Woman vs Beast
–
The way I see it, the woman, Mystery Babylon is NOT the beast…she just sits on top of it.
–
And Revelation 17:16 says the beast HATES the woman (harlot).
And the ten horns which you saw upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
So, there are 2 opposing systems….if one hates the other one.
–
I am looking at common opinions here.
If the woman is the roman catholic church, then who is the beast she rides?
The description about kings is (Revelation 17:10):
7 fallen, one “is” and one to come
The description of beast (Revelation 17:8) is:
was, “is not,” and is of the seven
—-
So, at the time of John, one king “is” on a beast that “is not”
–
Questions (if the catholic church is the harlot):
Who are the 7 fallen popes at the time of John?
Who “is” the pope at the time of john?
Who is the pope to come?
Why is there only ONE pope to come?
–
Caesar was not the “pope” at the time of John, so he does not count.
–
The beast “was” (past tense) at the time of john…..but did not exist (“is”) at the time of john
–
So what empire ( or combination of empires) was past history when John wrote?
It is not the catholic church, so think again…that is future only from his time.
Daniel 7:7 describes a combination beast….a future one made up of those that were before (“was” = leopard – Greece, lion- Babylon, and bear – Medo Persia)
It had 10 horns, so the same as what john saw as “is to come”….it had iron teeth….
Iron = Rome, so ONLY the teeth are Roman,,,,,,
–
The 4th beast is a combo of Grecian, Babylonian and Medo-Persian, with a touch of “Rome”
The beast is Islamic (former Babylonian religion)…..if you look at ancient maps, these territories are almost all Islamic now.
–
So…whatever king “is” at the time of John is somehow associated with the Babylonian/ Islamic religion and territory, …since:
the Catholic Church does not seem to fit, because:
the Caesars were not popes
there were not any fallen popes then
–
The civil government of Rome fits better:
5 previous governors before John ‘s revelation, IF written in just after 68 AD ( John would have been in his 60’s) This was the Julio- Claudian dynasty:
Augustus 27 BC – 14AD
Tiberius 14 AD – 37 AD
Caligula 37 AD – 41 AD
Claudius 41 AD – 54 AD
Nero 54 AD – 68 AD
–
This would fit since Paul established the 7 churches in the mid 30s – 50s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
–
There is some scholarship saying that Revelation not written until 96 AD while under Domititian rule.
By then, there were 6 MORE rulers for a total of 11, so that is too many to qualify for “5 have fallen.”
The next set was the Flavian Dynasty:
Galba 69 AD – 69 AD ( short rule)
Otho 69 AD – 69 AD ( short rule)
Vitellius 69 AD – 69 AD ( short rule)
Vespasian 69 AD – 79 AD
Titus 79 AD – 81 AD
Domititian 81 – 96 AD
–
If only the Julio- Claudian dynasty was counted, then the Book of Revelation was written early when John was in his 60s.
–
Eastern leg of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue:
There was also an eastern leg of the Roman empire, with Leo being the first emperor to be crowned by the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Constantinople = city on 7 hills!!!!
Constantinople NOW taken over by Muslims, with a mosque on each of the 7 hills.
–
Long rule of Roman empire:
After that, rulers continue on until 602 AD. So, here, there are too many rulers after the current one for John to just have “one more in the future.”
–
–
European extension of Roman Empire
But if the Roman territory was truly what John was referring to, it has spread to all of Europe.
The Center for the European Union is Brussels, which sits on 7 hills:
St.Michielsberg,
Warmoesberg,
Zavel and
St.Pietersberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills
–
Muslim population is growing in Europe due to immigration and high reproduction rates:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population
Brussels is 25% Muslim.
UK is worse, with some parts as high as 32%.
Muslims hate the EU and want a complete takeover.
Europe also maintains royalty (woman wears purple) in many of its countries.
However, the trade list given in Revelation 18 does not match that of Europe:
http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/europe/export-import.html
–
–
So choices for woman with a Roman background that sits on 7 hills:
1. if the catholic church is involved, it rides on the beast of Islam in an incompatible union. But it does not fit the 5 popes have fallen criteria. And, they need to do more than wear purple to qualify for the whore who rides the beast.
And this means that at some point, the Muslims will burn and destroy the Vatican, and kill the Pope, as it is already destroying churches and Christians world wide now anyhow.
2. Brussels, Belgium , center for the EU, the new “Roman empire,” which is also incompatible with Islam and currently invaded and harassed by Muslims who want to take over Europe.
Muslims are already burning and rioting in parts of Europe.
–
Just food for thought.
Maybe that is why it is called a Mystery.
Or, …..maybe America is Babylon?
–
–
See also
Revelation 17 – Who is the Woman who sits on 7 hills
Woman on the Beast has no Blue
The Beast "is" or "is not" Rome – End Times
The Fourth Beast of Daniel and Revelation – the Antichrist
Modern Slave Trade – Clue to Mystery Babylon
Mystery Babylon – When does she fall?
–
–
Heaven Awaits 
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/11/30/pope-prays-in-istanbul-mosque-in-new-outreach-prays-facing-mecca/
Pope prays in Istanbul mosque in new “outreach,” prays facing Mecca
That is true Marianne – I just read it last week myself. But that does not mean Islam is the one taking over. Remember that both of these beastly Empires are very hungry to rule the world.
ISTANBUL (Reuters) – Pope Francis prayed silently alongside a senior Islamic cleric in Istanbul’s Blue Mosque on Saturday, in a gesture of inter-religious harmony in a country bordering the conflicts in Syria and Iraq.
The Roman Emperor Constantine founded it in the 300s and the name Constantinople literally means “Constantine’s City.”
Before that it was called Byzantium and it was founded by the Greeks as a colony in 667BC.
Constantinople was the capital of the Roman Empire between 330 and 395, the Byzantine Empire between 395 and 1453, and the Ottoman Empire between 1453 and 1923. It was officially renamed to its modern Turkish name Istanbul in 1930. It is Turkey’s most populous city, and its cultural.
This city was the meeting place for ALL GODS to meet. When I read this I thought something was very Special. And indeed it was. read below please
My Wife at the age of 24 o 25 had a dream about Istanbul and Turkey. My wife is not a dreamer at all. So I listened carefully to her dream. She said she seen a great beautiful land mass with forest and was just beautiful. And a voice spoke up and said this is “Turkey” and the other was “Istanbul”. Then she looked away and was wondering what this meant. Then she looked back all she saw was a scorched earth. And she said there was just a “little stick tree” that was left like it had been burned up etc. along with everything else.
I Have always wondered about her dream. So when I read the article above. I had to remember her dream. And she can still remember’s it today even though she had a stroke 5 years ago. After a study on this. I found out what it meant. The Time has come when all things are Uniting with its source of power. All pagan religion will unite and most have already United. We already have Christian denomination’s already united into one and it growing in numbers as I speak. Just as the Pope got the Charismatics to join him. As they sure fell for it = We are at the end of the age.
I think the dream was talking about 2 things. Earthly devastation and Religions of the the world are uniting and will suffer devastation. The Pope has been all over Europe, Israel, Middle east now. And coming to America soon.
We already know America has always been a Empire likened unto Rome and its power of authority. And yet America use to be The Light of the world at one time. But now is “backslidden” just like Israel did when Christ came. It was nothing but chaos in Jesus day and the same today.
We all know that a war with Israel and middle east is imminent. NOW the Pope has already been in Israel and that has been the Pope’s great desire every since she lost the “city to Islam” right around 666 AD. That was also about the same date they put up the Dome of the Rock. If I am not mistaken.
I just thought i would share this with you. I believe my wife’s dream which was around 1973 if finally getting ready to happen real soon. Obama has deserted Israel and she is very vulnerable on her own. And Now Israel’s population is actually starting to hate the U.S as well. I just read it . We at the end of this age. Just as when the O.T ended and the N.T started. Just as Noah ended that age. Just as Israel when leaving out of Egypt was a new age for Israel and Egypt. Everything in the Bible agrees and dove tails right into the same thing every time. The Holy Spirit is your Millennium. And the Holy Spirit is your SEAL of God. For whatever happens. You are sealed in and protected by that SEAL which was the 7th. Seal. 7 is the Completed number for the Believer. From Death, Hell, and the Grave.
Palisade – Bro. Tom
tom
I had a similar dream about an american army base near me in 1974. I also remember it vividly….
Marianne,
This page resonates with Catholic and Roman/ European overtones, making any attempt to break the conventional paradigm very difficult.
By your most recent post about the Pope – you’ve raised another option, raising questions and cast doubts about Brussels.
Is the home of the Beast Brussels (EU) or it’s about Rome (7 hills) pointing to Mecca (7 hills)?
Actually, you’re proving the answer to who she is and the Beast she rides indirectly and very clearly by example.
As for the the city setting on “hills” – there are far to many.
Athens, Rome, Brussels, Istanbul, Mecca, Moscow, Madrid, and more!
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills
Why investigate cities with 7 hills, picking just the right one to the exclusion of all other? It’s Mecca but not Rome, or Rome but not Istanbul, or Brussels but not Rome.
So now the Pope (Rome’s 7 hills) points to Mecca (7 hills) when he says prayers?
Maybe the Pope is pointing in the direction of Egypt and the birthplace of Isis?
I’ll bet he’s pointing to Egypt and Isis.
The obelisk in St. Peter’s Basilica is a clue to where he is pointing when he says prayers.
He doesn’t pray towards Mecca. They worship the moon god.
The Pope worships Mother Goddess and Isis where the obelisk in St. Peter’s Basilica comes.
So – you’ve just introduced Brussels into the mix with the graphic of a woman riding the Beast.
You’re suggesting that Brussels and by extension the EU is home to the Beast because there is a statue of a woman riding a bull, and the city is reportedly sitting on 7 very small hills.
Then, you’ve posted that the Pope (Rome) is praying to Mecca (Allah).
Your proving that the Beast (666) is not one nation (US) or Rome, or Brussels and the EU/Common Market or one religion (Universal Church and/or Mecca/Islam).
BTW – while we’re taking about The Beast (666) that she is riding – do you where the largest symbol to 666 is located?
The location of this symbol is not in EU, Rome or Mecca.
I know you know. 🙂
The GW Monument (pagan, Egyptian obelisk) is 555 ft (6660″) in hight and 55 ft (666″) by 55 ft (666″) at the base.
So then – 666″ x 10 in height by 666″ x 666″ inches at the base, standing in the middle of the national mall is an obvious symbol, giving honor to the Beast (666).
People can’t miss it but they do.
We see evidence (symbol) of the Beast in Washington DC more than a statue in Brussels.
But, where is the woman?
Could she be in the harbor of NYC?
You haven’t posted anything about her. She is larger than any statue in Brussels or Rome.
Lady Liberty has a history, extending back to Egypt and Babylon.
The Statue of Liberty is an 1800’s representation of Isis and Ishtar (Mother Goddess, Babylon).
She is also represented in the Capital Rotunda. Yes, she is in living color too!
In the fresco of the Rotunda – She is with George who is seated in Heaven. She is the Queen of Heaven.
You’ve read this before but it needs to be repeated on this page too.
The rebuilt World Trade Center complex of buildings (collective height) is 6660 ft (10 x 666). The One World Tower is 1776 ft in hight, looking like 2 pyramids (up/down) with an Islamic minaret on top.
NYC (within its own Egyptian obelisk in Central Park) is home to World Trade Center Center.
There is also a bull on Wall Street, which resembles the Beast she rides in Brussels.
Most of the world (1st, 2nd and 3rd world) hates, despises Wall Street’s power, influence and control around the world. Many hate (envy) the economic and military power of the US.
Iran, Russia and China really have issues.
The US (inclusive of Wall Street and Washington DC) advances liberty to sin, live for the belly, and aspire to happiness via financial success around the world. That reads like Ishtar (Mother Goddess; liberty to sin).
Thanks for posting these pages, allowing discourse and my opinion in an attempt to break a very well establish and deeply held paradigm.
I think the Beast is a worldwide system and the Woman who rides the Beast is Ishtar (Mother Goddess of Babylon).
Blessings
Rev. 12:11
DJ,
You sure have a weird imagination!
According to Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.
The Washington monument is not a man. Never was, never will be.
In private and at the Vatican the pope would Nero intentionally face Mecca when praying. He knows that Islam is a false religion and since he believe Protestants are all going to burn in hell, imagine what he thinks of a religion that denies Jesus is the son of God? Of course he doesn’t want to offend them. Do you thinks he wants a hundred suicide bombers descending on St. Peter’s Square?
And the Freedom Tower was built to defy the Muslims, not to honor them. You can’t use shapes and dimensions to make objects fit bible prophecy. It is illogical and in some cases just silly. If you lived in Europe you would be measuring in meters and all your calculations would be off. Try using biblical units like cubits and see what you end up with.
Maybe you could explain what the worldwide beast system is and who Ishtar represents today. Thanks.
I am a christian so excuse me for pointing this out, but Jesus is NOT the son of God. He said so himself! When others proclaimed he was the Son of God, He said “I am the son of man”.
You can’t be any clearer than that!
when jesus was baptized, the Father from heaven spoke over him, and said “this is my son, in whom I am well pleased.”
do you believe what the Father said?
Greetings Alan,
I don’t even know why you would claim that Jesus is not the Son of God, as this is too easy to Scripturally prove, as can be demonstrated below:
““To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.”
==============================
“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” (1 John 2:23)
==============================
“In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” (John 5:17)
================================
“No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” (John 1:18)
I could go on and on, but what would be the point. The very fact that Jesus refers to God as his Father should be enough proof that Jesus is the Son of God and is God. In the first Scripture above, Jesus is addresses the church as the Son of God. And Marianne pointed out a good one when God the Father said of Jesus, “this is my Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
I truly don’t have any idea why you would even try to make this claim. It’s like saying the ocean isn’t wet.
dj
I guess what I am trying to do is show the more we think about this, the worse it gets, which is actually a good thing to understand….it really is worse than we think, and more global than we think , with all sorts of connections from one country to another.
GERMAN CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL WARNS CITIZENS THAT THEY MUST ACCEPT ISLAM
The way I see it, the woman, Mystery Babylon is NOT the beast…she just sits on top of it.
You are correct Marianne. The beast will be the world ruler and the second beast the religious ruler, who I believe will be one of the future popes, the right hand man to that beast. The beast will be proclaiming himself to be God and the second beast will be the false prophet. And if that false prophet is one of the future popes as I believe that he will be, then all of those 1.2 billion Catholics who are devoted to him will follow the pope regarding his claim that the first beast is God. This is the whole purpose behind the false prophet performing those miraculous signs and wonders, that is, to deceive the inhabitants of the earth as proof that the first beast is God. And not only will those who are already Catholics be deceived, but the rest of the inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life before the world began.
RCC history: true followers of Jesus were put to death by this church for not bowing to the pope.
Connecting the dots to present day; Muslims force Christians to convert or die.
Why do the popes have / had “friendly” prayers session w/ Islam?
Prophesy is fulfilling…
The pope is appointed by men as Christ on earth; this IS blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
It all feels very heavy headed, heavy handed, and of heavy heart. Many (out there, not in here sharing) are trying to fit square pegs in round holes, that their religion is “IT” because of “this” or “that” – – – I’m speaking in very generalities here. It really makes my head hurt trying to take it all in.
A lot to digest, Marianne, and a topic no one has really brought up in various churches or study groups I’ve been around. No one has ever really asked the question(s). An interesting piece to consider.
We have really extreme bushfires in South Australia, my son is out there fighting fires.
If you look at the fires and smoke from the fire’s, you can see the Devil smiling.
He was defeated over 2,000 years ago
The woman represents a church. And a beast represents a king or kingdom or a state. So woman riding a beast represents church and state with the church in control(she is after all riding on top of it).
I would say the woman represents a religion, which could be any wicked religion? “church” confines it to Christianity, or to a particular denomination within Christianity.
No, it is definitely a “Christian” church. She claims to be Christian. Only it is a counterfeit.
David – you stated it so clearly!
She is false religion (Universal Church to Islam, to cults and false Jesus churches). Any religion or faith that does fear the LORD, giving glory, honor and praise to His Son as the Messiah who is the head of His Church, per Scriptures qualifies. It is bigger than Islam (for example).
The Beast is any man made (666) institution, organization, government or society/fraternity that is designed and functions to the glory of man.
She rides the Beast.
Blessings
Psalm 27
The only religio-political church on this planet is the RCC.
Amen David! “The only religio-political church on this planet is the RCC.”
I believe that the beast (a kingdom in prophecy) is the Vatican and the woman (a church in prophecy) is the Roman Catholic Church. The image of the beast is the pope who will be the False Prophet.
Now to explain the 7 kings, five are fallen one is yet to come verse:
First of all, the “kings” are kingdoms, not people or popes. And all “beasts” are also kingdoms, as described in Daniel. He sees 4 beast kingdoms – Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome seen as a lion, bear, leopard and a monster made of iron, respectfully.
Now, when John sees his beasts, he mentions the beasts of Daniel. This is so we know that his beasts are a continuation of those seen by Daniel – they are not something entirely new. So the first beast John sees is the Holy Roman Empire – the fifth beast. The second beast he sees and is describing is the Vatican. :
13:11 And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
13:12 And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed.
When the Holy Roman Empire ended, the Vatican still had all the religious authority it had before and still controlled the church (woman).
John goes on to describe the Vatican – its wealth, its colors etc.
Then John returns to the beasts (kings/kingdoms) and recaps his vision… Five beasts have come and gone (fallen) so there is one going (the Vatican he is describing) and there will be one more beast (king) to follow the Vatican beast. This kingdom is the revived Roman empire or as we know it today, the European Union. This is the 7th king, although later he mentions an 8th kingdom which is “of the 7th” which means it will be part of the European Union. This beast will be the restored Holy Roman Empire – a combination of the European Union and the Vatican. How will this happen?
Well, I believe that Europe will rebel against the Muslim invasion which will continue to grow and get worse. To fight back, the European Union will put the Vatican in charge of all religious matters in Europe. It will issue an order – a MARK of its authority, that all Friday and Saturday worship will be prohibited and mandatory Sunday worship will be enforced. If any Muslim defies the mark, he will be either deported or killed. (Remember, this will become a literal war).
Given that the pope will issue this mark, and that the title of the pope, Vicaruis Filii Dei“ (Substitute for the son of God) adds up to 666 in Roman numerals, it is clear who the False Prophet will be.
This interpretation fits the Book of Revelation perfectly and is the only one that continues the beasts of Daniel in perfect succession as well as keeping the statue in one piece without any gaps. Just because some of the beasts of Daniel are now in Muslim hands does not mean that either Daniel or John were referring to the religion of the modern day residents on that land. That is a false assumption that is not supported by scripture. It is these kind of assumptions that leads to crazy ideas like the Washington Monument and the Statue of Liberty.
The Book of Revelation is not a CSI episode with all sorts of plot twists and turns. It is a simple story about how the modern church has become so apostate that it needs to be destroyed and rebuilt completely before Christ returns. The same thing happened several times before (see Noah’s flood, Sodom and Gomorrah and the Babylonian captivity) and it is about to happen once again.
God is only interested in fixing His own church, not destroying other world religions.
If you think that He would rather destroy Islam than repair His own church then you don’t know God.
I think god would act amiss if he did not destroy Islam…but judgement starts first in the house of god.
the beast HATES the woman.
so does Europe hate the vatican?
–
or …you say beast is vatican and woman is church
does the vatican hate the church?
The Beast with seven heads and ten horns is the League of Arab States formed in 1945 consisting of Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon, a total of SEVEN heads or countries. It is later described as having “one head mortally wounded”..but the “mortal wound was healed and everyone wondered after the beast….”
The mortal wound was when one of its heads was severed in 1979! Egypt was expelled from the league for making a treaty with Israel but the mortal wound was “healed” when it was re-elected to the League in 1990.
The Harlot riding the Beast with the label “Babylon, Mother of Harlots” is America, the current global center of trade, as was Babylon in her time. (The world has become rich because of its fornication (trading) with her)
The Beast, or the Arab nations, hate the whore (no dispute here) as do the “ten horns” who are later described as “ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but receive power for “one hour” with the Beast. (How can a king not have a kingdom?)
This wasn’t very clear until recently but I now think, in the light of current developments in Iraq, that the ten kings without kingdoms are terrorist groups like Al Qaeda and Isis, which have moved into Iraq from Afghanistan in the east and fulfilled the prophecy that “the waters of the Euphrates were dried up” to make way for the “Kings of the East”
This might also reveal who will be fighting at Meggido. On the one hand it is said will be: “The kings of the earth” (various powerful terrorist groups?) against the “whole of the world” represented by The United Nations? which does represent virtually “the whole world”
This then overcomes the objection that if the kings of the ENTIRE world (the New World Translation) were fighting here, there wouldn’t be enough room on the plains of Meggido to accommodate them all!
Please note: Just because Babylon means America in this prophecy, it is not necessarilly the case that it means the same in another one. For instance, the Dragon in this prophecy with 7 heads is not the same as the Dragon in The War in Heaven, so please judge this interpretation as a stand-alone interpretation
sounds reasonable
Hi Alan,
Just clarifying some things here:
You said:
“The Beast with seven heads and ten horns is the League of Arab States formed in 1945 consisting of Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, Syria and Lebanon, a total of SEVEN heads or countries. It is later described as having “one head mortally wounded”..but the “mortal wound was healed and everyone wondered after the beast….”
Scripture says:
“The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.”
===========================
According to Scripture the seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits. Then, in Rev.17:18 the angel tells John the following:
“The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
So, the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits and the woman is the city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time that John was receiving this information from the angel, Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth. Furthermore, Rome is famous for being built on seven hills. So to recap, the woman, that prostitute, Mystery Babylon is a city that sits on seven hills. The important thing to remember her is that the woman is a city and America is an entire nation. Therefore, America does not fit the criteria of being the woman. The seven heads also have a duel symbolism as seen in the Scripture below:
“They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.”
Five have fallen: This means that five of those kings had already come and gone at the time John was receiving this information from the angel.
One Is: That is, king number six was ruling at the time John was receiving this information.
“The other has not yet come, but when he does come he must remain for a short while.”
King number seven was future to John is past to us.
“The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”
The beast who is that angel of the Abyss described at the 5th trumpet, is that beast who once was, now is not and yet will come.
Once was = was once out of the Abyss and in the world
Now is not = Was once in the world, but is now in the Abyss
And yet will come = He is currently in the Abyss and will come out
The beast is that eighth king who is counted with the seven. He is the one who receives that fatal wound, which is part of the deception, along with the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will perform. These will all be done for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth to authenticate his claim of being God. That eighth king, the antichrist, the beast, has not yet been revealed. He is the one who Jesus will have thrown alive into the lake of fire along with the false prophet when he returns to end the age. (Rev.19:20)
You said:
“This then overcomes the objection that if the kings of the ENTIRE world (the New World Translation) were fighting here, there wouldn’t be enough room on the plains of Meggido to accommodate them all!”
Scripture says:
“The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are demonic spirits that perform signs, [and they go out to the kings of the whole world,] to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.”
Notice in the Scripture above that it states that these three unclean spirits go out to gather the kings of the [whole world]. They will be gathered there to be slaughtered. Jesus will be cleaning house to make way for his millennial kingdom and those who worshiped the beast and image and received his mark will not enter into the millennial period. The birds that will have previously been gathered by that angel, will eat their flesh and their souls/spirits will go down into Hades in torment in flame waiting for the great white throne judgment.
just a note
istanbul /constantinople in turkey also has 7 hills…the ottomans had israel for 400 years….it was defeated in WW2 but is coming back to power
it is part of grecian empire, which “was” at time of john, “is not” at time of john, and would be again, after john
HI Marianne,
The problem with what you posted:
“it is part of Grecian empire, which “was” at time of john, “is not” at time of john, and would be again, after john” is that the Scripture is clear that the “once was, now is not and yet will come” is in reference to the beast coming up out of the Abyss. Here are the Scriptures regarding this:
“The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.”
The last part of the verse which says “and yet will come up out of the Abyss” is what defines the meaning of “once was and now is not.”
“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them”
Who is this beast that comes up out of the Abyss?
“They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).
“The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king”
So, as you can see from the Scriptures above, once was, now is not and yet will come, is not in reference to a revived kingdom, but of an entity, that beast who is currently in the Abyss and will come out at the blowing of the 5th trumpet when that angel opens the Abyss. Notice also that the beast that comes up from the Abyss is said to be an eighth king and therefore cannot be Greece, Istanbul, etc.
Also, remember that the kings and the inhabitants of the earth will be committing spiritual adultery with the woman, which means that she is a religious system. The figurative meaning of spiritual adultery is defined as:
“Being unfaithful to Jesus while claiming to be his true follower”
Rome sits on and is famous for being built on seven hills. She is the major religious system claiming to be the true church of Christ, while being unfaithful to him because she is pagan through and through. The woman is a city that ruled over the kings of the earth. Rome was that city that was ruling over the kings of the earth.
Rome who was built on seen hills and her pseudo-Christian system is Mystery Babylon. For in her can be found all of the characteristics of the mystery religions of Babylon. These are displayed in the worship of Mary as queen of heaven, praying to the saints, mother and son worship, the ritual of the Eucharist, the sacraments and too many others to mention here.
Jim Giordano and to all- Jim you are right on most everything you say. I have been saying this as well for a long time also. I might disagree on a point or two. But the whole of it is just right on.
I’ve been trying to tell everybody I get around – and on other forums etc. The beast are the nations – Jesus said it. – He compared the Kingdom of God up against the Kingdom of the worlds. It was the Beastly Nations of Israel, and Rome “come together” to Kill and crucify the Lord of Glory. It took 2 beast to do that.
Matt. 6:22 No man can “serve” “”two”” “”masters””: for either he will “hate” the one, and “love” the other; or else he will “hold” to the one, and “despise” the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. = mammon is wealth, and riches which becomes Power to the individual that possess it. Think of Rich young ruler. He was Rich and that made him a “Ruler” –
“Masters” defined: 2962 kurios (supremacy)
— Lord — master
1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing, the owner; one who has control of the person, the master; in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the “””ROMAN EMPEROR “””
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants salute their master – THAT IS A NATION AND OR RELIGION
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah –
Supremacy comes to real light when man builds their Nations to rule other men. Nation’s all require obedience to their laws, constitutions, and they Nations make up the rule’s in general you live by.
“Serve” defined 1401 doulos from 1210;
AV — servant — bond — bondman
1) a slave, bondman, man of servile condition
1b) metaphorically, one who gives himself up to another’s will; those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing His cause among men; devoted to another to the disregard of one’s own interests
2) a servant, attendant
Their is only 2 things that human kind serve. Man’s “Kingdom of Nations” or Gods Kingdom of His Bride. Both have riches to seek and receive. The Riches of God or the Riches of Jesus Christ Kingdom.
Remember in Rev. 18 read it and you will find they have slave, bondmen, and the soul’s of men in their possession. That is their “MARK” of servitude to a Nation or we call it the World. This is the Babylon and is the Worlds thinking. If you are of this World your thinking will be Marked and you will be lost. John said in his epistles if you do not “Hate the World” then the love of God is NOT in you. The world has a Nature and a Image – So does the Kingdom of God have a Nature and a Image – they are opposites.
Now lets read it again what Jesus said: No man can serve two masters: for either he will “”hate the one””, “”and love the other””; or else he will “hold to the one”, and “despise the other”. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Paul said in Rom. 9:77 What then? “”Israel”” hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom. 9:12 Now if the “”fall of them =Israel- be the riches of the world””, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Now we understand by Jesus and Paul and John’s writings. The world which is civilization’s “Like Cain, and Nimrod and Daniels nations” built Nations to rule the world. They were the Nico-latians that ruled over Church and State= world. Making it all Babylon – The greatest of all splendor was Babylonian Kingdom of Gold – which influenced all Nations after them.
9:16 – Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Question – What Kingdom are we obeying today right in this “now world”. Only two Master’s period.
The Worlds Sin – of un-belief because of wealth and power is Mark of the Beast – God’s World is the believer who is SEALED of the Holy Ghost – that cannot be broken into. You are sealed unto the day of your redemption. = Mark of God
ROM 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that “form of doctrine” which was delivered you.
ROMANS 6:18- Being then made free from sin, ye became the “”servants”” of righteousness. Which slave do we want to obey. Only two.
ROMANS 6:19- I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have “”yielded your members servants”” to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so “now” “”yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness”
.
Again here is your two kingdom’s that a human must live in. Both have servants that they love and will give their servitude to the end –
All Servants -Have a “Mark” in their hand and means the “”right arm of all your power and desires of the two world Images”” is given over to serve your God or the gods of materialism, religions and strange doctrines that are foreign to Gods doctrine, riches, and mammon of all kind.
Most of the Worlds Nations today have the “Mark of the world”= beast. They strive and have not. The give their lives to the pursuit of riches and their lust is always with them serving only the Flesh man. With all its desires. They are Marked with Death. Only God knows “His chosen people” that are living in the world now that will except “Gods Mark of the Holy Spirit”.= New Creation of thinking, desires, and love divine. Nothing else will do.
Romans 1 proves this point – They once “retained God” in their thinking and had a chance for Salvation just by the Revelation of the Creation..
But they turned it down and went into Beastly living and worshiping the Beastly natures of their flesh that ruled them. Even worshiping stone statue’s of animals and man mixing together. As you see in the images of Egypt’s . As if man and beast came together. Why cannot our great modern intellectuals of the Bible see this plainly. You see without the Holy Spirit I myself would have become a Beastly man. Cause we knew nothing until we Met Jesus and his wonderful doctrines that set men free. Its two choices today. Being Beastly or Being Godly – Only Two Images today. Beastly or Lamb like – 2 worlds one is “death” but the other is “Life Eternal”, only 2 Spirits that live in man and take him over – Human Spirit or Holy Spirit. Your human spirit is always lusting for things of the Human Kingdom’s. Until you are chosen for Gods Kingdom.
Their is no in between – God knew the difference when we were born. The New creation is from God only – I had nothing to do with it. I just responded to Gods call. Yielding is all we have to do. That is surrendering up or Minds and hands for servitude unto him.
Palisade
tom
i repeat my question to jim now to you:
“the beast HATES the woman.
so does Europe hate the vatican?
–
or …you say beast is vatican and woman is church
does the vatican hate the church?”
jim says the vatican is the beast and the catholic church is the whore.
Divine Revelation on all this will be revealed as prophesies fulfill.
At this juncture one can only speculate what is what, who is who. Purple & scarlet both are worn by RCC hierarchy, is just 1 huge Revelation clue.
This super power with it’s matching force, Islam, are hard to Not include in the woman & beast role.
Nations of the world since Jesus is not yet King on earth & have turned away from Truth, cannot be excluded.
IMHO, & scripturally, All play a part of both woman & beast. All are antichrist.
that is true..there is so much to think about….and so many interpretations….just keep vigilant
Amen,our focus must be on our Deliverer.
Every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall confess, Jesus Christ IS Lord!
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Revelation 22:13
Evil has no unity but works in deceptive unison; complete destruction of all mankind.
To understand this you have to know something about history.
Read about king Henry IV and his son Friedrich II, both emperors in Europe, and how the Pope controlled them.
In 1077, the german king Henry IV traveled to Canossa in northern Italy to meet the pope Gregory and apologize in person. King Henry dramatically wore a hair shirt and stood in the snow barefoot in the middle of winter in what has become known as the Walk to Canossa. After 3 days Gregory lifted the excommunication.
This was just a little taste of history. The harlot woman have controlled the beast since emperor Constantine. And still does manipulate the leaders of this world.
Balthasar Hubmaier: http://wp.me/p3tGFm-3N
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. (Revelation 17, version KJ)
And in her (city of Babylon) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. (Revelation 18:24, version KJ)
good points also
James,
You are so funny when writing, “The Washington monument is not a man. Never was, never will be.”
Can’t debate that insight. It’s real obvious. lol.
Briefly – I’ve presented significant architecture, building or monument structure often perceived as cultural symbols within the US that resonates a 666 construct.
Both, GW Monument and reconstructed World Trade Center complex in NYC have 666 built literally into them.
You know – 666 is the number.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/13-18.htm
Then, we read that the Woman sits on 7 hills/mountains.
http://biblehub.com/revelation/17-9.htm
Remember, there is a qualifier to identity the location – it is the well established 7 hill/mountain paradigm.
This city must be built on 7 literal hills/mountains. With this well established paradigm in mind – there are no other possible alternatives to identifying this city.
There are at least 4 plausible options for such a city – Rome, Mecca, Istanbul and Brussels.
Pick your city. There is only one.
Rome!
No, Mecca.
No, Istanbul.
No, Brussels.
So, let’s consider artwork that displays said woman riding said beast. We see artwork standing within Brussels before the EU building.
Ah, eureka! We found a match!
Wait a minute Chief Inspector Jacques Clouseau. We have a problem.
Da Pope in Rome (7 hills) is praying towards Mecca (7 hills).
The Woman must be the Catholic Church and her Pope is praying towards Mecca!?!
Mecca (7 hills) is the Beast (666) not the Woman.
The Catholic Church (Rome and 7 hills) is the Woman, right?
The Catholic Church (Woman) is riding Islam (Beast)?
Quoi? Cela ne peut pas être vrai?!
Well, considering the historical relationship between the Universal Church and Isis/Ishtar (Mother Goddess religious dogma) – the Pope is probably not facing Mecca when he prays. The Pope is facing the birthplace of Isis in Egypt.
What a relief! The Pope is not riding Islam.
The obelisk in St. Peter’s Basilica is key to understanding this interpretation of the Pope’s prayer position towards Egypt.
Confirmation of this understanding of the Pope’s prayer position is also found within the history of Paris and under Notre-Dame de Paris.
As I suggested to dmcal52 that he research Paris. The process of this research may add understanding to the scope and magnitude of the Woman and the Beast.
These 7 hills and the number 666 are bigger than Rome, Mecca, Brussels, and Paris, London, NYC and DC. The 666 construct covers the world. So does the Woman.
There is one symbolic connection between the US, London, Paris, Rome and ancient Egypt (before Islam was conceived).
The connection are Egyptian obelisks with their cultural and spiritual representation to Mother Goodness worship – Isis.
BTW, Isis is related (spiritually) to Babylonian Mother Goddess worship, Ishtar.
Interesting to observe (you know how to observe really well) that Horus is represented on US currency as “the all-seeing-eye” on the Great Seal of the US.
Isis and Horus are related through the application of an obelisk, spiritually.
http://ancientegyptonline.co.uk/isiso.html
Bottom line James,
Marianne is correct –
“it really is worse than we think, and more global than we think, with all sorts of connections from one country to another.”
Blessings
Psalm 64
DJ,
First, the Washington Monument is 6665.5 inches tall. Not 666. When God gives us a number we can’t just take another number that has three sixes in it and call it close enough. This is the silly part. But what it shows me is that you, among many, are willing to stretch the truth in order to make the bible fit your theories.
As for the connection between the Vatican or pope to Islam, there can be none. Islam believes Jesus was just a prophet and not the son of God. The two religions are completely incompatible. So forget trying to combine them or to create a One-World religion. As for the direction that the pope prays to, I suppose that depends on where he is at the time. The altar at St. Peters does not face Mecca nor does the papal apartment. There is simply no reason whatsoever for any pope to face in any direction when praying. What would be the point in doing so? If the pope was Muslim he should say so and stop pretending to pray to Jesus all the time. Doing that would be a reason for beheading in most Muslim countries so it just doesn’t make any sense. And you can’t take the shape and size of buildings or monuments and tie them to the bible.
Your whole obsession with 666 is ridiculous. It is supposed to be a hint to confirm who the False Prophet is. It is his number. By throwing in hundreds of other objects (and strangely, no people) you are only confusing the issue. Was the designer of the Washington monument an agent of Satan? Or the Freedom Tower? And how do these things help Christians to identify the False Prophet? They are completely irrevelant.
Now, when it comes to Ishtar, you are correct there. Ishtar and ISIS are versions of the Babylonian queen Semiramis who started the Mystery Babylon religion which worshipped the false Christ Tammuz, or Baal. The religion permeates the Roman Catholic Church and represents “Babylon” in the Book of Revelation.
There are no elements of Baal worship in Islam. Only the Catholic church and some of its offshoots. Just because the ruins of the city of Babylon lies in a Muslim country does not mean that Babylon represents the religion of that country today. That is just another false assumption used to make a point.
You say the beast is a word-wide system. What does that even mean? Are you claiming it is a New World Order, a One-World Government with a One-World religion and One world Currency? The system that will put a chip into everyone for buying and selling purposes? Where is such a system in the bible? Such a large and complex entity would be described well in the bible. It is all built on a giant pile of assumptions built on the plot of several books and movies.
But none of this is going to happen. I gave you a simple, logical and believable scenario of events happening in Europe soon yet you cling to this sci-fi scenario dreamt up by a clever author in order to sell movie tickets.
666 is the number of the name of the beast.
James,
“As in the real world, perfection is not always possible in the final form, but if it’s close, we can get the message.”
http://www.sonic.net/bernard/wnm-main.html
Here ya go James –
“The 555-foot-high marble obelisk was first proposed in 1783, and Pierre L’Enfant left room for it in his designs for the new U.S. capital. After George Washington’s death in 1799, plans for a memorial for the “father of the country” were discussed, but none were adopted until 1832–the centennial of Washington’s birth.”
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/washington-monument-dedicated
The hight of the monument is presented as 555 ft or 666″ x 10 or 6660″
James, thanks for your reply and comment. If you didn’t – then I would not have found the following fact.
In detail, 666 is at the peak of the obelisk that stands erect in the National Mall.
The height of Pyramidian (the top or capstone of the G.W. Monument) is 55′ 6″ as measured by the National Park Service.
55 ft 6 inches, which is 666″
The very top of the obelisk is 666!! :0
http://www.sonic.net/bernard/wnm-main.html
Finally, I want to make sure you read another published article, which once again underscores the hight of the pagan obelisk to the Beast (666) is posted as the accepted general measurement of 555ft x 55ft.
“On the aluminum cap atop the Washington Monument in Washington, DC are two words: Laus Deo. No one can see these words. In fact, most visitors to the monument have no idea they are even there and…for that matter…probably couldn’t care less!
But there they are…5.125 inches high … perched atop the monument to the father of our nation.
The Washington Monument is 55 feet wide at the base and 555 feet tall, overlooking the 69 square miles which comprise the District of Columbia, capital of the United States of America.”
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/monument.asp
Blessings
Psalm 64
Marianne – I will have the answer to your question tomorrow God bless
Here one little tiny bit of your puzzle.
“the beast HATES the woman. ANSWER – Israel absolutely hated Rome but still made covenant with them- To kill who they thought was a devil.
so does Europe hate the vatican? ANSWER – They might hate the Vatican but up to now they still in Covenant with Rome which is a dynasty all to itself.
Even Italy has no power over Rome. Till it is destroyed in One hour. Probably by Russia.
–
you say beast is vatican and woman is church – Vatican is the Civil nation as I said above. The church is a different entity in itself. Its consuming all the world in its hand.
does the vatican hate the church?” Heck no – the Vatican Loves the church and supports it. Why would the Vatican hate those that support it. Even though if they want to get rid of any nation. They always start a war secretly to destroy it. Just like any other government beastly nation does. The vatican is behind so many things today that the people would not believe the power it has over nations.
jim says the vatican is the beast and the catholic church is the whore. Answered from the above. Every denomination has a headquarters in ALL denominations.
Its called Nico-latians. Rev. 2 and 3 talks about the Nico’s and they are the “Seat of Satan” I told you about years ago. Their prophets speak Balaams teachings as well and becomes satans bride called Jezebel. The unfaithful to her husband. Its still in the bible.
Its all babylon except for the Bride that “”came out of her”” Rev.18:4. Praise be to God for HIS Election. I love you dear Jesus. Every believer ought to be able to say the same thing. He chose me – He has the right to chose His Holy Bride just as we have the same right to merry anybody we want to as well. Satan is married the a Jezebel bride. But Jesus is married to those that are without spot or wrinkle and dressed in White Linen. Like a Bride should be. She’s perfect in her Husbands eye. That’s why God through Jesus Christ died for her. I want to shout for joy again. I’m free from Babylon period.
Palisade – I still got a Message coming tomorrow – it deals with it in depth. who healed the deadly wound.
so the point is that the beast cannot be the vatican….because it does not hate the church
and beast cannot be europe, because it does not hate the church
You’ve got this wrong. Remember there are two beasts – the European Union (6th – revived Roman empire) and the Vatican. When the two join forces to expel the Muslims Europe will love the Vatican. But near the end of the tribulation, when the Sunday worshippers all find themselves with the 7 last plagues while the two witnesses have been telling them for 3 years to obey the 4th commandment, they will realize their mistake and will turn on the Vatican, the source of their misery, and destroy it.
Sorry I stopped my earlier reply before getting to this point, but now you know.
Dear bro. Jim – You are Making the Sabbath your seal. You are saying you don’t need the Holy Ghost then. If the Sabbath is all we have to do. We do not need the Experience the Day of Pentecost Acts. 2 – what must we do to be saved. They was already gathering on the Sabbath day but they were still asking what must we do. Peter did not say keep the sabbath and you will be filled with the Holy Spirit. But Peter said Repent, and be baptised every one of you in the “Name of the Lord Jesus”. for the remission of sins. Im not contending with any animosity towards you our your denomination. The 7th. day Adventist do have much truth. But the N.T says we have the Sabbath rest living in us now. Its spiritual not literal. Every day is a Holy Day for a Christian. Trying to hold on to a certain day you will have to take the rest of the law with it. No in between. No gray area. Just Jesus Christ IN YOU the hope of Glory.
God bless you Jim.
Question:
“If the woman is the roman catholic church, then who is the beast she rides?”
The beast/dragon first represents Satan:
“Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads.” (Rev.12:3)
“The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
In Rev.12:3 we see the intoduction of the dragon and in Rev.12:9 the identity of the dragon is revealed as Satan. That is, he as the dragon is the one who is orchestrating those events.
The Same dragon is referred as a beast in Rev.17:3, only this time there is a woman riding it.
“There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns.” (Rev.17:3)
Parts of The dragon/beast also represent different characteristics of locations/events and person:
Seven Heads: Seven Hills/mountains upon which the woman sits, which are literal hills/mountain, which is the womans heardquarters (Rev.17:9)
Seven heads: Also represent a succession of seven kings, (not kingdoms), for Scripture is clear that they are kings.
Ten Horns: Ten kings who rule concurrently with the beast.
The beast is also a designation for that angel of the Abyss who will be that entity who will be the power behind the antichrist.
“They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon. (Rev.9:11)
This angel of the Abyss is the same beast that kills the two witnessess:
“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.” (Rev.11:7)
The following Scriptues are in reference to the same beast who comes up out of the Abyss:
“One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.”
Who is one of the heads that receives the fatal wound?
“The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.They (the seven heads) allso represent seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
In the verse above, notice that the seven heads are representing seven hills and they are also seven kings. These kings obviously, according to Scripture, rule in succession. From John’s time frame, five of the kings had already fallen, that is, they had already ruled and gone. Then the angel says, “one is”, that is, king number six is ruling as John is receiving this informaiton from the angel. Then the angel says regarding the seventh king/head, “the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.” King number seven was future to John and past from our time frame.
Now here is that head, which is that eighth king which belongs to the other seven:
“The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. (Rev.17:11)”
So, in the verse above we saw that the seven heads have a dual symbolic meaning, which represent seven hills upon which the woman sits and seven kings, with the eighth king belonging to the seven, who is that beast that comes up out of the Abyss. All of the inhabitants of the earth, those whose names have not been written in the book of life, will worship that head/beast/king:
“The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
This head/beast/king is not Satan as some have believed and teach as can be seen from the following Scriptures:
The Beast
“But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” (Rev.19:20)
Notice that it is said that the beast is thown “ALIVE” into the lake of fire, which would also demonstrate that he is an individual person.
Satan
“He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.” (Rev.20:1-3)
Looking at the two Scritpures above, at the time that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21, the beast and false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire, where Satan is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years, which are two completely different locations, proving that the beast and Satan are two different entities.
Questions (if the catholic church is the harlot):
Who are the 7 fallen popes at the time of John?
Who “is” the pope at the time of john?
Who is the pope to come?
Why is there only ONE pope to come?
===================================================
First of all, there were no popes during John’s time, as that version of the church known as Roman Catholicism did not come into existence until the third century AD. Constantine (not Peter) was Rome’s first pople and which all the other popes aspire to. For Constantine was both a political leader and the religious leader of Rome, being the first pope. After the late 1700’s, the pope’s and the catholic church lost the power that they weilded over kings and peoples and they desire to recapture both religious and political control, which the antichrist will provide when he is revealed.
But getting back to the question, the seven kings are just that, seven kings, not kingdoms and not pope’s. For as stated, the Roman Catholic church had not even come into being at the time John had received the information contained in the book of Revelation.
so, if the catholic church does not meet the criteria, then it is not the harlot.
Marianne, the church in Rome meets all of the requirements. Why would you say that it doesn’t after all that I have presented here?
the beast hates the harlot.
does rome hate the vatican?
just going by what bible says
You are correct Marianne. According to Scripture, God will put it into the hearts of the beast and the ten kings to destroy the woman to fulfill his purpose. It appears that once the beast has gotten out of the woman what he wants, he will then destroy her, so that no one will be able to inhabit her ever again.
“The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” (Rev.17:16-18)
“The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
As you already know, I believe that the beast and the ten kings nuke her, which I believe is what the above Scripture is demonstrating.
so the beast will nuke the vatican
Well, that is of course my own personal belief derived from the Scriptural information which says, no musian will ever be heard in that city again, no worker of any type will be found in her ever again, no sound of a milstone, no light of lamp will ever be seen in her, no voice of bridegroom or bride will ever be heard in her ever again, etc. To me this demonstrates that no one will ever inhabit that city again. The only thing that I can think of that would cause that, is nuclear contamination.
The other verses of Scripture that lead me to this conclusion in relation to the above are the following:
“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry: ‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon! In one hour your doom has come!’ ”
“The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off, terrified at her torment. They will weep and mourn and cry out:”
“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.”
Did you see anything that those three Scriptures have in common? I do and that being:
* The kings of the earth (standing far off)
* The merchants will (stand far off)
* The sea captains and sailors will (stand far off)
Why will they all be standing far off at her torment? Kind of gives one the idea that they can’t and don’t want to get too close, doesn’t it?Again, that may be because of nuclear contamination. You have to remember also that, that beast willl rule over the entire earth with the ten kings under him and they will give all of their power to him. Therefore, the beast will have access to all the nuclear weapons, because everyone will be worshiping him as God, remember.
I never thought of the vatican as a commercial city before
BIG business going on in the city of 1 mile on 7hills; richest in all the world.
The RCC has always been political, commercial; under the guise of Christ.
I can see vatican being the harlot, but not Rome as the beast, since the old and new rome does not hate the vatican.
Question:
“Just food for thought.
Maybe that is why it is called a Mystery.
Or, …..maybe America is Babylon?”
First of all, America cannot be Mystery Babylon and that because:
“The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Since the woman is a city and she sits on seven hills, then the woman cannot be America, which is not city, but an entire nation. Let’s stop trying to force square pegs into round holes and stick with Scripture! Also, none of those other places that claim to be built on seven hills are also proclaiming to be the true church of Christ. The definition of Adultery that the woman is committing is meant figuratively or spirituall, of which the difinition is:
to be unfaithful to Christ, while posing as His true follower.
Therefore, keep the above in mind when trying to force those other so-called places with seven hills as being Mystery Babylon.
==================================================
That the woman is called Mystery Babylon first demonstrates that it is not referring to the actual, ancient city of Babylon. The mystery is that, within Rome’s pagan institution, can be found the charachteristics of the religious practices and ritiuals of ancient Babylon, as can be seen from the following:
Mary worship:
This is the transference of queen of heaven worship that stemmed from Babylon, beginning with Semiramis who was the wife of Nimrod and who took on different names throughout the centuries and different peoples, another name being Isis, diana, artemes, etc. According to Catholic dogmoa, Mary is a co-midiator, co-savior, full of grace, without sin and was assumed (resurrected) up into heaven at the time of her death. Mary was a blessed woman, used of God to bring Chirst into the world, but this is not the Mary that the RCC is worshiping, but her pagan counterpart.
===============================================
“The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.”
=================================================
Mary and Jesus worship:
This is the transference of mother and son worship which stemmed from Babylon beginning with Semiramis and Tammuz and are also represented by the names of Egypt’s Isis and Horus, as well as many other names and peoples.
===================================================
“Then he brought me to the entrance of the north gate of the house of the Lord, and I saw women sitting there, mourning the god Tammuz. He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? You will see things that are even more detestable than this.”
===================================================
Pantheon of god worship:
At the time that Constantine deemed Christainity as the official reliigion of Rome, with it came the pantheon of gods that were being worshiped, with the names of the saints being transfered over the names of those gods.
The Eucharist:
Roman catholicism took the practice of the two elements of breaking bread, which represents the Lord’s body that was broken for us and the drinking of the wine, which represents his blood that was shed for us and turned it into one element, the Eucharist. According to Catholic dogma, regarding the Eucharist, transubstantiantion occurs which is where the appearance of the Eucharist remains the same, but its substance is miraculously transformed into the literal flesh and blood of the Lord. According to Rome’s dogma, the partaker is literally eating the flesh and blood of the Lord. And subsequently, if anyone claims that this practice is just smybolical representing the body and blood of the Lord, then let them be anathema, that is, accursed. This ritual sounds like it has its origins in Mythraism if anthing thing, but is certainly not the institution that the Lord left with us to partake in.
The pope’s Mitre hat:
This hat closely resembles the fish hat worn by the Philistine priests of their god, Dagon. How did all of this junk get into the Roman church? Is any of this reminiscent of Jesus and the apostles? In no way! Mystery pratices and rituals!
The Hierarpolis obelisk:
Just a note a head of time, I am not concernetd about other obelisks around the world, as my purpose is to paint a picture of Rome and her counterfeit church as fitting the part of Mystery Babylon. As I have previously stated, this obelisk was brought over by Caligulas in 37 AD from Hierapolis Egypt and now stands in the center of St. Peter’s Square. So, the question is, what is a pagan obelisk doing sitting at the entry way of what is supposed to be the true church of Christ. As far as I’m concerned, the church in Rome is simply revealing her true nature.
“The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls.”
God looking ahead, new what the colors of the Roman liturgy where going to be and put that as a clue into Revelation for future readers as another way of identifying Mystery Babylon. Therefore, it is no coincidence that the base colors of the Rome’s liturgy is purple and Scarlet. What about the glittering with gold? This is in reference to the mention of the luxury that she has given herself. The glittering with gold is relected in the inumerable solid gold candle sticks, goblets embeded with gems and other articles made of pure gold used not only in the Vatican, but in other Catholic churches around the world as well. If you want to see the meaning of purple and scarlet and glittering with gold, then on Google or Bing type in “Catholic purple and scarlet and click on “Images of Catholic purple and Scarlet” and you will see what Revelation is refering to.
Shall I go on about the teaching of pergatory, the sacraments and salvation by works? By now you should understand that no one fits the bill of Mystery Babylon than does the chuch in Rome. If anyone is interested in a detailed, historical account of Roman Catholicism and her popes, pick up a copy of Dave Hunts
“The Roman Catholic Church and the Last Days: A woman Rides the Beast
This book takes you through the onset of the church in Rome, her pope’s, the inquisitions, her power over kings and people and much more. And speaking of power over all people, this is what she still aspires to and will get when that antichrist is revealed.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=catholic+purple+and+scarlet&id=A781522E9DD5DF7A0524678A1D7832C75F9DD420&FORM=IQFRBA#a
Purple and scarlet, glittering with gold
By the way, correction, it was Heliopolis Egypt not heirapolis.
Marianne – preface- Israel the church, and Rome were both beast that come together to Kill Jesus Christ – the Word for that day. Remember that all Israel was not really Israel. Meaning just like today. They professed to be the real Israel, but their deeds and unbelief proved they were devils in disguise. Though they were Jews and circumcised etc. This post is the Answer to your question to me. And I hope it helps whosoever will read it.
2 BEAST ROSE UP IN REV.13
REV. 13:1 ¶ And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up “out of the sea“, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
REV13:2- And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the “dragon gave him his power“, “and his seat“, and “great authority.”
REV13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were “wounded to death“; and his “deadly wound was healed:” and “”all the world: “”wondered after the beast.””
REV.13: 4 And they “worshipped the dragon” which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Now Notice: The 1st. Beast came out of the Sea. And it refers to “Imperial Rome in this verse.” The greatest killing machine of the Nations even back to Egypt. “”Rome was the Beast of the SEAS.= Organized Nations – She had all the knowledge of the other 5 Beasts behind her. She had all the power of satan in her. She had a ‘Iron will to destroy‘. To Conquering and to conquer. Rev.6:2
The mortal wound to one of the heads is a wound which should have been fatal to the Beast i.e.; the “”Roman Empire“”. This explains why that after the wound was healed and the Beast continued to live that the “whole earth”= 2nd beast was amazed and followed after the beast.”=anti-christ as the Iron turns to Clay and sticks all around the world the earht. The seven-headed beast seems indestructible, for the cry goes up: “Who is like the beast and who is able to wage war with him?”
Now the 2nd. Beast appears out of the Earth
Rev. 13:11 And I beheld “another beast” coming up “out of the earth”; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Beast of the earth = whole earth
The Earth Beast corresponds to the Roman religious authorities. They would have been like priests, but representing the Roman gods (which is a big no-no in the eyes of Christians of that day and centuries). The Earth Beast doesn’t look so bad. He has two horns, like a normal creature might—but appearances can be deceiving. This guy is out to lure you into a phony faith. That’s why he’s also known as the False Prophet. Like the Elect, the Earth Beast gets a mark, but this one indicates his evil status. 666 is the number of the Beast. It’s also the value of “Nero Caesar” as written in Hebrew letters. Check out my other post for more great detail.
Just as Israel lost their faith condemning the Living Word in their hour. Crucifying their own Messiah. They were “Marked as dead mean walking” and whited tombstones. As blind, wretched and naked and did not know it. Jesus came as a thief in the night to Israel yet the Messiah was right in their sight. As He also does in this Present time of the ending of this age they will not see Jesus Christ in His “revealed” word. His “appearing” is right in front of this generations eyes as well. He is already here and you did not know it. The Lord wants us to believe a NOW message not one in the future. Israel was Gods little “”Heaven on Earth people’’’ in Genesis. They were not people of the SEA cause God chose Abraham to leave Babylon‘s SEA of paganism. So His “seed” were a separated seed by Gods will. It was Isaac’s seed that entered the Promise land. Yet God came down in Abraham’s day and had lunch with him and said the day as arrived for the “true seed” that will come out of Sarah and become Israel the Elected ones. Remember Abraham and Sara messed it up when they produced a serpent seed called Ishmael. I hope some day everyone of you on here will understand – God just repeats Himself. And the Bride will pick it up but not the unbelievers. Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever. This verse is the key that unlocks the mystery that every Christian should want to know.
God always starts out with pure seed and serpent seed. Adam and Eve =had twins which were of 2 kinds of seed. Abraham at Sarah’s request went into Sarah’s handmaid – had “two children one serpent seed= Ishmael the other Gods seed Issac. Isaac and his wife had Esau-and Jacob. Isaac was the elected. Esau “sold out’ his birth right. Real seeds will never buy or sell out their Election. It is the most precious gift anyone can have. That is the Mark of the Beast it is absolutely a “spiritual mark”. We all might already have a chip in all of us. But if they were in us. It will not effect our “Election”. They can cut my head off, make me go crazy, put me in a fema camp whatever or kill me. It will not affect my destiny one bit. Or God would have to be a liar cause He told us Eph. 4:30 Were are Sealed by the Holy Ghost unto the day of redemption. The mark is spiritual. Isa. 54 come and buy of me water that you will never thirst again. It’s Spiritual
Palisade bro. tom
Tom,
Scipture is clear on who the first and second beasts are. By identifying the second beast out of the earth, that leaves only one conclusion as to the identity of the first beast. It’s called process of elimination.
“Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
It is important to take notice that the second beast is the one performing the great signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast. With that in mind, the following Scripture demonstrates who that second beast is:
“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
Notice that in the verse above, that second beast that performs the great signs and wonders is referred to as the false prophet. That being said, it is the second beast out of the earth that is the false prophet. Therefore, the first beast out of the sea must necessarilly be the one who is going to proclaim himself to be God, that antichrist. Paul makes mention of the first beast:
“Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
“The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”
Fist beast out of the sea = Antichrist
Second beast out of the earth = False prophet
The false prophet will be the head of that last day religious system and will perform those miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast out of the sea, that is, to support and give credibility to him in his claim of being God. They will both be real, individual persons and that because the Scripture states that they will both be thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). It would be improper language to be referring to a kingdom as being thrown alive into the lake of fire.
so then who would be the AC?
a roman?
Well, Scripture states that he belongs to those seven succession of kings and that he is that eighth king. I believe that Daniel also has information of where he comes from. But regarding this, I’m not too concerned about where he comes from. All I know is that he is probably here now, but it is still not God’s time for him to be revealed.
Regarding some biblical topics, there is just not enough information to come to a concrete conclusion, but many people do by erroneous application. I agree with that old saying, “where Scripture is silent, we should be silent.” We have seen this type of application throughout history regarding for example, the identity of the antichrist. It has been Nero, Hiltler, Regean and now Obama. These are just a few, but I know that there are tons more. One thing is for sure, in order to accurately identify him, the person in question would have to meet all of the requirements prophesied in Scripture regarding the antichirist.
666 the Number of the Beast- according to St. John & history
Here is wisdom let him that hath understanding count the Number of the Beast, for it is the Number of a Man, and his number is six hundred and three score and six”. Rev. 13:18
From the 2nd Century A.D. onwards, the interpretation “LATEINOS” has been given, because the numerical values of the letters add to 666. This identification was given by IRENAEUS, the disciple of POLYCARP (born A.D.70) who was a contemporary with the APOSTLE ST.JOHN the DIVINE who wrote the book of Revelation. It means Latin Man
L A T E I N O S
30 1 300 5 10 50 70 200 = 666
The official name or title of the popes is “Vicar of the Son of God”= ‘Vicariusfilii Dei – Means instead of the Son of God- Was written over the door of where the pope sit in the Vatican. And taken off in 1917 I believe. But he is still Vicariusfilii Dei today.
V I C A R I U S F I L I I D E I
5 1 100 0 0 1 5 0 0 1 50 1 1 500 0 1 = 666
The official signature of the Pope is “Dux Cleri” which means “High or Chief Priest”. Thus, every time the Pope of Rome officially signs a document, he writes the Latin equivalent of the Number 666
D U X C L E R I
500 5 10 100 50 0 0 1 = 666
The Hebrew Word for this power is “Romith” – The Hebrew value being:
R O M I I TH
200 6 40 10 10 400 = 666
John used a puzzle called gematria in which numbers are used to represent certain letters. John used this puzzle to reveal Nero without actually writing down his name. Remember, the early churches were being persecuted during this time—not only from the Jews, but also from the Romans. The numerical values of the Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are:

Nero Caesar fits the gematria code number “666.” Using this code, his name would be rendered as “NRWN QSR.” (NRWN QSR). The number values are:
N = 50
R = 200
W = 6
N = 50
Q = 100
S = 60
R = 200
which, when added together, equals 666. The fact that Nero fits the description of the “beast” is well documented. According to Suetonius, he murdered his parents, wife, brother, aunt, and many others close to him and of high station in Rome. He was a torturer, a homosexual rapist, and a sodomite. He even married two young boys and paraded them around as his wives. One of the boys, whose name was Sporus, was castrated by Nero. He was truly bestial in his character, depravity, and actions. He devised a kind of game: covered with the skin of some wild animal, he was let loose from a cage and attacked the private parts of men and women, who were bound at stakes. He also initiated the war against the Jews which led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD..
Nero’s persecution, which was initiated in A.D.64, was the first ever Roman assault on Christianity. Roman historian Tacitus (A.D. 56-117) spoke of Nero’s “cruel nature” that “put to death so many innocent men.” He records the scene in Rome when the persecution of Christians broke out: “And their death was aggravated with mockeries, insomuch that, wrapped in the hides of wild beasts, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or fastened to crosses to be set on fire, that when the darkness fell they might be burned to illuminate the night.” Christians were crucified, beheaded, burnt alive, and used as torches to light the palace gardens. Historically, Nero is the one that persecuted Christians beyond all comparison. St. John’s banishment to Patmos (where he wrote the book of Revelation) was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero
I have to stick with the “Apostle John the Devine” on his interpretation of the number 666. And what it means. John and his generation knew who it was. Paul even told us as well. It was Nero. John and Paul were persecuted by him. Israel was the False prophet that was Spiritually devoid of understanding of Messiah. The only mystery to this is – The beast just changes their name from one age to another age. The beast left his trail in the 7 church ages. So easy to spot if you will just study the 7 church ages. Remember now that the 1st beast was Imperial Rome. It was destroyed and up rose the Papal Roman Empire of “clay’ that rides out to perdition as told of in Daniel. Completely into the 8th. Final day we are living in right now. From time into eternity. The beast was revived and risen in the 8th. Day as well. Rev. 10:6 We are seeing it now with our eyes of understanding and wisdom. We are living in the Great uniting gathering of Time into Eternity right now.
Question -The similarities of Nero’s Character to this present time. And the Rulers of the Nations as well. Its all anti-Jesus Christ
Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition-perdition loss of eternal life.
Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. Plagues defined into Clay check it out
NERO – below
2 Thess 2: 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Now Letteth = 2722 katecho {kat-ekh’-o} from 2596 and 2192;
Possess – to hold back, detain, retain- from going away
to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of); that which hinders, Antichrist from making his appearance; the power of the Roman empire is meant; he that hinders, checks, the advent of Antichrist, denotes the one in whom that power is lodged, the Roman Emperor; to check a ship’s headway i.e. to hold or head the ship – Was NERO when Paul was writing this letter.
1c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of 2a) to get possession of, take 2b) to possess – NERO HOLDING BACK THE ADVANCE OF THE CHURCH
Dmac – You said this – The false prophet will be the head of that last day religious system and will perform those miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast out of the sea, that is, to support and give credibility to him in his claim of being God. They will both be real, individual persons and that because the Scripture states that they will both be thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). It would be improper language to be referring to a kingdom as being thrown alive into the lake of fire.
Dear brother if you read my other post you should have caught that Israel used Rome to do its dirty work.
Its the same today with Pope Caesar- The United states would be the Rome of today. America was the first to drop an “Atomic Bomb” on Japan. The Japanese that lived through this horror. Said quote – it was light fire coming down out of the heaven. unquote. America has played an important part in this last days destruction that is coming up. Now we have Obama and he is not a christian but a muslim. America like Rome is starting to crumble slowly. We are the Babylon that has keep it all nice and neat for a long time. They always. Even now Obama is not ready to drop of their support. But will soon. Because it will come just like it did in Israel. They joined up with Rome and Rome destroyed them. Today if will be Russia I think that will drop the big Bomb on the Vatican. In ONE HOUR she will be gone. And also it could be that the U.S will get the same thing maybe before or after. But our judgment is sure. WHY? – Because America is a Backslidden people of God. We resemble that church of this day. We preached the gospel to all the world. We were at one time a great light. But our lamp has went out and all that is left for America is Judgment. Grace first then Judgment.
Another thing – America is symbolized by the number 13. In her flag. Also in here first colonies etc. With a Woman statue of liberty which is a pagan sign we should all know that. Along with all the other things our brother Jim said. And I haven’t got the time right now to list all the examples of America becoming a pagan nation. All of Washington has pagan statue’s etc. Just like Rome. We got gods and denomination’s all over the place.
American also came up out of the earth. When she came over here from Europe. Just as Israel over took Canaan land we overcame the Indians and took their land away from them. And we built probably the last great Empire of this age. Just like Rome was. This Empire of America types out Israel. and it finishes as did Israel when they could not even detect their own Messiah who was right with them to the end. Israel were usely just farmers, and simple people to begin with. Shepherds, fishers of men, miner’s. But they ended up the “”ruler of the worlds” for a short time. America’s day has come. Along with Pagan Rome the Papacy with it. We have been in covenant with her for a long time now.
I gotta go my daughter is here. Hope this opens your mind more to see a bigger picture and have a more open mind to doctrines that the multitudes cling to that are all literal or intellectual ideas and schemes etc. The bible is simple when we close our minds off to all the “Sanhedrin doctrines” of dead men walking. That we “all” have thought to be the absolute truth at one time or another.
Palisade .
Tom,
All that you wrote is irellevant and that because as I demonstrated from Scripture, the second beast is shown to be the one who performs the miraculous signs and Rev.19:20 linked that second beast with the false prophet by those miraculous signs. Scripture states that the second beast/false prophet will be the one who will be performing those miraculous signs in support of the first beast who is the antichrist.
It’s very simple, if you have Scripture referring to the second beast as the one who is preforming those miraculous signs and you have the same reference of those signs being done by the false prophet, then the name false prophet is another designation for the second beast.
Even logically thinking about this, the office of pope would fit the identity of the false prophet perfectly and that because, if you have a future pope as the false prophet performing miraculous signs and wonders, then this would strengthen all of the current 1.2 billiion Roman Catholics and would draw in the rest of the world by those signs and wonders as well. The inhabitants of the earth at that time, would be deceived into thinking that those miracles and signs were being done on behalf of that first beast who will be proclaiming to be God.
You said:
“Dear brother if you read my other post you should have caught that Israel used Rome to do its dirty work.”
The above doesn’t prove anthing, as it is assumption on your part, conjecture. It is not Scripture supporting Scripture, but is your own conclusion and comparison and that without Scriptural support. On the other hand, I have just provided to you with undeniable proof showing that the second beast is none other than the false prophet. And I don’t have to argue about that because Scripture states this fact. All I have to do is compare Scriptures.
You said:
“Its the same today with Pope Caesar- The United states would be the Rome of today.”
The above is assumption on your part, conjecture. By implying that the Unitied Staes is the Rome of today, you create your own comparison and then apply it. This is the same technique used in creating spiritual Israel and then calling it he church. Once you establish that error, then error upon errors will follow.
You said:
“We are the Babylon that has keep it all nice and neat for a long time”
As I have stated before, America is a country and not city. The angel specifically told John that “The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth.” Therefore, America as a nation, does not fit the Scripture which specifies that the woman is a city. Literal Rome was that city that ruled over the kings of the earth at the time that John was receiving that information. God gave us that information to point to Rome, a city, who sits on seven hills and her counterfeit, pagan church.
When that anitchrist is revealed, then the inhabitants of the earth are going to see the Roman Catholic church come back into the power that she had prior to the 1800’s. When she had power over kings and the populace because of the threat of excommunication, anyone who rebelled against her was imprisoned, their property confiscated, tortured and burned or killed. Once that antichrist is revealed, she will again regain that power which she still aspires to. I don’t have to prove that either because of this woman Scripture states:
“In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
Anyone who has read the history of the Roman Catholicism and her pope’s know that she fits that bill to a T. Roman Catholicism was responsible for the inquistions, as well as being aligned with Hilter and what he did to the Jews. The pope’s regard themselves as Ponifex maximus, that is, holding the office of both political and religious ruler, just as with Constantine, which is where it all started.
You said:
“Today if will be Russia I think that will drop the big Bomb on the Vatican. In ONE HOUR she will be gone.”
Again, You are not sticking to Scripture. It is the beast and the ten kings who will be the ones to destroy the womanr and that because God is going to put it into their hearts to do so. So how can you say that it is Russia when Scripture tells us directly that it will be the beast and those ten kings?
You said:
“And also it could be that the U.S will get the same thing maybe before or after. But our judgment is sure. WHY? – Because America is a Backslidden people of God. We resemble that church of this day. ”
News flash! The whole world is backslidden, not just America. The reason that the day of Lord is coiming is not just to single out America, but God is going pour out his wrath on the entire earth. All nations will be included.
You said:
“American also came up out of the earth. When she came over here from Europe.”
Again, you have created your own conclusion by inferring that by America coming over from Europe that it is the equivalent of coming up out of the earth. This again is your own creation of comparison with no bases.
This is obviously an attempt to make America that second beast who comes up out of the earth. As I have already proved in the previous posts, the second beast will be a literal person, also designated as the false prophet. The false prophet cannot be America and that because when Jesus returns, he along with the first beast will be thrown into the lake of fire alive. The word alive would infer a living person that is being thrown in and not an entire country.
I stick to the word of God and that is something you ought to also abide by as well. Scripture must interpret Scripture.
“They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths”
Revelation 17:
The woman is dressed in Scarlet and Purple.
The woman is called Mother.
The Mother has daughters(who are the daughters? Protestantism).
The woman is holding a Golden Cup in her hand.
The golden cup is full of blood.
The woman is drunk with the blood of saints.
The woman sits on 7 heads.
The woman is a great city.
The woman sits on many waters(which is peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues).
The kings of the earth has committed fornication with the woman.
The woman is rich(she is decked with gold, precious stones and pearls).
The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.
The ten horns are ten kings who have not received their kingdom yet(notice it says 10 kings but only 1 kingdom).
Seven kings = seven heads = seven mountains?
And ten horns(it doesn’t say these horns are on all 7 heads, that is an assumption artists makes) hmmm?
The kings of the earth = ten horns = ten kings = 1 kingdom which has not yet come? I believe we are in the beginnings of this stage of prophecy but we are not there yet, it hasn’t been formed yet because these kings has not yet given their power and authority to the beast.
Seven kings, five are fallen, one is and one is yet to come and the eighth is of the seven.
The five fallen:
1. Babylon 606-539BC
2. Medo-Persia 539-331BC
3. Greece 331-168BC
4. Pagan Rome 168BC-476AD
5. Papal Rome 538-1798AD
The one is:
6. USA 1798-current day
The one yet to come:
7. The ten kings(this is a world wide kingdom and that currently is the United Nations)
The eighth:
Modern Rome restored.
The ten kings and the eighth rule together for a short time and during this time the dark ages will be repeated and blood will run once again. We know this will happen.
This is all basic knowledge which we all should know.
david
pagan rome and papal rome had not fallen at the time of john, so that leaves only 3 fallen on your list.
John is taken in vision into the future. He is taken to a time when the woman on the beast is drunk with the blood of the saints.
Question: Are you drunk before or after you have drunk alcohol? After, right? Papal persecutions ceased about 25 years before 1798. And the Papacy was fallen in 1798. The Papacy lost her power in 1798 when a French general marched into Rome, abolished the Papal government and established a secular one and took the pope captive into exile to France where he died a year later. It was in the same year, 1798 that France officially recognised the USA as an independent nation. Revelation 13 the beast from the sea went down as the beast from the earth was coming up.
David,
The beast out of the sea and the beast out of the earth will be working together in the future. The first beast out of the sea is the antichrist and the second beast out of the earth is the false prophet.
We can deduce this from Rev.13:13 which states that the second beast is said to be the one who will perform those mriaculous signs and wonders. Then, when you compare this with Rev.19:20 we see that the one who performed those miraculous signs is referred to as the false prophet, which is just another designation for that second beast. That said, the miraculous signs and wonders link the second beast and the false prophet as being the same person.
Scripture states that the second beast/false prophet, will perform these signs on behalf of the first beast, that is, the purpose of those miracles, signs and wonders will be used as proof to give credibilty to the first beast who will be proclaiming himself to be God. Another proof that they are working together is the fact that, after Jesus returns to end the age as seen in Rev.19:11-21, Scripture shows that both the beast and the false prophet are captured at the same time frame and both of them are thrown into the lake of fire alive.
it depends on when she started drinking….christians were already being persecuted at the time of john
Are you drunk before or after you consume alcohol?
after, but like I asked, WHEN did the woman start drinking?
so if the woman was already drunk at the time of john, then she existed at the time of john, and is not a future entity.
only entities drunk with blood of saints ( jews or christians) was rome and greece and assyrians and babylonians, and medopersians.
The woman started drinking in the time of Babylon. Catholicism is nothing but baptised paganism. Rev 18 says she is guilty of murder of the saints since the beginning.
at time of john catholic church did not exist..
this really can be complicated….gets a brain to feel twisted up like a pretzel 🙂
If you know history this is not difficult. The visions of Dan 2, 7, 8-9, 10-12 all follow the same pattern and history.
Dan 8: the ram is Medes and Persia, the goat with big horn is Greece and the big horn is the first king.
That big horn is broken and in its place four grow in its place.
Interpretation: The big horn is Alexander the Great. He dies young at the age of 33 having conquered the then known world in a short time(hence leopard in chapter 7). In his place his generals divide the kingdom up into 4 divisions(4 heads in chapter 7). They are : Seleucid kingdom, Antigonid kingdom, Ptolemaic kingdom, Hellenistic kingdom, circa 275BC.
Eventually these 4 kingdoms become 2, Seleucid kingdom being in the north and this covers Turkey, Iraq, Iran, India(that region) and Ptolemaic being the southern kingdom covering Egypt and Palestine. And this is the main subject of Daniel 11.
yes
I personally think that the AC beast will come from the selucid branch of alex the great….and this is islamic, not roman
long history of arabs killing jews and christians
After, but she has been drinking for a long time and she will drink again when that beast comes.
History repeats. What happened in the past will happen again. I already said the dark ages and Papal persecution will repeat. I mean Rev 6 says that history will repeat.
Greetings David,
Re:
“The five fallen:
1. Babylon 606-539BC
2. Medo-Persia 539-331BC
3. Greece 331-168BC
4. Pagan Rome 168BC-476AD
5. Papal Rome 538-1798AD
Firs of all #4 and #5 are both pagan and are the same kingdom. Also, though those seven heads are also symbolic representing seven kings, there is nothiing in the Scripture that would lead us to those kingdoms that you have listed. Since the first symbolism states that those seven hills involve the seven hills that Rome was built on, how do we know that those seven kings aren’t referring to a succession of Roman kings or emporers? Not only that, but your list is not in keeping with the Scripture:
* First John says regarding those kings, “five have fallen.”
* Then he says, “One is,” meaning that the 6th king was currently ruling at the time John was receiving that information from the angel. That being said, how can you have America as the 6th king when America was far from even existing at that time?
Also, the Scripture says they are seven “Kings” not kingdoms.
My point is that, those kings could be referring to rulers of the same kingdom and not different ones. That being said, because the 6th king is said to be currently ruling at the time that John was receiving that information from the angel, it then could not be referring to America, but was most likely referring to the ruler of Rome at that time.
Furthermore, where the seven kings are obviously a succession of kings, the ten kings are shown to be future kings with the beast who will rule concurrently. And as Scripture states, those ten kings give all of their power and authority to the beast.
Re:
7. The ten kings(this is a world wide kingdom and that currently is the United Nations)
Again, the above does not fit with Scripture. For Scripture states the following:
““The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.”
Scripture states that they will receive authority as kings along with the beast. Where is the beast? Because their identities are not listed in Scripture, we do not know who these men are who will be appointed as kings. Furthore, the Scripture would suggest that the beast will be appointed as king along with those ten kings and therefore, since the beast has not yet been revealed, neither have these men who will be come kings with him.
John is taken forward in time in vision. Revelation 17 is set at the time of the end not John’s own time. In John’s own time the Papacy did not exist. In John’s own time persecution of the saints had not ceased. The Roman Empire(the 4th head) was not drunk with the blood of saints.
No John is taken in the vision to the time when the beast receives her punishment. It is after all one of the angels that have one of the seven vials. The seven vials are the seven plagues that are poured out on the world at the end of time. As far as I am aware the seven plagues were not poured out in John’s own time.
Plus: 1st Cor 10:11 the prophets speak more of our time at the end of the world then their own.
You said:
“John is taken forward in time in vision. Revelation 17 is set at the time of the end not John’s own time. In John’s own time the Papacy did not exist. In John’s own time persecution of the saints had not ceased. The Roman Empire(the 4th head) was not drunk with the blood of saints.
I believe that the reference to the woman being drunk with the blood of the saints pertains to what the church of Rome as Mystery Babylon has done to the saints from her inseption up to 1798 and the blood she is yet to shed when that beast comes.
You said:
“No John is taken in the vision to the time when the beast receives her punishment. It is after all one of the angels that have one of the seven vials. ”
I agree with you that John was seeing visions that would take place in our future, but there is no where in Scripture that Idenifies the beast as one of the angels with the bowl judgment. Furthermore, those angels with the bowls are angels of God who are carrying out his wrath.
You said:
“The seven vials are the seven plagues that are poured out on the world at the end of time. ”
I agree with you that the seven bowls/vials are judgments. According to Scripture, those seven bowls/vials are the “Last” plagues which “complete” God’s wrath (Rev.15:1). That being said, if those seven bowls are said to be the last plagues completing God’s wrath, that would infer that there plagues of wrath prior to them, those being the seals and trumpet judgments.
You said:
“As far as I am aware the seven plagues were not poured out in John’s own time.”
Yes, I agree that the bowl/vial judgments along with the seals and trumpet judgments will all take place in the near future.
How any body could say “Papal Rome has fallen” must not read the current news that is going on right now. Their is a pope revival been going on since pope Francis became pope of the cc. Just like all governments that have a mafia in them. So is papa rome. In a Mafia you cannot hardly ever get the head men found guilty of anything. You would have to be “very naive” to not know that. Is a snake cunning, and hidden from view, yet it’s deadly bite kills innocent men.
Got to go for now. Will write back as soon as I can get some time.
Tom
The Papacy lost her power in 1798. Church and state was divided in 1798. In 1929 she received back her seat. The deadly wound started to heal in 1929.
David,
Prior to 1798, the Roman church wielded power over kings and people, as the popes used excommunication as a weapon. She lost her power after that, but she has not changed in her attitude or position, for the popes carry with them the characteristics of the emporers of Rome as Pontifex Maximus. The church in Rome thinks that she is the true church of Chirst and therefore believe that all people need to come underneath Roman Catholicism and be accoutable to the popes.
Prior to 1798, any one who did not submit to Roman church and her popes were arrested, their property was confiscated, they imprisoned and tortured and burned at the stake and or killed by some other method and in their eyes, thet did so in the name of God and by his authority.
The Roman church wants that power back and that is exactly what that antichrist will provide when he is revealed. I personally believe that one of the future popes will be the one to play the part of the false prophet and will be the one who will be performing those miracles, signs and wonders. Then, with the support of the antchrist, the church in Rome will regain her power over all people and that with fatal consequequences for those who resist.
I agree with most of that except your last point. The false prophet is Apostate Protestantism in the USA. This will be when Protestants in the USA form an image of the beast. That is in the process of happening since the early 1980s when Reagon sent an ambassador to the Vatican.
It is the ten kings that give their power and authority and using line upon line Rev 13 says the dragon gave its seat, power and authority to the beast so ten horns equals ten kings equals dragon.
History is repeating.
How can the false prophet be Apostate Protestantism when Scripture shows that both the beast and the false prophet are individuals who are both thrown “Alive” into the lake of fire?
Also, Scripture identiifies the dragon as Satan and therefore, it is Satan that is giving his power and authority to the beast and not the ten kings.
“This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.” (Rev.12:9)
“He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years.” (Rev.20:1-2)
Both of the Scriptures above identify the dragon as Satan.
Dragon = Satan
Ten Kings = Ten Future kings
Beast = the angel that comes up from the Abyss (Rev.11:7)
Satan is the primary definition of the dragon but the secondary application is in the time of Christ the Roman Empire. After all it was the Roman Empire through their agent Herod who sought to have the Infant Jesus killed and it was a Roman cross that Christ was nailed too. It was the Roman Empire that gave its seat to the Papacy in 330AD when Constantine gave his seat to the Pope when the capital was moved to Istanbul. It was the seven tribes of Europe that gave its power to Papal Rome in 496-508AD. It was Justinian that gave his authority to the Pope making him the head of all the churches and corrector of heretics in 534AD and enforced from 538AD when the Ostrogoth’s were driven out of Rome and the Pope placed on the throne of the world which she ruled for 1260 years until she received a deadly wound in 1798. She lost her power when a French General marched into Rome and abolished the Papal government and established a secular one taking the pope into exile in 1798. In 1929 the Pope received his seat starting the healing of the deadly wound. That healing will be complete when she receives her power and authority from the 7th kingdom. The Papacy was the fifth kingdom. She will also be the eight when the kings of the world restore her power.
Rev 11:3-13 is referring to the French Revolution. This beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is atheism The two witnesses are the old and new testaments. During the dark ages the true Christians were in hiding. They were clothed in sackcloth. Sackcloth is a symbol of mourning. This is the same time period that the woman of Revelation 12 was in the wilderness. the 1260 years of Papal persecution, the dark ages. Rev 11 verse 4 is a reference to Zec 4:3, 11, 14. Verse 7 should say when they are finishing their testimony atheism will kill them. In 1793 in France the Bible was banned for 3 and a half years. Bibles were burned in droves. In 1797 France was in chaos due to the Age of Reason. The Bible was restored to bring the country into order. During 1797-1804AD Bible Societies were established the world over. Bibles were printed and sent all over the world in several languages.
The tenth part of the city was France. She fell morally and spiritually during the Age of Reason.
Revelation 11 is fulfilled already.
A beast is a kingdom Dan 7:17, 23.
The beast also represents a real person in both Daniel and Revelation.
Where? The 4th beast is the 4th kingdom upon earth, Dan 7:17, 23.
Here:
“But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
That both the beast and the false prophet are said to be thrown alive would demonstrate that they are individuals and not a kingdom. The follwoing verse also shows the beast as a person:
“The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”
In the verse above, the beast is referred to as that eighth king, which would have to be an individual.
King and kingdom are interchangeable.
What I have wrote is nothing new. It is what Protestantism used to believe and teach.
He = a kingdom/state/nation. You can’t have a king without a kingdom.
She = a church, a religious organisation.
daniel 7:23 does say the 4th beast is a kingdom.
but
daniel 8:23-25 describes a fierce ruler of end times who fights against the prince of princes and is broken.. this is the AC associated with the 4th kingdom
It is symbolic language.
David,
Though it may be true that king and kingdom can be used interchangeably, that is not case here. For the Scripture says, “The beast who once was, now is not is an eighth king. He belongs to those seven kings. His will be an actual person as a king and that because Scripture states that he is thrown ALIVE into the lake of fire. The verse is referring to the beast as an individual. Both Paul and John speak about him as a person:
“Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.”
“Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.”
First John mentions “The Antichrist” and then many antichrist’s that have already come, meaning anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ.
You can’t have a kingdom without a king.
The antichrist is the Roman Papacy and the popes. The pope has claimed to be god on earth. You just have to read what Catholic writers have wrote over the years.
The beast is the Vatican, the antichrist is the Papacy. One is the state the other the church. One is the political aspect the other the religious.
The false prophet: The earth beast(rev 13:11-18) is the USA and the religious aspect is Protestantism in the USA who form an image to or of the beast. When church and state combine in America is when the image is formed. If you are American your laws are about to be ignored. Already your constition and bill of rights have been bypassed. Patriot Act 2001 is illegal under the 4th amendment. You have various gun laws which contradict the 2nd. And the 1st is already gone. Try protesting near the Whitehouse and see how far you get. You can be arrested and sent to Cuba without charge forever.
The systems of the Vatican and the USA will be thrown into the lake of fire. IE they will be destroyed. Rev 18 a stone like a millstone thrown into the sea. Seas are peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues(rev 17:15; Isa 17:12, 13). The nations of the world when they realise they have been deceived by the Antichrist and the false prophet will turn on them and destroy them.
Symbolic language has to be interpreted symbolically.
the beast is a kingdom, but also according to daniel 8: 23 -25 there will be a “fierce ruler” of the end times who will destroy many and even go up against the Lord himself….this is the antichrist.
The beast is the antichrist.
antichrist is a spirit.
beast is a kingdom.
more than one person can have antichrist spirit.
in the end times, one person in particular will rule with this spirit….daniel 8 : 23-25
bible says mystery babylon falls twice
David,
At this point, you just ignoring Scripture. Not everything is smbolic. You can of course believe what you want, but I know that Scripture states that the last day kingdom is referred to as a beast and there is also an individual that is coming who is also referred to as the beast who proclaim himself to be God. The beasts right hand man will be the false prophet who will perform those miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of supporting and giving credibility to the first beast who will be proclaiming himself to be God.
So, tell me David, if you were here and you happen to see on CNN that a seven year peace treaty was made with Israel and Islam by some new political ruler, would you begin to realize that the the Scripture was speaking literally? And if not, would you be one of those who will follow after him? If I was here and I observed the seven year covenant, then I would know immediately that 3 1/2 years from that time, that he would be breaking that covenant and would be setting up that abomination and that because that is what Scrpture states will happen.
the covenant with many may not be a peace agreement with Israel….bible never says that…..it may be a secret covenant between enemies of Israel to destroy it…except at the mid point the AC gets his own ideas to conquer everyone
There was a couple of agreements the Roman Empire made with Israel in the 2nd century BC.
It was Muslims that protected the true Christians in the middle east. If it wasn’t for Islam there would never have been a Reformation.
You don’t know your history.
The Bible is to be interpreted as literal unless a literal interpretation would make no sense. IE you can’t interpret a beast with 7 heads as a literal animal, it has to be symbolic.
Hi David,
You said:
“The Bible is to be interpreted as literal unless a literal interpretation would make no sense. IE you can’t interpret a beast with 7 heads as a literal animal, it has to be symbolic.”
I agree and I said this in an earlier post to you, that, “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.” This is how Scripture should be approached. Therefore, when you read of a seven headed dragon or a woman clothed with the sun, then you know immediately that this is meant to be symbolic. The next step is to find out in Scripture God’s literal meaning behind the symbols. However, the major problem that I find among expositors is the applying of a symbolic meaning to Scripture that is meant to be received as literal. The other error is recognizing what is symbolic, but not applying the answer that God provides for that symbolism.
I interpret the Bible historically. I don’t subscribe to a futurist Jesuit interpretation.
Your seven year period you believe is future is to me already history because I interpret prophecy differently. To me the king of the north, the beast and the Antichrist is the Roman papacy. If the Vatican and the USA ceased to exist overnight my world view would be shattered.
Your seven year peace treaty will never happen.
This is what you are not understsanding, I don’t subscribe to any preconceived idea, but only what I have garnered from my own studies. I can’t help if others have come to the same conclusions. My studies are my studies and have nothing to do with anyone else’s conclusions.
You said:
“Your seven year period you believe is future is to me already history because I interpret prophecy differently. To me the king of the north, the beast and the Antichrist is the Roman papacy.”
Rebut:
The problem with what you have stated above is that, Scripture states that when Jesus returns to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive in the lake of fire. Therefore, if, as you say that it is history, then Jesus would have to have already returned and ended the age. Obviously Jesus has not returned and therefore, those events could not have taken place. In order for you and others to make it fit, you have to spiritualize a lot of events, making the literal none literal.
That last seven of Daniel’s prophecy is the day of the Lord. This is where God’s wrath will be poured out on the earth and all the events of prophecy regarding the beast will take place. Then at the end of that seven years, sometime after the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, Jesus will return to the earth to end the age. Therefore, you can’t have the events of Dan.9:27 such as the abomination being set up, because 3 1/2 years after that Jesus would have had to return.
And I have already told you the beast and false prophet aren’t persons or people. They are systems, religions. The beast is the Vatican and the false prophet is apostate Protestantism in the USA. I know what my world views is.
Your worldview would be shattered if Israel(the nation) ceased to exist overnight. You are looking for future fulfilments to events that have occurred already.
Jesus preached the Gospel to many for 7 years. 3.5 years in person and 3.5 years through the Apostles and disciples. The 70 weeks were fulfilled when Stephen was stoned by the Jews ending their probation as a nation and cutting themselves off from God in 34AD. Their destruction coming 70AD.
Daniel 9 is fulfilled. There is no gap between the 69th and 70th week.
messiah is cut off at the END of the 69th week, not during the 70th.
Messiah was cut off in the middle of the 70th week. Spring 31AD. Messiah was anointed at the end of the 69th week.
that is not what the bible says (Daniel 9:26):
the 62 weeks follows the earlier 7 weeks….
and then there is one more week to go after the 62 weeks.
it does not say DURING the last week Messiah is cut off, it says AFTER the 62 weeks, he is cut off, meaning he is dead at the end of the 62 weeks.
Verse 27 says he was cut off in the middle of the week.
no it doesn’t….he is dead by then…it says the COVENANT is for one week, and in the middle the sacrifices and offerings stop.. this is due to the “prince to come” (after messiah) who destroys the city and sanctuary.
“would be setting up that abomination”
The Papacy is that abomination. It was set up between 508-538AD when the daily was taken away.
Jesus made that covenant with many for seven years when he was baptised at the beginning of his ministry. Half way through he was nailed to the cross: He was cut off but not for himself. Christ’s death ended the ceremonial sacrifices and services as antitype had met type. The second 3.5 years was fulfilled by his disciples until Stephen was stoned by the Jews. At the end of the 70 weeks the Gospel went to the Gentiles. Saul was converted and became Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. Peter had the vision of the unclean animals which was interpreted as the gentiles are not to be called common or unclean(Jews considered the Gentiles common and unclean and not to mingle with them). The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD by the Romans. Daniel 9 was fulfilled in the first century.
You said:
“The Papacy is that abomination. It was set up between 508-538AD when the daily was taken away.”
Rebut:
Regarding the prophecy of the abomination, here is the Jesus quoting Daniel’s prophetcy of Dan.9:27.
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the eader understand—16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”
Then my next question to you would be, how can you interpret the the papacy as being the abomination, when Scripture states that the abomination is to be “Standing” in the Holy Place? The Holy Place is that room just outside of the Holy of Holies within the Jewish temple.
You said:
“Christ’s death ended the ceremonial sacrifices and services as antitype had met type.”
Rebut:
I agree! All true believers know that Jesus met the righteous requirements of the law, nailing it to the cross, but Israel doesn’t know that. They did not receive Christ as Messiah and so as far as they are concerned, they are still under the covenant of the Law of Moses. Regarding this, The burden of proof is on you and that because Israel has already reconvined the Sanhedren and have been teaching the priests, according to the Torah, on how to perform the sacrifices and offerings. They have the temple furniture, the priests’ clothing and everything else required to begin worship as prescribed in the Law of Moses.
When the 6 day word took place, God’s handy work can be seen in that, after Israels win, Moshe Dyan gave temple mount control to Islam. This happened so that Israel would not be able to build the temple before God’s timing. When that Anichirst comes and makes his covenant, he will make it possible for Israel to build their temple.
You said:
“The second 3.5 years was fulfilled by his disciples until Stephen was stoned by the Jews.”
Rebut:
The above is complete assumption on your part. Pure conjecture, for there is no Scripture to tie in the stoning of Stephen as fulfillment of the 3.5 years. That is erroneous application on your part! You applied it because it basically just fits your need.
The bottom line is, in order to claim that the abomination has taken place, Jesus would have had to return to the earth 3.5 years later. The fact that he has not yet returned kills that interpretation.
You forget Rome comes in two phases. One pagan and one papal.
You quoted: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the eader understand—16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”
Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Lets compare with Luke’s account:
Luk 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
So using line upon line the holy place here spoken of is the city of Jerusalem and the surrounding countryside. The abomination of desolation here spoken of is the armies of Rome. Standing surrounding Jerusalem.
History lesson: In the autumn of 66AD Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies. For some reason these troops retreated(no one knows why for sure). All the Christians in Jerusalem saw this as the sign Jesus had told them and they all fled the city. 3.5 years later Rome returned in the spring of 70AD at the time of Passover. The siege lasted approx. 5 months. The Romans invaded the city, destroyed the temple with fire and burned the city to the ground.
That is the historical fulfilment.
Oh, the distortion of Scripture! The abomination of desolation is just exactly what Daniel and Jesus said:
“And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
“So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’a spoken of through the prophet Daniel”
The holy place is that room just outside of the Holy of Holies. You apply your interpretation of the Holy place as the armies of Rome surrounding Jerusalem in order to satisfy your interpretation. Both Daniel and Jesus are speaking about the Holy place as that room within the temple.
I just compared Matthew with Luke. Tell me where I am wrong? Abomination of desolation standing in the holy place = Armies of Rome surrounding Jerusalem?
surrounding armies is a different event, although it may happen at the same time
Are Matthew 24 and Luke 21 not talking about the same events?
I know all about the Sanctuary. I probably know it better than you do. In fact I know I do. The high priest on a daily basis went into the holy place with the blood of lambs and goats which represented the blood of Christ. If you sinned you took an animal, a lamb to the sanctuary. You put your hands on that lamb confessing your sin symbolising a transference of sin to the animal. The priest then gave you a knife with that knife you slit the throat of the lamb and the priest caught the blood and took it into the holy place and sprinkled it on the altar of incense and the veil. On the Day of Atonement the high priest made an atonement for all Israel and blotted out all the sins recorded in the sanctuary over that last year. Anyone who had not confessed their sins that year were blotted from Israel forever.
So yes I know all about the sanctuary and its services.
David,
When we see a nuke detention in NYC (most likely within the next 12 months) – most folks will not think of Babylon that Great City receiving wrath in 1 hour (Rev. 18:1-20). They will think – 9/11 part 2 and keep waiting for some sign, one of the seals opening or an end time event to fit their paradigm.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18%3A1-20&version=NKJV
I’d like to know the following from you, which is an indication of an individual’s end time calendar interpretation.
Do you see the current Blood Moon cycle (Feast of Passover/Feast of Tabernacles 2014-2015 and sackcloth sun, March 20, 2015) as the signs of the 6th seal?
“I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind” Revelation 6:11-13, NKJV).
“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of The Lord” (Joel 2:31, NKJV).
This very unique lunar/solar cycle began on Passover, 2014.
There’s been no “great earthquake” or shaking of any significant magnitude – yet.
The stars of heaven haven’t fallen (spiritual or literal) – yet.
If you say yes, then all events (seals 1-5) would have taken place and the events of the 6th would unfold as we approach the end of this lunar/solar cycle – October 4, 2015.
http://www.hebcal.com/holidays/2015-2016
If you say no – what sign are you looking to for, letting you know the Day of the Lord is at hand?
This Babylon Mystery issues (Rome, Vatican, Pope and 7 hills) and Beast issue is almost excused, worn out.
The overall issue is this – we’re not to be overtaken like a thief in the night. We should know the times and the seasons [Hebrew Feasts].
“But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him” (1 Thess. 5:1-10, NKJV)
Is the current lunar/solar cycle the sign of the 6th seal?
Thanks.
Sixth seal has already been opened. The great earthquake was the Lisbon earthquake of 1st November 1755. The sun turned to darkness was May 19th 1780. The moon turned blood red that very evening. The stars falling from heaven November 13th 1833.
This is all past history to me though I don’t rule out a repeat. In our day and time the great earthquake was December 26th 2004.
These 4 blood moons don’t fulfil prophecy. Why? There hasn’t been a day of darkness yet(as far as I know the sun hasn’t turned to darkness at 11am and stayed dark all day like the dark day of May 19th 1780 when everything went dark at 11am. It was in all the major papers of the day in America where it happened. It is well documented.
David,
The above is also an erroneous interpretation, for all of the events of the 6th seal must take place in close proximity of each other.
* Great earthquake
* Sun turned dark like hair of sacloth
* Moon turned blood red
* Stars of in heavens fall to the earth
* Heavens recede like a scroll rolling up
* Inhabitants call for the mountains and the rocks to fall on them
The Scripture has all of the above taking place within close proximity. But you have the earthquake taking place in 1755 and the sun and moon event taking place in 1780 and then the stars falling from heaven in 1833. The language in Scripture has these events taking place in close proximity to one another, being the events of the 6th seal. Following that we have, the 7th seal followed by the seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgment, all of which have not taken place.
I have seen this teaching before and it is not yours, but you have been taught this by others. I thank God that I have the source of all truth at my finger tips and that I don’t have rely on the teachings of men to know what God’s word says.
You say that the events of revealtion have already taken place. I’m sorry but, I haven’t seen any historical records of the Abyss being opened and demonic being coming out and tormenting the inhabitants of the earth for five months, that is of course unless you spiritualized that plague along with the rest of the judgments, so that they are not literal events.
This is what happens when you subscribe to a false Jesuit interpretation of Scripture which was invented at the counter reformation to take the heat off Rome because the reformers were all calling the Papacy that seat of Antichrist.
TO ALL – Jesus ministry of Grace for 3-1/2years. Then Israel’s Judgment in 70 A.d was spot on 3-1/2 years. Finishing up the last week. When we read Revelations . We must realize that Jesus told His disciples “all things” concerning His coming. Now all we got to do in this hour is know all things that Jesus and His disciples already knew. Including the Book of Revelation.
This age we in right now. Should understand what the “Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ IN THE CHURCH means”. But most do not.
Its a summary of Jesus Christ overcoming the Devil in every attribute the devil promotes. John and his elected of that generation. Knew what it meant. It was for their day. As well for our days.
Their is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN
Palisade – tom
Tom,
You said:
“TO ALL – Jesus ministry of Grace for 3-1/2years.”
Where did you get the idea that the 3 1/2 years are a ministry of Jesus. What is it with you guys that you just create these sayings and then make them Scripture? There is no 3 1/2 years of grace of the ministry of Jesus. The grace of God has been and is active now and will continue to be active even in the midst of his wrath. For one of the purposes for his wrath is to get the inhabitants to repent. That’s grace! The sending of that angel who warns the inhabitants of the earth of the consequences for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark, that’s grace!
You said:
“This age we in right now. Should understand what the “Book of Revelation of Jesus Christ IN THE CHURCH means”. But most do not.”
And you’re one of those who do not know, for you spiritualize everything, changing the meaning of God’s word. Here’s what is coming in the near future:
* The resurrection and the catching away of the dead and living in Christ
* The revealing of the antichrist who make that seven year covenant
* God’s wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments during the entire seven year period.
* The cessation of sacrifices and offering and the setting up of the abomination, which results in the desolation.
* The emergence of the mark of the beast as manditory for buying and selling
* The return of the Lord sometime after the 7th bowl judgment
* The beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire.
* The kings, generals, their armies and all who will have been gathered at Megiddo will be killed with the double-edge sword that procedes from the mouth of the Lord, which is the word of God.
* The birds gorge themselves on their bodies that the angel will have previously gathered for the great supper of God.
* An angel from heaven having the key to the Abyss will seize Satan and bind him in the Abyss during the thousand years of Chirst’s reign so that he can’t deceive the nations during that time.
* The millennial period
The above is the chronological order of events that will take place according to Scripture. That being said, the first seal rider on the white horse, the antichrist, has not yet been revealed and therefore, the first seal has not yet been opened. All events from Revelation 4 on have not yet taken place.
Jesus said that It will be a time of great distress, but with your interpretation of these events you make them common place, unnoticeable. These events are going to be unprecedented and the world will not be able to ignore them.
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are described as being like a woman in labor. The pains start far apart and not so intense and continue to grow closer together and more intense as they go and that is how these plagues will take place.
From the time Christ was baptised(anointed) to the cross was 3.5 years. In the book of John 4 Passovers are recorded. The fourth being at the cross itself.
The seven last plagues are or will be poured one after the other with no time in between. The 10 plagues in Egypt were poured out with in the space of a few weeks.
Again you are applying literal fulfilments to symbolic language and symbolical fulfilments. This is because you are blinkered in your own worldview which is false by the way. I can tell you where we are in the timeline. I can tell you what the symbols mean and their fulfilment if past already.
You even apply Daniel 9:26, 27 as the work of antichrist when it is a prophecy of the messiah. You know what the Bible calls ascribing the work of Christ to the antichrist right? Blasphemy of the highest kind and you are in danger of committing the unpardoning sin.
Antichrist is already revealed.
“the first seal rider on the white horse”
The rider on the white horse is Jesus Christ himself not the antichrist.
“Revelation 4”
This is the scene in heaven in the first century. Who is worthy to take the scroll and open it. Jesus was that worthy man. Why? Because he lived a perfect life and gave his life a sacrifice for sins. His blood makes him worthy. This scene of Revelation 4 and 5 is the inauguration of Jesus Christ as our High Priest in heaven. This happened when Christ ascended to heaven 40 days after his resurrection from the dead. The breaking of the seals represents the history of the church from the first coming to the second coming. First seal: 31AD to 100AD. Second seal 100-313AD. Third seal 313-538AD. Fourth seal 538-1798AD. Fifth seal 1798AD(which is just a question. How long until you avenge those who killed us? The answer is rest a little longer until a group such as your selves is killed in like manner). Sixth seal 1755-present day. Seventh seal is the close of probation, the 7 last plagues and the second coming.
The churches, seals and trumpets are all parallel histories. We are in the 7th church, the 6th seal, the 7th trumpet in the timeline.
Really?
So, you think that Dan.9:27 is about Christ? Hmmm….. Let’s look at the verse in question:
“He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
First of all, we need to find out who the “He” is in the verse. grammatically speaking, it would have to be the one who was previously spoken of in the previous verse:
“And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of (the prince) who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.”
In the Scripture above, the Anointed One is of course speaking of Jesus. The prince of the people, who is not Jesus, is the one who makes the covenant. The prince is that coming antichrist, the man of lawlessness. And if you don’t believe that, let’s look at the end of Dan.9:27:
“he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
The end that is decreed that is poured out on him, is in reference to the destruction of the antichrist at the return of Jesus, as revealed in the following:
=============================================
“Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.” (Dan.7:11)
“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. ” (2 Thes.2:8)
“But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
===============================================
The prince, that ruler in Dan.9:27 is the same beast of Dan.7:11 and the same beast who is thrown into the lake of fire at the return of Christ in Rev.19:20. With your interpretation of Dan.9:27, you have Jesus as the one of which it says, “until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” That line is not speaking about Christ’s crucifixion, but the end that is decreed that will be poured out on him is in reference to that prince, the antichrist, that beast.
You said:
“You know what the Bible calls ascribing the work of Christ to the antichrist right? Blasphemy of the highest kind and you are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin.”
In regards to the above, I would suggest that you consider your own words, because it is you who are applying to Jesus what is meant for that antichrist. By the way, I have seen this teaching that you are proclaiming many times, therefore, this view is not from your own study, but what you have adopted from those false teachers.
The other problem that you have with Jesus being the one who is in view in Dan.9:27 is that, you would being saying that Jesus is the “He” in the verse and therefore, Jesus would have to be the one who makes the covenant, the one who cause the sacrifice and offerings to cease and he would also have to be the one who sets up the abomination, which would be impossible. The reason for that is found in the word “bdelugma” translated “abomination” which is defined as the following:
bdélygma (from 948 /bdelýssō, derived from bdēō, “to reek with stench”) – properly, what emits a foul odor and hence is disgustingly abhorrent (abominable, detestable); (figuratively) moral horror as a stench to God (like when people refuse to hear and obey His voice).
You would be saying that Jesus is the one who sets up that abomination which would be blasphemy against God the Father and against Jesus himself and therefore, Jesus is not the “He” of the verse, but that antichrist, the beast.
i agree with this interpretation.
“An angel from heaven having the key to the Abyss will seize Satan and bind him in the Abyss during the thousand years of Chirst’s reign so that he can’t deceive the nations during that time.”
You know that in the Greek old testament translation do you know what the earth is described as in Genesis 1:2?
The Greek word translated “bottomless pit” in Rev 20 and the Greek for “without form and void” in Gen 1:2(Greek translation) is the same word. Strong’s G12 – abyssos. This is where we get the word abyss. The earth was abyssos and darkness was upon the face…
The “bottomless pit” in Rev 20 is the state of the Earth after Jesus, all the angels and the glory of the Father has come at the second coming. The brightness of His coming destroys sinners and the earth. Imagine if you will what would happen to planet Earth if the sun went red giant and that is what it will be like at the second coming. If we don’t have the new body at that point you will be toast. God’s people are changed, they receive their glorified bodies, the righteous dead are raised into the air and the righteous living are caught up together with them and we spend eternity with Christ whilst Satan is bound a 1000 years on this dead planet with no one for him to tempt. At the end of the 1000 years the Holy City New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to Earth. The wicked dead are resurrected. Satan gathers the wicked into an army and surrounds the city. Fire comes down out of heaven and destroys them all. Fire completely covers the face of the planet as sin and sinners are destroyed forever purifying the planet. The fire having done its work goes out and Jesus recreates the Earth back to pre-fall conditions. And the redeemed live forever on Earth with Christ, God and all the holy angels.
Your conclusion is erroneous!
You said:
“The Greek word translated “bottomless pit” in Rev 20 and the Greek for “without form and void” in Gen 1:2(Greek translation) is the same word. Strong’s G12 – abyssos. This is where we get the word abyss. The earth was abyssos and darkness was upon the face…”
================================================
Rebut:
“Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.”
In the Scripture above, those demons collectively called “Legion” begged Jesus not to send them [into] the Abyss. The fact that they were already on the face of the earth shows that the Abyss is not rerferring to the surface of the earth, but another place which they did not want to go. That place would be the same place that Satan will be imprisoned in during the thousand year reign of Chist, which will be under the earth and not on the surface.
“The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. ”
In the Scripture above, at the blowing of the 5th trumpet, John sees a star (angel) who has the key to the shaft of the Abyss. The fact that the Scripture says that the angel falls to the earth and that he opens the shaft to the Abyss would demonstrate that the Abyss is under the earth and not the surface of the earth.
Furthermore, the Scripture also states that after this angel opens the shaft to the Abyss, smoke rises out of it and out of the smoke comes those demonic beings who torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. Since the smoke is said to be coming up out of the Abyss and the demonic beings are said to be coming out of the smoke this would also demonstrate that the Abyss is within the earth and not on the surface.
“They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).”
These demonic beings have a king over them who is currently in the Abyss, which again is not on the surface of the earth, but under it where this angel is.
“Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”
“The beast that [comes up] from the Abyss?
After the two witnesses have finished their testimony, that beast, who is the angel of the Abyss, [comes up out of the Abyss] and kills the two witnesses. That the verse states that he is coming up out from the Abyss, this would again demonstrate that the Abyss is not on the surfface of the earth, but is underneath it.
“The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.”
The verse above states that the beast will [come up out of the Abyss] which again demonstrates that if he is coming up out of it, then it must be under the earth and not on the surface.
All that being said, when it states that Satan is thrown into the Abyss and it is locked over him, it is demonstrating that he is being restricted under the earth and not on its surface.
dmcal52 — Boy you sure get caught up in such little trivial things. I was stating the last week of Daniel was over . Jesus fulfilled it . He taught his Disciples to look for the final coming of the O.T. Which was also Judgment in 70 AD for the rejection of Israel not excepting Him. Same today.
You do not know that after Grace and a chance to have salvation. If rejected all you have left is Judgment. Filthy still or Righteous still. It seems you do not understand the simplest of things in the whole Bible. Look at all the carcases left in the wilderness in Moses day of the seals. They had their Mercy when the death angel went over them and they lived. But it’s the Wilderness what kills them the most. They could not sanctify their selves. It took 40 years for Israel to sanctify itself. Jesus gave Israel 37 years to repent after His rising. By then the 1st generation was over. It took a new generation to Enter into the Promised land. And OVECOME all of Egypt’s false doctrines of gods. Then they had the False Prophet Balaam teaching them to mix with their half pagan brother’s and committed fornication with them. And God judged them for that . You cannot mix the 2 seeds together. How can you two agree and walk together if you cannot see eye to eye. Balaam is also mention in Rev. 2 along with Nico-latians, Balaam’s false teaching turning the church of the beginning of the N.T into a Jezebel. = Babylon – By the ” Papa Rome system” Bringing Christ into the pagan’s was the Healing of the deadly wound of Imperial Rome. Bringing in Christ and joining with paganism is just what Israel did in Moses day and Jesus Day and Our day. The Pontiff Maximus of the Catholic church had it both ways. They ruled both the carnal man and spiritual man for thousand years. The clay of Daniels 10 toes was a TWO par ruling of to different kings of Pagan Rome. Putting Christ into the fallen Pagan Rome revived into the Papa Rome who really just took over the Caesars place.
You need to take a great study on just the church ages. But you have to clear out your own thoughts or you will never get the answer that you really need to understand. Heb. 13:8 God never changes HIS ways. “”THEIR IS NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN”
When the White horse of Rev. 6:2 ends up his ministry it was in the 4th. stage of death. It cannot be Christ. Cause Christ is the 7th. Seal period. The first horse rider Rode into perdition with DEATH, HELL, AND THE GRAVE. It was all the same horse but with different titles and attributes to destroy Gods people and the carnal ones as well. That is the working of an anti-christ spirit – Satan got his SEAT in the 3Rd. church age. The starting of Papal Rome’s 1,290 year reign was hell on earth. Death and torturing and blinding the eyes of the would be Christians and killing them if they did not become Catholic. Plus they started wars with Islam and whoever would challenge their Pope Caesar. They had Jerusalem but lost it to Islam.
Its in the History books of Martyr;s that the Roman church actually kept records of.
The 7 Seals are the Salvation plan of God. Death struck Adam the first Son of God. The Lord already had His 7 stage “plan of salvation” to bring back His fallen Sons of God. That was Gods original plan from the beginning. He had to let humanity experience darkness so they would come to the Light of Gods will and Word. So they would be seeking a way out. Jesus Christ was the Way out. and God knew that from the very beginning that HE was going to make himself a body to live on Earth so HE personally came to die in the flesh body to save the Elected that names were on the Book before the foundation of the world. His plan worked flawlessly.
Rev. 5 Their was not a man worthy to do it so God had to become a man and bleed and die for His own plane HE had. Oh what a God we serve. He became the Lamb of God. His Name was Jesus Christ. Our Savior.
And it was the Lamb that showed us we were lost. But the Lamb also new the M.O of Satan’s plan as well. Satan – The Nations that rule the people became their god. Is just a copy cat of what Christ was to give to HIS believers = The Kingdom Of God. Matt. 6:33. Jesus had to conquer the armies of God. Though satan tried in the first 4 seals. God was hearing the cries of his faithful under the alter. And they were granted Salvation by the coming of the Lord into them. They were sealed to begin with but just did not know it. Till Christ woke them up to Eternal life in the 7th. Seal. Satan’s first 4 stages was leading the world into the abyss of death, hell and the grave. Just as Daniel mentions just 4 pagan kingdoms ruled over Israel.
Who is the REAL white horse Rider.
19: 11 And I saw “heaven opened”, and behold a “white horse”; and he that sat upon him was called “Faithful and True,”and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
question- has God ever lost a battle.
This white horse rider is the real Savior of the world. Rev. 6:2 was a fake. He had no arrow’s for his bow. His crown was not the same as Christ as well. And Paul tells us of satan’s power below.
2 Cor. 11: 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Yes amen Paul – The end of the Rev. 6:2 rider was Death, Hell and the grave. Imperial Rome died but it raised up in Papal Rome by deceiving and ruling more people than Imperial Rome. When Satan got his seat in the church ages. It was Papa Rome that begin to rule as the Pope of light having mixed the Law -Paganism and Christianity all in one. Nico-latians 1st.- then Satan’s Seat next – then Balaam doctrine of mixture of pagan and Christianity next. – Then came the 4th. stage was death, hell, and the grave Rev. 3:1. The church was headed by a Jezebel then Death struck her. Just read your 7 church ages. Its plain. Just read the names of what the church’s meant. Them 4 are the fake white horse of Rev. 6:2 with its four stages of DEATH, Hell and the grave. The 5th. stage is a bout coming out of her Rev. 18:4 That was Luther’s day. Finally restoration was coming back to the church. Just as Jesus sent prophets to Israel. Paganism and complacency were everywhere. Israel got used to being slaves to the 4 Nations of Daniels kingdoms. And the majority wanted it to stay the same cause they were doing better in slavery more than loving their God and by the time Jesus Came ti Israel the most of Israel had the Mark of the Beast already written in their foreheads and hands. The had blood on their hands and a Mind that was fixed and could not change their dogma doctrines of devils.. Its a easy read to read in the O.T. Israel was backslidden and on its way to death. When Jesus Came.
11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Yes amen Paul – The end of the Rev. 6:2 rider was Death, Hell and the grave. Imperial Rome died but it raised up in Papal Rome by deceiving the people even more. When Satan got his seat in the church ages. It was Papa Rome that begin to rule as the Pope of light having mixed paganism with Christianity and law of O.T as well.
Rev.19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and “””his name”” is called The Word of God.
Rev.6:2 was not the word of god because its victims went to death, hell and the grave. Babylon in Rev.18 they had slaves and souls of men with them.
Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon “”white horses””, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. The Lord heard their cry for judgment upon the wicked horse rider. A New Birth is a struggle for most women in travail as the 6th. seal was. Yet the King of Kings came in the 7th. Seal. And delivered them . That was the plan of Salvation from the beginning of Time to right NOW>
All this makes perfect sense and a perfect Revelation of what God gave and did unto Christ to deliver us from the pain of the Tree of death hell and the grave.
Palisade – tom
Just when I was beginning to enjoy your posts again. Tom, I think you have a lot of wit and wisdom to add to these boards, and, well, maybe take a breath first. I don’t know. I care, and I would really like to listen to and understand what you are wanting to share, and I get caught at the point of your accusations.
“Boy you sure get caught up in such little trivial things.”
Boy you sure get caught up in judging others.
“It seems you do not understand the simplest of things in the whole Bible.”
It sure seems to be true of the one pointing the finger.
“But you have to clear out your own thoughts or you will never get the answer that you really need to understand.”
Indeed, Tom, indeed.
I may be out of place in sharing this. I mean no harm and I mean no foul. I just wish people would hear their own words, first, before speaking them. And, I should probably listen to my own.
🙂
Denise
sigh….. would be nice if the sharp words were not included
Hi Denise,
You are of course free to read the postings of Tom, but I would warn you, though he thinks that he knows what is going on, he doesn’t. The problem regarding debating Scripture with an Amillennialist, which is what Tom is, is that he and others like him spiritualize Scritpure. Therefore, one who reads the word of God and believes what is literally written in print, cannot use Scripture to prove Scripture to them. Allow me use a silly yet accurate example of what I’m talking about:
“This is what the Lord says, the sky is blue.”
The person who reads the Scriptures in the literal sense, except where it is obvious that a symbolci interpretation is required, will interpret the sample Scripture above as God saying that the sky is blue. On the other hand, those who apply a spiritual interpretation such as Tom, will say “God is neither talking about the literal sky nor its color” and will procede to distort the Scripture from its actual meaning, by ignoring what it actually says and giving it a different meaning.
Consider this: There were those who were preaching that the resurrection had already taken place and Paul said that this teaching was godless chatter and that it would spread like gangrene. He also said of them that they had wandered away from the truth and had shipwrecked their faith and by this were also destroying the faith of others. My point is, all that Paul said regarding those false teachers can also applied to those who are teaching the same thing today.
The promises that Jesus made to his disciples regarding the resurrection and catching away includes the entire church and not just the church that was present up until 70 AD. This event is what Jesus wants us to be watching for, that is, his appearing and our being gathered to him, both dead and living. None of the events regarding the seals, trumpets or bowl judgments have yet to take place, for regarding these, Jesus said it would be a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning, til now and never to be equaled again. This means that those plagues of the wrath of God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented.
Oye Vey! I am not even going to begin to respond to all that circumvented and dstorted Scripture. There is just tooo much error in it. All I can say is that, you along with those who spiritualize Scripture are very deceived and have been led astray.
Thanks for answering.
Blessings
Isn’t “shall” future tense?
In codified law, “shall” is a present tense command, a MUST, though it is usually applied at some future time. “When such and such happens you SHALL do such and such.” There is no choice, no option, one MUST follow through with whatever the command or law is. It is a present tense command because it is applied as of NOW, even though the actual follow through might be a few seconds later, or a few decades. Not sure this helps with the discussion.
“These shall hate the whore and destroy her with fire.”
This to me is future tense. If it was present tense it would they hate the whore. If it was past it would they hated the whore.
It was future sense when John wrote the book of Revelation. It was before 70 AD. The book of Revelation was a prophecy for that day. You all just cannot see it I guess. The last chapter 22 – behold I come quickly – 3 times was said to that generation that died in the War between Jerusalem and Rome.
Most of you all today. Think it is Jesus Coming in our day. But it was really a warning to Israel that Judgment was coming. Best get ready to meet your God. And it means the same thing today for our time. We living in a a very dark time. And war is looming all over the world. Better look inside yourself and has The 2nd. Coming came into you yet. That is the Holy Spirit.
To understand the Bible you have to look at Jesus day and after. Then you will see it more clearly.
I wrote a long Post above. So I hope you all read it. Bro tom God bless you
David,
You know about the sanctuary?
For Atonement to be made and accepted – what is required is not blood sacrifice within the sanctuary, but blood from the acceptable sacrifice to be placed upon the altar, fulfilling the law.
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul” (Leviticus 17:11, NKJV).
For there to be the abomination that brings desolation to occur (as many understand the prophetic passage Daniel 9:27 ) – this abomination does not require the Temple to be rebuilt.
Antiochus polluted the Temple by offering swine’s blood upon the altar.
http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/greece/2-antiochus-iv-bust-bb.html
When we see the Ark brought forth – this would be another indication of the end of the age and His soon return.
The Ark may be brought forth very soon. And, seeing the Ark would “sake up” the religious and political world, yes?
“Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a Great Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near” (Hebrews 10:19-25, NASB).
Blessings
Antiochus polluted the Temple by offering swine’s blood upon the altar.
The Romans also set up their insignia of disgracing the Holiest of Holies in the War of 70 AD.
And how is it that the Ark testifies of the end of the age. Just wondering.
Palisade
Tom,
Ya got’a read the article. 🙂
Blessings
The reborn Holy Roman Empire happened in 2009. Germany has started two world wars. Somehow, the beast will control the world economy, because the causes all to take a mark to buy and sell or else.
I think G-d the Father will throw man’s global government a bone. It is written man will have global government for one hour. I do not know what that bone will be. Some say a rapture and some say a financial meltdown.
The women riding the beast, I think is the Universal Church.
i agree. the woman HAS to be more than the catholic church…..it will be a global thing.
and the beast, which i think is islam, HATES the church…
this is a good match
Yes the woman riding the beast is more than the Catholic church.
Catholic means>Universal for a reason.
History Catholic + Islam connection, past, present, and (shall,)future…
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSOIqgxtP86eLKOs6ehOJv1gmnD9YrJEtrk-UC–mXcZJV8VPDe CATHOLIC = Universal
Prophetic mysteries really do end up with many interpretations, yet not all are correct.
In Rev 17, the issues that require distinction are the seven heads, which are said to be seven hills, of which five, ostensibly at the time of the Revelation were fallen, and the sixth was yet to come, the seventh too and an eighth, which was of the seventh.
These above are diverse from the ten horns/kings described thereafter.
Whats a hill in spiritual language? For we already know a beast to infer a kingdom system. But the beast has seven heads, which are seven hills.
Mt zion compares to the religion of the Almighty.
Babylon is compared to a burning mountain that is cast into the sea.
And in the days of the tribulation, we are advised to escape to the hills. Also when they see the Lord returning in glory, they ask the hills to fall on them to coceal them from the glory of the Lord.
In my summation, hills or mountains represent religions. In the days of John, from the beggining of time, there had existed five major religions of earth. And they all had fallen short of the glory of God.
In my language, hills are irîma, synonymous with places where there is truth.
There was by John’s time the major religions of the east which were Zoroasterism-Medo Persian, Hinduism, and Budhism. In the west there had been the Greek religion which combined roots with the Babylonian mysterism. And there was Judaism. These were the five hills/ and kings that had failed to recognise the Messiah their God and as such were all fallen. The sixth that was soon to come was Christianity, the paganised version, and the seventh was its elite head, the Vatican. Islam is just a tool of the Vatican, just as the Jesuits, knights of Columbus, and all the faked up cults they give rise to to their own end. Islam just happened in history placed to succeed over these other issue of the harlot.
For this harlot is mystery Babylon, the eighth king, being of the seven, both a head, a hill and the woman who sits atop the religions of the world controlling them. This is the connection to the world occult religion base, of which the Vatican is the king and pepputeer, but which runs across all presen t fallen world religions, from atheism to the voodoo magistrate.
But there are ten kings. Now these kings are not religiously inclined. They hate all that religion stands for. And especially the king puppeteer, the master occult head who determines the worlds fate. Its the kingdoms that resolved from the Roman empire and their ramifications. As the Occult head is in Europe, the Vatican, the European kings desire their sovreignity, and thats the basis upon which they hate the harliot that has control over them.
The USA was described as a kingdom averse and distinct from this beast of Revelation 17. But in its description in 18, the USA becomes the false prophet who serves with the beast., performing the will of the Dragon, they both. The USA thus would attract the hate of the ten kings in Europe also, for being a tool of the Vatican, thats after intelligence and counsel was effected in bringing the Sanctuary of strength-USA, into serving the will of the Vatican, which at present has been to coerce and tame and to return Vaticans first child-Islam, back to mummy. Islam on its part is the Vatican’s choice tool to shed the blood of the saints of God, and without being so discovered as the key puppeteer.
For all this trickery , harlotly, when the ten kings discover how they have been tricked and used over millinia, they will wreck vengeance, theirs and the Lord’s over the beast.
King, in my language means the gurdians of certain mysteries/truths.
Be blessed.
i think hills means regions or territories also, not physical hills…this is because the rest of the image was symbolic, not literal..ie not a real woman,,,, not a real beast
Greetings John,
We also need to be accurate when proclaiming Scripture.
You said:
“In Rev 17, the issues that require distinction are the seven heads, which are said to be seven hills, of which five, ostensibly at the time of the Revelation were fallen, and the sixth was yet to come, the seventh too and an eighth, which was of the seventh.”
Rebut:
Here is the actual Scripture that you are quoting from:
“The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.”
Notice in the Scripture above that the seven heads have a dual meaning. The first one represents seven hills upon which the woman sits. The second symbolic meaning are seven kings. That being said, it is regarding the seven “Kings” of which the Scripture says, five have fallen, one is and the other has not yet come, etc. In your post above you applied the information that was meant for the seven kings to the hills. In other words, the hills are not the kings, for they are two separate symbols.
That being said, the seven heads are also seven kings, five have fallen, that is they have ruled and gone, one is, that is, the 6th kings was ruling at the time that John was receiving that information and the other has not yet come, that is, the 7th had not yet come, but when he does come, he must rule for only a litttle while. We can’t mix the two symbolic meanings up and that because they represent two different things.
You said:
“Whats a hill in spiritual language? For we already know a beast to infer a kingdom system. But the beast has seven heads, which are seven hills”
=================================================
The understanding of the symbolisms are as follows:
Symbolic meaning: Literal meaning:
Seven heads Seven Hills upon which the woman sits
Seven heads Seven kings
=====================================================
The angel did not give John a smbolic meaning followed by a spiritual meaning, but a symbolic meaning, followed by the literal meaning.
You said:
“Babylon is compared to a burning mountain that is cast into the sea.”
Rebut:
That is in correct! Babylon is compared to a milstone being thrown into the sea, representing the violience and suddeness of her destruction.
You said:
“And in the days of the tribulation, we are advised to escape to the hills. Also when they see the Lord returning in glory, they ask the hills to fall on them to coceal them from the glory of the Lord.”
Rebut:
What you have stated above is also incorrect. The verse that you are referring to is regarding the setting up of the abomination in the holy place within the temple which causes the desolation, which takes place in Jerusalem and is referring to the people of Israel. The woman/Israel will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years until the Lord’s return to end the age. Also, the Scripture states that the inhabitiants of the earth call to the “Mountains” and to the “Rocks” to fall on them and to hide them from the face of him who sits on the throne. You are mixing Scriptures together.
You said:
“The USA was described as a kingdom averse and distinct from this beast of Revelation 17. But in its description in 18, the USA becomes the false prophet who serves with the beast.,”
Rebut:
In the Scripture, the angel tells John, “The woman you saw is that great city who rules over the kings of the earth. Therefore, since the USA is not a city, it cannot be Mystery Babylon. The beast and the false prophet are literal persons who will appear in the near future and perform all that is written about them.
You said:
“For all this trickery , harlotly, when the ten kings discover how they have been tricked and used over millinia, they will wreck vengeance, theirs and the Lord’s over the beast.”
The ten kings will be men who will become kings along with the beast and will rule concurrently with the beast in the near future and therefore, they could not have been tricked and used over millennia.
Hi dmcal52
Jeremiah 51;25 is where Babylon is compared to a burnt mountain.
Its revelation that compares Babylon to a millstone.
This chapter really has much symbolism and one may interpret one different from another.
As you correctly quote, the seven heads are seven hills, they are also seven kings… Would that not infer seven heads=seven hills=seven kings…
Its also said that the seven hills are what they that the mystery woman sits upon, yet we also know that she sits upon the beast presumably on its back. Thus it implies that the beast is composed of the seven hills, and these are composite of the entire earth, for again the mystery woman sits upon the entire earth.
I really appreciate your input and your reading of the post. In spite of our difference in this particular topics’ understanding, which also has made me to look at the clear print again, it indeed true that iron sharpens iron and it appreciated when we do thus share.
Blessings.
Morning John,
First, regarding the issue of the millstone, we must look at the actual Scripture:
=============================================
“Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
“With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.”
=============================================
The angel is using the throwing of the millstone into the sea as an example of the suddenness and violence of Babylon’s destruction. The words “With such violence” are the equivalent of “In like manner”. The Scripture is not saying that Mystery Babylon is going to be destroyed by a millstone. When the millstone hits the water, because of its weight and density, it would immediately sink to the bottom, that is, there would be a great momentary splash and then it would be gone, as though it was never there. Likewise, this is the same type of destruction that Mystery Babylon will suffer, quick and final.
Now regarding the symbolism of the seven heads, as Scripture states, there are two individual literal meaning behind the seven heads.
Symbolic: Seven heads = Seven literal hills upon which the woman sits.
Now regarding the woman, we must bring in the other clue that the angel gave John, as follows:
“The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
Therefore, when we combine the information above we get the following:
The seven heads of beast represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. The woman is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth. So, the woman, Mystery Babylon, is a city that sits on seven hills. These clues are given in order to paint a picture of who Mystery Babylon is.
Now, here is the second symbolic meaning of the seven heads:
Symbolic: Seven heads = Literal: Seven Kings
We have to remember that in the Scripture the formula is symbolism representing the literal. In your example from your post, you have the seven heads representing seven hills representing seven kings. The literal dual meanings represent two different things, in other words, the seven heads represent seven literal hills and the seven heads also represent seven literal kings.
I hope that this gives more clarity to what I believe Scripture is conveying.
Hi Marianne,
A little off topic, but just was wondering about John777,
if at lest as with Hezekiah the Lord has willed him some more days past Dec2014?
I for one do miss his posts and insights around here. Is still around, John, we miss you. In any other alternative, wish for you the peace of our Lord Christ Jesus.
Please send him our regards if you are in contact.
I have contacted john777 and he is dealing with a lot of back pain now…so he is inactive
May he find solace and relieve in his pain.
Bro John all I can say to you is – AMEN to your post. Im glad that someone can explain it. I’m not good in writing and not able to use the great words that you have been blessed with. But you are telling it like it really is. I have studied for many, many years just on the Vatican etc. And study the book of Revelations for the last 7 or 8 years. Yet you know how to explain it. Lord bless you for your post. The church world has ran off into fantasy land for long enough. Its time for us that do believe it to stand and say what we can.
Out for now. I now in my mind the Revelation. But its so hard for me to explain it in words. you go brother
Bro. tom
The TWO SEALS
anti-christ = are unbelievers that are Marked=sealed with satans image=human spirit that feeds the flesh man – We were all born with the same fallen Spirit of humanity in us. That also is God’s life form. But if you desire and lust for the tree of death for the knowledge of this World- you can become a “sealed unit” and never get back to God. Remember that Cain crossed over and received his ” Sealed” Mark that was for life along with most of his ancestor’s being evil and killers and war mongers.
A Seal means Ownership – Think of the Rich young ruler who just walked away from Christ, The rich man and Lazarus, of Judas for the love of the worlds gold. James 3 and 4 explains it why is they always war going on. Because the world is sealed with death, hell and the grave. They know not God. “Babylon is their god and they love it”. We all have a time of testings. We are born into a fallen man yet with “potential to translate” from the fallen to the Risen. 2 Seals of ownership – even in O.T time as well – People could get Born again. Then as well as we do today. From the Covenants that they lived under. The Holy Spirit come upon them.
When you get filled with the “Image of Jesus Christ.” =The Holy Spirit is a “Seal” that keeps your Salvation safe from the wrath of losing it. Some call it “Adoption into Sons” and ready to take over the Fathers business. You have “translated” to another world. Yet it takes tutor’s to instruct you into the Kingdom of God. The “World instructs you” to become “sons of perdition” if that is all you are looking forward to becoming then you will receive the “Seal of Death”. = 4th. horse rider. So you are either seated in the “Earthly Realms or into the Heavenlies realms to sit with whoever is your real Master. The Kingdom of this World and the Kingdom of God are the only 2 Kingdoms you can chose to live in. Who’s “chosen” are you addicted to. Your “Image” and Character is who you are in heart and it tells on you.
The “Kingdom of God: has 4 steps of salvation – the Kingdom of “Satans World” has 4 steps into it as well. To the Believer this is our battle while on this planet. To get SEALED in one place or another. Eze. 9 uses the seal just the opposite of Revelation. Yet it all means the same thing. Every man and woman has a seal. Their is a point of “no return” if you “sell out your birth right” for the world, of gold, or food, lusting for material things becomes your god.
Rev. 6:17 For the great day of his “”wrath is come””; and who shall be able to stand?
REV. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
GREAT WARFARE AHEAD because of their willing blindness to believe a lie. Just as in Moses day, and Nimrods day. Confusion everywhere. Yet God had “come down” to them. Just like us today. Check it out on your own. You should all know it by what you see all around you today. By the Winds of War. Spiritual blindness, plaques, nations with perplexity with no hope of ever changing. The whole world today is in the winepress of Gods wrath = Gods judgement. Our age today is as blind as was Jesus age.
REV. 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the “”seal of the living God””: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
REV. 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have “”sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads”””. This seal will bring a translation of the mind, body, and soul. Making you into an “Image of God instead of the Beastly world.
All of Rev. 7 Speaks of God Coming down to His people for to separate them by the Seals. And also taking away their tears, sorrows, and pain and seated in the Heavenlies of His Coming by the Word of God in a Cloud form. And Next – The Trumpets always blow when “God comes down to seal a Message” in the “Minds and Hearts of His true people”. Think about Moses message. If they rejected it – it was their doom yet they came out of Egypt and escaped from Pharaoh . They had a seal as well. The bible says their heart was still in Egypt. They had already sold out God and His Messenger that had the Only Word of that day and hour to “come out of Egypt my people” and become sealed with the Power of the Word of God which is your Seal from God to you.
Rev. 7 – Has the list of the 144,000 “sealed church” is a most interesting study that proves and shows that its the whole body of Jesus Christ. Israel is the Israel of God.
Till we meet again. If not in this world then in the World that Has Come already the Kingdom of God.
Palisade – Bro. Tom
Hi Tom,
Regarding:
“Rev. 7 – Has the list of the 144,000 “sealed church” is a most interesting study that proves and shows that its the whole body of Jesus Christ. Israel is the Israel of God. ”
Rebut:
In Rev.7 regarding the 144,000, please show me anywhere in that chapter where you find the word “Ekklesia” tranlated as “Church.” That of corse is rehtorical, as you will not find the word church anywhere after the end of Rev. 3. The word used from Rev. 4 on to indentify believers is “Hagios” translated “Saints.” Consequently, you will not find the word “Saints” anywhere within chapters 1 thru 3 and there is a reason for this. It is just another one of God’s clues that can be found within the book of Revelation.
In Rev.7:9-17, we are introduced to a new group of people who are called, the great tribulation saints. The fact that the elder is asking John “these in white robes–who are they and where did they come from” demonstrates that for one, this group is not the church and two, they are a new group who come out of the great tribulation period. To further prove the point that this group is not the church, after the elder asks John the question of who they are, John says, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” That John did not know who that group was also demonstrates that they are not the church.
Now, regarding the 144,000, Scripture is very clear that these literal 144,000 are sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel and that because it states that right in the Scripture. Some claim that they are symbolic representing the church, which is erroneous. First, we know that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally and that because you have John making the following statement:
“Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.”
After John says the above, he then breaks down that 144,000 into twelve sets of 12,000 per each tribe. Furthermore, the number 144,000 remains consistant in that it is repeated twice in Rev.14:1, 3. That being said, the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel are just that, from the twelve tribes of Israel. The Male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who will be the first fruits to God and who will come out of of Israel (gives birth to). This group out of Israel will recognize Jesus as their Messiah and will be caught up to his thrown out of the reach of the dragon/Satan.
Another proof that the number 144,000 is a literal number is that, immediately following the sealing of the 144,000, we are then introduced to another group which John said, “no man could count,” which demonstrates in one place an exact number which is then followed by an unknown number. After that, at the 6th trumpet, we are given another number of 200 million. We also have another number from the 5th trumpet of five months and many more. It showws that God is using percise numbers here.
My continued advice to you and others, is to stop spiritualizing Scripture and believe what it says.
Tom, what are you smoking? It must be good.
G-d placed a mark on Cain so anyone who saw him would not kill him. How do you know Cain did not repent? Or, that G-d did not forgive him?
I think you need help Tom. You are writing crazy stuff.
Hi Leatherneck,
I agree with you and I keep telling Tom the same thing as you did above, but he doesn’t listen.
Leatherneck and dmcal52 – If you cannot understand the A B and C’s of the Word of God you are the ones that are way out of line. You both are so “caught up” in your doctrine’s of intelligence. I pray the Lord will open your eyes. Its so “”simple that a unlearned man can understand it Jesus said””. Do yourself a favor and run the word “Mark” all the way though the Bible. Their are 2 seals or marks here. I ran it all the way through N.T and O.T years ago and have never doubted it. Its confirmed by the Word of God. Its not a “computer chip” that is going to deceive a person or give you a “satans” Image or Character . Its your “Spirit” that is living in you. Is it “fallen” still or has it “Raised in the Power of the Holy Spirit with Christ Character, and Image, and servitude, meaning engraving Character.
A SEAL MEANS OWNERSHIP – ITS SPIRITUAL – Their is only 2 spirits that control a human being. Its your “fallen spirit” our the “Raised Spirit of the Holy Spirit. Cannot be both. ONLY ONE RULES YOUR SPIRIT MAN. You are a Celestial Spirit living in your flesh man that controls it. Or its the Terrestrial fallen spirit that controls your flesh man. You cannot Serve TWO master Jesus said. If you are Spiritual you will want to understand the “Spiritual things of the Bible”. If you are just a “natural man you will not desire the Spiritual mysteries of the Word. Cause your intellectual mind has to be conformed into Christ mind. THE WORD CHRIST MEANS – THE ANOINTING OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD. It does not mean you have a intellectual understanding of Spiritual things also. The HOLY GHOST IS YOUR GUIDE.
Did either one of you read Eze. 9 — I doubt it. It speaks of a “Mark of the religious ones” who were yet sinners”. Same as the “Mark of the Beast”. These were the Priest that were pagans and God sent an Angel who “marked them for death” and they was the first to receive it and it went on down to the common people that listened to them. Hello – For your own sake when you gonna wake up. Its the same number in Hebrew that Cain had. I’m really sorry you all cannot get that simple understanding. It must be to simple for you. God help us today.
Some will never get it. Matt. 13:10 and on. Jesus is saying the same thing I am saying. ONLY 2 seeds in the ground. The Human being are the ground that the seeds fall into. Only 2 seeds. Satan’s seed and Gods seed. Prove that is wrong to me. If you do you will have to tear out hundreds of pages out of the Bible to do it.
If you have never got Gods seed of the Word of God showing fruit of His Mind, and Character, and Understanding His lovely love letters that He sent to His Bride the faithful and true. Read Eze. 9 then read Revelations where it says they were Sealed. That is His chosen Bride. Satan has a Bride as well. St John 10:10 to 12 or 13. Im just trying to help you understand.
No man speak like this man- That’s what they said about Jesus Christ.
Palisade – Also means mark – A fortress of God or satan
I think a spiritual mark or seal precedes any outward physical sign
Hi Marianne,
The sealing of the 144,000 of the tribes of Israel, is the seal of God on their foreheads. This will be a seal of ownership for them. During this time, Scripture states that it is only those 144,000 who are sealed, which means that though the great tribulation saints belong to Christ, they are not sealed. Whether this seal is visible or not, one thing is for sure and that is that those demonic beings that come up out of the Abyss will be able to see it and that because Scripture states the following:
“They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.”
In Rev.7, we see that it is the 144,000 who are the only group to receive that seal and no where else is anyone said to be sealed. Therefore, it is only those 144, 000 who will be exempt from that the torment of the 5th trumpet. To say that others are sealed in addition to the 144,000 would be to go beyond Scripture by guessing or assuming. To say that the 144,000 is anyone other than the twelve tribes of Israel would be to plainly ignore Scripture and that because it positively identifies that group as being from the twelve tribes of Israel.
dmcal
so why would god only seal some of his saints, and let the rest be destroyed?
HI Marianne,
I don’t think that you are understanding who the 144,000 are. This is a specific group of people, the first fruits to God out of the unbelieving nation of Israel. They are not Gentiles, they are not the church, they are not the great tribulation saints. They are 144,000, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of Israel just as the Scripture proclaims. God has reserved this group of 144,000 out of Israel for himself.
God has been in the process of building his church up to this very day and will continue to do so until everyone whom God has chosen, comes to him. Once the church has been built, then the Lord will appear and gather us to him just as I Cor.15:51-53, I Thes.4:16 and 2 Thes.2:2 states and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed. The other groups that will be on earth after that the church has been removed will be the great tribulation saints, the woman (Israel) and the 144,000 that come out of her, that is, gives birth to. Everyone on earth during that time period will be exposed to God’s wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The 144,000 will be the only group that is exempt from those demonic beings who are let out at the 5th trumpet, for they will be the only ones with the seal of God on their foreheads. To answer your question:
“so why would God only seal some of his saints, and let the rest be destroyed?”
This why Jesus warned his disciples and us regarding the following:
““Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
True believers are supposed to always be watching and continuing in faith, being prepared so that that day does not take us by surprise. The way of escape will be through the resurrection and catching away. Those who are not watching and anticipating the Lord’s return will be left here and will be exposed to all the wrath of God and all that will take place regarding the beast and the false prophet. I’m guessing that a big majority of the great tribulation saints will be those who professed Chist, but will have been living according to he sinful nature and will not be ready when the Lord returns for the church and who will realize what has happened when the church has been removed and they will then know that persecution and death awaits them by keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. They will know according to Scripture that they must resist the beast, his image and his mark if they want to have eternal life.
In order to escape the wrath that is coming, we need to stick close to the Lord, continuing in faith, in prayer, applying God’s word to our lives, loving all people as ourselves, returning good for evil. or as Jesus said,
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.”
i see several “groups.”
the 144000
the unbeliving jews
the believing christians who are not ready
the believing christians who are ready…
i am assuming that only the last group makes the rapture at the 6th seal, so they avoid the wrath..
but the others will face hardships…..and hopefully will make it to the end, but it looks dismal..
at some point Israel will be saved, but sorting out when and how each group is treated with how much chastisement is unclear to me
HI Marianne,
The following groups will be present during that time:
* The great tribulation saints (Gentiles believers)
* The 144,000 from the twelve tribes of literal Israel
* The woman (Israel) who will be cared for out in the desert
* The rest of mankind who will worship the beast
The last time the church is mentioned is at the end of Rev.3 and from chapter 4 on and it is never mentioned within the narrative regarding God’s wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The next time we see the word “church” is in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative regarding the events that will be taking place. Also, The first four seals are also included as being God’s wrath and that because Jesus is the one opening the seals and therefore, the fourth of the earths population being killed at the 4th seal is directly by the Lord’s own hand, ergo, God’s wrath. The wrath of God is exactly what the seals, trumpets and bowls represent. To try to separate tribulation from God’s wrath is in error, because his wrath and the events of the beast run parallel through that entire time period.
Tom,
You said:
“Leatherneck and dmcal52 – If you cannot understand the A B and C’s of the Word of God you are the ones that are way out of line. You both are so “caught up” in your doctrine’s of intelligence. I pray the Lord will open your eyes. Its so “”simple that a unlearned man can understand it Jesus said””. Do yourself a favor and run the word “Mark” all the way though the Bible. ”
First of all, I understand the A, B and C’s of the word of God very well, as I have been studying it for over 40 years now. Your study of the mark throughout the bible will do you no good, as the mark of the beast is specific to what is going to take place in the very near future. I know that you don’t believe or understand that right now, but you will. The mark that is coming is unprecedented in history. There is no other time in the history of the world where the prophecy regarding the mark of the beast could be fulfilled and that because it involves technology. Just as the debit card is currently the key that allows access to a persons bank account for crediting and debiting, in the future, when that antichrist comes, then so also will his mark, which will be a literal sub dermal device that will perform the same functions as the debit card and more. I don’t have to prove that, because the technology is already in use in animals, in products and people.
As I said in many previous posts, I have been watching the evolution of the system that the mark will utilize. I know that you don’t understand right now, being that you have only been studying Revelation for 7 or 8 years, but just keep watching and you will see this system continue to evolve. I had started studying Revelation over 40 years ago and that before any of the related technology had come out. Then I observed when the first ATM machines came out, followed by the universal product codes (UPC) and the point of sale (POS), which allowed people to begin to debit their bank accounts via the debit card in real time. Then the system evolved so that now individuals are able to credit and debit each others accounts with devices such as “The Square,” as well as other applications and devices that allow crediting and debiting.
This technology had to precede the coming of the antichrist so that the system would be set up and ready to go by the time he was revealed. This is exactly why there has been and currently is such a great push by the banks and other businesses world wide for all people to move from paying bills via remittance by invoice and check, to automatic deduction or by paying on-line via phone, computer, or by any number of other devices. People have been and are using the very system that is being prepared for the coming mark and they don’t even realize it.
Even if you don’t believe now, continue to keep your eyes on this system and the technology and you will see what I am talking about. When that antichrist comes, then the system will already have been set up and then the only thing that will need to take place is the change from debit card to that mark. In the verse regarding the mark, it states that:
“He forces all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark in his right hand or forehead and except anyone had the mark they would not be able to buy or sell.”
I personally believe that the way in which he “Forces” the inhabitants to receive the mark is not by physical force, but by making cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete, so that only those having the mark will be able to credit and debit their bank accounts. Subsequently, at that time, anyone who doesn’t have the mark will not be able to be apart of the world system and that because all financial transactions will be done electronically, with the mark being the access key.
All that being said, I have nothing against you personally. God has given me a great zealousness for the truth and accuracy of his word, which is why whenever I see or hear these false teachings, I am moved to correct and to contend for the truth. Jesus is coming soon to gather the entire church, dead and living, before he begins to pour out his wrath upon this earth. So, you are free to continue believing what you have been taught, but do yourself a favor and just begin to watch the continued evolution of this electronic credit and debit system as it continues to make way for the coming mark.
Dear dmcal – It ain’t how long you been studying – Truth comes by the Spirit and Reveals to you the Truth.
Everything you say about the “Mark of the Beast” is in the worldly physical sense. Of buying into some made by Mans hands. I prefer to live in the “Spirit of the Kingdom of God now” as God told me to live. You think it is all physical. Cannot buy, our you cannot do this , or a cashless society and or a chip “made with hands of men” is going to doom you for 3-1/2 years etc. All the Mark of the Beast means is that you are lost and undone without Jesus or His Son. Can you be foolish enough to believe that. Did you know that the Catholic Church did the same thing when they ruled for 1,260 years. If you did not belong to the Catholic church system.= Babylon church system of men over men. A government. Then you were cut off and excommunicated from the society that was run by the worldly power of the Universal church. Yes but that “”did not take away the “”Seal of Gods Spirit off the people”” that were believers . And they kept their garments clean and white in a society that hated them. Yes many died for the faith. Cause they had the ‘Mark of God sealed in their minds and hearts’ and would never give up their faith in their Salvation by Jesus Christ.
If you have studied Revelation for 40 years you must have missed all of the “Dark ages”that the Catholic church =Nicolatians, Balaams, and jezebel church did to the peasants that were ‘Sealed with Jesus Christ Spirit’. Satans seat was set up on earth then. And also the real Scholars that were Sealed by the Holy spirit as well. “William Tyndall” was a great young man that interpreted the Bible in German so the common people could read what it said. He died on a fiery stake for it. They would rather die than have to eat the bread of death of the Beastly systems of mankind. Many went out on their own and took care of their families to get away from the “Beast of that day”. Have you ever heard of the great “Inquisition” hunting down the true Christians and or anybody that defied the Universal church doctrines.
Anybody that the church deemed not a faithful member in standing was a possible candidate for death and burning at the stake which was a regular scene in that day. Nero kind of liked that way as well. The Catholic church actually made up their own inventions how to kill the believers slowly. This is in your history books. History is 20/20 especially if you have the Word of God to agree with it. It is an absolute fact. “Thus saith the Lord” Not somebodies modern inventions.
The martyr’s of the “dark ages” had their 5th. seal as we also have in this generation and also the 6th. and 7th. Yes Christ came and that generation or age I should say passed away for another New age to take over. Called the end of the world=age. The N.T and Revelations was “”not Written just for the last century”” to know. Do you understand that The SEAL is Jesus Christ IN YOU. The Holy Spirit.
From the Resurrection of Christ to right NOW> You futurist always skip the thousands of years of the night mares of the “Mark of the beast” always being on this earth even in John’s day he said it. I’m not sorry for telling you the truth. God gave Cain his chance and Cain went his OWN WAY. He “rejected Gods way of atonement” and he chose to be lost than to be one of the believers. Just like Judas had a chance. But God knows His own seed.
Is their still a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that kills mans Soul- YES — Is there still a “Tree of life” in the N.T restoring the Soul. YES = 2 seeds only – only 2 you can serve. The worlds spiritual systems. – or the Heavenly Kingdom that Christ died for the Believer’s to possess. NOW – Its plain as day in the Bible. My dear friend.
Last example – Just a few weeks ago. A whole family including 3 sons I believe in this family. Their dad would not recant his Love for Jesus Christ. And His 3 sons bowed down on their knee’s with him. And Islam cut their heads off. Hey this just happened. Who had the “Mark of the Beast” in them and who had the “Mark of God in them” when it happened. Wake up its not a chip. Not buying just selling in the worlds goods. Its buying into the Holy Spirit that Jesus gave us freely. But when you buy into Gods Spirit it is free but your life is His to do with as HE pleases.
Palisade.
Tom said:
“Dear dmcal – It ain’t how long you been studying – Truth comes by the Spirit and Reveals to you the Truth.”
Rebut:
And I have both that time in Study and the Holy Spirit who revealed these truths to me over those years. It always amazes me when people disregard the length of time that person has put into studying and they try to diminish it by claiming that the person is speaking from intellect and not by the Spirit.
Tom said:
“Everything you say about the “Mark of the Beast” is in the worldly physical sense. Of buying into some made by Mans hands.”
Scripture says:
“This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.”
Rebut:
So, according to Scripture, the mark is “the number of a man” So yes, according to Scripture it is worldly and physical.
Tom said:
“You think it is all physical. Cannot buy, our you cannot do this , or a cashless society and or a chip “made with hands of men” is going to doom you for 3-1/2 years etc.
Scripture says:
“He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.”
What: The mark of the beast
Who: He forces all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave
Where: On their right hands of foreheads
Why: So that no one could buy or sell unless they had the mark
Tom said:
“or a cashless society and or a chip “made with hands of men” is going to doom you for 3-1/2 years etc. All the Mark of the Beast means is that you are lost and undone without Jesus or His Son.”
Scripture says:
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
Tom, It’s not going to doom people for just 3 1/2 years, but for all eternity, just as the Scripture above plainly states which you are ignoring.
Tom said:
“All the Mark of the Beast means is that you are lost and undone without Jesus or His Son.”
Rebut:
Tom, you don’t need to receive the mark of the beast to be lost and undone, for everyone who has come into the world and continues to reject Christ is already in that state and the mark is not needed for this. The coming mark of the beast however will be the ultimate rebellion against God, for those who receive it will be directly rejecting God and siding with Satan by receiving it and that to save their own lives.
Tom said:
“If you have studied Revelation for 40 years you must have missed all of the “Dark ages” that the Catholic church =Nicolatians, Balaams, and jezebel church did to the peasants that were ‘Sealed with Jesus Christ Spirit’. Satans seat was set up on earth then. And also the real Scholars that were Sealed by the Holy spirit as well. “William Tyndall” was a great young man that interpreted the Bible in German so the common people could read what it said. He died on a fiery stake for it. They would rather die than have to eat the bread of death of the Beastly systems of mankind. Many went out on their own and took care of their families to get away from the “Beast of that day”. Have you ever heard of the great “Inquisition” hunting down the true Christians and or anybody that defied the Universal church doctrines.”
Rebut:
As I said before, people of all walks of the church period have suffered trial and tribulation, but what is written in the book of Revelation is specific to the future, the end of the age. That time period will be identifiable by the people of that time by observing what is written regarding those seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as all that is written regarding this coming antichrist/beast and the false prophet. The information in the book of Revelation is regarding the church, the wrath of God and the return of the Lord to end the age.
Tom said:
“Anybody that the church deemed not a faithful member in standing was a possible candidate for death and burning at the stake which was a regular scene in that day. Nero kind of liked that way as well. The Catholic church actually made up their own inventions how to kill the believers slowly.”
Rebut:
Again, all that you mention above is common trial and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which is what the Apostles suffered, as well all of those people who you mentioned above. However, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God, will be initiated directly by him upon the inhabitants of the earth during the day of the Lord and that because those people will continue to be unrepentant and continue to reject Jesus Christ, who shed his blood for them.
Tom said:
“Last example – Just a few weeks ago. A whole family including 3 sons I believe in this family. Their dad would not recant his Love for Jesus Christ. And His 3 sons bowed down on their knee’s with him. And Islam cut their heads off. Hey this just happened. Who had the “Mark of the Beast” in them and who had the “Mark of God in them” when it happened. Wake up its not a chip. Not buying just selling in the worlds goods. Its buying into the Holy Spirit that Jesus gave us freely. But when you buy into Gods Spirit it is free but your life is His to do with as HE pleases.”
Rebut:
This is getting tiresome! It is a sad thing to hear, but if that did take place, then it was God’s will for them to suffer for him and to glorify him in their persecution and deaths and is what every true believer should pray about and be prepared to do as well. But again, you continue to confuse trial and tribulation at the hands of men and the powers of darkness with the wrath of God. These are not the same. Those who are suffering persecution and death do so for the glory of God and will receive reward and eternal life. However, a time is coming when God will pour out his wrath directly upon mankind by his own doing and that because of their continued disobedience and rebellion against him.
Dmac – I can also explain without a doubt that the 144,000 is the Whole Bride of Christ of O.T and N.T. Just by their names only. All of Gods children have been Sealed with Gods Spirit in O.T and N.T. But who could receive it in this day. We are bound by doctrines of foolish men of intellect. If you believed it . You would have to throw your whole doctrines out the windows. The Bible dove tails always. Just like a puzzle. You try and fit one in where it does not fit.
Humanity has been going through tribulations every since mankind was planted on this earth. Ages come and Ages go. Is God partial in His ways. Absolutely not. Martin Luther and Tyndall knew more about the “Mark of the Beast” and anti-christ than most of our so called great men of today will ever know and lets through in Wesley as well. They both knew who was the Beast in their day and they knew a anti-christ was a person not Filled with the Holy Spirit. They were filled with the Holy Spirit. Luther it is said had all the gifts of the spirit coming out of him. But it was “his revelation that changed the ages for that day. From one of darkness to the great en-lightment which educated non-believers and also True believers. They finally got the printing presses of the Word of God and yet regretfully the world as usual got worldly intellectual wisdom the great light of satan’s lie.
Palisade – I’m praying for you.
Tom said:
“Dmac – I can also explain without a doubt that the 144,000 is the Whole Bride of Christ of O.T and N.T. Just by their names only.”
Rebut:
Then you are just ignoring Scripture completely Tom. For the context plainly states that they are 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. But because you and others apply a spiritual meaning to that group instead of believing what is plainly stated in the context, you distort and circumvent God’s word.
Regarding this, I keep wondering how God could ever get his point across to you and those like you when you refuse to believe what is written. Scripture says their number is 144,000 and I agree that their number is 144,000. You and others on the other hand, spiritualize the number and the people, making it an unknown number and the church and thereby distort the word of God. What does God have to do in Scripture, does he have to say, “No, really” at the end of every verse? The number is literally 144,000.” How could God get the point across to you that what he says, he literally means. And the only reason for this misinterpretation of Scripture is because you are believing in someone else’s teachings instead of God’s.
Also, your spouting this stuff about intellect, when my knowledge of God’s word comes from Scripture and by my own understanding. People usually claim this type of thing of other people to protect the interpretation that they have been taught, which tells me that you are more concerned about protecting these false teachings opposed to being open to the truth of Scripture.
Tom said:
“Humanity has been going through tribulations every since mankind was planted on this earth. ”
And as I continue to tell everyone, there is a big difference between common trial and tribulation for believers, which comes at the hands of the unrighteous with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, opposed to God’s wrath, which is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Believers are always exposed to trial and tribulation, but the wrath of God that is coming upon the entire earth will be unprecedented with the Christ returning at the end of it. True believers cannot be here during the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because Scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. Any wrath at all and that because Jesus took the wrath that we deserve upon himself and therefore, those who have faith in him, God’s wrath as a result for sin has been appeased by Jesus, setting us free of the consequences of sin.
Tom said:
“Martin Luther and Tyndall knew more about the “Mark of the Beast” and anti-Christ than most of our so called great men of today will ever know and lets through in Wesley as well.”
No they didn’t know more about the mark of the beast Tom and do you know why? Because the technology didn’t exist during their times. There has been no time in history where believers can understand and see the prophecy regarding the coming mark than today and that because we are already seeing the system being set up that the mark will. Therefore, since they did not have the technology that we do today, they did not have that piece of the puzzle to be able to identify what John was seeing in his vision of the future.
Cain’s seal was specific to him so that others would know not to kill him.
The seal that the 144,000 receive is specific to them as being the first fruits to God out of the twelve tribes of Israel and has nothing to do with the mark of the beast or Cain’s seal.
The mark of the beast is a specific mark that will go in the right hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell and that because it will use the technology of today to allow crediting and debiting of ones bank account and will also serve as a form of worship to the beast.
I’m just wondering, when you see these things taking place will you ignore them even when you see people standing in lines to get their personal identification chip or will you have enough sense to recognize that you were wrong with your spiritual interpretation?
You need to pray for yourself and that because I know the true of Scripture. It is you who have been deceived and you need to believe what you are reading in plain print and stop spiritualizing God’s word.
Dmcal
Dmcal – you said The number is literally 144,000.”
Answer: Well we all know you are a literalistic person.
You Said – And as I continue to tell everyone, there is a big difference between common trial and tribulation for believers, which comes at the hands of the unrighteous with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background, opposed to God’s wrath
Answer – Well then I guess you think dying in horrible ways by war, and famine, and weather conditions, and sickness, and plagues of all kinds since the beginning of time. Were not trials, plagues, or the “””wrath of God”””.= brings total death to the unbeliever. What you said is “absurd” to say the least. Unbelief always brings judgments upon humanity. Dear Brother I cannot believe you think that way. And its the opening up of the Seals as well. One gets “Saved” and the others that are not saved “dies”. Period – Jesus said one will be taken and the other left. Jesus said come unto me and I will give you Life = Eternal life. The ones that will not come to Jesus. Have the Mark of the Beast, Or I could say the Mark of the World Or I could say the Mark of the flesh, Or I could say Mark of the beast that lives within a Human soul that has not ever been converted to a lambs soul.
You said about – Luther and Tyndall. No they didn’t know more about the mark of the beast Tom and do you know why? Because the “”technology didn’t exist during their times”” –
Answer – “”Its not technology”” that brings in the “Mark of the Beast” it is caused by “”sin and unbelief in the living God and not retaining God even in their thinking that brings perversion and death =Wrath. Your SOUL has to be revived by the Faith in Jesus Christ . Technology has nothing to do with the Mark of the beast or receiving the Holy Spirit. Its Spiritual, Its Spiritual things. Heck the CC did not have a hard time finding people to kill in the dark ages. Same in Jesus day. You just say you was a Christian and that was a death sentence. By the people that had the “Mark of the Beast” how can we all be so blind and cannot see this very vivid truth. Its to simple and would blow away all this stupidity that the church is spilling out to their churchs. They are mostly Pollyanna preachers. Its a career, its money, a job, house furnished, bills paid, and a good paycheck every week with no tax’s.
Rebuttal back on – Martin Luther and Tyndall knew more about the “Mark of the Beast” and anti-Christ than most of our so called great men of today will ever know and lets through in Wesley as well.” Well look at their commentaries. They all knew who the Anti-christ and Nico-latians Beast church was. It was the Jezebel who said I have a husband but she lied about it. Rev. 18.
Luther himself said the Pope was anti-christ and the whole system of Catholicism was also anti-christ the whore of Revelations 17 and 18. That is more than most learned know today.
You said – The seal that the 144,000 receive is specific to them as being the first fruits to God out of the twelve tribes of Israel and has nothing to do with the mark of the beast or Cain’s seal.
Answer is below on this Question. But Remember It was Abraham that God used to start the age of Israel. Then 430 years later. Moses started another age. The N.T is speaking of ages then to now in the same way.
God bless you dmac – at least you willing to talk about it. As I am.
Palisade – Bro Tom
Proving the “Israel of God” in one Bride O.T & N.T – Rev. 7- 144,000
Two or three chapters of Genesis describe why each tribe was called by the name it was, it goes into the details of how the mother felt the day she got pregnant, how she felt when she was having the baby, and why the mother called the child that name. The events around the birth of those boys were so arranged by God, that when you put the names together, you suddenly hear the whole gospel in the names of those boys. Now we can understand why one has to be left out here, and one has to be left out there, because they do not fit this picture. This picture is an unfolding revelation of Jesus Christ and His whole Bride.
The first name is Judah. Judah means Praised or celebrated.
The second name is Reuben. The name Reuben means Behold a Son.
The third one is called Gad. Gad means a Great Company,
The fourth name is Asher. The name Asher means ‘Happy’, ‘Joy filled’.
The fifth name is Naphtali. Naphtali means to wrestle and overcome.
The sixth name is Manasseh. Manasseh means ‘forgetting’. Joseph gave that name to his son – remember when Joseph was sold down the river to Egypt and thrown into prison as a slave, finally after it was all over, he was made prime minister, he married and had his son Manasseh – finally I have forgotten all my troubles, and I have forgotten all the ill that was done to me.
The seventh name is Simeon. Simeon means ‘hearing’ ‘My sheep hear my voice’ this is another key verse to the early part of Revelation – He who has ears to hear, let him hear ‘
The eighth name is Levi. Levi means ‘joined to’.
The ninth name is Issachar. Issachar means ‘A price was paid’.
The tenth named is Zebulon which means a dwelling-place. Ephesians 2.20 says that we have become the dwelling place of God through the Spirit.
The eleventh mentioned is Joseph. Joseph means ‘Adding, fruitful’
Then lastly number twelve Benjamin. Rachel died giving birth to Benjamin, and as she was dying, she took the little child, and because of the horror and agony of her death, she named him “Banoni” and Banoni means ‘Son of my deep sorrow’. The Father would have none of it, and he changed the name of Banoni to Benjamin, which means ‘Son of my right hand’.
This is a perfect picture of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Banoni-Benjamin. He is the Son of my sorrow, and after the sorrow was over, he arose again and became the Son of his Father’s right hand.
And so this great company could be looked at from all those twelve different angles, and you could say, this is the “Israel of God“.
Israel is not a nation like India or France, but it is a nation of believers with a heartfelt faith for God. All through the Old Testament Israel is seen as the vine. Jesus said I am the true vine! In other words I am the true “Israel of God”. “”The Israel of God can only be found in Jesus””. The Bible is about HIM, and the book of Revelation is about Him. The first sentence in the book of Revelation states, “This is the revelation of Jesus Christ.
“”The true Israel of God starts with the promise made to Abraham””. The Israel of God is made up of all of the Old Testament believers that are looking forward to the promised Messiah.
The promise is completed in the finished work of Christ. Now when all of the gentiles, that is, all of the Jews and non Jews, that are cut off from God’s covenant in Christ. When all of the gentiles have come in, then Israel will be completed and saved. God told Jacob to change his name from Jacob to Israel. A lot of Hebrew names have different variations of meanings Israel means ‘To be a prince with God’ Israel also means ‘To rule with God.’ Israel also means, ‘To be ruled by God’ Therefore for a man to be part of Gods Israel, and to rule with God, the man must first be broken and ruled by God.
The Lion of the Tribe of Judah leads Israel, the complete Church of God. Now it says that each one of them was sealed. A “seal in the Bible speaks of ownership”. Many slaves had the name of their owner stamped on their forehead and or a ring bored by a hole in their ear lobe.. They were sealed, they were owned, and if someone owned you, they looked after you.
What about the number, 144,000? We are back to those 12’s again. 3×4 is 12, and 3 x 4 is 12, 12 x 12 is 144,? So we are back again to the 12 of the Old Testament, 12 of the New Testament, and 12 x 12 gives us 144, but then it is x10 x10 x10. Ten is the perfection of number – verses 9 and 10. You count 1-10, stop at 10 and begin at 1 again, so 10 is the perfection of number. This is also proving Gentile and Jews are the Israel of God period.
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
The 144,000 gives an idea, it does not speak of a number, and the idea is the perfect completed Church of the Old Testament and New Testament, the completed “”Israel of God” the holy nation of all believers since the promise to Abraham. Within this number of 144,000 all of Israel is saved.
Palisade – Bro Tom
Tom,
Best post I’ve read from you because I agree! 🙂
Notice that Dan is not listed in the list of 12 tribes.
Notice that as a Gentile – I’m grafted into the tree. There is not a tree for Hebrews and one for “Christians” – so that would support what you posted too.
Somebody put those phrases (one for each tribe) together and it tells the story of redemption as I recall.
One more thought – Romans 11 is a prophetic passage, yet to be fulfilled. I’m looking forward to that day, believing it is very soon.
Blessings
Psalm 34
DJ,
I was waiting for someone to mention the issue about Dan not being in the list of the twelve tribes, because this is also a part of this false teaching. You and others approach this just like all of the other things that you spiritualize which are meant to be literal, that is with flawed spiritual logic. Dan missing from the list does not infer that it is not literal Israel that is in view. This is the same type of erroneous thinking that others apply to the 144,000 not being a literal number and the thousand year reign of Christ not being literal. The point is:
Dan missing from the list does not equal not literal Isreal
The fact is that, God has not revealed why the tribe of Dan is missing from the list and is replace with Manesseh. But it is in error that anyone should assume that because Dan is not listed that literal Israel is not in view. What kind of thinking is that “Oh, Dan’s not there, then that must not be liter Israel!” That’s just nonsense! You people shouldn’t even be discussing the Scriptures with that kind of thinking. It is amazing that your whole premiss for this is that Dan is missing, but you ignore the detailed beakdown of 12,000 mentioned from each tribe, that John says, that those 12,000 are from the twelve tribes of Isreal and you ignore the fact that the number of 144,000 remains consistent in Rev.14:1,3.
You said:
“One more thought – Romans 11 is a prophetic passage, yet to be fulfilled. I’m looking forward to that day, believing it is very soon.”
The above regarding the two witnesses is not going to take place until that 1st seal is opened which begins that last seven years and ends with Christs return. These two men are going to literally testifying in the Streets of Jerusalem for 1260 days, which is that last 3 1/2 years. At the end of that 3 1/2 years, Scripture states that the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. Subsequently, the church will have already been removed from the earth prior to that event and that because it takes place well into the wrath of God.
I think the literal interpretation should be taken first…unless it makes no sense, then the spiritual interpretation can be applied.
ex: dragon in the sky….most likely symbolic
144,000 .. most likely literal
tree is Israel.
Tom,
My money is on the Pope as the False Prophet, leading the false church.
Look up the word Vatican. Break it down.
Just a guess. I don’t have any beast dollars (all seeing eye above the pyramid) placed at Cesar’s Palace sports book. 🙂
Blessings
Psalm 34
thank you Dj –
Marianne and Dmac – let me share the literal scriptures again. you might not have caught it.
Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev. 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
But you also got a great multitude, which no man could number. Of ALL nations, and kindreds and people and tongues. They are part of the Israel of God.
So the Bride of Christ down through the centuries from the resurrection. Is only going to be 144,000 Jews. According to your literal theory.
Rev. 21:12 And had a “””wall”””great and high, and had “”””twelve gates”””””, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the “””names of the “”””””twelve tribes”””””” of the children of Israel”””:
Rev. 21:14 And “””the wall”””” of the city had “”””twelve foundations””””, and in them the names of the “””””””twelve apostles of the Lamb””””””.
Wall and foundations – Wall O.T — Foundations — N.T = 12 TRIBES O.T and 12 APOSTLES of the N.T. === THE ISRAEL OF GOD .
Let’s remember the O.T tribes were shadows of things to come. And when Jesus came he laid the foundation for it all. And chose 12 Apostles. Jesus was the “”Chief corner stone”” but also Jesus was the “”Cap stone”” – finishing off the “Israel of God” by bringing in the gentiles and both became ONE body of Christ. And Paul called them the “Israel of God”.
TOM – hope this can help you understand it a bit better.
144,000 are the first fruits….which means there is more “fruit” to come 🙂
Hello Marianne,
You are correct, the 144,000 are the first fruits out of Israel and the other fruits will be the woman (Israel) who will have been cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years.
Tom Said:
“But you also got a great multitude, which no man could number. Of ALL nations, and kindred’s and people and tongues. They are part of the Israel of God.
Rebut:
You have two entirely different groups mentioned in Rev.7:
* Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
* After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb.
The first group are those 144,000 who are sealed from the twelve tribes of literal Israel.
The second group are those saints who will have come out of the great tribulation.
Scripture clearly demonstrates that the 144,000 and that great multitude which no one could count, are two different groups of people. The fact that Scripture gives the number of the first group and then describes the next group as a great number that no one could count shows that God is using precise numbers here, meaning that the 144,000 is not to be taken symbolically. Furthermore, they are not all part of the Israel of God! Only 144,000 are Israel. To claim that the other group is Israel is to go beyond the context of the Scripture. Your error is that you are arbitrarily assigning the other group as being Israel, when the Scripture does not support this. Also, the 144,000 is not spiritual representing the church. That being said, the church is not even mentioned nor is it in view here.
Tom said:
“So the Bride of Christ down through the centuries from the resurrection. Is only going to be 144,000 Jews. According to your literal theory.”
The bride of Christ is the church made up of all nations, races, tongues and peoples of which there are countless millions. These 144,000 in chapter 7 and 14 are specifically those who come out of literal Israel as those who will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah. These will be the first fruits to God out of the nation Israel.
Tom said:
“Rev. 21:12 And had a “””wall”””great and high, and had “”””twelve gates”””””, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the “””names of the “”””””twelve tribes”””””” of the children of Israel”””: ”
Rebut:
On the wall of the New Jerusalem will be the names of the twelve literal apostles of Christ and on the gates of pearl will be written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Though the 144,000 come out of Israel, their names are not the ones that are written on the gates, but it is the names of the twelve tribes, representing the nation Israel just as Scripture states. In Rev.4:2 we are introduced to twenty four elders; twelve of those elders represent Israel and the other twelve are represented by the church.
Tom said:
“Wall and foundations – Wall O.T — Foundations — N.T = 12 TRIBES O.T and 12 APOSTLES of the N.T. === THE ISRAEL OF GOD .
Rebut:
I’m not even sure of what you are trying say with the above. It appears to be more babble. The Israel of God is the literal nation of Israel and should not be applied to the church. Israel is Israel, the church is the church. They are two different groups.
Tom said:
“Let’s remember the O.T tribes were shadows of things to come. And when Jesus came he laid the foundation for it all. And chose 12 Apostles. Jesus was the “”Chief corner stone”” but also Jesus was the “”Cap stone”” – finishing off the “Israel of God” by bringing in the gentiles and both became ONE body of Christ. And Paul called them the “Israel of God”.”
Rebut:
Yes, but not all Israel received Christ as their Messiah did they? As previously stated, the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, but there is also the nation Israel who did not receive Christ as their Messiah and that is who God is going to be dealing with in the last days. Those Jews who are apart of the church are not the nation Israel, but parts of the body of Christ, just as the Gentiles are. It is the unbelieving Israel as a nation, that God is going to deal with. This Israel are those who did not receive Christ as Messiah and still consider themselves as being under the Law of Moses. After God removes his church, then he will take up where he left off and finish that last seven year period which will involve the nation Israel and the rest of the world.
Marianne that is a good riddle but its not quiet the truth . Who was the 1st person that had Christ in them. ?
“Dmca” simple questions for you. what is your answer on the below post here . I will repeat a couple. “example”” of the Father and his 3 children not giving up their faith in Jesus and getting their heads cut off by Islam a few weeks ago. Question — Who had the “Mark of God” and who had the “Mark of the beast”.
If you do not have a “born again Creation in you” – do you have the “Mark of the beast” or the “Mark of God” – right at the very time you were asked.
Do you believe Man kinds attributes would be that likened to “a Dog” without the Holy Spirit living in them?
tom
christ had chirst in him….
So did Adam, Abraham and Moses etc etc.
tom
you asked who the first person was 🙂
Tom’s Question:
“Dmca” simple questions for you. what is your answer on the below post here . I will repeat a couple. “example”” of the Father and his 3 children not giving up their faith in Jesus and getting their heads cut off by Islam a few weeks ago. Question — Who had the “Mark of God” and who had the “Mark of the beast.”
My answer:
Neither of them had the mark of the beast nor the mark of God. If they endured persecution and death for Christs sake, then they had the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and the word of God was in them. But, they did not have the mark of God, because that term is not used for those who are in Christ. It is a made up term. Neither did those who were doing the persecuting have the mark of the beast and that because the mark of the beast is an actual, future, sub dermal device that will go on the right hand of forehead and will be used to allowor the inhabitants of the earth to be able to buy and sell. The mark of the beast has yet to be officially revealed and won’t be until that antichist comes.
All you are doing is the same thing that you always do Tom and that is the spiritualizing of Scripture and misapplying terms and phrases where it is convenient to support your interpretation of Scripture.
Tom said:
“If you do not have a “born again Creation in you” – do you have the “Mark of the beast” or the “Mark of God” – right at the very time you were asked.”
Rebut:
My life revolves around the Father and Christ. From the time I wake up until the time I go to sleep, I am meditating on God and his word. Whether I am driving in my car, sitting on my couch, in the shower, at work, on the toilet, I am thinking upon God and and his word. I also continue in prayer multiple times a day and night. But, I do not have the mark of God and that because it is a term that was made up by you or those who taught you. The Spirit of God dwells in me and the word of God remains in me, but that is not to be referred to as the mark of God. Neither is that term found in Scripture as referring to believers. Neither do I have the mark of the beast and that because, as I said earlier, the mark is an actual device that will be revealed in the near future that will be put on the right hand of forehead and its purpose will be to allow the individual to access his/her bank account to be able to perform crediting and debiting. Furthermore, neither do those who are currently unbelievers have the mark of the beast and that for the reasons already stated.
The term “Mark of the Beast” is not assigned to anyone that is not in Christ. In other words, a person who is currently an unbeliever does not have the mark of the beast. It will be a literal, future device (brand, tattoo, etching, impress) that will go on/in the right hand or the forehead of each person which will allow access to an individuals bank account for the purpose of buying and selling (crediting and debiting).
Here’s an example:
We are currently using cash, checks, credit and debit as valid forms for financial transactions. If the government suddenly said, as of such and such date, Cash and checks will no longer be valid forms of payment, only the debit and credit cards will be valid. Well then, that would mean that each person would have to have a debit or credit card in order to be able to make purchases, pay thier bills or perform any other type of financial transaction. Well, let’s take that one step furher. Currently we are using cash, checks, credit and debit as valid forms of making purchases. When that antichrist comes, I believe he will make cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete, leaving that mark, his mark, as the only valid means of crediting and debiting ones bank account.
The revealing of the mark will be like the proverbial line being draw in the sand. It will absolutely separate and identify those who are for Chirst and those who are not, and that because those saints during that time will know that it is the mark of the beast and not just technology and they will also know what the consequences are for those who receive it.
Believe what the word of God says and stop spiritulizing everything!
there are 2 examples of a “mark” used y god in the OT
one was the mark put on cain to protect him from being killed by others
the other was in Ezech 9:6
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
it does not mention a mark of God in the NT, just a mark of the beast
Morning Marianne,
yes, I agree with you. And I have been contending with Tom that, the mark of the beast did not exist throughout history, as it is something that is specific for the near future and is related directly to the technology of today regarding the worlds monetary system. Furthermore, the term “mark of the beast” is not a figurative term meaning that anyone who is against God has the mark of the beast. The mark will be literal and will go in/on the literal right hand or forehead and without it no will be able to buy or sell, just as Scripture proclaims.
I am so grateful there are others here who can keep track of all this stuff because many of you are on a whole other level than I dare to tread. Who’s going where and when. I feel like I have some “big brothers” (and sisters) looking out for many of us in deciphering so much of what the bible is trying to communicate. It reminds me of a section in the bible that was recently sent to me:
1 Corinthians 1:18-21
(18) For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
(19) For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
(20) Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
(21) For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
New King James Version
They further said,
“We need a voice – a preacher, a true minister of God – to make the message clear. By nature, our desires are likely to run amok. We think we know what we want, but we do not always know what we need. A minister’s function within the church is to lead us from what we want to what we need.”
Sometimes I feel lost between the pages, and that is when I retreat into meditation with our Lord. Though the mind may not understand, the heart always will. You are all so dear to me in that you take so much time to share and explain to your best ability. That in itself is the greatest of love.
Denise
Hello Denise,
You seem to have such a loving spirit. In regards to your reference to our need for preachers, pastors, I would only add, be like the bereans who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching them was the truth. And we should be doing the same. I don’t expect people to just believe what I am proclaiming, but to check it out for themselves, which is why I always provide Scripture along with my posts. The word of God says the following:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of Goda may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim.3:16)
Therefore, when I see the word of God being distorted and circumvented, then as one in Christ, I teach, correct and rebuke, just as I have been doing here. The problem is that, many false teachers have come into the world and more are coming all the time. We need to be studying the word of God in order to be able to know who is false and who has the Spirit. As I have said before, the proper way to read Scripture is “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.”
The problem today is that, there are people who are not reading Scripture and taking it at face value, but assigning a symbolic or spiritual meaning to Scripture that is meant to be taken in the literal sense. When they do this, they change the entire meaning of what God meant to convey and distort his word.
Continue to read and pray, even when you don’t feel like it. For God knows what is on your heart before you pray. If someone teaches something that is not according to what God’s word says, then cast it out as false.
Thank you, dmcal – I was not raised with the bible, so in many ways I feel like I am doing “catch up” on scripture. And, yet, I know in my heart God has me exactly where He wants me to be in understanding. Our family did not go to church much, when we did it was usually a holiday, and we went because “we should” or because “it was nice to do so.”
We went to a church around Easter this one time when I was about 7 and the minister was about to give the sacrament and he went on about the death of Jesus and saying, “This is His body, and this is His blood” and I was so confused. I began to cry. I was quickly “shushed” until we got home and my Mom then asked me what I was so upset about. I told her that the minister kept saying that Jesus was dead. I told her, “Jesus isn’t dead, He is very much alive. He lives.” Of course my Mom did her best to explain things to me when she realized I was in some place she never had been. Though I hadn’t been to church much and rarely cracked open a bible, I have had a relationship with Jesus from as far back as I can remember.
A small pocket bible was part of my utility equipment that I took with me when I worked as a police officer. Though I didn’t have time to read it much on duty, I knew it would protect me more than my bullet proof vest would. When I was a training officer I would tell recruits, going into a “hot” call, to leave all the books in their head behind. The only two things they are really bringing with them are their faith and their family. The two things they will want to return to. During parts of my patrol shifts when it was quiet, especially the night shift, I would park in a church parking lot and do my paper work or just rest. As much as I might have been protecting the church, I knew it was He who was protecting me.
After 17 years of service, when I was injured on duty, I went on to law school. Every body thought I would make a good attorney, but I didn’t want to do my arguing in court rooms. I needed to take the fight to the streets so I worked suicide hotlines, food lines, and various charities, even worked law cases behind the scenes, most of the time for free.
My journey with God has been a very personal one. As much as I would like to know, understand, and be able to quote scripture, it is like the big lesson for me has been to get my head out of the way and listen to my heart. That is where He abides. And so I continue to do His work as He directs.
Denise
Mark against Mark – Post 1-14-15
Marianne and all— now we are really getting technical – smiling
Most all denominational teachings are the same on the “mark of the beast.” – They cannot tell you the truth either because they do not know the truth of it. . If they did know the truth it would through their theories plum out into outer space. It would mess up their 3/1/2 years and Post – Mid – After etc. It would shake them to their core. This subject is a very, very important doctrine.
Like most of you think I’m nuts. I had to go through my Bible college on my knee’s not my head. We have to empty ourselves out completely to hear the Voice of God in the church’s.
Jesus says if you want to be “Sealed or Marked” as all people are. Then He will send you the Holy Spirit. To guide you. So when you “receive Jesus Spirit. into your soul, mind and body. You become free from the “mark of a servant slave to satan”. Into a servant slave to Jesus Christ and He is the Word. Not just a nice felling doctrine
Paul calls that a SEALING. John calls it a “Sealed people” that satan could not conquer in Rev. 7 and more. Now you are owned by the Lord and He runs all your affairs. And does your thinking for you. But we have to turn it over to Him.
Before you was sealed with the Holy Ghost – Who’s Spirit was ruling your heart, mind, and soul before Christ. = It was Satan that had you bound by sin and trespasses. On your way to hell.
BUT it was Jesus Christ that “lifted you up” from that “Seal or the Mark of death”. The love letters of Gods Bible that He sent to His Bride are Sealed Words of mystery. The Marked of satan cannot break into the Mystery of it. It is sealed off to the Worlds thinking and understanding.
The Bible says you have to be “Borned again into another Family”. Then HE “Opened up your Seal or Mark of Heaven – and you received Him as your Lord. No more the “World lording over you” in satan’s disguise and wickedness and influence. We changed completely from one slave master to another called Jesus Christ. “Servant means slave”.
James 1:13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14. But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. = That is your human spirit and flesh man.
15. Then when “”lust hath conceived””, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth DEATH. = a seal , mark with death etc.
A. conceived is like having “Birth Pains” . – In this case it births pains of death and agony. And you hurt, and are pained, and lust and have not because you ask not. Confused in your sin and do not ever recognize it is because you birthed it into your life. A “Mark of the lust and love of the world has you sealed in. And you cannot get out. Unless you know the antidote to getting a Brand New Life – Sealed in Christ.
16 † Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 † Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 † Of “”his own will”” begat he us with the “”word of truth””,= sealed in – that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Begat was our Spiritual birth by the Word of truth. Taking our death penalty away forever.
19 † ¶ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 † For the “”wrath of man””=satan’s seal – worketh not the righteousness of God.= 2 seeds only – who brings the wrath of God on you – Wrath is a Mark of death, Or seal that satan puts on his servants. So that you cannot “HEAR what the Spirit says unto you”
21 † Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
“”Jesus said come unto me why will you Perish””. There are only 2 seeds, 2 marks, 2 ways, 2 seals, 2 worlds, either sin or faith, – Once you get past puberty . You have to make choice’s. God is a long suffering God of Love and would not want any to die or perish. Yet He knows good from bad and is very patient. Only God knows when your time comes to go. When your time comes to believe. Or when your time comes to reject him. He is Alpha and Omega. This in the “Importance” of knowing if you are SEALED =born again of Character and soul and body. Or Sealed in by Satans Character soul and body. The Most important doctrine in this world. And the Heavenly world.
Dmca- You only mentioned half of what the Mark of Beast is.
PS. If you would all look at the book of Revelation with the right perspective in your mind and soul. You could understand it very Easily.
The Book of Revelation is the “Revealing of the Mysteries Of Jesus Christ in His Glory and Triumph in all phases of conquering Satan’s governments, false prophets, and evil schemes against all of humanity. As Judge, Head of the church, Jesus was the kinsmen redeemer that HAD to come, Jesus conquering death by giving of Himself to atone for our sins. Satan is the author of death, Hell and the Grave. = His mark is that of the Beast – Mark of Death – Mark of sin -Mark of humanity that is without salvation.
John the Divine did not write this book in a few weeks. He got more than one Vision. Revelations has at least 6 visions in it. Of Christ overcoming satans bride. Remember that is what satan wants to do.
Become god himself. He marks all his children with the Mark of his attitude, Character, Image, disposition, unbelief, yea he itched his way in on your Character and and turned your innocence into lust, and you started loving the world till you will not even retain God in your thinking. Then you are gone and will perish with a reprobate mind. Rom 1.
Don’t let satan put a ring in your ear. Look up the meaning of “ring in the ear”. Every 7 years the trumpet blew and if you was a slave you had to be let go from all your debts etc. and you could stay with the master of choice. If you did not like them you could go free. But if you like them. They bored a hole in your ear and put a “Sealed Ring” into it. That was their “Mark”of owner ship forever and ever. . Yea its Spiritual. Just like the little children of that day. Were marked with a mark between their eyes by their teachers. Oh it’s all in the bible.
Every church age in Rev. 2 and 3 says – hear what the spirit saith unto you the Church.
Did not say lets hear what the Nico-latians intellectuals say. And it did not say hear what Balaam the mixer of the world and Christ says. Or popular Scholars say.
Last but not least – It did not say hear what the Multitudes say. Oh that last one is the real killer. Ask Jesus if that was a problem in His day.
But you have to judge what everyman says if it is Spiritual or carnal. Remember Satan’s “”spirit has a SEAT” in those church ages. All of them. Especially in today’s church.
Bro. Tom
I can see a seal as a mark
Forgive me Tom, but why is it that nothing you say makes any sense?
You go on and on with self-made phrases and the mixing of all kinds of different Scriptures and there is never any point to your posts. Can you stick with one subject with clarity and stop jumping all over the place?
Tom said:
“Most all denominational teachings are the same on the “mark of the beast.” – They cannot tell you the truth either because they do not know the truth of it.”
Rebut:
Tom, I am not concerned about the teachings of denominations and that because they are not where I get my information from. The source of all truth is found in the word of God. That is where everyone should be looking for the truth. When anyone teaches something, we should be like Berean’s and search the Scriptures to see if what was taught is the truth. As for me, I do not know everything there is to know regarding the word of God, but what God has revealed to me, I proclaim and I do know the truth about those things, which is what I have been teaching and contending for with you.
Tom said:
“We have to empty ourselves out completely to hear the Voice of God in the church’s.”
Rebut:
This does not mean abandoning the word of God and allowing men to teach you what they believe. What they are teaching should be followed up with what the word of God says. If what they say is not supported by Scripture, then we must throw it out as false. Our trust should not be in men, but in the word of God.
Tom said:
“Paul calls that a SEALING. John calls it a “Sealed people” that Satan could not conquer in Rev. 7”
Rebut:
As I have tried to make you understand, those “Sealed people” are a specific group, which come out of literal Israel and are the first fruits to God, 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. The number 144,000 is not symbolic representing an unknown number, they are not the church or any other group. They are exactly who Scriptures says they are:
“Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.”
I am not going to comment on the rest of what you wrote and that because it is just a collection of continuous babble that doesn’t address anything specific. My advise to you, is to unlearn what you have been taught and read the word of God as though it was for the first time, believing what is written opposed to what others have taught you.
Praise God Marianne – Thank you- Bro tom
Sorry you fell that way Dmcal – Its only confusion to you because you do not want to believe it. You are very happy believing the status quo of the denominations. Cannot you and others – Understand – that Jesus Himself was crying out to all the people – common and Sanhedrin – And they mostly died in the Judgment of 70 AD. Why do you want to kill all my thoughts that are in line with the Word and also in line with John the Baptist and all the Apostles.
As like Ive always I’ve said to you and others on this forum. When you have a “complete revelation” of the “mystery” of God —-IT ALL DOVE TAILS together. Meaning the puzzle has been completed and when you look at it. Every piece in its right place. All the pieces of the puzzle are right beside each other. Its so easy to just start talking about one piece that fits the other piece so on and so.
That is the way Jesus taught. A piece at a time. Then when His ministry was through. The Apostles had received the Holy Spirit and by Jesus coming to them in the 40 days HE was also ministering to His disciples.
What did Jesus have to do to Peter to go to Cornelius house so they could receive the Holy Spirit as the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost. Peter was STILL not understanding the “puzzle” that the Jew and Gentile was the N.T church. Hello, Hello – He finally got the Message. Peter could not empty himself out of all the traditions either it was really hard for him to understand it. Cannot you see you have to let the Spirit do a work in you and understand how to receive the truth. Most read and go with the majority and study that for years and years and you become the “OLD WINE SKINS” and do not even know it. Paul was the REAL MESSENGER to the N.T Church but he had to count all he had learned under great scholared men of the O.T. and Call it dung. Yet the O.T had Christ all the way though it. But they missed it completely. Its Jesus Christ Spirit that wants to “guide you into all Truth’ . But your flesh mind cannot receive it. Tell the Lord to empty your mind out and start over. Every believer has to go through it unless you were privileged enough to have a Teacher sent from God to teach you with the signs following.
Lord Bless you Dmac. Im not against you but I am for you. Whether you know it or not.
Bro. Tom
Tom said:
“Why do you want to kill all my thoughts that are in line with the Word and also in line with John the Baptist and all the Apostles.”
Rebut:
That’s just it Tom, your thoughts and posts are not in line with the Word of God and what the apostles taught, which is why I continue to contend for the truth and rebuke you for your posts. I want to kill your thoughts, as you say, because I want you and others to know that they are false teachings. And as I said before, my claims come from my studies in the word of God alone and not from the “status quo of denominations” which I don’t even belong to.
Tom said:
“As like I’ve always I’ve said to you and others on this forum. When you have a “complete revelation” of the “mystery” of God —-IT ALL DOVE TAILS together. Meaning the puzzle has been completed and when you look at it.
Rebut:
Again, the problem is that, none of the pieces of the puzzle that you have presented fit together and that because you spiritualize what is meant to be taken literally. When you do this you completely change the meaning of what God meant to convey.
Tom said:
“What did Jesus have to do to Peter to go to Cornelius house so they could receive the Holy Spirit as the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost. Peter was STILL not understanding the “puzzle” that the Jew and Gentile was the N.T church. Hello, Hello – He finally got the Message. Peter could not empty himself out of all the traditions either it was really hard for him to understand it.
Rebut:
This is exactly why we have the word of God, we have everything that the people of God went through at our finger tips. To use your example, Peter didn’t understand that the same salvation had come to the Gentiles until it was revealed to him and they also received the same Holy Spirit. But those of us who have the word of God don’t have to go through that understanding by trial, because we can read about and not make the same mistake. In the same way after the covenant was revealed, there were people who were still clinging to the first covenant, the Law of Moses, but we have multiple letters that declare that we are no longer under the law, but under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ. Therefore, since we have all of this information regarding the law vs. grace, we don’t have to make the same mistakes. Unfortunately, even though we have this information, people still put themselves under the law one way or another instead of trusting in Christ who met the righteous requirements of the law and paid the price for sin in full.
Tom said:
Cannot you see you have to let the Spirit do a work in you and understand how to receive the truth. Most read and go with the majority and study that for years and years and you become the “OLD WINE SKINS” and do not even know it.
Rebut:
Tom, you assume that because I don’t agree with what you are proclaiming that I don’t have the Spirit working in me. But the fact is that, everything that I have been contending and rebuking you about is because of the Spirit who dwells in me and has taught me through my study of the word of God. You don’t recognize the truth because you cling to the false teachings of men, which you erroneously believe to be the truth. If you would just believe the plain print of what you are reading, instead of spiritualizing it, you would know the truth, because God’s word is right there in black and white.
Tom said:
Tell the Lord to empty your mind out and start over. Every believer has to go through it unless you were privileged enough to have a Teacher sent from God to teach you with the signs following.”
Rebut:
Why in the world would I want to abandon the truth for what you or anyone else is believing? Here is a simple test, tell me what the following verse says:
“According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”
When you respond to the above, please don’t create a mile long letter with all kinds of unrelated verses mixed together with invented phrases and terms. But just focus specifically on the Scripture above and tell me your interpretation of it. Let’s see if you can specifically do this one thing. I’ll be waiting for your response.
Tom,
And by the way, regarding your reference to “OLD WINE SKINS”, Jesus spoke this regarding the old covenant vs. new covenant.
“no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the new wine will burst the skins; the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined.”
This parable is comparing those who are trying to mix the new covenant with the old by keeping the law of Moses, which will destroy the person who does so and that because those under Law of Moses attempt to earn salvation by their own works. Yet, under the new covenant, we are saved by grace through faith and this not by our own efforts, it is the gift of God and not by works. Pour new wine into new wine skins. Therefore, your comparison does not fit with me and that because I am not, nor have I ever been under the law whatsoever, but I am free in Christ. However, we ought to use that freedom to glorify God and not to live according to the sinful nature.
Yes dear Brother – I am aware of that. And that’s why I put it in their. I adhere to the N.T New Wine and that is what I drink. But the shadow of the O.T is how you understand the Book of Revelation with all its symbols. Hope you enjoy my new post on the Mark against the Mark. Hope you read it slowly. It should help you. My prayers are with all of you.
tom
Marianne – I can’t find your post here, but I had an e-mail that you had contacted John 777, and he is suffering severe back pain. You posted: “May he find solace and relieve in his pain.”
I am in agreement with you. My doc sent me back to physical therapy for my low back. I know back pain all too well. If you speak to John, in person or an e-mail, ask him if he has tried a sacroiliac belt. I know the pain goes down his leg. It is excruciating. The SI belt has helped me some.
Blessings to him
Denise
ok
This teaching is spaced making it look longer than it is.
Marks defined Rev.13:16 – Rev. 7:3
“MARK defined below” Strongs gr. 1986 Edition
#5480 which means a ““stamp as a badge”” of “servitude“”. And is relative to #5482- & #5481 – graver,- “”engraving character“”, an “”exact copy“”-or “”representation”” -“express Image“.
Also it bottom’s out to the word – “Palisade” all is explained below.
Rev. 7:3 – Seal – Meaning below
Defined Strongs Gr.# 4972 – 4973 – 5424 – 5420 – All are relatives to complete SEAL meaning
#5482 to set a seal upon, MARK with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to “mark” a person or a thing; hence to set a “mark” upon by the “impress of a seal” or a “stamp“: angels are said to be sealed by God
#4973 -authenticated, as by a seal (a “TOKEN” or proof)
#5424 – understanding (2)
1) the midriff or diaphragm, the parts of the heart
2) the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging
#5420- to fence in, block up, stop up, close up; to put to silence
#5482 charax from charasso (to sharpen to a point,
AV — trench (1)
1) a pale or stake, a palisade
2) a palisade or rampart (i.e. pales between which earth, stones, trees, and timbers are heaped and packed together
1. If you study the word “Palisade” it will ultimately come to being a “Fortress“. God is our fortress. As in the old days when they built a log fence and put a trench in front of it. The logs were honed into points to keep the enemy out of your fortress. And many a fortress was built on a hill= rampart.
1. God hones His Bride. By the Word of God.
#1 Rev. 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads.
1. We talking about the “”Beastly mark” in their “right hand“, or in “their foreheads“
2. The beast Mark is to the world of non-believers.
#2 Rev. 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have “SEALED” the SERVANTS of our God in their FOREHEADS.
1. Its very clear in this scripture. We have TWO different sets of “Marks”. One of the beast and one of God Rev. 13:16 & Rev. 7:3. Lost and Chosen
2. It says in Rev. 7:3 hurt not earth, sea, nor the trees. TILL we have SEALED the SERVANTS of GOD in the FOREHEADS. Why cause Judgment was getting ready to fall. The Lords servants will not be judged with wrath as the Beast will be.
3. This group is of the REDEEMED. While the Beastly Mark is of the CONDEMNED
Now the Old Testament scriptures
Eze. 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and ”set a MARK” upon the “foreheads of the men”” that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
“MARK” in Eze. 9:4 Means = A MARK, sign, flag, beacon, token, evidence, consent,
So now we also know what the mark means in the O.T. Which it mentions it all the time.
1. Now that you know what the Mark means in both the O.T and N.T. you will have a lot to study if you are really serious about the truth of it all.
Notice – 2 different kinds of men of Israel – believers and non-believers – 1 group -The ones that sigh and cry for the abominations done In Jerusalem. #1 -Eze. 9:6 “”but come not near any man upon whom is the MARK;” Read the verse in its whole text below
#2- Those that do the “abominations in the midst of Israel“.
Eze. 9:1 ¶ He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that “”have charge”” over the city to draw near, even every man with his “”destroying weapon in his hand“”.
a. It would behoove you to look up the words for Destroying, Weapon, and Hand. I’m not going to take the time to do it all here. It goes with the end of the age, the right hand of power is metaphorical) (figurative) – then runs into Cain’s line of inventions which produce a Babylon . Run all the Heb. Numbers on each word if you are serious about truth.
Eze. 9:5 ¶ “”And to the others”” he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze. 9:6 – Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: “”BUT come not near any man upon whom is the MARK;” and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
1 Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18. And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Now as we can see from Rev. 7 and Rev. 20 that there is also “2 Kinds of Sealing’s. Seal – means ownership- and also means a “finished work”. Gr. # 4973 and 2856. It means “close up for security” – preservation – MARK of genuineness- and last but not least it means “stamp Impressed”. Stamp is also the meaning of “Mark” as in Gr #5480 . So with this said: Eph. 4:30 “and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are MARKED OR SEALED unto the day of redemption. Either word would fit it.
Exo. 13: 9 And it shall be for a “SIGN” unto thee upon “thine hand“, and for a “”memorial between thine eyes“”=forehead, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exo. 13:16 And it shall be for a “TOKEN” upon thine HAND, and for “frontlets between thine eyes“:=forehead for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.
Remember Sign , and Token comes from the word Mark. All the same -remember Sealed means a Token – and or Mark – in N.T
Exodus 12:13 – And the BLOOD shall be to you for a “TOKEN” upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
a. Again we have the word for Token – 226 relative from 225 in the sense of appearing;
1) sign, signal) a distinguishing mark – banner
remembrance- miraculous sign- omen
2) token, ensign, standard, miracle, proof
1. In NT and OT – the “badge of servitude” is when the Blood is applied to your life. Not some chip.
For dmac and all – 3 and 4 thousand years ago. They had no computers, high tech chips, but they did have the “Mark of the beast” and “Mark of God“. Its proven its not technology and or not by intellectual inventions of mankind. Proving the Mark of the Beast and Mark of God was alive and well. You are a sinner or a Saint. In this world NOW
One more to go
Matt. 23:33 “ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell ?
Now the “MARK” that was upon CAIN who was of the wicked one. Serpent seed. Is also #226 and #225.
He was the father- a genius and could build cities for his world powers. His line invented Music, iron making, evil inventions, he was ruler, a slave owner, and it was his line that started having more than ONE wife.
1 Jh. 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that “”wicked one,”” and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. -Abel – One Marked by the blood and Cain -One Marked by a murderer.
13. Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
14. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
Abel was a saint, Cain was a devil – Both of them Marked. Or Sealed off when they would not heed the Word that God sent them. Or they did receive the Word that was sent them.
N.T – Mark, Seal, ““stamp as a badge”” of “servitude“”- graver,- “”engraving character“”, an “”exact copy“”-or“”representation”” -“express Image“.
O.T – A MARK, sign, flag, beacon, token, evidence, consent,
1. All the above is for the Righteous and Non-Righteous. You can plainly tell by the Character, servitude, exact comp – who they represent or express the Image of their Owner. Jesus or Satan
CLOSING COMMENTS OF THIS DOCTRINE
St. John 8: 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
That’s the way of a true Prophet – you will be hated and called a devil in this generation as in Christ generation of vipers.
And I am not calling people on this forum vipers. Only Jesus knows who they are. We are called to love one another but if we love we have to tell you the truth or we do not love you.
Palisade – bro. Tom
Ok, for Tom and everyone who has been following this debate, I’m going to address each subject from Tom’s post individually in successive posts, so that it won’t be confusing and hard to keep track of, as is Tom’s.
===============================================
Tom said:
Marks defined Rev.13:16 – Rev. 7:3
“MARK defined below” Strongs gr. 1986 Edition
#5480 which means a ““stamp as a badge”” of “servitude“”. And is relative to #5482- & #5481 – graver,- “”engraving character“”, an “”exact copy“”-or “”representation”” -“express Image“.
Also it bottom’s out to the word – “Palisade” all is explained below.
Rev. 7:3 – Seal – Meaning below
Defined Strongs Gr.# 4972 – 4973 – 5424 – 5420 – All are relatives to complete SEAL meaning
#5482 to set a seal upon, MARK with a seal, to seal
1a) for security: from Satan
1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
1c) in order to “mark” a person or a thing; hence to set a “mark” upon by the “impress of a seal” or a “stamp“: angels are said to be sealed by God
#4973 -authenticated, as by a seal (a “TOKEN” or proof)
#5424 – understanding (2)
1) the midriff or diaphragm, the parts of the heart
2) the mind; the faculty of perceiving and judging
#5420- to fence in, block up, stop up, close up; to put to silence
#5482 charax from charasso (to sharpen to a point,
=================================================
Rebut:
What Tom has done here is give the definition of two different Greek words, the one found in Rev.7:3 where the 144,000 are being sealed is the Greek(sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, “a seal”). And the word “charagma (properly, an engraving (etching, sculpture, a stamp, sign). Then Tom magically made both words mean the same, a mark is a seal and a seal is a mark, so that wherever they find the word seal or mark in Scripture, they can be used them interchangeably. Then what he does, is he uses the following scripture as an example:
“and grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are MARKED OR SEALED unto the day of redemption. Either word would fit it.”
The Scripture above uses the same word “sphragizó” as in the “sealing” of the 144,000. The meaning of our being sealed with the Holy Spirit is that once we received Christ, the Holy Spirit took up residency in each individual believer. Since this has nothing to do with a literal mark, but the indwelling of the Spirit and since Tom has magically made both words interchangeable, he can now make his claim that, since the seal of the Holy Spirit is not a literal seal/mark, then neither is the mark of the beast a literal mark, but is spiritual.
The problem with this logic is that, Tom and others ignore the context regarding the mark of the beast and erroneously applies the meaning of the word “Seal” from another Scripture. In this case, being sealed by the Holy Spirit is spiritual, ergo, the mark of the beast is also Spiritual. Amillennialist make this same error with several other Scriptures such as with the following:
“for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.”
(Ps.50:10)
It is obvious from the Scripture above that, the meaning of owning “cattle on a thousand hills” is figurative meaning that God owns all the cattle and all animals and everything else in creation. That being said, the amillennialist then takes the figurative meaning of “a thousand hills” from PS.50:10 and then they apply the figurative meaning to Rev.20:1 which says:
“And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”
After they erroneously apply this meaning, the thousand years of Satan’s binding in the Scripture above no longer means a literal thousand years, but just as with the “Cattle on a thousand hills” is a figurative meaning a large, unknown amount and so it is with Satan being bound. Just as with the error of ignoring the context regarding the mark of the beast, they do the same thing with Satan being bound for a thousand years.
When reading Scripture, we must consider the context above all else. For we cannot just apply an interpretation or formula from one Scripture to another. Once you make the first error, then a multitude of errors will follow.
(Continued on the next post)
(Continue from Tom York’s post)
Tom said:
“Exo. 13: 9 And it shall be for a “SIGN” unto thee upon “thine hand“, and for a “”memorial between thine eyes“”=forehead, that the LORD’S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
Exo. 13:16 And it shall be for a “TOKEN” upon thine HAND, and for “frontlets between thine eyes“:=forehead for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.
==================================================
Rebut:
These two Scriptures above are where the Jews came up with Phylacteries which are defined as:
“small black leather boxes containing scrolls of parchment inscribed with verses from the Torah, which were/are worn on the left arm or forehead by observant Jews during weekday morning prayers.”
These Phylacteries had to do with a literal box with verses from the Torah inside being worn on the arm or the forehead for the Jews as a “sign” and “remembrance” that God brought them out of Egypt. And therefore, these Phylacteries that were for a “SIGN” unto thee upon “thine hand“, and for a “”memorial between thine eyes“”=forehead, were literal prayer boxes worn on the arm or on the forehead and were not referring to something spiritual and unseen. Jesus mentions these Phylacteries when rebuking the religious leaders:
“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long”
Looking at the Scripture regarding the mark of the beast, the context states the following:
* The Mark is initiated by the false prophet
* He forces all inhabitants to receive it
* It will go in the right hand or the forehead
* Without the mark, no one will be able to buy or sell.
* The mark of the beast is the name of the beast or the number of his name
Looking at the context alone, there is nothing in the Scripture that would lead one to interpret the mark as being a spiritual mark, especially when it states that the mark will go literally in the right hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell.
The Amillennialist and seveth day adventists, etc., interpret the mark of the beast as Sunday worship, with the forehead symbolically meaning “acceptance” and the right hand meaning “Service.” According to them, for one to observe the Sabbath on Sunday is to receive the mark of the beast. Yet, the word Sabbath is not even mentioned anywhere in the book of Revelation. Neither is keeping the Sabbath on Saturday even mentioned in the new testament as a requirement to obtain salvation. Furthermore, the keeping of the Sabbath on Saturday nor anything regarding the Sabbath is mentioned in the letters to the seven churches with their commendations and their rebukes. If the keeping of the Sabbath on Sunday was eternal life threatening, you would think that it would be listed within the letters to the churches or found somewhere, anywhere, within the new testament and the book of Revelation. Yet, there is not one peep about the Sabbath in regards to the severity of keeping it on the wrong day.
Also, you’d think that if Salvation was based on what day a person observes the Sabbath on, that Paul would have mentioned it. But what does he say regarding salvation?
“If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Regarding the above, you’d think that if observing the Sabbath on Sunday was an eternal life killer, that Paul would have made that known somewhere in his letters. Yet, there is not one Scripture that specifically says, do not observe the Sabbath on Sunday.
The mark of the beast will be a literal mark that will go on/in the right hand or forehead. Anyone who does not receive the mark will not be able to buy or sell. That is, they will not be able to perform crediting or debiting to their bank accounts and that because, just as with the debit card, they will have no way to access their bank account without it. The way in which the false prophet will force them to receive it will be by making cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete, leaving only that mark.
(Continued from Tom’s post)
Tom said:
“For dmac and all – 3 and 4 thousand years ago. They had no computers, high tech chips, but they did have the “Mark of the beast” and “Mark of God“. Its proven its not technology and or not by intellectual inventions of mankind. Proving the Mark of the Beast and Mark of God was alive and well.”
The mark of the beast is a future, literal mark that will go into the literal right hand or forehead. It is true that God did seal those of Jerusalem. Whether it was a visible seal or only one that God could see, Scripture doesn’t state. However, there is nothing mentioned in the OT of the mark of the beast. The mark is future and that because it will be controlled via computer for the purpose of crediting and debiting ones bank account. All you are doing is spiritually applying the phrase “mark of the beast” by pure conjecture.
(Continued)
Tom said:
“Now the “MARK” that was upon CAIN who was of the wicked one. Serpent seed. Is also #226 and #225.
He was the father- a genius and could build cities for his world powers. His line invented Music, iron making, evil inventions, he was ruler, a slave owner, and it was his line that started having more than ONE wife.”
The seal that God put upon Cain was specific to Cain as a sign to those who would want to kill him. It had nothing to do with the mark of the beast. You are just erroneously applying the mark wherever you see fit. The mark of the beast is unprecedented and is still future.
(last one)
Tom said:
“St. John 8: 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
That’s the way of a true Prophet – you will be hated and called a devil in this generation as in Christ generation of vipers.
And I am not calling people on this forum vipers. Only Jesus knows who they are. We are called to love one another but if we love we have to tell you the truth or we do not love you.
==================================================
Rebut:
True tom, but Scripture also states there would be false teachers and false teachings in the last days and that they would abandon the truth and turn aside to myths, which is exactly what you have been teaching here and which is why I have been contending and rebuking. As I have been saying from the beginning, you are teaching false teachings and that because you spiritualize everything instead of taking God at his word. And this has happened because you have listened to false teachers and have adopted their teachings. You say that everything in Mt.24 and most of Revelation has already taken place and that because you spiritualize the Scriptures and thereby removing their actual meaning. You say that there not going to be a literal resurrection of the dead and a catching away of the living. Yet, Jesus told all believers to be watching for his appearing and our being gathered to him. Unless you unlearn what you have learned and repent, you will find yourself experiencing all the events that are written in Revelation.
I just have to pray for you dmcal – when a man is so stubborn and anti against the simple word of God. You and God need to take it up. I’m making it as easy as possible for others to understand. Its God in simplicity that always confuses the scholars which always goes down to the common people in every Nation.
I gave you the meaning of the what the word “Mark and Seal” means. It all lines up Perfectly in NT and OT. And we know that just by the Character, Image, Conversation, Attitude, your “badge of character” and “servitude” will always tell on you. It is so simple a baby ought to be able to understand it.
TOKEN means the “Price is payed”& ownership – Christ already gave us the Token. Its the Holy Spirit. That “Token allows the believer to become ” the “Image likened” unto the Very “Character” of Jesus Christ.
THE SIGN or MARK is your spiritual – Jesus resurrection brought to us “The Kingdom of God on earth and gave back man his “inheritance to rule” with all authority again as did the “first Adam before he fail.
We are Kings and Priest of the most High God. The Mark, and Sign and Token shows it perfectly we are a peculiar NATION of Priest. We cannot be hid from the world. Be are the – flag waving, sign, and mark and character of Jesus Christ.
Yet the Kingdom’s of this World also has a Sign or Mark of ruler ship – can be seen by the man that possesses a evil spirit, that’s likened unto the World. His Love of the world show’s like a Beacon, A sign, and Mark, A badge of servitude. A seal of no return that only Gods knows of. Oh my the love waving their flag over all others as well.
Adam was a “BEACON” till he fell. But the 2nd. Adam is the “Eternal Beacon” and light of the world. And has never failed ever. And we are His little lamp or beacon that lives in us.
SEAL- means ownership – sealed in – your are secure when Jesus “bought us back from the “pawn shop” of the fallen worldly life which is a fleshly life.
BADGE OF SERVITUDE – Shows you live a GODLY life that can be SEEN by the World. Along with the Image, Character, standing out among the World to see. Its our EVIDENCE that Christ has our CONSENT.
REPRESENTATION- What does your life represent. Jesus or satan.
YOUR “STAMP” is your “Outer mark” as well as all the above. Our minds and heart is our conscience . It has been transformed. We translated -stamped” from a carnal mind into the Spiritual Mind of Christ.
When a human goes from death unto Life – Its all the above period. At the New beginning of life you have all the “POTENTIAL” to have victory in any case scenario for the rest of your life. Cause you are Sealed in to the day of Redemption. Jesus will Never leave you nor forsake the true seed of God.
Every second of the whole day- 2 people die each second. 24 hours a day and week etc. That is their resurrection. They were either going to Heaven or Hell. Where do you think that this great man you waiting on is going to come. Your anti-christ is everywhere in every Nation as I speak. And it was Cain that was the originator of building great cities that turned into Nation’s. Where do you think Nimrod got his education on how to build a great Empire to RULE over it as well as Egypt , Babylon, Mede and Persians, Greece with all its knowledge, then Rome – Daniel and book of Revelations call these Nations Beasts and lets not forget the “Clay Nation” of the Pope. Which is the worst beast of all of them. Mixing together pagan worldly love with Christ love. And all the other frauds that Rule over with religion in every country.
He’s already come and you and millions like you in the church cannot recognize it. You will be waiting till you have your resurrection as well. And I’m not saying that it cannot be worldwide. I think it will be. But just look at the past 2,000 years Where is all the people at that died and were lost and those that were Believers. After you die ‘if a sinner’ then that is your Judgment. Its over for you. If you die as a Christian your judgement is set as well. Cause it’s ALL about your LIFE WHILE LIVING ON EARTH. And its Heaven for Eternity or death hell and the grave. All the above Marks, Signs, Evidence, Holiness, Sealed, etc etc. Has already been judged. God was living IN YOU so you do not have to wait till some final resurrection. Your final resurrection is the day you die. YES Spiritually you can die while living. If Christ is living IN YOU. He is the Judge of all things. Rev. 1. Why would HE say – well now you died so wait and I will come back and get you. When He was already living IN YOU> that’s crazy thinking.
Do you know that every President, Ruler, and Monarch, or King or Furor that has ever ruled over their Nation’s is the greatest influence on all the people that are under his command. Plain and simple. That ruler is either a Christian or a Pagan sinner of some kind. You CANNOT have a NATION without a DOCTRINE to live by.
Daniel called them as “The BEAST singular and is ruling over all his servants. With His doctrines of devils. He is either a Beast in Heart or a Lamb in Heart. = Pagan or Christian. – The head of all of “”Gods Kingdom”” is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The other is the “great fiery dragon” which is Death, Hell, and the grave.
Israel IN O.T. was the only Theocracy. But it was just a “SHADOW” of what Jesus bought us. He bought us a “Kingdom that cannot be destroyed” and the wicked will not live in it. Or an unbeliever, or a liar, or those that fornicate. etc. etc.
The greatest sad part of all this. Is that you and millions that believe like you. Will never see what you think you are going to see in the future.
If you cannot see it in the Past , or Present. You will miss it in the future. As they did Jesus and all the Prophets before Him. Jesus Came down to his disciples and followers on the Day of Pentecost and after. NOW tell me How many seem it. How many did Jesus Christ reveal while walking the earth for 40 days. Tell me how many. A very little flock to say the least. All the rest of the Whole world did not see His coming or Crucifixion, or even know that a man rose from the dead. Only the Little flock that Loved Him more than anything else. Jesus said about Elijah coming. They did not know that was John the Baptist. Jesus said they missed him. WHY – oh he was suppose to come and do great miracles, and challenge the gainsayers. Instead he came and rebuked all of Israel. But I know that when most of you go to church they are talking about everything but what the word says really happened. The church has become just a club of believers.
Israel had their great tribulation. Most pagan countries the people are like slaves. And America is not going to escape either. Our own president cannot even say – Islam is a terrorist nation. He has a Black limo called the BEAST. So guess who is ruling America right now. Yea its NO BRAINIER –
Who is ruling all of Europe right now. Its a NO BRAINIER again. They dont was Jesus in their countries no more. What else is left for them but Judgment.
Who is ruling Islam, Russia, China, and all of the Asian countries. They all have put Jesus out of their Nation’s. When any Nation puts Jesus out of it. Its a Anti-christ Nation from satans hell. This is what we are seeing this very minute.
And the Church is still waiting for the Beast to come yet. Because you have been hypnotized by some 7 year tribulation or 31/2 etc. And still say a great ruler is to rise. You gonna be waiting a long time dear brother and sister. The world is falling apart now. Anti-christ is already set up in our world. What’s it take to make you believe this. You looking at the moon, stars, sun and earth quakes, weather conditions, outer space. High tech surveillance to “create a chip” that make’s you into an unbeliever, you will not be able to buy and sell. Jesus said:
Matt. 16:3 O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Matt. 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Jesus just got through saying the church of His day. Is just like the Church of our day in 2,015. In Jesus day they pretty near wiped out all of the real Christians and Apostles as in Nero’s day. Their destruction came and went before they could do anything about it. It was judgment time.
Rev. 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. = no in between.
REVELATION 22:12- And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Most all of the Church today believe this is for the Rapture or Coming of Christ.
Yet it was written in Johns day to that people first that did not know Christ. The meaning to that is He is coming quickly – IN JUDGEMENT – NOT GRACE.
Jesus had already offered “His Grace” for 3 -1/2 years and another 37 years until 66 – 70 AD. When Judgment was falling on Jerusalem for their whoredoms. John’s writting’s were a prophecy of ‘Coming Judgment’ of that generation. Jerusalem finally ran out of time for mercy. The Scripture above is Christ calling out for the last believers to come in before Jerusalem’s destruction. Jesus had given them time. But now he says you had better “Come quickly” if you want to be saved and not destroyed.
And its the same message IN OUR DAY.
Jerusalem was The Harlot, of that day. When you reject Christ in this day its the same thing. Your time is Always. You had better listen to the Words of the Holy Spirit which is Jesus Christ talking to you . Get prepared its going to happen at a time you think not. When Jerusalem was completely destroyed. That was their Judgment for not believing His Word.
Even with all the signs. And that is what the church’s today all talk about . Signs, Signs of His coming. More signs, More evidence of anti-christ coming. Its crazy to me. Icabod is alive and well in whoredoms of today.
And Im not talking about people of this forum at all. I’m talking to the whole church world that are still looking into the heavens, and stars for a sign when they will be NO Sign. Except that of Jonah.
Now you are going to think that about today aren’t we. But understand and know that we have already had our Jonah of this generation. The Modern Church today of America. Has been blasting it out since 1906 Revival started. Grace, grace, and more grace. But Judgment now has to come. This great modern intellectual church today is the ” whore ” in the sight of our Lord. Just like Israel was.
LAST NOTE: The “latter rain” called the teacher reign. Is for Gentiles and Believing Jews “uniting again” as in the first century. Its already happening and could be over as I speak.
tom
Tom said:
“I just have to pray for you dmcal – when a man is so stubborn and anti against the simple word of God. You and God need to take it up. I’m making it as easy as possible for others to understand. Its God in simplicity that always confuses the scholars which always goes down to the common people in every Nation.”
Rebut:
Tom, if your claim of me being stubborn equals resisting false teachings, then you are correct. I have no desire to change from the truth of God’s word to believe your spiritualized teachings. You talk about the simplicity of the word of God, but what you are teaching is anything but simple, as it is not even recognizable when compared with Scripture. Your interpretation does not match what the Scripture states and that is the problem. I presented an example to you in a previous post, but you did not respond. So, I am going to list the Scipture here again and will follow up with my interpretation of that Scripture. My purpose for this is to demonstrate to you and others that your interpretation will not match the following Scriptures:
==================================================
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. ” (I Cor.15:51-52)
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ” (I Thes.4:16-17)
==================================================
My interpretation regarding the above:
* At an imminent, future time, the Lord is going to descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God.
* At that time, those who have already died in Christ, their bodies will rise from the grave as glorified bodies and will be reunited with their souls/spirits
* After the dead have been resurrected, believers who are still alive at that time will be immediately changed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrection to meet them in the clouds where the entire group meets the Lord in the air.
* Regarding this event, according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will then take us back to the Father’s house, that where Jesus is we may be also.
===============================================
As you can see, my interpretation is in agreement with the Scriptures above. Can you say the same? Now, please enlighten us the simpliicity of God’s word on this post with your interpetatioin of the same Scriptures above. And if you’re confident enough to do so, then please keep it short, restricting your reply to only the above prophecy in order to avoid writing another book. Thank you!
Man! I just forced myself to read through all that you posted and you are more messed up than I thought. You don’t even pay attention to Scripture!
Regarding the resurrection and catching away, you said:
“Every second of the whole day- 2 people die each second. 24 hours a day and week etc. That is their resurrection. They were either going to Heaven or Hell. ”
Yet, the Scripture states that, when the Lord descends from heaven, all of those in their graves will rise in their glorified bodies and we who are still alive will be changed into our gloriified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. I paraphased it, but that is the gist of the Scripture. I see that you completely ignore the context of the Scripture.
Though it is true that the spirit of antichirst has already been at work in the world, there is an actual man coming as the antichrist and with him will be his false prophet. During this time, the wrath of God will be poured out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Thess judgments are also listed in order in the book of Revelation, which are yet to take place. That time prophesied of by the prophets know as “the day of the Lord” is quickly approaching, which will decimate the population of the earth and will dismantle all human governments. Then sometime after that 7th bowl judgment has been poured out, Jesus will return and we with him and will end the age and set up his thousand year kingdom on this present earth. At the onset of the millennium, Satan will be bound in the Abyss during Christ’s reign during that thousand years and there will be a thousand years of peace without the temptations and deceptions from Satan and his angels. At the end of the thousand years, Satan will then be thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown a thousand years earlier where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
After the thousand years have ended, then the lost dead will also resurrected and will stand before God at his great white throne and the books will be opened and they will be judgmed according to their sins. Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Then God will create a new heaven and a new earth and a new Jerusalem will descend from heaven.
This is all according to Scripture Tom.
Why?
As you can see, your interpretation is in agreement with the Scriptures.
Why even try to offer any alternative, which would be in agreement with the Scriptures?
“Hello, I must be going.”
Blessings
Because the alternative doesn’t agree with Scripture and that is what I am trying to demonstrate. Your alternative ignores the context of the Scripture completely for the flase teachings of men.
I know that you don’t agree with the literal interpretation of Scripture, which is what I have been proclaiming, but do yourself a favor, just keep your eyes open for the following events:
* a seven year covenant being made with Israel and Islam.
* The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem
* The reinstitution of animal sacrifices
* The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments
* The setting up of the abomination in the Holy Place within the temple
* The emergence of a literal mark in the right hand or forehead that will be required in order to be able to buy or sell.
* The display of all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders being performed by the false prophet.
These are just some of the things that are going to take place during that time. But my point is, when you see them literally taking place, then I hope that you will abandon your spiritualization of Scripture and repent, realizing that the word of God means exactly what it says. When you see this antichrist and the false prophet performing those miraculous signs and wonders, don’t be fooled by them. And when you see a literal mark ermerge that will go in the right hand or forehead for the purpose of buying and selling, then realize that the Scripture was speaking literally. I say this because Scripture states that the antichrist is going to appear first and then the Lord afterwards. Don’t be duped into believing that the antichrist is God, which is exactly what he will be proclaiming..
dmcal52,
Thanks. I appreciate the list you’ve given me. This is easy enough for me to follow and look for fulfillment. Simple – thank you.
There is nothing new on the list since I reviewed the works and studies of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye back in the 70s-80’s and again in 2010. Then, setting those aside.
Here is an alternative list –
A) Look for the Ark of the Covenant to be broth forth -probably associated with an earthquake. This would generate significant momentum, leading those responsible for Temple Mount and Temple rebuilding efforts to begin construction. Watch who shows up to get a very close look at the Ark. Notice what they do when they are standing close to the Ark.
B) Look for NYC to receive a nuclear event (bomb, missile), destroying the city by fire in one day. This would be Rev. 18:1-20.
C) Look for the revealing, disclosure of the son of perdition. It will be obvious.
D) Look for an event that will awaken every person who calls themselves a Christian (foolish or wise), causing panic. Yet, no rapture occurs become we don’t leave until the end (Matthew 24:29-31).
God bless you.
Hola,
Don, you would do well to listen to Tom a bit more, instead of taring him down. There are many mysteries that have not been revealed to you, Because you do not listen to His voice, which is the Holy Spirit. You trust your own reason, and the logic handed down to you by the traditions of man.
BUT please bear in mind, human intellect is of the flesh, and there are many scriptures that back this concept, and this faith in human reason is why Israel could not receive their Messiah. Many in the fundamentalist churches are making this same mistake. (1 Cor. chapters 1-4 for example)
Tom,
Those are some beautiful comments. I understand your rapture view now, and though there is an actual to come, The Heart must be readied and the flesh must die first if you are to partake in being transformed. We must be spiritually raptured before we can receive our spiritual bodies.
and no Marianne, I am not having a discussion with DJ, can’t figure out why he is afraid of me?
For those who care to know: Ravenhill said the following regarding the Spirit of Travail: “”We have to know the fellowship of his suffering, before we can know the power of his resurrection” I tried to tell DJ, this is the “Spirit of dru”, so that he does not have to use my name anymore. Until you understand travail, none of the revelation makes sense, and you are grasping at straws. Do your own research here. But only the Spirit can reveal the truth.
God Bless all.
David, AKA Dru
David,
If I were to believe in what Tom is believing in, I would be just as deceived as he is. It is typical when someone is speaking the truth of Scripture that those who are deceived will accuse them of speaking from their own human reasoning and not of the Spirit. I have done nothing but provide Scripture in every post to back up my claims and yet they continue to say that it is from my own reasoning. My interpretation matches the Scripture, where Tom’s is fantasy. When studying the Scriptures, you have to pay attention to the actual context in order to understand what is being said. In Tom’s case, as well as with others, he ignores the actual words in Scripture, opting for the teachings of men.
Furthermore, I am not tearing him down, but trying to make understand that what he is teaching is false and therefore eternal life threatening. Also, as long as he and you people continue with these false teachings, you are leading others astray. For someone to teach that the Lord is not coming for the church to gather them, is to go against what Christ taught. Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” and he is still building it. Once he has finished building it, then the dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living will be changed and caught up with them, just as the Scripture states. I’m not symbolizing or spiritualizing the words as Tom is, but am repeating exactly what the Scripture states. After that will come what the prophets prophesied of, that being the day of the Lord, the wrath of God, culminating in the return of Christ to the earth to end the age and begin his millennial kingdom. And that’s a literal thousand years, not a fantasy thousand years that becomes an unknowable amount of time that was borrowed from a figurative statement in Psalms and then applied in Revelation.
I continue to content with you, DJ, Tom and anyone else who are distorting the truth because all of you do the same thing by spiritualizing Scripture that is meant to be received literally. When you do this, you distort the true meaning of what God meant to convey. There were people who were doing the same thing during Paul’s time, that is, claiming that the resurrection had already taken place. He called their teachings “godless chatter” that would spread like gangrene and that those who did so had wandered away from the truth and had shipwrecked their faith. Well, the same is true today! Those who are claiming that the resurrection has already taken place or worse yet, that there is no resurrection fall under the same banner as those men, which leads to destruction.
Speaking of the resurrection, Tom stated that each person is resurrected at the time of death, which is ridiculous, because the Scripture in I Thes.4:16-17 makes it crystal clear that when the resurrection and catching away takes place, ALL who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until the time of his appearing will be resurrected as a group, that is, the entire church at the same time, not individually. Likewise, the Scripture states that immediately after the resurrection, those believers who are still alive, world wide, will all be changed and caught up with them. This is what the Scripture teaches. So you can rant about me not speaking by the Holy Spirit, but the fact is I have accurately repeated and conveyed what the Scriptures literally state. The only reason that you guys don’t believe is because you make it out to be a fairy tale, adding your own magical interpretations, while continuing to ignore the actual context and the related Scriptures.
Don,
Do You believe in Holy Spirit revelation? If not, why then did Paul pray that the Ephesian Church receive the Spirit of Wisdom and REVELATION (Eph. 1:17ff)? The two go hand in hand. What You are doing in essence is saying the Word of God is a dead codex as opposed to the living Word of God. The Pharisees and scribes in Jesus day knew the scripture of the day inside and out, much like you, but they were blind to the fact that all of scripture pointed to the living Christ that stood before them.
I made a point about the “Spirit Of Travail”. You and others here ignore all the scripture that points to this sign of his second coming. Read Micah 5:2-4 carefully. Notice verse two points to the first advent of Christ while verse three directs us to the second advent to come. How does this fit your theories? It dos not because you have missed this altogether and do not want to learn of something that does not fit your theory.
Then, also Daniel 9:27 Can say either Midst of the week as the KJV translates of for half the week as the ESV translates this verse. Both are correct linguistically, But interpretively, one states the abomination occurs in the midst of that final week, while the other states that the abomination is the entire first half of the week. This latter interpretation which is scripturally correct does not fit your understanding so you discard it. This interpretation is entirely in line with the Words of Paul, where the Man of Lawlessness reveals himself by declaring himself God, which must precede the rapture. (Read 2 thess 2 here) This is also in line with the abomination which was inflicted by Antiochus Epiphanes, where the abomination, him declaring himself God and defiling the temple began a 2300 day period of abomiantions. Even Matthew 24 places the abomination before the rapture events. But your framework has to explain this away. So which is the right way to interpret this verse? KJV, Or ESV? Again both are linguistically correct.
The following is an excerpt from Tozer to illustrate the point I am making to you here, and will close with that.
MAKE ROOM FOR MYSTERY
“Far better than the attempt to understand is the humility that admits its ignorance and waits quietly on God for His own light to appear in His own time. We will be better able to understand when we have accepted the humbling truth that there are many things in heaven and earth that we shall never be able to understand. It will be good for us to accept the universe and take our place in the mighty web of God’s creation, so perfectly known to Him, and so slightly known to even the wisest of men. ‘The meek will He guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach His way.’
To those who have (unintentionally) degraded their conception of God to the level of their human understanding it may appear frightening to admit that there are many things in Scriptures and more things about the Godhead that transcend the human intellect. But a few minutes on our knees looking into the face of Christ will teach us humility, a virtue whose healing qualities have been known by God’s elect from time out of mind.
Coleridge gave it as his considered belief that the profoundest sentence ever uttered by human lips was the spontaneous cry of the prophet Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones when asked by the Lord whether those bones could live: “And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.” Had Ezekiel answered yes or no he would have closed off his heart to the mighty mystery which confronted him and would have missed the luxury of wonder in the presence of the Majesty on high. For never forget that it is a privilege to wonder, to stand in delighted silence before the Supreme Mystery and whisper, “O Lord God, thou knowest!”
The pitiable attempt of churchmen to explain everything for the smiling unbeliever has had an effect exactly opposite to that which was intended. It has reduce worship to the level of the intellect and introduced the rationalistic spirit into the wonders of religion.
No one should be ashamed to admit that he does not know, and no Christian should fear the effect of such a confession in the realm of things spiritual. Indeed the very power of the cross lies in the fact that it is the wisdom of God and not the wisdom of man. The day we manage to explain everything spiritual will be the day that we have (for ourselves) destroyed everything divine.”
A.W. Tozer, The Root of the Righteous, Pp. 78-80)
That the word of God is living and active, does not mean that the meaning of Scripture changes. According to what you believe, there is no way to classify someone as a false teacher. A false teaching would be ignoring what the Scripture actually says for some other meaning and that without any basis or support from the context.
What if someone else interprets Scripture completely different from what you are teaching and which also does not agree with the literal written word? What if ten, twenty or fifty people come with a completely different teaching from yours and different from each other?, Are they all acceptable interpretations because the word of God is living and active? No! There has to be a solid foundation to Scripture so that we can have faith in those words and not be moved from them.
According to your view of things, the way in which we are saved could be given another interpretation. In fact, we already have false teachers attacking salvation and the Lord’s resurrection. Scriptue is clear that we are saved by having faith in the sacrifice that the Lord made for us with his own blood. Yet, we have people coming in with the same attitude as you saying that, Jesus did not rise bodily, but was spiritually resurrected, not realizing that faith in the the bodily resurrection of Christ is necessary for salvation. His bodilly resurrection was/is proof of his being the Son of God (Rom.1:4) and it is a guarantee that all true believers will be resurrected bodily just as he was (I Cor.15:22-23). And the same goes for the rest of Scripture.
Now all that being said, I’ll use the same example of the resurrection and catching away to show the danger of what Tom and others are teaching. The Scripture in I thes.4:16-18, is a promise from the Lord, and we know that it is a direct promise from the Lord because the I Thes.4:15 says, “According to the Lord’s own word.” You see how that works? I can trust that this was directly spoken from the Lord and that because it is written plainly in his word. And because Scripture says so, I can go teach someone that this Scripture is according to the Lord’s own word and then I prove it by showing them the verse. you see how that works? I can proclaim something to someone else and that because it is written in God’s word. And I can do this will all Scripture.
Now, getting back to yours, Tom’s and DJ’s interpretations, you cannot claim the same thing that I just did and that because your interpretation is not backed up by Scripture and so you have to convince people that your interpretation is right, instead of mearly pointing to the Scripture to back it up. All that being said, I will now apply my example in a continuinging post, so that people don’t get discouraged from the length:
(Continued)
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
In a previous post Tom stated, according to his spiritual interpreation, that there is no resurrection, but that each person is resurrected at the time of death, that is, there is no coming event where all beleivers dead and living are resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord at the same time.
So, in order for me to be a good Berean and to know whether or not what Tom is teaching is the truth, I need to go consult the word of God. So, I read the above Scripture and I see that it says, “The dead in Christ will rise first.” I check the word translated “Dead” and I see that it is in the plural, which would infer all of the dead in Christ will be rising as a group at the same time. Then the Scripture says that, after the dead have been resurrected, believers who are still alive will be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. Therefore, the idea behind the Scripture is that, at the time that the Lord decends from heaven, he will resurrect all who have died in him from the onset of the church and then immediately following that, those who are still alive will be changed in a moment (I Cor.15:51-52) and caught up with the those who will have just previously been resurrected.
Now that I have checked the Scripture, I now know that Tom’s teaching is false and that because his claim does not match up with what the word of God says. Yet, according to the Lord’s own word, we are to be encouraging/comforting each other as believers with this future hope of being resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Now, the resurrection cannot be both according to Tom’s view and Scriptures view, because they are completely different. The word of God is there for my own knowledge of God and the comfort of knowing that God’s word means what it says. If something in Scripture is an obvious parable or symbolism, then I will go and find out what the literal meaning behind those symbols are. Otherwise, if the literal sense makes good sense, then I will not seek after any other sense.
The gist of the post is, as long as Tom’s or anyone elses teaching does not match what Scripture states regarding any given subject, then it is a false and my trust is in the word of God, not in the teaching of men.
Don said: “That the word of God is living and active, does not mean that the meaning of Scripture changes.” Revelation does not change the meaning of scripture, but rather deepens our understanding of it. When we are set in our ways our Hubris does not allow us to change OUR interpretation even if it is wrong.
I also never denied the bodily resurrection, and neither does Tom. But we do receive heavenly bodies, not earthly ones; Paul clearly states this. This is what I believe Tom is referring to, when he says earthly and Spiritual bodies. Both have physical and spiritual elements to them Just as Christ’s glorified body does, But one has a different Glory.
35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. 39 For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are HEAVENLY BODIES and EARTHLY BODIES, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
And:
flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. (1 Cor 15)
How do you explain this? “There are heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies” Was Paul in error also, because he does not fit your view of the rapture?, Or is your faith placed in the things of the flesh, therefore you desire to keep your earthly body? Think about this, I am not presenting this to you to lead you away from the sound doctrines you are taught, but rather to show you your understanding is incomplete. All of our understanding is incomplete. Even Paul Stated that “we know in part, but then we shall know fully”. Tom knows in part, I know in Part, DJ knows in part. The sooner you admit this and say “Lord thou knowest” the sooner you can receive the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
This is truly a blessing when you understand your weaknesses.
RE: Abomination? Again I did not equate Daniel 9:27 with Antiochus, I compared the two. Somehow, you read that I equated them. My Point was about the one being a “type” of the end times Abomiantion, which unlike DJ I do not think has happened yet. My point was that the Abomiantion IS equal to the covenant (with many, or with Death as Isaiah calls it) Thus according to Mathew 24, and 2 Thess. 2 this event MUST occur before the rapture. But in order for the rapture to occur for those who are alive in Christ, Must put to death the flesh in them, and be led by the Spirit. “For those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God.”
The Holy Spirit NEVER contradicts the word of God, But he does contradict the interpretations of Man, and corrects them, using scripture as I have done here.
Re: The rest of your comments you can address towards A.W. Tozer as he is the one that wrote all of that, not me.
In Your defensiveness above to what you perceived as my “attack” on you, you made three errors of interpretation of what I said in my comment. And you expect everyone to agree with your interpretation of scripture? How many errors have you made in those studies.
My Intent was to lead you to pray that prayer in Ephesians 1:17ff, so that you may deepen your understanding of Scripture, not that you may fall victim to false teaching. God IS speaking now to his sheep, and they hear his voice, and know his voice. His voice is the Holy Spirit, and he is a wonderful teacher, but you must be humble enough to allow him to teach you. There are mysteries in scripture which are being revealed even now, which you are missing out on because you do not trust in “God with us”. Instead, you have placed your mind as the only way to understanding….This is a form of idolatry when you see it this way.
Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.
Teach me to do your will,
for you are my God!
Let your good Spirit lead me
on level ground!
God Bless
You said:
“flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.”
Rebut:
The flesh and blood body that cannot inherit the kingdom of God, is this one that we currently in that has the sinful nature and decays. However, the flesh and bone body that we will aquire, will never decay and will not have the sinful nature. Paul mentioned the differences between our current bodies and the ones that we will inherit:
“So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”
Current body: perishable, that is, decays
Glorified body: Is imperishable, that is, it will not decay
Current body: Sown in dishonor, has the sinful nature
Glorified body: a glorified body, that is, no sinful nature
Current body: sown in weakness, that is, limited physical, mental abilities.
Glorified body: Raised in power, that is, heavenly abilities beyond this current body.
Now, when it says that it is raised a “Spiritual body” that does not inferring that it is incorporeal, for according to Scipture we have already seen that Jesus resurrected in the body that he was crucified and buried in. Also, he told his disciples that he had a body of flesh and bone. Therefore, the term spiritual body would infer that it is a tangible, corporeal body of flesh and bone, but has heavenly or spiritual characteristics.
You said:
“My point was that the Abomiantion IS equal to the covenant (with many, or with Death as Isaiah calls it) Thus according to Mathew 24, and 2 Thess. 2 this event MUST occur before the rapture.”
Rebut:
What brought you to the conclusion that the resurrection and catching away must take place after the setting up of the abomination? According to Dan.9:27, first the seven year covenant is made with the abomination being set up in the middle of it, that is, 3 1/2 years after the covenant is made, which causes the desolation. The desolation is recored in both Mt.24:15-21 and Rev.12:6,14, which means that by the time that the abomination has been set up the seals and trumpets, which are the wrath of God, will already have been in process. Since Scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath, believers must be removed from the earth via the resurrection and catching away before God’s wrath begins. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which make up the wrath of God, are specifically for those who will have continued to reject Jesus Christ and who continue to live according to the sinful nature. True believers will not go through any of God’s wrath and that because we have already received Christ who appeased God’s wrath on our behalf by by taking upon himself the wrath that we deserve. That being said, believers must be removed prior to the setting up of the abomination.
You said:
“My Intent was to lead you to pray that prayer in Ephesians 1:17ff, so that you may deepen your understanding of Scripture, not that you may fall victim to false teaching.
Rebut:
That is what you are not understanding. I pray daily and nightly for many things and one is thanksgiving for the wisom and understanding that he gives to me and that his word is living and active within me. The deeper understanding that you are speaking of to me are false teachings and I have no desire to adhere to them. These spiritual interpretation that you, Tom and DJ have introduced are plainly not supoorted by Scripture. If I was to believe in those those things, I would then fall victuim to false teachings.
You said:
God IS speaking now to his sheep, and they hear his voice, and know his voice. His voice is the Holy Spirit, and he is a wonderful teacher, but you must be humble enough to allow him to teach you.
Rebut:
This is exactly what I have been doing, learning from God’s word with his Spirit as my teacher, which is why reject and contend with you guys, and that because what you’re proclaiming does not match with the word of God. I have never claimed to know everything in the word of God, but what God has taught me, I do know and can teach and I will not be turned from those truths to unsupported, spiritual false teachings.
You said:
There are mysteries in scripture which are being revealed even now, which you are missing out on because you do not trust in “God with us”. Instead, you have placed your mind as the only way to understanding….This is a form of idolatry when you see it this way”
Rebut:
Drew, I am not missing out on anything. I continue to study Scripture and am always learning new information as well as having what I already know being reafirmed. I do not trust in “God with you” because of what I have been saying all along, that being, that you are always departing from the truth, distorting Scripture. I cannot believe in so-called spiritual interpretations when there is no Scriptural support for it, which is what you guys continue to demonstrate over and over again. Furthermore, I have not placed my mind as the only way to understanding, but I have placed my understanding and trust in the word of God and that is what I stand on. What you are teaching is foreign to Scripture. The only way that anyone could come to the same interpretations that you and Tom are claiming is by you teaching it to them from your own understanding.
Case in point, and this is just and example: Sometime ago, you made the claim that the 3rd seal/black horse, also represented “Spiritual famine,” Yet, there is notihing in the Scripture that would support that theory whatsoever. It was basically based on, because drew said so. There is absolutely nothing in that Scripture that would lead one to the conclusion of spiritual famine. It’s pure conjecture! Furthermore, the seals culminate in one fourth of the of the earths immediate population of that time being killed, that is, by war, famine, plagues and by the wild beasts of the earth. That being said, the purpose of those plagues are to kill and therefore, spiritual famine is not consistent with the other plagues of the seals and does not fit in. My problem with you guys is your departure from the truth, which you claim is a deeper understanding of God’s word. Scripture means what it says and as long as you continue to distort and circumvent it, I will continue to contend for the truth and accuracy of God’s word.
Don,
Re: Bodies. So do you now apologize for accusing me of not believing in the bodily resurrection of Jesus? Because I agree with Paul, that there are two different kinds of Bodies, an earthly body, and a heavenly body. You are rebutting the very word of God if you disagree with this.
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (Verse 37)
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (verse 40)
If you do not make this distinction, you are forever going to be asked those stupid questions, such as; “If we are beheaded, are we going to be like the headless horsemen?” Or “if we are burned on stake, will we have charred bodies? Heaven forbid we are cremated!
RE:What brought you to the conclusion that the resurrection and catching away must take place after the setting up of the abomination? I tried to explain that to you but you were busy defending your self to see.
1. Daniel 9:27 can be translated as either “midst of the week”, Or “half of the week”. Both are linguistically correct.
2. The Ordering of Jesus’ words in Matthew 24. You have seals and trumpets being discussed, and then the abomination discussion, and then the sixth seal and rapture. Now Mid tribbers use this as support for their position. Pre-tribbers have to explain this as “jump back” in Jesus discussion. I believe now in a pre-final week rapture.
3. 2 Thess. 2: Again the ordering states that the falling away, and the man of lawlessness declaring himself God, occur before the rapture.
The man of lawlessness declaring himself God is the abomination.
4. Travail: Birth pangs are the seals of revelation. Peter says “Judgment begins at the House of God.”(1 Peter 4:17) Those who are His beloved are being disciplined, and Purified as we speak. The bride is making herself ready. The Church is about to give birth.
Read the following verse:
Therefore he shall give them up until the time
when she who is in labor has given birth;
then the rest of his brothers shall return
to the people of Israel. Micah 5:3
The “them” of the first line is Israel, so the woman in question is the church. I Know this is true, not just from the word of God, and head knowledge, but from revelation and personal experience. Read this verse in context. Verse 2 talks of Jesus’ first advent, coming from Bethlehem. And verse 4 talks of his second coming, and his rule over “them”. In between we have travail of the woman/church
Mathew 24 states that the seals are the “beginning of the birth pangs” “But the end is not yet” It is after the abomination occurs that the church is removed, and Jesus begins his rule subjecting all authorities under him.
Travail is spoken of in Romans 8 as well:
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons[f] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
5. The precedent set by the abomination of Antiochus Epiphanes.
The abominable things occurred at the beginning of the 2300 days, and continued throughout that whole time. “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:27) Thus the abomianation is followed by a time of desolation…Half of the week.
6. The order of revelation, and the mentioning of saints therein.
Revelation is not a linear prophecy, but rather consists of numerous prophecies all of which end with the day of the Lord. Every time rapture/ harvest language is used is where these prophecies come into sync. You will find this in between the sixth and seventh seal, the sixth and seventh trumpet, the Woman giving birth, etc. In all of these prophecies, the endurance of the saints is called for, until a certain time in each of these prophetic streams. The Question is, who are these saints. Your view says these are the left behind Christians. But if you actually do a study on the saints, you will see that there is no way this is true. I will let you do that research yourself, but you can begin here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=saints&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1
This is one of the big mistakes of the protestant reformation. in opposing the catholic church, and its false practice of declaring sainthood on certain believers, based on their contributions, the protestents rejected all together the distinction between the saints, and the believers in Christ Jesus. Instead, they say all believers are saints. With the exception of the Anglican church, the distinction of saints was lost to these churches, and to you as well. Saints are called to endure. They are set apart. They suffer persecutions, imprisonment etc. When a believer is feeding on milk, they are not a saint. Paul makes this distinction in Eph1:1 “saints, and the faithful in Christ.”
RE: Milk vs meat: Spiritual Famine
3 But I, brothers,[a] could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? (1 Cor. 3:1-3)
About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. (Hebrews 5)
The saints are those who no longer need milk, are set apart, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, have crucified the flesh, are mature in Christ. They are not a bunch of Laodiceans spewed out by God. The saints are those in travail now, over the church in apostacy, the hardening of hearts of those members who are content to suckle on milk, those who cannot see that they are in a famine of hearing the voice of God.
“Behold, the days are coming,” declares the Lord God,
“when I will send a famine on the land—
not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water,
but of hearing the words of the Lord. Amos 8:11
What we have now are churches that are in the midst of this famine right now. They cannot see the times we are living in. They do not see the immanence of his coming. But those who are feeding on meat can see, and hear. If your hearing is dull, how will you hear the voice of the Lord as he calls you to come up here?
The fact that you are contending with these concepts proves that you are “still of the flesh”. Your defensiveness, denial, false accusation and interpretation, your strife with which you attack Tom, Dj, or any who dare to exhort you shows that lack being led by the Spirit.
Sound doctrine is only half of the picture. As much as I admire your defense of doctrine, You have closed your ears to hearing His voice. His voice can be heard from the holy Spirit within You, or via fellowship with Holy Spirit in others. But if you are jealously striving against them then you are living in the flesh. Paul planted the seed in Corinth, Appollus Watered that seed (The Holy Spirit is the water), and God grants the growth of the plant. The seed is the Gospel and sound doctrine. The Holy Spirit is the Water, God is the Growth. These three must be working together instead of contending with one another. Jesus said a seed must die before it can grow. Think about that for a while.
So, here in this rather lengthy comment, we have come full circle. Our flesh is the seed, when water is added, the seed dies, and a new plant is Born of the Spirit. This is the spiritual “rapture”. There is a time coming, when the dead in Christ will rise, and we will be transformed, taking the shape of the heavenly bodies. But if there is but a seed that has never been watered, this cannot take place. Most in the churches, want to partake in the promise of the resurrection without suffering the travail of the resurrection. They cannot see, nor can they her that He is at the very Gates of heaven ready to come and get His Bride, who has “made herself ready”.
When Israel heard the Voice of God they were frightened, and requested that they not hear that Voice. Thus Moses was granted the status of the voice of God, along with a succession of Prophet leaders. Eventually they stopped hearing the voice of God, and instead persecuted and killed those prophets that were sent to them.
The church was granted the Holy Spirit as a comforter, and the voice of God with us. Instead of hearing the Living Word of God, we worship a book with letters in it. (the bible becomes an idol devoid of Spiritual revelation) Tradition has passed down interpretation to us but we no longer interact and know the living God, but instead we know a lot of information and facts about God. Being a Christian is to be a follower of Christ. How is it that we can follow someone who does not speak? How can we know we are hungry for meat, if we have never been weaned off of Milk? Yes, Milk is essential for children of the faith (Doctrine, doctrine, doctrine). But eventually, we must learn to eat meat, and use our teeth. at first, this makes us choke if we do not chew it properly, but eventually we learn to crave that meat and desire to sup with our Lord Jesus.
19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. (Rev. 3:19-20)
Don, this is not all directed at you. I am not saying you are immature in Christ. But I am saying you are still thinking in terms of the flesh. Until you experience that “Spiritual rapture” within, You cannot fully grasp this. Tom Is an elder, He has been sent by Christ to reveal the voice of God to you and others here. You are criticizing what you do not understand, and are making a grievous mistake in doing so. Pride resists the voice of God, Fallow ground receives that voice, chews on it, and swallows it if it is pleasing to the pallet. What Tom has brought you is meat. It does not look the same as the milk you have been drinking. When he first came here, I resisted him too. But then the Lord led me to understand him, and what he is saying. I do not agree with everything he says, but I know for sure, he is of God, and not a false teacher. We all know in Part. when we fellowship together we learn even more. My being sent here, was for you this time. Thus far, I have been resisted, by M, Dj, GB. Time is running out for the bride to make herself ready. Chew on these words. do not just reject them because they are hard for you, and foreign to you. Other here have rejected them, because they fear them. They are afraid to lose their temporal security. They are afraid to be led by the Holy Spirit. They are afraid to submit to the will of God, because it means letting go of ones own desires, and their love is for the things of this world. Their riches, their power and authority, their pride of life. (1 John 2) Do not “fall back in fear” Instead receive the Spirit of adoption as a son of God, and cry out “Abba, Father”!
God bless. My final comment to you, unless a question is raised
David, AKA dru.
me
resistance can come when you make false conclusions about the souls of people you criticize.
(Continued)
You said:
“This is also in line with the abomination which was inflicted by Antiochus Epiphanes, where the abomination, him declaring himself God and defiling the temple began a 2300 day period of abomiantions. Even Matthew 24 places the abomination before the rapture events. But your framework has to explain this away.”
Rebut:
Obviously, the abomination that Daniel prophesied of cannot be regarding what Aniochus did and that because Jesus quoted Daniel and spoke of the abomination being set up in the future tense. Subequently, the event of Antichus took place 200 years or so before Christ quoted Daniel and therefore, the prophecy regarding the abomination could not have been fulfilled by him, that is, unless you want to apply some spiritual meaning to this as well. Furthermore, the Scripture does not place the abomination as taking place in the first half of the seven year period, but it is clear that it is set up in the middle of the seven.
i would agree here. Antiochus was a foreshadowing of a greater abomination to come.
You said:
“MAKE ROOM FOR MYSTERY
“Far better than the attempt to understand is the humility that admits its ignorance and waits quietly on God for His own light to appear in His own time. We will be better able to understand when we have accepted the humbling truth that there are many things in heaven and earth that we shall never be able to understand. It will be good for us to accept the universe and take our place in the mighty web of God’s creation, so perfectly known to Him, and so slightly known to even the wisest of men. ‘The meek will He guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach His way.’”
Rebut:
First of all, making room for mystery, does not mean that God’s word changes. Rob Bell said, Love wins! Tthere is no place of punishment, everyone goes to heaven. True, there are things that we don’t know of, but the information that God gave us contained in his word is unchanging, a solid foundation that we can trust in. With your point of view, the true believer could not perform the following:
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Teaching, correcting and rebuking is what I have been doing here and that based on Scripture, and that because there are those, you being one of them, who distort Scripture. As long as you continue to spiritualize what is meant to be literal, you do so to your own destruction. Changing the meaning of the word of God is no small matter. As far as I am concerned, you and others are in danger of direct violation of Rev.22:18-19 because, by your spiritual interpretation, you’re are taking away from the true meaning of the prophecy of that book and that because you change the meaning.
You said:
“Coleridge gave it as his considered belief that the profoundest sentence ever uttered by human lips was the spontaneous cry of the prophet Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones when asked by the Lord whether those bones could live: “And I answered, O Lord God, thou knowest.” Had Ezekiel answered yes or no he would have closed off his heart to the mighty mystery which confronted him and would have missed the luxury of wonder in the presence of the Majesty on high. For never forget that it is a privilege to wonder, to stand in delighted silence before the Supreme Mystery and whisper, “O Lord God, thou knowest!”
Rebut:
Regarding the above, you’re talking about a question that God was asking of Exekiel. But his word is not a mystery or a question, but is trustworthy and a solid foundation for having faith in, teaching, training, rebuking and correcting.
The word of God also states that the time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but will gather around themselves a large number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear and will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths. To apply that to today, those teachers would be websites, books, seminars and hearsay. That being said, I’ve noticed in your post so far that you have quoted two men, Tozer and Coleridge, the teachings of men as a means to prove your interpretations. I prefer the source of all truth, which is the word of God.
You said:
“The pitiable attempt of churchmen to explain everything for the smiling unbeliever has had an effect exactly opposite to that which was intended. It has reduce worship to the level of the intellect and introduced the rationalistic spirit into the wonders of religion.”
Rebut:
It is really sad that whenever anyone quotes Scripture literally, you and others claim personal intellect. I happen to believe what the literal word of God says and there nothing wrong with that.
You said:
“No one should be ashamed to admit that he does not know, and no Christian should fear the effect of such a confession in the realm of things spiritual.”
Rebut:
There are a number of things that I don’t know in Scripture and those things I do not quote on or will say, “I’m not positive about this, but this is what I believe.” on the other hand, the things that God has revealed to me, I will proclaim to all as the truth. But I am not going to admit to being wrong about about something that I am positive about.
Don,
One of the biggest problems in the churches are that so few shepherds are Spirit taught. Rob Bell is a heretic because he contradicts the Word of God, as you rightly point out. The Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God. We Worship God in Spirit and in Truth…..we have to have both or we are not worshipping God, because we are either worshipping a false Spirit, or a false teacher.
Regarding:
“One of the biggest problems in the churches are that so few shepherds are Spirit taught. Rob Bell is a heretic because he contradicts the Word of God, as you rightly point out. The Holy Spirit never contradicts the word of God. We Worship God in Spirit and in Truth…..we have to have both or we are not worshipping God, because we are either worshipping a false Spirit, or a false teacher.”
This is exactly why I mentioned Rob Bell as a comparison to what you guys are teaching. Maybe not the same things, but the same departure from the truth. And if you don’t believe that, I will bring up again Tom’s blatant disregard for Scripture regarding the resurrection and catching away found in I Thes.4:16-18. If that isn’t departure, then I don’t know what is. Scripture plainly states that there is going to be a judgment at the great white throne at end of the thousand year reign of Christ. What did Tom claim? He said there is no judgment and that each person is judged at the time of death, plainly going against what Scripture has to say about the matter. Again, it is not an issue with the topic per sey, but that spirit of departure from the truth of God’s word.
dmcal
I guess the root issue here is whether or not a scripture can have a literal meaning, as well as a spiritual meaning, as long as the two do not contradict each other. If so, then both apply. If not, then only one can apply
Hi Marianne,
Well, regarding your post above, everything that they have proclaimed is contradicting the word of God.
BTW,
The Women of revelation 17/18 is the church. The Harlot Catholic church, and all her daughters (Protestant churches). She, rides the Beast, Zero’s Babylon system, and the beast hates her, but is using her to maintain his power, till he no longer needs her.
Have you all noticed – “40” Nations represented in France – The Pope had “6” million people at his Mass today. This ought to tell us something. I hope see what I mean.
Palisade.
what does it mean?
40 is a Judgment number – 6 is man’s number. That’s all.
God bless bro. tom
to dmca
Tom, if your claim of me being stubborn equals resisting false teachings, then you are correct. I have no desire to change from the truth of God’s word to believe your spiritualized teachings. You talk about the simplicity of the word of God,
answer: then it will never happen for you to get a spiritual revelation then. You are still in un-belief. You are stiff necked, and bound in your traditions of man. You have listened to the “Sanhedrin of this present world” and are bound to it. They have stold your gold. That cause many to have a Iron will. Against any Revelation by the Spirit.
Dmac said
I have done nothing but provide Scripture in every post to back up my claims and yet they continue to say that it is from my own reasoning. My interpretation matches the Scripture, where Tom’s is fantasy.
Answer: – then why cannot you explain the Mark against Mark long letter I sent you. You did not even say a word about the Marks. Yet its literal as well. It can be understood just by the literal meanings. But what happened is that it tore your “Sanhedrin” teaching’s up. When It is so plain to see.
Dmac said
For someone to teach that the Lord is not coming for the church to gather them, is to go against what Christ taught. Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it” and he is still building it. Once he has finished building it, then the.
Answer: As I told you 2 people every second die. Every 24 hour period of everyday and every 365 days a year. Is a whole lot of people dear brother.It would be hard to even figure up the number that leave earth everyday. It would go into thousands and thousands of people everyday dying let alone a year.
Now what does the Scripture say –
2 Cor. 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight: -faith is a REVELATION
5:8 “”We are confident, I say, and willing rather “”to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.””
This is the N.T covenant of Jesus Christ – no more soul sleeping as many think. Christians are Not laying in the Grave waiting for Jesus to come and get them. They had Christ in them. HELLO – they have already Rose from the dead. I told you that its fairy tale of the CC that makes up a big white stone seat and got people waiting in a big line to get judged. The minute you die your judgment is sealed and opened by Jesus Christ. God knows every hair on your head. And we the Christians – have the MARK of “Representation” of our LORD.
PS I want to thank the Post that were sent in. In a positive way. It has helped me and energized me and I Praise God for every one of you. Swimming up stream and being different is a hard way. But I really believe its the right way. I did not just get up one day and say to myself. I think I will just be a thorn in the flesh to Christians. Jesus know’s all about the Hard way. Along with His followers that would not recant their LOVE. By the way Dmca – LOVE IS A SPIRIT – All the knowledge in the world cannot replace REAL GOD GIVEN LOVE AND THE TRUTH GO TOGETHER.
Bro. tom
Tom said:
“Answer: As I told you 2 people every second die. Every 24 hour period of everyday and every 365 days a year. Is a whole lot of people dear brother.It would be hard to even figure up the number that leave earth everyday. It would go into thousands and thousands of people everyday dying let alone a year.”
Rebut:
Tom, the number of people who die every day is irellevant, for it does not change the Scripture which states that the resurrection and catching away is a group event, which takes place when the Lord appears to gather his church and not individually at the time of death.
Tom said:
“Now what does the Scripture say –
2 Cor. 5: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight: -faith is a REVELATION
5:8 ”We are confident, I say, and willing rather “”to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.”
Rebut:
You are correct Tom, there is no soul sleep. What Paul is talking about here is what happens to a believers soul/spirit at the time of death. When the body dies, the soul/spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of Christ, while the body decays in the earth. When the Lord appears, he will bring with him the souls of those who died in hiim and their bodies will resurrect, being transformed into those glorified bodies and their souls/spirits will be reunited with those now resurrected bodies. So the resurrection has to do specifically with the body standing up again and the soul/spirit being reunited to that body. Jesus is our example in that, he rose in the same body that he was crucified and buried in. We shall all be resurrected bodily as well. Even the wicked dead who are judged at the end of the ltieral thousand years receive a resurrected body, but unfortunately one that will be in torment in the lake of fire.
From what you have posted, you have not understood that the resurrection has to do specifically with the body. The word “Anastasis” translated “Resurrection is defined as the following:
====================================================
“anástasis (from 303 /aná, “up, again” and 2476 /hístēmi, “to stand”) – literally, “stand up” (or “stand again”), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ’s physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis (“resurrection”) refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]”
==================================================
You on the other hand are under the impression that when a person dies they have already resurrected, yet, that can’t be because they are in spirit form in the presence of Chist and the resurrection has to do with the body. According to Scripture, when Christ appears, he will have brought with him the souls of those who died in him and will raise their bodies reuniting the two. There is a literal, bodily resurrection coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out— So, it is the body that will rise out of the grave and be united with the soul/spirit at the time of the resurrection. As I said in the previous post, Jesus is our example in that he rose in the same body that was buried in the Tomb. We also have other Scriptures that support his bodily resurrection such as the following:
=================================================
“While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
===============================================
In the Scripture above, the disciples were afraid because they thought that they had seen a spirit, but Jesus proves that it is him in the flesh by telling them to look at his hands and his feet, which was to draw attention to the nail marks demonstrating that he was in the same body that he was crucified in. Then to further support that he is in the same body that he was crucified and buried in, he tells them, “A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.” Ergo, Jesus was not a spirit, but was in his flesh and bone body, albeit, a glorfied body.
Tom said:
“I told you that its fairy tale of the CC that makes up a big white stone seat and got people waiting in a big line to get judged. The minute you die your judgment is sealed and opened by Jesus Christ. God knows every hair on your head. And we the Christians – have the MARK of “Representation” of our LORD. ”
Regarding what you said about the “big white stone seat and got people waiting in a big line to get judged.” Again, that big white stone seat or the great white throne judgment is Scriptural, as can be seen from the following:
“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.”
Regarding the above, this would be another good example of Scripture proclaming one thing and you denying it. For as you can clearly see for yourself, the Scripture states that at the end of the thousand years, those who were not apart of the first resurrection will be resurrected out at the end of the thousand years and will be judged at the great white throne. That being the case, should a person believe your teaching which denies the truth or what Scripture states above? If this is your spiritual interpretation, then it is just plainly comes down to ignoring the written word of God and I say, “No thank you!”
Tom said:
“PS I want to thank the Post that were sent in. In a positive way. It has helped me and energized me and I Praise God for every one of you. Swimming up stream and being different is a hard way. But I really believe its the right way. I did not just get up one day and say to myself. I think I will just be a thorn in the flesh to Christians.”
Tom, swimming up stream and being different doesn’t necessarily mean being right. The fact is that you learned all of these things from false teachers and that because I reconize the same teaching from others. The problem with what you are teaching is that it is in contradiction to the word of God, which is a very serious offense and that because it is God’s word and you are also misleading people by your teaching. And speaking of your being energized, it is too bad that you didn’t pay attention and take God at his word.
dmcal
when you “reply” to your own comment, tom may not get a copy of what you said.
Don,
The Holy Spirit is the seal of God.
“but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.” RE Locusts.
When the Holy Spirit teaches us, is when we are sealed by God.
i see room for both literal and spiritual interpretations here.
dmca said
the number of people who die every day is irrelevant, for it does not change the Scripture which states that the resurrection and catching away is a group event,
“anástasis (from 303 /aná, “up, again” and 2476 /hístēmi, “to stand”) – literally, “stand up” (or “stand again”), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ’s physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis (“resurrection”) refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]”
You on the other hand are under the impression that when a person dies they have already resurrected,
EASY ANSWER; Jh. 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
11:25 JESUS SAID unto her, “”I AM”” THE “”RESURRECTION”” , AND “”THE LIFE””; he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: —— I AM is a PRESENT TENSE –
11:26 – And WHOSOEVER LIVETH and BELIEVETH “” IN ME” shall NEVER DIE. Believest thou this? — do you believe this dmac — It’s just plain and means the same word you posted above about resurrection.
Dear brother dmcal – How many times have I mentioned if you a Christian you only die once. But the unbelieving will have to die the 2nd. death.
You “raised from death to life” that’s your rapture as well. And I can also say its your “quickening” –“translation” into the heavenlies — morphing into another Creation into a “New Dimension” .
All Jesus has to see after you die is your “Representation of the Mark of God”, or “Seal of God”. The “Token” , means the Price has been paid for your resurrection. :Your Flag of Character, and Image, and all the other things i mentioned to you. That you cannot explain I guess.
“””””We are “”already judged”” Innocent of sin and death”””””” By Faith in the Cross and Resurrection –
Our life is a “written Epistle from God. If we die – He already knows who you are. You will not have to lay in grave for 500 years to be with Christ.
After you die is the judgment – That is in the present tense right then. Your life is your Mark of God or Mark of Death. Hope you see it before you die. You are a good man and striving to understand. Like all of us have to do. If we are serious about our Soul. Fellowship is a great blessing. We come together to share our revelation. Paul said it to the Corinthians . I want to say like Paul I have fought a good fight and I have kept the faith.
Bro. tom
this debate is getting too involved.
try shorter comments.
the resurrection of the dead is not the rapture….rapture involves people who are still alive.
if we are born again, we have the mark of god on us.
I think dmcal would agree with that.
Exactly right Marianne – We were dead in trespasses and sin. Till Christ came and brought us our freedom from Death, Hell and the Grave. Yes we who are “alive” have to be Re- created while living in our “fallen temple of death while in this world”. That is resurrection of the living. The “Old Tom became a NEW Tom by the Resurrection of the I AM Jesus the resurrection. The Apostles had their complete resurrection on the day of Pentecost when the “I AM” come into their Temple to take it over. They then Got their Token, Mark of God, Image, Sign, Beacons “lights to the world, cause their Engraving Character was that of Jesus Christ IN THEM. Completed birth.
God bless – bro. tom
Hi Marianne,
You are correct, the resurrection is not the catching away. According to Scripture, the definition is as follows:
Resurrection: The bodies of those who have died in Christ rising from the earth as gloified bodies to meet the Lord in the air.
Catching away: Living believers being changed into their glorified bodies and being caught up, which is the Greek (Harpazo) which is defined as, to seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively force suddenly exercised.
The only difference between the two is that there will be believers who are still alive when the Lord appears and so those who are living will just be changed on the spot into those glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have just been resurrected. The resurrection of the dead and the catching away of the living will happen within moments of each other, first the dead, then the living.
And I agree with you about the posts being shortened and to the point, for easier reading. Regarding believers having the mark of God, Scripture states that we are marked with a seal, the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until our redemption and in this case, this mark is not a literal physical mark, but the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The mark of the beast on the other hand will be a literal mark for worship and monetary purposes.
Again don, You are mixing terminology here.
Earthly Body is both spiritual and physical.
Heavenly Body is both Physical and spiritual.
Earthly body is distinct from heavenly body. Not the same. Our spiritual rapture MUST precede the Physical rapture….YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS. We need to put to death the flesh, and everything of the flesh, including our minds, which is of the earthy flesh, and must have the “mind of Christ”.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
3 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?
(1 Cor 2:14-3:4)
Me again said:
“Again don, You are mixing terminology here.”
Rebut:
I’m mixing anything! I proved my point that the Lord’s resurrection was bodily, but the use of the word “Anastasia” and also by Scripture, where Jesus shows his disciples his hands and his feet drawing attention to his nail marks from the crucifixion. I used Scripture to support my claim, something that you are unable to do using a spiritual interpretation. Jesus also said to his disciples that a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have, further proving that it was him in the flesh. And there are many more Scriptures to prove that Jesus rose bodily, like the following:
“The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. “Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal [the body] and tell the people that he has been [raised from the dead].”
Well apparently, according to the chief priests and the Pharisees, they new what kind of Resurrection Jesus meant when he said “After three days I will rise again” when they went to Pilot to ask for a guard to guard his BODY so that his disciples wouldn’t steal it and then say he had resurrected. Once again Scripture supports a bodily resurrection, not a spiritual one. Furthermore, l have already provided the definition of the word “Resurrection” and it has to do with the body, period!
he was talking about us, not jesus.
Tom said:
“You “raised from death to life” that’s your rapture as well. And I can also say its your “quickening” –“translation” into the heavenlies — morphing into another Creation into a “New Dimension” .
Rebut:
You’re just plain ignoring Scripture now, which is why I usually don’t debate with Amillennialist or those who spiritualize Scripture and that because one who adheres to the Scriptures cannot use them to support their claim. The problem here is that, you ignore the literal written word and opt for a prepackaged interpretation that has been taught to you by others. My proof is that I provided the Scriptures and the definition of the word Resurrection and you just ignored them. I Thes.4:16 demonstrates that the resurrection and catching away takes place at the time when Christ descends from heaven with all of the righteous dead rising first, and with the living believers following immediately afterward. The whole Scripture shows that the event of the resurrection is an event that involves the entire church at the same time, yet you ignore Scripture once again, and claim that a believer is resurrected individually at the time of death, which in no way is supported in Scripture.
Tom said:
Our life is a “written Epistle from God. If we die – He already knows who you are. You will not have to lay in grave for 500 years to be with Christ.
Rebut:
Another thing that you continue to do, is not listen. So listen carefully! When a believer dies, according to Scripture, his spirit/soul departs from his body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Just to be clear, those believers who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church until this present day, have departed from their bodies and went to be in the presence of the Lord. Their bodies are in the ground decayed or decaying and their Spirits are in the presence of Christ. You follow me so far? Now, when Christ descends from heaven, he will bring with him all of those souls/spirits who died and went to be in his presence and they will be reunited with those bodies that will be resurrected at that time. The word “Anastasis” does not refer to a spiritual resurrection, but a bodily resurrection. Look it up! Therefore, it is the body that lies in the grave, but the spirit/soul that occupied those bodies are in the presence of the Lord in heaven.
And since we are on the subject, those who do not belong to Christ, when they die, they go to Hades where they will remain in torment until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where at which time their souls/spirits will be released from Hades and be reunited with their resurrected bodies only to be judged for their sins at the great white throne judgment and then cast into the lake of fire. Regarding this judgment that is plainly listed in Rev.20, you once again blatantly ignore the Scripture that states this information. I would list all of the Scripture here that prove this, but I know that you won’t pay any attention to them.
Regarding the debate going on about literal vs symbolic, spiritual vs physical –
This morning The Berean morning comments were on Hebrews 10:24-25
(24) And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, (25) not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (NKJV)
The meaning of “exhort” according to Merriam Webster online:
“Full Definition of EXHORT, transitive verb: to incite by argument or advice, urge strongly.”
Well, there certainly has been a lot of that going on here. 🙂
The Bereans continue: “The New Testament is replete with various admonitions on how we should interact with our brothers and sisters in the church. Obviously, God views our interaction with other Christians as vital to our training to become members of the God Family and qualifying for a position in His Kingdom. He wants us to develop interpersonal skills that equip us to deal with occasional differences of opinion and offenses.”
I’m glad to see the board posts here being a bit more civil, though repeating what the other is saying, and then replying . . . . . I know it is hard sometimes to follow one’s answer to another’s statement (he says, you say), but the shortening of posts have also made it easier to follow along with the change in tone, and for the rest of us not to just skip over verbiage. Though only a few here may be in this debate, many of us here have been following with great earnest.
Denise
amen
I have been telling people to state their case and then back it up with scripture….then it is up to them and everyone to be sure the interpretation is correct.
if they can defend their views here, then they will be able to defend them out in the world
Denise,
As much as I respect what you say above, my comments are not meant as “entertainment”, nor will I ever master one line pithy comments.
All I have said on this site is said in love for the person the comment is directed (hard to believe for some of you, I know). As a first responder, you know that people sometimes have to be told things in less than “Polite” ways, so as to have them understand the gravity of what is going on. The Initial response is always defensiveness and shock and denial….”My son is a good kid, he would never do such and such”. Eventually the reality of their actions sets in, sometimes it never does, and they remain in denial despite the facts. (As an example think of the Ferguson incident).
This same response is also evident when one is rebuked (corrected) and exhorted. The following is the biblical definition of exhort, which has a more positive meaning than Webster has.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3870&t=KJV
Basically to call someone out who is doing something wrong and encouraging them to go in the right direction via instruction.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. (Heb. 3:13)
Paul rebuked and exhorted Peter in the book of Galatians. The seven letters to the seven churches in revelation are exhortations of those churches. James exhorted Paul to take the Nazerite vow in Acts. To stand idly by and let the error and hypocracy be tolerated in the name of not shaking the boat is not the loving thing to do. In doing so you are allowing that person to be hardened in their sin.
Exhortation is a vital part of fellowship. “Daily” is what scripture instructs us to do this, “…and so much the more, as ye see the day (of the Lord) approaching.” (Hebrews 10:25B) Read both of those passages in Hebrews in their context when you have time. They are all but ignored by the country club churches of today.
God Bless.
me again
denise did not say your comments were entertainment. she was glad all the comments were more civil
one big mistake people CAN make here is assuming that they are better than everyone else and smarter, so they should criticize everyone else on a personal level with their arguments…
people can exhort, but they need to be sure they understand what someone else said correctly, and then present what they have to say.
incorrectly reading the opinion of others and then rebuking them does not work well.
Well I hope you will say that to Don as well because he misinterpreted my comment and has done so with Tom’s over and over again. for example saying that I deny the physical resurrection of Christ.
All exhortation comes out of self examination. Psalm 139:23-24
Search me, O God, and know my heart!
Try me and know my thoughts!
24 And see if there be any grievous way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting!
When God leads you out of error in your life, it is our duty to reach out to others to do the same. We need to seek, and yearn for His correction and discipline. If He is not disciplining you, you need to ask why not, Not gloat and say I am good with God. He disciplines those he Loves.
Everything I have said here has nothing to do with my superiority, It is all by the grace of God. Superiority is what the reader reads into the comments. This is the defensiveness and denial I am talking about above. The person doing the exhorting always comes out as “looking superior” or arrogant to the one being corrected. This is just Human sinful nature, and the inability to receive correction.
The worst offenders are the preachers and teachers out there. (the ones who have placed themselves on a podium) They think they are beyond correction. For those God sends simple people to confound their wisdom. He is even known to use an ass(donkey) to do this. This is Baalam’s error. He could not receive correction.
me
nothing wrong with correction as long as it is needed.
Lord bless you Denise and Marianne. It is a very hard thing to judge a person’s motives just by their writings. To them they may feel like you was hard -but it might have been in real love and they do not know it.
2 Cor. 10:7-15 ¶ Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ’s, even so are we Christ’s.
II CORINTHIANS 10:8 For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
II CORINTHIANS 10:9 That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
II CORINTHIANS 10:10- For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
II CORINTHIANS 10:11- Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present.
II CORINTHIANS 10:12- ¶ For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
II CORINTHIANS 10:13- But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
II CORINTHIANS 10:14- For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
II CORINTHIANS 10:15- Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men’s labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
These scriptures should be our guide lines to those to follow in.
God bless these posts in Jesus name – Its not for our own gratification. But its just exhortation of the Word.= If our own hearts are right with God. We all get hurt by what other Believers say to us at times. Sometimes the truth hurts. But Jesus loved the people. As I also do. You all on this forum are basically most of my fellowship. Because of the conditions of my life. And with my Wife’s condition.
For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but “”they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves””, “”are not wise””.
This is one of my favorite scriptures in the whole bible. Pentecosts compare themselves by their doctrines by themselves – Baptist do the same – Methodist the same – denominations of every kind. complement themselves by themselves. Think about what Paul is saying here.
Its not wise to just hear your own doctrine in your church and never listen to anything else. That’s how we become deceived just as Israel was. With their great Sanhedrin.
Love you all – bro tom
Concerning the topic of literal vs spiritual interpretation of the Word:
Everyone has a choice on how they approach Yah’s Word. His Word has been given to those who possess only a simple and basic understanding, but also to those who possess the greatest understanding man can ever reach. In that, the Word fulfills the purpose for which it was given. The people of Yah are to understand this and approach His Word accordingly-PaRDeS! This is not an either or discussion. The link below explains what PaRDeS is, for any who care to know. Otherwise, continue on…..
http://paulproblem.faithweb.com/pardes.htm
Shalom
good link thanks
Thanks Al,
Where the PaRDeS falls short is that it is still a carnal mental understanding. The revealed wisdom the Gospel gives is Alive and is relational.
Read the following link:
http://lovestthoume.com/Preparation/FaithReason.html
For those that do not feel like reading a long link, the following is a snippet to give you an idea of the content.
“We are not going to find spiritual discernment by attending a fine College, University or Seminary. We will find it by taking to heart and believing every word that Jesus spoke. Many things Jesus said are hard to comprehend. He spoke in parables that are as much misunderstood today as they were when he first delivered them to the multitudes that followed Him. What we are faced with here… is the struggle that rages between being ruled by our mind (rational thought, logic) and being led by our Spirit (our inner witness, the word of the Lord to us personally).”
I do recommend you read the whole post though… as the scriptural basis for this is vital.
Al
In light of this link, consider the following verses:
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5)
Al,
Thanks for this link.
Haven’t seen you here for awhile and miss your company.
Blessings
Psalm 33
Blessings to you DJ. I miss it also, on one hand, but don’t on the other. Commenting on the current topic of literal OR spiritual iterpretation, given the prevailing environment, is so ridiculous……what is the point! I do believe it is an important topic, but not in this atmosphere of gamesmanship and desperately seeking to find personal relevance, rather than understanding in the matter. But there are things coming in the very near future on a LITERAl level, as a direct result of this country’s SPIRITUAL level, which will jerk everyone back into reality. Hopefully we will talk soon!
Shalom
Al,
Ya – literal.
When the literal happens (sooner rather than later) it maybe like rain falling on Noah’s Ark. This is not a good situation for foolish virgins who get soaking wet.
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many” (Hebrews 12:14-15).
Blessings
Psalm 33
Please – send me an email.
Good post “me again” who ever you are –
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy,[d] drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
If you “practice” the above. You have the “Mark of the Beast” on or in you.
The above is satan’s Character and Image. Not Gods. I do not know how people cannot understand these simple scriptures. Most have been brainwashed by their scholar’s that come out of these schools.
A chip cannot do all the things above. It can just tell you where you at when they want to find you. Or buy something etc. My Visa card in not going to deceive me. It can put me in the Poor house. But not in hell.
In reality – Its so simple – When you die – their ain’t but ONE HELL to go to. Not two. With the theories out today. I guess the ONE MAN anti-christ is going to some other kind of hell. Cause he’s so bad – Yet John says they both going to the same place. Death, hell and the grave. They are Marked.
Me again said – We are not going to find spiritual discernment by attending a fine College, University or Seminary- I’m right on with you. = Double amen
Palisade – Im going to check out your site above. Thank you
Tom
This is “dru” from previous postings here. I tend to be a bit more abrasive than you are, as I am carpenter who knows that abrasives (sandpaper) can smoothen and refine the wood or metal it is used on. My abrasiveness has gotten me kicked off the site before (several times), as people do not like me “exfoliating” them. 🙂
My real name is David, You can call me that if you wish.
The way I see the mark of the beast, is that it is a seduction of the devil. If one receives it, life will go on as before, you will be able to participate in the economy, become successful, In other words your flesh will be satisfied.
Not taking the MOB involves Physical death, But avoids spiritual death.
In other words, The temptations which Jesus faced are paralleled in the MOB. The desire of the flesh, self preservation, and Worshiping Satan to empower yourself. This is the final test for the church. We are seeing this today especially in the music industry, where you have to sell your soul to become famous, and it is moving into the business world as well, where the right handshake will get your foot in the door etc.
The Mark is a mental mark On the head, and empowering mark on the right hand. will there be a tattoo, or a chip involved? Yes probably, but it, in and of itself will be no different than an id device to confirm your conforming to the MOB.
That is why I am writing all this stuff here to Don, and others whom the Lord will lead to read them. Many in the churches are susceptible to this, and the most susceptible are those who mentally know a lot about God, but do not intimately know God, and hear his voice (the Holy Spirit in you). They are likely to be deceived because their faith is in reason, and their education, and not in the Knowledge of God. They will say; “LORD, LORD, did we not do many signs and wonders and cast out devils in your name?” He will reply; “Depart from me, I never knew you.” We cannot know the Lord until we put to death the flesh….all of it, including our carnal mind. That is the one thing (Person), that can be within our spiritual temple, and declare himself to be god. Think about that for a while….So many say it cannot possibly be the time of the end, because there is no temple being built in Jerusalem. But We are living stones of that temple….This is no metaphor….And right now, many are placing their mind in that holy place, and saying he is God.
The following is a post of mine from another site regarding this.
To all:
The following is a must read, and understand “dream/Prophecy”, especially the part regarding two revivals. It was written in 1980, and rings true to this day.
http://lovestthoume.com/DreamsVisionsPages/EscapeChristendom.html
Which city will you be found in?
Also, Earlier this week I had a dream. I am unsure of its exact meaning yet, but will share anyway. The above article touched on this, but I am still unsure of its meaning.
=====================================================
Last night I had a dream and wrote it down immediately as I awoke. I had this dream twice.
Dream,
11/8/14
In the dream, the only part I remember is myself asking Jesus; “what is the “outer court”, if we are the temple?”
His response: “The outer court is the flesh of my followers. The Stones of my temple are to be weathered, and not hewn, just as the stones of the alter were not made of hewn stones, rather weathered ones.”
=======================================================
From the link above the following is stated of the “wilderness of worship”
“”Yes, here Christians learn to worship God the Father in spirit and truth. You might call it the outer court of the City of God; for as you have seen, the inhabitants of that City are all around you.”
your email was fake so I will have to post this offline message after all:
mr dru
correction to your statement highlighted below.
it was not your abrasiveness that got you kicked off but your false accusations against people, and your recruiting of others to join in the attack.
if you behave, you can stay….but if you start a campaign against someone based on what YOU think is true, but is NOT true, then you will get kicked off again.
marianne
What Email?
can you give me the date of that one above so I can look it up? I have them all saved, but could not find that one.
Or are you referring to the “Obvious” one? Which began with you deleting scriptures which I had posted. Censoring the Word of God.
BTW, I was not sent here for you this time that is why I have ignored you till now. But I will say this, a warning is not recruiting others.
After this letter, you will probably have yet another excuse to kick me off your site.
“I already know the Word… you do not have to preach to me.” These were your words Marianne, when I posted those scriptures. You accused me of the following:
“you cannot prostitute the Word of God on my site.
when you stop the attacks, and abuse of scripture, I will consider letting you back.”
These are direct copies of your emails to me. And i left the more ugly accusations off of here.
BTW, I also could come here at any time, changing an IP address is quite easy. I really do not want to come back here, but am led to as is the case this time, and the last time for others. But you did not like it because you oppose truth, and want to maintain these people in a state of confusion (Babel) over these things. You thrive on debate, and never reaching repentance (the mind being changed to the mind of Christ).
Jesus is the way the truth and the life.
Even now, I can see your opposition to what I have posted above, because it shows people the way, which led to this unwarranted attack from you. On the surface, in your public comments, you come off as sweet and innocent, but in private conversation the real you shows up. The manipulative, vengeful and raging side of you. When I first confronted you on your use of the socratic method, is when it first showed up, that was what 3 years ago?
Again, Here are your words:
…” things will get better after I finish spanking some know it all behavior”. (Comment number 306066, May 21st, 2014, 9:11 pm.)
Just like a certain someone in the book of 1 Kings:
“Do you now govern Israel? Arise and eat bread and let your heart be cheerful; I will give you the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.”
You do oppose me, because you oppose Jesus. To this day, you cannot make the following confession “Jesus is the Lord” Meaning “Yehowshuwa Elohiym” in Hebrew. Instead you will quickly delete this comment.
God bless all.
you have a religious spirit. starting fights on the site will not work. I think others can read your comments and figure out where you are coming from.
my confession that jesus is lord is all over this website.
i pray that you and others get saved, and show fruits of the holy spirit.
No Marianne it is not.
I did not ask you to confess that jesus is lord, I asked you to confess that Jesus is THE LORD. You know the difference. There are many masters, there is but one LORD.
1 Corinthians 12:3 KJV
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Again, Marianne, I was not sent here for you. If you want to keep provoking me then by all means do so.
Here is a part of that last paragraph from the link I posted Tom below:
“Try taking seriously the commandment of Jesus that you love one another as He loved us. This love is cleansing and transforming, not an “I’m O.K., your O.K.” acceptance of the status-quo. God cannot change what we do not ask Him to change. We don’t ask because we don’t see. We don’t see because we refuse to hear and act on the truth when it is pointed out. WE DEFEND OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, CONFIRMING THE FACT that we have not submitted ourselves to God’s righteousness (Rom. 10:3). We refuse to rebuke and admonish one another in the name of Christian love. Our idea of love is corrupt and must be changed by obedience to the whole word of God.”
Up until your comment above, I was having a civil discussion with Don, Al, Tom and others here. You could not let it be, could you. Though My Words were abrasive, they were spoken in sincere Love for them. Why?
dru
just behave, and stop harassing. I responded when you made a sarcastic remark about me.
so just behave…you can more than abrasive, you can be just wrong about people.
I am not here to please you. I am here to moderate, and be sure things remain peaceful.
you are already provoked, but not by me. you come here that way.
and since it is my blog, I can also comment.
Bro. David – I now remember you when I first started on this forum. And I wondered where you went. You said below:
The way I see the mark of the beast, is that it is a seduction of the devil. If one receives it, life will go on as before, you will be able to participate in the economy, become successful, In other words your flesh will be satisfied.
Not taking the MOB involves Physical death, But avoids spiritual death.
I agree with you on the above. Yet God could spare His Sons and Daughters if HE desired to do so. Just as Daniel and the 3 Hebrew children. and others that were slave’s under the Beast Nations of Daniel. Jesus told His Chosen generation what to do. And when they saw Rome surrounding Israel they left Jerusalem according to some History books. And thousands could have escaped. But we do not know the number.
You said as well this below:
The Mark is a mental mark On the head, and empowering mark on the right hand. will there be a tattoo, or a chip involved? Yes probably, but it, in and of itself will be no different than an id device to confirm your conforming to the MOB.
My thoughts on the MOB in America, Is that they already know where to find us. At a push of a button they can come to your house. Your SS # if you got one which most of us do except for the aliens. They just put your number in and wham they know right where you are at. I have been in stores and just give them my phone number. And they come up with my address and everything else and that’s been awhile. Bushy helped to pass the Patriots act. And that has made identity real easy. I just watched a true cop show last night. They found the Murderer’s in 4 days. And did not even have a clue when they started.
Anyway it’s good to have someone that you can talk about end times. Without them getting all bent out of shape over your Revelation.
PS – The Lord told me also to come back on here. As I have obeyed. Yet I was having difficulty with it myself knowing rejection would no doubt come. Yet we all must forgive and forget.
As for your dream I’m thinking on it. Sounds like God was speaking to you.
As for me I’m really blessed having you on here with me. And the others as well. People have to hear something new or they will never understand the truth. I was bound for 15 years with the Pentecost, Charismatics, and Baptist you name it. They I just started studying by myself. I really got into it. When the Lord told me in 2002 to start teaching a NOW message. I have did my best. Not even understanding what it meant. I just looked up Every NOW in the N.T and was shocked.
God bless you is abundantly.
Bro. Tom
Thanks Tom,
Here is an article on the seal of God. Great read. The Last four paragraphs are profound, in stating what has transpired here. Denise, if you happen upon this post, you should read them as well, as they touch upon the topic of rebuke and exhortation.
We MUST be Spirit taught, if we are to know our Father.
http://lovestthoume.com/Preparation/SealofGod.html
God did not make being a Christian complicated. It is as simple as the relationship between a father and a son or daughter. Jesus showed us the way. He is the example we are to follow….”Not my will, but thine be done” as he prayed before taking up his cross.
I guess you have had problems because you see things from a spiritual interpretation, and others see a literal one. Both can actually apply…because what is in one’s spirit will cause them to act in the physical…
so if one has already given over to the beast in their spirit, they will take any literal physical mark that comes along.
Morning Marianne,
Regarding:
“Both can actually apply…because what is in one’s spirit will cause them to act in the physical…”
If the spiritual interpretation contradicts what is in the literal print, then it is false. Here is an example: I Thes.4:16-18 demonstrates that one, the Lord is going to descend from heaven, two, all of the dead believers in Christ are going to be resurrected, three, those believers who are still alive when this takes place are going to be changed and caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected. Now, Tom’s spiritual interpretation contradicts this event and says that, there is no group resurrection where we meet Jesus in the air, but that at the time of each persons death is where the resurrection takes place for each individual and there is no body involved in the resurrection. So, this is perfect example of the interpretation not matching the Scripture, for the context within the Scripture is quite clear regarding this. We also have other Scriptures supporting the resurrection and catching away envolving the entire church. For in 2 Thes.2:1 it states:
“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him,”
For one, the above verse supports that the Lord will appear/descend and Paul says “Our being gathered to him,” which would again demonstrate that this is going to be a group event. Therefore, to interpret the Scripture spiritually to mean that at the time of each persons death that they are resurrected, would be to ignore the context and the definition of the word “Anatasis” which is the word translated as “Resurrection.” For the word “Anastasis” never refers to a spiritual resurrection, but always refers to the body standing up again.
The bottom line is that, if any interpretation contradicts the plain print of Scripture, then it should be cast out as false, because in this case they can’t both be correct.
Don,
What you propose, is what is called the cult of textualisim.
You wrote: “The bottom line is that, if any interpretation contradicts the plain print of Scripture, then it should be cast out as false, because in this case they can’t both be correct” What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text? That require discernment and understanding from God to understand? Jesus spoke in Parables so that only those who have eyes to see can see.
How is it that we acquire these eyes?
He also warned the Laodicean church about buying Eye salve to aid our blindness. Unlike many here, I see all of us as being in this Laodicean church….Like it or not!!
I agree that there are outright fallacies that disagree with scripture, Rob Bell being one etc. But equally as perverse is to not receive the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
“He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him…” (John 1:11)
Why? Because they were so caught up in their interpretation of the text, that they could not see the revelation of the Son. Jesus did not fit their mental picture of their messiah.
There is a prophecy which is being fulfilled in this day and age as well, and that is the woman in labor giving birth. Micah 5:3 is the verse I quoted above, which specifically points to the church as being the woman. This along with Romans 8 passage on the revealing of the sons of God, and revelation 12 all refer to the same event. But your preconceived notion still sees the Woman in revelation 12 as being Israel.
Tozer wrote that “…evangelical Christianity is on a dead end street if it is going to continue to accept RELIGIOUS ACTIVITY as legitimate proof of SPIRITUALITY.” (Faith beyond reason, PG 4)
Studying the word of God is religious activity. Yes, study is vital. “Study to show thyself approved”. Not; Study to show thyself studious. What does “Approved” mean?
This concept of birth is entirely in line with scripture, but totally out of line with modern study and interpretation of prophecy. The Bible can be broken down into 2 epoch ages, with the third beginning in the NT with the birth of the church. The age of the fathers, is roughly the first 2000 years culminated in the birth of the Jacob/Israel. a nation set apart for God. The Age of the sons culminated in the birth Of the Son of God, being the next 2000 years. And then the we have the church age, or the age of the Holy Spirit, which culminates in the birth of the Spiritual sons of God. Where is this in the letter of the text?? Must be false then, Huh?
Again, Tozer writes the following regarding this birth:
“But these Born again ones, these born of the mystic birth, believed in that they were not cynics or doubters or pessimists. They took an optimistic, humble, trusting, attitude toward Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They received Him, and “to all who received Him….He gave the right [to become children of God]” (Pg 10)
He then concludes this chapter with the following:
“Why should believing Christians want everything pre-cooked, pre-digested, sliced and salted and expect that God must come and hold the food to their baby lips while they pound the table and splash? And we think that is Christianity! IT IS NOT. Such a degenerate, illegitimate breed have no right to be called Christians.
Those who insist that the Lord God humor them, letting them continue on as they are and still say in the end, ‘come faithful servants’, are fools. Someone needs to tell them so now!”
The writer of Hebrews continues in chapter 6, after having scolded them about weaning off of the milk, in chapter 5 with the following statement.
“Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.” (6:1-2)
In other words these doctrines are the milk, and that we have to move to maturity and discuss the meaty concepts of the Gospel. Why does he say this?
“12 so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.” (verse 12)
Again, this is to become counted among the saints of God. But the distinction of the saints and the faithful in Christ has been lost to the modern church. The Catholics have corrupted the concept, and the Protestants have ignored the concept proclaiming all believers as saints. The word qodesh is used in the Hebrew for saints. That is those who are set apart from, or Holy. In the greek it is Hagios, which again means “most holy thing, a saint”. It is only when you are set apart unto God that you are holy. Being a member of a church does not make you holy, knowing the bible and doctrine does not make you holy, although these may lead you there. Holiness comes from putting to death the flesh. It is almost like Satan has crept in unawares into the churches….HMM?
Don, Please, as I showed with Marianne above, defensiveness only confirms the fact that you have not submitted to God. Yield to the Holy Spirit, Let him teach you. When I first came here the Phrase I used, was, “Can the teacher be taught”. Many are so set in their traditions and interpretations handed down to them, That they can no longer be taught by the Holy Spirit. In other words they have closed their hearts and minds, hardened them if you will, to the revelation of the Holy Spirit. I did not come here to be a teacher, I came here to recommend a teacher far greater than my mind could ever be. He is the mind of Christ, the voice of God. Pray that Prayer in Ephesians 1:17ff and he will grant you the Spirit of Wisdom and Revelation. When You do, the Word of God which you have been studying, will become alive to you. Verses that you thought you fully understood will deepen in meaning and clarity. And you will learn some new things as well. But you must be willing to submit to being taught by Him. I cannot force you to do this, I can only encourage you, and tell you that the holy Spirit will never contradict the doctrines you hold dear, though he will correct the interpretations that you hold to that are in error.
God Bless.
me again
inappropriate to say don has not submitted unto god just because he does not agree with you on some point.
don defends his position properly.
Don is submitted properly already, so do not assign incorrect judgments to people’s souls.
And you know all about submitting to the will of God? You are an expert on the topic? I am not asking him to submit to me, I am asking him to submit to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Don is a big boy, and he can handle me exhorting him. He does not need your suckling and protection. Do you see what I am getting at in this comment? It is time for you to release the chains with which you bind people. In the name of Jesus, who Was, IS and forever will be, The Lord.
This is not about him agreeing with me, it is about him submitting to God, and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach him. Why are you so opposed to this? This is a biblical topic.
“To those who have obtained a faith like unto the apostles.” is who Peter addresses his second epistle to. In other words within that book is meat for mature believers.
1 John has a theme of reaching maturity in Christ Jesus. “Little children, Fathers, and young men.”
The Hebrews passage I pointed out above, about moving to the Mature topics of the faith.
The Romans 8 Passage about the revelation of the sons of God.
Again, I could place many more passages here, because these four are from three possibly four NT writers, just so that he will have 2-3 witnesses to the veracity of this topic. Not to mention Jesus himself showed us how to submit to the will of The Father.
Again, Why are you opposed to this?????? This is merely about being led by the Holy Spirit.
That video I Placed above is in stark contrast to who you are. A couple of weeks ago, you received praise from a muslim brotherhood person. It went something like this: “You are not one of those Christians”, after you denied that Jesus is the Lord to them. Even He Knew, you were not who you claim to be. Again, WHY?
This is mockery of the Lord Jesus Christ. Shame on you. Your record speaks for itself to those who care to look.
Again, Marianne, I was not sent here for you. You continue to make it about you, so that you can have an excuse to kick me off your site. How many times is it now, 5, 6? All in the name of protecting your followers from what? The TRUTH. Truth does not exist to you.
Again, Don is a big boy. Let him chew on what I have written for him instead of protecting him because the words are too harsh for your little sucklings to hear. But, you cannot allow this.
The following is to Don, DJ, Tom, Al, and any who might read this.
I will close with the following verses for now:
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. (John 16)
Just like the lady in the national cathedral, was taken out of there as a criminal, So too have I been kicked off this site for proclaiming that Jesus is the Lord. Yehowshua Elohiym. Soon, they will begin to actually take our lives for making this claim, all the while thinking they are doing a service to God.
you need to stop lying about people, and bossing them around. controlling people and telling them to “submit” when they have already submitted shows your own rebellion, trying to run people’s lives…..
I am not going to spend all my time pampering your EGO, which is way out of control again.
i told the muslim that the Father is God, and jesus is the son of god….so go deal with it…this is what Jesus says himself, unless you call jesus a liar
you are here not to exhort, but to exalt your own judgments over others, this is unacceptable.
Hello Me again,
You said:
“What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text? That require discernment and understanding from God to understand? Jesus spoke in Parables so that only those who have eyes to see can see.”
Rebut:
If you’re reading it, then it is in plain text. It’s the departure from what is written that I am concerned about. Whatever is not written is assumption. My example of this goes back to what Tom said regarding the resurrection and catching away. The plain word of God states that Lord himself will descend from heaven, that the dead in Christ would rise first and then those believers who are still alive would be changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. This is what the word of God plainly states, yet Tom’s interpretation ignores all of the context and has the resurrection taking place for each individual person at the time of death, ignoring the definition of the word “Anastasis” which only speaks of a bodily resurrection, as well as ignoring the rest of the words in the context which describe this event.
I continue to use the resurrection as an example because of his blatant departure from Scripture, as he does this with many other Scriptures. I believe in what God’s word says, not what it does not say. I do not go beyond Scripture. If there is something that I don’t have understanding about, but have my own personal opinion on, then I’ll let others know that. But as far as what is set in stone, this I will proclaim and contend for.
I’m going through each part of your lengthy post and responding with individual posts for easier reading.
(Comment #1)
Me again said:
“What you propose, is what is called the cult of textualisim.
You wrote: “The bottom line is that, if any interpretation contradicts the plain print of Scripture, then it should be cast out as false, because in this case they can’t both be correct” What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text?”
Rebut:
Imagine that, you’re calling believing what is in plain print “the cult of textualizim.” I call that believing in the written word of God. Regarding “those things which are not in the plain print of text” then their would be nothing to comment on and that because it wouldn’t be something that you could read. Where would you be getting the information from something that is not written in plain print?
Me again said:
“Jesus spoke in Parables so that only those who have eyes to see can see.”
Rebut:
Here is the real, Scriptural reason of why Jesus spoke in parables:
============================================
“The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
=============================================
So first of all, Jesus’ speaking in parables was specific to Israel, not to the church. And second, the reason that Jesus spoke in parables to Israel was because it was prophesied that he would, as can be seen from the Scripture above. Regarding their not understanding Paul says:
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.”
Therefore, the speaking of parables is to Israel and does not apply to me or the church.
Me again said:
“He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him…” (John 1:11) Why? Because they were so caught up in their interpretation of the text, that they could not see the revelation of the Son. Jesus did not fit their mental picture of their messiah.
Rebut:
The real reason that Israel did not except Jesus as their Messiah, was because as I have already listed above, they were meant not to because of the prophecy previously mentioned. And second, a suffering savior was repulsive to them, as they expected the coming Messiah to come and restore the kingdom to Israel and defeat their enemy, Rome.
(Me again – post #1)
Me again – Post #2 (Continued)
Me again said:
“There is a prophecy which is being fulfilled in this day and age as well, and that is the woman in labor giving birth. Micah 5:3 is the verse I quoted above, which specifically points to the church as being the woman. This along with Romans 8 passage on the revealing of the sons of God, and revelation 12 all refer to the same event. But your preconceived notion still sees the Woman in revelation 12 as being Israel.
Rebut:
First of all, that Israel is the woman of Revelation 12 is not a preconceived notion, but is what Scripture supports. Nothing that I proclaim is preconceived, but is supported by Scripture. I have posted the proof that Israel is the woman in question many times, but I will post it here again for the sake of this debate:
“Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.’ ”
“When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”
In Joseph’s dream, the same symbols used in Rev.12 regarding the woman are used here in Gen.37:9-10. After Joseph tells Jacob his dream, Jacob then identifies who the sun, moon and stars are:
Jacob = Sun, Moon = wives, Stars = twelve tribes of Israel
Therefore, the woman of Revelation clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars represents the nation Israel. During that time, the woman/Israel, will give birth to a male child, which is a collective name for the 144,000 who will come out of Israel, meaning that they will recognize that Jesus is their Messiah (gives birth to). These are the first fruits to God and will be caught up to his throne before the Dragon/Satan can devour/kill them. The woman who will give birth to them, unbelieving Israel, will then flee out into the desert where there will be a place prepared for her by God. It is the setting up of the abomination that will cause their fleeing which is the desolation.
Re: rev. 12, were there not 12 disciples as well, who began the church? Therefore the church is the Woman, as the whole book of revelation is addressed to the church/Spiritual Israel. The 144000 have nothing to do with this passage. How can I say this? Scripture. Was Paul talking of the church in Romans 8, or was he talking about Israel? Micah 5:3, the “she” in this scripture is not the “them”. The “them” is clearly Israel from the context of the previous verse. So who are the ones being born then?The Saints. Who are the saints? The sons of God (Romans 8). How many of them are there? we do not know. The crown of twelve stars are the apostles. The clothing of the Sun is the blood of the Lamb which has covered the church. The moon at her feet is literal Israel, the New covenant stands upon the Old one.
Just because the same symbolism is used, does not mean the that the two passages are pointing to the same thing. You would have to disregard the passage from Micah, and Romans 8 to make your preconceived notion fit. This is a case, where the interpretation of yours falls short. You used scripture to interpret scripture, but because the HS was not your guide, you missed the correct scripture to draw your conclusion, and then built a whole framework to it, knitting it together with the prophecy of the 144000 of Israel.
I say this not to offend you, but to perhaps get you to see how false interpretation is easy to get into your mind, if you are only relying on your carnal mind.
16 Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?[d] 17 They make much of you, but for no good purpose. They want to shut you out, that you may make much of them. 18 It is always good to be made much of for a good purpose, and not only when I am present with you, 19 my little children, for whom I am again in the anguish of childbirth until Christ is formed in you! 20 I wish I could be present with you now and change my tone, for I am perplexed about you. [Galatians 4]
Hear, David, Drew, said:
“but because the HS was not your guide, you missed the correct scripture to draw your conclusion, and then built a whole framework to it, knitting it together with the prophecy of the 144000 of Israel.
I say this not to offend you, but to perhaps get you to see how false interpretation is easy to get into your mind, if you are only relying on your carnal mind.”
All I can say is, Oh, the arrogance! To take it upon yourself to know whether or not I obtained that information via the Holy Spirt or not. You havd done this a number of times. Who do you think that you are that you can come to that conclusion?
I do not agree with you and never will and that because God has shown me who the woman of Rev.12 is and I guarantee you that iit is not the church, but is the nation Israel. God used the same symbols in Rev 12 as in Gen.37:9-10 for the purpose of identifying who woman is. But I guess you will have to wait to find out the truth. Furthermore, you will not find the word “Church” anywhere from Rev.4 on and that because it is no longer present on earth from that time on. As I said, the male child is a collective name for the 144,000 who are the first fruits to God who will come out of Israel. They will be a group numbering a literal 144,000, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes, just as the Scripture states.
There is no sense in debating these things with you anyways, as I see you DJ, and Tom as false teachers and that because of your continual departure from Scripture. Therefore, you can continue in your beliefs and teaching regarding these things, but I can never be in agreement with them, because I know what I have studied and I know that God is the One who has taught me them. But what you are teaching does not match with what Scripture teaches regarding many biblical topics.
Me again said:
“What you propose, is what is called the cult of textualisim.
You wrote: “The bottom line is that, if any interpretation contradicts the plain print of Scripture, then it should be cast out as false, because in this case they can’t both be correct” What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text?”
Rebut:
Imagine that, you’re saying that believing in the plainly printed word of God is a cult. I call it believing in the written word of God. To answer your question, “What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text?”
If they are not written, how do know anything is being said? It has to be printed in Scripture in order to even be able to understand that anything has been said. If you’re claiming things that are not written, then you have an even bigger problem than misinterpretation.
Me again said:
“Jesus spoke in Parables so that only those who have eyes to see can see.”
Rebut:
The Scriptural reason that Jesus spoke in parables is demonstrated from the following Scripture:
========================================
“The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
============================================
So first of all, It is not to the church that Jesus spoke to in parables, but to the nation Israel and that because it was prophesied regarding them. But regarding the church and according to the Scripture above, the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to us. Paul also speaks regarding this issue:
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.”
When we read the word of God, we have the advantage of the meaning of the parables explained to us.
Me again – Post #1
don
true, the literal and spiritual have to agree. I was using a different example.
and the interpretations of one verse or passage should be consistent with other scripture as well.
Imagine that, speaking up by the leading of the Holy Spirit gets you thrown out of the national cathedral!!
Here is her story and the hand of God getting her into the cathedral.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/11/disrupter-of-muslim-prayer-at-national-cathedral-god-and-drudge-sent-me/
Now, Tom’s spiritual interpretation contradicts this event and says that, there is no group resurrection where we meet “”Jesus in the “AIR”, but that at the time of each persons death is where the resurrection takes place for each individual and there is no body involved in the resurrection.
Answer: from Tom – If 2 thousand souls left out today that would be a group.
Jesus said I am the resurrection and the life.
Well I think Jesus answered that for you dmac – He IS the I AM NOW. He is the RESURRECTION and LIFE NOW. You will have to take this up with Jesus himself. Now I take that literally as well. Why do you not take this literal. It says what it says. No in betweens.
The soul that has Eternal life has a body likened unto Jesus Body after He rose. The sinners dead body goes back to earth yet the spirit goes back to God who is the only Eternal lake of Fire their is in the Bible. Then their soul enters into the Lake of fire which is God to be destroyed forever and ever. But the Soul of the Righteous live for Eternity. We will have Bodies and talk to each other and will hug others etc. etc. The Real Body is your Celestial man that is living in you right now – where the sinner only has a Terrestrial man=carnal and has not eternal life in it. Everything dies if you are a Terrestrial man. Just like a dog dies. And other animals. Dogs will not enter into Heaven. Rev. 22. Mankind is but mammals without the Spirit of God. That is why they are called Serpents, and dragons, evil and Natural brite BEAST – oh their is that word again. BEAST – Im with Peter and Jude and Jesus – they all called them what i just wrote. All anti-christ.
If you actually knew what AIR means you could understand the resurrection. But you would have to understand that first. I’ve sent the meanings and they are very, very clear to what the AIR means.
Paul said each in their own “order”. As I said before – Every day their are masses of resurrections into Death and Life. Think of all the little baby spirits of the New born’s born everyday. If you could see behind the Veil and into the skies. You would see millions of Spirits leaving out and coming in. Bout every day. Each in their own order. Do you believe you came into the world right in the right time that God set for you before the foundation of the world. I sure believe we all did.
Now lets take. Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
What is the bottom line of this scripture in your thinking.
Maybe we can agree on this one. Really let me know. It should not be that long to say.
Bro. tom
Tom said:
“Well I think Jesus answered that for you dmac – He IS the I AM NOW. He is the RESURRECTION and LIFE NOW. You will have to take this up with Jesus himself. Now I take that literally as well. Why do you not take this literal. It says what it says. No in between’s.”
Rebut:
Tom, when Jesus said “He is the resurrection and the life” he was just confirming that the resurrection and eternal life comes through him. Furthermore, you added the word “NOW” to the end of that Scripture, which is by your own doing. This saying that you have provided above does not cancel out what Jesus said regarding how the resurrection and catching away is going to take place. And we know that Jesus said it because right in the Scripture of I Thes.4:15 Paul says, “According to the Lord’s word,” which would demonstrate that Paul received this information directly from the Lord. But what did you do? You took his saying “I am the resurrection and the Life” and you cancelled out the other information that the Lord gave Paul in regards to how the resurrection would take place and replaced it with a false teaching.
(I’m responding to your lengthy post with short ones so that they can be read easier)
Post #1
Post #2
Tom said:
“The soul that has Eternal life has a body likened unto Jesus Body after He rose. The sinners dead body goes back to earth yet the spirit goes back to God who is the only Eternal lake of Fire their is in the Bible.”
Rebut:
I don’t even know why I bother with debating your claims, as they are ridiculously so far from the truth of God’s word. That being said, God himself is not the lake of fire. The word of God plainly demonstrates that the lake of fire is a literal place of final torment where the beast and the false prophet will be cast into:
“But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” (Rev.19:20)
And the lake of fire is the same place that Satan will be thown into:
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Rev.20:10)
And the Lake of fire is also the place where anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will also be thrown into:
“The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Rev.20:14-15)
So you see Tom, according to the above Scripture’s, the lake of fire is a literal place. It is the same place that Jesus spoke of regarding Satan and his angels:
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Rev.25:41)
Notice in the Scripture above, that Jesus says that the lake of fire is a place that was “Prepared” for the devil and his angels, which would also demonstrated that it is a literal, created place of torment. All that I have provided above is what I mean by the “plain print of text.” When we compare Scripture’s, they give us a more detailed account regarding any biblical subject just as I have demonstrated above.
(Continued on Post #3)
Post #3
Tom Said:
“Then their soul enters into the Lake of fire which is God to be destroyed forever and ever. But the Soul of the Righteous live for Eternity”
Rebut:
Again, you are ignoring Scripture and that because Scripture is clear in that, punishment in the lake of fire is on-going, conscious awareness in torment. For this, I refer back to the same Scripture that I used above:
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Rev.20:10)
In order to be tormented day and night forever and ever, the individual would have to be conscious and aware and not destroyed, that is, annihilation, which is what I believe that you are inferring. Regarding on-going conscious punishment, Scripture also states the following:
“If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Rev.14:10-11)
Again, the words “their torment will rise for ever and ever” would also demonstrated conscious, on-going, torment. Furthermore, the words “And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever” would also support continuous, conscious, on-going torment. Here is another Scripture that supports this truth:
““Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Mt.25:46)
Now, anyone reading the verse above would have to agree that the same word “eternal” is being used to describe the state of existence for both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, I’m sure that all will agree that the use of the word “eternal life” for the righteous would mean forever, that is, unending. That being true, since the same word is used to describe the punishment of the wicked, their state must also be forever, that is, never ending. Since we know that eternal life for the righteous is conscious and on-going, then so also is eternal punishment conscious and never ending. Therefore, you cannot have the wicked being destroyed, that is, unconscious and non existing. My point is, if in eternal life for the righteous is conscious and unending and the same word is used to describe the unjust, then their state in the lake of fire must also be conscious and unending.
(Continued on post #4)
Post #4
Tom said:
“If you actually knew what AIR means you could understand the resurrection. But you would have to understand that first. I’ve sent the meanings and they are very, very clear to what the AIR means.”
Below is Strong’s definition of the Greek word “Aer”
air, the lower air we breathe. The air (particularly the lower and denser, as distinguished from the higher and rarer.
Now, as I have continue to state, the other words of the context will bare out the meaning of another word within the Scripture. In the Scripture the following is stated:
So, we have the word “Harpazo” translated “Caught up” which is defined as “a snatching away” and as “Force suddenly exercised.” This is the same word that Paul used when he was “Caught up” to the third heaven and the same word that is used when the male child is “snatched up” to God’s throne, as well as the same word used to describe Philip when he was “caught away” from the Eunuch. Another word in the context is “Clouds” which combined with the word “air” would confirm that the word “air” should be taken literally as meaning the atmosphere and not in some spiritual sense. So, now do you understand the intended meaning of the word “air” as in literally meeting the Lord in the air? Pay attention to the context.
(Continue on Post #5)
Post #5
Tom said:
“Paul said each in their own “order”. As I said before – Every day their are masses of resurrections into Death and Life. Think of all the little baby spirits of the New borns born everyday. If you could see behind the Veil and into the skies. You would see millions of Spirits leaving out and coming in. Bout every day. Each in their own order. Do you believe you came into the world right in the right time that God set for you before the foundation of the world. I sure believe we all did.
Rebut:
The “Order” that Paul was speaking of in that Scripture, was/is the order in which the resurrection will take place. Jesus is the first fruits of the first resurrection, then those at his appearing, which is the dead and living in Christ, then the Male child which is a collective name for the 144,000, the two witnesses and then the great tribulation saints after the Lord returns at the end of the age. All of these are stages of the first resurrection and everyone who takes part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them (Rev.20:6). That being said, the church, dead and living, is next in that order of the first resurrection. Also, as far as I can tell from Scripture, no one exists prior to being born. There are not spirits waiting in heaven to be placed in bodies at the time of birth. This is a Mormon teaching which is false. You will find no where in Scripture that supports the concept of preexistence.
(Continue on post #6)
Post #6
Tom said:
“Now lets take. Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
What is the bottom line of this scripture in your thinking.”
Answer:
In order to find out what the things are the Lord was speaking of when he said ” all these things shall be added unto you” we have to look the Scripture that preceded this one, which is as follows:
“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.”
Therefore, to answer your question, according to the Scripture above, “all these things that shall be added unto you” would be clothes, food and drink. In addition to this, Jesus also said, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
well that was a lot of work, wasn’t it? 🙂
Hi Marianne,
Yes, but I’m sure that the readers are thankful that I responded in separate posts.
Yes Tom, as believers in Christ we have inherited all things through him, but we have yet to literally experience the kingdom of God. We have not seen God on his throne in heaven, nor been in his presence, nor have we seen the four living beings, nor the twenty four elders, nor any of the other amazing sites in heaven. But the time is coming when the Lord will appear and gather believers, both dead and living, and will meet the Lord in the air where he will take us back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3) where we will literally see the sites of heaven and all the angels.
when you reply to yourself, tom may not get the message. fyi
nice thought….when we finally see heaven
to all
First of all I want to say I am sending this to a GROUP, not just one person.
I am impressed with the diligence that everyone takes and the time they put into comments.
I would like people to continue to stick to the format :
you said……A
but I say…..B because….then give scripture
my perspective that more than one thing can be right sometimes, other times, only one way is right….it just depends on the context.
I want it to stay on an academic level.
I am sending this because I have noticed in the comments that “sometimes” personal assessments of others as to their genuineness or righteous standing with God is challenged or criticized.
this would restrict freedom of expression if one is confronted in such a personal way, esp if the conclusion is wrong or perceived as unfair.
so since this is a group, do not automatically assume I am talking to you as an individual, and sorting you out.
I am doing this to let all of you know that I do follow the comments, whether i respond or not, and it is my desire that at the end of the day we are all still friends, and acknowledging the sincerity of others, even if we think they are wrong.
my view is that we all have to find ways to explain our faith to others. the website is a good sounding board, and a good testing place to see how our arguments work with other believers.
i figure that we cannot even convince other believers of what we believe, then we will not be successful in convincing unbelievers when the time comes.
so the website is a good place to practice our debate and arguments for the real world out there.
i also feel that anyone is entitled to be wrong about a view. I am not always right….
testing our views is a growth process, and we all have a right to change our minds if a new argument presents itself.
i also encourage all to read carefully what someone says, in order to make sure they do not misunderstand what is said…since that would generate a discussion that is not needed and add confusion, rather than clarity
I will also post this message on the woman and the beast page….
thank you for your devotion to god’s word and your participation.
That is strange Marianne! I replied with three posts to “Me Again”, but they’re not showing up. So I retyped everything and then saved it to a document so I wouldn’t lose it. I then rebooted my computer and pasted the post again, but it still didn’t show up. I even put the post at the very bottom, but it still didn’t show up. I did respond to one of yours and that one showed up. Any idea as to why?
in spam folder.
if you do not hear back from me by posting on this site, then email me privately.
thanks Marianne – God bless
Me again said:
“What you propose, is what is called the cult of textualisim.
You wrote: “The bottom line is that, if any interpretation contradicts the plain print of Scripture, then it should be cast out as false, because in this case they can’t both be correct” What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text?”
Rebut:
Imagine that, you’re saying that believing in the plainly printed word of God is a cult. I call it believing in the written word of God. To answer your question, “What about those things which are not in the plain print of the text?”
If they are not written, how do know anything is being said? It has to be printed in Scripture in order to even be able to understand that anything has been said. If you’re claiming things that are not written, then you have an even bigger problem than misinterpretation.
Me again said:
“Jesus spoke in Parables so that only those who have eyes to see can see.”
Rebut:
The Scriptural reason that Jesus spoke in parables is demonstrated from the following Scripture:
========================================
“The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?”
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables:
“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
“ ‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
============================================
So first of all, It is not to the church that Jesus spoke to in parables, but to the nation Israel and that because it was prophesied regarding them. But regarding the church and according to the Scripture above, the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to us. Paul also speaks regarding this issue:
“I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved.”
When we read the word of God, we have the advantage of the meaning of the parables explained to us.
Don
Don read verses 17-26 at the following link:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+44&version=ESV
They apply to both literal Israel, and Spiritual Israel. Only the HS can reveal this.
Hello Hear,
I’m assuming that your reference to “spiritual Israel” is in regards to the church and if so, then this is a false teaching. Israel is Israel and the church is the church. They are two distinct groups, the church being made up of both Jew and Gentile and Israel being the nation Israel who remain under the law of Moses. Once you have made the error of referring to the church as spiritual Israel, then many errors follow and that because wherever one sees the word Israel in Scripture, they can apply it to meaning spiritual Israel (church) at their own choosing. The fact is that, no where in Scripture is the church ever referred to as spiritual Israel. It is only implied and based on conjecture.
Regarding: (Only the Holy Spirit can reveal this)
God gave us his written word so that we could know it and contend for the truth and accuracy of it. Seeing that all believers receive the Holy Spirit when they receive Christ, then for those who are in Christ, the Spirit gives us understanding of what we are reading in God’s word.
Don,
we are saying the same thing regarding Israel proper, and the Church, they are distinct groups, I have no problem with that, if that is the terminology you require. The Church is Born of the Spirit, on Pentecost. Therefore it is the chosen “branch”, albeit wild branch, on the Olive tree, which Israel proper was removed from. This is what I mean by Spiritual Israel. The Pharisees asked John the Baptist who he was. They asked him are you Elijah, The Prophet spoken of by Moses, or the Messiah. He answered with “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness”. They were perplexed because they did not understand who that person could be because they had it al figured out. My Point in asking you that question above was that you do not make this same mistake.
I agree there are prophecies in the Bible that have mistakenly been applied to the church, and vice versa, Such as your interpretation above of the woman of revelation 12. The distinguishing features, are hidden behind the text, and the rational mind cannot see them. For example, How many times have you heard Micah 5:3 quoted in a Christmas service, as a reference to the virgin Mary? This passage is obviously Not referring to Mary, as this event occurs after Jesus “Gives them up”, the them being Israel proper.
So we have a different Woman giving birth, at a later time. Who is this Woman? We need to find the truth of this in the scriptures, which is what I have tried to do.
Paul discusses all these things in Romans, beginning in Chapter 8, and then moving on to 9-11 regarding the natural olive branch being grafted in.
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion[b] mean! (11:11-12)
This Birth is a sign to Israel of when they are to be included. whenever this occurs, is the point in time where we enter the Final week for Israel.
There are other such prophecies, which conceal truths that the average Christian will not see. As an example of this read Jeremiah 50-51. There are some prophecies in here that pertain to the fall of Babylon after the exile of Israel, and others that point to the end time Harlot of Babylon. See if you can see the difference, but they have to do with this topic. When You see this, then the focus will point to who the Woman is that is riding the beast….without any doubt. Pay close attention to the “him”, and the “Her”, and the Neuter passages, as the prophecy Jumps around from one time frame to the other.
As for the Holy Spirit, God is so much more vast than our puny mind can comprehend. I would rather lean on God for my understanding, and not my mind. Nothing wrong with being a Berrean, But even the best Berrean has to say, “Lord, I need help to understand.” That is why we call this gift Spiritual discernment and not mental discernment. Men’s minds have led to many a dead end in the past.
Here is an interesting study idea for you to consider. Jesus quoted many scriptures in reference to himself. Look at those passages, in the Old Testament and their context, and try and see if you can see why the High priests, and Pharisees did not see Jesus as their Messiah. Kind of like backwords Spy novel. This is where my eyes began to be opened to his word, unlike ever before.
Here is another one to consider, Isaiah has 66 chapters. The word of God has 66 chapters. Beginning at Chapter 40 the book seems to change authors as these last 27 are more “optimistic” Chapters. Where is the John the Baptist quote from…Isaiah chapter 40:3, When is the first time he is mentioned in the NT? Matthew Chapter 3! Coincidence? Almost like there is some other things concealed therein awaiting us to find. Or it could just be a coincidence. Obviously, this parallel does not exist in other places, But it could?
A little more clear here, as the psalmist includes “those who fear the Lord”, and not Just literal Israel.
Their idols are silver and gold,
the work of human hands.
5 They have mouths, but do not speak;
eyes, but do not see.
6 They have ears, but do not hear;
noses, but do not smell.
7 They have hands, but do not feel;
feet, but do not walk;
and they do not make a sound in their throat.
8 Those who make them become like them;
so do all who trust in them.
9 O Israel,[a] trust in the Lord!
He is their help and their shield.
10 O house of Aaron, trust in the Lord!
He is their help and their shield.
11 You who fear the Lord, trust in the Lord!
He is their help and their shield.
12 The Lord has remembered us; he will bless us;
he will bless the house of Israel;
he will bless the house of Aaron;
13 he will bless those who fear the Lord,
both the small and the great.
14 May the Lord give you increase,
you and your children!
15May you be blessed by the Lord,
who made heaven and earth!
16 The heavens are the Lord’s heavens,
but the earth he has given to the children of man.
17 The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any who go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the Lord
from this time forth and forevermore.
Praise the Lord!
“I have said all these things to you to keep you from falling away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogues. Indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. 3 And they will do these things because they have not known the Father, nor me. 4 But I have said these things to you, that when their hour comes you may remember that I told them to you. (John 16:1-4)
22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’” (Rev. 3:22) Not the bible, But the Spirit
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” 2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. (Rev 4:1) This is the Voice of the Spirit, How is it that you will hear His trumpet call to come up here, if you cannot hear His voice?
Ponder these things as you ponder your missing comments.
amen
dmca
Matt. 6:33 But seek ye first the “kingdom of God”, and “HIS” righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
The “Kingdom of God” — and HIS righteousness
The “Kingdom of God” is found in “HIS” = Jesus Person – Not out in the future – The Kingdom of God is NOW happening. Jesus is all in all.
If you have Jesus in you – you are walking in the “Kingdom of God”.
It’s Spiritual as well as literal.
God bless — Palisade –
Amen,
No man is righteous, No not one!! apart from Jesus, our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our minds must be on the things of the Spirit as Paul wrote below,
There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.[a] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you[b] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,[c] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:1-8)
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. 21 When a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you.
20 And Mordecai recorded these things and sent letters to all the Jews who were in all the provinces of King Ahasuerus, both near and far, 21 obliging them to keep the fourteenth day of the month Adar and also the fifteenth day of the same, year by year, 22 as the days on which the Jews got relief from their enemies, and as the month that had been turned for them from sorrow into gladness and from mourning into a holiday; that they should make them days of feasting and gladness, days for sending gifts of food to one another and gifts to the poor. Esther 9:20-22
Purim is around the corner, Hear what the Spirit says to the churches!!!
dmac you said
Therefore, to answer your question, according to the Scripture above, Matt 6:33 “all these things that shall be added unto you” would be clothes, food and drink. In addition to this, Jesus also said, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
Yes dear Brother I see where you coming from. I understood what you was saying to begin with. Not trying to be a smart elic now. I know all the above and after of Matt. 6:33. I’m doing my best to get you to see the “Revelation of why” all this goodness comes. Please read again the below.
Matt. 6:33 But seek “YE FIRST” “THE KINGDOM OF GOD”,
Now how do we seek the “Kingdom of God” – Most of you all think it is way out in the Future. Because you do not know the Kingdom of God is living IN YOU in the Person of Jesus Christ. right NOW
by seeking “”HIS”” Means – The Person of Jesus Christ righteousness;
If you got Jesus Christ IN YOU you already got the “Kingdom of God” living in you RIGHT NOW ——and all these things shall be added unto you.
The Bottom line is. Why do most all Christians think it is ALL in the Future.
We have to Overcome the Evil Devil today. Or he will take everything God already gave you.
Quit looking in the Future for your destiny. You are NOW living out your destiny for Jesus Christ and already got the “Kingdom of God” living in you.
MATT. 6: 34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
Its all about Jesus Christ IN YOU right NOW. The Kingdom of God is the Holy Spirit in your Temple. = your Body, Soul, and Mind.
Your Temple can only be used in two ways. By Evil or By Righteousness.
All your inheritance is not coming down to you in a great big stone Temple and oh now it has arrived. That’s nonsense period. The Kingdom of God lives in your flesh and blood body, soul, and mind. NOW – All the above in your inheritance that you talked about. Has already been given to us by Jesus Christ. But we by faith have to conquer satan to get it and apply it to our lives NOW.
Palisade – bro. tom
Dmac and all – lets settle it forever. Apostle Paul know’s what he is talking about.
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom. 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
R 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Take these 3 verses literally now. and you got it right. And all who will hear what the Spirit saith unto the church by Apostle Paul.
It cannot be plainer. We are all ONE CHURCH in the N.T. Period
Palisade – bro. tom
Tom,
Regarding the above, this is a perfect example of taking Scripture out of context. Paul is speaking about grace vs. the law of Moses in those verses. He is speaking to Jews who are still relying on circumcision and the Law of Moses for their salvation, instead of trusting in the grace of God, which comes through faith in Jesus Christ. So, what has been settled forever? Every time you say, “It cannot be plainer” it ends up not being plain as to what you are trying to convey. That we are one church is true, but there are also many false teachers. Not everyone who claims to belong to Christ is of Christ. This is one of the reasons why it is important to study the word of God, so that false teachers can be spotted.
Dmca
You said – Paul is speaking about grace vs. the law of Moses in those verses.
Answer – It has always been about Grace and Faith dear Brother.
You said – which comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
answer – Its always been this way. Noah had Grace and Faith to see the end was coming, Abraham had faith, Moses same, Eze, Isa, Elijah, Joel, the whole O.T. Heb. 11 – talks about all the FAITH of the Old Testament Prophets etc. etc. The cutting off of the flesh was a sign -mark-servitude etc. The O.T is full of the shadows of things to come. From the cutting off of the flesh on a man. Is just a shadow. Man cannot produce himself into another Creation. Its takes Gods Grace and Faith to do it.
Jesus Christ message is simple: It was always talking about the Heart always. And not relying on circumcision = a flesh work of man. Its symbolic my dear friend and brother. AS Paul taught circumcision means nothing at all unless you walk in righteousness. Its the same today. With mans heart. If your heart is not in it. You will never live a Righteous life. David was saved by the Love of God that was in His heart for God. Not circumcision. He had a circumcised heart. Which comes through faith in His God.
Today we have the same going on in the church’s. The people will quit this and that. But still do not understand they are not Born again. Unless you let God do a Work in your Heart, mind and soul. Then you have built your house on the Rock – of revelation. And the gates of hell cannot stop you.
Palisade – tom
Tom,
First of all Tom, when I said, “Paul is speaking about grace vs. the law of Moses in those verses” I wasn’t asking a question which required an answer. I am well aware that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our own efforts. My point being that you tried using those verses out of context to prove an unrelated point.
Dmca -why cannot you take this literal dear brother. Paul gave us the Revelation on this one. It just opens up the Mystery plainly we are all Jews inwardly.
Rom. 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
This verse is what it says. Its plain. The circumcision in the N.T is Rom. 2:29
God bless – Palisade out for the evening.
Tom,
Gentiles believers are not spiritual Jews! As I said, regarding those Scriptures that you provided, you must go back and read the information prior to them in order to see who and what Paul was talking about.
“You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you:”
Paul is speaking to those who are clinging to circumcision and the Law of Moses. He refers to literal Jews who are boasting in the law as a means of salvation. Paul is telling them that a true Jew is not one who is one outwardly, that is, by the observance of circumcision and the law. The verse is not stating that Gentiles are spiritual Jews! For he is speaking to literal Jews. Read what Paul was speaking about in the verses prior to these in Rom.2:12-16 and then continue on. Gentile believers are not spiritual Jews. To prove my point, notice what Paul says in Rom.2:23 “You who boast in the law.” Gentiles don’t boast in the Law. Israel was under the law.
Here is another verse that shows that Paul is speaking to literal Jews:
“As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
The apostle is directing his discourse to the Jews, and shows of what sins they were guilty, notwithstanding their profession and vain pretensions.
This kind of interpretation that you are suggesting would just heap error upon error. The church is made up of both Jew and Gentile. In the church there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Dmac you siad “You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you:”
You said – Paul is speaking to those who are clinging to circumcision and the Law of Moses. He refers to literal Jews who are boasting in the law as a “””means of salvation”””. Paul is telling them that a true Jew is not one who is one outwardly, that is, by the observance of circumcision and the law.
My answer: – why do you not understand that it’s the same today in the lukewarm Christian church’s of ours. The Pastors are guilty of the same thing that the Jew’s were guilty of. “”They never had their hearts circumcised. “” Pastor’s are influence to the common people always. If the Pastor’s did not want to drink of the “New Wine” the majority will not think they need it either.
here are some examples: Of our modern Laodicean age at present time.
1. Just confess your sins and you are born again –
2. Get Baptized in water then you are born again.
3. Sign our Book and you are a member with us and on your way to heaven.
4. Serve Jesus and you can become really rich in monetary blessings.
5. Baptist – Just believe – and your are born again – Called easy believism
6. Pentecost – Speak in tongues now you got it. yet its proved many did not.
7. God loves you – more than your sins – yet God said He hates sin.
8. Worship on Saturday. – then you are Born again.
9. Methodist – you had to shout are you were not born again
10. There are “many faces of Jesus Christ” in Babylon church’s of today.
11. Now in reality – You have to have your Spirit, soul, and Body transformed, translated, and transfigured. Look it up if your are serious
12. Yes you have to “circumcise”= cut off. The Old man completely.
13. A new birth like Natural birth comes with Birth pains. In 3 steps.
14. You must receive the “SEED” first — then the WATER breaks — Then that little body laying their has to have the “SPIRIT” come into it” or its dead.
15. If you have no desire for the Seed of Christ = Word = Spirit. Then you are off base to begin with cause you really do not desire a relationship with the person you say you love. And never will see a New Birth. We are talking Spiritual seed compared to the natural seed of mankind.
16. Until you go back and receive Gods seed. Jesus said hear what the Spirit saith to the church’s – Jesus says I love you and died for you. The only part today that most want is the Love. But not willing to die for it. Its just the truth of unleavened bread. No additives by LOVE for you GOD.
Matt. 13:9 -23 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Palisade
Tom, you are too confusing and confused! A person is saved when they confess Christ as their Lord and savior and continue in faith and sowing to the Spirit. My advice is to you is the same: get away from the false teachings of men and the spiritualizing of prophecy and believe in what the literal word of God says, unless it is obvious that a symbolic interpretation is required.
This is for all of you (Drew, Tom, DJ, etc.) who continue to spiritualize the prophecy of the mark of the beast by interpreting it as being the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday and that it has nothing to do with a personal sub dermal device under the skin that will be used for the purpose of buying and selling:
=========================================
* Office puts chips under staff’s skin *
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201
By the way, this is not a Christian broadcast, but a BBC newscast.
Now that this chip has been introduced, other businesses will come on board with this technology and it will spread throughout the world making way for that antichrist and his mark.
As far as the Vatican and Islam being an unlikely union I disagree. Deep early history proves the Vatican made the Islam religion in the early beginnings to take the heat off of the pope being the antichrist like so many thought in those days ….and it is working! I think they are both involved in the end times events.
Hi Laura Lane,
Any relation to Lois Lane : ]. Here is something to consider. the Dome of the Rock sits on the temple mount and is controlled by Islam, which is why Israel has not been able to rebuild her temple. But when that antichrist comes and makes his covenant with many (Israel and Islam), it will allow Israel to build her long await temple. Guess where that would put the Dome of the Rock? Yep, in the outer court (See Rev.11:1-2). Islam would be the Gentiles spoken of being in the outer court. And we know that the mention of “Many” that one of them is at least Israel and that because in the middle of that seven year period that antichrist causes the sacrifice and offerings to cease, which would infer that Israel will have been performing them up until the setting up of that abomination.