Shattering the Holy People

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“Shatter” is such a horrible word, when it applies to human beings.

Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.  (Daniel 12:7)

I can see God shattering the wicked, but why shatter those whom He calls “holy?”

Definition of SHATTER

transitive verb

1

: to cause to drop or be dispersed

2

a : to break at once into pieces

b : to damage badly : ruin

3

: to cause the disruption or annihilation of : demolish

intransitive verb

1

: to break apart : disintegrate

2

: to drop off parts (as leaves, petals, or fruit)

I can imagine a powerful force, like a speeding car, crashing into something that is delicate, like a crystal glass, and with no defense.

The force hits the glass, and it immediately explodes and is destroyed.

Daniel also writes:

“At that time Michael shall stand up, 
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered
,
Everyone who is found written in the book. (Daniel 12:1)

So, if God will deliver his people, why does he shatter them first, especially when He calls them “holy,” and so should be worthy of protection.?

God also calls believers in Yahshua (Jesus) holy, so are they in for the same type of shattering also?

Why does deliverance come out of being totally destroyed, shattered, ruined?

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Holiness

Although God calls us holy, this is actually our potential, not our reality.

Mankind is a mixture of the flesh and spirit.

Both pull at him for dominance.

Holiness is the state of being holy or sacred. Holiness is being clean or pure, to be holy is to be like God.

This is God’s divine plan for man, but he is not there yet.

Man starts with faith and repentance.

He grows and learns the Word of God.

He may fast and pray.

He may be zealous, with good works, producing good fruit.

He may be a wonderful, caring person.

But, until he is tested, his flesh nature is still with him.

And, even after he is tested, much flesh can still remain.

reflections on Christ - crucifixion

Testing

How much testing is enough to produce holiness?

Yahshua (Jesus) was already perfect, and he was crucified.

This fact should humble us all.

Who are we to try to claim holiness, when we have in no way come close to being what He was, and doing what He did?

Have we been tested like He was?

The answer is no, and so we should not think we are greater than our Master, that we should escape the testing of our lives and flesh.

The more flesh we have, the more testing we will have to go through, in faith, before deliverance comes.

This is why many prayers are not answered right away for deliverance, because God will not deliver us so that we can remain in the flesh.

If we are being tested, we have to pass the test, or we will be tested again and again.

There are many Christians who have led relatively trouble free lives, and have passed on to the next life.

Others like them are still living, but may have tests ahead of them.

Each person is unique.

Testing may come in small doses at a time, and if one passes each test, one proceeds to the next small test.

This is the ideal way, and is based a lot on our positive attitude and response.

But many resist testing.

Then, when tests come, they are bigger, and more difficult to pass.

For others, the testing evolves from small tests and graduating to larger ones, to advance the person to a new level, closer to holiness.

Some are immediately hit with huge tests, and they pass, but they die. This is seen in the martyrdom of innocent adults and children around the world. They only had one test to pass, and they passed when they kept their faith, and gave up their lives.

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The Seed that Dies

A seed is a natural thing, that has to be buried in the ground, and its shell broken and shattered in the ground by absorbing water, before it can send up a shoot, and become a real plant.

This is called germination.

When finished, there is no visible evidence of the seed.

When God puts His spirit in us, He plants a seed.

It then has to germinate, and our flesh shell and contents need to be shattered and transformed, so that we can “send up our shoots” and become holy.

When finished, there is no visible evidence of the flesh.

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Untested Israel in Jacob’s Trouble

If we escape this time, we are blessed.

If we are to go through the Great Tribulation, then it is for our purification and holiness.

This time will include both natural Israel, and untested believers.

And this time, in my definition, does not include the time of wrath, which begins with the Trumpets and ends with the Vials.

Both the righteous and unrighteous are described in the seals 3 and 5, but only the wicked are described as present in the Trumpets and Vials.

Holiness comes at a cost, and with testing. We do not just say a prayer and sing songs, and be happy.

Holiness comes when our flesh dies to self, when we even forget who we are, and all that is left is the divine nature God has imparted to us.

Jesus (Yahshua) showed us the way.

It is a narrow path, and most will not travel it, because they want life to be convenient, permissive and satisfying their needs.

But for those willing to follow the path of holiness, there is a Savior who will walk beside us, and help us through any trial or tribulation.

All we have to do is call upon His Name, Yahshua (Jesus), and He will come and deliver us.

 


1,065 Responses to “Shattering the Holy People”

  1. Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

    Holiness is obtained through faith in the finished work of Jesus.

    2 Thessalonians 2:6-8
    6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

    He who restrains is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is IN the Believers!

    Matthew 28
    18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

    Jesus is always with us in the Person of the Holy Spirit. Therefore since He is in us, we have all authority on Earth.

    Revelation 3:20
    Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

    Psalm 110
    The Lord says to my Lord: (Father says to the Son[Jesus])
    “Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
    (also can be translated, “trampled under foot”)
    5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
    He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
    6 He will judge among the nations,
    He will fill them with corpses,
    He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
    7 He will drink from the brook by the wayside; (I live in Brookline)
    Therefore He will lift up His head.

    We have a job to do!

    Michael

  2. I agree that holiness is imparted by faith in Jesus, as in the Ephesians quote given by Michael. Then why does testing continue after one has faith? I don’t know but I expect it could be a matter of timing. I believe
    all Christians will be raised from the dead at the same time, and all who are yet alive, as Paul puts it, will also be transformed into holy persons at the same time (slightly after the dead arise). Those who have lived since Jesus’ time will all become transformed and holy at the same time. Now,
    our holiness is imputed from Jesus’. We don’t have it except as a pledge.

    It may be because of this coming together of the Bride of Christ at one time that individuals have to wait, and waiting means that the fallenness of Creation may trap them into suffering, some more than others. But the
    one who comes to the field last will get similar wages to those who have been in the hot dry fields all day. This is the will of God. And also it is a statement that the suffering of this life is of no “measurable” account, since all who come to God reap the same transformation on the day of the Lord’s coming.

    The Bible does seem to indicate that, apart from this basic transformation which all reap at the end of the day’s labor, the day’s suffering, their are
    greater and smaller rewards given (crowns) in Heaven. Now that is way beyond my capacity to interpret, just as most of what goes on in Heaven is way beyond my capacity, and I do not think it is given in greater detail in scripture. Some people have tried to make interpretations of this, but I am not at this time in agreement with their interpretations. In Heaven, and in the Millennium, we will all play a part and my part will be perfect for me, and everyone else’s will be perfect for him.

    What I described above concerns the Bride of Christ. You have also asked why the holy people (Jews) will need to be shattered in the tribulation. I think it is to awaken them. Remember, they have been put partially to sleep when they did not accept their Messiah. Some, of course, will accept Him and their fate will probably be different, unless one body (the Jews as one body) must all suffer together.

  3. Whenever I see that passage, two others come to mind:

    1. John 16:2 ~ They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God.

    –The term “holy” could be a sarcastic twist, referring to the ones who fancy themselves holy and doing His will without really knowing Him.

    2. Revelation 11:3-8 ~ “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

    These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pita will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, and their dead bodies (actually the Greek says a singular “body”) will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

  4. Beautiful post Marianne. Whom the Lord Loves he rebukes (disciplines, corrects) As a Father disciplines a son.

    I disagree with you regarding the trumpets not including the righteous though. (Your last comments) “They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” (fifth trumpet) (Rev. 9:4) So unless you see the 144k as unrighteous, you should reword this. Sorry, not trying to be a stickler for details.

    • that is ok dru….the post is up for discussion

      • Holy in the original language usually refers to UNIQUENESS, set apart.
        And that Scripture didn’t say he was going to shatter anyone. Read it again – shatter the POWER of the HOLY people.
        There is a group of people on the earth today with unprecedented regard and unheard of power over much of the political world today.
        Israel. The Jewish Lobby. Huge number of “Jews”, completely disproportionate to the number living in the US, that are in the Senate, Congress, and the executive government.
        Their power will be broken.
        You have no idea how happy this makes me.

  5. Yes He is a good GOD who carries our burdens

  6. V.3..Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be REVEALED, the son of perdition;
    2 Thessalonians 2 is not about a rapture..It is about the great falling away from Christianity whereby men fall away from Christ and become sons of perdition…

    .
    V. 4..Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    V.4 shows Satan indwells these fallen Christians temple (their bodies) and claims he is god, specifically the God of Abraham..

    V.6..And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be REVEALED in his time
    V.6 assumes we understand Satan is bound in hell for 1000 years and will be REVEALED when the great falling away occurs…Rev 20-3..

    V. 7..For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way
    V.7..This mystery of iniquity was already at work then… This mystery is Satan indwelling these and claiming he is the God of Abraham as did those of John 8..Those that continue to believe that Allah is the god of Abraham will be removed from the way of Christ, hence the great falling away..
    .
    V. 8..And then shall that Wicked be REVEALED, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    Note the word REVEALED IN VERSES. 3.6.8…..
    It tells us It will be revealed that Satan is indwelling some and claiming he is the God of Abraham…

    Allah is one and the same as the ancient moon god named SIN.. This is why these are called MAN OF SIN…

    Allah alias sin the moon god becomes flesh…hence the MOON IS TURNED TO BLOOD..

  7. 2 Thessalians 2 is showing us a little about the scattering,-shattering of the Holy People..
    I think we are approaching the final three and one half years now…I also think the obama creature will dismiss the Bible and enthrone his koran and will force the people to bow to the allah beast..

  8. The reasons could vary per individual. Our Heavenly Father meets us where we are. He knows each hair on our head & the life He has planned for us before we were conceived.
    The #2 “intransitive” definition above states, to drop off parts (leaves, petals, fruit). This would seem to be the pruning the Lord does for us to become more like Him.
    Then there is the refining, as in silver that is ours by the Lord so we can shine! But we are human & will never be completely Holy here on earth. I don’t think there is an absolute that we can fully grasp here, but we don’t need to.
    With repentance & prayer we are forgiven, there is no condemnation except what we may do to ourselves (or others) as human thought can do, which is not Holy.
    The Lord knows our hearts. If we struggle with a sin, for example, a repeated sin or addiction, we can go to Him & ask for help. It’s important to understand His love for us & that we are forgiven by His grace, not our deeds…
    There are 90,000,000 (!) people out of work on the U.S.A…I’m sure many are christians…is it their fault? In some cases, maybe. Some people are referring to poverty here as the new genocide, all a part of the plan to depopulate… We know God allows things to happen that are beyond our understanding.
    Like you said Marianne, we have a Savior who will come beside us, just call on Him. He is faithful so we need to be faithful as well!
    The road is narrow, but that does not mean the Lord expects perfection…He made us human. There are people who feel defeated by the “perfectionism” reasoning. That is not what God expects.
    For many of us, we realize we are in the land of the giants but God has a plan to deliver us to the Promiseland
    Be blessed..be strong…shaolm.
    Elle

  9. Hello Marianne and all,

    “I can see God shattering the wicked, but why shatter those whom He calls “holy?”

    The answer to your question is found in the book of Daniel:

    “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. (seventy seven year periods)

    Seven ‘sevens’:
    Jerusalem is rebuilt. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. (Initiated and completed by Nehemiah and the remnants)

    Sixty-Two ‘sevens’:
    After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. (Completed – Christ crucified)

    Seven ‘sevens’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ completed sixty-nine of the seventy ‘sevens’. Where’s the last set of seven?

    “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” (Still future)

    Seven ‘sevens to rebuild and restore Jerusalem were completed from the issuing of the decree by king Artaxerxes (Neh.2:7 – Letters to rebuild)

    After seven ‘sevens and at the end of Sixty-two ‘sevens’ the Lord was crucified fulfilling sixty-nine of the sevens. From that time God left off with the fulfillment of the the last ‘seven’ and began to build the church, which is still on-going. Once the church has been completed the restrainer will be removed which is synonymous with the resurrection and catching away taking place, then that man of lawlessness will be revealed who will initiate that last seven by making his covenant with many. The last seven will deal with Israel in completing that last seven, which will altimately finish transgression, put an end to sin, atone for wickedness, bring in everlasting righteousnes, seal up vision and prophecy. At the same time, God will be dealing with the rest of the world through the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God. The last seven is also known as “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble” and “The time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning until now or shall ever be” and also known as “The Hour of Trial” and well known as “The day of the Lord.”

    That last seven is approaching quickly, which means the resurrection and catching away draws near, for it is what initiates the day of the Lord and we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. Once we are gone, then God will take up where He left off with that last ‘seven,’ completing His plan for Israel and putting and end to all world governments as is prophecied in Dan 2:31-35:

    ““Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace.
    But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth”

    The statue represents the main world ruling kingdoms from the beginning to the end. The Rock that was cut out is Jesus Christ who smashes the feet of the statue and the whole thing comes crumbling down without leaving a trace (the end of human government). The Rock becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is in reference to the Lord’s kingdom during the last thousand years which begins when he returns to the earth after the seventh bowl judgment has been poured out. For after the sixth bowl judgment has been poured out Jesus says,

    “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as to not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

  10. Hi Marriane,

    Re: “If we are to go through the Great Tribulation, then it is for our purification and holiness.”

    First as I mentioned before, Scipture states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. Those who have already received Christ have been purified.

    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and [purify] us from [all] unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

    This is the same mistake that Roman Catholicism makes in regards to Purgatory, stating that we must go there to be purified in the flames in order to enter heaven. But, flames do not purify, righteous blood purifies and nothing else. Flames are for punishment and Jesus already took the full punishment upon himself that we deserve by his death, for the wages of sin is death. The debt has been paid and there is no need for another payment on our part. Believing this is faith on our part. God is not going to send his church through his wrath, which will be running parallel to all that the beast will be doing, so you can’t separate tribulation from the wrath of God.

    In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul defines the chronological order of the events relating to the day of the Lord. First is the event of the resurrection and catching away, then when they say “peace and safety,” then comes sudden destruction and they shall shall not escape! But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should take you by suprise. The words “But you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of not escaping and the way of escape will be By what Paul had previously mentioned, by the resurrection and catching away.

    “And this time, in my definition, does not include the time of wrath, which begins with the Trumpets and ends with the Vials. ”

    Regarding the above, this is the error that you continue to make, that is, by not including the seals as part of God’s wrath, especially when Jesus is the one opening the seals. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments comprise the entire wrath of God. We will not even be here to see the man of lawlessness when he is revealed, for the Lord will have already decended and we will have been gathered to him in the air with those who will have previously been resurrected.

    “Both the righteous and unrighteous are described in the seals 3 and 5, but only the wicked are described as present in the Trumpets and Vials.”

    Regarding the above, those righeous that are mentioned are the great tribulation saints, which is not the church. If you’ll notice, not once are the great tribulation saints referred to as the church, but as Hagios/saints. The last time the word church is used is at the very end of chapter 3 and then never again within the narrative.

    In Revelation chapters 2 thru 3 John writes to the church and they are never referred to has Hagios/saints. In Rev.7:9-17, we are introduced to a group wearing white robes that no man can count referred to by one of the elders as the Great Tribulation Saints. When the elder’s asks John, “These in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” this tells us number one, the fact that he is even asking John this question tells us that this group is not the church and second, regarding John’s reply “Sir, you know” would tell us that John didn’t recognize them and that becasue they are not the church, but are a different group that is being introduced as the great tribulation saints.

    “Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.”

    The true believer has repented of these things above and is wrestling to overcome them. In the mean time, our sins are covered as we continue from faith to faith. God is not going to pour his wrath out upon those who have already received Christ and have repented, for God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thes.5:9)

    • Hi Don,

      I believe that both You and Marianne are right.
      For one group they are “purified by His Blood”, and for another group, they are “purified through the Tribulation”.

      Regarding The Church and the Tribulation Saints; (and whether the Seals are to be considered to be also “The Wrath of God”).
      Though Revelation 6:16., does state “wrath of the Lamb”, lets look at the cyclical nature of Scripture and of Gods chosen people.

      First, I agree with you that the “Church, Assembly, or the Ekklēsia” will be gathered or raptured, but I believe that it will consist of only a “remnant” of the Church.

      Israel was always guilty of “receiving understanding, pledging allegiance to follow God, then falling away”. They did this time and time again. Each time they would disobey the Covenant and “fall away”, they would then be judged. And that “judgement” was based upon their behavior in “how well they followed God’s Commandments”.

      So, now we are under a New and Better Covenant of Grace. However, we still are charged with being obedient to numerous responsibilities that are duly noted within Scripture. The Liberty that we have now refers to, “(exousia), the power of choice”, as in 1 Corinthians 8:9. However, “(eleutheria), as in 2 Corinthians 3:17., means, that “true liberty is living as we should, not as we please”.

      Now it is obvious that the “Body, Assembly or Church”, is guilty of “falling away”, (the same as Israel did), and the majority have not, “sanctified, or set themselves apart” any different from the secular population of the world. However, God in His mercy saw those of Israel that were faithful to Him, and has chosen from them “A REMNANT”. Will not a Just and Holy Father, and Son do the same for the Church?
      I believe that Scripture states that the Seals are a time of “Testing and Trial” for all the people that inhabit the earth, as well as an “indifferent, or “foolish” portion of the Church”.

      Scripture states the Church will be the first to be judged.
      “For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
      And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” 1 Peter 4:17,18.

      The seven epistles to the seven churches, (seven denoting the complete or whole church), express the particular criteria that will be utilized within this “first” judgement. And those that fall within the category of the church of Philadelphia, (those that DO obey the gospel of God), ARE THE REMNANT OF THE CHURCH.
      “Philadelphia” itself being defined from the Greek as meaning, “brotherly love”, or those that practice “agapē”.”
      “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:34,35.

      In Revelation 3:10., we have some significant information to substantiate this premise. First we have, “Because thou hast kept the word of my “patience”.
      The translated “patience” there being derived from the Greek “ὑπομονή, transliterated as hypomonē”, defined as, “steadfastness, constancy, endurance, perseverance, one who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings.”

      Or in other words, “One who IS Faithful and HAS proven him or herself to be an Overcomer!”

      Secondly we have, “I also will keep thee from the hour, (or time) of “temptation”, and “to try” them that dwell upon the earth”.
      Temptation is derived from the Greek, “πειρασμός or peirasmos”, which can primarily be defined as a, “trial or proving. A trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, by an adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness”.

      The English “to try” above is derived from “πειράζω or peirazō”, and is essentially defined as the same as “peirasmos”, “to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining quality. To try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin. Of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his or her character and the steadfastness of their faith.”

      Well, Yeshua already stated unequivocally that this classification of individual followers, (those of Philadelphia), have already done this above.
      “Because “thou hast kept”, (or attended to carefully, to observe and be obedient), the word of my “patience”.
      That is the reason that He has placed before them an “open door”, because they had already proven themselves as being Faithful.

      The remainder of that verse, “and to try “them that dwell” upon the earth”.
      The English “them that dwell” is derived from the Greek “κατοικέω or katoikeō”, and can be simply defined as meaning “to dwell or be”. However, what would be the necessity of Yeshua to stipulate that? I believe that the context of the verse is more than suggesting, that since they, (Philadelphia), will have an “open door” by having already proven themselves to be overcomers, that they, (Philadelphia) will NOT be dwelling on the earth when this time of testing occurs.

      So we agree on that particular point.

      However, will the whole of the church be taken, or only an “accounted worthy remnant”?

      Again, 1 Peter 4:17,18., clearly states that “the church will be judged first”. That from this judgement an “open door” will be left for some, (the wise), that have already proven themselves worthy, (Matthew 25:1-13., Luke 21:36. and Revelation 3:10., & 4:1.).
      But what about all of those from the seven Church’s that end up “falling away” into the category of the Church of Laodicea?

      Below I have re-translated a couple of verses, (Revelation 3:8-11., and Revelation 3:15-19.), into a more contemporary vernacular for ease of understanding.

      Revelation 3:8-11., to the Church of Philadelphia;

      (8) I know of your deeds and works: Behold, I grant and bestow to you a gift. Before you is an open door, and nothing has the power to be able to shut it! Because you have a little moral power and excellence of soul, and have attended carefully to keep My word, and have not denied My Name.

      (9) Behold, I will make those from the assembly of satan, (which profess themselves to be Jews and are not but lie), Behold, I will make them to be present before you, and to bow down before your feet, and kiss your hand in homage and reverence. And they will come to know and understand that I love and am well pleased with you.

      (10) Because you have attended to carefully take care and observe my Word, by remaining steadfast, patient, full of perseverance and endurance in your faith, I will then attend carefully and guard you from the time of trial and proving which is about to arise upon the people of the whole world, to try and test the faith of all of those that dwell upon the earth.

      (11) Behold, I am returning quickly. Take hold of and be master of that which you have, so that “nothing” can remove your crown of eternal blessedness.

      Then in contrast, there is Revelation 3:15-19., regarding the Laodiceans:

      (15) I know of your deeds and works and that you are neither cold or hot. I would wish that you were either cold or hot.

      (16) So, because you are lukewarm and are neither cold or hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.

      (17) Because you say, “since I am wealthy and have an abundance of possessions, and have need of nothing”, and don’t know that you are wretched, to be pitied and miserable, poor, blind and naked.

      (18) I then advise you to take counsel together, you abandoned and barren people. You must purchase from me gold which has been earned, by being tried in the fire. Though you are angry, perceiving this to be unfair as treatment in being left in the fire, it is in order so that you can be rich with abundance, and receive your brilliant white garments and then wear them so the shame and dishonour of your nakedness is not visible. But anoint the eyes of your mind with salve in order that you will understand,

      (19) that as great as my love is, your fault has been exposed, So I have to chastise you so that you will learn. Therefore be zealous in your pursuit of being good, and repent from your past sins.

      So, from the above we have the church or assembly of Philadelphia being commended and offered a gift, (a door through which to walk through), to provide protection from a worldwide trial and testing that will come upon the whole earth. And as referenced to above within brackets, this does appear to be similar to the very same “door” that the “wise virgins” that went to the wedding with the bridegroom of Matthew 25: 10. entered in, and the last time that any door is mentioned whatsoever in Revelation, is in verse 4:1.

      Now instead of the Laodiceans also being allowed to enter through this “door”, it appears that they, being indifferent to their salvation, and instead relying on their own self sufficiency, rather than obeying the word of the Lord Yeshua, are being vomited out. But out of what? Have they then lost their salvation, and had their names blotted out of the Book of Life?
      Or do they as the above verses suggest, have another opportunity to earn their white garments? And if so, wouldn’t that be by the refining aspects of trials and the Tribulation, or as utilized as it has been above, “by “fire”? (Which is Marianne’s understanding.)

      This would be in contrast to those from Philadelphia, who earned their “white garments” by being obedient and purified by “His blood”. (Which is your understanding.)

      Clearly by what is written above, some will receive protection and enter through a “door”, whereas others will now have to earn their opportunity that they perhaps took for granted and squandered the first time. So, if Revelation 4:1., correlates to the Church Remnant that has ALREADY PROVEN themselves to be Faithful enough to be “caught up”, then the Seals, represent the Trials and Testing. (For why would a Just God have need to test AGAIN, those He has already declared in Revelation 3:10., to have proven their faithfulness?)

      So in closing, I agree with you fully that a portion of the Church will be gathered first during a judgement, (1 Peter 4:17,18.), and that “a remnant” of the Church will be given the opportunity to proceed through the “open door”, and that others, (not being a part of that Remnant), will now have to earn their way into the Millennial Kingdom. However I believe that the Seals that Yeshua opens represent the “Trials and Testing” for those on the Earth and those from the Church that have been left behind. I also believe that Revelation 7:9-17., consists of those that passed the Test, and will now be spared from the actual wrath of God on a unbelieving people.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious Savior and KING.
      Amen.

      • Beautiful Buck,
        See my email to you…I wrote this before you posted this so I think you will see where we agree, and when exactly this occurs. I will send it to marianne but need some feedback from you first.

      • Hey Accepted and all,

        “I believe that both You and Marianne are right.
        For one group they are “purified by His Blood”, and for another group, they are “purified through the Tribulation”.

        Forgive me, but I don’t believe that. I believe that unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins. Scripture also states that “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will foreve us our sins and [purify us from all unrighteousness]. Persecution and death is just par for the course and cannot purify a person. They will be rewarded for their enduring and overcoming, but they are not purified by it. I believe that the Great tribulaion saints are purified the same way that the church is and that by faith in his shed blood.

        As an example, let’s say that there were some during the Great Tribulation that didn’t believe in Christ, but refused to worship the beast and receive his mark. Even though they were persecuted and put to death, they still wouldn’t inherit eternal life and that because they didn’t believe in the One who shed his blood for them. Furthermore, anyone who came before Jesus trying to enter in because they were presecuted or put to death would be turned away, because it is by his shed blood that we have been reconciled. Being persecuted and put to death is just part of the hazard of being a believer just like it was for the first century church and cannot purify a person.

        • I also wanted to point something out and that because this keeps resurfacing, that is, the rebukes and the promises listed in each of the letters to the seven churches is to be applied to all of the churches. What I mean is that, It is not only the church of Philidelphia that the promise is made to, but to all of the churches and individuals within the church, that is, whoever overcomes. For example, if the Ephesian church repented and returned to their first love, then the same promise made to the Philidelphia church to keep them from the hour of trial is to Ephesus as well and the same for all the churches who repent of their rebukes. All promises mentioned in all the letters to the churches are to be applied to all the churches and to the entire church age as well. That being said, if you were an individual from the church of Ephesus and you returned to your first love, then not only would you receive the promise made to Ephesus, but also the promises made to the other six churches as well.

          • Hi Don,

            My dear brother, I believe you may have gotten, “stuck on a particular word or concept”, and therefore didn’t fully understand the rest of what I am trying to convey.
            You and I are not necessarily in disagreement here.
            You will notice though, that my understanding has changed significantly over this past year, where I truly believe that it is now more accurate. I do truly consider this to be a blessing and a answer to prayer. So please read the following with an open mind and heart.

            (1) My initial point was, that by what Scripture reveals in Revelation 3: 10., there will be a “Trial and a Testing” for all of those that dwell upon the earth. And since the Seals that Yeshua opens are the very first act that occurs after Revelation 4:1., then they must logically consist of, and represent, this “Trial and Testing” period, and are then, not to be considered the actual “wrath”.

            This can easily be substantiated by the following;
            Paul states in verses “Romans 5:9., 1 Thessalonians 1:10., & 5:10.”, that “we are justified by Yeshua’s Blood, and not appointed to, but will rather be delivered”, from the wrath. Yet the Tribulation Saints of Revelation 7:9-17., have just gone through Seals 1 through 6.
            How is that logically possible, if the Seals are Gods wrath? Wouldn’t that be a complete contradiction to what Paul has stated above?

            Consider the following;

            Though in Revelation 3:10., the word “Faith” has not been included within any English Version of Bible, when one takes into account the fulness of the Greek definitions regarding both the transliterated “peirasmos and peirazō” this “omission” then, would have obviously be done in error.

            Though already provided above in my last post, the definitions are;

            (1) “Peirasmos”, “a trial or proving. A trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, by an adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness”.

            (2) “Peirazō”, “to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining quality. To try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin. Of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his or her character and the steadfastness of their faith.”

            This is why within my re-translation of the Greek for that verse, I worded it as rendered below;
            “(10) Because you have attended to carefully take care and observe my Word, by remaining steadfast, patient, full of perseverance and endurance in your faith, I will then attend carefully and guard you from the time of trial and proving which is about to arise upon the people of the whole world, to try and test the “faith” of all of those that dwell upon the earth.”

            This“Trial and Testing” period is not simply an arbitrary happenstance, but rather is conducted with an intention and purpose. That being, to “Test the Faith by Trial” of all of those that happen to dwell upon the earth at that particular appointed time.

            But Faith in what?
            Well, that God the Father exists as IS, and that Yeshua Is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and that He died and shed His Blood, for the remission of sins.

            Yeshua Himself posed that very question at the end of Luke 18:8., by asking, “Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find “faith” on the earth?”

            Now “faith” itself is not simply to be understood as having belief in something. And this is where I believe that the majority of the church have taken their “current” state of “liberty and grace” for granted, and have for the most part, “fallen away”.
            I may have a desire and “believe” that I could run a Marathon for example, but unless I were to say, change my diet and begin a training regiment specifically geared to that endeavour, I highly doubt that I would be able to accomplish that goal.

            And I know that you would agree that as followers of Yeshua, we also have to live a different life style than the rest of the world, by being obedient to the many responsibilities that the Word expresses that we should keep, and remain focused upon Him as our desire and goal. It is in the actual demonstration and application of how we live, (rather in simply that of belief), that expresses our Testimony of Yeshua. Belief is simply the beginning. Sanctification and the actual demonstration of that belief is how we are supposed to live. (Hence James 1:21-27., and 2:14-26.)

            So, How do we then reconcile what Paul had said regarding “Wrath” as opposed to the “Seals” then, and whether or not these “Seals” do indeed represent that of the “Trial and Testing” period instead?
            Well, when Yeshua comes in the clouds for this gathering, “Will He find Faith?”
            Will He find those where He is their first love, (and though not perfect), they do their very best in being obedient to Him? The answer to that is a resounding “Yes!”

            He chooses those individuals that are accounted worthy for this resurrection, (Luke 20:35,36., & 21:36.), from all of the Overcomers no matter which of the seven Churches that they come from, that now have attained “membership” in the Church of Philadelphia.
            (This is addressing your post of April 10th. @ 3:55 pm.)
            “Yes”I agree, the seven Churches denote “the complete or whole Church, Ekklesia, or Assembly”. However this first judgement, (1 Peter 4:17,18.), is to decide who it is that will be “accounted worthy”, (Luke 20:35,36. & 21:36.), to be able to proceed through that “open door”, (Matthew 25:10., Revelation 3:8., and 4:1.), and those that are actual “Overcomers and have Demonstrated their Faith”, (also Revelation 3:8.) will only be a “Remnant” of the Church.

            (This is why we never see the word “ekklēsia” again within the Book of Revelation until the end. It is not only because a “portion, or remnant” has been taken, but also because you can’t utilize the expression of something, when that something is no longer complete. For example, if I were to pull the “hard drive” out of your computer, it may still look like a computer but it isn’t. It can’t function as a computer because it is incomplete. Therefore to still call it a computer would be inaccurate.)

            Now, of all the individuals of the seven Churches that have not “Demonstrated their Faith”, or have “Not been Overcomers”, they have now unfortunately attained “membership” in that of the Church of Laodicea. And they are now “vomited out”, (or left behind), to as Scripture says, “To earn their entry by Trials and Testing”.

            Now to address you initial disagreement above within your first post of April 10th. @ 2:42 pm., I believe that you may not have taken something extremely important into consideration first. That is what I and others refer to as being, “the Age of Grace” that we are currently in.
            You are correct and I agree with you fully where you say, “that their is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood.” And I would also agree that at this time, “we do definitely have the opportunity to confess our sins, and be cleansed from all unrighteousness by the shedding of Yeshua’s Blood”.

            However, here are 2 questions;

            (1) Is this “Age of Grace” still in effect after this “gathering of those that had demonstrated their Faith”?

            (2) And as well, can an individual attain “purification” by the shedding of their “own blood” to prove their Faith in Yeshua?

            Allow for me to address question number 2 first, for in doing so it should also address question 1.
            Lets look at Daniel 11:31-35., first. Starting at the end of verse 32 where I have placed the (……) designation and the text within quotations, but specifically at verse 35.

            31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate .
            32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: …… “but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
            33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
            34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
            35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, “to try them, and to purge, and to make them white”, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

            Now within Daniel 11:33., it says that some with understanding shall die by various ways, which verse 35 states is to “try them, and to purge, and to make them white.”

            The above “to try them, to purge them, and to make them white” appears to support that a “demonstrative act”, which for some will include a “shedding of their own blood”, will be required of the tribulation saints, to therefore “purify” them and make them white.
            The English word “try” being translated from the transliterated Hebrew, “tsaraph”, (Strong’s 6884) defined primarily as to, “smelt, refine and test.”, and to “purge” from the transliterated Hebrew, “barar”, (Strong’s 1305) defined primarily as to, “to purify, select, polish, choose, purge, cleanse or make bright, test or prove.”

            Now lets look at Revelation 6:9-11, (which I believe correlates directly with the above prophecy of Daniel)….

            ”9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were “slain” for the word of God, and for the “testimony” which they held:
            10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge “our blood” on them that dwell on the earth?
            11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

            Then there is Revelation 14:13.
            ”And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead “which die in the Lord from henceforth”: Yea, saith the “Spirit”, that they may rest from their labours; and their “works” do follow them.”

            Does not the above verse, (in maintaining the context of the narrative) suggest, or even emphasize, that the patience of the saints, and their opportunity to be “blessed”, (from this point on, (henceforth)), is solely dependant upon their “labours”, and that these “works” will follow them?

            The English “Blessed” above is translated from the Greek “μακάριος” transliterated as “makarios”, (Strong’s 3107) and it is defined as; “blessed, happy”.

            “Henceforth”, or, (from henceforth) is derived from the Greek “ἀπάρτι” transliterated as “aparti” (Strong’s 534) and it is defined as; “from now on. henceforth.”

            The Greek word that has been translated into “labours” here is “κόπος” transliterated as “kopos”, (Strong’s 2873), and its definition is as follows; “(1) a beating. (2) a beating of the breast with grief and sorrow. (3) labour (a) trouble (1) to cause one trouble and make work for him. (b) intense labour united with trouble and toil.”

            The English “works” has been translated from the Greek “ἔργον” transliterated as “ergon” (Strong’s 2041). It is defined as;
            (1) business, employment, that which one is occupied. (a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, or undertaking.
            (2) any product whatsoever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. (3) an act, or deed, a thing done. the idea of working is emphasised in opposition to that which is less than work.”
            (Ergon has also been translated into English as “work” 152 times, “deed” 22 times, “doing” once (1) and “labour” once (1) within the King James.)

            And the English “do follow them” has been translated from the Greek “ἀκολουθέω μετά αὐτός” transliterated as “akoloutheō meta autos”, (Strong’s 190, 3326, and 846 respectively). The definitions of these words in order are;
            “akoloutheō – (1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him. (2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple. (a) side with his party.”
            “meta – (1) with, after, behind.”
            “autos – (1) himself, herself, themselves, itself. (2) he, she, it. (3) the same.”

            I believe, (which also now addresses question 1 above), is that it appears that “the Age of Grace” that we are currently under now, has ended after the “gathering” takes place. And that the tribulation saints must now prove their worthiness, (while being Tested through the Trial of the Seals), by performing and demonstrating their faith by works, and by possibly being put to death because of them. Ergo, their “own blood and sacrifice for their faith in Yeshua”, may now be required for their acceptance by God, to “earn their white garments” rather than just their belief.

            Can’t prove any of the above, but I am more or less simply posting Scripture here and placing the pieces of the puzzle where they seem to fit.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Sufficient Savior.

            Amen.

            P.S. Sorry about the length of this post.🙂

            • Don, Gregg,
              I would like to add to what Gregg said here. In a study that is independent of what Accepted has done here (Mine is not as well done, mind you), I have come to the same conclusion as accepted regarding the Philadelphia and Laodicean church and an early rapture, as well as a later one. (sixth seal). Please Note that this raptured remnant holds the key to that door.

              In my own personal revelation, I also believe that the overcomers within the Laodicean church will be the only overcomers to be spued out with the rest of that church. There is a reason for that. Just as Jesus used his “spittle” to make the blind see, he will also use what he has spued out to preach his message to the World and to Israel in that time of trial.

              That being said, The Holy Spirit in me is in agreement with what Gregg has posted here. My “Tuk” is off to you, Buck.

              God bless, both of you.

        • Don,
          I think the concept of refining by fire is found throughout scripture. This does not dismiss the importance of the blood of Christ in the Process. Just the concept of there being overcomers and nonovercomers should make this point. Many a believer is being tested and refined here and now. Progressive sanctification is what theologians call this. When we are saved the blood of Jesus sanctifies and cleans us and covers all our sin (instant sanctification) As we grow in Christ The Holy Spirit sanctifies us so that we desire to sin no more. Overcoming the flesh. Making straight our path. Perfecting our love. To deny this process is to dwell in a state of not growing in Christ.

          When we become Christians we make Jesus our Lord (Master). In this state of submission, the potter will make with the clay whatever he wishes. When he is done making that vessel he will fire it in a furnace, and make it hardened and usefull to his purpose. There are many people in the churches who have not made Jesus Lord. They may claim him as saviour, But not as Lord, because they have not surrendered their own will to his will.

          The following quote by A.W. Tozier should illustrate this.

          “It has been the unanimous testimony of the greatest Christian souls that the nearer they drew to God the more acute became their consciousness of sin and their personal unworthiness. The Purest souls never knew how pure they were and the greatest saints never guessed that they were great. The very thought that they were Good or great would have been rejected by them as a temptation of the devil.

          They were so engrossed with gazing upon the face of God that they spent scarce a moment looking at themselves. They were suspended in the sweet paradox of spiritual awareness where they knew that they were clean through the blood of the Lamb and yet felt that they deserved only death and hell as their just reward. This feeling is strong in the writings of Paul and is found also in most devotional books and among the greatest and most loved Hymns.”

          The Hymn below is one of them.

          God bless

          • Hi Dru,

            Regardless, persecution refines a person, their hope and strengthens their faith, but it does not purify a person from sin. The wages of sin is death and so without the grace of God we would simply be paying for what we would owe. Without the grace of God which comes through the shed blood of Christ we cannot be saved. Only the blood of Christ can purify/cleanse us from sin. We cannot earn it by being persecuted or dying for Christ. If anyone were to rely on entering eternal life because they were persecuted and died, they would not enter in and because they would be relying on their own works. They would be like that group that Jesus speaks of who will say, “But, Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophecy in your name, and didn’t we drive out demons in your name and do many miracles in your name?” And Jesus will say, “Depart from me you evil doers, I never knew you!” Why? Because their trusting in what they did and not in his shed blood. If I was to be persecuted and killed for the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, I would not rely on that for entry into eternal life, but on what Christ did for me. Yes, persecution and tribulation brings one closer to God and puts them more in the spirit, but it cannot cleanse a person of sin and you cannot be saved by those.

            • Don
              We are not denying the fact that “nothing but the blood of Jesus…can wash away sin”. This is not about that. This is about surrender and yielding to his will. I even stated above: ” When we are saved the blood of Jesus sanctifies and cleans us and covers all our sin (instant sanctification)”.
              All is all…Past present and Future.

              Why would Jesus allow his disciple to all face this persecution, and death? Would he not have been better served if he rescued them and kept them healthy so that they could preach the Gospel till they were old? Or perhaps their death was their testimony of the power of Jesus blood to overcome the world. They obeyed, at the expense of their lives.

              What You do not understand is that surrendering our will is not a “work”. It is a calling, and an acceptence of that calling. We are not relying on this calling to wash our sins. It does, however, Perfect our Love….To Love one another as Christ Loved us.

              You know that Christ washed away all our sins by his blood. But many of the people out there proclaim to believe this yet they still carry the burden of their sin instead of leaving it at the foot of the cross. Surrendering to his will is Just that. As Jesus prayed before his betrayal, not my will, but thine. It is the act of faith in the fact that he has forgiven us, and we no longer need to carry that burden, that we overcome. Read revelation 12:11…It is all there. That is my calling….
              Be blessed.

              • Hi Dru,

                Re:
                “Why would Jesus allow his disciple to all face this persecution, and death? Would he not have been better served if he rescued them and kept them healthy so that they could preach the Gospel till they were old? Or perhaps their death was their testimony of the power of Jesus blood to overcome the world. They obeyed, at the expense of their lives. ”

                I don’t understand why you wrote the above, as it has nothing to do with what I had posted. What are you talking about here?

                Re:
                “What You do not understand is that surrendering our will is not a “work”. It is a calling, and an acceptence of that calling. We are not relying on this calling to wash our sins”

                I never said that surrendering our will was a work, so I don’t know where you got this from.

                • Don
                  Persecution PERFECTS our Love. You said above, regarding persecution: “but it does not purify a person from sin.” I was agreeing with this, as the Blood of Jesus accomplishes this. But that there is a role for trial and persecution in perfecting our Love. I think we have a linguistic issue here. Purification and perfecting are two different concepts intricately linked to the cross and the shed blood. Do you remember the passage of the dog returning to its vomi?. Purification is when the house is cleaned, perfecting is when after that house is cleaned we fill it with his love, instead of leaving it empty for those demons to reenter with all their buddies.

                  My response was based on the following which you wrote:

                  ” We cannot earn it by being persecuted or dying for Christ. If anyone were to rely on entering eternal life because they were persecuted and died, they would not enter in and because they would be relying on their own works. ” To which I responded, ” that surrendering our will is not a “work”. If we are called upon to be persecuted and die for him, we are accepting that calling.

                  You are talking about salvation, this post is talking about the fruit of that salvation. Like I said, this is a linguistic misunderstanding on your part. I am sorry if I misconstrued your remarks in trying to make this point to you. I believe that “accepted” was making this same point to you as well.
                  God bless.

                  • Hi Don,

                    Please consider the following for I believe it reflects upon what Dru is saying above.

                    We, (You, Dru and myself), all agree that the seven epistles from Yeshua to the seven Assembly’s or Churches in Revelation 2:1. to 3:22. are speaking to the whole Body from its inception in Acts 2:2-4. up to an including, until the Lord returns in the clouds, (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17.) to “gather” the first group that have proven themselves to be Overcomers.

                    Out of all of the Assembly’s, each individual that has proven themselves as being Faithful and has “kept the word of His patience”, (as defined in my post above), will then fall into the category of the “Assembly of Philadelphia”. These will walk through the “door” that Yeshua has left open for them to protect them from the “Trial and Testing” period that will come to test all of the people that dwell on the earth at that time.

                    Conversely, out of all of the Assembly’s, each individual that has NOT proven themselves as being Faithful and has NOT “kept the word of His patience”, will then fall into the category of the “Assembly of Laodicea”, and will now have to earn their position and white garments, (as defined in my post above as well).

                    Yet if we take into consideration Isaiah 46:9,10., “Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”, then we must also realize that God has never left His people without having guidance. He has always provided in that respect.

                    Now we also know that the word “Ekklēsia” is not mentioned within the Book of Revelation after verse 22, and has instead, been substituted with the word “Saints”, or Hagios. Which within its definition would refer to “individuals”, rather than that of an “Assembly of people”, (and I have also provided some of my thoughts regarding as to “why?”, within one of my posts above).

                    (I have also found it interesting that within the definition of the transliterated Greek, “hagios” that though its primary definition would be that of being “Holy, or being a Holy one”, also contains the connotation by its root word etymology of “hagos”, to it being a detestable or awful thing as well?
                    Could this be because of those that fall into the Assembly of Laodicea, now having to earn their white garments? And if they do they are considered to be “Holy”, and if they don’t, they are considered to be “awful”? Possibly?)

                    However in maintaining the topic of discussion, lets look at the Assembly of Smyrna, Revelation 2:8-11.
                    Yeshua doesn’t chastise them at all. Yet tells them that they are rich, (in spite of their trials and sufferings). He also tells them to “not fear any of the things that they are about to suffer, and that satan is going to throw some of them into prison, and that they will be tried and tested for a ten day period, but if they are faithful unto death Yeshua will give them the “crown of life”, and they that Overcome will not be hurt by the second death”.

                    This Assembly appears to have a specific “calling”. Though not chastised at all, they don’t have the opportunity to walk through that “open door” that the Assembly of Philadelphia” gets to walk through. Why is that?

                    Is it possible that they are also “spit out” to be the “guides for those that have become blind to again help them see”? (re; Mark 8:22,23. and John 9:1-7.) They would appear to be the very same Saints as is described with Revelation 6:9-11.

                    This is not necessarily based upon merit that these have been chosen for this, (though God knows full well, “who and how” they will demonstrate their Faith as a Testimony for the Lord Yeshua beforehand). It is rather their “calling” and their purpose for their Creation to perform His pleasure and will.

                    Any way’s I hope that this helps and perhaps clarifies what you are saying Dru?

                    Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod, our KING of Glory.
                    Amen.

        • true, we are all saved by the blood……the timing is different for the 2 groups

    • yes. we will go through tribulation, but not wrath

      These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. John 16:33

      this makes sense…look at the history of the church….all the early martyrs…..etc.

      tribulation is man’s evil against man……wrath is the anger of God against sinners, which is a lot worse.

      the seals described afflictions that believers have been going through for 2000 years. it will just climax soon.

      I am working on a post now, which reflects my thoughts about Christ return…….prophecies from Joel, Zechariah, etc that indicate even Israel’s time of trouble ( great tribulation) will be over by 6th seal.

      • Hi Marianne,

        “yes. we will go through tribulation, but not wrath”

        This is what I keep trying to explain to you. The tribulation that the Lord said that we would go through are the typical trials and tibulations because of our faith in Jesus Christ and his word. You are trying to separate tribulation from wrath by making the first six seals tribulation, with the trumpets and bowl judgments representing the wrath of God. But what I have been telling you is that, the tribulation that takes place at the hands of the beast and the false prophet cannot be divided, as the wrath of God will be running parallel over the entire period . The seals, trumpets and bowls judgments are all to be considered the wrath of God and should not be chopped up in order to fit your interpretation. They should be looked at as three sets of seven plagues of wrath.

        The tribulation that your are speaking of that the first century church whent through was initiated by men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background. So all that the church suffered was specifically at the hands of men, but there was no wrath of God upon the church. On the other hand, during that last seven years, God’s wrath will cover the entire period and there will be tribulation for Israel and the great tribulation saints taking place at the same time. Since we, the church, are not appointed to suffer wrath, we cannot be here during this period at all, but must be removed.

        The seals are being opened by Christ, that is, he is the One initiating the plagues and therefore, according to you, He would be unleashing them upon his church. The result of the first four seals is 1/4 of the earth’s population be killed, this is part of God’s wrath. Israel’s tribulation will not be over by the sixth seal, for at the middle of the seven, when the abomination is set up, that is when the dragon sends a flood (army) after the woman (Israel) and she is cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years. While this is going on, the beast makes war and conquers the Great triblation saints for that last 3 1/2 years. Also, since I believe that the first seal/white horse and rider represents that man of lawlessness, then the church must be gone before he is revealed. Regarding the seals, they are still future and have yet to begin and that because, as I said, the first seal is that antichirst and he has not yet been revealed. And when he is revealed, it won’t be in secret, but openly. I believe that when the first seal is opened, it will coincide with his making that covenant with many.

        • dmcal

          the wrath is not announced until after the 6th seal.

          things like antichrist spirit, war, famine, death , martyrdom and disease have been experienced by believers for 2000 years….so if this is wrath, then they have not been spared.

          Matth 24 explains the first 6 seals as something the believers will experience.

          https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/tribulation-in-matthew-and-revelation-2/

          He also explains that after this period of tribulation, we will see him return

        • dmcal, you wrote this:

          “since I believe that the first seal/white horse and rider represents that man of lawlessness, then the church must be gone before he is revealed.”

          No, the church is NOT gone before the man of lawlessness is revealed.

          What you wrote contradicts what Paul wrote here in 2 thessalonians

          2 thess 2:1: “Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,”(as we know, the “gathering together” is the rapture.)

          Continuing….

          2 thess 2:3: Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

          2Th 2:4: who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

          My point:
          The “man of sin” has to be revealed before ANYONE is raptured.

          1) the falling away happens

          2) the man of sin (lawlessness) is revealed

          3) THEN sometime after that, the rapture can occur. But not before.

          Paul said it.

          (Matthew Perri doesn’t like that Paul wrote that but it still stands)

  11. Take the time to read the story on Spafford below the video. I thought it appropriate.

  12. In case you cannot get to it from here, I copied it here:

    Uploaded on Mar 13, 2011

    Horatio G. Spafford was known as a sincere, devout Christian. He was the father of four daughters, an active member of the Presbyterian church, and a loyal friend and supporter of D. L. Moody and other evangelical leaders of his day.

    In November 1873, Spafford decided to take his entire family to Europe for a vacation, intending also to assist Moody in his evangelistic work once he arrived there. However, Spafford was unexpectedly detained in Chicago due to urgent business concerns, but decided to send his family aboard the S.S. Ville du Harve as scheduled. Midway through the trans-Atlantic voyage, S.S. Ville du Harve was struck by the English vessel Loch Earn and eventually foundered. Spafford’s four daughters—Anna, eleven; Maggie, nine; Bessie, seven; and Tanetta, two—were among the 226 who perished in the aftermath. Mrs. Spafford, one of the few who were spared, sent her husband the heartbreaking telegram: “Saved alone.”

    Spafford immediately sailed for England to join his grief-stricken wife. As his ship passed the approximate location where his daughters had drowned, his deep sorrow mingled with his unwavering faith in God’s goodness caused him to compose this hymn

  13. Marianne,
    Are you Ok? We have not heard from you for a while?

  14. To all that have ears to hear the mystery
    Saved, Sanctified, and Filled with the Holy Ghost =Is the New Birth

    LUKE 10:20 In this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are “Written in Heaven“.
    LUKE 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
    LUKE 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

    1. Notice in the 3 scriptures Jesus said “Names are Written in Heaven”
    2. And that it was a “Hidden mystery” from the “wise and prudent” = intellectual man and his learning
    3. Jesus says it was to be “revealed to babes” then ver 22 The Son has to “reveal it to the person” – It is revealed by the SPIRIT – of Jesus Christ

    1 The modern phrases of today are always using the Word – Saved, Sanctified, and Filled with the Holy Ghost. Producing about 1000 different interpretations of what a New Birth really is.
    2 Saved in simple terms means- Justified and delivered = I’m not guilty. And we know that Jesus was talking to all His disciples here and Judas among them. He indeed had his name written in the Book of life. Yet fell and sold out and died a “double death“. Unbelievers are Born once but die twice — Believers are Born twice and die once.
    3. You have your names written in Heaven. But we all know that they can be took off the book as well.
    REV. 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the “book of life“, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    4 Yet Jesus said He was a devil to begin with. Amen – he was. But all people have a choice in this life. To chose salvation as Christ died for the whole world. Bible says that. Note- mankind qualifies to transform into devils by choice. Just as mankind qualifies to transform into Christ’s. By choice.
    Point being – Name on the Book is not a eternal security at all. It can be taken off. There are only 2 books in Heaven.
    1. Book of Life and the —— 2. Lambs book of life – what’s it about then.
    5. Every Person is in a progression in two directions= Heaven or Hell.
    6. There is a Natural Life and a Spiritual life. Only 2 no in betweens.
    7. Only Two sowings of seed. Good and Evil spirits
    Matt. 13:11-13 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you= the disciples to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    “It’s a serious thing to Hear the Truth and laugh at it and reject it.”

    The Natural birth
    Just like a real birth. It takes 1st. a “Seed” sown, Life is only begun, The seed turned into a flesh and BLOOD body but still in the Womb of the life canal.

    2nd. Step Then the WATER breaks, It had life but if it never came out of the womb it could die prematurely in the womb.

    Then comes the 3rd. Process. It is Born and comes forth out of the womb, and a “Spirit” is waiting to enter it or it will die as well. There are 3 aspects to a New Spiritual birth as well. Judas never got born to begin with. He died never having his seed produce anything but death. There for he had to die twice. A natural death and a Spiritual death called the 2nd death in Rev. 21:8

    6. He was called to be Saved -Justified and delivered – But he himself took his name off the Book of Life. By not Overcoming his greed, motives, ambitions etc. etc. caused him to NOT OVERCOME as the other disciples. He Never was at Pentecost to receive the Holy Spirit with the others. Even though his name at one time was “Written in Heaven”
    7. Point being – He was actually called by Jesus but never was of them though he had his name on the Book. He could not progress to Pentecost. Now lets see if he was sanctified as well.

    1. Now again Jesus talking and teaching with his disciples all their.
    JOHN 15:3- Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Clean means sanctified – Judas was there also. With all the disciples.
    2. “Peter” was sitting with the disciples as well. He was Saved, and Sanctified. As all of them were.
    3. But here is what Jesus told Peter right before the crucifixion.

    LUKE 22:32-34 -But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
    33. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
    34. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

    Converted defined –
    1. 4762 – and 5157; — turn (one) about — be converted
    ( to turn the back to one; used of one who no longer cares for another); metaph. to turn one’s self from one’s course of conduct, i.e. to change one’s mind – from carnal to Spiritual
    2. 5157 trope {to turn}; — 1. a turning: of the heavenly bodies WOW?
    3. Notice 2 BODIES – You were born with a Natural Terrestrial body plus the Celestial Body was in you as well. Your conscience told on you before you every made a choice to serve Satan or Jesus.
    Before Pentecost – They were in His presence – After Pentecost Jesus was living “in them” —- big-big difference – He said He had to go away and then He would come back again and that was at Pentecost. In Spirit: A Spirit can come into a man but not a flesh body. The Holy Spirit is what takes the WHOLE COMPLETE man over to the IMAGE of Jesus Christ.

    JOHN 15:3- Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    4. Abide IN me, and I IN YOU. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    Jh. 15:3 Jesus was talking to All 12 disciples. Told them they “were clean” =“sanctified” Just hearing the WORD- The WORD was the “Spoken word of God” coming from the Flesh Body of the Son of God = Jesus.
    Just being in His Presence hearing the word He said they were Clean meaning =Sanctified. Cause hearing the Word will “set you apart“ for service. Now Complete Conversion is still in progress.

    Peter told Jesus – I will die for you Lord, Jesus said you will deny me. But Peter never had enough strength in him to do it. And cursed Him and lied.
    We know they were all still carnal minded – They were living in the Dimension of the flesh and human spirit – they all seeking fame and position and rank like carnal world acts like. Like many professing believers do today cause they never “Understood” what Jesus was talking about. They could not decipher the Spiritual from the Carnal. Till Pentecost. Hearing the Word is “Understanding the Word”. That is the sign of a New Birth. Holy Ghost does not fight Holy Ghost – it will agree. Truth is not by what the multitudes say or believe. But it is what Jesus says.

    1. Even being Saved=justified and Sanctified-cleaned up for service they were still in the process of becoming a Brand New Creation. Jesus told Peter when you are converted then strengthen the brethren. Peter had the
    2. Revelation of the Son of God and it was Jesus Christ. Upon this revelation will I build my church. That is the ROCK – the revelation of the spirit not given by flesh and blood-carnal knowledge but by the Spirit of God.
    3. They could not recognize their Celestial man=Holy Spirit until Jesus CAME INTO THEM, IN HIM and I IN YOU. They all were not fully converted as of yet. They had not experienced the complete turning over of the flesh man to the Celestial man 1 Cor. 15 = Holy Spirit = a turning: of the heavenly bodies is turning your Natural man over to the Celestial man and letting HIM rule with authority over the natural flesh man‘s mind, soul, and body thus transforming the person into the Image of Jesus Christ.
    This also is the “Rapture” of your Spirit, Soul, and Body changes. To the will of God instead of the Will of the Worldly Nations which the Bible says is a Beast, Dragon, Satan, etc. etc. the Bottomless pit.

    Jh. 15:4- Abide IN me, and I IN YOU. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
    1. Jesus is Prophesying to them of Pentecost – receiving HIM = the Holy Spirit – notice IN me — I IN you — Without me you can do nothing.
    2. And we know they did not understand His Death, burial, and resurrection yet. Because they like millions today think he came to set up a natural kingdom then and kill all the bad evil people and they would reign with him in that NATURAL KINGDOM.
    3. But Israel had already been chosen to do that and felled miserably. Jesus came to gather His People into a Brand New Spiritual Kingdom where all his citizens has HIS spirit in them. And yes dogs are still outside the City and Not eating of the tree of life nor Overcoming this world Rev. 2 – Rev. 22.. The New Israel or CITY has a New dwelling Temple that is not made by hands.

    Jh. 15:5- I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth IN ME, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
    1. The Word is Spirit and LIFE Jh. 6:33 and it is what Quickens you = . 2. In Jh. 6:33 Jesus had not fulfilled all of the Promises spoke of the Messiah yet. He still had to go to the Cross and suffer and die and RISE before all scriptures were fulfilled.
    3. Then the out pouring of the Holy Ghost could come INTO ALL flesh. Jesus had to shed His blood and Resurrect to the Father and then come back again to give His followers the New birth. Starting the 2nd. Coming of Christ. The disciples ate with him and drank with him after He arose from the dead. The Kingdom was Coming into them in a few short days on Pentecost.
    4. At Pentecost 120 received the Holy Ghost and Fire. Now they are Little Jesus’ that is what they were literally called before they called them Christians at Antioch.
    5. The Quickening is a “resurrection” as well. Look it up if you want to.
    We all got to have a resurrection in THIS LIFE – Jesus is the Resurrection and Life. THE RESURRECTION IS A PERSON IN YOU – called Jesus Christ the mystery IN YOU Col. 1:27-29 . Not in your presence anymore but Lives IN YOU.

    1. Father Creator -Heavenly Spirit “Above man“-
    2. Jesus -God the Son walking “among man” in Flesh body.
    3. Holy Ghost “IN man” Creating Gods perfect Bride. That is the plan of Salvation —– anything else is a fraud. Once the Holy Ghost seals you you have the eternal security the rest of your life. YOU are SEALED AWAY. Seated In heavenly places with the authority of kings in the Kingdom.

    Jh. 15:6- If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and MEN – gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Gather defined means – There are 2 gatherings of people.
    1. There are two burnings – which one you want to be in.

    • Tom,

      Will you please do me a favour?
      Will you please go to this website, http://www.hebrew4christians.net/About_HFC/Site_News/site_news.html and scroll down until you come to a post titled with the heading, “Prophetic Significance of Israel”, and read that.

      Especially the portion that has to do with that of the theology of Preterism.

      Thanks.

      • Accepted

        Here we go again. If you do not believe what I say and believe. It’s ok. Just forget about me. Im doing just fine. Just cause I have studied Preterism does not make me a full fledged Preterist. I believe the Revealed Word of God by the Spirit of God Spoken by the scriptures Jesus said. I’ve been at it for 40 years now. I’ve covered about every doctrine and belief there is. Have you an open mind enough to do the same dear brother.
        I have studied Hal Lindsey’s books years ago. I have studied Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagins, Hagee, Perry Stone, all the favorite Assemblies of God, and Charismatics of today. And many, many, others in the Charismatic realm and most all denominations.
        God bless you for your concern. Im a blessed man.
        Bro. Ty

    • Hi Tom,

      I would just make a correction on what you wrote and that being:

      “There are only 2 books in Heaven.
      1. Book of Life and the —— 2. Lambs book of life – what’s it about then.”

      Believing that there are two books is the same mistake that Tim Lahaye makes, along with his claim that there are two groups of 144,000. The Lambs book of life is just another designation for the ‘Book of Life.” Simply stated, there is not a Book of Life and a Lambs Book of Life, for they are one and the same, just referred to differently.

      Also, regarding the following:

      “13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

      Jesus was referring to Israel in regards to him speaking in parables and this in fulfillment of the following prophecy from Isaiah:

      “In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

      “ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For [this people’s] heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ ”

      The reference to “This people” is to Israel. Notice what he says next to his disciples and to the rest of the church age:

      “But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.”

      Through the word of God and the Holy Spirit, we get to read the parables and have the meaning to them as well.

      • I might also add that there are other books in heaven besides the Book of Life, which will be used at the great white throne judgment to judge the sins of the lost dead, as can be seen from the following:

        “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and [books] were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

        From reading the verse above, there are at least three books mentioned and that by stating “books” in the plural and also mentioning the book of life seperately.

  15. To all:
    Here is something I wrote, which pertains to this post. as well as the debate on the Noah and the rapture page. Take it for what its worth. It is very personal to me as I have undergone many of these struggles in my walk with him over the past couple of years. If perhaps you find yourself struggling with these things, perhaps this will help.

    We are the bride of Christ. As the Bride, we are to submit to the groom. In the epistle of James, we have the following instruction.

    4 “You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? “Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit “that he has made to dwell in us”? 6 But “he gives more grace. Therefore it says, ““God opposes the proud, but “gives grace to the humble.” 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 “Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. “Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and “purify your hearts, “you double-minded. 9 “Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 “Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you. (James 4:4-9)

    What we find here is that our groom desires our submission to God…He Jealously yearns for this, and when we do this, he will Draw near to the bride.

    Paul agrees in the negative with this assessment with regard to Israel, who failed to submit to God’s righteousness, and were thereby deemed “Adulterous”

    Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them {Israel} is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that “they have a zeal for God, “but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of “the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 10:1-4)

    In every marriage, there is a time of trial and testing. Within a marriage, the result of this time of testing can be one of three outcomes.

    The first is divorce and separation. This is the “easy” road. (Though many Divorcees will say it is not easy) In this outcome, the test is not overcome, nor is it even faced in its fullness. (Aka Escapism)

    The Second is to Keep the relationship intact, But the adversity is never overcome, and the Love for the other partner is diminished to the point of non existence. Many of these relationships are psychologically, emotionally and physically abusive, or at the very best, tepid, and unromantic. (Aka Avoidance, Lukewarmness)

    The third outcome is the God intended one for the marriage. Where the adversity is faced head on, and overcome by both partners, cleaving together as one. In this relationship, the adversity faced, has the bride and groom “draw closer” to each other. If the bread winner Loses their Job, The relationship grows stronger. If One partner suffers from serious illness, The couple grows closer to each other. If the couple ends up homeless, they stick together. If a loved one dies, they grieve together, and for each other.

    The key in this last outcome is that one party in the relationship has set aside their own anxieties, desires, needs, and wants in return for the Love of the other person that is facing that adversity. Jesus epitomized this. This is selfless love. This is trust. This is Faith in the fact that that person will overcome the adversity, and even if they do not, The love for that person supercedes that failure. “For richer for poorer, in sickness and health” is how most vows are stated at the wedding.

    In the traditional relationship, this “submission” has been the response called for by the bride. Brides submit to husbands, Husbands Love their wives. In Our relationship with Christ, this is the test whether we are worthy to be his bride. If we have made Jesus our Lord, and master, we will selflessly serve him, and extend his love to others. When we face adversity, as his bride to be, He “draws nearer” to us. And even when we fail in the face of adversity, he shows us his grace.

    The adversity we face as Christians is that our groom has been delayed. We Can respond to this adversity with escapism, Lukewarmness, or submission to his will. If you think of the Parable of the Sower, (Matthew 13:18-23) are we the “good soil”, where the seed (Love) takes root and grows, and produces fruit (Love as Christ loved us)? Or are we the rocky ground, that our love cannot endure tribulation, or perhaps the ground with thorns, where the things of this world make our love for our groom get choked out. (see Matthew 13:18-23)

    The adversity that Jesus faces is that he “yearns Jealously over the Spirit he has made to dwell in us.” Is the Love that Christ showed to us on the cross…the seed, taking root and growing? Or will it not endure the tribulations we face, and get choked by the thorns of this world? And finally, is it producing fruit a hundred fold (Love for one another), so much so that He, the groom, desires to draw nearer to us…To come to get his bride?

    The Whole of the Bible is this Love story. This is how the bride readies herself, in total submission, and Love for others. If your marriage has hit a rocky spot in this world, just remember that the Lord may be trying to use this to teach you where your relationship with your heavenly Groom has gone wrong. Or perhaps he is also trying to teach you how to love another person who has failed you in some way. Hosea understood Israels adultery through his marriage to a Harlot. He Also learned what it is that God desires of his bride. In a sense, he Got to know God even better and more intimately. When we fail him, he extends his grace towards us. Why should we not be good stewards of that grace and extend this towards our partners here on earth first, and then to our brothers, and even our enemies? This is a hundredfold return on the investment of his Love he accomplished on the cross. This is “HIS love perfected in us” (1 John 4:12)

    If You take the time to see the Bible from this perspective…The whole of it makes sense and fits together as one. Every Parable will take on a new dimension of meaning, Every relationship, every Law, every rebuke, every punishment, every conflict, and every blessing and every prophecy. Think about it.

    God bless you all.

  16. Good thoughts Dru – God bless — ty

  17. Thank you Tom

    Have you ever considered the difference between the Betrothal, and the consumation of the marriage? The following site should be of interest in your studies.

    http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm

    Blessings to you as well.

  18. Yea Dru – I have listened to Bro. Johnathan Cahn out of New Jersey for a few years and still do. I love the way Jewish believers teach those Holy Days and Marriage. I Have preached on them at different places. I will check out what you sent. God bless —– Shalom and Rest to you.

  19. Todd,
    I am responding here to your question on the Noah and the rapture page, as Tom above is a proponent of the serpent/seed theory. Perhaps he could Join in regarding it. My biggest problem with this theory, which is loosely based on Biblical story of Cain and Abel, Is that it has led to all sorts of “Hatred” on the part of its proponents. Whether this was the Antisemitism of Hitler, The racism of the KKK, or the Judaizers of the Apostolic times. It is a very hard topic in that respect. The biggest question is does the seed of Cain survive the flood. Now I know people have tied this to the “Caananites”, and the “Kenites”, and to “Kenya”, But I personally do not believe that this seed survived, and that the Mark of the beast in no way has to do with the mark of Cain. I Also Believe that all the seed of the Nephillim were also destroyed during the flood as well, which Many would point to Goliath, and Nimrod, and the Canaanites again.

    Obviously, though Noah was a herald of Righteousness, His family may not have been, thus sin continued after the flood, thus this would logically infer that the seed of the serpent survived as well, whether this was in one of the wives of Noah’s Sons, though this is all speculation. As Angels are “eternal beings”, Fallen or Holy, they will not be destroyed, rather suffer for eternity in the lake of fire. If you read the Book Of Enoch, you will see that they are going to be released for a time before Judgement, which I believe is what all the UFO sightings may be. (Note how 1947 is when they were first made public, corresponding to Israel’s refounding)

    I believe that since that time, they have been creating “sons” to fulfill the roles described in revelation once the seals are lifted. Thus a latter fulfillment may be in play.

    Perhaps Tom can add some more thoughts here. I have not ruled the serpent seed theory totally out, though i do see a “latter fulfillment” occuring here and now. The fruit of this theory has been hatred in the past so I am reluctant to accept it, as it is contradictory to “Salvation to whoever believes”, in other words it violates Jesus unconditional love and forgiveness in the blood of the Lamb.

    Calvinists have also have taken this into their understanding of calling and election. Thus those who are called to be saved will find their way into the church. A concept which violates the great Commission (Mark 16:14-18).

    Do not know if this answered your question. Just my thoughts.

    • Dru,
      My response to your question was kind of vague because although I heard it before, I never really gave it much thought.

      So, according to this theory, all of the descendants of Cain are Satan’s LITERAL seed and will be condemned (the “non-elect”) and all of the descendants of Abel are Adam’s literal seed (the “elect”); Is this correct? Can any of Satan’s literal seed be saved? Will any of Adam’s seed NOT be saved? What about families where one child is a believer and one is not? Wouldn’t this indicate the theory is false?
      God placed two trees in the center of the Garden. God was giving them a choice between loving Him and going their own way. If the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge was sex with Satan, would that not make the fruit of the Tree of Life sex with God?
      I agree with you about the Nephilim/UFO scenario, as recorded in Enoch, Jude, Revelation. It will be part of the coming delusion. As for the “mark” on Cain, it is only a prophetic type of the “mark” of the Antichrist.
      I believe that all are descendants of Adam since “From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth” (Acts 17).
      God sees two people in the world, those who are “in Adam” and those who are “in Christ.”
      Jesus tells the Jews that: “You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do.” Jesus also acknowledged these Jews were from the physical lineage of Abraham when He says, “I know that you are Abraham’s seed.” Obviously, they can’t be Satan’s LITERAL seed AND Abraham’s seed at the same time.
      If Cain is to be identified as the seed of the serpent, then the distinction being made would not have been between the serpent’s seed and Eve’s seed, but between the serpent and Eve’s seed, and Adam and Eve’s seed. Instead, the seed of the serpent is clearly distinguished from the seed of the woman.

      The Bible say, “Adam knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain” (Genesis 4:1). From this verse alone, it is obvious that Cain is Adam’s son.
      (I know their “twinning” argument, which is totally absurd.)

      No, I believe the story may be about spiritual adultery (Eve believing and trusting Satan rather that God), not literal adultery. The Whore of Babylon is not going to have literal sex with the Antichrist. She is going to be deceived by a lie, just as Eve was. According the Matthew, the “good seed,” the Seed of the woman, is Jesus, the Word of God. The “bad seed” are those who spread the lies of Satan.

      • Todd,
        First of all, do not forget about Seth.I am not a proponent of the serpent seed theory, so I will try to answer some of your questions from their perpective…A position of weakness.

        I am posting the scripture, just for reference here:
        From Genesis 4
        11 And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.” 13 Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is greater than I can bear.[e] 14 Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15 Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. 16 Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod,[f] east of Eden.”

        19 And Lamech took two wives. The name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. 20 Adah bore Jabal; he was the father of those who dwell in tents and have livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe. 22 Zillah also bore Tubal-cain; he was the forger of all instruments of bronze and iron. The sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

        According to the Serpent/Seed theory, the Cainites are Satan’s literal seed.

        According to this theory, No, having a child which is saved and one unsaved would not disprove this theory….Just look at Cain and Abel. Whether the “twinning argument” is true or not, this would befit the Logic they have.

        Regarding the two trees in the Garden, these do not apply to Cain and Abel, but to the curse that man is under. Cainites are under a double curse.

        Forgive me if I get a bit philosophical here and go on a tangent: Regarding the two trees, I have proposed that the created Order had Man in an act/react relationship to God’s Love. Basing a decision on right and wrong is to become the “first actor” in a relationship…To become like God. The problem with man being the “first actor” is that “God IS Love”, and all love begins from God, as creator, and first Actor. Hence at this point, when Man fell, The basis of all their actions became Moral law. So where there was but one rule in the Garden, there came “thou shalt not Murder”. Moral Law automatically leads to man judging other men based on this moral law. In Christ exemplifying his Love on the cross, We now again have his Love to react to. We are either reacting to his Love, which is the tree of life, New creation, created Order etc, Or we are acting from Moral law, where we are decide right and wrong, and Judge according to that Law as the “first actor”. You should easily be able to see where pride is built into this latter approach.

        Thus here we have re-acting as the “bride”, and acting as a “Harlot” within our relationship with God. This is not Just a spiritual Harlotry, but a very real and tangible Harlotry. God in his Mercy gave Israel the Law of Moses, that they might again learn to React to God’s Love…Because the inability of it to be lived up to was to lead to repentence. Instead, Israel used this Law not to Love, but rather to condemn. Thus pride was never overcome and Harlotry grew. To define Harlotry, it is the reliance on Man, as opposed to trust in God. Man in control, vs. God in control.

        Now, regarding Cain’s mark, was this not a mark of “protection” from the Lord? Did not Lamech the 5th Generation from Cain, say when he killed someone (who we do not know) ” If Cain’s revenge is sevenfold, then Lamech’s is seventy-sevenfold.” (4:24)? Is this not What Jesus was referring to when he said to forgive seventy times seven times (Matt. 18:22) In response to Peter asking if we should forgive seven times? This alone should point to the fact that salvation brought by Jesus is for all, not Just a certain race. That There is no Partiality in the Gospel.

        Within this lies my problem with the Serpent seed theory. Partiality of the Gospel, instead of fulness. Hence Salvation extended to the Gentiles as well. And will extend to Israel, “when he takes their sins away”

        So to answer your point on Israel being Satan’s seed, and Abraham’s seed, An individual can be both in their lifetime, depending on whether they have made Jesus their Lord or not. It is not only a spiritual separation. We can commit spiritual and Literal adultury, by loving and trusting ourselves more than God. Not being submissive. Not reacting to his Love.

        In conclusion, i am not a proponent of the theory, so my “defense” is more of a critique. That is why i posted it here so that Tom York can defend it better to you (Or NOT?). If the Cainites do survive, then salvation extends to them as well, and the forgiveness in the Blood of Jesus. The Mark of Cain, is a mark of the curse he received, which is described in the passage above. Now I Know that Nomadic and Gypsy cultures fit the descendends of Lamech above, in description. I do not know if it is in “inscription” though.

        I do not think that the Mark of the beast is a prophetic type of the Mark of the beast. It would be more similar to the sealing of the 144,000….a seal of protection. Don’t you think?

        To help you understand all this, a reaction comes from the heart, an action from coercian (fear of punishment, Knowledge of good and evil). This is the difference between righteousness, and wickedness. Serving God and not serving Him. As a new creation in Christ, we not only obey, but we desire to obey. Though our flesh right now hinders the fullness of a new creation at this time, it does not hinder the heart from surrendering our will.

        Again, do not know if this answers your question or not. I just have not ruled this theory out in its totality yet. But in the obverse of what most people use this theory, to show our love, and to make Israel even more jealous. ??

        Blessings.

        • Dru,

          Sorry, I meant Seth, not Abel in the previous post.

          1) I believe having two children, one saved and one not, DOES disprove it. Cain and Abel (supposedly) had different fathers, but if there were two children from the same father, one saved and one not, then that means salvation in not in the DNA. If the father were a literal seed of Satan, BOTH children would be seeds of Satan and unsaved. If the Father were a literal seed of Seth, BOTH would seeds of Seth and be saved. A person could have DNA from BOTH Satan and Seth through intermarriage, but that would also destroy the theory.
          And, as I said before, the Seed of Woman and the Seed of the Serpent are at war, not the seed of Adam/Eve and the seed of Satan/Eve. Seth AND Cain are the seed of the women, just with different fathers, so the theory makes no sense here either. The seed of the Serpent would also be the seed of the woman.

          2) As for your being a “bit philosophical” I believe that all you say is what I have been saying, just from a different angle. Adam and Eve were created “naked.” They had nothing to give; they were empty clay jars. God’s purpose was to fill them with love to overflowing so that His love would be poured out on others. The love that we have is not our own. It is Jesus loving through us. It is His light shining, not ours. He is the Sun, we are the moon reflecting His light on a dark world. So yes, the Tree of Life is a response to Him. And because there is no relationship, no faith, in the Tree of knowledge, there is nothing to respond to. It is acting alone, apart from God.
          But I don’t believe the Law was given to teach Israel to react to God’s love. The Law is “not of faith.” There was nothing to react to in the Law. “The man who does these things will live by them. The righteous live by faith.” The Law was merely given to show us the emptiness of our clay jars (to lead us to repentance). It was a response to the Cross that filled those jars.
          And it is our nakedness, our inability to measure up to God’s standard that results in condemnation. Because our pride won’t allow us to accept the fact that we don’t measure up to God’s, we compare ourselves to man, and create ways to measure up, condemning others to exalt ourselves.

          3) Regarding the mark:
          a) I don’t believe Jesus was comparing Lamech’s declaration with Peter’s. I believe He was CONTRASTING them. Jesus used events in the Old Testament to make points. His point here was contrasting vengeance and forgiveness. The Law demanded vengeance (Leviticus 26:18, 21, 24). The Cross demands forgiveness.
          b) I’ve studied the typology of the “mark” for a long time and considered the possibility that it is a type of the sealing of the 144,000. Because prophecy/typology is multilayered and multifaceted I believe it somehow represents BOTH the seal and the mark in Revelation.
          In the beginning, the wicked person with the mark, kills the righteous. In the end, the wicked people with the mark also kill the righteous. Both Abel, and the martyrs in Revelation have blood that cries out.
          The type also represents the Jews and Jesus, two brothers. Abel represents Jesus who offered by faith, a sacrifice (Himself) pleasing to God. Cain represents the Jewish nation who trusted in the Law and offered sacrifices from the work of their hands. And even though they were both murderers, He offered grace to both of them. But they both refused that grace. And as God put a mark of protection on Cain and sent him into exile, so God put a mark of protection on Israel and sent her into exile ( where both their descendants were materially successful, but not spiritually successful. ) (The “mark” didn’t protect Cain from being killed. It only demanded that whoever killed him would be punished seven times over.)
          In the end, when she returns from exile, natural Israel will have to make a choice. Harlot Israel are those who accept the Mark of the Beast, and those who”come out of her” will receive the Seal of God and become part of spiritual Israel.
          Those who accept the “mark:”
          “They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord…Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain” (Jude 1).
          Those (like Cain and the Harlot) who want to save their lives will lose them. Those who lose their lives for [Jesus’] sake will find them.
          “Vengeance is mine” says the Lord. “I will repay.” ( And it may not be in this lifetime.)
          So I don’t think God protected Cain for the same reason he protects the 144,000. God uses evil to bring about good. Satan was a tool used by God to bring salvation. So was Judas. Antichrist is a tool used by God to judge Babylon. Persecution by unbelievers is a tool used by God to purify to saints. He uses both; some for noble purposes, some for ignoble purposes:

          Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness. In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work (II Timothy 2).

          3) “Regarding the two trees in the Garden, these do not apply to Cain and Abel, but to the curse that man is under. Cainites are under a double curse.”

          I disagree. The offerings of Cain and Abel had everything to do with the two Trees. Abel offered his sacrifice by faith, Cain did not. (Tree of Life, Tree of Knowledge). Both were subjected to Adam’s curse, but Cain was subjected to a “double curse,” the “second death,” being driven from God’s presence because there was no repentance; for Cain, the “land” would produce NO fruit as opposed to producing fruit “by the painful toil of [their] hands and the “sweat of [their] brows” for the descendants of Seth.

          Cain refused God’s remedy for the curse, the sacrifice that Abel, who was a type of Christ, offered .

          “Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (I John 3:15).
          “Outside are the unbelieving, the cowardly, the vile, the murderers…this is the second death” (Revelation).

          “Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain… clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD , plucked up by the roots;” (Jude 1:11-12).

          • Todd,
            Well, we have wandered a bit from the serpent seed theory. Again, I am not a proponent of it, so my arguments for it are weak. I do know that they have no problem with the one saved, vs not saved coming from the same mother and father. I am sure they have some formula for this though….Any one else is welcome to chime in here on this.

            I am glad you followed my philosophical argument. Not many are able to, and accuse me of saying “good is evil, and evil good.”, which is as far from the reality of this as possible.

            I do disagree with you that the Law was not an act of Love on the part of God for Humanity. If nothing else it has allowed for civility in the world to increase, as opposed to total chaos and lawlessness overwhelming humanity. Yes there is Plenty of sin, and the Law still remains intact to condemn the world of its sinfullness. With the Law, there was a path of forgiveness of sin, allbeit a temporary sacrifice for sin. Thus the grace and Mercy of Yahweh was revealed in the law. But this Law was incomplete, in that it was unable to overcome the original sin within the man because it had no ability to make the man reborn (born again) without sin. Though Israel was able to put to death their own self with the Law (repentence) they were unable to be reborn in righteousness, but rather were reborn in sin.

            To Go off on another tangent here, regarding testing purifying the believer, which is what this post is about. Ithink it is important to distinguish between purifying and perfecting. We are purified at salvation, reborn with no sin. We are perfected as we walk with him throughout this life, through trial and tribulation. Thus the Law, only has the ability to take us to the point of rebirth, and cannot take us any farther. The fulfillment of the Law, Jesus enables us to be reborn and begin to be perfected in his Love.These “qualities perfected in us are not something even stated within the Law. See the following passage.

            5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[f] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

            What is clear here is we start at the point of faith (repentence and belief) To which we add virtue,(will to do good), Knowledge, self control (temperence), Steadfastness (patience), godliness (holiness), brotherly affection (Philadelphia), Love (Agape).

            So yes the law has restrictions that enforce brotherly love, but you can abide by those laws, and hate your brother. It does not lead to virtue. (Most of that is for others who may read this, and I agree largely with your comments here.) Note 2 Peter 1:9 above. Is this not the blindness where Israel stands, and we as well can be brought back to nearsightedness if we are not being perfected in this way.

            I do agrree with your point on vengence vs Forgiveness, and a contrast. i think that was my point in Jesus using these terms. My point is that Agape demands that we Love and forgive even our enemies “innumerous times” over, as Christ did for us.

            You say the Mark of cain represents both the MOB, and the seal of God. Point taken, and agreed. As such it probably does not make a good example for either though.

            If you study the word “seal” in the OT, Particular with Job, you will find that it is rooted in the word “Hedge” of protection. Thus removing a seal is to remove that protection. I believe this applies to the seven seals as well in revelation. As Marianne likes to point out, we have been persecuted for thousands of years now. we have experienced conquerors, wars,famines, plagues, and martyrdom, and natural catastrophe. When Jesus breaks those seals in revelation, this has implications for this removal of protection for Christians, thus we will not be immune to them. The question is, will we be able to Love in the face of these “trials”? I believe that this has a “preterist” fulfillment, which Tom York is arguing about as well. Though he has a strange view on the rapture and second coming being preterist. In a sense, what many in the church undergo (trials and tribulations), and then die before his second coming, have had these seals unsealed in their prescence.

            Preterism, and the Serpent seed have often been linked together. I cannot deny these preterist claims, because I am a testimony to this, However, I do deny the Serpent seed theory largely, choosing instead to call this what the apostles called it, God’s foreknowledge, and calling. A point you make in quoting 2 timothy, and “God knows those who are his.”

            Regarding the trees, and Cain and Abel, It is clear that Adam and Eve were removed from the garden as a result of the fall. The curse of Man is therefore the inability to commune with God. (Access to the tree of life)
            The story of cain and Abel, has nothing to do with this in the sense that even had Cain made a proper offering, this access would still have been denied. The Only way to overcome this curse is to put to death the old man (Adam not Abel) and be reborn in Christ Jesus. Thus Cains act was a failure in understanding this curse.

            What You are making an error in is the assumption that the Law cannot lead to faith. I think the book of Hebrews makes this clear, in listing the faith of the OT saints. Thus tying the “tree of life” to faith is not a viable solution. In doing this, you are in fact saying that at salvation, “Betrothement”, we are guranteed a “consummated” relationship. It Is in the perfecting of our love, becoming a new creation, that we will be allowed to eat of the tree of life. Though we are never fully perfected in this flesh, when we “put on the immortal” we will be completed. The Robe of righteousness is “put on” by the bride. The tribulation time period, thus to me is a fast forward on the process of perfecting us. Obviously, some who have walked with the Lord will be able to “put on the immortal” flesh beforehand, while others, who have been purified, but not perfected will be unable to Put on the immortal flesh, until they are refined first Thus the almost “need” for two raptures.

            Read 1 corinthians 15 and also 1 peter 1:22-23 below.and 2 corinthians 4
            22 Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, 23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

            Ask yourself this.
            What is the “right” reaction to the Love of our groom?

            God bless.

            • good point about the seal, what breaking it means removing protection

            • Dru,

              I think for the most part we agree. I think we misinterpret and misunderstand because we speak a different “language.” I think more concretely, matter of factly (is factly a word?) and literally than most people.

              YOU SAID: “I do disagree with you that the Law was not an act of Love on the part of God for Humanity.”
              “You are making an error in is the assumption that the Law cannot lead to faith. I think the book of Hebrews makes this clear, in listing the faith of the OT saints. Thus tying the “tree of life” to faith is not a viable solution. In doing this, you are in fact saying that at salvation, “Betrothement”, we are guranteed a “consummated” relationship”

              I don’t think I said that the Law was not an act of Love on the part of God. Nor did I say that the Law cannot lead to faith. The Law was put in place to lead us to faith. It was God who put BOTH Trees in the Garden. The Law was given to lead us to faith in Christ – that is an act of love. And yes there is a path of forgiveness in the Law – Abel found it, as well as Noah who both offered sacrifices; Enoch, Abraham etc found it. Although they had no idea that their sacrifices pointed to Christ, they believed God and it was credited to them as righteousness. By faith Abel offered a better sacrifice. By faith Noah built a boat, even though it had never rained. By faith Abraham went where God told him to and offered his son because he believed God could raise him from the dead, etc.

              YOU SAID: “Though Israel was able to put to death their own self with the Law (repentance) they were unable to be reborn in righteousness, but rather were reborn in sin.”

              Israel was not reborn in sin. They remained dead in their sin. They needed faith to make them alive, but first their sin had to be removed. That is why Adam and Eve were kept from access to the Tree of Life (until the Cross), so that they wouldn’t live forever in their sinful state. Although they were clothed in righteousness by God, they will not be made spiritually and physically alive until the resurrection. Those that have live SINCE the Cross however are made spiritually alive at the New Birth and will be made physically alive at the resurrection/rapture.

              YOU SAID: “The story of cain and Abel, has nothing to do with this in the sense that even had Cain made a proper offering, this access would still have been denied.”

              It still has everything to do with the Trees. Even though no one in the Old Testament had access to the Tree yet because “the Spirit hadn’t been given” until Jesus was glorified, they were still saved by faith. Adam and Eve were clothed by God (His righteousness) even though they had no access to the Tree of life.

              Cain’s act was an act of rebellion. He offered a sacrifice through the works of His hands rather that through faith as Abel did (Hebrews 11). He sought to produce fruit through the works (of the Law) in the same way Eve did. He refused to believe that it was for this reason that they were already under a curse. The works of the Law brought the curse. In a sense, he tried to overcome the curse by trying to do the very thing that brought the curse in the first place (seek righteousness and produce fruit through the Law). But the Law brings death, not life.

              I believe there are three stages in salvation: justification, sanctification and glorification. These three stages are foreshadowed by the three Feasts of the Lord, three Temple compartments and three stages of a Jewish Wedding. We are now towards the end of Pentecost, getting ready to enter the Most Holy Place, and waiting for the soon return of our Husband.

              1) At justification we HAVE BEEN saved from the PENALTY of sin. Our spirits are saved, raised up and seated with Christ. We still have sin in our lives, but that sin is forgiven. At this point God sees our salvation as already complete, although from our point of view it doesn’t seem to be. Our “work” of faith is to believe and see ourselves the way He already sees us. This is “work[ing] out our salvation (with fear and trembling) which is the next step.

              2) At sanctification we are BEING saved from the POWER of sin. Our souls are BEING saved. This to me is purification. It is a lifetime process, becoming what God says we already are. In our mortal bodies we will always have sin. If we walk in the light as He is in the light… the blood of Jesus Christ purifies us from all unrighteousness” I John). This purification is a process accomplish through trials and tribulations. Dross is removed from metal through fire. Chaff is removed from wheat through threshing (on a Tribulum!)
              “And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness” (Malachi 3:3).
              (Your verse in II Peter applies here. We purify ourselves remembering that our past sins are forgiven.
              In the verses cited, “purified” is in the Aorist tense. It doesn’t tell us when the event started or when it was finished or whether it ever stopped. In other words, although it is not yet accomplished, God sees it as accomplished.
              For those who continue to walk in the light and persevere it will result in the next stage.

              3) At glorification we WILL BE saved from the PRESENCE of sin. We will be purified. We will be made perfect. That purification and perfection will be accomplished when “we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.” Faith will be made sight. All that God says we are now positionally will become a reality experientially.

              Purification has more to do with being made sinless. Perfection has more to do with being made complete, mature, and includes sinlessness.

              YOU SAY: “Thus tying the “tree of life” to faith is not a viable solution. In doing this, you are in fact saying that at salvation, “Betrothement”, we are guranteed a “consummated” relationship”

              YES! I am in fact saying that “consummation” IS guaranteed! (If we continue in faith!). God knows His own! Jesus is the Tree of Life. “We have taste[d] and see that the Lord is good.” We have been buried with Him in baptism and we will be raised to life in Him. No one will ever “snatch them out of [the] Father’s hands (unless they want to be).

              There are many who are justified, but have not strived to attain perfection. These people (Laodicea) will be left to endure the time of tribulation and testing to see whether they will come out “purified as gold”. God knows already who belong to Him, and he calls them to “Come of of [Babylon], that [they] don’t partake of her sins and receive her plagues.” Those that don’t come out of her were never His to begin with, but belonged to the evil one.

              Justification and Glorification are completely God’s doing with no help from us. Sanctification is God’s doing also, but for Him to accomplish this, “I must decrease. He must increase” (John 3:30). We must become less of us and more of Him. We must empty the clay jars of all that is of our sinful nature, so that He can fill us with His divine nature.

              YOU SAY: regarding the MOB and Seal “As such it probably does not make a good example for either though.”

              Types are imperfect because they are shadows. The Mark of Cain can represent both the MOB and the Seal, just as Solomon is a type of Christ as well as a type of Antichrist.

              Regarding the Seven Seals, I have a completely different view. The answer to the meaning in Revelation is found in the Old Testament, Jewish culture, law, as well as tradition. To the people John was addressing, Revelation wasn’t a mystery. Know and understand the Old Testament and Jewish culture and I believe you will know and understand Revelation. It’s not some mystery that we have to figure out. God is a God of simplicity and order. Man likes to complicate things (creating chaos).
              I believe the Scroll is the Title Deed for the earth. This is described in Jeremiah 32 and typed in the Book of Ruth and is linked to the Law of Inheritance and to the Year of Jubilee, when all property is returned to its original owner. (Remember when Jesus entered the Temple on the Day of Atonement and read from Isaiah, purposely leaving off “the day of vengeance of out God”).
              The Title Deed Scroll is sealed with seven seals by seven witnesses . All seven seven witnesses had to be present at the opening of the seals (the Rapture of Overcomers of the Seven Churches will be present at the opening of the Seals) and all seven seals had to be broken to prove the holder was the rightful owner of the land. Jesus proved that “the earth and the fulness thereof” is His because He bought and paid for it with His blood.
              I believe the Seals are opened in quick succession and are what begin the Tribulation. The Antichrist and all the chaos he brings are revealed in Seals 1-4. At the Fifth Seal the souls of all the martyrs killed during the Church Age cry out “How long?” And God tells them to wait a little longer until the full number of those who will be killed (during the next seven years) have been killed. They are told to “Rest yet a little while longer,” so it seems they have been “resting” for a long time. The Rapture occurs at the opening of theSixth Seal on the Feast of Trumpets, and ten days later, on the Day of Atonement (notice the imagery in Revelation 8:3-5) the Seventh Seal is opened and Jesus begins taking back the earth by showing that He, not Satan has power and dominion over it (through the Trumpet plagues). He begins to topple Satan’s kingdom and the Kings cry out, “The wrath of the lamb has come…!”

              I don’t believe the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are parallel nor are they out of order. The Seventh Seal introduces the Trumpets, the Seventh Trumpet introduces the Bowls. The Trumpets involve only a third of the earth. The Bowls involve all the earth.

              The Seventh Trumpets is blown again on the Feast Trumpets, the kingdom of the world becomes the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ, the Bowls are poured out during the Days of Awe and on the Day of Atonement ( notice the imagery again in Revelation 11:18, 19) the Books are opened and judgement begins. The Millennial Temple (the Bride of Christ) descends out of Heaven on the Feast of Tabernacles, and while we attend the Wedding Feast, the birds outside the city are feasting on the remains of the armies of the Antichrist.

              I’m not sure removing a seal removes a hedge of protection. If that was the case, there would be no Rapture at the Sixth Seal. The Rapture is obviously not a removal of protection, but the very opposite! No Christian has ever been protected from “conquerors, wars,famines, plagues, and martyrdom, and natural catastrophe.” God doesn’t protect us from these things. He just promises He will be with us through them and will never leave us.

              All prophecy does have a Preterist interpretation BUT ALSO a Futurist, Historicist and Allegorist. Like the three stages of salvation, the Book of Revelation has been fulfilled, is being fulfilled, and will be fulfilled.

              (For example, the Beast can be seen allegorically as our fleshly human nature setting itself up in the Temple of God (our bodies) forcing us to bow down and obey him. When we worship the Beast, he allows us to “buy and sell” (feeding the flesh, the human nature). When we refuse to worship him, we can’t “eat or drink” and the flesh dies. The only way we can overcome the Beast is by dying, putting to death the deeds of the flesh and not letting sin reign in our mortal bodies. Those who worship the Beast (the flesh) are carnal Christians, not spiritual.)
              (Paul ties the “works of the Law” with the “deeds of the flesh.” The Law has the opposite effect of what we think it would. The commandment “Do not covet” produces in us “every covetous desire.” Those who try to live by the Law satisfy the deeds of the flesh. This is why I believe the MOB is the attempt to justify through the works of the Law, rather than being Sealed through faith.

              Talk about going off on tangents!🙂 (I don’t think it can be helped since everything in God’s Word is tied to everything else like a finely woven fabric, with every thread touching every other thread.)

              • Todd,
                Like you said, we are saying pretty much the same thing in a different “language”. Even where you say “consumation is guranteed”, and then proceed to put a “condition” on that gurantee. Which is WHY I said that the two Faith and the tree of life should not be put together. Your condition,” continuing in the faith” is what I called “Perfecting” our faith. (remember the parable of the sower here) This is also what James addresses regarding “faith without works”. In fact you will see this “Language barrier” amongst the apostles, and their writings as well. Hence the “supposed controversy” between James and Paul.

                I agree on the 3 stages of our faith, and John gives credence to this in 1 John calling the stages “children, Young men, and fathers”. Note the fathers “Know him who is from the beginning”, which should ring a bell with your point of a “finely woven fabric”.

                The points which we disagree, are regarding Revalation and the ordering thereof. I am more than willing to say that I do not have it figured out. I am by faith searching out the validity of the concept regarding seals, trumpets and vials intermingled. Your theory has alot of merit as well. But both are just that, a theory. I do not think that it is an accident that the terminology of a tempest used throughout scripture to describe the prescence of the Lord, or his coming in wrath, is used in the seventh seal trumpet, and vial, as well as other places therein. To have these three events describe one event is as plausible an argument as saying that they occur sequentially. In fact, by ordering them sequentially, you are implying that the Lord comes multiple times. One of those big contradictions which I have regarding that view.

                Even when you say that at the seventh seal we see the angels with the trumpets lends credence to my theory, in the sense that one phase of God’s plan is done being described , and the next one begins. You assume sequential time, I assume a jump back in time.

                Just on a precursory level and theoretically of course, I can say that the seven thunders are there within the text of this book. As well as the contents of the little scroll…What is written thereon. As far as I know, no other theory can do this without any degree of “certainty” that I know of. The hardest part of getting people to understand this has been overcoming their traditional interpretation of that book. Pride, in a sense. This pride has kept the churches divided for centuries….By God’s design mind you. “For we know in part, and prophecy in part, But when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.” (1 corinthians 13:9-10)

                Regarding Your last point on the works of the Law. This was my point on this site regarding the ark of the covenent (Or a replica thereof) possibly being the image of the beast. I do not know if you were here for that when the Lord revealed that through his Word. The fact that the real ark is shown in heaven at the time of the seventh trumpet, thus condemns all those that have believed the speakings made by this false Ark. (False presence of God in the Temple)

                I am not sure what your background is, but suspect that you are in the ministry, in that you articulate your points extremely well. You have a gift of teaching, i do know that. I had every intent to go into the ministry, But the Lord knocked me off that pedestal, and had a different plan for me. In the time that I have been here, i have made my election and calling sure (2 Peter 1). This is a wonderful gift unto itself. Though i am not the best communicator, or teacher, he has given me a “higher calling” to be a testimony of His work in in Man, which will result in Satan being thrown down to earth (Rev. 12:11). As such, My mind is free of the burdens of tradition, and denominationalism. Not being beholden to any of these yokes, The Lord has given to me the ability to comprehend without bias. To receive the testimony of others, who would otherwise be minimalized in the churches. This does not mean that I put up with unsound doctrine though. As many will attest to here.

                You Quoted Hebrews 12:24 above, I will close with some verses just after that. Take note of what has been discussed here with regard to them. God bless

                26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” 27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

              • Hi Todd and Dru,

                Interesting conversation above.
                Todd, I would like to mention something though. Above you say, “Adam and Eve were clothed by God (His righteousness) even though they had no access to the Tree of life.”

                I would disagree with that statement.
                Both Adam and Eve had access to every Tree in Eden, (other than the Tree of Knowledge), and were allowed to eat the fruit from all of them.
                By what is written in Genesis 2:16. & 3:2., this would have also included the “Tree of Life” as well.
                Therefore initially though human, both Adam and Eve were immortal and without sin, because they had maintained the Covenant with God and had not disobeyed the solitary Commandment that was given by eating of the fruit from the “Tree of Knowledge”.

                Eating from the Tree of Knowledge brought forth death.

                In Genesis 3:19., God proclaims to Adam that part of the punishment for disobeying would be death, “For dust you are, and to dust you shall return”, the reason and necessity for both Adam and Eve to be evicted from Eden was not because they had disobeyed Gods Commandment, but rather out of the concern that they would now eat from the “Tree of Life” and become immortal again. (Genesis 3:22.)

                Therefore one could surmise, that to disobey God brings upon death, but to partake of the Tree of Life, (Yeshua), one can be resurrected from that state of being to life.

                As well, though the specificity is not provided within Scripture as to what type of hide or skin was used within the very first death of an animal in Eden, (Genesis 3:21.), I believe that you could bet your bottom dollar, that the very first animal that was killed by God to fashion the hide that could then “cover their nakedness and shame” was a Lamb.

                Just my thoughts to add to the mix.
                Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Gracious Savior.
                Amen.

  20. To dmcal52 –

    The two Books are #1. Lamb’s book of Life -#2. The other is the Book of life for the whole world.

    Many think the Book of life and Lambs book of life are the same thing. I believe when you get born again your name goes on the Lambs book of life.

    The Book of life is you natural life in fallen condition.

    There is a Book of Rememberence in Malachi. But I think that would be with the Book of life as your sins follow you instead of going before you.

    If the Lord remembers our sins it would also be the book of death hell and the grave. We could say.

    I don’t have any problem’s with the thoughts on the books. Its Just all interesting to me.

    Lord bless you and may Peace be with you always. ty

    Yes dear brother

    • Hi Tom,

      As I said, what you assume to be two different books is the same book. There is never any allusion to there being two books. The only reason that you an others assume this is because one designation is:

      “The book of Life” and the other is “The Lamb’s book of life.”

      “All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in [the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was slain].” (Rev.13:8)

      “The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in [the book of life] from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.” (Rev.17:8)

      If you’ll notice in the verses above, the same thing is stated regarding those whose names were not written, but in one, the referrence is made to “The Book of Life” and the other to “The Lamb’s book of life.” The same expression is used for both referring to the same book, with one making referrence to the Lamb. There is only one book of life. Other than the word “Lamb” interjected into the description of the book of life, please show me where it is stated in Scripture that there are two books of life.

      Also, both of the verses above show that the names of those whom God forknew and predestined, their names were written in the book of life before the world even began. At the same time it infers that there were names that were not written before the world began. And in case anyone wants to call me a Calvinist, I have not read anything by Calvin nor do I follow hiim and therefore, I cannot nor do I want to be called by his name. The infomation that I am posting comes directly from Scripture. Savation is not a free-for-all, for God said,

      “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion.”

      The above verse demonstrates at the same time that, there are those of whom he does not have mercy and compassion on.

      Paul demonstrates God’s election to choose when he said, “Before either of the twins were born God said, ‘Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated.” To further drive home the point of God’s soverenity in election, he says regarding Pharoah,

      “But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

      This shows that neither Esau nor Pharoah had any choice in the matter, but God does the choosing, just like he chose us. There have been people from every time period in history whom God chose before the world began and had their names written in the book of life and people that he didn’t chose and whose names were not written in the book of life.

      For the subject of God’s choosing, foreknowing and predestination, read Rom.8:28-33, 9:1-24 and Ephesians 1:4-14 for it demonstrates God’s soverenity in election very clearly.

      Predestined/Proorizo: foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

      Foreknew/Proginosko: proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, “before” and 1097 /ginṓskō, “to know”) – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of “God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them”

      • HI Don

        I am just wondering how you would reconcile the above, (regarding there being only 1 book), in respects to Revelation 20:11-13.?
        These that are judged at the Great White Throne judgement are not Christians.

        11- And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

        12- And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and “another book” was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

        13- And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

        Be Blessed in Yeshua.

        • Hi Accepted,

          Sorry for any confusion. You might want to go back and read my post over. The gist of what I wrote was that, both the “Lamb’s book of Life” and “the Book of Life” are referrng to the same book. Just because it is referred to by a different designation does not constitute two books of Life. I also said that there are at least 3 books mentioned in Revelation 20 when it states, “The books were opened” (more than one) and “another book was opened, which is the Book of Life (one book).” Therefore, there are at least 3 books mentioned at the great white thone judgment and possibly more than three, based on the plurality of the word “Books” which infers more than one. It is strictly because the word “Lamb” is incerted into the description that expositors conclude that there are two books of life. The other books mentioned in Rev.20 are obviously the life-long actions of the lost dead, that is, the record of their lives including their sins, which are written in those other books and for which they are being judged. .

          Yours in Christ

  21. Dear Dru and toddott:
    I read your posts and you have alot on the table. I have been studying for the last 3 hours or so on a complete different message. But I will get back with you just soon as I can.

    But I will say this real Quick – The Serpent seed is a Spiritual Mark. Of Doubt, unbelief, and the fall. Man needed risen again. Look at the Character and Attitude of Cain. He wanted to rule his brother and that was what it was all about. He had great ambitions to build cities etc. Very intellectual, and cunning and a murderer.

    The Serpent is a cunning beast which is the Human Spirit that is in the flesh man. The Pharoah’s Crown’s had Serpents on them. Guess what “Spiritual seed” they had in them at the time.

    Satan cannot Create from scratch – the only thing he can do is “pervert” the Creation of God into a Beast like nature. You got the “Mark of the Beast” if you are Lost Period. If your name in not on the Lamb’s book of life you are of Beastly Character and still in fallen condition.

    We will talk on this more ok. God bless you all. And I appreciate the opportunity to fellowship with you.
    Bro. ty

    • Hello all,

      If I might jump in here:

      “You got the “Mark of the Beast” if you are Lost Period. ”

      The “Mark of the Beast” is a literal device that will be implanted subdermally. No one has yet received this mark, because it is still future. For years now, starting with the emergence of the first ATM’s, I have been watching the progress of the system that the mark of the beast will use. Scripture states that,

      “Unless anyone had the mark, they would not be able to buy or sell.”

      Buying and selling is crediting and debiting. For years now, people have been in the process of being programmed and conditioned to use this system. While somewhere people heard about this mark of the beast that was coming, they continue to look for the numbers 666 tattooed on the forheads of people, without realizing that they are already using the system that that mark will use and this by electronic payment whether by phone, computer, debit card or some combination thereof.

      Currently, the debit card is the [key] for crediting and debiting ones bank account, for now we have the ability through applications and devices that plug into your iphone that allow the ordinary person on the street to credit and debit each others bank accounts (buying and selling). The next step in this process will be the revealing of that man of lawlessness and then the changing of the [key] which will be that subdermal device under the skin. At some point during that last seven years, the false prophet will make cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete, leaving only that mark as a viable means of crediting and debiting bank accounts. This is the meaning behind “He forces all both great and small, etc…” If you remove all the other methods of buying and selling leaving only that mark, then a person will be faced with the decision to receive it or to reject it. For those who receive it, the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever and for those who reject it, they will be enemies of the beast and the whole world, this will be the fate of the great tribulation saints.

      The fact that there has been a big push to go paperless by having customers pay on-line, automatic deduction, via computer or iphone shows that we are continuing to head towards that time when the mark will emerge, as well as that antichrist. Make no mistake, the mark of the beast is a literal mark and in God’s timing will eventually replace the debit card in order for people to buy and sell as they do now. Regarding the subdermal device, we already know that they have produced them and are using them to track inventory, animals, prisoners, children and medical patience. Later on the application will be for financial transactions.

      In closing, individuals that continue to reject Christ or have died up to this point, have not received the mark of the beast and that because it hasn’t been introduced yet. Receiving the mark it is not symbolism for anyone who is a sinner, but is speaking of those who will, at a future time, literally receive the mark (device) in their literal right hand or literal forhead and that by their own choosing. To be clearer, no one who has died without Christ up to this point has received the mark of the beast and that simply because it hasn’t emerged yet. Those who receive the mark of the beast can only be applied to those who will be here when it becomes manditory for financial transactions.

      Always in Christ

      • Don,
        Good point.

        Do you think that the Mark of Cain, is in anyway a precursor, or example of the Mark of the Beast?

      • Don, I totally agree. We already have a world economic system and the False Prophet will use it, somehow tying the use of it with worshipping the Beast. People will have to pledge their lives to the Beast somehow before they can get the “mark.”

  22. dmcal52 and all – If a man that does not know Jesus Christ and dies. Is he going to the same place that a man goes that has the “Mark of the Beast”. Yes or No

    You are with the multitudes today that cannot get it out of your traditions of men. That the Mark of the Beast is coming for 3-1/2 years to deceive the whole world and church that is not ready.

    The Whole world is already deceived cause they do not know Jesus Christ in a intimate relationship.
    So the only one’s that could be decieved would have to be Christians . And you actually believe its a “computer chip” that is going to deceive them. The lost people of the world is looking for that. Its been preached so much. The Mystery goes way beyond the computer chip idea of man.

    LETS LET THE WORD DO THE TALKING and EXPLAINING

    EZEKIEL 9:4-10 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the CITY, through the midst of JERUSALEM, and set a MARK upon the FOREHEADS of the MEN that SIGH AND THAT CRY for all THE ABOMINATIONS that be done in the midst thereof.
    5. And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
    6. Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
    7. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
    8. And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord GOD! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
    9. Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not.
    10. And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

    Eze. 9:4 “MARK DEFINED” is 8420- desire, mark (AS A SIGN OF EXEMPTION FROM JUDGMENT )- A computer chip cannot take away your desire and Born Again experience. The Holy Spirit living inside you is God’s Mark. And its not going to be deceived by a computer chip. Period

    2. “HOLY GHOST FILLED MEN” will sigh and cry over the abominations that be done in the midst of the so called “Christian doctrines” today that deceive the people by getting into their minds and hearts. And will bring them to judgment – not by a computer chip. But they go with the multitudes like in Jesus day. Will not study, will not change course, stubborn and are satisfied.

    3. LETS READ THE “Words” OF GODS computer chip. On how to take the Mark of Beast.
    II THESS. 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    VER. 10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    VER. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    VER. 12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    VER. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    3. The Mark is Spiritual blindness – Cain had a chip alright – on his shoulder, and a bad nasty, Character that did not want to serve God.
    And He sold out his birthright for a Name, and Fame, to Rule etc. etc.
    Just like Esau did for a cup of soup.

    How many out there believe the Bible what it says below in Scripture
    Eze. 9:4 582 ‘ Men —-1. man, mortal man, person, mankind- of an individual- men (collective) –1c) mankind –
    1. Ty = we are mortal beings- To have Eternal life you Need Jesus Christ “In You and He is not a chip – or anything else. He’s God – The Devil does not hand out chips to make you a bad, nasty, killing , perverted man. That will not believe in Salvation. You chose that spirit of satan to live by. And die by.
    A chip will not make you be deceived. Or lose you Salvation.

    Same word Men is 605 also – to be weak, to be incurable, DESPERATELY WICKED , woeful, very sick —why—-
    2. Because they are Idol worshippers of the Nations they live in. Daniel said the Kingdoms of this world are BEAST. They have economy, riches, pleasures, gods of many kinds in them and many pleasures of sin to seduce them away from Gods love. The people are selling and buying into their economies. And forgetting God in their lives. Book of Revelation mentions the Nations 19 times just in that book. They become slaves to worldly preachers and sin Rom. 6:12-16 – No computer chips deceiving them.

    Eze. 9:9 – Here is a spiritual computer chip that will destroy you and deceive you – iniquity, land is full of blood, the CITY full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. People have no revelation of faith the worketh by love. Gal. 5
    2. Individuals buy into this scheme by being deceived by Satan the dragon the Beast and false prophets that are everywhere spreading their lukewarm doctrines of devils. That’s the “Mark of the Beast” in all the Nations.

    ISAIAH 54:1- ¶ Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

    ISAIAH 55:6-9 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
    7. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
    8. For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    THOUGHTS – 4284 from 2803; thought, plan, invention -make a judgment, imagine, count, devise and to plan – Most of mans thoughts come from his own heart. All the great inventions, and imagination, plans and thoughts of man‘s judgments were vain in Jesus Day. This day is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    You either got the Lord Jesus Christ ruling and living in your heart.
    Or you have Satan the Flesh and Human spirit ruling in your heart.
    No computer chip can change either one of those hearts. Only God.

    • Tom,
      It is getting late, and I will touch base with you tomorrow. The chip is a tool used tomake this mark. thecondition of the Mark itself is “worshipping the image” of the beast.

    • Tom,
      15 And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e] to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.[f] (Rev.13)

      4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, AND [those who had not worshiped the beast or its image] AND [ had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands]. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev. 20)

      What to me is clear from these passages is that Worship of the beast is the requirement to be marked. Thus from your preterist position, all who have died without Jesus as Lord, Have in effect “Worshipped the beast”. Thus they have a mark on them, but not the mark of the beast. Now regarding the verse from revelation 20:4 above. I have argued that this describes 3 different groups of people from throughout history, as well as those coming out of the tribulation which occurs at the end in Christ’s Physical second coming. Many others see this as one group of people only, tribulation saints.

      So, My problem with your thinking is not that you are a preterist….My Mom held these views, and I love her dearly. My Problem is that you do not see the fullness of the second coming, thereby do not accept the Material fulfillment of these prophecies. Thus, Yes we are “raptured” in a sense, which using my “language” is the point that we Submit to Jesus, and Make him LORD of our lives. Thus Jesus comes to us when we yield to him. What you call the “second coming” in your language.

      Like much of the discussion I have had with Todd, we have a different language for expressing the same thing. But we are also raptured in the material sense in the near future, where we receive our immortal bodies, and Jesus comes again physically and stands on the mount of Olives, and rules for a millenium. ( My mom was an amillenialist as well)

      Honestly i think the Lord brought you here for this very reason. to remind us that the those who have died in Christ, have undergone the same afflictions as those who will be alive during that final time of testing. As the age of grace comes to a close, this time of refining will get condensed, which used to take a lifetime, now will take years to accomplish. As such we have acall for endurance on the part of the saints in this time.

      Thus from this line of thinking, every age of man has had a “beast” to be worshipped, and every age has had a “mark” that shows allegience to this beast. And every age has had those who are considered saints who overcome this temptation. But there is also a literal fulfillment of these prophecies in a final time of testing that is called the end of the age, and will usher in the day of the Lord, and the second coming.

      So it is not just the “antichrist” within us, Man’s will, But there is also an Antichrist beast outside of us (Satan’s will), that we will be confronting.

      God bless.

  23. To All – Cain, Esau, Judas, and many Peter and Paul and Jude called Men – Natural brute beasts. John said the anti-christ was in his day.

    Who put the computer chip in them.

    John said that if you “Do not believe that ” Christ Comes in the Flesh” you are a anti-christ.

    The Holy Spirit is your “guide to all Truth” that is the evidence you got it. It drives you to get out of myths, old fables, and modern dogma. It drives you to read, and STUDY, and pray and seek and watch on all sides.

    Millions in this generation do not know that Christ the Spirit of Jesus actually comes into you to dwell.

    The Evidence you got it. It changes your Character, the old Spirit man that was living in you has to die. The Holy Spirit IN YOU is the only power where by Men can be Born again and kill that old man dead. Not kill a computer chip to death.

    It’s not just talking in tongues, That is “a” evidence but not THEE evidence. No more than the other 8 gifts of the Spirit that could come upon you. Wisdom and Understanding, Healing, Wonders, etc. Etc.

    The Church has got things so messed up today. That Rev. 3 – the Church thinks its just fine and in need of nothing. Yet they are wretched blind and Naked. Look up Naked in Book of Revelations.

    It only takes a little deception and after awhile – man’s inventions and revelations of the mind and imagination of what the New Birth is gets so confused its any wonder how anybody can find the truth today. Only God can lead you to it. No wonder it has always been just a remnant. Very few they be that find it Jesus said. Why — They will not open up their mind to the Spirit of the Word of God. God have mercy on us all.

    • Tom,
      I agree with most of what you say, but I think you misunderstand. The “Mark of the Beast” is only an outward sign of men’s “nakedness.” That “nakedness” is there because men choose not to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ, but instead seek to clothe themselves by the works of the Law, the works of their hands.
      The “nakedness”of most of the Church today is part of the “falling away,” the apostia mentioned by Paul.
      The spirit of the antichrist has always been around. There have been many antichrists – Cain, Esau, Judas, as well as many false prophets and false teachers, but THE Antichrist and False Prophet are still to come. People will receive the “mark” of the Antichrist because they love their own lives more than they love God.

  24. Accepted,
    They had access to every tree in the Garden INITIALLY, but after they sinned they were barred from the Tree of Life by two Cherubim with a flaming swords. If they had even from the Tree of Life they would have lived forever in their sinful state. They weren’t given access to the Tree of Life until the Tree of Life made atonement on the Cross. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve were clothed by God in the skins of the Lamb. Abraham, for example, was accounted righteous because of his faith, but could not have been made alive “because the Spirit had not yet been given.” The Spirit could only have been given after Jesus was glorified. Though Abraham was made righteous, he will eat from the Tree of Life until the resurrection. Since the Cross, we who live by faith have “tasted” of the Tree, but like Abraham we will not eat from Him until the resurrection/rapture at the Wedding Feast. “Now we know in part, then we shall know in full, even as we have been fully known.”
    Eating of the Tree of Knowledge brought immediate spiritual death and eventual physical death. Eating of the Tree of Life (since the Cross) immediately brings Life to our spirits, and eventually life to our bodies at the resurrection/rapture.

    • Hi Todd,

      Ummm, please re-read my previous post again, because you have just stated more or less what I had stated above.

      The point that I was attempting to convey was that both Adam and Eve HAD eaten from the Tree of Life already and were immortal.
      Then they disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of Knowledge and God then caused death to occur, (though prior to this neither Adam or Eve had any concept whatsoever of what death itself consisted of, because other than the Lamb that was killed to create the covering for their nakedness and shame, nothing in Eden had ever died before).

      I then say, “The reason and necessity for both Adam and Eve to be evicted from Eden was not because they had disobeyed Gods Commandment, but rather out of the concern that they would now eat from the “Tree of Life” and become immortal again. (Genesis 3:22.)”

      Be Blessed in Yeshua. Praise be unto Him, His Grace and Glory.
      Amen.

  25. Dru,
    On a previous post I wrote about two Trees. The Tree is the Law. Specifically, the Tree of Life is Jesus, the embodiment of the Law. We who are in Christ are part of the Tree. We are His branches. The leaves of the Tree, which are for the healing of the nations, are good works done through faith (that is the connection between the Tree and faith). We grow to maturity and bear fruit when we abide in Him.

    As for Revelation, I’ve been studying it for twenty years and still don’t have it figured out. I’ve studied your theory for a while as well as all of the others. All the theories seem to have problems and contradictions, but I find that the sequential theory has less problems (as far as I see) than the rest. It still may be wrong, though. I suspect no one will ever figure it out. God always has a way of surprising us, and just like His first coming, will fulfill everything in a way that none of us would have imagined.
    I don’t know how the sequential order implies the Lord coming multiple times. And I didn’t understand your comment about the seven thunders and little scroll, “No other theory can do this…” Do what?

    The Ark idea makes sense. I mentioned previously the idea that part of the powerful delusion was a counterfeit second coming of a counterfeit messiah ushering in a counterfeit millennium with a counterfeit Law (“…seeks to change times and laws.”), a delusion that would deceive even the elect (if that were possible.)

    I’m not in the ministry (I’m a CT Technologist at Spectrum Health.), though many have told me I should be. Many tell me I should have been a teacher, though I’ve never seen myself as a good communicator. I’ve always had this feeling that people have no idea what I’m talking about. But you are as good a communicator and teacher as anyone on this site.
    My mind is also free of traditions and denominationalism, so I’m able to find truth in most people’s theories. I believe the Holy Spirit is given to all the faithful and that He leads us into all truth. No one person or denomination has a monopoly on truth. We all see “in part.”

  26. Todd,
    Regarding the seven thunders.
    John was told to “seal up what the seven thunders have said, and do not write it down” 10:4
    Then an angel tells him “do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the TIME IS NEAR.”

    Either we have a contradiction here, or we have “what the thunders have said” concealed in the book itself, awaiting a revelation, when the time is near.

    Now imagine if each of these “thunders”, what is said is not written in chapter ten, but are contained within the book itself awaiting us to sync them together, Much like a CT scan (Or is it an MRI) takes pictures of layers of the anatomy of a person which are put together to create a 3d image for the doctors. (How’s that for an analogy for you?) If you viewed the CT images sequentally, They may make some sense to one who studies them, but you will not be able to see the whole three dimensional image until you put them together, and sync them up.

    Most other theories, assume that what these thunders said is not written down in the book at all. But then why the call to seal up these words then?
    How can something be concealed, if it is not therein? ( For some reason the kids movie “Kung Fu Panda” comes to mind here. LOL If you have not seen that then ignore this comment)

    Though I do not have this all figured out yet, and yes he will surprise us, But I believe that these seven thunders are seven events that occur nearly simultaneously That will create “shock and Awe” when the time comes. Look up the definition for the word “seal” found in chapter 10 there.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4972&t=KJV

    Now note the difference in definition between the seals of revelation 6

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4973&t=KJV

    Not just the fact hat one is a noun, and the other a verb, but that there is a whole new level of meaning therein.

    God bless.

    • one seal can be to hide from being know

      another seal can be to confirm what is to be revealed.

    • Todd,
      That second verse from revelation above is revelation 22:10, the first one is revelation 10:4

    • To all for consideration,

      Regarding the “seven thunders” from Revelation 10, and the entire chapter for that matter.

      We know from 1 Peter 4:17,18. that the Church, (Assembly or Body), is to be judged first.
      You have seen my posts regarding the Assembly of Philadelphia as being the “Remnant” of the Assembly. And the posts, which break down the Greek text of Rev. 10:2., and as to how they most definitely imply and “acceptance and divorce”.

      Rev. 10 is the only chapter within the New Testament which contains the transliterated Greek word “Biblaridion” or “little book” which would only contain the names the “remnant” therefore its designation as being referred to as the “little book”. (Matthew 20: 16. and 22: 14., “Many are called, but few are chosen.)

      I believe that Rev. 10:4., is not related at all to that of the seals, for what happens as they are opened by Yeshua is explained within the text of Rev. 6:1., to 8:6.
      Rather, I believe that since John was told not to right them down, that what the seven thunders had said, consist of the actual “sentencing of that judgement”. (Which would be described briefly in Rev. 3:7., to 3:19.).

      Rev. 10:6., describes that the “Age of Grace” that we are currently in has now expired.

      Rev. 10:7., correlates to the seventh angel of Rev. 16:17., (where this chapter, (16) would obviously occur somewhere later on within the book itself as well).

      Rev. 10:8., to 10., describes John taking the little book and then eating it.

      Rev. 11., now says that John must Prophecy again. Well he had just prophesied regarding the revelation to the Churches, and now having entered through the “open door”, he will now prophecy again, (or by definition, “further”) which he does with all of the rest of the book of Revelation itself.

      I believe that this chapter is what occurs during the “Judgement of the Assembly”. It is a vision that John sees and experiences right during or after he enters through the door, (Revelation 4:1.) Then he starts prophesying further after eating the little book.

      Re-Cap;

      The book itself is a mystery for the most part? Though in a way it’s written chronologically, it’s not totally chronological.
      So with that, what was the necessity for God to have John seal something up when probably no follower on earth actually has a thorough understanding any way’s?

      Yeshua begs the question in Luke 18:8., “Will I find faith.”
      We know that Peter tells us that the Church will be judged first.
      We know that in verse 10:2., (through its Greek definitions and etymology), that it expresses “acceptance and divorce”.
      We have “seven Churches” then “seven thunders”.
      When the appointed time of all of the “people, (gentiles) that are to come to Yeshua is completed”, (Romans 11:25.), what will be next is the “judgement”.
      Many of those last individuals, not having the time to fall away, since it will be at the 11th. hour, before midnight, (re; Matthew 25:6., and Matthew 19:30., 20:1-16.), “WILL THEN BE FIRST.”

      When “they come into the Body”, the Body is then complete, then the Court can be seated, the books opened, and the judgement of the church can take place. I believe that the seven thunders could very well be that judgement. Those that “have kept the word of His patience”, either return with Him from heaven, or are caught up to Him together with them in their new white garments.
      Those that didn’t, “keep the word of His patience”, have to stay and earn those garments.

      I also believe that they have been sealed up because Yeshua is seeking those with “faith” out of love and not out of fear.
      If these judgments had been written down, and people complied with what Yeshua has expressed that we do as His disciples out of fear and those consequences, they wouldn’t be doing it from a heart of “love, gratitude and faith”.

      Just my thoughts brothers and sisters.
      Be Blessed in Yeshua and praise be unto His Holy Name.
      Amen.

  27. Marianne,
    The range of the meaning expands from merely concealing a thing, to actually to proving, and confirming that one is who he says he is. A seal (the noun) is a stamp that conceals the contents of a scroll. To seal up (verb) is to conceal that later it may be revealed and prove that the person opening that seal is who he says he is. (d1ab below) In other words, if John just placed a seal (noun) on what was said, it would be concealed forever. but because he sealed up (verb) what was said, it implies an unsealing by the bearer of the signet ring.

    Blessings

    1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

    a) for security: from Satan

    b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret

    c) in order to mark a person or a thing

    1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp

    2) angels are said to be sealed by God

    d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing

    1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt

    a) of a written document

    b) to prove one’s testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

  28. To all my brethren: = Todd I understand what you are saying. The Book of Revelation is written in cycles. John got a Vision and wrote it down. Then he got another Vision and wrote it down in 6 or 7 cycles – remember the day he was living in. I just went through a Verse by verse study of it all winter long. And it was a amazingly great experience. I was also very blessed to have a Pastor who taught me these cycles. It all comes together then.
    Jesus is telling His followers about the enemies we have to Overcome that are listed in the 7 church ages. This is finally getting around to more and more people.

    I do understand Rev. 13 – And what the Image is. It is not some statue that comes to life etc etc. thats going to decieve the World either – Remember Rome was the Beast when John wrote the entire Book of Revelation. That is a fact.

    gotta go for now. ty

  29. Dru,

    I’m not sure “the words of the prophecy of this book” has anything to so with the Little Book and the Seven Thunders (God’s voice). What the Seven Thunders said was not written down. The words were sealed. Later when the the angel tells John NOT to seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, he was referring the the things that HAD been written in the Book of Revelation itself.
    So if John didn’t write down what the Seven Thunders said, then they aren’t recorded in the Book of Revelation (unless John disobeyed God and wrote them down anyway). I understand what you are saying. He could have told John not to write them down, but then secretly hid the words within John’s writing, to be discovered later, but I don’t think that happened. I think you’re reading something into the text that isn’t there.

    Maybe those things were spoken for John’s benefit, but not for ours. This is similar to 2 Corinthians 12:4 where Paul shared that he “was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak” (Thessalonians 2:5). Prophecy is only partial (1 Corinthians 13:9), and God has only revealed what we need to know.
    Or maybe it was something God needed to keep secret from Satan.

    Going back to the oath, the angel proclaimed “that there will be delay no longer, but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.” When the angel says, “there will be delay no longer,” he means that once the Seventh Trumpet is sounded, God will act quickly to establish His righteous rule on earth. Evidently, the Trumpet judgments will take some time to unfold, giving men time to repent (Revelation 6:15-17; 9:20-21), but the Bowl judgments will come very quickly allowing little or no time for repentance (Revelation 16:1-17). The period of God’s patience is over. In fact, the verb translated “finished” is a form of the verb Jesus used at His crucifixion when He cried out, “It is finished” (John 19:30). God is bringing complete closure.
    (Another reason why I think Revelation is sequential. The Seals warn of judgment, the Trumpets judge until God’s patient runs out, and then the Bowls bring judgement swiftly to a close.

    “And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, Seven Thunders uttered their voices.”
    “The king’s wrath is as the roaring of a lion; but his favour is as dew upon the grass” (Proverbs 19:12).

    In the voice of the thunders, God’s wrath will be complete.

    The “mystery of God” refers to the fulfillment of God’s defeat of evil. It describes the good news of the redemption of God’s people (favor) and the bad news of the judgment of the wicked (wrath).

    “And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand” (Daniel 12:7-10).

    The angel says to John “Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey” This is similar to the prophet Ezekiel’s experience. “1 Moreover He said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this roll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. So I opened my mouth, and He caused me to eat that roll. And He said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness… So the Spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me” (Ezekiel 3:1-3, 14). Ezekiel’s “bitterness,” like John’s was bitterness against sin and the impenitence of his hearers.

    “The Lord maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
    He raises up the poor out of the dust, and lifts up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s, and he hath set the world upon them.
    He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
    The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the Lord shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed” (I Samuel 1:8-10).

    I believe that, like Daniel, we are to go our way, “for the words are sealed up until the time of the end.” In other words they won’t be known until they happen. But if I’m wrong and you do find out what they are, let me know. 🙂
    I’ll keep looking, too.

    • Todd,

      Hope that you find the time to read my post above on April 21st. @ 6:28 pm.

      John knew full well what those “seven thunders” consisted of and though they are not written down within the Book of Revelation itself, (though perhaps touched on briefly), the criteria for what was said is described throughout all of Scripture.

      Praise Yeshua our KING of kings.
      Amen.

      • Accepted,
        What exactly does “kept the word of my patience” mean. In my post I mentioned thenthunders had something to do with God’s patience reaching an end, and then the Bowls being poured out, and the redemption of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked (acceptance and divorce?). Could there be a connection?

        • Todd,

          I have posted a more thorough definition regarding “what keeping the word of His patience means” somewhere on this site before, but can’t find it either on the site or within my drafts?

          But basically in Revelation 3:10., we have, “Because thou hast kept the word of my “patience”.

          The translated “patience” there being derived from the Greek “ὑπομονή, transliterated as hypomonē”, defined as, “steadfastness, constancy, endurance, perseverance, one who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings.”

          So there you go.

          Praise be unto Yeshua the Highest.
          Amen

          • Hi Todd,

            I found it🙂

            In Revelation 3:10., Yeshua makes the following statement within his epistle to the Assembly of Philadelphia.

            “Because thou hast kept “the word of my patience”, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

            The necessary requirement to be “kept” from the, “from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world”, is to “keep the word of His patience”.

            On the surface that sounds simple enough doesn’t it?

            However, if we were to delve into the Greek and its root word etymology we should get a better understanding as to what, “keeping the word of His patience” fully consists of.

            The English “thou has kept” is derived from the Greek “τηρέω”, transliterated as “tēreō”, (Strong’s 5083).
            It is a verb and is defined as, “1) to attend to carefully, take care of . a) to guard. b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is. c) to observe. d) to reserve: to undergo something.”

            Tēreō is derived from the transliterated Greek “theōreō”, (Strong’s 2334).
            It is also a verb and is defined as “1) to be a spectator, look at, behold. a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey. 1) to view mentally, consider. 2) to see. a) to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one. b) to discern, descry. c) to ascertain, find out by seeing.”

            Theōreō is derived from the transliterated Greek “theaomai”, (Strong’s 2300).
            it is a prolonged form of a primary verb and is defined as “1) to behold, look upon, view attentively, contemplate (often used of public shows) a) of important persons that are looked on with admiration. 2) to view, take a view of. a) in the sense of visiting, meeting with a person. 3) to learn by looking, to see with the eyes, to perceive.”

            So….. what has been simply written in English as “thou has kept”, would be comprised of all of the above.

            So what is this “patience”, that which we are supposed to keep?

            The English “patience” is derived from the Greek “ὑπομονή”, transliterated as “hypomonē”, (Strong’s 5281).
            It is a feminine noun and is defined as, “1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance. a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings. b) patiently, and steadfastly. 2) a patient, steadfast waiting for. 3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance.”

            Hypomonē is derived from the transliterated Greek “hypomenō”, (Strong’s 5278).
            It is a verb and is defined as, “1) to remain. a) to tarry behind. 2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee. a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ. b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments.”

            Hypomenō is derived from both the transliterated Greek “hypo” (Strong’s 5259), which is a primary preposition and means, “by or under”, and the transliterated Greek “menō” (Strong’s 3306) which is a root word verb.

            Menō is defined as “1) to remain, abide.
            a) in reference to place. 1) to sojourn, tarry. 2) not to depart. a) to continue to be present. b) to be held, kept, continually.
            b) in reference to time.1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure. a) of persons, to survive, live.
            c) in reference to state or condition. 1) to remain as one, not to become another or different.
            2) to wait for, await one.”

            May Yeshua our Blessed Hope provide all of us who seek Him with a pure heart the strength to “keep His patience”.
            Amen.

            • with all those definitions, what does being kept from the hour of temptation mean?

              • Not to be rude,
                “But are you kidding me?”

                If you honestly have difficulty in understanding the above, how did you ever complete a chemistry degree in University?

                A.

                • the classes were in english……and I minored in english, you need to make connections between thoughts.

                  “tēreō” – this view, the kept ones are attended, guarded, and observed during the hour of temptation. they are here , not raptured.

                  “1) to attend to carefully, take care of . a) to guard. b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is. c) to observe. d) to reserve: to undergo something.”

                  theōreō”, (Strong’s 2334). – here it sounds like the true believers are still here as spectators during tribulation. they are watchers.

                  It is also a verb and is defined as “1) to be a spectator, look at, behold. a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey. 1) to view mentally, consider. 2) to see. a) to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one. b) to discern, descry. c) to ascertain, find out by seeing.”

                  Theōreō is derived from the transliterated Greek “theaomai”, (Strong’s 2300). – we are looked upon with admiration, as important…we are viewed

                  it is a prolonged form of a primary verb and is defined as “1) to behold, look upon, view attentively, contemplate (often used of public shows) a) of important persons that are looked on with admiration. 2) to view, take a view of. a) in the sense of visiting, meeting with a person. 3) to learn by looking, to see with the eyes, to perceive.”

                  so to be “kept” from the hour of temptation, we are here and guarded , watched….is this your view?

                  • Marianne,

                    “Tēreō” is relevant to ““thou has kept” as in ““Because “thou hast kept” the word of my patience”, and it has nothing to do with your view as it referring to, “the kept ones are attended, guarded, and observed during the hour of temptation. they are here , not raptured”.

                    It is referring to those that “have kept Yeshua’s sayings, or word”.

                    “Theōreō” is the transliterated root word of “Tēreō”.
                    “Theaomai” is the transliterated root word of “Theōreō”

                    So the context in explaining as to what “thou hast kept” within that particular verse would be comprised, and understood to contain all of the above applicable definitions.

                    Though the verse itself is, “Because thou hast kept “the word of my patience”, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

                    That does not mean that I was providing the definition of the latter part of the verse itself regarding, “I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation etc.”

                    Todd had asked, “What exactly does “kept the word of my patience mean”?

                    So I provided a through explanation for him derived from the Greek and root word etymology.

                    I hope that perhaps clarifies, what it appears that you completely misunderstood the first time.

                    Be Blessed in Yeshua

                    • it is the same word…..keep…….so do you believe we will be “kept” from tribulation in the same way we “keep” the patience….it is the same word, so the definitions apply……my focus was on the word kept…..if the same meaning applies, then there is no rapture….we stay here and are kept, guarded, watched…..etc

                • Oh Marianne,

                  I am so very sorry.
                  In your initial response to my explanation to Todd regarding his question, I was the one that made the mistake.

                  I am so sorry.
                  I read what you had said quickly and didn’t realize that you had actually said, “What does the being kept from the hour of temptation mean”?

                  Where I had thought you wrote, “What does the “has kept the word of His patience ” mean?

                  Hence my response.
                  Oh man, I feel so bad about this.
                  I’m such a Putz sometimes.
                  Please forgive me.

    • Todd,
      Understand this, that Satan lies as wolf in sheeps clothing within the churches. Thus revealing what is sealed cannot happen until the “falling away” occurs first.

      For Years there has been an effort to unify the church (Falsely). Of those that reject this unification, there will come one body….The very Body of Christ, of whom he is the head. For Jesus to return, He would have to either remove his Spirit from man, Or they His Spirit, would have to become one with him…”perfectly one” as Jesus prays in John 17. To that falsely unified church will belong all the signs and wonders, The False prophet will perform. Belief by sight, not by faith. To those who are his body will be only faith in what is not seen. Until these seven thunders sound, and pronounce Judgement on the world. I cannot stress this enough to any who read this.

      I have an off topic question for you. Do you believe that we are at the doorstep of the events described in revelation? If so, should we not expect some of these things which have been sealed up to be revealed to his children? In other words do you have a sense of Imminence about these things?

      blessings

    • Todd,
      Also on this, I do not think the seals warn of Judgements, I think they are tangible Judgements themselves, but are associated with overcoming Satan. He will come out and conquer, with no Arrows, thus he will win a war of words with Christians. Then he will conquer with weapons, then with starvation , plague, persecution, and signs and wonders. These are God’s four Judgements (four horsemen) from the old testament which will be used by Satan to thwart Christians, making this a period of blind faith with which we Overcome. This then will lead to Satan being thrown down from Heaven. Revelation 12:11.

      This War on the saints is seen within the trumpets as well.

      This has prescedent in the Bible. The righteous were narrowed down to 8 at the flood. Israel to a remnant of 7000, and the disciples to only one who stood by his side at the cross (John), And here we will this narrowed down to finally 2 witnesses, and the 144K and those who refuse the MOB. Thus the seventh seal is the vindication for the wrath of God to come on those who believe the lie. Please think about this.

  30. Tom,

    What I meant was you were misunderstanding what people were saying regarding the “mark.”
    The Beast is a Satanic world system that has existed throughout history. Throughout history, Satan, the “god of this world,” has ruled over the kingdoms of man. The Beast is the system he uses. The Heads are the individual kingdoms and kings through which Satan rules. Look at Daniel Chapter 2: the gold Head of the Image represents both Babylon the kingdom and Nebuchadnezzar the king. The Roman Beast was the sixth Head. There will soon be a seventh world empire, the New World Order. In Revelation, the Beast is the eighth Head who rises out of the seventh. This is the Antichrist and his kingdom, through which Satan rules until Jesus returns”
    You seem to be a Preterist. I’m a Preterist-Historicist-Futurist-Allegoricist. In other words, I believe prophecy is about repeating patterns and has multiple fulfillments. All views are true at the same time. Solomon said, “what has been will be again. There is nothing new under the sun.” Revelation HAS been fulfilled. Revelation IS BEING fulfilled. Revelation WILL BE fulfilled.
    I believe God is MUCH greater than all of our puny theories. Believing that prophecy is about ONE prediction and ONE fulfillment is an insult to the eternal God. God is the God of history. He is the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. He directs the course of history, even to the smallest detail. Just as “seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night” shall continue their cycles, so history (His Story) will repeat itself over and over again.

    No the image is probably not a statue that comes to life. But remember the age we are living in: animatronics, cloning, transhumanism, biotechnology, television, etc. The image of the Beast could be any of these. To say events in Revelation are limited to the time of John and they can’t be literal is shortsighted, narrow thinking. The god of this world is preparing humanity for his coming. Technology is a tool he will use to deceive the world. Yes, the “mark of the Beast” is a spiritual mark, but in order to buy or sell, a person must receive a literal mark. Without this literal “mark” what will differentiate between those who can buy or sell, and who can’t?

    Like Cain who traded his spiritual life for protection of his physical life; like Esau who traded his spiritual birthright for a meal; like Judas who traded his soul for 30 pieces of silver – those who receive the “mark” are trading eternal salvation for the temporal things of this world.

    Like baptism is an outward sign (seal) of having the Holy Spirit, so the “Mark of the Beast” will be an outward sign of having the spirit of the antichrist.

  31. I agree.

  32. Marianne..I was looking for way to send this link private..anyway this is an archived link to a web site that has been taken down that has a lot of end time info and articles.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20111118112917/https://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/

    there has been some blogs that have popped up discretting her since the site went down however the info that I located has disproven what they put up..for example a certain calvinist blog site cliamed she was an amillenist/ pretrist/ one of those who don’t believe that the book of Revelation is literal. on her web site she she is post trib rapture actual return of Jesus Christ… any way hope the info helps you on your blog…Byron

  33. Marianne,

    No room to reply to your post of April 21st. @ 11:28 pm. above.

    You are taking just one verse and neglecting the rest of Scripture.
    There is an “open door” in Matthew 25:10 where those “wise virgins” who were ready, (ἕτοιμος or hetoimos, “ready, prepared to receive one coming”), get to walk through it.
    There is a “open door” within Revelation 3:8., for the Church of Philadelphia in which those that have “kept His word of patience” also get to go through.

    Then the very last time that the word “door” or the transliterated “thyra” is used in all of Revelation is in Rev. 4:1., where John is caught up to heaven.

    You can go ahead and believe that these that have proven their faith already, will be left here and be protected while going through the fulness of the tribulation, with those that have been disobedient, if that is what you wish to believe.

    However, I believe that God has a different plan, and that it is all revealed within the fulness of Scripture.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua our Holy KING of kings.
    Amen.

    • I was just wondering if the word study (kept) affected your opinion of a rapture….and the timing of it

      • Nope!
        🙂

        • Marianne,

          Don’t get me wrong here, this is not my personal hope to escape what is going to come, because I am not sure as to whether or not I am going to actually have the opportunity to walk through that “open door” myself. That is solely up to Yeshua and what the reason for my creation is.
          I may very well be left like many others will be, though for a different reason.

          Just thought that I would clarify my position on this.

          Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Glorious and Holy Savior.
          Amen.

      • Marianne,

        “Those who keep (tereo) my word…will keep (tereo)…from (ek)…the hour…”

        The first keep is used alone, the second keep is used in combination with the word “ek.”

        “ek” means “out of, from, by, away from.”

        So, it could mean:

        “Those who keep my word…I will keep out of…the hour…”
        “Those who keep my word…I will keep from…the hour…”
        “Those who keep my word…I will keep away from…the hour…”

        • todd

          I wonder if the “out of,” “from,” and “away from” indicates that we will be here but protected, or off this earth.

          • Hi Marianne,

            The fact that Jesus says, that this hour of trial is going to come upon the [whole world] would suggest that there were will be no where to hide. Also, don’t you think that if he meant that we were going to be preserved here on the earth that he would have said, “I will keep you through it” or “I will keep you in it?” To be “Kept from it” means that we will not even be exposed to it and that because it will envolve the entire earth. This is Jesus inference that we will be removed from the world so as to be kept from that hour of trial. In relation to our being kept from that hour of trial, consider what Jesus said in the following:

            “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and [that day] will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the [whole earth]. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to [escape] all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

            Again, Jesus refers to day of the Lord, that hour of trial, as coming upon all those who live on the face of the “Whole earth.” Notice that he uses the word “escape.” Since this is going to affect the entire earth and those who live on it, there would be no where to escape to.

            Also, after Paul gave the details for the resurrection and catching away, he then says,

            “While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brother and sisters are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief…”

            He says “they will not escape. But you brothers.” The “But you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of not escaping. There would be no difference for either party if we were both to remain here on the earth for the day of the Lord, for neither group would escape. The escape that Paul is referring to is what he just previously describe regarding the resurrection and catching away, that is, our escape will be our removal from the earth.

            We will never even see that man of lawlessness, for we will be removed before he is revealed.

  34. Bro. Todd – it is good to have you aboard brother.

    To say events in Revelation are limited to the time of John and they can’t be literal is shortsighted, narrow thinking.

    Amen – I was using that as an example for today- Yes I do agree with you on most these subjects. If people Today could see into John’s day by history which is Perfect 20/20 vision. They would also see our day in this present time. God does not change his pattern. . Jesus Christ the same, yesterday, today, and forever.

    You also said — Technology is a tool he will use to deceive the world. Yes, the “mark of the Beast” is a spiritual mark, but in order to buy or sell, a person must receive a literal mark. Without this literal “mark” what will differentiate between those who can buy or sell, and who can’t?

    My Answer is- Gal. 5:6 Faith that worketh by Love. And
    REV:12:11 And they OVERCOME him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the WORD=faith of their testimony; and they LOVED not their lives unto the death.
    2. How did the 2 million that came out of Egypt with Moses survive. They walked according to the Word of God and Thus saith the Lord through Moses. And God supplied all their needs.
    3. Rev. 12 the same way – Michael defeated the Dragon, Then God gave the Woman 2 wings to fly like a Great Eagle Rev. 4:7 . Then God open up the earths mouth and swallowed up the Dragon’s flood. Who is likened unto our God — He has never lost a battle.

    Also you said – Like baptism is an outward sign (seal) of having the Holy Spirit, so the “Mark of the Beast” will be an outward sign of having the spirit of the antichrist.
    1. So true – Your “forehead” =mind and Right “Hand” servitude – To be a good citizen in the world it also takes — the Mind, Soul =Spirit, and Body – The Beastly Nations expect your life to them as well.

    Anti- 500 antichristos 473 and 5547;
    1. antichrist 2. the adversary of the Messiah
    473 – over against – opposite to – instead of – in place of
    2. The world is an adversary against the Holy Spirit along with multitudes of Church’s. The world is the civilization of mankind –
    3. You see the trend in USA and World now is getting worse all the time against Christian morals and standards.

    Christ- 1. To anoint- consecrating – Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with the necessary powers for its administration
    2. enduing Christians with the gifts of the Holy Spirit
    3. All that Christ was He poured into His church – We got it all. Praise God.

    Lord bless you – Todd

  35. Accepted,

    I don’t believe that Adam and Eve had ALREADY eaten from the Tree of Life. They were not immortal. They were “naked” in the Garden, not yet clothed in righteousness they would have had if they had eaten from the Tree of Life.

    The story of Adam and Eve is the story of EVERY person who ever lived. We are born “naked,” without a knowledge of good and evil AND without Life.
    The choice Adam and Eve was given is the same choice that is held out before ALL men.

    If they had eaten from the Tree of Life they wouldn’t have died from eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Can a person who has faith in Jesus die because he breaks a commandment. No, because in the Tree of Life there is forgiveness.

    God gave them two trees. It was part of God’s plan that Adam and Eve eat from the Tree of Knowledge. That is why God placed Satan in the Garden. They NEEDED to eat from the Tree of Knowledge in order to see their nakedness. The Tree of knowledge was given as a “tutor” to lead them to the Tree of Life.

    Let me tell you a story about the Two Trees. I wrote this based on a sermon I heard once.

    The Story of the Cross is a story about Grace and Law. Two Trees: one on either side, with Jesus in the middle. It is the great controversy that has raged since the Garden and which will continue to rage until the end.

    There is a decision held out before Adam and Eve. Two Trees. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life. One Tree represent the Law, the works of our hands. The other represents Grace. God warns Adam and Eve to never eat of the Tree of Knowledge, lest they die. And even though Adam and Eve make the wrong choice, God goes looking for them.

    And where is God standing when He gave His command?
    I would like to suggest that when God was speaking to Adam and Eve, He was standing in the middle of those two trees. And as He was speaking, one of the trees was on His left, and one was on His right. The Tree on the right is alive. It’s a Tree of grace and of love. The Tree on the left is a Tree of works.

    “As the soldiers led Him away…a large number of people followed Him, including women who mourned and wailed for Him. Jesus turned and said to them, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the childless women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then,

    “‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
    and to the hills, “Cover us!”’
    For if people do these things when the TREE is green, what will happen when it is dry?” (Luke 23:26-31)

    In Luke 23 Jesus referred to Himself as the green Tree. Genesis is a story of what happens in Luke 23.
    Adam and Eve picked the wrong Tree; they sinned and left the Garden.
    How did God solve the problem? He becomes the New Adam. He enters into the world Himself. He becomes a human being, made of the dust of the earth. And even though Adam and Eve had made the wrong choice, God recreates the story of the Garden of Eden at the foot of the Cross. So the Lord walks right into the middle of the story, and on one side of Him is one Tree. On the other side is the other Tree. On one side is a criminal who puts his faith in Him. On the other side is a criminal who curses Him. In the center of the Garden of Eden is the Lord, the creator Himself, taking all of Adam and Eve’s sins, all the sins of the world, and leaving the world with the same decision then as now. Do we want the Lord of Life, His love and His grace, kindness and mercy, or do we want to do our own thing our own way, measuring ourselves by the things we accomplish or do?

    On the Cross, Jesus is surrounded by evil, purposely put in the center of the story, mocked and humiliated (Psalm 22:16).
    On the left side of Jesus someone cries out, “Aren’t you the Christ? Then save us. Do something! The tree of human accomplishment, the works of the flesh, the sinful nature, demanding that Jesus get him off the cross. Self-righteousness. Fig leaves. The Law.
    On the right someone whispers, Don’t you fear the Lord; we are guilty, we broke the Law, we are getting what we deserve. We have fallen short of the glory of God and we deserve death. We are condemned and there is nothing we can do to save ourselves.
    There was only one thing this thief could hope for: mercy. And as he looked into the eyes of his Creator and said “Remember me,” His creator cried, “I tell you the truth, Today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”
    That is grace.
    The Garden of Eden travelled through 4000 years of human history and Jesus is crucified in the very spot where He once had spoken to Adam and Eve about two trees.

    Jerusalem was, is and always will be the center of the universe, the place where God put His Name. And in that very place where God placed Adam and Eve and warned them in great love, to never go away from Him and do their own thing, He cried out, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do.” From the beginning of time the story of the cross has been the center of all God was, is, and will be doing.
    The world is divided into two groups: those who receive grace, and those who reject it. And every person who ever lived will stand either on one side of our Lord, or the other.

    • Hi Todd,

      I will still go by what is written within Scripture.

      The Tree of Life is not Yeshua, but it is symbolic of Yeshua.
      The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, is not the Mosaic Covenant, but is symbolic of the Mosaic Covenant.

      We have the Garden of Eden and God has placed both Trees within it.
      He say’s in Genesis 2:16,17.;

      “And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat”: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

      Therefore by what is written, God only placed a restriction on one particular Tree, and had not stated anything regarding the Tree of Life.

      Eve more or less confirms this while being beguiled by satan, in Genesis 3:2,3. After satan had questioned Eve regarding every Tree she responded with;
      “And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.”

      In the Book of Enoch the Tree of Life is described, and by that description the fruit looked sumptuous and to be desired, and since God had not stipulated any restrictions in eating from it, I suspect that they would have. (I believe that this is also possibly why it took so long for Adam to die after being evicted from Eden.)

      They were naked as God had created them, but it was only after they ate from the Tree of knowledge were they aware of that fact.
      To me by what you are writing to defend what you believe in your 3rd. paragraph above, you are associating the Tree of Life that was in Eden as being One and the same as Yeshua Himself, and in my opinion that would be incorrect.

      I agree with what you say within your 4th. paragraph. This is all a part of Gods plan and He wasn’t surprised one bit when satan beguiled Eve, and then Adam ate of the fruit as well.

      I also agree with the rest of what you say, but that doesn’t mean that Adam and Eve never ate from the Tree of life while in the Garden of Eden. They were innocent and perfect as Gods creation then and God the Father had not told them that they couldn’t eat from it at all.

      I think that there is more for all of us to learn here somehow regarding this?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious Everything.
      Amen.

      • Hi Todd,

        This is how I see the Garden of Eden.
        It was a “type” of what is to come. God created a specific place where He could have relationship on earth with His creation that was made in Their image.

        Before both Adam and Eve ate from the “Tree of Knowledge”, they were completely innocent and without sin. Scripture does more than indicate that there was no restrictions issued by God to not eat from the “Tree of Life”, and they both had free access to the “Tree of Life” since it was in the Garden as well.
        Therefore I believe that it is not a stretch to conclude that they had both partaken of its fruit, and while being obedient to Gods commandment, were in a immortal state.

        Now what must be decided next is this;
        1- Did the eating from the fruit of the “Tree of Knowledge” then override the state of immortality that they both possessed? Did that act actually cause for death to come into existence?

        Or

        2- Did God instead declare that “death” would be the consequence and punishment for disobedience?

        The Scripture that is recorded within Genesis 3:17-19., would indicate the latter of the two above.

        Therefore “death” was the resulting punishment for being disobedient to God, (which is a running theme throughout all of Scripture).

        Now, the concern that is expressed within Genesis 3:22-24., (especially that of verse 22), is that if Adam and Eve would eat from the “Tree of Life” now, they would live forever in their their current state.

        Please allow me to address something that you had stated above, you say, “If they had eaten from the Tree of Life they wouldn’t have died from eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Can a person who has faith in Jesus die because he breaks a commandment. No, because in the Tree of Life there is forgiveness.”

        Above you are associating “the Tree of Life as being one and the same with Yeshua”. Well, did the “Tree of Life” shed its blood for the forgiveness and remission of sins? No I don’t believe that it did. The “Tree of Life” though a type of sorts is not the Son of God the Father. And if I happen to be wrong with that statement, there is the fact that the “Tree of Life” at that time, hadn’t shed its blood for the salvation of mankind. So either way, your statement is without foundation.

        I suspect that you would agree that it is God the Fathers plan to “restore” the Garden and His relationship with man. This is in the process of being accomplished through the Grace of Yeshua and His shed blood. Each step within this plan has a following necessary step which must come to fruition as planned. And I suspect that the next Garden will far surpass that of the first. However I don’t believe that your argument above proves what it is that you believe, regarding as to whether or not both Adam and Eve happened to have eaten from the fruit of the Tree of life, or that as a type of what will be revealed in the future, that they weren’t in a state of immortality having been created in Their image.

        Just my thoughts brother.
        Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy Everything.
        Amen.

  36. Bro. Tom

    Yes, faith working itself out in love is a sign, a “mark” for BELIEVERS, but NOT for UNBELIEVERS. Unbelievers will choose to receive a literal mark so that they can buy or sell in the New World Order economic system. They will need something literal, like a credit card in order to buy and sell. They will only be able to obtain this “mark/card/chip” if they worship the Antichrist.

    If person goes to a store to buy something, they will not be able to buy it unless they show proof of their allegiance to the Antichrist. In the ancient Roman Empire, there was an image of Caesar at the entrance to the marketplace (I think it was in Ephesus). No one could enter the marketplace unless they bowed down to the image of Caesar and paid homage to him. Obviously, Christians were not able to enter the marketplace because they refused to bow down. Many were arrested and killed.

    So, tell me, according to your opinion, what was the “Mark of the Beast” during the time of John. What was the “mark” that people needed in order to buy and sell in the marketplace? And what was the “image” of the Beast that people worshipped?

    Prophecy is also about foreshadows. God uses past events in history to foreshadow future events. So the events at the time of John were merely shadows of events that will occur at the end. Shadows are imperfect, can be distorted, elongated, foreshortened, and have no detail. You can’t see what a person looks like by looking at their shadow. In the same way, you can see the “shape” of events to come based on past events, but not the exact details. The shadow (the events during the time of John ) are intangible. The events of the future that they foreshadow are literal. The shadow has no substance. The body making the shadow has substance. For this reason, the future events will be literal, including the “Mark of the Beast.”

    (Actually, out of the two million that came out of Egypt with Moses, only TWO survived, and one of them wasn’t even Moses! God did supply their needs, but they all, except for Moses, Joshua and Caleb, died in the wilderness because of unbelief – Hebrews 3).

    • Hi Todd ott and all,

      Here is my take on the Mark of the Beast. First of all, though there are shadows of things to come, that does not always mean that something simular has come before it or that there even has to be a shadow. The Mark of the beast is unprecedented in that, one, the restrainer has been holding the man of lawlessness back so that he can be [revealed at the proper time], meaning that there is a set time for this beast and this event. And two, the mark that is coming must be used in relation to the currect technology, that is, via iphone, computer, automatic deduction, etc., for It will be an electronic transaction, just as it is now. The system for this is already set up with the debit card as the key. The only thing that has to change is for that man of lawlessness to be revealed and the initiation of that mark, which will replace all other methods of buying and selling. As I said, this mark is unprecedented in that, anyone who does not have the mark won’t be able to buy anything anywhere in the world at all, and that because it will be needed to access ones bank account, just as it is with the debit card.

      For a long time now, the world has been pushing for electonic payments and the result is that, cash and checks are being used less and less. People are currently being programmed and conditioned to use this system without even realizing it. When that man of lawlessness is revealed and that mark begins to be in use, at some point cash, checks, credit and debit will be made obsolete. From that time on they will no longer be valid forms of payment and the only valid form of buying and selling (crediting and debiting) will be via that subdermal device in the right hand or forehead. This will fulfill the verse which says, “He forces/causes all” and since the mark will be the only way to credit and debit ones bank account, then people will then have no other option (He forces) other then to receive it if they want to continue being able to buy gas, food, pay mortgages, utilities, etc. So, those who want save their lives will receive it and by doing so will align themselves with the beast and his world system. Those who don’t receive it, will not be able access their accounts or even have one and that because, just like the debit card is now, the mark will be the key to performing all financial transactions. They will refuse the mark in order to keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, these will be the great tribulation saints.

      The mark of the beast is meant as a trap and will be that proverbial line drawn in the sand, making a definite distinction between believer and unbeliever during that last seven years. Jesus said, whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake and the gospel will have eternal life. After all the other options for buying and selling have been made obsolete, it will force people to make a choice to receive it or not receive it, but as I said, people are already being programmed and conditioned via the debit card. Currently, people use electronic payment out of convienence, so what do you think they are going to do when their very lives depend on receiving it?

      The inhabitants of the earth–whose names have not been written in the book of life from the beginnging of the world will eagerly receive it in order to continue on with their live. Also, seeing how willingly people tatto and body pierce themselves, I don’t think that it will be that big of a stretch to have their own personal subdermal device implanted in order to be able to continue buying and selling. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.” (Rev.14:9-12)

      “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for every and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast ad it image, or for anone who receives the mar of its name. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.” (Rev.14:9-12)

  37. Dear bro. dmcal52 – A qucik comment on your first paragraph here.

    The Mark of the beast is unprecedented in that, one, the restrainer has been holding the man of lawlessness back so that he can be [revealed at the proper time], meaning that there is a set time for this beast and this event. And two, the mark that is coming must be used in relation to the currect technology, that is, via iphone, computer, automatic deduction, etc., for It will be an electronic transaction, just as it is now. The system for this is already set up with the debit card as the key. The only thing that has to change is for that man of lawlessness to be revealed and the initiation of that mark, which will replace all other methods of buying and selling.

    I understand what you are say dear brother. All I am saying is that – Being Excommunicated in Israel was the same thing in those days. Now take that same situation into the Imperial Roman Empire – You had to bow down to Ceasar and say Caesar is Lord or you was Excommuicated from their society. Just as Israel did. And in most cases Rome would cut your head off.

    Now lets take the Image of the Beast which was “Risen up” to replace Imperial Rome that ruled in Johns day.
    It was the Papal Roman Empire who is still with us today. In the Dark Ages they did the same thing. If you did not Worship the Pope. You was excommunicated and millions were tortured and slain. Like Caesar you have to bow down to him just to talk to him. anti-christ to the core. The same power just wrapped up in Religion Christianity. Deceiving the whole world. this is the “Imagery” of the Beast that was in Johns day.

    Now to day it is happening with the One World government. Taking over the World. I Believe that Christianity will be outlawed again except for Rome mixing all other religions to her. They have already started this. Colorado made it a law you cannot call anybody a Homosexual in an bad way are you will spend time in the big house. What does that mean to us Christians. The Bible is what says it – So right there in 2009 started the bible being outlawed in America. So will Christians that read the bible be persecuted.
    The Catholic church also supported Hitler in WW-2 till they knew he was going to get defeated.

    But like you said – The Mark will be like you said above – But the World has already taken the Mark of the Beast so they will have NO POWER =authority of faith and no Love for Jesus to resist it. They live in Darkness but the Bride lives in Light. The world lives is dillusion and the Bride sees the truth. So yes its Spiritual blindess and Physical emptyness that doom them. Great but dreadful day.

    Hope this helps – Im not trying to build a wedge between brothers. Just stating what I see coming very soon.

    Lord Bless you dmcal for your thoughs as well. The Spritual man knows what to expect but the World does not see it. And will take it just like you say they will. Who shall be able to stand.

    You said that man of lawlessness is to be revealed – I see that already fulfilled. He is revealed – just look at the world today all over. Darkness everwhere. Except in New Jerusalem. Multitudes of Sons of Perdition fill the earth as I speak. We are way out numbered in a liteal sense. Just like Noahs day. They all lost out.

    • Good comment Tom,
      I think most will agree with this, Just like John said, ” many antichrists (plural)have come” which was preceded by “antichrist (singular) is coming”
      1 John 2:18

      Antichrist is both a spirit, and a person.

      3 and every SPIRIT that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the SPIRIT of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.(1 John 4:3)

      7 For many deceivers (plural) have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a ONE is THE deceiver and THE antichrist. [singular](2 john 7)

      Thus the spirit of antichrist is at work in the world, and has led to many a deception already, But A ONE is coming who is THE antichrist.

      This is corraborated by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8

      “7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one (Anomos) will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.”

      The “man of lawlessness” has been here with us throughout the past 2000 years….The son of perdition, of which Judas was first. But the “lawless ONE” is coming at a time in the future.
      Blessings

  38. Good post dru but I still think the Lawless one is already here.

    We call the the church — The BODY of Christ — amen
    Nations can be called – One nation under God, in the Pledge of allegence.
    Every Nation has to have a HEAD man in charge. Obama, Putin, Nero, Hitler, Pope , etc. etc.

    Lord bless you brother – bro ty

    • Tom,
      I am making a distinction between the “man of Lawlessness”, and the “Lawless One” found in 2 thess. 2. If you read the text, you will see that one goes to perdition, while the other is Killed by Jesus at his second coming. Even the word translated as destroy, in the KJV in verse 8 is “Katargeo”, which means to render idle, unemploy, and inactivate. In revelation we have Satan, who is thrown down to earth, and then later chained for a thousand years, not destroyed, as in utter destruction which is the meaning of perdition.

      Think about it in this way.
      A. I have this bottle which I am going to smash on the ground to a million pieces
      B. And I have this glass which I am not going to use anymore.

      People assume that A=B, But based on the Language, this makes no sense.
      Yes both are made of glass….and yes both will not be relevent at some time in the future. But that does not make them both the same glass vessel.

      Do you understand?

      I do understand your analogy….which points to our illustrious leader, and yes I agree, that the lawless one is here already, but has not gone to perdition yet.!!

      God bless

      • Hi dru,

        The text in 2 Thessalonians 2:3., reads;
        “Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”
        Perdition or apōleia, “the son of destruction.”

        If by what you are saying that you believe the text is speaking about two different beings, (though verse 9 states that he receives his power through that of satan), I believe that the text of 2 Thessalonians 2: 3-4 & 8-9 are all speaking about the same entity.

        Just my take brother.
        I don’t see the text speaking about more that one being there.
        Be Blessed in Yeshua our KING of Righteousness.
        Amen.

        • A

          Why Would Paul use such different verbs to describe the outcome of the Man of lawlessness…..perdition (I know a noun is used here, but implied in “son of perdition” is a person who is desroyed), (utter destruction) and the Lawless one….katargeo ( to render idle, unemployed, inactivate, inoperative) Or “analisko” the word translated as “consume” (as in money, to consume, use up, destroy ) in the KJV regarding the Lawless one?

          Why not just use a word like “phoneuō” which means to “Kill, slay or murder”, or even “apokteinō” which means “to kill in any way whatever” for the lawless one?

          Awaiting your response….
          God bless

          • Dru,

            What I believe that Paul is expressing there in that verse is that the “man of sin” is the son of satan “that causes destruction”.

            It is in reference to what “he” does, and not in the context of “what happens to him”.

            Just my take as briefly as possible.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy and Glorious Savior.

            Amen.

            A.

      • Dru,

        You are doing the same thing that others have done. Because 144,000 are mentioned in both chapter 7 and 14, they claim that there two groups of 144,00. Some recently claimed that there are two books of life and that because the designatioin of “Lamb” was included in one of the renderings. Now you are claiming that there is a “man of lawlessness,” and a “Lawless one” and that just because Paul refers to him with a little variation regarding his designation . There is only one man of lawlessness coming and his side-kick, the false prophet. The man of lawlessness and the lawless one are one and the same person. The fact that Paul mentions the “man of lawlessness” in 1 Thes.2:3 and then makes reference to the “lawless one” in 1 Thes.2:8 would show that he is speaking about the same person. It would be gramatically improper in any lanuage to refer to one person and then mention a completly different person without introducing him as such. The reference to him going to his destruction, is because Jesus is the one sending him to his destruction when he returns to end the age and set up his kingdom as stated in chapter 19.

        The enemy of Christ, is known by the following designations: The Ruler, the beast, the eighth king who belongs to the seven, the man of lawlessness, the lawless one and the antichrist. These are all one and the same man whom Jesus will destroy in the lake of fire at his coming.

        Katargeo: Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

        katargéō (from 2596 /katá, “down to a point,” intensifying 691 /argéō, “inactive, idle”) – properly, idle down, rendering something inert (“completely inoperative”); i.e. being of no effect (totally without force, completely brought down); done away with, cause to cease and therefore abolish; make invalid, abrogate (bring to nought); “to make idle or inactive”

        The word above appears to basically means that he will be taken out of commission, inoperative, but not annihilated.

        Oye Vey!

        • To make my point, as an example, please see the following:

          “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”
          (Mt.24:29)

          “The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth”
          (Rev.6:12)

          One verse states that the sun and moon will both be darkened and the other verse states that the sun will be darkened and the moon will be turned blood red. Because they are described differently, does this make them different events? No! They are the same event with a varied description. The moon being turned blood red does not constitute it as being a different event. In the same way (Tom) the “Book of Life” given the designation as “The Lamb’s book of life” does not contitute a second book.

          In like manner, just because the “Man of Lawlessnes” is referred to as the “Lawless one,” neither does this constitute two different individuals.

          Yours in Christ

  39. Tom (and Dru),

    Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for [THE DAY OF THE LORD] will not come until THE REBELLION occurs and the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the LAWLESS ONE will be revealed, whom the Lord JESUS WILL OVERTHROW with the breath of his mouth and DESTROY by the SPLENDOR OF HIS COMING.

    “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come” I John 2:18).

    “Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the SPIRIT OF THE ANTICHRIST, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world” (I John 4:2).

    First of all, the DAY OF THE LORD and THE REBELLION (“falling away”) will not come until the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED.
    Second, the LAWLESS ONE will be OVERTHROWN by Jesus at His coming, which is the DAY OF THE LORD.
    This tells us that the Man of Lawlessness AND the Lawless One will appear at the time of Jesus’ coming.
    It follows, then, that neither the Man of Lawlessness NOR the Lawless One could have been in the world until recently. (Unless they are very, very old.)
    And since we know there will be only ONE Antichrist, the Man of Lawlessness AND the Lawless One are the same person, the Antichrist.

    Third, John’s readers have heard that Antichrist is coming.
    John tells them that ANTICHRIST is coming because it is the “LAST HOUR.”
    The LAST HOUR is the DAY OF THE LORD, therefore John is saying that ANTICHRIST will come at the DAY OF THE LORD.

    John says the SPIRIT of the Antichrist is ALREADY in the world, and many antichrists are also in the world. But NONE of the Antichrists have been OVERTHROWN by Jesus at His second coming.

    Therefore, there have been many antichrists in the world that deny that Jesus has come in the flesh, but none of these have been THE Antichrist that will be revealed just prior the Jesus’ coming, who “will exalt himself over everything that is called God, or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s Temple, proclaiming himself to be God, and who is destroyed by Jesus at His coming.

    The “many antichrists” are false christs, false teachers, and false prophets.

    The Man of Lawlessness, the Lawless One, the Antichrist, the Beast, the Eighth King, are all the same person who is destroyed, consumed, thrown alive into the Lake of Fire.

    Fourth, this ONE Antichrist is different from the MANY antichrists. There have been MANY ANTICHRIST because the SECRET POWER OF LAWLESSNESS is in the world. But because the secret power of lawlessness is being held back THE ANTICHRIST is also being held back. Until now SATAN has been prevented from giving any antichrist the power to rule the WORLD, but when the one who HOLDS IT BACK is taken away, THE ANTICHRIST will rise to world power.

  40. Well said Todd,

    The only things that I would add are that the “Day of the Lord” also includes the resurrection and catching away, as can be seen in the following verses:

    “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

    Above, Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away, then he says,

    “Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”

    In referring to the “times and dates” Paul would have to be referring to what he was just speaking about, which is the resurrection and catching away, with the wrath of God to follow. The resurrection and catching away is what initiates the day of the Lord and the wrath is what follows. The day of the Lord begins with the resurrection and catching away and includes the entire period of wrath.

    also, the verse which says:

    “Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ”

    This above verse is misread and that because in the following verse it has the restrainer being removed (Holy Spirit), then that man of lawlessness is revealed. When the restrainer is removed, we are removed, then the man of lawlessness is revealed.

    “That day” will not come until the rebellion occurs (Insert, ‘that day’) and the man lawlessness is revealed.

    Rebellion – Our being gathered – Man of lawlessness revealed

    The restrainer being removed is synonymous with our being gathered to him.

    [1] for that day

    The order of events is:

    (1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle’s time 2Th 2:7

    (2) the apostasy of the professing church 2Th 1:3 Lk 18:8 2Tim 3:1-8.

    (3) the removal of that which restrains the mystery of lawlessness 2Th 2:6,7. The restrainer is a person–“he,” and since a “mystery” always implies a supernatural element, this Person can be none other than the Holy Spirit in the church, to be “taken out of the way” 2Th 2:7 1Th 4:14-17.

    (4) the manifestation of the lawless one 2Th 2:8-10 Dan 7:8 9:27 Mt 24:15 Rev 13:2-10

    (5) the coming of Christ in glory and the destruction of the lawless one 2Th 2:8 Rev 19:11-21

    Yours in Christ

    • Hey Guys,
      I am making a subtle point here that the man of lawlessness, need not look like the Lawless one. Kind of like Clark Kent and Superman. The seventh and the eight mountain are the same thing, yet look different. The seventh is revealed, and replaced by the eighth. The eighth is revealed at the second coming. See rev. 17.

      And also, That the one who kills the seventh, may in fact be the eighth. Think about that, But not too long cause smoke will come billowing out your ears.

      I am not trying to lead you up the wrong tree, but instead onto a different branch on the same tree. There is a different view from that branch.

      Here is a comment I often get. If BHO is the AC, then there is no way Israel will see him as their messiah. But if we Look at history, the Antichrist spirit has been found in egyptian pharohs, Babylonian kings, Roman Ceasers, Popes, and presidents. Who is to say the nextone wil not look more messianic, and even kill the One who is revealed first. Remember, we are talking about demonically possessed leaders here.

      God bless

      • Hi Dru,

        I understand what you are saying.

        That the Antichrist could very well be present here and now, (somewhere on the planet), but has as of yet, not been totally revealed.

        But here is something that we must all take into consideration too;
        If the Antichrist is going to be believed as being the Messiah, he is going to be believed as being such by the Orthodox Jews.
        Therefore, (though falsely), he will present himself to them as being “Messiah ben David”.

        To do this he will have to save them and the state of Israel from some major calamity. As well, he must also fulfill some of the aspects of Scripture and Prophecy, as being of the genealogy of King David, or being born in Bethlehem before he will be totally believed as being the long awaited Messiah.

        Israel and the city of Jerusalem will be the epicenter of where all of this will originate. This is described by Yeshua within His prophecy of Matthew 24. And the Antichrist will not be able to proclaim himself as being God, unless he has first demonstrated his Messiah-ship.

        Now, if we believe that a gathering based upon 1 Thess. 4:13-18., and 2 Thess.2:1-10., etc. occurs prior to this Antichrist being revealed, then those that are referred to as the “elect or chosen” and are told to flee within Matthew 24, would be those believers from the Church or Assembly of Laodicea.

        Just some thoughts.
        Be Blessed in our Glorious Savior. Yeshua our Salvation and Righteousness.

        Amen.

        • Hi guys!

          If I may, the main reason that everyone involved will be deceived is because the beast’s buddy, the false prophet, will be performing miracles, signs and wonders, which is what will give credibility to the beast’s claim of being God. This is not going to just be another political leader that the world is used to seeing, not to mention the deception that takes place by the beast personally, which is that fatal wound that he survives. The fatal wound means that it is a mortal wound, something that can’t be survived and that event is another reason why many will be deceived. After all, if you’re performing miracles, signs and wonders, you’ve got power, although the inhabitants of the world won’t realize that they are Satanic counterfeits.

          Yours in Christ

          • To all,

            Interestingly enough, the very first time the phrase false prophet is mentioned with New Testament Scripture is in Acts 13:6.;
            “And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name [was] Barjesus:”

            But Don, the beast is around long before the false prophet shows up.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Hope and Glory.
            Amen.

  41. Don,
    Yes, the Day of the Lord includes all of the events during the Tribulation period.

  42. Dru,
    The Beast is ONLY the eighth Head. And Clark Kent and Superman ARE the same person. The only difference is, one wears a suit and has glasses, and one wears tights, but no glasses.
    And speaking of glasses:
    Maybe you should move to another branch. There must be a bird’s nest obstructing you view. Or maybe its the smoke billowing out YOUR ears obstructing your view. Or maybe the bird… never mind. 🙂

    ( Actually, we can’t move to another branch because we are the branches, grafted in. )

    I think you should just say “uncle.” The two are one and the same. If it was the eighth who killed the seventh, then Daniel would have said that ANOTHER Little Horn will arise and put down the first Little Horn and then the second Little Horn who put down the first Little Horn would then put down three of the Ten Horns.

  43. Well said Toddott,

    If I may once again, the seventh king can’t kill the eight king and that because the seventh king and eighth are separated by 1800 to 1900 years.

    Five have fallen: At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, five of those kings had already come and gone.

    One is: That is, the sixth king was ruling at the time that the angel was giving John this information.

    Seventh King: At the time that the angel was speaking with John, this seventh king had not yet come and that because the sixth king was still ruling, but after the sixth king he came and ruled for a short time. For John this seventh king was future, but to us he has come and gone.

    Eighth king: He belongs to the seven (In their lineage). This is that man of lawlessness, the beast, the antichrist, the lawless one, etc. This man is still future and will be revealed when he makes that covenant with many for one ‘seven’.

    So you see, the seventh king could not kill the eighth king and that because they are at least 1800 to 1900 years apart.

    Yours in Christ

    • To all,
      First of all, I want to say, I am not saying the following because of people debating my comments. I Love a good debate, especially if God is glorified. I will explain this once. I will not defend it, and you will see why soon.

      Don, who is the seventh of eight by your estimation then? Nero?, cause he was the sixth. At the time john wrote, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo persian and Greek empires had fallen. One is, which is Rome…pretty obvious.

      Now the Seventh remains for a little while, so this would rule out the Pope, cause they have been around for some time in comparison to the other six.

      And since Rome, there has been no world power anywhere’s near what Rome was. This would thus rule out the Holy Roman empire, the ottomans, what have you. In fact the closest we have is the modern United States whose money is used to trade commodities across the world, even in Russia, and communist china. What Tom was pointing out above, is that our Dollar says “In God we Trust”, “One nation under God” etc. Here is his comment:

      “Good post dru but I still think the Lawless one is already here.

      We call the the church — The BODY of Christ — amen
      Nations can be called – One nation under God, in the Pledge of allegence.
      Every Nation has to have a HEAD man in charge. Obama, Putin, Nero, Hitler, Pope , etc. etc.

      Lord bless you brother – bro ty”

      In a sense, every president since the founding has been declared God here in the U.S. Just because you disagree with Tom’s particular version of theology, you are ignoring a very wise connection on his Part. In fact Revelation 17: 9 says “this calls for a mind of wisdom”. What he in effect is saying is that the U.S. is the seventh Kingdom, and its Head is the Antichrist.
      Its influence is via the dollar, which every nation must use to buy or sell. Its Dollar says in God we trust, which is Akin to saying that the head of that country.

      Now This being the seventh, will be for a short while. 1990-2013 would qualify as a short while still….that was the fall of the soviet economy, and its switch over to dollars on the open market.

      Now this dollar is set to collapse….perdition of the kingdom and the king. from the ashes will arise the new kingdom, which is the same as the seventh, yet significantly different it that it will seem heaven sent.

      We already have a new world order, we already have a world religion, and soon we will have to be marked in order to use the new currency after the dollar collapses. What do you not understand here? Its staring you guys in the face, but because you cannot get over your traditional vision of these events you cannot see, hence my call to get onto another branch. (Todd, my analogy had nothing to do with the branch grafted in).

      So now, “zero” is well on his way to leading the dollar to collapse….everyone would agree with this. Thus he is “destroying” the seventh Beast. The New currency on which we will base all trade will then be introduced, At which our illustrious leader will remarkably rise again as its head (UN Sec. Genereal).Thus we have a head removed and placed on another Body….HMMM.

      In me pointing to 2 thess. 2 was to give biblical credence to this. That the head will kill the seventh beast, and become the head of the eighth Beast. Clark Kent becomes Superman. President becomes Sec. General. Then the Mahdi (dragon) will give authority to him by agreeing to use his monetary system. The Only nation which will remain out of this alliance will be Israel.

      Now you can take what I have said as being foolishness, theoretical, nonsense, and Mockery, Or you can receive it as a possibility. The Latter is all I ask. The first seal already happened. we just all missed it. In the Next week, the dollar will collapse. that’s right i am making a prediction here. (This is the piece that I was missing in my theory on revelation ordering. Time to finish my “Book”)

      The 33rd day of the Omer is coming up. Kabbalists are awaiting their messiah coming on that day. The day of Jesus assencion follows this by 7 days…Rapture of the church of Philadelphia….10 days following that is Shavuot…..As in ten days for the church of Smyrna….Then the Second Horsemen will be released.

      I am sorry if this sounds like me shouting, but this is the warning call. Look at the stock market. before collapse we always have three occurences. The Bubble, Gold and silver dropping significantly, and then fear. This past month we have had two of these, and the only thing left is fear (Panic). We only need one event to set this off….tick tock. Read the following:
      http://www.examiner.com/article/fake-tweet-causes-u-s-stock-market-to-drop-briefly

      Going out on a limb like this, is hard for me. I am as rational as they come, and as skeptical. But what we have here is the perfect storm. All the events are coming together.

      The Bride is ready and waiting. The falling away complete. Those who are called are packed and ready to flee.

      God bless.
      With much Love to all I have commented with here, even the ones who I have argued with. Thanks for your patience Marianne.

      My Last comment…. This time for real…

      Isaiah 41:25

      • Gaday Dru,

        It seems that everytime we begin to debate on something, it opens up another issue

        You said:
        “Don, who is the seventh of eight by your estimation then? Nero?, cause he was the sixth. At the time john wrote, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Medo persian and Greek empires had fallen. One is, which is Rome…pretty obvious.”

        Regarding the above, why do you interpret the seven kings as Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and Medo Persia? Chapter 17 and 18 is regarding [the woman]. The angel tells John that the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits and they also represent seven kings. Since the seven heads refer to seven hills where the woman sits, that being Rome, then the seven kings or rulers must also pertain to the woman, not seven other kingdoms. To further prove my point, the verse also says that the eighth king belongs to the seven. If those seven kings were representing each of the kingdoms that you mentioned, how could that eighth king belong to each of those kingdoms?

        I have always interpreted the seven kings as a succession of kings from the same kingdom that the woman represents, that being Rome.
        Five of those Roman Kings/emporers had fallen, one is, the other Roman ruler has not yet come and the beast who once was, now is not and yet will come is an eighth king who belongs to the succession of those previous Roman rulers. As a side note, where the seven kings rule in succession, the ten horns are ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast.

        This is my take on it anyway.

      • Well, My timing was off a bit, But brace for impact…..

        http://www.foxbusiness.com/index.html

        If you have some cash, it will be worthless soon.

        Brandenberg gate “victory speech” by the Son of perdition. His view of “peace and justice” coming to fruition. The red horse will ride soon…

        Trust is key. Luke 12:22-48

        God Bless.

  44. Accepted,

    “But Don, the beast is around long before the false prophet shows up.”

    If you believe the False Prophet is the head of Mystery Babylon, then he shows up BEFORE the Antichrist. Many believe the present Pope to be the False Prophet, so if he is, he is already here.

    Who do you think he will be?

    • Hi Todd,

      Well if I believed that the false prophet was the head of Mystery Babylon, then “yes”, if he happened to be the pope, then he would be here before the beast.

      But in scripture, Mystery Babylon is a city.

      Explain this to me, “if every Prophet within the Tanakh proclaims that Jerusalem will be judged, destroyed and left desolate, (as well as Yeshua in the “Parable of the Wedding Feast” Matthew 22:7.), how come there is no mention of this happening anywhere within the book of Revelation?”

      This is not a popular concept to consider, however the amount of scripture that could verify this possibility is quite overwhelming.

      Any way’s regarding the beast, and the false prophet, read Rev. 13.
      In Rev. 13:12 it is written:

      And he exerciseth all the power of the “first beast before him”, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the “first beast”, whose deadly wound was healed.

      So above from Scripture the “false prophet” comes after the beast.
      So as I said, the beast is here long before the false prophet shows up.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaNazarei Yemelekh HaYhudim.
      Yeshua of Nazareth the KING of the Jews.

      Amen.

      • The false prophet would be the head of the woman/city, ecclesiastical Babylon. Also, not that it matters who is here first, but from where are you drawing you conclusion of the beast first being here “long before” the second beast? Scripture just does not expound on this, but I’m pretty sure that their time of being revealed will be close in proximity.

        • Don,

          Yes the proximity in regards to time will be close, the time frame where the first beast is given power by satan, (after the mortal wound to one of its heads), is only 42 months, (Revelation 13:3-5.), but first is still first.

          And “yes”, I would also agree that the false prophet will more than likely be ruling from a city. Probably the same city where the “abomination of desolation and the image will be set up in” too.

          You have your theory and I have mine.
          Both as of yet are just that.

          Be Blessed in Yeshua our Lord of Grace.
          Amen.

    • Hi Todd and all,

      In answer to your question,

      * The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits.
      * The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth

      Of course both of these alone point to Rome/Vatican, for Rome was well known for being built on seven hills and the city that ruled over the then known world at the time John received this information from the angel was, wait for it ….. Rome. The woman represents both ecclesiastical and political Rome. One only has to do a cursory study of the beliefs of Roman Catholicism (RC) to see that much of it has been carried over from the Babylon mystery religions such as,

      The Eucharist: Mythraism, which was the eating of the blood of ones god, which was practiced largly by Roman soldiers. Sound familiar? RC believes that when an individual partakes of the Eucharist, he is eating the literal body and blood of the Lord Jesus, called transubstantianion. And according to RC’s dogma, anyone who says that it is just a symbolic representation, that is, the bread is symbolic for his body and the drink is symbolic for his blood, then they say, let that person be an athema (cursed).

      Mother and son worship: Isis and Horus, Simiramis and Tamuz, now carried over to Mary and Jesus.

      Worship of saints: When Constantine declared Christianity as the official religion of Rome, the pantheon of gods that were worshiped were carried and renamed to the saints.

      Queen of Heaven: Ishtar and Ashtoreth/Astarte, now carried over to Mary the mother of Jesus. There are many other comparisons, but you get the gist of what I am saying here. RC exhibits the characteristics of Babylon, ergo, Mystery Babylon. As a side note, if the real city of Babylon was being spoken of, then it would not be a Mystery. The mystery is that, Babylon with all of her pagan rites and rituals and can be found within the RC.

      Now, I said all that to say this, RC has over 1.2 billion members, who, regardless of the level of devoutness, they look upon the pope as the vicar of Christ, which means they believe he stands in the place of the Messiah and possesses his authority on earth, even Islam recognizes and respects his position. Now tell me, if they recognize him in this so-called position of authority and infalliblility (ex-cathedra), what do you think is going to happen when one of the popes begins to perform those miracles, signs and wonders, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of men? Anyone who was devout or semi devout will become completely devout, that is, except for those whom God is calling out. Not only that, but all of the so-called Christian sects such as Mormonism, Jehovah’s witness, etc, will be drawn into this false religious system because of those counterfeit signs. By the pope playing the part of the false prophet, it will put all of those devout followers and the rest of the inhabitants of the earth in the beast’s hip pocket and that because their beloved leader will be supporting him and giving credibilty to him by performing those miracles, signs and wonders. Now add on to that the cash, checks, credit and debit being made obsolete and the his mark being the only means of buying and selling and you will have a whole lot of people ready to receive his mark and to worship him.

      In Scripture, the beast who comes up out of the sea is mentioned first, then the second beast (False prophet) is introduced next, both in chapter 13. If it is the pope, then it could be the present pope or a future pope, but as far as who is here first is not an issue. I believe that they are both currently on the earth and will be revealed in God’s timing.

      Yours in Christ

  45. Don,
    I was responding to Accepted about his comment that the Antichrist will be here long before the False Prophet and was also saying that nowhere in scripture does it even hint at this. (And I agree that it really isn’t that important anyway).
    As for Mystery Babylon, I was just asking Accepted what he believed it was, because his post seemed contradictory. I couldn’t tell what point he was making. He seemed to say Roman Catholicism wasn’t Babylon, and then went on the say, or seemed to say Jerusalem wasn’t either because it isn’t mentioned in Revelation even though all the prophets mention it.

    I agree with you in that Roman Catholicism is PARTIALLY Mystery Babylon. I believe Rome will be its center, but through the ecumenical movement will unite ALL religions into one Mystery Babylon, a world religion.

    • Yeah, I know you were responding to him, but Just kinda jumped in as I always do. Regarding the woman, as you know, she is described as being dressed in purple and scarlet, precious stones and glittering with gold. Whenever there is something on cable regarding the Vatican I watch it, because I am amazed at how completely she fits the bill, for the main colors worn by the bishops, cardinals and priest are those very colors. In regards to her glittering with gold, most everything in the Vatican is trimmed with it. Even without the miracles, signs and wonders that one of her popes will perform, people are already deceived. How can 1.2 billion people not notice an 82ft obelisk from 19 century BC Egypt that was used for sun worship sitting out on their front porch? What blashemy! And this is supposed to be the church of Christ? Not to mention that, the best that an RC can hope for when they die is to first go to Purgatory to be purged in the flames for any sins that were not atoned for. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ that he died once and for all making complete atonement for us, no sacraments (works) required!

      • Don,
        That’s ok. You can jump in any time. I wasn’t sure if you knew who is was responding to. It’s hard for me to follow sometimes because there are several different conversations going on at the same time.
        Do you agree that the ecumenical movement will unite all religions under Rome?
        I think the most blasphemous thing is Mary worship. I believe that the appearances of the demon who calls itself “Our Lady” will have a lot to do with uniting all religions, especially those who worship the “mother goddess.”

        • Toddott,

          Without influencing your answer, tell me, what is your take on the 144,000? What is your understanding of who they are and how many?

    • Hi Todd,

      Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn’t contradicting myself at all.
      First, Scripture does give us a time frame and a sequence of events regarding the beast and false prophet, as I quoted from Revelation 13 above.

      Secondly what you perceived as being a contradiction, was merely a plain and simple question;

      “Explain this to me, “if every Prophet within the Tanakh proclaims that Jerusalem will be judged, destroyed and left desolate, (as well as Yeshua in the “Parable of the Wedding Feast” Matthew 22:7.), how come there is no mention of this happening anywhere within the book of Revelation?””

      You yourself state above, “Jerusalem wasn’t either because it isn’t mentioned in Revelation even though all the prophets mention it.”

      Don’t you find that rather odd?
      That Jerusalem isn’t mentioned by name once within the entire book?
      It is mentioned a total of 811 times in 764 verses throughout Scripture yet not mentioned once by name in the entire book of Revelation, other than in its reference to that of “the New Jerusalem” in Rev. 3:12., 21:2., and 21:10.?

      Though it is referred to in Revelation 11:8., as that “great city” where our Lord was crucified, don’t you find the very fact that it is not mentioned once as an earthy city by name rather mysterious?
      “Yes”, each and every prophet refers to its coming judgement and as it being the mother of all Harlots, but the city itself is not mentioned once within Revelation?

      We know that the antichrist will set up the abomination of desolation there. So we know that Jerusalem will be the epicenter and place of origin when this all begins.
      We know that both Moses and Elijah, (With God granting them both the powers to do what they had performed in the past. With Moses in being able to turn water into blood and bring plague’s, and Elijah being able to shut the heavens and cause it not to rain), will be killed in Jerusalem. But why is it referred to as both “Sodom and Egypt”?

      Something to consider. Perhaps it is mentioned after all, but like Revelation 11:8., it is just called something else?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Lord of Grace, Glory and Righteousness.

      Amen.

      • Hey Accepted,

        If I may again jump in. In regards to:

        ” “if every Prophet within the Tanakh proclaims that Jerusalem will be judged, destroyed and left desolate, (as well as Yeshua in the “Parable of the Wedding Feast” Matthew 22:7.), how come there is no mention of this happening anywhere within the book of Revelation?””

        Revelation does mention Jerusalem being left desolate:

        “The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

        “When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.”

        The above Scripture in Revelation is synonymous with the desolation of Jerusalem which is caused by the abomination being set up as described in Mt.24:15?

        “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.”

        Notice that Jesus refers to it as a time of great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now and never to be equaled again. It is also demonstrated when he says, “How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers in Israel who will have to flee. Since the woman of Revelation 12 is synonymous with Israel fleeing in Mt.24:15, everything that is said there applies to Revelation as well.

        • Hi Don,

          Well I believe that Jerusalem will be left desolate, simply because every prophet states that it will be judged and left desolate, but you are not going deep enough within your thought process. But you and I have discussed this particular topic before and have agreed to disagree, so that is why I proposed the question to Todd.

          By the way, it is my opinion that Revelation 12:13-16., that you quoted above, is not referring to that of the city of Jerusalem, but rather the people that are fleeing as described by Yeshua in Matthew 24:15-22.

          Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious Savior.
          Amen.

          • Hey,

            According to Scripture, the woman clothed with sun and the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is idenified as the nation Israel as revealed in Gen.37:9-10. Since Mt.24:15 states that the abomination will be set up in the Holy Place within the temple, this would be in Jerusalem. Not only that, but Luke’s version of Mt.24:15-22 says the following:

            “When you see [Jerusalem] being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those [in the city get] out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

            So, with all due respect, I believe that I have thought it through. Jesus himself says, when you see [Jerusalem] surrounded by armies, flee into the desert. The people who are fleeing in Rev.12:13-16 are synonymous with those people describe in Mt.24:15 being the same event, which would be referring to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas.

            Since the abomination and the temple have to do with Jerusalem, as well as the armies surrounding Jersalem, how is it that you don’t believe that it is the people of Jersalem are ones who are fleeing?

            • Don,
              So with all due respect are you trying to tell me that the “city” of Jerusalem “flees”, rather than the “inhabitants of the city”?

              Of course you’re not.

              But you are not understanding what it is that I am asking.

              You agree that all of the Prophets speak of Gods judgement for the city of Jerusalem. Correct?

              You also agree that even Yeshua states that the city will be destroyed as well. Correct?

              We know that a massive earthquake will occur after the Two Witness are killed and then “caught up” where a tenth of Jerusalem will be destroyed and 7000 will die. (Revelation 11:13.)

              But is that it?
              Is that the total fulfillment of Gods judgement?

              And if it isn’t, where is this total destruction recorded within the book of Revelation?

              You know what I am saying because you and I have already discussed this and as I said above, we have agreed to disagree.

              However with my questions I am attempting to have some people go outside of their 9 dots of preconceived ideology.

              I already know where you stand regarding this possibility.

              Thanks for your input though.

              Be Blessed in Yeshua our KING of kings.
              Amen.

  46. Yes, I do believe that all religons will unite under the RC. The ability to perform miracles, signs and wonders (whatever those will be) will be a powerful and deceiving tool to those who are unfamiliar with the truth of God’s word. Even now, we are seeing the so-called main-line churches embracing RC as being the church of Christ. As I always say, Roman Catholicism is the biggest lie and deception and is hiding right out in plain site. No Berean’s there!

    For sure Mary was a blessed woman used to bring the Lord into the world, but yes, the worship of her as queen of heaven, co-redeemer, co-savior, pertetual virgin, assumed up into heaven (resurrected), Mother of God, full of grace, etc, etc is a major deviation from the truth. There is something that I always use to prove that Mary is none of what RC claims of her, which can be found in the following:

    “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.”

    Now, if Mary was all that RC says that she is, when the angel called out in a loud voice asking who was worthy to open the scroll, then Mary should have been able to take it and open the seals, but of course we do not see this, for as it states, no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth (Hades) was able to open the scroll or look inside. It is only Jesus who is worthy to open the scroll and that because he was slain and with his blood he purchased men for God.

    I suppose the biggest deviation with RC is that, they don’t believe that Jesus paid for sin once and for all. They claim that they do in that, a persons orignal sin and personal sins up to the point of baptism are covered, but any sins after baptism must be dealt with through the sacraments via priests, that is, the priest are meteing out God’s grace and those sins are remitted by perfoming the sacraments, which are basically works. Then you get into how the breaking of bread and drinking from the cup morphed into eating the literal flesh of the Lord and drinking his literal blood. When Jesus said, “Unless a man eat my flesh and drink my blood” he was speaking figuratively, otherwise Jesus also said that he was the bread that came down from heaven, so was he literally a loaf of bread too? He also said that he was the sheep gate. Anyhow, now, according to RC, Jesus is brought down thousands of times per day in a continuing sacrifice where his flesh is eaten and his blood is drank, yet Scripture states that his sacrifice was once and for all, never to be repeated again. This is confirmed when he said, “Father I have finished the work that you sent me to do” and when he was on the cross and he said, “It is finished!”

  47. Dru,

    “What do you not understand here? Its staring you guys in the face, but because you cannot get over your traditional vision of these events you cannot see, hence my call to get onto another branch.”

    Well, here’s the whole problem with your post about the branch (and many of your other posts). You tell us that you are trying to lead us to another branch, but you NEVER told us what it is we are supposed to see from that other branch. Were we supposed to read your mind? How are we are supposed to discern the entirety of your last post based on the following?
    “I am making a subtle point here that the man of lawlessness, need not look like the Lawless one. Kind of like Clark Kent and Superman. The seventh and the eight mountain are the same thing, yet look different. The seventh is revealed, and replaced by the eighth. The eighth is revealed at the second coming. See rev. 17.”
    and
    “Here is a comment I often get. If BHO is the AC, then there is no way Israel will see him as their messiah. But if we Look at history, the Antichrist spirit has been found in egyptian pharohs, Babylonian kings, Roman Ceasers, Popes, and presidents. Who is to say the nextone wil not look more messianic, and even kill the One who is revealed first. Remember, we are talking about demonically possessed leaders here.”

    Yes it was a subtle point. It was so subtle that I (and I’m sure not many others either) had no idea what point you were making. If you want to make a point just come out and say it. Don’t beat around the bush and keep us guessing.

    And my comment about the branch grafted in had NOTHING to do with your analogy either (Actually, you didn’t have an analogy. An analogy is a process of transferring the meaning of one source subject to another target subject. You never told us what the target subject was.) My comment was part of a joke, which obviously you didn’t get, presumably because of your defensiveness (which is obvious from the”tone” of our post).

    Your theory is also one I’ve considered and have not entirely ruled out – that the Beast is the U.S. – Ex-Christian Nation, New York City, United Nations, Wall Street, etc. I am watching from this branch also, but I don’t think it’s “staring me in the face yet.”

    But I have questions. Short answers please. Just “yes” and “no” if possible.

    The eighth Beast is “of the seven” (“hepta”), not “of the seventh” (hebdomos). How is Obama “of” the previous seven Empires?

    “When he comes he will remain for a short space.” What does the collapse of the Soviet Union and its switching to the dollar have to do with the U.S. “remaining for a short space?” Are you saying the U.S. didn’t “come” until 1990 and that the previous 214 years didn’t count because the U.S. didn’t as yet rule over a world economy? Remember, we still don’t. The EU uses the Euro.

    Who is the King, the “he” that has continued since 1990?

    So the Mahdi of Islam will give his power and authority to Obama as the Secretary General of the U.N.? Doesn’t that imply that the Mahdi will have more power and authority than the Secretary General? (Giving someone power means you have more power than the one you are giving it to.) The Dragon is Satan. Satan gives the Beast his power. The Beast gives the False Prophet his.

    The First Seal is the rise of Obama?

    Who is the False Prophet?

    “In the Next week, the dollar will collapse.” By “week” do you mean the next seven years, or seven days?

    (This is the piece that I was missing in my theory on revelation ordering. Time to finish my “Book”) What “book” are you referring to?

    So the Rapture is going to be this May ?

  48. Getting rid of the fantasies and myth’s – Sun,Moon,Stars- BY THE WORD
    The Sun and Moon are symbolically imagery in many, many places in the Bible
    They are symbols – Like Parables that Jesus said and the People could not figure it out then. It’s the same today. If this little study does not open you eyes Then God help you.

    JOB 25:5 Behold even to the MOON, and it SHINETH not; yea, the STARS are not pure in his sight.
    Stars defined = 3556 of Messiah, brothers, youth, numerous progeny, personification, God’s omniscience (figurative) = Spiritually, Symbolic, Imagery
    #1
    GEN. 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and TOLD IT TO HIS BRETHREN and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, THE SUN AND THE MOON and the ELEVEN STARS made OBEISANCE TO ME .
    Eleven Stars 3556 3522 ) or 3554 in the sense of blazing; 1. star
    1a) of Messiah, brothers, youth, numerous progeny, personification, God’s omniscience (figurative) = Spiritually, Symbolic, Imagery

    GEN. 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
    A. Sheave’s as brothers and men. Spiritual, Symbolic, Imagery of brother and mankind

    GEN. 37:8 And HIS BRETHREN said to him, SHALT THOU INDEED REIGN OVER US ? or shalt thou indeed have DOMINION OVER US ? And they HATED HIM yet the more for his dreams, AND FOR HIS WORDS .
    A. Spiritual Men are always hated in the Bible because they speak LIGHT to the people.

    #2
    DEUT. 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the SUN, and the MOON, and the STARS, even all the ‘HOST of Heaven”, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all NATIONS under the whole heaven.

    Host – 6635 that which goes forth, army, war, warfare, host
    2. of organised army — 3. host (of angels) 4. of sun, moon, and stars– 5. of whole creation – Millions on earth worship the above. Armies are men, Angels are men on earth. Beware you do not entertain them unaware.
    3. Daniel calls Nations beast – it’s the worship of man, power, greed, lust, economies.

    #3.
    When Men and Nations become evil – this is what God says about them.
    ISA 3:10 For the STARS OF THE HEAVEN and the constellations thereof SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT : the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN ITS GOING FORTH , and the MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE
    WHY — READ THIS NEXT VERSE
    ISA13:11- And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogances of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    ISA 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
    A. The People’s hearts have waxed cold, no warmth of love in them Just evil, hate, blindness. Evil cannot shine forth truth, and freedom. They are under a CURSE and have fell into the Pit of no return. When the Moon and Sun and Stars do not shine it is JUDGEMENT TIME> A great Day of Light for the Saved in Christ – a Great day of Darkness for the Lost and Evil.

    #4. The people mourn when Evil Rule’s – Sun, stars, Moon turn
    Now here is an opposite
    ISA 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be SEVENFOLD , as the light of SEVEN DAYS , in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and HEALETH THE STROKE OF THEIR WOUND.
    A. The 7 days , sevenfold – is the Creation of the Bride in N.T. and O.T 7 Ages, 7 churchs, 7 spirits of God, 7 trumpets, Vials, Plagues , Seals on and on.
    B. The Death, Burial, Resurrection Raised up another Creation of God Through Christ. The Sun is Shining on His People. Curse lifted = Raptured from all Babylon systems of Men, Nations, organization etc. etc.
    C. Rev. 18:4 come out of her my people and be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her Plagues.

    Acts. 2:19-20 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
    A. Blood – blood shed, to be shed by violence, slay, murder
    B. Fire – to purify with. Scorched earth – sanctify with
    C. Vapour of Smoke -the atmospheric region – Men vaporizing into the air – Their Spirits
    D. When a person dies their BODY vaporizes because most of your body is Water. It turns into clouds. Or smoke and vanishes. Your soul man goes back to God –
    Rev.17:15 people called Waters –
    20. “THE SUN” shall be TURNED INTO DARKNESS, and the MOON TO BLOOD, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:= LORD COMING IN JUDGMENT
    A. The Lord comes in 2 Phases – First Grace — then — Judgment – Grace takes you out of the judgment because of your election. You are protected from Death. And are Eternal

    IN THE APOSTLES DAY
    1. Jesus came first to die and have mercy upon the world and forgive. Pentecost 33A.D
    2. The Judgment happened 37 years later around AD 67-70 – 1 million, 100 thousand died on the Temple mount lost – Jerusalem destroyed as well. For rejecting Christ and Pentecost. Receiving the Holy Spirit – The Complete Fullness of conversion.
    3. Them were indeed very DARK DAYS for Israel. The Sun, Moon, and Stars fell. =
    4. Yet is was – full of Glory and joy unspeakable for them that excepted Christ.

    1. Sun causes things to LIVE and RISE – and be fruitful
    2. Darkness causes Death, Hell, and Grave

    “THE RAYS OF THE SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS”— Mal. 4:2-3
    MAL. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the “SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISE WITH “HEALING IN HIS WINGS” and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    MAL. 4:3 And YE shall TREAD DOWN THE WICKED ; for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

    #5.
    Pentecost fulfilled Joel prophecies. And Yes It will be fulfilled again in our day.
    Many Scriptures have compound meanings

    JOEL 2:10-14 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN and THE MOON shall be dark, and THE STARS shall WITHDRAW THEIR SHINING:
    11. And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Next scriptures below tell us why the sun and moon is dark, along with the stars
    12. ¶ Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
    13. And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
    14. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
    15. BLOW YE THE TRUMPET IN ZION , sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
    A. It’s the Trumpets that bring back Jesus Christ in our age just as it did in Apostles age.
    B. At the LAST TRUMP The Son of Man comes in Rev.10:7 —Rev.11:15-17 —
    Rev. 16:15-17 – Rev. 22:9-11 All the 7th. Angel.
    C. As John the Baptist was the “Last Trumpet” for Heralding in Jesus Christ.
    D. So is the 7th. Angel in our day – that Heralded in Christ again in Rev. 10:7
    E. I will have a teaching on this very soon. As I have been working on it.

    #6. Check out the cycle’s here – Sun, Moon, Stars etc.
    REV. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and THE SUN became black= DARKENED as SACKCLOTH OF HAIR , and THE MOON BECAME BLOOD ;
    a. To you literalist believers – if the sun has to turn black or darkened – is it gonna be by sackcloth of hair to cause it to turn that way. “ pretty stupid interpretation amen“.
    b. I could do this all day long in the book of revelation but don’t want to waste my time.
    Rev. 6:13 And THE STARS of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a MIGHTY WIND. (Denotes the great last war).
    Rev. 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; (The rich and great of Babylon falling)
    REV. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from THE WRATH of the Lamb:

    Another cycle – Sun, Moon, Stars – same thing
    REV. 8:12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of THE SUN was smitten, and the third part of THE MOON , and the third part of THE STARS; so as the third part of them was DARKENED, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
    REV 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, WOE, WOE, WOE to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other VOICES OF THE OTHER TRUMPETS of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    Chapter 12 yet another cycle – Sun, moon, stars and wrath. How many times is this going to happen. If you read it in the literal sense – be honest with yourself.
    REV. 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with THE SUN , and THE MOON under her feet, and upon her head a crown of TWELVE STARS:
    QUESTION – IS THIS LITERAL AS WELL AS THE OTHERS. THE WOMAN IS ACTUALLY WEARING THE SUN, AND THE MOON UNDER HER FEET , AND A CROWN WITH TWELVE STARS.
    REV 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
    REV.12:12 ¶ Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. WOE to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, HAVING GREAT WRATH , because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    REV21:23 And the city had NO NEED OF THE SUN, NEITHER OF THE MOON , to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
    a. When did the Lamb start this city – The Kingdom – that supplies all your needs – told to us by Jesus Christ Himself in Matt.6:10 & 6:33 and is the big, big question. Jesus says to FIRST seek ye the “Kingdom of God” Well most of you all do not believe that literally. Its out in the future somewhere. How long we have to wait to be a citizen of the Kingdom. Another troubling point is – Jesus also said HE would supply all our needs in this Kingdom. I guess is still out in the future as well. He said in Matt. 6:30 said he would cloth us, Feed us, supply all of our needs. Receiving him I cannot die but once. And I have already done that on my Cross that He gave me. Luke 9 that we all die on. Like Paul did. It think I will walk in the “City of Light that is set on a Hill NOW” like the scripture says. I’m a beacon, I’m a little Jesus, I have the same Holy Ghost in me that was in HIM. Its called a celestial man – the Spiritual man. I keep killing that Natural man daily – Cannot listen to him and Overcome nothing. And we all are called to Overcome. Get the Victory over our life’s mountains.

    REV 21:24 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
    a. Most all of earthly nations have had their revivals at one time or another since Christ.
    b. And they all in apostasy as I write this.
    c. But Jesus also called me a King and Priest – heir with Him. While Im living here.

    REV.21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    a. The Lamb is the Eternal light of all the World and Nations for last 2,000 years now.
    b. Denominations still begging money and building themselves empires to save the lost world yet preaching and teaching a Rapture message.
    c. If this is like Noah’s day its not going to happen. Remember in Noah’s day they had Sons of God chasing daughters of men as well. They was so beautiful – Like our great church’s today – they think they got it all and have a right to it. But as Noah’s day was overtaken with lust, fighting, money, Marriage, adultery, – Today you would have to change Pauls writing to be a pastor must be the husband of one husband – wife of one wife. That is how bad it is.

    REV.21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
    a. Any nation that has Born again believers in it. Will bring it Glory and honor.

    REV. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the
    Lamb’s book of life.
    a. Rev. 22:15 Blessed are they that do His commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates of the city – not millennium, or 1,000 yrs. Or any time period. Because the City is Eternal
    b. For without our dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolators, and those that maketh a lie — THEE LIE – they do not have no faith in GOD – The lie and say their Idol is a god, they murder and say it had to be done, they commit whoredom’s and make excuses for it – they are sorcerers = magical remedies, sorceries, drugs, etc.

    Lord bless you all — In the Name of Jesus —- And I do love you all. My words might seem a bit harsh. But my heart is for you. That is why I took so long to write this.

  49. Tom,

    We “literalist” understand the imagery. If fact, we understand that entire Bible is a Parable.

    YOU SAY:
    When Men and Nations become evil – this is what God says about them.
    ISA 3:10 For the STARS OF THE HEAVEN and the constellations thereof SHALL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT : the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED IN ITS GOING FORTH , and the MOON SHALL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE
    WHY — READ THIS NEXT VERSE
    ISA13:11- And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogances of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    I SAY:
    You are WRONG. Isaiah 13:10 is NOT speaking of “Men and Nations,” it is speaking of the Church.

    STARS
    The stars of heaven symbolize believers. Abrahams natural descendant are spoken of as sand of the sea. Abrahams spiritual descendants are spoken of as stars in the sky. Philippians 2:15.

    LIGHT
    Jesus, the WORD OF GOD, is the True Light that has come into the world. As believers in Jesus, we reflect that Light to the world. ( John )

    SUN
    The sun symbolizes Jesus, the Word, who shines forth His righteousness. (Malachi 4)

    MOON
    The Moon symbolizes the Law. The Law of God is a reflection of His righteousness. Believers reflect the LIGHT ( the Word of God) and SUN (the righteousness of God ) onto a DARK ( sinful, lawless ) world.

    DARKNESS
    Darkness symbolizes sin and evil, lawlessness.

    THE STARS WILL NOT GIVE THEIR LIGHT
    The Light of believers will not shine forth. In other words, the Gospel will not be available.

    “The days are coming,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
    “when I will send a famine through the land—
    not a famine of food or a thirst for water,
    but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord.
    People will stagger from sea to sea
    and wander from north to east,
    searching for the word of the Lord,
    but they will not find it. (Amos 8)

    THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED
    God’s righteousness will not shine forth. Evil will reign on earth.

    THE MOON WILL NOT CAUSE HER LIGHT TO SHINE
    A time of sin and lawlessness will reign on earth. It will be a time of UTTER darkness.

    What doe this mean?

    The only Feast of the Lord that occurs on a New Moon (when the moon doesn’t give its light), is the Feast of Trumpets. The Gathering together of the Saints happens at the Last Trump on the Feast of Trumpets. When the Church is Raptured, the STARS will no longer give their light to the earth, the SUN will no longer be seen, and the MOON will no longer reflect the SUN.

    It will be a time of UTTER darkness, a time of Tribulation.

    Isaiah 3:11, however IS talking about “Men and Nations.
    During the Tribulation God will punish the world for it’s evil:

    And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogances of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

    MIDNIGHT is a symbol of the Tribulation. Jesus will return during the “night.”

    “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father…“Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back—whether in the evening, or at MIDNIGHT, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn. If he comes suddenly, do not let him find you sleeping. What I say to you, I say to everyone: ‘Watch!’” (Mark 13)

    “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
    “At MIDNIGHT the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
    “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’ (Matthew 25).

    WISE VIRGINS
    Symbolize the Church, the Bride of Christ. Our Husband will return for us and snatch us away like a thief in the NIGHT.

    FOOLISH VIRGINS
    Symbolize the false Church, the Harlot Mystery Babylon, who have no oil, and therefore miss the Gathering of the saints. They are left to endure the Tribulation.

    I could go on and on with these illustrations.

    What Preterists don’t understand is that, yes Revelation is a Parable, but as in every one of Jesus’ Parables, the symbols represent literal persons, places, things and events.

    Stars represent literal flesh and blood believers.
    The Beast is a symbol, but also something real and literal.
    Babylon is a symbol, but also something real and literal.
    The harvest of grapes is a symbol, but also something real and literal.

    God and His Word (Living AND Written) are much, much, much bigger and more glorious than the Preterists give them credit for.

    Yes, Jesus came in a spiritual sense at His first coming on Pentecost (NOT 70A.D.), but we believe He will also come in a LITERAL sense at His Second Coming.
    The Kingdom of God is NOW and is advancing forth, but it’s completion will result in a literal Kingdom. When the last living stone is place in the Temple, that Temple will descend from Heaven (where we are now seating according to Ephesians) and the Capstone, Jesus Himself will be brought out to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it !'” (Zechariah 4)

    ….

    Faithless ISRAEL was judged and punished for rejecting the Messiah at His First Coming. The WORLD has been judged and will be punished for rejecting the Messiah at His Second Coming.

    The True Church, the Bride of Christ will not be judged, because NOW is the time of judgement for the Church. We were already judge guilty at the Cross, the same place that guilt is washed away.

    The False Church, the Harlot, will be judged during the Tribulation. Because the Word of God will be absent, a “powerful delusion” perpetrated by the Man of Sin who “throws truth to the ground,” many will fall. But those who “come out of her (Babylon), will be saved.

    Prophecy is not about prediction and fulfillment. It is about patterns. God uses literal events in history to teach us of future events. There are multiple partial fulfillments of this pattern and a final complete fulfillment.

    The entire history of Israel is a parable, a type that represents two things, the True Church (spiritual descendants of Abraham – which include individuals from natural Israel who have Abraham’s faith) AND the False Church (those who seek to be justified by the works of the Law, rather than by faith in Christ).

    “These things happened to them as examples (types, parables) and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come” (I Corinthians 10).

    The judgement on Israel is 70 A.D. was a type and shadow of a greater judgement on the world at His Second Coming.

    So, the explanation above was referring to the COMPLETE, FINAL fulfillment. The shadow, or partial fulfillment DID happen in 70 A.D.

    Israel became a Harlot and no longer reflected God’s light and righteousness. The Law ceased to shine when the Temple was destroyed. Israel was punished, but was never destroyed completely. Se was sent into exile. Jesus called 70 A.D. a “time of vengeance” in fulfillment of the writings of the prophets. And Israel is responsible for all the blood of the righteous, from Abel to Zechariah.

    At the End, the Harlot Mystery Babylon will be destroyed COMPLETELY and she will be responsible for not ONLY for the blood of the righteous, but for ALL who “have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    I went to a weeklong seminar which taught and have studied how the events of Revelation were fulfilled in the first century. Few “literalist” would deny this. But many also believe that there is a future and more complete fulfillment, because of the multitudes of prophecies that were NOT fulfilled in 70 A.D.

    “This generation will not pass away…”
    Generation: “genea”
    a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    What this verse is teaching is that NATURAL Israel will not pass away until all of Jesus’ prophecies have been completed. The “several ranks of natural descent, the successive members” of Israel have NOT yet passed away, therefore ALL of these things have NOT yet been fulfilled.

    • Hi Toddott,

      You said:
      “You are WRONG. Isaiah 13:10 is NOT speaking of “Men and Nations,” it is speaking of the Church.”
      First of all, Isaiah 13:10 is regarding the Day of the Lord, which when he pours out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the entire earth, as is clearly stated,

      “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins.”

      During the Day of the Lord (the wrath of God), the Church will have already been removed at this point. Also, I am curious as to why you would apply symbolism to the event of the sun, moon and stars being darkened opposed to this literally taking place, that is, that the sun, moon and stars will literally be darkened.

      You said:
      “We “Literalist” understand the imagery. In fact, we understand that the entire bible is a parable.”

      I completely disagree with you there, as the word of God is not all a parable. The Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless there is a need for applying symbolism. There is a saying,

      “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.”

      In regards to the sun, moon and stars being darkened, since all of the Scriptures found in Isaiah, Joel, Matthew, Mark and Revelation are all consistent with them being darkened, why would you interpret it as figurative?

      The “Stars” in Revelation represent several different things, including literal stars.

      1:20 – Symbolic – The seven stars are seven angels (represents angels, that is, overseers)

      6:13 – Literal – And the stars in the sky fell to the earth (Meteorites/Asteriods)

      8:10 – Symbolic – And a great star blazing like a torch (causing the waters to turn poisonous)

      8:12 – Literal – A third of the sun, moon and stars darkened by a third.

      9:1 – Symbolic – I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth (An angel opens the Abyss)

      12:1 – Symbolic – The woman wearing a crown of twelve stars (twelve tribes of Israel)

      So you see, not everything is a symbolic nor is everything literal. It depends on the context and if there is anything in Scripture that would support a symbolic interpretation. That being said, there is no reason for us to not believe that sun, moon and stars are not going to be literally darkened.

  50. Tom,
    p.s.

    “I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

    Again, the SUN represents Jesus, the MOON represents the Law, the STARS represent Israel, both natural and spiritual.

    EARTHQUAKE/SHAKING
    Symbolizes God’s power.

    See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.” The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
    Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our “God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12)

    MOUNTAIN and ISLAND
    Mountains symbolize Kingdoms. The SEA symbolizes Gentile Nations. Islands symbolize less governments which are surrounded by Gentile nations?

    POWERS
    Powers symbolize rulers and kingdoms (“Horns”) and the spiritual entities that rule over them (“Prince of Persia,” “Prince of Grecia.” -Daniel, Ephesians 6)

    HEAVENS
    Spiritual Kingdom

    At the Sixth Seal:
    GOD WILL SHAKE THE HEAVENS AND EARTH
    God’s wrath will be unleashed on the world and God will cause chaos and unrest, earthly kingdoms as well as their earthly and spiritual rulers will be thrown into turmoil.

    “Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back…” (Revelation 12)

    Events that occur in the heavens are reflected in events that occur on earth.

    “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

    EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WILL BE REMOVED FROM ITS PLACE
    Kingdoms will be destroyed and disappear and God’s Kingdom will be established.

    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.” (Revelation)

    “While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The WIND swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.” (Daniel)

    WIND
    Symbolizes war. God’s kingdom will be established by the rider on the white horse (Jesus) who judges and makes war. (Revelation 19)

    THE SUN TURNED BLACK LIKE SACKCLOTH
    God’s righteousness and mercy will be replaced by His anger and wrath.

    THE MOON WILL BE TURNED BLOOD RED
    There will be lawlessness which will result in bloodshed and death.

    FIG TREE
    Symbolizes Israel.

    FIGS
    Symbolize the fruit of the Law for natural Israel, the fruit of the Spirit for spiritual Israel

    STRONG WIND
    War between nations. War on the saints.

    “Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make people kill each other.”

    “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

    THE STARS FELL TO THE EARTH
    The war on the saint will result in many believers being killed.

    FIGS DROP FROM FIG TREE
    There will be little fruit of righteousness produced, because of the “falling away” or “apostasy.”

    “Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold.” (Matthew 24)

    HEAVENS RECEDING LIKE A SCROLL
    God’s spiritual Kingdom will recede from the earth like a scroll being rolled up during the Rapture of the Church.

  51. Don,

    1)
    YOU SAID:
    You said:
    “You are WRONG. Isaiah 13:10 is NOT speaking of “Men and Nations,” it is speaking of the Church.”
    First of all, Isaiah 13:10 is regarding the Day of the Lord, which when he pours out his wrath upon the inhabitants of the entire earth, as is clearly stated,

    “I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins.”

    During the Day of the Lord (the wrath of God), the Church will have already been removed at this point. Also, I am curious as to why you would apply symbolism to the event of the sun, moon and stars being darkened opposed to this literally taking place, that is, that the sun, moon and stars will literally be darkened.

    I SAY:
    Yes, I agree with you. This post was a response to Tom who is a Preterist. He was saying the Sun, Moon and Stars represented the world.
    I was just saying that the Sun, Moon and Stars don’t represent the world, the represent Jesus, the Law and the Church.

    In other words, the Sun, Moon and Star will be darkened means the Church will be gone and its light will no longer shine on the earth during the time that the Lord pours out His wrath on the earth.

    Isaiah 13:10 represents the Rapture
    Isaiah 13:11 represents the wrath of God poured out after the Rapture.

    These two events are fulfilled in Revelation:

    The Rapture of the Church:
    And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    The wrath of God on the earth:
    And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    2)
    YOU SAID:
    I am curious as to why you would apply symbolism to the event of the sun, moon and stars being darkened opposed to this literally taking place, that is, that the sun, moon and stars will literally be darkened.
    I SAY:
    I also said that I believe events in the natural realm parallel events in the spiritual realm. The darkening of the sun, moon and stars WILL be a literal event that parallels a spiritual event, the Rapture. The natural sun, moon and stars will cease to shine on the earth AND the spiritual Sun, Moon and Stars will cease to shine on the earth (because they will have been Raptured and will be in Heaven). They BOTH happen.

    3) YOU SAID:
    You said:
    “We “Literalist” understand the imagery. In fact, we understand that the entire bible is a parable.”
    I completely disagree with you there, as the word of God is not all a parable. The Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless there is a need for applying symbolism. There is a saying…

    I SAY: I agree to a certain extent. Yes the Word of God is a Parable. The events that happened to natural Israel are events that happen to spiritual Israel. The Exodus is an example. Natural Israel was in bondage, was redeemed at Passover, was baptized in the Red Sea, wandered in to wilderness of the world until crossing the Jordan into the promised land. These same events have and will happen to the Church.
    Adam and Eve are another example. They are two LITERAL people who symbolize a SPIRITUAL people Christ and the Church. Now, would it make sense to say that the Bride of Christ is ONE single literal person. Of course not, the story of Adam and Eve is a parable about Christ and the Church and it is not fulfilled literally. (The Church is not a SINGLE woman like Eve was.)
    Adam and Eve were the first people in the old natural creation; Christ and the Church are the first people in the New (spiritual ) Creation.

    Yes, when literal sense makes sense, we should accept that literal sense, but sometimes the literal sense is NOT the ONLY sense. There can also be a spiritual symbolic sense.

    Another example: the Beast is a literal person who sets himself up it the Temple of God proclaiming self to be God. This is literal. But there is also a symbolic, spiritual lesson to be learned from this. The Beast (the flesh, the carnal nature) sets itself up in the Temple of God (our bodies), declaring itself God. The Beast (our carnal nature) is at war with our Spirit, are wars against it. However Paul tells us we are not to let the sinful nature rule in our mortal bodies. We are to kill the “beast.” The problem is, we are not able to, therefore, Jesus has to do it for us, just as He will kill the literal Beast Antichrist for us.
    So while the events in Revelation are literal events, they are also parables that teach us spiritual truth.

    Don’t put God in a box. The riches of God’s Word are unsearchable. They have multiple layers of meaning all at the same time.

    3)
    YOU SAID:
    In regards to the sun, moon and stars being darkened, since all of the Scriptures found in Isaiah, Joel, Matthew, Mark and Revelation are all consistent with them being darkened, why would you interpret it as figurative?
    I SAY:
    Tom was claiming that the symbolism of the Bible proved that preterism was the only correct interpretation. i was merely using his “language” against him, to prove that the symbolism also AGREED with our (yours and mine) literal interpretation.

    Again, yes the darkening of the stars IS literal, but Philippians says believers are stars. So the darkening of the stars no longer giving their light also represents the “removal” of the stars at the Rapture.

    4)
    YOU SAID:
    So you see, not everything is a symbolic nor is everything literal. It depends on the context and if there is anything in Scripture that would support a symbolic interpretation.
    I SAY:
    Yes, but sometimes (often) the text is both literal AND symbolic at the same time.

    5)
    YOU SAID:
    The “Stars” in Revelation represent several different things, including literal stars.
    1:20 – Symbolic – The seven stars are seven angels (represents angels, that is, overseers)
    6:13 – Literal – And the stars in the sky fell to the earth (Meteorites/Asteriods)
    8:10 – Symbolic – And a great star blazing like a torch (causing the waters to turn poisonous)
    8:12 – Literal – A third of the sun, moon and stars darkened by a third.
    9:1 – Symbolic – I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth (An angel opens the Abyss)
    12:1 – Symbolic – The woman wearing a crown of twelve stars (twelve tribes of Israel)

    I SAY:
    As I said, events on earth parallel events in Heaven

    Stars represent the Church on earth as in Philippians (and as the spiritual descendants of Abraham). We are the “sons of God” in the natural realm.
    Stars also represent angels in Heaven. They are “sons of God” in the spiritual realm.
    Stars also represent literal stars.

    And yes, they do represent other things, but in my example given to Tom, they represented the Church.

  52. Me again,

    You said:
    “I was just saying that the Sun, Moon and Stars don’t represent the world, the represent Jesus, the Law and the Church.”

    This is what I was speaking of, I don’t believe that the Scripture above regarding the sun, moon and stars has a dual meaning, but that it is speaking specifically of an event that will take place with the sun, moon and stars and that it has nothing to do with the law ,which we are not under in this covenant, nor is there any symbolism regarding the church. I believe this is specifically the sun, moon and stars being darkened as a result of the wrath of God and nothing more.

    You said:
    “In other words, the Sun, Moon and Stars will be darkened means the Church will be gone and its light will no longer shine on the earth during the time that the Lord pours out His wrath on the earth.”

    The above is conjecture, for there is nothing that would confirm this. The church is not even here when the 6th seal is opened. The word Ekklesia translated “Chruch” is found from chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3 and then you never see the word again within the narrative. From Chapter 4 on, the word “Hagios” translated as “Saint” is used when referring to a believer. But at the same time, from chapter 1 though 3 you will not find the word saint either. The church is gone before the first seal is opened, who is the rider on the white horse, which represents that man of lawlessness, the antichrist. Furthermore, there is no mention of either a resurrection or catching away at the sixth seal, but is assumed.

    For example you said:

    “EVERY MOUNTAIN AND ISLAND WILL BE REMOVED FROM ITS PLACE Kingdoms will be destroyed and disappear and God’s Kingdom will be established”

    Mountain does not always refer to kingdoms or goverments, as the context should demine the meaning. The mountains and islands are being moved, that is, stirred from their positions because of the great earthquake that takes place at the sixth seal. This is meant to be taken literally and has no symbolic or spiritual meanings behind it. It is the same with the seventh bowl judgment, except that that earthquake will be the greatest earthquake to take place since man has been on the earth and the results will be that neither the mountains nor the islands will be found and that because of that greatest earthquake. These are meant to be taken literally.

    Personally, I don’t agree that everything has a dual meaning, but is just simply being read into the Scripture.

    Allow me use the following as an example:

    “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

    This is obviously meant to be symbolic and God provides the answers to what the symbols of the sun, moon and twelve stars represent. In Gen.37:9-10, Joseph has a dream that the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down before him, then Jacob reveals the symbolism when he says,

    “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

    Your mother (moon), Jacob (sun) bothers (eleven stars). Collectively they represent the literal nation Israel. In this Scripture, there is no need to apply any other meaning other than symbolic to literal. Personally, I don’t believe in the theory of spiritual Israel. People use this to interpret the woman of chapter 12 and the 144,000 as the church. The 144,000 are a selcect future group, the first fruits out of Israel who acknowledge that Jesus is their Messiah. The Male Child is a collective name for the 144,000, for in chapter 14 it is stated that they did not defile themselves with woman, which would infer that they are all males, ergo, male child. Regarding the 144,000, it is amazing to me that even though John hears the number of those being sealed, 144,000 and then are listed as 12,000 from each tribe, that people interpret this as symbolic for an unknowable number.

    As far as I am concerned, the church is the church, Israel is literal Israel, the 144,000 are exactly that in number and the great tribulation saints are gentiles existing during that last seven years, but are not the church.

    • Don,

      YOU SAY:
      This is what I was speaking of, I don’t believe that the Scripture above regarding the sun, moon and stars has a dual meaning, but that it is speaking specifically of an event that will take place with the sun, moon and stars and that it has nothing to do with the law ,which we are not under in this covenant, nor is there any symbolism regarding the church. I believe this is specifically the sun, moon and stars being darkened as a result of the wrath of God and nothing more.
      I SAY:
      The Law I am referring to is NOT the Mosaic Law, it is the Law of Christ, which is the Law of LOVE. During the Tribulation, “the LOVE of most will grow cold.” It will be a time of lawlessness, which makes sense since of Lawless One, or the Man of Lawlessness will be ruling the world.

      YOU SAY:
      The above is conjecture, for there is nothing that would confirm this. The church is not even here when the 6th seal is opened.
      I SAY:
      Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the SUN be darkened, and the MOON shall not give her light, and the STARS shall fall from heaven, and the POWERS of the HEAVEN shall be SHAKEN:
      And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other… But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

      The events in Matthew 24 parallel the events in Revelation 6.

      BUT I ALSO SAY:
      Yes it is conjecture and you may be right. Tom was making the assumption that Revelation and all prophecy has been fulfilled and that the events were symbolic of events that happened in the first century. I was merely showing him that the events could be symbolic of events in the future.

      There have been several books written on this and they make a very good case. Although you seem to be sure of everything you believe, I am not. No view of eschatology is without seeming contradictions and inconsistencies, therefore my beliefs are not set in stone.

      YOU SAID:
      Personally, I don’t agree that everything has a dual meaning, but is just simply being read into the Scripture.
      I SAY:
      Neither do I. I said many things do, not all.

      YOU SAID:
      As far as I am concerned, the church is the church, Israel is literal Israel, the 144,000 are exactly that in number and the great tribulation saints are gentiles existing during that last seven years, but are not the church.
      I SAY:
      This is a dual prophecy. The Woman is Israel. The Male Child is both Jesus who fled from Herod after His birth AND the 144,000 “firstfruits” of the nation of Israel saved during the Tribulation. The Great Multitude are saved Gentiles that ” come out of great tribulation.”
      Israel is Israel, the Church is the Church.

      YOU SAY:
      Personally, I don’t believe in the theory of spiritual Israel.
      I SAY: Natural Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham. Spiritual Israel are the “spiritual” descendants of Abraham, i.e, those that are counted as righteous by faith in Jesus.

      “If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, mdo not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either” (Romans 11).

      If by “the theory of spiritual Israel” you mean that the Church has replaced Israel, no, I do not either. That is called Replacement Theology.

      Natural Israel are unbelieving Jews. Spiritual Israel is made up of believing Jews and believing Gentiles. Unbelieving Jews are natural branches that have been “broken off.” When a Jewish person accepts Christ, he is grafted back into spiritual Israel.

  53. Hey Toddott,

    Re:
    “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other… But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.”

    From my understanding, the reference to this gathering in the verse above is not the resurrection and catching away, but This event is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Those who are being gathered are those who will have made it through the entire seven years. Angels do not gather the church at the resurrection and catching away. The angels at this event are collecting the wheat. What is not mentioned are the weeds, who according to Mt.13:30, would have been collected first (one taken) and taken to Armegeddon where they are killed by the double-edged sword that proceeds from the riders mouth (word of God) and are eaten by the birds that the angel calls together.

    If you will look, the abomination is mentioned in Mt.24:15, which begins the great tribulation period which is the last 3 1/2 years, for Dan.9:27 says, he will make a covenant for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the seven he will cause sacifices offerings to cease and on a wing of the temple (holy place) will set up an abomination that causes desolation. So, Mt.24:15 is the half way point, which, if the church were here, would put us through the majority of the wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer.

    One of the main errors that is made is that people make Jesus’ return to end the age and set up his millennial kingdom synonymous with the resurrection and catching away, when these are two separate events.

    Re:
    “Although you seem to be sure of everything you believe, I am not. No view of eschatology is without seeming contradictions and inconsistencies, therefore my beliefs are not set in stone.”

    The only thing that I am sure of are the things that I am sure of. Any other information that I am not sure of goes in what I call my “Spiritual cupboard.” But these things that I am responding to are not in that cupboard.

    Re:
    “The Male Child is both Jesus who fled from Herod after His birth ”

    You say that Jesus is the male child? If you will look closer, Jesus does not fit the critieria of the male child. The dragon is waiting to devour (kill) the child as soon as it is born, but it is “snatched up” to God and his throne before the dragon (Satan) can get him. The male child is caught up in the same way as the living church at the time of the catching away. Jesus on the other hand was killed (crucified) and then three days later resurrected. So, he does not fit the criteria as being the male child because he would have been considered to be devoured, where the male child is caught up alive and unharmed . The word translated “caught up” is the word Harpazo which is the same word used to describe the catching away of Philip, Paul being caught up to the third heaven and of course the church in 1 Thes.4:16. The male child/144,000 will be caught up alive before Satan can kill them, where Jesus was killed.

  54. Re:
    “Natural Israel are the physical descendants of Abraham. Spiritual Israel are the “spiritual” descendants of Abraham, i.e, those that are counted as righteous by faith in Jesus.”

    By our faith, Abraham is our father in faith, but that does not make us spiritual Israel. It makes us those who heirs of the promise in fatih, the church. It is an error to say that because we are children of Abraham because we have the same faith that we are spiritual Israel. That is reading into the Scripture what is not there, an assumption. From this interpretation all kinds of other errors will follow. We are the church, children of Abraham having the same faith, but that does not constitute us as being spiritual Israel.

    Also, all Paul was pointing out was that we as Gentiles (wild olive tree) have been grafted in to the original olive tree (Israel), but it does not make us spiritual Israel. It makes us the church, heirs of the promise, but as the church. Israel is Israel and the church is the church. They are two different groups. What has happened is that you have applied the name “Spiritual Israel” to the church, which is conjecture and that because this designation is never used in Scripture, it is assumed.

    So, I guess that these are some things that we differ on.

    Yours in Christ

  55. toddott: Here you said I was wrong – and about stars.
    You are WRONG. Isaiah 13:10 is NOT speaking of “Men and Nations,” it is speaking of the Church.

    STARS
    The stars of heaven symbolize believers. Abrahams natural descendant are spoken of as sand of the sea. Abrahams spiritual descendants are spoken of as stars in the sky. Philippians 2:15.

    Abraham children are believers that is truth – And we know the world lies in Darkness. Amen.
    The Great falling away in Apostasy – then what is apostasy. Its the fallen church= Judas, Cain, Esau, = falling stars , fallen Angels there were.

    JUDE 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they KNOW NATURALLY , as BRUTE BEASTS , in those things they corrupt themselves. (brute beast is what makes up Nations of People) –
    JUDE 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
    JUDE 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, TWICE DEAD PLUCKED UP BY THE ROOTS ;
    JUDE 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; WANDERING STARS, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
    Just as Israel the chosen ones were in Apostasy when Jesus Came. It was a dark day BECAUSE ISRAEL WAS IN THE DARK. The Sun was dark, and the moon = the church did not reflect Christ at all. Did not you read my post on Eze. 9 about the Mark. They sin was worse than Romes.

    The Angel was told to start in the House of God – Same as N.T said Judment begins at the house of God.

    The World knows nothing about truth and righteousness. They will get less stripes than those that know and turn away from it.

    There are only Fallen angels or Risen Angels – no in between.
    JOB 38:7- When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Can you see the 2 distinct sons in this scripture. Morning stars and sons of God.

    Yes God knew us before the foundation of the world. He knew who would Love Him and those that would not love him. God is the Alpha and Omega – If HE does not know the End from the Beginning then HE would not be GOD. He is also the Author and Finisher of our faith. He new when you was born who you would serve or HE is NOT God. That is FOREKNOWLEDGE – God knew Cain wouild not serve HIM but he gave HIM that right to serve him. The Free will is where evil came from.

    DARKNESS
    Darkness symbolizes sin and evil, lawlessness.

    I understand and agree with you on the Moon, and Darkness that is what I was saying. But when the church is full of darkness. They are worse off than the cold unbeliever. Heb. 6 is speaking of Jews turning away Christ. Then what hope would the have of salvation. The Law could not deliever them. So that is why it would have been impossible to get saved. If you turn down the Revealed Word for you hour and day. If God turns a corner we have to turn with Him. Luthers Message and Pentecost 1906 is not going to do any good in 2,013 – though you believe them . The Latter reign has come and gone since them.

    • This definition and explanation of Apostasy may be helpful. It is copied here  from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia,  Dictionary of Biblical Imagery. The link is below.

      “The Christian understanding of apostasy is ‘a willful falling away from, or rebellion against, Christian truth’. 

      Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian….”, though many believe that biblically this is impossible (‘once saved, forever saved’). 

      “Apostasy is the antonym of conversion; it is deconversion.”

      “The Greek noun apostasia (rebellion, abandonment, state of apostasy, defection) is found only twice in the New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). However, ‘the concept of apostasy is found throughout Scripture’.”

      “The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery states: ‘there are at least four distinct images in Scripture of the concept of apostasy’. All connote an intentional defection from the faith.”

      “These images are: Rebellion; Turning Away; Falling Away; Adultery.”

      “Rebellion: in classical literature apostasia was used to denote a coup or defection. By extension the Septuagint always uses it to portray a rebellion against God (Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19).”

      “Turning away: Apostasy is also pictured as the heart turning away from God (Jeremiah 17:5-6) and righteousness (Ezekiel 3:20).” 

      “In the OT it centers on Israel’s breaking covenant relationship with God though disobedience to the law (Jeremiah 2:19), especially following other gods (Judges 2:19) and practicing their immorality (Daniel 9:9-11). . . . Following the Lord or journeying with him is one of the chief images of faithfulness in the Scriptures. . . . The . . . Hebrew root (swr) is used to picture those who have turned away and ceased to follow God (‘I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me,’ 1 Samuel 15:11). . .  The image of turning away from the Lord, who is the rightful leader, and following behind false gods is the dominant image for apostasy in the OT.”

      “Falling away: The image of falling, with the sense of going to eternal destruction, is particularly evident in the New Testament. . . . In his [Christ’s] parable of the wise and foolish builder, in which the house built on sand falls with a crash in the midst of a storm (Matthew 7:24-27) . . . he painted a highly memorable image of the dangers of falling spiritually.”

      “Adultery: One of the most common images for apostasy in the Old Testament is adultery.”

       “Apostasy is symbolized as Israel the faithless spouse turning away from Yahweh her marriage partner to pursue the advances of other gods (Jeremiah 2:1-3; Ezekiel 16). . . ‘Your children have forsaken me and sworn by god that are not gods. I supplied all their needs, yet they committed adultery and thronged to the houses of prostitutes’ (Jeremiah 5:7, NIV). 

      Adultery is used most often to graphically name the horror of the betrayal and covenant breaking involved in idolatry. Like literal adultery it does include the idea of someone blinded by infatuation, in this case for an idol: ‘How I have been grieved by their adulterous hearts . . . which have lusted after their idols’ (Ezekiel 6:9).”

      “Speaking with specific regards to apostasy in Christianity, Michael Fink writes:

      ‘Apostasy is certainly a biblical concept, but the implications of the teaching have been hotly debated. The debate has centered on the issue of apostasy and salvation. Based on the concept of God’s sovereign grace, some hold that, though true believers may stray, they will never totally fall away. Others affirm that any who fall away were never really saved. Though they may have “believed” for a while, they never experienced regeneration. Still others argue that the biblical warnings against apostasy are real and that believers maintain the freedom, at least potentially, to reject God’s salvation’.”

      http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostate#section_3

    • Morning Tom and all,

      You said:
      “so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky”

      Our shining among them like the stars of the sky, is just a metaphor representing our righteousness and should not be applied as such to everywhere that the word “Stars” is used in Scripture. Let’s use some common sense here! It is the context that should determine what the word Star is figuratively being used to represent. As far as Isa 13:10 is concerned, the darkening of the sun, moon and stars is speaking of the literal sun, moon and stars being darkened, as in light being removed. Not everything in Scripture is to be interpreted as having a symbolic meaning.

      You also said:
      “DARKNESS
      Darkness symbolizes sin and evil, lawlessness”

      In the same manner, darkness does not always represent evil, but it also represents the absense of light and can also be used figuratively to represent the state of the spirit. Just because a word is used figuratively to represent one state does not mean that it has the same meaning everywhere else in Scripture.

  56. Dear Dru — loved that post — so good – I will put this post in my files.

    You said
    Apostasy is the rejection of Christ by one who has been a Christian….”, though many believe that biblically this is impossible (‘once saved, forever saved’).

    The debate has centered on the issue of apostasy and salvation. Based on the concept of God’s sovereign grace, some hold that, though true believers may stray, they will never totally fall away.

    Still others argue that the biblical warnings against apostasy are real and that believers maintain the freedom, at least potentially, to reject God’s salvation’

    Others affirm that any who fall away were never really saved. Though they may have “believed” for a while, they never experienced regeneration.

    I believe this last one here. Never experienced the inflilling of the Holy Spirit.
    And I got to believe that.

    Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Sealed unto the day of redemption – God is the author and finisher of our faith. But we must have the Seal of God till we all reach our destination.
    That is the New Birth – Regeneration is what it is about. Then we all belong to a NEW GENERATION – The Old generation is dead to us now.

    2nd. Commandment – have no other gods before us. That takes awhile to do. As before Christ we served many gods. Espeically ourselves. You have to have the Holy Ghost Power to kill them all. By letting Jesus completely take over your life. If we could do it on our own . Tthen Jesus would have died in vain. amen.

    Love ya brother. bro. ty

    • Regarding once saved always saved, tell me what you think about this:

      “My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 0remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.”

      First of all, notice that in verse that those being addressed are referred to as borthers and sisters, which would show that they are believers. According to the Scripture above, those brothers or sisters wander from the truth, then they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. But if someone turns them back, then those sins that they have accumulated while sowing to the flesh are covered and they are saved from death.

      Here’s another example:

      “The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.”

      In the letter to Sardis, Jesus says that, for those who overcome, he will not blot out their names from the book of life, which infers that for those who do not overcome, their names can be blotted out. The letter are to the church as a whole and to the individual believer. Jesus also mentions that there is going to be a great falling away from the faith because of pesecution and the threat of death. In order to be able to fall away, you must belong as a believer. When people use the argument and say, “well, they were never really saved then.” This is just semantics. Scripture shows that it is possible for a true believer to lose salvation if he or she goes back into the flesh.

      Jesus said that he is the vine and we are the branches. If we the branches do not remain in him, the vine, the we are good for nothing but to be broken off and thrown into the fire. That doesn’t mean that they were never branches, but that they were true branches that did not bear fruit.

      Once saved always saved is a lie, for we need to continue going from faith to faith being transformed into his image.

  57. Bro. dmcal52 — I was born a York and got the genes of a York. I will always be a York even if my daddy said I wasn’t – I got the dna in me to prove it.

    It is the same thing with Jesus Christ —- You might be a prodigal son, and bad sinner, do things you shouldnt do. But if you have the dna of Jesus blood in you. Your name is written on the Lambs book of life. You are a Son and always well be a Son. Cause you was “Elected by God” — Born of God — He knew you before You was ever formed in your Mothers womb and that is scripture. You Cannot become an UN-SON Once you are Really Born by the Spirit of Jesus Christ – In the Blood He spilled on Calvary – Your Gene or life germ fell in the earth and rose you up to who you are right now in this age. When you was Born He knew you would SERVE HIM.

    I believe BY FAITH – I am predestinated period. I believe by FAITH God Foreknew Me – before I was ever in the Womb of my mother. His Foreknowledge knew I was coming. Praise be to God

    God did not hate Esau — But He did know that Esau would not serve Him or HE would not be God. The Alpha and Omega.
    Esau was not Bride material even those he was a very good man. Better than Jacob the supplanter who was change into Israel.

    Like I have always said on this forum. The New Birth is still a Mystery in our day just like in Jesus day. If Jesus chose us and then “Marked our inquities” then who could stand. David would have been a doomed man- but David Loved God that was the gene that was in him. He already had Christ in Him when born — I Praise God that He does not “Mark my iniquites” but has Grace on me Just like a Husband and Wife. They love one another and it breaks their heart to hurt one or the other. If our life is not like that. Then go back and start over again at the alter.

    If you a Man you have the right to marry the woman you want – you elect them. Same with Woman – Jesus has more right than we to to “Elect” His own Bride that He already foreknew. Election is What it ALL ABOUT when serving God. Sure not on our Merits. Its ALL GRACE PERIOD no add on’s. And if you are Married to Jesus – You will take on HIS SPIRIT not anybody else’s.

    Lord bless you 52 —— ty

  58. Tom,

    This is exactly why there are some who have no understanding. You ignored the Scriptural proof that I provided you. What part of “I will never blot out there name from the book of life” didn’t you understand?

    I guarantee you that, anyone who goes back into the flesh, that is, back to living in the sinful nature will not inherit the kingdom of God. If Jesus is telling us that whoever overcomes he will not blot out there name from the book of life, this tells us that, if a persons name is in the book of life, then he is a true believer, for his or her name is written in the book of life. Also, by Jesus stating that for the one who overcomes that he will not blot out his name from the book of life, the opposite must be true for the believer who does not overcome.

    You also ignored James 5:19 that I gave you to show that a brother or sister who wanders away from the truth is accumulating sin and is on their way to death. This is why we have so much false teachings going on and that because people don’t adhere to the word of God.

    Jesus is the true vine, we are the branches, if a branch does not remain in him he cannot bear fruit and if a branch does not bear fruit it withers and is good for nothing but to be picked up and thrown into the fire (lake of fire).
    These are believers that Jesus is referring to.

    There is no such thing as once saved always saved. Every believer must remain in Jesus Christ. Faith keeps us connected to God’s grace. Why do you think that there are so many warnings by Paul and the other Apostles to avoid living according to the flesh? Because it is impossible to please God in the flesh.

    Here is another good example showing that there is no such thing as once saved always saved:

    “But what if the servant thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant in pieces and banish him with the unfaithful.”

    In the verse above, the reference is to a “servant” which would make Jesus his Lord. Notice that if that servant goes back into the flesh, beating other servants, partying and getting drunk, which is basically sowing to the flesh, then the Lord will return when he least expects it and will give him the same punishment as an unbeliever.

    Here’s something else for you to ponder: What is the purpose of the seven letters to the churches in Revelation? The same theme is present in each letter, “whoever overcomes”. If a believer does not repent and overcome, then he receives none of the promises, which also means no eternal life.

    If you can’t understand these verses, then you have a problem and you need to open your eyes to what they mean.

    PS You can be a York or any othere nationality and still not inherit eternal life. It requires faith and if anyone who is wilfulling living in the flesh, then they are not having faith and are disconnected from grace.

  59. Bro. Damcal 52— cannot you understand that all Doctrine’s in the Bible come from a scripture somewhere in the Bible. Thats why we have about 1,000 denominations in the USA – I shared just a few of scriptures just like you did me. But I did not hear you speak of any of them. WHY!

    Cause that is what your intellect is telling you. But the intellect is not the Spirit of God – It is rational, and not reliable for a REVELATION from the Spirit. Their are many scriptures that seem contradictory. This is why you have to have a Spiritual Revealing to it. The Holy Spirit is the interpreter.

    Example: Matt. 28:19 Jesus said to Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Pretty plain right – Most Christians use these Catholic Titles instead of the way ALL the Disciples Batptized.

    The Church started in Book of Acts 2:38 and Peter Baptized in Jesus Name.
    So which one is right. It takes a revealing of the Spirit to know it for sure.

    Matt. 28:19 Jesus said to baptize in the “NAME” singular and not Titles. And just 10 days later – His disciples were baptizing in Jesus Name –

    Did the Disciples miss it. And the whole church start out wrong. If they were wrong on that maybe they were wrong on a lot of things.
    Answer is – They were not wrong – They did it just exactly like Jesus told them to do it. In the “Name” not titles — if you signed a check every day do you sign your Name to it – not just put Father, or son, holy ghost. Of course not. There is not 2 and 3 different ways to do things without it becoming confusion.

    Do you know the History of 1906 Pentecostal movement. It Split up in hundreds of different ways and Brothers hated each other just over how to Baptize Right when it was so SIMPLE. Jesus Name Baptizing was a New thing then. The Revival brought many denominations over and the people actually Got Saved. But they still clinged and bought their wrong doctrins into Pentecost as well. Thats why God had to send a Prophet like He always did to each generation.

    You are seeing the after math of all this confusion today. People just cannot seem to change when they got such a “Tradition” in their intellect that will not budge. Same exact thing in Jesus day. Can you imagine looking Jesus in the face and telling Him He had a devil. And that He spoke lies. Same thing today. Ask God to give you a revelation of Truth and be sincere in your heart and He will give you the truth. But not unless you are sincerely honest in your heart to receive it.

    This is why the Church so Badly Needs the Holy Spirit to GUIDE them into all truth. That is the True Evidence of the Holy Spirit. You will have a teachable Mind and soul and a “Clear understanding”. But if you already have your mind made up that no one could teach you anything. Believe me you will not learn anything in this Babylon age.

    Now I must say this – I got saved in a Pentecostal church and was raised in one all my life. They preached there are 3 Gods in 3 Persons, Speaking in tongues was THEE only evidence of being Holy Ghost filled,

    If you Baptized in Jesus name you was a “Antichrist”. They believed every one that did not believe in 3 persons of One God was a anti-christ. Most trinitarians still think that. And they the ones that got the problem. You could not even keep the 2nd. Commandment of God and believe there are 3 gods in a three persons. Person is abbreveation for Personality.

    They taught me anybody that was not Born again was going to “fry for eternity in the lake of fire”. They fought over the doctrine of tithes and did not understand that. They did not believe in Prophets and still do not unless it comes out of their schools. And everyone Knows you have to be born a Prophet not educated to be one.
    They taught me to not believe thier is a Eternal Secuity in GOD.

    So I do not teach what I teach without already knowing I use to believe just like all of you on this forum mostly. But Praise God I have seen the Lord in His Word. By Revelation.

    • Hi Tom,

      Regarding this current topic of discussion that you are having with Don, (dmcal52), above.

      All you have to do is read the post regarding “apostasy” again to understand what it is that Don is referring to.
      The post that I am referring to, is the post that was provided by DJ which you mistakenly believed was from dru.
      (Heck if you have difficulties figuring that out, no wonder your hermeneutics have a peculiar slant?)

      Verses like those that Don had provided to you, as well as parables found in say Matthew 25:14-30. for example, indicate that a believer can either;

      1- Possibly lose their salvation.

      or

      2- Possibly lose their opportunity in being allowed to enter the Millennial Kingdom.

      Or possibly both.

      Scripture is full of warnings that more than imply that after one receives the Gospel they are to remain diligent in doing, (rather than just hearing), what Yeshua tells us to do and be as His disciples.
      As in Matthew 24:46., “Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.”, which is relevant to Matthew 24:42-45.

      Consider this, if what you believe is true, and the simple belief in the Lord Yeshua was somehow a “predestined dna like free ticket” then how is it even possibly for an “apostasy”actually take place?

      And what sense do verse like 1 Corinthians 15:1,2., make? Paul is speaking to believers here, and how could a believer have that belief be in “vain”?

      “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.”

      I think that the “if” above just may have some stimulations attached to it.

      Now you have gone from that topic of discussion onto a completely new one regarding the Trinity. This is a forum where Marianne allows for us to express our thoughts and beliefs, yet one most also take into consideration the “holiness” of the subject matter itself. So I would suggest that you be very careful as to how you proclaim your thoughts, and what it is that you believe, as being factual.

      A.

      • Some corrections should be made above, but the most important one would be that the, “I think that the “if” above just may have some stimulations attached to it.”

        Should have read as;

        “I think that the “if” above just may have some “stipulations” attached to it.

        A

      • A

        there is a difference between the “facts” and interpretation of the facts.

        different interpretations will occur here

        Tom has a right to his opinion and interpretation, even if everyone thinks he is wrong.

        there is a bit , or a lot, of truth in each comment.

        • M,

          I never denied his rights to state his opinion, only to keep in mind the holiness of the subject matter.

          In respects to there being truth in each comment that is made, that would be debateable, and for Yeshua to judge.

          Be Blessed in Yeshua our King.
          Amen

  60. You know sir – I had suspicion on more than one occasion that someone was being like the Pharisee trying to catch Jesus in a trap etc. That is pretty low life to say the least.

    On most of the post Marrianne puts out she names alot of things to talk about. When no body else is talking I thought mise well put up something. About Holiness. etc. etc. etc.

    Is this your forum or is it Marianne’s .

    Are you the spokeman for her forum.

    you also said below:
    So I would suggest that you be very careful as to how you proclaim your thoughts, and what it is that you believe, as being factual.

    That sounds like a threat to me. So now I guess you are part of the Sanhedrin that is going to put me out.

    As far as other posts on here is concerned it would take months to really sit down and answer every question on subjects with politically perfect script. I also do not have the pleasure of alot of time. Because I am a 24/7 caregiver. Everything I do has to be in a hurry. But I know you would not understand that situation are anyone else for that matter.

    If you all want to kick me off here. Go ahead. The Doctrines I preach and teach can all be found in the Scriptures. Just like your mainstream doctrines that are on TV and in about everychurch in Mainstream.

    Im not a mainstream Follower of Jesus. And I do not try to trick people like they tryed with Jesus, blashphemed him, called Him a devil, Hated him.
    His doctines could not be seen by the great minds of His day. Paul and Disciples and all the Prophets stood alone most the time.

    Paul spent about 12 years learning himself over again in the Law of Moses and finding Jesus in it. Most average believer will not spend 10 minutes to listen to anything but what they already heard for 40 years by an college man.

    I actually feel sorry for you alienated – And tried to be your friend. But you was so rude , crude, and smart elic, and made fun of people, – I guess cause you missed your rapture last year in May. Had your bags packed , everything in order . But it did not happen. Now you got the gul to tell me i had better watch what I say and teach on here.
    But you probably do not want to talk about that do you. You was caught away alright into your own mind. And I didn’t do one thing to you.

    Have a great day – —————————— bro. ty.

    • you viewpoint is welcome here……it does not have to agree with what others think.

      if they do not agree, they do not have to talk to you.

      they can talk to each other, or about something else.

    • Tom,

      Nowhere within that statement above could it be misconstrued as being a threat? Neither did I suggest that I was the “spokesman or moderator or what have you”.
      I said, “This is a forum where Marianne allows for us to express our thoughts and beliefs, yet one most also take into consideration the “holiness” of the subject matter itself. So I would suggest that you be very careful as to how you proclaim your thoughts, and what it is that you believe, as being factual.”

      You have proclaimed yourself as being a teacher many times within the past, (as you also say again above), and that logically, would mean that you present your interpretations as being Biblical fact.
      And personally, I don’t believe that you teach what was taught by any of the Apostles, and have explained to you as to why in the past.

      Above you also state that you’re a 24/7 caretaker, (whereas the proper terminology would be “caregiver”), and that I wouldn’t know anything regarding that.
      Who made you God?
      Just for your information, I happen to know full well what that consists of having taken care of my Mother for over 2 1/2 years, (24/7), while she was suffering from Alzheimer’s.

      In respects about what you say regarding being rude…..
      right back at cha tommy.

      A.

  61. Marianne and the extended body of Christ……My son is due to marry a jezebel on 6/1/13. He is a man after God’s own heart. A witness for the Kingdom. She is a person that has been involved with lude acts with many men at one event, her lies are monumental, she steals any chance she gets, she minipulates our son at every turn. He says that because he is a Christian he must forgive her. We agree, but do not marry her. She is doing everything in her power to bring this man of God into her web of lies and fornication. Please, please please pray that God will stop this marriage and set our son free from her evil snare. This woman is defiling God’s servant. Pray for his protection and deliverence. I would leave his name but God and the Holy Spirit know his name. Initals are GJ. In Jesus Holy Name pray , our Lord is the only way to save our son. Join with his father and I to break her bond with him, to set him free from her spell. To bind and cast satan away from him. Thank-you in advance. G’s mom

    • dear on my face

      You have more than one issue here…..one is definitely her, she is a jezebel.

      the other issue is your son himself.

      the first thing you need to ask is why is he attracted to her, wanting to marry her against your wishes and against what is biblically correct ?

      why is he is so easily manipulated?

      the answer to controlling her is your son. He empowers her, he is permissive, and does not stop her behavior.

      She cannot do anything to him unless he allows it.

      He cannot be God’s servant and be so wrapped up with her. He is doing this to himself, and the root cause of this weakness needs to be discovered and addressed.

      This sort of permissiveness suggests an ahab personality in a man..

      He seems to be attracted to an aggressive jezebel woman, who is not putting her past behind, but continuing her behavior into the present.

      He is taking a passive role.

      So the question is why?

      You need to sit down with him and be firm about your position. You need to tell him what will happen. She will split him away from his family, possess him, and control everything. She will lie and start trouble, and he needs to face his own weakness and vulnerability as to why he wants such a hell cat in his life. If he loves you, he will listen.

      Your son needs your wisdom.

      You need to really tell him like it is. Do not be silent and just pray. Speak out and pray with him.

      He needs to get in touch with his own male self, and be the leader in this situation. He should be leading her, and working to destroy the jezebel spirit that infects this woman, rather than just showing pity and permitting her to continue in her ways.

      you and your husband should talk to him together, alone. then, try to get a pastor involved to back you up.

      your son needs deliverance, but not from her, but from a weak part of his nature that draws him to her. This weak spot must be explored and undone.

      Is he shy? Is he usually this passive with people?

      Does he want others to lead, and he will follow

      There is no forgiveness without repentance and a changed life. He is forgiving her, but he is not requiring her to change. this is wrong.

      I will join you in prayer, but this will take some action on your part. Pray about asserting your position, and let him know in this marriage he will be unequally yoked to a sinner, and God cannot honor this marriage.

  62. Too All –

    What the Bible says about the 2nd. Coming

    Every serious student of the Bible knows that some statements in it can be taken literally at face value, and others have to be interpreted allegorically. Much of the disagreement over what the Bible really means comes from difference of opinion about which parts are factual and which are metaphorical. For example, everyone would agree that the statement, ‘The Lord is my rock,’ (Psalm 18:2) is metaphorical. But what about the prophecy that the moon will turn to blood? (Joel 2:31)
    About 350 years ago, Galileo was condemned for teaching that the earth orbits the sun. The inquisition claimed that the Bible teaches that the sun moves and the earth stands still. From their point of view, it seemed reasonable to take literally statements like, “The sun also rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it arose.” (Ecclesiastes 1:5) In this age of space shuttles we have a different perspective. We know that such statements were never intended to be taken literally.
    Many people were waiting for Christ when He first came. Yet His coming was different from what most people expected. They thought He would be a glorious King–a military hero. They wanted Him to lead the armies of Israel into battles of victory and destruction, and to establish a new government with Israel in power. Compared to the hurricane they envisioned, however, His coming was like a gentle breath of fresh air. Many people living at the time did not even know that anything important had taken place. The reason people were mistaken about His coming is that they interpreted the prophecies in a very literal way.
    Jesus showed that many of the prophecies about His coming were symbolic. For example, prophecy said Jesus would redeem the children of Israel, but He showed that the true Israelites are all the children of God who hear and obey His Word. (John 8: 37-47; Matt 3:9; Coloss. 3:11; Gal. 3:28; Romans 3:29, 10:12) Or, as Paul said, “He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter.” (Romans 2:28, 29)
    The Jews knew the Old Testament prophecy about Christ’s coming: “I will show wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord.” (Joel 2:30-31) Some who read these prophecies expected that there would be natural disasters and great political upheavals when Christ came. The Bible says that these prophecies were fulfilled when Christ came, (Acts 2:14-21) but not in the dramatic way that people expected.
    In place of a worldly kingdom and a physical battle, Jesus ruled a heavenly kingdom and fought a spiritual battle. (John 6:15; Luke 22:49; Matthew 26:52) “My kingdom is not of this world,” He said. “If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (John 18:36) Or, as Paul said later, “We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, and against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” (Ephesians 6:12) In each case, the Lord showed that prophecy is primarily concerned with spiritual events, not political ones.
    Jesus did little while He was on earth to change the natural order of things. Kingdoms have continued to rise and fall. There have still been wars, famines and plagues; births, marriages and deaths. But on a spiritual level, things were quite different. The power of hell had been overcome. A new era of spiritual freedom began.
    Like the first coming of Christ, the second coming is primarily a spiritual event. We needn’t be looking for dramatic changes of government or climate, because the Lord’s kingdom is not a civil authority or a geographical location. His kingdom is concerned with the government of the human mind–with a life according to divine laws. The signs that He has come again should be the changes in our own hearts. “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:20,21)
    When Jesus came on earth the first time, He changed the world with His truth. When Pilate asked Him what kind of king He was, He answered,”For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth.” (John 19:37) His miracles healed a few people; His truth healed countless people. He said, “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:31)
    Jesus promised to give us still more truth–deeper truth–at His second coming. “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will not longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly of the Father.” (John 16:25)
    God is present everywhere. He is not limited by space. So we can’t really talk about Him “coming” or “going”. God didn’t come to earth, because He is everywhere. But Jesus was a manifestation of God and a revelation of His truth. Likewise, the Lord said that His second coming would be a manifestation of Himself and revelation of His truth. He said He would come as the Spirit of truth–the Helper or Comforter. “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:12-14) “You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.” (John 14:15-18)

    • I would think that if a literal interpretation is possible, such as the turning dark ( solar eclipse), or moon turning to blood ( blood moons exist) then we should consider that first. If not, then a more metaphorical interpretation should be applied. For example, I do not expect a real lamb to come back and rescue me.

    • Tom,

      Tell me, how do you determined which passages are to be interpreted literally and which are to be interpreted symbolically?

      For example:

      See, the day of the Lord is coming
      —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
      to make the land desolate
      and destroy the sinners within it.
      The stars of heaven and their constellations
      will not show their light.
      The rising sun will be darkened
      and the moon will not give its light.
      I will punish the world for its evil,
      the wicked for their sins.
      I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
      and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
      I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
      more rare than the gold of Ophir.
      Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
      and the earth will shake from its place
      at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
      in the day of his burning anger.

      Is this passage symbolic or literal?

    • It would also be nice to provide the source from which the above was merely copied and pasted too.

      Praise unto Yeshua the Highest.
      Amen.

    • Hi Tom and all,

      First of all, regarding Acts 2:17-21 which says:

      ““ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.”

      The above part of the prophesy has been fulilled and may be on-going, for God may still pour out his spirit and cause us who are 2000 years later to see visions and dream dreams. But, the second part of that prophecy has yet to be fulfilled, which is stated below. Peter just included the entire prophecy, but what is written belown has yet to take place.

      “I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ ”

      As an example, consider the following Scripture:

      “He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

      “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor [and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,]

      .” Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

      The rest of the verse that I put in brackets Jesus did not include. He stopped reading in mid-sentence and that because only the part that he had read was fulfilled. Here is the rest of the verse which Jesus left out:

      “and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,”

      Jesus didn’t include that because everything prior to that in the Scripture had been fulfilled and the second part is yet to come. In the same way, Peter should not have included the information regarding the sun being turned to darkness and the moon to blood, for that has not yet taken place. Revelation, which was written in 95 ADish speaks of these events as future from John’s time frame. We have no fulfillment of the abomination of desolation being set up, nor any of the seals, trumpet or bowl judgments. The world hasn’t even seen that man of lawlessness who will proclaim himself to be God and worshipped as such. Nor have we seen the mark of the beast.

      The day of the Lord is coming and very quickly. A proof of that is the level of tehnology that the world is at, for it would need to be at this point in order for the system of the mark of the beast to control buying and selling (crediting and debiting) .

      All of the plagues written in the book of Revelation, as well as in other books, are still future when God begins to dismantle human governments and makes man scarcer than pure gold and more rare than the gold of Ophir. The plagues that are written in Revelation should be taken literally, and that because these are the events that God will use to decimate the population of the earth and to bring in his millennial kingdom.

      The day of the Lord right at the doorstep. Why do you think that Jesus said,

      “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may escape all that is about to happen.”

      • No argument from me regarding the above.
        Much is still to happen.

        Praise Yeshua our Holy Righteousness.
        Amen.

  63. Yes Marianne – If I understand you in a right way. Yes I believe that the literal Signs of his coming could be seen. I think God always warns his people with Signs and Wonders. In the Natural before The Spiritual. But when I read the Bible I see that the multitudes always seem to miss the Natural happenings.

    How in the World could Israel doubt God after all the things happened in Egypt and God answered their prayers by sending them a Prophet Deliverer that everytime he Spoke to Pharoah with “Thus saith the Lord” it happened. And they still was a thorn in Moses heart. And did not believe what he said . It seems to me that “Man always has a way that they just dont get it” till its to late. I heard a great teacher say the other day – things are not always the way it seems. I believe that.

    They provoked Moses over and over again and rebelled against their Angel messenger. 10 out of 12 believed the False negative reports of the Spies that were sent out. Paul warns us absolutely to “take heed” to that Exodus – That is what we are in right now. An Exodus.

    Like Paul in Hebrews Eleven. He makes it very clear the prophets themselves should have been their signs. That was their greatest sign of the age sent to them.

    Now Just Take Jesus life and Birth, and death burial and RESURRECTION. Most all Israel were so blind that missed the GREATEST sign of all. In their day and paid the price for it in 70 A.D.

    Hundreds of prophecy’s fulfilled why where they so blind.
    It was because of their “TRADITIONS” Jesus said that they made the WORD of GOD into something different. And of course they was the MULTITUDES of that day. And People just automatically go with the multitudes for Gensis to Now. Its always a remnant – that is the Word of God

    I just watch a mini series on the Dust Storms and droughts in American in the 1930’s – Judgment was striking American for all the evil deeds they had done in the first 150 years.

    It Got so bad that the 1930’s storms that the Sun was completely blocked out Many times. Then Grasshoppers invaded the land by the millions and millions and it showed in all film and said they actually blocked out the rays of the Sun etc. . Everything went south for America in the 30″s. Then war broke out in 1940. A great WOE had started in the 30’s.

    In Iraq the Sun went dark again when he set the oil wells on fire.
    Russia had a meltdown and it killed 125,000 people all the way down into Europe. The Radication got into the rivers and made them bitter. The Name of the Nuclear Meltdown meant – Wormwood.

    We humans do not have good memories is all I can say. And we do not read enough about the histories of all the catastrophic events even like the Civil war. WW1 – WW2 – Korea – Vietnam – Since 1975 to year 2000 – 77 million people have died in wars. The Hate, Racism, Perversions, and the Love of people are worse that animals, the world is starving to death in many countries, famines, diseases that are incurable etc etc. These to me are the natural signs of great tribulations that everybody thinks is a 3-1/2 year time. I just don’t buy that at all. I think American will go down suddenly just like it says in the Bible sudden destruction will happen.

    Jesus is already done and finished with the 2nd. Coming. The Bridge between 2nd. coming and Eternal has been crossed Rev. 10. And Rev. 11:15-17 . Its just a matter of time till complete destruction of the world. Just like in Jesus day – Israel destroyed, But so was Roman Empire, and all Empires mentioned in Daniel. John was a natural but Spiritual sign right in Malachi 3. They was waiting on it. When it come it just did not look like all their traditions and intellect showed them in their OWN MIND. Then Jesus came after him and Jesus actually claimed to Be GOD. The Great SHEPHERD. On that upset them. They all had it pictured some other way. They just knew that could not be the GREAT MESSIAH. I will not go no further on that.

    May the Lord be with you Marianne —– Bro. ty

  64. Dear Bro. 52

    The rest of the verse that I put in brackets Jesus did not include. He stopped reading in mid-sentence and that because only the part that he had read was fulfilled. Here is the rest of the verse which Jesus left out:

    “and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,” –

    1. I understand everything you just said. And agree with it. BUT
    2. You need to read the scriptures below. It was Israel
    3. The Day of Vengeance of our God was Dealing with Israel’s Judgment in 70 A.D. –Let the Word do the talking.

    ISAIAH 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. = Zion is Gentile bride

    Now a New chapter begins with new thoughts
    ISAIAH 61:4 ¶ And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations. = This is the Nation of unbelieving Israel.

    ISAIAH 61:5- And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. = To Israel

    ISAIAH 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. = this is to Israel

    ISAIAH 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them. = Jew and Gentile -For Israels shame and confusion they get double judgment cause of their unbelief of Jesus Christ and Israel the Nation was destroyed in 70 AD. And their Temple worship was gone period.

    ISAIAH 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. == Now it is Jew and Gentile

    ISAIAH 61:9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed. Jew and Gentile nations all.

    Now Gods day of vengence is ready to happen to America. Their false systems of man made creeds and dogma’s is closing fast. America is doomed to destruction just like in 70 AD to Israel.

    Lord bless you 52 ——- bro. ty

    • My point regarding:

      “and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,”

      This hasn’t been fulfilled yet. It is still future!

      I’m curious, how do justify the following as having been fulflled?

      “Immediately after the distress of those days

      “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

      Regarding the above, it states that all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Lord returning with the clouds with great power and glory. So tell me Tom, when was this fulfilled? After his return, he then establishes his millennial kingdom here on earth. When was that fulfilled and where is he? Are you are like a Jehovha’s Witnesses who believe that Jesus returned in 1914 and has been ruling here invisibly ever since?

      What about the Millennial prophecies such as, men beating their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. This is what takes place during the millennium. When was that fulfilled? When in the history of the world has this ever happened? That would be ….. never!

      Where is that mark of the beast that without it, the inhabitants of the earth won’t be able to buy or sell? When was that fulfilled? And regarding the false prophet who will perform those miracles, signs and wonders deceiving the inhabitants of the earth, when was that fulfilled? I could go on and on, but I have got some work to do. Revelation 4 on is still future.

  65. Tom,

    It appears to me from what you have written that you have no understanding of what is coming. The arrival of this man of lawlessness, the antichrist, is directly linked with the physical return of the Lord to the earth to end the age and to establish his millennial kingdom. From the time that he sets up that abomination there will be 3 1/2 years til the return of Christ and the world has not yet seen the return of the Lord. And you can bet that his coming will be a visual, physical return:

    ““Look, he is coming with the clouds, and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

    ““So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. ”

    As you pointed out, the temple was indeed destroyed in 70 AD, but without any fulfillment of the events of the antichrist and the false prophet or the setting up of that abomination. There is another temple coming and it will be made possible by that man of lawlessness who is coming when he makes that covenant with many. In the middle of that seven, he will cause sacrifice and offering to cease and since he will be doing that, then it is obvious that sacrifices and offerings will be being performed at that time. Furthermore, both Daniel and Jesus refer to this abomination being set up, where Daniel proclaims that it will be set up on a wing of the temple, Jesus clarifies the location as the holy place within the temple (Mt.24:15). You can’t have fulfillment of the abomination being set up in the holy place unless you have a temple with the holy place being the center of the temple. I repeat, there has been no fulfillment of these prophecies and therefore they must be still be future.

    Also, regarding whay you said to Marianne:

    ” These to me are the natural signs of great tribulations that everybody thinks is a 3-1/2 year time. I just don’t buy that at all.”

    The angel told Daniel the following:

    “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.”

    Six-nine of those ‘sevens’ where completed with seven ‘sevens’ to rebuild and restore Jerusalem and sixty-two ‘sevens’ with the anointed One being cut off (Christ crucified). This completed six-nine out of the seventy ‘sevens’ with one ‘seven’ remaining. It is this last seven year period that is approaching quickly, the day of the Lord, which will “finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.”

    This events are centered around Israel, but they also include the rest of the world, as can be seen from the following:

    “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance. The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay. While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.”

    The statue that Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of, represented the major ruling kingdoms of the world from the beginning to the end. The Rock that was cut out of the moutain, but not by human hands is Jesus. His falling on the feet of the statue and it breaking into pieces and becoming like chaff on a threshing floor, represents the dismantling of the all of the human governments, which has also not been fulfilled. The Rock falling on the feet of the statue will be carried out by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is going to also fulfill the prophecy regarding the day of the Lord found in Isaiah:

    “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.”

    Just with the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet judgment alone equals half the earths population. In your reference to the sun, moon and stars being blocked out because of the dust bowl, this does not fit the criteria for the plagues that are mentioned, for those are done specifically to the sun, moon and stars themselves and not because of the atmosphere becoming polluted. Furthermore, in your attempt to fulfill the 5th trumpet judgment in referring to the grasshopers (locusts), the ones in Revelation are told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, which is what a normal locust would do, but this prophecy is not about normal locusts, but demonic beings who are let out of the Abyss that have the appearance of locusts and horses prepared for battle. They also have the stings like that of a scorpion and are ordered to torment men for five months with those stings. To further show that they are demonic beings, Rev.9:11 states that they have a king over them, which is that angel of the Abyss, who is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come.

    You said:
    “The multitudes always seem to miss the natural happenings” and this exactly what you are doing. This prophecy regarding these demonic beings coming up from the Abyss is a literal event that will take place at the 5th trumpet. The reason why trumpets 5, 6 and 7 are called woes in the first place, is because they are all demonic in nature.

    Fifth Trumpet/First Woe:
    Inhabitiants of the earth tormented with the stings of demonic beings resembling Locusts for five months. Mankind will not be able to die in order to escape this, because death will elude them.

    Sixth Trumpet/Second Woe:
    Four evil angels bound at the great river Euphrates are released to kill a third of the inhabitiants of the earth. They gather 200 million demonic mounted troups from the Abyss that will have previously been opened at the fifth trumpet and will a third of mankind by fire, smoke and sulfer that proceeds out of their mouths.

    Seventh Trumpet/Third Woe:
    Satan and his angels cast of of heaven and restricted to the earth.

    “Therefore, rejoice you heavens and you who dwell in them! But WOE to the earth and the sea because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short.”

    Satan knows his time is short because from the time that he and his angels are thrown out, he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years left before the Lord returns where at which time he will be cast into the Abyss.

    “He seized that ancient dragon who is the devil, or Satan and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss and locked and sealed it over him to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were over.”

    It is you who needs to pay attention to the details of Scripture Tom. The time period that is coming with the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, (the day of the Lord), was described by Daniel and Jesus as a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning, till now or shall every be. The events that take place during tha time will be unprecedented in the history of mankind and they are coming quickly. But first the church must be removed and then the wrath of God will commence.

    Your interpretation of them softens them to nothing more than typical, natural events that take place in the world. A fourth of the earths population at that time is going to be killed from famine, disease and from the wild beasts of the earth. You version has a fourth of the earth being killed over a long period of time, which no one would notice. The coming plagues are meant to get peoples attention. At the sixth trumpet a third is killed by those four angels and their 200 milllion demonic beings, this will take place in a short period of time. Just with these two, over half the earths population will be decimated. This isn’t counting the first, second and third trumpets that don’t give us a percentage of how many people will die from them. The first trumpet literally burns up a third of the earth and a third of the trees. What it does not say is, how many fatalities are going to be related to this trumpet. You can’t have a third of the earth being burnt up without people being caught in it. Also, with a third of the trees being burnt up, you have a third of the oxygen producing elements no longer here to replentish oxygen in the atmosphere.

    My advice to you is, you had better stop adhering to websites, books and seminars and trust in what the word of God is saying and not in what men are telling you what it says.

  66. Dear marianne, I am not G’s bio-mother but we recieved custody than raised him and his twin. They are our grandsons but in our hearts and in his we are his parents. The blessing of G is that at 22 he has never even held the hand of a girl before her. He is so nieve and has a clean heart. He truly has kept his promise to stay clean until marriage. He is of course flattered by her advances. And lets face it, he is a young man without experience but plenty of hormones. Physically he is normal in every way. Unfortunately he lacks the wisdom and knowledge that age and experience bring. Someday he will be a wonderful man, warrior, husband and father. He can be strong (willful when he needs to be) he does love and serve the Lord. I have seen with my own eyes him take a stand against a pack of bullys , and he has testified in court under oath (three separate times) about his faith, when faced with a court order to become supportive of a homosexual relationship between his mother and another woman he quoted the
    Bible in court at age 8 and refused to be coerced into accepting that sinful alliance. I have seen him wrap his arms around a man and comfort the husband of his murdered wife as the man wept uncontrolably. It is not that G is weak or passive. I believe part of his vulnerability is the wound from his bio-mother. In a real since he is trying to save his mom through this woman. The young woman he is engaged to is so much more worldly and opportunistic than he. It is this woman that wraps herself around him. It is her that poses in a come-hither manner and dresses provocatively. She is the one pushing for this marriage. G doesn’t even know what her colors are for the wedding and he hasn’t been involved with wedding plans from the start. She and her family are making all the arrangements and because they know we disapprove have shut us out. We have begged him to delay the marriage for a year but she won’t hear of it. Friends and family alike say G looks like a deer caught in the head lights right before it is run over. He is a senior at a Christian college and Godly people there are also telling him to reconsider this decision. Yes G is not listening to us and he is rebelling against the council of many. She does not allow anyone to counsel him, she see to it that he is either working or studying and she will not aloow him to study without herself there. She controls his every free moment. He believes it is because she loves hi, he doesn’t see it as domination. He is trying hard to grow up, by taking a stand to prove his adulthood, he believes with this decision he is establishing his right to be called a man. At his age it is good and prudent to step out on his own and accept responsibility for his actions but this is not the time or situation to do it. He has never had to be on his own before. He has either been in our home or at college in the dorms. His inexperience and lack of mature reasoning skills is a dangerious thing. No wonder the Word says so often for a “youngman guard your heart” This decision is too big and has eternal consequences. G has no experience in life judgments and this is his second most important commitment. His first was to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. We have often lifted him up to the throne, as we do yet again. We know that God loves him much more than we can ever do but we are praying that G’s eyes will be opened that his ears will hear the council of all of us who love him. Please keep praying that God’s will be done and that our Heavenly Father protects His own. Thank you for you prayers.

    • dear on my face

      You are going to have to take a more aggressive approach. He is still submitting to the most forceful influence , which is her.

      you are telling him to just delay the marriage…..you should tell him you do not approve and tell him why. she is an unrepentant sinner and she will bring him down, and away from god. she is selfish and a jezebel, and a fornicating woman, and she will cheat on him. etc….. tell him you will not go to the wedding.

      Tell him if he loves god at all, he will break up with her, otherwise, he has chosen the girl, over God. Tell him to quit school, it is hyprocrisy to attend a christian college and go into a relationship that will take him away from God.

      you need to be more forceful…..this will offend him, and he may react against you, but it it better that he is angry at you, than be entangled with her. eventually, he will get over it, and see your point.

      I had to break up my own son with a jezebel. he hated me for a year afterwards….but now it is over.

  67. To all

    REVELATION 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    REVELATION 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    REVELATION 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, WHICH ART, AND WAST,AND ART TO COME; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

    I CHALLENGE YOU ALL TO LOOK UP THE ORIGINAL VERSE 17. YOU WILL NOT FIND THE 4 WORDS — AND ART TO COME.

    Its over — Next is wrath and Judgment and the Ark seen – Meaning THE NEXT FEAST IS YOM-KIPPOR Verses 18-19 — If you did not hear your last Trumpet where you at. Yom-Kippor is judgment time. Read about it in Moses and Israel’s journey. Then its Tabernacles and thats its. If you missed the Last trump which is the 7th. trump of the 7 in the 7 church ages. Wake up

    The 7 Trumpets are already sounded – Jesus Christ camd down to Earth in Rev. 10 and revealed them all. To a Prophet . Just like He did John the Baptist in First coming.

    John the Baptist was the 7th. Trumpet for the end of the O.T age. Many Prophets before him sounded the trumpets. Jesus Christ the same yesterday and forever.

    Also Please NOTE – When John Baptist come it is the same word in Rev. 1:7 of the Coming of Christ to all you #2064 to gather the people. Sound the Trumpet warning – Announcing the Coming Messiah. Which came and they did not believe Him either.

    MATT. 21:32 For John came -2064 unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. –John a Prophet come first before the coming of Christ to introduce him. —- you won’t find to many that will believe that today.
    MATT. 17:11- And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
    MATT. 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

    Some day I hope you all get it. But do not wait to Long. Judgment is here anyday now. If you believe that Jesus coming is a pre – or mid trib then you are saying if that is true that Jesus could not come today.

    You all are still waiting on the 2nd. Coming that is not going to happen. I has already happened in Rev. 10 and Rev. 11 Proves it without a doubt.

    The Book of Revelation is written in Cycles of Visions explaining the Revelation of Jesus Christ in 6 ways that are saying the same thing but in Different ways. Its very, very obvious when you see it.

    Rev. Rev. 16 – See if it dont say the same thing as Rev. 11:15-19 The Coming of Judgment upon the World. The Saints are already in the Kingdom of God. We just got to kill our last enemy which is the “death of the Flesh” .

    Those who have been sealed will never have to die again. Only Once. Paul killed his old man daily. I have killed mine as well.

    I will try and explain this very clearly in future posts. Be open minded and let God bless you with the Revelation of Jesus Christ IN YOU and Here Right now.

    Im praying for you. —-bro ty

    • Regarding Revelation 11:17., and the above challenge;
      Looks like it is there to me?
      The transliterated “erchomai” – “to come, to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning” and the transliterated “ho ōn kai ho ēn kai ho erchomenos” – “He who is, and was, and is coming”!

      See for yourself, it is there in the Textus Receptus and in the original Greek New Testament Morph or Alexandrian Text.

      http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=11&v=15&t=KJV#conc/17

      • Look Tom,

        I agree with you that Judgement is next, but who and what will be judged First?
        Scripture would indicate that it will be the Church. re; 1 Peter 4:17.,
        “For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?”

        And Who is it that has been given all authority to make that judgement?
        Yeshua our King!

        This would imply that Yeshua will return in the clouds, (as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18., and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8.) to Judge the Church and take those that He accounts as being worthy. Re; Luke 21:36.
        “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

        Just saying.
        A.

    • Tom,

      YOU SAID:
      “Some day I hope you all get it. But do not wait to Long. Judgment is here anyday now. If you believe that Jesus coming is a pre – or mid trib then you are saying if that is true that Jesus could not come today.”

      I SAY:
      From this comment and many others you have made, it appears that the salvation of our souls depends on us having the correct view of eschatology. While I believe end times prophecy os important, I don’t believe it will determine where we will spend eternity.

      The salvation of our souls is determined by one thing only – our faith and trust in Jesus and the sacrifice He has made for us.

      YOU SAID:
      Rev. Rev. 16 – See if it dont say the same thing as Rev. 11:15-19 The Coming of Judgment upon the World. The Saints are already in the Kingdom of God. We just got to kill our last enemy which is the “death of the Flesh” .
      Those who have been sealed will never have to die again. Only Once. Paul killed his old man daily. I have killed mine as well.

      I SAY:
      We will not be judged because we held a certain view of prophecy. We agree with you that the saints are already in the Kingdom. But the kingdom has not reached its fulness, and peace does not fill the earth. All dominion, power and authority has NOT been placed under His feet, nor has death been destroyed.

      “But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. mThen the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death” ( I Corinthians 15).

      Just a few things for you to think about.

      YOU ARE CONFUSED ABOUT THE FEASTS OF THE LORD and the TRUMPETS. God gave His Feasts to be a TYPE and PATTERN of His plan of salvation from beginning to end. These three Feasts parallel the events of Israel from the Exodus to the Wilderness wanderings to the entrance of the remnant into to the Promised Land. These three Feasts and the Wilderness wanderings also parallel the plan of salvation as laid out in the Temple and its rituals, from Jesus’ first coming, through the Church Age and through the Second Coming and the Millennium.
      And finally this plan of salvation is paralleled in the Jewish Wedding rituals, with the Betrothal, the time of waiting, and the Wedding.
      All of these picture an order that must be followed. (By placing the Trumpet judgments during the Church Age, as you do, that order is disrupted. God is serious about His “types and shadows.” Remember Moses, when he struck the Rock a second time, instead of speaking to it?)
      ………….

      There were THREE Feasts of the Lord, times when all the men of Israel were to meet at the Temple. These “gatherings” to the “Temple” (Revelation 21:22) symbolize three Great Harvests of souls.

      “Three times a year all your men must appear before the Lord your God at the place he will choose: at the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the Festival of Weeks and the Festival of Tabernacles” (Deuteronomy 16).
      ……………

      FEAST OF UNLEAVENED BREAD

      The Feast of Unleavened Bread consisted of Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits. Of course these feasts celebrated redemption from slavery in Egypt for Israel. And we know that it symbolized our redemption from sin, the world, and Satan through the death of the Lamb.

      Passover symbolizes the death of Jesus the Lamb. It also symbolizes OUR death. “We are buried with Him in baptism” (Romans 6:4; Colossians 2:12).

      Unleavened Bread symbolizes the sinlessness of Jesus. It also symbolizes the removal of sin from OUR lives through Jesus’ death. “We died and our life is now hid with God in Christ” (Colossians 3:3). “Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry” (Colossians 3:5). “For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if you through the Spirit do put to death the deeds of the body, you shall live” (Romans 8:13).

      Firstfruits symbolizes the resurrection of Jesus. It also symbolizes the resurrection of our spirits. “We are raised up and seated with Him in heavenly places” (Ephesians 2:6).

      The activities in the Outer Court of the Temple symbolize this first Feast.
      At the Altar of sacrifice we died with Christ.
      At the Laver of Water we are cleansed made new daily with the “water of washing through the Word” (Ephesians 5:26).

      The Outer Court also symbolizes our BODIES. It was Jesus body that was sacrificed on the Cross. As Christians, we offer our bodies to God as “living sacrifices, holy and acceptable” (Romans 12:1).

      Jesus’ First Coming was also a BETROTHAL. His second coming will be for His WEDDING to the Bride, the Church.

      THE FEAST of UNLEAVENED BREAD WAS FULFILLED AT JESUS FIRST COMING
      ………………

      FEAST OF PENTECOST

      The Feast of Pentecost for the Israelites celebrated the giving of the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai.

      For the Christian, Pentecost symbolizes the giving of the Law of Christ, and the Holy Spirit, and the beginning of the Church as recorded in The Book of Acts.

      The Church Age in which we are living is symbolized by the wanderings of Israel in the Wilderness. It is only by faith that we enter the future Promised Land. (Hebrews 3:7-19).

      The activities in the Holy Place of the Temple symbolize this second Feast. The Holy Place also symbolizes our SOULS:

      The Seven-branched Menorah symbolizes Jesus and the Church as the “Light of the World.” He is the Vine, we are the Branches. Through the oil of the Holy Spirit, Jesus gives light to our souls, and we give light to the world.

      The Table of Showbread symbolizes Jesus as the Bead of Life. It is He Manna who feeds our souls.

      The Altar of Incense symbolizes the prayers of the saints. It is through our prayers that we enter into the Holy of Holies, through the Veil, the body of Christ. Through His body we may stand before the Throne of Mercy.

      THE FEAST OF PENTECOST IS BEING FULFILLED DURING THE CHURCH AGE. The Church Age ENDS at Jesus SECOND coming.
      …………..

      THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES

      The Feast of Tabernacles consists of Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles.

      The Feast of Trumpets symbolizes Israel’s call to war against Jericho AFTER the crossing of the Jordan to enter the Promised Land. For the Church, the Feast of Trumpets symbolizes the call to war against Mystery Babylon AFTER the crossing of the “Jordan” to enter our “Promised Land” the New Jerusalem. Are the seven angels who open the seven Seals, blow the seven Trumpets, and pour out the seven Bowls, the seven angels of the seven Churches? Will the Church have a part in God’s judgement?

      “Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world… Do you not know that we will judge angels?” (I corinthians 6:2).

      (The Church, the Bride of Christ will NOT be judged at Jesus Second Coming.

      “For it is for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” I Peter 4:17.

      The Church has already been judged and found guilty, but that guilt has been removed by the death and resurrection of Jesus.

      The Church will however stand before the judgement seat to give an account of our deeds.)

      The Day of Atonement symbolizes national redemption. At Jesus first coming He provided redemption to individuals through the Cross. Since that time He has been building a spiritual building made up of Living Stones (I Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:22). When the last living stone has been added to the Temple, Jesus the Capstone (Zechariah 4:7) will be set in place and He will come, destroy Mystery Babylon, the “kingdom of the world” (Daniel 2:34-35; Revelation 11:15) and will set up His Millennial Kingdom. On this future Day of Atonement, Jesus will descend from Heaven, His feet will touch the Mount of Olives, and Israel will “look on Him whom they pierced” and they will mourn as one mourns for an only Child. And they will finally say, “Blessed is He who come in the Name of the Lord” (Matthew23:39).
      In this is their Atonement made. It is through the sufferings of the Tribulation, the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, that He will be brought to His knees in repentance:

      In days to come Jacob will take root,
      Israel will bud and blossom
      and fill all the world with fruit.
      Has the Lord struck her
      as he struck down those who struck her?
      Has she been killed
      as those were killed who killed her?
      By warfare and exile you contend with her—
      with his fierce blast he drives her out,
      as on a day the east wind blows.
      By this, then, will Jacob’s guilt be atoned for,
      and this will be the full fruit of the removal of his sin…”
      (Isaiah 27:7-9).

      The Feast of Tabernacles for Israel symbolizes the 40 years in the Wilderness when God Tabernacles among them.
      The Feast of Tabernacles for the Church symbolizes the FINAL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the Church Age (which will last 40 Jubilee Years) when the “fulness of the Gentiles has come in” (Romans 11:25).

      The Feast of Firstfruits celebrates the Barley Harvest, Jesus as the firstfruits.
      The Feast of Pentecost celebrates the Wheat Harvest, the Church.
      The Feast of Tabernacles celebrates the Fruit and Olive Harvest, the 144,000 firstfruits and the Great Multitude who come out of the Great Tribulation (Revelation 7).

      THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES WILL BE FULFILLED AT JESUS SECOND COMING

      ……………

      The THREE FEASTS and the THREE ROOMS of the Temple symbolized the THREE stages of SALVATION.

      At Jesus first coming (symbolized by the Outer Court and the Feast of Passover) we ARE SAVED from the PENALTY of sin. Our SPIRITS ARE REDEEMED. We are raised up and are seated with Him in heavenly places.
      This is JUSTIFICATION?

      During the Church Age (symbolized by the Holy Place and Pentecost) individuals and the Church as a whole are BEING SAVED from the POWER of sin. Our SOULS ARE BEING REDEEMED. This is SANCTIFICATION.

      At Jesus second coming (symbolized by the Holy of Holies and the Feast of Tabernacles) we WILL BE SAVED from the PRESENCE of sin. Our BODIES WILL BE REDEEMED. This is GLORIFICATION, when we will receive a body like that of the resurrected Christ.
      ………….

      THE SPRING FEASTS SYMBOLIZE JESUS’ FIRST COMING? THE FALL FEASTS SYMBOLIZE JESUS SEOND COMING. The Church Age is represented by the “summer” between the two comings. The second coming CANNOT happen until the Church Age is over and the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.
      So Tom, you CAN’T separated the Feast of Trumpets from the Day of Atonement and Tabernacles. You CANNOT place the Trumpets during the 1900+ years between the two comings of Jesus. Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles are all ONE FEAST which will be fulfilled in one short span of time. Just as Passover, Unleavened Bread and Firstfruits were fulfilled at Jesus FIRST COMING, so Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles will be fulfilled at Jesus SECOND COMING.

      The Seven Trumpets of Revelation CANNOT blow until the LAST Living Stone has been placed in the Temple.

      Jesus has NOT returned yet.

      “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
      They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back IN THE SAME WAY YOU HAVE SEEN HIM GO into heaven” (Acts 1).

      Did Jesus return in 70 A.D. IN THE SAME WAY [THE DISCIPLES] [HAD] SEEN HIM GO into Heaven?

      At Jesus first coming he provided Individual redemption.

      At His second coming he will provide National redemption.

      At Jesus first coming He called out a people to be His very own. At His second coming He will remove His people from this earth and bring judgement on the world. Just as Noah was raised up above God’s judgement, so the Church will be raised up above God’s judgement. Just as God provided a means of escape for Lot and his family on earth during His judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah, so God will provide a means of escape from His judgement for those who are saved during the Tribulation and remain on the earth.
      …………

      The Feast of Trumpets is a call to war.

      “Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. Have seven priests carry TRUMPETS of rams’ horns in front of the ark. On the SEVENTH day, march around the city SEVEN times, with the priests blowing the TRUMPETS. When you hear them sound a long blast on the TRUMPETS, have the whole army give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the army will go up, everyone straight in” (Joshua 6).

      The story of the conquest of Jericho is symbolic of the conquest of Babylon in the Book of Revelation. Each year for six years an angel will blow one Trumpet of God’s judgement on an unrepentant world. In the seventh year the Seventh Trumpet will be blown and God’s Seven Bowls of wrath will be poured out resulting in the destruction of “the kingdom of this world” becoming “the Kingdom of the Lord and His Christ, and He will reign forever and forever” (Revelation 11:15).

      …………..

      Many Christians, such as yourself, have a mistaken belief that prophecy is about a prediction and a fulfillment. It is not. It is about patterns. God uses past historical events as foreshadows of future events. For example the passages in the Old Testament that speak of the judgement and destruction of Babylon have multiple fulfillments. There was a literal fulfillment in which the Babylonian Empire was conquered by Cyrus the Great. But there will be a greater fulfillment in the future when Mystery Babylon will be conquered by an even Greater “Cyrus,” Jesus the Messiah.

      “This is what the Lord says—
      your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
      I am the Lord,
      the Maker of all things,
      who stretches out the heavens,
      who spreads out the earth by myself,
      who foils the signs of false prophets
      and makes fools of diviners,
      who overthrows the learning of the wise
      and turns it into nonsense,
      who carries out the words of his servants
      and fulfills the predictions of his messengers,
      who says of Jerusalem, ‘It shall be inhabited,’
      of the towns of Judah, ‘They shall be rebuilt,’
      and of their ruins, ‘I will restore them,’
      who says to the watery deep, ‘Be dry,
      and I will dry up your streams,’
      who says of CYRUS, ‘He is MY SHEPHERD
      AND WILL ACCOMPLISH ALL THAT I PLEASE;
      he will say of Jerusalem, “Let it be rebuilt,”
      and of the temple, “Let its foundations be laid.”

      “This is what the Lord says—
      the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
      Concerning things to come,
      do you question me about my children,
      or give me orders about the work of my hands?
      It is I who made the earth
      and created mankind on it.
      My own hands stretched out the heavens;
      I marshaled their starry hosts.
      I will raise up CYRUS IN MY RIGHTEOUSNESS:
      I will make all his ways straight.
      HE WILL REBUILD MY CITY
      and set my exiles free,
      but not for a price or reward,
      says the Lord Almighty.”
      (Isaiah 45)
      ……………

      The Ancient Jewish Wedding and the Return of our Bridegroom King

      STAGE ONE

      Step One: Selection of the Bride

      In John 15:16, Jesus said, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain.”

      In ancient Israel, brides were usually chosen by the Father of the Bridegroom. He would send His most trusted servant to search for a bride for his son.
      We have not seen Jesus, but God’s servant, the Holy Spirit, has revealed Him
      to us.

      ” Whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory” (I Peter 1:8).

      Step Two: Price of the Bride

      Brides in Bible times were purchased. The price was paid to the father of the bride, both to compensate Him for the loss of a worker and to show him how much the Bridegroom loved and valued the Bride.
      We, as the Bride of Messiah, have also been purchased with a price. A very high price — the blood of Jesus. His very own blood shed upon the Cross was the price He paid for His Bride.

      “Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or
      gold, from our aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot” (I Peter 1:18,19).

      “We were bought at a price, so do not become slaves of men” (1 Corinthians 7:23).

      1 Corinthians 6: 19,20: “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore, glorify God in your body and in your spirit which are God’s.”

      Step Three: Betrothal/Ketubah

      The ancient Jewish marriage ceremony consisted of two main parts, beginning with the betrothal or engagement.

      The betrothal is much like our engagement today, but with a much greater sense of commitment. During the betrothal the couple is actually entering into a covenant. A covenant in Bible times was serious, final, sealed in blood and legally binding. Once a couple entered into the covenant of betrothal, they were legally married in all aspects except for the physical consummation of the marriage.

      At the betrothal ceremony, a marriage contract, or Ketubah, was presented to the father of the bride. The Ketubah consists of all the bridegroom’s promises to his bride. The bride cherishes her Ketubah.

      We, too, have a Ketubah from our Bridegroom. Our marriage contract is God’s Word!
      Our Ketubah, God’s Word, shows us all we are entitled to as the Bride of Christ. All the promises of God’s Word are for us. As the Bride of Christ, we are entitled to them — they are part of our Ketubah.

      (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

      Step Four: The Bride’s Consent

      Although a bride was selected for the bridegroom, she still had a choice.

      In Genesis 24:57 and 58, Rebekah was asked, concerning Isaac: “Will you go with this man?”. She said, “I will go.” She gave her consent — her “I do.”

      Step Five: The Cup of the Covenant

      After the terms of the Ketubah were accepted, a cup of wine was shared to seal the marriage covenant. The second cup of wine would be shared many months later during the marriage ceremony. The cup that Jesus took at His last Passover on earth was the cup of the new marriage covenant with His Bride.

      In Luke 22:20, Jesus said, “This cup is the New Covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.”

      In Matthew 26:29, Jesus said, “I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

      Jesus is speaking of the second cup that the Bride of Christ will share with Him one glorious day at the third part of our marriage ceremony.

      Step Six: Gifts for the Bride

      The Betrothal included the giving of gifts by the Bridegroom to his Bride.

      Many times a Bridegroom gave a coin or other object of value to his betrothed bride. It would always be something special that would help her remember him while they were apart. (Luke 15:8,9).

      Today we have the engagement ring. This is a symbol of love and commitment.When the bride-to-be looks at her ring, she is reminded of the one who gave her the gift.

      God’s Holy Spirit is our engagement ring.

      “Having believed you were marked in Him with a Seal, the promised Holy Spirit…” (Ephesians 1:13, 14).

      Through Jesus, we, the bride, receive many gifts: Forgiveness, eternal life, fruit of the Spirit, gifts of the Spirit, and many more.

      Step Seven: Mikvah

      Brides in ancient Israel, as well as brides in Israel today, experience a mikvah prior to her wedding. The word ‘mikvah’ means a pool of living water which was used for ritual purification. This immersion in water is part of their physical and spiritual preparation for the wedding ceremony. The mikvah represents a separation from the old life to a new life.

      Mark 16:16 reads, “He who believes and is baptized (goes to the mikvah) will be saved; but he who does not believe, will be condemned.”

      The Bride of Christ also goes to the Living Water of the mikvah. When we, as believers in Jesus, are immersed in water, it is a sign of the separation from an old life to a new life.
      “Old things pass away, all things become new.”

      All of these steps of STAGE ONE in the Jewish Wedding were accomplished at Jesus First Coming.

      STAGE TWO

      Step One: Departure of the Groom

      Once the marriage covenant was sealed, the bridegroom left his bride to go to his father’s house to prepare a wedding chamber. He would be gone for up to twelve months.

      Jesus said “In My Father’s house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:2-3).

      Our Bridegroom has gone to prepare a wedding chamber for His bride.

      In Matthew 9:15, Jesus said, “Can the friends of the Bridegroom mourn as long as the Bridegroom is with them? But the days will come when the Bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast.”

      Tom, you made a comment

      YOU SAID: BLOW YE THE TRUMPET IN ZION , sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
      As John the Baptist was the “Last Trumpet” for Heralding in Jesus Christ.

      I SAY: Tell me where the Bible says John the Baptist was the “Last Trumpet.”

      Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples FAST NOT?
      And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and THEN shall they fast.

      The Trumpet calls for a FAST and a SOLEMN assembly. The First Coming of Jesus was not a “solemn fast.”

      He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. (John 3)

      The “solemn fast” refers to the Day of Atonement. It is a fall Feast of the Lord. As I hope you know, the Spring Feasts symbolize events fulfilled at Jesus’ first coming. The Fall Feasts symbolize events fulfilled at Jesus’ second coming.

      The Day of Atonement symbolizes Jesus second coming when He descends and His feet stand on the Mount of Olives. (Zechariah 10) At that time Israelites saved during the Tribulation will “look on Him whom they pierced and will mourn as one mourns for an only Son.” ( Zechariah 14). It will be a “solemn fast for Israel.

      This Fast will occur after the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation. It will be a day of “darkness and gloom” for those who reject the Messiah.

      “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
      A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.”

      Step Two: The Consecrated Bride

      While we wait for the return of our Bridegroom/King, we need to stay faithful, watchful and spiritually alert. This is the hour to pray and fast, for the Bridegroom has been “taken away.”

      1 Peter 4:7 says, “But the end of all things is at hand; therefore, be serious and watchful in your prayers.”

      The Jewish bride was set apart, consecrated, separated unto her bridegroom — the one who purchased her. So, while waiting for his return, she was to stay faithful. It was probably easy at first. But when his return was delayed, the temptation would be great.
      After a while, the bride may even start to question his return.

      2 Peter 3:3,4 reads: “Scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, ‘Where is the promise of His coming?’”

      We are His consecrated bride, awaiting His return. We cannot fall into temptation. We must be ready at all times for the return of our Bridegroom/King!

      During the Church Age STAGE TWO is being fulfilled.

      STAGE THREE

      Step One: Return of the Bridegroom

      Mark 13:32: “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”

      Jewish bridegrooms usually came for their brides late at night, near the midnight hour. The sound of the shofar would break the silence of the night and there would be great shouting and dancing in the streets. We can see this in the parable of the ten virgins:

      “And at midnight, a cry was heard; Behold, go out to meet him.”

      In the New Testament, “Midnight” is symbolic of the Tribulation, a time of darkness when the light of God no longer shines.

      As a thief in the night, our Bridegroom will call us to arise and meet Him in the air. We will hear a shout and the sound of the shofar. It will happen quickly. We must be ready.

      Matthew 24:27 says, “For as the lightning comes from the East and flashes to the West, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.”

      “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words” (I Thessalonians 4:16-18).

      Step Two: The Huppah

      The second half of the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony, or huppah, is also called the “hometaking.” The original meaning of the huppah was “room” or “covering.”

      The huppah of ancient times was a special room built in the bridegroom’s father’s home. The room was eventually replaced by a bridal canopy. The huppah symbolized the new home to which the bridegroom would take his bride. The bride and bridegroom were escorted to the bridal chamber where they would be alone for seven days. The spiritual parallel to the huppah for the bride of Christ begins as we are lifted up off the earth to be taken to our heavenly wedding chamber where we will spend ‘one week’ (seven years), with our Bridegroom/King. While the Bride of Christ is in the Bridal Chamber with
      Jesus, the rest of the world will be in a time of great tribulation.

      Isaiah 26:20-21 tells us of this time: “Come my people, enter our chambers and shut the door behind you, hide yourself as it were, for a little moment until the indignation is past.
      For behold the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity.”

      While the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, the bride of Christ will be hidden away with her Bridegroom.

      Step Three: The Final Step — The Marriage Supper

      Following the seven days in the huppah or bridal chamber, the bride and bridegroom joined their guests for a joyful marriage feast. Playing of music and dancing was a regular part of the celebration.

      “And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, ‘Alleluia! For the Lord
      God Omnipotent reigns! Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready. And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.’ Then he said to me, Write: ‘Blessed are those who are called to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb!’ And he said to me ‘These are the true sayings of God.'” (Revelation 19:6-9).

      The Feast of Tabernacles is also known as the “Season of our Joy.”
      Just like the ancient Jewish wedding, there will be shouts of joy and dancing The Bride will dance for joy with her Bridegroom/King, Jesus.

      We will rule and reign with Him for 1,000 years during the millennium!

      “And the spirit and the bride say Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts, Come; and whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely” (Revelation 2:17).

      “‘Surely I am coming quickly.’ Even so, Come Lord Jesus, Come!” (Revelation 22:20).
      ………………

      Tell me, how do you determined which passages are to be interpreted literally and which are to be interpreted symbolically?

      For example:

      See, the day of the Lord is coming
      —a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
      to make the land desolate
      and destroy the sinners within it.
      The stars of heaven and their constellations
      will not show their light.
      The rising sun will be darkened
      and the moon will not give its light.
      I will punish the world for its evil,
      the wicked for their sins.
      I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
      and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
      I will make people scarcer than pure gold,
      more rare than the gold of Ophir.
      Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
      and the earth will shake from its place
      at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
      in the day of his burning anger.

      Is this passage symbolic or literal?

      You say that God’s vengeance was against Israel in 70 A.D. And that that was the fulfillment.

      Western Protestants interpret prophecy in one of four different ways: Preterism, Historicism, Idealism, or Futurism… Four or five basic schools of thought have lent themselves to several offshoots. To a Western Gentile mind, one of these four methods, (or a derivative of) is the correct view of all Biblical prophecy. However a Jew in the first century, as Jesus was Himself, would have seen all four simultaneously. Western ideas of prophecy involve prediction and fulfillment. The Hebrew idea of prophecy is a pattern that is repeated, multiple fulfillments with one ultimate fulfillment. Each of the multiple fulfillments is both a type of, and a lesson on, the ultimate fulfillment.

      We tend to assume that all types (and prophecy) in the Old Testament were fulfilled once and for all in the New, but this is far from the truth. Jesus was a first century Jewish rabbi who taught the same way other rabbis did, making it important that we try and understand how the Jews interpreted the Bible. We can’t apply “western” methods of interpretation to an ancient Jewish book.

      The basic four or five schools of thought have lent themselves to several different interpretations of prophecy, especially regarding the book of Revelation).

      Preterism The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, meaning “past”. It holds that some or all of the Biblical prophecies concerning the Last Days (or End Times) refer to events which actually happened in the first century after Christ’s birth. This theory argues that all (or most for “partial” Preterists) Bible prophecy has been fulfilled; it states that nothing remains on the prophetic calendar

      Historicism teaches that the Book of Revelation is a pre-written history of the Church from the time of its writing to the future Second Comin of Christ… the Church Age and the Tribulation are the same. Historicists believe that the Seal, Trumpet, and Bowl judgments are being, or have been, fulfilled by different events which have taken place throughout Church history. In other words, one of the seal judgments may have been the rise of Islam and their attempt to conquer Christianity. Or, one of the trumpet judgments may have been the rise of Napoleon and his conquest of Europe. This view is subscribed to by Kingdom Now advocates.

      Idealism says the contents of the book of Revelation do not relate to any historical events, but symbolizes the ongoing struggle between good and evil during the church age until Christ returns. It reminds Christians of the glory to come and the judgment of their persecutors, and is thus designed to encourage them during times of persecution. This view ignores the fact that apocalyptic writing like Revelation generally describes actual events in history. Also the clear language of the text says that Jesus will show him John “what must take place next” (Revelation 4:1).

      Futurism states that these things are going to happen in the Last Days and the end result of the Great Tribulation is the destruction of ecclesiastical and political Babylon. Then Christ will return with the church and set up His Millennial Kingdom.

      To a Western Gentile mind, one of these four methods, (or a derivative of) is the correct view of all Biblical prophecy. However, a Jew in the first century, as Jesus was Himself, would have seen all four simultaneously. Western ideas of prophecy involve prediction and fulfillment. The Hebrew idea of prophecy is a pattern that is repeated, multiple fulfillments with one ultimate fulfillment. Each of the multiple fulfillments is both a type of, and a lesson on, the ultimate fulfillment.

      The Prophecies of Revelation.. Past or Future?
      Again much controversy has centered on the prophecies of Revelation.. with many [Preterists like you] believing that most or all of the prophecies were fulfilled in the first century with the destruction of the Temple and the devastation of Jerusalem. Other believe [Futurists] that most or all of the prophecies are yet to be fulfilled. Both of these ignore the twofold nature of Hebrew prophecy… which is not a one time event but a pattern that repeats itself over and over again, until it’s ultimate fulfillment.

      In both the beginning and the end of Revelation there are statements that indicate impending fulfillment.

      “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John” (Revelation 1:1).

      “And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass” (Revelation 22:6).

      However it is impossible for all of Revelation to have already come to pass in 70 AD. since among other details, Revelation 3:10 tells us that future time of trial will come upon ALL the world, NOT ONLY upon Israel. (Also See Revelation 13:7,8,12,14,16).

      “Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the WHOLE WORLD, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

      The Jewish war was a time of great trouble for Israel, but did not affect the other nations of the world and certainly does not match the descriptions of the great tribulation which point to a world-wide time of distress. The Bible repeatedly states that the Great Tribulation is a unique time of trouble such as has never been before and such as will never be in the future. Consider the following verses..

      “…such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be”; (Matthew 24:21).

      “…a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time” (Daniel 12:1)

      “…for that day was great, so that none is like it” (Jeremiah 30:7).

      In any case 70 A.D. was probably NOT the worst time of trouble that Israel has ever experienced. The slaughtering of many millions of Jews by Hitler during World War II was perhaps even more atrocious.

      Additionally Revelation 13 tells us about a political leader so powerful that no one can make war with him, the forced worship of this man by ALLthose who dwell on the earth, a required “mark”received on the right hand or in the forehead, and those not having this mark being unable to buy and sell. None of these things have been fulfilled yet.

      The Prophecies of Matthew 24
      Matthew 24, has always been a very difficult chapter for many people to understand, much of the confusion arising from the failure to see that the disciples asked and Jesus answered two questions: one, concerning the fall of Jerusalem; the other, concerning His second coming.

      Some have come to the conclusion that there is a fairly straightforward division of Matthew 24. Verses 24:4-34 have to do with the “generation” that was contemporary with the Lord and the destruction of Jerusalem, while verses 35-51 allude to the end of days. However this is not true. The events outlined in Matthew 2, as well as parallel verses in Mark and Luke, exactly parallel the Seven Seals. Jesus’ description of the “beginning of sorrows,” the “great tribulation,” and His post-Tribulation coming, complete with the cosmic sign, are fulfilled in the same sequence in Revelation 6.

      Therefore Jesus was not merely referring to the terrible destruction of Jerusalem which took place a few years later, but was warning about catastrophic events much further away… The Great Tribulation. This is further reinforced by the fact that Luke 23:30 and Revelation 6:16 describe people’s reaction to the terrors around them in almost identical language.

      “But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For behold, the days are coming, in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us” (Luke 23:28-30).

      “…and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [Revelation 6:16]

      Preterists often use Jesus statement “this generation will not pass away until all is fulfilled” to prove that all of Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. The word “generation” used by Jesus is the word “genea” which can mean:

      2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
      a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy.

      In other words, the Jewish people will not cease to exist until Matthew 24 is fulfilled. Since Jewish people still exist Matthew 24 has not yet been fulfilled.
      ……………..

      The Book of Hebrews teaches us that the history of Israel is a type and shadow, and a lesson and a warning for the Church. The events that have happened to Israel are a picture or a shadow of the future. The events that happened in 70 A.D. were only a foreshadow, a partial fulfillment of events that will happen in the future. In 70A.D. Israel the Harlot was judged for her rejection of her Messiah. Her Temple was destroyed and she was sent into exile among the Gentile Nations. But God promised that there would come a day when the Dry Bones would come back to life and God would breathe into her new Life (Ezekiel 37:1-14) In the future, during the seven year Tribulation, Mystery Babylon, the false Church will be judged for her rejection of her Messiah, the Remnant of Israel will be saved as promised in Daniel 9 and Romans 11:26, and the world will be judged for her iniquities.

      Then, the spiritual Kingdom of God, the New Jerusalem (the Living Stones that have been raised up and seated with Him in heavenly places) will descend to the earth, where Jesus and His Bride will reign over all the survivors from those nations that attacked Jerusalem in the Battle of Armageddon.

      “The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name… Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The Lord will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles” (Zechariah 14).

  68. The Trumpets explained further.

    The Trumpets – Time of judgment – etc. Lev. 23:23 — Rosh-Hashanah
    The day of Atonement was just 10 days later – after Trumpets sounded
    Day of Atonement was a Supreme act of National atonement for sin – 10th. Day 7 month
    1. 7 month of the year – the new year – the traditional new year – But Passover was made their New year. So it is not exactly their new year. But it is in the 7 month of the year.
    2. The Lord God is always a God of New Beginnings.
    3. Not much in the bible about it – but it is a Holy Day, and Important day, just it shall be a day of “Blowing of trumpets”. WHY
    4. Why would God have a day for his people to blow trumpets.
    5. Why would that be Holy. — Heb says a day of — ru-hah –a shout – meaning a day of shouting, day of blasting, it’s a war cry, it’s and alarm, the cry of joy, battle cry, a Trumpet blast usely a signal for and to the people.
    6. Everyone Gathered to Jerusalem – Why trumpets sounded
    7. Joshua 6:3 – When an Army advanced – they blew trumpets in front to scare the enemy. And to say we are coming.
    It’s the sounding of an Advancing Kingdom.
    1. An like Jericho – if you heard that sound
    A. You wanted to be the kingdom that was advancing.
    B. The Walls is coming down.
    C. It’s not a good day for the enemy.
    The People of God are on the Move
    1.2 Sam. 6:14 – The trumpet hear is the sound of joy.
    A. 20th. Century at New years eve.
    B. What do we do. We blow on things and make noise.
    C. And celebrate a New coming year.
    1 Kings 1:33:34 – Trumpets announced the reign of the Kings 1. 1. The changing of the guard.
    2. Another King is being crowned King over Israel.
    A. Trumpets are a Royal sounding of Kingships being changed etc.
    B. The Kings would be “heralded” with trumpets
    Joel 2:11-15 – Coming together –
    Isa. 58 lift up your voice like a Trumpet, Loud, urgent, piecing sound.
    1. Eze. 33:1-6- The Watchman – 5 fold ministry – A Warning sound – Can be a National alarm,are a city alarm,Tornado, sounds, fire alarm
    2. Jere. 4:19 – A sound of trembling, of the heart and soul of man. Is the trumpet blowing and the people not trembling. The Lord has His day of blowing the trumpet.
    Exo.19:16 – This is a heavy message – preparing for the Holy 1. 1. Man and God meet. And it would be Heralded by Trumpets.
    A. Thunders, Lighting, smoke = clouds.
    Every Month they would blow the Trumpet to mark a New Month
    1. So Trumpets marked time – 2. The coming of a kingdom 3. sound of joy and worship 4. The coronation of a King and the Heralding of His reign 5. Calling people together 6. It cried out like the Voice of a prophet 7. It sounded the alarm of danger 8. it was the coming of the Holy Union and meeting with God and man.
    There is a message going out at every sounding of Trumpet
    1.The significance of these messages – We are just coming out of the Harvest summer. And they hadn’t had a holiday in a long time. And all of a sudden you was preparing for this HOLY MONTH of Tissery – So Holy in the Calendar it has Yom-Kippor the day the high priest would enter in – The feast of Tabernacles – and the Trumpets.
    It was so Holy You had to be ready for this month
    1.That blasting was saying get ready – forget what you are doing – forget your field – forget your flocks – forget how much you made – or how much you didn’t make –
    The most important thing in your life-the Relationship with the Lord 1. Prepare to come before the Lord – Draw near to the Lord Now – PREPARE TO MEET GOD = JUDGMENT AND WRATH HAS HAS COME TO THE NATIONS. The Dead to be judged. Destroy the earth.
    2. And the Trumpets sounded and they awoke you to the above messages = thunders of God. This is the Time to AWAKE out of sleep.
    3. Ye had 10 days to examine yourself before Yom-Kippor
    4. Your hearts, minds, to prepare to enter into the Holiest of Holies through the High Priest Jesus.

    5. REV. 11:15-19 The Kingdoms of this world are become the Kingdoms of our Lord, And of his Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

    6. REV. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the Ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
    7. REVELATION 4:5 – And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
    8. REVELATION 8:5- And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
    9. REVELATION 11:19- And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
    10. REVELATION 16:18- And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

    1. Earthquake REVELATION 6:12– And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    2. REVELATION 11:13- And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    God bless — Bro. ty

  69. Tom,

    What you are not taking into consideration is that everything that John is seeing is in the far future. Therefore, when we read:

    “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

    It is being spoken from a future time frame. John speaks of it from a present tense time frame as he is seeing the visions. The events that John is seeing in heaven, which will take place on the earth, are events that will happen in the future. In other words, the vision of the Lamb taking the scroll out of the right hand of the Father hasn’t happened yet. Jesus has not yet received the scroll and therefore, has not yet opened the first seal. These are things that are to come. Anyone who knows the word of God during that time, when they observe that seven year covenant being made, then they will know that the first seal has been opened, because that rider on the white horse who goes out to conquer and is bent on conquest is that antichrist who conquers and makes war against the great tribulation saints for that last 3 1/2 years. What you are reading in Revelation are future events that are still to take place. To be clear, that announcement that the kingdoms of the world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ has not yet taken place, but is a coming future state of the world.

    From the vision time frame, John speaks of it in the present tense as John is witnessing these things, but in real time, they are future events. The visions, that is, all that the angel showed him are things, from John’s time frame, which were to happen in the far future. That being said, I don’t believe that there are currently twenty elders present in heaven at this time and won’t be there until after the resurrecction and catching away takes place. Likewise, that angel that yells with a load voice asking “who is worthy to open the scroll” hasn’t done that yet. The scene in heaven is one which is yet to take place. From chapter four on is just a preview, if you will, of what is gong to take place in heaven and on earth, which is still future. The error that you are making is that you are reading the events of revelation in the past tense, that is, as events that have already taken place, which is the reason for you confusion. You need to read the events of Revelation, specifically from chapter four on, as visions of future events.

  70. Tom,
    Okay, here is where I believe you have misunderstood the language.
    Revelation 1:1. is true.
    As rendered in the King James it reads;

    “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:”

    So what is “revelation”? As I have stated to you before, the English word “revelation” was translated from the Greek “ἀποκάλυψις”, transliterated as “apokalypsis”.
    It is defined by Strong’s as being, “1) laying bare, making naked. 2) a disclosure of truth, instruction. a) concerning things before unknown. b) used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all. 3) manifestation, appearance.”

    It is defined by Vines as, “Appear, Appearing: literally, “an uncovering, unveiling” (apo, “from,” kalupto, “to hide, cover”), denotes “a revelation, or appearing”

    Now this “revelation was given to John, approximately between the years of 70 AD to 95 AD.
    Therefore if the Word of God is true, (which I wholeheartedly believe that it is), the Book of Revelation would contain NO information prior to 70 AD. No history at all prior to at least 70 AD. This is clearly what the word itself means to “reveal something that was previously unknown”!

    God didn’t give Yeshua a “message” of what had occurred in the past, for if He did John could have written the Greek word “ἀγγελία”, transliterated as “aggelia”, (Strong’s 31), which is defined as, “1) message, announcement, news. 2) a proclamation, command, order.”
    God gave Him a Revelation, (of information that was previously unknown) to show His followers, things that must shortly come to pass, or in other words, “things that will occur in the future” from the time that John received this vision.

    Just to substantiate the truth in that, Revelation 1:3., states;

    “Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.”

    The Greek word “προφητεία”, transliterated as “prophēteia” has been translated into the English “prophecy” above. “Prophēteia”, (Strong’s 4394) is defined as, “1) prophecy. a) a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events. b) Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets. 1) of the prediction of events relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due. 2) of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets. 3) the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the Gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of God.”

    To believe that any “history” is mentioned at all within the book, is literally to deny and discard the Word of God and the “Revelation” that He gave to Yeshua our Lord to show His servants and followers things that will shorty happen in the future?

    Praise be unto Yeshua and His soon Return.
    Amen.

  71. Tom,

    What is written regarding the trumpets, is exactly what is going to happen.

    First Trumpet:
    A third of the earth and trees are literally going to be burnt up. If you have a third of the earth being burnt up, then you have an unknown amount of fatalities as well, because I am pretty sure that there will be a whole lot of people within that third.

    Second Trumpet:
    Something like a huge mountain (Asteroid/meteorite) is going to plunge into one of the oceans, which is going to cause gigantic waves, which in turn will destroy all of the creatures and ships in that body of water equaling a third over all the earth. What is not mentioned are the resulting fatalities, for you cannnot have a third of the ships destroyed and not have fatalities. If you have these gigantic waves destroying all the ships, then you also have all of the cities, towns and villages on the coast and inland of every continent that sits on that body of water that will be destroyed producing even more fatalities.

    Third Trumpet:
    A great star blazing like a torch and falling on a third of the rivers and springs of water (fresh water) and many people dying from drinking the waters. My personal belief is that, where John is seeing a blazing torch may be a nuclear rocket, because a torch is exactly what a rocket would look like to John seeing a vision of it comng down to earth nose first. The waters being made bitter may be in reference to the nuclear contamination, which would explain people dying from drinking it. This is Just my personal observation.

    Fourth Trumpet:
    A third of the sun, moon and stars are being struck so that they will give off a third less light during the day and night. In this plague it is the sun, moon and stars themselves that are being darkened by God and not due to pollution or anything else in the atmosphere, for John has already demonstrated that he is able to descern between the two. The darkening of these may be setting the stage, so-to-speak, for the next three trumpets which are woes and are demonic in nature.

    Fifth Trumpet/First Woe:
    An angel opens the Abyss releasing the demonic beings that look like locusts and horses prepared for battle, with faces resembling mens faces, hair like women’s hair, teeth like lions teeth and tails and stings like scorpions who will literally be tormenting the inhabitants of the earth with those stings for five months. They also have a king over them, who is the angel of the Abyss (Destroyer) and he will also come out at that time and will eventually kill the two witnesses.

    Six Trumpet/Second Woe:
    Four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates will be released and will gather 200 million demonic beings from the Abyss, which will have just previously opened and will kill a third of mankind via the fire, smoke and sulfer that proceeds from those demonic horses mouths.

    Seventh Trumpet/Third Woe:
    War in heaven, Michael and his angels cast Satan and his angels down to the earth, where they will wreak havoc upon the earth and sea until the Lord comes 3 1/2 years later.

    These events are future, literal events and will take place just as they are written. This is why Jesus said that this will be a time of great distress such as was not from the beginning, til now or shall ever be. If you look at these events and receive them as being literal, then you can understand how terrible those times are going to be. Your version makes them a K-mart version in comparison.

  72. To all
    I just cannot believe you all even read my posts with the comments you send back in. Your answer is always in the Future tense. Then if all these great events as you call them are in the future. Then you would have to believe that Jesus cannot come today. According to your theories. So the Rapture had to be invented by your Theologian’s not Prophets to make sense to it. Just as the Sanhedrin rose up during the time of Babylonian slavery. They went into Babylon with Prophets and great men chosen of God to lead them to victory every time under the Judges. They came out of Babylon with a lot of Babylon Education not Revelation. This is why Babylon has never died Since Genesis 11. And God hates it. Rev. 17- 18 – Israel picked up their system of worship and educating certain men to Rule over the people by Knowledge and Education. They came out of Babylon with Rabbi’s, Head men, with Systems of men.

    1. When you all can understand the O.T. you will start seeing and understanding the N.T. HEB. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
    2. That is your KEY to opening up the Mystery of Jesus Christ in the 7 church’s, The 7 Angel messengers, 3. The 7 trumpets, the 7feast days, the two prophets cause God is not leaving out the Prophets in this end time.
    4. The Nations, the Beast, the Dragon, the Serpent are all found in the O.T. PLAINLY
    5. There are 5 or 6 enemies against the 7 Church ages. Jesus is telling John to expound on each and every enemy we have to fight in this Battle to OVERCOME them all. Smyrna only one that was not reprimanded by Jesus.

    1. Have you considered John the Baptist being the forerunner of Christ = A breach PROPHET
    2. His Message closed out the O.T and was the Last Trumpet call to His generation. Ushering in of a N.T era. of Messiah being there on earth. Who believed it. Like a thief In the night.
    3. A great corner was turned. If you did not turn that corner with His Message and start looking for Jesus Message then you ended up in a LOST CONDITION along with Judgment coming on you. Just gazing in the Word does not bring you a Revelation of Life. You heart has got to be in the right approach to receive of God’s Spiritual blessing and mysteries. You do not have to be smart just open to truth.

    1. Those Jews looked and gazed upon Jesus – same as in Moses day. And turned back around and could not except Moses, and the same thing Happened again in John‘s day. The Jew’s gazed at Christ and yet called Him and imposter and a devil.
    2. Tried to kill all his influence that the common people could believed in.
    3. Creating Heb.6:4-6 making “it impossible” for them to “come into” the real deliverer- cause of unbelief. 4. Paul used the Jew’s as an EXAMPLE of Doubt and unbelief.
    5. Abraham’s church split up – the one side loving Sodom and Egypt.
    6. But Abraham went to the “Feast of Tabernacles’ when “God came down” and eat with him. WHO KNEW WHAT HAPPENED in that day. Who saw Noah’s day. Abraham and Noah and Moses all Prophets with a DIFFERENT MESSAGE IN EACH AGE. Trying to get their brothers in and escape the wrath to come.
    7. Then here comes John the Baptist preaching against Moses they thought.
    8. ALL THINGS ARE NOT THE WAY IT’S SEEN — IN MOST EVERY NEW AGE

    NOW IN THE 3RD. EXODUS IT’S THE SAME WAY.
    1. Now in our day the 3rd. Exodus is happening, and if you just want to gaze in and call it a fanaticism.
    2. Then go ahead and be willfully ignorant.

    THE TRUMPETS ARE THE KEYS TO IT ALL- HEB. 13:8 SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, FOREVER.
    JOHNS MESSAGE WAS THE LAST TRUMPET TO OPEN UP A N.T AGE — SAME TODAY
    1. After Trumpets was over the Next was Yom Kippor the Judgment. If they in Moses Day and Jesus Day Noah’s day, Abel’s day, Abraham’s day etc. If those generations or ages they missed HEARING their trumpets they would have died lost.
    2. Paul said “Ignorance on the Part of Israel had happened” HELLO – It will be the same in this age. Sudden destruction could come today. And everybody sitting back waiting on a 2nd. Coming or a rapture.
    THE RAPTURE IN THE O.T. – Moses day – The church got set free from the Serpent Pharaoh and his Evil Beastly Nation of Idols and Pageantry. Serving gods of all kinds. And the “real” believers crossed over the Jordan of death to the Promised land.
    1. Somebody said Moses did not make it either then. CARNALITY at its best – The world thinks JESUS didn’t make it either. Make what — Have a “Resurrection into Heaven“. Cause HE was Eternal life. And Moses had Jesus Christ in him. They could not find Moses Body either.

    WHO IS JESUS COMING FOR IN THE 2nd. COMING
    1. He has already Come and ye did not know it. Is he coming to catch -up your flesh man or your Spirit man. Flesh and blood cannot enter. Most will not even believe the Celestial man lives in us all. You have to put that ole flesh man out to die. Then your Celestial man will take over Paul said not me.
    2. This is how the Serpent seed got started. By refusing to listen to Gods Word of Revelation.
    3. His line would teach their little Cainites false doctrines about the Real Seed Adam who walked with God in the cool of the day. Cain’s just loved to build Nations and Rule and Murder and Pervert all God stood for.
    4. Lifting their self up above God and that is your Serpent, The Beast, Dragon, and False prophets all in one Nation. — But I know that is too simple for our great educated theologians today.
    5. Some of you do not even believe the Holy Spirit can live “In you” today. You think it is just an outward presence.
    6. How can a Prophet or Even Jesus Himself teach you Algebra and we do not even know our ABC’s
    7. Jesus told John to write it down that He is Coming like a Thief in the Night. I believe what Jesus told John. Most the World is not going to see it. They will laugh at you. Think you are the pervert.

    BACK TO TRUMPETS NOW
    1 Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos and all the prophets were Trumpets being blown in the O.T and John the Baptist came in the Power of Elijah was the Last in the O.T to introduce Jesus Christ the Messiah and introduce a NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH TO LIVE IN which was the Spirit Kingdom of God. But like then so it is today exactly.
    2. Who would listen. They were mostly Gazers only. Stopping their ears up with their fingers and not listening to what Jesus said. Now that is literal.
    3. But Apostasy had taken over Israel by the time John and Jesus arrived on the scene. John preached when he come that he would “raise up” all the valley’s and “bring down” the great mountains. That was the Pharisees, and Sadducees and Israel, and all who were great men in Israel but would not believe their own Messiah. The Baptist was a spiritual man. Jesus was the Thee Spiritual Man. Son of Man. He became the Son of God while in Heaven after Resurrection. The Bloody lamb Rev. 5. Now he is also the King of His Kingdom which is ALL Nations. Which will be destroyed. Rev. 17 and 18 etc. etc.

    THIE WILL SURELY BLOW YOU AWAY. Jesus said when He comes in MATT. 24:27-39 and many other places its as the Son of Man =A Prophet – This is how I know you do not really understand or even read the post. John like Moses Had Jesus IN HIM. The Prophets were all Sons of Man. But I forget sometimes that you mostly do not even believe in Prophets anymore. That is why it is so foreign to you I guess. John and Moses and all the Prophets were walking in Jesus footsteps. Jesus coming in the clouds Rev. 1:7 is the same thing John the Baptist did. Same Word #2064 – to gather the people for Christ to anoint the whole church with Himself = Holy Spirit.

    DANIEL 9:24 IS NOT and I REPEAT IS NOT the anti-christ. It is Jesus Christ. The “Last week” of Daniel is Called a “”RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY””, and to bring in an “Everlasting righteousness“, and to “Seal up the vision” and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy – How plain does it got to be. That is not the anti-christ – wake up, wake up, wake up.
    9:27 And HE=Messiah shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the “”midst of the week”” he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease””, and for the overspreading of abomination he shall make it desolate —- read MATT. 23:37-38 – 70 AD was complete desolation of the Nation of Israel. NO more animal sacrifice and not more Temple cause they killed their sacrifice Jesus Christ the Lamb. MATT. 24:14-15 Jesus said he that readeth let him “Understand”. The great Seal is opened. Rev. 22:9-11 Same which was the 7 Thunders of Rev. 10 and 11. The Seals, Thunders, Trumpets opened up. Completing the 2nd. Coming in the 1st. AGE along with doing the SAME in our AGE. Heb. 13:8 the same, yesterday, today and forever.

    REJECTING CHRIST IN ANY AGE BRINGS in Yom Kippor = Judgment – Then those that were left of the Believers enjoyed their Tabernacles Feast. The Believers were NOT under the Wrath as the other beastly nations were. The believers Nation is the Kingdom of God the New Jerusalem that is from Above. Cannot touch us with death. = death, hell, and the grave. The Believer is already died to the Beastly nations of the world. Christians die ONCE that is it. Jesus conquered Death, hell and the grave.

    The Message I am telling you is The Spirit trying to get you out of your traditions and into the PRESENT day we are living.

    One thing for sure you have been put on notice. You have no excuse when judgment comes to you. You have heard the Truth and now its up to you whether you really really want to check into it more carefully.
    Are you can go ahead and try and deceive me, trick me, confuse me, all you want. But you have heard the truth. Paul said to TAKE HEED

    MATT. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    MARK 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
    MARK 8:15- And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
    MARK 8:17- And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
    MARK 8:18- Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
    LUKE 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
    LUKE 11:36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

    HEBREWS 3:7 ¶ Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
    HEBREWS 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
    HEBREWS 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
    HEBREWS 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
    HEBREWS 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
    HEBREWS 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

    out for now —- bro. ty

    • Tom,

      YOU SAID:
      I just cannot believe you all even read my posts with the comments you send back in. Your answer is always in the Future tense.
      I SAY:
      I read every word. It is obvious that you DID NOT read my post. I said the answer is in the Past, Present AND Future.

      YOU SAID:
      So the Rapture had to be invented by your Theologian’s not Prophets to make sense to it.
      I SAY:
      No, the Rapture was “invented” by God and it was described by Paul. If the Rapture ALEADY happened as you say, when were the dead raised to life? When were the loving caught up? Wen did your mortal body change to an immortal body?

      YOU SAID:
      When you all can understand the O.T. you will start seeing and understanding the N.T. HEB. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
      I SAY:
      When you can understand the N.T. You will start seeing and understanding the O.T.

      YOU SAID:
      THE TRUMPETS ARE THE KEYS TO IT ALL- HEB. 13:8 SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, FOREVER.
      JOHNS MESSAGE WAS THE LAST TRUMPET TO OPEN UP A N.T AGE — SAME TODAY
      I SAY:
      1) John the Baptist preached a message of repentance at least 40 years BEFORE the Trumpets were mentioned in Revelation. How could John the Baptist fulfill something that hadn’t been prophesied yet?
      2) The Trumpets are NOT messages of repentance, as John the Baptist preached. They are a message of JUDGEMENT on the world because they refuse to repent.

      YOU SAID:
      WHO IS JESUS COMING FOR IN THE 2nd. COMING
      1. He has already Come and ye did not know it. Is he coming to catch -up your flesh man or your Spirit man. Flesh and blood cannot enter. Most will not even believe the Celestial man lives in us all. You have to put that ole flesh man out to die. Then your Celestial man will take over Paul said not me.
      I SAY:
      True, flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. Tom, is your body flesh and blood? If it is (and I’m most definitely sure it is) then you have NOT YET inherited the Kingdom of Heaven. It is a FUTURE event when your mortal FLESH AND BLOOD body is change into an immortal body. That will happen at the Rapture.

      “Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory” (I Corinthians15).

      If Jesus already came, then our body is imperishable, immortal and cannot die. Death has NOT been swallowed up in victory yet.

      YOU SAID:
      DANIEL 9:24 IS NOT and I REPEAT IS NOT the anti-christ. It is Jesus Christ. The “Last week” of Daniel is Called a “”RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY””, and to bring in an “Everlasting righteousness“, and to “Seal up the vision” and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy – How plain does it got to be.
      I SAY:
      1) The Seventy Sevens are decreed for Daniel’s people and his city. That would be the Jewish people and the City of Jerusalem. This prophecy will be fulfilled when Jesus returns when Israel will “look on Him whom they pierced.”
      2) Is there still sin in the world? Is there still sin in the Church? Sorry, it is PLAIN that “everlasting righteousness” hasn’t happened yet.
      3) Questions for you:

      a) When did the last”week” begin?
      b) When did the last “week” end?
      c) When was the “middle” of the week?
      d) What happens at the end of the week?

      YOU SAID:
      The Message I am telling you is The Spirit trying to get you out of your traditions and into the PRESENT day we are living.
      One thing for sure you have been put on notice. You have no excuse when judgment comes to you. You have heard the Truth and now its up to you whether you really really want to check into it more carefully.
      Are you can go ahead and try and deceive me, trick me, confuse me, all you want. But you have heard the truth. Paul said to TAKE HEED
      I SAY:
      You are already VERY deceived and confused. As I have said, salvation is not determined by what view of prophecy we accept. It is determined by whether we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and have trusted Him only for salvation.

      Tell me, in your opinion, what do you believe we will be judged for?

      • Hello Toddott,

        You said:
        “You are already VERY deceived and confused. As I have said, salvation is not determined by what view of prophecy we accept. It is determined by whether we have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and have trusted Him only for salvation. ”

        I agree with your statement to a certain extent. In the book of Revelation, as I’am sure that you are aware of, there is a curse for those who add to the word of this prophecy and a curse for those who take away from the words of this prophecy. Allow me to use the following as an example:

        “The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down on the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.”

        Now, regarding the Scripture above, there are people who have been taught by others and will ignore the literal meaning proclaimed by this event, that being that a third of the earth and a third of the trees are literally going to be burnt up, but instead will apply some spiritual or symbolic meaing. It seems to me that tose who do this are false teachers, taking away the true meaing of what the Scripture says or as stated in Rev.22:19 “taking words away from the book of this prophecy.” I say, that when that first trumpet is blown that a third of the earth is going to be burnt up, as well as a third of the trees, literally!

        Another example would be the following:

        “He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.”

        Regarding the above, you have those false teachers who ignore the literal meaning of this and proclaim that the mark is not a literal mark, nor is the right hand nor the forehead being spoken of in literal terms. They interpret the mark as anyone who observes the Sabbath on Sunday and that the right hand represents action or doing and the forehead represents making a descision with the mind. And so the mark of beast is then reduced to worshiping God on Sunday. By ignoring the literal interpretation, are they not taking away from the words of the prophecy of this book? For those who are taught and believe that interpretation, then they would not be concerned about a literal mark in the right hand or forehead for the purpose of buying and selling.

        Consider what Paul said regarding Hymenaeus and Philetus whom Paul said had departed from the truth and that because were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and by their teaching they destroy the faith of some. Today, if someone was teaching the same thing, believers might respond with, “Well, that is just their interpretation and I have mine,” as though there was no harm in it. Yet, the same applies today, if someone is claiming that the resurrection has already taken place, then like Hymenaeus and Philetus, they have wandered away from the truth.

        Simularly, if someone is teaching that everything has been fulfilled without the actual, literal fulfillment of those events, I don’t think that this is casual thing, but is a major issue and that because they are not adhering to the word of God. They are not taking to heart the things that are written therein. Does not the word of God not state the following:

        “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

        Sound doctrine would include all the word of God, would it not?

        Many people are basing their understanding of Scripture from websites, books and the teachings of men “gathering around them a great number of teachers.”

        As Scripture states, there is an rebellion/apostasy that must take place prior to the our being gathered to him, which will show who belongs to the Lord and who doesn’t.

        • dmcal

          I think you are “literally” correct, but may be pushing your point a bit too far. There is always a spiritual level of interpretation that can be assigned to any literal meaning. it is not apostacy to view it from more than one level of interpretation.

          for example, the mark may literally be an RFID chip, but spiritually, the mark can represent the works (hand) of man and the mind (forehead) of man that has strayed from god.

          • Yes, but as I stated, these people completely ignore the literal and apply the other, so that the literal is not even on the table. My point was and is, is that they change the meaing by ignoring the literal and teaching that it is not at all meant to be taken literally and thereby removing the true meaning from the Scripture. In the case of the mark, its main function will be to allow people to access their bank accounts in order to be able to perform credit and debit, while at the same time providing worship to the beast. These false teachers would teach that it has nothing to do with buying or selling at all and they completely allogorize the Scripture so that main point is not taught. For some reason, people have a difficult time believing that the plagues of Revelation are to be interpreted just as they are, literal and that because of how terrible the description is. But Jesus told us that that time was going to be a time of great distress unprecedented in the history since man has been on the earth.

            So in regards to your example, these people comletely disregard the mark as being and actual device placed in the right hand or forehead and teach another meaning, which takes away the true meaning. We have this on every facet. Satan is busy doing his work!

            • Don,
              Yes and you COMPLETELY ignore the spiritual allegorical so that it is not even on the table. Therefore, you COMPLETELY remove the true spiritual allegorical meaning from Scripture. So how are you any different from Tom?

              As for the people who completely disregarding the mark…which takes away the true meaning, your literal view is not the ONLY “true meaning.”

              And I think you have a terribly skewed view of what a false teacher is. The mark of the Beast is not doctrine. It is prophecy.

              And yes, Satan IS busy doing his work, bringing division in the Church and causes believer to judge and condemn each other.

            • I agree that there is definitely a literal meaning to the mark, and other aspects of revelation. there will be real wars on earth, real famines, real natural disasters, etc

        • Don,

          As I have said, I believe there are many levels of interpretation of prophecy, and multiple partial fulfillments. Tom is focused ONLY on the partial fulfillment and the spiritual, allegorical interpretation and ignores the literal fulfillment. You, however are focused ONLY on the literal interpretation and ignore the partial and allegorical fulfillments. According to your definition, then, you are also a false prophet.
          But I don’t believe anyone is adding or subtracting anything to the words of the prophecy of Revelation. The debate is about how and when they are fulfilled. Even the disciples of Jesus misunderstood ALL of the prophetic scriptures of the Old Testament concerning Jesus, and only understood AFTER they were fulfilled. I believe this will be the case with His Second Coming.
          The problem is that neither one of you is seeing prophecy for what it is – multiple patterns of fulfillment ending in a final complete fulfillment.

          The rebellion/apostasy that you mention is not going to be a debate about views of prophecy. It will be about the acceptance or rejection of the Cross of Christ.

          • amen

          • Toddott,

            You said:
            “The rebellion/apostasy that you mention is not going to be a debate about views of prophecy. It will be about the acceptance or rejection of the Cross of Christ.”

            The apostasy is not going to be about acceptance or rejection of the cross of Christ, for apostasy has to do with those who are already proclaiming to be in Christ and will be defecting form the faith, that is, falling away. So apostasy has nothing to do with unbelievers, for unbelievers can’t fall away from something that they don’t believe in.

            As for dual meanings, I only regognize the ones that the Spirit leads me to and that because people just apply any other meanings that they want based on “Cause I said so.” Here is an example of dual meaning:

            “About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

            “Surely not, Lord!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

            The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

            This Scripture, as a dual meaning, represents for one, being under the law, the food that Peter was shown was deemed unclean and not to be eaten. But under the new covenant, no food in its self is unclean and all is to be accepted if it be received by prayer and thanksgiving. And the second meaning and Jews where not to associate with them because they were considered unclean, now under the new covenant they were consider clean and not to be rejected as unclean. There is now neither Jew or Gentile for all are in Chirst Jesus.

            As far as me being a false teacher, I am not, and that because though I may not adhere to what you call a dual or spiritual meaning, I teach what the Scripture is saying. Unless the Lord reveals a dual meaning to me, then I don’t expound on it. Just because you tell me something has a dual meaning does not make it the truth. So, I always stick to the literal meaning of Scripture unless a symbolic meaing is required. As I said, the people I’m talking about are the one who read, “A third of the earth will was burnt up and a third of the trees was burnt up” and they deny that, applying some spiritual or symbolic interpretation, instead of understanding that during that time a third of the earth and trees are literally going to be burnt up.

            Speaking of spiritual interpretations, you proclaimed that the male child has dual meanings, one representing Jesus, but I don’t believe that and that because as I told you, Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child. And because of that I do not ascribe to that interpretation, but only the one, and that being that the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and nothing else. Likewise, none of the other dual meanings that you mentioned do I ascribe to and that because the Spirit has not lead me to those conclusions. That being the case, my belief in them would be simply based on because you or someone else says so. We can do no wrong by repeating what Scripture states.

            Scriptue says, death and Hades will have power over a fourth of the earth to kill by famine, plagues and wild beasts of the earth and I say, I agree word for word.

            Scripture says, a third of the earth and trees are going to be burnt up. I agree literally with exactly what is stated.

            Scripture says, a third of the sun, moon and stars are going to be darkened so that there will be a third less light during the day and night. I agree that they will be darkened by a third just as it is stated.

            Scripture says, that the sun is going scorce people with fire, searing them with intense heat. I believe that exactly.

            Etc, etc, etc.

            Whether there are dual meanings behind those, I have not found any and so I stick with what is written. I do not go beyond Scripture or try not to anyway.

            • Don,

              A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

              Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

              When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

              Revelation 12 is about a cosmic battle that has waged since the beginning of time. It’s the key to the entire Book of Revelation and ties it all together, and yet because of your “narrow” thinking I think you’ve missed its insignificance.

              1) First, we have a composite Dragon with seven heads and ten horns. We know that the Dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan.” We also know that His seven heads and ten horns suggests that he is the power behind the Beast with seven heads and ten horns. The composite Dragon is the personification of Satan and the relationship between the two is such that to speak of one is to speak of the other.

              “And I stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a Beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. The Beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The Dragon gave the Beast his power and his throne and great authority. One of the heads of the Beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the Beast. People worshiped the Dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the Beast and asked, “Who is like the Beast? Who can wage war against it?”

              2) Second, we have the Woman. Who is she? She can’t be or can’t include unbelieving Israel since God takes care of Her in the wilderness for 1260 days. She is therefore, the believing remnant of Israel out of every generation. Remember Paul says that not all who are natural descendant of Israel are truly Israel. The remnant of Israel is that elect group of Jews who experience God’s mercy in every generation. Thus, the remnant is the woman who ultimately gave birth to the Son who will “rule the nations with a rod of iron”as prophesied by Jacob in Genesis 49.

              “You are a lion’s cub, Judah;
              you return from the prey, my son.
              Like a lion he crouches and lies down,
              like a lioness—who dares to rouse him?
              The scepter [ROD OF IRON] will not depart from Judah,
              nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
              until He to whom it belongs shall come
              and the obedience of the nations shall be His.”

              The Woman is about to give birth to son, a male Child. This male child is to “rule the nations with a rod of iron.” The indication that this child “is to rule the nations” explains why this child is the object of the “composite” Dragon’s attention. All authority will be subject to this child and those who resist will meet destruction. Satan, “the god of this world” seeks to prevent the Son from reigning over the earth by killing him at birth. Satan also attempted to subvert the reign of Christ by offering Him “all the kingdoms of the world,”if he would bow down and worship him, which would have made Him a subject of Satan, and by attempting to kill Him several times throughout His ministry.

              “All the nations” appears more than sixty times in the Old Testament. It occurs five times in the Revelation. The phrase may or may not include the Jews, but it always represents all the Gentiles nations of the known world. These nations will be under the control of the Son. This explains why the composite Dragon will seek to keep the Son from His destiny. This Son will replace the composite Dragon as king of the earth and will demand the submission of all earthly authority to Himself.

              “While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth” (Daniel 2).

              Why do the nations conspire
              and the peoples plot in vain?
              The kings of the earth rise up
              and the rulers band together
              against the Lord and against his anointed, saying,
              “Let us break their chains
              and throw off their shackles.”
              The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
              the Lord scoffs at them.
              He rebukes them in his anger
              and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
              “I have installed my king
              on Zion, my holy mountain.”
              I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:

              He said to me, “You are my son;
              today I have become your father.
              Ask me,
              and I will make the nations your inheritance,
              the ends of the earth your possession.
              You will break them with a ROD OF IRON;
              you will dash them like pieces of [CLAY] pottery.”
              Therefore, you kings, be wise;
              be warned, you rulers of the earth.
              Serve the Lord with fear
              and celebrate his rule with trembling.
              Kiss his son, or he will be angry
              and your way will lead to your destruction,
              for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
              Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
              (Psalm2)

              From the beginning of time there has been a battle has waged. It all began in a Garden.

              “And I will put enmity
              between you and the woman,
              and between your Seed and hers;
              he will crush your HEAD,
              and you will strike his heel.”

              The heads of the composite Dragon represent earthly kingdoms that Satan has (or will) rule over. Each head is called a Beast and is part of the Beast system.

              At the time John was receiving this vision the angel tells him that five of the kingdoms represented by the heads of the Beast had fallen, one head currently existed, and the other had not yet appeared. Five of the symbolic heads of the Beast had already lost the power they once possessed. Those five were:

              (1) Egypt
              (2) Assyria
              (3) Babylon
              (4) Medo-Persia, and
              (5) Greece

              Rome was the 6th kingdom, the one in power at the time the Apocalypse was written. Therefore, there remains only one more kingdom, the 7th, left to come.
              The beast which arises from the Abyss is said to actually be the 8th, but he’s of the 7 already mentioned.

              Rome was also the kingdom in power when the Son, the male child was born. And it was at this time that the Dragon, the Roman Empire, waited to devour the Child.

              When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”
              So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

              “Her child was caught up to God and to His throne” explains how the child escaped the death trap of the Dragon. The “was caught up” is the same word used to describe what will happen to the “dead in Christ” and those living when He comes in the air (1Thess 4:16). Since the Dragon was in wait to kill the Son, the language communicates urgency—to snatch away. The fact that this child is caught up to God and to His throne shows the significance and importance of the Child. God’s throne throughout the Revelation is a place of absolute power and authority. It is the central focus in heaven.

              And though the Son’s heel was bruised at the crucifixion, the Dragon was unable to “devour” Him. Instead, it was through the “bruising” that the Satan actually began to lose power over the nations.

              “That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way” (Ephesians 1).

              The composite dragon has seven heads because seven kingdoms had the primary satanically inspired intent to prevent the temporal reign of the Son. There are only seven kingdoms that constitute the satanically inspired conspiracy to destroy the Man-Child.

              The composite dragon pictures Satan’s attempt to prevent the reign of the Son by using seven Beast kingdoms. Each of these empires ruled/will rule the entire known world. Behind their world dominance was Satan with his agenda to prevent the temporal reign of the Son.

              You have argued that this text can’t refer to Jesus since He did in fact die on earth, that this child seems to be caught up to heaven immediately after birth. But John is not giving a strictly literal interpretation of the events connected with the birth, ministry and death and resurrection of Christ. Instead, he is focusing on the satanic system that culminates in the end times with the worst persecution of God’s people the world will ever know, which justifies God’s wrath that follows.

              It is unfortunate that translators had divided the Bible into chapters and verses the way they have. A new chapter should have begun at chapter 11:19 for it is here that the Seventh Trumpet initiates the Bowls of God’s wrath upon this Satanic system and here Jesus begins to take His reign.

              “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
              the One who is and who was,
              because you have taken your great power
              and have begun to reign.
              The nations were angry,
              and your wrath has come.
              The time has come for judging the dead,
              and for rewarding your servants the prophets
              and your people who revere your name,
              both great and small—
              and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

              Notice here also that the time has come for judging those who revere God’s name. This seems to indicate that the judgement seat of Christ occurs at this time, suggesting a Pre-wrath Rapture.

              After the Rapture (Ascension) of the Son, the male child, at His first coming, the focus of the text shifts to the time of the end, 3 1/2 years prior to His second Coming.
              It is common for Prophecy to covers events related to the first and Second coming of Jesus by blending the two comings together in such a way that the interval between the First and Second Coming is not readily apparent. For example:

              FIRST coming:

              Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—
              The people walking in darkness
              have seen a great light;
              on those living in the land of deep darkness
              a light has dawned.
              You have enlarged the nation
              and increased their joy;
              they rejoice before you
              as people rejoice at the harvest,
              as warriors rejoice
              when dividing the plunder.
              For as in the day of Midian’s defeat,
              you have shattered
              the yoke that burdens them,
              the bar across their shoulders,
              the rod of their oppressor.
              Every warrior’s boot used in battle
              and every garment rolled in blood
              will be destined for burning,
              will be fuel for the fire.
              For to us a child is born,
              to us a son is given,

              SECOND coming:

              and the government will be on his shoulders.
              And he will be called
              Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
              Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
              Of the greatness of his government and peace
              there will be no end.
              He will reign on David’s throne
              and over his kingdom,
              establishing and upholding it
              with justice and righteousness
              from that time on and forever.
              The zeal of the Lord Almighty
              will accomplish this.

              The Son, the manchild is Jesus, the ONLY one who will rule the nations with a rod of iron. The 144,000 will not.

              • Good day!

                Toddott said:
                “Revelation 12 is about a cosmic battle that has waged since the beginning of time. It’s the key to the entire Book of Revelation and ties it all together, and yet because of your “narrow” thinking I think you’ve missed its insignificance. ”

                I Say:
                First of all, Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the third woe. Currently, Satan and his angels have access to heaven, for Scripture states:

                “For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.” (Rev.12:10-11)

                The fact that those who triumphed over Satan by the blood of the Lamb would at least show that these are being accused because of their testimony of Christ Therefore, even though Satan and his angels are fallen and are eventually thrown into the lake of fire, they still currently have access to heaven, accusing the saints and will continue to do so until that war comes, which will be towards the middle of that seven year period. That being said, Satan and his angels have not yet been restricted to this earth. But when he is, this is the meaning of the third woe when it states

                “But WOE to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

                This hasn’t happened yet, if it had, it would mean that we would currently be experiencing the third woe, that is, the seventh trumpet and we are definitely not. And if you were to disagree, then I would ask you to show me where the previous seals and trumpets have taken place? Where are trumpets 1 though 6. I haven’t seen any demonic beings coming out of the Abyss who torment the inhabitants of the earth with the stings of scorpions nor have I seen a third of the creatures in the sea and a third of the ships destroyed. These events are all chronological. If we haven’t seen those previous trumpets, then we couldn’t have seen trumpet seven, which is Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven.

                For sure, there has been anamosity and some type of waring between holy angels and fallen going on since their rebellion, but this war that is coming is unprecedented, in that Satan and his angels will finally and completely be cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth. Consider the following:

                “One day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came with them. The Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” (Job 1:6)

                In the verse above, the holy angels come to present themselves before God and Satan presents himself with them as well. Therefore, we can deduce from this that Satan still had access to heaven at around 1500 BC. Also, Scripture states the following:

                “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the [heavenly realms]. (Eph.6:12)

                Again, the verse above shows that our fight is with Satan and his angels who are referred to as spiritual forces in the heavenly realms and this is not just speaking of a lower heaven, but in the same heaven where God dwells.

                For brevity sake, I will comment on the rest of what you wrote in sections.

                • Tom,
                  Maybe you should reread my post. I said the text refers to Jesus up to the point where He is raptured. The rest, the fleeing of the Woman into the wilderness, the casting out of Satan, etc., is future.
                  The first part of the passage is about Satan’s attempt to thwart the temporal reign of Christ by trying to kill Him, in an attempt to keep Jesus, the Rock cut out of a mountain, from destroying Satan’s Beast system, the Dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Once the Son is caught up, all hope is lost that the Dragon will be able to kill the Son.
                  Fast forward to the future:
                  Michael initiates a battle and Satan is thrown down to earth. Satan is enraged because he knows his time is short. Unable to kill the Son, he goes after the Woman. But the Woman is divinely protected with a Seal in their foreheads. Again Satan is enrage and goes after her “offspring,” which are clearly Christians.

                  Again, it is Jesus who will “rule the nations with a rod of iron.” He is the Son, the male child, not the 144,000. This is supported by the scriptures I quoted.

            • Don,

              p.s.

              YOU SAID:
              I do not go beyond Scripture or try not to anyway.

              I SAY:
              Tell me where the Scripture says the manchild is the 144,000. I don’t believe it does. It is therefore, speculation, is it not? In fact, the manchild is raptured BEFORE the woman flees into the wilderness. Why would they need a Seal of protection?

              • This is how I arrive at the conclusion that the Male Child is a collective name for the 144,000:

                “No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.”

                Above are the same group of 144,000 who were sealed in chapter 7. Scripture states that this group did not defile themselves with woman, therefore they are all males, ergo, “Male Child.”

                The woman, the nation Israel who remains under the law, gives birth to these 144,000, that is, they come out from Israel as those who, by the grace of God, come to the knowledge that Jesus is the Messiah.

                The 144,000 are the first fruits out of Israel (Rev.14:4) and the woman, identified as Israel (Gen.37:9-10) is giving birth to a male child, which are those 144,000, the first fruits out of Israel.

                You said:
                “In fact, the manchild is raptured BEFORE the woman flees into the wilderness. Why would they need a Seal of protection?”

                Well for one, they are the only group who are sealed and by that seal are protected from those demonic beings that look like locusts, who torment the inhabitiants of the earth for five months with the stings of scorpions, as seen in the following Scripture:

                “And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”

                The 144,000 are the only people mentioned in Revelation as being sealed, which means that they are the only ones who are protected from those scorpion demons that come up from the Abyss. Other expositors have claimed that the great tribulation saints are also sealed, but that would be to read into Scripture was is not there and so where Scripture is silent then we must not go beyond that. The bottom line is that, there is no where mentioned that anyone else is sealed except for the 144,000.

    • Tom you say above;
      “I just cannot believe you all even read my posts with the comments you send back in. Your answer is always in the Future tense. Then if all these great events as you call them are in the future. Then you would have to believe that Jesus cannot come today.”

      I say;
      “It is because that all of these events are in the future that I believe that Yeshua could come back any day ! That is why we watch, (and why I had my bags packed as you say, for last Shavu’ot).”

      Now tell me, here you have 3 believers, (4 including Marianne and 5 including dru) that are all fairly well versed in Scripture, and we all agree on the “Big Picture of Revelation being Prophecy”, and that it could start unfolding at anytime. Yet you simply dismiss our testimony to this premise. How come?

      Praise unto Yeshua our returning KING of kings.
      Amen

      • tom has his own opinions, which he is entitled to, and he does not want to change.

        maybe it is best to drop the subject

        • Hi Marianne,

          I have no problem whatsoever with people that express their opinion.
          As long as it appears to have a Biblically sound foundation, I will entertain and consider many different interpretations.

          However, if they declare themselves to be a teacher, or in other words… an Apostle, that is where I have a difficulty if their interpretations appear to be out of line.

          Tom can express his opinion all he wants, but if he is going to claim what he says as fact, then he should be prepared to take on every rebuttal with a satisfactory answer.

          Because Berean’s are going to contend rather than simply accept what some else may just say.

          Praise Yeshua our Glorious KING of kings.
          Amen

    • Tom,

      You said:
      “Then if all these great events as you call them are in the future. Then you would have to believe that Jesus cannot come today.”

      The resurrection and catching away of the church is an entirely different event from Jesus’ return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. In that event Jesus is not returning to the earth, but is meeting us in the air to take us back to the Father’s house, that where he is we may be also. Through him we are rescued from the coming wrath. Therefore, in regards to the resurrection and catching away, there are no specific signs that must take place in order for the church to be gathered to him and so we must be like the man of the house who doesn’t know at what time the thief will break in and so we must watch and be ready. The only signs that we can watch for is the state of the world leading up to those signs. A very good one is that the system that the mark of the beast will use has been progressing for the last three decades with the key to being able to perform financial transactions on ones bank account being the debit card. When that man of lawlessness comes, then the switch will be made from debit card to his mark, which will be that subdermal device that will at least perform the same functions and more for being able to credit and debit ones bank account.

      On the other hand, regarding the Lord’s visual and physical return to the earth, there will be plenty of signs namely, the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The abomination is one of those signs during that last seven years and marks the middle of that seven year period, with 3 1/2 years left til the Lord’s return. With your interpretation, you have to force fulfillment by spiritualizing and symbolizing the events of Revelation, when the fulfillment of the plagues themselves should be the proof of that time period. The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have not yet be fulfilled and therefore, these events are still future.

  73. I believe that Jesus like PAUL, CANNOT come today. Paul said that he cannot come unless you see the apostasy and the man of sin revealed
    CASE CLOSED! ( And by the way, falling away apostasy is not the rapture)

    The time of trouble is the last three and half years Jesus also spoke of it. Yes we will be here the rapture takes place at the end:

    Luke 21: When YOU SEE all of these th8ing, the antichrist in the temple, the sun moon and stars darkened, then YOU LOOK UP FOR YOUR REDEMPTION DRAWS NEAR!

    • Hi Alan and congratualations, you just put the church through the entire wrath of God, seals, trumpets and bowls. Also, correction on the apostasy, the order is the rebellion/apostasy, our being gathered, and the man of lessessness being revealed. Those who will be here to lift up their heads will be the great tribulation saints, not the church, for they will have already been removed.

    • Alan,
      The apostasy/falling away is already here. Have you ever heard of the Word Faith Movement, the Emergent Church Movement, the Purpose Driven Lie Movement, the Ecumenical Movement, etc, etc, etc? All of these teach a watered down, useless false gospel and have a form of godliness but deny its power.

  74. I would like to see people here just realize there are legitimate literal, spiritual and metaphorical meanings to scripture…..

    .and we have to keep each view in balance with the others.

    there are some events which have been fulfilled, and many events which are still to be fulfilled.

    • Marianne,

      I do agree that there is more than likely some truth to your above statement, (especially in regards to the Book of Revelation).
      However in respects to Paul and his epistles, what is recorded within Scripture would confirm that all of what he is saying is to be taken in its literal sense.

      Within his epistle’s, Paul is trying to teach and educate those he has brought to the Lord, as to how to do the will of God the Father, (as did the other Apostles).
      It makes no sense for him, to attempt to express this teaching in a spiritual sense when they for the most part are only able to digest milk.
      That is why in 2 Corinthians 1:13., Paul says;

      “For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;”

      Paul’s epistle’s, (based upon what he has said and the reasons he is writing them), are therefore to be taken literally, rather than spiritually.
      (And I suspect this would also be applicable to all of the other epistle’s written by the other Apostles as well, simply because of why they were being written.)

      Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod.
      Amen.

      • Oh and regarding the above, I am not stating that there are no spiritual aspects within these epistle’s. For I believe that there are.
        However for one to create a whole theology based only upon them, is in my opinion, incorrect.

      • the Word is spirit and truth….so it is really a blend, don’t you think?

  75.  Accepted,

    Think with a “spiritual mind” on these verses.

    “Because yours fight has not been with flesh and blood, but with Principalities and The Rulers and The Powers of this dark world and with wicked spirits which are under Heaven” (Ephesians 6:12 Aramaic Bible in Plain English)

    “Jesus replied, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven'” (Matthew 16:17).

    “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

    “Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience:” (Ephesians 2:2, American King James Version).

    “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light” (Ephesians 5:8).

    Let’s see…spiritual, spiritual, spiritual and “light” (righteousness), which is ~ spiritual. Amen.

    So now what is the Kingdom of Heaven? 

    It is spiritual.

    The Jewish Bible translates Roman 14:17 with these words:

    “…for the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, shalom and joy in the Ruach HaKodesh.”

    Discernment is with spiritual ears and eyes. It is a gift from God. 

    What was Yeshua telling us in Rev 2 and 3 to the churches?  Hear what the Spirit says. It is Spiritual first and above all worldly wisdom.

    Some folks are still believing demons don’t reside within the flesh of Believers either. That is a spiritual matter too.

    Some folks read Mark 16 and think they can drink battery acid and it don’t harm them. Snakes do bite and scorpions are desert dwellers. What a joke (not really).

    PS. We are in the mists of the 7 year tribulation (testing) period and the time of Great Testing begins soon.  

    I had a recent illness in my ears and eyes. I just didn’t hear or see the message clearly. Seems there was within me some remnant of “Left Behind” teaching by Tim and “Late Great” Hal teaching in my flesh (natural mind). False teaching is a evil spirit that can linger, it is stubborn (“Demons and Deliverance in the Ministry of Jesus” by Frank Hammond). 

    That Pre-Tribber mind is stubborn, resistant to a spiritual mind as Yeshua explains to the churches in Rev 2 and 3. 

    We overcome by the Blood of the Lamb (spiritual) and our by our testimony (faith in spiritual by our words and action).  That faith we hold so dear is even unto death (pick up your cross / submit to God’s will daily) as we read in Rev 12:11.

    “As in the days of Noah…”, but the ark today is spiritual. Get it?

    Good to be back on this conversational side of the blog.

    Time is short ~ the crap (Isalmic “pale” green horse) is about to hit the fan. Translation: “Seal 4 opens soon.”

    Marianne’s dream (3 Days of Darkness) is a representation of that seal opening soon (in my interpretation and opinion).

    The Beast is the world system (physical, natural, carnal) and Berry, da Pope, Washington DC, New York, Vatican, London, Brussels, Bajing, and Las Vegas (ya baby) are worldly (in my interpretation and opinion).

    Jerusalem is more than a city – it is a spiritual state: soul and spirit. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. So, please re-read Romans 14:17 and “see”.

    Got’a have peace and Joy in the Spirit, which is of God to live in this world of darkness. Righteousness (“light”) come from above with the precious Blood of the Lamb, graciously given thank you Lord. You see, my righteousness (efforts, works and “daily sacrifices with offerings”) is but filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).

    Blessings to you (formerly Alienated  ~ now Accepted).

    • Hi DJ,

      Apparently what I had stated above went over your head.
      Obviously all of Scripture is Spiritual, but I believe that true discernment is to distinguish between the “Spiritual and Literal”.

      Allow me to address what you have posted above:

      If I take Ephesians 6:12., “literally”, (though the subject is “spiritual”), I would understand that our battle is with “evil spirits”.

      If I take Matthew 16:17., “literally”, (though the subject is “spiritual”), I would understand that it was God the Father that revealed to Peter that Yeshua is the Messiah.

      If I take Ephesians 1:3., “literally”, (though the subject is “spiritual”), I would understand that through Yeshua, the Spirit has blessed and consecrated us in heavenly places.

      Etc., etc., etc.

      So lets see…. reading what is plainly stated above in the literal sense, leads to what it is that is to be understood.
      And that would be applicable to the rest of your post as well.

      You do ask a question within your post above though, you ask, “What was Yeshua telling us in Rev 2 and 3 to the churches?”
      You then quote, “Hear what the Spirit says”, and state, “It is Spiritual first and above all worldly wisdom”.

      With all due respect, that my friend is nonsense.
      The “Messenger’s” were Yeshua, the Spirit and Angels, and the message was NOT above all worldly wisdom at all.
      The message was to be understood by those that do their best to be Faithful and “Keep the word of His patience” and be the “overcomers” that He desires us to be.
      If one takes the “warnings” literally, one should understand what is not only their responsibilities, but also what is required to be an overcomer.

      Of course “demons” exist. If one were to simply read the myriad of verses regarding demons and them being expelled in the literal sense, one couldn’t come to any other logical conclusion. (However, I don’t believe as you do, that demons can reside in the same temple as the Holy Spirit resides in. “For He that is within me, is stronger than he that is in the world”, (1 John 4:4.). We can be vexed and attacked, (2 Corinthians 12:7., and Luke 22:31.), which we should rejoice in, because we then know that we are on the right path with the Lord, though be at peace with it all, knowing that indeed, “His Grace is Sufficient”! (2 Corinthians 12:9.).

      I stopped reading your post when I came to the part where you started to berate those, (as perhaps not being as blessed as you consider yourself to be), as being stubborn and resistant to a spiritual mind, simply because they happen to believe in a pre-Tribulation gathering.
      Perhaps if you were to take the time and read Scripture in its literal sense once and a while, you would be able to see what it actually says and is implying?

      Time will tell.

      The LORD is the Judge of those that follow Him.
      Please leave the judging in His Majestic and Capable Hands.
      Amen.

    • DJ,

      So we’re in the mists (sic) of a seven year tribulation? Hmmm. So when did it start? Where is the guy on the white horse bent on conquest? Why hasn’t God revealed it to the rest of His Church?

      Yes, we are a spiritual people and we fight spiritual battles with spiritual entities and have spiritual blessings and spiritual gifts and are kept safe in a spiritual Ark, and partake of spiritual food and spiritual drink and are filled with spiritual light and are part of a spiritual Temple. But we also reside in a physical body, live on a physical world, in physical kingdoms, with other physical people and drink physical food and physical drink. And many spiritual people are physically martyred and physically persecuted . And there will soon be a physical Tribulation for the physical unbelievers and a physical Beast kingdom ruled by a physical man and there will be physical judgements which destroy much of the physical earth and kill many of the physical people, before Jesus comes to set up a physical Kingdom, when the spiritual Temple made up of Living Stones which is now spiritually seated in the spiritual heavenliness, descends upon the physical earth. And God will create a new heavens and a new earth, which would be unnecessary if we were purely spiritual beings. But it will be necessary because we will have a spiritual body like Jesus’ resurrection body which can be seen and touched and felt, and Jesus will return in the same way that He left, in the clouds as the people looked on at His literal, tangible, spiritual body.

      For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

      This verse has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Taken in context it is merely saying that our righteousness isn’t determined by what we eat or drink.

  76. I’ve seen a lot of “YOU” statements within replies lately. Reminds me of Dan Aykroyd comments to Jane Curtin, “Point / Counter Point”, on SNL back in the 80’s. 

    Here is some balm from the soul.

    Jesus says, “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.”

    “This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you”, (John 15:9-12 NKJV).

    The fruit of righteousness is always joy and peace; in the same way the fruit of love is always joy and peace. Righteousness is love in action, believing and doing.

    Righteousness is faith working by love. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love” (Galatians 5:6 NKJV). 

    “For the LORD is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face”(Psalms 11:7 NASB).

    That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace” (Romans 8:2-6 NKJV). 

    “In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another” (1st John 3:10-11 NKJV).

    “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord” (Ephesians 5:8-10 NKJV).

    “But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—that, as it is written, ‘He who glories, let him glory in the LORD'” (1 Corinthians 1:30-31 NKJV).

    Jane and Dan were funny – pointing out the obvious.

    Blessings
    Psalm 40

  77. Praise God – at least the Message has got things stirred up alittle. I would have to take off for a week to replay to many of them. But at least I see some fire in the house . Consuming fire – thats God a Spirit –

    Rom. ROMANS 8:30- Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Predestinate – most of you do not believe in that — ok. tear that out

    Justified – sanctified – some believe this –

    Glorified – Hardly anyone believes this is now– I double dog dare you to look this word up – I am already Glorified as well. I have a glorified body – full of light – Look it up and see if you compared to the stars, moon, etc. yea I love the Word of God.

    My body aint going no where until God says its over. God is in command of my body and owns it as well. My Celestial man rules this body.
    Look it up trace it down —

    Lord bless you all – bro. ty

  78. To All,

    Earlier, (somewhere on this thread), I referred to the Holiness of Gods Word that we are discussing.
    By that I was also attempting to bring to light “who we are supposed to be” and how we are to act towards one another.
    I agree that I am also guilty of this and it grieves my heart knowing that if I were called to stand before Him today, that I wouldn’t be able to justify my actions and how I may have disrespected those who are, both my brothers and sisters here on this site.

    Maybe we should all take a moment to reflect upon this?
    Remember Who it is that we are following and whether or not our actions, would be those that would please His heart?
    Perhaps…. though we may disagree with what someone else’s opinion or interpretation may be, we can do it without ridiculing each other.
    Without berating someone for having a different point of view?

    By the above I am not saying that we simply accept something that someone may express whether it has any Biblical foundation or not, but I am saying that when we disagree, we do so with love.

    Just my thoughts and what I felt needed to be expressed.
    Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious KING of Righteousness.
    May He in His Compassion have Mercy upon us all.

    Amen

  79. Well said Accepted, and I totally agree with you and have been feeling the same myself. Therefore, toddott and Tom and anyone else that I may have been harsh with or offended, please except my apologies.

    • Don,

      I didn’t think you were harsh, just very passionate about your views. Or was I offended. Nevertheless, apology accepted.

      So you and Tom and I have differing views of how to interpret Scripture. And all three of us believe that the Spirit has reveal it to us. Is it possible that the Spirit has revealed different aspects of His Word to many people and that all of them are partially true? I do. The sad thing is that human pride doesn’t allow many to accept this. We have this need in us to feel “special,” to believe we have something from God that others don’t have. And we have a need to be right. We claim that we don’t accept the other’s views because the Spirit hasn’t revealed it to us. But the Spirit doesn’t reveal things to us unless we are willing to accept them. And in many case what we believe is the Spirit is actually the flesh.

      I never said that you were a false teacher. I said that “according to our own words” you are a false teacher. You called Tom false teacher because he ignores the literal interpretation. But you do the same thing by ignoring the spiritual, allegorical aspect.
      And though I don’ agree with all that Tom has said, I was defending his right to believe what he believes without being labelled a false teacher.

      None of us, even you, have it all figured out. None of us, even you, have all the answers. We all “see through a glass darkly.” You believe in a Pre-Trib rapture. Others believe in a mid, or a post, or a Pre-wrath. Are they all false teachers because they don’t agree with you? Is it possible that you could be wrong? Some believe in Predestination. Others believe we have free will. Is one of them a false teacher? Can’t they both be true in some mysterious way that we don’t understand?
      I think so.
      We are all Living Stones in the same Temple. We are all different parts of the same Body. We all have different gifts, we all have different insights into Scripture. We all see things from a different point of view and a different perspective. We are all pieces of a puzzle that, when joined together, create a beautiful picture. But that picture will never be complete until the final piece is put in place, until the day Eve gives birth and the sons of God are revealed, until the final Capstone is laid in its place.
      It is arrogant to think that our perspective is the only one that is valid or true. I think God is bigger than the little box we try to put Him in.

      YOU SAID:
      The apostasy is not going to be about acceptance or rejection of the cross of Christ, for apostasy has to do with those who are already proclaiming to be in Christ and will be defecting form the faith, that is, falling away. So apostasy has nothing to do with unbelievers, for unbelievers can’t fall away from something that they don’t believe in.
      I SAY:
      I never said it was about unbelievers. The Laodicean Church of Revelation sought thought they were right and had need of nothing. Jesus said they were “naked.” In other words, they rejected the Cross which brings righteousness. The falling away is about believers and it is already happening.
      I would say a rejection of the Cross of Christ is a defection from the faith, wouldn’t you?

      What is the Gospel?

      “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
      For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…”

      All of the following and many more trade the Gospel for money, false unity, false peace, signs and wonders, etc.

      Word Faith Movement/Emergent Movement/Sacred Name Movement/UniversalismThe New Apostolic Reformation/Dominion Theology/Kingdom Now/Latter/Rain-Kansas City/Prophets/Vineyard/International House of Prayer /The Third WaveToronto Blessing/Lausanne/New Wine Skins False Gospel Movement /The Easy-Believism/Mental Ascent/Repeat The Sinner’s Prayer/OMIT and/or DIMINISH The Doctrine of Repentance False Gospel Movement/The Social/Humanistic”The Gospel of the Air”/God Calls Believers to Restore Humanity and the Universe/Heavy on Works-Righteous Salvation False Gospel Movement /The New Age/Eastern Mysticism False Gospel Movement /The Ecumenical/Evangelicals + Catholics=The Body of Christ/”Come Back Home”/”Go Back to Rome” False Gospel Movement

      More to come later…

  80. Just an FYI regarding the follwing:

    ” it is Jesus who will “rule the nations with a rod of iron.”

    The above phrase is a promise to he who overcomes:

    “To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— he ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’”

    It is also a promise to the male chihld/144,000:

    “She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

    And it is said of Jesus, the rider on the white horse:

    “He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”

    As I stated earlier, Jesus does not meet the criteria of the male child and that because the male child is caugh up to God and to his throne before the dragon/Satan can kill him. On the other hand, Jesus did not escape, but was crucified. Jesus was never caught up, that is, that is in the sense of Harpazo. The male child, like the living church are caught up alive without harm, where Jesus is crucified.

    You believe that the male child has a dual meaning, but I do not and that because of what I just stated above, Jesus is crucified (killled) and the male child escapes without harm to God’s throne.

  81. Hi Todd,

    Regarding your post of May 5th. @ 9:06 pm.

    If I may, could I offer a different proposal?

    First the whole of Revelation is “The Revelation of Yeshua HaMashiach, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:”

    In just that 1st verse we have the English “Revelation” derived from the Greek “ἀποκάλυψις” transliterated as “apokalypsis” and defined as, “Laying bare, making something naked. A disclosure of truth, or instruction concerning things before unknown. Used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto, (or until this time) have been withdrawn from view are made visible to all. A manifestation, or appearance.”
    This would then mean, that all of this following information has been until now, “hidden and unknown”.
    As well we have the English translated above as “shortly come to pass”. This was derived from the Greek “γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει” or the transliterated “ginomai en tachos” and can only be understood within its correct context, as to be referring to to the future, regarding something that will happen and come to pass shortly.
    Furthermore, this is supported as well by what is stated in verse 3. “Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this “prophecy”, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    The English word “prophecy” is derived from the Greek “προφητείας”, transliterated “prophēteia”. The primary definition of prophecy is, “a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by “foretelling future events”.”
    The above 3 instances, (though there are a total of 6 within the first 4 chapters), would definitely indicate that all of the following information is describing events of the future, rather than anything having any historical significance whatsoever. . (And prophecy could not be considered prophecy, if the information itself is already known.)
    So in keeping just that in mind, lets look at Revelation 12.
    Here is how I see what the chapter is saying.
    Rev. 12:1., (in allowing for Scripture to interpret Scripture) would be physical Israel as a nation based upon Genesis 37:9,10.
    Rev. 12:2., can not refer to that of Yeshua simply because it is not Revelation, or Prophecy, nor does that premise even fit with anything that would shortly come to pass for John received this revelation some 75 to 95 years after Yeshua had been born.
    Rev. 12:3., is referring to the coming beast. (Which since he hasn’t been fully revealed as of yet, would also nullify that the male child is Yeshua since He was born some 2014 or so years ago now.)
    Rev. 12:4., This is something that has not occurred yet. It is still prophecy to yet be revealed.
    Rev. 12:5., From Israel the nation, 144,000 will be born of the Spirit and understand that Yeshua is the Messiah.
    I believe that many utilize the “who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron:”, (which should have been rendered more accurately from the Greek as “to be about, or will” rather than “was”) and associate that phrase with that of only Yeshua, forgetting that those that overcome will also “rule and reign with a rod of iron” as stated in Revelation 2:26,27.
    This being born of the Spirit and sealed as such is described in Revelation 7:3 – 8., and the catching away up to God of the 144,000 is described in Revelation 14:2.
    Rev. 12:6., Here we have Israel the nation fleeing, separate from the 144,000. Though I suspect that by now many of them will believe in Yeshua as their Messiah.
    But this occurs so that prophecy may be fulfilled and so that God can fulfill the Covenant promises that He has made with her.
    *Note Rev. 12:7 to 12:10 could possibly have been placed within parenthesises.
    Rev. 12:7., Describes the future battle that will take place in heaven. Currently satan still has access to the Throne and still accuses us today.
    Rev. 12:8. satan loses the battle and is not allowed into heaven any more.
    Rev. 12:9., So he and his fallen angels are cast to earth.
    Rev. 12:10., When this happens John hears the following from a loud voice in heaven saying, “Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Messiah: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”
    John hears this because satan and his angels have been cast out, and not because “salvation” will happen at that exact moment in time, but rather because the process of God the Fathers plan is already determined and will not be in vain.
    Rev. 12:11., This then would be relevant to the “woman” in context, where many overcame by Yeshua’s blood, and maintained their faith even unto death of the body.
    Rev. 12:12., Heaven rejoices over this faith. But there is woe for those that dwell on the earth, because satan has been cast down and knows that he doesn’t have a lot of time left.
    Rev. 12:13., Satan knowing that he has been cast down, and knowing that he doesn’t have a lot of time left now persecutes the woman, (Israel), which brought forth the man child, (or the 144,000) sealed and born of the Spirit.
    Rev 12:14., Israel flees under Gods protection to a uninhabited place, where she will stay for 3 1/2 years.
    Rev. 12:15., satan pursues the woman, and spews out of his mouth “water” as a flood, (which could be actual water, or used in its figurative sense as referring to “many people”), in an attempt to destroy Israel the woman.
    Rev. 12:16., God uses the earth to save the woman by having it somehow open up and enveloping either this water, or the many people pursuing her.
    Rev., 12:17., satan was pretty upset with that happening so now instead he focuses his attention upon the “remnant” of her seed, (which I believe could very well be the 144,000 which keep the commandments of God, (by loving others as He had loved us), and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach).
    Just my thoughts.
    Be Blessed in Yeshua our Glorious and Precious KING of kings.
    Amen.

    • Accepted:

      YOU SAID:
      Rev. 12:2., can not refer to that of Yeshua simply because it is not Revelation, or Prophecy, nor does that premise even fit with anything that would shortly come to pass for John received this revelation some 75 to 95 years after Yeshua had been born.
      I SAY:
      The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this PROPHECY…
      I warn everyone who hears the words of the PROPHECYof this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of PROPHECY, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

      John says the entire Book of Revelation is prophecy. If your argument is true, then we need to remove Revelation 1:1-Revelation 3:22 because they don’t fit your criteria as to what prophecy is.

      YOU SAID:
      Rev., 12:17., satan was pretty upset with that happening so now instead he focuses his attention upon the “remnant” of her seed, (which I believe could very well be the 144,000 which keep the commandments of God, (by loving others as He had loved us), and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach).
      I SAY:
      According to the text the 144,000 are Raptured BEFORE the Woman flees to the wilderness which happens mid-Trib.
      The Dragon stood in front of the Woman so that it might devour the child as soon as it is born. She gave birth and the text implies the child was immediately snatched up and the woman immediately fled into the wilderness.
      The next verse states that war broke out in heaven, the Dragon lost his place in heaven, is kicked to the earth and then pursues the Woman, who he was just standing in front of, waiting to devour the child.
      So why would the Dragon standing in front of the Woman, ready to devour her child? Why not devour the Woman? Kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.
      The answer – there is a 2000 year gap between verse 5 and 6.

      It is the Bride who will reign with Christ, not the 144,000. Nowhere in Scripture is the 144,000 equated with the male child. It is speculation. If fact, the 144,000 are called “bond servants of our God.” Bond servants don’t sit on thrones and reign over nations.

      • Hi Todd,

        I have no idea as to what the point is that your making within your first “I Say” above?
        Why would Revelation 1:1 to 3:22 have to be removed? Is the Church age over, or is there some future left for it? Has Philadelphia gone through that door already?

        Regarding your second “I Say”. The statement you make is questionable. I could say to you, “I have been born and I will die”, yet that doesn’t mean that there won’t be some time in between those two instances. The 144,000 are described again within Revelation 14, where they are on the earth in verse 1 and then in heaven within verse 3. Here, check out the differences between the first and second usage of child within this verse too.
        http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Rev&c=12&v=1&t=KJV#conc/5

        And I would still state that since the Book as stated is “Revelation and Prophecy” the “male child” can not be Yeshua. And as well, if you still believe that this “male child” is Yeshua, then apply that of you own argument to this and see whether or not it fits your own criteria?
        You have chastised both Don and myself now for speculating, yet your theory of a 2000 year gap between Revelation 12:5 and 6 appears to be just that to me in my opinion. I see it all as a sequence of unfolding events that are yet to take place.

        Regarding your last paragraph and your connotation that there is something wrong with being a “bond servant”, what the heck do you think that the Bride is?

        The English “servant” within Revelation 7:3., (which I suspect in your version of the Bible also includes the word “bond”), is derived from the Greek “δοῦλος”, or the transliterated “doulos”, (Strong’s 1401). It is defined within this context as “ a slave, devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests. One who gives himself up to another’s will, those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men”.

        It is the same Greek word in Scripture that Yeshua uses in Matthew 10:24.;
        “The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the “servant” above his lord.”

        Be Blessed in Yeshua the Name above All names.
        Amen.

        • Oh and Todd,

          In case I lost you there regarding your own criteria and the “Male Child” as being Yeshua who you say was born then immediately “caught up”, (harpazo) to God.
          Wasn’t Yeshua here for a period of 3 1/2 years?
          Maybe the 144,000 will be here for 3 1/2 years too?

          Be Blessed in Yeshua.

        • Accepted,

          YOU SAID:
          I have no idea as to what the point is that your making within your first “I Say” above?
          Why would Revelation 1:1 to 3:22 have to be removed? Is the Church age over, or is there some future left for it? Has Philadelphia gone through that door already?
          I SAY:
          Sorry, misunderstood your statement.
          You say it can’t be Jesus because it is not prophecy or revelation. But the focus isn’t on Jesus, it is on the Dragon with the seven heads and ten horns. John is introducing this dragon that has been around through six world kingdoms and is ready to rule over a seventh. He is showing that the purpose and intent of Satan is to prevent the temporal reign of Jesus through the Dragon with seven heads and ten horns. He is showing us the backdrop for what occurs in the next chapters. In the Garden Satan usurped man’s authority to reign on earth. Genesis 3 prophesied that the Seed would could and crush the head of Satan. W hen the Seed was born, Satan tried to kill Him to prevent Him from taking back control of the earth. Satan was unable to prevent the Son from fulfilling His destiny and the Son was caught up to the throne of God. This ended the Sixty-ninth week of Daniel.

          The Seventieth Week finds the Woman fleeing to the wilderness.
          One last time Satan will try to rule over the earth through the Dragon, but it won’t last. There will be a war in Heaven, Satan will be cast down to earth, and in a rage because he knows his time is short, he will pursue first, the Woman whom God protects, and then the remnant. But ultimately the Genesis 3 prophecy will be fulfilled and the man child will rule over the earth. That is what the text is “revealing.”

          The following is not prophecy or revelation either. We already know that God purchased us out of every nation to be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation, and that will will reign with Christ on earth. It’s not a new revelation, nor is it prophecy, but it’s still in Revelation.

          “…and with your blood you purchased for God
          persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
          You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
          and they will reign on the earth.”

          YOU SAID:
          In case I lost you there regarding your own criteria and the “Male Child” as being Yeshua who you say was born then immediately “caught up”, (harpazo) to God.
          Wasn’t Yeshua here for a period of 3 1/2 years?
          Maybe the 144,000 will be here for 3 1/2 years too?

          I SAY:
          My comment was in response to your statement:
          Rev., 12:17., satan was pretty upset with that happening so now instead he focuses his attention upon the “remnant” of her seed, (which I believe could very well be the 144,000 which keep the commandments of God, (by loving others as He had loved us), and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach).

          My point was that the “remnant”of her seed could not be the 144,000 if they were the male child, because the male child was raptured BEFORE the woman fled into the wilderness.

          The Bride will reign with Christ, with a rod of iron. The 144,000 will not be part of the Bride, since the Bride is raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation and the 144,000 are sealed afterward. Therefore, the 144,000 cannot be the manchild who WILL reign with a rod of iron.

          As for speculation. My view has scriptural support:
          The key to Revelation is the Old Testament. Both Psalm 2 and Genesis 49 prophesy that Jesus will rule with a rod of iron.
          Your view has no scriptural support. It is, as I have said, speculation. And no, it is not “chastisement.” It is just stating a fact. Nowhere in scripture is there a direct link between the 144,000 and the manchild. There are however, at least two links, mentioned above, between Jesus and the manchild.

          Question:
          If the 144,000 is the Manchild who is sealed (divinely protected) and the Woman is Israel who is also divinely protected, then who is this third group who obey God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus?

          “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands….Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (I John 5)

          My other point was this:

          The 144,000 are sealed just prior to the Trumpets judgements.

          “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

          “After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God” (Revelation 6:15-7:3).

          The 144,000 are seen in Heaven just before the Seven Bowls of God’s Wrath, which occurs at the END of the Tribulation.

          “Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of HARPISTS PLAYING THEIR HARPS. And THEY SANG A NEW SONG before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth” (Revelation 14).
          I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. And I saw what looked like a sea of glass glowing with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and its image and over the number of its name. THEY HELD HARPS given them by God AND SANG THE SONG OF GOD’S SERVANT MOSES AND OF THE LAMB… ” (Revelation 15).

          The 144,000 are on earth during the Great Tribulation. The Manchild, however, is caught up BEFORE the Woman flees into the wilderness, and the Manchild is caught up before Satan is cast out of Heaven. Both of these events happen mid-Trib and since many of the Trumpet judgments and ALL of the Bowl judgements happen during the second half of the Tribulation, and the 144,000 are victorious over the Beast, surviving the 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 are probably not the Manchild

          YOU SAID:
          Regarding your last paragraph and your connotation that there is something wrong with being a “bond servant”, what the heck do you think that the Bride is?

          Yes, we are bond servants now, but I believe as the Bride of Christ we will have a different kind of relationship.

          As the Bride of Christ we will sit on the throne with our Husband:

          “To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

          Compared to those who serve before the throne:

          And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
          “they are before the throne of God
          and serve him day and night in his temple;
          and he who sits on the throne
          will shelter them with his presence.

          • Morning Toddott and all,

            You said:
            “The Bride will reign with Christ, with a rod of iron. The 144,000 will not be part of the Bride, since the Bride is raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation and the 144,000 are sealed afterward. Therefore, the 144,000 cannot be the manchild who WILL reign with a rod of iron.”

            The reference to ruling with Christ is during the millennial period, so it wouldn’t have anything to do with the church being caught up as the reigning takes place during the millennium, so why can’t the 144,000/male child reign with Christ also?

            Regarding the male child being the 144,000 let’s compare:

            The 144,000 being sealed, 12,000 from each the twelve tribes of literal Israel, is synonymous with Israel giving birth to the male child. The male child is caught up to God and to his thrown without being killed by the dragon/Satan and is seen with Christ after they have been redeemed from the earth referred to as the 144,000 in chapter 14. The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and therefore Scripture states that the male child will also rule all the nations with an iron scepter. As I have stated before, Jesus does not meet the criteria as being the male child.

            Just as the living believers at the time of the resurrection are changed in a moment and caught up alive, so also is the male child and that before Satan can kill them. Jesus on the other hand was crucified, which would not fit the prophecy of the male child escaping into heaven without being devoured. So we have the male child escaping unharmed and Jesus being crucified, so how can Jesus represent the male child when he was crucified, where the male child is snatched up to heaven without a scratch? The answer is that Jesus is not representing the male child, but the male child is another designation for the 144,000 and they are the ones who are collectively called the male child and are caught up. And since the 144,000 are the male child, it is said that the male child will rule with an iron scepture during the millennium, as will those believers of the church who will have overcome, as well as the great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4-5)

            .

          • Hi Todd,

            Firstly, I would like to state that neither I, (or anyone here for that matter), can definitively state that what they happen to believe regarding this is absolutely true.
            I would suspect that not even John himself fully understood what he was both seeing and recording.
            No one here can in good conscience, proclaim themselves as being a “teacher or Apostle”, so all of us are more or less speculating as to what the text is saying.
            Though we attempt to comprehend the text, I believe that much is still sealed up from our understanding.

            Nonetheless, I will address some of what you say above by responding with my opinion.
            But first, Your apology is more than accepted.

            I believe that the focus of Revelation 12 is on many things rather than just one.
            In actuality, it is my opinion that the “Fleeing of the Woman into the Wilderness” is elaborating on what is recorded within Matthew 24:15-26., and with that, (and what I have already stated within my previous posts), I don’t believe that the “male child” has anything to do with being that of Yeshua.

            You say above; “John is introducing this dragon that has been around through six world kingdoms and is ready to rule over a seventh. He is showing that the purpose and intent of Satan is to prevent the temporal reign of Jesus through the Dragon with seven heads and ten horns.”

            I would agree with this personally. However you yourself state within that comment, “and is ready to rule over a seventh”. Is this not to be understood as being in a future tense? Has this “seventh kingdom” been revealed and materialized to fruition yet, or is it to happen in the future?

            (Not to introduce an entirely new topic here, but I would also like to ask, “Is that really the intent of satan?”
            To attempt to stop something that he is well aware of, that he can not stop?
            The fact that Scripture states that he is aware that he hasn’t got much time left, wouldn’t that indicate that he realizes he can’t stop what God has planned?
            He has just lost one battle in heaven and been cast down, he most certainly realizes that he will never win, (though Scripture would indicate that he will go down fighting). I believe that his true intent is to draw as many souls away from God as possible.
            The reason I believe the above, is because satan’s own pride, accusations and demonstrations have all consisted of his attempts to prove his point. Which is, “that man is not worthy of the Glory of Inheritance that God has planned to bestow upon him”. From the disobedience in Eden, until today, he has attempted to draw creation away from God and to himself instead, and to destroy those that will not bow down to him.)

            I have some things that I have to do today so I have to head out.
            I just wanted to at least respond to you here when I had the chance.
            If I have the opportunity later on, I will try to offer some more of my opinions for consideration.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our KING of Righteousness.

            Amen.

    • Hey Accepted and all!

      Well said and I agree completely with everything that you posted. In addition to the following:

      “Rev. 12:15., satan pursues the woman, and spews out of his mouth “water” as a flood, (which could be actual water, or used in its figurative sense as referring to “many people”), in an attempt to destroy Israel the woman.”

      In other Scriptures, water as torrent or river was used symbolically as seen in the following Scriptures:

      “If the Lord had not been on our side—let Israel say—if the Lord had not been on our side when people attacked us, they would have swallowed us alive when their anger flared against us; the flood would have engulfed us,
      the torrent would have swept over us, the raging waters would have swept us away.” (Psalm 124)

      “Then the king of the North will invade the realm of the king of the South but will retreat to his own country. His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress.” (Dan.11:10)

      “This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza:

      This is what the Lord says:

      “See how the waters are rising in the north; they will become an overflowing torrent. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them.” (Jer.47:1-3)

      Notice that in Psalm 124 the people attacking are referred to symbolically as a flood, a torrent and raging waters sweeping over Israel. Then in Dan.11:10, the great army is symbolically spoken of as an irresistible flood to carry them away. Then in Jeremiah 47:1-3, the Philistines are referred to as rising waters to overflow the land and everyting it.

      My take on the dragon spewing water out of his mouth to overtake the woman, would then be in referrence to him sending an army after the Woman Israel.

      Just presenting some Scripture to support your mention of “Many People” for the spewing water.

  82. Yea to all – I do not have any animosity toward any Brother on here. After 13 years teaching what I teach you do have to get a little thicked skinned. Blessed is He that is not offended in me. Jesus was saying HE taught some real hard doctrines that did mess their minds up along with thier traditions.

    I know I sound harsh at times and maybe really get on your nerves,
    But to me its cause “I love you all”. Its like when I got a “New Birth” I just had to tell people about it. And many did not want to here about that either.

    Im gonna try and make my post shorter in the future. I know Im guilty of posting to many subjects in one post.

    I read most everyones post – but I have to admit – its to much to retain in my Mind most the time. I do have alot on my mind these days.

    Love you all in Jesus Name —————– bro. ty

  83. The purpose of this life is to salvation. Where unto God there is only one covenant ,That which Apostle John saw in revelations, unto man come as the old & the new. Abraham obeyed God through faith when God held his hand to the sacrifice & God fulfilled it by sending His Son , the manifestation of the covenant to the fullness of Christ Jesus so that by his life death & resurrection we may be saved which means through the works of the faith(for faith without works is dead, not by faith alone but by Grace alone which grace is entirely off Him, to the faith in the works is to access the Grace. The whole point of salvation is to His Inheritance, to the meaning of the word “IsraEL” from earth just as His inheritance in heaven , the sons of God called the Elohim like unto MichaEL, GabriEL Etc. called the “Principals” For one of them, Michael wrestled with Jacob to the Spiritual significance of the Elohim of God from heaven responsible to gather the Israel(the Elohim from earth), through Christ Jesus, the Lord from heaven. Which finally is to Spiritual Israel, just as in heaven Spiritual indeed. To this is what the Bible states that there is neither Jew nor Gentile. For the Covenant which started from Physical Israel has become Spiritual., which comes about through the revelation of the Arc of the covenant by God in His Mercy as mentioned in 2 Maccabees2 to the fulness of Christ Jesus, this again comes individually in the Spirit, to the personal relationship with God in a given to the words of Jesus off the manner”You know not the Father neither the Son but them unto whom the Son pleases to reveal” for the time has come to this revelation of the covenant when the inheritance of God will be seen just as Moses saw the inheritance(the Glory) as also to His words “Only them drawn to be by my Father will I receive”. To this it is important to ask whether to the present gathering has the inheritance been revealed / The answer is after 60 years not yet,. To this the question arises then what is this gathering, which is but Zionism come by Freemasonry, the corner stone which the builders rejected. Freemasonry come as the manifestation of that “Enmity” which God put between the serpent & the Woman & that which God puts no man put asunder nor compromise but to the end “cause it concerns the salvation of man & to this is the lamb come as the seed of the woman along with the remnant seed, the first fruits of the lamb in the battle mentioned in Rev. Ch 12 against “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt ” to its beliefs & its works, The land of America , born of England governed by Freemasonry having at its roots ancient Egyptian beliefs, If it enslaved Physical israel of old today seeks to enslave man spiritually.

  84. dmcal52 – Right on Bro. – I sure believe that just like you do. Israel being the Bride = Israel of God Gal. 6 – compares also to Rev. 11 – as the two prophets were the Complete bride – Israel of God –

    Please read Rev. 1: 19-20 – also Rev. 2:1 – Notice Ver 20 of chapter 1 – word explains word – Seven candlesticks is the 7 churchs and the 7 stars are the Fold fold ministry in each of the 7 churchs .

    Rev. 11 the 2 Prophets are called Candelsticks – No Apostles or Prophets then no teachers, evangelists, or pastors – they would have no Message to draw from the fountain of life that grows the Tree of Life in each Age.

    This is why there is a difference in enemies in each church age. The last being it all mixed together which is our age and we are the age that ends it all. And are sitting with Christ IN HIS throne – Eph. Paul tells us where the churchs is living. He said in the Heavenlies . Now – My Spirit man is the Celestial Heavenly man – My flesh man is clay= earth and when physical body dies.

    The 2 prophets are very clear – Moses = Israel O.T — Elijah the Gentile Prophet to the little Woman with the 2 sticks in her hand and Elijah saved them both. Israel died = Moses in AD 70 temple gone – everything into desolation until it raised up with Gentiles in this last days. Raised up in Jesus Christ — not another temple worship – God destroyed it forever and there will never be no more temple worship. That belonged to Israel 2,000 years ago. If the Jews did build a temple and started the rituals again it will still be rejected by Christ – Its Christ or nothing. When we gonna get this in our mind and Spirit.

    Satan tried to drown out the N.T bride.= Isael of God = Jew and Gentile. But she could not be drowned. Yet Millions upon millions of people belonged to the “Risen” Papal Rome system of anti-christ church = tares and not Overcomers.

    Remember that Imperial Rome took a deadly wound to her head. The Caesars died with Imperial Rome Rev. 13. But the Pope is now the ONE Caesar that rules the largest Christian church in the world. And you have to bow down to him to Even talk to him.
    THIS IS THE NATION OF PAPAL ROME BUILT BY THE MAN OF SIN=unbelief. Pagan to the core. Killed The Real Christians.

    The Pope claims originality but he is a LIAR and also “Son of Perdition” the Man of Sin as well. Just like Judas sold out yet walked hand by hand with Jesus Christ . But Jesus knew he was the Son of Perdition. He died a “Double Death” Praise God do you get it the Spiritual meaning of that.
    Remember John said they came out from among us but they never was with us in the first place. And People are still looking for the Mark of the beast today. I just cannot help it. Im out of here. Talk to you all later.

    Bro. ty – love you all

    P.S – But the Earth helped the woman. And also – Remember the flying eagle as One of the Powers of God in Rev. 4:7 – God helped them by fleeing to other Nations of the World. God is the Double winged Eagle – and the Nations including Papal Rome are the Beast – the Dragon that tried to kill off and or drown the True Bride of Jesus Christ.

    Lord bless you ——- Bro. ty.

  85. abey said – Dear Brother Im not trying to skip your post it sounds interesting but Just happen to read the other one first. And got carried away in the Sjpirit and just had to write Dmca 52 back.

    Good to know you and want to talk to you as well. First time I seen you on the forum. God bless. ty

  86. To all,

    Ya know, for years I have studied end times.
    I have spent easily over 10,000 hours in just the last 3 years in an effort to attempt to understand God the Fathers plan. And though I don’t believe that it was in vain at all, I’m not sure if “the knowing” itself, is really that important after all?

    What is important though is the “being a disciple”. Not just knowing what that consists of intellectually, but living it out day by day as best as we can.
    By placing others first within our lives and “loving them as He loves us”. That is the Gospel. That is what He asked for us to do and be while we are here.

    Personally, I think that I’m going to focus on doing that for awhile, rather than spending so much time participating here.
    Though I enjoy these discussions, I really don’t see them benefiting others much.
    I will still keep watching, (and waiting).

    But for now I wish all of you every Blessing that is available through Yeshua our Glorious KING of kings.
    Amen.

    Shalom & Love
    Your Servant.

    Buck

  87. Sure Tom we shall talk. In conclusion of my comment, with regard to New Jerusalem, its foundation are the 12 Apostles of Christ & so those who enter the 12 gates need also be of Christ which goes on to say that the 12 tribes of Israel mentioned are to Spiritual Israel

  88. Forgive me for jumping in here Abey, but I wish that people would stop using the term “Spiritual Israel” as to referring to the church, as It produces false interpreations. Because of this, wherever Israel appears in Scripture, expositors are free to apply spiritual Israel to it and viola, Israel becomes the church instead of literal Israel, which is what God meant. Israel is Israel and the church is the church, they are two separate groups. Israel is made up of the decendants of Israel, those who have remained under the Law of Moses and the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile under the new covenant and should not be designated as spiritual Israel, for this is a man-made designation.

    Those who will be able to walk through the gates of the New Jersalem will be those whose names were written in the book of life from before the world was created, the righteous throughout history, those who overcome.

    The names that are written on the tweleve gates of the New Jerusalem are the literal twelve tribes of Israel, which represents the nation Israel and the names of the twelve apostles written on the twelve foundations are the literal names of the twelve apostles representing the church. Both groups, Israel and the church are in view here. Regarding the twenty four elders that surround the throne, I believe that twelve are representing the nation Israel and tweleve are representing the church, the same representing those that are written on the gates and the foundations.

    Let’s call Israel, Israel and the church the church.

  89. Bro. abey — Praise God – I have to agree with most everything you said. It is hard sometimes to get revelation until you read it over and over again.I appreciate your Post. And believe I understand most ot it.

    And the 2nd. Post as well. It was the N.T revelation that bought our inheritance of Eternal life etc. Only One covenant – That is Jesus Christ Sacrifice and resurrection by the Holy Spirit which makes all other covenants void that are spoke of in the O.T. But we know that even Noah it was Grace etc. etc. — The O.T was the School Master only to make men realize they had sinned.

    And Yes Abraham was a Gentile to begin with. We are circumcised by the HOLY GHOST which is the cutting off of the flesh — man. Many cannot understand that today. They think it is just speaking in Tongues and do’s and don’t. God looks at the Heart Praise His Name. If not who could stand. NOBODY – IF God marked down our sins, Davids, Noahs, Moses, on and on. The Blood of Goats etc. was only temporary. Started in Abels day. With the Blood – It was the Blood that got contaminated and passed right on down to all that was under the 1st. Adam.

    If you were to become a Jew – called out and a chosen vessel – The men in O.T had to have circumcision. That was the Shadow of the “Circumcision of our Heart” and the Commandments kept in our heart. Also the Eighth day was when it happened in Abraham’s day. In the N.T era Jesus Christ Resurrection being on the Eighth day. We are in the Eighth day right NOW in this Generation I believe. Its entering into the Ark not just the presence of the Ark – But the Ark itself lives in us. That is why were are Heavenly Beings as I talk. I agree with Jesus and Paul on that. This is the Eighth day resurrection or perish. I could go on and on but I will cut it off here. Lord blessy Abey — Thanks much

    Bro. ty.

    • Greetings Tom -Let us try a little more to understand the Truth of God as to why He planted the tree of good & evil if it was to be a temptation to the fall of man. Planting the tree is but to know the intention of God for had they kept his commandment by not taking of its fruit by resisting the temptation is but to develop the power of resistance which would have drawn them to the tree of life from whence they would have had the knowledge of good & evil without being defiled in it. For today man eaten of the fruit has still not known the difference to calling good & as evil & evil as good in the confusion when God is not an author of confusion, but the adversary of man is, For the Bible does say in the gathering of the harvest the Angels of God would separate the wheat from the tares. The good from the evil. How is that these Angels of God are able to clearly differentiate between the two for they who have not indulged in the tree but to the tree of life.is clear enough. Thus the purpose of God is to differentiate good from evil without being defiled in it. God is good & all that he makes & means is for the good . To this is what Jesus says to the 7 churches in revelations ‘”Just as I overcame so should you” against temptations, even though God is sovereign the one who governs that tree is the devil that is why the Bible calls him the god of this world to the worldly ways come off the fruit of that tree to say a Buddha covered by a multiheaded serpent sitting under a Boda tree speaking of Enlightenment.

  90. To all – only One church Or Two ? Again lets let the Word explain Word –

    ROM 3:29-31 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
    30. – Seeing it is “one God“, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. – — *Note scripture below who that One God was.

    I COR 1:22-24 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a *stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Jews and Greeks all the same –
    A. A Gentiles Started the nation of Israel by Gentile seed of faith. Abraham’s Faith.
    B. Rahab the Harlot was seed of Christ as well. Its in the Bible.
    C. Gentiles could become Part of the Church of Israel the Nation

    I COR 12:13- For by “one Spirit” are we all baptized into “one body“, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into “one Spirit“.
    I COR12:14- For “the body” is not one member, but many.
    A, We are “one body” with a head, arms, hands, fingers, legs, etc. quoting Apostle Paul

    REV. 2:9- I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich ) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. –
    A. Jesus is talking to His “One Church here“. All 7 of them. Complete and Same – Jew and Gentiles.

    REV. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
    B. Saying you are a Jew or Gentile does not mean nothing to God. But possessing the Spirit you become a Citizen of the Nation of the New Jerusalem from Above.

    ROM. 7:14- ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    A. Nationality will not save you never. Only the New Creation by the HOLY SPIRIT.

    I COR. 2:13-16 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    14.- But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are “spiritually discerned“.
    15.- But he that is “spiritual judgeth all things“, yet he himself is judged of no man.
    16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But “we have the mind of Christ“. Praise God for HIS MIND IN US – Rom. 12:1-2 . The Mind is where the “Mark is”. Carnal = destroyed by death, hell, and the grave — Spiritual = Zoe – Life Eternal

    I COR 10: And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that *spiritual Rock that followed them: and that *Rock was Christ.
    A. Im not sorry at all for saying “ Spiritual Understanding” O.T and N.T. Is the Right understanding.
    B. Peter got a Revelation “from God not man” that Jesus was the “Son of God” that is the Rock and hell cannot overcome it. Catholics wake up. It is not the Pope or church you going to. It has to be a Rev-EL -ling by the Spirit after you H-ear-d the Word.

    II CORINTHIANS 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but “they measuring themselves by themselves“, and “comparing themselves among themselves“, — “are not wise“.

    1. Denominations commend themselves by themselves – what’s that mean – They will never listen to another interpretation other than the one they organized around.
    2. This is the Stumbling block mentioned by Paul and John the scribe of Revelation.

    The Stumbling Block
    1. SATAN LIVES IN THE CHURCH
    2. THAT IS THE ONLY WAY YOU COULD GET TWO CHURCH BODIES.
    3. There is ONLY ONE GOD – One Spirit – That makes up the Body – Of 24 Elders
    4. Israel and Gentiles are not complete without each other – Christ make it into ONE BODY. Paul told us in Rom. We were all in Un-belief – Only remnants OVERCOME

    REV-EL-ation. 2:13- I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. —- Satan dwelling as a light among the people of God” – Wheat and Tares

    REV-EL 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a *“stumbling block” before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

    REV.EL 2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

    REV.EL 2:16 Repent; or else I will come-2064 unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the “sword of my mouth“ = “Thus saith the Lord”

  91. Tom and all,

    This is exactly how false teachings begin. Israel should never be referred to as the chruch, for the church did not come into being until Christ appeared and established it. Furthermore, nowhere in Scripture is Israel referred to as the church, nor is the term “Spiritual Israel” used. Israel is and has always been Israel. Jews and Gentiles who have received Christ belong to the church. These are two individual groups. If you don’t believe that, believe what Jesus said:

    “I will [build] my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it!”

    That word “Build” is in the passive present and future tense, meaning that the church did not previously exist prior to Christ coming in the flesh and establishing it. Israel was not and is not the church and never will be. We should not read into Scripture what is not there, for to call Israel the church is complete conjecture. Interpreting Israel as the church and vise versa, allows any expositor to assign the designation of the church anywhere that the word “Israel” is found in Scripture.

    This is exactly the same thing that expositors do when they come across the following Scripture:

    “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.”

    Those who believe that spiritual Israel is another designation for the church, interpret the verse above as being the church and not literal Israel and by doing so distort Scripture. Below are listed the individual dispensations:

    1. The nation Israel/the woman (not the church)

    2. The Church

    3. The 144,000 (not the church)

    4. The great tribulation saints (not the church)

  92. Bro. Don – Lord bless you – The beginning sounded real positive for my Post. Yet the last paragraph and dispensations seem to not line up. You would have to explain it more for me to understand. Your position.

    So I will respond and let you respond on above and below scrioptures .

    In the O.T to recieve Abels faith, Abrahams faith, Noah’s faith, Moses’ faith – Paul said you belonged to the Israel of God Gal. 6:16 I believe. Remeber it was Christ that was in Moses – It was Christ in the Fire, and Cloud that led them to Promised land.

    The Meaning of Israel – is what Jacob became after his encounter with Christ. We are all Princes of God, = “God prevails” – Kings and Priest –

    I PETER 2:7- Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, —stone = revealation by Spirit

    I PETER 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. the stumbling rock and offense is NO REVELATION of what Gods will and New Birth is about.

    I PETER 2:9– But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION , a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    A. Peter is talking about Jew and Gentile both here. As a “Holy Nation” That is the Complete Bride Mentioned in Rev. 14 redeemed from earth.

    The Redeemed – 24 elders around the throne
    REVELATION 5:8- And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    REVELATION 5:9- And they– “sung a new song,”– saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast REDEEMED us to God by thy blood out of “every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; ”
    REVELATION 5:10- And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    The Redeemed
    REVELATION 14:3 – And they sung as it were a “new song before the throne,” and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were REDEEMED from the earth.

    REVELATION 14:6- And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Jesus is the REDEEMER of all mankind out of every nation. Israel is no more special that any other nation or God would be a “respector of Persons”.

    Its the “Elected” of God that is Special to God no matter what you Nationality is. Again I repeat – Nationality will never save or get a man born again. On Jesus the King of all Jews, Believers, Overcomers, in all Nations. Your election is the greatest Gift ever given to man out of all the nations.

    gotta go for now – bro. ty -love you all

    Many do not understand -only a remnant is saved in every nation. That is the theme of the Bible – Even n the end time.

    God bless – bro. ty

  93. To All,

    The moment you sense pride or fear taking over your heart, stop and turn to God.
    Even if you must stop and turn 70 x 7 times, there is hope, since even the desire of “being willing to do God’s will”, refines the heart.
    It is far better to be repeatedly turning to God in brokenness than it is to live under the pretence that you have no need for ongoing deliverance.
    It has been wisely said, “that you cannot widen the narrow way of surrender”.

    Religious people are perhaps most at risk here, since often they fool themselves into believing that passionate commitment requires that they know everything about God, or that they are walking in joy and victory, when the truth is that they are often lonely, hurting and sometimes unsure of themselves…..
    God surely understands your need, and He wants all your heart, not just the parts you might think He wants.

    “The LORD is my strength and my shield; in Him my heart trusts, I am helped and my heart exults, and with my song I give thanks to Him.” Psalm 28:7.

    “By the Grace of God, I am what I am. Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are.” (Kierkegaard).
    And it is only when you can hear, “Never change! I love you just the way you are.”, will you then be free to face who you are.
    “Now with God’s help, I shall become myself.”
    The Miracle belongs to God………

    From Hebrew 4 Christians and John Parsons.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua our Holy Redeemer.
    Amen.

    • To 70 & 7- Cain was accidently killed when he went to visit his wives, by an arrow from his blind grandson, on seeing this Lamach became shocked & exclaimed if Cain be avenged seven times then lamach seventy seven Now Jesus born in the line of David to Abraham spiritually to Seth/Abel said “when you forgive, forgive give not seven but seventy & seven times”. This is all but to understand that basically there are two types of people that of Cain to his mark & that of Abel/Abraham . Where the former lives by curses the latter by blessings . How ever today it is in the mixtures, the saving by Christ is to come out of the curses into the blessings . in general people like the Hindus which consists the old heathen mark their heads & fore arms, especially their priests with things sacrificed unto idols, symbolically representing the mark of Cain as a protection. However to the reason as to why Christ is sent through faith in Him it is required to come out of these marks of living by curses before the appointed time lest it becomes into the mark of the beast.

  94. Accepted – Very good testimony. We mise well be who we are. Cause God knows who we are. You cannot fool God amen.

    Change is very, very hard to say the least. For any Mind, Soul, and Body to change we all have to turn it completely over to the Lord.

    Jesus Learned Obedience by the things He suffered yet without sin.
    None of us our better than our Precious Lord Jesus.

    As I heard Johnathan Cahn say one time ” He was so flawed” yet he was perfect. One of the meanings of the word – Bride – in the O.T means Perfect.

    Your perfect in Christ is what Jesus taught us. Or he died in vain. We turn it all over to HIM period. Salvation is all of God and nothing of ourselves amen.

    Lord bless you Accepted – Im not trying to teach you anything just agreeing with you. Being the Image of Jesus takes a progression that is for sure ——We all learn the hard way . I’m still learning believe me —– bro. ty

  95. For those of you that are unaware, last year at this time of year, I was in a state of what could have been diagnosed as being “psychotic”, (though I don’t for one second believe that it was anything other than the quickening of the Spirit).

    For those that don’t believe in a gathering or rapture, I am not posting here to attempt to convince you otherwise.
    For those that do, I pray that you maintain your Faith and perseverance for we do not know the day or the hour when our Lord will return like a thief in the night.
    Though our redemption draws nigh, I pray that you “Lift Him Up” solely as your Righteousness and defense to be accounted worthy in His eyes.

    Whatever day this takes place, for those that will accompany Him in the clouds, it will be a Glorious day.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our King of kings, our Everything.

    Amen.

  96. Beautifully stated and true . He is softly calling to that narrow path and I fight my sinful self that gets so easily preoccupied .

  97. The Holy Spirit or the Human Spirit
    That thing in you that wants to party and get drunk and turn the radio up and be lustful and slop around in the world and smoke the cigarettes and mark the body up and overindulge all of your senses, with porn and the pride of life….that is not you, That is demons desiring those things and they are making you think it is you as they hide in your flesh and blame you for the wrongs done.

    If you keep on believing that is you, it eventually will be you. Stop believing the Lie! – do not let Satan “transform you” into his likeness.
    If we observe lying vanities we forsake our own mercy!

    The Truth is we all need the Word of God like a sharp knife and Him being the Great Physician. He will by your Faith in His Power separate that evil thing from you and show you it is the devil and that this is why He never charged you with Sin to begin with.

    Paul said this when He spoke of How it was no longer Him doing the evil deeds, that he did not desire those things but it was SIN = or the devils within that did those things and see how he separated Himself from those things and placed the blame where they belonged!

    So you draw close to God, by Faith and deny those evil desires and bad habits and soon they will separate from you and will weaken. But you will grow stronger in the Lord as the old man falls away dead.

    As the proverb says which ever dog you feed the most will be the strongest, so lets start feeding the Inward Spiritual man with Word food from heaven. And watch what happens.

    Jesus struggled with His human spirit in the Wilderness. Talking to him and telling him He could have this and that without a cost. But Jesus Never “bought or sold” out His Heavenly Spirit for natural causes.

    But the 1st. Adam and Eve did. It brought forth a child from hell, a beast called Cain a Possessor and manufacturer of perversions. And a creation that turned into evil gods. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. Cain did not “want to buy” into Gods only way. He wanted to be God himself. = Satan, Devil, Serpent, – Just read the Bible and History you will see there are multitudes of serpents, and beasts, “willingly sold out” their Spiritual man to their Human flesh. And would do anything just for the POWER to rule.

    The Devil will Kill to Rule the people. But Jesus = God died on the Cross for His people to have the REAL POWER to not transform into a satan’s.

    God bless – bro. ty

  98. Tom York and all,

    Great reply/comment ty.

    Marianne posts on Jezebel are excellent. If folks can comprehend and translate Jezebel behaviors to demonic spirits taking a “stronghold” within the flesh (mind – emotions, behaviors) then manifesting in words and actions – I pray they will comprehend the oppression of other evil spirits. 

    We are at war, wrestling against “principalities  and powers”. Pride is a evil spirit.  It has a name, Leviathan – the monarch over pride.   

    Fear is a spirit (2 Tim 1:7). If “fear” is an evil spirit then we can name other “negative, bad, oppressive, depressing, dirty, evil” behaviors and actions. 

    “Take every thought captive” takes new meaning, yes? 

    Stop that “spirit” before it gets a “stronghold” and controls thoughts, emotions, behaviors and actions – so that the person walks in darkness and not in the light.

    If even Believers comprehend the oppressive work of the demonic spirit of “Jezebel” – they should consider this short list of feelings and behaviors as evil spirits oppressing them, which can take a stronghold upon them. Yes, these spirits can even a oppress or gain a stronghold
    upon a Believer/Christian.

    Fear, anger, anxiousness, gossip, bitterness, pride, worry, sharp tongue, cursing, frustration, lust (all forms: money, possessions, sex, food – “lust of the flesh”).

    “…For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace, (Romans 8:2-6 NKJV). 

    For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord, (Ephesians 5:8-10 NKJV).

    http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/spiritual_warfare.php

    http://www.greatbiblestudy.com/strongholds.php

    Blessings
    Psalm 18

  99. Praise God DJ –

  100. To All
    Is the Kingdom in the Earth or Heaven? According to Paul’s Revelation.

    ROMANS 14:17
    For the “KINGDOM OF GOD” is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

    Bro. ty

    • Tom,

      Wouldn’t your question depend on what “kingdom” you happen to be referring to?

      We (the followers of Yeshua), are the good seed and the children of the kingdom.
      Matthew 13:38.;
      “The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];”

      Yeshua states in John 18:36.;
      “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but “now” is my kingdom not from hence.” (notice the “NOW” in the preceding).

      Paul states in 1 Corinthians 15:50.;
      “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

      So as it stands right now… here on earth… Yeshua’s kingdom is not here and now, (though as the children of the kingdom, the Holy Spirit is within us, Luke 17:21.).

      Yet He will return and restore all things and Rule and Reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years. It is at that time that His Kingdom and His Throne will be here on earth.

      So in my opinion, your question, “Is the Kingdom in the Earth or in Heaven?” requires more specificity to be able to address it accurately.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy Everything.

      Amen.

    • the kingdom is spirit, but it lives inside us as we walk around here on earth

  101. Tom,

    “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven” (Matthew 5:14-16,NKJV).

    The Kingdom “invaded”  you, as a Believer in Christ Jesus and Him crucified.

    For the Kingdom is – “righteousness, peace and the Joy of the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17). 

    Who is the King of Righteousness? Jesus. My righteousness is but filthy rages. I am clothed (spiritually) covered by the Blood of the Lamb (by faith), making me righteous (spiritually).

    Who is the Prince of Peace? Jesus. The peace He gives, not as the world gives.

    Holy Spirit is within you, yes?

    “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?” (1 Corinthians 3:19, NKJV).

    Jesus tells us in Luke 17:21 “For indeed, the Kingdom of God is within you” (NKJV).

    God Bless you in your walk – as His light within the world, Romans 13:3.  proceeding and walking in the light as His servant and as a warrior for the Kingdom (Joel 2:11).

    The Lord is with His people (Psalm 27:1-3).

    Blessings
    Psalm 20

  102. Well Praise the Lord – at least we getting closer –

    DJ – Loved your response – A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden
    What is the name of that City – That lives in you all. To me that is:
    Jerusalem – anything with an M at the end in Hebrew has a plural meaning to it. Same as our S.

    Paul told us the Mystery – Their is a Natural Jerusalem – But we are in the “Jerusalem that is from Above”. – while we living in a flesh body –
    GAL 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. – Free from what – the law , the riturals, Ceremony, – “Where the Spirit is there is Liberty”. Praise God

    MATT.6:33 But seek ye first the “kingdom of God”, and” His” righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    Here Jesus is talking about your economy verses the Worlds. Jesus is the “King” of Kingdom of God or Heaven same thing. Every Kingdom has a Ruler ruling over it. Jesus is the Light of our City and Holy Nation we live in.

    Now we can read and understand the Next verse below.

    MATT 6:34- Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
    Most people who want to live in the future. Because they cannot seem to Overcome in this World below. So yes that would be an attractive Seducing Spirit to say the least.

    “Dear Accepted” – the 1,000 years is a symbol – No man has lived to be over 1,000 years old. Once we Have Jesus the King we are a Citizen in the Everlasting Kingdom of God or Heaven. We never grow old. Not talking about our flesh man. But our Spiritual man. The Celestial being. Proves the Rapture has already taken place in our “Transformation” from Tree of Death to Tree of life. = This is what I believe – but I respect your side. Just look up all the times it talks about the number 1,000 in your whole bible and see what it says about.

    Marianne – You see it – But – Do we believe in Gods Providing us with all things from His Kingdom so you can Overcome while on “Earth”.
    Rev.5 The whole church rejoiced – When they seen the Lamb slain. Before that Jew and Gentile both were doomed. God Himself paid the price for our freedom.

    God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    And Yet lives in the heart of the Believer – Death has no sting. Death has been conquered by our Testimony of Jesus Christ and the Love we have even death of the Flesh man. We are the “Kingdom Children” in my humble opinion.

    Love you all – God bless you -bro. ty

    • Dear Tom,

      In my opinion the 1000 year reign is not symbolic but is rather to be taken literally.
      Revelation 20:4.;
      “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

      Yeshua will return, sit on his throne of Glory, and hold judgement over nations.
      Matthew 25:31.;
      “When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:”

      It is during this 1000 year time frame that Yeshua will rule and reign and have His government in a literal Jerusalem, when people will go there to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. Zechariah 14:16.;
      “And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.”

      You are welcome to your opinion Tom, but we agree to disagree regarding our theology. I don’t believe that any of the above is to be taken symbolically, but is rather to be understood in its literal sense. Because how would one take the punishment of not attending this feast symbolically?

      Be Blessed in Yeshua Melech Kavod.
      Amen,

    • Tom,
      So you believe the Second Coming has already happened? So what happens next? Is Jesus coming a third time?

      • Hello Accepted and all,

        Very true Accepted, the millennial period is a literal thousand years, which follows that last seven years in which Christ will reign on this present earth and it is that same thousand years in which Satan will be restricted to the Abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations during that time. As a proof of this, though there are many Scriptures pretaining to the millennial period, I am listing this one:

        “He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

        At what time in the history of the world have men ever beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks and have not trained for war? That would be ….. never! During the time of the millennium there will be no more wars. Other characteristics of that thousand years described in Scripture is that, prey and predator animals will lie side by side, a young child will lead a lion around by his mane and will stick his hand in a Cobra’s den and not be harmed at all. If a man dies at 100 years old he will be thought to be a mere child.

        The thousand year reign of Christ is just as literal and real as the time of wrath that is coming on this earth, consisting of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. I once got into a debate with someone who said the same thing regarding the New Jerusalem, stating that Scripture wasn’t speaking of a literal city, but as symbolic. That’s an awful lot of detail for something to be symbolic, not to mention the fact that it is also mentioned by Paul in Heb.11:16 and also by the Lord in Rev.22:19, which is outside the narrative.

  103. Accepted and all.
    Yeshua states in John 18:36.;
    “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but “now” is my kingdom not from hence.” (notice the “NOW” in the preceding).

    To me this is very clear. If it were of the world then His servants would fight.
    The Truth is that Christ Kingdom had NOT COME into realization as of yet. He had to Die and Resurrect to establish His Kingdom. “And to send back His Spirit into them”.
    He had to go away. Then the “Kingdom would come” on the day of Pentecost. Watch the warfare after that in Book of Acts. They were fearless and filled with Power from on high and received the Revelation of Jesus Christ and perceived the Will of God. God’s will be done in earth as it is in heaven”.

    ROM 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.=killing people etc. waring in the flesh, and rioting etc. etc.
    9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10. ¶ And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life=zoe because of righteousness.
    11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also “quicken” your “mortal bodies” by the Spirit-person of Christ – that dwelleth “in you“.

    Look up “quicken” – 2227 -2226 – from a dead man that was a beast=literally to a risen man full of the Spirit of life =Zoe —
    This should show people that is a Rapture, You go from Carnal- beast 2226, to Spiritual Son of God in this life. Transformation NOW

    Please look up – “Raised up” – through the idea of collecting one’s faculties);
    When Jesus was Raised up again – same word collecting one’s faculties. Remember the above scripture Paul is talking to LIVE PEOPLE that can be raised up and or Quickened. = raptured. Back to Heavenly Places in Christ. Before we were ever born. Yea its supernatual. We were born in sin and went on a detour till Christ found us and healed us of amnesia. Then we cried Abba Father – Save me – Im lost

    Accepted – I’m for you – not against you – I do not believe this should be hard to believe. Its pretty plain. No Interpretation needed to me.

    Our fight is All Spiritual in the sense we have to kill that human spirit that rules are flesh, mind, and soul that use to could not be tamed. The Lion now has laid done with the Lamb. Jesus put our names in the “Lambs book of Life for to be Eternal beings. He is our Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

    Satan is also – Roaring Lion
    Jesus laid down his life for to give Spiritual victory over the “Roaring lion that wanted to sift Peter to powder”.= the carnal mind – Hope you see it. Peter was a perfect example of trying to become a Christian without the Spirit of God in him as the other disciples were as well. And they lost the battle till they were filled with the Holy Spirit on day of Pentecost.

    Lord bless you – these are my Opinions – Not trying to anger no one. ty

    • of course, jesus said that BEFORE he died….his kingdom was in heaven then…..only through his death did he take back the rights to the earth to establish a kingdom there.

    • Tom,

      I am for you too….. just not your theology.

      You ask for me to look up the Greek for “quicken” in Romans 8:11., where you say that its definition consists of, “from a dead man that was a beast = literally to a risen man full of the Spirit of life = Zoe”. Which you then say, “This should show people that is a Rapture, You go from Carnal- beast 2226, to Spiritual Son of God in this life. Transformation NOW”

      The Greek word that was translated into the English “quicken” there, “ζῳοποιέω”, transliterated as “zōopoieō” is not defined solely as you have stated above, but is rather defined by Strong’s as “(1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young. (2) to cause to live, make alive, give life. (2a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate. (2b) to restore to life. (2c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life. (2d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life. and (3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing.”

      The Greek word that is associated with “beasts” would be a different word. It is the Greek “ζῷον”, or the transliterated “zōon” as utilized within Hebrews 13:11.

      But instead of arguing whether or not this “quickening” is the “rapture” as you believe, or if the blessing of the Spirit on Shavu’ot was indeed Yeshua’s 2nd coming, why don’t we simply look at 1 Thessalonians 4:17. and the transliterated word “harpazō”, (since that is where Jerome utilized the Latin “raeptius” in the Vulgate and from where the English word rapture was derived).

      1 Thessalonians 4:17. reads as follows;
      “Then we which are alive [and] remain “shall be caught up” together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

      The English “shall be caught up” above within quotations was translated from the transliterated “harpazō”.
      Harpazō being defined as “(1) to seize, carry off by force. (2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly. (3) to snatch out or away.” (This is the same definition of the Latin word rapio “to seize, snatch, tear away.”)

      Now, if the “rapture” was the giving of the Holy Spirit on Shavu’ot or Pentecost, why was the church at Thessalonica concerned that they had somehow missed it?
      Why did Paul have to reassure them that they hadn’t if it was something that had already occurred and taken place?

      Riddle me that one.

      Be blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our returning KING of Glory.
      Amen.

      P.S. please also read Don’s two posts to you as well.

  104. Tom,

    You said:
    “Yeshua states in John 18:36.;
    “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but “now” is my kingdom not from hence.” (notice the “NOW” in the preceding).”

    Jesus was speaking of that particular visit, that is, it wasn’t his plan to be crowned king and to set up shop on the earth at that time. But his purpose at that time was to meet the righteous requirments of the Law of Moses and to pay the penalty for sin by the shedding of his blood. Then after his resurrection, he accended to the right hand of God the Father where he ever makes intercession for us. So, the Scripture above was not saying that he would not have his kingdom here, but that it wasn’t to take pace during that time, because that visit was for the purpose of redeeming mankind. There is a literal thousand years that he will rule on this earth and the old testament saints, the resurrected church, the caught up 144,000 and the great tribulation saints who resurrect in Rev.20:4, we will all reign with him during that 1000 years.

    You are applying the spiritual/symbolic where it is not required.

    • LOL.

      Actually Don…. I said that, and Tom was quoting my post.
      Nevertheless you expounded on the point that I was making.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua brother.

      A.

  105. dmcal 52 – Accepted – Well to each their own – ty

    The interpretation of Raised up – Means what it says = Raised up – That is a literall meaning – Caught up, Raised up, Called out, Pasted from Death unto Life. Transformed, Resurrected, Jesus said He was the “Resurrection and life”. After raising Lazrus from dead.
    He said in Matt. 6:33 The Kingdom of God was Seeking Him = Jesus. A Person – The real person in you is a Spirit. That controls you.

    Theme of it all said “Raised up” – through the idea of collecting one’s faculties); — Faculties is from Fallen to Risen – from dead in sin and trespasses to Life Eternal. I put alot in there that goes un-noticed. You are mortal until you have Zoe life. You raised from a beast to a real Man. We know that beast do not have eternal life. that is your New Birth, Translation, Quickening, Resurrection in the Spirit of God.

    The 2227 and 2226 is talking about the same thing.

    Got to go for now. Lord bless your faculties to Raise up into the Spirit realm is my prayer – (smile)——God bless – bro. Ty

    PS – I have showed on this forum more than once that Satan has a “Rapture” as well. There are only 2 spirits – one is pulling you down – the other is pulling you up. Think about that.

    • Tom,

      Could you please just address the above regarding 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

      If the “rapture” was the giving of the Holy Spirit on Shavu’ot or Pentecost, why was the church at Thessalonica concerned that they had somehow missed it?

      Why did Paul have to reassure them that they hadn’t if it was something that had already occurred and taken place?

      Do you remember meeting the dead when you received the Holy Spirit and meeting Yeshua in the clouds?

      Thanks

      • Oh and Tom,

        While you are in the process of answering the above, perhaps you can also riddle me this as well?
        Peter says within his 2nd epistle 3:3,4.;

        “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.”

        How or why, if Yeshua’s second coming was that of the Holy Spirit on Shavu’ot, would anyone be able to wonder and say, “Where is the promise of his coming?” if that had already occurred? They would have nothing to “scoff” at then in the last days would they?

        Be Blessed in Yeshua our KING of Righteousness.
        Amen.

  106. I would also add the following:

    “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”

    The above Scripture would infer that when these two men were erroneously teaching that the reusrrection and catching away had already taken place, Paul’s response shows that it was still a future event. Notice that he says, that by preaching that the resurrection had already taken place, they were destroying the faith of some. The reason for that is, since the catching away immediately follows the resurrection of the dead in Christ, those believers who were still alive and waiting for that event would be concerned as to why they were still on earth and had not been caught up. Furthermore, they would be worried because what follows would be the wrath of God. In any case, Paul still considered the catching away to be a future event and in fact is still a future event to us as well, but much, much closer.

    • Don,
      Yes exactly! (2 Timothy 2:16-18.)

      Obviously by what Paul states here, to teach that the resurrection has already happened is in error and is not the truth.
      Therefore we must do what Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:15.;
      “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

      Be Blessed in Yeshua.

  107. Well Accepted: here is your answer to first question: I hope you want to know the truth enough to really study this not just read it real fast.
    Hope this helps you in your quest for the revelation of truth.
    1 Thess. 4:13-18

    JN. 17:15– also contradicts the “literal rapture” view:
    “I do not ask You to take them out of the world“, but to keep them from the evil one.” Lets proceed

    This is the view I BELIEVE. Here is how I understand I Thess. 4:13-17….
    The Thessalonians had been enduring, and were continuing to endure, “persecutions” / “sufferings” / “afflictions.” (I Thess. 1:6; 2:14; 3:3-4; II Thess. 1:4-6) Because of this, Paul had been as a father “consoling” them, (I Thess. 2:11-12) and was concerned that they might be “drawn aside,” or “swayed,” by their afflictions.” (I Thess. 3:2-5)

    If this happened, then the Thessalonians might have grieved over their sufferings “as do the rest who have no hope.” (See II Cor. 7:10) For this reason, Paul encouraged them to continue to endure, to be strengthened in the Faith, and not to be “drawn aside.” (II Thess. 2:16-17)

    It was because of this need for comfort in the midst of persecutions that Paul reminded the Thessalonians that they would soon be glorified with their loved ones who had “fallen asleep through Jesus,” (I Thess. 4:17-18; 5:10-11) and that they would thenceforth be “forever with the Lord.”

    According to “the word of the Lord,” the dead in Christ were to rise first. (I Cor. 15:23,52) They were to rise out from their place of resting and waiting, (cf. Rev. 6:9-11) and God was going to bring them “with Him” at His Parousia. Thereupon, the living were to be “caught up together with them” in glory, as the Lord poured out His wrath on the enemies:

    …Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! (Zech. 14:5)

    …so that He may establish your hearts unblamable in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. (I Thess. 3:13)

    Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds that they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. (Jude 14-15)

    …Behold, a white horse, and He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True; and in righteousness He judges and wages war. …And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. (Rev. 19:11,14; cf. Rev. 19:19)

    The suffering and dying believers of the Last Days, such as those at Thessalonica, were soldiers of God’s heavenly armies, (I Cor. 14:21-22; Rev. 19:14) and judges in His heavenly court. (Dan. 7:22-27; I Cor. 6:2-3; Rev. 18:20; 20:4) Through their enduring faith and prayers, (Rev. 8:3-5) the “destroying mountain” of persecuting Israel was cast into the sea. (Jer. 51:25; Matt. 21:21; Mk. 11:23; Rev. 8:8) The cursed “fig tree” was cast into the flames, (Matt. 21:19; Mk. 11:14; Rev. 14:19) and the world of the evil one was conquered. (I Jn. 5:4,19) These things happened when God poured out His vengeance upon Israel for all the blood of His holy ones. (Matt. 23:35; Lk. 18:8; 21:22; Heb. 10:26-31; Rev. 6:9-11; 19:2)

    In that Great Day, the Lord Jesus descended from Heaven in the glorious City of God, the “New Jerusalem,” (I Thess. 4:16; Rev. 3:12; Rev. 21:2,11,23) that is, the universal Church. (Jn. 3:29; Rev. 19:7; 21:2,9; cf. Matt. 16:28; Lk. 17:20-21) He was “formed” in the hearts of His people, (Gal. 4:19; II Peter 1:19) when He and the Father made Their Abode / Dwelling in each and every believer. (Jn. 14:3,23; Eph. 3:17)

    The universal Church was “gathered” (Matt. 3:12; 24:31; 13:30; Mk. 13:27; Lk. 3:17; II Thess. 2:1) in that it became the eternal “Tabernacle of God.” (Rev. 21:3; II Cor. 5:8; Eph. 2:21-22) In this sense, God “changed” the Church (I Cor. 15:52) so that she became “like Him,” (I Jn. 3:2) and attained “to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.” (Eph. 4:13; cf. I Cor. 15:49)

    Believers were revealed with the Lord in spiritual, heavenly glory (“air” / clouds”) when God’s wrath against Israel made it manifest that Jesus’ disciples are the true sons of God. (Rom. 8:17,19; Col. 3:4; II Thess. 1:6-10)

    Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie– behold, I will make them to come and bow down at your feet, and to know that I have loved you. (Rev. 3:9)

    God “snatched” (raptured), or rescued, His believers from His wrath (I Thess. 1:10) and from the persecutions of the evil one. (I Thess. 3:5; II Thess. 1:7; 3:3) He “plucked” them out of the then-present “evil age.” (Gal. 1:4) This happened when the fury of the Roman Empire came against the Jews, and when the Jews were consumed by civil war. These catastrophies befell the sons of the old covenant with increasing intensity from A.D. 66-70. It was in those years that the Church on Earth found “relief” (II Thess. 1:7) and was protected from her afflictions, as her persecutors (the Jews) were “shattered.” (Dan. 12:1-7)

    Since our Lord came with His saints and destroyed the earthly temple in A.D. 70, (Heb. 9:8) “God Himself” has dwelt “among men;” (Rev. 21:3) and through the power of His resurrection, the Church of all ages, the living and the dead, lives and reigns in glory with Him forever. (Rom. 6:8; II Cor. 13:4; II Tim. 2:11-12)

    For if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living. (Rom. 14:8-9)

    In Jesus name — bro. ty

    • Tom,

      I do not believe that John 17:15., contradicts anything we are discussing here whatsoever and is instead speaking of a completely different subject, so I won’t bother to address it and get side tracked.

      I had asked for you personally to address my questions, so why did you instead, just copy and paste something from some Preterist site, (which really goes sideways and doesn’t necessarily address the questions)?

      ???

    • Tom,

      If I may jump in. Regarding:

      “JN. 17:15– also contradicts the “literal rapture” view:
      “I do not ask You to take them out of the world“, but to keep them from the evil one.”

      The above does not contradict the ressurection and catching away. Jesus, in his prayer is saying, “I do not ask you to take them out of the world” meaning, at that moment in time. But that statement does not infer that they would never be removed, since it is obvious from 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:50-53 that the dead in Christ are going to rise and then immediately after, those who are still alive will be caught up just as it is stated.

      You have to take all Scripture into account to come to a logical conclusion. What you are doing is reading one and then spiritualizing the other because it doesn’t fit with what you were taught or your own conclusion.

  108. Accepted or anyone
    “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.”

    Jesus said – He’s already ‘come” and ye did not know it. God = The Spirit sent John the Baptist to testify of the “Coming of the Lord” – Who believed him. Not only did they not believe John a Sent one – an angel messenger before the great but dreadful day in Jesus 1st. coming. They killed Jesus the one who he introduced. Jesus came to his own and his own did not and could not recieve it. – The harlots, And scum of the earth, the ignorant, sinners is the one that gladly recieved Jesus.

    Same today. When John came – Jesus was already on the Earth as well.
    When Rev. 10:7 Come which is history NOW – Jesus had already come.
    As John in first Coming So is 7th. Angel messenger of the 2nd. coming.

    But you would have to have an “Ear to hear” What the Trumpet said – and most do not have a ear to hear nothing but the “dogma” of False Prophets. Which Jesus said would be plentiful in His day and His day today as well.

    The Little woman at the Well in St. Jh 4 – said I percieve you are a Prophet. All Jesus did was tell her past to her and she dropped the water pot and Said I percieve though are a prophet. Went back to her town and said come see a man that told me all things is this not the Messiah or Coming one. They went to see what most call fanaticism today. And believed. And they were accused by the Jew. Jesus told her she knows not who you worship. Most today cannot even understand the God head. Let alone anything else.

    Now Take the Great Sanhedrin and Pharisee theologians. Jesus did the same things to them. He Knew their Hearts and answered their questions before they ever asked him. Raised the Dead, healed the Sick, — and they Called him a devil. People need to be careful who they call names to.

    Can you agree with me on this post. We might be entertaining an Angel un-aware. Every Angel in the Bible is smybolic of Christ – THEE ANGEL OF THE LORD

    out for now – bro. ty

    • if everything is over with, why isn’t jesus back to rule on earth, or why aren’t we all in heaven.

      this earth is hell.

      • There are so many holes in this type of theology it makes Swiss cheese look like a solid chunk.
        🙂

    • Tom, please answer this one question for me. When did the Last Trumpet blow?

    • Tom,

      You said:
      ““Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.”

      This means exactly what it says, that in the last days, meaning the days immediately leading up to his coming, that those types of people listed above, the unbelievers, would be scoffing against believers who will say and are saying, “where is the promise of his coming” because everything is going on as it always has from the beginning and he hasn’t shown up yet.

      You said:
      “Same today. When John came – Jesus was already on the Earth as well. When Rev. 10:7 Come which is history NOW – Jesus had already come. As John in first Coming So is 7th. Angel messenger of the 2nd. coming.”

      Here is the verse in Rev.10:7

      “And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

      The meaning of the mystery being accomplished when the seventh trumpet sounds is what follows the seventh trumpet which are the last of God’s plagues, the seven bowl judgments, which are said to be last because with them the wrath of God is completed (Rev.15:1). As proof that Jesus has not yet returned to the earth to end the age and set up his millennial kindom, he interjects the following after the sixth bowl judgment is poured out which says:

      “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

      According to the verse above, Jesus will have not returned even by the time of the sixth bowl judgment. We have no signs that need to be fulfilled in order for the resurrection and catching away to take place. But in regards to his return to end the age and set up his millennial kingdom the world would have had to experience the following:

      1. First seal/white horse – Man of lawlessness revealed. He makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints and is given power over all the inhabitants of the earth whose names that were not written in the book of life from before the world began.

      2. Second seal/Red horse – Peace taken from the earth so that men slay each other. As turbulent as the world is today, it will be nothing in comparison when that red horse comes out. For I don’t believe that it will just be armies fighting, but people within their own countries.

      3. Third seal/Black horse – Famine

      4. Fourth seal/Pale horse – Death and Hades are given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. That fourth of the earth’s population refers to the immediate population of that time and not stretched over period of two millennia. If that was the case, no one would even notice. But if it is a fourth of the immediate population at that time, then people will surely notice.

      5. First Trumpet – A third of the earth and trees are literally going to be burnt up, yet the world has not experienced this event. Not only that, but if you have a third of the earth and trees being burnt up, then you are also going to have a lot fatalities which are just not mentioned.
      After all, you can’t have a third of the earth and trees being burnt up and not have people caught in it.

      6. Second Trumpet – Something like a huge mountain all ablaze being thrown into the sea. Ibid, it is all ablaze because John is seeing it entering the earths atmosphere and the result is, all the creatures in that body of water will die equaling a third over all the earth and all the ships in that body of water will be destroyed equaling a third over all the earth. What is not mentioned is that, the destruction and death will be coming from the gigantic waves that will be generated from this object, possibly an asteroid, hitting in one of the oceans. Again, what is not mentioned is how many fatalities from all the people on those ships, not to mention all the fatalities in the cities that will be exposed on every shore of that body of water, which will be utterly destroyed, including the cities and towns far inland. Now we are getting an idea of what God meant when he prophecied through Isaiah regarding the day of the Lord saying, “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Isa.13:12)

      7. Third Trumpet – A great star blazing like a torch falling on a third of the rivers and fresh water. The result will be [many] people dying due to drinking this contaminated water. It sounds like nuclear contamination to me.

      8. Fouth Trumpet – A third of the sun, moon and stars are darkened, so that the earth is only receiving 2/3’s of the light that it normally does for both night and day. Possibly setting the scene for the next three trumpets Woes.

      9. Fifth Trumpet/First Woe – A star/angel opens the Abyss and out of it comes demonic beings with tails and stings like scorpions. Their only purpose is to torment with their stings for five months. During this time, men will seek death, but death will elude them. Meaning they will be forced to endure the torment. Haven’t seen any of those things around have ya? No we haven’t and that’s because the Abyss hasn’t been opened yet.

      10. Sixth Trumpet/Second Woe – Four evil angels released from the great river Euphrates to kill a third of mankind. These four angels go and gather 200 million demonic beings from the Abyss that will have previously been opened at the fith trumpet and these demonic beings will kill a third of the inhabitants by the fire, smoke and sulfur that comes out of their mouths. That is a third that is left after the fourth that were killed at the fourth seal and all the fatalities caused from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 that we don’t have a percentage on.

      11. Seventh Trumpet/Third Woe – There was war in heaven and Satan and his angels will finally be thown out of heaven, but [Woe] to earth and to the sea for the devil has gone down to you and he is filled with fury. At that time, he and his angels will be able to concentrate soley upon the inhabitants of the earth, ergo, the Woe.

      Now, I’m not gonna go through all of the bowl judgments and their possible fatalities, but my point was to show that, all of the above must take place before the Lord returns to end the age and set up his millennial kingdom. This is that time that Daniel and the Lord spoke of when they said, there would be a time of great distress [unequaled] from the beginning of the world, till now and never to be equarled again (Dan.12:1, Mt.24:21). Everything above are literal events that must take place. The only way that you can justify your position is by spiritualizing everything, so that they are not literal events.

      Thank God that the resurrection and catching away takes place before all of that wrath!

      PS Sorry everyone for the length

      • these are certainly getting to be long discussions….I hope they are benefiting people

        • Well Marianne,

          If all of this only helps “one” come to the realization that there are just too many loose ends within this form of theology for its teachings to be correct, then it would be worth all of the effort.

          2 Timothy 2:18., should have been the “nail in the coffin” regarding this discussion, that the rapture / resurrection has simply not taken place yet!

          To suggest that it has would be as Paul says, a message of idle babblings, (empty chatter), of ungodliness, and from those that have strayed from the truth.

          It is right there plain as day within Holy Scripture.
          You can continue to argue with that, or accept God at his Word.
          That would be the choice of the individual.

          Be Blessed in Yeshua our Blessed Redeemer.
          Amen.

  109. if everything is over with, why isn’t jesus back to rule on earth, or why aren’t we all in heaven.

    this earth is hell.

    Dear Marianne: It just seems you all can just not grasp it.
    That is what I have been trying to tell everybody on this forum for over a year.

    If Jesus Christ Is living IN YOU – you are not living under the CURSE any longer. Period. Its your Faith which comes from the Holy Spirit. Im in the World but “not of it”. Hell might want to sit on my door step but I RISE ABOVE it by Faith. Its not me – Its the Lord that Carries me.

    You are not appointed to WRATH – That is to be LOST and have no COVERING of PROTECTION for you SOUL and or Spirit Man. The Soul is the Nature of the Spirit. That is your REAL MAN – THAT IS WHO YOU ARE. A Spiritual being. Flesh is going back to earth =dust.

    But you live in the ARK of God – and escape the death, hell and the grave = wrath of God.
    By our resurrection NOW that Jesus gave us. Jesus said HE was THE RESURRECTION and life – why is it so hard for people to understand that. The Person of Jesus Christ is the Whole Revelation of Salvation to all of mankind. Given to us by GOD = the SPIRIT that lives in us now. We just lift up our hands and surrender it all to HIM.

    Then your struggle is gone. Death where is thy sting. Grave =same as hell and death – all mean the same. Has no Power over you. You have been Risen with Christ when He Rose you Rose before the foundation of the World – He Knew you – By Faith you just Believe that and go on.

    I have had plenty trials in my days. But God delivereth me from them ALL. WHY – Cause I am a Child of the KING –

    Let Jesus Christ completely RULE YOUR EARTH – Adams flesh come from the Earth. But His Spirit is from Heaven. Why is this so hard to us to understand.

    Cause we have not been taught it. That is why.

    I care for you Sister – Im doing my best to try and shed some light but it just seems to go over everybodies head. is it Traditions ? Or is it that we will not let Rom. 12:1-2 transform our minds into the MIND OF CHRIST.

    Shalom and God bless your heart — bro. ty

  110. Tom, please answer this one question for me. When did the Last Trumpet blow?

    toddottt said this on May 20, 2013 at 2:16 am |

    Reply- When the 7th. Angel messenger sounded in the Book of Rev. Chapter 10 and 11 —

    Rev. Chapter 11:15-17 – plainly states that the “Kingdom’s of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

    Now if you will read ver. 17 oh Lord God Almighty “which art” = present – which wast = Past – then is says and “art to come”

    But “art to come” is not in the original manuscripts of the Book of Revelation. You can check me out on that on the internet.

    That makes the 7th. Angel Messenger which was a man just like John the Baptist introduced The Word = Jesus Christ –

    Rev. 10 Prophet was given the Mystery of the Thunders and just as Moses did. Gave it to the People and that was the “coming of the Lord” just like in Moses day – Jesus came to Abraham did he not – Noah built the ARK – that was symbolic of Jesus Christ – these types and shadows are very clear in the Bible.

    Rev. 10 – Just read it – Jesus came to earth In Moses, Abraham, Noah, Elijah – the Baptist – etc. etc. And he has did the same thing today.

    The Mystery of God is out like never before since the 1st coming. But as in Jesus day so is our day. People are hard to the truth. For the love of God has grown cold in most christians. They are not what they say they are.

    And with Jesus Christ and the Bible – many times “things are not as they seem” Ask the multitudes that died the 2nd. Death.

    Now you can believe it or not. —-

    Lord bless you Dear Brother – Be open to Christ and He will guide you to all truth. bro. ty

    • Tom that is simply preposterous!

      You continue to make claims that have no foundation and can be easily refuted.
      I have already provided this for you before, either on this thread somewhere, or somewhere else on this site.
      Within the original Alexandrian Greek Text of Revelation 11:17 it is recorded as follows.

      “λέγοντες εὐχαριστοῦμέν σοι κύριε ὁ θεὸς ὁ παντοκράτωρ [ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν ὅτι εἴληφας] τὴν δύναμίν σου τὴν μεγάλην καὶ ἐβασίλευσας”

      The “ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν ὅτι εἴληφας” in brackets above [ ] is transliterated as “ho ōn kai ho ēn kai ho erchomenos” and say’s “He who is, and was, and is coming” !

      Do you think that the translators were just making this stuff up as they went, (as apparently you are)?
      You ask us to listen to your position and how you interpret the Word, yet you say that things don’t exist when they clearly do, and you disregard what we believe to be the proper interpretation of Scripture.
      How else can you understand 2 Timothy 2:15-18. quoted here from the New International Version so it can be plainly understood.

      “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”

      Paul clearly states that Hymenaeus and Philetus have departed from the truth by saying that the resurrection has already taken place, which is exactly what you have been saying as well. How can you continue to teach what is clearly contrary to God the Fathers Word?

      A.

  111. Tom,

    The 7th trumpet is not sounded in chapter 10, but is sounded in chapter 11:15.

    You said:
    “Rev. Chapter 11:15-17 – plainly states that the “Kingdom’s of this world have become the Kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

    Rebut:
    The statement above is also repeated in chapter 12:10 –

    “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah.”

    So, if the statement is being made in chapter 11, which according to you brings everything to an end, how then can the same statement be made in chapter 12:10 regarding Satan and his angels being cast out?

    These statements do not infer that everything ends at the moment following the statement, for there are still seven bowl judgments left to complete God’s wrath after the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

    You said:
    “Now if you will read ver. 17 oh Lord God Almighty “which art” = present – which wast = Past – then is says and “art to come”

    But “art to come” is not in the original manuscripts of the Book of Revelation. You can check me out on that on the internet.

    Rebut:
    The words “Art to come” in 11:17 are pretty much found in the KJV’s and a couple of other translations. But, the full statement of “The Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come” is in fact stated in Rev.4:8 by the four living beings. Therefore, that it is stated elsewhere in Scripture would support it as being true even though the “are to come” is not present in 11:17. Besides that, I don’t know what your point is in bringing this up.

    Just an FYI, pretty much everywhere that angels are mentioned in Revelation, except the angels of the seven churches, which I believe is referring to the overseers/pastors, are literal angels. The four living beings are Cherub’s (Ker-oob), which are a special rank of angelic beings that were seen by Ezekiel, Isaiah and by John, but Ezekiel gives us the greatest detail of these Cherub’s.

    You said:
    “Rev. 10 Prophet was given the Mystery of the Thunders and just as Moses did.”

    Rebut:
    When the seven thunders uttered their reply, John was told not to write down what they said, there is therefore no way for anyone to know what the seven thunders spoke. Anyone who claims to know this is speaking purely by conjecture, having no Scriptural support.

    You said:
    “The Mystery of God is out like never before since the 1st coming. ”

    Rebut:
    The “mystery of God being accomplished” after the seventh angel blows his trumpet, is in reference to what follows the seventh trumpet, that being, the seven bowl judgements, which will complete, that is, accomplish God’s wrath, just as it is stated as soon as the seventh bowl judgment is poured out, “It is done!”

    The mystery of God that he announced to his servants the prophets was referring to “the Day of the Lord,” which will be carried out through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which haven’t begun yet. This is the mystery that will be accomplished/completed.

    So, you still did not answer the question. In 2 Tim.2:16-18, Paul states that Hymenaeus and Philetus had wandered away from the truth and werer destroying the faith of some because they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. He also called their teaching, Godless chatter. Therefore, from Paul’s perspective the resurrection, as well as the catching away, were from that time and still are a future event. How do you explain this?

    The idea is that Jesus would build his Church, which is still on-going and once the church is completed, then the Lord will descend from heaven and the dead and living in Christ will be gathered to meet him in the air, where he will then take us back to the Father’s house that where he is we may be also, fulfilling his promised in John 14:1-3. The resurrection and catching away is meant to include the entire church, not just a part of it. And, it is not a spiritual event, but a literal one.

  112. Dear Bro. Don – I have been working alot around here. I will get back with you. And we can have a talk ok. sorry for the delay.

    Bro. Ty —

  113. Hey Bro. Don – I havn’t forgot you. I just printed your post out and want to send it back to you. I do not want to just answer off the cuff so do say. You have a good post and I want to have a good answer. But I have not been feeling well and been very busy on top of it trying to get a deck done for my Blessed little Wife. God bless you brother

    Sincerely Bro. ty

    • Hey Tom,

      Don’t worry about a response, for we will never be in agreement and that because for the most part, I view the information in Revelation as literal events unless a symbolic interpretation is required, where you on the other hand spiritualize everything so that what Scripture says is not what it means. I believe that the events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the literal, future wrath of God that will be poured out upon a Christ rejecting, unrepentant world with the prophets of old being in agreement with this time of wrath known as “The day of the Lord.”

      We will just have to wait and see what the truth is. Either the word of God means exactly what it says and everyting is going to happen just the way that it is written or it is meant to be spiritualized and nothing that is written means what it says. Regarding this, the burden of proof is on you, because where I can read that a third of the earth and the trees are going to be burnt up, I completely agree with exactly what is said, you on the other hand have to change the meaning of that, so that that event is not going to literally take place.

      Jesus is quickly coming to gather his church and to take us back to the Father’s house and what will follow will be the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls judgments with the Jesus returning after the completion of that wrath to end the age and initiate that thousand year reign.

  114. Hey Tom,

    Not that I expect a sound, logical or satisfactory answer from you regarding this question, but I’m interested in how you would reconcile this…….

    In Luke 20:35 Yeshua says;
    “But “they which shall be accounted worthy” to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:”

    And in Luke 21:36. He says;
    “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that “ye may be accounted worthy” to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

    Now ignoring the fact that many “born again Spirit filled believers are married”, (which would be contrary to what Yeshua states above), if the Resurrection was indeed the giving of the Holy Spirit as you have claimed, how could one have to be “accounted worthy”?

    In both instances above, the translated English, “they which shall be accounted worthy”, (Luke 20:35.) and “ye may be accounted worthy”, (Luke 21:36.) are derived from the same Greek word “καταξιόω”, transliterated as “kataxioō”, (Strong’s 2661).

    Kataxioō is defined as meaning; “to account as worthy, or to judge worthy”. (it is also utilized within Acts 5:41. & 2 Thessalonians 1:5.)

    Yet the giving of the Holy Spirit is a “gift” so that no man can boast.

    “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8,9.

    So how does that work?
    If the giving of the Holy Spirit is the Resurrection, and if you have to be “accounted worthy” for the Resurrection……
    How can it be a “gift” of God through Grace and Faith?

    A.

  115. Accepted are you Don and Alienated all three. Sounds like you are all 3. Just wondering. Like the Godhead – 1 person – 3 different manifestations

    God bless you brother – I care for you and would like to help. But it is a hard thing to preach a whole Message in small posts. When everything dove tails to gether from Gen. To Revelation. Then you getting somewhere. I will get back to you. I do not have the time right now. I got to eat breakfast and do some work on my project –
    Out for now. Your brother in Christ – ty

    • Ah yes, deflection.

      That’s a common ploy that is utilized when someone has been painted into a corner, and is stumped for an answer.
      You tend to do this on a regular basis.

      Again Tom,
      This is not personal, but is rather a debate between individuals with distinctly opposing view points on the most important topic of all.
      And in my opinion, I don’t believe that you preach the same Gospel that is written within Scripture.

      In 1 Corinthians 14:37. Paul says;
      “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge,(to know accurately and understand), that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

      In 2 Corinthians 1:3., he says;
      “For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; ,(to know accurately and understand), and I trust ye shall acknowledge, (to know accurately and understand), even to the end;

      Therefore, what Paul, (and the other Apostles) wrote within their epistle’s was meant to be understood, even by the completely uneducated people of the day.

      There is most certainly a spiritual aspect to Scripture, for God the Father is indeed Spirit. However the Holy Spirit wished for everyone to understand the message of the Gospel, and if what you claim to be the truth is indeed the truth, I personally don’t think that Christianity would have even made it off of the ground, let alone survived for the last 2000 plus years.

      You are in my prayers.

      A.

      • a

        there is a time to realize you have made your point, and they have made theirs

        then it is time to peacefully desist.

        there is nothing else to accomplish

  116. Don, with your more literal interpretation of Scriptures, please provide your understanding of Rev 8:6-7 (“…and all the grass was burned up.”) with Rev 9:1-4 (“They were not to harm the grass of the earth or any green thing, or any tree…”).

    In 8:7, the first angel sounds and “all grass was burned up.

    Then, in the next chapter (the events must come in chapter and verse order?), we read that the 5th angel sounds and verse 4 says that the grass which was burned up is not to be harmed or any green thing.

    How do you explain the differences within the seven angels with seven trumpets events.

    Blessings
    Proverbs 16:3

    • Hi DJ,

      This is a fair question:

      First of all, we must remember that it is only [a third] if of the trees that are burnt up as specified in Rev.8:7, meaning that there would be 2/3’s of the trees left, which the demon locusts could harm, but are told not to. And second, how quickly does it take for grass grow back? Since a third of the trees and all green grass is burnt up at the 1st trumpet judgment and it is not until the 5th trumpet that these locust-demons are let out, I’d say that there would be plenty of time for tons of grass to grow back by the time these things are let out of the Abyss. From what we know about grass it would probably begin to grow back within a week after being burnt up. Anyone who owns a house and mows the lawn knows this : )

      Here’s one for you along those same lines:

      At the pouring out of the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments, the sea (oceans) and the rivers and springs of water (fresh water) are all turned into literal blood and that because they shed the blood of the saints and prophets and God is giving them blood to drink. Then we read at the pouring out of the 6th bowl judgment that the [water] at the great river Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. So it begs the question, aren’t the rivers and springs of waters turned into blood at the 3rd bowl judgment? How then can there be water to dry up at the Eurphates?

      Yours in Christ

      • Don,

        I find Scriptures gives me insight to meaning of Scripture.

        Grass can refer to something more than the literal green grass one cuts down or the sun burns up.

        “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you” (1st Peter 1:23-25).

        The grass written within those verses in Revelation (maybe both?) could be “the glory of man”.

        But, the word of The Lord, which dwells in my heart, endureth for ever (eternal) and is not harmed.

        I’m sealed, overcoming him and enduring the Great Testing by the blood of the Lamb and my testimony (Rev.12:11), even unto the death of my flesh, but alive in Christ.

        As for the water turning to blood and the river drying up ~ I have not studied those verses describing waters turning to blood.

        But, you believe Wormwood is a star that will damage a portion of all the earth’s waters, springs. I believe Wormwood is demonic (spiritual).

        Jesus explains to the woman water He can give to her, offering water that will satisfy her thirst. This is living water, while Wormwood is a demonic spirit of bitterness (unforgiveness tied to anger and other spirits not of God).

        Some folks think that the moon will turn to blood too. This is really a “Blood Moon”. These Blood Moons will occur on Hebrew Feasts days during 2014-2016.

        Maybe the waters will turn to blood (red color and not fit to drink) in the region as they did in the land of Egypt so long ago.

        The Euphraties is beginning to drying up. A slow process.

        But you know me – I think we’re within the 7 year period and His desciples are gathered unto Him when he returns (Matthew 24:29-31).

        Blessings,
        Psalm 25:1-3

        • Hi DJ,

          I know that your last post was addressed to Don, but I would just like to throw a couple of thoughts out there.

          Do you believe that there should be consistency within the Word, and that the New Testament, or Covenant, (which was the subject of all of the epistles) was meant to be fully understood by those churches and individuals that received them?

          Paul say’s in 2 Corinthians 1:13.,
          “For we write none other things unto you, than what “ye read” or “acknowledge”; and I trust ye shall “acknowledge” even to the end;”

          Now I am aware that you’re not a fan of me including definitions all of the time, but they are a tool which allows for us to receive a more comprehensive understanding of the text, so please bear with me here for a couple of them.

          The English “ye read” above is derived from the transliterated Greek “anaginōskō”, and it is defined as, “to read, to distinguish between, to recognise, to know accurately, to acknowledge”.

          And the English “acknowledge” in both instances above, is the transliterated Greek “epiginōskō”, and it is primarily defined as, “to become thoroughly acquainted with, to know thoroughly, to know accurately, know well”. Or in other words to simply “understand”.

          Therefore in respects to the New Covenant epistles written to the various churches, shouldn’t they all be taken literally as written to understand them all correctly?
          Though I would agree that the book of Revelation may tend to be more difficult regarding this train of thought, wouldn’t the consistency aspect still hold true?

          I would be more than happy to entertain a more spiritual aspect, if you could please provide from Scripture where anyone of the Apostles says that it should be taken and understood that way.

          Thanks

          Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

          Amen.

        • Hi DJ! How’s it going?

          You believe that the grass mentioned in the in the first trumpet judgment which says, “A third of the earth will be burnt up and a third of the trees and all green grass shall be burnt up” and that the grass could be referring to mankind and that because of the example of the following Scripture that you supplied:

          “For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away”

          First of all here is the definition for Chortos/Grass:

          Chortos: a feeding place, food, grass; the place where grass grows and animals glaze; from Hesiod down, grass, herbage, hay, provender: of green grass.

          Looking at the definition above, I would say that the verse could very well be speaking of literal grass and not plants, flowers or anything else, but that is not really important since the issue is whether or not literal grass is being burnt up or if grass is being used figuratively to represent mankind.

          The verse above that you have supplied is a perfect example of determining whether or not something is being used figuratively or literally. Notice in the verse that man and grass are used interchangeably, that is, right in the verse itself grass is being identified figuratively as man “For all flesh is as grass.” Now, if we look at the verse in Revelation:

          “A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.”

          Where the verse you used as an example comparing it to the Revelation verse, which directly tells the reader that grass is figurative for man, the verse in Revelation has nothing in its context that would give the reader any inclination that grass is to be interpreted as anything by actual grass. Therefore, it would be an error to interpret the word grass in the Revelation verse as figurately representing man, which would also change the meaning of the verse.

          When reading and interpreting Scripture, just because a word is used figuratively in Scripture somewhere else does not necessarly mean that it is being used with that same symbolism elsewhere. There should be something in the context for the reader to conclude that a word or the subject matter is meant to be understood as symbolic.

          In the Revelation verse we have the earth, trees and grass mentioned as being burnt up. The verse is consistent with literal objects of the earth and there is nothing in the context that would point the reader to these being figurative and we therefore must conclude that the reference to the earth, trees and grass is speaking of them in literal terms, otherwise, every reader could apply a different meaning to them and that without any rhyme or reason.

          Another good reason for understanding the earth , trees and grass to be literal is becasuse of what was said before the angel sealed the 144,000 as listed below:

          “He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

          Notice in the verse above that the angels mentioned had been given power to harm the land, sea and trees. This would be consistent with the literal earth, trees and grass being burnt up at the 1st trumpet, opposed to them being figurative.

          Yours in Christ

          • Don,

            Let’s just part on this and rest in The Lord.

            I’ve picked up my 1967 edition of The New Scofield Reference Bible and will re-read Dr. Scofield’s revised work (1909/1917), while reading E-sword’s Hebrew and Greek translation of each word in the KJV as I try to understand the literal.

            This will be a challenge since coming to understand and practicing taking up serpents, and drinking any deadly thing and not being hurt (Mark 16:17-18). Casting out demons and confronting witches with the Sword of the Word may be easier for me than returning to a literal reading of most Scripture, thank you Lord.

            I’ll see you and we’ll talk when the roll is called up yonder. We seem to agree on essential doctrine of faith (1st John 5) in NKJV, KJV or Amplified.

            Blessings
            Psalm 26 applies.

            • Hello again DJ,

              Just remember that, it is not only the definition of any specific word that determins whether something is literal or symbolic, but the entire context should be taken into consideration, for those other words that make up the context help to describe what is meant in the Scripture. As I have said many times on this site regarding interpretation:

              “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.”

              When Scripture says, “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars,” I immediately know that this is symbolism. When I read of a beast with seven heads and ten horns, I immediately know that this is symbolism. When I read that a third of the earth, trees and grass are going to be burnt up as one of God’s judgments, I interpret it literally, for there is no reason for me to apply symbolism. A third of the creartures in the sea die and a third of the ships are destroyed. I interpret this literally and that because there is nothing in the context that would make me believe otherwise. Many people died from drinking the waters. I interpret this literally as real contaminated water and real people dying from drinking it. There is nothing else in the context to make me believe otherwise. Do you see what I am saying?

              You really need to break away from that spiritual method of interpretation and apply a literal interpretation unless a symbolic one is required. One of the biggest problems I see with expositors today is that many are symbolizing what is meant to be interpreted as literal and there are those who interpret what is meant to be symbolic, but they don’t apply God’s provision for the symbolism, but instead they use their own or the one who taught them.

              God’s blessings to you in your quest for the truth in this matter.

  117. To all,

    Regardng this issue of the resurrection and catching away (RACA) being spiritualized as taking place on the day of Penecost as Tom has claimed, we must understand that this event encompasses the entire church period from beginning to end. In 1 Thes.4:16, when the Lord descends, the Scripture states that the dead shall rise first. Well, if the RACA had taken place on the day of Penecost, which took place within a week after Jesus ascended, then there would hardly be any dead in Christ to rise first and that because the persecutions against Christians had not yet really begun. Also, Jesus said, “I will build my Church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it” which is on-going till this very day, which would mean that if the RACA had taken place at Penecost, then the majority of the Church that has been in the process of being built for the last 1900 years, would not be taking part in the RACA.

    The way that the Lord has this set up is that, he will continue to build his church and upon completion, he will descend from heaven and all those who have died from the churches inception up until his descent would rise first, followed by those who belong to him and are still alive. And because they are still alive, they will simply be changed in a moment and caught up, going from mortal to immortal and that because they are not dead needing to be resurrected.

    It would make no sense for the RACA to take place at the very beginning of the church leaving the majority of the dead in Christ in the ground and which would also leave the living church no way of being caught up in order to escape the coming wrath that is going come upon all those who dwell upon the face of the whole earth. The resurrection and catching away is meant to include the entire church from its inception until that last person says, Lord come into my life. At that time the church period will be over, which is also why the word church does not appear after the end of chapter 3 and that because it is not here during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, according to the promise, which is that we are not appointed to suffer wrath.

    As a side note, the first resurrection is made up of phases. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and it is still active. Next will be the church, dead and living, then the male child/144,000, the two witnesses and finally after the Lord returns, the great tribulation saints will be part of that first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power. Those who resurrect out of Hades at the end of the thousand years, these are those who the second death has power over and that because they will not have been part of the first resurrection.

    All that being said, if when Hymenaeus and Philetus were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and Paul labeled it as Godless chatter and stated that by them doing so they had wandered away from the truth and were destroying the faith of some, then those who teach the same thing today would also fall under the same status as Hymenaeus and Philetus. In other words, it is not a casual thing to be teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, as if it was just some other harmless interpretation. In the same manner, those who were distorting the writings of Paul, Peter referred to them as ignorant and unstable people who were doing so to their own destruction. Therefore, in the same way, those who today say that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, also fall under the label of ignorant and unstable people who do so to their own destuction as well.

    Yours in Christ

  118. alienated again,

    alienated you have not got an idea of what i do. Right now I have a very sick wife on my hands and she wanted me to build her a nice deck for us to sit back in the yard this summer when it was winter and that is part of what I am doing now. I have never built a deck in my life.

    What I do mostly 24 hours a day is be a CNA and anything and everything I can do to help my wife. Take care of my Wife and try to study the bible and write in post. That takes all my time. The project is taking me more time.

    I told you I was a 24 hour a day “caregiver” to my wife. Not a “caretaker” as you said. Which is a pretty low statement to say the least. But I do not hold nothing against you cause you do not know me or what I am about.

    I do not have to run away or back into a corner on nothing. I love talking about the Word of God. Cause I Love the Lord Jesus Christ. That is how I learned what I have learned. Through many many years of study and examining all doctrines the best I could by the Holy Spirit’s guide.

    But you know what! I can still say I care for you as a Brother. Doctrine is not all their is to Worshipping Jesus Christ. Love is better. But Love drives us to have an answer for another brother or sister. It sets you free as Love does also. Love is the most powerful remedy against Evil the Bible says. Cause Love conquers Evil. —— Cain could not conquer his hate he had for his brother. He ended up with the “Mark of the beast” and was lost.

    His character was spoken of in Rom. 1 as a reprobate of mind. Void of judgment and right from wrong. His heart calloused over. He gave himself over to the “beast that is within” . Rejecting the Holy spirit is rejecting God.
    You just become a “mammal” with high intelligence. Whether anyone believes that or not. I believe it. But I refuse to hate people that will not believe that. Bro. ty

  119. …….”upon the completion of the scattering [ – dispersing – fragmenting ] of the hand of the holy people, all these will be finished.”

  120. Marianne – you first paragraph says:
    Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. (Daniel 12:7)

    Yes that is the destruction of Israel after the Cross. 70 AD

    The end of the Dead spiritual ‘”message of Moses” COVENANT. Now the believers of Israel can come to Christ . Through the gospel of Christ just as all other remnate’s in all nations can.

    Read your history and you will find that destruction “of the Temple and Jerusalem” was right at 3–1/2 years. As Christ ministry was right at first 3-1/2 years for Reconciliation. Those the rejected the Grace and Mercy can get nothing but Judgment. They forsook their only chance for redemption when they forsook their own Messiah.

    I also can find many different 3 and 1/2 year periods in history and today that is done.

    The Same yesterday today and forever. We have had the same chance as did Israel. We turn it down today nothing left but Judgment. For the ones that reject the Mercy and Grace of Messiah.

    Noah’s day the same – 120 years watching Him build the ARK = Jesus .

    Those that lived in Goshen had light. Judgments did not fall on.
    But later when they refused Moses Message they all died in the wilderness that would not take heed according to Paul. Remember it was “Trumpet” Time” when Moses came down from the mountain. And “Thundered” out their New Message are Covenant for their hour. I know you know the story.
    Just like today. Christianity is great as long as God takes care of you completely. But OVERCOMING their Character flaws and surrendering to Image of the World to the Image of Christ and changing Kingdoms from Egypt to Promised Land. ITS a Battle to say the least. But its a good fight as well. When we Overcome it all. Im in a hurry got to go

    God bless you all and forum. ty

    • tom

      what is your historical source that the destruction of Jerusalem took 3 1/2 years?

      I have been there. small town. I do not see it taking that long to destroy it, especially when an entire army is involved.

    • Tom,

      This reference to:

      “that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered”

      is synonymous with Rev.12:14, which says:

      “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.”

      The time, times and half a time is in reference to the last 3 1/2 years starting from the middle of the seven of Dan.9:27 when the abomination that causes the desolation is set up in the holy place within the temple (Mt.24:15). The end of that last 3 1/2 years is tied directly into the physical, visual return of the Lord to end the age and set up his millennial kingdom.

      You said:
      “Yes that is the destruction of Israel after the Cross. 70 AD”

      The problem with your claim is that you have no Scripture linking that
      3 1/2 years to the destruction of the temple. It is basically assumed on your part, that is, strictly conjecture. Also, the setting up of the abomination is what initiates that last 3 1/2 years where the woman Israel is cared for out in the desert during that time until the Lord’s return to the earth, but you have no historical fulfillment of either the abomination being set up nor do you have the event of Israel fleeing out into the desert. Neither do you have any fulfillment of the beast and the false prophet who will be performing those miracles, signs and wonders during that last 3 1/2 years, nor have we seen the mark of the beast or anything else that is related to that time period.

      The end of that 3 1/2 years brings about the end of human government, which is represented by Nebuchadnezzar’s statue which symbolizes the major world ruling kingdoms from beginning to end, where that Rock (Jesus) was cut out of the mountain and falls on the feet of the statue and it was broken into pieces and becomes like chaff on a thressing floor blown away by the wind without leaving a trace. Notice that it also states that the Rock that strikes the feet of the statue becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth. This is representing the end of human government and the beginning of the Lord’s millennial kingdom on earth. One of the purposes for the plagues outlined in Revelation is to dismantle human government, ergo, “blown away by the wind without leaving a trace.”

      When you spiritualize these things, it gets rid of the need for the literal proof of the event itself, as well as the related events stated in Scripture, basically allowing you to apply these events to whatever you want without any literal proof. A good example of this is your claim that the resurrection and catching away has already taken place at Penecost and that because you spiritualzed the event. Yet, regardless of whether it being spirtual or a literal event, Paul speaks of this event to the Thessalonians and Corinthians as still being future. How is that possible when those letters are 20 to 30 years after the supposed resurrection and catching away at Penecost? You’re not going to speak of something in the future tense if it already happened 20 to 30 years prior and no one would surely be waiting on the event to take place, as were the Thessalonians and the Corinthians if it was already spiritually fulfilled at Pentecost.

      You really need to seriously rethink you method of interpretation.

      If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

  121. An elaboration on the verse 12.7

    The word “hand” [ yad ] used in this verse begins with the letter “yod” which signifies the number 10. The number ten means completion, unity, and power. As an example: When the hand is closed it forms a fist which creates completion, unity, and power. When the hand is in the opened position, it disperses, scatters the unity, power and is no longer complete. So the strong fist becomes weakened in its effectiveness. Applying this to the verse; the completion, unity and power of the people has been weakened considerably and subsequently the end result is that the people scattered or dispersed due to the depletion of the unity of power as a nation. The word “shatter” which generally means destruction makes the meaning of the verse vague and unclear to the reader, the word actually abrogates the meaning of the verse. The people were not destroyed, the completion was the scattering or dispersing of the people.

  122. History shows Josephus a historian – wrote a pretty much detailed account of the Rome and Israel war.

    Along with others that wrote about Rome. It would take me a while in all my notes to find just everything that was written down that I’ve read on the war of 70 A.D. so just go to Josephus first. Remember Israel was scattered completley by this war. 1, 100, 000 people died in it plus. It is very interesting to say the least. Most of the Book of Revelations was written with Rome as the anti-christ most all scholars agree on. You would have to agree on that I would think for sure. And Yes the people that believe what Christ told them when they seen the Armies of Rome around them. He told them to flee and they did. That could very well be Rev. 12 –

    So have you never researched these things to try and understand that Jesus when He said he was “coming back” – that all the Apostles and church were looking for HIM. Well HE CAME back ON Pentecost, to SAVE HIS Church – the Wife – and came back in 70 AD to destroy the anti-christ church of Israel along with their temple and City and Nation. That does not mean every Jew got killed of course not.

    Jesus said there will not be a stone left upon the temple remember it says that in Scripture. That is what they were looking for His return for. Judgment upon Rome and the Nation of Israel. Matt. 23:36 then 37-39 Jesus plainly says the Abomination that maketh Desolate – He tried to shelter them under His great Wings of Healing and Salvation. But they would not come under HIS KINGSHIP. Then Matt. 24 I believe it says the Abommination that maketh desolate will come to them. That was written in Daniel.
    70 AD was the final end of the rejection of Israel towards their Messiah. He was also talking to His disciples about their generation of false Prophets etc. THE END OF THIER GENERATION as well as ours today.

    Then they were scattered abroad to every nation. Some think that to be Rev. 12 – And no doubt that is part of what John was saying. But even that has more to it that I cannot take the time now. I just wrote a pretty long Post in and never looked here first or I would have commented on these posts.

    Everyone that knows history at all should know that. Then 1948 they become a Nation, and 1967 got back Jerusalem. Amen.
    And they could recieve their Messiah if they would believe the Gospel Message as we all got to. Only at the Name of Jesus Crucified can they be saved. I have to much to say to keep going.

    As for the 3-1/2 years and 70th week I told you that most are not going to believe that dogma. Marianne do you remember when I sent you the teaching on that and you agreed with me.

    The Apostles stayed in Jerusalem for 3 and 1/2 years after the Resurrection also. That could very well be the 70 week ending or 70 ad could very well be the ending of the 70 weeks of RECONCILIATION.

    In the dark ages from the 1st pope to when he was put in prison by Napoelain however you spell that. Was exactly 1, 260 years. of days.

    The 3 and 1/2 year periods are not a problem with me. I seen them in my day as well.

    Gotta go – hope you read my post on who the Devil really is. sorry if i made mistakes on this spelling etc. I got to go to bed. Love you all.

    Bro. ty.

    • Excuse me Tom, I’m being honest here, it apears that you are very good at avoiding the issues in that, you never address the actual questions directly, but instead you list a lot of unrelated information that doesn’t prove anything. I know that this is a waste of time and effort but:

      You said
      “So have you never researched these things to try and understand that Jesus when He said he was “coming back” – that all the Apostles and church were looking for HIM. Well HE CAME back ON Pentecost, to SAVE HIS Church – the Wife – and came back in 70 AD to destroy the anti-christ church of Israel along with their temple and City and Nation.”

      So, Jesus said, “I will build my church” and you say that he came back on Pentecost. What do you do about all the individual believers that have make up the the church from the time of Pentecost until now, 1900 years later? We are also his wife.The church is still in progress, that is, it is still being built. If you have Jesus coming back at Pentecost, you have the majority of the church left unaccounted for. You also said that he came back to destroy the antichrist, who was that? And when was the abomination set up in the temple before 70 AD? There is no biblical or historical support for the abomination being set up in the temple before it was destroyed.

      You said:
      “Most of the Book of Revelations was written with Rome as the anti-christ most all scholars agree on.”

      Rebut:
      No, Rome is not the anti-christ. Rome/Vatican with her Mystery Babylon system is the woman who rides the beast.

      “The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.”

      Rome was built on and is famous for her seven hills.

      “The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth”

      At the time that the angel gave John this information, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth, ergo, Rome is that woman.

      So, Rome/Vatican is the woman who rides the beast, but she is not the anti-christ. The anti-christ aka the beast, aka the man of lawlessness is identified as the following:

      “They seven heads are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”

      According to the Scripture above, one of the seven heads represents the beast who is a king. This is the same head of Rev.13:3 who receives the fatal wound:

      “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.”

      So, Rome with her adulterous Babylonian system is the woman who rides the beast and that eighth king who receives the fatal wound and survives is the beast, that antichrist. Ater the beast is revealed another beast is revealed who is later referred to as the false prophet (Rev.16:13,19:20). It is this false prophet who performs miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast with which he deceives the inhabitants of the earth into believing that the first beast is God. This false prophet also causes the inhabitants of the earth to receive a mark on their right hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell. Where in history has any of this been fulfilled? That would be, never ….

      When Jesus returns, he has this beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire and during that same time Satan will be locked up in the Abyss during the thousand years of Christ’s reign on earth. Where in history has this been fulfilled? Please don’t tell us that Satan is currently bound in the Abyss, because he is out and about in the world like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. He is also the principality of the power of the air.

      If you don’t answer any of the above, answer the first question which was, If the resurrection spirtually took place at Pentecost, as you say, then how could Paul speak about the resurrection and catching away of the church as still being future in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 if in fact according to you it had already taken place 20 to 30 years prior at Pentecost? Surely the letters Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and Corinthians were writtten many years after the Holy Spirit fell on those believers at Pentecost. What is your answer for this? How do you explain it?

  123. TO ALL – Will the Real Satan, Devil, and Lucifer stand up and be seen clearly – SO SIMPLE – Its time the Bride understood who the Real Boogie man is. Not that long of a read – just spaced it out.

    O.T JUDGES 2:11-12- And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and served BAALIM:

    BAALIM —– defined in Hebrew
    1168 » Ba’al {bah’-al} the same as 1167; Baal = “lord”
    1) supreme male divinity of the Phoenicians/Canaanites
    2) a Reubenite
    3) the son of Jehiel and grandfather of Saul
    4) a town of Simeon, probably identical to Baalath-beer

    1167 » ba’al from 1166;
    1) owner, husband, lord- 1a) owner 2. a husband 3. citizens, inhabitants 4. rulers, lords
    5.noun of relationship used to characterise ie, master of dreams 6. lord (used of foreign gods)

    1166 » ba’al baw-al’}
    1. to marry, rule over, possess, own — 2. to marry, be lord (husband) over 3. to rule over
    4. to be married

    12. And they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them out of the land of Egypt, and followed other gods, of the GODS OF THE PEOPLE that were round about them, and bowed themselves unto them, and provoked the LORD to anger.

    Ver 12 “gods of The PEOPLE”
    PEOPLE defined 5971 ‘am from 6004;
    1. nation, people- 1a. people, nation 1b. persons, members of one’s people, compatriots, fellow-countrymen 2. kinsman, kindred
    6004 ‘amam m’ 1) to dim, darken, grow dark- 1a) ) to dim, eclipse, be held dark- dimmed, grow dark

    GODS of the people – GODS defined again , and again, and again. Everytime you read Bible and it says God it means Elohiym – plural –
    430 » ‘elohiym {el-o-heem’} ~yih{l?a plural of 433; TWOT- 93c; n m p
    1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive — singular meaning)
    2a) god, goddess —-2b) godlike one— 2c) works or special possessions of God — 2d) the (true) God
    2e) God – –

    We got to come to grips with ABSOLUTE TRUTH – man and satan are the same. The Human man veiled in a flesh body and a carnal spirit = carnal means animal appetites -ARE – sons of perdition

    Sons of the Real GOD our Lord Jesus Christ —- Sons of God – The Human man veiled in a flesh body with the Holy Spirit taking over and killing that carnal spirit DEAD. Then you been raptured.

    1. Who peaches a Dark Message in Daniel – 4 Nations of Anti-christ doctrine’s of Baal. Nimrod and Baal are false gods yet they were men — HELLO — they were men. Humans given over to Idolatry, and every evil way. They actually became gods to the Nations of Daniels writings.
    2. The Above statements tell of Nations, every nation has their leader to follow, kinsmen, kings, countrymen, persons in general become gods if not ruling over somebody else they still think they are gods. They worship themselves. And lift themselves up ABOVE Gods will. They turn reprobate and Void of Judgment and are destroyed as “satans angels“ or nations, or governments, etc. etc.

    D-EVIL – means – 1228 diabolos from 1225 — devil — false accuser –slanderer –prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely— a calumniator, i.e. Satan the prince of the demons, the author of evil, persecuting good men, estranging mankind from God and enticing them to sin, ) to throw over or across, cross over – 2 defame – The BOOGIE man is Mankind without Christ. They are the Devils – Why can we not understand the simple interpretations of things.

    SATAN defined – 7854 » satan from 7853— adversary, one who withstands –adversary personal or national — 2) superhuman adversary -act as an adversary, resist, oppose — Ty = who can make war with her =Nations –

    LUCIFER –
    ISA. 14:12- How art thou fallen from heaven, “O Lucifer“, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    ISA.14:13 – For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

    LUCIFIER defined – 1966 heylel from 1984 (in the sense of brightness);
    Lucifer = “light-bearer” 1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
    1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (figurative) 2) ‘Helel’ describing the king of Babylon

    1984 » halal 1) to shine, (figurative of God’s favour)– to flash forth light — 2. to praise, boast, be boastful ones — to praise 2b2) to boast, make a boast –
    2c1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise
    2d glory, make one’s boast
    2e) to make a fool of, make into a fool
    2f) mad
    2g) to act madly, act like a “madMAN”

    There are only 2 “Sons of the Morning” — the 1st. ADAM =mankind – came from clay body of earth – fell or eat on carnality tree of death — The flesh was the Serpent –

    The 2nd. ADAM JESUS CHRIST was a quickening Spirit —– the antidote was the resurrection – and Life =zoe – eternal – And Jesus did not fall to the carnal appetites of mankind.

    THE SAVIOR CHRIST was from Heaven – and went back to heaven as God – He said I came from God and I go back to God — yes that one is a spiritual meaning. His Flesh was the serpent that died yet rose again. —- Read St. Jh. 3:14-15 plainly Jesus tells us that.

    • Tom,

      You said:
      “We got to come to grips with ABSOLUTE TRUTH – man and satan are the same.”

      Regarding what you wrote above, I hope that you are not insinuating that Satan is not an actual angelic being, but that he is symbolic for mankind. For if you don’t believe that Satan and his angels are real, then you don’t even know who your enemy is. If this is what you believe, then tell me, who was it that caused God to bring all of Job’s disaster upon him? Does Scripture not say that, one day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord and that Satan also came with them? Was Satan, then Lucifer, not designated as the Covering Cherub? Does Scripture not state that Satan will be accusing the great tribulaiton saints night and day before God? Does he not, as an actual entity, get locked up in the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ? Does he, also as an actual angelic being, get thrown into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years?

      Who has deceived you? You have been lead away from God’s truth and I say this with all ernestness. You need to let go of everything that you have been taught and embrace the literal truth of God’s word, because most of all that you have expounded on here on this site has been a lie. Not counting everything, but using just one example, if Hymeneus and Philitus were said by Paul to have wandered away from the truth for teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and you are teaching the same thing, are you not also to be considered as wandered away from the truth?

      You need to relearn everything that you have believed and repent, because these things are false teachings. I am saying this to specifically to contend for the truth and what you are teaching is far from it. The Boogie man and his cohorts are the same that Scripture states they are, Satan and his angels, who were once holy angels, but somewhere in eternity before mankind came about, rebelled against God and sealed their fate in the lake of fire. They are God’s enemies, which makes them our enemies.

      Tell me, who was it that took Jesus to the highest point of the temple and told him to jump off because he said it is written that his angels will lift him up so that would not dash his feet against a rock?

  124. And just to put things in perspective, we need to ask the question, what would Paul’s or any of the other apostle’s reaction be to these kind of teachings? What if someone came teaching that the resurrection and catching aways was not a literal event, but was only a spiritual one? The Thessalonian’s surely believed that it was a literal event, because when it was being taught that the resurrection and catching away had already taken place, they made their concerns known to Paul because they hadn’t been gathered to the Lord according to Paul’s teaching. If the teachings that are being taught today were being taught during Paul’s time, do you think that his attitude would be “Well, that’s just their interpretation and we have ours.” No, they would all be rebuked and labeled as false teachers!

    Furthermore, after describing the resurrection and catching away, Paul finished 1 Thes.4:18 by saying, “Therefore, encourage one another with these words.” What encouragement would there be if the resurrection and catching away was just a spiritual event and not literally meeting the Lord in the air?

    • Don,

      As you are well aware, I have always been one to “contend” for the Word as well.

      “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly “contend” for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” Jude 1:3.

      I have been in the process of doing so with Tom ever since he arrived and made his first post on March 9th. 2012.

      When I have posed questions to him which he can not answer based upon what he believes, he will either not respond to them whatsoever, or provide some of the same incoherent mumbo-jumbo that he has provided above.

      Being secure for the most part as to what I believe in my heart, my contending is not based upon some need to be right within any given debate, but is rather presented as a “safety net” for those that may be new to the faith and read what he may have to say.

      If some happen across the site with the hopes to receive some enlightenment regarding any given topic, (from brothers and sisters that have been walking with our Lord for a longer period of time than they), and read that the resurrection has already happened, that the Lord Yeshua has already returned, and that satan doesn’t exist etc. etc., then my concern is for them.

      However, over the period of a year, Tom has not listened to anyone.
      Many have offered up rebuttals to what he has posted and have disputed his theology. Yet he remains steadfast in his error. (If one does not even believe in satan or demons as being real and actual entities, then they certainly wouldn’t take into consideration as to whether or not they may have one, would they?)

      Nevertheless, is there a time when you simply disregard what he says, shake the dust off of your feet and walk away?
      Is there a time when you realize that no matter what you may say, he will just disregard it, so any further debate is simply pointless?

      That is a difficult decision, and should be left up to the heart of each individual as to how much energy they are willing to commit to God the Father regarding His Word. For Scripture does state;

      “A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.” Proverbs 17:10.

      “Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.” Proverbs 23:9.

      Yet at the same time it also says;

      “Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.” Proverbs 26:4,5.

      Whatever you decide my brother, may God guide you in your endeavour.
      Be Blessed in Yeshua our soon to return KING of kings.

      Amen.

  125. dmcal52 – If you cannot understand the simplicity that is in Christ. You need to read my post again and again and again. Till you get it. Here is another one on the same subject matter.

    Eloyhim – Baalim – Jerusalem – and many other Hebrew words means plurality. Anything with a “m” on end is a plural word meaning in Hebrew. Ask the Rabbi’s if you don’t believe me. Johnathan Cahn explains these things real well. The 1000 faces of the Beast — the 1000 faces of God — you ought to call them up and order those tapes.

    There are many Jerusalem’s – Im one of them. Im a Jeru – river of life – and salem = Peace – Those Precious STONES in Revelation ends up in the making of the New Jerusalem – its in your Bible Rev.21:9 the Wife and verse 18- 27 – Pluralities of men – Sons of God – By Christ. ALL ONE – husband and wife

    1. Paul said there are angels of Light right in the church = men – angels of Light – did you read what “light’ is in my other post.

    To be a critic and say you wrong is easy. Its another thing to prove it. Again lets go to the Word Elohiym
    1. El-ohiym means; Strong’s 1986 edition is the best –
    El = 410 heb. emphasizes might; hence, it is used of men –
    a. Gods uses man – Jesus was a man as well. There are God/men and there are Evil/men -still gods
    Job 41:17 = leviathan -read the whole chapter its men —
    2. Especially as modified by such attributes as Holy Isa. 5:16 = Righteous men
    3. El- was also the name of the chief Canaanite god and father of Baal. That was a Evil/god man – Elijah also starts with EL – — then there is Im-man-u EL Isa. 7:14 – Eze. 1;3 – and Elijah 1 Kgs 17:1 then it says see #430-433
    433 of the word God means –false god – and God —- man has to be the false gods. If they give over to evil and let it rule them – sons of destructions – if Righteous then you are Sons of God.

    WE ALL ARE MADE IN GOD’S IMAGE – DOES NOT THE BIBLE SAY SO. IF WE FALL AND GO EATING FROM THE CARNAL MAN – OTHERWORDS – GIVE OVER TO LUST AND PASSIONS OF SIN. YOU ARE STILL A god but you are just a fallen son of man.

    What does the below scripture mean – if not Godly seed= Men –
    Mal. 2:15 – “Godly seed” means Eloyhim – explain that to me.

    Explain these below
    JOHN 10:34- Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    1. Pretty plain and literal like most like it. Jesus said it – NOT ME –

    JOHN 10:35- If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    2. Well explain this one as well.

    I COR. 8:5 For though there be that are called “GODS“, whether “in heaven or in earth“, (as there be gods many, and “LORDS” many,) –

    LORDS – 2962 kurios (supremacy);
    AV — Lord — lord — master
    1. he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
    2. the possessor and disposer of a thing, the owner; one who has control of the person, the master; in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
    3. is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants salute their master – this title is given to: God, the Messiah – NOW DO WE SALUTE OUR GOVERNMENT’S AND NATION’S AND DO WHAT THEY SAY – THEY ARE LORDS OVER US – THEY ARE “”” MEN’’’’ IN HIGH PLACES, FULL OF SPIRITS OF DEVILS – gods

    AS I HAVE ALWAYS SAID EACH HUMAN HAS TO BE A = THEO – PHANY – Spirit and flesh
    Gods = 2316 theos – a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity;
    1) a god or goddess, a general “name of deities or divinities”
    2) Christ is called God in John 1:1, 20:28, 1 John v:20, Rom. 9:5, Titus 2:13, Heb 1:8 etc.
    3) spoken of the only and true God; refers to the things of God; i.e. his counsels, interests, things due to him
    4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way: God’s representative or viceregent, of magistrates and judges

    1. If Christ is called God and you have Christ in your life – then you are a GOD in Flesh -Son of God
    2. When Born we all reflect Gods image when we little children.

    Lord bless you understanding is my prayer for you Dmcal 52 — Bro. ty.

    • Tom,
      I’ve been sitting back listening to this discussion and I must say you are a horribly confused person. The Bible says to test the spirits to know whether they are from God. I have to say that no matter how much you claim your non-sensical beliefs are from the Holy Spirit, they most definitely are not! Your beliefs are doctrines of demons. The problem you and all hyperpreterists have is that by making everything allegory and symbolism, you completely destroy the plain teaching of Scripture. your interpretations becme meaningless gibberish.
      You continuously IGNORE the questions you are asked because you can’t answer them. Don and Accepted have already, easily refuted every post you’ve ever made, and because you have no answers you respond with more nonsensical interpretations of things that have nothing to do with the questions at hand.
      You have mishandled the Word of God and You have turned the glorious, awesome Second Coming, the consummation of the Wedding of God with its subsequent Wedding Feast, the destruction of Satan’s evil world system, the judgement of the nations, the rewarding of the Saints, and Christ’s kingdom of peace and righteousness over the entire world into a puff of wind.
      Understanding is our prayer for you.

    • Tom,

      Whether you choose to believe me or not, what you say above regarding the Hebrew is not accurate, (why would that come as a surprise to anybody?)

      Not everything with an “-im” ending is a masculine plural, since this can indicate a dual ending, or (in some cases) even a feminine ending! The singular ending on plural forms means that it is prepositional for a singular object: e.g., boreykha [Eccl. 12:1]: “your (singular) Creators (plural).

      If you wish to state something as fact, please attempt at least to get them straight first.

      You are in my prayers as well.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our soon to be returning KING of kings.
      Amen.

    • Tom,

      You said:
      “dmcal52 – If you cannot understand the simplicity that is in Christ. You need to read my post again and again and again. Till you get it. Here is another one on the same subject matter.”

      I understand the simplicity that is in Christ, which cannot be found in your posts, for they make no sense! All that you write is just a jumble of blather. When you are asked simple quesiton about specifics, you avoid it and you write a saga of unrelated information with Scriptural support. You have failed in answering the one question that has been given to you, which is:

      Iif the resurrection and catching away took place spiritually at Pentecost as you claim, then why would paul write to Timothy, the Thessalonian and the Corinthinans at least 20 years later speaking of the resurrection and catching away as a future event? Can you answer that one question with Scriptural support?

      As I stated before, the resurrection and catching away (RACA) involves the entire bride, that is, the entire church from its inception to those who are alive at the time that the resurrection takes place. And because it envoles the entire church from beginning to end, we are still waiting for the appearing of the Lord to gather the entire church dead and alive.

      You need to unlearn what you have learned and reread the word of God and receive it as it is written and not by what someone has taught you. Your teachings sound just like those of Hank Hennegraff who believes that the book of Revelation is all hyperbole, which means, exagerated and not to be taken literally. But I assure you, the seal, trumpets and bowl judgments are on their way, drawing ever closer day by day. If you are here and you see on the news one who has made a seven year covenant with Israel and most likely Islam, allowing Israel to build their temple and begin sacrifices and offerings, them you can know that that last seven years has begun.

  126. alienated
    Hey I believe what a Rabbi says over you. He knows the perfect Hebrew and I doubt that you do. You might be a smart man. That dont make you have a revelation though.

    The Word “God” in the Bible is “Eloyhim” just what It says to be. And it has about 3 different explanations for it.
    To me it self explains exactly what it means . But you cannot handle it dear brother.

    I ask you all to send me back the answers to it remember If you even read it. I take alot of time giving you all answers that you make fun of. Well you all tell me what Eloyhim is them. I got the questions up there – go back and tell me what it means — go back at read the questions I ask you all.

    I imagine you all will say it is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost – 3 persons of God. So if you believe it like that. You do not have to even wast my time.

    Its God and His people that He created on the 6th. day. He made us in HIS OWN IMAGE. According to the whole Bible from Genesis to revelations. I proved it by the Word and what the word means.

    I am a “Image” of God. You can be what you want to be. I AM living in New Jerusalem you can live where ever you want to. I AM a Son of God and Spiritually made and recreated – You can be a carnal believer if you want- I AM feasting on the Marriage Supper right now. You can eat the old rotten manna left in the wilderness if you want to – I AM crossed over the great Jordan and into the Promised land – you can campout anywhere you want to. Camp 43 if you want to.

    I AM Born again and that Raptured me. You can stay earthbound if you want to. I AM risen from the death of tresspasses and sins – you can keep laying down and saying it cannot be so. I AM filled with the Spirit of God you can just say you have a human spirit in you thats ok.

    Lord bless you – not curse you – you cannot help it. Love you brother. ty

    • tom.

      it is best to stop arguing on points already made, when no one is changing their position

    • Tom,

      I was waiting for you to respond and make that simple assumption that you made above regarding the Hebrew.

      You would be right in respects to me “not” having the same command over the Hebrew language as say someone who speaks it on a regular basis, that is why the above is a direct copy, paste and quote from someone who does speak and teach the Hebrew language on a regular basis.

      It was provided by John Parsons who is Messianic and is the administrator of http://www.hebrew4christians.com
      Being a friend of mine, I had asked him for conformation as to whether what you had said had any validity whatsoever, and that was his response.

      Within your posts, you demonstrate that you don’t even have command of the English language, (your grammar is atrocious, and it perhaps explains why your Biblical interpretations are so contrary to Scripture and disputed by others as well), so I certainly don’t place much credence in either that of your interpretations, or that of your supposed understanding of the Hebrew and Greek languages.

      Yeshua will return whether you wish to believe that or not.
      It is however “you” that can’t handle that.

      By the way, why should any of us answer your questions, when you never address ours?

      There is something very emotionally wrong with an individual that believes that they have the truth and that no one else has a clue what they are talking about.
      No one here has agreed with you yet.
      One would hope that you’d clue in.

      • Oh and Tom,

        Here is another flaw within what you state, a Rabbi would believe in Monotheism and that God is One, (they would understand the transliterated Hebrew “echad” as an absolute numerical identity), and that is where Judaism and Christianity clash initially.
        So how would a Rabbi proclaim to you that Elohiym represents plurality?

    • Hi Tom,

      You said:
      “I AM feasting on the Marriage Supper right now. ”

      As for me, and I believe I speak for eveyone here, we are looking for the literal fulfillment of the Lord’s promise of the marriage supper. Regarding this Jesus said:

      “I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.”

      Jesus also said the following when he instituted the breaking of bread and the drinking of the cup for us to do in remembrance of him:

      “I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

      Regarding the above verses, we are looking for a literal wedding feast in heaven with Jesus, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as well as with all of the other saints who will have literally been resurrected and caught up. I would bet my life that Jesus has not drank from the fruit of the vine up till this very day in keeping with his promise, but he will do so when we are gathered together with him. It is pretty sad that the promises that the Lord made to you have no literal, tangible fulfillment, but only seem to be empty promises.

      True believers are not going to pretend to be feasting at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but are looking forward to a literal feast in heaven, with real drink and real food and with real people. Why do you discount this?

  127. ANSWER TO YOU ALL: 2 Tim. 2:18-19 EXPLAINED – You might have to spend 10 minutes to read this right and get the punch line. I hope you all can do it. I love you enough to keep trying.

    The Time Problem of the Resurrection Already Past Doctrine
    Getting a perspective on the time implied in the passage above is key to a proper understanding. Many readily dismiss realized eschatology, also called covenant eschatology or Preterism, as totally foreign to the teaching of the New Testament on the resurrection. Briefly stated, if we do in fact have a resurrection already past, it means one has erred and destroys the faith of others.
    It is, on the surface a seeming just charge. However, the failure to address the time issues of a passage in which timing is a critical component is a far too hasty assessment.
    Paul draws attention to their words, “resurrection already past. That is a time issue. It implies that it must be compared or contrasted with something that can be measured as “not already.” Without the ability to evaluate the one against the other, the text will make little sense to us.

    The Time of Writing
    When was 2 Timothy 2:18, 19 written? Of course we would all agree it is within the first century during the lifetime of Paul. Most dating centers around A.D. 66-68. Some may reason earlier. It certainly was not written after Paul’s death nor do we have record that he survived until A.D. 70. With this in mind, we can move a bit closer to unraveling the time issues presented in the text.

    Observations from the Time
    That some time had elapsed since this doctrine was first taught in the early church is implied in its successful propagation. It takes time to formulate new theories, to espouse them, teach them to others and propagate those ideas to the point of a following or a movement.
    That Hymenaues and Philetus had been teaching for some time is evident through their having gained some followers. Paul addresses this in his statement, saying that these men have erred (perfect passive) and “overthrow the faith of some.” Clearly these men had adherents to their teachings of a ‘resurrection already past’ which alarmed the apostle so much so that he addressed it in Ephesus with the intent of putting an end to it.

    The Relationship of the Resurrection Past Already and the Coming of Christ.
    In 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul writes, I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.,
    In this text, it is clear that Paul’s doctrine on the resurrection time-wise, was in direct contradiction to that of Hymenaeus and Philetus’. However, Paul’s teachings on resurrection were not very far removed from it as to take it out of a first century context.
    In the text quoted, he used mello “about to be” indicating that although the resurrection had not yet occurred, it was not in the far distant future of several thousand years. Paul taught that God was about to judge the living and the dead, (resurrection). See also 1 Peter 4:5, where the apostle used a similar term (hetoimos, ready)of imminence followed by two undisputed passages of emphasizing and imminent end, (4:7, 17).
    Therefore, the distinction between Paul and Peter’s writings and the doctrine of Hymanaeus must be more carefully scrutinized in light of these facts. Peter confirmed he and Paul taught the same eschatology, (2 Pet. 3:16)
    But, we raised the issued of 2 Timothy because of its connection and correlation of the Parousia and resurrection. The events are connected time wise in scripture which affirms Christ raises the dead at his appearing.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1, 2
    Now, brethren, concerning the coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or trouble, either by spirit or by worked or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    It appears from this text that not only was there a problem with a contraction of time for the resurrection in Ephesus, but also several years earlier, the same problem had surfaced in Thessalonica.
    Paul, addresses those in the church who believed that Christ had already come. The term translated “had come,” (NKJV) is from histemi which means already set in or having arrived, compared to engus which means imminent or at hand.
    Again, noting the point that the second coming and the resurrection are concurrent events, the clear implication from believing that Christ had come would equate with the resurrection already past doctrine. Yet this text, written about A.D. 51, 52, predates 2 Timothy 2:18, 19, by almost twenty years.

    Implications of an Imminent Spiritual Resurrection
    The implications that neither Paul, Hymenaeus and Philetus nor the Thessalonicans believed in a far distant biological resurrection is apparent. One taught resurrection as a future but imminent event in his day and time, and the latter taught or believed that it had occurred.
    The implication being obvious that neither of them could have believed that the resurrection involved the raising of dead bodies from the grave. This is very strong evidence that they all understood resurrection from a spiritual, non-biological paradigm.

    The Distinction Between the Apostles and The Apostates
    Paul and Peter taught an imminent resurrection and coming of the Lord which would occur in connection with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, (Matthew 24:3, 31, 34).
    Well aware of Jesus’ promise to return in the kingdom before some who stood with him died, (Matthew 16:28) and before His generation passed (Matthew 24:34), they taught Jesus’ coming in connection with the overthrow of the Jewish temple.
    Hymaneaus and Philetus, in their resurrection already past doctrine, they were denying the promise and prophecy of Christ to overthrow the Jewish state and bring an end to Judaism, thereby terminating the persecution against the church.
    Such would detrimentally affect believers causing them to abandon the church for the doomed carcass of Judaism. It would counter Paul’s entire ministry and mission to the Gentiles.

    Summary and Conclusion
    Now that we have our temporal measuring line, the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem as the imminent event and time of the Lord’s return, we can clearly see the fallacy of the Hymenaen heresy in saying that the resurrection had already occurred, [perfect tense, indicating fulfilled in the past with ongoing results] while in the same epistle an inspired apostle said it was “about to” [mellontos] occur, meaning in the near future. It was an error in time to teach that the event happened too soon.
    Jesus would come soon as taught by the Apostles, but not too soon that it would negate the timing of the fulfillment of all things spoken by the prophets, (Luke 21:20-22, 32). The equivalent today of the Hymenaean resurrection already past heresy would be a doctrine that places the resurrection too late, saying it has not happened.

    • Again this is simple propaganda from others have the same incorrect doctrine that you have, and all you did was copy and past this, (as you always do) from some loopy web-site.
      It is obvious that you have copied and pasted this because though the individual who authored the above is wrong in their interpretation, you don’t have enough command of the English language to articulate your thoughts in this manner.

      Why do you never acknowledge the source when you do this, but instead try to pass it off as something that you yourself have done?

      • I could post something from a Mormon or JW site for you if you would like. It may sound pretty good, but I don’t expect it to be Biblically sound at all either.

    • Tom,

      You said:
      “Implications of an Imminent Spiritual Resurrection
      The implications that neither Paul, Hymenaeus and Philetus nor the Thessalonicans believed in a far distant biological resurrection is apparent. One taught resurrection as a future but imminent event in his day and time, and the latter taught or believed that it had occurred. The implication being obvious that neither of them could have believed that the resurrection involved the raising of dead bodies from the grave. This is very strong evidence that they all understood resurrection from a spiritual, non-biological paradigm.”

      Tom, once again, with your run around, rhetoric, you prove nothing. Tell me, what do you think about the following Scriptures:

      “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Dan.12:1)

      “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.” (John 5:28)

      So, in the above verses we have the mention of people coming out of their graves, meaning literal resurrection. What has caused you to reject the literal truth of Scripture for a false spiritual interpretation?

    • Tom,

      Why can’t you answer a simple question?

      If the resurrection had already taken place at Pentecost, why is Paul rebuking the two men for teaching that it had already taken place. If it had indeed taken place at Pentecost, if anything, Paul would have been in agreement with Hymenaeus and Philetus, but in fact he was rebuking them. Paul says that they were destroying the faith of some by their teaching, why? Because paul had taught that at the resurrection the dead in Christ would rise first and then those who were still alive would be caught up right after them. So, to have someone telling you that the resurrection had already taken place would cause panic because those who were having faith and waiting for the Lord were still on the earth. Basically their attitude was,

      “Hey Paul, why am I still here if the resurrection has already taken place? I should be gone!”

      This is just really rediculous to keep trying to prove the point with you. Furthermore, why would Paul write about the event of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:13-18 in the future tense if this event had already taken place 20 to 30 years prior? It would make no sense what-so-ever to comfort them with the hope of the resurrection and catching away if it had already taken place. It’s just rediculous to continue to debate it.

      Let’s look at it this way, if you were the one at that time teaching that the resurrection and catching away had already taken place, then Paul would have been rebuking you as well, calling it godless chatter and that by this you had also wandered away from the truth. Well, the resurrection and catching away has still not taken place and you, like Hymeneus and Philitus, are teaching that it has, therefore, what Paul said of them must be applied to you, as well as to those who are teaching the same thing.

  128. Alienated

    MATT 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
    11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
    13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    I told you I loved you brother – It is not your fault – You cannot help it. Bro. ty

    • Tom said:
      “MATT 13:10-15 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
      11. He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
      12. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
      13. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
      14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
      15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them”

      Tom, what Jesus said above that you have quoted, was directed towards Israel in fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 6:9-10 and was not directed towards the church. As we read the word of God we have the benefit of seeing the parables and having the meaning given to us. The “this people” in verse 15 is referring to Israel.

      We are not resisting you to be mean or rude, but to let you know that you have the wrong Lord and wrong gospel. You have been brain-washed by this teaching that you are contending for. You need to let go of that and unlearn what you have learned, because it is a false teaching. If you don’t realize it now, you will realize it later once you begin to see all of the things that are written in Revelation literally taking place. Then you will know that these are not meant to be interpreted spiritually, but literally.

    • Tom,

      Why do you always resort to attacking the person that is debating with you, rather than defending your interpretation of Holy Scripture?
      I could have very easily posted those same verses above, (Matt. 13:10-15.) and presented them to you. Posting those certainly doesn’t validate your position.

      And though you addressed that particular post to me, you are in fact presenting those verses to all of those here that disagree with you.
      The same can be said in respects to where you have also posted above and say;
      “I AM Born again and that Raptured me. You can stay earthbound if you want to. I AM risen from the death of tresspasses and sins – you can keep laying down and saying it cannot be so. I AM filled with the Spirit of God you can just say you have a human spirit in you thats ok.”

      By the above you are exalting yourself and saying that “WE” that don’t agree with you, are “earthbound”, where you consider yourself to be “raptured”.
      That “WE” are still in our “trespasses” where you have risen from both death and sins.
      That “WE” do not have the “Spirit of God”, but that you do.

      As well as you witnessing for yourself, you have also utilized within that witness the term “I AM”, which means you are elevating yourself as being equal with God the Father. Which is something that is prophesized that the “anti-christ”, or those with an “anti-christ” spirit will do.

      If you think that you’re even close to being “Holy” then you are even more delusional that I believe that you are???
      So since you claim that you are “filled with the Spirit of God” then you wouldn’t mind enlightening us by telling us what your particular gift might be then.
      So, which of the 9 did you receive?

      A.

  129. Tom,

    “heylel?” Is there a hidden meaning to this word?

    • “Heylel” is the transliterated form of the Hebrew “הֵילֵל” or the English Lucifer, (Strong’s 1966).
      It is defined as “Lucifer – light bearer, (1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer. (1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan. (2) (TWOT) ‘Helel’ describing the king of Babylon.”

      Where are you heading with this Jay?

  130. alienated,

    Tom threw out words and definitions, I was just wondering if he knew if there were any hidden meanings. Here is a clue to what I am getting at:
    “the star of the third morning watch.”

  131. Tom,

    By the way, since you seem to interpret everything spiritually, what do you think about the resurrection of Jesus Christ? Was it a bodily resurrection or a spiritual one? That is, did Jesus’ spirit reenter his crucified body laying in the tomb and physically get up and walk away or did he resurrect in spirit only and something else happened to his body? Just curious.

  132. Tom said:
    “The Time of Writing
    When was 2 Timothy 2:18, 19 written? Of course we would all agree it is within the first century during the lifetime of Paul. Most dating centers around A.D. 66-68. Some may reason earlier. It certainly was not written after Paul’s death nor do we have record that he survived until A.D. 70. With this in mind, we can move a bit closer to unraveling the time issues presented in the text. ”

    This is what you’re not addressing. It doesn’t matter when the letter to timothy was written. All that matters is that we know that it was written many years after Pentecost. The writting of this issue would be putting the cart before the horse. You don’t need to rebuke two guys for teaching that the resurrection had already taken place if in fact it already had.

    Timothy: Hey Paul, there are some guys teaching that the resurrection has already taken place.

    Paul: That’s okay Timothy, they are correct. It took place at Pentecost many years ago.

    Timothy: Well then, why did you write to the Thessalonians and the Corinthians many years later telling them to watch for this event if it has already happened?

    Why would Paul even write about it if it had aleady taken place. Why would paul write a second letter to the Thessalonians saying:

    “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”

    The very fact that the above was written many years after Pentecost should be enough to end the debate.

  133. Tom said:
    “The Relationship of the Resurrection Past Already and the Coming of Christ.

    In 2 Timothy 4:1, Paul writes, I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.,
    In this text, it is clear that Paul’s doctrine on the resurrection time-wise, was in direct contradiction to that of Hymenaeus and Philetus’. However, Paul’s teachings on resurrection were not very far removed from it as to take it out of a first century context.
    In the text quoted, he used mello “about to be” indicating that although the resurrection had not yet occurred, it was not in the far distant future of several thousand years. Paul taught that God was about to judge the living and the dead, (resurrection). See also 1 Peter 4:5, where the apostle used a similar term (hetoimos, ready)of imminence followed by two undisputed passages of emphasizing and imminent end, (4:7, 17).
    Therefore, the distinction between Paul and Peter’s writings and the doctrine of Hymanaeus must be more carefully scrutinized in light of these facts. Peter confirmed he and Paul taught the same eschatology, (2 Pet. 3:16)
    But, we raised the issued of 2 Timothy because of its connection and correlation of the Parousia and resurrection. The events are connected time wise in scripture which affirms Christ raises the dead at his appearing. ”

    The above information is irrelevant in that the letter to Timothy was written many, many years after Pentecost where you claim that the resurrection had already taken place spiritually. Why don’t you understand that this is an issue of chronology? I’ll say it again, you don’t rebuke two guys for claiming that the resurrection had already taken place, unless it hadn’t.

    What you are suggesting is like someone telling his friend that he bought a new car last week and then the friend saying, come on, I’ll go with you to help you pick it out.

  134. Tom said:
    “The implication being obvious that neither of them could have believed that the resurrection involved the raising of dead bodies from the grave. This is very strong evidence that they all understood resurrection from a spiritual, non-biological paradigm. ”

    This is like shooting fish in a barrel now.

    “So it is also stated elsewhere:

    “ ‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’

    “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his [body] decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.”

    Last I heard, bodies decay, spirits do not, ergo, Christ’s resurrect was a bodily resurrection, just as ours will be.

    “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the [body] and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

    Notice in the verse above that the Jews are asking Pilot for a guard so that the disciples won’t come and steal his [BODY]. This would also show that the Jewish leaders knew that when Jesus claimed that he would rise three days later that he was speaking of a bodily resurrection.

    “On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the [body] of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen!”

    Again, in the Scripture above, notice that as proof of his resurrection was that his body was missing. Why do you look for the living among the dead? His body is not here, because he is in it, he has risen. (ibid)

    The very word “Anastasia” translated “Resurrection” means to stand up again in the same body. That combined with the context should show overwhelmingly that the resurrection has to do with the rising of the body.