Horse, or no Horse?



I present. You decide.

There has been some discussion over the “horse” that appeared in the media coverage in Egypt during the riots.

Here is a video of the news coverage.

Here are some close ups of the “horse” ( see the pale – yellow- green-white horse):




Just to make this interesting, if you click on the image link here, it will present an enlargement of the horse. 

You can see his ears:

Also, someone pointed out this “white horse” appears to the left of the news commentator on her screen.

This appears at 1:55 on the video.

Stop the video above and look again.

Do you see it?

It is this screen shot below, but there is more light in the video above, so you can see the “white horse” better (replay the video and look again):



So what do you think?

Is it a reflection from the fire or camera lights?

Or a spirit.?

If it is an artifact, it certainly is an interesting one, and getting people to think about the apocalypse.


65 Responses to “Horse, or no Horse?”

  1. Concerning the validity of the gray/pale horse; I believe the timing of this is ironic. A number of years back I was given a very unusual dream in which I also saw a gray horse and it was running at full steam ahead. The funny thing about the picture I saw in my dream was that this pale horse was being chased by a fire engine. That’s where the dream ended. Maybe you can see the interpretation and it?

  2. In the lower 3 pictures where Rosemary Church of CNN is standing beside the screen, “Uprising in Egypt” where it shows a rider on a horse. That could probably be explained as being a picture of a rider on a horse. lol.

    On the CNN website, under Middle East, “Machetes, meat cleavers, axes: Cairo’s new neighborhood watches”, they make the comment in one of the gallery pictures (#27) quote, “Anti-government protesters pull a Mubarak supporter from a horse Wednesday, February 2, in Tahrir Square. Several supporters rode horses and camels through the square, which has been one of the main gathering points for the protesters.

    So I don’t necessarily find it odd, (or supernatural) that a picture that contained a rider on a horse, made it on the news while they were covering that ongoing event.
    Police, often utilize horses all over the world as well, in dealing with people in an attempt to quell riots.

  3. yeah, I saw a news clip with guys riding a horse,,,,, so?

    • I think there is some misunderstanding here. The white horse shown on
      CNN’s “Uprising in Egypt” is featured here as being relevant to the idea
      of the “ghost” horse being the 1st Horse(white) of the Apocalypse.

  4. During a few decades similar phenomena has been called with the name of UFO which are nothing but demonic creatures taking different shapes and pretending that they are from higher civilisation than humans on the earth. Rigth now we are approaching but not yet there the time of final 7 years and the devil tries to make everybody to believe that we are now in the middle of it. To prove this he shows the horse of revelation, it is most likely a demonic spirit proving the devil’s lie that there is no more time for repentence, everything is lost.
    But it is not yet that time. Now the Lord is making His last call to wake up the apostate church and preparing for the latter rain.
    It could have been also a trick made on the film. This is supported by the fact that there have been no interviews of anybody on the ground close to the phenomenon. And it belongs to the nature of reporters that if they really SAW something they would like to get opinions of others, not only wondering at the film what it is.

  5. While it is true that horses and camels were used as a means of crowd
    control,with the picture above representing this; please be mindful
    of the biblical relevance of events in Egypt, and perhaps consider
    the poignancy of the above representation. Yes, of course, there will
    always be a rational explanation, but this does not always rule out
    a spiritual connotation. Worth considering.

    God bless.

  6. And even more, there have been videos about an “Ufo” over the dome of rock some days ago. Just google “Dome of rock Ufo”…

    God bless

  7. …not likely old Lucy manifesting himself in spirit form. He prefers to stay hidden in the darkness. When he does manifest himself…it is usually as an angel of light…in order to deceive.

  8. I’m going to remain skeptical. When it comes to the media they can do anything. They can put someone elses head on some other person’s body. What about all the videos with subliminal messages. If they know people believe in this stuff they can reproduce it and make it look real.

  9. It looks like a sheet over a stick to me. It proceeds through/over people without causing any reaction. I put this in the “false signs/lying wonders” category.


  10. I am not sure about the image. Could be something, could be nothing. It is really hard to say given technology today. But I do believe the Muslim Brotherhood is pivotal in the biblical appearance of the White Horse of the Apocolypse. I have heard a lot of people say that the Ottoman Empire was the beginning of the 4 horses. Though this was an Islamic Empire, they granted other religions, within their borders, the right to practice their own beliefs. They weren’t the hardline Jihadists we have today. I heard Bridgette Gabriel,a Lebanese Journalist, speaking of the Muslim Brotherhood back in 2009, on the danger they posed in restoring the Calaphate through Jihad. The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 in Egypt. The government of Egypt has been hot and cold towards them, depending on who was in power at the time. The Muslim Brotherhool in credited with the assasination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt after signing a peace agreement with Israel in 1979.

    Daniel 9:11

    11) Yes, kol Yisrael has transgressed Your Torah, even by departing, that they might not obey Your voice: therefore “the curse-The Allah” is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the Torah of Moshe the servant of YHWH, because we have sinned against Him.

    Though the world has been against His people from the beginning, Islam is different. Their goal in life is to bring the world under the Calapahte by either conversion or murder. This is the whole reason the Muslim Brotherhood was conceived.

    I personally believe that the birth of the the Muslim Brotherhood marked the releasing of the first horse of the apocolypse. That is just my opinion. But with what we now see in Egypt, our own government, news media, and a large part of the world are willing to give The Brotherhoold a pass on stirring up the mess in Egypt and the rest of the Middle East. Remember what Obama said, there is nothing more beautiful than the Islamic call to prayer (not an exact quote). Since our schoolchildren now are possibly going to be forced to learn Arabic, chances are we might see all these things come to pass in the near future.

  11. Al;

    That’s interesting. Egypt(Muslim B/hood)> Ist Horse…definitely!!

    God bless.

  12. I’m going with what you described in your Nov. 9th, 2008 post. 🙂 As to who projected the image, you’ve got me.

    It may well be supernatural, but we also ought to keep in mind that people with access to sophisticated technology (e.g., for remote holograms) and not-so-sophisticated technology (for video editing) have also read the book of Revelation.

    Some of them might have reason to ‘play’ us faithful, watching Christ-followers — for spite, politics, or who knows what. (Drudge is not averse to the same kinds of games, from time to time.)

  13. First of all, I don’t see a horse in any of these images. I’m sure through the power of suggestion a case might barely be made, but what is the point? I saw the real horses (and camels) but of course that is not unusual.
    I just hope when you see the flock of white horses pulling the wedding party at the upcoming royal wedding in England you don’t take that to be the first seal of Revelation opening.🙂
    Surely if either God or Satan decided to present a sign of the apocalypse it would last more than a fraction of a second on a single news camera, don’t you think? I would expect something a bit more flashy and indisputable. This isn’t exactly the parting of the Red Sea here…
    Now, a regime change in Egypt could signal some prophetic fulfillment down the road such as the war of Gog/Magog when Egypt will attack Israel, but that has nothing to do with the horsemen of Revelation. I’m afraid this is just another case of trying to see something that’s not really there just to generate an interesting story. This belongs on YouTube, not on a bible web site.
    So there!

    • Hi James,

      Glad to hear you chime in here. I actually asked Marianne to email you to get your opinion about this, (since you are a camera buff and all) back when this discussion started on the “Pale, Grisled (Green) 4th Horse – Death”
      post about a week ago.

      Below is a cleaned up version of what I posted there about what I believe to be merely a reflection, or flare that was captured, from the fire of a burning bus.

      I think that it is great that this video clip is a catalyst for us to seek the Lord. That is a message that can never get old.

      But as to this reflection being so seriously considered as being one of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse, leaves me just shaking my head.

      I just spent the last 20 or so minutes doing some simple investigation. For those more interested in a rational and more plausible explanation, I suggest that you utilize this link

      First I would like you to realize that the image is reflecting off of the interior of the camera lens and therefore is inverted.

      I ask you to please stop the video clip at 10:05 -10:08.
      This is an abandoned bus that the protesters are about to set fire to. If you take a look at the side of the bus that we can see, you will see closer to the wheel that is the furthest away, there is either a door there, or a blackened area that could be some type of spilled accelerant thrown by the protesters.

      Next, please stop the clip at 10:14-10:22. Now you will see that same bus is in flames. If you look at the right side of the bus, (where that possible door is located), you will see that it is now fully inflamed. That burning door is what people are perceiving to be the rider of the horse, with the very bottom portion of it being perceived as the riders head, since the green horse image is actually inverted, like any other camera image.

      If you take into account that the image is inverted, and look at the bus from this perspective, and in utilizing the burning door on the side of the bus as your point of reference, you can now see that the flame to the right is what you are seeing as the head of the horse, and the flame to the left is the rear. When you look at the positive and negative shapes that are created by the light from the flame, and no flame, try to keep that image in your mind. The flames that are billowing upward are what you are seeing as the body, or hair of the horse. That is why the hair of the image looks like it is billowing in the wind.

      Then go to the section where the horse first appears, at 10:26 and stop the clip again. Find the bus that is burning now in the upper left side of the screen and now look at the burning door on it, and the surrounding dark and light shapes. (Also remember what it looked like when you studied it back on 10:14-10:22) take into consideration the movement of the flame as it correlates to the image of the green horses body. Keep in mind that the image is inverted, and the top of the flames are really what are being perceived as the body and lower portions of the horse. Run through the segment from 10:26 through 10:31 a couple of times stopping randomly to see if you can pick up the similarities between the burning bus, and the green horse image.

      Again when you allow the clip to run from 10:26 – 10:31 you will also see that what looks like the hair of the horse,(which again are the flames) are blowing from right to left. Yet the smoke and the flames from the burning bus are blowing from left to right? Which way do you think that the wind is actually blowing?

      With the green horse image being inverted, that would be exactly the way you would expect it to look. The opposite of reality, just like looking into a mirror. Again, the image, or reflection, remains motionless until the camera starts to pan to the right, it is only then that it actually starts to move.

      I also suspect that if we were shown the complete pan and frames that occurred prior to 10:26 that we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

      The clincher though, is if you happen to have a lap top, and can easily watch it all upside down.🙂

    • I believe there is something much bigger going on here. If I understand Bible prophcy correctly, there should be a King of the south made up of Egypt, and the North African countries.

      Perhaps, what we are seeing is the beginning of that with the riots across the Arab world. It brings in the more hard core moon god worshipers, and War is not far behind.

      • hi Leatherneck

        The current president Mubarak had a peace agreement with Israel. Now that he is gone and the Muslim brotherhood is taking over, the hostilities against Israel will increase.

  14. President Hosni Mubarak said he would not step down before September elections.

  15. 02/11/2011

    Ephesians 6: 12

    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    My dear friend as you are aware our fight is not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities. I had the opportunity to observe the video various times and it is quite impressive to see the pale horse. I realize that there is advance technology out there that can be used to taint this reporters report and give us weird feelings. I believe that the recording is authentic. I believe it possibly could be something supernatural. Now before I make a judgment call on something like this I ALWAYS go back to the BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES, for it is my two edge sword against all the fiery darts of the wicked. I know for a fact WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS. What I saw on that video report was a specter on a horse and it is pale in color. Before I continue, I am BORN FROM ABOVE, SAVED by GRACE ALONE, by the death, burial and RESURRETION POWER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE.
    Now my Lord Jesus said in; Matthew 24: 24-27 “For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I (Christ) have told you before. Wherefore, if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth; behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man (Christ) be.” I do not about you friend I sincerely believe you are saved. Christ is very clear “Believe it not”. Now why do I say this? Because according to scripture the pale horse DOES NOT APPEAR UNTIL AFTER THE CATCHING OF THE SAINTS. If you go to the book of Revelation, chapter 4 verse 1 it reads using the KJV: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here {hither}, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.” I am not a Greek scholar but with the proper Greek interlinear books and the Holy Spirit indwelling in me, giving me the desire to know more about JESUS, it starts with “Metá tauta”, it is my understanding that these two words “After these ” is always define as” after all these things cease to exist. What things? The church ceases to exist on earth for he says:”Come up here” and does not appear again UNTIL chapter 19: 11-14: “And I saw heaven opened, and, behold, a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself. 13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood; and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” Notice the last verse; “the armies in heaven followed Him upon white horses, white and clean.” That is the CHURCH returning with our LORD which was cleansed by HIS BLOOD. So the truth is the PALE HORSE will appear AFTER the CHURCH has been RAPTURED (CAUGHT UP). John 14:1-4, I Cor. 15: 51-52, Rev. 4:1, 1 Thess. 4:16-18. The last words Paul gave us in this chapter was; “Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.
    The pale horse in the video is a demon specter from hell informing us he is in control of those Muslim mobs in Cairo, Egypt. It has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation. When the church is caught up with Christ, then in chapter 6 of Revelations soon after our LORD opens the scroll in the fourth seal appears the pale horse (vs.7-8) rider is known as Death and his companion is HELL, POWER to kill with sword, hunger and beast of the field. I have a few questions for you about the video report on Egypt you ask people to see. Where are the people dying by slaughter and by hunger? Where are the beasts of the fields killing people or consuming them? Where are they? I did not see that after the video continue to roll and I still have not seen anything like that happening in such scales. Remember we are to be looking for our LORD JESUS CHRIST not the antichrist and his vile friends (principalities and powers of this world). We have the Champion of the torturous cross and death the RESURRECTED LORD GOD ALMIGHTY on our side. Romans 8:31: “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” I am so glad HE gives me peace and the knowledge to know that HIS WORD is not built upon fables but TRUTH. God Bless.


    Link given on video report. Watch video around 10:15 min. thru 10:33 min.

  16. Hi Norman,
    I agree with you that we are definitely not looking at the 4th horse of the apocalypse here. Actually I don’t think we are looking at anything really.
    But I don’t agree with your logic here.
    I believe the line:
    “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here {hither}, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.” is referring what the angel said to John during his vision. John describes what he saw in the vision, not what we will see here on earth when the seals are broken. For example, the first seal represents false Christs or perhaps the actual Antichrist but I doubt when we first see him he won’t really be riding a white horse and carrying a bow. So there is little sense in looking around for horses – that would be an exercise in futility.
    I also don’t believe the church will be raptured any time before the actual second coming. We will all be here to witness the seals being opened. If not, why write the Book of Revelation? Why warn of the mark of the beast? No, we will all be tested, not removed. We will receive protection, but even Noah had to endure the flood – he was only saved by the word of God which instructed him to build the ark. The Book of Revelation is our ark. If we understand it, we will get thru the tribulation alright. We shouldn‘t expect a free pass. It is not biblical.
    Check the context of the verses you referred to and you will see that none of them refer to a time sooner than the final trump when Christ returns.
    Maybe Marianne will open a new blog topic on this subject as it will be an important thing to know as we approach the final days.
    God bless!

    • HI James

      Yes we will be tested, but not all will be protected. The 5th seal indicates the martyrdom of the saints. Many will die.

      • Yes, I agree with that Marianne,

        I believe that scripture does indicate, that not all of those that claim to be Christians, will be raptured up to become His bride.

        It will only be those that are the chosen and elect.
        Those that surrender their self to the process of “sanctification” and place God’s will above their own.

        This premise appears to be quite clear if you read Matthew
        24:36-44. & Matthew 25:1-30. in there correct context.
        Christ is clearly speaking about not only the secular population, but also of believers here as well.

        This is why Paul tells us to press in, and fight the good fight. So we, by our submission, can be considered to be unblemished, and acceptable to be presented as His bride.

        And that rapture will only take place after the apostasy, and after the man of sin is revealed that proclaims himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1:4

        These may be interesting times that we are living in, but I don’t think that they are gonna be much fun.
        God Bless all of us to seek Him with all of our hearts.

  17. Hi James,

    Above you say,” I also don’t believe the church will be raptured any time before the actual second coming.”

    I was wondering if you would mind explaining what your definition, or understanding of Christ’s second coming consists of?

    If I may, I believe that in the rapture,that all of those that are considered worthy to be His bride, are resurrected and go to meet Christ up in the clouds. They then go to heaven with Him and get married to Him as His bride. He doesn’t come to down to the earth at this time, we go up to meet Him in the clouds.

    Then the tribulation continues on earth, until the time that no one knows but God, when He will then return, (His second coming) with all of those who made the rapture and the angels.
    It is at that time He will be victorious in battle, and then set up His millennial kingdom. Then the sheep and goat judgment takes place, and those that are found worthy, are allowed entry in the Kingdom as well.

    Just my understanding of events.

    God Bless


      I believe that all of the stories that are told in the OT that have been described in any great detail, are a foreshadowing of an event that will take place in the future. There have been many such correlations that have proved this to be true.

      Though I have no proof to this particular theory, (other than a feeling within my heart), I believe that the story of “Rahab” in Joshua, may apply to those that accept, and believe that Christ is the Messiah during the tribulation. I believe that they will be counted as being faithful the same as she was, by protecting, and helping those that have been left behind. Try reading the sheep and goat judgement with this mind set, see if this thought seems to fit. See if the Spirit affirms this to you?

  18. Know your God, and do exploits. Life goes on still…

  19. Love the horse pic you chose marianne….is that an arabian? LOL

  20. 02/17/2011

    Mr. Giordano, I want to reply to the letter you answered mine with on 02/11/2011. I would have responded sooner but I love to take my time in responding and let the Holy Spirit guide me with scripture. Let’s see if my logic is erroneous as you claim?

    You wrote: “After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven; and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up here {hither}, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.”

    I am going to break this down and try to anwer you letter according as you said:

    1. is referring what the angel said to John during his vision. John describes what he saw in the vision, For example, the first seal represents false Christs or perhaps the actual Antichrist but I doubt when we first see him he won’t really be riding a white horse and carrying a bow.

    True: We will not see him riding on a white horse; this has always been symbolic, or representative of heroes. He will definitely be a worldwide hero, for he will have the answer or solution to a lot of the world’s woes.

    2. So there is little sense in looking around for horses – that would be an exercise in futility. I also don’t believe the church will be raptured any time before the actual second coming.

    Wrong: Just because you do not believe that there will not be any rapture before the 2nd return of Christ that does not mean it is not going to happen. Your word is NOT the ETERNAL WORD of GOD. You also need to STOP mixing the Church with Israel. Another name for the Great tribulation is “Jacob’s Trouble” Jer. 30:7. The church was conceived after the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, not during His earthly walk. He spoke about the church when he walked with the apostles, but it was conceived on Pentecost day were there was 120 in the upper room. Acts 2:1-4. We are not to know Christ in the FLESH anymore, but in resurrection and power of the Spirit (John4:24) for Christ is GOD and so the church is the body of Christ, read; 2 Corinthians 5: 16, but I suggest you read the entire chapter. Do not forget we are AMBASSADORS of CHRIST he on earth, for our citizenship is in heaven, NOT on earth (Phil 3:20). A mere man that truly loves his wife would never put his wife in danger or try to torture her by making here her go through any type of pain and suffering to prove her love for him. Neither will God do such a thing to His beloved Bride. God loves His Church with an AGAPE love and the Spirit bears witness. It is very clear that the gates of hell will not prevail against it; neither will anything separate us from the love of God. (Matthew 16:18, Romans 8:15-16, 37-39)

    3. We will all be here to witness the seals being opened.

    Wrong: Sorry only those that are not saved by Grace Alone will stay behind. Works (flesh) will NEVER get you anywhere. (Romans 4:1-5, 2 Thess. 1:8-9, Gal 2:16). The Epistle of Titus 3:5-6 says; “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Spirit, Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, That, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

    4. If not, why write the Book of Revelation?

    Wrong: Revelation is a book of blessings: “Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.” (Rev 1: 3). The book of revelation was written for those who are born again (Born from above). If you are not born again your understanding will be in vain. Matthew 13: 10-13 says, “The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” 11 He replied, “The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    5. Why warn of the mark of the beast?

    Reason why we warn people is : Because it is our job to try to reconcile people to Christ, but if they refuse to believe with the heart, He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.(Romans 10:9-13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8)

    6. No, we will all be tested, not removed. We will receive protection,

    Wrong: Only the 144,000 converted virgin Jews will be protected, the rest who come to Christ thru the preaching of 144,000 converted virgin Jews will suffer persecution and martyrdom. (Revelation 7 and chapter 14: 1-5)

    7. but even Noah had to endure the flood – he was only saved by the word of God which instructed him to build the ark. The Book of Revelation is our ark.

    Wrong: The Blood of Christ is our ARK, not the book of Revelation, it only warns us of the future. The Ark during Noah’s time was a representation of the protection that being in Christ is given those who believe.

    8. If we understand it, we will get thru the tribulation alright.

    WRONG: I understand that no one will get thru the Great Tribulation on their own will, because our nature is evil by nature (Romans 3:10-19, Gal 4: 8, Apoc. 13: 7 y 14-15-)

    9. We shouldn‘t expect a free pass.

    Wrong: My friend you do not understand GRACE: unmerited favor. (Ephesians 2:8-9) For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. Anything else is just ANOTHER GOSPEL. (Galatians 1:6)

    10. It is not biblical.

    Wrong: GRACE is Biblical and can be found all thru the Old Testament and New Testament. Genesis 6:8 says;“Noah found GRACE before the eyes of the LORD !!!!!!!!”

    11. Check the context of the verses you referred to and you will see that none of them refer to a time sooner than the final trump when Christ returns.

    My friend Giordano you are most confused when it comes to the second return of our LORD Jesus Christ. Your logic is only true in one place that was in the beginning. The rest you are wrong and need to go back and study your Bible to cleanse your mind and strengthen you spiritually so that you can Glorify Christ in His WORKS ALONE, not yours or Ms. Marianne and I do not mean this disrespectfully. For all our works of righteousness is nothing but filthy rags before a HOLY AWSOME GOD. (John 6:28-29 and Isaiah 64:6) AMEN !

    God Bless

    Norman Pabon

  21. Hello Norman,
    I have heard and reflected on all the arguments you present here. There are two main camps here and we are both entrenched on opposite sides. I just watched an hour-long sermon on this topic last night in fact. The pastor presented dozens of scriptures about the value of works and here are a few I remember:

    Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

    Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

    Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    It turns out we are both correct, technically. Faith alone will save you but you will also be judged and graded by your works. It was said that your heavenly garment will be sewn from the threads of your works, and nobody wants to appear before Christ buck-naked.
    Think about it – the wicked will be punished, but who are the wicked? Only Muslims? Hitler was a catholic. Will we see him in New Jerusalem or do you expect him to get a quick trip to the lake of fire? The wicked are those who break God’s laws on a regular basis. And to break one commandment is to break them all according to Jesus Himself. So ignoring the sabbath is just like committing murder as far as God is concerned.

    Here is more from Romans 2:
    Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    Especially there verses:
    “But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good.“
    “as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;“

    Sure looks like God will judge us by our works. Those who believe works don’t count will be the least in the kingdom of God. (To paraphrase).

    As for the rapture, you have no proof that Jesus has 2 second comings. I’ve looked for it when I believed in it and there is none. Only the assumption that believers will be removed from rather than protected during the tribulation. It would be nice, if it were true.

    Think about it, if all Christians were sent to heaven before the rapture, Satan would already be defeated. He would be left with no-one but unbelievers – Antichrists. He would have nothing left to do. Who is left to deceive? He’s already got the left-behinders, so who needs a mark anyway?
    I think you have missed the whole point of the Book of Revelation. It is all about the cleansing that must take place before Christ can marry His true church. All pagan practices must be purged. All churches that break God’s commandments by their own decree will be destroyed. Of the 7 churches in Revelation 3, Jesus is only pleased with one. Within 50 years of His departure, 85% of the Christian churches were screwed up to some extent. This was a preview of the end times. Why do think it he mentioned this in the beginning of the book? Because at the end of the book He is going to judge the modern churches and find most of them lacking and apostate. That is the meaning of the words “Mystery Babylon” which He will joyfully destroy. What will emerge from the ashes will be His true remnant church. The church that cleansed the sanctuary in 1844, according to Daniel.

    So we will have to agree to disagree. But I like to think of it this way – if I’m wrong, I’ll get a pleasant surprise unexpectedly, but if you’re wrong, you will be quite unprepared for a world of hurt, as we use to say in the service. And you might just wait too long before you realize your mistake, and by that time it could be too late.

    I sincerely hope not my friend, for it is for that very reason I write these things. My intent is to save you (from grief), not to prove you wrong. We must all do our part.

    God bless.

  22. There will be no martrydom of my Saints marianne. Martyrdom is a failed initiation. Those that pass it with flying colours do not die for God because God does not ask you to die for him, he asks you to live for him.

    Those of the light of love are guided to safety because they are in harmonic tune with their souls. As the Christ said ‘The soul is the lamp that lights the way’.

    As far as the white horse is concerned it is the Kalki that rides the white horse. In Jewish mysticism it is the last, the ACHARIT.

  23. As Christ said, our heavenly Father is the God of the living not the dead.

  24. 02/22/2011

    Hi James Giordano,

    I read your argument and I this time I will agree to disagree. I hate to inform you, but there are more than two camps concerning the times of “Jacobs Trouble” Jer. 30.7. These are the following beliefs concerning the 2nd return of Christ in brief:

    1. Pre-tribulation: Christ will come for his saints, afterward he will return with His saints. The 1st stage is known as the catching up of the saints, in the Greek it is “Harpazo” which means; “removed by force”. In other words nothing can stop this Glorious event. The body of Christ is exempt from God’s wrath (1 Thess. 1:10) and Rev 3:10 supported by the Greek preposition”ék”, which means “out of”. It is also clear it expresses imminentness. Only those saved by Grace thru Faith purchased by Christ’s shed BLOOD. The 2nd stage is called the revelation. (This is a Bible truth, it will happen whether you believe it or not.)
    2. Partial Catching of the Saints: Believers who are watching and waiting for the Lord will be raptured at various times before and during the 7 year Great Tribulation (GT) (Jacob’s Trouble). Supposedly the mature saints will be caught up. This includes the dead and living.
    3. Mid-tribulation: Believers are raptured in the middle of the Great Tribulation.
    4. Post-tribulation: Believers are raptured at the end of the Great Tribulation.
    5. Historic Pre- millennium: His return will be preceded by certain signs.
    6. Post-millennialism: Believer the Kingdom of God is now extended through missionary activities, evangelism and preaching.
    7. Amillennium: Known as the growth of good and evil in the world between the 1st return of Christ and His 2nd return. God’s Kingdom id now present.
    8. Preterist: Claim the Olivert Discourse, teaching given by Christ on the Mount of Olives (Matthew 24:1-25:46), the book of Revelation, and many other New Testament prophetic passages were fulfilled during the Roman Empire and destruction of Jerusalem with its temple in 70 AD.

    Before we continue we know that a text without a context is nothing but a pretext. We also need to remember that when we read anything, no matter what it is we are to ask the following questions: Who, What, Why, Where and When so that we can analyze whatever is before our eyes. But most important is asking the Lord to reveal what you’re reading before you; especially if it pertains to the scriptures.

    Now you threw a lot of scripture at me and I read them. I am quite familiar with them and I have also studied them in depth. I can honestly say they are very beautiful, very heartwarming but it has nothing to do with the Great Tribulation (GT). I will only comment on the Epistle of James because the scriptures you chose in Romans 2: 9-16 are similar to those in James. I believe your Pastor is sincerely, yes sincerely, WRONG when it comes to using the scriptures inappropriately. I admit works are part of the Christian walk; this comes AFTER you are SAVED by Grace thru FAITH. (Eph 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Isaiah 66:4) Not before!!!

    What is meant when we say we are saved by “GRACE ALONE”? The term “grace alone,” means we are salved from the WRATH of God (1 Thess.1:10) – we have been delivered from HELL – and this is because of the amazing GOOD in God, and NOT because of anything good in us. It is unmerited favor we do not deserve forgiveness. For we have all fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). The Bible from Genesis to Revelation is full of the reality of our flesh inadequacy. Paul emphasized on the works of the flesh is nothing but sIn (“I” capitalize means I am a sinner); let’s look briefly at Galatians 5: 19-21 concerning the works of the flesh:

    Adultery: lust of others spouse; indulge illicit lust; giving yourself to illicit sex without payment; gratify illicit sex of the homosexual or the heterosexual; provoking incest; unfaithfulness to God (Mt 5:28, 32; John 4:16-18; 1Cor 6:16; 2Pet 2:14).

    Fornication: between the unmarried or married; indulge unlawful lust; illicit sexual practice with payment; illicit sexual practice of either sex; lust in the heart (John 4:16-18; Ro 1:21-32; 1Co 6:9-10, 16,18; Jude 1:77).

    Uncleanness: opposite of pure thoughts; spoken words; dirty, physically or morally (1Co 6:15-18; Eph 4:19, 31; 5:5; Col 3:5,8; Jas 1:21).

    Lasciviousness: promiscuous; expressing lust; excess; not restrained; bold in sin (Mark. 7:21-23; Ro 1:22-29; 7:8; Eph 4:19; 1Pe 4:3).

    Idolatry: anything dethroning God; covetousness; lack of gratitude to God; stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry (For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry…, 1Sa 15:23) (Col 3:5; Re 21:8).

    Witchcraft: an Antichrist practicing sorcery using medication; i.e. drugs to charm, as by enticing words, not relying on God; an empty promise of peace (Jer. 6:14; Ac 19:19; 1Jo 2:18; Re 9:21; 18:23; 21:8). Witchcraft is by enticing, subtle words (1Co 2:4; Gal 3:1; Col 2:4).

    Hatred: inward disposition of hostility; lack of regard for another (1Jo 2:9, 11; 3:15; 4:20).

    Variance: not agreeing when you should; a quarrel (Ro 13:13; 1Co 1:10; 3:3).

    Emulation: to copy another to equal or surpass; jealousy as with malice (Eph 4:31; Philip. 2:3).

    Wrath: great anger; fierceness (John 5:42; Ro 7:5; Gal 5:24; 6:7-8; Eph 4:31; Jas 1:19-20; Re 2:23).

    Strife: to argue; irritate; oppose; contention (Mt 12:25-26; Ro 2:8-9; 12:17-18; 13:13; 1Ti 2:23; Jas 3:16).

    Seditions: covert resistance; rebellion (Ro 16:17-18; 1Co 1:10; 2Co 12:20).

    Heresies: open opposition; demanding to have one’s own way; to make a selection, i.e. as with a party or sect in resistance (1Co 11:16-19; Eph 4:31; Col 3:8; 1Ti 6:3-5; Tit 3:9-11; 2Pe 2:1).

    Envyings: or ill-will, spite, jealousy; thinking the other person not at all worthy of having what they have, because you want it yourself (Ro 13:13; 1Co 3:3; Philip. 2:14; 1Ti 6:4-5; Jas 3:14-16; 4:5). Note here that what puts man apart from the beast is that God has visited man, not that we are worthy.

    Murders: organized slaughter or to slay another (Mt 5:19, 21-22; 1Jo 3:12,15). Jesus says even thinking ill of another puts you in danger of judgment (Mt 5:21-22; Eph 4:31; Col 3:8).

    Drunkenness: from an intoxicant, your intoxication, i.e. being bewitched and drunk with desire (Lu 12:45-46; 21:34; Ro 13:13; 1Co 6:10; Eph 5:18; 1Th 5:6-9). (Isa. 5:11, 12, 22; Gal. 5:21).”

    Reveling: a carousal or rioting, the letting loose of inhibitions, such as in a drunken rampage (Lu 12:45-46; Ro 13:13; 1Co 6:10; 1Th 4:5; 1Pe 4:3). **

    This only shows what we are made up of (Matthew 15: 19-20) depravity. In other words it is

    “Corruption of the Flesh”

    Mankind is fallen and human nature is depraved, the term “flesh” is the expression of that fact; and every time it is used in Scripture in a moral sense it refers to “the corruption” of our entire beings, without any distinction between our visible and invisible parts—body and mind. This is evident from those passages where “the flesh” is contrasted with “the spirit” or the new nature (Rom. 8:5-6; I Cor. 2:11; Gal. 5:17).*

    Question: DO YOU HONESTLY THINK YOU CAN GIVE GOD 100% HOLINESS DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION? Remember He said “Be Holy for I AM Holy” (1 Peter 1:16). Don’t forget Jesus gave 100% and was born without sIn, you would have to do just as good as or better than Him, for you to be allowed in Heaven. NOT!! No way Jose! Grace is needed to overcome the enemy, SIN, Christ Himself is our propitiation; Romans 3: 25-26 “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness; that He might be just, and the Justifier of him who believeth in Jesus.

    The Epistle of James has NOTHING to do with SALVATION. Remember our salvation was taken care of for us by the Lord Jesus Christ HIMSELF, He performed for us. (John 6:28-29, Hebrews 10 and 11) The main purpose is to teach “US” how to CONDUCT OURSELVES as CHRISTIANS. The book of Romans teaches us that it is by FAITH ALONE that you become a CHRISTIAN.

    Now in James chapter 1 it starts off with the following: “Greetings to the twelve tribes scattered abroad” then it goes on and speaks about “trials and temptation vs. 2-18” following with “Listening and doing vs. 19-27” So the epistle was written for the Jewish Christians under persecution and those still in Jerusalem. It dealt with “Conduct only”.

    In Chapter 2, he is teaching how we are to conduct ourselves as Christian too. The subtitles for this chapter is “The sin of favoritism is forbidden vs. 1-13” and “Faith without Works is Dead (useless) vs.14-26”. Again it has nothing to do with SALVATION or the GT. What it shows is what our conduct should be like, “We are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.” It is very simple. In the book of James I am going to go back a little further, we will start with chapter 2: 8- 13, as you will see it speaks of the ROYAL LAW (10 commandments) and it reads:

    If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. (10) For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

    Notice it is about CONDUCT not salvation. Our judgment was given on the cross and forgiveness and salvation, those who believe was secured the day Christ came out of the grave in power and glory forever. (Hebrews 9:13 – 14; 10-14-15 and Matthew 28) reads:

    The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean (flesh). How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

    For by a single offering (notice not yours or mine) HE (Christ) has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us ….. Now I will definitely accept the Holy Spirit witness on my behalf before any pastor’s sermon. I know in whom I have believed and is able to keep me and you, if you truly trust Him. (2 Tim. 1:12)

    It also says in Ephesians 1:13-14: In him (Christ) you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed (NOT WORKS) in him (Christ), were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who (Christ) is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it to the praise of his glory.

    I don’t know about you, I know for sure Christ shed His Blood for me and ALL that believe with their hearts too. This means my salvation and those who believe is secured by His Blood FOREVER. Remember it says “When you heard the Gospel of TRUTH… because I believed I am SEALED with the HOLY SPIRIT” I am covered, son and if you believed from the heart YOU (Rom 10:9-13) are covered too. No, sir I will not be going thru GT I trust my savior Jesus Christ and He has made it clear in scripture that the GT is not for the believer it for those who are not saved and to also turn the nation of Israel’s heart during Jacob’s Trouble around to Him forever. The rapture is a mystery revealed, I Corinthians 15: 51-52 “Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Thess. 4: 16-17). Those who have ears listen to what the Sprit says. The last comment I make will be on Revelation 20:12. Read, and use these principals; Who, What, Why, Where and When on this text alone:

    Who will appear there to be judged?

    The lost only those who trusted in their own works to work for them (Romans 4: 4 and 11:6). Without the shed Blood of Christ there will be crying and gnashing of teeth.(Matthew 13:42)

    What is this about?

    The Final Judgment is for the LOST, those who refused to believe and trust Jesus. No the believer will be judged at the Great White Throne only at the “Mercy Seat of Christ”, in heaven (2 Corinthian 5:10). Remember; “born once die twice, born twice die once.”(John 3.3)

    Why is this judgment going to happen?

    The lost have called God Almighty a LIAR (1 John 5: 9-10) when they refuse to believe and trust His Son’s finished WORK on the cross (John 19:30). God is JUST never UNJUST and He will bring judgment. Christ met all the requirements of the LAW ALONE.

    Where is this judgment?

    Before God’s Great White throne, the Supreme Court of all courts in heaven. (The COURT of courts). No appeals will be granted. NO SECOND CHANCE. (Matthew 25:41)


    Future event at the end of time right after the millennium.

    I would like to recommend two books for you to read. Granted there are many books out there that are helpful to understand the rapture, but I strongly recommend “The Rapture” by Tim LaHaye or “The Tribulation” by Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy. Also read John17, where our High Priest prayed for us a few days before His death. It will impress you for it shows how much He truly loves us. I believe my prayers are fulfill and I know His are definitely fulfilled because He is the Son of God without sin. Now if this is not enough to bring you home then all I can tell you is to listen to what the Holy Spirit says. I’ll be praying for you and I will not respond anymore to your Gospel of WORKS, which is NOT the Gospel of Grace thru Faith ALONE (Galatians 1: 8-9). The rest is nothing but Myths. If you do not know Jesus Christ as your LORD, GOD and Savior, ask Him from the heart to be, the Holy Spirit will seal you until the day of redemption and open your eyes and ears to hear. By the way Satan is a defeat foe no doubt whatsoever!!!!!



    • “When?

      Future event at the end of time right after the millennium.”

      so no one is judged until AFTER the millennium???? Never heard of this….

      • lyndsey,

        I think that you may have misunderstood what Norman had said in his above post. I don’t believe that he is saying that “no one” is judged until after the Millennium.
        If you read from the paragraph, which starts with, “The Final Judgment is for the LOST” and also take into consideration that the word No, was probably a typo and meant to be “Not”, you might find what he saying easier to understand?
        I could be wrong, but how I would have phrased that sentence, which I believe describes what I think that Norman was saying, would be in the following way;
        “It is not the Believer who will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, they will only be judged at the “Mercy Seat of Christ”

        There are actually 7 judgments that are referred to in Scripture.

        1- “Judgment of Believers sins” – This takes place at the Cross. 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18, Romans 5:9,
        2 Corinthians 5:21, Galatians 3:13, Hebrews 9:26-28; 10:10, 14-17.

        2- “Self – Judgment” – Part of the Sanctification process. If we constantly judge ourselves, we won’t have to be judged later by the Lord. 1 Corinthians 11:31

        3- “Judgment of Believer’s – “Works” – This takes place at the Bema Seat of Christ.
        Romans, 14:10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Matthew 12:36, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 6:8, Colossians 3:24,25.
        This will occur after the rapture event.

        Note; Here is where there appears to be a differing of opinions between some of the most respected of the scholars. In one camp there are those that believe that “all” Spirit filled, born again Christians will be “caught up” within the rapture, and that those things that Paul speaks about in respects to loss, or things we can lose, are associated to either be “rewards” of inheriting positions of authority in the coming Millennial Kingdom, or a “loss” in barely being able to enter the Kingdom itself.
        Whereas the other position consists of the belief, that the losses that Paul is speaking about, is in actuality, speaking of those of us that do not submit to the process of Sanctification, and therefore do not measure up to be betrothed as the true Bride of Christ. It is their position that they will not be included within the rapture event, and will be those that will be left during the time of the Tribulation. It is their opinion that Matthew 25:1-13, (the Ten Virgins) is not a parable, but Christ revealing an actual story because of it’s significance relevance to the Bride.

        4-“Sheep and Goat Judgment ” Matthew 25:31-46 Both Camps are in general agreement regarding time frame on this, with the only difference between them being, that one believes that it will consist of only Gentiles, where the other believes that it will consist of Gentiles, as well as the Believers that had been left behind, but then proved their faith. Regarding time frame, this judgment occurs immediately after the Tribulation, when Christ returns in His second coming.

        5- “Judgment of those living in Israel at the Second Coming”- This determines their place in the Millennial Kingdom, Zechariah 13:8,9, Isaiah 1:24-31, it determines who will receive blessings and who will not.
        Psalm 50:1-7, Ezekiel 20:33-44, Malachi 3:2-5, 4:1,2.

        6- “Judgment of Angels”- Occurs after the Millennium. Jude 6

        7- “White Throne Judgment”- This is the judgment of the wicked and the dead at the end of the Millennium.
        Revelation 20:11-15. The test is the possession of eternal life.



        It is obvious that you hold a great passion for God’s word in your heart. However, if I or someone else were to ask you, “So do you possess and infallible knowledge of God’s word?” I would hope that your answer would be, “No.”
        That is the “truthful” answer, that I hope we all would respond with to that question.
        No matter what the subject, or topic of discussion may be, if one believes that they understand it completely, then they are doing themselves a dis-service. For what they are ultimately doing, is eliminating their opportunity for growth.

        I think that you would agree, that the Protestant body of believers is fractured, and unable to collectively reach a consensus over many issues? And I would suggest that the first obvious answer as to “why” that is, would be satan of course, and his infiltration of false teachers within the church. But there are other reasons as well, that aren’t quite as obvious.
        These mostly come to light, in how the average Christian reads the Bible, and attempts to study God’s word.
        No matter what the intention in the heart of an individual is, if you do something incorrectly, logically, the ensuing results will be incorrect.

        One of these problems arose, out of an effort to actually be able to reference the Bible easier by those that first translated the Bible into English. Their inclusions of chapters, verses, and punctuations, into a body of inspired work that originally did not contain any of these, has created numerous difficulties. Though I agree that these inclusions do assist us in many ways, they also sometimes pose problems.

        For just one quick example. Lets say that someone is reading John 14, and they come to the verse where Christ says, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” (John 14:15. NKJV)
        Well in taking just this one verse out of it’s correct context, can and has, been the subject of many debates, which even include the necessity to still follow the Torah, and the Law still being in effect.
        However, if one simply realizes, and takes into consideration, that an ongoing conversation has been taking place, and that what Christ was referring to specifically was mentioned within the previous chapter of 13, namely,
        “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34,35 NKJV)
        Then the specific answer to what His commandment consisted of, becomes blatantly clear. So needless to say, ones principles that they utilize in respects to their hermeneutics, is extremely important.

        Also there will be those of us who will take a single verse, and utilize it to substantiate their particular point of view, whether it happens to be taken completely out of context or not. That happens way too much.
        The Bible is complete, and one must utilize the fullness of scripture to accurately find the answers they seek.

        However, were I believe that most problems stem from, is over one that I have been guilty of myself.
        One which I believe that we all have been guilty of at one point or another. Not intentionally of course, however that does not diminish the problems that it causes.
        What I am referring to here is this, either before we were born again, or after the point of our conversion, and acceptance of Christ within or hearts as our Savior, when we have read the Bible as mere babes, it has been my experience in speaking with others, that we all have read something that we believed fully, and have understood as being true.
        Now, with that being said, with some they did receive a true revelation, and Hallelujah for that.
        But with others, unfortunately it wasn’t.
        Not because the intentions of their heart had anything to do with it at all, but rather their inability to understand the principles of utilizing proper hermeneutics.
        They now are left with that preconceived error rooted deeply within their psyche as being a truth, and now have to take any further study, and apply their interpretation to fit accordingly, to that preconceived error.

        What happens in utilizing this methodology, is that in actuality, we attempt to conform God’s word to fit our beliefs, rather than it being the other way around.

        I have had to pull the lid off of my spiritual box of understanding, and throw some previous beliefs out the window many times myself. Yet each time in doing so, a few more pieces of the puzzle seemed to now fit a bit easier, rather that being crammed in. I admit freely that I don’t possess all of the answers.

        With that being said, I would like to address your belief that when Christ appears again, it will only be at what we refer to as the Second Coming. And with you being a Berean at heart, I will just provide you with Book, chapter, and verse, for you to conduct your own studies. I am just asking for you to simply consider other possibilities.

        Please refer to, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, and John 14:1-4 first.
        Now, with possibly the exception of what Christ Himself says in John, I think that you will agree that these verses are referring to what we commonly call the “rapture.” And when you read these verses, you will see that though they are only reinforcing what Paul had previously told them before, face to face, they are still described in significant detail.

        Now, please refer to, Isaiah 13:9,10, Matthew 24:29,30 and Mark 13:24,26.
        We would both be in agreement, that these are indeed referring to Christ’s second coming, correct? So now, I would just like to pose this question to you, “If when Paul described the “rapture” in such significant detail, why would he have possibly omitted any mention of,”The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light”
        (or words to that effect), as is mentioned in the above verses if they were indeed the same event?

        I would also ask you to please consider the following as well.

        There appears to be two distinctly different groups that are described in the Bible when we look at this subject.
        And when we attempt to compile the information associated to these different groups, we encounter mutually contradictory aspects between them.

        Group – “A”
        Daniel 2:44-45, Daniel 7:9-14, Daniel 12:1-3, Zechariah 14:1-15, Matthew 13:41, Matthew 24:15-31,
        Matthew 26:64, Mark 13:14-27, Mark 14:62, Luke 21:25-28, Acts 1:9-11, Acts 3:19-21, 1 Thessalonians 3:13,
        2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, 2 Peter 3:1-14, Jude 14,15, Revelation 1:7,
        Revelation 19:11, 20:6, Revelation 22:7,12, 20.

        Group – “B”
        John 14:1-3, Romans 8:19, 1 Corinthians 1:7,8, 1 Corinthians 15:1-53, 1 Corinthians 16:22, Philippians 3:20,21,
        Colossians 3:4, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, 1 Thessalonians 5:9,
        1 Thessalonians 5:23, 2 Thessalonians 2:1,(3), 1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 4:1, Titus 2:13, Hebrews 9:28,
        James 5:7-9, 1 Peter 1:7,13, 1 John 2:28,- 3:2, Jude 21, Revelation 2:25, Revelation 3:10.

        If you choose to partake in this study, I believe that you will see, that in Group “A” all people on the earth are affected; “every eye shall see Him.” But in Group “B”, only Believer’s are affected.

        In Group “A” things proceed only after a series of precedent events. Whereas in Group “B” it is imminent.
        We are instructed to expect Him directly after what is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10.

        In Group “A” it does not reference any translation of Saints, or resurrection. In Group “B”, it specifically involves the resurrection of Believer’s.

        In Group “A” Translated Saints accompany Christ to the earth. In Group “B” they are gathered from the earth.
        Both live and resurrected dead.

        In group “A” the Earth is judged. In Group “B” the Earth is not judged.

        In Group “A” It concludes the “Day of Wrath” In Group “B” it occurs prior to the “Day of Wrath.”

        In Group “A” Satan is bound for a thousand years, In Group “B” there is no reference to Satan whatsoever.

        In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His own. In Group “B” Christ comes “for” His own.

        In group “A” Christ comes to the earth. In Group “B” Christ comes in the air.

        In Group “A” Christ comes “with” His bride. In Group “B” He comes “for” His bride.

        In Group “A” the Tribulation is interrupted, and the Millennial Kingdom follows. In Group “B” the Great Tribulation follows.

        These are just a few things that I would hope that you and others would take into consideration, that happen to share your same point of view. I don’t offer them as a definitive proof whatsoever, rather, I offer them simply to ponder over as a possibility.

        God Bless

        • Hi Gregg,
          Thanks for the detailed response. Like you I once believed in the pre-trib rapture – for 20 years in fact. I had a problem with the logic – like saying that if so-and-so was talking about such-and-such he would have said this, that or the other thing. It is the same logic Sunday worshippers try to use to “show” that the apostles began meeting on the first day instead of the sabbath. This is one reason I have settled on my particular interpretation. As you said, a case can be made for several interpretations. Our minds just process things differently.
          One reason I don’t believe there will be a pre-trib rapture is that I don’t believe in the standard 7-year tribulation period, nor the New World Order nor the Antichrist. The 70th week of Daniel is not an end-time prophecy, so the belief that the rapture occurs just before the Antichrist takes over the world is based on a foundation of sand.
          This will wreak havoc on pre-trib believers as they will not realize that prophecy is being fulfilled because nothing is happening according to their understanding. Satan is very tricky about that type of thing and that would be the ultimate fake-out.
          This whole topic is very complex with several possible outcomes depending how we process the data. As a former logic designer and a thoroughbred handicapper, my mind works differently than perhaps say, a minister. It’s like trying to predict a horse race with just the racing form. If that was all you needed, everyone would pick the right horse every time. But there are many other factors to consider including the weather, the competition and the unknown intentions of the trainers. So I tend to think outside the box so bombarding me with tons of scripture has little effect. I’ve already read the “form” and reading it again won’t stop the rain or change the trainers’ mind.
          In this case you need to “read” God’s intentions and look at the state of the world in order to decipher most prophecy. After all, most prophecy is not understood until is has already been fulfilled and maybe that is His intention. That is why Jesus taught in parables – to intentionally confuse most people. And it seems to still be working – as we can see from all the different interpretations.
          So while we will not be changing each others minds here, perhaps others reading this discussion will be prompted to investigate further and come to their own conclusions. None of us are done learning, or at least we shouldn’t be, so I enjoy our blogs and I pray that some good will come from all of it.

    • Hey Norman,

      Have a question for you. Explain the seven letters to the seven assemblies, in the Book of Revelation, Chapters 2 & 3. Especially the wording that starts off each letter; “I know your works”.

      Thanks in advance for your response!

    • Norman,
      Like you I too have studied all the various theories of eschatology and we simply have come to different conclusions for one reason or another. Some bible truths are self-evident but when it comes to prophecy there are many possible interpretations and many learned scholars fail to agree on them. Some people believe the first thing they hear or what they were brought up with and stick with it. Some read everything and never come to any firm conclusions and simply wait to see what happens. As an engineer and designer I tend to use logic as a basis for my beliefs. To me and early rapture is not logical. If you believe the “left behind theories, the righteous are taken to heaven and the rest are left behind. But if you read the rest of the scripture it says that the ones left behind become food for vultures meaning they are destroyed. Therefore the entire earth population would be destroyed after the rapture, so there could be no tribulation. And even if some or all survived, the devil would already have been foiled in his attempt to deceive the faithful since he would be left with nothing but a bunch of unbelievers who need no encouragement from him to turn away from God. The mark of the beast will test God’s people just has he has done many times in the Old Testament. The righteous will be protected like Meshak, Shadrak and Abednigo in Babylon, the Israelites during the 10 plagues in Egypt and Noah’s family in the flood etc. It will be the Christians turn now. The Mark of the Beast is about obeying the commandments (yeah, I know -that’s works), so if all Christians have already been taken to heaven (even the commandment breakers?) there isn’t much point in having the mark. Just punish everyone on earth and be done with it.
      As for judgements, there will be three. When Christ returns (for real – the one and only second coming) the ones that did not have the mark and the righteous dead will rise to meet Him in the air. This will occur on the Feast of Trumpets. Ten days later on the Day of Atonement, the earth will be “reaped or harvested” and the wicked – those too evil to live in Christ’s millennium – will be destroyed. Then at the end of the 1000 years, everyone else will be resurrected and will be judged according to their works (as Revelation says) and will be taught the gospel in order to have the chance to become believers and achieve eternal life. This group includes those who took the Mark of the Beast during the tribulation. Then everyone else will die in the lake of fire.
      Those who believe we go to heaven or hell at the instant of our death are quite mistaken. That would mean “judgement day” occurs every second of every day. Not logical. To this day the Jews don’t believe we go to heaven or hell when we die but only sleep till the resurrection which is what Christ taught. The resurrected do not go to heaven, they return to the earth either before or after the millennium. And the living will not see heaven either. They will change and greet Jesus in the clouds as He is returning to earth. For all we know, heaven is no bigger than a starship and there is simply not enough room for millions of people. In any case, Christ did not teach that we will go there and He ought to know – He was after all, a Jew.
      I guess I just can’t figure why God would take all the time and trouble to show John what he needed to see in order to write the Book of Revelation if we aren’t even going to be here to see any of it unfold. It was written for us – Christians that is. Not the Jews or Muslims that will be left behind. We are supposed to understand it and learn from it so we can be prepared for the end of days. But you say “forget about it” we don’t need to sweat it, well all be gone. Just believe in Jesus, even forget about obeying the commandments, we’re cool. We’re outa here without a worry.
      Sorry but I’m afraid it’s not going to be that simple. It never has been before anywhere else in the bible. It is not logical to think God has all of sudden changed His M.O. He is generous and loving but He’s not a pushover. You’re going to show more than just faith to impress Him.
      And don’t we all want to do just that?

  25. I deleted the first film

  26. 02/23/2011

    Hi Lyndsey,

    I don’t know if you are contending with me or you really do not know. Okay nothing personal against anybody I am only here to GLORIFY CHRIST. Just because you have never heard of this, it does mean it will not happen. The Bible is very clear about the FUTURE. The Bible does not teach anything about ONE general judgment. It is always mentioned in plural form “JUDGMENTS”. For example there will be a judgment in the “AIR” BELIEVERS ONLY (2 Cor. 5: 10 and 1 Cor. 3:10-15 and 1 Thess. 4:16-17), on the “Earth” NATIONS ONLY (Matthew 19:28; 25:31-46), “GREAT WHITE THRONE” LOST or WICKED ONLY (Revelations 20:11-15). As you can see there is more than one general judgment. Now it is my understanding that they differ in 5 general phases. Now please before you make any judgment calls, please read each chapter of each verse completely. But remember it is not me speaking only the WORD of GOD. If you have a problem with this take up with the Holy Spirit, He is our Counselor, John 15:26 and in James 1:5-7, it is made clear, if anyone lacks understanding to ask God. Now I will proceed to explain as best as I can:

    First Judgment: (Past tense)

    Who was judged? All who believe and trusted in Christ thru faith, their sins where forgiven on the cross. (John 3:14-15; 1 Cor. 1:18)

    What time frame in history? 30 A.D.

    Where did it take place? In Israel, Jerusalem, Mt. Calvary. (John 19:7)

    When did this happen? During the time of Roman Empire according to Dr. Luke’s writings during the reign of Tiberius Luke 3: 1 and as documented by Historians Josephus, Tacitus and others.

    Why did this happen? Because we all have fallen short of God’s Glory. (Rom. 3:23). and we do not have nothing good in US to offer a HOLY JUST GOD. (Isaiah 1:5; 64:6; Jer. 13.23) Christ took our well deserved punishment and because of His “FINISHED WORK “on the cross, His death is what JUSTIFIES the believer thru faith alone. Like when the serpents attack Moses camp anyone who looked upon the serpent on the pole would live and they did live, those who looked, so do we live when we look to Christ. (Numbers 21:8-9; John 3:14-15)

    ROMANS 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Romans 8:1, 1 Pet. 2:24 etc.)

    John 14:19-20 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

    SECOND JUDGMENT: (Future Tense)

    Who is to be judged? The believer ONLY by the LORD Himself.

    What time frame? Any time in the future, the event is imminent.

    Where will it take place? At the MERCY SEAT of CHRIST in the AIR. (2 Cor. 5: 6-10)

    Why will this happen? Because it is necessary that our “WORKS” our conduct as Christians be judged. (1 Cor. 3: 10-15) This is not a salvation issue for we were judged at Calvary with Christ (Hebrews10:10)

    When will this happen? Christ returns for His church, the rapture (Catching of the saints). (1 Thess. 4: 16-17, John 14: 1-2; Revelations 4:1 Meta tauta “After these things” church in heaven, 24 Elders verse 4 and chp. 5:9-14)

    THIRD JUDGMENT: (Future Tense)

    Who is to be judged? The JEWS ONLY and the LOST or WICKED left behind going thru Tribulation. (Rev.13; Jeremiah 30:4-7, Daniel 12:1 etc.)

    What time frame? Immediately after the rapture, the Great Tribulation starts for seven straight years worldwide. Its seriousness will be divided into two parts. The second part will be more severe than the first part. Beginnings with the breaking of the seals (no seals mentions the church will be involved) and ends with the judgment VIALS or BOWLS of judgment. (Rev. 6 and 16)

    Where will it take place? World wide.

    Why will this happen? Because the Jews rejected Christ during His earthly ministry, punishment for the wicked for also rejecting the LORD JESUS CHRIST and the mistreatment of Jews. (John 3:18)

    When will this happen? Immediately after Christ returns for His church in the air, the rapture (Catching of the saints), it is IMIMENT. (1 Thess. 4:16-17, Revelations 19:7-9) Also known as Daniels Seventieth Week 490 years (Daniel 9:24-27).

    Fourth Judgment (Future Tense)

    Who is to be judged? The GENTILE NATIONS are judged for their conduct. No one is resurrected. The Books WILL NOT be OPEN.

    What time frame? Immediately after the Great Tribulation. The Jews will not be part of it for they are excluded they will be judged by the 12 Apostles. (Matthew 19:28)

    Where will it take place? On Earth concerning His people. (Jer. 24:31, Joel 3:1, 2, Matthew 25: 31-46)

    Why will this happen? Because of the treatment of Christ Brethren the JEWS.

    When will this happen? At the BEGINNING of the LORD Jesus Christ millennial reign fulfillment of the eternal Davidic Covenant. (2 Sam. 7:4-17 [vs. 13 especially], Isaiah 9:7B)

    FIFTH JUDGMENT: (Future Tense)

    Who is to be judged? The WICKED the LOST ONLY.

    What will take place? The books WILL be OPENED for judgment of the “Wicked” cast into the Everlasting Lake of Fire. (Rev.20:12 and 15)

    Where will it take place? In Heaven before the Great White Throne of GOD. (Rev. 20:11)

    Why will this happen? To judge the Wicked according to their “WORKS” receiving their just reward, “HELL” (Rev. 20:12E and 13C) and to enter into their Eternal Abode for punishment. (Rev. 14: 10-11, Matthew 13:42, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.)

    When will this happen? At the end of the millennium, resurrection of the Wicked (Rev. 20:5)

    Lyndsay, this is just a brief picture of the future events that will take place for the believers, the nations and the lost. It really takes a lot more studying to really understand the “judgments”. It would probably take two days of continuous class on this subject to really learn it or understand most of it. God Bless.



    • Hi Norman
      About your statement “after these things”. John is in heaven but doesn’t see the church in heaven before many things belonging to the tribulation have happened. Where is the church during this interval?
      Also according to my understanding rapture will not happen before man of sin declares himself to be god. 2. Thess. 2:4. Also I understand that for this period of being god he will be given 42 months.

    • the video here makes a lot of sense and puts all of this in a better perspective as to the timing of events….

      • Hi Lyndsey,
        I’ve watched this video a couple of times and there is some very enlightening information about the timing of the Passover and the Jewish calendar etc., but his interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel are way out there. His main assumption that the 70 weeks starts in 1948 “with the command to restore the temple unto the messiah” is not even close. The command referred to the original temple in Jerusalem that was restored around 450BC. This was a message proclaiming the coming of Jesus – His anointing and death. Not his second coming. After all, wouldn’t that be a big thing to skip over? In any case, you have to really stretch the meaning of the words and remove several verses from the prophecy in order for his theory to sound correct.
        According to most people you talk to, the 70 weeks consist of the first 69 leading up to the anointing of Christ by John the Baptist, and then the prophecy jumps forward 200 years to the near future where the last week or 7 years in prophetic time represents the final 7 year tribulation period where the Antichrist appears at the beginning of the period. Even this is wrong. The entire 70 weeks was fulfilled 2000 years ago. The whole way in which everyone expects the tribulation to begin is false. It refutes the idea that a rapture will occur just as the so-called Antichrist comes to power. The fact that there isn’t even going to be an Antichrist will confuse people even more. It’s too complicated for me to explain here so for more info please go to this site:

        God bless.

        • Hey James,

          Hope all is well with you. Do you believe a prophecy can have multiple fulfillments? Such as, part of a prohecy referring to a specific period of time, while another part of the prophecy refers to a different specific period of time, all the while maintaining the integrity of the prohecy? I am not talking about convenient private interpretations here. But rather, what Yah might have purposed in all of this. Not looking to get into a long protracted discussion on all of this, just wondering what you think. I did read some of the things on the link that you posted.

          Good talking to you!!!

          • Hi Al. I’m doing fine. Hope you are also.
            Yes, I believe in double fulfillments of prophesy. It goes with what I call “types.” Like Moses was a “type” of Jesus – a prophetic forerunner.
            For example, the mark of the beast has forerunner types. The furnace in Babylon was a type of the mark. The 3 Jews refused to worship the idol of the king as it was against God’s commandments, so they refused that mark of authority.
            The true Christians during the dark ages were beheaded and burned for not changing their sabbath from Saturday to Sunday as commanded by the council of Laeodicea. These martyrs are even mentioned in Revelation.
            I always look for such things when I consider various interpretations. It is a hallmark of God.
            As for totally different versions of prophecy to both or all come true, I’m not so sure. I think that Satan may counterfeit some prophecy to deceive the very elect. It would be just like him to arrange a scenario where chips will be required by the world bank and everyone will think it is the mark of the beast, but God will not throw us such a curve.
            Unless He has a sick sense of humor…????

  27. Hi Norman
    Still one element concerning the rapture described in the Song of Solomon 2:10-14 “My beloved spake and said to me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For the RAIN is OVER AND GONE.The flowers appear on the earth, the time of singing of the birds is come and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land. The fig tree putteth forth her green figs and the vines with a tender grape give a good smell. Arise my love, my fair one, and come away. Oh my dove that art IN THE CLEFTS OF THE ROCK, IN THE SECRET PLACES OF THE STAIRS, let me see your countenance, let me hear your voice…”
    My understanding of this is that the latter rain is gone and this latter rain is still future but promised in many prophecies. And the bride is caught up during difficult times described similarly in Rev. 6:15-17 “And the kings of the earth and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fallon us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand.
    And right after this the 144000 are sealed and a great multitude is seen in heaven.
    Early 80’s I read Billy Graham’s book about hoofbeats and the main message remained in my mind. These hoofbeats will be seen in many different forms before their final fulfillment.

  28. 02/26/2011

    Hello Al,

    This is in response to your to your email. You’re asking for a lot of details and with the help of God I will explain. If you fill you need more answers, take it to the LORD in prayer. (James 1:7, John 14:13-14). Also it is good to check out in depth what the scripture has to say, 2 Tim. 2:15 always RIGHTLY DIVIDING the WORD of TRUTH. There are several reasons we are told to study scripture:

    1. To obtain an understanding of God’s plan for man.
    2. Prepares us to avoid deceptions or things that are not true such as atheism, evolution and false prophets.
    3. Study of scripture purifies the believers only; the unbeliever will read it and not understand, because: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor. 2: 14) The lost WILL NEVER come to the knowledge of God unless they repent from the heart. True Repentance is a HEART issue not a WORK issue. (Jer. 17:9, Matthew 15: 19-20) Only God Himself can clean our hearts by replacing it with a NEW ONE. (John 3:3 – 7 and 2 Cor. 5: 17)
    4. The book of Revelation should always be INTERPRETED LITERALLY because God’s prophecies are fulfilled literally, word for word.
    5. It also encourages evangelism.
    6. The book of Revelation only offers BLESSING and HOPES to the believer. (Rev. 1:3, Rom. 10:9-10) for the rest of the world the lost, wicked or pagans it should be a very frightening event if they do not repent of their rejection of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Just before the last verse in chapter 1 vs. 19, John give us an outline of the entire book:

    Revelation 1:19

    Write the things which thou hast seen, (past tense) and the things which are, (present) and the things which shall be hereafter: (Future tense)

    Which thou hast seen;
    John was one of the original apostles of the apostolic age and he knew who JESUS was. For he wrote John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Later he wrote in 1 John 1:1 That Which was from the beginning, Which we have heard, Which we have seen with our eyes, Which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life. John was an eye witness, he walked with Jesus for three years knew Him very well and did not believe until after the resurrection, then he believed. (John20:8). This also applies to us today we will not believe until we have been illuminated by the Holy Spirit Himself. (John 3:7-8)

    And the things which are;
    John lived during the Roman Empire which was a very perverted empire. In the last days it will be revived according to Daniel 7:1-8 and Rev. 13:1-8.

    things which shall be hereafter;
    Hereafter is “Meta tauta” in the Greek which means the things which will be after these things on earth and future events to come. The same word is used in Revelation 4:1 mentioned twice at the beginning and at the end of the verse.

    The 7 churches represent completeness and they actually did exist, but they also represent ALL the CHURCHES AT ALL TIMES THROUGHOUT THE END OF THE AGES. All the believers WORKS will be judged. Why is it so hard to understand WORKS has nothing to do with SALVATION? (Titus 3:5, John 3: 5) Salvation belongs to Christ to dispense amongst those who believe.(John 1:12-13) After you are saved thru Grace alone and faith alone then your works count to God, not to get you to heaven but give an account for your works as a child of God. Rom. 5:9 “Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” The following scripture testify that we are saved by FAITH ALONE.

    1 Cor. 3:10 -15
    By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, HIS WORK will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of EACH MAN’S WORK. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, HE WILL SUFFER LOSS; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, BUT ONLY AS ONE ESCAPING THROUGH THE FLAMES.


    2 Cor. 5: 17-21
    Therefore, IF ANYONE IS IN CHRIST, he is a new creation (NOT WE WILL BE, WE ARE PAST TENSE); the old has gone, the new has come! ALL THIS IS FROM GOD (Not from man), who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. WE ARE THEREFORE CHRIST’S AMBASSADORS, (NOT WILL BE, WE ARE NOW) AS THOUGH GOD WERE MAKING HIS APPEAL THROUGH US. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Job 23:10 But HE knows the way that I take; when he has tested me (at the Mercy Seat), I will come forth as gold.

    Jude 23 Snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear–hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

    Romans 2:16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

    Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

    EPHESIAN 6:8 Because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.
    According to the LORD the church of Thyatira (Future apostate church) is going to be the ONLY one going through the Great Tribulation. Rev 2:18- 28 in reference to verse (22).

    To the Church in Thyatira

    18“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
    19“‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
    21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality.
    22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I WILL THROW INTO GREAT TRIBULATION, unless they repent of her works,
    23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works.
    24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden.
    25 Only hold fast what you have until I come.
    26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations,
    27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.
    28 And I will give him the morning star.
    29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

    If your question is;”Will they all be going to heaven the answer is NO.” Thyatira is the ONLY that is told WILL be going to thru GREAT TRIBULATION vs. 22. The rest of the believers will NOT go thru Tribulation or the GREAT Tribulation. No NOT one. The redeemed (US), the believers are in heaven singing to the LAMB for redeeming us. Notice this is after the rapture while the lamb is getting ready to open the Seals. And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9) With Thyatira it is very clear except they repent. I believe this is going to be the ecumenical church of the last day due to its religious adultery, mixing idolatry with works.
    Remember the 7 churches represent completeness and they also represent ALL the CHURCHES AT ALL TIMES THROUGHOUT THE END OF THE AGES. Jezebel was an evil queen of the Old Testament who was killed and eaten by the dogs because of her harlotry, murdering the prophets, black arts and idol worship. (1 Kings 16:28-19:21; 2 Kings 9:7-10). The church of Thyatira, allowed the prophetess Jezebel to compromise the church doctrine by teaching and seducing and committing fornication, along with idol worship. Jesus says she refuses to repent in vs. 21. It is my opinion the scripture leads me to think this future church WILL BE UNREPENTANT AND WILL GO THRU TRIBULATION, because they have a form of godliness but deny the power, 2 Tim 3: 5. IT IS VERY CLEAR WE ARE TO STAY AWAY FROM THEM. We also see that not everybody in the church followed her teaching vs. 24, Jesus is very clear those will not be going thru tribulation. I hope this helps out, unless you are trying to prove me wrong. Not everything I wrote is picture perfect but it is the closest to truth I see in these scriptures.



  29. 02/26/2011

    Hello Sappo,

    I read your concerns on “After these things” and I believe I answered them in the letter to Al, on 02/26/2011. Now pertaining to 2 Thess. 2:4 it says:

    7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so UNTIL HE (HOLY SPIRIT) IS OUT OF THE WAY. 8. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming (second return).

    According to scripture and it cannot be broken, first the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way, we will be taken out of way along with HIM because He lives in US. (1 Cor. 6: 14-15, 19-20, Rom. 8: 9) and then the antichrist (world leader) will be revealed. Not sooner as you mentioned above. The Holy Spirit comes and lives in us when we repent and accept Christ as our only LORD and SAVIOR. Right there at that moment we become a new creation in Christ old things have passed away. Jesus, made a promise and His promises are with UNCONDITIONAL.

    John 10: 27-29
    MY SHEEP hear my voice, and I KNOW THEM, and THEY FOLLOW ME. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, WHO HAS GIVEN THEM TO ME, is greater than all, and NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE FATHER’S HAND. I and the Father are one.”
    Jesus here says very clearly NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. (He is GOD, second person of the Holy Trinity.) The FATHER gave US to HIM and Jesus says very clearly NO ONE IS ABLE TO SNATCH THEM AWAY.

    John 14: 18
    I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
    Very clear He will NEVER abandon US.

    John 17: 20 – 26 JESUS HIGH PRIEST PRAYER
    “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in ME through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in ME “and I AM in YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU have sent ME. I have given them the glory that you gave ME that THEY MAY BE ONE as WE ARE ONE: I in them and YOU in ME. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that YOU sent ME and have loved them even as YOU have loved ME.”
    “FATHER, I want those you have given ME to be with ME where I AM, and to see MY glory, the glory YOU have given ME because you loved ME before the creation of the world.”
    “RIGHTEOUS FATHER, though the world does not know YOU, I know YOU, and they know that YOU have sent ME. I have made YOU known to them, and will continue to make YOU known in order that the love YOU have for ME may be in them and that I MYSELF may be in them.”

    You believe your prayers are answered. YES!! I know for a FACT our LORD’s PRIESTLY PRAYER WAS FULFILLED IN US. He loved us so much that He SECURED SALVATON for ALL the BELIEVERS, past, present and future. He clearly states that we have been GIVEN to HIM by the FATHER. He has made sure YOU and I will be with HIM in heaven.

    Ephesians 1: 11- 14 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of HIS WILL, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were MARKED in him with a SEAL, the PROMISED HOLY SPIRIT, who is a DEPOSIT GUARANTEEING OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THOSE WHO ARE GOD’S POSSESSION—to the praise of his glory

    Here are more scripture references. Read and you will know for sure without the shadow of doubt that your salvation is secure in Christ Jesus forever. Because of His FINISHED work on the CROSS we will be with Him, those that have put their TRUST in HIM. Remember the Church is in heaven praising Christ right before He opens the seals Rev. 5: 9, ONLY The CHURCH (body of believers) was redeem by His Blood, not the angels in heaven.

    Phil. 1:6; 2 Tim. 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Ps. 89:31, 32; 1 Cor. 11:32; Mal. 3:6; Rom. 8:30, 9:11, 16; Rom. 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Heb. 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jer. 32:40; Job 8:13, 14; Matt. 7:22, 23; 1 John 2:3, 3:14, 18, 19, 21, 24, 5:13; Rom. 5:2, 5; Heb. 6:11, 19; Heb. 6:17, 18; 2 Pet. 1:4, 5, 10, 11; Rom. 8:15, 16; 1 John 3:1-3 etc…..

    Again I WILL AFFIRM what I have said all along, the Believer will NOT be JUDGED at “Great White Throne Judgment,” ONLY THE LOST, they will be judged at the “Mercy Seat of Christ.”



  30. Here is MY HORSE…mr sunny….he is the paint🙂 He will be 3 on March 31, 2011….I am a proud momma! lol

  31. Has anyone noticed that the color of the 4 horses are the colors of the Palestinitan flag? Actually, most of Israels enemies have 3 of the four colors.

  32. I see; so I’m supposed to conclude by this article that one of the horses of Revelation has appeared PHYSICALLY – and in a riot in Egypt.

    Um, ok.
    Do you also see images of Mary in slices of toast?

  33. I’m with Reverend Jim (from Taxi?) on this one. Like Sergeant Schultz (from Hogan‘s Heros) used to say, “I see nothing!”
    Sorry, but if this was the actual sign from God, then it sure was lame and insignificant, wouldn’t you agree?

    • james

      I see a horse in the pictures. the question is what caused it to be there?

      • Yeah, well I saw a cloud that looked like a turtle. So what?
        You are trying to equate a cloud of smoke with a sign from God. Not just a little sign but one of the seals of Revelation. There is no reason to make any association between the two.
        Not to mention the fact that the four horsemen of the apocalypse are purely symbolic and have no relation to real horses. We all know that already, so why are you even looking for horses, real or nebulous?
        If you are going to try to relate every abstract image that looks like a horse to a biblical prophetic event you are going to look foolish every time.
        And recent history has already proven that this riot was no more than that – a local skirmish and certainly not the war, famine and pestilences of the apocalyptic horsemen. So why not just admit it and scratch this topic off as a silly idea that went nowhere. Surely you are not still claiming that this was a real sign, so why try to convince us that we should see a horse where none ever existed?
        Sorry, but the whole thing is just silly.

        • james

          If you read the post, I did not form any conclusions. It was an interesting anomaly. so from the logical point of view, what caused the image?

          • First of all, I d not see any image. Certainly not a clear picture of a rider on a red horse or whatever.
            But that aside, what causes a cloud to look like a bunny or anything else? Why dio some people think they saw the devil in the smoke of the World Trade Center collapse? Why do we find the image of Jesus in so many tortillas?
            These are all just random events and they happen millions of times every day if you include every possible image type that is possible. Why does a potato look so much like Jay Leno? CHANCE. It’s as simple as that. Not every puff of smoke or scorch mark on a tortilla is the work of an almighty creator. He has no time nor interest in such trivia.
            When we get to the real seals, eveeryone will see them, not just a few YouTube idiots creating a silly video just to see how many hits they can get.
            I know you like to post a lot of speculative “what if” type of posts, but some of these are just silly and don’t deserve any consideration on a serious bible study site. And this one is near the top of that list. I‘m guessing you are just running out of good topics and sometimes you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel.
            I would suggest you stay away from these YouTube idiots and restrict your topics to true biblical ones. That includes Nibiru and several others here. If this site is to be your legacy and your reputation, you’ve got to be more careful as to what you pick up off the internet.
            Just sayin’

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