Are You Empty Enough?
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People may know the Word of God, but they don’t know the God of the Word.
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We are full of words to speak, but are we full of God?
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The above caption says “I can still feel you”
This is because only when we are empty of everything we know, can we only begin to feel God.
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We are so busy serving God, that we don’t have time to know Him.
How empty are we, of our concerns, schedules, interests, and other people, that we have room in our day to spend alone with God?
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How badly do we want to know God?
Or is He just convenient to us when we have a prayer need?
Or is He just “someone out there” to pray to?
Do we just shoot off a one minute prayer to him at the end of the day?
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Do we know Him well enough to predict His response in a situation?
Do we really know what is on His heart today?
Do we really see Him in other people?
Do we weep when we have hurt Him?
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We MUST spend time ALONE with Him, or everything is just vanity.
We must empty ourselves of all our daily garbage, and sit and listen and wait ……
He has something to tell us…Something personal and intimate.
Something we need to survive,
and something we need to belong to Him.
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It is this emptiness, and aloneness, where we find what we really need to complete ourselves.
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We find our Creator in our solitude.
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These are some videos which share this message.
Acknowledgements to Dru on my website for providing them.
They are short, but have a big message.
Very inspiring to me.
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Please take a few minutes to view the videos.
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Thank you
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btNHMOsBRP0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKLlcwd_nqE
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Heaven Awaits 
and jesus said unto them; your prayers are not answered because you ask amiss.
Hi Johnwalts777,
Just an FYI, Jesus did not say the Scripture that you quoted above. The Scripture is written in the book of James:
“What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel. You do not have because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it on your pleasures.” (James 4:1-3)
Though I am sure that Jesus is in agreement with what James said, it was not spoken by Jesus himself during his time of teaching on earth.
Just keepin’ it straight.
Yours in Christ
forgive me, i made an error, it was the holy spirit that gave these words for janmes to say. but then the holy spirit is the same as jesus.
Hi Johnwalts,
No problem, I was just clarifying.
Yes the “Bride” is the one who “empties herself” to know her husband “intimately”. As Jesus Christ “emptied” Himself for to “intimately” know her and cherish her.
Eph. 2: 21 ¶ Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
EPH5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
EPH 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
EPH 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
EPH 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
EPH 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the “washing of water by the word, ”
EPH 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
EPH 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
EPH 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
EPH 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
EPH 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
If a man would find the Key of Knowledge, let him find himself. Thy sins are not thyself;They are not any part of thyself; they are diseases which thou has come to love. Cease to cling to them, and they will no longer cling to thee. Let them fall away, and thy self shall stand revealed. Thou shalt then know thyself as a Comprehensive Vision, Invincible Principle, Immortal Life, and Eternal good.
So extremely simple is Original Simplicity, that a man must let go his hold of everything before he can perceive it. The great arch is strong by virtue of the hollowness underneath, and a wise man becomes strong and invincible by “emptying himself.”
Beacon
“In Jeremiah 2:13 it is written, “For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.”
How often have we sought for “water” from sources other than God?
How often have we “hewed out our own cisterns,” only to find them to be broken, leaking, and ultimately unsatisfying?
How often do we find ourselves thirsting for that which will truly nourish our hearts?
It was during the last day of Sukkot that Yeshua cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water'” (John 7:2, 37-38).
Yeshua spoke of the “living water” that He would give to those who ask Him.
This “water,” He said, would truly satisfy the thirsty heart and provide everlasting nourishment for life (John 4:14).
He further explained that this water would spring forth within the heart as a result of trusting in Him (John 7:38).
The Apostle John calls this living water the Holy Spirit (John 7:39).
And today Yeshua says, ‘To all who are thirsty I will give the springs of the water of life freely’ (see Rev. 21:6 and Isa. 55:1).”
The above written by John Parsons, Hebrew for Christians.
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holidays/Fall_Holidays/Sukkot/sukkot.html
Blessings
Psalm 25
amen
“Now there were set there six waterpots of stone [cisterns] according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece.
Jesus said to them, ‘Fill the waterpots with water.’
And they filled them up to the brim [cisterns capable of holding the Water]. And He said to them, ‘Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast’ [Father God].
And they took it. When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom [Jesus Christ].
And He said to him, ‘Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!'” (John 2:6-10, NKJV).
The above is a living parable that Jesus performed as a miracle, which addresses a portion of this page topic.
Blessings
Psalm 25
here is a story I just received which discusses, not if we are empty, but if we are filled with the wrong thing:
The town of Chelm was abuzz! The king was coming to visit! Everyone got to work sprucing up their homes and the entire village. The wise men wanted to provide the very best for their king and asked that each household pour one cup of wine into the communal barrel so they could serve the entire royal entourage.
Yankel the tailor was reluctant to part with his precious wine and figured that no one would taste the difference if he poured a cup of water into the barrel instead.
The day arrived and everything went according to plan! The king was very impressed with the town and how they welcomed him. Finally, it was time to serve the wine. The mayor scooped out a cup for their beloved king and presented it to him.
The king drank, made a strange face, looked into the cup, and poured it on the ground. Everyone was aghast! Instead of a beautiful dark purple color, the wine was clear-just like water! It seemed that everyone in the town had the same idea as Yankel and they ended up with a barrel full of water.
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when our king comes, will he find out we filled his barrel with water or wine?
One thing for sure is that “Each believer has to dig their own well” then maintain it. So their water stays sweet and pure.
Jesus Christ had to “empty out Himself” for God to fill Him with the power to do His will. Jesus had every temptation that we have had yet without sin.
The Holy Spirit is the “Infilling of the believer” after they empty themselves.
The Living water is for those that “obey Him”.
amen to that !
Beautifully said, Beacon.
and how can I empty myself?
Gaudence,
You need to put to death the fleshly striving to be accepted. It is only then that the Holy Spirit can lead you in sanctification. Submitting to the righteousness that comes by faith in Christ. EVERYTHING before that point of surrender is self-righteousness, Everything after is the Righteousness of “God with us”.
Be prepared for discipline as a father disciplines a son. You will be walking on the narrow road between self righteousness and lawlessness, and you will be attacked and persecuted by both of these groups. The end result though is worth it, to be held in the arms of Jesus. It is then, that you “Know” his love for you…intimately.
Thanks for this. I wondered this question “how to empty myself” too. And I heard this in my head after reading your words “keep on being filled with the Spirit”. 🙂 like the wine story too
and when they seen the lord comming, the five fullish virgins asked the five wise virgins to give them some of their oil so they could come out and meet the master. but the five wise virgins said; no, least we have not enough for our own selves. ( the day commeth that when a rightious person see’s the sign’s of the master;s return many shall ask of them; help us know your lord for we see what is happening but cannot receive that what thou hast for it has been taken away) food for thought.
notice they were all virgins…so they were pure…..but half were still not ready….something for all of us to think about
yes, they have not kepk themselves ready, they have become complacent.
And they did not possess the Holy Spirit. As they were seeking it when He came. And they lost out. The oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit
Lets Remember
Matt.12: 43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Meaning they are eating the false doctrines of the great falling away by their Hireling prophets.
This man represents millions of professing Christians today. That do not get filled with the Spirit. And have no power to resist Satan’s attack without it.
Also they have no where to go for comfort, or rest, and peace. And that is also why today as many come in the front door, just as many going out the back door because they are not taught the truth about the Holy Spirit “infilling”. They get discouraged and then end up becoming bad examples of true Christianity.
This is the “Great Deception” that is right before our eyes today. The Word has to be rightly divided to understand the process of the Plan of Salvation.
Producing the wheat plant is a progression.
Beacon
beacon; jesus spoke many parables that were for generations to come, you know that. he did not state to those whom he spoke to that what he was saying to them was also repeat also ment for future generations. a simple example; jesus said; there are some here that shall not see death before the son of man returns, you aleady know what the deciples thought of that. but what they thought was incorrect. it did not mean they or some of them would live thousands of years in this fleshly body.
True. All born again believers lhave the Holy Spirit. But many of us don’t walk closely enough to know how to use His power against the evil one. I’m a young believer and only recently learning the importance of putting on the full armour of God every day. Even more than once a day! The attacks against us are so heavy in these last days
Hi Beacon,
Just FYI, regarding the Scripture that you quoted above, as with all Scripture, we must stay in the context in which it was given. The Scripture regarding the unclean spirit was a parable against the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and that generation, when they said in verse 38:
““Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
Then regarding their spiritual state before Jesus’ arrival and after his miracles, Jesus says:
““When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
In other words, the state of those rulers because of their unbelief, put them in a worse spiritual state than they were before they saw all the miracles that Jesus had performed, ergo, ” the final condition of that person is worse than the first.” This is apparent when he refers to “the men of Nineveh” and “The queen of the south.” For they believed because of the preaching of Jonah and the queen of the south believed recognizing the wisdom that God had given Solomon. Notice also at the end of that verse it says:
“That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
Again, the wicked generation that Jesus was speaking of was the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and any of that generation who needed to see more signs beyond what Jesus had already performed in order to believe. The key to that parable is the “Condition” of that generation before Jesus performed the miraculous signs and their condition after they had seen them, which was worse than the first.
Therefore, to apply that parable to believers of today, would be in error and that because we did not see those miracles that he performed and we are not that generation that he was speaking of, saying, “show me a sign and I’ll believe!”
This is a good example of taking a verse of Scripture out of context.
Marianne,
I was looking through some of your old posts and I couldn’t believe what I came across:
“Emmanuel” Hasn’t come yet.
Were you serious about this post or have you changed your position on this since then? You know that the name “Immanuel” is a descriptive designation, a title, right, just like the Bread of Life, the Lamb of God, the Eternal Life, the Rock, the Sheep Gate, etc., etc…. The name Immanuel is a descriptive name for Christ which means “God with us.” No one else has come here that could fit the criteria of “God with us” except for Jesus. Furthermore, you would be hard-pressed to explain Matthew’s confirmation that Jesus is the Immanuel prophesied of in Isa.7:14 as found in Matt. 1:20-23 which says:
The angel said to Joseph:
“She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
In the Scripture above, the angel Gabriel, without a doubt, identifies Jesus as Immanuel in fulfillment of Isa. 7:14. To believe otherwise would be to not believe in the word of God.
dmcal
yes, but that was not the point.
yes he came, but he was not called Emmanuel at the time, he was called Jesus instead.
when he returns, he will be called emmanuel, because then he will be recognized for who he is.
interesting that he was not named emmanuel by the angel when he appeared to mary….
HI Marianne,
What you said is not true. Please read the following Scripture:
“All this took place [to fulfill] what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Notice the words ” to fulfill” in the verse above, which means that at the time of Jesus’ birth that entire prophecy regarding the virgin giving birth and who Jesus was “God with us” had been fulfilled.
As an example, was it not Thomas who said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God?” Thomas recognized Jesus as God in the flesh, that is, he recognized Jesus as Immanuel “God with us.”
The angel said, you are to give him the name Jesus and Immanuel is who he is, “God with us.” Those who referred to Jesus as God, Peter and Thomas to name a few, were in essence acknowledging him as Immanuel.
you are not getting the point.
I am not disputing the God is with us aspect of jesus.
I am just saying he was not NAMED immanuel when he was born….
the first quote is quoting the OT
if you look at Matt 1:25, “he [Joseph] called his name JESUS.”
so, no matter what the prophecy said, he was named Jesus, not Immanuel.
Thomas was the only apostle who directly called him God. Why didn’t the others do that?
when the angel appeared to mary in Luke, he did NOT inform her he would be called Immanuel, but called the Son of God. Luke 1:35.
the question is, after centuries of waiting for someone called Immanuel to show up, why did the messiah get called by another name?
all through the new testament, when we see the messiah quoted, he is always called Jesus, not Immanuel….
Jesus is the name above all other names
and we pray in the name of Jesus, not in the name of Immanuel.
the book of revelation ( written after Jesus left) is called the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
not
the Revelation of Immanuel.
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So I am just pointing that out…
I am not denying WHO Jesus is, I am just pointing out that he was not called Immanuel during his earthly life.
Marianne,
It was never intended that Jesus would be named Immanuel, ever! Immanuel was meant as a title like, King of kings and Lord of lords. You should be able to come to this conclusion when you see Gabriel telling Joseph in Matt.1:21 when he said “You are to give him the name Jesus” and then in verse 23 Gabriel says, “They will call him Immanuel.” Therefore, Jesus’ is his correct earthly name and Immanuel is the essence of who he is. So he is Jesus who is Immanuel “God with us.”
To use a crude example, Barack is his name and he will be called the president. His name is not president, but that is what he is. His actual name is Barack. Do you understand now? It was never intended that Jesus was to be named Immanuel for Immanuel is what he is, but his name is Jesus. By calling him God, they are recognizing him as God in the flesh, Immanuel, which means God with us.
so we agree…..
verse 23 is a prophecy being quoted…it is not something Gabriel said…..
verse 23 is from Isaiah 7:14
how did my picture on this site change?
I don’t know. Usually, it changes if you change your email address.
But you have the same one, so maybe go back and reinstate your gravatar, however you did it the first time.
it is magic i guess, or maybe god was listening…. 🙂
well, god must have done something because my picture came back, all on it’s own? figure that one out???
dmcal 52 reply From Beacon
You wrote the paragraph below.
“Again, the wicked generation that Jesus was speaking of was the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and any of that generation who needed to see more signs beyond what Jesus had already performed in order to believe. The key to that parable is the “Condition” of that generation before Jesus performed the miraculous signs and their condition after they had seen them, which was worse than the first.”
I say to you:
All I need is but one Scripture to prove and nullify your thinking dear brother. You are a dispensational believer at your core. Knowing Jesus is the same in every generation. read scripture below
Heb. 13: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
3 Steps to Salvation – Three is perfection. 3 witnesses of true salvation
1st. step = “Saved by Grace” – Jesus chose His disciples and told them they had their “names in the book” before the foundation of the World ever begin.
Jesus said — Luke 10: 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the “”spirits are subject unto you””; but rather rejoice, because your “names” are written in heaven.
2nd. Step =”Sanctification” is by the word
St. John 15: 3 Now ye are “clean” through the word which I have spoken unto you. — Clean or Sanctified is the meaning 2nd. Step in complete salvation
3rd Step = Receiving the “Holy Spirit”
Acts 2:38. Then Peter said unto them, “Repent”, and be “baptized” every one of you in the “name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins”, and “”ye shall” receive the “gift of the Holy Ghost””.
Notice Judas was not their on day of Pentecost. His name was blotted out. But Mary was there and had to receive the Holy Spirit the same as the disciples did. She had to receive the Holy Ghost the same as anyone else.
ACTS 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
ACTS 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
1st. – You see dear brother – Gods Grace is for everyone that can recognize they need it. Faith believes in Gods Grace in any generation.
2nd. – Sanctification – Grace moves on to “separation” from the world. Faith believes you have to be sanctified = set apart – from your habits of sin.
3rd. – Receiving the Holy Spirit – The two above bring you to the “Power of God” that opens your mind to understand the Mysteries of the Word = Its your Guide. Why because Jesus Christ is NOW living IN YOU. Not just hanging out with Him. Walking with HIM. Talking with Him etc. But you have a “Intimate” marriage. Christ in you and you in Christ makes you the Bride of Jesus Christ. Bone of his Bone, flesh of his flesh.
Bro. dmcal 52 – You just cannot separate Jesus day from our day. Its been the same way even through the O.T . Moses was rejected as a whole. They would have killed him if God had not stepped in. Even though Israel seen the signs. It meant nothing to that forward generation. Except a handful.
All mankind seek signs – Look at us on this forum. Always looking for signs. And yet the sign has already been given. Jesus said about Elijah = John – he has already come and ye missed it. He was their sign. Same today.
Having a real New Birth is a sign to the world around us that we are different. And the world hate’s us more and more each day. Darkness is all through the world. Christians are being persecuted everywhere on the planet. And we still looking for signs. WHY- its just a repeat of the end of the age to mankind. I have seen the Miracles with my own eyes in my time. Have you not dear brother of mine.
Matthew 13 explains this in every detail. How satan follows Jesus as He is sowing seed. Remember 3 out of 4 were overtaken by satan’s seed. How can anyone say that’s just for the generation in Jesus day and really believe that.
Hope you can see it my friend. Its good to talk to you again.
Beacon
Beacon,
Though you wrote a bunch of information, you did not address what I told you. True much of what Jesus said to his disciples is for all believers through every generation, but in this case, Jesus was speaking specifically to the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and the unbelievers of that generation. The gist of what he was saying to them is that, their last state was worse than the first and that because even after seeing all of the miraculous signs that he performed, they still didn’t believe and they only wanted to see more signs. Although it is true that unbelief will keep a person from eternal life, It was to that generation of those mentioned, that Jesus was directing his response to and not us. As proof of this, are the men of Nineveh going to stand up with us in judgment because we didn’t believe in those miracles that Jesus performed? Though we as believers believe that he did perform those miracles, at the same time, we were not there to physically see them. Yes, Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever, but in this case Jesus’ response was directed solely to those of whom he was speaking to of that generation.
spot on beacon. note; somehow my regular picture has been replaced with this blue whatever. i am not sure how to change it back but will try.
wait a second. now my original photo is back? hum??
Bro. John – there are some here that shall not see death
I have not forgot you. But I have been real busy the last couple of days. And will get back to you. God bless you – beacon
Bro. dmcal – You said – Therefore, to apply that parable to believers of today, would be in error-
I believe that is not a parable but an absolute truth of the Christian church in our day. And just about every day and its message.
Just read Rev. chapter’s 2 and 3 and you will see it all in their. From the 1st Century to the Now . The True vine sees it. But the False vine do not.
Beacon
Beacon,
Beacon,
You are free of course to believe whatever you want. By the way, Rev.2 & 3 are letters to the original seven churches of that time and also represent the entire church period. The letters to the churches have nothing to do with the parable that Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and the generation of that time. As I said, “the last state of the man is worse than the first” represents the state of those Pharisees, the teachers of the law and that generation who saw the miracles yet still needed to see more miracles in order to believe.
That is why Jesus said, the men of Nineveh and the queen of the south will rise up at judgment with “this generation” and condemn it. Why? Because, the men of Nineveh repented in sackcloth and ashes at the preaching of Jonah and didn’t require miracles to be performed in order to believe. The queen of the south believed because of Solomon’s wisdom and again, that without miracles. But the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and that generation didn’t believe even after being with the Son of God and all the miracles that he performed and so they will be held accountable because of all the proof they were given yet they still did not believe. The parable about the unclean spirit is directed at them and should be applied in the context in which it was given.
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“Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.
“When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
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The parable regarding the unclean spirit that Jesus spoke of was prompted because of the previous information in the context. They belong together and we should keep them together!
Question:
Who is Jesus addressing?
Answer:
a. That “wicked and adulterous generation that asks for a sign!”
b. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with [this generation].
c. The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with [this generation].
d. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this [wicked generation].
You can see that the parable of the unclean spirit was indeed spoken against that wicked generation who wanted to see a sign and that because of what the last part of the verse says, which is:
“That is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
The bottom line is that Jesus was speaking specifically to those of that generation who were unbelieving even after all the miracles that they had seen him perform and therefore, the parable cannot be applied to the church or any believer, for it was spoken against that generation who was requesting the sign.
To apply this parable and to teach that it is referring to all generations of believers would be in error.
To John or all- Mark 9:1
“1. That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, and earth. Deut. 32:15-22
Mark 9:1 shall not taste of death.
“This generation shall not pass, Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. 16:28, compare John 21:.22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others.” (vol 2., p. 320).;
“Then this coming of God’s dominion cannot refer to our Lord’s resurrection, nor to the gift of the Holy Spirit which were to be realized within the year…. Nor can it refer to our Lord’s coming in judgment which is yet even now in abeyance.. Nor can the powerful spread of the gospel be meant, for this already came about within comparatively few years.. We shall have to think of the destruction of Jerusalem.. In it God revealed his kingly dominion in his judgment, a precursor of his judgment of the last day.
“Verse 28 adds, with His solemn ‘verily,’ a confirmation of this announcement of His coming to judge. The question of what event is referred to may best be answered by noting that it must be one sufficiently far off from the moment of speaking to allow of the death of the greater number of His hearers, and sufficiently near to allow of the survival of some; that it must also “be an event,” after which these survivors would go the common road into the grave; that it is apparently distinguished from “His coming ‘in the glory of the Father,’ and yet is of such a nature as to afford convincing proof of the establishment of “His kingdom on earth”, and to be, in some sort, a sign of that final act of judgment.” All these requirements (and they are all the fair inferences from the words) meet only in the destruction of Jerusalem, and of the national life of the chosen people. That was a crash of which we faintly realise the tremendous significance. It swept away the last remnant of the hope that Israel was to be the kingdom of the Messiah; and from out of the dust and chaos of that fall the Christian Church emerged, manifestly destined for world-wide extension. It was a ‘great and terrible day of the Lord,’ and, as such, was a precursor and a prophecy of the day of the Lord, when He ‘shall come in the glory of the Father,’ and ‘render unto every man according to his deeds.'” (Exposition of Holy Scriptures, Matt 16:28)
Matthew 24 also very plainly says that Jesus meant what he said when speaking to the disciples of some standing here would not taste of death. Till they saw the “End of the World” which was the age ending for Israel. And the “Kingdom of God” was established on earth by the Jew & Gentile church.
In Matt. 24: 1-3 started about the “Temple being destroyed” and then the disciples ask him about the “end of the world” as well. Jesus plainly said to them “YE” and “YOU” or some would see it. Maybe not all of them. Some were martyred before.
Beacon
I see matthew 24 referring to the generation that would see the fall of the temple in jerusalem, but also to a future generation that saw what happened after the birth pains started. some of the events described did not happen in the generation of jesus. for example, the sun and moon did not turn dark and the stars did not fall out of the sky when the temple was destroyed.
that is correct marianne. the temple has to be rebuilt . this is consistant with the antichrist setting where he ought not./ and my picture is screwed up again? wait; when i go to post my picture returns???
now I see you, now I don’t !!
peek a boo!
🙂
maybe god is trying to tell me something?
🙂
Well – Marianne – at least we believe the same in some area’s. As the post says and I have always maintained that Heb. 13:8 gives us the power to see and read yesterdays unbelief, and today’s unbelief. Then we know what the future holds for our own day.
As far as the Stars from heaven falling. That was Abraham’s seed falling “into complete darkness” by rejecting their Messiah. Did not it get Dark while Jesus was dying on the Cross. It even convinced a Roman soldier to say this man was the Son of God – Yet the Pharisee’s were ridiculing Him and telling Him to come down from the Cross then we will believe you. They could not even have mercy upon a man while dying on a cross. They were the fallen stars. Bound in chains of darkness and could not get out of their mindset. They were living in hell on earth and did not know it. Christ came to open their Seals of bondage but they would not have it. They died in their own 4th. Seal.
The Sun is Mal. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the “Sun of righteousness will arise” with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
On the Cross Jesus was still the “Sun of righteousness”. He had to “arise” because He had fallen into Mankind’s hopelessness of darkness. Now guess what the “rapture is now” the “rising of the Sun of God in you”. By the Holy Spirit.
We could speak much on the Temple being destroyed. But for now I will just say it was the “end of the World” for Israel and the O.T school master the same as Rev. 10:6 says “their time” had run out. They had 2,058 years to get it together and their end was worse than all. Yet the Bride left Jerusalem as Jesus told them to do. And they were saved. And I could say ‘raptured” out by the guiding of the “holy spirit” that caught the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus the Word told them when you see the Armies coming get out and be safe.
“Christ fulfilled the school master” at the rising of the “Sun” on Resurrection day. That was the Great but “Terrible day” for Israel. 1 million and 100 thousand Jews died in that battle. Just in Jerusalem and Temple mount. The blood ran up to the horses bridle’s. The Romans had to invent shoes with spikes into the souls of their shoes to even walk because of all the blood around the Temple mount and on the ground and in the Temple. The Moon is just a reflector of the Sun. It makes perfect sense to me that if the Sun was darkened while He was on the cross. Then the “moon” would not get her light either. Because without the Sun the moon will not shine. That happened as the Bible said it happened. Like for 3 hours or more while Jesus was on the Cross.
Israel’s world had fallen into pieces and annihilated. A star at a time, by darkness over the whole nation. Compare their’s with America today. The signs have already been out for years and years. Our real Prophets have come and gone. We are so educated today. That Revelation of the word is nullified by it.
Beacon
Bro. John – why do you believe that a stone Temple has to be rebuilt. Rev. 11 show’s the New Temple was rebuilt.
beacon
beacon; the temple that i am refuring to in revelations is not built to it’s original size. if you talk to any jewish scolar they will tell you that the plans and stones are already crafted but cannot be placed at present because the dome of the rock is within the original place of the temple. as you know this is the most holy place for muslims. and they are not going to just allow the jewish nation come in and build in that area. so; something or someone will take place to allow the original temple to be compleated in the same exact shape and form as in the past. i find it hard to understand how you have missed this? also the stars falling from heaven is the following; a great meateor will strike the earth and cause trillions of tons of earth and rock to be cast into the low earth orbit area where it will then start falling back under the forces of gravity and will look exactly like “all the dtars of heaven falling to the earth”. actually in revelations it specifically speaks of two 2 asteroids hitting the earth. how did you miss this? ( it talks of the one being called wormwood and the other as a great burning mountain falling from the sky. again; how did you miss these scriptures in revelations???
Bro. Dmcal – you said -By the way, Rev.2 & 3 are letters to the original seven churches of that time and also represent the entire church period. The letters to the churches have nothing to do with the parable that Jesus spoke against the Pharisees, the teachers of the law and the generation of that time. As I said, “the last state of the man is worse than the first” represents the state of those Pharisees, the teachers of the law and that generation who saw the miracles yet still needed to see more miracles in order to believe.
Dear Brother. To read and understand the 7 ages you have to understand Satan’s bride is among them. As in all generations and church’s.
What are the Nicolatian, what is Balaam doctrine, What it the Jezebel. What’s it mean that :Satan got a Seat of authority in the Pergomas age”. The first four church ages show the dark ages took over the church. The false vine never gets its “Seals” opened up. And death, hell, and the grave is all that is left for them. The 4th. Seal.
Sardis means escaped one. And that is talking about Luthers day. Coming out of the Jezebels denominated system as a Protester. Most for some reason do not grasp that the N.T took the same flight that Israel did. Where they not Captive in 4 different Nations before Christ come. They got indoctrinated into paganism and education of those Nations. And instead of Prophets teaching them as before. They come out with Rabbi’s, Scribes, Scholars, intelligence head honchos to say to rule them and sway them to error. Anytime Natural brute beast are in power. You are bound for hell. Just like America now.
Its the same to day with the N.T church. Heb. 13:8 fulfilled the same as in Jesus 1st. and 2nd coming. The 3 mentioned above – Balaam doctrine, Nicolatian, turned into Jezebel-ism. And its still with us in the N.T. Rev. 17- and 18 tell us show.
That is exactly the same thing the 1st century had to deal with. The whole book of Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem and Christ coming to resurrect the N.T Jew and Gentile church. And it carries right over into our day as well. In every age Christ always comes first in Grace then later in Judgment. Look at history and see if you can find those points of change.
The false vine is always going to persecute the true vine. They cannot help it. If you had lived in every 7 church age. You would have to resist the Pharisee’s as well. They just called something else. They love cold formal worship. They love the councils like the Sanhedrin. And they blaspheme every truth or twist it out of its original meaning.
Pharisee means actor. Among other things. Imitators of the truth.
I agree with you. But I cannot understand your reasoning of why you do not see this in the church world today. We still got Pharisee’s and Scribes and Councils and systems that will not ever learn the truth.
They are sons of perdition. Perdition = destroyed , annihilated, perished. In the 4th. Seal. of Death , hell and the grave.
A man is way better off to have never known Christ as to fake his salvation to the point it slays others away from Christ. A millstone will be hung around his neck and thrown into the bottom of the sea.
Understanding your day and its Message should mean everything to you. Heart, Soul, and Body, and Mind. Jesus said EAT of me — That’s the Word and also the present Wedding feast. That makes us Bride material. Into an intimacy of relationship and we know what our husband letters mean and understand them. We know him intimately. We know His mind – We know His character, virtue, strength , His heart, Soul, He has shared with us. The foolish virgins got started but never did understand the Message for their hour. All the way back into the O.T to Now.
beacon.
beacon; i think i understand your interpitations of the scriptures, yes jesus spoke to the scribes and pharisees, it was for them and it is also for those in every generation even till now. we simply do not use the words scribes and pharisees any more, but in our present time the same kind exist. how many people go around saying, god please give me a sign that you exist, or show me that god exists some will say. etc. etc. and even to this day our lord uses us whom by grace are saved, to make attempts to explain to these kinds of lost souls that god is not going to physically appear unto them, but as you and every other christian know, god shows himself to be there in actions that happen in peoples lives that they cannot understand, and a lot of time they call it “lucky” there is no such thing as being lucky.
Beacon,
I remember you now from previous posts. You are the one who runs after myths and symbolizes and spiritualizes everything so that there is no literal fulfillment of anything in God’s word. And though you will disagree, it will be made apparent to you and those like you that your interpretation of Scripture is fantasy and nothing more. With you and those who spiritualize Scripture, no one can contend for the truth and accuracy of Scripture with you and that because you make the word of God mean whatever you want. Your post is nothing but a bunch of ramblings in order to piece your beliefs together, instead of using sound interpretation and allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture. I am going to list these in separate posts so that others will read it and not just ignore it because of its length. Here are some of things that you posted:
You said:
“Dear Brother. To read and understand the 7 ages”
Rebut:
There is only one age and we are still living in it. The end of the age will come when Jesus physically returns to the earth and sets up his millennial kingdom. The fact that we are still in the same age that Jesus and his disciples were in can be seen from the question that his disciples asked:
“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Therefore, there are not seven ages, there is the one we are currently in and it will end with the physical, visual return of Christ to earth.
(Continued)
(Continued)
You said:
“The false vine never gets its “Seals” opened up. And death, hell, and the grave is all that is left for them. The 4th. Seal. ”
Rebut:
This just makes no sense whatsoever! Those first four seals are the beginning of the wrath of God being poured out upon the earth and the result is a fourth of the earth’s population being killed by sword, famine, plagues and by the wild beasts of the earth. By saying this, you would inferring that the true vine gets their seals opened. So, why would anyone want their seals opened up when the seals represent wrath? In short, the those seals are what is sending them to death and Hades.
You said:
“Sardis means escaped one. And that is talking about Luthers day”
Rebut:
This is purely conjecture in that that it is all according to your own application. There is nothing that would link Sardis with Luther, but is by your own interpretation only.
You said: (and I can’t believe that I am even bothering with this)
“Its the same to day with the N.T church. Heb. 13:8 fulfilled the same as in Jesus 1st. and 2nd coming. The 3 mentioned above – Balaam doctrine, Nicolatian, turned into Jezebel-ism. And its still with us in the N.T. Rev. 17- and 18 tell us show.”
Rebut:
First of all, Jesus has only appeared once and that when he was born of Mary, so you are in error in regards to his second coming as if it had already taken place. Furthermore, Heb.13:8 which is “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever,” has nothing to do with Jesus 1st or 2nd coming. It is a declaration of his eternal state and that he never changes. God is not a man to lie nor the Son of Man to repent.
Furthermore, the doctrine of Balaam and the Nicolaitan’s are synonymous r that being, the teaching of leading people to deliberately eat food sacrificed to idols and to engaging in sexual immorality. Rev.17 and 18 which is describing the woman who rides the beast and the details of her destruction. The woman is identified as a literal “City” that sits on seven hills, which would be her headquarters. She is referred to as Mystery Babylon the Great and is committing spiritual adultery against God. She, which includes her as a city and her pagan system, will be destroyed by the beast and the ten kings. It will be a literal event that will take place during the last 3 1/2 years before the Lord returns.
agree.
(Continued)
You said:
” The whole book of Revelation is about the fall of Jerusalem and Christ coming to resurrect the N.T Jew and Gentile church.”
The book of Revelation from chapter four on, is the fulfillment of the day of the Lord. It embraces the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” and the punishment of the inhabitants of the entire earth, those who will have continued to reject the Jesus as Lord and who will continue to live according to the sinful nature. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are the fulfillment of the day of the Lord and what was prophesied in Isa.13:12, which says:
“I will make man more scarce than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.”
God is going to decimate the population of the earth during that time via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. This is synonymous with the Rock that was cut out of the mountain without human hands that falls on the feet of the statue, which is Christ dismantling human government to make way for his kingdom. (Dan.2)
By the way, the church is not here on the earth from chapter four on. I challenge you to find the word Ekklesia/Church, anywhere after the very end of chapter 3 in any part of the narrative. The church could not be here during that time and that because the wrath of God will be in the process of being poured out upon the entire earth and we as believers are not appointed to suffer wrath.
You said:
“Pharisee means actor. Among other things. Imitators of the truth.”
Rebut:
Here is the definition of the word Pharisee:
[“Pharisee” is derived from the Aramaic term, peras (“to divide and separate”). This literally refers to a “separatist”; hence, a Pharisee was someone “separated from sin.”]
I believe that the word “Hypocrite” is what you were looking for in regards to meaning “actor”:
hypokritḗs (a masculine noun derived from 5259 /hypó, “under” and 2919 /krínō, “judge”) – properly, a judging under, like a performer acting under a mask (i.e. a theater-actor); (figuratively) a two-faced person; a “hypocrite,” whose profession does not match their practice – i.e. someone who “says one thing but does another.”
Therefore, even though Pharisees where called Hypocrites, the definition of the word “Pharisee” is not defined as an actor.
agree.
(Continued)
You said:
“I agree with you. But I cannot understand your reasoning of why you do not see this in the church world today. We still got Pharisee’s and Scribes and Councils and systems that will not ever learn the truth.”
Rebut:
“I never said that I did not see the equivalent of the Pharisees and Scribes in the world today. What I did say was that, the parable of the unclean spirit
was directed at the Pharisees, teachers of the law and the generation of that time who didn’t believe and wanted to see more signs. So, though there are people who mirror the Pharisees today, Jesus was not referring to all generations, but only to that particular generation to which he was addressing. For even though we do believe in the miracles and signs that Jesus performed during their time, none of the following generations were there to see the miracles that he performed. Not to mention that Jesus qualifies those of whom he is speaking of when at the end of the parable he says, “This is how it will be with this wicked generation.”
In conclusion, Jesus was speaking to that generation who were guilty of wanting to see a sign, even after they had been taught by the Son of God in person and who had already seen him perform many miracles and signs.
(Continued)
You said:
“Understanding your day and its Message should mean everything to you. Heart, Soul, and Body, and Mind.
Rebut:
I do understand the message and I am currently continuing to watch and pray as I wait for the Lord to descend from heaven and gather his dead followed by those who are still alive, we being changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and being caught up to me him in the air, where he will take us back to the Father’s house that where he is we may be also
(John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18).
You said:
“Jesus said EAT of me — That’s the Word and also the present Wedding feast.”
Rebut:
I know the reason that you said the above was because you believe that we are currently enjoying the wedding feast, which would also be false. Regarding the wedding feast Jesus said:
“I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.”
The kingdom of heaven is exactly that, in heaven and not on earth. Therefore, the wedding feast is an actual feast that will take place in heaven. I say this, because I remember that in one of your previous posts awhile back you referred to the kingdom of heaven as being on earth, which would be a conflict of terms. It is called the “Kingdom of heaven” because its not on earth, but in the heavenly realms.
i hope you have looked into first thessalonians chapter four and took specific note of verse 14. god is bringing those who slept in christ with him ! he is not going to literaly open the grave and the fleshly body come out. why would he; their comming back with him, then we which are alive and remain (thats the key word) (remain) shall be caught up togrther with them (those god is bring back) in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. many, many people do not even see the part about god will bring them with him.
Dear John -take your time with comparing these it will be worth it to you.
The comparison chart below establishes this point vividly. No only are the principle features of “Olivet” in Paul’s account, but even the order is substantially the same.
“Yet the remarkable feature, which must surely impress all but those who simply will not see, is the singular correspondence between the phraseology here (Matt. 24:30-31), and … I Thessalonians 4:15-18 . . . Then what kind of Bible interpretation is it which can take exactly the same phrases and symbols in I Thessalonians 4:15-16 and say that there they teach a secret coming of a rapture!. . . Nothing can disguise to an honest eye the parallel between Matthew 24:30-31 and I Thessalonians 4:15-18.” 4.
Event I Thess. 4-5 Matt. 24-25
1. Christ Himself returns 4:16 24:30
2. from heaven 4:16 24:30
3. with a shout 4:16 24:30 (in power)
4. Accompanied by angels 4:16 24:31
5. With trumpet of God 4:16 24:31
6. Believers gathered 4:17 24:31, 40-41
7. In clouds 4:17 24:30
8. Time Unknown 5:1-2 24:36
9. Will come as a thief 5:2,4 24:43
10. Unbelievers unaware of
impending judgment 5:3 24:37-39
11. Judgment comes as
travail upon expectant
mother 5:3 24:8 (RV)
12. Believers not decided 5:4-5 24:4 ff.
13. Believers to watch 5:6 24:42
14. Warning against
drunkenness 5:73 24:49
Beacon
beacon; when it specifically states; those who rest in christ god will bring with him. that should make a bell go off in your mind.
Hi Johnwaltz,
The problem stems from expounders such as Beacon, who don’t recognize that there is a difference between the event of the appearing of the Lord to resurrect the dead and catch up the living opposed to the Lord’s physical and visual return to the earth to end the age and begin his millennial kingdom. These are two separate events.
In Rev.19:11-21 we have the Lord descending from heaven riding on a white horse and we (old testament saints and the church) are following behind him also riding on white horses dressed in fine linen, white and clean. These are not angels, for if you look at Rev.19:6-8 you will read of the Bride (church) receiving that fine linen, white and clean that she is seen wearing in 19:14. Also, if you go back and look at Rev.17:13-14 you will see the following:
“They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The verse above is synonymous with Rev.19:14,19 and those who are riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean are synonymous with his called, chosen and faithful followers mentioned in 17:13-14.,That is, they are the same group of people. Therefore, we know that this is not speaking of angels and that because they would not be referred to as his called, faithful and chosen followers.
That being said, since we are returning with the Lord from heaven sometime after the seventh bowl was poured out, how could we be resurrected and caught up at his return when we are following behind him? Not only that, but in John 14:1-3, Jesus said that he went to prepare a place for us and that he would come back again and receive us so that he could take us back to the Father’s house to be where he is. This would fit with the resurrection and catching away in that, when this takes place, Jesus does not return to the earth to end the age, but to gather us in order to take us back to the Father’s house in order to be where he is. This is where the literal wedding feast will take place (in heaven) with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And where it will be fulfilled where Jesus said to his disciples, “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
In case you’re wondering, the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is of the great tribulation saints. We know this because in the verse is states that they kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and they did not worship the beast, his image or receive his mark, which would put them in that time period. As I said before, Beacon or anyone would be hard-pressed to find the word church anywhere in the narrative, for the last time that the word is used is at the very end of chapter 3. Those mentioned throughout the rest of the narrative is in reference to the great tribulation saints who were introduced in Rev.7:9-17. The very fact that the elder asks John who these are wearing white robes and where they came from, as well as the fact that John didn’t know who they were, would infer that this group is not the church, but great tribulation saints, which is another group in Christ different from the church.
The conclusion to all this is, with what Beacon is teaching and what we are teaching, we both can’t be in Christ, because one is teaching the truth, which would make the other a false teaching and therefore a false teacher.
Well brother “dmcal” you have the right to believe what you want to.
I guess I could answer you back line for line but would it do you any good or worth my time. I doubt it. Its ok if you want to believe the way you do.
Beacon
Bro. John –
1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which “”sleep”” in Jesus will God bring with him.
I Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are “”asleep””.
The sleep is death – as in Lazarus — they said he sleepeth – Jesus said Lazarus was dead. The New testament does not have soul sleeping.
1. Of course when you die that beings your last rapture. You will see the dead in Christ alive with Christ. We are Written Epistles in our life. When you die you are going to your place of judgment = good or bad.
2. If you are a Christian then you will see the other Christians that were on the other side already with Christ. You just joined them. When you die your dead clay flesh body goes back to dust. Read the scriptures below.
3. You New Creation Spirit man and Spirit body rise to meet those that have already risen and are with Christ.
4. The Holy Ghost man that is IN YOU NOW will be set free from the Terrestrial natural man and body.
1 Cor. 15:40 † There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
I COR 15:41- There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
I COR 15:42- So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I COR 15:43- It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
I COR 15:44- It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
I COR 15:45- And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
PS. Everyone on this planet is in a Celestial or a Terrestrial Body. Only one can rule you . One of them eventually has to die out completely. Yes your soul will be annihilated and have its “part time” in the lake of fire. Their is no eternal life but in Jesus Christ. The others will perish, be destroyed etc. etc.
Its your spirit and soul that controls the flesh- the soul is the nature and character of which spirit has taken you over. That is where the Mark comes in to play. You are either marked with Gods character or satan’s character. When you die you are already judged. By your written epistle of your character.
Beacon – I’m for you Bro. John not against you.
beacon; after christ arose from the dead it states that many of the saints that slept were seen walking the streets. jesus said that god is not the god of the dead but of the living. since the time of the resurection of the saints that slept and then were seen walking the streets after jesus arose, from that time forward if you were a real christian you went to gods rest. gods rest is in heaven./ you also cannot just ignore it when it states that those who slept in christ are comming back with him. they are taken from gods rest and return with the lord and we who are still alive and remain are caught up to meet the lord in the air. this is what it says.
Beacon/johnwaltz,
You said:
“The sleep is death – as in Lazarus — they said he sleepeth – Jesus said Lazarus was dead. The New testament does not have soul sleeping.”
Rebut:
Whenever you come across in Scripture the mention of the dead being asleep, it is speaking specifically about the body. Scripture tells us that at the time of death the soul/spirit departs from the body as can be seen from Paul’s example in the following Scripture:
“If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: [I desire to depart and be with Christ,] which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”
Notice that in the verse above, Paul believes that his soul/spirit departs from the body and goes to be with the Lord at the time of death. Here is another example:
“he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.” They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” [Her spirit returned,] and at once she stood up.
Again, in the Scripture above, notice that Jesus says that the girl is asleep, referring to her body. Notice also that when Jesus told her to get up Scripture says, “Her spirit returned,” which would infer that her spirit had departed from the body. Here is another example denoting that our soul/spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord at the time of death:
“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. ” (1 Cor.5:6-8)
Notice that Paul says, “as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,” then he says, “I would prefer to be away from the body and be at home with the Lord.” This would show that at the time of death, our soul/spirits depart from the body and go to be in the presence of the Lord.
For anyone who believes that at the time of death that the body, soul and spirit remain in the ground, Scripture just does not support this belief, because there are just too many examples of conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death. The people who believe that at the time of death, that the body, soul and spirit sleep in the dust of the earth, are forced to distort and circumvent many Scriptures that prove otherwise. Here are a couple that show conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death:
* Moses and Elijah appearing to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.
* Jesus said to the thief, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
* While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my
spirit.”
* Lazarus and the rich man
* “that at the name of Jesus every knee would bow, in heaven and on earth and [under the earth] ”
Note: The reference to “under the earth” is speaking of those in Hades. Also, it would be kind of difficult to confess Christ and bow the knee if body, soul and spirit were asleep in the dust of the earth.
* “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or [under the earth] could open the scroll or even look inside it.”
Note: Again, under the earth is in reference to those in Hades.
* when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Note: These souls under the altar in heaven are conscious and aware and are having a conversation with the Lord.
(Continued)
You said:
“1. Of course when you die that beings your last rapture.”
Beacon, your claim of being resurrected and caught up at the time of death does not coincide with the Scripture:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.”
And its sister verse:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Notice that Scripture states that the dead in Christ will rise first and immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed and caught up to meet those just previously resurrected in the clouds. This shows that the event of the resurrection of the righteous dead and the catching away of the living happens in very close proximity to each other and is a group event, not an individual event at the time of each persons death. The catching away cannot take place at the time of each persons individual death, because then the Scripture above would make no sense. According to your claim, that would mean that every Christian who has already died in the past would be currently waiting in the clouds for the death of each believer until the end of the church period, which is just ridiculous. The resurrection takes place, then immediately after that, in the blink of an eye, those who are still alive are changed and caught up with those who will have just been resurrected.
good explanation of soul sleep
(Continued)
You said:
“When you die your dead clay flesh body goes back to dust.”
Rebut:
The above is true for those believers who die prior to the resurrection, that is, their bodies are buried and decay. But, for those who are still alive at the time of the resurrection, their bodies are changed on the spot and take on those eternal qualities that Paul mentions below:
“So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;”
Those who are resurrected will be raised in the same bodies that they had in life, with the exception that they will take on those heavenly qualities previously mentioned. The Lord is the example of how we will be resurrected and since he was raised in the same body that he was crucified in, then those who have died in Christ will also rise in their same bodies, but with the heavenly updates.
You said:
“1 Cor. 15:40 † There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
I COR 15:41- There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differ from another star in glory.”
Rebut:
The question that Paul put forth was, “Some might say, ‘with what kind of body will they come?” Regarding the two Scriptures that you quoted, Paul is basically showing an example of the difference between our present bodies and the ones to come.
You said:
“PS. Everyone on this planet is in a Celestial or a Terrestrial Body. Only one can rule you . One of them eventually has to die out completely. Yes your soul will be annihilated and have its “part time” in the lake of fire. Their is no eternal life but in Jesus Christ. The others will perish, be destroyed etc. etc.”
Rebut:
What you said above is just absurd!!! When we receive Christ, we are saved, body, soul and spirit. Part of us is NOT going to be annihilated in the lake of fire. Not to mention, the lake of fire is not a place of annihilation, but a place of eternal punishment. There is no Scripture whatsoever to support your theory on this.
(Continued)
You said:
“That is where the Mark comes in to play. You are either marked with Gods character or satan’s character.”
Rebut:
The mark of the beast will be an actual mark, which will be placed in the right hand or in the forehead just as Scripture states. When John was shown the visions of the mark, he was seeing something from the future that he had nothing to compare with from his time period, except for the word “Charagma” which is defined as:
“properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.”
“(“brand-mark”) was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became “the identification-marker” (like with an owner’s unique “brand-mark”).”
The key to understanding what the mark is, can be found right in the Scripture, for of the mark it says:
“so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark”
Buying and selling is crediting and debiting. The system that the mark is going use is already set up and people use it every day without realizing it, even Christians. The debit card is the precursor to the mark. The majority of purchases today are now made using the debit card via electronic crediting and debiting. When a person goes into the grocery store and their purchases are totaled, they then swipe their card and the amount is electronically debited from their bank account. The same is true for gas, food, utility payments, mortgage, etc. Within the last couple of years, they have developed applications and hardware, such as “the Square” by Chase bank, that fits right into your phone or other computer devices which allows individuals to make purchases from each other, crediting and debiting each others bank accounts.
Now getting back to John, the closest comparison that he could make of what he was seeing in the vision was the word “Charagma” which means an etching, an impress, branding, engraving. Because John had nothing from his time period to compare to what he was seeing in the vision. For example John could not say:
“He forces all both great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a sub dermal device implanted in the right hand or the forehead and except anyone had that device, they would not be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts.”
Though it is true that the system that the mark will use is already in place and is in use, the mark itself is not yet in use and neither has that antichrist been revealed. In God’s timing, after that man has been revealed, then the world will continue as they have been in the process of doing, and that is to make cash and checks obsolete. This is why for so many years now, we have seen the push to go paperless, that is, to make payments either by having them automatically withdrawn from our bank accounts or to pay them on line via debit/credit card. When that antichrist is revealed the way in which he will force everyone to receive his mark will be by making cash, checks, credit and debit cards obsolete, leaving only one way to credit and debit ones bank account and that by receiving that sub dermal device (mark) in the right hand or forehead. At that time, unless a person has that mark, they will not be able to perform any action on their bank account, either to credit or debit it, ergo, “He forces all to receive.”
In closing, it will be a literal mark on/in the right hand or forehead and is not meant to be speaking symbolically. Those who receive the mark will be pledging their allegiance to the beast, which will allow them to continue to be apart of the world system, having a job and being able to credit and debit their bank accounts via the mark. Those great tribulation saints of that time will refuse the mark which will automatically make them enemies of the beast and his kingdom and they will be persecuted and killed for keeping their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will refuse to worship the beast, his image and will not receive his mark. We already know what happens to those who receive the mark as described in Rev.14 by the announcement made by that third angel flying in midair.
For those who believe that the mark is symbolic for observing the Sabbath on Sunday, the burden of proof is on them, as there is nothing mentioned in the Scripture whatsoever regarding the Sabbath nor is there anything that would support the requirement for a symbolic interpretation, as the Scripture remains consistent everywhere the mark is mentioned.
And lastly, now having this information, Christian’s should be resisting this system and honoring God by not willfully using the system, not depending on point-of-sale (POS) purchases via debit cards via electronic crediting and debiting, even though the mark is not yet here. To do so shows a willingness to use the system and that for the sake of convenience. And if you can’t resist using It for the sake of convenience, what would you do if your life depended on receiving it?
In case you’re wondering, I use cash and checks for all my transactions.
1. To dmcal – I don’t think I heard this scripture in your posts above. “”To be absent in the Body is to be present with the Lord.”” In New Testament.
2. The 2. OT “SAINTS ” were sleeping in Heavenly places = Paradise. Waiting for the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ “Eternal Blood” to be shed for them.
3. O.T sinners were dead and went back to dust and clay.
Eze. 18:4 so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
4. That’s why you seen Moses and Elijah with Christ on the mount of transfiguration. Show his 3 witnesses the Resurrection of all saints are coming after His own Resurrection had taken place. Each in their own order. O.T first.
5, So After the “Resurrection of Christ” the “Celestial Soul man” which represents the “Whole man” Spirit , soul, and Body goes immediately to Heaven – The old flesh and blood system of mankind will rot away back to clay and dust just as the Bible says.
A. You have 2 births —1st. Natural by sex desire just goes back to clay and dust. You will die and perish if you only have a sex desire Natural birth.
B. But the 2nd. The New Creation into you by Christ. Gives you Eternal life.
C. But the “”New Creation of the “blood of God” applied. Death turns into Resurrection and Eternal Life. – You do not go to the 2nd death if you have a New Birth = Jesus living in you. The only Form of Eternal life.
1 SAM. 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be SILENT in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
Silent means –struck dumb–Destroyed–die
Job. 7: 9 As the cloud is consumed and “”vanisheth away“”: so he that “”goeth down to the grave “”shall come up no more“”. Job is talking of the wicked man – they get no resurrection. The been judged by their life.
Psalms 6: 9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth “”down to the grave shall come up no more.””
Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, “”shall be stubble:”” and the day that cometh shall “”burn them up””, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither “”root nor branch.””
Stubble means completely gone nothing left – You came by a earth body of sexual desire and you go back to the earth.
Jesus and His Bride are intimately in relationship. Becoming ONE UNIT. By the Spirit .
Beacon – You post is so long Dmcal – I will have to do it in little pieces. Makes it more simple to understand.
Beacon – Im for you not against you.
Beacon,
You’re missing the point!
You said:
“To be absent in the Body is to be present with the Lord.”
To be absent from the body means that the spirit/soul departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body is buried in the earth and decays. When the resurrection takes place, Jesus brings with him the souls/spirits of those who have died and they are reunited with their resurrected bodies. Right now, the souls/spirit of those who have died are conscious and aware in the presence of Christ and are looking forward to the resurrection of their bodies.
You said:
“3. O.T sinners were dead and went back to dust and clay.”
Rebut:
Well Beacon, you had better tell Samuel that when he came up and spoke with Saul. Moses also spoke with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration showing that his soul/spirit was aware and conscious. The resurrection of Moses and the rest of the OT saints is still to come. Moses’ appearing was not his resurrection.
You said:
“5, So After the “Resurrection of Christ” the “Celestial Soul man” which represents the “Whole man” Spirit , soul, and Body goes immediately to Heaven – The old flesh and blood system of mankind will rot away back to clay and dust just as the Bible says.”
Rebut:
Since Jesus is our example, when he resurrected, it was in the same body that he was crucified in and it was a body of flesh and bone, as the following Scripture confirms:
“Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Jesus’ proof that it was him in the flesh was his hands and his feet, which were the nail marks that he was drawing the disciples attention to. Then to further prove that he was not a spirit, he says, “A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have.” John goes on to say, “We know not what we shall be, but we know that when we see him we shall be like him.” At the resurrection and catching away, we will also have bodies of flesh and bone referred to as spiritual bodies and that because they will have taken on heavenly characteristics. Jesus also said that, in the resurrection we will become like the angels in heaven. I believe that after the resurrection, though we will have bodies of flesh and bone as he does, they will also have spiritual abilities. An example of that would be the Lord having a body of flesh and bone and at the same time being able to appear behind locked doors, meaning that though he was/is corporeal, yet he was able to pass through solid objects.
(Continued)
You said:
“Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, “”shall be stubble:”” and the day that cometh shall “”burn them up””, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither “”root nor branch.””
Stubble means completely gone nothing left – You came by a earth body of sexual desire and you go back to the earth. ”
Rebut:
As I stated before, the final destination for those whose names have not been written in the book of life from before the world began, their place will be the lake of fire. It is a place of continual punishment and not a place of annihilation as the following Scriptures will show:
“And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
“And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
For those who receive the mark, Scripture shows that the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. That being the case, it would infer that they must exist in order to be torment forever and ever, as well as for them not to any rest day or night. That can’t happen unless a person is existing, conscious and aware. Same thing with the beast, the false prophet and Satan, for you cannot have them tormented day night forever and ever unless they continue to exist.
This next verse completely kills the idea of the wicked being annihilated, but demonstrates that punishment is eternal:
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Notice in the last verse that the Scripture says that the wicked will go into [eternal] punishment, but the righteous to [eternal] life. Now, I think that everyone will agree that, the reference to the righteous receiving eternal life would infer that they will have never ending life, correct? That being the case, since the righteous receive unending life, then the punishment for the wicked would also have to be unending punishment. If the word “Eternal” in verse means temporary or annihilation, then it has to have the same meaning for both parties. Since we know that the eternal life that the righteous receive is never ending life, that is, life without end, then the wicked must also receive never ending (on-going) punishment, for the same thing is said for both sides. You can’t have one meaning temporary and the other meaning forever. Destruction means complete ruin of the person, not annihilation.
Bro. John:you said – jesus said that god is not the god of the dead but of the living.
A. I amen that above – absolutely right – God does not give sinner’s eternal life. They die the 2nd. death. They rejected HIM and placed ”satan” over them as their god.
1. Mankind create’s his own destiny by choice. Only two choices. The Image of God our Father = The Mark of Jesus Christ – or – god of this world = the Mark of the Beast.
2. As you well know – Beast do not rise to eternal life. A dog cannot enter into heaven. So he is dead, dead, dead. And is never coming back up. He turns to stubble. Mal. 4:1
you said – since the time of the resurrection of the saints that slept and then were seen walking the streets after jesus arose,
1. Yes and They were OT saints not sinners.
You said – you also cannot just ignore it when it states that those who slept in christ are coming back with him.
1. Yes that is true – Moses had Christ in Him. The bible says so. Enoch, Elijah, and all that had Christ= Holy Spirit in them came back in the Representation of Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration.
2. Moses symbolized the O.T church of Israel. Elijah symbolized the Live Saints from the N.T church in New Testament Power for all who would enter the “Kingdom of God” which is our Canaan land promise in the N.T.
you said – They are taken from gods rest and return with the lord and we who are still alive and remain are caught up to meet the lord in the air. this is what it says.
0. Yes and on the Mount of Transformation. What did we see. Moses and Elijah merging together AND both of them together with CHRIST. The so called dead saints of the O.T were sleeping in Paradise=heavenly places waiting for Jesus day.
1. Why don’t people see this in Rev. 11 – Thier were only 2 doors made out of Olive wood and laid over with Gold that believers could walk through to get to the Holiest of Holies. The two doors are the two witness of Moses and Elijah. The Whole of Gods Saints in O.T and N.T now. Jew and Gentile.
They both died but came back in resurrection . By this we know that for sure that Moses and Elijah even in their day raptured into the “Kingdom” of God already at their death of the old man. Paul said in Heb. 11 that “all died” and I believe what he says and taught. Christ IN THEM the Holy Spirit under their substitute temporal covenant of Moses. Jesus Christ anointing was in them. Yes you could have a “Born again” experience even in the O.T. Under Moses Covenant of law. But as a whole it only effected Israel when it was coming into their Canaan land. That was their “Kingdom of God” and Rest and Peace that came with the Prophets and David and Solomon and Samuel etc. etc.
2. We all have to meet Jesus in the “AIR” = the Holy Spirit. That means “raised up into new life”. All of Adams race had to be “raised up again” into the air of the New Creation. By the Same Holy Spirit we have today. Look up Holy Spirit in the O.T and find out for yourself.
Eph. 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the “AIR”, the SPIRIT that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
There are about 3 different words used for AIR in the N.T – coming soon
1 Thess. 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Air in Eph. 2:2
In the Exodus of Moses. The cloud was with them and guided them. That cloud was Christ the Holy Spirit. And other gone on saints dressed in white with him. Remember Elijah seeing the heavenly host of heaven with God.
Cloud 3507 from 3509; — cloud (26)
1) a cloud; used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness
2. Now Israel had a “rapture out of Egypt” to their Promised land. Hello anybody home out their. But it was a real fight to the Death to take it over. Walled cities, giants, skilled warrior’s that hated them.
The Reality of the ‘rapture’ is the same to day. We must depend on the Lord to deliver us and make a way of escape out of this evil world system that has us bound as slaves. We will have to come out the same way Israel did. Or God did it wrong for them. The Cloud was with them, The Pillar of Fire was their. The Lord Even came down to them to be seen. They had a Great Prophet that challenged even Pharaoh and he could not withstand the Power of Moses.
It will have to be the same way today. Heb. 13:8 – We have already had the Prophets with Thus saith the Lord, We have been baptized in the Holy Spirit with Power and Faith and Love for are real homeland. And we are going to have to use all our weapons and whole desire to win the battle and to rise to the occasion. Jesus said himself we have to take it by force.
Special Note – the Protestants and Catholic church’s our all gathering around their great prophet the Pope. But he will not deliver them. NO sir
Christians are getting to be the Most favorite to pick on and kill these days. Oh Lord be with us in your might. Who shall be able to stand.
Beacon
Beacon,
Do you always force Scripture to mean what you want? Do you ever stay on topic? Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection. No one else has been resurrected up to this time. The resurrection of the OT saints and the church is next and will be a group event. As far as Scripture goes, neither Elijah nor Enoch have yet died. Moses died, but has not yet been resurrected. That is, his physical body is still in the dust of the earth. It was the soul/spirit of Moses that God allowed to take corporeal form at the mount of transfiguration. When the next phase of the first resurrection takes place, then Abraham, Moses, King David and all of the OT saints including the church will be resurrected. Just so you understand, the very word “Anastasis” which is translated “Resurrection” means a physical “standing up again” in the same body, as can be seen from the definition of the word below:
anástasis (from 303 /aná, “up, again” and 2476 /hístēmi, “to stand”) – literally, “stand up” (or “stand again”), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ’s physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis (“resurrection”) refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
Ergo, Jesus resurrected in the same body that he was crucified in, which was and is a body of flesh and bone and we will also rise in our same bodies with some heavenly upgrades.
Regarding further proof to you that neither the resurrection nor catching away is done on an individual basis, please consider the following:
“Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. ”
In the Scripture above, you have two men, Hymenaeus and Philetus who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. This would infer that it is a group event. Paul also referred to their teaching as “godless chatter” and that by their teaching they were destroying the faith of some. Why would that destroy anyone’s faith? The answer is, because according to the Lord’s teaching through Paul, the resurrection of the righteous dead would take place first and then immediately following that those living believers in Christ would be changed in a moment and caught up with those resurrected in the clouds. Therefore, by them teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, then the people who were waiting for Christ and were still alive, would have expected to have been caught up, because that is what immediately follows the resurrection. Therefore, for someone to be teaching that the resurrection had already taken place and that living believers had not be caught up, there faith could be destroyed, because For them to still be here on earth would mean that for whatever reason they missed it and now they would only have the wrath of God to look forward to.
The word “Dead” in the verse “The dead in Christ shall rise first” is plural, meaning more than one individual. I don’t know where you got the idea of individual resurrections and catching aways at the time of death, but what you are proclaiming is just not supported by Scripture. You need to come back to your senses, rightly dividing the word of God.
remember when jesus took i believe it was john and james and peter up into a mountain, and there appeared moses and elias. do you remember that jesus told them not to talk about the vision untill after his resurection. the reason was; jesus was showing those deciples an event that actually was the future. why do i call this an event from the future, because jesus is the first of the resurection . then we go right back to after jesus arose from the dead we see in gods word; that many of the saints that slept were seen walking the streets, this is a resurection! they did not go back into the graves. so when you use the ; dead in christ shall rise first then we which are alive and remain. (you need to stop at remain here to understand). there are several resurections. the ones that arose after jesus arose and were seen walking the streets. was a resurection. there is no way around this fact. there are resurections at the very end where it states the sea and death and hell will give up their dead. these are resurctions also. those who sleep in christ (gods rest) god brings back with him in the scriptures in thessalonians. this would be called a resurection also.
maybe he is thinking of that group that raised from the dead right after the resurrection…..people saw them walking around in the city.
yes, that was a resurection.
Well dmcal – you just do not believe the Bible like I do. Hey I see all kinds of things you say that I could respond to – But I do not want to really. Because me and you have hacked it around for a long time. And your post are way to long. I’m not going to even try to explain your 5 posts real long posts. Mine are big enough but you wrote a book. I have not got the time to take and just here you say. Im crazy. I’ve said before its alright if you think me wrong or crazy or a reprobate. You can think that. You have the right as an American. But when Judgment comes. The Epistle of you life will meet the Judge himself someday. You have a lot of zeal. And so do I. We just believe different.
The wide gate is easy to enter with the millions of like faith with them. Its great to have a lot of friends on your side and a lot of support. No problem till you start seeing darkness in the horizon. Then its to late to turn back and the gate will be shut. You ought to really take a study on some of the things I say. I did not invent them. Its in the Word.
Question – did Enoch and Elijah die. Its in the Word – read it brother its not my interpretation.
Heb. 11:5 By faith “”Enoch”” was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb. 11: 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
!!!!This is speaking of Elijah
Heb. 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
!!!! This verse is for all the Prophets and Believers that had to endure mockings and scourgings
Heb. 11: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Here is the BOTTOM LINE OF THE WHOLE CHAPTER
Heb. 11:13 These “”ALL DIED IN THE FAITH”” , “not having received the promises,” but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Here is “”ONE MORE”””- 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I will stay with Apostle Paul’s Revelation not the multitude of churchs of today.
Now what literal believers always do when you get trapped in the literal. You and your friends will get REAL SPIRITUAL now. And have to make something up.
That is the way it always works out with literal believers.
Beacon
Did you guys even bother to read this post, or watch the videos above? I ask, because you are doing exactly what the post says is detrimental to our Christian walk. You have been doing this now for years, quoting the bible, and arguing doctrine, never coming to the oneness of the Spirit. Do you think Jesus wants this in these end times? Us arguing about the rapture, or the second coming? Or does he want us to get to know him on an intimate level, as wife knows her husband…Yes, that intimately. Do You know what is on Jesus heart right now? Do you know his agony and sorrow? What it is that makes him Joyful? Are you doing something about it in your own life? Perhaps this will stir you to find and get to know the God of the word.
“With all this stuff to feed on, 95% of us are spiritual cripples, spiritual infants…”
the voice on the video is familiar….who was it?
good points in video
it is an appeal to the heart, not doctrine
The same as above, Leonard Ravenhill.
Just like Crocodile Dundee when he turned the TV on in the Hotel in NY it was a rerun of I love Lucy. The one time he had watched TV before, I love Lucy was on. His comment was something to the effect that its still the same thing on.
Yes Marianne, this is an appeal to the heart. Sound doctrine should create sound attitude, that being the devotion and love for Jesus, the only righteous response to the cross. Instead all we see here is bickering over the same arguments that have been going on for years now. Like children arguing over who is right and who is wrong. I fell for this as well, but not anymore. Is the Bible all literal? Or is the Bible all Spiritual? Or is the truth something Both Spiritual and Literal.
For example, you can have Spiritual famine, or you can have literal famine. The truth however, is that the Spiritual famine in the church is creating a literal famine in the world because of the insatiable appetite of the modern western church for material prosperity as we discussed on the other page. Some how the Gospel has become if you are rich you are blessed…so much for the beatitudes! all of these arguments are based on a famine of getting to know God and his love, and being satisfied with his Love. They feed the ego, fill that insatiable hunger for a moment. But they do not lead to any “Metanoia” or a change of heart and mind via repentance.
dru
I think a certain amount of academic discussion is ok, as long as it creates a better understanding , thus making one closer to god in the long run…however, I agree that the discussion should make progress and not end up in a rut somewhere.
That is the point of this post, is it not? To break free of those ruts and find Jesus, and get to Know him? The Gospel is not an academic discussion, or else only Scholars will get to know Him. It Is a relational discussion. It is something that speaks to the very notion of how we relate to one another, and to our God. Is this not what the law Is? Love the Lord your God with all your heart…Love your Neighbor as yourself. Jesus then added a new twist to this which is Love one another as I loved you….sacrificially, as the video points out. “The cardinal ethic of Christianity is sacrifice”. “we don’t need more light, we need more obedience…” to Jesus’ new commandment.
well yes and no…
with false doctrine we will be deceived….so it is important to know the truth..not just go by feelings.
there are whole churches out there now who “feel” close to Jesus, yet they live in sexual perversion and adultery.
they won’t repent, because their feelings are more important than sound doctrine
This is not about feelings or emotions Marianne. It is about will, and the desire to do the Will of God. It is about serving him, mind, soul and Spirit. About worshipping him in Spirit and in Truth. False teachers feed on emotions, and or the Mind. There have been equally as many false teachers who are Learned and academic men. Many of them are preachers in our churches today. they know church history, they know doctrine they know Greek and Hebrew, but they do not know God. They have never surrendered to the Will of God, and to being led by the Holy Spirit. for a more biblical example, look at the scribes and pharisees.
The reaction to the emotional is logical, and the reaction to the Logical is emotional. We Have the dead churches on one side, and the crazy charismatics on the other. Satan fights from two towers, and whichever side we fall to, we are falling off the Straight and narrow.
Take marriage as an example. Yes there is emotional love, but there is also Agape and Philos. At first a couple will get together for the emotional connection, but if it is genuine it will mature into brotherly love and finally sacrificial love. There is also the mental side of the relationship. How we spend our income, where we will live how we raise the kids etc. If there is no unity in either of these aspects, then the marriage is doomed. I have known couples that divorce because of disagreements about money, and ones that just do not have an emotional attachment to one another. In Both cases, their relationship never matured. It did not move past the emotional honeymoon phase, nor was concensus reached on the mental aspects of the relationship. So also are there levels of love for God in our life, and levels of getting to know God intimately. There is the emotional attachment and the mental attachment.
Now you can have a marriage that is totally emotional/Physical, where the mind is not involved, and you can have a marriage of convenience where emotion is not involved, only mental convenience is what holds them together. Do you think that this is what God wants for his Son? Or does he want a wife who submits to his will, and does so out of his or her own free will as an act of Agape Love?
Read 1 John 2 when you get a chance. He discusses these levels of faith. He calls them “Little children, Young men, and fathers.” The Knowledge of the fathers is a knowledge both intimate and mental and goes to the very beginning. The rest of the epistle speaks of how one progresses through these stages. The primary focus, “God’s Love perfected in us”.
have you thought that god is making us delve more and more into his word when we get into differences of opinions. from what i have seen on this site there are almost none of the commenters that are babes in christ. and the few who come here and do not have wisdom in the word ( not searched the scripture enough yet, for a better way of stating it), this will make them read more of the bible and less of what someone in a church tells them. if we are strong in the lord having these disagreements to a certain point simple makes us search out the lords word that much more. i am in agreement that we should not start telling each other were completly wrong or it is our own spirit in what we post. when we cannot get past some of these subjects, yes , then it is time to go to another subject.
Hi John,
Have you ever known couples in your neighborhood that are constantly bickering with each other? Eventually This constant bickering spreads around the neighborhood, and all of a sudden there is a rash of divorces in the neighborhood.
I am not denying the mental aspects or the emotional aspects of a relationship. I am saying that there is a maturity that one gets to regarding these aspects. Sacrificial Agape Love, and a concensus on the mental aspects of a relationship. About three and half years ago, I first came to this site. these same arguments were going on then, as are going on now. Many of the same people are involved in these arguments.
Do you think that God wants this sort of selfish behavior in the bride of his Son?
Yes there may be some benefits to this. Perhaps a couple in your neighborhood does not want to be like that couple enough that they make a positive change in their own life. What I call an antagonistic compromise. But those couples are few and far between. Instead, what tends to happen is that the ladies get together and gossip, and the men get together and grunt, and soon bickering builds in more relationships. But God is nowhere to be found, nor is he glorified.
Read first John, when you have time from this perspective.
As a side note, I was very involved in many of these debates, so I do not plead innocence or superiority. But when The Lord led me to change my mind, others accused me of pandering to both sides, and compromise, which were as far from the truth as possible.
not everything is bickering…there is healthy discussion also…how it is perceived is subjective sometimes.
true. I do not oppose reasoning nor discussion, but it must lead somewhere. Ideally, the foot of the cross in repentance and humility.
I will try this question again. Like I said in this post is exactly how it came out. No body has answered it yet. You went off on a tandem – Its a pretty simple question.
Question – did Enoch and Elijah die. Its in the Word – read it friends its not my interpretation.
Heb. 11:5 By faith “”Enoch”” was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb. 11: 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
!!!!This is speaking of Elijah
Heb. 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
!!!! This verse is for all the Prophets and Believers that had to endure mockings and scourgings
Heb. 11: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Here is the BOTTOM LINE OF THE WHOLE CHAPTER
Heb. 11:13 These “”ALL DIED IN THE FAITH”” , “not having received the promises,” but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Here is “”ONE MORE”””- 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I will stay with Apostle Paul’s Revelation not the multitude of churchs of today.
Now what literal believers always do when they get trapped in the literal. You and your friends will get REAL SPIRITUAL now. And have to make something up. That is the way it always works out with literal believers.
Seems that is the way it went on this one as well. You all fulfilled my quote.
Jesus talked and the people got angry all the time. They were taking council on how they could Kill Him. Today we just do it with words to kill a man’s influence. Is the same thing. Millions of Christians died for the FAITH – their belief. Their Revelation of the Mystery of Christ being revealed.
Beacon
this is TY is it not?
At any rate, Beacon,
I am not a literalist, nor am I a spiritualist. I see validity in both sides of this debate. On yours, is the fact that there remains much “Mystery” in the events to come. Many literalists are so locked in their way of thinking that they are not open to the verbal inspiration of the Holy Spirit in this day and age. The Word of God is a Living Word. It reveals more and more each day to us, as we read it reflect on it and study it. I also, much like a spiritualist do not trust in man’s understanding and interpretation. (Prov. 3:5-6). That being said, the things that are not revealed by the Spirit of Truth, I defer back to my literalist foundation and upbringing. I think both of these are needed in order to not deviate from The Truth. There are places in the bible that say not to deviate from the traditions you were brought up in, and others that say not to trust in the traditions of men. (Col. 2:8, 2 thess. 2:15)
Regarding rebirth, there is a time in our life when we put to death our flesh, and Jesus comes to be with us with the infilling of his Spirit. Is this a “second coming”? Yes. It as this point in our lives that we are transformed into a “new creation in Christ”. I No longer Live, it is Christ who lives in me. Many who oppose this teaching have never reached that point in their walk with the Lord. My flesh, however, still remains an earthen vessel, and is deteriorating as we speak. We will at some future time receive an immortal body, provided we have reached this point of “Putting to death the perishable” Spiritually within us. This is what most literalists believe is the rapture, or our translation. The Problem with most literalists, is that they do not do what is needed to reach the point of putting to death the flesh, and being filled with the Holy Spirit, and see the rapture as an escape from the responsibility of Repentance. In other words they wish to remain children in doctrine, not learning to be doers of the law out of a sanctified heart. Thus they wish to skip the first step, of “this perishable body put[ting] on the Imperishable (the filling of the Spirit) and wish then to claim the promise of “this mortal body Put[ting] on immortality.” See parenthesis below.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable (Becoming a new creation in Christ), and this mortal body must put on immortality (our translation/rapture). 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the VICTORY through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Thus, as newborn believers, we have yet to be guaranteed immortality of Body, only of Spirit/soul. But when we put to death the flesh, here in our time on earth, we then are reborn of the Holy Spirit, which then allows us to receive our immortal bodies. That is, in a nutshell, what it means to be like Christ. because he had to put to death his own flesh, that he might receive his eternal body.
I know every literalist will be up in arms now. “Our works have nothing to do with our salvation”.. They will say. But none of this is a work, it the process by which we make Jesus our Lord, Through surrender and sanctification. It is my belief that most of the people left behind, will be those who believe in a rapture, but have not put to death their own flesh. The only way then for them to be worthy of receiving the immortal body is to put the flesh to death at the hands of the Antichrist, who will carry that out willingly.
These are hard words for the literalist. I had endless debates on this with people on this site, But I know through the revelation of the Holy Spirit that this is true. The response of all literalists is to attack my teaching because it does not fit their interpretation. The intended goal of this is to get all who call themselves Christians on their knees in repentance as time is quickly running out.
Amen Dru – Im with you on most everything you say. We are really close in seeing the same way. What a blessing.
Beacon
Dru,
I am hesitant to post this due to our past history, however, have you ever stopped and taken into consideration, that what transpires here within this site, that what you are witnessing here, is only a small aspect, or percentage of any given persons walk with Yeshua?
By that what I am trying to convey is that, you really have no idea as to what people may do and how they sacrifice of themselves and demonstrate agape love to others when they are not participating here.
However within your posts, you appear to continue to express that it is only “You” that really understands that a true and intimate relationship is what is the required necessity. Please understand Dru, (and I believe that I can speak for others here on this site as well), many also understand this and seek that true and intimate relationship as well.
Please don’t judge people and what their personal relationship may consist of with Yeshua, based solely upon what you see demonstrated here.
There is so much more that you are simply not privy to.
Be Blessed in Yeshua.
Buck,
The mouth is a reflection of the heart. Man can do all sorts of good works on the outside and make themselves look good to the eyes. That does not mean that they are sanctified, and the law written on their heart.
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (Jas. 3:8)
Now I know we have written words here, but they come from the heart. Some of us, it has been given to interpret tongues. Instead of dismissing my words like you always do, then perhaps you should be a berrean about it and see if what I am saying is true. More Later
Dru you just don’t appear to “get it”, nor did you understand what I happened to say.
I have not “dismissed” what you have said, (though they are NOT YOUR words), what you say has been said and written down upon Holy scrolls some 2000 plus years ago and are Gods Inspired Words. If one “Seeks God” they will understand THOSE Words.
All that you are doing is reiterating those Words, like they have been reiterated and expressed countless times over the years by others, as I also reiterated them here when I went through my experience 2 years ago.
But neither I nor any of the past countless others “elevated themselves” and “condemned” others while expressing the requirement and necessity of Intimate Relationship with Him like you do.
But you always “judge” others based solely upon what they write here, and disregard “what and how” they may walk “IN” Yeshua.
So…… “What do you do, when you are not here?”
That is a rhetorical question, because I don’t really care, but God knows what you do, and He is the one that will judge a mans heart.
But ask yourself, “Do you really walk the walk that you preach yourself?”
“The Words that you reiterate are true, but are you a Berean yourself and do you demonstrate that “agape” towards others by what you write here?”
God the Father and Son is the Judge of souls, period!
Last Comment.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
I think people can carry on an academic discussion and still have a heart for the Lord. it just happens they are interested in a particular topic.
, for example have about 735 posts on scriptural issues / topics…..the Word of God is fascinating, and I love to study it….and this study just reinforces my love for the Lord….it shows how amazing He is.
I think each person’s walk with the Lord is personal and only he and the Lord know what that relationship is….
I can see some exceptions, where someone is obviously an unrepentant sinner and likes to argue, but most people here are born again, and just like to discuss certain topics.
i agree.
I agree too, but that is not the topic here. We are talking about Spirit and Truth. I do not condemn an academic discussion, not sure where you got that. But a discussion that has gone on for years on the same topic is not an academic discussion anymore, it is a defensive battle that leads nowhere. Trench warfare.
I did say that false teachers can use both emotion and logic to lead people astray, but that should be pretty commonplace knowledge. I did say that marriage is made of both, an emotional and an academic connection….heart and mind. And that there is a fullness in that relationship when all elements work together as God intended. I did not say academic discussion is bad, though I was critical of the trench warfare that occurs at this site and others, that only go around in circles. Law vs Grace, being the most famous one on here.
I gotta run again, talk to you later.
Buck,
Sorry, had to run out for a few minutes.
Ok, where were we.
First of all, I am not here to argue…believe it or not. I am here to deliver a message. You may say I am not a messenger of God, that is fine. Nonetheless I am able to deliver it, am I not? My message is one that has been spoken before, you are right on that. I walk in those footsteps and am proclaiming the same message. I am not looking for followers, never have been. I am not looking for donations…never have asked. My message is a message of repentance to God. My Only goal is to get everyone on their knees at the cross. You cannot criticize what I write, so you have to find a way to criticize how I write. Why? This message, has always been a difficult message to deliver. I left some videos here of preachers delivering that same message with their face covered in tears. Did they speak “politely”? or did they deliver that hard message to bear with shouts and “condemning words”. You see, that is the nature of this message. throughout the generations it has come at a high price. Many of these messengers have been burned at the stake, flogged, imprisoned, hung, tortured etc. So to have me executed in the court of public opinion means nothing to me.
Now you can ignore my message: that is up to you, or you can reflect upon that message and receive it with repentance. This has never been about me, or my ego, It has always been about you, and your relationship with Jesus. (That is all the “you’s’ who may read this.) It has been, as I have said many times, not about me being right (My ego), but about US getting it right (attitude of the church). Whether you can believe it or not, I have no alternate agenda. I have no website to promote, and no church to direct you to, Nor do I do this for my own pride and boasting. I do it, because I see the sacrifice and Love of Jesus on the cross for his church, and then I see his church taking advantage of that love, and living lawlessly or for self promotion and pride. It brings me to tears every time I think about it.
As to the people here, The ones who feel condemnation by this message and disdain for it are probably the ones that need to hear it the most. It is not my words that condemn you, it is your own heart. This is called conviction of the heart. Perhaps, instead of killing the messenger, you should look at why you have disdain for this message? this message will bring joy to those who heed it, but those who ignore it will be burned by its fire.
I know some here do not even want to interact with me. Instead they would rather claim God’s promise, without heeding this message. They say they want revival, but without this understanding, no revival will occur. This is the message that unifies the church and brings that revival on a grand scale. Perhaps They would rather see the church powerless, and wimper into the end times weak and ineffective? I will stand up to this wherever I go.
I will also stand up to anyone who says we can earn this power without falling on our faces at the cross. That we can justify ourselves through our actions. We can do none of this without the blood of Jesus and total surrender to his will.
Ask yourself, Buck, why is it so hard for you to receive this message? You Know it is straight from the word of God. If this is the same message you preached 2 years ago, why is it that you do not receive it with tears of Joy that the Lord has sent another to deliver that message? Instead you treat me as a charlatan. Is this not a judgment on your part? You accuse me of being divisive…another judgment? You say I am trying to elevate myself…another judgment? That is because you did not deliver this same message. Though you may have had a fire in you at the time, and though you preached the gospel, it was never the one that leads to repentance. In fact, as I recall, you opposed repentance when I suggested it to you. Then, and NOW. Why?
Jesus is the Lord (1 Cor. 12:3)
Dru I said that I wouldn’t respond anymore to you, however I will just say this one more time.
You say above, “Ask yourself, Buck, why is it so hard for you to receive this message?”
Well dru, You have “no idea” as to “if” I have “received” this message or not, so,…. “How can you can even ask a question like that”?
Really dude? Who do you think that you are?
It is not about my relationship with you that I hold important within my heart, but it is the Relationship with Yeshua my Savior that is my priority and first Love.
If you had comprehended what I had written above, you would have understood that it is not the “message” that is hard to receive or accept, (For I do accept it full heartedly, and my Father knows my heart for Him), but rather what is difficult to receive is “the messenger” and how in such a hypocritical fashion that message is delivered.
Frankly dru, you are the most self-righteous individual that I’ve ever had the misfortune of engaging with here.
(Which has been the reason behind your numerous banning’s from this site.)
Below is my final comment to you….
“Physician heal thyself, and practice what you preach.”
Amen.
please consider that you are telling people to repent when they may have already done that….so it is like preaching to the choir
Hey – Im still waiting on this simple answer from someone. I will try this question again. Like I said in this post is exactly how it came out. No body has answered it yet. You went off on a tandem – Its a pretty simple question.
Question – did Enoch and Elijah die. Its in the Word – read it friends its not my interpretation.
Heb. 11:5 By faith “”Enoch”” was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb. 11: 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king’s commandment.
!!!!This is speaking of Elijah
Heb. 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
!!!! This verse is for all the Prophets and Believers that had to endure mockings and scourgings
Heb. 11: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Here is the BOTTOM LINE OF THE WHOLE CHAPTER
Heb. 11:13 These “”ALL DIED IN THE FAITH”” , “not having received the promises,” but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Here is “”ONE MORE”””- 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I will stay with Apostle Paul’s Revelation not the multitude of churchs of today.
Now what literal believers always do when they get trapped in the literal. You and your friends will get REAL SPIRITUAL now. And have to make something up. That is the way it always works out with literal believers.
Seems that is the way it went on this one as well. You all fulfilled my quote.
I guess that question was prophetic.
thanks dru/dave for your post back to me – Just having 1 person agree is alot of help at times like these.
But no one yet has answered my simple question. Did Enoch and Elijah die.
I got the scriptures above that says they did. hello
Beacon
Beacon,
assuming the Spirit of Elijah was in John the Baptist, then yes he did face death. Enoch I am less sure of. Though I do see your point in verse “these all died in faith”. There is also some thinking that Stephen, the first Martyr had the Spirit of Enoch…was filled. Thus at the time of Hebrews being written, he had died “In faith” as well??? I cannot say with certainty though.
Dru,
Scripture states that John the Baptist came in the power of Elijah, not that Elijah was literally residing in him. That is, John the Baptist came in the same spirit as Elijah.
“The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
“Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.”
That is what I said, The Spirit of Elijah faced death while in John the Baptist. His mortal flesh is saved for end times to face physical death. This would prove the verse from Hebrew true, that “all have faced death”. The Enoch connection to Stephen is more speculative though.
I do see John the revelator as the second of the two witnesses. There are many clues in the bible, Including the last verse of chapter 10, and the fact that he was boiled in oil but did not die, hence his imprisonment at Patmos. Yes I know, there is a grave there for him.
Hi Dru,
I don’t think that you understood what I said above, so let me clairfy.
In my opinion, John the Baptist was John the Baptist. He was sent as a type of Elijah to make straight paths for the Lord, but he was not Elijah nor was Elijah’s spirit literally residing in him. He was only as a type of Elijah, like spirited, if you will.
The words of Jesus above, that you posted would disagree.
“But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished.” It does not say a “type of Elijah” has come.
Remember Elisha’s request for a “double portion” of the same Spirit. (2 Kings 2) We also know that Elisha died.
Now I do not know what rules apply, but John the Baptist had the Spirit of Elijah residing in him. Just as Elisha received a double portion of that same Spirit.
Re: Stephen, there was definitely something unique about his Spirit.
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then some of those who belonged to the synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called), and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of those from Cilicia and Asia, rose up and disputed with Stephen. 10 But they could not withstand the wisdom and the Spirit with which he was speaking….15 And gazing at him, all who sat in the council saw that his face was like the face of an angel. (Acts 6) Does that mean he had the Spirit of Enoch? I do not think that there is anyway to prove that from the Word of God….Like I said, that is a theory I have heard from others.
Morning Dru,
I would have to disagree in that, Jesus words show that it was John the Baptist that Jesus was speaking about metaphorically.
“The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things.But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist’ ”
When Jesus says, “they did not recognize him” it was because from Scripture in Mal.4:5 they were literally expecting Elijah to show up. However, the Elijah that was to come, was speaking of John the Baptist as a type of Elijah. Even the disciples realized that Jesus was speaking metaphorically of John the Baptist when the verse says,
“Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist’
This anticipation of Elijah comes from Malachi 4:5 –
“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”
In relation to this Jesus says,
“But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished.”
John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah (not literally) which is why they did not recognize him. The reference to “they have done to him everything they wished” was speaking of John being imprisoned and beheaded.
Dru,
You said:
“And gazing at him, all who sat in the council saw that his face was like the face of an angel. (Acts 6) Does that mean he had the Spirit of Enoch? I do not think that there is anyway to prove that from the Word of God….Like I said, that is a theory I have heard from others.”
This comparison between Enoch and Stephen is not a good example and that because Enoch is not mentioned anywhere in the verse and so to infer that Stephan is a type of Enoch would be purely conjecture. The Scripture regarding Elijah, has both Elijah and John the Baptist and we have the disciples recognizing that the Elijah that Jesus was speaking of was John the Baptist as type of Elijah.
Hi Don,
I think what we are discussing is the same thing. I say the Spirit of Elijah was in John the Baptist. I was hoping to direct you to Elisha to show how he got the Spirit of Elijah….a double portion thereof. In other words John the Baptist was John the Baptist with the Spirit of Elijah Upon him. As one of the two witnesses, we will have Elijah Bodily, with the Spirit of Elijah. A Spirit lives forever, though the Spirit faced death, he did not die. Much Like the Spirit of the Lord rested on Jesus, and faced death with him, and then Left him as he died.
As for Stephen, Like I said, that is something I heard from others, and cannot be substantiated with Scripture. There was definitely something unique about the Spirit in Stephen, as per the scripture I pointed out. And his testimony in front of everyone is one of the most Spirit filled speeches in the Bible.
As a side question, what is it that distinguishes the “Spirit of Elijah” from the Holy Spirit in a Christian? What is it that makes this Spirit unique so as to give it a unique name?
why are we talking about this? what was original argument?
did they die. their physical flesh and blood bodies surly died. for christ himself stated; flesh and blood cannot einherint the kingdom of god,yes enoch was not for god took him.but the fleshly body enoch had was removed when god took him. it had to ore jesus would be a liar.
Hi Johnwaltz,
To be clear, there is nothing in the Scripture regarding Enoch nor Elijah that would infer that their flesh had died. For regarding Elijah all the Scripture says about this event is that Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. Regarding Enoch Scripture says that Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away. Therefore, it would be pure assumption to say that either of them had died a physical death. For all we know they are still alive today. That being the case, I suppose that at some point, both Enoch and Elijah will experience physical death. In fact, they may be the two witnesses of Revelation who prophecy for that 1260 days (3 1/2 years). Then 3 1/2 days later they will be resurrected and taken back up to heaven. It is possible that God has saved the positions of the two witnesses specifically for them.
jesus said; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god. that means we will have a spiritual body. not a body that has blood within it. there would be no reason for us which go to heaven to have this exact body we have now in fact that is exactly why jesus stated ; flesh and blood cannot inherit (go to) the kingdom of god. this is very basic beginner christian understanding, there is no deep meaning to this. what did jesus say; no man has ever seen god, i have proclaimed him, what i do is because i have seen my father do.
Johnwaltz,
Just because they were taken up into heaven in their mortal bodies doesn’t constitute them as inheriting the kingdom of God. As I said, God may have taken them for the sole purpose of using them as the two witnesses in the last days. After that 3 1/2 days of lying the streets of Jerusalem, they will then be resurrected. Then what was said regarding “flesh and blood not inheriting the kingdom of God” will be fulfilled regarding themselves. Not only that, but have you Paul also making the claim that Enoch did not die a physical death when he was taken by God.
“By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: ‘He could not be found, because God had taken him away.’ ”
(See Heb.11:5)
Johnwaltz,
By the way regarding “no man has ever seen God.”
“At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne. ”
“He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.”
Since Jesus (the Lamb) is the one taking the scroll from the right hand of him who sits on the throne, then God the Father must be the one who John is seeing sitting on the throne. Would you agree?
“They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
in the Scripture above, there are two persons mentioned. We know that Lamb refers to Jesus and therefore, the One who is sitting on the throne that they want their faces hidden from must necessarily be God the Father whom they are seeing. This event of course is still future.
Isaiah says:
“Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.” (Isa.6:5)
Hmmmm ……
Daniel says:
“As I looked, “thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.”
In the verse above, Daniel sees in his vision the ancient of days sitting on his throne and the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven. The reference to the “Son of Man” would be to Jesus, which would make the Ancient of days sitting on the throne, God the Father.
Just some food for thought.
Regarding “No man has seen God”
Here another Scripture to take into consideration:
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Just sayin’
Hi Beacon,
If I may I’ll address your question.“Did Enoch and Elijah die”?
The first thing that I would like for you to consider is that within the generations of Adam, (Genesis 5:1 through verse 32) that the Hebrew “מוּת” or “muwth” is utilized a total of of 8 times.
“Muwth” is primarily defined as meaning, “to die, or kill”.
This is why it has been translated into the English “and he died” within those 8 instances of Genesis 5:5, 5:8, 5:11, 5:14, 5:17, 5:20, 5:27 and 5:31.
The exception to this “and he died” in respects to the Patriarchs, would be regarding Enoch.
This would suggest and indicate that something different than simply dying took place regarding Enoch.
In Genesis 5:24., it reads;
“And Enoch “walked” with God: and he was not; for God “took” him.”
The translated English “walked” above is derived from the Hebrew “הָלַךְ”, or “halak” and it is primarily defined as meaning to “to go, walk, and come”.
Though within it’s definitions it also has the meaning “to die”, the very fact that a different word was utilized within 5:24. regarding Enoch, more than suggests that “he didn’t die” exactly as the others had.
The English “took” within verse 5:24. is derived from the Hebrew “לָקַח” or “laqach” and it is primarily defined as “to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, and take away”
Laqach would be the equivalent of the Greek “ἁρπάζω” or “harpazō”.
In Hebrews 11:5., it states;
“By faith Enoch was “translated” that HE SHOULD NOT SEE DEATH; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
The English word “translated” above is derived from the Greek “μετατίθημι” or “metatithēmi”, and it is defined as “to transpose (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) (a) to transfer. (b) to change. (c) to transfer one’s self or suffer one’s self to be transferred. to go or pass over”
And this “metatithēmi”may more clearly define what occurred.
Clearly Hebrews 11:15. states that Enoch “did not die”, however Hebrews 11:13., states that they did?
“THESE ALL DIED IN FAITH, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.”
So perhaps with Enoch he did not “die a regular death” but was “changed and transformed” where (two things, one of which is put in place of the other) prior to being taken.
Regarding Elijah,
In 2 Kings 2:1. it says;
“And it came to pass, when the LORD “would take up” Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.”
The English “would take up” is from the Hebrew “עָלָה” or “’alah” which means, “to go up, and ascend”
In 2 Kings 2:3., we have the Hebrew “laqach” again with the translated English in quotations below.
“And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will “take away” thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.”
In 2 Kings 2:11. it says;
“And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and “parted” them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”
The English “parted” above is derived from the Hebrew “פָּרַד” or “parad” and is simply defined as “to separate, or divide”.
So I think that there is the possibility that God had “changed both Enoch and Elijah” prior to being “translated”, that in one way they both did “die of the flesh”, but were changed and “born of Spirit”.
I think that bot of them were an Old Covenant foreshadowing of Yeshua, and as well, a foreshadowing of the church.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
Good day all,
My personal purpose for many of the responses that I have made here on this site have been to contend for the truth and accuracy of God’s word, which is what we as believers, among many things, are called to do. The world is inundated with false teachers and false teachings and will continue to be so until the end. By immersing ourselves in God’s word and in prayer, we should be able to discern those who are false. Not everyone who claims Jesus belongs to Jesus, nor are they all my brothers and sisters. As an example, when someone makes it known to me that Jesus’ resurrection was spiritual and not bodily, then I contend for the truth, for they are peaching a different gospel and they are denying the Lord who bought them. When someone makes it known to me that Paul is a false apostle and a liar, then I contend for the truth of God’s word, for they themselves are the liars. When someone teaches that the shed blood of Christ alone will not save me and that I must keep the law of Moses or else I am condemned, then I contend for the truth and accuracy of God’s word, for the law brings wrath and I am not under the law, but am free in Christ. When I see the main-line churches embracing same-sex life styles and that, all in the name of and in the love of God, then I contend for the truth, because they are deceiving themselves and others by justifying and embracing their sins instead of repenting.
It is not a matter of needing to repent as Dru stated, for my heart and spirit are always in a state of self examination and repentance, as it should be with every believer. It is deviation, distortion, circumvention and not adhering to Scripture that I am zealous about and for which I contend against. I am grieved in the Spirit to see so much deviation from the truth. But the truth be told, God’s word prophesied of this saying that, “the days are coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine,” and that is exactly what is and has been happening. That being said, we should not be turning to videos, books, men’s seminar’s and websites to learn or to present the truth, but we should always be directed to God’s word as the basis for all truth.
It is not a matter of not loving those who belong to Christ, God knows I do. But if anyone’s teachings distort or circumvent the word of God and they continue in that spirit, then even though they say they are in Christ, to me they are not. It is true regarding God, that there is much more knowledge than what is contained in the Holy Scriptures and I am sure that we will be enlightened later, even finding out what the seven thunders uttered. But as for the Scriptures that God has given to us, we can wholeheartedly trust in them as unchanging, for if they did, then we could not trust in them. When Paul said that the Berean’s were more noble than the Thessalonians, it was because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was teaching was the truth, which means that they would have had to compare the prophecies and teachings regarding Christ and God’s word to what Paul was teaching and that is what we should also be grounded in. Just as we can have faith in the information contained in the OT, so also can we put our faith in the information contained in the NT as the inerrant word of God and that because All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Therefore, when I see these posts which are not in line with Scripture, but are fantasies, I teach, rebuke, correct and contend for the truth of God’s word.
I’ve said it before, a good rule of thumb when studying the word of God, is if the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. When people fail to put this principal into practice, they instead apply symbolic, spiritual or mythical meanings to what God meant to be read as literal. And those that God did intent to be read as symbolic, they apply their own symbolic meaning to instead of the one God provided in his word.
My true prayer is that everyone would truly love one another, and that without division of the truth of Scripture.
Always in Christ
Don,
Good comment. A side of you I have not seen before.
I will ask you this one question. Do you, or your denomination, or your beliefs consist of all of the Truth? By that I mean, could all your berrean searching of scripture, and study leave out essential Truths of the Bible that were given to others of the faith?
Consider the following verses:
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
So to someone who is given the gift of Wisdom, may not have the gift of healing. Now the one with the gift of wisdom will not be so wise as to know how to heal, but he may be able to discern that the person with the gift of healing is of the same Spirit as he is. But if that person with the gift of wisdom believes that he knows it all, (pride), sees someone healing a sick person by a different method than is written of in the bible, he may judge him as a charlatan or a false teacher.
When we understand, that though we all have the Same Holy Spirit in us, but some are given different gifts, then we are quick not to dismiss their teaching and work as false until we have tested the Spirit in them.
In revelation, we are introduced to seven Spirits of God, which are distributed among the seven churches. Is it possible, that each of these churches holds a part of those gifts, and they have built a whole belief system around that? But it is not until the end times that they are brought together and united as the Body Of Christ. Consider the following verses in regards to this:
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Eph. 4)
Is this not a promise worth striving for? You as one opposed to false teaching should agree, as this unity will enable the church to not be “tossed to and fro” by false teaching?
God Bless.
Gregg Buckley – I enjoyed your post very much. I absolutely agree with you. l have studied these things in depth at one time or another in my life. Translated can also just mean as Phillip was translated to another place. I could say God took him to another place. But never left the earth. Same as in Noah’s day. They were translated from one place to another. From one age to another Age even in Noah’s case. You might want to check out St. Jn. 10:10-12 The devil even has a rapture – harpazō in Ver. 12 the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep by an en gathering of evil.
I do appreciate the simplicity that was in your post as well. It was direct and to the point.
And also beware of people that have 2 and 3 different names on this post but are the same person. They do try and trick you like the Pharisee’s tried to trick Jesus and get him to stumble. Just want you to know that. Maybe you have already caught on to it.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua as well.
Beacon
Hi Beacon,
I am glad that you enjoyed my post and that it may have provided some clarity regarding what happened to Enoch and Elijah, and that it also may have cleared up what appears to be a direct contradiction within Hebrews 11:5. & 11:13.
This clarity was provided by the definition of the transliterated Greek “metatithēmi”, that both Enoch and Elijah were “changed and transposed, placing one of which is put in place of the other”.
However, it is my opinion that “context” must be maintained within Scripture and that the applicable and appropriate definitions be utilized to understand correctly what is being expressed.
What satan did by scattering the disciples was not the same as what happened to Enoch and Elijah in “a moment, in a twinkling of an eye”.
You also say above, “And also beware of people that have 2 and 3 different names on this post but are the same person.”
Thanks for the warning Tom, but I’m already aware that this happens.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
Who would you be referring to Beacon?
Bro. Gregg Buckley – On the subject of the “gathering” of the Wheat and the Tares – I was talking about the 2nd. Coming of Christ. As their are Wheat and their are Tares. Satan gathering his people — And God gathering His People.
Satan’s “rapture takes his subjects into the deeper dimension’s” of the kingdom of the World’s evil till they become in the likeness of the “Image of the Beast that is within. Worshiping the “unholy spirit of mankinds” imaginations.
At the same time through the whole of the N.T church. 1st Century to Now.
Christ’s been Enrapturing His subjects into the “Kingdom of God”. The Holy Spirit.
In the O.T Gods Spirit did the same thing. = Gods Spirit is the Holy Spirit.
I believe that is what happen to Enoch, Elijah, Moses, etc. The Bible says it was Christ that was in Moses. To me those in Heb.11 that “the world was not even worthy of”. Had faith to reach beyond their day and Message to receive their Power of the “Kingdom of God” which is receiving the Holy Ghost. Which is a complete different dimension of existence. Church means “called out”.
God actually “came down in Moses day to the people”. To “Gather them” and through Moses received the Word of God. It was Christ that was the Cloud by day and the fire by night. Thee covenant Angel. Was with Moses all the way.
God called them out of the slavery of sin and death while in Egypt. That was an “Exodus” calling out the elect bride from the church that died in the wilderness of unbelief. The had the Blood applied, The Word Given, then Joshua = same name as Jesus set them in heavenly places = the “land of milk and honey the “Promised land” that God gave them. Paul’s epistle of Ephesians parallels the Exodus. The placing of Son’s. Joshua did that and they eventually became and “Overcome” all their enemies ending in Davids victorious battles and creating Solomon’s land of Milk and Honey. The people finally had their Promise fulfilled that God told them to do. Such a magnificent Kingdom with Gold laden Temple doors etc. Etc. Those Golden years were a type of the Millennium of Peace that Jesus Christ brought to the Gentiles also. That so many seek today. But think it is all in the future. The lord told me years ago to preach and teach a NOW message. I’m doing my best.
I
Lord bless – Beacon
david – dru —- you tell me. Their use to be a man named “Alienated” I imagine you remember. Then he used various different names. And it ended with him being about 3 or 4 different people at the same time. then Called David. His picture is still on here now as dmcal –
Ps cant trust nobody in these days can you. Have a good day.
Beacon
beacon
alienated was not david and is not dmcal
Hi Beacon, (Tom),
I happen to know alienated, Contender, “Gregg and Buck” fairly well.
As a matter of fact, I’m pretty sure that all of them are me?
I have not returned to argue with you, or anyone for that matter… so you can relax.
I’m not sure as to why I have returned, or what the purpose of doing so is?
You and I would still disagree on many things, but as I said I’m not here to argue.
I had just posted my opinion regarding what had happened to Enoch and Elijah based upon the definitions of specific words with the hopes of clearing up what appears to be a contradiction.
So carry on believing what you wish to believe, I will leave the rebuttal’s to those that feel led to do so.
Be Blessed “in” Yeshua.
To the impostor: Greg, dmcal, alienated, john, buckley, contender.
So are you really proud of yourself now. Acting as someone who you are not. Writing yourself a post. I guess you think that is funny. Well it’s almost at the point of Blasphemy against me and the Christ that lives in me. I have never done you any wrong. I just do not believe like you do. And you just cannot seem to stand it. Its like the Pharisee’s actually plugged up their years and screamed at our Lord. They could not stand to hear the Word. They called him names, sinned against HIM etc. That makes it personal to God and the Son. Unless you get right you will laugh you last laugh at the gates of hell. Jesus was no joker, or deviant. Hope you repent.
I hope that Dru is an honest sincere brother whether we see eye to eye or not – makes no different. I still am having a very lonely life with my wife at my side. Been 4-1/2 years now being a Caretaker for her. I try to find a sincere people. But that’s hard to find in this generation. Unless I go through the “Wide Gate” with you. Which I do not plan to do. You sin against someone you have to make it right with that someone. Not just ask Jesus to forgive you. Take a study on that and send it to yourself.
Beacon
beacon
I think you are tired. read my latest reply to you.
Tom, may I ask you something…. Why are you calling yourself Beacon now?
Most of the people that have been here for a period of time, (over 4 years ago now) have known that I started with my nick name “Buck”, after an unfortunate misunderstanding with a female participant here I changed my name to “alienated”. At times I used my given name Gregg and during the last time before I left, I changed it to Contender.
Each person that I was having discussions with knew who I was, because the gravatar remained the same.
And even if the gravatar were to be different most people recognize who they are having a discussion with, based upon what they say and how they express themselves.
This is how I knew that though you are calling yourself Beacon now, that you are still Tom York.
So you are actually accusing me of something that you have done yourself.
And I can assure you that I haven’t written a post and then responded to it myself as a different name or individual. That would indeed be sad, to be burdened with the need for that much affirmation that one would actually do that.
The rest of what you have to say I will disregard, and will instead wish you peace and the strength of the Lord as you deal with the unfortunate circumstance in respects to your wife.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
Ooop’s Tom,
I had forgotten one above…..
I used to also go by “Accepted” too.
(I think it was DJ that suggested that one?)
Just wanted to be transparent there, and lay them all out for you.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua
My computer went down and I had to change companies and thats why I just changed it then. Most everybody else had a nickname . So I went with Beacon. – Now that is said. I never was on here with 2 or 3 names at the same time. Makes no sense unless you got something else in mind.
Beacon
Hi Beacon,
I assure you that I have never come on this post as anything other than either dmcal or dmcal52. In any case, the dmcal part has remained the same. I have never come here to disguise myself. If my name appeared different from the two above, it was because I forgot which one I used or I was responding from my place of work. Just thought you might like to know.
Beacon, I can assure you I am not Dmcal, or Alienated.
Marianne you the boss – why would you let one man become 3 or 4 people on here especially at the same time. Unless it is to protect you and what you all believe. Which if so. You must be really unstable. Makes not sense at all. Unless its just to bully people or make fun of them and try to confuse.
Do you think Jesus thought it a joke that Pharisee’s was always trying to stumble him up with a lot of words just to just accuse Him. Unless those men got right with Him I would not want to have been anyone of them. Son’s of perdition. It is a deceiving character to say the least.
And also what is wrong with a post that everybody abandoned and a couple Christians just want to discuss a certain doctrine – I was trying to enjoy some fellowship with John 777 and Dmcal which i did not know till I seen the same picture that he use to use. That I saw over a year ago.
I hope you can be honest that Dru is who he is. I dont take this as funny. But as a sad, sad, thing that Christians would want to play games with Gods word.
Its pitiful and childishness for grownups to act like that. Please help this forum in Jesus name.
Beacon –
beacon
I am the administrator here, and I know everyone. I can assure you that one person has not become 3-4 people.
there is one case where someone changed his name once because a run in with a female with a bad temper…..that was self defense and also reflected how he felt at the time…however, he did not hide who he still was.
if there is something wrong with my post, “are you empty enough” you will have to point it out to me…
I do my best to be accurate, and to express what I think is true….if you are referring to a posted comment you made…I do not have any thoughts on that……
it is my observation that LONG comments get ignored, but shorter ones get more responses….
.i tell everyone to try to keep things short, but sometimes they get long winded….in this case, their comment may seem to be “abandoned” because no one else want to read something that long.
people here are very convicted as to what they believe.
and there are differences of opinion.
so I can tell you as I tell others…..
use this format.
disagree if you need to. but don’t get personal
say “I disagree because……” then state a reason why and give a scripture to back it up.
I take the position that people have a right to be wrong, as long as they are seeking the truth….I feel they will eventually find out the truth as they sort out their thoughts and discuss them with others.
dmcal has always used the same gravatar. John had some issues with his but they straightened out on their own…..
the design gravatars are randomly assigned to people if they do not have a personalized one..
.it is possible for 2 people to have the same one, if the gravatars have recycled around and the same ones are being used for a different group of people.
I hope this helps to clear some things up for you.
blessings
Wow, I go away for a few days and people seem to be throwing sand around – people calling other people “unstable” – at least the sand box is being emptied but, I thought it was we who were to empty ourselves:
“We are so busy serving God, that we don’t have time to know Him. How empty are we, of our concerns, schedules, interests, and other people, that we have room in our day to spend alone with God?”
“How badly do we want to know God?”
“Or is He just convenient to us when we have a prayer need?”
“Or is He just “someone out there” to pray to?”
“Do we just shoot off a one minute prayer to him at the end of the day?”
yep . . . . . . here comes another bucket . . . . . .
thanks denise… looks like you are s till focused on the page’s topic.
god bless you
Yes Denise let us try and return this to the topic at hand.
Here is a video by Carter Conlon dealing with the topic of emptying yourself, and putting to death the flesh. “If You are making promises to God you are going to fail. But if you are living by the promises of God to you, you are going to be able to finish the journey” Difference between being led by human will (Approx 23:00 minute mark)
Oops sorry wrong video.
Here we go, accidentally copied a channel on youtube, went to top of playlist.
Oh, and Buck, You may want to watch this video, before you go and accuse someone of being self righteous, whose spirit has been broken by the Lord.
dru
You are accusing by insinuation again. just a note a caution. do not assume that you are the ONLY one whose spirit has been broken. let that be between the person and god.
Hi Marianne,
That is a new one? accusation by insinuation.?
Here are Buck’s words from above:
“Frankly dru, you are the most self-righteous individual that I’ve ever had the misfortune of engaging with here.
(Which has been the reason behind your numerous banning’s from this site.)”
No insinuation there. I merely stated fact. within the video, is my vindication. You should be fully aware that any righteousness I proclaim is through the Work Of the Holy Spirit in me, Not of my flesh. For an act to be self righteous, it must be an act of the flesh. This is, as you say, an academic discussion/defense, not an accusation. (“I disagree because”)
That is what I have stated over and over again when I have been here. Nonetheless, I am accused of self righteousness. I am merely proclaiming the Power of God to change a person. This change comes when we stop trying to please God and surrender the Human will and striving. By this surrender, HE has overcome. This is righteousness by faith, because it takes faith In God, and his Spirit in us to make that surrender. Thus it is no longer I who live, It is Christ who lives in me! This is the opposite of boasting in your own works.
It is like the whole Sabbath debate, vs Entering God’s resting place. (Hebrews 4) One strives in the flesh, The other surrenders the will and fleshly striving.
This is so counterintuitive to Judaism (Legalistic obedience) and Logic, and that is why I have stood against any who have tried to force fleshly obedience of the Law (the true definition of self righteousness), as well as strict literalist mind understanding of the Word of God. To the contrary, this is about getting to know (intimately and relationally) the God of the Word. Like a wife submits to the husband, trusting that he will love her and do what is best in her life.
How is that for “staying on topic”?
well you ARE acting that way…do no be judge and jury here….
you know I do not want personal remarks here…but if you start something, then expect some feedback…
so leave Buck alone
20 month old Christian child imprisoned in Sudan!!!!!
Come Lord Jesus Come!!!
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/state-dept-won-t-say-if-christian-toddler-jailed-sudan-us-citizen-1
just a general note here….discussion is good, debate is ok, arguments that get personal are not ok..
remember…..
Blowing out someone else’s candle does not make you shine any brighter
To all on this site:
I want to remind all of you, of the dream of a city that I posted on the other page. Buck says he did not know why he came back to this site, the answer is in the last line of this dream. As I said, this dream is of THIS CHURCH. I have a time stamp on my email for this, and that I wrote it as I awoke. Everything about this dream has proved true.
The Youthfullness at the beginning indicates my naivette and immaturity when I first came here. The illusion of beauty is the apparent Christianity of this site. When I broke the glass, is the exposure that I brought to the site. But no one saw it and my disappearance was my being banned from this site. Though I disappeared, I never left the site (Hiding in the underside of the decrepid bridge) The Old friend, is Buck, And Now is the time that I reappeared to Buck, who was still admiring the beauty of this city.
I will post the dream here, again….
====================================
Dream of a city, where and when it began: 40th day of the Omer/ ascension day 2013.
A dream 5/4-5/5 2013 @ 1:40 am
I saw a child win a painting competition and the painting was praised as a masterpiece, and this child as a prodigy. The child was female.
The painting was enshrined in a museum, because of the praise it received.
I as a child then myself, saw the painting as Baseless, meaningless, and ugly. I was largely alone in this perception.
Sometime later, as an adult, I came back to that city. The city had become highly advanced, and everything seemed perfect. All the people were in shells of security, order abounded, and peaceful. Yet to me it was a lifeless and dead world. All throughout the city, there were multitudes of people with cameras taking pictures of this city, as tourists, and they were all awestruck at how beautiful this city was.
This world and the painting of the child were tied together, and I knew that I had to go and see this painting that the child had made again. I needed to see it, in order to understand this world, and what was missing from peoples perceptions. I went to an old friend from my childhood who still lived in that city, and explained to him my dillema, and he agreed to take me to see that painting in the local museum in which it hung behind glass. The painting was esteemed as an ideal image of the world. In fact it was idolized in a way. But the glass behind which it hung distorted this image, and made it look more appealing than I had remembered it as a child. I said to my friend “this is not the same ugly image I remember as a child.” I then proceeded to break the glass that was covering and distorting the painting, and lo and behold, there was this same ugly painting behind the glass that I remembered as a child. My friend did not see it that way. The glass was a facade to cover and beautify the painting so that it would even appear as beautiful in the eyes of the wise.
My “friend” however, did not see, and in turn betrayed me and called for security. I took off running. As I ran, the facade of beauty around this city was becoming shattered. Ugliness became visible again. Homeless people appeared as if out of thin air, poverty, filth, prostitution, slave labor….etc. Most of the poor and homeless saw what I saw, but others continued about snapping pictures and commenting how beautiful it was in that city. I stopped and talked to one homeless person, living in a shantytown, and he said to me that all of a sudden, these deep dark woods and polluted streams became visible to them. I looked at those woods he was referring to, and I could see all kinds of vile creatures coming out of them, Hybrids and mutations of animals that looked vaguely familiar, yet were unclean and despicable. It was as if the world of the demonic had now become visible to some.
The leader of this city was revealed to me as well, as an ugly beastly man. he had a beloved assistant who ruled with him who was small in stature and very annoying. There in his prescence I saw my friend who had betrayed me explaining what had happened to this leader. I was running and hiding from his police officers, who could not find me. (for some reason I do not think they could even see me).
Some time passed, days, weeks? I am unsure. But I found myself in hiding under an old decrepid metal bridge. I was peering through the rusty latticework, when I spotted my friend and several of his buddies with cameras in hand, snapping pictures and being awestruck by the beauty of their citiy. What they were taking pictures of was filth, rust, pollution and scavenging creatures.
I came out from my hiding spot to confront my friend again, and he was stunned to see me, almost as if I appeared out of thin air….At this point I awoke from my sleep.
The City, is the church…..THIS CHURCH!!!
God bless….repent….find Jesus, get to know him. I am nothing, He is everything. All glory to God.
==============================================
I do not know the outcome of this last encounter as I awoke at that point. I do know that this dream was from God, and that as I wrote it down, in the wee hours of the morning, the Holy Spirit gave me recall of all the details of the dream. For a long time, I thought this was a dream of the western church in general, which in many ways it is, but it has these personal aspect which came to my understanding only when I posted the dream on the other page.
So Buck, I came back here for you….like it or Not. The same way you were led to come back here as well. The choice of what you do is in your hands. I came back, with the Power of the Lord behind me. I come here with the calling of Jude: “21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to eternal life. 22 And have mercy on those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.”
I came back here for you and the friends of yours who are still taking pictures, and see only the Beauty of this city. I do not know the outcome, but I do know that all the harm you seek to cause me is done with this delusion in mind. It is not me who is trying to reach you though, as it is not I who live, it is Christ who lives in me. It is he, who is knocking at the door to your heart. Will you let him in???
In Jesus name, Silence………
[img]http://swagct.com/uploads/2012/09/1_1348968965.jpg[/img]
just trying something?
Did not work
David,
Well I’m not Joseph so I’m not going to apply what could be an alternative interpretation to your dream, however I can point out one very important aspect that is wrong with your personal interpretation regarding it.
“YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SENT HERE FOR ME!”
I have stated this over and over to you and you simply disregard what I have said and continue on and on and on.
“Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, God the Father in the flesh is my Holy Savior and Redeemer!
He is my Everything. I place no trust in anything but Him for Salvation.
He is the only “Way, Truth and Life”
I was unworthy of His death for me on that Cross, and was guilty of pounding those nails into His flesh myself with my sins, yet He still chose to die for me, and I treasure Him for that.
I could never earn what He has provided and offered freely to me, (to us), and I am well aware that in all of eternity, I will also never be able to fully repay Him for that Gift.
I could go on and on expressing my undying and surrendered Love for Him and all that He means to me, for your sake, But He knows my Love for Him.
It is between Him and I.
There is no need for you to be involved whatsoever.
It’s a finished work that He has accomplished all on His own.
He is alone is Sufficient!”
Amen and Amen.
Do you get that?
Can you move forward now?
David,
So let me get this straight….
What you are saying is that, “I came here so that you could tell me to leave here?”
And if while I am here, I happen to speak what I perceive within my heart to be God’s Truth, He is going to judge me for that?
Dude your simply delusional.
I will “NOT” fall away, and God always places His people within the midst and very centers of each Babylon to speak His truth.
Romans 10:14,15.;
“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!”
I am going to leave, but not in response to any accusation or thing that you have said based upon your own distorted views.
But simply because you’re driving me nuts.
To everyone else here, Be blessed in the Grace of Yeshua for He is your Everything.
Amen.
If the Father had sent me back here to impart a edifying word for others and you became the stumbling stone regarding that, well I pray that He forgives you, because I don’t believe that you can help yourself.
do not worry. I have a delete button
dru
you need to stop attacking buck
Are we all empty enough, now?
Hi Denise,
Soon I will be washing my hands clean of this city, Then everyone here can go back to snapping pictures. Right now the Lighting is off as there is too much glare. When I am gone, then the pictures will look better. Do not mistake my boldness in Christ Jesus for cockiness or pride. Think of it as a Fire.
I do not know you personally, but if the Spirit of the Lord is in You, you will be able to answer the following. What is the best way to hide sin from others?
be careful how you exalt yourself
You ask: “What is the best way to hide sin from others?”
The simple answer is that the hypocrite is the man who hides his own sin, not the one who conceals the errors of others. At His trial Jesus did not open His mouth. He accused no one. He left such necessity up to the Word of God. For, It is by the Word of God that we all shall be judged.
What are the unseen reasons which cause men to feel compelled to ridicule, expose the sins of others, and denigrate? Could it be that a sense of superiority dominates their thinking? Surely, in their own minds they feel they have not committed sins nearly as heinous as those they are exposing. Arbitrarily they categorize the laws of God. And they determine the degrees and magnitudes of sin. They believe the sins committed by others are of much greater magnitude than are those committed by themselves—if they admit to any sin at all.
Is it possible that men censure, ridicule, and show contempt for others to cover their own guilt? There is no man who does not sin. The hypocrite is the man who hides his own sin, not the one who conceals the errors of others.
Psalms 32: Happy is the person whose sins are forgiven, who wrongs are pardoned; (2) Happy is the person whom the Lord does not consider guilty, in that person there is nothing false. (3) When I kept things to myself, I felt weak deep inside me, I moaned all day long. (4) Day and night you punished me, My strength was gone as in the summer heat. (5) Then I confess my sins to you, I didn’t hide my guilt, I said, “I will confess my sins to the Lord.”
Not sure this answers your question, but it answers mine.
good point.
I am thinking of doing a post on “Forget yourself”
I would like to use some of your comment for its content, if that is ok with you….(giving you credit)
Of course, Marianne. I figure anything spoken here is spoken publicly.
Close, on your third paragraph,
The one who wishes to hide is sin is likely to be the most outspoken critic of that sin. Do you remember the preacher who was an outspoken critic of homosexuality? Turns out he was living the lifestyle.
Good question “Dru” – Good post – could not of said it better. Jesus rebuked people cause HE had to. When in the face of a devil that is trying to tear you down and the truth along with it is what Christians do. Rebuke out of Love for the person. As a Parent rebukes their children they love.
Keep the faith. Beacon
Greg,
Bummer.
Maybe after a a few days or a couple of weeks you’ll notice a change within HA and return. It may not be long. Pic a new name and attach a pic, pressing upward.
Confession time: I did change my picture once.
At first my name was associated with a pic of Louie – a cute, white French Bulldog. Then. after awhile, the pic of Louie seemed silly and not appropriate for discussions and posts regarding Scriptures and spiritual matters.
Blessings
Psalm 25
The enemy-deceiver of the brethren has done his work well. Serious debate and discussion has given way to pettiness and self indulgence. And the beat goes on……….
dru
contact me by email, and we can continue this discussion off line.
this is not going in the appropriate direction
Dru,
The one who publicly took offence, is the one my comment was meant for!
Shalom
really, gentelmen, going back and forth about these subjects, and trying to tear down each other is not what god or our lord would wish us to do. we all have our fualts but this discussion going back and forth with 3 of you is not doing anyone but the devil any good. i cannot tell anyone what to do but i can read these posts the last couple of days and am consirned .
amen
it will get better starting tonight…
I was away today with a friend who had an attack of kidney stones…..long day…..
so I could not catch this right away…….
I continue to work toward my goal of making the word of god something inspiring and an exciting adventure into deeper revelations…
if people could just focus on god and his glory and how awesome he is, they would forget who they were to themselves, and all the stress would stop
I think that would make a good post..
“forget who you are….”
“And how shall they believe in HIM of whom they have not heard?
This is all I have ever tried to do on this forum. Is to help people see things that I had never seen or realized in my first 10 to 12 years of being a Christian in a Pentecostal church.
When you have tasted of the “Mystery of God” its just like getting Born again. And you just cannot contain the excitement of the truth. No longer did I have to hear singing for an hour to feel God and get excited. I can do it just studying the great mysteries that God died to give His Bride. That most that are compacent do not want to trouble with it. But that is sad way to be.
If you are a child of God by birth of His Spirit sooner or later you have to cross the great divide rightly dividing the Truth.
There has been some on here that the Message of the deeper life has attracted. And when that happen’s to a believer. They will never be satisfied until they understand the Message for this hour. Its not for everyone to know. Some are called to the deeper life. Their are different administration of callings in the Body of Christ. Everyone is not to be a great prophet. But some are to sing, and minister to others with the gifts and callings. But lets not throw out the Deeper Mysteries of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. As Marianne said and it is truth. Many people are afraid of the deeper revelation. It makes them feel unstable.
Acts 20: 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
ACTS 20:27 For I have not shunned to “”(declare unto you all the counsel of God. “”) Paul also suffered for his Message. Even unto death.
Also Paul’s writing below
Heb. 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Heb. 5:12- For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb. 5:13- For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb. 5:14- (But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Peter talking to about Pauls Message:
3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some (things hard to be understood,) which they (that are unlearned and unstable wrest,) as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Seems to me we as believers should all want to know more about Jesus Christ. But our Pastors have to teach the same as Paul and Disciples but then again that was the problem with Israel’s generation. Every man did what was right in his own eyes. That is our generation today.
Yes indeed its a battle. But it can save your life and save you from error that as Paul said would destroy you.
Jesus picked 12 disciples that would really labor in the Word.
What is wrong with America today is that it has been “evangelized” TO DEATH. By the simple gospel. To fill their church’s. That was good in 1906 to the end of 60’s. But it will not due in this last age of Laodicea. Young people want answer’s. Middle age wants answer’s. Old people are still to complacent.
Beacon
thank you beacon….
this whole website’s purpose is to explore the deeper things in the Word of god…to come closer to god through his truth.
the hope is that people become excited by personal revelations that touch the soul, finding out that the word is ALIVE….in them
thank you Marianne as well. Lord bless you
Beacon
i have a question that is off subject but several years ago a few of my fellow christian friends got into a discussion about. this is a what if question; the topic is sucuide. now we all know that you can’t take your own life under normal conditions such as being depressed, left out of being in the croud of friends (like at school) etc. but would god hold you accountable for killing yourself under the following conditions; lets say you are 500 miles from any person,town, etc. you fell of a rock cliff you were climbing, you have broken your pelvis, one arm and both legs. you are in physical pain that is unbearable, you have a gun, you cannot move because of your severe injuries, you have no cellphone, you know that no one is comming to find you. let me make this clear; we are not talking about mental pain, or one of those things in which we here why people have taken their own life. when they had access to people etc. what do you think god would say to you if you were in the condition which i mentioned above, the physical pain is unbearable, no one is comming to help you, you cannot even crawl, so you pray to god and jesus to understand what you are about to do, which is shoot yourself. (this is compleatly hypothetical question, but place yourself in this hypothetical situation) is this a mortal sin under these conditions?
john
I really don’t know…but it seems like under the circumstances, God would understand this and not hold it against the person.
but then there are suicides where the mental pain is unbearable also.
let us pray none of us are in that situation…..or maybe we should pray now and ask god what to do
don’t worry marianne, the question i posted is just one of those what if under such a situation would that be a sin. in that condition where you are in physicial pain and there would be no way for you to possibly receive help because you were hundred’s of miles from anyone and would have no hope of anyone finding you, etc, would god consider that taking your own life against gods own laws. i also think under the hypothetical condition god would not consider what you had no choice to do. this had nothing to do with me or anyone i know. it’s just one of those kinds of things you would question.
John – I don’t know that any one person can answer that for any one other person. I’ve always grown up with the belief that suicide is the greatest sin and a very selfish act.
Fortunately I have never been faced with needing to ask the question, what would God really think? I don’t even know that if that time ever came, that I could ever ask that of God. (Does that make any sense?)
I do know that – of all the astronauts that went up into space, each one was given a cyanide capsule (suicide capsule) for each of the them to choose to use for whatever unknown situation they might encounter that would be so horribly unbearable.
And – Every astronaut came back with their cyanide capsule.
If there is a certain “check out” rule that is allowed, I hope I never have to or want to use it.
denise; the subject was and is a hypothetical situation. many people thing if you kill yourself you are damned. however given the way i spoke to my christian friends years ago about absolutes. this was one that i beleive god would not consider unforgivable under the situation that i originally posted. astronouts would mearly run out of oxygen. that would be a quick and fairly painless death. so to kill yourself because you know you are going to run out of air or possibly burn up in re-entry is not a justifible reason to take your life. why, both would be over very quickly. their are several times a person can kill themselves and be justified by god; example a soilder jumps on a hand gernade to save his comrades. he gave his life to save others. a person see’s a child out in the street and a car is comming, the person knows that their would only be time to pick the child up and though it to safetyand an instant later the person dies from being hit by the car. but mainly my original post was for someone out in the wilderness with horrable injuries and knowing absolutly no ome is comming to their aid and the physicl pain cannot be stopped and the person will or would be screaming for hours and possibly days. so in that exact case i do not think god would punish the person nor would it actually be sucuide. we are not talking here about people who are made fun of, or a wife or husband that found their mate with another and it seems they cannot bear the mental pain, yes they can, yes that would hurt mentally but time would heal. we are not talking about someone who is depressed and thinks it would be better if they took their life. they have the ability to call or talk to someone. the hole point is ment to show that there are no absolutes in the area i brought up. and it has nothing to do with me or anyone around me. it is simple something i believe people don’t take into consideration. they simply say ; no one can kill themselves and go to heaven. the above original place where i started this thought is the answer to ; is their a real situation that could possibly take place that taking you life has no concenquences as far as where you will go after you die physically.
John – We may be on different “wave lengths” so to speak. I have been around a lot of death an dying, and suicide (having worked in law enforcment.) Suicide is usually never about dying, it is about ending the pain someone is in. Hence, a selfish act, to end one’s pain. The one who jumps on a grenade to save others in combat or the crossing guard who jumps in front of a moving car to toss a child out of the way is a heroic act – it is not about dying, it is about saving someone.
As for the astronauts, the cyanide pill is / was for those unforseen circumstances – yes, dying from lack of oxygen is slow and generally painless. Not so sure about burning up alive, but it too will be over. The pill they were given was for all those unforseen – taken captive, tortured, I don’t know – it is for those circumstances we can’t think of.
My fear about committing suicide is that I would have to come back and do it all over again – actually, it is that I would disappoint our Lord. It would mean, for me, that I have lost faith in Him. I don’t know what it means for others, I do not judge them.
a failed suicide is bad….it ruins you forever…you end up in a psych ward with people analyzing you and pumping pills into you….and you remain a freak to the outside world as well….and no one will hire you or marry you…. you will end up with nothing of value
Hi Denise,
If I may, I would like to make a comment regarding something that you had said above.
You said, “My fear about committing suicide is that I would have to come back and do it all over again.”
Hebrews 9:27, 28. states;
“And as it is appointed for “men to die once”, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
The Scripture above within that one sentence, should eliminate any thoughts regarding the possibility of reincarnation.
I can’t speak for others, their life experiences are relevant to them alone, and are between them and God the Father, but I can briefly speak of my own here.
Due to my own life experiences, in 1993 I had decided to take my own life. The depth of depression that I had found myself in was debilitating and had simply overwhelmed me. My prayers at the time to God were “that if I did actually follow through with my plans, and that if doing so it would be wrong, that God would somehow find it in His heart to forgive me for doing that”.
To make a long story short…. I’m obviously still here. lol.
God had different plans for me, and intervened beyond anything that I could describe here. But He didn’t do this by changing any of my life’s circumstances, but rather by changing the attitude of my heart. (In actuality, my life circumstances only continued to get worse. lol.)
Unfortunately depression, whether cause by life circumstances, genetic predisposition, or demonic influence makes one focus solely upon themselves.
And looking back over the whole of that experience, I am now thankful for it, for that experience was the catalyst to start living for God, and others, rather than for myself.
I totally agree with one of the others comments you make above where you say, “actually, it is that I would disappoint our Lord. It would mean, for me, that I have lost faith in Him.”
I agree, “It Is All About Trusting God.”
The negative circumstances that we face in life are a double edged sword, that satan can utilize to break us down, or that God can utilize to build us up.
It depends upon “us” as individuals as to how we perceive these circumstances, and how we choose to simply trust in God.
I, (we as His children), are here to serve Him and to love others. We are not here for God to serve us.
I hope that you aren’t offended by me commenting on what you had to say, or by my uninvited intrusion into your conversation.
Maybe there was a reason for someone else to hear the above?
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua as we Hope eagerly for His return.
“Intruded upon” – dear, Gregg, by no means do I feel that way. My mention of my fear of suicide of “having to come back here and do this all again” was sort of a joke I used to say….. And, it is no joke, and there is no coming back again, this I do believe.
Sometimes God has to bring us to the worst of our depths to bring us to Him. Sometimes we have to see the worst in others (such as those in law enforcement or 1st responders.) Too many times I saw what was left after a suicide was successful – and sometimes I was left with what was left when a suicide wasn’t successful.
Your own very personal situation obviously brought you to some strong truths – especially the one that matters the most (to me) and that is in our trusting the Lord, no matter how hard, no matter how much things do not make sense, no matter how much they may hurt.
You have not offended nor intruded.
Hi Denise,
Good, I’m glad that my comments weren’t considered to be intrusive.
You, (having been a first responder) have probably witnessed more than the average individual could handle.
Yet at the same time, God has probably used you as His vessel, to answer numerous prayers too.
God Bless you.
May Yeshua hold you tight.
I see you are censoring the truth again?
you have your own brand of truth that does not line up with scriptures….I suggest you humble yourself, and not criticize others…instead look at your own fault and work on them…..take time for self discovery
Marianne,
The prayer at the end of one of my posts above said “silence”. That was a prayer that you would not censor what had to be said until those who needed to hear it heard it. The friend with Kidney stones was God answering my request.
God bless.
leave it up to god what people need to hear.
you do not know people well enough to make that decision
remember, love and kindness and mercy is what god requires of us, not judgment
Micaiah….Look it up
Suicide is it the unpardonable sin
Dear brother and sisters — Saul basically killed himself. Without me having to write a long, long post. He ask them to kill him so he would not be captive alive to the barbarians and parade him in front of the people. So his armor bearer I think it was did what the King ask him to do.
Not only did the people chose and want him as their King. But God allowed it because Saul was a very humble man in the beginning. Also Samuel was with him and guided him. And Saul was “”anointed with the Holy Ghost””. The fault that led him astray was jealousy. He really Loved David but at the same time grew so jealous of him that he got beside himself. Jealousy is crueler than the grave.
BOTTOM LINE IS
He went to be with Samuel and that tells me he went to heaven. The soul that sins that soul will die. Samuel was in paradise and Saul went to be with him that very next day.
Now I’m one of the Few that believe Saul is in heaven today. So lets take thought about the “flesh man” that was not perfect but Gods Grace is greater. He was still “chosen of God” and had started out an “”anointed righteous man””. So if some of you feel cursed are always being nagged of your past and not feeling good enough. None of us are good enough. That’s why God had to become a man and die and resurrect for everyone one of us. And we all by “Grace” had to be “risen again” up to the status where Adam fell. Only Jesus could make this happen and you are Elected by Gods Grace. Remember Samson etc. etc. etc.
One more thought – In the O.T when it speaks of the Bride – One of the meanings of this one words is “perfect”. The devil would have us all denying that if he could Remember he came to still, kill, and destroy us. Where is the battle fought. In our mind. The mind is the last battle between Heaven and Hell.
Beacon
Hi Beacon,
To my knowledge, there is only one unpardonable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Jesus revealed the nature of this when the Pharisees and the teachers of the law said that he was driving out demons by Beelzebub, the prince of demons. Since Jesus was driving out demons by the Spirit of God, they, by saying that it was by Beelzebub, they were calling the Holy Spirit evil. As far someone taking their own lives, I would leave that between God and that person, because there is no way to know the individuals heart nor God’s decision regarding that act.
Also, when any of the OT saints died, Scripture states that they went into the heart of the earth to a place across from Hades, which was separated by great gulf or trench. This is evident from the information found in the event that Jesus described regarding Lazarus and the rich man (LK.16:19-31). When Jesus was on the cross, the thief crucified with him said, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom” and Jesus said to him, “this very day, you will be with me in paradise.” That place of paradise that Jesus spoke of was that place where father Abraham and Lazarus were across from Hades where the rich man was. We know that by saying “Paradise” that Jesus was not referring to heaven and that because after he had resurrected he told Mary not to hold onto him because he had not yet ascended to his Father, which would infer that he had not gone to heaven yet. Jesus and the thief died that day before sunset, which was the beginning of the Passover feast. The place of paradise that they went to was where all the OT saints went after death, which was where Abraham and Lazarus were. From that time on I believe that Scripture states that Jesus led the righteous souls out of that place and took them to heaven. Now when a person in Christ dies, their soul/spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. As for the unfaithful, the unjustified, when they die, they still go down into Hades and are in torment in flame just as the rich man was/is and will be resurrected out at the end of the millennial period (Rev.20:11-15).
Also of note, is the fact that when God allowed the witch of Endor to call Samuel at the request of Saul, if you’ll notice Scripture states that when Samuel appeared he said to Saul:
“Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
“Bringing me up” would infer that he was down in the earth, not up in heaven.
here goes dmacal – The rich man and Lazarus – This should answer at least a couple or three of your beliefs.
Thinking that we might have missed some less obvious meaning, I would invite you to explore some more with me. What are the veiled messages in this parable or the suppressed subject of this allegory? Are we to understand that angels carry away the bodies of the poor when they die but leave the rich dead to be buried? Is Jesus teaching that the redeemed dead actually go into Abraham’s arms in physical bodies immediately at their death, that the damned are cast into literal fire in their physical bodies the moment they die, and that the saved and the lost can see and communicate with each other? Is Abraham in charge of the unseen world and departed spirits? Does this give us the actual locations for those dubious diagrams about “Where are the dead?” Is Jesus teaching here that wealth is sinful and that poverty is virtue?
In most of the parables, Jesus set forth some veiled truth about the coming kingdom. Some of those parables dealt with the forthcoming rejection of the Christ and his kingdom by the Jews and their forthcoming rejection by God as a consequence. Let us think of this parable in such a framework.
Jesus said much about the Jews losing their favored status with God. Early in his ministry, in commending the faith of the Gentile centurion, he said to the Jews: “I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Matt. 8:11f). Is this not a parallel to the account of the rich man and Lazarus?
In the parable of the vineyard Jesus warned, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons (Matt. 21:33-41).
In another parable, because they spurned the king’s invitation to the wedding feast, the wedding hall was filled with others and “The king was angry, and sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city” (Matt. 22:1-14). The guests were not judged according to favored national or racial status but according to character depicted by the wedding garment. Because of their forthcoming rejection, Jesus pronounced woes against them prophetically declaring, “Behold, your house is forsaken and desolate” (Matt. 23).
The account under study is generally thought to be a lesson concerning the use of earthly wealth, and some of the context could support that approach. But the context also speaks of the good news of the kingdom (16:16).
The rich man may well portray the Jewish leaders and their nation. Being clothed in the purple of royalty and fine linen of the priesthood, they fared sumptuously on spiritual advantages. Paul wrote of this: “They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ” (Rom. 9:2-5). Accepting these blessings as though they deserved them, they became smug, exclusive, and nationalistic. They could argue among themselves as to which religious party among them was right without even considering that a Gentile might qualify for God’s favor.
Lazarus — whose name means “without help” — pictures the spiritually starving Gentile world that was ignored and disdained by the Jews. In his powerless state, he was laid, not near the table or the door, but outside the gate. Hear Paul concerning the condition of the Gentile: ‘Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands – remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ” (Eph. 2:11-13).
While the Jews were enjoying the “chosen” status “near” to God, the Gentiles were “far off.” In the company of dogs (idols), they had repulsive spiritual sores, soothed only by the licking of their pagan beliefs. While they were starving, the smug Jews had little mission even to toss them spiritual crumbs. A few proselytes would find crumbs through which means they might be led to become “twice as much a child of hell as yourselves” (Matt. 23:15). But now they would be welcomed by Abraham as his children through faith and as the chosen of God in him, along with individual Jews who together would become the new spiritual Israel.
Even as the Jews trusted that they were children of Abraham and children of the kingdom, they had become children of disobedience, children of hell, and children of their father, the devil. The roles were reversed so that Lazarus was in Abraham’s arms and the rich man was rejected and “far off.” The Jewish nation with its earthly hopes was overthrown in 70 A.D. when Jerusalem was destroyed and the Jews were dispersed among the Gentiles. In the succeeding centuries, the rich man has been calling for mercy from Lazarus as he has been scattered and persecuted among the nations. This allegory had an earthly and a spiritual meaning projecting into the centuries and into eternity.
This message was prophetic. Jesus was not describing the condition that existed at the moment, for their full rejection of Jesus was yet to come. The rich man asked that one be sent back from the dead to induce belief. Jews asked for greater signs, but they had Moses and the prophets, the same testimonies that would cause the Gentiles to believe, to induce faith. Yet, to further accommodate them, Jesus would call another Lazarus back from the dead. Instead of their being convinced by that demonstration, they began to consider how to put Jesus to death (John 11). After they had killed Jesus and he was proven to be the Son of God by his resurrection, the Jews still continued their rejection.
No other messenger would be sent. Jesus was the last prophet. The great chasm remains. The rich man cannot cross over. This is the last scene. Many modern disciples want to add another scene depicting the Jewish nation crossing that great gulf and being restored to favor as a nation. But the curtain falls!
This approach to interpreting this parable does no violence to other teachings of the Scriptures, and it does eliminate puzzling questions which we raised earlier.
Now let me entice you further into this uncertain course of interpretation. Let us look backward in our context. The Jews had been enriched by the mammon of earthly blessings along with the enrichment of spiritual advantage. While grasping the earthly promises, they proved themselves unfaithful in little. They were not trustworthy of the much greater spiritual treasures (Luke 16:10-13).
Then look back to the perplexing parable of the dishonest steward (v. 1-16). Having failed their stewardship and their loss of favor, they could still save themselves individually by dispensing the grace of God in forgiving sins through Christ like the Jewish apostles and evangelists did. This individual acceptance and proclamation of Christ would allow them to be forgiven and to be received into eternal habitations.
You could more easily swallow a whale than this interpretation? Well, some do have mouths larger than their minds! You are still my beloved brother or sister even when we disagree. That’s what counts.
Beacon
Beacon,
Regarding Lazarus and the rich man
First of all, by my post I was not looking for answers, I was teaching a truth on Scripture. 2nd, the event of Lazarus and the rich man is not an allegory, but an actual event that I believe took place at some time in history that Jesus made known to us. Parables usually don’t use real people or locations in them, but one thing represents another, wheat equals righteous, seed equals word, field equals world, harvester equals angel, etc., etc. The event of Lazarus and the rich man uses father Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and the prophets and Hades. I repeat, this is not a parable. The story of Lazarus and the rich man as a real event kills a lot peoples set interpretations and so these are the ones who usually refer to it as a parable and that so that the information becomes symbolic instead of literal taking away the real meaning.
You said:
“Are we to understand that angels carry away the bodies of the poor when they die but leave the rich dead to be buried?”
Rebut:
I believe that you need to go back and read the story, because both Lazarus and the rich man are said to have died and were buried. It is Abraham’s and the rich man’s soul/spirit that are interacting, not their bodies. Those were up on the earth decaying.
You said:
“Is Jesus teaching that the redeemed dead actually go into Abraham’s arms in physical bodies immediately at their death, that the damned are cast into literal fire in their physical bodies the moment they die, and that the saved and the lost can see and communicate with each other?
Rebut:
As I stated in the post, prior to Jesus resurrection, the souls/spirit of all saints went to that area across from Hades which was separated by a chasm, that is, a wide space keeping either side from crossing over, just as the Scripture states. Again, at the time of their death, the soul/spirit of Lazarus was taken by the angels to that place where Abraham and the rest of the OT saints were, not his physical body. Though not mention, it is possible that angels also took the rich man’s soul/spirit to Hades. By the way, the phase is that “The angels came and took him to Abraham’s side.” Other interpretations say, “To be with Abraham” and “to Abraham’s bosom.” The idea is that Lazarus went to the same location where Abraham was. Regarding “the lost can see and communicate with each other?” Yes, that is and that because they were obviously having a conversation and they could see, feel, hear, etc. Same thing with the souls under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal, for of them is says:
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.”
So in the Scripture above, John is seeing the souls of those who had been slain. They called out in a loud voice, which would show conscious awareness and they were given white robes to wear and told to wait a little longer. So, yes, the soul/spirits of Abraham and the rich man were conversing. I reiterate, they were not in their bodies, but in their spirits.
(Continued)
Lazarus and the rich man (continued)
You said:
“Is Abraham in charge of the unseen world and departed spirits? Does this give us the actual locations for those dubious diagrams about “Where are the dead?” Is Jesus teaching here that wealth is sinful and that poverty is virtue.”
Answer:
I cannot say whether or not Abraham is in charge of that location or not, for Scripture just does not expound on that. What can be deduced is that the souls/spirits of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man are mentioned as being there. But as I said in the original post, Jesus removed the saints from that area after he resurrected and ascended back to the Father. In regards to your question about, “Where are the dead?” The location of Hades is found in the following verse:
“And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.”
According to Jesus, Hades is down. Some try to distort the Scripture by claiming that the “down” is referring to the surface of the earth, but that is not the case here, for Jesus is speaking of Hades, the place of the unseen dead, which is located in the heart of the earth as defined by Strong’s:
“86 hádēs (from 1 /A “not” and idein/eidō, “see”) – properly, the “unseen place,” referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades. (Ex dwelling place of the lost dead – (Emphasis mine)
“Hades, the unseen world.”
“it denotes, therefore, in Biblical Greek Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark (Job 10:21) and dismal place it denotes, therefore, in Biblical Greek Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark (Job 10:21) and dismal place in the very depths of the earth ”
“the common receptacle of disembodied spirits”
At the end of the thousand years, all those who ended up in Hades will be resurrected out and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment and the books will be opened, that is, all that they did in life, thought, said, etc. and they will be accountable for every idle word they spoke. Then, everyone’s name that is not written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The entities that represent death and Hades are also thrown into the lake of fire”
“Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”
So, those in Hades go from the fire to the frying pan so to speak. But blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection for on such the second death has no power. Those who belong to Christ will not be apart of the great white throne judgment, for this is the judgment of the lost dead, the unjustified.
(Continued)
Lazarus and the rich man (continued)
You said:
“Let us think of this parable in such a framework.”
I reiterate, this is not a parable. If you will read it in the literal sense as it is stated in Scripture instead of distorting or circumventing it, you will understand that it was a literal event that took place. It tells us something about Hades. The rich man went because he didn’t have any mercy or compassion for Lazarus and probably not for anyone else. Jesus revealed this event to us to show us that punishment is real and that we should fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, that is, Geenna, the lake of fire, the second death. Hades is just a temporary place of torment in flame until judgment. Consequently, any one who finds themselves in Hades, their names will not be written in the book of life.
As for the rest of your response regarding this event, they are complete conjecture and guesswork. There is nothing in the story of Lazarus and the rich man that would even hint that it was a parable. It doesn’t read like a parable, it is not a parable and because you read as such, you miss the meaning. The meaning is that this place exists and for us to not go there. How do we do that, by having faith, by Loving the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. Fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So tell me, why is it so difficult for you to believe that God created a place within the heart of the earth where the lost dead reside in torment until judgment? This is what I was talking about when I said, when people symbolize what is meant to be literal, then they miss the meaning. If you would just read it as it is and not apply a symbolic meaning to it, then everything is clear.
Dmcal
You got the right to you opinion as I said. If you will just look up Man or “mankind” in the O.T you will find that in every case that they are “mortal” and die -UNLESS they knew their God and kept his covenant. Their will be NO DOGS enter into the city. Dogs are beast and die and are gone period already having been judged by their nature which was a beast nature. In the Resurrection of Christ did you see any mortals that were sinners walking around. NO just the Prophets and the Saints. ONLY – The bottom line their is a great “gulf” between the World and the Kingdom of God. The gentiles were as dogs and even Jesus called the woman a dog. Its hard but the truth. It was the riches of the world that Israel went to and their they become the Rich man and left God and His Christ. Israel has lived in desolation for 2,000 years now. Yet God in His mercy let Abraham be their father as well as the Jews. Remember he was a gentile to begin with.
I,m done with all this myself. For one thing I do not have the time. Or the patience anymore to try to fellowship the way you want it or need it.
I hope you the best and have nothing in my heart against you. Hope you are the same way. Beacon
Beacon,
So, what does all that you wrote above have to do with the event of Lazarus and the rich man? If you would stop adopting other peoples interpretations and using their apologetics and just read it for yourself, then you will get it, because this event is not hard to understand if you will read it at face value. Why do you go looking for some other meaning other than the literal one? Why can’t you just accept what is written? This is why most everything that you have claimed in Scripture is incorrect and that because of your method of interpretation and because you have been led astray by other expositors, books, websites, etc. In your studies, if you will adopt “if the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense” you will do good in understanding the Scriptures. But if you insist on adopting the teachings of others and then using their apologetics, then you are just repeating their errors. The burden of proof is on you and that because I am telling that this event took place just as it is written, verbatim. On the other hand, with your version, you have to allegorize everything changing the meaning.
Just do yourself a favor and let go of any preconceived ideas and read Lazarus and the rich man straight forward, at face value. Then do this for all Scripture until you come to something where the literal sense does not make good sense. An example of that would be “A dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns.” or “A woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet wearing a crown of twelve stars.” These are good examples of Scripture that are obviously meant to be symbolic with literal meanings behind them of which Scripture provides the answers to.
This no reason spiritualize or symbolize everything in Scripture, but only those things that require that type of interpretation.
Beacon, (Tom),
The simple definition of “plagiarism” is as follows;
“The practice of taking someone else’s work or ideas and passing them off as one’s own.”
The above that you posted was written by a Cecil Hook and can be found verbatim on the following Preterist website through this link.
http://www.preterist.org/articles/rich_man_and_lazarus.asp
Now personally I have no problem with copying and pasting material to express what one believes, however in the future, out of mere respect for the actual author, perhaps you should please also name the source from which it was copied and pasted.
With that said, though I disagree totally with the Preterist view point that the “giving of the Holy Spirit was in actuality, the Second Coming of Yeshua”, I don’t necessarily disagree with much of the content expressed within Cecil Hook’s commentary.
I, (as well as millions of others), accept Luke 16:19 through 31 as being a parable.
Now I’m not going to say that I am right and Don (dmcal) is wrong, because though he does not accept these verses as being a parable, I believe that his interpretation also has merit worthy of consideration.
However, this is why I happen to accept it as a parable and also accept some of Hook’s explanations regarding it.
In Luke 15:1. we see that many tax collector’s and sinners had drawn close around Yeshua so that they could hear Him better. And the Pharisee’s judged Yeshua for allowing them to do that and said, “Look, this Man accepts and welcomes sinners and even eats with them!”
In Luke 15:3., Yeshua stops what He is doing and acknowledges theses Pharisee’s that had just judged Him, and Luke records that acknowledgement as Yeshua responds to their comments with a parable.
Luke 15:4-7., is the parable of the “Lost Sheep” and Yeshua tells these Pharisee’s about the joy in heaven that occurs when one of these sinners that are surrounding Him, repents and returns to God. (This I’ll call parable 1-a.)
Luke 15:8-10., is the parable of the “Lost Coin”, and it expounds upon and reiterates the parable of the “Lost Sheep”.
(This I’ll call 2-a, because it’s the 2nd. parable in a row that expresses the same thing.)
Luke 15:11-32., is the parable of “The Lost and Prodigal Son”, and Yeshua pounds the previous points of the first 2 parables home, with an in depth explanation. (This I’ll call 3-a, for it is the 3rd. “parable in a row” and all “3”of these “parables” are relative to each other.)
In Luke 16;1., we read and see that Yeshua now turns to His disciples, (perhaps by just turning His head and facing them), and though He is now talking to them, He is still within hearing distance of the Pharisee’s, (see Luke 16:14. to confirm this.)
And though He is now facing His disciples, the parable of Luke 16:1-13., and that of “The Unjust Steward” is most definitely directed to the Pharisee’s.
(I’ll call this parable 4-b. for it is the 4th. spoken parable in a row, but now it is designated by a “b” because the subject itself has changed.
No longer is the topic about the joys in heaven when sinners that have been lost return, but rather the topic consists of those that were given a responsibility and have “dropped the proverbial ball” and will act shrewdly and conspire to steal from their Master to save their own skins.)
In Luke 16:14. we see that the Pharisee’s did indeed hear what Yeshua had just said and realized that they were the ones that were being referred to as being the “The Unjust Steward’s”. After they had basically “turned up their noses” to what He had said, Yeshua responds with what Luke writes within the verses of 16:15-18.;
“And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.”
Now verse 18 above wasn’t simply spoken arbitrarily, but with intention.
It is completely relevant to the parable of “The Unjust Steward”.
The Pharisee’s had forgotten and divorced their first love, and had played the harlot and had married another by seeking earthly riches and prestige, rather than God.
Yeshua knew that they, knowing the Law, would understand with Him saying that, that “they” had “committed adultery”.
So we see that Yeshua is still within the process of condemning the Pharisee’s.
And now we come to the verses in question, Luke 16:19-31., and that of “The Rich Man and Lazarus”.
Are they a parable or not?
Well 4 parables have just been spoken in a row to these Pharisee’s that had been listening with the last 1 specifically directed at them.
Therefore in my opinion, I would classify this as parable 5-b. for I believe that Yeshua is now explaining what the consequences are going to be for the Pharisee’s that have “committed adultery”.
I won’t bother to expound myself on those consequences, for I believe that they are self evident within the text themselves. But this is why I personally believe that these verses are also a “parable”.
Now, earlier above I had also stated, that I believe that “Don’s” (dmcal) interpretation also has merit worthy of consideration.
Because whether this is a parable or not, even a parable is defined as “a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson”.
Therefore being spoken by Yeshua it may also contain a “literal Truth”.
Perhaps what is expressed by Yeshua within these verses had already occurred countless times?
Perhaps it is also an historical account expressing what had happened to many of the Pharisee’s over the years?
Though it is my personal opinion that this is a parable, that doesn’t negate the possibility of that fact whatsoever.
Just my opinion.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua.
Hi Gregg, Tom, all,
I am glad that you brought this up Gregg, because this is exactly what I have been talking about regarding recognizing the difference between a parable and the literal, which you have listed above.
In the parable of the lost sheep, it is obvious that the sheep represent the righteous and the one who is lost represents the righteous who has lost his way, same with prodigal son . So the sheep are used symbolically to represent the righteous. Same thing with the parable of the lost coin. There are also other parables like the farmer sowing seed, some of it falls along the path, some on rocky soil, etc. The seed falling on different types of ground represent different types of hearers of the word. These are obvious as parables, the symbolic representing the literal.
The event of Lazarus and the rich man does not read like this, for real people are being named, Abraham, Moses, Lazarus, the prophets etc., as well as the real location of Hades, which is used thought Scripture. In this case one would have to consider Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, etc., as well as everything else mentioned within the Scripture as representing something else.
I am convinced that if you took a group of people who had never heard of or read anything regarding the Scripture of Lazarus and the rich man as being a parable and you separated them and told them that it was a parable and to interpret it, not one of them would come back with the same interpretation and that because there is nothing in the Scripture to lead one to the meanings behind the so-called symbolism that you would have to create. Point being, that to call this a parable, the death of the rich man and Lazarus, Hades, the angels that took them there, the separation of both locations by the chasm, his torment in flame, his brothers up on the earth, Abraham, Moses, Lazarus, the prophets, everything would have to be symbolic representing something else. The fact is, there would be no way of discerning that. At least in the parables mentioned above, one can attempt to assign meanings to the symbolism and that because they are obviously representing something else. Where in the event of Lazarus and the rich man, to assign symbolic meanings would be forced, conjecture and guess work.
remember the word used ; great gulf, this in my opinion shows that where god’s place is; is beyond our universe, or what some would call the end of the universe. it is conjecture but it makes sense.
Johnwaltz,
I’d have to disagree with you there John and that because the Scripture explains it very clearly, that the rich man is in a place of torment in flame and Lazarus was in a place of comfort. Both places were separated by a great chasm, so that no one from either side could cross over. To infer that the chasm is symbolic for “Beyond our universe” would be to read beyond with the Scripture says and that interpretation would be by conjecture only, that is, simply implied by you. There is just nothing in the Scripture to identify the chasm as being anything other than what it is, that being a crossing deterant for both sides. I don’t understand why you guys have such a hard time receiving the meaning of the Scripture as it is written?
Gregg and all. I will get back with you all – Been at it all day and week. Gregg I probably have sent in about 4 or 5 studies of others that I believed like. In the last 2 &1/2 years. I owe it to myself when I am so tired I’m compelled to do that. I enjoyed your post Gregg and have to go with it. But I’m going to look at the passages again cause I think there is more to it to make it plainer. But I do absolutely believe it is a parable. Parables always break down to a Spiritual meaning. But to the real disciples he explained them. Matt. 13.
dmcal – I usely consider all men’s interpretations. But ? I was already indoctrinated in that interpretation while in the Pentecostal, and Charismatic movements. So yes it is hard to recapitulate when you have been taught that for years and have changed alot in those years for the better.
Beacon
I guess the endless question for all of us is, does man’s interpretation match God’s interpretation? this is why the site is here, to discuss things like this, and see what we can find out
Yes Marianne – I just love discussing the word of God. Its my life and Im not trying to act sanctimonious. Jesus told the people to search the word for the days are coming that we gonna have to know it. I think we are in that day. The great falling away into error upon another little error upon another little error. Can change the complete revelation of the truth.
Even the disciples were numb when Jesus came and walked with them after the resurrection on the Emmaus Road. Until He gave them a history lesson in the scriptures and brought HIMSELF up through the OT ages to their age. And then their eyes were opened and they KNEW Him when breaking the Bread open. = The word became real to them and they went rejoicing.
Lord bless you Marianne. Thanks for your encouragement.
Beacon
gee, everything is quiet now.
hope all is well with everyone…..
good night to all
Marianne
Very good video. Wife and I both watched it.
Beacon
An insightful video. There are about 12 years in between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. I do not believe God is even mentioned in the Constitution, whereas God was mentioned in the first sentence of the Declaration of Independence.
It is a strange and interesting past that this country has. In President Washington’s farewell address (and Washington spoke in some very strange ways, did people really speak this way 200 years ago?) It is like he could see well into the future. That as much as we want, as a country, to be united in common interests, it is experience and habits that will prevail over any written constitution.
Will we ever be empty enough to even leave room for God? It seems it was doubtful then. In his 1796 farewell address to Congress, Washington states:
“The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge natural to party dissention, which in different ages & countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders & miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security & repose in the absolute power of an Individual: and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty.”
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp
It is going to get interesting.
Denise
is this not what is going on right now in the u.s. ; freedom of speech is being removed by the goverment in the guise of “hate speech” week after week you hear of people being accused of this so called “hate speech”, attempts by the goverment to ban gun sales to citizens is slowly gaining ground, there can only be one reason for that happening. and it is not to stop crime. marriage has now been compromized. the rainbow colation has nothing to do with god’s bow in the sky. i could go on and on but i believe the point is made.
I agree entirely, and it began only 12 years after declaring ourselves a country, God began disappearing from here – and I fear it will only get worse.
John,
Yes, I agree with you. We are in the last days! The fact that people are running headlong into destruction by fighting for the right to have same-sex marriages is a definite sign. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding and now the entire world has become like Sodom and Gomorrah. To be clear, they have the freedom to to that, but the consequences for sexual immorality or wilfully living according to the sinful nature remain the same. We have people who are living same-sex life styles and who are claiming to be Christian, but as Scripture states: Be not deceived, for God cannot be mocked, for whatsoever a person sows to, that is what he will reap. If they sow to the flesh they will reap destruction, but if they sow to the Spirit the will reap eterna life. The meaning of that is, you can say you belong to Christ, but if you’re living to please the flesh, you’re not gonna pull one over on God and obtain eternal life. The problem is that those who are living like this and calling themselves Christians are justifying and embracing their sexual sins instead of repenting. If they would only repent and recognize their sins, the God would receive them, but he requires repentance, for it is impossible to please God in the flesh.
Sorta sounds like there are many that profess one thing, but will ultimately still fall into the category of the Church of Laodicea huh?
1- Ephesus
2- Smyrna
3- Pergamos
4- Thyatira
5- Sardis
Five Churches out of Seven with Seven denoting completeness.
Five Churches which could be from where the Parable of the Ten Virgins is relevant, where half (5) went through the door, and half (5) didn’t.
Half fit into the category of the church (or assembly) of Philadelphia.
Half fall short and fit into the category of the church (or assembly) of Laodicea.
Some (a remnant) receive their white garments for being overcomers.
Others have to “earn” them while going through the Testing period of the Tribulation.
I also believe that we are in the last days, as we all Watch for Yeshua’s return in the clouds, pray for all of His church to be prepared and ready for that return.
Amen.
Be Blessed “IN” Yeshua
Bro. John 777 – Gregg & dmcal and all.
The Great “chasm or gulf” between the Rich man and Lazarus.
Lasted from Abraham’s day to Jesus Christ day. And it consisted of the the “time” before God united Gentiles and Israel together. Jesus Christ Death, burial, and Resurrection bridged this gap between Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were considered ‘dogs” and did not have the great favor of God as did Israel for 2,058 years from Abraham to Jesus Christ.
God chose Israel first to “raise up” and be His Bride – Jeremiah used the word Bride in his writings. A Special people . That become very favored with Grace and Love and become Prosperous, and a mighty Nation in time. But then sold out their birth rights for the riches of this world.
Rom. 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom. 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: The Jews as a whole rejected the “The Spiritual Kingdom of God” when Christ died for it and sent them the Holy spirit which is the “Kingdom of God” in all men that would except it. The Spirit or I could say the “Tree of Life” came back to them and the world had access to it by the Blood of Jesus Christ restoring back what the 1st. Adam caused to fall.
If God is a Spirit then what is the Holy spirit – but God Himself in His creation brought to us by The Son of Man who was a little lower than the angels till His own Resurrection back to God. Jesus said I came from God and I go back to God.
Meaning dogs licked the wound
The dogs licked Lazarus wound — Stop and think about the gentile woman who needed healing and stood at the door of the Jews waiting for Jesus to come by. To heal her. Jesus said “it is not meat to give the children’s bread to the dogs”. But “she had faith” and Jesus granted her request. Same with the Centurion who sent slaves to Jesus to heal his servant. The “gentile centurion” said he was not even worthy for Jesus to come into his house cause he was a sinner. Yet Jesus said “he had more faith that all of Israel. ” Now you can see what is happening in the near future for the Jew and Gentile is coming together. Remember that many people stood at the door of the Temple trying to get healed or salvation. Deliverance
The Great Gulf or Chasm :
The “Great Gulf or chasm” was between “Gentile and Jew”. But the Blood that was in the Eternal LIFE CELL that fell on the earth =clay is going to Join with the rest of the Nation’s to become “Disciples of Christ” same as the Jew.
Hope you see what I mean on this. Tree of life was only mentioned in Genesis and Revelation. And we all should know it was not an apple.
The Gentile were thought of as lower beings. And could not as “a whole” receive Jesus Christ until after Israel rejected their Messiah. Remember Peter having to have 3 visions to even go to the house of the Italian band. And they received the “Holy Spirit” the same as we Peter said. Speaking of Acts. 2:38 on. That event happened between 3 to 10 years after the Resurrection of Christ.
Christ became their Bridge over that Great gulf and chasm and were excepted of the beloved and cleansed from all sins as well as the Jews.
Now on the Focus of the Parable:
The focus of the story is not on the mechanics of Hades, but on the two characters: Lazarus and the rich man.
Specifically he tells Abraham “Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house– for I have five brothers–in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.” (Luke 16:27,28)
In Genesis 35:22,23 we read a rather obscure genealogical statement that helps us in this investigation: “…the sons of Leah: Reuben, Jacob’s firstborn, then Simeon and Levi and Judah and Issachar and Zebulun.” Evidently, Jacob had twelve sons, of which six were born by Leah.
Judah therefore had five brothers, a well-known fact among the Jews, confirmed again by Leah’s own statement in Genesis 30: “God has endowed me with a good gift; now my husband will dwell with me, because I have borne him six sons.” (Verse 20)
Quite clearly therefore, the rich man with five brothers described in the parable is none other than Judah, to whom (generally speaking) the priesthood, the Law and the Prophets were entrusted, so being a poor steward seems to be the fault of the rich man.
We also know this by what the Rich man wore – As a Priest etc. Purple – and Blue and White. Much much more could be said but that is the main point of this saying of Jesus Christ. Jesus was not focusing on what hell was only that it was a suffering place to be in. The other Five brother’s were in the house of Judah that the rich man was talking about.
Beacon
Hi Beacon,
you said:
“Bro. John 777 – Gregg & dmcal and all.
The Great “chasm or gulf” between the Rich man and Lazarus.
Lasted from Abraham’s day to Jesus Christ day. And it consisted of the the “time” before God united Gentiles and Israel together. Jesus Christ Death, burial, and Resurrection bridged this gap between Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were considered ‘dogs” and did not have the great favor of God as did Israel for 2,058 years from Abraham to Jesus Christ.”
Rebut:
What you are doing here Beacon is taking literal information that is speaking about an actual, literal raveen, trench, chasm, gulf, and expanse, a big hole in the ground, and giving it a symbolic meaning. The problem with this is that there is nothing in the Scripture that would reveal the meaning behind the so-called symbolism. You and everyone else who believes this to be a parable would have to apply their own meaning to each of the characters and details mentioned in the this Scripture and no one would come up woith the same answers. Most of the symbolisms found in the parables listed in Scripture can be figured out just by reading them and in some of them we are given the answer. But you would never be able to figure out the so-called symbolism of Lazrus and the rich man and that because it is not a parable. Each interpretation would be specific to each person and without anyway to prove it.
It is a true event of two men dying and their souls being taken to two different places that were separated by a chasm. one was in torment in flame and the other was comforted. The rich man was literally speaking to the soul of Abraham and seeing Lazarus, which shows that after death there is conscious awarness of the soul and that there is a place of temporary torment within the heart of the earth and no one can go back to warn anyone on earth of this place just as Abraham told the rich man.
Why go after the obscure?
dmcal and all
These are 2 different dimensions. We have to understand. Which is below.
We have to die out and carry our cross while in this world if we going to cross over that great divide of the “Kingdom of Darkness” into the “Kingdom of light”.
Their is absolutely a great gulf between Darkness vs. light. Good vs. Evil, Proud vs. Humble
Their was a fall by Adam 1 – breaking the bridge from Man to God in unity.
That is the gulf. The gulf is darkness, death, sin, that produces Death, Hell , and the Grave. Also Faith vs. Doubt – a gulf – Sickness vs Health is a gulf – eternal death vs. Eternal life their is a gulf, chasm, another dimension etc.
Jesus Christ bridged the “gulf of sin, death, sickness, perversion, killing, unrighteousness on and on”. Read both Duet. 28 and 29th. chapters. Nothing but Blessings or Curses for mankind. Egypt was a great gulf to the slaves of Israel. Till Moses the “Word and Spirit” come to them. They were in a hopeless condition against Pharaoh and his armies of devils.
To be in Adam 2 = Jesus Christ. Made it possible to eat of the ETERNAL life tree freely after His resurrection. Mankind and God kissed and made up at Calvary. That was the gulf between God and man. If you miss that gulf or chasm. You missed what life was all about.
Jesus Christ was our redeemer from the great chasm, and gulf that the 1st. Adam caused. Only Jesus Could do it. No other man. Rev. 5 – It had to be the God/man not made by hands or sex desire.
And while I’m thinking of it. Moses had Christ in him to deliver Israel out of the great “gulf” – ditch – valley, river, red sea, mountains, enemies etc.
From slave’s to Kings ruling the land. Doing the impossible. They had the favor of God with them. As did Lazarus have Gods favor over the great Rich Religious Priest.
The Sin of Adam’s World was standing in mankind’s way=a gulf that stops us from entering into the “Eternal Kingdom of God=Holy Spirit. Mankind lost its connection with the Tree of Eternal life. Was not the “Tree of life” protected after man sinned. So their would not be such a thing as a “Eternal sinner” either. There is no Eternal life except in Jesus Christ who was God in a flesh body – the Jews actually called it a Mask. God just changes mask when HE wants something done.
Beacon
Beacon,
You said:
“Their was a fall by Adam 1 – breaking the bridge from Man to God in unity.
That is the gulf. The gulf is darkness, death, sin, that produces Death, Hell , and the Grave. Also Faith vs. Doubt – a gulf – Sickness vs Health is a gulf – eternal death vs. Eternal life their is a gulf, chasm, another dimension etc.
Rebut:
Again, what you have said above and everything else in your post is conjecture, that is, it is implied by you without Scriptural basis. For example, you are insinuating that the great chasm that separated the two areas that Abraham and Lazarus were in is symbolic for “breaking the bridge from Man to God in unity.” In other words, you’re saying that the chasm is symbolic for our being separated from God because of sin. But as I said before, there is absolutely no way for you to prove by Scripture, that this is the meaning for the chasm. It’s all guess work on your part. If we were to have a 1000 people give us their interpretation of this so-called parable, there would be a 1000 different interpretations. On the other hand, I agree with exactly with what the Scripture states, verbatim. In other words, there was a real beggar named Lazarus, a real rich man, they both died, their bodies were buried upon the earth and their soul/spirit’s were taken by the angels to their respective places. Lazarus was in that place of paradise where he was comforted and the rich man was in torment in flame in Hades, which was an area across from where Lazarus was and separated by that literal chasm. Lazarus couldn’t go back upon the earth to the rich man’s house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn’t go to the same place that he did.
If you will go from parable to parable, you will see that the event of the rich man and Lazarus does not read anything at all like a parable. Normally parables use something figurative to represent a literal truth. But here in the event of Lazarus and the rich man, there is no symbolism, as real people are being used, Abraham, Lazarus, the rich man, Moses, the prophets, etc. Also, the literal location of Hades is being used. Everyone who dies without the Lord, their soul/spirits are taken here and will remain there until the end of the thousand year reign of Christ where they will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment and anyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:11-15).
As I said, the burden of proof is on you and those who claim the same and that because I agree with exactly what the Scripture says, literal word for literal word. Just exactly as the Scripture proclaims it. It escapes me as to why people ignore the literal and run after the obscure. There is just nothing in the Scripture to support it as being a parable.
To all
Dmcal – You must remember and take thought. The Bible is about Salvation. From the beginning to the end. That is what I think the Bible means as a whole. We can discuss the dead and where you go. But to me most all parables are about salvation in some form or another. Their is always a “fear of losing your soul and understanding what the scriptures really mean. If you are a believer. It was Jesus Christ will that all be saved. But He also knew that all would not heed His Message. Still its about Deliverance or Salvation to me.
The Jews said – What must we do to have Eternal life. Jesus said believe on Him who was sent. Jesus was the Manifested, Revelation of “THE WORD” and told all His disciples the Hidden manna, and the “mysteries of God”. He said I have Told you ALL things. This is why we still “discuss” the word amen.
The Truth is here now and has to be heard. Its up to the body of Christ to dig their well and find it. No digging – No revealing.
dmcal said to me — you’re saying that the “chasm is symbolic” for our being separated from God because of sin.
answer – Well all symbols have to be understood by -A material object representing something immaterial emblem or sign. = Webster – You doing the same thing you accuse me of. You just want a literal translation. I want the literal and the Spiritual meaning of the Whole parable. Even if this event was literal it still has a literal and Spiritual meaning.
Dmcal you said – But as I said before, there is absolutely no way for you to prove by Scripture, that this is the meaning for the chasm.
Answer – You have never given me your answer on what is the gulf or chasm even is. I guess you would have to literally think its all about “hell fire” as you say and think. But that is not true dear brother. What you are saying is that you got it right and I don’t. You are making a symbol out of it yourself and all you see is the “literal material Hell fire that you gonna live in eternally. Which is false doctrine.
What we really need to know is what put that rich man into hell. He was a deceived Preacher or Priest. Answer – He never ever crossed over the “chasm” from a “time element” to an “Eternal element” Rev, 10:6. He stayed a natural man. He never ever understood the “Thunder of Gods message” that his prophets Abraham or Moses etc. gave him. So he never understood the truth for his day. Never experienced the Celestial man at all. He was deceived and went to hell. He had no ear to hear what the Prophets and Abraham and Moses had to say. He was to busy being rich and powerful and haunty.
Also I will answer your 1000 to one remark. To me you got it backwards.
I think it myself as 1,000 to one that more are deceived like the Rich man. Cause in the O.T it says one Israelite would chase a 1,000 enemy away. Praise God.
At 22 years old I probably thought it all one sided as you think now. I just got saved and they preached fear all the time. They “loved preaching Fear to people” and used that scripture constantly to bring them to the alter. And that is alright in its place. But “fear”only. Cannot keep a marriage together. But fear with Love and Grace that brings Overcoming Faith in the trials of life.
Yet today we seemed to learn our lesson on FEAR and now they just Teach on how much “God loves you” and never hear of hell fire judgment. Either way if you only preach and teach one side of anything you are bound for failure. Perversion will come from it. It always does. Balance is what we look for for all believers who love the Word of God. They seeking the Truth not a lop sided Gospel. “”So maybe we both right.”” There should be a “Fear of Hell” — with the “Love” for GOD — Hello – hope we can agree on that.
Love brings justice. Love is correctional and being evil needs correction.
But governments are coming down on anybody judging others. People scared to say anything might get put in jail.
Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: ”’but rather ”fear Him” which is able to “”destroy both soul and body”” in hell. =Gehenna –
The word “Hell” here is Gehenna – The valley of death and sorrow. People laid for days and days dying of leprosy, cancers, old age, wound’s, sickness, abandoned by family etc. etc.
The city keep the fire burning so that when they died they just rolled them down the hill and into the fire to be “done away with” “and burned up”. To purify the air and the stench. And get rid of the body period.
After studying this further if you look into the “greek” it reveals the Rich man had no such suffering in his life. He was blessed of God and prosperous as a Priest of God. BUT he did not “Know God” so how could the Rich man help him and lead Him to God. Let alone have mercy upon poor Lazarus. So we both know that the Rich man had no discernment at all and was a Priest.
Which is scarier to you. Laodicea is the Rich and last church age. They say we have need of nothing. We got it all. Jesus said they lied. The church today is bound up in false doctrines. The truth is alien to this generations as it was in Jesus generation. Love and prosperous is about all they preach about.
Same as like Nicodemus a head Leader came to Jesus at night. Jesus had to tell him about the”New Birth” that was in the O.T and N.T covenants. Jesus rebuked that Priest for not knowing about God making a New Creation out of people like He did the Prophets and Moses, and Elijah and all. That priest could not even lead a person to God. Elijah could, Moses could, Prophets could and all died for it.
Your Soul is the NATURE of your SPIRIT. Which is your “CHARACTER” that MARKS your “Identity to Heaven or Hell”. Your Eternal Life or Death is shown by your Mark of Character you are . Rev. 13:6 – This is probably the most needed statement in this whole post and in ALL the church’s today bar none. How to know that you are not lost. Is what we all need to understand. Its by our Character which is the Nature of your spirit. If you live for lust. Your Character sooner or later will tell on you. The Holy Spirit will correct you if you are a real believer.
The rich mans “Mark” was his Character and it was bad. Sooo bad they he let Lazarus go hungry at his door. He did not even try to help him or pray for him. The Rich man was a son of Cain with no remorse even though he was a Priest of some kind.
bottom line of this parable – One went to Heaven – One went to Hell –
The Poor slob that had no comfort in life and suffered all his life in destitution, and agony. Knew more about God’s mercy than the Rich man knew and him being a priest. The Rich man found out the difference when he was dying and wanted his 5 brothers to know their Lord by Moses Covenant and Law and Grace. The Rich man saw it to late. I have experienced this same thing in my own life. Dear People that said they were Christians crying out on their death bed. Cause they did not know if they were really ready to meet God. I loved both of them. But when they died they were still uncertain. And I have hope they are their. But I do not know.
The Rich man being a Priest had time to tell his brothers to live right and not be LOST AS HE WAS. But how could he. He was lost and could not lead them to God. So whats worse in this parable to know — Lazarus not educated in Religion but was humble and believed in God and Moses and Abraham. Or the rich man going to hell. Its a Toss up amen. We need to understand this whole Parable to let people understand both sides of the picture. symbols
To be Saved and not Lost is the Main issue of the whole Bible to me.
The Tree of Eternal Life – or its – The Tree of eternal death. And that was in the VERY BEGINNING of life on earth. Alpha and Omega.
“Satan’s first message”
There is a great “gulf” between the 2 Trees. How could one not believe that. And or disagree with that. The Gulf, or Chasm, was the sin of eating from the tree of death and dying. How many know the Tree was Christ rejected. But if you love to eat from the Tree of death. And think you are still going to Heaven you are as deceived as Eve was by satan who said in his sly serpent way.
Eating of the Tree of Carnal Knowledge will make you like gods. And then satan said and you will NOT surely die. That’s the First Message Satan ever Preached and it’s being preached to day at an alarming rate to the lost. Everybody is going to Heaven. That is what this world thinks. Also the church world. You can be a sinner and still go to heaven. If you practice sin and are a real Christian you will know when you sin. And you can make it right with God. This is why I’m always telling everybody that receiving the HOLY GHOST is not an option. Its a must have. It is your adoption. It is your Marriage. It is your New Creation Birth. And it is Your Guide to all truth. You have been received of the Father and are now a Son of God.
Now the last point
The 1,000 year Millennium “Was a Day to Peter” Its the “Day of the Lord” who owns all mankind. But each in their own order our ages. And like David said. The Cattle on a thousand hills is Gods. The means all the cattle and also that means “All of Mankind belongs to GOD as well”. How could you separate it. No one in the Bible ever lived to be 1,000 years old. Our life is our Millennium in two ways = Eternal life or eternal death. Millions calling themselves Christians today will never see their millennium because they have never experienced the “Kingdom of Heaven” on their piece of earth yet. Jesus knew Cain, Esau, Judas, was going to be lost. But He also Knew Peter, James, and John was not. One group eternally lost. The other group with Eternal Life. That’s what salvation is – A calling to you personally in the 2nd. Coming of Jesus Christ to stand with the Apostles of the 1st century Coming. Till the complete end of the Age of Salvation comes to its end. Its the end for the Wide gate people. But the Beginning to the Narrow gate people. Who said we got it in Matt.7 – Look at all we done the great miracles of schools, and teachings, casting out devils , won many to the Lord. And Jesus said ” I never Knew you” I would rather know “who I am” and not deceived as was the Rich man.
This is the blessedness, and Grace of the “Salvation the God” that has been given us. If you know you are chosen then rejoice with Lazarus. And shun the Rich man in his stuffed shirt and arrogance. Make your election and calling SURE. The Believer will. He has the fear and the love of God in him and trembles at thy WORD. But not the unbeliever.
I hope others do also read yours and my posts and all others. That would like to Discuss not argue. Discussing, Debating is not evil. It is how you learn new things. The New wine is good for the soul and the mind. Keeps us watching. Ready to go. New wine is a stimulation. Thats what happen on day of Pentecost. They got stimulation by Revelation. Brothers that is so sweet when it happen’s to you as well. And you know you have heard from God. And He lives IN you.
Beacon
Hi Beacon,
First of all, please limit your posts, because it is undesirable to read when it is this lengthy. Either that or separate the contents into separate posts.
You said:
” Well all symbols have to be understood by -A material object representing something immaterial emblem or sign. = Webster – You doing the same thing you accuse me of. You just want a literal translation. I want the literal and the Spiritual meaning of the Whole parable. Even if this event was literal it still has a literal and Spiritual meaning.”
Rebut:
You must understand that, not everything is a parable or symbolism. This is the problem, that being, you interpret information as a parable that is not ment as a parable. There are not always multiple meanings to Scripture. I am not doing the same thing as you are, but am reading the event of Lazarus and the rich man just as it is given, as a real event that Jesus revealed to us. I go no further with it because there is nothing in the context that would lead me to a symbolic meaning
You said:
“You have never given me your answer on what is the gulf or chasm even is. I guess you would have to literally think its all about “hell fire” as you say and think. But that is not true dear brother. What you are saying is that you got it right and I don’t. You are making a symbol out of it yourself and all you see is the “literal material Hell fire that you gonna live in eternally. Which is false doctrine.”
Rebut:
I have told you over and over again what the chasm is and it is the same as the Scripture states below:
” And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.”
So in this place within the heart of the earth, there is a literal chazm or trench fixed between the place of paradise where Lazarus and Abraham were, separating it from Hades where the rich man was in torment in flame. This chasm or ravine was put there by God to keep those in Hades from passing over to that place of paradice and that because they were there in Hades specifically to be tormented. This is what the Scripture teaches.
You said:
“You are making a symbol out of it yourself and all you see is the “literal material Hell fire that you gonna live in eternally. Which is false doctrine.”
Rebut:
How in the world can I make the event of Lazarus and the rich man a symbol when I have been telling you that it was a literal event that Jesus is relating to us just as the Scripture says verbatum. That makes no sense at all. Furthermore, the Scripture states that the place is Hades and not Hell, which are two different places. The saved do not live in Hades eternally, as you said above. It is the unfaithful, those who do not belong to God that go into Hades and wait for Judgment, not the righteous. When the faithful die, their souls/spirits go immediately to be in the presense of the Lord.
(Continued)
(continued)
You said:
“What we really need to know is what put that rich man into hell. He was a deceived Preacher or Priest. Answer – He never ever crossed over the “chasm” from a “time element” to an “Eternal element” Rev, 10:6. He stayed a natural man. He never ever understood the “Thunder of Gods message” that his prophets Abraham or Moses etc. gave him. So he never understood the truth for his day. Never experienced the Celestial man at all. He was deceived and went to hell. He had no ear to hear what the Prophets and Abraham and Moses had to say. He was to busy being rich and powerful and haunty. ”
Rebut:
The answer as to what put the rich man into Hades can be found in the following:
“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table.
For one, it is obvious that the rich man trusted in his wealth and not in God. Also, the context would imply that he had no mercy or love for Lazarus by providing care for his sores nor did he give him any food. The rich man was kind of the antithesis of the good Samaritan that Jesus spoke of. This would also indicate that the rich man didn’t recognize God as the One who provided his wealth, which would also mean that he did not give thanks to God for it. If he had been thankful, recognizing that all things come from God, he would have had mercy and compassion on Lazarus. Just to reiterate, the rich man did not go to hell, but was taken to Hades. Hades is within the heart of the earth, whereas the location of Hell, being the final place of punishment for the lost dead, is never revealed. Hell is the same place that the beast and the false prophet are thrown into alive when Jesus returns at the end of the age and where Satan will also be thrown into at the end of the thousand years. In comparison to Hell, Hades is a temporary place of torment until the great white throne judgment. Then the dead, those whose names are not found written in the book of life who will have come out of Hades, will be thrown into the lake of fire, the second death, Hell.
You said:
“At 22 years old I probably thought it all one sided as you think now. I just got saved and they preached fear all the time. They “loved preaching Fear to people” and used that scripture constantly to bring them to the alter. And that is alright in its place. But “fear”only. Cannot keep a marriage together. But fear with Love and Grace that brings Overcoming Faith in the trials of life.”
Rebut:
Why would you say that I’m only one sided? I expound on pretty much every subject found in the word of God. As far as fear goes, this is the main message. What do you think the word salvation refers to? Saved from what? That being, that we are all sinners and that the reward for sin is death, which is eternal separation from God in torment. Regarding fear, Jesus told his disciples and therefore us the following:
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.”
(Ps.111:10)
“The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.” (Prov.9:10)
And as Mary says in her song:
“His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation.”
Now before you try to proclaim that the word fear used here does not mean fear as being afraid, here is the definition:
Phobeo – I fear, am terrified
Definition: I fear, dread, reverence, am afraid, terrified. to put to flight, to terrify, frighten
Ever since people began telling me that we shouldn’t fear God, I started highlighting everywhere in Scripture where the phrase “fear God” was found and the frequency is overwhelming. When the Spirit gives me opportunity to testify of Christ and to share his word, I proclaim both the good news of salvation and the consequences of rejecting Christ. What do think the purpose of all the warnings in Scripture are for? It is because if a believer turns away and goes back to living in the sinful nature, it leads to death and we begin to accumulate a multitude of sins. We should fear God knowing that it is by grace through faith that we are saved, it is the gift of God and not by our own efforts. Like branches we must remain on the vine and produce fruit. If not, then like branches without fruit, we are good for nothing but to be broken off and thown into the fire (John 15:1-8). To fear God is to love God and to recognize his sovereignity.
(Continued)
(Continued)
Just a note, the Scripture does not mention anything about the rich man being a priest. So, we must not go beyond what is in the context.
(Continued)
You said:
“Satan’s first message”
There is a great “gulf” between the 2 Trees. How could one not believe that. And or disagree with that. The Gulf, or Chasm, was the sin of eating from the tree of death and dying. ”
Rebut:
This is all conjecture on your part, as there is nothing in the Scripture that supports this. You sound like you have been taught by a new age group or something simular. While it is true that sin separated us from God, it does not mean that the separatioin is to be interpreted as that great chazm referred to in the rich man and Lazarus. That is simply implied by you.
You said:
“The 1,000 year Millennium “Was a Day to Peter” Its the “Day of the Lord”
Rebut:
Peter said,
“With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.”
Many people have made the error of using this verse as a way of trying to figure out prophecy time-lines making a thousand years equal to one day. Peter said this only to show that God is not restricted or controlled by time as we are, as he exists outside of time. It was not meant as a measuring line to figure out when prophetic events would take place.
Also, “The day of the Lord” is not the millennium, but is that time period in which God will be pouring out his wrath upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. Not all Scripture have multiple meanings.
All scriptures dove tail together. If it does not dove tail together then that will put a break in the continuity of the Word of God. Now just look at how long of study we have put into this one little parable. It leads to another subject to another subject that all dove tails with the Word. With different meanings.
Im glad that Jesus had the “Emmus walk” with two of his disciples. He went from Moses and brought up ALL scriptures of Him being the Messiah. Literal will not explain the Spiritual and it’s a given that the generation of Jesus day were hung up in the literal more than the Spiritual. The majority took it all literal. Could not recognize their on Deliverer.
We must have the “Spiritual” in us to see the Spiritual that is in the word.
I preached a whole sermon to you above. Showing you all the things that dove tail with just this one parable. You missed it completely again.
I also give you a benefit of the doubt that your meaning could be right. But mine as well.
You said – Furthermore, the Scripture states that the place is Hades and not Hell, which are two different places.
Answer absolutely wrong – Death, Hell, and the Grave have got the same exact meaning to them.
Beacon
Dmacl – You said to me- I have told you over and over again what the chasm is and it is the same as the Scripture states below:
” And besides all this, between us and you a “great chasm” has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.”
Answer amen – Two different distinct people and places. You are saying the exact same thing Im saying. The gulf is the sinner that knows not God – And does not feel a need for God as he should. He is a carnal Christian saying it up to date. So Yes that is what I have been saying as well. Just in another way. The 2 Trees have a gulf between them. When Adam and Eve sinned that created a “gulf” between good and evil. But it was the “Plan of Salvation” that God instituted. To become a Man and die for His own . Showing Himself as a Savior — praise God and not just a creator.
A sinner cannot pass over the “Great gulf of death” unless he has been converted.
You said — So in this place within the heart of the earth, there is a literal chazm or trench fixed between the place of paradise where Lazarus and Abraham were, separating it from Hades where the rich man was in torment in flame.
My answer – I just explained that. Like I said its basically the same as I’m saying but you seem to be so scared of the Spiritual interpretation of anything.
Also Father Abraham was considered as God like to his sons and daughters.
So Lazarus was with God.
Yes the Rich man went back to dust and ashes. He was clay to begin with. And he brought his annihilation on by the center of his earth. HIS HEART was not right with God. “”the soul that sinneth, that soul shall die. Eze. 18:4
That Soul represents the WHOLE man.
Yes the Rich man dug his own grave by his lack of faith and love for God.
If you never crossed that great gulf into Salvation its back to dust to dust. You have to die twice as a sinner. But Lazarus only had to die one time. Think about it. The sinner has to die the 2nd. death. Rev. 2 and 3 and on.
The only form of Eternal Fire is in God the all consuming fire. So you would have to be full of the Spirit of God and have Eternal life to live with Him. Jesus was God in flesh body. He is thee Redeemer of all men. The Cross was the Bridge between Death and Life. The only form of Eternal life is found in Jesus Christ. He fixed that great gulf by his death, burial, and resurrection. That His chosen could cross it into Eternal life.
Special Note. On mount transfiguration. Who did you see. Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. Talking to Jesus discussing his death burial and resurrection no doubt.
But the POINT is that Elijah was alive, Moses was alive. They did not have to wait till the Resurrection. Helloooo out their. They represented the O.T church in Moses and Elijah as the living saints. Remember it was a Elijah prophet that introduced Jesus Christ to catch the Jew and Gentiles. To give life to them. That’s deep but its the truth. The great cloud of witness is all the saints gathered together. Dressed in white. They never could find Moses, or Elijah. Yet the had already resurrected. Before their time. They both had Christ in them in full power.
Beacon out