadowing and a major shift in paradigm.
    Abram is the very FIRST individual in scripture that has relationship with YHVH FIRST, (Genesis 12:1. through 14:17., where only YHVH is mentioned).

    And though Abram fulfilled and obeyed each and every Commandment made to him by YHVH, (see my post 361041 of November 13th. @ 12:45 am.) it was ONLY after the appearance of “Melchizedek” that Abram could then be declared as being “Righteous”.
    (Is this merely coincidence too?)

    All of the above, do more than “symbolically foreshadow” that the belief and faith in JESUS CHRIST comes FIRST, then through GRACE, the state or position of RIGHTEOUSNESS, where through that, we are then able to APPROACH YHVH or FATHER GOD.

    And like the “symbolic foreshadowing’s” regarding Father God providing us with His Son, (where I could go on and on and provide hundreds, if not possibly thousands of examples), I could also continue on here as well.

    Therefore though ONE, (John 1:1.), they are also distinct.
    If They weren’t distinct from One another, then not would all of the above be redundant and have no meaning whatsoever, but there would have never been a need or necessity for Father God to provide us with His Son.
    Because all that believe in YHVH, (whether they happened to believe in Jesus or not), would as Joel 2:32. states, “BE SAVED”.

    And that is completely contrary to our Faith, and everything that is provided by Father God within the New Second Covenant text.

    Above you also make the statement, “in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name.”

    Well you’re correct there, at that specific time ‘Elohiym didn’t introduce Himself to Moses as YHVH, but He does later in Exodus 6:2.;
    “And ‘Elohiym spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the YHVH:”

    The reason that Rabbinical Judaism doesn’t recognize any of this, is because they’re attempting to decipher the “Word of God” “carnally” as “firstborns of flesh”, since they don’t possess “God’s Spirit”.
    If we don’t utilize God’s Spirit when we read the Word, we do the same thing, and aren’t receptive to the scope and depth of “what” God the Father is actually expressing in His Word.

    We must always remain conscious of seeking God’s Truth through the Spirit, otherwise we simply decipher scripture in the same carnal, fleshy, means of interpretation.

    .

    • gm

      please write shorter commentaries. I have about 100 emails a day to read, and long ones i have to skim quickly, which may be a reason we seem to disconnect.

      i did catch this

      you misquoted/misunderstood me when you said:

      Because I can clearly see by what you say within your response….

      “The Father (YHVH) worked through Jesus (‘Elohiym) to create ….so the source of power to create is the Father (YHVH), but the administrator (‘Elohiym) who carries out the creative process is Jesus (‘Elohiym).”

      to me, the FATHER is elohim……jesus is YHVH

  54. Sorry.

    “Yes” “They” are One as I said above.

    But do you understand that “They” are also distinct.

    If “They” weren’t distinct from One another, then not would all of the above be redundant and have no meaning whatsoever, but there would have never been a need or necessity for Father God to provide us with His Son.

    Because all that believe in YHVH, (whether they happened to believe in Jesus or not), would as Joel 2:32. states, “BE SAVED”.

    And that is completely contrary to our Faith, and everything that is provided by Father God within the New Second Covenant text.

    Oh and did you happen to catch the above when you skimmed it over?

    Above you also make the statement, “in the burning bush, when asked his name, elohim answered “I am”, not YHVH as a name.”

    Well you’re correct there, at that specific time ‘Elohiym didn’t introduce Himself to Moses as YHVH, but He does later in Exodus 6:2.;
    “And ‘Elohiym spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the YHVH:”

    That was shorter🙂

    .

    • gm

      yes that was shorter 🙂

      yes I know they are distinct.

      exd 6:1-3 the hebrew is a little more complex than that. it says

      yhvh was speaking to begin with to moses….in verse 1 and 3

      verse two not only includes elohim but אֵלָיו which means goddess.. possibly a reference to the holy spirit.

      it actually says elohim spoke to moses….and goddess said I am YHVH

      my impression is that the father, son and spirit were all present…

  55. Hi Marianne,

    I believe that the Spirit is ever-present at all times as well.

    But since we are both on the same page regarding the “Three being One”, yet at the same time, being “distinct” from One Another, I would really appreciate it if you could find the time to really read and contemplate over what I had written above in that last post.

    Regarding “’ê-lāw” or “אֵלָיו” , spelled Aleph, Lamed, Yod and Vav.
    It is my understanding that ’ê-lāw is a preposition. (?)
    And that “’ĕ·lō·hê ” or “אֱלֹהֵ֖י”, spelled Aleph, Lamed, Hey and Yod, (or ‘elohiym, “אֱלֹהִים” minus the Mem) is what is translated as “goddess” depending upon context, such as in 1 Kings 11:5. and 11:33.
    Am I incorrect in that understanding?

    .

    • gm

      אֱלֹהֵ֖י means “god of” or divine…it is possessive.

      in one of the daily prayers, it says god of abraham, god of isaac, god of jacob….each time it will say אֱלֹהֵ֖י

      אֵלָה is goddess, the yud is missing and the vowels are different

      I have your other comment “starred” in my email to return to it.

      i have to drink some coffee first…

  56. Hi Marianne,

    “Okay then” regarding the above Hebrew.

    Any way’s,
    “Why” I hope that you’ll really take the time to contemplate over what I had written in that post, is because YOU DO RECOGNIZE and ACKNOWLEDGE that though ONE, THEY ARE DISTINCT.
    (And I also hope that you’ll take into account the “list of Commandments that YHVH had given Abram, which Abram fulfilled and obeyed, yet still wasn’t declared by YHVH to be “Righteous”, [which I’ve listed in my post of 361041 on November 13th. @ 12:45 am.])

    Many people DON’T recognize this “FACT”, and therefore miss some very significant aspects of what is being said within the Fathers Word.

    Look at Genesis 17:1,2.
    “And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD (YHVH) appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before Me, and be thou perfect. And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.”

    Now I’m not going to go into specific detail regarding “שַׁדַּי אֵל” being translated in the King James as “Almighty God” here.
    It’s sufficient to know, as per Exodus 6:3., that this was the Name that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew the Divine as, and that Moses had scribed what he had, with intention and purpose as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    Let’s just concentrate on the “distinctiveness” between “YHVH and ‘Elohiym” for the moment.

    So above we have YHVH saying to Abram, “If you’ll walk “perfectly” before Me, (“tamiym”, completely and entirely whole, without blemish) then I will make My Covenant between us, and will multiply you greatly.”

    Then we have in Genesis 17:3-5.
    “And Abram fell on his face: and God (‘Elohiym) talked with him, saying As for Me, behold, My Covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

    Here we have ‘Elohiym making an ENTIRELY SEPARATE Covenant.
    So much so, that ‘Elohiym even changes Abram’s name to Abraham, and Sarai’s name to Sarah.

    YHVH’s Covenant is relevant to “ethnic Israel”, (ie; Genesis 12:2. & 7. and 13:14-16.) which are all promises made to Abram by YHVH prior to the appearance of Melchizedek.

    I believe that I have provided substantial evidence within my post of 361018, on November 12th. @ 7:04 am. that Abram “symbolically foreshadows” ethnic Israel throughout Genesis 12:1. to 14:17..
    Abram, “אַבְרָם”, transliterated as “’Avram”, means “Exalted Father”, and Abram was the Father of ethnic Israel.

    Then it was YHVH that made the promises of Genesis 15:4,5. yet this promise consists of “duality of meaning”.

    YHVH knew full well that ‘Elohiym would establish His Covenant with Isaac. That wasn’t a change in plans that They made Together on the fly.
    Though YHVH could have told Abram at that time, that he and Sarah would conceive a son together by Divine Intervention, He didn’t so that Abram and Hagar would conceive Ishmael for a specific purpose.

    The “FIRST” Covenant of promise that YHVH makes to Abram within Genesis 15:7-21. only further substantiates that this particular Covenant is regarding ethnic Israel.

    However now, ‘Elohiym changes Abram’s name to Abraham and and Sarai’s name to Sarah.
    Abraham, “אַבְרָהָם”, transliterated as “’Avraham”, means “Father of Multitudes, or, Nations”.
    And Sarah, “שָׂרָה”, transliterated as “Sarah”, means, “Princess of Nations”.

    And it is ‘Elohiym that now makes His Covenant with Abraham regarding Isaac, and reveals to Abraham that he and Sarah will conceive a Son, by what is stated within the narrative of the text, obviously through Divine Intervention, (Genesis 17:15-17. and most importantly verse 19.)

    Isaac of course is the “child of promise” who symbolically foreshadows “Christ, Spirit, Salvation, the fulfillment of Promise” and the ONE TRUE SEED.

    Since you requested that make my posts shorter, I’ll sign off here for today for the above is a lot to absorb.
    (I have found in the past, that this is simply too deep for many to fully understand.)
    However, if you are following along and are understanding the above, then that is great.
    Because all of this is relevant to so many things, not the least of which is the error of the Rabbinical understanding of Genesis 26:5., but also in it’s relevance to Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. that I spoke of earlier.

    God Bless

    • gm

      ok. just a note. the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham..sarah laughed at the news, since she was old. when sarah’s son was finally born, they named him isaac, which means laughter

      the only reason ishmael was born was because sarah and abraham had grown impatient, and thought god needed a little help, which was a dumb mistake….and we are still paying for that mistake today

  57. Hi Marianne,

    Actually, I addressed this in my previous comment to you, 361120 on November 15th. @ 8:13 pm. where I said;

    “First in defense of Abram, (before God changed his name to Abraham), though Abram knew that he would father an heir, (Genesis 15:4.), he wasn’t yet aware when he and Hagar conceived “Ishmael” that the promise of that heir, would be a son through Sarah, (Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.).”

    Though you say “the Lord told abraham and sarah that sarah would have a child, long before hagar was asked to bear a son for abraham”, THAT is Biblically inaccurate.

    Please be a Berean and simply read the text of “Genesis 15:4. then Genesis 17:16.,19.,21. & 18:10.,14.” to confirm the truth to what I am saying.

    • gm

      as of 15:4 he had no children yet

      2But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”

      3And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

      4Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.”

      5He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”


      so before he had ANY children, he was told about Isaac

  58. Hi Marianne,

    Seriously?

    After Abram asks the question, “What will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” and then also says regarding Eliezer, “Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!”

    YHVH then says in Genesis 15:4,, “This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.”

    YHVH provided no other knowledge to Abram other than “he will father a son that will be his heir”.
    YHVH said nothing about either Ishmael or Isaac!!!

    Ishmael was born to Abram when he was 86 years old, (Genesis 16:16.).

    Then 3 years later, ‘Elohiym, (after He has just changed Abram’s name to Abraham) says in Genesis 17:15-21.;

    “And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be.
    And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
    Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
    And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
    And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
    But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”

    This is obviously the FIRST time that Abram/Abraham had heard anything regarding Sarai/Sarah providing him with a son and a heir.
    It is also the FIRST time that he ever would have heard the name Isaac as well.

    Then a conformation of the above takes place in Genesis 18:9-15.;

    “And They said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    And He said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.
    Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
    Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
    And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
    Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
    Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And He said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.”

    Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born to him, Genesis 21:5.

    So do you still wish to stick with what you currently believe?

    .

    • gm

      what is the purpose of this line of questioning?

      Abraham clearly said he had no offspring in chapter 5. the only “heir” in his house would be his servant Eliezer of Damascus.

      god then tells him he will have an heir of his own body….so this is what the bible says…..this is the first time the promise is given.

      chapter 16…sarai had not born any children yet, and she had Hagar a servant.

      sarai decides to have abraham use her to get a child….hagar conceived by abraham, since abraham obeyed sarai.

      hagar then despises sarai and gets harshly treated…hagar flees…the angel sends her back and conceives Ishmael.

      promise is repeated in chapter 16:16-17 when abraham is 100 and sarai / sarah is 90.

      I do not want to use time to discuss this further

      what I said was biblically accurate

  59. Marianne,

    You ask me in your last response, “What is the purpose of this line of questioning?”

    So I will answer that question.

    “I am attempting to get you to realize, that what you currently believe regarding this topic is incorrect.”

    Question; Allow for me to just ask you this;
    “If in Genesis 15:4., YHVH told ABRAM, (not Abraham) specifics, (or even implied anything) regarding “Isaac”, WHY in heavens name did ABRAM name his FIRST son “Ishmael”?

    If YHVH had provided ABRAM with any knowledge regarding “Isaac”, then to name this son “Ishmael” would be DISOBEDIENT to YHVH.

    And being DISOBEDIENT would CONTRADICT Genesis 26:5.;
    “Because that Abraham OBEYED My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

    LOOK;

    When ABRAM was 75 and still living in Haran, and YHVH gave him the Commandment to leave, YHVH also said in Genesis 12:2.;
    “I will make you a great nation”.

    Now ABRAM probably wondered what that actually meant.
    Could it mean that he and SARAI were going to have children together in the future?
    Did he wonder “how and when” YHVH would make him “becoming a great nation” would come to fruition?
    Probably, but he hadn’t been provided with enough information to know any of the answers to the questions that he may have had.
    So, other than possibly thinking the above, ABRAM certainly had no clue regarding anything in respects to either Ishmael or Isaac.
    But ABRAM OBEYED and went to Canaan anyway.

    Later, when the group of them had made it as far as Shechem, (as far as the terebinth tree of Moreh), YHVH appeared to ABRAM again and said in Genesis 12:7.; “And to your “DESCENDANTS” I will give this land”.

    So here YHVH had provided ABRAM with a bit more information.
    ABRAM must of thought, “YHVH said that He will give my “descendants” this land.
    This must mean that I am going to father and have children with SARAI, and that’s how I will become a great nation.”
    But other than possibly thinking this, ABRAM wasn’t provided with any other information, (and he certainly had no clue regarding Ishmael or Isaac either).

    Later again, after ABRAM and everyone had returned from Egypt to Bethel, where he had pitched his tent and built an altar previously, ABRAM and Lot separated.
    After that had occurred, YHVH confirmed what He had said within Genesis 12:7. and provided ABRAM with more information within in Genesis 13:14-17.;

    YHVH said to ABRAM, “Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
    For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to “THY SEED” for ever.
    And I will make “THY SEED” as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall “THY SEED” also be numbered.
    Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”

    So from the information that YHVH provided ABRAM above, he probably thought, “YES” sometime in the future, SARAI and I are going to have children together, and by “all” that YHVH has said, this great nation that I will father will be innumerable.”
    But other than possibly thinking this, ABRAM wasn’t provided with any other information, (and he certainly had no clue regarding Ishmael or Isaac either).

    And then ABRAM OBEYED the Commandment from YHVH within Genesis 13:18..

    Now the next time that YHVH spoke to ABRAM was in a vision, where YHVH provides ABRAM with more information regarding him having children.
    These specifics are recorded within Genesis 15:1-5..

    The first thing that we must understand is, that we aren’t provided with how much time has elapsed since ABRAM departed from Haran to this time now.
    And though YHVH has basically told ABRAM that he is going to father children THREE times already, by saying that He will “make Abram a great nation” and that ABRAM’S “descendants and seed” will be “innumerable and inherit the land”, ABRAM was clearly frustrated.
    And Abram expresses this frustration to YHVH, when he says in Genesis 15:2,3.;

    “Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
    Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.”

    In Genesis 15:4., YHVH simply confirms what He has already previously said to ABRAM by saying,

    “This shall NOT be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of THINE OWN BOWELS shall be thine heir.”
    And then YHVH says in Genesis 15:5.;
    “Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and He said unto him, So shall THY SEED be.”

    So though this may have somehow been reassuring to ABRAM, he still HADN’T been provided with any other information that he didn’t already know.
    In Genesis 15:2., ABRAM is basically saying, “YHVH you said that I would become a father, but as it stands now, the only heir that I have is this steward of mine, Eliezer of Damascus! Where is this son that YOU told me, that would become my heir?”

    And ABRAM would have still believed, that somehow this heir would be conceived by his “WIFE” SARAI.
    And because this is what ABRAM would have believed, he would of definitely told SARAI all that YHVH had told him regarding an heir.
    But since no further information had been provided by YHVH, ABRAM certainly had no clue regarding anything in respects to Ishmael or Isaac.

    Now, after 10 years had passed since ABRAM had left Haran and entered Canaan, (Genesis 16:3.), SARAI approaches ABRAM in Genesis 16:2. with a plan.

    SARAI is frustrated too, and she says to ABRAM, “Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her.”

    What Genesis 16:2. confirms, is that ABRAM had indeed told SARAI that YHVH had told him that he would have a son as an heir.
    And that ABRAM and SARAI had been attempting to conceive a son, but that conception had been unsuccessful.
    So SARAI presented her alternative plan, “That maybe “SHE” might obtain a son through her Egyptian slave Hagar.”

    SARAI’S rationale and thought process being, “ABRAM, YHVH told you that “YOU” would have an “son and heir”.
    But HE didn’t mention anything about me?
    Maybe this “son and heir” is supposed to be provided by Hagar, and it is through her that “I” obtain a son?

    And it is ONLY because ABRAM had NOT been provided with any information to the contrary of what SARAI suggested by YHVH, that Abram then listened to what SARAI said, took Hagar as his wife, and then through that SLAVE conceived ISHMAEL.

    If ABRAM had been provided with any information by YHVH that SARAI would be the mother of ISAAC, and that ISAAC would be his heir, then he wouldn’t have DISOBYED YHVH and bothered with Hagar.
    ABRAM would have waited for YHVH to fulfill the promise that He had made.

    It is ONLY after 4 years later that the Promise of “ISAAC” is revealed in Genesis 17.
    Where you can read again, what I had written previously within my posts of 361276, November 22nd. @ 9:05 pm. and 361285, November 23rd. @ 4:52 am.

    You have said above, “There are times I change my opinion as time goes on”

    So I ask you again, “Do you still wish to stick with what you currently believe?”

    But before you respond, I also have a request.
    If you have someone that you respect and admire because of their Biblical knowledge, would you be willing to present to them what you currently believe, and what I have expressed above, to see what their opinion would be regarding “who’s” interpretation is more likely to be the truth?

    .

    • gm

      this argument of yours is getting ridiculous. you keep repeating the same argument with same lack of logic.

      god made a promise to abaham..of course this involved his real wife….hagar was sarahs’ idea, not god’s ….so just drop it

      if ishmael was good enough, god would not have opened sarahs womb and had her conceive

      god called ishmael a “Wild man.” not the child of the promise, who was Isaac…

      ishmael’s descendants are all wild…that is not the multitude god was referring to……the descendants of Isaac produced the nation of ISrael. and after jesus came, the gentiles were grafted in …now today there is a multitude that god was speaking of

      ishmaels descendants are mostly muslim and enemies of Isreal…there is no way to include them as the promised blessing to abraham unless they convert and get saved.

      any young woman, with few exceptions, can have a child….the miracle was that sarah could have one in old age.

      ishmael is irrelevant, except as an enemy of Israel ( and therefore of abraham)

  60. Hi Marianne,

    So let me understand this then….
    In the span of only 10 days, I have gone from making “good points” and being a “really deep thinker that you appreciate” to now “lacking logic”.
    I wonder how that occurred?

    You know, by “what” you say in all of your replies above, and by “what” you also chose to “not” reply to when requested, actually reveals a significant amount of information regarding “what” you personally believe.
    If you were more forthcoming and upfront with your belief on the header of your Home Page, I never would have commented here in the first place.

    Nevertheless, you speak about logic, and say in your last reply, “the descendants of Isaac produced the nation of Israel. And after Jesus came, the gentiles were grafted in”.

    So here’s a question;
    “If nonbelieving ethnic Israel, is NOT “born of the Spirit and therefore NOT saved”, then Jesus came, and Father God called “both Jew and Gentile” to “believe” and to be “born of the Spirit and be saved” and in doing so, become a “new second creation, then WHY would that now “believing and born of the Spirit new creation” be GRAFTED BACK INTO a “nonbelieving ethnic Israel, that is NOT “born of the Spirit, is NOT a “new second creation”, and therefore NOT saved”???

    Mark 2:21,22.;
    “No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse.And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.”

    “I am NOT grafted into ethnic Israel – I AM GRAFTED INTO CHRIST!”
    “CHRIST IS the ROOT”, NOT “nonbelieving ethnic Israel, that is NOT “born of the Spirit” is NOT a “new second creation” and NOT saved!”
    I am a “figurative” child of Abraham and Sarah’s, and I am “blessed” like Abraham because I live by Faith.

    .

    • gm

      good points were made so I acknowledged that. but your discussions are getting more convoluted, and take time to answer. you also seem to be “putting me to the test,” to see if I come up to your standards, which may or may not superior to mine….

      i do not mind, but I am very busy, and have many others to communicate with as well. I get back to you as I have the time. I am up front about what I believe, which is your problem, as there are some points where I disagree with you.

      I believe what the bible says, and do not force interpretations onto it that do not seem logical. this area of disagreement tends to irritate you.(like when I said isaac was promised before ishmael was born)..

      on this site, people have disagreed at times, and disagreement is allowed….but when you disagree with me, that is ok, but if I disagree with you, you criticize me….

      being grafted into christ is not in the bible.

      the concept of grafting in is here:

      13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

      14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

      15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

      16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

      17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root[b] of the olive tree,

      18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

      19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”

      20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

      21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

      22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

      23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

      24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.


      28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

      29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

      30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now[d] receive mercy.

      If it were not for Israel, there would be no christianity….we have to respect our roots, and pray for the salvation of Israel, so the unsaved can be grafted in again.

      as far as vine and branches go, that is a different concept:

      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

      but we are not “grafted” into Christ, we are naturally his branches if we are saved….the concept of grafting relates gentiles to Israel, while salvation relates believers to christ

      • Good day Marianne,

        Just what exactly is the claim that GM is attempting to make? I have read through the posts, but there is so much rhetoric that it makes it hard to pin down. And because of this, it reminds me a lot like Gregg’s line of reasoning, which is why I stopped corresponding with him. He always seemed to be departing from the truth, which is why I couldn’t bear reading his emails. Is it possible that GM is Gregg under a different name/avatar?

        • dmcal

          very possible..

        • dmcal52,

          Though You and I are in obvious disagreement in regards to what the SEAL’S are comprised of, (where you are welcome to believe what you wish to believe), the “point” that I have been attempting to make is, “That Father God’s Word is Living” and that it contains far more information than what can be understood merely on the surface of the text.

          Even the Jewish scholars understand this, where within the Hebrew approach to therapeutics there are four views of interpretation;
          PaRDeS or PRDS in both Hebrew and Aramaic, though referring especially to that of a “garden”, is also an “acronym”.

          Briefly, “Pashat”, is the (simple), literal and direct meaning of the text; “Remez”, is a (hint) of an allegorical significance; an indication of something deeper; “Drash”, is to (search) out an allegorical, typological application; and “Sod”, the (hidden) and mystical meaning.

          However, where the Jewish scholars unfortunately fall short in their study, is because they are attempting to interpret “God’s Spiritual Living Word” while still being “flesh and firstborns”, (see John 3:6.). TRUE revelation of God’s Word is only provided through and by the HOLY SPIRIT, (1 Corinthians 2:10-16.)
          These Jewish scholars are NOT “born of God’s Spirit” therefore, in spite of their dedication to God, they are incapable of interpreting scripture correctly.

          Hopefully you agree so far. (?)

          Therefore above, I provided what could be understood as the “definition” to Amos 3:7.
          And if you believe that Genesis 22:1-19., is not ONLY a recording of an historical event that literally took place, but that it is ALSO a “symbolic foreshadowing” of God the Father actually offering His Son Jesus at a later date, (with “Abraham being a “type” of God the Father” and with “Isaac being a “type” of Jesus”) then with that belief, you are in “agreement” with that “stated” definition.

          Now, if Father God has already done this “once” within the example above, wouldn’t He more than likely utilize this “symbolic foreshadowing” again, perhaps “many times”?

          It was then that I introduced another of these “similitudes and examples” regarding Abram within Genesis 12:1 through 14:17., where in this instance, Abram “symbolically represents and foreshadows” ethnic Israel before Jesus came, (who is symbolically represented by Melchizedek).

          It was then that you disappeared, (since I remind you of some individual named Greg, where I have already explained “why” I came here initially above), and Marianne replied with the correct answer to the question that I had posed, with “Melchizedek”.

          Though it was my intention at the time, to provide the verses within the Old Testament, (that in my opinion), provide evidence of there being “two resurrections” for those that believe in Jesus, (by God symbolically foreshadowing again), the discussion got off track.

          And it was then that I attempted to convey what I truly believe was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit regarding “Firsts and firstborns and Seconds and second born” and the importance that God places in these occurrence’s.
          As well, I also wished to convey the aspect of “though God the Father, the Son and Spirit are One, They are also Distinct from One Another”.

          I had stated previously that this perspective was very complex and difficult to articulate, but I thought that the premise was being followed by Marianne quite well, until it came to the aspect of “Ishmael and Isaac” where we reached an impasse.

          What I am curious about is…. “why” you posted what you did “instead” of “disagreeing” with Marianne and her belief that Abram had been informed by YHVH about “Isaac” long before ever conceiving Ishmael with Hagar?

          Or “why” you didn’t address her understanding that “Christians are grafted into Israel” rather than “INTO CHRIST”?

          Do you believe that Abram had been informed by YHVH about “Isaac” long before ever conceiving Ishmael with Hagar, and that “we” as Christians, are “grafted into Israel” rather than “INTO CHRIST” too?

          If you do, (though it will definitely be long), I suggest that you read my commentary on Romans 11:1-16. that I will post below.
          And I would also recommend that you discover “who” and “what” Hagar and Ishmael “symbolically represent” within Galatians 4:21. through 5:1. as well.

          .

          • My gosh! What in the world is your point?! Do you ever just get to the point of anything? What are you trying to prove? I am well aware of the relevance of Hagar/Ismael, Sarah/Issac. Why is it your assumption that I don’t. I am well aware that they represent two different covenants. I left the conversation because I don’t like debating with those who depend on rhetoric as a means to sound knowledgeable in order to prove a point.

            You say a lot without saying or proving anything.

  61. Marianne,

    There is a big difference between something “being extremely complex and difficult to follow” and being right or wrong.
    I had already stated previously, that this “new information” was very hard to articulate, and that it was also difficult to comprehend.

    When I have asked you questions, it has not necessarily been “putting you to the test”, but rather has more to do with what I had stated earlier regarding “advise”, which can be taken or tossed aside.

    If I simply tell you something, you can choose to receive it or not.
    However if I lead you down a path, where by logical extension you arrive at “the answer”, it carries far more weight than if I simply told you.

    I am curious though as to why you chose to not answer my last question directly, but chose instead to simply provide scripture and “start” at Romans 11:13. instead of Romans 11:1.?

    I will comment on Romans 11. and the aspect of being “grafted into Christ” tomorrow.

    .

  62. Marianne,

    I will present the following only once. And “YES” it is probably too long.
    If you don’t agree then that’s fine, I won’t press the issue and attempt to convince you as I did regarding Ishmael (the Firstborn) and Isaac (the Second born)
    I took the liberty to comment on Romans 11:1-16. where if by then, what Paul is saying is not understood, it would be pointless to continue any further.

    Regarding Romans 11.
    The “first” thing that must be established regarding the “context” of Romans 11, is what had just been stated previously by Paul within Romans 10.
    Paul has just said in his chastisement while referring to ethnic Israel, in 10:16.;

    “But “THEY” have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” (Isaiah 53:1.)
    17. “So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
    18. “But I say, have “THEY” not heard? Yes indeed: “Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world.” (Psalms 19:4.)
    19. “But I say, did “ISRAEL” not know? First Moses says: “I will provoke YOU (ISRAEL) to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move YOU (ISRAEL) to anger by a foolish nation.” (Deuteronomy 32:21.)
    20. “But Isaiah is very bold and says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.” (Isaiah 65:1.)
    21. “But to “ISRAEL” he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people (ISRAEL).” (Isaiah 65:2.)

    Above Paul is clearly chastising “ethnic Israel” by utilizing God’s Word from the Old Testament in “context”.
    He is saying that “THEY” have NOT believed the “Gospel” that “Jesus is the Christ”.
    And though “Faith” comes by “hearing” and that “hearing” by the Word of God, THEY haven’t HEARD, even though THEY had been told by Moses in Deuteronomy 32:21., and by in Isaiah 65:1. “what” would transpire between THEM and God, THEY are still a “disobedient and contrary people” (Isaiah 65:2.).

    The “second” thing that must be acknowledged and understood is that the “majority of Jewish individuals” (both when Paul wrote this epistle and today), DON’T believe that “Jesus is the Promised Christ”. Hence “why” it was Paul’s desire to save “some” of them, (Romans 10:1. and 11:14.).

    So having established that “context” let’s look at Romans 11: 1 through 5.

    1. “I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
    2. “God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,”
    3. “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? (1 Kings 19:10. and 14.)
    4. “But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal” (1 Kings 19:18.)
    5. “Even so then, “at this present time” there is a “REMNANT” according to the ELECTION OF GRACE.”

    Now, “what” Paul is expressing above in “context”, is that within ethnic Israel, there are “exceptions”.
    That there have been, and are, “INDIVIDUALS” from ethnic Israel that God has chosen, called and saved by GRACE, that have not been CAST AWAY, or rejected.

    He starts above with himself as being a prime example, being an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, and from the tribe of Benjamin, then continues on with the seven thousand from 1 Kings 19:18..

    At the time that Paul wrote this, there were thousands of Jews that God had chosen, called through GRACE, who believed in Jesus as being the Christ, yet at that time, “compared” to the totality of the “population” of ethnic Israel, he states that they are only a “REMNANT”.

    Romans 11:6.;
    “And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.”

    Here Paul is expressing a dichotomy.
    He is saying to believers in Jesus, that neither he or the seven thousand, or any of those Jewish individuals that would fall into the above category of the “REMNANT” were saved by their own ability to fulfill the Mosaic Law. All were chosen to be saved by God solely through GRACE.

    The actual Greek Morphological text renders this verse differently than the N.K.J.V. above.

    “εἰ δὲ χάριτι οὐκέτι ἐξ ἔργων ἐπεὶ ἡ χάρις οὐκέτι γίνεται χάρις”.

    Which in turn would transliterate as,
    “ei de chariti ouketi ex ergōn epei hē charis ouketi ginetai charis”.

    And be translated as,
    “and if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace no longer becomes grace.”

    Or in other words;
    “If “Jesus is the “end” of the Mosaic Law for righteousness”, (Romans 10:4.) and God’s Superior Righteousness is now received as a free gift through GRACE, then the hope of attaining righteousness, (where no mere man can be justified or declared to be righteous through the Mosaic Law) is no longer through works of the Mosaic Law. If it were, then GRACE wouldn’t be GRACE.

    Romans 11:7.;
    “What then? “ISRAEL” has not obtained what “IT” seeks; but “THE ELECT” have obtained “IT”, and the rest were blinded.”

    Here Paul, in still speaking of the same group of specific people, expresses a “distinction” between these people, where from this group “the MAJORITY”
    (who are JEWISH INDIVIDUALS that Paul refers to as ISRAEL) who have NOT obtained “IT”, but others, (who are ALSO JEWISH INDIVIDUALS) that Paul refers to as “THE ELECT” who have obtained “IT”.

    The question here is;
    “What was “IT” that the majority of ethnic Israel had sought that it DIDN’T OBTAIN, but the “ELECT” (the eklogḗ – the act of God’s free will by which before the foundation of the world (God’s foreknowledge) He decreed his blessings to certain (INDIVIDUAL) persons) DID OBTAIN?”

    The answer, would be, “That through GOD’S GRACE, the “ELECT” that were gleaned from ethnic Israel obtained, Justification, Vindication, Reconciliation, Righteousness and Salvation” by their Faith and Belief in JESUS CHRIST.

    Therefore Paul is saying that, “Ethnic Israel has NOT obtained the “tsĕdaqah” which it has sought through the Mosaic Law, but by the act of “God’s free will”, the “ELECT”, (eklogē – those INDIVIDUALS that God has chosen) HAVE obtained “Gods righteousness” through GRACE, and that the rest of those JEWISH INDIVIDUALS that WEREN’T chosen from “ethnic Israel”, were blinded.”
    Which is confirmed within the very next verse.

    Romans 11:8.;
    “Just as it is written: “God has given “THEM” a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear,To this very day.”
    (Deuteronomy 29:4. and Isaiah 29:10.)

    The “THEM” above is referring to the “REMAINING INDIVIDUALS” of ethnic Israel that God DIDN’T choose by “ELECTION – eklogḗ”.

    These “individuals” DON’T believe that Jesus is the Christ. “They” are NOT Saved or born of God’s Spirit, and “They” are NOT a New Second Creation.

    Romans 11:9.,10.;
    “And David says: “Let “THEIR” table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to “THEM”. Let “THEIR” eyes be darkened, so that “THEY” do not see, And bow down “THEIR” back always.”” (Psalms 69:22.,23.)

    Above Paul is utilizing what David says in Psalms 69:22.,23. to further support what God had said within Deuteronomy 29:4., 32:21. and Isaiah 29:10., 53:1. and 65:2..

    Romans 11:11.;
    “I say then, have THEY stumbled that THEY should fall? Certainly not! But through THEIR fall, to provoke THEM to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.”

    When Paul is referring to the “THEY”, “THEIR” and “THEM” above, he is referring to “the REMAINING INDIVIDUALS of ethnic Israel” that have still NOT believed in the “Gospel that Jesus is the Christ”.

    The first “fall” in this verse is from the Greek, πέσωσιν – piptō, or “perish and be lost”.
    The second “fall” is from the Greek, παραπτώματι – paraptōma, or “transgression, or deviation from truth and uprightness”.

    Therefore Paul has just questioned, “I say then, have ”the REMAINING INDIVIDUALS of ethnic Israel” stumbled that THEY should “perish and be lost”?
    And he answers that question with a resounding “Certainly not!”

    So what would have to occur for any of these “remaining Jewish individuals” to NOT “perish and be lost”?
    Like anyone else on this planet, that “ Jewish Individual” would have to accept JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR.

    Romans 11:12.;
    “Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more “THEIR FULLNESS”!”

    Now, where many people make the mistake here, is by presuming that when Paul refers to what is ethnic Israel as a WHOLE, they then conclude that the “how much more their fullness” is also referring to encompassing the WHOLE of ethnic Israel, rather than it referring to specific INDIVIDUALS.

    That error is tantamount to me saying, “I am a Gentile and have been called by God and saved by Grace, subsequently then, ALL GENTILES have been called by God and saved by Grace”, which is absurd.

    If that were the case, then what would be the point of Paul stating twice within Romans 10:1. and 11:14. that he hopes to save SOME OF THEM?
    That understanding would ALSO contradict Isaiah 10:22,23..

    What Paul is saying is;
    That if a former “unbelieving individual” of ethnic Israel that had “fallen” and been “cast away”, NOW has Faith and Believes in JESUS being the CHRIST, then “how much more THEIR (that specific individuals) fullness” in being accepted as a new second creation within the Body of JESUS.

    Romans 11:13.,14.;
    “For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if by any means I may provoke to jealousy “THOSE” who are my flesh and save some of “THEM”.”

    “THOSE” and “THEM” obviously referring to Paul’s “flesh” or his genealogical heritage of “ethnic Israel” that DON’T yet have Faith and Belief in JESUS.

    Romans 11:15.;
    “For if THEIR being CAST AWAY is the reconciling of the world, what will THEIR acceptance be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?”

    Again, what would have to occur for any of these “remaining Jewish individuals” to NOT be “CAST AWAY” and receive “LIFE rather than DEATH”?
    Like anyone else on this planet, that “ Jewish Individual” would have to accept JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR.

    So Paul is stating that it is his desire to “SAVE some individuals of ethnic Israel” that have been CAST AWAY, and he is telling the Gentiles believer’s, that when those Jewish individuals become SAVED, “THEY” will also receive LIFE rather than DEATH, (where “death” would be their current condition, just like anyone else on the planet without the SAVING GRACE OF JESUS, because these non-believers, [Jewish or not] are still in THEIR SIN).

    Paul is NOT contradicting what he says within Romans 11:1. regarding being “CAST AWAY”.
    All individuals, “JEW’S and GENTILE’S” must be Saved by JESUS CHRIST and HIS GRACE.
    Those that DON’T accept JESUS as their SAVIOUR are LOST period.

    Now it is here that we arrive at what is the “point of contention”.
    Whether we are grafted into “non-believing ethnic Israel” that is STILL IN THEIR SIN, or whether CHRISTIANS are grafted INTO CHRIST.

    Romans 11:16.;
    “For if the FIRSTFRUIT is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the ROOT is holy, so are the BRANCHES.”

    So what have we been told by Paul, (from Romans 10:16. through to Romans 11:16.), where Paul has utilized the Word of God from past Prophets, regarding “ethnic Israel”?

    That “THEY” have not ALL obeyed the gospel, Isaiah 53:1..

    That “THEY” didn’t understand what Moses said in Deuteronomy 32:21., or what God said through Isaiah within Isaiah 65:1..

    That “THEY” are a “disobedient and contrary people”, Isaiah 65:2..

    That God has given “THEM” a spirit of Stupor, Eyes that they should not see, and Ears that they should not hear,to this very day.” Deuteronomy 29:4. and Isaiah 29:10..

    That “THEIR” table has become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and recompense to “THEM”. And “THEIR” eyes have been darkened, so that “THEY” do not see, and that “THEY” bow down “THEIR” back always. Psalms 69:22.,23..
    Furthermore, we know that ethnic Israel by NOT believing that JESUS is the CHRIST, have NOT been SAVED, are NOT born of the SPIRIT, are NOT a New second Creation in CHRIST, and have NOT received the FORGIVENESS of HIS SHED BLOOD, so THEY are then consequently, STILL IN THEIR SIN.

    So HOW is it possible for THEM to be a HOLY FIRSTFRUIT?

    We know that God had made it clear, that for ethnic Israel to be considered to be a “HOLY PEOPLE”, they first had to FULFILL the Mosaic Law Covenant.

    This without error execution of the Mosaic Law Covenant was their responsibility and subsequent conditionality, for that “HOLY PEOPLE” designation to come to fruition.

    There is Exodus 19:6., where God says that ethnic Israel will be a HOLY NATION “IF” they “will obey His voice and keep His Covenant”, Exodus 19:5..

    There is Deuteronomy 7:6., where Moses tells ethnic Israel that they are a HOLY PEOPLE “IF” they “love God and keep His Commandments to a thousand generations” Deuteronomy 7:9., and “keep the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments” Deuteronomy 7:11..

    There is Deuteronomy 14:2., which is in the midst of a long and extensive list of conditionality which must be fulfilled, as is Deuteronomy 26:19., and 28:9., which is followed by Deuteronomy 28:13., “IF” ethnic Israel “listens to the Commandments of God, and observes them ALL, and does them ALL”.

    Ethnic Israel was UNABLE to accomplish this, so THEY by NOT believing in JESUS, are NOT a HOLY PEOPLE. (See 1 Peter 2:7-10.)

    JESUS CHRIST IS HOLY.
    HE was the very FIRSTFRUIT of man TO BE HOLY.

    JESUS was raised on Reishit Katzir the day following the first day of Unleavened Bread, the “beginning of the Harvest” and the “Feast of FIRSTFRUITS”.

    Paul refers to JESUS as the FIRSTFRUITS again, within 1 Corinthians 15:20-23.
    And he refers to believers in Christ as “firstfruits” within 1 Corinthians 16:15., as does James in James 1:18.

    All of this is relevant to “FIRSTBORN” as well.
    Where Paul refers to JESUS as FIRSTBORN in Romans 8:29.
    The “FIRSTBORN over all of creation” in Colossians 1:15. and 18.

    The author of Hebrews calls JESUS the FIRSTBORN in Hebrews 1:6., and 12:23.
    And John refers to JESUS as the FIRSTBORN from the dead within Revelation 1:5.

    CHRISTIAN’S are grafted INTO CHRIST, NOT ethnic Israel.
    .

  63. Marianne and dmcal52,

    Look, before I leave here, I would like to say this;

    In 1 Corinthians 15:20. Paul says;
    “But now Christ is RISEN FROM THE DEAD, and has BECOME the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep.”

    In Colossians 1:18. Paul says;
    “And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, that in all things He may have the preeminence.”

    In Revelation 1:5., John says;
    “and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,”

    Yet we know, (or at least should know) that JESUS wasn’t “LITERALLY”, the “first to be raised” from the DEAD.

    In the Old First Testament there is…..

    1 Kings 17:8-24., where we have Elijah raising a child that was DEAD.

    in 2 Kings 4:8-37., we have Elisha, raising a child that was DEAD.

    In 2 Kings 13:21., we have a man that was DEAD, (when while in the process of being buried in Elisha’s tomb), he touched the bones of Elisha and was raised from the DEAD.

    In the New Second Testament there is….

    Within Matthew 9:18-26., Mark 5:22-43., and Luke 8:41-56., we have JESUS raising Jairus’s 12 year old daughter FROM the DEAD.

    Then in John 11:1-44., JESUS raises His dear friend Lazarus of Bethany, FROM the DEAD.

    So above there a 5 examples which serve to demonstrate that JESUS wasn’t “LITERALLY”, the “first to be raised” FROM the DEAD.

    However the Word of God is true, therefore “JESUS was and is, “THE FIRSTFRUITS and FIRSTBORN” FROM the DEAD.
    Which then means, that THIS is signifying something OTHER than the 5 examples above.

    When you both come to understand WHAT the “FIRSTFRUITS and FIRSTBORN FROM the DEAD” actually means, and HOW it was possible for JESUS to receive the designation of being without “BLEMISH” or “SPOT” and as being “WITHOUT SIN”, (2 Corinthians 5:21., Hebrews 4:15., 7:26,27., 9:14., 1 Peter 1:19., 2:22., and 1 John 3:5.), while HE was ALSO born under the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 4:4.), then you just might make the connection that, JESUS was the very FIRST Man (as the Second Adam) to ACCOMPLISH SOMETHING that NO man had done before.

    GOOD LUCK.

    • gm

      yes we understand that. you are stating the obvious

      • Then “WHY” do YOU and dmcal52, still believe that we are “grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel” rather than INTO CHRIST.

        Ethnic Israel is still in THEIR SIN and THEY are still UNDER the MOSAIC LAW.
        CHRISTIAN’S (both JEW and GENTILE), have through JESUS and HIS GRACE, been REDEEMED form the MOSAIC LAW, (Galatians 3:13., & 4:4,5.)

        In my experience the only people that believe that CHRISTIAN’S are GRAFTED into ISRAEL are “LAW KEEPERS” and those that DON’T actually believe that JESUS created HIS OWN “NEW COVENANT”.

        And it has also been my experience that debating with these people is pointless.
        So I will pray for You and for dmcal52.
        But this is my last post here.

        .

        • that misconception of yours has been addressed already

        • Hello GM,

          You said:
          “Then “WHY” do YOU and dmcal52, still believe that we are “grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel” rather than INTO CHRIST.”

          Please show me where i have ever said that I was grafted into non-believing ethnic Israel. My life is in Christ.

          • I already explained that “grafting in” refers to gentiles being grafted into the wild olive branch ( above)… that described a relationship between gentiles and jews, as without judaism, there would be no christianity….christianity has Israel roots in faith

            salvation is seen as the vine ( Jesus) and the branches (saved believers)

  64. I believe that this is true. There are many people who believe this.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

 
%d bloggers like this: