Suffering Servant and the Messiah


The Suffering Servant has to come first.

There is an order to things prophesied.

Christians focus on Isaiah 53.

Jews focus on other passages to define who the Messiah is- a king who brings peace.

Both are correct, but how do we piece this together into one unit?

Isaiah speaks of 3 kinds of “Servant:”

1. Israel as the Servant– God’s chosen people, picked to spread the Word of God to the nations. He also indicates that his servant fails Him. This is seen in


42:18 servant is “blind”

43:2, 4-6, 10

44:1, 21, 22 servant told to “return” to God


2. Cyrus as the Servant – to help save the chosen people in a physical way, and lead them





3. A Servant that bears our iniquities– where I want to focus – Isaiah 52-53

New International Version (NIV)

53 Who has believed our message
    and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
    he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
    stricken by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
    and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
    each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
    the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
    yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
    and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
    so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
    Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
    for the transgression of my people he was punished

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
    and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
    nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
    and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,

he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
    and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

11 After he has suffered,
    he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
    and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
    and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
    and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
    and made intercession for the transgressors.

This does not describe the suffering of the persecuted Jew.

Jews in the holocaust, and other times of persecution, as horrific as those times were, never died for the sins and iniquities of others. Their righteousness did not justify others. They did not take up the pain and suffering of others.

They did not pour out their lives for others, because their lives were taken from them. It was not voluntary.

They did not intercede for the transgressors.

The wounds of Jews did not heal anyone.

They were not an offering for sin.

The bible teaches that no man can die for the sins of another, although he can suffer due to the iniquity of others. Sin is a private issue between man and God, and man has to repent and be punished for his own sins.

Isaiah describes this servant as righteous, and innocent. This is further seen in Isaiah 52:

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant

13 See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
   his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
    and his form marred beyond human likeness—

15 so he will sprinkle many nations
    and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
    and what they have not heard, they will understand.

This servant will be exalted by God, and kings will acknowledge him. This is someone who also becomes unrecognizable due to the physical marring of his body and face. This describes an unusual torture and disfiguring.

This would not describe the persecution of the Jews either. They have not been “highly exalted.” They are still persecuted.

So therefore, this servant bears the iniquity of others, dies for their sins, and is highly exalted by God, interceding for the transgressors, bringing in righteousness.

Where Israel had failed God, and Cyrus was just temporary, this servant succeeded, removing iniquity in the one day, when he died, and making God’s righteousness known before the kings of the earth.


So the suffering servant also fulfills Daniel 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Notice that the servant has to reconcile for iniquity before the vision can be sealed up and he can be anointed.

He qualifies himself for the anointing by dying for sin, and reconciling for iniquity with the righteous sacrifice for sins. God exalts him by giving him the kingdom.

Notice also that Daniel also defines the one who fulfills this prophecy as the Messiah, and gives the time he will arrive:

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Notice that Daniel also says that the Messiah will be “cut off,” or killed, and WHEN this will happen, which is what happens to the suffering servant:

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

Notice above, that he is not cut off for himself.

This is because he is cut off for the sins of others.

He is righteous, and has no sin of his own that would merit punishment by God.


Micah 5 further describes this servant – both his earthly and heavenly origins:

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

In verse 3, it is mentioned that he “gives up” his people until she is in travail, and Jews return home again. This is consistent with Yeshua / Jesus “leaving” his people, and telling them he will return:

3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.

He shall achieve greatness, and peace will return when he contends with the Assyrian who invades Israel:

4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.


Daniel’s 4th Beast and MessiahMessiah given kingdom and

authority when 4th Beast appears, by the Ancient of Days – this is the time of the end, when Israel has been re-established and Jews have returned to the land, as predicted in Micah 5:

Daniel 7:

7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

8 “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.

9 “As I looked,

“thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
    and the books were opened.

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.



The suffering servant first had to die to remove the iniquity of others. (Is 53)

He would be “cut off” or killed, but he would also voluntarily “pour out” his life for others. (Is 53, Dan 9)

So, he was not doing this for himself, but for others (Dan 7, Micah 5)

God exalts him by giving him the  kingdom. (Dan 7)

He would also return when the remnant of the Jews returned to Israel (Micah 5)

He would return when the 4th beast arose to destroy Israel and the

world ( Dan 7)

So he comes twice, with 2 different missions.

58 Responses to “Suffering Servant and the Messiah”

  1. Amen

  2. Lot’s of good info there. What hit me at first is something that the churches have totally watered down-again trying to make the Messiah look like a handsome, stoic and successful person to white wash their lives and excuse them from the suffering:

    2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
    and like a root out of dry ground.
    He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
    nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

    3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
    Like one from whom people hide their faces

    4 Surely he took up our pain
    and bore our suffering,

    HE suffered all of His life-not just on the cross, that came at the end of it. The scriptures say from the beginning, not just at the end, that people rejected Him, look! “a man of suffering, and FAMILIAR WITH PAIN”. This implies more than the cross!

    Having troubles? Plagued by problems? Jesus lived His life this way, so don’t feel like you are not a Christian and let those that are around you kick you into the dust. I have to work hard at not getting angry at G-d. I know, keep everything a secret huh? Well, this month has been FULL of troubles, so many in fact that my wife and I can’t keep up with them-that’s more than we can handle by ourselves. My school totally messed up and charged me $6500 they said they would not-and who has to fight them for this? Me. We just lost $400 in income per month. My license to sell was just set back for another 2 months due to gov non-caring and incompetency (just the truth there) we paid them for it already and they gladly took the money. I am doing skin cancer treatments, have deep alergy issues and we were just told our transmission in our SUV is going out-all of this (and more) within around 3 weeks. Others have it worse.

    Why do I mention this? It is because of the FAITHFULL that have suffered for so many years and those that would kick them while they are down-this scripture tells us of OUR L-rd, the trials were NOT just for the end of His life! They were there ALL of His life. YOU ARE OK. You are not a bad person because of this-stay faithful to Him, seek good things, keep your faith going, this is but a moment and Heaven is ETERNAL. We have people that would love for us to get rid of our nice (older) vehicle that is paid for and get something that looks beat up and ugly-and they own homes, have multiple (nice) vehicles and they are jealous of our one vehicle that we share with other family members to get around. Don’t let the vultures get you down. Don’t push Him away, but when you come to your senses, hug Him again-remember Peter if you must, he denied the L-rd 3 times.

    Are you on Food Stamps? Don’t let it get you down! We had to do this because we have 4 kids. We LOVE to work, but wages here are not sufficient to survive and we don’t have enough money to move somewhere else (we have already thought about that). You go where the L-rd sends you. And HE will humble you if He so chooses so you don’t stick your nose in the air, just like many are doing currently. They have totally missed the boat here. (just remember that they will probably come back to Him later, after they realize what we endured, and that the tribulations are hitting them directly, so don’t count them out-just be very careful because the scripture says “brother will betray brother”).

    Have you ever thought that there may actually BE a rapture? But who will be wisked out if there actually is one? It’s confusing isn’t it? Well, what if the ones that don’t know of long-suffering, who haven’t endured the trials and stuck with G-d, who condemn those who are suffering, who are not “SPOTLESS AND WITHOUT WRINKLE,” As only those who have endured the “shame of the cross” (get it-carry your cross daily) have endured? What if those that have had it good all along and are as Rev 3:17 says: “You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.” are the ones left behind…

    We serve our G-d in humility, bearing His suffering, His shame, but we continue on in Him because we know it’s the right thing to do. We may even have His promises and we are getting older-hold on to those promises, don’t give up. One way or the other He will come through.

    • Troy, I am praying for you & your family. We must rely on God for our provisions & thank Him for being our provider. Continue to praise & thank Him for His promises in advance. I have been doing that & things are changing, but it is in God’s timing as you know! So many christians are experiencing big trials. The gov. has been brutal to people, taking & messing things up causing financial hardships. I have experienced that too.
      Be blessed in all you do….

    • Troy,

      The following verses seems to apply to your need (mine and other servants of the Lord), in these last days. Continue the good fight, leaning on, trusting in Him. God bless you and your family.

      “Dear friends, I wanted very much to write to you about the salvation we all share together. But I felt the need to write to you about something else: I want to encourage you to fight hard for the faith that God gave his holy people. God gave this faith once, and it is good for all time…I want to help you remember some things you already know: Remember that the Lord saved his people by bringing them out of the land of Egypt. But later he destroyed all those who did not believe…

      But you, dear friends, use your most holy faith to build yourselves up even stronger. Pray with the help of the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves safe in God’s love, as you wait for the Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy to give you eternal life.

      Help those who have doubts. Rescue those who are living in danger of hell’s fire. There are others you should treat with mercy, but be very careful that their filthy lives don’t rub off on you.

      God is strong and can keep you from falling. He can bring you before his glory without any wrong in you and give you great joy. He is the only God, the one who saves us. To him be glory, greatness, power, and authority through Jesus Christ our Lord for all time past, now, and forever. Amen” (Jude 1:3-25, ERV).

      Then there is this message ~

      “But the day when the Lord comes again will surprise everyone like the coming of a thief. The sky will disappear with a loud noise. Everything in the sky will be destroyed with fire. And the earth and everything in it will be burned up. Everything will be destroyed in this way.

      So what kind of people should you be?

      Your lives should be holy and devoted to God. You should be looking forward to the day of God, wanting more than anything else for it to come soon.

      When it comes, the sky will be destroyed with fire, and everything in the sky will melt with heat.

      But God made a promise to us. And we are waiting for what he promised—a new sky and a new earth. That will be the place where goodness lives.

      Dear friends, we are waiting for this to happen. So try as hard as you can to be without sin and without fault. Try to be at peace with God. Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient.

      Our dear brother Paul told you that same thing when he wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him. That’s what he says in all his letters when he writes about these things. There are parts of his letters that are hard to understand, and some people give a wrong meaning to them. These people are ignorant and weak in faith. They also give wrong meanings to the other Scriptures. But they are destroying themselves by doing that.

      Dear friends, you already know about this. So be careful. Don’t let these evil people lead you away by the wrong they do. Be careful that you do not fall from your strong faith. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Glory be to him, now and forever! Amen” (2Peter 3:10-18, ERV).

      Psalm 27:1-3

    • troy

      please keep me posted on how your financial troubles work out. I understand. I am going through an expense that is going to cost thousands of dollars.

      May God bless you and provide for all your needs.

  3. Thank you DJ, good post 🙂

  4. Thank you Marianne. I hope everything works out well for you.

  5. Thanks for the very insightful post. Enjoyed it greatly and is why I visit places like this.

  6. Disagree, both can not be correct. This is a prophecy foretelling what the nations and their kings will exclaim when they witness Israel’s rejuvenation. The nations will contrast their former scornful attitude toward the Jews with the realization of Israel’s grandeur. The prophecy of 53 actually begins with 52.13-15. Looking at it closer may reveal a more logical and reasonable understanding of this prophecy.


    52.13. Behold! My Servant will prevail; he will be exalted and become high and exceedingly lofty. 14. Just as the multitudes (rabim) were astonished over you (sham’mu), saying, his appearance (marehu) is too marred to be man’s (meish) and his visage (mibb’ney) to be human (adam), 15. so will the many nations exclaim about him, and kings will shut their mouths in amazement for they will see that which had never been told to them, and will perceive things they had never heard.

    52.13. Behold my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. 14. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men; 15. So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had heard shall they consider. (KJV)

    **Notice the personifying additions and contextual eliminations in KJV translations of theses verses? Would this not mislead the innocent?

    NOTE: The words “shammu, marehu” have a “vav” (u) at the end and is usually the third person of the word “our.” Example would be; astonished over “our desolation,”(sham’mu) “our appearance”(marehu) …….etc.

  7. marianne
    you say

    He would be “cut off” or killed, but he would also voluntarily “pour out” his life for others. (Is 53, Dan 7).

    I say I don’t find anywhere in daniel 7 that the messiah will be killed for others only in Daniel 9:26. please explain!

  8. Sorry, slightly off topic, but not really considering WE are the ones suffering. I wonder what this has to do with our times…

    They are prophecized to defraud people of their money, like the banks and our homes… Look!

    Jas. 5: 5:1 Go to now, [ye] rich men [the wicked rich], weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. 2 Your riches are corrupted… 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days [God has allowed the wicked to accumulate all kinds of treasure for His use in the last days].

    4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth [the fraudulently withheld money of the harvesters is crying out to God]: and the cries of them which have reaped [the unpaid and underpaid harvesters are also crying out to God] are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth [the Lord of Host is listening to the cries of each].

    5 Ye [the wicked rich] have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned [and] killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.

    Straight from the Bible:

    5 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

    Patience in Suffering

    7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

    10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

    12 Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

  9. Jesus said – He’s already come and ye did not know it. They must not of thought it was HIM.
    The Spirit of Elijah in John had already come and introduced the Messiah. They must have not believed in their Prophet that was sent to them. They did not believe in Moses either. Wanted to kill him. After all the signs wonders, miracles, and opening of the red sea. Their hearts were not in leaving Egypt was the problem. Israel wanted to stone Moses. After 400 years in Egypt they got to like those pagan gods. They did not have to have any “faith” in Egypt. They was in their “comfort zone” yet crying for help.

    The N.T had a dark ages as well. It will be the same way today as in Jesus day. A thief in the night. You should have already experienced the ” 2nd. Coming” . Paul said to look at Israel for an example. They had no Faith=Revelation of Jesus Christ – He’s already here and come and gathering His People. But most do not understand it. We were once children but Gods expects us to become mature adults and understand His Word today. Not just guess at it. The dark ages of “denomination” have blinded the church world as a whole.

    Israel went right on to church right after killing Jesus Christ their own Messiah. Thinking they were right in killing that false Messiah. Jesus said it will be the same in our day. But He told His disciples “ALL THINGS” – After their experience with the 2nd. Coming – They understood then. They got in the Word and left all the fanaticism of the Scribes, and Pharisee’s =acters only. They fulfilled Matt. 13: 14-23 – they understood it. AFTER JESUS CAME INTO THEM. Then Paul arrived on the scene to put it all together for them. Another Prophet.

    Today the modern church says we are taught by the “Son of God” only. Oh that is real spiritual but not true. And that’s why the modern church is doomed and already have the “Mark of the Beast” . It is so “mysterious” but yet that is the truth. The Majority of Israel had the “Mark of the Beast” in Jesus day.
    And also read in Eze. 9. The Priesthood had the “Mark of the Beast” in that day. That is where judgment started – then it went right on down to congregation.
    Guess what – Cain had the “Mark of the Beast ” in his day. He was a brother to Abel and son of Adam. Judgment starts in the House of God first. Cain was in the congregation but was deceived by having his own religion.

    If a “computer chip” is going to make you have the “Mark of the Beast” Then the Modern educated Church ought to be working on making a “computer chip” that will produce Holiness and Understanding of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
    Today the modern church needs to experience the “2nd. coming” and Gather with Christ NOW. Its a “Message” the Word calling you out of all sin and doubt = IT IS JESUS CHRIST LIVING IN YOU NOW not some futuristic advent. Have you had your Advent.

    Have a good day – God bless you

    • The Bible reads the mark of the beast is in the last 3.5 years of the peace treaty with the many. One has to swear an oath to the lawless one before one can have the mark of the beast.

      I realize people can be deceived, and possessed by evil spirits, but that is not the same as the mark of the beast.

      This is how I understand the Bible Tom.

  10. I think this is all about helping each other grab the rung on the ladder over our heads, or hold onto the ladder while the winds ripple and the rain beats against our faces. The ladder is long and we all climb it. The angels are around us now a force to help and encourage, to protect. I feel the light of His presence. The cloud is beautiful, so many who have given their lives here even unto the death/life…

  11. Saito – Very Poetic post very good – but some day the rungs are going to run out. We better try and help all we can while there might be just one or two left. Remember Noah’s day. Jesus day in 70 Ad, Every nation had its day. And had its life and then died. No more rungs for them.

    When all the 2nd. coming signs are not here anymore. What’s the majority of the church got to say to their people. WOW we were like Israel’s Sanhedrin completely blind to the last rung. And didn’t know it. So sad.

  12. Saito,

    Your post of James 5, (“Go to now, [ye] rich men [the wicked rich], weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon [you]. Your riches are corrupted… Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days”) is similar to the message within Revelation chapter 3 – to the angel of the church in Laodicea:

    “I know what you do. You are not hot or cold. I wish that you were hot or cold! But you are only warm—not hot, not cold. So I am ready to spit you out of my mouth. You say you are rich. You think you have become wealthy and don’t need anything. But you don’t know that you are really miserable, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I advise you to buy gold from me—gold made pure in fire. Then you will be rich. I tell you this: Buy clothes that are white. Then you will be able to cover your shameful nakedness. I also tell you to buy medicine to put on your eyes. Then you will be able to see.

    “I correct and punish the people I love. So show that nothing is more important to you than living right. Change your hearts and lives. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in and eat with you. And you will eat with me.”

    Saito, I think He is at the door as “Judge” (James 5:9) – seal 4 is about to open.

    Psalm 25:1-5

  13. “Sing, O ye heavens; for the Lord hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the Lord (Jehovah) hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

    Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish…” (Isaiah 44:23-25, KJV).

    This link is Handel’s interpretation of this powerful Scripture.

    Tonight (beginning at sundown until tomorrow evening) is Feast of Atonment – Yom Kippur.

    I’ll be posting in another page the importance and significance of this Feast Day.

    Psalm 49

  14. Bro leatherneck – you said -The Bible reads the mark of the beast is in the last 3.5 years of the peace treaty with the many. One has to swear an oath to the lawless one before one can have the mark of beast.

    I really do not understand how any one could misunderstand the meaning of the “Mark of the Beast” – I’ve stated so many times on this forum.
    You only going to Hell or Heaven. —– You Lost and do not know Jesus Christ – then you going to Hell – If you “Born again” and know Jesus Christ and Have His Spirit in you. You going to Heaven. The Worldly man is in a Worldly dimension and is dead in trespasses and sins. The Spiritual man is in the Heavenly dimension and has the Holy Spirit in them.

    If man serve’s Satan – you are still in the Worlds dimension, and are not in the dimension of Heavenly things. Paul says in Eph. 2:1-8 You have been Quickened = morphed into heavenly things by your New Birth Creation.

    No New Birth Creation you still in your sins – And the same as a Beast = dog and not in the Kingdom of heaven. Rev. 22:11:16 – Dogs = Beast do not enter into the Heavenly Gates of the City.

    The Worlds spirit is the natural man that is lost. Being influenced by the Human spirit and Soul. Meaning you are a Terrestrial man. Not a Celestial heavenly being. The Terrestrial man is still earthly. Lost and undone.
    Its all about your Character change.

    That is the difference between the Mark of the Beast – and – the Mark of God.
    The Worldly man has the human spirit guiding him and on his way to hell. The Celestial man has the Holy Spirit guiding him and living in him. He is a Heavenly man.

    Its not really hard to understand if you will just let yourself be free from the traditions of men. I’m not judging whatsoever. Just trying to help and give my Revelation out as well as others do on here. Lord bless you Leatherneck.

    Mark means your “Character” acter – who do we act the most like in this life.
    Who has our attention the most in this life, conversation the most in this life etc. etc.

    bro. ty

    • Sorry, you are not understanding the Bible clearly. Paul is correct, but you are confused about the mark of the beast. One must swear an oath to worship the beast, or his image in the rebuilt Temple to receive the mark of the beast. It is clearly written.

  15. Saito – amen brother – just adding my own thoughts with yours as well.

  16. Leatherneck – An Oath is swearing allegiance to whoever you choose. In this case it is the “Tree of Death” or the “Tree of life”. It is simple. That is what caused the fall dear Brother.

    If you living for the World you are in allegiance with the World – Its called in the Bible the “Course of this world as well. The only way to get out of the allegiance or oath is by the Blood of Christ and excepting His kingdom to live in. = The Holy Spirit ruling your life not the human spirit ruling your life.

    The Anti-Christ has his kingdom’s= Nations — Jesus has His Kingdom – you are walking in one of these two right NOW.

    Spiritual wickedness in high places. Is men ruling in High Positions over the common people and making slaves out of them. And taking over their natural seed.
    REVELATION 18:9-13 – Its about Babylon “satan kingdoms of Nations”
    9. ¶ And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning, – – Their lives were in oath with her.
    13. And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and “”SOULS OF MEN ‘”.
    You need to read the scriptures in between 9-13 – its all about Civil and Religious governments of men over men.

    Jesus said in REVELATION 2:3-6 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
    4. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    6. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

    I You love the World then you have “satan still in you” – But if You love “Jesus you will have the Guide to all truth “in you” the Holy Spirit. It only seeks Heavenly places.

    We were all born with an fallen oath to Satan – So is it the same with Jesus Christ when he” raises you up” out of the World and all your desires change to loving Jesus Christ. What oath do you live by.

    Bro ty

    • Tom,

      You use scripture to hide your misunderstandings, and hope it will cloud your error.

      Revelation 13 15-17 is about the mark of the beast. Paul was not writing about that, he was writing how men can be bestial. You are confusing the two as the same thing, and hoping to cloud the issue by printing the Bible.

      Good day,

  17. ty,

    Great point you made with this statement –
    If You love the World then you have “satan still in you” – But if You love “Jesus you will have the Guide to all truth “in you” the Holy Spirit. It only seeks Heavenly places.

    There are many verses to underscore your point. But, I think there will be a “mark” which must be applied to buy or sell, which arrives after “he” is revealed.


  18. thank you DJ – Isa. 54 says to all that thirst come and buy –
    Spiritual buying and selling is for the soul. — In the Spiritual Realms buying and selling is to what you are putting in you Temple – Spiritual Temple which is your Body, Soul, and Spirit. That is what will defile you Jesus said,

    The Mark has been so elusive to the Church for hundreds of years of Dark ages. Not understanding the Complete Restoration that has Come Now. Its here. Christ is “revealed” by His Word just as you said.

    I do believe a great famine is coming to the world – and it will be a “famine for the natural food — But the one that will send you to Hell with be the famine of the Spiritual food. We can already see it plain as day amen.

    Lord Bless you DJ —–bro. ty

  19. Dear Leather neck – you said — You use scripture to hide your misunderstandings —
    Question – what do you use dear brother. Traditions are deadly poison in any age.

  20. So, what do you think?

    • Saito,

      I’ve read the link twice (days apart). So now, I’ll share the link with someone who is receiving similar communication (intel) from the Lord. Similar in style/presentation and in substance.

      My friend only shares with those she trusts.

      There are many within da church (religion) that don’t accept such messages.

      There are many within da church that would think she is nuts (misguided, mislead). And, while they say that they understand /accept the gifts of the Spirit – never sit down and listen/talk with someone with such a gift. They do all the taking and know it all already. I could go on about such leaders (religious) within da church (religion).

      She is not nuts, does not worship other gods (money, position/prestige, pleasures of the world). She does not seek attention and is a diligent servant (trust and obey), trying to “walk in the light as He is in the light”.

      I’ve “tested the spirits” – discerning the messages (intel) she shares with me. Therefore, by the Spirit which guides me and by the Word (key test), I’m satisfied and accepting – I trust her and the the gift of prophecy that she speaks – liken to Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel messages we read in Scriptures.

      I don’t know this guy who posted the message within the link – but there is a lot of similar intel within his post and what my friend has said for the past year or so.

      I’ll get back to you tomorrow, following up with what she says of the link.


  21. Am I dealing with Jews pretending to be sheep, but are wolfs in sheep clothing? Am I dealing with those who hate Christ?

    Speak up girls!

    • Leatherneck
      I am a christian and jesus has told me this is the truth. Jesus is one one of two witnesses in Rev. 11 and he is the child (Micheal) who gonne rule the world with iron rod in Rev. 12 and there is a path were jesus freaks out and this path is stopped so he will not fullfill the second beast in Rev 13 but if this path would not be changed then he would fullfill the second beast in Rev 13 and forced everyone too were shema on the right hand and on the forehead on everyone. without shema (Deu. 6:4-5) no one could buy or sell. but jesus will force jews to follow the laws too 100 % and that means that jews must wear shema on the hand and on the forehead but he will not force it on the right hand or buy or sell thing.
      God bless Israel

    • leatherneck


      some commentors are just eccentric

  22. Bro. Leatherneck – will you try and read this with a open mind. And anybody else. Lets not isolate one scripture when Word explains Word.

    REV 13:11- ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. — a beast is a “Nation of people” with religion of some kind.

    A. This is the United States – coming up out of America but not out of the Waters or Seas of men. America was a virgin land till the white man moved in. = A Beast is a Nation – check out Daniel and you will see for sure. Rome and the little toes represent the ending of Anti-christ nations of the world- The Iron on the ten toes symbol for Imperial Rome that took over the World with their Caesar’s Pontiff Maximus. The clay is for what took over in their place when Iron Rome fell and took a deadly wound. Clay in false religion. In whole world. Rome still rules by religion now.
    B. It was Papal Rome raising up in dark ages and finally America the Great empire started to build their great empire out of a virgin land – earth and not the Seas. Read Rev. 13:1-3 the first beast came out of the sea = multitudes of people = Europe. But America is the Lamb and dragon. Lamb first then today it’s a dragon. Warmonger’s just like old Roman Empire and their lust for expansionism of the world is what killed them. America became the Lamb first and was Christian in thoughts and traditions but has today became part of the Dragon which is seen today. Freedom has produced paganism and it has taken over Christianity just as Israel was taken over by influence of the nations especially Rome. After all the great Revivals USA had look at her now. Backslid for good. By freedom –

    Next America
    REV 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. — From Roman Imperialism to Religious Papal Imperialism in today’s world. She still rules over Christianity. The “deadly would’ has been healed thanks to U.S. She’s even got Protestants wearing turned around collars. No such thing as a Protestant today. Most no one come’s against her and her doctrines that multitudes love so much to believe in.

    REV. 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, — We did have great revivals and miracles in America at the turn of the last century. Producing great wonders, and miracles, healings, great repentance, and yes our great Nation dropped the first Atomic Bomb and it was like Fire come down from heaven. As eye witnesses have said the exact quote who seen it. – Who could make war with her = America In WW11 – the United Kingdom said the “ the dead were rising out of the sea – an exact quote of the Word of God which was for our times. The skys were full of deadly gas in to Jews camps and torturing millions and starvation of millions. WW1 Deadly gas was put into the air fulfilling the scriptures = wormwood etc. . We have short eyesight and memory. A couple hundred years is only a second in God mind.

    REV 3:14 And “deceiveth them that dwell on the earth” by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. —-“That image” is all over the World right NOW the Pope of Rome is the “Image” that all Nations have to deal with in this time. Its the revised Roman Empire. How can we not see the Uniting time of all Nations coming together AND in the World council of Churches who’s head is Pope of Rome of the religious systems of today. But she will be taken down soon by Russia I believe. In one hour. That could be Rome and USA. For her sins are great.

    REV 13:15 And he = satan had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. —-
    Yes Pope or Catholic church revised their whole approach to Christianity in the 1961 Vatican meeting held in USA . No more speaking in Latin in most Catholic church. They started preaching to their people in their own language. They also infiltrated most all church’s especially the TV networks and bigger church’s, with a much friendly Catholic church Till it has reached and has taken over TBN – and most every Christians thought pattern’s by their traditions and most all others in its grasp. This is what is the MOST DECEIVING part . IT IS NOT SEEN BY THE CHURCH. They believe mostly Catholic doctrines of devils. That is the anti-christ today. Unseen and very deceiving. And yes the multitudes have loved her and make love to her ways. The Easy way. The ways of Baal is right in front of the whole World and who can see it. Paganism at its best. Worship of Man – Tell me that the Pope is not Worshipped by mankind. You would be lying . Yet it is excepted all through the World.
    The world is 666 perfect manmade religion. After Nimrod and the Caesars, and Supreme beings in governments. Mankind is our God is this generation.

    REV 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: —-The Mark is Character or Exact Image, Badge of servitude, exact copy, – where do you get deceived – IN THE MIND – YOUR ARM -flesh does servitude to your MIND thoughts.

    REV13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. —- This is already been in your History books so you know its true. Israel had Excommunication of people who did not believe the way they did. The Catholic church did the same thing in the Dark ages killing and torturing millions of innocent people and Christians.
    Today is has just gotten a lot more deceiving. They do not kill you in America yet. But it will no doubt come. Who killed Christ – Rome -beast and Israel-the church. Same in American going on right now.
    Just try and teach anything other than Catholic dogma and see how far you get. The Sad thing is you will not listen to nothing else. You are so scared of the anti-christ that has already molded most minds into a anti-christ. And you do not want to except anything but Catholic dogma’s and you are happy in that. Israel was to. They joined with a pagan nation with many gods to Kill Jesus Christ the Only God. That is the “Mark of the Beast”.

    Bro. ty

    • I have no problem pointing the finger at the Universal Church for bringing paganism into Christianity. But, I am not Catholic. Nor, do I uphold the pagan beliefs of the Universal Church. Child baptism, Mary remained a virgin after giving birth to Christ, Purgatory, and evil men using the Bible to carry out murder G-d never ordained are but a few examples.

      That being written, I understand the symbolism of the beast rising out of the sea, and the earth. I also know Revelation is talking about a fallen Angel being held, then let lose to do Lucifer’s bidding in the last 3.5 year of the peace treaty with the many.

      The lawless one will be indwelled by this evil spirit. Tom, you have made the whole Bible symbolic, and you are unable to understand when the Bible is referring about symbolic events, and literal events.


  23. Bro. Leatherneck and all – All we have to do is go back to the O.T and check out the words that are in the Book of Revelations – Its amazing what you can find out. Like Stars, Moon to blood, Sun darkened. What most do not see. Is that the Literal event happens and the world and dis-believing church does not see it. Just look at Jesus 1st. coming. So plain to see what I just said.

    The advent was gone yet they still looking for Messiah and asking God to send the Messiah in the Jewish church’s not even knowing they killed him. Do you see the Darkness in their land. It was Spiritual darkness. Remember Judgment starts in the house of GOD – Read Eze. 9 – who had the Mark put on them. The church first. Blinded by lust, arrogance, greed, immorality, adultery, Idol worship. Just read that one Chapter. Its happened right now in our whole world. In the Church. Only the Married Bride will see it. She knows her Husband intimately.

    Most all church’s today have everything in the future. Especially their SUPERHUMAN anti-Christ man in the future. Of course any anti-Christ will have a devil in them. So please explain to me. A devil is a devil or not a devil. I will say that the anti-christ will be a very, smart, intellectual, educated, modern Church system that will be full of demons and anti-Christ. AS it says that in the Bible and in Revelation.

    Now who run our life before we had Jesus Christ Spirit in us.
    We talking on the same subject and same thing. Just in a different format. As Hitler was the Head Christian devil in Germany. So was all his disciples driving the people right into hellfire. Why cannot regular people understand the Truth. Stalin was a head devil in Russia. He had his own soldiers killed if they took one step back when their higher up said go forward. That is a fact. And that is a human devil in leadership. Empowered by the people in most cases to step up into the Nations and rule with a “rod of iron” over them and making slaves over them by THIER DOCTRINES OF THE WORLD.

    The whole Point is that all things could already be over and like Israel they did not see it cause they was blind by their Devilish leaders that led them to slaughter in 70 A.D. They caused their whole Nation to go into the ” Abomi-“Nation of desolation”. It says so in the Bible. What’s happening to America right now in front of our eyes. Abomination of Desolation by our leaders that we elect to rule over us and make us slaves. Rev. 18

    Surely this is not hard to understand. The church has the anit-christ talked up so much – you all think he is going to be a SUPERHUMAN being doing miracles and healing and making a Statue come to life and sell you something that will make you evil ,and lost forever. Wake up dear brother and sisters. Its here already and you cannot see it.

    The Fall of mankind caused the CURSE to come upon the earth and Nations. ADAM was his Name. My goodness. Can somebody in these thousands of forum people at least understand this point. Mankind is a SUPERMAN so much that he can go to the moon, make bombs that can destroy the WHOLE WORLD – evil inventions is the miracles of the anti-Christ Nations. Modern medicine oh its stunning how far we have come in Knowledge as Daniel said. Is not this the End of the AGE . America and Israel were blessed until the Glory departed from them. Its happened already to America and its already come and ye did not know it. All that is left for America is the Judgment. When she is under the earth maybe you will believe it then if you survive try and fine me so I can say I warned you all. I tried, and I tried to tell you.

    God Bless – bro. ty

    • The Bible is clear. The lawless one will rule, and if you do not take an oath to worship him, you will not be able to buy, and sell.

      Soon, Old Knob will be thrown down to earth, and out of heaven forever. The Dragons wrath will cause the elect to believe a lie. A counterfeit second coming of Christ.

      With all your unusual statements, I suspect Tom you will be mislead, as you are now.

      I’ve had enough of writing to you, and your weird postings.

  24. The Old Devil was “Cast down” at the Resurrection . Sorry you cannot except this. Its very scriptural.
    The Promises of God are for the “Overcomers” – that means they OVERCOME Satan. He is a fallen creation. We are Kings and Priest, and Sons of David. The Bride Church has already conquered satan and this world. We are a Royal Priest hood, a PECULIAR HOLY NATION – Peter said it not me. That Nation started at the Resurrection of Christ. Its the NEW ISRAEL of GOD NATION. Most are still waiting on it. Mostly cause you have been taught under paid false prophets that love their career more than telling the Truth to their congregations. Believe those fairy tales if you want to. I pray the Lord bless you Leatherneck in the truth of revelation of the mystery that is in Christ.
    bro. ty

  25. No, nothing has been thrown out of Heaven yet, that is still to come. I know they are there still, all of them. they sit at seats meant for them, and they constantly stir trouble for the saints. Same accuser of the bretheren accusing us all from Heaven, and Y’shua helping us and innerceding to the Father in our behalf. Doesn’t matter what we think, it’s what is.

    Demonic activity has been increasing exponentially here, as more are let loose from hell. there is an incredible array of things in Heaven, the likes of which we have only seen small glimpes of.

    We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities in high places. I would never presume to call the adversary “old devil” you could not quantify his age according to our standards, or the angels or G-d’s for that matter.

    We are more than conqerors through Christ Jesus, true, but you have to have conquered something to be considered a conqueror. None of us has a moritorium on the truth, and every one of us could be fooled, the Word is specific about that: “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” Matthew 24:24 That means people like you and me that think we can spot a spade if it rears it’s head will have an almost impossible time discerning who is of G-d, that means a whole new level of power coming upon the Earth.

    • People like Madonna don’t help. As high priestess for satan, she called upon the gates of hell to be opened at the NFL game. Others like her are doing the same. So yes, demonic activity is increasing, and while christians are busy watching football, the satanists are getting business done.

  26. Saito – you said
    We are more than conqerors through Christ Jesus, true, but you have to have conquered something to be considered a conqueror.

    Answer – Through Christ we have conquered ” Death, Hell, and the Grave. By Christ Resurrection and opening the Veil that kept us blinded. He opened the Seal that had you sealed in a fallen condition. That is what the 7 Seals is all about.
    Before Christ you was living in Darkness, and Death, hell and the grave was your destiny. The Holy Spirit is GOD in you and lifted the Blindness, of darkness, death hell and the grave off of you. EPHESIANS 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are SEALED unto the day of redemption. HOW LONG – to the day of your redemption.

    Saito -you said
    For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, IF POSSIBLE , even the elect.” Matthew 24:24
    Answer – Meaning It is “Not Possible” . He told his Disciples I have told you ALL things. Believing like this shows NO FAITH and is denying 2 TIM. 3:5
    5. Having a form of godliness, but “denying the power thereof”: from such turn away. We do not have to fear false prophets or Christ signs, and wonders. If we have “faith” we will overcome them all.

    Saito you said:
    None of us has a moritorium on the truth, and every one of us could be fooled, the Word is specific about that.

    If Jesus is not the Truth then He died in Vain for us all. A son of God can be wrong and deceived only for a portion of time. If he is really a God believing brother or sister with Christ living IN YOU. He will show you error by truth.
    JOHN 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    I write this to you Saito cause I care about you. Not trying to preach on you or make you condemned. But truth is truth. If God cannot be my Alpha and Omega , All knowing the beginning from the End. Then we are living are lives in vain because there is no GOD.

    Changing from the World to the Kingdom of God is a process. That is why it is so important to “understand” the Word of Truth. It reveals who and what has been done for you. No Devil can overcome you unless you want him to. When a Christian gets tired of getting beat up – then turn to Jesus with “all your Heart” be open to Him and let Him have the reigns in your life. The Devil is no match even for the weakest of Christian.

    Lord bless you Saito – ty

  27. No Ty, We may be “more than conquerors in Christ Jesus” but HE did the conquering, not you, not me. It doesn’t matter if you care for me or not (got to love your patronizing tone, do you use this often to frustrate your brothers and sisters?)-HE does care for me and that’s what really counts (fear G-d not man), so, as much as I appreciate your dissertation, I find your writing to Leatherneck patronizing, even if he were completely wrong he deserves to be treated with decency, and I find the lack of fear in your tone towards the True and Living G-d disconcerting. You are supposed to be the example of a Christ-like person, this is not a game and G-d is watching every word written on here-both of us will answer to Him for what we write.

    How many have been decieved already? These were the elect amongst us, pastors who were followed by many are now either living in shame or living for money. You sound like an armchair general, unless you have been in the fields and many saved from your efforts (and, sorry, just having them raise their hands for a count doesn’t count), you should not sound like the end-all-be-all of G-d’s Word. Neither you nor I have all the solutions, and since the Word is a two edged sword, there are obviously different perspectives and deeper truths and meanings that only come from the L-rd and the H-ly Spirit, not the wisdom of men.

    having faith is great-go out and tell a tree to be moved into the ocean-tell me how that works out. Obviously there is more to this.

    Don’t purposely misquote and extend what i’m saying to prove your point-I never mentioned that Jesus wasn’t the truth, I simply stated that we could all be fooled-including you and I.

    Try not to predicate your salvation on trumped up statements, you sound like the guy from the movie Titanic, when the ship was going down that stoically said “follow me, I know the way!” and of course he wound up on the ocean floor with many others that followed him.

    I apologize for being so frank, but I’ve heard far too many people waxing eloquently about G-d because they are bored or tired of watching the I Love Lucy Show. People need those who are “real” not preachy, not people that pray prayers full of “thees” and “thou’s” trying to gain the favor of men. the L-rd Jesus turned over the money changers tables because He was fed-up with how people had mis-represented His Father and were leading the people away from Him instead of to Him.

    In short, work out your salvation with fear and trembling, if everyone knew how powerful He really was they would not even mention His name-if you can’t understand that concept no need to reply. G-d knows your heart ty, I know He knows, and YOU know He knows.

  28. Troy and or Marianne – I could understand it more if I did not have scripture with every thing I said. We must except the Scriptures over our own little thoughts. If you knew you child was getting ready to fall off a cliff your love for them would want to save the child. Or even a grown up that ye did not even know. That is trying to help not destroy. If we say we are full of sin and doubt where does that leave you in Christ.

    I wonder if anybody knows what the “Love of God is sometimes”. It’s not some pitiful castdown Im full of sin doctrine and cannot get over it. I can never understand doctrine so it must be that God does not want me to know. You think you are going to actually raise up from the grave and or be a Overcomer in this life. We have GOD living IN US. What is to hard for the Lord.

    I care enough for Saito to at least try to share the Victory that is in Jesus Christ. Im sorry for you if you do not believe you have the victory over sin and unbelief while living on this planet.
    We are a Image of what we believe. And we will be destroyed by what we do not know. Christ the anointing of the Word is a must to be a Christian.

    When everything that was said in his post – was a denial of everything that Jesus Christ actually done for us in the Death, burial, and resurrection.
    His death, burial, and resurrection made it possible for us to be filled with the “Holy Ghost and Fire” that burns out every false conception and lie that is from hell.

    If you and Marianne cannot see that. Their is something seriously wrong with you both. You cannot pet the Devil on the head without getting bit sooner or later.

    JOHN 10:10- The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. = overflowing blessings
    JOHN 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    JOHN 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    JOHN 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

    I understand being fooled by hirelings. I was taught nothing but false doctrine for 10 years in the Pentecostal church then went to Charismatics same thing, Then set under a Spirit filled Baptist theologian. Still just a half a message. Then I ran into a Prophet yea a Prophet indeed with Thus saith the Lord. no grey area to lay in and die.

    We ALL have to have correction to grow up. That is true love not some fake emotional wine and boo hoo. If we want to wine and boo hoo – do it while on your knee’s asking the Lord For more Power to speak to our mountain so they will disappear. And if we do not know something then ASK somebody if they know it.

    I get joy by trying to help someone. Sometime as Jesus did often. You have to destroy the false to help others out in a positive way. Or just let them stay with the hireling shepherd and die. Which one is Love – I ask for nothing from nobody. I do it out of love for Gods people no other motive.

    Bro. Ty

  29. You know, I’m not trying to be offensive here ty, so please don’t take offense. You sound to me like so many endoctrinated by the church. I know it’s a waste of my time trying to get you to see anything because you won’t.

    Jesus didn’t call the perfect, he called the sinner, something you are not above, nor I. Until you get that understanding you are just another Pharisee, like I was rasied to be by the church.

    That’s a part of humility-not feeling you are above anyone. You seem to think that getting pounded is punishment and that “you need to let G-d have the reigns” which is so churchy and paid shephard, when the Word says that “many are the afflictions of the righteous, but G-d delivers them from them all”. Do you know what that means? It means they don’t stop until we leave here, and it’s scary if they do. I hope you understand.

    Jesus was here and the only one not to sin, and I truly doubt you are sinless my friend. Overcoming is a lifetime process, not done just because you accept Christ “as your personal savior” and the other rhetorical statements made by a flawed church. You have been endoctrinated to believe you are sinless, and probably feel you are going to be right beside the L-rd when He returns, riding a white horse and having the red carpet rolled out for you. I’ve heard it often from boomers who give money to the paid shephards and listen to their poison.

    I don’t want to be in the front-let the others that have laid down their lives go there, it’s not my place.

    A person can know the Word from the front to the back and not understand it-that’s the double edged sword.

    You seem greived that I don’t accept your “correction” but I really don’t feel you know what you are doing and I sense absolutely no spirit of discernment in you-it doesn’t matter who you sat under to learn if you didn’t recieve the right training.

    • Do not worry about this…..everyone here is equal to the others….no matter what someone says….we all fall short of the glory of God…..which is why we need a savior.

      much of the disagreement can be traced to an interpretation of scripture, rather than “sinful hearts”

      One is more metaphoric and the other is more literal…there is truth on both levels.

  30. Thank you Marianne and Ty. I appreciate Ty’s trying to help others and give sound advice.

  31. Ok. Here goes. (book follows)

    So, you see people in the OT and it’s so stoic and beautiful, like a movie right? Well, everyone seems to think (or most nowadays) that you make a good christian (believer) or apostle, or evangelist or prophet or pastor or teacher, by sending them to bible college and then on to seminary school, if they seem like a nice person and responsible leadership, then you make them an assistant, then perhaps a youth pastor and then forward them on. Or, they take on a teachers role. That’s it. there are some other “lay” tasks as they like to put them. But the whole thing neatly shoves everyone into a couple of molds that are easily controllable-only G-d isn’t shoved into a mold.


    So you want to be a prophet? I’ve heard so many say “I want to be a martyr like the Apostles” and they would even read to the youth about how these people died. The only thing is this is a fairy tale (to them) and they think their lives are going to be so fantastic right up until the day they die, right? I’ve seen it, I’ve heard it, and they love the attention they get while claiming this, but when G-d comes up to them and says “you have to go up in rank in order to do this my child, are you ready for your trials?” They may either say “ok” unwittingly agreeing spiritually to a set of terrible circumstances in their lives. Or they may run when He asks them, so, fairy tale disolved for that one-real trials ensue.

    Then, you may or may not pass the first series of testing, this will test your resolve, if you pass… You move on to the next level. “do you want to move on to the next level in Me?” asks Y’shua. Well, you either say “yes” or you run. So, let’s say you say yes. Ok, the trials get deeper. they are customized to the position that the L-rd wants to put you in at their completion, only, the greater the position with Him, the more humility you are “granted”. Meanwhile, you will loose your job, or your wife, or your health, or perhaps various levels of each. This is another step towards the goal-

    Then, if you get that right (and you will not know if you have passed by your own reckoning because you gain “sight” as you go along, and it isn’t there clear enough in front of you to be able to look backwards on the circumstances enough to understand what you are going through. Thrown down into the pit (Joseph?) You start to get a special training geared to your future in Him. He may even put you in a brothel, you may be a prostitute (yes, He tends to save these people especially) or maybe a janitor, or He may even put you into a humble work position where you have to work with the most vile and disgusting people you have ever met-ask me how i know (homosexuals, and not “nice” ones, thieves, liars, mean, and worse heathen pagen rituals like burning man) and you will be told now what to do-so you know that you have to stay where He put you until released (emphasis on that word). any other path you take will get you hurt or make you and your family suffer much more.

    Then… you may pass that part and you are on to the next. Pounding! Pounding more! (Job?) loose that job (position). stress your family out to the max, be tempted by all things (Jesus was by the way, and that includes EVERYTHING, scripture is not wrong) so, a pretty girl may be seated right across from you and do every possible thing to get you seduced, everything possible (this may happen on several jobs, hardening you to this). This person will be customized to fit your wants and desires, only the wrong desires. So, you may well pass that test-you move on.

    Then, you may get fired for sharing the gospel with your Jewish boss, whom didn’t realize you were a christian when you were hired, he may even demand that you elaborate and state you are a christian, then, all of the sudden a couple of days later you are gone, after investing months in doing everything possible to do well. he may even berate you constantly because he is insecure and that pretty girl like you and not him, but, you leave this mess. move on to the next challenge.

    by now you start to get tired. your health will have been hit in many ways, you are getting older and feel it, your hormones may even be peaked, and you will have to tow the line no matter what happens, staying away from sin, which picks up after you even more-why? because now Satan sees that you are going through the fires, and doesn’t like what he is seeing-you are moving forward. does this make you perfect? do you not fail along the way? There are ways we fail in our own hearts, where we yell at someone, or are spent and we take it out on customer service, etc. G-d doesn’t tell us everything about Joseph or what the prophets endured before they passed and went on in their field, but we do see Y’shua stating that a prophet is not honored in his home town, why? Because that’s where they endured shame, reproach and hell. And, so also, we won’t know what is failing and what is passing, in fact, you will be put down so often and so much as to “not be able to raise your head over anyone else”.

    Don’t like something? Get disqusted thinking about cleaning up other people’s vomit? or cleaning up after suicides? Well, that’s all a part of life, and may be a part of your testing. You see, G-d trains those He loves, and he won’t put a newbie out there in the field as a General, or Captain, etc. they have to be fully trained before He will set them out, especially the big tasks.

    You won’t die from these trials, but you may even have a spirit telling you that you are going to die, a spirit of fear, where you will not be able to magically make this spirit go away-it is a test and a long one, perhaps 3 and a half years? And it will tell you every day with every little problem your body has or every irregular heartbeat that you are going to die, “write your will today”, “say goodbye to your kids”-“you are dead!” Ok. when you pass through this fire you move on. You may even take a dry pill and have it block your throat so you can’t swallow it, you can’t breath, and your petite little wife has to do the heimlick manuever on you and so saves your life. The pill barely dislodges but causes nerve damage and then everything you eat can get stuck in your throat-for months, how about over a year?

    You may be evicted, by an unscrupulous landlord, and G-d means for this to happen to you and your family-but, suprisingly enough the landlord actually has to pay you to move out-a victory but also a defeat.

    You may have to depend on lying and theiving relatives that steal your inheritance and then you have to go to them for money to survive-knowing they laid the plot in advance to take that inheritance money away from you (and actually planning on how to take away every dime from the elderly person that has it in the first place). They will spit on you every chance they get and you have to care, pray for them, and make peace even when you are thrown into the dirt by them (les miserables?)

    You may get to a point where you cannot get a job but your wife can. OK, doesn’t sound that bad does it? only you barely survive and every day you wish/hope to get hired but realize that you are older now and that is not happening for you. If it does you wonder which theatre you will be standing at the doorway of opening doors for people. You are further shamed because you can’t find work and they look at you and laugh that you would even go into their store and ask for such a job.

    You may be in a home that is poisened, but you cannot figure out how or why. Your body and your wife and kids are acking in pain, suffering in allergies, hardly any energy and you have to stay there because you are selling off belongings to survive and don’t have the money to move.

    All the while, after G-d has appeared to you in spirit, anointed your head with oil and encouraged you through all of these trials, given you personal promises and groomed you for “something” you will hope for death, you won’t see an end to this, you will weep for your family and you will hope every day for your release-because you are in Joseph’s prison cell with your family, waiting for Pharoh to send for you.

    Oh, yes, then there are the times the enemy actually tries to kill you, not just a threat, but very near to death, tornado in the middle of a lake, ski accident that was impossible to have lived through let alone be without a scratch, car accidents where you should have been wiped out but the car isn’t even damaged, people that move in next to you with a death wish and you testify to them, and afterwards they tell you later on that they had intended to kill both you and your family as their last evil act of desperation in life.

    It’s not glamoruos like people think. and until you see the light of day and are finally standing on the ground outside of your “cell” seeing the promises fulfilled and everyone else seeing them, this road will be dry, barren, the air will be polluted and you will die every day until you pass the final exam, and then, even with that it is only to help protect you from the things that will hit you when you have power.

    OH, and then people will tell you that G-d is punishing you for being evil, but you will know that you have lived your life as close to Him as possible, and that’s how you got in His sites, perhaps, in the first place. They will try to cut you down, or make you feel like you are not a true believer to make themselves feel important. you will have to be gracious, try not to be upset, move on.

    So, hopefully others that are going through the fires can see this, hopefuly they will know that there are others that G-d has called, but that being an apostle, evangelist, prophet, pastor or teacher, that is truly ordained not by man, but by G-d Himself, and endorsed by Him, takes much more than believing in a fairy tale-you will be constantly put to the test (count the costs). If you want to have the gift of healing-your salvation may be “free” but your training will be intense-He doesn’t hand those gifts out so you can be crushed by pride-you will have to have a mantle of humility to move on.

    Count the costs…

    Luke 14

    “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

    “And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.”

    “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’ ”

    “Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand?”

    “If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace.”

    “In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.”

    G-d bless.

  32. Troy – I read your post – Yea I believe you know what you are talking about. Just by the experiences you tell about. I have been in the shadow of death more than once. Yet I called on the Lord and HE bought me out. I called on the Lord for my wife who was dying in my arms and the Lord Heard my prayers. Yes Its a hard way at times but its also Glorious to Overcome satan when he tries so hard to overtake you. Christ is all things to me. And without HIM I really believe I would have perished long ago. I almost died at 14 years old in a bad car wreck where my best friend was killed. God had a reason for my life – I try to help people that feel like they cannot Overcome. Cause I could not Overcome like I wanted for years. But through suffering it brought me to “desperations” and that’s what suffering is about. We have to be desperate and then we are willing to Give Him our Whole Heart. That is what it takes.
    Thanks for the compliment. Believe I do not get very many on here. Most think me as a nut. But without nuts the bolts and devices will not hold together. Have a great day.
    bro. ty

  33. Jesus Christ Is God Almighty In The Flesh! Believe Jesus Christ Shed his blood and died for all of our sins on the cross, he was buried and he rose again from the dead three days later by his power and if you believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ then you shall be saved and go to Heaven forever. None of our good works shall save us or anything else will from our sins that deserve destruction and death in a Lake Of Fire for all eternity. Once saved always saved forever by the gospel of Jesus Christ for all our sins. Ephesians Chapter 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians Chapter 15:1-4 And Romans Chapter 3:25. The King James Bible.

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