Once Saved, Always Saved ?

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Are we are automatically forgiven, and still saved, when we sin, and do not repent?   

Is grace that liberal?

Reference:

http://www.newswithviews.com/Paugh/butch103.htm

By Pastor Butch Paugh

June 19, 2011
NewsWithViews.com

Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

Reprobate-Strongs No. 96-Unapporoved, rejected, worthless, castaway, reprobate.

II Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrine of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

Seared- Strongs No. 2743-to brand, cauterize, render insensitive, sear with a hot iron

It is quite obvious from the above two scriptures that it is very possible for people who once knew the saving grace of Christ to turn their hearts and minds from Him and bring on themselves damnation.

It is also quite possible as the above two scriptures clearly explain for people who once knew the mercy and grace of God to sin beyond any hope of repentance and redemption! There are many more scriptures that declare the same facts.

Once of Satan’s most damaging and damning deceptions is the “once saved, always saved” doctrine.

The only way an individual can believe such a destructive lie is by hearing for years this false concept from teachers who are either deceived themselves, or are of the serpents (Satan’s) seed placed among them to deceive them.

Please review the following scriptures. Do not be afraid to confront the truth! It will make you free.

John 8:36, Heb. 5:12-14, 26-31, II Pet. 2:20-22, are but a few of the many scriptural references in both the Old and New Testaments that confirms the truth of the believers conditional security.

Any individual, saved or not, who sins with great pleasure in his unrighteousness, will sooner or later be given over to a reprobate mind! You had better believe this truth!

To know God and then turn away from Him is worse than to never have known Him! (II Pet. 2:21)

As Alexander Tyler wrote in his “A Bird’s Eye View of the Evolution of Nations,” these are the progressive steps in a nation:

1. from bondage to spiritual faith.

2. from spiritual faith to great courage.

3. from courage to liberty.

4. from liberty to abundance.

5. from abundance to selfishness.

6. from selfishness to complacency.

7. from complacency to apathy.

8. from apathy to dependency.

9. from dependency back to bondage.

Immorality always equals destruction!

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Marianne’s note

The bible predicts a great falling away.

Are you involved in it, and do not realize it?

Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians tells us some of the signs we are to look for, directly before Christ’s return to earth as conqueror and King.

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being assembled to meet him … Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [in the original Greek: apostasy – ‘great falling away’] comes first, and the lawless [one] is revealed, the son of perdition…"    2Thess 2:1,3

And also in his letter to Timothy –

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils…"   1Timothy 4:1

And the prophet Amos –

"Behold, the days come, says the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord…"   Amos 8:11

When it comes time for the tribulation and judgment of Christ, He is not going to listen to us blame pastors or teachers for our apostasy.

We all have access to the Word of God and His Presence.

It is our obligation to go to God, not man, for truth.

We will be responsible for our own actions and sins.

IT is time to examine our consciences and be sure we are not part of the great falling away.

If we are saved, we need to stay that way.!!!!

Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.


247 Responses to “Once Saved, Always Saved ?”

  1. Hi Marianne,

    This post could very well be the MOST IMPORTANT one of your entire website! Many Christians are deceived by the “one saved always saved” doctrine.

    Much blessings,
    Dorien

    • hi Dorien

      I agree.

      One thing that really burdens me is all the “Christians” who think they are saved, but are not. They have been deceived by teachers, or are self deceived.

      They will suffer for this, and will cause the righteous to suffer also, since the world will judge us, by how it sees them.

      • Please post a list of churches on this site that have divine angels watching over the church to help people discern Jezebel in the church. That actually move in the true prophetic spirit.

    • Theres an researcher on aliens/ufo deceptions by the name of Joe Jordon if anyone else knows of experts on this topic they should speak to the churches. Most don’t know how dangerous these beings are and their tactics.

  2. Marianne

    When we turn as Christians from God we leave the hope! When there is no hope what do we have, we wait on destruction? At this time many will not heed the word of God, many it says will be turned over to seducing spirits and doctrines which are not biblical.

    We must stand and stand and when we have done all we know to do we must continue to stand because now is a time that the wind is blowing and if it could blow the house down it would. But for now many children of God are uncomfortable but for a moment of tribulation and an eternity with the master.

    Hope in God, plead the blood and stand. Tomorrow we go home no more sorrow or sadness or pain.

    Those who grow cold and walk out on God need our prayers. Our nation needs our prayer. I pray that everyone who remembers will pray with other Christians on July 3rd. 2011 for our nation and all unsaved loved ones. If you read this and attend church ask your church to pray, if it is just you pray.

    Remember God taught us that our prayers are 1 praying puts 1000 to flight and 2 puts 10,000 to flight and the multiplier continues. Let us lift our voices that God may dispatch t he Angels to our nation to give it the help that it needs to heal us and the lands before his coming, In the name of Jesus Christ I ask.

  3. Matthew 24-11,12,13…Many false proph (Muslims) rise up and deceive many in the last hour of time… Those that remain standing and do not fall down to the Allah beast shall be saved…
    We are there now…
    The CHRISLAM churches that have invited Satan into God’s house to dine with them are the great falling away from Jesus..2 Thessalonians 2…….These are no longer standing up for Jesus but are falling down to the Allah beast..

    Anyone that thinks once saved always saved has never read or does not believe the Bible…

  4. Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

    • Please post a list of churches on this site that have divine angels watching over the church to help people discern Jezebel in the church. That actually move in the true prophetic spirit. The reason for this is so people don’t have to die needlessly in the spiritual & natural from church deception-false prophets. which the enemy says G-od can’t do anything about but the scripture says that nothing is too hard b/c he is!

      • Does anyone have the discernment in the spirit realm or in dimensions that only G-od allows too see. People with this gift in Tampa need to expose the where darkness dwells send them comfort and light.

      • My family has had enough of satans abuse Christ died 2,000 years ago this is unnecessary. Enough is Enough! All b/c deliverance is declared and decreed. and ungodly ties severed! Ms. Cindy said just keep declaring its done!

  5. If you read the entire first chapter of Romans, you will find that this verse is not talking about believers at all. I would run from a pastor who takes scripture completely out of context, and I believe it is pastors like this who will and are leading those who will “fall away”. When we repent and turn away from our sin and give our lives over to the Redeemer.

    Ephesians 1:13-14 tells us: “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation –having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”

    I take Scripture literally, I take God at His Word. Sealed is Sealed.

    The two scriptures that might be used to argue this point:

    Mark 13:21-22: “And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.”

    Matthew 24:24: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.”

    Notice the “IF POSSIBLE” in both of these passages. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE, Praise be to God and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior and Redeemer!!!

    • notice also…….

      Hbr 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

      Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

      Hbr 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

      This comment +

      Paul’s second letter to the Thessalonians tells us some of the signs we are to look for, directly before Christ’s return to earth as conqueror and King.

      “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being assembled to meet him … Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [in the original Greek: apostasy – ‘great falling away’] comes first, and the lawless [one] is revealed, the son of perdition…” 2Thess 2:1,3

      The falling away is already happening. People saved their entire lives, supposedly, turning away from God now.

      • Marianne, you are 100% correct.

        “to renew them *again* unto repentance” (Heb. 6:6)

        …as in they were once repentant.

        These are former believers who “[fell] away” (vs. 6).

        The writer of Hebrews could not have been more plain.

      • He knows about technology and won’t identify himself. Need someone with real/true spiritual authority in the gifts of the spirit of prophecy to help elderly Mr. Staley deal in Tampa w/this fallen in his midst. Petition Go-d that created these fallen to stop this has been a request for maybe 3 years for relief. The woman body he’s attacked is only 5 ft 3 enough! She hasn’t been judged yet. children might be involved. This should concern the churches.

  6. Yes, Marianne…the key word here being “supposedly”.

    • Dear Jan,

      It would appear to me that you are a proponent of the “Once Saved Always Saved” premise and have utilized some verses to substantiate your point of view, which could in fact be taken out of context.

      Perhaps you will find these as having less of an opportunity to be misconstrued? I have placed the relevant words in either brackets, or capitals for you.

      (1) “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

      (2) Every branch in Me that [does not bear fruit He takes away;] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

      (3) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

      (4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

      (5) I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

      (6) IF ANYONE DOES NOT ABIDE IN ME, HE IS CAST OUT AS A BRANCH AND IS WITHERED; AND THEY GATHER THEM AND THROW THEM INTO THE FIRE, AND THEY ARE BURNED.” John 15:1-6.

      …………………………………………..

      (19) Brethren, if anyone among you [wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back],

      (20) let him know that [he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save] A SOUL FROM DEATH and cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19,20.

      If I may, I would ask you to go to the “Rapture and Church of Philadelphia” post and scroll down to a study that I have done (though unfinished) regarding the parable of the Ten Virgins, posted on June 4th. 1:41 am.
      As well since you are there, please read another post which was posted on June 1st. at 7:27 pm. which addresses where many appear to have taken the word “elect” as being representative and to being referring to the Church. Where it is my opinion that it is instead only referring to that of Israel.

      Be Blessed

      • Oh and Jan,
        Regarding the claim that you make above where you say,” If you read the entire first chapter of Romans, you will find that this verse is not talking about believers at all.”

        I believe that this can be easily refuted with the following;

        “1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God

        2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,

        3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

        4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

        5 Through Him WE have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,

        6 among whom YOU ALSO are the CALLED of Jesus Christ;

        7 To ALL who are in Rome, BELOVED OF GOD, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to YOU and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

        8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for YOU ALL, that YOUR FAITH is spoken of throughout the whole world.

        9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of His Son, that without ceasing I make mention of YOU ALWAYS IN MY PRAYERS,

        10 making request if, by some means, now at last I may find a way in the will of God to come to you.

        11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established–

        12 that is, that I may be encouraged TOGETHER with you by the MUTUAL FAITH OF BOTH OF YOU AND ME.”
        Romans 1:1-12

        Be Blessed

  7. Marianne
    The key word in your response above is “supposedly”. What is being spoken of is the concept of the “wheat and tares”. Even now, most churches have these tares amongst them. I have known of Masons who are in the church, and the prescence of “jezebels” in the church are examples of this. In many churches, they are in positions of authority, and use their authority to suppress the truth, or to manipulate the followers in order to attain personal glory and gain.

    If one truly has experienced the grace and love of God, and truly have the HS in them, there is no turning away from it. But the fact that most churches now are merely “social networking sites”, with no depth of commitment, shows that they will be swayed, when that church is “tested” by God. When the “benefits” of being in a church run dry, how many will leave it? Or when the false prophet performs signs and wonders, how many will flee the churches to follow the masses that are swayed by those signs.

    The true church is not a building or a denomination, The true Church is where 2 or 3 are gathered in his Name. They have the assurance that comes from the HS that they are “children” of God, and no matter what is done to them to mislead them, they will always be Children of God. Just like you will always be your parents child, even though they may have left you to fend for yourself for a time, so that when you return to them, you will understand why they had to “let go”, so that your respect for them would mature. God does not leave his children, but sometimes he has to let them “go” and do their own thing so that they will mature. We must be careful in judging who is and who is not saved. In the end, we will find that some of the most noteworthy “leaders” in the church, were not even Christians, for they never had a “relationship” with him, they were never his children. And some who have been “living in the wilderness” are in fact the ones who have that relationship.

    I have generally found that this sort of condemnation of those who are Not doing everything that “looks” Christian, is used by the apostate leaders to place a burden of guilt and insecurity on the masses in the church. In other words it is a tool of “control” used by the false “prophets” among us to keep us dependent on the churches (buildings and denominations). Rather than letting us live in relationship with Christ, and experiencing the freedom and Joy that comes from knowing we are redeemed. It also keeps many Christians from the fullness of the knowledge and relationship with God, when we “turn back” to God, because we finally realize he is our father. It is only then that our relationship matures. Even the most “righteous” biblical characters “did their own thing” and made mistakes, but it was in their repentence, and turning back to God that their righteousness was exemplified. Think of Peter’s denial, or David’s sin with Bathsheba, Or Jacob wrestling with God, or Josiah’s turning from evil, etc. I can go on with that list.

    So, Once saved, always saved, I answer in the affirmative. In the time of testing, which we are entering, The tares will be separated out from amongst us, and they will probably be the one’s delivering us up for persecution (luke 21:16, Matt 24:9-12), But those who are Saved WILL endure to the end.

    • Hi Dru,

      If Once Saved Always Saved is indeed the case, how could this explain the need to be “Overcomers”?

      The need to “13 Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are [few who find it.]” (Matthew 7:13,14.) if Once Saved Always Saved is indeed true?

      And how would you address what is meant when Yeshua say’s the following when speaking to the Church of Sardis, if that premise is true?
      “4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who [overcomes shall be clothed in white garments], and I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE ; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.” Revelation 3:4,5.

      You have read my Ten Virgins parable, how would you explain the warning ” Do not quench the Spirit.” if it wasn’t possible to do so? (1 Thessalonians 5:19)

      Be Blessed

      • PS, I’ll address the Enoch post that you made, either later tonight, or tomorrow for you.

      • Amen, alienated. There are so many warnings to “continue” and “endure to the end” and so many “if”s and “then”s. They are all to be ignored? I don’t think so. I take every word of God seriously.

  8. Alienated
    I knew that would “irk” you. Are you familiar with the concept of “rumspringa” among the amish? Or when was the last time you read Ecclesiastes? I am NOT saying quench the spirit, I am saying that unless you have experienced your depravity, you cannot experience repentence! I am saying that every parent has to “let go” of the child, in the hope that they will “grow up” and return to the parent as did the prodigal son. The same can be said for the heavenly father when he decides to test you. How much do you yearn to be with him?

    I do not know your personal testimony, but I was brought up in the church. Christianity (religion) was shoved down my throat, and I was force fed all the do’s and dont’s. I was even teaching in sunday school, cause I was one of their “best” Pupils. It was, however, not until I was knocked off my pedestal, for questioning the dogma, and stopped using the church as my crutch that I came to understand the Gospel, and began to have a relationship with God not because I was told to, but because I wanted to.

    That church used this argument to keep you living in fear of wrath rather than living by the Spirit. You were obedient out of fear, rather than for Love. You never learn to trust in the redemptive work of the cross, and therefore you never “mature” in your faith. This is also a tactic in the worldly setting. Dictators want nothing more than the masses to be dependent on them. They want them smart enough to be “productive” yet dependent enough not to question authority. Well I did question the authority of the church, and found out that behind the facade there were people that did not Love as Christ commanded. I saw how “fake” the church was, and at the same time discovered how “real” God and his love were. So if this is “quenching” the spirit, then so be it, I am guilty as charged. I would not change my actions at that time if I had them to do over, as these actions on my part were led by the HS and were to my benefit as well as those around me.

    What I am saying is that for too long, the church has been about controlling the flock, and not tending the flock. Which I know you are in agreement with. But even an eaglet has to learn how to fly, and the Mother usually shoves them out of the nest. I believe that God left examples of this in nature for us to look to so that we in the church will not just keep the flock under its wings, but rather let them fly on their own. This too is why I do not agree with you on the ten virgins parable. Though I agree with you on the basic interpretation, I do not agree on who enters the narrow door. I am not a Christian for the purpose of escaping judgement, and God is not looking for “pawns” like this. But rather individuals who are assured of the sanctifying work of the HS by his grace in them, and who believe that the cross and Jesus blood is what has made them a new creation in Christ. Those that are willing to do his will, whatever it may be, not out of fear of judgement, but out of love for him and the desire to Love others as he loved us.

    I will close with this statement. when a child of God is “pushed out of the nest” “… the Lord shall renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings like eagles, they shall run and not be weary, and they shall walk and not faint.” (Is 40:31) The hard part is “letting go”. Yes it is true, when children are left to their ways, they will rebel, as did the prodigal son, but the father will rejoice when they return to him, and accept him as his son nonetheless.

    • Hi Dru,

      Well it didn’t “irk” me in the respect that you may think.
      (Sorry, though I wonder why that would want to be your motivation?)

      It did “irk” me though in the respect that those that believe that “Once Saved Always Saved” is true.

      Now you seem to correlate by what you say, that the “quenching of the Spirit” for you, was in questioning the practices of those in your Church? I am pretty sure that this is not what is meant by that particular terminology.

      To quench would be to “put out” or to disregard the promptings of change by the Spirit. To simply carry on with ones own life thinking that you have a “free ticket to Salvation”, and that there are no responsibilities at all whatsoever. Do not mistake responsibilities with works, for they are comprised of totally separate things.

      We are Justified only, and the rest is our desire to maintain a relationship of mutual participation. Which we having free will, can chose to do or not.
      It is a life long 3 part process and without Sanctification, there will be no “Glorification”.

      Be Blessed

  9. I used to believe that whenever you said that little prayer, asking Jesus into your heart,no matter what you do for the rest of your life,you will go to Heaven, but not anymore, we have to live it everyday, repent,when we do wrong,

  10. A centuries old poem is carved on a door of a towering, ornate cathedral in a small town in Germany.
    In a gothic, medieval alphabet, it reads as follows;

    You call Me eternal, then do not seek Me.
    You call Me fair, then do not love Me.
    You call Me gracious, then do not trust Me.
    You call Me just, then do not fear Me.
    You call Me life, then do not choose Me.
    You call Me light, then do not see Me.
    You call Me Lord, then do not respect Me.
    You call Me master, then do not obey Me.
    You call Me merciful, then do not thank Me.
    You call Me mighty, then do not honor Me.
    You call Me noble, then do not serve Me.
    You call Me rich, then do not ask Me.
    You call Me Savior, then do not praise Me.
    You call Me shepherd, then do not follow Me.
    You call Me Way, then do not walk with Me.
    You call Me wise, then do not heed Me.
    You call Me Son of God, then do not worship Me.
    When I sentence you, then do not blame Me.

    Be Blessed

    • Alienated,

      Yes, that is fitting, that it should be on a gothic cathedral, written by the hand of a man who had absolutely no concept of the amazing Love of His God and Father, for it certainly would never have been penned by my Lord and Savior. This is a condescending, condemning poem…it’s horrible, and leaves me feeling the same as when I read anything from the qu’ran…no doubt because they have the same “author” the devil himself.

      Everything I read in His word, inspired by His Holy Sprit, breathes LIFE into me, not death, as does this poem. The Word is inviting, encouraging, offering Love, Forgiveness, and blessed Hope for the true heart who would seek Him.

  11. How can G-d rescind his salvation because we fall sometimes? We are still human and we will sin every single day until the day we die. We don’t TRY to sin. It just happens because we still live in a fallen world. If one sins on purpose and does not repent, then I would think he/she was not saved in the first place. But if one is saved, then it’s a done deal. If we had to do “works” to keep our salvation, then it would be dependent upon man to keep him/herself saved. Salvation is a free gift of G-d.

    • hi JRA

      I do not think this is an issue of people, due to a temporary weakness, sinning about something they would regret later.

      This is more to do with people who start out “saved,” then either sin and do not repent, fall into deep sin and stay there, or reject god altogether, at a future point.

    • Hi JRA,

      Allow me to explain.
      We all sin.
      All of us everyday. Yeshua was the only one as man that lived, that didn’t. (Hence He made for the perfect unblemished lamb). 1 John 1:9 tells us to to confess these sins, which doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to try and remember and list each and every thing that we did wrong during the course of the day, (because we would inevitably forget some), it simply means that we ask for forgiveness. Then express thanks for being forgiven. Because in doing this He is faithful, will not forsake us, and we can be assured that we are forgiven.

      What this post is all about in my opinion, is that there are those that don’t realize that becoming “born again” is not just an act that allows us to become “Justified” before God, it is also an act where we accept a position to become one of His disciples.

      Lets look at an analogy here. War has been declared so a call for many goes out into the land.
      If one then joins the military for example, and doesn’t perform within their position, they remain unchanged, undisciplined, and break all the rules, how long do you think they will be allowed to stay without some sort of consequences?

      Within the same analogy God is the Head General, and Yeshua is His Vice General and there would be different degrees of subordinate Officers down to the level of Private. Then there would be those that had signed up for service, but didn’t make it through boot camp. So this post is about those that act like they have been released from the service, having not made it through boot camp, “but still expect to receive their pension”.

      God is the One that knows our hearts. He knows if we are truly trying our best in our faith. (That is also why we should never try to compare ourselves with another, because the relationship is not with them but with God.)
      He knows our personal level of commitment.

      Those that do whatever it is that is their best, (even though each and every one of us falls) will never be forsaken, and will never hear the words, “I do not know you.”
      In my opinion, it is all based upon our personal desire to maintain our relationship. To allow for the Spirit to change us more into a reflection of His Son. Those that truly try to be a disciple in their life.

      Be Blessed

  12. Alienared
    “irking” you has never been my motivation, Speaking the truth was.

    I asked you about rumspringa among the amish. you did not answer.

    I am in agreement with you about the “free ticket to salvation” and our responsibilities, as well as sanctification.

    What I am talking about is the concepts of “alienation” and “anomie”.
    I know that these are marxist concepts, and I am by no means a marxist. My arguement is that large portions of the church are living in this alienated (I thought you would like that) state, where they are “comfortable” in their norms. This is especially true of “western” Christendom. It is like they are content to “belong” to whatever institution from which they find meaning that they are blinded by the corruption and manipulation that takes place. Anomie is the “normlessness” we encounter when our beliefs and our place of “belonging” is taken away. My point is this, If we are saved, and God is with us, Anomie is not to be feared, in fact it will bring you closer to God. This is the concept of being a sojourner.

    2 Peter 2:9-11 Talks in detail about this. The key point being we are “sojourners and exiles” We are a “chosen race, A holy nation, a people for his (God’s) own possession”. We are not to belong to any institution but God. If you were chosen by God, “who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall TRIBULATION, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger or sword? …37.No in all these things we are MORE than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. FOR I AM SURE that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor THINGS TO COME, nor powers, 39. nor height nor depth, nor anything in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our LORD.” (romans 8:35,37-39)

    If that is not “proof” that once saved, we are always his possesion, I do not know what is. The church(institution) uses these arguments to prevent Christians from going on with their Sojourn. It prevents them from Living the life Christ called us to live, to step outside of our “Comfort Zone” and to “walk” with God. This is what I am trying to get you to understand when it comes to the ten virgins parable. The ones that had the extra oil were the one’s that were filled to overflowing with God’s love, which is the oil. The one’s who had been “walking” with God. And yes the one’s that were sanctified by the HS. Now your focus is on this one parable, but we must also look at the entirety of Jesus’ words, Especially his “new commandment” as I have quoted before, and put this parable in this context. Yes by God’s grace we have “earned” the reward (i put earned in quotes, because it has nothing to do with our works) of being raptured. It is yours for the taking. But will we be able to “love one another as Christ loved us”. Will we be able to “lay down our lives for one another”. Will the testimony which we make by doing so “prove” to all the world that we are Christians because we had “love for on another”. As the old Hymn states, “they will know we are Christians by our Love”.

    • Dru,

      I understand your position. I did not answer your question regarding “rumspringa” because I thought that it wasn’t necessary. The analogy was understood.

      You are not going to change my mind regarding this subject either, for I did a “stint” for a time within the “Grace movement” that is growing in prevalence today, and believe that God lead me away from it.

      Your understanding of the Ten Virgins study that I did, and mine are different. The aspects that are comprised within the definitions of the original Greek should not in my opinion, be underestimated.
      For example; “All had slumbered and slept.” “nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “katheudō”, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”.

      And though I had just posted that one parable to utilize for one example, where you say above,”Now your focus is on this one parable, but we must also look at the entirety of Jesus’ words”. Well I suggest that you and others do exactly that. Read all the other parables in Matthew that expound on this premise like 24:45-51., and 25:14-30. for just a few.

      Above you quoted, 2 Peter 2:9-11. Have you noticed that out of all of the things that Peter states that will not separate us from the love of Yeshua and of God, that there is one possible exception? That would be the individual him/herself. And though I see that you have capitalized Tribulation for some reason within that passage, I ask you this, if the individual themselves did not have a choice, then why would there be a warning for those that go through this time period to Not accept the mark of the beast in Revelation? Wouldn’t that be redundant if an individual had no choice whatsoever?

      in the verses you quoted above, Peter was speaking to the individuals who have received the “seed on good ground.” (Matthew 13:23) Not those that as individuals chose to not be good ground as in Matthew 13:19-22.

      We agree to disagree on this topic.

      Be Blessed

  13. Marianne,

    if person sells soul to the devil, is there any chance for repentance to such person?

    • Yes, as long as he can still breathe, and repent in his heart, he can be delivered.

      • According to what you said earlier, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. So once lost always lost, according to your interpretation.
        You can’t have it both ways.
        I believe the Hebrews verses are referring to those Jews who were claiming to be saved but living under the law. Hebrews was stating that they needed to decide what they wanted grace or the law, you can’t live with both views.

        • hi Mary Kay

          I think it would be more like:

          once lost, now saved.

          vs

          once saved, now lost.

          to me, we are under grace, but obey the law…out of love.

  14. Good Word, Marianne. The Holy Spirit has been teaching me for many months now about the frailty of so many of our church doctrines and traditions. I sincerely believe the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes continues today through the shallowness of the contemporary ‘Once saved always saved’ doctrine. It permits/condones continued sin and insists that Christ’s cloak of righteousness covers the sins of those who live carnally minded and serve mammon rather than God. ‘Once saved always saved’ wholly takes hold of His blood atonement but fully denies His resurrection power and its ability to restore, regenerate, and to practice righteous works as fruits of the indwelling Holy Spirit. I have Baptist background. All my family participates in the Baptist church. My dad was a Baptist evangelist. He fully believed in sanctification and right living empowered by the Holy Spirit….by way of fellowship with the same. He grieved over what he called the ‘shallow teaching’ of once saved always saved.

    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

  15. The great problem with this Reformed Vision is that, once a person believes in predestination and , that he is a chosen one or elected , he tends to arrogance . The Calvinist use to say that mankind is miserable etc, etc, and all justice act is sinful , and it seems very humble . But when we start to analyze the whole structure of Calvinism we see arrogance. Also they believe in the irresistible Grace , in which practically the Holly Spirit forces peoples to be dragged to God. This may end by thinking that an elected person does everything moved by God. Also if We see the history between Calvin and Michael Servetus , burned by him because he did not believe in trinity, we will see that Calvin do resisted to the Holly Spirit , The problem of those who believe in once saved saved forever , is that the believe that the contrary also happens : Once created to perdition , lost forever , with no choice to repentence .

  16. If you once became saved what were you saved from? Hell of course. If you accept the blood of the LORD Jesus, the free GIFT of God, IS eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. Then you HAVE eternal life. Eternal life is what you possess. Can you lose it? Impossible. Tell me how you loose it? By sins? Jesus paid in full for your sins. THEY ARE FORGIVEN. All sin for all time. Because He forgave us of all sin when He paid the price for all sin. The issue is no longer sin. Sin has already been paid in full. By you? No, by His salvation. It was His plan and His sacrifice. Salvation was His doing and not of ourselves. It is the gift of God and not of works least any man should boast.
    Those who believe that His work at Calvary can somehow be undone doesn’t understand salvation. Salvation has already occurred! You choose to accept or reject Christ and that is all.
    Nothing can separate us from the love of God. NOTHING, not even yourself. “And no one can take you out of My hand. That means no one, not even yourself, no one.
    You struck the deal, His blood for all of your sins. He now owns them, all of them and He owns you. You have been bought with a price the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Those who continue to trust in their own good works, trying to maintain their salvation are lost people.
    All sins were paid for 2000 years ago, way before you were even born. Therefore, He knew every sin you were ever going to commit, and He died for ALL of them.
    Yes, we continue to sin, and yes, they are all under the blood of Jesus. Because only an eternal God, with perfect eternal blood can keep you saved eternally.
    Believe the good news, Christ died for sinners.

    • Dear Mary Kay,

      I have no problem with the fact that Yeshua died for all of our sins, past, present and future.
      However does that fact negate our responsibilities? And if it does, why would Peter bother to say things like below?

      “14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be DILIGENT to be found by Him in peace, without SPOT and BLAMLESS; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest YOU ALSO FALL from your own steadfastness, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

      What would be the point to say something like this?
      Salvation has nothing to do with our works. (a point that you brought up)
      However, it may have to do with as to whether we choose to maintain relationship or not?

      Why else would Yeshua say either, “I never knew you, or I do not know you?”

      Just one of many passages to ponder over.

      Be Blessed

    • hi Mary Kay

      SUppose a born again person committed a robbery, or slandered someone, and did not repent. Do they still go to heaven?

      • Dear Marianne,
        You said,”SUppose a born again person committed a robbery, or slandered someone, and did not repent. Do they still go to heaven?”
        How about if someone takes an extra sweet n’ low at McDonald’s because they want some for tomorrow morning’s coffee? But they never have repented of it, are they doomed to hell? How about the person who overeats and is twenty pounds overweight, they certainly haven’t repented. Are all fat people destined for hell? How about those who refuse to honor God on the SEVENTH day and rest, that would be Friday evening at sunset through Saturday evening at sunset. Are they hellbound?
        And if you think repent means to NEVER do that sin again, good luck! I never met a perfect Christian who only sinned a sin once and then repented and now never has repeated those sins.
        Repentance in the Greek means to “change your mind.” This is the mindset of a heart prepared for salvation. It is a state of enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, understanding what evil is and choosing to turn from it. It’s a desire to do a 180, not out of fear or for salvation but from a desire to choose God’s ways based on evidence of spiritual knowledge of the existence of God’s truth of right and wrong. All those who choose Christ will have this understanding of repentance prior to salvation.
        BUT is REPENTANCE WHAT WASHES AWAY SIN? Never.
        Marianne why did Yeshua HAVE to die? Why was it necessary to shed His blood? The penalty of sin is DEATH. Eternal separation from God and all that is of God. The scriptures are clear, “Life is in the blood” Lev. 17:11, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls, for it is the BLOOD that makes atonement for the soul.” John said that he brought a gospel of repentance, a water baptism, which was a constant cycle of animal sacrifices for forgiveness, year after year, but that the Messiah would bring a baptism of the Holy Spirit for eternal salvation. Eph.1:13, “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, who is given as a PLEDGE of our INHERITANCE, with a view to the redemption of God’s own POSSESSION, to the praise of His glory.”
        What can you possibly do to make yourself saved? Galatians says “I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness came through the law, Christ died needlessly.” In other words if you could do something, anything, to save yourself, then Yeshua died for nothing!
        If He died to save you but you end up in hell because you didn’t pray some little one minute prayer of repentance His salvation was worthless to you! Is Yeshua a liar? He didn’t die for all men then if you can end up in hell after accepting Him as your Saviour. He lied about “eternal” life because it would only be temporary life.

        You need to humble yourself, YOU CAN’T SAVE YOURSELF. You’re not an acceptable savior, and Yeshua doesn’t need a co-savior. He gets all the glory you get all His salvation.
        The ONLY thing that takes away your just punishment, death, is the living eternal blood shed on your behalf by Yeshua. This is all about total forgiveness of sin for all of mankind.
        Trust in His finished work alone.

        • SO it is ok for me to slander or murder my neighbor, because Jesus died for me, and I am saved.

          sin is sin

          no repentance = no forgiveness

          god is not mocked.

          • Hey wait Marianne, please don’t put words in my mouth! I never said it was OK to sin, e.g., murder someone! Did I?

            Did Yeshua not die ALREADY for the exact purpose of forgiveness of the sins of mankind?? Are we not forgiven for all sin through Christ’s work on the cross? Am I missing something here? Are we now to help Him forgive us?

            At the last supper did He not say to His disciples that His body was to be given for the forgiveness of sin? Or did He say that your repentance was to be given for the forgiveness of sin?

            What did He die for if not forgiveness? Hebrews 9,”…..and without shedding of blood is no remission {of sins.}

            Lev. 17:11, “For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’
            Forgiveness comes from a blood atonement alone.

            Let me ask you this, have you ever committed the same sin twice as a believer?
            If you have then you did not truly repent the first time and that sin is not forgiven and you are destined for hell according to you. It is as you said, “impossible to renew you to repentance.”
            Have you gosipped more than once?
            Have you lied more than once? If so, you’re going to hell.
            Have you been a glutton more than once?
            As you said God is not mocked!

            Paul asks in Romans 6, ” What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? ”

            Why would Paul ask this? He says quite clearly here that when you go on sinning “that grace may increase.” So he asks, hey just because you can sin and you’re saved from hell, SHOULD you keep on sinning? He asks because obviously man can go on sinning and be saved. So Paul is asking since you have that freedom to sin, SHOULD YOU. Then he answers no, how can we live in it.
            It’s like saying you were dead before, would ya wanna go back to the coffin and be buried again. No way!

            Mary Kay

    • “*If we e n d u r e *,
      We shall also reign with Him.
      If we deny Him,
      *He also will deny us*.” – 2 Timothy 2:12

      Was it “works” when you chose to accept the free gift of salvation by turning from your sin? No. Is it “works” to continue in Him, turning from sin as He reveals it to you? No. It is imperative.

      Listen to this caution to Christians:

      “Beware, *brethren*, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in *departing* from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called ‘Today,’ lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ *if* we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast *to the end*, 15 while it is said:

      ‘Today, if you will hear His voice,
      Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion'” – Hebrews 3:12-15

      We will all fall short. What separates the wheat from the tares is the heart of repentance.

  17. Marianna,
    Just a little comment on this. I find what you say to be completely false. I have listened to Billy Graham a ton of times, my great grandfather was an avid listener and watched him everyday, even met the man and had many conversations with him. IF a person is TRULY saved he/she will have a sense of conviction when they do something that is against what God wants for us, a sin against our body, or against someone else. If they continue on with their life as nothing has happened they weren’t saved to begin with. Satan makes us believe that our salvation can be lost, it clearly states in the bible that NOTHING can seperate us from our Father. If you have no remorse for something you did you only were kidding yourself when you asked God into your heart, you weren’t being honest with yourself nor God. Everyone makes mistakes, but those who find nothing wrong with what they do were never saved. You are human so I understand you can get things wrong. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whosoever believeth in HIM shall not perish but have ever lasting life. It doesn’t say there is a condition that if you sin you WILL perish and are damned to hell. This would leave everyone who is on their death bed with questions and fear in their heart and mind. God is a loving, forgiving God, not an evil heartless being that would want us to constantly question ourselves, even if we fall away from Him, we are allowed to go back, it’s different if we continue on with our dumb actions. That’s showing unrepentance. Hopefully this makes sense.

    • makes sense to me🙂

      I was thinking the same thing.

      And what about the verse that says no one can snatch us out of our Father ‘s hand?

      John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

      John 10:27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

      And then what about the Holy Spirit who seals us until the day of redemption?

      Ephesians 4:30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom YOU WERE SEALED for the day of redemption.

      • sounds to me that those whom G-d has called are indeed not only marked, but SAVED, SEALED and soon to be DELIVERED🙂

      • John 10:27-28 is a bedrock verse to those who believe in OSAS. Verse 28 is indeed true but notice that it is contingent upon verse 27. Not being snatched out of the Father’s hand only applies to those who LISTEN and FOLLOW His voice! This promise does not apply to those “sheep” who do not listen and do not follow.

        • I think the scripture needs to be read in it’s entirety.
          Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

          Jhn 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

          Jhn 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

          Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

          Jhn 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

          Jhn 10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

          Jhn 10:7 ¶ Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

          Jhn 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

          Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

          Jhn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

          Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    • dholly84

      I think we agree but it does not look like it.

      If we are truly saved, we would NEVER turn our backs on God and his salvation.

      This is to question whether we were really saved to begin with.

      There are many false converts thinking they are going to heaven, when they have just a mental knowledge of god, and will be easily deceived by every sin and false doctrine that comes.

      I am trying to make people think.

      Are they truly saved? if so, any mistakes they make, they will surely be sorrowful for them, and the blood of Jesus covers this.

      But if not, they will go back to the world at some point, having rejected the blood of Jesus, and his salvation, and continue in sin.

  18. Repent has a lot to do with turning away from what we do and not doing it again.

  19. Mary Kay Mason couldn’t have said it better. Only Satan puts thoughts into the believers head that are untrue. Those people need to be prayed for.

    • Dholly84,Marykay, and Marcelo
      Amen, amen, and amen.
      Marianne, Even if a person has an Unrepentent sin at the time of their death, they will still have their salvation. Our sins are forgiven Past, present and FUTURE, because Jesus sacrifice on the cross was sufficient For ALL sin. This error is the same one the RC church makes when it says we must continue to partake in the eucharist in order for our sins to be forgiven. It cheapens Christ’s sacrifice.

      Internet Elias,
      I was brought up in the baptist church. It was not until I broke free from its grip that I began to “walk” with God and began my sanctification process. I am not saying all baptist churches are like this, for doctrinally they are largely sound. But the leadership has been lacking in understanding the complexities of having a relationship with God. Though they say they are not legalistic and believe in salvation by grace, Their self righteous lifestyle has crept in to their church. The bible says that the leaders of the church are to be the “shepherds” of the flock. Many, however, have exalted themselves to a “superior” position. Shepherding in biblical times was the “lowest” and “filthiest” of professions. Not some glorified position. The church as an institution is more concerned about “maintaining” its members, than sending them off to serve and sojourn with God. It does this by keeping the sheep penned and hand fed, instead of letting them graze in the countryside, where, yes there are dangers, but they also have the “good shepherd” taking care of them.

      God bless.

      • hi dru

        I would think there is a difference between

        (1) a sin one is not aware of and does not repent, or a sin that one would eventually repent of, because the holy spirit will be heeded at some point

        and

        (2) a sin that the person is not willing to repent of, and and does not care, and will never repent. Suppose I am born again, and then decide to convert to Islam, or become a serial killer.

        In situation (2), this person has turned away from God, and has rejected their salvation.

        • Yes marianne, I agree with the analogy of a Christian who converts to islam is committing the sin of idolotry. The following would pertain to this person:
          A. He/she never had a “relationship” with Christ, therefore was never justified. (speaking for myself, and I am sure for you as well, That thought will NEVER occur to anyone who has “walked” with the one true God.)
          B. they were a “Child” in the faith, and was not able to resist the deceptions, but are still saved. God usually deals with this situation in one of two ways.
          1. Idolotry is the sin that “leads to death” (physical death, not spiritual death). God will take what belongs to him out of his righteousness.
          2. God will use that person at a future time and bring him out of that situation and bring others with him/her. Some of the “strongest” and most “mature” Christians I know are those that were involved in a cult, despite being brought up christian, only to return to the “way”. They are the ones that won’t be swayed by false doctrine again.

          All I am saying is that there are tares among the wheat, and to change our doctrine of salvation by grace to accomodate the falling away of these tares from our number is akin to letting satan have the last laugh.

  20. Hi dholly84,

    These are not my thoughts regarding this subject, all I have been doing for the most part is quote Scripture.
    For your sake, I hope that your cocksure confidence is correct.

    Be Blessed

    • Alienated
      Psalm 146:3-9
      3.Put not your trust in princes,
      in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.
      4. When his breath departs, he returns to the earth;
      on that very day his plans perish.
      5. Blessed is he whose HELP is the God of Jacob,
      whose HOPE is in the LORD his God,
      6. Who made the heaven and the earth,
      the sea and all that is in them,
      WHO KEEPS FAITH FOREVER;
      7. who executes justice for the opressed
      who gives food to the hungry.
      THE LORD SETS THE PRISONER FREE;
      8.the lord opens the eyes of the blind.
      The Lord LIFTS UP those who are bowed down;

      The Lord LOVES THE RIGHTEOUS.
      9.The LORD WATCHES OVER THE SOJOURNERS;
      he upholds the widow and the fatherless,
      But the way of the wicked he brings to ruin.

      Matt25:32
      Then the master summoned him and said to him, You wicked servant! I forgave all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33.And should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?

      Matt20:16
      ” Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generousity? 16. So the last will be first, and the first last.”

      Matt 20:25-28
      “But Jesus called them to him and said; ‘You know that the RULERS of the gentiles lord it over them and their great ones excercise authority over them. 26. It shall NOT be so among you(disciples). But whoever would be great among you, must be your servant, 27.and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, 28. EVEN AS THE SON OF MAN CAME NOT TO BE SERVED BUT TO SERVE, and to GIVE HIS LIFE AS A RANSOM FOR MANY.'”

      Rev 3:20
      Behold, I stand at the door and Knock If any one hears my voice and OPENS the door I will come in to him and eat with him and he with me.”

      Your “theories” are not allowing people to “Open” the door, and Walk with Jesus and eat with him. In the parable of the talents, the key word is in verse 25 “so I was AFRAID And I went and hid your talents.” You are in fact encouraging people to hide their talents out of fear of losing them. Again, Matt 24:49 “[The wicked servant]…begins to beat his fellow servant…” He is lording over them. Your attitude in the above reply shows your exalted position.

  21. Can someone lose salvation? How can this be if we are saved, washed in the blood, and known of God? Simply put, a person can turn away from God in the same way they can turn to God. The turth is, many will turn away. The great falling away is for those who once were of the faith. To be apart of this group one must have been a Christian in order to fall from the faith, (having a knowledge of God). We can not say these are unsaved men and women because the ungodly are already lost.
    We need to only look at some men who’ve fallen away, and are now apart an the apostate church that uses the name Christian. Rick Warren is a good example of a man who started strong, but allowed the demonic doctrine of Chrislam to become his sounding board. Was he saved? Did he confess Jesus is Lord? Did he believe in his heart? Yes! Yet now his works are no longer built upon the soild foundation of Christ, but he has cracks in the structure that was laid down before hand, he turned from God to preach a demonically inspired doctrine that says Allah and Jesus are equals.
    Did God leave him, or did he leave God?

    Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. 1st Tim. 4:1.
    Notice in this verse how they departed the faith. They could not feel the absence of the Holy Spirit inwardly because their conscience was seared. They can not feel or tell they were off the righteous path.

    Secondly, seared with a hot iron. This was used in those days to kill nerve ending so one can not tell they were in pain. Even today doctors deaden nerves before surgery, and a patient feels nothing though they are awake.

    In a Christian the conscience is another area that is waken by the Holy Spirit, which bringings our feelings to life in Christ, and for the things of God.
    The truth is the Holy Spirit will never leave us. The Word of God make this clear. Ehpesians 1:13-14 believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who indwells us, guaranteeing our inheritance. Yet we can quench Him, and grieve Him.

    The sin of speaking evil of and rejecting the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin, because a person rejects the ability of God to touch and change the human heart. The Holy Ghost is seeking to deal with us about our faith, or lack of faith In God, and we reject and resist His guidance. When we, who were once filled with the glory of God, then reject Him, God gives that person over to a reprobate mind, Romans 1 shows the progression of a person who once believed, who then over time, were given over. Everyone may see this topic differently, however, one thing is for sure, we should all seek to be led by the Holy Spirit. Amen.

    • You said, “Simply put, a person can turn away from God in the same way they can turn to God.”
      Well, truly that was simply put, but was it true? Anyone can say anything that may make sense in the natural but is completely opposite in the spiritual.

      We turn to God through repentance. The state of believing unto salvation, results in thrn receiving the free gift of the atoning blood of Yeshua . This believing faith puts a contract into motion. You agreed to have your sins paid for by Yeshua so you gave Him the sins with their attached penalty, death. Now they’re His, He bought them with His blood. They are no longer yours. Now, you agree to go to heaven forever, to be His adopted child. And He seals you with the Holy Spirit who is given as a pledge with the view of the redemption as God’s own possession to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14
      Now, with earthly contracts you might be able to get out of it, if the co-signer agreed to allow you to back out. Not so with God. Why? Because He NEVER GOES BACK ON HIS WORD. HE CAN’T. He can’t because He’s perfect and to break a contract would be opposed to His perfect nature. Since He promised you eternal life, that is what you will have from the second the deal was made.
      “Though your sins be as crimson, I will make them white as snow. I will separate them as far as the east is from the west and I will remember them no more.
      He doesn’t even remember your sins. Why? Because of His joy that Yeshua paid the absolute price anyone can pay. This is what it means to be loved. Sin is forgiven. Be reconciled. Believe the good news.

      • Yes that is correct. I did say “Simply put, a person can turn away from God in the same way they can turn to God.”

        God has given us the ability to choose. We are creatures with free will. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God.
        Without freewill we fall back under the law, which cancels out our will for the letter of the law. The Bible tells us we can abandon Him, yet He does not abandon us. He says “I will never leave you or forsake you.” He did not say (you can never leave me or forsake me).

        If we had no freewill, it would be impossible for us to fall away because we would be under the law and stripped of choice.
        God giving us freewill allows us to love Him and worship him freely, like a son and daugthers.

        If we are saved in spite of ourselves, then there would be no freewill. Yes Jesus died for our sins and their must be a reaction to this, one of faith. And yet some making this chioce fell among thorns, some on rocky ground and did not take root, and some the cares of this world choked them out. Though they believed by faith, and received the good news, they were affected in different.

        I will say this then I leave it alone, God bless.

        Paul wrote concerning Demas, a faithful Christian. “For Demas has forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed into Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia” (2 Tim. 4:10).

        Paul mentions him two other times. In his letter to the Colossians, Paul lists a number of people who joined him in sending greetings to the Colossians. “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, salutes you, always laboring fervently for you in prayers, that you may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. For I bear him record, that he has a great zeal for you, and them that are in Laodicea, and them in Hierapolis. Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you” (Col. 4:12-14). Paul calls Mark, Aristarchus, Demas and Luke his “fellow-laborers” (Phile. 23-24).

        Demas had been a faithful servant of the Lord., yet he forsook Paul and the work that Paul was doing. Paul says Demas had forsaken him (having loved this present world).
        Does Paul mean Demas was engaging in immoral activities? There is no doubt that fornication, drunkenness, adultery and such behavior constitute worldliness. James asked his readers: “You adulterers and adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God” (Jas.4: 4).

        Demas, had betrayed and abandoned Paul because he no longer cared for the difficulties of being a Christian. He’d been with Paul during his imprisonment, standing faithfully at his side. But, for love of this world, for its luxuries, he allowed it to take root in his heart. Demas’ abandonment of Paul was the first step in his rejection of the Lord. In outcome of this was; according to Jewish tradition; he later became a priest in a pagan temple in Thessalonica. He became lost.

      • “How shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?” !…..http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/spoken-confirmed-witnessed-a-great-salvation………John 3 born of water and spirit…you can hardly argue that there wasn’t one apostle who was not radically changed for the cause of Christ but many Christians will even deny this bc they have no clue how the holy spirit changes a heart…regeneration is foreign and many I’ve met, Baptist mostly, sorry but this is a fact, who question anyone not beholding to this killer doctrine, bc they seem to want to justify their sin, especially the ones they love…how do i know bc first i use to be one who was herself self-deceived, second, i was with a professing Christian for over ten years who was solid and said angrily, don’t tell me I’m not a Christian but had no conscience sleeping with me outside of marriage…He truly believed this was approved and “all-right” with God having no conscience nor remorse…and I fear many Men are of this mindset…Also, I have a family full of self deceivers loving the world so much they have left their first love and is expressed in every area of their lives that they don’t see…but I do, because I’ve been there…on both sides of the fence…but now, I’m off the fence and a part of the pasture where the true sheep graze and where the Father of love and truth tends to his flock….be ye not deceived…

    • well said.

  22. Thank you Marianne for teaching the truth—something of a sparse commodity these days. The teachers and adherents of OSAS are repeating an ages-old lie involving the serpent who first spoke those words to Eve: “You shall not surely die.” Possessing saving faith involves more than cognitive assent for even the demons believe in one God; yet they remain disobedient (James 2:19-20). As you know we are not talking about perfection as everyone sins. However the Bible warns of stern consequences should we choose to engage in habitual and chronic sin which is the mark of someone who is disobedient and thus unrepentant. Paul warns the Galatian church that those who practice sin lose their inheritance (Gal 5:19-21). Some would argue that such verses do not apply to believers or that the person was never a true believer in the first place. These arguments have no weight and go against the plain teaching of Scripture such as 1 Tim 3:6: “He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.” This single verse explicitly shows that it is possible for a believer (convert) to end up in the Lake of Fire, thus incurring the same condemnation as the devil. Other verses such as Rev 3:5 specifically addressed to the church in Sardis, show that eternal life comes through perseverance and unless one does so, it is possible for a believer to have his or her name erased from the Book of Life.
    “He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”
    Eternal life involves the process of sanctification and is an abiding journey of a lifetime and not the instant ticket to heaven as many false teachers would have us believe.

    • You believe in good works for your salvation.
      Believing this you will die in your sins and be condemned to hell forever. Of this I am certain.
      You said, “Possessing saving faith involves more than cognitive assent for even the demons believe in one God; yet they remain disobedient (James 2:19-20).
      Wait, does salvation mean to believe in one God? Where does the Bible say that?

      You said, “As you know we are not talking about perfection as everyone sins.”
      Well then what are you talking about? Two sins, five, a hundred, a million. How many is enough to be able to slide into Heaven?
      You are wrong, we are talking about perfection! The only way you can get into Heeaven is by being perfect. No white clothing, no wedding, the door is closed.
      Our righteousness, our perfection, our holy and blameless, is by the PERFECT atoning blood of Yehsua. And not by works of righteousness which we have done, but by His grace has He saved us.
      I see where you qouted Galatians well I wish you had also quoted the 3 verses before that,:16 “This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, YOU ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW.
      Who is led by the Spirit except he who has the Spirit. How does one obtain the Spirit, read Ephesians 1:13-14, After believing and receiving Christ you are SEALED in the Holy Spirit who is given as your PROMISE of an inheritance in HEAVEN and a possession of God.
      Your interpretation of 1 Tim 3 is ridiculous!
      “Not a novice, lest he be lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”
      In other words if you’re a prideful, full of yourself, pompous jerk, you are going to get hit majorly with an attack of condemnation from Satan. What we call Satanic attack. The next verse says the same thing, “….lest he fall into reproach and the SNARE of the devil.”
      Do you really think God would send a pastor to hell for the sin of being conceited?
      Your belief is dangerous and your destiny flaming fire.
      I’m not being mean, I’m trying to save you from hell.
      Stop trying to be God’s co-pilot. To God be the glory, not to Stuart be the glory. “Not by works of righteousness which we have done but by His grace has He saved us.”

      • do you know anything about regeneration or sanctification or are you just a defender of sin?, so that you can feel pretty good about when your committing it? instead, why don’t you opt for discussing the transforming power of the holy spirit…do not be conformed, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind !

  23. Alienated,
    You said,”I have no problem with the fact that Yeshua died for all of our sins, past, present and future.
    However does that fact negate our responsibilities? And if it does, why would Peter bother to say things like below?

    And what exactly according to the holy scriptures are our responsibilities?
    Answer this first. Please quote only scriptures.

    Yu continue: “14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be DILIGENT to be found by Him in peace, without SPOT and BLAMLESS;
    15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation–as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest YOU ALSO FALL from your own steadfastness, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

    THIS IS NOT A SALVATION VERSE. It doesn’t as much as hint to being a salvation verse. The subject is the tribulation. It says be diligent to be found in peace, or to put it another way, have peace concerning these things which he writes about the trib.. “Without spot and blameless”

    Ephesians 1:4 states, “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”
    He has chosen to make us holy and blameless through His plan of salvation according to Ephesians.
    He is reminding us of what we already have. Or do you really tink he is saying here that you should be sinless?
    Do you think he is calling “untaught and unstable people” believers?
    He then warns them to not fall for their twisted lies and be led down a raod of error.
    Where do you see the salvation subject? It isn’t there.

    What would be the point to say something like this?

    Interesting that you quoted this verse and not include the verse before it.
    “Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons OUGHT you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, ACCORDING TO HIS PROMISE, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    Salvation has nothing to do with our works. (a point that you brought up)
    However, it may have to do with as to whether we choose to maintain relationship or not? Are you making a statement or throwing out a thought? If a statement, you’ll need to back it up with scriptures.

    Let me ask you something, how many people do you know who really truly were born again, walked with God, trusted Him as LORD AND Savior and then decided they no longer wanted to be saved and go to heaven with God but opted for hell?
    1 John 2:19, states, “They went out from us, but they were not OF us; for if they had been of us, they would have no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be manifest that THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US.”

    Mary Kay
    Mary Kay

  24. The premise that salvation has nothing to do at all with our works is false. James makes the point that faith without works is no faith at all and does not save (Jas 2.14-17). While it is true that works done in our flesh account for nothing, works done unto obedience to the leading of the Holy Spiriit is the real evidence of saving faith. “You see that a man is JUSTIFIED BY WORKS and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24).

    • “What doth it profit, my brethren, {speaking to believers} though a man {unsaved } SAY he hath faith, and have not works? can {merely saying he has } faith save him?

      Of course not. Any one can SAY THEY HAVE FAITH. The Muslims have say they have faith, Hindus say they have faith, Moonies say they have faith.
      But the fruit of salvation will be a changed life! You will produce fruit, some 100 fold, some 50 fold and some 30. It is a natural outpouring of Holy Spirit EVIDENCE.
      You can stand there and SAY oh, my church is this and that, oh I believe in Jesuuuus, I speak in tongues, yadda, yadda, yadda, these ae all merely worshipping Him with our lips BUT OUR HEART IS FAR FROM HIM.
      When you are truly saved, others will see your fruit, they will experience the Holy Spirit through you. A good tree can not bare bad fruit.
      You can’t make yourself good! It comes through receiving the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, God changes us! We can’t do the changing. We are created in Christ Jesus to good works.
      If your spirit is dead, dormant, no Holy Spirit reigning, you can’t get it to move to do any works but once BORN AGAIN OF THE SPIRIT, YOUR SPIRIT IS ALIVE UNTO GOOD WORKS.
      God accomplishes this in us, not by us.

  25. IMarianne, hold fast to the conviction of your heart. God is doing a mighty work in the hearts of His people….getting ready those who will greet Him at His return…those represented by the five wise virgins…those to whom the forerunner even today still cries “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his path straight.’ It was God by way of the Holy Spirit that compelled your heart to challenge the doctrine of OSAS as it is presented today. Only God convicts a heart of sin. Only God compells a heart to righteous living through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As a contemporary Christian, for a long time now God has been challenging me with the following, “Mr 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” My heart tells me we contemporary Christians are in danger of practicing ‘a form of godliness, but denying the power.’ I am understanding more fully each moment about David’s words, “Ps 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.”

    P.S. Where might I find ‘alienated’s” web site?

    Carolyn

  26. Ezekiel 18:18 “ As for his father,
    Because he cruelly oppressed,
    Robbed his brother by violence,
    And did what is not good among his people,
    Behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

    19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
    21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
    24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
    25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
    30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

  27. To all of those have have misunderstood the actual subject of this post, and have gone off on tangents that are not topically specific.

    This is not about the sins that are commited by those that truly seek the Lord in their life!
    We all do them, we all will continue to sin. Yeshua BECAUSE we are faithful FORGIVES.

    This is however, about those that have heard the word, accepted Yeshua, but then have continued to live basically the same secular life as they were beforehand, and expect the same promises to be fulfilled.
    (This could be for a variety of reasons. For some it could be because of emotional damage that they had experienced in their life that they have never addressed. Hence they still medicate that pain with what have you, drugs, alcohol, sex, food, or whatever. They still are dependant on their addictions.
    Others have personality defects due to the damage that caused them to be insecure. So they will have controlling issues, and will be domineering in relationships, must always be right, or it will sometimes manifest into issues of hoarding etc.)

    The point is, that for whatever the reasons that they maintain this lifestyle, they believe as you do. They believe that they are saved. Ask any Catholic for example that has premarital sex with numerous partners, and parties every weekend, yet confesses those sins, and does them all again the following week. They believe they are saved still.

    This post is not meant for those that truly seek the Lord! They are safe because they are fulfilling their “responsibilities”. They are abiding under His wings.
    It is rather for those that don’t understand their responsibilities.

    For example; I have been personally told in the past by an actual Director, of the “GraceWalk” movement and I quote, “God doesn’t even care if you try your best!”

    It is for people like this that this post is directed too. It is for those that don’t believe that they have to surrender to the process of Sanctification whatsoever.

    Psychologically, I find that this speaks volumes in respects as to, how so many appear to be unable to look beyond themselves regarding this topic and how it may affect them, rather than to understand how it could perhaps affect others?
    As well psychologically, it also is amazing to me as to how some, (Dru) actually resort to making it personal as well?

    I will make one last post regarding this topic when I return later this evening. Perhaps there will be those that will be able to look past themselves and see how Marianne posted this out of “love and concern” for “others” by then.

    Be Blessed

    • Alienated
      It has nothing to do with making this personal. I am outraged that you or whoever it is that wrote this post would support this fearmongering position. I understand the distinction you are making above, with regard to soul salvation and spirit salvation, But this is NOT what the above post claims. It is saying that salvation can be taken away because of sin. THIS IS NOT BIBLICAL.
      In my walk with God, I have “overcome” the flesh not by my own efforts, but by the work of the HS. It is when I relinquish my control and effort to the HS and admit that I am week, that God has helped me to overcome. You CANNOT “clean” yourself, Only God through his grace can. In your second paragraph you said “Yeshua(,) because we are faithful forgives” I would change two words in that statement to make it biblical. I would change “we are” to “He Is”. His forgiveness is ONLY by His grace, mercy, and love.

      Even 1 John 1:9 states that “If we confess our sins, HE IS FAITHFUL and just to forgive us our sins, and to CLEANSE US from all unrighteousness.” The only thing I see in this is God’s work and not our effort. The only thing we are responsible for is admitting our weekness by confessing our sinfulness, he takes care of the rest.

      I have no beef with you so as to make this personal, but it breaks my heart when people warp the Gospel as this post has done pointing to Religion and our works as “deserving” of Salvation. I could make exactly the opposite argument that the “falling away” refers to man taking responsibility for their salvation, thereby exalting themselves and saying “we are the source of our forgiveness”. This is Idolotry! and as a Christian I must rebuke anyone who is teaching this. I do so out of Love.

      May the Holy spirit show you why I am “up in arms” about this.

      • Alienated sorry to bother you again
        John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28. I give them eternal life, and they will NEVER perish, and NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand. 29. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and NO ONE is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30. I and the Father are one.”

        John 15:1ff “I am the true vine and my father is the vinedresser. 2.Every branch that does not bear fruit, he takes away(physically) and every branch that does not bear fruit he prunes (disciplines or reproves),That it may bear fruit. 3. ALREADY YOU ARE CLEAN BECAUSE OF TH WORD I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU. 4. ABIDE in me, and I in you (walk with God). As the branch CANNOT bear fruit by itself, unless it ABIDES in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5b …For apart from me you can DO nothing…”

        If you do not believe me, believe the words of Jesus himself. Once we are saved, we belong to him, and the Father. And will always belong to him. when he talks of Burning the branches, he is referring to physical death. He will take his possesion so as to keep his church pure. Spiritual salvation cannot be taken away. That is a promise of Christ. I think that whoever wrote the post above needs to word it better. Here is what the sight that I first brought up to you says regarding this topic. I suggest you read it.
        http://www.bibleone.net/Gods-remedy.htm

  28. If a person is truly saved by making a profession of faith, then I would think it would have to be followed by true repentance and the desire not to continue sinning. If this is true, and one is saved, then he/she is sealed FOREVER and shall not be lost.

  29. Mary Kay,
    Just to be clear, I don’t believe in good works for salvation as I made clear in my earlier post. I just distinguish (as the Bible does) the difference between works of the flesh and works of the Spirit. One leads to death and the other to life. It may profit you to do a study of this subject as you do not seem to properly distinguish between the two. Just a bit of friendly advice as I hope you will see it that way although I doubt it.–Stop reading the Bible for what you think or want it to say–rather than what it actually says. Your false doctrine of OSAS forces you to interpret passages into what they do not say as you wholly rely upon eisegesis instead of properly exegeting the scriptures resulting in forced interpretations that are strained and totally out of context. I could address every single point you bring up and much more but I doubt that you (and I) would benefit as you don’t seem to be open to inquiring debate.

    • Marianne you said to me,

      “It may profit you to do a study of this subject as you do not seem to properly distinguish between the two. Just a bit of friendly advice as I hope you will see it that way although I DOUBT IT.
      { ALL BOLD CAPS MY EMPHASIS}

      Stop reading the Bible FOR WHAT YOU THINK OR WANT IT TO SAY–RATHER THAN WHAT IT ACTUALLY SAYS.

      Your false doctrine of OSAS forces you to interpret passages into what THEY DO NOT SAY as you wholly rely upon eisegesis instead of PROPERLY exegeting the scriptures resulting in FORCED INTERPRETATIONS THAT ARE STRAINED AND TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT. I could address every single point you bring up and much more BUT I DOUBT THAT YOU WOULD BENIFIT AS YOU DON’T SEEM TO BE OPEN TO INQUIRING DEBATE.”

      Reading this makes me recall a scripture, “Pride cometh before the fall.”

      I have written many comments here, giving scriptures to back up what I believe. You have rarely mentioned them. Why is that?

      Are you always so rude to fellow believers Marianne?
      You should be ashamed of yourself how you insulted your sister in Christ. You are mean-spirited.

      I challenge you to take this post which you wrote and ask your husband, your pastor and an impartial believer to read what you wrote to me, not telling them you wrote it and ask them if the person who wrote this appears to be a Christian.

      You will know them by their fruit, right?

      Because of your rude and insulting demeanor I will no longer be commenting on your site.
      You will never persuade anyone with personal attacks and belittling them.

      Yeshua said, “With lovingkindness I have drawn you.”

      Mary Kay

      • hi Mary Kay

        The comment you were responding to above was written by Stuart , not me.

        If you notice, I wrote one thing, and I am allowing others to disagree with me.

        This is because this is an important topic, and the truth is greater than our personal opinions.

        On this topic, the most I have done so far is ask “thought questions,” which is just trying to have the other person think about my view more, and consider that aspect of the issue, and give an answer from scripture.

        When there is a debate going on, expect others to tell you that you are wrong.

        I do not think Stuart meant any offense. He just thinks you are wrong.

        So, if you think he is wrong, then use scriptures to answer his points.

        I will watch and make sure nothing gets “too far out there” with personal remarks.

        be blessed.

      • Unfortunately,

        The above post would be an example of the “volumes” that I spoke of in my post of July 4th. @ 3:46 pm.
        Psychologically, this would be an expression of emotional immaturity, where a stated observation by one, was perceived as a personal attack, or judgment by another. The ensuing hurt that the individual experienced, whether real, or fabricated caused the reactionary, rather than rationalized response to be defensive and retaliatory.
        This would be commonly referred to as being the “fight or flight” mechanism.

        We as being God’s creation as humans, created in His image, are comprised of “body mind/soul and spirit”.
        I have always been amazed as to how there are so many of us that work so diligently on their spirituality, yet appear to ignore the opportunities for potential growth within the emotional aspect of their being.

        Nonetheless, this is the result of fighting. Lines are drawn in the sand and division is established.
        As I stated within the content of my post of July 5th. @ 3:15 am, this is an opportunity for all of us to discover the truth of God’s word regarding this particular subject. However, due to the passion that is involved, we must all approach it with caring and gentleness to and for each other.

        If we don’t, satan laughs, and our Lord must surely weep.

        Be Blessed

  30. To all
    “let him who has no sin cast the first stone”

    Jesus.

  31. TO ALL.

    Okay there is obviously a disagreement in theology here.
    However if a non Christian were to visit this site, I suspect they would find it laughable because we all, (including myself) are acting like children. We are brothers and sisters in Yeshua, and in my opinion, remarks have become condescending and arrogant.

    So instead of butting heads, why don’t we all attempt to figure this out, because both sides have Scripture that is supportive to their personal point of view?
    How about instead of utilizing adjectives like ridiculous, to knock down someone else’s belief, we work together instead?

    Perhaps neither side is completely correct in their understanding? Perhaps its not simply black and white?
    Perhaps it is a mixture of both ideologies that is correct? It is not my objective to try to be right in my belief. Rather, I only hope to find out what it is that is God’s truth.

    If that possibly sounds like a positive step in the right direction, I will say the following in which I will happily receive input or opposing thoughts from others, rather than condemnation.

    The way I have thought things through is like this, The New Testament is a fulfilling and continuation of the Old.
    The Old is a foreshadowing of the New, and there are many examples to prove that premise.
    Abraham and Isaac being a type of foreshadowing of Yeshua’s sacrifice. Joseph’s coat as well, being made of many colors, dipped in blood and returned to his father would again be representative of the same. The marriage of Boaz and Ruth, being a foreshadowing of the Ten Virgin parable etc. etc. So I believe that we would all agree that the New is a continuation of the Old correct?

    In the past then, for one example, in utilizing say Deuteronomy 6, when the Law was still in effect, the people had responsibilities to observe the Law. There was a method though impossible and ineffectual but there nonetheless, for the people to reconcile themselves to God.

    Then the New Covenant was established after Yeshua’s death, resurrection and ascension.
    The Law in the New Covenant was then replaced by the Holy Spirit on Shavuot (Pentecost) and the “Age of Grace” began.

    So, for those that believe in OSAS which you indeed have Scripture that is supportive to that premise, how would we understand Scripture then that appears to support an opposing position like, John 15:6., James 5:20., or Hebrews 10:36-38?

    Maybe some of the passages are not relating to the loss of Salvation? Perhaps they are referring to the loss of being raptured instead? Passages such as Philippians 3:8-15 appear to substantiate this possibility.

    ” 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

    9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

    10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death,

    11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

    13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,

    14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.”

    There are clearly verses that represent rewards, (which does imply that this would be something that the believer themselves would attain). There are also verses that imply that there is the opportunity for “loss” of some sort as well.

    Fighting amongst ourselves is not only childish, it accomplishes nothing.
    Again I suggest that we all attempt to work this all out together.

    Peace and Be Blessed

    • Alienated
      Thank you for that, and may God be glorified.
      My two cents, for what it is worth. We are called to live by the HS, which is a Good thing, and we are called to walk by the HS. (from Galations 5, as quoted to Don) I see this like being a child learning to ride a bike. When we live by the HS we ride around with our training wheels on and it gives us balance and stability. When we take those training wheels off, we are bound to fall, we get back up, and try again. We might even fall so bad that we break our leg, and have to go to the “Physician”. Eventually, however, we figure out that the balance comes from within us. As we get older, we begin to ride around with no hands, or do “tricks”. If we did not overcome our fear of not having the crutch, which is the training wheels, or the church, we would never be able to learn “How” to ride a bicycle. Such is our Relationship with God. He puts the training wheels on the bike, for a reason, then he takes them of for a reason, then he will walk alongside us holding the bike, so as to reassure us, and eventually he lets go. If we happen to fall, he comes by and picks us up and comforts us, and encourages us to get back on that bike. Such is the Love of The Father for his own child.

      As for fighting amongst ourselves, Brother will always duke it out amongst each other, but you cannot take away the fact that they are brothers. In that sense, I believe this can be a good example to new christians. Especially if we can resolve our differences. Your humility in your response showed your apology, and I owe you one as well for the harshness of my response.

      Going back to the bike analogy, If we learn to ride our bikes w/o training wheels, and then proceed to go and crash our bikes into things as was popularized on an MTV show whose name I cannot mention (has to do with donkeys), eventually our father is going to ignore our cries for help. He might even allow us to die for our stupidity. But, Nonetheless, we are still his child, and it does not glorify him to have us choose that path.

      Such is our sojourn with God.

      “As for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.” Gal.6:16

  32. Thank you for “setting the table” alienated. You are correct as the Old and New Testaments are descriptions of the covenant relationships throughout the ages establish by God, between Himself, and humankind. Various covenants are described throughout Scripture such as the Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Hebrew Covenant at Moab, Davidic Covenant etc.–as well as the New Covenant–in which Jesus is the mediator. Some of these covenants were unconditional in nature where the Lord God as sovereign creator effects a covenant with the other party in which the other party has no demands or obligations to fulfill in order for the covenant to become fulfilled. Other covenants however, were conditional in nature where God demands certain obligations by the other party which can result in blessing or cursing depending whether these obligations were met or unmet as the case may be. To be succinct and to the point, the focal question is: Is the New Covenant unconditional or conditional in nature? How one answers this question determines whether one believes salvation is once for all and cannot be lost or can indeed be forfeited through disobedience.

    • this mind set leads me to wonder how good is good enough to be “saved” then….and how wicked is bad enough to be lost…..

      • No need to wonder…the specifics are in Scripture.

      • hi fireaiys

        This issue is important, so you will see a debate here.

        My hope is to not question any initial true born again experience, but to examine conversions that fail, when the people go back to sinful ways willingly, and reject God, and do not repent.

        Were they really saved to begin with? If yes, then why did they turn away?

        It seems like if they were really saved, this would not happen.

        There is a difference between a saint weakening for moments and sinning, and a hardened heart that wants to sin.

        The saint will regret what he did, and repent, while the other one will not.

        Hope you are doing ok.

  33. the lost have turned away from seeking JESUS because reading stuff like this.

    Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    It is not advisable to depend on someone else’s interpretation for one’s personal salvation. My salvation is between me and GOD alone.

  34. To answer the question’s related to Once Saved Always Saved…one needs to answer the questions raised by the doctrine of Imputed Righteousness. The questions seems to be, ‘Does God require fruitfulness/good works/righteousness/resurrection living…or does He condone our remaining in dead works and sin…even covering it by the stamp of approval of His atoning blood?

    • Yes, internet elias, the doctrine of imputed righteousness teaches that when we believe in Christ, his righteousness is imputed to us so that we are washed clean and are always righteous in our standing before God. Therefore, all of our past, present and future sins have already been forgiven. It is Christ’s righteousness that saves us as we play no part in this equation at all except to believe. The primary scripture that OSAS advocates use for their belief is Rom 4:6-8:
      6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
      7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
      And whose sins are covered;
      8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[a]
      Judging from this context it would seem that our justification is complete and our sins are not counted against us. Note V6 where God imputes righteousness apart from any works on our part and also the result in V8 where God consequently does not impute sin to us. OSASers say this is the proof and already a done deal. Really?
      However, taken in its proper context, Paul is quoting David from Psalm 32 where David is acknowledging and confessing his sin before God and as a result of doing so, receives God’s forgiveness:
      5 I acknowledged my sin to You,
      And my iniquity I have not hidden.
      I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,”
      And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. Selah
      We know that David was a man after God’s own heart. Although he committed sins such as murder and adultery, he confessed those sins and turned away from them thus evidencing his repentance. Judged from this context we can see that our sins are not automatically forgiven as repentance is prerequisite to the receiving of forgiveness.
      Moreover, the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is a doubtful doctrine when confronted with verses such as:
      1 John 2:29
      If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who PRACTICES RIGHTEOUSNESS is born of Him.
      1 John 3:7
      Little children, let no one deceive you. He WHO PRACTICES RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS, just as He is righteous.
      To summarize, we cannot save ourselves as our righteousness in and of itself, does not merit our salvation. However on the other hand, our righteous acts of obedience show us as approved before God and keep us in right standing before Him. It is not an automatic thing as OSAS would have us believe.

    • I believe if a person is every TRULY saved, there will be a change in that person’s life that will be evident both to the people around that person and to that person. The old man is dead. The desire and want to do fleshly things might not be immediately totally taken away (sometimes in some people they are) but if that person is saved, eventually that mess will go.

      1Co 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

      The definition of expedient is as follows: to bear together (contribute), that is, (literally) to collect, or (figuratively) to conduce; especially (neuter participle as noun) advantage: – be better for, bring together, be expedient (for), be good, (be) profit (-able for).

      The writer of the above verse plainly states all things are lawful for him to do, but not all things are good for him to do-he can do them but it isn’t good for him to

      1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

      GOD doesn’t intend for us to abuse HIS grace. A true believer may fall, but it won’t necessarily initially be because of willful sinning.

      If a believer goes too far and gets into fornication, GOD has the answer for that one too and it is as follows:

      1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
      1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
      1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
      1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
      1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

      I believe the WORD very directly explains above what will happen to a believer living in fornication.

      GOD is long suffering, forgiving and patient, that is evidenced by the state of today’s world. Just because HE is, doesn’t give people the right to sin. People should remember that GOD is also a vengeful, just GOD….that is the side of HIM that I would prefer not to see personally.

      Thank you Marianne, for messaging me back and clarifying what exactly you were meaning in this post.

      GOD bless you all in the name of JESUS

  35. To many people writes that Allah is satan on this blog. Allah is the Arabic word for God. I.m an Christian from the middle east and i don´t like Islam but try to understand something. Almost every Christian from the middle east says Allah to God.

    God in Hebrew = Elohim
    God in Arameic = Elah
    God in Arabic = Allah
    Elohim in English = God

  36. Interesting discussion to an old question. I do believe that Romans 10:9 says a lot about all of this, but what are the implications?

    Romans 10:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    I believe the somewhat trivial manner in which the West has handled some scriptures, has led to many doctrines that are based on a superficial understanding of what is actually being said. On the outside, Romans 10:9 seems to mean to many in our culture, that all you have to do, is at some point in your life, do the repeat after me prayer and acknowledge in your thinking that Yahshua was raised from the dead. Taking the very basics of the words confess and believe and you have fulfilled all and are ready to go. Since you can’t lose anything, what you do from then on is taken care of and out of your control. Yah will take care of it all.
    The following is the parable of the sower of the seed:

    Mark 4:1-25
    Amplified Bible (AMP)
    Mark 4

    1AGAIN JESUS began to teach beside the lake. And a very great crowd gathered about Him, so that He got into a ship in order to sit in it on the sea, and the whole crowd was at the lakeside on the shore.
    2And He taught them many things in parables (illustrations or comparisons put beside truths to explain them), and in His teaching He said to them:
    3Give attention to this! Behold, a sower went out to sow.
    4And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
    5Other seed [of the same kind] fell on ground full of rocks, where it had not much soil; and at once it sprang up, because it had no depth of soil;
    6And when the sun came up, it was scorched, and because it had not taken root, it withered away.
    7Other seed [of the same kind] fell among thorn plants, and the thistles grew and pressed together and utterly choked and suffocated it, and it yielded no grain.
    8And other seed [of the same kind] fell into good (well-adapted) soil and brought forth grain, growing up and increasing, and yielded up to thirty times as much, and sixty times as much, and even a hundred times as much as had been sown.
    9And He said, He who has ears to hear, let him be hearing [and let him [a]consider, and comprehend].
    10And as soon as He was alone, those who were around Him, with the Twelve [apostles], began to ask Him about the parables.
    11And He said to them, To you has been entrusted the mystery of the kingdom of God [that is, [b]the secret counsels of God which are hidden from the ungodly]; but for those outside [[c]of our circle] everything becomes a parable,
    12In order that they may [indeed] look and look but not see and perceive, and may hear and hear but not grasp and comprehend, [d]lest haply they should turn again, and it [[e]their willful rejection of the truth] should be forgiven them.
    13And He said to them, Do you not discern and understand this parable? How then is it possible for you to discern and understand all the parables?
    14The sower sows the Word.
    15The ones along the path are those who have the Word sown [in their hearts], but when they hear, Satan comes at once and [by force] takes away the message which is sown in them.
    16And in the same way the ones sown upon stony ground are those who, when they hear the Word, at once receive and accept and welcome it with joy;
    17And they have no real root in themselves, and so they endure for a little while; then when trouble or persecution arises on account of the Word, they immediately are offended (become displeased, indignant, resentful) and they stumble and fall away.
    18And the ones sown among the thorns are others who hear the Word;
    19Then the cares and anxieties of the world and distractions of the age, and the pleasure and delight and false glamour and deceitfulness of riches, and the craving and passionate desire for other things creep in and choke and suffocate the Word, and it becomes fruitless.
    20And those sown on the good (well-adapted) soil are the ones who hear the Word and receive and accept and welcome it and bear fruit–some thirty times as much as was sown, some sixty times as much, and some [even] a hundred times as much.
    21And He said to them, Is the lamp brought in to be put under a [f]peck measure or under a bed, and not [to be put] on the lampstand?
    22[[g]Things are hidden temporarily only as a means to revelation.] For there is nothing hidden except to be revealed, nor is anything [temporarily] kept secret except in order that it may be made known.
    23If any man has ears to hear, let him be listening and let him perceive and comprehend.
    24And He said to them, Be careful what you are hearing. The measure [h][of thought and study] you give [to [i]the truth you hear] will be the measure [j][of virtue and knowledge] that comes back to you–and more [besides] will be given to you who hear.
    25For to him who has will more be given; and from him who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away [[k]by force],
    Reading this carefully and sincerely shows that it is not those who “TRY” salvation in a moment of emotional weakness or in need of a remedy to some trial in their life, or those who want salvation and the world, that receive the promise. These are personal decisions that rest on a persons understanding of what Romans 10:9 means. Taking comfort in a point in time, when you went through the “process” of salvation, is futile. Salvation is always present and ongoing.
    The following is an excerpt about an early Aramaic Codex;

    “The Khabouris (also spelled Khaburis) Codex is a copy of the oldest known Eastern Canon of the New Testament in its native, and the original language of the Scriptures, Aramaic. The physical manuscript has been carbon-dated at approximately 1000 AD plus or minus 50 years. The colophon bears the seal and signature of the Bishop at the Church at Nineveh, then capital of the Assyrian Empire located today in the present-day Iraqi city of Mosul. According to colophon it is a copy of a text from approximately 164 AD (internally documented as 100 years after the great persecution of the Christians by Nero, in 65AD). It was scribed on lamb parchment and hand bound between olive wood covers adorned with gold clasps, hinges and corner-brackets. The scribe would have been in ancient Nineveh (present-day Mosul, Iraq), according to the Colophon signed by a Bishop of the Church at Nineveh. Of particular interest, is the fact that the Khabouris is written entirely in Aramaic, the tongue of Y’Shua, otherwise popularly known as Jesus, the Nazarite”.

    In the Kahbouris manuscript, concerning the verse in Romans 10:9, there is an isolated samekh between “confess” and “with your mouth”. The information I have did not go into the significance of this, so I searched it out. The samekh is the fifteenth letter of both the Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets and means basically the same in both languages, which is “to prop or support”. This is my understanding of what this adds to the verse in Romans 10:9;
    The believing of our faith in Yahshua, in the heart, is propped up and supported by the confession of our mouth. In other words, without the external fruit (our behaviour.i.e. WORKS) our believing in the heart at a minimum is made suspect, if not nullified. Just as in the book of James that faith without works is dead.

    Matthew 7:21-23
    Amplified Bible (AMP)

    21Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES* the will of My Father Who is in heaven.
    22Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name and driven out demons in Your name and done many mighty works in Your name?
    23And then I will say to them openly (publicly), I never knew you; depart from Me, you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].

    This is the judgment seat of Mashiach, judging believers concerning their works. Very sobering. I know that we have had this discussion ad nauseam, but is needful.

    *Emphasis Mine

    • Yes, I think the implications are staggering. Jesus in his conversation with the rich young ruler who desired eternal life did not say to the young man–“just repeat the sinner’s prayer”–a practice most churches would invoke. Instead Jesus admonished the man and stated that there was a cost to following Jesus; a price that the young man was not willing to pay at the time. If the rich young ruler came down the church aisle in response to an altar call, I doubt that any church would deny him and would simply tell him to invite Jesus into his heart. We often look for converts who then sometimes fall away. God looks for true disciples.

      • Stuart
        I know I am on the opposite side on this issue. Your last sentence strikes a chord. Can you explain what discipleship is in your view? I also do agree that the sinners prayer is a joke. Belief is the beginning of faith but it “matures”.

        • druZ,
          Perhaps we are not as far apart as you think. For most of my life, I used to believe in OSAS because that is what I was taught. It literally took me years to change my view after I could no longer reconcile it with what I read in Scripture. I agree with you that belief is the beginning of faith and that it is supposed to mature. However, as ashupert2 pointed out in the parable of the sower, not all the seeds the sower sowed, matured to bear fruit. I guess when it comes down to it, we as disciples are supposed to bear fruit and we can bear fruit only as long as we abide in the vine. If we do not abide (i.e. listen, follow and obey) Jesus says we as branches become withered and are cast into the fire (Jn15).
          Jesus commented on discipleship in this way:
          Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. Matt 16:24-25
          We cannot simply go on living our lives as we please as if we were never saved in the first place. I know am am guilty of that and I’m not lecturing anyone else. All I know is that there is a cost to following Christ and I’m not always willing to pay that cost. Only by God’s grace am I able to continue the journey and take some solace in Paul’s encouragement to “finish the race” and “fight the good fight.” I wish I had known these truths much earlier in my Christian life as I would have really understood what I was getting into instead of simply seeing it as an instant ticket to heaven. It would have saved me much heartbreak and regret. Nonetheless I can only press on and leave the past behind. I hope this has helped you in some way. May the Lord keep you and preserve you brother!

          • Stuart
            That is well said. I too have had a similar experience, but It involved a church that would not allow its members to mature. My question for you is this: Has not your “heartbreak and regret” made your faith stronger? In other words, You would never consider going back to where you were.

            I think the question we need to ask is what constitutes Good soil with regard to the parable of the sower? “good soil” has a lot of “decomposing matter” in it. I think the Fault lies in the church for “sowing” in the bad soil. This is the problem with the church as an institution, who is more concerned about membership numbers and the generousity of its members Than it is with allowing its members to Mature. The parable of the weeds (wheat and tares) is the same. Everybody focuses on the “burning of the Tares”, but never on who it is that sowed them, namely, “an enemy”.

            When the church is concerned with numbers, It sows in the bad soil. When a church is concerned with making disciples, it learns to “prepare” the soil into which it sows. Preparing the soil is making them aware of their “decomposing Matter”. If you look at Jesus’ ministry, every time the numbers of followers swelled, he would say something “controversial” and the numbers would dwindle again. He was in fact removing the “bad seed” from amongst his ranks. Everybody wants the rewards of Faith, few are actually willing to “pay the price”. Or “Many are called, but few are Chosen”. The church is the sower, but because it is more concerned with building a worldly kingdom than a heavenly one, It sows on the “bad soil”, and the result is we have tares among the wheat.
            (Yes I am purposely putting these two parables together as they were spoken at the same time, regarding the same topic.)

            If you are a child of God, and you are choosing to be one Knowing the cost of discipleship, there is nothing that can separate you from the Love of God, and from him calling you his Child and heir. You may fall into sin, and succumb to temptation, You may even fall into the grips of a false religion, but if you are his, he will bring you out of it. In fact, a person may not even know that they are “living in sin” for sin has the ability to deceive its “host”. My sins that the Lord pulled me out of were pride and self righteousness. That is why I am Adamant about my oposition to these sins. For an alcoholic that was rescued, they would be adamant in their oposition to drinking. In order for God to deal with my Pride, he had to give me “flaws” in my character, and for my self righteousness, he had to “silence” my condemnation of others. For the past twenty or so years, I had not been able to Communicate my beliefs nor “overcome” my Flaws. Then he, by His grace, decided to “allowe me” to overcome. That whole time, I never doubted my salvation nor my “relationship with him”. He was always there. So yes I believe in once saved always saved. because I have lived it. I have also seen the seed sown in the bad soil by careless sowers who think that going to church is what God is concerned with, or obeying the Old covenent “laws” to the letter. Yes the law is important, but God would rather have a “pure heart” withe Law written upon it than a obedient pawn who obeys out of fear of judgement.

            I know that some of these last parts are “hard to digest” for someone who is in the church, or leading a church, or in someway thinks that we earn our salvation by our works. But this is How Jesus weeded out the tares when he was building His kingdom, and teaching his disciples. It is like the “little scroll” in revalation. God’s Judgement “Tastes sweet” But it will make you sick when you see all those souls lost.

            • druZ,
              It seems we have traveled parallel roads. I have not thought of the the church as being like the “enemy” but agree with what you have stated as the result I have seen has been like you describe. It has always saddened me that in my experience, the church has operated like an organization instead of a living organism. It is more concerned about its maintenance and perpetuation rather than about the well-being and maturation of the flock. When push comes to shove, my experience has been that the organization takes precedent over the organism, i.e, the people. I say this from my experience as a full time staff pastor for a church over a decade ago. I hated being referred to with the title of pastor as it creates a divide between clergy and laity and negated or minimized the universal priesthood of all believers. Many times (not all) the institutional church becomes the Kingdom rather than advancing God’s kingdom. As you say, tares and wheat grow up in the church and you cannot tell them apart because we are conditioned to “put on our good face” when we attend church rather than admit and confess our hidden sins that we might be forgiven and healed. I am all too familiar with my getting into an argument with my wife right before church and putting on my “smiley face” as I stepped unto the church parking lot. Hypocrite!! I think that goats and sheep are part of the church too. When we moved to a rural area, I was surprised to see how difficult it is to sometimes differentiate between the two species. To make a long story short, out of disillusionment I quit “the ministry” and no longer attend church opting to house church instead. I don’t like to bash the church but I feel that instead of the body participating and using their spiritual gifts to encourage and to edify one another, church instead has become the biggest spectator sport on any given Sunday with the vast majority simply sitting in the pews. It does not correlate with what I see in the New Testament. My greatest concern is that we have people who attend church every Sunday who are lukewarm but think they are saved. I used to think that being lukewarm while not as good as hot, was at least better than being cold. However, they are like the proverbial frog in the tea kettle. As the water warms in the kettle, the frog can adjust his body temperature (in the same way that we can accommodate sin in our lives) until it is too late and the frog is boiled to death (spiritual death resulting from chronic and habitual sin). At least those who are cold know that their relationship with Jesus is cold and estranged but they are aware that they still have the opportunity to make things right and repent. Those that are lukewarm think they are safe and see no need to repent. That’s why Jesus says he will spit the lukewarm out of his mouth.

            • Luke 15:7 “Just so, I tell you, There will be more Joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than ninety nine righteous people who need no repentence.”
              Luke 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that you were commanded, say,’we are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.
              luke 22:32 “but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And when you have TURNED AGAIN, STRENGTHEN YOUR BROTHERS.

              I find it interesting that Peter’s denial of Christ is in all four Gospels.

              I was Just finishing reading Luke, and these verses popped up regarding the topic at hand. 22:32 in Particular. Luke is the only Gospel which says that as the cock crowed, Jesus turned and looked at Peter, which led him to leave and weep in repentence.

              I am beginning to think that each of us will undergo a test of our faith as Peter did, where we “turn away” from the Lord and deny him. It is the easy way out of a “Jam”. If we “return again” we will be in a position to Strengthen our brothers. I am beginning to think that this is the point at which we realize “the cost of discipleship”.

              Any thoughts?

          • Stuart, your last sentence brought me to tears “the cost of discipleship”, what a chord that struck my heart when i finally came to this realization…but my heart pants and quakes for the one’s I love who are still veiled …my story is much the same as yours…I finally could not reconcile what I had been taught for so long to what scripture was teaching me…that, along with experiences and gentle guidance from the Holy Spirit, my veil was lifted…i still struggle and wonder will i ever be the person Christ has always meant me to be…Nevertheless, I press onward towards the prize, not backward…blessing brother!

    • Hello Al
      What are the fruit of the spirit then?

    • Al
      Let’s put it this way. Let us say you are living in Germany at the time of Hitler. Out of Love for another, you choose to hide some Jews in your house, similar to the Ten Boom story. A german SS officer comes to your house, and asks if there are any Jews living there, You say no. As you know, food is rationed and your ration is not enough to feed all the people in your house. So you find “other ways” to get food such as the black market. Perhaps you are even led to kill someone who is about to turn you in. Heaven forbid you have to feed those jewish people unKosher food.

      You now have broken five of the laws God has given us. Or would you have stuck to your guns and obeyed God’s law to the letter.

      Yes those were hard times, and people had to make “hard choices”. In our country we have the luxury of “abiding by the law”, Yet we still live in a sinful world. And If current events are any indication, the times are going to get harder for us. We will be forced to make those “hard choices”. If you are living by the law for the Laws sake, then you will not produce the fruit of the spirit, which we are “To be known for”.

      • Hey Dru,

        Good to hear from you! The scenario you put forth could have a lot of different outcomes depending on who you are talking about.

        Mark 2:23-28
        King James Version (KJV)

        23And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.

        24And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?

        25And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?

        26How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?

        27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

        28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

        In the case of David, he was justified in doing what he did on the Sabbath. It is said of David that his ways were perfect before Yah, except in the case of Uriah the Hittite. Nothing else is mentioned. He was so highly thought of by Yah that Yahshua was called the Son of David. Read some of David’s Psalms and you will see it. What Yahshua said about the Sabbath, also goes for the Torah. We weren’t made to be under these things. They were given to help us in our journey here on this earth. The term, “curse of the law”, applies to those who are not born again and try and earn salvation through keeping the law. I will submit to you that what David did in the verse above, he did because of his relationship with Yah. I truly believe that a profane person, who despised the instructions of Yah and committed the same transgression, would have received the fullness of the appropriate penalty. But David understood that the Torah (keeping the Sabbath) was a blessing to him, not a penalty or “curse”. David in the flesh was extremely imperfect, but his attitude for the things of Yah was perfect and David was not held accountable (this is the true meaning of Grace, which by the way was present in the OT). Yah is looking for such in us. The church castigates things they have never really tried to understand, basically because we have been force fed just the opposite of what He desires of us in this earthly sojourn. We only have half of the equation. We understand basically what salvation is, but don’t have a clue about obedience in this earthly walk we are in. Try and see the picture of what Yah is doing in us. He plants His seed in us (the seed of the woman (the Word), if we are fertile ground, and makes us His. Then He makes us His workmanship (bearing fruit) if we are obedient. I know you don’t see or understand any of this. It is easy to tell by the disparaging way you talk about the commandments. This has always been about the remnant, not the multitudes. Honestly, if I acquiesced to your view of the instructions for life, being done away with, I would be missing one of the greatest blessings in my life. It is not about the letter of the law, as you can see in the scripture above, but it is about walking according to His Word and the approval of the Father. It is like I have said before, I have been where you are , but you have not seen or experienced what I have. It is not about rules and regulations, it is about pleasing the Father and endeavoring to walking the way He has told us to walk. You see it as being put under bondage, yet I see it as being liberated. After Jacob struggled with the Angel of Yah, he never walked the same again. So it is to be with us. Yahshua and Torah are one. That is why He is called the Word in the opening verses of John in the NT. Anyone who works to try and undo that is unwittingly working against Him!!!! I am not trying to be condescending here, just honest. Keeping the Torah, under the guidance of Ruach HaKodesh is of greatest benefit and will bear much fruit. My prayer is that the many who have been held back from seeing these things, will have there eyes opened in these last days, to receive the fullness that Yah has for us.

        Be Blessed In Mashiach

        • Al
          this is hard to say, but i actually agree with you. Especially when you put it in the terms of a relationship and walk with God. I am not trying to undo the law, but to make people aware that “walking with God” is more important. I think if you look back on my discussions with James among others, My belief has always been that the sanctifying work of the HS will lead to obedience to the Law. My Past involved me being “legalistic and self righteous”, and my reaction to those that go waving the law around and saying how “superior” they are for obeying it as did the pharisees, can be “harsh”. It is like a former alcoholic who says that drinking any alcoholic beverage is evil. He is reacting to his past experience with alcohol, and not to the fact that even Jesus himself drank wine. (Yes i have heard the argument that they had to cause the water was bad)

          Like the former alcoholic, who lambastes anyone that drinks, I too am guilty of this with people that “obey the law”. I have always known that the work of the HS leads to obedience. But for me, it must be the HS that leads me there and not my own “striving”.

          So forgive me if I have been harsh with you in the past. Please try and understand my “weakness”. For future reference, your explanation above is a far better way to approach a someone with my background. There are many people out there who have been disillusioned by the church, and quoting do’s and don’ts automatically reverts them to that past experience.

          By the Lord’s grace, and the sanctifying work of the HS I am further along on this quest than you stated above. I cannot take credit for any of his work in me though.

          God Bless. Do not forget, the only reason we can have the Law written on our hearts is because of the cross.

          • Hey Dru,

            Thanks for writing back. Only have time for a quick response. You haven’t been harsh with me and I am not offended in any way. Hope I did not offend you. Was not my intent. I know that what I write will cause push back. I expect it. It goes along with the territory. But these things need to be discussed. We are all going to have this issue play out in our lives, either now in this present age, when there is something we can do about it. or at the judgment seat of Mashiach. Believe me, it is better
            now than later. As an interesting side not, in Matthew Chapter 7 where Yahshua said “I never knew
            you”, the word “knew” has nothing to do with recognition. It carries the same meaning as the “knew” in Genisis when Adam knew his wife. It is a term of intimacy and becoming one. Could that be, what being the least in the kingdom of Heaven is? Being there, but without intimacy with Messiah. A very chlling thought, at least for those of us who treaure our relationship with Him above everything else. I know that we all look at commentaries and different tranlsations, but the choices we make in what we believe are ours and ours alone. We will not have a defense advocate standing there with us to get us off. I don’t want anyone believing me about all of this. All I am looking for is to put a question out there so that those who care will seek out the answer. There is too much that has been said about this subject, in the scriptures, to automatically believe the historical view.

            Always good to hear from you Brother!!

            • To all.

              The word that was translated into the English “knew” in Matthew 7:23 is from the transliterated Greek word “Ginosko” (Strong’s 1097) and its definitions are as follows;
              to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
              to become known
              to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
              to understand
              to know
              Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
              to become acquainted with, to know.

              The word that was translated into the English “know” in Matthew 25:12 is from the transliterated Greek word “Eido” (Strong’s 1492) and its definition are as follows;

              to see
              to perceive with the eyes
              to perceive by any of the senses
              to perceive, notice, discern, discover
              to see
              i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
              to pay attention, observe
              to see about something 1d
              i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
              to inspect, examine
              to look at, behold
              to experience any state or condition
              to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
              to know
              to know of anything
              to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
              of any fact
              the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
              to know how, to be skilled in
              to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to

              Be Blessed

  37. Stuart, well said.

  38. King David did some pretty bad stuff. Sexual sin, greed, murderer. Guess we wont see him there.

  39. Mary Kay. Somehow I get the feeling you are getting ganged up on. Here is the simple truth that everyone keeps trying to “add to” unnecessarily. It is this. G-d forgave us of ALL our sins, past, present, and future and if one trusts in G-d, there is no more one can do to on his/her own to get to Heaven. It’s a done deal. We are sealed for all eternity. Like I said before, if one decides to “turn away from G-d”, then one was never saved in the first place. Yes… I sin 24/7, but G-d took care of that for me. I don’t EVER turn from HIM. He is my savior no matter what I do.

    • I am curious JRA…if you could respond to my question based upon what you believe. I do not doubt that you are a genuine believer and you are sincere in your belief that all of our sins–past, present and future are already forgiven–as you refer–a “done deal.” Based upon what you believe as a practical matter, should we go through the tribulation period, would you have no problem then in accepting the mark of the beast? I realize this is a hypothetical question but if you believe God forgives all future sin no matter what, then to be consistent in you belief, you would also not object in accepting the mark for yourself. I think you can see the quandary this would present. I am correct or is there an alternative explanation?

      • Stuart
        If I may Jump in. My beliefs on End times are somewhat different than most, and your question is a really good one. All people who are saved prior to the end times will either A. be raptured, B, Enter the tribulation, and be killed as a “testimony” to unbelievers. Those then who remain are “not saved”. The testimony of those believers who “choose” to not be raptured which will reach the whole world, will then be given as the choice, or the antithesis of the mark of the beast. Kind of like a one shot deal to believe in Jesus or deny Jesus, There is, however, no repenting from this denial. One choice will let you buy and sell, and proceed with life as normal, while the other means at best poverty and hunger, at worst persecution and death.

        Interestingly, when those that are killed giving their testimony, The HS will no longer be on earth to restrain the Man of lawlessness, and he will reveal himself.

        • DruZ,
          Although we could debate the order and timing of end times events, I hesitate to do so since it is a difficult subject for me to grasp and it is a whole topic in and of itself. However I agree in general to what you have stated above. The point I was trying to get across to JRA was that if our future sins are automatically forgiven, then that would also have to include personally accepting the mark of the beast. However, we know that this is not the case as Revelation warns that God’s wrath remains on those who receive the mark. Therefore it is false to say that all sins are automatically forgiven because we know of at least one sin that will not be forgiven. And because such is the case, the doctrine of imputed righteousness, being permanently sealed, and being justified unconditionally begins to unravel in my opinion.

        • Hi Dru and Stuart,

          Dru, it is my belief that when the “shout, the voice of the archangel, and the trumpet of God” is sounded there will be those of the secular population that will in their understanding, hear “booms and thundering” and have no comprehension as to what is happening.

          Then there will be those that are believers, that will actually hear the shout of the archangel (literally), and hear the actual trumpet of God. I derive this from John 12:28,29.

          “28 Father, glorify Your name.” Then a voice came from heaven, saying, “I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.” 29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to Him.”

          You know that from my studies, that it is my opinion, that not all who believe will be able to enter through that door, or be included within that resurrection. For that is the “prize” that we all should be striving for.

          “14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:14.

          It is one of the rewards that is received for serving out of love faithfully, and this choosing of the bride for our Lord, is one of the main focal points for the “age of Grace”.

          “2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.” 2 Corinthians 11:2.

          The reason that I do not believe that you will have a choice to stay or not, (though of course, this would be up to God) would be;

          (1) There is no scriptural evidence available to support in having a choice.

          And,

          (2) If one is chosen, it you will be changed in a “moment” in a blink of an eye, which means that this will either happen to an individual before they even have a chance to realize it, or it won’t.

          The word that is translated into the English “moment” (1 Corinthians 15:52) is the Greek ” Atomos”, (Strong’s 823). It indicates by its definition that the segment of time would be so minute, that it can’t even be cut in two.

          So we will have no input or choice in the matter whatsoever.
          The decision itself is left up to God and Yeshua based upon Their prerequisites and as to how we demonstrated our faith during our lives.

          It will simply happen for some, or it won’t.

          Be Blessed

          • Alienated
            If you could, please answer stuarts question with regard to the mark of the beast. Just curious to see how this fits in with your interpretation.

            I know that my position on the “who” of the rapture is a hard one to prove biblically. I have arrived at it from years of study, asking questions like the one Stuart asked. In a sense, (and do not get on my case about this) This understanding that Mature Christians will enter the tribulation comes from what is NOT said in scripture, as opposed to “direct” scriptural reference. It has been revealed to me by the HS in my studies, when I asked for wisdom regarding certain scriptures.

            An example: During the upper room discourse, Jesus says to the apostles “I still have many things to say to you, But you cannot bear them now. 13. When the SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the THINGS THAT ARE TO COME.” (John 16:12,13)

            Traditional theology has said that the “Spirit of truth” is different from the HS, in that it is who God Used to “inspire” the scriptures as written by the apostles after Jesus departed. My question is this, Did that Spirit of truth leave after the Bible was completed, or does he still dwell among us, “guiding us into all truth”? Or were those things in the bible which were sealed for a future time, or those things which the apostles “could not bear” all revealed in the scriptures? I believe they are all “in the Bible” but our understanding is incapable of “interpreting them” without the spirit of Truth. My belief in this concept that the Mature Christians will “opt out” of the rapture comes from understanding Jesus “new commandment”, and questions like Stuart asked regarding the mark of the beast. I know for a fact, biblically, that Jesus sacrifice on the cross covers all sin, past present and future. I cannot deny this, Just like I cannot deny that Jesus was divine and the trinity. Therefore, Iknow that the mark of the beast is not something Christians who are saved will have to choose. It also cannot be a “work”, as in sunday vs. saturday worship, because no work of man is capable of Justifying us. Therefore it must be Belief or denial of belief. I am sure it will be more “hideous” than that, but that will be what it “boils down” to.

            Now my belief in this concept also comes from understanding God, and how he has dealt with me in my personal life, as well as how he deals with humans in General. He is a merciful and loving God. then would he not show mercy to those who are “Children” of the faith, thereby protecting them from the trials of the tribulation. To put into modern terms, You are out on a boat in the middle of the ocean, It crashes into an iceberg, and there is only so much room on the lifeboats (sounds like Titanic.) Would you not, as a father, put your children on the life boat in your place? especially if your children were “young and had no chance of surviving on their own because they had not learned to “swim”?

            Again, When Revalation discusses the fifth seal, 6:11 says “…Until the NUMBER of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.”

            This verse is Chock full of information begging for a “guide”. As you believe, and I as well, the fifth seal is definately in the tribulation. (the first four seals are debatable but not the fifth). So who are these “fellow servants and their brothers”? What is the “number… which should be completed”? Obviously from the last statement they will make the ultimate sacrifice of being Killed as they (the apostles) had been. This tells me that they will not be “foolish virgins” as you have stated. It also implies two groups, “fellow servants and their brothers”. Who are they? I will let you answer that one.

            So that is some of the reasoning for my conclusions. It does not say anywhere in scripture that “you will be given a choice whether or not to be raptured”. But then again the word “Rapture” and “trinity” are not in the bible, But evidence for them is “all over” the Bible. My belief is that the “number” is more important than you might think.!

            God bless.

            • Hi Dru,

              Stuart and myself share the same ideology regarding OSAS. Neither of us believe that this philosophy is completely correct as in being a conclusive statement, or factual creed.
              Man has in the past, (through participation) had to maintain certain observances or responsibilities to fulfill their part in a Covenant that was in effect at a particular time, and I believe that this is true today as well.

              Today our responsibilities would consist of abiding in Yeshua so we do not wither, (John 15:6), fulfilling His commandment to love others as He has loved us, (John 13:34). Persevering in our faith to maintain our position of being Overcomers, (1 John 5:4) by allowing for the Spirit to lead us in our lives, (Romans 8:1 and 14). etc. etc.

              So I would agree with Stuart’s proposal above, that if one was once saved, yet chose to receive the mark of the beast, that according to what is written regarding that act in Revelation, (Rev.14:9-12.) they will “lose” that previous designation, choosing instead to save their lives rather than to die for their faith in Yeshua, (Matthew 10:39).

              Regarding the rest of your post, I thought that I had already expressed my opinion in respects to this (your theory) on the rapture page?
              You ask above, “and do not get on my case about this”. So I will respect that request and won’t, however I just have two questions for you regarding this. You say, “It has been revealed to me by the HS in my studies, when I asked for wisdom regarding certain scriptures.” Yet you also say beforehand, “I know that my position on the “who” of the rapture is a hard one to prove biblically.”

              So my point would be, if someone approached you with a theory, would you not go to the word of God to see if that theory lined up with Scripture? Secondly, would the the Holy Spirit actually reveal something to an individual that couldn’t be backed up by the word of God Scripturally?

              So, since your theory can not be confirmed within Scripture, but appears rather to be contrary to that of Scripture, to me personally, I can not accept it with good conscience as having any real merit.

              I will in closing though, leave you with some of my impressions regarding what you say above.

              I believe that why Yeshua did not bother to tell His disciples more than they could bear at that particular time about things that are to come, (that you quoted above in, John 16:12,13.) was simply because they required to be indwelt by the Spirit first, before they would have any real comprehension as to being able to understand.

              I believe that the Holy Spirit is the same entity as the Spirit of Truth.

              As I said above, I personally do not agree with the rest of your post according to Scripture, which is fine, for it is just my opinion, and who am I? We simply agree to disagree.

              Be Blessed

  40. alienated,
    Perhaps you could help me by shedding some light in regards to Luke 12:35-42 as this parable has perplexed me for quite some time and I have not seen much commentary on it. Though it is a parable and I realize that not every detail should be taken literally, the questions I have are:
    Why is the master (Jesus) returning from the wedding feast? If all the overcoming believers have been raptured already–why is Jesus coming back for more of his servants? Also Jesus tell them to keep watching as he may come during the 2nd or 3rd watch. Presumably the wedding in heaven has taken place and the celebratory festivities are now taking place so Jesus tells those true servants still on the earth to watch and be ready, lest he assign them a place with the unbelievers. This does not fit with either the pre or post trib views as Jesus comes back before or after the great tribulation. But according to this passage it appears that he may come back more than once? This tends to lead me to the theory of a partial or staged rapture. I think that Hudson Taylor and Watchman Nee were proponents of this view. Have you any thoughts on this?
    Tnanks for any input you may have.
    stuart

    • stuart
      My above post to alienated may help answer your questions. My thought, Much has been given to the “mature” Christians, and “much will be demanded of them.” It is what is “NOT” said, that is important.

    • Hi Stuart,

      Whew, that may sound like a simple question, but in answering it, (or at least in providing my opinion regarding it), depends upon how far we are apart in a couple of things.
      I will attempt to be as brief as I can in providing you a basic outline as to the future events as I see them, sans Scripture, (other than to provide references for you to be a Berean with) so as to not make this longer than necessary.

      I am definitely a “Pre-Tribulation” advocate.
      Other than verses such as Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, or 5:9,
      I can see no other logical explanation for Yeshua to say, (after speaking about the tribulation to come), “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to “escape all these things that will come to pass”, and to stand before the Son of Man.” if that possibility wasn’t the case. (Luke 21:36.)

      As well since the motivation behind the tribulation itself, appears to be for God to give the unbelieving world, (the sons of disobedience) one last ditch effort to acknowledge Him and His Son, and then to get rid of evil, what sense or justice would it make to subject those that have maintained their faith in Him, proven themselves worthy, (as He has asked us to pray to be) to be subjected to this tribulation as well?
      Nothing within the Jewish cultural wedding traditions says that you should beat up your bride first.

      It is my understanding that before Paul, the rapture itself was more or less a mystery that the other apostles knew little if anything about. Paul was informed of this event when he himself was “caught up” to heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:1-7., 2 Peter 3:14-16 Ecclesiastes 3:1.)
      Yeshua also spoke of this event during His ministry, in utilizing various parables to clarify the importance of maintaining relationship and obedience to Him to be considered worthy to participate within it.
      Within Matthew for example, in 24:36:44 He speaks of the timing of this event as to being one that nobody knows the day or the hour. Hence the need to maintain our faith on a daily minute by minute basis. (It must be noted however, that within Messianic perspectives this could be referring to one of the Fall Feasts, namely that of Yom Teru’ah (Feast of Trumpets). Though there is also speculation that it could possibly happen as well on Shavuot, (Pentecost).)
      Yeshua then goes into more detail within 45-51 with the parable of the “Faithful Servant and Evil Servant”, then even more specifically with 25:1-13, “The Ten Virgins”, and then again with 14-30, ” The Talents”, before jumping to the future where He has returned in His actual Second Coming, and is conducting the Sheep and Goat judgment, (which I believe is also the context of Luke 12:35-40. as in referring to either the remnant of Israel, or any and all of those that chose to accept the faith during that period of time.)

      Therefore it is my opinion, that much of what is spoken of in Matthew (and the Gospels) by Yeshua is in actually answering the question “specifically”, that was asked by His disciples in Matthew 24:3 regarding the end of “that” age, or His actual “Second Coming” 7 years after the rapture.
      The reason that I have placed the word “that” in quotations marks above, is because the “age of Grace” and the “New Covenant” was not in effect at the time that Yeshua answered those questions. The Mosaic Covenant was still in force.
      Yeshua was still under the Law, (Galatians 4:4.) The New Covenant was not in effect, (Hebrews 9:16-18) And the Church itself had not spiritually become an entity until Shavuot some 50 plus days later. (Acts 2:1-4.)

      This has also led me to believe that the word “elect” that is utilized in Matthew 24:22 and 24, is not representative to that of the “Church”, but rather that of “Israel” itself. (A clearer, more detailed explanation regarding that subject is posted on the “Rapture and the Church of Philadelphia” post here.)

      In respects to the 2nd and 3rd watch that He speaks about in verse 38, I believe that He is just eluding to the fact that we should remain diligent and ever watchful, since we do not know when it is specifically that He will come to fulfill this event, rather than it referring to more than one second coming. ( However, I do believe that there are numerous resurrections, the Church, the tribulation Saints and the 144,000 that all fall under the classification of what is called the `first resurrection” with Yeshua being the “first fruits” of.)

      I believe that He returns in the clouds to gather His bride, then returns with them to heaven for 7 years, (which incidentally coincides with a 7 day Jewish wedding celebration) Then the 144,000 are raptured up to heaven.
      He then returns in His second coming after the tribulation to establish His Millenial Kingdom, where then another resurrection will take place, for to rule and reign there is the necessity to have a glorified body, just as Yeshua has. The betrothed Church that was raptured previously, already has this. Therefore the tribulation Saints and the 144,000 must now also be resurrected, since all 3 of these groups are to rule and reign, or be kings and priests (sons of Zadok) on the earth.

      Far more information than what can be written here is located on the “Rapture and the Church of Philadelphia” post here. Both Don, ( a very knowledgeable brother) and myself have submitted a significant amount of information on it.

      Don’t know if this actually answered your question or not Stuart? I apologize if it didn’t. lol.

      Be Blessed

      Dru, I was just going to post this, and saw that you had posted a question too. (sigh) I quickly read over your question and I am not sure if I will be able to provide you with an answer that you may be looking for, (if that is, you are looking for one that affirms those beliefs.) However, I will express my opinion about it for you.
      Right now though, I have to get something to eat here. Perhaps tomorrow okay?

      As always, Be Blessed as well.

  41. JESUS plainly said: If you love ME keep my Commandments. Do that rather than trying to sneak into Heaven on fine print! I guarantee you you are expected to imitate JESUS as much as possible and love for JESUS is key. We will all mess up royaly but with love and true heartfelt repentance you are Guaranteed to get to Heaven. Do not just Isolate sentences, read the context. Your relationship with JESUS is so important. Salvation is no ticket to do what you want. You do not want JESUS to say to you in that day “I do not know you”

  42. Greetings alienated,
    Thanks for your response. I tend to lean in the opposite direction believing that we must go through all or at least part of the tribulation I know we are not destined for God’s wrath as you state, however Scripture also states that we are to expect tribulation in our lives…Jn 16:33, Acts 14:22, Rev 2:10 etc. As I understand it, the pretrib position embraces the idea of imminency or that Jesus could return at any time. We are told that his return is like a thief in the night which can happen at any time. However, when I examine the context of the thief passages, one such occurrence is in Rev 16 when the angel pours out the 5th bowl just before Armageddon. As you know this occurs toward the very end of the tribulation. What is also interesting to me is that the thief in the night is also referred to in 1 Thess 5 right after the “rapture” passage in Chapter 4. Therefore, taken in this context it appears that the rapture, day of the Lord, and the thief in the night are all associated as a single event which to me occurs toward the end of the tribulation. Any thoughts?

    • Hi Stuart, Greetings to you as well.

      This particular topic has been one of top of mind awareness for quite a period of time now in my studies.

      If I may, I have found that when most of us are conducting exegesis study, we tend as humans to take our native language and utilize our preconceived definitions of a particular word, and then associate, or correlate its relevance to each other time that word happens to appear again. Many will do this in what is referred to as “systematic theology” however, though this can at times be productive, it can also unfortunately lead us down wrong paths as well.

      For example you quoted John 16:33 and took the word that is translated into English as “tribulation”, and connected it theologically as being associated with the tribulation that is a part of God’s wrath.

      That actual translation there is derived from the transliterated Greek word “thlipsis” (Strong’s 2347) which has been translated into many different English words throughout scripture, depending upon context and its linguistic settings.

      The word “afflicted” in Matthew 24:9. KJV.
      The word “anguish” in John 16:21. KJV.
      The word “persecution” in Acts 11:19. KJV.
      And so on and so on.

      Therefore in taking into consideration the other potential possibilities, one must then analyze the context of the passage hermeneutically, as well. Where in my opinion, Yeshua was simply stating when speaking to His disciples (and us) at that time, that we will all experience many difficulties and trials in life, and that He was not referring specifically to the “tribulation of God’s wrath” at the time.

      This would also be my understanding of Acts 14:22., where Paul himself had just been recently stoned and left for dead, before returning to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch to encourage the disciples there.

      However in the case of Revelation 2:10, it could indeed be referring to the actual “tribulation” and it is interesting to note, that Yeshua is saying to some “believers” that unless they repent from their ways, this will be something that they will have to experience.

      (Please keep in mind though, all I can do is express my opinion regarding any question you may pose. All I ever offer to you or others is my perspective based upon my own interpretation.)

      Above you say, “As I understand it, the pretrib position embraces the idea of imminency or that Jesus could return at any time. We are told that his return is like a thief in the night which can happen at any time.”

      I agree with your statement above. Where as some would perhaps say things are contingent upon certain prerequisites, expressed in 2 Thessalonians 2: 3, I would argue that because of the further specificity provided within verses 7 and 8, that the gathering together unto Him, (or rapture), happens prior to the man of lawlessness being revealed. The rapture itself is in affect, the end of the “age of Grace”, and the catalyst for the beginning of the tribulation, and of the seals being opened.

      Here are some interesting nuggets that you may not be aware of, to take into consideration as well.
      Regarding the book of Revelation, the word “Church” in Greek is “Ekklesia” and the last time that this word is utilized in the whole of the book, (other than for a quick reference in Rev.22:16), is in Rev.3:22. From that point forward a distinction is made to now utilizing the word “Saints”, or “Hagios”.

      There is the necessity for something to occur to “effect change” within a definition for a specific word or phrase to then have new meaning. This simply can not happen arbitrarily within scripture.
      Just as Yeshua had to die before the New Covenant took effect. (Hebrews 9:16) something had to occur to effect change. So what do you suppose would be the change that would have the word “Ekklesia” disappear, and have it replaced with the word Saints, before Yeshua opens the 1st. seal?

      Another, though rather innocuous word, would be the word “door”.
      We see in Matthew 25:1-13 regarding the ten wise virgins and the ten foolish virgins that some were able to enter through the door and proceed to the wedding, and some found that the door was shut. (Matthew 25:10)
      Well the last time that the word “door” is ever utilized at all in the whole of the book of Revelation, is in verse 4:1, where John saw a door open in heaven, and heard a voice like a trumpet saying to him, “Come up here.”

      As well, another little tid-bit which leads me to believe that the Holy Spirit will return with the Church at the end of the Age of Grace, is Rev.5:6, where it is written that Yeshua (before He opens the Scroll of the seals), is there, “having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth.”
      This implies to me that those “seven Spirits” are with Him in heaven.
      If one researches 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 in depth they will discover something interesting.
      When counting the Spiritual gifts that Paul mentions, they will see that there are 9 in total.
      However, if one investigates them more thoroughly in the original Greek, they will discover the following;

      The first 2 gifts that Paul mentions are wisdom and knowledge, or “Sophia”, (Strong’s 4678), and “Gnosis”, (Strong’s 1108) respectively. Both refer to the wisdom or knowledge of “man”.

      The primary definition for Sophia is wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters, the wisdom which belongs to men.

      And Gnosis is far different that “Epignosis”. Gnosis is limited to man and his knowledge or intellect, where Epignosis is having a precise and correct knowledge of things that are ethical and Divine. The remaining 7 gifts that Paul mentions are those that are Divine in nature, bestowed upon a believer through only the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore there are (7) seven Spirits of God that correlate with (7) Spiritual gifts.

      Just some thoughts to ponder over.

      Be Blessed Stuart

  43. Hi Marianne,
    How are you. I have some things on my mind I have been thinking about and maybe you can help me find answers. My spouse left me of course before that he treated me really badly, did not sleep at home at least twice a week. We are no more together but I still hurt so much over everything he did and still continues to do. He barely calls his children and if he does its like he has better things to do. The contradictory thing is he goes to church and I just dont get it how he sees things or his thought process and how he understand salvation. He told me he knows he wronged me and I should forgive him. I have forgiven him but I hurt sooo much and I feel bad because sometimes I wish something will happen to him so he wakes up and realise you cant treat people this way and get away with it. He seems to get away with everything he does. He goes to church with his new woman and does not even call his children then he tells me how great God is and God is great, I just don’t understand why he gets away with everysingle thing. When we were together still he had a child outside the marraige and I did not know till recently. He lives a happy live and am suffering with my kids. I hate it when all this blaspheeming thought come to my mind when I hurt esp when he does not even try to spend time with his children and I see how much they hurt. How do I get ride of them. I never talk ugly to him, actually we barely talk. As a christian I just hate that I feel this way, and I dont understand why he seems to flourish and I’m sufferring when he was the one who wronged his family. Help me make a sense of this please and if there is any prayer I can pray against this feeling. Also pray for me for the safety of my children and myself. I’m going thru so much financially, and am also in nursing school so I feel over welmed right now I don’t have a lot of family and friends around me and I feel very alone.

    • hi Catherine

      He is not a Christian. He has never repented and mended his ways. He lives in a world of self justification and going to church makes him feel righteous.

      I just had someone cheat me out of $3000, and the guy goes to church. That is why works (like church attendance) do not save us, or self declarations.

      The reason it still bothers you is because his words do not match his actions.

      He is a sinner, a hypocrite living a lie.

      Both he and the woman are in adultery.

      You need to understand you cannot fix him. Only God can.

      In the meantime, find positive influences for your children, to compensate for his stupidity.

      Maybe families of the children’s’ playmates?

      Or connect online with some nice people. Look around the nursing school for other women with children. Maybe you can connect that way too.

      be blessed. You will be ok. I know it is hard. Hang in there. stay in touch here also.

      If he had truly repented, he would want to see his children, and he would respect you.

      He is just off with another woman who is as bad as he is, or she is deceived by his claims to be a christian.

  44. Hi Marianne,

    I asked above:

    “if person sells soul to the devil, is there any chance for repentance to such person?”

    You said, yes.

    There was some Pope in middle ages who sold his soul for becoming a pope, but later repented and fasted and prayed…

    But, it’s a bit complicated…

    The Soul, IN THE FIRST PLACE, doesn’t belong to us, The Soul belongs to God, and gives it to us ON CONDITION that we trust in him, follow him and walk in his shoes, if we don’t do that then after our physical death we die the second death (described in book of revelations), but if we obey Him then He gives it as a gift for eternity – not because we earned it, but as a gift!

    I guess, when someone sells his or her soul, the devil can claim it only at the moment of person’s death, or on Judgment Day, but not during person’s lifetime;

    This topic worries me, because I know that some of my friends at least flirt with dark forces and worship them, but I do not know if they sold their souls for good, hopefully not;

    I always irritate them, because they know that I want them to return to God, they think that I am arrogant, because i may not have went through the troubles as them that would make me to worship the devil in order to escape troubles in life and get comfort…

    I don’t know how to behave, it hurts me to think that that they would be lost forever and that after our physical deaths we could never meet, I love them and want them to be eternal by gaining eternity through trusting in Our Lord! But, on the other hand I fear that they too try to dose me to the other side, they may think that it is a “good intention” towards me…

    • Gavriel

      I know someone who sold his soul to the devil, and was actually possessed by a demon.

      The man would go dormant at times, and the demon would manifest.

      I kept telling him Jesus loved him.

      The demon was making him ill and his family was dying.

      Finally, he had the strength to reject Satan and all his works, and reject the demon possessing him.

      he is now a devoted christian.

      I know another man who was a “ruler” for satan, and considered himself satan’s child.

      he was also saved.

      So, I would say keep telling them Jesus loves them and that you are praying for them..

      This will irritate the demons, but it will plant a seed of faith in them that they will need later.

      • Amen to that Marianne,

        Although I am beleiver in Christ, I use for prayers, Hebrew traditional prayers, Old Testament prayers and Psalms, but not long ago I started praying from excerpts from New Testament (Jesus unity prayer from John, Paul’s prayers to saved ones and angelic praises from book of revelations), after that I went to streets in Tel Aviv and felt like a only human surrounded by bunch of zombies, everyone attacked me and several times shop sellsmen started throwing things at me with no reason….Jesus irritates people more than when God is addressed in abstract form, many in synagogue pray to God but their prayers may go to satan, but if one prays to Jesus there is no chance that prayer will go to the wrong place…

  45. To Marianne and alienated,
    Thanks Marianne for your response to Catherine. That’s why I hate the teaching of OSAS as taken to its logical extreme it promotes licentiousness. You never hear sermons anymore warning believers of the consequences of sin and living an unrepentant life. A couple of years ago a “Christian” named George Sodini committed several murders at a fitness center in Pennsylvania. Sodini attended a church that explicitly held to OSAS in their teachings. After the murders, a church member was interviewed and claimed that Sodini was in heaven.

    Thank you alienated for the clarification regarding the word “tribulation” as I had not taken the time to do a simple word study before citing those verses. There is indeed much to ponder when considering eschatology and it makes my head spin at times. Just a few comments in response to your post. Rather than take a dispensational view in explaining the transition from ekklesia to hagios, I have a simpler take on it. I tend to believe a qualitative change takes place as the church which consists of both wheat and tares moves through the tribulation and only those believers who persevere become “saints” as they overcome and wash their garments clean.
    “In comparison with other terms, ekklesia was relatively neutral and colorless, conveying by itself little theological meaning. It was open to use without basic shift in meaning, by unbelievers as well as by believers.” (Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 1, p. 607)
    “Ekklesia was used primarily to designate a particular communal reality, not to describe its qualitative aspects” (ibid.)
    Thus, ekklesia being a neutral term implies neither carnal nor spiritual–much like today’s church and also descriptive of most of the churches described in the first few chapters of Revelation where there is a mixture of carnality and the spiritual. However as the church goes through the tribulation, the extreme trials purify and refine the “called out” ones and consequently they truly do earn the label hagios or saints as they pass through the remainder of the tribulation. This may account for the transition in terms.

    Also, in reference to God’s wrath. I think the pertinent question is: What wrath are we referring to? If any church is “worthy” to be raptured, it is the Church at Philadelphia:
    “Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.” Rev 3:10
    What is the “hour of trial”? If we allow context to determine its meaning, we find that it’s meaning is revealed in the latter chapters of Revelation. In Rev 14:7 we find “the hour of his judgment has come.” The death of the world system, aka “Babylon the Great,” which stands in opposition to God, is described in Revelation 15-19. The doom of this Babylon comes “in one hour” (18:10). “In one hour” the world’s “great wealth” is “brought to ruin” (18:17, 19). God’s wrath takes place during the 7 fold series of bowl judgments. Again, a reference to “thief in the night” takes place in Rev 16:15 right before Armageddon. See in this context, we could very well go through all of the tribulation yet still preserved from the hour of God’s wrath which befalls the rest of the world.
    I think this scenario also fits very well with the parable of the ten virgins. Five of those took extra flasks of oil with them while the remaining 5 only had enough oil that was contained in their lamps. It could be fair to say that five of the virgins made preparations for the “long haul” while the other five were only prepared for a “short stay.” Whatever their perceptions and preparations, Jesus took so long in coming that they all fell asleep. If the rapture does not occur prior the the tribulation, or at least in the early stages of that period, I suspect that many people will begin to lose or abandon the faith as the persecution and testing becomes very severe. Believers will lose hope and fall asleep instead of maintaining their watch. Their oil will run out because they had not expected or been prepared for such a long haul. May it not be so with us. God help us.

  46. Gavriel asked, “if person sells soul to the devil, is there any chance for repentance to such person?’

    Marianne answered, ‘Yes, as long as he can still breathe, and repent in his heart, he can be delivered.’

    Since the topic of the post is Once Saved Always Saved, I would like to elaborate a little further on ‘Yes, s long as he can still breathe, and repent in his heart, he can be delivered.’ As Marianne eludes to in this post, there is, indeed, a point of no return with God. Some weeks ago, God put the subject in my heart and I did a post called, ‘Mark of the Beast: God’s Decision,’ at my website, internetelias.wordpress.com. The post discusses, from the biblical perspective, the point of no return….the place where repentance is no longer possible….the place where salvation is no longer offered by God. Remember when reading my post that it focuses solely on a point of no return and does not discuss the vast subject of Grace. Be reminded that it is only one little blip of insight about one little blip of truth….about the window of opportunity for repentance.

    • I guess the best response to this is that we are both right.

      there is a point of no return, but only God knows what it is.

      there is grace before that.

      Gavriel’s friends are playing with the dark side. I have known those who have actually gone beyond that , and actively served satan, and then were brought back by the grace of God.

      As mere humans, we cannot see what God does, so we should just continue to witness the love and mercy of God to all sinners, and leave the final decision to God.

  47. Marianne, I am in agreement with you. Sorry if I didn’t make it clear. I was only offering biblical support for the answer you gave ‘as long as he can still breath, and repent in his heart, he can be delivered’…..affirming that there is a place known only to God..when His spirit will no longer strive with a man.

  48. Don and Alienated and Al and Marianne
    I Know the conversations have been heated between us. And I know it is not my Job to make you agree with me as to the fate of mature Christians.

    I have found some scriptures with regard to the topic of Christians going through suffering, with regard to end times and would like your comments.

    It Also pertains to the topic at hand, for it shows that the death spoken of is Physical death. (verse13)

    At any rate the scripture is Romans 8:12-17. Verse seventeen in particular.

    Verses 18-30 then tie this to future events.

    Alienated you told me to read I corinthians 12, and I have with regard to the different manifestations of the spirit. If you have a Macarthur bible, look at his note regarding the spirit of utterances of knowledge. In particular the passages in Colossians That he refers you to. 1:26, 2:2, 4:3. They are all regarding the suffering which Paul was undergoing. I know you are bored with dealing with me as exemplified by your “sigh” in your one comment, but this is important.

    Don: Hopefully this will help you understand why my Spirit was so upset with the direction this post was going in. It is not about me being right, but about us getting it right. The great falling away will be precipitated by thoughts such as this post invoked. It was not you personally that I was upset with. I ask your forgiveness with regard to that last comment.

    Al: Our discussion on David pertains to this as well. If I am right, the “mystery” Paul is talking about, will be revealed with this line of thought. Your OT knowledge would be appreciated, especially with regard to the Mystery being spoken of in the prophets of Old.

    I think that instead of our Spirits working against each other, and instead we work together as “one body”, The Lord’s will will be done.

    Marianne: I know that what I have said at times is “controversial”, but you have never been one to shy away from it. If you would like, I believe this “theory” would make an eye opening post. I believe your post on “darts” also pertains to what the Holy spirit is guiding my studies towards, As this Suffering is beginning to take place as we speak. I believe that the great falling away is now beginning. I believe we will be persecuted by the “Goats” who will think that they are doing the Lord’s work.

    God bless.

    • dru

      A little lost here. so much has been said. Which theory are you referring to?

    • Hi Dru,

      Please stop taking everything so personal. The (sigh) that I posted above was because I was simply exhausted at the time. I was hungry and have also been dealing with new thyroid medication dosages that have lowered my cognative abilities significantly. So the (sigh) had far more to do with me, than having anything to do with you personally, or your post at all.

      I am in the process of trying to answer Stuart’s response at the moment, and I am currently finding that difficult to do. So Stuart, If I don’t happen to respond tonight, I will hopefully have a response for you tomorrow.

      And Dru that means that you will simply have to be patient okay?

      Be Blessed

      • I understand. The comment was intended in a jesting way. I did not take it personally.

      • I would like you on board, even if it is as the skeptic. I am not looking for an easy road on this one, as the implications are large.

  49. The one about who will be raptured. Are some Christians called to suffer in the tribulation, to be a testimony to the world? The one that alienated is always dismissing.

    • hi dru

      It is documented in the bible that Christians will suffer in the tribulation. The 5th seal mentions martyrs. Then there is the mark that, if refused, will bring death or persecution. It also mentions that the earth will rescue Israel (woman in Rev 12) when attacked by satan……who later turns on christians for helping Israel. So they are around.

      Question here : are all the christians here, or just some of them?

      As to why they are here to suffer? that is God’s sovereign decision.

      possibilities:
      rapture occurs at the 6th seal, which aligns with matt 24
      there is a pre-trib rapture, but many miss it

      maybe the defintion of WHEN the tribulation begins affects people’s views.

      Officially, it begins with the abomination of desolation, but this is not mentioned in the seals, trumpets or vials.

      Does it begin AFTER or before the 6th seal?

      • Marianne I know you are aware of alienated’s theory on the “ten virgins” Parable. His argument is that this limits the who of rapture to those that are “prepared”. This is a pre trib rapture. My argument is that when Jesus asks in Luke “will he find faith on earth at the endtimes?” he is refering to Individuals that will “Elect” to go into the tribulation to have their testimony be heard, and be a martyr for the faith. This is in line with Jesus’ new commandment which states that we are to love one another as Jesus has loved us. No greater love is there than one lay down his life for another.
        Now mind you, there is nowhere that it says in the Bible directly that Christians will be given this choice,(at least I haven’t found them yet), But those verses in Romans 8, that I quoted to jespana, make it Plausible. This I believe is the “Mystery” which was revealed to Paul by the Spirit of Truth. This I believe is the What the apostles “could not bear” until they received the HS. And this I believe is what is missing from the modern church interpretation of end time events.

        I believe that those of us who are “mature” in the faith will be the ones to make this choice, So as to “rescue” the Children of the faith, Much like a parent would put their children on a lifeboat in place of themselves. It is an act of Love, that can only be done with the assurance of salvation that those who have “walked” with the Spirit have.

        It is also the Opposite choice of the Mark of the beast, Giving those who are not saved, or even Israelites the “proof” that Jesus was the Messiah, giving them the ability to reject the Mark of the beast despite the abscence of the Holy Spirit.

        I can make my arguments from scripture for this, though like the rapture, no where is there direct mention of it.

        Now I could be proven totally wrong with regard to this, but I will not know until It is put out there for serious comment. Believe me, I would rather be raptured, but if the Lord requires us to make this sacrifice, I am prepared, and being prepared to make it.

        • Marianne
          What this “theory” does is make sense of the confusion regarding the fifth seal, pre-trib rapture and sixthseal rapture. It also “answers the question of why the Ac cannot reveal himself until after the fifth seal, for the Hs will no longer be on earth. In a sense, each of these theories has biblical support, this nullifies none of them.
          In other words yes there is a pre trib rapture, but the mature will “sacrifice their spots entering the tribulation. As Mature Christians they will know how to “Let the spirit talk through them” therefore will be able in front of the world to proclaim the Gospel. After their death, the unsaved then will be going through the mark of the beast, and those that reject the mark will be raptured at the sixth seal, leaving the nation of Israel to Go through the remainder of the tribulation. They will be the ones who will be saved from the attacks of the final battle of revalation.
          I know I am shooting from the hip here, but that is how my mind works. Its called brainstorming.

          • The tribulation starts with the abomination, which is not mentioned in the seals….very inconvenient……the 5th seal indicates a mass death, which could be due to not accepting the mark.

            jesus said he was coming back when the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood. This is the 6th seal…..

            Jesus is also seen in a later chapter with the 1440000. does this mean that this is the rapture time,, which seems to be after the 6th seal?

            confusing isn’t it?

        • I can see the rapture in the virgin parable.

          But when does this happen?

          there is nothing in the parable that says pre-trib, or post trib for that matter.

          Those who are ready, whenever the time is, will be taken.

  50. Marianne
    Here is my timeline to help you understand. The apostacy which is ongoing starts it all.
    1. Pre trib rapture at time of peace and safety. The dead in Christ rise, as do Children of the faith. Mature Christians will remain as a testimony of faith. this is the ten virgins rapture.
    2. War against israel psalm 83. Attack is thwarted by God, “rescue from afar”
    3. Covenent signed by Ac, is peace treaty with Israel. This marks the beginning of the 70th week.
    4. Satan turns his focus on Christians, those who hold the commandments of Jesus. This marks the beginning of the fifth seal. He will pursue those who remained, The mature in the faith.
    5. Those who remained will be beheaded, with the exception of the two witnesses. Only the dragon will be able to slay them.
    6. Two witnesses killed by the dragon. HS no longer present,
    7. AC is revealed, with abomination of desolation, and Mark of the beast introduced.
    8. Those who remain will be given the choice to not accept the mark, and not be able to buy and sell, or accept it, and be judged accordingly. Israel as a nation will refuse the Mark. Those who do not take the mark are basing their decision on the testimony of those who perished during the fifth seal.
    9. sixth seal, second Rapture, those who do not accept the mark, with the exception of the nation of Israel. The non-israelites who refused to accept the mark, will have their time cut short. The wrath is then poured out on the world At Jesus coming.
    10. Gog and magog war of ezekial 38, Marks final judgement.
    11. Millenial kingdom ushered in.

    * Note: The first four seals, I see as pre trib events. That does not mean that there will not be some manifestation, or continuance of them throughout the first half of the tribulation under the control of the concealed Ac.

    This is still a work in progress.

    • hi dru

      I would put the AC, the mark, the image all together. Rev 13, 14

      then war against the saints, who are overcome (rev13:7, 14:12)

      resulting in martyrdom 5th seal

      Why would any mature saint stay behind? What use is it, if there are 2 witnesses who do a better job?

      the virgins with the most oil go with Jesus ,not the other way around.

      consider these timelines also:

      https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/daniel-2300-vs-2520-days/

      https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/the-goat-and-the-2300-days/

      does this seem to help any?

      • Hi Stuart,

        I am sorry, but you will have to wait until tomorrow for my response to you. I am having difficulties in even being able to formulate a sentence here. Again my apologizes.

        Dru….. Just happened to read the above while I was here.
        Do you consider Paul to be a mature Christian?
        Have a read of Philippians 3, which states his desire regarding the resurrection.

        Be Blessed

  51. Really no need to apologize alienated–I often take time to study or think things over when responding myself.

  52. Thought on the Ten Virgins/Rapture/Return of Christ

    Darkness represents spiritual darkness in the earth. Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

    At midnight ‘Behold the bridegroom cometh…go ye out to meet him’ . (Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.).Midnight is the fullest moment of darkness (great tribulation…not wrath) before the starting of the new day). When the ‘cry’ (Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His path straight) , the five wise heard it with their spiritual Oil (ears to hear, eyes to see) and trimmed their lamps (cut away the burnt ends of the wisk so the oil could flow more freely to the end of the wick to allow the light to brighten). When the cry came forth…the darkness (evil)was heavy…time to ‘stand and having done all…to stand.’ They ‘stood’ in obedience of ‘go ye out to meet him.’

    Five Wise w/Oil: represents Light of the Holy Spirit present with the five wise who were prepared to meet the Bridegroom because they were children of the day (spiritual Light/ daughters of God/in the world but not of the world). They will endure the time of Jacob’s Trouble and overcome…because of the Oil. They will go with the Bridegroom and escape the Day of the Lord since they are not ‘appointed to wrath’ reserved for the ‘foolish’ virgins. The Five Wise virgins equate with the ones ‘taken’ in the following: Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    1th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 8But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,)

    Five Foolish Virgins: They are children of the night, of the darkness, who sleep sleep…and are about to be surprised by the Return of Christ…as a thief in the night…and are not prepared. They say Lord, Lord but deny the power (oil). They are spiritually deaf and blind, apostate, replicas, false virgins. They are harlots. Like Esau, they want the blessings but hate the birthright. They want what God has to offer but they do not want God. They have no need of oil as they sit in the darkness since their works are darkness. They are blind and do not need light since they do not see. Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    Just sayin……lol.

  53. Excuse please..one more thought on the Wise Virgins…they are the Church, Bride of Christ, both Jew and Gentile…one Body, those who ‘are of the faith of Abraham are Abraham. The time of Jacob’s Trouble (great tribulation) impacts all who live and breathe at that time’

    Foolish Virgins are the apostate church…a replica…a diversion…satan transfomring himself into an angel of light…in this case..a ‘foolish’ virgin..lol

    • hi internet elias

      So you are putting the virgins in Jacob’s trouble. I have sometimes thought the tribulation preceded Jacob’s trouble, which occurs under the wrath of God, and that they were 2 separate events, one following the other.

      to me they would go through tribulation, but not the wrath.

      Israel is protected during the wrath in the wilderness, and then is rescued later at Armageddon.

  54. Yes. I interpret scripture to mean Seals 1-6 are the dispensation of man or Age of Grace. Seventh Seal and its contents is all wrath. The five Wise Virgins are the Bride/Jacob/Israel (Jew and Gentile…all of the ‘faith of Abraham’). I glean from all scripture that the Church will be present in the world until gathered at the Second Coming in the clouds (same as His deciples saw him go at His ascention). The Oil/Light sustains the Wise Vrgins who are without spot or blemish. Their lamps make them the ‘city set on a hill that cannot be hid.’ And when they are gone, Rev. 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    • Internet Elias and All,

      I agree with much of what you say about the parable of the 10 Virgins. I will elaborate on what I understand to be true. First off, there are only two seeds. I know I have said this a lot but it bears repeating. You don’t overcome 2000 years of bad input without a lot of repetition. There is the seed of the serpent (HaSatan) and the seed of the woman (Yisrael). There is no third seed for the church. We are a part of the seed of the woman Yisrael, or we are of the seed of the serpent. Remember, the seed is the WORD! It is not physical seed. This has nothing to do with ethnicity. Yah has made that clear in His word. It is those who accept His word who becomes the seed of the woman. Those who reject His Word, or don’t act on it, are of the seed of the serpent. That is the beginning and end of this. We do not hold a special place above ethnic Yisrael in all of this. We are as remiss in this as they have been in the past. Even as ethnic Yisrael denied Mashiach, so we have denied His Commandments. By denying Mashiach, they have been under the curse of the law trying to justify themselves by following the commandments. But since Yisrael became a nation again in 1948 we have seen millions of ethnic Yisrael come to know their Mashiach, plus keep the commandments. You know them by the term of Messianics. Yet no one really ever says anything about this in all of these discussions. Why is that? But even they have a problem, because they don’t believe that we are part of Yisrael. They see us as pagan because of the holidays we have replaced the Feasts of Yah with, that we have replaced the Sabbath with SUN-day worship, that we not only don’t keep the commandments, we try to invalidate them and castigate those who do observe them. I know this raises the ire in everyone, but we hold the Messiah in unrighteousness. Righteousness basically meaning right doing. It is not a mystical term. It is very concrete and not abstract. We are saved, but saved to what? That is the question. In Matthew 25:12 Yahshua makes a statement to the unwise virgins:

      Matthew 25:11-13
      King James Version (KJV)

      11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
      12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
      13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

      Sounds an awful lot like Matthew 7:23-27

      Matthew 7:23-27
      King James Version (KJV)

      23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
      24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
      25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
      26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
      27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

      Both of these parables are about the same event, the judgment seat of Mashiach. We will all go through this before we go to any wedding feast. No one will go in an unworthy manner. Consider the scripture below:

      Matthew 22:2-14
      King James Version (KJV)

      2The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
      3And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
      4Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
      5But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
      6And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
      7But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
      8Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
      9Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
      10So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
      11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
      12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
      13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
      14For many are called, but few are chosen

      “A person who is called must choose to follow. To put the onus of being chosen solely on Mashiyach is false religion.” That is not my quote, but I could not have said it better. I will offer this about the verses above, the man was found wanting because he was not clothed in righteousness. You can break it down however you want. We have input into all of this. Salvation is of the blood of Messiah and He clothes us in His Righteousness (His right doing). But we will be judged on our righteousness (our right doing) as far as obeying the Commands of the Father (works). But to those who love Him and His instructions, we are not judged by the letter of the law, but rather made guiltless before Him, much in the way that David was. Those who reject the FULL counsel of Yah, will be judged accordingly. The bottom line is no one goes to the wedding feast without salvation and obedience to His Word. Salvation does not erase a rejection of Yah’s commandments. We are to study to show ourselves approved.

      I personally believe that the Oil is Ruach HaKodesh and the Light is his Commandments that light our path on how to walk in this sojourn, as is described many times in the Psalms. All of this breaks down the barrier between the OT and NT. They are all but parts of the same word. One didn’t stop and the other start. It is one Word. It is one covenant for believer’s in Yahshua.

      I do not see this as a theological or doctrinal debate. Too much is at stake here to just be winning or losing in a discussion. If we are foundationally lacking in our understanding of what is required of us, knowing the terms and timing about things of the end of days becomes worthless to us. Could we be getting the cart before the horse? I don’t think that anyone of us wants to be on the receiving end of any of the parables above.

  55. ashupert2, very well said.

  56. Greetings Stuart, and All.

    Thank you for your response Stuart. Again I am sorry that it took awhile to get back to you. I thank you for your patience.

    The proposal that you make most certainly deserves consideration.
    We must always be willing to hear with readiness, differing ideas, and then of course search Scripture to clarify the validity of what we have heard.
    As well as in utilizing Scripture, and the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we must also use sound reasoning as well in coming to any potential theory or conclusion.

    With that in mind, I ask that you please entertain the following.

    (1) Is what is commonly referred to theologically as the “rapture”, even a sound theoretical doctrine?

    (2) Is there sufficient Scriptural evidence to suggest, that a special group of individuals will be chosen to be a bride for the Lord, whether as a symbolic representation or not?

    (3) If so, are the two then interconnected in respects to being an “upward calling” of this chosen bride, to Himself for a celebratory purpose?

    (4) What then would be the timing of this event, and is there the possibility to escape from the tribulation to come?

    Regarding question, (1).
    “Is what is commonly referred to theologically as the “rapture”, even a sound theoretical doctrine?”

    The Greek word “Harpazo” (Strong’s 726) or “Rapture”, ( which is derived from the Latin Vulgate, “Rapiemur” which is the Latin translation for the Greek word Harpazo and is the first person plural future passive form of rapere, meaning to “carry off, seize, or drag away.” It’s perfect passive form is raptus from which we then derive the English terminology “rapture”), is utilized (13) times within the New Testament.

    The word is utilized in the following verses; Matthew 11:12., 13:19., John 6:15., 10:12., 10:28,29., Acts 8:39., 23:10., 2 Corinthians 12:2., 12:4., 1 Thessalonians 4:17., Jude 1:23., and Revelation 12:5.

    Out of these (13) utilizations the context in referring to it as being an act of being seized forcefully, in being caught up by the Spirit are only (5) times. These would be “Acts 8:39., 2 Corinthians 12:2., 12:4., 1 Thess. 4:17., and Revelation 12:5. (It is interesting to note at this point, that the utilization of the word in Revelation, (the only time that it is actually used within the whole of the book), has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church as either being Ekklesia or Saints, (Hagios).) Which then begs the question, if the Church is to be subjected to either a mid or full tribulation experience, why is there no mention of this event whatsoever occurring within the whole of the book?

    (As well, another thing to take into consideration is that the “Church or Ekklesia” is representative to that of a body, or assembly of believers. Whereas “Saints or Hagios” is more representative to that of individuals themselves. (So where is the assembly or body of the Church?)
    In respects to what you say above, “Rather than take a dispensational view in explaining the transition from ekklesia to hagios, I have a simpler take on it.
    I tend to believe a qualitative change takes place as the church which consists of both wheat and tares moves through the tribulation and only those believers who persevere become “saints” as they overcome and wash their garments clean.”
    Though only my opinion, my response to that would be, if that were correct, would not that theory then eliminate all believers from the very beginning up to the tribulation itself, in being able to obtain white garments?
    Does that theory line up with say, 1 Thess. 4:14b, ” even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus” and how that correlates with 1 Thess. 3:13., “so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ “with all His saints”?)

    Continuing from above;
    Out of the (5) times Harpazo is utilized in being seized forcefully, in being caught up by the Spirit in relation to the Church itself, it only has specific relevance (1) time. This would be in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

    “13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught (“up” or harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

    So the answer to question (1) would be “Yes”. Though there is obviously other Scriptural support available such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 etc. which would corroborate this same event, here is Scriptural evidence to confirm that a rapture takes place based upon the utilization of the word harpazo within the context of being “caught up”.

    Regarding question (2).
    “Is there sufficient Scriptural evidence to suggest, that a special group of individuals will be chosen to be a bride for the Lord, whether as a symbolic representation or not?”

    Well there is John 3:29 where John the Baptist say’s, “He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled.”
    As well there are the parables of the “Wedding Feast”, Matthew 22:2-14., and of the “Ten Virgins”, Matthew 25:1-13, and also Luke 12:36., 2 Corinthians 11:2., Revelation. 22:17., and this can also be substantiated as well in Rev. 19:7-9. where it is written that an actual “wedding ceremony” will take place in the future.

    So I would believe that either in the true, or symbolic sense, that the answer to question (2) would be “Yes” as well.

    Regarding question (3).
    “If so, are the two then interconnected in respects to being an “upward calling” of this chosen bride, to Himself for a celebratory purpose?”

    We know from Scripture that Paul has stated, that we should strive to be included within the group that is considered worthy enough to be Yeshua’s bride. In 2 Corinthians 11:2 he states, “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Within his and Timothy’s epistle to the Philippians, (chapter 3), he talks specifically regarding his desire to be included within the resurrection, (which would in keeping within context, also be referring to “until the day of Jesus Christ” stated in Philippians 1:6. as being associated to this resurrection. See 1 Corinth. 1:8., 2 Corinth. 1:14.,
    1 Thess. 5:2., 2 Timothy 4:8.)

    (“Side note” I will not go into to any specific detail here regarding this topic, but the phrase the “day of the Lord” appears to not be limited to one specific event (as we might associate the word “day”.)
    However I thought that I would mention, that it appears to be applicable in being utilized to express any and all significant and heavenly events to where God or Yeshua intervenes in some definitive way.)

    Paul says, “I press toward the mark for the prize of the “high calling” of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:14. KJV.

    The words “high calling” in quotation marks above, are open to a wide variety of interpretation within the original King James translation. In the original Greek, the words are “Ano” (Strong’s 507) and “Klesis” (Strong’s 2821) respectively.
    “Ano” within its primary definitions has the connotation of ” up, upwards, above, on high, of the quarters of the heaven”, rather than simply referring to “high” (which could be misunderstood, (amongst other possibilities), as to meaning a form of conduct, as expectation for the believer to demonstrate their faith.
    The definitions of the word “Klesis” means, “a calling, calling to, a call, invitation to a feast, of the divine invitation to embrace salvation of God.”
    Therefore within the New King James, its translation was more clearly defined as being more representative to the actual original meaning.

    “I press toward the goal for the prize of the “upward call” of God in Christ Jesus.” Philippians 3:14. NKJV.

    As stated above, the content of Philippians 3 is the resurrection and of Paul’s desire to attain it. I also don’t believe that it a far stretch at all to associate this resurrection with 1 Corinthians 15:50-55,1 Thess. 4:13-18, and
    2 Thess. 2:1-10, , etc. simply because of what is expressed within Philippians 3:20 which also speaks of the transformations of our bodies.) Clearly they are referring to the same event.

    So I believe that it is safe to say, that the answer to question (3) is also “Yes”. The “upward calling” of this chosen bride, to Himself, and the resurrection of which he speaks about here and elsewhere are all regarding this one specific event.

    Addressing question (4).
    “What then would be the timing of this event, and is there the possibility to escape from the tribulation to come?”

    In doing this, lets first look at the word “salvation”. The English word “salvation” is translated as such from the transliterated Greek word “Soteria” (Strong’s 4991). However like so many other examples, it has also been translated into many different English words throughout scripture, depending upon context and its linguistic settings.
    For example in the KJV, in Luke 1:71. as “saved”. In Acts 7:25 it is conjoined with “didomi” (Strong’s 1325) to create “delivered”. In Acts 27:34 as “saved”, and in Hebrews 11:7 as in “saving”. As well, since some the definitions of Soteria are comprised of the following, ” deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation , deliverance from the molestation of enemies” not every time it is translated into English as “salvation” does it necessarily mean specifically that it is referring to the eternal saving of ones spirit/ soul.

    With that in mind, lets look at 1 Thessalonians 5:1- 11.NKJV, where Paul addresses “the times and the seasons”, which if understood within its correct context is referring to, and regarding this event we call the rapture.

    “1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

    (1 and 2) This appears to suggest that during their face to face conversations with Paul, (and perhaps Silvanus and Timothy), that the Thessalonians understood that this event would occur at a future unknown time.)

    3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

    (Paul makes a distinction now between the Thessalonians, (or believers) and those who are not. Those who are not will say, “Peace and safety” implying that a peace treaty, or covenant may have been signed, ( Daniel 9:27.)
    Then sudden destruction comes upon “them”, and “they” shall not escape.)

    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

    ( 4 and 5) Again a distinction is made, where the opposite is stated. Being sons of light and sons of day, we are not in darkness so that this Day will not overtake us as a thief. Neither then will sudden destruction come upon us, for those that Paul speaks of, will escape.)

    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

    8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

    (6,7 and 8) Paul is telling us to remain alert and to be expecting this day at any time, and to continue to maintain our faith and demonstration of love for others to ensure the hope of our salvation.)

    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

    (Now…. here is one of those instances where the word “Soteria” which has been translated in verse (9) above as
    “salvation” could have possibly been translated differently?
    Salvation above could have been perhaps translated as “deliverance” or “saving” through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    Which would then allow us to receive a better and more conclusive understanding as to when this event actually takes place. However, within this verses context, I believe that even though salvation is utilized, the inference is plainly understood.
    I also do not believe that this is not merely speculation on my part either. For if we look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10. the word that is translated as saved, is the Greek word “Sozo” (Strong’s 4982) its definitions are as follows;
    “to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction, one (from injury or peril), to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health, to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue. to save in the technical biblical sense, to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment, to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance.”

    The last sentence of verses 9 and 10 of 2 Thess. 2, clearly describes that the coming of the lawless one is the workings of satan with powers,signs, lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those that perish.
    Those that did not receive the love of the truth. Therefore the definitions above for the word “sozo” would not apply to them. However logically then, if that is the prerequisite, they do apply for those that have received the love of the truth. Perhaps 2 Thess. 2:13,14. should now take on new meaning for some?)

    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing. it.

    (Why would anybody comfort each other if they were to expect to be subjected to sudden destruction like those that are in darkness?)

    “18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.” Romans 1:18,19. NKJV.

    However we on the other hand….

    “Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” Rom. 5:9.

    “and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.” 1 Thessalonians 1:10.

    “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,” 1 Thessalonians 5:9.

    And again, why when Yeshua spoke throughout the whole chapter of Luke 21 regarding the tribulation would he bother to say; “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:36), if there wasn’t the opportunity to somehow do so?

    I will close for now by including an excerpt from my “Ten Virgins” study which is relevant to this particular topic as well. It has been updated with more information than what was initially posted on the rapture page itself, so it is worth while for those who are interested to read it again.

    To all, Be Blessed in Yeshua.

    An interpretation to the meaning of the Ten Virgins parable recorded in Matthew 25:1-13.

    First I would like you to have an understanding of what the actual Jewish cultural aspects are, to what we would refer to today as the engagement period and subsequent marriage ceremony. You may find that some of the definitions of the Hebrew to be rather intriguing, in that they can be also have a spiritual application. As well it is interesting to note that a time period of (7) seven days, or one week is put aside to celebrate the wedding itself.

    The Process of Marriage: Kiddushin and Nisuin;

    The process of marriage occurs in two distinct stages: kiddushin (commonly translated as betrothal) and nisuin (full-fledged marriage). In the past, the kiddushin and nisuin would routinely occur as much as a year apart. Kiddushin occurs when the woman accepts the money, contract, or sexual relations offered by the prospective husband. The word “kiddushin” comes from the root Qof-Dalet-Shin, meaning “sanctified.” It reflects the sanctity of the marital relation. However, the root word also connotes something that is set aside for a specific (sacred) purpose, and the ritual of kiddushin sets aside the woman to be the wife of a particular man and no other.
    Kiddushin is far more binding than an engagement as we understand the term in modern English. Once kiddushin is complete, the woman is legally the wife of the man. The relationship created by kiddushin can only be dissolved by death or divorce. However, the spouses do not live together at the time of the kiddushin, and the mutual obligations created by the marital relationship do not take effect until the nisuin is complete. During the wedding ceremony itself (7) seven special blessings are read. This is called Sheva B’rachot, The Seven Blessings.

    The nisuin (from a word meaning “elevation”) completes the process of marriage. The husband brings the wife into his home and they begin their married life together.

    In contrast to a non-Jewish custom, in which the bride and groom take off to some exotic honeymoon location, Jewish custom dictates that the couple begin their new life together in their community.This also confirms what Yeshua said in John 14:1-3.

    For “seven consecutive evenings” following the wedding, it is customary that friends or relatives host festive meals in their honor. The act of feasting recalls the “seven-day celebration” after the marriage of Jacob to Leah, while spending their days in prayer, learning Torah and performing mitzvos in order to give the “new house in Israel” a solid foundation in God’s ways of holiness.(Genesis 29;27) During this “seven-day celebration” and the tradition to throw dinner parties for the new couple each night during the week following the wedding, at the end of each of these meals, after Birkat Hamazon (Grace After Meals), Sheva B’rachot are also recited. In fact, these meals themselves are popularly referred to as Sheva B’rachot after the special wedding blessings recited at their end.

    The Seven Blessings – Transliterated and Translated:

    Baruch Ata HaShem Elokainu Melech HaOlam, SheHakol Barah Lichvodo
    Blessed are You, Adonoy, our God, King of the universe, Who has created everything for His glory.
    Baruch Ata HaShem Elokainu Melech HaOlam, Yotzer Ha’Adam
    Blessed are You, Adonoy, our God, King of the universe, Who fashioned the Man.
    Baruch Ata HaShem Elokainu Melech HaOlam, Asher Yatzar Et Ha’Adam Betzalmo, b’Tzelem Dmut Tavnito, VeHitkon Lo Mimenu Binyan Adei Ad. Baruch Ata HaShem Yotzer Ha’Adam
    Blessed are You, Adonoy, our God, King of the universe, Who fashioned the Man in His image, in the image of his likeness and prepared for him from himself a building for eternity. Blessed are You Adonoy, Who fashioned the Man.
    Sos Tasis VeTagel HaAkarah, BeKibbutz Bane’ha Letocha BeSimchaa. Baruch Ata HaShem, Mesame’ach Tzion BeVaneha
    Bring intense joy and exultation to the barren one through the ingathering of her children amidst her in gladness. Blessed are You, Adonoy, Who gladdens Zion through her children.
    Sameach TeSamach Re’im Ahuvim, KeSamechacha Yetzircha BeGan Eden MiKedem. Baruch Ata HaShem, MeSame’ach Chatan VeKalah
    Gladden the beloved companions as You gladdened Your creature in the garden of Eden from aforetime. Blessed are You, Adonoy, Who gladdens groom and bride.
    Baruch Ata HaShem Elokainu Melech HaOlam, Asher Barah Sasson VeSimcha, Chatan VeKalah, Gila Rina, Ditza VeChedva, Ahava VeAchava, VeShalom VeRe’ut. MeHera HaShem Elokeinu Yishama BeArei Yehudah U’Vchutzot Yerushalayim, Kol Sasson V’eKol Simcha, Kol Chatan V’eKol Kalah, Kol Mitzhalot Chatanim MeChupatam, U’Nearim Mimishte Neginatam. Baruch Ata HaShem MeSame’ach Chatan Im Hakalah.
    Blessed are You, Adonoy, our God, King of the universe, Who created joy and gladness, groom and bride, mirth, glad song, pleasure, delight, love, brotherhood, peace, and companionship. Adonoy, our God, let there soon be heard in the cities of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem the sound of joy and the sound of gladness, the voice of the groom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the grooms’ jubilance from their canopies and of the youths from their song-filled feasts. Blessed are You Who gladdens the groom with the bride.
    Baruch Ata HaShem Elokainu Melech HaOlam, Boreh Pri HaGafen.
    You are blessed, Lord our G-d, the sovereign of the world, creator of the fruit of the vine.

    Why Ten Virgins?

    The number 10 was not just an arbitrary figure that Yeshua happened to pull out of the blue either.

    But it appears to be a significant number Biblically.

    – God would spare the city for 10 righteous. (Genesis 18:32)
    – 10 camels were loaded with gifts for Rebekah. (Genesis 24:10)
    – Rebekah stayed 10 days before leaving. (Genesis 24:55)
    – Joseph had 10 brothers that went to Egypt to buy corn. (Genesis 42:3)
    – The Tabernacle had 10 curtains. (Exodus 26:1)
    – God gave Moses the 10 Comandments. (Deuteronomy 4:13)
    – Boaz had 10 witnesses at his marriage to Ruth. (Ruth 4:2)
    – Solomon had 10 lavers for water made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:6)
    – Solomon also had 10 golden candlesticks made for the Temple. (2 Chronicles 4:7)
    – Solomon also had 10 tables made as well. (2 Chronicles 4:8)

    Then there are also the 10 days of Awe that fall between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, and the 10 lost tribes.
    Jewish tradition also believes that there are only ten true Songs in the history of the world. These true Songs are not mere melodies, but they are expressions of the harmony of creation and mark monumental transitions in history.
    Interestingly in Jewish tradition, the Tenth Song has not yet been sung yet: it is the Song of the coming of the Mashiach, which will be sung at the End of Days (see Isaiah 26:1).
    As well, there is the “Minyan” the quorum necessary to recite certain prayers, consisting of ten adult Jewish men required to establish a synagogue. And I am sure that there is more out there.
    This is simply to verify, that apparently with God, the number 10 holds significant meaning.

    The parable itself.

    In my opinion from conducting this study, there is no doubt in my mind that Matthew 25:1-13. is an accurate description of what is commonly referred to theologically, as the “rapture”.
    Scriptural references that have been written that do more than imply that, “Spirit filled believers”, are indeed the “bride” of Yeshua.
    These references can be found in the parable of Matthew 22:2-14., verses Luke 12:36., John 3:29., 2 Corinthians 11:2., Rev. 22:17., and can be substantiated in Rev. 19:7-9. where it is written that an actual “wedding ceremony” will take place in the future. And this parable, in my opinion, is definitely a description of the choosing of “who” the partakers of that event will be.

    Since these verses also describe some form of distinction between these two particular groups of believers, of which some will be considered to be worthy to be His bride, whereas others apparently will not, (Just as a man would not simply marry a woman because she is a woman, or a woman wouldn’t simply marry a man because he is a man), therefore Yeshua is looking for unique, or prerequisite attributes as well. The following is an effort in an attempt to understand, what those particular distinctions and attributes consist of, and who specifically it is that Yeshua was referring to within the parable itself. (ie;) Who are the two separate groups of five wise, and five foolish?

    But, before I explain in my opinion as to what those distinctions are, lets first look at the verses and see what “they” the Ten Virgins had in common.

    “1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    (It is at this point here, that there is a break. It is in sense a third conditional form. The previous narrative tells of all the virgins going forth with their lamps to meet the Bridegroom and that the wise of them, took oil in the vessels of their lamps, as opposed to the foolish who did not. The following verses describe what took place prior to this happening, and if read in context, the foolish not only did not have “enough” oil, but also arrived late.)

    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” KJV.

    Before going further, I think that something very significant needs to be clarified first. That is the Greek definitions of the word “know” that Yeshua uses in verse 12. It is translated from the transliterated word “eidō” (Strong’s # 1492) and its definition is exactly what you would think that it means. “Verily I say unto you, I do not “perceive with the eyes, perceive by any of the senses”, You.”

    This would be a horribly devastating thing to hear from the Lord. That is why He said “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.” Luke 21:36 KJV.

    So what was it that these virgins had in common?

    (1) They all were virgins. Now right away that would eliminate a whole bunch of us. lol. Fortunately that doesn’t refer to our sexual experience at all, but rather to their/our purity of heart, or put another way, our desire to maintain Divine relationship.
    They are chaste, and have maintained their commitment to their bridegroom, not allowing for anything to deviate them from their faith. (see 2 Corinthians 11:2.)
    This can be substantiated in both the Old and New Testaments.
    See Genesis 24:16 and Revelation 14:4. Additional specificity is written, about the word “virgin” to clarify and ensure that what is expressed is understood correctly. Notice that Yeshua did not add at all to this definition.

    (2) They all had lamps. These would have been hand held lamps made out of pottery clay that someone could carry with them. The Hebrew transliteration would be “Niyr” and they would have had a wick (pishtah) as well as an area to contain the olive oil to burn. These lamps can be considered to be a symbolic reference to the Holy Spirit being indwelt within the believer. Ones light can only shine if the Holy Spirit, (or oil) is present and available to utilize. (see (3) below.)

    (3) They all had oil. This can be asscociated with the above point (2) and is a very significant point as well, for the “oil” is considered and has been established by every biblical scholar of note, to represent the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
    See Exodus 29:7, 29:21. Exodus 30:25,26,31. Exodus 40:9, 1 Samuel 16:12,13. 2 Kings 9:3. for just a few examples out of the numerous others included in the Tanakh. However, notice that in verse (3) it states that the foolish, “took no oil with them”, and in verse (8) that the foolish had run out of oil, and their lamps had gone out, “Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.”

    Though one of the shortest verses in the Bible, “Quench not the Spirit.” (1 Thessalonians 5:19), it should be considered very carefully by all professing Christians. The light of a lamp can only burn with fire. “And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.” Acts 2:3. “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” Matthew 3:11/ Luke 3:16.

    The word “Quench” above that Paul utilizes in that verse, is the word “Sbennumi” in Greek, (Strong’s # 4570), and it’s definitions are, “to extinguish, quench of fire, or things on fire, to be quenched, to go out. metaph. to quench, to suppress, “stifle of divine influence.”
    Therefore it would not be unreasonable to say, that though one may have the Holy Spirit residing in them, the state of His “fire” is determined by the actions of surrendering to Him by the will of the host or recipient.

    (4) All had been waiting. Since the “the bridegroom tarried” it would be logical to assume, that while they were waiting for His return, they all carried on with life. Just as in the day’s of Noah, they and we are, “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage”, before he escaped from the flood in the Ark.

    (5) All had slumbered and slept. “Nystazō”, (Strong’s # 3573) and “katheudō”, (Strong’s # 2518) respectively, both refer to the act of physical sleep, however, within the definitions of “katheudō”, it is noted to also refer to, “be indifferent to one’s salvation”.

    (6) They all heard the cry. Which in my opinion, the “cry” that is heard in verse 6 is referring to “the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:” that is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, and is referenced in 1 Corinthians 15:52. as well.
    Incidentally, that phrase “the trump of God” is used nowhere else in the entire Bible. It is specifically reserved for this rapture event.

    It is translated into English from the transliterated Greek words, “salpigx (trumpet) Strong’s # 4536 and Theos (God) Strong’s # 2316”, rather than that of “a great sound of a trumpet” that is recorded in verse 31 of Matthew 24. Which are translated into English from the transliterated Greek, “megas (great) Strong’s # 3173, phone (sound) Strong’s # 5456, and salpigx (trumpet) Strong’s # 4536.” This in my opinion, since there is a distinction between the two, is signifying that they are two different and separate events.
    One being the rapture, and the other being the Second Coming “after” the tribulation of those days.
    I believe that this could be substantiated as well with the following verse, “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:” 2 Timothy 4:1. The verse appears to suggest that there will be “two” judgments that will take place, (though in scripture there are (7) that are specifically mentioned in total) One at His appearing, (possibly during this rapture), and one when His Kingdom is established.

    (7) They all heard this call at midnight. The English word “midnight” which is utilized (6) times within the New Testament has been translated as such, from either one of two transliterated Greek words. These would be “Mesonuktion” (Strong’s 3317) which in its definition means simply “midnight” and is used in Mark 13:35., Luke 11:5., Acts 16:25., and 20:7.
    The other word is “Nux” (Strong’s 3571) and is only translated as the word midnight twice, when conjoined with the Greek word “Mesos” (Strong’s 3319) in the parable above, Matthew 25:6., and in Acts 27:27., where Paul had the vision from the angel telling him that all aboard the ship would be saved. The definition for Nux is as follows; “night, (metaph.), the time when work ceases, the time of death, the time for deeds of sin and shame, the time of moral stupidity and darkness, the time when the weary and also the drunken give themselves up to slumber.”

    (8) They all made it to the Door. The five wise entered through it and went in with the Bridegroom to take their part in the marriage, where the five foolish found that it was shut. There are many references made within scripture regarding the word “door”. Therefore, I suspect that many in the past, when studying this particular parable, have because of it’s innocuousness, simply chosen to disregard it. However, I personally believe that to conduct proper hermeneutics, critical exegesis must be utilized.
    In doing so, I was rather amazed in finding out what the word “door” revealed.
    Though in Greek there are many words that can be translated into the word door, the word for “door” that is utilized in Matthew 25:6. above is “Thura” (Strong’s 2374), the significance of this word can be found within its definitions, which are as follows; “a door, the vestibule, used of any opening like a door, an entrance, way or passage into. “in a parable or metaphor, the door through which sheep go in and out, the name of him who brings salvation to those who follow his guidance, “an open door” is used of the opportunity of doing something, the door of the kingdom of heaven (likened to a palace) denotes the conditions which must be complied with in order to be received into the kingdom of God.”

    What is interesting to note is where and when this “door” (Thura) appears in the book of Revelation. It is utilized only (3) times.

    “I know thy works: behold , I have set before thee an “open door”, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.” Revelation 3:8. KJV.

    “Behold , I stand at the “door”, and knock : if any man hear my voice, and open the “door”, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” Revelation 3:20. KJV.

    “After this I looked , and, behold , a “door was opened in heaven”: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said , “Come up hither”, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” Revelation 4:1 KJV.

    Perhaps the following example was prophetic in nature, when God was speaking to Cain and said, “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.” Genesis 4:7a.)

    (I believe that what Paul says in Romans 2 as well as much of what is written in scripture, has relevance to this particular parable as well.)

    What was initially considered to be the correct explanation to this parable was, “that the “five foolish” were professing Christians without any Spiritual experience with God, and the “five wise” were possessing Christians, who have confessed and professed, and possessed Salvation.” Proverbs 22:3 regarding the “wise” and the “foolish”, would appear to support this theory, “A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” So this theory was accepted for a time to be a credible explanation, until some questions were proposed.

    The questions that arose had to do with the “oil”. How if all the virgins had “oil” were only five accepted?
    Is not the Holy Spirit the seal of promise as it is written in, “Acts 2:33 and Ephesians 1:13”?
    In taking these questions into account, another study was conducted, where the next group of scholars concentrated on the significance of the “lamps, the light and the oil”. Where upon the following was then concluded as to being the correct explanation. It was determined that it is “five that have the Holy Spirit working in their lives”, and “five who do not.”

    This theory was derived in part by utilizing the following scripture, “The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.” Proverbs 20:27 (Note, the word that is translated as “candle” here is the Hebrew “Niyr” again, and so it could have very easily been translated as “lamp”.) and “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39.
    So the premise of this theory is, “that the spirit of a man is the candle, or lamp of the Lord, searching the inner most part of the belly, and that the Holy Spirit works out from the inner most part of a man, therefore the image that this represents then, is one that, “the lamp, the oil, and the light” are the Holy Spirit working in and through an individual.

    And if I may elaborate in how this was phrased, “the lamp is the vessel itself, (or individual), which contains the “oil” that represents the Holy Spirit, and the light, (or fire) that is manifest, can only be achieved within mutual participation. In other words, those that have accepted Yeshua as their Lord and Savior do indeed possess the Holy Spirit. However, it is only those that surrender and through the act of participation, in not quenching the Spirit and in allowing for the process of Sanctification to take place, that the resulting “fire” can be attained.

    There is clearly a distinguishable difference between those of us that try to the best of our ability, to abide in Yeshua constantly as opposed to those who merely profess to being Christian. And I believe that if you have read all that I have written above regarding what it was that these virgins had in common, the definitions applicable to specific words, and the scripture verses I have provided, you will see that this difference between those of us who abide, as opposed to those who are more carnal in their walk, are what will be the deciding factor between who will be taken or not, (resurrected or changed) and be considered worthy enough to be Yeshua’s bride.
    I also believe that this will conform to Jewish wedding traditions and will happen pre-tribulation so that the celebratory week can be fulfilled.

    Be Blessed.

    • Man (sigh) I can’t stand what wordpress has done here with the recent changes they have made. lol.
      I copied and pasted what I had taken the time to write and you can’t adjust the format whatsoever without it “blinking” all over the place, and now for whatever reason…. I have a stupid happy face in the middle of the post. lol

      I didn’t put no happy face there???? Oh well, heavy sigh.

      Be Blessed

  57. To all
    ” 7. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, 8. which is LAVISHED upon us, in all WISDOM and INSIGHT 9. making KNOWN to us the MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, According to His PURPOSE, which he SET FORTH in Christ 10. as a plan for the FULLNESS OF TIME, TO UNITE ALL THINGS IN HIM, things in HEAVEN and things on earth….12. So that we who were the first to HOPE in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.13. In him you also , when you heard the word of truth, The Gospel of your salvation, and believed IN HIM, WERE SEALED with the promise of the HOLY SPIRIT, 14.who is the GURANTEE of our inheritence until WE acquire possesstion of it, to the praise of HIS glory.” (Eph 1:7-14)

    3:3-8 “How the Mystery was made known to me by revalation, as I have written briefly. 4. When you Read this, You can perceive my insight into the Mystery of Christ, 5. which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. 8. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, MEMBERS OF THE SAME BODY, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel.”

    3:10 ” So that through the CHURCH the manifold WISDOM OF GOD might be made known to the RULERS AND AUTHORITIES IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES.” …verse 13 “So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am SUFFERING FOR YOU, which is your glory.”

    4:13 “until we ALL attain to the UNITY of the Faith and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, TO MATURE MANHOOD, to the MEASURE OF THE STATURE OF CHRIST,”

    5:1″Therefore, be immitators of God, as BELOVED CHILDREN. 2. and WALK IN LOVE as Christ Loved us and GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR US, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

    6:12 “for we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present Darkness, against THE SPIRITUAL FORCES OF EVIL IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES.”

    Matthew 5:11-12 ” Blessed are you when others REVILE YOU and PERSECUTE YOU and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12. REJOICE and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they PERSECUTED THE PROPHETS who were before you.”

    44 “But I say to you, Love your enemies and PRAY FOR THOSE WHO PERSECUTE YOU, 45. so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven…”

    See the verses that Al quoted. Matt. 7:24-27

    Matt. 8:8 ” But the centurion replied, ‘Lord I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9. for I too am aman of authority, with soldiars under me. and I say to one , Go and he Goes….’10. When Jesus heard this he Marveled and said to those who followed him, ‘Truly I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. 11. I tell you, Many will come from east and west and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Kingdom of heaven, 12. While the sons of the Kingdom (Israel) will be thrown into the outer darkness…”

    Matt. 10:24-25 Regarding the persecution the apostles would face.
    “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25. It is enough for the disciple TO BE LIKE THE TEACHER, and the servant his master. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub (See 9:34), How much more will they malign those of his household.” 28. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul, Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
    Also verses 32-33 pertain to what will be faced

  58. Part 2
    I have purposely quoted only scripture to make my point. Now take the time to read Mathew 24:9-14 again, as well as revalation 6:9-11, 12:17, In the light of Jesus’ New commandment found in John 15:12-17 and what Paul revealed in Romans 8:17. I know this is a mouthful, But to say that the Christians which will be bearing witness during the fifth seal are those who did not pass the test of the “ten Virgins” is ludicrous. This begs the question, “who then are they?”

    Alienated, this is the question I pose to you in particular, as you are a pre-trib proponent, and that those who have the HS will be taken at that time.
    I can find two hundred other verses indirectly pointing to this. That those chosen, are called to go through the tribulation and be persecuted. This is the narrow Way. The bible makes mention of many different “rewards” for our faith, not just being raptured. We are called to rejoice when faced with persecution, not to try to avert it. It is a divine opportunity, and not a plague.

    Marianne: Regarding the rapture taking place mid trib or there after, I posed the Question to you of a parent putting their children on a life boat. How much more does the Heavenly father love his children, and deem them worthy to be rescued from tribulation? (pre trib)
    I am in total agreement with you on the mid trib rapture, and the fact that the tribulation is divided into trial and wrath phases.
    Also regarding your darts page, the quote from ephesians 6, shows that who we are fighting against are spiritual forces, hence the armor.

    Alienated in response to your Philippians 3 question, Paul considered himself “least among the apostles”. The verse you refer to is verse 10, “that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may SHARE his sufferings, becoming like HIM IN DEATH.” He is saying what he says in verse 11 knowing that his death is imminent. In acts 20: 22-23 he Goes to jerusalem, knowing by the Spirit that he will be imprisoned… This to me is a mature faith, that listens and walks by what the Spirit tells him. whether he viewed himself as that, I do not know.

    Al: You will see in the verses from Ephesians that I am in agreement with you on the Two seeds, and Paul implores us to see the unity we share with those who are Jewish. As you know, I am also in agreement with you regarding the commandments of the OT, but I ask you to look at Jesus “New commandment” as the fulfillment of all of the ten. This goes far beyond the ten commandments. Because in this is to “love your enemies”, forgiveness of those who persecute you, and sacrificing our lives for those who are “needy”, and not worthy. I also put the centurions faith in as a guide as to what faith is all about, and how our belief is to be manifested.

    To all: This is not a trivial argument about a timeline for revalation. This i believe is the (pardon the pun) crux of the warnings for endtimes. Many mysteries were revealed to Paul by the Spirit of Truth, and can be found in all his epistles If you do a search in your concordance on mystery. The rapture is one of them, one of many. The tie in with the sacrifice and persecution which the prophets from the old testament faced as a foreshadow of things to come is another. This is what it will mean for us in this generation to “take up our cross and follow him”. I am not saying this because I have something to gain by this, Only to hopefully answer Jesus question regarding end times, namely “will he find faith on earth?”

    Bickering about who will sit in first class on the trip to heaven is not what being a Christian is about. This is what this once saved always saved post amounts to. God will answer those questions, and Judge the sheep and the Goats. If someone is truly born again, they are always saved. We ALL sin, and fall short of the glory of God. One mans sin is adultery, while others fall victim to pride, what matters is that we are all being sanctified by the Spirit, and perhaps someday be able to “love one another as Christ loved us”.

    • hi dru

      Many times we start to discuss the rapture without addressing the events in revelation.

      to me , again, the tribulation is seals 1-6….and then the wrath ( trumpets, vials)….

      with this definition, I am “post trib” – pre wrath

      so I am guessing the first 6 seals take 7 years total.

      maybe the first 3 1/2 years is seals 1-4…..and the second half is seals 5-6….

      • My opinion for what it is worth, Matt 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death…” this is clearly before the abomination that causes desolation is spoken of in Matthew 24. I can see you arguing that the transition in matthew implies a jump back to the beginning of seal five, “so when you see…” That however is not the main point of what I am saying though.
        Revalation 20:4 implies That all those who were in the tribulation that were righteous were killed, or else how could they “come to life”.
        This is my point. Its no the quaint sunday school sermon we all heard, when we talk of being “resurrected” or being raptured. Only Israel will make it through the entire tribulation, at least a 144000 will? To whom much is given, much will be expected.

        • if everyone gets killed, there would be no case for a rapture……at that time.

          • yes that is true, but it does say that “for the sake of the elect this time will be cut short”. That could mean once they refuse the mark, they will be killed shortly thereafter. I believe that God will be “merciful” with them in some way,
            My Theory is not so concerned with the timeline of events, as I stated above, I have not thought about those things yet. My point is that this “knowing” that we will go through suffering in the endtimes is what is missing from the modern churches understanding of endtime events. It is not exactly a feel good sermon. This attitude of rejoicing in the face of it as opposed to avoidance of it is missing. When Jesus asks “will he find faith?” This is what he is refering to.
            I agree with the concept of the rapture, but it is the “escape route” we here in the U.S. have used to maintain church membership numbers. In other parts of the world, suffering for ones faith is a Part of their faith. Some churches have “compromised” on their beliefs, while others have withstood the test and remained small.

            This is how Jesus himself “weeded” out the goats from among his disciples. As soon as the numbers would swell, he would say something controversial and many would leave. Being the bread of life and eating of his flesh is one example that pops into mind from John.
            I believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, but I believe it is for the “children of the faith”, Just like I believe that the 144000 jews who are taken into the wilderness are literal children or firstfruits.
            This is the mercy of the Lord, he will not allow us to go through something we cannot bear. especially those with less strength to do so.
            Those who understand this will be unified in their struggle, many however, will not accept this, and be disheartened by it. There focus is on the things of this world, rather than on God’s kingdom.
            Once someone is saved, they are always saved. It is just we have a lot of goats mixed in with the sheep. This is what the faith of the centurion was all about. He saw that Jesus spoke with authority, and believed that he had the power to heal from afar.
            Whatever tests we face now, consider it a joy, for the Lord is refining us in the fire, as Gold is refined in a fire, so that it may shine forth the Lord’s light that shines upon it. This is the conclusion that I have come to over the past nearly 2 years as my life has been turned upside down. Let the Love of God shine through us.

  59. To Dru2!
    About Rev 20. Many peoples souls who died during Noas time where given to satan. They don´t have the right to be reborn here on Earth/Paradise. Satan and thoose who died during Noas time will come to Earth (If we should follow the book of Rev) and persue the Christians.
    They will say take this mark on your hand or foreheand or we will cut the neck of you. The mark is a chip from USA:s central bank. With this chip they reach you from everywhere with the GPS system. 666 in old Greec is WWW = World wide webb. We must learn to live without money because when Jesus performs the doom the old money system will be destroyed and they will try to implement an new system. If we accept this we will be in eternal pains when we die. A real Christian will say no i´m not allowed to take this mark/chip on me. And they will cut the neck of people. Satan and his people have the right to kill 1/4 of the people here on Earth which is all the Christians. And I can tell you that there is no Rapture. This people are not allowed to touch the Oil or Grape. Oil = Jews, Grape = Arameic/Syrians.
    Jews and the Arameic people don´t have the the book of Rev. in their Bibel and Torah/Tanach.

    About 144000:

    Their is life on 2 planets in Universe, on Earth and Nibiru. The 144000 lives on Nibiru. They are 12000 from each 12 tribe. 2 of them came to USA in 1948. They wanted to help USA from the coming pains. They were interviewed and then killed in Rosewell, New Mexico 1948. USA killed holy
    people and you have destroyed the holy 12 number.
    USA are in big trouble.

    To Marianne!

    Their is no Rapture. Paulus gave us some wrong info.

    //The Prophet

    • Hello again Ibm
      The US covert military is about two generations ahead in its technological development. What appears as UFO’s and aliens is merely the rare glimpses that civilians get of these craft. They always have one covert spy plane revealed to the public, one in operation which we know little to nothing about, and one in research and development. Beyond that, they have other technologies that are being tested. Computer technology and Artificial intelligence is reaching a singularity in the next decade or two. I believe it is highly likely that some of this technology will be involved in the mark of the beast, and the image of the beast. For groups like the NSA, I am sure that they too are ahead of the curve on the technology. In fact my writing of NSA probably sent a signal to one of their computers as a possible threat. lol
      But we as Christians need not fear flesh and blood, for they cannot separate us from the love of almighty God. As for Nibiru, I think i will suspend belief till I actually see it. And do not post all the videos that are on you tube!
      BTW there is no wrong material in Paul’s Epistles, only wrong interpretation thereof.

  60. Dru,

    Regarding your post dated July 12th. @ 2:27 am. above.

    First things first here. None of what I say below is meant to belittle you in any way. So though you have demonstrated a tendency in the past to take what is said personally, please don’t. I am just expressing my personal opinion as you have previously expressed yours yourself.

    I am sorry that you do not happen to believe that by utilizing a process of a systematic breakdown, consisting of what the accurate and specific definitions of a word within the original language that it was written, isn’t somehow the more logical approach to utilize to reveal the true meaning of Scripture.

    Or that in doing so, the resulting revelation that this analysis brings to light is also ludicrous.

    It is not my doctrine regarding this particular parable, neither is it really solely my interpretation above, but rather an exegetical one. The parable explicitly reveals that when this event takes place, (at whatever time) some will be allowed to enter through that door, (Thura) and proceed to the wedding, whereas some will not.
    It also appears (through those definitions), to explain what it is that is the distinguishing factor between those believers, or Virgins.

    Because you have chosen to rely strictly upon an English translation of the Bible for your studies, you have limited yourself, (simply because of the limitations of the English language itself) to not only being able to understand what is actually being said, but to also perhaps, take what is said completely out of context.
    For example, the passages and verses that you have posted to substantiate your theory, (Mathew 24:9-14 again, as well as revelation 6:9-11, 12:17, In the light of Jesus’ New commandment found in John 15:12-17 and what Paul revealed in Romans 8:17.)

    In addressing just one of these above for you, it is my hope that you will be able to understand that what I say is not without foundation.

    Romans 8:17.

    First I believe that it is incorrect to pull out any singular verse, and utilize it to substantiate a theory if not utilized within the specific context in which it was originally expressed. I also don’t believe in breaking a sentence up itself either, simply because some translator in the past decided to place a verse number there.
    So I will quote verses 16 and 17.

    “The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.” NKJV.

    You are utilizing “if indeed we suffer with Him” as being Scriptural evidence to substantiate your position, correct?

    Well what is it that Paul is referring to prior to making this statement?
    He is speaking of the importance of walking in the Spirit as opposed to walking in the flesh. He then tells the believers to who this epistle was sent, that if they have accepted Yeshua as their Savior they now are indwelt by the Spirit and therefore can, “if they choose”, overcome the desire to walk in the flesh.

    The reason that I have said “if they choose” and placed those words in brackets is simply because of the fact that Paul is saying what he is saying.

    The necessity for him to say all of what he says here would be redundant, if when someone accepted Yeshua as their Savior, they automatically started walking in the Spirit without having to remain conscious of doing so.
    Therefore the believer, (in still having free will), has the choice to do so or not.

    As well, to further prove this point, what sense would it make for Paul to say the following to a believer if a choice in how we live is not only available, but also important to do so?
    “For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” Romans 8:13,14. NKJV.

    Paul is clearly making a distinction here between believers that possess the Spirit, and that it is by walking in the Spirit that then designates those believers as being the sons of God.

    This is also confirmed by what he says previously to this, (in verses 9 through 12) that this epistle is directed to those that have the Spirit.
    “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.”

    Therefore this would then have relevance to the parable of the Ten Virgins. All had the Spirit, yet not all walked by the Spirit. Those that walked by the Spirit entered through that door,(the Wise). Those that chose to walk by the flesh, didn’t, (the Foolish). Walking by the Spirit is the distinguishing factor that is revealed within that parable.

    Now to address specifically Romans 8:17 and “if indeed we suffer with Him”, or in the King James, “if so be that we suffer with him,”
    The words translated into English as, “if so be” are from the Greek “ei per” (Strong’s 1512) its definitions are, “if indeed, since, if after all”. The words that have been translated into the English as, ” that we suffer with him,” are from the Greek, “sympaschō” and its definitions are, “to suffer or feel pain together, to suffer evils (troubles, persecutions) in the like manner with another.”
    Now it would be a ridiculous stretch in my opinion to take this literally. That would simply eliminate all of us that weren’t also crucified. (Clearly Paul has stated above that the prerequisite is to walk in the Spirit, as being the determining factor between life or death.) Therefore logically, the scope of what is said here within this specific verse is comprised of a broader sense.

    The English word “sympathy” is derived from this particular Greek word, and in utilizing the meaning understood between that, and the definitions of the original Greek, means that we will all experience troubles. These troubles are not restricted to, or limited to that of the physical realm either. They could be experienced within the emotional aspect of an individual as well. However, it is not referring as having anything to do with Christians having to go through the tribulation as such, for Paul is utilizing it within the present tense. This can easily be confirmed if you were to continue to read verse (18).

    Nonetheless, for you to pull this singular verse out, and attempt to utilize it to substantiate your beliefs, (along with the others) is to me in my opinion, incorrect. As I have stated to you before regarding this, (your theory) I do not agree with it. I have stated that we choose to agree to disagree, yet you continue to attempt to draw me into debate regarding it? To me it is simply contrary to Scripture, and therefore I will not participate further regarding it.

    Be Blessed.

    • I will get back to your comment. You need to read the post that abdullah put up on the Mahdi page this is significant.

    • Alienated
      Do you believe at salvation we are given the choice to accept Christ’s gift?
      You stated above that we choose whether to live by the spirit or walk in the flesh. Is it such a hard stretch to believe that we will be given a choice to be raptured versus sufferring as Christ suffered. This is obedience to his “new commandment”. When I quoted romans 8:17 I did not take it out of context. I purposely went through the whole book of Ephesians, so that you could not say I took it out of context. I could have done that with any of the epistles, and the Gospels or romans, but chose Ephesians out of brevity.
      What I am trying to point out is a “theme” in the New Testament. A theme that has been overlooked for centuries, and one that will come to its ultimate fruition in the endtimes. A theme that is not a popular one, and will weed out the tares, or separate the Goats. One who’s “reward” is to be “great in heaven”.
      I purposely pointed you to the Beatitudes, hoping you would look at those verses in context as well. This lists the “Choices” we make, and the rewards we accumulate for making them. Note the first one is “poor in spirit”. Their reward is the Kingdom of heaven. This is the first step in faith, namely repentence. It gurantees membership in the kingdom of heaven.
      Blessed are those who mourn: They will be comforted by the comforter.
      Blessed are the meek: along with the kingdom of heaven, they will be comforted, and inherit the earth….You should see our faith playing out in the beattitudes.
      Note then, there are nine beatitudes, and nine corresponding actions to each of the nine. Poor in spirit= salt and light, Meekness=controlling anger, Hunger for righteousness=overcoming lust, flesh, mercy= divorce, till finally ninth beatitude says blessed are you when others revile you…= Giving to the needy. If you read it carefully, you will see a correlation between each beatitude and its corresponding instruction.

      As I have told you before, My mind works from the big concepts down to the small “proofs” for it. Sometimes those small “proofs” contradict my big concept. at which time i must rework or even throw out that concept. You work in the opposite direction. This is neither good nor bad, and in fact is benificial to the body of Christ, and its testing of the spirits. I appreciate your study on the ten virgins, for your study is thorough. I am only saying that you need to broaden that work. For example: the first and the 8th beatitude have the same reward. I think Jesus used the ten virgins parable to elaborate on this distinction more (hint,hint). And then it is followed by the ninth beatitude. which I believe refers to the “perfection of our love”.

      So if it seems like I am knocking down your study, I am not. I am trying to broaden it, Just like you are trying to narrow mine. Two approaches, same result, if we can learn from each other. Just like that time we were going at it with James (I think) about repentence not being a work. Your linguistic study helped to prove a point that the spirit led me to understand in a broad sense. It was a couple of months ago, so I do not remember all the details.

      Narrowness alone leads to posts such as this one which lack the broad picture of the Gospel. Just as Broadness alone can lead to a shallow understanding of the Gospel. Which I fall prey to and you rightly criticize me for.

      I believe there is also another nine instruction after the Lord’s prayer in the sermon on the mount which correlate to the nine beatitudes as well. culminating in building our house on the rock as number nine. This would be an educational study to do.

      God bless. Sounds like a theme!

      • Alienated
        Hey here is the section in John where Jesus thins out the herd.
        John 6:22-59 He talks of being the bread of life and how we must eat of his flesh… “60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?… 61. Jesus said; “do you take offense at this?….64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (for Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray him)…66. After this, many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.” (Snippets from verses 60-66.)

        • Hi Dru,

          Sounds like a foreshadowing to a similar thinning out process, explained in the Ten Virgins parable huh?
          Those that didn’t wish to eat the bread of life, (therefore abide in Him), by walking in the Spirit.

          Be Blessed

      • dru

        I am re- reading this as you asked me to.

        I am not sure what you would have me do or comment about. The sermon on the mount is a long discourse.

        I am not sure which “nine” you are referring to after the Lord’s prayer.

        • Marianne
          The nine beatitudes have two corresponding sets of nine instructions with a break in the middle where the Lord’s prayer is introduced. Each beatitude is a “level of faith” to use your term for it.

          Being poor in spirit is our repentence and coming to Christ. Its reward is the Gurantee of the Kingdom of heaven. Its instruction is to be the salt and let your light shine, as well as after the Lord’s prayer instructions on fasting. (self righteousness)
          Those who mourn are mourning over sin and the law (Godly sorrow). The reward is comforted by the comforter. Its instruction is to focus on “fulfilling the Law” in them. (led by the spirit) Also lay up heavenly treasures “where your treasure is there your heart is.”
          Meekness is self control empowered by the spirit. They shall inherit the earth. Their specific instruction is regarding Anger the emotion is to be controlled as well and not to be anxious about worldly needs. (its about controlling the emotions, led by the Spirit)….

          Its like a 3 cubed part sermon if you know what I mean. These are all choices we make in our spiritual walk, or sojourn, that we must make in the affirmative or fall away. The Ninth one is the one that is “missing” in modern church teaching, and is the one I am trying to get Alienated and others to understand. “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account….So they persecuted the prophets.” The instruction for this level; Giving to the needy… as in those who are needy in spirit. It is aprivate decision we make, not one we boastfully proclaim. And Building our house on the rock (Jesus Christ). Failing to make this choice results in a “Great fall”.

          Earlier in my life, I was living a life that I thought was Christian, and i was working my way to meekness, and abiding by the Law, but it was not Spirit led. It was prompted by self-righteousness, and was only an out ward change (ala the pharisees). I had a fall from that place of pride, and it brought my faith to Level one. I always knew the Lord was with me, but It is then that I learned to be led by the Spirit on my walk. I basically had to start over. This time, my choices were led by the Spirit. It has been a long slow walk, at times I would refuse to let the spirit take the lead, at other times I could not have made it if it were not for God coming and picking me up and giving me strength. I am by no means where I need to be yet, but i am sure he will lead me there by his grace. It reminds me in a way of the book “The Pilgrims Progress”.

          If I only would have understood How our Christian life is to be led, I would not have made those mistakes, But the Lord has used those mistakes to teach me his ways, and for that I am grateful. I am having a hard time with this last step. It is a hard pill to swallow to choose to suffer for his name’s sake in the tribulation. To see all those souls turn against you, and to see Loved ones fall away. But then there is the one soul that my testimony may lead to turn to God, and for that their will be rejoicing in heaven. This decision truly grieves me….But with God all things are possible.

          When we were needy, he came for us. When we in our pride said we Do not need God, He humbled himself and died on the cross for us. When we needed comfort, he cradled us. when we need correction, he disciplines us. When we need strenghth he emboldens us. When we are hungry, he feeds us. When we thirst he gives us Living water. When we sorrow he brings us joy. …

          When he asks one thing from us, We cry and moan about what we must give up.

          • Hi Dru,

            I appreciate that it is your desire for me to understand Matthew 5:10-12. (I believe that I do personally)
            However, this would be my desire for you as well, since you appear to have taken these verses and applied there meaning to simply be that of somehow being representative for some Christians to “choose” to stay and witness Yeshua during the time of the tribulation.

            I have responded to this before for you, with the Greek regarding the change (Allasso) happening in a split second of time. I have responded by asking you to understand who it was that was His audience at the time. etc. etc. etc. So instead of of attempting to express my thoughts once more regarding this theory of yours, I instead challenge you to come up with anything that is definitively supportive to your theory within Scripture?

            I don’t believe that you will find anything.
            I think that you are trying to have God’s word somehow support your belief, rather than having your belief being supported by God’s word.

            Just my thoughts.
            Be Blessed.

          • dru

            I guess to better visualize what you are saying, it would help to construct a chart with level one at the bottom, and each level above it quoting from the beatitudes, sermon, etc. In the chart, put parallel verses in with their instructions as well. You could mail me an excel sheet with this information on it.

  61. To all
    This Guy claims to be the mahdi of islam, and i just wanted to post this page to show how they have twisted the ressurection of the dead, and the persecution of the saints. You should all read this guys stuff. He is, I believe the mahdi. He will later play into end time events.
    http://www.almahdy.eu/showthread.php?485-Planet-Saqar-Sijil-and-the-Dajjal-Fa

    • hi dru

      This information is also all over New Age sites….they have direct alien contact, and get this information from them.

      There will be a pole shift, and the earth will wobble out of place and will tilt 40 degrees as nibiru passes and its south pole grabs our north pole and swings it around, causing the east – west change.

      There will be a prolonged 3 day period of day on one side of the earth and a 3 day period of darkness on the other side. Since the earth is tilted, the location of the equator will change and it will be hot where it is cooler now. The north pole will tilt down close to the middle east, making it cooler there than on the other side of the earth. The west will be very hot, while the new north pole will keep the middle east livable.

      They will take advantage of this and wage (Gog) war against Israel, knowing that the USA is burning up, and possibly flooded from the tilt, and tsunamis from the ocean..

      This is the time of the trumpets, which is the wrath of god, and after the tribulation. THey call the planet Nibiru or “X” but we know it as Wormwood.

      What the aliens are not telling them is that the middle east is only temporarily safe, and they will suffer through 5 major earthquakes, and meet their final demise at Armageddon.

      The aliens are not here to save them. They will all go down at the end.

      This time is soon approaching. Maybe in a year?

      • marianne

        So you think the tribulation begins with the appearence of wormwood? That means that the first few seals are pre trib?

        My Opinion for what its worth, this is the false tribulation.

        • hi dru

          no.

          I think the tribulation is over by then, and the world has entered the wrath period.

          • so you believe we are living the seals as we speak?

            • Dru

              It seems like it. I am not saying that for sure, but the antichrist spirit has been with us already for 2000 years, there has been wars, famines, death, pestilances, and martyrdom of the saints. It is now accelerating and will be reaching a climax at some point soon, as teh dollar collapses, we suffer more natural disasters, and Islam takes over for a season. We have Wormwood flying at us, now named Nibiru, or Planet X, and it is now detectable by Hubble telescope. It fits its description from Rev. It is a star, with a tail full of meteorites ready to rain “stars” down on us, full of iron oxide, which will make our waters bitter. we should know in the next year how close or already involved we are.

      • Marianne
        I know I have not bothered you about the false tribulation concept, but when you read this guys stuff, it is undeniable. also with regard to those being persecuted.
        Just the way he explains the rapture of the dead, knowing that these will be Christian and jewish gravesites. This of course assumes a pretrib rapture of some sort. Mahdi is supposed to rule for 7-10 years, and will be a pacifist muslim (if there is such a thing) . this will make for atime of peace and safety for the rapture. After rapture he will attack in a false gog magog war, Which is really psalm 83 war, This will usher in the real AC to make covenent w/ many, and begin attack on Christians, for many will be swayed into believing that the Christ figure that the Mahdi fights alongside is the real Christ, but in fact is the Ac in disguise. This will make it easy for Mahdi to persue Christians who deny this false Christ as a form of judgement, which in reality is the fifth seal. Then this false Christ will stand in the temple and set up his image as the real Christ, his mark will appear as the seal of God.

        Just my thoughts, and totally theoretical biblically. If it turns out to be true, at least you were warned, if it is false… to err is human…

        Just trying to be a detective.

  62. Marianne
    I do not doubt that nibiru is possible, I just do not think it is wormwood as spoken of in revalation. Any way, we are off the topic of this page. Out of curiousity, I would like your thoughts on the Sermon on the Mt stuff that I replied to alienated with. If I remember correctly, you have a page on here which talks of the steps we take in our faith that is similar to this concept, but I can’t remember what it is called. I know i commented on it once. If you could put the link up for it, so that we can compare and contrast.

  63. To All,

    I wish to revisit the original topic of this post.
    That being “Once Saved, Always Saved.”

    If you have to twist a passage to fit your theology then you should simply take a closer look at your theology.
    God’s word is consistent, but Scripture must be taken as a whole. If you take isolated passages and then base your whole theology upon them, isn’t it likely that you will be mislead?

    There are many verses which state that the believer is safe and secure. It is not my desire to attempt to discredit those verses, (for I hold fast to them myself, believing that a believer is as safe and secure as he/she “wants” to be.) I do however believe, (based upon Scripture), that a believer can change their mind and walk away from their faith, and in doing so, then release themselves from the Covenant of Salvation.

    I believe as long as we live and choose to remain in our faith, God will honor that decision.

    Too many Christians appear to utilize portions of a single verse, (regardless if it happens to break up a sentence), and then with that, create their doctrine. I could not begin to count how many times I have heard someone say to substantiate their point of view, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” yet seem to disregard the rest of the sentence, and what it is that is the prerequisite for that previous statement to be in force, “who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”

    Too many also appear to disregard the word “IF” as well. Read John 15:1-5, then apply the following “IF” which would represent having a choice and as being a prerequisite.

    “IF” anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 “IF” you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.” John 15:6,7. NKJV.

    Read Proverbs 4, then consider the following; Why would the apostles constantly be saying things like, “unless you believed in vain”? Why would they constantly be saying to remain “obedient”? Why would they say, “hold firm, or hold fast”? Or not to “turn from the faith”? Why would they say that to “walk in the Spirit is life, but to walk in the flesh is death”? Why would they express fear for those who had heard the word of truth, yet now appear to need correction, so all of their work in teaching them initially wasn’t all simply a waste? How does one become an “Overcomer” so as to not have their name “blotted” out of the book of life, as Yeshua says in Rev.3:5?

    And how could that even be a possibility, if OSAS was indeed a true doctrine?

    The plain and simple, logically sound reason for that would be, because OSAS isn’t true. And that we have a choice to remain faithful and to participate, for all of the passages that those that believe this doctrine utilize to take affect. The passages that have been expressed by those above are true, but only if we choose to, “not believe in vain, remain obedient, hold firm or fast, abide in Him, and walk in the Spirit. etc.etc.”

    For those that do not believe this, I was going to provide a plethora of verses for you to investigate, but instead decided on posting only one.

    “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; ” Philippians 2:12. NKJV.

    Be Blessed

  64. “21, And you were once ALIENATED and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22. He has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23. IF indeed you CONTINUE in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL YOU HEARD, which has been proclaimed in ALL creation under Heaven and of which I Paul, became a minister. 24. Now I rejoice in my SUFFERINGS FOR YOUR SAKE, and in my flesh I am FILLING UP what is lacking in CHRIST”S AFFLICTIONS For the SAKE OF HIS BODY, that is, The church, 25. Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given me for you, TO MAKE THE WORD OF GOD FULLY KNOWN, 26. The MYSTERY hidden for ages and generations BUT NOW REVEALED TO HIS SAINTS. 27. To them God CHOSE to make known how great among the gentiles are the RICHES OF THE GLORY OF THIS MYSTERY, WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY. 28. HIM WE PROCLAIM WARNING EVERYONE AND TEACHING EVERYONE WITH ALL WISDOM, that we may present EVERYONE MATURE IN CHRIST. 29. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. CH 2:1 FOR THIS I WANT YOU TO KNOW how great astruggle I have for you and for those at Laodicea and for All who have not seen me face to face, 2. that there hearts may be encouraged, being KNIT TOGETHER in LOVE, To REACH ALL THE RICHES OF FULL ASSURANCE OF UNDERSTANDING AND THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD”S MYSTERY, WHICH IS CHRIST, 3. IN WHOM ARE HIDDEN ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE. 4. I SAY THIS INORDER THAT NO ONE MAY DELUDE YOU WITH PLAUSIBLE ARGUMENTS. 5. For though I am absent in body, Yet I am with you in Spirit, rejoicing to see good order and the FIRMNESS OF YOUR FAITH IN CHRIST. 6. Therefore, AS YOU RECEIVED CHRIST JESUS THE LORD, SO WALK IN HIM…13 And you, Who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive TOGETHER in him, Having FORGIVEN US ALL OUR TRESPASSES, 14. By CANCELLING THE RECORD OF DEBT THAT STOOD AGAINST US WITH ITS LEGAL DEMANDS. THIS HE SET ASIDE, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS 15. HE DISARMED THE RULERS AND AUTHORITIES and put them to open shame, BY TRIUMPHING OVER THEM in HIM.” Colossians 1:21-2:6, 2:13-15

    Luke 6: 22-23,28 ” Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil on account of the Son of Man! 23. Rejoice in that day, and leap for Joy, for behold, Your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers DID TO THE PROPHETS….
    28. WOE to you when all people speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the FALSE prophets.”

  65. Under OSAS we insist that since we remain in the flesh that sin is unavoidable. But the whole point of ” CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY’ is that because of His presence and power via His indwelling Holy Spirit…’Ro 6:6 ….. that henceforth we should not serve sin. ‘ If walking, fellowshiping, and being led by the Spirit cannot keep us from sin,….we remain servants of sin. Sin is a three step process…..and always committed by choice.

    Step 1: Lustful thought (‘when drawn by his own lust)

    Step 2: Enticement to commit the deed which is at present…only in thought. ( and enticed).

    Step 3: The deed is performed…lust is conceived.. and its offspring is sin. (it bringeth forth sin).

    Jas 1:14 Jas 1:14 (Step 1O But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, ) Step 2) and enticed.

    Jas 1:15 ( Step 3) Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    God cannot be tempted because He has no lust nature to begin the process that births sin….being ‘drawn by his own lust’.

    In that way, if He indwells us, we no longer serve the law of the flesh…but the law of the Spirit…led by the Spirit…’drawn’ by the Spirit rather than by lust. In that way we can be ‘perfect as He is perfect.;

    1. Spiritual thought (a new creature in Christ)
    2. Enticement to commit the deed born in thought
    3. The deed performed…good is conceived…and its offspring is righteousness, holiness, good fruit

    1co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

    Once Saved Always Saved is reality!!! It is called Sanctification. ‘Sin not’ means nothing other than ‘Sin not.’

    Let us encourage one another to commit holiness with the fervency that we justify continuing in sin. To say that once can reach Sanctification by way of continuing in sin is not reasonable. I are not agree with anyone that we are to continue in sin because we dwell in the flesh body. Christ is the example.

    Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    • Internet Elias
      Your statement: “Once saved always saved is a reality!!! It is called sanctification…” I whole heartedly agree with this statement. My point with the verses above was to show how the Apostles viewed suffering and and persecution. They rejoiced, even lept for joy, It was an honor to be “chosen” for this and It was done for the sake of the church… When was the last time you heard a three point sermon on this, that we are called to suffer? What I am saying is that this is the ultimate goal of our sanctification process.
      I have never given license for sin, only I have tried to show mercy to those that fall prey to it, for we all fall when we are learning to ride a bicycle. Eventually we may make it to the top of the mountain in the tour de france. God uses our failures to teach us, some have to hit rock bottom before we learn, Others learn and move on with little resistance. The point is that we “Continue in the faith” Not that we gaze back and condemn those that are still struggling to make it to the mountaintop, which is what this post appears to be. One view brings unity of the faith, the other dissention and heartache.
      To some people, this appears hard to comprehend. That our sanctification is not complete, and we must encourage those who are where we were, instead of condemning them to hell fire. Yes we must rebuke and correct those who are not acknowledging their sin, and living in it. It is our duty. It is also our duty to show mercy to those who are children of the faith, and still learning to ride that bicycle. Someday they may win the race that they undertake.
      God bless, Be like Christ!

  66. The Grace of God
    “TRUE” grace of God? The majority of professing Christians in the world today do not understand the true meaning of God’s grace. Many believe that the grace of God is this big ‘cover up’. That all you need to do is believe in Jesus and your sins will be covered over and it doesn’t matter if you continue to walk in sin, because you are now “under grace not law”. Is this Bible truth? Not at all. Take a look at what Paul said to the Corinthian Church:

    2 Corinthians 6:1 …..’We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.’

    Do you see what the apostle Paul is saying there? He is talking to the Church in Corinth. He is talking to people who profess to have turned to Jesus, but he is PLEADING with them not to receive the grace of God in vain. Why? Because although they have accepted Jesus into their lives, they are still walking in sin!! And this is the very state of the majority of churches today! And why is Paul ‘pleading’ with the church? Because if they receive the grace of God in vain, then in reality, they are not under grace at all, but still under sin!

    The reason this is such a misunderstood issue is because people believe that once they are justified, then they are saved and there is nothing more to do. This is only partly true, because although there is nothing else that WE can do OURSELVES to add to the saving work of Christ Jesus, if we truly accept what our Lord and Saviour has done for us in taking away our sins and saving us from certain death, then we should WANT to do good works for Him, not because those works will help save us, but because we ARE saved. Many Christians ignore the work of ‘sanctification’ which Jesus performs in us, as we put off the ‘old man’ and ‘walk in the Spirit’, in newness of life. They believe that once they are justified, they can sit back, continuing to live a worldly life. This is the danger of the once saved always saved doctrine. “Hey I’m saved right, and nothing can undo that! Well, I may as well enjoy my life here too!” Not so my friend!

    John 12:25 …..’He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.’

    John 15:19 …..’If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are NOT OF THE WORLD, but I have chosen you OUT OF THE WORLD, therefore the world hateth you.’

    1 John 2:15 …..’Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, THE LOVE OF THE FATHER IS NOT IN HIM.’

    Another word of sanctification is ‘holiness’, to be set apart for holy work, which is what Jesus does in us as we walk with Him. Let me just quickly explain the two elements of justification and sanctification. Justification is when a person comes to the Lord Jesus Christ in faith, accepts our Lord into his life and repents of his sins. At that moment, that person is made righteous through the blood of Jesus, receives the grace of God and is justified in the sight of God. God looks at that person through Christ and we APPEAR righteous through Him. Now sanctification is an ongoing process in that persons life, of turning away from sin and becoming holy and perfect through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. To be sanctified is to be set apart, to separate one’s self from the things of the world, and from sin and to become holy, which Jesus Christ performs in us.

    Hebrews 10:10,14 …..’By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.’

    Now take a look at what Paul says in Hebrews:

    Hebrews 12:14 …..’Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.’

    Do you see what Paul is saying here? Make EVERY EFFORT to be holy!! Does that sound like we have a part to play in this process? Of course! And why is this so important? Because as he says, without holiness, NO ONE will see the Lord!! Do you now see why Paul PLEADED with the Corinthian church to NOT receive the grace of God in vain? Friend this is so important. We must not receive the grace of God in vain like the majority of the professing Christian world does ….. Romans 6:15 …..’What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID.’ ….. We MUST put away sin from our lives and put on the ‘mind of Christ’. But remember, we cannot make ourselves holy, only Christ can do that, and we don’t do these works to BE SAVED, we do them out of a loving desire to follow Christ Jesus because He HAS SAVED us.

    Just think about this for a moment. Before the time of Jesus, a person would be considered a murderer or an adulterer if they PHYSICALLY killed someone or slept with another man’s wife. But Jesus taught us that under grace, even if you THINK about it in your mind, then you are guilty. Now which is the higher standard? GRACE!! Living under grace is a higher standard than under the physical law. Grace demands more of us, and yet the majority of professing Christians in the world will tell you that you are free to sin under grace. But, the Bible clearly teaches us that we don’t do this on our own. We cannot do it on our own, because we live in sinful flesh, which cannot keep God’s law in of itself. So how do we do it? Through Christ Jesus! 2 Peter 1:3 …..’According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.’ ….. Do you see this wonderful Bible truth? When we come to Christ in faith and truly accept Him into our lives and desire to be like Him, He will give us ALL THINGS that we need to live holy and Godly lives.

    Many professing Christians even believe that our FUTURE sins are already covered under grace, WITHOUT us repenting of them! But take a look at what Paul said ….. Romans 3:25 …..’Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of SINS THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God.’ ….. Paul tells us that it is our Sins that are PAST that are covered by Jesus blood. Also, if you take a look at what Jesus says to the seven churches in Revelation, you will see that He tells the majority of them to REPENT. Now these are His church that He is speaking to, and yet He is telling them to repent. Are our future sins already forgiven? Absolutely not!! Friend, I plead with you never to stop repenting of your sins.

    Remember, under the Old Testament law, you had to physically commit the sin to be guilty. Under grace all you have to do is THINK about it and you are guilty. So the grace of God demands more from us. But don’t forget that God will empower us through His grace to be holy and keep His Commandments.

    Now I love what God has given us through James in the Bible. What James does is COMPLETE the picture of the true grace of God:

    James 2:14,19,20 …..’What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:18 …..’Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.’

    James comes along and says: “You say that you have the grace of God in your life? SHOW ME!! Prove it by your walk, the way you live, show me your fruit and your works. You say you have the grace of God WITHOUT works? I’ll show you the grace of God in my life BY MY WORKS” This completes the picture of grace for us, and shows us that we cannot TRULY be under grace if we do not walk the way Jesus walked and strive for holiness. If you do not do good works towards others and don’t do the works of God’s Commandments, then your faith is in vain and DEAD. Again, we don’t do these works TO BE saved, we do them because we ARE saved. If you truly accept what Jesus has done for you, then you should desire nothing else, but to serve and follow in His footstep.

    “Take up your cross and follow Me!”

    This is why the majority of the professing Christian world do not walk the way Jesus walked. They use the grace of God as an excuse to continue living a worldly life of sin. If you truly accepted the grace of God in your life, then you would walk the walk of Christ Jesus. The parables of the ten virgins and the talents and other parables show us that the only difference between the professing Christians who are saved and lost is what they DID with their lives. They all knew Jesus, they all believed they were under grace and were saved, but it was only those who ‘worked out their salvation with fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), those who ‘showed their faith by their works’ (James 2:18), those who ‘made every effort to be holy’ (Hebrews 12:14) that were saved. And it wasn’t those works that saved them, but those works they did, PROVED that they had truly accepted Christ into their lives and accepted the gift of grace.

    Hebrews 12:15 …..’looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God.’ ….. How can we fall short of the grace of God? By refusing to use it’s full potential. By not using the power of Christ Jesus in our lives to become perfect and holy.

    1 Peter 1:16 …..’because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy”.

    Deuteronomy 18:13 …..’Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.’

    Hebrews 6:1 …..’Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection.’

    Hebrews 13:20-21 …..’Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.’

    James 1:4 …..’But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.’

    1 John 2:5 …..’But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.’

    2 Corinthians 7:1 …..’Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.’

    2 Timothy 3:16-17 …..’All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.’

    2 Corinthians 13:11 …..’Finally, brethren, farewell. BE PERFECT, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.’

    Do you see the amazing truth from these Bible verses? Friend, we have a work to do, but we do not do it on our own, and we do not do it to be saved. We do it because we ARE saved by the PERFECT obedient life and sacrifice of Christ Jesus. If we truly accept the grace of God in our lives, then He will give us of His Holy Spirit who will help us walk with Christ, and Christ will stand in our place before God and God will see a person cleansed of sin, spotless and righteous THROUGH Christ. Do you have the grace of God in your life today?

    Agape, david

    • His call
      Romans 3:26 is talking about our Justification. The repentence mentioned there is in reference to our acknowledgement of Sin , and the repentence that leads to belief. If you are saying that we must repent for our sins to be forgiven, you are saying that our actions have the ability to forgive our sins. In fact you are saying that a “work” can save us. Jesus Blood and sacrifice was all God needed to see us as Justified in his sight, this means All our sins. to say otherwise cheapens Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. This is the error that has led to indulgences and other “works” being required for the forgiveness of sins, by the Catholic church. No work, not even our repenting can forgive us our sins apart from the blood of Jesus. This does not mean that we should sin that grace may abound, on the contrary, confession and turning from sin is a part of walking with God, being led by the Spirit, or Continuing in the faith. If you are not being sanctified by the HS and living in sin, you are probably not saved in the first place.
      In our justification as Christians, forgiveness comes with belief, repentence leads to belief that the blood of Jesus has the power to forgive because it is God’s blood shed for sin as a “final” blood sacrifice for sin.
      Sanctification is the work of God’s grace led by the Holy Spirit, so that those who are saved are producing “fruit” aka works.

    • His Call 888. (David)

      Good word. Couldn’t agree with you more!
      Amen my Brother.

      Be Blessed

  67. John 3:11-12,15

    • The verses that are quoted above are a “snippet” of a conversation between our Lord and a Pharisee named Nicodemus, (a member of the Sanhedrin, the highest religious, legislative and judicial body of the Jews), and a highly respected teacher of the Tanakh, (Old Testament Scriptures.)

      To place those verses above in better context and for the convenience of the reader, I will post the entirety of what was discussed between the both of them below.

      (1) There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews.
      (2) This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
      (3) Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
      (4) Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
      (5) Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
      (6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
      (7) Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
      (8) The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
      (9) Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
      (10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?
      (11) Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness.
      (12) If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
      (13) No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
      (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
      (15) that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
      (16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
      (17) For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
      (18) He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
      (19) And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
      (20) For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:1-21. NKJV.

      Now, though I could systematically breakdown and dissect all of what is said above to arrive at what is meant within the text itself, I will choose instead to present the obvious, (in an effort to assist those that don’t quite understand yet).

      Those that utilize verses 15, 16 and 18, which contain the word translated as “believes, or believed” to substantiate their position, have now not bothered take into account what Yeshua has just previous stated in verses 3, 5 and 7, and have instead discarded them. Belief itself dose not allow for someone to enter the kingdom of God, for even the demons believe. (James 2:19) So obviously “belief” is not the be all and end all.

      Belief itself doesn’t allow for one to receive the Holy Spirit. Belief instead, is the catalyst for one to delve deeper, and to partake within the being “born again” experience. It is only then, that one is then justified in the eyes of God to the point that they can now receive the Holy Spirit.

      Those that simply take the verses containing the word(s) believe to utilize as evidentiary support, are then taking the word itself, as being the conclusive prerequisite and are dismissing more or less, all of the rest of Scripture and what it is that is required to enter the kingdom of God.

      1 Timothy 6:3-5.

      For those whose eyes are open, Be Blessed.

      • For those that may be interested in a more detailed commentary of the above discussion between Yeshua and Nicodemus, I just searched out and read this at the link below.

        http://bible.org/seriespage/jesus-and-nicodemus-john-31-21

      • Perhaps you should look at how the word “Pistis” and “pistueo” come from the same word. While You are at it, look at the word “Lambano” and “epilambanomai”. Then compare to the verses that speak of “continuing in the faith”.

        1 Timothy 6:11

      • Luke 23:43. So the thief who hung on the cross beside Jesus Got the HS there, before the apostles did?? You really should read what you are writing. We are Justified by faith aka belief, PERIOD. Thats what Romans 3:26 is all about. The “sanctification” which occurs there is “instantaneous sanctification”, and is the forgiveness of our past sinfullness. Progressive sanctification then begins, which leads us to a pure Heart, where the Law is in line with our actions.
        Or are you saying that when it says in acts, to “believe on the Lord Jesus, and you WILL be saved…” (16:31), they are teaching falsely?
        You are going contrary to the doctrine of Salvation by faith alone, through grace alone. This is apostacy. Titus 1:10-16

        • Dru,

          First I do read what I write. I am just sorry that you don’t understand.

          Secondly , I commend you for finally taking the leap into the Greek to further lead you in your studies. I hope that you do the same with the Hebrew as well.

          Regarding the Greek words that are utilized in John 3:1-21 that you have quoted above.

          I am well aware of there definitions and as well, of there word origins. Peitho, (Strong’s 3982) is the word origin for Pistis, (Strong’s 4102) which is the word origin for Pisteuo, (Strong’s 4100). They all refer to either conviction of the truth, or being persuaded of such as being true. Therefore they were translated into the English believe, believes etc by the translators in keeping within the context of what was being said.

          For example in the King James, “Peitho”, depending on its linguistic settings has being translated as, “persuade, trust, obey, have confidence, believe, be confident, as well at other times simply a miscellaneous word.”

          “Pistis” has been translated into, “assurance, believe, belief, them that believe, and fidelity.”

          “Pisteuo” into, “believe, commit unto, commit to (one’s) trust, be committed unto, be put in trust with, be commit to one’s trust, and believer.”

          The definitions themselves imply by the context of the text itself in John 3:1-21, that one must believe. They don’t however change the fact that one must be “born again” to enter the kingdom of God. Or imply, if taken in that correct context, that to simply believe is enough.

          I don’t see your point?

          Neither, do I really understand your point in throwing out two other Greek words indiscriminately either?

          “Epilambanomai” (Strong’s 1949) appears 20 times in the original Greek text in 18 verses, and is translated into English from, “and caught, he took, took, they might take hold, take hold, they laid hold upon, they caught, they took, and took, lay hold on, they may lay hold on, when I took” depending upon how and what was being said.

          “Lambanō” (Strong’s 2983) appears a total of 272 times in the original Greek text and in 248 different verses. (And no I am not going to list them all. I have better things to do.) However just briefly, it has been translated into many different English words or phrases as well, from “take away, receive, took, ye have received, that taketh, that held, etc. etc.
          As well within its definitions it does contain, “to receive what is offered and not to refuse or reject it!”

          (By the way, since you have just discovered the Greek, you will also soon discover its complexities.
          You may be interested to know that for the English word “receive” there happens to be a total of 57 different Greek words that can be utilized in meaning to receive specific things like, ideas, comfort, hearing, understanding, hospitality, etc.The language itself is far more point specific than that of English.)

          However, I complied with your request and searched out some of those verses that state that we should, “maintain our faith.” Some of those that would include that particular sentiment would be;

          “Continue in the faith”

          Acts 14:22.
          Colossians 1:23.

          “Hold fast”

          1 Corinthians 15:2.
          2 Thessalonians 2:15.
          2 Timothy 1:13.
          Hebrews 3:6.
          Hebrews 4:14.
          Revelation 2:13.
          Revelation 2:5.
          Revelation 3:3.
          Revelation 3:11.

          “Keep the faith”

          Revelation 14:12.

          “Be in vain”

          Romans 13:4.
          1 Corinthians 15:58.
          1 Thessalonians 3:5.

          After completing this investigation, (though I still have no real idea as to what your point was), it has only furthered my convictions regarding my beliefs. ”

          I will take this opportunity to wish to all, the very best.
          My time and energies are required elsewhere.

          Be Blessed.

  68. Looks like people are speaking in tongues here, with all that Greek. 🙂

    Quick comment.

    The thief on the cross would have been convicted by the holy spirit to receive Jesus as Lord.

    This would not mean he received the same baptism of the holy spirit that occurred on Pentecost.

    I am lost. Not sure what anyone’s point is now .. but that is ok….you understand your discussion.

    • Marianne
      If you read alienated’s comment above, you should be able to see the apostacy and unsound doctrine which this “line of thinking” is leading to. this is why it upsets the Spirit in me so much. He is now contradicting the very notion of justification by faith. I am sorry it has to come to these strong words, here and now, but I did try to stop this earlier, as did others, to no avail. This is the false doctrine that Satan has used throughout the centuries to divide the body of Christ. It is based on human pride, and the desire to exalt ourselves as superior to others in the church. It is similar to when the apostles asked who “is the greatest among them” Luke 22:24, which Jesus quickly rebuked by saying the one who serves is greatest. When we lose focus on the “Servant”, we exalt ourselves. When we lose focus on the cross, we exalt ourselves. when we stop believing that God Justifies by his grace, we exalt our works as being able to justify us.

      • actually, the whole debate seems focused on definitions of words.

        • Marianne
          Tell me if this is just a definition of words argument
          “Belief itself doesn’t allow for one to receive the Holy Spirit. Belief is the catalyst for one to delve deeper and to partake in the “born again experience. It is only then that one is THEN justified in the eyes of God to the point that they can now receive the Holy Spirit.”(Quote from alienated)

          What is delve deeper?? Whatever it is, it is a work that “then justifies”
          His defense for denying belief(faith) alone is james 2:19, the oft quoted “even the demons believe and shudder”. what people who quote that fail to understand is that Demons cannot RECEIVE God’s gift, as it was given to man.
          Whatever merit we have is counted as NOTHING when it comes to justification. This also includes the “instantaneous sanctification” that allows us to receive the Holy Spirit. These two events are simultaneous, and solely the “work” of God. Our responsibility, or “work” if you would like to call it that, is to then submit (which is an act we can only do by faith) to the work of God through the Holy Spirit. This is called “continuing in the Faith”. This is sanctification. Sanctification, by definition is done by God, and can only be credited to him. This is the “Narrow way” That leads to a pure heart, and his kingdom. ANY transformation we make by our own “effort” without submission is not a genuine transformation of the Heart. As is indicative of alienated’s response when I brought up suffering, and choosing not to be raptured to be a testimony for Christ. His response was to say he should go back to his old ways of drinking and fornicating. That is not genuine sanctification. Genuine sanctification would again submit and say where he leads, I will follow. This is “walking and Knowing” God.
          Yes this is a “subtle” difference, but it has gigantic repurcussions. Man has nothing to do with salvation, except belief. The sooner we get any inkling of man’s work out of the equation, the sooner we arrive at becoming a new creation in Christ. And thereby a unified Body of believers.

          Any comment to this will come back with “but what about this, or that”.
          For which I will continually answer ” the sooner we get man out of the equation, the sooner we arrive at becoming a new creation.”

          It was Jesus himself who asked of our generation, “will he find faith”, Not will he find christians hard at work redeeming themselves.

          As with any deception, the error is always “subtle” so that people will not discern it. this is by definition deception. It is designed to fool people. The end days apostacy is no different. People will think they are doing the work of God while persecuting Christians.

          For those who are coming back with “faith without works is dead” argument. “works” are the result of “faith”. That is the “fruit” of our sanctification. If you read the entirety of James’ epistle you will see this.

          Or for those who wish to argue from the standpoint of the parable of the sower. The “good soil” is the one that RECEIVED the seed properly.

  69. My point which you are conveniently ignoring is that “Faith” (Pistis) and “belief” (Pistueo) are synonomous(one being a verb the other a noun). Conveniently to fit your definition you left out the fact that pistis is translated as faith!! I wonder why??? (see Romans 3:22)
    Your belief is denying that our salvation is solely the work of God, as Romans 3:26 states,” It was to show HIS (God’s) righteousness at the present time, so that HE might be JUST and the JUSTIFIER of the ONE WHO HAS FAITH (Pistis) in Jesus.” KJV translates this Pistis as “Believeth”.

    You pick and choose the definitions that fit your theory, rather than trying to discern the truth as written in scripture. You are using the Greek and its multiple meanings for words to “corrupt” what is actually said in scripture, for you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit in your studies, but by your own understanding. You do not answer the questions which I present to you which would “debunk” your theories such as that of the thief who hung on the cross, and you are altering the Gospel which states that we are saved by faith (pistis) alone, through grace alone. Then you have the nerve of accusing me of being a false prophet, for rebuking your errors! I am merely doing the same thing Titus was instructed to do. To “give instruction in sound doctrine, and also rebuke those who contradict it” (1:9)

    Your “theory” is contradicting sound doctrine!! I do not care how many people come on this page “agreeing with you”. what you are teaching is contrary to scripture. Colossians says we are to “continue in the faith”. To sojourn in our belief. To keep walking in that initial faith. As we do we receive a greater understanding of God (epignosis). For it is God that saves us, His blood that forgives us, his grace that justifies us, his HS that sanctifies us by his grace. Our responsibility is only to “receive” what his love has given us. We can only receive when we understand our weekness and need for God and repent. Most of the time this is turning from sin, but at other times this turning from our own understanding of things. In other words we cannot receive the wisdom that is from God until we relinquish our control over our own understanding of things. This is what I implore you to do. Turn from this unsound doctrine, and submit to the instruction of the God. This is why I have “avoided” using greek language to prove my points till now. So that perhaps you will see that what is revealed by God is more powerful than our own understanding. That the faith of a mustard seed can overcome a mountain of worldly wisdom. I am not condemning people for using the greek as a reference, but it should come after the revalations made by the Holy spirit to prove sound doctrine, not to dictate our doctrine.

    May God give you the strength to turn from your own understanding and to receive his wisdom and understanding. In Jesus name…. God bless.

    Btw. “To err is Human, to forgive is divine” We cannot truly “understand” someone, until we “stand under” them. Submit to God and you will understand his ways.

    • Dru,

      I just thought I would stop by one last time here, because I was curious as to what self righteous rant you would reply with. So below is my final reply to you regarding it.

      Yes unfortunately above, though I am well aware of Pistis being translated as “faith”, I simply forgot to include it.
      It was a mere oversight. A typo per-se. A mistake on my part, for which I apologize. (which is something by the way, I have not seen you do yourself, to anybody yet.) But just to clarify for you, it was Not a satanic conspiracy.

      Half of your foam and spittle spewed rant, is based upon an incorrect assumption on your part. (Imagine that?)

      In the past on this sight you have expressed two aspects of your personality.
      One, that you have previously gone through a period of self righteousness.
      The other is that you have also experience insecurity. Neither of which are an attribute that would allow for an open mind to attempt to understand a differing opinion. (Especially a theological one.) Or for you to admit that you may not posses all of the answers that you perceive yourself to have.

      You don’t appear to have the capacity to think beyond your own thoughts, and because of that limitation, choose rather to personally attack the source, whether you may understand what the source has attempted to convey or not.

      So I, in taking into consideration this source (you) of the above rant, will choose to disregard it.
      For you are not my judge. (Though it appears that you believe that you are.)

      Though you have chastised me in the past, for breaking down scripture to the minutia and therefore not being able to see the big picture. (Which for an analogy, I would suspect that you would rather have a Mechanic that knows the intricacies of your engine rather than merely being able to say, “It’s a Chevy.”
      Or a Doctor well practiced in the discipline of Gastroenterology, rather than simply saying “Its your belly.”) I propose to you, that perhaps you yourself don’t fully understand the big picture yet?

      I will leave it at that, and not bother to respond further to your personal judgments and accusations.
      You, enveloped within the safety of your internet connection, can respond as you wish, for I am NOT returning here.
      I hope that you have fun.

      Please spew away. Feel free to judge me to your hearts content.
      Present to all, some more of that servant attitude of which you speak of, and demonstrate so well.

      As I stated above, “My time and energies are required elsewhere.”

  70. Dru and alienated

    I must have missed something.

    I do not see where alienated stated he would go back to fornicating if he missed the rapture.

    My views on justification is that this occurs when we are first truly born again.

    Sanctification takes awhile, since our flesh has to die, to be set apart from the world.

    The influence of the holy spirit is important in both activities.

    He is the spirit of not just faith ( belief), but is also the spirit of pure and holy faith. This distinguishes his faith from what the devils have.

    I do think the holy spirit is influential in us digging deeper once we are born again……but I think this leads to sanctification, not justification., since justification occurred initially at salvation.

    So guys, calm down.!!!!

    You are both ok.

    You are quibbling over words…….this is a mental thing….

    What is important is the presence of the Lord in your lives, and the earnestness in which you seek God and his Truth.

    Along the way, we will come to different conclusions, as we think and sort through details, but in the end, we will arrive at the same conclusions, because the Lord will direct our paths.

    • Marianne
      Thank you again for your site it truly is a blessing. Once again you commented while i was typing away. Thank you for those words. We are justified by faith alone. When this occurs, you will know it. There is NO doubt as to our status in his Kingdom. Especially after that faith has been tested. I am praying that this is the test for our brother, and that he will pass it. This is why I came “back”. My energies are spent right now, and I need a recharge. He will probably “hate” me for it, but trust me it is done out of Love. God bless.

      • oh….dru….dru….dru!

        You need to take a break. Both you and alienated.

        It is over 100 F where I am.

        About that on this page too.!

        Go, relax, and get a nice tall glass of ice tea, and just be alone with the Lord, and enjoy his presence.

  71. I think I will take up your offer. As I said, You ignore the specific questions which would “debunk” your theory and revert to your “greek” intellectualism which makes you great in your own mind. You yourself have mis judged my character with your comments above (dramatically). BTW I have admitted my errors to you in fact with regard to the rapture was one case, Or with regard to John in his epistle referencing his gospel with “in the beginning”. I can think of two other times for me personally on this site. But the one time I thought you had admitted your error at the top of this page, was in fact a smokescreen for your continued “empty talk”.
    I have no insecutity, for my security rests solely with God. Your accusations regarding my self-righteousness is totally unfounded in fact. My Goal has been to correct you, and make your faith stronger, but in fact you have viewed it as an attack on you. This is indicative of self exaltation.

    Now I will ask you for a third time, did the thief who hung on the cross next to Christ have the Holy Spirit before the Apostles did?

    Regarding what has been said, I have forgiven all the personal attacks you have sent my way, as I was where you are at right now. I Understand how this feels like they are attacks on you personally, as you have alot of yourself tied into this with your “studies”, and your reputation at stake. As for me, I have no “reputation” or “authority” to lose. This is the only way I can “correct” people if they are in error. I know the intentions of my heart are in line with the Word of God, and we must rebuke unsound doctrine. Your “studies” have led to unsound doctrine, as I took the time to point out to you. One day, perhaps, you will thank me for this.

    As You know from my Email, I am just a struggling home builder with time on his hands. I have no formal training in theology or biblical studies, I was not even a particularly good student. I am basically a nobody, who has the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Most times when I am wrong, it is because it was my own thoughts and understandings interfere with the revalation of the HS. Typically, those are my aside comments which I blurt out. The HS is teaching me more and more each day to rely on him, and not my own understanding, But I as a human am prone to failure. But that is the wisdom of God, to reveal his truths in such a way as children can understand them better than the wise. For if study can lead you to the Kingdom, then the “least” of us could never attain it.

    All this being said, Righteous anger and correction is often mis interpreted as pride. So be it. I know what pride leads to, for I have been there. I have exalted my self and God knocked me down from there. For 20 years I have been silent on faith. This was my punishment if you will for putting myself on that pedestal. But He was always there for me to talk to and guide me in my studies. It has never been about me being right, It has always been about us getting it right. We are all part of one body, the body of Christ. If one member of the body gets a cut from satan’s attack, other parts must come and clean the wound and dress it. Sometimes we have to use alcohol to clean that wound, and it stings. For this, I ask for your forgiveness. Let me tell you one thing though, things get better after the pain subsides. And there is a Joy that surpasses all understanding when we are walking in his ways. Any doubt you may have of your salvation is reassured by His Love and prescence in your life. My intent has never been to throw you out, but to clean the dirt out of that wound and discard it. I will pray that you may understand this one day.

    May God bless you and keep you and let his light shine down upon you, That you may see the glory of his prescence.

  72. Mary Kay. You are up against those who have made up their minds that they “think” they can lose their salvation. They cannot. It is impossible. If one turns away from God, than one was never saved in the first place. He/she had a head knowledge of the word, but were not saved. If one is saved, it is a done deal. No more works can be attributed to that salvation. It was a free gift accepted by the one asking for God’s forgiveness and to become a child of God and a member of the Kingdom forever. It is as simple as that. End of story.

  73. Although I gave my life to Jesus Christ when I was 25 years old…I did not always live the life expected of me as a professing Christian. Churches will call it “backsliding” but what the Lord I believe calls it …is falling from His grace. As I began seeking him again several years ago and finally got on my knees and repented by the prompting of the Holy Spirit about a year ago..I firmly believe although I believed firmly in Jesus Christ I was one of those that would not have made it through the gates of Heaven. I realized exactly what scripture meant when it says the path is wide but the gates are narrow. God really does expect us to live as holy of a life as we humanly can. He knows we are not perfect but does expect us to live a life as sinless as we can.

  74. I think I’m lost. I’m unsure. And I’m afraid. Even before reading this article. Someone, please help me.

    • dear J

      There is a way to tell. Have you trusted in Jesus as your savior and redeemer? do you know what this means? Do you understand what sin is, recognized your sins, and repented of them. Have you turned away from your sins, and asked God to help you, and to have the holy spirit help you led a better life that is pleasing to God?

      • Marianne

        I came by here when researching about the end times and salvation. This article is like that slap on the face out of that stupor of, “It’s ok, we’re not perfect but God is merciful. Carry on.”

        Yes to many of your question and no towards the end. I’m too ashamed to even go back. Even if prayer is between us and God, I can’t help but feel pretentious. What’s my motive really?

        “Dear Lord…” I started. But is he dear to me? I want to be forgiven but I’m 27 now: How many times have I asked for the same thing?

        You know, M, it use to be a hope for me when I first read about Revelation and the coming of Christ. Now, it scares me.

        Before I can even think of the 7-years, I have to be sure of my salvation. After all, what use if I die for my “faith” but actually I was never in it in the first place?

  75. Maybe I should do just that…

    • J
      I am guessing you were saved at a young age, and your conversion was more of a confirmation of your parents beliefs? If this is so, then what you are feeling now is you making a genuine conviction to serve God. It Goes from being the faith of your parents to your own faith and walk with God. It is both a beautiful, and liberating time, but also a frightening and vulnerable time, where we learn to trust God fully for our salvation, not our works. I made a big mistake at that point in my life, where I began to lead where I would go, instead of allowing God to lead, which I am now understanding in my early 40’s fully. Take the time to pray for his guidance, and that he will show you his will for your life. And do not be afraid to go where he leads!! This does not negate your original conviction, but only makes it your own. A confirmation, so to speak
      God bless.

  76. Thank you, Marianne. Thank you, dru.

  77. Does anybody believe you can be saved forever? No human is without sin. Do you have to be resaved daily? Do you lose your salvation every time you sin? I believe you should repent daily as Paul said he did because we all sin daily. I believe when God saved me He knew I would not live a life without sin, yet He saved me anyway. I do not do as I wish six days a week and then go to church on Sunday. The Bible says there is only one unforgivable sin, blasphemy. That is denying God and not the third commandment.

    • dear BAR

      Re-read the above post.

      If one is saved to begin with, one will not live a life of sin, because the person will hate sin, and reject it.

      If one is a false convert, and never really repented, he is not saved anyhow and continues to sin, thinking he is justified and forgiven.

      The true saint may fail daily, but will always have a repentant heart over what he did, and will ask forgiveness over and over, and make an effort to NOT repeat what he did.

      So he does not have to be re-saved. he just needs to repent of any sins he made by human weakness.

      this is different from INTENTIONALLY sinning, and then having the arrogance to assume god will put up with him, or making up new rules that god should follow, so that he can be “off the hook.”

      Living in sin, ie fornication, is a good example. there are many “christians” who live together outside of marriage, and there are homosexuals who think they are christians. They are not sorry, and have no intention of changing their lifestyle. if they are not repentant, then they are not forgiven.

      Anyone who would deliberately hurt the Lord, crucifying him all over again, never loved him to begin with.

      Daily examination of conscience is really the only way the saint can stay close to God.

      Sins he commits that he has not repented of, but would have eventually, but still did not before he dies, he will have to account for them before the Lord after death.

      The Lord will judge all of us on our actions and lives. It should be our desire to come before him pure and holy, and not burdened down with sins we never repented of.

  78. Dear Pastor Butch Paugh, What are you going to reply to God when He asks you why you continued to teach the false doctrine of eternal hell? Bob

  79. Dear Marianne,

    Thank you so much for your e-mail. I really appreciate your writing to me.

    I assume you really want to know why. If you have some time I would love to share some facts from an honestly translated Bible because that is where the problem is… not having Bibles which are honestly translated.

    God has a plan for all of His creation. I would imagine that you would feel that an eternal hell to be a very abhorrent idea… but it is not what WE think is good or bad, right or wrong, it is what the Bible actuary says… what God Himself actually proclaims… which is what we must believe. What do you think?

    Let me know if you want to continue and let me know some things about yourself.

    I am eighty two years old and have been reading the Bible for the last seventy two years. Since I was 58 years old I have been reading many serious things about the Bible too. I have a BS in physics from Portland State University. I am, was, an instrument pilot. I have a hobby of ham radio and have talked to others around the world from my car.

    Hope to hear from you but take your time. These things need patience and concentration. Read John 3:27 and Eph 1:11.

    Blessings,

    Bob
    btodd2@earthlink.net

  80. The translated English word “blot” is an interesting word.
    Within the Tanakh it is derived from two (2) Hebrew words. That of “מָחָה”, transliterated as “machah” and “מְאוּם”, transliterated as “m’uwm ”.

    “Machah”, is defined as “to wipe, wipe out. to blot out, obliterate and exterminate”, and though it has been translated into English “to blot or put out, to destroy, abolish, wipe or wipe away” the negative context of the word can not be misunderstood.

    Machah, (Strong’s 4229), has been translated as the word “blot” in Exodus 32:32,33., Numbers 5:23., Deuteronomy 9:14., 25:19., 29:20., 2 Kings 14:27., Psalms 51:1, & 9., and Jeremiah 18:23.

    M’uwm, is defined as, “a blemish, spot or defect. a physical defect, or moral stain.”

    M’uwm, (Strong’s 3971), has been translated into, “blemish, spot and blot”. Many of the verses that the word has been translated into “blemish” can be utilized as being a foreshadowing of Yeshua in the necessity for Him to be morally without sin. (For after being scourged by the Romans He most certainly had physical defects.)
    Where “m’uwm” has been translated into the English “blot” is in Job 31:7., and Proverbs 9:7.

    The translated word “blot” only occurs once within the New Covenant text, and it is derived from the Greek “ἐξαλείφω”, transliterated as “exaleiphō”, Strong’s 1813.

    Exaleiphō is a verb that is defined as, “(1) to anoint or wash in every part. (1a) to besmear: i.e. cover with lime (to whitewash or plaster) or to Cover. (2) to wipe off, wipe away. (2a) to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out.”

    The word is utilized a total of five (5) times within New Covenant text. In Acts 3:19., “may be blotted out”. In Colossians 2:14., “Blotting out”. In Revelation 7:17., and 21:4. as “shall wipe away”, and last but not least, in Revelation 3:5.

    In Revelation 3:5. Yeshua is speaking to those believers that do “Overcome”.

    “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.”

    Based upon the definitions then, “he that overcomes, will be clothed in white raiment; and “will be covered” from having his name being “blotted” from the book of life.

    Conversely then, based upon the definitions, “he that does NOT overcome, will NOT be clothed in white raiment; will NOT be covered, but will rather, have his name “wiped out and obliterated” from the book of life.

    Logically, if there is a “judgement”, there must be criteria for that judgement. An individual must meet certain criteria to either pass or fail that judgement.

    Therefore it is my opinion based upon this and that of other New Covenant text, that Salvation is conditional to “obedience and overcoming”, just as the “blessings” were for Israel as described within Deuteronomy 28.

    If “being saved” or our “justification in the Blood of Yeshua” was all that was necessary period, what would be the point of all of the other teachings that we have been provided within all of the epistle’s? We clearly have to “overcome” and we clearly have to be “obedient”.

    If not, then why doesn’t Matthew 20:16., and 22:14., express the following;
    “Many are called and all are chosen” instead of what Yeshua says, “Many are called, but few are chosen”?

    Everything is “conditional”.
    Even satan is conditional.
    “And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, “if” thou wilt fall down and worship me.” Matthew 4:9.

    And if God and Yeshua are to “judge” each and every one of us, then that Judgement must have conditional criteria.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua our Everything.
    May He help each and every one of us become the overcomers that He died for us to be.
    Amen.

    • Buck,
      Not to be a stickler, but Matthew 20:15-16 states: “15 Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’[b] 16 So the last will be first, and the first last.”

      You may want to check your reference there.

      • Hi Dru,

        King James Version, Matthew 20:16.;
        “So the last shall be first, and the first last: “for many be called, but few chosen”.”

        I’m not sure as to what version you use?

  81. Hell is a hoax. K7VHQ San Jacinto

  82. […] Once Saved, Always Saved ? […]

  83. I believe the words of the Lord’s Prayer ,,,,,, Our Father. A good father would not accept his son or daughter going astray . Also you must rightly divide the word of a God, all passages in the bible are not meant for the body of Christ .I believe a great example of salvation is the Passover . all man had to do is put the blood of the lamb on the door post that’s it. I cannot believe this long thread on once saved always saved no wonder the church is in such bad shape. Once the Holy Spirit enters my body nothing can pull it out. Salvation is a miracle! Praise The Lord.

  84. MOST PEOPLE ON THIS SITE ARE DEAD WRONG. GOD WILL NEVER TRASH ANY OF HIS CREATION. GOOGLE “EONSLINK00” AND SEE WHAT HIS PLAN IS. IT IS SAD THAT PEOPLE HAVE INCORRECT IDEAS BUT IT IS CAUSED BY EVIL MEN WHO COMPILED THE KING JAMES VERSION. ROBERT WHEELER TODD

    • robert

      creation trashes itself, God does not do it.

      we have a choice to either obey God, or disobey….

      if we choose against God, he chooses against us.

      simple

  85. Robert you are right on.
    The majority or religion are “carnal minded” and cannot see the Spirit of Gods understanding. And they will never manifest into the “Image of Jesus Christ or His Word. The manifestation of never understanding the Word show’s they never where “Real seed” to begin with. Jesus Christ is the “Author and Finisher of our faith” which is really Jesus Christ faith who revealed to us the we were lost and forsaken yet He took us in as His Children for Eternity by faith. Jesus said He ” will never leave us or forsake us”. Sin is doubt. And everyone on this forum sins = doubted the Word of God. Including myself. The “New Birth” is all about Love and Striving for the Image of Jesus Christ Character, which is Truth that “Marks you and sets you free from the dogma’s of satan’s seed of religion.

    If you do not thirst and seek his will, and have never wanted that then you would be a Judas. Judas had another god called money. Jesus knew he was a devil to begin with. In other words Judas was satan’s carnal seed period. Jesus called them tares and chaff as well. Most all of religion is just satan’s seed manifesting sooner or later. By their ungodliness which is a lack of hearing Gods Revelation for you. He wants you to know His will. If we turn that revelation = “Gods understanding and knowledge by the Spirit of God” and we turn it down you will never be Born Again. God will not take in “bastard children”.

    Paul said in his day to be “Born again” was a mystery to Israel Col. 1:27. This forum with others cannot except spiritual teachings and many do not understand the New Birth period as Israel was not able to understand. Its to hard on their baby minds. If you have really become a Brand New Creation of God’s seed then the “Lord promised He will never leave you even if you sinned.” Cause he knows your heart and He knows your beginning from the end. When He begot you as a Son of His. In Christ eyes He sees your faith. And you are perfect and made Whole, and will always have Eternal life abiding in you. “Jesus said He will Lose none of His”.

    Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are “sealed” unto the day of redemption. Sealed means (marked, branded as God’s own, secured for the day of redemption. Amplified bible – also satans seed is already marked and branded as well.

    If you are Gods Seed you will never perish. And if you back slide you will be chastened by the Lord till you get it right with Him. Is this not what natural Parents do that love their children. Then what about Gods Eternal love for His Children. This is the correct doctrine whether people believe it our not.

    Once you have been accepted into the beloved of God. You destiny in Heaven is sealed. Actually we are “already partakers of Heavenly things” now and forever.

    In Love and Rebuke for Gods chosen. Jesus said to not faint at the rebuking of Gods Holy Word.
    PS Robert – The King James Bible stood the test for hundreds and thousands of people in many revivals for the last 5 hundred years or so.
    You would be wrong to count it out period.

    Palisade

  86. I believe the beloved disciple summarized it best. The one who wrote Revelations: 1 John Ch: 3.
    7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
    There are babies who must learn as Paul explained- Romans 7-
    14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
    But let none of us forget “our righteousness is but rags”, and where we came from, thru his GRACE. Grace is the GOSPEL TO ALL WHO HAVE SINNED and fell short of the Glory of God “Lest any man should boast”. Without our savior and his sacrifice, we would be doomed. Don’t drive the spike further in his hands. Give praise and Glory to his HOLY NAME JESUS, or for those bound up in it YESHUA (or middle eastern).
    SHALOM.
    Brother Stephen
    P.S, Marianne, this is a great website, I have been in it 3 days. I read your testimony, outstanding. Many anointed people here who seek the living G-d. I am honored to participate. Thank you for following the leading of the Holy Spirit and establishing it.

  87. To overcome till the end we must stay under His blood covered tallit. This may sound gross but after He took our punishment, our curse (alah in Hebrew) upon Him, His tallit was symbolically covered in His blood. Yah sees us through His blood, which is our only covering. We can’t disdain His teachings or Torah and think for a moment that we can have fellowship with Him on OUR terms and not His. He established the rules long ago, we either follow Him on His terms or follow the fallen archangel of light, there is no in between, no lukewarm no compromise. You either belong to the light or to the darkness, is up to us to choose. Once we go to the brazen altar we can continue to follow Him and go on to the holy of holies or we can leave the tabernacle altogether. If a person chooses to leave and the groom comes during that time is like the foolish virgins who did not have enough oil in their lamps… Let’s choose life; choose wisely and really follow Him in the manner He showed us how.

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