Taken, the other left

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Who is taken, and where, and who is left behind?

Traditionally, the passage about being left behind has been interpreted as being left behind to suffer tribulation, while the one who is taken is raptured.

But comparing Matthew and Luke, where Luke gives an extra detail, causes one to ponder more about the traditional definitions.

From Matthew:

Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:38   For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

Mat 24:39   And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:41   Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mat 24:42   Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

From Luke:

Luk 17:34   I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Luk 17:35   Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:36   Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luk 17:37   And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body [is], thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Notice the Lord did not say the ones taken were raptured away to be with Him.

The ones “taken” end up with the “eagles.”

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What do eagles do?

Notice in Luke that the Lord is asked where the people were taken. He answers, where the body is….the eagles will be gathered together.

Note, earlier in Matthew, Jesus also said:

Mat 24:28   For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

If the person was raptured, their body would be in heaven.

If the person was not raptured, but taken elsewhere, it sounds like only the body is found after the “taking.”

This implies that the body is dead, or will be killed, and then eaten.

Birds of prey eat dead animals, or kill and then eat them.

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Eagles are differentiated from other broad-winged birds of prey mainly by their larger size, more powerful build, and heavier head and beak.

Like all birds of prey, eagles have very large powerful hooked beaks for tearing flesh from their prey, strong muscular legs, and powerful talons. They also have extremely keen eyesight which enables them to spot potential prey from a very long distance.

Normally, they eat fish or other small animals.

But, can they eat humans?

(1)   Excerpt from this article:

Extinct New Zealand Eagle May Have EATEN HUMANS

Haast’s eagle which became extinct about 500 years ago, researchers said Friday. The researchers say they have determined that the eagle – which lived in the mountains of New Zealand and weighed about 40 pounds (18 kilograms) – was a predator and not a mere scavenger as many thought.

Much larger than modern eagles, Haast’s eagle would have swooped to prey on flightless birds – and possibly even the rare unlucky human.

They compared their data on the Haast’s eagle to characteristics of modern predator birds and scavenger birds to determine that the bird was a fearsome predator that ate the flightless moa birds and even humans.

Scofield said the findings are similar to what he found in Maori folk tales. "The science supports Maori mythology of the legendary pouakai or hokioi, a huge bird that could swoop down on people in the mountains and was capable of killing a small child," he said.

New Zealand paleontologist Trevor Worthy said the study did a good job of proving the eagle was a killer.

"They provide a convincing case that the body of this eagle has rapidly enlarged, presumably adapting to the very much larger prey it had access to in New Zealand, but that the brain size had lagged behind this increase," he said in an e-mail interview. "Convincing data shows beyond doubt that this bird was an active predator, no mere scavenger.

So it is possible that the bodies found, mentioned in Luke, are dead bodies and food for eagles.

(2)  I found another account of how Tibetan priests feed dead humans to eagles in funeral rituals.

http://gl-es.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=44338762572&topic=6362

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Wheat and tares

Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one];

Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Notice that the tares are in a field that God intends to harvest. So the tares do not come from the unbelieving world. They come from the church.

The tares look very much like the wheat, so the farmer has to wait until harvest to distinguish them best.

The tares may think they are safe, being in the wheat field, with the true believers, but they aren’t. God is aware of who they are.

Being in with the wheat only protects them for awhile, until the harvest time.

Notice that the tares are taken first, and destroyed.

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Conclusion

(1)  God will judge the church before He judges the world.

The church will go through a purging, or tribulation of its own, before the wicked of the world experience the wrath of God.

The ones taken are those who are false believers in the church.

We need to question ourselves.

Are we true wheat, the true harvest?

Or are we the tares, pretending to be Christian, but unfaithful in our souls?

Are we tares, and don’t know it? Are we self deceived?

We need to examine the fruit in our lives.

It is a gruesome thought that false Christians could become food for birds of prey, or “burned” and destroyed.

They have the opportunity to hear and believe the Word, yet they mock it and the Christ with their lives, bringing others down with them.

It is time to check our hearts, to see if we are true or false before God, because our judgment will come first.   And very soon.

(2). Where we are located physically, is not as important as where we are spiritually.

When the taking occurred, and the tares were removed, both those taken and left behind were in the same physical location.

I had been concerned about this somewhat when other predictions indicated that certain areas of the country, or world, would be at risk during natural or man made disasters.

There have been warnings to leave the east coast of America, to leave the New Madrid Fault line, to leave California, to leave the Gulf Coast, etc.

I have seen some predictions where all India would have to be evacuated, due to end time flooding, and Christians live there too.

If one looks up end time “flood maps,” one can see huge flooding in various areas.

One can also see maps of invasions, and bombing.

So where is the righteous to go?

These scriptures indicate that God will selectively protect the righteous, and allow the false believers to be plucked out.   All in the same location, wherever it is.

On one street, in one church building, or in one village or town, some will die, and some will live.

So how do the righteous respond, and where do they go to protect themselves?

From Isaiah:

Isa 26:20 ¶ Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Isa 26:21   For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

From Psalm 91

Psa 91:1 ¶ He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

Psa 91:3   Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence.

Psa 91:4   He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.

Psa 91:5   Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; [nor] for the arrow [that] flieth by day;

*** or afraid of the eagles and other birds of prey assigned to eat the wicked!!!

Psa 91:6   [Nor] for the pestilence [that] walketh in darkness; [nor] for the destruction [that] wasteth at noonday.

Psa 91:7   A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee.

Psa 91:8   Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

Psa 91:9   Because thou hast made the LORD, [which is] my refuge, [even] the most High, thy habitation;

Psa 91:10   There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

Psa 91:11   For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

The right location, then, for the believer, is under the protective “wings” of God.

It is not in South Dakota, Oklahoma, or Montana. It is not in Germany, Spain, or China.

The hiding place is in the Lord, not in the world.

There will be terror, evil, and death, all around us, but if we go to the Lord for refuge, we will be safe.

If we don’t, we could be harmed.

Those plucked out will be either

1.  false believers

2.  those who don’t look to God for protection.


157 Responses to “Taken, the other left”

  1. I am trying to figure out how this fits into what I just wrote. Am I wrong? Or are these individuals who are not close to God, but should be.

  2. I’m glad I’m the first to respond. This was really well written. I couldn’t agree more. We’ve been warned. You are inclusive. I have to give you credit for that. Thanks Marianne.

  3. I agree with your ,we do not hide in any place on earth but hide in Yahweh,,,

    • dear Deb and Kitti

      Thank you. We need to spend more time in the Word now, even more than before.

      Jhn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

      Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

      Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

  4. Marianne how very right you are… The parable of Matthew 13-25 through 29 is indeed about the CHristian church where men do not adhere to the true words of god but stray off into cults, like Jehovah’s witnesses, Mormons,
    The harvest however of Matt 13-35 is another parable and action..
    Matthew 13-30 through 42 shows this end time harvest action…V. 33 . ANOTHER parable spake he unto them;
    V. 35 shows this parable is a mystery sealed since the foundation of the world….
    V. 36 shows it involves the entire world…V. 37 and 39 reveals that both Jesus and Satan sow seed…Luke 8-11 reveals this SEED is the word of god…(Satan’s seed of course is lies and deceptions claiming to be words of god..).
    V. 38 shows this actions includes the entire world…and that the sowing of these seeds produce either the children of god or the children of Satan.. These seeds are the gospel of CHrist and the Koran lie…The mystery sealed since the foundation of the world is Genesis 1-26 and Genesis 3-15…When god said LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE.. He knew full well the sowing to the seed of Matthew 13 that would produce these respective images…It was a prophecy in no way connected to the actual creation of man….But rather the remaking of man in times end…
    Genesis 3-15 is about these respective seeds… The seed of the woman (those Christ indwells) and the seed of the serpent that Satan indwells…and the end time battle of head and foot bruising …….It is happening now..
    I hope you do not think I am a know it all bigot… I just want to share some of the things the Lord has revealed to me…
    You are dong a most wonderful work for the Lord…

  5. One other concept that relates to this topic, is the separating of the chaff from the seed through winnowing. Notice how the seed is crushed by a stone mill, then both the seed and chaff are thrown into the air. The result being, since the chaff has no substance (lack of weight), it is blown away with the wind. The seed, due to it’s substance (weight),falls back to the ground to sustain those who partake of it. Notice that it is during the crushing process that the seed and chaff are separated. It is the angels of Yah that gather up the chaff and the tares to be burned. While there will be those who leave this earth for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, we will inhabit this world during the 1000 year reign of Messiah. It is a time to fast and pray, putting distance between us and the world as much as possible. Being in the world but not of the world. Make the hard decisions in all of your everyday matters. If you are in debt, stop borrowing(I am just using this as an example). It is not so much being out of debt that will save anyone during this time, but those who honor the word of Yah and are at least on the path to keeping His Word, no matter the cost. The same principle applies no matter what you are dealing with. The important thing here is to be walking the right path, going the right direction. Some will be ahead of you and others behind you. That’s okay! Start making the hard choices now between Yah’s way and the worlds way. But understand this,He will purify His people by fire, make no mistake about that. I also think it is interesting to note, how many powerful countries have used the Eagle as a symbol of their strength and prowress. Specifically Rome and its end time successor??????

  6. Marianne, thanks again for your marvelous work. It’s so comforting to know the only place we need to seek refuge is in Him…There is no greater love….I feel the Lord pulling me closer & closer everyday, I know many other Christians do too. If we follow the Lord as He is calling us to do we willl be ok…The verses are clear and we need to be clear as to where we are in the Lord. Can you feel the difference in the “air” of the world, even in your own homes and neighborhoods? Ministry begins in the home, sadly many homes are divided or just not of believers at all…Satan is very busy messing things up just as it has to happen for Jesus to come again…So shout joyous praises to the Lord our Savior and King!!….purify and be in love, abide in Him, be thankful with every breath that He abides in us & we in Him …afterall this worldly place is not our home, heaven is!! The gracious gift of peace is ours, we do not earn it…so peace & blessings to all!

  7. Hi Marianne,

    As for this recent post, and the revelation that you express about these verses not being referring to the rapture.
    I have spent the better portion of the day discussing this with others. It is something that we have all found rather difficult to get our head around, when it was something that you had considered for years to represent that event.

    However, all agree that it does appear to be implying something quite different, than what we all once believed.

    Where there seems to be some contention, is where you say that the tares are just the insincere believers of the church. We all agree that they as well, could be included in this event, but since Christ in His explanation of this parable to His disciples explains that the field represents the whole world, those that I have discussed this with believe that this event when it happens, will include the whole world.
    Also with Christ’s explanation as the tares being the sons of satan, it can’t just be only those that have infiltrated the church. They are everywhere.

    What does have everybody concerned about now though, is that all of this appears to happen at the end of the age, before the rapture. That would mean that we might be subjected to going through the whole tribulation thing?
    Even though that appears to be contrary to what Paul says in
    2 Thessalonians 2 especially that of verses 6-8 which many believe is an indication as to when the rapture will take place.

    We all definitely need to pray, submit ourselves to the Lord, and the will of God.

    God Bless all who seek His heart.

    • hi Gregg

      The point about the tares is that they are removed BEFORE the wheat is harvested, and that they are physically located everywhere the wheat is. The wheat is in the whole world.

      If they included all unbelievers, then this would contradict Revelation, where it is the remaining wicked unbelievers who experience the wrath of God.

      So I see it as first the tares are gathered, as in the parable. They are burned. Then the harvest of the righteous, which includes a preliminary testing and judgment. Then finally the wrath against the wicked. In that order.

    • As I have already said. At the end of this age our LORD Yahshua will come with all HIS Saints. Those who remain alive on this earth will be separated. As Scriptures says, the Sheep from the goats. Acording to their treatment of His brethren the Jews so will their judgment be. But the Ecclesia of YAHSHUA will come back as HIS Bride having spent 7 years in the Bridal Chamber while YAHWEH deals with Israel. The Jewish Wedding is a type of the Wedding of the BRIDEGROOM to HIS Bride. Also our LORD said HE was only sent to Israel, the Jews so His words in the Gospels must be understood from the Jewish perspective.

      • Hi Kenneth,

        Just to clarify, Jesus also said regarding the Gentiles, “I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

        That the Gentiles would be included in salvation was also prophecied in the old Testament which says,

        “I will call them My people, who were not My people,
        And my loved one, who was not my loved one. And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
        You are not My people, there they shall be called sons of the living God.”

        This is exactly why the Lord appointed Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles. So, Jesus went to Israel first and then sent Paul to the Gentiles and Peter also preached to the Gentiles, namely Cornilius. So, since the church is made up of Jew and Gentiles, then the information, unless otherwise stated, is for the entire chruch.

      • Kenneth and Don,

        You are right Kenneth that these things need to be understood from a Hebrew perspective. A 7 year pre-trib rapture is bascially an American belief of the church. For those who are the Bride of Yahshua, the marriage supper of the Lamb will last 10 days, starting on Tishri 1 with Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets) and ending 10 days later on Tishri 10 with Yom Kippur (Day of Atonemnet). Following Yom Kippur on Tishri 14 we come to Erev Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles). We dwell (tabernacle) with Messiah from this point on. In Hebrew thought, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb begins on Tishri 1, but the books are not sealed until Tishri 10 (Yom Kippur).

        Hey Don,

        Great scripture you used out of Hosea chapter 1. This might sound like a small thing, but not really. Yahshua is coming back for His Bride Israel, which will be made up of both ethnic and non ethnic Israel(ethnicity is not an issue here). The Jews (for the most part) have never been a part of the church. They pretty much viewed the church as being steeped in paganism. But the great end of all this will be that we will dance on The Mountains of Israel with our Jewish brothers and sisters.

        Be Blessed in the Messiah

        • Hi Al,

          Just clarify, the church and the nation Israel are two separate entities. Thd nation Israel of course is made up of those who did not and do not recognize Christ as their Messiah when he visited. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile with one and the same Lord. Those who are Jewish that are apart of the church are considered as belonging to the church and not as the nation Israel.

          During that last seven years, the woman of Revelation 12 who is Israel (See Gen.37:9-10) is going to give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 that comes out of Israel (gives birth to) who come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah. They are the first fruits to God, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes minus Dan and are caught up to God’s throne.

          The woman (Unblieving Israel) will realize that the man who will have been proclaimng himself to be the Messiah (The beast)then sets up his abomination in the holy place of the temple, which then causes the desolation of Jerusalem, where she is cared for by God out in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years.

          At some point during that last 3 1/2 years, the woman/Israel must come to the knowledge that Jesus is in fact their Messiah, because Jesus said to them regarding God’s presence in the temple,

          “Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

          Otherwise, it is impossible for anyone, whether Jew or Gentile to inherit eteranl life without recognizing Christ’s shed blood as their reconiliation to God and his resurrection for their justification.

          Also, the bride of Christ is always identified as the church, which as I said is made up of both Jew and Gentile. Only those who are believers in Christ will take part in the next phase of the resurrection and catching away. For as it is written:

          “For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with it commnadments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God throught he cross, by wichi he put to death their hostility.
          (Ephesians 2:14-16)

          So, in the verse above, he has made the two one body, that is Jew and Gentile make up the church and are separate from the nation Israel. He destroyed the dividing wall of hosility between Jew and Gentile by abolishing in his flesh the law and its commandments and regulations and therefore creating his church.

          • Hey Don,

            I have a question for you. How do the believeing Jews, the Messianics fit into your scenerio? Since 1948, given the size of the Jewish population, their numbers are exploding. Go tell them that they are part of the Christian Church. Then tell them that keeping the Sabbath doesn’t matter anymore. Tell them that the Feasts of Yah have passed away and have no significance. Tell them that Christmas and Easter should be their Holy days now. Tell them that Sunday (the day of sun god worship) is the day to meet and that they are having ham for lunch. Yah has one people walking two different paths. I am talking about both groups being believers. Not all Jews are believers, just like not all Christians are believers. God is about taking the two and making them one. In Amos 3:3 it says, “can two walk together except they be agreed?” The “Church” (non ethnic Israel) was to provoke the Jews to Jealousy. For almost 2000 years that didn’t happen. In fact, just the opposite. They killed and persecuted them. Now, in these last days, those who are non ethnic Israel, are starting to provoke the Jews to jealousy, with the very things that were given to them exclusively at the first. This is how Yah will make the two one. Not by trying to pressure the Jews into pagan rituals that Yah never gave or condoned to Israel, or who you call the Church. Everyone thinks none of this matters, but it does. Everyone has a choice in what they do here. While the Church has the Messiah, in large part they hold Him in a pagan form of worship. It is better to be ahead of this than behind it. While the Jews will be purged of their unbelief, so the Church will be purged of it’s paganism. It is happening now and will continue until both stand together as One New Man in Mashiyach.

            • Hello again,

              First of all, let me apologize I have offended, as my intention is not to offend, but to content for the truth of God’s word. In regards to your comment and as I stated earlier, any Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah is a member of the church. They are still from Israel, but they are considered as a member of the church.

              Now regarding the Sabbath and the Mosaic law, as I said, no one will be justified by observing the law. A pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin, whom the Lord appointed as apostle to the Gentiles, namely Paul, is the one who wrote this by the Holy Spirit. What God’s word means by law is all of it. We receive salvatioin for sins through the shed blood of Christ, only! It is his finished work on the cross and not by works that we are saved and it is by his resurrection, being the first fruits that we have the same hope.

              The law was added because of transgressions:

              “What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. (Gal.3:19)

              Here is some other information regarding the law being obsolete:

              “Acts 13:38-39
              Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.”

              ” Romans 3:19-20
              Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore not one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

              “Romans 4:13-15
              It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.”

              “Romans 10:4
              Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

              “Colossians 2:13-17
              When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.”

              “Hebrews 7:18-19
              The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.”

              “Hebrews 8:13
              By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.”

              Now, I remind you that these were all written by the apostle Paul, a Pharasee from the tribe of Benjamin, through the Holy Spirt, for as Paul has also written:

              “I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel that I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelatioin from Jesus Chrst. (Gal.1:11-12)

              So, Jesus is the end of the law, regardless of what anyone is practicing, because it cannot, nor could it ever save anyone. The sacrificing of animals had to be done continually because their blood could not take away sin, but Christ has come and is the true passover Lamb without blemish, who has died once and for all. No one will be justified by observing feasts, foods, Sabbaths, festivals, circumcision, etc. Now, someone who is a Jew wants to observe these events because of their heritage, there is nothing wrong with that, just as long as they don’t consider those works as earning their way into heaven.

              If Jesus was standing in front of you and he asked you as to why you should be allowed to inherit the kingdom of God, the answer should be “By your shed blood you made atonment for my sins and you alone.” If anyone’s answer for obtainting eternal life is “Because I kept your Sabbath and I abstained from certain foods, and I kept the feasts, and I was circumsised, then they will not enter in.

              Furthermore, the true believer in Christ is not pagan. Only those who follow after false teachings have departed from the faith. Regarding what day a person chooses to honor the Lord, Paul wrote:

              “Romans 14:5-6
              One man considers one day more sacred than another; and another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.”

              • Hey Don,
                Not to worry my brother, you have not offended anyone. The conversations get intense. If I came off to strong, I am sorry. I need to make one more response to someone else and am pressed for time, but will get back with you tomorrow on what you wrote. Have a good evening.

              • AMEN

        • hi Al

          Remember there is still 3 1/2 years in there somewhere between your dates of start and finish. 🙂

          • Hi Marianne,

            There only needs to be 3 1/2 years if I was speaking of a mid trib catching away. But I wasn’t. The 10 days I was referring to with Kenneth were the last 10 days of the 7th year of the tribulation. Basically a post trib, less 10 days for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

            • hi Al

              so put the 10 days, the 7 years, and the 3 1/2 years together in a sequence. just so I know what you think.

              • Hi Marianne,
                Yom
                Teruah
                || 10 Days
                |———–|———-|
                Begin 3 1/2 7
                Trib Years Years
                Yom
                Kippur

              • Marianne,

                Sorry, it got distorted when I sent it.

              • Marianne,

                I will just explain it in the order it falls:

                The tribulation begins

                3 1/2 years later the middle of the Trib

                On the Feast of Trumpets in the last year of the Trib the catching away for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

                On Yom Kippur, 10 days later, the end of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Yashua sets His feet on the Mount of Olives and submits the nations.

                4 days later by the evening of Tishri 14 (Feast of Tabernacles) Yahshua dwells (tabernacles) with His people and so shall we ever be with Adonai.

                Let me know if that is not clear

  8. Hi Marianne and all,

    I posted some time ago on this subject on another one of your pages. Here is what I believe according to Scripture regarding one taken, one left.

    “Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken the other left.”

    This verse has for the most part been interpreted as the event know as the “catching away” or more popularly know as “the rapture” found in I Thessalonians 4:16 and
    I Corinthians 15:50. Supposedly, the “One taken” are those who are being caught up to meet the Lord in the air, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Therefore, let’s find out what Jesus is really talking about here.

    To begin, we must look at the previous verses. In the beginning of Mt. 24, the disciples are calling the Lord’s attention to the temple and its buildings, that is, their splendor and Jesus says to them:

    ”Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

    Later, when they were on the Mount of Olives, the disciples asked Jesus The following questions:

    “Tell us, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age?”

    The first question is in regards to Jesus response about “not one stone being left upon another.” This is of course is in reference to the destruction of the temple and its buildings in 70 AD by Titus and the Roman legions. The next two questions, “What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age” are synonymous in that, the return of Christ at the second coming to set up His millennial kingdom ushers in the end of the age, i.e. the end of human government and the beginning of His millennial kingdom.

    The prophecy regarding the first question has been fulfilled and the fulfillment of the latter is of course still future and is drawing very near. In regards to His appearing, He said that no one would know the day or the hour of when this would take place. He then gives an example of how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man:

    “As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and [they] knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and [Took] them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.”

    First of all, notice that I put in brackets the words [They] and [Took] to bring attention to the fact that those who are being taken away in the verse are being compared to the wicked who were taken away by the flood, those outside the ark and not the righteous, which is a very important clue pertaining to who those are that are being taken. Then, after Jesus gives the example of ”as it was in the days of Noah”, He says, “This is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Two men will be in the field; one will be [taken] and the other left. Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be [taken] and the other left.” Therefore, those who are going to be [taken] are the wicked, not the righteous. To get a better understanding of who those are that are being taken and where they are being taken, we must go look at the actual event found in Matthew 13:24-29; 36-43:

    “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds amoung the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. The owner’s severants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ ’An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the [harvest]. At that time I will tell the [harvester’s] : [First collect the weeds] and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ “

    Again, I have added brackets in the verses to bring attention to the words contained in them. First of all, this parable is regarding the end of the age, i.e. the return of Christ to set up His kingdom. Later, in the following verses, the Lord explains to his disciples the meaning of the parable stating that the sower of the good seed is the Son of Man (Jesus) and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom (the faithful). The weeds are the sons of the evil one, who are unbelievers and not the chruch and the evil one is the devil. The harvester’s are the angels and the harvest is the end of the age. It is very important to take note that in the parable it states that at the return of Christ, the angels are to “[First collect the weeds] and tie them in bundles to be burned.” So, in the parable of ”one take, one left” and the parable of the “wheat and weeds , the harvester’s (angels) first collect the weeds at the end of the age. These two parables demonstrate that those who are [taken] are the wicked and this event has nothing to do with the catching away, but in fact has to do with the wicked being taken by the angels at the return of Christ.

    The parable here in Matthew 13:24-29; 36-43 regarding the weeds and the wheat is in actuality, the end-of-the-age-event of the “one taken and one left.” The mention of the wicked being tied into bundles and being thrown into the furnace is in reference to them being cast into Hades until the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the millennium. Now, just to solidify this position, in regards to the “one taken”, let’s go look at the same account found in Luke 17:34-37:

    “I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, ‘Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.’

    The above would indeed be a strange repsonse if this was in reference to the righteous being raptured. Jesus’ response to the disciples question of “Where Lord?” that is, where are they going to be [taken]?” gives us yet another clue as to who these are that are being taken and also where they are being taken. Again, Jesus response was “where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather”, which points us to another event that will take place at the end of the age as the Lord returns to set up his millennial kindom, which is found in Revelation 19:17-18; 21:

    “And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and people. free and slave, small and great.”

    “The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.”

    As we have seen, those who are taken are the wicked and in regards to The Lord’s response, they are taken to where these birds (vultures) are that will be gathered together by the angel at the end of the age where they gorge themselves on their flesh.

    So, now that we have looked at some of the major verses supporting this position, let’s look at the entire scenario:

    Leading up to the end of the age, i.e. the return of the Lord to set up His millennial kingdom, the world will have suffered through the Day of the Lord, that is, the wrath of God which will be poured out in the form of seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments found in the book of Revelation and also found in various old testement books. The population of the world toward the end of the age will have been so decimated that the saying of Jesus will be fulfilled when he said:

    “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

    At the time when he actually begins to descend from heaven (Rev. 19:11-21), he sends out his angels and they first collect the weeds [One’s taken] and they are brought by the angels to the valley of Megiddo where the kings and the armies of the world have been gathered together by three demonic spirits (Rev.16:13-14) for the battle of Har-Megeddon. The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown into the lake of fire alive (Rev. 19:19-20) and then the double-edged sword procedes from the mouth of the rider on the horse (Jesus), which represents the word of God and all of those kings, the mighty men, their horses, the riders and all those wicked who will have been brought there by the angel’s (one’s taken) all fall dead from the word that procedes from his mouth and the birds that were previously called together there by the angel, will gorge theselves on all their flesh, including their horses.

    Those who were left on the earth are the ones left, also referred to as the wheat, who will still in their mortal bodies, and are those great tribulation saints (not the church), who will have taken their stand for Christ and the word of God, who will not have worshiped the beast or his image nor received his mark. These are those people, along with the woman of Revelation 12 (Israel) who will have been cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years and who together will go into the millennial period and repopulate the earth. Subsequently, after the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire and the armies and all those people are killed, satan is then bound and cast into the Abyss during that thousand years so that he cannot deceive the nation’s during the time of Christs reign. Unfortunately, at the end of the thousand years he is let out and many people, as numerous as the sand on the seashore, will be deceived and follow him once again and rebel against God, only to be wiped out in the same manner of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    I hope that this sheds some light on this subject. I get tired of hearing pastors, preachers and teachers telling us that this is the rapture.

  9. The truth of this text is that it is about when the son of man is revealed, and it also mixes in the invasion of Israel which takes place at the 31/2 year mark of daniel’s final 7 years. That is an invasion which causes fleeing, to whit, people need to not go down from their housetop and get their belongings but instead flee from israel.

    Which I have proved is the beginning of the day of the Lord, a fleeing from an invasion during a false peace starts the day of the Lord throughout the bible.

    One has to look at all three versions of the same text, which all have the same message: the Lord will take out the Christians at the rapture when the Lord APPEARS in the air, our blessed hope, his glorious APPEARING..and when does he APPEAR?
    At Armageddon

    the reference to the vultures gathering could be eagles, as one version of the Bible says, which makes more sense..we the eagles shall rise up to meet the Lord in the air. SO whats the dead body? All throughout the bible, in Isaiah, in other places, the Lord will APPEAR, and he will whistle for the saints to come meet him in the air:the rapture

    THE DEAD BODYCould be the body of Christ which has died to self.

    OR MORE LIKELY it probably is the bodies of the armies of Armageddon..which all the bible says: we shall meet the Lord in the air over Armageddon…..

    The rapture takes place at Armageddon, as revelation 16 says..

    15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

    so the Lord coming like a thief in the night is Armageddon….

    also the context here is the lightning :
    Luke 17:
    24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

    34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

    37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

    He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

    COMPARED WITH MATHEW 24 the same event. It places the dead carcass text at his coming like lightning:

    27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

    “‘the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

    30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

    32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

    The Day and Hour Unknown

    39…That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
    42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

    the context in the PARALELL verse says plainly that it is the coming of the Lorfd and is the rapture.. you are not knowing when your lord will come directly applies to the text in question here.

    Honestly, LUKE 17 is a little mixed up… it has in it the fleeing and getting your belongings in with texts about the coming of the Lord…so it is up to us to put all the pieces together,

    and in this case, the whole bible says that one will be taken and the other left at the rapture, for it is there that you do not know when you lOrd comes is plainly sated in MAtthew 24….

  10. Thank you for sharing. Have highlighted this sometime back with questions and you have put it all together in an easy read!

  11. These verses being quoted is about the Judgment taking place of all the people remeining alive at HIS Second Coming. They will be judged whether they will be taken into the Millenial Kingdom of our LORD YAHSHUA.

  12. The secret place of the most high is keeping God Feast Days and Sabbath Days. Paul tells us in Col.2:16-17 that their a SHALLOW of things to come. Pslam 91:1 secret place and the shallow of the Almighty go together.

  13. Hi Melvin,

    In Colossians 2:16-17 that you sited, Paul is saying that we are no longer under the law which restricts a person from eating certain foods, or observing festivals, like new moons or any Sabbath days, for those things were a shadow of what was to come, Jesus Christ. The law was nailed to the cross and Jesus was the end of the law. For as it is written, “No one will be justified by observing the law.” This is why the verse that you listed says, “Therefore, don’t let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, new moon or a Sabbath.” Because we are free from the law in Jesus Christ. We do not follow the written code of the Law of Moses. Just as a wife is free of her commitment to her husband once he dies, so are we who are in Christ released, because our old husband (The law) is dead and therefore, we are free from that marriage. The word of God says that the law only brings wrath and no one will be justified by observing it.

    Our salvation and hope is purely through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ and his resurrection, who lived a perfect, sinless life on our behalf and then paid the penalty for our sins. He also met all of the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and then nailed them to the cross. All of this information regarding the law vs grace through Christ can be found in the letters to the Galatians and Romans. For if we are saved by works, then grace is no longer a free gift and salvation is no longer by a promise, but by works.

  14. Know your God, and do exploits

  15. If the ressurection of Our Lord took 3 days after eve of pesach (passover) on 17th of the hebrew month of Nissan, on what date could possibly rapture occur? If crucifixion and ressurection of The Lord was an event fulfilling passover in spirit, what would be a mirror event in latter days fulfilled upon beleivers in Him…

    “Moses announced that the Passover sacrifice (Korban Pesach, or Passover lamb) may only be eaten by people who are ritually pure. Men came to Moses, complaining that as people who came into contact with the dead, were on that basis ritually unclean, and were unable to fulfill the mitzvah of Passover. Moses consulted God who responded by announcing that anyone who was unable to sacrifice the paschal lamb on the 14th of Nisan, either due to defilement or inability to journey to the place of sacrifice in time, was under the duty to perform the sacrifice on the 14th of Iyar, a full month later, and only then eat the paschal lamb along with matzah and maror.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesach_Sheni

    Christ was sinless, hence, ritually pure, and could fulfil passover on original date beginning on 14th Nissan, His followers being in sinful flesh, hence, ritually impure, could only fulfil it on second passover (pesach sheni), month after ressurection on 17th of Iyar; This year 17th of Iyar falls on 21st May!

    http://www.youtube.com/watchv=s4n3uZtn3lc&playnext=1&list=PL5DEB9ACEAA9E12B1

  16. Scripture does not support a pre-trib rapture! Study the scriptures and ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you by His Holy Spirit, who guides us into ALL truth!

    • Hi Tyrone,

      Actually, after studying all of the Scriptures, the resurrection and catching away prior to the return of Christ is the best interpretation. For if you or anyone else wants to try to make this event take place after Christ returns to the earth, you have one big problem and that is, the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments, which are identified as the wrath of God. Since the Church is not appointed to suffer the wrath of God, we cannot be here for it. Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour out his wrath upon it. Understand that there is a difference between trial and tribulation by men and the powers of darkness oppossed to the wrath of God. The problem stems from people automatically associating the resurrection and catching away with Christ’s return to the earth at the end of the age, when they are two separate events. Regarding the resurrection and catching away, Jesus descends from heaven to meet his church in the air and take them back to the Father’s house. Where at the end of the age, Jesus physically returns to the earth to end human government and establish his own.

      When you consider the timing of this event in relation to that last seven years, you must also consider where God’s wrath begins and wherever it begins, the church must be gone prior to that. We cannot be here seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is by the study of his word and the guiding of the Holy Spirit that we arrive at this. Jesus says:

      “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10)

      Being kept “From” the hour of trial means that we will not even enter into that time period.

      • Don,
        I believe your explanation is full of false assumptions and wishful thinking.
        You assume we are spared from the tribulation by being whisked away to heaven but nowhere in the bible does it say that. And the timing is also an assumption. The only thing we know for sure is that at the last (7th) trump the Lord returns on a white horse and the whole world will see Him. Then the dead will rise first and the living will be changed and will meet Christ in the clouds (not heaven, but the “heavens” of the earth). He returns with His angels (led by Michael) to fight the battle of Armageddon. This much nobody disputes.
        But where does it mention the billions of saints that were raptured earlier? And who are the new rapturees? Only non-believers are left, right? There is no reason to believe that all of the references used to show an early rapture do not in fact refer to the final trump/return of Jesus.
        This assumption comes from the belief that “protection” from tribulation means extraction. God has always tested His people and there is no reason to believe that the Book of Revelation is any different. You assume that the church will not suffer the “wrath of God.” But if the church is polluted, apostate and filled with abominations (paganized) you better believe that it will suffer a wrath of cleansing and correction. Christians will be tested with the mark of the beast and those with the mark will suffer the 7 last plagues.

        Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

        Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

        Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

        Here we see that those with the mark will suffer but those who keep the commandments will not. And verse 13 is the key – There will be believers who die during the tribulation – but they will be blessed – death will be their reward!
        This may be the most important verse in Revelation! We are not to fear the tribulation – so what if we die? In the twinkling of an eye we will wake up in the presence of the Lord. In fact we will beat the living to the punch since the dead will rise first.

        And as for the verse:
        “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10)
        The “hour” mentioned here is the 10 day period from the time of the 7th trump until Christ takes His throne on the Day of Atonement. This will include the battle of Armageddon, which nobody wants to be a part of, so we will be removed before that happens – at the very end of the tribulation.

        Another note about the seals and trumps – they are not all necessarily acts of God. The horsemen of the apocalypse (False teachers, war, famine and diseases) are all the works of man. Others are forces of nature. Quite possibly the only “wrath” here will be the 7 last plagues, which separate the “wheat from the tares” so to speak.
        If the church will be raptured, then the Book of Revelation was written for non-Christians, since we will all be gone. Why did God waste His precious time on it then? What is it’s true purpose? To let those who are “left behind” know what to expect? Who cares? If the beast is Islam, why isn’t this in the Koran rather than our bible? When was the last time God addressed another religion in His word? Never! His words were for His people. And so are these.

        The whole “rapture” theory was concocted only 150 years ago. I believe it was part of the first horse (false prophets) coming to confuse the saints in the end time. Between it and the “commandments were nailed to the cross” teachings, many Christians will be lulled into a false sense of security. They will fail to recognize the beast, the False Prophet and the mark of the beast. They will be waiting for a New World Order, an Antichrist and a 7-year tribulation period and rapture that will never happen.

        Hopefully, these believers will eventually realize that the tribulation has begun and will have to give up on the idea of being whisked away to heaven, and go back to the Word and read it more carefully and come to the true understanding they will need to make it thru the tribulation.

        Maybe that understanding will come from this very blog site – unless we lose Marianne to the rapture of course.🙂

        Bless…

      • Hi James,

        How’s it going? The information that I post, as I have stated many times, comes only from what I have studied and so you or anyone else who reads them are free to agree or disagree. With that, I will respond to each of the subjects that you posted:

        James said: I believe your explanation is full of false assumptions and wishful thinking. You assume we are spared from the tribulation by being whisked away to heaven but nowhere in the bible does it say that.

        Rebutle: By the using the words “Whisked away” I take it that you are referring to being caught up. In regards to this event the word of God does say exactly that as illustrated in the following verse:

        “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught-up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” (1 Thes.416-17)

        So, here we have the verse that states that those who have died in Christ will be resurrected and immediately following that, those who are still alive at the time that the resurrection takes place, will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. I included
        1 Cor.15:51 in there as well since it is speaking about the same event. Now, I believe that we can agree according to what was just stated, that at some point this event is going to take place, correct? That is, unless you don’t regard any of what Paul has written as inspired by the Holy Spirit. If that is the case, then there is nothing I can do about that, since I believe exactly what is written about Paul and that is that he received his information by revelation and visions from the Lord.

        Now, the question regarding this event is, when is it going to take place in relation to the end of the age when Christ returns to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom? Herein lies the controversy.

        The way in which we arrive at our conclusion is by comparing Scriptures and by Scriptural deduction. As an example of what I am talking about, many look to the resurrection of Rev.20:4 of those who are beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and who would not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark in their hands or forehead and they make that resurrection synonymous with the one listed in
        1 Thes.4:16-17. So, for those making this claim, problems arise.

        The first one is that, these people in the 20:4 resurrection will have all died for the reasons listed above and their is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. This only describes a resurrection of the great tribulation saints, those who keep their testimony for Christ and resist the beast.

        The second problem is that, this resurrection of Rev.20:4 takes place at the end of the age when Christ returns to the earth to bring and end to human government and set up his millennial kingdom. The problem with this is that, prior to Christ’s return, the wrath of God will have been meted out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which would mean that, if the resurrection of Rev.20:4 includes the church, then the church will have had to have gone through the entire wrath of God. And the problem with this is that, Paul makes it clear that we as believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer this time of wrath and therefore we cannot go through that time period. Jesus also said regarding this time of wrath that, “Since you have kept my commnad to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10) As I have stated in past posts, Jesus says that he will keep us “From” the hour of trial, not “through” it and not “In” it, but “From” it, which means that we will not even be exposed to it.

        Now, Paul outlined the entire event of the resurrection and catching away, followed by the wrath of God as described in
        1 Thes.4:13-18 and 5:1-11. The order is, first the resurrection and catching away, then the wrath of God. So here in his outline, believers are taken off the earth before the wrath starts. Regarding believers Paul says, “While people are saying ‘peace and safety,’ destuction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day whould surprise you like a thief.

        Now first off, Paul says in the verse, “They shall not escape,” which is then immediately followed by, “But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should take you by surpise” By saying saying “But you brothers” this immediately infers the opposite of those who will not escape, that is, they shall not escapoe, but you brothers will. And the way that they escape is in regards to what Paul had just outlined, that being those who are still alive will be changed and caught up.

        You would also have to ask the question that if both groups remain on the earth, those in darkness and believers in Christ, what is meant by “But you are not in darkness that this day should take you by surprise.” Would those in darkness say, “Gee, I didn’t see that coming, Whereas those in Christ say, “I knew that was going to happen.” I’m being silly of course. I believe that what is meant when he says, “But you are not in darkness that this day should take you by surpise,” is that, unlike those who are in darkness, those who are believers will be spiritually ready and will be caught up to meet the Lord and that is what is meant by that day not taking them by surprise.

        James said: Then the dead will rise first and the living will be changed and will meet Christ in the clouds (not heaven, but the “heavens” of the earth). He returns with His angels (led by Michael) to fight the battle of Armageddon. This much nobody disputes.”

        Rebutle: I dispute this and these are the reasons why. Though it is true that the angels do return to the earth, they do so to collect the weeds (ones taken}. However, those armies of heaven who are said to be on white horses dressed with fine linen, white and clean is the church. The reason I know this is because, previously as mentioned in chpater 19:7-8, the bride, which is another designation for the church, was said to be given fine linen, bright and clean to wear, which is exactly what those armies following Christ in 20:14 are said to be wearing. The church is that army following behind him on white horses dressed in fine linen, white and clean and not angels. Furthermore, Michael is nowhere mentioned anywhere in chapter 19 or 20. Although, I do personally believe that the angel that seizes the Satan and binds him in the Abyss for that thousand years is most likely Michael, but that is my personal belief.

        Another reason that I know that the church is that army following behind him is because of the following verse found in chapter 17:14
        regarding the beast and the ten kings:

        “They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will over-come them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings–and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

        So this verse here coincides with those armies as being his faithful followers who, as I said, are identified as his bride, the church.

        Another point to mention is that you said that: “He returns with His angels (led by Michael) to fight the battle of Armageddon.”

        According to chapter 19:19-21, there is no fight, because it is said that the beast and the kings and their armies are gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army, but the beast and the false prophet are taken and thrown alive into the lake of fire and the rest of those kings, their armies and everyone gathered there are killed instantly by the double-edged sword that comes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, which is the spoken word of God and the birds eat their flesh.

        So you see, there is no battle between angels and the beast, the kings of the earth and their armies. Jesus just speaks and they all fall dead. Not much of a battle there James. They were all just gathered there in that same place in order to be slaughtered by the Lord.

        James said: But where does it mention the billions of saints that were raptured earlier? And who are the new rapturees? Only non-believers are left, right?”

        Rebutle: As I said earlier, the new rapturees as you put it of 20:4 are the great tribulation saints who died keeping their testimony of Christ and who would not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark in their forehead or hand. Jesus return marks the end of the age and the following are those who will be left here when he returns:

        The Woman (Israel) who will have been cared for out in the wilderness for that last
        3 1/2 years out of the reach of Satan.

        The great tribulation saints (The Wheat) who will have managed to stay alive until his return.

        And those who worshiped the beast, his image and who received his mark, some of these will also have made it through and will have not been killed by any of the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments, these are the weeds. These are those “One taken” that the angels collect and bring back to Armageddon to be killed by the double-edged sword.

        James said: This assumption comes from the belief that “protection” from tribulation means extraction. God has always tested His people and there is no reason to believe that the Book of Revelation is any different. You assume that the church will not suffer the “wrath of God.” But if the church is polluted, apostate and filled with abominations (paganized) you better believe that it will suffer a wrath of cleansing and correction.”

        Rebutle: Your statement here suggests that the entire church is apostate or polluted, which is rediculous, because then the promise of the resurrection and catching away would be in vain, as well as his words of comfort at the end which says, “Therefore encourage each other with these words.” And his promise that he would keep the church from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole the earth would also be in vain, because according to you, the entire church would be doing the opposite, that is, going through the time of God’s wrath. I would also say, so much for what Christ said about building his church and the gates of Hades not prevailing against it!

        James said: Christians will be tested with the mark of the beast and those with the mark will suffer the 7 last plagues.”

        Rebutle: James, if the church was even on the earth during this time period and they received the mark of the beast, then they would not be considered as even belonging to the church, because the mark would end any relationship between the believer and God. You are are correct in that if they received the mark that they would suffer the 7 last plagues, but that would be the least of their problems, because that is not all that they would suffer. Once a person receives the mark, there is no option for repentance, as chapter 14:9-11 makes it perfectly clear that, whoever worships the beast and his image and recieves his mark on the forehead or on the hand, the God’s wrath will be poured out upon them full strength, that is, no mercy mixed in and the smoke of their torment would rise up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night. So according to Scripture, there is no hope for anyone who worships the beast or receives his mark.

        James said: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

        Rebutle: As I said, those in the verse above are not the church or the great tribulation saints, but are those inhabitants of the earth whose names where not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world and who will be atonished when they see the beast because he once was, now is not and yet will come (Rev.13:8,17:8). These are who receive the mark are unbelivers, the wicked, those who continually have rejected Christ. They have no part with God.

        James said: Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

        Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

        Rebutle: This group here are the great tribulation saints, those who later take part in the resurrection of 20:4. The works that will follow them is their keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, resisting the beast, his image and not receiving his mark.

        James said: And as for the verse:
        “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10)
        The “hour” mentioned here is the 10 day period from the time of the 7th trump until Christ takes His throne on the Day of Atonement. This will include the battle of Armageddon, which nobody wants to be a part of, so we will be removed before that happens – at the very end of the tribulation.”

        Rebutle: There is no Scripture whatsoever to support your claim regarding this, but the “Hour of trial” is another designation for The Day of the Lord and the wrath of God, which is why he is keeping us from it.

        James said: “Another note about the seals and trumps – they are not all necessarily acts of God. The horsemen of the apocalypse (False teachers, war, famine and diseases) are all the works of man. Others are forces of nature. Quite possibly the only “wrath” here will be the 7 last plagues, which separate the “wheat from the tares” so to speak.”

        Rebutle: The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are must certainly the wrath of God. For it is stated in each set of judgments that these are the wrath of God (Seals-6:17, Trupets-11:18, Bowls-15:1).

        The other proof that the seals and trumpets are also considered as the wrath of God is found in the discription of the bowl judgments as follows:

        “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.” (Rev.15:1)

        If the seven bowl judgments are the [last] judgments, which complete God’s wrath, then the word “Last” would infer that there was wrath before the bowls. If they as a unit are “Last,” then something had to come before them, which would be the seals and trumpet judgments. The other point regarding the word “Last” is that it would denote chronology, that is, first the seals, followed by the trumpets and then bowls complete it.

        You also said, “Another note about the seals and trumps – they are not all necessarily acts of God”

        These in fact are all the acts of God, because guess who the one is who is opening the seals? The Lamb, Jesus Christ. He is the one initiating each of the seals, which leads into the trumpets, which leads into the bowls. These are all initiated by the Lamb, whether he is using natural means or supernatural means, he is the one who opens the seven sealed scroll and therefore, he is the one responsible for what is happening upon the earth and its inhabitants.

        James said: “If the church will be raptured, then the Book of Revelation was written for non-Christians, since we will all be gone. Why did God waste His precious time on it then? What is it’s true purpose? To let those who are “left behind” know what to expect? Who cares?”

        Rebutle: James, James, The letters to the seven churches were for examples showing the Lord’s commendations and his rebukes within the churches and are for our examples. I believe that those who will be here during that last seven years will be those who were those five foolish virgins who took no oil with them and when the bridegroom comes, they will be unprepared to go in and the doors will be shut. When they realize that they have missed it, they will know what lies ahead and what they will have to go through. These will be those who become the great tribulation saints. So, the book will bennifit them during that time and it also bennifts people today, because we are telling people about what is going to happen.

        James said: “If the beast is Islam, why isn’t this in the Koran rather than our bible?

        Rebutle: First and foremost, the beast is not Islam, he is an actual person and he has a demonic counter-part that comes up out of the Abyss. The fact that he and the false prophet are both thown alive into the lake of fire (19:20)shows that he is a literal person and not a religious sect.

        James said: “The whole “rapture” theory was concocted only 150 years ago”

        Rebutle: Whatever people believed 150 years, is not why I arrived at this believe, but my interpretation comes from putting all of the available Scriptures together in order to see the big picture. This is the same kind of thinking that when I tell people that it is God who foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified those whom he chose from before the world began. Then they call me a Calvanist, which is incorrect because I have never read anything by Calvin nor do I folllow him. I derived this information on via my own studies. I can’t help it if he came to the same conclusion.

        James said: “Between it and the “commandments were nailed to the cross” teachings, many Christians will be lulled into a false sense of security. They will fail to recognize the beast, the False Prophet and the mark of the beast. They will be waiting for a New World Order, an Antichrist and a 7-year tribulation period and rapture that will never happen”

        Rebutle: This is just plain rediculous James. Just for the sake of the argument, lets say that we are wrong about the law being nailed to the cross and that we are in fact still to be observing it for our salvation. How would our interpretation affect our judgment to not recognize the beast, the false prophet and his mark. What happens to us, do we get amnesia? If we as believers were to go into that time period, as soon as the news came on and I saw a new political leader making a seven year peace contract with Israel and most likely Islam, I would say, well, looks like we were wrong about not being here during that last seven years. I would then go and pray for forgiveness and ask God to give me stength to go through what I no would coming up next and then I could follow it like a road map, step by step, because I’d now everything that was going happen from that point going forward.

        As I stated before, my faith is not based on when the resurrection and catching away takes place, but it is based on Jesus Christ crucified, buried and resurrected.

        James said: “Hopefully, these believers will eventually realize that the tribulation has begun and will have to give up on the idea of being whisked away to heaven, and go back to the Word and read it more carefully and come to the true understanding they will need to make it thru the tribulation.”

        Rebutle: Though there is and has been tribulation in the world, that last seven years has not yet begun. Consequently,none of the seals have been opened and since the judgments are chronological, neither have any of the trumpets or bowls been carried out. For regarding this time period Jesus said:

        “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never ot be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Mt.24:21-22)

        Due to God’s judgments of wrath, the population of the earth will have been so decimated that there will be very few people left in comparison to the now 6.5 billion people currently here. The state of mankind during the day of the Lord was also prophecied by Isaiah:

        “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Is.13:12)

        In the same way, I hope that all who think as you do, as you see the continued effort to phase out checks and cash and continue to watch the technology regarding subdermal computer chips, that you will realize that the mark is a literal mark and not symbolic for observing the Sabbath on Sunday. And yet, this chip under the skin is already in use for making purchases in some places, replacing debit cards.

        Ok, I’m tired of typing now. Until the next post.

        • Hey Don, here’s a question for you: Did the children of Israel suffer the wrath and judgments of God while they were in Egypt?

          Also Jesus Himself said that He would not be coming back until after the tribulation.

          Matthew 24:29-31

          “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

          I believe the words of Jesus wholeheartedly and will not be swayed concerning His Second Coming.

          May God bless and protect you,
          Tyrone

          • Hi Tyrone,

            Just to clarify, by the wrath and judgments, are you referring to the plagues that God did to the Egyptians through Moses and Aaron? If so, then the answer is no, the Israelites did not suffer from those plagues as they were directed at the pharoah and the Egyptians. The last plague was specifically against Egypt in that the first born of everyone was dead by the destroying angel, but because Israel put the blood on the top and sides of the door, they were [passed over].

            Yes, you are correct in saying that, “Jesus Himself said that He would not be coming back until after the tribulation.” In this verse Jesus is speaking about his physical, visual return to the earth to bring an end to human government and to establish his kingdom. The resurrection and catching away is a different event that has Jesus descending from heaven, resurrecting the dead and changing and catching up the living and taking us back to the Father’s house as a bridegroom coming for his bride, as shown in John 14:1-3.

            The problem that has arisen is that, people immediately associate the resurrection and catching away of the church with Jesus return to the earth at the end of the age. They are then forced to fit Paul’s description of the resurrection and catching away in 1 Thes.4:16 as taking place at Christ’s return to the earth. They then proclaim that Paul’s description of the resurrection and catching away is synonymous with Rev.20:4, which is incorect because that resurrection, which is one phase of the first resurrection, is only a resurrection and there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up. Those who are being resurrected at the time that Jesus returns to the earth are those great tribulation saints that will have died keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have resisted the beast, his image and his mark. This group is not the church, but those who will have diedd during the great tribulation period.

            Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour his wrath out upon it. It is important to understand that there is a difference between the wrath of God opposed pursecution and tribulation by men and the powers of darkness. God will be pouring his wrath out upon those who were unrepentant prior to the resurrection and catching away, but it also has another purpose and that is to get people to repent by reason of the plagues that are being poured out. It God is in affect yelling louder by means of plagues to get peoples attention for repentance. At one point in chapter 14 of revelation he even sends angels to make announcements as a warning.

            At the end of Paul’s description of the resurrection and catching away, he says regarding this hope, “Therefore, comfort one another with these words.” If the church was going have the wrath of God poured out on them, there would be no comfort. Individual believers have already repented and so there is no need to pour our wrath to get us to do something that we have already done, which is to be agreement that we are sinners and to confess Jesus Christ as Lord. This is why after describing the last day events, Jesus said:

            “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighted down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and [that day] will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the [whole earth]. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to [escape] all that is about to happen, and that you mayu be able to stand before the Son of man.” (Lk.21:34-36)

            Escape? How could we escape if these things are going to affect all those who live on the face of the “Whole earth?” The answer is in what Paul wrote in 1 Thes.4:16. The Lord will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are still alive will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and the entire church, dead and alive will meet the in Lord in the air in their now resurrected bodies. Although, in the case of the living, they are changed on the spot because they will still be alive at the time that this resurrection takes place.

            I hope that this sheds some light on this subject.

            Yours in Christ

            • Don, you err in your interpretation of Thessalonians, other scriptures, and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to study out this message.
              http://endtimepilgrim.org/rapture.htm

              God bless,
              Tyrone

              • Hi Tyrone,

                With all due respect, I have studied this verse and the rest of God’s word for 38 years. I don’t believe that I can get anything more out of this particular part than the fact that, in the verse, Jesus is talking about the end times, which is Lukes version of Mt.24. Regarding the plagues, that is, the wrath of God, which are going to take place on the earth just before Christ’s return, he says:

                “pray that you may be able to [escape] all that is about to happen”

                Now, since he also says that it will come upon the “Whole world” how would one escape? The mark of the beast will be in place, so a believer would not be able to have a bank account because the mark, just like the debit card, will be the key that will allow retailers to debit and credit a persons bank account, ergo, without it no one would be able to buy and sell. And therefore, no believer would be able to be apart of the world financial system, which means that a believer would not be able to pay his mortgage, buy gas for his vehicle, not be able make payments for his vehicle, not be able to buy food, etc, etc. Furthermore, because a believer will not receive his mark, he will be an enemy of the beast and the world in general. Not to mention that the wrath of God will also be overlapping this time of the beast, a wrath that we as believers are not appointed to suffer according to 1 Thes.5:9. The word of God makes it clear from Old testament to new, that God is going to decimate the population of the earth, so much so, that it is written that, if those days had not been cut short, then no one would survive, that is, not a person would be left on the earth.

                All that being said, where do you think that the church could escape to while on the earth? The truth is that, Jesus is not speaking of escape by remaining upon the earth, but of being caught up at the time that this part of the first resurrection takes place.
                In regards to the address you provided, I do not get my understanding from the teaching men, via videos or from books, on the contrary, my study is based in the word of God and only the word of God. If I read a book or watch a video it is only to see if what they are saying is in keeping with what God’s word says. We must stay based in the word of God, because in these last days there are many false teachers as was prophecied. These teachers can and do lead people astray and therefore, we must be emersed in the word of God and pray, because the days are evil and Satan and his minions are hard at word to get us off the truth of God’s word.

                As I said before, Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour his wrath out upon it!

                Yours in Christ

  17. I just love truth……….We wait on you oh God…..

  18. Not one of us are perfect. We all know that, and it appears most if not all here pray to G-d the Father in Christ’s name.

    I agree our souls are safe with G-d as we pray to him/it. However, those Christians in Iraq who were murdered prayed to G-d the Father in Christ’s name too. Why were they not protected as some write here they are protected?

    It is written some Christians are slated for death, and some to be myartered(sp).

    I can not write for anyone elce, so I will just use myself as an example. A sinner who deserves hell, yet hopes G-d sees me through Christ’s blood. Not my will, but G-d’s will be done. That is me, and has been me for a long long time now.

    So, why do I grow stronger with age? Because, I work out, or because G-d wants me strong for some unknown reason to me? Romantic thought?

    I think not. Some of us G-d will use one way, and some of us G-d will use in another way. In my heart G-d has pushed me to get ready to defeat, or protect against the evil growing in this world. Maybe, I am wrong, and I continue to pray about it. So far, this is the course I am to be on.

    It is not for anyone here to write you should not do that, or you must do this. We all must follow what G-d has placed in our hearts to do.

    I am scared, but second place is first loser.

    My Christ come soon.

  19. Hebrews chapters 11 and 12 give a good perspective of ‘tribulation’ ..of ‘protection’…of ‘overcoming’..of ‘saints.’ God, in HIs Word, never showed the physical world..the here and now…as anything other than ‘death.’ And …for the true saint…moving from ‘death to life’ is the most natural thing in the world. Whether the ‘deliverance’ is in the spiritual sense or whether it is the physical sense…through moving from death to life through martyrdom….it is fully DELIVERANCE, VICTORY, OVERCOMING, PROTECTION, and…well..you get it. lol. In that context Paul said ‘whether I live or whether I die…I am the Lords.’ God’s greatest and most glorious ‘deliverances’ have been through removing the saint from this ‘death’ to Life with Him. In Hebrews 12 He even justified their ‘deaths’ (life) as ‘those of whom the world was not worthy.’ BEAUTIFUL. Chill. ‘Death’ is a good thing since we do INDEED pass from death to Life…both spirutually and physically.

  20. Also, concerning ‘where the carase is..the eagles will be gathered together’…I see the ‘carcase’ as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.’ The ‘eagles’ are the children of God who naturally migrate upward to meet him in the clouds. at His Second Coming…as naturally as the eagle moves to its prey…we will be given power which (‘woman given two wings of a great eagle Rev.12:14) supersedes all natural laws such as gravity. God always uses the ‘natural’ to reveal the ‘spiritual.’ The greater majority of scriptures in both old and new testments concerning ‘eagle’ refers to the ‘swiftness’ (as ‘in a moment in the twinkling of an eye)…and to her ability to rise to high places (as in ‘And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, tht she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent Rev 12:14.’ As we know from Israel’s ‘wilderness’ experience…WILDERNESS is clearly the invisible place of divine protection. John the Baptist (Elias) cried in the WILDERNESS “Prepare ye the way of the Lord’…as the forerunner of Christ..he was unstoppable under God’s ‘wilderness’ protection. But part of the plan was he would be beheaded….still while under God’s protection…John would ‘decrease’ and Christ would ‘increase.’ ‘They’ meant it for evil but God meant it for God. Elias/John the Baptist is alive and well…and Elias has one more trip and mission here on earth as the forerunner of the Second Coming of Christ…seen in Revelations 11:3-13. Also..concerning the ‘wheat and tares’…and ‘one taken and the other left’….both happen at the time of ‘reaping’. Every gardener knows that when you pull up the peanut vine…the look-a-likes are there and come out of the ground with the peanut vine. Too, every gardener knows you better not dare pull out a big week snuggled again the root of the pea vine..’cuz’ the pea vine will leave the soil along with the pesky ‘tare.’ In God’s harvest, the wheat and tares are uprooted together…at his Return. Matthew 24 is the clearest picture of the ‘gathering’ of the wheat…but the Sixth seal is another glimpse of the ‘sealing’ of the saints at His REturn…as the ‘angels’ are holding back the winds of destruction which will be unleased onto the wicked earth. The mentioning of ‘first bundle the tares’ is just another use of ‘natural to reveal spiritual truths. Every gardener harvests the plants….then first clears the pesky weeds from the gorund so they don’t again take root…and then they are csst into the fire to they do not again pollinate. An uprooted weed is NOT a dead weed. Burning is the solution. I don’t know the exact timeline concerning the thousand year reign for the ‘marriage supper of the Lamb’ …so to speak. But I do know that is is after the harvest…after all rule has come under submission to God…by way of His return. Satan is ‘bound’ for the thousand years simply because his run is OVER. What ever ‘wrath’ is taking place against the wicked on the earth as the saints are above’with Christ for the thousand years…it is nothing to what the eternal destruction will be. Satan is losed after the thousand years and comes out like a mad dog and he and his demons just do what comes naturally…and seek to DESTROY..but fire comes down from God and destroys them..as they have the evil audacity to encircle the ‘camp of the saints.’ LOL. Such is the mind of the opposite of ‘wisdom.’ LOL.

  21. I,too, like Tyrone Palmer, believe that the scriptures DO NOT support a “pre-trib” rapture event. When looking at Mark 13: 24-27, one should be able to see clearly that there is no pre-trib event:

    (24) “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light”. (26)And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory”. (27) And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH, to the uttermost part of heaven”.

    It is very clear that the “elect/chosen” ones of Yahshua, will be here on this earth…being “lights” and assisting in the “Harvest Field”–witnessing to those that are being tormented by the “anti-christ” system to turned them back to the love of Yahshua our Lord and Savior! Go back to verse 20 in Mark 13, and it is further proof that it is because of the “elect:” sake, that the Lord DOES NOT destroy the earth: (20): “And except that the Lord had shortened those days, NO FLESH SHOULD BE SAVED: but for the elect’s sake, whom He has chosen, He hath shortened the days”.

    We who are following Yahshua, whereever He desires for us to go—those who have denied ourselves and taken up our crosses and are following Yahshua (Luke 9: 23), these–(we) shall be here during the tribulation, to help gather in the “Harvest”; We are the ones that the Lord have chosen to be the “laborers” that are in short supply right now; That is why the Lord stated in Luke 10:2: “…the Laborers are FEW: pray you therefore the Lord fo the “harvest”, that He would send fort laborers into the harvest”.Not many are desiring to stay here: MOST would prefer to run or leave and escape.

    One further point to be made here about a “pre-trib” rapture event; In John 17, that final prayer that Yahshua prayed to the Father before He was to be crucified, He did not pray that His chosen/elect should be “taken” or “raptured”off this earth. I believe, if He knew what was to come(and He did) about His coming back (at some point in the future) to raputure His chosen ones, He most certainly would have made mention of this “special”, secretive event (as pre-trib believers proclaim) during this prayer to our Father/God. John 17:15: “I pray not that thou should take them out of the world, but that thou should keep them from the evil”.

    This is a futher confirmation that there will be no pre-trib event. Some of us that truly want to be useful during these endtimes, deem it an honor to be elected to be here, in faith and with a true sense of purpose(and by the powerful anointing provided by our Lord) to serve our Lord and Savior during such trying times to assist those that will be and are now being deceived by this satanic, NWO, evil system to turn them back to the Kingdom of God. Some –through this rapture event–want to escape, but a few are willing to be used;

    Matthew 20:16: “So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many are called, but FEW chosen”.

    Your brother in Christ,

    Sandy Champion

    • hi Sandy

      Good point…that many want to escape, but not to be used.

      • Hi Sandy,

        Here is the verse that you quoted, Mk.13:24-26

        “But in those day, following that distress,

        ‘The sun will be darkened, and the mon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

        I am assuming that you are taking that the verse above is speaking about the catching away, that is, the rapture, but this is not the case. In Paul’s outline of
        1 Thes.4:16, the Lord himself descends from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the acrhangel and the trumpet call of God and He himself meets up in the air and takes us back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3). In the verse above, it has the angels gathering his elect, that is, those who belong to him who make it through to the end of that last seven years alive, the wheat. These are those great tribulation saints who make it through to the end when Christ returns and will go into the millennial period along with the woman of Rev.12 (Israel) and they will repopulate the earth during that thousand years. The church is not in view here as they will have already have been resurrected and caught up prior to that time. It is important to understand that there are different groups within God’s word, the old testament saints, the church, the 144,000 (Believing Israel) and the great tribulation saints. These who are being gathered by the angels are those who survive that last seven years until Christ physically returns to the earth to establish his kingdom.

        • Dear dmcal52: I was using the scripture in Mark 13: 24-26 to support why I believe that the Lord will be coming to gather His chosen ones from the earth AFTER the great tribulation period. Then it shows that after the tribulation happens, the Lord sends His angels to gather his chosen and elect from off the earth and from heaven right into the Millenium kingdom reign; In otherwords, I am stating that the position of a “pre-trib” rapture is not what the Bible supports nor what Yahshua ever taught.

          Please note in verse 24 of Mark 13, what the Lord states: “But in those days, AFTER that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light”.

          As to what you have stated about the church not being on earth at the time of Mark 13, there no other “special” taking away/rapture event before this; the Lord does not ever state that there are more that one event that one can apply to this scripture to mean that the “church” is taken away prior to the “great tribulation”, imho.

          Much more can be discussed about this time-frame and the various peoples, nations and tongues of those that will be here on earth during the tribulation period. Once again, it is my view that the Lord has already chosen those that will be faithful to Him that can be counted on to be His “witnesses” during the tribualtion period(This, to me is the true church—the “ecclesia”–the called out ones); after that, that is when He sends His angels to gather His people from the earth to join with the saints from heaven—and then we enter into the millenium reign period with Yahshua at that time.

          Your brother in Christ,

          Sandy Champion

          • I think there are issues of definition here to consider.

            pre trib can be defined as
            1. before 7 years or
            2. before wrath, but after 3 1/2 years tribulation

            # 2 above is also referred to as
            1. mid trib, if trib is = 7 years

            post trib can be defined as
            1. after 7 years
            2. after 3 1/2 years, but before wrath

            tribulation can be defined as
            1. all 7 seals, trumpets, vials
            2. 7 seals only

            Wrath can be defined as
            1. all 7 seals, trumpets, vials
            2. 7 trumpets, 7 vials.

            confusing isn’t it?

          • Hello again Sandy,

            Regarding what you had said:

            “As to what you have stated about the church not being on earth at the time of Mark 13, there no other “special” taking away/rapture event before this”

            As proof to the contrary, I offer the following:

            Jesus – The first fruits of the first resurrection

            The church – As outlined in 1 Thes.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:51

            The Male Child/144,000 – Changed in a moment and caught up in the same manner as
            the living church

            The Two witnesses – Killed by the beast and are resurrected 3 1/2 days later,
            then they ascend up into heaven. (Rev.11:7-13)

            The Great Tribulation Saints – Resurrected after Christ’s return to the earth at the end of the age and rule with him in the millennium. (Rev.20:4)

            All of the above fall under the banner of the “First Resurrection”

            The Lost Dead – Those Resurrected out of Hades and do not belong to the first resurrection. The second death has power over them.
            (Rev.20:5-9,11-15)

            So, as you can see, there are a couple of different resurrections and two groups being snatched away, the church and the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000 out of Israel.

  22. Gregg, Richard, Al, James, Don;

    You guys have really been a Great witness to all of us on sharing your beliefs with each other, even though you might not agree. You don’t want to offend anyone and you even go the extra mile of apoligizing even when it’s not really necessary. All of you sound like long lost friends. We can all learn from this and I have noticed it and I want to bring it to everyone’s attention and give you credit for it. It’s really important. Thank you!!!!

    • Hello Kittii,

      Good to hear from you again. Yes, you are correct, it is not our intention to offend, but to contend for the truth of God’s word. If our purpose were to offend, that is, having an attitude of “I’m right and you’re wrong,” then we would be in the wrong spirit. God has given me a great zelousness to content for the truth of his word and that because there is so much deception and false teachings in these last days, for Satan is hard at work dividing. My only aim is to proclaim what the Scriptures say and to expound on them and that for the purpose of building up,strengthening and edifying anyone who might read them.

    • Hi Kittii,
      Thanks, but I’m just along for the ride at this point.🙂
      Good stuff huh?

  23. I forgot Leatherneck! Sorry. You got your own box. You’ve been doing good too. I wish I knew how to do those happy faces. Lyndsey told me but then my computer caught a virus and I lost the e-mail on how to do it.

  24. One more thing I want to share that I have noticed. Some of the names like Don’s, Carolyn’s and Tyone’s are highlighted on the posts. That means they have their own blog and you can click on it and visit their blog. Marianne has encouraged some of the bloggers here to start their own blog and she will even help you. I can’t write, so I don’t plan on doing that. On You Tube you can even have your own channel with videos you’ve connected. I’m not doing that either, but it is a suggestion. http://www.youtube.com/user/PreTribRaptureTruth

  25. Hey Don,

    Hope you are doing well today! I am going to respond to your objections over what I am saying.

    Act 13:38-39-This verse basically deals with justification. The Law of Moshe was never meant to justify us or make us righteous. If it could have, Yahshua would not have come. It was a shadow of the Perfect Lamb of God who would suffer and die for us. Doing what the blood of bulls and goats couldn’t do. Animal sacrifices were no longer necessary. Only by reading more into it than is there, is it implied that this does away with the commandments and instructions. The first 5 books, of what is disrespectfully referred to as the OLD Testament, were spoken directly to Moshe by YHWH. If man tries to do away with The Torah, no other scripture will stand. Yahshua embodies and is the WORD, which is the Torah. It is the foundation on what everything else is built. For 2000 years now the Church has tried to bury the Torah, but just can’t quite seem to get it done.

    Romans 3:19-20 & 4:13-15- The pivotal terms in these two passages are the terms “under the law” & “of Torah alone”. This deals with those who use the law to try and justify themselves before Yah. They reject justification through faith in Mashiyach. In the verses you listed above, the Torah (Law) makes one conscious (aware of sin). I know that is a pain, but don’t you think we could all use some of that? What the Church has basically done is told everyone that you can have your cake and eat it too. You are no longer responsible for your behavior. They don’t frame it exactly like that, but it leads to the same thing. The Torah is a fence around those who honor it. It sets their boundaries of behavior. Doesn’t justify but rather sanctifies us. For the church having the Messiah for 2000 years, as a body of people, is worse off than ever. Try and raise kids with no rules (laws) or instructions. Good luck on that one. We are now paying for the result of Dr. Spock’s theories on spare the rod and patting the little darlings on the head a little more. This is not an indictment against Torah, but rather against those who try and justify themselves by keeping Torah alone.

    Romans 10:4 You might think this is one of those”GOTCHA” moments. In Greek the word “end” is Telos in English. While the word end does mean “termination” the majority of the time, the lesser used meaning is that of “goal”. The verse would then be read as Mashiyach is the “goal” (instead of the termination) of the Torah. Between poor translations (whether knowingly or unknowingly) and, as James Giorodono also asserted a while back, that Paul didn’t always make himself as clear as he could have (which I agree with, but not as a criticism).

    Colossians 2:14 The words used for Torah (law) in Aramaic, in the New Testament, are aurayta and namusa. In Greek for Torah is one word, nomos. None of the words that mean Torah ever appear in either Greek or Aramaic in verse 14. The word that is used means debt and sin. That is what was nailed to the cross. Yahshua paid off our debt of sin that we couldn’t pay for ourselves. He didn’t nail His instructions and Torah to the cross.

    By dividing the Bible into two separate parts, we have lost the continuity that the Word was meant to give us. It is like trying to come to a conclusion without all the evidence. The whole book needs to agree with all it’s parts. It actually does, the vast majority just don’t realize it yet. And that is those on both sides of the fence. Restoration will come to His people, it is just better to be out in front of it than to be blindsided by it and have to play catchup later.

    I will finish the rest of the verses later. The pieces of this seeming puzzle have been put together for a long time. It just takes time and digging to find out what all of these things really mean. One other thing I would ask you. Yah gave His feasts (notice they are not Jewish or Hebrew feasts), which are all time sensitive. Yahshua fulfilled all the Spring Feasts (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Pentecost) to the very day and hour as rehearsed by Israel, every year, for 100’s of years. We have three Fall Feasts coming quickly which will be fulfilled to the day and the hour, just like they have been rehearsed for 1000’s of years. Do you honestly believe He just blew all of this off as if it doesn’t matter. That the Jews thwarted His plans. Don’t think so! This is why the Church is so confused on raptures, who we really are, what we are supposed to be doing, and so on. Remember when Yashshua went to the fig tree to pick a fig and there weren’t any, for the simple fact that it was not the time for the figs to be there. By cursing the fig tree we understood that it was talking about cursing the nation of Israel. But why curse a fig tree for lack of figs when it is not even the time for the figs to be there? This has everything to do with what we are talking about and the timing of it. Think about it.

    Be Blessed in HaMashiyach

    • Hi Al,

      Just a quick note regarding the following:

      You said:
      “You are no longer responsible for your behavior”

      I have heard others make this claim, but I can I assure you that this in not the state of my spirit. Not being under the law does not give a believer carte Blanche to sin, God forbid! I don’t know why people come to this conclusion, for if anyone does, he does not have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him or her. We are not under that law whatsoever. We follow Christ, being transformed into his image, but not by observing the written code. We are all works in progress. I do not get up in the morning and say, “Ok, now make sure not to committ adultery or covent or lie or etc, etc. Christ is in me and his word is written on my heart and I follow him not the mosaic law. Paul was not the only one understand this but Peter announced this as well:

      “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the pharisees stood up and said, ‘The Gentiles mus be circumcised and requred to obey the law of Moses.’ The apostles and elders met to cnsider this question. After much discussion , Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and tehm, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we are saved, just as they are.”

      So here, you have a group of Pharisees who have believed in Christ, but who were still clinging to the law of Moses and insisting that the Gentiles also be circumcised and obey the that law and when it says the “Law of Moses” it refers to the entire law, with all of its commandments and regulations, feasts, etc. And Peter shows that the Gentiles also received the Holy Spirit without conforming to the law of Moses and the outcome regarding whether or not the Gentiles should be made to observe the law is as follows:

      “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.”

      You cannot live under the law of Moses and under grace through Jesus Christ at the same time. It is through the shed blood of Christ alone that saves us. If we think that we have had anything to do in assisting with salvation by performing works, then we are no longer under grace. Salvation then would no longer be a gift through Jesus Christ, but something that we are working for by observing the law.

      The acid test would be that, if Jesus was standing before you and behind him was the kingdom of God and said, “Why sould you be allowed to come in here?” The answer should be “Because you made atonement for me by the shedding of your blood Lord.” But if your answer is, Lord, the reason that I sould be allowed in here is because you shed your blood for me and I kept your Sabbath’s, your feasts, I was circumcised, and I abstained from certain foods, etc, etc. Then that person would not enter in, because he is relying on works and not soley on the finished word of Christ on the cross.

      He lived the perfect, sinless life on our behalf, does this mean that we should not strive to be Holy, God forbid! But we fulfill those things through following Christ, not the written code. Paul made it perfectly clear that no one will be justified by observing the law, any of the law. The problem is that, just like the Pharisees, people continue to cling to the coventant that has been made obsolete, but we are now under the original covenant that was intoduce 430 years before the law through Abraham. Just as Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed God, so are we his children in faith who are also credited with righteousness through the shed blood of Christ. Notice that Abraham was credited with righteousness before he was circumcised as Paul points out. It doesn’t say that he was credited with righteousness because he believed God and because he kept the law, (which wasn’t even in effect), but only because he “Believed.”

      I’m sure that you are set in what you believe, as I am also. But I myself will follow Christ and trust in his shed blood alone for my salvaion. I do not even count any good works that I do as having anything to do with my salvation. The works that I do are specifically to glorify God and at the same time build up my treasures in heaven.

      “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith– and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Eph.2:8-9)

      If anyone thinks that he must obey the law, keeping those commands and regulations, and that without them they have no salvation, then one would be trying to earn salvation and then it is no longer a gift as stated in the verse above, but by works.

      • Hi Al,

        I do believe that your heart is completely sincere in what you are saying, and how you feel that it is an important piece of the puzzle that many of us appear to be missing.
        I get that.

        However, at the same time, with Paul himself being a Pharisee from the tribe of Benjamin to express what he said regarding the Mosaic law, to me makes it quite clear, and grateful as well, that within the New Covenant of our Lord,
        it is His grace that is sufficient.

        I will add the following as more or less of a post script to what Don has already stated above for further consideration.

        ” And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;” (Colossians 2:13)

        When Yeshua died for our sins, did He die for just a few of them, or as God say’s above, for “ALL” of them?

        That is the glory of being a child of the New Covenant. There is no sin that Christ death wasn’t sufficient enough to cover.
        He meant what He said when He said, “It is finished.”
        His blood covers the sins of our past, our sins now, and our sins of the future. Amen. He is our hope, and there is nothing that we can do at all to add to that.
        NOTHING. And as Don correctly said above, most certainly not in trying to earn it by performance based works.

        When we do works now, it is because we are saved, not to attain salvation.

        And in respect to us as believers, having to fulfill certain commandments of the Mosaic Law to be worthy of our salvation to me seems to consist more of taking a step back into the past, rather than, taking a step forward into the future.

        I know that this is important to you, so I wish to be considerate, and sensitive to what you, and others might believe. However, I would hope that all would at least consider it’s content.

        I hope that you would all agree that the Old Testament consisted of the Law and of Condemnation. It was full of repentance, renting of garments, wearing of sackcloth, throwing of ashes, and the numerous sacrifices, and rituals associated with it all. Whereas the New Covenant consists solely of Spirit, Grace, and abiding in Christ.

        When God gave Moses the Law, not only did it reveal to man his sin, it also left the responsibility up to man to reconcile himself to God. It was all left in our works,
        ”You shall do this. You shall not do that. etc.”

        However, the New Covenant, is all about the Spirit of life, and all about God, and Yeshua.
        God now said, “I” will put my law in your heart.
        “I” will be your God.
        “I” will remember your sins no more.

        Above when those of you who are making reference to keeping Gods commandments, I am sure that none of you are speaking about the 613 ceremonial laws. However, that leaves me wondering if you are then speaking of the 10 commandments? If so….. are you sure that we are still under those laws?

        I am not speaking from my own opinion here, I only attempt to understand, and follow Gods word.

        What does God say through Paul?

        2 Corinthians 3: 2-18

        2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart. 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious. 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech– 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

        What is the context of what God is saying through Paul here?

        – We are ministers of the New Covenant by the Spirit of the living God.
        – We minister not of the letter, (the letter kills) but of the Spirit, for the Spirit gives life.
        – Not written in ink, or tablets of stone. (What were the only laws that were written in stone?)
        – Read verse 7 to see what God Himself calls the 10 commandments. “The ministry of death.”
        – That Christ is through who we trust.
        – That we are not capable to do anything by ourselves, and that our sufficiency is solely from God.
        – That the veil of the law is taken away by Christ. He is our hope, and liberty.

        Romans 7: 4-7

        “4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

        We are now dead to the law. What were the laws that said ” You shall not covet “?

        Continuing….. Romans 7: 8-25

        ” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

        – Here is Paul, completely anointed with the Holy Spirit, capable through God of performing every gift given by the Spirit, drowning in the condemnation that was revealed by the law. Yet if we are ministers of the New Covenant and no longer live by the law, but live rather by the Spirit,
        “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1)

        I think that it would be fair to say, that we all tend to beat ourselves up a lot. Not that we should exalt ourselves, but rather we should try to keep things in perspective. Paul sinned and wasn’t perfect either.
        But I suspect that everyone would agree, that he is loved as a child of the Father.
        Was that because of all of the wonderful sacrifices and works that he did? Or did he gain that love simply by accepting Yeshua as the Messiah, and Savior?

        In respect to the commandments. I don’t believe we are under any law other than to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves. The moral compass that God’s heart is comprised of, is now written in our hearts as well. We are free to live by the Spirit, to trust in our hope and liberty as we abide lovingly in Christ our Savior. Amen.

        Just my thoughts.
        Shalom in Yeshua

        Funny, it seems like we have somehow gotten off of the original tangent of discussion here? Not like that has ever happened before…..🙂

        • Don and Gregg,

          I do appreciate your responses. I don’t know if you have noticed, but we are talking about two different things. I tried to explain that I was not talking about salvation, but that evidently didn’t stick. There is a big difference between Justification and Sanctification. 90% of what Paul talks about when he is talking about the Law, deals with those (mainly Jews at that time) who were trying to JUSTIFY themselves through the Law. “Ain’t gonna Happen”. We have already established that. We are not talking about salvation (justification) here. This is where the majority of the Church is stuck. They get born again and then don’t grow beyond their infant stage. He saves us to reveal His will to us and for us to grow to love Him more than life. To serve Him because it is our deepest desire to please Him. The mysteries and secrets of the Kingdom and the Father are His gift to us to help us mature and gain understanding of what is going on and why and how it all works together. Then you will not only be saved but you will start learning the Heart of the Father. I mentioned the Fall Feasts in my last post to Don and you didn’t mention anything. Tell me outright; have the Feasts of Yah passed away only being half completed? Did the Sabbath go by the wayside with the appearing of Yahshua? Knowing that man ruled this planet for 6 days (6000 years) and then the Sabbath rest on the 7th day (1000 year reign of HaMashiyach). The seven days of creation patterned the 7,000 years of man’s journey on this earth. We are just now about to enter the 7th day. I will ask the question again. Did God chunk the Sabbath in mid-stream around the year 30 AD., 3000 years short of His plans? We are hear to please our Father in the things He desires of us. It is our place to search out these things and do them. Don’t expect the answers to be easy to find. Do your own search. Not just reading a certain translation of the New Testament. You are responsible for finding the Truth of things. It is great to quote Paul, just make an effort to look beyond your translation to make sure of what you are saying and doing. I know where you guys are at, I have been there. Salvation is the entrance into Yah, not an end in itself. It is the beginning. Make the most of your time on this earth. Be a part of the Early Fruit. Yah craves it!!!!! I would appreciate a repsonse to the two questions above.

          Be Blessed in the Messiah!!!!!

          • Hello agian Al,

            With all due respect, what you are doing is slicing and dicing the word of God to circumvent the fact that the new covenant has made the previous covenant obsolete.

            “By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.” Heb.8:13

            As far as justification and sanctification, they are related, for justification means to be made righteous and sanctification means to be set apart unto God. These two go hand-in-hand, for it is God who credits us with righteousness through faith in his Son Yashua and it is God who santified us before the world began, that is, set us apart.

            You said: “He saves us to reveal His will to us and for us to grow to love Him more than life. To serve Him because it is our deepest desire to please Him.”

            The way that our love grows in him is by continuing in his Son, Jesus Christ and as we do that we are being transformed into his image as we go from faith to faith.

            In answer to your question:

            “I mentioned the Fall Feasts in my last post to Don and you didn’t mention anything. Tell me outright; have the Feasts of Yah passed away only being half completed?”

            As I stated before, if anyone, in his heart, is doing anything with the intention that it must be done to insure salvation in conjuction with the shed blood of Christ, that person will not inherit the kingdom of God. In other words, when we who are in Christ stand before him, he is not going to review our lives to see if we kept the Sabbath, if we kept feasts, holy days, were circumcised, or anything else that has to do with the works of the law. As for those who belonged to God during the time that the law was in effect, God will judge them based on the law in conjunction with their faith, for it is written:

            “The righteous will live by faith.” (Hab.2:4)

            The bottom line is that, the word of God says that, the covenant of the whole law of Moses was made obosole when Christ came. We are free from every bit of it and we now follow Christ who met the righteous requirments of the law on our behalf and then nailed them to the cross and thereby disarming the powers of darkness, for the letter of the law kills.

            As far as the feasts, the Sabbath or any other observance, I believe that a Jew can and should keep them for nationality sake and in honor of God if they want to, but not as a means for salvation. When we come to Christ, we are justified and sanctified through him. I don’t know how much clearer God could have made it through Paul and Peter. The entire Mosaic law was nailed to the Cross, not just the sacrifical part of it, not just the keeping of holy days, not just the keepiing of feasts, but the whole law.

            I have showed you what God had to say about it through both Peter and Paul, but you have not understood it, because you are slicing and dicing so that we we remain under the law and under grace at the same time, when Jesus freed us from the law. The works of the law is earning your way and being under grace through Christ is a gift from God. The man who no longer works, but trusts in God is justified through faith alone. Observing any part of the law to obtain salvation is an attempt to earn and is not trusting in the shed blood of Christ.

            I think that I can get a better understanding about where you’re coming from if you will answer this question: How does one obtain salvation? What is the basic requirement for being saved? If you write it down everything that is required, then I will know the answer. Here is what I believe is our salvation:

            “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.”

            Now, did you see anywhere in there that said, “and you must also keep the law moses with is oordinances, rituals and commands?

            In closing, you’re not going to find anything in the OT that frees us from the law, because that was covenant that they were under at that time, so of course it is going to support the feast, the holy days, the Sabbaths, circumcision, etc. We must look at what God wrote regardin his Son and his new covenant.

            Not mixing the covenant of the law with the new covenant of grace is what I believe that the Lord was conveying when he said, no one sews an unshrunk piece of cloth onto an old garment, for if you do the new will tear away from the old making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined.

            The old garment represents the covenant of the law and the unshrunk piece of cloth represents the new convenant. Likewise, the old wineskins represent the covenant of the law and the new wine represents the new covenant.

            • hi dmcal

              The 10 commandments were part of the Mosaic law too. Are they also nailed to the cross so that we can disregard them?

              Also, Jesus will be celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles when he returns to set up his kingdom. How does that make sense if the feasts are disregarded as well?

              • Hi Marianne,

                Hope you don’t mind me throwing in my 2 cents worth regarding this.

                The Jewish people during the Old Covenant did not have Yeshua, and weren’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit, therefore it was necessary for them to have a set of Laws to utilize as a barometer in how to live a Godly life.

                We on the other hand, having the Spirit, are led by the Spirit through the submission of our hearts. We don’t require the necessity of a written Law to live a Godly life.

                The moral aspects of the Law are not done away with, actually through the Spirit, I believe that we tend to live a more righteous life, if we allow ourselves to be sanctified by Him.

                Regarding the Feast of Tabernacles,
                I think that when Christ returns to set up His Kingdom, we are going to be doing a whole bunch of things that we have no idea of at this point in time, where that appears to be one of them.
                The question is though, is it a requirement for us to do them now today?

                Blessings of Yeshua

                • Gregg

                  It seems like we should actually enjoy and be eager to obey his commandments once saved.

                  the Word says….if you love me, keep my commandments.

                  also newly born again individuals need to know the 10 commandments or they will fall back into sin again.

                  • Morning Marianne and all,

                    Allow me to interject here. I believe that there is a misunderstanding. Not being under the law does not equal freedom to sin, that is, it does not mean that we have free reign to do whatever we please. Those who are truly in Christ struggle against sin, against the flesh, for the flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, for they are contrary to one another. Because we are in Christ we seek to please the Father through his Spirit who guides us. Furthermore, the commands that he is speaking of are not the ten commandments, but are these:

                    “And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
                    (1 Jn.3:23-24)

                    So you see, the commands that he is speaking of are not the ten commandments and by the way, there were much, much more then ten, but more like 800 commands of the Mosaic law. And as Scripture states:

                    “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

                    So, if you are going to keep any part of the law, but not the whole thing, then you are already guilty of breaking the entire law. So, are you keeping the law of feasts, food law, holy days, first fruits, passover, etc. etc.

                    “Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are not longer under the supervision of the law. (Gal.3:23-25)

                    We are free in Christ, but we do not use this freedom to sow to the flesh and to indulge in the acts of the sinful nature.

                    I hope this yet sheds some more light on our freedom in Christ.

                    Yours in Christ

                  • Hi Marianne,
                    Please find my response
                    somewhere below.
                    There is no space left here.🙂

              • Hi Marriane,

                There are many people who think that by saying that we are not under the law, that they take it as meaning that we have carte blanche to sin. That is not what I am saying. Shall we continue in sin that grace may aboudn? God forbid! We are the receipents of what God promise Abraham when he said, “I will make you the father of many nations.” Abraham was credited with righteousness because of one thing, and one thing only, he believed God. We are those who are blessed through Abraham having the same faith and therefore, we are also credited with righteousness for faith. We do not follow a written code of do this and don’t do that. We follow Christ and by seeking to follow after him, we abstain from sin in general. Does that mean that we are not sinners, no! If any man says he has no sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him. We are not followers of the ten commandments, but we do fulfill them through Christ. If we are seeking to be like him, then we are not going be involved in the works of the flesh. We are going to be fighting against that nature.

                We are not under the law. If I sin, I confess them and they are covered by Christ’s shed blood. For it is written, “Unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins.”

                We are led by the Spirit of God, for his law is written on our hearts. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father ever speaking on our behalf as our high priest.

                We do not disregard the law in the sense of “Whoo hoo, I’m not under the law, I can do what I want!” We fulfill them because we follow Christ. And because we follow Christ, we don’t want to covet, we don’t want to steal, we don’t want to murder, we don’t want to committ adultery, why? Because we are in a a faith covenant with Christ and we are endeavoring to be like him.

                If Jesus asks me, “Why should you be allowed to enter into the kingdon of God,” my answer would be, “Lord, you shed your blood for me reconsiling me to the Father and you rose on the third day for my justification.

                On the otherhand, if my reason for being able to enter into the kingdom of God is, “But, Lord! Lord! Didn’t I prophecy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and do many miralces in your name and kept the feast, the Sabbath’s, I was circumcised, didn’t eat the foods you told me not to eat, etc, etc. If this is my reason for why I should enter in, then he would say, “Depart from me you evil doer.”

                Ultimately, the answer should be, because you shed your blood and died for me.

                We are saved by grace through faith and not by works and this not of yourself, it is the gift of God.

                I hope that this helps shed some light.

          • Hi Al,

            I am sorry.
            I thought that with me prefacing my post in saying, “I do believe that your heart is completely sincere in what you are saying, and how you feel that it is an important piece of the puzzle that many of us appear to be missing. I get that.” That you would have understood that I was referring to the Feasts as well as the whole of the Mosaic Law.

            I apologize, and will try to be clearer in the future. Yet to further substantiate my point regarding this issue, I will simply quote scripture, regarding the Jerusalem Decree.

            22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. 23 They wrote this letter by them: The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
            To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”–to whom we gave no such commandment– 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. Acts 15:22-29 NKJV

            Blessings in Yeshua. >

            • Hey Gregg & Don,

              Hope the day finds you well. I hope you guys don’t mind me “killing two birds with one stone” by writing you in the same post. Sorry for that, just trying to lighten things up a little. But the words are kind of appropriate for a “slicer and dicer”, don’t you think?Okay, enough foolishness.
              Don,
              First off, Matthew 7:22 didn’t anything about Feasts, Sabbaths, dietary laws, or anything like that. You put it down as a quote and it wasn’t. I know you know that, but others reading this might not. Actually, sounds like someone out of a Charismatic Church.

              About Hebrews 8:13; are you aware that the word covenant is no where in that scipture (at least in the originals). More than likely, even what you are reading from shows it is implied by the translator. The subject of verse 8 is the passing away of the prior priest hood, and the New priesthood of Yahshua, after the order of Melech-Tzadik (King of Righteousness). What is decaying and disappearing is the sinful nature of man through Yahshua. That is what the Renewed Covenant is all about. It doesn’t say anything about throwing out the Torah. But let it be said one more time, because you keep going back and talking about be justifed by keeping the law, that is not what I am talking about. It never has been. When you say that we are not under the law anymore, you are right. The term under the law means that you are trusting in the law for your salvation. I never said that we should be under the law. Your not making the distinction between obeying and honoring the Father, and working for your salvation through ritualism. Yahshua is plainly seen in the Torah and the precepts contained therein come from the heart of God.

              Gregg (You can listenin on this too, Don),

              Concerning Acts15:22-29; new converts were not cirumcised in that day. It cameonly after study-faith and the intent of the heart. To be circumcised first was contrary to halakha (way to walk). Some of the Jews were saying they had to be circumcised upfrontand keep the Torah immediately. The new converts were told to refrain from a few neccessary initial things. The other would come later. If that is not the case, then isn’t it disingenious of Paul to circumcise Timothy in Acts 16:1-3. Timothy, being half Jew and half gentile.

              I honestly am not trying to convice you guys of anything. All that I am trying to do here is show that some of the traditions handed down to us by our forefathers (basically on the gentile side) didn’t do such a good job in stating things as they should have been. I am not trying to offend here. The Scriptures say to STUDY to show yourself approved. This is too important to basically take someone else’s word for it. Get reference materials from the oldest Aramaic and Greek texts that are available. I know you have a heart for the Master. In Proverbs 25:2 it says “It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter; but the honor of kings to search out a matter.”

              Brothers in Messiah

              • Hi Al,

                So, let me ask one question, when you see Jesus, will you take credit in regards to anything that you have observed in relation to salvation? That is, will you depend on the observance of anything you did in life as an aid to your salvation?

                I think that is a simple question and your response will give me the answer. As I said before, people can observe the feasts and holy days out of reverence for God and their heritage if they desire, just as long as they are not doing them as an aid to salvation, that is, I must do this to be saved.

                All I have been saying is that salvation is by the shed blood of Christ and that alone. If anyone is telling me that I must do other thing in conjunction to what jesus did, then I have a problem with that.

                Anyway, at least I think that we can agree to disagree here.

                Here is another good question meant to bring out the truth of the matter. Pretend that I am an unbeliever and I am curious about salvation. Tell me, what must I do to be saved?

                Yours in Christ

                • Hey Don,

                  Following is about 20 verses of Psalm 119:

                  Psalm 119
                  1BLESSED (HAPPY, fortunate, to be envied) are the undefiled (the upright, truly sincere, and blameless) in the way [of the revealed will of God], who walk (order their conduct and conversation) in the law of the Lord (the whole of God’s revealed will).
                  2Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) are they who keep His testimonies, and who seek, inquire for and of Him and crave Him with the whole heart.

                  3Yes, they do no unrighteousness [no willful wandering from His precepts]; they walk in His ways.(A)

                  4You have commanded us to keep Your precepts, that we should observe them diligently.

                  5Oh, that my ways were directed and established to observe Your statutes [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying them]!

                  6Then shall I not be put to shame [by failing to inherit Your promises] when I have respect to all Your commandments.

                  7I will praise and give thanks to You with uprightness of heart when I learn [by sanctified experiences] Your righteous judgments [Your decisions against and punishments for particular lines of thought and conduct].

                  8I will keep Your statutes; O forsake me not utterly.

                  9How shall a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed and keeping watch [on himself] according to Your word [conforming his life to it].

                  10With my whole heart have I sought You, inquiring for and of You and yearning for You; Oh, let me not wander or step aside [either in ignorance or willfully] from Your commandments.(B)

                  11Your word have I laid up in my heart, that I might not sin against You.

                  12Blessed are You, O Lord; teach me Your statutes.

                  13With my lips have I declared and recounted all the ordinances of Your mouth.

                  14I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies as much as in all riches.

                  15I will meditate on Your precepts and have respect to Your ways [the paths of life marked out by Your law].(C)

                  16I will delight myself in Your statutes; I will not forget Your word.

                  17Deal bountifully with Your servant, that I may live; and I will observe Your word [hearing, receiving, loving, and obeying it].(D)

                  18Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Your law.

                  19I am a stranger and a temporary resident on the earth; hide not Your commandments from me.(E)

                  20My heart is breaking with the longing that it has for Your ordinances and judgments at all times.

                  21You rebuke the proud and arrogant, the accursed ones, who err and wander from Your commandments.

                  Only the Blood of Yahshua can wash away sin. We cannot earn salvation. But does that make following the commandments, Sabbath, Feasts, and dietary laws wrong? I personally think that can be answered yes or no, and depending on the person, both answers could be right. Reading the verses above, one is struck with the humility and love for Yah and His word (Torah). The keeping of the commandments was seen as a joy and of incomparable benefit. He had nothing but praise and honor and joy for Yah’s concern over his life and well being. The author is unknown, but exemplifies how we are to approach keeping the insturctions. It is done out of love and respect and honor for our Father and great benefit for our walk in this life. In this respect, the law is only good and of much benefit to the one exercised by it. On the other hand, if we complain about not being able to eat what we want, not being able to do what we want on the Sabbath, taking time with Feasts that I could care less about anyway, then are we under the law. We hold the word of Yah in unrighteousness and it becomes a stumbling block for us. My heart is to please the Father in what I do. I fail miserably at a lot. But my highest calling is to please and obey Him. Does it save me from anything? No!!! But It is a sweet smelling sacrifice to my Father and I am happy to give it. A sacrifice is not a sacrifice unless you are with holding something from yourself that you like and do it without regret or begrudingly. Or you are giving something that is prized by you. Again does doing this save me? No!!!! But my relationship with Yah becomes something that is almost beyond words. Though the 119th Psalm was written in the “old” Testament, not many walking this earth now are pleasing Him more. When Yahshua went into Hades to preach to those who had gone before, I am sure this man understood and embraced his Redeemer with the same joy and honor and praise, that he embraced The Word, which is Yahshua.

                  The Ruach of Elohim dwells in me and I will worship Him in spirit and serve Him in this world with my hands and my whole being. I will obey Him to honor Him, thus making my path straight in this world, so that His presence surrounds, upholds, and protects me. Sounds like a good deal to me.

                  We are blessed in Messiah

                  • One last thing. This is not a theological debate for me. Seemingly winning or losing a discussion here is unimportant. That deals more with pride. What is important is knowing the heart of God and lining up with that knowledge.

                    • Guday Al, hope all is well with you.

                      I agree with you, in that, this has not been about ‘I’m right and you’re wrong” or winning or losing. This has been about contending and proclaiming the truth of God’s word. Reason being is that, this particular subject regarding law vs grace is not a trivial matter, and that because it is eternal life threatening. And this is why I contend for the truth. It seems that these days, that people don’t understand how they are saved. Some believe that they are saved by observing the law, others by grace and still others mix law and grace together. The person who lives under these beliefs have not recognized the shed blood of Christ which alone is our salvation. Jesus must be given full credit for the forgiveness of sins and our justification by his resurrection, anything else is trusting in self works.

                      The good works that I do, I do to glorify God and to build up my treasures in heaven and not for the purpose of obtaining or maintaining my salvation, for Jesus did that for me.

                      Yours in Christ

                  • Hi Al,

                    So, from reading your response it sounds as though all that you observe from the law is out of honor for God and heritage and not an aid to salvation, which is what I was trying to find out. As I said, if anyone wants to honor God and his heritage by observing those feasts or a specific day, then I don’t believe that there is a problem with that. It is when those things mentioned are deemed as manditory to keep in conjuction with Christ’s sacrifice that there is a problem. It is like someone giving you a gift and then asking them how much they want for it or what do I need to do in order to get it, when it was given free of charge as a gift, not something to be earned. For as the Scripture says, for the man who works, his wages are not given to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

                    But, just to be clear, if I was leading someone to Christ, I would tell them to confess the Lord Jesus Christ with their mouth and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead and you will be saved. Then I would tell him, read his word and begin to pray and have fellowship so that you may be strengthened in your faith. But at the same time, I would not include anything regarding the mosaic law as part of his need for salvation.

                    So, am I correct in my estimation of what you have written?

                    Yours in Christ

                    • Hey Don,

                      Shalom Shabbat! In what you are saying, I agree, for the most part. But, I do believe the instructions were meant for all of us and were never done away with. I know you see that as being wrong. I do believe that following the instructions. are for this life. of great benefit for right doing and maturity. As far as talking to a new convert about Yah’s instructions, I would give way to the Jerusalem Council. Only those things that are neccessary at the beginning would be required (receiving the free gift of salvation through the shed blood of Messiah). But when the new convert has become, to a degree, established in his faith, the usefulness and great benefit of the instructions would be conveyed. The person then decides for themselves what they will do with they have been shown and learned, with their salvation in the hands of the Father. Just like it is with all of us, which is to the fact of us sincerely accepting the payment of Yahshua’s sacrifice for our sin. Our basic problem here is the fact that you believe there are passages that say we are not supposed to have anything to do with any thing regarding the instructions. I persaonlly don’t see that. The difference is the source of where you get your information and where I get mine. That has always been the problem. Basically, whose word we are accepting. We may never resolve that in this lifetime. I will agree to pray for you and with you if you will do the same for me, and by the will of Yah truth will prevail.

                      Brothers in Covenant!

  26. Well said, Marianne. In Matthew 24:28, the reference is to the Greek ‘ptwma’, or corpse (whereas the Luke verse refers simply to a body (‘swma’). Perhaps these are the “dead” parts of the church — those not quickened (made alive) with the Holy Spirit of our Christ. (One things of conditions such as frostbite, gangrene or flesh-eating bacteria, where part of a body looks normal but is really quite dead. One thinks also of Jesus admonition that if one’s right hand causes one to sin (the wages of which is death), one should cut it off. Perhaps Jesus (as head) is the one doing that cutting.

    Thayer’s Lexicon notes that Strong’s G105, ä-e-to’s (translated ‘eagle’) may refer to the species vultur percnopterus — a carrion-eating vulture (unclean bird) which looks like an eagle.

    More speculatively, at least two world powers have used eagles as prominent symbols: the Nazis and the Romans. Oh, and us… the USA.

    However that symbolic interpretation applies (or doesn’t) we must remember that our preservation is not of the flesh (though that can be one way it plays out). Rather, as centuries’ worth of martyred saints can testify, our REAL preservation is in Christ.

  27. In 2009 I had a vision. I saw two identical men in a room. Then a brilliant flash of light in the corner of the room and a booming voice says “SEVEN”. In the next vision, one man remains, the other disappeared. I have interpreted my vision to mean, since the two men were IDENTICAL, one man being the OUTER (physical) and the other man being the INNER (spiritual). On another occasion, I awoke to a voice saying “WE ALL LEAVE UNSEEN”. Yet another clue. I believe given, these experiences, and my interpretation of the words of Jesus, once we reach spiritual perfection, Jesus will come to take us with him, which will not require a physical death. John 8:51
    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. I would like to share a prayer I have been reciting constantly: “LORD JESUS, PLEASE CHANGE US, PLEASE LIFT US UP AND TAKE US WITH YOU, ALL FULFILLED AS THE FATHER WILLS” The world and all physical form is in sin: not only do we repent our sins, but we must renounce the world and our physical forms. Fast as often as you can and when you do eat the food of this world, make sure you bless it in the name of Jesus Christ. All of the keys to the Kingdom are in the words of Jesus. Welcome the Holy Spirit to give you direct instruction, study the words of Jesus and you will receive the mysteries of the Kingdom.

  28. Not sure what you are saying here? They are talking about millions of New Agers making a Quantum Jump into higher realities on Dec 12, 2012? The Hopi Indians say this is changing times and laws of God?
    What are the original Greek words used where Jesus talks about this?
    Are you saying the ones taken will be preyed on? Or the ones left behind?

    • hi Solomon

      In this interpretation, which is an opinion, the ones “taken” are actually killed or harmed. The ones left behind are safe.

      If the New Agers really do disappear into a “higher reality” then this is a false rapture, a deception.

      Jesus will come for the saints. No one else.

      It could be that the ones “taken” are those who disappear into a “higher reality.”

  29. Catherine, be careful with visions….especially with self interpretation of the vision. Visions from God require ‘revelation’ from God….as Daniel demonstrated. If and when any vision contradicts the Word of God…it is not from God. ‘We all leave unseen’ …and your interpretation of the words..contradict ‘it’s appointed unto man once to die’…and the countless scriptures which praise the children of God ‘who loved not their lives unto death.’ ‘Re 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. To say that once a believer reaches ‘perfection’ or ‘holiness’ in God by way of the Holy Spirit…the believer is translated like Enoch and Elijah….not only contradicts a large body of scripture….thus calling God ‘liar.’ The spirit of man is indeed..invisible…and dwells in a shell of flesh….which is cast off when the ‘spirit’ man leaves the body. But..according to scripture…it is the visible body which God calls ‘Temple of God’…’lively stones’…’Body of Christ’…’Bride of Christ’,,the Church. ‘If a man keep my says he shall never see death’ refers to ultimate Death, spiritual death, the second death..eternal destruction. The verse in no sense discusses ‘translation’ of the holy/righteous of God. If your interpretation of your vision is accurate…God’s Word would be false….and there would be no Kingdom of God/Church/Bride/Body of Christ in this world…..no city set on a hill which cannot be hid…not Light to shine in the darkness..no laborers for the harvest…none to rise to meet Him in the clouds at His return.

    • I take great care with my visions and know a great deal about spiritual discernment. Christ taught in parables: Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. The words of Jesus may be understood on many levels to those given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom. Your words show your understanding is limited to your restricted religious doctrine.

    • Another thought… “We all leave unseen” is not contradictory. Your interpretation is.

    • Another thought… Being in a sinful world is death until we are made alive in Christ. Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    • One last thought… Paul says we will all be “changed”… sounds like translation to me!

    • Carolyn:

      You said my revelation from the Holy Spirit that “we all leave unseen” and “my interpretation” contradict the Word of God.

      Behold, Jesus says in John 3:8:

      The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

      Your words ” Kingdom of God/Church/Bride/Body of Christ in this world…..no city set on a hill which cannot be hid…not Light to shine in the darkness..no laborers for the harvest…none to rise to meet Him in the clouds at His return” reflect your limited interpretation governed by worldly religion, not The Spirit.

      Last year, Jesus came to me and told me his name. It was not “Jesus”. I knew His Voice, yet pondered this revelation until a friend told me that His true name translated from Aramaic/Hebrew to English was exactly the name He said to me!!

      I know I am rightly related to Him and this knowing has been confirmed by other believers anchored in The Spirit.

      Wisdom comes from The Holy Spirit, not from paper and ink and tables of stone and people with vested interest in their own religions.

      FEW will enter in the narrow gate, NOT many.

      Look WITHIN for The Spirit, for The Kingdom of God is AT HAND! EVEN AT THE DOORS!

  30. Sandy Champion, ny heart is encouraged with the wisdom you show concerning the end-time Church. Do you have a blog site? I am at internetelias.wordpress.com…where I spill my guts..lol..concerning ‘deeper’ portions of scripture.

  31. Caroloyn;
    I took a peak at your blog and what I read I liked immediately. I believe we are going to go through another pre-planned, repeat depression like my parents went through in the 1920’s. It’s going to be a time of testing for Christians and it can be a Harvest of New believers and a falling away at the same time. It will be a time of persecution in this country. That’s what those detention camps are all about posted on:
    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/detention-camps-in-us-for-emergencies/

    A repeat Nazi Germany by the Same people. And it’s not the Germans I’m talking about.

    There were Christians back then that thought Hitler was the Anti-Christ.

    I’m always going off the thread of the post. It’s my MO. During WW II the Catholics and the Seventh Day Adventist colaborated with Hitler and I posted some videos on:
    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/male-witchcraft-in-the-bible/

    Both groups have posted Videos on You Tube arguing about this subject and accusing each other.

    Who stood up for the Jews? The French Protestant Hugenost of Le Chambon Sur Ligon who saved and sheltered 5,000 Jews. Will this be a repeat, and not and I repeat not “The Great Tribulation”.

    Purim is tomorrow. Happy Purim everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/a-dream-about-december-18-2009/

    • Purim is celebrated on the 14th day of Adar, which is usually in March. The 13th of Adar is the day that Haman chose for the extermination of the Jews, and the day that the Jews battled their enemies for their lives.

      In leap years, when there are two months of Adar, Purim is celebrated in the second month of Adar, so it is always one month before Passover.

      The 14th day of the first Adar in a leap year is celebrated as a minor holiday called Purim Katan, which means “little Purim.” There are no specific observances for Purim Katan; however, a person should celebrate the holiday and should not mourn or fast.

      Some communities also observe a “Purim Katan” on the anniversary of any day when their community was saved from a catastrophe, destruction, evil or oppression.

      Fast of Esther is March 17, 2011
      Purim is March 20, 2011

  32. This is so cool. Ultraguy up there is blogging here:

    ultraguy said this on February 16, 2011 at 3:27 am | Reply

    Click on his highlighte name. Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I posted stuff off of this blog on:
    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/parting-the-land/

    http://newine.wordpress.com/2010/12/16/line-of-fire-from-mann-gulch-to-mt-carmel/

  33. This is confusing. I have a Jewish Calendar and it’s got Purim posted both in February and March. I do look stuff up, I don’t just guess. I have celebrated it with Orthodox Jews and I thought it was a little early. What the difference between Purim Shushan Katan/Purim Katan and Purim Shushan then?

  34. You answered it . Sorry

  35. I agree totally. The Lord revealed this to me at the start of my journey.

  36. Hi Marianne,

    This is a reply to what you had posted above Feb. 17th. 11:42 am.

    I am sorry if in my response that I somehow insinuated that in being obedient to the Spirit was not a joyful experience.
    For that was certainly not my intention to do so.

    Though I couldn’t agree more with what Don has posted as a response, and deeply appreciate the time that he invested as well.
    Please allow me to explain what it is that I meant to convey again, and hopefully I will be able to express my thoughts a little clearer for you, and anyone else who may have misunderstood.

    Where you say, “It seems like we should actually enjoy and be eager to obey his commandments once saved.”

    I would respond with, “absolutely!”
    Being obedient to our Master, is what the process of Sanctification is all about.

    Are we perfect in doing this? No, we simply can’t be while we are still in the flesh. It is a constant struggle.
    But for those times that we are obedient, when we relinquish our ego, and allow for His will to supersede that of our own, we should definitely share in the joy that it brings to the Father.

    Though I can only speak for myself here, I believe that it all comes down to the motivations behind our actions. The true intentions of our hearts. Each day as we live our lives, we all are presented with numerous opportunities where we are placed into a position of making a decision regarding one thing or another. We are left with a choice.
    If one is Spirit filled, and has allowed themselves to be submitted to the process of sanctification as best as what they are able to, they do not have to refer to say the written Ten Commandments to help them proceed with their decision.

    Because, since they are Spirit filled, they are immediately given the correct option in which to proceed. (I believe that this manifestation represents the Law that is now written in our hearts.)
    If we sincerely take our thoughts captive at that moment of time, we should be able to recognize, that one choice that we could make, would be better to serve Christ, where the other option only better serves ourselves. It is during these times, that we reveal the true intentions of our hearts, and also demonstrate to the world, and to God, who our real Master is.

    I am personally so very grateful for having the advantage of the Spirit over that of the Law, for I am just a man who unfortunately
    isn’t able to be all that he wishes he could be, for the Lord who shed His precious blood for the likes of me. However thankfully, instead of having to sacrifice something to attain atonement, and be once again reconciled to God for those times that I make the wrong decisions, I can humbly kneel down in prayer, confess, and ask for forgiveness and be cleansed once again. Amen.

    Where you say, “the Word says….if you love me, keep my commandments”

    You would be referring here to what Yeshua said in John 14:15.
    I would agree with this as well. The question though is, “What are the commandments that fulfill the entirety of the Law, and is the specific one that He was referring to?

    The answer is found in the earlier part of that same ongoing conversation in John 13:34,35. NKJV
    It is written…. “34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    Where you say, “also newly born again individuals need to know the 10 commandments or they will fall back into sin again.”

    Sorry, but I happen to disagree with this.
    I don’t believe that having a mental knowledge of a written down code of moral ethics, compares one bit to having the Spirit of the living God dwelling within you. The Law never did fully justify anyone, neither did it allow for the Holy Spirit to become indwelt, and the process of sanctification to take place.
    It was and is a mere shadow compared to the glory of the New and better Covenant.

    Hope that this clears up what I was trying to say.
    May all be blessed in our Lord. >

    • hi Gregg

      regarding this aspect:

      Where you say, “also newly born again individuals need to know the 10 commandments or they will fall back into sin again.”

      Sorry, but I happen to disagree with this.

      I don’t believe that having a mental knowledge of a written down code of moral ethics, compares one bit to having the Spirit of the living God dwelling within you. The Law never did fully justify anyone, neither did it allow for the Holy Spirit to become indwelt, and the process of sanctification to take place.

      The reason I made this comment is that there are many “born again Christians” who are living in sin, and do not even know what fornication is. Shacking up is a social norm.

      Many “born again Christians” also gossip, lie, and cheat on their spouses, divorce and remarry for reasons other than adultery. They do not see anything wrong with this. knowing the 7th and 9th commandment would be useful.

      Many “born again Christians” show disrespect for their parents instead of honoring them. knowing the 5th commandment would be helpful.

      Many “born again Christians” put their jobs or money or power or being important as a priority over god and family. They also can curse like a heathen. knowing the 1st and 2nd commandments would be helpful.

      yes they all believe in love of God, but have no clue what sin is. then they wonder why their life is so messed up.

      While their motives should be to serve God with their hearts, they cannot do this effectively unless they know what God’s will is to begin with.

      So I am not talking about what gets you saved, or justification. But it does deal with sanctification. Born again Christians who lie, cheat, commit fornication, etc are not sanctified, and are living in sin. No matter how much “love” they have, they are still in sin.

      • Hi Marianne,

        Hmmm, God does work in mysterious ways.
        The reason that I say that, is because I believe that I am more than qualified to be the one to specifically answer that question.

        Allow me to please explain that statement. Without going into any great detail, I was “born again” on March 15th. 1973.
        I had just turned 17 at the time.
        I was raised as an only child by a loving Christian Mom, who happened to marry a man,(my Dad) who had never addressed the abuse that he received while he was growing up.
        As time went on the emotional pain that he had kept inside, became manifest in an attempt to numb that pain with alcohol. By the time I was 13 or so, he was a full fledged alcoholic.

        Hurt people unfortunately, hurt people, therefore he raised me with the same heavy hand that he had been raised with, yet one that was now also fueled with alcohol.
        I then became emotionally damaged as well. Though I used to pray in my youth, and after I was born again, I couldn’t understand why God would not answer my prayers to have Dad stop drinking. To stop beating me, and telling me that I was worthless.
        After this continued on for years, the damage that you endure, and experience becomes your deep rooted reality. And because of that, I at least, when given the opportunity, ended up experimenting with a variety of different substances, to now numb my own emotional pain. And I participated in all of what you mention above.

        I would still cry out and pray to God during this time of my life, yet He remained silent, knowing in His sovereignty when it would be that He would choose to reveal Himself.

        And in my case, that happened bit by bit.
        In 1984, I quit all of the drugs and alcohol that I had been utilizing.
        In 1992 I found the courage to seek out counselling to address, and resolve much of the emotional damage that I had been subjected to, and was able to truly, and sincerely find forgiveness in my heart towards my Father.
        Then in 1993, God then chose to fulfill His promise, and to pursue His lost little sheep. Amen

        During that time in my past, I knew what I was doing was more than likely wrong in His eye’s. Reading the Ten Commandments wouldn’t have enlightened me in any way. I do understand your questions that you pose above, whether it be out of concern, or condemnation, really isn’t important. Yet looking back over my life, I am actually grateful for that which I have experienced.
        Not only am I thankful for the grace, and mercy that has been demonstrated, and extended to me, but it has also allowed me to empathize with others while they battle through their own personal trials. Knowing within my heart, that their addictions and their sin, is not a true representation as to how perhaps they are perceived through the eye’s of God.

        I have learned over the years that we simply can’t compare ourselves to others. It is up to God to judge the hearts of man. He is in control, and does have a future and a hope for all of us. He will lower Himself with grace, and compassion to those who are the very least, and most broken of us all, and meet them if He desires, in the depth of their despair.

        It is only if we ourselves have had the opportunity to walk in someone else’s shoes, that we have any idea as to what their personal experience may consist of.
        But for the grace of God, there go I.

        This is why Christ said, “we must love one another.”

        I close with this, “Do we not all live in sin?”

        • Gregg

          NO, we do not all live in sin.

          Unless we repent of our sins, and turn away from them, we are not saved, but just fooling ourselves.

          The 10 commandments are God’s minimum standards.

          If you have no interest in them, then God’s spirit is not moving you, but just some need to feel better in your life.

          • Hello again,

            But we are sinners. We wrestle with the flesh and sow to the spirit, but we are siners, covered sinners. For it is written, “If any man says that he has no sin, he is a liar and the truth is not in him.” But, when we do sin, we confess our sins and he is faithful to forgive of all unrighteousness. We in ourselves are not righteous, but we credited with righteousness through faith and God sees us through Chrsit as perfect, though we are not. Do we seek to sin on purpose, no, at least we shouldn’t be. But the fact is that we are sinners, made righteous because we are in a faith covenant. Any man who comes to Christ in the first place has come because he has regognize that he is a sinner, so how does someone after coming to Christ not understand that he is a sinner?

            • dmcal

              Churches are filled with the kind of person I describe. There is a difference between a true convert and a false one. It is the pastor’s fault who allow these false converts in. Like I said, you are describing the ideal situation.

              I have met many christians who do not even know that what they do is a sin, and no one tells them. The 10 commandments will mean a lot to someone who really cares what God’s will is.

            • I

          • Hi Marianne,
            Sorry for the delay in my response. I have unfortunately been experiencing internet problems.
            However, I was able to think about what it is that I want to say, and remove myself emotionally from where I was at when I responded to you in my last post above.

            Though I believe for that to be a good thing, I am sadden to think that you might be the only one to read what it is that I am going to say here. And that is simply because others that frequent your site, have now had the time to head on to new and different posts, that you have introduced. However, I will still do my best to respond to what you have said.

            Where what you had said, happened to hit a nerve with me, (as I tried to explain earlier to you as well) was because it reminded me of not only what I have personally experienced, but also what Christ was discussing in a portion of Matthew 7.

            We don’t judge, or condem “all” of these brothers and sisters because they are not necessarily walking as we happen to believe that they should as representatives of the faith. We don’t accuse, or chastise them using their error as a whip.
            For when doing that, all that accomplishes is to heap on to some of them a deeper sense of failure, and exacerbate their internal belief of what is already, a diminished sense of self worth.

            We draw them back, as Christ initially drew us, with love, and then, after we have established a loving relationship, we then have the opportunity to express to them their error.

            I believe, that it is those that judge these people that are the “real ones” that are in error, for they look at the surface of a situation, rather than delving deeper into the root cause, or heart of the matter.

            Christ does indeed say, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ in a portion of Matthew 22:39, and does also say,”This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.” (John 15:12).

            But what many simply fail to realize, or even bother to take into consideration at all is, that many of these people do not possess a love of self, to be able to even begin to share with others what it is that Christ asks them to do.

            “An empty vessel can not pour out and share something that it does not contain!”

            I believe that what Christ is actually saying in these statements, is that He is speaking directly to those of us who share intimacy with Him.
            Who know personally, that we are loved by Him, (in spite of our individual short comings that “we all” unfortunately have.)
            But because we know we are loved in this spiritual sense, we at least can share that love that Christ has in us.

            So in actuality, when Christ says that we are to love each other, He meant that we are to draw these people back by loving them as, He would have demonstrated His love for them, as if He was still walking the earth today.
            For clearly we are His representatives that are here today.
            And in doing so, overcome their inner sense of worthlessness by substituting, and instilling within them, a greater sense of self worth and value. To see themselves as God sees them. (Since we know that He is not a respecter of persons, we can’t exalt ourselves as being better than these other people, simply because we are more obedient. In other words, our perception of ourselves that is constructed by our own ego’s, is not necessarily an accurate representation as to how God the Father may see us. It is only when we will be judged by Christ, that we will actually find out how we did during our time here.)
            And to accomplish a relationship with these people, it can only be achieved through the demonstration of our love to them.

            Another aspect that I don’t believe those who judge take into consideration, is that these people may not even have the Spirit to begin with? This is a distinct possibility, when we take into consideration what is expressed in Acts 8:14-16. NKJV.
            “14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.”

            Now if this happens to be the case, they are in a losing battle, and struggling by themselves. For clearly as it is written as well in John 15:5.
            “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.”
            So these people can’t even begin to discern the meaning spiritual things, let alone scripture, simply because they do not possess the Holy Spirit.

            And if we simply point out to them their errors, we then place them into a defensive posture, and good luck after establishing that type of relationship, in being able to develop their trust in you, to the point that you could ever “lay hands upon them” and pray for the Spirit to enter them.
            Also, if we simply judge them, (while having understanding of Matthew 7 within it’s correct context), are we not in essence, then, (as Christ says) practicing a form of lawlessness?

            Satan is clearly the prince of power within this world. That can easily be confirmed within scripture, and what better tool could he utilize to further his mission, than to allow the foot hold of depression, the sense of self worthlessness, and the like, run rampant throughout all of mankind?
            And it is obvious to me, as we look around at the world today, he is utilizing this tool rather efficiently, to draw much of mankind, (even consisting of those of us who are of the faith), to fill up that internal void, and medicate that resulting pain with the pleasures of sin, and the things of this world. And apparently, this simple understanding appears to be eluding many.

            Christ has clearly told us “not to judge”. That is “His responsibility” to do.
            (I am pretty sure that none of us have, or will be given authority to be sitting in that Bema seat.)
            He has also clearly told us that “we are to love”. That is “our responsibility” to do.

            People tend to get the two completely different roles, and responsibilities, that have been clearly expressed by Him, reversed.
            And by how He expresses His opinion regarding that in Matthew 7, I would have to say He’s not too pleased about it.

            As to how you ended your last resonse yo me by saying, “The 10 commandments are God’s minimum standards.
            If you have no interest in them, then God’s spirit is not moving you, but just some need to feel better in your life.”

            I will not respond with something that is of my own opinion, but rather with that which is expressed in the word of God Himself.

            “9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”
            Romans 13:9,10.

            And “yes” that does make me feel better in my life.

            Just my thoughts.
            God Bless to all

            • hi Gregg

              It seems you assume judgment means condemnation, which is a narrow definition, and not what I was implying.

              As saints, we are permitted to exercise righteous judgment:

              1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

              Guiding someone to obey the commandments is an act of love.

              • Hi Marianne,

                I try not to assume anything. Rather, in discussing things of a spiritual nature, I choose to refer to the word of God as in how to proceed. As I believe I have done above.

                However, though I have just said that, I will express that I believe, and that it is my opinion, that,
                “Judgement means Condemnation!”
                They are one and the same.

                In our society for example, people are judged for a crime, then condemned to a prison sentence.

                It is not associated in any way, to “Affirmation”, through the word,
                and with the demonstration of love.

                Though you say above that this is,
                “not what I was implying.”
                I am now having difficulty in understanding what it is that you are implying, when you say above in your response to Don;
                “There is a difference between a true convert and a false one. It is the pastor’s fault who allow these false converts in.”?

                If I am wrong here then I am sorry, yet it appears to me that you are implying that a Pastor should simply kick these people out, rather than investing the necessary time in helping them with love.
                And to me, that is exactly what is the problem with “religion” and its associated legalism’s.

                I ask you to please point out a time in scripture for me, where Christ Himself denied someone to follow Him, because they simply didn’t measure up?
                Of course He suggested what specific requirements that would entail if one were to make that decision, and partake in that journey. But where did He ever deny anyone?

                The journey consists of a process, we don’t arrive the next day. And I believe that you yourself would have to admit, that you stumbled, and struggled in the beginning after your conversion, and that it took time to get to where you find yourself today.

                But what if in your infancy, a Pastor had kicked you out, simply because you did not measure up to their specific requirements, or bar? How would you have felt? How would that have been a demonstration of Christ’s love?

                How can that premise that you suggest, not be a form of judgement? That one either follows all of the regulations, and requirements that we have established right away, and if you don’t, you are gone.

                I have worked on the streets.
                Gone down dark garbage filled alleys, into crack houses, into the bowels of despair that exists in the cores of the cities.
                I do this in an effort to search out those that are in need, and are of broken spirit.

                It sounds to me, if I were to send them to the church that you describe, they wouldn’t make it through the front door?

                What is it that you are implying?
                I would appreciate it if you could provide some clarity regarding that? We could be just mis-communicating here, and arguing the same point?

                Thanks, and God Bless.

                • Gregg

                  I have never recommend kicking anyone out of a church if they were misguided into a false salvation experience.

                  I said the false conversion was the pastor’s fault, either because he misled them, or because he did not care enough to invest the proper amount of time with them to assure they understood what was going on, and what God required of them.

                  Leaving them in ignorance is an act of negligence, and creates behavior problems in the church.

      • Hello again Marianne and all,

        If I might interject again,

        If anyone has truly received Christ, then that new man in Christ has begun to form in him or her. When a Christian, new, old or in between is ingaged in sexual immorality of any type, they will not be able to continue in that activity happily. For though they may be fulfilling the desires of their flesh, at the same time, that new man in Christ is grieving within them and they are grieving the Holy Spirit. Remaining in that state will sap the joy from their lives, I know, because I wrestled with it for many years off and on. But after praying to God about it, I said, “Lord, according to your word I know that God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows to that is what he will reap. If he sows to the spirit, he will reap eternal life, but if he sows to the flesh, then he will reap destruction.” and I said, “If I don’t get out of this flesh so that I am sowing to the spirit, this is is going to kill me.” and the Lord brought me out of it, so that now the spirit is in charge, but I regret the time lost that I could have been glorifying God. Thanks be to God that where sin abounds, his grace abounds all the more. Now I keep close watch because I know that the flesh is always ready to be in charge. It almost feels like the flesh takes you hostage.

        Anyway, being in Christ is a growing experience and we are works in progress. If a new Christian is reading the word of God, he is going to run across the many places that are spoken of negetively regarding sexual immorality and as I said, he will know in his spirit as well. If they aren’t bothered by the things that you mentioned above, then I would question their authenticity, because the word says:

        “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed is in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.”

        Now, John is not commanding that they not sin here in this verse, he is saying that the individual himself will not be able to remain in that state because God’s seed (Holy Spirit) remains in him. It will eat him up inside if he or she is truly in Christ. So, I don’t believe that they will not be aware of what sin is, because the spirit of God is in them. Yes, they need to be taught and they need to study God’s word, but they will know by the Spirit when they are doing what is not of righteousness.

        Amen!

        • dmcal

          You are describing the ideal situation, where a new christian is actually moved by the holy spirit.

          But that does not describe many who think they are saved.

          They come to the altar because they are unhappy in life, and they hear that God’s loves them.

          They sit in a church that does not teach what sin is or preach against it.

          They continue in sin, thinking God’s grace covers them, and they can remain ignorant.

          Many do not even pick up a bible but depend on the pastor to tell them what to think.

          they hear messages on prosperity and how to get blessed by god by giving money to the preacher. Or how to get power in their lives.

          they have no clue who Jesus really is, except he is the one to sing to, to get their blessings.

          They have no clue what sin is, or what the word says, because no one told them they were supposed to read the bible.

          Example
          I recently spoke to someone newly saved, who was so happy that God loved him. it took several conversations to make him realize it had something to do with Jesus. He thought he did not need a bible because all you needed was God’s love, and to just enjoy that. I kept encouraging him to read the bible. It was only then that his eyes were open.

          Love and grace is fine, and necessary, but it is possible to have ignorant people in churches who are not guided by the holy spirit, because the Word is not in them.

          these are the ones I am referring to.

          • Morning Marianne,

            And you think that reciting the ten commandments is going to change that? The purpose for coming to Christ in the first place for the fear of God and how to escape the consequences for sin. What other reason would on have for coming to Christ other than to be saved and to inherit eternal life. A person who truly says yes to Christ and invites him in, will receive the Holy Spirit and the Spirit will give him guidence in these things. He also needs to read the word of God and to have fellowship. Anyone who comes to Christ must be convicted of his sins in the first place.

            • “The purpose for coming to Christ in the first place for the fear of God and how to escape the consequences for sin. What other reason would on have for coming to Christ other than to be saved and to inherit eternal life”

              One very good reason is to fall in love with Jesus. Understanding fully what His sacrifice truly meant. Borrowing from Kennedy, We should have the mindset of not what our G-d can do for us, but what can we do for our G-d!

              To fall in love with our saviour…to truly love G-d with all our heart, mind and soul, means that we want to return that love…it is give and take and we should want to give more than we take. And this comes by having a genuine love.

              I have always believed that no one should be scared into accepting Jesus by means of threatening hell.

              G-d doesn’t threaten us into loving Him or serving Him….that is the ammo of the moon worshipers….Islam.

              • Hello Lydsey,

                I’m affraid that I would have to very much disagree with you on this. What brings a person to God is when he or she finds out what their status is, that is, their sin separates them from God, their current state is one of being lost and they are in danger of Hell. The fear of God is a good thing, as the Scripture says,

                “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Ps.111

                “But the eyes of the Lord are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love, to deliver theem from death and keep them alive in famine. (Ps.33:18)

                Below are the two common words used for fear in the OT.

                ============================
                Yir’ah/Fear

                1) fear, terror, fearing

                a) fear, terror

                b) awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)

                c) fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety

                d) revered
                ==================================
                Yare’

                1) fearing, reverent, afraid

                =================================

                “The Lord confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.”

                “Let all the people of the earth fear the Lord; let all the people of the world revere him.” Ps.33:8

                “Fear the Lord, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.” Ps.33:8

                “An oracle in within my heart concerning the sinfulness of the wicked: There is no fear of God before his eyes.” Ps.36:1

                “God who is enthroned forever, will hear them and afflict them–men who never change their ways and have no fear of God.” Ps.55:19

                “Surely his salvation is near those who fear him, that his glory may dwell in our land.” Ps.85:9

                “In the council of the holy ones God is greatly feared; he is more awesome than all who surround him.”
                Ps.89:7

                “For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from he west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. Ps.103:11

                Regarding the fear of God Jesus said:

                “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Mt.10:28)

                So, in the verse above, we are told by Jesus to fear God, that is, God the Father and why we should fear him and with what kind of fear. There is no mistaking this.

                Mary in her song, said, “His mercy extends to those who fear him from generation to generation.”

                When God calls us he allows us to realize that we are sinners and are in need of saving. Saving from what? The lake of fire, hell, lose of well being, separation from God. Once we come to him and see his love for us and we receive him, we then begin to build a loving relationship with him, not that we loved him first, but he loved us first, but we never stop having the fear of God, for if we do, then we would be in the wrong spirit. I have had people tell me before that we should not fear God and from that time on, I have been circling everywhere in his word where it says to “Fear God.” You can’t read through Psalms without reading about the fear God over and over again. I know because I circled all of the verses that say, “Fear God.”

                Today, I have a relationship with God through Jesus and I still fear God and that is what God is looking for, those who fear him.

                “Then a voice came from the throne, saying:

                ‘Praise our God, all you his servants, you who fear him, both small and great! (Rev.19:5)

                ===============================
                Phobeo/Fear

                1) to put to flight by terrifying (to scare away)

                a) to put to flight, to flee

                b) to fear, be afraid

                1) to be struck with fear, to be seized with alarm

                a) of those startled by strange sights or occurrences

                b) of those struck with amazement

                2) to fear, be afraid of one

                3) to fear (i.e. hesitate) to do something (for fear of harm)

                c) to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience
                ==============================

                I could go on and on with this because the fear of God is all through his word. The love and fear of God go hand in hand, for Scripture supports this and it should be our natural reaction. But for those who do not fear God, this is the spirit of the wicked. For it is because of the lack of fear of God that they do not come to him. And if the holy ones who surround him in heaven fear him, who are you?

                • I understand your point above. But I really don’t think G-d wants us to be terrified of Him in that sense/definition of the word “fear”.

                  He wants us to trust Him, yes? Well, I trust Him and it is difficult to be terrified of someone that I trust. The two actually contradict themselves.

                  I love Him; I adore Him; I trust Him and I RESPECT Him….therefore I “fear” Him…knowing that He is the all that ends all and begins all…the alpha and omega…and He is to be reverenced for this reason among many others.

                  He is all powerful, yes, but how He uses that Power is not with terror but with Love…that is the difference. At least this is how I see Him now.

                  When I was younger, being raised in a Baptist church, I was taught to FEAR G-d…in my mind He was this ogre who was just waiting for me to mess up so that He could smite me….It wasn’t until I was 21 when G-d showed me through a dream-the crucifixion- that I was able to understand and grasp just how Loving He is and how loving His son is-I saw G-d through His son….because of this dream, I no longer saw G-d as an ogre…He was now a loving Father whom I deeply respected/”feared”.

                  Perhaps the word “fear” takes on a different meaning when we become His children- We know He will not hurt us-.

                  However, I do fear for those who are NOT his children and I know that they should definitely FEAR Him in every sense of the word…because of His being all powerful.

                  So….I guess in the grand scheme of things, it depends on whose side your on…As a child, I had enough “fear”, which is the beginning of wisdom, to know which side was the right one to take🙂 lol

                  • Morning Lyndsey,

                    I understand what you are saying. Those who belong to him should not think of him as you put it “The ogre,” but as God Almighty who created all things and who has power over life and death. Regarding what Jesus said, “Be afraid of him who can destroy both body and soul in hell,” this is not something that we stop doing after we come to him. It is by his chosing and that by his mercy and compasion that we have been called and not by anything that we have done or could do. The prophets of old fell prostrate with trembling and fear when they were in his presence. The angels who surround him fear him because he alone is holy. He has promised us forgiveness of sins through his Son, Jesus and promised eternal life, but our attitude should always be one of recognizing his authority, power and sovereignty. The fear and love of God go hand-in-hand. Those who fear him, love him and God loves those who fear him. I don’t believe that by fear that we should be worried that he is going to squash us the first chance he gets, but we should recognize him as Almighty God and the one who has power over life to save it or destroy it. The inclination to fear God is found throughout the old and new testament and those who do are favored by God. You can’t read through the Psalms without running into these two words “Fear God.” And as I said, Jesus conveyed it best when he said, “Fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” By this verse, we know who to fear, why to fear and with what kind of fear. After all, that is why Christ came in the first place and that being to save us from hell. The reason the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom is because, it leads us to him to look for his mercy and be saved, that is, we recognize his power to save or destroy. Thank God he made a way of salvation, because he didn’t have to save anyone. Anyway, that is all that I am saying. Now, I must go to sleep because I just off work and (night shift). I’ll talk to you later. Have a blessed day!

                    • Hey Don,

                      After I wrote my post earlier, I remembered a dream that I told Marianne about.

                      In the dream, there was a lion walking up my driveway towards my house. I was standing in the doorway…heart pounding and pretty much AFRAID of what was walking up my driveway. I was paralyzed with fear.

                      The lion then jumped on top of my car…only a few feet away from where I was standing. I watched him lay down and just look at me….heart still pounding, I then rushed to get my dogs inside from the backyard so that the lion wouldn’t hurt them or me.

                      As I was getting them inside, I realized the lion had not hurt us; he had not jumped the fence and I remember thinking “why”?

                      I then woke up and of course was wondering what that dream was all about. Then I remembered “Lion of Judah”…..the lion, though he could hurt me chose not to….my impression-after being awake-was that he was there to protect us and not harm us-even tho my heart was still pounding!!

                      And then I also remembered Marianne’s book where she references 3 lions…..

                      So, yes….I understand now the “Fear” of which you are referring🙂

  37. People have Left the Topic itself. Taken, the other left.

  38. I don’t know if it helps others, but it helps me to know where someone is coming from. A link on Tyrone’s blog was:
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/israel-church.htm

    It took me awhile to figure out where he stood, because ususally I go by links and he didn’t have any.

    He made a few good points here. If the rapture doesn’t happen like we predicted I hope we are there for the Jews when persecution starts to happen.

    I’m still a Pre-Trib. I just believe the timing can be off. I don’t like date setting.
    This is what tipped me off:

    http://endtimepilgrim.org/rapture.htm
    The Post Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture is a bitter pill to swallow

    For the vast majority of Bible believing evangelicals the answer is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Only about 5% of Bible believing Christians believe that there will be a Post-Tribulation Rapture. There is no surprise as to why this is so. Throughout North America the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is what the Christians in the pews and watching Christian television are exposed to. This is what they are being taught

    http://endtimepilgrim.org/israel-church.htm

    Evangelicals and Jews pretend to like each other and support each other. There is a lot of hoopla by evangelicals over the support of Israel. But when it gets right down to it the Church and the present Juidaic/Levitical priesthood of Jewish Israel still believe that their own specific anointing is “the one and only”. They sit down at the table together and say nice things about each other. But for the sake of peace each group quietly discounts the belief of the other without bringing it up as an issue. This is fine for now. But much better fellowship lies ahead. And the day will come when all of Joseph’s brothers will be reunited in true fellowship in Messiah.

    Yes Israel and the Church are in a family feud right now. But thank God the spat will not last forever. Each party thinks they “have it all”. The orthodox Jewish religion discounts Christians as “lawless” or “non-Torah-observant”. The Dispensationalist Christians, for all their talk of supporting Israel, know that the jews must receive Christ as Messiah They seem to think that nothing will change and that the Jewish nation will never be saved.

    There is a cause for some concern here. The evangelical Christian family, (it would seem), are secretly running short of patience with the Jewish nation. Proof of this can be found in their eschatology. They slam shut the door on their dispensational “Age of Grace” seven years early. Then they proceed to lay out an end-time scenario that sees them raptured out before the Great Tribulation and before the national salvation of the Jews. Oh yes, evangelicals are talking quite fondly nowadays about their imminent departure and of being raptured “outta here!”.

    • Hello Kittii and all,

      First of all, as believers, our knowledge should not come from what some majority group believes, but first, from our own studies. And speaking of Evangelicals, it was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America (ELCA), that in August of 2009 voted in that the sexually immoral, that is, those who pratice and embrace same-sex, could hold positions as pastors, teacher, preachers, etc, within the church, and that without repenting! Yet, the word of God says, anyone who is living like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor.5:9-11,6:9-10; Gal.5:19-21; Rev.21:8,22:15)

      Our faith should be based in God’s word. Whatever anyone teaches, it should be searched out and not just taken as gospel. Those who are in Christ, should always be in the process of becoming experts of God’s word. Therefore, our understanding of when the resurrection and catching takes place, should not be soley based on what others are saying, but by our own study, as with the rest of God’s word. The resurrection and catching away spoken of by Paul in 1 Thes.4:16, 1 Cor.15:51, John 14:1-3 is regarding the church, which is an intirely different entity from the Nation Israel, being made up of Jew and Gentile who are saved by grace through faith and who are not under the covenenant of the Mosaic law.

      Seventy ‘sevens’ were determined upon Israel as prophecied by Daniel (Dan.9:20-27) and sixty-nine of those ‘sevens’ were completed when the Lord was crucified. God then left off with Israel’s program, putting that last seven year period on hold while building the church. Once the church has come to its fullness, then the resurrection and catching away of the church, dead and alive, will take place and God will again pickup where He left off and finish that last ‘seven’ with Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world, bringing an end to human government with Christ establishing his. (Dan.2:24-49)

      No matter what anyone is teaching regarding the timing of the resurrection and catching away, the major consideration is the same and that being that, according to Scripture, the church is not appointed to suffer through the wrath of God (1 Thes.5:9), which will be meted out in the form of the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as all three of these are identified as God’s wrath (Rev.6:16-17,11:18,15:1,16:1) . Jesus is not going to build his church and then pour his wrath out upon it! His wrath is coming because of sinful,unrepentent, rejectors of Christ and those who do not fear God. The nation Israel will have two groups duing this last seven years, one group is the Male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who the nation Israel gives birth to. This group will be the first fruits to God out of unbelieving Israel who by the grace of God, come to the knowledge that Yesuha/Jesus is their Messiah and they will be caught up to God and to his throne escaping the dragon/Satan. The Woman of Revelation 12 (unbelieving Israel) will flee into the wilderness because of the setting up of the abomination of desolation during the middle of that last seven years and will be cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years until Christ comes. During that same time, the beast will make war against and conquer the great tribulation saints (Rev.13:5-7) for that same last 3 1/2 years. When it is all over and Christ returns physically to the earth, both Israel and those great tribulation saints that make it through to the end of that last seven years when Christ returns, will be those who go into the millennial kingdom in thier mortal bodies and will repopulate the earth during that time.

      In any case, regarding the resurrection and catching away of the church, Paul laid out the chronology of the these events in
      1 Thes.4:13-18,5:1-11, first being the resurrection and catching, then sudden destuction. In short, wherever the wrath of God begins, we must be gone prior to it beginning.

      Regarding these last days that we are living in, we should be continually aware of the following:

      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to sut their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what theri itching ears want to hear. They will turn away form the truth and turn aside to myths. ((2 Tim.4:3-4)

      This is in fact what is happening today! People writing books and slandering the apostle Paul claimng that he was a false apostle and a liar and that his writings are not God inspired. People teaching that we are still obligated to the law when, through Christ that covenant has been nailed to the cross and is obsolete. We have a billion plus people who are deceived into believing that Jesus sacrifice was not good enough to cover all sin, but instead must receive sacraments though so-called priests and that, only to get to purgatory. People being deceived to believe that Mary is a co-reemer, co-mediator, sinlesss, pertual virgin, queen of heaven, and that we must go through her to get to Christ and Christ to get to the Father. We have the Mormons whose creedo is “As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.” I believe that this was the same attitude Lucifer had and look where it got him! We have Jehovah’s witnesses who say that jesus is not God and yet Scripture says that he created all things. They say that Jesus has already returned in 1914 and is ruling through the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, yet Scripture says that, “Every eye will see him.”

      We must emerse ourselves in the word of God, attempting to master it for training, correction, teaching and rebuking. We need to be able to know how to answer people regarding our faith and how to spot imposters, that is, to discern the spirits. We must be like the Bereans who after hearing what Paul was preaching, went and searched the Scriptures daily to see if what he was saying was the truth. However, the problem today is that, most do not study the word of God, but rely on the teachings of others and are lead astray by deceiving teachers.

      One last thought, our faith should not be based on when the resurrection and catching away takes place, but on Christ’s death and resurrection. And regardless of when it does take place, we should always have a spirit that would not would not love life so much as to shrink away from death, keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

      Yours in Christ

  39. I love this site for the end of times theology interpretations, how we get heads together and try to put these pieces together. As usual, I come here and learn a lot while I thought what I have read on the Book of Revelations (2-3 times already) may not what I thought about.

    Curiously this topic (rapture) as I have browsed online it seems it is like something not “set in stone” meaning, it’s just loose interpretations on what people find in the Holy Scriptures, everything being vague; ykwim?

    I asked my skeptical husband about this; as if what if one day, the kids and I just disappeared, and he’s here all by himself because we were Taken by God to be spared of the Tribulation. I stumped him for about three seconds and tried in his earnest to contradict and eradicate whatever that may mean, since what’s written in the Bible is been there forever, and there’s no way that that would happen, nor that he would be afraid of being stuck here alone.

    I believe I will be good to go; I wear two of the Holy Sacraments, the Holy Rosary and the Brown Scapular. We had the blessing of Maria Rosa Mystica, under Her watch get rid of my daughter’s chicken pox (100% positive blood test, had it everywhere) THIS WEEK and she went to school today, clean as a whistle. Doctors are baffled. We’re at also the “could have been a viral something, vaccine kicked in late,” so on and so forth.

    The only thing about this is that my kids are not baptized. I need to take care of that so that I have this reassurance that they won’t stick around for the worst.

    • John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

      Doesn’t matter what we are wearing, be it a Rosary, scapular etc…that isn’t what saves us or blesses us.

    • The innocent need not fear. Infant baptizism is to make the adults feel better. It is a way for the Universal Church to control people.

      Not to long ago most could not read, and write. Human tradition from the Universal Church brought paganism into Christ’s Church. One of which is infant baptizism.

      The dead can not hear your prayers. Only G-d the Father in Christ’s name can hear your prayers.

    • hi palin express

      I am not sure how old your children are, but if they are old enough, talk to them about Jesus. Teach them to love and accept him.

    • Hi Palinexpress,

      First, let me say that it is good that you are reading to find out the truth of God’s word, for that is what God wants us to do. By studying God’s word, we can know what the truth is and also recognize what is conterfeit, of which there are many today. That being said, you mentioned that you felt that you would be safe in the resurrection and catching away, also called the rapture, by wearing the Holy Sacraments, the Holy Rosary and the Brown Scapular, as well as having the blessing of Maria Rosa Mystica. So that you can know the truth, these things that you mentioned above are all false teachings and the traditions of men (Roman Catholicism) and cannot save anyone, as only the blood of Christ alone can save.

      Furthermore, the Holy rosary, brown scapular or Holy sacraments are not found anywhere written in the word of God, as these things are man-made traditions and do nothing to aid in our salvation. When speaking to the Jews Jesus said, “You make void the word of God by your traditions” and this is still true today.

      It is very important for your salvation that you understand that Mary was a blessed woman used of God to bring Christ into the world, but that is as far as we should go with Mary. Roman Catholicism has made her a co-saviour, co-redeemer, sinless, queen of heaven, perpetual virgin and assumed up into heaven. God does not share worship, as his word says that we are to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul and strength. The word of God also states that there is one mediator between God and man, which is Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). That being said, Mary cannot be our mediator, because Christ alone shed his blood for us and he sits at the right hand of God the Father and speaks on our behalf. Mary cannot not do this because she was a sinner just like everyone else and she did not nor could not shed her blood for us, nor could she pay for our sins. Also, God’s word says that we must pray to the Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ and there is no other name that gives us access to the Father but his.

      As I stated above, the sacraments are man-made and cannot save anyone. Roman Catholicism created this because they believe that Christ’s sacrifice only covered original sin and that in order to be saved from our own personal sins, we must receive the sacraments which according to them are the grace of God being meted out by the priests. But the word of God says that Jesus died once and for all, which means that he took care of all sin for us. It is by grace through faith that we have been saved and not by works lest anyone should boast
      (Ephesians 2:8).

      There are many more false teachings within Roman Catholicism and I urge you to continue reading the word of God and compare it to what you are being taught. For example, you will not find anything in the word of God telling you to pray to Mary or that she has anything directly to do with salvation. You will also not find any teachings in the word of God regarding the sacraments.

      The practices within Roman Catholicism have their roots in pagan Babylon, which is what the pagans were practicing in Rome when Constantine deemed Christianity the official religion of Rome. But by doing this, all of those pagan practices were carried over into Rome’s version of Christianity, which is not true Christianity, but is paganism wearing christian clothing.

      I challenge you, instead of following after what Roman Catholicism is teaching you, read the word of God and compare it, because this is your eternal life and it should not rest in the hands of men who are false teachers. As you continue to read, anything that they are teaching you that is not found written in God’s word, throw it out as being false and trust in God’s word only.

      I hope that you will consider doing this, because there are gospels many and Christs many, but there is only one true Christ and one true gospel and we should come away from anything that is not teaching the truth.

      Yours in Christ

  40. Palin Express:

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/sinners-prayer.asp

    It’s very simple. This is how you can know you are saved.

    The Sinner’s Prayer

    The sinner’s prayer must come from your heart and we hope this will help you to invite Jesus into yours. This prayer is here only as a guide. We urge you to pour out your heart to Jesus in your own words.

    “Heavenly Father, have mercy on me, a sinner. I believe in you and that your word is true. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that he died on the cross so that I may now have forgiveness for my sins and eternal life. I know that without you in my heart my life is meaningless.

    I believe in my heart that you, Lord God, raised Him from the dead. Please Jesus forgive me, for every sin I have ever committed or done in my heart, please Lord Jesus forgive me and come into my heart as my personal Lord and Savior today. I need you to be my Father and my friend.

    I give you my life and ask you to take full control from this moment on; I pray this in the name of Jesus Christ.”

    Amen.

    Dear Brothers and Sisters,

    Words cannot even begin to express our appreciation to the Living and Almighty God for the greatest miracle of all, the salvation of your souls. We welcome you into the family of Christ. You are now beginning an awesome, exciting, unbelievable walk with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

    Looking back on my own salvation, I remember the great thirst and hunger I had for the Word of God and going to every service I could find, four or five nights a week. I listened to every Christian, reaching out in eager expectation for every testimony that I could hear. As I look back now, I find that I not only grew in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but I also grew in a degree of false doctrine, personal prejudices, and the errors of others.

    If someone could have told me at that time to spend at least 90 percent of my time in God’s Word seeking that direction, revelation, and guidance from Jesus Christ Himself, and 10 percent or less listening to what other people had determined that guidance meant, my growth would have been even quicker, even more blessed, even more glorious than it was. I am in no way complaining; for my walk with God from day one has been an awesome, exciting, thrilling, joy-filled experience. I would not trade one moment of the worst time I ever had after my salvation for all the riches, glory, and fame the world has to offer.

    And so with that being said… we introduce to you our topical bible study index.

    It is our prayer that as you use this index, you will become at least basically familiar with those things that God would have you to begin to know right now and continue gaining understanding of throughout the rest of your sojourning here on earth. Although this index is topical and mainly for searching the scriptures, you will also find some other words that will provide you with information from the site about the things happening within this ministry.

    Until we meet here or in glory, may God bless you abundantly in your study of His Living Word.

    Wisdom From the Word – Topical Bible Study Index

    Apologetics and Scripture verses to aid in your study and proclamation of the Word of God.

    •SCRIPTURES FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO KNOW HOW TO BE SAVED

    1.You must see Jesus as the sin bearer, the one who took all sin and the penalty of all sin upon Himself and you must see Him as the Savior from the guilt of sin. Jesus as the Sin Bearer

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/jesus-as-the-sin-bearer.asp

    2.You must believe Jesus is the risen Savior and the only Savior from the power of sin. Jesus is the Risen Savior

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/jesus-is-the-risen-savior.asp

    3.He planned to save you before the world began, even then you were in His heart and on His mind. You were in His heart!

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/you-were-in-his-heart.asp

    4.The sinner’s prayer comes from the heart, we hope this will help you invite Jesus into yours. The Sinner’s Prayer

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/sinners-prayer.asp

    •FORGIVENESS

    1.Do I really have to forgive others, or those who hurt me? Forgiveness

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/forgiveness.asp

    •THE PERILS OF ENTERTAINING FALSE HOPES ABOUT THE THINGS OF GOD

    1.The very dangerous false hope that there is no Hell, and thus no price to pay for sin and wicked ways. False hope about Hell

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/false-hope-about-hell.asp

    2.The false hope of being saved by living a righteous life A good and righteous Life

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/good-and-righteous-life.asp

    3.God is too good to damn anyone, there is no danger! God is love, He wouldn’t send me to hell! God is Love

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/god-is-love.asp

    4.The belief that you can be saved by human effort, of works or ‘trying’ to be a Christian. Saved by works

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/saved-by-works.asp

    5.Entertaining the false hope of ‘feeling saved’, or ‘I feel I am going to Heaven’, instead of building our hopes on what God says and promises. Living by our emotions rather than the facts of God’s Word. I hope I’m saved

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/i-hope-im-saved.asp

    6.The false hope that you are saved because of your status in the church, or because of the church you go to, or because you have faith – but it is a faith without works that cannot save you from sin, and your profession of Christ was false. Faith without works

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/faith-without-works.asp

    •THE BLESSINGS AND ASSURANCES OF SALVATION PROMISED TO US BY OUR FATHER.

    1.To those who openly confess and renounce their evil ways, His promise is forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/forgiveness-of-sins.asp

    2.He is our refuge and fortress, our strong tower in times of need. His promise is protection. His promise is protection

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/his-promise-is-protection.asp

    3.You will hear a voice behind you saying “this is the way, walk in it…” His promise to you is guidance. His promise is guidance

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/his-promise-is-guidance.asp

    4.”I have loved you with an everlasting love.” His promise to you is the love of God. His promise is love

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/his-promise-is-love.asp

    •SKEPTICS AND DISBELIEVERS.

    1.Your disbelief does not change the fact that He is God and He is real. God is real
    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/god-is-real.asp

    2.Lord help my unbelief Lord, help my unbelief

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/lord-help-my-unbelief.asp

    3.Do not doubt the existence of God. He is your only hope. God is your only hope

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/god-is-your-only-hope.asp

    4.Skeptics and scoffers who trifle over simple truths of The Word. God’s simple truth

    http://www.intothelight.org/answers/gods-simple-truth.asp

    •SCRIPTURES FOR WORKERS IN THE FIELD

    1.For those you are sharing with on the verge of acceptance, give them a firm foundation. A firm foundation

    • Kitti, leathneck, and Lyndsey

      Catholics believe in Jesus. You need to understand that, and get past your issue with Mary.

      • Hi Marianne and everyone,

        This is not a trivial issue Marianne. I don’t think you understand what Roman Catholicism is teaching. First of all, they believe that Jesus sacrifice does not cover all sin and that the grace of God must be meted out in the form of sacraments by priests. Furthermore, one dishonors Christ by looking to anything or anyone else for our salvation, for he alone shed his blood for us. Many of these requirements regarding mary were voted in during the early Vatican counsels and is part of their dogma. To say that Mary is a co-redeemer means that she took part in our salvation, which is not a trivial thing. It is also said that she is a co-mediator, which means that not only is Jesus sitting at the right hand of God, but so is Mary and she is speaking on our behalf. But regarding this, the word of God says there is one mediator, which is the man Christ Jesus. It is also taught that Mary was without sin, but God’s word says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

        I mentioned this in a previous post and that being, when Peter went to the house of Cornelius, he bowed down to Peter and Peter said, “Get up, I am only a man like you.” Likewise, in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8, John falls down twice to worship the angel who is giving him the information and the angel says, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!” Now, if neither Peter nor an angel will receive worship, who is the pope that men kneel and kiss his ring and to be called holy father?

        Roman Catholicism is “Mystery Babylon” as described in Rev 17 & 18. She is that woman, the prostitute who sits on seven hills (seven hills of Rome) and she was that city spoken of by the angel that ruled over the kings of the earth. To be sure, God does have people within that false religious system and at some point he will say, “Come out of here my people so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.” And why is God saying this? Because he is going to use the beast and the ten kings to destroy her!

        Not all ways lead to God. We must be decerners of the truth and we should contend for that truth and not compromise with it. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in Jesus, but they believe that he is the brother to Lucifer, a created being and not God, should we include them as being Christian as well? Mormon’s also believe in Christ, but they also have a creedo which says, “As man is God once was, and as God is man may become.” This is the same attitude that caused Lucifers fall, Should we include them too?

        These divisions have come because we are in the last days and we should be contending for the truth, not compromising with it! paul wrote about this when he said:

        “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

        Paul also said the following:

        “The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocrital liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.”

        Regarding this issue Peter also said:

        “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly intoduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. (2 Peter 2:1-3)

        So you see, it is important that we believe in the true Christ and the true gospel according to God’s word, because there are many counterfeits and we should also contend for the truth.

        All of these splinter sects of the true church are the working of Satan for the sake of deception. Today, more than ever, we need to be grounded in the truth

        • Well said Don.

          When reading this verse that you posted, I couldn’t help but think of the catholic church: (2 Peter 2:1-3)

          I have always noticed that those who are catholic will never mention Jesus. They will always mention and talk fondly of Mary. All of their alleged visions consist of Mary. Their rosary begins with “hail mary, full of grace”….its all about Mary and NEVER her son.

          How deceptively clever lucifer is in that he was able to create an entire religion that “masks” christianity but was able to take CHRIST out of it!

          He took it one step further and changed times and laws; removed one of the ten commandments and split another one so as to turn it back into 10; Dress up an elderly man and make him “holy” so that the masses will focus their attention, time and adoration/worship upon him…..then you have them put their “faith” in a man, statue and dead people-calling them saints-and then all of a sudden you have them thinking they are “saved” but all the while you have them turning away from the TRUTH-the TRUE SAVIOUR-JESUS CHRIST and no one is the wiser.

          Now for those who know the truth, we can either sit back and observe the deception OR we can speak up and shine a big light on the LIE. We point them in the direction of Mary’s SON-the SON OF G-D, Jesus Christ who said that he was the only way, the TRUTH and the life and that NO ONE (including his mom, Mary) can go to the father except through HIM!

          This IS a big deal and to say that it isn’t is to compromise what we know to be the truth. And if we compromise, then aren’t we just as guilty?

          • lyndsey

            Neither you, kitti or don really understand catholics or how they think. WHile there are errors, your interpretation of the motives involved is wrong. That is why I am saying do not criticize what you do not understand. You are going by hearsay, rather than actual experience.

            • Hey Marianne,

              With all due respect, It is not hearsay, it is from my best friend and her family whom I have known for 34 years who were all raised catholic and from my visit to the vatican.

              My friend and her family have recently left the catholic church because of the deception they finally realized they were under.

              My visit to the vatican opened my eyes to what was wrong-at the time I didn’t know and didn’t care at age 23. What I saw were people standing in line and crying for their “saviour” who was only a man.

              By the way they were acting, You would’ve thought the Beatles were just around the corner or even Elvis for that matter.

              I saw nuns selling crucifixions inside the vatican store as well as ashtrays with the crucifixion engraved where a smoker would put out their cigarette. It was disturbing to say the least.

              And back to my friend, I remember the hail marys that were said -that I could never memorize-under the christmas tree whenever I would stay over at my friends house during the holidays.

              My friend always talked about Mary and never Jesus. She had never read the scriptures because only their priests read the scriptures aloud at church. When I attended her church, I heard the priest only read the scriptures in latin!

              My friend and her family are now saved and attend a baptist church-not my first choice but at least they are hearing about Jesus Christ and what He did for them instead of taking the word of a priest who encouraged them to focus on Mary and would tell them how many hail marys to say to erase their sins during confession.

              For years I always thought my friend and her family were saved-they were catholic right? We would laugh at my attempts to say the hail marys at Christmas and life went on.

              However, During a conversation with her recently I learned differently. Fortunately, they discovered the lie themselves and got out as soon as they learned the truth.

              We should never assume Marianne. Catholicism is NOT Christianity. Christ has been removed from this religion. Catholics put their faith and their trust in a man, in a priest, in a nun and for some, it never occurs to them that something is wrong. To even question their beliefs is considered heresy and they are doomed to hell for even thinking of it-thinking for themselves.

              Whenever the focus is taken off of Jesus Christ, you have a recipe for disaster, period!

  41. From someone (You Marianne) who attends an orthodox synagogoue with a charismatic Christian background, from someone (me, Kittii) who has a background as an Episcoplian and now is a born again evangelicial Christian from the Jesus Movement, who has been to Israel and served in Sar-el 4 times I can’t believe you are saying that and I won’t get over it, sorry.

    • Kitti

      Catholics do believe in Jesus. I expect people, if they have the urge to witness, to do it properly.

      You deny their salvation, which is a huge error. Being deceived or confused does not make a person unsaved. It just means they are ignorant of some truths.

      Denying someone’s salvation is very hurtful to them.

      There are many Protestants who are equally ignorant in other truths, and they are considered saved, yet ignorant.

      You have to spend time with a person and question them, to see if they are truly saved, and not jump to conclusions, just because they say they are Catholics.

      There are saved and unsaved Catholics, just as in other denominations.

  42. Stop defending people, Marianne. Let them speak for themselves. I compromised in my family by hanging up Christmas decorations and not pushing my beliefs about Pagan Christmas holidays on them and everyone else, even thought I had the documentation to back it up. I’ve admitted sometimes my language is used wrongly. I documented that in a post to the Muslims on 666 post. I want to be a witness to all people. I’m not compromising on “Mary”. Asking me to get over my issues on “Mary” is like askig me to get over my issues with George W. Bush, Barak Obama, Allah, Rich Warren etc. You haven’t asked me to get over my issues with those people on any of my other posts on this blog. Let’s see if Lyndsey and Leatherneck have the Chutzpah to stand up to you.

  43. I wasn’t denying her salvation (palin express); I noticed that she wrote the following statement when reassuring herself that she was saved “I believe I will be good to go; I wear two of the Holy Sacraments, the Holy Rosary and the Brown Scapular. We had the blessing of Maria Rosa Mystica,..”

    I thought of letting it go….then realized that ALL have to answer for the decisions they make. If I made the decision to not say anything regarding the above then wouldn’t I be held accountable for denying someone the truth?

    I know that I would want someone to let me know the truth and to show me the proof.

    If someone thinks a rosary or scapular was going to save them and get them into heaven, isn’t this dangerous to allow them to continue believing that? And Especially since we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that this will absolutely NOT happen!

    G-d says “my people perish for lack of knowledge” Hosea 4:6

    My job is not to convince her or anyone; only to give them the truth and the opportunity to choose for themselves.

  44. lyndsey and kitti

    For a Catholic, Jesus is the Savior. Mary got added in as an extra.

    That is the fault of the church. But just because mary got added in, does not mean they are not saved. What it does indicate is confusion.

    If I decorate a Christmas tree next Christmas, it will not make me a pagan either.

  45. Is the Pope saved to? I could document until I’m blue in the face on this subject. Testimonies of former Nuns and Priests, web sites etc I don’t buy it what you are saying. You are just adding to the confusion, because maybe you are confused. I try to find common ground, but I’m not going to compromise. Catholics have Christianized pagan rituals and holidays. There’s only one way. That was the moto of the Jesus movemnt. It’s okay to be friends with them and all the other cults too. That includes Muslims too.

    It’s okay for James Giordano to criticize Cahtolicism because he can write, but with me it’s a different story. If I didn’t believe Jesus Christ is the Jewish Messiah I would convert to Judaism, that’s how strong I feel about it. Drop it Marianne. I’m not going to change your opinion and you aren’t going to change mine. I’m holding my ground on this one, even if I’m in the minority.

    • Kitti

      Salvation is based on a conversion of the heart.

      I am saying that despite doctrinal errors, the heart can be in the right place.

      God is the judge of the heart, not us.

      Of course, it is good to correct the errors, but it needs to be done in a charitable way.

  46. Who is being uncharitable? You’re being uncharitable to Lyndsey, Leatherneck and me by asking us to get over our issues and compromise our beliefs. Palin express asked about salvation and I brought up the sinners prayer. How more charitable can you get? You can’t earn salvation. It’s a gift. A simple prayer. All the Catholics I know, and they are inenermerable once they read the Bible renounce all the rituals, but maybe not the holidays. As a matter of fact we’re having a Messianic Passover seder this April at was new my church. (Church, not Messinaic congregation) Last year and they didn’t have it for some reason.

    • kitti

      you do not comprehend my point. You do not comprehend Palin express’s point either.

      charitable refers to a loving manner, in the context used.

      Palin express did not ask about salvation for herself. She only mentioned needing to see her children baptized.

      I did not ask that you compromise legitimate beliefs.

      I was indicating that harsh ignorant comments are uncharitable.

      You saw she was Catholic, and assumed she needed to be saved.

  47. Palin Express said:
    I believe I will be good to go; I wear two of the Holy Sacraments, the Holy Rosary and the Brown Scapular

    If you need a “scapular” you’re not saved and don’t understand salvation.

    What uncharitable think did I say until you blasted me by telling me to get over my “Mary” issues.

  48. She’s taking in consideration things she never did before, like the rapture.

    “I love this site for the end of times theology interpretations, how we get heads together and try to put these pieces together. As usual, I come here and learn a lot while I thought what I have read on the Book of Revelations (2-3 times already) may not what I thought about”

    If that’s the case she needs to make sure she’s saved. Salvation should be our focus. Do you know anything about a scapular, Marianne?

    • kitti

      Instead of focusing on the splinter in her eye, why don’t you focus on and take the beam out of your own eye?

      Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

      Do you know about the admonition of passing judgment on others?

    • kitti

      Instead of focusing on the splinter in her eye, why don’t you focus on and take the beam out of your own eye?

      Luk 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      Luk 6:42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

      Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.

      Do you know about the admonition against passing judgment on others?

      Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

      Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

  49. You’re either saved or you’re not saved. Marinne, let Palin express speak for herself. Why do you feel the need to defend and speak for others. We’re not children here.

    It’s real simple to know if you’re saved.
    If she’s said the prayer than she is saved and has eternal salvation. Why are we continuing to debate this?

    http://www.sinner-prayer.com/

    Sinner’s Prayer? That’s Not For Me – I’m Not a Sinner!
    “Sinner” is a word that gets a bad rap these days – and well it should. Unfortunately, the bad rap it is getting is for the wrong reasons. Confronted with our shortcomings, we are quick to defend ourselves with words like, “I’m not a sinner! I don’t go around sinning! I’ve never murdered anyone or anything like that!” The problem is, we don’t really know what the word sin means. We think it only applies to some despicable act that repulses “church people” who want to hang big scarlet letters around our necks. But sin simply means to miss the mark; to fall short of the goal. The fact is, we are all sinners, for there is no one, save Christ alone, who has lived a life that did not in some way fall short of the perfection God requires. We all deserve to pay the penalty for that sin, which is to spend eternity in hell.

    Sinner’s Prayer – What the Bible Says About Sin
    Sin, according to the Bible, is any action that violates the law given by God in the Ten Commandments. The law was given by God to show us what it means to live a life deserving of God’s love. It was also given to show us that none of us can live that kind of life. God knew that in advance, and that is why He sent His Son Jesus to be that perfect life for us. Jesus, God in human flesh, voluntarily laid aside His God-hood to connect with us, to show us He understands us and to give us a way to be reconciled to the Father, since none of us can keep the law to its letter. “For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

    Some say that sin is two letters, “s” and “n”, with “I” in the middle. We elevate ourselves, and certainly we live in a time when that thinking is being promoted. Sin may be something we can’t be free of, but the good news is we can be free of its penalty. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23)

    Sinner’s Prayer – Become a Sinner Saved by Grace!
    What’s the key to the Sinner’s Prayer? As long as we are content to live in sin, the Bible says we are separated from God. That condition may seem fine for a while, but it ultimately leads to misery and then to eternal separation from God. “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.” (Proverbs 16:25). The good news is that God Himself has made a way for us to be reconciled to Him, and He has done this through His Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 5:6-15).

    What about you? Are you content to live for yourself, get the most toys, and die anyway? Or do you want a life of purpose and hope? God, the One who created you, has a purpose for your life and wants to give you a new beginning. If you are ready to admit your need for a clean slate in life, the God of second chances is waiting to give it to you. All you have to do is start with the Sinner’s Prayer.

    Sinner’s Prayer – Recognizing the Need
    The “Sinner’s Prayer” is a term that describes the words spoken by a person when he or she has recognized their sin and their need for a relationship with God through Jesus Christ. It goes something like this:

    “Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus’ name I pray, Amen.”
    If you decided to repent of your sins and receive Christ today, welcome to God’s family. Now, as a way to grow closer to Him, the Bible tells us to follow up on our commitment.
    Get baptized as commanded by Christ.
    Tell someone else about your new faith in Christ.
    Spend time with God each day. It does not have to be a long period of time. Just develop the daily habit of praying to Him and reading His Word. Ask God to increase your faith and your understanding of the Bible.
    Seek fellowship with other followers of Jesus. Develop a group of believing friends to answer your questions and support you.
    Find a local church where you can worship God.

    • kitti

      She never said she was not a sinner. You did. You judged her as unsaved and then lectured her.

      • Morning Marianne and all,

        This whole thing seems to have been blown out of proportion. The responses to “Palinexpress” came because of what she said regarding the following:

        “I believe I will be good to go; I wear two of the Holy Sacraments, the Holy Rosary and the Brown Scapular. We had the blessing of Maria Rosa Mystica, under Her watch get rid of my daughter’s chicken pox (100% positive blood test, had it everywhere) THIS WEEK and she went to school today, clean as a whistle. Doctors are baffled. We’re at also the “could have been a viral something, vaccine kicked in late,” so on and so forth.”

        We all responded because, in her post, she was clearly trusting her assurance of resurrection or catching away by observing the ritual practices of wearing two of the holy sacraments, performing the holy rosary and the brown scapular, these of course being practices of Roman Catholicism. If she is believing in these false teachings, should we not tell her? Our purpose should be to share the truth of God’s word with her, so that she can come away from such things. Many people are being led astray because of false teachings. For example, in the beginning of the church, people were receiving Christ and at the same time holding on to the law, which is why Paul, through the Holy Spirit, wrote so much on the subject, warning them that no one would be justified by observering the law. So by clinging to the works of the law for their salvation, they cancel out the grace of God and that because they were trusting in their own works. So also, those who pray to Mary, considering her as a co-saviour, co-redeemer, etc, are not recognizing the shed blood of Christ, which alone is our salvation. And on top of that, as I said, they practice the sacraments because according to Catholic teaching, Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough to cover all sin. These teachings keep them from Christ, even though their motives may be genuine, by these things they are not trusting in Christ for their salvation and we should warn them.

        There are many Christs and many gospels, but there is only one true Christ and gospel. When we see deviation from the truth, then we who know the truth should make it known to those who are being led astray. In short, no matter what her motives are, she is in danger because of these beliefs and practices and should be warned.

        Jehovah’s witnesses believe in Christ, but by their teachings, they don’t believe him to be God. Their motives may be right, but will that save them? Mormons believe in Christ, a created being, spirit brother to Lucifer, yet the word of God says that Jesus created all things and by him all things are held together, they trust in the teachings of men. Will their right motives save them? If palinexpress and others are trusting in Mary as there co-savior and mediator, will their right motives save them? By doing so, they worship another human being along side of God. We should reach out in love and warn anyone who is following after any false teachings, because this has to do with eternal life and Satan has put these false teachings her because he knows that it leads them away from the true Christ and the true gospel. Since Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected, how then can we partake with those who are worshiping another or worshiping other things?

        We must be firm in the truth regarding these things and not embrace them, nor be casual about them.

        • hi dmcal

          Actually, earlier you gave the best response to her. Notice I did not disagree with it.

          My issues are these:

          1. Someone may be saved but be in error because of what they have been taught. In this case just explain what is wrong and why.

          2. Just because someone is Catholic, do not automatically assume they are NOT saved. There are saved Catholics.

          3. The MANNER in which we point out error is critical. to be harsh, or quick to judge the person as unsaved could create a wound that will be hard to heal later, especially if the one is devoted to Jesus.

          4. If someone expresses error, then we have to question them in a kind manner. Slashing at them as if they are infidels is harmful. We can get them to see the error better if we are patient and kind to them.

  50. Use academic language, Marianne. No one slashed at her. Infidels is a Muslim term. Who is judging who?

  51. Marianne
    >>The ones “taken” end up with the “eagles.”<<

    I feel that this refers to people who are in receipt of Jesus' testimony that he has come so that we may be the children of God, and as scripture points out "He shall raise you up on eagles wings" so the eagles in this case are the children of God, also a dead body is a husk which contained this inner child, who became so for the sake of the Kingdom.

  52. Hi Marianne

    Gregg said this on February 17, 2011 at 5:

    >>>>The Jewish people during the Old Covenant did not have Yeshua, and weren’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit, therefore it was necessary for them to have a set of Laws to utilize as a barometer in how to live a Godly life.<<>> In the next vision, one man remains, the other disappeared. I have interpreted my vision to mean, since the two men were IDENTICAL, one man being the OUTER (physical) and the other man being the INNER (spiritual). On another occasion, I awoke to a voice saying “WE ALL LEAVE UNSEEN”. Yet another clue. I believe given, these experiences, and my interpretation of the words of Jesus, once we reach spiritual perfection, Jesus will come to take us with him, which will not require a physical death. John 8:51<<<<

    Gregg is quite wrong to say that the OT Jews were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they most certainly were, the law Was given specifically so that the Holy Spirit would make Judgement on Gods people, being as he was the principal witness against the accused. It is a salient fact that from the giving of the Law onwards the Jewish people came closer and closer to God (the Father) so much so that they Father and Son felt confident enough to engage personally with MAN, so that their righteousness could not be questioned being as the Son (who judges, the Father cannot judge) lived in a Man, and thought in man, that this final judgement of Man was something "other" than what humanity could contradict,or gainsay.

    Fact 1
    Exodus 20:4-6
    4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Fact 2
    Exodus 34:6-8
    6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
    8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.

    Fact 1 establishes that God The Holy Spirit (The WORD) was working with God the Father in the redemption and salvation of men, and that (the world to Come) Paradise was inhabited by thousands of generations of those who kept faith with God, even in the OT times.
    for example Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness. Remember though that the redemptipn and salvation given by God the Father was different than that given by the Spirit of Truth, because God the Father loves the whole human race,and does 1* NOT judge, and the Spirit of Truth,Judges those who are in reciept of the Truth or who espouse to be believers, which is a more rigourous judgement, one must seperate different human experiences because they are all subjective experiences, we have a man who has lived a sumptious meaningless life, many friends, and many lifelong regrets who comes to a realisation shortly before death of how miserable his life is in the sight of God, and he repents, or he might be a victim of a murder. Each of these have not "washed their robes in the blood of the lamb" and so in the merciful justice of God and they are saved "from Judgement" and those who are "Near to the Fire" are saved "Through Judgement" the main fact is that it is Jesus Christ AND God the Father are working together, only a true reprobate is lost.

    Fact 2 We must think differently to understand this text, because it affects us all contemporaneously, even before we are born we are allocated to parents of whom we have no inkling of their acts and ommisions before God, yet the facts are that we have values only God the Father can understand, it may be that each of us have an account with God in which he has expended graces and he is awaiting the harvest he has lavishly promoted.

    Catherine has a decision to make which no-one else can make for her, she has recieved a seemingly private revelation, she speaks of "spiritual perfection" and that is worrying, because no-one can be perfect of their own merit, but that is for her to work out.it is important because the enemy of her soul can use a spiritual truth to decieve, (Peter was sifted by the devil) and this is powerful stuff, and there is not enough information in the Canonical Gospels to help people who have genuine theophanies, many of the important sayings of Jesus have been ommitted and personages demoted (John the Baptist) from the canonical Gospels, in respect to what Catherine wrote"Jesus, once we reach spiritual perfection, Jesus will come to take us with him, which will not require a physical death. John 8:51".

    Lets GO there Literally , "Truly, Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word he will never taste death"

    Imagine a scenario where a man meets all his enemies at once in a dark alley and one person says "So you think you are saved and God Is going to come down from Heaven and protect you from death" the victim answers" its not like "Pulp Fiction" you see "I" cannot die, this body will die and you will be held responsible for its death , but "I" cannot die, tomorrow is another day". So the BODY and the "I" are two seperate things, someone who is close to the fire can percieve it,whereas a man who has "lived a sumptious meaningless life, many friends, and many lifelong regrets" cannot.

    The reasonable answer is that belief engenders people "close to the fire" to engage with this Gospel and those outside it are in the dark, the closer one comes to the fire the greater the words Jesus speaks are understood.

    The Inner Child is a concept from the maturity of OT Judaism here is a transcript from the Thanksgiving Psalms of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it shows the birth of mans inner child and the circumstances that lead to its procreation, this text is from the Dead Sea Scrolls which needs to be contemplated.

    Psalm 5.

    They made my life a ship on the deep sea,
    like a fortified city circled by aggressors.
    I hurt like a woman in labor bearing her first child,
    whose belly pangs torture her in the crucible.
    Pains of Hell
    for a son come on the waves of death.
    She labors to bear a man,
    and among the waves of death she gives birth to a manchild,
    with pains of Hell.
    He springs from the crucible,
    O wondrous counselor with power :
    Yes, a man emerges from the waves..
    But she who carries dead seed in her womb
    suffers waves from a pit of horror.
    The foundations of the wall will rock
    like a ship on the face of the waters.
    Clouds will bellow.
    Those who dwell in the dust, like those on the sea,
    are terrified by the roar of the waters.
    All those wise men are like mariners on the deep:
    their wisdom confounded by the roaring seas.
    The abyss boils over the fountains of water.
    The seas rage.
    Hell opens, and arrows fly toward Heaven.
    Their eternal bars are bolted.

    When Catherine says “WE ALL LEAVE UNSEEN” she is saying thay the "I" has left the "crucible" and i can understand where that revelation comes from because i have had a revelation myself which i witness myself as a 12 year old child after death.

  53. TEXT OMITTED
    Hi Marianne

    Gregg said this on February 17, 2011 at 5:

    The Jewish people during the Old Covenant did not have Yeshua, and weren’t indwelt with the Holy Spirit, therefore it was necessary for them to have a set of Laws to utilize as a barometer in how to live a Godly life.

    Catherine said this on February 16, 2011 at 6:33 am

    In the next vision, one man remains, the other disappeared. I have interpreted my vision to mean, since the two men were IDENTICAL, one man being the OUTER (physical) and the other man being the INNER (spiritual). On another occasion, I awoke to a voice saying “WE ALL LEAVE UNSEEN”. Yet another clue. I believe given, these experiences, and my interpretation of the words of Jesus, once we reach spiritual perfection, Jesus will come to take us with him, which will not require a physical death. John 8:51

    Gregg is quite wrong to say that the OT Jews were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, they most certainly were, the law Was given specifically so that the Holy Spirit would make Judgement on Gods people, being as he was the principal witness against the accused. It is a salient fact that from the giving of the Law onwards the Jewish people came closer and closer to God (the Father) so much so that they Father and Son felt confident enough to engage personally with MAN, so that their righteousness could not be questioned being as the Son (who judges, the Father cannot judge) lived in a Man, and thought in man, that this final judgement of Man was something “other” than what humanity could contradict,or gainsay.

    Fact 1
    Exodus 20:4-6
    4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

    Fact 2
    Exodus 34:6-8
    6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, 7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.”
    8 Moses bowed to the ground at once and worshiped.

    Fact 1 establishes that God The Holy Spirit (The WORD) was working with God the Father in the redemption and salvation of men, and that (the world to Come) Paradise was inhabited by thousands of generations of those who kept faith with God, even in the OT times.
    for example Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness. Remember though that the redemptipn and salvation given by God the Father was different than that given by the Spirit of Truth, because God the Father loves the whole human race,and does 1* NOT judge, and the Spirit of Truth,Judges those who are in reciept of the Truth or who espouse to be believers, which is a more rigourous judgement, one must seperate different human experiences because they are all subjective experiences, we have a man who has lived a sumptious meaningless life, many friends, and many lifelong regrets who comes to a realisation shortly before death of how miserable his life is in the sight of God, and he repents, or he might be a victim of a murder. Each of these have not “washed their robes in the blood of the lamb” and so in the merciful justice of God and they are saved “from Judgement” and those who are “Near to the Fire” are saved “Through Judgement” the main fact is that it is Jesus Christ AND God the Father are working together, only a true reprobate is lost.

    Fact 2 We must think differently to understand this text, because it affects us all contemporaneously, even before we are born we are allocated to parents of whom we have no inkling of their acts and omissions before God, yet the facts are that we have values only God the Father can understand, it may be that each of us have an account with God in which he has expended graces and he is awaiting the harvest he has lavishly promoted.

    Catherine has a decision to make which no-one else can make for her, she has recieved a seemingly private revelation, she speaks of “spiritual perfection” and that is worrying, because no-one can be perfect of their own merit, but that is for her to work out.it is important because the enemy of her soul can use a spiritual truth to decieve, (Peter was sifted by the devil) and this is powerful stuff, and there is not enough information in the Canonical Gospels to help people who have genuine theophanies, many of the important sayings of Jesus have been omitted and personages demoted (John the Baptist) from the canonical Gospels, in respect to what Catherine wrote”Jesus, once we reach spiritual perfection, Jesus will come to take us with him, which will not require a physical death. John 8:51″.

    Lets GO there Literally , “Truly, Truly I say unto you, if anyone keeps my word he will never taste death”

    Imagine a scenario where a man meets all his enemies at once in a dark alley and one person says “So you think you are saved and God Is going to come down from Heaven and protect you from death” the victim answers” its not like “Pulp Fiction” you see “I” cannot die, this body will die and you will be held responsible for its death , but “I” cannot die, tomorrow is another day”. So the BODY and the “I” are two seperate things, someone who is close to the fire can percieve it,whereas a man who has “lived a sumptious meaningless life, many friends, and many lifelong regrets” cannot.

    The reasonable answer is that belief engenders people “close to the fire” to engage with this Gospel and those outside it are in the dark, the closer one comes to the fire the greater the words Jesus speaks are understood.

    The Inner Child is a concept from the maturity of OT Judaism here is a transcript from the Thanksgiving Psalms of the Dead Sea Scrolls, it shows the birth of man’s inner child and the circumstances that lead to its procreation, this text is from the Dead Sea Scrolls which needs to be contemplated.

    Psalm 5.

    They made my life a ship on the deep sea,
    like a fortified city circled by aggressors.
    I hurt like a woman in labor bearing her first child,
    whose belly pangs torture her in the crucible.
    Pains of Hell
    for a son come on the waves of death.
    She labors to bear a man,
    and among the waves of death she gives birth to a manchild,
    with pains of Hell.
    He springs from the crucible,
    O wondrous counselor with power :
    Yes, a man emerges from the waves..
    But she who carries dead seed in her womb
    suffers waves from a pit of horror.
    The foundations of the wall will rock
    like a ship on the face of the waters.
    Clouds will bellow.
    Those who dwell in the dust, like those on the sea,
    are terrified by the roar of the waters.
    All those wise men are like mariners on the deep:
    their wisdom confounded by the roaring seas.
    The abyss boils over the fountains of water.
    The seas rage.
    Hell opens, and arrows fly toward Heaven.
    Their eternal bars are bolted.

    When Catherine says “WE ALL LEAVE UNSEEN” she is saying thay the “I” has left the “crucible” and i can understand where that revelation comes from because i have had a revelation myself which i witness myself as a 12 year old child after death.

  54. explain

  55. In your first post above you state “not everyone belongs to God ahem cough and splutter.
    in your second post you dispute the Gospel whereby one soul is passed over in regards his intrinsic value to Our Father God, have I taken you by surprise, forget your Catholic roots and respond, reason and response please.

    • all believers belong to god……this not include every person on earth.

      no one soul is passed over for another…..the one taken is wicked, and the one that remains is righteous…..

      so they are not equal, and their fate depends on their own choices.

  56. Your point of view seems to be tribal, are you a victim of a Catholic cult whose outlook is malicious piety?
    I have explained my position unambiguously but you seem to be dependant on a blinkered catechesis.
    I would ask you to forget what you have learnt in seminary, dismiss all the Catholic propaganda and open your mind ,
    If you are angry with what i have said you should understand that you have NO right to be angry, and that to be angry at all places you in the wrong.

    I would like to discuss my theosophy with someone who can think outside of a rigorous Catholic catechesis, you should feel privileged that someone outside of you normal circle can connect with your mind and comprehend your actions, not your actions and omissions

    If the Word is in you you have been impregnated , if you reject the Word the inner child may die in you.

    • james

      I am not going to argue with you . I am not catholic.

      I just stated what the bible says.

      and I allow you your opinion.

      projecting anger on me won’t work….I have none in this discussion…

      however, I do not feel “privelged” to have you criticize me.

      that is silly.

  57. This means the JW bible is misleading.

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