Tribulation in Matthew and Revelation – 2

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Tribulation is defined here as the first 6 seals.

After that (trumpets and vials) is the wrath of God, and believers are gone by then.

Most eschatology puts the tribulation at the beginning of the 7 seals, and continues to the final 7th vial. That is, the entire set of events is

ALL the “Tribulation” and it ALL lasts 7 years.

This view is different.

It does make us need to question what events are actually part of the

Tribulation, and which aren’t.

I divide the events of Revelation into 2 periods:

Tribulation – saints and natural Israel present

Wrath – wicked only

This does not have to necessarily be correct, but it is the way I see it.

This is why I am giving specific definitions.

Many charts look like this:

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But I believe it will be more like this:

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Comparing Matthew 24 to the Book of Revelation, chapter 6, and 2 Thessalonians, we see each is discussing the same events.

Notice that the Tribulation ends at the 6th seal, with a dark sun and

moon, and a trumpet blast.

 

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Final Note

While it is my hope that we all escape all these things, it is also my sense that we must be prepared to have our faith tested, and to be here for a dangerous time of tribulation.

How many of us fit this description?

This is the profile of one who has works to back up their faith, and is patient and faithful through testing by Satan.

The person is an over comer.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things says he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that opens, and no man shuts; and shuts, and no man opens;

Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

What I call “sugar cookie Christians” – those nice, wonderful people who have had an easy, blessed life, with no problems, have a difficult time ahead, in my opinion.

They have not been tested yet, and found patient and faithful.

As sweet and innocent as they may be, I hope they will think about what might lie ahead of them.

Their innocence will be challenged.

My prayer is for ALL believers to fit into this Philadelphia Church profile, before the time of trouble begins.

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*** Note

I can email a copy of the Matthew vs. Revelation chart if it is too small to read for someone.

See also

Series on tribulation:

https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/?s=tribulation


86 Responses to “Tribulation in Matthew and Revelation – 2”

  1. Where are we now in your map diagram? Approximate estimation?

  2. I don’t really see why you think it should be the second timeline. The trumpets and seals could be within the final year of the tribulation.

  3. Time of wrath is made clear with Daniel’s metalman which replicates man’s earthly rule (Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.) Wrath clearly comes with the Return of the Stone which destroys earthly rule aka the Wicked and sets up His eternal kingdom. The ‘breaking in pieces’, chaff being carried away with the wind, and ‘no place was found for them’ is clearly the destruction of the wicked which is described in the Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials…last three Vials being the final Three Woes. The destruction (wrath) clearly does not happen until the very end of the ‘clay’ portion of man’s rule…at the very end. At this point the head of gold is history (Babylon), the breast/arms of silver (Medio/Persia), belly/thighs of brass (Greeks), legs of iron with feet part of iron and part clay (Rome) is the current earthy rule. And the Stone returns in the ‘clay’ portion at the end of the toes…not during the iron portion. Clay signifies that man’s earthly rule has deteriorated to the point of no strength…only dirt. This Goliath of a man represents carnal rule and the Stone takes him out. No coincidence that Goliath, too, was taken down with one Stone from the shepherd’s sling of David. Beautiful!

    • hi internet elias

      That is a good analogy and correlation to the stone – both with the statue and with goliath. Kudos!

    • Hi Internet Elios and all,

      If I may jump in here, the statue in Nebuchadnezzar’s dream represents all of the world ruling kindoms from the beginning of Babylon to the end which will be that ten toed kingdom made partly of iron and of clay. The iron and clay mixed together represents a divided kingdom that will be partly strong (Iron) and partly brittle (clay) and that because the people will be a mixture and therefore, it will not have the strength of pure iron as when Rome was at its peak (Dan.2:41-44).

      Therefore, when the rock that is cut out of the mountain without human hands (Christ) falls on the feet of the statue, it represents the end of human governments, which is the symbolism behind the statue crumbling like chaff on the thresing floor and being blown away by the wind without leaving a trace and which ushers in the end of the age. Currently Rome is not the world ruling kingdom, but that ten toed kingdom is on its way. The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings and their kingdoms who give the beast their power and authority as described in Rev.17:12-13. And so, the world will be divided into ten regions with the beast ruling and with these ten kings under him and all other authority under them. Then of course we cannot forget about the second beast, that false prophet who will be performing miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast (2 Thes.2:4, Rev.13:11-14). His purpose for perforing these signs will be to give credibility to the first beast, that man of lawlessness who will be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God.

  4. P.S. Personally, I believe we are seeing the ever quickening alignment of nations and principalities that will facilitate the ten-toe portion of rule. WE likely are already in the iron portion of the ten toes. The clay portion of rule shown at the end of the ten toes will come when the ten ‘iron’ rulers give their power and authority to Antichrist which is the Tribulation (Six Seals). It is at the end of the ten-toe clay portion that the Stone returns (Second coming) and the Seventh Seal becomes operational (Seven Trumpets/Seven Vials of wrath). Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.’

  5. …your “sugar cookies christians” maybe what america is now…but the bible was not written just for america….the whole world suffers for Christ…have you seen THe Voice of the Martyrs???
    … i do see the denial or avoidence in the church today that the Lord is coming back soon….if i bring it up people look at me like i am crazy!
    …people all over are praying for revival….my prayer is that the HOLY SPIRIT will convict people of the TRUTH that the Lord has hidden in their heart…we need to come against the evil one who is putting the church to sleep and leading her to hell.
    …Christ sits at the right hand of God and has been given ALL authority and power…and we have that power and authority here and now, but the evil one has lied and preached in our churchs that miracles were only in the Lord’s day not for now.
    …pray specifically for the scales to be removed from the churches eyes and ears….that our hardened hearts would be opened to the TRUTH.
    …because of Christ we are a light in the world…so let your light of Christ’s good news shine where ever you go including the troubles that are coming soon.

  6. The ten toes of iron, and clay could be ten economic regions of the world the globalists desire. We are watching north Africa, and Syria be pressured by the Muslim Brotherhood backed by NATO’s power. Also, known as global government.

    The so called rebels in north Africa, and Syria are Muslims. I do not know how the ten regions will look, but I bet the pan-Arab union is what we are seeing form with the Muslim Brotherhood ruling behind the throne.

    With a collapse of the monetary system, we may see a one world currency with certain areas made to unionize. For example, the north American union of Mexico, United States, and Canada. Otherwise, some countries would not have the assets needed to stay afloat.

    Central Banks do not have National interests. So, we see the American tax payer robbed to keep the global economy going after the housing bubble where those who had no income, or were illegal allowed to get a house. Who held the paper? Other countries, not the United States.

    I am not invited to the Bilderburg meetings, but Gov. Rick Perry has gone. I wonder if the agenda Da’One, Billery at State, and the Bull Dike at Homeland inSecurity are a part of, is the same one Perry is aware of.

    We will soon see. This last global government without G-d is being allowed by G-d the father to show he controls all things. Humans have reaped the wind. Now comes the whirlwind as it was right before Noah’s flood.

    Do good works, and love one another, but remember only the accepting the blood of Christ as payment for your sins is what keeps you from being weighed by the law of G-d.

    The above last compound sentence is hate speech in the New World Order. Why, because I stated there is only one way to Heaven.

  7. Leatherneck, the ten toes of iron and clay are economic regions…kingdoms (nations)…rulers. . Mystery Babylon which is symbolic of all that is earthy, greedy, materialistic, lusty, and ungodly is the type for down and dirty…dog eat dog…every man for himself…sadistic greed. It’s citizens lay up for themselvs only those ‘treasures where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.’ And they are the thieves…lol. But be encouraged while watching the economic shifts of today. God forordained everything that will be as a result of His immense and perfect foreknowledge. He alone is at the control panel. He alone restrains or withdraws restraint of evil. He set the End from the Beginning. The battle is the Lord’s. I take great comfort in the Revelations 17:17 scripture which reminds us that even the evil is permitted within God’s time, purpose, and permission. Battle is already won. And nothing will change that. So I am not concerned over the increase in ungodliness except for the souls of the ungodly. And as the days grow increasingly ‘clayish’ we become stronger for the tribulation. Like the Christians in China and other persecuted ones around the world, we Americans will be given grace ‘sufficient’ to endure to the end…whether we live or whether we die. Even the death of the precious saints is under God’s control. He rescues to Himself those ‘(Of whom the world was not worthy:) Heb 11:38.

    2 Cor 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair

  8. Marianne, Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ,

    This message is for all who are living in the USA. Augusto sent this message today. I don’t know if all of you listen to his radio broadcast or not.

    “Dear Friends,

    For the last three days I have been under deep troubling intercessions, similar to what I have experienced in the past. During my intercessions I have sensed great loss of life. Thousands if not millions of lives are at stake. I am calling upon all intercessors to deep non-stop intercessory warfare. Those of you that can fast, it would be an appropiate thing to do at this time.

    I have just received word from a friend of mine that according to a credible source, a major nuclear terrorist attack may take place around 9/11/11 with as many as five U.S. cities targeted. This is the reason for the massive troop movement within the country in recent weeks. Also received word from another friend of mine several days ago through a dream/vision about a massive missile strike against one of the states in the nation resulting in millions dead.

    Need to pray for these plans of the enemy to be foiled. The bloodshed and loss of life could be staggering, with the the possibility of martial law being implemented in many parts of the nation and total collapse of the economy. Please do not take this lightly. This will impact us all living in America, as well as other parts of the world. Let the Lord lead you, but pray on behalf of those who live in the affected areas who are believers in Christ Yeshua, and those who may not know how to pray, that angelic reinforcements be dispatched to foil the enemy attack.

    Shalom,

    Augusto Perez”

    God bless us all.

  9. So very glad you brought this topic up i think it is on every body’s mind.

    my prayer is that when He does come to receive us in the air that all of us

    will be counted worthy to go be with Him forever and ever. AMEN

  10. Not familar with Augusto Perez but for me it is very important not to be tempted to fear. We surely are living in fast changing times but Rev. 7:3 encourages me that we will not see nuclear warfare/vegetative destruction before the return of Christ. ‘Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.’

    The above is a promise from God that when Christ ‘seals’ the Church (Sixth Seal) there will be green trees and green grass across the globe.

    Green vegetation, trees, etc. remain until Rev. 8:7 where 1/3 of the trees and all green grass is burned up by way of fiery wrath of the First Trump (Seventh Seal).

    Too, Perez warns of impending economic callapse, martial law, and so forth. That could happen. But, again, certain scripture reassures me that possibly will not happen. Rev. 13:17 promises that buying and selling continues until the Second Coming. Seemingly, according to Rev. 17:4 affluent materialism will increase and become even more foundational for the lusty world. ‘And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:’ World wide monetary system……yes…since under the final government one needs permission (‘mark’/government ID) to buy and sell. Yet God sends manna. And clothes last more than forty years…lol (Deut 29:5 And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot.). Thus, when we can no longer buy nor sell…there still is no need to return to house to pack or gather goods when fleeing to the ‘wilderness’ (divine protection).

    And as for me, I depend more and more on the following recommendation from the Father via Phil 4:8: ‘Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.’

    • Internet elias,

      I am wondering what makes you believe that the sealing the servants of God in their foreheads, has anything to do specifically with the Church within the book of Revelation?

      ” And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.”
      Ezekiel 9:4.

      “Saying , Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.” Revelation 7:3

      “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.” Revelation 9:4.

      Who are these with the seal in their foreheads?

      Revelation 14:1 tells us, ”
      And I looked , and, lo , a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.”

      So who are those 144,000?

      “And I heard the number of them which were sealed : and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Revelation 7:4.

      Regarding Revelation 13:17 which you quote for your reassurance, promises that buying and selling continues until the Second Coming.

      “And he causeth all, both small and great , rich and poor , free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand , or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell , save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.” Revelation 13:16,17.

      What happens to those that take the mark of the beast so that they can continue to buy and sell?

      “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:11.

      That doesn’t sound that reassuring to me?

      Be Blessed

      • Alienated, I’ve just seen your questions/comment two years later. Time flies. Concerning ‘what happens to those that take the mark of the beast so they can continue to buy and sell?’ – see ‘Mark of the Beast: God’s Decision at internetelias.wordpress.com for my full explanation.

  11. Marianne

    “it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.”

    So I make it seven years in total. You are waiting for the fall for the start aren’t you??

    • hi Mick

      I am waiting for the fall to see WHAT starts.

      I think something should happen if the USA and UN vote against Israel in September, and divide its land, giving much more to the Palestinians.

      That will begin what is predicted in Joel 3:2:

      I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and [for] my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

      What we sow, we reap.

  12. Hi Marianne, I had a dream last week about Israel. I’m still praying for more understanding of it. What I do know is that something is happening in Israel having to do with some kind of poision in the air and/or water. Some sort of bacteria but the people of God will not be affected. Let you know more as the Lord leads. Darlene

  13. yes i to am waiting for dec 21 2012 but in the mean time i am trying my best to perpare for it i see changes in my own house hold please help me pray about it

  14. before we except Christ as are personal lord and savior we have no problems because Satan already as us but when we due is ` when we have everything coming at us i live with a dear friend i call sister Ive had problems all a long for years the times we live in now fill so different the cost of food,gas, just bills in general i sense theirs something coming down upon this country and its not good

    • hi flybird

      You are right about this country. It is so much trouble that it is now in the news, not just bible prophecy. I understand the stress of bills. I have them too. All we can do is the best we can, and give it all to God to provide. If things are to be over soon, then only He can provide for us until it is time for him to come and get us.

  15. Hi Marianne and all,

    We are living in exciting times, we as christians need to wait on the Lord and rise up together all across the globe. Bible prophecies are unfolding right in front of us, we don’t have any time left. I personally don’t really know how the prophecies will unfold according to the charts but having the Lord speak to us here in PNG everyday about the times and seasons and what we have to do is enough for me. To move when God says move is really exciting because you know you’re where He wants you to be doing what He wants you to do. I can confidently say both light and darkness mean business, more than ever before in the history of this universe. So for all the “sugar cookie christians” swimming in the shallow waters it’s way past your time to swim out into the deep. God is good, see what HE is doing in this time and age and move with Him.. Blessed be the name of the Lord, now and forevermore.. Amen.. Whoooo, I am excited. For me it’s really real and I pray all of God’s people will carry this and run with it. Glory to God in the highest.

    • hi Grace

      Good to hear from you. yes, we are excited here too. We all need to help the sugar cookies get their feet wet. They will be fine and will do well. We all work together for the same glorious purpose.

  16. FlyBird and Marianne both says “I understand the stress of bills. I have them too.” I think, that is its own Nuclear Misile against people in USA.Why US solders are in Afganistan and IRAQ. Cost?

    • Sunimal

      Our government does much more than support a war. It has many foolish spending programs that deny the average American their money, wasting it on things that benefit groups outside of the United States that do not care about us. Obama just passed a bill to bring HAMAS terrorists over here as refugees so he can spend billions of dollars on them – free food, housing, medical, education, etc. He has other 2.5 trillion in stupid American programs that benefit only the elite.

      • Hallo Marianne, he is throwing money in the bottomless pit of Africa while the people of USA are sufferring. Even ou own goverment is doing it. We have millions of people that is living under the bread line but our goverment is giving money to Zimbabwe, Zwaziland and other African countries to sustain the corrumpt leaders.

        And the taxes is increasing. They are looking for more ways to tax the people. We are already get R4.00 out of every R10.00 we earns. That doesn’t even pay for a bread anymore.

        • Alida

          It seems like our leaders care more about their politics than their own people, doesn’t it?

          We need to pray for protection from our own leadership. Very sad for all of us.

  17. Marianne

    It has already been sown. Hence the biblical warnings.

  18. Hi Marianne and all,

    Marianne, where you say “Tribulation is defined here as the first 6 seals” I am assuming that you are inferring that the first 6 seals are tribulation that the church will go through and after the 6th seal, then the wrath of God begins, is that correct. In other words you’re saying, seals 1-6 equals tribulation and then the last seal plus the trumpets and bowls eqaul wrath. Please list the reasons as to why you believe this.

    Thanks!

    • hi dmcal

      I just matched up the seals with matthew 24…and since Jesus said we would see him after the tribulation, i just came to this conclusion.

      I guess you could say I am pre-wrath.

      • So, you don’t believe that 25% of the earth’s population being killed at the 4th seal by war, famine, plague and by the wild beasts of the earth as belonging to God’s wrath? Remember, Jesus is the one opening the seals, which means that He is responsible for what is taking place on the earth, wich would show that the seals are also included as being the wrath of God. Tribulation usually comes at the hands of men with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background. Wrath comes directly from God. As I said, the Lamb (Jesus) is the one opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and after that the bowls.

        I don’t believe that the seals are meant to be divided up partly between tribulation and wrath, but that the seals, trumpets and bowls represent the Day of the Lord in its totality. I believe that the announcement “The great day of their wrath has come” begins at the opening of the first seal. I believe that these are the events of which Jesus said,

        “Pray always that you will be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

        The seals, trumpets and bowls is what Jesus is rescuing believers from.

        • hi dmcal

          You may be right. I just considered this view as well.

          Even though the wrath is to come, saints have had to endure Antichrist figures and false teachers, wars, famines, pestilences, and martyrdom for 2000 years, and we are all still here. No rapture to escape all that.

          There are Christians right now being beheaded for their faith, yet there is no rapture for them. Are they going through tribulation or wrath? The saints in Egypt and Pakistan are going through tribulation right now. They have seen war and famine and pestilence, and their leaders are antichrist.

          And for 2000 years, have the saints been enduring tribulation or wrath? Did the first seal get broken 2000 years ago?

          Jesus said in this life, we would have tribulation, so I am just looking at past and current history, and seeing what saints have already been through, and are currently going through. It all matches with the seals.

          So even though the wrath may include the seals, and we who are still here may escape them via a rapture, it does not erase what is true about past or current history.

          Just my thoughts. be blessed.

          • Hi Marianne and all,

            You said:
            “Even though the wrath is to come, saints have had to endure Antichrist figures and false teachers, wars, famines, pestilences, and martyrdom for 2000 years, and we are all still here. No rapture to escape all that.”

            Response:
            Yes, this is true, but not 25% of the earth’s population in a relatively short period of time, as well as the rest of the plagues. Remember what the Scripture says regarding this time period:

            “For then there will be great distress UNEQUALED from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.”

            I don’t believe that the world has ever witnessed 25% of its population gone in a short period of time as will be the case when this happens. The purpose for the seals, trumpets and bowls is two-fold, one, for God to pour out His wrath and two, to get the attention of the inhabitants of the earth to repent. These plagues are meant to decimate the population of the earth in fulfillment of the following prophecy through Isaiah regarding the day of the Lord, which says:

            “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Isa.13:12)

            And regarding the same time period Jesus said:

            “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” (Mt.24:22)

            So the idea in regards to the seals, trumpets and bowls, which are the wrath of God, is that these events happen like a woman in birth pangs, that is, as they begin, the events get closer together and more intense as they go. The 4th seal and the 6th trumpet combined equal 50% of the earth’s population dead and that is not counting the resulting fatalities from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets and that because it is not listed. Neither are the percentages of fatalities listed as a result of the bowl judgments. These events are not your typical wars,famine,weather disasters, etc. These events will be unprecidented and God initiated and the result will be the decimation of the earth’s population.

            In regards to your question, “And for 2000 years, have the saints been enduring tribulation or wrath? Did the first seal get broken 2000 years ago?

            Answer:
            From the inception of the church, it has been enduring natural tribulation that Jesus said we would have in the world and that by man and the powers of darkness. Jesus said, you will have trial and tribulation. He did not say that we would suffer the wrath of God, in fact, he said just the opposite, that is, we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. Neither the 1st seal nor any of trumpets could have already been opened or blown and that because, as I said earlier, the result of the seals, trumpets and bowls for the most part, will decimate the population of the earth. If the meaning of the 4th seal was that 25% of the earth’s population was to be killed over a period of 2000 years, we would not notice it and that because it would be spread acorss a vast amount of time and would not fulfill God’s prophecy regarding making man scarcer than pure gold. The results of the seals, trumpets and bowls is to fulfill that prophecy and that can’t happen if you have these plagues taking place over a 2000 year period. For currently, there are 6.5 billion people on the earth and therefore, if 25% of the earth’s population had been killed over that period of time we would not have even noticed it. As I said, the idea is that these plagues will be completed in a relatively short period of time, an unequaled time of distress since the beginning of the world. And if you are saying “Uneqaled” then this would infer that these events will be unprecidented and will have never been experienced in such magnitude.

            You also said that the saints have had to endure Antichrist figures and false teachers, wars, famines, pestilences, and martyrdom for 2000 years, and we are all still here. No rapture to escape all that.

            Answer:
            You have to remember that, those events are natural trial and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. Where those seals, trumpets and bowls will be the wrath of God being poured out directly upon unrepentant, Christ rejecting people.
            True believers have already repented and continue with a prepentant heart and are seeking Christ daily. What purpose would God have for putting his church through the seals, trumpets and bowls, pouring out His wrath upon those who belong to Him?

            Understand that the “Day of the Lord” with all of its plagues, is different from the trials and tribulations that the church and individual believers have endured throughout the church period. This is what Jesus rescued us from, that and condemning judgment.

            I hope that this sheds a little more light on the subject.

            Yours in Christ

  19. And I held when he had opened the SIXTH seal ….””For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Revelation 6:12-17″

    Come on dmcal …”I believe that the announcement “The great day of their wrath has come” begins at the opening of the first seal.” Really Why?

  20. Hi Mick and all,

    The reason I believe this is, one, because of what I already mentioned in my post to Marianne and that is because Jesus is the one opening the seals, which means that He is the one initiating them. And two, 25% of the earth’s population will be killed as a result of seals 1-4. I believe that it is erroneous to interpret that the wrath only begins after the announcement at the 6th seal where it is stated that “The great day of their wrath has come.” The error is that, because the verse says, “Has come” that people interpret that to mean that the wrath follows the announcement, but I believe that the announce also encompasses what previously took place with the seals as well. I believe that when it says, “The great day of their wrath has come” that it does not only refer to the wrath that is to follow, but also refers to what has already begun and is going to continue. Here is a good example of what I am talking about. In Rev.11:18 the angel blows the 7th trumpet and John hears loud voices in heaven saying,

    “The nations were angry and YOUR WRATH HAS COME.”

    So, the verse above is another place where it is stated that the “wrath of God has come.” Now, using the same logic as some have used, does this mean that the wrath follows after that announcement as it does at the 6th seal or is it referring to the wrath that had already previously taken place? The answer would have to include all the plagues that had already taken place. And so I believe that it is just an error in how people interpret that phrase, which is why they exclude seals 1 thru 6 as belonging to God’s wrath.

    There is yet another verse that pretty much states the same thing by the first of three angels in Rev.14:6-7 which says:

    “He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment HAS COME.”

    Again, do we interpret this phrase to mean that the wrath follows the announcement or that it encompasses the wrath that will have previously taken place? It would have to include what has already happened up to that point, for now we have 3 different places where this phrase is mentioned. On top of that, the wrath is going to continue from this last announcement with the seven bowl judgments, which are said to complete God’s wrath.

    So to recap, I believe that when the announcement at the 6th seal is made that says “The great day of their wrath has come,” that the announcement also includes the fatalities resulting from the previous seals of war, famine and plague that had previously taken place. The very fact that Lamb is the one opening the seals would also suggest that the seals are also included as belonging to God’s wrath.

    Personally, I believe that the 1st seal is representing the man of lawlessness, that beast and therefore, the 1st seal has not yet been opened and that because this antichrist has not yet been revealed and furthermore, I don’t believe that the church will even be here to see him.

    I hope that this has given you some insight or at least something to consider.

    Yours in Christ

  21. For me..the time of wrath is made clear by looking backward at Noah and Lot. Noah and family entered the Ark and God shut the door (rapture..lol). Then the wicked were destroyed by the deluge of wrath. …and there wasn’t but one boat load…lol. Lot and family were zapped from Sodom (rapture) just before God rained the wrath of fire and brimstone upon it….and there wasn’t but one zapping…lol.

    Seals 1-5 are the turbulent troubles of the latter days. Sixth Seal sees the gathering of the church. Seventh Seal reveals the fulness..start to finish…of God’s wrath on those left behind. Seventh Seal encompasses Seven Trumpets and Seven Vials. All these ‘sevens’ are one Wrath. Sixth Vial is equal to Rev. 14:19 -20 which is the completion of God’s wrath on the tares/wicked/satan/demons…..’blood to the horses bridles.’ Seventh Vial just says ‘it is done!’

    1 Thes 5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    • Hi elias,

      Regarding “And there wasn’t but one zapping…lol.”

      There are 4 separate resurrections still to come including the two Harpazo’s that fall under the banner of “First Resurrection.”

      1. Resurrection and catching away of the church
      (1 Thes.4:13-18)

      2. The Male Child Ibid 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

      3. Two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

      4. Great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

      Every resurrection or catching away that takes place prior to the resurrection of the lost dead at the end of the thousand years falls under the banner of the first resurrection. The only resurrection that the second death has power over are those who are rerurrected to stand at the great white throne judgment, which is at the end of the thousand years, which is the resurrection of the unjust.

      These are just the ones that are mentioned. There may be others pertaining to those who die during the thousand years who remain faithful to Christ.

  22. dmcal

    When the people say “the day of the wrath of the lamb has come” I suspect that they have not missed the first five seals and decide to announce the day of the wrath over half way through it ie after six seals. I suspect that they are genuinely announcing the day of the wrath of the lamb at the sixth seal. But you are therefore correct that the first five seals are the wrath of the dragon (under God’s control). After this period the wrath of the lamb begins and is therefore announced at the sixth seal. Seems reasonable?

    • Hi Mick,

      I think one of the reasons why many problems occur, is simply because we end up establishing our beliefs based solely upon what is literally written within scripture, and correlating that within our limited understanding.

      What I mean by that is, that many don’t appear to be able to go beyond their 9 dots intellectually, to formulate a logical and rational conclusion to what much of what the Word is actually conveying.

      For example, since we live in a physical dimension in which time itself is a relative component that we deal with on a constant basis, many will associate their concept of time and apply that limitation to scripture, and by doing so, forgetting or not taking into account that time itself, has no relevance within the spiritual realm of heaven whatsoever, or that neither is God limited, (as we are) by the concept of time.
      Because of time, we within our dimensional realm require the necessity of sequence. A, B, C or 1, 2, 3 etc.
      Though this is a difficult concept for us to comprehend fully, the fact remains that God is not restrained whatsoever by time.

      So when Don states what he says regarding “the hour of judgment has come” or ” your wrath has come” which is quoted from different chapters within the book of Revelation, if you dismiss the necessity of time or that of sequence, it confirms what he is saying as being then, a logical and well reasoned conclusion.

      The same could be understood within the phrase “first resurrection”, which is stated within Revelation 20:5.
      Many simply apply their limited sequential concept of the word “first” to mean that nothing prior to that regarding a resurrection has occurred. Where scripture clearly states that it has already occurred at least once within Matthew 27:52,53. where many of of the Saints arose out of the graves after Yeshua’s resurrection.
      So I would agree fully with Don’s interpretation above regarding the “first resurrection” for it is a belief that I hold personally as well.

      The Word itself is spiritual, and I believe that we are in error if we then limit it to the confines of our physical dimensions when we attempt to understand what it is that it is saying.

      Be Blessed

      • Hey Alienated,

        Well said Alienated. It is always refreshing and strengthening when others have arrived at the same conclusions based on Scripture. My point simply put as you know is that, if people interpret the announcement of God’s wrath at the 6th seal as only referring to everything that takes place afterwards, then would we not have to use the same logic regarding Rev.11:18? For the those voices are making the same announcement as was made in the 6th seal and if that were true, would we not have to then say that the wrath starts after the announcement in Rev.11:18?

        This was in fact my point in that, if the phrase infers that wrath must follow the announcement and cannot include the plagues resulting from the previous seals, then if we apply the same thinking towards Rev.11:18 at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, then nothing that took place prior to that announcement could be considered as wrath either becasue the same phrase is being used, yet we know that cannot be true because prior to the announcement in Rev.11:18 six of the trumpet judgments will have taken place. Therefore, the phrase, “Your/Their wrath has come” cannot be restricted to only pertaining to what follows the announcement, but must include the previous events as well as those that are currently taking place and those that are still to come. In the same manner we would have to also apply this thinking in regards to the angels announcement in Rev.14:7. If I could paraphrase I would say, “For the great day of their wrath has already begun and will be on-going.”

        I know that my explanation is overkill and I know that you have the same understanding, but I just wanted to drive the point home for everyone else as to how people interpret these phrases, such as the one you mentioned regarding the “First Resurrection.” As you mentioned, when people read these words, they get the idea of a one time event or interpret “First” as meaning “Only.” yet as we have seen, Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, which will be followed by the resurrection and catching away of the church, followed by the two witnesses, follow by the Male Child who is snatched up and then last mentioned is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints. These all take place at different times, but because of the misinterpretation of “First Resurrection” people try to cram them all into the same event taking place in Rev.20:4, which is impossible!

        In regards to the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 I might also add that there is no harpazo mentioned with this Resurrection, that is, there is only a resurrection of the dead and the living are not mentioned as being changed in a twinkling of an eye here as with the 1 Thes.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:51 account. And we know that the great tribulation saints are in view here because it is said of them that they were beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and also because they would not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark. This information tells us when, why and who. For those who are beheaded for resisting the beast puts them in the time period of the last 3 1/2 years when the beast will be proclaiming himself to be God and where it is said that at that time he will make war against the saints and conquer them and therefore, this is in fact the same group of people.

        Okay, I’m done ranting now

        Yours in Christ

    • Hi Mick and all,

      You said:
      “But you are therefore correct that the first five seals are the wrath of the dragon (under God’s control). After this period the wrath of the lamb begins and is therefore announced at the sixth seal.”

      So, how do you come to the conclusion that the first five seals are the wrath of the dragon? There is nothing in the Scripture to support this. The seals, trumpets and bowls are all initiated by the Lamb, therefore, they all belong to the wrath of God, which is the Day of the Lord. Everything that the beast does and everything that takes place within the seals, trumpets and bowls is apart of God’s plan. There is no dividing up of wrath of the beast and wrath of God, as it is all God’s doing and the beast and all that he does are simply apart of the whole plan. There is no reason to divide up the first five or six seals from the rest of the trumpetsand bowl plagues. I bid that all of the seals belong to the wrath God and the Lamb, and that becasue Jesus is the one opening the seals, ergo, He is the one initiating the events of war, famine and plague. The beast and the false prophet are just being used to fulfill God’s purpose and they will do nothing that God does not want them to do and we know what their end is at the return of Christ. This is all God’s wrath and they are apart of it.

  23. dmcal…I see and understand the points you make concerning events according to the doctrine of the Rapture. And you are correct about the 4 resurrections/ascentions. But since I am purely…100%…totally convinced for the gathering of all the saints…both the alive and the resurrected dead at the universally visible Second Coming in the clouds…I insist they all happen at one time…during the Sixth Seal after which starts the Seventh Seal and wrath on those left behind. Your 2, 3, and 4 collectively are …1. Resurrection and catching away of the church.

    1. Resurrection and catching away of the church
    (1 Thes.4:13-18)

    Includes all of Israel and all gentiles who are of the faith of Abraham…144,00 and a multitute no man can number

    2. The Male Child Ibid 144,000 (Rev.12:5)

    The male child of Rev.12.5 is the incarnate Christ …Word (Rod of Iron) who was born of woman and who was ‘caught up to God and his throne’ by way of death, burial, and Resurrection.

    The 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel Rev. 7:4-8. And… critically important but seldom mentioned is the multitude no man could number seen with the 144,000 as they were sealed who were, too,…sealed at the same time … Rv. 4:9. These are the same ones being ‘sealed’ /claimed/posessed by the owner in the Sixth Seal.

    3. Two witnesses (Rev.11:11)

    Built into all of the above is Elias and Moses, the two witnesses, who have just finished supernaturally preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom …Matt 24:14…to the ‘cut off’ remnant of Israel ..Isa 6:10 …who are converted and who give ‘glory to the God of heaven’ as the earth is already shaking. And as Matt 24:14 promised ‘when this gospel of the kingdom is preached as a witness to all nations (deaf/blind remnant of Israel last to hear)…the end will come.’ It is happening now…here in Rev. 11:13 as the ‘remnant’ are converted/healed/godliness taken away from Jacob. They are the ‘fulness of the gentiles’. The earth is already shaking from the Second Coming…..at the same time the two witnesses are ‘ascending up hither’ to join the returning Christ in the clouds. Elias is the proclaimed forerunner and he just ‘foreran’ to the same group that could not (God blinded them) see him embodied as John the Baptist at the First Coming. Matt 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.’

    4. Great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

    The great tribulation saints are the same as all the above who are alive and remain at His coming. The significance of one boat load and one zapping is that ….likewise…there is only one gathering of the Church. The wicked outside the Ark who screamed and begged Noah to open the door are the same wicked of Revelations crying ‘ to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:’ God never opened the Ark door. There was not a second train out of Sodom. The Door never opened for the five foolish virgins who were told, ‘depart, I never knew you.’ When the Church leaves this world…Grace is over. Many contend that only Jacob will be here for the Great Tribulation…I say if anyone gets to go first…it would be them….lol.

    dmcal, please know I am not contending with you…quiet the opposite. I don’t contend…I just believe what I believe and I let others do the same. I am only expressing the reasons for my belief. I appreciate the obvious intensity with which you study the Word.

    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

    • Hello again,

      Regarding:
      “I insist they all happen at one time…during the Sixth Seal”

      My first question would be, where in the Scripture is there any indication that a resurrection and catching away is taking place at the 6th seal? As there is no mention of this event taking place. Only that people want to get out God’s view and that because heaven has been opened, rolled back like a scroll and they can see him, which is why they want the mountains and the rocks to fall on them to hide them from his face. That the resurrection and catching away takes place here is completely assumed, as it literally says nothing in regards to this event. The coming in the clouds of Mt.24 is speaking of the end of the age when Jesus returns to set up his millennial kingdom and not the resurrection and catching away of the church, for if we were to apply this to the church, then that would mean that we would have gone through the entire wrath of God. Also, the verse in Mt.24:30 is not the resurrection and catching away, for according to 1 Thes.4:13-18, we are not gathered by angels, but meet the Lord himself meets us in the air.

      • dmcal

        jesus never spoke of a rapture, only that he would return for us.

        he also said we would see him after the tribulation, not before.

        maybe angels are not mentioned, or maybe they are, but this does not indicate 2 separate events……maybe all this is one event – rapture = second coming.

        maybe the scriptures are just presenting different aspects of the same event.

        • Hi Marianne,

          If I may reply to your comment as well here.

          Many years ago Solomon wrote;
          “To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.”
          And if I could be so bold, (simply because scripture would more than imply that the following inclusion would also indeed be true), I would add to the many “time to be’s” …… a TIME for REVELATION.

          The word “Revelation” is translated from the transliterated Greek “Apokalupsis” and it’s definitions are, “laying bear, making naked, a disclosure of truth, instruction concerning things before unknown, used of events by which things or states or persons hitherto withdrawn from view are made visible to all.”

          I believe that you would agree that from the dawning of time, God has revealed more of Himself, on His time frame, to those who He chooses to fulfill His specific purpose. As well collectively, as time has drawn closer to what we refer to as end times, we have increased in our understanding also.

          You say above,”Jesus never spoke of a rapture, only that he would return for us.”

          Well, my response to that would be, Yeshua never spoke about all that He revealed to John that he wrote in the Book of Revelation when He was here on the earth either. Do we then discard all of that?

          Both Don and myself have expressed our view points regarding all of this on your “Rapture and the Church of Philadelphia” page. The same as John was caught up to heaven (Rev.4:1) where Yeshua then revealed to him certain specific information, the same was done with Paul (2 Corinthians 12.). The circumstances are identical.

          In speaking of the “gathering together” or what we commonly refer to theologically as the “rapture” , Paul states himself within verse (15) of 1 Thessalonians 4 as to Who provided him with this knowledge by saying; “For this we say unto you by the WORD OF THE LORD, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.”

          This phrase above has the same linguistic meaning, and is to be understood exactly the same way as you would understand the phrase that John says within Revelation 1:1a.
          ” The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.” Though the wording itself may be different, the fact that both authors are revealing the “Source” of their knowledge can not be overlooked.

          Above you say, “He also said we would see him after the tribulation, not before.”

          I would have to disagree with that particular comment, and would argue that Yeshua at no time stated that He would see us only AFTER the tribulation, or that it has been expressed anywhere within scripture that He would not return prior or before the time of judgment. I attempted to share my views regarding this to you within a private email correspondence, yet I realize that it sometimes difficult to let go of our preconceived beliefs.

          Perhaps you didn’t bother to read one of my recent posts regarding the topic of the word “elect” due to its length? So I will for your convenience, re-post only the relevant portion below for you, with the hopes that you will again consider its content, and as well, the context that is expressed throughout the whole chapter of Matthew 24, as to being a warning and a return of Yeshua for the time of judgment, rather than a time for blessing.

          In respects to Matthew 24:31 and the word “elect” utilized there.

          Within the Greek language there is only one biblical word to utilize to represent those that are “chosen by God” and that is the transliterated word “eklektos”. Within the Bible this word is always translated into English as “elect”. What many fail to take into consideration, is that this would be the only word that could be utilized whether those that were being referred to were “chosen by God” for either blessings, or for punishment.

          So if you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for blessings, the word “eklektos” would be utilized. If on the other hand, you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for punishment, the word “eklektos” would again also be utilized. The way that one would decipher as to which “good or bad” would be applicable, would be from the content and context of the surrounding text itself.

          If we look at the text from say Matthew 24: 27 on for example, we can see that Yeshua is speaking of His triumphant return with His angels. In verse (28) He reveals to us a very significant clue. “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” And in verse (40 & 41) He solidifies that previous clue with, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left.”

          For those that are familiar with the parable relating to the “Wheat and the Tares” the context now becomes quite obvious. The “elect” that will be gathered by His angels are those that are the “Tares” and are “chosen by God” for punishment, immediately after the tribulation when the time for judgment commences.

          “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:38,39.

          Be Blessed

          • allienated

            I do not see how your response is a response to what I said.

            I said

            “He also said we would see him after the tribulation, not before.”

            you said

            “I would argue that Yeshua at no time stated that He would see us only AFTER the tribulation”

            this is Matthew 24:29, and is referenced above.

            • Marianne,

              The verses you would be eluding to would consist of Matthew 24:29-31, which would contain the word “after” and then being followed up with the gathering by the angels of the “elect”.

              I have addressed this for you twice within the last two days here on your site, and previously during our email correspondence a couple of days ago. It is my contention that the word “elect” in verse 31 is NOT referring to the church whatsoever, but is instead referring to the “chosen of God” for punishment. The whole chapter is a warning from the Lord consisting of fear, doom and judgment, not blessings.

              If you were to refer to your own page regarding “One Taken and One Left” then take into consideration verses 28 & 40 of Matthew 24, and how they refer to verse 31 in context, I would think that you would be able to formulate the connection?

              I understand that for many years you have correlated the word elect to have only one specific meaning.
              Which is that of being representative of the church. However as I have attempted to explain twice here for you and to others, is that the true definition of the word “Eklektos” is “chosen” or “chosen by God” and that word would be utilized whether a subject was chosen for blessing, or for punishment.

              So I stand with my initial response.

              Be Blessed

              • Alienated

                There was one main question the apostles asked Jesus, When will these things be? an what will be the sign of your coming? (Matt 24:3)

                Jesus then explains the end times, which includes taking the tares before the wheat, as in Taken, left behind………During the first 4 seals, many die, or are “taken”…

                the description of the tribulation is concluded with verse 28 in Matthew.

                Then he says…..

                Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

                this is the 6th seal of rev

                then he says (v 30-31):

                And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

                And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

                I interpret HIS elect as those belonging to HIM. So, here, “elect” means his saints. I am reading this in context.

                these have nothing to do with where the carcasses are…..that event has already occurred, and is over…..(deaths during the first 4 seals).

                At this point, this is only the 6th seal, and the wicked ( those chosen or elected for punishment) still have to go through the trumpets and vials.

                The elect are removed before the wrath of God begins….this is the rapture…or second coming, or whatever you want to call it.

                hope this makes sense…..anyhow it looks like we do not agree yet.

                god bless you.

                • Hello again Marianne and all,

                  You said:
                  “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:”

                  My first question to you would be, how do you personally interpret the word “Immediately” as in, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days?” But before you answer that, read the following:

                  “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and bllessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.” (Rev.1:3)

                  My focus is on where he said “because the time is near.” Here would be a good place to apply the meaning of “A day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years are as a day.” To God the time is near and that because God is not restricted to time, but to us it has been 1900 years since this was written and most of Revelation has has yet to fulfilled. So, what kind of time period related to “Immediately” are we looking at from the time that the events of the sun, moon and stars takes place in relation to when he actually returns? Could “immediately” be longer than what we perceive just as we do with the word “Near?” For I am confident that in our sense ot the word “Near” to the average person, this would infer that it means that it is not too far away in relation to our conception of time. Just a thought.

                • Hi Marianne,
                  I’ll reply below at the bottom of the thread.

        • Hi Marianne and all,

          You said:
          “dmcal, Jesus never spoke of a rapture, only that he would return for us.”

          Answer:
          Who do you think said the following?:

          “According to the Lord’s OWN WORD, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.” (1 Thes.4:15)

          I think that you will agree that since it says, “According to the Lord’s own word” that Paul got this information directly from Jesus. Although, I believe that Jesus did allude to this indirectly in the letter to the Philadelphia church when He said,

          “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” (Rev.3:10)

          Jesus is of course speaking to that type of Philadelphia church that will be existing just before that time of testing begins, which is another designation for the “Day of the Lord,” as He certainly couldn’t be referring to that actual church of Philadelphia seeing as they have all been dead now for 1900 or so years. One would have to ask the question as to how the Lord would be keeping us “from” the hour of trial? I believe that the Harpazo or catching away is what Jesus was referring to. I also believe that when the Lord describes Lukes version of Mt.24 that aftwards he also referred to the catching away indirectly when he said the following:

          “For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to “Escape” all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)

          In both Scriptures, Jesus says that these events are going to come upon all those who live on the face of the “whole earth” and therefore, there would be no where to go to escape the wrath of God which will come in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The only logical conclusion is that the escape is in reference to being removed from the earth in the manner that the Lord revealed to Paul.

          You said:
          but this does not indicate 2 separate events……maybe all this is one event – rapture = second coming. maybe the scriptures are just presenting different aspects of the same event?

          Answer:
          The problem with the resurrection and catching away of the church taking place at the end of the age, which is synonymous with the second coming, is that this would put the church through all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Yet, regarding His wrath the word of God states that, “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Again, I consider from what I have studied that, the seals, trumpets and bowls are all considered to be the wrath of God, the day of the Lord and the church is not appointed to go through it.

          It is not uncommon for information that was not known to the prophets of old to be revealed at a future time. For example, the OT saints were aware that there was going to be a resurrection. If you remember, when Martha was concerned for her brother Lazarus, Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again” and Martha said, “I know that he will rise at the resurrection at the last day.” So, they were well aware of it, but no one of that time knew of the event that would accompany the resurrection, that being the “Harpazo,” that is, “The snatching away.” No one knew about this event until the Lord revealed it to Paul to give to us.

          The timing of the resurrection and catching away in relation to the return of Jesus at the end of the age, is something that must be deduced through the comparison of Scripture from Daniel to Revelation and everything in between. The major factor in determining the timing is establishing when the wrath of God takes place in relation to our present time and the return of Jesus at the end of the age.

          Yours in Christ

          • dmcal

            It seems like if Jesus wanted to completely spare us of suffering, he should have returned 2000 years ago. saints have already suffered through antichrists, wars, famines and martyrdom……every apostle except John was martyred….they were not spared the trials to come, they went through them..

            i consider the seals a pre-trib period, and the trumpets and vials the wrath….although the seals are full of tribulation as far as those are concerned who have had to suffer through them.
            jesus said he would return when the sun turned dark and the moon turned red.. and that is the 6th seal.

            this discussion has a lot to do with definitions…our definitions are different, so our conclusions are different as well.

            but all will be answered when he returns to get us.

            god bless you

  24. Regarding the word “elect” in chapters/verses such as Matthew 24:22. and 24.

    The first thing that must be taken into consideration here, is that Yeshua is answering His disciples questions that were specifically regarding end times. Matthew 24:3

    Where this problem was generated initially was with the inception of the Roman Catholic Church and its error of “supersessionism”, or replacement theology.

    Though during the Reformation, and subsequent birth of the Protestant faith the ideology had evolved significantly, the error of “replacement theology” remained relatively intact. Therefore it still exists today.

    As Christian’s, we have simply been conditioned over the years to indentify with that specific word.
    Not that we aren’t indeed the elect, but only after some specific requirements had been fulfilled first.

    Remember, when Yeshua spoke the word “elect” to His Jewish followers then, there was no New Testament to verify as to “who” else He could be referring too. His disciples were Jew’s that would associate the word “elect” to what was written within the Hebraic scrolls of the Tanakh. (Just like the Berean’s did.)

    I believe that you will agree, that Matthew was written by a “Jew”, to the “Jew’s”, about a”Jew.”
    In keeping with the context of the book, it’s first purpose and intention (from the introduction of Yeshua’s lineage through to His resurrection at the end), was to preach the Gospel to the Jew’s of the day.

    Therefore, the majority of Messianic congregations identify Matthew 24 as being more specifically related to the Jews that will be alive at the end of the Tribulation, during the Second Coming of Yeshua.
    (The geographical references that are made within the text appear to support this premise.)

    As I have said above, the references that would have been available at the time, (the same ones that the Berean’s used), would have only been in the scrolls, and the verses would have been;

    Isaiah 42:1 utilizes the word “elect” to refer to the Messiah.

    Isaiah 45:4 speaks of Israel being God’s “elect”.

    Isaiah 65:9 speaks of Israel as the “elect” inheriting the land.

    Isaiah 65:22 speaks of Israel as His “elect” building the Kingdom in the future new heaven and earth.

    The Hebrew transliterated word for “elect” is “Bachiyr”, Strong’s # 0972 and it’s definitions are as follows;
    “chosen, choice one, chosen one, elect (of God) ”

    Nowhere within its definition does it include what we would refer to as the “Church” today, simply because at that time, the “church” did not exist.

    Now I am more than aware that there are those that would stop me right here and state, “The word elect there definitely is referring to the church!” However, I would ask these people in particular to continue reading, in hopes that they would understand a possible error with that association.

    What I am saying is this;

    Unless something specific has occurred to “effect change” it is only logical to assume that things remain the same. It makes no sense whatsoever, to replace the context of a previously understood “term or phrase”, and apply a completely new definition to it, without a specific reason to do so.

    So with that in mind, If one was to carry forth its original definitions, then the church wouldn’t even be considered to be what is being referred to here. For within its original context the understanding is meant to either represent the Messiah or Israel itself.

    Yet now, it has taken on a whole new meaning? One of being solely representative of the church as we know it.

    The fact that the New Testament itself, is a continuation of the Old, and that to take the word “elect” prior to the church being either a physical or spiritual entity, as being representative of such, is the cause behind most of this confusion. Where in actuality it is more plausible that it is representative of that of Israel.
    ( Perhaps if I rephrased that last point in the following manner, it would make what it is that I am trying to convey clearer to understand.)

    “The word “elect” in referring to the church, only took effect and became reality in Jerusalem, when the Spirit of promise was given on Shavuot, (or Pentecost). But prior to that happening the word elect, rather than referring to the “church” is referring, (depending on it’s context and linguistic setting.”), as it has throughout the millennia of the Old Testament. That being either the Messiah or Israel. The New Testament is simply a continuation of the Old. Definitions to identify specific individuals or groups don’t necessarily change arbitrarily “unless something occurs to effect that change”.

    Just as it took Yeshua’s actual death on the Cross, (where the veil to the Holy of Holies was rent), His subsequent resurrection, and ascension to the Father to create the New Covenant, (Hebrews 9:16), it took the giving of the Holy Spirit as being a necessary determining factor, to create the Church.
    Prior to that happening, since the church itself didn’t exist either physically or spiritually, how could the word “elect” possibly be referring to it?” Therefore, I believe that in this particular case, it isn’t.

    And if it isn’t, then it is far more likely that it is referring to the “remnant of Israel” at the end of days, and just before Yeshua’s second coming when He establishes the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth.

    “12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

    13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown , and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.” Isaiah 27:12,13.

    In respects to Matthew 24:31 and the word “elect” utilized there.

    Within the Greek language there is only one biblical word to utilize to represent those that are “chosen by God” and that is the transliterated word “eklektos”. Within the Bible this word is always translated into English as “elect”. What many fail to take into consideration, is that this would be the only word that could be utilized whether those that were being referred to were “chosen by God” for either blessings, or for punishment.

    So if you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for blessings, the word “eklektos” would be utilized. If on the other hand, you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for punishment, the word “eklektos” would again also be utilized. The way that one would decipher as to which “good or bad” would be applicable, would be from the content and context of the surrounding text itself.

    If we look at the text from say Matthew 24: 27 on for example, we can see that Yeshua is speaking of His triumphant return with His angels. In verse (28) He reveals to us a very significant clue. “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” And in verse (40 & 41) He solidifies that previous clue with, “Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left.”

    For those that are familiar with the parable relating to the “Wheat and the Tares” the context now becomes quite obvious. The “elect” that will be gathered by His angels are those that are the “Tares” and are “chosen by God” for punishment, immediately after the tribulation when the time for judgment commences.

    “For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” Matthew 24:38,39.

    Be Blessed

  25. Dmcal, the mystery of the end time can only be discerned…not explained. Make sense?

    • Internet elias,

      Please forgive me, but I tend to disagree.

      Though the Spirit Himself is ultimately who reveals to us the truth within Scripture, lifting the veil so to speak for our understanding, our intellect as man is also a component that we must utilize. This intellect is in actuality expressed within the first two Spiritual Gifts out of the nine, by Paul within 1 Corinthians 12:8.

      The English words “wisdom and knowledge” are translated from the transliterated Greek words “Sophia” (Strong’s 4678) and “gnōsis” (Strong’s 1108) respectively.

      Both of these words relate to the intellectual capabilities of man. The primary definitions for sophia are as follows; “wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters.

      a) The wisdom which belongs to men.

      1) spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs.”

      The primary definitions for gnōsis are as follows; “1) knowledge signifies in general intelligence, understanding.

      a) The general knowledge of Christian religion.

      b) The deeper more perfect and enlarged knowledge of this religion, such as belongs to the more advanced.”

      Therefore the process of understanding is produced within the act of participation with the individual and the Spirit combined. It is up to the reader to patiently contemplate both spiritually and intellectually over a certain matter within the word.

      Be Blessed

    • Hello elias,

      “Dmcal, the mystery of the end time can only be discerned…not explained. Make sense?

      I believe that discernment and explanation go hand-in-hand, which is
      the act or process of exhibiting keen insight and good judgment. Therefore, I can explain to others what God has revealed to me through my study of His word through the insight of the Holy Spirit. If what you said was true, how could there be any teachers, which is the act of expounding on what they have studied? In fact, Revelation begins with the following:

      “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants what must soon take place.”

      Furthermore, Jesus says:

      “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.”

      How can I explain the book of Revelation if I don’t understand what it is saying? How can one who hears the words of this prophecy take to heart what is written if they don’t know what is being said? Yes, it is a hard book to understand, but the reward is well worth continuing to study it, because the more you study, the more God reveals. He rewards those with knowledge, who are zealous and persistant in seeking His word. And so, as is with the word of God in general, so it is with the book of Revelation. Scripture must always backup Scripture.

      For example, when we debate the subject of the phrase “The day of their wrath has come” where others interpret that it infers that the wrath must follow the annoucement, then I turn to Scripture which shows to be to the contrary. If someone says what is correct according to what is written, then I will be in agreement with them. For if you believe that the wrath begins after the annoucement, then, as I said, you would have to apply the same logic to the second and third announcement of the same phrase and that because you can’t have it both ways. Either the wrath follows the announcement only or the announcements encompass the entire events of the seals, trumpets and bowls as God’s wrath in its entirity. God always backs up Scripture with Scripture. There are subjects in Revelation that I am firm on as to their meaning and other subjects that I keep in my spiritual box, which is where I keep those things until God reveals them to me at some future time. Regarding those issues, I will tell people (Ibid) or this is what I believe.

      So, this prophecy of Revelation is meant for us to read and understand. So, the more you read the more God reveals to you, this being a life-long process. It is when people are drawn away by every wind of doctrine that problems arise and we have plenty of those today. This is exactly another reason why we should all be grounded in the word of God and that so that we continue to grow in God’s word and so that we cannot be deceived.

  26. alienated…accurate points. But about both the Old and New Testaments, anything said in either is the supernatural Word of the living God and is, therefore, Alive. Meaning is given by Divine illumination and is limited only by God’s descretion. It’s illumination is grounded in the glorious Light of Life and is, subsequently, beyond measure. The word ‘elect’ is also illuminated…alive. It’s meaning is perfect for all generations. It’s Truth is boundless. ‘Elect’ reveals what God intended for both the Jews and the gentiles…without one contradicting the other.

  27. I think it is important to consider what alienated and dmcal have said. Alienated points out that we should use our intelligence but remember that God can operate in many dimensions and is not restricted by time or sequence so that all the events mentioned in revelation could only take say 2.5 ms seconds or run backwards or be out of order. Maybe the first seal is seven years long and the rest only takes 2.5 ms, its hard to tell with limited (non God like) intelligence that can only join say 9 dots as alienated points out. Because God isn’t limited. And dmcal has pointed out that the mention of the wrath of the lamb at sixth seal may gbe the first mention of the lambs wrath but that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been going of for years without mention because the seals were opened by the lamb so it all must be under the control of thelamb so the first seal is he wrath of the reading lamb because He opened the seal. So everything that goes on in revelation is the wrath of the lamb which lasts from the first seal to the end of the tribulation. Not forgetting of course that we are human and that Gos does not have to limit himself to our time or dimensions or reasoning or logic so it could be in any order really. I recon it goes backwards very fast and then slows down until the seventh trumpet when it speeds up again and goes into the seventh dimension. I’ll check the bible first though.

    • Hi Don, Mick, Elias and all.

      I would first just like to express my appreciation to all who have taken the time to read and take into consideration my thoughts. I realize that I can sometimes be a little long winded, and have difficulty restraining my passion.

      However, is there a subject that any of us holds deeper in the recesses of our hearts?

      I suspect that I could have simply utilized the following analogy and have made the point that I was trying to articulate previously, just as well.

      Regarding the Day of the Lord, and the separate and distinct times that Gods wrath appears to expressed, or exclaimed in the Book of Revelation.
      Lets use an example that we can all relate to, even within that of our dimensional plane.

      If it was say, your Birthday and someone called you up at 12:10 am to acknowledge that to you, and exclaimed “Happy Birthday!” It would be your Birthday.

      If someone then saw you at a later time, say in the morning at 9:00 am and exclaimed “Happy Birthday”
      It would be your Birthday.

      If again at Noon, someone else did the same thing etc. etc.
      I think you all know by now where I going with this.
      If one then associates the Day of the Lord and its ensuing wrath the same way as you can understand the exclamations of the Birthday wishes, then the pieces of what was formerly a puzzle, fall neatly into place.
      Which I believe should be the only objective to our study.

      Throughout the years, I personally have had to throw into the trash can, much of what I previously understood to be the truth. Because in reality, it became a stumbling block to further growth.
      It has been my personal experience that, the process of being taught, can only be accomplished when you admit and realize that you don’t know all there is to know. (Try to explain that premise to a teenager. lol)

      With that, am I saying that I hold all of the answers? No! Not a chance, and in my opinion anyone who does proclaim that, is simply delusional.
      Yet, if in my willingness to let go of what I may have previously believed, and have instead chosen to be submissive and placed my trust in God to reveal to me certain aspects of His truth, and in doing so experience positive results, then I would have to say that this is a good methodology to maintain.

      I suspect that there is still ample space within that trash can for current beliefs to reside in the future?
      Yet I more than willing to be patient, and have God provide me with His truth, rather than I am in proving my beliefs to be correct.

      My wish for all of you, is to have an open mind, and a submissive heart.

      Be Blessed

  28. alienated, sure all can tell I am no Bible scholar and have no theological background. God continues to blow my mind with His Truth…which many times goes against religious doctrine I have been taught. Light is the only illumination of what God meant by what He said. Man can’t see it, hear it, figure it out apart from the presence of the Supernatural. That’s why I have my blog site….to express my understanding of the Word in a noncombative…lol…way. And I suspect that is why Marianne has this one…to express ones heart, to encourage Christian brethren, to search scripture, to grow in grace and knowledge, and to let God give the increase to any of the site’s renderings. We all are headed in the same direction…though we may take different avenues.

    • Hi Eilas,

      I understand what you are saying above. And just for the record, I am no one of any note regarding being a scholar either. Just a mere student of Gods Word.

      It is my belief that we are all on the precipice of new revelation as time draws nearer to the end of days.
      It is also my belief, that much of what will be revealed will be contrary to what we now consider to be doctrine.

      Not to say that this revelation will not line up with scripture itself, but will instead provide clarity, and eliminate much of what today is confusion. I think that much of what “institutions” hold today as doctrine, is a repeat of what the Pharisees believed, and I think that God is about to show all of His children some amazing truths in the not to distant future. Amen to that.

      Be Blessed

      • Amen and Glory to God on that one, brother! I too think God is getting ready to open our eyes and move in exciting ways. Sometimes in church and during worship, I feel as though I’m about to burst…like the scene from C. S. Lewis’ Prince Caspian, when Lucy is almost talking and dancing with the trees that have been dormant for so long. I’m like a dormant tree ready to LIVE!
        Alienated- I have been exceedingly busy, just started homeschooling, but soon I will be able to resume my studies and at the top of my list is your thought on the 10 virgins🙂

        • Hi Malia,

          Nice to hear from you gurl.

          Good to also hear that you are pursuing your education too.
          All the best with that.

          I am currently in the midst of writing a book, so I am not here as much as I used to be, but I hope that you enjoy your study time of the Ten Virgins parable that I posted.

          Praying that Yeshua continues to bless you in your life. 🙂

          • I’m not sure if this will work? It is my first attempt at linking or posting a video, or tune. But I love this song and it always makes me cry.

            Be Blessed

  29. i look at it this way if i am ready at all times for his return then i know were i will be going theirs so much that can be read and some say we will be taken same say we will go through the first 3 .5 years some say we wont same say we will be here through it all i be leave in Jesus and i am in is hands

    • hi Flybird

      that is the best attitude. Trust Jesus and do not worry about the details.

      God bless you and take care of you always.

    • Well said. I agree totally with this! For our faith is not based on when this event takes place only that we should anticipate and hope in it. And we as believers should have the same spirit as those at the on-set of the church, which is to keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God even to the point of death. Something that I always keep in my prayers is that God would give me a spirit that would not love life so much as to shrink away from death, while keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God.

  30. Hi Marianne,

    Sorry for not getting back to you sooner regarding your question.

    Okay read Luke 17:23-37 which is relating to the same discussion that Yeshua had with His disciples in Matthew 24. Here we now have the context to formulate as to who the One Taken, One Left is, correct?

    Then read Matthew 13: 37- 43 (Pay particular attention to verse 41 and 42. and when this event happens.)

    “41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

    Now re-read Matthew 24 and pay particular attention to verse 31.
    “31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

    As I have stated above, “Within the Greek language there is only one biblical word to utilize to represent those that are “chosen by God” and that is the transliterated word “eklektos”. Within the Bible this word is always translated into English as “elect”. What many fail to take into consideration, is that this would be the only word that could be utilized whether those that were being referred to were “chosen by God” for either blessings, or for punishment.

    So if you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for blessings, the word “eklektos” would be utilized. If on the other hand, you happened to be the elect, (or chosen) of God for punishment, the word “eklektos” would again also be utilized. The way that one would decipher as to which “good or bad” would be applicable, would be from the content and context of the surrounding text itself.

    The “elect” that will be gathered by His angels are those that are the “Tares” and are “chosen by God” for punishment, immediately after the tribulation when the time for judgment commences.

    This will fulfill Matthew 13:30, “Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

    The “elect” in Matthew 24:31 are the Tares that Yeshua speaks about that will be gathered at His return at the end of the age In Matthew 13.

    So I disagree when you state that you are reading this in context. I believe that you are reading it only within the established preconceived belief that you hold, which is that the word “elect” can only be referring to as being representative to that of the Church.

    To address and comment on the “sun being darkened and the moon not giving its light” aspect that you present above, is a whole other topic in itself. My point that I am attempting to convey here, is that the “elect” spoken in Matthew 24 in verses 22 and 24, is in reference to Israel itself, and that in verse 31, it is represenative to the “Tares”.

    Be Blessed

    • hi alienated

      I do not see why you take Matthew 13 and jump to matthew 24 and apply the meaning there…..i agree about the tares in context in 13, but do not see how it has the same meaning in 24.

      • Hi Marianne,

        Ya know,
        I was going to provide you with a detailed response regarding all of this, but figured, “What was the point?”
        As long as the topic itself doesn’t have a direct relevance to that of Salvation, what does it even matter?

        Interpretations of scripture go from one end of the spectrum to the other, and both sides are basically based upon conjecture, for we just aren’t provided enough information to derive a collective conclusion. Therefore it is a rather futile endeavor.

        I would like to take this opportunity here though, to recant a previous comment that I had made above.

        I have stated that the Greek word “eklektos” had only been translated as the English word “elect” by the translators, (and there must have been some type of glitch within the site that I utilize for my study’s system that day that I did my analysis), for I have just discovered that the Greek word itself HAS been translated into another English word as well. Therefore my previous statement would be incorrect.
        However, the other word does only go to further prove the point I was attempting to make, for it has only been translated as either “elect” or that of “chosen”, which would also include those that were chosen for blessings, or for punishment.

        Any way’s

        Take Care & Be Blessed

    • Hello again,
      I would like to throw this out there and see what opinions you all have of it.
      http://www.bibleone.net/print_es9.html

  31. sermon from http://www.shepherdschapel.com on the tribulation

    http://www.mediafire.com/?6nytlztgwll

  32. sermons from http://www.shepherdschapel.com on The elect
    http://www.mediafire.com/?h9jtjewxtf1
    http://www.mediafire.com/?4m0ejjoz0os

  33. GOOD EDUCATIVE MESSAGE

  34. So in your opinion is the Philadelphian church taken out before the tribulation starts and the Laodicean church left to go through the tribulation and then removed after the tribulation is over at the 6th seal but before the 7th seal?

    • Elle

      That is the way it looks to me, although I could be wrong. all the churches go through the tribulation except philadelphia and the martyrs (already dead)

  35. Thanks Marianne. That’s the way I see it as well. I figured that was what you were saying, but I had some difficulty following along.

  36. […] Tribulation in Matthew and Revelation – 2. […]

  37. I & my family is now going thru suffering due to mother-in-law’s severe illness at the hospital. I heard some more people are in the same manner. Various types of problems created by Evil acts. This is not only for Christians , but for Buddhists also. We can defeat them thru prayers.
    My thoughts were questioned? Bad evil thoughts are coming. This means trials started to defeat our faith? 1917+100=2017+7=2024 St.Malachi Pope List => Last Pope= Francis 1
    We heard people killed not only by ISIS, but individuals like in Japan.
    Mental Problem or evil acts Spreading ?

  38. Faith Testing Time started ?

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