Why did the Jesus movement die?


The Jesus movement was popular back in the 1970s. If people are still Christians,  what happened to the movement?


The popularity and timing



The Jesus movement was the major Christian element within the hippie counterculture, or, conversely, the major hippie element within some strands of Protestantism. Members of the movement were called Jesus people, or Jesus freaks. The movement arose on the West Coast of the United States in the late 1960s and early 1970s, and spread primarily on college campuses through North America and Europe, before dying out by the early 1980s.

Perhaps the height of the Jesus movement was in the week-long gathering in Dallas, Texas known as Explo ’72, which attracted 80,000 young people and brought the hippies of the Jesus movement together with young people from traditional, Christian families and churches.


If it was so popular, why did it die?

First, one needs to see the underlying characteristics of the students, and understand the times. I am speaking as someone who was a cohort of this group.

1. The movement as a whole was characterized by a resurgence of brotherly love, and kindness, during an era in which society was being torn apart by the Vietnam War. When the war ended, the social environment changed.

2. The main participants were college students who had college deferments and did not serve in the Vietnam war. Many went to college to avoid service in the war. This was a social activity at school. Once they graduated, they focused on their careers.

3. There was a need to be constantly in an ideal world. This was very characteristic of the hippie population. For Jesus people, Jesus replaced drug use, but the need to escape into Paradise, rather than facing reality, was common to both of them. Some did not go the Jesus route, but participated in the Transcendental Meditation movement instead, something borrowed from the eastern religions.

4. There was a need to feel spiritual, which was ok in itself, but the milk of the Word and the fellowship was for a younger crowd. They eventually grew up, and needed the meat of the Word. Some got this, and went on. Some remained in the past.

5. Many wanted the love and fellowship, but not the hardships and responsibility. Witnessing was reserved to safe situations, to other escapist young people, or others who were already Christians, but wanted “a little more.” The witnessing agenda was canned with a set presentation, and simplistic answers to complicated questions. This was ok, since easy answers worked for a crowd looking for easy answers. They attracted others with great music, that appealed to that generation. There was no deep thought involved. People just wanted to be happy and have friends. Of course, the same was true of any hippie or young person. Dependency on others, rather than independence.

6. Incomplete recreation of the early church. One has to remember that the concept of ministering one to another that went on in the early church was due to persecution of the times, as people sacrificed themselves to bring others to faith in Jesus. The persecution was real, and people died. The Jesus movement included the encouragement of members without the persecution. Getting teased or their witness rejected was about all they would experience. So, their faith was not “tested in the fire.” This kind of testing produces spiritual maturity.

6. Escapism. As hippies, one had the choice of drugs or Jesus. Jesus was legal in those days. Drugs weren’t, although popular with those who did not care about the law.

7. It was easy. So easy come, easy go. Bible studies were fun, but routine in content. When society became more complex and challenging, easy answers did not accomplish as much, or win many converts, unless the situation just happened to be an easy one.

9. Changes in the youth culture towards a more materialistic society. They became successful in the business world through education and social networking. Whatever spiritual growth had occurred in college was regarded as adequate, and reached a plateau. Many commercialized their faith, and made a good business for themselves. They turned into what we call “prosperity preachers” of today.

8. For some, the need to grow up, and deepen one’s commitment to their faith. This would mean to put aside the things of a child, and take on the things of an adult. This does not mean to abandon the faith, but to pursue it in an independent, rather than a dependent fashion, to dig out answers for oneself. This would distance them from fellowship with others, who had preferred to remain emotionally back in the 70’s. This growth is actually a good thing, but it is not manifested in large group settings.

9.  Many had a “bless me club” focus, with a desire for sensational experiences.  This promoted egocentric activity, with the primary focus on getting blessed in a tangible way, rather than focusing on the needs of the unsaved world.


If the Jesus movement is dead, does that mean Jesus is dead, or Christianity is dead?

NO !!!!!

Jesus lives forever. He is not dead.  🙂

But the way Christianity is presented is dead.

Sugar cookie Christianity is dead.

We cannot live in the past, and cling to simpler, easier times, when we face a dangerous and evil world.

We need to grow up.

We need to get smart, and work hard, and put Jesus first again.

So what changes need to be made?

1. seek the spiritual gifts, not for self glory, or to be cool, but to make oneself a servant for the Lord Jesus Christ

2. Go deep into scriptures, and go after the difficult answers to modern day questions.

3. Realize that unbelievers are not poor lost things, like in the 70s, who are seeking Jesus, and they do not know it. Most unbelievers have been exposed to sugar cookie Christianity, and the prosperity gospel, and are turned off from it. You will now have to fight doctrine put out by your own faith, in order to witness to others.

4. Look to the Holy Spirit, not man, for answers.

5. Drop the fake stuff, and the prosperity heresy. It makes people laugh at you, and makes a mockery of Jesus.

5. Stop hiding in your house, and hanging around only people who are Christians like you.

6. Get out in the real world and feel the damage.

7. Preach the REAL gospel, the kingdom of God. Heal the sick, and the lame and the blind. Cast out devils.

8. When unbelievers attack you, and accuse you falsely, get a prayer life, and expect to die for your faith. Expect other Christians to be jealous and attack you too. Courage only comes with intimate association with God. Get there on your knees.

Today’s world is not for sugar cookie Christians, who want to sit around and sing. Worship is fine, but what use is it, if you are useless to God?

The Jesus movement is NOT dead. It has just needs to evolve into something more powerful.

This is not the Vietnam War era anymore. Hippie thinking is out.

This is Satan’s final hours. The fight will be brutal. Be prepared or perish.

176 Responses to “Why did the Jesus movement die?”

  1. […] was popular back in the 1970s. If people are still Christians, what happened to the movement? Click here for […]

  2. I really liked this post. Materialism has really taken a strong hold in our society. Being a Baha’i myself, I love Jesus and feel that He has come again in the form of Baha’u’llah, but still people need to be committed and practice their faith and exhibit their love of Jesus and Baha’u’llah through deeds.

  3. Hi anotherworldcitizen

    How really nice of you to visit my page. I have met some Baha’i students from Iran. They were wonderful people.

    I think all people of faith should be mature, loving, responsible and care about others.

    thank you for visiting
    many blessings

  4. We humans need to take our being called, “sheep” more seriously. We have not been smart, anymore than the Disciples really never understood Jesus as they walked with Him. Nor do our shepherds really understand Him so they can teach us properly. Our shepherds are blind, and they lead the blind. How can a move of God that depends on us participating long continue? DavWms

  5. Hi David

    There is a saying in the science world

    “Publish or perish.”

    So goes with Christianity. It is the same concept as “faith without works is dead.”

    Stupid sheep get eaten by wolves, so getting smart is up to each sheep. Pastors were only meant to teach lambs to become sheep.. Now the sheep need to think for themselves, and stop sitting around, or they will be around an 7 more years than they had originally planned.


  6. A few days ago I watched on NBC or MNBC (can’t be sue) a documentary ‘Witness to Johnstown’. The story of Jim Jones. How suave and persuasive he was to those people! I had difficulty to keep my eyes dry. How much comfort people are craving for. How much one needs to make himself pleased to be omnipotent over those poor souls. For him, and for his follows, it is all the ‘pleasure’ (get pleased) that counts. All in the name of Jesus. This pleasure is what we call in biblish ‘glory’. No one is looking for how to please God for His glory, but going after his own glory. In the beginning part, while Jim is in U.S. before his paranoia and drug use set in, the only sign Satanic was the way he laugh. You should listen to it. It’s much worse than anything in horror movies. Most of time you can detect this from their eyes. For him, it was a later one, but then, most of times he wears a hinted (sun) glasses. It would not be obvious. But just look at the eyes of O’Bomber on TV when he was making right after the vote count was over. Of course, for the sake of cinematography, they make up monsters with horrible facial figures, but among the humans, you can feel something about their character from their voice, their speech (remember it will be tickling to ears and 90% are genuine-sounding), and their eyes. It is not easy to hide who and what they are.

    Speaking of the naive Jesus Freak movement, it is just one of the myriad examples sprung up throughout the human history. That includes also all the denominations after first 2 centuries persecutions (i.e. Roman Papal Catholicism, and its protestant denominations). It includes all the cults derived from those interested in prophecy, Revelation, and predicting the time of Christ’s return (includes Adventists, Jehovah’s Witness, etc.) and other quasi-christians (Christian Scientists, Mormons, Course of Miracle cult, Unitarian-universalits), various pentacostalism, Obamnation’s Afro-centrism, ‘Word of Faith’ and other health-wealth-prosperity gospels (Oral Roberts, Robert Schuller, Copeland, many more, incl. Pure Gospel cult of Cho-yonggi from Korea – the one boasting the largest church in the world with over 700,000 members).

    Now we have an untold number of TV programs broadcasting 24/7 with all their plans, projects, programs, preachings, peddling God’s words, raking money in their pockets those reverends, pastors, preachers, evangelists, faith-healers, etc. Now, not all they say is wrong – that’s the problem. I can see about 90% of what they say is very good to hear. But that score is worse than the Satan’s, which is 99% true and enticing, but better than the politicians (which is about 50% true. O’Hama tops them by flip-flopping to make almost 100% lies because we cannot tell which is truths which is lies, etc. Actually I heard he was now getting on-the-job training from Hillary, McCain, etc. on the issue of economy. It is to be or not to be for Auto makers.)

    Now our task is how to filter them? We need the sword to cut down through the schemers, spammers, squanders, scorners of the truth:

    I have a suggestion here that should work well:

    (1) anything which is not in the bible but is added for their claim. Like left-behinders.
    (2) any preaching which is not based on the Cross of Christ.
    (3) any preaching which does not tell the Suffering of Christ, who calls us to suffer with Him. He never promised us to become rich, to never suffer from physical illness or death. When someone tells you a promise to make you rich, to get return 10 100 1000 times of the money you pull out of your wallet or what little you have and give to God (that is into their own pocket), seed – harvest messages work the same. – Then just run away. If you see healing on TV, you know it’s fake. There are myriads and myriads people ill and sick and hurt. In you home, home at the next door, in the hospitals. If they have genuine healing power (which I do not doubt), why don’t they pop in a hospital and get them healed for God’s sake. Not just faking to have someone walk out of a wheelchair. What is all about babbling in tongue? How does it prove that one is really saved, one has received spirit? It is same as spirit-possessed as a demonic spirit-possessed. It used to be in the closet, like gays. Now they are out of closet. Not only that, they like to show off on TV!

    How we can ask God bless us? God bless this country? Does Sun shine only for those righteous people? No, God sends His blessing to all, good and evil. It’s how you received it, or rather how you realize that you HAVE received His blessing.

    After fashion of WWJD, now, if Jesus comes here, where would you find Him? Will he be there in the Presidential morning breakfast prayer club with pastors (in Korea, they have this one once in a while)? On a TV show of charismatics dancing with slaying by shaman’s spirit to talk with them in a tongue? In a crystal cathedral to give a nice testimony like a celerity? Would he prefer to be with the Pope in the St. Peter’s basilica to give a real blessing to all, standing next to the weeping Mary’s stature? In my bedroom to discuss the bible, where it is not easy to find what color of the carpet is? Or would he rather be found among the homeless?

  7. LOL, Marianne. I hope your tongue was in your cheek when you said the above. It doesn’t take much to see how the churches are set up to gather sheep and keep them under the leadership. (Of course, tithing all the while.) Where is one where a shepherd teaches the sheep to think for themselves? I have been around for a loooong time, and I have yet to see one.

    And if God sends a prophet to speak out correction in a church, what is the usual result? The prophet is sent away in disgrace, for what shepherd will stand for correction these days?

    And the purpose of the Spirit gifts becomes entertainment for feel good moments, while the devil and his cohorts laugh at the powerless sheep who know nothing about spiritual warfare. They know nothing about it because they are caught in never ending milque-toast and elderberry wine sermons of how to enjoy life, not how to defeat the enemy of their souls.

    And when a shepherd actually tries to step out and teach about the enemy’s wiles, he is attacked by the brethren, those preachers who are afraid to learn truth not taught in seminary.

    Let’s look at that verse where the shepherd is supposed to leave the 99 and go after the lost one before it is devoured by wolves. Shepherds take that to mean they should go out and find new converts. But that whole context shows that lost sheep ALREADY had belonged to that flock, and the pastor needs to go after the one HE LOST! But do they? No, they are blamed for leaving and getting devoured by wolves. Now, if the pastor taught truth, even about the enemy, perhaps the sheep never would have gone astray.

    So what I said above I still stand on. Shepherds do not let their lambs grow up to be sheep, if they can help it. If they do happen to grow up, they become unwelcome, for they will have seen the folly they are being taught…. DavWms

  8. hi Oun

    You sound like a regular Encyclopedia of church knowledge.!!!

    Good comments.


  9. Hi David,

    Fake preachers and pastors are the one thing that will really push my alarm button. 🙂

    I have written several posts on this topic

    here is one example:

    they got the sheep in bbaaah bbaaah land.


  10. Marianne, I’m not talking about the obvious fake pastors. I am saying that I know of only a VERY few who will seek deep truths that are found in the Bible. They teach what they were taught in seminary by others who never sought deep truth, either.

    Then after becoming “educated,” they fear even discussing with another, things they see and hear that do not fit in the box they have put around spiritual matters. They do not dare let their peers know they have for example, seen a Christian whom they know very well, manifesting of demons.

    No, they don’t dare let that be known that a Christian can have demons. But worse than that, they don’t even realize that “the old man” in us they talk about is demonic. No, they keep it sounding milque-toast. Never dare to take seriously God’s words that His people perish for lack of knowledge. .. DavWms

  11. hi David,

    are you talking about pastors who intentionally are like this, or they are just ignorant themselves.?


  12. Hi, Marianne. In my first comment I think, I used the term, “Blind.” When we talk about being spiritually blind, it means they do not know they are blind.

    Long ago, you put my e-book “Walking With God” on this site for anyone to read. This type blindness is the main subject of the book. What I show in the book is that this is Scriptural to any who will open their Spiritual eyes. But that the seminaries teach their students to only see what they themselves have seen in the Word, but no more. (They are rich and need no more.)

    For example, if you went up to a large detailed work of art and only looked at two square inces of it in one corner, you would only learn what is in that context, but would miss the overall message the artist intended.

    A long time ago I had just watched a docu on the pyramids in Egypt. As I walked away from the TV, I was wondering if that one we always see, the one without the capstone was the last project the Israelites had worked on. (Jesus is the Capstone.) Then I heard, “Watch this!”

    An open vision appeared before me. I saw a huge pyramid made of many shaped stones. I “understood” each stone represented a Bible verse. Then I saw a red line go from one stone all the way across the structure to another stone. Then the red line went elsewhwere to another stone, etc; Shortly the whole pyramid was red. I got the message that “Every verse in the Bible should be seen in the light of every other verse.”

    As I pondered this, I realized it meant that yes, we should read in context as we search out a detail. But we cannot see His overall meaning without seeing the whole Bible too. That opened me up to see things I had never seen before IN THE WORD! Even what Jesus was telling His disciples was importsant when we are reading what happened for example, to Joseph and David. VERY important! But I have yet to hear anyone teach what is available to open spiritual eyes.

    People want all to stay as it is, thinking they are rich, and have no need for more. Lukewarm Laodacia, and they do not know it… DavWms

  13. Hi David,

    I wonder what the meaning of these numbers mean, then…


    Words: 783,137

    Verses: 31,101

    I wonder if that has a hidden clue to something.


  14. Hmmm, I don’t know, Marianne. I envy people who can make sense of numbers and such. So many Bible things intrigue me, but He only showed me what He wanted me to see. I know after reading your book, that you understand that learning deep things costs a price. It is suffering by experiencing what Jesus experienced when He was persecuted.

    I would like to say more, but it is written in my book. I almost always get in trouble when I speak of these things, because it is not what people were taught. That is why I had to sneak into the real truths my book shows. I layed out Bible stories then showed how they really told another story that few see.

    I went to a seminar Saturday, and was encouraged as Charles Kraft taught about evil spirits. But there were only about 30 present. I saw some get their eyes opened, tho, as it became obvious Christians have demons. I just wish this knowledge was out for all Christians to see. How else can the Bride cleanse herself for His coming? And yes, Rev. 19:7 says the Bride will prepare herself! So that which we hear that we are ready for His coming for us may not be so. I see lots of spots and wrinkles, as I’m sure you do… DavWms.

  15. hi david

    I hope many people come to be part of the bride.


  16. Hi Marianne,
    Interesting term “The Jesus Movement”. It was a great time in American history. My wife was saved during the Jesus Movement at a Billy Granham crusade. The salvation experience “stuck” and we as faithful as we know how.

    It is awesome that there is still at least one more Jesus Movement that none will be able to deny. We can only hope it is sooner than later.

  17. Hi archie,

    I think the 70s was “phase 1″…..we need a “phase 2”


  18. Christianity is still alive and well. That is the true “Jesus Movement”.

    I remember the Jesus movement of the 1970’s, and it was anything BUT Christian. A bunch of them went around, thinking that Jesus was going to take care of them and therefore they didn’t have to work, create, take care of themselves or their families.

    They went around waiting for the REAL Christians and churches to feed them, provide housing for them, medical care, …

    WAIT! It sounds like the folks on the left who voted for Obama because they think he will provide for all their needs.

  19. Hey DEebbie

    Cute comment. 🙂


  20. LOL, Debbie…I was in that movement too. With Ralph Wilkerson at Melodyland Christian Center and Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel both close by, we got to see a lot. So many of those hippies from Cal. Ch. went on to be preachers and plant new churches all over the world. It was an awesome time… DavWms

  21. LOL, Debbie…I was in that movement too. With Ralph Wilkerson at Melodyland Christian Center and Chuck Smith’s Calvary Chapel both close by, we got to see a lot. So many of those hippies from Cal. Ch. went on to be preachers and plant new churches all over the world. It was an awesome time… DavWms

  22. Hi David,

    I never made the connection until now. I have been to Ralph Wilkerson’s Melodyland, but after he turned over the church to that guy from South Africa. I met Ralph in California, when I went to Anaheim for a science meeting, but did not realize he was part of the movement. This was about 10 years ago. I am trying to remember the exact location I was at, but he and his wife prayed for me, because I was sick that day. I just remember it was a small room now. He is a nice man. I have traveled with him too, once, when I went to Israel with Benny Hinn. They sold the Melodyland property to Disney.


  23. I was around when allof this was tsk8ing place and I think the communals killed the movement. Within the commune, the group was considered more important than an individual. Also some lesaders were authoritarians.
    I remember Jim Jones, and can see how easily the enemy fooled these people, at the end of the movement. I think more people began reading the bible for themselves and moving out to fulfill the great commission, instead of gathering in one place. JMO

  24. Hi Rev Williams

    I agree that communals contributed to this decline. It goes back to the basics. If you build the church on the Rock, then it will stand. If you build it on some other priority, it will fall when the storm comes.


  25. hi marianne, i enjoyed your article. i won’t comment on much… i just wanted to mention how i am persuaded that it is nothing short of blasphemy when Jesus is reduced to slogans, T-shirts, and camp-outs.
    (i was still a baby when the hippie movement was choking out its last breaths!) but Jesus is still mocked in this same way, by SO MANY who call themselves “Christians.” i am ashamed of myself for how lightly i have taken the subject at times. sometimes Christians even make jokes about our Lord. this should make us ill. He drank the cup of the wrath of God because of our own foolishness and evil hearts. we cannot even comprehend it, yet we toss His name around like a household term.
    may God sober our hearts for coming days of testing …
    and may God bless you always…

  26. hi looseassociations,

    I was a member of this generation. Between the Christians, the corrupt politicians, and the businessmen that crashed wall street, I cannot say my generation contributed much to God’s work.

    Now we will all pay for this….It is good to hear the next generation has a little more sense.


  27. […] the “6000 years since creation deadline” we calculated. Why are we going into overtime? Click here for […]


    The Jesus movement was intense because these people were having first-hand experiences with Jesus. Some people fell in love with HIM, others fell in love with the feeling or something else, like the crowds or the success of being a Christian artist. They didn’t last. My parents met Jesus in this movement and they haven’t let Him go. And, actually the Jesus Movement is alive right here in my hometown. We have a semi-small church family who have forsaken the glamour of modern Christianity and have re-kindled our first love with Jesus. It feels, looks, and sounds like the Jesus movement expect with a unique added flavor. We have learned to revel in Him and to hear him talk. From the young to the old.


    Free from sin and in love with Jesus Christ,
    Melissa Coolidge
    Yuma, AZ

  29. Hi Melissa,

    Yes, I would believe you. And I would love to see you. There are many of us who grew up, and did not abandon our first love. This post was mainly about those who did not want to grow up, and want to live in the past, with an immature attitude, just living for their own desires.

    In fact, the Bride of Christ that is among us now, matured, and full of the meat of the Word, has grown through much suffering, and will be active as our country fails, and people need the Lord more than ever.

    I am very happy that this love of God passed from your parents to you.


  30. if we look at the magnitute of what we are talking about, martydom, we really need to fill our hearts and get strength from the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we will find ourselves right along with those others in the JM. It takes a lot of work, prayer,fasting, giving up certain things and people in our lives and of course preaching the gospel with the possibility of imprisionment or even death. I beleive that this is whats to come in the near future. Yes we need to continue to talk about it but more so be in the word and in pray. Strengthen yourselves my brethren for the time is at hand.


  31. Hi Nissi,

    True, what you said. For the future that is coming quickly, it is either “grow up”, or lose out. We all need to go deeper, and grow up more than we think we do, if we are to be tested and found faithful.


  32. Maybe the “Jesus Movement” did grow up and become the christian right. Were do you think all those “values voters” came from in 2004? Also, the “hippies” you talk about were a minority of the young people in the 60’s and first few years of he 70’s. Most kids back then were just kids, some with long hair some, with short hair, some smoking pot, or playing with tarot cards and troll dolls (did you know troll dolls were demon possessed? That’s what we were told in church.). I knew some of them. Just regular teenagers with typical teenager problems not a lot of spaced out acid-heads. There was no unifying “hippie” philosophy among them. But today everyone thinks the 60’s were just crawling with hippies. Well, they weren’t. Most people had short hair, held jobs, got married. A few who were odd stood out from the crowd and they are the ones who get all the press and publicity.

    The Jesus Movement was a mixture of honest seekers, opportunists, and fraudsters like any spiritual movement. Why did it “go away?” is the wrong question. What is being called the Jesus Movement was really little more than a marketing strategy of the Evangelicals and Pentacostals to gather more members.

    A few longhairs who gave up dope and free sex for Jesus (as defined by the Evangelicals and Pentacostals) at mass rallies with 50,000 people does not constitute a Jesus Movement anymore than the same sorts of people going to live in shacks in the woods constituted a back-to-the-land movement.

    And by the way, back then the “Jesus People” and the “Jesus Movement” were preaching the end is near just like this website is. Every little thing that happened in the news was a “sign” and we had better get ready because he comes as thief in the night and you don’t want to found asleep etc etc etc etc.

  33. Hi 2soil,

    I agree with what you say. It was a mixed group.

    Jesus gave certain signs to watch for, so that is what we do. It does not mean we know any exact date, because even Jesus said only the Father in heaven knew the exact time. I think even secular people have noticed this world is getting more dangerous, and stressful. My website is focused on multiple topics, and guessing “when” something might happen is done to satisfy curiosity, and it is kind of fun to guess sometimes. It is a nice mental exercise to search scripture, and try to analyze it. I do talk about other stuff too.

    For each of us, our own personal “end times” is our own lives, which could end at any moment. Idealistically, we cannot hope for a future time, and only THEN improve our behavior, and faith. We should be doing that all along, and not waiting until the last minute. God purposely does not tell us things, so that we should be ready at any moment, and on our best behavior.

    The Jesus movement was commercialized, yet sincere people did come out of it. Believers need to get back to what Jesus taught, and forget the materialistic stuff. Those who are not believers would then have a much better, and more accurate, impression of what Christianity really was meant to be.


  34. What was Christianity “meant to be”? How would you or anyone know? I find it strange that in the ~1975 years since the crucifiction that so many people have been coming around claiming they know what Christianity is supposed to be. This website is like that, too.

    And what is it that Jesus taught? Again, what Jesus taught and what he mneant is the subject of various interpretations and this website is no different.

  35. Dear 2soil,

    If you read the gospels and what Jesus taught, you will see what Christianity was meant to be. My website is a sincere attempt to understand, and explain, what the bible says, and expose problems that I see, so they can be corrected. I do my best to interpret correctly what I read.

    I am open to any questions or criticisms. Is there something I can answer for you? Did I say anything that is wrong? My desire is to find the real truth and present it.

    I can appreciate the frustration that unbelievers have over inconsistent and false presentations of the gospel of Jesus. In essence, man is in bondage to this world. Jesus came and forgave people their sins, encourage repentance from wrongdoing, healed the sick, feed the hungry, and delivered the oppressed.

    That is what Christians are supposed to be doing now. If they aren’t, then they are deficient. I think (my opinion) that we have been waiting so long for Jesus to return, is that the church has not been doing what Jesus instructed. They are too preoccupied in being on TV, being important, raising money for themselves, and selling books. This saddens me.


  36. I have read the gospels and the rest of the bible too. It is just an assortment of poorly edited stories purporting to be the word of some god. And then there are the so-called ‘lost’ books and ‘apocryphal’ books purporting to be written by various prophets like Daniel or apostles like Paul and Barnabas. Why not include them?

    Its all a matter of opinion and nothing more.

  37. Hi 2soil

    Ok. So you do not believe the gospels. I never said you had to. What do you do for a living?


  38. Actually, I do have to believe the gospels (the 4 official ones at least) if I am to avoid hell or eternal damnation. That appears to be a theme running through many parts of this website.

    But I don’t believe the gospels or any other part of the bible included the writtings excluded by various theological councils whether Jewish or Christian. I don’t believe that these writngs are inspired by god nor do I believe they are historically correct.

    As with any religious writings that have made it into the canon is that they were written to promote a certain point of view about who the ‘real’ god is as opposed to the god or gods of pagans and sects now considered heretical. Hence the lost books and apocryphal books that almost no average Christian has ever heard of.

    So which Christian and Jewish writings are really inspired? Just the ones between the covers of your King James Bible? Or should you also be reading and praying over the ones found in clay jars by the Dead Sea lost since about 100 BC? How about the ones found in clay jars found in the Sinai desert some 60 years ago after being forgotten for almost 1600 years?

    Waht do I do for a living? I am employed if that’s what you mean.

    So what is the word of god? The people who wrote on those scrolls from the Dead Sea and from Sinai thought they were writing downd god’s words. Are they wrong?

  39. Hi 2soil,

    It is not an option to pick and choose through God’s word in order to satisfy oneself. The doubts you raise about the validity are based on speculation and unbelief, or some nonsense off the internet, not proof.

    The Dead Sea scrolls reinforced what was written in the bible. The early apostles chose the core of what was to be read, which is what we have now. The basic documents for the New Testament were chosen 2000 years ago, and preserved. Nothing else was allowed in. The documents had to be approved by only the early apostles, and then passed down.

    Unless someone was a direct witness to Jesus and his ministry, the writings are excluded. That includes, obviously, false documents that crept up over time, as well as reasonable ones. For example, my writings on this site are reasonable, but I still was not an original witness. Therefore, my writings will never be part of the Bible.

    I asked what you did for a living for a reason. I am a biochemist. I have studied all the texts required which are part of basic Biochemistry. These are backed up with scientific evidence that they are true. Those who were experts put this series of information together so that I, also, could learn and be a biochemist.

    I do not pick and choose which things I believe. The experts do. I accept that DNA exists, and I accept that DNA is made a certain way. I accept that there are enzymes that perform certain functions and the cells in my body have certain activities. Why? Because the information was compiled and presented by the original investigators for future benefit. I accept what Einstein proved. I accept what other scientists have found. I do not sit around and decide that only enzymes exist, but DNA is a hoax. Whatever you do for a living….you have followed the same educational process.


  40. Marinne;

    I got saved 1972 during the Jesus Movement. Here’s a video/song of encouragement for believers as we go through the hard times!



  41. Marianne:

    I hope you don’t mind me putting a plug in for this video again. I didn’t know it was on YOU TUBE. It’s so inspirational and I don’t want your bloggers to miss out. I’ve gotten a lot of good feedback on it and so many people enjoyed it. We could all use inspiration right now.


  42. I went to the Calvary Chapel Celebration on May 23rd at the Anaheim Convention Center. Most people associate Chuck Smith with the Jesus Movement of the 1970’s and the hippies.


    It was very full at the convention center, but I wanted there to be standing room only. If any one is not aware, Pastor Chuck Smith had a stroke in January, but he had a full recovery. He said something very significant that stayed with me at the convention center and I had to ask one of our doctors about it. He said he can’t help but get emotional and want to cry. If you know him, that’s not like him. I think it’s very interesting he recovered from the stroke but was left with this residual. Is the Holy Spirit doing a special work in him?

    Love Song was one of the original Jesus Movement bands. They played and Chuck is going to be going up the Coast of California this summer with them and they are going to play and preach the word wherever God leads. In David Wilkerson’s devotional e-mails he believes God is going to do a fresh outpouring of His Holy Spirit before the rapture and I believe him. I need to believe it with all the doomsday stuff I keep hearing


    The Old Testament closes out with this glorious prophecy: “Behold, I will send
    you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the
    Lord: and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart
    of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse”
    (Malachi 4:5-6).

    Jesus said of John, “If you will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to
    come” (Matthew 11:14). What Christ was saying is, “John the Baptist has the
    spirit and power of Elijah upon him—if you could just see it.” We are told
    the angel of the Lord prophesied to Zachariah that his son John would “go forth
    before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the
    fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make
    ready a people prepared for the Lord” (Luke 1:17).

    I believe Malachi’s prophecy is for today also. I believe that once again God
    is going to put upon many of his chosen servants the spirit and power of
    Elijah. And these men and women of God are going to be mightily used to bring
    about a restoration of families. Divorces will be canceled! Children will be
    convicted of their rebellion and be restored in love to their parents.

    This prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes—right now. In a Texas town,
    an unassuming young pastor began to pray for the salvation of the youth in the
    local schools. God anointed him with the dynamic spirit and power of Elijah and
    not only have hundreds in his local school been saved, but the restoration is
    spreading to schools wherever he goes. Not hundreds but thousands of high
    school students are being convicted of their drugs, alcohol, sex and rebellion.
    Young people are hurrying home from outreaches to make up with their parents.
    They have been confessing deep hatred, but now they weep and repent! This will
    spread all through the land because God has promised to restore parents and

    Because of what I see coming, I am so excited I can hardly write these words.
    Unknown, unassuming, humble young men and women of God are being miraculously
    touched and anointed. They have been given a supernatural mission to “Go
    forth—and restore! For the day of the Lord has come. The cankerworms of drugs
    and alcohol are no longer permitted to eat away at the life of the youth. God
    will destroy the cankerworms.”

    The Last Outpouring
    By David Wilkerson

    I know some will not receive what I am about to say, yet many will. I do not
    believe we have yet seen the glory and fullness of the outpouring of the Holy
    Spirit as prophesied by Joel. What we have seen are just a few sprinkles! Yes,
    we have had a worldwide charismatic renewal and love has brought many together.
    It has been an experience shared worldwide, yet it is just a foretaste.

    God will permit nothing to hinder what he plans to do. The enemy is in for a
    surprise. Just as it appears the church will be inundated by a satanic flood,
    the Spirit will raise up a standard. Understand what that standard is, and you
    will understand what God is about to do. The standard is a holy people, pure,
    undefiled, delivered from the corruption that is in the world. That standard is
    a new breed of sanctified Christians, who will shine forth as lights in the
    midst of a wicked and perverse generation. It will not be just a renewal of
    love and praise, but a restoration of holiness unto the Lord!

    There will still be shouting and praise, but it will be the shout of victory
    over sin and compromise, fulfilling the purpose of the last outpouring: “That
    all who call on his name shall be delivered…” (Joel 2:32). Delivered from
    what? From sin! From the spirit of the world!

    We will not have had the fullness of the Spirit’s outpouring until baptized
    people separate themselves completely from the world. We must emphasize
    separation and purity of heart. The purpose of the Spirit’s coming is to
    sanctify and prepare a people for the Lord’s return, a people without spot or

    When the fullness of the Spirit’s outpouring comes upon all flesh, conviction
    for sin will be everywhere. “He will convict the world of sin, and of
    righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8). That is the outpouring of the
    Holy Spirit!

    Tragically, too many speak with tongues, but then live like the devil. Sin was
    never uprooted and all they received was an experience of ecstasy. God blessed
    them just enough to call them into a deeper life of holiness and submission,
    but they stopped and went about saying, “I’ve got the Holy Ghost.”

    Oh, there is so much more! I thank God for the privilege of praying in an
    unknown tongue; it is my way of releasing all the pent-up praises to God in a
    communication beyond my understanding. But you can speak with the tongues of
    men and even angels, and without charity, you have received nothing. But I say
    it goes even deeper. You are not truly baptized with the Holy Spirit until
    every hidden part of your soul has been exposed—and every sin confessed and


    I am requesting prayer for a spiritual awakening in New England. This burden
    for special prayer for revival began at our Bible school, Mount Zion
    International School of Ministry. The leadership was led by the Holy Spirit to
    begin prayer intercession in anticipation of a Holy Spirit outpouring.

    New England is the birthplace of revivals in America. Now in sobering times,
    God has seen fit to place this prayer burden on many intercessors. Many are now
    sharing their heart cry, “Oh Lord, rend the heavens and come down. America
    needs a spiritual revival more than in any time in history. Lord, do it

    Please share this burden with all your friends and contacts. For more
    information, contact us at prayer@mzisom.org or by visiting us at


    These are familiar words: “And David was greatly distressed” (1 Samuel 30:6).
    He had just returned from Gath, where King Achish had said to him, “Thou art
    good in my sight, as an angel of God” (29:9). With those praises ringing in his
    ears, David and his men returned to Ziklag, anxious to be reunited with their
    wives and children. However, they found their city burned to the ground, their
    homes destroyed, and their children and wives gone. The Amalekites had invaded
    while they were in Aphek and taken captive all that was precious to David and
    his men.

    What a horrible day of infamy in the life of this anointed man of God! “Then
    David and the people that were with him lifted up their voice and wept, until
    they had no more power to weep” (1 Samuel 30:4).

    The people rose up in anger, and because of their overwhelming grief, there was
    talk of stoning David. David himself was torn with grief, with not a tear left
    to shed. “And David was greatly distressed” (v. 6). They had come to the end of
    their rope, all hope gone and swallowed up in grief and despair.

    What does a child of God do when discouragement sets in and he feels useless,
    like a complete failure, abandoned by God and rejected by those who once cared?
    Believe it or not, God was in this apparent tragedy. God had incredible
    blessings ahead, but he had to be cast completely into the hands of the Lord.
    This was a situation that no amount of human resources could solve.

    “But David encouraged himself in the Lord his God” (v. 6).

    David learned to stand alone, dependent only on God and finding all he needed
    through personal communion and affection for the Lord. What a victorious
    sight—David standing amid the ruins of his life, rejoicing in God’s
    faithfulness and encouraging himself in the presence of the Lord. He came to
    see that all that really counts in the face of death and despair is a personal
    knowledge of God.

    Once the lesson was learned, God opened the heavens and spoke clearly to David.
    Directions came loud and clear. David inquired, and God answered, “Without fail
    you will recover all” (1 Samuel 30:8). There was nothing lacking—David
    recovered all.

  43. Does anyone remember Larry Norman’s song: I’d wish we’d all been ready?

  44. Hi Kitti

    Looks like you have some fond memories. God bless you.

  45. I do have fond memories, but the pastors are always saying the best days are yet to come. Where were you during this period of times? What’s your testimony. Maybe you should share it. I love testimonies. Christians used to get up and share their testimonies more during this period of time. I never get tired of hearing them. I used to think I didn’t have a testimony, but I feel different about that now. I went to someone’s funeral last summer and she had such a awesome Eulogy, I wanted to make sure the next 20 years of my life wouldn’t be wasted. I hope I could live up to things that were said about her in my life.It really spoke to me about what’s important and priorities. I haven’t gone to that many funersls.

    • hi kitti

      I was not part of the Jesus movement. On my college campus, I did not see any activity like this. I just attended a traditional church at the time, and went to school.

      after college, I went out on my own in the world, worked and supported myself, and spent time in the word in my spare time, unaware of the Jesus movement.

      It might surprise “Jesus people” that someone could be unaware of them, but I only went to a small college, and I guess the movement only focused on larger campuses.

  46. One more memory, this You Tube didn’t go through for some reason.

  47. God’s always doing a New Work and the Jesus Movement never died it turned into the Harvest Crusades at Stadiums. I miss those huge responses of alter calls at Churches. Maybe you weren’t aware of it at the time because you are from back east and it began in California. It wasn’t on the college campuses per se. I was in highschool. It began with the hippies and drug culture.Calvary Chapel is worldwide now with over 1000 churchss in the United States. There is even a Calvary Chapel Jerusalem, although the web site has been removed.


    Calvary Chapel Jerusalem



  48. I hope you don’t mind me posting all these videos, but I just ran across another song from that err. I’ve been enjoying the songs and testimonies, even if no one else it. I’m glad I have a place to post them. Thanks.

  49. I looked up the history of Maranatha Music:


    It’s something else that we can get this information so easily

  50. I didn’t know Larry Norman passed away in 2008 at the age of 60. That is so young. Here’s a song for Abigail, since she likes the subject of Ufo’s and post videos on them all the time.


  51. Here’s a goodbye song from him. I never heard this song before, but when you like someone, you like most of their music. Farewell, Larry. I can’t wait to meet you in person in heaven someday.

  52. When you say you attended a traditional church during this time, was it a Bible teaching church? I grew up in a denominational church, that did not teach the Bible. I learned Bible stories in my elementary years.When I look back on those years we even were taken out of school during the week; Catholics and Protestants and went in a bus to get some kind of religious training. It’s amazing how things have changed. The church I attended before the Jesus Movement was a liturgical church, common book of prayer with a lot of ritual.

    • Thank God the Jesus movement died.
      It took a vulnerable people and stole their last dime and hope.

    • hi kitti

      I went to a denominational church that presented 2 readings a week, then the sermon was on that. I then attended Sunday school.

      I also attended the church school for high school, and had a “religion class” in with my curriculum.

      So, in a way, I got something from all of it. But I found there were portions of the bible that were never taught, so I embarked out on my own from there.

  53. I think I demonstrated by the above videos it didn’t die. I’m planning on volunteering for the first time at the Harvest Crusade August 4-6 at Angel Stadium. It was, it is and will continue to be a powerful worldwide reaching movement of God in these last days.


  54. It’s too bad you had something negative to say about the Jesus Movement. A lot of people got saved and still are. You didn’t even comment on the song I said made me think of you. (Larry Norman’s UFO SONG) It wasn’t a negative comment either. Did you listen to it? Obviously not.

    • Sorry Kitti … never meant to be offensive.

      The past is the past … It’s like the trickle which started the river.
      I attended Jesus 1978 in Mercer, Penn. It was a great time.
      We ran out of ice and it was hot.
      Over 100,000 thousands in a farmers’ field.
      Great speakers and musicians. Everyone had their tent and the richer had their home on wheels.
      Nevertheless we as a people were all happy and in a trance like state. We ate together, we sang together, we danced together, we got baptized together, we clapped together all in all it was a good time.
      Everyone had their bumper stickers ‘Jesus saves’. And He does.
      It was a festive time and I am glad I was part of it.

      But from there, after a five day festival everyone went back to whatever.
      The rest of the road required something else.
      I have loved those days as I have loved my youth.
      But we have grown up since … and my sandals have worn out.
      My daughter who then slept with me is now 40 years old.

      All I meant to say Kitti is thank God those days have gone by.
      We are now swimming in an ocean …
      There was a reason for the kindle which was fired up …
      Many ambers just plainly burned out.

      Some of us were fanned with a wind which dies not.
      Wind only makes the trunk stronger.

      It’s too bad you viewed what I said as negative.
      It was not intended as such.

      Here let me explain further.
      It was a dream, I stood by the river with my white towel.
      The river was murky and muddy … yet I saw people standing in the middle of it.
      I wondered why they were there …
      Now and then the current would pick up a body of a woman , a child or a man and carry it in its flow.
      I watched where they would end up.
      Unseen by those standing in the river was a wheel like turbine downstream that was waiting to tare them up in pieces.
      And as I watched I saw a man who truly loved the people stuck in the river and he would go and fetch the one who just was stolen by the current and bring them back with the others in the muddy waters.
      But they all stayed in the muddy waters.
      Then I noticed someone beside me on the shore.
      He asked me why was I planning to wash my body in those muddy waters and dry it with the clean and bright towel he had provided for me.

      See how I view things my dear Kitti.

  55. You explained yourself, thank you. For me the Jesus Movement is where I discovered “My First Love” this verse comes to mind: Revelation 2:4-5 But I have this against you,that you have left your first love, Remember therefore from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did at first, or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place. Whenever I start to become lukewarm ect I try to remember those days when it wss fresh, exciting, everyone was sharing the Gospel, street witnessing, because we really believed Jesus was coming at any momemnt.Chuck Smith is the only pastor I know that is always saying “Jesus is Comintg” constantly. The movie “Like a Thief in the Night” came out. I think I am still supposed to live my life like that: another scripture comes to mine: John 3:1 it has not been revealed as yet what we shall be like, but we know that when he shall be revealed we shall be like him, because we shall see him as He is. And everyone who has this hope fixed on him, purifies himself just as he is pure. That is what the Jesus movement represents for me; The Revelation that Jesus is coming back, could come at anytime and that I need to be ready. I guess that’s why I’m always interested in prophecy. I guess for others it was a shallow experience that fell on shallow ground and did not last. I get really sad when I hear people criticise it. There’s no gimmick really to it. The emphasis is on the Bible; verse by verse, chapter by chapter.

    • P.S. I did listen to the song. Thanks!
      Prophecy is the Spirit of Christ.
      As He was rejected then … He is still rejected now.

      A Word from God is never a mile long.
      One Word is all He needs because of the Power of His Spirit in that One Word.
      So many lusts after prophecy to dress their flesh.
      That is not the Way of The Holy.

  56. http://www.larrynorman.com/

  57. Did you know Randy Stonehill and Keith Green are Jewish? I didn’t know that. I was listening to this interview of Larry Norman. I thought I knew everyone who was Jewish. What a crack up!


  58. Last Days Ministries > Keith Green
    So You Wanna Be A Rock Star

    by Keith Green

    For as long as be could remember, Keith Green’s greatest dream was to be a musical success. After be gave his life to Jesus, however, he felt the need to surrender those dreams and aspirations by laying down his music…perhaps never to perform publicly again.
    Ironically, when sometime later he felt God release him to pick up his music again, he soon had a recording contract and his first album soared straight to the top of the Contemporary Christian Music charts.
    The following message was birthed out of Keith’s encounters with those who approached him, usually after a concert, to ask how they too could “make it big” in Christian music.

    Today, so many people ask me if I can tell them how they can start or enter into a music ministry. At concerts I get countless questions about this, and I also get lots of letters and even some long-distance phone calls from many people who feel they are only “called” into the music “ministry.” One day I began to ask myself why so few have ever asked me how to become a missionary, or even a local street preacher, or how to disciple a new believer. It seems everyone would prefer the “bright lights” of what they think a music ministry would be, rather than the mud and obscurity of the mission field, or the streets of the ghetto, or even the true spiritual sweetness of just being a nobody whom the Lord uses mightily in small “everyday” ways.
    Are You Willing?

    My answer to their question is almost always the same. “Are you willing to never play music again? Are you willing to be a nothing? Are you willing to go anywhere and do anything for Christ? Are you willing to stay right where you are and let the Lord do great things through you, though no one may seem to notice at all?” They all seem to answer each of these questions with a quick “yes!” But I really doubt if they know what their answer entails.
    Star Struck

    My dearest family in Jesus…why are we so star struck? Why do we idolize Christian singers and speakers? We go from glorifying musicians in the world, to glorifying Christian musicians. It’s all idolatry! Can’t you see that? It’s true that there are many men and women of God who are greatly anointed to call down the Spirit of God on His people and the unsaved. But Satan is getting a great victory as we seem to worship these ministers on tapes and records, and clamor to get their autographs in churches and concert halls from coast to coast.

    Can’t you see that you are hurting these ministers? They try desperately to tell you that they don’t deserve to be praised, and because of this you squeal with delight and praise them all the more. You’re smothering them, making it almost impossible for them to see that it’s really Jesus. They keep telling themselves that, but you keep telling them it’s really them, crushing their humility and grieving the Spirit that is trying to keep their eyes on Jesus.

    Ultimately, what we idolize we ourselves desire to become, sometimes with our whole heart. So a lot of people who want to become just like their favorite Gospel singer or minister, seek after it with the same fervor that the Lord demands we seek after Him! And again, we insult the Spirit of Grace and try to make a place for ourselves, rather than a place for Jesus.
    A Thankless Job

    How come no one idolizes or praises the missionaries who give up everything and live in poverty, endangering their lives and families with every danger that the “American dream” has almost completely eliminated? How come no one lifts up and exalts the ghetto and prison ministers who can never take up an offering, because if they did they would either laugh or cry at what they’d receive?
    How come?

    Because (1) we’re taught from very early on that comfort is our goal and security… and (2) that we should always seek for a lot of people to like us. Who lives less comfortably and has had less friends and supporters than the selfless missionaries who have suffered untimely, premature deaths trying to conquer souls and nations for the whole glory of God? Do you really believe we’re living in the very last times? Then why do you spend more money on Gospel records and concerts than you give to organizations that feed the poor, or to missionaries out in the field?

    There are ministries all over the world where “penniless” people are being saved and transformed. They are broken people who have promise and qualities, but just need someone to bring them God’s light during the times when their lives seem so completely hopeless.

    I repent of ever having recorded one single song, and ever having performed one concert, if my music, and more importantly, my life has not provoked you into Godly jealousy (Romans 11:11) or to sell out more completely to Jesus!

    Quit trying to make “gods” out of music ministers, and quit desiring to become like them. The Lord commands you, “Deny yourself take up your cross daily, and follow me” (Luke 9:23). My piano is not my cross, it is my tool. I’d never play it again if God would show me a more effective tool in my life for proclaiming His Gospel.[God gives us each our own unique tools. But we may never use them if we become more interested in someone else’s. Seek God, ask Him for His plan for ministry (true, God glorifying ministry) in your life.]

    To finish, let me say that the only music minister to whom the Lord will say, “Well done, thy good and faithful servant,” is the one whose life proves what their lyrics are saying, and to whom music is the least important part of their life. Glorifying the only worthy One has to be a minister’s most important goal!

    Let’s all repent of the idolatry in our hearts and our desires for a comfortable, rewarding life when, really, the Bible tells us we are just passing through as strangers and pilgrims in this world (Hebrews 11:13), for our reward is in heaven. Let’s not forget that our due service to the Lord is “… not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake”(Phil. 1:29).

    Amen. Let us die graciously together and endure to the end like brave soldiers who give their lives, without hesitation, for our noble and glorious King of Light.

  59. To the author of this piece: first off, EXCELLENT work! Secondly, would you please be so kind to email me at dahorton@kbckc.org

    I’m a Doctoral student who is considering on writing my Dissertation on the Jesus Movement and its effects (or lack thereof) 40 years later.


  60. The Jesus movement did not die. The goats went home but the sheep grew up. I wish I had time to read all the posts here. God saved me in 1971 and I became part of the Jesus movement. I haven’t changed my mind about anything God did for me. I work with kids telling them about Jesus.

  61. Visit my blog for a great convo, Do you think that God’d heart still hurts?

  62. 1973 – Inside the mind of a “Jesus Person”

    Wow, that “Love Song” concert was groovy, man. They are Right On! The Holy Trinity isn’t “Jesus, Paul, and Chuck”. Besides Jesus, all the characters in the Bible had frailties- like Jonah and Paul. God told them to go one way, and they disobeyed God and did the opposite.

    But what do I do with this truth? I don’t know of a single church that simply teaches the Bible simply and preaches the whole counsel of God, including Paul’s sins and mistakes. They all teach “we should be like Paul” and “we should listen to Paul” without examining Paul’s life and Paul’s teachings in the light of the teachings of Jesus in Scripture. They all make Paul and his teachings the one absolute standard of right and wrong, rather than God’s commandments and the testimony of Jesus. They make Paul the center, not Jesus. I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that it’s taboo to mention Paul’s sins in church?

    How can I make them understand that they should deal with “Paul Worship” the same way that I deal with smoking weed? When I’m at the beach with the hip crowd, I won’t take a stand in public. I won’t say “I’m high on Jesus, and so using a mind-altering drug for recreational purposes is wrong, because Jesus is better.” I don’t want to be rejected by my peers. So I’ll smoke with them, but I won’t let the weed alter my own mind, because “I didn’t inhale!” In order to be accepted in the Establishment church fellowship, you have to smoke the weed of “Paul Worship”- just be true to yourself and “don’t inhale.”

    Maybe I could speak in code, like they did in the New Testament church with the fish symbol. I could just say “Jesus is our model.” But never discuss the Scriptures that show why Paul is NOT our model. Then the Paulist Establishment church won’t persecute me, but the other Jesus People will know that I’m still keeping the faith and “not inhaling.”

    What I really need is a short catchy slogan to let my fellow hippies know what is expected of them in the Establishment Church now in 1973, regarding the issue of Paul the Pharisee’s sins. Lets see……. “If you don’t ask about Paul’s sins, I won’t tell about them”…. hmmm. Kind of long and wordy. I need to refine that. Maybe there is someone I could bounce this off, to get some ideas. I know! My buddy has a new friend from a Baptist background that seems really smart and good with words. I don’t think he’s involved in church much, but I could talk with that guy. Clinton. What was his first name? One syllable, beginning with a consonant…. George Clinton?… maybe not. Anyway, I’ll talk with Clinton and see if he has an idea for a short catchy slogan- maybe boiled down to four words or so…

    It’s not easy for me now in 1973, as a young man just trying to start out in ministry. We’re in a recession, the economy is terrible, jobs are scarce, immorality is rampant, and in many ways the country is falling apart. For years now America has been stuck in a seemingly endless, unwinnable guerilla war in an Asian nation that borders China. The Middle East is very unstable. Based on what’s happening in Israel, it looks like Jesus could be returning soon.

    I don’t have any position or influence in the Christian world. I know from the Scriptures that “Paul Worship” is wrong, but the entire Church Establishment says it’s right. Who am I to challenge hundreds years of false man-made tradition, like Jesus, Martin Luther, Columbus, Copernicus and Galileo? I don’t want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family).

    I really will “Stand up, stand up for Jesus, and wave his banner high”- just not right now in 1973. Later, when I’m at the height of my career, and I’m financially secure and I don’t have to worry about finding a job or keeping my job, and I have some real influence- maybe 40 years from now, when I’m, like, in my sixties, say in around 2013- that’s when I’ll really be able to stand up for Jesus. Things will be different then. I’ll do it then.

  63. The Evangelical “Mexican Hat Dance”

    Sin is always specific, not general.
    The “Hat” is, “What were Paul’s sins?”

    The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the “Mexican Hat Dance.” (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named “El Jarabe Tapatio.”)

    A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. The man throws his huge sombrero hat on the floor, and the couple dances around it, but never steps on the hat. (The “Hat” is, “what were Paul’s sins?”) Here are the basic steps- (there may be one or two other basic steps, but they are very similar to these.)

    What were Paul’s sins?

    STEP 1) Paul said; “I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man.” [1 Timothy 1:13]

    (Response- Those were Saul’s sins, before Jesus called him. What were Paul’s sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 2) Paul said; “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst.” [1 Timothy 1:15]

    (Response- Sin is alwasy specific. What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 3) Paul said; “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” [Romans 3:23]

    (Response- Again the same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 4) Paul said; “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.” [Philippians 3:12-13]

    (Response- They say third time’s a charm. Same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 5) Paul said; “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing.” [Romans 7:15-19]

    (Response- One more time! This is getting boring. Same question; Specifically, what were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? )

    STEP 6) LOOP- REPEAT steps 1 through 5, until your dance partner gives up, the audience gets bored, or the music stops. The rule is- never step on the “Hat,” just keep dancing around it.

    • matthew

      what you say is true. paul did not want to be specific. that would have just satisfied the curious and the gossips. he left it generalized, so his situation would apply to anyone.

  64. Luke wrote the Book of Acts. (Paul did not write it.) Acts is not a Gospel, centered around the perfect actions and words of Jesus. But Acts is also a narrative, like other narratives in the Bible, revealing the sinful actions and false words of the imperfect people in its pages, like David’s adultery and murder, Peter denying 3 times he knew Jesus, and Paul… by the way, what about Paul?

    Parable of the Wacky New Religion

    “SNAKE WORSHIPPER” and “PAULIST” make plans to start their own wacky new religion, “based on the Bible”.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: I think people make too big a deal about Jesus. Who do they think he is- God? Do they think Jesus is the only way to be saved? The Bible says, “So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. ”[Numbers 21:9] People are saved by looking at a snake. What do we need Jesus for? We should just keep it simple.

    PAULIST: Right on! Who needs a “Jesus Movement?” I say what we really need is a “Paul Movement!” But as to your comment, I think Christians would say that the salvation referred to there was only temporary salvation from snake poison, for the Israelites at a particular time. And it pointed to the future, to Jesus dying on the cross to save us from our sins.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Don’t confuse the issue with facts! That verse is my favorite verse in Scripture. It says it right there in black and white. So my personal interpretation of this one verse is the trump card that negates all other verses of Scripture about salvation. Are you questioning the inerrancy of the Holy Scriptures?

    PAULIST: Of course, you must be right! If you quote one verse out of context, insist that it means something that contradicts other verses of Scripture, and then accuse me of questioning the inerrancy of Scripture if I disagree with your personal interpretation, than you must be correct. How foolish of me. Please continue.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: So that’s it. Just look to the serpent and be saved. Never mind about Jesus.

    PAULIST: But the Bible tells us: “He (King Hezekiah) broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it.” [2 Kings 18:4] So Christians would say that this snake had become an idol, which the godly King Hezekiah destroyed.
    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Bah! Hezekiah was like Judas, who betrayed the true salvation! We snake worshippers know better. We must restore true worship.

    PAULIST: OK. If that is your personal interpretation of one verse of Scripture, then you must be correct. But my favorite verses of Scripture are from Paul writing to the church in Corinth: “In Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me.” [1 Corinthians 4:15-16]

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: But Christians would remind us what the Bible says: “Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: ‘The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach… They love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi’. But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi’, for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth ‘father”, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called ‘teacher’, for you have one Teacher, the Christ (or Messiah).’” [Matthew 23:1-3, 7-10]

    PAULIST: Don’t confuse the issue with facts! Those 2 verses from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians are my favorite verses in Scripture. It says it right there in black and white. So my personal interpretation of these two verses is the trump card that negates all other verses of Scripture. Are you questioning the inerrancy of the Holy Scriptures?

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Of course, you must be right! If you quote two verses out of context, insist that they mean something that contradicts many other verses of Scripture, and then accuse me of questioning the inerrancy of Scripture if I disagree with your personal interpretation, than you must be correct. How foolish of me. Please continue.

    PAULIST: So that’s it. Paul is our father, and we should “be like Paul”. Paul also testified about himself without any other witnesses: “Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.” [1 Corinthians 11:1] So that has to mean that to “be like Paul” is the same thing as to “be like Christ”, and Paul lived a perfect life as a Christian, everything Paul did was 100% correct and everyone around him was wrong, and Paul is our perfect model for life and ministry. Unless all men speak well of Paul and everything Paul ever did, said, or wrote about himself, they are heretics who are denying the inerrancy of Scripture. What other possible interpretation could there be?

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Yes of course! That is the only possible choice. Well since we’re starting our own wacky new religion, we need some of the trappings of religion. How about a slogan and a rallying cry?

    PAULIST: I’ve got it! “There is no god but the serpent, and Paul is his prophet”! Our rallying cry can be “Paul is great!”

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: That has a familiar ring to it somehow…

    PAULIST: We’ll make people take a religious pilgrimage once in their lives- we’ll call the pilgrimage the “Journey of Paul”. It will go from Galatia (present day Turkey) to Antioch (present day Syria) and to Jerusalem, so we can “be like Paul” and do the things Paul did.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Tell me more.

    PAULIST: In Galatia, the pilgrims will go and circumcise some young men, [Acts 16:3] and then yell at them “You foolish Galatians” [Galatians 3:1] because they got circumcised.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: But in the Bible, Paul taught passionately, over and over, that Christians should never be circumcised under any circumstances, and Jesus said “Anyone who says ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.” [Matthew 5:22]

    PAULIST: What are you, a liberal? Only liberals criticize Paul. Conservatives have an instant, airtight justification for everything Paul ever did or said. If you criticize Paul that means you’re a liberal who is attacking Jesus.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Of course- carry on.

    PAULIST: At Antioch, the pilgrims must have a sharp disagreement and part company with whomever they are with. [Acts 15:39] If they are married, they must get divorced. If they have children, they must disown them. If they are with friends, they must separate.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: But in the Bible, Paul wrote to Timothy “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing.” [1 Timothy 2:8]

    PAULIST: Paul meant for that to apply to everyone else except him. Paul is an exception. Paul is always the exception to the rule. If Paul disputed, he must have been right. Remember in the inerrant Scripture, Paul testified about himself “follow my example”.

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: Yes of course.

    PAULIST: Luke records Paul as saying “compelled the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem.” [Acts 20:22] So since Paul said this about himself, that has to mean it was true, and we should “be like Paul.”

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: But Luke, who was personally traveling with Paul to Jerusalem at that time, also wrote “Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem.” [Acts 21:4]

    PAULIST: What are you, a left-wing liberal heretic who is attacking Jesus and the Bible?

    SNAKE WORSHIPPER: OK. Lets just keep true to our foundations as a religion. Just look to the serpent and be saved. Paul is our father, and we should “be like Paul”.

    • matthew

      this is a very confusing imaginary dialogue, with sarcasm added, which takes away from your point, and does not help it any.

      snake worshipper is too fictitious and I do not understand what he or the Paulist are talking about….it rambles….

      if you think Paul is inconsistent , then just point out the scriptures, and show how they contradict the words of jesus

  65. Which is the greatest commandment in the Law?
    Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.” [Matthew 22:36-40, Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18]

    Of all the commandments, which is the most important?
    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “ is this: ‘Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than THESE.” [Mark 12:28-31, Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18]

    But, in contrast, Paul didn’t know the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus. Paul made up his own rule. Paul wrote:
    “The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18]

    And again, Paul wrote:
    “He how loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this ONE RULE: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” [Romans 13:8-10, Leviticus 19:18]

    Jesus said it’s TWO commandments, with the greatest, most important, first command to 1) first, love God with everything you’ve got, and 2) second, love people.
    Paul said no, it ONE commandment- to love people.

    Paul was wrong. Jesus is right. I’m following Jesus. How about you?

    • I would agree on this. From what I can read, he did not mention the first commandment. He did mention the love of God for the believer, but did not mention that this love should be returned. If we do not love God, then disobedience is easier..

  66. I’m glad we both agree with Jesus.
    Here are more of Jesus’ teachings compared with Paul’s teachings.
    “He who as an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”

    Did Jesus come to ABOLISH the Law or the Prophets, or to FULFILL them?
    JESUS: Matthew 5:17-20
    PAUL: Ephesians 2:15 Colossians 2:14

    male AND female?
    JESUS: Matthew 19:4-6
    PAUL: Galatians 3:28

    What does it prove if someone says “Jesus is Lord”?
    JESUS: Matthew 7:21-23
    PAUL: 1 Corinthians 12:3

    • I guess this is a quiz……

      Paul vs Jesus

      Mat 5:17
      ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
      Mat 5:18
      For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
      Mat 5:19
      Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Eph 2:15
      Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
      Col 2:14
      Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
      Mat 19:4
      And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
      Mat 19:5
      And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
      Mat 19:6
      Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder

      Gal 3:28
      There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


      Mat 7:21
      ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

      Mat 7:22
      Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
      Mat 7:23
      And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

      1Cr 12:3
      Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

  67. Paul, “the accuser of the brothers” [Revelation 12:10]

    God no longer sees the PRE-CONVERSION sins of real followers of Jesus- we have been born again. God will not remind us of what we were, or specific sins we did before we repented and came to know Jesus personally – we have been adopted into the family of God, as a new creation with a new Spirit.

    It would be insulting to say that God “can’t remember”, or “forgot”, because that would mean that God forgot parts of the Bible. (Think about it.) However, God CHOOSES not to remember or bring up the specific sins done by his children BEFORE we were adopted into his family. Before we knew Jesus personally, we didn’t have the Holy Spirit in us- of course we acted badly. But God washed our sins away when we put our faith in Jesus as our one Lord and Savior.

    However, Paul the Pharisee gossiped about brothers in the church in Corinth, writing about their specific PRE-CONVERSION sins, bringing up what they were and what they did BEFORE they knew Jesus. Paul wrote:
    “Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards…” [1 Corinthians 1:26]

    Then in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Paul lists a number of very specific, repulsive, “uncool” sins, followed by “ And this is what some of you were.” (I’m not going to repeat Paul’s malicious gossip that he wrote in these verses- you can look it up yourself.)

    Why does Paul have to bring these things up? Since God chooses not to remember these pre-conversion sins of his children in his church, why is Paul the Pharisee bringing them up and accusing the brethren?

    Paul did write about his own “tough guy macho man” sins in a letter.
    “I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man.” [1 Timothy 1:13]
    But again, why? God has covered those pre-conversion sins, and God won’t bring them up. So why does Paul do that? Because underneath, he’s really proud of what a “bad boy” is was, and he wants to promote his image?

    No other New Testament author gossiped the way Paul did, bringing up the specific pre-conversion sins of real followers of Jesus. And most importantly, NEITHER DID JESUS.

    (Telling the woman caught in adultery “Go and sin no more” is not bringing up her specific sin, regardless of when or if she came to saving faith in Jesus. And the Samaritan woman at the well with five husbands was not a follower of Jesus when they had their first conversation.)

    So do you want to follow the example of “Paul the accuser”?
    Or follow the example of Jesus?

  68. The main article here isn’t accurate. I was deep in the 70’s Jesus movement. The ideal was to return to New Testament Christianity, were they had all things in common, and there was no one among them who had need of anything, because everyone was selling what possessions they had and laying the proceeds at the apostles’ feet WHO WOULD DISTRIBUTE TO EVERYONE AS THEY HAD NEED. There was some of this going on, but there are no more apostles, so the money people gave was in a GOOD Jesus community distributed by a group of disciples who had proven themselves through their selfless service to Jesus and the communities of believers to be trustworthy to distribute according as anyone had need. The PROBLEM I saw and my wife saw, was that in most (not all) of the Jesus communities, wolves, or more accurately the Fat Sheep from Ezekiel wormed their way into the communities and manipulated their way to the top where they controlled the power and the money. In communities of wise believers their deviant behavior was discerned early on and they were denied control of funds or other people, or if they were really unrepentant of their love of Mammon and control, they were made to leave the communities unless and until they had truly changed their ways. But they had a couple of advantages: one was the conventional churches used these “Fat and abusive sheep” to get the true believers into organized churches whose leaders were concerned about the fact that disciples of the real Jesus filled with the real Holy Spirit were not easy to manipulate into the “organized churches of Christendom” who saw potential “tithers” (a non-New covenant doctrine) using their money for what Jesus said to do with it (share as everyone had need) instead of feeding the “Corporation of Christendom”. They did everything they could to corral what was a real move of the real Holy spirit into their cash cows (church buildings) to feed their twisted corporation (If you don’t know what I mean please read the book by Greg Boyd called “The Myth of a Christian Religion”. They used twisted anti-christian teachings such as “shepherding” and “prosperity teaching” to guilt trip and lure real believers into their sick churches. Remember, when something doesn’t make sense, it’s usually because someone’s trying to make a lot of money. Another big deception that the established (especially fundamentalist ) churches used on the people committed to the New Testament model Jesus communities was to say that they were practicing “communism”. I had a 2nd cousin in the John Birch Society who was big on this tactic. Bob Mumford and the Florida 5 had a lot of negative influence on destroying the movement by introducing their destructive heresies to those who were pastors or elders within the communities (Face it, being told that how well people submitted to you was the measure of how submitted they were to Christ was a temptation to take an unbiblical control over people that many of the elder brothers and sisters in these communities could not resist. I was in a community in which the Bob Mumford teachings began to be the most important teachings in the community. Mumford was (and still is) quoted by these “elders” as much or more than the New Testament itself when referencing reasons for their actions.) Many in the communities saw what was going on and confronted the elders but to no avail. By the time we figured out what was going on and where this teaching originated it was too late. We who spotted and pointed out the heresy were ostracized and the elders used fear tactics (not reasoning from scripture) to threaten anyone who would talk to us.

    I don’t know if any Jesus communities still exist.
    Historically Genuine movements of the Holy Spirit pop up, then are either persecuted into extinction or exile or defamation, or are corrupted by the major churches of the satanic kingdom of “Christendom” (Again, read “The Myth of a Christian Religion” for a really accurate chronicling of what I’m referring to within 50 years or so. The longest lasting move of the Holy Spirit in history is from the time of the resurrection of Jesus and His ascension until about 300 AD. As one historical commentator so accurately put it ,” what Satan could not succeed at doing through 300 years by persecution, he succeeded at by giving the church political power”. How true.

    I hope in my lifetime another such move of the real Holy Spirit as began in the 1960’s will occur within my lifetime. I am skeptically hopeful. There are so many “Jesus” cults now (not small one but nationwide, even worldwide ones) that I don’t know how anyone truly seeking Jesus survives spiritually. The most dangerous one is probably the New Apostolic Reformation lead by Chuck Pierce and a host of others, mainly dangerous because they claim themselves to be a new generation of “Super-Apostals whose “revelations” are equal with or even supercede the scriptures. People seem to really love self proclaimed “spiritual authorities”. It has more appeal to the flesh than the self-sacrificing love and “leading from the bottom” example of God Himself through Jesus Christ.
    The reason I am hopeful that another real move of the Holy Spirit may occurr is that He seems to cause these moves to happen at times and through people whom the world (including the Satanically controlled “Churches” that follow the world’s Top down authority model) would least expect such a move to happen through. In the meantime, remember this: in the crystal clear tellings of what the Last Judgement will be based on and the reasons that define who is in hell and who is in God’s Kingdom, (The last judgement Jesus explained in Matthew 25 and the story of the Rich man and Lazarus) It is not so much what people DID that caused them to be condemned, but what they DIDN’T DO, particularly in relation to the afflicted and needy. REMEMBER LOVE, REMEMBER LOVING AND CARING FOR ONE ANOTHER IS HOW THE WORLD WILL KNOW WHO THE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST ARE. It’s also how you will be judged. If you have faith in jesus you will love doing what he said. The Holy Spirit will empower you. Remember too that both those who are condemned to the eternal fire and those who are welcomed into the Kingdom are both surprised as to when they did or didn’t minister to JESUS. LOVE JESUS AS THE ONLY PERFECT VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR (WHOEVER COMES ACROSS YOUR PATH WHO NEEDS YOUR HELP) as you would love yourself, or as you love Jesus. This isn’t the “social gospel” it’s THE Gospel, and cannot be divorced from salvation through faith in Jesus.

    • dear Ian

      I agree about how the church took over and changed what the holy spirit had initiated.

      I believe, like you do, that there will be another genuine outpouring, but I also believe people’s hearts will have to be broken first. The reason is that worldliness has set in, and this will have to be removed to make room for such a precious guest.

      To remove worldliness, God will have to remove what is in the world that appeals to the human heart, and so the believing and unbelieving world will suffer great losses.

      This means money, prosperity, material things, friends, homes, even food and good health.

      As creatures of comfort, we do not willingly give up these things, so they will have to be taken away from us.

      Once people only have God left in their lives, they will face their own weak natures, and be given the opportunity to find a place for the holy spirit again.

      Being filled with the spirit is a total commitment, not part time, like people have it now.

      I pray it happens soon, as many unsaved loved ones need to be brought in, and their believing family members have become powerless in their own lives.

    • Dear “Jesus Person” Ian,
      I appreciate you sharing your experience and insights. You are right about the dangers of the so-called “New Apostolic Reformation.” Only one man coined the terms “apostleship” and “super-apostles.” Paul. No one else in the pages of the New Testament ever used those words.


    • The corporate christianity (I can only assume by that term you mean the “church growth through man made strategies to get money movement”) did way more damage to the true church and organized religion in general than any of the name it and claim it garbage ever did.

  69. Why did the “Jesus Movement” die?

    Because for many, the cost was too high. So it became just another “Paul Movement” like many others through the millennia. Second Century Marcion, Fourth Century Constantine, Eighth Century Paulicians, Martin Luther and the “Reformers,” up until today.

    Just as “their fathers forgot the name of the Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah through PAUL worship,” they also “prophesied by PAUL and led God’s people astray.”

    Paul reduced “The Gospel” to a short summary statement of propositional truth (written by himself.)
    Where Jesus spoke of TWO commandments, with the greatest, most important, first command to 1) first, love God with everything you’ve got, and
    2) second, love people,
    Paul contradicted Jesus and wrote that no, it just ONE commandment- to love people.

    Paul redefined the term “The Law” and said it was abolished.

    Paul redefined the word “Apostle” to promote himself and usurp authority

    Although I have not done all the background research, I feel confident in saying that at least practically speaking in the Evangelical world, Paul writings also redefined the words “Grace” and “Faith.”

    So-called “Hyper-Grace” theology is simple. Just listen to Paul the self-appointed Apostle, and try to “be like Paul.” Ignore Jesus, ignore the Law of Moses and the Prophets, ignore everyone else- just follow Paul because Paul said so.

    That’s why the Jesus movement died. They aren’t following Jesus, they are following the “Pauls” – because it’s “profitable.”

    But look up, take hope, and rejoice!
    “He who was seated on the throne said, ‘I am making everything new!’ Then he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’ He said to me: ‘It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.’” [Revelation 21:5-7]

    • Since when do you have the authority to impose this
      Paul thing on the Jesus movement?

      the emphasis was on being like Jesus and living in communes, away from secular society.

      how old are you?

      you would have to be a certain age to even know or remember it.

      • I start to understand M perri

        1 He was robbed by someone called Paul
        2 his wife left him with someone called Paul


  70. Greetings Marianne,

    I have no authority to impose anything on a movement of your generation. You asked a question to the whole world – ‘Why did the “Jesus Movement” die?’

    I gave an answer to your question. Not THE answer. Not the best answer. Not a complete answer. Not the only answer. But AN answer. MY answer, in a respectful, appropriate, commonly accepted manner and place.

    I have understood, based on numerous sources including your words right here, that in the Jesus Movement, “the emphasis was on being like Jesus.” I agree, that is where the emphasis SHOULD be.

    I have documented here that throughout history, from the heretic Marcion in the Second Century onward, many “Christians” have put the emphasis on Paul’s teachings and being like Paul rather than “being like Jesus”.

    Now in 2014, many popular teachers in the media are pushing the “Hyper-Grace” or “Mother Grace” message, which is all about Paul’s teachings standing alone, (or a few other verses out of context from the letters of the New Testament Scripture,) largely ignoring Jesus, the Torah and the Prophets. It’s revived Marcionism.

    How old am I? I am on the leading edge of the Generation that was “born a little late” (in the eyes of YOUR generation.) When I graduated from high school, Ronald Reagan was aleady the President of the United States. I came of age in the 80’s, not the 60’s (or 70’s).

    I’m part of that awkward Generation that your generation has had such a hard time figuring out what to do with. I’m the same age as Lisa Kudrow, the actress who played the character Phoebe in FRIENDS. I’m too young to be your husband, but too old to be your son. I’m good at lisenting, and I’m willing to listen to you and your generation. I’ve been doing that for decades. But I ask that sometimes, you also listen to us, and not just brush me off because you think I couldn’t understand, since I was “born a little late”….

    Sometimes, it takes the perspective of an “outsider” to see things clearly- in a nation, a culture, a sub-culture, or a generation. Maybe, just maybe, the fact that I don’t have a “Baby Boomer” mindset makes me MORE qualified to see things objectively regarding ‘Why did the “Jesus Movement” die?’

    In any event, God gave me a voice, and I am grateful to you for letting me use it on your website – in a respectful orderly way, following the example of Jesus.

    • Matthew Perri, Maybe you should respect the wisdom and knowledge of your elders who have been walking with Jesus longer than you have.

      • The LORD Yahweh said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the PAULS, as their fathers taught them.”
        [Jeremiah 9]

    • Matthew Perri,

      from reading your incessant comments, it sounds like you have mind controlled with a “Paul was not an apostle” programming LOL.

      • truthjuice,

        Besides Paul writing about himself, can you produce another witness from the pages of the Bible that identifies Paul individually as “an apostle”?

        ( I will interpret a lack of response as an admission of the truth that, no, you can’t. Besides Paul himself, no one else in the pages of the Bible ever said Paul individually as “an apostle.” )

        The LORD bless you and keep you;
        the LORD make his face to shine upon you.

    • matthew

      Acknowledged is the “a view” presentation.

      It just seems that you ascribe this paul obsession to every aspect of christianity, and I was hoping you had some documentation for your assignment of the paul obsession in the jesus movement.

      From what I saw, the jesus people became secularized, which was the main issue they were trying to avoid to begin with.

      don’t be bitter….I try to keep people in balance, and let them present their views, even if i don’t agree with them.

      self expression is one important thing with me….I try not to suffocate people or censor them, unless they saying something horrible, or show disrespect for god……but I do try to bring balance by playing the opposite view.

  71. Marianne

    Here is some specific documentation, quoted from a DVD:
    “Love Song” 1973
    “My image of Jesus was that he was way up here and then Saint Paul was down here- and here was I. And how was I ever going to get there with those guys. And a Saint was something that I thought was this person who went around never doing anything wrong, just living this perfect sinless life. Then I found out later on, it really blew my mind to read in the Bible you know, when I first really read the Bible, I realized that these people had frailties, that they blew it once in a while. And it was right there in Scripture. I thought that everybody that was ever mentioned in the Bible was some holy person. And then you read about all the guys that blew it.”

    Later, when the lead singer was speaking, he said, QUOTE:
    “The Trinity isn’t Jesus, Paul, and Chuck.”

    Quoted from “Jesus People Live Concert, Love Song 73 (DVD video), Bonus: Includes a reprint of the original Living Water Tract by Greg Laurie.” By The Word For Today, http://www.twft.com (The group “Love Song” ministered under Chuck Smith at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa on and off between 1970 and July 10, 2009.)

    So in 1973, “Love Song” is in agreement here with the exhortation of the humble author of Hebrews, who intentionally chose to remain anonymous but was a contemporary of the Paul the Pharisee. “Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” [Hebrews 13:7-8]

    This public comment “The Trinity isn’t Jesus, Paul, and Chuck” didn’t just come out of thin air- but it would have been costly to challenge the status quo, and therefore, like so many before, they decided to play “don’t ask don’t tell” with Paul’s sins.

    Is this the kind of documentation you are looking for?

    • no

      I do not see in your quotes where they were exalting Paul over Jesus….they made some stupid remarks, but that is about it.

      these were hippie ex drug addicts…they used to make all sorts of weird remarks….

      • Right Marianne,

        In their public comments in 1973, they were NOT exalting Paul over Jesus. They were indirectly pointing to the fact that some other people around them WERE making the Holy Trinity “Jesus Paul and Chuck” and they were saying indirectly this was wrong.

        The lead singer got a laugh from the audience referring to Jonah, who was running away from God. Yes, that’s always safe, make fun of Jonah. Or Stupid Peter. Or talk about David’s adultery, or Solomon’s harem. Those sins are all “safe” to talk about. But what were Paul’s specific sins? Awkward silence then, awkward silence now. He played it safe. “don’t ask, don’t tell.” Never criticize Paul. Anyone else is fair game to examine, critique, ridicule, except Paul.

        Love Song knew better. But, they chose to remain silent about the hidden cult of “Paul worship” in order to advance their careers in the established church system.

        • Hey Matthew,

          Just thought I would approach the discussion of Paul on a somewhat different level. Not everything in scripture is meant to be easily understood. It would be nice and easy if everything was just about words and definitions with everything crystal clear. The problem is scripture isn’t written that way. I am not sure if you know the following or if I have mentioned it before. If so, forgive my redundancy. In interpreting the Hebrew Scriptures there are four different levels of understanding which are called PaRDeS which is an acronym:

          Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or – simpler – interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

          • Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — “plain” (“simple”) or the direct meaning.[1]
          • Remez (רֶמֶז) — “hints” or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
          • Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: “inquire” (“seek”) — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
          • Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in ‘bone’) — “secret” (“mystery”) or the esoteric/mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

          The scriptures cannot always be taken in a literal manner linking words together to form all truth contained therein. Not all things are evident and understood in a literal sense. Yah did not lay His Word on the ground and out in the open for this perverse world to walk on it and make a mockery of it. His Word is treasure which is buried, unseen to the natural eye, accessed by only those who are seeking after Him. Anyone can understand historical aspects of scripture and certain other things that are basic. But the further you delve into His Word, things aren’t so easily discerned. You have to dig and many times wait for understanding to come from outside of yourself.

          Proverbs 25:2

          2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
          But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

          It is sort of like the two links I sent to you on Ephraim=Ten Northern Tribes of Israel=The Christian Church, while Judah and Benjamin=Two Southern Tribes of Israel=The Jews= the Messianic Jews and Gentiles (both Israel) of today. The Christian Church, at least for the most part, has no understanding of any of this. If they do understand it, they usually disagree with it. This truth is concealed basically from the Christian Church and the Orthodox Jews. We actually find a case of this concealing from Yah in the fact that He, at least in part, blinded the Jews to the fact that Yahshua was their Messiah, which made the way for His crucifixion, which was for His purpose and our benefit! That blindness in the Jews stayed in place for 2000 years while they were slaughtered and tortured by the Christian Church for not renouncing Torah (the Word that Yah had given them) to receive the truth of Messiah Yahshua which had been mixed with paganism and violated Torah, the Church and the Jews not realizing that Yah had planned all of this. These aren’t just random events that just by chance worked out this way.

          In 1Kings 3:16-28 we see the incident of two harlots coming before Solomon with both having babies, with one dying causing the bereaved mother to steal the other living baby, while both mothers claimed the living child. Solomon asked for a sword to cut the baby in half, with each mother receiving their half of the child. You know the story of how the baby/the son who was decreed by the King to be cut/split in half was restored to the birth mother=the Woman=Israel in the end.

          It was not long after this incident that Solomon, with all of his wisdom, got mixed up with the women of the idolatrous nations, prompting Yah to split the Kingdom of Israel into the Northern and Southern Kingdom which was to last until the end of the age, when the two halves of the Kingdom would be brought back together as one, to the original birth mother=theWoman=Israel.

          All of the history and incidents that are in scripture are there for a reason. The truth of Yah is buried in all of this. We will never know it all in this life, but we can go far beyond the literal text to have a deeper meaning.

          I tend to believe that the writings of Paul fall into this category. I believe that Yah orchestrated the Jews and the Christians=the Southern and Northern Kingdoms staying apart and being reconciled “in the end”, as the story of the two harlots, and countless other scriptures conveys. How would that have happened, according to Yah’s timing, if Paul’s words were completely and correctly understood?

          It has only been since the early to middle 1900’s that Israel got their land back and now there are many in the Christian Church who are beginning to see and understand who they really are as being part of Israel, along with their Jewish brethren, both ultimately to be reconciled in Eretz Yisrael.

          I will make one last comment about Paul. We know that Paul had what he called a thorn in the flesh. The Christian Church has tried to explain this away as an illness or physical problem. That is not what a thorn in the flesh is according to scripture:

          Joshua 23:13
          • “Know for a certainty that the Lord your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.”

          Numbers 33:55
          • “But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.”

          Judges 2:3
          • “Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you..

          Paul evidently had some unresolved issues in his life and a messenger of Satan was sent to attack him. No one is perfect and neither was Paul. Did it show through in some of the personal things he said that doesn’t seem to have much corroboration from others? Maybe so. We know he had something in his life that was not resolved, but that doesn’t mean his writings aren’t true. Could it have been some sort of pride given all he had been shown? In this life we will never really know, but could it be some of the reason he spoke of himself so much. In saying that, I am not criticizing nor justifying him. I don’t quote Paul much at all because of his “seeming” anti Torah position, which is just about never received by the mainline Christian Church. But I have learned to go to others (Messianic Jews not associated with the Christian Church) who know more of the culture and language of the Hebrews, who seem to be able to make sense of what he is saying. So, for me, Paul is really not a big problem. I take that which I can from his writings to understand better the divide between the Jews and the Gentiles, and to gain understanding in the ways that the Christian Church refutes Torah through Paul’s writings, giving a logical and reasonable answer through those who know the scriptures more intimately in the Hebrew language.

          It seems to me that this kind of approach has the best opportunity of bringing some sort of understanding and reconciliation between brothers who have been exiled from each other for millennia! The rebuilding of the Tabernacle of David in these last days.


          • Hi Al,

            I appreciate your taking time to share about some larger issues of Bible interpretation. However, before I move on, I want to finish a previous discussion that seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle, regarding a specific knowable fact about the text of our 4 Gospels Matthew Mark Luke & John.

            The question we were addressing was,
            What does the term “The Law” mean TO JESUS?

            My answer, after looking at the 100 times that the word “Law” appears in my NIV exhaustive concordance in the 4 Gospels, is this:

            To Jesus “The Law” ALWAYS refers to The Law of Moses, no exceptions. To Jesus, “The Law” NEVER refers to the oral or written law of the Pharisees.

            Marianne agreed with me, and no one in the world has disagreed. Do you also agree?

            • Hey Matthew,

              Well, I see my response to you was either rejected or misunderstood or both. Your response was quick and matter of fact and you seem somewhat irritated and upset. That is not my intent with all of this and I don’t feel that way. It seems that at this point everything boils down to the simplistic definition of one Greek word-law, with a Gentile definition alone explaining (in the Hebrew culture) at least 1700 years of controversy, the starting of a NEW religion, and bringing division to Jew and Gentile, all caused by one man, Paul! Not due to his writings directly, but rather by his (Paul’s) personal intent through his writings to destroy the Torah. With that being said, how is it that Paul was shown to be Torah observant after his conversion; the fact that Gentile converts to faith in Yahshua worshipped alongside their Jewish brethren according to Torah; the fact that in the early 3rd century, Constantine struck an agreement with the all Gentile (actually Israelite) group of believer’s in Messiah and Torah, that if they would renounce all of the Jewish things they observed (Torah) he would no longer persecute them and make “Christianity” the center piece of Rome, while allowing the pagan religions to continue and eventually mixing their doctrines into the beliefs of the believers in Messiah, bringing about the birth of modern day Christianity.

              The following Greek word “nomos” seems to be the most used word for law in the Renewed Covenant, including the words of Messiah.

              Strong’s #3551- nomos nom’-os from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals); law (through the idea of prescriptive usage), genitive case (regulation), specially, (of Moses (including the volume); also of the Gospel), or figuratively (a principle):–law.

              The following is the Jewish understanding of what the law consists of, and also about the Rabbinical Authority that had its “supposed” inception at Sinai and continues to this day in Jewish synagogues. It is fully understood to be the” law of Moses”.

              Matthew 23
              Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

              23 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim: 2 “The Torah-teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act! 4 They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them. 5 Everything they do is done to be seen by others; for they make their t’fillin broad and their tzitziyot long, 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and they love being greeted deferentially in the marketplaces and being called ‘Rabbi.’

              The implication is, the Rabbis (Torah-teachers) even in the time of Messiah would “sit in the seat of Moshe” showing them to have authority concerning the law=Torah. Then Messiah says, “So whatever they tell you, take care to do it”. But then Messiah turns around and says “don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act”. Yahshua then says, “They tie heavy loads onto people’s shoulders but won’t lift a finger to help carry them”. (for clarification-in v3 where it says “whatever THEY tell you, take care to do it” is wrong in the Greek text. This reads as if they (the Rabbis) are the final authority. But according to Matthew Shem Tov (a Hebrew translation) it reads HE in the place of THEY, with the He referring to Moses, changing verse 3 to then read-“So whatever HE (Moses) tells you, take care to do It”. The rest of the verse then makes perfect sense.

              When Messiah refers to tying heavy loads onto people’s shoulders, what is He referring to? The Oral law (Talmud), not the 613 instructions contained in the written Torah given at Sinai. The meaning of the word “law” of that day (and even today among the Jews) is singular and conveys the inclusion of both the written law and the oral law, under the definition of Torah. This is what Messiah was trying to bring to light in His time on earth. That the Torah of Yah is pure and to be obeyed by those who follow after the Elohim of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). It was the Oral law-the traditions of men (The Torah-teachers of His day), that Messiah was against. As you can see, Messiah called them Torah-teachers, but what they were teaching was both the written and the oral law of Torah.

              When it says the Rabbis “sit in the seat of Moshe”, history recounts that in many of the early synagogues there would be a stone chair next to the Torah, where the Rabbi would sit and teach, conveying they had the full authority of Moses in whatever they taught, whether it was written in the Tanakh, oral, or from the Talmud (which originated from the Oral tradition-law). It was all understood by man to be the Law=Torah, but not by Messiah and not by Paul. You have to remember, Paul was a Pharisee and knew fully and completely what he was saying and doing. If one did not know that, they would think he (Paul) at one moment would be validating Torah and at the next moment rejecting Torah, with the rejection part of this standing out more than the validation part, with the Jews condemning while the Gentiles are rejoicing.

              Below is a quote from the Babylonian Talmud, Eruvin, 21b to give an example of Rabbinical Authority:

              “My son! Be careful concerning rabbinical decrees even more than the Torah…The Torah contains prohibitions…But anyone who violates a rabbinic decree is worthy of death,”

              Also, in the introduction to the Mishnah it is written:

              “If there are 1000 prophets, all of them the stature of Eliyah and Elisha, giving a certain interpretation, and 1001 rabbis giving the opposite interpretation, you shall incline after the majority and the instruction according to the 1001 rabbis, not according to the 1000 prophets…Elohim did not permit us to learn from the prophets, only from Rabbis who are men of logic and reason.”

              The bottom line is, the Torah was understood by Israel, to be the written law (the 613 instructions) and the Oral law, both given (supposedly) at Sinai. At least that is what the people of Israel were told by the Rabbis, with the Oral law evolving according to the dictates of the Rabbis. The people believed in only one Torah, but it had two different origins; one from Yah and one from man (the Rabbis). Whether they were breaking the laws of man or the laws of Yah, it made no difference. Either way, they would be found breaking THE LAW-TORAH. It was all they knew. It was THE LAW Of MOSES of that day and still is today in many or most Jewish synagogues.

              There is no way you can take the Greek word for law, with a Greek Gentile understanding and capture the cultural, societal, and doctrinal issues which made the law what it was and still is. The simple definition of the word law is not the lynch pin if you will, that explains 2000 years of misunderstanding. According to the Peshat-literal meaning, the definition of law is useless in these discussions concerning Paul and Messiah. It is not the “smoking gun” you think it to be, at least in my opinion.

              Things hidden belong to Yahweh our God, but things revealed are ours and our children’s forever, so that we can put all the words of this Law into practice.’ Deuteronomy 29:28


              • Torah does not mean Law, in the sense unreasonable legalism.

                Torah actually means “teachings” or instructions. It is guidance.

                If people would just read the books of Moses, they would find more than just “law” in there.

                • You are right. Torah does refer to the first 5 books and the word instructions is better suited than law, which I use a lot. But given the topic at hand with Matthew, using the word law (which is the specific word Matthew has chosen to define), keeps everything on track. Some of the posts are long anyway, even without confusing the issue.

                  • Al,
                    I am not seeking to define the specific word “law.”
                    I am looking at the TERM “the law” as spoken by Jesus in the Gospels (the Red Letters) of the NIV Bible. Not the word “law.”

                    This is fairly small, defined body of text, and we can definitively make a statement about how Jesus used the TERM translated “the law” in the NIV Bible. You and Marianne and I all agree that “teachings” or “instructions” would really be a better translation than “law.” But the translation of that one word is not the issue. The issue is, how does Jesus use the TERM “the law” in the Gospels.

                    I have observed that to Jesus, in his own words, “The Law” ALWAYS refers to The Law of Moses, no exceptions. To Jesus, “The Law” NEVER refers to the oral or written law of the Pharisees.

                    Maybe I missed something in the text- but you have not pointed out anything so far, and neither has anyone else anywhere in the world. So again, I appreciate you extensive scholarship. But, you are avoiding what is actually in the text of the Red Letters, and that is what I am bringing up.

                    You wrote above, QUOTE:
                    “You have to remember, Paul was a Pharisee and knew fully and completely what he was saying and doing. If one did not know that, they would think he (Paul) at one moment would be validating Torah and at the next moment rejecting Torah.”

                    So you are assuming that Paul never contradicted himself or Jesus, and that if Paul said something it must be correct. This is exactly the demonic stronghold that I am confronting. You have been brainwashed by Paul’s writings into thinking that Paul could never be wrong. Just as Muslims are with Muhammad, and Roman Catholics are with the Pope.

                    It’s a pervasive stronghold. I understand. So lets open our Bibles to the Gospels, and agree on the facts of what is in the Red Letters, the words of Jesus himself, first. That needs to be the starting point.

                    • it is not advisable to call people brain washed when you have no proof

                      jesus talked about fruit in general…paul talked about apples…just because he did not talk about everything jesus taught, does not mean he is contradicting jesus

                    • Al & Marianne,
                      “brainwash” is a pretty strong word. I certainly have no intention to insult anyone, and no one wants to think this of himself. Here is a definition:

                      Brainwashing n. Intensive indoctrination… aimed at changing a person’s basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with a fixed and unquestioned set of beliefs.

                      So yes, I do believe that most of the Christian church has literally been brainwashed by the writings of Paul, the self-appointed “Apostle to the Gentiles” who said “the Law” was abolished. Paul is the original source of Replacement Theology.

                    • Oh my, I guess he was trolling here too.

  72. It’s time to be “Brave”
    (as Nichole Nordeman would say)

  73. Julius Caesar Crosses the Rubicon, 49 BC


  74. Are the words of any one man “Infallible” and do not need to be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses?

    Roman Catholics believe: “Yes – The Pope”
    Muslims believe: “Yes – Muhammad”
    Protestants believe: “Yes – Paul”

    I believe the words of the Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah Son of Yahweh are infallible. But even Jesus did not exempt Himself from the rule that a matter should be “established by the testimony of two or three witnesses”. In the case of Jesus, His words are recorded by the 4 Gospel writers Matthew Mark Luke & John, and established by the Law of Moses the Prophets and some Psalms in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    • Yup, I agree.
      Perri I would really like to pair up on Facebook, skype or something.
      You have some good stuff!

      My name is Anders Hinge Erichsen on facebook.

  75. If you would like to listen to the past music, check this site out…

    I have been a Christian for almost 40 years and was saved in the 70’s. The Jesus Movement Hippies in California became Preachers under Calvary Chapel’s banner. Some have even gone on to school to get their masters and doctorates.
    There is a change in the works, and I don’t know what to make of it. Papa Chuck has gone on to be with the Lord and the sheep have tried to fill his shoes, I hope someone does. We need another Chuck Smith!

  76. I was a young kid during the Jesus movement. Both of my Grandfathers were Pastors of very active Churches during that time, so I got to see alot of different aspects of the movement, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I later managed to fall in love with Jesus , not because of the movement, and definatly not because of the Church, but because He kept revealing His Word to me by the Holy Spirit.
    I have found it very ironic that during the ‘mini movements’ of today (Redding Bethel, Kansas City IHOP, Toronto) the leaders of these movements trace their spiritual roots back to the Jesus movement of the 70’s. And I have noticed how the youth(who iconize the leaders) of these movements have almost mirrored some of the aspects of the Jesus movement right down to the clothing that they wear, the style of music, their definitions of what serving God looks like, and a form of spiritualism that isn’t truly grounded in the Word of God(just the lightweight stuff because anything else is ‘unloving’). It’s almost like the leaders felt that their movement was more valid when the youth looked a certain way to them, and then somehow the kids kinda fell into this pre packaged mold that was sold to them as ‘freedom’.
    I think the Jesus movement like any movement, had different effects on different folks, but for the majority it was and is just as your article has stated. They seem to be typified by their desire to follow human leaders and very seldom do they place much credence on the obedience of God’s Word. In fact as always they are told that they are victims of religion, and legalism if they look to God’s Word as the final authority of their faith.
    Then of course any deeper spiritual experiences that come out of these movements are founded on the ideologies of the leaders of the movements. And of course none of the dreams, or visions, or spiritual revelations that the youth or any other members of these movements have, ever contradict what the movements are doing but rather they always completely support all their ways.
    It all goes back to the wheat and the chaff,…I just wish there was more seed in the sacks.
    During the last movement I think the true Church will need to stand up and preach the truth unadulterated, giving no quarter to any heresy(of course in the name of love), and just preach Christ and Him crucified and with power.


    • people are looking for an “Experience” in a group setting…..so they end up with one…

      but they need to get alone with god and one his way

      • Marianne,

        Its taken me all morning to read all these posts and listen to all that great music from my time. My comment is the Jesus movement is not gone I know because I am the Jesus movement. Not a big player but one of a million young people of this movement. In 1970 I was a young runaway who was doing all the bad stuff not worth talking about. I was approached over and over by young people and eventually went to a free concert. A special person, then a cook now a Pastor for Calvary Chapel, Took a one on one interest in me. I finally caved in to my convection. And gave my life to Jesus.
        My life was changed and I became a volunteer at many concerts working the sound at the tent and later went to work for Chuck Smith at Lake Arrowhead. I worked for YWAM, Operation Mobilization, Mexican Christian Mission and others over the years. And know this these places are infested with Jesus Freaks from the 60’s and 70’s. most are like me just out there doing what we do. We are not part of the new republican church. We don’t own guns, watch NASCAR, Dancing with the stars or FOX. Were not for war or capital punishment… That is to say the reason you no longer see the Jesus movement is because we are not part of the modern Christian movement. I hope you don’t take this to critically but the modern evangelical church holds nothing for us.

        • hi robert

          I wrote this article after I meet with some jesus movement people. all they do is sit around and talk about the good old days. they talk about evangelism, but don’t do any. they have their jobs and houses now, live for today, and think about the past.

          what you are describing is the underground church, which is away from the mainstream church. jesus still lives there.

          we call ourselves the Bride now.

          many under the old label “jesus movement” went on to become prosperity preachers, getting rich off the tithes and offering of the poor, so we do not want to be associated with that.

          • Marianne,

            Thank you for your comment, many in the movement went on to be what I call tent maker ministries, we are almost completely overlooked and for the most part we are ok with that. Most of us cannot attend church as we find ourselves no where near one on a sunday. we have to be responsible to feed ourselves and that usually happens through each other and the people that we are ministering to. of course the web is a great new option.

            • dear robert

              I am glad you are doing well….yes, there are less and less tents now.

              i always liked the tents. they had a special atmosphere.

              stay blessed.

              • You really were not from that era, in the 60’s and 70’s people like Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, Keith Green were encouraging people to find ways to support themselves with jobs that afforded them the flexibility to minister full time and work part time. many a Calvary Chapel were started this way. they called them selves Tent Makers after Paul who was a tentmaker in order that he would be self supporting (Acts 18:3) many ministers today say, of there ministries : “a workmans worth his wages”and feel that they should be paid according to their works, and as well commensurate with their contemporaries in the world. a pastor with a phd should make upwards of $150’000 as an example even though some of his flock may be starving. we live by the model to “Live simply that others may simply live” (loose Gandhi quote)

                • robert

                  I was born in 1950.

                  But I was not part of the Jesus movement….I went to a traditional church….my family went there.

                  later I left there, went back and forth due to boredom, and finally branched out on my own.

                  my last “church” was in the year 2000…it was filled with jezebel spirits and the pastor was cheating his headquarters, giving false prophecies, and splitting up the church…

                  I have now retired from any formal church attendance.

                  I do not pay tithes to any man….I give to the poor directly, and support a homeless mission now.

                  I have been to tent revivals…..which is what I was referring to… once I got burned, I stayed away from them too.

  77. Then you understand completely. not many do.

  78. The Jesus Movement is not dead!
    Jesus started the Jesus Movement and He continues to lead those who will follow, just as He did the first Apostles.
    I have just completed and had published, by Xulon Press, a book on the Jesus Movement that happened in Seattle, Washington in the late 1960s. The Jesus Movement was started by the Holy Spirit in many places around the world , but most people do not know about the great outpouring of God’s Spirit in the Pacific Northwest and in Europe which is why I felt to write this book called “Flower Power to Jesus Power”.
    The book is available with links at my new web site:


    or you can go directly to Amazon.com, Barnesandnoble.com, or other book store web sites in Europe and other parts of the world and type in the book title which is called “Flower Power to Jesus Power”. This book is based on my experiences living in many Jesus Houses, including Children of God “colonies”, and other Christian communities in the US, England, Italy and other countries, especially in Sweden.
    You can also get a copy of the Bible studies that I compiled during the days of the Jesus Movement called “Building on a Sure Foundation-Handbook for Christian Soldiers”, through the web site, that were used at the time to get new saved Christians quickly grounded in the truths of God’s Word. It is still one of the best Christian books to get a new saved Christian quickly grounded in the truths of the God’s Word, in Christian living and in understanding the End Times that we are living in.
    You can leave a note to me on the Contact Page on my web site if you have any questions or comments.
    I hope to hear from you soon.
    God bless!

    • dear dan

      I will try to take a look at the site. I originally wrote this after being in the home of former “jesus” people who were complaining that the movement had stopped.

      I think today, believers have a different face, image, and behavior than in the 60s.

  79. An interesting post too read since I grew up in that era.(just beginning my life). I’m so thankful for mmy mother in that time who encouraged me in the right direction for my future educationally, not realizing that God had his sight on me too,thankfully.
    Thanks for your article. It provided insight and understanding. I’m now going on 62 yrs. WOW!!!

  80. Hi My name is Rod,

    I found your website. So I thought I would introduce myself, and tell you how God has made me free, and share how I came to know Jesus, I’ll share several things with you, so you can know where I’m coming from, and then decide if you think I’m a nut or not. This will be a large email, sorry….

    I’ll start at the beginning….Write me back if you decide I’m not crazy.

    1. MY STORY:

    I came from a violent home, (drugs, alcohol, gun shots, being chased with knives, people thrown through picture pane windows), in fact I was born three months early because my father kicked my mother in the stomach.

    I was born weighing two pounds nine ounces.

    As early as 7yrs old, I was out on the streets till 3-4am, I was put in three orphanages…

    One night I remember, my father snuck into our house, he put a loaded pistol in my hand and told me too shoot my sisters and my mother, it was crazy.

    Through all of this, (which I wouldn’t change), I came out a fairly normal kid, I was involved in sports and didn’t do drugs, or drink. I thought I was a survivor, wanting only too make it through another day.

    In 1974 I started too sense a need in my life, an emptiness that I couldn’t explain. I knew I had to find God/Jesus, but who was HE.

    I had no idea where to find HIM, so I went to the local library to find books concerning world religions, God, and the occult.

    At the library I met an ex-hippie (Gary Osborn) he saw my books and decided to share the message with me.

    Gary invited me to pray in the back of his V.W. so I did, I remember saying “God forgive me for my sins, and whatever you have for me I want it all”.

    Well at first nothing happened I expected, lightening or something. Gary said, “Just go home and praise God” I said, “What’s that, mean” Gary said, “Just thank him” So I did just that.

    The remaining is sacred to me, before I asked Jesus into my heart, I never heard voices, I never drank, and I never did drugs, but one week after meeting Jesus while in the middle of my last class (during high school)

    A voice, just as clear, as someone standing next to you, spoke, and as the voice spoke it said to me, “rod tell them about Jesus” I was surprised, but unafraid, I put my hand over my mouth, since I didn’t want anyone to think I was talking too myself, I said (to whoever spoke to me) “I don’t know what to say” the voice said “don’t be afraid, I’ll give you the words to say”

    To this day I don’t remember my words, but I spoke to those kids about Jesus and salvation, their mouths just dropped open and then, class was over, I walked out of that room, feeling like I had never felt before.

    The next day was Saturday; I slept in the living room on an old couch. When I woke it was early and I decided to turn on the TV, to watch my favorite cartoon, the roadrunner.

    As I sat there watching the TV, I got up and looked outside, everything was so beautiful, (I never appreciated nature, I just wanted to make it thru another day). BUT now it was so pretty, I sat back down on the couch, and as I did I was somewhere else.

    I was sitting at a long roughhewn table. In front of me was God, the father. I couldn’t see him, to my left was Satan, him I could see (he looked like a man only very big) then to my right was Jesus.

    Three bowls appear, filled with what looked like porridge.

    Now the father spoke and said Satan dismiss yourself, Satan stood and screamed, then vanished. Three bites were taken out of the bowl.

    Then all at once I was watching myself from a distance, walking with Jesus up a grassy pathway. Jesus was speaking to me but from a distance I couldn’t hear him, I could see myself shaking my head (like I understand) then thru my eyes I saw the house where I had been sleeping.

    I didn’t know what had happened; I’d never experienced anything like that, but I knew two things, I had to find a pastor to talk too, and I KNEW GOD loved me and wanted something from me…my total surrender. My life totally under his control, every second, moment by moment, and I was consumed with this one desire, to live too PLEASE HIM.

    Let me give you an example: When a friend from school would come over and say, “Hey rod.” “Let’s go to a show” I’d say, “hold on.” Then I’d go in the bathroom and pray, “Lord should I go?” Sometimes the Lord would say “go”, sometimes “no”

    At times He was silent, when this happened I would look inside, to my heart, (Spirit), (see Colossians 3:15) if I had peace I would go, If not, I’d stay home.

    As I practiced this new desire, (surrender), I noticed the voice of the Lord became more frequent and clearer, (John 10:27). It always had to agree with scripture. The word of the Lord will always agree with the true meaning and / or the true interpretation of scripture).

    I knew I needed to get a bible. So I went to a bookstore and I got the largest family bible I’d ever seen, with pictures and everything. I was so happy.

    That night the voice of the lord said, “Read Matthew 5.” I had to look in the contents; I didn’t know where Matthew was.

    When I found it and started to read, the words became a (“Word of the Lord to me”) they just jumped off the page, they seemed to come alive, and they filled me, with hope, love and peace. Now I knew God loved me, and my sins were gone, I was forgiven…

    As time passed I grew, sometimes I’d walk into a busy office or building (like a D.O.L) and the Lord would say go sit by that guy.

    I would strike up a conversation, then say “you don’t know me but I’m a Christian and God is going to share with me about your life” I don’t mean simple things like “you have the flu” or “Headaches”, but deep, personal things that others couldn’t know or even guess.

    People would usually start to cry and ask “how did you know?” I’d say “I didn’t but God knew”.

    One day I wanted to go from PA to Atlantic City. There was a fellowship in a brothers house.

    When I got to Atlantic City, God said “Rod, when you get to the prayer meeting tonight I want you to give all your money, to Johnnie Diaz”. I said “Lord that’s all I’ve got?” (About 300.00)

    God replied; “you take care of your brothers and sisters in the Lord and I’ll take care of you.” So upon arriving in Atlantic City, I secretly gave all my money to Johnnie, (this was to cover something for Johnnie that was very personal, so I know he didn’t share this with anyone).

    That night I asked myself “how am I going to get back to work, tomorrow? I didn’t have a penny, not even enough for bus fare, and in my spirit I knew I wasn’t to hitch hike, but instead the Lord wanted me on the bus.

    After sleeping that night and leaving the brothers house the next day, (where the meeting had been held), I started walking to the bus station.

    As I got closer and closer, I was imagining, “is the drivers going to just “know” he’s supposed to let me ride for free?” But as I approached the depot, a brother named “Chicky” came out of his house and said “rod I think the Lord wants me to give this to you.” It was exactly what I needed for bus fare!

    This has been a short summary of my life.

    2. I remember one day, saying to myself. *I should read my bible more, and then I heard (I use the word heard for explanation purposes only. This is VERY HARD to describe) the following. Do not do that!

    Now I somehow understood, the deeper meaning of what was coming to me. It wasn’t that I should not read my bible. I love reading it, and want to read it more. The Lord has no problem with that, depending on your motive.

    But the fact was I was NOT suppose to shine the cup. In fact I was to do NOTHING to improve the vessel. I was NOT to stop anything THAT I THOUGHT NEEDED CURBING. This included dropping something and saying “shit”, or driving down the road and calling someone an idiot for driving like one.

    Now at first I rebelled against this, but my faith made me see, The Lords control over every area of my life.

    Then I saw it clearly. He is the one who cleanses, He is the vine dresser, He is the savior, He is the husband, He is the shepherd. I am the flock, the clay, the wife, the vine.

    I was to ONLY RESPOND to Him, and His nudging, or His voice. WHEN I did something that He wanted to change, He would let me know…Thus I would NOT establish my own righteousness, nor become religious.

    Now months later, I still rest, and I don’t do many of those things I used to do, a few months ago, but ALL the changes came thru Him, in His way, and in His timing.

    Spiritual things and this life is soooo simple, yet we must stay close to him, for many would have approved of my *original response, when the Lord said NO.

    3. Life come from Jesus, let me give you an example of His live, the time was years ago, but that doesn’t matter, for this is just for example sake.
    I was on the east coast, I wanted to go to a fellowship at a brother house. It was so fun then, cuz God always showed up.

    So I went to the highway, I was going from Philly to Atlantic City, and decided to hitch rides.

    I got 5 rides packed with kids and adults, and as I got into each car I told them “I am a Christian and God is going to bless you for picking me up”

    God did too, for in that span of an hour and a half, 15-20 people got saved, born again in their cars as we drove down the highway.

    God told me very intimate (secret) details about each of them, as we drove along.

    They all started to cry, guys and girls, asking me “how did you know those things about me”.

    I said I didn’t but God did, and he loves you.

    4. I was on the head of a beast, in a large body of water (Like the ocean).

    It was night and the darkness was so real it could be felt. The clouds above were very thick and black.

    The beast was thrashing as if it wanted to throw me off. I was so afraid! I was holding on as tight as I could.

    Then I looked up, and when I did, the clouds opened and rays of light came through the clouds, with the light came that voice that I had heard before and knew so well.

    He said “Rod; if I’m ever to use you, I must break you”!

    I woke, wet with sweat, and shaking…Saying as I woke, “thank you, Lord you haven’t forgotten me”

    5. I was sure God could no longer love me, my sins so great.

    So let me tell you of two break throughs on the way to where I am now.

    Years ago I was invited to a church, the guest speaker was from Poland, his English was OK, but it was with a heavy accent.

    After the service he invited people up for prayer, so I went forward.

    He prayed for me and as he did, he whispered my secret sins into my ear.

    Now I knew he was hearing from God. Then he speaks in first person to me and, he says “I see your sin, but I also see your heart, I have not forsaken you, nor have I rejected you”.

    I started to weep, and praised God for his mercy. But this troubled me too. How could Jesus say these things when it was my sin that sent him to the cross?

    Now one more example, this happened many years later…

    I always had a very high sex drive. This troubled me despite what God said above it was a problem for me.

    So one day I’m driving, and lusting. I cry out to God, where are you, why aren’t you helping me with this!

    All of a sudden I hear this statement “why don’t you tell me the truth”. I say “what truth”…Then my understanding is opened and I SEE!

    I say OK Lord… “I don’t want you to interfere, I love my sin and while I’m troubled about it, I don’t want you to interfere”.

    Do you know what happened? I somehow forgot all those thoughts about sin and lust, if they came back I would confess this new found truth and somehow my mind would be distracted again.

    This went on for a few days, and then I found myself free.

    This reminds me of a guy named Tommy Williams from the 70’s…A brother walks up to Tommy complaining that he can’t stop smoking.

    Tommy says “brother when Jesus is ready for you to stop, then you will. A few days later that brother was so excited, because he found himself free a few days later.

    NOW what does all of this show me…

    It shows me we do NOT know truth UNTIL it is revealed to us, and most importantly “Truth is a person”, and that person makes us free.

    6. My experience with speaking in Tongues.

    I never sought tongues, but I am not against it either. I never made it a big issue.

    But a few months after I accepted Jesus I ended up in Spain.

    I went out to the fishing area off a pier and sat by myself.

    A old man came and sat by me.

    I had been sitting praying in tongues in just a quit whisper.

    Then this man asks me if I am an American. I say yes.

    He said “Do you speak only English” I said “Yes”.

    He said “Then why do I hear you speaking in French, German, and Spanish”

    He said “You are speaking about the might works of God”.

    7. Right after I was saved, the exorcist movie came out on the big screen.

    A friend came over and asked if I wanted to go to the movie.

    My mom butts in and says yes, and I’ll pay, and I’ll drive.

    At that time I didn’t even know what exorcist meant or what it pertained to.

    But as soon as the movie starts to play, I feel something.

    So I say “Mom, we need to go” She says “I paid for this g-d movie and we are going to watch it all.

    Anyway we sit through throughe whole thing, and when we leave people are throwing up outside, and acting crazy.

    For about 9 months a fear came to me, and it was especially bad at night.

    But one night at a fellowship on the east coast God speaks and says “Rod go outside”.

    I know why he wants me to go outside, so I obey. When I get outside he says to me “look up”.

    As soon as I look up he says “you know that fear you have”? I say “Yes Lord”. He says “The next time that fear comes to you I want you to tell him, he is a liar”…

    So I did that for about a week, and it left me.

    I was freed, by the truth.

    Truth that I knew nothing about until I heard the word of God to me, about my situation!

    8. I Went To See The Son of God Movie… When All of a Sudden…As I Was Watching Jesus Die…

    It dawned on me that in all of Paul’s writings about:

    The Spirit,
    The Flesh,
    Lust of the flesh,
    The 1st Adam,
    The 2nd Adam,
    and walking in the Spirit…

    That these things are all tied to the death of Jesus.

    It’s as if God decided to give up on “The flesh” since the flesh was never able to abide by His commands, nor please Him, and move to the Spirit, as a new creation.

    Kind of like changing trains, or modes of transportation…

    That is why Jesus said “You must be born again”. Born of Spirit. A new creation.

    Jesus died; literally killed the vehicle of sin, and death, by dying in the flesh.

    So when we are born again, we really are NEW creatures.

    Old things have passed away. This is why that seed remains sin free. Because sin worked through the flesh…

    Adam was in the flesh, and sinned in the flesh.

    Sin can’t work in the Spirit…It’s not the right vehicle (seed) for sin…

    9. I NEVER remember my dreams; I have been that way my whole life.

    But I have had 8 spiritual dreams that seemed as if I was transported somewhere. This is the last dream I had so far.

    I usually go to bed very late, and I usually do not wake up to go pee, but this particular night I went to bed about midnight,

    Immediately I fell asleep and had a dream, that God comes to me, the room shakes, his power is making everything vibrate, and God speaks to me about restoring me spiritually, in a greater way than ever before.

    Then I wake up and need to pee, so I go to the bathroom, pee, wash my hands, and walk back to my room and as soon as my head hits the pillow, I am asleep as if someone gave me anesthesia. The dream repeats or starts where it left off with the exact same dream happening again.

    Then it’s as if someone wakes me again, and I again I walk to the bathroom, go pee, wash my hands, walk back to bed, and immediately, as soon as my head hits the pillow I’m out again, and the same dream occurs for a third time.

    This happens 5 or 6 times, eventually I start to laugh as I go back to my room from the bathroom, because I realize this is not humanly possible, and that God is trying to show me something.

    He wants me to be prepared, because He is going to visit…We need a visitation, and new revival. So the world can see the REAL church (Ecklesia).

    10. Can we talk about fellowship for a minute?

    Who can you fellowship with, what is this fellowship, is there a real and false type of fellowship, and what kind of fellowship does Jesus and Paul refer when they speak in the NT?

    I what to try and share my thoughts with you on this matter. OK.

    Fellowship is not something a person enters into just because that person chooses to go to a bible study, a Friday night prayer meeting, or to a Sunday food sharing event in the backyard of the church.

    These are not bad things, it just doesn’t guarantee that the spiritual fellowship that Jesus and Paul talks about is going to occur. It’s not so much the location, or event as it is WHO comes together at the event.

    In fact, you may not be able to enter into this fellowship with the pastor of your church, or even most of the people who go to your church, or maybe you’re lucky and all of you have this kind of fellowship.

    So how do you keep Paul’s command to not forsake the gathering together of “YOURSELVES”?

    Ponder that word “YOURSELVES”… And ponder the book of Acts…

    What do we know about fellowship?

    It’s a spiritual event, it happens while we are in this human body, but it cannot happen apart from SPIRIT.

    Paul’s constantly admonishing people to SEE if they are in Christ, or IF that Spirit of Christ be IN YOU. Paul also says; “When it pleased God, to reveal, Christ “IN ME”…

    Fellowship in the spirit only happens with TRUE believers…

    Have you ever had a witness in your spirit?

    No offense but I don’t mean TV preacher type of claims and exagerations. I mean a real event, where the spirit bore witness in you about an event or person.

    Let me give you an example: One day I was crammed into a small room, with 50 guys, this room was maybe 20 feet x 20 feet, we are all standing shoulder to shoulder. I don’t know any of the men in this room.

    All of a sudden I turn around and look across the room, and I see the back of a man’s head, this man is about 20 feet away, at the end of the room, facing away from me.

    All of a sudden I KNOW He was a Christian, a real believer, there was no doubt. I felt this STRONG inner witness about his identity. And I told him he was a believer, he said how did you know, so I explained what happened, we fellowshipped from that day forward.

    Now this inner knowing is the only way you’ll know someone is a real believer. It might come while they share their testimony, or when you see them walking on a side road, hitch hiking. Or possibly not at all. God has to reveal it.

    But this is not the same as someone CLAIMING to be a Christian, or someone who was raised in church, or someone who agrees with all your doctrines, or someone who runs to the alter, or someone who reads their bible, or even someone who you call “pastor”.

    Going to a building with lots of people inside, and calling it church is no different than going to a Safeway store full of people…UNLESS… Everyone there is a true believer, and the unbeliever is afraid to be in their midst.

    11. God controls everything, even evil. No matter how uncomfortable that makes us it is true. Let me give you an example.

    One day David says to God. “I want to build you a house.” God says “No!” “But you will have a son in the future who will build me my house”.

    Is this true?

    Yes it is, and who was this promised son, this son of prophecy, this future son, this spoken word son, this god prophesied son.

    This son, was Solomon… Now watch God fulfill his own word of promise, His own prophetic word to David.

    One day David was overlooking his kingdom, and while on his rooftop, he sees a beautiful woman, bathing herself. David says “who is that woman” his servant says that is Bathsheba, the wife of your servant Uriah. David says “get her for me”.

    Then they have relations, (fornicate and commit adultery)…And from this union surrounded by sin and deceit, comes the God promised, prophesied, spoken word, son, named Solomon.

    So do we have a problem with God using sin to complete His words? Do we have a problem with God creating evil for His purposes?

    How about Moses, Moses kills a man, so he can meet God at the burning bush. Consider this man that Moses killed, this man was at the right place at the right time. What if this man had chosen to take a different path to work, or had an extra cup of tea, or went to visit the pharaoh that day. No that man had to be just at the right place at the right time to fulfill God’s plan and promises.
    Consider Romans CH 9:

    Paul sets about with a wonderful description of God’s plan and sovereignty. The Jews understand Paul so well they scream “Who then can resist His will, and why does God then blame us”.

    And what does Paul say to them as a reply. Does Paul say “My brothers I am so sorry, you have misunderstood my point about God’s sovereignty”.

    NO! Paul retorts, “Who are you to answer back to God”.

    12. I have a good friend who went thru a messy divorce, his wife left and didn’t want to walk with God. He moved out into the country. All his past church going so-called christian friends treated him like an outcast.

    One day he is walking in the rain, and falls in the mud, he gets up, and God speaks to him and asks him “what are you going to do now?” He says well Lord I’m going to clean myself off….The Lord replies “That is what I do for you everyday”.

    The Lord then asks him a question. He says — (Named withheld)… ” What would happen to you if there were no churches, and no bibles” he replies I don’t know Lord… The Lord says “would it change my relationship with you, if you couldn’t go to church, or read a bible…He said I suppose not…

    That day my friend saw the difference between religious Christianity, and relationship with God….

    This is the problem I think for many people, they have never experienced Jesus like that in a real way…

    All they know is a book, and a set of doctrines…The Jewish people of Jesus time, had a perfect text, from the finger of god, to scribes who were meticulous about making copies without translating the text, as we have to do for our bibles.

    Still they did not see clearly what was spoken about in the OT text.

    Jesus came and only two people in the temple were expecting him.

    Do you think our doctrines are any better than theirs…

    They knew the culture, they knew the customs, they knew the original languages, they knew all the clues of the scriptures, and some of them had even memorized the text of.


    Remember spiritual truth is revealed, NOT learned…

    Theologians can’t help you…It doesn’t work that way…

    It doesn’t come from learning, and spread from the mind of one man into the mind of another…

    Algebra does that, not spiritual truth.

    13. Beginning around the 20th of November 2016 and continuing for approximately 38 weeks (an average term of a human pregnancy) Jupiter enters the womb of Virgo (the virgin or the woman), and stays there until approximately Sept. 11th 2017. Just as Jupiter is exiting the womb of of Virgo, we have the culmination of the event at the end of The Feast of Trumpets (Sept.22 2017) which is also the end of the Jewish year 5777.

    14. IF the bible is our answer for our spiritual life we have to then consider, what the scriptures say about the bible.

    Who had the bible, and who did not have the bible.

    Then we must ask which of those persons had life, true life, the kind that Jesus promises.

    I submit our life and truth comes from somewhere else, the scriptures are a road map, a plumb line…

    IF that is not the case God failed a huge group who never had access to God’s word (that is IF the bible is your definition of the word of God).

    1). Did any of the masses have access to the bible (scriptures) in the Old Testament? NO!

    2). Did any of the masses in the New Testament have access to the bible? NO!

    *Could the masses read the bible if they had one? NO!

    3). How many after the Resurrection, thru the dark ages had access to the bible and could read it? ZERO!

    4). How many countries had “LIMITED” access to copies of the O.T. bible, in their own language? Only Israel!

    5). When did, the bible become available in English, the language of the masses? The mid 1550’s! How many people were literate? Hardly none!

    6). When was the printing press created? 1440!

    * SO basically, the masses (those that could read) have had a bible available to them for the last 500 yrs…

    * Man, has a history that spans approx. 6000 years minus 500 years…

    *So, for 5500 years’ man was without the word of god…IS THAT WHAT YOU’RE TELLING ME?

    Further Proof:

    When you see the term “The Word of God” in the Bible it is either referring to Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

    “He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called “The Word of God.” (Rev 19:12-13)

    When you see the following terms in scripture, this is what it is referring to:

    The word = The gospel


    (Acts 4:4) Howbeit many of them which heard the word (The gospel) believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

    (Acts: 4:29) And now, Lord, behold their threatening’s: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word (The gospel),

    (Acts 16:6) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word (The gospel) in Asia,

    (2nd Timothy 4:2) Preach the word (The gospel); be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

    (Hebrews 4:2) For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word (The gospel) preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    (It is important to note in the verses above that the Bible had not yet been written yet as the OP has already mentioned, so how could “the word” be referring to the Bible? It’s not possible.)

    The Word of God = Jesus/Spirit

    (Acts 4:31) And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God (Jesus) with boldness.

    (Acts 13:5) And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God (Jesus) in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.

    (Acts 15:35) Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord (Jesus), with many others also.

    (Acts 17:13) But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God (Jesus) was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

    (Acts 18:11) And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God (Jesus) among them.

    There are times in the Bible when “word” means a spoken word, but it is never referring to a written word. This tells us that the Bible is not the word of God and there is nowhere in the Bible that claims that it is. Instead the Bible tells us that “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so, that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and that Jesus is “The Word of God.” (Rev 19:13)

    An example of the spoken word can be found in Rev 12:11

    “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

    Their testimony would have no doubt been about the gospel of Jesus Christ. After all, the book of Revelation is about the revealing of Jesus Christ (Not some apocalyptic events in the future as Christian Zionist believe). And since the Bible interprets its self, whenever we see the “word of God” written anywhere in the Bible, it has to refer to Jesus. It never refers to to Bible.

  81. Many of the young people that became born-again in the sixties and the seventies long since merged with the growing Christian Right movement in the late 70s, such as Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority. It was their search for strong charismatic leadership, and the tide was turning that way with the election of Ronald Reagan in 1980.

    Check out this slice-of-life essay, https://harpers.org/archive/2013/04/blinded-by-the-right/2/ . so may examples of this surround us – former long haired disciples who were baptized in the Pacific Ocean, became arch conservatives – more closed-minded than the parents they fled, in the quest for freedom.

    There has been much documentation of the development of Christianity in America, see this article, http://religionandpolitics.org/2016/03/22/what-happened-to-the-jesus-people/.

    The born-again ex-hippies are now in their late 50s – 70s, and despite their youthful commitment to follow the teachings of Jesus, now call themselves Republicans, deeply prejudiced against society’s outcasts and lacking compassion for the most vulnerable, all the while asserting “pro-life” Bible-based values. They have willingly broken God’s commandment, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    What’s a true follower of Jesus to do? Matthew says, “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter.”

    • jane

      I read your links. Some of what they say is true, but I see bias in the writing, like these comments:

      We know that most evangelicals are now vehemently right-wing, and that most hippies (liberals) were decidedly not.

      So what transformed an Aquarian ethos woven around gentle Christian communalism into a fiery form of conservatism?

      christian communalism ( liberal) is gentle but conservatism is “fiery”

      I would say these authors are liberal in orientation, as we describe liberal today, not then, and so they see christianity as defective anyhow. I have met people whose occupation/teaching position was “religious studies”” and they really had no idea what a personal relationship with jesus was about.

      while I am still musing over this, I can agree that the jesus people were trying to go in the right direction, but went too far in the liberal direction, as they were still trying to identify with the unsaved hippies of the time, which were more socialist, anything goes, atheist oriented.

      rather than offering a more balanced gospel, the leaders used the hippie culture to draw in the kids. they used an emotional approach, instead of the word of god..

      many disappeared into the wordwork as they grew older, and became liberals , NOT VEHEMENT ,”lacking compassion republicans.” being pro life is an appropriate position if one is to follow Christ.

      I would not describe the republicans as “deeply prejudiced against society’s outcasts and lacking compassion for the most vulnerable” you have been listening to the wrong voices.

      sin is sin………..to mislabel unrepentant sinners as outcasts and vulnerable connotes gullability to the liberal (sin and crime is ok) propaganda.

      we are to reject the sin / crime , but help the sinner….this distinction is made clearly from any observations I have had.

      liberals accept the sin / crime as normal and acceptable. lawlessness is a general rule with them.

      and one must use wisdom in making decisions. we have criminals coming into this country claiming to be refugees, but they are nothing but jihadists, coming to infiltrate this country with violence. they have no respect and no intention of contributing anything to USA. they are here to take advantage of our generosity and take control of the politics. being blind to this will cause destruction of many of our freedoms.

      just about all the rescue missions and charity I see around america are operated by republicans, not democrats, and are really non profit.

      enterprises operated by democrats provide little support for the poor, while democrat managers fill their pockets with donation money. the clinton foundation is a good example. they collected about 10 million in funds for haiti, and the haitians got NOTHING.

      many jesus people also remained christian and finally grew and became more educated in the word of god.

      • Hi Marianne, thanks for your reply. Unfortunately there is no conversation here, and certainly not “koinonia” in any sense, but I’ll spend a last moment of my time with you. In your reply, you seem eager to brand me a biased “liberal,” and inject that word several times in your writing – without considering the implications. Examine the qualities that you associate with this media-toxified label, “liberal”… defined by Webster as “characterized by generosity and willingness to give in large amounts.” Liberal like who? President Jimmy Carter, a lifelong minister who at 92 STILL builds houses for Habitat For Humanity? Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who spoke out for peace and freedom for South Africa under Apartheid? Dorothy Day, or Father Daniel Berrigan, who devoted their lives to helping the poor, and serving the Christ of the breadlines? If you’re unfamiliar with any of these, I recommend a quick Google. And when was the last time you with a Christian who was a conscientious objector to war, and believed in beating swords into plowshares? Not if they want to be accepted by their mainstream conservative church communities.

        Now reflect the life of the Nazarene, whose friends and followers were the poor and disliked, prostitutes, tax collectors, Samaritans, and more. The man who was rejected by the Priests of his OWN religion, and by age 33, was eliminated by local and federal (Roman) government. I am absolutely convinced that if Jesus returned today, (he is the same yesterday, today, and forever, right?), Jesus would be most unwelcome in most christian churches and other mainstream evangelical groups. Do you really think he’d show up in a fine suit with an American flag pin on his lapel, driving a Cadillac Navigator, wearing a Rolex watch? Rather, Jesus as a homeless non-white middle-eastern man, speaking of love and the kingdom of heaven, accompanied by a band of unsavory followers – crack addicts, transgender people, homeless parents with hungry children, refugee from oppressive countries (many of which are U.S.allies)? Jesus would be immediately arrested, and branded as a jihadist, tried, imprisoned and tortured in Guatanamo, and executed AGAIN. No bronze-age cross this time, more likely electrocution.

        Marianne, as you see red reading my words (perhaps literally), know that
        my youth has roots in the Jesus movement, and I saw first hand how quickly it devolved in the late 70s, and I became quickly aware that the evangelical church leaders are obsessed with power, influence, and money. “Whitewashed tombs” whose sins always eventually expose them, such as the Revs. Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, and more. I am very disappointed in the present-day “Moral Majority”, modern Christians that would see the traditional mores of the Grand Old Party as too progressive, getting their spiritual education second-hand from their ambitious pastors and Fox News.

        If you really love Jesus, turn away from the Wide Gate, re-read the gospels alone at home, meet again the man who said, “This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you.” C.S. Lewis said that the definition of christian is “little Christ.” Then act like it – that’s what the most spiritually influential people in my life have done, including some of the members of the Jesus movement I knew way back when. They are the ones that pray in secret, not making a big noise in the temple crying “Lord, Lord,” …and haven’t been controlled and devoured by political wolves.

        • jane

          I follow “the way,” which was what the early church practiced…it IS the narrow path, .and is a simple life that seeks holiness and understanding, but also practices discernment to avoid deception.

          I do not see red when I read comments….I worked with liberals in universities for 40 years, and so I am well acquainted with their value system. I tend to be logical in my approach to people, having spent those 40 years as a scientist.

          I do not see you as a biased liberal. but maybe you are. I do not know you well enough. I think you may believe their propaganda.

          I said modern liberals are biased and blind. I see you as having some concepts where we do not agree, and the biased viewpoint came from reading the links, which you seem to think is objective opinion, rather than subjective.

          my definition of liberal comes from how modern liberals define themselves. I agree that the great falling away has taken place, as prophesied, and so we will see power, influence and money being a priority. so now the “church” is following modern liberal values, which are toxic. and neither are to be upheld as ideal.

          and just because jesus would not be welcome in many churches, he would not be welcome in liberal circles either.

          point here: modern liberalism is NOT the answer to a failed church. it is just another failed, immoral way of doing things. it has its own evil ways.

          if you think jesus would approve of crack addicts and transgenders, then you are deceived. while he would seek to deliver them from their condition, he would not accept them the way they were. sinners were told to repent. he told prostitutes to “go and sin no more.” he did not say “I accept you the way you are. you don’t need to change”

          there really is a true pure christianity, and it is NOT found in modern liberal values. modern liberals persecute christians, and support pro islamic terror groups like hamas and the muslim brotherhood, accusing the christians, who suffer persecution, FGM, rape and child rape, beheadings, and other violent treatment, of islamophobia.

          I also picked these liberal behaviors from news headlines , just to mention a few ( would you approve of these?):

          Teaching children and teens to have anal sex
          approves of post partum abortion, and all abortions
          Socialist democrats say they will behead republicans
          Death and assassination threats against President Donald Trump
          Involved in a soft coup to overthrow the legally elected Trump administration because he promised to fight corruption
          Profanity and libel and slander against the president of the USA.
          Inciting to riot and commit sedition
          Defective babies should be killed
          Aborting babies to sell body parts
          Planned parenthood issues guidelines on how to talk to preschoolers about transgenderism and masturbation
          Support ILLEGAL immigration and open borders
          Take LEAKS of secure information ( and Seth Rich) and change it into HACKS by Russia ( false accusations)
          murdering witnesses to crimes
          all white people should be killed and their property taken
          illegal immigration is “legal”

          anyhow, I do not like liberal behaviors, and their anti god or fake god attitudes….I can get along with them in a professional setting, as there, we are all focused on our work, not moral issues

  82. … except there is no room for hate, and your accusations and wild rumor-mongering are filled with it. FAIL.

    • jane

      you apparently are not a christian, although you try to use scriptures to shut down a believer. this is evidence of a religious spirit and demonic influence over your life. this is a cause for concern. your soul is in danger.

      I have no hate, except for what is evil.

      the scriptures say, those that love the Lord hate evil.

      I do not have to accuse, or rumormonger, I just point out the truth, i report what has already been reported in the news and how it contradicts the word of god

      if you want false accusations and rumor mongering, then watch CNN and MSNBC and other mainstream media…you resent Fox news which is the only place there is even a chance to hear what is true.

      you use the classic approach that liberals and other unrepentant sinners use, you PROJECT your sins onto another person and then criticize and attack them

      I suggest you consider your ways. as long as you are breathing, you can repent, and ask for forgiveness….this is something we all have to do.

      we have a loving god, but he is also holy………..he will forgive sin, but will not tolerate it….he wants all to come to him in spirit and in truth….you can either choose to live in darkness, and die this way, or come into the light of an amazing god, and live in eternity with him.

      I love you, and want the best for you.

  83. What’s next, then?

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