Wrinkle Free, Rapture Ready

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Are you rapture ready?

This is a message from another site, and I wanted to share it.

http://choothomas.org/urgentmessage.html

Many focus on leaving this earth in the rapture because they do not like it here.

This is escapism, not spirituality, or holiness.

The ones the Lord will come for will be without spot or wrinkle.

Message from the Lord:

WHAT DO YOU THINK RAPTURE READY IS?

YOU THINK IT IS JUST WAITING?

AND TO LEAVE THIS LIFE AND TO BE COMFORTABLE IN HEAVEN IS RAPTURE READY?

JUST WAITING IS NOT RAPTURE READY! YOU THINK HANDING OUT RAPTURE TRACKS IS RAPTURE READY?

FOR YOU MUST CHECK YOURSELF AND LOOK BACK ON YOUR LIFE.

ARE YOU READY?

FOCUS ON ME!

YOU ARE FOCUSING ON THE RAPTURE BUT YOU ARE NOT CARING ABOUT WHAT IS IN YOUR LIFE OR WHAT YOU NEED TO TAKE CARE OF IN YOUR LIFE.

IF YOU HAVE EVEN ONE THING THAT BELONGS TO WORLD THAT YOU HAVE NOT DECIDED TO CUT OFF THEN DO NOT EXPECT TO BE RAPTURED!

DO NOT EXPECT TO BE RAPTURED! THAT LITTLE THING WILL HOLD YOU DOWN FROM THE RAPTURE.

IF YOU HAVE NOT DECIDED TO CUT IT OFF, THEN YOU WILL NOT BE RAPTURED!

I WILL ONLY RAPTURE THOSE WHO ARE WRINKLE FREE AND BLEMISHED FREE, THOSE ARE THE PURE BRIDE.

THOSE WHO HAVE OVERCOMED!

THOSE WHO HAVE OVERCOME THEIR TESTS AND PERSONAL TRIBULATIONS.

THOSE WHO HAVE OVERCOME.

THOSE WHO HAVE DECIDED TO CUT OFF THEIR SINS AND MADE A DECISION TO BE PERFECTLY DEDICATED TO ME, THAT IS MY BRIDE!!

NOT THOSE WHO JUST WANTS TO LEAVE THIS WORLD!

AND YOU THINK YOU CAN LEAVE WITH YOUR SIN CLINGING ONTO YOU?

THEY WILL NOT BE RAPTURED!!

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Note:

We have to die from all worldly desires. 

Also without hardship we cannot enter His Kingdom. 

Read Acts 14:22. 

Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

No matter how hard our situations or whatever tribulation comes to our lives we have to endure until the end because it will all be worth it at the end.

We have to remember how the Lord suffered for us on earth. 

Read Philippians 1:29. 

For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

I pray whoever reads this revelation will stay ready for the Rapture anytime. 

The most important work of our salvation is witnessing.


385 Responses to “Wrinkle Free, Rapture Ready”

  1. Outstanding post!
    I need to pause and collect the dozens of scriptures floating in my mind that support what is written. Thank you for getting my brain charged up with reading the Word – digging into the Word of God regarding the coming end of the age.

  2. This article has the right idea. Not every believer will make it into the millenial kingdom, whether dead or living. When it comes to His bride, Jesus will be very picky. The true church today is very small – referred to a a “remnant” in Revelation 12. Apostasies and pagan practices including Sunday worship (called Babylon in Revelation) will be destroyed. That leaves out 99% of modern Christians.
    The only thing wrong with this article is that there will not be a rapture, only a resurrection of the dead and transfiguration of the living at the last trump – when Christ returns to marry His bride. The tribulation will be a test to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Many are called but few are chosen.
    So don’t count on being whisked away to heaven anytime soon. Prepare for the tribulation by doing as this article suggests. Look for the remnant – the true church. Reject Babylon. Obey the commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ.
    We will all know when the second coming is near. When the two witnesses are killed and laying in the streets of Jerusalem and are then resurrected, the time will be at hand.
    Until then, don’t bother looking up.
    Sorry.

    • hi james

      I agree. The current issue is over the timing of the “rapture.” You see this used as a pre-tribulation term, and many believe this as one. I believe that the “rapture” will be at the second coming, after the tribulation. I do leave open the possibility that the very innocent, like small children and babies might be taken ahead of time, since there is no blemish in them.

      • Hello,

        First of all, you will not find the church mentioned anywhere in Revelation 12, as the woman is clearly identified in Genesis 37:9-10 as Israel and the 144,00 are those that the woman gives birth to. These are those 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes who come out of Israel (gives birth to) who recognize that Jesus is their Messiah. secondly, the on-going mistake is that, if you put the catching away of believers at the end of the age, then you would have put the church through the entire wrath of God and by the way, stop chopping up wrath and tribulation for they run parallel to each other. For after the seventh bowl has been poured out, then Jesus will return visibly and physically to the earth to set up his kingdom, which is the end of the age. And if you don’t believe that, Jesus makes an interjection that he is coming quickly right after the 6th bowl has been poured out as can be seen Rev.16:15. The same mistake is always made in that, people make synonymous the resurrection and catching away with his return at the end of the age to set up his kingdom when these are in fact two different events. At the resurrection and catching away Jesus does not return to the earth, but meets us in the air and takes us back to the Father’s house in fulfillment of John 14:1-3. In contrast, at the end of the age, Jesus returns visually and physically to the earth to take care of the beast and the false prophet and also to bind Satan in the Abyss. This is the beginning of his thousand year reign on this current earth.

        Also, in the introduction of this post is states that

        “FOR YOU MUST CHECK YOURSELF AND LOOK BACK ON YOUR LIFE.”

        I believe that this is false in that, when we commit sin and confess it to him, we should not look back on it because it has been forgiven. To look back on our previous sins is to not have faith that Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Also, if anyone thinks that he must be sinless in order to take part in the catching away, then no one would be worthy of going. If I was to look back on my life–even as a christian– and base that performance on being resurrected or caught up, then I can tell you that I personally would not be going. But thanks be to God that it is by the shed blood of Christ that we are clensed of all our sins, for it is God who justifies the wicked. Jesus shed his blood for us while we “were yet” sinners (on-going).

        “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is fathful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has not place in our lives.”

        We should do all that we can to keep ourselves from being entangled in sin, loving one another, examining ourselfs and applying God’s word to our lives, confessing our sins daily, continuing in prayer, looking for every opportunity to do good works to glorify God, studying his word and looking for his coming. We should be waking up and going to sleep meditating on God and his word.

        The true christian is wrestling with the flesh to overcome it, for as his word says, “The flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh, for they are contrary to one another.”

        “For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is not longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.”

        Oh wretched man that I am! who wil rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!

        • I have come to the conclusion we are raptured at the 6th seal when Jesus and send his angels to gather us…I tend to believe that the wrath starts with the trumpets and then the bowls…the last trump we are taken at I do not believe to be the 7th trumpet in Revelations. I believe it is the “last trump” in the Feast of Trumpets..

    • So you are saying hell prevailed over the Church for 1900 years because people went to church on Sundays? You’re accusing Jesus of lying.

      • Hi deanna,

        I agree with you that this thinking is false. The day of the week that a person worships God is not going to be in question, whether it be Saturday or Sunday for regarding this, the word says:

        “One man considers one day more sacred thatn another; and other man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” (Rom.14:1-10)

        According to James and seventh day adventists as well as others, to abserve the Sabbath on Sunday is to receive the mark of the beast described in Rev.13:16. To them the mark is not a literal mark, nor is the right hand a literal hand nor is the forhead literal. To them it is all symbolic where the right hand means “Taking action” and the forhead means “Making a decision.” They kind of leave out the part about anyone not having the mark will not be able to buy or sell (credit and debit.) We of course recognize this as a literal mark in the right hand or forhead just as it is written.

        The system for the mark is already here and the key is currently the debit card. During the time of the beast, somewhere during the middle of that last seven year period, the key to being able to credit and debit ones bank account will change from debit card to personal identification which will go into the right hand or forhead. I believe the way in which he forces them to receive it is that, he will remove the other options for buying and selling such as cash, checks, credit and debit leaving only that mark as a way of crediting and debeting ones account via computer transaction. This is exactly why we have been and are seeing a continued push for paying our monthly debts via automatic deduction from our bank accounts or by computer transaction. By the use of the debit card and payments made via computer transaction, people are being conditioned and prepared for that mark when it comes. This is exactly why you see many grocery stores with self check-out lanes. People make their purchases, scan their products, then swipe their debit or credit cards. In the future, during the time of the beast, people will make their purchases, scan their products and have their personal Identifications (the mark) scanned. The system is already here, it will just be a matter of the changing of the device that accesses ones bank account. And once the cash, checks, credit and debit cards have been made obsolete and the mark being the only viable way of crediting and debiting ones bank account, this will force all people to either receive the mark which will allow them to continue being apart of the world or to reject it and take their stand for Jesus and the word of God, knowing whose mark it is and what it represents.

        • What I just realised is that you should feel free to worship God however ‘matthew 2:27’. It is better to keep the sabbath at friday sunset to saturday sunset since it was made by God since creation and was not a pagan festival twisted to suite the majority.

          • JDB, I fully agree. Breaking one commandment is breaking them all, it’s the sin of disobedience that is not be accepted by YAHWEH. The Instructions and Commandments are not just for the Israelites but for all mankind. Deuteronomy 30:15-20 “Choose Life or choose death” (spiritual death).

            “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. (Ex. 20:8)”

            Shabbat is about to begin
            Shabbat Shalom

            • Observing the law will kill you! And that because you look to your own works for salvation instead of basing it on the shed blood of Christ alone. The written code kills! The law only made us conscious of sin.

              Reread Galatians, Romans and Hebrews for in there you find that the law has been made obsolete. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly and then nailed it to the cross. Jesus came to fulfill the law, that is, to bring it to an end, not to prolong it.

              “Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.”

              Now, am I teaching anyone to break the law, no! I am saying that we follow in the new way, by faith in Jesus Christ.

              “Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

            • The Lord has me absolutely keeping a Saturday sabbath.

          • Hi Jes,

            My point was and is is that, keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation. This is the point that Paul was making because of those who were trying to have people circumcised and obeying the law of Moses when he said, “One man considers one day more sacred that another; and other man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”

            If you pick a day to worship God, then this is good. If you consider every day alike and you worship God, then this good also. We are not under the law to observe feasts, food laws or holy days. As being apart of the church we are not required to observe Jewish customs. Jesus nailed the law to the cross as completed and is now obsolete. We follow in the new way, we follow Christ and are lead by his Spirit. Where there is no law there is no transgression.

            • Don,

              Where there is no law, there is nothing but transgression !
              Jesus fulfilled the law, he did not replace it. In other words, he kept
              the commandments and did not sin.

              As you know God gave us the gift of grace, which means we too
              can have victory over sin and keep God’s commandments, by means
              of the Holy Spirit, because of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice; a privilege
              Israel did not enjoy under the Mosaic Covenant.

              In what way does this make obsolete the law as far as our observance
              of it is concerned; or at least, observance of the spirit of the law.

              How does one have a tangible concept of transgression without
              documented classification of it.

              Jesus not only fulfilled the law, he even added to it:

              “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
              But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart”
              Matt. 25:27-28

              Blessings.

              • Don,

                I noticed you posted another comment above the one I replied to,
                while I was writing my previous one.
                You quoted: “Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.”

                This of course is true, because no one was able to keep the Law
                of Moses in their own strength. But this does not mean that the law
                is obsolete, but rather we are now able to keep the Law; but we cannot take credit for doing so, since this is only possible by faith in
                Jesus, whom empowers us with the Holy Spirit.

                Because we are justified by faith, this does not put us above the Law, but exonerates us from the inevitability of breaking the Law and it’s consequence: death.

                Someone who commits adultery, for example, after having been justified, will have broken the 7th commandment.

            • It is not a Jewish custom, God implemented it from creation for all of adam and eve’s descendants to follow for their own ‘good’. Adam and Eve were not Jews.

            • Don March 3 @ 12 It is curious that the Sabbath or day of rest was carried out by the Lord himself at His completion of this part of Creation, our Universe, Adam and Eve and all that is on the earth before men had anything to do with it. He it is that passed on to men the need for and the keeping of the Sabbath and it is the Jews that passed it on to us. He chose it and not us. Whatever we choose is not always what God chooses. The gentile nations must keep the Feast of Tabernacles on Gods day and not whatever we choose. Legalism I know is what you speak of be it gentile or Jewish but there is no reason to assume that when he spoke of the days that men choose to be holy is right, it was merely used as a point of reference that men consider different days holy.

              • My point is that days matter. I cannot say winter is summer and summer is winter and do my planting accordingly simply because it is what I choose or feel like believing at the moment. The Feast of the ingathering is the time of harvest when all fruits and veg and grains are brought in and is a type of the Lords return to harvest the earth of the righteous though I hear Christians change this harvest by saying it is only for Christians ( one grain) and not the righteous, all the harvest. The scripture clearly designates all the earth and clearly does not say church, but, I hear Christians constantly change this scripture and use the term church because they assume or choose to. I know this is wrong, but because they choose their own words or days or time or interpretation does not mean it is true, right or correct is it? It is taking a lot of liberty with the Word of God do you not think?

          • My husband keeps Sunday and I would keep Friday/Saturday but I accept him and his day. He loves the Lord with all His heart and soul and is such a kind and loving man that I worship with him the same God I love with all my heart. As the Lord said one observes one day and another another day. We came to be saved by the same Saviour and that is a wonder to me that He loved us so much He died for us. I think that is what you are all saying.

            • Marie Jean:

              You are correct, it is always about worshipping God, and though you have clearly indicated by your words that your are being a [Biblically] Godly and submissive wife in Christ, you needn’t bother worrying about your “husband’s day” … it’s not about him, it’s about God, and as a Goldy man, he should understand that.

              Also you might want to add this [Biblical] tid-bit to your walk in Christ; after Christ was resurrected, He had fully fulfilled the knowlegde that God gave to mankind [via Law and the Prophets]. Jesus said, “I am the Lord of the Sababath” [aka: its about Him] … and also, “Man was not made for the Sabbath, but rather, the Sabbath was made for man.” The sabbath is not a religious day at all, this has been hijacked by religions; the Sabbath [Biblically] it is a “Day of Rest” for you, your animals, and the servants in your household; it is to be used [by humans] as a day set aside for reflection and meditaton on the Lord and His Goodness.

              Rob

              • I appreciate your response Rob. The fact is that we do not, nor have ever since married go to dinners in restaurants or anywhere we would cause someone else to work. They may work, they must, but we do not contribute to making anyone be of service to us on our day of rest and this my husband is adamant about in keeping the Sabbath as the Lord instructed and I suspect if we lived in a different situation that day might change but, we make no quarrel where the Lords’ Words instruct us to honor Him and one another in following Him and His word. We have so much to learn in changing our walk in the midst of a very fallen world but, one thing I know that my husbands kindness, gentleness, humility and love of the Lord and Living by all His Word Old and New Testament is a Witness to all that know him and even some of our sons who because of experiences as children in the church have walked away from the church and the Lord will turn and say, that is dad he is humble like the Lord.

        • Don,

          What you say is not actually so, that is not the mark of the beast, it could be one way of controlling those who will not accept the rule or will I say the religion of the Beast.

          • In regards to the mark of the beast, if you remove cash, checks, credit and debit, basically all the options for buying and selling and you leave only that mark, then people will be forced to make the decision to receive it or to reject it. When you take away all the options and leave only the mark to be able to credit and debit your bank account, then there are going to be those who receive it in order to continue living live. And for those who don’t receive it, they will not be able to purchase anything or pay bills because they won’t have the mark which will be the only way access their bank account in order to credit or debit. We already have something that fits the bill for the mark, which are computer chips (RFID) that they have manufactured which have multiple uses, one being for financial transactions. The closest word that John could use to describe what he was seeing is the word “Mark” which means an etching or tattoo. He certainly can’t say: “He forcess all great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive computer chip on his right hand or forhead.” John didn’t know what a compuer chip was and has no word to describe it except the one that he used.

            That said, the mark is going to be some literal miniture device that will go on the righ hand or forhead and will be used in he same way that the debit card is used to debit ones account except that it will be done by scanning a persons personal mark.

          • Did you know dru that when a muslim greets an infidel they can greet with various greetings but there is one greeting that is for the muslim to the muslim only and forbidden by the prophet to infidels and they greet the hand to the forehead with it. The majority of scholars reported that starting with Assalamu Alikum is not permitted. They refer to the hadith of the prophet that was reported by Imam Muslim in which the prophet (S.A.W.) said, “Don’t start with the (salam) Islamic greeting when encountering Jews or Christians.”

            The complete meaning actually is “Peace be unto you and so may the mercy of Allah and His blessings”

            I would not want the blessings of a demon god like Islams god fior they are evil.

        • I think its going to be very deceiving. It think it will be with facial recognition or a chip. First they will try to chip all the elderly people with Alzheimer’s then people that need to be reminded to take their meds. The facial recognition has already started with smart and I phones. I have also heard that they have camera’s in stores doing the eye detection and tracking what age group and gender buys certain products. I also think many people will think well its not the face or the eye or hand, because they will think it has to be some sort of visual mark. Like when Hitler branded everyone. Also I have read that pretty soon there will be no hardrives in the new computer systems that are being developed. Technology is changing so fast. Using a computer will be called Cloud Computing and it will sold as a utility. Like a gas bill or electric. We just went to Disney and they made us scan our finger after they scanned our disney ticket card. Later I read that you could opt out if you wished. I repented of that and I ask the Lord open my eyes and give me strength and give me a head’s up so I will resist. Praise Jesus and Run the Race.

          Monie

          • Monica Zander April 3, there is no need for a chip, for in all Islamic countries none may live and take up residence without the mark of the beast of Islam. Sharia is setting up completely and allows no one to live and work without submission to Islam, submission as a second class citizen in dhimmitude or slavery or death. There is none other allowed as the scripture said. All on earth must submit to Islam or death as the scripture in Revelation says. The two witnesses are the Jews and Christian gentiles saved who carried the oracles of the Old and New Testaments to mankind and they were killed in all the cradle of Judaiism and Christianity for these last 2000 years, first by Rome and then by Islam. They came back to life in 1897, the first Zionist Congress started a call to come home and 1917 when General Allenby walked into Jerusalem and wrenched Jerusalem from Islam and 1948 and 1967 through whose years some of us heard the song of Jimmy Durante singing to millions of the head bone connected to the neck bone connectd to the arm bone connected etc etc, about Ezekiel 37 as the bones of Israel lieing dead across the earth were moved and gathered from the four corners of the earth by many of us carrying them and planting in their land and they were given flesh and breath. Oh that the Lords’ children would annoint their eyes that they might see what great and mighty thing has been done. And in this great miracle even his Christian children are coming back to life in Israel because Israel is brought back to life and the land that was swamp and empty is blossoming like a rose. None greater than These two great witnesses on the earth shall come for they are come back to life in the middle east and it is a shock and disgust to all the nations about who hate them with a passion but the horn is blowing for all things that were hidden are disclosed to those with ears to hear that life is come back and He who is mercifully merging Judgements in hopes that many may repent shall soon see them change to wrath for their hatred and violence to His children. It is no surprize that Muslims have been emptying their lands of Jews, Christians and non-Muslims because they will soon suffer the wrath for their 1400 years of unjudged violence to all unbelieves of Islam! Mystery Babylon the statue of Daniel is no mystery any more for it is restored in the hatreds of Islam and stand now to be judged by God!

        • This makes total sense

    • Richard ,

      I agree totally with you, just be careful of who you expect the 2 witnesses to be.

      • Johan,

        Thanks; I expect the two witness to be not persons, but the double edged sword of God; the left and right of Matthew !

        Be blessed

    • (First, please “Copy and Paste” onto a WORD Doc, then you can easily read at your leisure)

      James said: This article has the right idea. Not every believer will make it into the millennial kingdom, whether dead or living. When it comes to His bride, Jesus will be very picky. The true church today is very small – referred to a “remnant” in Revelation 12. Apostasies and pagan practices including Sunday worship (called Babylon in Revelation) will be destroyed. That leaves out 99% of modern Christians. The only thing wrong with this article is that there will not be a Rapture only a resurrection of the dead and transfiguration of the living at the last trump – when Christ returns to marry His bride. The tribulation will be a test to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Many are called but few are chosen. So don’t count on being whisked away to heaven anytime soon. Prepare for the tribulation by doing as this article suggests. Look for the remnant – the true church. Reject Babylon. Obey the commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. We will all know when the second coming is near. When the two witnesses are killed and laying in the streets of Jerusalem and are then resurrected, the time will be at hand. Until then, don’t bother looking up.

      Sorry.

      ==================================================================================================

      My Response: James, buddy, I read your post, and as a Bible teacher, researcher, and investigator for almost 3 decades now, I was sadly appalled at the many Biblical Scriptural interpretive errors in your post. I would like to be of help to you and the many, if I could.

      James said: “When it comes to His bride, Jesus will be very picky.” That is untrue and religiously legalistic; Jesus will take anyone who repents (who turns from their sins, in truth, to follow Him). Jesus said “Come as you ARE”… He never said, “But not until you first get it right.” He said, “Come, ALL OF YOU who are burdened and heavy laden”… that means with sin, not with daily troubles; daily troubles are normal to all people, both the repentant and the unrepentant; troubles don’t keep you out of Heaven, but sin will; so Jesus is saying, “get yourselves unburdened and lighten your (sin) load, by repenting. Salvation is not based on what I or anyone else does, it is based completely (and only) on what Jesus did on the Cross 2,000 years ago; it is a Gift of God’s Salvation Grace (an unmerited, undeserved, unearned Gift from God, to us); to anyone who will truly repent from their sins; which does not mean just being sorry for your sins, as we should be; “true repentance” means I was once committing “these sins,” but now (by God’s intervention in my life), I’ve made a “personal choice” to stop doing that; in other words, I was once heading in “that direction” (sinfully walking with the world; acting and talking like the world); but now, I’m changing the “direction” (of my walk and ways) in my life; both completely and permanently; and, I’m choosing to walk in “this new direction”… towards Jesus.

      That is what Jesus meant when he told Nicodemus in John 3:1-7, “You MUST BE born again.” Born again is not a religious thing; it is not a Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish thing; it is not a choice we have, nor a philosophy; it is a MANDATE given from God Himself (Jesus), if you want to be able to do two very critical things according to Jesus, [1] to be able to correctly “understand and interpret” the Holy Scriptures [because when you become born again, the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of you, just like He did to the apostles at Pentecost; so now, He also teaches you too]; and, [2] to enter into Heaven. So when a person tells me something that the Bible supposedly says; the first thing I ask them, “Are you born again?” If they say no, the conversation ends there, why? Because Jesus Himself said, if you aren’t born again, you can’t “correctly understand and interpret” God’s Holy Scriptures; so why waste our time.

      The Bible clearly teaches us, that those who are NOT born again, are NOT part of the Bride of Christ; and if they die that way [today], they are immediately tossed into Hades [Hades is not Hell, but it is horribly similar in torment]; then, at the Great White Throne [Rev. 20:11-15, which is ONLY for the eternally Hell bound damned, NOT for the Born again, Saved believers], those people will ALL be judged GUILTY, and then tossed into an eternal Hell (the Lake of Fire).
      Also, those that have died, or are still alive [in Christ; born again and Saved] will be “caught up” [in the Greek: Harpazo] at His Glorious Appearing (in the “air,” in the “clouds” at an “unknown” time – 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18), which is a “completely different occurrence” from His Second Coming (which is on the “ground,” on the Mt. of Olives, in Jerusalem, at Armageddon, at a “well-known” time – exactly 1,290 days [1260 + 30] after the Antichrist tells the world that he is God, in the new Third Temple in Jerusalem – Daniel 12:9-11 and Zechariah 14:1-4). ONLY those [Saved in Christ] people will be resurrected [the dead], and raised [the alive]; and both of those groups will be “instantly translated” as they are being Raptured, in the “Twinkling of an Eye” [1/1000th +/- of a second?]. The “corrupt” [the dead bodies in the grave] will put on “incorruption” [will be translated], and the “mortal” [those “still alive” at the Rapture event] will put on “immortality” [will also be translated]; then, both groups will “rise”… to meet the LORD in the Air, in the Clouds; and so shall we be with the LORD forevermore [with Jesus, in Heaven, in the Father’s House, where Jesus said He was going, in order to “prepare a place” [in Heaven] for ALL of his born again/Bride followers]; to “wait out” the Tribulation period that is “coming upon the whole earth” [upon all of the unrepentant unbelievers]; then, in Isaiah 26:19-21 [“Come My people [His Bride; born again Jews and Gentiles], go into your rooms, and close the door behind you, hide for a little while [for 7 years] until the “indignation” [the Tribulation period] runs its course [has passed, ended]”… and again, in Revelation 3:10-11 [“I will keep you “from” [not “through”], “that hour” [that time period] of “testing” [the Tribulation is the “testing” of WHO will turn to God during that time period, and WHO will choose to remain unrepentant to the end; taking the “Mark of the Beast” in the process].

      In the Bible account of Noah (in) the Ark, Noah and his family were (in) the “midst of the Tribulation” [the Judgment; the Flood waters]; but they was kept “through” it, not “from” it [Noah was physically protected “through” the storm, inside the Ark]. But now, when we read about Abrahams’ nephew Lot, during the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah; Lot and his family were physically removed “from” the “midst of the Tribulation” [the Judgment; the Fire and Destruction], before God struck the Cities of the Plain. Remember what the Angels told Lot; “Hurry and leave, we CANNOT destroy this place, until you are “away and safe!” Just like the Bride and the Rapture; she will be taken “away and safe!” The Jews on the other hand [and more specifically], a “remnant” of Israel [as a nation], during the 70th week of Daniel, which is a true Jewish (7 year) Tribulation period called a “week of years;” they will be “physically protected” “through” the Tribulation [144,000 Jews, hidden and protected by God, in Petra, in Jordan]; that is the “remnant” of Revelation 7:4-8 [no Gentiles my friend]. The “Souls” of the Gentiles that die for Christ during the Tribulation go immediately to Heaven after being beheaded; they are the “Souls” that John the apostle saw in Heaven, under the altar; the 5th Seal martyrs, in Revelation 6:9-11). The Tribulation period [the 70th week of Daniel] is not for the Salvation of Gentiles [although many will be Saved and beheaded]; it is primarily intended to bring the Nation of Israel to repentance and Salvation through their True Messiah, Jesus; but the “Bride of Christ” on the other hand, will be like Lot, they will be “Raptured”… Jesus’ Bride will be physically removed “from” the “Tribulation” [from the coming Judgment] upon the UN-US-New World Order kingdom of the Antichrist and False Prophet. The Bride will not be part of the Tribulation; that is what Paul the Apostle meant when he said that we should “comfort one another with these words.” If we have to go through it, then where is the comfort in his words? There would be NONE, because the Tribulation period will be horrific and dangerous; “perilous times” Jesus said [“perilous times” means “insanely dangerous times”].

      Now, those that choose God [Jesus] during the Tribulation period will be arrested by the UN-US-FEMA-NWO Police State Forces; tortured, and then beheaded according to the Bible; they are called [in the Bible], the Tribulation “saints.” Everyone that has died obedient to God’s Word is a “saint of God;” be they Old Testament, or New Testament “saints.” Biblical “saints” are not canonized people. That is merely a single-religion belief; only God [not man] decides who are, and are not, “saints,” and who will, and will not, enter Heaven; everything else is a fraud and audacity on man’s part. It is unfounded in the Holy Scriptures; and thus, unbiblical.

      Also, those “saints” that choose God [Jesus] during the Tribulation period that are arrested by the UN-US-FEMA-NWO Police State Forces; their fate can be easily be found if you read about UN-Agenda 21; specifically the “scenario” called “Night Train”-REX 84; where they will use special “Death Trains” built by the [so-called] Gunderson Company, to be used to transport people under the [very soon] coming US Martial Law; in conjunction with the 800 [located nationwide and already built and readied] FEMA Detention Camps and Centers, that will be run for the UN-US-FEMA group; again, to be used during the [very soon] coming Martial Law that is scheduled for America [then, the world], as soon as “Total National Bankruptcy” is announced by the President [which the dark side elitists now claim could happen as soon as Sept-2012 through June-2013]; the “Death Trains” are FEMA 3-Decker Trains with built-in shackles and guillotines; you can easily find all this first hand on many YouTube videos; just type it in. It is no longer either a well-hidden or conspiracy thing anymore; that has been well-known to all Biblical teachers, researchers, and investigators like myself who also already know who the Antichrist person will be as well. He is a person who was chosen in 1984, anointed, educated, indoctrinated, and kept hidden until 2008. We also know who the False Prophet will be. He was chosen in 2003, then ratified in 2011. The Bible says that the person who will be the Antichrist, will also have been a major world leader for a “short time,” before moving up to his final sovereign world position; or in other words, look for someone that is currently a major world leader [aka: the 7th King], and then watch for him be chosen to be the 9th UN Secretary General [aka: himself will “also be” the 8th King, and will go to his destruction]. Korean, Ban Ki Moon, is currently the 8th; the number 9 is also in Jewish Gematria; it is the number for the Antichrist person; finally, that person already was revealed to the world [incognito] at the UN, on Sept. 9, 2009 [9-9-9]; now, simply turn those numbers upside down; it was a not-so-subtle Code that his “Power Backers” used for him, so that their “brothers” could start getting excited; because their Nimrodian kingdom was now at hand. This person has all the very same attributes and titles as the first [Luciferian-backed] Nimrod of ancient Babylon [aka: the Old World Order]. This chosen person even comes from the very same original ancient African Cushite kingdom nation and area as [ancient] Nimrod did; in fact, his actual CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) Code name [is] Nimrod. His Power Backers at the UN have some very unusual statements as part of their new UN Constitution agenda; these two statements are attributed to their former “Director of the UN Planetary Commission,” in the year 2000. A Mr. David Spangler [“Planetary Commission” aka: a very real and actual Alien Forces [aka: demons] welcoming Committee; just like the [demonic hybrid] Nephilim of Genesis 6]. Here you go boys and girls:

      [Quote]: “No one will enter the New World Order [aka: the One World Government], unless he or she makes a pledge to worship Lucifer; and no one will enter the New Age [aka: the One World Religion], unless he or she undergoes a Luciferian Initiation.” [End Quote].

      [Quote]: “In the New world Order, mankind will become a throw away. You will be allowed to exist, until you become a surplus to our [global] agenda. The world has a cancer, and that cancer is man.” [End Quote]

      It isn’t Rocket Science my dear friends of the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE; Jesus said it, become BORN AGAIN [immediately; like right now]; the hounds of Hell are already at the door, clawing to take over; that is how close we are to the Rapture. All we have to do is obey Him [Jesus], how hard is that? Jesus can’t condemn anyone for obeying Him, but He can surely do so if we don’t. Jesus will ask many so-called Christians at the Great White Throne judgment, “Why did you [bother to] call Me LORD, LORD, and yet, you didn’t do what I asked of you [to become born again]?”

      So repenting and becoming born again is a “personal choice of the human heart,” and God’s Grace then reciprocates “your choice” in the form of “His Salvation of your Soul,” which is A FREE Gift (from God), granted to ANYONE who will make that “personal choice”… ergo: it is not by “works.” And when we make “that personal choice,” we then believe God, and take Him at His Word, that we are indeed (eternally, not temporarily) Saved; so, we go on to the end, “Walking by Faith (in what God promised), and not by Sight (what we think we should do [works]).”

      Salvation is not JESUS + me and my works … it is JESUS + nothing else, other than to repent and believe; then, walk by faith in that belief. Works is not without merit though; if we follow Jesus, it is incumbent upon a follower to do things to “serve others,” but those works will never Save you; they only come into play as “those treasures stored up for ourselves in Heaven.” Someday, when we stand before King Jesus to give an account of our lives, those works (that you did [for], or [against] the LORD, that you thought no one else ever knew about, will be remembered. The “good and righteous works” will bring rewards to you (like precious metal, they will endure); but the “bad and unrighteous works,” they will be burned up (like the hay and stubble); you won’t be punished for them, you will simply receive no reward for those works.

      How do I become born again? I’m sure glad you asked; in the privacy of your own heart, with God; this is what the Father wants to hear form all the people that “choose” to become His children … “To them He [Jesus] granted the right to “become” children of God, to all those that believed.”

      HEAVENLY FATHER, I am a SINNER and in desperate need of a SAVIOR. I repent of all my sins. Please cleanse me with the Precious Blood of Your Son JESUS. At this moment, I proclaim with my mouth, and fully believe in my heart, that JESUS died on the Cross for my sins; rose from the dead, and is the ONLY WAY to enter Heaven. Please send Your HOLY SPIRIT to come live inside me from this day forward; and ask the HOLY SPIRIT to write MY NAME in the LAMB’s Book of Life. Father God and Jesus, please forgive me, and Save me. (The LAMB’s Book of Life – Revelation 20:11-15)

      James said: When the two witnesses are killed and laying in the streets of Jerusalem and are then resurrected, the time will be at hand. Until then, don’t bother looking up.

      My Response: Please don’t follow James’ lead here. The Bible says to “remain ALWAYS waiting with great anticipation, for the appearing of the LORD [in the Clouds, the Rapture]; LOOKING UP ALWAYS, for your Redemption [your “taking away, your recovery”] is at hand [is on the way]. Also, since it is the Antichrist that kills them [Moses and Elijah] after they expose him [the Antichrist] for the “total fraud” that he is, after having called himself God in front of them, in their new Temple. That is when the “remnant” runs to seek God’s [physical] protection in Petra, Jordan. So, more specifically to those 144,000 Jews in Petra, the post-death resurrection of Moses [for the Law] and Elijah [for the Prophets], and not Enoch; is a very direct and clear sign to ALL of the Jewish Nation “remnant” and those that survive the mass attacks of the Antichrist’s UN-US-FEMA World Forces at Jezreel and Jerusalem; that from the Book of Daniel, they “can now know” that they need only to hang on for 1,290 more days [from that very day]. It is then that their Messiah, JESUS, will be back in GREAT GLORY, with His Bride church “saints” and all of God’s Angels; to Save them [Israel] from Armageddon annihilation at His Second Coming. So, we the Bride church “saints” can’t possibly come back “with” Him [Jesus], unless He [Jesus] had first come “for” us.

      In the Rapture, the Bride church goes UP, to meet the LORD in the AIR, and goes into the CLOUDS. At the Second Coming, the Bride church comes DOWN, with Jesus, THROUGH the clouds; two completely different events, 2,520 days (7 years) apart. The Bible was written FOR Jews, BY Jews [except Luke], and is ABOUT Jews; Gentiles are grafted in. So you have to look at the entire Bible, not from a western society standpoint; but, from a Jewish standpoint; or, you will go off in error, and be terribly wrong; and that is fixed for you, when you [truly, not almost] become born again.

      The Rapture – 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18: Remember, everyone is created BY GOD, but not all are Children OF GOD. In the Gospel of John, Jesus Himself said: “You do not hear [nor understand] what I am saying, because you are not of My Father [God]; but rather, you are your father, the Devil.”

      All people that are NOT BORN AGAIN [according to Jesus, who is God], is still of the Devils family, until such time as you make the personal choice to become born again [then you are “granted the right” to become and be called His children]; and that has absolutely nothing to do with any water or infant baptism. Baptism is merely an outward sign [to others around you] about an inward choice [of the heart] that you’ve just made with God. Infants can’t make those choices; God says that your repentance must be made with YOUR OWN mouth, and the belief must be acknowledged in YOUR OWN heart.

      It is a Holy Spirit [Spiritual, not physical] “circumcision of the heart”… and it comes from above, from God. John the Baptist himself said; “I baptize you [now] with water, but there will come ONE [in the future; the Holy Spirit] that will baptized you with FIRE! That is when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside you; just like at Pentecost [the cloven flames]. It was after that, after the apostles became born again [with the Holy Spirit now inside them], that the apostle became forever FEARLESS. Before that Holy Spirit experience, they always ran scared and hid from the Sanhedrin and the Romans. That is why God says, “If I be for you [if I God, am on your side], who can be against you [who in all creation could possibly fight against you and win]?”

      So, there is no middle ground people; you’re either ALL IN or you’re OUT. Please have a blessed day in the LORD, and warn as many friends and family members as possible; the evil roaring lion is already going about, seeking whom he might destroy. He is already here, just waiting for Martial Law to start; so how much closer is your redemption then?

      PRAISE GOD!

      • UPDATED from my “4-10-2012” posting; please use this one instead, and toss the previous version (above): Thanks!

        (First, please “Copy and Paste” onto a WORD Doc, print out, then read at your leisure)

        James said: This article has the right idea. Not every believer will make it into the millennial kingdom, whether dead or living. When it comes to His bride, Jesus will be very picky. The true church today is very small – referred to a “remnant” in Revelation 12. Apostasies and pagan practices including Sunday worship (called Babylon in Revelation) will be destroyed. That leaves out 99% of modern Christians. The only thing wrong with this article is that there will not be a Rapture only a resurrection of the dead and transfiguration of the living at the last trump – when Christ returns to marry His bride. The tribulation will be a test to sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Many are called but few are chosen. So don’t count on being whisked away to heaven anytime soon. Prepare for the tribulation by doing as this article suggests. Look for the remnant – the true church. Reject Babylon. Obey the commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. We will all know when the second coming is near. When the two witnesses are killed and lying in the streets of Jerusalem and are then resurrected, the time will be at hand. Until then, don’t bother looking up.

        Sorry

        ==================================================================================================

        My Response: James, buddy, I read your post, and as a Bible teacher, researcher, and investigator for almost 3 decades now, I was sadly appalled at the many Biblical Scriptural interpretive errors in your post. I would like to be of help to you and the many, if I could.

        James said: “When it comes to His bride, Jesus will be very picky.” That is untrue and religiously legalistic; Jesus will take anyone who repents [who turns from their sins, in truth], to follow Him. Jesus said “Come as you ARE”… He never said, “But not until you first get it right.” He said, “Come, ALL OF YOU who are burdened and heavy laden”… that means with sin, not with daily troubles; daily troubles are normal to all people, both the repentant and the unrepentant; troubles don’t keep you out of Heaven, but sin will; so Jesus is saying, “get yourselves unburdened and lighten your [sin] load, by repenting. Salvation is not based on what I or anyone else does, it is based completely [and only] on what Jesus did on the Cross 2,000 years ago; it is a Gift of God’s Salvation Grace [an unmerited, undeserved, unearned Gift from God, to us]; to anyone who will truly repent from their sins; which does not mean just being sorry for your sins, as we should be; “true repentance” means I was once committing “these sins,” but now [by God’s intervention in my life], I’ve made a “personal choice” to stop doing that; in other words, I was once heading in “that direction” [sinfully walking with the world; acting and talking like the world]; but now, I’m changing the “direction” [of my walk and ways] in my life; both completely and permanently; and, I’m choosing to walk in “this new direction”… towards Jesus.

        That is what Jesus meant when he told Nicodemus in John 3:1-7, “You MUST BE born again.” Born again is not a religious thing; it is not a Protestant, Catholic, or Jewish thing; it is not a choice we have, nor a philosophy; it is a MANDATE given from God Himself [Jesus], if you want to be able to do two very critical things according to Jesus, [1] to be able to correctly “understand and interpret” the Holy Scriptures [because when you become born again, the Holy Spirit comes to live inside of you, just like He did to the apostles at Pentecost; so now, He also teaches you too]; and [2] to enter into Heaven. So when a person tells me something that the Bible supposedly says; the first thing I ask them, “Are you born again?” If they say no, the conversation ends there, why? Because Jesus Himself said, if you aren’t born again, you can’t “correctly understand and interpret” God’s Holy Scriptures; so why waste our time.

        The Bible clearly teaches us, that those who are NOT born again, are NOT part of the Bride of Christ; and if they die that way [today], they are immediately tossed into Hades [Hades is not Hell, but it is horribly similar in torment]; then, at the Great White Throne judgment [Rev. 20:11-15], which is ONLY for the eternally Hell-bound damned, NOT for the Born again, Saved believers; those people will ALL be judged GUILTY; and then, tossed into an eternal Hell [the Lake of Fire].

        Also, those that have died, or are still alive [in Christ; born again and Saved] will be “caught up” [in the Greek: Harpazo] at His Glorious Appearing [in the “Air,” in the “Clouds” at an “unknown” time – 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18], which is a “completely different occurrence” from His Second Coming [which is on the “ground,” on the Mt. of Olives, in Jerusalem, at Armageddon, at a “well-known” time – exactly 1,290 days [1260 + 30] after the Antichrist tells the world that he is God, in the new Third Temple in Jerusalem – Daniel 12:9-11 and Zechariah 14:1-4]. ONLY the [Saved in Christ] people will be resurrected [the dead], and raised [the alive]; and both of those groups will be “instantly translated” as they are being Raptured into the Air, in the “Twinkling of an Eye” [1/1000th +/- of a second?]. The “corrupt” [the dead bodies in the grave] will put on “incorruption” [will be translated]; and, the “mortal” [those “still alive” at the Rapture event] will put on “immortality” [will also be translated]; then, both groups will “rise”… to meet the LORD in the Air, in the Clouds; and so shall we be with the LORD forevermore [with Jesus, in Heaven, in the Father’s House], where Jesus said He was going, in order to “prepare a place” [in Heaven] for ALL of his born again/Bride followers; to “wait out” the Tribulation period that is “coming upon the whole earth” [upon all of the unrepentant/unbelievers]; then, in Isaiah 26:19-21 [“Come My people [His Bride; born again Jews and Gentiles], go into your rooms, and close the door behind you, hide for a little while [for 7 years] until the “indignation” [the Tribulation period] runs its course [has passed; ended]”… and again, in Revelation 3:10-11 [“I will keep you “from” [not “through”], “that hour” [that time period] of “testing” [the Tribulation is the “testing” of WHO will turn to God during that time period, and WHO will choose to remain unrepentant to the end; taking the “Mark of the Beast” in the process].

        In the Bible account of Noah [in] the Ark, Noah and his family were [in] the “midst of the Tribulation” [the Judgment; the Flood waters]; but they were kept “through” it, not “from” it [Noah was physically protected “through” the storm, inside the Ark]. But now, when we read about Abrahams’ nephew Lot, during the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah; Lot and his family were physically removed “from” the “midst of the Tribulation” [the Judgment; the Fire and Destruction], before God struck the Cities of the Plain. Remember what the Angels told Lot; “Hurry and leave, we CANNOT destroy this place, until you are “away and safe!” Just like the Bride and the Rapture; she will be taken “away and safe!” The Jews on the other hand [and more specifically], a “remnant” of Israel [as a nation], during the 70th week of Daniel, which is a true Jewish (7 year) Tribulation period called a “week of years;” they will be “physically protected” “through” the Tribulation [144,000 Jews, hidden and protected by God, in Petra, in Jordan]; that is the “remnant” of Revelation 7:4-8 [no Gentiles my friend]. The “Souls” of the Gentiles that die for Christ during the Tribulation go immediately to Heaven after being beheaded; they are the “Souls” that John the apostle saw in Heaven, under the altar; the 5th Seal martyrs, in Revelation 6:9-11). The Tribulation period [the 70th week of Daniel] is not for the Salvation of Gentiles [although many will be Saved and beheaded]; it is primarily intended to bring the Nation of Israel to repentance and Salvation through their True Messiah, Jesus; but the “Bride of Christ” on the other hand, will be like Lot, they will be “Raptured”… Jesus’ Bride will be physically removed “from” the “Tribulation” [from the coming Judgment] upon the UN-US-New World Order kingdom of the Antichrist and False Prophet. The Bride will not be part of the Tribulation; that is what Paul the Apostle meant when he said that we should “comfort one another with these words.” If we have to go through it, then where is the comfort in his words? There would be NONE, because the Tribulation period will be horrific and dangerous; “perilous times” Jesus said [“perilous times” means “insanely dangerous times”].

        Now, those that choose God [Jesus] during the Tribulation period will be arrested by the UN-US-FEMA-NWO Police State Forces; tortured, and then beheaded according to the Bible; they are called [in the Bible], the Tribulation “saints.” Everyone that has died obedient to God’s Word is a “saint of God;” be they Old Testament, or New Testament “saints.” Biblical “saints” are not canonized people. That is merely a single-religion belief; only God [not man] decides who are, and are not, “saints,” and who will, and will not, enter Heaven; everything else is a fraud and audacity on man’s part. It is unfounded in the Holy Scriptures; and thus, unbiblical.

        Also, those “saints” that choose God [Jesus] during the Tribulation period that are arrested by the UN-US-FEMA-NWO Police State Forces; their fate can be easily be found if you read about UN-Agenda 21; specifically the “scenario” called “Night Train”- REX 84; where they will use special “Death Trains” built by the [so-called] Gunderson Company, to be used to transport people under the [very soon] coming US Martial Law; in conjunction with the 800 [located nationwide and already built and readied] FEMA Detention Camps and Centers, that will be run for the UN-US-FEMA group; again, to be used during the [very soon] coming Martial Law that is scheduled for America [then, the world], as soon as “Total National Bankruptcy” is announced by the President [which the dark side elitists now claim could happen as soon as Sept-2012 through June-2013]; the “Death Trains” are FEMA 3-Decker Trains with built-in shackles and guillotines; you can easily find all this first hand on many YouTube videos; just type it in. It is no longer either a well-hidden or conspiracy thing anymore; that has been well-known to all Biblical teachers, researchers, and investigators like myself who also already know who the Antichrist person will be. He is a person who was chosen in 1984, anointed, educated, indoctrinated, and kept hidden until 2008. We also know who the False Prophet will be. He was chosen in 2003; then ratified in 2011. The Bible says that the person who will be the Antichrist, will also have been a major world leader for a “short time,” before moving up to his final sovereign world position; or in other words, look for someone that is currently a major world leader [aka: the 7th King], and then watch for him be chosen to be the 9th UN Secretary General [aka: he himself will “also be” the 8th King, and will go to his destruction]. Korean, Ban Ki Moon, is currently the 8th UNSG; the number 9 is also in Jewish Gematria; it is the number for the Antichrist person; finally, that person was already revealed to the world [incognito] at the UN, on Sept. 9, 2009 [9-9-9]; now, simply turn those numbers upside down; it was a not-so-subtle Code that his “Power Backers” used for him, so that their “brothers” could start getting excited; because their Nimrodian kingdom was now at hand. This Antichrist person has all the [very same] attributes and titles as the first [Luciferian-backed] Nimrod of ancient Babylon [aka: the Old World Order]. This chosen person even comes from the [very same] original ancient African Cushite kingdom nation and area as [ancient] Nimrod did; in fact, his actual CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) Code name [is] Nimrod. His Power Backers at the UN have made some very unusual statements as part of their new UN Constitution agenda; these two statements are attributed to their former “Director of the UN Planetary Commission,” in the year 2000; a Mr. David Spangler [“Planetary Commission” aka: a very real and actual Alien Forces [aka: demons] welcoming Committee; just like the [demonic hybrid] Nephilim of Genesis 6]. Here you go boys and girls:

        [Quote]: “No one will enter the New World Order [aka: the One World Government], unless he or she makes a pledge to worship Lucifer; and no one will enter the New Age [aka: the One World Religion], unless he or she undergoes a Luciferian Initiation.” [End Quote].

        [Quote]: “In the New world Order, mankind will become a throw away. You will be allowed to exist, until you become a surplus to our [global] agenda. The world has a cancer, and that cancer is man.” [End Quote]

        It isn’t Rocket Science my dear friends of the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE; Jesus said it, become BORN AGAIN [immediately; like right now]; the hounds of Hell are already at the door, clawing to take over; that is how close we are to the Rapture. All we have to do is obey Him [Jesus], how hard is that? Jesus can’t condemn anyone for obeying Him, but He can surely do so if we don’t. Jesus will ask many so-called Christians at the Great White Throne judgment, “Why did you [bother to] call Me LORD, LORD, and yet, you didn’t do what I asked of you [to become born again]?”

        So repenting and becoming born again is a “personal choice of the human heart,” and God’s Grace then reciprocates “your choice” in the form of “His Salvation of your Soul,” which is A FREE Gift [from God], granted to ANYONE who will make that “personal choice”… ergo: it is not by “works.” And when we make “that personal choice,” we then believe God, and take Him at His Word, that we are indeed [eternally, not temporarily] Saved; so, we go on to the end, “Walking by Faith [in what God promised], and not by Sight [what we think we should do (works)].”

        Salvation is not JESUS + me and my works … it is JESUS + nothing else, other than to repent and believe; then, walk by faith in that belief. Works is not without merit though; if we follow Jesus, it is incumbent upon a follower to do things to “serve others,” but those works will never Save you; they only come into play as “those treasures stored up for ourselves in Heaven.” Someday, when we stand before King Jesus, to give an account of our lives, those works that you did [for], or [against] the LORD, that you thought no one else ever knew about, will be remembered. The “good and righteous works” will bring rewards to you [like precious metal, they will endure]; but the “bad and unrighteous works,” they will be burned up [like the hay and stubble]; you won’t be punished for them, you will simply receive no reward for those works.

        How do I become born again? I’m glad you asked; in the privacy of your own heart, with God; this is what the Father wants to hear from all the people that “choose” to become His children … “To them He [Jesus] granted the right to “become” children of God, to all those that believed.”

        HEAVENLY FATHER, I am a SINNER and in desperate need of a SAVIOR. I repent of all my sins. Please cleanse me with the Precious Blood of Your Son JESUS. At this moment, I proclaim with my mouth, and fully believe in my heart, that JESUS died on the Cross for my sins; rose from the dead, and is the ONLY WAY to enter Heaven. Please send Your HOLY SPIRIT to come live inside me from this day forward; and ask the HOLY SPIRIT to write MY NAME in the LAMB’s Book of Life. Father God and Jesus, please forgive me, and Save me. [The LAMB’s Book of Life – Revelation 20:11-15]

        James said: When the two witnesses are killed and lying in the streets of Jerusalem and are then resurrected, the time will be at hand. Until then, don’t bother looking up.

        My Response: Please don’t follow James’ lead here. The Bible says to “remain ALWAYS WAITING with great anticipation, for the appearing of the LORD [in the Clouds, at the Rapture]; LOOKING UP ALWAYS, for your Redemption [your “taking away, your recovery”] is at hand [is on the way]. Also, since it is the Antichrist that kills the two Prophets of God [Moses and Elijah] after they expose him [the Antichrist] for the “total fraud” that he is, after having called himself God in front of them, in their new Temple. That is when the “remnant” must immediately leave and run, to seek God’s [physical] protection in Petra, Jordan. So to those 144,000 Jews [then] in Petra [the “remnant”], the post-death resurrection of Moses [for the Law] and Elijah [for the Prophets], not Enoch; will be a very clear sign that the Jews that survive the mass attacks of the Antichrist’s UN-US-FEMA World Forces in the Valley of Jezreel in northern Israel, and also in Jerusalem; they can “then know” that they need only hang on for 1,290 more days [from that very day]; because it will be then, that their Messiah JESUS will come back in GREAT GLORY, with all of His “saints”… Old Testament, Bride church, and Tribulation “saints” … and with all of God’s Holy Angels. King Jesus will Save them [Israel] from Armageddon annihilation at His Second Coming. So, we the Bride church “saints” couldn’t possibly come back “with” Him [Jesus], unless He [Jesus] had first come “for” us and taken us away.

        In the Rapture, the Bride church goes UP, to meet the LORD in the AIR, and goes into the CLOUDS. At the Second Coming, the Bride church comes DOWN, with Jesus, THROUGH the clouds; two completely different events, 2,520 days (7 years) apart. The Bible was written FOR Jews, BY Jews [except Luke], and is ABOUT Jews; Gentiles are grafted in. So you have to look at the entire Bible, not from a western society standpoint; but, from a Jewish standpoint, or you will go off in error, and be terribly wrong; and that is fixed in your mind for you, when you [truly, not almost] become born again.

        The Rapture Event – 1st Thessalonians 4:16-18: Remember, everyone is created BY GOD, but not all people are children OF GOD. In the Gospel of John, Jesus Himself said: “Why is it that you cannot hear [nor understand] what I am saying? It is because you are not of My Father [God]; but rather, you are your father, the Devil.”

        So again, back to my previous comment; as Jesus said in John 3:1-7; “Unless you are born again, you cannot “see” the Kingdom of God.” The Greek word for “see” in that verse, is “eido”… which means to be able to “consider, be aware of, understand, perceive, be sure, or to be able to tell others;” in short, you will not be able to “correctly understand and interpret” God’s Holy Scriptures; so trying to explain them to others [if you are not born again] is futile; that is God saying that. That is how we can fully know Truth from error.

        ANY PERSON that is NOT born again [according to Jesus, who is God], is still of the Devils family, until such time as they make the “personal choice” to become born again; it is then that they are “granted the right” to become and be called, His children; and that has absolutely nothing to do with any water or infant baptism. Baptism is simply an “outward sign” to other Christian brothers and sisters around you, about an “inward choice” of the heart that you’ve just made with God. Infants can’t make those choices; God says that “your repentance” must be made with YOUR OWN mouth, and the belief must be acknowledged in YOUR OWN heart; others cannot repent or believe for you; so infant sponsored baptism is nothing more than getting the baby drenched, angry, and crying.

        Becoming born again is a Holy Spirit [Spiritual, not physical] “circumcision of the heart”… and it comes from above, from God. John the Baptist himself said; “I baptize you [now] with water, but there will come ONE [in the future; the Holy Spirit] that will baptized you with FIRE! That is when the Holy Spirit comes to live inside you; just like at Pentecost [the cloven flames]. It was after that, after the apostles became born again [with the Holy Spirit now inside them], that the apostle became forever FEARLESS. Before that Holy Spirit experience, they always ran scared, and hid from the Sanhedrin and the Romans. That is why God says, “If I be for you [if I God, am on your side], who can be against you [who in all creation could possibly fight against you and win]?”

        Remember the “thief on the cross” account? He had [also] been mocking Jesus [along with the other thief]; then, before dying, he finally realized his sinful error; he could clearly see [and understand] that Jesus was completely innocent; while he on the other hand, was totally guilty [just like us]. So he concluded that “if” Jesus was indeed who he claimed to be [God, the Messiah] that he too could be forgiven, just as He [Jesus] had just asked God the Father to please “forgive those that were crucifying and mocking Him there at the Cross [the Romans, the Pharisees, and some of the people]. It was then, that he turned to Jesus and said, “Jesus, please remember me when you enter into your Kingdom.” In others words, “Jesus, I was wrong, please forgive me and remember [Save] me.” That was acknowledging Jesus as LORD; as the ONLY and ONE PERSON, that COULD FORGIVE him of ALL his sins; and that He [Jesus] was indeed a KING, because only a KING has a Kingdom; and he [the thief] was going to place [by faith], his entire hope in who Jesus claimed to be, God’s True Messiah. And how did Jesus response to him? “Today [not tomorrow, not in the distance future, not someday] … but TODAY, you SHALL be with ME in Paradise. “Paradise” was once located in Eden; but later, after that FALL of Adam and Eve, it was moved [by God] from Eden, into Sheol [the place of both the righteous, and unrighteous dead].

        Sheol is a Jewish [Hebrew] term. Before the Cross of Christ, Sheol [the entire place of the dead] was divided into two separate compartments [in the belly of the earth] by a great chasm [the abyss]; it was a real and physical separation [per Luke 16:19-31]. In the Rich man and Lazarus account [which is not a parable], because a parable never uses a real name, like Lazarus. So this is an “actual account” that Jesus was using for us, about two very real people that once lived on earth. In the account, Jesus is pulling back the “curtain of eternity” for us momentarily; so that we can fully understand our own future destination “with [Lazarus/or, born again] and without [the Rich man/or, unborn again] His forgiveness.”

        Sheol, the [bad part/side] was called [in the Greek] “Hades” (and) “Torments,” and the [good part/side] was called “Paradise.” At the Ascension of Christ, 40 days after His resurrection, when Jesus went back into Heaven, to the Father’s House [and His], He emptied out the “Paradise” side of Sheol; and he took all of the Old Testament “saints” with Him to Heaven; in “that group” was [also] the forgiven “thief on the cross” … the very one that had been forgiven by Jesus just 43 days before, at His Crucifixion.

        Today, “Paradise” is located in Heaven; and all the New Testament “saints” [from Pentecost to the Rapture], will one day [soon], “rise up” together, to meet the LORD in the Air, in the Clouds. The dead [in Christ] will rise bodily from their graves; they will be joined [physically] to their souls that will come down from Heaven at the Rapture; then, those that are [in Christ, born again] and alive, will join them [body and soul] as a group, and will instantaneously be “caught up together” [Harpazo-ed], and both groups will rise up into the Air, into the Clouds, being translated into their eternal bodies as we rise, to meet the LORD. In the Clouds, the LORD will welcome us [His Bride], and He will prepare us [Spiritually and Glorified], to go meet His Father, in His House, in Heaven, and we will all be presented Holy and Righteous to the Father. So when people ask me, why are you so excited for the End of the Age to come? I say, “Are you nuts, I get to leave this dilapidated realm called earth, for the Glories of Heaven with my LORD and Savior … are you kidding me? Even so, come LORD Jesus!

        Then, the Tribulation period [7 years] will start. Those that die for the cause of Christ in those days, will be beheaded and immediately taken UP to Heaven, to “wait under the altar”… until the Second Coming. It is [then] that they will be joined to their eternal bodies, and all three groups of “saints” will come back with Jesus and all of God’s Holy Angels at the final battle of the Armageddon campaign, in Israel.

        So friends, brothers and sisters in Christ, warn others; there is no middle ground; you’re either ALL IN or you’re OUT. Please have a blessed day in the LORD, and warn as many friends and family members as possible; the evil roaring lion is already going about, seeking whom he might destroy. He is already here, just waiting for UN-US-FEMA Martial Law to start; so how much closer is your redemption then?

        PRAISE GOD!

        (Some didn’t become Born Again) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyzaJfRSLts&feature=related – (Protestant Church group)

        (Some didn’t become Born Again) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGIgewYdUOc&feature=related – (Catholic Church group)

        Please, don’t make the same mistake!!!

        Absolute Holiness, Grace, and Love Says: “Come home to Me, and I will care for you, and love you, for all eternity!” Please enjoy My Love Letter to you; with all My Love, your Dad and Father, Almighty God. — http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKmdIdQg3Ks

  3. I went to their site. I have some questions about “rapture ready”. Further down where I was reading it mentioned that they saw an 8 year old child in hell. My heart doesn’t want to believe this. When is the age of accountability?? I have a 7 year old that will be 8 in April. This is disturbing me a lot. He goes to his “dads” side of the family every other weekend and I can do nothing about what he does over there.

    How accurate and trustworthy is this Choo Thomas?

    • I am not sure yet, although I liked her actual message.

      I would normally think that an 8 year old is innocent enough to avoid hell.

      There have been some rare cases where young children are evil and kill people, but this is beyond my understanding.

      So I cannot answer your question.

    • Hi Lisa,

      I don’t believe that there is a set age for accountablity, but that it is something that is determined by God. As for children please see the following Scripture:

      “Now, I will speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command from the Lord. If a Christian man has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a Christian woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him. For the Christian wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not be holy, but now they are holy.

      Also, you mentioned seeing an 8 year old child in hell. No one is currently in hell, but Hades is full. The difference between hell and Hades is a common mistake made by many. Hades is a place within the heart of the earth where the lost dead go, like in the example of the rich man found in Luke 16:19. Hades is a temporary place of torment where those who are there at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ will be resurrected out and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment. These are those of whom the second death has power over. Hell, also called the lake of fire and the second death, is the final place of separation from God and a place of torment for those whose names have not been written in the book of life. The location of the lake of fire is not given in Scripture. In fact, at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, death and Hades are both thrown into the lake of fire (see Rev.20:14). The first to be received into the hell, that is, the lake of fire will be the beast and the false prophet (Rev.19:19-20)

      • Don,

        You are close to being correct.
        I totally agree with you, that If they say they saw a child of 8 in hell, then I have to reject or be very careful of anything they say.
        If they lie about this, then what else are they lying about.
        Their Bible and mine differs on that subject, so what Bible are they using..

        • johan

          see the answer I gave pattie.

          I only posted what was a good message about being ready.

          I was only acknowledging another site because I was using its material. If I did not reference them, it would be plagarism.

          I was not endorsing the site, only presenting what seemed to be a good message about being ready to meet the Lord.

          do not get side tracked.

          I hope you will just reflect on what is said on this message about readiness, and find some benefit in it.

          that was my whole intent.

          be blessed.

          • I “hear” what you say and accept it as such, have nothing to say about message, seems to be ok, only reflected on what was said about child in hell.

      • Hi Don, Thanks🙂 This helps

    • God can change and Save ANY heart, at ANY any age … and Jesus said “those that the Father has given Me, no one can snatch away from My hand” … I personally led my grandson at 7 years old, and my 59 year old brother [now deceased, and in Heaven] first through the story of Salvation; then, it’s significance, and finally, its purpose … when I was done, they both understood perfectly … and they both gave their lives [by faith] to Jesus, and acccepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Thus proving yet again, that the Power was not in my words, but rather it was God’s POWER in His [God’s] WORDS … and what He sets FREE, is FREE indeed! Please Copy and Paste my more lengthy explanation above … I hope this helps … Rob

  4. Hi Marianne,

    I have not spoken for a long while. I mostly read daily on you and the words. Yet here I read and understood with no explaination. You are right. No one can enter without confession nor without wrinkles. I learned one thing… There is NO shame in being honest in good or bad situation. Confess thru your true heart and soul. No ONE is perfect in God’s sight and everyone knows it… yet denying it. I find it very odd is… who ever loves God and would confess so freely with no rein… is the truth… Whoever loves God and will not confess who and what they are …then they are fake. That alone I cannot explain. It is just there in front of me as if I know where it came from.
    I pray for everyone else more than I pray for myself.. * small smile * did I ask anyone to pray for me when I know I am on a rough road? not at all. I accepted what the road lays that God puts before me to overcome in so many different way. My daughter is only 16 and soon to be 17 in two weeks yet she is pregnant. Am I thrilled? No. Ya see, I nearly almost unable to react to human being errors nor self anymore. I just walk throught without looking back and accept and knowledged that we ALL are human beings and WE do fail times and times again before God. BUT what is important is… God CAN READ our hearts with truth and HE KNOWS.

    I want to hug each of you and enourage you all to explore all possible ways that we do not ALWAYS notice in first place.. * laugh * We do sometimes are blind when God put something RIGHT FRONT of us all… Ah, He is ever so wise to keep us learn and learn MORE!! and LEARN to overcome things… Only ONE word I always stuck with is… Jesus said, ” Verily, Verily, have a good cheer for I have overcome this world.” So CAN ALL OF YOU!!🙂 That is all I CAN say, but beyond words is something I cannot do nor say is because no one would believe that I do understand.🙂 It is okay. I simply LOVE everyone yet does NOT approve their behavior upon themselves nor upon the others. I hope I am that clear… If not, then I apoogize for speaking so frankly.

    Sincerely, Tamera

    • oh Hi Tamera

      It is so good to hear from you.

      My heart goes out to you about your daughter. The enemy is attacking the saints by attacking their children.

      but God will make this situation into something good for you.

      You are right.

      Love and Truth of God is the answer.

    • Tamera
      Amazing. Thank you! Blessings

  5. Bible categorically states that it will certainly not be a secret catching away)

    Today many people are told in church that the rapture is about to take place, you know where it is written in the Bible that Christians will be caught up with Christ in the air.

    They are told it will be a secret catching away of God’s people before the wrath of God is poured out upon the ungodly.

    Well it is true that the Bible says that we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, but the Bible categorically states that it will certainly not be a secret catching away.

    For the Bible says that Christ will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the people who are not Christians will hide themselves in the caves of the mountains, “and said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb,” {Revelation 6 v16}.

    So you see, it will be a very bad day for those who have not given their hearts to Jesus, by repenting and accepting Christ Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the one and only true God. But to us, praise God, our redeemer will have come for us, for the Lord “shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect {Christians} from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another,” what a day that will be for us.

    • Hi cornishevanelist,

      You said:
      “For the Bible says that Christ will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the people who are not Christians will hide themselves in the caves of the mountains, “and said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb,” {Revelation 6 v16}.”

      You have mixed two different events. There is nothing that would link 1 Thes.4:16 with the 6th seal events. You’ll notice that there is nothing mentioned in the 6th seal as to anyone being caught up and there is also nothing that states that Jesus is returning to the earth, as this is just an assumption made by many. All it says it that, the sky is rolled back and everyone is seeing God sitting on his throne, which is why everyone is hiding and calling on the mountains and rocks to fall on them, but you will not find any reference to him descending to the earth nor will you find any mention of a catching away.

  6. i get the feeling that many people have a misconception about the rapture. the reason i say misconception is because what i hear people saying is fear based.

    there is nothing to fear in the rapture, the rapture happens individually, and it is beautiful! it is more like the picking of ripe fruit. God doesnt insist we face the rapture before we are ripe.

    so do your best, at all times and try to show compassion, even though before the experience of the rapture, you will only have a slight understanding of true compassion…

    God is Pure Compassion.

    He waits for us. when we are ready, and have become as perfect as we can be on our own, then through HIS GRACE he will liberate us from this world by taking us as His bride:) and you will blush at the sweet beauty of it all. other people wont understand what is happening to you, and your own mind might not understand it, but these things you will understand- the ecstacy of divine love, the beauty of true compassion, and that you yourself- yes you! are the Beloved God has been waiting for!

    strive to deserve Gods grace by shining and giving all the love you can give…love and fear do not hold the same vibration people… remember this

    God is Pure LOVE…He loves each and every one of you AND He has planted a precious seed of that love within you so that it may g r o w.

    when your attachments are 5 or less- one for each finger of your hand- you will be light enough to let go. the other hand should be holding onto God, and it will take both hands to hold on to God at the time of THE RAPTURE, so let your attachments be light ones that you can drop in Gods lap as a love offering

    victory to you all:)!!!

  7. Marianne

    Sorry, but I have to say I missed your point or I disagree with your words.

    You say: “Many focus on leaving this earth in rapture because they do not like it here.”

    This environment and place is not my home, my home is layed up in the New Jerusalem where my king lives and reigns. Where all of my loved ones have gone on. Where I spend my days, studing his living Word and in hoping in all that was done by Jesus Christ upon the cross that my faith fail not.

    We are told by God regarding your comment, that the saints are told not to love this world. If you love this world the love of God is not in you.

    God has given his bride everything required to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. The true bride of Christ that will enter in is not a whore or foolish virgin. She has trimmed her lamps. She has more than enough light to go home as she enters the thrown room of the most high continually. She does not drink from the cup of the world with one hand and with the other hand the cup of heaven. You must choose this day who you will serve. No man can have two masters, he will love one and hate the other.

    The wise have trimmed their lamps and made all of their preparations to go. It is really no different than the Jewish children when they went to make the exile out of Eygypt, they put the blood on the door post. She has made ready for her trip, she is not full of leavening as it can not enter in. Leavening brings the enemy and makes us raise up in pride instead of being humble and ready.

    The wise virgin has been born of the water and the spirit, she has taken the name of her king and soon to be groom. She has made herself ready, cleaning her robes and washing them in the blood of the lamb. She is sotless without and is without blemish and her life here is in sojourning waiting to go home. Her suffering for her name and being under the subjection of the king makes her long for him and his righteousness as the world is full of corruption. She saviors the things of the Lord and he is upon her mind everyday, she has bore the full burdens of satan the tempter in trials and tribulation. She has bore the full sun of the day to be sure her seed is not dried up, or that her faith hath not withered away. She has made ready to go and worship at the masters feet. She ensures that her ears do not partake of the fruit of this world as it is poison which tries to destroy the word of God. She has given up family where needed for her salvation, she has sepaated from friends who live a life of the unclean and she has killed and purged away all lust and evil speaking, and vain babblings.

    She has made ready as her king will not marry a bride who is not virgin, he will not wait for her to get ready when he comes, she must be standing ready and ready at any second go. There will be none to speak a wicked word against her in judgement.

    The preparation of her wedding day are made and it waits only for the enterance of the groom and his bride. She is full of excitement for her life will now begin, her fullness to live in the shadows of her love is soon at the days end.

    Yes, Yes, Yes she is ready to leave a world that kills babies and calls it convience, she is ready to leave a place where all have made themselves Gods, she is ready to leave a place where men have decidedd to change the Holy word and call my God , as if he is something common. Oh they hope he delays she is made ready, she hopes he hurries as she is in love with him, he has cared for her brought her out of her every difficulty and her mind is stayed upon him, forget TV and entertainment he is her life, she eats his words as people eat food, she chews upon it knowing that her bones in preparation of her new home will be nourished from it and she will never forget that he brought her out of the mirely clay, he broke her, he molded her, he suffered her growing up in preparation to be a bride with out spot, wrinkle, or blemish as her every trial and tribulation in the fire he saw to her as a victor, her groom adores her and he has made ready for her coming for the first day they are together. Yes, she pants after him like a baby doe after water.
    She has made herself thru him an innocent cleansed and ready.

    She has cleansed herself, her garments and wedding gown are spotfree, she is adorned as a bride should be. She is a virgin and has the rights of white. Her preparation included being adorned properly, that all would know her while she wait for him. So she made haste after repenting and seeking after him and was born of the water a second time with a new life. Without that life she could not become his wife. She has had her spritual bath in the name of Jesus Christ.

    By this all in the spiritual realm know who she is. Her Baptism gave her his name, it gave her a death to the old and when coming up out of the water the new entered in, his spirit decended upon her and entered in, His spirit was given as an endowment while she wait a while for his coming. She knows she can not allow herself to be distracted of this world, as he will not marry a whore, she knows alittle folly and socializing in the wrong groups can make her apothacacry ointment stink. Hers is to have the onintment that is of a chaste bride who keep herself for the one she loves. She counts the days, the hours and the seconds marking down the signpost of his coming. Her heart flutters when she thinks a sound of his chariot has been heard, and when it has not, she goes back to her work as his soon to be wife, in her waiting.

    She knows that the world is not of understanding and that they think he is delayed but she knows that he is coming and he is not delayed. So she spends her time in prayer and in sending first her loving praises and songs of psalms to him before she petition him for others that the wedding supper be made complete and nothing missing, She bares the fruit of a saint, she has peace becaue her mind is stayed upon him not man, her Joy is in the waiting for his coming and working for the days are short, so in patience she is a faithful withness to Jesus Christ, the living Word and she works in charity for the needy and spends her time in prayer praying for the afflicted and oppressed, she is longsuffering as she waits on him as she has a desire not to tarnish his image or dare bring a reproach upon his name, that any should speak evil of him or his kingdom, her kindness to all brother and sisters is known by her virtues as she waits on her groom, she helps the shepherd guide the lost back to the sheepfold, her goodness is befitting of her kings price, she possess the light of him as he is in her and she shares the living Word of his light with others, her hope in him is that they will find his truth in the Word, and from it that they will go on the road of the narrow pathway where his life waits to accompany them on their jorney.

    For her all that is missing is her King, as all things have been made ready, as the plans that have been written in a Holy Book fitting of the Bride and Groom of Heavens wedding supper feast.–No this world is not my home., I long to go where my king, master, soon to be husband controls a world that has no big “I ‘s” or little “U ‘s”, a place where babies never die and where people have love for one another that is not of sensuality of burning but of the fire of God in them to worship with him, where a soul has total Surrender and Joy.

  8. Dru

    Here is what really ticks me off more than anything. I wrote something in the above email that was deleted as the thing was published. How is that done, what happen to freedom of the speech? We live in another mans world, however it is suppose to be ours. This man should have no rights, because he is alien.

    If you Read the paragraph above where it says; “yes, yes, yes” and go to the part that says, “the Holy word and called my God (allaha), as if he was something common” has been deleted?

    We will see if it appears this time, as I had around the word for effect of my discust against the thing that were cone to the Bible.

    Sorry I just had to tell someone about how my word was deleted and now I am wondering if Marianne knows. Maybe she has some frame work that keeps people from dragging some false doctrines to the sight or something. I hope she reads this so I can have an understanding of what is going on, and if another right has been taken away under the czar of the internet in washington.

    The Holy word is walked on like it is nothing, the constitution torn down and rewritten as the days go on, today freedom of the speech disappeared before my eyes. Am I ready to get out of this place?

    I hear the bad news, most likley what Bolton spoke of is about going to war with Iran and giving Israel the nod to go ahead. No change will happen with this type of a war and will it be the deadly wound spoken of in the Bible? Are the new kings in the middle east those of Revelaitions that receive power for one hour?

    I wonder how many will want to go sooner, when this place looks like a war zone. I understand that under the quran if you lie, the bigger the lie the greater the reward bonus is for you in Heaven. So if you are lied to by any who believe in satan as God under a different name, you will know you can not believe a word out of his mouth nor out of the mouth of the one who is in the faith of the other occult. If it is not founded in God and does not have Jesus Christ at the head it is a cult, as the people are into idolatry and practicing witchcraft.

    “Word”, peace be with you, we are moving closer and closer to scary times and his return. I am going to keep an eye out for the saints ark/boats I saw in my dream about a year and half ago. Here I first thought the dreams was only to reveal that he was a distrutive carpentar ant. Which he has been, first the bible, then the constitution, the financial system, then the constitution again, now our freedoms?

    Be blessed

    • Here is how I see the middle east. Theoretically of course.
      10 kingdoms
      1. Egypt
      2. Syria
      3. Iran
      4. Turkey
      5. Lybia
      6. Yemen
      7. Sudan
      8. Saudi Arabia/ emirates
      9. Iraq
      10. Lebanon

      11th little horn King of Tyre, will replace three, probably Syria, Turkey, and Iraq. These will form the base of his kingdom. The others will willfully, or via coercian give control to this person, and the Caliphate will be restored. Before this happens, however, Their will be a War which will increase the size of Israel From the Euphrates to the brook of egypt (No more Gaza/Palestinian state), and into parts of Jordan and Saudi arabia (Moab, Edom, and Ammon). This war will involve only the nations surrounding Israel, (or possibly shiites only??), but not the larger ones which are further away. This is the restoration of Israel to the size as promised in the old testament covenents. If you look on a map of Solomons kingdom, Tyre was never part of it. There is a strip of Land that runs along the coast.
      How i see it playing out is that the apparent defeat in this first War will involve Turkey, assuming control of What is left of tyre/Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq. Since Lebanon has the most to lose, its leader, The “King of Tyre” will be given kingship. Thus babylon is restored.
      Now We have the “King of the North”, Egypt, Lybia, Sudan Saudi arabian peninsula= King of the south, and Iran/Persia, as king of the east, With Israel smack dab in the middle of them.
      What must happen for all of this to occur? Well we must have the ouster of Western and Eastern backed dictators, which is occurring as we speak (Arab Spring……) This includes 1.Saudi king and 2.U.S. backed Iraqui Government. And here is the tricky part, 3.This King of Tyre figure, will be a secular person (Not worship the god of his fathers), who will also assume control of the U.N. To have global reach, Thus making most of the world under his control. This is a lot to happen in a year, if this Middle east Ac theory holds up.

      Or is this the deception that leads up to a much larger World Power and Ac figure taking the reigns??????????????? Then Babylon would be……The west, and North?

      The more Wars and rumors of Wars there are, the more the World will be Looking for a “Mighty Man” to rescue them.

      Please, to all who read this, I need your thoughts. Not just the typical Language correction/ and denominational interpretation, but Out of the box theoretical thinking. (disclaimer: No harm or Mockery was intended toward any commentators I have had contact with in that might Always bring “Grammer and language” into our discussions If you know what I mean.) Let the Holy Spirit move you, As It did me just now, who started to answer a question Pattie had which led to this. I have not proofread or confirmed any of what I wrote so if you see mistakes let me know. Remember this is the Hypothesis, Not the final report. Time to hit the sack.

      Sorry Pattie I will have to get to your other questions tomorrow as it is getting late.

      • dru,

        The 10 kingdoms are European kingdoms that existed 100 or years ago, the three that was ousted were three kingdoms that did not accepted the rule of the then Roman Catholic Church, they were all destroyed by the then Pope.
        Look at the upcoming of the Roman Catholic Church these days and their teachings like the priests and the Pope are the replacement of God on earth and who they forgive will be forgiven and whom they don’t forgive will retain their sin, God has no say in the mater He has to accept their verdict. This is according to their on writings.

        The Pope is Gods replacement on earth, as you will see that he is called the most holy Pope, he can change times and laws as he wills. If you doubt what I say then to prove it they changed the Sabbath from Saturday, which is the seventh day of the week, to Sunday the first day of the week, also who changed our year system from 360 to 365 and a quarter day?

        Sunday was the day the old heathens used to worship their god Ra the sun god, from there the name Sunday. What did God say, didn’t he say that we must keep the seventh day (Saturday or did he say that we can choose any day for that purpose?) as a most holy rest day????

        We all know and agree that only God and Jesus is Most Holy, no man is without sin and therefore all doomed to destruction except, you accept Jesus as your Saviour and confess your sin not to man but to God..

        The Roman Catholic faith is going to be the “One World Governments” faith and all who do not adhere to them will be killed like they did so many times in the past as with the last, the time of the “French Revolution” that forced many Protestants to flee to USA and RSA and some other countries in the word to save their lives.

        They even had a medallion pressed to commemorate the 30,000
        protestants that was slaughtered by them “the most holy roman catholic church”.

        Still wondering about the mark of the beast??

        One day, I will do a complete study of it, that I will post, but it will take up many pages.

        Do a bit of home work and then you will see for yourself.

        • Johan
          Thank you for your time. I know the catholic church, and in particular the Pope will have a role, But I think it will be more as the False Prophet(Pope), and Woman(Religion) that rides the beast. Rev.17:16 “The ten horns you saw, they and the beast will hate the Prostitute , They will make her desolate and naked, devour her flesh and burn her flesh up with fire,”
          Rev. 13: 13 also says that the dragon, the beast (antichrist) and the false prophet are three distinct people, with three demons inhabiting them.
          The Beast could be any King that has the backing of the false prophet. The real question is who is the dragon, as this man will be posessed by a demon as well? I see this as the King of Tyre. Wouldn’t you marvel if the leader of the Muslim Caliphate gave his Authority to the Pope backed U.N. chief?

          I am not here to argue the “sunday worship is the mark of the beast theory”. This is the denominational interpretation that I am trying to avoid getting into. I have done it numerous times before on this site, so I will not here. It is a topic that only brings division, Suffice it to say, “My faith has found a resting Place, Not in device nor creed,” as the old hymn puts it. We are living in the day of preparation for the GREAT Sabbath (Millenial reign), As such we have twice the amount of work to do for that Sabbath. I belong to Jesus, and every day of my life is his. He will give me rest in the Millenium, right now there are people in need of healing, and sheep to feed.

          God bless.

      • hi dru

        I think you mean sunni, not shiite. Shia muslims are only about 10-15% of Islam.

        Interestingly enough, Shia majority countries: Iran, Iraq, Azerbaijan, and Bahrain.

        Bahrain is only a tiny island :
        Area: 727 sq. km. (274 sq. mi.); approximately four times the size of Washington, DC. Bahrain is an archipelago of 36 islands located off the eastern coast of Saudi Arabia

        So that leaves only 3 Shia countries that could be replaced by a Sunni leader of Tyre, who comes to take leadership over the entire Sunni population and the entire middle east, and east.

        I do not see how the Sunni leader would give Israel more land, and remove the Palestinians. That seems contradictory to logic, since he wants Israel destroyed.

        Also, notice you first said Turkey would be replaced, then later, then later you seem to say it will take over 3 countries. that is a bit confusing. what did you mean?

        • Marianne
          my theory is that the whole point of this first war will primarily involve the shiite muslims. There really are only two nations in the Muslim World, Sunni and Shiite (and they do not always get along). Unless you count the Suufi (Spelling) Muslims. Do not forget that palestine is also Shia, As is Yemen (About 50/50 split), and there are shia living in most muslim countries.

          The defeat in the war will lead to the treaty which will Make Israel larger, as most Shia live to the east/north of Israel. Notice they will only take land to the brook of Egypt, which is largely desert in the Sinai peninsula, But will take large swaths of Lebanon and Syria.

          It was 2:30 at night when I wrote this so forgive me if there are errors.
          I was aroused from an early slumber! Lebanon, Syria, Turkey Unite under King of Tyre (Three kings under one new king). Iraq, which is majority Shia, will be weekened, probably losing control of large parts of it to the “King of the North” (Curdish areas,Sunni areas), what is left will unite with Iran (southern parts of Iraq, to form the “king of the east” which will be the only shia area left.

          The prophecy involving ten kings ruling for an hour, and then giving authority to the beast is a global event, and different from this. King of Tyre=dragon, not the beast. Though this deception will appear to be beast. Three kings being ousted by a little horn. In the global event Europe is the “little horn”, and its leader the beast.

          Remember, I am just brainstorming here.

          • Dru

            Sorry, you still have me confused.

            Who is fighting in the shiite war, and what does that have to do with Israel getting more land?

            If the land to the north becomes Israeli, why is Lebanon still there?

            • Marianne,
              I think I answered your first two questions somewhat in the post to pattie below. If you find a map of Solomon’s kingdom, you will see that he never controlled the coastlands, a narrow strip, from Tyre/Sidon area, up to Hammath. But most of what is now Lebanon was under Solomon,s control.

              Shiites, are fighting in the shiite War. This will usher in the covenent to restore Israel made by the antichrist.

    • pattie

      I have no knowledge of a message by you that was deleted.

      I have never deleted any of your messages.

      What message are you talking about?

      Maybe it is in spam. Did you post a link? sometimes if it has a link the system spams it.

      Also, I periodically delete spam, so I can look there, and see if I can find it before deleting.

  9. Lisa

    Regarding your little boy. Please look at Luke 18:16-17, it speaks of man not being able to enter into Heaven unless he be as a child. This means the innocents that they think no evil. Children don’t hate or think evil of any, until they reach accountability.

    Years in the past people use to say around the age of 12 as that was about the time that a childs eyes are openned to right and wrong. But today we live in a world that is cruel and children due to technology are much brighter but does that mean that their precious little minds are able to understand the difference between right and wrong? I would not personally think so.

    I am going to go to this site MARIANNE posted and see what else this man is speaking. If it does not line up with the word of God then it should be discounted. You should not let your heart be troubled over a thing you can do nothing over. But you can pray that the Lord will keep his constant protection over him while he is away from you. Also if you have not taken him to church and had him dedicated to God, it is a good idea. This keeps the Fathers watchful eye on him.

    I also would call your mind to what Paul said in Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my Mothers womb, and called me by his grace.

    So the thing you should do is as the word says when he is with you train him up in the way that he should go and he will never depart the faith.

    I hope this helped.

    • hi pattie

      I agree with you about children.

      But understand I posted what was a good message about being ready, and since I got it from somewhere else, I had to cite a reference.

      I was not endorsing the reference.

      I was presenting the message only.

      I do not want people to get side tracked, and get concerned about some detail over on another site.

      I want people to think about being free from “wrinkles (sin, attachment to the world) and purify themselves, making themselves ready to meet the Lord.

    • Hi Pattie
      He was dedicated to God when he was 8 or 9 months old. I was baptized when I was pregnant with him. Not sure if that is okay or not.

      He has not chosen to baptize yet. We used to go to church a lot, but left once things became more about the money and public view. I just found another church that both children are going to. My 7 year old goes to his dads every other weekend and does not get to go to church on these days. But he does go to CERT on Thursdays.

      (YES, I did things very backwards and not okay. I laid a nasty foundation for them and they now have to reap it as well. In shame I write this. I am trying to right the wrongs, but The LORD has to help me with this. I pray that He does.)

      Training my children up to be “wrinkle free” and less attachment to the worldly things is going to be extremely hard. If I would have truly known what I was doing in the past, I wouldn’t have done what I did. (Who doesn’t think that….) How would I help teach my children this? To keep on from the “now” moment and teach them that how I started our lives was wrong? They are going to ask questions…

      Right at this moment my heart is broken.

  10. Hi Don, this is reponse to your first comment:

    Your quote…. Observing the law will kill you! ……..

    Really? But American have flung the Law behind and put Freedom ahead – So why is America dying? Think about that!
    To Christians the TORAH means law – whereas there are several good meanings to this beautiful word. I have followed the Torah for years but I’m still alive and very much blessed.

    Your quote…. The law only made us conscious of sin….

    Isn’t is good that we are reminded of our sins so that we can repent and return to YAHWEH? Otherwise, we would be sausage on satan’s pitchfork to be grilled for eternity.

    Your quote…. Reread Galatians, Romans and Hebrews for in there you find that the law has been made obsolete…..

    No, the Law is NOT made obsolete – that is a downright lie from the pit of hell!

    Your quote …. Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly and then nailed it to the cross….

    Jesus fulfilled what He was sent to do. He did not nail the law to the cross that is another lie from hell. The Law is TORAH, the WORD, YESHUA(SALVATION), How can He make Himself obsolete. Then it means we don’t have a Savior – So dump your Bible like they dumped the TEN COMMANDMENTS or rip off the Old Covenant (OT) from it.
    You are too focused on Paul. I hope you know that James (the brother of Jesus) had a big problem with Paul for his controversial and confusing teachings. Even the Israelites were fedup with him and complained to James and Peter. James was cognizant of him and had his eye on Paul.

    So I will continue to follow Yeshua and keep His Laws and Commandments that is a joy to my heart for I do it with love for Him. You can go follow Paul until you know where you are heading… hope it won’t be too late then.

    • Jes,
      You have it spot on, tell them, these people who don’t want to read the Bible and think for themselves. Who believes all kinds of lies dished up by them by the so called pastors, priests or what ever they want to call themselves.

    • Jes,

      I agree with what you are saying. Those who have held to the understanding that Yahshua and the Torah are one, are the early fruit that Yahshua did not find at the fig tree, because it was not yet the time for the fruit to be present. Both on the Jewish side and the Chistian side, will come those who understand what Yah is doing in these last days (that we are all one in Messiah and keeping the commandments) and will spread the word and be instrumental in bringing in the harvest which is yet to come. Keep doing the good work with patience and Yah will bring in the harvest in due season.

      Be Blessed My Brother

    • Really Jes,

      “Colossians 2:13-17
      When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, HAVING CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Food law, Feasts and holy days)”

      • Hi dmcal
        First of all do you know what the cross means? This word is in the OT that you say is obsolete.

        Re. Having canceled the written code…
        …. Are you trying to tell me again that the Old Covenant (OT) was nailed to the cross and so it was made obsolete? I can only shake my head in disbelief that you just don’t get it … So there’s no point in me me wasting my precious time in explaining what the Torah which you call law really means.

        Re. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Food law, Feasts and holy days)”
        …. Well, have fun, eat pork and the other forbidden foods – if you don’t die a physical death with these foods, then you will die a spiritual death. – Contrary to the quote above is what the Creator Himself has written: [[ Lev.7-And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8-You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you. The rest are here… http://niv.scripturetext.com/leviticus/11-7.htm
        Isaiah:66:17-They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one in the midst; that eat swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall perish together, saith Jehovah. ]]
        People around the world including the US are eating snakes, rats, Aligators, crocodile, etc… It’s one’s choice between permissible and forbidden foods.

        Re: …. religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Food law, Feasts and holy days)”
        You don’t follow these signs and days – you miss the most important times … So have it your way!!
        I don’t want to waste my time on debating on these things or Paul anymore so this is my last response to you.
        Bye!

  11. Hi Don, this is in response to your second comment.
    Re…….“My point was and is is that, keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation”……
    Me:….Well, don’t you think that it’s ‘disobedience to YAHWEH’ when He Himself rested on the Seventh-Day after working the six days of creation? Was He exhausted or Did He rest in order for mankind to follow His example? Something for you to ponder on.
    Re……This is the point that Paul was making because of those who were trying to have people circumcised and obeying the law of Moses when he said, “One man considers one day more sacred that another; and other man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.”……
    Me:….The commandment of Circumcision has a specific spiritual and scientific reason. Moses was circumcised at the age of 80. YAHWEH is the Almighty Creator and He makes the rules NOT man and HE does not do anything without a valid reason. If YAHWEH speaks about circumcision to be done, then so be it, for it is His command. It is always good to check Scriptures out by doing deeper Hebraic study than to just blurt out something according to your own understanding. The TORAH is HEBREW WRITINGS that was given in the hands of an ISRAELITE(MOSES) and not Christian(gentile) writings given to a Christian.
    To me Paul himself is confusion let alone his teachings. I find almost every Christian quoting Paul’s writings mainly Romans, Ephesians… and they hardly quote the first five books or even the prophets. YAHWEH has precise timings for everything. He is a very Sophisticated Majestic Set-Apart Divine Being, Christians don’t understand Him but take Him for granted. No wonder every man thinks in his own terms and then gets himself into bad situations.
    Re…… If you pick a day to worship God, then this is good. If you consider every day alike and you worship God, then this good also….
    Me….. We cannot pick and choose which day we want to worship YAHWEH. We have to worship Him every day 3 x day that is what YESHUA did … in every way we have to follow Him. BTW there are specific prayers for specific times apart from other prayers you may pray. Christians will never know this unless they make an effort to learn.
    Re…… We are not under the law to observe feasts, food laws or holy days. As being apart of the church we are not required to observe Jewish customs. Jesus nailed the law to the cross as completed and is now obsolete. We follow in the new way, we follow Christ and are lead by his Spirit. Where there is no law there is no transgression…….
    Me….. Well we all are instructed to follow the feasts and holy days, if we don’t, we are disobeying the Creator. Also by not following the feasts, you will never know the day and time of the Savior’s coming. [[Matt.24:36/Mark 13:32.. “No one knows when that day or hour will come. Even the angels in heaven and the Son don’t know. Only the Father knows.]] Christians always argue on that Scripture but actually the understanding is clearly given in the Torah. [[Deuteronomy 4:29-YAHWEH said “But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou shalt seek him with all thy heart, and with all thy soul”]] But Christians don’t seek Him through deep TORAH study that’s the reason they will never know”.
    Re…… Food Laws….
    Me…… Again that is Paul’s confusion. The Dietary Laws are to be followed strictly for our own health and wellbeing, for our body is the temple of the living YAHWEH. When you don’t follow the Dietary Instructions you get what is happening in America now – Every second person has obesity, diabetes, cancer, Tinea, HPV, Heart, Kidney problems and other serious diseases. Forbidden foods are ‘Scavenger Foods’ that carry deadly bacteria. The punishment for this is painful ‘physical death’ as well as ‘spiritual death’. Breaking any commandment or law is sin therefore a ‘spiritual death’.
    Re…. As being apart of the church we are not required to observe Jewish customs……
    Me…. The ‘church’ can never interpret the TORAH the teachings are controversial, that’s why people argue & debate when Scriptures are explained to them in the Hebraic perspective. They think they know better.
    If you love Yeshua(Jesus) you have to do what He did. Follow in His ways. Become a Proselyte/Natsarim(Not Christian) and become Set-Apart, for Yeshua Himself is the Set-Apart one. In every way we must be like Him. This for you will be hard being American and a Christian but you gotta do it, if you want to be with Him in eternity.
    Re…. “Jesus nailed the law to the cross as completed and is now obsolete” …..
    Me…. Really? Is that why America threw the TEN COMMANDMENTS into the dumps? Look how the adversary has come and settled in comfortably now dominating the Americans. I don’t have to go into details but look around at all the troubles that have come upon America. When YAHWEH is thrown out of our lives or land there are severe consequences to be paid for it. YAHWEH takes away everything good that belonged to Him – Then satan moves in and starts destroying for he comes to kill, steal and destroy. America is going burn like an inferno … Check out the prophecies in Zacharia, Joel, Ezekiel, Daniel, Isaiah, Zephaniah, Obadiah.
    Re….. We follow in the new way, we follow Christ and are lead by his Spirit….
    Me….. This sounds so much like The New Age Movement teachings. Think about it If Yeshua had changed anything, wouldn’t He have disobeyed His father and set a bad example for us all?

    • Jes,

      Spot on again.

      Re…….“My point was and is is that, keeping the Sabbath is not required for salvation”……
      Me:….Well, don’t you think that it’s ‘disobedience to YAHWEH’ when He Himself rested on the Seventh-Day after working the six days of creation? Was He exhausted or Did He rest in order for mankind to follow His example? Something for you to ponder on.

    • Reject Paul and you REJECT the one who chose him. Pure and simple!!!!!!
      .

      • Thank you Ricard. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

      • Richard,
        Re. Reject Paul and you REJECT the one who chose him. Pure and simple!!!!!!
        Give me one scripture that says that !! Whether you like it or not, it’s NO, you reject YESHUA the Savior who Himself is the TORAH and you are toast… period. YESHUA is most important than Paul.

        • Give me one scripture to support your denigration of Paul whom was
          appointed by our Saviour !!

          • There plenty,

            If you can’t give me a scripture that I asked for then stop fighting and do your own research.

            I have plenty of info but I am not going to waste my knowledge with sarcastic, and argumentative people.

            O, and I take back that I called you friend. It’s null and void now🙂
            This is my last response to you as well.

            Bye.

  12. Hi Don,
    ~~~ Once again I just wanted to say that – I do not follow Paul, he was a Pharisee and followed the Talmud. I follow Yeshua(Jesus) for He Himself wrote TORAH and taught the TORAH and not Talmud. Talmud teachings differ greatly to that of the Torah teaching… Please check it out for yourself.
    ~~~ Secondly, the word Christian is a corrupted Greek translation. A non-Israelite who gave his/her life to Yeshua totally converted to the Torah and kept all the laws and commandments of YAHWEH. These folks were called Proselytes or Natsarim…NOT CHRISTIAN. The word Christian originated from “Christos”(in Greek), was introduced by the Romans after the resurrection of Yeshua(Jesus). Christianity seem to echo numerous tenets of the cult of Mithras (a Persian deity who’s CULT became the most popular religion in the Roman empire) which had existed for hundreds of years before the birth of Yeshua(Jesus). Jesus did not call anyone to be a Christian, he told Israelites & Gentiles to follow HIM(The TORAH*), and be HIS disciple. Too many people are stuck on being Christians, or like the definition, Christ-like. *TORAH means the WORD, YESHUA, SALVATION, ALEF-TAV(BEGININING & THE END), INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO LIVE OUR LIVES, APPOINTMENTS and much more than just LAWS …. Yeshua never abolished the LAWS rather HE fulfilled them. Majority of Christians don’t mind adhering to the Ten Commandments (even though they don’t bother to keep even the Fourth Commandment concerning the seventh-day Saturday Sabbath according to the Hebrew Calendar) which are very much part of Torah, as well. Man has always liked to “pick and choose” when it comes to YAHWEH’s Word, but it’s time to realize that the seventh-day Sabbath command, along with His seven Biblical feasts were NEVER abolished – on the cross, or anywhere else! There were parts of TORAH that YAHWEH said would endure FOREVER – and the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Biblical Feasts are among them…. The Seven Feast including the weekly Shabbats/Sabbaths are a shadow of what is to come finally. Christians who don’t follow TORAH and go by their own understanding of their KJV Bible will be like the five virgins who missed the bridegroom for not bringing that extra oil. Bottom line: Christianity is a CULT and a part of Catholicism… Check it out for yourself.

    • Jes,

      Your Hot today, tell them!!!!!!

    • Hi Jes,

      I’m sorry to here that you don’t consider the letters that Paul wrote as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul was selected specifically by the Lord as an apostl to the Gentiles and all that Paul has written was given to him by revelations and visions by the Lord. If you don’t recognize his writings as the word of God, then you fall under the same status as those mentioned by Peter in the Scripture below:

      “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.”
      (2 Pet.3:14-16)

      First, I’d like you to take notice that Peter referred to Paul as “Our dear brother.” Second, he referred to his letters as “the wisdom that God gave him.” And third, Peter referred to Paul’s letters as Scripture when he said: “His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.” And lastly, by not acknowledging Paul’s writings as the word of God you become one of those ignorant people who are unstable and distort the Scriptures and that to your own destruction.

      Since Peter recognized Paul’s writings as the wisdom that God gave to him and therefore as Scripture, then you would have dismiss peter as an apostle of Christ as well.

      I hope that you will repent and confess this, for as long as you remain in this state you are denying the word of God.

      • Hi dmcal,
        You say: … I’m sorry to here that you don’t consider the letters that Paul wrote as inspired by the Holy Spirit….
        I say….. The Twelve Talmidim(Apostles) minus Saul/Paul were specifically and personally chosen by Yeshua Himself. He trained them for three years all through His entire Ministry. Where was Paul at that time? Making tents in Tarsus or in a Talmudic Yeshiva (School)? Talmudic teachings are Holy Spirit inspired? He was a terrible Pharisee who killed Steven and persecuted people who followed Yeshua’s teachings.
        You say…. Paul was selected specifically by the Lord as an apostl to the Gentiles and all that Paul has written was given to him by revelations and visions by the Lord….
        I say…..There’s no record of how he was appointed an Apostle… and a 13th Apostle? Paul comes suddenly into the picture and Matathias disappears in thin air? Paul claimed he had a vision but there’s no record of his revelations. The gentiles were more attracted to the Torah teaching by the 12 Apostles rather than Paul’s teachings of confusion. Paul is a self-proclaimed apostle. He had no witnesses that came up in person to say that what happened to him was true.
        You say….. If you don’t recognize his writings as the word of God, then you fall under the same status ….. to their own destruction.” (2 Pet.3:14-16).
        I say….Before making such statements and misusing scriptures to back up your statements you must first ask yourself and do some research on “Who were the Pharisees”? What happened to them after the resurrection of Yeshua? Where did they go? Do they have descendants? And who are they today? You are right when you talk about ignorant people – THEY DON’T DO RESEARCH but instantly take up their sledge-hammer and start hammering others who are know the real history🙂 !!
        You say…. First, I’d like you to take notice that Peter referred to Paul as “Our dear brother.” …………… which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures.”
        I say…… I repeat ignorant people –DON’T DO RESEARCH but instantly take up their sledge-hammer to start hammering others who know the history. I believe the writings in the Epistles were written by the 12 Talmidim(Yeshua’s 12 Apostles) but were distorted by Paul for he was a friend of the Romans. Paul is a False Prophet – many see that among true Christians and Orthodox & Messianic Jews and many don’t … you don’t. Paul is responsible for all the confusion caused between Proselytes/Natsarim. He is the one who brought in the word “Christian” & “Church” when he started to preach. The Apostles disliked him and Paul and James and Peter had arguments but later Peter gave in just to calm things down thereby becoming the bridge between James and Paul. Dig before you bring your hammer down to slam – besides, you might hurt your own toes.
        You say….. And lastly, by not acknowledging Paul’s writings as the word of God you become one of those ignorant people …………
        I say ….. Again I refuse to follow Talmudic writings. It is Paul who distorted the scriptures and you have fallen into that trap of lies. Choose this day who will serve – YESHUA the SALVATION or Saul/Paul the Confuser.
        You say…. I hope that you will repent and confess this, ………..
        I say….. Repent? I think you are the one who should be repenting for emphasizing more on Paul’s Talmudic teachings rather than the Torah teaching of Yeshua the Creator and Savior of this world.

        • Missed something here.

          What did Paul say that was wrong?

        • I don’t believe that Paul is wrong in what he wrote. What I do believe is that most on both sides don’t truly understand what he was trying to convey. Paul was Torah observant while he was ministering to the Gentiles. Not only that, but it is my understanding that the believing Jews and Gentiles worshipped together. Through poor translations and convenient interpretations, it does seem on the surface that Paul is denying the Torah. But when you dig into it, you will find that it is not that way. That is why it is said that much of what Paul had to say was hard to understand. There is only one Elohim and He only has one people, that includes both Jew and Gentile. Our inability to deal with that does not nullify what He is doing, but rather puts us (both Jew and Gentile) at odds with Him. Even many of the Messianic Jews are not very fond of Torah keeping Gentiles; the Christian Church on the other hand looks at the Torah keeping Jews as an ancient relic, seeing Gentiles who have Yahshua as their Messiah and keep the commandments as somehow diminishing the power of the blood of Messiah to save. Until His people gain some widsom and understanding into what Yah is doing here, we are destined for this kind of back and forth. Maybe this is all part of the process to get His word out. But the cold hard truth is, there is nothing that is said in the NT that is basically not said in the OT; in other words, there is nothing new in the NT and there is nothing old in the OT. Both agree, are one, and relevant. It is people who divide His Word to fit there tradtions and understanding that is the problem. We have to have eyes that see and ears that hear to understand these things. Seems like John used those words in the book Revelations.

          Be Blessed

        • Hello Jes and all,

          In this post I will simply respond to what you have written with “You said” and “Rebut”:

          You said:
          “I say….. The Twelve Talmidim(Apostles) minus Saul/Paul were specifically and personally chosen by Yeshua Himself. He trained them for three years all through His entire Ministry. Where was Paul at that time? Making tents in Tarsus or in a Talmudic Yeshiva (School)? Talmudic teachings are Holy Spirit inspired? He was a terrible Pharisee who killed Steven and persecuted people who followed Yeshua’s teachings.”

          Rebut:
          “As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

          “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

          First of all, this record of Paul’s conversion in the book of Acts was recorded by Luke through the Holy Spirit. Second, notice who it is that is speaking with Saul/Paul, that being the Lord Jesus directly. So, regardless of Paul’s previous way of life and the fact that he was in agreement with the killing of Stephen, the Lord chose him to be the apostle to the Gentiles. And regarding Stephen’s death and Paul’s involvement, is the Lord not able to forgive whomever he will? Regardless of Paul’s previous way of life, the Lord chose him to carry out his will. Remember, Jesus died for us while we were “YET” sinners. If salvation was based on what we were prior to our being called or even after, then I’m sure that non of us would be worthy of his calling either. Consder Peter who denied the Lord three times and that after already being with him and that after the Lord told him that he would disown him before it happened. So, enough about Paul persecuting the church and his personal sins. And by the way, Paul was not some lowly tent maker, but was a pharisee of parisees, a Herbrew of Hebrews, from the tribe of Benjamin, a desendent of Abraham and as for legalistic righteousness, faultless. But he considered his status as a loss in order to gain Christ. The very fact that he was a legalist and then after his encounter with the Lord he began preaching the grace of God through the shed blood of Christ opposed to salvation through observing the law should be a good sign that the Lord intervened in his life. I mean, who better to have as a witness that the law has been made obsolete than one who was a legalist?

          You said:
          “You say…. Paul was selected specifically by the Lord as an apostle to the Gentiles and all that Paul has written was given to him by revelations and visions by the Lord….
          > I say…..There’s no record of how he was appointed an Apostle..”

          Rebut:
          “This boasting will do no good, but I must go on. I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord. I was caught up to the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether I was in my body or out of my body, I don’t know—only God knows. Yes, only God knows whether I was in my body or outside my body. But I do know that I was caught up to paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be expressed in words, things no human is allowed to tell.”

          Introduction to the Romans: “This letter is from Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, [chosen by God to be an apostle] and sent out to preach his Good News.

          Intro to the Corintians: “Paul,called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God”

          Intro to the Galatians: “Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead”

          “Intro to the Ephesians: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God”

          Intro to the Colossians: “Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God”

          I think that you get the picture here. Regarding Paul, I think Richard said it, if you are rejecting Paul, then you are rejecting God the Father and Jesus Christ who appointed him as apostle. I reiterate what Peter said regarding those who distort Paul’s writings, which were considered by Peter through the Holy Spirit to be Scripture. He said, “those who do such things do so to their own destruction.” By rejecting Paul’s letters as being the word of God, you are rejecting God and his word.

          You said:
          “And a 13th Apostle? Paul comes suddenly into the picture and Matathias disappears in thin air?”

          Rebut:
          God did not choose Matthias as the replacement for Judas. The eleven cast lots to see who it would be, but Paul was God’s choice. Also, as the church began, more apostles were added to the original twelve. If I’m not mistaken, I believe that Scripture also refers to Barnabas as an apostle.

          You said:
          “You say….. If you don’t recognize his writings as the word of God, then you fall under the same status ….. to their own destruction.” (2 Pet.3:14-16).
          > I say….Before making such statements and misusing scriptures to back up your statements you must first ask yourself and do some research on “Who were the Pharisees”? What happened to them after the resurrection of Yeshua? Where did they go? Do they have descendants? And who are they today? You are right when you talk about ignorant people – THEY DON’T DO RESEARCH but instantly take up their sledge-hammer and start hammering others who are know the real history🙂 !!”

          Rebut:
          First of all, I donot misuse Scripture and I do plenty of research. In fact, if you haven’t noticed, all I have been doing is providing you with Scripture after Scripture to back up what I have been saying. Secondly, what is the significance of who the pharisees are today and where they are? Neither the pharisees now or then have any bearing regarding what the New Testament has to say regarding the law being made obsolete by Christ’s sacrifice.

          You said:
          “I repeat ignorant people –DON’T DO RESEARCH but instantly take up their sledge-hammer to start hammering others who know the history.”

          Rebutle:
          The word of God overrides history, epecially if that history is not in agreement with God’s word. By the way, I am not hammering anyone, but merely contending for the truth of God’s word using his Scriptures to do it, which you seem to ignore. Who are you to be speaking against God’s apostle?

          You said:
          “Paul is a False Prophet”

          Rebutle
          I refer you back to what Peter said regarding those who distorted Paul’s letters that were considered by him through the Holy Spirit as wisdom from God and as Scripture. I have already dealt with this issue of the teaching that Paul is a false prophet and a liar, in fact there is a book out entitled “The Problem with Paul.” Those who have discredited Paul and his writings have rejected the Lord and his word, because he is the one who appointed Paul and we have already gone over what God said through Peter about the consequences.

          You said:
          “He (Paul)is the one who brought in the word “Christian” & “Church” when he started to preach.”

          Rebutle:
          Really, I’m pretty sure that it was the Lord who used the term church first. For example he said “I will build my church and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” So, how can you say that Paul was the first to coin the phrase “Church” when Paul hadn’t even been converted yet”?”

          You said:
          “The Apostles disliked him (Paul)”

          Rebutle:
          “James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me.”

          Hmmm….. doesn’ look like Peter, James and John hated Paul and Barnabas too much seeing as they recognized the grace that God had given to them.

          Regardless, this debate is pointless in that–as you have said– you don’t recognize Paul’s writings as God given and therefore, it is a waste of time using Scripture to prove that Paul was appointed by God the Father and Jesus Christ and that the law is dead to us as believers. And as I said, to reject Paul is to reject the one who sent him. Since you do not recognize what Paul had to say regrding the law being obsolete, I am happy that Peter, James and the other apostles agreed with Paul regarding the law when Peter said in front of all of them regarding the this very question:

          “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”
          The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

          Notice that the subject of the discussion is that “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.”

          And what was Peter’s response?:

          “After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

          I apologise to those who would interpret this as “Sledge-hammering.” There are many false teachers and therefore false teachings in the world today on every level and so when I see them, I contend for the truth. If you are counting on the law of Moses in conjuction with the shed blood of Christ for your salvation, then you have been alienated from the grace of God. Salvation is a “Free gift” and cannot be earned. A person who is trusting in the works of the law are in essence depending on their own efforts. Jesus gave an example of those who are depending on works when he said that not everyone who says to me “Lord, Lord.” will enter into the kingdom of heaven. And what was their response as to why they should be allowed in? “But Lord, lord! Didn’t we prophecy in your name and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?” And what will the Lord’s response be? “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me you evildoers!’ ”

          What? But didn’t they prophecy and cast out demons and do miracles in his name?” Works, works, works!!! The reason they will give him for why they should be allowed into eternity is by their own works. And if you have put yourself under the works of the law, his answer will be the same to you, for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. It seems to me that it was not only Israel who stumbled over the stumbling block, but Gentiles as well.

          • dmcal,

            You didn’t have to waste your time writing me a 2 page+ sermon for I read the top two lines and here and there. I’s boring. For your info, I have read and reread all the bks of Paul, I did my research and made my decision and that’s that!! What are you trying to do, take me away from Yeshua and convert me to Paul’s Ministry? Here is where Yeshua will say to me “I never knew you, get away from me”

            Again to you as an American-Christian the TORAH is LAW (that’s all you Christians think) – for heaven sakes that is not the only thing it is The TORAH is a MARRIAGE COVENANT BETWEEN YAHWEH AND HIS PEOPLE. IT IS ALSO THE INSTRUCTIONS and WARNINGS ON HOW TO LIVE OUR LIVES or else we DIE A PHYSICAL DEATH AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL DEATH. You are dumping this Marriage Covenant in the garbage? And then getting on my back to convert me to Paul’s teaching … Ridiculous!

            THOSE WHO CONSIDER THE TORAH OBSOLETE ARE ALREADY SPIRITUALLY DEAD (Period) and you CANNOT COMMUNICATE WITH THEM.
            The way I understand the WORD TORAH, you will never understand it because you have an American mind, the superpower, the super-mind, we are greater than other nations. Yeah right! Look what’s happening to America now. You know what, I THANK YAHWEH THAT I AM NOT AMERICAN and never was, that is why I humble myself to follow every WORD from BEGINNING TO THE END – with the discernment of the distortion of scriptures done by wicked MEN who will burn on earth and in the lake of fire for eternity where their worm will never die.

            Since you have dumped the TORAH in the waste bin … I don’t think I want anymore communication with you. Honestly, I do not have time to sit here and repeatedly write the same thing over and over again. I’m moving on to the preparedness for what I and all the world is going to face. Right now there is too much happening in the world and every moment is precious to study, pray and prepare.

            I think it’s better you and all others attacking me, switch to the “Wrinkle Free, Rapture Ready Article” and please save your time to preach to your Christians in America telling them that the Law is dumped, to follow Paul and wait for the so-called-rapture … perhaps it will happen after a good nights sleep and a good breakfast in the morning all at your convenience.

            I don’t want to associate or communicate with those who hate the TORAH who is Yeshua Salvation on which my life depends. We are instructed to cut ourselves off from TORAH haters.

            Goodbye !!

            • I think there is some confusion here.

              Even Paul said that grace did not give us an excuse to sin ( which is violation of the Torah).

              We still obey the law in our hearts, but some aspects of it in regards to atonement for sins has been done away with. Jesus fulfilled this part.

    • Jes
      I am agreeing with you that the Law is not to be discarded. But neither is the teaching of Paul.
      What you are missing is an understanding that we are living in a sinful world.
      For example.
      1. Aperson that was hiding the Jews from Hitler during WWII had to bear false witness, Yet you would probably say that his actions were righteous?
      2. King David Was seen as righteous, Yet he killed many a philistine, thus broke the commandment on murder.

      Do both of these examples mean that the law is obsolete? NO
      Remember that david was not allowed to build the temple because he had too much blood on his hands. What we see here is a separation between the law as written on stone, and what is considered righteousness. Sin is what keeps them Apart. When sin is finally dealt with, Rightousness, and Obedience to the Law will merge.

      In the Old testament, This distinction was made by Obedience to the Law, or Obedience to the “Voice”/”Word” of God. “But the Law is the Word of God?” You may ask. Yes it is, But the Law is not a god unto itself. We SERVE a LIVING GOD.

      I say this not to condemn, but to bless. I pray you see it as such

      • Hi Dru,
        ~~~ It’s nice to know you agree with me on the Torah which is not to be looked about as Law/s but Yeshua the Alef Tav. However, if you don’t agree with me on Paul – that won’t bother me at all.
        For years now, from what I have read from Paul’s teachings and the research I have done and still doing is that I find it hard to believe him.
        ~~~ You know what, what you have written is a repeat of all that I know and that’s fine with me but no one seems to get it that I am emphasizing on Yeshua that He is the Torah Himself. My focus is totally on HIM. To almost all modern day Christians & Catholics, the Torah is a weird word which means LAW … so they run away from it and into Paul’s teachings which is a comfort zone to them.
        ~~~ My question is why must Paul’s Talmudic teaching be more important than that of the Old Covenant and all the Bks of the Prophets and the scribes?
        ~~~ People don’t read and understand but love to get into arguments and debates. The word of Yahweh is not to be debated upon but researched and practiced. Listening is a skill where one gets to think or research and then answer but sadly majority don’t have that skill. it’s the mechanical mind that wants to speed ahead of the other to gain the credit… rather than to glorify the Creator.

  13. SHABBAT SHALOM my friends Johan, Al & Richard.

    Thank you in the Holy name of YAHWEH for supporting (not me) but the TORAH. May all the Credit and the Glory be to the Most High Creator YAHWEH.
    BARUCH HABA B’SHEM YESHUA YAHWEH!!

    By the way I’m a daughter of the Most High YAH and proud to be His🙂
    Be Blessed In HIM.

    • Jes,

      Thanks, but steady on; I’m your friend but most certainly not an accessory to the gagging, rejection and verbal stoning of the great apostle, which is tantamount to vilification and rejection of our Savior, who chose him because of his beautiful heart….Are you sure you haven’t overlooked something?!!!

      God bless.

  14. This is to all who have commented in favor of remaining under the law thinking that it is required for salvation. Instead of answering each and everyone, I am submitting the following Scripture:

    Romans 7:1-6
    “Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

    In the Scripture above Paul made an analogy of the law of Moses with marriage. Just as a woman who is married is committed to the covenant of marriage as long as her husband lives, so also we died to our husband the law and are no longer committed to that marriage. By the way Richard, where there is not law, there is the grace of God through Jesus Christ. I don’t understand why whenever I say that we are not under the law that people equate that with having free rein to sin. We simply follow under a new covenant of faith apart from the law. By following Christ we fulfill the righteous requirments of the law, but we are not under the law. I follow Christ and when I slip and sin, then I confess my sins he is faithful and just and cleanes me of all sin, but I am not under the law of Moses. I follow Christ, saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law. Below are more Scriptures showing that we are not under the law:

    “Romans 3:27-28
    Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle?On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.”

    “Romans 10:4
    Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.”

    “Romans 4:13-15
    It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.”

    And here is what Peter, James and the rest had to say at Jerusalem regarding the issue of whether or not believers are under the law:

    Acts 15:5-11
    “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    The issue was that there were some there saying that the Gentiles must be circumcised and obey the law of Moses. Yet, you notice that Peter was not in agreement, but referred them to salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

    How is it that you don’t understand that we as believers are not under the law?

    • Hi Don, Hope you are well.

      “By the way Richard, where there is not law, there is the grace of God through Jesus Christ. I don’t understand why whenever I say that we are not under the law that people equate that with having free rein to sin. We simply follow under a new covenant of faith apart”

      Well Don, I also believe that whilst under grace there is not license to sin,
      because under grace, we have the means to keep the Law. But without grace
      we will do nothing but break the Law. So grace is the restraint, but that does
      not mean that the Law has vanished just because we have the means to keep
      it. Whilst under grace we are not subject to the Law; but what is the condition of one who falls out of grace; don’t they once again become subject to the Law, because, if not, how can they be judged?

      However you look at it, sin is the result of law breaking, with the first law given
      to Adam, which as we know, he violated. From that one transgression, were
      born a multitude of sins, the degree of which had to be legislated for in order to exact appropriate punishments, according to God’s scale of severity.

      And then came the defining ten commandments.

      I really don’t see what the big deal is. Out of grace we are law breakers, and under grace we are law keepers, but grace itself does not abolish the Law,
      because those who die out of grace will be judged by the Law. By what means can a judicial process be executed without legal directives which equate with sin.

      Sorry if all this sounds legalistic, but the word of God is essentially a statute
      book embossed with grace.

      I think a lot of confusion arises when we assume that Paul is suggesting that
      the Law is diluted by grace, but in the end I think we can all agree that
      salvation itself is possible only through the saving grace of Jesus, and that’s
      all that matters in the end.

      Sorry if you find this somewhat convoluted,,,am pretty tired!!!
      May have another go soon !

      Thanks for all that you have written.

      Blessings to you.

  15. Hi to all,

    Though Marianne has reiterated above that this Post was intended for all of us to reflect upon our own personal spiritual condition, (that of our heart towards the Lord), the discussion has apparently (again) presented some contentious topics. The Torah, Sabbath, and whether or not Paul was actually an apostle of Yeshua’s?

    Though I could possibly contribute here by providing my own particular views regarding these subjects, the length to do so would be ridiculous.
    (For those that are familiar with me, you are well aware that being concise, is not necessarily one of my strongest attributes. lol.)

    However with that being said, I still wish to provide some material for those that are interested, to reflect upon.

    Within many links to other sites that people will utilize to redirect others to, (with the hopes in which, its content would add credibility and substantiate their particular point of view) the commentary that is provided is presented as being unequivocally factual, and dictated as such to the reader.

    Over the years I have found my brother John to be much different. Rather than being dictating, he is instead thought provoking.
    Perhaps what he has to say regarding some of the above topics, will prove to be beneficial for those that still possess an open heart?

    Regarding the Sabbath.
    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Ki_Tisa/Shabbat/shabbat.html

    Regarding Paul’s authority as an Apostle. (Just one of many evidences of this authority, would be the Corinthians within 2 Cor. 3:3.)
    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Ki_Tisa/Shabbat/shabbat.html

    Regarding Paul and Oral Torah, (located half way down the page), though the whole page itself is informative.
    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Oral_Torah/oral_torah.html

    Why did God give us the Law, and what is the most important Mitzvah of all?
    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Pinchas/The_Mitzvah/the_mitzvah.html

    As well, some further thoughts regarding Parashat Ki Teitzei.
    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Ki_Teitzei/Goal_of_Law/goal_of_law.html

    Be Blessed

    • Alienated – your comment above is well written and I thank you for your links.

      Various voyages were taken from the original posting topic leading to many interesting destinations and exoitic islands. It would take Christopher Columbus, Fleet Admiral Nimitz and even Caption Jake Sparrow a life time of sailing to navigate through those waters successfully. Those voyages are part of blogs, interesting to read and contribute to learning – but I want to sail from the port from which we began at the top of this page.

      Here is my contribution – focusing on one portion of the post [with some interpretations] followed by scripture references to highlight my interpretations of the coming end of the age and the rapture “story” that is expounded upon by fiction authors like those of Left Behind and The Late Great Planet Earth (he offered a rapture window date too).

      As you know Alienated, I tend to be opinionated and abrupt to the point of “abhorrent”.

      So, Brother and Sister in Christ: “Ships ahoy!”

      Here is a portion of the original posting with some [interpretations].

      “For you [believers: the 7 Churches of Rev 2/3] must check yourself and look back on your life [assessment of the 7 Churches leads to a call from the Lord: “Repent”]. Are you ready [for My return]? Focus on Me [Christ the King of kings, Lord of lords]! You [“you” as a member of the Body, a member of one of the 7 Churches]are focusing on the rapture [taken out of this world and the coming Tribulation/Day of the Lord] but you are not caring about what is in your life [idols – spots/blemishes] or what you need to take care of in your life [idols and any of your priorities, which you place above Me – the head of the Church]what you need to take care of in your life [see verses below].

      So, shipmates – are ye ready?

      “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1, NJKV).

      “Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up” (James 4:9-10, NJKV).

      “Beloved, I implore you as aliens and strangers and exiles [in this world] to abstain from the sensual urges (the evil desires, the passions of the flesh, your lower nature) that wage war against the soul. Conduct yourselves properly (honorably, righteously) among the Gentiles, so that, although they may slander you as evildoers, [yet] they may by witnessing your good deeds [come to] glorify God in the day of inspection [when God shall look upon you wanderers as a pastor or shepherd looks over his flock]” (1 Peter 2:11-12, AMP).

      The first direct message to the Churches in Revelations 2 and 3, from our Good Shepherd is to “repent”. Repent means: stop, think and turnaround from selfishness, pride of life and “sinful ways” and return to God and the path of righteousness – the narrow way.

      “The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost” (Revelations 22:16-17, AMP).

      Bottom line (in my opinion): the “rapture” event is for the “bride” (see the parable of the 10 virgins followed by other parables). But you see – the bridal party is ready to receive Him into their house (on earth). Notice, the groom comes into their house, door closes. He does not leaves with the 5 virgins, taking them “away” to the house He built under the eye of The Father (in heaven). There is no “rapture” within this parable – is there? There are other parables to read, giving additional insight into the “end of the age”. I think it is important to read the other parables (as a collection) to get the BIG picture – pay close attention to the “wheat/tares” with the parable of the “one taken (wheat) one left (tare)”.

      Also, the rapture event of the NT is found in Acts 8 and this believer was moved really quickly from one place on the planet to another. That is an interesting application of the Word “rapture” – when considering the elect is gathered together from the 4 corners of the earth, immediately after the tribulation.

      Please consider this – read the Word as it is written – in the order it is written.

      “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor]. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other” (Matthew 24: 29-31, AMP).

      I believe we should not focus on a “rapture” out of here as some form of escape or in absence of experiencing “Tribulation”, but prepare (a bride without spot or rankle) for His return when He comes in the clouds with the army of heaven behind Him.

      He will protect His bride (the 5 virgins prepared and within the house). It the tares that are taken out/burned up. It is at the last trumpet (7th trumpet of Rev) when the dead in Christ rise first and then, we who are alive, are gather up to Him – as He returns!

      Before He comes, we must “overcome” and the key overcoming is found in Rev 12:11.

      The next few years (about 4) are going to be very Tribulationish for non-believers as I apply Malachi, chapter 4 to believers.

      How was that Al?

      Blessings – Psalms 43.

      • Hi D.J.

        Don’t be getting sea-sick on that voyage there. lol.
        I don’t think that you’re opinionated? I think that you are assertive, and passionate which are completely different in nature.
        (I’m opinionated! lol.)

        I was not quite sure as to what your particular point was regarding your quotation of scripture above? I certainly can’t refute that all of it would be the truthful word of YHVH. I could begin to address some of the questions that you pose, however since you suggested to look at the parable of the “ten virgins”, why don’t we delve into that first. I will just copy and paste the following from my manuscript, and we can discuss what the parable may reveal at a later date.

        The Ten Virgins.

        Parables, as defined by Merriam-Webster are, “specifically: usually a short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle.” I would like to add, that when included in biblical scripture that parables also serve to reveal a specific mysterious truth.

        They are not unique to being utilized only within the New Testament, but have instead been utilized many times throughout the fullness of scripture, from possibly the very first scripture ever written, that being the Book of Enoch, throughout the Tanakh, (or Old Testament).

        I would first like you to have an understanding of what the actual Jewish cultural aspects are, to what we would refer to today as the engagement period and subsequent marriage ceremony. You may find that some of the definitions of the Hebrew to be rather intriguing, in that they can be also attributed to have a spiritual application. As well, it is interesting to note that a time period of (7) seven days, or one week is put aside to celebrate the wedding itself. Could this possibly coincide with what is written within Daniel 9:27?

        The Engagement and Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin;

        Within the traditional Jewish culture, the process of marriage occurs within two distinct stages: The stage of kiddushin (which we would commonly refer to as the engagement period) and nisuin (which would define the act of the marriage ceremony itself). In the past, it wasn’t uncommon at all, for the time period between the two, to be separated by an extended length of time. Many times it would be up to a year apart. The kiddushin takes effect when the woman would accept a proposal that was offered by the prospective husband.

        The word “kiddushin” comes from the root “Qof-Dalet-Shin”. This Hebrew root word has within its meaning, two very significant aspects. One of its meanings would be “sanctified”, where the other would be being “set aside for a specific, sacred purpose”. Therefore kiddushin not only expresses the sanctity of this engagement period, but also that this woman has now been set aside specifically to be the wife of only one man in particular.

        The engagement period that we are familiar with today in our society, is far more relaxed than kiddushin. Our engagement period now, can be called off, or annulled for any number of reasons.

        However when kiddushin had been accepted, the relationship could only be cancelled by either death, or divorce. Though the marriage, (or nisuin) itself hadn’t yet taken place, the woman was considered to be the legal wife of the man. This information should help us to understand Matthew 1:18-20., just a little bit better then.

        However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete. During the wedding ceremony itself (7) seven special blessings are read. This is called Sheva B’rachot, (The Seven Blessings.)

        The nisuin (from a word meaning “elevation”) completes the process of marriage. “The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.”

        In contrast to a non-Jewish custom, in which the bride and groom take off to some exotic honeymoon location, “Jewish custom dictates that the couple begin their new life together in the Husbands community.”

        For “seven consecutive evenings” following the wedding, it is customary that friends or relatives host festive meals in their honor. The act of feasting recalls the “seven-day celebration” after the marriage of Jacob to Leah, while spending their days in prayer, learning Torah and performing mitzvos in order to give the “new house in Israel” a solid foundation in God’s ways of holiness, (Genesis 29;27). This also confirms what Yeshua said in John 14:1-3.

        During this “seven-day celebration”, and the tradition to throw dinner parties for the new couple each night during the week following the wedding. At the end of each of these meals, after Birkat Hamazon (Grace After Meals), Sheva B’rachot are also recited. In fact, these meals themselves are popularly referred to as Sheva B’rachot after the special wedding blessings recited at their end.

        Why Ten Virgins?

        The number 10 was not just an arbitrary figure that Yeshua happened to pull out of the blue either.

        But it appears to be a significant number Biblically. Within the King James the Hebrew “עשר”, transliterated as “’eser”, (Strong’s 6235) has been translated into the English “ten” a total of 172 times.

        Some examples would be;

        – God would spare the city for 10 righteous. (Genesis 18:32)

        – 10 camels were loaded with gifts for Rebekah. (Genesis 24:10)

        – Rebekah stayed 10 days before leaving. (Genesis 24:55)

        – Joseph had 10 brothers that went to Egypt to buy corn. (Genesis 42:3)

        – The Tabernacle had 10 curtains. (Exodus 26:1)

        – God gave Moses the 10 Commandments. (Deuteronomy 4:13)

        – Boaz had 10 witnesses at his marriage to Ruth. (Ruth 4:2)

        – Solomon had 10 lavers for water made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:6)

        – Solomon also had 10 golden candlesticks made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:7)

        – Solomon also had 10 tables made as well. (2 Chronicles 4:8)

        Then there are also the 10 days of Awe that fall between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and the 10 lost tribes.

        Jewish tradition also believes that there are only ten true Songs in the history of the world. These true Songs are not mere melodies, but they are expressions of the harmony of creation and mark monumental transitions in history.

        Interestingly in Jewish tradition, the Tenth Song has not yet been sung yet: it is the Song of the coming of the Mashiach, which will be sung at the End of Days (see Isaiah 26:1).

        As well, there is the “Minyan” the quorum necessary to recite certain prayers, consisting of ten adult Jewish men required to establish a synagogue.

        Vines Complete Expository Dictionary says that the number “ten”, the Greek “δέκα”, transliterated as “deka”, (Strong’s 1176) has been used a total of 248 times, and that its definition consists of, “the measure of human responsibility”, and is also the number of “completion”.

        The above is simply to verify, that apparently with God, the number 10 holds significant meaning, and it was not simply an arbitrary number.

        The Parable itself.

        In my opinion from conducting this study, there is no doubt in my mind that Matthew 25:1-13. is an accurate description of what is commonly referred to theologically, as the “rapture”.

        Scriptural references that have been written that do more than imply that, “Spirit filled believers”, are indeed the “bride” of Yeshua.

        These references can be found in the parable of Matthew 22:2-14., Luke 12:36., John 3:29., 2 Corinthians 11:2., Rev. 22:17., and can be substantiated in Rev. 19:7-9. where it is written that an actual “wedding ceremony” will take place in heaven. And this parable, in my opinion, is definitely a description of the choosing of “who” the partakers of that event will be.

        Since these verses also describe some form of distinction between these two particular groups of believers, of which some will be considered to be worthy to be His bride, whereas others apparently will not, (Just as a man would not simply marry a woman because she is a woman, or a woman wouldn’t simply marry a man because he is a man), therefore Yeshua, (Jesus) is looking for unique, or prerequisite attributes as well. The following is an effort in an attempt to understand, what those particular distinctions and attributes consist of, and who specifically it is that Yeshua was referring to within the parable itself. i.e.; Who are these two separate groups of five wise, and five foolish?

        But, before I explain in my opinion as to what those distinctions are, lets first look at the verses and see what “they” the Ten Virgins had in common.

        “1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.”

        (It is at this point here, that there is a break. It is in a sense a third conditional form. The previous narrative tells of all the virgins going forth with their lamps to meet the Bridegroom and that the wise of them, took oil in the vessels of their lamps, as opposed to the foolish that did not. The following verses describe in more detail as to what took place prior to this happening, and if read in context, the foolish not only did not have “enough” oil, but also arrived late. Implied by the word translated as “afterward” in verse 11)

        5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.7 Then all those virgins arose trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil, for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for and you: but go rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” KJV.

        Before going further, I think that something very significant needs to be clarified first. That is the Greek definitions of the word “know” that Yeshua uses in verse 12. It is translated from the Greek word, “εἴδω”, transliterated as “eidō” (Strong’s # 1492) and its definition is exactly what you would think that it means. “Verily I say unto you, I do not “perceive with the eyes, perceive by any of My senses”, You.” (Emphasis and paraphrasing mine.)

        This would be a horribly devastating thing to hear from the Lord. That is why He said “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV.

        So what was it that these virgins had in common?

        (1) They were all Virgins.

        Fortunately I don’t believe that this is referring to our sexual experience at all.

        Though the English word “virgin” was translated from the Greek, “παρθένος” transliterated as “parthenos”, (Strong’s 3933) in which its definitions would indeed suggest that it may, I believe instead, that it has more to do with the condition of our hearts. In 2 Corinthians 11:2., Paul says the following,

        “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

        Here the word “chaste” is used as an adjective to describe a specific quality of the acceptable virgins. The English “chaste” is derived from the Greek “ἁγνός”, transliterated as “hagnos”, (Strong’s 53). The definition of chaste is as follows; “1) exciting reverence, venerable, sacred, 2) pure. a) pure from carnality, chaste, modest. b) pure from every fault, immaculate. c) clean.” I also don’t believe that the Etymology of “hagnos” is coincidental in that it is so closely associated with the Greek “ἅγιος”, transliterated as “hagios”, (Strong’s 40) which is defined as “a most holy thing, a saint” and has been translated into English within the King James as “holy” 161 times, and into “saint” a total of 61.

        Therefore I believe that it is reasonable to assume that Yeshua is rather referring to their/our purity of heart, or put another way, our desire to maintain Divine relationship. They were all believers. However, were they all chaste, and did they maintain their commitment to their bridegroom, not allowing for anything to deviate them from their faith?

        (2) They all had lamps.

        These would have been hand held lamps made out of pottery clay that someone could carry with them. The Hebrew transliteration would be “Niyr” and they would have had a wick (pishtah) as well as an area to contain the olive oil to burn. These lamps can be considered to be a symbolic reference to the Holy Spirit being indwelt within the believer. Ones light can only shine if the Holy Spirit, (or oil) is present and available to utilize. (See (3) below.)

        (3) They all had oil.

        This can be associated with the above point (2) and is a very significant point as well, for the “oil” is considered and has been established by most every biblical scholar of note, to represent the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

        See Exodus 29:7, 29:21. Exodus 30:25, 26, 31. Exodus 40:9, 1 Samuel 16:12, 13. 2 Kings 9:3. for just a few examples out of the numerous others included in the Tanakh. However, notice that in verse (3) it states that the foolish, “took no oil with them”, and in verse (8) that the foolish had run out of oil, and their lamps had gone out, “Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.”

        Though it is one of the shortest verses in the Bible, “Quench not the Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19), should be considered very carefully by all professing Christians. The light of a lamp can only burn with fire. “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Acts 2:3. “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” Matthew 3:11/ Luke 3:16.

        The word “quench” above that Paul utilizes in that verse, has been translated from the Greek “σβέννυμι”, transliterated as “sbennumi”, (Strong’s 4570), and its definitions are, “to extinguish, quench of fire, or things on fire, to be quenched, to go out. metaph. to quench, to suppress, “stifle of divine influence.”

        Therefore I believe, that it would not be unreasonable to say then, that though one may have the Holy Spirit residing in them, the state of his or her “fire” is determined by the willingness of the host or recipient, to surrendering to that of God’s will, rather than that of their own.

        (4) All had been waiting.

        Since the “the bridegroom tarried” it would be logical to assume, that while they were waiting for His return, they all carried on with daily life. Just as in the days of Noah, they and we are, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”, before Noah escaped from the flood in the Ark.

        (5) All had slumbered and slept.

        The Greek “νυστάζω” transliterated as “nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “καθεύδω” transliterated as “katheudō”, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”.

        (6) They all heard the cry.

        Which in my opinion, the “cry” that is heard in verse (6) is referring to “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:” that is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and which is also referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:52. as well. I will go into further detail as to why I am of this opinion, within the chapter under the heading, “The Rapture”.

        (7) They all heard this call at midnight.

        The English word translated as “midnight” which is utilized (6) times within the New Testament has been translated as such, from either one of two Greek words. These would be “μεσονύκτιον” transliterated as “mesonuktion” (Strong’s 3317) which in its definition means simply “midnight” and is used within Mark 13:35., Luke 11:5., Acts 16:25., and 20:7.

        The other word is “νύξ” transliterated as “nyx” (Strong’s 3571) when conjoined with the Greek word “μέσος” transliterated as “mesos” (Strong’s 3319), and it is only translated as the word midnight twice. Once in the parable above, Matthew 25:6., and again in Acts 27:27., where Paul had the vision from the angel telling him that all aboard the ship “would be saved”. The definition for “nyx” is as follows; “night, (metaph. the time when work ceases, the time of death, the time for deeds of sin and shame, the time of moral stupidity and darkness, the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber.”

        (8) They all made it to the Door.

        The five wise entered through it and went in with the Bridegroom to take their part in the marriage, where the five foolish upon arriving, found that the door was shut. There are many references made within scripture regarding the word “door”. Therefore, I suspect that many in the past, when studying this particular parable, because of its innocuousness, have simply chosen to disregard this particular word. However, I personally believe that to conduct proper hermeneutics, critical exegesis must be utilized.

        In doing so, I was rather intrigued in finding out what the word “door” revealed.

        Though in Greek there are many words that can be utilized to express unique and specific aspects or definitions, (as opposed to the limitations that the English language may provide), when it comes to the word door there is only one.

        The Greek word that is translated into English as the word door is the word “θύρα” transliterated as “thyra”, (Strong’s 2374). However, the significance of this word can be found within its definitions, which are as follows; “a door, the vestibule, used of any opening like a door, an entrance, way or passage into. “in a parable or metaphor, the door through which sheep go in and out, the name of him who brings salvation to those who follow his guidance, ” an open door” is used of the opportunity of doing something, the door of the kingdom of heaven (likened to a palace) denotes the conditions which must be complied with in order to be received into the kingdom of God.”

        What is interesting to note is where and when this “door” (thyra) appears in the book of Revelation. It is utilized only (3) times. These being Revelation 3:8., 3:20., and finally that of 4:1. This “door” that the wise virgins pass through within this particular parable, is not mentioned once after 4:1 within the rest of the entire book?

        However the thought had occurred to me that perhaps the following scripture had duality of purpose and was also prophetic in nature, when God was speaking to Cain and said, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” Genesis 4:7a.) KJV.

        So what is it you think that, Yeshua was eluding to within this parable? As well, what could our Lord have possibly been eluding to after stating all that he had to say in Luke 21:8 on, to then say after all of that in verse 36, “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”?

        Shalom & Be Blessed.

        • very good explanation

        • Thank you Al! That was rich and is a blessing.
          I’m exploring those links you posted too – filled with treasure – pearls of wisdom for my sailing.

          • Hi DJ,

            I am going to post some further information regarding the Ten Virgin parable at the bottom of this thread, as well as some additional material regarding the real topic of Marianne’s post here. Of course it will be way too long, (its my modus operandi. I can’t help myself.)🙂

            But as I said to Dru, for those that take the time to read it in it’s entirety, it may prove to be informative, for those that don’t ….. they may just miss a nugget or two?

            Shalom & Be Blessed.

  16. Dru

    I almost put the exact lineup in the email last night. I feel this is what God has revealed to me about the kings of the one hour of Revelations 17:12.

    They have no kingdom but they are given authority as kings with the beast for one hour. The frightening part is we know who gave these kings the money to over throw the peace of the Middle East!

    I know what God said in the dream about DC and the women who was arrayed in blue with flowers at the throat and then she turned left and was in a red coat with flowers at the throat and she went down in the ocean on her ladder along with her firefighter. I don’t know if you remember the dream. Most of dreams were so ahead of the actual happenings that I don’t know if they did much to produce warning, but God has a plan.

    I normally would have not written or shared my dreams or visions with any but when I ask the Lord in prayer why is being given so many dreams and visions and the purpose? I heard from in Hebrew (which I do not speak) and I heard in my heart ears to prophesy, meaning to share the dreams and visions with people that they would be ready.

    I did preach on them one night at my church but it was inconjunctions with a dream he gave me I felt that was specifically about our church being ready for 3 services a day in the am and also pm. As the thing that is going to hit our nation is going to do the opposite of wash. dc desired. They have a desire for faith to be dead under the true God that they may replace him. In replacing him they can give control to new thinking, which goes along with you are feeling. Philosphy of the enemy would replace truth. I this was revealed in one of my last dreams as I saw a women standing at a wall of fire, (which signifies God). People were worshipping with holy hands/arms held up toward Heaven in praise and worship of the savior. This women had scraggly white hair and it had been cut short, it gave the appearance of manly? She was ordering men who were upon fire truck ladders to hose down the fire on the wall.
    This women is the same women in the dc dream of the attack on our nation. She was dressed with two peices of clothing, a top and a bottom.The clothing was as a black and white spotted leopard, but the spots has something weird where they were being connected by smaller fagmented lines, almost like a spider weaving pattern around the spots. The black was layed on top of the white.

    Supposedly special witch drs. or shamin came to the USA in Oct. last year with 13 crystal skulls of the universe. (If I get it right) They supposedly went to the points of opening in the sky, using lay lines to identify the openings. They were signaling to the evil forces. What were they signaling that things are made ready for the end? I did not hear anything about this until Augusto Perez put it in one of his news letter and had conversations about it on a bite show. We spoke about some a dreams God gave him and about a tsunami off the east coast and about my dream involving DC. At that time he spoke with me also regarding this event. There is alot of powerful witchcraft being utilitzed at this point against our nation, these shamins used laylines of the land to direct their paths to the openings in the sky. What the actual goal they were trying to accomplish I do not know, other than it appeared to be to bring harm or evil upon the nation. It may have been to try and block the prayers of the saints within the nation. Do you know that 96 percent of all ministers are within the USA. If the deisre is to stop the later day rain, (this is my guess based on the dream of the women and the wall of fire and the saints worshipping and she was trying to put out the fire) I believe it will not work, as only God controls the walls of fire. I don’t care how much witchcraft they have, they are using evil to come against the goodness of God and nothing can stop. I believe the latter day rain will come upon the USA.

    I believe the USA, England and Israel are going to be injured as nations
    but I think our nation will some how come out. ” I saw one of the heads and it was wounded as if it were wounded to death”. Based on my dreams. I feel it was revelation about the war of Gog and Magog. If this is true then the wound of the head that was wounded and thought to have been to its death and was not, is most likely the USA. I thought that maybe it might be the church. But it uses the word “him” in Revelations 13:4 “who is able to make war with him.” The first part of “they worshipped the dragon which gave power to the beast”, at the begging of the chapter it speaks of the “sea and the sand”, the sea the Catholic church and I believe the sand might be the calif/Islam. I think the commnet of the sand representing this people is validated by the words of God to ” Abraham that he would be the father of many nations and it also in another place speaks of the number being more than the number of the stars and in another place as the number of the sands.
    The people of the blood who are Islam have Father Abrahams blood from Ishmel. This would tie in the sand? Also the Catholic church and Islam worship and are faiths of satan, if we understand correctly according to the word. They control by the number of people under the sea and under the sand the majority of the people globally. These two faiths coming together as one with this new bible, more then likly using KJV in hopes that the denominations of people who use it would buy into their philosphy and plans for the “NWO”.

    I can not clearly say what will happen after this, I do feel the wings spoken of in the end times that wisp away the Israelites will be a resuce mission. It could be a rescue mission by our nation, if God intervenes and gives the saints control again with in this nation. Because as of right now all of our controls are without help to us, as we have the alien among us. He does not beleive or have faith in these documents as they are based on trust in God and the covenants with him. So they mean nothing to him. He will walk on them until he is out of his control here and he moves on to his new location if he is part of the “NWO”. Then the dragon will go into the temple and the desolation will take palce

    This thing met for evil against the three largest Chrtistian nations are intended for good by God. I believe the Jews will find Jesus Christ in this period and man will return to all the churches and the latter day rain will fall.

    I do believe that Russia will have her hands in the coming event of Gog and Magog, which I believe is going to involve us. I say this two fold word speaks of her involvement and because of the dream I had about the red can, that resembled a sub. I believe they will come against us for the support of Israel and aIso for money given to retaliate against us. I believe the retaliation will be over the money (as it was seen as silver) stripped from and owed to China. The markets are going to be collapsed and the restructuring of their new currency of the “NWO” will not be fair, they will do one for you and two for me and one for you, This I believe was seen in the dream where it showed china as a huge yellow damask wingback chair with one leg that had been broken and was eschewed of the four legs. It was seen in the same dream of Russia.

    Yes, I think these things of Gog and Magog might start this year. It seems like most of the “NWO” is ready to role out, all of the markets and currency/wealth of the nations have been stripped. This is to transfer the wealth from the people to the evil which is also spoken of in the Bible.

    I can only guess this might be why the pres. said he has a guarantee of five more years?

    I read Johanas’ post to you, her thoughts are that these 10 given temporary authority is Europe? I do not think so regarding the current situation and events. I say the thinking is right because they are made king but they have not been given the kingdom. How are you King with no kingdom, you have taken control over a thing by force, making yourself in charge but you have not been put in office by the people/election. Money was given to somone in each place to over throw the power as rebels but they have not been offically put in the position. They are like pirates on a sea they have stolen the ship, they possess it, and he has made himself captain but he has no rights, deed, title, ownership by any means like the election by the people. This seems to make perfect sense to me as to why they would not have the kingdom but be a part of the beast.

    If this is so then it starts sharpening the photo of who the owners of the “NWO” might be, and who maybe seen as the head of the government portion of the beast.

    Do you think we are dealing with two wars? The first being the war of Gog and Magog to take control from the righteous of earth to enforce or bring about the “NWO” , the second being to take the peace from the earth and it would be the battle Armageddon?

    The first in other words would be pre-trib which brings about the signing of the treaty and the second bringing the tribulation and then the distruction of all things as they are known.

    A deadly wound has to occur of one of the kingdoms, is this the Roman catholic church nation or is this the USA? Two bring an end to the conflick the peace treaty will have to be signed. This will bring the false peace and then during the first 3.5 years spoken of the final battle/war will break out. At the beginning are somewhere soon after the mark will go forth as a part of the peace, thus suppoedly assuring man kind that the NWM will have charge over the world stopping terrosim. Then finally the return of the Lord.

    I want to try to understand and disearn her thought. Did we not all believe at one time that Germany will have to have involvement as they have not been punished for the evil inflicted upon the Israelite people.

    I say in 17 it speaks of her as being the Catholic church that had the power as the women who rides on the beast is the Mother Harlot. It says “how much she has glorified herself, and lived delicously, so much torment and sorrow give her. for she saith in her heart, I set a queen and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow . Therefore shall her palgues shall come in one day, death, morning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire; for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.”

    A church is always referred to as “she”.

    I set as a queen, means she controls as a ruler over her own nation, which is true of the Catholic church.

    How much she glorified herself, they call the lowest priest a father, which is to put down the true and only Holy Father. They call the pope vicar, which means christ on earth. To dupe money out of saddened perish peoples when loved ones died they made up pregator. They changed the day of sabbath to Sunday from Saturday, they took easter and turned it to the day of our Lord Jesus Christ which is really the pagan holiday of fertility, they changed the water baptism fronm emersion to sprinkling and they made up titles for the baptism instead of Jesus Christ name who did the finished work and is God, (how could there have been a father, son, holy ghost before the death of Jesus christ? It can not be, but that they changed it and it is recorded in history books. Jesus christ who is the son, the Holy Ghost came and was given upon his death how could it have been used for water baptism before the occurence and before Jesus Christ even began to teach. These few things alone tell parts of the sorted story of a fallen and corrupt church, they wanted control over the people and this was the most effective way to do so, take that which was of God and steal it and call it yours and tell one lie after another, kill the martyrs who told the truth for the faith to try and keep it uncontaminated and adventually seize the control.) they changed times and on and on.

    She is no widow, this is true. She is not espoused to God, as she joined herself to the dragon.

    She is called the Mother Harlot as she is a whore, she went to the dragon and got into idolatry. This was the reason that the covenant of the Jews was broken, they broke it when they went off into idolatry.

    Revelations 18:11-13 speaks of these things, And the merchants shall weep and moun over her, for no man buyeth buy the merchandize any more, gold, silver, precious stones, fine pearls, linen, of purple, silk of scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all of the vessels and on and on about her delicacies and woods, and aroumas.
    Who wears these colors of their vestments and who uses all of these things in the church but the catholic church, as gold and silver use to be in the temple for the serving items belonging to the Lord but no one uses all of these things but her. She was set in her services to copy the layout of the Jewish church.

    Revelations 18:21 And a mighty Angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it in to the sea saying,”. This verse I beleive was
    set as it is to show the evil that was done to the children. The word says any who would touch one of these little ones would be better that a millstone be hung around their neck and they were cast into the sea.

    Revelations 17:18 And the women which thou sawest, is that great city,which regnith over kings of the earth. Rome rules over the world, she just made President Obama change his direction on this new health bill and she has had power to do so with all kings. The heads of all nations are always seen kissing the hand of the Pope and the leaders go to him not the other way around.

    To make the mark of the beast to go forward you will need some type of collapse that man will be in such confusion that he won’t realize what is going on until he is under the ruler of a dictator. This can only happen by taking out the USA,. You will need a fearful law threat to keep it under such rule. The usa would be the most defiant of all. Shria law is the worse in the whole world and the roman catholic church has involved itself in dictating to the whole world and speaking it mind on all things with peoples around the world. There are many who think that they are the ones who helped birth the Islam nations? I don’t know if this is true. There photos of Pope John Paul kissing the Quran. Let it be said I am not speaking against the Catholic people. God loves all of us, we are speaking against the establishment that changed water baptism, days, times, killed and marytred believers for having and keeping the full faith, not the people.

    The Bible is clear about those who change one word of the Bible.
    These are those who find nothing sacred, also calling themselves vicar,
    meaning Christ on earth. It also points to the ones who go around in long robes, when they tell you not to eat meat. It says call no man Father but yet they have the lowest cleergy called father, as if setting themselves above our Heavenly Father. Here alittle and there alittle, line upon line and precept upon precept.

    I believe the Catholic church is giving the “nwo” their backing with this new bible. The do not think of our Bible the KJV or newer word translations as their Bible. Their Bible has many other chapters which were deemed as not being inspired word as they have pagan issues. An example would be of someone being cursed and changing the curse by the use of things given by an Angel, the book of tobit which is claimed to be a man who is a type of the heavenly father here on earth, also Tobias being said to be a type of christ and again Sarah said to be the church and so on these books of question in origin and authorship thy refer to as the Apocrapha.

    God clearly lets it be known that the evil of witchcraft and false doctrines come from one place, satan. So the pagan wordings are then truely known in origin, just as he said he knows where the seat of satan is located. These are markers to the false large church that sets on many nations, peoples and tongues.

    There are many true believers and wonderful people in this false church, many were martyred with other during the dark ages as clearly spoken of in the foxes book of martyrs.

    They already have started to endoctrinate their peoples thinking that it does not matter what you call God, they say we are all still believing in the same God.

    There is a scripture in Revelations 18:4 that says let the people come out of her, that they not receive the punishment of her evil.

    In chapter 17, It also says; ” full of names of Blasphemy “, this I think is speaking of these current event of changing the names of God and Jesus Christ to be written in replacement of “allahi”. My understanding is they took the KJV and made the changes and produced the wording in the middle eastern languages. The catholic church is not the only ones involed in this, the two who also started the new church called chrislam are involved along with the publisher. Can this be any other blasphemy as spoken? I don’t hink so. I understand this has just happened and I do not know if the copies have even been released. I don’t know if you are familar with what I am speaking?

    So if then it says in 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee, and the voice of the bride and bridegroom shall be heard no more in you……for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    Revelations 18:19 for in one hour she is made desolate..20..Rejoice over her, thou Heaven and ye Holy Apostles and prophets.rejoice for God hath avenged you on her. Again “She” is always the church, “He” is governement.

    So I think the catholic church is mystery babylon, I think that those who are in the middle east are the kings of no kingdom. Does that mean that the Kings in power in Europe wont have involvement absolutely not. I would personally know where Johanna is drawing the knowledge from.

    I do not know of any kingdoms that have been overthrown in Europe, but they to are having problems with the people of middle easter origin.

    Sorry this is kind of long.
    My best

    • Pattie,
      Yes I think there will be two wars. One before the actual tribulation, one at the end.
      The one at the beginning will be regional/ middle eastern. The one at the end will be Global.
      The one at the end is the actual Gog/Magog war, and is also the Armagedon war.
      The one at the beginning, the regional one, Has no specific name attached to it, But i call it the Psalm 83 war as does Hal Lindsey. (One of the few areas that I agree with him on)

      This first War however, is meant to appear to be the Gog/Magog/Armageddon war, THOUGH IT IS NOT. This is part of the deception. As The person posessed by a demon that Makes a covenent with Israel will Appear to be Christ to many (A strong delusion, The falling away). This the Antichrist/ beast. The person giving him his Authority is the dragon, (Satan possessing a man, who is possibly the Mahdi of Muslim prophecy, AKA The king of Tyre.) The False Prophet, (Probably the Pope) will declare this Antichrist beast as Jesus/God, with “sign and wonders” to back it up. What you will have is Chrislam, which encompasses more than half the globe, under his direct control. Not to mention Mormons, Jehovah’s witnesses, Hindus, etc. Many protestent churches will also follow suit, being swayed by the signs and wonders. Only a remnant will remain apart from this, and they will be labeled as terrorists, and hunted down, turned over to authorities by loved ones, Tried by councils, and executed (Martyred).

      The Future for the U.S. is bleek. Perhaps a handful will make it through to see the End, and Christs return as king?

      I am not sure how this fits in with your dreams, as I have never been good at interpreting them. But the first thought that comes to mind regarding the Woman with short “Manly” hair is that of a holocaust survivor, trying to put out a fire being the start of rebuilding??

      As for the Israelites rescue into the Wilderness, they will be protected by God.

      Just my thoughts, I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal the interpretation to those dreams to you.

  17. To all,
    Isn’t it funny, How one comment I made praising Pattie for Making a Beautiful Comment on making oneself ready for the coming of the Groom, seemed to spark a debate between the Law and Grace. As Al said above, I do not know whether this is supposed to be how we figure out God’s plan, or not? But contrast this debate with Pattie’s comment And you will see what the groom is looking for, and where we are at. Will he find Faith, like hers, Or bickering over dogma? Will he find Obedience like hers or licentiousness.

    The Law, apart from Grace does not save!
    Grace, apart from Law, does not sanctify!

    The law leads to repentence.
    Grace gives us something to believe.

    It is only together that they sanctify and save that which is lost.

    When will we come together as one, “Perfectly one”.

  18. Alienated – your comment above is well written and I thank you for your links.

    Various voyages were taken from the original posting topic leading to many interesting destinations and exoitic islands. It would take Christopher Columbus, Fleet Admiral Nimitz and even Caption Jake Sparrow a life time of sailing to navigate through those waters successfully. Those voyages are part of blogs, interesting to read and contribute to learning – but I want to sail from the port from which we began at the top of this page.

    Here is my contribution – focusing on one portion of the post [with some interpretations] followed by scripture references to highlight my interpretations of the coming end of the age and the rapture “story” that is expounded upon by fiction authors like those of Left Behind and The Late Great Planet Earth (he offered a rapture window date too).

    As you know Alienated, I tend to be opinionated and abrupt to the point of “abhorrent”.

    So, Brother and Sister in Christ: “Ships ahoy!”

    Here is a portion of the original posting with some [interpretations].

    “For you [believers: the 7 Churches of Rev 2/3] must check yourself and look back on your life [assessment of the 7 Churches leads to a call from the Lord: “Repent”]. Are you ready [for My return]? Focus on Me [Christ the King of kings, Lord of lords]! You [“you” as a member of the Body, a member of one of the 7 Churches]are focusing on the rapture [taken out of this world and the coming Tribulation/Day of the Lord] but you are not caring about what is in your life [idols – spots/blemishes] or what you need to take care of in your life [idols and any of your priorities, which you place above Me – the head of the Church]what you need to take care of in your life [see verses below].

    So, shipmates – are ye ready?

    “Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” (2 Corinthians 7:1, NJKV).

    “Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Lament and mourn and weep! Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up” (James 4:9-10, NJKV).

    “Beloved, I implore you as aliens and strangers and exiles [in this world] to abstain from the sensual urges (the evil desires, the passions of the flesh, your lower nature) that wage war against the soul. Conduct yourselves properly (honorably, righteously) among the Gentiles, so that, although they may slander you as evildoers, [yet] they may by witnessing your good deeds [come to] glorify God in the day of inspection [when God shall look upon you wanderers as a pastor or shepherd looks over his flock]” (1 Peter 2:11-12, AMP).

    The first direct message to the Churches in Revelations 2 and 3, from our Good Shepherd is to “repent”. Repent means: stop, think and turnaround from selfishness, pride of life and “sinful ways” and return to God and the path of righteousness – the narrow way.

    “The [Holy] Spirit and the bride (the church, the true Christians) say, Come! And let him who is listening say, Come! And let everyone come who is thirsty [who is painfully conscious of his need of those things by which the soul is refreshed, supported, and strengthened]; and whoever [earnestly] desires to do it, let him come, take, appropriate, and drink the water of Life without cost” (Revelations 22:16-17, AMP).

    Bottom line (in my opinion): the “rapture” event is for the “bride” (see the parable of the 10 virgins followed by other parables). But you see – the bridal party is ready to receive Him into their house (on earth). Notice, the groom comes into their house, door closes. He does not leaves with the 5 virgins, taking them “away” to the house He built under the eye of The Father (in heaven). There is no “rapture” within this parable – is there? There are other parables to read, giving additional insight into the “end of the age”. I think it is important to read the other parables (as a collection) to get the BIG picture – pay close attention to the “wheat/tares” with the parable of the “one taken (wheat) one left (tare)”.

    Also, the rapture event of the NT is found in Acts 8 and this believer was moved really quickly from one place on the planet to another. That is an interesting application of the Word “rapture” – when considering the elect is gathered together from the 4 corners of the earth, immediately after the tribulation.

    Please consider this – read the Word as it is written – in the order it is written.

    “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shed its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn and beat their breasts and lament in anguish, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliancy and splendor]. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the four winds, [even] from one end of the universe to the other” (Matthew 24: 29-31, AMP).

    I believe we should not focus on a “rapture” out of here as some form of escape or in absence of experiencing “Tribulation”, but prepare (a bride without spot or rankle) for His return when He comes in the clouds with the army of heaven behind Him.

    He will protect His bride (the 5 virgins prepared and within the house). It the tares that are taken out/burned up. It is at the last trumpet (7th trumpet of Rev) when the dead in Christ rise first and then, we who are alive, are gather up to Him – as He returns!

    Before He comes, we must “overcome” and the key overcoming is found in Rev 12:11.

    The next few years (about 4) are going to be very Tribulationish for non-believers as I apply Malachi, chapter 4 to believers.

    How was that Al?

    Blessings – Psalms 43.

    • Holy Cow there DJ,

      I guess that you posted this twice by mistake huh? (or eh?)
      Since I’m Canadian.

      I replied to your above post.

      • Yes – I hit “reply” to Al, but wanted it to appear as a new post. Emphasis added by accident – not intentional.
        What ya think of the post from the land of hockey, large football fields and lots of oil to move? Eh?

  19. DJ
    That was well stated. One disagreement. The righteous, cannot witness God’s wrath, as was the case with Lot and Noah was sealed in his ark, and not allowed to open the windows. Otherwise we will become part of that wrath, as lot’s wife did. Whether we are removed by the Lord or surrounded by the Lord at that time, I do not know? But I see the wrath beginning at the sixth seal. Nonetheless, Our eyes must stay fixed on Him.

    • Wrath example – Egpyt. There is no record of the 10 plagues (Wrath of God) having any negative impact on the children of Isreal. Zip. Zero. Nanda. Frogs to blood water to Death Angel. They were “covered” by the blood of the Old Covenant placed over the doors of their home.
      Noah was protected from the flood by entering into “the ark” designed by God and God shut the door. Noah even had to wait 7 long days (intersting number) before the wrath fell and the ark came to be a life saving ship for the one our Heavenly Father called “righteous” and his family, providing a way – protection, provision and peace during the greatest Wrath event (to date) on the face of the earth.
      Im texting and may return to later…..
      Thanks for your reply.
      Is your understanding of Wrath the last 3.5 years of 7 year Trib, the Great Day of the Lord, at the end of the age or some other definded period that you write as God’s Wrath?

      • Sometime after the abomination of desolation which should mark the mid point. I cannot say if this is full 3.5 years or shorter time? The first 9 plagues were “tribulation”, only the last was “wrath”. Hence the “closed doors”. “Pharaoh will not Listen to you, That MY WONDERS may be multiplied in the Land of Egypt.” (Exodus 11:9) Yes, Great DAY OF THE LORD

        • Thanks for helping me with Egypt. So, 9 were tribulation and #10 passed over them. Helps my case to understand that the children of Israel “endured” a period of tribulation and then God’s Wrath. At the end, walked out of bondage toward the Promised Land with recompense.
          As for God’s Wrath to come – thanks. I’m investigating how long the elect will witness the events but not experience them (3.5 yrs, one 360 day year or one month (short period of time) at the end of the Great Tribulation.

  20. greetings to all: Those who are of the mindset that it is their responsibility to make themselves perfect (without spot or wrinkle) invariably go about taking inventory of other believers imperfections, flaws and failures as confirmation that these others are not the chosen of God and then go on to rationalize their own corruptions resulting in the delusion that they have attained status that they have in fact not attained. This is the state of the pharisee. Gal 5:4 Trying to make yourself right with God by the law you are fallen from grace and cut off from Christ. The early church had already been established and yet Paul struggled to get them to understand grace. Legalism is the default condition of humanity and as Paul admonished them that they were still in the infancy of their new “creation” evidenced by the displays of their humanity i.e. jelousy quarreling being divided ect. he never implied that they werent saved or would at some point lose their salvation if their performance didn’t improve. Thank God for that. Grace is one of those difficult dynamics to comprehend as it is of a different substance than that which the human intellect is familiar with. I believe that this is what Peter meant when he said that some of Pauls writings were hard to understand and were distorted or misapplied. Grace as viewed from humanity does indeed appear as freedom to sin as Pauls critics accused him of teaching. Grace however when viewed from the spirit realm (new creation) is freedom from sin and only those who are in the new creation can understand this spiritually. There was a point in eternity when satan was performing magnificently for God yet Jesus referred to him as a liar and murderer from the beginning jn:8:44 combining his former state with his latter. In our current states we all harbor sin in our humanity 1jn 1:8 yet God sees us in our latter state even though at present we are not operating in that capacity. By Gods declaration satan was pronounced a liar and a murderer even before he occupied that status. By Gods declaration we are pronounced without spot or wrinkle even before we attain that status. By grace through the blood of Christ. Holiness is from God not something that we cultivate our humanity to become. Under the microscope of scrutiny in the hands of the originator of this topic my humanity would be found to be woefully deficient with SPOTS and WRINKLES. Under Gods scrutiny however the new creation that I became when I accepted Christ is the righteousness of God holy perfect without spot or wrinkle one of the redeemed that he is coming for as his bride. Thank you Jesus for the blood that paid in full the penalty for our transgressions.

    All things for Gods glory: Walt

    • Hello Walter,
      It is not our responsibility to make ourselves perfect, It is the work of the Lord that sanctifies us. Our “Job” is to get out his way, And let him do his work in us. He is the Potter, we are the Clay. The clay cannot make itself into a vessel, only the Potter can.

      Waiting…patiently.

      ” Blessed is the man who makes the Lord his trust, who does not turn to the proud, to those who go astray after a lie!.” Psalm 40:4

    • Hi Walter,

      Very well articulated, and Dru, I also agree with your commentary as well.

      The discussion regarding what we theologically refer to as the rapture, or the resurrection, is different than that of Salvation though.
      Paul knew that through the Lords blood and grace that he had received Salvation. Yet as expressed in Philippians 3, he wasn’t as confident regarding the resurrection.

      There appears to be a distinction between the two in which the resurrection is the prize which we are to strive to attain.

      Shalom & Be Blessed

      • Alienated
        Being ready means submitting to his will. If called upon to be martyred as a testimony, or being protected from his wrath, Both are the bride of Christ. I really would like to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, But that seems less and less likely.
        Paul Also was hoping he would be found worthy to suffer for Christ.

        So yes, I agree, salvation is different than resurrection. But Martyrdom during the Fifth seal, or whenever is equivalent to ressurection, as both are the bride of Christ, and have submitted to the groom. Martydom, however, is not something that is “sought” by the man, only “called” to by God. I Hope you understand this distinction.
        I Am sick and tired of the notion that those people who are “Left behind” supposedly, and forced to choose the mark of the beast or death, are somehow not of the bride of Christ. This is unbiblical.

        “and without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” Heb 11:6
        “blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Matt. 5:11-12)
        ” I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of this world, Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth….And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth” John 17:15-19
        “You are my friends if you do what I command you….You did not choose me but I chose you…” John15:14,16
        “…as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her with the washing of water with the word, so that he mightpresent the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be HOLY and without blemish.” Ephesians 5:25-27

        Be blessed

        • But for those that take the time to read it in it’s entirety, it may prove to be informative, for those that don’t ….. they may just miss a nugget or two?

          Shalom & Be Blessed.

          • ?????

            I haven’t got a clue why that happened?
            I will try again, and see if it will post the whole message this time and not just a portion of it.

            Hi Dru,

            I’m going to try to answer a question that you posed, (or rather a statement that you made), at the bottom of the thread. It is addressed to DJ, because I am providing more information regarding the parable of the Ten Virgins, and some additional material regarding the real topic of Marianne’s post.

            I think that within my reply, I can address both you and DJ in one post.

            Of course it will be long! (what’s new there?)
            But for those that take the time to read it in it’s entirety, it may prove to be informative, for those that don’t ….. they may just miss a nugget or two?

            Shalom & Be Blessed.

    • May the Lord find us all ready

      • Amen to that Marianne,

        I pray that the LORD our God, the glorious ‘Elohiym, reveal the truth of His word to all who sincerely seek Him here, (and around the world).
        That through the Spirits guidance, a consensus in the Body that truly loves Yeshua can be reached regarding topics that are misunderstood and are the cause of division. It is amazing to me to think, that at some time in the future, that this will eventually come to fruition, on that very special day that He eventually returns for those that are His.

        13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
        14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:13,14.

        To all Shalom & Be Blessed

  21. There will be no rapture .at least not for a very long time .What will there be is a new Earth the new Paradise promised by God long ago to the faithful who will overcome the tribulation .(The ones that will survive) .so do not aspect to be lifted up into heaven just yet but prepare to die instead .many of us is most likely be killed not just by the ant-Christ but by the WARNING which we all have to experince . Lots of people will die upon seeing how foolish they have been all their lives and how they have been deceived by Satan .so please put your soul affairs in order .forget your wealth .Even if you survive .All will be taken from you that providing that you will not lose it before in the great earth quake which will soon come right after the warning,.

  22. Jes, do you actually read the word of God. It is the law that has been obsolete. And if you really want to know the truth regarding the law vs grace, then you will read the following Scriptures. I’m just the messenger. The following is the word of God. I’ll say what Paul said, “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.”

    Acts 13:38-39
    Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.

    Acts 15:5-11
    Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith, Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    Romans 3:19-24
    Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been mad known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

    Romans 3:27-28
    Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

    Romans 4:4-5
    Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

    Romans 4:13-15
    It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Romans 7:1-6
    Do you not know, brothers — for I am speaking to men who know the law — that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

    Romans 9:30-32
    What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith, but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

    Romans 10:4
    Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

    Romans 14:5-6
    One man considers one day more sacred than another; and another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He, who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 15:56
    The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 2:15-16
    We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

    Galatians 2:19-21
    For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.

    Galatians 3:1-4
    You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit , are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

    Galatians 3:10
    All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written” “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”

    Galatians 3:13-14
    Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree. He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    Galatians 3:15-19
    Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to his seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.
    What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.

    Galatians 3:23-25
    Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

    Galatians 5:1-4
    It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

    Ephesians 2:14-15
    For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations.

    Colossians 2:13-17
    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. (Food law, Feasts and holy days)

    Hebrews 7:18-19
    The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

    Hebrews 8:13
    By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    IICorinthians 3:6
    He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    • Hey Don,

      There be some Spirit filled “fire”. Stoke that fire brother.
      HOT! ……. hot, hot hot.

      Shalom

      • Morning Alienated,

        Maybe I should change my name to Alienated, ha! Hope all is well with you. As you know, the word of God states that the time will come–and that time is here–when men and woman will not put up with sound doctrine and this is happening all around us on every level and on eternal life threatening issues, the law being one of them. As you well know, the word of God is clear in that, forgiveness of sins is by the grace of God through the shed blood of Christ apart from the works of the law. It is a free gift! We are credited with righteousness through faith, having the same faith as father Araham. So for those who are putting themselves under the law, they are attempting to earn salvation by the works of the law. Neither are they acknowledging Scripture.

        This is the same problem that Paul and the rest of the apostles were having during the onset of the church and that being getting people to understand that this is a new covenant, that Christ came to fulfill the law, that is, he met the righteous requirements of the law perfectly and brought that covenant to its completion at the cross. Jesus did not come to perpetuate the law, for it has already been demonstrated that no one will be justified (made righteous) by observing the law. During the first covenant, God required observance of the law combined with faith. In this new covenant of Grace (Unmerrited favor) salvation is by faith apart from the works of the law. In fact–as you already know–putting ones self under the law will keep you from eternal life and that because you are not trusting solely on the completed work of Christ for you salvation. This is exactly why the Lord says that many will try to enter in, but won’t be able to, and that because they will have trusted in their own works instead of trusting in him who justifies freely through Christ.

        My hope is that for those who have placed their hope in the works of the law, that God would open their eyes to the truth that is found in the shed blood of Christ and that is that he freed us from the law that stood apposed to us and as Peter said regarding the law of Moeses “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?” Or as Paul said to the Galatians regarding the law, “How is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles?”

        Yours in Christ

      • Hello again Alienated,

        If you replied to my earlier post, I haven’t been home yet to receive the message, but I thought that I would share this with you and everyone. Regarding this issue about the law vs grace, I love the way the New Living Translation (NLT) puts it, especially the last part in parenthesis:

        “Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)”

        So true!

        Your in Christ

    • Did I forget? But I’m sure I said GOODBYE to you.

      I also said “RIP OFF” all the pages of the OT from your bible and I would like to add “RIP OFF” and DISCARD the rest of the books as well, but preserve only the “writings of Saul of Tarsus” your one and only favorite of the Bible.

      Ahhhh! Now that is so much lighter. O, so much less of a burden not only on the hands but on the heart and mind as well. So much more “Freedom” now that the “LAW” is gone in the waste bin.

      Don’t bother responding for I have no time to waste in responding to useless responses. Frankly, I read only the first two lines then deleted your comment. Hence, I shake the dust of my feet and the dust of my clothes.
      Continue being a “Christian” rather than a Proselyte, you will know the end result when you meet the King face to face… for sure it will be too late then.

      Goodbye!!

      • What you said is ridiculous Jes, because I never said that the OT was not the word of God. The NT supports the OT and vise versa. The problem is that you and others have not recognized that there is a righteousness from God apart from observing the law, which the prophets and the law testify to and Abraham was the example. He was credited with righteousness for his faith apart from the works of the law, since the law had not yet been given and we are his spiritual offspring that was spoken of, not those who are of the law, but those who are of the same faith as Abraham. Embrace the whole word of God, including the writings of Paul, for the Lord appointed him an apostle.

        • ~~~ You see dmcal, the point I’m trying to make is that your are ‘CHRISTIAN’ and I am NOT. I study in the Hebraic perspective and you study in the ‘Christian’ perspective. How the Hebrew teachers explain – Christian preachers can’t interpret the same way (some do most don’t) – simple reason they have no knowledge of Hebrew – that makes light years of difference. Similarly my understanding of the Word TORAH explained even in the most simple words, you will never understand because your mind is embedded with the word LAW. You’ve got to get this ‘LAW’ word out of your mind and see the in depth meaning of the word TORAH. The very word LAW sounds harsh (because the laws of the world are harsh). Change your Christian thinking, study in the Hebraic perspective and learn and enjoy the difference.
          ~~~ Read your comments again, where you clearly wrote that the law was made obsolete and now you are changing it to “I never said that the OT was not the word of God.” I agree that you did not write that, BUT you did write that the law was made obsolete by Yeshua(Jesus).
          ~~~ The TORAH is what I am defending and will continue to do so till I breathe my last … for the TORAH is (YESHUA=JESUS) Himself(Jn1.1). He is my life without Him I’m not even the dust of this earth. While I am focusing on Yeshua, you are focusing on the rituals i.e. blood sacrifices and so on… that is NOT what was on my mind because from very young I was brought up to believe that Yeshua’s bloodshed and death was the final atonement for the sins of mankind – a free gift to only THOSE WHO BELIEVED IN HIM. Why do Christians shirk away when they hear the word TORAH? Why do they think that it is another religion? Most Christians ask me so is that your religion? and then they argue like Jesus is all theirs, and yet shunning the Jews. This is the height of ignorance that makes me see red.
          ~~~ Another point I’d like to make is; let’s say if Paul is really an apostle and he wrote those books, some of the things that he mentions is a repeat of what is already in the OT & Bks of the prophets & in the books of Matt.Mk.Lk & John. So what’s so important about Paul here? Most of the things that are to be followed, Paul says it’s not necessary. Frankly I am not a fan of Paul … I know that Paul was not personally trained by Yeshua like the 12 Apostles. Paul was more or less the same age as Yeshua but they had never met. Also the Bk of Rev. tells us that each name of the 12 Apostles will be written on the 12 gates of the City of Yahweh … Now tell me where will (the 13th Apostle)Paul’s name be written?
          ~~~ Honestly, I don’t want to carry on with Paul’s topic – please switch to the subject article.
          Shalom

          • Hey Jes,
            You asked, what is so important about Paul? He was the apostle appointed to the gentiles. Most of us are Gentile believers here. We do not fully understand the hebrew language and culture which is important to understanding the Word of God. The same can be said of those who are Jewish, trying to understand gentile believers. Because our cultures differ, does not mean the gospel differs, only the perspective which we bring to that understanding. Gentiles relate better to Paul, while the jewish followers relate more with the other twelve apostles. But we are all a new creation in Christ (Yeshua), and should try to understand what gifts each can bring to increase our understanding of the Gospel. What we are seeing here with your argument with Don is one dogma fighting another dogma.

            It is only making each of you “dig in” to your defensive trenches, and not come to a conscensus and fuller understanding. You conclude with “shalom” on all your comments, Peace cannot come until a cease fire is declared. Perhaps then, what you are saying will not appear as bullets, but rather as rose petals flung at each other. Both you and Don are making some wonderful points, but because each sees the other as an enemy, it is of no benefit. I say this, because I have been in these arguments before, If you go look up some of my older comments and interactions with Al. I know speaking for myself, declaring a cease fire has yielded much fruit.

            This goes for Don too.

            • Hi dru,
              I don’t want to hear or discuss Paul anymore. I think everyone who is involved in this topic should cut it off.
              I agree gentiles and even Jews do not understand Hebrew but since Yahweh has given us an opportunity to study in the Hebraic perspective through many great Jewish scholars/teachers/rabbis which has been passed down to them through many generations we must make an effort to study and understand what Yahweh wants from us. Yahweh will not come to us, we have to go to Him. I know how important Torah is to me, my ancestors were tortured for the sake of Torah by the Bloody Portuguese Inquisition. The same thing but unfathomably worst is going to happen soon and this time live or die I am on the frontlines for the sake of TORAH. So I don’t need to be taught Paul’s gospels. If I don’t follow Paul I WON’T go to hell – If I don’t follow Yeshua I WILL go to hell .. Yeshua is the one who shed His blood to save me NOT Paul.

              a) I hold nothing personal against dmcal/don – but I will always defend all that dmcal says is made obsolete. b) I don’t need Christians to teach me when they themselves don’t follow every word from the Bible. Modern day Christianity is Dispensational and majority of churches are become apostate. Think why?

              As for the word Shalom I am used to writing/saying that but from now on I will make it a point NOT TO. The word Shalom does not just mean Hi or Hello but much, much more than that. I guess it is not meant to be used on just anybody for it’s a sacred word.

              I really don’t want to waste my time on this anymore so please stop responding on this Paul issue. Stick to the subject article.
              Goodbye!

              • So let me get this straight, You feel that Yahweh has revealed to you everything, and to someone like Don, who is not Jewish, he has revealed nothing? How do you know, with certainty, that what Don is saying on some issues, is not what Yahweh wants? Are You claiming that you know the fullness of Yahweh?
                IF so, you are claiming to be something you are not? a god!

                May I suggest you read Yahweh’s response to Job again, so that you may once again appreciate the Immensity of Yahweh (Job 38-40:2)

                • dru,
                  Just what the heck are you talking about.
                  This topic is going on uselessly. From the Sabbath keeping it went onto Paul’s teachings, and now you are onto something else.
                  Why don’t you just take a hike go to the beach and fly a kite spend your time there but please get off my back.

                  I’m not visiting this page again. I’m not going to waste my precious time on dumb comments … This is a final goodbye.
                  I’ll be just deleting your comments from now on.

                  Why don’t you go back the previous article onto Steve and try to convert him from his New Age Religion instead of being a thorn in my flesh.

                  This is a FINAL GOODBYE and I hope you know the meaning of this.

  23. Jes

    Listen you have sent me things in the past to help my understanding on certain items. I am not saying this is going to make you change your religious teaching.

    But I have hope that it will provide foundation understanding to the Christian beliefs and that it might give you some insight to where we see Jesus was concealed in the Torah / (Old Testament scriptures).

    These items include the Gentile Bible Old Testament books. Obviously they are more then Torah. Even thou the Gentiles are all gentiles we do
    not all agree on what a verse might say when we all read it together. I
    think you would say the same goes for the Israelites, as we are various secs and it affects our thoughts.

    I have not been home tonight and left earlier today, but I sense there has been a big discussion here today. So I hope your not burned out on the subject already and will indulge me a few minutes.

    Anyway I would like to hear any comments regarding these scriptures.

    Shalom

    The Old Testament Scriptures—The concealing

    The Jews coming out of Egypt: Deuteronomy 29:14-21

    Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath, But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day. (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by, And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them. Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood; And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imaginations of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven. And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law.

    The Law: Deuteronomy 5:1-27

    And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgements which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
    The LORD talked with you face to face in that mount out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying, am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD they God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD they God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor they maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought.

    The breaking of the First Covenant:

    Zechariah 11:1-6

    1. Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.
    2. Howl, fir tree; for the cedar is fallen; because the mighty are
    spoiled: howl,O ye oaks of Bashan; for the forest of the vintage is
    come down.
    3. There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is
    spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of
    Jordan is spoiled.
    4. Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter;
    5. Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and
    they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and
    their own shepherds pity them not.
    6. For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD:
    but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour’s hand,
    and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and
    out of their hand I will not deliver them.
    7. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock.
    And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the
    other I called Bands; and I fed the flock.
    8. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed
    them, and their soul also abhorred me.
    9. Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that
    that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one
    the flesh of another.
    10. And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might
    break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
    11. And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that
    waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
    12. And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if
    not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
    13. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly
    price that I was prised at of them.
    14. Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break
    the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
    15. And the LORD said unto me, take unto thee yet the instruments of
    a foolish shepherd.
    16. For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit
    those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal
    that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall
    eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
    17. Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! The sword shall
    be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean
    dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

    Old Testament Concealing—Declared His coming from the Beginning:

    Genesis 3:15
    And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon they belly shalt thou go, and dust shall thou eat all the days of thy life. And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between they seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    2 Samuel 7:12-13
    “And when thy day be fulfilled, and thou (David) shall sleep with they fathers, I will set up they seed after thee, which shall proceed out of they bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.”

    Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, through thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler is Israel: whose going forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

    Isaiah 9:6-7
    “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be not end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”

    Jesus the son of God:

    Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Psalm 89:26, 27
    “He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.”

    Psalm 2:7
    “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

    Matthew 1:22-23
    “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring for a son, and they shall his Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

    Romans 1:3
    “Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.”

    Why did God send Jesus?

    Isaiah 61:1-2
    The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me: because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek, he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, too proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD.”

    Isaiah 50:4
    “The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakens morning by morning, he wakens mine ear to hear as the learned.”

    Matthew 112:22-23
    “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed and said, is not this the son of David?

    The prophesy foretold of Jesus being rejected:

    Psalm 22:16-17
    “For dogs have compassed me the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.”

    Psalms 22:18
    “They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.”

    Psalm 22:6,7
    “But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head.”

    Isaiah 53:7
    “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.

    Jesus Christ the Redeemer:

    Isaiah 41:14
    Do not be afraid, O worm Jacob, O little Israel, for I myself will help you.” declares the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

    Isaiah 53:4-6
    “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”

    Isaiah 50:20
    “And the redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from their transgressions in Jacob, saith the LORD.

    Roman 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

    Acts 17:28
    For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Psalm 19:14
    Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

    Psalm 18:2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer, my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

    Zechariah 4:7
    “What are you, O mighty mountain? before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!”

    Isaiah 47:4
    As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

    Jeremiah 50:34
    Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name, He will vigorously defend their cause so that he may bring rest to their land, but unrest to those who live in Babylon.

    Ephesians
    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace.

    1 Peter 1:18 For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain. Conversations received by tradition from your fathers;

    Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

    Hebrews 9:12
    He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

    Christ is Ascended into Heaven

    Micah 7:7-8
    “Therefore I will look unto the LORD: I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me. Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy when I fall, I shall arise: when I sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me.

    Psalm 16:10-11
    “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: neither will thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at the right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

    Acts 2:29-32
    “Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne, he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, where of we all are witnesses.”

    Psalm 16:11
    “Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.”

    Psalms 110:2
    “The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

    Acts 3:21
    “Whom (Jesus) the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

    Jeremiah 31:10
    “Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.”

    Jeremiah 30:3
    “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.”

    Old testament prophesy on the law:

    Ezekiel 7:26
    Mischief shall come upon mischief, and rumor shall be upon rumor: then shall they seek a vision of the prophet but the law shall perish from the priest, and counsel from the elders.

    Malachi 2:9
    “So I have caused you to be despised and humiliated before all the people, because you have not followed my ways but have shown partiality in matters of the law.”

    Jesus Christ Fulfilled the Law:

    Matthew 5:17
    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: Ia m not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    Romans 3:31
    Do we, then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all Rather, we uphold the law.

    Matthew 7:12
    So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

    For the law was given through Moses and grace and truth came through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Function of grace

    Without grace man can not be reconciled to God. So if you look at Romans 3:23-24
    “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

    Roman 3 goes on to say that justice required atoning by sacrifice, which Jesus did with his death. In his death for us he provided the blood that gives grace. He became the propitiation for all men who will receive his gift.

    “Why is Grace significant to Christians:–Grace is unmerited favor”

    Romans 3:24
    Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    John 1: 14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Proverbs 3:34 he mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.

    Romans 5:8
    For God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    Romans 5:21 “just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for you are not under the law, but under grace.

    Romans 6:18 “have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.”

    Romans 6:1-2 “ Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!”
    Instead, you should show your appreciation for God’s grace by living your life in a way that is pleasing to God.

    Romans 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God;

    Kindness and favor

    Ephesians 2:4-9
    But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by Grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his Grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by Grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

    1 Corinthians 15:10
    But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

    2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.

    1 Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful now he builds.

    James4:6
    But he gives more garce. Therefore he says, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble.

    1Peter5:5
    Young men, in the same way be submisive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”

    Hebrews 4:16 Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

    2 Timothy 2:1
    Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

    2 Timothy 4:17
    But the Lord stood at my side and gave me strength, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the Gentiles might hear it. And I was delivered from the lion’s mouth.

  24. Johan

    I was wondering if you would indulge me with your thoughts on the European Union. I take it from some of your comments that you believe
    they will be part of the beast / kings? Did I understand what you wrote
    to Dru?

    I was told and raised to believe that the “one world goverment system” would more then likley be the the European nations. But since that time lots has happened. The USA is not the same nation as it was 15-20 years ago. Also in the past 5 years the nations of Islam have come straight and center head-on with extreme boldness. Iran specifically
    has no fear, and does not mind saying he hates Israel and the USA.

    I can not remember why we felt that it was the nations in europe. It seems that it was a logic thing, instead of anything scripturally based.
    It seems that we permitted the original Roman Empire line-up to point us in that direction. Simply put identifying who Mystery Harlot Babylon was lead to the thoughts on the one world government system.

    Is this the reason you said to Dru the 10 kings are the nations of Europe?

    If that is so, then is it not possible that the 10 one hour kings are Islam?
    Aren’t you the one who did the study on the Islamic nations also?
    (forgive me for not remembering, I have had some memory issues in the past 5 months due to my husbands passing)

    Here is my issue from a scriptual standpoint the kingdoms in Europe have been there since the first go around of the Roman Empire. How do they become kings with out kingdoms for the last hour?

    Is it that you have found a scripture where you have been able to interpret that parts of europe will be destroyed? Thereby the destruction will move the power to other authority figures, ie as the Middle east over this past year.

    The statement clearly says they have no kingdom but have been made kings? This implies to me that someone has given them authority, but they have not legal or offical charge. In other words they are operationg under rogue authority. To me the middle east situation looks like the description given in Revelations,

    In other words an uprising in any part of the world, where there are the number of kings displaced as are in the middle east it could then fit the scripture, right?

    The most frightening thing is that we know who did this thing in the middle east and it is most frightening. I remember after I dreamed about these events, that Marianne and I started watching for thing to happen. We watched the travel schedules of the people identifiable in the dream and the dream was spot on. Scarey because this thing seems to be the next step to pouriong out of the mark of the beast. But we all know to get this nation to go along with such oppression, they will have to present some form of fear that includes a catastrophe like 911. I am wondering if the close of time is really that close at hand? It seems to be even closer than I thought.

    So again my questions: If you gleaned from the word that Europe is the home of the 5-10 kings (based on sciptual lineup) without kingdoms? What did you determine was happening that they are no longer in control of the exsisting nations?
    Are was your determination of the kings identity, consideration inclusion from the Old Roman Empire?

    Hope this makes sense.

    • pattiefarm,
      I don’t want to read your comment that’s like a book. Sorry no time. I read your name and saw that you have responded to me. I don’t listen to those who dream and claim to have visions, you are one of them, it’s sickens me. The Word of Yah forbids us to listen to people like you so save your preaching for someone else.

      To you also its a final GOODBYE you people are for war each one thinks you are better than the other. Go back to your dreams and visions.

      • I agree that people should keep their comments short, if they expect others to read them.

      • Jes,
        I was trying to bring peace. If you read my comments above, you will see this. obviously this backfired. I am sorry, and will not comment with you again.
        Shalom.

        You have a lot to teach us, but a teacher cannot properly teach until they can be taught themselves.

    • Pattie
      This is in response to your question on 10 kings.
      Here is my theory
      There are two sets of ten kings referred to. one is regional, one is global.
      One is led by the dragon, and is regional, while one is led by the Antichrist, who is given the authority of the dragon.

      I outlined the middle eastern, regional one. Note that there were in its final manifestation, three kings
      here is how I see the global kings
      Three middle eastern kings
      1. King of the North, Dragon, sunni Mahdi
      2. King of the east, Shia
      3. King of the south, Saudi arabia/muslim North Africa

      Eurasian kings
      4. European Union
      5. Russian federation
      6. Oriental east asia, China, indo china, Korea

      The rest.
      7. Oceana, Australia, japan, indonesia, possibly india
      8. African union, Non-Muslim Africa
      9. South american union
      10. North american union

      I am still working on the details. But I think these 10 will be king for an hour, and then give their authority to the Ac.

  25. dru,
    I didn’t see any peace but clearly more strife coming in. From the Sabbath issue it has been rolling into different issues, it’s a sheer waste of time for me. Frankly, I wasn’t really interested in this ‘rapture’ article but while reading thru – the Sabbath issue caught my eye and that’s how I got on to it.

    Further, I am not a teacher, preacher, dreamer, visionary, whatever…. I just get ticked off when someone says the Law(Torah) is made obsolete. However, you don’t have to learn from me there’s plenty info out there in books, and the vast internet …. so help yourself. I just like to share what I learn … we all will never finish learning the Bible even if eons and eons go by – that how long and deep the Word of Yahweh is.

    Have a nice day!!

    • if the Torah was completely obsolete, murder would be ok.

      • Thanks Marianne,
        No finger pointed at anyone please but this is what Yahweh wants from all of us:
        Psalm 1:
        1 – Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of scoffers.
        2 – But his delight is in the LAW(TORAH) of the LORD; and in his law(Torah) doth he meditate day and night.
        3 – And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth its fruit in season; its leaf also shall not wither; and whatever he doeth shall prosper.
        PSALM 119:4 – Thou hast commanded us thy precepts, (TEACHINGS, PRINCIPLES, RULE, GUIDELINES, INSTRUCTIONS, LAWS) that we should observe them diligently.
        There are lots of Scriptures like these in the Psalms.
        Be Blessed

      • Marianne
        I said i would not reply to Jes, so I will reply to you. Murder is NEVER ok, But it can be justified (self defence, protecting innocents from a tyrant). The Law(torah) is the Word of Yahweh, But we live in a fallen world, And the voice of Yahweh calls for the Law as written in stone to be violated for righteousness sake. This does not negate the Law. It is still there, it condemns us of murder. David, though righteous in God’s eyes, was not Holy (set apart) enough to build the temple, for he had too much blood on his hands. Solomon, who ruled by wisdom was set apart to build the temple. Yet even he succumbed to sin and unrighteousness. Spiritually, Jesus brought holiness, and righteousness together, but the flesh (Material) is still fallen. Holiness, and righteousness do not and will not mesh until the material sinful flesh is disposed of. This is sanctification, which will never be complete till the second coming. We ALL make these decisions daily. Righteous anger, white lies so as to avoid harm, etc. We all violate the law daily, for ALL have sinned. But Jesus imputes HIS righteousness on us, because his blood was sufficient to cover ALL our sins. It is not the Law That saves, but it is the Law as fulfilled in Christ that saves. We do not worship an Idol made of stone, but a living God. The same is true of the fourth commandment. Simply put, we are in the day of preparation for the great sabbath, and have double the preparation to do for the sabbath. Am I dishonoring the sabbath, by preparing for the great sabbath???? One answer is righteous, the other holy, neither are evil. What is worse? not being prepared? There are two Olive trees in Zechariah 4:1-10, not just one serving the Spirit of the Lord.

  26. Hi Don.

    Just a brief comment.

    As ever you make excellent thought provoking comments, and your defense of Paul was truly eloquent…thank you! (this in no way is directed at Jes; blessings)

    Would just like to throw in a couple of verses, for the time being, and
    keeps things relatively simple.

    Sin is the transgression of the law………1 John 3:4

    The law is the knowledge of sin………….Rom 3:20

    For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight,
    but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous….Rom 2:13

    Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all!, rather, we uphold the law………Rom 3:31

    You said/quoted: “The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no
    law to break!”

    Well, if there were no law to break, there would be no sin, because sin is the transgression of the law. You cannot separate the two.

    Grace under the New Covenant is the undeserved kindness of God, displayed through Jesus’ ransom blood sacrifice, who is now the sacrificial lamb and High priest, which covers us for our sins and provides the means for forgiveness where true repentance is evident.

    Repentance is the act of requesting forgiveness from God thorough Jesus
    (high priest) together with a resolve to not continue in sin, made possible
    by the power of the Holy Spirit. Being empowered by the spirit does not
    overide temptation and the propensity to sin, but provides the power to
    resist, where there is desire to resist.

    This replaces grace in the form of the propitiation processs under the
    Mosaic Covenant.(blood sacrifices and high priest mediataion) but with
    differences, being: our sins past and present are covered by the blood
    of Jesus; we are empowered by the Spirit to resist temptation; but most
    important of all; are guranteed eternal life if we exercise faith in Jesus
    by walikng in his footsteps and keeping his commandments. (Matt. 19:17)

    However, this position of grace is not immunity from sin; therefore, where
    sin is committed and not repented of, then such a person is no longer under
    grace, and can be said to have fallen from grace. True repentance keeps us under grace. Falling from grace is akin to rejection of Jesus and the
    breaking of his commandments. (aspects of Law)

    The bottom line: Sin is the transgression of the Law. (the moral and
    spiritual laws.)

    Whist under grace our sins are covered, therefore we are not
    transgressing the Law; we are upholding it, so are not subject
    to it.

    Out of grace, we sin, and therefore break the Law, which makes
    us subject to it, and thus judged by it.

    Conclusion:
    Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all,
    rather, we UPHOLD the law…Rom 3:3 (emphasis mine)

    There is not one verse in God’s word that catagorically states that the Law
    has been dispensed with. But there is one that says it has not.
    But commonsense should prevail in this matter, from the premise that: so long as there is sin, there must be the Law, because Law is the knowlegde of sin.

    Dispense with the Law and and you dispense with sin!!!
    So it does look like the Law is here to stay until the day of incorruptibilty!!

    Don, I would like to ask you this: On what basis do you think sinners will
    be judged, if there is no Law?…Thanks.

    God bless.

    • Hi Marianne,

      My text never seems to tab properly. I have to enlarge the text when writing,
      which fills the width of the comment box, but once submitted is reduced in
      width. This makes sense, but I can’t see why some lines are extended.
      Any ideas? (No big deal; just looks untidy).

      Blessings.

    • well said Richard.

      • Dru,

        Thanks,

        Blessings.

        (p.s. you were referring to the text issue, I presume !!!)

        • Marianne,

          Re: Tabulation. I think there could be a problem with my computer
          as I have similar issues with my HtTML editor. Will have to look
          deeper. Not able to lay text out as desired without change of position.

          Just wondered if there was anything obvious that you may have encountered, since you do a lot of writing……Thanks anyway.

          • hi richard

            If you are trying to add html, like BOLD print or ITALICS, or

              underlining

            , etc. sometimes the system does not handle the commands well.

    • Hello again Richard,

      Hope all is well with you as well as with everyone else.

      Question:
      “Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all!, rather, we uphold the law”

      Answer:
      Notice the question “Do we, then, nulfify the law by this faith?” The question and answer is not inferring that we keep the Mosaic law, but rather through faith in Jesus Christ we uphold it, because we follow him. When we recognize the love of God by the sending of his Son to pay the penalty for sins, as we follow him, our disire should be not to commit any of those things that are written in the law. We follow Christ who had no sin and our attitude should be to walk as he walked. So through faith in Chirst, we uphold the law. What happens when we sin? When we sin if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, because we have a living sacrifice sitting at the right hand of the Father. Paul’s meaning most evidently is, it is one and the same God who made both Jews and Gentiles, who shall justify those of the circumcision – the believing Jews, by faith; and the uncircumcision – the believing Gentiles, by the same faith; as there is but one Savior and one atonement provided for both.

      “For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

      We are free in Christ, but let us use our freedom to not fulfill the desires of the sinful nature, but to live Godly lives in order to glorfy God.

      Question:
      “On what basis do you think sinners will be judged, if there is no Law?…Thanks. God bless.

      Answer:
      “For those who are in Christ, they will not be judged for sin, but will receive reward and will suffer loss of reward. According to God’s word, we as believer will not be judged according our sins, as Jesus has already suffered the wrath that we deserve and paid the penalty for them with his blood. Therefore, since the wages for sin have already been paid for, God is not going to require another payment. Our sins will not even be brought up, but it is what we did as Christians and with what motive we did them that will determine gain or loss of reward.

      Now, for those who die rejecting Christ, they will be judged and held accountable for all of their sins and that because they rejected Christ. They therefore have no payment for sin, no blood covering them. As the word of God says, “Whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son will not see life, for the wrath of God rests upon him.” That judgment at then end of the thousand year reign of Christ (Rev.20:11-15) is the judgment of the lost dead, those who have been in Hades since the beginning of time. They will be resurrection out of Hades and stand before him at the great white throne judgment and the books containing the actions of their lives will be opened and they will be judged according to everything that they will have done in life. Jesus said that, “Men will give an account for idle word that they shall speak.”These are those of whom the second death has power over (Rev.20:6). And anyones name not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire.

      We as followers of Christ will not be judged at that judgment, for we will have been part of the first resurrection of which, the second death will have no power over us. Also, we will have been reurrected or caught up prior to the beginning of that thousand year period.

      • Don,

        There is a sort of overlapping here. You have more or less re-iterated
        what I said about grace, forgiveness and judgement, so I presume that
        you believe that sin is punishable without the Law, namely the Ten
        Commandments, because you believe them to be obsolete?

        I understand your viewpoint, as I have wrestled with this same issue: ‘has the Law been abolished’, but have yet to see any conclusive
        proof from scripture that this is so, despite some good points you have
        made.

        We’ll agree to be in loving disagreement for the time being.

        Blessings to you

  27. Hello everyone,

    I am going to be brutely honest here. Dru, you said that Jes has alot to teach, but she is a false teacher. She fits into the class of modern day Pharisee believing and trying to convince others that we are still obligated to the law, which we are not by any means. The question was raised when those so-called believers of the Pharisee group stood up and said that the new Gentile Christians should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses. And the answer to this question overrides anything that Jes or anyone else has to say regarding their studies in Hebrew or Judaism.

    Studying the OT is a definitely a must, but it must be in agreement with the NT, which Jes’ teachings are not. In fact, they nulify the teachings of the NT. But back to the question that was raised by those Pharisees, and keep in mind that, this is Peter, James, Paul, Barnabas and other Jewish leaders, so you can’t get anymore Jewish than these and all are also church fathers. So here is their’s and the Holy Spirit’s reply to whether or not those of the new covenant (Christians) should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses:

    “With them they sent the following letter:

    The apostles and elders, your brothers,

    To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

    Greetings.

    We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.

    Farewell.

    So, in answer to the question of whether or not those of the new covenant (Christianity) should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses, the complete answer was “to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” And that was it! No abiding by the ten commandments, nothing about keeping Jewish feasts which were part of the law, nothing about keeping holy days and Sabbaths, nothing about what you can eat and what you can’t eat, etc, etc…..

    The mixing of the two covenants was exactly the meaning behind when Jesus gave the parable of new wine being poured into old wineskins. If you pour new wine into old wineskins, the skins will burst and both the wine and the skins will be ruined. By calling this covenent new, Jesus set the first one aside.

    The observance of the law is an attempt to work for salvation by perfoming the works of the law. Salvation by grace through faith demands our eyes be kept on the shed blood of Christ alone for our salvation without any help by works from us. Once you consider something that must be done to aide in salvation you are attempting to gain it by works. Jesus doesn’t need any help, as he already took care of it. Our part is faith and faith alone. If you folllow after these people, you will be alienated from Christ who fulfilled all righteousness on our behalf. We fulfill the law by following Chirst because we have his Spirit dwelling in us and his word is written on our hearts. What Jes is teching is an old issue that began at the onset of the church, but we are justified freely by his grace and believing in this is what saves us.

    Yours in Christ

    • I can agree and disagree with this.

      The law was done away with in the sense that it was the requirement for salvation.

      Salvation was by grace, and by the blood of Jesus, not by works.

      We were to still abide by the 10 commandments.

      otherwise, we would have permission to lie, steal and kill.

      not so.

  28. Hi Don,

    I agree with most of what you say. There needs to be some clarification here.

    The Ten Commandments were not called the law of Moses, but rather the law of God. We are still duty bound to keep them under grace, because they are
    applicable under the New Covenant. This is the Law we are still under and
    the Law we are judged by when out of grace.

    The law of Moses consisted of: (1) the civil laws—the statutes and judgments that Moses relayed to the people from God, recorded in Exodus 21-23 and the remaining books of the Law—and (2) the ritualistic laws added later, summarized in Hebrews 9:10. These ordinances regulated the Levitical sacrifices (Lev. 1-7) and related duties, “works,” as in the “works of the law” (Gal. 2:16). This referred to the labour involving Levitical rituals abolished by Christ’s sacrifice.

    The Ten Commandments were never part of the law of Moses or the Levitical sacrificial system. The civil laws and sacrifices were based on God’s Commandments, which make up the core of God’s laws. Thus, the Ten Commandments precede and transcend every lesser law based upon them—statutes, judgments, precepts and ordinances.
    Christians tend to falsely equate the Ten Commandments exclusively with the Old Covenant. However, the Old Covenant was based on the Ten Commandments, which preceded and transcended it.

    Blessings.

    • Apologies, Marianne. You posted your comment while I was writing mine.

      Blessings.

      • Hi ya Don, Richard, and Marianne,

        You know, in reading the three of yours discussion regarding this, I think that you are more in agreement than it may appear at first glance.
        Because in my opinion, I think that you are all right with what you say.

        And if it was all then somehow complied correctly, we all would also have the answer to this dilemma?

        Be Blessed

    • Guday Richard and all,

      Um…. first of all I want to clarify the issue that you have raised regarding the common or moral law. When I say that we are not under the law of Moses, I am not nor have I ever inferred that we have free rign to sin. The law of Moses is the keeping of circumcision, the feasts, holy days, food laws, that is, all of the regulaions and rituals, etc, etc. As for those other moral laws, in 1 John 2:5 says, “This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.” As I quoted before regrarding the law vs grace:

      “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

      Following the old way of the written code was a menu of “do this and don’t do that.” The law was an exteral means of worship, where following Christ and being lead by the Spirit is internal worship, that is, we are worshiping in spirit and in truth.

      If we are following Christ, being lead by the Spirit and having the word of God written on our hearts, then we will not be looking to sin those sins that you mentioned. In fact, because we follow Christ, we should be looking to sin as least as humanly possible; that should be the state of our spirit anyway.

      If anyone thinks that by not being under the law of Moses that this gives them cartblance to sin, then this is not the Spirit of Christ and in that case I would have to repeat what Paul said: “Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase? God forbid!” Christ fulfilled the law perfectly and we follow Christ and when we sin, we confess our sins and he is faithful and just to forgive us.

      Allow me a little silliness, I don’t get up every morning and read the ten commandments in order to make sure that I don’t break them. By belonging to Christ, I already have the will to do what is right because it is always on my heart and I don’t need a list to remind me. Neither do I need to place a phalactery on my arm or forhead.

      Jesus freed us from the observance of the written code that stood
      opposed to us, so now we follow Christ’s example.

      I hope that what I have written here clears up this issue.

      Yours in Christ

      • It seems like there is an issue of what the “law” of Moses is.

        So which law of Moses.

        Does this mean ALL laws, every law that was given?

        NO.

        There was a moral law, and a civil law, and then the decisions of Moses as to interpretations of how to carry out the civil law.

        The feast days are celebrations, and feasts of the Lord, and they were ot be carried out throughout all generations. that would include before, during and after messiah.

        The civil law was to maintain civil order, and fairness. So why would that be done away with?

        I feel the “law” that was done away with was the “law”, not LAWS, that dealt with how to achieve forgiveness of sins, salvation, and restore righteousness.

        It was no longer through animal sacrifices, but through the blood of Jesus.

        You have grouped every law- all the LAWS (pl)- under the singular word “law.”

        There was only one law done away with. All the other laws remained in effect to obey.

        None of them, of course, make a person righteous, because only through Jesus’ blood could this happen, and all the laws that maintained morality and civil order continued to remain in effect.

        So, all the laws (pl) were not cancelled. Just one law (singular).

        • There are 613 laws.

          plural

          Which “law” (singular) was being referred to.?????

          I do not think the entire law was cancelled.

        • I don’t believe that you read my post, as I answered those questions. We keep the moral/civil law by followng Chrst. As for what parts of the law of Moses have been made obsolete, that would be all of it. Remember the Scripture that I quoted regarding the question raised by the Pharisees who stood up in the counsel and said that the Gentile Christians must be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses? And it was decided by the apostles in Jerusalem and confirmed by the Holy Spirit that the burden of the law of Moses was not to be placed on the necks of the Gentile believers, as Peter put it, “That neither we nor our fathers could bear.” In short, the answer was NO! All they said was to abstain from sexual immorality and from blood and eating the meat of strangled animals and that was the extent of it. And if the answer then to whether or not the law of Moses should be obeyed was no at that tie, then the answer is the same today, no! I fear that many people are going to miss out on eternal life because
          of this. Those who are trying to by justified by observing the law have been alienated from Christ. They have fallen from grace.

          • Actually dmcal we must not forget that in Rev 15:12 & 15:3 God clearly makes a point of speaking to Jews and Christians because He encourages the saints and tells us who they are by saying ‘Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God (the Jews) and the faith of Jesus (Christians) and in ch15: 3 those that have gotten victory over the Beast (Islam and its whore that rides it), ‘they sing the song of Moses’ (Jews) and the Song of the Lamb, (Christians) Meaning I am sure that the laws of the tables that Moses took down from Sinai are still followed by the Jews and that the song of the Lamb is still sung by us. Why Christians discard these terms and facts and claim what is good for them as theirs is a curious sickness normally called by many of us as Replacement Theology.

            We cannot turn the grafted branches of the gentile saved into the root and tree Israel. It is against Gods Creation and His gardening laws whether of earth or heavan. A grafted branch will only produce its own fruit type and the root will produce its own as Paul said in Romans 11. The Laws and the Commandments remain and I keep them without shame.

          • dmcal That was a perfect description about replacement theology without a thought given to what had actually occurred. The blood sacrifices were done away with because the Temple was destroyed and Israel scattered to the four corners of the earth. Let us be clear that the sacrifices were obviously stopped but the laws of Israel we keep today whether you wish to acknowledge them or not. The sacrifices gentiles do not, it was not designated for them to do and the Jews do not since the destruction of their Temple and stealing of their land which was evilly done, occurrede. Gods restoration of His People and His Holy Land shall still see the Temple of Ezekiel restored in the place where the abomination of Desolation sits today. You may discard it all, of your choosing, but no one has a right to eliminate any of the scriptures which are relevant unto Gods’ fulfilling them to this day, it is blasphemy to suggest that all of the prophecies were eliminated because he offered salvation to the gentiles and a way back to Him by faith as Abraham believed. Scripture and the old Testament was not eliminated because by faith Abraham beliedved God and was saved. The two do not connect and it is an absurd lie of replacement theology that leads many astray.

          • I always thought that decision of Paul was a bit odd.

            there is more to holiness than just abstaining from immorality, and idolatry.

        • Marianne I think I like your way of putting it best of all. I have read so much here and I agree with Jes in the heart of it because the Lords’ ways always have a good reason behind them. Of course I do not believe the law was done away with or the incredible and wonderful Old Testament or Torah. I do not care what it is called. They are my life and hope and learning and I can’t imagine the earth without his instructions or his laws. Of one thing I am sure I would not hear the same arguments from so many who discard the laws of the Lord being spoken so vehemently about the laws of the Lands we all live in and often it is ludicrous how the injustices of our courts were not created for righteousness sake but to fill the pockets of lawyers and governments and to fill the prisons with so many innocent as guilty. No I will take the the Laws of the Lord and the Lord as judge and guide any day to the laws of the lands though I do obey them as He said we must where it is right.

  29. Hi DJ,

    I am glad that you found the above informative, and if I may, I will provide some more material here for your consideration.
    I will also take this opportunity to address a comment/question, that Dru had made earlier as well since it is relevant to the topic of discussion, which will in essence, hopefully kill two birds with one stone.

    Dru, (Hi Dru), is having difficulty with the possibility that not all of those that “believe” in Yeshua will end up as being His bride. Quote from his post, “I am sick and tired of the notion that those people who are “Left behind” supposedly, and forced to choose the mark of the beast or death, are somehow not of the bride of Christ. This is unbiblical.”

    However, though I am not necessarily in disagreement with that statement, I don’t think that it is simply that black or white in nature. It is my premise, that those that are supposedly left behind, (perhaps as the above parable would suggest, the foolish virgins), may very well in being foolish, choose to accept the mark of the beast rather than dying for Yeshua? And that those that happen to accept Yeshua and convert to the faith during the tribulation, along with those who have been left behind (where it is written that some, perhaps consisting of both groups, will unfortunately be martyred), will most definitely have the opportunity to be included as being the bride of Yeshua.

    I will attempt to address this, as well as provide additional material relative to the topic of this post, within the following commentary.

    However first, you may have noticed within the study that I posted above, that an oversight had been made? That being the omission regarding the most obvious words that should have been studied and included within said study of the parable. Those being translated into English as “wise” and “foolish”.
    I had intentionally left these out to utilize at a later opportunity within our ongoing discussion, with the hopes that they could perhaps add additional evidentiary support to my premise. I present them now below.

    The Greek word “φρόνιμος”, transliterated as “phronimos”, (Strong’s 5429) was translated into English as the word “wise”. The definition of phronimos is as follows, “intelligent, wise, prudent. ie; mindful of ones interests.”
    Its word origin is derived form the Greek “φρήν”, transliterated as “phrēn”, (Strong’s 5424), and its definition is, “1) the midriff or diaphragm, “the parts of the heart”. 2) the mind. a) the faculty of perceiving and judging.”

    Or in other words the word wise itself, could be explained in this way by utilizing the provided definitions, and in maintaining the context in which it is being used, “Wise = For one to make a conscious choice to create and maintain, an intimate relationship based upon the true desire of their heart, and through their knowledge regarding the truth of Yeshua as their Savior.”

    The English word “foolish” was derived from the Greek “μωρός”, transliterated as “mōros”, (Strong’s 3474) and its definitions are as follows, “1) foolish, 2) impious, godless.” It is suspected that “mōros” is derived from the Greek “μυστήριον”, transliterated as “mystērion”, (Strong’s 3466) where the definitions are quite in depth, and consist of the following, “1) a hidden thing, secret, mystery. a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals. b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding. a hidden purpose or counsel. 2) secret will, a) of men, b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly.”

    The first time that this particular word, “mystērion” is used within the New Testament, is when Yeshua answered His disciples question by saying in Matthew 13:11., “Because it is given unto you to “know” the “mysteries” of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.”

    Above I have also placed the word “know” within quotations, (for as students of the Word, we understand that everything that is contained within scripture, is intimately interconnected). The English word “know” in this instance, must be understood, for it is relevant within the context of the narrative to the process of understanding “the mysteries”. The word “know” was translated from the Greek “γινώσκω”, transliterated as “ginōskō”, (Strong’s 1097 ) and it definitions are, “1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. a) to become known. 2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. a) to understand. b) to know.” This “ginōskō” is the same “know” that Yeshua utilizes within Matthew 7:23, were He admonished others that also believe, to depart from Him. Therefore, the surrounding text around any specific verse must be taken into consideration for one to correctly understand the context, and whether or not the word can be understood to have either positive or negative connotations.

    Therefore in utilizing this information, “foolish” itself could perhaps be defined as being in the state of indifference. Since knowledge is only provided by the Spirit of truth, they unfortunately lack a sincere desire to participate within that relationship, and are therefore, ignorant and not fully aware of the significance of the gift that they have been blessed with. Consequently then, neither do they possess the knowledge of the mysteries, or the possible consequences of their choice.

    Why else would Yeshua have a reason to say to any believer, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not.” if it wasn’t somehow connected to the individuals choice to sincerely participate in relationship with Him?
    Yeshua our Lord is perfect, and is incapable of doing anything wrong, therefore the onus of responsibility must fall upon that of the individual themselves.
    From the very moment that the Father drew our hearts to the truth of His Son, (John 6:44., John 6:65.) and the Son then revealed the Father to us, (Matthew 11:27., Luke 10:22.), we have as individuals, had the opportunity of choice. Some pursue that opportunity and strive to seek the Lord our God, whereas there are others who simply don’t.

    Quite frankly, I submit that this desire to seek out and establish relationship, is the ONLY thing of any value whatsoever that we as man can offer to God.
    To recognize the value of the undeserved gift that we have been blessed with, (in this current age of Grace), and to pursue that relationship with all of our hearts. Our Faith has nothing to do with attending a specific church, or participating within various traditions or rituals, neither is it of our own works. Our Faith consists solely upon our desire to participate within relationship.

    Yeshua having been given the authority of being judge, (John 5:22), would also most certainly have the right to choose, (as this parable suggests), who He considers worthy to participate within this marriage event. Will He choose to marry a “wise and chaste bride” that expresses their devotion and love towards Him, as scripture makes reference too, or one of indifference, (the foolish) where no relationship or intimacy exists?

    Therefore, it is my belief that since the context of this whole parable, (from verse 1 through 13) is referring to those that will be chosen to be the bride, and those that won’t be chosen, (by the Lord Yeshua Himself), I have difficulty in understanding why some believe the concept to somehow be unbiblical? Yeshua clearly explains the process of selection here within this particular parable.
    Continuing on with my ideology regarding eschatology, in that it is my opinion that this parable is not only the selection process for that of the bride, but also that of the rapture, (one of many in a sequence of resurrections which all fall under the banner of “first resurrection” (Revelation 20:5.)).

    Yeshua being the “firstfruits”, (where this particular phrase that has been utilized within, (1 Corinthians 15:20. and 23.), may be associated with scripture from the Torah, (Shemoth, or Exodus). Originally within the Hebrew calendar the 1st. of Tishri was associated to the “Feast of Ingathering”. In respects to that, Exodus 34:22 refers to the “firstfruits” in harvesting that of the “wheat”.), then there was the resurrection of those saints that are spoken about within Matthew 27:52,53, from there I believe that there will be additional resurrections consisting of the following groups, and somewhat in this same order; Yeshua’s bride, the Two Witnesses, the 144,000, and then this “first resurrection” will be completed with the tribulation saints.

    Though there are many scriptural passages that refer to “this” particular resurrection, the following scripture would be considered to be the most noteworthy, “1 Thessalonians 4:13-18., 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17., 1 Corinthians 15:12-58., and what Yeshua makes reference to within Matthew 22:29-32., Mark 12:24-27., Luke 20:34-38., and referenced again by Yeshua within Luke 21:36.”

    These passages above are, in my opinion, referring to one specific and purposeful resurrection. (See Titus 2:13,14.) Those that have been judged worthy to become Yeshua’s actual bride. To become like the angels in heaven. This resurrection has nothing to do with “Salvation” itself, it is instead the “prize resurrection” that is expressed within Philippians 3 that Paul speaks about. (The sealing promise of the Spirit is associated with eternal life, (salvation) and not that of an assurance in becoming that of the bride of Yeshua itself. See Ephesians 1:13.)

    In my opinion, what causes the current confusion regarding this topic, is that people will only associate, and correlate the word “resurrection” as being one specific single, solitary event. Passages such as, John 5:29., Acts 17:31,32., for example, are referring to a completely different resurrection event.

    Furthermore, the word that has been translated into the English “resurrection” is also described as pertaining to “eternal life” as well, rather than being an actual transformational experience in “becoming like angels”, or being glorified as such. Acts 4:2., Acts 17:18. for example, would refer to the duality of Yeshua’s own resurrection, as well as the Gospel of resurrection regarding eternal life. See also Acts 2:21-36. Within this preceding passage, we see that King David is not in heaven, not having had the opportunity to be cleansed by the blood of Yeshua’s New Covenant. (Though I suspect that he is well taken care of, and being held within the righteous chamber that is described within Enoch, chapter 2, 22:1 through verse 15. Though it is interesting to note that Michael did contend for the soul/spirit of Moses? Jude 1:9.) Nonetheless, I would think that David will at some time be resurrected. The question would be, since David wasn’t born within the period of the New Covenant, would that resurrection be to become a participant within the marriage as either a member of the body or bride? (That question could be a post topic all on its own, so I would bother to broach it now. lol. )

    However, here are some things to ponder over, regarding a possible Pre-Tribulation resurrection of the bride.
    You are all familiar with the fact that the word “church”, derived from the Greek “ἐκκλησία”, transliterated as “ekklēsia”, (Strong’s 1577), and which should have been possibly rendered into English as merely “an assembly of people of one accord” rather than that of “church”, simply disappears after Revelation 3:14. and that from that point forward, the righteous are referred to as “saints”, (or transliterated, as “hagios”)

    What many fail to fully recognize here, is the significance that is relevant to this. “Ekklēsia” would be specifically representative to that of a group, an assembly of one accord, whereas “hagios” is more specifically representative to that of individuals themselves.
    So lets compile this as being (1) supportive evidence to the premise of a Pre-tribulation rapture, and the information regarding the “door” (thyra) that I provided within my study of the “Ten Virgin”parable above, as being the (2nd.) supportive evidence. So now we have (2).

    I submit that the following would be (3).
    What is also very intriguing is that the term “Holy Spirit” is not utilized once within the entire book of Revelation.

    The Greek “πνεῦμα” transliterated as “pneuma” and translated into English as “Spirit”, (Strong’s 4151) is utilized a total of sixteen (16) times in it’s singular form, and six (6) times as a plural.

    SINGULAR

    Out of the sixteen, singular times, it is used a total of four (4) times in referring to John being “in or caught up” in the Spirit.
    These verses would be Revelation 1:10., 4:2., 17:3., and 21:10.

    Out of the remaining twelve, pneuma is used a total of seven (7) times as in reference as to “Who” it is that is speaking to John, and to the churches. These verses would include Revelation 2:7., 2:11., 2:17., 2:29., 3:6., 3:13., and 3:22.

    The remaining five (5) consist of;

    Revelation 11:11., where the “Spirit of life” entered into the Two dead Witnesses.

    Revelation 14:13., where John heard a voice from heaven say, “Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the “Spirit”, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

    Revelation 18:12., where the angel cried mightily with a strong voice, saying , “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul “spirit”, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

    Revelation 19:10., where the angel had expressed to John to not worship him after John had fallen to his feet by saying, “See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the “spirit” of prophecy.”

    Revelation 22:17., where Yeshua is explaining to John that He has sent His angel to testify regarding all of these things. That He is the root of David and the bright and morning star, and says, “And the “Spirit” and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

    PLURAL

    Out of the six (6) times that “pneuma” is translated in a plural form, four (4) are in reference to the “Seven Spirits of God” which are before His throne. These would be Revelation 1:4., 3:1., 4:5., and 5:6., (this last verse refers to the Seven Spirits that were sent forth into all the Earth.)

    The remaining two (2) are Revelation 16:13., which refers to the “three unclean “spirits” like frogs that come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.” And, Revelation 16:14., which clarifies that these are the “spirits” of devils.

    I submit the following as my supportive evidence (4).

    Out of all of the twenty two (22) times “pneuma” is utilized in the above verses, the context for understanding is more or less self explanatory, except for perhaps one, which I would like to take a moment to reflect upon. Lets look at verse 14:13.

    “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the “Spirit”, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

    Does not the above verse, (in maintaining the context of the narrative) suggest, or even emphasize, that the patience of the saints, and their opportunity to be “blessed”, (from this point on, (henceforth)), is solely dependant upon their “labours”, and that these “works” will follow them?

    What I am proposing here, is that it appears that “the age of Grace” that we are currently under now, has ended. And that the tribulation saints must now prove their worthiness by performing and demonstrating their faith by works, and by possibly being put to death because of them. Ergo, their own blood and sacrifice for their faith in Yeshua, is now required for their salvation, rather than just their belief.
    If we break down the verse within its original Greek text, we can see that this ideology is implied and not without merit.

    The English “Blessed” above is translated from the Greek “μακάριος” transliterated as “makarios”, (Strong’s 3107) and it is defined as; “blessed, happy”.

    “Henceforth”, or, (from henceforth) is derived from the Greek “ἀπάρτι” transliterated as “aparti” (Strong’s 534) and it is defined as; “from now on. henceforth.”

    The Greek word that has been translated into “labours” here is “κόπος” transliterated as “kopos”, (Strong’s 2873), and its definition is as follows; “(1) a beating. (2) a beating of the breast with grief and sorrow. (3) labour (a) trouble (1) to cause one trouble and make work for him. (b) intense labour united with trouble and toil.”

    The English “works” has been translated from the Greek “ἔργον” transliterated as “ergon” (Strong’s 2041). It is defined as; “(1) business, employment, that which one is occupied. (a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, or undertaking. (2) any product whatsoever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind. (3) an act, or deed, a thing done. the idea of working is emphasised in opposition to that which is less than work.”
    (Ergon has also been translated into English as “work” 152 times, “deed” 22 times, “doing” once (1) and “labour” once (1) within the King James.)

    And the English “do follow them” has been translated from the Greek “ἀκολουθέω μετά αὐτός” transliterated as “akoloutheō meta autos”, (Strong’s 190, 3326, and 846 respectively). The definitions of these words in order are;

    “akoloutheō – (1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him. (2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple. (a) side with his party.”
    “meta – (1) with, after, behind.”
    “autos – (1) himself, herself, themselves, itself. (2) he, she, it. (3) the same.”

    I believe that this proposal may possibly be substantiated by Daniel in his prophecy of 11:31-35 as well. Specifically in starting at the end of verse 32 where I have placed the …… designation and within quotations.
    31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate .
    32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: …… “but the people that do know their God shall be strong , and do exploits.
    33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
    34 Now when they shall fall , they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
    35 And some of them of understanding shall fall , to try them, and to purge , and to make them white , even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

    The above “to try them, to purge them, and to make them white” in verse 35, appears to support that this demonstrative act will be required of the tribulation saints, to therefore make them white. The English word “try” being translated from the Hebrew, “צרף” transliterated as “tsaraph”, (Strong’s 6884) is defined primarily as to, “smelt, refine and test to prove true.” And the English “purge” from the Hebrew “ברר” transliterated as, “barar”, (Strong’s 1305) is defined primarily as to, “to purify, select, polish, choose, purge, cleanse or make bright, test or prove.”

    Or as it is written in Revelation 6:9-11, (which I believe expresses and correlates directly with the above prophecy of Daniel)….
    ”9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

    It is my opinion that the end of “the age of Grace” or when believers are actually indwelt with the Holy Spirit by believing and trusting in Yeshua as their Savior, will end at the time of the Rapture or gathering together of Yeshua’s bride. To me this is what Paul was expressing when he was speaking of what “withholdeth” or is “restraining”, (the Greek “κατέχω” transliterated as “katechō”, Strong’s 2277) in 2 Thessalonians 2:6.
    The definition of “katechō” is; “(1) to hold back, detain, retain. (a) from going away. (b) to restrain, hinder (the course or progress of) (1) that which hinders Antichrist from making his appearance. (2) to check a ship’s headway, i.e. to hold or head the ship. (c) to hold fast, keep secure, keep firm possession of. (2) to get possession of, take. (b) to possess.”

    Therefore when Yeshua states in John 6:39. (and in verses 6:40., 6:44., and 6:54. As well as when Martha refers to the same in 11:24) “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.” that He was referring to the “last day” as being the last day of the current “age of Grace”, and not of that of His Second coming.

    I believe that as the parable of the Ten Virgins, (Matthew 25:1-13.) implies that there will unfortunately be some that will be left behind.
    “Watch ye therefore, and pray always , that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass , and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36. KJV.

    I don’t in any way mean for this to be understood and to be taken in a judgmental way whatsoever, however we all unfortunately know some that profess to be Christians, yet don’t appear to “walk the walk” so to speak, but rather are indifferent.

    Yeshua appears to address those specifically throughout this parable, and specifically within verse 5, “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.” Though this might not appear initially as being a significant verse, as revealed within my study, the original Greek would add some insight. All had slumbered and slept, “nystazō”, (Strong’s 3573) and “katheudō”, (Strong’s 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, “katheudō” is also noted within its definition to refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation.”

    Paul exhorts us in 1 Thessalonians 5:19., “Quench not the Spirit.”
    The parable does more than suggest to me, that whether we submit ourselves or not to pursuing a relationship with the Holy Spirit, as having significant impact and is a determining factor to whether or not we will be able to partake within this resurrection?

    Perhaps it also has relevance to the verse of Matthew 13:12 and to that of my proposal?
    ”For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.”

    Perhaps that is why the phrase Holy Spirit is not utilized within the book of Revelation whatsoever?

    To be continued at a later date with supportive evidence (5) and beyond. (Again my apologies for its length.)

    Shalom, & Be Blessed.

    • Brevity is a virtue…. 🙂

      • What can I say?

        I have no defence whatsoever.

        I am without virtue.

        Woe is me.😦

        Sorry, LOL.

    • Alienated,
      Your study is getting better. I agree with 90%, The 10% I disagree, you probably know.

      Question for you: If the Spirit, and grace have “left the building”, Are those people left not under the Law again?? Should they not be the ones who are sanctified by the Spirit, to overflowing, and have the Law written on their hearts?? These questions assume a pre-trib rapture.

      You know that is where our disagreement comes from, so you need not answer. Only Ponder.

      I also believe that righteous, sanctified, Spirit filled saints, are what restrains, so in a sense I agree with that. And in particular, a certain “number” of them.? But it is only after they are gone that the Man of lawlessness is revealed. Again something to ponder. This does not assume, nor negate a pre-trib rapture.

      Believe me, I really want to believe in a pre-trib rapture, but I am leaning towards a pre wrath rapture. Or multiple resurrections, as you state.

      Hebrews 11:6-7

      • Thanks Dru, (and thanks for probably being the only one to read the whole thing. You win the cookie.🙂 ).

        You know your first question there brings up an interesting point?
        I do believe that the resurrection withholder…. restrainer, is the Holy Spirit and that it is also representative of that of the true assembly, and if that is correct, then the Holy Spirit would indeed have as you put it, “Left the Building”.

        Which may then also possibly explain a few verses and your question.

        And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17. KJV.

        Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Revelation 14:12. KJV.

        Blessed are they that do his commandment, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14.

        Something that I will have to ponder over.

        Be Blessed

        • Alienated’
          I like the white chocolate chip kind, but not with the macadamia nuts.

          There is a little “chip” of a verse in Micah 5:5, that talks of seven shepherds and Eight princes of Men. These numbers, typically expressed together in hebrew, refer to Completeness, or more than enough, not nescessarily seven and eight. Would you say, from the context, that this is a reference to the millenial reign, or an earlier time during the tribulation, as it is a reference to Assyria, and Nimrod? Obviously if read like a story, verse five points to the Millenium, but the fact that Nimrod/Assyria are mentioned, makes me wonder. I am Just trying to figure out if this “Number” ties into the fifth seal “Number” in any way, and would appreciate your thoughts.

          • I like all kinds of nuts.

            that’s why I am here!

            Ha !!

            • A sarcastic HA! HA!
              Pistachios, Now they are Manna from heaven! Call me a pistachio all you want.

              • Dru,

                Hey the prize is the prize, and you eat what you get.
                By the way, it’s in the mail and should arrive in a couple of weeks.
                Yum-yum.

                I will try to remember and get back to your question later dru.
                I am currently working on something else at the moment. okay?

                You enjoy that cookie there….Pistachio.

                Be Blessed

                • Alienated
                  I have another question for you, this one I think you need to answer. I will post it at the bottom.

      • I am pre-wrath also.

  30. Does no one here realize that if we in our universe live in a trapped time capsule as it were which means we experience 24 hour days and death and that when the Lord returns and restores all things as the sixth verse of Ch 10 Rev. says when the seventh angel begins to sound there will be ‘time’ no longer and that change from ours to the Lords’ timelessness that is restored is the change in a twinkling which I have a difficult time using the term ‘rapture’ for. Of course such an alteration will change us all to the eternal living and I suspect it is far greater than the silly term rapture. This is all that it is a change in time as the seventh angel blows his trumpet rings out the old and restores what was given from the beginning of Creation. Time is no longer.

    • Hello Mary Jean,

      Nice to meet you. If I may, your inference that this verse is speaking about “time” ending is incorrect for too many reasons to count, one being that we would be changing from being in “Time” to being in “Eternity” before the seventh trumpet sounds. Here is the verse in the NIV:

      “And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!”

      If you will notice, right after the angels proclamation he says, “But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound” That being said, the meaning is that there will be no more delay of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which is what the angel is referring to. Neither does it mean that everything is going to miraculously terminate after the angel makes his proclamation, for as I mentioned we still have the 7th trumpet as well as the seven bowl judgment yet to be completed. And the world will still be operating out of time during the thousand year reign of Christ and that because of he very fact that the time period is referred to as a “Thousand years.” My point is that “Years” are governed by “Time” and therefore, time will still exist during the millennium. I suspect that we could possibly exit time and enter eternity at the creation of the new heaven and new earth, but I doubt very much that we will make the jump right before the seveth trumpet.

      Yours in Christ

      • dmcal hello, Actually you quoted the verse incorrectly because the original Greek text is chronos – ‘Time’ and not ‘ delay’. The text actually reads ‘there shall be a space of time no longer’ or there shall be ‘time’ no longer. Unfortunately english translators take a lot of liberty when they do not understand verses or words and add english words that in fact are not truly relevant or true to the texts. A proper Strongs Exhaustive Greek Concordance would show you this is true and it also reads when the Angel ‘begins’ to sound inferring a long sound of the trumpet where it would seem many things occur. The days, weeks and seasons will not change in the millenium I am sure because the scripture says they would be as long as the present earth exists but the idea that things are locked in this present space of time is obviouslly no longer present because the old people seen in scripture say there will be old men of many days in Jerusalem.

        The scripture also should read ‘ when the angel ‘begins’ to sound’ and it does not matter whether you read NIV or KJ or NKJ or AS, you would be better to read the original texts from the original Greek Hebrew or Aramaiic since those are the actual texts and cannot be distorted or argued with.

        Long ago when I learned the word delay was really time in the Greek text I was surprized but then the monk who translated the word in Isaiah 14: 12 Heylal – Son of the Morning or shine in the original aramaiic or Hebrew and changed it to an old known deity – Lucifer. To this day I cannot use the term Lucifer when it in fact is not. Nor can I use the term delay when in fact it is time.

        I know there are so many terms that english speaking people have translated wrongly in order to make sense of scriptures that they were uncomfortable with in their day but it is absolutely wrong to do so. Just as the term 666 was only a translation from the original unusual text they used Gamatria which would be like using astrology instead of astronomy to explain the stars, or any other cult to explain for God what He really meant by mans terms when He never uses mens cult practices of any kind that He forbids in scriptures.

        • You are correct in that the word is Cronos, but it is meant in regards to there shall be no more delay of time. Out of 18 of the translations 9 of them are translated “Delay.” I also read everyday and have access to the the interliner, Greek, Hebrew and the major parallel verses and study them daily. Whatever you want to call “666”, it will have to do with a literal mark on the literal right hand or forhead and it will eventually replace the debit card, for it will be used in the same manner via computer transaction in order to credit and debit ones bank account (Unless the had the mark they would not be able buy or sell). At some time during the middle of that last seven years, he will make cash, checks, credit and debit absolete “Forcing” the inhabitants of the earth to receive the mark in order to be able to perform financial transactions to their bank accounts. This is exactly why the world is pushing towards a cashless society and why debt payments are being done more and more via computer transaction. The key right now to debit ones account is the debit card, but that mark will replace it and will allow credit and debit. Those whose names have not been written in the book of life will receive it to save their lives and those who know what that mark represents will reject it and take their stand for christ and the word of God.

          I don’t agree with you interpretation of Revelation, as I don’t beleive that anything from chapter 4 on has taken place yet. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God and those are yet to be literally fulfilled. The letters to the churches represent those seven literal churches of Asia minor, as well types of churches throughout the entire church period which we are still in. In 1 Thes.5:1-2 the resurrection and catching away is also referred to as the “Day of the Lord” and infact initates it, which is then followed by the wrath portion, which is carried out in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls. The culmination of that last 3 1/2 years will be the return of the Lord to usher in the end of the age, to cast the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire, lock Satan up in the Abyss and to slay all those with the double-edged sword (word of God) who will have been gathered there and to set up his millennial kingdom.

          Also a quick note: The reason for the mentioning that “If a man dies at 100 years old he will be considered a mere child” is because the longevity of years will be restored just as it was prior to the days before the flood.

          In regards to the translation of the word “Delay” it coveys the idea of “No more delay of time” before the seventh angel blows his trumpet.

          Also, in regards to the law that you mentioned, whether Jew or Gentile, none will be justified by observing the law of Moses. The law is obsolete and was nailed to the cross and we are now saved by grace through faith apart from observing the law. It is by the shed blood of Christ alone that we are justified freely. As I said earlier, during the time of the law, Israel was required to keep the law as well has live by faith, but they pursued salvation as if it were by works. God will judge those prior to Christ according to the law and faith and everyone after the Lord’s sacrifice will be judged by faith apart from the law. For anyone who observes the law now as a requirment for salavtion are alienated from Christ.

          New International Version (©1984)
          And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay!

          New Living Translation (©2007)
          He swore an oath in the name of the one who lives forever and ever, who created the heavens and everything in them, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, “There will be no more delay.

          English Standard Version (©2001)
          and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

          New American Standard Bible (©1995)
          and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer,

          King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
          And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

          International Standard Version (©2008)
          He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: “There will be no more delay.

          Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
          And he swore by him who lives to the eternity of eternities, him who created Heaven and that which is in it, and The Earth, and that which is in it: “Time shall be no more.”

          GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
          He swore an oath by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it. He said, “There will be no more delay.

          King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
          And swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are therein, and the earth, and the things that are therein, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

          American King James Version
          And swore by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

          American Standard Version
          and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be delay no longer:

          Douay-Rheims Bible
          And he swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things which are therein; and the earth, and the things which are in it; and the sea, and the things which are therein: That time shall be no longer.

          Darby Bible Translation
          and swore by him that lives to the ages of ages, who created the heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be no longer delay;

          English Revised Version
          and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created the heaven and the things that are therein, and the earth and the things that are therein, and the sea and the things that are therein, that there shall be time no longer:

          Webster’s Bible Translation
          And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer:

          Weymouth New Testament
          And in the name of Him who lives until the Ages of the Ages, the Creator of Heaven and all that is in it, of the earth and all that is in it, and of the sea and all that is in it, he solemnly declared,

          World English Bible
          and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,

          Young’s Literal Translation
          and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it — that time shall not be yet,

          • You are obviously indoctrinated into all the doctrines of men created and explained by their words and not the original words of the texts that God gave the writers. It is not necessary to write reams of this nonsense or repeat the translations when so many of us are acquainted with them. You have still ignored the word ‘ time or kronos or space of time’ which IS NOT ‘delay’ and your indoctrinations of the propaganda that comes from mens alterations and that always ignore the original texts as well as the contexts they are written in need not be explained again by your taking up space telling us. Many of us were raised in this nonsense and prefer to read the simple original texts and discussing these doctrines is not necessary. I reject most of them but accept wholly the original texts of the Bible and their original meanings, thank you. You have explained nothing in the above rant. Just that you know the term time is original and you wish to ignore it in its’ context and this willful blindness is not new. I have seen and heard it all my life. LIke the earth is not round it is flat so you followers of this nonsense always do insist it is flat afterall. The lies still go on and Christianity sadly spews them.

            • you cannot call people’s comments “rants”

              use neutral terms.

              • My apologies Dru for the term rant, but, it is not necessary to give reams of scriptures when we are acquainted with the simple facts. The original term is ‘time’ irregardless of how many versions use the term time or delay. That is what I meant.

  31. As the tribulation advances and the day of wrath approaches, the anti-christ runs a muck and persecution ensues, I hope the internet remains up and running so I can see what all these bloggers have to say then. I wonder if the pre-tribers will become pre-wrathers or just be part of a great falling away brought on by their disillusionment. I will also be curious to see if those waiting for the “evil beast Pope” to heal the European Anti-christ from a gun shot to his head get a clue as Islamic jihad cuts of the heads of their neighbors and dominates the world. We’ll see.

    • hi Edward

      I think the body of christ is in for many surprises, as a whole.

      I personally believe in the pre-wrath view. Christians have been facing persecution and tribulation for 2000 years.

      To me tribulation is the first 6 seals.

      Then at the 7th seal, everything stops for 30 minutes.

      then the wrath begins.

      I think we “leave” at the 6th seal. when the sun turns dark and the moon turns red, which has always been described as BEFORE the great and terrible “day of the Lord.”

      Jesus said to took for that moment.

      Everyone who is an unrepentant sinner is part of the beast, who i agree is Islamic. So there is no use picking out certain people to point at them only, when one is guilty themselves.

      We need to all look deep into ourselves, and make sure there is no “beast” inside of us.

      • Succint and true Marianne though I believe as Christ opened each seal a trumpet is blown because the matching of the seventh seal ‘space’ – kronos- space of time in the original, is pointed out and that ‘space’ (some read incorrectly delay), of the sixth trumpet which contains the last 2000 years history seems to carriy us to the to the same term where it says that (kronos) not delay but ‘space of time’ is no longer or inferring that with the end of the sixth seal and beginning the sixth trumpet, time is brought to the raising up in a cloud the two witnesses, the Jews and Christians,verse12 after the dead bodies are given flesh or raised up as in 1948 and 1967 Ezekiel 37, before the seventh trumpet rev 11: 15 which is definitely in our day. I am one who saw Israel become a nation. What an incredible part we have in this day.

    • Edward
      I do not see the pope as the beast, but I do believe that a “Bad” pope will rise to power, and lead many catholic sheep to slaughter. I see this “Bad” pope as the “false prophet” of revalation. The same will happen with the protestent churches, so I am not “picking on catholics” here. Many protestent churches are falling for all kinds of apostacy and losing sight of the cross. The “Church” is the body of Christ, Not the Body of the Pope or any protestent leader. Those whose eyes are fixed upon Christ, and not the things of this world, will not be swayed.
      God bless,
      from the not too old yet, but not too young!

      • A bad pope dru…I am curious as to what the thousand year rule of the papal whores who had popes so bad that villagers and cities had brothels soley set aside for these popes because they were so bad and vile that they needed to protect their daughters and the only way of doing this was to give them women for their appetites because the popes raped their daughters. I do not think the popes of the church is the beast either but I do think the UN and EU or the Western leg of Daniels statue is the whore that rides the back of Islam (the Beast) for its oil today. And there can be no doubt that Islam has hated and hates all non-muslims and especially the west, even if we feed this beast and they are now dependant on us for money and food while they build up their weapons. The west had as its root the Papacy which spread throughout the unknown world its ideas and doctrines. Even the Protestant churches came out of her. I like to say the unsaved Gentiles are those with the Testimony of Jesus as it says in Revelation 14, and the Jews are the saints who keep the commandments of God and sing the song of Moses while we sing the song of the Lamb. I

        • sorry dru, that should read A bad pope dru…I am curious as to what you would call the thousand year rule…..

        • Marie Jean,
          There are “good” leaders, and “bad” leaders in ALL the churches. Even if one church has more than the others. What matters is the Gospel, and keeping our eyes fixed on Jesus. Though there is much Apostacy in the catholic church, They still hold to the testimony of Jesus. The question is, will they hold to Jesus’ testimony, or the Popes, if they contradict? I would ask the same of any protestent. I am referring here to the essentials of the faith, not the pagan cultures intertwined therein. Remember, salvation, comes from faith, not works.

          The thousand year rule, is a time when Jesus rules on the earth. It is a return to the original created order, with the curse of the fall lifted. It Is partly a vindication of the Lord, and part of the promise to Israel, and Abraham, a fulfillment Of the Messiah as king. Vindication, plays a huge role in the biblical story. Something well worth doing a study on. I do not think we can fully understand God’s plans, And I personally never would claim that. But vindication is in character with how he reveals himself.

          Its easy to criticize others, especially if you yourself have left that particular church, for whatever reason. (Lord knows there are plenty of reasons for leaving a church) But this sort of reactionary faith is not the best for attempting theology, especially end time theology. I cannot tell you how many former catholics that I have run into that say the beast is the Pope, and the false prophet is the Pope. Or the dragon is the Pope. These are three different people, but because of the hurt that they felt from that church, they only see the enemy in that church, and rightfully so. But that does not make their theology correct.

          So I whole heartedly agree with you, that Christians are the ones that hold to the testimony of Jesus, But they are amongst ALL the churches, so that when the time of harvest comes, They may convince those weeker sheep to Join them in God’s kingdom. As are the goats among ALL the churches.

          God bless.

          • Thank you dru for your response. I do not for a moment believe the Catholic church is the Beast, false prophet or the whore that rides the beast though I must say much of the western world has come out of her including the Protestant faiths and I have met many true believers in all of the Christian churches. As for the Apostate Catholic church itself I would never call anyone but Jesus my mediator and it is wrong for the Popes to make themselves mediators on the earth for believers to the Father! That is Christs role for all of us and as for the idolatry it is just another form of apostasy taken up by many churches and people can do it in their hearts as well. But as for criticism, that we may express, and many do today more freely. I am most grateful that we may do so more so today than 39 years ago when first I asked Jesus into my heart and gave my life to Him. I learned in many churches that one must believe and accept their doctrines to their specific beliefs which is fine until one finds their doctrines are not scriptural but based on theories and doctrines of men and of course for criticism most people are ostracized for just questioning so many people leave and look for just a place to be right with the Lord which is acceptable and understandable. Mankind has a history of criticism in their chasing the truth. Abraham is just one of the fathers of our faith who did this very thing and in searching for the truth and the Creator I am most grateful he found Him.

            • Marie Jean,
              I agree. I Just do not like seeing people accused of not being a Christian, because of the church they belong to. It is one thing if that church does not hold to the testimony of Jesus, (Such as Jehovahs witnesses), But another if they do. I agree that the catholic church has a LOT of baggage, and many catholics will agree with that. But that does not mean the members are not Christian. In some parts of the World, that is the ONLY church that is Christian to choose from.

              As with Abraham, we too are sojourners in this world. (Hebrews 11:14-16)

    • Hi Edward,

      Above you make the following comment, “I wonder if the pre-tribers will become pre-wrathers or just be part of a great falling away brought on by their disillusionment.”

      I can only speak for myself here, but if I happen to be wrong somehow with my ideology, then I would simply be wrong. It would have no bearing whatsoever on my faith regarding Yeshua as my Savior.

      No “falling away”. No “disillusionment”.

      God is God and His plan certainly trumps anything that I may believe. I am just attempting to understand it all.

      Be Blessed.

  32. Marie Jean,

    Here is some information regarding the two major text types that are utilized to formulate our English Bible translations from blueletterbible.org.

    Quote;

    Textus Receptus (1550)
    The Authorized Version of 1611 (King James Version) utilizes the Textus Receptus (“Received Text”) as the basis for the Greek New Testament. The Textus Receptus is based upon various Greek texts but also carries some influence from the Latin Vulgate. The earliest work was prepared by Desiderius Erasmus. This work was later revised by Robert Estienne (or, Stephanus) and further revised by Theodore Beza. The text produced by each is substantially the same, aside from some minor variations. The Blue Letter Bible utilizes Stephanus’ edition from 1550.

    Quote

    The vast majority of modern translations are based upon the “Alexandrian” text type. The King James Version (KJV) is not based upon this Greek text. The KJV is based upon the “Textus Receptus”. The Alexandrian-based text combines the Westcott-Hort (1881) edition with the Nestle-Aland 26th edition (and its variants).

    More information regarding Westcott & Hort can be read within the link below.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Testament_in_the_Original_Greek

    So, which text type is the most accurate? That would depend upon who you are and what your particular prejudices may be. In my opinion, the Westcott-Hort/Nestle-Aland is more than likely the most accurate of the two, because it incorporates significantly more manuscript evidence (and older manuscripts) than the Textus Receptus.

    Regarding the subject of discussion, the Greek “χρόνος”, transliterated as “chronos”, (Strong’s 5550), is indeed in itself, defined as “time”, (be it either long or short), however, to take that definition within its literal sense, (within this specific verse), is tantamount to disregarding all of the surrounding text, which clearly suggests that one shouldn’t.

    My 2 cents.

    Be Blessed

    • Thank you alienated I and appreciated your information though I was aware of the history of the translations etc. We have used and studied with many bibles though it does not mean much without knowing all there history in the original tongues or who the translators were and what they were trying to achieve. I do not discount the surrounding text or chapters. It would be absurd to do so though I have seen and heard so many theories and doctrines that do so I have become leary of the blindness it lends. People over the ages were normally forbidden criticism and study except for the elite and priests; arn’t we lucky that we may study all the original texts and studies of doctors of theology without being burned for even speaking of it?

  33. Hi Marianne,
    Here comes the male-bride. Keep the confetti ready🙂

    Check the other posts too on catholicism, this guy Ivar, he really brings out the weirdest from the Vatican closet.

  34. Dru

    I am trying to catch up, I have been very busy. Wow oh wow.

    Can you feel the love. I have a violent headache from reading all of the comments. The spirit and faith beliefs are all over the board, it is a broad range of thoughts.

    The first thing I wanted ask you since I skimmed the blogging above. Was there a discussion on Beauty and Bands in conjunction with all these law conversations? Are you familiar with the passages on Beauty and Bands? It seems to me that all of the required inputs was not completed?

    I looked at the kings line up and it makes more sense to me for the war. We know that it has to be global based on the input about the mark of the beast. If it did not control more areas, how could the mark be global.

    I do think however that there is going to be to be a battle before the war.
    Someone (I think his name is Edward) above mentioned to you about the Pope being wounded in the head. I don’t know that I agree that it is the pope or even an individual. It seem more to me like it is a nation. I felt in looking at it again that it could be a battle that causes a wound to that nation that makes people think that this king is down and out. I suppose with the Catholic Church also being its own country that it could be them. But I felt that it would be a nation involved in resistance instead of joining.

    I feel like it is the indication that there is a battle before the war. Let me know when you finish the work, I am interested in hearing the outcome.
    You work hard to get it right and that is often so time consuming.

    • Pattie
      I am not sure what you mean by “Beauty and the Bands”? Is this in regards to Zechariah 11:1-15, which annulls the covenent??

      The Mortal wound could refer to economic collapse, which is predicted for EU and U.S.? Which would usher in world currency? This is speculation though.

    • Wow
      I never thought of this before, but Zechariah 11:15-17 is in most commentaries a reference to the Antichrist, But I think it may be a reference to the dragon of revalation. If you note that his right arm is withered, and his right eye blind. Arm usually is equated with power, and eye is equated with wisdom.

      Revalation 12, now makes even more sense!! And revalation 13. “One of its heads had a mortal wound” “The dragon gave its authority to the beast”

      I think I just had an epiphany? Proof that the dragon of revalation is the Muslim world, and that Islam is the religion of the dragon. I need to work on this some more. Then the third beast makes everyone worship the first beast…That is if the dragon is the first beast? I need to do some more research.

      A glimpse into the mind of a pistachio Thinking out loud.!!

  35. Marianne

    Not sure what you mean with your comment above on March 3rd-2011. I was commenting to Lisa as a young Mom, as she seemed so fearful that her child was going to hell based on a comment.

    I knew that was not anyone’s intention. I understand you did not endorse the sight, but it was clear from what she wrote that she heard as a young Mom what she as a Mom is trained to hear, My baby potentially has an issue.

    You surely did not expect me not to come to her aid to calm her fears. I have compassion for young Moms’. I have a young daughter who is also a Mom. She would have reacted the same way and by the end of the weekend if she were in this young Mom’s shoes she would have been sick from worry.

    From times we forget what it is like to be a young Mom.

    I know how fearful they get with a little bit fear input about sickness or anything that can impact their baby, as they should. She had normal feelings of concern but no one was responding and it was the weekend and she obviously was without the baby and it was with the grand parents who she spoke of as being less that responsible in her eyes.

    Did I some how offend you with the post?

    So if there was something taken the wrong way forgive me. I would not speak evil or wrongfully against you. I not only have to answer for my thoughts but also my words. But we sometimes are not going to see things eye-to-eye. Are we not the children of truth?

  36. Alienated
    In one of your comments, You said that the rapture, pre trib, are the firstfruits. Revalation 14:4, however uses this term to describe the 144,000, who are also described as virgins. By the time of revalation 14, we are introduced to the beast, and the mark of the beast, and this description comes after these events, but there is also the word “Had”, as in “had been redeemed from the earth” (14:3) Implying past tense. This is my ESV translation. I looked at strong’s, and no tense is given for the word redeemed, Meaning to buy, as in a market. KJV uses “were redeemed”, also Past tense in my understanding of the english language.

    Now we know from revalation 7, That they are sealed sometime after or during the sixth seal. If they, then are firstfruits, would we not be sometime after them? Or are you implying that there is a firstfruits for Christians, and a firstfruits for Jews?

    If yes then…
    Since I see the 144000 as innocent children, would it not also imply that the firstfruits of Christians are also innocents (Children of the faith)?

    This, in a (Pistachio) nutshell is where we disagree with regard to the pre-trib rapture. If you can convince me otherwise, I will concede. This is a multi leveled question so be careful answering!

    • Hi Dru,

      Well, I am not sure if I can answer your question? However, I can certainly reply with my opinion as to how I see all the pieces of the puzzle fitting together. (I will try to keep this as concise as possible, but there are no promises.) I merely ask you and all that would possibly read this, to not simply dismiss what is said, but rather mull it over within their heart for awhile.

      Okay, in respects to your first comment, where you state, “Revelation 14:4., however, uses this term, (firstfruits) to describe the 144,000, who are also described as virgins.” Then you also make a comment regarding the word “had” in your ESV. Bible about the possibility of the word itself implying past tense. (I’ll address this first.)

      The reason “had” and “were”, (within the KJV.) were utilized within that verse is because the verb, “ἀγοράζω” transliterated “agorazō”, or “redeemed” is in fact, a “perfect, passive, participle”. It is past tense!

      (Sidebar; since you have made the choice to broaden your heartfelt studies by now going deeper into the original text, (and kudos to you for doing that by the way) you may now find this link to be helpful with that.) I have copied the verb portion of this site within the link. http://www.preceptaustin.org/new_page_40.htm

      As I have stated before, it is my opinion that the 144,000 are included within what is referred to biblically as the “first resurrection”.

      We, the Assembly, (the Ekklēsia, or Church), are the “firstfruits” of the “Spirit”. (Romans 8:23.) They, (the 144,000) are the “firstfruits” after the Assembly itself has been raptured. And speaking of “past tense” and “rapture”….. We know that scripture states that in between the 6th. and 7th. seal these 144,000 are sealed by the angels, (during the great tribulation), with the seal of the living God in their foreheads.

      If we then look at Revelation 12, and understand that the woman is indeed that of Israel, based upon Genesis 37:9,10. (rather than that of the Assembly or Church, and heaven forbid, that of Mary), we see that “she” Israel, brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was “caught up” unto God, and to his throne., (which would simply include this “male child” as reigning with Yeshua, as does Revelation 2:17., where in the epistle to the Church of Thyatira, those of the Assembly that were overcomers, were chosen in being able to do the same.)

      This “caught up”is the only time that the Greek word “ἁρπάζω” transliterated, “harpazō” is utilized within the book of Revelation.

      (The Greek “ἀναβαίνω” transliterated “anabainō”, (Strong’s 305) was utilized in regards to the “Two Witnesses”in Rev. 11. Which coincidently, is the same word that was translated into the English “ascended and ascend” that Yeshua spoke within John 20:17.)

      So with this understanding, we see that the word “harpazō” doesn’t necessarily need to be used to describe a “heavenly ascension”, and that this ascension could then be simply described within the text itself. So since, (as I eluded to above) we are speaking about “past tense and rapture”, or a group that actually “ascends” up to God, we must now also understand and take into consideration, that this ascension could possibly be simply described within the text themselves. Since we have established that word “redeemed” in Revelation 14:4., is indeed “past tense” then where, or when did this “ascension of the 144,000” take place in scripture?

      Right there!

      Read Revelation 14:1 through 4 again thoughtfully.

      1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
      2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
      3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
      4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

      John looks and see’s Yeshua standing on Mount Zion, (Jerusalem). John see’s Him standing on the Earth with the 144,000. The next verse (2) is a description within text that describes their “ascension”. In verse (3) they are all now in heaven before the throne and singing a new song.
      We, the Assembly, (or Church) are “firstfruits” as well, and we were redeemed from men also. So the wording here should not be understood as that the 144,000 are the first in a manner of speaking, but are rather a portion of what is biblically referred to as the “first resurrection”.

      Lucky for you that I have to go out. lol. As you can see I have hardly broached the full question that you had posed.
      I continue with this later as to give you some time to ponder over this.

      Shalom & Be Blessed.

      P.S. Whether you or anyone else may agree with this so far, is inconsequential personally. There are numerous people on this site that post on a regular basis that I respect and admire for both their knowledge, and their passion. These would include, (but would not be limited to), Yourself, Marianne, Don, 45, DJ, Richard, Al, and Jes. (If I have omitted anyone I apologize and and no harm was intending to anyone, these are just the first that popped into my mind.) However with that said, none of the above including myself, agree completely on anything? lol.
      Therefore, my opinions are just that. I try with study to be as accurate as I can and to be lead by the Spirit in what I write, but they are still only my opinions. Thankfully I don’t define myself by them or that of my ideology. I define myself instead as a seeker, and a grateful follower of Yeshua.
      As I believe that we all are.
      Later.

      • Just wondering here…… Did anyone who may have read the above have some sort of difficulty accommodating in their mind, as to how something that was written within Revelation 7:3 could possibly be the same “man child” that is described within Revelation 12:5?
        (That is assuming that anyone actually reads my posts at all?)

        If so, then that’s pretty funny. Because that is the very same issue that I had to reconcile myself.
        What I realized, was that I was applying my preconceived perspective regarding time frame to each chapter and verse. (Hey, I’m only human.)

        Though the Book of Revelation is written within what appears to be a linear and rather chronological time frame, that doesn’t necessarily mean that when John recorded something specific, that it also came to fruition within that same recording. Most everything that happens during the whole of this 7 year event will take a period of time to play out. (Personally, I think that it would have helped us all out quite a lot if John had also utilized parenthesise.)

        As well, we really haven’t been provided with enough information to be able to establish any specificity regarding time frame at all. All we have in actuality is a seven (7) year time frame, that consists of two (2) relatively equal halves, and that is basically it. For just one example, we have no idea whatsoever really as to how long each and every seal will take to fruition, neither have we been provide with enough information to even begin to decipher whether or not they could possibly overlap in space and time? We just don’t know.

        So just because John records that these 144,000 were sealed in between the 6th. and 7th. seal within Rev. 7. does not mean that this particular event was also completed at that same time, (it could very well happen instantaneously, or within a couple of weeks, or perhaps even years?) We don’t know?
        Therefore, I believe that there is still a distinct possibility for the man child of Rev. 12. and the 144,000 to be one and the same.

        Just thought that I’d throw that out there.
        Shalom.

        • Alienated,
          I have one more point for you to consider. Compare the greek word for seals, as found in revalation, and its root, and then place this in context with the word “hedge” as found in Job 1:10. I think you will see a similarity between the two.?

          You should see why I bring this up and how it is relavent to this discussion.

          I have to run, I will explain where I am heading in more detail later.

          • Holy Cow dru, (my apologies to any Hindu’s that may be passing through), do you realize how much work that undertakes?

            I think I will wait until I see as to where you are going with your thoughts first.

            Later.

            Shalom

            • What I mean is, that I see the similarities regarding the “seals”, (sphragis) and it its root (phrasso) that is say, utilized within Romans 3:19., as being translated into the English there as, “may be stopped”, and how it could possibly be associated to the English words, (Hast not thou made a “hedge”), from Job 1:10., that have been translated from the Hebrew “שוך”, transliterated as, “suwk”, (Strong’s 7753) and is defined as; “to hedge, or fence up, or about.”

              But I would have to do a complete and thorough study of all the words that have been translated from Hebrew into hedge and as well, the context of those verses, then compare them to the Greek regarding the seals, before coming to anything that could possibly be conclusive to any ideology or train of thought.

              It is a lot of work so I’ll wait.

              Shalom

              • alien ate ed
                Sorry, I do not want to make more work for ya. Just thought that would be right up your alley. I just saw the similarity in the definitions, between the root of “Phrasso” and “Suwk”, and thought you may have done a study, seeing as you have done a study on Just about everything else! (Lol)

                Btw: Just having fun with your name, in case your wondering, It just seems so impersonal, when its all one word!

                • Hi Dru,

                  Ha, ya right. I haven’t even scratched the surface in respects to word studies.
                  But you are right, I do find them interesting, and perhaps I’ll look into doing one regarding this too.

                  I’ll continue replying to your questions tomorrow. Hope that you and yours have a good night.

                  By the way, have you noticed how slow the site has been over the last couple of days?
                  Hope that we didn’t miss some sort of “catching away”? LOL.

                  Shalom,

                  P.S. you put an additional “e” in your salutation. You would be crumby at playing scrabble. 🙂

  37. To All,
    I would like to say a few words about the discussion at hand; that being instructions vs no instructions. Israel understood that the instructions (I will use this instead of the dreaded L_ _ word) were a fence to keep Yah’s people inside a perimeter of safety and to keep external and dangerous things from getting in. It defined the whole culture of Israel. They seemed to only have problems when they disobeyed the instructions they were given. Having an orderly life with instructions is not being bound by the Law (sorry, there is that pesky L_ _ word again). No group of people with a common belief; no religion with a common faith; no country, has ever succeeded without a core set of instructions, rule of law, orderliness, acceptable behavior, and so on. You choose whatever term relates best to your thinking.

    Let’s take Islam and the Islamic countries. The Koran is their holy book that defines who they are and what they are to be doing. This is their faith and what they believe in the spiritual realm. But how has that affected their secular society? Is it not a mirror image of their religious (spiritual beliefs)? The Muslim countries became a carbon copy of what their religious beliefs are; hate, murder, torture, barbarism, death, and total dominance and submission to both their religious and civil laws. Their religious instructions-laws or whatever you want to call it determined the society they lived in.

    The Hindu religion in India is the same. Their religion dictated a caste system that everyone fell into which was based on the status of their birth. Needless to say,they had no control over such things. We see how that has affected India to this day where animals are sacred while people starve to death. Their religious beliefs and instructions were the framework for their society.

    Look at Europe, the bastion of Christianity, with their massive cathedrals, religious statues and art work, still the home of the Catholic Church, the legacy of Emperor Constantine. Europe is dead spiritually, with their empty cathedrals and a predominately secular view of life. Constantine and the organization he built was predicated on renouncing the Jews and the Torah, all the while, by force, pursuing the Jewish people to convert them to the pagan ways of manmade Christianity through torture and murder, bordering on genocide. You know, convert or be tortured and killed. Who does that sound like in our day and time???? What writings did they use to accomplish these things or define the direction they were taking? Was it not the Pauline letters that were misinterpreted, thereby creating a new religion which was never the intent of Yah, though He allows it to accomplish His own end? Europe is now a hollow shell with little to show for their former glory. Outside of the Catholic Church, which leaves a lot to be desired, Europe is pretty much secular.

    Let’s look at the “Christian” nation, America (aka USA). The country was founded on Christian principles and theology without the Torah (written instructions from the hand of Yah). America, like every other nation preceding it, has turned into a reprobate nation that has lost every aspect of being considered set-apart (Kadosh-Holy). Without specific instructions to guide our actions, which in turn would at least have pointed us in the right direction, we were doomed from the beginning to go the way of the nations (goyim). Obama was wrong when he said that we are not a Christian nation. We have become the epitome of a “Christian” nation (without instructions). We are the major exporter of pornographic material to the world; our military is now openly homosexual; we have openly aborted tens of millions of babies in the womb, which is leading to after birth infanticide. If the fetus in the womb is a baby and we are able to “kill” it, then why should we not be able to kill a baby after it has been born? This is out there and is seriously being discussed; homosexual marriages are currently legal in 7 states; homosexuals are ordained as ministers. How did the nation that was the light to the world end up in this pitiful state? Was it not because we thought we were so spiritual that we didn’t need any instructions? The truth is we are a people without a fence, without instruction, without moral order and law (sorry, there is that L_ _ word again). We have become a nation that mirrors our religion-no law. Our end has been precipitated by a vagueness of what has been defined as being “righteous” (doing the right thing). Our instructions need to be more than just saying we need to “Love” more. Once saved always saved, without accountability for our actions, has brought about our demise as a nation.

    The best word to describe our condition is iniquity which basically means- lawlessness, being without law ( without Torah). We have Messiah, but in a condition of iniquity. So, what do we really have? I am sure we will find out in the very near future at the Judgment Seat of Messiah!!!!

    Be Blessed

    • Thank you Al, that was just a SUPER EXPLANATION. I’m copy-pasting it to my file.
      Shalom & Yahweh Bless

    • Al
      Please do not take this the wrong way. I am politically more of a libertarian, which stems from my understanding of ethics and virtue. I still believe in the “rule of Law” politically, but I also understand that true virtue does not come from behind the barrel of a gun. Does that mean that I am prochoice, with regard to abortion or legalization of drugs? No
      There is a fine line between a lawless society, and an oppresive society (Las Vegas Vs. Mecca), It is like we are walking on a tite rope, and if we lose our balance either way, we fall in. Obviously, if there was no sin or everyone was a christian, we are less likely to have those dilemmas. In a sense it makes the tite rope more of a balance beam or gang plank. You can still hurt yourself, and fall if you lose balance.
      There will always be that dialectical relationship between law, and virtue, Until the millenial reign. This is what I am implying when I discuss the difference between Good and evil, and righteousness and wickedness. One is Law based, and the other is liberty based. One believes in strict obedience, while the other believes in sanctification, and overcoming our fleshly desires. Is one side wrong, and the other side right? No. Are we forever stuck in this back and forth struggle? Arguably, yes. Unless something dramatic happens to change things. The goal of sanctification is to have the law written on our hearts. The Goal of rigid obedience is the same, Is to have it written in our minds. Liberty changes the heart, while strict obedience changes the mind. I think each of us in our life will go through these phases, where we are more Law oriented, or more liberty oriented. And I believe it is part of God’s plan. Each one alone, does not completely transform. The law alone leads to legalism, liberty alone leads to lawlessness. It is only together that we can overcome.

      Do you confront a legalist? yes. Just like we in the church should confront a brother that has fallen into lawlessness. Why else would God have chosen to reveal himself in two ways. Until we realize that we all have to walk that tight rope between the two, there will be division and Hatred between Jew and Gentile, and arguments like the ones we have here.

      Grace saves, the law sanctifies, But a new creation, either way requires the blood of the lamb. There is only one way, via the cross. Gentile believer did not have the law ingrained in them, so they have taken the arduous path of sanctification, which is why we need 2000 years, The hebrews know the law, and merely have to accept the testimony of Christ, that is why they have only been given a generation. This is the difference between Paul’s teaching, and the Early Hebrew believers. And why Paul is so hard to understand and accept for the Jewish believers. I think that is why we need another thousand years!!

    • Hi Al,

      Good post. Though poignant, it was well thought out, and very well articulated.
      I agree that the essence of 10 Commandments are still as applicable today, as they were the day that God initially issued them.
      However, I don’t believe that the other 613 commandments, (the taryag mitzvot), necessarily are.
      I think that Yeshua wouldn’t mind at all, if you were to have that yummy plate of ribs that we had our discussion about last year.
      🙂

      Take Care Al.
      Shalom brother.

  38. Hi Dru,

    After perusing your question again, I think that I may have already answered all that you posed?

    I have addressed the 144,000, and the word “redeemed” being that of past tense. As well I addressed the aspect of time frame in that we haven’t been given enough information to really be able to establish anything regarding as to how long any of this will actually take to fruition, or whether they even possibly overlap, and I have also addressed “firstfruits” for you too.

    Within my study of the Ten Virgins parable that I had first posted to DJ above, (Which by the way, has been revamped since you would have read it last.) and its continuation post that you showed the fortitude to read in its entirety, I also believe that I have addressed the last aspect of your question where you say, “Since I see the 144,000 as innocent children, would it not also imply that the firstfruits of Christians are also innocents, being Children of the faith?”

    Contained within that study are the particular prerequisite characteristics that appear to reveal as to what the distinct differences between the “wise and the foolish” are. Especially if one applies the information regarding the “kiddushin” in respects to the engagement period, in that the “kiddushin” could only be cancelled by either “death”, or “divorce”, and that perhaps this “indifference”, this “quenching of the Spirit” described within that study fulfills both of those requirements? Yeshua being not only the Bridegroom, but also Judge, would be the one that would have the authority to define the parameters as to who He would consider to be truly innocent, as you say.

    So I will leave you with that to ponder over.

    I seem to have found myself delving into another word study at the moment. Some “nut” (pistachio) suggested that I look into one. (sigh).

    Shalom & Be Blessed

    • Alienated,
      I am sorry, I just skimmed over the post you made to DJ I will have to read it again. I Just figured it was the same as before. I will get back with you in a couple of days. (Not hat your posts are THAT long!)

      As for the low turnout, Am I scaring them away? I know some people don’t like Pistachios, but they are healthy?? I will be away from the computer the next couple of days, so maybe the turnout will improve!?
      God bless.

      • Dru,

        No dude, I don’t believe that you yourself are the reason for that at all! (I don’t even want you to consider that as a possibility.)
        You and I have had our share of differences over the years, and though they may at times have been rather heated, we are playing nicely and sharing the same sandbox right now. (Pass me that pail and shovel. lol)
        Aren’t we all about demonstrating forgiveness and moving in a positive fashion, forward from things of the past?

        Don’t even go there my brother.

        Heck, it could very well be me that is causing the lack of turn out?
        I certainly don’t know what it is?

        Nonetheless, take sometime.
        I’m going to be busy myself doing that word study.

        Until then, Be Blessed

        • Hey Dru, and Marianne,

          While out for a walk earlier, another possibility regarding the parable of the Ten Virgins came to mind.

          There is nothing within the text that would “confirm” that either of these two groups of five (5) are both believers, (and as such), followers of Yeshua.
          The premise that has been understood with this as being the case, was in actuality an “assumption” based upon the “oil” in being representative of that of the Spirit. Which personally I would still agree with that as being true. However, though that would make one group of five (5) believers and followers of Yeshua, the foolish however, are different, and there are clearly distinctions between the two.

          Could another explanation for these Virgins be, that the “wise” were one group that had been waiting for Yeshua HaMashiach to “return” since they had accepted Him as their Savior, (and therefore had sufficient oil), whereas the other group, (the foolish) had believed in the Messiah, and so was therefore waiting for Him to “come” for what they think is the very first time, having rejected Him initially?

          Is there the possibility then within this context, that the wise are those of the Assembly, (or Church) and it is “they” that are able to enter through that door to the marriage, whereas the foolish are those of Judaism who have not as of yet, recognized who Yeshua actually is?

          Oy-Vey!

          (What I want to know “is”, who ripped out the answer section which should have been included in the back of my Bible when I purchased it!)

          Shalom & Be Blessed

          • Alienated
            The answer section is in your heart, the Spirit of truth.

            This might help, and should be included in your thesis as well. Revalation 19:9 “…Blessed are those who are invited to the Marriage supper of the lamb”. It is the bride who invites the guests, therefore, these are not of the bride, but both groups are blessed.

            Also the bride in revalation 19 are dressed in fine linen, as are the saints described in revelation 6, as part of the fifth seal.

            If you are a king, who would you choose to serve as your closest confidants, and guards? would they not be the ones that are devoted to the point of being willing to give up their life for you?

            Would the bride have to be selected first, and then she invites the guests?

            summary
            Bride=saints, those who have laid down their lives for the testimony of Jesus, and dressed in white, fine linen. She then invites guests to the marriage=rapture. During the Marriage, wrath of God is revealed to those left, and Israel, who will share in the cup of the wrath but survive as a remnant (144000) (aka, Jacob’s trouble)

            Some more thoughts to ponder over. I am curious to see what comes up in your word study, as I believe this will have an impact as well.
            God bless.

            • Hi ya Dru,

              Yes I can see by providing a humanistic perspective, that one would possibly be able to make a case for those that had given up their actual life for You as somehow being more significant in nature. (yet isn’t that in actuality, (though perhaps to a lesser extent), what we all are supposed to do?)

              However, would that also be God’s perspective?

              In 2 Corinthians 11:2., Paul says the following, “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”(KJV.) Yet Paul does not elaborate any further in as to having to actually die a physical death to be therefore honored to participate within this group.

              I happen to believe that there is another specific reason that these Saints, (in Revelation, that give their life for the testimony of Yeshua) are required to do so.

              The word study itself is going to take some time. I will post it here whenever it is finally completed. It may contain some valuable information? We will have to wait and see.

              Till then, Shalom & Be Blessed

              • Alienated
                I agree that Martyrdom is not the prerequisite for being part of the bride. If it sounded like that comment said that, that was not the intent. It is just my frustration with the whole concept of those left behind being unworthy, somehow. We are to take up our cross and follow him, he may not choose us for Martyrdom, but we should be ready for that nonetheless.

                You really do not need to do that study, if you do not have the time, unless I peaked your interest!

                • Hi Dru,

                  My comment was more for those, that may have read what you wrote, misunderstood, and thought that was what you had implied. (You and I have discussed this topic for quite awhile, so I know exactly what you meant.)

                  And just to clarify my position, in no way do I believe, (if the premise of being left behind, is in actuality explained within the Ten Virgin parable), that they are also then unworthy. I just happen to believe that it is a second opportunity for them, (provided by God in His mercy), to truly prove themselves as being worthy.

                  In respects to the study……. Yep, my interest is piqued. 🙂

                  Shalom & Be Blessed.

  39. Hey Dru and Alienated,

    Hope all is well with both of you. I feel it appropriate to address a couple of things that many haven’t considered concerning the commandments. I know that most of Paul’s writings were about salvation through grace alone. I agree with that. What does seem kind of strange though, is that Christianity as a whole cannot deal with the commandments for the reason they were given by Yah; not to earn salvation by our own goodness, but rather to always keep us aware of who we are; to help us prepare for the return of the King; to keep us healthy and make our way prosperous in this fallen world; to keep us set-apart as His people; to keep us on the path that He set us on…etc.. Nothing I have said in this has anything to do with earning salvation.

    Let’s start with the Seven Feasts of Israel that “Yah” commanded Israel to keep. The Spring and Fall Feast are mikra (rehearsals) for Israel to keep so that His people would know his moedim (the appointed time that He would meet with His people). The Spring Feasts were a representation of Yahshua’s first coming, to the year, the day, and the hour. They were to rehearse the Spring Feasts every year to be ready and prepared for the year when their Elohim would keep His appointment with them. So it shall be with the Fall Feasts which are a representation of Messiah’s second coming. Most of Israel blew it on His first coming. My question is, does Messiah’s second coming impact the Christian Church? Don’t you think that “rehearsing” the Fall Feasts would keep these things fresh in us and have us always wondering, will this be the year. I know that we all have this figured out using other scriptures as sound bites that we sting together to come up with our end time scenarios, but the Father chose this way to prepare His people and to keep them ever watching for His coming. Is this part of earning our salvation or a Father’s desire for His people to be watching and waiting for His coming?

    Let’s look at the dietary instructions. Why in the world would Yah want to restrict what we eat? What does that have to do with anything? We find that the foods that Yah said are unclean and were not to be consumed have been found to be harmful and unhealthy for our bodies. So, if we keep the dietary instructions (laws) it will keep us healthier while we are on this earth. So, how does keeping the dietary laws help us to earn salvation? Don’t think that is what they were put in place for, but rather to keep us fit and healthy.

    How about the 10 commandments? Even these are coming under scrutiny as to whether they should be kept or not. You know, that thing about earning your salvation. Is that why they were given to His people? These are specific things that give us an overview of how the King commands that we approach Him and our fellow man. These are not suggestions. Just as the Feasts and the dietary laws are not suggestions. Following His commandments will keep us on the right path going in the right direction. He gave them to us for a light to keep us on His path in a dark world. Is this a way of earning salvation? To those who think it is, then will they be ashamed in the end. This is the love of the Father giving His children what they need to make it through this world with a glorious entrance into His Kingdom.

    One last thing, Yah gave us the instructions in the form of commandments. What does that mean to us? Our Elohim is a Father and King. A good Father watches over and protects his children, teaching them how to live a good, healthy, productive life, with respect for authority and doing the right and acceptable things, giving them rules and boundaries to accomplish those things he desires in them, while punishing them if they refuse to obey to get them back on the right path. As a King, He is righteous and benevolent, giving laws that will steer his people in the right direction for their benefit and for the good of his kingdom. Laws that will teach them what to do and what not to do, all the while using his disciplinary power to keep his people from being in a place of disobedience to the kings commands.

    Some of this might sound a little tongue and cheek, but all I am trying to do is make a point. Yah gave us the commandments to help us in this life. He put them in the form of commands to let us know the importance of these things. What He is telling us is, these things are not an option. He is the Father and King; he has the right to command us in our actions and it is our place to obey. This is not being subject to the letter of the law. As with King David, those whose hearts are right towards the Father, will endeavor to be obedient and please the Father, understanding that these commands were put in place to help us, not to put us in bondage.

    How do you think it looks to the Father and King, when we take the instructions He has given us, to help us and keep us in this life, and tell him that we don’t need His input. That we are doing just fine without it. In fact, His commands are only going to harm us, that we know better and will not miss His rules and regulations. What position is the Father and King in at that point? How many Fathers who have had disobedient children that refused instruction and wisdom, just as Yahshua, looking over Jerusalem, wishing He could protect His children as judgment was coming to them for their disobedience.

    This is not a small matter!!!!!

    Be Blessed My Brothers

    • Hi ya Al,

      I’m good thanks. I hope that you and yours are well also.

      Al, I hear you bro. I understand your position. The points that you make are worthy of consideration. However, could God the Father in wishing to protect Israel, have provided them with the dietary laws to simply protect them from disease, rather than explaining that which was beyond their comprehension at the time? Wouldn’t it have simply been easier for God to tell them for example, not to eat Pork period, rather than explaining to them the dangers of Trichinosis? And though I understand what you are saying regarding the possible health benefits which may or may not be attributed to this dietary law, I would have to point out the number of heart attacks within North America, in which many may have possibly been caused from consuming Beef?
      So personally, it is my opinion that the dietary laws are not applicable to the Assembly today.

      I know the heart which motivates you to choose the things that you choose to do, and I am aware that you realize that Salvation is only through the Grace of Yeshua, and not from any effort done from that of man. So I do listen and respect, what it is that you have to say, (as opposed to those that believe that these acts are part and parcel for Salvation).

      Personally, in respects to the Feasts, I happen to acknowledge all of them. However, that does not mean that say on Erev Pesach, that I sit down to a traditional Seder meal. I believe that Yeshua fulfilled the first four (4) of the Moedim to perfection, and will in turn fulfill the last three (3) in like manner.
      So in my opinion, I agree that these Feasts are still relevant to the Assembly today, but in a different way than they were relevant to that of Israel.

      Look at it this way. Sacrifice, and Offerings were one of the major components regarding the Feasts. Followers of Yeshua have been exonerated from this previously necessary act. So I don’t happen to believe that those of the Assembly, have the obligation nor responsibility in having to participate in them.
      With that said though, I believe that having knowledge of these Feasts, most definitely enhances our Faith.

      Both you and I know, that Leviticus 23 is the only single chapter, (within the entirety of the Tanakh), that sums up God’s eternal plan, and how it is ingeniously revealed through the nature and timing of these Moedim. So I agree that we as followers should possess knowledge regarding them, but that it is not necessary that we also participate within them. (Simply because one is not participating does not necessarily mean that one is unaware that it is taking place, and in acknowledging it, using it to watch and waiting for His coming.)

      In my opinion the Ten Commandments are still relative. However again, in a different way than that of Israel. We can only fulfill them through the Spirit. Carnally it is impossible.
      I have always understood what Yeshua said within the Beatitudes, Sermon on the Mount, as Him revealing that truth.

      How disheartening would it have been for many of these peasant people that were in attendance, in hearing Him say the following, “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
      What do you suppose that they thought that their chances were then, in as to being able to enter into the kingdom of heaven after actually hearing that?

      I suspect “Zip!”

      Yeshua then follows that up, by stating what the Ten Commandments really consist of, and in doing so, revealing that they were completely impossible for man to fulfill. (This realization only added to the burden of their yoke.) However His overall point was, that though the letter of the law, (and the actual essence as to what it fully consists of) was impossible for man to fulfill in his own effort, that it, and more could indeed be fulfilled through the Sprit, for only the Spirit can change the heart. So I believe, that not only can I now fulfill the Ten Commandments as originally written by God the Father, I can by the changing of my heart and through the power of the Spirit, fulfill the essence of those Commandments as well. Something that was impossible for any of us to do before Yeshua’s sacrifice and that of Shavuot.

      If you really look at the Ten Commandments themselves and take them literally as they are written, they don’t even begin to encompass all that we are able to now fulfill through the power of the Spirit.

      So I do hear you Al. I just think that we happen to have different perspectives regarding this particular topic.
      I still love ya’s though. LOL.

      Shalom & Be Blessed

      • Hey Alienated,

        Shalom to you through Sar Shalom. We will leave this as you said, “that we happen to have different perspectives regarding this particular topic”. We have discussed many of these same things before which I believe is always beneficial and never a waste of time. Always a joy and privilege to interact with my brothers and sisters.

        Be Blessed in the full knowledge and understanding of Ruach HaKodesh!

      • Alienated,

        Without opening a whole new discussion about all of the things we have discussed numerous times in the past, I wanted to make one comment based off what you said in the statement above. You made a distinction between Israel and “us”, as if we are totally seperate. You know, the old argument about one being in the old covenant and the other in the new covenant, which is basically how I believe you are approaching this. Meanwhile, I see only one people before Yah, Ephraim (the Christian Chruch) and Judah (the Jews), both comprising “All” Israel. That is why we are at loggerheads over all of this. If the instructions are for Israel alone, and grace only for the Church, and you see them as separate, there will never be an answer to this and what you say makes perfect sense. But, if Messiah is for both Israel and the Church and the instructions are for both Israel and the Chruch (the Church unknowingly actually being of Israel), then does what I am saying make perfect sense. Through replacement theology and the concept of being “spirtiual Isreal”, the Church has rationalized themselves out of this dilema. A lot hangs in the balance over all this. I believe the Two Witnesses will be on the scene before long; Elijah (representing the prophets) and Moses (representing the law-instructions). The 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, will be spreading the message of Yah, which originates in Elijah and Moses, to the people of the world in the power and spirit of Yah. That will be the time of decision when all of this will be made clear!

        Be Blessed brother

        • Shalom Al,

          Sure, I’ll attempt to clarify what it is that I have said above for you.
          With all the different terminologies that we personally use to express our thoughts, I can see how it could possibly be confusing.

          Where I have utilized “Israel” above, it was meant to be representative to that of the 12 tribes, God’s chosen people at that particular time in history.
          They are, in my opinion, (as are all that have not accepted Yeshua for their salvation), “separate” from that of “the new creature, or creation” or that of the Assembly that we refer to as the body of the Church. (2 Corinthians 5:17., Galatians 6:15.)

          I don’t consider myself to be a part of Israel either ethnically, or spiritually.
          However, if asked if I believed that I were a Jew, I would respond to that question with a resounding “Yes”.
          As you are well aware, Yeshua was a Jew, (the King of the Jews), born through and from the lineage Judah. Though the word Jew itself became over time to be a synonymous term that encompassed all of that of ethnic Israeli heritage, I personally believe that to be in error.

          As well, though within the B’rit Chadashah the word “Jew” has been utilized interchangeably to represent that of either an individuals “ethnic” or “spiritual” condition, (or both), Paul specifically utilized the term “Jew” within Romans 2:29., “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” KJV.

          Therefore by accepting Yeshua as our Savior, and in receiving the Spirit that is able to circumcise our heart, we then become this “New Creation” which is a “Spiritual Jew”, (in spite of what our natural ethnic heritage may be). This New Creation is just that, a “New Creation”, and is only comprised of those of Yeshua’s Assembly, and is in itself, separate from not only ethnic or spiritual Israel, (Judaism), but also from anything else that has not as of yet accepted Him, as the Mashiach and YHVH’s only salvation.

          This has nothing to do with what some may initially misconstrue, as being associated with replacement theology, (as you as an ideology, have proposed above). Rather, in my opinion, it has more to do with an understanding of what this “new creation” fully consists of. And that in being “New” does in itself, separate it to a certain extent from that which preceded it.

          Consequently then, I choose to live solely by Faith in that of Yeshua.

          ‘Ahabah & Shalom.

          • Oh and Al,

            If I may pose a question to you as well?
            I noticed within your reply to Pattie that you said something that could also possibly be misconstrued. That being when you said, “At some point in the near future the righteous judge will determine everyone’s fate based upon His Word.”

            Well, I am wondering if that particular statement would be entirely correct?
            For example, within the original Ten Commandments in which the fourth (4th.) would be, “Remember the Sabbath Day for Holiness”, would not this then be considered to be the Word of God?
            Are you therefore saying then, that the Word is what everyone’s fate will be based upon, rather than that of abiding in Yeshua and walking in the Spirit?

            What I am trying to say here is this, if one is say of the Orthodoxy Jewish Religion and they happened to witness perhaps a car accident on Shabbat, they would be breaking the law, (based upon what has been written within the Talmud), if they were to utilize their cell phone on that day to call 911.
            Whereas through the Spirit one would be free from that supposed obligation, realizing that it is better to do good on Shabbat rather than being a slave to the law. Yeshua demonstrated this particular ideology many times within scripture as to being the more productive and compassionate course of action to take.

            I am just wondering as to what it is that you meant regarding that statement, and perhaps you could address it as well when you find the time to respond.

            Shalom.

            • Hey Alienated,

              Blessings to you. I am just writing to let you know that I look forward to answering your question. The work week has started and my schedule is normally pretty full. Will respond most likely by tomorrow. Looking forward to the discussion. Until tomorrow….

              Be Blessed brother

            • Hey Alienated,

              I hope the day finds you well. I wanted to respond to something you wrote yesterday before I answer the question you posed. This is an excerpt from one of you last two responses:

              “However, if asked if I believed that I were a Jew, I would respond to that question with a resounding “Yes”.”

              You made that statement and then used the following scripture from Romans 2:29 to justify it:

              As well, though within the B’rit Chadashah the word “Jew” has been utilized interchangeably to represent that of either an individuals “ethnic” or “spiritual” condition, (or both), Paul specifically utilized the term “Jew” within Romans 2:29., “But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” KJV

              I mean no offence, but you are not a Jew, either ethnically or “spiritually”. This “specific” verse is not a statement of inclusion to the Gentiles, but rather a statement of exclusion to unrepentant ethnic Israel that trusts in the instructions for their salvation and who reject Mashiach. The sister verse to this is Romans 9:6:

              Romans 9:6

              6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

              More than likely, I will not be able to dissuade you from your error, but I will try. All of this is just another example of the misinterpretation of Paul’s writings to throw the Jews under the proverbial bus and elevate the all Gentile Christian Church to a position of the “New” Israel of God. What Paul is saying, is that an ethnic “Jew” is one which is inwardly changed in their heart, not just in the flesh. Paul alludes to the same thing in Romans 9:6 stating that not all of natural born Israel is of Israel for the same reason stated above. As has been said time and time again, it is not about ethnicity!!! We, as Gentile converts are included where is says that “All Israel will be saved”, both Judah and Ephraim. There will be natural born Jews who are not included in this just as there will be those of Ephraim (the Church) who will not be included.

              Likewise in Luke 3:8, Messiah refutes the religious Jews claiming their position as a result of their birthright (their Jewish ethnicity).

              Luke 3:8
              8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

              What are the odds of overturning at least 1700 years of tradition and misinformation? Only through revelation from Ruach haKodesh. The words of Messiah ring loud and clear in all of this; “having eyes to see and ears to hear”. May it be so!!!!!

              Regarding the question you asked me about an orthodox Jew, an accident, and a cell phone; I am no man’s Judge. That is the responsibility of Yah alone, not man. But I will respond to what I said:

              “At some point in the near future the righteous judge will determine everyone’s fate based solely on His Word”.

              I am not going to spend a lot of time on this. The answer is evident and I don’t really understand your concern. What else would we be judged on? Good intentions; I was doing what “I” thought was right; a watered down version of scripture best described as vain philosophy; I am in the “spirit” and not bound by the word; I am justified by what I am doing apart from the word because I am in the “spirit”.

              Yah has made provision in and through His word. His words spoke creation into existence. Any and everything that exists, or ever will exist hangs on His “WORD”. It is the confidence that we have. That is why in scripture Messiah Yahshua is called the Word in the gospel of John.

              Matthew 7:21-23

              21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

              Notice this person, though seemingly doing good and right things (in the “spirit”) has been found to be without instruction or law (even by your Greek translations). You can live as perfect a life in the “spirit” as you are able and achieve a large degree of success with it, but in the end will be judged by the Righteous Judge based on what He gave us to do, not what we necessarily decided to .
              The bottom line is to truly be in the “Spirit” we must be in accord with His Word. If that is not the case we are all left to our own feeling s and imaginations of where we are at in relationship with Yah, unsure of anything. His Word is the foundation for our lives, our beliefs, everything. I do appreciate your question, for it brings into focus all that is wrong on this whole debate about obedience to the Word and living in the Spirit. They are both one and cannot be divided. If you are obedient to His Word, then are you walking in the Spirit. Dividing the two gives you Christianity and Judaism. That is the reason I have said that the Messianics are “closer” to having this right, that any other group of believer’s.

              The final result is that we do not fear being judged by the Word, for if we are one with Messiah, then are we one with the Word, that is Messiah.

              Be Blessed My Brother

              • Shalom Al,

                Though no offence was taken, I suspect that I should address what it is that you perceive as being an error on my part.

                However first, I would suggest for you to read Romans 1:1 through 12, to establish the context regarding the faith of those that this particular epistle is addressed to. The above should be sufficient as a rebuttal to your statement above where you say, “This “specific” verse is not a statement of inclusion to the Gentiles, but rather a statement of exclusion to unrepentant ethnic Israel that trusts in the instructions for their salvation and (who reject Mashiach).”

                Now, regarding what you perceive as being an error. I would agree based upon the preceding text, (17-28), that Paul is in fact admonishing the Jews that are of the faith, and that this passage that I utilized to substantiate my premise, is specifically addressed to them. That would be the literal intention.
                However, beyond the literal intent, could not the verse be also utilized “conversely” then as well?

                That being, since the context of these verses consists of Paul revealing to the Jews, that of their own current state of hypocrisy;
                (That though they may call themselves Jews, having pride in God, being aware of not only of God’s desires, but also by possessing the knowledge of the law, that they therefore consider themselves to be worthy of being judge and guides to the blind, yet, they do not even demonstrate these virtues in their lives themselves).

                The above in brackets being confirmed when Paul questions their behavior by confronting them with the following examples;

                You who give teaching to others, do you give it to yourself? You who say that a man may not take what is not his, do you take what is not yours?

                You who say that a man should not be untrue to his wife, are you true to yours? You who are a hater of images, don’t you do wrong to the house of God?

                You who take pride in the law, are you doing wrong to the honour of God by this behaviour which is against the law?

                Is not Paul in essence here, telling them they are NOT Jews? (Though their obvious heritage would suggest otherwise.) Is not the connotation of what is implied within the narrative saying, “Though you may call yourself Jews, in the eyes of God you are not a Spiritual Jew”?

                So who then would be praised as being a true spiritual Jew by God?

                It is true that circumcision is of use if you keep the law, but if you break the law, it is as if you didn’t have it. If those who have not been circumcised keep the rules of the law, will it not be credited to them as having circumcision? And they, by their keeping of the law without circumcision, will end up being judges of you instead, because you break the law, (even though you have the letter of the law and circumcision). “The true Jew” is not one who is only one publicly, and “true circumcision” is not only that which may be seen in the flesh: But “he is a Jew” who is one in secret, whose “circumcision is of the heart, through the Spirit” and not simply that of the letter; “his praise” is not from men, but is rather “from God”. (Romans 2:25-29. All paraphrasing mine.)

                Therefore I believe that if taken conversely, that one can refer to themselves as being a true Spiritual Jew, (though being Gentile in heritage), and that the term itself is applicable.
                Look Al, I am in no way attempting to change your mind in as to what you happen to believe. Only the Spirit is capable of doing that, and only if it is also necessary. However I am sure that you will agree, that many misinterpretations regarding scripture are caused by the individuals own preconceived ideologies, and that of their particular bias. It is very easy, (and that of our own natural hardwired desire for affirmation), for someone to read scripture and unknowingly, seek that which confirms their beliefs rather than hear what it is that God is actually saying.

                Whereas I, having recognized this particular shortcoming in myself in the past, I pray that it has now been resolved and is no longer an issue.
                Can I be absolutely confident with that? “No!”. Is there still the distinct possibility that my interpretation could then still be fallible? “Yes!”
                However, in being aware of this problem rearing its head in the past, I attempt to maintain a conscious effort to stop it from occurring again.
                I only wish that I could present my beliefs as absolute assertions, and statements of fact as you so easily do.

                Therefore, having said that, I question your statement where you see my interpretation as being equated as to throwing all Jews under the proverbial bus?
                I believe that I have personally demonstrated over the years, by my usage of the Hebrew text, and by presenting a Jewish perspective within many of my posts, that I respect our Jewish foundational roots. It has never been my intention, nor is it that of my ideology, to make light of its significance.

                However, that does not negate the fact that a “New Creation” comprised of all nations tribes and tongues that is under the Lordship of that of Yeshua, is now to a certain extent, separated from those roots. I believe that where you and I come into disagreement, is because of your unwillingness to acknowledge that degree of separation.

                We simply see and interpret things differently Al. And I don’t see us arriving at a consensus any time soon. Therefore, though I could perhaps address some of the other things that you bring up within your post, I see no possible way for it to truly be productive? We are in agreement with the most important of things, and in disagreement in others. Please do not receive that as being personal in any way. This is strictly in respects to our theology, and it has no bearing whatsoever as to whether or not we are brothers in Yeshua.

                It is my prayer for all who truly seek the Lord, that He will provide us with the necessities to remain devoted to Him, and that the rest will be revealed according to that of His appointed time.

                With that I leave you in peace Al.
                Shalom & Take Care.

  40. Dru

    For whatever it is worth

    Mark 10:18-19
    Jesus said unto hi, why call me good? There is none good but one, that is God. (19) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honor your Father and your Mother.

    You have to remember you live in a fallen world.

    The devil had no one making him sin. Those who worship satan and other fallen angels, do not need to but they live by the rules of evil. They are as there father is, and the book of Revelations addresses this issue. They made a choice also, there was no gun to their head. The spiritual adultery in my opinion is the biggest issue.

    If you fail at a commandment and you repent you have an advocat with the father for forgiveness. The word says he is faithful to forgive. Don’t add doctrines of men, Jesus did not like it.

    Hell was made for the devil, not man. God said he is the father of all lies, he was he was a murderer first. He cometh but to kill steal and destroy.

    He says in Matthew and Mark “But in vain do they worship me, for teaching doctrines and commandments of men.

    So many churches want to put people in bondage to law and rules and their own denominational doctrine yokes. The faith in Jesus Christ is at liberty, it is not a doctrine of bondage but of the free, it is not neither bound by satan, or false doctrines or laws. Man makes his own flesh behave appropiately and if he stumbles he gets back up and tries again.
    People who love the Lord don’t normally sin again, they fear him as a mate fears their spouse. The fear is fear of the loss of the loved one and their companionship, loose of their own soul and missing eternity with the Father.

    You are however suppose to be a law obiding citizen within your land.

    We don’t need two thousand years to get it right, Jesus got it right!!. If any have a desire to go under the law when God wants them out, he has lost his mind or he lacks trust in God?.

    They are like those people who need fences not to keep others out but to keep themselves in. But we are suppose to kill our flesh daily, this is our job. Freedom came by the gift, and it was with a high price. A owner of anything with title or of integrity does not have to have locks on it in order to keep it as a position. As the title of ownership speaks to the true owners and names, just as the gift does.

    Do we not think that God defends and keeps his sheep? I would like to remind you without faith it is impossible to please God. If our gift through repentance is so fragile, why would any want the gift or accetp it. It would be gift of bondage, we are not under bondag. The Jewish children came out from under bondage before the old testament law was instituted and then again by the destroying of the law by breaking the law.

    So if the gift is so fargile and you can destroy it so easily? How can you be told you are his children, his bride, to come boldly to the thrown room of grace. Maybe no one on this site has ever been happily married?

    Gifts given of this type, which are ensured with love as the bond are not easily broken. The old was broken by spiritual infidelity and any who do the same under this covenant the error and punishment are same. You are separated from God unless you repent. You must love everyone, not hate any, forgive all and when one is lost try and lead him back in that he/she not loose his/her soul.

    The old law was government, the health department, and worship rolled up into a religion. Each part made the other part difficult to acheive with sacrificing live flesh. Why would you want to do something so complicated that can send you to hell for getting it wrong? Worse then that why would you throw Gods’ gift in his face, if you trust and love him. If you don’t love or trust why bother?

    Can any one tell me, how many thoughts do you have every day that are yours and how many do you have projected to you that are not yours? Have you ever heard anyone say where did that thought come from? I feel pretty certain when God says the evil comes from the evil, it comes from the evil and the good come from the good. He also says dont call evil good and good evil. he loves and trust us but we dont trust ourselves seems to be the bigger concer. the laws and rules are not for the lawless but for the law abiders . Most of our sins arrive from an outside influence.

    They are ground rules, you don’t need them as a yoke, use them to instruct and understand the mind of God. The Holy ghost to lead and guide you in a path of righteouseness for you sake?

    Hope this does not make it more confusing but clears up the issues.

    • Hey Pattie,

      There was a specific reason I asked about being “under” the law. You equate keeping the commandments with being “under” the law. In some cases that is true, but in others it is not. One who is “under” the law is subject to the Law and will bear the consequences and penalties of the law. These are people who try to earn their salvation by keeping the law outside of Faith in Yahshua. Those who embrace the One who gave the law and rest in His mercy and grace for their salvation, though keeping the law (for our benefit and out of obedience) are not bound by the letter of the law, and neither do we bear the consequences and penalties of the law. This is what the Christian Church does not understand and is exactly how Paul is constantly misinterpreted. Little sound bites are taken out of context and thrown around to try and build a case to justify what the church is doing and condemn those who would choose to follow the whole counsel of Yah; having faith in Yahshua and keeping the commandments.

      You are right, though, when you say that anyone that desires to be under the law “has lost his mind or he lacks trust in God?” You just didn’t realize exactly what you were saying.

      Be Blessed my sister

    • Hi Pattie,
      When I discuss things like righteousness vs. obedience to the law, I am not saying that good is evil and vice versa. What I am saying is that we are guided by the Law of Love as described by Jesus himself. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. Also he added to this by saying “love one another as I have loved you”, which is even harder to abide by.
      I know that the distinction I made between righteousness and wickedness, vs. good and evil appear to contradict. which is true in our sinful world. but in the abscence of sin, they are one in the same, the Law of God, and the voice of God are one in the same. The sinful world makes them contradict.

      To put it another way, Let us say we are living in germany in the 1940’s, and we see the attrocities committed by hitler. Are we commiting a sin if we assasinate him to spare the lives of millions? Yes, we are a sinner, for we fail to love our enemy. It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are made righteous. It is not our action that is righteous, it is our attitude. we still need to repent of the sin of murder. We are still a murderer, and no better than hitler. These types of decisions grieve me. As they grieve the Lord. They are a product of a sinful world. Is it God’s will that we assasinate hitler? That is the big question.

      I know this is one of those hard topics, but it is one worth exploring, as it leads to the cross. It leads us on our knees to the cross, daily! It leads us to yearn for his coming like never before, as we face these decisions daily in smaller ways. A white lie being an example of one i often cite. Soon we will face even tougher decisions as the tribulation comes in. will we accuse our brothers and sisters in Christ to save our own lives, or will we lay down our lives for them, as Christ did for us?? Are we ready for that?? There is only one “good” answer to these questions: “come Lord Jesus, come”.
      Matthew 5:2-11

  41. Hey Pattie,

    Never spoken with you before, but would like to ask you a question; what does it mean to be “under” the law? We all understand what the law is, but the pivotal word in that phrase is “under”, which is the word you used.

    “We don’t need two thousand years to get it right, Jesus got it right!!. If any have a desire to go under the law when God wants them out, he has lost his mind or he lacks trust in God”.

    Looking forward to your response!

    Be Blessed

  42. Hi Al,

    We have not communicated before and really I do not wish to spend a lot of my time on this or any other blogs unless I feel it’s important to share something for the benefit of others.

    So re. BEEF, in my opinion no one really got sick or died of eating beef and other permitted meats when they were eaten in moderation and as per Yahweh’s instructions (e.g. not eating the FAT, blood etc.)… until the damnable things began to be fed to our livestock that in turn started affecting the health of humans.
    And of course we have the GMO, our air and water contamination that also contributes greatly to ill health of all living things. In the past livestock were fed natural-feed particularly fresh leaves & grasses that contain chlorophyll which has structures that increase the (vitally important) oxygen in our bodies – http://www.energiseforlife.com/wordpress/2009/02/11/health-benefits-of-liquid-chlorophyll/
    http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer/Wheatgrass.html,

    Nowadays it’s even worse e.g.. “Aborted fetuses” in our processed foods and seasonings? – http://followersofyah-oct-nov-2011.blogspot.com/p/therecomes-time-when-any-rational-human.html and ….

    Human hair in our commercial breads. http://healthfreedoms.org/2011/12/27/true-fact-a-common-ingredient-in-commercial-breads-is-derived-from-human-hair-harvested-in-china/

    Continued on Page 2…. PLEASE READ it is important.

    • Hi Jes,

      I appreciate the information, though not very appetizing. Yah would never condone foods for consumption that were not healthy. Unfortunately, it is in our fallen society that such things are done in commerce for the almighty dollar. Hope to converse with you at some point down the road.

      Be Blessed my sister in Messiah

      • Hi Al,
        Thanks. I agree with what you say. I pray Americans will wake up and see what they are being fed …. and this is also affecting other nations as these same meats are being exported to them.

        Shalom & Blessings in Messiah Yeshua.

  43. Page … 2 – Re. BEEF

    Here is some thought on meat eating for all who might be interested that will explain the serious illnesses of Diabetes, Cancer, Obesity etc.. However, those who don’t agree, please do you own online research as well as youtube so that you can decide on what type of meat you want to eat .. Organic, Kosher or the other.

    (Quote)
    NO WONDER THE COWS ARE MAD! I recently read an excerpt from a book called, Mad Cowboy, by Howard Lyman. It tells us about what we are eating in our meat these days. It’s pretty disturbing if you’re a meatlover, but people should know the truth. When a cow is slaughtered about half of its’ weight is not eaten by humans, like the horns, hooves, intestines, head, as well as bones and blood. These are dumped into giant grinders at what’s called rendering plants. Along with these items are diseased animals, euthanized pets, animal control waste (roadkill), horses, chickens, and fecal matter. The city of Los Angeles alone, for example, sends some two hundred tons of cats and dogs to a rendering plant every year.
    When the gruesome mix is ground and steam cooked, the lighter, fatty material floating to the top gets refined for use in cosmetics, lubricants, soaps, candles, and waxes. The heavier protein matter is dried and pulverized into a brown powder, about a quarter of which is fecal matter. The powder is used as an additive to almost all pet food as well as livestock feed. Farmers call it “protein concentrates”. In 1995, five million tons of processed slaughterhouse leftovers were sold for animal feed in the U.S. In 1997 there was a growing concern over the spread of bovine disease. The FDA then issued a new regulation that bans the feeding of ruminants (protein from cud chewing animals) to cattle. So cows are no longer eating other cows. Now, in and of itself this sounds like very good news. The trouble is, they’re still munching on ground up dead horses, dogs, cats, pigs, chickens, turkeys, and fecal matter.
    About seventy five percent of ninety million beef cattle in America are given food that is “enriched” with rendered animal parts. About 1.6 million tons of animal waste is disposed of like this annually. In Arkansas, for example, the average farm feeds over 50 tons of chicken liter to cattle every year. One Arkansas farmer was quoted in the U.S. News & World Report as having recently purchased 745 tons of liter collected from the floors of local chicken raising operators. After mixing it with small amounts of soybean bran, he then feeds it to his 8 hundred head of cattle, making them in his words, “fat as butterballs”. He explained, “If I didn’t have chicken liter I’d have to sell half my stock”. Other foods are just too expensive to use he explained. Remember that when you eat your next steak! However, there is an alternative and safe way to eat redmeat, it’s called “kosher”. Then it’s slaughtered properly and only grain fed.
    However, getting to a kosher market for some may be next to impossible. It may not take care of the entire problem, but soaking your meat in salt water will help get the blood out. http://houseofjoseph.tripod.com/archive/index.htm (Unquote)
    Be Blessed.

    • Hi ya Jes,

      Well hey… thanks for that, (lol) …. can’t wait to sit down to “Din-Din’s” now.

      Man, to quote the title of the late great Louis Armstrong, …. “Oh what a wonderful world.”

      Yeshua Come!

      • Hi alienated,

        Did you read Page… 1 ? I am sure I posted it and then I posted Page…2. Page one too has a lot of info and links that everyone should read.

        Louis Armstrong humm! and Nat King Cole with the velvety voice … truly it WAS wonderful America, wonderful days …. too bad with what’s happening .

        Yes, may Yeshua come soon!

      • Hi alienated,

        I didn’t see Page …1 and now I suddenly see it … maybe I need to change my glasses Lol!

    • Yumm!?

  44. Al

    When you under something it is sign of being under some form of control. The type of control depends on the one holding the cord, or yoke, or pressing down or lifting up, or giving freedom or putting into bondage, or putting under the law or giving grace or oppressing or setting at liberty. These scriptures put a clear picture of under according to the word.

    Job 28:4 (BBE) He makes a deep mine far away from those living in the light of day; when they go about on the earth, they have no knowledge of those who are under them, who are hanging far from men. twisting from side to side on a cord.

    1 Timothy 6:1 Let as many servants that are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

    Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out from under their bondage, and I will redeem you with an outstretched arm, and with great judgements.

    1 Corintihians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law

    1 Corinthians 15:27 For he “has put everything under his feet”. “Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this it does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ

    Isaiah 57:5 You burn iwth lust under among the oaks and under every spreading tree; you sacrifice your children in ravines and under the over hanging crags.

    Galations 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone who continueth in the law not in all things that are written in the book of the law to do them.

    Romans 6:15 “For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under the law but you are under grace”.

    Hosea 8:10 Although they have sold themselves among the nations, i will now gether them together. They will begin to waste away under the oppression of the mighty King.

    James 2:11-13 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgement without mercy,
    that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

    Not sure where you are going? but as you did ask, so did I do.

  45. Al

    Not sure how but this text I am responding was either not there or I over looked it. So forgive me, I was not being rude.

    So I would like to respond just a little more if I might. I would like to say I have friends who are Jews. Some are believers in Jesus christ and others are not.

    I receive all of the word, the Old and the New. The Old teaches, instructs, and helps in governing ones life. The words are good for understanding the spirit of God and for helping to discern certain things and it can give me indication on leading of ways regarding God.

    My plan of salvation includes fear of God and of a desire to try and please him. I don’t have to be told to do something to do extra, as it has always been to my benefit.

    I do my best to keep the commandments, but I do not follow all of the eating laws. I can not say that I never broke a commandment as that would make me a liar. But I can say that the blood of Jesus washed me and make me whole from the submersion in water baptism in his name and by receiving him I am also as an heir a reciever of his grace.

    I study the Old Testament and find that know matter how many times you study the Old or the New, there is always meat. I find that the his Holy Ghost leads and guides a born again believer. So depending on what is going on in your life determines what part of the word you will view, or take hold of, it does not matter if it is of the Old or the New.

    I don’t separate God into boxes. I am a believer that God is Father, Son and the Holy Ghost. God is a spirit. My Dad was a minister, my grandmother and evangelist and my great grandfathers were ministers also. It is odd but sorts like the linage of Levi in geneolgy for a gentile. My sibblings and I were raised to love all of the Jewish children. I know that God loves us all, and some are weak and others are strong. The strong bear up the weak and they also bear greater burdens for understanding and are given greater strenghts based on these issues.

    I am not a person of works, I know my entering in to the Kingdom of Heaven will be from the grace given to me by receiving Jesus christ as my Lord and Savior. Dont misunderstand this, as I have dedicated my life to him but we are all unworthy of him. Grace is much like favor under the Old covenant. I pray for the nation of Israel and consider it to be the homeland of all faith pertaining to God and the Messiah Jesus Christ.

    Understand I did not go back and read any of your other text, so all that
    I write here is without knowledge of you.

    I consider from my personal knowledge that the Jewish people are a very honorable people. So even though we do not all believe the same things, I respect the Jewish people. I know they are the apple of Gods eye.

    In Ezekiel 37:12-14 it makes some things clear to me as a New Testament believer. These verses are prophetic verses and speak to the time of the end. He speak to the valley of the dry bones. Israel as a
    remnant will be back in her homeland but unable to totally possess it because she as a majority of her people did not at that point in time accept Jesus Christ the Messiah. He makes it clear that there will be some who still do not believe, but he says in these days he will put his spirit in them, and he will put them back in their land and that they shall possess it and that they will know that he the LORD spoke it and he the LORD performed it. Since he is speaking to the Valley of dried bones, and we know this represent the nation of Israel. It makes it clear for me with Romans 11:25 And so all of Israel will be saved;as it is written, there shall come out of Sion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Verse 27 says this is my covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins.

    I suppose the thing I always find most difficult is the words in Zechariah,
    he speaks of the Jews having broken their covenant with God. He says that Beauty and Bands were broken. So my question to you is two fold, if the Old covenant was broken by the people due to idolatry? and you can not keep the part of the law that pertains to sacrificing, where in do you worship?

    Please don’t take my questions the wrong way. I am not here to throw rocks. I never heard anyone say before that they hated Apostle Paul, but on the other hand if you don’t believe in Jesus Christ. I guess it should not be shocking that you would not believe in any of the Apostles even though they were Jews.

    I just reread your post again, not wanting to miss a question. I read another nugget of information, I did not pick up earlier. So please forgive me. I had a funeral yesterday and my mind is sort of all over the place. It is getting late and I don’t want to have to redue this post as I will be getting ready to go worship the LORD.

    So help me understand when did you gain all of the things spoken of and the dismisal of all of the penalties, posted above? As what you speak is the new covennat. Is it possible that you are saying that you are a believer. Maybe the light just went on! Are you of the New covenant, believing and worshipping in Yahshua the Messiah or Yahoshua the choosen one or Yahshua Ha’Mashiach, the son of Yahweh?

    Please help me understand this comment of yours, “those who embrace the one who gave the law and rest in his mercy and grace for their salvation thou keeping the law, are not bound by the letter of the law neither do we bear the penalties or consequences of the law” These are my believes, I am at liberty in him who died for me (you can call him by any of these names and be accurate if you are speaking of the one who died on the cross and is the Messiah) Iam born of the spirit and the blood, and it is by his grace that I am saved, because he is merciful and longsuffering fo us. (this is the very short version)

    If that be so then are you baptized in his name and are these as I write also your plan of salvation? If this is the case then we are on the same page, as I keep watch with all of the words of the Bible not just the New.

    I hope this is understandable and if I misunderstood or misquoted I did so by accident. But some how I fear that must be the case, other wise where is all the issues?

    • Hey Pattie,

      What I am endeavoring to do is get those of Western Christianity to open their eyes beyond the traditions that were handed down to them from the third century AD. I am a born again believer in Yahshua HaMashiach, who is my salvation and justification. I also observe the commandments, feasts of Israel, and the dietary instructions. I am not Jewish, but I am of Israel. I am not saying that I live in Israel but I am of Israel; basically still in the diaspora. And NO, I am not a hater of Paul. I have found that most of the Christian Church doesn’t understand what he is saying, while many of the Messianic Jews who have faith in the Messiah and still keep the commandments don’t understand either. Both groups think Paul spoke of doing away with the instructions; Christians love it, some Messianic Jews hate it. Both groups love Messiah, but one keeps the commandments, the other doesn’t.

      The reason I wrote you was to make the distinction of being “under” the law compared to living in the “liberty” the instructions afford us through the Messiah. The liberty I am talking about is living a more complete, safe, healthy and knowledgeable life while we are on this earth, while being in a place of obedience to the Father. All the while, the majority of the Christian Church holds to Messiah, but in a state of iniquity (lawlessness). Most will never see or acknowledge this. At some point in the near future the righteous judge will determine everyone’s fate based solely on His Word.

      I am not trying to be argumentative, just open and to the point. Forgive me if I have sounded hostile or offended, I am neither, only trying to bring out the truth.

      Be Blessed

  46. Al

    I have no issues with you. I am in the savior and he in me so, I have peace.
    You said nothing that offended me. If another mans opinions effect your
    faith, how great is your faith? It would surely be without hope.

    Be blessed

  47. Hey Alienated,

    I understand that I came off pretty strong. It is honestly not my aim to offend or be in contention with you or anyone else. But the nature and content of what we are discussing to a real degree opens the door for this. Truly, I have much respect for you and many others that write on this blog. The knowledge level is extremely high and at times is a little intimidating. I see you and many of the others as brothers and sisters. Forgive me if I tend to be kind of matter of fact. The problem is we are on two different sides of one of the most important topics we can be talking about that literally affects everyone in the Church. The problem is the Church for the most part doesn’t even know there is a problem. I am going to write about that but would like to clear up one more thing from my last post to you. The statement about throwing the Jews under the proverbial bus was not meant to be personal. I was referring to those who came up with this and propagated it through the years, though I do believe we all bear responsibility for passing along something that has had such an insidious impact on a specific ethnic people, basically the Jews. But these are our traditions that have been handed down to us. It all seems harmless enough to spiritualize Romans 2:29, but we need to ask ourselves, in doing so, how am I impacting my brothers and sisters, the Jews? Who knows how many Jews have been tortured and/or killed, through the centuries, for the doctrine of replacement theology that has come out of this verse and other verses similar to this one? We need to remember, for at least 1700 years, the Jews were not decimated by a pagan people (per se), but rather by the Christian Church.

    I want to make clear what I meant when I said you are not a Jew either ethnically or spiritually. The Jews (the goy) maintained their ethnic purity, while the 10 northern tribes were assimilated into the nations (the goyim). In Hosea 1 it speaks of the casting off and the return of Ephraim (the house of Israel). For brevity I will just show the return;

    Hosea 1:10-11
    Restoration of Israel

    10 “Yet the number of the children of Israel
    Shall be as the sand of the sea,
    Which cannot be measured or numbered.
    And it shall come to pass
    In the place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are not My people,’[d]
    There it shall be said to them,
    ‘You are sons of the living God.’
    11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
    Shall be gathered together,
    And appoint for themselves one head;
    And they shall come up out of the land,
    For great will be the day of Jezreel!

    This is who we are, returning Israel (Ephraim). It is we who have received the double portion and are called “sons of the living God”. The point is we do not have any need to be considered spiritual Jews. We are already the brethren of the Jews and as such, citizens of the Commonwealth of Israel. Gentiles trying to be spiritual Jews are not recognized by the Father as Jews. He already knows who we are. We are the harvest of Israel from the nations. Gentiles trying to be spiritual Jews only impacts the Jews and only in a negative way. I didn’t mean to give this much space to this, but these things are important to understand. The Church could fill hundreds of libraries on all that they have written, but they have no clue who they are in relation to Israel, or they do and don’t like the implications. Only Yah knows for sure.

    One last thing, my brother, I normally respond to only posts that have discussions regarding Israel and the Church. It is why I am here. When I get off onto some other rabbit trail, it normally doesn’t work well. This is what I believe I have been given by Ruach haKodesh to talk about and that is what I am going to do. I know it goes against the grain in the Church, but these things need to be said and heard. If it makes things uncomfortable, then so be it. With that being said, I would like to say something about Messiah’s second coming.

    In the first coming of Messiah, the Jews missed it because His appearing didn’t look like what they were expecting. Luke 19:41-44;

    41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

    This was their “visitation”= the appointed time (moedim-the Spring Feasts-Messiahs first coming) when Yah met with His people face to face. What Messiah said sounded foreign to them and was not what they expected it to be. Notice He said “if you had known, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes”
    .
    We are in the time of His second visitation- the appointed time-moedim-the Fall Feasts-Messiah’s second coming. How will Israel, both Judah (the Jews) and Ephraim-House of Israel (the Church) come out of this the second time? What will the message be by Moses and Elijah, and the 144,000? Will it seem foreign to us, and not be that which we will be expecting? The spirit of Elijah was at the first visitation in the person of John the Baptist and will be present this time along with Moses. The message will be that of return (teshuvah) to the ways of Yah, and His Messiah, who is the Word-Torah (remember that John said that the Word was made flesh. That makes Yahshua the embodiment of the Torah). If you will remember, before His crucifixion, Messiah met with Elijah and Moses on the mount of transfiguration. The following scripture is Malachi 4:4-6;

    “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
    Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
    With the statutes and judgments.
    5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
    Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
    6 And he will turn
    The hearts of the fathers to the children,
    And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
    Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

    These are the lasts words written in the Tanakh. The next words written are from the book of Matthew, close to 500 years later. The message will be to remember the Torah of Moshe, and to turn the hearts of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) to the children (House of Judah-the Jews and House of Israel-the Church) and the hearts of the children to the fathers.

    How do you think this message will resonate with the Church and with many of the Jews? My guess would be about the same as it was with Jews during His first coming. This is why it is important to speak of these things. The Church will never hear about these matters sitting in their respective assemblies. The Church is totally unready for this because these things are “hidden from their eyes”. The Jews are turning to Messiah, while keeping the commandments, by the thousands. The Church, on the other hand, is the most at risk here. The Church is in decline and totally closed off from what is coming at them in the near future.

    I know there is a perception in the Church that Christianity is the new more modern way to worship, while the commandments are reminiscent of something more archaic and outdated, all the while the Church has evolved to a higher state of worship, as has been stated by the term “in the spirit”. The logical progression of all this has basically made the instructions irrelevant to the Chruch. The enemy convinced ancient Israel that Messiah was not for them. The enemy has now for at least 1700 years convinced the Church that Torah is not for them. We think we are too sophisticated and spiritual to follow instructions. That it is somehow beneath us to do such a thing.

    One last thing I would like to share with you. The first Passover was in Egypt, which was symbolic of the future coming of Messiah and the saving power of His shed blood. Yah then brought them to Mt Sinai to cut the covenant with His people. He told His people they had two days (two thousand years) to wash their garments clean and to be ready by the third day. It was at Sinai that Yah gave the Hebrew people His instructions. When Yah came to them on the “third” day He blew the ram’s horn (shofar) to call His people to Him, which signifies the future fulfillment of the Fall Feasts. The people responded, all that you have said, “we will do”.

    Jes made reference to the Mosaic covenant being a marriage contract between Yah and His people. It set the conditions of what was expected in the marriage to keep the marriage pure. The instructions (law) basically being the conditions of the Ketubah (marriage contract) between the bridegroom (Yah) and His bride (His people). Notice the response by the people, basically “we do”.

    If you will notice, Passover ( Messiah) came before Mount Sinai (instructions). That is the order of things. Messiah saves us first, “then” He makes us His handiwork or His workmanship through obedience to His instructions. The Church has the first part but has totally rejected the second part of this. The Church-the House of Israel-Ephraim (the betrothed) has basically broken their marriage vows with Messiah. So what happens now? There are always at least two witnesses at a wedding to verify that all elements of the marriage contract are in accord with the word.

    Moses and Elijah will be here in the very near to make sure that all elements of the Ketubah-instructions-marriage vows are being adhered to according to the word of the bridegroom. May we be found to be of His workmanship and one with His Word!

    As always, I hope for you blessings and Shalom in Mashiach

    • Al,

      Honestly bro, you are like a pit bull regarding this!
      (I was gonna say like a ”fat guy on a pork chop” but realized that for you, that more than likely wasn’t applicable.) lol.

      Is all the above for the most part to support your theology regarding the Dietary Law?
      That is the original topic of discussion right?

      You know that I resect you as well Al, and I don’t mean to sound flippant here, but haven’t we expressed both sides of this with each other, (and others) to exhaustion? You know that I personally, (being also Spirit filled) do not consider the dietary laws to be in effect. Nor do I believe that they are a make or break aspect regarding our Salvation. Neither do I even believe that in some way, they are a demonstration of obedience to our Lord Yeshua.

      I am aware that before the law was ever given to Moses that God had designated some animals as being clean and others unclean. (Genesis 7:1-3.)

      I am aware that when the law was given to Moses, that more specificity was provided regarding this, within both Leviticus 11, and Deuteronomy 14.

      I am aware that what some may misinterpret as being regarding dietary law, was in actuality, Peter receiving revelation from God that Gentiles are not unclean and are instead welcome to become a part of God’s family. (Acts 10:10-16.)

      However I also believe that we are under a New Covenant of Grace, and that Paul was a true Apostle/Prophet of our Lord Yeshua.
      And that Romans 14 and 1 Timothy 4:1-6. can not be misunderstood.
      And if you also believe that Paul was a true Apostle, (having been the only one within scripture, (prior to John) in being “caught up” to heaven), then I would sincerely reflect upon 1 Timothy 1-6. and what “the Spirit” has to say regarding this topic.

      I live by Faith and Faith alone, and for me I accept that Yeshua’s grace is sufficient in all things.

      I wish you well Al, I truly do. But if you wish to continue debating this topic, you are going to have to find somebody else to discuss it with.

      Shalom & Be Blessed

      • Hey Alienated,

        Shalom to you my brother! Just wanted to make a brief general comment and then will cease from this discussion with you. My initial post on this thread was concerning instructions vs no instructions. It was addressed to you and Dru. The overall focus was on the validity of the commandments and their relevance today. I don’t believe I singled out the dietary instructions and made them my focus. From the first book of scripture to the last, relevance for the commandments can be established. To establish a case for the commandments having ceased with the first coming of Messiah is relegated to only sound bytes that come out of the letters of Paul. In having said that, I realize that Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Scripture says that every matter should be established with two or more witnesses. Who is the other witness? Why would Yah break from the ground rules He set up in the beginning? Those are rhetorical questions and do not require a response. I went back and re-familiarized myself with Romans 14 and 1 Timothy:1-6. What you consider to be a slam dunk for the abolishing of the instructions is anything but that. Even in these verses that “seem” to be so clear, the interpretation of the Church is in error and that is not just me saying that. I won’t go into it for the desire that you stated to not speak of these things. Just wanted you to know, no hard feelings and love you as a brother.

        Be Blessed in Messiah

        • Hi ya Al,

          I believe that the Ten Commandments ARE applicable to the Assembly today, but that they can only be fulfilled by an individual that has the Spirit, (and even then, not fully to perfection).

          Look at it this way and see if this doesn’t make some sense, when YHVH gave Moses those Commandments, they served a duality of purpose.

          1) They were instructions for the people as to how God wished for them to live, (though they were impossible for them to do, therefore the need to constantly sacrifice for atonement and draw close again to God was necessary).

          2) They were also the proverbial “bar” that YHVH had established, that only Yeshua Himself, (as man filled with the Spirit) could FULFILL.
          (It was necessary for Yeshua being born under the law, (Galatians 4:4.) to fulfill all of what YHVH had placed at the foot of man, to QUALIFY as the UNBLEMISHED LAMB. and be the suitable “one time” sacrifice for atonement. (ergo, if the law (that was impossible for man) had never been put in place, there would have been no “measuring stick” in which to separate Yeshua from anyone else. He was the only One righteous enough to be able to fulfill the totality of it all and become the unblemished Lamb. That is why He didn’t come to destroy the law, but to instead not only fulfill it, but to propagate the essence of it as well.)

          Therefore they are a “code of conduct” so to speak, as to how we are to live our lives, even though none of us are able to do it to perfection, (Spirit filled or not). However, the essence of these Ten Commandments can also be summed up into two (2) basic precepts;

          1) That we shall love the LORD our God with all of our heart, all of our soul, and with all of our strength.

          2) That we love one another, as Yeshua loves us.

          If we do those two (2) things to perfection, we then also fulfill the Ten Commandments to perfection.

          Regarding the Taryag Mitzvot or the 613 Commandments;

          What is interesting and should also be taken into consideration, is that scripture itself also tends to condense the various commandments of Torah into more general principles, that become fewer and fewer in number. For example, within the Talmud “Makkot 23b-24a” a discussion takes place where the commandments go from an enumeration of these 613 commandments which are identified within the Torah, to David reducing the number to eleven (11) in Psalm 15. Then from there Isaiah reduces them further to six (6) in Isaiah 33:15,16. Micah then reduces them to three (3) in Micah 6:8. Isaiah then further reduces them to two (2) in Isaiah 56:1, where finally the “one essential commandment” is voiced through Habakkuk in Habakkuk 2:4. “But the righteous shall live by faith.”

          So if we believe that Yeshua fulfilled the law, died on the cross to atone for our sins, and we live by faith in that, “BUT” then believe that we must add to that somehow by following any other thing we believe is a necessary requirement, doesn’t that in itself negate the act of Faith?
          We live by Faith, and any time a “but” is introduced, that faith therefore is nullified. Do these “buts” then not become “works”?

          Though you posed a couple of your above questions as being rhetorical in nature, I will provide the following for consideration.
          Paul always had another Apostle accompany him on his ministries knowing full well the requirement of having two witnesses. As well within scripture, Peter himself witnessed for him in 2 Peter 3:15-17.;

          15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
          16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
          17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before , beware lest ye also , being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. (KJV.)

          No hard feelings are felt by me towards you either Al.

          Shalom & Be Blessed.

      • Hi Alienated,

        Just thought I would restate one of the questions you answered. It has to do with the second witness to Paul. I unwittingly left the question a little to vague. Lert me first say as I have always said, I believe that Paul was sent by Yah to the Gentiles, and though much of what Paul said was hard to understand, the other 12 disciples accepted his ministry and understood that he was a Torah observant believer and was not anti-Torah. With that being said, this is the question: If Paul was teaching (as the church believes) that the commandments were done away with, where is the other witness saying that the commandments are obsolete and unnecessary? In addition to that, why was he still Torah observant? Wouldn’t you think that something as major as this would have more than one person talking about it, and that in such controversial terms?
        Yah, who said He changes not and is the same yesterday, today, and forever, all of a sudden pulls the plug on the most pivotal doctrine in all of scripture and that against His own words which said, let every matter be established with not less than two witnesses. If as you and the Chruch say that the commandments are not for us and not to be observed, where is the other witness? There has to be at least one more clear witness to this or all of this is suspect and runs contrary to Yah’s own word. The other apostles being in agreement with Paul does not make the case. What that says is that Paul was Torah observant and not teaching the end of the instructions, though hard to be understood.

        Be Blessed

        • Hi Al,

          I am going to conduct a thorough and in depth study regarding this topic, by approaching it from holding the position of either side.
          (A debate against myself so to speak.) And I will attempt to do so with an unbiased heart.
          I will post my results here at some time in the future.

          Shalom & Be Blessed

          • Talking to yourself now? Ha! Ha! Next thing you know you are going to start referring to yourself in the third person. They have medication for that!

            and you call me a pistachio (nut).!!

            • Huh, I never thought of that? That could be a distinct possibility?

              Thanks Dru.

              alienated will remain cognizant of that to ensure that doesn’t happen.
              🙂

  48. dear IBM

    I love you as a brother in the Lord, but I think you need to let jesus decide who gets raptured.

  49. dear IBM

    There are multiple websites that discuss preparing for the tribulation. I have a few posts on it, but they are more detailed.

    I am not sure many will survive, but jesus instructed us to “endure to the end,” so that is what we must attempt to do.

    People should prepare for a famine. That is for sure, and also for economic collapse. This has already started in Europe.

  50. “Then the pain will start when Jesus holds the doom.” What kind of doom is Jesus holding? What part of the Bible reads Jesus holds the doom?

    Thank you,

  51. dear IBM

    Why would you ask me that?

    In my last answer, I more or less agreed with you. 🙂

  52. I reckon so, but why would folks on this web site not make the cut to be saved from the doom? Is it because most here do not pray to the Queen of Heaven, or see the Pope as Christ on earth?

  53. Jesus does not need protection, he is the word of G-d made flesh. Jesus, and the disciples did not create the Orthodox, or Catholic Church. Those were created by men with all types of pagan Holidays. Like Lent, Easter, the Queen of Heaven, and infant babtisim.

    The real Christian Church are those who say their prayers to G-d the Father in Christ name, and have the Kingdom of Heaven inside themselves. Loving their neighbors, and fellow humans.

    The church you write about grew out of the Roman empire worshiping Tammuz, and Mithrus at Christmas time. Dividing when Rome broke into two parts. The East, and the West.

  54. IBM

    I do not think one branch of Christianity has a monopoly on holiness.

    We are all called to be holy before the Lord.

    Where we go to church, or if we go to church at all, has no bearing on the final outcome.

  55. Lol! Do you talk to a priest about your sins, or do you pray stright to G-d the Father in Christ name asking for forgiveness? Do you pray to dead people you call Saints?

    I know some people who are Orthodox. They call their priest Father, and they pray to the dead. The Bible reads call knowone Father except G-d the Father, and the dead can not hear, see, or talk to the living. The witch of Endor talked to the dead, but they were just the Nephilim.

    Jesus lived a perfect life, was murdered, and rose from the dead for all mankind. Not just the Orthodox Church.

    • Hi Leatherneck,

      Couldn’t help reading the ‘preposterous comments’ by IBM so just hopping in here for a moment with this info:
      – Greek Eastern Orthodox
      http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/greek_eastern_orthodox.htm
      – Russian Orthodox Church
      http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Russian_Orthodox/russian_orthodox_exposed.htm

      Check out the other links on these other ‘Othodox churches’ branches of hell – Revelation 17.

      • Jes,

        I do not agree the Othodox Church are branches of hell. Nor, do I believe most of those who are Othodox will be sent to hell. Christ will have mercy, on whom he shall have mercy.

        It is easy for us to get mad when someone states you, or I will go to hell. However, that is the time to take a deep breath, and try to reach someone who believes in Christ already.

        The Church, both Orthodox, and Universal is full of paganism as they both allowed pagan holidays into Christianty to bring in pagans. Now, we have a huge problem.

        I did not write anyone was going to hell, so let us not write branches of hell. Remember, all of us fall short of the glory of G-d, and have earned hell today.

        • I didn’t say anyone is going to hell. I merely found the websites and learned that all those Orth.churches are a part of the whore of Babylon and so shared those links.
          I regret I communicated with you and from now I’ll refrain from it for it’s truly difficult to say anything good or bad to ‘christians’ for they think they “know it all”. So just ignore the links and the comment itself. What a bore!! Never again.
          Bye, and have a nice day.

          • You took me the wrong way. That is the problem with black, and white letters. It does not convay emotion. I did not think you said anyone was going to hell.

            Peace.

  56. The Universal Church, and the Soviet Union persecuted the Jews, unless you want to change history.

  57. ibm
    Long time no talk. How are things going in Syria? Do you have any news from friends/family there? My concern is for the church in Damascus, are they mixed up in the violence we see on the news?

  58. IBM
    I agree, Isaiah 17 will be fulfilled soon with regard to damascus, that is why I asked the question. I am sorry, I thought you were the one that had family in Syria from previous discussions, it must have been someone else.

    Sounds to me like “doom” is coming to all the wicked, wherever in the World they might be, No?

  59. So where are we to go? How is a poor man going to find refuge, but in the arms of Jesus? My death is no victory for them (muslims, Satan), and my death will only glorify God. The way I see it, Satan’s persecution is a win, and God’s wrath is a win, win for those follow the “Good Shepherd”. The harvest is ripe for the “doom”! Jesus will have no trouble separating the wheat from the tares.
    God bless

  60. You are out there in left field pal. There is nothing in the Bible that causes G-d to do anything other than what he wishes. So, just because a murderer named Muhammad said something does not get G-d to do anything. Damascus will be destroyed for other reasons.

    Stick to the Bible. Paul stated we will not all sleep, but get caught up in the air with Christ. There is plenty of room there for everyone.

    Jesus does not bring doom. We bring doom on ourselves for turning away from G-d’s orders on how to live, and love. Plus, enjoying pagan Holidays like weeping for Tammuz, and Easter.

    Are you getting your Easter eggs ready?

  61. Ibm
    “If you say Jesus is God You are doubting the Holy Ghost”
    I will not argue this point, as I promised Marianne, But suffice it to say, You are believing in the wrong Jesus, who himself in his own words claimed to be God.

    John 14:2 “In my house are MANY rooms, if it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?”

    Actually there is ample evidence in scripture to point to an autumn date for Jesus’ birth. I think we all have the birth date wrong for Christ.

  62. do you think Jesus is the reincarnation of king Solomon?

  63. Ibm
    I told you I would not argue that point with you, “Jesus is God”, Jesus himself connected himself with “Yehovah Eloyhimn” by saying “before Abraham was, I AM.” (see 1 Tim. 3:16)

    That being said, I do not trust a church, a Vicar, or Pope, to save me, I trust the blood of the lamb. My belonging to a sect of Christianity does not save me, just like no works that I can do will save me. It is only by His grace alone that we are saved, “Not by works, lest any man should boast”. This is 100% biblical. The questions you need to ask are: do we submit to an institution of man or to God’s will? Is that 112th pope Christ, or the antichrist? Are you assured by the Holy Spirit that this is so? One of us is right, while the other is under a “strong delusion”, which is it?

    As for my misquote of John 14:2, I quoted from memory, but I Use Jesus and God interchangably. Just as Thomas the Apostle said “My Lord and My God” when he saw Jesus. Jesus affirmed his confession and said “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

    Is your faith based on what is “seen”, or what is “not seen”? “Now faith is the ASSURENCE of things hoped for, the conviction of things not SEEN” (Heb. 11:1-3)

    God bless.

  64. I think much of this discussion is based on not what is literally said, but what is meant by the words that ARE said.

    Did Gabriel actually mean Jesus was Solomon that had returned, or did he meant he was descended from David?

    Absalom was also David’s son in the flesh.

    Jesus healed a woman who he called the “daughter of Abraham.” Does this mean she was literally a reincarnated daughter?

    But scripture does not mention daughters born to Abraham, just sons.

    I think you would have to establish first that Jews believed in reincarnation to identify Jesus as the reborn Solomon.

  65. Ibm
    I think I answered your point above. I am convinced, and assured of what I believe by the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit of Truth that guides me. If you are trying to convert me to your ideology, good luck trying. The other half of Jesus is that he was fully Human, “The root of Jesse”. God Humbled himself, and came in the form of a Human to die for his creation. Instead of fighting this, try to see the beauty and the Love in his actions. For “GOD IS LOVE”. And this is the epitome of Love, to love those who do not deserve that love and have rebelled against God.

  66. Your understanding of the trinity does not even agree with the Catholic dogma on the trinity.
    “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ (God, Divinity) has come in the flesh (Human) is from God.And every spirit that does not confess Jesus, is not from God. this is the spirit of the antichrist….” (1 John4:2-3)
    Now even most atheists will “confess” that Jesus came in the flesh, (ie. was a real person), so this is not the confession sought for here to test the spirits, but it was a confession of his annointing as king, Messiah, and, and God incarnate, not a reincarnate Adam.
    Or how about what Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16 “He(God) was manifested in the flesh.” The “He” in this passage can only refer to God himself as is indicated by the context of verse 15.
    Yes he was “born of the Spirit”, but this not take away from the fact that his flesh was fully human. He was not some hybrid human/immortal, for he died on the cross. and returned to his former glory as God upon asscension. His flesh was fully human, and his spirit was fully divine.

    As for the Vatican writing on this site, there are many who believe that the pope is the antichrist. I personally do not believe this, as the pope still confesses that God came in the flesh in the person of Jesus. This does not mean that some future pope will deny this dogma. I believe that the catholic church is the women that rides the beast, as spoken of in revalation, which will be destroyed by the antichrist, and that the false prophet MAY be a pope, but it could also be a protestent religious leader of some sort, or a muslim Mahdi. The middle one I find harder to believe, because the protestent movement has no unifying leadership figure such as the pope, Not yet anyway? Have there not been popes in history that have been considered “bad” by subsequent popes? Have there not been popes that have abused their office of power? So too there are protestent leaders that are wicked and abuse their power. That is why we must submit to God, and not man.!
    I will end with that, May the Holy Spirit speak through these words.

  67. since the pope is not god, you cannot blaspheme him .

  68. Ibm
    I would like to point you to a website that has the catholic dogma on the trinity. It is found in sections 253-256 You will see that according to the catholic church, each part of the Godhead is FULLY God, while yet distinct. Pay attention to the last line of the quote from St Gregory of Nazianzus.
    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm

    That being said, do you feel that the murder of 20-50 million “protestents” was the right thing to do. Is that not by definition, tyranical rule. This is no different than the muslims beheading infidels. I would like to think that the catholic church has moved on from this doctrinal error, as the large part of the protestent movement has turned the page on antisemitism. Has the catholic church overcome the Nicolaitan spirit?

  69. John 5:19

    Jesus is equal to G-d the Father. The word G-d uses to create has been made flesh for a sacrifice for human sin. G-d died for us because he loved us so much.

    Jesus is not Adam, or any other human. Jesus has a perfect human body, and the spirit from G-d the Father to be able to live a perfect life. G-d the Father has to have a perfect sacrifice for sin, and only G-d can live a perfect life inside a human body.

    Thank you G-d the Father for loving us so much.

    In Christ’s name.

    • Amen Leatherneck,
      Lost in the debate is the gratitude we should have for this most undeserved of gifts.

      • I enjoy reading your posts Dru. You bring insight.

        It is strange to me so many do not see clearly, and embrace paganism. I have a hard time understanding this, and worry so many refuse to believe in Jesus who was murdered, and rose from the dead as a human sin offering.

        It is also hard for me to stay in a loving frame of mind when folks post far out, or plainly pagan stuff. However, I believe I am getting better.

        I wish you the best of luck in staying calm too.

        G-d speed to you,

        L.

        • Dru and Leatherneck,

          Howdy boy’s,

          Just thought I’d “pop-in” to see what has been happening while I have been gone, (in doing my current study), and thought that I’d make a comment based upon an observation.

          I think that the composure level that has been demonstrated by the both of you during the course of this discussion with IBM has been exemplary, and is clearly the work of the Spirit.

          Kudos to you both.

          I am almost finished with the study itself, and hope to return shortly.

          Till then, Shalom & Be Blessed.

  70. Ibm
    If God Loves the vatican, why will he destroy it?
    Even the orthodox church believes the Nicene creed. So your beliefs are not in line with either the catholic, nor the Eastern Orthodox church, but are more in line with muslim teaching? Yes time will tell who is right. I Happen to believe what the bible says, the Word of God. Not the word of Man. My Faith is in the testimony of Jesus. That is what you must believe, not the testimony of man, or a church. Search the scriptures for the Truth.

  71. It is sad to hear you speak so. You speak like the Europeons looking down their nose on the rest of the west or Muslims snorting their hatred and arrogance on the rest of the world, so you confessing your theology and creed snort at everyone else not Orthodx or Catholic. Your creeds are old and wretched miserable and poor and naked and the Lord counselled you to buy gold tried in the fire and white raiment that your nakedness be covered for you have disclosed your flesh and been found wanting. For this sad arrogance the seven candlesticks in Turkey were removed and those of you left are naked and your bones are bared and your eyes are blind IBM. It is a pity to hear such pride and reminds me of McDonalds book of the Princess and Curdie where Curdie is given the gift of the fire of roses and when he takes the hand of any, he sees where the creature is regressed to and is warned of its darkness. The Lord himself told his disciples that whoever does the will of God is his brother his sister his mother. It is not a church that saves but a repentant heart and the confession of the blood of Christ shed abroad in our hearts. It is Those who confess Jesus Christ is Lord that saves you and not confessing the Orthodox or Catholic church is what saves you. Will you not see that the Word is gone forth to all the Nations of the earth and has brought forth a great skein of fish and not your two pitiful strumpets who have done this. Ahhh well I am sad today and find your remarks most pitifully blind and lost.

    • Well said marie jean – it was high time someone slammed on the blasphemy – and you did it. It is DISGUSTING to hear or read about anyone that denies the Divinity of Yeshua(Jesus) or even His Virgin Birth or to even carry on conversations with such people is like enjoying the jokes against the SON OF GOD YESHUA. I have been reading a lot about such things on other blogs as well… and I have no choice but to give each of them a good piece of my mind for Yeshua Himself says:
      – Rev.3.15 – “I know your works; you are neither cold nor hot; because it is necessary that you be cold or hot,”
      – Rev.3.16 – “So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of my mouth.”
      – Rev.3.17- “Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
      – Rev.3.18- “I counsel you to buy gold from me, proved by fire, that you may prosper, and white garments to put on, lest the shame of your nakedness be revealed, and eye salve to apply that you may see.”

      I don’t feel sad for the blind who refuse to be led into the Holy Light of Yeshua our Messiah.

      You did good, be Blessed!!

      • Jes
        Sharing the gospel in the hope that the Lord will reach that soul, is not petty conversation. I am trying to point out to IBM that he does not believe in the God of his forefathers in the orthodox church, which has fallen into apostacy. Jude says to “snatch them out of the fire…” and “have mercy on those who doubt”, as Jesus mercifully revealed his wounds to thomas who doubted, so too will he reveal himself to IBM if he is part of his plan. As you pointed out in the websites above the orthodox church has become heretical. That does not mean individuals cannot be reached and brought out of that church. How would the church have grown, had Paul and the other apostles avoided conversing and debating with Pagans and blasphemers. It is with Love that we are to reach them, and not hatred.

        • dru,

          History is very important here so find out who these ‘orthodox’ churches are.

          I have been reading the responses and what I see is blasphemy against Yeshua… that I cannot tolerate. I do not wish to argue or debate with you, you are free to do what you want and think what you think.

          Have a nice day.

          • I respect your opinion, Jes
            Even Paul realized that there was a time to “kick the dust off your sandals” or something like that, when it became hopeless. My limit for this is a bit higher than most, as Christ has taught me not to give up on people, Just as he did not give up on me when I fell away from him.
            But even he had to “spank” me a couple of times for me to wake up and see how I was rejecting him.
            God bless.

      • Jes,

        Did you read my responce to you way above?

        • Leatherneck,
          do you and Marie jean go to the same church or something? You should read her responses on the other page on Jordan. Made me think of you.

          • lol lol I don’t think so dru. I live in the far north and probably could be found at many different churches and synagogues.I don’t have a problem with going to most Christian churches, messianic congregations or synagogues. So many people are at different places in their faith walks that it is difficult to judge anyone so we tend services as Christ did the synagogues or whatever it was they met in.

            March 23 Jes thanks for the texts, I am rather neglectful at writing them out.

          • Maybe, we had the same Gunnery Sgt. But, I will go see what you are writing about.

  72. IBM
    The only response I have is to point you to one of those writings that you say we do not know about, and the hymn associated with it, to show how far your church has fallen into apostacy.
    http://songsandhymns.org/hymns/lyrics/let-all-mortal-flesh-keep-silence

    This is one of the oldest hymns in the church, and dates well before the split between east and west. As you can see, “Christ is God” was affirmed back then. So are you saying that the Litany of St James is wrong.

  73. IBM
    What you are saying is Arianism, which is the reason we have the Nicene creed, to correct this error for which Arian of Alexandria was excommunicated from the church. Your church also accepts the Shepherd of Hermas as scripture, which also denies the deity of Christ, though more covertly than Arianism.
    Your thinking is in opposition to the Pope, and the catholic church, therefore you cannot claim its protections on you. (not that the Pope is capable of protecting anybody)

    Man was created to be man, not little gods. This is the end result of all Arian thinking, which claims that Jesus as the son of God was created by God at some time after he came into existence, Meaning that all created beings can become like gods.This is the concept of deification (theosis) that your church is a proponent of, which is apart from God’s plans, and is the deception used by the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Now I know you will defend this by saying this is what salvation is all about, to become Christ like in nature, But this is a reference to our sanctification by grace, not the elevation of man to be more than how God created Man. When God created Man it was said to be “good”. Man tried to be like God, and it became “No good”. Humanity has tried to elevate themselves to the position of gods ever since then, whether by religion, works, or denial of God.
    Humility is understanding that creation cannot elevate itself above its created state. Humans were given free will so that they can choose to remain human, or make themselves god. To be Christ like is to humble oneself, and submit to the will of God. Not exalt ourselves above humanity.

    It is ONLY God who will glorify us when we submit to him, and even then it will be only a little above the Angels of heaven, and not to the status of gods. Jesus on the other hand returned to his former Glory, as there is nothing Greater than Almighty God.

    The Lord sent you here for a reason, and not just to practice your english. You are a leader in your church, and Teacher, But can the teacher still be taught the truth, or will they still defend the error of their ways. This is pride versus humility at work again. The original sin. Will you continue to elevate yourself, or will humble yourself and submit to his will? I speak from experience, as one who tried to elevate himself, and He put me in my place, all the while reassuring me with his Love. You said your church changed its beliefs 40 years ago. How could you turn on the faith of your forefathers, and deny the testimony of Jesus? Are you and your church more enlightened now, or is it falling into apostacy? That is the question you MUST answer, As Apostacy was predicted for the church. It is not the church that saves, it is the blood of the Lamb, shed on the cross that saves.
    Please do not take my words lightly, for they are not mine, but from the Holy Spirit. Do not react to them defensively as you would a human, but interact with them. Consider what is said here carefully, and with an open mind.
    God bless.

    • Al,

      Hello Al……..

      Hi,

      Sure hope that you happen to read this. (Perhaps Marianne can send ya an email informing you of my request here?)

      As you know I have been working on my study regarding Torah, (and whether Torah is actually law, (instead of direction or instruction) and also whether anything other than the Ten Commandments are applicable to the Assembly today).

      And as you are also aware, “brevity” is not necessarily my forte.

      Because of that particular short-coming of mine, when I finally compile all of this information, it would be impossible to post it here and expect anyone to read it in its entirety. (When it is done, I will discuss other possible alternatives as to how to do this with Marianne.)

      However I do have a request that I would hope that you could fulfill for me.
      Would you be kind enough to provide a list of all of the passages within scripture that you believe would support that of your position? (ie; Ezekiel 11:19,20., and 36:26-28., if you believe them to be evidentiary support?)

      This way I could possibly post something here, (that would not be ridiculous in length) that would address specific passages.

      Thanks.

      Shalom & Be Blessed

      P.S. Good post in response to IBM above. (I wonder who it is from?) 🙂

      • Yeah,
        I just saw that, Its my gravatar name, which for some reason comes up everytime my computer reboots itself???? You can probably guess my middle name from it. My Laptop Got fried by a worm or a virus, and now i’m back on my antique desktop, which does not seem to remember my name for long periods of time and reboots itself, not to mention you can see the smoke coming out of the gears when I have to load something. Kind of sounds like its got a wood burning processor in it. !

        • Hi Dru,

          Ummm, ………. David Vedgua Something?

          Is that close? Am I warm?

          LOL.

          • what is Vedgua?

            • LOL,

              Just me playing with Dru, and being my typical nutty self.

              Dru said regarding his Gravatar name above, “You can probably guess my middle name from it.”
              So I looked it over briefly, couldn’t figure it out, so picked beloVEDGUArdian and threw that out there as an unlikely shot.

              Mind you I have heard that Vedgua if prepared just right, is wonderful in a Falafel.
              🙂

  74. I was under the impression Martin Luther told the Pope to stop having children out of wedlock, stop selling tickets to heaven when building buildings, and that no man comes between men praying to G-d the Father in christ name. Plus, humans should be allowed to read the Bible for themselves, there is no Queen of heaven, and it is grace that allows us to go to heaven only least any man boast.

    I suspect, Jesus was a Jewish Rabi who was a carpenter. therefore, he woould have had dark hair, and even darker skin working outside.

    It is the paganism with the Universal Church, as well as the Orthodox Church that has mislead millions, and gets me fired up.

    In the beginning the word was with G-d, and the word is G-d. The word was made flesh for a sin offering. The word mad flesh is a new type of creature that man can follow, and the word is not Adam plus a whole bunch of other humans put together.

    Jesus can forgive sins. Only G-d can forgive sins. If you have seen me said Jesus, you have seen the Father.

  75. IBM
    You say your faith has not changed, yet you admit that the entity that contacted you changed your belief in the deity of Christ. Are you sure that this Entity was from God, and not his adversary in the guise of an angel of light, as paul the apostle warned of??? So are you saying that all those who died belonging to your church that believed in the deity of Christ are to be cast into the lake of fire for holding that belief???

    This Belief in the deity of Christ is the very foundation of Christianity. The Apostle John Tells us to test the spirits based on this belief (1John 4:1-6). Paul claims that Jesus is God in the flesh, (1 timothy 3:16). Jesus says that before abraham was, I AM, or Me and my father are one. The apostle Thomas Calls Jesus my Lord and my God, which Jesus affirms. James the brother of Jesus Calls him “The Lord of Glory” (James2:1). Luke says he is “Lord of all” (Acts 10:36). Matthew the Apostle says ” for the Son of Man is Lord of the sabbath” (Matt. 12:8), a title that was only given to God throughout the Old testament. Not to mention the OT prophets who foresaw the coming Messiah, who proclaimed that God is our salvation, Which is where the name “Yeshua” is derived from in hebrew. So you are prepared to deny all these witnesses and cast them into the lake of fire, even Jesus himself.

    So I suppose your reaction would be the same as the high priest, who stood judging Jesus accusing him of blasphemy, followed by the council spitting on him and condemning him to death? (Matthew 26:64-68)

    I am sorry, Call me old fashioned, call me a heretic, I will stick with the testimony of these people over some entity who denies all the apostles and Jesus himself. I will affirm what paul said to the romans, “for the same Lord is Lord of ALL” (Romans 10:12) Indeed it is you and your church that has been deceived by one of the fallen Ones with great signs and wonders, leading your church into apostacy. Such is the deception of Satan himself, But do not worry, for the Lord will come soon and war against him with the sword of his mouth.

    I will close and end this debate with Paul’s words to the corinthians.
    “But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different Gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough…. for such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light. so it is no surprise if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds” (2 Corinthians 11:3-4, 13-15)

    Corinth, HMMM! is that not part of the orthodox churches territory?
    May god awaken your people from the deception that has taken hold of the Orthodox Church!!

    • Ibm
      I forgot to mention Peter, the supposed first pope, who you would have to throw into the lake of fire for saying “Our God and Saviour Jesus Christ” 2 Peter 2:1. That is pretty much all the writers of the new testament.

  76. Wow, “Rapture Ready” and there are postings on the organized church thing and other “issues”.

    Get ready “Body of Christ” for Tribulation and forget about Pre-Tribulation rapture.

    Pre-Trib was an “interpreation” but it was a distraction for many within the “Church”. The careful prepation of their lamp: trimming (read the Word), filling with oil (Holy Spirit) and remaining attending to the Body and being under Christ as He is the Head of that Body.

    I was distacted far to long by the “rapture” out of the world and not preparing to overcome – as the Lord clearly expects of His Bride.

    Here are my offerings to the request for proof. Some proof and not all of what could be posted here.

    The author of this post presents 3 proof texts from scripture, which sets forth God’s provision during a period of “Wrath” without a “rapture” (in form or fashion of Hal’s or Tim LaHaye’s works of fiction and conjecture of prophetic writings with great passion). The proof text accounts are as follows: Noah (Flood over the earth), Lot (Fire and Brimstone upon cities), and the Children of Israel in Egypt (Death Angel overcomes a nation/people).

    We also have the following pieces of information presented as “proof” but you could argue some of the following are interpretations. Please, I’m just trying to play along with the proof thing.

    First:

    On the Yom Teruah Feast, September 29th, 2011, the Mo’edim (appointed times) in the stars show Virgo clothed in the sun and the moon at her feet, Venus in her womb with Saturn next to Venus. Within days, (as Saturn begins to leave Virgo), Jupiter (God) is above the constellation Cetus (Leviathan – spirit of pride as written within Job) and Mars (war) is in the heart of Leo (King of kings and Lord of lords) was above us on November 11, 2011 – this is all per Revelation 12.

    Next:

    The years 2016 – 2018 are very important markers. These are end of the 70 years generation time frame of the “leaves of the fig tree”. Depending on your understanding the establishment of Israel as a nation (1948) or UN proclamation of Israel as a nation in (1947).

    This is critical to the “end time” timeline.

    By the date of this posting (March 2012) we are within the 7 year period we know as Daniel’s timeline or the 7 years of Tribulation as set forth in Revelation. Therefore, the Pre-Tribulation rapture is no longer valid by the same logic “they” put forth these as key markers after the Six Day War in 1967 and every day since then. We are past 70 years + 1947/48 and no “rapture”.

    Next:

    120 years from the first Zionist Congress. (Yovel of Yovels120 = Length of Years (Gen 6:3)
    100 years since the Balfour Declaration giving Israel the right to be a Nation. (100 = Bondage)
    50 Years from capture of Jerusalem temple mount (50 = Jubilee: Release of Debt – Peace)
    40 years from the Camp David Accord and Israel’s conflict with Lebanon (40 = Testing)

    Next:

    The Four Seals of Revelation gives us great insights. The first seal opened on October 9, 2009 (on the Feast of Trumpets no less). “He” began his ride on a white horse of power but talking peace and given a “crown” (prize) of peace. He “confirmed peace with many” that day without ever signing a peace agreement or treaty. His power was given to him only a few months prior to receiving the international “crown”, then the process of conquering and to conquer began in earnest and continues today.

    The 2nd seal (fiery red horse) opened with “Arab Spring”, beginning in Tunisia on Saturday, 18 December 2010 and continues today with a fury and international interest within Syria. “To date, rulers have been forced from power in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, and Yemen; civil uprisings have erupted in Bahrain; major protests have broken out in Algeria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Morocco, and Oman; and minor protests have occurred in Lebanon, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Western Sahara” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring). Demonstrations formed on the ground of the Dome of the Rock this past year – calling for Caliphate to return to the people of Islam.

    What is “Arab Spring” accomplishing everywhere there is been a “rebellion” of the people in the “region”? The original language text reads terrain/region not “earth”. It is bringing Quran based government/leadership rapidly upon the people of those Islamic countries and bringing the common culture of Caliphate. Diplomatic offices around the world support these uprisings as a form of “people’s movement towards self-governance”. In select situations of rebellion – the US, NATO and the UN engaged in diplomatic, military, and/or economic support of these causes when necessary to bring forth régime change as in large nation states: Egypt, Libya, and now Syria.

    All of this occurred over the past several months over a very specific terrain with multiple governments/kingdoms/peoples and all under the banner of Islam.

    The US Treasury just gave (without Congress approval) over a billion dollars to Arab Spring leaders in Egypt – which can and will be, shared throughout the “region” no doubt for unscrupulous purposes.

    What brings the rider out and drives him is the “spirit of Anti-Christ” and “he” is currently riding a red horse with a red banner promoting “rebellion” in the “region” or “terrain”.

    “He” is also able to ride the black horse. The US Federal Reserve (reluctantly) and the World Bank, IMF and the Reserve Banks within nations around the world are working to establish a new world currency system that replaces the US dollar as currency market standard. It is not a matter of when but how.

    The currency decision rests with a select few within the United States and associated diplomatic, economic negotiations with banks/institutions within China, Japan, Brazil and Europe (G7).

    When the current world currency system changes: the stability of the euro falters and US dollar as the reserve standard changes, bringing a new world currency standard within 2012 – consider the 3rd seal fully opened and get ready for the “pale” horse to ride out soon thereafter.

    Very soon, “he” who rides all four horses will be revealed to the world as the “Beast”, But “he” is not interested in or beholding to any one particular “religion”. He is interested in using, leveraging and gaining influence by any means possible – including international political position, world military strength, national legislation, international agreements and diplomacy, and religious beliefs for his greater purpose – conquering and to conquer. With the assistance of the False Prophet, he establishes himself as the focus of worship. That False Prophet should be showing up in the next few monhts. Witneesses – yes.

    But, right now – we are within the 7 years of Tribulation, as written by the Apostle John, revealed in parables by Jesus Christ and expounded by Paul’s in letters to the early Church. The Pre-Trib rapture window has passed months ago.

    I understand and accept the following warning from our Lord.

    “I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these] predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book” (Rev 22:18-19, AMP).

    I firmly believe and humbly present with the fear of God in my heart along with a slight bit of humor – it is time to prepare and “overcome”. “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death” (Revelation 12:11, NKJV).

    The rapture, as written within the Holy Scriptures, is at the “last trumpet” (Rev 11:15) and not some blast from a Pre-Tribber angel excited to get on with the wedding feast. No, the trumpet call comes in an orderly manner – as Scripture presents. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets and that is when the last trumpet sounds. This is when we are gathered up unto Him and the heavens proclaim what occurs – it is a Mighty sound.

    “The seventh angel then blew [his] trumpet, and there were mighty voices in heaven, shouting, The dominion (kingdom, sovereignty, rule) of the world has now come into the possession and become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ (the Messiah), and He shall reign forever and ever (for the eternities of the eternities)!”

    Remember – we were told for years, we can also read for ourselves, that 70 years (Psalms 90:10) from 1948 (or 1947) and 50 years (Jubilee) from 1967 are the marker for the end of the age or “end times”. Therefore, the end of the Tribulation period is between 2016-2018. Please, don’t buy the 80 year notation because all the other signs are all pointing to 70 years and the end of the age is upon us.

    Even the Mayan’s got it close to begin accurate with their calendar (2012 begins the end of the age). But they received their information from a different source who knows his time is very short.

    What when wrong with those markers and the “rapture” predictions?

    The Word of God tells us about the fig tree, gives us a heavenly sign in Revelation, and describes the four seals opening, along with other signs/evens. Those are all holding true as 2009 to 2011 was the beginning of the Tribulation and 2016 to 2018 is the end – based on events, dates and signs.

    Well, we are well within those beginning dates that established the seven year period and there is no “rapture”.

    Get ready for some serious trials and testing of Faith, Hope and Love.

    My educated guess is that October 2009, Feasts of Tabernacles, was the beginning of the 7 year window of Tribulation, the Great Tribulation begins within 2013 and God’s Wrath soon thereafter.

    As for experiencing God’s Wrath – see the proof in the original posting above. Our Heavenly Father provided a way for the righteous or “those that are chosen”. His way of provision during the last days is not by a Pre-Trib rapture until we are gathered unto him at the “last trumpet” and that is well into the 7 year period…”no one knows the day or hour”. We are to “overcome” and I trust my Good Shepherd.

    Read Revelations 2 and 3 carefully to learn what happens to the 7 Churches during the time of Tribulation and what “believers” are to do.

    Please, read the Word daily and give ear to the Spirit, pray without ceasing and make sure your testimony is in order with Peter’s letter to “Believers”, the Body of Christ.

    “Beloved, I implore you as aliens and strangers and exiles [in this world] to abstain from the sensual urges (the evil desires, the passions of the flesh, your lower nature) that wage war against the soul. Conduct yourselves properly (honorably, righteously) among the Gentiles, so that, although they may slander you as evildoers, [yet] they may by witnessing your good deeds [come to] glorify God in the day of inspection [when God shall look upon you wanderers as a pastor or shepherd looks over his flock]…[Live] as free people, [yet] without employing your freedom as a pretext for wickedness; but [live at all times] as servants of God. Show respect for all men [treat them honorably]. Love the brotherhood (the Christian fraternity of which Christ is the Head). Reverence God. Honor the emperor… For one is regarded favorably (is approved, acceptable, and thankworthy) if, as in the sight of God, he endures the pain of unjust suffering. [After all] what kind of glory [is there in it] if, when you do wrong and are punished for it, you take it patiently? But if you bear patiently with suffering [which results] when you do right and that is undeserved, it is acceptable and pleasing to God. For even to this were you called [it is inseparable from your vocation]. For Christ also suffered for you, leaving you [His personal] example, so that you should follow in His footsteps. He was guilty of no sin, neither was deceit (guile) ever found on His lips. When He was reviled and insulted, He did not revile or offer insult in return; [when] He was abused and suffered, He made no threats [of vengeance]; but he trusted [Himself and everything] to Him Who judges fairly. He personally bore our sins in His [own] body on the tree [as on an altar and offered Himself on it], that we might die (cease to exist) to sin and live to righteousness. By His wounds you have been healed. For you were going astray like [so many] sheep, but now you have come back to the Shepherd and Guardian (the Bishop) of your souls” (1 Peter 2:11-25, AMP).

    Blessings.

  77. “Jesus said to much last time he was here.”

    Good luck to you.

  78. I do not think this argument is making any progress.

    Perhaps people prefer to keep their own viewpoint.

  79. IBM
    It is time to end this, why even call yourself a christian if you deny the teaching of all the writers of the new testament. Remember the serpent in the Garden said surely you will not die if you eat thereof, so he was predicting the future. Eve did not physically die then and there, so he must have seemed like a real prophet performing signs and wonders. That is what the false prophet of revelation will do (is doing). Satan also tempted Jesus this way as well saying the angels in heaven would save him if he jumped off the heights of the temple. You have taken that leap, which Jesus rejected taking, and for now it seems like this false prophet is a true prophet, but he failed to pass the test for the spirits as described in 1 john 4, by denying the deity of Christ. Isaiah, speaking of the Messiah said his name shall be “wonderful, counsellor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, prince of peace.”(9:6) Which means that by denying that Jesus was God, you are denying that he is the Messiah, Christ. Good luck with that.
    It is time for me to shake the dust off my feet!

  80. Ibm
    I will answer your question on Stephen this way. Is any created being worthy to stand at the right hand of God? No man, angel, cherubim, or any creature is worthy of such an honor except the the Lamb OF God.

    The conversation is over.

  81. No, Arianism says that Jesus was created, like Adam, The Word of God, Jesus always existed as part of the eternal triune Godhead. Yes there are distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), But they are one God. To deny the existence of one person is to deny the whole existence of God.
    “begotten” means a single one of its kind in the greek. This alone should make Jesus distinct from Adam, as Jesus is the “only begotten” Son of God.
    As John Puts it the Word became flesh. Immortal God put on the mortal flesh. The Lamb of God is God, The Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God.

    I could go on, but obviously this is not going anywhere, as Marianne said.
    goodbye.

  82. It looks like this discussion is continuing even though no one agrees.

    Just believe in Jesus for your salvation and you are headed in the right direction.

  83. You Got the Last word. Shalom

  84. The entire first chapter of Heb. quite definatively exalts Jesus as having far greater status than angels and is far more than a refurbished angel as the JW’s believe. Perhaps this chapter in Heb’s was written to counter this same teaching which already existed at that time. The mystery of God is Jesus Christ Col 2:2 and must be revealed by the Father, as Peter experienced, if it is to be uderstood at all.

  85. Psalms 18 contains insights for the Great Day of the Lord. “Revelation” is within the verses of this Psalms taht brings a clue – a prophetic message. I believe this adds proof (along with Malachi 4:1-4 and others) to my position that believers will be “left behind” as the wheat is left and the tares are taken away. Here a few verses from Ps 18 to get you started.

    “Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of the hills also quaked and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up from His nostrils, and devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with darkness under His feet. And He rode upon a cherub, and flew; He flew upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness His secret place; His canopy around Him was dark waters
    And thick clouds of the skies. From the brightness before Him,
    His thick clouds passed with hailstones and coals of fire” (NKJV).

    Please, read the complete Psalm and see how God protects the righteous. It is through spiritual delieverene and overcoming the enemy (spiritual) and not by a physical “rapture”.

    Once again, Peter tellls us the Truth –

    “Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because- ‘All flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away, but the word of the Lord endures forever’ ” (1 Peter 1:22-25, NKJV).

    • good points

      🙂

    • How do you explain Paul’s writings that we will not all sleep, but be caught up in the air with the Lord?

      • there might be a timing issue here….if it is after the tribulation, then it is just the 2nd coming….and not a “rapture” even if the end result is the same

      • there might be a timing issue here….if it is after the tribulation, then it is just the 2nd coming….and not a “rapture” even if the end result is the same

      • Hi Ya Leatherneck,

        I am going to make a reply post to Dru, regarding Matthew 24, (which will also touch on your question here) on the “The Church is stuck inside” thread.

        I will hopefully get at it late Sunday or Monday, and you can check it out then. Perhaps it will bring some clarity?

        Shalom

  86. Hey, could you do me a favor, and ask Jesus to let me into the New Jeruslam on Nibiru? I don’t want to get stuck down here eating turtle, and snake to make ends meet.

    Thank you,

  87. Hello again ibm, Got a new android I see?
    ” Go therefore and make disciples of ALL nations,…”Matthew 28:19
    I do not see aramaic blood as a requirement, I only see the Blood of the Lamb as a requirement. Poverty is a blessing in disguise. It is only then that you will eat of the Manna of heaven!!

    Good luck with those beliefs though.

    • LOL, Very perceptive Dru,

      I was just going to make a quick post regarding the change in name and Gravatar didn’t hide the fact, (by the professing of incorrect doctrine) that this was simply IBM attempting to be incognito.

      Hey, I will try to reply to you tonight on “the church stuck inside” thread.

      Hope that you’re having a good one.

      Shalom

      • Alienated,
        I think he just got a new toy to play with, and was not trying to be incognito. I remember the good old days when he was just a hewlett packard (HP)! Perhaps I should call myself “presario”. Has a nice ring to it, what do you think?

  88. You make me feel so good reading your compassionate posts. You are correct, snake is not always easy to find, or turttles.

    Do you think us pagans should stock up on MRE’s, and bug spray?

    • I heard snake tastes like chicken. Mice on the other hand, not worth the effort, unless they are the NYC variety. Then you can have feast.

      • I might have to upgrade to rat. Turttle taste like chicken. Snake is a little rubbery. Some snake, like cottonmouth, you have to be careful killing it, and cut the head off back far enough to get the poison sac too.

        This calls for wisdom: Let all non-Orthodox pagans like me carry a snake bite kit.

        Have a great evening, I have to go prepare a small fishing kit for Doomsday. Then, watch Doomday preppers.

  89. 4android4,

    Lol!! I had a hearty laugh at your knowledge of ‘the New Jerusalem’ & ‘Nibiru’ and how you combine them together …. and also because you are Aramaic so Jesus will have the marriage supper with you??🙂 Jesus may have spoken Aramaic but He is purely an Israelite and His spoken/written language was Hebrew, so first it is His own people & then the other saved ones (the gentiles).

    The Brown Star/Nibiru is the home of the ‘Anunanki’ (demon angels). Do you seriously believe that G-d would build His city ‘The New Jerusalem’ on a dead and destructive demon planet ?? Do some research please on (a)Nibiru & (b) on The City of G-d – The New Jerusalem… These are two different issues.🙂

    Here below is a little bit on Nibiru:
    ((NIBIRU means the planet of CROSSING.
    Etymologically, Nibiru is associated with the Hebrew word for wrath, ‘ebrah’ and the Hebrew word for crossing, ‘avar’. There are a lot of connections to the Nibiru theory when looking at the usage of this word ebrah/wrath in the Scriptures. It is associated with the Day of YHWH, the skies becoming darkened, great destruction the earth moving out of it’s place etc….
    Rev 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree being shaken by a great wind casts its unripe figs*. Also Isaiah 24:20- The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
    If Nibiru comes through our solar system it would bring a trail of meteors that would be cast to our earth as it passes us. Ancient depictions of this planet describe it as having a tail and appearing as red associating it with the dragon…))

    According to Hebraic teaching there is very interesting and astounding information as to how this dead ‘star’ is going to affect the heavenly bodies and cause immense disaster to our planet Earth as it passes by. This “possibly” could happen in Sep/Oct 2016 .. If you want more info let me know I can post it here. If you want to argue then forget it.

  90. Hi 4android4,

    “And they sang a new song: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.”
    (Rev.5:9)

    “I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mt.8:11)

    As someone mentioned earlier, the church is made up of Jew and Gentiles; Gentiles meaning “Nations”, that is, every other race, nation and tongue on the earth that is not Jewish. Your claim has no Scriptural support whatsoever.

  91. Ibm,
    I actually agree that america may be what is referred to as babylon. Also the last time I checked the amish were a sect of protestentism. Poverty is a relative word, Jesus said blessed are the poor. Not all of us here in the US are rich, but by the worlds standards we are rich. That is because America has been (Note the past tense) the last bastion of true liberty in the world, The freedom to practice whatever religion you want, including being separatists such as the amish. Even the Amish are now complaining that the government is interfering in their way of life, with their burdensome regulations. What we have been, and what we are becoming are two different matters.
    What you fail to understand is that being a Christian, is not to be equated with a religion. The orthodox Church is just another religion, as are the protestent churches. Being a Christian, means following Christ, wherever he may lead, It is NOT belonging to a certain church. Churches are merely institutions of Man, which have served a purpose up until now, but as institutions of man they are still part of that Babylon system. From our conversations, it seem like you have more faith in the orthodox church, than you do in the Blood of the Lamb. But the Temple which the Lord resides in is within every believer, and not some building or institution.

    In the Words of the old lutheran hymn…:
    verse 1
    My Hope is built on nothing less
    Than Jesus blood and righteousness,
    no merit of my own I claim,
    but wholly lean on Jesus name,
    On CHRIST the solid ROCK I stand,
    All other ground is sinking sand.

    verse 3
    His oath his covenent, his Blood
    sustain me in the raging flood
    when all supports are washed away
    he then is all my hope and stay,
    On Christ the Solid rock I stand
    all other ground is sinking sand.

    Now that is the faith that HAS moved mountains.

  92. To 4android4,

    Remember that the Day of the Lord will be against all those who are arrogant and prideful, which is what you are displaying here in your post. Salvation isn’t about race or lanugage, but about faith in his shed blood for all who believe, or don’t you remember what the Lord said to Abraham? “I will make you a father of many nations.” Everyone, no matter what their nationality, race or language, whoever has faith like Abrahams they are credited with righteousness:

    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    • Hey Don,

      Pray that you are well my brother.

      I think that you, (along with others) are beating a dead Orthodox ….. I mean Horse here.

      Have fun though.🙂

      Shalom

  93. So…..your salvation is totally works and not grace. Guess Christ didn’t
    quite cut the mustard on the cross. Just like we always thought, our
    salvation depends on our following the law, Good luck everyone, we’re
    gonna need it!

  94. well, you certainly have different views than others here. I am glad you love Jesus.

  95. Are You sure that this entity living with you now is the Jesus of the Bible?
    I mean You say he is making you a “proud one”, which is what satan does, And the Bible does say that “For many will come in my name saying ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead Many astray” (Matt24:5) And you say this Jesus you are in contact with is speaking “bad words”. It sounds to me as if the fruit that this Jesus is producing are not the the fruit of the Spirit, but rather rotten fruit. (But that is just me on the outside looking in)

  96. so is Dorothy and the wizard of oz!

    have fun here…..

  97. you are entitled to your beliefs….

  98. Ibm,
    Why don’t you take time to read the bible, and then you will see that this person is not who he claims to be, but is rather a wolf in sheeps clothing. I think any of us here will confirm this. It is not about a church, it is about being a christian, and you have been “smooth talked and happy feelinged” into believing a lie. and I will say no more.

  99. Hey IBM, 4android4, whatever,

    You are in Satan’s hip pocket and are part of an apostate church, but are too blind to understand.

    Give my regards to his little minion that is filling you and those of your church lies.
    Let him know that I will personally enjoy being there to watch him get thrown into hell fire.

    You may have just purchased a ticket for there yourself.

  100. android, These are evil men and teachings crept in unawares. There is no such thing as reincarnation except in the mind of the deceived. The living God is not cheap and He does not need to utilize humans and re-utiliize them like shoes. He made the planets and universe endless, cannot he make creation of people and animals so as well? He is wonderful and divine and He makes hundreds of millions of snow flakes individual, He surely make humans individual and Jacob had his own soul and spirit just as Jesus had his own soul and spirit. You are deceived. The scripture says many would come saying He is the Christ and they would say He is in the desert, he is here he is there, do not be deceived He does not come but as Jude and Enoch said He would come with ten thousands of His saints to convict all the ungodly of their ungodliness and ungodly deeds.

    1:14 About these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying,
    “Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones,
    1:15 to execute judgment on all,
    and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness
    which they have done in an ungodly way,
    and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

    1:16 These are murmurers and complainers, walking after their lusts
    (and their mouth speaks proud things), showing respect of persons to gain advantage.
    1:17 But you, beloved, remember the words
    which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1:18 They said to you that
    “In the last time there will be mockers, walking after their own ungodly lusts.”
    1:19 These are they who cause divisions, and are sensual, not having the Spirit.
    1:20 But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith,
    praying in the Holy Spirit.
    1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God,
    looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
    1:22 On some have compassion, making a distinction,
    1:23 and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear,
    hating even the clothing stained by the flesh.
    Doxology
    1:24 Now to him who is able to keep them from stumbling,
    and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory in great joy,
    1:25 to God our Savior, who alone is wise, be glory and majesty,
    dominion and power, both now and forever. Amen.

  101. Android

    I understand that you are from a different part of the world but to call women, the name you wrote above is wrong. Please repent and realyze it is a bad word and women deserve better language.

  102. sorry you cannot use bad words here. i had to edit what you said.

  103. ” But false prophets also arose among the people, Just as there will be false teachers among you, who will SECRETLY bring in destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2. and Many will follow their SENSUALITY, and because of them the way of Truth will be blasphemed. 3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words. THEIR CONDEMNATION FROM LONG AGO IS NOT IDLE, AND THEIR DESTRUCTION IS NOT ASLEEP.” 2 peter 2:1-3

    “The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and FALSE signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a STRONG DELUSION, so that they may believe what is false, In order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
    2 Thes. 2:9-12

    What we are seeing here folks are the false teachers secretly bringing in destructive heresies. Soon will come false signs and wonders, and then the strong delusion.

  104. if you were a good christian, you would not be watching that show.

    so you are not innocent.

    christians did not name that show, only those that worship lucifer would do that.

    you still cannot use bad words here on this site.

  105. it means born again in the spirit , not flesh.

    flesh has sin in it.

    flesh cannot merit heaven

  106. There is no brotherly love in the message this entity brings you. Right now he is feeding your emotions with feel good sensuality, Just as he tempted Eve, and Jesus. He is puffing you up, along with your church saying that they are superior. That your church is infallible. “Surely you will not die” was the aparrent “prophecy” he gave Eve, which led her to give the fruit to Adam. Soon he will tell you to persecute those who do not believe his message, and the killing starts. Look at how hitler came into Power. He came as a hero, he Identified the enemy, he isolated the enemy, and he proceeded to kill the enemy. This took over ten years to change the will of the people to Hate and murder. And he did this with superiour oratory skills, and seemed prophetic at times. Very few in our protestent churches in germany saw the evil, as he fed them feel good sensuality. I Spoke with a Man once who was a member of the Hitler youth, who said that the deception was like a cloud that blinded you. he thought he was serving God and country, but instead he was serving a man of lawlessness. So deep is this deception. Hitler was not even a religious leader, and the people saw him as their saviour. There were many churches here in the US that supported hitler as well in those early years.
    There was only a small number crying out in the wilderness of his deception. some of them gave their lives to point it out among the churches. Others gave their lives trying to protect the Jews by hiding them. These are the saints within that church that you should be looking at. Not the masses that fell for his deception. Are there any saints left in the Orthodox church that wish to speak out here????

  107. Hi folks, read Luke 21:10-29. This gives us a clear picture of what we are to look for – as we are fast approaching Christ’s appearance. He certainly lives now within each one of his believers, but he will join with us in full measure when he appears in the clouds. Also read – Matt. 17:5, Rev. 14:14, Lev. 16:2, Numbers 11:25 to name a few verses. Notice the consistent reference to “the cloud”. The Bible makes is crystal clear that God/Jesus will return in a cloud of glory. What this will actually represent on Earth – who knows? It may be an intense Solar Storm (which notably has a large cloud of particles!). We know by the many, many references that we are to look to the sky when we see all other signs laid out in Luke. Yes, we are to live our lives, but also be ready and watch as instructed by our Lord. I personally love 1 Thess. 4:13-17. It gives you the real “skinny”! Gotta love Paul – he never minced words!

  108. android, when I died to my old life and was born again in Christ Jesus, I assure you I had the same body before I died. I know what you mean and it is a very small view of a Living God who creates Universes and has no problem restoring His children to glorified bodies that are their own. You are deceived and more is the pity for the many simple that are lead astray by these foolish doctrines and fairytales. The abomination Islam has had hundreds of millions led astray as have they slaughtered who would not follow their pedophile murdering leader Muhammed and as has so many other religions that do not mind gathering in their adherants who willingly follow the arrogant and proud madness of men who like to control their fellow man. I can see your ground is hard and not fallow so there is no need to continue.

  109. Android
    Your religion esteems Mary the Mother of Jesus, and what you have here are three “Marys” telling you are headed in the wrong direction and are being deceived. I think this may be a sign to you!

  110. The sad and absurd thing android is that Ya’aqov or Jacob in latin had his name changed to Yisrael and the Beloved name Yeshua or Yoshua which is the name of Jesus that we use today had each their own name though many are called by these names but that does not make them the same people but you come with the sick words of some sick soul teaching you that these two people were one and the same. Now that is sad and small.

  111. WOW!! “Nibiru parks near Earth” I should have heard that from NASA and other scientists before, I wonder why I didn’t and I also wonder where the “Parking slot” is near Earth for this monster star Nibiru. Lol! I also wonder who we are communicating with here? 🙂

  112. Hi 4android4,
    Yes, you mentioned several times that you were orthodox Aramaic Christian and I can see how proud you are of your religion but having read your all your VERY STRANGE comments and also on looking at your username ‘4android4’ I wondered if you were the more advanced Ian Holm as Ash, the ship’s Science Officer who is revealed to be an android in the horror film “Alien” of 1979 or perhaps from Nibiru itself. Thanks for confirming Lol!!

  113. This is a waste of time. !!

  114. Hi Folks! Not sure what Nibiru is – but it doesn’t matter – wherever you are from Android – learn the Truth and be saved by it. The Word of God cannot be bound – so you can mock it, but you cannot hide from it.

    Jesus (and others) tell us in the Bible that Jesus will present himself to his elect in the clouds. Daniel says “he appears to those who look for him”. I won’t list all the Bible verses here that reference this phenomenon, as there are too many to count. The Bible, by the way, in its entiirety, was written for you and for me and for all the world’s people as God’s Living Word to us! There are no parts that are off limits or written to some and not to others. The Old Testament is just as alive as the New Testatment – in fact, it creates the foundation for the Good News of the New Testament as it speaks to the return of our Redeemer, Messiah, etc. (Jesus). The New Testament fulfills the Old Testament.

    We are told that no man knows the Day or Hour of Jesus’ appearance, but we are instructed to live and work patiently according to God’s Word every single day (and that’s really the most important point of all of this), being mindful of the tumultuous times we live in and to be “awake” and observant – so that when we do see the signs (which he will clearly show us), we should “look up for our redemption draweth nigh!”

    Will we be carried away? Physically – who knows?? Spiritually – absolutely!!

    From the world’s point of view, I’m sure this refers to something that will be an unprecedented cosmic phenomenon, something astro physical in nature that the world at large will be astounded and frightened by. The Elect, however, won’t be astounded or confounded. They will see and experience the complete fullfillment of God’s promise in all its glory. That will not be the end of the world, but just the new beginning for those who believe!

  115. 4android4,
    I’m sensing there’s something very strange with you by the way you respond for there is no Biblical basis to anything you write.
    1. You probably have a medical problem that needs to be taken care of.
    2. Your church has been feeding you with all the wrong teachings.
    3. Your mind is mystified… and perhaps there is more.
    Whatever the case, your one solution is only Yeshua from the tribe of Judah who suffered, shed His blood and died on the cross to save you if you would accept Him as your sole Savior. You have to ask Him to show you the Truth, and the Way while you still have His Life in you and you must REPENT …. otherwise you will be lost for eternity. Having Hebrew blood will not save you only Yeshua Messiah will. So think about it seriously and no more jokes for it is a sheer waste of time!!

  116. hi Mary Anne

    good explanation. =D>

  117. you are confused

  118. Hi Android and Marianne, Yes, Android, you clearly have thoughts and perspectives that are not consistent with God’s Word. Pray for God’s guidance and he will surely lead you to the Truth.

    God accepts Everyone who believes in Jesus! Period. Whether one calls themselves a Prostestant, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu or otherwise, these labels are quite meaningless and Totally Unimportant to God /Jesus if True Faith abides in the person. God said In fact, only call yourself a believer in Jesus – the rest will follow. Jesus himself said the path is to “Believe Only” in Him and you will attain God. Read John 12:44.

    Sounds simple enough, but Android, your posts remind us just how hard that really can be, especially in today’s world and how easily one can be distracted. The only thing that will help you to ‘believe only’ is pure and abiding faith in the one God, Jesus Christ. Leave your own thoughts BEHIND and God will infuse clear, unshakable, true God-driven thoughts and purpose.

    If one can learn anytihing from Jesus, his Primary Message was against formal religion – of any kind. Jesus came to free us from our own misguided concoctions about God and the useless rituals and practices which people develop out of their own fear. Why did Jesus have this message for us? Because formal religiion & its practices get in the way of TRUE LOVE and Communion with God – which Jesus, as God, demonstrated for us.

    People argue (and destroy others sometimes in the process) over religion all the time but to no purpose or gain – this is exactly the Highway to MISSING God’s Glory. If you have missed this important message of Jesus, you have really missed the main point. Keep an open mind and heart to Jesus – he’ll find you and take you to heightended levels of understanding.

    Give it a try! You have nothing to lose and everything to gain!

  119. Can You show me where in the bible it says “only those who are baptised into his church have the right to eternal life here on earth?”

    • android is wrong dru, because the direction to all who would be saved is to repent and be baptized but the thief on the cross was not baptized but Christ said on the cross when he confessed his sins and who this Christ was, that the thief would be this day in Paradise with him. It is an instance of the most incredible promise to all, even on a death bed, that they may repent of their sins and meet Christ and be saved just this side of the veil even without baptism. Christ is the Saviour, not the priest or the Church. He looks for Righteousness and Repentance which is what the thief confessed before the other. We deserve what is done but this man is innocent. There is no room for legalism in Christs response is there.

      The Catholic church did great evil over the ages in not allowing peace to families whose small children were not baptized before dieing, by a priest. They could not be buried in churchyard etc. and I am sure tons of masses have been paid for, for these tiny children who are and were with the Lord irregardless of this absurd and unscriptural doctrine.

  120. Android, I won’t go as far as to say you are “totally hopeless” – but you are pretty close. Jesus can bring ANYONE to eternal life – but the conditon is they MUST follow HIM – not some man-made doctrine. I believe many here in this forum seriously question your commitment to Jesus. This forum, thanks to Marianne and others, is dedicated to the spread of God’s True Word and you are clearly just a real newbie on this front. Folks are trying to be patient with you but it is wearing thin.

    Whether you realize it or not, you are demonstrating that you do not follow the one true God, that being Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is not found in a building or a man-made doctrine or in rituals – he is found in one’s heart and mind and soul.

    You will not be blessed by following a particular church or church’s brand of religion, no matter how much they may be brainwashing you to that effect.

    What about people who cannot get to a church for one reason or another? Are they doomed? I think not! A person may be living in a tree or in a truck, miles and miles from any other living soul on earth – and yet be fully in Christ if they truly believe! Get with it! God’s Word is NOT BOUND!!

    Mankind, however, will in fact, destroy himself and bring on God’s wrath when he turns away from God’s Truth and embraces false doctrines.

    But – and here’s the catch: ONLY GOD can judge who is in danger of losing his or her eternal salvation – not you or me or anyone else.

  121. Marei Jean

    I agree with you. I kept waiting for Dru to bring forth Jesus words on the cross.

    The word also says the servant is not more than the master. To me if he said it, it is settles. Let every man be a liar but let the word of God be true, right. The Word is living and it can not be wrong. I think the LORD is always merciful.

    I also am reminded of the words of King David in the Old Testament. After they were in a battle and their hands were full of blood. David said something to the effect that they should go and pray and fall on the LORD ,
    as he merciful, unlike man who is without mercy. Praise God!

    Without him where would any be, all have fallen short of the glory of God.

    • I agree with you also Tish and that wholeheartedly. Where but for the Grace of God go I. But for the Lord’s wondrous Grace where would anyone be.

      This is why He said, “God so loved the world that He sent His only Begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall be saved.”

    • Tish, marie jean
      The question I asked android was a rhetorical question, knowing he could not answer it. Marie Jean did a wonderful Job of answering the question, bringing up the same point I was going to mention so I saw no need to waste my limited time. I have been commenting with android/ibm/hp for some time now, so I can almost predict his responses to those rhetorical questions. I knew he would bring up his “secret books”, and his churches “hidden teachings”, and he has added a new “wrinkle”, saying that Jesus was delusional when he hung on the cross. Quite frankly, this is blasphemy, in saying that Jesus erred, Which I am sure that this “secret entity” told him to say. Credibility=zero.
      God bless.

  122. Dru

    We are on the same page. I was waiting for him to tell you that they pray to the dead, the use iconography which is a form of idol worship (as they have under claim bones of some dead prophets), they also do yoga chanting and
    and chakras realingnment. These are a few. So it may give you an understanding as to why he made the comment about Jesus.

    He admited later about knowing better, but then after was when he spoke of Jesus being out ot it. It goes to show they really do not know who Jesus is!

    Yes Marie Jean did an excellent job with points she was on top of her game.
    She surely studies and knows the word.

  123. Tish, Marie Jean,
    Do you see how he is now calling Jesus a sinner. Another blasphemy. Another “wrinkle”. He knows he has been caught, but cannot redeem his credibility. Did you know that Satan quoted scripture when tempting Jesus as well? All the iconography, yoga, and praying to the dead are the things that open the door for satan and his minions to enter and pervert the Gospel. His only means of redemption is repentence, but somehow I do not think it is in him to do so, because his faith is in his church, and not in the real Jesus, who is God incarnate, Not Adam reincarnate.

  124. Android – yes, Jesus had, no doubt, a terrific headache, was very sick and weak beyond measure on the cross. No one is arguing that point.
    Jesus, as a human, suffered more than any of us will ever know. He went through this human suffering willingly for you and me (and, by the way, for the thief on the cross also!).

    However, Jesus, AS GOD, overcame his physical and mental anguish so that we may see the glory of God. His message to the thief DEMONSTRATES God’s unflinching forgiveness when one totally believes upon Him. When Jesus said to the thief – “This day you shall be with me in Paradise” this was said in a totally Sound Mind and Pure Truth – because it was said with God’s Mind and God’s Words. He spoke to the thief, with AUTHORITY, as God and Father.

    If you have studied / followed Jesus (which is clear you have not) you will know that he was anything but ‘polite’ (polite is a man-made word). He was totally Loving – but he also called ‘a spade a spade’ and given this – I’m sure he would tell you succinctly that you, by continuining to blaspheme, are not as worthy to enter the Kingdom as the thief was!

    The thief was worthy, because the thief, through self examination, a repentant heart and demonstrated humility, BELIEVED upon Jesus as God and Savior.

    I agree with Dru and others here, you have mistakenly placed your belief in a false God (your church). A church will not save you – only Jesus will! The simple thief, who hung in shame on a cross & demonstrated simple and pure belief, knew this Truth. Do yourself a favor and take a cue from him….

  125. I still have sins, does that mean I cannot be raptured? I have been trying to overcome sins and aware of them. I have been getting rid of worldly pursuits and only desire to live for God. Am I even saved? Do I need to believe I am saved to be saved?

    • rapture ready,

      “We heard the true teaching from God. Now we tell it to you: God is light, and in him there is no darkness.

      So if we say that we share in life with God, but we continue living in darkness, we are liars, who don’t follow the truth. We should live in the light, where God is. If we live in the light, we have fellowship with each other, and the blood sacrifice of Jesus, God’s Son, washes away every sin and makes us clean.

      If we say that we have no sin, we are fooling ourselves, and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God will forgive us. We can trust God to do this. He always does what is right. He will make us clean from all the wrong things we have done. If we say that we have not sinned, we are saying that God is a liar and that we don’t accept his true teaching” (1st John 1, ERV).

      Please continue to read the book of 1st John.

      http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+John+1&version=ERV

      Blessings
      Psalm 23

    • rapture ready

      God looks at the heart, not the perfection in your performance.

      I cannot see him abandoning you if you are doing your best.

      it is possible to be so clueless about what salvation really means, that one can either be saved or not saved, and not know it.

      it sounds like you are saved, but are dealing with some weaknesses.

      so keeping working on your faults, stay in prayer, keep asking the Lord for help, and do not give up.

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