Where is the Wilderness?

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The Woman escapes to here during Jacob’s time of trouble.    So,  where is it?

According to Revelation 12:6 and 12:14, the wilderness is a place prepared by God, for nourishment and safety.

In the Exodus, it was also a place for manna, miracles, testing, and the presence of God.

There were some snakes there, but for the most part, it was safe.

For the Jews, it was a location immediately and physically adjacent to the problem they were escaping. They could walk there.

In the tribulation, they will fly there.

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In the latter days, the “Woman” escapes to a wilderness set by God. In revelation 12, this escape is described twice.

The first escape describes natural Israel, the one who gave birth to the Christ.

The second escape describes Spiritual Israel, the who has the testimony of Christ.

The refugees may also have to be aware of “snakes” in this safe haven.

The “earth” also responds to save the woman from the dragon, indicating that the escape effort is supported on a global basis.

The local environment is hostile, as Israel is surrounded by enemies.

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The “Wings of an eagle” is described as the method of escape by Rev 12:14, and may apply to both Natural and Spiritual Israel.

The wings may be physical, and indicate air transport to a safe location.

Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.

In a physical sense, the eagles wings may refer to assistance from the USA, and other western countries, in a joint air lift.

There is also a Christian group called Eagles Wings, who is supportive of Israel. I would expect Christians to be involved.

The wings may be spiritual, and indicate the intervention of the Holy Spirit, to provide protection where one is at.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew [their] strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; [and] they shall walk, and not faint.

In this case, only the Lord can give individual direction as to how to respond.

We know that prayer is abiding under the shadow of His wings, and will give us safety and provision.

See post on

                   Abide

Whether it is physical, spiritual, or both, there is a pattern of deliverance:

Problem   →   Testing    Goal 

There are 3 patterns described in scripture:

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As long as one is on earth, however, and living in the flesh, the direction can be reversed, if one fails to obey God:

Problem → Testing      Goal

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While Heaven or the Messianic kingdom is our ultimate goal, we will only experience our Promised Lands as long as we walk in the Spirit.

If the world is still in us, and we walk in the flesh, then we can slide back into the wilderness, for a time of correction, re-testing, and learning.

Of course, since God loves us, He provides for us while we are there, but it is inferior to the Promised land experiences.

The wilderness helps us experience a rebirth, and a removal of worldly influences.

In the upcoming Great Tribulation, both spiritual and natural Israel will experience “places” of safety, but also purification.

They will both be re-born in a way that brings them to a new level in God.

Natural Israel

Since natural Israel lives in the natural, it will be brought to a natural place.

Since Israel came out of the Sinai wilderness originally, and also from around the world (Diaspora), it may return there temporarily after the abomination of desolation.

Messiah will then collect them on his return.

Revelation also says that the “earth” responds to the flood of the dragon and swallows it up, implying that there could be a large effort from western countries to rescue the Jews, and be part of the Great Eagle that flies them out of Israel.

I would expect the Christians of the earth to be involved here.

Or, Israel could be moved back to the original wilderness, where God once again provides for his people with miracles and his special presence, renewing the spiritual connection between them.

Spiritual Israel

For spiritual Israel, a location of physical safety is less defined, or implied.

But I would expect the same pattern to apply.

Any relocation would be somewhere close to the original residence, just as the Sinai wilderness was adjacent to Egypt.

Or, the wilderness could be right where one lives, but set apart from the world.

Spiritual Israel should focus on walking in the Spirit at this time.

If it does this, it can remain in the Promised Land (presence and protection of Holy Spirit), and may not have to relocate physically.

Even though it has to exist IN the world, does not mean the world needs to be on the INSIDE of them.

We need to function in the world to survive, but not let the world affect our values or behavior.

If Spiritual Israel walks in the flesh, then any physical location could be a danger. It will leave its Promised Land and end up in its own wilderness. God will still provide, but the “snakes” will show up.

The Promised Land of the Spirit has no snakes.!!!

Even Natural Israel understands the spiritual path means discarding much of what the world has to offer.

Temptations to sin, and dangers, will still be present (the “snakes” do not leave).

We must overcome with our faith.

So to survive physically, but most of all spiritually, one needs to seek the Lord with all one’s heart, with all one’s mind, and with all one’s strength.

God must come first in our lives.

Then any wilderness will seem like Heaven.


140 Responses to “Where is the Wilderness?”

  1. “Woman” can only refer to Mary. It is a title of respect, not the flippant word of today. Genesis is clear about the creation of the human soul.

    From the cross our Lord said, “Woman, behold your son; son, behold your Mother.” The word “Woman” is packed with meaning about the fall and redemption, the soul and all mankind.

    I think Jesus knew exactly what he was talking about and meant to be taken at His word.

    • So then this prophecy was fulfilled long ago, even before the prophecy was given? Or will Mary be back and then be persecuted in future times? So is Mary also the woman who rides the scarlet beast later in Revelation? The one with “Mystery Babylon” on her forehead?
      Somehow I don’t think a woman can always mean Mary.

    • Hi Deanna,

      Whenever God uses symbolism, the answer to the meaning behind the symbolism can be found in Scripture. If you will go to Genesis 37:9-10, you will see that God gives the definition behind the sun, moon and stars, which the woman is clothed with in Rev.12:1 and I can assure you that it is not Mary.

      • Mary is the new Eve…WOMAN is a honored word in the Bible, not the redneck slang today. She is the woman the Father gave to the humanity of His Son…His human soul. That, too, is clear from the Genesis account of creation. The soul was made in the image of the Trinity and is uniquely individual.

        Soul twin is better than soulmate, since that term has been devalued so much. To be a human male, Jesus was not a hermaphrodite, yes? If this is distasteful to some people because they prefer females to be impersonal functionaries instead of unique persons, well, take it up with a rabbi.

        • ?

          • What is distasteful is chauvinism and feminism, which are an affront to the respective nature’s of each; therefore have no place in Christ!

        • Hi Deanna and all,

          Um….. I don’t understand what you are trying to say in your reply. Mary was a blessed woman used to bring the Lord into the world in the flesh and that is as far as it goes. She is not to be prayed to, she is not a co-savior nor a co-redeemer, she can’t intercede for us, she has not been asumed up into heaven nor is she the queen of heaven. She was a woman chosen by God to bring Christ into the world and that is what she should be honored for.

          The woman of Rev.12 is said to be clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars. The symbolisms of the sun, moon and stars are exactly the same used in Josheph’s dream found in Gen.37:9-10. Jacob gives gives us the interpretation of each of these symbolisms, as follows:

          “Will your mother (moon) and I (Sun) and your brothers (Eleven stars) actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

          The woman is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars, all three of these match the symbolisms stated in Joseph’s dream and are God’s answer to who the woman in Rev.12 represents. Sine the sun represents Jacob and the moon represents his wife(s) and the stars represent his sons, the twelve tribes of Israel, then the woman as a whole can be none other than the nation Israel. That being said, it is the Nation Israel who is giving birth the Male child. The male child cannot be Jesus as some have interpreted and because Jesus does not fit the criteria of the male child. The dragon, who is identiifed as Satan in Rev.12:7-9, is waiting to devour, that is, to kill the male child as soon as it is born, but before Satan can do that, the male child is caught up to God and to his throne before Satan can harm him. Jesus on the other hand was crucified, buried and resurrected (praise be to God) and did not escape from being killed by Satan and therefore does not fit the criteria of the male child.

          As I have said in previous posts, I whole heartedly believe that the male child is a collective designation representing the 144,000. The 144,000 are those who will come out of Israel (gives birth to) who will come to the knowledge that Jesus is in fact their Messiah. I believe that the giving birth of the male child is a future event which will take place during that last seven years and that somewhere during the middle of that seven, the male child/144,000 will be caught up to God’s throne away from Satan’s reach. The woman/Israel who will have given birth to the male child/144,000, is Israel who, unlike the male child, still do not recognize Yeshua as their Messiah. She will then flee into the desert to that place that God will have prepared for her and will be cared for for a time, times and a half a time, which is that last 3 1/2 years til the Lord returns to set up his kingdom.

          As I stated before, whenever God uses symbolisms, the interpretation of them can be found within his word and therefore, we must interpret the symbolisms of the sun, moon and twelve stars in Rev.12 as the same as those being revealed in Gen.37:9-10. When we assign our own interpretations based on our personal beliefs or on the teachings of others, then the meaning behind the symbolism is lost.

          One of the main problems with many who study the word of God is that, people symbolize what is meant to be interpreted as literal and even when they do interpret something that is meant to be symbolic, they don’t use the interpretation that God supplies in his word. A good example of this, is the claim that the mark of the beast is not a literal mark, the forhead is not a literal forhead nor is the right hand speaking of a literal right hand. Yet, there is no where in the Scripture that would indicate that these are meant to be taken symbolically. Instead they interpret the mention of the forhead to mean (Making a descision) and the right hand to mean (performing action) which takes away the meaning of what the mark is and that being, that during that time, without that mark no one will be able to buy or sell, which is the key to understanding what the mark is.

          Anyway, I hope that this gives you a little more clarity. We must use the interpretations of the symbolic meanings that God supplies elsewhere in his word and not make them up nor adopt the teachings of false teachers.

          • Well said Don. For what it is worth, I totally agree with the above.

            Though it appears that they’re a bunch of people here on this site that wouldn’t agree with us.
            The woman indeed being Israel, that it is not possible for the male child to be Yeshua, (in spite of the criteria that you have provided, and the fact that Revelation is a prophecy, and not a history lesson). Or that the male child would be referring to the 144,000 Jewish believers that come to the Faith some time in the future.

            Oy-Vey, but what can you do? lol.
            Nonetheless I agree.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Precious Savior brother.

            a.

          • Hi Don,
            I’m confused about your interpretation here.
            You say that Jesus doesn’t fit the male child because the male child, the nation of Israel, is caught up to the throne of God before Satan can kill him and they all now sit on the throne of God.
            But they actually haven’t been born yet, and there are only 144,000 of them, so they are really not going to be the nation of modern Israel, right?
            Plus most are from the ten lost tribes – now become Christian nations, not Israelites.
            But when they are born, they will be whooshed up to heaven, and therefore no-one will ever see or hear about them, except perhaps the mothers and delivery room personnel who will witness their birth and instant disappearance.
            Is this the scenario you expect? Is that what we should be looking for in the news to confirm the prophetic fulfillment?
            But then you say the woman (real women – 144,000 of them – those who birthed the male child(s) will flee into the wildernass for 3-1/2 years. But these will be women from all the 12 tribes, from all around the world. How will these women all get together and flee at the same time to the same place?
            And what are the 144,000 used for by God? Does He need help ruling heaven? He’s going to need a bigger throne… like the boat in Jaws.
            The reason I’m asking is I’m planning to write a book on the tribulation and I need to create a believable screenplay. I have to be able to create a scenario and develop it scene by scene without losing the reader or magically jumping to the future and leaving out important steps.
            Now I could do what the “Left Behind” author did and leave out huge sections and like, jump right to the point after the Antichrist has taken power, with no explanation how he got there. I was disappointed that he never tried to explain how the prophecy developed, and then there is the fact that he left out 95% of the actual prophecy, only quoting a few bible verses here and there. But then it wasn’t his intention to illustrate the Book of Revelation, only to create a viable story that people would read and enjoy, so I have to cut him some slack there.
            But as the Soup Nazi once almost said, “NO slack for YOU!.”
            So If this is as obvious to understand as you say, then how it will actually happen should be just as simple to eggsplain, right?
            So let’s have it, If you don’t mind…
            My readers are waiting and they want to be wowed.🙂

            • Hi James and all,

              Let first clarify:

              1. Israel = The nation Israel. I do not believe in a spiritual Israel as being the church as some have interpreted.

              2. Male Child = 144,000 males that come out of the nation Israel, twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes minus Dan, with Manasseh in his place.

              James said:
              “You say that Jesus doesn’t fit the male child because the male child, the nation of Israel, is caught up to the throne of God before Satan can kill him and they all now sit on the throne of God.”

              Rebut:
              The nation Israel is not caught up to God’s throne. Only the 144,000 who have been selected by God, who belong to the twelve tribes and who come out of Israel (birthed) will be caught up. The “Woman” who will give birth to the male child is the nation Israel who will be the group that will remain on earth and be cared for out in the desert as provided by God. This event, along with everything from chapter 4 on has not yet taken place, as it is still a future event. So to recap, it is only the male child/144,000 out of the true nation Israel that will be caught up and not the woman who gives birth to them. Also, giving birth to the 144,000 has nothing to do with actual birth, but is a metaphor for this group of 144,000 emerging out from unbelieving Israel as a select group who recognize that Jesus is the true Messiah.

              James said:
              “Plus most are from the ten lost tribes – now become Christian nations, not Israelites.”

              Rebut:
              While it is true that no one knows who belongs to what tribe, God knows and he has set aside 144,000 as the first fruits out of the nation Israel (Rev.14:4). The fact that the twelve tribes are mentioned by name, save for Dan, shows that this is referring to literal Israel and not the chruch. As I have pointed out many times, the last time the word Ekklesia/church was used is at the very end of chapter 3 and is never seen again and that because the absence of the word infers that she has been removed from the earth by that time. Isn’t interesting that the word Ekklesia was used over and over throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then is never seen again from chapter 4 on …..? So to recap, the reference to the twelve tribes is to the literal twelve tribes and not the church. Remember in Daniel, the angel said:

              “Seventy ‘sevens’ have been determined upon [your people].”

              “Your people,” that is, Daniel’s people would be the nation Israel, not the church. This is the time of Jacob’s trouble and God bringing human goverment to an end, as described by Daniel as the rock that was cut out of the mountain, but not by human hands who falls on the feet of the statue where it smashes to pieces and is blown away by a summer wind never to be found again.

              James said:
              “But when they are born, they will be whooshed up to heaven, and therefore no-one will ever see or hear about them, except perhaps the mothers and delivery room personnel who will witness their birth and instant disappearance.”

              Rebut:
              Again, Israel giving birth to the male child has nothing to do with literal birth, but has to do with a group of 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, who come out of (birthed) the nation Israel. Therefore, none of them will vanish in the delivery rooms since it is metaphoric. Another reason that we know this is because Scripture says regarding the 144,000, “These are those who did not defile themselves with woman, for they kept themselves pure.” And “No lie was found in their mouths,” which would show that this group are all males, ergo , male child and would also show that they will obviously be adults and not infants.

              James said:
              “But then you say the women (Real women – 144,000 of them – those who birthed the male child – will flee into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years. But these will be woman from all the twelve tribes, from all around the world. How will these woman get together and flee at the same time to the same place?”

              Rebut:
              James, have you actually read any of my posts? I have said none of the things that you are claiming. The woman is the nation Israel. She will give birth to 144,000, who are those who will come ouf from among Israel (gives birth to), who will be Christ believing Israelites that belong to the literal twelve tribes of Israel. The 144,000 will be all males. The woman who gives birth to the male child is literal Israel and she is the one that will be cared for out in the desert for that last 3 1/2 years. The woman fleeing out into the desert is synonymous with Mt.24:15 when Jesus tells them that when they see the abomination standing in the Holy place not to return from the field to their houses to get their cloaks and for those who are on their roof tops not to go down and take anything out. In other words, when you see that abomination standing in the Holy Place, don’t hesitate, get out now! Furthermore, the 144,000 don’t necessarily have to be in the same place in order to be caught up, but could be anywhere on the earth.

              The book of Revelation as illustrated in Rev.1:19 is divided up into three sections:

              1. Write what you have seen
              2. What is now
              3. What will take place later.

              The “Now” is represented by the letters to the seven church, which also represents the entire church period. We are therefore still in the “Now” part of the time line. Once God is done building his church, the resurrection of dead believers with take place, followed immediately by those believers who are still alive as represented by John hearing the voice that sounds like a trumpet (trumpet call of God) and is caught up to heaven (Rev.4:1-2).
              From this time forward, the word Ekklesia/church disappears from the narrrative and is replaced soley by the word Hagios/saints. As a side note, the church is never referred to as Saints throughout chapter 1 thru 3.

              The “What must take place later” begins in chapter 4:1, which follows the “Now”, that is, it follows the church period, meaning that the “What must take place later” begins after the church period. The main theme of the “What must take place later” is the wrath of God as represented by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments followed by the Lord’s physical, visual return to the earth to set up his kingdom bringing in the end of the age.

              I hope that this has cleared up any confusion.

          • O.K. Tom,
            So If I got this right, the 144,000 are alive right now, waiting to be raptured from the country of Israel. So we should look for a news event where all these people suddenly go missing. Hope Israel doesn’t suppress the story.
            Only If I understand you right, all Christians will have been raptured themselves by then so we’ll miss it, unless heaven has Wi-Fi and YouTube and we can take our laptops with us.
            Looks like we’ll miss the whole Book of Revelation. Maybe the Buddhists will make good use out of it after we disappear.
            But here’s why I got confused. You said the man child could not possibly be Jesus because he was killed by Satan and not raptured.

            Rev 12:4
            And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
            Well, this obviously refers to the holy family’s flight to Egypt after Herod tried to kill all the male babies after the birth of Christ. Why would Satan try to kill 144,000 Jewish babies (or whatever) maybe 10-20 years ? ago? Why? Jesus I can see, but just random babies? So then the prophecy has started after all, right?

            Rev 12:5
            And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
            O.K., why are 144,000 Jews going to rule all nations? I thought Jesus was going to rule the nations when He returns. Is he going to be an absentee landlord? Off to Nibiru for an extended vacation? And where did it say that Satan killed him first? It only says that he was born to rule all nations, and that He was caught up to heaven to His throne. Both of these are true If applied to Jesus. You can not infer a time line here. Doing so does not prove your theory, only that you found it necessary in order to make your point. This is a common tactic but it is not valid.

            Rev 12:7
            And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
            Rev 12:8
            And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

            This clearly describes the fall from heaven of Satan and his demon angels. So this hasn’t happened yet, right? But the New Testament clearly states that Satan is the God of this world. That was in the first century. What, is he an absentee landlord too?

            And please explain these verses:

            Rev 12:15
            And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
            (The flood from Satan’s mouth are words. The woman is the true church – spiritual Israel If you like. When Satan failed to defeat Jesus and was consequently kicked out of heaven (31AD) he decided to corrupt His church with a flood of false words and doctrines (Babylon) This obvious succeeded.

            Rev 12:16
            And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
            The true church was persecuted by the Holy Roman Empire for 1260 years (not literal days – this is prophecy).

            Rev 12:17
            And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
            After the main church was corrupted by Satan’s flood, there is now left only a small remnant who still obey the commandments – all of them. Less than 1% of today’s Christians.
            This verse makes no sense If it is literal Israel. They don’t fit the flood and they are not a remnant and they don’t have the testimony of Jesus.

            Maybe you can finagle the verses to try to make them fit your theory, but the fact is, the chapter is about the birth of Christianity and its struggle to survive the last two millennium. It is very simple and the verses completely fit the facts.
            Now you can claim that is just a coincidence and that the true meaning is something that has nothing to do with the author of Revelation, but I will never buy it. Your concept is full of holes and simply makes no biblical sense.
            You failed to explain what God is trying to accomplish under your theory. What is His purpose? My readers will be biblically trained and they will want to know the mind of God.
            Do you know it? If so, please share with us.
            Thanks.

            • Hello again,

              First James, are you responding to Tom or to me, Don? The reason I ask is because the email states that you are responding to Don, but your greeting at the beginning of the post is to Tom. Anyways, allow me to further comment:

              James said:
              “O.K. Tom, So If I got this right, the 144,000 are alive right now, waiting to be raptured from the country of Israel.”

              Rebut:
              If we are as close to the prophecies of Revelation being fulfilled as I believe we are, then yes, those 144,000 would be alive today. However, they are not necessarily residing in Israel, as the Scripture is silent regarding this. There is just no scriptural support to conclude that these 144,000 that come out of Israel will actually be living in Israel when they are caught up. After all, christians will be spread out all over the world when the resurrection and catching takes place. Furthermore, when these 144,000 are sealed with the seal of God in their forheads, it may not even be known to them when it happens. Scripture just does not elaborate.

              James said:
              “So we should look for a news event where all these people suddenly go missing.”

              Rebut:
              As I stated earlier James, the inhabitants who are here during the time when the 144,000 are caught up would probably notice this event (Satan certainly will), but I don’t believe that the church will be here to see it, as they will have been caught up themselves 3 1/2 years prior to this event. As I said, I believe that the “What must take place later,” in Rev.4:1-2 brings and end to the “Now”, which represents the church period, ergo, the church is gone.

              James said:
              “Looks like we’ll miss the whole Book of Revelation.”

              Rebut:
              I hope so James, because the majority of the book of Revelation from the opening of the first seal through the trumpets and bowl judgments are the wrath of God and I for one would not want to be here for that. In Luke’s version of Mt.24, Jesus tells us to watch and pray always so that we may be able to escape all that is about to happen. I believe the escape that Jesus is speaking of is being ready so that we may be changed and caught up when he descends from heaven and meets us in the air with the resurrected (1 Thes.4:13-18). We are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God and that is exactly what the seals, trumpets and bowls are about. I don’t separate tribulation from wrath as some do, because the wrath of God is the theme of the entire time frame with tribulation caused by the beast and the false prophet taking place within God’s wrath. That being said, I believe that from the first seal to the seventh bowl is all considered to be the wrath of God.

              James said:
              “And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Well, this obviously refers to the holy family’s flight to Egypt after Herod tried to kill all the male babies after the birth of Christ.”

              Rebut:
              Why would you apply this to the event to king Herod? Your own example above shows that this could not be referring to Jesus. What does the Scripture say? The dragon is waiting for the woman to give birth and she gives birth to a male child and what happens? Did the dragon get the male child? no! Because it will be caught up to God’s throne before he can harm it. Did this happen to Jesus? No! Jesus may have escaped Herod, but ultimately and as planned, was crucified. So, if the male child is caught up to God’s throne without being devoured, that is, without being killed, how can this be referring to Jesus who was crucified?
              I believe that the event of the male child being caught up to God’s throne will be just like those living believers in the church who will be changed in a moment and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The point is that, the male child escapes without any harm at all and Jesus did not.

              James said:
              “Why would Satan try to kill 144,000 Jewish babies?”

              Rebut:
              As I have already said James, this group of 144,000 are not babies, as it is said of them, that they did not defile themselves with woman and no lie was found in their mouths. These are adult males. Please keep these things in mind so that I don’t have to continue to go over them, as I have already told you that they are not babies.

              James said:
              “Ok, why are 144,000 Jews going to rule all nations? I thought Jesus was going to rule all nations when he returns?”

              Rebut:
              James, the statement: “He will rule all nations with an iron scepter”
              is said three different times. It is promised to the overcomer as mentioned in the letter to the church of Thyatira (Rev.2:26-27). It is mentioned of the male child in Rev.12. And it is mentioned of John’s description of Jesus descending to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom (Rev.19:15). So, to recap, ruling the nations with an iron scepter is said of all believers who overcome, to the male child and of Jesus himself. Both the church and the male child/144,000, will rule the nations with an iron scepter under the Lord’s authority. And if I am not mistaken, I believe that after the great tribulation saints are resurrected in Rev.20:4, they are also said to reign with Christ during that thousand years (Rev.20:4).
              So, that’s 3 different groups who will reign along with Christ during the millennial period.

              I will stop here for now, because it is getting late, but I will continue tomorrow.

              • Hi Don,

                Hope you are well.

                You believe that believers will escape the wrath of God, and so do I, at Armageddon…but you state:
                “I don’t separate tribulation from wrath as some do, because the wrath of God is the theme of the entire time frame with tribulation caused by the beast and the false prophet taking place within God’s wrath. That being said, I believe that from the first seal to the seventh bowl is all considered to be the wrath of God”

                If you are saying that there will be no Christians on earth at the time of the beast, then what is the purpose of the mark, since those left on the earth will be unbelievers anyway, who have lost their chance of salvation, therefore, all the events of the tribulation would have no relevance to believers, so why would God bother documenting them in the first place.? Who do you think the beheaded ones are?

                What you and many others are suggesting is that salvation is possible after Jesus has gathered his flock. Where in scripture does it say that salvation is possible by any other means than through Christ, because that is what the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is effectively affirming.

                After Jesus has gathered his flock, there is no longer provision for salvation, just as was the case when the doors of the ark were shut.

                Why do so many insist that God is going to rain lifeboats down from heaven after He has “closed the doors”, when scripture clearly does not teach this.

                I hope I have understood your statement, correctly; if not, please disregard my my response

                Blessings to you.

                • Hi Richard,

                  Hope that you don’t mind me responding briefly here Don?

                  Richard, neither Don nor myself believe that there won’t be any that happened to believe in Yeshua, on the earth at this time when the beast etc. is revealed.
                  There are clearly “wise and foolish virgins”. We believe that there is ample evidence to suggest that the Ekklēsia, or true Assembly, (or church), will be removed from the planet as 1, (or the first) of a group of 3 “firstfruits” before the 1st seal is opened by Yeshua.

                  The mark will be utilized to place those that believed, but were foolish to be in a precarious position. Do they accept the mark and worship the beast, and his image to live, or deny the mark and be persecuted and perhaps die?

                  I have to head out, or I would be more than happy to provide to you all of the scripture which supports this premise. Perhaps Don will elaborate when he responds if he has the time. If not, I will try to get back to you again later this evening.

                  Pray that you are well.
                  Be Blessed in Yeshua our Precious Savior and Glorious KING of kings.
                  Amen.

                  • Thanks Alienated,

                    The only scriptures required would be proof that salvation is possible after Jesus has gathered those who died in him together with those who are alive in him on his return. (1 Thes. 4 16:17)

                    Thanks..Be blessed.

                    • Hi Richard,

                      I’ll reply at the bottom for you, because it is getting skinny here.
                      Also that will probably make it easier for Don as well when he replies.

                • Hi Richard and all,

                  Hope all is well with you.

                  Richard said:
                  “Who do you think the beheaded ones are?”

                  Answer:
                  “Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

                  He answered, “Sir, you know.”

                  And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

                  Richard, there will most certainly be christians here during that time, but not the group know as the church. The great tribulation saints who are never referred to as the church, but Hagios/saints will be those who will be beheaded and that because of their testimony for Christ and the word of God and who will not worship the beast, nor his image nor receive his mark. Notice in the Scripture above that after the elder asks him “These in white robes–who are they?” John doesn’t recognize them and says to the elder “Sir, you know.” So, John did not recognize this group as the church. These will most likely be people who were believers, but were living in the flesh and not ready when the Lord called, as well as others who are were on the fence regarding Christ. In any case, these are those who get their act together, albeit now they will have to go through the great tribulation. If you will notice, not only is the purpose of the plagues to pour God’s wrath out, but by those plagues he is also looking for those who will repent and give him glory (Rev.9:20,16:8-11). By these plagues, God is still trying to get them to repent. He even sends an angel to warn them about what will happen to anyone who receives the mark or worshiops him or his image (Rev.14:9-12). So, there will be people who will be saved during this time frame, but they will have to go through the horrors of the wrath of God and all that is happening on earth regarding the beast and trhe false prophet. These great tribulation saints are also those mentioned in Dan.7:25 and Rev.13:7 who the beast will have authority over for that last 3 1/2 years. In closing, the great tribulation saints are a completely different group than the church.

                • Me again,

                  In addition to what I wrote above, I’d like to add that, the very fact that the elder is asking John who these are in white robes and where they came from, these would show that this group is not the church. Otherwise, if it was only the church that was here during God’s wrath, then why would the elder need to raise the question to John as to who they were? This is obviously a different group. These great tribulation saints are also the ones shown being resurrected when Christ returns to the earth as shown in Rev.20:4. We also know that this group is not the church because, the church/bride is following behind Christ riding white horses and wearing their white clothing as seen in Rev.17:14, 19:6-8 and Rev.19:14. How can the church be those who are being resurrected in Rev.20:4, when it shows us returning with Christ as he descends to earth?

                  The wrath of God is coming upon those who continue to reject his offer of salvation and who continue living according to the flesh. The true church will have already repented and have been watching and waiting for the Lord’s return, so what would be the purpose of building his church and then sending it through his wrath? Since the believers in the church have already repented and believe in Christ whom the Father sent, then we have already done what he wanted us to do and that is to believe in his Son. Also, why would Jesus tell those who believe in him to watch and pray always so that we will be able to escape the things that are coming upon the earth, if in fact there is no escape?

                  Just some things to think about

              • Don,
                So it looks like I finally got what you’re saying. As I originally said, the 144,000 are NOT from the nation of Israel, but from all over the world. That contradicts what you said to begin with, that they were the nation of Israel.
                So there will not be any prophetic fulfillment in the news at all… we will only experience the rapture, then everything else will happen. I’ll pack my laptop right away.
                As for your statement, “So, if the male child is caught up to God’s throne without being devoured, that is, without being killed, how can this be referring to Jesus who was crucified?”, exactly where does it say that the male child was caught up BEFORE he was killed? You are adding text to the prophecy that is not actually there. Not only shouldn’t you do that in order to make a point, you are warned by Jesus not to add to this book.
                As for the 144,000 reigning with Christ in the millenial kingdom, that is right, but they do so from earth. The male child (singular) ascends to the throne (singular) of GOD, in heaven. Humans don’t go to heaven when they die, they wait for the resurrection. When we are changed, we die, but we do not go to heaven. We meet Jesus at His coming and rule with him for 1000 years – on earth. Heaven is only for God and His angels. That is from the mouth of Jesus Himself.
                You have hammered rev12 so much it is barely recognizable.
                Rev1-3 is about the church. Rev12-22 is about the church.
                And my final remark is this. According to you, first the church is raptured. Then, sometime later, the 144,000 (Christians, right?) are also raptured. How come they missed the first rapture? They appear to be more righteous than the first batch. Why keep making all these trips from heaven to grab bunches of people? God doesn’t need them to rule in heaven does He? I hope He’s no getting ready to retire or something.
                It is clear that God has a purpose for the 144,000, but there is no proof of what that purpose is, only guesswork and speculation. Unless I am one of them, I’m not going to worry over His divine purpose for them. But they are mentioned in another chapter in detail. God does not have to repeat Himself here. And If I’m not mistaken, there was no break between rev12 and 13, therefore 12 happens first. But rev13 is history, and so must be Ch12.
                And here is why I will never buy into your theory: Rev 12 is the most glorious chapter in Revelation. It depicts the birth of Jesus and His triumph over Satan and His demons and the taking of His throne in heaven, which is what He was born for.
                You have reduced all of that to some piddley future event that no-one will witness or even understand.
                In effect, you have made it meaningless.
                Believe it If you must, but I will use it to praise Jesus instead.
                Bless.

                • James, you are making me tired, ha, ha! You still have not understood.

                  You said:
                  “Don, So it looks like I finally got what you’re saying. As I originally said, the 144,000 are NOT from the nation of Israel, but from all over the world.”

                  Please let me make this very clear:

                  Male child/144,000 = Twelve thousand from each of the twelve tribes of literal Israel (minus Dan). To be clear, they come out of the nation Israel (gives birth to) as a group who, by the grace of God, recognizes that Jesus is their Messiah. Whether or not they are all in the physical location of Jerusalem or scattered around the world when they are caught up can not be determined and that because Scripture does not expound on this.

                  The woman = The literal nation of Israel

                  The male child/144,000 = twelve thousand from each of the literal tribes of Israel who come out from the unbelieving, still law abiding nation of Israel, who may or may not be physically located in the city of Jerusalem, but could possibly be anywhere in the world at the time that they are caught up to God’s throne.

                  You said:
                  “where does it say that the male child was caught up BEFORE he was killed?

                  Answer:
                  The Scripture implies it when the dragon is angry because the male child was snatched up to God’s throne and so he goes after the woman/Israel who gave birth to him. When the dragon goes after the woman, he sends out water like a river (an army) to overtake the woman, but God opens up the earth like with Korah and swallows the army up. The dragon will not be able to get the male child or the woman who gave birth to him and so he goes to make war against the rest of the womans offspring, the great tribulation saints. The fact that the male child was snatched up to God and to his throne infers that the dragon did not devour (kill) him.

                  You said:
                  “Humans don’t go to heaven when they die, they wait for the resurrection.”

                  Um, this is incorrect James, for when a person in Christ dies, Scripture states that their spirits/souls go to be in the presence of Christ, while those who have rejected Christ, their spirits/souls go into Hades awaiting the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15) If what you say is true, then my next question would be, who then appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration? That would be Moses who was long dead and buried. Who are those souls who are under the altar at the opening of the 5th seal. It is said of them, that they were slain for their testimony and for the word of God. Yet, here their souls are asking the Lord questions and are also given white robes to wear. Pretty good for dead guys who are supposed to be unconscious in the dust of the earth, don’t ya think? And what about Jesus when he told the thief who was crucified next to him when he said “Today you will be with me in paradise.” “?” How could he be with Jesus in paradise when they were both killed that day? The answer is that, Jesus took his soul with him to that place of paradise which was in the heart of the earth were father Abraham and Lazarus were, as well as the rest of the OT saints.

                  It is the body that goes into the ground and waits for the resurrection, where the spirit/soul goes to be in the presence of Christ as can be seen by the following verses:

                  “Therefore we are always confindent and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away form the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and [at home with the Lord]. (2 Cor.5:6-7)

                  Also

                  “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to [depart and be with Christ] which is better by far; but it is necessary fro you that I remain in the body.” (Phil.1:22-24)

                  In both of the verses above, Paul demonstrates that, at the time of death, the soul/Spirit [departs] from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. These passages would have no meaning if the body, soul and spirit all slept in the dust of the earth. At the time of the resurrection, the Lord will bring with him the souls of those who have died in him and they will be reunited with their resurrected bodies. Lazarus, Abraham and the rich man are proof of this. For both died! Lazarus went to a place of paradise in the heart of the earth and the rich man went to Hades, which was across from that place of paradise. Both had died and yet there they were having a conversation. The rich man said that he was in torment in flame, which illustrates that he could feel pain. He could also see and that because he was looking at father Abraham and Lazarus by his side. Neither could pass over to either side because of a great ravine or gulf that was separating the two areas. This shows that the dead are not unconscious or unaware after death. It is only the body that sleeps in the dust of the earth and not the soul. I have many more Scriptures that demonstrate this fact if you would like to see them.

                  You said:
                  “Rev.12-22 is about the church.”

                  Rebut:
                  I challenge you to find the word church anywhere in the narrative after chapter 4:1 and before 22:16. The church is mentioned one more time in Rev.22:16 which is outside of the narrative. But, you will not find the word church anywhere between chapter 4:1 and prior to chapter 22:16. From chapter 1 thru the end of chapter 3, the word Ekklesia/Church is used over and over again, but you will not find the word Hagios/saints in any of those chapters. Likewise, after the end of chapter 3, you will never see the word Ekklesia/church to describe believers. The reason for this is to show separation between the church and the great tribulation saints.

                  Regarding the 144,000, chapter 7 describes their sealing while on the earth. Chapter 12 is a description that Israel gave birth to them meaning that they are israelites that have come to faith in Jesus. Chapter 14 shows them after they have been redeemed.

                  AS for resurrections, there are 4 mentioned, Jesus being the first fruits, the church, the two witnesses and the great tribulation saints who come to life as seen in Rev.20:4. There are two groups that are mentioned as being caught up, the living believers at the time the resurrection of the church that takes place and the male child during the beginning of the great tribulation. The male child is a collective name for the 144,000 and that because they are said to be all male, ergo, male child.

                  • Well Don, I am tired as well.
                    I have had this same discussion many times in the past and as we have demonstrated, the replies get longer and longer as more scriptures are referenced. At this point it may be counterproductive to try to say much more on this topic. I have studied all the verses you referenced and you have not shown me anything I have not already studied in detail without any reason to change my mind.
                    So before we end up boring everyone else to tears, perhaps we should just let everyone else make up their own minds and sit back and wait to see how prophecy unfolds.
                    I just feel sorry for all those who are expecting to be raptured away before anything bad happens. When the shirt hits the fan they will be scrambling to figure out what to do.
                    On the other hand, If there is a rapture, won’t I be pleasantly surprised!
                    Well I’ll be ready in either case.
                    Bless

                  • James,
                    Bewildered scrambling unlikely during the sudden ONE SINGLE HOUR fiery fall of Babylon.

                    Truthful part of the “Pre-Trib Rapture” is that it is a nuclear holocaust where millions of disobedient Christians are instantly vaporized according to Rev18:4b, caught up to meet the Lord in the air within a radioactive 10,000 degree, 500mph mushroom cloud updraft, forever to be with the Lord, never having to suffer wrathful temptation to ‘take the mark’ during the wrathful 3.5 years which immediately follows.

                    The Post-Tribulation “Resurrection of the Dead” is the only ‘Good and Honorable type of rapture.’ And there is ONLY ONE of those which occurs at the last trumpet.

                    • Do you mean the Pre-Trip Rupture?! God is honourable!!!….plain and simple!!!..

                      Bless you!

                  • Indeed.

                    Beautiful creator God is the epitome of HONOR.
                    Glorious and radiant in excellence is He.
                    May our lips speak truth about Him!

                    May we all bow low before this generous & humble One who by comparison makes the highest glory of human flesh to be a putrid, fading thing. Amen.

    • In respects to the title of this page, “Where is the Wilderness”, wouldn’t Isaiah 65: 10. and Hosea 2:15., suggest that Israel in Revelation 12 flees to the “Valley of Achor”?

      Praise Yeshua our Glorious KING of kings.
      Amen.

  2. I have read that they will flee to Petra.

    • I read that too.

    • I read that also, but it was an interpretation, but not in scripture.

      Imagine, the entire country of Israel cannot fit into one small town made of stone.

      • Regarding Petra, this is built purely on conjecture, as there is nothing in Scritpure that would support this. Someone came up with this theory years ago and people just adopted this belief and it has remained until this very day. Scripture states that the woman is cared for out in the desert for a time, times and a half a time (3 1/2 years), also described as 42 months, but doesn’t present anymore information as to the location.

    • Israel’s total population currently is 9 million. Zec13:8&9 says a third will live and 3 million can fit in the general area called Petra. But in scripture, Petra is written of in several places, mostly but not exclusively in the Old Testament: Dan11:41, Ps60:8,9, Ps108:9-10, Isa16:1-4,, Deu33:2,, Mic2:12 (Bozrah near Petra), and Isa63:1. Petra is in the highest mountain range nearest to Jerusalem and Jesus said; Luk21:21 “flee to the mountains” and the context in which Jesus spoke is EXACTLY the same as Zec14:1-5 where it is written for people to FLEE from Jerusalem, which occurs at Mat24:15,16 Abomination setup (which is at the beginning of the wrathful 3.5 years). Those who flee to the Petra mountains “wilderness” will be Rev12 fed and protected during the following 42 months until Jesus Isa63:1 arrives at Bozrah to rescue his remnant and begin is bloody judgement march northward toward what most commonly recognized as Rev16 final Battle of Armageddon, the winepress of God.

      All of prophecy can be considered conjecture. Those who interpret it as such have decided for themselves to eliminate specifics which temporarily seems to relieve them of obligatory responsibility.

  3. Great post, presenting the spiritual realm as more real than a lot of Hebrews running for the hills.

    We are saved by the Blood of the Lamb, yet I don’t see blood?

    It is spiritual as well as physical. The events on the Cross shed the precious Blood of the Lamb. Today, His Blood covers me so that I am presented Righteous before Father God.

    The wilderness in Rev is a place that is “spiritual” more than geographic.

  4. Hi Marianne and all,

    Just FYI, the description of the woman in Rev. 12:1-6 and 12:13-17 are of the same woman, which is literal Israel. Rev.12:1-6 is a summary, introducing the woman and the dragon, where Rev.12:7-17 is a detailed account of the woman/Israel and the dragon/Satan.

    The mention of her offspring, those who keep the testimony of Jesus, are Israel’s spiritual offspring (Gentiles), which are the great tribulation saints of whom the beast is given power to make war against and to conquer them
    (Rev.13:5-7). Just as we who have the same faith as Abraham makes us his spiritual children and he our spiritual father in faith, so are the great tribulation saints Israel’s offspring. For Israel does not keep the testimony of Jesus, but I believe they will confess him sometime during her time in the desert during that 3 1/2 years. In fact, they would have to, because Jesus said to them, “You will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’ ”

    Furthermore, if you are claiming by saying “The first escape describes natural Israel, the one who gave birth to the Christ” inferring that the male child is representing Christ, this would be incorrect, as you would be hardpressed to related Jesus with the Male child.

    Israel is about to give birth to the male child and the dragon/Satan is waiting there before her to devour (Kill) the child as soon as it is born. The woman/Israel, gives birth to a son, but before the dragon can do anything to the Male Child, it is “caught up” to God and to his throne. The words here “Caught up” is the same word used to describe the living church being caught up, which is “Harpazo”, that is, force suddenly exercised or a snatching away. This male child is caught up in the same manner as those of the church who are still alive at the time when that phase of the first resurrection takes place.

    This was not the case with Jesus! In keeping with the Scripture, Jesus would have been considered to have been devoured and that because he was not caught up to God’s throne before the dragon/Satan could do anything to him, as he was crucified fulfilling prophecy. The male child gets away by being caught up by God before the Satan can do anything to him, where Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected, ergo, the male child is not representing Jesus.

    • Who do you think the male child is?

      • Hi Marianne and all,

        Excuse me, but I’m still catching my breath from laughing. Sweden? Turkey? Jesus in the Vatican and needing to be reborn as a Christian? If Jesus was in the Vatican, I’m sure that his first order of business would be to bring down that detesible 13th century BC Egyptian obelisk from the middle of St. Peter’s square and then destroy Roman Catholicism, the other woman. Oh wait! He is going to do that during the last 3 1/2 years via the beast and those ten kings. Never mind!

        Now to answer your question Marianne, I personally believe that the Male Child is a collective name for the 144,000, the first fruits out of Israel. I believe that there is a small hint given to this fact in Rev.14:4:

        “These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.”

        In stating that these 144,000 did not defile themselves with “Women”, this would infer that they are all males, ergo, the Male Child. I believe that these 144,000, the first fruits who come out of Israel (gives birth to) are in fact the male child. But that is just my interpretation on the subject. As I said earlier though, anyone would be hardpressed to make Jesus synonymous with the Male Child for the reasons given earlier and that because He just doesn’t fit the criteria. For the Male Child will escape Satan, being changed in a moment and caught up to God’s throne without harm, where Jesus was crucified and resurrected and thank’s be to God that he was or we would all still be in our sins and lost!

        As I also said, Rev.12:1-6 is a summary of the woman/Israel and the dragon/Satan, where Rev.12:7-17 is a more detailed account of those events, which are still future.

    • I am sure no one is going care to hear this, but, Israel is indeed the woman whose child (the Branch) was caught up in the clouds as scripture says in the same manner we will see Him return. The wilderness that Israel was nurtured in has been the western nations after Rome, but, especially the last few hundred years was I think from the persecutions from Europe was kind America who nurtured the Jews almost as a Nation, until Israels’ restoration in 1948. America the eagles wings, has up until now been blessed for doing so, but, as soon as interferrence happens against what God has been doing to His Beloved People and Nation,Israel fulfilling His Prophecies, He rebukes those who touch her (Bush/Obama/Carter. Of course the 1400 year oppressors from Islam, Russia, Germany etc Rome/Papacy, shall now see judgement and wrath and the giant image of Daniel has begun to be destroyed together as the scripture says they will only we just begin to see in started from the first head of the Ottomans destroyed in 1917 to1948 – 1967 – and soon again we will see Gods fury come up for the nations undending hatred to Jews, and I think this may include Christians as their churches and people are already being burned and slaughtered throughout Islamic lands as Jews and Synagogues were destroyed in Islamic lands,and in these last hundred years. especially after Israel became a nation,

  5. Rev. is just plans. The first half of the 12 chap describes Jesus second birth as a Christian. The plan is that When Jesus will be reborn, he will be brought to the Vatican (Gods throne) when he is 3,5 years old. And his mother will be brought to the wilderness which is Sweden. Sweden was wilderness year 80-90 when Rev. was written. The plan was that Jesus should have grown up in the Vatican. But Jesus has destroyed this himself so only a part of the Rev chap 12 is fullfilled. Jesus was born the 5 jan 1974 in the morning. Just like the chap 12 desribes the sun and the moon was visible then. The reason why the woman has 12 stars over her head is that Jesus and Jacob Israel is the same person. It´s the 12 stars father who is reborn. This birth occured in Turkey that´s why all the messages about future in Rev is sended only to Turkish Churches. That was a plan to keep the Churches Christians but even that part of Turkey became muslims. So Jesus mother is a muslim with hebrew blood. That´s why she can´t follow him to the Vatican so God must prepare a place for her. The beginning of chap 12 also describes that Jesus will rule the world with Iron hand. Ezekiel gives as info that the holy land is given to Jacob in future. Abraham and Isak are deleted. We can not have 2 kings so Jesus and Jacob is the same person. Beginning of Rev 12 has already been fullfilled.
    This is the truth!

    • Adam where do you get these ideas from. Jesus reborn as a christian is nonsense. Jesus died, was resurected and sits at the right hand of his Father in Heaven. Your idea negates the whole Gospel. Jesus and Jacob(renamed Israel) are two different individuals born hundreds of years apart, Yes Jesus was one of Jacobs descendants through Judah and Tamar his daughter in law, but that is as far as the relationship goes.
      If Jesus’ mother Mary is a Muslim, then she would be associated with a group of people who are descended from Canaan, a person cursed by Noah to be a servant to all people. Study your Old Testament. Isaac of the royal blood was guided in his marriage by his parents to avoid the curse of Cain. Also Jacob was guided by his mother to avoid the same curse. Jacob married two women, sisters, and had two conqubines, from these four women came the twelve tribes, all descended from Abraham, and so partakers of the covenant between G-D and Abraham.
      How does the Vatican come into it ? The RC Church, is generally considered the Whore of Babylon, sorry all you R.C.’s and other than a tool of Satan has no part in the restoration of the Gospel. The restoration brought about by the stone in Danial’s dream cut without hands. Without hands means restored by G-D not man, John saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven having or proclaiming the new and everlasting Gospel. In the midst of heaven, means here on Earth not the heaven where G-D dwells. What would be the use of proclaiming the Gospel in the spiritual realm, its needed here on earth. More study Brother, more study.

    • Adam the first 7 churches in Asia Minor during the Byzantine Empire was not muslim or Turkey. It was conquered by the muslim hordes after the spread of Christianity and there was no birth of Christ in Turkey. Everything else you have said is a ludicrous distortion of scripture which makes me suspect you are not what your name may claim unless you are an athiest or an Islamic cyber terrorist come in to oreate and disseminate confusion. I have seen this done many times. So I will say no more to your absurd statements. With such awful communication I would say your legitimacy is in question. Your reference to Mary being Muslims would point out your distortions come from Islams’ distortions of the Holy Scriptures.

      • Marie Jean
        The book Rev speaks about future and it is written in year 80-90.
        I didn´t said Jesus birth 2000 years ago was in Turkey. I say that Jesus is living on earth today and he was born in 1974 in Turkey of a new woman. A muslim woman. The 7 churches that got the letters in the book Rev is in western Turkey today. I know the history. The reason why only this seven churches got letters was that we tried to get this area Christian forever because Jesus mother Virgin Mary moved to todays turkey then Efesos. Do you understand what I try to explain?
        Jesus is reborn in the same blood again. To make it more complicated I can reveal that Jesus/Jacobs mothers family in this life comes from a nomadic family.

        • I do hear what you are saying and it is pure bumkem…lies…deceptions… absurd and ridiculous. Enough said. I said it all above and enough others have told you as well.

  6. Morris
    Babylon is Usa and I said this before. Jesus was living with us in sweden and now he is in the vatican. I didn’t said that mary is a muslim. I said that jesus mother in this life is a muslim.

  7. M
    God the father wants to destroy Jesus in this life. So sweden is perfect for sweden is the most sinfull country in the world. You can read about Jacobs sins in isaiah and jeremia. And Jesus/Jacobs 4 wifes needs to be born in hebrew blood and their is people who escaped from the nazis to sweden.

    • adam

      that is crazy. Jesus is the son of God, and the Father will send him back to save the planet, and establish peace on earth. God does not want to destroy Jesus.

  8. Weeeeeeuuu, I guess James is not as far out there as I thought.

    • I think you’re right Leatherneck! I believe that Adam’s got him beat! Was it over when the German’s bombed Pearl Harbour?! Nothing’s over until we say it’s over! Food Fight!

    • Ouch! My ears are burning!
      Adam just proves one of my points – that you can make the bible say just about anything you want with clever interpretation.
      There are thousands of different stories out there and only one truth. Maybe no-one has the complete truth but one thing is sure, – most people will get it wrong and will follow the beast.
      So I’m glad I’m not going with the crowd.
      But you won’t catch me agreeing with Adam any time soon.🙂

      • Adam is not clever. He is just funny. enjoy the sense of humor.

        • I am not funny! Explain to me why the mother of the child can not go to the same place. She is the mother of the child?
          There is only one reason that is that the woman has another religion and she is not welcome to Gods throne!

          • adam

            I enjoy your comments. But nothing you say is in the bible. So what you say is very unusual.

            • Marianne
              You say nothing of what I say is in the Bibel.
              The Bibel tells us that a woman and her child will be separated. The most thing in the religion after loving God is the familly. God would never separate Jesus and his mother if their was not a special reason for that and the reason is that the woman has not the same religion as Jesus has so she is not welcome to Gods throne.

              • The most important

              • Where in the bible does it say that Jesus and his mother have different religions?

                give book, chapter and verse.

                • Book = Rev.
                  Chap = beginnning of 12

                  The child will rule the world with Iron hand = Jesus
                  The mother of the child escapes to the wilderness and doesn´t follow him to Gods throne = She is not welcome to Gods throne beacuse she has another religion.

                  Like I said before Jesus was living with us in sweden. Now he is in the Vatican. His parents are muslims and his mother is with Hebrew blood from Juda tribe.
                  Jesus is Ortodox Christian baptised with oil = Oil anoited = Masiah. in the Egyptian Coptic church.

                  • the woman is Israel. she cannot go to heaven until she goes through the tribulation. she is jewish. it has nothing to do with muslims

                  • ADAM, You are sincere in your understanding of the Woman. But YOU HAVE A WRONG UNDERSTAND. Truth of these scriptures are hidden and revealed only to those who heart their Truth in the heart from the Holy Spirit (Divine Revelator). Might I share them with you??

                    THIS SPEAKS TO THE VIRGIN MARY WHO BIRTHED CHRIST….OF HIS INCARNATION FROM HEAVEN TO EARTH. IT SPEAKS OF THE BRIDE..THE CHURCH. IT SPEAKS OF HER SUFFERING BEFORE AND OF HER DESIRE FOR DELIVERANCE VIA THE RETURN OF CHRIST HER BRIDEGROOM. IT’T MEANING IS PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE: Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

                    THIS SPEAKS OF LUCIFER WHO WAS ONCE THE MOST BEAUTIFL ANGEL WITH GOD. IT SPEAKS OF HIS FALL. IT SPEAKS OF HIS CONTINUED RAGE AND DESTRUCTIVE HATRED OF ALL THINGS HOLY. IT SPEAKS OF HIS FINAL AND UNRESTRAINED RULE OVER MAN (BY GOD’S PERMISSION) VIA THE FINAL GOVERNMENT ON EARTH WHICH IS RULED BY THE INCARNATE SON OF SATAN, ANTICHRIST, WHO CLAIMS HE IS GOD OVER ALL.THESE VERSES, TOO, ARE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

                    AS CHRIST COULD HAVE CALLED LEGIONS OF ANGELS TO DELIVER HIM FROM DEATH AT THTE CROSS, THESE VERSES ARE SHOWING THE POWER ALLOTED TO SATAN BY GOD FOR A SHORT TIME BEFORE HE IS FOREVER BOUND TO ETERAL DEATHR. IT SHOWS HIM AS THE LION RUNNING TO AND FRO SEEKING WHOM HE MAY DEVOUR. AS HIS FOLLOWERS ON EARTH SOMETIMES LITERALLY EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR VICTIMS, HE WOULD HAVE LITERALLY HAVE DEVOURED CHRIST AFTER HE WAS BORN ON EARTH. BUT GOD DID NOT ALLOW HIM THAT POWER. THESE VERSES ALSO HAVE MEANINGS THAT ARE PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE. r e 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

                    THIS SPEAKS TO THE ULTIMATE INCARNATION OF CHRIST WHO WAS BORN OF THE VIRGIN MARY. IT SPEAKS TO HIS RIGHTEOUS RULE VIA TRUTH..THE WORD WHICH IS THE ROD OF IRON. AND THAT RULE IS PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE.
                    IT SPEAKS TO BOTH HIS RESURRECTION AND ASCENTION AFTER CRUCIFIXION AND IT SPEAKS TO HIS ULTIMATE RULE AND REIGN OVER ALL THINGS AFTER TIME ON EARTH HAS CEASED. IT REMINDS THAT AT THIS VERY MOMENT IS IS AT THE THRONE OF GOD.

                    Re 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

                    THIS DISCUSSES THE WOMAN, BRIDE, MOTHER OF CHRIST, CHURCH, ALL THE REDEEMED BOTH JEW AND GENTILE. IT SPEAKS TO HER WHOLE TIME OF PERSECUTION UPON THE EARTH….OF ALL HER MARTRYS.
                    SOME OF THE PERSECUTION IS SEEN IN HEBREWS THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER.
                    IT SPEAKS OF HER PROTECTION AND OF THE PROTECTION OF HER OFFSPRING DURING THE WHOLE PROCESS OF HIS CONCEPTION, BIRTH, ASCENTION, AND SECOND COMING. BUT MOSTLY IT SPEAKS OF THE FINAL 3 1/2 YEARS OF MAN ON THE EARTH UNDER THE RULE OF THE FULLNESS OF SATAN’S EVIL…OF HIS HATRED FOR HER AND OF HIS MADE FURY OF DESTRUCTION ON ALL MANKIND. IT IS THE TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE. IT IS THE TIME WHERE APART FROM THE SECOND COMING OF CHRST…THERE WOULD BE NO FLESH SAVED.
                    Re 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that the
                    y should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

                    ADAM, one cannot know the meaning of these verses apart from reading the whole Bible and asking God for understanding. The Bible is not just a book. It is literally t
                    he supernatural Word of the one and only God. those who read it apart from receiving meaning from Him, will not understand. It will be a mystery to them. Best wishes to you. May you find right understanding open to all who seek.

        • It is so funny🙂

  9. Jesus started to make trouble with his father that Jesus is the father so thats the reason why God wants to destroy his son in this life. And Jesus will fire up the most part of the world and then we will have peace. First war then peace!

  10. Ln
    No! He is Ortodox Christian and he will fire up the whole islamic part of the world. Muslims stole the 12th from us. Jesus is the first and last. 1-12 th. St malachy predicted 111pipes from his time. JESUS is the 112 th (1+12). Jesus is also born on 5 jan which is the 12 day from then light feast day. Their is 12 planets in our galax. Jesus has 12 sons and 12 desciples. 12 is a holy number in the bible.

  11. M
    Ha ha. No I don’t!

  12. M
    When Jesus ascended to heaven his family moved to turkey. Virgin Mary is burried in efesos in turkey.

  13. I would prefer Sweden to the desert wilderness of the Middle-East. So, I’ll be asking the Lord fervently – please send me to Sweden with the nice hot tubs, sea and mountains, and great food!

    Okay – now back to the post.

    I am expecting Father God to provide for “believers” during the 3.5 years of Great Tribulation – where ever they may be. That time of provision begins really soon.

  14. DJ
    I think of the song last night a dj saved my life when I see your nickname.
    Sweden was a dessert year 80-90 when Rev. Was written. Now it is beatiful and the people are kindly but they are ateists so they are Gods enemies and lives in sin.

  15. Forgot to check the notifications box.

  16. Interesting to me that your post on the wilderness arrived in my email inbox at 1:40. 40 years in the wilderness/trials and tests.

    I can’t help it..God keeps showing me signs through numbers. I didn’t go looking for signs but they keep showing up.

  17. The son that Satan wants to kill and will rule the world with Iron hand is Jesus and Jesus would take care of his mother but the reason why the woman can´t follow Jesus to the same place is that the Woman is muslim. Muslims are not welcome to the Vatican.

    • Adam I must be missing something here. Yes Satan wants to rule the world and is doing his best to destroy it.But how can he kill Jesus? Jesus is the Son of G-d, He died on the cross, was buried, reurected himself, ascended to heaven and now sits on the right hand of G-D, here he is getting ready to cleanse the earth of the wicked and set up a period of a 1000 years of peace etc.
      His, Jesus’s mother Mary died under the Apostles care, probably about AD 10 to 20. Mohamad came on the historical scene about AD 650, where are you getting this woman is a Muslim, As for baptism with oil, Jesus was baptised in the River Jordan(water) by his cousin John the Baptist.
      Are you being honest ? or are you just stirring. Either be rational or be ignored.

  18. I never cared about school and english was my weakest subject. I cut class more than I was there. Maybe thats why you don’t understand me. But I try to explain that Jesus is living on earth now and the book rev. Chap 12 describes what is happening now. I even write from my mobile phone so my spelling is not good either.

  19. Adam, your spelling and writing is good and there is really nothing wrong with it. Many people correct any lack of such things over the years they use their phones and internet. You have no real problem in that area. It is the content of what you are saying about scripture, things not not written in scripture and is purely fabrication, men’s ideas alone that have altered facts and reality. The scripture in fact says that many would say the Christ is in the desert or at different places and He said do not believe them. So of course we are warned of where He will be and how He will come. Your statements are false. You have come in speaking these very things and we know they are not true because of Jesus words to His disciples. Read Mathew 24:

    4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

    11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

    26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

  20. Marie jean
    The flash that will be seen from east to west is when the planet Nibiru will be visible for us. According to old cultures it is between 21-23 dec this year. This is Jesus return and this the time when the Vatican will reveal that Jesus is here.

  21. The scripture does not say that there will be lightening Adam. Take care when you read, because, the text is only comparing the return of the Lord to being instantaneous and as quick as lightning. Nothing more; it is important that we do not add anything to the scripture when reading it.

  22. Marie jean

    Your right! We shall not add anything. Let’s see what happens between 21-23dec.

  23. Adam The scripture of Mathew 24 is really only speaking of preparedness of the People of the Lord. We must keep our hearts in waiting for His return and only look to the way He said He would return because it will be at a time we all least expect and quite often the way we least expect.

  24. No one is preparing and waiting for Jesus return now so It is time for Jesus return now.

    • Hi Adam, Marie Jean and all,

      Adam, all true Christians are always prepared and waiting for the Lord’s return. He told us to be like the good man of the house who is always watching so that the thief can’t break in unexpectedly. The way in which we are prepared is by going from faith to faith, loving one another and anticipating his return as he promised. We should be especially ready in these last days being that we can see the signs of his return by events and the state of the world.

  25. I think I agree with you dmcal… people we talk to, different ministry groups we work with, all talk the same way. They know the times are short and there is no time to pretend everything is normal even though we must work each day, the sense is that the Lords’ children, and I mean the Jewish family as well, knows these are the last days. There is a sense almost of urgency or something else.

  26. Hi Marianne and all participants,
    So far, I have found very little comment on addressing the theme on this article. …WHERE is this Wilderness?
    As a child, I was taught that the WILDERNESS was a DESERT! …like what Israel experienced before arriving in Palestine under JOSHUA.
    Could it be, that the word WILDERNESS refers to a place similar to what was made for Adam and Eve?
    Genesis 2:15. And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
    I have lived through the 60’s counter-culture revolution, and often heard the word “Wilderness” linked to a tropical JUNGLE. I would say that EDEN was something like that, as it would be hard for Adam and Eve to “Dress it and KEEP it” if it had only sand and pebbles!
    Revelation 12:14. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
    Another thing mentioned here, is the fact that this WILDERNESS was away …”FROM THE FACE of the SERPENT.”
    Has anyone even thought of the verse PRECEDING this prediction, that mentions the FACT that the SERPENT/Satan … was EVICTED out of heaven?
    Revelation 12:7. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
    8. And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
    9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Thus we have TWO things :- 1) Satan is denied access to Heaven.
    … 2) Woman taken to a place where the Devil/Satan … is NOT.

    … into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, FROM the face of the serpent.

    I tend to agree with the fact that the “Man-Child” taken to heaven could refer to the Elect/144,000/Virgins/Sealed from Israel, as I originally thought it was referring to the past where Yeshua went to heaven, and would return to …” Rev.12:5. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.”

    The fact that the RULER (Beast) of the New World order would BLASPHEME and Curse those who left and now DWELL IN HEAVEN!

    Revelation 13:6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

    So far, I have NEVER heard ANYONE curse the ANGELS! …Who are these who DWELL in HEAVEN? … The REDEEMED fro Earth?

    Rev. 14:3. And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
    The following Verse (Hint 1-4-4) Rev. 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    Another HINT of 1-4-4 … John 14:4. And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

    AND another … 12×12=? Daniel 12:12. Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

    The 144,000 are the Expecting (Pregnant) BRIDE, Expecting the appearance of Yeshua to take them to the PROMISED Land.

    The 3years and 6 Months of Yeshua’s ministry was a foretaste of the last 3years and 6 months. There was a SMALL gathering at a Wedding feast where He performed His FIRST Miracle – Water to Wine.
    At the END of His Ministry, he had a Multitude crowning him on a DONKEY, a Mock Coronation as “King of the Jews”

    This SAME event will take place about the time of the Resurrection, which is prophesied … Rev.7:9. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    These PALM waving Multitude (Like Palm Sunday) will miss out on the WEDDING of the BRIDE in heaven, but attend the CORONATION of the KING of kings, and as they have gone THROUGH the Tribulation, will have MOSES and Elijah as their MENTOR/2-Witnesses, to teach them an OLD SONG!
    Rev.15:2 … them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, [and] over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
    3. And they sing the SONG OF MOSES the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous [are] thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true [are] thy ways, thou King of saints.

    (as opposed to those previously REDEEMED 144,000 with NEW SONG)
    Rev. 14:3. And they sung as it were a NEW SONG before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and …. NO MAN could learn that song …. but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    • hello Olaf

      I guess one interpretation of wilderness could be heaven.

      But I see the woman at least partly as unsaved Israel, who needs to hide for 42 months.

      If she went to heaven to escape, she would be in heaven without being saved first, so I am trying to imagine how to justify that concept.

    • Olaf, July 6, 2012, I cannot understand how anyone could possibly be looking for a wilderness after reading this history of the Jews arrival and filling up of the American wilderness where they have been nurtured for hundreds of years until this…no real Christian should miss reading this and then can tell me that this was not the wilderness they were nurtured in until:

      http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Ha-La/Jewish-Americans.html

      For centuries Jews have sustained a commitment to establishing a homeland for Jews at some point. The longing to return to Zion, the hill on which Jerusalem was built, remained a vague dream until 1896, when Theodor Herzl wrote The Jewish State, which called for modern Palestine to be the home for Hebrew culture. The following year the first Zionist Congress convened in Basle, which along with Herzl’s book marked the beginning of Zionism as an official movement. By 1914, some 12,000 American Jews had become Zionists. The movement was bolstered by the 1934 publication of Conservative Mordecai M. Kaplan’s influential Judaism as a Civilization, which argued that Judaism as a religion reflected the totality of the Jewish people’s consciousness. As such, Kaplan asserted that Jewish culture deserved its own central location, Palestine. After World War II, the effort to establish a Jewish state was helped considerably when the British gave the United Nations control of Palestine. In November of 1947 the United Nations approved a resolution to partition Palestine into Arab and Jewish regions. When Israel declared itself a nation on May 14, 1948, President Harry Truman decided to officially recognize Israel, despite a longstanding warning from the U.S. State Department that such recognition could anger oil-producing Arab countries.

      Read more: Jewish Americans – History, European life, Immigration waves, Settlement patterns, Acculturation and Assimilation http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Ha-La/Jewish-Americans.html#ixzz205zYRAHP

      http://www.everyculture.com/multi/Ha-La/Jewish-Americans.html

      This history should be a must read for all Bible believing gentiles who keep insisting futurist theology is the hearthstone of their beliefs. It is not because most, prophecy is at the edge of His return for Jews and gentile believers.

      • America, once a wilderness and land of the First Nations of this North American continent became a nurturing wilderness for the persecutions from Europe and the rest of the world and as they slowly drifted in we find an amazing story of the nurturing and preparation of a people that satan and the world of gentiles and gentile Christians that hated and helped slaughter many now traveled to over hundreds of years to this wilderness that nurtured them until the Zionist movement would send from this once American wilderness a nation building people ready to retake their stolen homeland. America has played no small role in this mighty prophecy of their regathering and re-establishment of their own restored homeland. This prophecy is fullfilled in our days Olaf.

  27. Hi Richard,

    Well I see that Don has already replied to you above, (good) I’ll just add the following to it all for you here as well.

    If you don’t believe that there will be a “gathering” before any of the seals will be opened by Yeshua, then that makes this premise difficult to understand.

    If those that fall under the category of the Church of Philadelphia are taken first, (Revelation 3:7-13., particularly that of verses 7 & 10), and are “caught up” in Rev. 4:1. That would then explain as to why the church, or Ekklēsia is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:16.

    This would also explain that those that were foolish, are now referred to as “saints”.

    Revelation 3:14-19, (the epistle to the Laodiceans), refers again to the “foolish” that will be spit out, (or expelled), for being indifferent to their salvation, and the age of Grace that they were in. Now as explained within verse 3:18., they must earn their “white raiment” to cover their shame and their nakedness, (having not committed themselves to relationship, when they had the opportunity to do so under Grace).

    Some will undoubtedly, and unfortunately, choose the “mark”, whereas others won’t, and will instead witness for the faith in Yeshua knowing what the eternal consequences are.
    This would just be one of the verses that refer to the later of the 2 choices;

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13. KJV.

    You have been absent from here for awhile. Did you ever read my study on the Ten Virgins?
    If not, and you would like to, let me know and I will post it here for you. But within that study a verse scripture reads as follows;

    “While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.” Matthew 25:5.

    The words “slumbered and slept” are derived from Greek “νυστάζω” transliterated as “nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “καθεύδω” transliterated as “katheudō, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”, which again would refer to the “foolish”, and who also when asking for the door to be opened for them, heard the Lord respond with, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not”. (Matthew 25:12.)

    Gotta head out again, but hope that this answered that question that you posed.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua.

    • Thanks Alienated and Don for your very detailed and informative responses and for taking the time to write them.

      However, again, I would be grateful if you could provide any number of verses to support your view that salvation is possible after Jesus has come with the voice of an archangel and the trump of God that will be heard throughout the entire inhabited earth, since it is the greatest day in the history of the world…the only day of salvation…to occur appropriately on the last day….the grand finale…. an event that every eye will witness, leading to imminent destruction.

      Thanks.

      • Hello again Richard and all,

        First of all, I would like to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that everyone in the entire inhabited earth will hear the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God when the event of the resurrection and catching away takes place? There is no Scriptural support that the rest of the unbelieving world will hear this call or even see the Lord and us for that matter, when we are caught up in the air to meet him. It may be that only the dead in Christ and those who belong to him and are still alive that hear his call.

        I would like to point out that there is an on-going error in that, those who study the Scriptures have taken the resurrection and catching away stated in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51 and have made it synonymous with Jesus’ physical, visual return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom. These are two separate events. At the resurrection and catching away, Jesus does not return to the earth, but meets us in the air and then takes us back to the Father’s house that where he is we may be also, which is in fulfillment of John 14:1-3. The fact is that, it is just not mentioned as to whether or not the rest of the world will see this event or if it will just be for those who are being resurrected and caught up.

        On the other hand, the end of the age is when Jesus returns physically and visibly to the earth bringing human goverment to its end (Dan.2:31-35), has the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:19-20), kills all those kings, generals, their armies and all those who will have been brought to the valley of Har-Megiddo and are slain by the double-edged sword that proceeds from the Lord’s mouth, which is symbolic for the word of God (Eph.6:17), and where he also has Satan thrown into and restricted to the Abyss for that thousand years. This event is in contrast to the first event, which states that “Every eye will see him, even those who pierced him and the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him.” This event is where the entire world will see him and we will be following behind him from heaven (Rev.17:14, 19:14)

        The resurrection and catching away is to remove us from the earth before God begins to pour out his wrath and the second event is to bring in the end of the age and set up his kingdom. You asked for us to provide you with verses that would show that salvation is possible after the church has been removed from the earth. Well, I will list a couple of the verses again just to refresh:

        “The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. ”

        The fact that this verse states that the rest of mankind that will not have been killed by the previous plagues would still not repent, infers that God is still looking for repentance and will honor it.

        “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

        Again, in the verses above, God in his grace, will send an angel to the earth, flying in mid-air to declare the etenal gospel to the inhabitants of the earth during his time of wrath in order to get them to repent and to glorify him. If they will do this and take their stand for Christ and the gospel, then God will receive them, that is, they will be saved. As a side note, this also shows that the church is not in view here and that because we have already repented and are watching and anticipating the Lord’s return. Why would you say, “Repent and glorify God” to those who have already done so? This shows that the announcement is being made to those who have not repented and have continued in the works of the flesh.

        The proof is not in any one verse per say, but can be deduced by looking at the whole picture. Paul, after outlining the resurrection, then follows by saying, “While people are saying, ‘peace and safety,’ destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers…
        I don’t even have to read past “But you brothers” to understand that it immediately infers the opposite of “Not escaping.” Ergo, they will not escape, but you brothers will. How? By the resurrection and catching away that he had just previously mentioned. Then Paul says, “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Here Paul gives us the chronology of events, first the resurrection and catching away, then the wrath which follows.

        Think of it this way, God has been building his church and people have been proclaiming the good news of salvation and eternal life to a world that continues to reject God’s Son and his promise of forgiveness. After he removes those who have been obedient to his Son, he will then, like a human Father, use other means to get peoples attention. If a Father warns his son to abstain from something that he is doing that is wrong and he doesn’t listen, but keeps on doing it, then his father will use sterner methods to get his attention. This is exactly what is doing. The world has been hearing the message of salvation through Christ, as well the consequences for rejecting him and once God has removed the obedieint from the earth, he is going to use harsher methods to get peoples attention and this via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

        By the way, the wrath of God is not only restricted to when he returns. As I stated previously, the seals, trumpets and bowls are all referred to as the wrath of God as can be seen by those verses that I provided previously.

        I hope that this sheds some more light on the subject.

        • Hi Don,

          Again, thanks for your lengthy response.

          While it is true that scripture does not say whether the trumpet of God will be audible to unbelievers, we cannot assume that is is not, so we may disregard that for now.

          Can we agree that the last day means exactly what it says, and if so
          agree that the righteous will be raised on that day.

          “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”…..John 6:40

          If the righteous are to be raised on the last day, and also (according your belief) at a “secret rapture” prior to the last day, then there are to be two resurrections of the righteous during the tribulation period? Is that correct?

          Thanks.

          • Hi Richard,

            Is it possible, that what is recorded within scripture as the “last day”many times in the Book of John, could also be referring to “the end of the age”?

            Within the King James, Matthew 28:20., is translated into English as:

            “Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.”

            However, the words that was translated into “of the world” there are derived from the Greek “αἰών”, transliterated as “aiōn”, (Strong’s 165). It is a masculine noun and is defined as, “1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity. 2) the worlds, universe. 3) period of time, age.”

            So that verse could have very easily, (and has in different Bible versions), been translated as, “unto the end of the age. Amen.”

            Could this possibly refer to the “last day” being “the end of the age of Grace” that we are currently in?

            Just something to consider.

            Be Blessed in Yeshua our Precious Savior.
            Amen.

          • Actually Richard, there are 4 resurrections mentioned. Jesus initiated the first resurrections, which is not just one resurrection, but is made up of multiple resurrections that come under the heading of first resurrection. Jesus is the first fruits, then the church at his appearing, then the two witnesses, then the male child who are caught up alive and the great tribulation saints at his coming as seen in Rev.20:4. Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection, on such the second death has no power. To paraphrase, blessed are those who take part in any of the resurrections (first resurrection) prior to the one that takes place at the end of the thousand years. You’re not going to tell me that the catching away of the male child and the resurrection of the two witnesses takes place at the same time as the resurrection that takes place in Rev.20:4 are you? So, here we already have two separate resurrections.

            The problem with identifying the resurrection and catching away of the church with the one that takes place in Rev.20:4 is that it takes the church through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are identified as the wrath of God. Yet, the word of God states that we are not appointed to suffer wrath. So, how do you justify putting the chuch through the wrath of God, when we have already repented and received Christ and can do nothing else to avoid his wrath? God is not going to punish the righteous with the wicked, which would be exactly what he would be doing by sending the church through the seals, trumpets and bowls. If there is any doubt that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are not the wrath of God, then I would remind you that it is Jesus, the Lamb who is opening the seals which leads into the trumpets and bowls and therefore, he is the responsible for the wrath being unleashed.

  28. Hi Richard,

    Well, again it depends upon whether you happen to believe that a “gathering or rapture” takes place prior to any of the seals being opened by Yeshua our worthy Lamb.

    If indeed a rapture takes place, (as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17., suggests and describes), verse 2:10. states, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

    The above verse would suggest to me, that those that “did receive, (or embrace, rather than being indifferent) the love of the truth”, (as described within verses 13-16), are therefore saved, from what is recorded within the previous verses, (4, 8 and 9), and will not see, “him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, be revealed.

    So, if that is the case, to answer your question, then those that are not “gathered” whether they believed in Yeshua or not, or if they come to the Faith during that time must be able to receive “salvation” by this belief during the Tribulation. So you are asking for scripture that could possibly verify that.

    Well, there was Revelation 14:13. that I provided above for one. This verse suggests to me that salvation is still available, yet now at a cost. Though God it appears, will still respond to repentance and honour it from other verses throughout the book.

    Then there is Revelation 18, that describes the end time destruction of the city where all of the prophets and saints had been slain, (just before the Lords second coming to establish His Millennial Kingdom),and the following verses which starts chapter 19 state;

    1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying , Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

    This again would suggest to me that salvation for some is still available.

    Don in his earlier response presented some others as well, in Revelation 7, where in referring to Rev. 7:9,10, and 11, (where Salvation is mentioned within verse 10, and this great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands), are clearly in heaven, are clarified in verse 14 as coming out of the great tribulation.

    There are more verses as well Richard, but I hope that this helps in providing to you what you asked for.
    (I am attempting to keep my posts shorter, can you tell? lol.)

    Praise Yeshua our Precious Savior, our Glorious KING of kings.
    Amen.

  29. Hi Alienated,
    You say that “If indeed a rapture takes place, (as 2 Thessalonians 2:1-17., suggests and describes)” indicates to me that you disbelieve in the removal of the Lord’s children in MORE than ONE occasion?
    Could you give your thoughts on : – (what does RETURN mean?)

    Luke 12:35. Let your loins be girded about, and [your] lights burning;
    36. And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
    37. Blessed [are] those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

    Does that not refer to the following?

    Matt.25:1. Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
    8. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
    10. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
    11. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
    12. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    • Hi Olaf,

      Yes, personally I do believe that there could be a connection between these particular verses.

      However, if you read Luke 12:35,36 and 37., the way that they are translated, you are left with only one logical conclusion.

      1) Yeshua tells those that were listening to Him, to wait for Him, (with their lamps shining) so that when He comes, they will be prepared to open the door when He knocks, AFTER the wedding. Verse 37 starts off with those that do so as being “Blessed”, or happy regarding the previous verse.

      I ask you would you be happy and over joyed to know that though you have made the Lord your first priority in life, and followed Him as best as you possibly could, be happy to have missed the wedding?

      Whereas the parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25 distinctly describes a selection process between those that did have enough oil in their lamps to keep them burning, and those that did not. Those that did have enough, the door was opened for them and they proceeded to the marriage ceremony. Those that did not have enough oil found the door shut.

      Now, is it possible then that the translators could have made a mistake within the King James? Certainly, for many errors have been discovered over the years.
      So, lets look at the original text.

      You ask me to consider the word “return” so lets look at that first. The English words, “he will return” are derived from the Greek “ἀναλύω”, transliterated as “analyō”, (Strong’s 360). It is a verb and is defined as the following, “1) to unloose, undo again. 2) to depart, break up, to depart from life, to return.”

      The word is only utilized twice within the whole New Testament, where in Philippians 1:23, (the only other time it is used) it is translated as “depart”.

      So the word in English would be more or less interchangeable and the difference subtle, though perhaps also significant.

      Now lets look at the following word in the verse. In English it is translated as “from” and is derived from the Greek “ἐκ”, transliterated as “ek”, (Strong’s 1537).
      It is a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; either literal or figurative.
      And though “ek” has never been translated into the English word “for”, (though 57 other Greek words have been), could it possibly have been in this instance?

      If so, verses Luke 12:36. could read as the following;

      “And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will “depart for” the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.”

      Now I am not saying that I am absolutely correct here. This is solely that of my own opinion. However wouldn’t that tie in better with Matthew 25, and all of the rest of scripture for that matter. Paul said to strive for this resurrection in Philippians. Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins describes a selection process.
      Yeshua say’s in Luke 21:36. to pray always that you may be accounted worthy for this resurrection. We are told numerous times to be overcomers of the world, etc., etc.

      Wouldn’t all of this suggest that we as followers are trying our best to enter through that door when it opens, rather than being happy because we have missed the wedding?

      For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2.

      Isn’t that the objective?
      I mean if you have missed the wedding, doesn’t that mean that you have also then heard the Lord say to you, “Verily I know you not”?

      Just my thoughts.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Precious Savior. Our Glorious KING of kings.
      Amen.

  30. Yes the wedding takes place on this side bro. Alienated. Your right absolutely. Just like all the gifts have already been paid for for the Bride. As in the Wedding ceremony of a Jewish Man taking a bride. He goes to the brides father and pays the price for her hand.
    Just like healing is for this side, wisdom is for this side, all 9 gifts are on this side. Jesus gave is ALL to us on this side – we not gonna need it on the other side.
    All the 9 Graces=fruits of the Spirit of God from the Husbands Character are given to us. Love, Joy, Peace, Faith, Goodness etc. etc. Gal. 5 –
    The Rest is on this side. The Comforter or Holy Spirit is the Sabbath rest the OT had in a shadow . But the NT fulfilled the Shadow and we have that Rest in us NOW- Christ IN US the mystery. What do we lack in Christ.
    A man or woman in the earth are walking in Death or Life. One or the other. Both have the attributes of what life they choose.
    The Experience you had dear Brother was an experience of what the Bible calls a REVELATON = Faith revealed to you brings Truth — The Spirit speaks to you. And yes it is so exciting you want everyone to know about what the Lord has done for you. But probably like you have already experienced many do not share that joy with you. Because they have Never had the VEIL pulled back from their eyes by their Husband Jesus Christ and become one with Him in the Secret Chambers in the Fathers house. This is the Jewish tradition and it is truth and solid.
    Im for you not against you dear brother. God bless you. Bro. York
    PS – Apostle Paul had to give up all his teachings to hear the Voice of God to him while in the Wilderness for 12 years or more. Paul said he got his Revelation from CHRIST HIMSELF. But please always remember Paul knew and was taught and brought up in the law and knew it very well. That is why Jesus called Him out to replace Judas. We have to learn and at least hear the Word and then let God show us by Revelation what is the Absolute truth. And its most always against your traditions. From Jesus Day to our day it takes a Revealing and the Veil pulled and Marriage to really know what your husband or wife is really really like.
    To not know yourself is to not be a Christian. Being a Christian is a REVEALING of Ones self.

  31. >>>>>>>>>’So to survive physically, but most of all spiritually, one needs to seek the Lord with all one’s heart, with all one’s mind, and with all one’s strength.’

    Good thoughts,Marianne. Biblically sound. I would only add that surviving physically is not historically an important aspect of Christians amidst spiritual persecution. Consider the apostles who (all but one I believe) died violent deaths for their witness. Consider the ‘cloud of witnesses’ in Hebrews: Heb 11:36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. ‘

    I believe ‘wilderness’ is where all the martyrs of all the ages were taken. I believe Steven saw it as he was being stoned while his heart and mind was experiencing Christ at the right hand of the Father. In this place one feels no pain. Steven, though being murdered, was in the presence of Life. That’s how the Christians smiled as they were placed amidst hungary Roman lions. That’s how Steven endured his execution with kindness and said, ‘Father forgive them. They know not what they do.’

    When the anti-christ is loosed it will only be because God removes the restraint from off him. Hitler wanted to be that man. And God allowed him to be to a point to show us the vile and evil hatred Satan has against God and against all people. Thus when the time comes the incarnate son of Satan, Antichrist, will seek to destroy all mankind….both those without the Mark and those with the Mark. He is the Destroyer beyond belief. He is Death. He craves and thrives on torture and death. And only the Second Coming of Christ will stop it. ‘Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.’

    From all biblical records of saints and martyrdom, Wilderness is a place of divine protection. It equates with true Sabbath. It is a place of rest near to the heart of God. It is not of this world. When we choose to abide in that place, physical death will be release….a very good thing. And certainly nothing to fear or dread. Remember Steven. He was in ‘wilderness’ as his physical body was being murdered with stones hurled by the hands of religious zealots. Remember that Steven’s spiritman was somewhere else and not feeling the stones. That ‘somewhere else’ is ‘wilderness’…a place of divine protection of the soul. Remember that the physical body is only a shell which houses the person..the spirit man. As we move from death to Life we are changed. We take on immortality…incorruption.

    The ‘woman’ is always in that place. The millions of Jews who died at he hand of Hitler were in that place. Only God knows the peace and strength of heart they had as they walked into the gas chambers. For the children of God physical death is nothing. It is release. It is blessing. It is ultimate victory.

    Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. ‘

    Satan desires we fear the great tribulation. But Satan knows the great tribulation is about his own end and eternal destruction. The Great Tribulation is his final run. And Satan more than any being, knows he cannot stop Life for the children of God. Like the cloud of witnesses in Hebrews who died physical deaths, their temporal bodies were in the physical world but their spirits were in Wilderness.

    Sorry to be lengthy. But life and death are not quickly discussed.

    Carolyn

    • elias

      so you are saying that the wilderness would be a place of persecution before death?

      that is possible, although I hate to think about it.

    • It is my understanding the millions of Jews who were murdered along with millions of others, were not in some mental wilderness, but screaming/crying as they realized the gas was coming into the cell. I watched the history channel, and listened to eye witness reports of the murder.

      I do not believe you are correct in your statement the wilderness is a spirital place that makes it where folks who worship G-d the Father in Christ’s name feel no pain as they are being murdered. G-d has put in all creatures the desire to live.

      You left out John the Babtist. Wasn’t he in the wilderness a lot eating locasts, and honey? Where did Christ go for 40 days?

      The wilderness is a tough place for most humans, and tougher on women, and children. Those without any support, like hammocks, fish hooks, a tent… will die. If G-d is going to protect Jews in the wilderness once the lawless one declares himself all things to all people in the rebuilt Temple, I suspect it will have cool nights, and fresh water. Perhaps, manna to be gathered in the morning.

      Anyone who believes in G-d the Father who sent the word made flesh into the world to die for human sin, better have a go bag ready. Things are heating up. With five aircraft carrier groups in the Persian gulf, something has to give. It takes to much money to keep them there long.

      • It would be amazing to see manna fall from heaven again!

      • Leatherneck said ‘You left out John the Babtist. ‘Wasn’t he in the wilderness a lot eating locasts, and honey? Where did Christ go for 40 days?’

        Spiritual Wilderness (Wilderness: God’s Unseen Place internetelias.wordpress.com) is a place of divine protection. God controls the entrance and exit..akin to Eden…in the world. John the Baptist was Elias the forerunner (thus my site..internetelias.wordpress.com) who prepared the way for Christ before he ‘decreased’ so Christ could ‘increase.’ Filled with the Power of God from conception, John was protected from wild bests and from anything that would harm. He was sent from God. Having his head severed was no biggie. He already possessed Life eternal. Being beheaded merely sent him back to the glorious domain with God. Life is the point. Not death.

        John could not have been killed in wilderness before the planned time. Same with Christ. Within God’s wilderness, Christ could not have been shot, stoned, and so forth, before the time God purposed. John didn’t scream or cry. He was empowered with a presence not of man. Christ ‘opened not his mouth’ until the Father withdrew His presence from Christ. It was then that He screamed “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.’ It was after God left Him that the pain of desolation, darkness, and evil of our sins was upon HIm…according to the purpose of God. Christ gave His innocent soul to the vileness of second and ultimate Death to redeem us.

        Wisdom and knowledge comes to each as God determines. I am sharing only what I know to be true as it relates to me…..only what God has revealed to me through divine revelation of the Word via the Holy Spirit. My experience from God is personal…to arm me with what is needed for my experience…for my
        martyrdom if needed. ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you.’
        I am only sharing those things and not trying to convince of those things.

        • You made statements about Jews not crying when murdered. Not all people smile when they are murdered. Even those who believe in G-d, and the word made flesh.

          Peace

  32. I would have to say that with duplicity and multiplicity of meaning within scripture, that both Carolyn and Leatherneck make valid points.

    Some may experience an ecstasy of the Spirit during death, where others may experience pain. I don’t necessarily believe it to be simply black and white.

    God is Sovereign, and He decides, though the destination may be the same for both.

    Just my 2.

    Love,
    a.

    Praise be to Yeshua the Worthy Lamb and our Holy Savior.

  33. The New Manna is falling and like Israel they got tired of it. God sent Israel out into the Wilderness for their testings and Proving them before they went into the Land that is filled with Milk and Honey – Just think what would have you thought when Moses told you that you going to a place of Milk and Honey. And all you could see was starvation, people hating you and wanting to kill you off. They did not know the way into the Promised land of Milk and Honey was so hard.
    It sure seemed to be different that what Moses said. The whole generation that Moses brought out did not make it into the age of experencing the Promised land of Milk and Honey. Why was that. They failed their sanctification, They failed in the Faith as Apostle Paul told us not to do. And said take Israel for an Example. They tempted God, they proved they were Idolators, and Worshipped the golden calfs of the pagans. They would not except the Message of Moses of that day. They had NO REVELATION and did not seek for one. They just wanted the MILK and HONEY. And their hearts were far away from God and they hated Moses the Prophet that God sent to them. And wanted to stone him.
    Does this sound like it could be a replay of today ?
    Jesus for 3 years Jesus taught His Apostle’s = deciples – ones that could be learned and be taught the ways of Holiness and Gods truths. Jesus Trained them in the Wilderness in the ways of disciplines and Love etc. etc.

    But it was on the day of Pentecost that they actually got into the land that Flowed with Milk and Honey. Just as Joshua = Means the same as Jesus name. We are living in the day when the enemy is coming to their end. And we have already crossed over into a NEW DISPENSATION – just like all the other 6 church ages spoke about in Rev. 2 and 3 – The Overcomers Overcome the evils of their day.
    They all had their Anti-christ teachings, and violence, and death, plalgues, vials, to be opened up in their age. They had to Overcome them all as we do – How do we know that. The Bible says so in each age they had to Overcome the their Enemies of death.
    Do we not understand that “A famine is in the land” the famine of God’s truth, Where is the Moses and Elijah prophets that are to come in Rev. 10 and 11. That is the Breach between the Chruch ages and the New Age of a brand new World order established by God. NO MORE CHURCH AGES LEFT – JUST LIKE O.T ran out of church ages when Jesus and John appeared on the scene in their day. How many could recieve them.
    The only difference between our age and any age in the bible – we like Noah’s age and John the Baptist age is going to dissolve and a Brand New Age start. That is Jesus Own words. There are 3 Major breaches in the bible. Where the Old age becomes FULLFILLED and a BRAND NEW AGE TAKES OVER> those 3 ages are the days of unleavened bread. This whole world as we know it now will be disssolved to make way for the Coming New Word where sin is no more. Back to Eden -literally and Spiritually – There will be no Tree of Death. Only the Tree of life – I am not talking about the Millennium here but a brand New World. Jesus is OUR MILLENNIUM here right NOW. He is my Rest, Peace, Joy, Fortress, Deliverer, Healer, etc.etc.
    The Great tribulations like never before – means – there is more greater people in the World with wisdom of the tree of death , We have weapons today of MASS destruction like never before. We have already got Anti-christ everywhere in this another dark ages. Drones flying over us everyday. My wife and I watch them come in to land and takeoff where we live. Who can make war with her.
    But it also says in every church age that we at the same time have GREAT LIGHT in this age. The Seals have been opened up to us by the Prophet of Revelation 10 which is the same prophet that is in Rev. 11. Its the Ministry of Christ on Earth again laying His foundation for the New Coming World. To help His people like in all other ages of the Bible. That is to the Believers – God’s promises are to believers NOT unbelievers. So believers look up for your redemption draweth nigh. Christ is already Here if you will but seek HIM.

  34. Internet Elias and all,

    Greetings! Whenever God uses symbolism, he will provide the meaning behind that symbolism elsewhere within his word. A good example of this is Rev.17 with the introduction of the dragon with seven heads and ten horns. Later in the chapter we are told that the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits and that the seven heads also represent seven kings. In this way, Scripture is interpreting Scripture. We must use the same process for all symbolism within the word of God. When people do not follow this method of allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, but define them by some other method, then this is where false or erroneous teachings come from.

    If you would like to know who the Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and is wearing a crown of twelve stars is, then use the interpretation that God has provided in Gen.37:9-10, as Genesis gives the answer to the meaning behind the sun, moon and stars. I can guarantee you that the woman is not representing Mary and neither is the male child representing Jesus.

    Yours in Christ

  35. It’s good to read your post – The Word explains the Word is also my way of doing things as well. I agree with you dmcal52 – – – the word holds all the mysteries inside it. The Seven Sealed mysteries of the Book of Redemption have been unfolded to us. From Genesis to Revelation you can find the answer sooner or later- God bless – bro. York

    • Hi Tom,

      I don’t think that we’ve spoken before, good to meet ya!
      Thank you for your response. Regarding this issue, in these last days, I believe the following Scripture is truly being fufilled which says:

      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

      I believe that this is being fulfilled via people placing their dependence upon other peoples writings, seminars, as well as visitng their websites and adopting others interpretations of God’s word. It is fine to read what others have written, as long as the word of God remains the measuring rod for the truth.

      Yours in Christ

  36. The Lord gave me a specific scripture today on the wilderness. Read Psalm 91. He is our eagles wings…

    • Deb. very good scriptures indeed – PSALM 91:4- He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
      PSALM 91:9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
      Refuge is “Trusting and having faith in God” – In God’s Habitation is where God wants us to be. Habitation is refuge and dwelling together IN GOD – In intimacy with His Spirit and nature- Amen
      Then we can mount up on the Wings of Eagles – God raptures and carries us UP on His Great wings. And hover’s over us while in the nest.

      Jesus Cried out in Matt. 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! = those wings carry Truth and Healing.

      Notice Jesus does not say – thou that killest the denomination’s or the great organizations of men — it says The Prophets – and stone them which are SENT to thee. We see all the denominations fruit – Where is all the True Prophets that God always reveals His mysteries to First.
      Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
      Yea “Thus saith the Lord” is a by-gone day in the denominations – hope you agree with that.
      Lord bless you Deb in Jesus name

  37. thank you Dmcal – good to hear from you. Im with you all the way on your post. Most myths and false doctrines came out of the Dark ages and are still with us today.
    Yea we must read the Word with an open mind and not our traditions that we were raised with. That is why it was so hard for the Pharisee and Jews to change. Jesus said by YOUR TRADITIONS you have made the Word of God of NONE EFFECT on the listeners. Moses Revelation of the Word turned into just Works without the Grace that man needed for his Salvation.
    Lord bless you brother and thanks again for the post

  38. Re. The part of the prophecy that says “And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth
    and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.”

    Here’s how it applies right now. Satan, called the serpent, or ‘the dragon’ uses deception as his main weapon. (See Rev 12:9 & Rev. 20:7-8)

    Satan spews out of his mouth a stream of water in an attempt to carry the woman (the church – God’s people) away to destruction. Now ask yourself – What could come out of his mouth in a stream that can harm God’s people?

    It is his deceptions as opposed to God’s truth which are running rampant throughout the earth at this time, and increasing.

    Many do not believe in the creator God, nor do they accept His word as a guide for life, preferring their own wisdom, or New Age deceptions. There are innumerable religions and sects that promote ideas in direct opposition to God’s ways and plenty of online material casting doubt upon the validity of the Scriptures and God’s supernatural powers/miracles.

    But the Earth opens her mouth and removes the satanic deceptions. What secrets does the Earth hold that can invalidate and DISPROVE many common deceptions embraced by this world?

    In the mid 1900’s, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in eleven caves in the Earth, and these validated the Scriptures historical authenticity. Then, in the later half of the 1900’s the remains of Noah’s ark were discovered on the mountains of Ararat in Turkey. The original Mount Sinai was found in Arabia as the Bible says (Gal. 4:25), with it’s top blackened by fire where God spoke the ten commandments to the children of Israel. In proximity to this the Red Sea crossing site was discovered with the pillars erected by Solomon to mark the spot. And the ashen remains of Sodom and Gomorrah were also located. Finally, in a cave under the earth in Jerusalem the Ark of the Covenant was found, and four men died trying to access it without God’s permission.

    Could this be how ‘the earth opened her mouth’ revealing her archaeological secrets?… To show the honest in heart that the Scriptures, and all of the miracles they proclaim, ARE TRUE!

    These discoveries PROVE that the Bible we have now is close to the original, and the miracles described in it are VERIFIABLY true.

    I have more on my website… nicetiming.com

    • hi robert

      interesting interpretation.

      i had always considered “the earth” to be “people on the earth” who rescued the woman.

      so that is a new view.

      thanks.

    • Hi Robert and all,

      As always, regarding interpreting the symbolism in God’s word, we must look to Scripture for their meanings, that is, we must interpret those symbolisms using other Scriptures. Therefore, regarding the flood that the dragon spews out of his mouth, please consider the following Scriptures:

      “Then the king of the North will invade the realm of the king of the South but will retreat to his own country. His sons will prepare for [war] and assemble a [great army], which will sweep on like an [irresistible flood] and carry the battle as far as his fortress. ” (Dan.11:9-10)

      “If the Lord had not been on our side—let Israel say— if the Lord had not been on our side when [men attacked us, when their anger flared against us], they would have swallowed us alive; [the flood] would have engulfed us, [the torrent] would have swept over us, [the raging waters] would have swept us away.” (Psalms 124)

      “This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza: This is what the Lord says: “See how [the waters] are rising in the north; they will become an [overflowing torrent]. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them. The people will cry out; all who dwell in the land will wail at the sound of the [hoofs of galloping steeds], at the noise of [enemy chariots] and the rumble of their wheels. Fathers will not turn to help their children; their hands will hang limp. (Jer.47:1-3)

      In the Scriptures above, I have put into brackets the symbolism and the literal meanings behind the symbolism. As can be seen from the examples above, a flood, torrent or raging waters are used figuratively to describe an invading army. In chapter twelve of the book of Revelation, we have seen from Gen.37:9-10 that the Sun, Moon and Stars represent Jacob, his Wive(s) and his sons, the twelve tribes of Israel respectively. Therefore, the woman represents the nation Israel. In the future, when that beast has been revealed, as a result of the abomination being set up spoken of by Daniel and Jesus, Israel will flee out iinto the desert to that place prepared for her by God. The dragon/Satan will [spew water like a river] out of his mouth to overtake Israel as she is fleeing, that is, Satan will send an [army] after her and God helps Israel by opening up the earth swallowing that flood/army. The ground opening up is reminiscent of when Korah, Dathan and Abiram who opposed Moses, where they, their families, their tents and all their possions were swallowed up when God caused the earth to open up beneath them. (Numbers 16:1-33)

      As was illustrated above, we must allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. I hope this sheds some light on the subject.

      Yours in Christ

      • I still believe that America was the one on the earth that opened her arms to welcome the Jews in where they built home and hearth as no other has allowed her before that and the next time it will be the free world whose heart has not left the Lord or Israel and these swords shall defend Israel as the Lord calls them in this last war when Islam and its cohorts attack Israel and will be destroyed. I don’t know who those will all be. Hmm I guess this election will decide much Don.

      • Hi Don,
        Allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture is a great idea …usually, but it’s not always the correct answer. In this case it may not be that simple.
        You say that a flood is always an invading army. You should not be so dogmatic.
        What about Isaiah 44:3? Isn’t this using a flood of water in a different way to illustrate a different subject? Check it out…
        This shows that when you base good reasoning on a faulty premise, you can get an incorrect answer!

        • Robert, Don and others concerning this topic and Don’s reply.

          My reading of Scriptures is a blend of physical and spiritual interpretations – considering how both the seen and unseen are active.

          So, this is how I read Rev 12:15-17:

          “…the serpent (Satan in the physical form as The Antichrist), spews water (demonic and physical forces) after the woman (Israel/Hebrews), causing her to be carries by the flood (AC’s abundant wicked, destructive physical/spiritual works). 

          But the earth (read 1 John 5:4-8), helped the woman…swallowing up the “demonic flood” that spewed out of The AC’s mouth (orders, direction, curses to crush Israel/Hebrews).

          Since the earth helped (3 things bear witness “on earth”: the Spirit, the water (Word) and the blood (new covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord and they agree as one); the dragon (world system set up by AC) made war (great strife upon the physical needs to kill/destroy and spiritual war Ephs 6), with the rest of her offspring (Believers), having the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:11).

          Israel will be protected in these last days, as God keeps His covenant. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – His people will not be destroyed or abandoned (Psalm 23). 

          This psalm is remembered every Passover, as the LORD crushed the army of Pharaoh in the sea. 

          God will not abandon His people now – they may even see the Arc of the Covenant in the coming months, which surly would bring a new faith to His people.  Hummm? 

          The new covenant (bearing witness on earth) with  heaven (The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit) and these three are one – overcomes the world (beast). 

          “And this is the victory that has overcome the world (beast) – our Faith” (1 John 5:4).

          Believers overcome “him” by our testimony (1 John 5:11-15) and the Blood of the Lamb, even unto death (Rev 12:11).

          Summary: the flood spewed by the serpent (he remembers The Flood and holds a grudge), are armies and everything he’s got to destroy God’s chosen people (the woman). Believers better be prepared when “he” turns his warfare towards us (Matthew 24:19). 

        • HI Robert,

          I beg to differ, Scripture interpreting Scripture is always the correct way, otherwise, anyone can apply whatever meaning they want to the symbolisms found in the word of God, which is the problem. Also, I do not believe that I said that a water, flood or torrent [always] represents an army, only in those places of Scripture where it uses a river, torrent or flood interchangeably with an army. In the case of Rev.12, I do not believe that Satan as the dragon is sending a literal flood of water after Israel and therefore, I believe that, as in the Scriptures previouslypresented, God is using a flood symbolically to represent an army to overtake the woman Israel.

          • You may be right Don,

            However an army is not specifically mentioned in Rev 12:15 so I still think a flood of WORDS and of DECEPTION may be what is being described here for the following reasons:

            Check Revelation 20:3 … Satan is here stopped from DECEIVING the nations any more, (because Satan is the father of LIES (John 8:44). Also please note: in Rev 12:15 the flood comes out of the serpent’s MOUTH. A flood of deception is more harmful spiritually than death… one is physical, one is eternal.

            Also, a flood can move people from one place to another, but Christian brethren are told NOT to be moved, but rather, to stand fast – see Phil 4:1 and 2 Thes 2:15.

            You may be 100% correct, but doesn’t this interpretation fit better?

            Rob

            • Hi Rob and all,

              Everyone is welcome to his or her interpretation, but I prefer to interpret this passage or any passage based on the use of previous Scripture. As stated, the use of a flood, torrent and raging water has been used over and over again in Scripture to figuratively represent an army and I believe that God put it there for that very reason, just as he used Gen.37:9-10 to show us who the woman of Revelation 12 is. We know this to be true because, in those other Scriptures, the flood, raging waters, torrent and army are used interchangeably right in the same body of Scripture. Furthermore, I have yet to see anywhere where floods, raging water and torrent are used figuratively to represent Satan or anyone else speaking lies. In the context we have the woman/Israel fleeing out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God and therefore, it makes more sence that Satan, through the beast, is trying to stop her by sending an flood/army to overtake her. Also, in answer to the following:

              “Check Revelation 20:3 … Satan is here stopped from DECEIVING the nations any more”

              At the middle of the ‘seven’, Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, (3rd woe) and that abomination is set up, which causes the desolation of Jerusalem, where Israel flees into the desert to that place prepared for her by God and where she remains for 1260 days or a time, times and a half a time, both equaling 3 1/2 years. It is not until the end of that 3 1/2 years, where God’s wrath has been completed and when the Lord returns to set up his millennial kingdom that Satan is thrown into the Abyss and kept there for that same thousand years and not before.

              When we move away from God’s provision for interpreting Scripture, then you will have a million different interpretations, as we have already seen in these postings. I believe the only correct interpretation is the one that God has already provided elsewhere in Scripture.

              Yours in Christ

              • maybe it is both…..

                a flood of words comes against israel, which results in a hateful response from the unbelievers, and an invasion of israel

    • Hey Don,
      Good to hear from a follower of Ron Wyatt. He found every place you just mentioned, single-handed. And I also believe that these discoveries were delayed by God for our times and may soon come into play. I also believe that Ron’s family will eventually unearth the ark of the covenant which they are still digging to after Ron first discovered it in the 1980’s. I think that will be used in the discovery of what the mark of the beast actually is.
      However, I don’t believe your earth swallowing an invading army in the future is correct, although you are on the right track.
      The truth is that this prophecy is already fulfilled. During the Holy Roman Empire the true church was persecuted by the Vatican, the little horn of Daniel, and were forced to flee into the mountains and to meet in caves to avoid detection. After the Holy Roman Empire (the first beast of Revelation) was broken up, the true church could come out of hiding after 1260 years (time, times and ½ time), safe from men but still hated by Satan.
      Also the bible indicates that a flood can represent a flood of words, and since the flood comes out of the mouth of Satan, this is probably the case here.
      Bless.

  39. Sorry Don, that comment was directed to Robert. (Obviously).

  40. Oh, I do expect the Ark to be brought out of hiding very soon. Ron Wyatt was not a “wacko”.

    The Ark now represents both OT and NT covenants (Hebrews 9-10), presenting the testimony of “the earth” (1st John 5:4-8),

    “If we accept [as we do] the testimony of men [if we are willing to take human authority], the testimony of God is greater (of stronger authority), for this is the testimony of God, even the witness which He has borne regarding His Son (1st John 5:9, AMP).

    The Ark, with it’s evidence/testimony (“water and blood” on the mercy seat), will be brought out soon – for His chosen people (Israel), Believers, and the world (beast) to see. Then, the AC will fulfill prophecy of Daniel and the words of Jesus (Matthew 24:15). All in His timing and by His plan.

    God Bless the work of Ron Wyatt.

  41. Marianne…didn’t Jesus also go into the “wilderness?” A friend of mine and I were discussing this point and when Jesus “…went away…” and was “tempted” by the Devil…my friend indicated that He (Jesus) was in the “other” parts of the world bring the “word” to all the “other” inhabitants of Earth! Like the American Indians, the Pacific Islanders, etc.

    What is your viewpoint on this issue?

    Just curious…again!!!

    Take Care and God Bless!

    • hi bobby

      I assumed Jesus went locally to the desert…as in one temptation by the devil he was led back to the corner of the temple…..which was nearby.

  42. I enjoyed the Psalm 91 message the best. Very calming, and a good word for the turbulent times ahead.

    The way I understand Revelation chapter 12:

    The woman is Israel. She bore the man child, the savior of the world, Jesus.
    Satan, the dragon, comes to kill the child,Jesus, but the child escaped and lived to fulfill his ministry of being the sacrifice for our sins, then He rose again from the dead to be with his father.

    The devil was angry and went after the woman, Israel, who fled into the wilderness (scattered throughout the world per Ezekiel 37) fleeing from the persecution of the dragon. But when the world helped the woman and stopped the torrent against the her (holocaust, means burnt offering) and helped give her back her land 1948, (largely Britain and the US) the dragon went after the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    This chapter has defined those who will refuse to take the mark of the beast. Instead the Jews will be regathered into their own land wit the help of Christians, and they will be there for ever according to Ezekiel 37:26.

    The next chapter, Revelation 13, defines the beast, the multitude who will take the mark of the beast and will give the dragon a voice, and who will also attempt to make it impossible to buy or sell, impossible to exist basically, and who’s god will claim to be god spreading his abominable doctrine of desolation from the holy place until the very end.

    BUT! Revelation 14 says the Lamb and those who follow Him, a number too large to count will prevail. This same message is repeated in Revelation 17:14:
    “These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.”

  43. Hello! This is not the article I had really intended on leaving my comment, but I am new to this site and haven’t found an email address or been able to navigate back to where I was, so please forgive me if my response seems inappropriate to the article. I wanted to comment on the Daniel’s timeline video. We are told to test every spirit so is leave you this. What is described as the 3.5 years of the tribulation is really the first half. The word must be interpreted literally and spiritually . I won’t lengthen my comment by quoting full scriptures those familiar with the word.

    Daniel speaks of 7 days and they are intact the 7 years of the tribulation. It will begin with the signing of the peace agreement from the war of Psalms 83 that is about to begin. There are 10 days of repentance between Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement (10days or 10 years) The Lord told us the days would be shortened lest no flesh survive . He shortened the time of Jacobs trouble to 7 years, the number of years he labored for Leah then Rachel, ( a picture of the first and second bride Israel, the spiritual church and the body of Christ, the bride of the lamb) G-d never passes judgement without warning and the signs were left to assure us that his judgement would come and yet we would be kept from the time of testing that would come upon the world. Many have confused the Great and terrible day of The Lord with the second coming.

    Paul tells us in thess we are not children of the night that this day ( the day of The Lord) would come upon us like a thief in the night , yet Jesus says no man knows the day or the hour of his return. G-ods word never contradicts itself, these are two separate events. The rapture occurs between the 5 th and 6 th seal being broken as the dead in Christ receive their robes and the beginning of the judgement of the lamb, the day of The Lord.

    The Apostles, the Prophets all spoke of the signs in the heavens ( blood red moon and solar eclipse as a marking point that the day of The Lord has come . Not the return but the snatching away of the saints and the beginning of judgement. Again he never passes judgement without warning. Jesus said that no man would no the day or the hour of his RETURN, as we read Rev 19 we see that there are no “warning” signs or markers revealing that day, it is a suddenly, the heavens simply open up and The Lord appears to all the earth and defeats the enemy with the sword of his word.

    Again there are no markers , sign post for his return. The 7 year tribulation ( shortened from 10) will begin at Rosh Hashanah, where it is written that all man enter the presence of G-d and his verdict for them is rendered, after a period of 10 days ( shortened to 7 ) all mankind comes again before G-d and the verdict is sealed, perhaps judgement withheld according to the level of repentance of each man according to his own heart.

    This is a picture of those who find salvation during the tribulation. When we consider the appearance of the tetrad of blood moons and their correlation with the wars in Israel, we must ask what is G-d saying. Blood moons always indicate judgement of Israel and solar eclipse judgement of the Nations. As Christians we all too often associate judgement in a negative connotation, when I fact each time judgement was found in Israel’s favor and they were granted victory over their enemy’s. so it is fair to say that the blood moons represented G-des hand of protection over his nation.

    During the first 3.5 of the tribulation , the Jews will be deceived by the anti Christ and it is not until mid trib when he sits in the temple and declares himself G-d that the scales are removed from their eyes. It is durning the first half of the trib that we see the blood moons, the sign of G-ds hand of protection over his nation. Immediately following , The remnant flees to the wilderness ( Petra) and are protected by Michael.

    The blood moons are removed because his recent is safe and judgement ( the greater tribulation) begins. The year of Jubilee also testifies to this, it is a marker of forgiveness of debt and a release of judgement, a time when all possessions revert back to the original owner. The blindness of the Jews (scales over their spiritual eyes) were a judgement for disobedience. The timing of this Jubilee confirms that as soon as the scales fall from their eyes they flee to Petra 3.5 years into the trib, that God has removed his judgement, forgiven their debt and that the Jews, his people have been returned to them, the rightful owner ( or Father) the timing of the solar eclipse during this time testifies to the judgement of the nations according to how they have treated israel and the ( greater tribulation begins, until G-des judgement is complete at the RETURN of Christ.

    It is appointed to every man to die once with the exception of the blessed generation that will be alive and caught up in the clouds to meet him. The beginning of the tribulation is also marked by the appearance of the two witnesses that will testify and preach the word of G-d for the first half of the trib. Enoch and Elijia. The word says they will be seen all over the world, then be killed in the streets for all to see and they will celebrate their deaths then they will be raised and accent to the heavens on the third day.

    We cannot pick and choose which events are literal and which are symbolic , they all are both. The mountains have not all been flattened and the islands disappeared. The kings of the earth and both free and bond are not hiding in the aves crying hide us.

    We will be here for the first four seals and I believe the horse and riders have already been released and are growing in strength and power as the time that their king, the antichrist is given reign of the earth grows closer. As the Lamb breaks the third seal, he gives instruction to the rider do not harm the oil and the wine. He is speaking of those with the oil of the Holy Spirit and the wine of our covenant with Christ.

    And yet just like when the children of Israel where delivered from Egypt, the last and final plague ( judgement from G-d) effected both the church and the world, only the blood of the lamb and the flesh of the lamb spared them. ( the first 9 plagues only effected the Egyptians) the last horseman will effect the world and the church, then in the fifth seal we see the dead in Christ ,raised first, receive their robes, the 6 th seal is broken , judgment is stopped while the 144 Jews are sealed and as John looks again, there we are the live in Christ that have met him in the clouds, waving our palm branches already having received our white robes when Johns attention was drawn to the events transporting on earth.

    I believe the moons in agreement with the rest of the signs being revealed in the Middle East and the world testify to the rapid approach of the Day of The Lord. Paul says when the last trump waxes long and loud we that are alive shall be caught up to meet him in the clouds. ( Rosh Hashanah is also known as the feast of trumpets when they blow the trumps 1000 times with the last waxing long and loud) this is the Jewish year 5773 and the gematria speaks that this is the year that testifies of G-d and it shall be witnessed to all of man.

    I believe the rapture will happen this year during time of the fall feast and the blood moons , a sign of the hand of protections over Israel and the Jews during the time of their deception will appear shortly after the abomination and they are placed under the protection of Michael at Petra until the return of Christ.

  44. Please forgive my auto correct, I am sure you can see the word intended by the context, I don’t write to impress man with my eloquence but to say from the rooftops what he whispers in my heart

  45. To the prophecy of looking up to the Brazen serpent in the wilderness is to the words of Jesus “Pick up your crosses & follow me daily” to the daily sacrifices , is but to equate with Him to his sacrifice in short “Crucify thy Flesh” to the worldly desires . The Brazen Serpent on the pole denoted ones Flesh. Israel even for a time worshiped the brazen serpent, which was but to worship their own flesh (flashes of the Golden calf) till came a wise king who destroyed it. Today America born of England & its Freemasonry represent the wilderness filled with the serpent’s desires, unto its core “Sodom”. Moreover do any preacher reveal this Prophecy, a most inconvenient truth but integral for the Salvation, other than earpleasing the “Itching ears”

  46. Who is the God of the Earth? Is he in the wilderness also with the Church?

    • wilbert

      His name is Yahovah God, creator and king of the Universe

      and yes, he is in all places at all times.even in the wilderness.

      the Lord said, “I will neither leave you nor forsake you.”

      • Then who is spoken of in the book of Daniel chapter 7 as the “Ancient of Days?” The person spoken of as the “God of the Earth appears to be different from the Ancient of Days”.

        • wilbert

          the Ancient of Days is the Father God Yahovah

          the Son of Man before him is the Messiah son, Jesus / Yeshua

          13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

          14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

          the Son of Man ( messiah) receives the kingdom from the Father, who in turn gives it to the saints, ( as Jesus did),

          18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom,….

          then the horn of the 4th beast wars with the saints ( that has been going on for 2000 years, and will climax in the tribulation)

          21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

          this is until God decides in favor of the saints

          22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

          this part many seem confusing, since it is the messiah who comes, or is sent back by the Father, but Messiah comes in the power of glory of the Father, so it is as the Father is coming. when all see him, …..all they can see is the presence and glory of the ancient of days ON him.

          we see this when Jesus talks to his disciples, and tells them when they see him, they see the father….and later after the resurrection, he comes in the glory of the Father ( ie he comes in divine glory, and the presence of the Father is all over him) that one apostle calls him my Lord and my God.

          the Father and Son are “one”… in spirit and power…..so the first coming of messiah was as a man, that he look like us, but the second coming will be as god, when he looks like the Father……the presence and power of the Father and son have “merged” in a sense in our view.

          the scripture speak a lot about the Lord returning to Zion…and splitting the mt of Olives…..This will be Messiah that we see, but the power of the FAther that does the splitting.

          I understand this, but not sure if I am explaining it well enough…I have separate posts on the merging of the presence and person of the son and father.

          • I found your post to be interesting. I wanted to see what you knew, and by far your knowledge in my view is much greater than anyone who I have encountered. Would you like to see my view? I study canonized and non-canonized scripture as well as the Ancient Hebrew/Greek. I have been studying them for many years. I have heard the term iron sharpens iron, but in the past when people understood how much I understand they disappear. I hope this does not happen this time. I can show you a bible code which tell you exactly where the place in the wilderness is, and more. You have not gotten where you are without a heart towards GOD. This study should not take place in an open forum, because of the sensitive nature of information we will cover. I think you understand that the time is very short. We have less than two years in my view, and I can show you the clock. No I am not saying I no the day or the hour, but the season is clear. The next step is up to you.

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