HELL: Does it really exist?

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Is the traditional view of hell right or wrong?

Guest author: Jim Giordano

Marianne’s note:

Since this is not the mainstream view of hell, I would assume there would be disagreements.

But the important thing is the truth, so I encourage debate on this.

While traditional Christians believe in hellfire and eternal hell, traditional Jews do not.

So, how did this line of thinking change?

Was one view correct until Jesus came, and then the game changed?

Was there only one hell to begin with, and it is still the same?

Or was the truth about hell not understood all along?

What really happens when we die?

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Basic concept:

So what happens when we die? Are we judged immediately by God and then sent either to heaven to play a harp on a cloud or to hell where we burn in agony forever?

The truth is that when we die, we sleep – rest in peace – until either the first resurrection when Jesus returns, or after the millennium is over and the rest of the dead are raised.

In fact, the word “hell” simply means “grave.” It is “sheol” in Hebrew and “Hades” in Greek. It is not the hell of Dante’s Inferno from which modern Christians get their concept from.

The bible never describes hell or discusses its existence. There is no need to since early bible readers knew it was simply the grave and nothing more. Just what you would expect from a loving and merciful God.

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Point of disagreement from established, mainstream, thought:

The idea of an ever-burning hell has frightened countless millions!

What really happens to the wicked after death?

Are they “doomed to hell,” where their “souls” roast in “torment” forever?

If hell exists, and the wicked go there, where is it and what is it? And when do they go? What about the resurrection of the dead?

There are many popular beliefs about the fate of unrepentant sinners. Why such confusion? What are the Bible answers? Here is the truth about hell!

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Popular Belief

The most common image of people “roasting in hell” pictures a God willing to burn people for all eternity without ever totally burning them up. Apart from what the scriptures teach, ask yourself, what kind of God is capable of this?

Modern “human rights activists” recognize the terrible evil of torture—even in its temporary forms. Would the loving God of the Bible design an everlasting torture chamber? If so, He would have to witness—for the rest of eternity—the suffering of those that He had condemned to such a “hell.”

We might also ask: How enjoyable could salvation be for the saved, if they were forced to watch their children or parents—and other loved ones—screaming in pain and agony for the rest of time? Do you see the absurdity of this idea?

Yet millions upon millions come to this conclusion when they accept the beliefs surrounding the popular concept of hell.

Dante’s Inferno

Almost no one understands that it was primarily pagan poets who authored today’s widely believed concept about an underground, ever-burning hell.

Much of the tradition surrounding this subject came from Dante Alighieri’s (1265-1321) famous work Divine Comedy. In it, he described his view of paradise, purgatory and hell. Notice this quote from a book about his life, Dante and His Inferno: “Of all poets of modern times, Dante Alighieri was, perhaps, the greatest educator.

He possibly had a greater influence on the course of civilization than any other man since his day…He wrote, in incomprehensible verse, an imaginative and lurid account of a dismal hell—a long poem containing certain phrases which have caught the attention of the world, such as, ‘all hope abandon…ye, who enter here!’

This had a tremendous impression and influence on the popular Christian thought and teaching. His Inferno was based on Virgil and Plato.”

This makes obvious where Dante got his ideas. He believed that the pagan philosophers Plato and Virgil were divinely inspired. His fascination with the Greek philosopher Plato caused him to accept Plato’s ideas about the immortality of the soul as described in his famous work, Phaedo.

Here is what the Encyclopedia Americana says about Virgil: “Virgil, pagan Roman poet, 70-12 B.C. belonged to the national school of pagan Roman thought, influenced by the Greek writers. Christians of the Middle Ages, including Dante, believed he had received some measure of divine inspiration.”

Few know the true origin of the beliefs that they hold. Fewer still even wish to know! I have just laid bare the real origin of this belief. Did you realize the source of these ideas?

The concept of an ever burning hell comes from outright paganism. The fact is the popular version of hell has never had anything to do with the true teaching of the Bible.

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A Popular Scripture

Perhaps the most familiar and often-quoted verse in the Bible is understood by almost no one.

John 3:16 states,

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Millions routinely quote this verse, while ignoring an essential phrase within it.

Reread it… Those who receive salvation are promised that they “should not perish” but “have eternal life.”

If hell is a place of eternal torture, then the people suffering this torment must also have eternal life. But the verse says, “should not perish.”

It does not say, “Should not suffer eternal life in torment.” How does the word perish relate to the popular teaching about hell and hell fire?

Why did God inspire John to use the word perish if this is not what He meant?

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The Wages of Sin

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

This verse exactly mirrors John 3:16.

Eternal life is contrasted to death—to perishing! The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell.

God says He pays the wicked a paycheck of death—not life in a place of torment. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

It states that “scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35) and “Your [God’s] word is truth” (17:17). If we are to believe that the Bible is unbreakable truth, then we must believe that death means death and life means life!

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Do People Have Immortal Souls?

If the wages of sin is death, could the Bible also teach that people have immortal souls?

Genesis 2:7 says, “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

This verse does not say that men have souls, but that they are souls. Adam became a soul—he was not given a soul.

Then, almost immediately, God warned him,

“And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die” (vs. 16-17).

When placed together, these verses reveal that men are souls and that souls can die!

The prophet Ezekiel was inspired to write (twice): “The soul that sins, it shall die” (18:4, 20).

Death is the absence of life. Death is not life in another place. It is not leaving “this life” for “another life”—the “next life.”

Consider Matthew 10:28:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

The Bible says that souls can be destroyed!

According to this verse, they can be destroyed as much as bodies can.

We all recognize that bodies eventually die and that, when they do, they naturally decompose and are completely “destroyed” due to the process of natural corruption.

This verse introduces the understanding that God does the destroying of souls in hell.

Bodies can die and be destroyed in many different ways. However, souls are destroyed in hell by God.

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Are the Dead Conscious?

Notice Psalm 146:3-4:

“Put not your trust…in the son of man…His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.”

When people die, their thoughts end immediately—“in that very day.” That is what it says.

This verse is not compatible with the idea that the dead are consciously suffering in a place of torment. We could suppose that, if they are suffering, they do not have knowledge that they are.

They are unaware of what is happening to them. Ask yourself: What would be the point of their suffering?

It would be as though they were in a coma while their sensory nervous system is sending the tremendous pain sensation of burning to a dead brain. That would be completely illogical.

Now consider an even more direct verse:

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything…” (Ecc. 9:5).

To the honest reader, there is no mistaking the plain meaning here.

Solomon recorded,

“For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts; even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other; yes, they have all one breath; so that a man has no preeminence above a beast…All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again” (Ecc. 3:19-20).

Psalm 115:17: “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”

Death involves “silence.” This certainly does not square with any of the popular concepts of millions of the dead wailing and screaming in agony.

Such a scene could never be described as silence. And, if many of the dead go to heaven, why are they not praising God?

Psalm 6:5 further explains that the dead do not experience conscious memory:

“For in death there is no remembrance of You: in the grave who shall give You thanks?”

Could anyone seriously suggest that the dead, suffering in hell, could experience the normal range of human memories but not be cognizant of God—not remember Him?

Would God put people in “hell” and then leave them there suffering, forever wondering how they had gotten there and who had put them there—because they have “no remembrance” of anything related to God?

Here is why the dead have no remembrance of God in the grave.

Jesus said,

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation [Greek: judgment]” (John 5:28-29).

Christ understood that most would find this astonishing.

That is why He told the disciples to “marvel not at this”—He understood that most people would marvel at the thought that everyone who ever lived is now “in the grave,” awaiting the resurrection.

He said that “all” are in the grave. He did not say some are there.

The reason there are no conscious thoughts and no remembrance of God after death is that everyone who has ever died is currently awaiting one of the resurrections to which Christ referred.

All people will either be resurrected to eternal life or to judgment. That is what it says.

No wonder David said,

“As for me, I will behold Your face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with Your likeness” (Psa. 17:15).

David understood that the resurrection was an awakening—a coming back to life.

Like David, Job also looked forward to the resurrection of life.

Notice:

“O that You would hide me in the grave, that You would keep me secret, until Your wrath be past, that You would appoint me a set time, and remember me. If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. You shall call, and I will answer You” (Job 14:13-15).

Job did not ask that God would only hide his body in the grave.

He asked God to “hide me…keep me…appoint me…remember me.”

He also recognized that God would keep him “secret.” Ask yourself how being kept secret would square with being in heaven.

If that were the case, God would be pretty poor at keeping secrets and the rest of the verse would make no sense.

Now look at the question he asked—“if a man die, shall he live again?” If Job was going to still be alive at death, how could he “live again?”

He understood that he would “wait…in the grave” for his resurrection at an “appointed time” when he would be “changed.” What did it mean that he would be changed?

The apostle Paul wrote of a “change” that will come to all true Christians.

Carefully examine I Corinthians 15:51-52, 54:

“Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump…the dead shall be raised…and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory.”

It certainly is a mystery to the world that there is coming a change to immortality at the resurrection.

How can someone go from “mortal” to “immortal” if they already have an immortal soul? Do you see the foolish logic of men when they ignore plain scriptures of the Bible?

Just as Job knew that he would be “changed,” David knew that he would “awake,” and Paul knew that Christians will be “changed”—that they will awaken from “sleep”—at the time of the resurrection. At the resurrection, people will literally awaken from death.

Ask yourself: How can people be resurrected if they are already alive as immortal souls?

Only the dead, like Christ when He was in the tomb, need to be resurrected. That is the purpose of a resurrection.

Do not be fooled by deceivers who say that “the resurrection only applies to the body, since the soul remained alive after death”! You have already seen several scriptures disproving that fallacy.

Upon even the most basic examination, the ideas of intelligent men are often exposed as outright foolishness.

The popular concept of hell was devised by men as a means of scaring people into following the false religion that they had created.

The true God would never roast people for all eternity without allowing them to burn up, so that their suffering could mercifully end.

This is what a monster would do.

Humanly-devised false gods figuratively “do” and “teach” whatever the men who created them have decided.

Many billions have lived and died without ever knowing the name of Jesus Christ and without ever having an opportunity for salvation.

Are we to believe that they are now roasting in a manmade “hell” devised by pagan poets?

If the unsaved, upon death, go directly to hell, then well over half the people who have ever lived are there.

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Hell: Four Words

The Bible does speak about the subject of hell and hell fire in numerous passages. Christ referred to it several times, as did some of the apostles.

The prophets also mentioned it several times in the Old Testament. The Bible uses three Greek words in the New Testament, and one Hebrew word in the Old Testament, explaining the meaning of hell.

Let’s examine these words.

The Hebrew word translated hell in the Old Testament is sheol. It has a New Testament counterpart, hades.

The only reason we find the word “hell” in the Old Testament is that the translators of the King James bible replaced the word “sheol” with “hell” wherever they thought they could get away with it.

Actually, if you look up sheol in a concordance, it will reference the Greek word hades. They both mean “the grave, pit, world of the dead or hell.”

Hell is the tomb. In saying this, we have just discovered that all people do, in fact, go to “hell” at death. Since the Bible does say, “it is appointed unto men once to die” (Heb. 9:27), then everyone does die and go to hell—literally.

All people eventually go to the grave.

The word hades is the most common word used in the New Testament for “hell.” (Actually, some New Testament translations have exchanged the word hell for hades.)

Virtually all sources agree that sheol and hades are the same and that both refer to the grave.

It was only with the passing of time that the pagan view of hell, as a blazing underground inferno, came to replace this original intent of the word.

The second Greek word translated as “hell” is found only once in the New Testament.

Notice II Peter 2:4: “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.”

The word used here is tartaros and refers to angels, not people. It means “a prison, incarceration, place of restraint or a dark abyss.”

This verse describes the imprisoning of the angels on Earth as their “place of restraint” or “prison” after their rebellion during the pre-Adamic age.

Now let’s examine the third and final Greek word translated twelve times as hell in the New Testament.

Jesus spoke of it when He said,

“And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your foot offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched.

And if your eye offend you, pluck it out: it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:43-48).

This verse repeatedly refers to “hell” and “fire unquenched.” It also speaks three times of “worms that die not.”

In Matthew 5:22, Christ spoke of those who could “be in danger of hell fire.”

We have already examined another of His warnings to “fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matt. 10:28).

Christ describes destruction in this verse, not ongoing punishing.

In each case, the terms hell and hell fire are always translated from the remaining Greek word for hell, gehenna. It can be translated either as hell or hell fire. Understanding its meaning will explain the lengthy quote from Mark 9 cited above.

From Hasting’s Dictionary comes the following definition of this word: “Gehenna: the word occurs twelve times in the New Testament. This term ‘gehenna’ represents ‘the Valley of Hinnom’ (Neh. 11:30, II Kings 23:10, etc.).

The place was…a deep narrow gorge in the vicinity of Jerusalem, understood to be on the south side. It is repeatedly mentioned in the Old Testament (Jer. 19:6, etc.).

It became an object of horror to the Jews, and is said to have been made the receptacle for bones, the bodies of beasts and criminals, refuse and all unclean things.

The terrible associations of the place…the fires said to have been kept burning in it in order to consume the foul and corrupt objects that were thrown into it, made it an unmistakable symbol of dire evil…absolute ruin. So it came to designate the place of future punishment.”

Some of the bodies that were cast into this valley never made it into the fires burning below.

They would get hung up in the brush and trees on the ledges near the rim.

In describing the wicked, when Christ stated that “their worms die not,” He was referring to the bodies of certain criminals that were thrown over the edge of the ravine but did not burn up because they got stuck on a ledge. They literally rotted and decomposed where they were.

The maggots that entered their bodies completed the decomposition process without interruption from either the fire or anything else.

These worms “died not,” so to speak, because they later developed into flies. This graphic picture is part of the reason that Gehenna was such a place of revulsion to all who were familiar with it.

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The Lake of Fire

The Valley of Hinnom—Gehenna—came to represent a place of final punishment—a place of “absolute ruin”—for all who go there.

The reference to hell fire actually refers to the “lake of fire” described in Revelation 20:13-15:

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

All who enter this lake suffer permanent death. They suffer complete destruction—a final punishment that is everlasting—eternal—permanent!

It is not punishing but is rather punishment that is everlasting.

Christ understood this just as anyone that knew of the fires in the Valley of Hinnom recognized that the bodies of criminals and animals thrown there eventually burned up.

Jude 7 speaks of the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having received the “vengeance of eternal fire” for their sins. Those cities are not burning today.

What happened to these cities does not reflect a permanent state of visible fire burning for all to see today. Their destruction was eternal.

When those cities completely burned up, the fires went out. However, their punishment continues to this day.

It should be clear why Paul recorded that the wages of sin is death, not eternal punishing and torment in an ever-burning hell.

Most people have seen fires go unquenched. But they always burned out after they consumed whatever combustible material was available to them.

Read Jeremiah 17:27 and 52:13. Over twenty-five hundred years ago, after God warned Jerusalem that He would burn her with an “unquenchable fire,” if she did not repent, this happened, yet it is not still burning today.

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More Clear Scriptures

A God of mercy and compassion could never torture anything or anyone—let alone do it for all eternity.

Carefully consider these verses:

Psalm 104:35: “Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.” Simply take this verse for exactly what it says, adding nothing to it. It is consistent with all that we have seen so far about the fate of the wicked.

Psalm 37:9-12, 20, 22, 29: “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yes, you shall diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. The wicked plots against the just, and gnashes upon him with his teeth…But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away…For such as be blessed of Him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of Him shall be cut off…The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.” There is no confusing this description of the fate of the wicked. Also, note that the meek do not inherit heaven but rather inherit the earth. Christ quoted this same verse when describing the inheritance that true Christians will receive (Matt. 5:5).

Isaiah 66:24: “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.”

It was this passage that Christ quoted three times in Mark 9 regarding so-called “immortal worms.” These bodies will first rot.

Then, after they are resurrected, many will be cast into the lake of fire—where “unquenched fire,” which will burn them up, awaits.

“For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear My name shall the Son of righteousness arise with healing in His wings; and you shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, says the Lord of hosts” (Mal. 4:1-3).

Anyone who walks through a fire of any size, that has burned itself out, understands that there would be ashes under their feet.

This is the fate of the wicked.

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The Dead Sleep

The following Old and New Testament verses all describe the dead as “asleep” not alive in heaven or hell, but in their graves… until the resurrection.

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1 Kings 1:21 Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Psalm 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Jeremiah 51:39 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 51:57 And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

John 11:11-13 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth ; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

1 Corinthians 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

1 Corinthians 15:18,20 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

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CONCLUSION

So it comes down to two choices.

Either the dead “rest in peace” until either the first or second resurrection or they never actually die and either go to heaven or hell (the pagan hell of Dante’s inferno) where they stay forever and ever.

If you believe the first choice, the bible makes sense. The verses about sleep cannot be redefined. They are absolutely clear. And then the resurrections of the dead make sense as does the Great White Throne Judgment.

If you believe the second scenario, there is no need for a resurrection nor another judgment. Is God the author of such confusion?

So you can either throw out all the clear verses shown here and put your faith in some false interpretations of a few descriptions that kinda sound like a pagan place called “hell” or believe the word of God as clearly stated in the Bible.

From time to time we run across apparent contradictions in the bible. One or more verses seem to contradict one or more other verses.

In these cases, if we assume the bible authors haven’t made a mistake, then one set of verses must be right, and the others must mean something else. In the case of hell, the choice is clear.

There is no way to deny that the bible teaches we sleep until the resurrections. If not, there would be no need for any resurrections.

And it fairly easy to see how the descriptions of a fiery grave can refer to other things such as Gehenna or the Lake of Fire.

If not, then Jesus is a liar – teaching two different versions of what happens when we die.

Also in question here is the character of God Himself.

Do you worship a God of vengeance and hate who will torture men, women and children for the simple sin of never having heard His name, or a merciful God who can forgive the sin of simply being born in the wrong place, and giving the wicked a quick and merciful death?

For me, a God of love would never consider such an idea as “Hell.”


536 Responses to “HELL: Does it really exist?”

  1. […] here for […]

    • No way would I base my thoughts or beliefs on this Eisegesis: seen here for this author has not included many scriptures and thoughts and tied them together correctly, such as Jesus told us all God is not the God of the dead but the living, Mk.12:1-ffs. And if you look up the Greek Word for Judgment and destruction used here in these passages which speak of these things of God they are in the Eternal understanding of the things of God, as we too are made in His Image and are eternal beings who will have their immortal bodies joined to their eternal souls, either in the air or in that second resurrection unto eternal damnation, where the worm dieth not, which speak of man as worms, that comes from the dirt or earth of this temporary world as we know it to be, in its present state but this world is to be Hell itself the bottomless pit seen in 2 Pt.1:18, if we are going to translate something pertaining to any one subject we had better use every scripture and make sure they all line up with our Exegesis or we have used Eisegesis instead! The scholars teach us Jesus taught us more about Hell in the Gospels than any other subject; I do not necessarily agree with this but is if of a conscientious, that affirm this teaching.

      You see we will be with the one we serve, Jn.8:34 seen in Ro.6:16 as well. So if we serve sin, then our Spirit, will return to our Lord God who gave it Ecc.12:7 seen in Heb.12:9 as well, but our eternal souls that are made as His is, in His image that is Omnipresent, past, present and future will be with the very one we serve and follow, with out mind which is the seat of the will of man, and if God’s word is eternal so are the souls of them who cry out as the blood of Adam did and those who cry out from under the throne of God day and night wanting to be avenged, who will meet with the others who will die in the tribulations, speaking of His Elect the Jews who have to go through Jacob’s troubles. For Jesus has another flock too that must become one flock to one shepherd, Jn.10:16. There are those 25% that will hear the word of God and His seed sown to them and come full term and bear His fruits, some 30 some 60 and some 100 fold. We too have to wait till they all the nations have heard this gospel message before the end comes Mt.24:14, which has happened not too long ago in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYt8sv4vzQs,
      so we who are dead in Christ and have put on Christ Gal.3:26-27 at baptism in His name Ac.4:12 seen in Ac.2:37-40 and have separated ourselves as sacred Holy vessels unto our Lord by abiding in His every word, will be raised with all of the Israelites who have accepted Jesus as their Messiah and Mighty God seen in Is.9:6-7 that is of God’s doing! These will be the ten% needed to add to the 25% to make about 33.33 % that fell from heaven with the Son of the Day Star, Lucifer! This is that number that will make Heaven Perfect as it was in the beginning when He God our Lord Jesus made it then as well, seen in Col.1-ffs: 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

      2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

      3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

      4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

      5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

      6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

      7 As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

      8 Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

      9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

      10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

      11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

      12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

      13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

      14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

      15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

      16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

      17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

      18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

      19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

      20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

      21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

      22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

      23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

      24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

      25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

      26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

      27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

      28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

      29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

      Seen in 2 Cor.5:13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

      14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

      15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

      16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

      17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

      18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

      19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

      20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

      21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

      So that we may live together in Spirit and in Truth Jn.1:17 by His Grace which is His Spirit living in us as seen in Ac.10:44-48 and confirmed in Ac.11:1-18 that is of God’s doing for salvation to be found if Him alone, Jn.3:3-8 seen in 1 Cor.6:11 to be found justified!

      Or the flip side seen in 2 Pt.3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

      2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

      3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

      4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

      5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

      6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

      7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

      8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

      9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

      10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

      11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

      12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

      13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

      14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

      15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

      16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

      17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

      18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

      Even Jesus’ own words to us: Mk.9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

      43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

      44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

      45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

      46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

      47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

      48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

      49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

      50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
      Now I’m done. Whose word you going to believe man’s or the Lord’s? Read it in the Greek and see how the definitions and terms of the word are defined in their conjectures, N-GMS, Prep, N-GNS, Conj, etc.

      Lord’s Way Ministries International
      Rev. G. L. Boyett

  2. What would you say about these verses though? (Check below)

    I think apply this to eternal hell fire, torture etc. Correct me if I am wrong.

    9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

    10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

    11″And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name

    12Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    13And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

    • Well forever doesn’t always mean forever. Samuel was offered to the Sanctuary forever but forever in this case meant for as long as Samuel lived.

      The wicked who get the mark will have no rest because they don’t keep God’s Sabbath. It’s their smoke that ascends forever and for only as long as they burn. The wicked will be consumed, they will be turned to ashes and the saved will walk on them.

      • david

        question is how long does it take wicked to be consumed?

        seconds in a hot fire? or days or weeks or years?

        if punishment is instantaneous, and the soul is gone, then there really is no punishment for sin

        so why did jesus die for our sins?

        we would not suffer punishment for them anyhow.

      • Hi David,

        You said:
        “Well forever doesn’t always mean forever. ”

        It depends on the definition of the word that is used. In the case of final punishment, it always refers to unending punishment in a resurrected body that cannot be destroyed.

        You said:
        “The wicked who get the mark will have no rest because they don’t keep God’s Sabbath”

        The mark has nothing to do with the Sabbath, but is a literal mark. Even today we have people in business being implanted with RFID chips under the skin which controls security, access to business machines and the ability to make purchases. The very fact that that technology exists is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God’s word.

        You said:
        “It’s their smoke that ascends forever and for only as long as they burn. ”

        The phrase “the smoke of their burning ascends up forever and ever demonstrates that there is no cessation of burning for the resurrected body of the unjust.

  3. The question has a built in assumption that hell as a place in the present exists.

    I believe in a hell but my hell doesn’t exist yet. The surface of the planet will be a hell. They(the wicked) surrounded the holy city(New Jerusalem) and fire came down from God out of heaven and consumed them. Rev 20.

    • Hello again,

      David said:
      “They(the wicked) surrounded the holy city(New Jerusalem) and fire came down from God out of heaven and consumed them. Rev 20.7-9

      This is not hell, but is what will take place at the end of the millennial period when Satan is released from the Abyss. At the end of the thousand years Satan will be let out of the Abyss and he will go and gather from the four corners of the earth those people God and Magog and they will surround the camp of God’s people, the city he loves (Jerusalem) and God will send down fire upon them. This is not hell, but this is an event that will befall those who will have populated the earth during the millennial period in their mortal bodies and who will be consumed with fire pretty much the same way as Sodom and Gomorrah was.

  4. Hi Marianne,

    “The truth is that when we die, we sleep – rest in peace”

    According to what can be garnered from Scripture, “Sleep” is only in reference to the body. In contrast, the spirit/soul departs from the body at the time of death and goes to be in the presence of the Lord as is demonstrated from the following Scriptures:

    “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” (2 Cor.5:6)

    =================================
    “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.” (Phil.1:22-24)

    As can be seen from both Scriptures, it is obvious that for the believer at the time of death, the soul/spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord.

    ===============================

    In the event of the “The rich man and Lazarus,” the Scripture states that both Lazarus and the rich man die and are buried. Lazarus’ soul/spirit is taken by the angels to father Abraham’s side in that place of paradise under the earth, which was right across from Hades and separated by a wide gulf where the rich man’s soul/spirit was/is. Both their bodies were up on the earth “sleeping” which is in reference to the state of their bodies until the body stands back up again, which is what the word anastasis translated resurrection is defined as.

    We have other scriptural proofs of the soul/spirit as being conscious and aware after the death of the body such as the souls under the altar at the fifth seal, Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ when he was transformed, Samuel when he was called up by Saul. We also have the man who was crucified next to Christ of whom Christ said, “today you will be with me in paradise,” which would demonstrate that both he and Christ would have had to be conscious and aware after the death of their bodies in order to recognize that they were in paradise, since we know that their bodies both died that very same day. By the way, that place of paradise that Jesus spoke of was the same place that father Abraham and Lazarus were.

    Based on the information from the rich man and Lazarus, the wicked when they die, their souls/spirits go down to Hades which is that same place where the rich man went who was/is in torment in flame and where he will remain until the resurrection of the unjust at the great white throne judgment. Based on this information, the only true conclusion that one can come to, is that when the body dies it sleeps until the resurrection, where the soul/spirit is conscious and aware.

    • dmcal

      I agree there is conscious life after death.

      Jim, the author of the post, usually is up in the middle of the night and I hope he sees the comments made here when he finally comes back tonight

      to me, jesus died to (1) save us from the punishment for sin and (2) give eternal life.

      so to me, there is a hell where people’s souls are punished

      how long they are there is debatable i guess…..

      immediately extinguished, and ceasing to exist?

      where RESULTS are eternal….

      or longer, where the punishment is felt for eternity?

      • Well, if we look at the following regarding those who worship the beast, we get an understanding that their punishment is on-going, that is, their resurrected bodies cannot be destroyed in the flame, but continue to feel the torment:

        “A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

        The “smoke of their torment rising forever and ever and no rest day or night describes no intermission, no cessation of torment. Regarding the length of time, we also have to consider Mt.25:46 which says:

        “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life”

        Since eternal life for us means never ending life, then eternal punishment must also refer to never ending punishment, since the same word is used for both the righteous and wicked. Also, the word destruction when speaking regarding the unjust, is not defined as annihilation, but of complete ruin of body, soul and spirit.

        • it seems to make more sense that punishment is forever.

          if there is no punishment for sin, and just ceasing to exist does not sound too painful, then there is no motivation to NOT sin

          • I agree with you here Marianne. And regarding this, consider the following:

            “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

            Since Satan and the beast and false prophet are tormented day and night for ever and ever, then lake of fire cannot stand for annihilation. But the Scripture demonstrates unending torment in flame with cessation or intermission. These truths are made very clear in scripture, so I don’t understand why people have a problem believing it. Can you imagine if immediate annihilation in the lake of fire was true as some claim? That would mean that, after all Satan and his angels have done, their punishment would be over in a brief second. If that was true, then there would be no reason to have everlasting fire, because everyone would be burnt up the moment they were thrown in.

            • Test

            • dmcal

              yes, it would seem to be no punishment for sin, and jesus wasted his time on the cross.

              that he did not save us from anything.

              this is a serious subject.

              how people view hell affects their behavior…

              • Mariane,\if at the end of the millennium you were declared unrhteous for some crazy reason – lets say because you kept trying to get people to believe in Nibiru. Anyway,
                if you were in the crowd do people awaiting the Lake of Fire while others were dancing awaiting eternal life, would you consider that your loss of eternal life was a punishment, or just a take-it-or-leave-it event?
                And didn’t Jesus tell us to love our enemies? Do you believe He loves His enemies – those who reject Him? So how do you destroy an enemy which you also love? Pain and torture forever or a quick death? What would Jesus do?
                Just how evil and vindictive do you want God to be?
                Good question.

                • scritpure says, vengence is mine, says the Lord

                  it also says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a holy god.

                  he does not sound like a pussy cat to me.

                  there is a difference between being “mean” and executing justice

                  judges in courts sentence people to death all the time.

                  this does not mean THEY are evil.

                  it means the criminal is evil, and this is the justice system.

                  my eternal life is determined by god based on my obedience to him

                  you are saying there is no punishment for sins.

                  a quick annihilation is not punishment….it is a gift and reward.

        • See Dan.12:1-2; Mt.25:46, Jn.5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

          29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Ac.24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

          Is.66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

          Ro.9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

          19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

          20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

          21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

          22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

          23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

          24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? This too is seen in Ex.33:19 as well as Ro.9:15 & 18.

          Rev.14:13 those who seek God with a pure heart will see Him Mt.5:8 if they sanctify themselves His way, Jn.3:3-8 seed in Ro.8:9 as well as in 1 Cor.6:11, for those who live in the flesh cannot please our God, Ro.8:8! Hell and damnation rests upon their eternal souls unless they repent of their wicked way 1 Jn.5:19 and come to know who Jesus is as the I Am, Jn.8:58 that was before Abraham, as Jesus called out to them who will hear what thus sayeth the Lord to His Children called by His name, Jn.8:24 & 47 & 51, Lk.11:28 seen in mt.4:4 & Lk.11:28, 1 Sam.15:22-23, for obedience is worth more than all the sacrifices, of bulls and goats for sin, for even a sinners prayers unless they are for repentance are an abomination to our Lord and as smoke in His nostrils, Pro.v15:8, 21:27 and Prov.28:9, and will not be heard, let alone answered and blessed, that would be confusion, another abomination to our Just and Perfect God, Mt.5:48 that has called all of us to be as He is, 1 Jn.2:1-6, when He comes for us!

          Or the Hell and Damnation commandments kick into High Gear!

    • Very well articulated; I concur!

    • dmcal52 said this on September 26, 2015 at 11:40 pm:

      Very well articulated; I concur!

  5. I agree with Marianne on most points. There is no consciousness in death. It is Biblically referred to as “sleep”. The term “hell” (sheol or hades) simply refers to the state of death. The dead will be made alive again at one of three points. The first is the gathering together of the Church, sometimes referred to as the rapture, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. This will include all born again believers of the age of grace, beginning at Pentecost. The second rising is the resurrection of the just. This will occur after Christ returns with his Church, and will include all believers before Pentecost. The third is called the resurrection of the unjust. It occurs after the thousand year reign, and includes unbelievers of all ages.

    At the resurrection of the unjust, there will be judgment. The Bible states in Revelation 20:15 “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast in to the lake of fire”. Verse 14 refers to this as the “second death”. The fact that it refers to the casting into the lake of fire as the “second death” supports Marianne’s statements that annihilation rather than eternal torment takes place there.

    Many people believe that the rapture of the Church and the resurrection of the just are the same event. However, if this is the case, it means the Church will pass through the tribulation. In Romans, 5:9, it says we are saved from the wrath. Also, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul refers to the rapture as a “mystery”. It had not yet been revealed before. It was revealed to the Apostle Paul. The events spoken of by Jesus Christ in the gospels refer to the resurrections of the just and unjust but not the rapture of the Church. The fact that the Church will be gathered together BEFORE the tribulation period begins is part of our hope. We will be up there watching it rather than being in it.

    • Hello Richard,

      “The term “hell” (sheol or hades) simply refers to the state of death.”

      If what you said were true, how would you explain Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, the souls under the altar in heaven who were having a conversation with the Lord, the event of the rich man and Lazarus and Jesus promise to the thief crucified next to him that he would be in paradise with him that very day? And there are many more examples. Sleep/death always refers to the state of the body and not the soul/spirit.

    • Hi Richard,

      The first resurrection includes the following:

      * Christ the first fruits

      * The church at his appearing

      * The male child which is a collective name for the 144,000

      * The two witnesses

      * The great tribulation saints (Rev.20:4)

      Those who are not apart of the first resurrection are those who are resurrected at the end of the thousand years of whom the second death will have power over. Eternal punishment is exactly that, eternal. You need to take into consideration the rest of the words in the context “for ever and ever” and “no rest day or night.” This cannot be experienced if one is annihilated.

    • Richard said this on September 27, 2015 at 12:10 am:

      Do not forget about Rev.3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

      7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

      8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

      9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

      10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

      11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

      12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

      13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

      But them who are asleep, will go before us and we too will meet them in the air, those that Jesus went to preach to after His death, will come with Him, for they are already as the angels waiting to meet up with their eternal immortal bodies in the air, where we all will meet Christ Jesus, and go to the Feast of the Bride to Her Husband Eph.5:27 who have made themselves ready for Him, Eph.5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish! Of a pure heart 2 Tm.2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

      20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

      21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

      22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

      Who fulfill all scripture, 2 Tm.3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

      17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

      These are they who will live with the Lord forevermore, so will not they who are of the same materials that He made us of in the same circumstances bound for all eternity in the place designed for Satan and his followers? I believe so! They too will be right alone with him as well for we are to be as the angels as Jesus said in Mk.12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

      25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

      26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

      27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

  6. Me again,

    “In fact, the word “hell” simply means “grave.” It is “sheol” in Hebrew and “Hades” in Greek.”

    You are correct in that, Hebrew Sheol is synonymous with Greek Hades, that is, they are the same place. Strong’s and others define Hades/Sheol as “the realm of the dead departed spirits.” The word Hades is a combination of two words properly meaning the “unseen place.”

    In the OT there is a proper word for “grave” which is the word “Qeber” which is defined as grave, sepulcher, burial, burial place, graves, tomb. Qeber should be the correct translated when speaking of a body being buried. The equivalent in the NT is the word “mnémeion” which is also defined as a tomb, sepulcher, monument. In my opinion, neither the words Sheol or Hades, should ever be translated as “Grave,” and that to distinguish between the realm of the departed spirits of the dead from the resting place of the body.

    You might find it interesting that the word “Hell” is not even transliterated from either the Hebrew or Greek, but is possibly Germanic or Norse in origin, which makes me wonder how the word even got into our bible. Furthermore, there are three separate Greek words that are translated as “Hell.”

    Hádēs: (from 1 /A “not” and idein/eidō, “see”) – properly, the “unseen place,” referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

    Gehenna: (“hell”), the place of post-resurrection torment (judgment), refers strictly to the everlasting abode of the unredeemed where they experience divine judgment in their individual resurrection-bodies. Each of the unredeemed receives one at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev 20:11-15), i.e. a body that “matches” their capacity for torment relating to their (unique) judgment.

    Tartaróō – properly, send to Tartarus (“Tartaros”). The NT uses 5020 (tartaróō) for the netherworld – the place of punishment fit only for demons.

    Neither Sheol, Hades, Geenna or Tartaroo should ever be translated as “Grave” for the purpose of making distinctions between the place where the body is laid opposed to the place where the departed spirit goes.

  7. Hi Mariane,

    I believe that my last post went to your spam folder again. Could you see if you could find it, thanks!

  8. Me again,

    “Eternal life is contrasted to death—to perishing! The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell.

    God says He pays the wicked a paycheck of death—not life in a place of torment. The Bible says what it means and means what it says.

    It states that “scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35) and “Your [God’s] word is truth” (17:17). If we are to believe that the Bible is unbreakable truth, then we must believe that death means death and life means life!”

    ================================

    The above is all moot and that because scripture is clear regarding the final, eternal punishment:

    “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

    Kind of hard to down-play the definition of the lake of fire. The definition of death is separation from God and complete ruin of body and soul in torment in flame in the lake of fire.

    • Kind of hard to down-play the definition of the lake of fire. The definition of death is separation from God and complete ruin of body and soul in torment in flame in the lake of fire.

      But if you look at those words used they are described not necessarily as ending! http://biblehub.net/searchstrongs.php?q=destruction as seen here in this study: at this link, which word was used for your definition rendered?

      NT Greek Concordance
      Strong’s Greek: 3639. ὄλεθρος (olethros) — destruction …
      … Strong’s Concordance. olethros: destruction, death. Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου,
      ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: olethros Phonetic …
      //biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm – 15k
      Strong’s Greek: 684. ἀπώλεια (apóleia) — destruction …
      … Strong’s Concordance. apóleia: destruction, loss. Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
      Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: apóleia Phonetic …
      //biblehub.com/greek/684.htm – 28k
      Strong’s Greek: 5356. φθορά (phthora) — destruction …
      … Strong’s Concordance. phthora: destruction, corruption. Original Word: φθορά, ᾶς,
      ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: phthora Phonetic …
      //biblehub.com/greek/5356.htm – 19k
      Strong’s Greek: 1312. διαφθορά (diaphthora) — destruction …
      … Strong’s Concordance. diaphthora: destruction, corruption. Original Word: διαφθορά,
      ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: diaphthora …
      //biblehub.com/greek/1312.htm – 14k, each one has its own conotations: of the exact meaning used in that scripture and verse.

      • Hello garylordsway,

        Regardless of the link that you provided, I don’t do links, but I do my own studies and regarding punishment in the lake of fire, scripture says the following:

        “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

        Regarding the above, we have the word “eternal” used for both the righteous and the wicked. Now, if eternal life means unending life, then the same word used for the wicked would also have to mean unending punishment. Not only in reference to longevity and quality of existence, but in conscious awareness. In other words, if the righteous are conscious and aware in eternal life, then the wicked must also be conscious and aware in their eternal punishment. You can’t have one side conscious and aware and the other side annihilated, not existing.

        The following scripture also shows that punishment is on-going, conscious, awareness:

        “And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no rest day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his image and have accepted the mark of his name.”

        In order for the smoke of their torment to rise up forever and ever, one would have to be existing in order to experience that. Otherwise, if a person were just completely burnt up the moment they were thrown in, there would be nothing there to rise up forever and ever. Furthermore, to cement this in as being the truth, the scripture says, they will have no rest day or night, which would require conscious awareness in order to be able to experience no rest day or night. You keep offering specific words as a proof to support your claim, but you are missing the most important part, which is the context, that is, all of the other words within the passage that describe and support the subject.

        In another post, which I can’t find, you wrote the following:

        “One understands this better if they understand that soul and spirit are not the same thing. Soul is that which imparts life to the body. Animals have soul also. Soul is not eternal. It has no life outside the body. It dies with the body”

        I’m not going to pretend to be able to explain the difference between the spirit and the soul, for this is done by the word of God and there is nothing in scripture that would give us those definitions. But regarding this, the word of God says the following:

        “For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing of soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”

        Therefore, all human beings are created with a body, soul and spirit. So, whatever you want to call it, when a human being dies, their essence of who they are is intact. All that happens is that the spirit/soul (pick one) departs from the body conscious and aware, just like they were when they were in their bodies. If a believer in Christ dies, their soul/spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of Christ and there are many scriptures to support this. All we have to do is refer to the fifth seal souls under the altar in heaven, who are speaking with the Lord and who are given robes to wear and told to wait a little while longer. Lazarus and the rich man is another good example of conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after the death of the body. As is Moses and Elijah meeting and speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. To deny these, is just circumvention of scripture. In the following Paul said:

        “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. ”

        First of all, the language above would infer that when Paul departs from his body, then he will immediately be in the presence of Christ. Also, when Paul said ” I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far,” this would again infer conscious awareness, for one would have to be aware in order to know that it was better by far to be with Christ. In other words, the language here does not support Paul going to sleep in the earth, unconscious and aware, for how could that be better by far?

        Please save your attempt to try to present your oppositions regarding this topic, because I have done the studies and I know what scripture says about this matter. Since we have scripture referring to death as sleep and we have scripture demonstrating conscious awareness after the death of the body, there is only one conclusion of exegesis and that is sleep is in reference to the body only and that the soul/spirit departs from the body and is conscious and aware. Jesus told the man crucified next to him, “today you will be with me in paradise. It is obvious that both died that day and therefore, they would both have to be conscious and aware after they departed their bodies in order to experience paradise. And please do not make the claim that the comma is in the wrong place. That is the lamest circumvention that I have ever heard of. It makes Jesus sound like he’s doing Shakespeare in park. “Truly I say to you today!”

        • nope I was using some others descriptions and then I posted the correct terminologies, you though I was the one writing the other thing, I totally concur with all you posted above, and am inclined to believe this positions as well for that is what I preach and teach as well! We my friend are of the same understanding, on this topic, good day.
          Num.6:24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:

          25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

          26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

          27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.
          P.S.
          By the way all my links are educational to reference materials.
          Rev. G. L.Boyett

          • Hello again Gary,

            My apologies! I am so used to dealing with those who circumvent and distort the truth, that I seem to always be on “contend for the truth and accuracy of God’s word” mode.

            Blessing in Christ!

            • Thanks no problem, Marianne sent me a proper explanation on how to use her site which I did and it was not working properly, I have used this site many times and it was not working correctly for me for some reason most likely by the website managers took the day off or something on their part. I am so tired of trying to get people who do not understand etymology or philology in and of itself before they take on philosophy! Let alone Systematic Theology! Thanks for all you do here at her site, you are a better man than I am, I can’t deal with them, when you plainly show them that they are using the wrong chronology as well as the scriptures out of Hermeneutic Context as well as to whom the scriptures was being used for or the historical significance at that time.

            • most have a very good way of designing their own Eisegesis for their own beliefs as they worship a god they designed, that is no god at all, as warned in 1 Jn.5:20-21.

        • see this person saw that it was I that purpose the same things as you do as well:

          Arendale
          an hour ago
          Garylordsway, I agree that eternal means eternal and that death doesn’t mean the ceasing of existence. God said in the Garden about the fruit, “In the day you eat of it, you will surely die”, yet Adam and Eve only died spiritually “in the day”. I believe that the Bible means what it says about eternal torment and fire that burns forever. It may be hard to believe that God would allow it, but the Bible says it plainly, so what is one to believe.
          Your Servant and Friend in Faith:
          Rev. G. L. Boyett

        • I know one thing wrong with Marianne’s site is that the responses are not being added to the comments that they were supposed to go, under the comment they were intended to go.
          all those I wrote I concur with were for your site but they didn’t go there. We are of the same opinions. Ro.15:13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

          • gary

            the comments should go under the person you are responding to, as long as you go directly to that comment and hit reply

            you can see the comment string on the page, and the indentations under comments…

            they show response to a particular comment.

            perhaps you read a comment, do not hit reply, then type in the next comment space….????

            • I don’t know why it was dong what it was dong what it was, I am aware of it not working as usual for some reason I do not know why it was dropping down to a lower level, that is why I started using a part of the person’s own conversation to know I was responding to them only. I was a problem with the web-designers to be aware of. I was clicking directly below the very person I was trying to talk to, and it was not operating correctly for me for some reason causing dmcal52 to respond to me inappropriately, when all I was dong is agreeing with all he said, I replied to his statements with, “I Concur” but they went under someone else’s so I gave up, unless I used a part of the ones statement I wanted to address. If it sounds like I am just repeating myself I am, for some reason I have not been able to communicate with some people recently and it has caused some misunderstandings so I am trying my best to correct that situation, please excuse my audacity with my being repetitory.

              Lords Way Ministries
              Rev. G. L. Boyett;

              GaryLordsWay@aol.com

              http://garylordsway.wordpress.com/

              Face book at:

              https://www.facebook.com/garylordsway

              If you want to donate ask me and I will send you the link, just so you don’t think I’m after your money! Jesus takes care of me just fine, read Philip.4:1-ffs and see why, I too feel this way as Paul did as well!

              1 Tm.3:16 & 6:11-21; Is.60:1-22; Is.40:3; Mt.4:4, worshipping in Spirit and in Truth Jn.4:23-24, Jn.1:17; the One True God in Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, 2 Cor.5:19-21 so that we to can come out from among this world that lies in wickedness, 1 Jn.5:19 and worship the One True God Jesus Christ seen in 1 Jn.5:20; Is.9:6 who is the Mighty God! The First and the Last, Rev.4:8, who is the Holy Spirit manifested in the flesh, 1 Tm.3:16 because God is a Spirit seen and talked about by Jesus Himself in Jn.4:24; and when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the one who sent Him, Jn.12:45; for they are one in the same, Jn.10:30!

              Gal.4:16Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
              ~Even so, if I be persecuted for His sake, I find myself in good company, in the company of the Elect!~
              quote by
              Rev. G. L. Boyett

              (Isaiah59:1-21) The Lord will always have a prophet, for His generation, (Amos 3:7-8)

              Ecc.12:7-14; Ps.2:1-12; Is.55:1-13; Mal.3:16-18
              Contact points:
              You tube connection

              http://garylordsway.wordpress.com

              Face Book @ Gary Boyett (Preaching and Teaching point.) or at:

              Lord’s Way Ministries,

              http://garylordsway.wordpress.com

              Skype
              Gary.Boyett

            • nope had no problems before, just that day.

        • But how could they be in ‘paradise’ Today when Christ died and rose on the third day. He wasn’t even in paradise on the same day he died for everyone’s sins. So how could he possibly be saying the thief would be in paradise with him on a day when He wouldn’t even be there?

          • Hello Rahiib,

            The man crucified next to Jesus said, “Lord, remember me when you come into you kingdom.” And Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise. The answer to your concern is that, both Jesus and the man crucified with him both died before sunset, which would begin the next day. When they died, their spirits/souls departed from their bodies and they went to the same place that Jesus mentioned regarding the event of the rich man and Lazarus, which was/is Hades/Sheol, which is in the heart of the earth.

            Hades/Sheol had two areas that were separated by a great chasm/trench (Lk.16:26). On one side was a place of torment, which is where the rich man went to and was/is in torment in flame. And on the other side of the chasm there was a place of “paradise” where all spirits/souls of the OT saints went. This is the place that Jesus was referring to when he told the man “today you will be with me in paradise.” In support of this, remember that the rich man asked father Abraham to have Lazarus go and dip his finger in the water so that he could touch his tongue because he was in torment in the fire. Also, Abraham said to the rich man, “Remember in your lifetime you received good things and Lazarus received bad, now he is “comforted” and you are in torment. So that place where Lazarus and Abraham were was the antithesis of the place where the rich man was, which was a place with water and a place of comfort, paradise. Consequently, after Jesus resurrected, he took all of the spirits/souls of the OT saints who were in that place of paradise, to heaven with him.

            According to 2 Cor.5:6-9 and Phil.1:23, today when a believer dies, their spirit/soul departs from their body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware, where they are waiting to be resurrected in their immortal, glorified bodies. In opposition, those who die without Christ, their spirits/souls depart from their bodies and go to the same place of torment that the rich man went to, where they will be in torment in flame. At the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, the spirits/souls of the unrighteous dead will be raised out of Hades into a resurrected body and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment and will be judged for every sin that they ever committed, every idle word (Rev.20:11-15)

            So to recap, the place of paradise that Jesus promised the man who was crucified next to him, was that place of paradise which was across from the place of torment where the rich man was/is, the two places being separated by a great chasm/trench. Now, that man and the rest of the OT saints are currently in the presence of the Lord in heaven and are awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.

            I hope that this clears things up some and addresses your concern.

      • Garylordsway, I agree that eternal means eternal and that death doesn’t mean the ceasing of existence. God said in the Garden about the fruit, “In the day you eat of it, you will surely die”, yet Adam and Eve only died spiritually “in the day”. I believe that the Bible means what it says about eternal torment and fire that burns forever. It may be hard to believe that God would allow it, but the Bible says it plainly, so what is one to believe.

  9. Me again! It appears that my posts are all going to spam

  10. I agree God would never want us to be tortured, let alone for eternity. But I also find it hard to believe that people could commit crimes against others and make the lives of others a living hell on Earth and then they just get away with it. I think that when we die if our soul is light with sin we travel upwards towards the Heavens and if it is heavy with sin it travels downward towards Hell. I think Satan oversees the torturing and punishing, not God.

    If we didn’t live according to the Word of God then we are at Satan’s mercy. This is not God’s choice or doing, but our own. I know what the Bible says, but this is what I choose to believe, maybe because I unfortunately grew up surrounded by evil people, most of whom were also Atheists.

  11. dmcal52,

    One understands this better if they understand that soul and spirit are not the same thing. Soul is that which imparts life to the body. Animals have soul also. Soul is not eternal. It has no life outside the body. It dies with the body, as Marianne documented in her post.

    Spirit is a gift from God. It enables God to communicate with us. Not all men have it.. Romans 8:9 and Jude 19 state that it is available for men to not have the spirit. A man having only body and soul is referred to as the “natural man” in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Spirit is received at the time of the new birth when a person confesses Romans 10:9.

    When a born again believer falls asleep (dies), the body returns to dust, the soul perishes, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 . However, consciousness lies in the body and soul parts of man, not the spirit. Therefore, the person is not conscious until he receives his new spiritual body at the time of the gathering together of the Church

    • “Soul is not eternal. It has no life outside the body. It dies with the body, as Marianne documented in her post.”

      Everyone who comes into the world exists forever. It is the state of existence that defines eternal life or eternal punishment. The soul must certainly does exist when it departs from the body as I have already demonstrated with the rich man and Lazarus. Both of them dies and their bodies buried, but their souls/spirits were under the earth, Lazarus in a place of temporary paradise and the rich man in Hades, which is a temporary place of punishment.

      Richard said:
      “When a born again believer falls asleep (dies), the body returns to dust, the soul perishes, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.”

      Again, I would have to ask you to explain Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus, the souls under the altar at the fifth seal, Jesus’ promise of paradise to the thief who was crucified next to him and Paul’s claims of the spirit departing at the time of death to go and be with the Lord. Can you explain any of those things that demonstrate consciousness after death? Based on these and more, I am confident that once a believer dies, they immediately go to be in the presence of the Lord. Unbelievers, there souls/spirits go to Hades. This is what Scripture teaches regarding this subject.

      • Dmcal52;

        One principle in Biblical research is that unclear verses must be understood in light of clear verses. In the article which we are discussing, many of the clear verses on this topic were presented. The verses in question, represented in your post, represent the majority of unclear verses. Concerning Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration, this was a vision. God showed Jesus Christ a picture of them. It does not imply that they were actually present. In a similar manner, God showed the Apostle John a picture of things to come which he recorded in the Book of Revelation. It does not mean that these things were actually happening at that time.

        • Hello Richard,

          Richard said:
          “The verses in question, represented in your post, represent the majority of unclear verses. Concerning Moses and Elijah in the Transfiguration, this was a vision. God showed Jesus Christ a picture of them. It does not imply that they were actually present”

          Richard, I really appreciate people who are concerned with finding out the truth of Scripture, even if it means admitting to be wrong, opposed to those who ignore and attempt to circumvent information for the purpose of protecting their interpretation. In your response above, you claim that the appearing of Moses and Elijah was just a vision. The following is Luke’s version of the same event:

          =================================
          “About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, [talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure], which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem” (Luke 9:29-31)
          ================================

          Please take notice, that the above scripture states that Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus about his departure, that is, about his crucifixion. So please explain to me how two visions could be having a conversation with the Lord? Obviously Moses and Elijah were not just visions, but were their actual selves. Regarding Moses and Elijah not actually being present, Peter, James and John all saw them as well. They weren’t just holograms, but they were actually having a conversation with the Lord.

          Richard said:
          “God showed the Apostle John a picture of things to come which he recorded in the Book of Revelation.”

          That John was shown visions in the book of revelation is obvious and that because he’s being shown events of the future and therefore it couldn’t be anything else but visions. But in regards to Moses and Elijah, the Scripture supports that these two men were actually there having a conversation with Jesus.

      • As far as the thief on the cross, the problem lies with the punctuation. The comma found after “you” was not in the original Greek text. It was added later. The original text had no commas. The verse could just as validly read “verily I say unto thee today, that thou shalt be with me (in a future time) in paradise.” Jesus did not go to paradise that day. He went into the grave, to be raised three days later.

        • Richard,
          That is the proper interpretation of the thief on the cross conundrum.
          Most people don’t realize it, but most criminals were left on their crosses for several days, even taken down at night to sleep. All of more Roman viewing pleasure (and intimidation).
          Jesus was a “type” for how the whole death / sleep / resurrection thing is supposed to work. Jesus was the firstfruits. There will be another resurrection of the righteous when He returns, then everyone else at the end of the millennium.
          Also there is the Great White Throne Judgement – all those non-Christians and unworthy Christians will have to be judged and given a chance to repent their sins and accept the blood of Christ an receive eternal life. These people have not already been judged and sent to heaven or hell. If we are judged at death there is no need of the Great White Throne Judgement. If we go to heaven to live with Jesus, we don’t need a resurrection – we already have a divine body.
          We can either believe in death, sleep and resurrection then another resurrection followed by a great judgement, OR we believe we are judged when we die and go right to heaven or hell.
          You can’t die, be judged and sentenced, then be resurrected, then be judged again. That makes no sense.
          Read the passages about the dead from the article. There is no doubt that the dead sleep awaiting resurrection.
          But catholic bible translators who wanted to introduce the Greek concept of hell decided to tweak several verses to make them sound more like the hell of Dante’s Inferno. They even changed the Old Testament Hebrew “sheol” from grave (which it always means) to “hell” in about half the cases, just to fool people into thinking hell existed in Old Testament times. But just ask a Jew if they ever were taught about hell and they will universally say, “no.” They also don’t believe you go to heaven either. They believe when they die they sleep until the messiah comes to resurrect them.
          And guess who were Jewish? Jesus and the apostles. Jesus did not learn of hell from the Old Testament, or His family, nor from Plato. Therefore He never taught it. Plain and simple. All of the so-called proofs can be explained when the verses are placed in proper context and translated properly.
          If not, then the bible contradicts itself and the Jews have never understood their own religion.

          • Hello Jim,

            Jim said:
            “Most people don’t realize it, but most criminals were left on their crosses for several days, even taken down at night to sleep. All of more Roman viewing pleasure (and intimidation).”

            Scripture says:
            “Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.”

            So, that kills your idea that the bodies of Jesus and those who were crucified with him of being left on the crosses, for according to the Scripture above, they were taken down at the request of the Jewish leaders before sunset of the same day, which would start the Sabbath and the Passover.

            Jim said:
            “That is the proper interpretation of the thief on the cross conundrum”

            The claim of the comma being placed after the word “today” is just another rehearsed circumvention that I have run into many times. It is really very sad that people resort to this. As if Jesus had to tell the man on the cross what day he was telling him this information: “And I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise. Ridiculous!

        • Richard said:
          “As far as the thief on the cross, the problem lies with the punctuation. The comma found after “you” was not in the original Greek text. It was added later. The original text had no commas. The verse could just as validly read “verily I say unto thee today, that thou shalt be with me (in a future time) in paradise.” Jesus did not go to paradise that day. He went into the grave, to be raised three days later.”

          Richard, do you know how many times I have debated with people who claim the same thing that did above? These answers that are giving me are typical from people who are more concerned about circumventing scriptural information to protect what they’ve been taught and this comma theory is a common teaching. So, by putting the comma after the word today, it takes the emphasis off of being in paradise with Jesus that very day and puts the emphasis on when Jesus was telling him that information. You make Jesus sound like he’s doing a Shakespearian play. Why would Jesus need to tell the man what day he was giving him that information?

          Did you know that every single major translation places the comma after the word “You”? Here is how it appears in the interlinear:

          “and he said to him truly to you I say today with me you will be in paradise”

          Richard said:
          “Jesus did not go to paradise that day. He went into the grave, to be raised three days later.”

          Jesus body was placed in the tomb, but his spirit/soul went down into the earth. When Jesus died, He went to the place of paradise in sheol and, from there, took the believers with Him to heaven (Ephesians 4:8–10). The judgment side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8–10 and 1 Peter 3:18–20.

          In the same way, when the rich man and Lazarus died, their spirits/souls both went down under the earth, Lazarus in the place of paradise and the rich man on the other side in Hades in torment in flame. Now the common circumvention out there is to claim that the event of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable and therefore not a real event that took place. Is that what you are going to claim? These are all taught responses by false teachers, for I have encountered them many times. Parables use symbolism to represent the literal, such as wheat = son’s of the kingdom, seed = the word, harvest = the end of the age, harvester’s = angels, etc., etc. The information contained in the event of the rich man and Lazarus uses real people, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets, father Abraham and also refers to the real location of Hades. Therefore, the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, but an event that took place as revealed by the Lord.

          My advice to you, is to stop repeating the apologetics that you have learned from others and take an actual look at the information that I am giving to you, that is, if you are truly concerned about finding out the truth.

    • richard

      this is not my post

      author is Jim giordano.

      I am waiting for him to come and see comments on his writing.

      I am just filling in for him.

    • dmcal52,
      One understands this better if they understand that soul and spirit are not the same thing. Soul is that which imparts life to the body. Animals have soul also. Soul is not eternal. It has no life outside the body. It dies with the body, as Marianne documented in her post.
      Spirit is a gift from God. It enables God to communicate with us. Not all men have it.. Romans 8:9 and Jude 19 state that it is available for men to not have the spirit. A man having only body and soul is referred to as the “natural man” in 1 Corinthians 2:14. Spirit is received at the time of the new birth when a person confesses Romans 10:9.
      When a born again believer falls asleep (dies), the body returns to dust, the soul perishes, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Ecclesiastes 12:7 . However, consciousness lies in the body and soul parts of man, not the spirit. Therefore, the person is not conscious until he receives his new spiritual body at the time of the gathering together of the Church
      Richard said this on September 27, 2015 at 2:07 am | Reply

      http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/5.htm, there is a natural spirit or life, that is in the blood, and their is a Spirit of Truth, for the very word of God is Spirit Jn.6:63 and Eternal life to us who keep and abide in it, Jn.6:68 seen in Jn.15:1-27.

      God also said the spirit is in the blood in animals, that is why we are to pour it out upon the ground for we are made of the dirt, and ashes to ashes and dust to dust we will return, until our immortal bodies are ready for us to reside in them, which are immortal, either unto life or unto eternal death, which is separation from God, but death is not temporal but eternal in its nature just as life. The definition of death is incorrect here in most definitions by various authors, just as predetermined is misunderstood as well, by man’s natural definition of the word, rather than God’s eternal understanding, for as Calvin sees it, is once saved always saved, which doesn’t agree with the actual word of God and would take away the entire meaning of freewill in its entirety or Hebrews chapter 10-12 and Jn.8:11 and Jn.5:14 as well.

      So indeed a complete study on the etymology and philology of the word death needs to be looked into and determined in the actual word of God, for our clear understanding of the terms of the word “DEATH”, in my humble opinion.

      Here is a good place to start: http://biblehub.net/searchstrongs.php?q=Death
      Just a thought.

      • http://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/48-14.htm
        See Ps.48:14 For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death.

        To me; I see death as merely a dimensional change to a new realm, nothing more and that death is eternal in its existence as a state of being. Once in either in Damnation and Judgment has been pronounced upon your now immortal body and soul you are then saved and justified or your works do follow you as seen in Rev.14:13 and chapter 22 of Revelations: 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

        8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

        9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

        10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

        11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

        12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

        13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

        14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

        15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

        16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

        17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

        18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

        19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

        20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

        21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

        One or the other as defined by the very word of God.

        Let us all make sure not to be seen as those in Tit.3:http://biblehub.com/titus/3-9.htm Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

        2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

        3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

        4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

        5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

        6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

        7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

        8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

        9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

        10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

        11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

        1 Tm.1:Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

        2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

        3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

        4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

        5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

        6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

        7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

        2 Tm.2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

        16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

        17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

        18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

        19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

        20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

        21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, and prepared unto every good work.

        22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

        23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

        24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

        25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

        26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

        Let us all just make sure we have our names written in the book of live. http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/10-20.htm

  12. serilei said this:
    I think apply this to eternal hell fire, torture etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
    a. You would have to know Jesus Christ to Go to hell and that is not happening.
    b. The only form of Eternity is from God through Jesus Christ. Period
    c. Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather “”fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
    HELL here means = “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. = Destruction is correct – done away with. Only God can kill the soul. The Lord has no pleasure in applying Eternal life to a man that never ask to be born. He knew those that would choose Eternal life and those the did not want it. John 3:16 Why will YE PERISH. That does not mean Eternal life. You are done away and rot back to dust period. Man has his chance to be Regeneration but did not care enough to seek it out. He perishes. According to Jesus who said it many times. Jesus said = Why will ye die

    serilei — read this – Rev, 14:9 on
    9. Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
    a. The third angel is not the one that puts mankind into ETERNAL hell fire.
    b. As quote from above. God is the only one that will destroy = completely decays – a humans soul. You soul is your Nature which is your Character plain and simple. Mark of Beast is – having animal characteristics and appetites – Children of God who has His Mark = Have a Godly Character. = Christ is our best example of a Godly Character.

    10. he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
    That happening in ver. 10 is the war between Jewish/ Rome Empires.
    a. this also is talking of the Wrath of God – NOT ETERNAL punishment in fire. The Wrath of God is “destroying” the Seed of sinners with the Mark OF the Beast” If you have the Mark of the Beast you do not have Eternal life. You will die the 2nd. Death. It is mentioned 4 times in Revelations.
    b. The torment and fire was from the Battle of Jews/towards Christians – and then Rome completely destroying the Harlot City of Jerusalem. This is in your history books anytime you want to read it. Also we have many types of hell for Nations in the past. Moses led the Children out of Hell that was in Egypt. To live in the Promised land. Not a King with a Snake of his head as Pharaoh did. Jesus is wearing many Golden Crowns on His head
    c. The fire here is the great, great battle between Nations of men. In Revelation most of the whole book is talking about the “War of Armageddon” in the Jewish/Roman War which was classified as One of the Worst wars ever. It was so bad Jesus had to come First to save the remnant of the Jews and Catch the gentile bride into a Oneness with Jew and Gentile for a “New World to be born.”
    d. Then the World started all over again. With Jesus Christ Conquering all things and nations – Cause HE is King of Kinds and Lord of Lords. And Satan is bound to the real Christians. Ever since Christ Come in Headship in Rev. 11:15-19 Jesus Come period. Absolutely already come to be Lord over all the N.T. and nations of the World then and Now. In Johns day. He is writing this from the Words of Jesus Christ and is a witness to it.

    11″And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name –
    a. This is true- no sinner = Mark of the Beast – They have NO Rest day or night. Their torment was their lust turned into darkness and they become blind to Jesus Christ. And believed the Lie satan told them. Thess. 2:11-12 b. When you in aliteral war of fire, and brimstone that is what Rome did to the Most Holy city in the whole World. For them refusing Christ. Rome burnt Jerusalem down, them tortured them, starved them to death, and killed everyone that was a Jew or Christian in that War of Jerusalem and Rome. Everything was scorched earth, famine, and Death, Hell and the Grave = all means the same thing. DEATH === This is what the 7 seals were wrote for. For mankind to understand it all. About God and satan’s gospel.

    12. Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
    a. Yea they escaped in Rev. 12 by the Help of Holy Spirit that was with them as it was in Egypt just as Moses Spirit did through Christ in Rev. 11. And God hid them away in the town in the desert where the Romans could not find them. I think the name of the town was Pella. But I might be wrong on that name. And many fled to the mountains and all over Europe of that day. Remember their were 15 million Jews in and around Asia and Europe of that day. Remember on Day of Pentecost Peter spoke his for Gospel Message to the people. Their were usely millions in Jerusalem at that time.
    Same as the war started and ended in 70 A.D. Temple gone – Sanhedrin gone, everything gone.
    b. So all of this “”hell and fire”” from heaven etc. was a War – That John is talking about. He lived through it.
    c. Mankind only knows War – its forever war always with mankind. But “Forever ” is not the same as Eternity – You never hear the word – Eternity into Eternity. Jonah was in the belly of the Great Fish for 3 days and nights. He said he was in their “forever”. Forever has an end. Eternal does not have an end. Eternal is not made up of TIME ELEMENTS> Its a different Dimension than time. Rev. 10:6-7. I gave up my time to become Jesus Christ New Creation and that put me into “Eternity and out of time in my Soul man”. Can you see it dear brother. Yea that is deep but simple if you just read it again. My flesh is living in time now. But not my soul man or my Character. Praise God. By faith I’m already in Heaven. It possesses me NOW.

    13. And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘”””Blessed are the dead”””” who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”
    a. Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. You do that when you are on Earth . Your eternity was always in your life you just did not know it till you heard the Gospel. Then your nature changed from a Time element to Eternity by Celestial man that lives in you now. All else is death
    b. These days in the “”Change of Worlds like as in Noahs. As well in Christ World when He came the first time. And its getting ready to happen the 3rd Time. We are sitting on a powder cade.
    c. And as always millions will be killed and tortured and tested and tried. The only escape is found in Jesus. In history many thought dying was a sweet release for what they were going through. War IS HELL on Earth.
    d. It is from Satan completely. Satan is not eternal if you know what a Human being is that does not have the Eternal Spirit living in them. They are as the Beast of the fields. That is why Paul and Peter called them Natural Brute beasts.

    All the Seals in the 6th. Chapter of Revelation has been going on since mankind lived on this planet. Cain Killed Abel. For to Rule the world. Cain was a serpent seed. A murderer. Then Nimrod, on and on till now. All that was Death, Hell , and the Grave. Unless you were of God from the beginning.

    Gehenna is a good word to explain what Death, Hell and the Grave mean.
    Gehenna was a garbage pit that was full of death and hell and disease. It’s smoke was always burning and smoking and full of nasty garbage of corpse and rotting animals and mankind. Many a leper died a slow death, along with many other diseases in Gehenna. Wars and SIN always bring us to a place of dying out to either God or satan. God is Eternal life – Tree of life. The other is Tree of death. That’s it period.

    God is not the Author of death, hell and the grave. But satan = mankind is. Cause he will not believe God even exists and should have known it. Rom. 1. – Therefore their heart and soul are worse than even most animals are. The World is sick, But mankind still wars with mankind. Which brings sickness of war, and full of every lust of evil their is on this planet. THIS IS WHAT ‘HELL’ IS.

    Got to go
    Palisade

    • God is not the Author of death, hell and the grave. But satan = mankind is. Cause he will not believe God even exists and should have known it. Rom. 1. – Therefore their heart and soul are worse than even most animals are. The World is sick, But mankind still wars with mankind. Which brings sickness of war, and full of every lust of evil their is on this planet. THIS IS WHAT ‘HELL’ IS.
      Got to go
      Palisade
      beacon737 said this on September 27, 2015 at 2:42 am

      See 1 Tm.1:20 and the commentaries for these two blasphemers:

      http://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_timothy/1-20.htm

      See Ebonites and Essens doctrines, which are on the same path as the author of the above writings seen here:
      serilei said this:I think apply this to eternal hell fire, torture etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
      a. You would have to know Jesus Christ to Go to hell and that is not happening.
      b. The only form of Eternity is from God through Jesus Christ. Period
      c. Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather “”fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
      HELL here means = “Gehenna of fire”. This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction. = Destruction is correct – done away with. Only God can kill the soul. The Lord has no pleasure in applying Eternal life to a man that never ask to be born. He knew those that would choose Eternal life and those the did not want it. John 3:16 Why will YE PERISH. That does not mean Eternal life. You are done away and rot back to dust period. Man has his chance to be Regeneration but did not care enough to seek it out. He perishes. According to Jesus who said it many times. Jesus said = Why will ye die

      If I am going to use anyone’s references to ancient Christian History I will use someone who have a Doctorate after their name, such a one as this man’s:

      http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm

      and as far as teaching anyone let it be God according to His Spirit in us as seen in Ac.2:1-4, Ac.8:16-17, Ac.10;1-48 (Ac.11;1-18) and Ac.19:1-7, with speaking in tongues as confirmation and the testing of the Spirit that is in us 1 Jn.4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

      2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

      3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

      4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

      5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

      6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

      See Ac.17:10-11, if their history doesn’t line up with the Word of God you have a false teacher in your midsts!

  13. Best verse about hell

    But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all liars, these shall be a part of the pool burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”
    Revelation 21:8 CPDV
    http://bible.com/42/rev.21.8.CPDV

    • good one!

    • The pool burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death refers to the Lake of Fire. After all the souls that ever lived are resurrected at the end of the millennium and judged at the Great White Throne Judgement. Those that are found worth receive eternal life, those that are not, must be destroyed – permanently. If you die, you eventually will receive life once more – in order to be judged. But if you are not worthy of eternal life you receive the second death. There is no coming back from the second death as both body and spirit are destroyed… forever. That is the “eternal punishment” mentioned in the bible. Death is forever. And your shame will last forever. There is no eternal life with torture. God is merciful.

      • James, you contradict your own verse:

        Jim said:
        “There is no coming back from the second death as both body and spirit are destroyed… forever. That is the “eternal punishment” mentioned in the bible. Death is forever. And your shame will last forever. There is no eternal life with torture. God is merciful. ”

        In order to experience eternal punishment, an individual would have to be conscious and aware. The word “destruction” is referring to complete ruin of the body, soul and spirit and not annihilation. Consider the following Scripture:

        “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Mt.24:46)

        The word “eternal” is used for both the righteous and the wicked. Therefore, since we know that eternal life means that our life will have no end to it, then eternal punishment would also have to be unending. If a person is annihilated, then they could not experience eternal punishment. Consider the following regarding those who worship the beast, his image and receive hismark:

        “They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

        In order for the smoke of their torment to rise for ever and ever, the person would have to be present. It infers continuous, conscious torment in flame without being destroyed. Also, it is said that “There will be no rest day or night ” which means that for that person there will be no intermission or cessation of torment, which would also demonstrate conscious, awareness. To be clear, if an individual was completely destroyed, that is, annihilated, then they could not experience not having any rest day or night.

        Jim said:
        “God is merciful”

        Yes God is merciful, but not to those who will have died rejecting Christ. Once a person has died without Christ, there record is sealed and there will be no mercy for them. All of those who stand at the great white throne judgment will be accountable for ever single sin, every idle word and thought and punishment will be with no mercy mixed in.

  14. This verse is not mentioned either!

    The sinners will be turned into Hell: all the Gentiles who have forgotten God.
    Psalm 9:18 CPDV
    http://bible.com/42/psa.9.18.CPDV

    • It means the sinners will sent to their graves. Eternally dead. Remember hell = grave in every case.

      • Jim said:
        “It means the sinners will sent to their graves. Eternally dead. Remember hell = grave in every case.”

        Here is the definition of Hades by Strong’s:

        “hádēs (from 1 /A “not” and idein/eidō, “see”) – properly, the “unseen place,” referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.

        Hades and Sheol should never be translated as “Grave” and that to distinguish the grave which refers to the body opposed to the place where the soul/spirit departs to after death. Consider the following:

        “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. ”

        The Scripture above is clear in that, once a believer dies, the soul/spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. It is the body that is sleeping in the dust of the earth, not the soul/spirit.

        “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

        “I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far.” This also demonstrates that at the time of death for the believer, their soul/spirit departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord.

        “While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.”

        Lord receive my spirit = Stephen’s spirit departed and went to be in the presence of the Lord.

        When he had said this, he fell asleep = Stephen’s body slept/died

        This is what the true word of God teaches regarding these issues.

    • Jim said:
      “It means the sinners will sent to their graves. Eternally dead. Remember hell = grave in every case.”

      Yeah, tell that to the souls under the altar who are having a conversation with the Lord and who receive white robes and are told to wait a little longer. So, what is your next circumvention?

      • dmcal,
        The souls under the alter are not real, they are a vision given to John. They represent the victims of the first mark of the beast during the dark ages. It would soon repeat itself in his vision.
        As for Steven, and everyone, when the soul (body) dies, it goes to the grave (sheol) and the spirit (memories, character?) goes to God. These spirits are not people. They can’t think, see or speak. They are kept for us until we receive resurrected bodies. So perhaps, in a way, you might say a part of us does go to heaven when we die. To a giant storage locker in the sky where God keeps the spirits. But if you think you will be able to see and talk to your loved ones in heaven, you are mistaken. To be absent from the body is to be with the lord, true, but not consciously.
        And I find it presumptuous of you to say that sheol should not be translated as grave. Every Jew who ever lived translated it that way to this very day. You seem to know more about the Old Testament than all of Judaism. Every Old Testament prophet used it as grave, but that isn’t good enough for you. You insist on inserting Vatican false church concepts back into pure Judaism to pollute that religion also. What aren’t you trying to push purgatory, limbo and indulgences as well. It was all part of the same package. A trick to get people to come to mass and donate to the church.
        And the scam continues to today.

        • jim

          discouraging to live a good life, then find out it is for nothing.

          when I die, i want to “consciously” be with the Lord, not in a storage locker

          • Hi Marianne,

            And you won’t be in a storage locker Marianne, because scripture makes It quite clear that the believer, after their soul/spirit departs from the body, it is conscious and aware in the presence of the Lord. When the resurrection takes place, then Jesus will bring with him the spirits/souls of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected, glorified bodies. James has no scripture proof to backup that a persons spirit can’t see, think or speak. On the other hand, scripture does support conscious awareness after the death of the body for both the righteous and the wicked, as demonstrated in the event of Lazarus and the rich man, Moses and Elijah meeting and speaking with Christ on the mount of transfiguration, Samuel being called up by Saul through the medium, the thief of whom Jesus said, “today you will be with me in paradise,” and many other examples. People distort and circumvent these scriptures because it destroys the false teachings that they have been taught and have adopted as scripture.

          • Marianne,
            In effect, as soon as you die, you fall completely asleep. No tossing and turning, but totally unconscious. This is what the scriptures say.
            But when you awake at the resurrection, you will be rising to meet Jesus in a new spiritual body. You will not know you even died, other than the location. It will be instantaneous to you. That includes all of the Old Testament prophets and figures. Who knows, you may rise right next to Moses. Or David. Won’t they have some questions.
            So God’s plan is flawless. The dead don’t really experience death. They simply pass thru it.
            The real life happens after you die. That is the important life. Most humans who ever lived don’t know this. But God will still give them a chance since He is a just God.
            So really, you won’t “lose consciousness” when you die. In an instant you will be with the Lord, in the air.
            I hope that makes you feel better.

            • how do you be “totally unconscious” and NOT “lose consciousness” at the same time?

              • As I said, you go from physical life to spiritual life in an instant… but only to you. To the rest of the living, you may be dead for years.
                David has been dead for 3000 years, yet when he is resurrected he will fell like he was just on his death bed. It is like real sleep. Maybe sleep is a “type” of death, so we could relate to it.
                Anyway, the length of time we sleep is of no consequence. A year, a day, an hour or a microsecond. In the end it all feels like no time at all.

        • Morning Jim,

          Jim said:
          “The souls under the alter are not real, they are a vision given to John.”

          Rebut:
          Jim, most everything in the book of Revelation is a vision. The event is a vision that will take place in heaven in the future just like the other visions John is seeing. Your claim that they are not real is just conjecture on your part, as well as your reference to the mark of the beast existing in the dark ages. The mark of beast is a one time event that is still future. It is a literal mark that will go in the literal right hand or literal forehead. Your response is typical for those who have been taught and believe as you do which is to circumvent any scripture that doesn’t fit with your interpretations and that because it destroys your position.

          Jim said:
          “As for Steven, and everyone, when the soul (body) dies, it goes to the grave (sheol) and the spirit (memories, character?) goes to God. These spirits are not people. They can’t think, see or speak. ”

          Where are getting your information from regarding the spirit? Again, it is conjecture on your part and that because your position. Whenever scripture is presented to prove something, Amillennialis and preterists will, without even considering the information, just go down the line of proofs and began their rehearsed apologetics. The spirit/soul is the essence of who a person is. The body is just the shell, a container for the actual person. Regarding this Paul said, (oh, that’s right, you deny that Paul was chosen by God the Father as an apostle to Jesus Christ). Nevertheless, here is what Paul, a true apostle of God said regarding this issue.

          “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.”

          So, according to the scripture above for the believer, at the time of death the spirit/soul departs from the body to go and be in the presence of the Lord. And before you attempt an apologetic, notice that Paul says “we make it our goal to please the Lord whether we are at home in the body or away from it. Regarding this, it would appear that the spirit/soul is conscious after departing and that because, how could anyone please the Lord after departing if the spirit, as you say, are not people. How could we please the Lord if the spirit/soul can’t see or speak. In any case, that information that you provided is not scripture, but is pure conjecture.

          Jim said:
          “And I find it presumptuous of you to say that sheol should not be translated as grave. Every Jew who ever lived translated it that way to this very day. You seem to know more about the Old Testament than all of Judaism. Every Old Testament prophet used it as grave, but that isn’t good enough for you.”

          The word sheol should be used only to refer to that realm of the departed dead and should never be translated as grave, just as Hades should never be translated as grave. And the reason is to distinguish between the place of departed spirits/souls from a hole in the ground. By the way, the OT prophets were not privy to everything.

          Jim said:
          “You insist on inserting Vatican false church concepts back into pure Judaism to pollute that religion also. What aren’t you trying to push purgatory, limbo and indulgences as well. It was all part of the same package. A trick to get people to come to mass and donate to the church.”

          Sheol/Hades is a real location as demonstrated in the event of the rich man and Lazarus and are not the teachings of the Vatican. I do not believe in purgatory, indulgences or any of the other Roman Catholic rituals and beliefs, but speak against it. By the way, before you circumvent the information regarding the regarding the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, parables use symbolism to represent the literal, such as with the parable of the wheat and weeds. In the event of Lazarus and the rich man real names are being used, Moses, Abraham, prophets and the real location of Hades. That being said, both the rich man and Lazarus are said to die and they we see them in their spirits under the earth. The rich man can see, because he saw father Abraham far off, he can feel, because he said he was in torment in the flame and is conscious and aware because he is having conversation with father Abraham. Now, I know that you have a circumvention for this and that because it destroys your whole belief system and so you have to get rid of the literal meaning of it in order to protect your position.

          I’m so tired of amillennialism! One day soon you will find out that it is a false teaching.

  15. Marianne – You have given us so much to contemplate gathered here in one article. I need to re-read.

    I believe when we die we will understand other dimensions in a way we can not comprehend today, including heaven and hell.

  16. Best verse about hell

    But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all liars, these “””shall be a “”””PART””” of the pool burning with fire and sulphur, which is the “second death.”
    Revelation 21:8

    “””PART above””””” means”””” it has a “”Time Element”” to it period. Part also means a part due – God only knows how long you will be in His pillar of fire which will be Judged by Jesus Christ the Word of God is your White throne Judgment. It will still just be a “time” period.
    Yes when you die your soul will go back to God where it come from. And you will be “Annihilated” by the “ONLY ETERNAL FIRE” their has ever been. God is called the “”Consuming fire””.

    Jesus Christ Message called out to the people I give you LIFE Eternal = Zoe life. Why will you Perish = be done away with , rot, vanish. etc. You would have to have ZOE=Eternal life which only comes from believing in Jesus Christ and excepting His Holy Spirit and “””Fire””” to get your Character “Mark of God” working through and into you. That is the only form of Eternal life their is. Its a Born again Christian. The Evil man can never have Eternal life. It only comes from God. As on Pentecost day. If you received His Spirit you got the “fire burning you out all the rest of your life”. You are SEALED unto the day of your Redemption the Bible says that. This promise is NOT to the unbeliever but only to the Believing. Eph. 4:30
    It would be most impossible to have Eternal life being a evil man. Evil will be judged and judgment will be swift to the un-believers who wanted to Burn in His own lust and never give God nothing and or ever wanted to serve him.

    Just one more point – When Eve took part of the Tree of Death Adam knowingly went to her rescue and saved her from the life of sin=bride. Yet that appointed him as well to have to die for sin which was in the 2nd. Adam Jesus.
    It was appointed for “man once to die”. The Born again man only dies ONCE and goes to heaven. The Sinner man “dies Twice” and his “soul” goes back to God to be annihilated the “second time” – called the 2nd. Death. That is pretty simple to understand amen. The 2nd. Death is a literal plain word.

    Look at a human skeleton – legs together – hands stretched out — and also a head. It looks like a Cross. Then look at the tree limbs of the ribs of a skeleton. You will see a picture of a TREE. Christ died for your tree to free you. If you chose you can stay with the fallen tree or accept Christ tree that HE died on and be completely free from the Judgment of Fire.
    You will actually receive the “Holy Spirit with Fire” into you to Guide you away from Eternal death.= 2nd death. Your Body, and Soul had never ever accepted Christ mercy and Grace and love. Better receive the Holy Spirit than to just die for this world. With no Destiny.

    PS. Every Christian that has read this should shout for Joy that God put your name on the “Lambs book of life” before the World was ever born. It could never come off. And if HE knew that about HIS people. God also knew who would not serve him. Even though he knew they would not come to him He still gave them a choice and they could still have a good life just as a “dog”=beast has no Eternal life and can never enter into the City of God. Dogs have no interest but to eat and sleep and want to know other dogs. Its a shame human’s that has not interest in God whatsoever. If God is both Alpha and Omega HE knows it all. If HE is just Alpha then we could not trust HIM with our lives. Amen. If HE was Just Omega we still could not trust HIM. Because it both has to LINK together to become what it was going to be. thats deep but so True.

    When the Disciples called Human beings “Natural brute Beast”. When Jesus called the little woman bent over a “dog” – and she said well even the dogs eat of the crums of the Masters House. Her name was in the Lambs book of life. We are all just mammals in the beginning. Until Christ come into you. Then you are a precious Child of the Living God. I was 22 years old living like a dog myself till Christ Came into my life. I finally heard His Word speak to me in a Revival March 6th. 1970. I have never been the same since.

    So when you Hear the Word – “Mark of the Beast” – you should absolutely understand you was a dog – a beast before you became an Angel. All humanity became that was after Adam and Eve sinned. Only except for Jesus Christ. That ought to Humble any believer of thinking of their self as so great.

    Palisade.

  17. All I could ask myself while reading this article on hell is, “What am I doing in my life to help reach the lost?” May God grant us boldness to share His gospel with a dying world.

    11If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain;

    12If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?
    Proverbs 24:11-12

  18. I agree with the reasoning that God could not sentence people to eternal torment since He would have to be aware of their torment eternally and therefore could not possibly rest in the gathering of the righteous because He would also love those who are suffering.

    That said, I find it hard to believe that people whose sins have been egregious and severe, especially crimes against others, will just get by with having their souls or existence simply blotted out. The word ‘eternal/forever’ has to be scrutinized because though it may not always mean ‘eternal’ in the Bible, it sometimes does! God’s Word endures forever which literally means forever; if He says suffering is forever, it may well be the exact same word and meaning.

    I believe that God is just and fair and has found a way to work it out just as He has in every instance where people and Creation found themselves in a quandary. He knew before the Creation how everything was going to work. I believe that somehow, He has worked out this ‘forever/eternity’ concept so that everyone gets what they sowed and yet there are no loose ends in the end. I’m assured of two things regarding this issue:

    1.) I don’t have to worry about condemnation personally speaking

    2.) Since God is so urgent about the need for people to be saved, there must be more at stake than just the simple blotting out of damned souls. In the Bible, the disciples warned and strongly exhorted people to be saved AT ONCE, and those who were saved were to be water and Holy Spirit baptized AT ONCE so that they could walk in God’s will, work out their salvation, and continue to escape damnation! This shows a very real sense of urgency that is more than just ‘get them on God’s team’. If God is urgent about the business of saving people from damnation (that is what the disciples strongly exhorted the people to escape from; their message wasn’t just “Be saved and get to Heaven” but “Be saved from this evil world and its damnation”), then without a doubt, the reason behind it is realer than just having your soul blotted out. If damnation wasn’t a real evil to escape, then it would seem that God was selfishly just wanting everyone to be gathered to Him in Heaven. He seems more concerned, however, with rescuing people from a very real punishment than with getting them to Heaven. This is the testimony especially of the NT. Furthermore, this wrath of God that everyone is warned to flee and escape by all means just seems to me to be more than the blotting out of damned souls. Would God be so urgent to save souls if the only punishment was going non-existent into ‘blotted out soul status’? I highly doubt it. This is a thought to seriously consider.

    • Speaking of egregious sins, what ever happened to the Nazis at Nuremberg? After all their atrocities, what sort of horrific punishment did mankind release upon them?
      Hanging. Death. Cessation of life.
      They could have tortured them for many years. Why didn’t they? The jurors were Christians. They should have thought like God, right? So what would God do? Never ending torture or just death?
      It seems that mankind – even one that believes in hell – just could not bring themselves to torturing these animals for even one day.
      So perhaps we are more god-like than many give us credit for. We are content to confine the guilty of execute them. The courts do not assume there is anything beyond the grave. To them death is permanent.
      And so it is to God. The second death that is. All who die are resurrected, given a chance to repent, then to be judged and to either live forever, or die again, forever. Death is good enough for most human courts. It is no different with God. He gets no kicks out of torture. He loves His enemies. How would you punish someone you loved? Food for thought.

      • it would be a great burden, immense human labor, and expense to torture nazis forever.

        bible says death penalty..

        after that god deals with them

        • Right.
          And God uses death twice. The first death and the second death. The first death is temporary. It only lasts a second (to the dead). After resurrection there is a chance for repentance, just as there is during the first life. If you miss your chance in the first life, you get another in the second life. If you fail, you receive the second, permanent, death. A very simple system. Imagine the “burden” of having to torture billions forever. And how do you sooth all the loved ones who are saved? Ouch!
          No, God is efficient. Dead is dead. Over and done with. No mass suffering – for either the damned or the saved.
          That’s my kind of God.
          Yours may differ.

  19. Addendum: If God strongly warns people to flee the coming wrath, then either the coming wrath is really bad (which would mean that it goes beyond blotting out souls) or it would mean that God is exaggerating to get people to do what HE wants and not what is good for THEM.

  20. I returned to this after considering that these are the last days in which new and strange doctrines will be introduced. Any doctrine that does not encourage or promote godliness is a red flag and needs to be scrutinized. One such doctrine is “once saved always saved” (which makes Christians lazy and at ease when judgment is approaching their doorstep); another one is this new doctrine that I’ve heard not too long ago that says that eternal suffering won’t really be eternal. Aside with speculations and reasonings about God’s Love not allowing such a thing; let’s skip what the Bible says about this (since that can be misconstrued) and look at the seriousness with which the Bible warns people of God’s judgment.

    It’s said that Jesus talked far more about Hell than Heaven. Whether or not He did, the Bible is replete from OT to NT with warnings of God’s wrath. Prophets were sent to ward people of coming judgment. When the people didn’t listen and the judgment came, it didn’t linger on their porch and scare them out the back door; it overtook and consumed them or did to them just according to the warning. If this great condemnation (for the unrighteous, for Christians who turned away, for the wicked, for all who hate God) is simply the blotting out of people souls in the lake of fire, why is the Bible so extremely urgent about warning about it? Here are just three passages to consider whose warnings are with such tremendous gravity as to counter the notion that condemnation is simply the blotting out of a person’s soul:

    1.) “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead” (Acts 17). When Jesus died, rose, and ascended, lots of things changed one of which was that God was/is no longer winking on ignorance but now COMMANDS “ALL men everywhere to repent”. If judgment is the blotting out of souls, why such gravity? Is God just threatening people… or is He serious? Paul said that the only option now was repentance “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained.” Wait… judge the world by His standards? If His standards are so different from ours, do we think that our reasoning that He can’t allow people to suffer eternally can match up to His when His ways and thoughts (and righteousness and judgments) are far above ours? And why does God have to ordain a person as special as Jesus just to blot out souls? Is soul blotting a fine art in Heaven that Jesus must be the One to carry it out? Paul then said, “He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” Wow, this judgment is so severe that God had to give assurance of it by raising the Judge from the dead. I’m sorry, but gravity just revolves around all that. I have this lingering and very real sense that God, who sits on the throne and watches every single thing on this planet, is as serious about Love as He is about judgment: “the kindness AND severity of the Lord.” Is one greater than the other?

    2.) 2Pet. 2 (and Jude) contains the judgments of most gravity (in my opinion) in the entire Bible. These judgments are reserved expressly for ministers who misrepresented God and spoiled the people. (For those who think that God winks on that, remember Moses who did all but one thing right. His judgment was immediate; but today, the judgment ‘lingers and waits’ until ministers stand before God when it’s far too late.) Peter says of such ministers, “If, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.” If the end is blotting out of soul, how can one soul-blotting be worse than another?

    3.) Jude and 2Pet. 2 end by declaring of apostate ministers “for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever” (vv. 13 and 17 respectively). If some want to call that sleep, it apparently isn’t.

    Here’s the question: if God is going to put fallen angels and rebellious evil spirits (demons, etc.) in eternal condemnation or suffering, will He bend the rules for rebellious human beings? It doesn’t add up to me when Jesus plainly says, “Then He will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels’… Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Mt. 25:31-46). Is it eternal only when it’s life but not punishment? The fire was prepared for satan; if satan will be there for eternity, will human beings, who are to join him there, hold fellowship with satan only a few seconds till their souls are blotted out? On this point, speaking of fallen Christians and especially fallen ministers, Peter says, “If God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment… then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.” Is this judgment just God waking people up to tell them, “Because you sinned, I am going to blot your soul out”? Sounds much too simplistic.

    Why deliver people from soul-blotting as if it’s the worst thing that one could experience? It can’t be that painful can it? And why so many terms to describe soul-blotting? Can so many bad things be said about those who live in rebellion or disobedience to God to have their judgment be simply soul-blotting? I don’t know it all, but I sense great gravity in talk about God’s judgments, especially eternal ones, in the Bible and believe that it’s better to hold to the eternal punishment doctrine than any new thing that presents itself. I believe that God’s judgments will be as real and eternal as His Love, because His very Throne is founded on judgment (right decision-making or prerogative to make decisions) and righteousness (being right no matter what decision/judgment He has made). “Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22). People change their minds, but God never changes His. I’ll stick with the One who is constant.

    • God is constant. Until the dark ages of Christianity, no one heard of Hell. At least not Dante’s version of hell. The Jews didn’t and still don’t. If hell was real, the Jews would have been teaching it for 6000 years, yet it is only 1500 years old. (Read a secular history of the church – not a religious study).
      If God is constant, then hell is not from Him. It came from somewhere else.
      All you have is the word, which refers to the grave (or place of the dead) and the invented place of the same name. You link the two together as if that is what the bible writers were referring to but in every case there is a different explanation.
      Try to find verses in the bible where a writer describes hell as a place where the dead go to suffer forever. There should be some initial description of the place that doesn’t depend on Dante’s Inferno. God should have filled the prophets in on the place thousands of years ago, somewhere in the Old Testament. Find it! You won’t. If every Jewish scholar has never found it, there are no such verses. Hell requires knowledge that only modern man has access to. A novel of all things.
      Well we shouldn’t be surprised. Modern prophecy interpretation is based on a series of books and movies.
      People need to just stick to the bible and ignore outside influences.

      • Jim said:
        “God is constant. Until the dark ages of Christianity, no one heard of Hell. At least not Dante’s version of hell. The Jews didn’t and still don’t. If hell was real, the Jews would have been teaching it for 6000 years, yet it is only 1500 years old. ”

        Rebut:
        Or, God just didn’t reveal that information to them. They were quite aware of Sheol, as many spoke of it such as Job, David and many others. The Jews would not have known about the lake of fire and that because it was only revealed in the book of Revelation. Yet it is made perfectly clear in the NT that it is a place of continual conscious awareness in torment in flame where there will be no rest day or night forever and ever. This is the truth of what Scripture teaches.

  21. Bro. Arendale
    Because you sinned, I am going to blot your soul out”? Sounds much too simplistic.
    a. God blots out no one. Humans blot their self out of eternal life.
    b. Did not Jesus know that Judas was a devil to begin with.
    c. God is a God of Mercy, and Grace and love. But if any man will not love Him back Jesus will not force them.
    d. Remember Jesus knows the Beginning from the End. Alpha and Omega.
    e. By Foreknowledge God knows ALL things about every man or woman on the planet because He is the one that gave each person a Life and soul to live for. Either darkness or Light.
    f. God does not have to judge everything after its dead. He is Alpha and knows His end when born. Or God is NOT God. And we could not trust in His promises. I hope you can understand.
    g. Jesus puts on one into Death, Hell and the Grave.
    h. He came to bring all that would follow HIM to a Eternal life with Him.

    As far as soul-blotting –
    I believe according to the Bible O.T and N.T. That all humans were born with Gods life in them. good or bad. He gave mankind a free will.
    a. The free-will of man lets God be free from having to judge all that are born.
    b. Its pretty simple when you hear it enough. But its sad to say most people in Christians church’s do not understand Spiritual things that is for sure.
    c. Like I said in Post above. The only Eternal fire is the “Consuming fire of Gods Holy Ghost. That was the same fire that went with Moses and led all the children away from pagan-try.
    d. BUT most of them left Egypt but their “heart” never did. They were the ones whose carcasses were laying all over the wilderness.
    e. Did God do that to them. answer NO – they did not have any faith and loved their life more in Egypt than entering into the Promised land.
    f. Now maybe people can see it is NOT GOD that is sending millions of people to hell fire as we all say. All of us go through trials of fire and anger and lust, and pagantry, idols etc. etc. But The Overcomers Overcome it all. and their reward is Eternal life as promised in the whole bible.
    g. If we do not respond to the Tree of Life at some time in our life. Then what is God to do but let your soul die by the same Holy Spirit that was in man to begin with.
    h. I myself think that God is very Merciful to just let their soul die as would He an animal. They could never see the light. God knew they were blinded to begin with. That is why Cain could Kill his Brother Abel just over jealousy. His Spirit went into jealousy and he got mad at God etc.
    I. It was his own “free will” that made him a devil. He proved like Esau he never really ever love the Tree of Life. AMEN

    PS I almost gave up Christianity over the Eternal burning lake of fire. After 10 years of hearing it. And the Bible saying false prophets were ordained to go to hell. Eph.

    Let these 12 verses be an example Paul says to us all. Who put them into hell. God or themselves.

    1 Cor. 10:1. ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    2. And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    3. And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    4. And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    5. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
    6. ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
    7. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
    8. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
    9. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
    10. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
    11. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
    12. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

    Arendale I did read all your post slowly. And all other above. I do not just scrim over them. These subjects we talking about here are very serious to all of us who love Jesus Christ. The Word will set you free.

    It is just a shame to listen to all the people that think Jesus Christ is the Author of mans downfall. It is all “”mans”” doing when He decides to leave Jesus Christ for the world. You have to cater to Jesus Christ or cater to the world. The world will pervert Your Spirit man that you was born with. Jesus “”came and died and rose”” so that you could get back that Real Spirit man who’s Character is likened unto Jesus Christ. Not Adams.

    Palisade.

    • This is a doctrine on which I have to wait till I have light on it. I’ll just believe what it says on the surface of the Bible in the meantime. I don’t want to tell people the wrong thing; right now as it is, I never feel the need to tell people about ‘Hell’. The farthest I go is that a day of judgment is coming. I believe that if God says it’s something to avoid and escape, then it’s bad enough and doesn’t need to be expounded on. After all, if the Bible thought the exact specifics beyond ‘this is bad news’ needed to be apprehended, there were plenty of opportunities for someone like Paul or Peter or at the very least Jude to expound. I myself find that talk about judgment or Hell or the lake of fire doesn’t inspire or scare me towards God and good since its already in my heart to walk correctly; and while some need to be ‘scared straight’, I doubt that telling them that eternal suffering is or isn’t eternal is going to motivate them towards God.

      • You bring up an interesting point.
        I wonder how many early church preachers went to places like China or India and preached to them that they brought word of the one true loving God. And unless you place your faith in Him He will make you burn alive forever in extreme torture. So worship Him or else! I command you! What should these people have thought of such a loving God? Apollo and Zeus weren’t so vindictive. And Buddha was a sweet man. Kinda like him. So some poor Chinese farmer who never met the Christian missionary has to burn in hell forever? Billions of them? That’s what they deserve for being born in the wrong country. God seems to be quite a racist eh?
        These things just can’t be reconciled. At least most modern justice systems mete out punishment based on the crime. And torture is not (generally) permitted. But the punishment must fit the crime. That is only fair. But some people here think God’s idea is maximum punishment for everyone. Almost everyone who ever lived will end up in hell. Good. They ALL deserve it!
        Is that the character of our God? I certainly pray not. And I pray He will not be offended by those Christians who characterize Him in that way.
        I pray He won’t send them to HELL!🙂

        • For those who never heard of Jesus, God already has a plan. Apparently, they have to receive the gospel AFTER they die. (As much as many probably hate or deny the idea that people can be saved after death, what other answer is there for those who died before having a chance to be saved?) There are also babies and children who were aborted or died before they could be held accountable; there’s a plan for them to be saved too which, again, must be after they have died. The Bible says that man dies once (apparently, that doesn’t mean ‘once’ the way we understand it since several people in the Bible were raised from the dead– even in the OT– and therefore had to die ‘twice’ with the implication that one can receive salvation after death) and then the judgment. This obviously doesn’t mean that at death you’re rushed to the throne to determine your final destination.

          The doctrines of death and judgment are apparently unstable; but there are always more important matters to attend to than these doctrines. I never quite understood all the stuff in Revelation and prophecies about the end; but I well understand what I and Christians should be doing now. The angels said to the disciples as they looked up after Jesus when He ascended to Heaven, “Why do you stand here gazing into the clouds…” Jesus is coming back; that’s final. Why are Christians standing still (not doing what must be done now) and gazing into the future when more important things require our attention now. God, as He did through those angels, is always primarily talking to us about what we are to be doing NOW– the primary things– and not what is coming in the FUTURE which are secondary things.

          • Hello Arendale,

            You said:
            “For those who never heard of Jesus, God already has a plan. Apparently, they have to receive the gospel AFTER they die. (As much as many probably hate or deny the idea that people can be saved after death, what other answer is there for those who died before having a chance to be saved?) ”

            When making claims regarding subjects pertaining to the word of God we must have scripture to back it up. Therefore, please provide the scripture which teaches that people can be saved after death. I will save you the trouble of looking because you won’t find it! Faith is required for salvation, therefore, if a person could be saved after death, faith would not be needed. If what you said was true, then let’s all just continue living according to the sinful nature and then after we die, we can just receive the gospel and still have eternal life. Really?! Once a person dies their record is sealed. If they died without repenting and receiving Christ, then that person will be held accountable for every sin, every idle word that they committed. All sin, every iota, has to be accounted for. For those who have received Christ, he was held accountable for our sins on the cross. For those who reject him, they themselves will be held accountable for their own sins, for whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son does not have life. That right there kills the whole premise of being able to receive salvation after death. According to Scripture, there is no offer of salvation after death, but is a time for justice and righteous judgment.

        • Jim said:
          “Almost everyone who ever lived will end up in hell. Good.”

          Scripture says:
          “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”

          You are correct, there will be many who enter into destruction opposed to those who enter through the narrow gate. But it is not good thing, as God wants everyone to repent and receive his Son. This is God’s provision for salvation. If a person doesn’t do that, then they remain in their sins and condemned. Though he is a God of love and mercy, he is also a God of Justice and righteousness. When Justice is required, such as those who reject his Son and die in that state, from that point on there is no love or mercy, but only justice and righteous judgment.

          You can’t separate the teachings of salvation from punishment. The question to someone “are you saved” immediately should invoke the question “saved from what?” Jesus whole purpose was to save us from condemning judgment in the lake of fire. You can’t preach the gospel without presenting both salvation and the consequences.

      • arendale

        good thoughts/

        this page is here to make people think about what they really believe, so as they can defend their position

  22. Jim Giordano, I’m on my phone so don’t know if it’s responding under your post.

    Sometimes the best way to answer a question is indirectly. One reason why is that when we’re fixed on a belief, direct answers tend to accomplish little.

    You asked how I would punish someone I love. I’d hand them over to God and let Him deal with it. He’s meted out far worse punishments on mankind which He loves than anyone has on someone they love. You should again consider that His ways are not our ways and not compare Him to human courts. After all, which human being do you know would actually meet with his sworn enemy, without being under any pressure, to discuss how to punish or afflict someone(s)? Yet God, who is perfect and holy, has been recorded meeting with satan and fallen angels whom He cast out of Heaven, to decide terms of application and rules of engagement to afflict, harm, pressure/test, and kill human beings. (Refer to Job, to 2Kings in the case of Micaiah and Ahab, to King Saul and the evil spirit that tormented him, and to the disciples when God gave satan permission to attack and try to crush their faith where Jesus could then say, “But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail” just for a few recorded examples.) We humans wouldn’t confer or work with our enemies for a course of action; yet God has been recorded as doing so. On this fact, there’s probably no greater case for “My ways… thoughts are higher than [yours].”

    I met a minister who called himself an apostle; but I sensed that this wasn’t right. When I asked the Lord of this man was an apostle, rather than directly answering, “No, he isn’t”, He instead told me character traits to know when I met an apostle which was His indirect way of saying that that man was not an apostle. I’ll answer you in the same indirect way.

    The Bible shows us that God reveals things to us step by step, beginning with a foundation. If we don’t build the foundation first (if we don’t adhere to the primary things God has clearly revealed), then the building will be shaky (secondary and unclear truths such as an eternal life and death will continue to be unclear). What are primary truths? They revolve around our love/obedience for God and then our love for each other. Because God designed us, we cannot properly do secondary things if we neglect first things. This is why most Christians can’t (and often don’t want to) love anyone outside of themselves and their own interests; because they do not love God first. As John said, “How can you love God whom you cannot see when you don’t love your brother whom you can see?” When Christians neglect foundational things that are plain and clear, then grasping unclear truths and mysteries becomes hard. God reveals step by step; His Word is likened to a lamp that gives just enough light to walk a step at a time (Ps. 119:105) because “line must be upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little.”

    Jesus said that the one who has will be given more and that the one who invests what they’re first given will be given more. If the charge we’re first given is to love God and each other but we prefer to go after doctrines and become knowledgeable in truths, then we’ll be unstable, and what we think we have will be taken from us. As Jesus said to Martha on the point of first things first, “Martha, Martha, you are worried about too many things. Only one thing is needed; Mary has chosen that better part which will not be taken away from her.” See? So, it’s important to be stable but doing the first things first; God will add to the person who does first things first (like a builder adds the building to the foundation) but will take away from the person who attends to secondary things first (like a builder must pull down a building if, for some reason, it is built without first laying a foundation).

  23. Dmcal52, among other things, you said, “When making claims regarding subjects pertaining to the word of God we must have scripture to back it up.” That depends on what you mean by ‘scripture’. Scripture condemns many sinful practices in Deut. 27 such as adultery, homosexuality, even bestiality but doesn’t condemn pedophilia. In fact, nowhere does the Bible condemn pedophilia and several other evil practices… So, what ‘scriptures’ do we use to prove that such practices are wrong?

    The answer to this problem when you can’t find ‘scripture’ to confirm something that Scripture does agree with is in simply realizing that, as I like to say, “Not everything is written in the Bible, but everything is contained in it.”

    The fact is that the Bible talks about everything; but most of it is hidden ‘between the lines’ UNTIL the Holy Spirit reveals or literally unfolds/explains it to you: “The UNFOLDING of Your words gives light; it gives UNDERSTANDING to the simple” (Ps. 119:130). For instance, Ps. 23:1-4 spells out the entire pattern and blueprint for ministry to a particular and entire people group; but all we see when we look at it is the song of a supposedly young shepherd. The Bible says that God’s Word is alive; one of the effects of this is that He can use one verse or sentence tell a whole Book or chapters of stories which is what the Bible is. He can teach you several things out of just one short story or passage. That’s what happens when the Holy Spirit, who is charged with teaching us, begins to UNFOLD the Bible to us.

    As for salvation after physical death, you will probably not find anywhere it’s specifically written in the Bible though the Bible gives a lot of clues as to what it hides so that those who desire to know will have to prove it through pursuit: “The glory of God is to conceal a matter; and the glory of kings is to search out a matter,” as Solomon said. But if you’ll ask yourself several questions, you’ll begin to realize that either God is rigid and more Law than Grace or people do get saved after physical death. One of these questions is where aborted babies go and, if they can be saved, how that is possible. Another question is asking where people of other religions who never heard of Jesus go when they die. If they all roll into hell fire, then God is more Law than Grace; but if they can be saved, then it must be after physical death. The reason these kinds of things are hard to grasp is because they are secondary things. Till we have ministers who teach AND train people in the primary things, the secondary things will continue to be both unclear and of little necessity. (Eph. 4:11-16.)

    • Good evening Arendale,

      Regarding:
      “Dmcal52, among other things, you said, “When making claims regarding subjects pertaining to the word of God we must have scripture to back it up.” That depends on what you mean by ‘scripture’. Scripture condemns many sinful practices in Deut. 27 such as adultery, homosexuality, even bestiality but doesn’t condemn pedophilia. In fact, nowhere does the Bible condemn pedophilia and several other evil practices… So, what ‘scriptures’ do we use to prove that such practices are wrong?”

      I was speaking more in the line regarding eschatology since this has been the subject. But to answer your question, regarding sin, people don’t have to read something to know whether it is righteous or wicked and that because their own hearts will convict them. Even those who are perpetrating such crimes as pedophilia know that it is wrong without reading it or being told. Furthermore, regarding adultery, homosexuality, self pleasuring, being with a man or woman while not being married, etc., these all fall under the sin of sexual immorality, which God’s word does warn against. . Any sexual relations or activities not performed between a married man and woman is sexual immorality and therefore, a sin against God. The Greek word “Pornos” which is where we get the English word “porno” covers anyone engaging in any type of sexual immorality outside of marriage between a man and a woman.

      Regarding:
      “As for salvation after physical death, you will probably not find anywhere it’s specifically written in the Bible though the Bible gives a lot of clues as to what it hides so that those who desire to know will have to prove it through pursuit:”

      Without going into many Scriptures, I’ll just use this one Scripture that will cover that question:

      “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.”

      Therefore, if anyone dies not believing in the Lord, then they are lost. It is the righteous blood of Christ that covers our sins when we believe and therefore, anyone who rejects him has no payment for sin and are therefore condemned. This is why we are warned in God’s word to seek God while he may be found. A persons decision for Christ is a decision that has to be made in one’s lifetime, not after death. After death is too late and requires no faith and salvation is all about having faith in him.

      Re:
      “One of these questions is where aborted babies go and, if they can be saved, how that is possible.”

      Scripture says:
      “For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.”

      The above would include aborted babies as well. God is not going to throw a child who isn’t even aware of its existence into everlasting fire.

      Re:
      “Another question is asking where people of other religions who never heard of Jesus go when they die. If they all roll into hell fire, then God is more Law than Grace; but if they can be saved, then it must be after physical death.”

      Scripture says:
      “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

      “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people.” (Rev.14:6)

      “For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.”

      God will judge all people from all walks of history, race and language with righteous justice.

      Hope this helps.

      • Dmcal52, many questions still remain on the issue. Some are:

        1. How are aborted babies of unbelievers saved?

        2. Are those who are raised from the dead given a second chance at salvation or a second chance at damnation?

        3. Do people really die and then revive (NDEs), and if so, what does this say about salvation before or after death?

        4. Are those who die without hearing of Jesus judged by conscience (knowing right and wrong) or by their acceptance of Jesus as Savior? If by the former, then Jesus isn’t the only way to the Father; if by the latter, then their salvation must take place after death.

        5. When the Bible says, “It is appointed to all men to die once and after that the judgment”, does it neglect the fact that some men die twice and the fact that some will not die (such as Enoch and Elijah)?

        I think our definitions of certain words are problematic, especially here the way we define ‘death’. God said, “In the day that you eat of [the fruit], you will surely die.” “In the day” and “die” didn’t fit our own definitions. When a person physically dies, have they really lost all chance at salvation. Or are those who are raised from the dead given a second chance while others are not. This is like the issue of suicide where people say it’s always a first class ticket to hell. Really? Where do we get this in the Bible. The passages you provided don’t answer the questions about aborted babies nor about those who die without having a chance to be saved. Do you have a better way to explain how everyone must be saved through Christ but that God will judge those who died without Him with another standard?

        The Bible gives us glimpses into everything. It says that when Jesus died, He went and preached to the souls in prison. Even if people say that was talking about fallen angels bound in chains, the Bible also says that when He resurrected, many Saints of the OT also came to life AND that when He then ascended to Heaven, He led captives in His train. If OT Saints had to be saved the same way we do, how were they in Christ before they died if Christ was not yet sent, and how could they be saved if they were not living. On this, the Bible mentions a strange thing, saying that God is God of the living (naming physically dead OT Saints) and not the dead. Who then are the dead if they apparently are not confined to the physically dead. Sounds like just like at the very first use of the term, ‘dead’ is not confined to the physically dead but primarily relates to the spiritually dead. These have always been the ones who cannot (again, cannot) be saved.

        • arendale

          suicide is murder of self.

          murder is against god’s 7th commandment

          • Do you believe God will send someone to Hell who is under great duress and, in a moment of weakness, takes their own lives? What about a soldier surrounded by enemy soldiers who are going to torture him for an extended period who decides to instead take his life; will God commit him to Hell? Do you think that if a person doesn’t keep one of the commandments, it means certain judgment and Hell? You yourself know that this is impossible when you look at the commandments. But while we are talking about the 7th commandment, let’s consider some other commandments as well as the 7th.

            1. What is the difference between the first and second commandments which are so similar?

            2. What does it mean to take God’s Name in vain, and why is it so important not to?

            3. What does it mean to remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy?

            4. What does it mean to honor your parents, and how do you do it if they are unbelievers or abusive?

            5. What is the extent of “you must not commit adultery” when Jesus has nullified at least our definition of ‘commit’?

            6. How much must one steal before they are banned from Heaven and are doomed to Hell?

            7. What does it mean to bear false witness against your neighbor (who, we hopefully now know, is one’s fellowman and not someone living in your neighborhood), and how often can you do it safely before you are banned from Heaven?

            8. What does it mean to covet, and why would people be thrown in Hell (or have their souls blotted out) if they are really just wanting what someone else has?

            In the OT, God begins to define murder by a literal physical act of killing like with Cain and Abel. Jesus, however, continues to define murder but does not complete the definition when He says, “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not murder’, but I tell you, anyone who hates his brother (without reason)” is already guilty of murder. Then people say, “Hating someone is murder.” But Jesus let John, reasonably since he was ‘the apostle of Love’, complete God’s definition of murder who says in 1Jn. 3 that murder is not only physical nor is it only the intention of the heart but that it is also THE NEGLECT or absence of Love. John says that the Christian (or person) who sees his fellowman in need and has the wherewithal to meet the need but doesn’t, THAT person is guilty of murder. (Of course, Jesus spelled this out in the parable of the Good Samaritan in that the priest and Levite left the beaten man to die and so were guilty of murder but the Samaritan showed practical love which is the opposite of murder.) So, if “suicide is the murder of self”, is that what God is concerned with? Is God concerned with physical things and physical murder as He is with spiritual? The question answers itself. Men like David and many others through history physically murdered, and many did so maliciously, but God did not judge them based on their physical murder but on their hearts. God is looking for saved people: “Behold, You desire truth IN THE INWARD PARTS” (Ps. 51:6). The outward things count for very little with God who is eternal and looks on eternal things like the heart. Does God sentence a person to hell just because they broke a rule or law and killed themselves? In light of the real facts, the thought is almost heretical. If God judged by such physical things, then monsters and murderers and rapists and that criminal on the cross could not be saved. “Man looks on the outward appearance (what people do), but the Lord looks on the heart (who people are).” Many homeless people are selfish and just want to take; yet, God wants Christians to remember and serve the homeless. This is because He looks at the hearts of people and the heart of issues rather than the outward facts such as that man is homeless because he harmed so many people and it finally came back on him. Someday, the eternal outlook of God on the heart (of people and issues) will truly sink in for us Christians.

      • Dmcal52, now to respond to specific things you said, it’s not true that everyone knows what is right and wrong. There are cultures that practice cannibalisn and other evil things who don’t know that it’s wrong. There are homosexuals who don’t know they’re wrong. I was on facebook debating about homosexuality with a Christian who bends and twists the Bible to say that because God loves homosexuals, He is okay with homosexuality. Jesus told the religious leaders that BEFORE HE CAME, they did not understand that they were wrong, but that they hated Him because His presence made it clear that they were so. This gives us insight into how God judges people.

        If you’re sinning and don’t know it because you never met Jesus and you die sinning, will you be punished eternally for being ignorant? Isn’t it when Light comes that we are then accountable for our decisions? I have a lot of questions, because trite and cliche answers have never satisfied me. When I looked into this kind of thing, I found that it isn’t sin that God punishes; it’s REBELLION. If you go through the Bible, from OT to NT, you’ll be hard pressed to find a place where God punishes sin. God hates sin but knows we’re all given to sin from the Fall so thank God for Grace. But rebellion is when He has made plain to you the truth and you purposely harden your heart and refuse to repent. We see this very well in the religious leaders of Jesus’ day as well as in OT examples like King Saul to whom Samuel said, “Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft… Because you have rejected (rebelled against) the word of the Lord, He also has rejected you…”

        satan fell through rebellion and not just sin. Seeing that God’s issue is with rebellion and not just sin, it becomes clearer that He isn’t waiting to judge sinners but sinners who are rebellious and consciously refuse to repent. For those who are never given the chance to repent while physically alive, their chance must inevitably come after they are physically dead. God is God (Lord, Ruler) of the spiritually living, not the spiritually dead. The Bible is a mystery and says that God preordained the cross and those who would be saved. Is physical death really greater than God’s Grace? Throughout the Bible, we are shown that this is not close to the truth. Even in the OT the dead are raised, and Jesus continued as did His apostles; if the grave was not the end for Jesus, is it the end for those who He knew beforehand would be saved but weren’t while physically alive? If the dead are beyond salvation, then satan becomes greater than God if he can make sure no one reaches them with the gospel before they die. Even the question answers itself.

        • Addendum: I often learn things myself only when the issue is set forth. If God is God of the living and not the dead, if living end dead refer to the the physical, then that means that God rules over all who are physically alive as their Lord and rejects all who die including the saved. Is this true. Jesus said that God seeks those who worship Him in spirit. If God rejects the dead and accepts the living, it is very apparent that this is talking about the SPIRITUALLY dead and living. There’s just no other way around it if the Bible says He is God (Lord by choice) of the living but not God of the dead. Again, if Jesus defeated Death, the last enemy, can Death them defeat those who are inheritors of salvation but who physically died before they had a chance to receive it. The concept doesn’t make sense. Death for us humans is the end; but this is not true when it comes to God. Eternal Life transcends physical death. The question is what ‘death’ means as God defines it. We can see from the Garden that God defines death primarily as spiritual and not physical death. They call this in hermeneutics ‘the law of first mention’. This is specifically why Jesus said of at least two people who were physically dead (Lazarus and the 12 year old girl) that THEY WERE NOT IN FACT DEAD BUT ASLEEP (and is why people can be raised from the dead at all). We should therefore align our definitions with His.

          • Hello Arendale,

            While the idea of a second chance for salvation is appealing, the Bible is clear that death is the end of all chances. Hebrews 9:27 tells us that we die, and then face judgment. So, as long as a person is alive, he has a second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. chance to accept Christ and be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10; Acts 16:31). Once a person dies, there are no more chances.

            • Dmcal52, I could ask you endless questions which would help you see the actual facts. God said His Word isn’t hard or far off but that it’s near us, in our hearts and mouths “that you may do it.” Because He wants us to DO with His Word and not just retain information, He’s made it simple to understand; it’s our imperfect mindsets that prevent us from seeing what’s already clear. Here are just a few questions rather than a whole book of them:

              1. If one must indeed confess with his mouth to salvation, are the mute disqualified from Heaven?

              2. If no one can receive Christ (be saved) after physical death, how were the OT Saints saved since they died before Jesus was sent?

              3. If it is appointed to all men to die once and then be judged, how will men be judged who die twice (those who are raised crumb the dead) and those who don’t die at all?

              4. Who are the spirits in prison (not the land of the living) who Jesus peached to after He died, and why did He have to preach to them?

              The problem is in how you’re defining biblical terms like death, accepting Jesus, confessing Jesus, etc. The thief on the cross made no such confession, and we see throughout the Book of Acts that our notion of ‘receiving Jesus’ is foreign and rather than saving people has made nations of Christians who follow ‘another Jesus’ (the one they ‘received into their hearts’) who is not Jesus at all. On Pentecost and at Cornelius’ home, we see that salvation came when the people HEARD without the people confessing aloud or accepting anything.

              One reason there are so many denominations is that God, in His wisdom, wrote the Bible in such a way that there can be no perfect version; He wrote it sort of like people write code so that it can only really be revealed by His own Holy Spirit. No one can understand it without the revelation of His Spirit. But we’ve been reading and running with what we’ve read, not having the Holy Spirit ourselves, creating division from a God and Word that are One and whole. There’s no end to talking about beliefs. We westerners are descended from Greco-Roman ideals, therefore we prefer to philosophize and theologize than to do the work or practice what we already know. Best thing is to practice what Jesus told Martha and what all the wise know– to approach the things of God as little children who don’t yet know as they should know; THEN God will give us understanding of all things rather than just information, and we’ll understand far more than ministers and those who may have been Christians far longer than ourselves as Jesus made clear that God literally and purposely hides knowledge from most and saves it only for the childlike. For this reason, the Pharisees could marvel at the apostles who had no formal learning but spoke with wisdom and authority. (Read Ps. 119:98-100.) Don’t be worried about these lesser doctrines.

              “I do not concern myself with great matters nor with things too wonderful for me. Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul like a weaned child is with his mother; like a weaned child is my soul within me” (Ps. 131).

          • Good day Arendale,

            What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hades, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back upon the earth to warn his brothers to repent so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not.

            The point is, the rich man died and his spirit/soul went to Hades and I am sure that if one found himself in torment in flame he would be very motivated to repent and take that offer for that second chance at salvation. But there was no opportunity of a second chance offered. The rich man is still in torment in flame to this very day and will be resurrected out of Hades at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ and will stand at the great white throne judgment and the books will be opened and he will be accountable for every idle word, every thought and every action of his life, just as everyone else who goes into Hades. After that judgment, then everyone’s name not found written in the book life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is conscious, awareness, no rest day or night, forever and ever in torment in flame, in a resurrected body that cannot be destroyed, but will endure the flame. There is no annihilation of the body in the lake of fire, only continuous punishment.

        • Hello Arendale,

          First of all, you have to understand that, because of Adam and Eve’s fall, all humanity is guilty of sin and therefore are worthy of death, body, soul and spirit, for scripture says, the reward for sin is death. Therefore, regarding your question:

          “For those who are never given the chance to repent while physically alive, their chance must inevitably come after they are physically dead. ”

          Salvation is provided by God through his unmerited favor (grace) and therefore, it is not something that anyone is entitled to and you can’t earn it. If there were twenty people out on the street and a man was giving out twenty dollar bills, but only to five of those people and not to the others, would he be unfair in doing so? No, he wouldn’t, because it’s his money and he can give it to whomever he wants and withhold it from whomever he wants and that because none of those people are entitled to his money, but he is choosing to whom he wants to give it. It is the same way with God and salvation. God is the man with the money, the money represents salvation and he is giving it to those whom he choses. Even if there were people who never heard of Jesus (if there are any) they would still be guilty of and therefore condemned and that because they are guilty of sin.

          You are looking at salvation as though it were something that we are entitled to which is not the truth. It is God who saves those whom he chose before the world began. Scripture states that those who have been saved throughout history, their names were written in the book of life before the world began. Consider the following:

          “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have [been called according to his purpose]. For those God [foreknew] he also [predestined] to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he [predestined], he also [called]; those he called, he also [justified]; those he justified, he also [glorified].”

          Foreknew:
          proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, “before” and 1097 /ginṓskō, “to know”) – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of “God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them”

          Predestined:
          proorizó – to predetermine, decide beforehand, foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

          Justified:
          The believer is “made righteous/justified” (1344 /dikaióō) by the Lord, cleared of all charges (punishment) related to their sins.

          “”I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

          “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion.”

          God doesn’t offer salvation to everyone, only those whom he chose before the world began and wrote their names in his book of life. Remember, no one is entitled to salvation, it is given as a free gift by God who is the One who chose whom he wanted to save. Think of it this way, since the entire human race is dead in sin and no one is entitled to salvation and that because it is given by God through his unmerited favor, then God didn’t have to save anyone at all and no one could complain about it and that because we are all guilty of sin. But God in his love and mercy saved some, those whom he chose before the world began. Regarding this please consider the following:

          “The inhabitants of the earth whose names [have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world] will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.” (Rev.17:8)

          The verse above demonstrates that there were names that were not written in the book of life before the world began, which would also infer that before the world began there were names that were written in the book of life. The point being that God foreknew and predestined those whom he chose to save and wrote their names in his book of life before the world ever began. Oh, that’s not fair you say. Salvation is a free gift to those whom God chose and everyone else is still guilty of sin, regardless. God is giving out twenty dollar bills to those he chose and is not giving them out to others. Still not convinced?

          “It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.” (Rom.9:16-18)

  24. The following was not part of my original article. I include it now for those who are curious as to how the modern idea of hell came into the modern Christian church.
    .
    The Origin of Hell-Fire in Christian Teaching:
    .
    The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD. Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.
    The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. By the year AD 187, it was understood that life, once we have it, is compulsory; there is no end to it, either now or in a world to come. We have no choice as to its continuance, even if we were to commit suicide to end it.
    At the end of the 2nd century Christianity had begun to blend Greek philosophy —human speculative reasoning, with the teachings of God’s Word. Such words and phrases as ‘continuance of being’, ‘perpetual existence’, ‘incapable of dissolution’ and ‘incorruptible’ began to appear in so-called Christian writings. These had come straight from Plato, the Greek philosopher, all those years before Jesus. Other phrases used were ‘the soul to remain by itself immortal’, and ‘an immortal nature’. It was taught that this is how God made us. But this idea derives from philosophy, not divine inspiration. There are no such words in the Bible. It was Athenagorus, a Christian, but whose teachings, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, were strongly tinged with Platonism, who had introduced the teaching of an immortal soul into Christianity. In this way, he paved the way for the logical introduction of eternal torment for immortal, but sinful, souls. This was a hundred years and more after the time of the apostles, and came straight from popular philosophy. The apostles had consistently taught that death is a sleep, to be followed by resurrection. The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who also believed that death is a sleep, taught that the wicked are destroyed forever by fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire in hell for eternity.
    About AD 240 Tertullian of Carthage took up the teaching of an immortal soul. It was he who added the further, but logical dimension. He taught the endless torment of the immortal soul of the wicked was parallel to the eternal blessedness of the saved, with no sleep of death after this life.
    This came at a time when many Christians were being burned for their faith and it was natural for them to accept that their persecutors would at death be consigned to an ever-burning hell for the persecution they had inflicted on others while they went straight to eternal bliss.
    .
    From the third century the darkness of the infiltration of man-made beliefs into Christianity deepened until the Dark Ages had smothered almost all the light of God’s Word. At the beginning of this time, the first attempts were made to create a systematic set of beliefs. It is not surprising that an ever-burning hell and the immortality of the soul were prominently included.
    It is at this time that such beliefs, held by most Christians today, had their origin. An ever-burning hell has remained a commonly taught doctrine of the Christian religion to this day. It was not based on the Bible but on philosophy. Bible verses were later sought to uphold the ancient philosophies of the Greeks, and added to the teaching.
    Eventually under the influence of Augustine, AD 430, the concept of endless conscious torment was brought into general acceptance by the Catholic Church in the Western world. He taught that all souls were deathless and consequently the lost would experience endless fires of punishment, immediately upon the end of this life.
    .
    Purgatory and places of purification:
    Other pagan philosophers, along with some of the poets of the day, were repulsed by the immorality of this teaching, and developed the idea of a place where the fleshly body was purified by fire but, at the completion of purification, would find release. It was a middle way between heaven and hell. This concept had its origin in Persian teaching. From there it passed to certain Jewish groups, and later was taken into Christian thought and teaching.
    It arose out of the Gnostic idea that the body, flesh and matter, is inherently evil and must be purified and purged by fire elsewhere. But we know bodies can be exhumed for examination, so it cannot be true that the flesh goes elsewhere.
    A similar view was held in Egypt, with prayers and services for the dead and payments made to priests for them to intercede for the dead. The idea of a place like purgatory did not have its beginnings in the Christian church, but in ancient pagan religions. The foundations had been established by Augustine’s teaching of eternal hell. Purgatory was added, and later fully confirmed by Pope Gregory the Great, about 582. Purgatory could not be supported by the standard canon of the Bible and it was the books of the Apocrypha that were used to justify this new idea.
    A similar teaching appeared in Moslem and Jewish belief. The inhabitants of the world were seen as good, bad and ‘middling’. It was believed that, if one died with curable offences, these would be purified by pain and torment as a preparation for heavenly bliss. By 1439 the teaching of purgatory, with services and prayers for the dead, to spare them years of this pain, was fully accepted in the Western Catholic world – Italy, Spain, England, France, and was ratified by Pope Eugenius IV. It was not known or taught in Eastern Christianity, which was not influenced by Rome.
    It is sometimes taught that even the righteous go to such a place for a lesser time so that the stains of sin can be burned from them, and this can be greatly hastened if certain exercises are undertaken. At the end of this time any that are incorrigible are sent to hell forever and the righteous go to a place of eternal blessedness.
    Heaven and hell are seen to be existing together side by side forever and ever. This means that Jesus the Saviour can never see an end of the sin and misery He came to die for. Any teaching of the eternal co-existence of evil and good is not in the Bible, but is a teaching from Greek philosophy.
    The Waldenses who had fled to the mountains to remain free from the heresies that were developing in the Catholic Church and also to escape persecution, taught the sleep of death and instant destruction by fire at the resurrection of the wicked. Their persecuting inquisitors reported that they entirely rejected the teaching of purgatory. The Cathari and the Hussites also rejected hell, thus leading the way for the teachings of the later Reformers.
    .
    The Reformers:
    The Reformers strongly rejected hell and purgatory, because by this time the teaching had become heavily corrupted by the sale of indulgences. These were the payments made to the priests to reduce the years of purification spent in purgatory.
    Wycliffe taught that death was an unconscious sleep, as did Tyndale and Luther, (although it has to be said that Luther was not always consistent in his beliefs.) They taught neither hell or purgatory. They taught that ‘men are breath in bodies’ and not ‘souls in bodies‘.
    Calvin, however, taught that those who were sinners went to the eternal pains of hell at the time of their death and even denied a middle place or purgatory. The Reformed churches, like Calvin, have generally maintained a belief in an immortal soul and hell-fire, but do not teach purgatory.
    .
    The Resurrection and Hell:
    How do the concept of an ever-burning hell and the Bible teaching of resurrection fit together? Over the centuries there has been a blending of Bible teachings with the teachings of men. It was known that the Bible speaks of resurrection, and also of death by fire. The compromise view sees the body being resurrected and rejoining its soul again and then both being tormented together by fire.
    Athenagorus taught that a person can never die or come to an end; life is ours for always. He taught that we have been made intelligent just for the purpose of continuing life – even if it be in Hell. He also taught that a body is given to the soul, and we are born into this world to pass through this life as two entities. These two are separated at death but, at the resurrection, the body rejoins the soul. He taught that punishment must be given for sins committed in this body and so the body needs to suffer punishment also. During the period of separation from its soul it is said, the body is in the grave. He argued consistently that God made us to live, and therefore we live eternally even though it is a living death in torment.
    .
    What is the fate of the wicked?:
    The theologian Origen of Alexandria developed another, different view of the fate of the wicked. He postulated that the wicked would be forgiven and restored by God and so in the end all would be saved. There would be universal salvation. Some of his followers believe that even Satan will be saved.
    But there was yet another view, that of Irenaeus, who taught that the wicked would be destroyed. All trace of wickedness would be removed from the earth by a devouring fire.
    No second chance.
    The Bible is clear that our choice, for Him or against Him, is made in this world, here and now. There is no mention of a second chance in the Bible, or a time when all people will be changed and restored to the Lord. This view of universal salvation is also mythology that has crept into the Christian world. It gives a more comfortable picture than judgement and death, but a second chance is false hope. Its origin is in the thinking of Greek philosophy.

    .In Summary
    * There is no ever-burning hell with an eternity of torture.
    * There is no such place as purgatory.
    * There is no universal restoration of all sinners.

    This information is available from all sorts of secular sources (Encyclopedia Britannica et. al.) which are not religiously biased. They all record the same information. So how do you explain the conspiracy theory that every history book has been infiltrated with spies who rewrote history to confirm their view of the bible? Either the church made up hell or all our history books are wrong.
    Anyway, this article can be the start of more research on your part. There are many more just like it.

  25. On a lighter note, a friend emailed me this today. So much undiscovered mystery in the world (just as in God’s Word).

  26. To all
    Just Taking the Word as it says – nothing added –
    There are 1,126 mortal men scriptures in the O.T.

    Gen 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began “MEN” to call upon the name of the LORD.
    “Men” mean Mortal
    582 ‘enowsh from 605;
    1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
    1a) of an individual
    1b) men (collective)
    1c) man, mankind

    “”605””” ‘anash {aw-nash’} primitive root
    1) to be weak, sick, frail- 1a2) to be sick – desperate, incurable, desperately wicked, woeful, very sick 1b) to be sick

    Yea they were all under the curse of Adam

    JOHN 6:47 † Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting “life”. = Life is zoe
    JOHN 6:48 – I am that bread of life.- Life is zoe
    JOHN 6:49- Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and (are dead.) spiritually and maturely-
    Dead defined 1a) of the natural death of man
    1b) of the violent death of man or animals
    1c) to perish by means of something
    1d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
    2a) of eternal death, 2b) of mortal death

    JOHN 6:50- This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and “not die”.
    John 6:50 – Die defined-
    5053 teleutao from a presumed derivative of 5055;
    AV — die )– be dead — decrease
    1) to finish, bring to and end, close
    2) to have an end or close, come to an end

    JOHN 6:51- I am the “living bread” which “came down from heaven”: if any man “eat of this bread”, he shall “live for ever”: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the Life of the world.
    1. This is simple – God gave eternal life to all in the world. BUT they would not receive it at all. So they chose the life of a Sinner and never stepped into Eternal life = Zoe.
    2. They actually are walking in death, hell, and the grave and do not know it. Their Gehenna was in this life only. = the first 4 Seals of mankind’s way.
    3.The soul that sinneth will surely DIE – done away with.
    4. This is why Jesus Christ had to come in His day and Our day. To Seal up His own children by the Holy Spirit. Which is His “Seal of God” which is to the Martyrs of God of all ages. Its to simple for most to believe.
    5. The 7th. Seal is Gods judgment for Eternal life Children. But the wrath on earth to satans children is eternal death cause that is all they ever had. The sinners judgment is the 2nd. death to the immortal seed that they could have had. We were all born with 2 seeds in us to live by. But satans flock refused it out right. Taking their selves to hell. Not Jesus sending them their. Nothing can take away your “Seal of God” off of you. Its for Eternity of LIFE. As the “Mark of death=beast” is eternal only in being DEAD to Jesus Message of forgiveness. And not receiving Eternal life. Jesus said they came out of Egypt but never entered the “promised land and died in their sin and unbelief”. He is warning us all now the same thing. They never every had it to begin with. They loved Egypt more than the Promised land.
    6. People have to make their own decisions of Heaven or Hell. Hell is on earth. This is were we all die first with disease, fornication’s, murder, wrath, idolatry etc. etc. Then the Judgment which is already been settled by the Word of God = The 2nd. death is for sinners only. Their seed rots back to the clay were they came from. Their soul is no more.
    7. Yes Jesus gave His life for the world but HE also knew the World has a whole would never receive it. He died for His Bride only. Just like Adam did for Eve.

    JOHN 6:52- The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    JOHN 6:53- Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. –zoe=eternal life

    JOHN 6:54- Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood,“””hath eternal life“””; and I will raise him up at the last day.
    1. Your first death is your Rapture into the New Creation of God. While on earth. Now the 2nd death is no more for the child of god. We only die once. We already have ZOE life in us. We just cross right on over the Jordon of eternal death.
    2. We started our Rapture at our New Birth, Then we like a marriage keep enrapturing , and rapturing till we are like Jesus Christ In all His Character.
    3. Our last rapture will be the resurrection. Jesus Said HE is THE RESURRECTION – in seconds we will be with the Heavenly host. Cause we do not have to have a Judgment. Our judgment was while on earth as well.
    Its the Word of God the Great White pure Throne of God.

    The O.T and the N.T say the same thing. About the mortality of mankind.

    Palisade

    • Denise,
      You have brought up a very deep subject. I have often pondered the same things.
      As far as God hearing our prayers goes, I’m sure he hears them but obviously he can not grant every prayer wish from every person on earth. But prayer miracles are well documented, so obviously prayers work… sometimes. But we will never understand why some prayers seem to be answered and others are not. Obviously a prayer for a football team or the roll of the dice will be ignored. People pray for the sick all the time, yet they die anyway. Well, God can’t keep everyone alive forever.
      So what is God’s agenda about prayer? I can’t say for sure but I have a guess. I have come to realize that the short time we spend as humans is nothing in the big picture. Our real life starts when we die, and are resurrected into the kingdom of God. That’s when life really begins. Believe me, when that happens whatever went on in your mortal life will be forgotten. So everything we do on earth goes to forming our future life. I think of prayers as just spending quality time with God. That is what the Sabbath day was created for. It is the day when God holds His office hours. Spending quality time with God will earn points in the kingdom of heaven on earth and beyond. It will bring us closer physically to Jesus in the millennium kingdom.
      So don be despaired if God doesn’t seem to answer your prayers while here on earth, in this life. He will make up for it in the next world. So don’t give up. Pray even more and harder in fact. God loves it when you pray to Him. He may feel sad that He can’t grant your every prayer and sadder that that puzzles and saddens you. But believe me, He appreciates avery pray and all the time you spend with Him, so don’t give up.
      My motto is, “Life sucks, then you die.” And then you are born again, in paradise. How sweet is that!
      So try to live life in the future, not the present. And not this future, but God’s future. why do you think the Christians that were thrown to the lions went in smiling? They knew their future was near at hand.
      Bless.

      • Jim – Is our path to heaven or to hell, our future, already written? Or do we, through prayer, affect our final outcome?

        I believe both to be true.

        My mind is wanting to understand how.

        For me, I may not get the answer to the question I am asking, but, perhaps, might be given an answer to a question I wasn’t asking, one which may be more important to knowing than the one being asked.

        When you say, “Spending quality time with God will earn points in the kingdom of heaven on earth and beyond.” I don’t believe it is a point system that we live in. If our future is already set, points have no place or meaning. If it is our prayers that matter, then it is about what is in our heart. I don’t pray to earn favor, prayer is a most personal time with God, for me. I try to form my prayer around a situation in wanting to do His will and become more like Him in my actions here on earth.

  27. Regarding heaven and hell, I have a question, to which the answer is probably before me, staring me in the face. But here it is. I am struggling again with my relationship to faith and prayer, as I do from time to time, and ultimately my relationship to our Lord – not THAT it exists, but HOW – and WHERE I – (the little “i” of “me”) – have any affect in shaping it:

    How do we affect God’s actions towards us or others, do our prayers really matter? Can we change how God will act or respond in a situation or towards specific people? Does God hear us and change in the moment, from what was going to happen, to a new moment based on our faith and prayer? Can we change our destiny of heading towards hell, and change direction toward heaven?

    If God is aware of everything that was, that is, and all that will be, . . .
    That God knows all and everything, every one, before this world ever began, the souls that will be saved, and those who will not, . . .
    . . . including all of those who have second, third, and fourth “chances” …
    If our fate is already sealed in the Book of Life, or not, . . .
    . . . can we influence the future, changing our own fate, change what is in the Book by changing our actions and / or beliefs . . .
    . . . or, are we simply following the path that God already knows we will take?

    If we can change course, and God already knows our choice of change, then our fate is pre-destined, and, we really don’t have much to do with where we are on our path. God already knows. Is this where our faith comes in, or, does faith matter?

    Of course,

    I know (feel deeply) prayer matters.
    I know (in the middle of the leap) faith matters.
    I believe (presume) heaven vs. hell matters.

    But, if everything has already happened, if we are simply filling in our spot, simply occupying space that has already been determined, already happened, am I just being, in a moment, moment by moment, a part of what has already been?

    If the choices that I think I make are actually choices God already knows I will make (or not choose) – where is that spark, that moment, that I kneel before our Lord and Savior, that matters as a moment of heart and not some moment in a long line of pre determined moments . . . . .

    These questions can spin me in circles. When I find myself going round and round, I find solace and peace in John 14:27-29
    “Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you, not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be afraid.”

    Prayer comforts me, And, it is refreshing that there is space here for us to voice out loud our thoughts, our concerns, our triumphs and victories; even if my question isn’t well stated.

    • “So don be despaired if God doesn’t seem to answer your prayers while here on earth, in this life. He will make up for it in the next world. So don’t give up. Pray even more and harder in fact. God loves it when you pray to Him. He may feel sad that He can’t grant your every prayer and sadder that that puzzles and saddens you. But believe me, He appreciates avery pray and all the time you spend with Him, so don’t give up.

      Jim, thank you for your response (which I think was meant to be here and not above) – Jim, in many ways I am just the opposite of how you present here – In fact, I feel God hears every prayer I pray, and He seems to pay attention to quite a few. I have no desire or feeling of giving up. I feel that God does hear me, and I enjoy spending that quiet, quality, time with Him.

      Spending time in the present, for me, is more important than lagging in the past or projecting into the future. When I slow me down enough to truly be in the present, in the here and now with God, I find that I have everything that I need or wish for, if I can really stay in the present moment.

      My questioning comes in with, . . . God has created the past, present, and future – in fact in some realities or dimensions, they are all one moment. My question is, …. God has mapped out what has occurred in our past, what is occurring in our present, and what will occur in our future – how does my prayer fit in – can we really change the time line and the realities we experience along that line – If God, from the beginning, has decided who will be saved and who will not – then – does prayer matter?

      I knew this would be hard to put out there in words, but it feels important to me to try to do so, and I feel most of you on this board are fairly patient with some of us who come up for air here.

      Of course, prayer matters, and is an experience I enjoy with our Lord, but it is not a rhetorical question, either.

      (The fact that I chose to speak it out loud, I know God will show me the answer to my own question, in some form, if not here on these boards.)

  28. Denise, you wrote, “The fact that I chose to speak it out loud, I know God will show me the answer to my own question, in some form, if not here on these boards.” I must have missed the post; which question of yours are you referring to?

    • Thank you, Arendale. Let me try to simplify down the question I am trying to put to words here . . .
      God, Alpha & Omega, He knows the past, present, and future. God knows from the beginning, which souls will be saved and which will not…….

      Where does prayer fit in. If the future is already determined, does our prayer actually change what happens to us, or, does our praying simply fit into a lineage of time already determined by our Lord?

      Does our prayer actually change the future (our being saved, or not) or does our praying simply put us in alignment with God’s predetermined plan for us?

      I’m not sure this helps. The question is simple, yet profound, as is the answer. And, on some level, I do not need an answer. I will continue to pray, for myself, for other souls. I love the time spent in prayer with our Lord.

      And, I believe the answer is a dual one – our praying aligns us with God’s plan, and, our prayer does affect outcomes. I’m just not sure how the two are both true statements.

      • I usually “pitch” these type of questions to Marianne in private, and this time I wanted to open myself up to the board.

        • denise

          god knows what our prayers will be ahead of time…but the choice is still ours.

          our prayers do change our future, and god can see this, even if we cannot.

          • Marianne – Thank you for your words. They are Truth that, on some deep level, I know them to be true. My mind is churning and running amok – but instead of tempering it down, I wanted to bring out these questions (really the one question / answer) out into the open and into the Light. Everyone who has responded to me has given me a nugget to hold. There is no other place I could open up inside and be vulnerable, except, but here, on your board.

            Denise

  29. Denise, when I see such questions, I know God wants to answer them. Jesus said to come like a child (humbly, open, inquiring) and therefore doesn’t rebuke our questions as He knows that people with far less wisdom than Him will need to ask, seek, knock. That’s what children do. James said God gives wisdom to the one who asks without finding fault or chiding.

    You summarized the answer to your question by writing, “I believe the answer is a dual one – our praying aligns us with God’s plan, and, our prayer does affect outcomes. I’m just not sure how the two are both true statements.” I have to go now but in a few hours will return to look at this question and see if I can say anything that makes sense. The answer is a mystery like that of the Trinity, so it’ll usually only come to light bit by bit. As you’ve probably experienced, trying to see the answer to such a question is like trying to see something through dark but translucent glass.

  30. Dear Denise and Arendale –
    You both have the right Spirit. By saying you have to come as a child. That means so much to the Lord just saying that to Him. You have to pour out your whole heart to God and let HIM teach you things. Do not always rely on man for the right answers is the biggest problem of all. We must empty ourselves out to receive the truth in this day. We had to listen to Mom and Dad when we were being raised up. And lets face it. Most of us have our Daddy and Mommy’s Character in us and their thoughts can stay with us for years. I had to sanctify, and push, and tug, and pull out the little nuggets of truth one at a time. And that set my feet a dancing to know it came from Jesus Christ Guide to the Word. Jesus Christ is Faithful to all of us. No respecter of persons. He loves us all the same. We all have the same thing to do as a Christian. Please read the below. It is simple yet profound to me.

    Jh. 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    a. none of us can understand in the very beginning the “Mystery of Gods deeper Word”. But just read the Word of God – The 4 Gospels are the best to read when a young Christian. I have always told people just read the Red letters a couple of times over and you will start to understand them somewhat. God will teach you. Ask Him for the Holy Spirit to Guide you in FAITH and HE will be your best friend for life.

    JOHN 16:13- Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, HE will guide you into “all truth”: for HE shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever HE shall hear,- “from the Father” – that shall HE speak: and HE will shew you things to come.
    a. Forget all what the others may think and read the Word of Jesus Christ Gospel.

    JOHN 16:14- HE =Holy Spirit – shall glorify ME=Jesus Christ: for HE shall receive of mine, and “shall shew it unto you”. = this is His promise to you.

    JOHN 16:15- All things that the Father hath are MINE – Jesus Christ: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto YOU.

    Here is more Fundamental scriptures that we all need to understand:

    Jh. 14:16 And I – “Jesus” will pray the “Father”, and HE shall give you another “Comforter”, = Holy Spirit – that HE may abide with you for ever;

    a. IN this one scripture above. Is all 3 attributes of the ONENESS of GODHEAD.
    b. #1. “One God” He was the Spirit of Creation of the whole world —
    c. #2. Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of GOD – Was the Spirit GOD putting on a flesh body. Yes – God made Himself a Body to live in Called Jesus Christ. A supernatural birth with no sex desire. Jesus Was just Spoken Word and in its time frame Jesus Came forth. as the “I am” of God. the Immanuel = God with us. Jesus was the 2nd. Adam yet without a flaw. He was the only one that could die for us cause He was the ONLY God/Man the “””Lamb””” that had to be crucified to give His life to us through the Holy Spirit.
    d. #3 – Is the Holy Spirit – which was given to the “”whole world”” if they wanted it bad enough to sell out the world and come to Christ.
    e. Not 3 gods but One God in 3 Attributes of HIS ONE BEING. = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Are all the same GOD period. Living right in you NOW by FAITH and Love.

    NOTICE – It took “””3 dispensations of time””” for all “””3 manifestations of the One God””” to came to pass. God the Father created the World – God Jesus the Son Saved the whole World, then GOD the Holy Spirit lives in the People that will receive Him in the whole world. 3 is perfection. It took God 4000 years to reveal the whole plan of salvation. But from the beginning God had all the attributes IN HIM. Creator, Son, Holy Spirit, Love, Faith, Mercy, Grace, Power, Healing, Miracles, Wisdom, and slowly led the whole world in to His Graces of mercy and love. And Lets not forget HE HAD OUR NAMES ON THE LAMBS BOOK OF LIFE BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD WAS EVER CREATED. HE WANTED TO BE A FATHER, SON, AND A COMFORTER TO HIS OWN CREATION AND FAMILY
    1. All that is left to do is for the Bride of God to become like HIM>
    2. He has given us ALL THINGS to prosper and be like Him.

    JOHN 14:17- Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
    a. All you have to do is believe this. By Faith you can receive it. But the World cannot receive it because they can only put faith in this world. They have NO desire for Spiritual things from Jesus Christ Word. And Crucifixion.

    JOHN 14:18- ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
    a. this is a great promise for the Lord. Receive it now if you do not think you have this Comforter.

    JOHN 14:19- Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
    a. We live by Faith and NOT BY SIGHT- OUR TRUE LOVE IS EVEN HIDDEN TO THE WORLD in Jesus Christ.

    JOHN 14:20 At that day ye shall know that “I am” in my “Father”, and “YE” in “ME”, and I in you.
    a. Hear again. Is all 3 attributes of God in ONE Character living in you. What a great God we serve.
    b. You can trust this God that is for sure.

    Now Predestination is better to call it – Foreknowledge. Its the same thing but Predestination people get bent out of shape so bad they think like some of the posts written. That you do not have to have faith. That is a LIE from the pit of hell.

    The Mystery is this: Even if you KNOW you are “predestinated” and IN Gods Foreknowledge. “You still have to have FAITH TO RECEIVE IT AND live your life” and prove to “”yourself”” and not to others that would like to rule you. You have got Him Living IN YOU. Love brings Faith to you. Your Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word explains the Word and that is why we have to stay in the Word and always have a OPEN mind to Gods truth. If you Love the Lord and have Faith you will never fail. NEVER NEVER.

    In every day life The Lord will Guide you by the Holy Spirit that LIVES IN YOU NOW. NOT IN THE FUTURE for we will not need it then. Its NOW we must Love and have Faith in Jesus Christ while we live in this World of woe, and hate, and darkness etc. Yet God promises us HE will deliver us from ALL our trials and needs. Satan has been bound and cannot take you over unless you want to be taken over.

    Palisade. Just wanting to help you if I can. The problems today with the chuch is they do not go deeper into the Word of God. People are starving for the Word of God even on this post here. But most have already been snake bitten you could say by false doctrines. We have to have a sincere love for Jesus Christ. Doctrine is not everything though. But is a mixed up tore up dark day. We had better understand who we serving. Its not just a doctrine. Its a seeking for More of Gods CHARACTER ATTRIBUTES.

    • Beacon – I agree with you to “not always rely on man for the right answers …” – and I know that God will also reveal Himself, His answers, come through other people.

      I do not have a church that I am connected with, so, this board of Marianne’s serves as my fellowship, and a place where I can vent, or vet, questions that bubble up to the surface. Being here has been a constant place of learning for me. And, it’s in not having the answers that we rely on our faith, I rely on my faith. I know I am in God’s hands, and am comforted by Him in knowing that to be the true.

      Denise

  31. Denise, Beacon737 answered some of your question. I know there’s no simple answer since it’s a multi-faceted question as well as answer.

    One of the greater mysteries is how prayer plays a part in a Christian’s life and salvation. Another mystery is that the salvation of others seems at least sometimes dependent on the obedience of Christians. If it’s really that simple, however, that means that millions are lost due to Christian negligence.

    God wants to reveal secrets to us and said, “Call to Me and I will answer your and tell you great and unsearchable things which you do not know.” However, His ways are higher than ours, and we can rarely get sanctified enough from our carnal man to receive/understand everything of His: “The carnal man (in both unbeliever AND believer) does not receive the things of the Spirit nor can he know/apprehend them because they are spiritually discerned.” But what asking questions does do for us in the meantime is it draws us closer to God (there are not many faster ways to draw near than to go inquiring of God, something both David and Jesus did often), and it draws Him closer to us (“Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you”).

    When we ask God questions, He will very often answer (unless we approach with pride or demands); but we often won’t be able to HEAR Him as His ways are far ‘over our heads’ in more ways than just a few and He often has to break through our limited, earth-bound minds to reach us. But if we can’t receive/grasp/hear the answers He gives, our asking is nevertheless successful in drawing us closer to Him; so, asking God questions is always beneficial, almost like an overlooked health food or forgotten keys of success in business.

    “If any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God who gives liberally to all without finding fault.” You can never ask too many questions with God; you’re actually wise (and humble) if you do. Therefore, “ask and keep asking, seek and keep seeking, knock and keep knocking.” One of the most shocking things that many Christians will find in Heaven will be how close God was when they felt alone, how much He protected and covered them when they felt vulnerable, and how often He spoke to them when they couldn’t hear: “For God does speak– now one way, now another– though man does not perceive it” (Job 33:14). Be encouraged that He’s answering your questions but drawing nearer while you can’t yet hear/understand His answers.

    • Arendale – I believe in my heart of heart that prayer brings us closer to God and aligns us with His will that we may become more like Him. And, as Marianne stated, the choice is still ours, and our prayers also do change our future.

      My mind rears up from time to time, but instead of dampening it down, I wanted to let it up, own it (the questions), and release it. In my revealing my secrets (fears, questions, wondering) He will take them from me.

      Thank you for your words.

      Denise

  32. Denise, keep asking, seeking, and knocking. He’ll keep answering, revealing, and opening His mysteries to you.

  33. Dear Denise, Arendale, and Marianne. In Gods love.

    Yea Denise – Faith is a “Revelation by the Spirit”. Heb. 11:1-3

    Heb. 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the “”evidence of things “”not seen”””.
    Evidence defined – 1650 and 1651; in greek
    1650 – AV — reproof — evidence
    1) a proof, that by which a thing is proved or tested
    2) conviction
    1651 — reprove -rebuke – convince — tell (one’s) fault — convict
    1) to convict, refute, confute, generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted; by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
    2) to find fault with, correct
    2a) by word, to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
    2b) by deed, to chasten, to punish

    a. In today’s world NO ONE wants to take a “rebuke” or “reprove” and many will not listen to their own conviction that is telling them what you believe is not Correct.
    b. Yes – The true Mysteries of the Word of God Revealed is “not seen” to most people. Like it should. Remember St. Johns Gospel. Then you can positively know the Truth. By Revelation=fatih of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Said I will “COME” to you.
    c. Many people would rather fight than switch what they know is the Truth just for fellowship. Pastors are some of the worst. For they get caught up in the money and would rather stay as to leave and get it right with God.
    d. When I got saved I immediately knew when I was convicted of a sin. I did not have to ask my pastor. I knew it in my soul I was doing wrong. Amen
    e. Jesus was the Greatest Christian in the whole world but only a handful of disciples could stay with HIM why – they knew He was special even though His words of rebuke stung them and they Never did understand Him till they received the Holy Spirit. “””Love will always Correct the error.”””

    Heb. 11:2- For by it the elders obtained a good report.
    Heb. 11:3 – Through faith we “”understand”” that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that “”things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”””

    Heb. 11:3 “Understand” by the Spirit – the Word of God is Spirit. Jh. 6:33
    3563 1097;
    AV — mind — understanding
    1) the mind, comprising alike the faculties of “”perceiving and understanding and those of feeling, judging, determining””
    1a) the intellectual faculty, the understanding —-
    1b) reason in the narrower sense, as the “””capacity for spiritual truth””, the “”higher powers”” of the “”soul”” = passions etc. , the faculty of “perceiving divine things”, of recognizing goodness and of hating evil = “by the Spirit”
    1c) the power of considering and judging soberly, calmly and impartially
    2) a particular mode of thinking and judging, i.e thoughts, feelings, purposes, desires

    Faith is a “Divine Understanding” – Only Given to you by “inspiration of the Holy Spirit”. The Bible says that ALL men will be Taught by GOD = Spirit

    This is why the COMER should always Pray and never faint. And always study not just read the Bible but study what the words mean by yourself.
    And last but not least. Find a Christian that can explain to you ALL things. He must have the Evidence that he was sent from God Eph. 4:11 – Good Spiritual Men and Women are hard to find today. Most of them want to be glorified.

    Rom. 4:17 ¶ (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    Rom 4:18- Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Rom 4:19 – And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
    Rom. 4:20- He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    Rom. 4:21- And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    Rom. 4:22- And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    Rom. 4:23- ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    Rom. 4:24- But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    God bless you all all. PS My wife is getting a lot better Praise God. Miracles come by Desperate Prayers. ONLY

    Love you all. Bro. tom

    • Bro. Tom – I’m glad to hear your wife is getting better.

      Aside from what my question(s) may have inferred, faith is something that has been given to me by Grace, since early childhood, as far back as I can recall.

      As an adult, almost 30 years ago my minister and close mentor of mine was ripped away, (and from many others, an entire congregation), murdered – in a most unbelievable fashion, details of which I need not go into here. And there were times that I felt like the poem, “Footprints In The Sand” where at times it seemed there was only one set of footprints. God has never left my side, rather, there have been times when He alone has carried me.

      So, my faith is also built on my experience of a very personal, long, and enduring, relationship with our Lord. What was different for me now was voicing out loud to everyone here a question that was stirring inside of me. Many time we (I) simply push these nagging quests down and away. They are not just questions they are quests because the question / answer ultimately leads one on a journey of discovery – sometimes to places that have nothing to do with the original question.

      Everyone who have responded to me have offered up a jewel, a nugget from which I can take and ponder a deeper level of understanding. For me it is about opening up, being vulnerable in saying, ” … hey, I have a question here about prayer,” and not feel ridiculed or scorned for having such a question.

      I believe faith and prayer go hand in hand. Faith is the power behind prayer, and prayer is the power behind faith. And they are both gifts from God.

      Mark 11:24 “Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (KJV)

      I very much appreciate everyone’s responses.

      Denise

  34. here is man with a life after death experience…..he was “alive” after death

  35. thanks Marianne –
    I liked that video. thanks much. I will pass it on to my wife and others.

    Bro. Tom

  36. These videos as well as many movies about near-death experiences don’t really prove anything. If they were true then they would prove the bible is wrong. The bible clearly states that the dead “know nothing” and simply await resurrection. So how we can believe what these people experience when their brains are deprived of blood and oxygen. It is interesting that people of other religions see their own versions of the afterlife, so does that prove that their religions are true and their gods are real? Theoretically they should all find themselves in “Christian hell” but that has never been recorded. This is a proof that hell does not exist and that people see what they were raised to believe and not some absolute truth.
    So you can either believe these people or you can believe scripture.

    • maybe you missed some scriptures…where does it say the dead know nothing? is this OT or NT?

      • I never like to speak for other people, but this question of death / sleep is important to me – so, if I may –

        Regarding “the dead know nothing”, I believe Jim may be referring to Ecclesiastes verses in the Old Testament –

        9:5 “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.”

        9:6 “Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any that is done under the sun.”

        9:10 “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave, whither thou goest.”

        When we die are we just sort of “suspended” in a sleep state, without knowledge of what is continuing to happen here on earth, until the day of Resurrection, or are we a conscious “spirit” during this time with feelings of peace and / or turmoil?

        Are people’s near death experiences simply our telling ourselves what we want to see and hear? I don’t know, I personally have never had such an experience. But, I think it is more than the brain being deprived of blood and oxygen. The common denominator in these experiences is a sense or feeling of well being, and even the choice as to whether to return to earth.

        “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” Psalm 146:4

        • denise

          that is OT…the saints had to sleep, because they could not go to heaven until the messiah came. once the messiah came, the sleep thing was discontinued and jesus brought everyone straight to heaven.

        • Denise,
          The bible (including Jesus Himself) refer to death as sleep. So we must assume that the death experience is exactly what we know as sleep.
          Tell me, if you fall asleep in the evening and wake up in the morning, do you have any knowledge of what went on while you were sleeping? Are you conscious and aware of everything happening around you while you sleep? If so then you weren’t really asleep.
          So when you sleep (properly) you close your eyes and suddenly you awake and it is a new day.
          That is what death is like. You die, then you are awaked by the resurrection and it will be a new day. You will rise to meet the Lord in the air. You won’t know what year it is, but believe me, you won’t care. And you won’t be concerned about all the time you missed by being dead. You will be a changed person in a spiritual body and the Holy Spirit will be within you. You will be literally born again.
          Many people believe when they die they will go to heaven and will be given the power to look down on the earth and see all that is happening. Sorry but that power is reserved for God.
          As for things changing in the New Testament, here are a few verses about the dead:
          .
          Matthew 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

          John 11:11-13 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth ; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

          Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption;

          Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

          1 Corinthians 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

          1 Corinthians 15:18,20 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

          If such a huge change in God’s policy on death were to begin with Jesus, surely He would have sat His disciples down and had a long lecture about the change. Yet He still speaks of sleep. Why?
          Because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
          Don’t listen to me or Marianne. Read the bible. If it is not clearly stated by God, then it isn’t true. And clearly Jesus speaks of sleep. He never ever tell anyone that when they die they will go directly to heaven.
          Never!

          • there WAS a huge change in God’s policy AFTER Jesus rose from the dead.

            Before, all HAD to sleep because they were not allowed in heaven til Jesus came and redeemed them with his own death.

            once that happen, the game changed.

            • Thank you, Jim, and Marianne. As I have stated many times, though God has been with me all of my life, I have, for the most part, walked alone with Him (without a church or basic tenets of any group from which to learn.)

              Various people here seem to have many years of study, and though I have a wonderful relationship with Him, I am literally just cracking the Bible in an earnest desire to study and more deeply take in His teachings.

              For awhile it was OK to just trust and enjoy my relationship with Him. More recently I have felt almost an urgency, and a responsibility, to more fully take in His Word.

              Though I feel sometimes like I am making up for lost time, it is still OK to not fully understand it all at once today, and time spent with God is never really lost. I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

            • Hello again,

              The only policy change was location. Before Christ died, according to the rich man and Lazarus event, when the righteous died their spirits departed and were taken to the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were seen, which was across from the place of torment in Hades. They were very much conscious and aware, for the rich man was having a conversation with father Abraham and he could see, because he saw Abraham and Lazarus by his side. He could also feel because he said that he was in torment in flame. He also said that he was thirsty and asked Abraham to have Lazarus dip his finger in the water (obviously there was water there) and to touch his tongue because he was in torment in flame. Though we cannot see the spirit, they obviously can feel, see and are aware.

              ===============================
              “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.

              “The rich man also died and was buried”
              ===============================

              At this time, both the rich man and Lazarus have died and were buried at this point, as can be deduced from the above verses. Following that:

              ===============================

              “In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.”

              “So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.”

              ===============================

              Wait a minute! I thought the previous verses stated that the rich man and Lazarus had previously died? How can the rich man be in torment, see father Abraham, and be having a conversation with him? This demonstrates conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body.

              In another post I used the example of conscious awareness of the spirit after death by demonstrating that both Moses and Elijah had appeared with Jesus. Then someone thought, “Oh, I’ve got him on this! Moses and Elijah were not real, but only pictures or visions.” That is until scripture proved that idea as being false when I presented Luke’s version which shows Moses and Elijah actually speaking to Jesus about his fulfillment of all things and his coming departure. Instead of considering the truth, they just circumvent, circumvent, circumvent!

              When reading the word of God, If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

          • “The bible (including Jesus Himself) refer to death as sleep. So we must assume that the death experience is exactly what we know as sleep.”

            Only regarding the body Denise. Proper exegesis demands that if you read of a person that has died as being asleep and you read other scriptures showing the spirits of people who have died as being conscious aware, then you must compare all related scriptures and the only true conclusion that one can come to is that sleep refers to death of the body and does not apply to the spirit. The only way that you can make that claim is to go down the list of scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after death and interpret, distort and circumvent them in order to discredit them. This is a pretty sad system of exegesis.

            Oh, the rich man and Lazarus! We can’t have that, we’ve got to make that a parable so that it isn’t a real event that took place!

            Oh, Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus! Oh, we’ve got to circumvent that some how so that it is not really Moses and Elijah because that would demonstrate that their spirits are conscious and aware.

            Today you will be with me in paradise! Oh, we’ll tell them that the comma is in the wrong place, in order to make the verse not say that the thief would be in paradise that very day with Jesus. And they go on and on and on, instead of believing what scripture plainly states.

            Pretty sad indeed!

            • I would agree, dmcal.

              God’s breath, our essence, does not go take a nap some where when our earthly body ceases to be.

              Our body was drawn from the clay of the earth, and returns to that dust when we die. Our spirit, the breath of life that God has breathed into us, returns back to Him, right then, right there. There is no pause.

              • Thank God! Is good to hear that you are not taken in by those lies. If you really want to get a good idea of what Amillennists believe, I have a document, a few actually, that describes what they believe, why and how. If you would like it, I can send it to your email or I can post it here. It is pretty in depth and long to posted here though. Let me know and I’ll send it.

      • Marianne,
        Psalm 146:3-4: “Put not your trust…in the son of man…His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” When people die, their thoughts end immediately—“in that very day.” That is what it says. This verse is not compatible with the idea that the dead are consciously suffering in a place of torment. We could suppose that, if they are suffering, they do not have knowledge that they are. They are unaware of what is happening to them. Ask yourself: What would be the point of their suffering? It would be as though they were in a coma while their sensory nervous system is sending the tremendous pain sensation of burning to a dead brain. That would be completely illogical.
        Also read the section of my article labeled “The Dead Sleep”
        Both the Old Testament and New Testament say the same thing. There was no change in God’s word just because the messiah came.
        God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

        • god is the same but his new covenant is different from the old

          why stay asleep once the savior can bring you to heaven?

          • Sorry, but that is God’s way of doing things. You won’t even realize you were asleep.It is very efficient. You don’t need to go to heaven. Jesus said no one is in heaven other than those that came from there.
            John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

            • that is NOt god’s way of doing things…he did not create man to live and die and go to sleep.

              read the book of revelation…..the saints are in heaven and not alseep

              • Then why are there so many verses that say the dead sleep? Jesus said it of Lazarus. He never said Lazarus has died and ascended into heaven. The Jews don’t teach it, never have, never will. Jesus was a Jew. He never learned it nor taught it. It was introduced into the church later along with hell. It was a package dreamt up by Plato. It is not in the bible.
                So what do you suppose the dead do in heaven? Sit on clouds playing harps? Is there TV in heaven? Can we watch CNN? What about the internet? So far no one has gotten an e-mail from heaven. Are there buildings in heaven? Furniture? Do people eat there? Where is it and what does it look like? Is there weather there? Or maybe it is just a big starship with God as the Captain and Jesus as First Officer. Then maybe the dead live in cubicles with little bunks like on a submarine.
                Show me where the bible describes heaven. Surely if it is the paradise you claim there should be a nice description. After all, Ezekiel’s temple is described in vivid detail and very few people will eversee or enter it.
                And don’t forget John 3:13:
                And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
                Sounds pretty clear we don’t go to heaven, ever. We remain on earth, awaiting resurrection. That is what the Book of Revelation clearly states. The vision of John seeing those who were martyred for the mark of the beast in the early church inquisitions are a “ytype” for what will soon happen again. Those people are still sleeping, awaiting the Second Coming just as we are now. Do you really think that when you die you are squished under the altar of God in heaven with millions of other dead folks? If you believe the vision is not symbolic then that would be the only actual description of heaven in the bible. All I can say is bring your deodorant with you.
                Remember, John wrote the verse above that no man hath ascended into heaven. So why would he contradict himself in the Book of Revelation? Note that the verses about sleep are plain and very clear. You can’t twist the word “sleep” to mean “go to heaven.” All the contradictory verses are visions, parables or just translations that sound like something else, but are easily explained or properly translated. It should be clear which one to believe.
                The ones that can’t be explained away.

                • read the new testament, and then get back to me.

                  saints in heaven is in the bible, so you have overlooked this in your reading

                  • Marianne,

                    Regardless of what Jim says, it is the body that sleeps in the dust of the earth and not the soul/spirit. We have too many examples of the spirits of people being conscious and aware after death, such as the event of the rich man and Lazarus and Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration. And because these events are destructive to their beliefs, the do the same thing that they do with all scripture that kills there positions, they circumvent, misinterpret or distort it. We have the following verses that show that when a believer body dies, their spirit departs from the body and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware:

                    “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. ”

                    “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. ”

                    Notice the scripture above says, “I desire to depart and be with Christ” not “I desire to depart and sleep in the dust of the earth.”

                    Amil’s can try to twist, circumvent and misinterpret the above, but the verses are very clear in what they say. From the Lord’s teaching through Paul, once a believer’s body dies, the spirit then departs and immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. On that day when the Lord appears, with him will be all the spirits of believers who have died throughout the church period and they will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those living believers who are still alive and are waiting for him, will be changed into their glorified bodies will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

                    Regarding unbelievers, the Lord gave us the event of the rich man and Lazarus. The unrighteous when they die, their spirits depart from the body and are taken to Hades where they will remain in torment in flame, just as the rich man, until the great white throne judgment, which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom (Rev.20:11-15)

              • Hi Marianne,

                You have to always remember when speaking to Jim or anyone else that is an Ammillennialist, that you are not going to be able to convince them of the truth of God’s word with scripture and that because they have a pre-packaged interpretation for most Biblical topics regarding end time events. To make it worse, in Jim’s case, he doesn’t believe Paul to be an apostle nor his writings to be God-Breathed and so you can’t quote any scripture that the Lord gave through Paul to contend for the truth. Amil’s circumvent, twist, allegorize and symbolize scripture when it is convenient for them to prove their point. A good example of this that when you read the verse in Rev.20:1-2, which states that after Jesus returns to end the age, an angel is going to come down out of heaven and is going to seize Satan and bind him in the Abyss for a thousand years. The Amil has been taught to grab Psalm 50:10 and which says “I own cattle on a thousand hills” and since the cattle on those thousand hills is an unknown number, they will ignore the context of Rev.20:1-2 and instead apply the formula from Ps.50:10 to Rev.20:2 making Satan’s binding not a literal thousand years and not a literal binding, as the verse literally states. You will chase your tail to exhaustion trying to prove anything to them. As far as I’m concerned, Ammillennialism is one the most deceitful and destructive false teachings on the planet.

  37. Jim is wrong.

    I have been dead for a short while. I dont want to talk about how I died but when I was dead my soul was against the roof looking down on my body laying still. Some of my memory was gone and I could see in colors.
    P.S. No drugs involved!

    • You may have been clinically dead, but not dead to God. Anything you saw was latent brain activity, not the place where you will go when you really die.
      Or maybe it is all the work of Satan, trying to fool the gullible.

  38. The Bible says so Sister Marianne. Its called the 2nd. death. My goodness.
    I will repeat myself again. As I have many times on these post.
    You would have to be “Born Again to have Eternal life”. Jesus said why will ye perish.
    There are 1,126 mortal men scriptures in the O.T. alone.

    Rev. 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the “”””beast””””, or the number of his name.
    2342 therion from the same as 2339;
    AV — beast — wild beast – venomous beast
    1) an animal, a wild animal, wild beast, beast; “”metaphorically””, a “”brutal, bestial man””, “”savage””, “”ferocious””
    2339 thera from ther (a wild animal, as game);– trap
    1) a hunting of wild beasts to “””destroy them”””; hence figuratively, “”of preparing “”””destruction for men””

    Rev. 22:15 For without are “”dogs””, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Dogs – 2965 a primary word;
    AV — dog — a dog; a man of impure mind, an impudent man

    Rev. 21:27 And there shall “in no wise enter” into it any thing that “defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the “””Lamb’s book of life””.
    Lambs 721 from 730 — Lamb i.e. Christ — lamb
    1) a little lamb, a lamb
    730 from 142; — male — man — man child — man child – a male
    142 “airo” a “”primary root””; — take up — take away — away with — lift up — bear 1) to raise up, elevate, lift up
    2) to take upon one’s self and carry what has been raised up
    3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off
    1. These people names are in the “Lambs book of life”.
    2. Where the “Book of life” is “NOT Eternal”cause the comer would not repent and believe in Jesus Christ which is the “”only form of Eternal life”.
    3. We talk about “Faith” all the time in America. But very few really, really understand Faith as a GOD GIVEN ANSWER to YOUR COMPLEX of Mind and intellect. Gods Spirit will annihilate the foolishness of the wise . The “Book of life” had both names in them. But the “Book of the Lamb” only has ETERNAL LIFE children in it. Jesus said that Judas name was written in heaven. Yes God knows us all. But Judas never did receive Eternal life. His name might have been in the book of heaven but he never gave his heart to Jesus Christ and died the death. “””Double DEATH”””
    4. The Human dogs and Natural = Brute Beasts cannot enter into Gods Eternal Heaven. Jesus read it plain.
    5. Its not a mistake that the 2nd. Death is mentioned 4 times in the last Book of the Bible. Jesus never leaves nothing undone. He told his disciples that HE told them ALL things.
    6. Do we think God is so terrible to let dogs just die the 2nd. Death.
    7. We can count on God always being a JUST GOD.
    8. I think their will be many in Heaven that people would never dream would be their and vice-versa.

    Bottom line – until people really get a “Spiritual Revelation” straight from Gods Throne we all will be mixed up and confused. And be like the Pharisee they could not get a Revelation cause they was never Born again to begin with. They loved their own doctrines and traditions over Jesus Christ Eternal Word.
    2. Now with that said. If we do not believe yet know we are “Born Again” without a shadow of doubt people ought to have a story to tell about their conversion. You literally Raise from the Dead man you was and into a Eternal life man that you was not before you received Jesus Christ. If you search you will find the answer. I can for sure say that to myself. But we do not have to know everything to know Jesus Christ love.
    3. I look at it like the Lawyer who said he went into death. And was purified, and God showed him HIS LOVE for him. Etc etc.
    4. This is the way every “Born again person” should understand after Jesus Come into his heart with the Holy Spirit.
    5. I was in another “dimension” as I have always said to anybody that ask me.
    6. The Old man will persist to try and deceive you and Steal, Kill, and Destroy you after your New Birth.
    7. Start Praising God for that. Cause you know you have passed from Death unto life. I was not pestered before I became a Christian. But I sure did feel the tug of the flesh all the time. Trying to tare me down.

    Got to go. Tom

  39. Hell does exist because I have been there and I seen the devil himself and he does not have a tail but he does have a pitch fork. I saw so many familiar faces I cried out and sure enough Lucifer heard it and he looked my way and he said you’re next, but then he shuddered when I looked him dead in the eye because I look like my mama and he said ummm never mind and tell her I said hi, but it was really weird.

    • emily

      I am glad you found your way back from hell. just use this as a reality check, and seek God in your life, more than ever. thank you for sharing that. a lot of people are fooled to think hell is not real.

    • Well, Emily, it looks like you are in for an eternity of hell.
      When you died, God placed His judgement on you so you are destined to hell. If God doesn’t make mistakes, then His mind is made up and it will not changed. That is if you really believe in hell.
      Do not worry, when you die you will await resurrection (this will only take a moment… for you) and even if you are evil, you will be given the chance to repent and receive eternal life.
      You were never really in hell, you were imagining it in your oxygen-deprived brain. If Marianne were a real biologist she could explain this to you.
      Anyway, shrug off the experience. It meant nothing and is not proof of hell.
      Re-read this article and you will find the real proof of hell. It was conjured up by the Catholic church including purgatory.
      Most of the Christians here keep the hell part and throw out the purgatory as being clearly made up by the Catholic church. They don’t realize that the whole thing was made up.
      So let them fear a terrible fate if they don’t meet God’s standards.
      You don’t have to. Take refuge in the truth. God is merciful and loves you.

      • since your degree is not in biology, I suggest you do not make comments that indicate you are an expert in that area.

        there is no scripture to support the view that one has a chance to repent and have eternal life AFTER they die

  40. I also have seen Heaven too so I’d rather be in Heaven than in Hell and a lot of people say God’s a guy they got it wrong, God is a female.

    • “a lot of people say God’s a guy they got it wrong, God is a female.”

      Sisteemilyrose96,

      Why would claim something that is so easy to disprove? Obviously, from just these few scriptures, and there are many, you can clearly see that God is male, as he is referred to by Jesus as his heavenly Father, not mother. Also, Jesus told Philip and the rest of his disciples saying, “when you see me, you have seen the Father.” Scripture states that, “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.” Therefore, Jesus being a male and being the exact representation of God’s being, would God male.

      I could go on and on with verses of course, but what would be the point. You can see from just these few verses that Jesus referred to God as his “Father” By the way the word Father is always in the Masculine and never in the feminine.

      “He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.”

      “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

      “For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.”

      “So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.”

      “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

  41. I don’t think G-d is male , or female. I suspect G-d is more like a fire, or spirit. Jesus would be G-d made flesh, or G-d’s word made flesh. His law.

    G-d appears to masculine a lot of times.

    demcal52, Good rebuttal. However, I think Jim has a lot of Bible on his side too. I hope Jesus is sent back very soon and squares away this place.

    Later,

    • Hi Leatherneck,

      Jim is an amillennialist and also rejects Paul as an apostle of the Lord and considers his writings as NOT God-Breathed and therefore, there is nothing that Jim says that can be taken as the truth of Scripture. Also regarding God being male or female, I would remind you that Jesus referred God over and over again as his heavenly “Father,” which would be is in the masculine and not the feminine.

      • Dmcal52, amen.

      • I don’t know where you got the idea that I don’t believe in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. I talk about it all the time. What would be the point of a Second Coming without the millennium? I’m looking forward to it.
        And all I said about Paul is that he had a particular bias in his teaching because he was convinced Jesus would return within his lifetime. He even told some youths not to worry about love and family because time was so short, why bother. That I got from a TV evangelist years ago. I can’t quote the verses although I’ve read them.
        Just to set the record straight. (And I make similar misstatements from time to time, so I understand.)

  42. dmcal et al,
    I find it funny how everyone has a different theory on heaven and hell.
    Some say the spirit goes to God in heaven and somehow that spirit is able to see, talk even see all the way to earth to spy on loved ones and world events. And yet the bible states the dead know nothing. Many times.
    Until you adequately describe what the disembodied spirit actually is you are only guessing. It is clearly not in the bible or else someone would have brought it up a long time ago.
    And what does heaven look like? Are there buildings or just clouds? Is there something to do there to keep the dead busy in some cases for thousands of years? Do they have to mow the lawn there? What could humans possibly do in heaven for that long? Is there pizza there? What would heaven be (to me) without pizza?
    Get my drift? Everyone has a vague picture of heaven from childhood stories and movies. But heaven is not biblical. John said no man has ascended into heaven. That is New Testament. After Jesus died and ascended Himself. Believing in hell makes a lot of prophets and disciple a bunch of liars. How can you disregard their very clear statements? Yet all the explanations to the contrary are just imagined y people. They can’t find it in the bible, they just assume it must be a certain way so they fill in the blanks from their imaginations. And everyone has their own theory, which proves they didn’t read it in the bible.
    Finally, I must as those people who do believe in hell / heaven, what did you read in the bible that the Jews completely missed? You are smarter than every Jew that ever lived? You need to blog on a Jewish web site so you can straighten out these poor fools. Common sense says that if the Jews don’t believe in hell, then Jesus wouldn’t have either. Nor the disciples. And there are no verses in the bible where Jesus teaches the Jews about a change in how God handles death. In fact even Jesus calls death sleep. Certainly he was not referring to the dead body as sleeping. Death is death. Everybody understands that. SO what exactly goes to sleep? It must be what remains of the human soul (which is the body and the spirit) dies? Only the spirit, whatever that is. So it must be the spirit that sleeps. Until the resurrection when a new immortal body is created and the creator blows the spirit of life into it. Until then we are still dead/sleeping. And that seems most fair. Why should David have to hang around in heaven watching the earth news channel waiting for 3000 years before the Second Coming and a chance to return to earth. How long can someone sit on a cloud and play the harp without getting bored? (That was my concept of heaven for many years).
    This way both David and everyone else come to life at the same time. No fuss, no long waits, no harps. To me this is the ideal solution.
    And if the dead sleep but the spirit goes to God in heaven, what about the wicked? Do they go to heaven too, awaiting resurrection and the Lake of Fire later on? You have to use your imagination again to explain this anomaly.
    All I can say is you either believe the word of God or the ancient church and all the people they have fooled over the last thousand years.

    • people have provided scripture to support their views

    • Jim said:
      “I find it funny how everyone has a different theory on heaven and hell.
      Some say the spirit goes to God in heaven and somehow that spirit is able to see, talk even see all the way to earth to spy on loved ones and world events. And yet the bible states the dead know nothing. Many times.
      Until you adequately describe what the disembodied spirit actually is you are only guessing. It is clearly not in the bible or else someone would have brought it up a long time ago.”

      First of all, what I have provided is not a theory, but scriptural, which you seem to continue to ignore. You pick out one scripture in Ecclesiastes and ignore the many scriptures that support conscious awareness after death. As I have been saying, you are not discerning between the body and the spirits/soul. It is the body that is referred to as being asleep, not the spirit. As proof I have provided the event of the rich man and Lazarus, Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, the fifth seal souls under the altar who are seen conversing, Jesus stating that the man would be with him in paradise and Paul’s references to being in the presence of the Lord upon departing from the body. But, you ignore these and your answer to them is to distort or circumvent them. Here is the scripture that you are putting all your eggs into:

      “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
      they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
      Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;
      never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

      Sounds to me like the scripture is referring to those who have died as no longer having any part with people and the events taking place on the earth and not that they are unconscious or unaware. And you pit this against all of the available scriptural information found in the NT. This is more of a matter of poor exegesis on your part and those who have believed this false teaching.

    • Jim said:
      “Until you adequately describe what the disembodied spirit actually is you are only guessing.”

      =========================================

      “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

      22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

      25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

      27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

      29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

      30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

      31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

      ========================================

      So, let’s see: verses 20 and 21 show the rich man and Lazarus as being alive in their mortal bodies.

      Verse 22: shows Lazarus’ body dying and the angels carrying his spirit to Abraham’s side. We know that it can’t be Lazarus body that the angels are carrying and that because the verse just said that he died. Also in the verse is the mention of father Abraham, whom we know had been long dead. Verse 22 also shows that the rich man’s body dies.

      Verse 23: then reveals that the spirit of the rich man is in torment in Hades. Now, we know from verse 22 that the rich man had already died, yet his spirit is now in Hades in torment in flame. And in addition to that, the rich man can see Lazarus who is at Abraham’s side. Again, conscious awareness.

      Verse 24: has the rich man calling out to father Abraham to have Lazarus go and dip his finger in the water to cool his tongue because of his torment in the flame. The fact that the rich man recognized who Father Abraham was also demonstrates conscious awareness.

      Verse 25: Notice Abraham’s response to the rich man “Remember in your lifetime.” This would reinforce the fact that the rich man is dead being that his lifetime on earth is over. Regarding his request for Lazarus to cool his tongue with the water, Abraham says that Lazarus is now comforted and he is now in agony in the flame, which would once again demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit of both.

      Verse 26: Abraham tells the rich man that even though Lazarus could dip his finger in the water, that there is a great chasm or ravine separating the two places. This demonstrates that it is a literal place and that Abraham is conscious and aware of it.

      Verse 27: The rich man is begging Abraham to send Lazarus back from the dead to his father’s house so that he can warn his five brothers so that they would repent and not go to the same place of torment that he is in.

      Verse 28: Abraham mentions Moses and the prophets. This along with the fact that the rich man, Lazarus, Abraham, Moses, the prophets, his five brothers, demonstrates that because literal people and the literal location Hades is being used, would disqualify the event of Lazarus and the rich man as being a parable, which many people claim in order to discredit this as a literal event which took place and that because it destroys their claim of the body, soul and spirit being asleep in the earth.

      A parable uses symbolism to represent the literal. The following is an example from the parable of the wheat and the weeds:

      The sower = the Lord

      The seed = the word of God

      The field = the world

      The harvest = the end of the age

      The harvesters = The angels

      The wheat = son’s of the kingdom

      The weeds = son’s of the evil one

      The evil one = Satan

      The above is a perfect example representing a parable. The point being that, the event of the rich man and Lazarus reads nothing like a parable, as real people and the real location of Hades is being referred to. The only reason that they make the claim that it is a parable, is because as a literal event it completely destroys their claim that the spirit/soul knows nothing after death. And this is just one example! Shall we go on to Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration? Or the souls under the altar?

      Now that I have presented this to you Jim, there is no guessing about it. For whatever you want to call that consciousness, whether the soul or the spirit, that is what is conscious and aware after death. If you want to stick with that one vague scripture in Ecclesiastes up against all the other scripture that demonstrates conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death, then that is your prerogative. But as for me, I choose to base my decision based on all scripture and in this case it is overwhelming!

  43. Dmcal replied to me:
    ” If you really want to get a good idea of what Amillennists believe, I have a document, a few actually, that describes what they believe, why and how. If you would like it, I can send it to your email or I can post it here. It is pretty in depth and long to posted here though. Let me know and I’ll send it.”

    Dmcal – I brought your response down here because conversation was getting lost in those little itty bitty margins. I Googled “Ammillenist” and found quite a few articles so I think I have an understanding. If you have my e-mail, you are welcome to send, but I think I have a pretty good comprehension,

    I am not a Biblical scholar which I freely and openly admit. As for understanding the term of those who are “dead in Christ” – before the discussion here – I have always interpreted that those “dead in Christ” are the opposite of those who “live in Christ”, meaning, those who are dead in Christ do not know him as Lord and Savior, which those of us who live in Christ, do.

    As for what our spirit does in Heaven, when our physical body dies, whether “mowing lawns” or “surfing the Internet” as Jim has queried, Heaven is so far beyond our grasp and comprehension we can not possibly put into words here what that dimension holds for us, other than we return to our Maker, our Lord God in Heaven.

    • Good day Denise,

      you said:
      “I am not a Biblical scholar which I freely and openly admit. As for understanding the term of those who are “dead in Christ” – before the discussion here – I have always interpreted that those “dead in Christ” are the opposite of those who “live in Christ”, meaning, those who are dead in Christ do not know him as Lord and Savior, which those of us who live in Christ, do.”

      The term, “dead in Christ” as used in 1 Thes.4:16 is in reference to those who have died as believers in Christ. An unbeliever would not be referred to as someone who is dead in Christ, and that because they never were in Christ. The context is what tells us what is being spoken of. As an example, here are two different verses:

      ===================================

      “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

      “And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

      ==================================

      In the first scripture, the “dead in Christ” represents those who have died believing in Christ. In the second scripture, they are not referred to as the dead in Christ, but as the dead. These are those who will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand at the great white throne judgment and that because they are the dead who were not in Christ, the unrighteous dead.

      Wherever you see the term “dead in Christ” or “asleep in Christ” it is referring to those who have died believing in Christ.

      I hope that this helps

      • dmcal – Thank you, yes, I do understand now the real meaning of “dead in Christ.”

        When people present their views and understanding, I go to the scriptural verses they use and read them for myself. I usually read the verses just before and after so that I read them in context of what was said.

        Then I can educate myself, change my understanding (or not) and come to know God on a deeper level.

        Thank you for your notes.

  44. This was posted above:
    emily
    a lot of people are fooled to think hell is not real.
    Marianne said this on October 8, 2015 at 8:26 pm | Reply

    Their is a HELL – It is the First 4 Seals of the 7 seals. Look at the people in these 3rd world countries. Look at the pagans in these third world countries that look like Zombies – Why – their are possessed with many devils just like the man that had a thousand demons in him and was crazy and insane. Till Jesus touched Him and He got converted. That man was living in HELL right here on earth.

    Their are only 2 Spirits – That always gather together – Demonic spirit or Holy Spirit. It depends on who you run with and how you was raised and how and who you give your SOUL to. Their is no depths in the “Bottomless pit of Satan’s world”. As we’ll as Heaven is “far above” the Bottomless pit.
    Many people in this month of Oct. will worship demons all over the world. That is your HELL> Demonic spirits will come to us all at times.
    Demonic oppression is as real as the Holy spirit is the anti-type of demonic oppression. The Holy Spirit will take you out of the hell. In this life.

    Last thought. America is under many demonic forms of HELL> To many to list. Yea we are educated to believe their is NO GOD . And Lust, and money, and Idolatry runs rapid in our Country. Just like in Israel before it fell in 70 Ad. Riches can be a form of hell when you lose them. Poverty is a form of demonic hell. Americans probably have more “pride” = satan than any other country on this planet at this moment. I’m talking about the average man or woman. We live in Sinful Pleasure’s, that will make you as bad if not worse than the Zombies spoken of above. Look at the painted up people with all their tattoo’s and they love them yet they are hideous and pagan to the core Rings in their lip’s, noses, tongues. They are living in a Bottomless pit right now. Nothing is sacred anymore in America. Everything is allowed.

    I Repeat the First 4 seals is the fake Jesus. = The Nations and Kings of this world – destroying it and making it a hell on earth. And if you follow their them you will die. The last 3 Seals are all Spiritual Seals. As Christ is the Seventh Seal – In these last 3 Seals it will be God’s doing. Mans number is 4 and Gods number is 3. Most all the way through the Bible. The last three will be the Judgment of the “Fake Jesus’ with their Nations of corruptions and killing and starvation and lust for war and gold etc. It will be the Real Jesus that destroys them.

    If you cannot take all of this or do not understand it. Then at least find the little nuggets of gold that you can dig up- Yes we all dig our own well good or bad. The Believers Soul is always digging for the life giving Water. We got to DIG – The World seeks the Demons of pleasure. That destroy the Soul. But the Holy Spirit that will destroy every demon that come’s at them. Praise God –
    The worst thing would be you think you going to heaven when you die and your name is not on the “Lambs book of life”. That would be anybodies worst night mare. Your Spirit will go to the abyss or to heaven. Only 2 places it can go. Their is only ONE JUDGE that is a Eternal Pillar of fire. That is God. That is the same fire that Moses followed. It killed men or saved them.
    You will get rejected or excepted.

    Bro. Tom

    • “Their is a HELL – It is the First 4 Seals of the 7 seals. Look at the people in these 3rd world countries. Look at the pagans in these third world countries that look like Zombies – Why – their are possessed with many devils just like the man that had a thousand demons in him and was crazy and insane. Till Jesus touched Him and He got converted. That man was living in HELL right here on earth. ”

      Here we go with the allegories! Beacon, Hell, that is, the Lake of fire is a literal place of punishment that was created for Satan and his angels and is also the same place that everyone whose name is not found written in the book of life will go and experience, conscious awareness in torment, no rest day or night. Therefore, it is not a metaphor for what people are or will suffer her on earth. Also, the seals are apart of God’s wrath that is coming and though it will most certainly be terrible, it is not the place of hell, neither the lake of fire or Hades/sheol.

  45. dmcal

    “”What do the the first 4 Seals really reveal – “”
    —Only 2 Conquerors —
    Rev. 2:13 I know thy works, and where “”thou dwellest””, even where “”Satan’s seat is””: and thou holdest fast “”my name”” =Jesus, and hast “”not denied my faith””, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where “”Satan dwelleth””.
    b. Satan dwells on earth in demon power. In the Church and Nations.

    The 4 Seals- a brief reading.
    Rev. 6;2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and “”he went forth conquering,”” and to conquer.”” = The Fake jesus. Of protection and wealth and great power over mankind.
    A. Satan dwells on earth in demon power in Mankind. He is the fallen human spirit. That rules all Nations of man.

    a. Only 2 Conquerors period. “Head of Nations”kings – which manifest lawlessness and become their own gods and killing machines. = Satan
    b. And the King of “Heaven and Earth”. With his kings. This King is ruler of all things. Our King died for us so we could have Power over the satans of this world.
    c. Their are only 2 classes of people in this world. A Believer – or a – Unbeliever.

    Rev. 6:3 – And when he had opened the “second seal”, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
    R 6:4- And there went out another horse that “”was red: and Power”” was given to him that sat thereon to “”take peace from the earth,”” and that they should “”kill one another””: and there was given unto him a “”great sword””.
    a. Yea my Lord – it started in Genesis. Cain and Abel – one excepted and one not excepted. Only 2 seeds period of mankind.
    b. Cain wanted to be a King over His brother. And make him a slave.
    c. Nimrod was a “Powerful man in his day”. Till God broke up his Tower.
    d. The Rulers became Conqueror’s with mighty Power over all the 12 languages. Which became Nations as well. All they did was fight and kill and starve the people to death. And built great cities=fortresses – as did Cain. And they elevated themselves. And turned from the Almighty God.
    e. By the Fall of Adam, Mankind got a “great sword” and all the Nations wanted to be the rulers.

    Rev. 6:5- And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a “black horse”; and he that sat on him had a “pair of balances” in his hand.
    Rev. 6:6- And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A “measure of wheat for a penny”, and “three measures of barley for a penny”; and see thou “hurt not the oil and the wine”.
    a. Darkness and death is all that can come out of “fallen creation of mankind” that became hostile toward everyone till another Nation would rise up to be “King’s of the World”. When you read the O.T you will Hear what God called the human Kings and mankind. Jackles, serpents, bears, leopards, dragons, flies, and all kind of different names of animals and pest GOD called the people. He called them by their “Characters” of demons that lived in them. Cause they knew not God in their thinking and became reprobate in mind, soul, and body. They could not retain God in their thinking because all their lust was for everything to please themselves. Till they finally “”worshiped themselves”” as a god.
    b. When Powerful Nations rise. Among other less Nations. The powerful Nations can put a price on food that would starve the other nations just like we got today.
    c. Us Americans do not even know what its life not to eat every day as many times as they want to.
    d. In the 3-1/2 year Jew/Roman war. The Romans starved the Israelite’s till they ate their own babies to stay alive. The Romans were merciless. Cut off the water supply as well. Built a Roman War of Warriors around all of Jerusalem. To keep them from not escaping through the wilderness. Yet some did but most all died in the seas they name the sea of blood in that day by John. And the Jordon was turned to Blood, virtually as well. From all the Romans slaughtering the Jews for days and days trying to escape.
    e . John was writing about HIS GENERATION and what they was going to have to go through by rejecting Jesus Christ.
    f. It was Death, Hell, and the Grave for the Israel. Except for those that God led through the Wilderness. During and after the war was over. Rome searched for Jews all through their world at that time.
    g. And then they started falling from their lust of power. And went into starvation as well. later in years to come. Cause their on Allies seen the weakness of Rome coming. Just like we see it coming to America soon.
    h. God judged them Both for Destruction. Jew and Rome come to “one mind” to Kill Jesus Christ.
    I. So they Both had it coming. And Mighty Rome perished as well. With their Caesar’s.

    Rev. 6:7- And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
    Rev. 6:8- And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and “”his name”” that sat on “””him””” was “”Death, and “Hell” followed with “him”. And “power” was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to “kill with sword”, and “with hunger”, and “with death”, and with the “beasts of the earth”.

    The 4th Seal is just summing up the 3 Seals before it to get you to the bottom line of what HELL really is. On EARTH. And In your EARTH =Body of clay.
    a. Earth is the lowest of all the 3 heavens. Called Sheol.
    b. Jesus Came to Sheol to die. That is where HE had to come. For 4,000 years Mankind turned it into a “”HELL on Earth. Because of demonic spirits that ruled in mankind. satans

    Dmcal
    a. And I have heard you say you are waiting for the Seals to break. You are not in reality dear brother. Like millions of others who cannot see the Crime and immorality, and starvation, and killing, and Wars.
    Look at America coming up since it started. Wars, Wars, Killing, starvation.
    Look at Noahs day – Look at Moses day – Look at Elijahs, Look a Jeremiahs days. That is all mankind knows. Cause he serves SATAN within him. Satan got the victory over mankind till Jesus Come and Created a New Heaven and Earth that we could live in.

    Hell is a real place where demons live and kill and persecute other people for the fun of it. For the Power to “Rule as Kings” as “Cain the Beast” did. Jealousy is crueler than the grave. Cain was carnal.
    a. Why does Israel and the Philistines still fight. Why do the Turks hate Iran.
    b. Only God can deliver a man or woman from the clutches of satans HAND which is Mankind. Yes Satan uses MAN by demon power.
    c. As the “Son of God” uses Mankind for HIS OWN GLORY. For Victory By the Holy Ghost.

    I imagine you will say I’m off the subject. But I’m right on the subject matter of what the “”real Hell is””. Yes Jesus had to come in His Day to CREATE A NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH. Which HE did by dying and bringing Back the Eden of our OWN SPIRIT that we had in the Beginning before Adam and Eve fail.
    a. The real HELL is FALLEN MANKIND that was in a hopeless situation UNTIL JESUS CAME AND SET US FREE.
    b. We live in this world but WE are NOT OF THIS WORLD

    Its to simple for most to grasp.

    Palisade – I would this could help you in realizing the simplicity that is in Christ. HE SEALED US IN FROM THE FALL ———–HELLO
    We are the Eternal life Sons of God born through Jesus Christ.

    • Beacon,

      I am not even going to respond to you and that because you literally have no idea what you are talking about. I’ll tell you this, Satan was never a human as you mentioned above. The first seal rider on the white horse is representing the beast, who is a separate entity from Satan. This is very easy to prove since when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and Satan is thrown into the Abyss. These are two different places, ergo, Satan and the beast cannot be the same person.

  46. To All.
    Adversary= Satan – Let us understand the real truth of who is satan.

    1 Sam. 29:4 – let (him) not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle (he be) an adversary (SATAN) to us: The Philistines were Israels Satan = Man

    2 Sam. 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, (ye sons of Zeruiah), that (ye) should this day be adversaries (SATANS) unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? sons of Zeruiah – MAN

    1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary (SATAN) unto Solomon, (Hadad the Edomite): he was of the (king’s seed in Edom).= MAN

    1 Kings 11:23 And God stirred (him up another adversary) (SATAN) “Rezon the son of Eliadah”, which fled from his lord (Hadadezer king of Zobah):=MAN

    1 Kings 11:25 And (he) was an adversary (SATAN) to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria. Hadad and and Syria – satans = MAN

    Bottom line:
    “Fallen man became the satans of the world.”
    As Egypt was to Israel – The Pharoah’s Gold crown’s had serpents in them.
    Daniels Nations were called Beast- N.T called them Natural brute beast whom had not the Holy Spirit in them. 666 Just dry clouds of fierce ungdoly men. AS Balaam was a Satan to Israel.= a man and very religious -Sanhedrin group of men that killed Jesus Christ with the Help of government joined together in ONE mind.
    Rev.17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. = this started from the beginning of time by man joining himself with the “Tree of “carnal knowledge” instead of the “tree of life.
    Carnal= means animal appetites among other things. We must see and know what spirit we are of. Without Gods Spirit living in you. You will become as a animal with lusts and desires of animals. Its blunt but its also the Truth.

    JAMES 1:14 But “every man” is tempted, when he is drawn away of “his own lust”, and enticed.
    JAMES 1:15- Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.– Sin = unbelief = death
    JAMES 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
    JAMES 1:19 Be slow to wrath: – be not swift to destroy.
    JAMES 1:20- For the (wrath of man) worketh not the righteousness of God.

    1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the “lust of the flesh”, and the “lust of the eyes”, and the “pride of life”, IS NOT of the FATHER=SPIRIT, but is of the world. – The spirit of the world is your Adversary. Satan being fallen mankind
    Your flesh man, eye’s, and lust will create your own satan within. Then you become an (adversary even to your own self and God as well). This is why we must have the Holy Spirit to overcome the “”Human spirit which is a (magnet) to the flesh man”. As a Christian it must be dealt with. And born again into a New Creation.

    This is a short lesson on who is the real satan is. Its not some boogie man that is as great as God. Most Christians place satan sitting beside God almost with the same power that God Has. We have been taught wrong from the get go. Its just the human spirit in man. The perversion of partaking of the Tree of Death. But Christ has ALL power over ALL things. Death is just the perversion of Eternal life.

    I have hope this will bless someone with Knowledge by the Holy Spirit

    • after reading about ISIS, I can believe that man can = satan

    • I think you have gone overboard on this idea.
      We know that Satan means adversary, but not every use of the word adversary is going to mean Satan. We know that the word “stars” can sometimes mean angels but if you go using angels for every case of the word star you end up in a world of confusion.
      It reminds me of John on the Nibiru pages, who went thru the entire bible and replaced the word “destroyer” with Nibiru since some people have called Nibiru “planet X” and “destroyer.” So now he is convinced that Nibiru is mentioned throughout the bible and is trying to use it to explain all sorts of biblical events. And all the while Nibiru is simply a hoax.
      So I would be careful with simple word-replacement in the bible. Babylon is another word that does not always mean the ancient city, so we must know when to use it in the proper manner.
      In your case, we know Satan is a fallen angel and not a human being. And we can’t expect mere humans to have the power of Satan. And remember that Satan was the name given to describe the Archangel Lucifer. It is sort of a nickname. A description.
      So your whole theory really doesn’t make sense. If it did, preachers would have been teaching it for hundreds of years. We simply can’t start believing such a radical new concept at this point in bible study history.
      Reality check.

      • The Great City of Babylon Has been Revealed to me and we have to flee from her before it is too late.

        • Hi Emily,

          You need to spend some time studying these subjects before expounding on them. Your very post destroys your claim. The angel told John the following:

          “The woman that you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

          Therefore, how can America, which is an entire nation, be a city? At the time John was receiving this information from angel, that city that ruled over the kings of the earth was Rome and was and is an actual city. America didn’t even exist at the time that John was receiving that information, much less rule over the kings of the earth and is also not a city. When interpreting scripture, we have to pay attention to all of the details. Also, America does not sit on seven hills.

  47. I’m surprised to be reading so many new doctrines such as whether or not hell exists, that people won’t suffer eternally, and that satan is really human flesh. Solomon said that too much study isn’t good and that of the writing of books (ie. the expounding of individual opinions) there’s no end. He then gave the answer to all this meaninglessness: “Fear God and obey His commands, for THIS is the WHOLE duty of man.”

    If satan is just carnal man, why is he not just a different entity in the Bible but is also very clearly distinguished from other people on the outside of the carnal man within each person: the Bible says that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil/satan. He can’t be the flesh and the world if he’s a different entity from them altogether.

    This is the kind of thing that happens when there is a neglect of the important essentials of the Christian life or when Christians are idle and not doing what we’re called to do. “A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands…” Paul said that he marveled or was surprised that the Galatians (I think it was) were turning away from the Gospel they first believed– A Gospel that came with clarity and with signs or confirmation of its veracity. If we have no evidence of these ‘new truths’, we should hold lightly to them. We’re in the days of many new and false doctrines. I think it’s therefore wise to examine our doctrines closely before sharing them, especially if they are supposedly ‘new/hidden truths’.

  48. Marianne, yes, it can be hard to tell what’s satan and what’s man sometimes; but that’s why we’re all to graduate and mature through the exercise of our discernment. We need to learn to distinguish the works of the flesh, the soul, the spirit, satan, the Spirit. This makes us better judges so we don’t end up thinking that the Muslim is worse than the Christian and the terrorist or serial killer worse than the wayward pastor. The more we learn about the carnal nature in all of us, the easier we’ll be able to distinguish satan and the works of satan when they show up.

  49. I seriously doubt im going to Hell because when I was there I was on mission work, I keep having a reoccurring dream and I have had it since I was 1 that I would have to stop the Anti-Christ and therefore serve myself to be martyred in the process, even though left behind is a movie series, its going to happen. people will be left behind even if they are great Christians. But the remaining Christians that do get left behind have to preach the gospel and over throw the NEW WORLD ORDER, and yes they will persecute us but we have God on our side so who can stand against us? If we are martyred then we take it with dignity and pride because we know who we belong to and we will be with him forever and ever.

  50. http://endtimesforecaster.blogspot.com/2010/03/america-is-end-times-babylon.html

    http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/07/babylon-americas-nuclear-destruction-is-coming-2451546.html

    http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/america_babylon.htm

    Brothers and Sisters that is why Russia is going to destroy us.The USA is The Great City Of Babylon.

  51. Hi Marianne,

    I do believe in Hell……the Bible talks about about it in several scriptures. YES, God is a God of mercy and grace….BUT HE is also a GOD of judgement. We are warned about eternal destruction if we are not saved by the precious blood of the Son of the living GOD….JESUS CHRIST

    • Well said Andrea. Everlasting fire, the lake of fire, is a literal place of on-going punishment and would not be anything to be afraid of if people were just annihilated as soon as they were thrown in. If there is eternal life, then there is also eternal punishment.

  52. Yes its definitely a dark hour in this age. Yes it is incredible that Christians that have been Christians for years seem to know nothing about the Mysteries of God.
    Someone said this below:
    If satan is just carnal man, why is he not just a different entity in the Bible but is also very clearly distinguished from other people on the outside of the carnal man within each person: the Bible says that our enemies are the world, the flesh, and the devil/satan. He can’t be the flesh and the world if he’s a different entity from them altogether.
    Dear Christian friend you are so mixed up it makes no sense in this post you said above.

    The World is PEOPLE of the World – If we do not hate the WORLD John Said then we are not of God and do not possess Jesus Christ.

    Its not trees, cement buildings, flowers, streams and weather. Sin is in Civilization by the PEOPLE’S SPIRITS. Not the grass etc. My goodness.

    Gen. 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
    a. That is not the WORLD – its earth
    b. The World is a Civilization of PEOPLE with Fallen Spirits. From the beginning of time with Adam and Eve.
    c. Their babies had to crawl upon the ground. Like snakes – Yet Adam was Spoken Word out of Clay. Christ came out of the Woman’s Clay yet without sin cause their was No sex.
    d. It was another Kind of BIRTH – ANOTHER SEED NOT ADAMS
    e. The Serpent was cursed and upon his belly he would crawl and eat dust all his life.
    f. If a Snake starts talking to me – Im out of here.
    g. Its mere mankind with evil in his soul. Carnal man – beastly – Jesus called men snakes in the grass as well as did John. And all the Prophets.

    Short SEED sermon below. Hope at least one person can understand this. My Goodness I love you all – But how is it we are not spiritual in America. Or in the world as well.

    GENESIS 1:11- And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding “”seed””, and the “””fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind””, “”whose seed is in itself”””, upon the earth: and it was so.
    a. Man had the seed of a Human being when HIS day come on the 6th. day.
    b. Whose Seed was in itself.
    c. Good and Evil . Cain evil — Abel good
    d. The seed of Cain was what he was going to be and God knew that and let creation do it as well.
    e. this is why Christ was Born from SEED – The Spoken Word of God. Created a GOD/MAN from the WORD SEED. No sex or not nothing but the Word come forth in a NEW CREATION that was in the PLAN of SALVATION to come.
    f. Till Christ Came they were with Grace-Noah, and Law -Moses, and Faith as Abraham. Then Christ appeared the 2nd GOD/man. He came from Heaven not earth.
    g. To restore all that had the “seed of God” in the very beginning. That is why humanity had to wait till Christ came and died and rose again.

    GENESIS 1:12- And the earth brought forth grass, and “herb yielding seed after his kind””, and the tree yielding fruit, “””whose seed was in itself”””, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

    Mat. 13: 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which “”received seed” by the way side.
    Mat. 13:20 But he that “received the seed” into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

    MAT 13:21- Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because “”of the word””, by and by he is offended.

    Matt. 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which “sowed” – “good seed” in his field:

    Mat. 13:25- But while “”men slept””, “””his enemy came”” and “”sowed tares””” among “”the wheat””, and went his way.

    Mat. 13:26- But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, “””then appeared “”the tares””” also”””.
    a. 2 kinds of humans – those that “”love this worlds things”” and “”fall asleep”” cause they have no interest in the TRUE LIFE that is in Jesus Christ.
    b. The Serpent seed is the man like Cain that has NO INTEREST in GOD at all. He Loves Him Self in the world and all its Pleasure.
    c. SLEPT = 2518 from 2596 and heudo (to sleep);
    1. euphemistically, to be dead
    2. metaph. to yield to sloth and sin, to be indifferent to one’s salvation

    Palisade –

    • Beacon737, the Word of God is easy to understand, or else God wouldn’t expect us to follow it. First things first, otherwise everyone will have different opinions. As far back as the OT, we are given the pattern over and over as to how to employ the first things first so that God can then add the blessings of the secondary things. Ps. 133 is a good example which says that when there is order among the Saints, then the rest of things, including mysteries, will be added to us. “For God is not the author of confusion but of peace”; but we’ll have confusion and different opinions as long as we’re not in the unity of the Spirit. I’ve been saying this for years, but Christians of a western and individualistic mindset cannot yet apprehend it.

  53. I’ve heard many discussions on why hell is real, but so far no one has explained why no Jew in 6000 years has believed in it. What did they miss? How could they all be so dumb?
    Even Jesus taught the dead sleep until the resurrection.
    And if hell is the Lake of Fire, then anyone who is destined to go there will already be there when the are judged at death, so there is no need for the Great White Throne Judgement and the Lake of Fire of Revelation. And isn’t Death and Hell thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the millennium? So how is hell thrown into itself? Sounds like the bible is full of contradictions.
    You simply can’t have both sleep and resurrection plus hell and heaven at the same time. You have to pick one or the other. It is easy to explain where the word hell was placed into the bible by a church who was passionate about promoting this pagan idea at the time bibles began being written for the public. Prior to this, bible could never be taken from the church. Anyone caught with one would be imprisoned. This made it easy for the church fathers to insert words into the bible wherever they wished.
    Look at the Old Testament vs. The Torah. In the Jewish books the word sheol is always used for grave. But in the Christian Old Testament the word Hell has been substituted about half the time for sheol, just to give the impression that hell existed in the Old Testament.
    Perhaps this is why the Jews haven’t figured out about hell. They just didn’t have the right word all these years. With this knowledge do you think they need to change their theology?
    Or do we need to change ours?

    • I think i explained this already

      first of all, god did not teach the jews about hell.

      but jewish thought was present in jesus when he taught about hell…..

      jesus did NOT teach we are extinguished forever after death.

      he gave examples of hell at the time….lazarus ( who was “alive” and comforted) and the rich man..(who was tormented).

      the BODY sleeps, but the soul does not… the souls either suffers or is comforted after death while the body sleeps

      dmcal explained this also to you.

      no one could go to heaven until messiah came, and redeemed them, so the OT saints had a different experience than the NT saints

      OT had to wait in the comforting side of hell, then were released to heaven when jesus came for them

      NT did not have to wait, and could go straight to heaven to be with the Lord

      • Your description of the soul is pagan, from the Greeks. Many people throughout history have bought into the idea of an eternal soul but the bible says that God can destroy both body and should. “And the souls of the dead will be as ashes under your feet” for example. Reread the article for all the verses.
        Or just throw out the verses and go with the pagans.
        Its a simple choice.

        • And Jim continues to ignore the provided scriptures demonstrating conscious awareness after the death of the body. Just skips over everything, never responding to the proof that’s been given. Doesn’t have an answer for Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ on the mount of transfiguration, no answer for the fifth seal souls under the altar who are conversing with the Lord, no answer for Paul’s description of the departure of the spirit from the body to go and be in the presence of the Lord at the time of death. How is it that you don’t have an answer for these scriptural truths Jim? Do you just symbolize or spiritualize them all?

          ““And the souls of the dead will be as ashes under your feet”

          The above is Jim’s erroneous version of the verse. Here is the actual verse:

          “Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the LORD Almighty.”

          This verse is speaking of the bodies of the wicked being ashes under the soles of your feet, not ashes of souls under your feet Jim. The point is, the verse is speaking of the ashes from the bodies of the wicked that they will trample upon.

        • the soul is eternal unless god destroys it

          • So then if God can destroy the soul/spirit, then it was never eternal to begin with. The lake of fire will destroy both the body and the soul. It is not hell and it is not eternal. It may not even be an actual fire. It is a vision given to John and could represent some other method of disposing with the wicked.
            We won’t know for sure for another 1000 years.

      • Wait, did you say the Old Testament saints waited on the “comforting side” of hell? You mean they just sat in SOM deep underground waiting room for a couple thousand years, then when Jesus died, they all went to heaven? So hell has a comforting zone? Where did you get that from? Sorry I never read the Divine Comedy so I don’t know what Dante said about it, but clearly you are just making stuff up to try to perpetrate your silly idea. Is this what the Jews taught? They certainly don’t believe it now. And what about the bad Jews… the killers and rapists. Where did they go? And what about the Jews who would deny Jesus as the Christ? Why should they go to heaven with the rest? You are completely changing what the bible teaches in order to explain a pagan concept. Something you learned as a child and refuse to let go of no matter what the bible says.
        You are just digging yourself a bigger hole.

        • Jim said:
          “Wait, did you say the Old Testament saints waited on the “comforting side” of hell? You mean they just sat in SOM deep underground waiting room for a couple thousand years,

          Scripture says:
          “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

          25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ ”

          Ok Jim, now pay attention to verse 26 where it states that both locations are separated by a “great chasm” so that neither side could cross over. So, now you’ve read it and it’s not Dante, but comes right out of the word of God in the gospel of Luke.

          “And what about the bad Jews… the killers and rapists. Where did they go? And what about the Jews who would deny Jesus as the Christ? Why ?”

          Anyone who has rejected Jesus as Lord, whether Jew or Gentile, and are willfully living according to the sinful nature, are taken to the same place that the rich man was, to Hades where they will be in torment in flame until the end of the millennial period. So, which part of the event of the rich man and Lazarus are you not believing? It’s not my teaching, I merely copied and pasted the actual scripture. So how can you call it a pagan concept? You guys are all the same. You can’t even read a simple sentence and understand what is being said, nor will you admit when you are wrong.

        • jim

          I do not get my theology from dante….which i have read…..but from the bible.

          the sinners went to torment

          the faithful were comforted in paradise until jesus came to bring them to heaven

          jesus taught this

          he overcame death and the grave

          no one could go to heaven until the blood of messiah had been spilled for them

          but you think that all the dead are hanging out waiting for the great throne judgment which is only for sinners

          the bride will be in heaven at the wedding of the lamb…..oh oops , jesus is wrong and you are right…the bride is still dead

    • “I’ve heard many discussions on why hell is real, but so far no one has explained why no Jew in 6000 years has believed in it. What did they miss? How could they all be so dumb?”

      It’s not a matter of the Jews being dumb, they were just not privy to everything. God didn’t reveal everything to them. They knew of Sheol, which is synonymous with Hades, which is within the heart of the earth. For example, the prophets were given bits and pieces of the day of the Lord,, the wrath of God, which is still to come. Where the book of Revelation is a detailed account of that wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, I would not throw out the reality of hell/lake of fire because the Jews didn’t know about it. The fact is, we have tons of proof throughout the NT that it will be a final place of punishment.

    • “so there is no need for the Great White Throne Judgment and the Lake of Fire of Revelation”

      Jim, it is a moot point and that because scripture says that there will be great white throne judgment. And according to the chronology of events in Revelation, it will take place at the end of the thousand years. The unrighteous dead have been accumulating in Hades/sheol from the beginning of time. After the millennial period, those in Hades will be resurrected out and stand before God at the great white throne and will be judged. From there, anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire. The event of the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates that, after the rich man and Lazarus had died, their spirits/souls were conscious and aware down in the area of Hades, with the rich man on the side of torment and Lazarus in a place of temporary paradise where the spirits/souls of the OT saints went after death. Why are you opposed to scripture regarding many of these end time subjects?

    • “And isn’t Death and Hell thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of the millennium? So how is hell thrown into itself? Sounds like the bible is full of contradictions.”

      Its not a contradiction, but the problem stems from the mistranslation of the three individual words all translated as “Hell” in the NT. The word “Hell” is not even a transliteration of any Hebrew or Greek word, but has its origins in Germanic or Norse. And so, I don’t even know why the word was used or how it got into the Bible. Here are the three words:

      Tartartus: The place that the angels who had sinned, mostly the son’s of God who took wives, who were sent down into gloomy dungeons until judgment. This word is only used once in 2 Pet.2:4 and most likely the same angels are beings spoken of in Jude 6

      Hades: The realm where the spirits of the unrighteous dead go after death, which is located in the heart of the earth. The rich man and Lazarus is an example of Hades and the place of paradise across from it.

      Geenna: Wherever this word is used, it is referring to the place of final punishment also know as everlasting fire, the Lake of fire and the second death.

      Therefore to answer your question, hell is not being thrown into itself, but the spiritual entities that represent both death and hades will also be thrown into the lake of fire at the great white throne judgment. The unrighteous who will have been in Hades, will be resurrect out and then judged. Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will then be thrown into the lake of fire as well. So, there is not contradiction, as it is just a matter of understanding the difference between the three words translated as Hell. The following is an example of recognizing that the lake of fire as what is being spoken of:

      “Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for Satan and his angels.”

      “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

      From the scriptures above, we can see that “everlasting fire” and the “Lake of Fire” are referring to the final place of punishment, because everlasting fire was prepared for him and his angels and here in Revelation 20:10 we see that he is thrown into the lake of fire and therefore we know that they are both the same place.

      In my opinion, everywhere the word Hades appears should be translated as Hades and everywhere the word Geenna appears, that is the name that should be translated as well. This would make a distinction between the two places for clarity.

      Conclusion: Hades is temporary place of torment within the heart of the earth for the spirits of the unrighteous dead who will be resurrected out at the end of the thousand years and where they will then be judged and then thrown into the final place of punishment which is the lake of fired, also called the second death. Regarding both places, the souls/spirits of the unrighteous are conscious and aware in torment in flame.

      • Actually, the explanation is simpler you even you make it out to be. As I said in the article, the greek word Hades simply means Grave. So the verse really says that “Death and the grave are thrown into the Lake of Fire” and totally destroyed forever. Look at the contexto f the verse:
        Rev 20:13
        And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
        Rev 20:14
        And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
        .
        Did you catch that? At the very end of the Book of Revelation the sea gives up her dead. And death and hell delivered up their dead to be judged. But you say the dead are all judged when they die. So are people sent to hell going to be judged again? Maybe they were only in purgatory or limbo. None of this makes sense if hell means Dantes inferno.
        But when we replace the word hell with the proper word, grave we end up with:
        Rev 20:13
        And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and the graves delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
        Rev 20:14
        And death and the (need for) graves were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
        Clearly the bible is speaking of another resurrection here and not a transference of prisoners from hell back to the earth for a second judgement. The second death is the final death – in the lake of fire which kills the body and the spirit.
        .
        BTW, the word Gehenna actually refers to the Valley of Hinon outside Jerusalem whoever a trash fire burned relentlessly and was never put out – at least not till well after the time of Christ. So it may have been referred to an unquenchable fire, but take a look nowadays… it went out. Funny how you reject the translation errors I refer to and use your own when it suits your purpose.
        Jesus never talks about hell as an actual place where the dead go. The parable you keep referring to was not a real description at real people in real places. every case you use to prove hell can be explained as something else but you refuse to see it. I believe the explanations based on what the bible teaches about the dead. They sleep. They know nothing, they are unconscious. These descriptions are all over the old and New Testaments. You have to throw out 50 or 60 very clear verses in order to believe the hell thing, and you have to throw out all the history books (including catholic history books) that clearly teach that hell was a pagan concept introduced into the Catholic church after 300AD.
        Sorry but I must always weigh all the evidence and so much is so clear against hell and the only proofs are verses that use words that were added to the bible after 300AD when the concept was first introduced, and all of which are easily explained.
        So I would rather throw out the pagan concepts and stick with the bible. In fact, the teaching of hell is part of the Babylon (paganism) that will be destroyed by God before the Second Coming. When God said, “Come out of her my people” this is part of what He was referring to.
        Go ahead and look up hell in a history book and see if they refer you to the Old Testament. If they don’t, then it is pagan.
        Avoid it and its teachings.

        • Jim said:
          “As I said in the article, the greek word Hades simply means Grave. ”

          Your wrong Jim! How can you interpret Hades as being just the grave, when Luke shows the rich man in Hades being in torment in flame there? As well having a conversation with father Abraham? Does scripture not state that the rich man saw father Abraham afar off? How big is this grave? Did Abraham not tell the rich man that there was a great chasm fixed in between the two places? How do you fit that into a grave? Is this how you interpret scripture, by just ignoring the plain written text? You can’t claim that these scriptures don’t exist, which must means that you are distorting them by interpreting them as something other than literal.

          Jim said:
          “BTW, the word Gehenna actually refers to the Valley of Hinon outside Jerusalem whoever a trash fire burned relentlessly and was never put out – at least not till well after the time of Christ.”

          Yes, you are correct and Jesus used Geenna as a metaphor to describe eternal punishment. It would be kind of hard for Satan, the beast and the false prophet to be thrown into Geenna and to have no rest day or night forever and ever if it was just referring to the Valley of Hinom, don’t ya think? Jesus also said, “Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.” So, was he speaking literally or figuratively? Seeing that you are unable to discern the literal from figurative, I’m guessing that you would have us eating his literal flesh and drinking his literal blood. Do you now see that Jesus used the Valley of Hinnom figuratively to represent the place of eternal fire?

          Jim said:
          “So it may have been referred to an unquenchable fire, but take a look nowadays… it went out. ”

          The Valley of Hinnom may have gone out, but the metaphor, which would be the lake of fire, and which is a real place where the fire is not quenched, hasn’t gone out.

          Jim said:
          ” You have to throw out 50 or 60 very clear verses in order to believe the hell thing, and you have to throw out all the history books (including catholic history books) that clearly teach that hell was a pagan concept introduced into the Catholic church after 300AD.”

          First, please provide any of those 50 or 60 clear verses that you are speaking of. Second, Roman Catholicism is not Christian, but is itself pagan through and through and therefore their history books are worthless, because they’re based on Catholic dogma. Therefore, that would be a good example of the pot calling the kettle black.

          Jim said:
          “When God said, “Come out of her my people” this is part of what”

          No Jim, by everything that you have told me, you have no idea at all of what the word of God says on any topic. The above that you quoted, is God who will be calling his people to come out of Mystery Bablyon, that woman who rides the beast, which is that great city that sits on seven hills, which is Rome and the headquarters of her pagan system that is pretending to be of Christ.

          Jim said:
          “Go ahead and look up hell in a history book and see if they refer you to the Old Testament. If they don’t, then it is pagan.”

          Your suggestion is exactly why your claims are false. Looking up scripture using a history book is not a valid source for the truth. The word of God is where the source of all God’s truth is and he most certainly does teach that there is eternal fire, also called the lake of fire and it is a literal place of on-going punishment.

          “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

          The word destruction there, is complete ruin of the individual in the lake of fire and does not refer to annihilation of the body. Again, an individual cannot have no rest day or night unless they are conscious and aware of their existence.

        • the bodies are dead, the souls are in their location, heaven or hell

  54. To all
    When you grieve the Holy Spirit away. You will become a satan cause that is all that is left for you to become.
    God does not prevent or pervert people to death. They do it to themselves.

    God allowed mankind to become Satan’s if they chose to. by FREE WILL
    If Satan created himself he would be the “Same as the Almighty God” who could create out of nothing. But “”Satan cannot create out of nothing”” because he is a Fallen man. but he can pervert what God already created only. That was mankind’s free will yet God being God is the Alpha and Omega. HE knew the Wheat seed from the Tares seed. Which takes them to their death or Eternal life. God knew their choice.

    As I heard the Prophet Bro. Branham say once- God makes His own Police dept. To keep things in line and in their proper setting. If you know the 7 fundamental names of God you can see it a little better. Like police today. Gods policemans were HIS Angels. And I know you will probably moan and grown over this statement. They every one was Jesus Christ in different Angels for the crime or judgment that must come upon many. Even in the O.T this is true. It was Christ that was in Moses. Judging the people. It was not time for Christ to come and die and raise in Moses day. Michael, and many names of Angels. Look up the Meaning and you we see the “Attribute” of what HE does. Yet it is all Christ doing it. Just showing his judgment and or peace to the people.

    God Knows how to punish mankind. But Praise God He is full of mercy, and Love and willing for none not to go to hell. But Jesus knew the whole world would not receive him. Their are 2 seeds only. Those 2 seeds had to have War. HAD TO. To be tested worthy of the Crown of Jesus Christ. Its not always a walk in the park keeping your Children safe from the enemies of the World. Let alone yourself as well.

    The disciples had the FIRE of God in them. That “fire” WENT INTO them. Was their Deliverance from Death, hell, and Grave. A “little piece of God” goes into every convert that wants a Conversion and Deliverance. Yet they had to continually stay in the “Word of God” with an OPEN MIND I might add.
    Jesus spoke things that were foreign to most of the religious Jews and His disciples had no idea what he was talking about either “till they were baptized into the FIRE of God”. Why did all the people kill the Prophets that were sent to them. Come on now.
    Jesus said it. —- Their Message was a “”burden”” and the Prophets had to deliver them and most died by the religious Jews. Most Jews did not possess the Holy Spirit yet some did as well.

    Thus saith the Lord. Will always sound like a perversion of some kind who do not posses the FIRE of God in their being. That Eternal Fire was God the ONLY consuming Eternal fire their is. It will save you or it will judge you to death.
    You would have had to have the Eternal Fire that the Disciples received. To go to HELL. I know it sounds delusional. We Believers and Disciples of Christ in this Day have to be BURNT out COMPLETELY sold out to Christ. Christians want to be burnt out and set free from this world and its satans with their lying and idols. The Worlds thoughts mean nothing to Jesus Christ. We must die to our Own thinking and hear what the Spirit saith to us each one at a time. Just like the disciples and all the martyr’s and Antipas’s. Prisoners of love.
    Satan people are scared to death of the Power of the Fire of God. Because they do not want consumed into anything that they cannot control. They are happy in their sleep walk of darkness with their lust, money, fame, idols, sex, pleasure, and lying, and stealing and killing etc etc. That is their god.

    The Eternal fire is right in Gods people right now honing them and building them up and teaching them the Word.
    The World is just waiting for their 2nd. Death. They have no destiny. Our future. But they will not hear your worlds.

    Palisade.

  55. Dmcal52 is on top of it regarding eternal destiny and the designations of Hades vs. the lake of fire, the beast vs. satan, etc. With all the false and extra-biblical teachings on just this topic, it’s refreshing to realize why God purposed for the Church to function according to His and not our pattern.

    I was talking to a pastor today and started to understand even more clearly why God didn’t just leave us with the Bible but also with the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that it takes two or three witnesses to establish truth. This safeguards against false doctrine which anyone can twist out from the Bible but which the Holy Spirit will never ratify as well as guarding against, on the other hand, false spiritual gifts and false ‘moves of the Spirit’ which the Bible does not verify.

    The Bible says that there’s a real eternal punishment to escape, and the Holy Spirit, as He does with Jesus’ words, bears witness with this truth. Many people see a wrathful or hateful God in the OT and in the eternal punishment of the wicked; but eyes of faith see Love as the primary [motive] in all of it, from the OT till now. Whatever one sees, it’s important for Christians to become fools in order to be wise and to therefore have this attitude: “YOUR Word is truth.” (Jn. 17:17b.) ♥ ╰(*´︶`*)╯ ♥

  56. Here is an article from
    Read this carefully if you really want to know the truth of hell:
    .
    Lazarus and the Rich Man

    The parable of Lazarus and the rich man has been the foundation for many of the erroneous beliefs about “hell” within traditional Christianity. Some have viewed it not as a parable, but as a true story Christ told to give details about the punishment of sinners in hell. Yet a thorough, unbiased examination of this story will show that the generally accepted interpretations of this passage of Scripture are fallacious and misleading. In this article, we will go through the parable verse by verse to determine what Christ was truly teaching.
    .
    Those who insist that this is not a parable, but a true, literal story Christ told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion. First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life. Furthermore, Lazarus is never proclaimed to be a righteous man. He is just one who had the misfortune to be poor and unable to care for himself. If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?
    .
    If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up? Additionally, if hell (as it is traditionally taught) is an abyss of fire and brimstone where sinners are tormented forever, does anyone really believe that one drop of water would relieve the pain and anguish of someone suffering in its flames?
    .
    These are just some of the difficulties we encounter when we try to make the account of Lazarus and the rich man literal, instead of realizing that it is a parable. If it is a true story, then all of the things Christ said must be factual. If all the points of the story are not literal, then we must view this tale as an analogy Jesus used to teach larger spiritual truths.
    .
    Most people think that the Messiah spoke in parables to make the meaning clearer for the uneducated people he was teaching. Reflecting this belief, an appendix to the NKJV says that “Jesus’ reputation as a great teacher spread far and wide. And no wonder. He taught in parables, simple stories, that made His lessons clear to all who were ready to learn” (“Man for All Times,” p. 1870). Yet Christ said his purpose for speaking to the people in parables was exactly the opposite of the explanation cited above.
    .
    MATTHEW 13:1 On the same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2 And great multitudes were gathered together to Him, so that He got into a boat and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. 3 Then He spoke many things to them in parables . . . 10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; 15 for the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.'” (NKJV)
    .
    As this passage and the parallel Scripture in Mark 4 clearly state, Yeshua spoke to the people in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of what he was saying. He only intended for his disciples to understand what the parables truly meant. It is no wonder, then, that so many have misunderstood what Christ was teaching with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
    .
    Let’s start by getting some background information on the situation in which Christ told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to Christ to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1). This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were probably envious of Christ’s growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.
    .
    So the Messiah first spoke a three-part parable (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him. This parable was designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.
    .
    The self-righteous, accusing Pharisees and scribes, who Christ acknowledged as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God’s love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn’t measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).
    .
    Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Christ related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were “lovers of money” (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Jesus. The final part of Christ’s response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
    .
    We’ll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the Kingdom of God.
    .
    LUKE 16:19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.” (NKJV)
    .
    We begin by scrutinizing the description Christ gives us of the rich man. First, he tells us that this man is clothed in purple and fine linen. This type of clothing would not have been out of the ordinary for one of considerable wealth during this time period. However, this raiment also has symbolic meaning. The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says: “The wearing of purple was associated particularly with royalty . . .” (“Purple,” p. 863). In addition, the New Bible Dictionary tells us: “The use of linen in OT times was prescribed for priests (Ex. 28:39). The coat, turban and girdle must be of fine linen.” (“Linen,” p. 702).
    .
    So we see that the garments worn by this rich man were symbolic of royalty and the priesthood. With that in mind, let’s see what God told Moses just before giving the Israelites the Law on Mount Sinai.
    .
    EXODUS 19:6 And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel. (Brenton’s LXX)
    .
    The clothing of the rich man identifies him symbolically with the people of Israel, who God chose to be a special people. They were called to be a witness to the nations surrounding them, confirming the blessings available to those who would obey God and keep His laws. Unfortunately, only infrequently did they live up to the high calling given to them by the Eternal. Eventually He had to send them into captivity for their refusal to honor their part of the covenant ratified at Mount Sinai. At the time of Christ, only the remnant of the house of Judah which had returned from the Babylonian captivity continued to have a covenant relationship with God. The rich man in this parable represents the Jews of Jesus’ day, exemplified by the religious teachers, the Pharisees and scribes.
    .
    Verse 19 also tells us that the rich man “fared sumptuously every day.” Figuratively, this represents the magnificent spriritual feast available only to the Jews, who were the sole remaining part of God’s called people Israel. In the first century A.D., they were the only people on earth who had the true religion. Indeed, Paul recounts the glorious station of the house of Judah in Romans 9:3-5.
    .
    ROMANS 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; 5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen. (RSV)
    .
    The Jews were truly rich, feasting on God’s spiritual blessings. Yet these very gifts caused them to stumble because they prompted them to self-righteousness. They gloried in the gifts, without glorifying the Eternal God who gave them. Instead of being a “royal priesthood” that was a blessing to all nations, they instead loathed and despised the surrounding Gentile peoples. Certainly, as Paul wrote, “their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them” (Rom. 11:9).
    .
    LUKE 16:20 “But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.” (NKJV)
    .
    In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus. The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who “laid at the gate” of Judah. Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they received Christ in Ephesians 2:12.
    .
    EPHESIANS 2:12 Remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (RSV)
    .
    This Scripture is also a fitting representation of the position of the Gentile nations before the Messiah’s sacrifice for the world’s sins. They were certainly “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel,” “strangers to the covenants of promise,” and “without hope and without God in the world.” The Gentiles were beggars, located outside Judah and longing to be fed spiritual crumbs from the table of the divinely blessed Jews.
    .
    Additionally, we are told that dogs came and consoled Lazarus in his misery, licking his sores. The Jews considered the surrounding Gentiles to be unclean “dogs.” Even Christ himself used this unflattering comparison when he conversed with the Greek Syrophoenician woman while in the region of Tyre (Mark 7:24-30).
    .
    Also important to the story is the meaning of the name Lazarus. This Greek name is a form of the Hebrew Eleazer, and it literally means “he whom God helps.” The use of this particular name is very significant to the message of the parable, for the Gentiles would indeed become “those whom God helped” through the sacrifice of His son, Yeshua.
    .
    LUKE 16:22 “So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.” (NKJV)
    .
    The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.
    .
    First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let’s examine exactly what we are told by Christ. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. Notice, there is no mention of his burial here. Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham’s bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades after his death.
    .
    If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God.
    .
    HEBREWS 11:13 All these [Abraham, Noah, Abel, etc.] died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. . . . 39 And all these [including Abraham], having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect. (NASB)
    .
    The great men and women of faith listed in Hebrews 11 have not yet been made perfect and given eternal life. They, along with all the saints of God from every age, are currently sleeping in their graves (Job 3:11-19; Psa. 6:5; 115:17; Ecc. 9:5, 10; I Cor. 15:20; Isa. 57:1-2; Dan. 12:2; Acts 2:29, 34; 13:36). These saints are awaiting the first resurrection, which will take place when Yeshua the Messiah returns at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Matt. 24:30-31; I Cor. 15:51-52; I The. 4:16; Rev. 11:15-18).
    .
    Clearly, there is no way to reconcile the numerous Scriptures listed above with a literal understanding of the story of Lazarus and the rich man. What, then, does the death of these two men represent?
    .
    The deaths of both the rich man (who represented the Jews) and Lazarus (who represented the Gentile nations) are symbolic in this parable. Here, their demise depicts an elemental change in the status and position of the two groups.
    .
    To confirm this, let’s look at the meaning of Lazarus being “carried to Abraham’s bosom.” The figurative meaning of being in one’s bosom is to be in a position of closeness, to be highly regarded. This symbolism is indicated by the ancient practice of having guests at a feast recline on the chest of their neighbors. The place of highest honor would therefore belong to the one seated next to the host, calling to mind the example of John at the Last Supper (John 13:23). Paul explains this imagery in Galatians 3:6-9 by telling us how the Gentiles could be in this place of highest honor.
    .
    GALATIANS 3:6 . . . Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. (NKJV)
    .
    As the passage above (as well as the fourth and ninth chapters of Romans) shows, Gentile believers become “sons of Abraham” through faith in Christ. This faith allows Gentiles to no longer be “strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God” (Eph. 2:19). For centuries the Jews had received the benefits of being God’s chosen people by virtue of being Abraham’s physical descendants. But after the sacrifice of Christ, this place of honor and blessing would be given to the people represented by Lazarus. This is the meaning of being “carried to the bosom of Abraham” in this parable.

    In contrast to Lazarus, the rich man was buried in Hades. An understanding of the original meaning of the Greek word hades is necessary to grasp the message of the parable. Regarding the possible etymology of this word, the The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology states that hades “. . . comes from idein (to see) with the negative prefix, a-, and so would mean the invisible . . . In the LXX hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb. she’ol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is the land of darkness . . .” (vol. 2, p. 206).
    .
    Most likely, hades originally meant “unseen.” Later, it came to refer to the hidden state of those buried in the earth. Symbolically, this parable shows that a point would come when the house of Judah would become “unseen” by God, out of favor because of their unbelief. There would come a time when the Jews as a whole would no longer be God’s favored nation. Their hard hearts would lead them to reject their Messiah (John 1:11).
    .
    LUKE 16:23 “And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” (NKJV)
    .
    What did Christ mean by saying here that the rich man was in “torments in Hades”? The key to discovering the symbolic meaning of this verse is the Greek noun basanois, translated “torments” above.
    .
    According to Friberg’s Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament, basanois, which is a form of the noun basanos, means “strictly, a touchstone for testing the genuineness of metals by rubbing against it . . .”
    .
    The etymology of basanos found in Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament is very helpful in correctly understanding this verse:
    .
    In non-biblical Gk. [basanos] is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of [basanos, basanizein] . . . In the spiritual sphere it has the figur[ative] sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing . . .
    .
    The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. [Basanos] now comes to denote “torture” or “the rack,” espec[ially] used with slaves . . . [Basanos] occurs in the sense of “torment” . .
    The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment. If we put men instead of metal or a coin, the stone of testing become[s] torture or the rack. The metal which has survived the testing stone is subjected to harsher treatment. Man is in the same position when severely tested by torture. In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving, though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torture remained (vol. I, pp. 561, 562, emphasis mine).
    .
    In this verse, basanois simply conveys a sense of testing and proving through punishment. When this understanding is combined with a proper discernment of the symbolism of Hades, we can begin to see the point Yeshua is making. As a whole, the house of Judah would to be cut off and replaced during this current age by those Gentiles who in faith would accept the sacrifice of the Messiah.
    .
    If the Pharisees and scribes understood this prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated those who listened as Christ spoke. The implication that the house of Judah and the Gentile nations were to change places, with the Jews becoming alienated from God while the Gentiles were to become the “seed of Abraham,” would have been almost impossible for them to believe.
    .
    LUKE 16:24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'” (NKJV)

    First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in “this flame” (singular, not “these flames”). It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

    The word rendered “torment” here is a form of the Greek verb odunao, which literally means “grief,” “pain,” or “suffering.” Predominantly, it conveys the sense of mental anguish, not physical pain. Forms of this word are found only four times in the Scriptures, all in the writings of Luke. It appears twice in this parable, in verses 24 and 25. In Luke 2:48, it is used to describe the anxious distress that Mary and Joseph felt after they discovered the 12-year old Jesus missing on the trip home from Jerusalem after the Passover feast. In Acts 20:38, it depicts the sorrow the elders of the Ephesian Church felt at Paul’s farewell announcement that they would never see him again.

    The rich man cries out from the symbolic darkness of Hades for comfort because of the suffering caused by the flame. The explanation of the symbolism of the flame will require a little background information.
    .
    In Deuteronomy 11 and 28, Moses delineates God’s part in His covenant with Israel. Moses told them that if they obeyed the Eternal, they would be the most blessed nation on earth. Conversely, if they disobeyed, God promised to curse and eventually destroy them because of their sins.
    .
    As the history of Israel in the Tanakh shows, only rarely did they obey God. Although the Eternal was patient and forgave them many times when they repented and turned back to Him, eventually He was forced to curse Israel as He had vowed to do.
    .
    First the house of Israel, the ten tribes that composed the northern kingdom with Samaria as their capital, was carried into captivity by Assyria (c. 722 B.C.). Hosea, who prophesied during the end of the northern kingdom, said this about God’s chosen people who were called to be a royal priesthood and a holy nation.
    .
    HOSEA 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (NKJV)
    .
    Then, about 135 years later, the southern kingdom of Judah was subdued and finally conquered by Babylon (c. 587 B.C.). God had delivered His people to their enemies, as He had promised.
    .
    The people of Judah were given another chance. After the Persians defeated the Babylonians, the Jews were allowed to return to Judea (c. 538 B.C.) and eventually they rebuilt the Temple. Chastened and aware that their sins had brought about the captivity, many sought to obey God’s laws upon their return to the land.
    .
    But by the time of Christ, once again unbelief had become a major problem. Many of the religious teachers of the day had substituted human traditions for the laws God had given Israel (Matt. 15:1-9; Mark 7:1-13). Because of their lack of faith, they didn’t really believe the very Scriptures they professed to follow (John 5:39, 45-47). In the end, they rejected the anointed one God sent to them and had the Romans crucify him.
    .
    Now back to the question at hand. What does the flame in the parable represent?
    .
    When one looks at the history of the Jewish people from the time of Christ until today, one theme remains constant — persecution. With the quashing of the Jewish revolts against Rome (66-70 A.D. and 132-135 A.D.), the saga of the Jewish people in the Diaspora has been one of persistent and harsh persecution from virtually all quarters. The Inquisition of the 15th century and the Holocaust of the 20th century are two of the more well-known anti-semitic episodes, but many more are recorded on the bloody pages of history. For their unbelief and rejection of truth and knowledge, the Jews have been cursed by God with the “flame” of suffering and grief down through the centuries. Unfortunately, most of that mistreatment has come at the hands of those who called themselves “Christians.”
    .
    The Jews pictured by the rich man in this parable are in their present state because of their unbelief, which ultimately manifested itself in the rejection of the Messiah, Yeshua. Unfortunately, this parable shows that the punishment and testing they would undergo would not immediately lead them to Christ. Instead of calling on the Messiah, the rich man calls on his ancestor Abraham to help ease his suffering.
    .
    LUKE 16:25 “But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. (NKJV)
    .
    Abraham clearly identifies the rich man as his descendant by calling him “son.” He tells him that things have changed. When the Jews were God’s chosen people, they enjoyed the spiritual blessings associated with that status. But now, Abraham says, Lazarus is enjoying those blessings while the rich man is grieving and in sorrow. “Tormented” here is another form of odunao, the same Greek verb found above in verse 24.
    .
    LUKE 16:26 “‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.'” (NKJV)
    .
    What is the “great gulf” which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the eleventh chapter of Romans. He tells us that because of the Jews’ unbelief, “God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day” (Rom. 11:8). Paul goes on to say that “a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in” (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul tells us that the Israelites’ “minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.”
    .
    The “great gulf” mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God’s blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It’s not that the Jewish nation won’t acknowledge Christ; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God’s actions! Yet because of the Eternal’s great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).
    .
    LUKE 16:27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'” (NKJV)
    .
    Yielding himself to his destiny, the rich man asks one more thing of his forefather Abraham. He pleads with him to send someone to warn his brothers, so that they may escape “this place of torment” (basanou), the testing and punishment that he was undergoing.
    .
    The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).
    .
    While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Christ was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who He was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the house of Judah, the Jews!
    .
    LUKE 16:29 “Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'” (NKJV)
    .
    Once again Abraham refuses the rich man’s request, telling him that the brothers already have a witness in the writings of Moses and the prophets that will allow them to escape his fate. Moses, as well as the prophets, are shown several times in the New Testament to support Yeshua’s identity as the Messiah (Luke 24:27, 44; John 1:45; 5:46; Acts 3:22-24; 7:37; 26:22-23; 28:23). Abraham tells the rich man that his brothers would have to recognize the prophesied Messiah because of the things written about him in the Tanakh. This echoes what Yeshua told the Jews in John 5:45-47.
    .
    JOHN 5:45 “Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you — Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (NKJV)
    .
    As the Scriptures show, the Jewish leaders of Christ’s day generally failed to recognize the very one Moses wrote about (Deu. 18:15, 18).
    .
    LUKE 16:30 “And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'” (NKJV)
    .
    Christ uses the last two verses of this parable as an amazing prophecy of his pending resurrection from the dead. The rich man says that although his brothers may not accept the scriptural evidence for the identity of the Messiah, they will accept the evidence of one who is raised from the dead.
    .
    But Abraham answers and plainly tells him that anyone who rejects God’s Word about the Messiah will also refuse to acknowledge the evidence of a miraculous resurrection. This last verse is a sad prophecy about the Jews and about all the Israelites who have not, despite God’s resurrection of His son from the power of the grave, recognized Christ as the Messiah.
    .
    Christ ends this parable abruptly, with no real resolution presented. The picture presented is a bleak one, yet there is hope for the Jews and for all Israel. In Romans 11, Paul laid out that hope in such a manner that scarcely few today have really believed it.
    .
    In Romans 11:1 Paul rhetorically asks if God has cast away His people, Israel. He answers his own question emphatically by saying “Certainly not!” He tells us that God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Paul writes that there is currently a remnant of Israel, analogous to the seven thousand reserved to God in Elijah’s time (I Kings 19:18), that God has elected by grace. The rest God hardened, that the Gentiles might also be included in salvation through grace. He gives the resolution of the situation in verse 26.
    .
    ROMANS 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 for this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (NKJV)
    .
    The same God that blinded Israel unto disobedience will have mercy on all that have been rebellious due to that blindness. To quote Paul once again, “Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!” Praised be the Eternal Creator of all things!
    .
    CONCLUSION
    .
    The parable of Lazarus and the rich man, long used by mainstream ministers to teach the reality of “hell,” really has nothing to say about punishment or reward in the afterlife. Christ used this story, which fit the common misconception about life after death in his day, to show the fate that awaited the Jewish nation because of the unbelief and faithlessness which led them to reject him as the Messiah. They still suffer from that fate to this very day. Yet the time is soon coming when God will pour on the Jews the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Christ whom they pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zec. 12:10).
    .
    Bryan T. Huie
    .
    Thanks Bryan Brilliant work.

    • jim

      this idiot bryan and you should be ashamed.

      this is the most stupid, unbiblical, uninspired piece of garbage I have ever read….

      it is replacement theology and it is trash

      I read he just died, so he is now down there with the rich man. do you want to join him?

      the false meanings he arbitrarily assigned to this parable are inappropriate and outrageous, and it indicates that you are both apostates of the faith

      jesus was not discussing replacement theology.

      his focus he had stated was on the jews salvation….ministry to the gentiles would come later with the apostles……

      lazarus is a hebrew name, not a gentile name.

      if jesus wanted to portray a gentile, he would have used a gentile name, like jim, or fred

      and the pharasees did not represent all jews anyhow.

      most jews loved jesus,

      only a handful had him put to death

      both the poor man and the rich man were hebrews.

      one was a sinner who was corrupted by his wealth….and the other one was a simple poor man who had the mercy of god on him.

      why would a gentile in the time of Jesus be in abrahams’ bosom? that is stupid. they were pagans at the time.

      while gentiles would eventually be grafted into the faith, the jews were the original believers, and many are still believers today. you seem to forget that the original church was made up of jews, not gentiles. many jews were brought into the faith DAILY, sometimes 5000 at a time through witnessing.

      the torment was just that….the torment of hell. bryan sure tried to twist this all up. he is with his daddy lucifer now, discussing where he went wrong.

      at the time of jesus before the resurrection, there were 2 compartments to hell….paradise where lazarus was, and other faithful jews, and the place of torment where the rich man was……once jesus died, he went to hell, took out all the faithful, like abraham and lazarus, and took them to heaven. then hell expanded to be all torment, as any other believer who died after that would be directly with the Lord.

      you need to get your brain right.

      you are so lost!

    • Jim, I’m not going to reply to your book above, but only to say that everything you wrote is simply circumvention. You have to get rid of the rich man and Lazarus as a literal event and that because it kills your theory of sleep of the soul/spirit after death. But I was preemptive in that, I listed the parable of the wheat and tares and as usual, you ignored it. A parable consists of symbolism representing the literal. The rich man and Lazarus is referencing real people and the real location of Hades. There is nothing in the event of the rich man and Lazarus to constitute a parable. Amil’s have to get rid of all of these proofs because it just kills their whole position.

    • Jim said:
      “First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life.”

      Jesus never accuses the rich man because he is revealing an event that took place. Also, Jesus does not have accuse the rich man of sin and that because the fact that he is in Hades in torment in flame tells the reader that he is unrighteous. The reason that the rich man is in there is because he had no compassion on Lazarus who was laid at his gate in hopes of eating the crumbs from the rich man’s table. Therefore, just by telling the story Jesus is stating that the rich man was unrighteous because of where he wound up.

      Jim said:
      “If this story is literal, then the logical implication is that all the rich are destined to burn in hell, while all the homeless and destitute will be saved. Does anyone believe this to be the case?”

      Jim, you have warped thought process! It is not a logical assumption that the rich are destined to burn in hell. If the rich man had gone out and brought Lazarus in, feeding and clothing him and whatever else his need was, he would have been demonstrating compassion like the example of the good Samaritan and would not have ended up in Hades.

      Jim said:
      “If hell is truly as it is pictured in this story, then the saved will be able to view the lost who are burning there. Could anyone enjoy eternal existence if they were able to see lost friends, family, and acquaintances being incinerated in hell, yet never burning up?”

      You really don’t study do you? According to scripture, the OT saints were on the side of paradise, with Hades across from it which was a place of torment, separated by a great chasm. This is what scripture says, so who are you to question it?

      Jim said:
      “As this passage and the parallel Scripture in Mark 4 clearly state, Yeshua spoke to the people in parables to hide the spiritual meaning of what he was saying. He only intended for his disciples to understand what the parables truly meant. It is no wonder, then, that so many have misunderstood what Christ was teaching with the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.”

      As previously stated, parables are stories with obvious symbolism which represent the literal, and are easy to recognize, eg.

      Sower = Son of Man
      Seed = Word of God
      Field = The world
      Enemy = Satan
      Wheat = Son’s of the kingdom
      Tares = Son’s of the evil one
      Harvester’s = Angels
      Harvest = End of the age
      Etc., etc.

      That being said, (again) the rich man and Lazarus does not have any symbolism in it, but uses real people and the real location of Hades.

      Why are you opposed to the literal word of God that you have to look for some other interpretation for any given topic, instead of what is plainly written?

  57. Hey dmcal,
    You know everything about hell, it seems, so where is it exactly. It is supposed to be deep inside the earth, but where? The core of the earth is 35 million degrees, so it can’t be there. To hold billions of people it must be a huge cavern, and with all the fires there is a great need of oxygen so there must be intake and exhaust vents to bring in fresh air and exhaust the CO2 to keep the system working.
    Geologists have mapped the interior of the earth through earthquakes and man-made explosions and have found no such a chamber nor the necessary vents.
    So give us your wisdom on this matter. And where is that comfort zone that Marianne mentioned?
    Does it have air conditioning? How about WiFi? After all, all those people need something to do for thousands of years. How I’d God going to keep all the people in heaven busy? Is heaven just like earth or is it maybe a star ship with cramped quarters? Where in the bible does it describe these details? So many people over the years have made up their own descriptions of these places, but I can’t find it in the bible. Look at the detail Ezekiel put just into on building – the millenial temple. Where does he describe heaven and hell?
    But I figured you would have been able to figure all this out without needing to refer to the bible.
    So like Dante, please fill us in.

    • why don’t you ask God?

      • I did. I looked in His book and found hell is not in there.
        Either the dead sleep till the resurrection or they go to heaven or hell and stay there and there won’t be ant resurrection.
        I’m planning on the resurrection, since it is covered in the bible.
        Not so for hell. Only the word was inserted into it later by the Catholic church. That is a fact of history.
        You’ve been fooled by Babylon. Just as the bible predicts.

        • you cherry picked certain scriptures and ignored others

          then you applied an incorrect interpretation

          i suggest you ask god to have the holy spirit minister to you, and lead you into a more spirit led interpretation of scripture

          • I listed every verse dealing with the dead and sleep. They all concur that the dead seep until resurrected either to eternal life or destruction in the Lake of Fire (and eternal shame – to the living). How do you refute these words both in the Old Testament and the New Testament and spoken by Jesus Himself.
            I don’t know how you can throw these out. They are what all Jews have ever believed. And you claim God deceived the Jews? They didn’t deserve to know the truth?
            That doesn’t sound like God to me.

            • you do not understand what you are reading.

              for the 10th time, the OT “death” is different from NT

              jesus changed it so we go to heaven or hell when we die

            • Jim,

              The problem stems from you not understanding that sleep is referring to the body, which is sleeping in the dust of the earth. The word of God mentions both sleep and also demonstrates that there is conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death. Therefore, if you apply sleep to include the soul/spirit, then will you always be running into a wall regarding the scriptures that show conscious awareness of the spirit. This in turn forces you to circumvent those scriptures to make them fit your sleep position. The only logical conclusion is that sleep is referring to the body only. Once the resurrection and catching away takes place, then for those who will have died prior to the Lord’s appearing, their bodies will rise and be reunited with spirits/souls which Christ will bring with him.

        • It is because you don’t pay attention to what anyone says. Jesus said,

          “Don’t fear those who after they kill the body that is all that they can do, but I’ll tell you who you ought to fear. Fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Geenna.”

          As I said to you earlier, the word Geenna is synonymous with the lake of fire, which is the second death. Unlike Hades, the location of Geenna , the lake of fire, is not revealed. I have demonstrated to you that those who go into the lake of fire will have no rest day or night, but will be tormented forever and ever. But you don’t pay attention to the meaning of the words “No rest” and “day or night” which is meant to show that there is no intermission or cessation form that torment.

          As far as Roman Catholicism inserting the word hell, I can look at the original Greek and see that the words Hades and Geenna are in the original and I can see it in the Codex Sinaiticus, which was the first complete Greek Bible written around 350 AD. It’s in there, you just refuse to acknowledge it.

          My advice to you Jim, is to take a serious look at the word of God with fresh eyes.

    • Jim said:
      “You know everything about hell, it seems, so where is it exactly. It is supposed to be deep inside the earth, but where? The core of the earth is 35 million degrees, so it can’t be there. To hold billions of people it must be a huge cavern, and with all the fires there is a great need of oxygen so there must be intake and exhaust vents to bring in fresh air and exhaust the CO2 to keep the system working.”

      Yes, Hades is in the heart of the earth, the location is really irrelevant. I don’t believe that neither temperature nor oxygen nor number of people is really an issue, since it is a spiritual realm. Their bodies are dead remember? We’re talking about spirits here, who though they obviously are affected by the flame being in torment, there would be no physical bodies to take up space nor would oxygen be an issue.

      Jim is being silly now:
      “Does it have air conditioning? How about WiFi? After all, all those people need something to do for thousands of years.”

      Jim, it’s a place of punishment, remember? It’s not the Holiday Inn! Their only purpose for being there is to be in torment because they rejected Christ, being unfaithful.

      Jim said:
      “Is heaven just like earth or is it maybe a star ship with cramped quarters? Where in the bible does it describe these details?”

      For details on heaven, read Ezekiel chapters 1 and 10, Isaiah 6:1 and the book of Revelation for starters. I’m sure that there are other places within scripture that describe some aspect of heaven. And yes, I am giving you these answers without looking them up as I usually do and that because I have been over these biblical topics so much that I know the answers and where to find them, since you mentioned it. Also, Dante is fiction.

  58. Tell me something,
    If all the righteous dead are in heaven, then why does the bible say that at the Second Coming, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will be changed and meet Jesus in the clouds. Shouldn’t the righteous dead be coming down from heaven with Jesus rather than rising from their graves? This sounds like a resurrection of the dead to me. Just as the bible teaches.
    Listen, when I die I expect to awaken in the air meeting Jesus at the Second Coming. Others here think they will wake up in heaven somewhere, whatever that is. Whether or not being correct now will make any difference remains to be seen. Perhaps God doesn’t like being called a vindictive God taking pleasure in punishing billions of human beings for eternity. But if you are right about hell than this is true about God so maybe it doesn’t matter.
    Only time will reveal the truth.

    • the dead bodies will be raised in a glorified form, and be reunited with their spirits

      • But without a body, the spirit has no way to see, speak, hear or even think. So the spirit is in heaven with God, but it knows nothing – as the bible states.
        And by the way, you can’t get me to believe that God says one thing for 4000 years then changes it all completely for 2000 more years. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And such a complete change deserves a whole book in the New Testament. Not just clever translation of a half dozen bible verses.
        Jesus confirmed the Old Testament about sleep. If he was going to change it all, why would he still speak of sleep?
        Sorry, I’m buying a 180 on death in the middle of the bible.

        • you do not understand the bible and i cannot help you.

          the spirit can see think etc

          the body cannot

          how dense are you?

          I believe you are a government agent here to create trouble

          • Marianne,
            Psalm 146:3-4:
            “Do not trust in princes,
            In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
            4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
            In that very day his thoughts perish..”
            “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything…” (Ecc. 9:5).
            These (and other) verses are clear that the dead are not conscious. They are simple verses, easy to understand.
            So how do you get out of this that only the flesh bodies are unconscious but the should lives on in heaven and can see, hear, speak etc.? It says none of that. You have added that out of your own imagination in order to reconcile it with what you’ve been taught your whole life.
            Jesus was a few. He taught Judaism – from the Old Testament.
            He spoke of Lazarus as having fallen asleep – meaning death.
            He spoke of King David, who died, fell asleep and is in his grave to that day.
            Does that sound like a man who was trying to change all those beliefs? Why didn’t he have a sermon on this HUGE change in previous theology?
            To someone analytical like myself these questions raise a huge red flag. They can’t make sense if you believe in heaven and hell.
            Then I discovered how hell had been reverse-engineered into the bible, and everything became clear. Now all the verses make sense, even the ones using the word hell instead of grave.
            And when you discover how the word hell was added to the Old Testament as well, while the Torah never uses the word, you realize the scope of the conspiracy.
            And you believe in conspiracies, don’t you!

            • if you think jesus had nothing to add to understanding the next life, then you are willfully ignorant’

              he died to spare us from hell, but hell is “nothing,” then he died in vain

        • Jim,

          Obviously by these claims, you haven’t studied as much as you have led everyone to believe you have. When we read about those souls under the altar in heaven and we see them speaking with the Lord and are given robes to where, then this gives us an understanding that the spirit can speak after it leaves the body, spirit to spirit and that because they are doing it right there as you read it. Since we see that the rich man and Lazarus both died and then we see the rich man conversing with Abraham, then don’t you believe that he is actually speaking to him. That is your proof right there! We read that both Moses and Elijah appear on the mount and are speaking to Jesus about his departure, so obviously they can speak. Nothing is impossible with God. That verse that you keep using in Ecclesiastes is speaking about the body which is asleep and knows nothing. How is it that you pit one scripture against all the other scriptures that show conscious awareness of the spirit after death?

    • Jim said:
      “If all the righteous dead are in heaven, then why does the bible say that at the Second Coming, the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive will be changed and meet Jesus in the clouds. Shouldn’t the righteous dead be coming down from heaven with Jesus rather than rising from their graves? ”

      Answer:
      First of all, you need to understand that the resurrection and catching away and Christ’s return to the earth to end the age, are two separate events. The first event is when the Lord appears and removes the church, dead and living, from the earth. The second event is where Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. Those who are resurrected, are those who will have died prior to the Lord’s appearing. These will rise first, that is, their bodies will rise and be changed into those glorified bodies and their spirits that Christ will have brought with him will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive will be changed into their glorified bodies and be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. The whole group is then taken back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3)

      “For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.”

      When Jesus appears in the air, he brings with him the souls/spirits that have been in heaven with him and their bodies are resurrected and changed into those glorified bodies and their spirits/souls are then reunited with those now resurrected bodies. Once they are resurrection up, those believers who are still alive and are left on the earth will be changed in a moment into those glorified bodies and then will be caught with the resurrected group.

      Regarding the second coming, that is, when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, there will be a resurrection of the great tribulation saints as seen in Rev.20:4. This is only a resurrection as there is no mention of living believers being changed here. Those who will be resurrected at that time are those who will have been beheaded for their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and because they will not have worshiped the beast, his image nor will they have received his mark. These are the great tribulation saints and not the church.

      • That is a very clever story, but it is not out of the bible. Nowhere does it say Jesus returns with the souls of the dead. And if these souls already have bodies from their long stint in heaven, doing whatever dead people do in heaven, why do they need a new body? If they were doing fine in heaven with whatever they had, why the need for a change? Your theory is getting more and more complicated.
        And now you’ve made another change… the dead in Christ who die during the thribulation no longer go to heaven. Why not? Now you say they sleep until the resurrection? Or do they have their own little resurrection party apart from a bunch of other resurrections. Complicated.
        No. God keeps it simple, stupid. (KISS). You die, you sleep. You wake up at the first or second resurrection as if you had just then died.
        What, too simple? Too Jewish?
        The Catholic church created a lie with hell. Purgatory and limbo. At first the deceit was easy to sustain. But over the years it has been deconstructed piece by piece. Now, Catholics still buy the whole package while many other Christian denominations have thrown out many or all of the lies. I’m sure you don’t buy into everything that the Catholic church teaches about hell, so you know the original concept was full of lies, but you stop looking at a certain point even though the rest of the story is also a lie.
        History books confirm the true origins of hell, and I posted one of them. Any secular source will confirm it. Why would all those historians make up stuff just to try to take hell out of the New Testament? Yeah, its another Conspiracy Theory. I know.
        You know what this reminds me of? Ptolemy versus Copernicus. Whether the earth was the center of the universe or not. Ptolemy believed all the heavenly bodies were hung on giant rotating spheres that turned at different rates and even reversed direction in some cases. It was more complicated than any swiss watch or any other device that had ever been built.
        Then came Copernicus who explained how the planets including the earth all revolve around the sun in simple, unchanging orbits.
        HerEsY! They claimed. They said they would burn him at the stake if he ever mentioned it. He had to die before his work could be published. Turns out the simpler solution was correct. (KISS).
        So today we have people who are so invested in hell that they would like to throw all the dissenters into prison (off the internet

        • jim

          you do not seem to understand the difference between a spirit body and a physical body

        • Jim said:
          “Nowhere does it say Jesus returns with the souls of the dead.”

          I already provided the proof and you ignored and called it a clever story, so here is the proof again Jim:

          “Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. ”

          verse 14, “God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.”

          Did you read and understand that? When Jesus descends from heaven, he will bring with him the spirits of those who have died in him and their bodies will resurrect and their spirits will then be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Those who are still alive at that time will be changed in a moment into their glorified bodies and will be caught up with those will have previously been resurrected. Then, according to John 14:1-3, the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father’s house.

          This is all from scripture, but you ignore it because it doesn’t fit with the false teachings that you have believed in. And please don’t tell me that it is not in the Bible, because I just copied and pasted it directly from scripture. Those who are sleeping is referring to the death of the body. Those who will be coming with Jesus are their spirits who will have been in his presence from the time of death. When Jesus returns, their spirits and bodies are reunited, except that their bodies are now glorified, heavenly bodies. Those who are alive, since they are not dead, but still alive, are just changed into their glorified bodies right where they stand and are caught up with the rest of the group.

          • jim does not want the truth….you prove something, and then he repeats the same argument all over again

            • Marianne,

              Yes, I agree. It’s just the same with Beacon. They never address any of the points that are brought up directly as proof and then they say, “show us the scripture,” which is what was just given to them.

        • Jim said:
          “And now you’ve made another change… the dead in Christ who die during the thribulation no longer go to heaven. Why not? Now you say they sleep until the resurrection? Or do they have their own little resurrection party apart from a bunch of other resurrections. Complicated.”

          This is one of your problems Jim, you don’t pay attention to what you are reading. I never said that those who die in Christ during the tribulation no longer go to heaven. Those great tribulation saints who die during the great tribulation, their spirits go immediately to be in the presence of the Lord in heaven, while it is their bodies that are asleep in the dust of the earth. You need to keep in mind the difference between body and spirit. Those who die during the great tribulation are those who will have been beheaded and are seen being resurrected in Rev.20:4. This part of the first resurrection involves the great tribulation saints, which takes place after Christ returns to end the age. While the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place prior to the beginning of the tribulation period.

          Jim said:
          “No. God keeps it simple, stupid. (KISS). You die, you sleep. You wake up at the first or second resurrection as if you had just then died.”

          Unfortunately for you, scripture does not support body, soul and spirit as being asleep in the dust of the earth, only the body. You continue to ignore what Paul said regarding this issue, so here are the scriptures are again:

          ===================================

          “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

          ===================================

          Now, look at the scripture above carefully. Paul says that while we are in the body, we are away from the Lord and that he would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. Therefore, taking the above information into consideration, the only conclusion that one can come to is that, to be away from the body is in reference to his spirit departing and gong to be at home with the Lord.

          ====================================

          “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

          ====================================

          In the scripture above, Paul is torn between remaining in the body or departing and going to be with Christ. The reference to “depart” is speaking of his spirit departing from the body. At the time of death, the spirit would depart from the body and go to be in the presence of Christ, while the body would remain asleep in the dust of the earth.

          Death of the body = the departure of the spirit to be with the Lord, with the body being asleep in the dust of the earth.

          Considering these scriptures, this concept should be very easy to understand. And I would truly rather have you understand these scriptural principles, than to continue contending with you about them. If you would just open your eyes to what is being said in them you would get it.

  59. A lot of times, even in churches, the bad apples or loudest, pushiest people get all the attention. These people happen to be those who’ve already made up their minds how they’ll live and what they’ll believe and are only going to change if God scares the stupid out of them. The attention that pastors and others give to these people leaves those in need of ministry without. They think that they can convince such hardened people to their own view or to the truth, but such people just eat up their time and often feed their ego or desire to feel like they are ministering for God. I see this happening here with Jim Giordano, whose retardes beliefs on eternity and hell don’t merit one second of consideration and one word of response, who doesn’t strike me as ever having any such thing as a Holy Spirit living inside him and as heading straight for that place that he sure hopes doesn’t burn forever.

    In the early Church, no one sat around trying to coax and cajole others to repent and save themselves from that ‘hell’ that does burn forever. Jesus had no time for the stubborn and hard-hearted who He knew already had made up their minds and wouldn’t listen; He ministered only to those who would listen. Today, the ignorant and stubborn take up all our attention when we’re supposed to leave them alone to learn truth by experience since they wouldn’t learn it by wisdom and to minister or give attention to many who need it but tend to hide in the shadows because the self-assured loudmouths take up and waste everyone’s time and energy.

    This error of spending one’s labor on the rebellious and neglecting the willing is partially due to the common desire to be seen. The Pharisees did all their works to be seen, not because they were evil but because that’s human nature. Everyone would naturally prefer to be at a Christian gathering ministering to others than alone in a park where no one can see ministering to someone whom no one knows. Jesus led Philip away from the revival that he started to minister to one man, the Ethiopian eunuch, because He leaves the 99 for the 1 and said not to let the left hand know when the right hand ministers. This same need to be seen drives us to waste our energies on loud, pushy, obnoxious, and attention-stealing people whom we often prefer to ‘minister’ to over the more quiet people who really need our ministry more and will receive our ministry far before the ignorant proud oafs will. We have far too much time on our hands. But Moses prayed to God, “Teach us to number our days (to use time wisely), that we may gain a heart of wisdom.” (Ps. 90.) There’s no wisdom in debating with people like Jim who’ve already made up their minds as to what they will and won’t believe in the Bible.

    • good point

      some people here demand a lot of attention, and refuse to listen anyhow

      • If Jim wants to go to hell, literally, and find out that it takes an eternity before one’s soul is finally blotted out (ie. it’s never blotted out), no one should discourage him. If eternal punishment is not eternal, then God could not command all men everywhere to repent unless He was a narcissist who needs to scare people to choose Him. Rather, He’s trying to save people from the error of sin and pride. Anyone who has eternal life living in them focuses on what God focuses on which is rescuing people from eternal torment, not debating how long eternity is or the topography of hell.

        Who cares what the specifics are; the fact is that it’s a place to avoid at all and every cost. Therefore, Paul said, “Knowing the TERROR of the Lord, we PERSUADE (strongly urge, reason with in order to save from that wrath and terror) men.” Let Jim squint at his articles and argue with God; no one needs to spend their labor and time on a goat that’s insistent on traveling down into the flames. Prioritize; Jesus rejects the stiff-necked and rebellious, and so should His followers. “Leave them alone; they are blind guides” who drag people away from the Way and whose destiny IS the pit.

        • amen

        • Hey, I thought we were saved by grace, so if I confess my sins and believe that Jesus died for my sins I will receive eternal life. That is what the bible teaches.
          Where does it say that unless I believe in the pagan concept of hell or if I am wrong about any prophecies or if I can’t remember the names of all the prophets that I will be denied the kingdom of God?
          You are adding conditions to being saved that come from your mind, not the bible, just as hell does.
          So you can’t scare me with something that does not exist.
          And tespecially not with doctrine you just made up.

          • there may be a pagan concept of hell but there is also a biblical one, which you do not believe in either..it is not made up doctrine…. yours is..

            if you are saved by grace, you will not go there, but you will be held accountable for your behavior and attitudes on judgment day

          • Jim,

            You are correct in that, not knowing the concept of hell or wrong about prophecies and not being able to remember the names of the prophets, etc. So there are some things that are not detrimental to one’s eternal life. But, you have made the claim that, Paul’s writings were not of the Holy Spirit, that is not God-Breathed and therefore, his letters are not to be taken as being the word of God. And also that Paul was not a true apostle of the Lord. Therefore, where the other issues may not be eternal life threatening, your belief regarding Paul is! By your belief you come under the same condemnation as what Peter said below regarding those who were distorting Paul’s writings, which he recognized as “wisdom from God” and as “Scripture.”

            “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Pet.3:15)

            Therefore, those today who are distorting Paul’s writings and consider him as a false apostle, are also ignorant and unstable and do so to there own destruction. Another example of what would be detrimental to one’s salvation and eternal life, would be those who include their own works as a requirement for salvation. By doing so, they are not truly trusting in Christ and that because they have a list of other works as requirements for salvation and by which they are saying that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient.

        • Amen

    • The original church was all a bunch of Jews who did not nor do they still believe in hell. The apostles didn’t carry around a copy of the New Testament with them, it wasn’t written down and created till much later. Then it was edited by the Catholic church who added hell to the mix. This is written in history books. I used to be catholic and I bought the whole package but as I studied the bible (which the church never used and I never owned) I came to realize that much of what I believed was not true. I kept an open mind and eventually came out of that apostasy and learned the real truth. You will learn it eventually as well. But unlike many here, I don’t think there will be eternal punishment just for being wrong.
      I’ll bet there are not two people on this site that believe all the same exact thing. I wonder how many think that all of those who don’t entirely agree with them will end up in hell. So then maybe everyone is doomed since none of us are perfect in our knowledge.
      You will have to stick with what you believe and see if you are in that small remnant that is the true bride of Christ.
      Have you shed Babylon from your life?

      • jim

        if you want to know what the early jewish church believed, you have to read the NEW testament

      • I am Jewish and I believe there is a hell so that leaves me out? But also the fact that everyone thinks all Jews are waiting for the first coming of Christ is not true at all, I am waiting for the second coming because I know he was here before, but he will come back again. The catholic church is on a major down fall, it will end up desolate and ruined before the end comes. Everyone is not doomed if they believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior and even though a lot of people don’t have that knowledge does not necessarily mean that you will automatically go to hell. I have an Idea having and Idea about God won’t really get you killed but religions is what people die for and God hates that we use her/his name to do wars and fights and all the other stuff that gets carried out in his name, and quiet frankly she/he is really tired of it and is about to come down on us. I got a warning last night it’s almost here!

        • emily

          there is a special provision in scripture for those who have never had the knowledge of the gospel. god will judge their lives as they have lived them.

          i agree about the catholic church

          what did god tell you last night?

          • I saw Visions of tanks and armed men but these men weren’t Americans they were Russians and they were going door to door trying to find the Christians to take them away to death camps that they have been setting up for many years. They got to our door and something weird happened they turned away! Like someone was protecting our home, my Family and I are Jewish and Christian so God must have saved us!

            • emily

              that is consistent with what I believe.

              but I have had dreams where I ended up in FEMA death camp.

              however, when I got there I did not get hurt as long as the dream continued….not sure

              I think I have to go there to minister to people who are going to die.

              in the meantime, I plead the blood of jesus over me and my family every night to protect from such a death

              the guards in the camps were russians, which agrees with what you saw.

              https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/?s=dream

              let us pray we all stay safe that belong to the Lord

              • I too in another vision was taken away to a death camp but in this dream I was married, I’m not even married yet so it must have been a future vision and like you said it was FEMA that took all of us…. The reason why was because there was a super huge thing that happened and FEMA was on the scene ready to “aid” the people , yeah more like send them to death camps it was crazy. My husband and I were separated, they let him go Because he claimed to be Russian and even talked in their language and he has been studying the language for so many years now and he also looks Russian, but A month after I got to the Camp I was released and I was all because of my Husband. He Became and Captain or someone who is higher and demanded my release! It was crazy!

                • a big russinan guard told me in the dream:

                  I wanted you, but God told me I could not have you, because you belong to Him…

                  I hope all believers hear these same words..

                  the guards in another dream were showing me favor and giving me cookies

  60. WOW! I always heard it takes one to call one. Which one of you can Say – “Thus saith the Lord” you are right.

    Matt. 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were “”astonished at his doctrine””:
    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Mark 3: 5 And when HE had looked round about on them with anger, being “grieved for the hardness of their hearts”, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
    MARK 3:6- And the “Pharisees went forth”, and “straightway took counsel with the Herodians against HIM”, how they “”might destroy him””.

    I do not see no “astonishment” in your average church doctrines.
    Their message is pretty much bland and like most others. Does not affect anyone anymore just as Catholicism is the greatest Christian church they say but it still so messed up and wrong. People are blind to it.

    Jesus Was the Word and “HIS OWN CHURCH’ Killed HIM over it. They had to “”join in mind”” to Rome in their day. Israel was lost in her sin. She is called a whore in the Bible.

    The “Church’s came together” so they could “destroy HIM.”
    Its the same today. By their multitudes of error’s making the Word of God of none affect.

    Sounds a lot like Catholicism and Protestants in our day. And becoming one Group.

    Its like the Giant that always picks on the little guy. Jesus was the King in His day yet the church thought him a little guy in His day. A fraud. A trouble maker.

    But Jesus knew what HE was talking about. And the Average church laymen don’t have a clue to the mysteries that are just laying open in the Word to see. Because of blindness of the GREAT church’s so called.

    Jim got it right their is no “eternal burning for a sinner”. Its the 2nd. DEATH. I have wrote in plenty of reasons with Scriptures to prove. But it goes on death ears.

    What does Jesus give us when we COME TO HIM and HE LIVES IN US and we LOVE HIM. And become His Sons and Daughters. We call that a NEW CREATION. Which Jesus Said it was. Why will you “PERISH” come to me and I will give you “ETERNAL” Life.
    Most all on this post mostly want to take things literal. So why can you not take so many Scriptures where Jesus offered the sinners to COME TO HIM to have Eternal life. They must no have eternal life if Jesus said He is the only one that can give you ETERNAL LIFE. Or you will Perish and or be destroyed and vanished away forever.

    Now go ahead and change it all around so it will match your “”Catholicism Doctrines of devils”. And all the Assembly of Gods, and Baptists, and denominations everywhere on and on. ghezzzzzz – they are the ones that will get the “wake up call” not knowing they were “”all asleep”” at the wheel. When the Mysteries become open to us at the Opening of the Seals. Etc etc.

    Palisade

    • Beacon,

      Was there a point somewhere in all the miscellaneous scriptures that you posted above, that have nothing to do with any specific topic?

      Beacon said:
      “Jesus Was the Word and “HIS OWN CHURCH’ Killed HIM over it.”

      Beacon, the church did not kill Jesus. The Jewish leaders handed him over to the Gentiles to be killed. The church, the body of Christ had nothing to do with handing Jesus over to be crucified.

      Beacon said:
      “Jim got it right their is no “eternal burning for a sinner”. Its the 2nd. DEATH. I have wrote in plenty of reasons with Scriptures to prove. But it goes on death ears. ”

      It goes on deaf ears because your proof is not proof at all, but false teaching. The word of God is very clear that there is going to be eternal punishment in the lake of fire. But the problem is that, when you or Jim read that information you replace it with what you’ve been taught. You ignore all of the scriptures that proclaim this truth. Using the scripture below, how can you say that there is not eternal burning and that people are destroyed immediately? Give a reason for the following:

      ======================================

      “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

      ======================================

      In verse 11, it states that the smoke of their torment will rise up for ever and ever and they will have no rest day or night.

      In the scripture above, in order for the smoke of their burning to rise up forever and ever, there would have to be an existing body in flame in order to experience the torment. The verse above can’t be true if when people are thrown in they are just completely burnt up, annihilated. Also, it states that those in the lake of fire will have no rest from the torment in flame either day or night. The words translated “no rest” means that there will be no cessation, no intermission from the torment in flame, which would demonstrate that a person would have to be existing in order to experience the torment.

      Now, you said that you wrote plenty of reasons with scriptures to prove it, but it is you who has the deaf ears. Now, without writing a book or going off topic, please explain to us why you don’t understand the meaning of the following words:

      * Their torment will rise up forever and ever

      * They will have no rest day or night

      The word “torment” means “tortuous; subjective agony” which requires a person to be conscious and aware in order to experience it. For you cannot torment someone who is burnt up and doesn’t exist. Please give an answer to these questions and please keep it short and to the point. How do you explain these?

      • good point.

        forever torment means forever.

      • As for those with the mark of the beast, Revelation describes them DURING the tribulation, while they are still alive. It does not say if they take the mark they will instantly die and go to hell. It is describing the torment of the 7 last plagues. It is not literal.
        Torment does not produce smoke, and if it were real smoke it could not continue to ascend forever. That would mean the smoke reached escape velocity and would shoot into outer space for zillions of miles for eternity. Clearly these verses can’t be taken literally.
        Visions are like parables… they can’t be taken literally but must be understood by other means.
        Funny how the word torment means what it says but Destruction means something else – something I’ve never heard before. And how do you know when a person dies only the body sleeps. A dead body sleeps? Really? Good thing your not a cop or an undertaker or you would always expect a dead person might wake up any second. Dead means dead. Perish means perish, destroy means destroy.
        You have to stop redefine common words wherever you find them in the bible because you find it necessary to make a point.
        Where in the bible did it ever say that someone died and went to heaven? When Lazarus died Jesus said he fell asleep. Why didn’t He say he has died and his soul has ascended to My father? And why when he awoke, why didn’t he reveal that he was just in heaven and how wonderful it was? Where is all the heaven references in real-time speech and not just a single parable?
        If heaven and hell were real we would expect sermons about it all over the bible. Old Testament and New. I don’t believe for a second that God would make such a huge change in theology after 4000 years and not fill the New Testament with all sorts of sermons on how and why these changes were made. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. If sleep was good enough for the Jew it is good enough for everyone. And this include changing the commandments or throwing them out completely, which some Christians believe. And that will come back to bite them when they find out that the mark of the beast is Sunday worship.
        Oh pardon me, did you think it will be a chip?

        • Jim said:
          “Torment does not produce smoke, and if it were real smoke it could not continue to ascend forever. That would mean the smoke reached escape velocity and would shoot into outer space for zillions of miles for eternity. Clearly these verses can’t be taken literally.
          Visions are like parables… they can’t be taken literally but must be understood by other means.”

          It means exactly that Jim. No need to symbolize the torment. When the resurrection of the unrighteous dead takes place at the end thousand years, they receive a resurrected body that will endure their eternal punishment in the lake of fire. Therefore while in the flame, the body will not be able to be destroyed, but it will continue to exist in the flame experiencing eternal torment. Why is that you run to another interpretation instead of believing in the one that is right in front of you? What do you run after some other meaning instead of the one that is presented in scripture. What is so hard about believe that God can create bodies that can endure the flame without being destroyed. For example, consider the new fire resistant material that they have come up with, which when fire is applied it just singes the material, but it is not burnt up. All things are possible with God and therefore, it is not great thing for him to give the wicked bodies that can endure the lake of fire, but not be destroyed.

          Jim said:
          “Funny how the word torment means what it says but Destruction means something else – something I’ve never heard before.”

          Again, the word “Destruction” is derived by comparing other scriptures. If you have people being torment, having [no rest day or night] then, based on those other words, we can come to an understanding of what destruction means. You are thinking in terms of the English word for destruction, which is complete annihilation or obliteration. But that is not what scripture bares out. As Ii have continued to point out, destruction here regarding those in the lake of fire is defined as complete ruin of body, soul and spirit while existing.

          Jim said:
          “Where in the bible did it ever say that someone died and went to heaven? ”

          Right here Jim:

          ============================
          “Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. For we live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

          “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
          ===========================

          Both scriptures above demonstrate that when the soul/spirit departs from the body, it immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. When the event of the resurrection and catching away takes place, then those who will have died in Christ, their bodies will be resurrected and their spirits will be reunited with their now resurrected bodies. Consider the following:

          ==============================
          “When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”

          They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.
          =============================

          In the scripture above, notice that after Jesus takes the little girl by the hand and says, “my child, get up!” is states that her spirit returned to her body. This would be in line with what Paul described, that at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and therefore, in reference to sleep, it is the body that is in view and not the spirit/soul. The spirit/soul departs from the body and goes somewhere else. In the case of the believer, the spirit/soul departs the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. In the case of the unrighteous, their spirit/soul departs the body and goes into Hades.

          Jim said:
          “If heaven and hell were real we would expect sermons about it all over the bible”

          There are Jim, you’re just paying attention or are circumventing the scripture. I myself make hell known when the subject comes up. Whenever I talk about the word of God, it includes the consequences of sin in the lake of fire and information on Hades which is a temporary place of punishment and I also tell them about having faith in the shed blood of Christ which will save them from being condemned and punished in the lake of fire.

          Destruction is the complete, eternal, ruin of body, soul and spirit, while existing and consciousness in the lake of fire.

          • dmcal

            jim thinks his unbelief and “logic” trumps scripture

            • No, I said an open mind and simple logic can help to understand scripture. If you study two interpretations and one has many holes and discrepancies in it and it becomes necessary to come up with all sorts of fixes and patches to keep it afloat I will always go with the simplest most logical explanation.
              The bible is not a CSI story with all sorts of complicated plot twists. When I read that the dead sleep until the resurrection, and John says that no man hath ascended into heaven, that is good enough for me. Adding spirit beings or ghosts and heaven and hell only confuses what the bible says clearly.
              My mind works differently from many here. I don’t jump lightly into conspiracy theories just because they seem to prove my bible prophecy interpretation. And if an interpretation seems too far-fetched to ever really happen, I tend to discard it. You will never understand that if you think with your heart instead of your brain.
              As for being an “unbeliever” that term can be applied to you as well. We all believe in something. What I believe may be different from what you believe so how does that make me an unbeliever? I believe everything I read in the bible. I don’t believe in lies.
              You on the other hand tend to believe in many lies, you just don’t realize it. And when I refuse to believe these lies (You Tube idiots) you call me a scoffer and an unbeliever. In these cases you are correct, I am an unbeliever.
              But not when it comes to the bible.

              • you just described your own “logical analysis.”

                you have many holes and discrepancies.

                and unbelief is not proof

              • Jim said:
                “No, I said an open mind and simple logic can help to understand scripture.”

                So, how come you are not following your open mind and simple logic approach? I’ll use the same example I’ve been using. You continue to proclaim that the reference to a person who is asleep refers to the body, soul and spirit, that is, that person is not aware or conscious on any level. Yet, I have presented scripture after scripture which reveals the conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death. If you were using simple logic, you would weigh the scriptures regarding sleep against those scriptures that demonstrate those who have died as being conscious and aware. But instead, you push aside or circumvent the scriptures of the latter and opt for the former. That is not logical. Logic dictates that if you have the term “sleep” for those who have died and yet in other scriptures we see those who have died and their soul/spirits are conscious and aware, then the logical answer is that sleep doesn’t include the soul/spirit and that because we are seeing two different scenarios. Instead what you do, is you distort or attempt to explain away the scriptures that reveal conscious awareness of the soul/spirit after death.

                You ignore the same simple logic regarding punishment being on-going, conscious, eternal punishment in the lake of fire by ignoring all the words of the text that support this. The bottom line is that, you’re not using that open mind, simple logic that you claim.

                • Sorry but you don’t understand how logic works. Something that seems logical to one person may not fit the scientific definition of logic.
                  Most people don’t realize it but logic is a science. There are rules that must be followed. Before I studied digital logic for digital circuit design I had to take a class on logic. There are certain rules in logic and they don’t include assumptions.
                  You read the word sleep and although the definition is a given, you read a parable, misinterpret it, buy into a concept that was introduced into the early church and still there today, so you assume that the word sleep must mean something else, so rather than looking for the proper interpretation of the other verses, you redefine a word that Jews have understood for 6000 years and say they read it wrong – in order to now be correct, the word sleep must now men something else. So you come up with a story that fits your pre-judged conclusions.
                  You see, that is not permitted in true logic. True logic asks that you determine what the opposing verses actually mean and it turns out that for every “proof” of hell, the proofs can be simply explained without completely overturning what was in common belief for 4000 years.
                  Logic dictates that if Jesus meant that sleep was for the body only he would have mentioned that the spirit part is jusged and goes either to heaven of hell immediately and he would have explained that people are not resurrected, only their bodies and that he will have their spirits in his pockets when he returns, or something to that effect.
                  The same is true for the pre-trib rapture. There are all sorts of “proof” verses that are quoted every week by Jack Van Impe and others, yet when I read those verses in context they all occur at the second and only coming of Jesus. They are lies and false interpretations.
                  The same is true for all the verses that “prove” the commandments were nailed to the cross with Christ. More lies and misinterpretations.
                  So hell is pretty much the same as I have discovered. I’m sticking with the old (Jewish) interpretation. I see no reason to change it.
                  Heck, one of you (John) says he can prove Nibiru is real and can find “references” all throughout the bible. We all know that the bible is just vague enough to prove just about anything you can imagine… including a 7-yera tribulation, a New World Order, One-World Government, Antichrist dictator and a chip in everyone’s hand. People swear by this interpretation. Some have proven Obama is mentioned as the Antichrist. Yeah, right.
                  So, if you’re such a fan of Plato and his concept of the immortal soul, then by all means keep it in your theology.
                  I have already done the logic, properly. I won’t be fooled by your attempts to fine tune the dictionary to prove a pagan practice.

                  • you logic is flawed.

                    unless you see it, it does not exist

                    and when someone shows you,

                    you ignore it and refuse to believe it

                    same with jewish thought

                    you never read the links I gave it.

                    there is a consciousness, to them, after death

                    so there goes your jewish support

                    they only believe the body dies, not the soul

              • Jim said:
                “As for being an “unbeliever” that term can be applied to you as well. We all believe in something. What I believe may be different from what you believe so how does that make me an unbeliever? I believe everything I read in the bible. I don’t believe in lies.”

                “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

                There be gospels many and Lord’s many, but there is only one true gospel and one true Lord and by your teaching you are believing in another gospel and another Lord. There is only one truth, not many.

    • Palisade,
      Thanks for having my back.
      Most people don’t realize that Babylon which will be destroyed before the Second Coming, represents all the pagan ideas and practices in not just the harlot Catholic church but in many of its daughter protestant churches as well.
      The concept of an eternal soul and going to heaven or hell when you die came from Plato in 300BC. It is all pagan.
      Sunday worship, Christmas and Easter all from the pagan Roman religion.
      All these and much more will be stripped from the church before it can marry the Lord. What will be left will be the true church, similar to the church at Philadelphia. And guess what, that church will look quite Jewish to most of us. In fact, when Jesus left us His church was all Jewish. It had none of these pagan additions in it. But Satan worked his magic and over the last 2000 years he has contaminated 99% of Christianity so only a small remnant of the true church survives.
      But most people think the Babylon that will be destroyed is Islam simply because the ruins of the city of Babylon are located in what is now a Muslim country. This gives them comfort and makes them feel safe from the wrath of God, but they are in for a shock.
      God only punishes His own people for going astray, not other religions for being wrong. This will be the great lesson of the tribulation.
      Learn it now and avoid pain and suffering later.

      • Jim with all do respect…… ANYONE that does not accept the Lord Jesus Christ will be punished…. Everyone will be judged at the white thrown judgement.

        • He’s a troll. Or a goat. He’s wasting everyone’s time on purpose. Agents of satan from various fields are trained to do that in Christian churches, groups, fellowships, ministries, online forums, etc. They disturb the peace and sidetrack people with unnecessary doctrines or arguments. Paul said that debates about Jewish ancestry and other needless things don’t lead to godliness but actually to more and more ungodliness. In the OT, God said that even if a prophet prophesied correctly but his word led God’s people to stray from Him, that prophet was false. How does that apply in the practical today? Like this: if someone debates or presents doctrines they got from the Bible (prophesying/speaking correctly) but what they say doesn’t lead people to be godly but rather to argue and debate and be distracted from the things on God’s heart, that person is not born again and therefore not being led by the Spirit.

          As for agents of satan, we all would like to think we would never meet one in our lifetimes; but any of us who has been in a medium to large church, a tiny evangelical church for up to ten years, any charismatic church has already met and probably shaken hands with agents of satan. Many of them head worship or/and the intercessor ministry and are often found leading home groups or just in them and in other important church functions. They delight, and are assigned, to infiltrate Christian circles and to deceive Christians into thinking they are Christians themselves (they really take great delight in making Christians believe they are good people). You can’t discern them but by revelation, because they rarely ever look evil and are trained to talk like Christians and always act nice (their real character will only come out around Christians if the Lord’s sudden presence forces it to the fore or if someone presses them on an issue that is close to God’s heart… but who examines anyone these days to see if they’re in the faith). These agents are sent from different quarters, but most of them hail from 3 areas: satanist cults (more focused on infiltrating, bringing spiritual power in a church to an abrupt halt, and monitoring everything in church– who’s who and how far in God they go, etc.; these include the secret society-Illuminati arm of satanism which is throughout the charismatic churches), witch covens (these focus on cursing the churches and coming against the church ministries on the spirit plane and will especially attack the prayer, the deliverance, and the prophetic ministries), and the Catholic Church or Vatican (these are tied to the illuminati-satanic connection and focus on and target/attack church leadership, church doctrine and overall church government or seek to control how the church is run and to insert their own doctrines and beliefs). While it’s not popular to ‘judge’ people, someone has to do it, otherwise, wolves are allowed to come and go among the sheep without any fear. I’d say that Jim Giordano fits at least one of these types of people. People normally don’t repeat the same thing in spite of new information… unless perhaps that person is employing a hidden agenda. When the genuine prophetic and especially apostolic ministries return to the churches, these wolves who can rarely be exposed without revelation will be uncovered in the least expected places among Christians (they will be pastors, church ministers, trusted church members, big givers, the nicest members, close friends of church members, spouses, parents, baby-sitters, camp counselors, etc.), and there will be no small shaking and distress among Christians when this happens. It’s good to know that this happens now and to learn to discern people and the driving forces behind their words/doctrines, actions, and beliefs.

  61. In the end it doesn’t matter how closed minded people demand being…..it is what it is…..HIS word plainly states JESUS CHRIST in the ONLY way to the Father….and to Heaven!! Hell is in the Bible…..IN PLAIN TEXT!!! Meaning there is nothing to try to figure out. If some are determined NOT to heed to HIS word….they’re are just fooling themselves!! Why would any person want to take the chance?????? Because I promise you….it doesn’t matter what “WE THINK” GOD is GOD…yesterday,today,and tomorrow!!! And what HE says goes….I rather believe in hell, fear it,,,,die and find out there is not one,,,,,rather to live unfearful and not believing in it to die and find out there is!!! MY GOODNESS that is just pure FOOLISHNESS!!

  62. Amen

  63. Jim Giordano, please don’t let anyone stop you. You’re free to believe what you believe. In everything though, just be sure to have fun. Ciao.

  64. To all
    The White throne Judgment is NOW going on. God will Judge by HIS WORD. And Nothing else. If you die today. Your Soul = Nature= Character will tell on you. That is all God has to know about you.
    When you take away Eternal burning HELL. Most so called Christians would quit being Christians – have you ever thought of that one.
    Because that is all they are going to church for is “Fire Insurance”. That will not save you. Proven to themselves they did not Love God in the first place. It was all about fear. I know I was raised in it. I could never understand how a Loving God could by foreknowledge put some one into a “eternal burning lake of fire. Then I heard the truth about. Mankind is the one that puts himself in that position. Yet God knows it when the seed was born.
    I have showed you people the Scriptures for years and you just pass them by.
    You accuse me getting off the message. But that is because you cannot understand all Doctrines DOVE TAIL together that is how we know we got a Right Interpretation. = Thus saith the Lord –
    Hell, the Devil, Satan, Death, Evil, Serpent, Beastly men, Cain, Mark, and all enemies of God. “””If we studied them all you could get a “real Revelation”of truth.””” But you all are not that interested to know or want to do it on your own. Yes YOU have to STUDY it yourself. Most do not study and just listen to their favorite guy that tickles their ear. Knowledge without Revelation= Means your faith is dead.
    If you want to know about death, Hell, and the grave. Then study on the ones above I mentions. You might get the shock of your life. But you will not do it. You would rather listen to somebody that believes it like you do.
    Below is just some simple scriptures that Jesus said. In a few minutes you can find the answer if you wanted to. But you are to lazy I guess.
    Matt. 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will “”burn up the chaff”” with “”unquenchable fire””.
    Burn – 2618 from 2545;
    — burn — burn up — burn utterly — to burn up, consume by fire
    Burn – 2545; burn — burn up — burn utterly — to burn up, consume by fire
    If my English is right. The evil are consumed away utterly gone.
    Now “unquenchable fire”
    “”762″” asbestos {as’-bes-tos} from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of “”4570″”;
    AV — unquenchable — never shall be quenched – unquenched, unquenchable
    #1 means Alpha – yea the only Eternal burning fire their is. And It can be in the Negative. As well as the Positive.
    The Chaff is burnt and gone into the wind forever and ever. But the Wheat goes into His Barn. = Eternal life. One Positive One Negative.
    Now from the same word “unquenchable is 4570” primary verb; to — quench — go out – to extinguish,
    1a) of fire or things on fire: to be quenched, to go out
    1b) metaph. to quench i.e. to suppress, stifle: divine influence
    Bottom line – Jesus said “burn up the chaff” that is a literal meaning.
    When your fire goes out. You a “”walking dead man”” and Serpent in the grass – just LIKE Jesus said the Jews were. DEAD and they die TWO times. Their “flesh man #1”. and their Soul man #2. dies— Hello.
    Matt. 3:10 And now also the “”axe is laid unto the root of the trees””: therefore “”every tree”” which bringeth not forth “”good fruit”” is “”hewn down,”” and “”cast into the fire””.
    1. How about you all doing a little study on this verse subject just by yourself. Instead of you favorite Theologian telling you.
    Matt. 13: 40 As therefore the “”tares”” are gathered and “”burned in the fire;”” so shall it be in the end of this world.
    Where does it say burned in the fire for eternity. Jesus did not say that.
    2618 katakaio and 2545; Same as above.
    Also 2215 – tares –
    Even farmers who in this country generally weed their fields, do not attempt to separate the one from the other. The grains of the Lolium temulentum, if eaten, produce convulsions, and even death. The are looks just like the wheat. Its so close only God knows who going to get “””burned up””= Death
    Matt. 13:42- And shall cast them into a “furnace of fire”: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
    1. Death, Hell, and the Grave is all one word – Death.
    a. the first 4 Seals is about mankind and Death, Hell, and the Grave –
    2. Rev. 21:8 Means part – A time period –
    3. Word Eternal is set apart from Time periods – forever and forever is a time period. It will have an end at some time. Everlasting is
    4. Destruction means – 622 apollumi from 575 and the base of 3639;
    — perish (33) — destroy (26) — lose (22) — be lost (5)
    1) to destroy, i.e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an “end to ruin”, render useless, “”to kill””, “”to declare that one must be put to death””, to devote or give over to “”””eternal misery””””
    Eternal misery – Yes these Natural Brute Beast – and anti-christians were always eternally lost. Cain, Esau, Nimrod and hundreds mentioned in the bible. Jesus spoke more on Hell =death – than any person in the Bible.
    2) to destroy i.e. to lose
    As for as the brimstone and fire – that was the punishment of death for Israel being the whore and uniting with Rome as I said before. Which is an absolute positive. The Whore was Israel. The Beast was Rome and they united and killed Christians – Then God set a FIERY JUDGMENT against the Whole nation of Israel. Yea they were slaughtered and killed by fire, and Brimstone and also starvation. Just like HELL is Gehenna. Israel died in their Gehenna. IN the Holiest City in the whole world. Because they loved Idolatry more than their own God. That was their death. And they are still dead. They rotted, eat their own babies, starved to death, and fire balls cast into them and that was the Gehenna. Many Nations have perished just like that. Its called WAR and it’s Hell on earth while you are alive. Satan has got you bound and in complete darkness if you do not come to Christ.
    Rev. 21: 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore monger’s, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have “”their part”” in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the “”second death””.
    If the 2nd. Death don’t mean you die twice. We had better learn are math.
    1 plus 1 = 2
    2. A real Christian only dies ONCE –
    3. Jesus is the Resurrection. Jesus is the Kingdom of God and you all do not believe that. True Christians will not die 2 deaths.
    4. When my body dies My soul which is the REAL man that lives in me. Will be with Christ immediately. Like I said before. The White throne judgment is the WORD OF GOD – Jesus Christ in Revelation 1. That is your White throne judgment. Yea and you will see HE has “”eyes of fire”” etc.
    Palisade – Lord bless you all

    • The white thrown judgement is the final judgement. The book of Revelation states that clearly.

    • Beacon said:
      “The White throne Judgment is NOW going on”

      Beacon, why do you continually take events out of their chronological order? Andrea is correct, in the book of Revelation, the GWTJ is shown to take place at the end of the thousand years. This fact is very clear, as scripture states that Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire, then Satan is bound at the beginning of the thousand years and then he is let out for short time at the end. In Rev.20:7 the end of the thousand years is in view as demonstrated by the following words:

      “When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison”

      When he is let out, he then goes and deceives the nations in the four corners of the earth and they march across the earth and surround Jerusalem and God destroys them by sending fire down from heaven and devours them. Immediately after that, Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into a thousand years earlier. After that, we see the unrighteous dead being resurrect and their spirits being let out of Hades and the books being opened for judgment. Notice that when this GWTJ takes place it says the following:

      “I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened.”

      If you are paying attention to the scripture, it states that the great and small of the dead are standing before the throne. Therefore, the GWTJ cannot currently be going on, for there will be a large group standing before the thrown in heaven and these will be those who will be the unrighteous from all of history. You need to pay attention to the chronology of scripture and not just interpret prophecy as being fulfilled wherever you want to place it.

    • Beacon said:
      “When you take away Eternal burning HELL. Most so called Christians would quit being Christians – have you ever thought of that one.
      Because that is all they are going to church for is “Fire Insurance”.

      You cannot remove eternal life from eternal punishment, as they are at the heart of why Christ came. All sin must be accounted for and therefore, for each individual either Christ was held accountable for their sin or the individual will be held accountable for their own sin. The wrath that we deserve was placed on him and so the wrath that was due as a result of our sins was satisfied by Jesus. For those who believe, the wrath of God no longer rests on them. I don’t care about what you have to say about Christian’s going to church for fire insurance, because Jesus himself said:

      “Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”

      Jesus came here to keep us from the result of our sins which is judgment, condemnation and eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. Once we come to Christ, then it is not just a matter of salvation from the second death, but our love grows for God because of his love for us and what he did for us. We were at enmity with God and Jesus reconciled us to him by paying the penalty for our sins on our behalf.

      You are a very confused person and you need to find the true God, because what you have is another gospel and another lord.

    • Beacon said:
      “If you want to know about death, Hell, and the grave. Then study on the ones above I mentions. You might get the shock of your life”

      I gave you the scriptures in a previous post that show eternal, unending, conscious punishment in the lake of fire and you did not answer, but wrote this long book, which I asked you to please not do. You ignored my request and I’m guessing you did so, because you have no defense for it. So here is the request again:

      ====================================

      Now, you said that you wrote plenty of reasons with scriptures to prove it, but it is you who has the deaf ears. Now, without writing a book or going off topic, please explain to us why you don’t understand the meaning of the following words:

      * Their torment will rise up forever and ever

      * They will have no rest day or night

      The word “torment” means “tortuous; subjective agony” which requires a person to be conscious and aware in order to experience it. For you cannot torment someone who is burnt up and doesn’t exist. Please give an answer to these context of words followed by the asterisk above and please keep it short and to the point. How do you explain these?

      To every who is reading this, Marianne, Andrea, Denise, etc., I am cornering Beacon to give answer regarding the above. Keep track and see if he avoids it or gives an answer. The only answer that he can give is where he distorts or circumvents the words above, otherwise the only other answer is to agree with the actual definition of the words, torment, rise up, forever and ever, no rest day or night. These words are pretty self explanatory. But let’s keep track and see if what he does to get out of it. That is, what circumvention or distortion. Anyone who can claim that we are currently living in the thousand year period or that the GWTJ is currently going on, knows nothing about the coming wrath and how God is going to end the age. It should be interesting to see how he attempts to distort the scripture above. We’re waiting Beacon. Please keep it short! No books!

    • Beacon said:
      “Matt. 13: 40 As therefore the “”tares”” are gathered and “”burned in the fire;”” so shall it be in the end of this world.
      Where does it say burned in the fire for eternity. Jesus did not say that.”

      Below is the answer to your question as to where it is said that they are burned in the fire for eternity:

      “They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name

      See where it says, “the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever and they will have no rest day or night? A person can’t experience torment rising up for ever and ever unless the person is existing, conscious and aware. Now, I have answered your question. And here is another scripture to prove eternal, unending punishment:

      “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

      In the verse above, the word “eternal” is used to describe the state of both the righteous and the unrighteous and therefore, they must have the same meaning. To be clear, since we know that eternal life means conscious, unending life, then eternal punishment would have to mean conscious, unending punishment. That being said, you can’t have the righteous having eternal life to mean unending, conscious life and then have eternal punishment mean nonexistence and complete annihilation. They have to be the antithesis of each other and that because the same word is being used. If you attempt to tell me that eternal punishment means that the unrighteous are immediately destroyed, then eternal life would also have to be temporary. It has to be the same for both sides whichever way you slice it. If eternal life is conscious, unending life, then eternal punishment has to be conscious, unending punishment.

    • Beacon said:
      “Like I said before. The White throne judgment is the WORD OF GOD – Jesus Christ in Revelation ”

      Scripture says:
      “Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.”

      As you can see Beacon, it is a real gathering of the unrighteous dead, which takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, who will be standing before a literal great white throne and not an imaginary one. Notice that the dead, great and small will be standing before the throne and all at the same time. Now, I have shown you the truth of what the GWTJ is using scripture, now please show me the scripture that says that the great white throne judgment is the word of God. And good luck with that, because there is no where in scripture that states this.

      Now, will you answer any of these post directly, or will you just do what you always do and list a bunch of unrelated scriptures and ramble on, writing a book?

      • Explain to me what happens to “Death” and “hell” when they are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death?
        Do they die or do you have a different definition to the word “Death”?
        I there are billions suffering in hell, what happens to all these eternal sufferers when they go into the Lake of Fire?
        And why is death throw into the Lake of Fire? Will death burn and suffer forever?
        You see, you can’t take this verse literally. It sounds stupid in fact.
        It only makes sense as a metaphor.
        Also, for Marianne,
        You say the whole sleep thing was Old Testament, but after Jesus died the wicked go to hell and the saints go to heaven. So, did the Old Testament Jews who were sleeping just wake up in 31AD to find themselves judged to either heaven or hell?
        And what about all the Jews that lived after Jesus but didn’t hear or believe the word. Are they all burning in hell for all these years? I thought God loved the Jews. Why torture them for what was not their fault (to be born Jewish). Why throw them in hell with all the Hindu, Muslims and Buddhists who really deserve it?
        None of this sounds like the God I worship. Of course these details are not in the bible. The only place I can get the information is here on the internet.
        So please, fill me in.

        • Jim said:
          “Explain to me what happens to “Death” and “hell” when they are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death?”

          The beast, false prophet, Satan, the fallen angels, death and Hades, go into eternal punishment in the Lake of fire. It is a place that is specifically for punishment that was created for Satan and his angels (Mt.25:41)

          Jim said:
          “So, did the Old Testament Jews who were sleeping just wake up in 31AD to find themselves judged to either heaven or hell?”

          According to event of Lazarus and the rich man, “the spirits” of the OT saints were conscious and aware just like the rich man and Lazarus were. Therefore, they did not just wake up, their spirits were already conscious and aware. It was their bodies that were asleep in the dust of the earth, not their spirits.

          Jim said:
          “And what about all the Jews that lived after Jesus but didn’t hear or believe the word. Are they all burning in hell for all these years? I thought God loved the Jews.”

          The following is what Jesus said to the Pharisees and Jewish leaders:

          “But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

          Anyone, Jew or Gentile who heard the gospel and did not believe, when they died, they would die in their sins and their spirit would be taken to Hades. God does love the Jews and he sent Jesus who preached the truth to them, but they would not believe in him. God is definitely a merciful and loving God. But, he is also a God of justice and righteousness. He has provided a specific way to obtain salvation and eternal life for both Jew and Gentile, which is by grace through faith alone. If anyone doesn’t seek to obtain salvation through faith, but by some other way, then they cannot be reconciled to God and that because, scripture states that without faith it is impossible to please God. Anyone who tries to obtain it by their own efforts will not enter into the kingdom of God and that because salvation is not a reward for the good works that we do, but is a free gift and so salvation is not something that we can earn.

          Abraham is our example. He believed God when he said, I will visit you this time next year and you will have a son. Abraham, though he was 100 years old and Sarah was old and beyond having children, believed in God’s promise and it was credited to him as righteousness. We who are having the same faith, that is, trusting in Christ as the One who paid the penalty for our sins, then we too are credited with righteousness.

          Jim said:
          “Why torture them for what was not their fault (to be born Jewish). Why throw them in hell with all the Hindu, Muslims and Buddhists who really deserve it?”

          Jim, everyone who comes into the world is deserving of punishment and that because of sin. No one is entitled to salvation, for it is a free gift given by God. He could have let everyone perish if he wanted to, for everyone is guilty of sin and no one is entitled to salvation. But God, in his love and his mercy, saved some throughout all of history. As far as Hindu, Muslims and Buddhists, etc., scripture states that there will be people saved from every nation, tribe, people and language. He even has people who are found within Mystery Babylon who he is, and will be calling out of her, Saying, “Come out of her my people so that you will not partake in her plagues. For her sins are piled up to heaven and God has remembered her crimes.” So, he even has those who belong to Roman Catholicism who will break away from her pagan system at some point.

          Jim, I have been praying for you, that God would open your understanding. I am not against you, but I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God’s word, which is why I contend for truth. My genuine hope and prayer would be that you would believe in the true God and the true gospel.

      • also

        if you can see the dead, who no long have their physical bodies, you are seeing something, which is their spirit bodies

  65. To Marianne, dmcal et. al.
    Since you all believe that when you die you have some sort of spiritual body, do you also believe in ghosts? Many people believe ghosts are the spirits of the dead who missed the tunnel of white light that takes the dead to heaven.
    Millions of people have seen ghosts, so they must be real, eh?
    So then mediums and Ouija boards can be used to communicate with the dead, right? It is all part of the same theory but I can’t find scripture about ghosts. Maybe you can find some for us all.
    Also, if I speak to a loved one who has died, can they hear me? And Dan they watch me and everything I do? This too is common belief. People are always looking up to even and thanking their dead parents etc. for helping them when they were alive, so most people seem to assume God has given the dead these superpowers.
    I can’t find this in scripture so I wanted to get peoples ideas on what they think about all of this.
    In for a penny, in for a pound.

    • Jim said:
      “Since you all believe that when you die you have some sort of spiritual body, do you also believe in ghosts? Many people believe ghosts are the spirits of the dead who missed the tunnel of white light that takes the dead to heaven. Millions of people have seen ghosts, so they must be real, eh?”

      No Jim, I don’t believe in ghosts. And the reason for that is because of the scriptures that we have already provided. Scripture states that when a believer dies, their spirit immediately goes to be in the presence of the Lord. Likewise, as the rich man and Lazarus demonstrates, when the unrighteous die, their spirit departs from the body and goes in Hades. Therefore, God does not allow human spirits to wander around the earth. There is no such thing as “missing the tunnel of light” and that because God has his angels waiting for that soul that dies to take them to their respective places. We saw in the event of the rich man and Lazarus that when Lazarus died, scripture states that the angels came and took him to Abraham’s side in that place of paradise. God is not unorganized and unknowing that he would leave human spirits wandering around the earth after death.

      “So then mediums and Ouija boards can be used to communicate with the dead, right? It is all part of the same theory but I can’t find scripture about ghosts. Maybe you can find some for us all.”

      Anyone who is experiencing any type of paranormal activity, it is being performed by demonic beings. Things like, scratching or pounding on walls, odors, cold spots, moving objects, etc., are being performed by demonic beings. Part of the deception is getting people to believe in human hauntings and there are plenty who are deceived. When people use Ouija boards, have séances, read Tarot cards, tea leafs or ghost hunt, then they are inviting demonic activity into their lives. When people have seen apparitions of people, shadow people and the like, demonic beings are able to take on whatever form they want and that for the purpose of deception. There are no scriptures that support human being spirits remaining on the earth after death. They’re either in heaven in the presence of the Lord or they are in Hades until the great white throne judgment.

      You really need to do some soul searching and find the true God.

      • Hey, I agree with everything you just said. But you seem to believe in some sort of ghost beins in heaven who are able to see, talk and hear.
        Although you said the spirit of the unrighteous goes to hades, but Hades just means grave – where the dead go when they die to await resurrection. Hades has never been defined as a place of eternal torture. Even the righteous go to Hades to await resurrection. You are redefining terms to prove your theory.
        Yet you can’t find a single scripture about what heaven is like for these people – what they do to pass the time. If it was such a great place there should be all sorts of vivid descriptions throughout the bible to make it clear what we can expect when we die.
        Yet all the bible ever says is that we sleep. Why is that?
        As for the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, it is just that a parable and not a description of anything real. Until you realize that you will be basing your entire belief system on an incorrect interpretation.
        Of course there are many bible verses, especially prophecy that are misinterpreted. When I interpret hell properly, I come up with a simple scenario and I find no discrepancies with those half-dozen or so verses that hell believers continue to misinterpret. And I don’t have to make up stories to explain what the bible doesn’t mention. Like how a disembodied spirit can know anything. If you’re right they can eat hamburgers and dance the hula. If I’m right, they are sleeping.
        Hey, riddle me this:
        If the parable is real life, then that means that all the people in heaven can see and talk to their friends and relatives who are suffering in hell. Is that something you look forward to when you get to heaven? We don’t know for sure if they can see or talk to their living loved ones, but we know for sure they watch their friends burning in hell.
        Wow, now that’s what I call paradise!

        • Every single human being has a soul that lives FOREVER!!! That is one way the God made us in his image. So ( them beaming upward whatever you meant by that I’m not sure) BUT YES YES YES our “soul” either goes to paradise or torment .

    • Jim, may I please ask if you are CHRISTIAN? It seems to me you have a lot of anger and hate on your heart for Christians and the Bible. I’m just wondering because you made a comment about a scripture saying “it didn’t make sense” please please be careful when speaking that way. God knows your heart…… But I can see a spirit in you that is not for your good. You will be in my prayers!

      • Of course I’m Christian, but I do not accept all the pagan ideas that have been added to the churches in the last 2000 years. For example I do not accept Sunday Sabbath or Christmas and Easter. They are pagan based.
        Hell is the same thing. It was introduced into the church in the dark ages when no one had bibles to refute it. But Martin Luther did refute it when he started the Protestant reformation. He knew hell was pagan and he rejected it.
        Yet most “Christians” believe all these things came from the bible. Like Lurther I challenged all church doctrines I could not find in the bible. You can either do the same or just believe what you learned growing up and now take for granted.
        At least I’m in good company here. If the founder of Protestantism didn’t believe in hell then who’s to say I can’t possibly be right?
        I say God has too much love to torture billions of people FOREVER.
        Does saying that mean I must burn forever because I have offended Him?
        I’ll bet not.

        • Oh my!! Ok!!! Well….. If Jesus is your saviour you ALL the other stuff for you isn’t going to affect you:)

        • Hell is for those that rejected Jesus…. I am sure I offend HIM every day of my life…..some way or another HE is holy and I am not, HE IS EVERYTHING and I am nothing without HIM

          • Yes Andrea, if misinterpreting scripture is a sin, we are still covered by the blood of Jesus. But we should always be alert to the truth even it is not what we have believed our whole lives. I always believed in hell and that Catholicism was the only true religion and Protestants would burn in hell (still Vatican doctrine today). But I opened my mind and used basic logic and restudied the bible from various different church sources. Eventually I found a place where all my questions were answered perfectly but I had go give up many of my former beliefs.
            But now the bible makes perfect sense to me and I feel content that I am no longer lost and full of questions.
            I hope others may find a similar path but sadly most people seem to be on an expressway with no exits. People here think I have a closed mind but the opposite is true. A while ago I opened my mind to all new ideas that were different from my own and I was guided to where I am through logic and study without prejudice.
            For religious type this is nearly impossible but I come from science and engineering so my thought processes work differently. I thank God for that or else I would never have found the truth I know today.
            But not too many scientists or engineers come to this site so my task is formidable. But God calls on me to do this (as He does with everyone) so here I am.
            I find it interesting how many people claim I’ve never read the bible and that I hate God because of what I believe. They think I’m wrong about my interpretation of certain things and so they assume I don’t believe in Jesus. You fell into that trap. I have never ever made such a claim. I don’t get emotional, instead I am analytical. I know it is illogical to assume if someone has an incorrect interpretation of scripture then he must not believe in God. That is just silly, yet it has been used against me 100 times since I’ve been on this site.
            Go figure. I thought we were all Christians here.

            • Jim said:
              “Yes Andrea, if misinterpreting scripture is a sin, we are still covered by the blood of Jesus.”

              Not in every case Jim and Andrea. For example, those who are teaching who have misinterpreted scripture and are teaching that we are saved by grace and works are truly not in Christ and that because scripture states that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works. Yet, instead of people trusting completely in Christ’s sacrifice for our sins, they have included their own efforts as a requirement. By doing this they are basically saying that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient and because of this they are alienated from Christ and have wandered away from grace, trusting in their own works. This then becomes a false teaching and not merely a misinterpretation of scripture.

              Another example would be those who believe and teach that Paul was a false apostle and that his writings are not God-Breathed. There were people during Peter and Paul’s time who were believing this and here is what was said of them:

              “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. ”

              According to the above, Peter refers to Paul’s letters as “wisdom from God” and as scripture. Those who were distorting them and speaking against Paul, Peter called ignorant and unstable and did these things to their own destruction. Therefore, those who do the same with Paul’s writing’s today are also ignorant and unstable and do so to their own destruction. Paul was caught up to the third heaven where received revelations and visions directly from God. To reject Paul as one who was appointed as an apostle to the Lord Jesus by God the Father and to reject Paul’s writing’s, is to reject God who appointed him and to reject God’s word which he gave to him.

              Another example, would be the teaching that the resurrection has already taken place, as was the case with Hymenaeus and Philetus, who had departed from the truth saying that the resurrection had already taken place, and thereby destroyed the faith of some. Paul called it godless chatter and that this teaching would spread like gangrene. Therefore, anyone today who is teaching that the resurrection has already place falls under the same condemnation of Hymenaeus and Philetus. Another big one would be to not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ and there are others.

              So, there are some misinterpretations that are not eternal life threatening and others that are, for they become false teachings. Therefore, we must be sure of what we are teaching, that we have thoroughly studied the subject before teaching others.

    • king saul talked to the ghost of samuel

      https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Samuel+28&version=CEV

      so ghosts exist

      • Hi Marianne,

        God allowed the spirit of Samuel to come up from that same place where Abraham and Lazarus were. In the verse Samuel says, “Why have you called me up?” In the scripture there you can also tell that the medium was not used to actually seeing spirits, because she cried out when she saw the spirit of Samuel coming up. Also, notice that Samuel was wandering around the earth when he was called up.

    • moses also saw an angel on mt sinai, which is a spirit

      he also saw the spirit of god

      angels are spirits, and bible people saw them

      john saw the spirits of the dead in heaven

      and they no longer had physical bodies

      so yes, you can see a ghost, which is a spirit

  66. The prophet Ezekiel was inspired to write (twice): “The soul that sins, it shall die” (18:4, 20).

    Death is the absence of life. Death is not life in another place. It is not leaving “this life” for “another life”—the “next life.”

    Consider Matthew 10:28:

    “And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

    The Bible says that souls can be destroyed!

    According to this verse, they can be destroyed as much as bodies can.

    Now the Matthew verse has the term “hell” replacing the proper word Hades, or the grave. But as the verse stands, God will destroy the wicked, body and soul, in “hell” So hell (the graves) are filled with dead people. Completely Dead. Deceased. They are no more. Just like the dead parrot of Monte Python.
    You don’t understand the meaning of the word dead. To you dead means still alive in a different form. The bible never uses that word dead this way.
    The human soul is NOT immortal. It can be completely destroyed in the Lake of Fire. It is the second death from which there is no returning.
    Believe it or not. Its up to you. But be careful how you twist the words in the bible.

    • Hi Jim,

      ““And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him [God] which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

      The on-going problem is that you are not understanding what is meant by “destroy”. The word “Apollumi” here in this context means to devote or give over to eternal misery. It does not mean to annihilation or obliteration. The word “destroy” does not mean to cease to exist. It means complete ruin of body, soul and spirit in separation from God. If you would consider the other scriptures instead of circumventing them, you would come to this same conclusion. You are also not paying attention to the words:

      * They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

      * the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever

      * There will be no rest day or night

      Considering the verses above, they demonstrate that one is existing, conscious and aware in the midst of their torment, which is what is meant by destruction. You continue to look at being destroyed as meaning non existent. But when we look at the words above related to eternal torment, we can see that for the smoke of one to rise up for ever and ever, this would demonstrate that the soul is existing, conscious and aware. The word “Tormented” denotes on-going agony, not non-existence.

    • that is OT

      which is where you are stuck

  67. Yea Dmcal – You tell me not to write any books – maybe your perception is really off. Your post are everywhere.

    Gen. 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, ‘””lest ye die””‘.
    Die – 4191
    1) to die, kill, have one executed
    2) to die (as penalty), be put to death
    3. to die, perish (of a nation)
    4. to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)
    5. to kill, put to death, dispatch

    Gen. 3:4- And the “”serpent”” said unto the woman, “”Ye shall not surely die:”””
    a. This is the “First lying message” from a serpent =mankind being which has a “evil lying spirit” in them.
    b. And most Christians will believe that lie over anything else.
    c. The soul that sinneth that soul shall die –

    Eze. 18: 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: “””the soul that sinneth, it shall die”””.
    Also= 4191 – the “”SOUL”” that sinneth will die-talking about the “soul”

    Gen. 3:5 – For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and “ye” (evil mankind) shall be as gods”, knowing good and evil.
    433 from 410;
    1) false god
    2) God
    410 » ‘el from 352; 193
    1) god, god-like one, mighty one
    1a) “””mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes””
    1b) “””angels”””
    1c) god, “”false god”””, ALSO = (demons, imaginations)
    1d) God, the one true God, Jehovah
    2) mighty things in nature
    3) strength, power
    193 – 193 from an unused “””root meaning to twist””, (by implication) be strong;
    1) prominence
    1a) body, “”belly”” (contemptuous)
    1b) nobles, wealthy men
    The N.T also talks of mankind and loving their own belly. Their is your – Satan-That is why Jesus called them snakes – They were just in it for their own satisfaction. Cunning, smart, hidden in the multitudes, and loved to RULE over the “little flock” the innocent ones. That knew their God.

    Eze. 18: 20 The soul that sinneth, it “shall die”. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Eze. 18:21- ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, “””he shall surely live”””, “””he shall not die”””. Same as above

    I believe what Eze. Says – Jim and I both also have plenty of scriptures to prove we are right. Many from the O.T and the N.T.
    So It takes Faith – which is a “Reveling of the truth. By the Holy Spirit. Their is a lot more I could say on this subject.

    I have wrote in on many occasion about the Elyhim mystery which none of you seem to never want to talk about. Their is ONLY ONE GOD – yet Satan, angels and demons and imaginations by humans own spirits that live in UN-believers.

    Palisade

    • I think what we need is a definition of a dead soul….it does not have a body

      adam sinned in the garden…..his soul died but his body still lived

      all of us sin, but our bodies still live

      what is death of a soul?

      does it really mean extinguished.

      or does it mean a loss of everlasting life with God?

    • Hello Beacon,

      Not to be sarcastic, but was there point to all that you wrote above? I asked you for answers to specific things in a previous post and asked that you please not write a book, which you did anyway and didn’t answer any of the questions.

  68. Marianne,
    You’ve hit on the whole problem here. How do we define simple words like sleep and death.
    If you take them at face value, you find that the soul/spirt is not immortal.
    In order to support an immortal soul, you need to redefine these words to make them compatible with the idea of an immortal soul, which is a pagan concept.
    The Jews did not redefine these words, they knew what they meant. Christians do not get to change this just because they have Jesus.
    Something is awry here. The Catholic church slipped the Old Testament a mickey when they redesigned the bible for their nefarious purposes.
    This much I know from history books. Throw all of them out if you want but that won’t change the truth.
    I don’t trust interpretations that require me to completely redefine words I’ve known the definition of my whole life.

    • jim

      I quoted them before, but maybe you should do your own research and find the jewish concept of life after death

    • Jim,

      Understanding what death means can be found in all of those scriptures that I have been providing. For example, you say that the Eccl. 9:5 says that we know nothing in the grave, but yet when you read other scriptures such as Moses and Elijah appearing and talking with Jesus, the rich man and Lazarus dying and being found conscious and aware in Hades, Jesus saying “today you will be with me in paradise,” the conscious and aware souls under the altar, etc., you ignore them and find some other meaning instead of using them to define what happens to the soul/spirit after death. Comparing these scriptures and others should lead to one conclusion, that the sleep spoken of is in reference to the body only, while the soul/spirit is conscious and aware and in the presence of Christ or is in torment in Hades. Both are conscious and aware. To not come to that conclusion is to plainly ignore the other scriptures. So it is the comparison of different verses that also help us to understand what is meant by death or any other biblical topic.

      Based on this, every person who comes into the world lives forever. Life and death is the state of one’s conscious eternal existence. Even the unrighteous are resurrected receiving a new body, unfortunately, that new body is not to enjoy eternal life in, but eternal punishment. Jesus said regarding those who belong to him, “though they die, they shall live,” which of course is speaking about the death of this mortal body and the promise of the resurrection unto eternal life.

      As I have continued to point out, if you have words that say, “The smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever” and “they shall have no rest day or night,” the words in that context demonstrate conscious awareness of the person in the lake of fire. Based on those words it is impossible to interpret the person who is thrown into the LOF to be completely burnt up and becoming non-existent. To do so, would be to ignore the words in the context. It is the same thing for created angels, for they too will exist forever, some in the same on-going eternal life that they have already been experiencing and others will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will be conscious and aware forever.

      • It is impossible to argue with someone who owns the dictionary and can change definitions at will to fit his premise. You base your definitions on the outcome you desire. It reminds me of Clinton redefining the word “it.”
        So the whole argument is moot. You are convinced you are correct using your definitions and I am convinced using standard definitions.
        You will never change my mind back into believing in hell… been there, done that.
        You can redefine scriptures but you can’t rewrite history nor can you explain why the Jews didn’t read their Torah properly.
        But I’m glad to be in the minority. The true church is not the masses, but a tiny remnant. The whole world will follow the beast except for this remnant. The Catholic church is Mystery Babylon and all of its pagan practices will be destroyed. Sunday worship as well as hell are part of that. I came out of that religious system years ago and I don’t plan on going back.
        Soon the 2 witnesses will appear and begin teaching. But the bible says the world will hate them and try to kill them. Especially the beast power (the Vatican). The world will rejoice when they are finally killed. This tells me that whatever they will be teaching will be in conflict with mainstream Christianity. Hardly anyone will recognise them as the 2 witnesses of the bible. Most Christians will call them fakes and liars.
        How can so many devout Christians be so wrong? How come only a few get it right?
        If you are in mainstream Christianity this is a very important question.

  69. Jim said:
    “You read the word sleep and although the definition is a given, you read a parable, misinterpret it, buy into a concept that was introduced into the early church and still there today, so you assume that the word sleep must mean something else, so rather than looking for the proper interpretation of the other verses, you redefine a word that Jews have understood for 6000 years and say they read it wrong – in order to now be correct, the word sleep must now men something else. So you come up with a story that fits your pre-judged conclusions.”

    Jim, you’re still avoiding the issue. First of all, the word “sleep” is not defined. When I prove you wrong all you are doing is circumventing the scriptures that I am providing. Logic dictates that if you have the mention of death as sleeping and you have scripture showing the souls/spirits of those who have died conscious and aware, then the definition of sleep cannot mean that the soul/spirit is unconscious and unaware. All you have been doing is attempting to get rid of the evidence. Oh, this doesn’t fit with my belief and therefore I have to distort these scriptures that prove that the spirits of the dead are conscious and aware after death and explain them away. Forget what the Jews said and concentrate on what is written about it in the NT. You still haven’t given an answer for Paul’s description that when the body dies that the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. That is not sleeping in the dust of the earth! The body is, but spirit/soul is with Christ. What I have described is exactly how logic works. If you have different information that appears to be in opposition to each other, you don’t trash one side because you’re in favor the other.

    I’ll point it out again, when Jairus that leader of the synagogue’s litter girl had died, Jesus referred to her as being asleep, but then the scripture states that after Jesus took her by the hand “her spirit returned to her” which means that it was not in her body, but somewhere else. Same thing with Stephen when he was stoned and was dying, he said “I see the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” Then he said, “Lord, receive my spirit.” Jesus who is normally sitting at the right hand of God was standing to receive Stephen’s spirit, just as Paul taught that the when the body dies, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. And as a side note, the Jews were not privy to everything, for there has been a lot more information revealed in the new testament regarding many Biblical topics.

  70. Jim said:
    “The same is true for all the verses that “prove” the commandments were nailed to the cross with Christ. More lies and misinterpretations.”

    Obviously you haven’t read Galatians, Romans or Hebrews. Remember when I said that there are certain beliefs that are eternal life threatening? Well, you are guilty of two of them, one, that you believe Paul is not an apostle of God and that his writings are not God-Breathed and two, because you are trusting in works instead of believing that it is by grace through faith apart from works that you have been saved. Anytime anyone brings in something along side the shed blood of Christ by their own efforts as a requirement for salvation, they are basically saying that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient.

    God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

    Jim, though you think that you have the truth, if you continue believing this way, according to scripture, you will never enter into the kingdom of God.

    • You know, I thought you didn’t believe in the Ten Commandments. We went through this argument a while ago. You did the same thing you did here.I don’t buy either argument. I have dozens of New Testament verses that clearly state we must keep the commandments, but you ignore them and regurgitate the same few verses that you misinterpret into your proof.
      I’ll take clear verses over complicated interpretations every time. That is the only logical thing to do.
      But you don’t see my kind of logic. Have fun being the least in heaven.

  71. To all who believe in hell, here is a little bit of irony.
    You would all have to agree that if anyone is burning in hell it would be Adolph Hitler, right?
    Now consider what he did. He imprisoned millions of Jews in work camps and sent 6 million to the gas chambers. Life in the camps was rough and miserable. Some were even beaten and tortured. Then they were killed.
    So what happened next? Well according to you all, they went straight to hell. Without the blood of Jesus Christ they were doomed. So now, they are all writhing in agongy, their flesh burning 24/7/365/infinity. By now they are all praying to God to send them back to the prison camps to the warm bosom of Hitler and his minions. How ironic. The Jews get exactly the same punishment as Adolph Hitler. God must hate the Jews even more than Hitler did. And He can torture them far greater and far longer than the Nazis ever could.
    So, that is the character of your God. The God of the Jews. The apple of His eye.
    I guess He likes His apples roasted.

  72. Marianne,
    First of all, non-believers do not go to heaven. They sleep with the rest of the dead until the second resurrection. Even the righteous don’t go to heaven. They sleep until the first resurrection.
    During and after the end of the millennium the gospel will be taught to everyone who was ever born and who will listen. Those who become believers are saved, the rest are destroyed mind and spirit in the lake of fire and God is done with them.
    This is a simple, efficient system. Worthy of a loving, forgiving and just God.
    I’d hate to think God was even more cruel than Adolph Hitler.

    • jim

      god is not a liberal

      And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
      Hebrews 9:27

      no second chances.

      what you say is not biblical

      no one gets saved after they die

      they die, then get judged

      read your bible…all of it

  73. The bible says they will be judged according to their works. Does this mean we can be saved by our works alone? Remember, if there is judgement it won’t be a kangaroo court. So God won’t just be whisking the whole batch away to hell. Why even bother with the Great White Throne Judgement if they are already prejudged?
    So it follows that besides their works they must also accept Jesus.
    This is a complex topic. If you want to learn more you need to read the book, ”Mysteries of the Ages” by Herbert W. Armstrong. It is a long book with many biblical passages, too many for me to recall.
    But believe me (or not) my (Mr. Armstrong’s) premise is quite biblical. Neither of us made it up.
    But you will never be enlightened because your mind is made up. I’m glad I was able to keep an open mind before reading this book.
    Anyway, if you think you’re right, just stick with it and look no further. Why should we be telling others how they will be judged by God.
    Lets just worry about our own judgement and let God sort out the reat.

    • you contradict yourself.

      one must accept jesus to go to heaven.

      you were complaining how mean god would be to exclude unsaved jews a moment ago

      you ramble on and do not know what you are talking about

      mr armstrong has nothing to do with your confusion.

      you are confused by yourself

      • I learned everything I know from Mr. Armstrong‘s many books. I could never have figured it out on my own. Too many scriptures in too many places. According to Mr. Armstrong (based on scriptures) those Jews will sleep in the dust of the earth until the second resurrection. Those who accept Jesus as their true messiah will become as any other Christian. They will receive eternal life and without having spent 75 years burning in hell.
        Why even resurrect someone if you will immediately throw them right back in hell? If as you say, these people are already judged at death, then the second resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgement are just a big waste of time.
        And if the Lake of Fire is hell, then why throw death and hell into itself? And if the wicked are already doomed to hell, who are the people being thrown into the Lake of Fire before hell goes in there?
        I’m sure you can come up with some weird, convoluted explanation by redefining simple words and making up little excuses for why it sounds so complicated but it all comes from your imagination filling in gaps with what you think are logical, “must be” answers.
        But God is not the author of confusion.
        The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And it is in this case.

    • No wonder Jim is messed up. He thinks that Armstrong who was the founder of the world wide church of God, adheres to the word of God. So, here is some of the basic teachings of Mr. Armstrong. Let’s see if they match scripture:

      1. The only true church in existence today is the Worldwide church of God.

      Rebut:
      Anyone who confesses with their mouth that Christ is Lord and believes in their hear that God raised him from the dead will be saved.
      =================================

      2. Armstrong is the only true interpreter of Scripture today for he is God’s appointed apostle for the end times.

      Rebut:
      The above is usually a sign of a false teacher, as one who is claiming to be the only apostle of God. It’s a form of brain-washing so that people will only adhere to his teachings.
      =================================

      3. The Saturday Sabbath is the only true day of Christian worship

      Rebut:
      “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.”
      ================================

      4. The OT dietary laws and the Ten commandments are to be followed if one is to achieve salvation.

      Rebut:
      This would be attempting to earn salvation instead of receiving it as a free gift by grace through faith.
      ================================

      5. Salvation is future, not present. It is not an act but a process. Justification is merely the wiping away of past sins but does nothing for the sins of the present; the individual is responsible for keeping God’s law. Only Jesus has achieved salvation.

      Rebut:
      Once a person receives Christ, then scripture states that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And John said,

      “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

      Notice that John says “that you may know that you have (present tense) eternal life.” And Jesus said to disciples,

      “do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names ARE WRITTEN IN HEAVEN.”

      Again, if there names were already written in heaven, that is, in the book of life, then they currently have eternal life. Those who receive Christ and continue in faith have eternal life. The word “Justification” means to be deemed by God to be righteous and therefore, justification is not a process. What is a process is our sanctification, which is the on-going process of being made holy. Even though we are sinners, God sees us through Christ who is perfect. We are credited with righteousness, we can’t obtain it by our own efforts.
      ==================================

      6. To enter God’s kingdom, one must be immersed in water by a minister of the Worldwide Church of God.

      Rebut:
      Gee, I wonder if the apostles were aware of this when they were baptizing, as well as all of those who were baptized throughout the centuries before Mr. Armstrong came along?
      =================================

      7. Being born again has nothing to do with a spiritual renewal in one’s life.

      Being born again is exactly spiritual renewal in that, baptism is symbolic of self dying with Christ and being raised with him. Being submerged is figurative of the dying of our old self and coming up is figurative of coming up the new person in Christ. Therefore, Mr. Armstrong is exactly opposite of Scripture teaches.
      ================================

      8. There is no eternal nature of the soul. Man does not have a soul; he is a soul. The soul ceases to exist at death but is recreated in a future resurrection.

      Someone should go tell those souls under the altar in heaven at the fifth seal then, as well as Moses and Elijah and the rich man and Lazarus. Every person who comes into the world exists forever. It is the condition of that existence which is defined as eternal life or eternal punishment, which is determined by having faith or not having faith.
      ===============================

      9. All of Scripture is meant to be taken literally and never figuratively.

      Really? Well Mr. Armstrong, let me know when you see a literal enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns or a literal woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars on her head.

      • I think you are putting too much work into answering him.

        • She’s right.
          I’m not listening. I’m talking to a brick wall. You don’t even realize that the Worldwide Church of God is no longer the true church. Just as the bible predicted it turned Laodicean after Mr. Armstrong’s death. It reverted to Sunday worship and stopped prophesying. A new church emerged in the wake which continues his legacy. You can’t learn about Mr. Armstrong from a Google search. I’ve read all of his books and booklets and his interpretation of prophecy has proved correct to this point.
          The only other possible candidate for the “End-Time Elijah” spoken of by Jesus would be Jack Van Impe. I assume he is your choice since he helped write the screenplay for the “Left Behind” movies. He’s got all the popular plot twists – rapture, New World Order, One-World Government, Antichrist dictator (Obama, currently he thinks), One world Currency and the famous chip in the hand.
          Only he still believes in the Ten Commandments, so maybe he’s not your prophet. Well, maybe YOU are the End-Time Elijah. Or maybe Jesus was only kidding or He completely forgot. Or maybe He’s not here yet and the Second Coming is still quite a ways away.
          If you can’t identify this man then you need to get to work looking for him. Jesus didn’t send him so we could just ignore him.
          So good luck with that.

      • dmcal,
        You mentioned the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars on her head.
        There is also the scarlet woman riding the beast. These women represent churches – the true and the false churches respectively.
        These churches are literal churches and while it has been persecuted throughout its existence, the true church is still around today. According to the Book of Revelation, it is the church that keeps the commandments of God and has the testimony of Jesus Christ. Clearly, you are not in that church, nor is any church that believes Sunday is the new Sabbath. So that narrows things down a bit.
        But you probably believe the “true church” is not literal but just conceptual or not a church at all but a country or race of intelligent beings.
        This is what Mr. Armstrong teaches, not a literal woman as you suggest. Apparently, when it comes to the true church you don’t know what you’re talking about.

        • homeless

          https://dawnasongiblogstr8sicit.wordpress.com/2015/10/16/where-are-the-homeless-disappearing-to/

        • Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars:

          Sun = Jacob

          Moon = Wives

          Twelve Stars = twelve tribes of Israel

          The Woman = The nation Israel

          ===============================

          The woman who rides the beast:

          “The woman you saw is that great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

          Rome was that city that ruled of over the kingdoms of the earth at the time that John was receiving this information

          “The seven heads are seven hills upon which the woman sits.”

          Rome was built on and is famous for her seven hills

          “She was dressed in purple and scarlet and glittering with gold”

          Purple and scarlet are the exact colors of the RCC liturgy and all of her articles used in her pagan rituals, such as candle holders, utensils, plates etc., are all gold plated or are made of pure gold.

          “This is what Mr. Armstrong teaches, not a literal woman as you suggest”

          I challenge to find anywhere where I referred to the woman who rides the beast as a literal woman. This is just another example of how you don’t pay attention. As John said, the woman is symbolic for that great city that ruled over the kings of the earth, which was Rome at that time. Therefore, the woman is the city of Rome which is pointing us to her pagan religious system that she is famous for, Roman Catholicism. The woman which is a city, sits on seven hills, “Come and see the seven hills of Rome” which is a popular slogan for Rome’s tourism.

          http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M678377486cba92d9acf041eabf62428ao0&w=243&h=180&c=7&rs=1&qlt=90&o=4&pid=1.1

          • You inferred that Herbert W. Armstrong taught a literal woman, but he did not. I figured you thought woman was Israel from former discussions. In prophecy a woman always represents a church. Not sometimes a nation, sometimes a church.
            Rev 12:
            13 Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
            14 But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.
            17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
            If this woman is Israel, is Israel going to disappear into the “wilderness” for 3-1/2 years? And the offspring of the woman “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ“
            That doesn’t sound like Jews to me.
            The woman is the true church. The one Jesus promised to protect and keep out of harm during the tribulation. And not by rapturing them to heaven. Revelation contrasts the true church to the great false church. The entire theme of the Book of Revelation is about cleansing the worlds churches before the marriage to Christ. The first three chapters – the letters to the current churches – show us that in just 50 years most of the Christian churches had failed to keep the true faith. A harbinger of things to come. Now 99% of Christian churches do not keep the commandments. They will be cleansed and their pagan practices and beliefs will be destroyed (Babylon). Hell is one of those pagan beliefs which will be cleansed. Say goodbye to Christmas and Easter and Halloween and Valentines day. Forget about working on Saturday. Things are going back to the time of the church at Philadelphia. The church will look more Jewish than Christian.
            And no more popes.

  74. To All:

    If Adam had shown just a little restraint the world wouldn’t be in the giant mess it is in today. Oh really? Well, why then didn’t Adam exercise restraint? What went wrong? Did the first humans malfunction? Was there a flaw in their original design? God was the Designer; is God to blame? Not according to Christendom. Is He at least responsible? Not according to Christendom. But why not?
    Now listen carefully. Here is wisdom beyond its years. When a scientist creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is he responsible for the malfunction? Yes. Does he hold the experiment or machine responsible? No. Does he hold God responsible? No. Okay.
    Now then, according to Christendom, when God creates an experiment or machine that malfunctions, is He responsible for the malfunction? No. Does He hold the experiment or machine responsible? Yes. Does He hold man responsible? Yes. See the wisdom?
    I have just shown you one reason why God calls the WISDOM of this world STUPIDITY!
    “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness [Greek: stupidity] with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness” (I Cor. 3:19).
    First, Christendom assumes that God’s creation of humans malfunctioned — it did NOT!
    Second, they assume that God is not responsible and does not take responsibility — He DOES!
    One unscriptural assumption added to another unscriptural assumption does not equal a Bible Truth!
    Few indeed have ever stopped long enough to consider that just maybe God intended for the world to be in the hellish mess that we find it. Not for all eternity, but for the present, for a period of time, for a great purpose. It just seems so wrong to Christian thought to believe that God would have purposed such an evil and unhappy world. But look at the alternative. Are we to believe that God tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to make a good creation, but was unaware of its potential to run amok? And ever since, God must therefore either lack the love for humanity to straighten it out, or He lacks the power and ability. But either way it disowns God’s sovereignty and presents us with a God Who either CANNOT or WILL NOT STOP THE INSANITY! They would have us believe that God’s solution to rid the world of sin and evil is to torture most of humanity in fire for all eternity.
    The whole idea is blasphemous. If a carnal-minded human can take responsibility for an invention that malfunctions, I submit that God is bigger and more responsible than puny man. Be it known to all that God takes full responsibility for His creation, and absolutely nothing in His creation is malfunctioning. Here’s the proof

  75. Part 2 -Let’s look at a little understood Scripture.
    “For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW” (Rom. 8:20-22)!
    Wow! Did you know that Scripture is in the Bible? Have you ever meditated at length on its meaning? This one Scripture does much damage to Christian doctrine. From a strictly carnal-minded approach, this Scripture is devastating. Let’s see what these words entail from Strong’s GREEK DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT:
    VANITY: empty, profitless, vain, transientness [temporary], depravity [wickedness].
    BONDAGE: slavery, subjection, subserviency.
    CORRUPTION: shrivel, wither, spoil, ruin, deprave, defile, destroy, decay, perish
    GROAN: moan, calamity, be in straits, murmur, grief, grudge, anguish.
    TRAVAIL: pangs, to pain together, travail as in birth.
    PAIN: anguish, toil for daily subsistence, starving.
    The force of these verses in Rom. 8:20-22 is inescapable. It was God HIMSELF Who subjected the whole creation to vanity, and He didn’t ask anyone’s permission before He did it. And it is only God Himself Who will deliver the whole creation from the bondage of corruption, pain, and suffering. Make no mistake about it: God is the Creator of evil, and He takes full responsibility for the deliverance from the consequences of all the evils that have caused the creation to “groan and travail in PAIN until NOW” as Paul describes. God takes responsibility for the temporary failures of creation so that He can take all the credit and glory for its successes.
    And most of the glory that God will receive is from the glory that He gives to all mankind.
    It was not possible for Satan NOT TO SIN — he was created for the express purpose of being God’s Adversary, and so, of course, he was a sinner “FROM THE BEGINNING”!
    It was not possible for Adam and Eve NOT TO SIN — they were created for the express purpose of being molded into the “image of God;” and so of course, they had to eat of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and evil or they would have NEVER reached this first spiritual step in becoming LIKE GOD (in His IMAGE,) a step of paramount

    DIVINE REQUISITE:
    “And the LORD God said, Behold [consider, to perceive, to know, to understand], the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US [Hebrew for ‘God’ is elohiym which is the plural of elowahh, hence ‘us’], TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL…” (Gen. 3:22).
    Knowing “good and evil” is one of the most essential requisites in being formed in the image of God. To truly “know” both good and evil they HAD to partake of its source, which was the “TREE of the knowledge of good and evil,” which then DEMANDED that they SIN in order to obtain this “knowledge.” NO OTHER TREE IN THE GARDEN POSSESSED THIS NEEDED KNOWLEDGE!
    And so it was GOD, and none other than GOD, Who intended from the beginning that Satan and man SIN! That does not make God a sinner, for a sin is a “mistake,” a “missing of the mark,” a “falling short of the glory of God,” and God has NEVER MADE A MISTAKE OR FALLEN SHORT OF TOTAL PERFECTION! God knew what He was doing and how things would turn out BEFORE He created ANYTHING! “Declaring the end from the beginning…” (Isa. 46:10). Satan and man are “accountable” for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart, but God takes “responsibility” for their sins, and therefore had already provided them a Saviour BEFORE the foundation of the world:
    “But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifested in these last times for you” (I Pet. 1:19-20).
    “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [Christ] slain from the FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD” (Rev. 13:8).
    Is anyone so naive and blind as to believe that God had prepared a Lamb, a Sacrifice, His SON, to be slain for the sins of the world at a time when theologians would have us believe God didn’t even KNOW there was shortly coming such a thing as SIN? God knew; God is smart! It was God Who created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    Enough for now; If you really want to know all the mystery of Hell and Heaven. It will completely change your thoughts on the Eternal sinner being in a Eternal lake of fire. But we must read sometimes. In little pieces. To not overcome younger Christians. They need what I am putting on here.

    Beacon: Dear Marianne I hope you let me do this in sections cause I believe it will really set you and many people free from the theologians curses they have wrote wrong commentaries in the Book of Revelation. That is a serious thing and I just want to present the whole thing to you and your other post people. It will be an understandable reading for all Christians – God bless you.

    • beacon

      it is true that god made us imperfect, so we would have to depend upon him.

      same with satan, who was almost perfect, but his pride got the best of him

      I think the purpose was to make us choose between the dark part in ourselves and the good that was in god

    • beacon,
      Nicely said.
      You reminded me of an interesting point about humanity.
      In most countries even the worst criminals are just kept in solitary confinement. Torture is outlawed. When we hear of some nations using torture we condemn them as barbaric and inhumane.
      It seems God made humanity with a conscience against things like torture.
      SO, we look at say world War 2 and we see Nazi concentration camps and the many Americans that fought (and died) their way across Europe to free them. So in this story, who are the good guys? Does it seem obvious?
      So, if we all agree that the Nazis were evil because they used torture, what does that say about the character of God and Jesus? Are they less “humane” than most of us?
      If you agree that prisoners should never be tortured, then you might as well put God in the same class as Nazis. In fact, the Nazis were kind compared to God. If you believe in hell then you have lost your humanity.
      I think hell would be appalling and maniacal if it existed.
      Thank God it does not.

      • big diff between god and nazis

        nazis punished innocent people

        god punished evil people

        • Not really. According to you millions of innocent people like say, Ghandi, are burning in hell right now because they happened to be born in a non-christian country. That is their only sin. They are not evil.
          You were only punished by the Nazis if you happened to be born Jewish. Wrong religion. Same thing.
          Your version of God aactually sounds evil, at least by “human” standards.

          • You still don’t understand do you Jim? No one is entitled to salvation! It is a free gift to those whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified. Therefore, those who happen to be born in a non-Christian country and any other reason that you can think of, are still guilty of sin. God could have decided to not save anyone and no one could say that God was unfair and that because all have sinned and the wages for sin is death. By God’s love and his mercy he decided to save some throughout all history. And regarding this election he says to Pharaoh, “I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” And also God says, “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compassion.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

            But besides all of this, scripture is clear that the gospel will be preached to all nations and the end will come. There is also a reference to this in Rev.14 where God will send an angel and he will be proclaiming the everlasting gospel to the entire earth.

  76. Thanks Marianne I appreciate you return – I was thinking this morning. Maybe I should send this article that I have had for years to you. Its about 10 pages long and completely covers the 2nd. Death and Eternal punishment. It is worth it to read it. Unless you would want me to put the highlights of the Message up like these two I just put up. I would be glad to do it. But I got to thinking. Maybe you would not want me to use up a lot of the post. But it is a very, very good article on the subject of the 2nd. death and Eternal punishment. Most will not labor to read all things that consist of giving us true revelation on any subject matter. That is the worst problem for us all. So let me know on a post here or private. Ok. God bless you.

    Palisade

  77. While traditional Christians believe in hell fire and eternal hell, traditional Jews do not.
    So, how did this line of thinking change?

    1. The Dark Ages is how it happened. “Catholicism” = Universal Church brought in all the pagan doctrines and superstitions and taught them right out of paganism of the Roman Caesar’s which was from Cains seed. Cain to Nimrod etc. The Beast always leaves his trail. He’s Evil.

    2. They made all the Disciples different gods as well. And then make statue’s of them and the people bow down to stone Idols. Thats a no no in O.T and N.T.

    3. Eternal hell is taught in most pagan religions.

    4. Catholicism really had a great money maker going for them. Fear of Eternal torture etc. is always a good money maker. When you can pay your sinner relatives out of purgatory and they will not go to a eternal burning lake of fire in misery. Hey you will always get a lot of people in that church.

    5. And of course the Pontiff’s replaced the Caesar’s. So the “Pontiff Maximus” got all the Praise for letting the people enter into Saint hood for deliverance. And the people we so grateful. And Loved the one who could deliver them out of purgatory and make them a Saint. Instead of going to a Eternal burning lake of fire. That is paganism to the core. The False Prophet of Rome’s Caesar dynasty was replaced and re-appeared as a GOD AGAIN finally in the 4th. century. They just changed to Pope or Papa which was replacing GOD as a Caesar Imperialist man. You could say that Rome took on Christianity by Constantine when he made Christianity their RELIGION. And it became a “savior to Rome to this day”. But not of REAL Christianity. In the beginning it not doubt was a good church. Because God sent them 2 Prophets to preach in the Church of Rome. But it got so rich and dignitaries got offended and they kicked out the Real Pastors. Then God sent them back to that church again. And they become overseer’s of that church till they died.
    a. The Roman church just made another Roman church and it was pagan, and got worse and worse. They had 1st Church of Rome then the 2nd. Roman church and then the 3rd. Church of Rome and it became really a rich church. Yet they finally became a false church. They actually started out with Pentecostal God given Prophets and teacher’s that taught Jesus Christ Message to them. They were possessed with Politicians as well. Its in your History books. They like today’s politicians want favor with the people only.

    6. And this is how the Dark Ages really got started. It became the worst enemy of the common people and other Nations abroad. Most all “”pagan religions”” have more than ONE GOD to serve.
    a. Go back into early Genesis – and Nimrod and his wife and son. That is where it all came from. 3 gods.
    b. The Philistines God was a FISH GOD called DAGON. The Pope to this day in 2,015 A.D still wears that same “Fish God Hat” that the Philistines wore back in Davids day. Think about it dear Brother and Sisters.
    c. The staff the Pope carries is pagan to the core and identifies with Egypt for goodness sake. The fertility god. Round and a cross over it. Meaning the Seed of satan. “”Circle stands for Eternity”””
    d. The great white dress that flows behind him goes for many feet. They have to have help at times. That also was the “tail of the FISH GOD. Dagon.
    e. Add a “r” into Dagon and you got a “””dragon”””. Rev. 12
    f. These truths are very easy to find. Just read a “”Wycliffe”” Bible Dictionary for goodness sake. They got the pictures and all in them. Many sources of all kinds of different books reveal what Christianity Universal-ism is all about.

    7. Lets also remember to be a Catholic Priest you had to devote you life to the Pope’s authority – NOT CHRISTS AUTHORITY. And never 2nd. guess them or die. As many did and were burnt at the stake.

    8. The “common people” were not allowed to even read the Bible. And in some cases they were not even allowed to pray. Remember also that their was no printing press machines printing out Bibles. A Bible was a rare item in the dark ages of the Early Christian Church’s. If you called yourself a Christian you belonged to the Popes Church or die. And or be tortured and burnt on the stake “just like in the Caesar’s day”. Very authoritative.

    9. So their was a “great great” fear of Darkness in the only church that was allowed to say they were the Real Christians after a couple hundred years of Christianity. And no body dare to think otherwise. Especially a poor common man’ or woman’ or child’ or Priest.

    Now lets remember “Israel had a Dark ages as well”. From Malachi to Matthew it was about 300 to 400 years before Christ. Now when did it go into darkness. Read below. David was a 1,000 years before Christ.

    You have just heard of the N.T””gap of dark ages”” before the N.T came.
    1. Israel had been slaves in Egypt , Assyria, Babylon, Medes and Persia, then Greece with their great Intellectuals, and last was Rome. And Malachi is just another 3 or 4 hundreds years to go in darkness.
    2. Now Israel just like in Egypt took on their pagan traits even after Moses led them across the Red sea and all the other miracles that were done. Yet they had NO FAITH or HEART for the Journey to the PROMISE LAND. And actually wanted to go back to EGYPT and wanted to KILL MOSES HELLO
    3. NOW -So think of all Israel after the fall of Solomon’s GOLDEN AGE – millennium. = Great Peace, No War, and were ruling the World.
    4. Then a GREAT SPLIT come and tore Israel into 2 nations basically.
    5. Along with that Israel got so used to being slaves and lived with the pagan’s Nations above and or beside them as well for centuries till Christ came. But most of them were not Israel but misfits to the Nations pagan gods.
    a. God sent them Prophets and they killed all of them Jesus said.
    b. What happened – Those Nations of Daniel educated the Jews with more pagan religion which is always DARK sayings of false hood.

    Oh yea Israel they had their Pentecost revival right across the Red sea.
    1. They went into the Promise land with Great Leaders, Great Prophets and men of valor doing great Miracles and listening to their Judge’s = Prophets etc.
    2. But come out with Pagan beliefs. After the revival was over. They went into their dark ages after Malachi for 3 to 4 hundred years. It was enough cause they could not recognize the Word of God when HE JESUS was looking and Teaching them the TRUE word again. Why because they left their God for other gods and doctrines of devils. Yet remained as Jews but lived like all the worldly Nations did as well. But for the remnant.
    3. By the time Jesus Came the Sanhedrin was so scholar-ed they knew more than Jesus Christ they thought. They called HIM a DEVIL.
    4. And they sold out their own Messiah for wealth and power and went in to politics with Rome for goodness sake. By their great pagan scholars of advice and intellectual carnality. They knew NOTHING of the SPIRIT of GOD. They become so literal with their Law they had forgot about LOVE and the SPIRIT OF GOD will not always strive with man.
    What happened:
    1. Israel went with the World’s Nations and leaned their ways. And became great theologians, and administrator’s, and very intellectual only.
    2. Malachi records all the evil that the O.T Scholars were doing in his day. Their worship was not received, it was a stinch in Gods nostrils. Their Priest were on the take with wealth and married many strange foreign wives and got rid of their Jewish wife’s and married into foreign wife’s. Being in a “”bond with a Foreign wife”” was a good “”Political move”” to get rich and have more power and authority over the common people.
    3. God told them they would burn up in ashes.

    The “”dark ages”” always take away the TRUE Word of God for fables, and
    superstitions, and carnal understanding of scriptures. God is a Spirit and we must KNOW HIM IN the SPIRIT to even Worship Him.
    He alone is Eternal. His Word is Eternal. His Word is Spirit and Life= zoe.

    1. Its been over 2,000 years since Christ Came. And Christianity has fell into a great dark abyss. Of false Doctrines which led to Carnality and false Christs. It takes a Restoration in every age to restore and or get more Revelation than we had. “”Knowing Christ is a “evolution of learning”. Their are so many false doctrines in this world today. And we are mixing them all together again in a “Universal church” for the One World Government. For God to burn them up. GONE good by.

    Two lakes of fire
    1 That is the wrath of “” evil mans lake of fire”” = natural, Wars, weather, volcano’s, earthquakes, floods, famine, diseases of curses and you name it. It kills people. God destroys the men who destroy the earth. They are satan’s, devils, and beast that are not in the IMAGE of Jesus Christ Character. Not having the Spirit the Bible says. Clouds with no rain. Their god is their belly slivering around trying to sift the real believer like wheat.

    2. But the “”Spiritual Lake of Fire”” is Gods fire that refines us and gets all the evil out of us so we can become in HIS IMAGE. Which is Eternal life. Faith is the Revelation of the Word. Not your intellect carnal mind, soul, heart etc. That was the tree of knowledge that we ALL have to deal with even after conversion.

    Mal. 1: 1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, “that shall burn as an oven”; and all the “proud”, yea, and all that “do wickedly”, shall “be stubble”: and the day that cometh shall “”burn them up””, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither “”root nor branch””.

    Now if you really want to understand hell which means death – and Eternal life which is Eternal. Just get your concordance and look up what the Hebrew says. My goodness.
    The scripture above is self explanatory. If you got a computer you got a Bible concordance. Strong’s is a favorite of many cause of its Trinitarian
    of 3 gods and Eternal hell and Millenniums and puts most things into the future instead of being already fulfilled. But I use it cause most Christians are so influenced by Catholicism and just don’t know they are Catholics. Now that does not mean I believe every Catholic is not going to make it. Only God is the Judge of HIS PEOPLE. God always looks and the Heart and goodness of people. Some have never ever heard the Gospel and yet sit in church’s every week. So in some ways it will be the Pastor’s fault if they do get judged for DEATH and not Eternal life. God is a JUST GOD and died for the whole World. Only God knows who His children are.

    Palisade.

    • I didn’t think that someone could be so screwed up regarding the truth of God’s word, but you have proven me wrong Beacon. By the way, not every translation came from Roman Catholicism. The Codex Sinaiticus was not written by them nor edited by them and it has the same information regarding Hades and the Lake of fire that my Bible does. There are not two lake’s of fire, but only one and it is a literal place which was originally prepared for Satan and his angels. All whose names that are not written in the book of life will be thrown in there where they will experience conscious, on-going punishment for ever and ever, just as scripture states. Nothing that you have said above can even remotely be backed up with scripture. You just make it up as you go along in the scriptures according to Beacon.

    • palisade

      what do you think jesus saved us from?

  78. Palisade,
    Don’t be dissuaded by dmcal. I find it amazing how much time and effort he takes to counter the real truth. And how many clear verses of the bible he just ignores and tries to “outprove” them with clever interpretations from a few specific verses elsewhere in the bile. He even argues that the Ten Commandments are null and void by the death of Jesus. Despite all the NT verses to the contrary, including these:
     Mat 5:19
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     Mat 15:9
    But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
     Mat 19:17
    And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good ut one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
     Mat 22:40
    On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
     Mar 7:7
    Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
     Mar 10:19
    Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
     Mar 12:29
    And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
     Luk 1:6
    And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
     Luk 18:20
    Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
     Jhn 14:15
    If ye love me, keep my commandments.
     Jhn 14:21
    He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
     Jhn 15:10
    If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
     Act 1:2
    Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
     1Co 7:19
    Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
     1Co 14:37
    If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
     Eph 2:15
    Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
     Col 2:22
    Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
     Col 4:10
    Aristarchus my fellowprisoner saluteth you, and Marcus, sister’s son to Barnabas, (touching whom ye received commandments: if he come unto you, receive him;)
     1Th 4:2
    For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
     Tit 1:14
    Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
     1Jo 2:3
    And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
     1Jo 2:4
    He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     1Jo 3:22
    And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
     1Jo 3:24
    And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
     1Jo 5:2
    By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
     1Jo 5:3
    For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
     2Jo 1:6
    And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
     Rev 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
     Rev 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
     Rev 22:14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    .
    Catch that first one and the last one. These would scare me if I were him, but he is content to ignore all these verses and stick with his misinterpretation of a few other verses that don’t mean what he thinks they mean.
    Let‘s see how many of these verses he can unravel and turn them into the opposite of what they say to you and me.
    Good luck dmcal

  79. palisade -what do you think jesus saved us from? Marianne

    answer
    1st. – We became fallen angels of God after Adam’s sin. Mankind lost his IMAGE of God by carnal Knowledge of unbelief. So we all got snake bit. It takes true Salvation to “RISE” you back up from a poisonous snake bite of wanting sin so bad you would give up Eternal salvation. Our “election” was in “jeopardy by the seed of the serpent”. = Man kinds carnal instincts.

    2nd. God really had “A Plan for Salvation” when HE made mankind to begin with. He had to create both darkness and light. The darkness was to wake up to the light. The Light in mankind had fallen into darkness. And they were helpless.
    Gen. 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then “began – men – to call” upon the name of the LORD.
    MEN = 582 ‘enowsh from 605;
    1) man, mortal man, person, mankind
    605 -605 »’anash
    1) to be weak, sick, frail- to be incurable – to be sick – desperate, incurable, “desperately wicked”, woeful, very sick (pass participle) (metaphorical)
    1b) (Niph) to be sick
    Marianne – to me just the Word MEN or MAN Means what it says above. They are MORTAL. NOT ETERNAL BEINGS – They lost their light and their way and become Beastly – carnal. The Spirit was Fallen.
    Notice – I have never read in the Bible that Evil man will live for Eternity.

    3. This was Gods plan in the beginning. God let his Angels put on flesh bodies. And knew they would fall. BUT HE also had the remedy for it.

    4. God did not just want ROBOTS with no passion or soul. And their were only 2 Trees to chose from. Yea God is Alpha and Omega. He knew what HE was doing. Omega is the ending for the Fallen angels that lusted in Noah’s day etc. to our day now. Every evil person that would not heed himself to Gods ways and Love.

    5. Remember GOD HAD THE PLAN – Rev. 5. To become a MAN HIMSELF and release mankind from the curse of being fallen.

    6. Now God used Evolution to bring salvation to HIS LOST Children. It started with a Blood sacrifice of an animal. Then came Abraham with Faith. Then came “”Abraham’s seed Israel”” and was slaves in Egypt. Then “”Moses was sent to them””. We know Moses had Christ in him cause He was a chosen vessel as all Gods Children are chosen vessels. Paul said so. It was Christ that was in him. Moses “”had to give the Law”” so they could be judged. Where their is no law. A man is free. Jesus said so. Its in the N.T. So God had to put out the do’s and dont’s. To be able to judge an evil man from a righteous man. He used the WORD of GOD. Then HE became GOD HIMSELF in a FLESH body. – that was HIS plan from the beginning. God never makes a mistake.

    7. This was God working HIS plan of salvation to all men. But it had to go through a Process of time element. Until Christ came the ULTIMATE Sacrifice brought us back to Eternal life. The ULTIMATE BLOOD sacrifice.

    8. Christ gave HIMSELF to the “whole world”. But HE KNEW the “Whole World” was not going to receive him.

    9. So therefore their is Evil man that will “”die the death””. That is what the Tree of Death spoke of in the very Beginning. NOTICE The “Tree of Life” came back when Jesus died, and Rose again for our fallen Souls. Jesus BOUGHT us back with HIS Sacrifice and gave us the “Tree of Life” = Regeneration for Eternity to all that would receive it. Who was the Tree of Life in the Garden = Jesus Christ. Who was the Satan. = mankind = men. Man is the real satans. God became a man – Satan become a man – fallen mankind that wanted nothing to do with GODS words.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the “spirit is “”””dead””””, so faith without works is “”””dead”””” also.
    3498 » nekros nekus (a corpse); = dead
    AV — dead (132) – 1a) one that has breathed his last, lifeless
    1b) deceased, departed, one whose soul is in Hades = dead in death
    1c) destitute of life, without life, inanimate = dead
    2a) “”spiritually dead”” i.e. “”destitute of a life”” that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins; inactive as respects doing right
    2b) destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative

    I got to go Marianne – I hope this has helped you that is my prayer.
    I will ask you a question. Would you want the responsibility of casting someone into a Eternal Lake of Fire for Eternity.
    a. It cannot happen. You would have to been “born again” to live in a Eternal state. Hey I just know you going to see that soon.
    b. Jesus Christ ONLY has Eternal life. He proved he was a man by dying. BUT then ROSE. Who else could that have been But GOD in a flesh body.
    c. The Eternal Spirit of the Pillar of Fire.
    anything else – dog, beast, snake, frog, evil man whatever will die. All animals will die.
    d. Have faith – cause GOD is a JUST GOD. People put their self into eternal death cause they never took advantage of the “Tree of Life” that came back proving this MAN JESUS reappeared. Yes man today says. YOU will not SURELY DIE – MAN IS A LIAR = a satan, a devil, etc. etc.

    Palisade

  80. dmcal – get your blinders off brother and see the truth. Don’t be so hard headed. –

    Bro. Jim – thanks for you comments – God bless

    • Keep the faith bro. So many people have been brought up in the wake of the great false church, infiltrated and polluted by Satan so long ago it can’t be remembered. They can’t even imagine they’ve been lied to all their lives, so they do everything they can to perpetuate the lies. It takes a certain mind-set to erase everything you thought you knew and read the bible again with a clear mind. I always suspected there was a problem with hell when I found out the Jews never believed it. Reading secular history books filled in the gaps and then I was able to understand the truth.
      If we can get even one reader here to try the same thing we have done the Lord a service, which is why we are here.
      Bless you too.

  81. To all and everyone let me finish on this verse to seal it down for Good-It is one of the most difficult passages for most to understand.

    “The Worm shall not die.
    Isa. 66:24 The WORM shall not die
    “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

    Jerusalem was engulfed in unquenchable fire in A.D. 70 when it burned so hot that the fire could not intentionally be put out.
    Commentary on Isaiah 66:24: Engulfed in Unquenchable Fire, Jerusalem at its Destruction was an Earthly Reflection of Hell.
    The fire from the Lord mentioned in 66 vs. 15-16 is shown here as unquenchable fire burning Jerusalem and Israel. Unquenchable fire is any fire that becomes so large and hot that it cannot be extinguished until it has burned itself out. A similar example of unquenchable fire is found in Jeremiah 17:27. In this verse, God threatens to burn Jerusalem with unquenchable fire as punishment for the disobedience of its people. This threat was fulfilled in 2 Kings 25:8-9 when the Babylonian army conquered and set fire to the city. Though the fire of v. 24 is also fulfilled in this event, this verse is a type that ultimately points to the war with Rome. In A.D. 70, Titus and his army also set fire to the city of Jerusalem. With the city again ablaze in unquenchable fire, Jerusalem once again became an earthly reflection of hell in the same way that post-exilic and post-war Jerusalem is depicted as an earthly shadow or dark reflection of heaven in Isaiah 60 and Isaiah 65.[21]
    Engulfed in unquenchable fire in A.D. 70, Jerusalem became an earthly symbol of hell.

    #2 Where the worm dieth not.
    The Worm feast –
    I hope that we can indeed strongly disagree on in issue and still be family. Never seen a family that didn’t on something.
    Job is clear I believe. Worm and dust go hand in hand (Gen. 3:19 “dust you are”, Job 17:14; 19:26; 21:26; 24:20; 25:26).
    Ps. 22:6 I.E I am but lowly flesh or dust.
    Deut. 28:39 corruption.
    Is. 14:11
    NKJV “Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you”
    Is. 41:14 ie. Israel according to the flesh.
    Is. 51:8 corruption. See Heb. 8:13
    Is. 66:24 The corruption is irreversible.
    Act. 12:23 Man in his own glory is but a worm feast.

    3. The Worm dieth not
    I strongly disagree with the teaching of eternal conscious condemnation. It is not a teaching of the Bible.
    For example the point in Isaiah 66:24 is the finality of the judgment. It is about the “corpses of the men”. The “worm” represents natural possibility. The man that simply “returns to the dust” for “you are dust”. That is what the Old Covenant is about. It was agreement with natural possibility. Isaiah 65-66 is about covenant change. In Christ we live in God possibility so that physical death becomes inconsequential.
    Matthew 5:29-30 is about the “whole BODY” being “cast into hell”. Whatever Hell is in the Gospels both the soul and the BODY are sent there. This should clue us in that our ideas about eternal conscious condemnation are flawed.
    John the Baptist was clear enough. The chaff is bunt up! The fire is unquenchable.
    Matthew 23 closely follows the teaching of John the Bap. The Hell judgment is for that generation (23-36).
    Unless you can put the body in hell you cannot put the soul in hell.

    Palisade – Hope you enjoyed it much as I did.

  82. # 4 – The bodies were dying and dead BUT the Worm did not die. Did you know we have skin worms in our bodies that will eat us up. Along with maggots, flies, Eagles, vulture’s. The birds were at the great feast just like Revelation said it would be.

    Matt 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    The End of the Jewish/Roman war took its toll on them all. This was in Jesus Generation of the Apostles and Christians who saw it.
    Jesus plainly told them this would happen in HIS generation would see it. He was telling the truth. Them were the LAST DAYS of the O.T covenant.
    The New took over. The Heavenly Jerusalem that is from Above. Is our Home NOW. Christ has broke open the Vail that was in the Temple. Praise God. We are the Kings and the Priesthood now. A very peculiar people indeed.

    Palisade

  83. I have a question, relative to this posting on hell . . .

    The Great White Throne Judgment:

    Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    (BLB/KJV)

    I understand what is meant by those who are “dead in Christ” … those who died the first death, having repented and putting their faith in Christ. I am still a bit muddled about the sequence of events, but my crude understanding is:

    — There are many trials and tribulations on earth such a quakes, droughts, war, pestulance;
    — Jesus descends from Heaven and raises up those who died with belief in Him, along with the living who believe;
    — There is the Great White Throne Judgment;

    I know there are the bowls and trumpets and a period where Jesus reigns for 1,000 years, but my point is that Jesus descends first taking with Him all who believe (dead and living) and the Great White Throne Judgment follows at some point.

    So, my questions are:
    (1) ” … the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:”
    How many books are there? It appears there is the book of life where names are written and the other books hold our words and deeds.

    (2) But for the grace of God we would not be saved, and we honor Christ through our belief and our faith (and following the commandments – I know there is disagreement here as to what that means, but that is not my issue here.) . . . If we are not written in the book of life we do not ascend to Heaven. Why then all the other books listing our deeds and words?

    (3) There has been talk among the many here that there isn’t a second chance to make things right with God after we die the first death where we shed the body. Did I hear this right? Our works can not buy our way into Heaven .., why then are all the books opened listing our works? Is it to shame? Is it to show us why we are not in the book of life and are to be cast into the lake of fire? Is everyone doomed (dead and living) who did not ascend with Jesus?

    Please feel free to correct me on the sequence of events –
    Dmcal – you did this for me once but I do not recall which post it was on.

    Also, just an FYI there is a “depressed” volcano in Ethiopia known as Erta Ale. There are a few in the world but this is the world’s biggest “lake of fire” – believed to be in the vicinity of where we all began in the Garden of Eden. It makes me wonder.
    There is a live webcam on this site: http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/erta_ale.html
    (They are actually still photos updated at intervals every few minutes.)

    Denise

    • you caught me on a bad day. I am marking your comment to look closer at it tomorrow

      • No worries, thanks, Marianne. I have belief and trust, and some times the mind gets overly inquisitive. And, even with all the trust and belief and faith, some times it is equally important to have right understanding.

    • I won’t say much about the book of life other than it is not a real book with paper and ink. To record the deeds of everyone that has ever live you would need an entire library. So it is a virtual book. In the mind of God. I’m sure He can access all the information He needs when the time for judgement arrives.
      As to the time line though, I think you are confusing the First resurrection when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised and the saved who are alive are changed into spirit beings. After the 1000 year reign of Christ, there is a second resurrection of everyone else who ever lived. At that time they will be judged by their works and the wicked and evil will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. The rest will have to accept Yahweh and His son Yeshuah and perhaps be baptized before they can receive eternal life. Many good people of other faiths may cling to their old religions and accept death in the Lake of Fire hoping they will go to their own versions of heaven. So be it. It will be their free choice. This is not a “second chance” at salvation. For these people it will be their first chance. Everyone deserves a first chance. Otherwise God would be an unfair God, not a just one.
      As for the location of the Lake of Fire, since the last judgement will be in Jerusalem the Lake of Fire will not be visible if it is as you suggest a real Lake of Fire. So there is a question of how billions of people will be transported to the lake. In trucks? By train? Helicopters (a good way to get them to drop into the fire)? Or will God just snap His fingers and transport them there in an instant. Or perhaps the Lake of Fire is just a vision given to John to represent the second death. Perhaps God will snap His fingers and the unrepentant will simply disappear… poof! All gone! If God is truly merciful, this may be true. That all remains to be seen.
      I hope this explains the order of things. Some will disagree on the details but God will sort that out in His own way.

      • Thanks, Jim. It is my understanding that some things in the Bible are literal and others are figurative. My curiosity / question mainly arises from the fact that several books are mentioned, including the Book of Life. And I wonder why there would be a book or books that apparently record our works (whatever form these books are in.)

        With Christ’s sacrifice, our works do not bring us salvation, only by the Grace of God are we saved. So, why does the Bible bring up a record of our works, (even if all the books are contained within God’s mind) why bring it up at all? And I wondered if it was to shame, or to show those who were not in the Book of Life, why their fate is not in Heaven, but in the lake of fire in the second death.

        Jim, you said, ” … there is a second resurrection of everyone else who ever lived. At that time they will be judged by their works …”
        So, you believe a person can be saved who died an unbeliever, they are given a second chance at the Great White Throne Judgment because of their works? Not through the Mercy of God? This is very confusing to me.

        I whole heartedly believe we have a merciful God. And, I also believe pure evil exists in many forms which will be thrown into the lake. We are fighting that evil today and in some ways it seems that evil is becoming stronger (if possible) and many times I pray for “Putting on the Full Armor of God” and carry a St. Michael “challenge coin” as I fought much evil as a police officer and carry that responsibility forward today in retirement.

        So simply, my question is really about works – With Christ’s sacrifice, our works do not bring us salvation, only by the Grace of God are we saved. So, why does the Bible (and you I think) bring up a record of our works at all? It is my mind wanting to understand, my heart doesn’t question.

        Personally, I believe that hell (my hell) would be feeling separate from God.

        Blessings –

        Denise

        • I believe a persons works, if they have never heard of Jesus, will earn them a first chance to know Him and believe He died for their sins.
          It is simple logic. The bible said Jesus died for the sins of the WORLD. That means everyone. Anyone who ever lived. So why would he die for the sins of the Buddhists and why would He bother resurrecting them to judge them, only to send each and every one to the second death? Why not just leave them dead? Do you think maybe God gets a kick out of tossing billions of confused people into a literal Lake of Fire? Otherwise, why bother? It could be to teach them a lesson. A lesson that lasts a minute and then they’re dead again. That makes no sense.
          Anyway, this is what I have learned from a book titled, “Mystery of the Ages.” It is big, biblical and free. Just Google it and get your free copy. It will enlighten you with what is hidden in the bible.
          Keep the faith.

          • Jim said:
            “I believe a persons works, if they have never heard of Jesus, will earn them a first chance to know Him and believe He died for their sins.”

            Again Jim, the above is based on your belief that everyone is entitled to salvation, which is false. The salvation of the world is in reference to all of those throughout history whom God chose, whose names were written in the book of life before the world began. There are people whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began.

            “The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come. (Rev.17:8)

            ===============================

            “Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

            What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

            It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

            One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

            ===============================

            God chose those whom he would save before the world began. And if you want to reject this truth by saying, “That’s not fair!” Then read the very last part of the scripture above and apply it to yourself.

    • Hello again Denise,

      Below is a summary of the chronological order of events:

      * Church period – still in progress (Mt.16:15)

      * Resurrection and catching away of the church (1 Thes.4:13-18, 1
      Cor.15:51-53)

      * The antichrist makes his seven year covenant, which initiates the seven
      year period (Dan.9:27)

      * Seals, trumpets and bowl judgments run through the entire seven years
      like birth pains.

      * Abomination set up in the middle of the seven years (Dan.9:27, Mt.24:15)

      * Christ returns to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom
      (Mt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

      * Beast and false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

      * Satan bound in the Abyss during Christ thousand year reign (Rev.20:1-3,
      7-10)

      * Christ’s thousand year reign (Rev.20:6)

      * Satan released for a short time at the end of the thousand years
      (Rev.20:3, 7)

      * Satan’s last rebellion (Rev.20:7-9)

      * Satan thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)

      * Great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-14)

      * New Heaven, New Earth, New Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22)

      =======================================

      Q: (1.a) ” … the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:”

      A: First of all, remember the rule of thumb that I mentioned before in regards to reading scripture: “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense. That being said, since the scripture says, the books were opened and another book was opened, there is no reason to interpret these other than literal books. To support that God does indeed work with literal books, I would draw your attention to the book we call the Bible. Furthermore, there is nothing in the scripture that would infer that the books were symbolic or virtual. It would be pure conjecture to arrive at that conclusion. To further support that the book of life is an actual book, it is mentioned in Psalm 69:28 by king David, in Dan.12:1 by the angel, by Paul in Phil.4:3 and mentioned five times in Rev.3:5, 13:8, 17:8, 20:12 and 21:27. When you have something mentioned so consistently as you have the book of life, then you can be assured that it is speaking of a literal book and not a symbolic or virtual one.

      Q: (1.b) How many books are there? It appears there is the book of life where names are written and the other books hold our words and deeds

      A: Since the word “Books” there is in the plural, it would be at least two or more. By the way, the world “Books” here is translated from the Greek Biblion which is were we get our word Bible from, which means papyrus roll.

      Q: (2) But for the grace of God we would not be saved, and we honor Christ through our belief and our faith (and following the commandments – I know there is disagreement here as to what that means, but that is not my issue here.) . . . If we are not written in the book of life we do not ascend to Heaven. Why then all the other books listing our deeds and words?

      A: I am assuming that your question stems from the great white throne judgment regarding the books being opened. This great white throne judgment (GWTJ) takes place at the end of the thousand years. The church and every other group that takes part in the first resurrection are not judged at this judgment and here’s why:

      “They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.”

      For those who belong to the first resurrection, which is every resurrection that takes place prior to and at the beginning of the thousand years, the second death which is the lake of fire, has no power over them. It is those mentioned in the last part of the scripture above who do not come to life until the thousand years are ended, which means that the second death has power over them and that because they will not have been worthy to share in the first resurrection. The resurrection and catching away of the church will take place prior to the opening of the fist seal, which begins God’s wrath. At that time the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected and then immediately after that, we who are still alive will be changed in a moment and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air where according to John 14:1-3 he will take us all back to the Father’s house (heaven). During that time all believers will stand before the Lord at the Bema seat (2 Cor.5:10) and will be judged, not according to sin, but for our works, either good or bad, which will result in gain of rewards or loss of reward. We cannot be judged for sin because it has already been paid for by Christ and forgiven for those who will have trusted in him for their salvation.

      On the hand, the GWTJ which takes place at the end of the thousand years, will include all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history, referred to as “the dead, great and small”. If you’ll notice in Rev.20:13, the spirits of the dead are coming out of death and Hades and will receive resurrected bodies as well, but not to life, but to suffer on-going, conscious, punishment in the lake of fire. Remember, Hades is that place where the spirit of the rich man, of the event of “the rich man and Lazarus,” was taken where he was in torment in flame. Therefore, those who are coming out of Hades are the unrighteous dead. As I said, the church is not judged here, but will have appeared before the Bema seat of Christ a thousand years earlier and will have already received our white robes, as well as our crowns and all the other promises for those who overcome. At the GWTJ, The dead are judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. They are not going to be judged for good works, but for every single sin and every idle word that each person will have committed and spoken. For the believer, all of their sins where laid on Christ, but for the unfaithful and those who rejected Christ, they will be accountable for their own sins.

      (Continued)

      • (Continued for Denise)

        Q: (3) There has been talk among the many here that there isn’t a second chance to make things right with God after we die the first death where we shed the body. Did I hear this right? Our works can not buy our way into Heaven .., why then are all the books opened listing our works? Is it to shame? Is it to show us why we are not in the book of life and are to be cast into the lake of fire? Is everyone doomed (dead and living) who did not ascend with Jesus?

        It is while every human being is alive that they have the opportunity for salvation:

        “See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. As has just been said:

        “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” (Heb.3:15)

        And

        “Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Heb.9:27-28)

        As the Scripture says, “Today, if you here his voice” this life is the time to have faith and be assured of salvation. After a person dies their record is sealed. If one had a second chance after death, then people could just live a sinful life and then repent after death. This live, here and now is the time for faith and the testing of our faith. One’s faith cannot be tested after death. For one, the wicked who die would immediately know the truth and wouldn’t need to have faith and that because angels would be taking them to Hades. I’m pretty positive that if an angel went to Hades where the people have been in torment in flame for millennia, would not hesitate to accept salvation if was being offered. Again regarding the books being opened, true believers are not judged at the GWTJ, for this judgment is for those who will have not been worthy to take part in the first resurrection. We are in the book of life, but it is only those unrighteous who are being judged at that the end of the thousand years. On a side note, there will most likely be those who will have died during the millennial period at this judgment as well, but that is just a guess on my part, as there is nothing written regarding them and that because they would have lived after the first resurrection and during the millennial period.

        Re: Also, just an FYI there is a “depressed” volcano in Ethiopia known as Erta Ale. There are a few in the world but this is the world’s biggest “lake of fire” – believed to be in the vicinity of where we all began in the Garden of Eden. It makes me wonder.

        Though the location of the Lake of fire is not revealed, it cannot be on the planet earth and that because, this present heaven and earth depart, pass away, at the end of the thousand years (Rev.20:11, 21:1) . Therefore, since the lake of fire is everlasting and this current heaven and earth are not, then the lake of fire must be located somewhere else.

        I hope this information is helpful Denise.

    • there are 2 books of life

      one from the OT, called the book of life Ex 32:33, Ps 56:8, Dan 12:1
      and the other from the NT, called tee Lamb’s book of life Rev 21:27

      as you know, we are saved by grace, but judged according to our works….so the works determine our rewards in heaven AFTER salvation

      there is something called the law of the gentiles….who have NOT heard the gospel.

      Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. Romans 2;14

      in this case, they are obeying god in their inner spirit, and are behaving the same as those who HAVE heard the gospel….even though they are not aware of who jesus is. there is a special dispensation for them…..they live according to the gospel without it being preached to them. they do not get saved after they die, in a second chance, they die in god’s mercy and there will be a place for them in heaven

      • OK, this makes a little more sense to me, and the “Book of Life” and “Lamb’s Book of Life” was also a little confusing.

        And, where God’s mercy comes in for those who have lived a righteous life, though they had not heard the Gospel.

        Thank you.

        • there could not be a lamb’s book of life in the OT, as he had not come yet….so the rules for them were a little different, but the faith in god’s mercy and forgiveness had to be there.

          • Hi Marianne, Denise,

            Actually, there is only one book of life. The reference to the “Lamb’s book of life” is just another designation for the book of life. Scripture never states that there are two individual books, but we are only reading into the scripture that there are two books because of the two different designations. Here is an example regarding this:

            “The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur”

            “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.”

            “The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

            In the verses above, the top two are referred to as “the fiery lake of burning sulfur and in the last verse it is referred to as “the lake of fire”. Using the example of there being two books of life because they are referred to by different designations, then we would also have to conclude that there are two lake’s of fire and that because they are referred to by slightly different names. Therefore, because of the differences in names, we are assuming that there are two books, when in fact they are the same book, just referred to differently.

            Book of life and Lamb’s book of life = the same book of life

          • Hi Marianne, Denise,

            Regarding there being two books of life, please consider the following:

            “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.” (Rev.13)

            “And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. (Rev.17)

            In the two scriptures above, one is from chapter 13 and the other from chapter 17, which are both referring to the same book, but with slightly different designations “book of life” and “Lamb’s book of life” but they are the same book. Also, as you can see from the scriptures above, it states that names were not written in the book of life from before the world began, which would also infer that all believer’s names were written in the book of life before the world began.

            • Regarding the issue of the two books of life, I would present the following as well:

              “I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yes, and I ask you, my true companion, help these women since they have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

              Now, we would have to agree that Paul and his companions would be those who are in believer’s in Christ. Notice in the scripture above that Paul refers to his co-workers whose names are written in the book of life. Being that Paul and his co-workers are in Christ, if there were two books, should Paul not have said, “the Lamb’s book of life?”
              I reiterate that they are the same book just referred to differently.

            • in OT, people of faith looked forward to the messiah

              in NT, they already had him

            • OK, dmcal, I can understand there being two references to the same book of life – what then are these “other books”?

              Rev. 20:12 ” … “and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: … ” (BLB/KJV)

              These other books do seem to be our recorded “works” –

              Rev. 20:12 cont. ” … and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

              Though, our works do not apply to our salvation, only Grace can do this. If I understood Marianne correctly, our “works” determine our place or rewards in Heaven, not that we get there.

              In the end, I am at peace. My fate is in God’s hands. He has my heart. I am more concerned about the here and now and how I can best be of service to our Lord, here and now.

              Meanwhile, as I study more, this seems like such a small detail but my mind has been coiled around these multiple “books.”

              • Hello again Denise,

                The fact that these people are coming are being resurrected out of Hades tells you that they are not the righteous, but the unrighteous. The other books that are opened contain all of their works or acts of sin or in the flesh and is not speaking about works as those done by Christian’s in order to glorify God. Here are some comparisons of the scripture in question:

                New International Version
                And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

                New Living Translation
                I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books.

                English Standard Version
                And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

                Berean Study Bible
                And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books.

                Berean Literal Bible
                And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the one of life. And the dead were judged out of the things having been written in the books, according to their deeds.

                New American Standard Bible
                And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

                ============================

                Only the KJV and a couple of other translations use the words “according to their works” where the other translations have it “according to what they had done or according to their deeds” which is referring to their sins committed in life. When you look at the word “Works” as translated in the KJV, it is misleading you to think of our “good works” done in Christ, but that is not the case. Those in Christ are not judged here at the GWTJ. Remember, all sin must be accounted for. For the person who is in Christ, Jesus was held accountable for all of our sins. For those who will have rejected Christ and will have died in that state, they will be held accountable for their own sins, which is what the GWTJ is all about. This will be a judgment for the unrighteous dead at the end of the thousand years.

                I hope that this clears it up a little more. If you have any questions, feel free to ask and I will supply the scripture and any information that is helpful.

  84. Dear Sister Denise – You said – (1) ” … the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:”
    How many books are there? It appears there is the book of life where names are written and the other books hold our words and deeds.
    1. Well Denise that is OK to say if people would understand it right.
    2. But I would just say its – They are just Sinners and Saints.
    3. Once Christ has Excepted you as a Daughter to HIM. You passed from Death unto Life eternal. Same book but 2 Characters of mankind.

    Saying their is 2 books of life is a metaphor. Lambs book of life and satans book of death in one book I could say. One is for the Believers that have the Character of Christ and have Overcome satan’s Character.

    I know it gets quite confusing some times. But you got to look at the simplicity of it all. Their are only 2 Seeds = Satan’s seed are Christ seed. Seed means WORD. God is the True Word #1 = Satan is the counterfeit word #2. When you come out of the Book of Death and get Salvation then you are automatically in the “Lambs Book of Life.” Its just ONE BOOK but divided by two seeds. Our I could say in Reality. Its a Book with two different Gods you can serve either one.
    Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby “ye are sealed” unto the “day of redemption”.

    #1. For every human born a life was given to them. That is the “””Book of Life””” – God knows everyone of them. Yet in a fallen conditions by Adam and has to have a NEW BIRTH which is Eternal life which is a blessed life as well. Read Duet. 28 and 29 – It tells you very plain the Characters of God and satan. The Blessing of life and the curses of being dead to false gods.

    #2 – The Lord also knows everyone that has came to HIM “The Lamb of God” for Salvation. – their names were written in Heaven.

    Please read these Scriptures below.

    Luke 10:18 – And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    Luke 10:19 – Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over “all the power of the enemy”: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

    Luke 10:20 -Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the “spirits” are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
    a. Their are only 2 main Spirits. Gods or satans. Life or Death.

    Luke 10:21- In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou “”hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,”” and hast “”revealed them unto babes””: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    Luke 10:22 – All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will “reveal him”.
    a. You have been revealed to Jesus Christ – you in the Lambs book of Life.
    b. Which just happens to be Eternal life. Just keep reading.

    Luke 10:23 – And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see”:

    Luke 10:24 – For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
    a. ONLY 2 kinds of Characters in mankind.

    LUKE 10:25 – And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, “”””what shall I do to inherit ETERNAL LIFE”””?
    a. Now here is a Jewish Lawyer and educated man. Tempting Christ.
    b. He was tempting Christ – that is not a good thing to ever do.

    ETERNAL defined – 166 aionios from 165;
    166 — eternal – everlasting — for ever
    1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be Eternal
    2) without beginning
    3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
    4) meaning continued duration
    165 – an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity, for ever
    2) the worlds, universe
    3) period of time, age, a human lifetime
    Rev. 10:6 God came down. And Time was no more for the Believers. They understood that the Lamb of God gave them Eternal life.
    So this also tells you their is 1. Eternal and 2. Mortal-In ONE Book and 2 lifestyes. Satan and Jesus they both in the same book. Book of LIFE and DEATH = That is why it is called the 2nd. DEATH for satan’ seed.
    The book has two sides to it. Two gods.

    LUKE 10:26- He said unto him, “”What is written in the law?”” how readest thou?

    LUKE 10:27- And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
    a. This is how you get you Name in the Book of the Lambs book of life. Which is Eternal life.

    LUKE 10:28- And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt “LIVE”.
    LIVE defined = 2198 zao a primary verb;
    1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)
    2) to enjoy real life i.e. to “have true life and worthy of the “” name”” — active, blessed, “”ENDLESS””” in the “”kingdom of God””
    3) to live pass normal life, in the manner of the living and acting; “””of MORTALS or CHARACTER “””
    5) metaph. to be in full vigour; to be fresh, strong, efficient, as adj. active, powerful, efficacious

    I write this with reverence in my Heart to you Sister Denise. Just trying to help you some if I can. Lord bless you in your life.

    Palisade.

    • Thank you for your words. The scriptural references are important to me as are hearing another’s insight, in their own words. I’ve walked with God since I can remember (age 3 ish) even though the family I grew up in did not attend any church. Long story, but a beautiful one.

      Though my heart has no questions, my mind is wanting to understand on a more, deeper, level at this point in my life. I’ve found these boards of Marianne’s to be rich in wisdom and insight – even when people here disagree.

  85. Dear Marianne –
    Jh. 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are “dead”.

    JOHN 6:50- This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and “not die”.

    JOHN 6:51- I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, “he shall live for ever:” and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the “life” of the world.

    JOHN 6:52- The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    JOHN 6:53- Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, “”””Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man,”””” and drink his blood, “”””ye have “”no life”” in you”””””” Read Jh. 6:49 again above. DEAD

    JOHN 6:54- Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, “”hath eternal life;””” and I will raise him up at the last day.
    a. Jesus did not not say that to sinners.
    b. You cannot be Eternal and Dead at the same time. Dead also means you were always DEAD – You excepted Satan’s spirit to take you over and rapture you into his hell on earth.

    JOHN 6:55- For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

    JOHN 6:56- He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, “dwelleth” in me, and I in him.

    JOHN 6:57- As the living Father hath sent me, and I “”live”” by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall “”live”” by me.

    JOHN 6:58- This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, “”and are dead””: he that eateth of this bread shall “””live for ever””””.

    JOHN 6:59- These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

    So we got the words DEAD, LIVE, LIFE, ETERNAL, LIVE FOREVER, NOT DIE,

    599 apothnesko from 575 and 2348;
    Dead — be dead — perish —
    1a) of the natural death of man
    1b) of the violent death of man or animals
    1c) to perish by means of something
    1d) of trees which dry up, of seeds which rot when planted
    2a) “””of eternal death””, to be subject “to eternal misery”””
    2b) of mortal death
    Question – It says eternal death – then it says eternal misery.
    If you are in eternal death – then how “”could his spirit be alive”” for eternity “”of misery””. It would have to be Eternal by Jesus Christ and a sinner is a MORTAL man. He does not have ETERNAL life.
    So Mr. Strong does not understand what he is saying.

    575 – apo
    1) of separation
    1c) of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the “””two is destroyed””
    1d) of “”a state of separation of distance or time””
    Yea Rev. 10:6 Time expires when you have Eternal life.

    2348
    — be dead– die– dead man
    — to die, to be dead; metaphorically to be spiritually dead
    Question – If you dead – you are spiritually dead. You would still have to be eternal to live in misery for eternity.

    This is why I keep telling people – Jesus Christ is the only FORM of Eternal LIFE. Their is no other forms of Eternal life. But only “”Eternal Death”” which “”is not”” ETERNAL LIFE.
    So if the word DEATH means DEATH – That means it not Alive anymore its DEAD.

    So all the words above are not mentioning maggots. Maggots just eat up your flesh man. The Soul that sinneth that soul shall die.
    So the soul has died – gone, dead, maggots do not eat the soul.
    I know you was probably making a funny. But this is pretty serious Doctrine.

    God bless you all. I have tried to tell every worthy place where eternal life of a sinner might be true. I cannot find them. I could keep going. All we have to do is read Jesus words. Its so simple – yet the man that came to Jesus to tempt him. I wonder where he is today.
    If Christians would just sit down and look up the simple little words like I have put before you. You would have to come to the same conclusion I would sure think.

    Palisade.

  86. Rev. 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Mystery defined
    3466 – from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth)

    AV — mystery
    1) hidden thing, secret, mystery; generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to “”ordinary mortals””
    2) a hidden or secret thing, “”not obvious to the understanding””
    3) a hidden purpose or counsel; “”secret will””: of men; of God: “the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, “”which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly””
    4) in rabbinic writings, it denotes the “”mystic or hidden sense:”” of an OT saying, of an image or form seen in a vision, of a dream

    Palisade

    • Hi Beacon,

      The Mystery that is to be revealed is that, after the sounding of the seventh trumpet, it leads into the seven last plagues of wrath, the bowl judgments, bringing God’s wrath to its completion and the revealing the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. The return of Christ is the Mystery that is to be revealed.

  87. Dear Dmcal – I understand what you are saying brother. But the Mystery is more than what you think. Before He Comes you had better Know the mystery of that Coming.

    Rom. 16:25 ¶ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    Rom. 16:26- But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

    Eph. 3: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
    Eph. 3:4- Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ )

    Here is the bottom line:
    26 † Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

    Col. 1:27- To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of “”this mystery”” among the Gentiles; “”which is Christ in you””, the hope of glory:

    Col. 1:28 – Whom we preach, “”warning every man””, and “”teaching every man in all wisdom””; that we may present every man “”perfect in Christ Jesus:””

    To me this is more important than what you are talking about. To many people are just Looking for His ADVENT at the End of Time. And forgetting about the ADVENT of the Mystery of the NEW BIRTH = Christ already IN YOU.

    I hear people “”all the time”” saying oh when HE comes out of the sky I will have it made then. It will be to late then if you do not know the Mystery of the New Birth before that. If NOT you would be lost .

    But Yes I already believe HE has Come in Revelation 10:7 — Rev. 11: 15 and many other place in the N.T prove it. He is already reigning in His Kingdom of God NOW. Which many call the Millennium. Its because they do not understand the Mystery of Gods New Covenant by their NEW BIRTH CREATION: I hope you understand what I am saying.

    Jesus is the Kingdom of God – He is already reigning in our hearts NOW. I ain’t putting everything in ONE BAG of coming in the Clouds. Cause I know what that means.

    Their are 3 main Coming of Christ. Come 2064 Rev. 1:7 to gather the people — Come down = Rev. 10:1-6 Born again – from time to Eternal – you already in Christ and then the Parousia = He is already come and present in His people. God was always with His people. And he Came down to them many times in the O.T as well as N.T. To deliver them out of the chaos.

    But today everybody is just waiting to get ” Salvation ” they think. When He comes in the so called 2nd. advent. Jesus Christ came to Die and Rise – and came back the 2nd. Time to “”Fill his Disciples”” with the precious Holy Ghost which was their Millennium. They received the Same “”Fire of God”” that Jesus Christ had in HIM recorded in the book of Acts.
    Then again Christ came back to “fulfill the complete Judgment” of the 490 years upon Israel and the Jews in the last 3-1/2 years of the Rome/Israel war that ended in 70 A.D

    Same in Noah’s Day. The Same in Moses Day. Hey what happened their. Salvation came to them with great signs and wonders yet 406 thousand Jews Carcus laid in the Wilderness. They had No faith and Jesus said in the post above. They everyone were DEAD. They did not have any faith at all. The Loved Egypt more that getting to the Promise land. And same in every AGE that every ended. And their were many of them. Today Preachers are preaching a “”Catholic message for in the future”” And this generation as Jesus taught His disciples is NOW in the same situation.

    I know you probably do not want to talk to me anymore and maybe everybody else included. But Jesus Message and Johns Message and Moses Message and Noah’s Message and Jeremiahs Message and Elijah’s Message against the Whore of Jezebel and the falling of Judah and the 10 tribes as well. Then GOD – Jesus Came in a Flesh body and died and Rose. And the people did the same thing except for the Chosen of God. That is why Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 70 A.D just Like Jesus told HIS disciples – That was their Generation positively.

    The same pattern is with us today. Like every other age. They get overcome by the “”Darkness of satans”” armies at the End of their age. And they Faint. Because they usely follow the multitudes that tells them lies.

    God bless you dmcal . you a good man and know what you believe as well. I use to believe just like you. Doctrine is not the ultimate factor in being Born again. Its Love, And faith, and Mercy. I do my best with that as well. I’m always trying to talk to as many people as I can. Some really listen. most don’t.
    Like Paul I did not chose this way of believing. God chose it for me. Yes I’m an outcast to most but look at the prophets, and Jesus Himself and His followers when they were alive not go on. Jesus followers were hated even. Still today the same thing. yet they would lay down their lives for Christ at any moment.
    So Doctrine is not the ultimate weapon. But Loving your Brothers and Sister’s enough to at least tell them what you believe is absolute truth.

    out – Palisade. Sorry its to long I know.

  88. “To me this is more important than what you are talking about. To many people are just Looking for His ADVENT at the End of Time. And forgetting about the ADVENT of the Mystery of the NEW BIRTH = Christ already IN YOU. ”

    Well, I am aware of that, but I was only responding to what you wrote regarding the Mystery that the angel spoke of which is Christ being revealed some time after the seventh bowl had been poured out. That was the topic that the angel was speaking about and not about the new birth, but the literal return of Christ to end the age as being that Mystery.

  89. To dmcal and anyone who thinks the book of life is a literal book.
    OK, by the time the millennium is over there will have been maybe 25-30 billion people who have ever lived. So even with a large paper size and a small font, it seems that a persons lifetime of works may barely fit on a single page. That would mean the book would consist of maybe 30 BILLION pages. How many miles high might that be? If it is on thin 20lb bond, it would be 2,367.4 miles high. Exactly how would you bind such a book so that it could be opened and read? Plastic comb? Perfect binding? Maybe a giant 3-hole binder?
    Face it, it can’t be an actual book. It is called a book so Old Testament readers could relate to it.
    If the bible were written today it would be a .pdf file on a flash drive in a laptop.
    Face it, it is not a book, it is a record. The record is kept in a safe place… the mind of God. Do you really think He would have to write stuff down in order to remember it?
    You need to use a little common sense here people.

    • god said it

      so it is true

      he can handle infinite challenges

      sorry your brain cannot understand

      I still think you work for the government

      • Hi Marianne,

        If you there was a like button on that post, I’d press it. As I said to Jim before, when you see something being used consistently, then you can believe what it says. That the book of life is mentioned as being a book in Revelation and as a book in all the other scriptures that I provided, then we be sure that is an actual book. To say otherwise is to not believe that scriptures and is just assumption based on human thinking. The scripture is clear that there are names written in the book of life and is not a metaphor for God’s memory.

    • Jim, you, and probably most people here, have “studied” the Bible more than I have. We are all in various states of maturity with our Lord. But, I too, see you only in a literal and lineal world.

      It is like living in only one dimension in our three dimensional world on earth. And we live out our three dimensional world here in what is more than likely a nine dimensional world, or our three out of nine billion. God’s world (dimension) is infinite. There are so many states, realities, possibilities, dimensions that we can not even begin to imagine with our limited brains.

      So, while you ponder whether pizza is delivered in Heaven, or whether we will have the Internet there – if I can offer any perspective, it would be to pause, breathe, and be.

      “Be still, and know that I am God.” Psalm 46:10

      • You do realize I, like the Jews, don’t believe anyone goes to heaven (or hell) when they die. The comment was sarcastic. The reason no one really knows what heaven is like is because the bible teaches it is only for those who came from there. So what it looks like is none of our business, so it is not in the bible.

  90. Dear Jim:
    Yes Jim i agree with you on that one. Jesus is the Book . I dont believe their is a literal book up in heaven either. glad you mentioned that. But it is called a book by a “” Metaphor “” what else could John write down but a Book of life and Lambs book of life. He had to write down something that people could acquaint we. amen

    God bless Palisade

  91. Dmcal – Christ being revealed some time after the seventh bowl had been poured out. That was the topic that the angel was speaking about and not about the new birth, but the literal return of Christ to end the age as being that Mystery.

    Sorry brother:
    Hey I have been so into the Eternal burning lake of fire lately. It’s hard to change from one great subject to another but I will get back with you. I have notes written down etc. that I will have to refresh my mind a little. So we can try and get into it. ok.

    Palisade.

  92. I think Metaphor’s have to be in the Bible or you would never understand the bible. I just looked up the word Metaphor yesterday to actually read again what a Metaphor was. Before I even read these comments of today.

    When Jesus said eat of my flesh and drink of my blood. Are you going to take that Literal. The Bible is full of metaphors. Metaphors are all in the Bible – the Jews took that literal. Are you a part of them. You must be.

    If I said hey Big daddy come over here. Who am I talking to. You do not know cause it could be any man. This is why we read the whole Bible instead of just dabbling in a few verses that you have grown up in. And never changing. The WORD EXPLAINS WORD if you read it enough and study on it and think about it and pray about it. If their is a question their has to be a right answer by Gods Will.

    All the verses I sent you people just above. How many even really thought about the metaphors that Strongs put up. He has to to understand it as well. Why even look up a word for it meaning.

    READ below again just on the word Mystery:
    AV — mystery
    1) hidden thing, secret, mystery; generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to “”ordinary mortals””
    2) a hidden or secret thing, “”not obvious to the understanding””
    3) a hidden purpose or counsel; “”secret will””: of men; of God: “the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, “”which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly””
    4) in rabbinic writings, it denotes the “”mystic or hidden sense:”” of an OT saying, of an image or form seen in a vision, of a dream

    I think that the word Mystery is pretty awesome revelation of what a mystery really is. But as usual nothing ever comes back to me. This is why most do not understand the Bible period.

    a hidden or secret thing, “”not obvious to the understanding””

    a hidden purpose or counsel; “”secret will””: of men; of God: “the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, “”which are “”hidden from ungodly and wicked men”” but plain to the godly””

    Why does the N.T always talking about Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its a Mystery still in this day.

    P.S read it all literally and you are sure to not understand “”Spiritual Mystery’s””.

    It takes many years of Marriage to really understand the hidden man or woman in your life that you love. To become just ONE UNIT of the same.

    Palisade

    • i understand metaphors are in the bible but not everything is a metaphor

      have to look at context

      • Context doesn’t always help.
        Sometimes you have to use logic and common sense.
        A 2,300 mile thick book is not logical. An iPad would work with an eBook, so lets go with that if you want literal. Don’t you thing God keeps up with technology? So if you really need a physical book, there you go.
        The same idea applies to prophetic interpretation. If your scenario seems too impossible or impractical, then it is probably wrong. If it is based solely on conspiracy theories, then it is probably wrong.
        Unfortunately, few people use common sense when it comes to the bible.

        • well your common sense is not all that great

          you still cannot explain a change in position of the moon or the object in the sky…a weather balloon? you call that logic??

          you are measuring in human terms, not divine terms.

          bible did not say the book was 2300 miles high…. you did

    • Beacon said:
      “Why does the N.T always talking about Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its a Mystery still in this day”

      It is not a mystery to me and not a mystery to a lot of other expositors who can discern between the literal and the symbolic, which is pretty easy to do. Regarding Revelation, it is information that we can know and that God wanted us to know as can be seen from the following:

      “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

      In the scripture above, notice that it says that God gave this Revelation to Christ to show his servants (all believers) what must soon take place, which demonstrates that the “what must soon take place” are events. And those events are the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are not symbolisms, but literal events of wrath.

  93. If God knows “every hair” on “every person” HE has created. I would say he knows us all. To think the “Book of life” is literal is ludicrous. Somebody needs a “metaphor” –

    Palisade

    • Maybe He’s put all the books on flash drives. 🙂

      Seriously though, I had brought up the books because there had previously been much talk on one of these boards about one’s works, and how our works can not make our way to salvation, only through our Lord’s Grace.

      And, I was confused before where the Bible mentions the Book of LIfe, and “other books” – I was asking for some clarity on these “other books” that seem to keep track of everything ever said or done.

      Here on earth in our limited dimensions, we can only know “books” to be ink on paper bound by covers. Who knows what they might actually look like or be.

      What I am sure of, and what matters most to me, is that God has my heart and I am in His hands.

    • Ditto…

    • Regardless, that is by your assumption. Scripture states multiple times the book of life as being a book. Therefore, it is only by assumption that you are claiming that it is not a literal book. That fact that king David, Paul and John and others refer to it as a book, then I’ll stick with it as being a book.

  94. Just for the record. The Bible is the “Book of life” and “Book of death” if you have to have a “literal Book” to read it from then its called the BIBLE. This is what you are going to be Judged by. Jesus knows HIS own self – WORD and HE KNOWS your life as well. ALREADY – because He is Alpha and Omega. You not going to stand in a line to a cement throne and wait like all the pictures show. That is carnal minded men painting that. That is superstition to say it quiet frankly. Just read it all over the walls and ceilings of the Catholic church. You can then know where it came from.

    The Spirit of God – literally wrote the Bible so literal men etc. could read about His Spirit of life and the Carnal Spirit of death. Then you chose where you going to live. Death or Life for eternity.

    1. Next we will be saying we going to walk on paved cement, and then build a house of wood in the country or town.
    2. Also we will build literal golden streets for our wood houses .
    3. Maybe God will let us have a Car to drive as well.
    4. Yea and we will still eat steaks and mash potatoes.
    5. Many think the White Throne Judgement is made of Cement.
    6. Many think the New Jerusalem is a Brick or stone building coming down again to worship in.
    7. How carnal can we get in Christianity today. answer real carnal.
    8. These are all pagan superstitions, ole wives fables, and pagan in thought.
    9. O Lord open our eyes and let the Spirit of God flow through your Bride.
    10. I will not have to kill a maggot or have a eternal maggot living in my body for Eternity to eat me away either.
    11. My flesh body will decay and vanish into dust, But I have a NEW ONE to take its place where the maggot cannot eat or destroy. Thank you Jesus for a Eternal body that cannot never die or be abused anymore.
    Palisade

    • Beacon said:
      “You not going to stand in a line to a cement throne and wait like all the pictures show. ”

      Scripture says:
      “Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne”

      So, whether it is cement, which I doubt very much, whatever the foundation is made of is irrelevant. The fact is that, according to the scripture, the unrighteous dead, great and small will stand before the great white throne for judgment. To note believe this is to simply ignore the word of God and replace it with an allegorical interpretation.

      Beacon said:
      “Just for the record. The Bible is the “Book of life” and “Book of death”

      Scripture says:
      “But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

      “and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

      “He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life,”

      “And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,”

      “All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

      “And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

      As you can see, the reference is made over and over again of literal names being written in a literal book. For those who overcome, he will not blot out or erase their name from that book of life. And scripture demonstrates that the names of those whom God chose, their names were written in the book of life before the world began and there were names that were not written in it before the world began. So yes, the book of life is a literal book (regardless of its makeup) which contains the names of the saved throughout all of history. The Bible is not the book of life and does not contain the names of the saved, but it is the word of God.

      Beacon said:
      “Just read it all over the walls and ceilings of the Catholic church. You can then know where it came from”

      I just listed the scriptures above and therefore, it was not invented by the RCC, but comes from the word of God.

      Beacon said:
      “Many think the New Jerusalem is a Brick or stone building coming down again to worship in.”

      Scripture says:

      *I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband

      * Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them

      * It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal

      * It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates.

      * The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate made of a single pearl

      * He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 1400 miles in length, and as wide and high as it is long

      * The angel measured the wall using human measurement, and it was 200 feet thick.

      * The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass

      * The foundations of the city walls were decorated with every kind of precious stone

      * The great street of the city was of gold, as pure as transparent glass.

      So yes Beacon, the New Jerusalem is going to literally come down from God out of heaven, just as the scripture above states. The above is a summary of the characteristics of the New Jerusalem which will appear after this current heaven and earth have passed away and when the new heaven and new earth are created.

      Beacon said:
      “These are all pagan superstitions, ole wives fables, and pagan in thought”

      How can they be superstitions and old wives tales when they are all listed above from scripture? They become those things only if you circumvent and distort the word of God.

      Beacon said:
      “My flesh body will decay and vanish into dust, But I have a NEW ONE to take its place where the maggot cannot eat or destroy”

      Scripture says:
      “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”

      “But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

      Jesus bodily resurrection is a guarantee that all believers will be rise bodily as he did. The word “anastasis” translated as “Resurrection” is as follows:

      ===========================

      anástasis (from 303 /aná, “up, again” and 2476 /hístēmi, “to stand”) – literally, “stand up” (or “stand again”), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

      Christ’s physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

      [386 /anástasis (“resurrection”) refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

      ===========================

      So you see, resurrection always refers to the physical body being regenerated from the dust of the earth, which will be a heavenly upgrade. For this body that was sown decays, but will be raised in a body that will not decay, a body that was sown in disgrace, that is of the sinful nature, but will be raise a glorified body. And this body that was sown being weak, will be raised in power.

  95. IF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE COULD LEARN WHAT I KNOW OF THE FIERCE HATRED OF THE PRIESTS OF ROME AGAINST OUR INSTITUTIONS, OUR SCHOOLS, OUR MOST SACRED RIGHTS, AND OUR SO DEARLY BOUGHT LIBERTIES, THEY WOULD DRIVE THEM OUT AS TRAITORS!”
    ~ Abraham Lincoln

  96. Bro. Dmcal – You know we are probably never going to agree. I believe me and you have discussed these scriptures more than once. Being so literal is not good. God is a Spirit you must worship Him in Spirit and Truth. It just becomes a fighting match and unless you or me change we ain’t going to get no where discussing scriptures. Hey I care for you brother. But we not on the same page. The disciples were all carnal for 3 years or better walking with HIM. But when they got the Fire of Revelation IN THEM they said let us go and get into the Word. The Word is GOD St. John first few scriptures say it. So how could we ever walk together in unity. You are a literal-ist and I am a Spirit-ualist. Let us rest in peace for awhile. Ok. You are welcome to dissect my post and me yours ok. I think I will just my things and you can write your things.

    God Bless you Brother. PS I did read ALL you articles though. You got plenty of people on your side. I got very few on my side. And most of this forum here believes just like you do. But if we do not Have the Lord living in us. It don’t make no difference does it. Love is the greatest gift of all. I hope we can just agree on that one. How about it Brother.

    • “Hey I care for you brother”

      Sadly, what you are not understanding is that by your spiritualizing everything, you are preaching another gospel and believing in another Lord, which unfortunately makes you not my brother. Do you actually think that with your beliefs that you are also going inherit the kingdom of God when you deliberately spiritualize/distort scripture, which is meant to be taken just as it is written?

      There are truths in scripture that are eternal life threatening and not believing in the bodily resurrection is one of them nor the return of Christ to remove the church prior to his wrath. Another would be those who are continuing to attempt to gain salvation by adding their own works opposed to completely trusting in the Lord’s sacrifice for their salvation. Another would be the belief that Paul is not a true apostle of God and to believe that his writings are not scripture. Another would be to add to or take away from the words of the prophesies contained in the book of Revelation, which is what you are doing by spiritualizing them. By doing so, you take away the true meaning of what God is conveying in his word and even worse, you teach others the same and will be held accountable. A well known teacher teaches that the book of Revelation falls under the banner of hyperbole, that is, it is exaggerated and not to be taken literally. I would definitely say that this would constitute taking away from the prophesies of that book and you are believing and doing the same thing.

      If you truly want to be in Christ, stop spiritualizing scripture and believe what it says. The only time that scripture should be interpreted symbolically is when it is obvious, e.g. a woman clothed with the sun, with moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars, an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten crowns. These are perfect examples of symbolism, which is representing the literal. But to symbolize everything without it being required by the context is to distort the word of God and that is what are doing. You may think that you have the truth now, but you will find out that you do not, which is the purpose of my contending with you for the truth. You can go on as you have been, but when one day you see on the news, a political leader make a seven year covenant with Israel and Islam, then at that moment you will know that you were wrong, as that event will initiate that last seven years of Daniel’s prophecy. Following that, the red horse will come out and take peace from the whole earth so that men slay each other. Following that will be the third seal, the black horse which is literal famine. And the fourth seal will be a culmination of the previous seals resulting in a fourth of that immediate population being killed. Based on the current population of 7 billion, a fourth would be 1.7 billion fatalities. Don’t take my word for it or even respond back, but just take note of those things that I just mentioned and watch. That will be your proof.

      If you want to belong to the true Lord and have the true gospel and truly be my brother, then repent and confess those false beliefs and you will be forgiven and stop following the false teachings of men. Read the word of God and take it at face value and stop distorting it.

  97. beacon,
    Don’t be intimidated by dmcal a bit. He speaks of false beliefs, yet he believes in hell, and that the Ten Commandments are voided by the sacrifice of Jesus. Two big falsities.
    Then the entire 70th week of Daniel and the covenant (treaty) between Israel and whoever, brokered by the Antichrist who soon after takes over the entire world and puts a bank chip into 8 billion people. Yeah, right. It was a novel. Get over it.
    While he has a detailed response to everything everyone says, they are based on misinterpretations, while he blatantly ignores hundreds of crystal clear scriptures to the contrary.
    So I say let him wait – until he finally realizes his prophecy simply isn’t going to happen. Not the way he expects. Whether he finally recognizes the real prophecy unfolding or simply remains stiff-necked until Christ returns remains to be seen.
    So hang in there. After all the true church is very small, definitely not the mainstream majority, so being outnumbered is a good thing.
    The truth is we have nothing to worry about.

    • Jim said:
      “brokered by the Antichrist who soon after takes over the entire world and puts a bank chip into 8 billion people. Yeah, right. It was a novel. Get over it.”

      I’m afraid that your ribbing is in vain Jim. Take a look at this BBC Newscast from this last January. The very fact that this technology even exists is a testament to the truth and accuracy of God’s word, although, I am sure that after watching it, you will scramble to find some way of distorting or circumventing it. So click on the link below if you dare. And specifically pay attention to the part where he says that “it can even be used to buy food at the café.”

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      • dmcal,
        Just because a technology exists does not prove the bible says it will be used in prophecy. The chip has been out for years and its forerunner, the bar code has been available for quite a while.
        Technology aside, your interpretation assumes there will be a New World Order, led by the Antichrist. But a world dictator, especially one who “comes in peaceably” is not possible in today’s world. Even a powerful country like the US couldn’t do it with war. And just try to get all the banks to combine and to get every country to convert to a cashless society based on a new world-wide monetary standard.That is something that would have to be forced upon the world, and a single person could never get it done. It is pure fantasy.
        I relate it to the theory that there will be a pole shift and the worlds tectonic plates will rotate the entire crust of the earth 180 degrees so the north pole is at the south and vice-versa. People read a bible verse and assume this could actually happen, knowing nothing of course about geology. Same as Nibiru.
        So, all we can do is wait to see if someone brokers a Mideast peace treaty. Probably John Kerry helping create a Palestinian state. But that would be permanent and not just for 7 years. So that won’t be it. Maybe between Israel and Egypt, but their 30-year old treaty I still in effect. Maybe between Iran and Israel? Not likely.
        Well, I just can’t figure how it will go down. There isn’t anything in the news relating to a treaty. Maybe it will come as a surprise. I guess that’s what you are counting on.
        There is little logic in believing in something that is simply not possible, just because it seems to say so in the bible.
        But most people are illogical in their thinking when it comes to the bible.
        These people are all in for a big surprise in the near future.

        • Jim unbelievably and expectably said:
          “dmcal, Just because a technology exists does not prove the bible says it will be used in prophecy. The chip has been out for years and its forerunner, the bar code has been available for quite a while.”

          Oh no, you are so correct! Just because it was prophesied 1900 years ago that a mark would go in the right hand or forehead and that without it no one would be able to buy or sell and the fact we now have that electronic credit and debit technology and where now people are being implanted with an RFID chips under the skin of the hand, Oh, that can’t have anything to do with the prophesy! Of course your going to say that Jim, you have to, and that because it destroys your belief system. That is the course of action that you and amil’s always take, if it goes against what scripture proclaims, then you have to distort or circumvent it.

          As I said, the very fact that this technology exists exactly the way that prophecy foretells, it is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God’s word. Since you do not even believe it or understand it when it is staring you right in the face, you will probably be one of those who will have no problem getting your own implant by sticking to your false teaching which denies that it is the mark is meant to be taken literally.

          Jim said:
          “The chip has been out for years and its forerunner, the bar code has been available for quite a while.”

          Of course it has been out for years! All of this technology, the ATM’s, UPC, POS, chip implants and all of the new electronic devices, they all had to evolve in preparation for the mark. The system couldn’t have just popped up over night. It had to evolve and it will continue to evolve until that man of lawlessness comes and he makes that mark the only valid way of buying and selling, which will use the same system that is already set up via electronic crediting and debiting.

          Jim said:
          “And just try to get all the banks to combine and to get every country to convert to a cashless society based on a new world-wide monetary standard. That is something that would have to be forced upon the world, and a single person could never get it done. It is pure fantasy.

          Reeeealy? You mean just like all of the countries world-wide that have gone to electronic crediting and debiting via cards? It doesn’t seem that they had a problem doing that. Why do you think everyone is continuing to push for electronic payments and are continuing to phase out paper remittance? Because it is the on-going effort to make crediting and debiting electronic. You are also forgetting that, this man that is coming is going to be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God and will have the miracles, signs and wonders which will be performed by the false prophet in order to give him credibility of his claim. That being said, receiving the mark will not be a forced issue, but will be willfully excepted by the inhabitants of the earth. The other reason that they will receive it is because without it, they won’t be able to pay their bills, buy food or gas, or anything else.

          Denmark is already set to go completely cashless in 2016, except for a few stipulations, with the other Scandinavian countries to follow, with Europe, Asia and the rest of the world to follow as well. It is coming! And now that people are actually having RFID chips implanted under the skin of the hand, this technology will also continue to evolve leading up to that beasts reign and his mark.

          Jim said:
          “These people are all in for a big surprise in the near future.”

          Yeah and you’re one of them! God gave us his word so that we could have understanding. Therefore, when scripture says that the ruler is going to make a seven year covenant, then you can bet it will be for seven years. This making of this seven year covenant will definitely be with Israel and most likely with Islam, because it is the temple mount that is the issue here. Once this takes place, we know that 3 1/2 years later he is going to cause the offerings and sacrifices to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place within the coming temple, which he will make possible for them to build.

          You had better open your eyes and let go of these false teachings that you and Beacon cling to, because it is coming quickly and when you see that man make his seven year covenant, then you will know that you are officially living in that last seven years and God’s wrath will begin to be poured out.

        • Jim said:
          “It is pure fantasy.
          I relate it to the theory that there will be a pole shift and the worlds tectonic plates will rotate the entire crust of the earth 180 degrees so the north pole is at the south and vice-versa. People read a bible verse and assume this could actually happen, knowing nothing of course about geology.”

          The above is in reference to the fourth trumpet when God strikes the sun, moon and stars by a third, the result being that a third of the light will be missing during both day and night and has nothing to do with the earth speeding up or changing its poles. The people who believe this are not paying attention to the first part of the scripture which states that it is the sun, moon and stars that are darkened, emitting only 2/3’s of their normal light and therefore it has nothing to do with anything happening to the earth itself other than there being a third less light during day and night.

          • god know about geology. he created it

            I still go with god on this

            • Hi Marianne,

              Go with God regarding what event?

              • jim thinks the pole shift described in Isaiah 24 is pure fantasy.

                i say god is right and jim is wrong

                • What I mean is, what scripture are you getting the pole shift from?

                  • dmcal

                    if the earth is turned upside down, then the north pole is then the south, and the south pole is the north

                    that defines a pole shift

                    • You are wrong about what constitutes a pole shift.
                      A magnetic Pole Shift where the earth’s magnetic polarity flips so that a compass would point south instead of north happens on average every 200,000 years. It is not dangerous since the earth’s magnetic field is very weak.
                      What you are talking about – the entire earth rotating 180 degrees, or the crust of the earth spinning around due to plate tectonics – is simply impossible from a natural standpoint. It will never happen unless it was forced by the hand of God. But in doing so it would wipe out all life on earth, so why would He do it?
                      But if you expect it to happen on its own, forget it.
                      Personally, I think the phrase is a metaphor for confusion.
                      Take it literally at your own risk.

                • As far as I can tell, Isaiah 24 is speaking about the destruction that would be caused by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, the day of the Lord.

        • jim

          sorry you don’t believe the bible. Isaiah 24 describes the wrath of god, which you do not believe in anyhow. it describes physical destruction of the earth in literal terms…..not a metaphor for the magnetic shifting of poles.

          god is really going to grab the earth and flip it over so that you will be living in the southern hemisphere, but at this point you will not survive.

          wrath of god is due to sin….and the intent is to wipe out all life on earth, because by then only the wicked remain, and they are nothing to him

          • Marianne- I know this is off topic, but is relevant for this day and time, given your on going discussion with Jim!

            https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/52943/israels-ancient-enemies-reincarnated-todays-modern-leaders-jewish-world/?utm_source=Breaking+Israel+News&utm_campaign=9b3d805dcf-BIN_morning_11_15&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_b6d3627f72-9b3d805dcf-86557385#YRQMdBgwj65Ddyg6.97

            Shalom

          • Marianne,
            So then the millennium reign of Christ will be over a dead world with no people and utter destruction of the planet. That does not sound like the paradise where the child plays amongst the lions to me. I don’t think you really understand the millennium and what will happen then.
            You might as well have Nibiru crash into the earth completely destroying it, that would give the same results.
            Plus, if God wants to destroy the wicked, why do it in such a round about way? Why not just strike them dead, or wish them into the corn field? Why screw up the entire earth so nothing can live there any more? Where will the righteous live once the earth is destroyed?
            And exactly when does this “pole shift” occur? Before the Second Coming? After? At the end of the millennium? Tomorrow?
            I don’t think you’ve thought this thing thru. But then most people rarely do when it comes to bible prophecy.
            And the same thing applies to the link Al supplied. It claims Obama was predicted to be a failed leader. Not the kind of person that could ever rise to the level of Dictator of the World. So the bible says he will be a nobody, not the Antichrist. Plus he is not an Antichrist, he claimed he was saved by the blood of Jesus in a national interview. So can we finally agree Obama won’t be the Antichrist now?
            After all, why supply evidence like this unless you believe he could never lead an entire planet?
            You have to think things thru.