Jesus is Coming Soon

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I have seen Jesus in a dream. 

He looked a lot like this. 

He is coming soon to get me.    Smile

Here is the story of the picture:

http://openingthefloodgatesofmercy.blogspot.com/2012/06/about-miraculous-picture-of-jesus-i.html?spref=fb

 


406 Responses to “Jesus is Coming Soon”

  1. […] here for […]

  2. I do not doubt that there are devout Catholics who believe in Christ and are filled with the Holy Spirit more than I am.

    What I have trouble with are those who think a dead fully human man, or women can see them and make intersession for them in front of G-d. I will refrain from arguing the Communion does not actually turn into the actual body of Christ and the wine into real blood.

    Now, I hope Christ comes soon too. But, it will be when G-d the father allows it, not because we want it. I do hope it is soon due to all the suffering in the world.

    The Universal Church is so full of paganism, I just don’t know what to think about all those who believe what they are told instead of reading the Bible for themselves.

    My Grandmother was more devout than most of the Popes. Yet, she is dead and can not see me. That would be ancestor worship just like praying to dead Saints. Paganism!

  3. http://www.theacademy.org.au/training/neville/Atonement2014.pdf

    The Following Is An Encounter I Had On
    The Day Of Atonement Yon Kippur 2014
    Neville Johnson

  4. Todd White know who you are in Christ



  5. I always hold pictures of Jesus at arm’s length; the same goes for visitations, especially if the people flocking around such things aren’t interested in the foundational teachings of Jesus: “Deny yourself; take up your cross; follow Me.”

    Also, when little children have these visitations, I become even more ‘suspicious’, because children are more attuned to the spirit realm than adults are which means they are open to both good and bad spirits. Evil spirits have no sense of propriety or sympathy and will visit children if they can in order to deceive or torment them. The Jews sought from Jesus a sign, and the Greeks sought from Him wisdom. Christians today are often seeking one or the other or both. Why don’t we just start all over at the beginning and let Jesus be the One to add the signs if He wants to?

  6. Some argue that Jesus never strays far from His Covenant. And He comes and goes as He pleases. As such, it can be argued that He never really left.

  7. The photo is quite contagious – His smile, and His eyes. As a child I used to go on walks with Him in dreams, before I had any notion that it was not normal or common.

    He is there (here) to anyone who shall believe and trust in Him. As anxious as we may become for Him to return, in fact, yes, He has never left us.

  8. So now Jesus is creating graven images of himself for us to pray to? He must have turned catholic and forgot about His Father’s 2nd commandment.
    Sorry but if you need a magic camera or a 2 year old to tell you that Jesus is soon returning then you are a poor student of bible prophecy.
    The faithful already know the hour of His return is near and are hopefully prepared. To everyone else these events are not enough to make them true believers so they are really of no value to anyone.
    And as for the preparation for the Second Coming, one of the things we must do is to “come out of her!” :
    Rev 18:4
    And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
    The “her” here is the apostate churches (primarily the Catholic church) that will institute the mark of the beast. If, as I believe, the mark is Sunday worship (or disobeying the 4th commandment) then virtually the whole (Christian) world will follow the beast and receive the plagues.
    If Jesus wanted to send any message it would be to get out of the Catholic church or any church that does not keep the true Sabbath. Appearing to babies would be a huge waste of His time and sending photos to devout Catholics would not encourage them to “come out of her.”
    So as far as I’m concerned, all these dreams, visions and magic photos should be completely ignored. Putting any faith in them is not going to get you closer to God. Stick with the bible. It is all anyone needs to know Jesus is coming and how to prepare for it.
    Bless

    • jim

      sorry you have such a negative attitude.

      the point was that the image that was shared with me looked like the Jesus I saw in my dream

      I am not an artist, or I would have drawn the jesus I actually saw

      and I am excited he is coming soon, and yes we all know in our hearts it is true, so why are you so against saying so?

    • “Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.”

      Greetings Jim!

      I know what you believe Jim and as I have previously made known, I do not ascribe to it. Don’t you think it obvious that of all the rebukes to the churches in Revelation, that not one is in regards to what day the Sabbath is kept on? In fact, the word Sabbath or Sabbaths does not even appear in the book of Revelation. You’d think that if something that was so detrimental to obtaining salvation, that it would mentioned over an over again. Truth be told, keeping the Sabbath as a requirement for salvation would be considered to be by ones own efforts and therefore, performing a work in order to obtain salvation. Whenever another requirement is brought in along side of the shed blood of Christ, it is in essence saying that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient. Salvation is found only in having faith in Christ’s sacrifice apart from works, for he alone purchased men for God with his righteous blood. This is demonstrated over and over again in the book of Galatians, Romans, Hebrews and other NT books. Regarding this subject Paul, through the Holy Spirit says,

      “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.” (Rom.14:5)

      As I have communicated so many times here on behalf of God’s word, we are dead to the law of Moses. We are under a different covenant, which has been established by the shed blood of Christ. His sacrifice is completely sufficient and we should be following him, being lead by the Spirit and not by the keeping of holy days, Sabbaths, abstaining from foods, the observance of feasts and the like in order to obtain salvation.

      Regarding the mark of the beast, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to apply a symbolic meaning to It to infer that anyone who observes the Sabbath on Sunday has received the mark of the beast. However, the Scripture does show that it will be a literal mark that will go on the hand or the forehead, just as Scripture states and that no one will be able to buy or sell (credit or debit) unless they have it. The reason for this is because, cash, checks, credit and debit cards will be made obsolete during the beasts reign leaving only that mark to allow one to electronically credit and debit ones bank account, ergo, “He forces all”. Regarding this, the burden of proof is on you and those who believe the same, as we already have people around the world who are being implanted with the RFID computer chips in the web of skin between the index finger and the thumb and here is a video of this process, which is a BBC news cast that aired just this last January:

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      The very fact that this is happening just as Scripture proclaims should be proof enough.

      • Hashem said that the Sabbath is FOREVER and is a SIGN between Him and us. He also said about His Feast days that they are a LASTING ORDINANCE. And when Yeshua returns EVERYONE will be required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, Zech 14.

        Which part of FOREVER and LASTING ORDINANCE and HE CHANGES NOT are you not grasping?

        • As Scripture states in the NT, if you trust in those things as requirement for salvation, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

          “Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”i meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

          Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.”

          So, I will ask you the same question, which part of the above didn ‘t you understand? We are not under the covenant of the law of Moses, but unfortunately, just as Israel stumbled over the stumbing stone, so do Gentiles even to this very day. We are under a new covenant and we cannot obtain eternal life by keeping any of the works of the law. If Jesus was to ask you why you should be allowed to enter into the kingdom of God, your only answer should be the because Jesus shed his blood for me. By trusting in Sabbath’s, keeping holy days, abstaining from foods, and the like, as a means of salvation, it will have the opposite affect keeping you out of the kingdom of God.

          ===================================
          “So Joshua called together the twelve men he had appointed from the Israelites, one from each tribe, and said to them, “Go over before the ark of the Lord your God into the middle of the Jordan. Each of you is to take up a stone on his shoulder, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites, to serve as a sign among you. In the future, when your children ask you, ‘What do these stones mean?’ tell them that the flow of the Jordan was cut off before the ark of the covenant of the Lord. When it crossed the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan were cut off.

          These stones are to be a memorial to the people of Israel forever.”

          So the Israelites did as Joshua commanded them. They took twelve stones from the middle of the Jordan, according to the number of the tribes of the Israelites, as the Lord had told Joshua; and they carried them over with them to their camp, where they put them down. 9Joshua set up the twelve stones that had beena in the middle of the Jordan at the spot where the priests who carried the ark of the covenant had stood. And they are there to this day.

          ==============================================

          So, in the Scripture above, those stones that came from the Jordan where to be a memorial to the people of Israel FOREVER! Yet, you will not find those stones nor anyone in Israel who could show them to you. What happened to forever? Sometimes the words translated from Hebrew into english don’t convey the same meaning or they may contain multiple meanings. My point is that, it was said that those stones were to be a memorial forever, yet, no one could show them to you. Therefore, the word translated “Forever” must have other means, else we should know exactly where there are.

          The question regarding whether or not the church is required to keep the law of Moses was answered by the counsel in Israel, including Paul and Barnabas.

          Continued

          • (Continued)

            Here is the question Lyndsey:

            “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

            Here’s the answer:

            “The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

            Remember Lyndsey, if you put yourself under the law to obey it, then you must keep the whole law, not some of it. And if you break it in one place, then you’ve broken the entire law. Jesus came and met the righteous requirements of the law completely and fully, freeing us from it.

            Here is another example from Scripture:

            “Dear brothers and sisters,i here’s an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or amend an irrevocable agreement, so it is in this case. God gave the promises to Abraham and his child. And notice that the Scripture doesn’t say “to his children,” as if it meant many descendants. Rather, it says “to his child”—and that, of course, means Christ. This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise. For if the inheritance could be received by keeping the law, then it would not be the result of accepting God’s promise. But God graciously gave it to Abraham as a promise.

            Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.

            Those who belong to Christ are children of the promise, not children of the law.

            Below is another example:

            • people do not need to be shown their sin anymore?

              maybe that is why gays are taking over the church

              obedience is not required anymore after salvation

          • no one here believes works is necessary for salvation

    • You are on target!

  9. I do not think you are correct the mark is Sunday worship.

    The mark is given after an oath of worship to the Beast the false prophet does in it’s name. The Bible reads every man both small and great. It also reads inside the Holy of Holies the abomination he shall make. The rebuilt Temple.

    I think you are off on this one Jim. But, even if you are correct, the Pope does not scare me.

    Peace.

    • @ Leatherneck

      For whatever it’s worth,

      Some commentary claim that strict interpretation of “mark” should be “idol”

      On the other point, commentary also states that it was understood that wherever the Ark of the Covenant was located, was intended to mean that the location was the holy of holies.

      • Hi Dan,

        Actually, the strict interpretation for the “Mark” is as follows:

        xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

        5480 /xáragma (“brand-mark”) was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became “the identification-marker” (like with an owner’s unique “brand-mark”).

        Therefore, since is said to go either on/in the hand or the forehead, then it would not be an idol as in a graven image. From John’s time frame, he had nothing to describe what he was seeing in the future and therefore the word “charagma” is the closest that he could come to in describing this future device that would be implanted in the hand or forehead. John could not say,

        “He causes all both rich and poor, free and slave, great and small to receive a computer chip that will be implanted in the right hand or the forehead which will allow the inhabitants of the earth to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts.”

        We have to study the Scripture and apply it what is already happening on the earth. See the video regarding the RFID chip implantation in the post to Jim.

  10. I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble, but the picture is Robert Powell as Jesus – he played the Lord in Franco Zeffirelli’s “Jesus of Nazareth”. Surely, many of you have seen this excellent film, made in 1977 and broadcast on network TV as a mini-series….I don’t necessarily recognize the shot from any scene in the movie, it may be a promo shot or something, but it’s definitely Robert Powell…

    http://img5.bdbphotos.com/images/orig/w/7/w7io01s0m0vqs1mi.jpg?djet1p5k

    • joe

      that is cool

      they picked the right actor to portray him…

      anyhow, I think it is a good representation of what I saw in my dream

      except in my dream, his hair was shorter and his hair was darker. and the face was a tiny bit different

  11. What about lee stoneking addressing the united nations, I believe that fulfills the prophecy of matthew 24:14, next will be the signing of the peace treaty for Isreal. People need to wake up he is coming soon and if people don’t know how, acts 2:38

    • carol

      I think jesus meant to spread the gospel to the nations, not just to their representatives.

      however, I think his address was significant in that it was allowed.

  12. With all the pictures of Jesus one has seen since their childhood, would not the mind organise these to one plain universal image?

    Its always great to hear no matter how often that Jesus is soon to return.

    I think Jesus’ looks are not as relevant as the message he’d be conveying in such a dream.

    Besides, the picture is pretty plain. If you remove the shroud and dress, would it still look like Jesus?

    Also I presume he would have white hair, being the ancient of days, or his son…. Besides, the shroud is meant to conceal the facial recognition lest little children fall into idolatry.

    • john

      I really do not know, but the point here is that the picture I was sent looked like the Jesus i saw in my dream.

      although it was not identical….

      what impressed me was the beautiful smile..jesus smiled at me in my dream…

      and jesus DOES have a beautiful smile, one that makes you forget all your troubles

  13. Most artistic portrayals of Jesus are of a Caucasian male with blue eyes and long, light-brown hair. It is important to understand that this common portrayal is likely not at all what Jesus looked like. Jesus was ethnically Jewish, so He likely had light to dark brown skin, brown eyes, and dark brown or black hair. Jesus would have looked like a typical Middle Easterner. Isaiah described Jesus, the coming Messiah as looking like an ordinary man and that there nothing special in His appearance that would make Him stand out. Isaiah described Him in 53: 2 “he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.”

    I totally agree with Jim Giordano when he said “So now Jesus is creating graven images of himself for us to pray to? He must have turned catholic and forgot about His Father’s 2nd commandment”. We have to be very careful and don’t let ourselves be deceived by graven images or false descriptions of Our Lord. Also, we should not be dogmatic about His appearance because it doesn’t really matter.

    • martin

      this was just a post about a dream about jesus…the picture displayed just happened to look like jesus did in my dream

      • Then your “dream” was NOT from God.

        • my dream was from god….just because there is some resemblance between the actor and jesus in the dream, does not devalue the dream.

          both are male, long hair with beard….

          but I SAID that there was a similarity between them, not that the two were identical

          besides, this is NOT a picture of robert powell….

          there is a similarity, but it is not him.

          robert has more tight features, and intense eyes, and a narrower face.

          this image is softer, and a fuller face

          I have the 1977 movie on video….he did not smile like that during the movie….he was serious in the movie

      • in some ways…..

        my jesus was beautiful, for a man

  14. I believe you Sister Marianne It is about time. So I want everyone to go home and hug their families and spend a bunch of time with them and don’t fight because just as Sister Marianne has said she seen Jesus, well I saw him to but it was not a dream it was a vision of the future it was 3 days ago, he said do not be afraid little one because I am coming back sooner than you think. I am so excited to tell you that our savior is coming back to save us the,sad news is we have to go through the Great Tribulation to get Victory, but it will all be worth it.And I have sights on the Anti-Christ he will do everything in his power to stay President we have to impeach him or he will make us into a New World Order he has gone on record and surrender your rights to an all powerful sovereign (him)( a.k.a. Barack Hussein Obama) . America as we know it will be no more, Obama has gone on record many times saying we are not a Christian nation. We need to do everything in our power to expose him! ~Sister Emily

    • hi sister emily

      I wish I could have open visions, but I seem to be so busy during the day that the only way god can get my attention is when i am asleep. 🙂

      I have the same views you have about the tribulation and the AC.

      it is too late for this country, so the saints need to prepare the best they can for hard times, and God’s provision.

    • (Continued)

      Here example Lydnsey:

      “Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says? The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife.The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise.

      These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law. But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother. As Isaiah said,

      “Rejoice, O childless woman,

      you who have never given birth!

      Break into a joyful shout,

      you who have never been in labor!

      For the desolate woman now has more children

      than the woman who lives with her husband!”i

      And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise, just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law, just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit.

      But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman.

      ================================

      “Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

      Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

      I pray that the Holy Spirit will confrim the truth to you regarding salvation by grace through faith opposed to being obedient to the Law of Moses by your own efforts.

      • in slavery to “thou shall not kill?”

      • Don,

        Isaiah 46:10

        New International Version

        I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.’

        King James Version (KJV)

        O Father Yahuwah, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the “Gentiles” shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

        Matthew 5:19 Translations
        King James Version (KJV)

        Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

        How is it Don you know these things, but ignore them. You rely on “your Gentile understanding” to interpret “PAUL’S” letters. You take the letters of Paul at the end and throw out even the Words of Messiah Yahshua to make your points. I believe you mean well, but you are ill informed on this subject. You read the same thing over and over again thinking you have it all down. You don’t, along with the rest of us. But you need to go back to the “beginning” and get some understanding or will you come up short at the “end”!

        Shalom

  15. Never knew about her I relate to her life I’m glad to know why it happens only God. Jesus.Holy. Spirit I’m Totally so gratefully of you Mam. You’re so blessed by God, wish and deeply Hope you please you keep being Blessed we need your message

  16. This question is random, but I don’t know how to just address it to you without clicking on one of your posts:

    The Beginning Stages http://www.arewelivinginthelastdays.com/article/treaty/treaty.htm
    —–
    Ezekiel 28:24-26
    24 No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. 25 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. 26 They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God.

    ——-

    If this article and scripture are correct, Israel will know a period of calm and safety (before the end). Enough calm to plant vineyards and build houses.

    Before the breaking of the 7th seal, there is silence in heaven for 1/2 hour.

    In the “1 day is like a 1000 years” formula… 1/2 hour breaks down to about 20 years.

    Do you suppose that “1/2 hour” is a 20-year calm and secure time after the calamities of the 1st 6 seals ….

    Just a thought.

    • WW

      I really do not know the answer to that.

      it is an interesting concept that the 1/2 hour represents 20 years.

      the next question is, why does god need 20 years, and what is he doing?

      so if he is using 20 years to build up Israel before the wrath (trumpets and vials), or using this time to relocate jews to a place of safety, then maybe there is some truth to it

    • Greetings Liberator,

      Regarding Ezk. 28:24-26, this is most likely speaking of the state of Israel (and the world) during the millennial period, that is, they will be at peace because human government will have been dismantled via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and Christ will be ruling from the present city of Jerusalem on the throne of David. At the onset of the millennium the nations will:

      “They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.”

      That being said, Israel will not experience peace until that ruler makes his covenant for that last seven year period. However, it will be a false peace which will lead up to his setting up of the abomination in the holy place in the middle of the seven, which causes the desolation of Jerusalem where the woman (Israel) will be cared for out in the desert for that time, times and a half a time, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period with Christ returning at the end.

      Regarding the half an hour of silence in heaven, I believe that it is all that is, a literal half an hour of silence. Most likely in preparation for the trumpets which follow. And regarding “a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day,” this saying (and that’s all that it was) is meant to show that God is not affect by time as we are. That being said, this was never meant to be a formula to be used to figure out when prophecies would take place by taking a number and dividing into a thousand.

  17. The 1/2 hour silence is right after the sealing of the 144,000 Jews. Perhaps 20 years is for the purpose of reaching one last generation of Jews for Jesus. Otherwise, what would be the point of sealing the Jews at the end if they are not needed to witness to their brothers a final time.

    The 7th seal is also after the Enormous Crowd (those who have come safely through the terrible persecution) is seen in Heaven (possible rapture of the Church)…which makes it all the more important for their to be witnesses left on earth during Tribulation.

    Also, the 1/2 hour silence comes after a terrible earthquake and some kind of nuclear (?) detonation… Perhaps the world will need that time to recoup its stupidity to carry on.

    Israel has NOT seen the prosperity promised in the Ezekiel passage AND Israel is promised peace and security to rebuild WHILE the Lord is continuing to punish the surrounding nations (which could be the 4 angels holding back the winds while 144,000 are being sealed)

    Don’t know either, just a thought and am interested because you seem to have such good insight.

    • Hello again Liberator,

      Regarding the “Enormous crowd” which is that great number of white robbed saints which no man can count. If you will notice in Rev.7:13, one of the elders asks John regarding them,

      ” “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

      The very fact that the elder is asking this question of John shows that these in white robs are not the church. As further proof, John responds with:

      “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

      That John did not know who this group was also demonstrates that they are not the church. The elder gives us the answer as to who they are when he responds to John:

      ““These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

      These are those who will become believers in Christ after the church as been removed from the earth. Because they will have not believed prior to the Lord’s descending to gather us, these GTS will be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the beast, his image, his mark and the false prophet. This is why we see the word “Ekklesia” translated “church” used from chapter 1 thru the very end of chapter 3 and then the word is never seen again until Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative. From Rev.5:8 on believers are referred to as “Hagios” translated “Saints” but never as the church and this because the church will have already been removed. The GTS will most likely be made up of those who professed Christ, but were living according to the sinful nature, as well as people who will have heard the gospel, but never received Christ, etc. That being said, the seals, trumpets and bowls are not solely for punishment, but their purpose is also to get people to repent and glorify God (See Rev.9:20-21, 16:8-11,21). Also, we who are true believers in Christ cannot go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and that because

      “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

  18. http://z3news.com/w/

    a lot of info

  19. http://mbwbh.blogspot.com/2014/08/moses-came-to-sadhu-sundar-selvaraj.html

  20. Jesus never left. It depends upon how you “look” at it

  21. Jesus was taken up to sit at the right hand of G-d the Father. The Holy Spirit descended on Pentecost.

    G-d will send Christ back soon to rule this ugly mean world. He can hear our prayers and the Holy Ghost can guide us.

  22. Today is Pentecost. !!!

  23. Mary this picture is beautiful I’ve come back to my Great Catholic faith, all sorts of things have happened to me I have a better understanding of them It’s as if I’m a new me. The picture you post is beautiful to he told me threw his smile he’s telling everything will be allright.
    Thank You, Blessings
    Patricia

  24. The Little horn
    Daniel 7 – #07: The Little Horn and 2 Thessalonians 1
    Morning Musings: The little horn of Daniel 7 persecutes the saints and is destroyed at the coming of the Son of Man. In 2 Thessalonians, Paul wrote to the sa…youtube.com 7:02 3 years ago

    I would do alot of good to see a few check this 7 minute film out.
    Palisade. God bless

  25. That was just a part of the link to the 7 minute message. That’s it.

    ty

  26. Jesus is already here. We just don’t “see” Him. Jesus never strays far from His Covenant, and as such, has always been very close.

    The ancients understood dimensions like we do today. It’s thought that Jesus had access to 9 or 11 dimensions while He was on earth. These dimensions are available to the righteous, but for the asking.

    These “dimensions” were available to the prohets, and they are available to anyone who understands righteousness instead of BS

    Dan

  27. The “little horn” is the Pope, who blasphemes. There is no mistake on this.

    • Greetings Dan,

      The “Little Horn” is the first beast who comes up out of the sea in Revelation 13 and the second beast who comes up from the earth is the false prophet who I believe will be one of the coming popes. The false prophet/pope will be the one who will be performing the satanic miracles, signs and wonders on behalf of the first beast and that to give him give him credibility as one who will be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God. The beasts receiving of that fatal wound is also part of the deception along with the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will perform.

  28. To WW Liberatore and all. You got me to thinking on the Silence.

    HALF HOUR OF SILENCE –
    Like Passover “Sit still” get ready – its end time

    Revelation 8 opens with a “half hour of silence” in which an angel lights incense at the Temple altar. Did Josephus record the earthly mirror of this event when he mentions a miraculous “half hour of light” at the Temple altar in A.D. 66 just before the Jewish revolt? Shortly thereafter the seven trumpet plagues began to unfold. In Revelation 8:7 blood rained on the earth and much of the land was burned. During the Jewish War, the Romans burned much of Israel as part of Rome’s scorched earth policy. Meanwhile it rained blood in Italy such that rivers of blood flowed throughout the land according to Cassius Dio.

    Josephus also mentions a STAR that circled for a year at the start of the Jewish revolt. Was this Wormwood of Revelation 8:11? Then in Revelation 8:8-9 a mountain or city is thrown into the sea. The sea then turns to blood and the creatures in the sea die and the ships are destroyed. This prediction was fulfilled when the Romans attacked two cities along the Galilean coast. Many of the people of these two cities were killed at sea and their ships destroyed leaving the sea “bloody a long way” . Also did not Israel have to flee to the Sea = worldly nations. Revelation 8 ends with an eagle proclaiming the following warning in v. 13: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth!” In his account of the Jewish War, the Jewish historian Josephus records a disembodied voice echoing the above warning with the words, “Woe! Woe to Jerusalem!”

    Like Passover “Sit still” be ready to move out- Silence in heaven means – it’s the end time for all persecutors that are against Jesus Bride. In Moses day Egypt was no more a threat after the red sea. But look what happened to Egypt’s economy and war machine. Praise God.

    Types and shadow’s of the 7 seals started in the O.T.
    The 1st Seal that had to be opened was. Israel was deceived and in Bondage by the anti-christ Of Egypt the snake -satan of that day. = 1st. Seal over but then the second seal and then the 3rd. Seal to 7th. seal. All the way till Israel Conquered all the world and was at peace for 40 years under the reign of Solomon the Golden age is what they called it. The Shadow of the O.T Millennium.

    Every star in the N.T of the 7 church’s in Revelation was a AGE = World that came to their end. BUT all seven ages had a STAR of LIGHT through the gifts of men Eph. 4 – Apostles, Prophets, Teachers, Evangelist, Pastors.
    Example – Paul was the first STAR and he had the Revelation of that 1st church age of Israel. Then it disappeared and another age come up with another STAR.= 5 fold ministry of truth for their age. And the whole 5 fold ministry was in unity.

    The first 4 seals are man’s doing that lead them to the 4th. Seal of death, hell and the grave. The last 3 Seals is God doing to those that persecuted the Church and its all Spiritual. Joshua and the Prophets conquered the world of their AGE. Jesus comes as a thief in the night. Moses was a thief in the night to Egypt – hello. Their will come a day soon. When many will loose their faith if Israel the Nation is overtaken and destroyed. I’m not saying that as an absolute. But I am saying that will end the controversy of the Second coming of all the denominations raptures and periods of time elements that so many millions rely on for escape. It has been prophesied that the Lord will take away all the 2nd. coming advents away. Many Christians will loose their minds. Just as in Israels war. That John talked about in Revelation. Most think its all future.
    Palisade

    • revelation seems to have many levels of meaning….

    • Hi Beacon737,

      I personally believe that the first seal has yet to be opened. The seals, trumpets and bowls are God’s wrath that will be poured out upon the earth. They are meant to fulfill the following:

      “I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”
      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

      declares the Lord.

      “I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”

      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

      =================================

      And Isaiah says ….

      =================================

      I will make people scarcer than pure gold,

      more rare than the gold of Ophir.

      =================================

      The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is the detailed account of the day of the Lord, God’s wrath. These judgments will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle human government making way for Christ’s millennial kingdom. We have not begun to see the destruction of these things, but will begin to take place after the Lord has gathered all believers, dead and living from the earth.

  29. Yehoshua is already living on earth. He lives alone and is under punishment. He teached that he was G-d ( Jon 1:18) but he is not. He is born in his worst enemies family. A Turkish family with hebrew blood. NT is written to him in this life. If you do not beleive me, then please explain Luke 14:26 for me. He is living alone and want a wife. Any single woman out there around 40 ???

    • Defender,

      Luke 14:26

      ““If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.”

      In other words Jesus is saying that he must be first in our hearts and in our lives above our mother, father, wife, children and Jesus must be first even before our own lives. Therefore, he is not telling us to hate our mother and father becuase that would go against God’s word which says we should Love and honor our father and mother.

      =========================================

      You said:
      “He teached that he was G-d ( Jon 1:18) but he is not.”

      Scripture says:
      “Therefore the Lord himself will give youc a sign: The virgind will conceive and give birth to a son, ande will call him Immanuel.”

      Subsequently, “Immanuel” which is another designation for Jesus, means “God with us.” God the Father himself called Jesus God:

      “But about the Son the Father says,

      “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
      by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

      Thomas, one of Jesus disciples recognized Jesus as God:

      “A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

      Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

      Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

      The Pharasees and religious leaders recognized that Jesus was claiming himself to be God:

      Jesus said: “I and the Father are one.”

      “Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

      “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

      Consequently, anyone who doesn’t believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, then they have no salvation.

      ============================================

      You said:
      “He is living alone and want a wife. Any single woman out there around 40 ???”

      Jesus was crucified, buried and rose again on the third day. Later he ascended to the right hand of God the Father where he makes intercession for all believers. Therefore, Jesus is not here and he did not come here to get married, but to live a perfect life in the flesh and to pay the penalty for our sins.

  30. Dm52

    Regarding Luke 14:26

    G-d is talking trough Luke and speaking with Yehoshua in future from then and the time is now. It says hate and you say it does not mean that. It is kike discussion with muslims. When you tell them one of your laws says you can marry a child they say it does not really mean that. Fact is fact.

    Regarding Immanuel

    It does not say virgin. The verse says young woman. Alma means young woman. And G-d with us means G-s sometimes speak through Yehoshua.

    Regarding Thomas and the rest. I already told you that Yehoshua teached wrong. That is why they recognised him as G-d.

    First of all OT says G-d is one and Yehoshua said there is one that is greater than him. What Yehoshua says is that he is a jr or semi G-d.

    NT says G-d is without sin. Humans can not be without sin. NT says Yehoshua spent time with prostitutes. Yehoshua is not God.

    Yehoshua says in John 5:30 “I can not do anything by myself”
    G-d can do everything. G-d is almighty.

    In the genology in Luke 3:38. Adam is called G-ds son. And Yehoshua said I am G-ds son. In middle east everybody says Issa instead of Yehoshua which is the arabic name for Adam. G-d says in the girst chapter in ghe Bible. Let us make humans of our images. G-d said to someone in heaven ( Gabriel) that he is gonna create a human being not that he is gonns be a human. The father is G-d and the son is Adam and before in heaven Gabriel. It is not the same angel.

    Judaism is G-ds religion and Christianity is the sons religion. G-d teached that breaking the sabbsth shall be punished with death and Yehoshua broke the sabbath by picking ax on the sabbath.

    He is living alone in Sweden and he is under punishment.

    • DOTS-You and Jim G. Need to get together. The two of you have a lot to talk about!

    • Defender,

      You said:
      “It says hate and you say it does not mean that”

      Rebut:
      The word hate there in Luke means to love someone or something less than someone or something else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another.

      (miséō) which centers in moral choice, elevating one value over another.]

      The word used here does not mean that you should hate your parents, for that would go against the other scripture which says to love your mother and father. If we as Christians are to love all people as ourselves, that would most certainly be true of our mother and father. Look at the meaning of the Greek word and stop using it in the specific English meaning. Think about it: If everyone hated there mother’s and father’s in the sense that you mean it, then everyone would hate everyone and that because everyone is a mother and father. That is just ridiculous!

      You said:
      “NT says G-d is without sin. Humans can not be without sin. NT says Yehoshua spent time with prostitutes. Yehoshua is not God.”

      Rebut:
      Jesus not only spent time with prostitutes, by with liars, thieves, murderers, adulterers and every other kind of sinners and that because he came to turn them from their sinful natures back to God. Just because Jesus spent time with sinners does not make him a sinner. On the contrary, he lived a perfect life and committed no sin. If he did commit sin (as you say) then the entire world would still be in their sins and that because Jesus couldn’t pay the price for sin on our behalf. Not only that, but if he was a sinner he could not have resurrected which would mean that neither could the dead be resurrected either and all of mankind would be lost.

      You said:
      “Judaism is G-ds religion and Christianity is the sons religion”

      Rebut:
      There is only one faith and it is not Judaism. No one will be saved by observing the law of Moses. Israel was required to keep the law, but without faith, the law could not save a person. It has always been salvation through faith, for Habakkuk says, “The righteous will live by faith.” Christianity is of both of the Father and the Son. Judaism cannot save anyone. At that time it had to be accompanied by faith.

      You said:
      “G-d teached that breaking the sabbsth shall be punished with death and Yehoshua broke the sabbath by picking ax on the sabbath.”

      Rebut:
      Jesus said: “the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath” and then he said, “I am the Lord of the Sabbath.” We are no longer under the Law of Moses but we are under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ who freed us from the law by meeting its righteous requirements as a man. Under this new covenant we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit and observing the law.

      If you believe that Jesus is a sinner then you yourself are separated from Christ and the Father.

    • Defender said:
      “It does not say virgin. The verse says young woman. Alma means young woman”

      Scripture says:
      ““How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

      The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you”

      This shows that the child was not the result of union between Joseph and Mary, but by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. Mary was a virgin.

      ===========================================
      All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

      When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
      ==========================================

      According to the Scripture above, it was by the power of God that Mary conceived while being a virgin, never knowing a man, but was found with child according to the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14 and confirmed here in Matt. 1:22-25. This is why Joseph wanted to quietly divorce her because he had no union with Mary, yet she was pregnant.

      You are blaspheming in saying these things. My advise for you is to repent of these things and ask for forgiveness.

    • To anyone interested,

      Regarding Defender’s quote regarding hating our mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, etc., the same Scripture is stated in Mt.10:37 but worded differently:

      ““Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. ”

      Here is the same verse in Luke 14:26 which Defender used:

      “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.”

      The word “Hate” translated in here in Lk.14:26 is from the word “Miseo” which means to “Love less”. To love someone or something less then someone or something else. To place greater value above someone or something else.

      • Dmcal52

        It is not the same word. Luke says hate, hyperbolically. Yehoshua is living on earth and is born in his enemies family and he did not know that he is G-ds son. And recently he became an Orthodox Christian and it was revealed to him that the NT is written to him in this life.
        G-d says leave and hate your family and live alone to test him. If he does not obey G-d will punish him and that is what G-d want to do because he teached trough his disciples that he was G-d. G-d does not care about people on earth. He has abondened the earths population more than 2000 years ago because Jews did not obey the law as G-d requires. G-d is concentrated on his son. Here is another verse written to him and him only in this life.

        http://bible.com/130/mat.24.48-51.ojb
        But if that wicked slave says in his heart, Adoni (My Master) is dragging his feet, and that slave begins to beat his fellow avadim (slaves), and he eats and drinks with the ones getting drunk, the Adon of that slave will come on a day which he does not expect and at an hour of which he does not have daas. And the Adon will cut in two that slave, and the slave’s portion he will put with the tzevuim (hypocrites). There will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

        When has G-d cut people into two that drinks and fights????

  31. Dan’

    “…, and behold, I am with you [all the days (perpetually, uniformly, and on every occasion), to the [very] close and consummation of the age. Amen (so let it be)” (Matthew 28:20, AMP).

    Blessings
    Psalm 33

  32. Dmcal52

    You are jumping from Isaiah to virgin mary. It is not the same girl. There was a famous Jew called Immanuel after Isaiah wrote the propheciy that was important for Jews. May Christians try to put ghis verses together.It clearly says ghe boys name will be Immanuel. My former name means big descendent and with my own will I can say that Isaiah referes to me bla bla. I stay to facts. Yehoshua had not a second name and Isaiah does not refere to Yehoshua.

    Yehoshua had a lover called Magdalena. It is a sin to have a lover and G-d would not work as a carpenter on Earth. Yehoshua did not listen to his father and the father punished him sohe was forced to work. Psalm 110 says Messiah is the highest priest and priests are not allowed to work. Here is evidence that he was under punishment.

    OT says G-d can see into future. Yehoshua said no one except the father knows times in future. Yehoshua could not see into future by himself without G-ds help. Yehoshua said he would come back very soon. And another verse from Paulus says it will take long time vefore he comes back. People will be crazy and say he will never come back because he never excisted. Yehoshua did not know times. Holy spirit corrected him trough Paulus.

    Yehoshua wax concieved from holy Ghost so his blood was holy and it is his blood that forgives sins. Not him because he is not G-d and he is not perfect.

    I want to finish this with Rev 1:1

    G-d gave his son info about future. The son can not see into future otherwise G-d would not give him info about future.

    Very simple.

    If you stay to facts. It is very simple to understand but when you read scriptures as muslims and say it does not really mean hate it means love then you are fooling yourself.

    I am a Christian and I do not believe in everything in NT because everything is not correct. Look at the two genealogies. In one it says Josefs fathers name is Eli in the other it says Josefs fathers name was Jacob and the three goes in another direction. G-d is perfect. Moshe and Yehoshua was not.

    Period!

    • DOTSS- Just when you think that things can’t get any more convoluted, here you come with all of this! Exactly what religion are you involved in? I always assumed you were Catholic. Sorry to show my ignorance, but you don’t make a whole lot of sense!

    • Defender,

      All I can say is, if you continue believing as you do, you will never inherit the kingdom of God. Jesus is the one who saved us from sin. If Jesus was a sinner as you claim, then he could not have resurrected. Death would have power over him and all of the human race would also be lost. Without Christ there would be no reconciliation to the Father. You are just another false teacher.

      • Dmcal52
        You are a false teacher. You said one year ago that we Christians can not be punished and be judged to hell. One verse in NT backs you up but more then 100 tells us the opposite. In 1 Korinth. 7 we have a message from the lord that we are not allowed to divorce. If we are freefrom sin and can not get judged then we can also have a divorce.
        Regarding divorce in OT it is ok to divorce and in NT it is not. G-ds values will not change. Judaism is G-ds religion and Christianity is fhe sons and the NT is written to Yehoshua in this life. G-d has abandoned
        The earths population. Zep 1:18, 3:7, Isaiah 24 tells us this.

        You djd not answer my question. Rev. 1:1 says Yehoshua can not see into future and G-d can see into future according to the Bible. Yehoshua teached wrong that he was the lord. In Jeremiah 23:6 the messiah will be called the lord not that he was. Yehoshua is living on earth and he is under punishment because of this.

        G-ds values will not change.

        I am a Christian but I do not believe in everything in NT. Many wrongs.

        • Defender,

          You said:
          “You said one year ago that we Christians can not be punished and be judged to hell. ”

          Rebut:
          I don’t know what you are quoting from , but those who are truly in Christ will not be punished by God and that because Jesus/Yeshua was already punished on all believers behalf. The wrath that we deserve was placed on him and so the debt has been paid on our behalf. Regarding this Scripture says the following:

          “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

          Furthermore, the wrath of God is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and those who belong to Christ are not appointed to suffer that wrath of God.

          You said:
          “You did not answer my question. Rev. 1:1 says Yehoshua can not see into future”

          Rebut:
          I don’t pretend to know everything in the word of God nor do I completely understand the oneness between God the Father and God the Son. I do know that Jesus, who is God, became a man and existed with God the Father prior to his coming to earth. I also know that there are plenty of Scriptures where Jesus (in his humanity) foretells of future events. Just read Matthew 24 which is full of future events that Jesus proclaimed.

          You said:
          “I am a Christian but I do not believe in everything in NT. Many wrongs.”

          Rebut:
          Sir, you cannot be Christian, but you are an enemy of Christ, for in a previous post you claimed that Yeshua is a sinner, yet Scripture says that he has no sin. As I said, If Jesus was a sinner then he would not have been able to pay the penalty for our sins and he would not have been able to resurrect, which would mean that all humanity would still be in their sins and on their way to condemnation. God is powerful enough to make sure that we have the truth and accuracy of his word. If his word was corrupted as you say, then no one could know what God’s word is really saying.

          “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

          “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”

          The word of God is the word of God and we can trust in what is written.

          I warn you though, as long as you believe that Jesus was a sinner, then you are no Christian, but are an enemy. And I am not saying this heatedly nor out of hatred, but I am speaking the truth. As long as you continue to believe that Jesus/Yeshua is a sinner you are his and his Father’s enemy and that because you have not believed. If Jesus was a sinner as you say, your faith would be in vain and that because Jesus would not be able to save you are anyone else. In order for him to pay the penalty for sins, he himself would have to be without sin. But I know that just as God’s word states, Jesus committed no sin, but the penalty for our sins and now sits at the right hand of God the Father making intercession for believers. If you will repent and truly believe in him, then you will be saved. But, if you continue to believe that Jesus was a sinner, then you have no salvation.

          I hope that you will change your position in this matter. Repent and believe!

  33. Dmcal52

    Like I said. One vers backup up the protestant faith that you cannot bejudged but 100 verses tells us the opposite. It is easy to understand when 100 against 1 verse tells us the opposite then we can be judged. I can give you some verses that tells that the protestant faith is false and from satan.
    Matteus 25, Rev 21, 1 Corinth. 6, 1 Corinth. 7:10-11, 2 Corinth. 5:10, Matt 5:22 etc etc

    I have read NT many times so I know that Yehoshua gave prophecies that was fullfilled later. If you add Rev 1:1 then it is easy to understand that when Yehoshua speaks about future it is the G-d/holy ghost. It is not him and Rev backs this up. Yehoshua tried to speak about future without help and he failed when he said he will come back very soon/before this generation dies. Yehoshua can not see into future and G-d can so Yehoshua is not God.

    Yehoshua had a lover that was prostitute and satanist. She is called the seven spirits woman and magdalena. To have a lover is a sin. A human beinb a sinner. Yehoshua became flesh. Flesh is human and again humans can not be without sin.

    Ifollow the Ortodox faith exceot that I do not believe that Yehoshua was G-d. I obey the original church and you obey a german antisemetic racist. I think I am saved but you belong to to satan and Idolaters life after earth is hellaccording to Rev 21, Psalm 9.

    Yehoshua is not G-d and Mohammed, Martin Luther is satans messenger.

    • Defender,

      I’m not going to debate any of these issues with you and that because you obviously don’t know the truth of Scripture. Case in point: you say that Jesus committed sin, yet you call yourself a Christian. If Christ were a sinner there would be no salvation for anyone and your faith would be in vain. That is, there would be no point in being a Christian. I would say to you what Paul said: If Christ has not risen, then you are still in your sins. This tells me that you don’t understand the basic principles of salvation. For if Chirst did not live a perfect sinless life in the flesh, then he could not have paid the penalty for our sins nor could not have resurrected. Therefore, the rest of these biblical issues that you are arguing about are of no consequence. For if Christ was a sinner, as you say, then none of these other things would have any meaning.

      My advise to you is to forget what you have been taught and to believe in what the word of God says, repent and have faith in Christ who committed no sin, paid the penalty for our sins, rose from the dead on the third day, was seen by over 500 believers and then ascended to the right hand of God the Father where he makes intercession for those who belong to him. If you continue to believe that Jesus is a sinner, then you remain in your sins and are an enemy of God. But if you repent, then he will forgive you of all of this nonsense.

  34. To all:
    In the Roman Empire even as he wrote. John’s purpose is not to construct a scenario for a specific series of events in the distant future, but to interpret (not literally, but very imaginatively) certain developments in his own day. Once we stop looking for a blueprint of the future, we can gain insight from the picture he paints into the conflict between good and evil in every generation–including our own.

    Palisade

    • Beacon,

      As I stated with the previous Scripture, the day of the Lord is unfulfilled and is still a future event. Regarding the following:


      “I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”

      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”
      declares the Lord. I will sweep away both man and beast;
      I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—
      and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.
      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” (Zep.1:2-3)

      The above prophecy has not been fulfilled and is in reference to God’s future wrath when he will decimate the population of the earth and dismantle all human goverments. This is demonstrated by the fact that at the 4th seal a fourth of the earth’s immediate population is killed. Likewise, as a result of the 6th trumpet judgment a third of the earth’s population is killed. Consequently, a fourth and a third is over half of the earth’s population and that is without counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1 thru 3 and the bowl judgments.

      This decimation of the earth’s population is also demonstrated by Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the satatue and the Rock that was cut out of the mountain without human hands which falls on the feet of the statue smashing it to pieces like chaff on a threashing floor when the wind comes and blows it away never to be found again. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.

      The statue repesents all human kingdoms/governments which are swept away without a trace. God is going to accomplish this via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The Rock/Christ is the one who opens the seals, which leads into the trumpets and bowl judgmenets, meaning that he is the one who is initating the wrath. Isaiah echos what Zephania says when speaking regarding the day of the Lord in the following Scripture:

      ” I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.”

      You said:
      “John’s purpose is not to construct a scenario for a specific series of events in the distant future, but to interpret (not literally, but very imaginatively) certain developments in his own day.”

      This claim is false! The burden of proof is on you and anyone who is proclaiming the same. Case in point is that, the system that the mark will use has been evolving ever since the first ATM’s came out, followed by the universal product codes, followed by debit card and the point of sale system, which allows individuals to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts in real time. So the system is already here and in place. In addition we have Denark announcing to go completely cashless with the rest her Scandinavian neighbors to follow. At the same time we have businesses in Sweden implanting office workers with RFID chips in the hand. A person would have to be blind not to make the connections here, for this is what the Scripture says:

      “He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.” (Rev.13:16)

      In the Scripture above, the meaning of “Buying and selling” is crediting and debiting. This evolution of the system for the coming mark will continue to evolve in preparation for the revealing of that antichrist. I believe that the next phase will be that the RFID chip implant or something simular, will begin to replace the card technology, so that instead of a person having to get out there card to swipe in order to make a purchase, they will just have their pesonal chip scanned which will credit and debit their bank account in real-time just like the debit card did. Sometime during that antichrist’s reign, my guess is that he will make cash, checks, credit and debit obsolete leaving only his mark as a way to buy or sell, just as the scripture states. This is how I believe he is going to “Force all people” to receive it.

      By the way, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all literal and will take place just as they are written. The only time that they may seem like they are symbolic is by the way John describes them.

  35. The most important thing for the modern reader to remember in connection with the celebrated 666 of verse Rev. 13:18 is that its purpose is to “”Characterize””, not identify, the beast. If the name Nero Caesar is somehow concealed here, the point is not that the beast from the sea is Nero, but that the beast is like Nero in its “Character and evil acts“. Clearly the emperor Nero in the sixties was the major oppressor and persecutor of Christians within the historical memory of John’s readers. If 666 is simply an expression of evil as anything that falls short of the good, then its purpose is to dramatize the point that the beast is evil and therefore to be resisted at all costs, and possibly also that it is doomed to “failure upon failure upon failure,” as the next few chapters will show.
    In any event, the modern reader should give priority to verse Rev. 13:10, “this calls for patient endurance and faithfulness,” over verse Rev. 13:18, this calls for wisdom. The “”believer’s responsibility is not to know everything in advance””, but to be faithful no matter whether the threat to faith comes from the final antichrist figure itself or from one of its many predecessors–“”for example””, false prophecy as represented by the rider on the white horse in chapter 6. In our preoccupation with the beast in Revelation, we should not forget the words of 1 John 2:18: “Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even “NOW”many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.” It is every bit as vital for Christians to resist the “many” as “the one.”
    Our age today will be just like the one that Jesus and John wrote about.

    Palisade

    • Beacon,

      As was with so many that people claimed to be the beast, Nero does not fit the criteria of the beast. First of all it is important to understand that the revealing of the beast is directly related to the Lord’s return to the earth to end the age. We have no fulfillment of the covenant being made for one ‘seven’ and we have no fulfillment of the abomination being set up in the holy place nor the desolation which follows. This is an event which will take place in the middle of that last seven year period and we know that it hasn’t taken place because at the end of the seven Jesus returns and both the beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire and it also brings an end to this current age and begins Christ’s thousand year kingdom on this current earth. These events are linked together and therefore you can’ t have fulfillment regarding the beast without also having Jesus returned.

      You said:
      “If 666 is simply an expression of evil as anything that falls short of the good”

      The mark that is coming and is already here, is a literal mark. I have already made the point that people are already being implanted with the RFID chip in the hand. Coincidence? No way! This implant is the fulfillment of that mark that John wrote of. Not long from now the world will begin to see this implant being used along side cash, checks, credit and debit cards. As time goes on cash and checks will continue to be phased out with the credit and debit cards following later. Then there will only be that mark, the chip implant. When that happens the inhabitants of the earth at that time will have two choices, one, to recieve the implant/mark or two, reject it. Anyone who rejects it will be an enemy of the beast and his kingdom and will not be able to be apart of the world economy and that because they will have no way of being able to credit and debit their bank accounts with the mark. On the other hand, anyone who receives that implant/mark will seal their fate as Rev.14:9-12 makes very clear.

      You quoted:
      ““Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even “NOW”many antichrists have come.”

      Following that, in 1 John 2:22 John says:

      “Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.”

      What John was saying then is that there were and are many types of antichrist, but from the rest of Scripture we know that there is one specific person who is going to be thee antichirst, also referred to by Paul as the Man of Lawlessnes. And of this antichrist Paul said:

      “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thes.2:4)

      The above Scripture demonstrates that there is one individual who is still to come who will be that antichrist whom Satan will give his seat, power and great authority to. As John stated, there have always been types of antichrist in the world and that becaaus they deny that Jesus is the Christ. But one particular person is coming who will play the part of the one who is prophecied to come. And as I stated before, we know that it is a particular peron because when Jesus returns in Rev.19 the beast along with the false prophet are both thrown alive into the lake of fire.

      You said:
      “Our age today will be just like the one that Jesus and John wrote about.”

      The only difference is, in John’s day there were types of antichrist’s, but the one specific antichrist was still yet to come. Furthermore, for those apostles, since they were not privey to when these events would take place, their reference to this being “The last hour” or “the last days” is always imminent, on the horizon, looming, just like it is for us. The difference for us in this current time in history, is that we can see these things coming to fulfillment. The very fact that people are being implanted with chips under the skin of their hands and that people are making purchases electornically, gives us understanding of what John was speaking about regarding a mark in the right hand or forhead and without it no one would be able to buy or sell.

      And regarding what you said about “our age today being just like the one that Jesus and John wrote about” this is not true, for regarding those days Jesus said:

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.”

      Therefore, according to what Jesus said above regarding that future wrath and the reign of that antichrist, the worst is yet come upon the earth.

  36. dmcal – you said = As I stated with the previous Scripture, the day of the Lord is unfulfilled and is still a future event. Regarding the following:

    Intro:
    Our world could collapse and be destroyed any day this week. You do not know. Every generation that was destroyed took awhile. And we have enough sign’s already for it to be the end time of all Nations. Did you read the headlines today. Putin is getting Atomic missiles that cannot be shot down. The generation of Americans today. Are compared by Rom. 1. And every evil empire in the Bible that backslide away from God will have their judgment day. We are the Israel of God today. = The Church Body. We will believe every false prophet their is. And kill the influence of the true ones. Because true Prophets are never popular.

    answer- It took Noah 120 years of preaching the Gospel to the reprobates that would not listen. Then Judgment hit the “whole world” of that time. It was the “End of the world” for the millions that hated god. Noah was translated by the same water that destroyed the rest of the world. As the un-believers translated to death, Hell and the grave to never rise again. Notice – that world was just like our world today. Jesus and the Apostle’s said so. And wrote about it. Notice= Look at the “Character of that world”. Same as ours today. Without the “Character of Christ” you are of the world and your Character will be devilish. no in between’s

    Dmcal: You said = As was with so many that people claimed to be the beast, Nero does not fit the criteria of the beast. First of all it is important to understand that the revealing of the beast is directly related to the Lord’s return “to the earth to end the age”.
    Answer:- Christ has retuned to the Earth many times. In Nimrods day. In Moses day absolutely they saw the Holy Cloud and all and still would not believe. You must have not read my little post. Nero fit the beast perfectly in CHARACTER – But it was TITUS with his army that destroyed and polluted the sanctuary of the Holy of Holies. Titus CHARACTER was the same as Nero’s. On and on. Till you get to the Popes as well. Now look at America and the whole world. Its gone in un-belief and darkness.

    Dmcal: you said – Then you said this: We have no fulfillment of the covenant being made for one ‘seven’ and we have no fulfillment of the “abomination” being set up in the “Holy Place nor the Desolation which follows.
    Answer: I already answered the “abomination of the Holy place by Titus. And when you read below Matt. 23. You will see that all the “so called” church of Jesus generation had Evil Character as well. He called them snakes and vipers. It all the same in world and church. Like today

    Here is your answer: From Jesus Christ Himself
    Matt. 23:29-39 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
    Matt. 23:30- And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

    Matt 23:31- Wherefore “ye be witnesses unto yourselves”, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    Matt. 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

    Matt. 23:33- Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can “ye escape the damnation of hell?”

    Matt. 23:34- ¶ Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: = this was the war between Israel and the Real Christians believers of that generation.

    Matt. 23:35-That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    Matt. 23:36- Verily I say unto you, “ALL THESE THINGS” SHALL “COME” UPON “THIS GENERATION”. It come to pass like Jesus said = in the Roman/and Israel was that lasted 3-1/2 years – Along with Jesus and John the Baptist was another 3-1/2 years proclaiming the Gospel first then Judgment that went all the way back to Abel even. It came upon Israel because they persecuted the True believers first. So God gave them their FINAL judgment of death. Do not we realize that Israel became the enemies to Gods real Children. And its always the same through the Bible. Its the Same things we all fight against in OUR DAY Same darkness, same Evil, Same serpents and vipers etc.. etc.

    Matt. 23:37- O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy “”Children together””, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, “”and ye would not!”” = They could not endure the Word of Jesus Christ it was “Thus saith the Lord”. Jesus was a Prophet as well.

    Matt. 23:38 Behold, your “”house=nation” is “”left unto you desolate””.

    Matt. 23:39- For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. = He was seen in the 3-1/2 year War between Rome/Israel. In the Glory cloud etc. etc. Many accounts in history. How can this be our day when Christ said it was HIS GENERATION – Everything that was promised to come had come in the Rome/Israel war. This 70 weeks is over – but yes we will have Judgment come. That is the Coming of the Lord for our day. And most will not see it was the coming of the Lord. In Moses day the Glory Cloud came down and the whole of Israel was their. Did it make an impact upon their faith.=NO
    b. That is the way it has to be. Noah’s day was the same – all turned on God except for the very few. = 8 = New beginning. Every age that died started another Age=world
    c. Sodom and Gomorrah never knew those two angels were angels.
    And they did not care about the great Prophet Abraham living around them. They were to busy lusting for strange flesh. Like America today.
    d. When Babylon took over Israel they plowed them to the Ground. Destroyed them completely and Jerusalem had to be rebuilt all over. = Temple and all. In 70 A.D the Romans with Gods blessings did the same way. What was wrong with that day. They rebelled against God again. Its the MANY we need to see today. Not just looking for ONE man.
    e. The Book of Revelation – is a book about the enemies of God and Judgment coming upon them for persecuting the Saints. That covers many different – Age’s – worlds in the bible.

    Do we realize that if we MURDER the WORD of God in this generation. God would have to look at us the same way He did in the generation’s of HIS LIFE in HIS church age.
    John actually used Egypt and Rome to tell of the persecution and the Victory of the saints. In both Cases its a easy thing to understand. When you know its about just 2 Characters.

    Palisade

    • Beacon,

      You said:
      “Our world could collapse and be destroyed any day this week. You do not know.”

      No it couldn’t! Everything has to go according to God’s wordj, that is, all of the events that are written about concerning this time of wrath must take place. That time of destruction is set for seven years, which is the fulfillment of the prophecy given to Daniel regarding Israel and Jerusalem. Seventy ‘sevens’ were prophecied and sixty-nine of the ‘sevens’ were completed when the Anointed One was cut of (Christ crucified) and there is one ‘seven’ remaining which will commence from the time that that antichrist makes his covenant for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the seven is when he will break that covenant. During that time God will also be pouring out his wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Everything must take place according to Scripture and this destruction is not going to take 120 years, but is prophecied for seven.

      You said:
      ” We will believe every false prophet their is. And kill the influence of the true ones. Because true Prophets are never popular.

      Please speak for yourself. Because I study the word of God, I am not swayed by false teachers, rather I expose and warn them. Only those who do not study God’s word are vulnerable to false prophets, even those who call themselves Christian’s and that because they replace the word of God with the teachings of men.

      You said:
      “It took Noah 120 years of preaching the Gospel to the reprobates that would not listen.”

      Just because destroyed the earth a hundred years after Noah began to build the ark, doesn’t mean that God is restricted to the same amount of time. This destruction is going to be the creme de la creme of destruction as it will demantle all of human goverment, which will never be reinstated again will usher in Chirst’s millennial kingdom. After that thousand years comes the eternal state with the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem.

      (Continued)

    • (Continue)

      Before I go any further with responding to any of your posts, please explain, in detail, what the following Scripture means.

      “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.”

  37. To all: Rev. 13
    Will the drama of Revelation 13 be acted out literally in our world, and if so, where? In the United States, in some Third World dictatorship, or everywhere at once? No passage in the entire book has captured the human imagination to quite the extent this one has. Many Americans who have little or no interest in believing or practicing anything found in the Bible suddenly become literal-minded fundamentalists when it comes to the mark of the beast (Rev.13: 17) and the mysterious 666 (v. 18). Some of their interpretations place the passage in the world of the occult or science fiction, while others propose conspiracy theories about the European Common Market, rampant computer technology, the increasing prevalence of credit and debit cards, personal identification numbers and the like. “As a result, many serious Christians avoid the chapter altogether and with it, too often, the entire book of Revelation”.
    It is important to remember that virtually all the main verbs in verses Rev. 13:12-18 are present tense. This is obscured to some extent in the NIV, which seems to take them as “historical” present tenses, governed by the past tense, “I saw,” in verse 11. They come through in the NIV, therefore, as past tenses: he exercised (v. 12), he performed (v. 13), he deceived (v. 14), he forced (v. 16). This is legitimate, but it should not cloud the fact that what John sees is something going on even as he watches. Literally, the second beast “is exercising” the first beast’s authority and “is making” the earth’s inhabitants worship the beast (v. 12). It “is performing” great signs (v. 13), “is deceiving” the earth’s inhabitants (v. 14) and “is forcing” everyone to bear the first beast’s mark on the hand or the forehead (v. 16). All this could simply be the style of prophetic narrative. It is, however, more likely that John is suggesting that what he saw was in some sense going on in the Roman Empire even as he wrote. John’s purpose is not to construct a scenario for a specific series of events in the distant future, but to interpret (not literally, but very imaginatively) certain developments in his own day. Once we stop looking for a blueprint of the future, we can gain insight from the picture he paints into the conflict between good and evil in every generation–including our own.
    Three aspects of John’s description of the second beast’s activities are particularly instructive. First, there is a strong accent on idolatry, with a characteristically Jewish insistence that the worship of idols is based on deception (see 2:14, 20; 9:20). The second beast deceived the inhabitants of the earth when he ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast, and was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak (vv. 14-15). Second, the relationship between the two beasts is like that between the state and a state church. The beast from the sea is a secular political power, while the beast from the earth is a religious institution fostering worship of the first beast. The idolatry in question is thus defined as idolatry of the state. In John’s day the state was the Roman Empire, but the vision is fulfilled in every generation whenever the state, with the help of religious institutions, tries to make itself the object of worship or to claim for itself allegiance that belongs to God alone.
    John’s vision is not so much protesting against some isolated aberration in the first century A.D. as staking out the limits of good citizenship. As long as the state is simply the state, an institution created by God (as it was for Paul in Rom 13:1-7) or at least tolerated by God (as it was for Peter in 1 Pet 2:13-17), it is possible for a Christian to be a good and loyal citizen. But when the state oversteps its bounds so as to become God, good citizenship is no longer an option. The battle lines are drawn, even though the Christian’s role in the battle is a passive one governed by the counsel of verse 10: “if anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go,” and “if anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed.”

    Palisade

  38. Beacon,

    Like so many who don’t understand the book of Revelation, you have no idea what is going to take place on the earth. I am pretty sure now that you follow after the teaching of Amillennialism. I have found that even with the proof of Scripture staring them in the face, they reject it. The reason for this is first of all, these are not your studies but what you’ve been taught by false teachers. Just as with you, I have found that I cannot use Scripture to prove God’s word and that because Amillennialists have been taught a pre-packaged interpretation on every biblical subject, which has replaced God’s word. For example:

    “And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.”

    The amillennialist has been taught that the key to the Abyss and the great chain cannot be literal because Satan is spirit being and therefore it would not hold him. And based on this logic they claim that neither is Satan’s binding literal and that because he is a spirit. Then they will tell you that the thousand years is not a literal thousand years and as proof they will cite Psalm 50:10 which says, “I own cattle on a thousand hills” which infers that it represents an unknown number but represents all cattle. Then they take this formula and apply it to the thousand years of Satan’s binding so that instead of a literal thousand years it becomes an unknown amount of time, even though that thousand year period is repeated six times. So instead of paying attention to the context of any given Scripture, they erroneously apply a formula from some other scripture or from what they’ve been taught.

    The obvious answer is that a literal angel is going to come down out of heaven with the key to the Abyss, whether literal or spiritual, it makes no difference, but the result is what is important which is the literal binding of Satan and his being locked up in the Abyss during the same thousand years in which the Lord will reign. Neither is the Amillennialist looking for the promised resurrection and catching away, for they do not believe that the dead in Christ are going to rise from their graves, even though Scripture says they will.

    “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voiceand come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”

    “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

    I wonder how many Amillennialists will be standing in line to get their chip implant so that they can continue to credit and debit their bank accounts. Will they recognize that God’s word was speaking of a literal mark for buying and selling or will they continue to trust in what they’ve been taught? Also, they don’t ascribe to a literal person as the beast who will be proclaiming himself to be God. So since they beleive that we are currently living in the millennial period, when the antichrist/beast comes, will they mistake him for Jesus as returning at the end of the thousand years.

  39. Dear Bro. dmcal — why dont you look up the word “Come” in the Bible and see what it really means. yea you can start at Revelation 1:7 then go back and search it out starting with the Word “Come” If you cannot get a revelation from that then me telling you is not going to do it either.

    This big chain you talking about must be a great big Iron chain If I believe you. As if God had to use man made substance. They are only symbols.

    Any way we know we do not agree but its alright . How is your Heart doing today.

    God bless – palisade

    • Beacon,

      As I previously stated, the substance of the key and the chain are irrelevant. The result is the same, that being the literal binding of Satan in the literal Abyss, which is the same place that those demonic beings collectively called “Legion” begged Jesus not to send them into (Luke 8:26-39). The Abyss is the same place that is opened by that angel at the 5th trumpet judgment where those demonic beings are let loose and commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth for 5 months with stings like that of scorpions. Just as that angel of the Abyss has been and is currently restricted there, so also will Satan be thrown into and restricted in the Abyss when Christ returns to end the age. You are in error by assuming and teaching that these things are only symbols, for there is nothing in the context of the Scripture that would lead the reader to that conclusion. By symbolizing those things you change the meaning that God intended and that because you ignore the literal meaning of Scripture for the teachings of men. The seals, trumpets and bowl jugments are going to happen just as they written and that to fulfill God’s wrath. And speaking of the wrath to come, it is unprecedented in that it will be the end of human goverment and the beginning of the Lord’s millennial kingdom on this present earth. This is in fulfillment of prophecy of him sitting on the throne of David and ruling from Jerusalem.

      By the way, my heart is fine, but I am grieved over those who distort the word of God by symbolizing everything and thereby taking the original meaning away. It is false teaching.

      If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

  40. Luke 19:42-44 where Christ is seen as approaching the city of Jerusalem, weeping over it and saying:

    “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace–but now it is hidden from your eyes. The “”days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side.”” They will dash “”you”” =present tense- to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you “did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.” ”

    Preterists point out that history records the Romans built an embankment around Jerusalem during the war and killed anyone who tried to escape. The temple was totally leveled and became a farm field. This is the coming that Preterists believe is spoken of and anticipated throughout the NT writings.

    In John’s greeting to the seven churches, he speaks in verse 4 of grace and peace from “Him who is, and who was, and who is to come.” Who is “Him who is, and who was, and who is to come,”? Most, without further investigation, conclude the “Him” is Jesus Christ. This conclusion is largely based on the phrase “is to come” as it is believed Jesus is the one who is to come. In verse 8 we read the following:
    Revelation 1:8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    In Revelation 11:16, we read: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.” Because of the phrase “Have begun to reign,” This passage would appear to refer to Christ had already Come and is reigning in HIS CHOSEN VESSELS. We have already become Priest of His. And this saying is true. Receiving your coming is your coming.

    Jesus has never left the Earth. He has lived in His Chosen Bride for bout 2,000 years now. The Gospel has been preached in this age with Great light and from the 9 gifts of power mentioned in I Cor. 12. He has all Power to Salvation which means deliverance. That is “the chain” that ” Bounds satan from taking you over.” If He lives in you. He never gives up on you. He will be with you till your end. That’s His promise to us.
    Who can say in this world. That it cannot end any day for a single or for all.
    I would never say Jesus cannot come today. If you think that you had better re-think it. In His Age hardly any knew who he was and did not care. They had their religion and doctrines and that satisfied them. When you die and where you go is who you know. Thank God

    Palisade

    • Beacon said:
      “Jesus has never left the Earth. He has lived in His Chosen Bride for bout 2,000 years now. ”

      While it is true that the Holy Spirit dwells in all believers, Jesus ascended to the right hand of God where he intercedes for all believers.

      “Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.”

      Beacon said:
      “The Gospel has been preached in this age with Great light and from the 9 gifts of power mentioned in I Cor. 12. He has all Power to Salvation which means deliverance. That is “the chain” that ” Bounds satan from taking you over.”

      This is complete conjecture on your part, for the Scripture does not say this. It is assumeed. The Scripture states that Satan will be bound in the Abyss so that he will not be able to deceive the nations during that thousand years, which is the same that Christ rules. This binding is a literal binding under the earth in the Abyss so that Satan will have no literal access to human beings to be able to deceive them as he does now. One of the ways that we can know that this is speaking of a literal binding is because the Abyss is a real place and is mentioned in Luke 8:31 and is also mentioned at the 5th trumpet where those demonic beings are let out. One of the major problems today are people symbolizing in Scripture what is meant to be literal. When you do this, you change the meaing of God’s word and are in danger of Rev.22:18-19.

      Amillennialism also teaches that here is no literal resurrection as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-13. But they say that at the time of death a person remains in the groiund forever never to rise again. Yet, Scripture states the opposite, that is a bodily resurrection. They don’t pay any attention to the context of Scripture nor the to the meanings of the original words. If they did, they would know that the word “Anastasis” translated “Resurrection” is specifically defined as a “bodily standing up again.” There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection and that because when a believer dies their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. At some time in the near future, the Lord is going to descend from heaven and those who died in Christ will rise bodily being reunited with their spirit/souls and those who are still alive will be changed into their glorified bodies and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. That is what Scripture teaches, not a spiritual resurrection. The word Anastasis/resurrection has in view a literal standing up of the body at the time the Lord gathers us to himself. To make it clear, if a believer was to happen to die and be buried a day prior to the resurrection and catching away, his body body would no longer be in that grave and that because he would be in it, an upgraded version of it. Just as Christ rose bodily from the tomb, so also will those who are waiting for him. Now, if you are going to tell me that Jesus did not rise bodily, then you have a very big problem, for you would be denying his bodily resurrection, which is a requirement for salvation..

      You had better think hard about whom you have believed, because I know that you did not come by this by your own studies, but by false teachers. I recognize this because I have come across many who have been deceived by the same teachings. At the same time that Scripture declairs that there would be false teachers and those who would abandon the the truth and turn aside to myths, which is what your beliefs and teachings are.

    • Beacon said:
      “Who can say in this world. That it cannot end any day for a single or for all.
      I would never say Jesus cannot come today.”

      I can tell you in all truth with God as my witness, that the world will not end until the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and all that is written regarding that time of wrath has taken place, for this is how Scripture has revealed that the world will end. And when I say “End” I mean the end of this present age and the end of human goverment. To be clear, I am speaking of Jesus’ physical, visual return to the earth to end the age, to have the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire, to literally bind Satan in the Abyss and to establish his kingdom on earth. This event is a separate event from the resurrection and catching away, as that event takes place prior to God’s wrath being poured out to remove those who belong to him and that because they are not appointed to suffer wrath.

  41. Bro. Dmcal – I had your whole post on my word page. Getting ready to dissect it and it came to my mind. That me and you already dissected our beliefs for about 2 years or over. So really it is a wast of time for us to have another debate.
    And I also want to say. That I have always studied the Word on my own. I told you that in 2002 I was getting ready to set up a sermon to preach and the Lord told me plainly to preach a “NOW message” not a Future message. And I obeyed the Voice of the Holy Spirit. I was shocked at what I did not know was even in the Bible after studying Futurism for 10 years. The Book of Revelation is the Message for today’s remnant Bride of Christ. Not many can discern it. And you cannot explain it in little 5 and 6 line posts. And most are not that interested. It takes a life dedicated to the Word of God and pushing out all your own thoughts to receive the Mystery of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

    You yourself are brainwashed and think everyone else is the one brainwashed. But if you honestly Love the Lord and all Truth it will come to you by you seeking it with ALL your heart. Intellectual conceptions do not move me our the Lord. Paul knew the O.T like the back of his hand. But He still had to be Tutored for years and years to understand the mystery of Jesus Christ. God was with Him. He was the first Apostle that had the whole revelation on the N.T and and he could prove it out of the O.T. That’s why the Jew’s hated him so. He was the first Angel Messenger of the start of the True Bride. When John revealed it to the N.T Church in book of Revelation. Paul taught the Ephesians for 3 years and many others as well. That is why he is the 1st. Angel messenger in the 1st Century.

    Palisade.

    • Beacon,

      You said:
      “You yourself are brainwashed and think everyone else is the one brainwashed.”

      Rebut:
      By whom am I brainwashed. I have not nor have I ever had teachers. I don’t go to websites, nor do I watch videos for learning the Scriptures, nor do I give in to hear-say and I do not ascribe to other teachings, popular or otherwise. My knowledge comes strictly from Scripture, which is the source of all truth. Therefore, where is the brainwashing for me? You on the other hand are teaching something that is very recognizable, interpretations that you did not come up with by yourself and that because many others have the same teachings, which is called amillennialism. These are the teachings of men. They have a prepackaged interpretation for any given biblical subject that they slap on top of the word of God. Because of this it makes if difficult for those who know the word of God to contend for the truth because whenever a biblical subject comes up they ignore the context of Scripture and automatically teach that prepackaged answer.

      My claim is simple, and that is that the time of wrath that the prophets of Israel prophesied of called the day of the Lord, is coming quickly and that in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will fulfill, for one, the prophecy of Zephaniah:


      I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth,”

      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”
      declares the Lord. “I will sweep away both man and beast;
      I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—
      and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”
      “When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,”

      The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will bring the fulfillment of the above, decimating the population of the earth and uprooting all human government, which will also be in fulfillment of the Rock falling on the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s statue smashing it to pieces, never to be found again and making way for Christ’s literal millennial kingdom on earth in fulfillment of the prophecy of him ruling on the throne of David from Jerusalem. I interpret the judgments of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as literal just as they were meant to be received. For regarding them Scripture says:

      “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.”

      The word “revelation” is defined as something that was or has been hidden or partially hidden that is being unveiled, uncovered, a laying bare, making naked. As I have said before to you and many others, the proof is in the pudding as they say. I have pointed out that regarding that coming mark that the beast will utilize, the world has been pushing towards a cashless society by the use of electronic crediting and debiting (buy and selling). Now we have Denmark officially going cashless in 2016 and we have businesses in Europe where individuals are being implanted with RFID chips in their hands. I have already provided that video which is a BBC newscast from January of this year showing people receiving that chip implant with one of its uses as being to be able make purchases by having the chip scanned. That this technology exists and is being performed is a testament to the accuracy and coming fulfillment of God’s word. Yet you and those who hold to your teachings dismiss these things, not being able to discern them and that because you spiritualize everything. Case in point, Jesus said to his disciples and to us, “I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom.” In another Scripture Jesus says regarding the centurion’s faith, “I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.” In these two examples, Jesus is speaking of a literal feast to be held in heaven. But because you spiritualize these things, you say that we are feasting right now and you change the kingdom of heaven to the kingdom of heaven on earth, which the Scripture does not allude to. Your teachings take away the true meaning of God’s word.

      Regarding these things, I don’t have to debate this and that because I have been watching the technology evolve to make way for that prophesied mark ever since the first ATM’s came out, followed by the universal product codes (UPC), followed by the point of sale system (POS) and the continuing evolution of devices that allow individuals to now pay bills electronically and also to credit and debit each others bank accounts. And now countries are going completely cashless and people are being implanted with RFID chips. As I said, I don’t have to debate this, as the proof of a literal coming mark which will eventually replace the card swiping, will continue to evolve into a world-wide cashless society making way for that beast and his false prophet who will during his reign, make all other forms of crediting and debiting obsolete leaving only that implant device for anyone to be able to credit and debit their bank accounts. Anyone without the mark will not be able to be apart of the world banking system and that because the mark will eventually be the only way to perform any kind of financial transaction on ones bank account, ergo, he forces all.

      So I say to you Beacon and those who believe what he and others believe, the spiritualization of everything, just keep watching the world as this technology continues, as more and more nations move towards that cashless society and as this chip implant technology continues to take hold, because this is making way for the mark and that beast who is soon to be revealed. The events of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments described in Revelation are literal events, the wrath of God. The good news is that there is also a prophecy for those who have received Christ and are watching and are staying ready for his appearing to gather the dead and the living in the air and to take us back to the Father’s house while God’s wrath is being poured out on those who have rejected Christ and those who continue to live according to the sinful nature. Anyone who is not watching or ready for the Lord’s appearing are depicted as those five virgins whose lamps are going out and who have no extra oil with them.

      Keep watching for It is coming! And continue to watch for the appearing of the Lord just as he told us to.

  42. Palisade,
    The book of revelation is a blessing for all generations, not just now, as it teaches us not to rely on our own understanding. I thought you might enjoy this as well, and be blessed by it.
    http://www.unveiling.org/Articles/only.html
    You wrote:
    “It takes a life dedicated to the Word of God and pushing out all your own thoughts to receive the Mystery of The Revelation of Jesus Christ.”
    What a profound and mature statement of faith. It is we who get in the way of understanding his will. It took me many years to discover this.
    May God bless you brother, or is it sister?

    • Hello Agust and Beacon,

      This is an example of what I am talking about by the teachings of men. Instead of quoting Scripture from your own studies to teach the word of God, instead a link to a video is provided which is just someone else’s teachings. The events from Revelation 4 on were not relevant to those of John’s time and that because we know that they are still unfulfilled future events. What is relevant to all generations are the letters to the churches and that because they are examples of types of churches and believers throughout the entire church period which is still on-going. The wrath of God however has not yet begun, but will begin once that first seal has been opened followed by the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments whose purpose is to pour out God’s wrath and to end this age with the return of the Lord.

      • Don,
        Did you read th poem?
        Doctrine, is the Milk of the faith, Holy Spirit revelation is the meat.
        Proof text since you demand it, 1 Corinthians 3 (whole chapter).
        I will quote the last part of the chapter here:

        18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.” 21 So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.

        11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:11-14
        Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 and of instruction about washings,[a] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits. Hebrews 6:1-3

        Do you see it? Milk is the doctrine, yes as babes in Christ we need milk (1 Peter 2:2), There comes a time when you must walk in the Spirit and at the meat of the Holy Spirit. The writer of Hebrews, after encouraging the readers to move on from the milk of doctrine begins discussing Holy Spirit revelation, such as the priesthood of Melchisedek, Jesus, being the high priest of a better covenant, we being the New temple of that covenant, etc.
        The Spiritual is superior to the carnal knowledge which you advocate. Nothing wrong with milk, but you have got grow to maturity IN Christ Jesus.
        The Poem is the writing of someone who has matured in Christ Jesus.
        Shalom

  43. Jesus will not come back as he promised. Read Isaiah 24 a future prophecy when G-d fires up almost all the people on earth because we have broken the law. We Ortodox Christians the true and original church have almost 2700 laws and people do not obey them. In sweden were I live. Girls loose their virginity when they are 13 and have a marriage after 25. The law says you must be married to touch someone. Zephaniah 1:18, 3:7 tells us the same.

    • Defender,

      Jesus fulfilled every prophecy that was written of him in the law, Psalms and the prophets. In his prayer to God the Father he prayed:

      “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

      Notice his words “by finishing the work you gave me to do?” This means that Jesus accomplished all that the Father send him to do. Regarding Jesus when he came up out of the water from being baptized, God the Father said “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

      Therefore, since God the Father said this is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well please, this would not fit with your claim that Jesus was a sinner. And this is just one example and there many. My sincere advise to you is to confess to God what you have been believing, repent and start over reading the Scriptures and believe in what is written. Because of these things that you currently believe in you have wandered away from truth and need to repent. As far as Jesus coming back, his promise is as follows which he will keep:

      “According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. ”

      Just as the Scripture above states, that promise is according to the Lord’s own word. This is what all true believers are waiting and watching for. Furthermore, believers are no longer under the law of Moses, but are saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law. We follow Christ and are led by the Spirit of God and are not saved by our own efforts. By your believing and teaching that Jesus is a sinner, you are an enemy of God. I suggest that you seriously consider your position and repent.

  44. Zep 3:8

  45. Dmcal – I see men everywhere that preach the same message you do. They are everywhere on the TV and around the world. Jack Van Impe – you made a exact quote on your post to me that Jack says. You have been taught by many men. Cause I know your doctrine as well. Mcgarther, Scofield, Baptist, Evangelical is what you teach. Scofield put out the first Commentary in a Bible form and every Baptist , Pentecost and most all denomination in the early days of the 20th. century went with that. He was teaching a Rapture, yea and 12 other doctrines he said was the Mysteries for our day. Lets listen to what God told Jeremiah a real Prophet. When His church went astray. As always

    The prophet Jeremiah. He preached, he warned, he exposed false preaching of his day and all to no avail. And he and his Israel people went right into captivity. The very captivity about which he had been warning. He put that blame for that tragic collapse of his civilization right where it belonged. With the ministers, who taught error. He wrote this, “behold the Prophets say to them, Ye will not see the sword. Neither see famine. But I will give you assured peace in this place. Then the lord said unto me. “Prophets prophesy lies in my name. I sent them not. Neither have I commanded them. Neither spake unto them. They prophesy unto you a false vision and divination. A thing of not, and deceit of their heart. Therefore saith the Lord concerning the Prophets that prophesy in my name and I sent them not, Yet say sword and famine shall not be in this land, by sword and famine shall these prophets be consumed.”

    Now that is an interesting part to start off with and we can understand that they are going to get what they deserve. But notice in the next verse. Jeremiah 14, 13-16, “and the people to whom they prophesy will be cast into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and sword and they shall have none to bury them, not their wives, nor their sons nor their daughters for I will pour wickedness upon them.”

    Bad enough we had bad prophets. Bad enough we had false teachers and preachers. But apparently it seems to be just as bad to sit in the congregation of these people as it is to be the preacher. I recognize that brother Jeremiah did not project a very pretty picture for his people.

    Jeremiah did not blame the King, he did not accuse the court system, he did not accuse the political nor community leaders. He laid none of the national problems on the prostitutes, homosexuals, drug addicts and we are sure that Israel had those in those days also. Here is the interesting point that God gave to Jeremiah: all the sins of the land were there because of the ministers. Who when they were not called, it was because of their preaching. That wickedness not only abounded, but was permitted. The central theme of the last few messages I have given here is that you have truth and you hold a candle in your hand with a smoldering wick.
    So Dmcal put your doctrine up beside the REAL Prophets and see if it dovetails into Jeremiahs doctrines and all other Prophets of the O.T.

    Its easy to go with the multitudes and swim down stream but its easy to preach what the people want to hear. But Gods message was always contrary to the multitudes. Yea you will get many more praises than most. Because you preach the lukewarm doctrines that please men. Everybody desires to float up into the air and the poor sinners below get what they deserve. And in this sanctimonious age we live in today. You will say will get out of all the Great tribulation by a rapture into a Millennium that is already been going on for 2,000 years. We are the Temple of God “Now” that’s why their is NO need for a New Temple in Israel. You will find this all out very soon I believe. But In Gods reality. It was the Preachers and Ministers in every age that took their people into slaughter and perished in the gain sayings of Korah, Cain, Balaam and all the rest. Natural brute beast with no clouds of rain in them to refresh the truth of it all. To be a teacher is a awesome responsibility.

    Palisade

  46. Beacon,

    As usual you don’t listen. I can’t help it if there are people who have come to the same conclusion as I have from studying Scripture. It’s like calling someone a Calvinist who doesn’t know anything about Calvinism, which in fact I have also been accused of. Again, I can’t help it if someone has come to the same conclusions from Scripture as I have. As I said, they are not my teachers and that because I don’t listen to them. I don’t tune into their programs. I would have to be a follower of them in order to be quoting them. This is why I provide Scripture to back up everything that I am saying and that because that is where I learned from, not from men as you claim. When I claim a truth from God’s word, I am not nor have I ever directed anyone to a link for a video or someone’s website. My studies are my studies and mine alone! You can go through every post that I have ever made and you will not find any reference to anyone else’s teachings. The only video that I have provided in a post has nothing to do with someone else’s teachings, but a BBC Newscast showing people being implanted with RFID chips in their hands as proof of the coming mark that is listed in Scripture. In my job I have always worked off hours and so I have plenty of time to study, which is what I do every night. I keep the word of God with me at work and every night I spend time going through my studies, no videos, no teachers, just the word of God and I have been doing that for years. So you speak of what you do not know.

    You said:
    “Yea you will get many more praises than most. Because you preach the lukewarm doctrines that please men.”

    I teach Jesus Christ, crucified, buried and resurrected. How is that lukewarm? And how does that please men? The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who perishing, remember?

    You said:
    “Everybody desires to float up into the air and the poor sinners below get what they deserve.”

    Scripture says:
    “According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.”

    According to the Lord’s own word:

    * The information in the Scripture above as Paul states, is directly from the Lord.

    * The Lord himself will come down from heaven

    * The dead in Christ will rise first

    * Then the believers who are still alive will be changed in a moment (1 Cor.15:51-52) and will be caught up with those who will have just previously been resurrected to be gathered with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

    * The words “Caught up” is translated from the Greek word “Harpazo” which is defined properly as to “seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.”

    Now, do you see any quotes from any other teachers in what I just posted? No, you don’t. I have listed the plain Scripture of God’s word and listed it in detail. Putting the time frame in which this event takes place aside, the event listed above means exactly what it says. At some time in the future, in God’s timing, the Lord is going to descend from heaven and those who have died in Christ will be resurrection bodily first and will rise to meet the Lord. Once that has taken place, which will be in the twinkling of an eye, those believers who are still alive, will be changed in a moment from this current mortal body into their immortal glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have just previously resurrected. The Scripture above is very clear on this. The only way that you could not believe what the Scripture says is by spiritualizing it, which means that you have erroneously interpreted something that is meant to be taken literally which takes away the true literal meaning.

    Furthermore, the reason that this event will take place is because the wrath that believers deserve as a result of sin was placed on Christ and therefore since God’s wrath has been satisfied we who believe in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath. “The poor sinners below,” as you call them, will suffer the wrath of God and that because they have not believed in Jesus Christ, who is the only way of salvation, and will refuse to repent and will have continued living according to the sinful nature. These are the people that God will be pouring his wrath upon.

    (Continued for the sake of length)

    • (Continued from above)

      You said:
      “You will say we’ll get out of all the Great tribulation by a rapture into a Millennium that is already been going on for 2,000 years.”

      No, I didn’t say that we will get out of the Great tribulation by a rapture into the Millennium. According to Scripture, the thousand years (millennium) will begin when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. That thousand years does not begin at the time of the resurrection and catching away, but after the wrath of God has been poured out followed by Lord’s return, as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21. Also, how can a thousand years be going on for 2000 years? Six times “a thousand years” are written and instead of believing that it means exactly that, a thousand years, you spiritualize it making it an unknown amount of time, which is as I said before, amillennialism.

      You said:
      “We are the Temple of God “Now” that’s why their is NO need for a New Temple in Israel.”

      Yes, you are correct, believers in Christ are the temple of God, for Scripture proclaims this. But God is not finished with the Nation Israel. This last seven years that is coming is the fulfillment of the seventy ‘sevens’ that were decreed upon the nation Israel and Jerusalem (Dan.9:24). Sixy-nine of those ‘sevens’ were fulfilled when the Anointed One was cut-off (Christ crucified). At that time God paused that last seven year period and began to build the church, which is still in process. Once the building of the church has been completed, then the resurrection and catching away will take place and then God will take up where he left off with that last seven which will be initiated by that man of lawlessness when he makes his firm covenant for one ‘seven’. From there we know that in 3 1/2 years latter, he will cause the sacrifice and offerings to cease and will set up that abomination in the holy place which causes the desolation of Jerusalem. Jesus quoted this event as still future when he said in Mt.24:15 “Therefore, when you see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet.” Consequently, there was no fulfillment in between the time that Jesus quoted Daniel to the time the temple was destroyed, ergo, it is still a future event.

      The day of the Lord is coming where God is going to resurrect and catch up his church and is going to completed the prophesies regarding the nation Israel and pour out his wrath upon an unbelieving, sinful world with Christ returning afterwards to end the age and begin that thousand years.

      ================================

      * He seized the dragon—that old serpent, who is the devil, Satan—and bound him in chains for a thousand years

      * The angel threw him into the bottomless pit, which he then shut and locked so Satan could not deceive the nations anymore until the thousand years were finished

      * They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their forehead or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

      * This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)

      * Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.

      * When the thousand years come to an end, Satan will be let out of his prison.

      ===============================

      Wow! Six times the words “thousand years” is written and you want to believe in something other than a literal thousand years and this due to spiritualization. One thing is for sure, you can’t say that the Scripture doesn’t say “a thousand years.” As I have said before, the burden of proof is on you and those who believe in amillennialism and that because Scripture is clear that it means a literal thousand years. And there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to believe in anything other than a literal interpretation.

      Now in closing, have I referred to anyone else’s teachings, their books, their videos or websites? No, I have not. I have provided the Scriptures to back up God’s word as I always do. The world will continue to get worse and worse and then God will remove all believers dead and living and then begin to pour his wrath, with Christ returning to end the age and to begin that literal thousand years, which is the same thousand years in which Satan will be restricted in the Abyss.

  47. Hey Dmcal. I read your posts above. But really I do not think you read half of mine I use to send you. You are so gun ho to your own opinion.
    Do you still believe there is only ONE GOD in that big debate a year or so ago. You said you received the Holy Ghost and I was really happy to hear that. Has Satan came again and made you return back to the same oh doctrines. Just wondering. I probably give as many scriptures as anybody on these post in the last few years. To really understand a “Teaching” you have to more than just a type writer. Most need Teaching every week on the same things because they do not listen our study themselves. Like below I already sent you the Truth on this but I will one more time.
    You said:
    * The words “Caught up” is translated from the Greek word “Harpazo” which is defined properly as to “seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.”
    Now lets read some scripture Jesus said.

    John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Thief = pilferer; the name is transferred to false teachers, who do not care to instruct men, but abuse their confidence for their own gain.

    John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

    John 10:12- But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, “””seeth”” the “”wolf”” “”coming””, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the “”wolf”” “”CATCHETH”” them, and scattereth the sheep.

    Words defined = See or seeth – same as in Rev. 1:7
    Wolf – defined = 3074 akin to the base of 3022
    1 means — wolf = a wolf; applied figuratively to cruel, greedy, rapacious, destructive men
    2. 3022 from luke (“light”)
    AV — white (25)
    1) light, bright, brilliant; brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white: spoken of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state; shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions; used of white garments as the “”sign”” of innocence and purity of the soul; spoken of the whitening colour of ripening grain

    Now back to Jesus -He is comparing Himself as the Good shepherd.
    And calls Satan – the Wolf -cruel, greedy, rapacious, destructive MEN – all they want to do is get people in their grip to steal, kill and destroy them AWAY from the Good Shepherd.

    COMING 2064 erchomai
    1. to come
    1a) of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public
    2) to come, metaphorically
    2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto
    3) to go, to follow one

    Their are only 2 places a man can go. To the Lord or Satan.
    HERE IS YOUR ANSWER
    And the Wolf “”Catcheth”” them.
    726 harpazo from a derivative of 138; TDNT — 1:472,80; vb
    — catch up — take by force — catch away — pluck — catch — pull
    1) to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly, to snatch out or away

    A. So their It is: So the “”Wolf also “Rapture’s his people”” according to your gospel. I agree they die and pass away and “”are taken out of the World””.
    Yea I can agree with that. Remember this is the same word you quoted for Jesus taking them out in a Rapture.
    B. It cannot be both ways.
    All the above dove tail together like a perfect clove on a perfect hand.

    SUMMARY —
    1. Satans rapture – “coming is the same as Christ coming to His People. Rev. 1:7”
    2. To See — is the “same seeing” as Rev. 1:7 same words
    3. There are 2 kinds of Rapture– the same way. The wolfs to destruction. And Christ to Eternal life. They both have to be snatched away. Their is NO middle Ground.
    4. Christ Snatch’s away HIS Chosen FEW to serve Him right among the public it says so.
    5. Satan snatch’s away his chosen to serve him.
    It’s that simple.

    Don’t go saying now I’m hospitalizing this. It is as literal as you get.

    I hope you read it. I have sent this same message in on this forum before. With NO RETURNS that I remember. Yes it to simple for the intellectual mind to believe.

    I had other things to say. About the “chip” you think is the Mark of Beast. I will talk on that one next. The Lord bless you dmcal. Lets keep it friendly. Ok

    Palisade.

    • Good day all,

      Beacon said:
      “You are so gun ho to your own opinion.”

      Rebut:
      Not my opinion Beacon. I am listing Scripture and expounding exactly what it says. Therefore, it cannot be opinion, but I am merely contending for what God’s word literally states, exposing the false spiritual interpretation that you and others have applied.

      Beacon said:
      “Do you still believe there is only ONE GOD in that big debate a year or so ago. You said you received the Holy Ghost and I was really happy to hear that.”

      Rebut:
      There is only one God who is made up of more than one entity. For the Father is God and the Son is God. They are one God, but individual persons. This truth is evident throughout Scripture. When Jesus told the religious leaders “I and My Father are One” they picked up stones to stone him. And Jesus said to them

      “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

      Even God the Father referred to his Son in Scripture as God:

      “But about the Son he says,

      “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
      by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

      There are too many other Scriptures to quote that show Jesus to be God. I don’t even know why you brought that issue up.

      Regarding receiving the Holy Ghost, I don’t know what you are referring to and that because I received the Holy Spirit over 40 years ago at the time I received Christ. Therefore, I wouldn’t have been announcing in a post that I had received the Holy Spirit a year ago.

      Beacon said:
      “Has Satan came again and made you return back to the same oh doctrines. Just wondering.”

      Rebut:
      Beacon, does God’s word change? Those same old Scriptures are why we can hope in his promises and that because his word does not change. It is you who have deviated from the truth by spiritualizing biblical teachings.

      Without listing all that you said regarding the resurrection and catching away, let’s look at the Scripture on the following post for longevity’s sake:

      (Continued)

    • Continued regarding Beacon:

      The underlying problem here is that you and others who believe as you do, pay no attention to the literal context of Scripture. You apply meanings that have nothing to do with the Scripture. You can list all the definitions of the Greek and Hebrew words that you want, but you fail pay attention to the context. By context, I am referring to the other words in any given passage that support the meaning of the Scripture. Let’s look at the Scripture in question:

      “According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

      * According to the Lord’s own word.

      Jesus himself gave this information to Paul regarding this event as a promise to all believers.

      * we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

      At a yet future time, an event will take place where the Lord will descend from heaven and those in Christ who are still alive at the time of this event will not go up into the air to be gathered to the Lord prior to those who have died in Christ, for the dead in Christ will be resurrected first.

      * After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

      Once the dead in Christ have been resurrected, then we who are still alive will be changed into those glorified bodies and will be caught up in the clouds with those who will have just previously been resurrected. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are still alive will be caught up in the clouds with them where we all meet the Lord in the air.

      * And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.”

      Bringing in Jesus’ promise in John 14:1-3, he then takes the whole group back to the Father’s house that where he is we may be also. Then Paul says, encourage each other regarding this promise, which means that all believers of every generation up until this event happens should be looking forward to the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him. That is the meaning of the Scripture. It is a group event and it will happen in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye.

      Beacon said:
      “John 10:12- But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, “””seeth”” the “”wolf”” “”coming””, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the “”wolf”” “”CATCHETH”” them, and scattereth the sheep.”

      Here is the actual Scripture that you are quoting from:

      “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.”

      Rebut:
      First of all, this parable is directed at the Pharisees as leaders of the people. We know this because the parable starts off in John 10:1 as follows:

      “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.”

      Therefore, we know that Jesus is speaking metaphorically regarding the Pharisees and the religious leaders as those being the hired hands, as the leaders of the people of Israel. As I have been saying, it is important to pay attention to the context within the Scripture. That being said, though the word Harpazo translated as “snatches them” is used here, it is not speaking of Harpazo in the same manner as with the “catching away” in 1 Thes.4:16. There are two words in the context that support the idea of being caught up into the sky, one is, “Clouds” as in, “we who are still alive and are left will be caught up in the clouds” and the word “Air” as in, “caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” These two words “clouds” and “air” support the idea of both groups meeting the Lord above the earth in the sky. The word “Snatching away” here in John 10:12 according to the context refers to the wolf snatching the sheep as to “seize them” which is followed by the words “Scatters the Sheep.” Where in 1 thes.4:16 the meaning of the word is in reference to believers in Christ, dead and living, being snatched up into the air. The same meaning of the word is used when referring to Paul when he was “caught up” to the third heaven, as well as the Male child in Rev.12 being “Snatched up” to God and to his throne. The context is very important when interpreting Scripture, which you seem to ignore.

      To recap, A time is coming when the Lord will descend from heaven bringing with him the souls/spirits of those who will have died in Christ and their bodies will be changed into those glorified bodies and will rise from the grave up into the clouds and be united with their soul/spirits. Then, those believers in Christ who are still alive, their bodies will be changed from this current body that was sown in a body that decays into a body that will not decay, from a body that was sown in dishonor (sinful nature) to a glorified body, and from a body that was sown in weakness to a body that will have power and whatever other heavenly characteristics God will give to it. This is the event that all true Christians are waiting for and anticipating.

    • Beacon said:
      “4. Christ Snatch’s away HIS Chosen FEW to serve Him right among the public it says so.”

      Rebut:
      As previously proven, Christ does not snatch his chosen few to serve him among the public. You are distorting the Scripture! The Scripture clearly states that this will be a snatching away up into the air to meet the Lord. As I have already have shown, the words “Clouds” and “Air” are used in the context of the Scripture and they must be acknowledged when interpreting the Scripture. When the resurrection and the snatching away takes place, the Scripture is clear that we will meet Jesus in the air and will return with him to the Father’s house, which is in heaven. That event will be followed by the revealing of the antichrist and the wrath of God, which is why the living believers are being snatched up and that because we are not appointed to suffer wrath.

      Beacon said:
      “I had other things to say. About the “chip” you think is the Mark of Beast.”

      Rebut:
      There is nothing for you to say Beacon and that because RFID chip implants in the hand are already taking place. The very fact that we have this technology and are using is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God’s word. Now, I know that you, just like the others who believe as you do that, you are going to claim that anyone who observes the Sabbath on Sunday has received the mark of the beast and that it is not a literal mark, is not speaking about a literal hand and is not speaking about a literal forehead. Yet, that is exactly what the Scripture states, a real mark, real hand and real forehead. It amazes me that, we have that very thing happening today where people are being implanted with the RFID chips and you people who have been taught your interpretation ignore this fact. I’m guessing that those who believe as you do will be standing in line doing exactly what the word of God warns us about regarding the mark. At least a good rule of thumb would be to never receive anything on or under the skin that will allow an individual to be able to credit and debit their bank accounts (Buying and selling). I have been watching the evolution of this electronic crediting and debiting of this system for 35 years or so, ever since the first ATM’s came out. Today everyone makes their purchases electronically via the debit or credit card through the use of multiple devices such as the home computer, iPhone or any number of other devices. This system of electronic crediting and debiting is going to continue to increase in use and evolve, which will lead to that one device that will be placed in the hand or the forehead which will eventually be the only way that an individual will be able to perform crediting and debiting to ones bank account

      This is also a good example of the dangers of the spiritualizing of Scripture in that, according to their interpretation they claim that an individual has already received the mark of the beast if an individual observes the Sabbath on Sunday, which is interesting especially when Jesus said, “The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.” Also of importance is that the word “Sabbath” is nowhere to be found in the Scripture regarding the mark and in fact the word does not even appear in the book of Revelation at all. Furthermore, there is nothing in the Scripture that would lead the reader to that conclusion. It is all conjecture! There is no basis for that interpretation whatsoever. You would think that if observance of the Sabbath on Sunday was figurative for the receiving of the mark of the beast and given the fact that it is so detrimental to an individuals eternal life, that it would at least be mentioned plainly in Scripture, yet it is nowhere to be found. We don’t find anything mentioned about it in any of the rebukes in the letters to the seven churches nor anywhere in the NT. You’d think that it would at least be mentioned plainly somewhere in Scripture so that there would be no confusion about it, yet there isn’t a word. The only way that they can come up with that interpretation is to concoct it.

      They say, the hand is figurative representing action and the forehead is figurative for making a choice. Again, pure conjecture! If one reads the Scripture regarding the references to the mark of the beast just as it is stated, it is very easy to understand and that it means exactly what it says. In his vision, John had nothing to compare to what he is seeing of the future and that because there was no technology to compare it with during his time. Therefore, the closest he could come to regarding the mark was the word “charagma” defined as an etching, engraving, stamp, branding, etc.

      Therefore, if you read the Scripture in its literal sense, just as it is written, the false prophet is going to force all people great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, meaning everyone, to receive that mark in the literal hand or literal forehead and without that mark no one will be able to buy or sell and that because without it, no one will be able to access their bank accounts electronically to be able credit and debit it. Just like now, if cash and checks were obsolete and the only way to be able to make purchases was via the swiping of their card, then if they did not have a card they would not be able to perform electronic crediting or debiting to their bank accounts.

      And finally, not to sound unloving, by your teachings you are not my brother, but a false teacher, an enemy of Christ. By these teachings you distort the word of God and lead people astray. Paul, when referring to Hymenaeus and Philetus who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, referred to it as Godless chatter that would spread like gangrene and that it was destroying the faith of some. And also because of this teaching that they had departed from the truth. That being said, it is the same today for anyone who is teaching that the resurrection has already taken place or even worse, that there is no bodily resurrection.

      • So if the “mark of the beast” is an implant under the skin, what is the relevance of the number 666?

        The prophecy says you can’t buy without this number, not that you can’t buy without an implant !

  48. dmcal I sent you a pretty long post. But it did not make it to you. So I will have to do it again.

  49. The babe in Christ will recite a prayer, or come upon one of his own thoughts, but there is no power in that prayer. When the Holy Spirit controls your prayer words will come out that cannot be spoken except by the Holy Spirit. This is “speaking in tongues, and not the mumblings of a pentecostal. The Prayer led by the Holy Spirit will cut to the marrow. You will never learn how to pray like this without Holy Spirit revelation.

  50. to Dmcal or whoever.
    John 10:10 Rapture – 6: 25-15 dmcal
    John 10:10 The “thief cometh” not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am “come” that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
    JOHN 10:11- I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
    JOHN 10:12 – But he that is an “hireling“, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

    Wolf’s – attributes
    Hireling – 3409 from 3408; Hire – to let out for hire – reward — wages
    Thief – 2812 from 2813 — thief
    1) an embezzler, pilferer; the name is transferred to false teachers, who do not care to instruct men, but abuse their confidence for their own gain.

    John 10-10 – thief cometh – I am “come”
    Both “cometh” and Come are same words in-
    Rev. 1:7 same as Cometh and come in John 10-12

    Rev. 1:7 – 2064 – erchomai middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the “present” and “imperfect tenses“,
    come (616)
    1) to come
    1a) of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public
    2) to come, metaphorically
    2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto
    3) to go, to follow one

    John 10:12
    “seeth the wolf coming“, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
    SEETH =334 theoreo – see – behold- perceive- look on
    1) to be a spectator, look at, behold; to view mentally, consider
    2.to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one
    3074 » lukos {loo’-kos} luvkoß perhaps akin to the base of 3022 (from the whitish hair); TDNT — 4:308,540; n m

    AV — wolf (6) – satan
    1) a wolf; applied figuratively to cruel, greedy, rapacious, destructive men
    2. Satan depicted as a wolf – are the satans of this world being “”caught up into evil characteristics“”.
    3. But the Good Shepherd follower’s are “caught up unto Christ Characteristics” 3022 from luke (“light”)
    Defined as — white light, bright, brilliant; brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white: spoken of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state; shining or white garments worn on festive or state occasions; used of white garments as the “”sign of innocence and purity of the soul; spoken of the whitening colour of ripening grain””
    4. Jesus Catch’s His Bride and puts them into the Barn of safety.

    Now the PUNCH LINE
    Jh. 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the “wolf coming“ , and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

    Wolf “”catcheth”” them and scattered the sheep. Satan in other words stole them to be his own. = raptured them into his evil spirit empire of the world.
    WOLF CATCHETH THEM
    Catcheth defined here is 726 = “ harpazo” from a derivative of 138; — catch up — take by force — catch away – pluck — catch — pull -1) to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly, to snatch out or away

    Sinners and Saints do get – “Caught up” in one of the two Characteristics. Yes indeed – and this is just a literal verse and not spiritualizing anything. Its just a fact.

    Being Caught – means take by force, catch away, pluck, Pull, to seize, carry off by force, to seize on, CLAIM to one’s self eagerly, To snatch out of away.
    This is the truth about the Rapture and Coming of Christ-

    AV — choose (3)
    1) to take for oneself, to prefer, choose
    2) to choose by vote, elect to office
    Last but not least:
    Satan has many different faces. To deceive and catch away Gods people. With his “chain of circumstances” he can sway many people into wrath to be destroy. Called the present World we live in.
    I leave you with this. There are 616 words of Come or Cometh in the N.T. Take a study on them . I have already done it years ago. Jesus come and showed himself for 3-½ years to the public. He taught them about Salvation and the end of the World. Matt. 24 is history. He was speaking to that Generation. The fall of Israel and the destroying of the Temple and all came in that chapter along with Matt. 23. He gave that church generation 8 woes to them.
    And they never heeded His Message at all. And went into desolation and the end of their Church ages and wiped out Temple worship for good. Satan will always give you little things to make you believe in the rapture, temple rebuilding, And tells you to always look in the future. Matt. 23 they could not understand Jesus as the Messiah. Just a country boy. Yet God himself.

    Palisade.

    Ps. Dmcal – I hope you read this with careful attention. Not just scan it. And then come back with something else and not even discuss this matter. The Message in Jesus day was a strange Message. It was foreign to Israel. They were waiting on a great coming of Elijah and then would come the Son of God the Messiah. And missed both of them. It was so humble they could not believe it. Jesus was so down to earth. Yet so high they could not understand His parables even.

  51. Millennium – Rapture —- to all
    dmcal said – No, I didn’t say that we will get out of the Great tribulation by a rapture into the Millennium. According to Scripture, the thousand years (millennium) will begin when Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

    All the “promises of God” and what He has done for us on the Cross and Resurrection is all below. Its speaking of the NOW Millennium not in some future. If not then the Church of Jesus Christ has not promised them all things the same. The first 6 church ages must have got robbed and we get it all. “That is the theory of the Futurists.”

    1. You must understand that when Christ rose from the dead. “All things changed” the Old heaven and Earth died. Christ brought a BRAND NEW CREATION = N.T that came with a New Tree of life in it again.
    Rev. 3:14. Creation defined below
    2937 -the act of founding, establishing, building etc
    2936 -i.e. to completely change or transform. — possess — purchase
    — provide — obtain
    1) to acquire, get, or procure a thing for one’s self, to possess; to marry a wife
    A. Futurist are still waiting to get Married to God.

    Christ blood and Resurrection brought a brand new Creation. Did the devil have a chain on Him. NO He was the “Lamb and the Lion” come to us.
    2. Jesus bought back the “Tree of life” do we understand what that means.
    We Back into Paradise = Heaven on earth. The Tree of Life will never die again for the Bride and Believers of the N.T.
    3. Christ has already Come and is still here in the “Presence of the Public and His Remnant” by the Holy Spirit.

    Millennium
    1. Yes it includes Healing, No Conscience of sin, They in the sea of forgetfulness. He provides Grace and Love and not just a law of principles that no one can live by without God having Mercy on all of us. Jew and Gentile

    2. Rev. 1: 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    Rev. 1:6 – And “”hath”” = past tense – made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    3. Futurist still waiting to become Kings and Priest in a Future Millennium.
    Pet. 1 Pet. 2:9 But ye are a “chosen generation”, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    A. This Holy Nation and generation was in Peters day. right then.
    B. Peters day was “hath” – we are still in that generation NOW still the same. Christ has not changed a bit. In Every age of the Church.

    4. Jesus built HIS BRIDE a Brand NEW JERUSALEM to dwell in NOW if you are a Overcomer. Every promise has a reward to it.

    5. . We will never die. Jesus life and resurrection gave us Eternal life.

    6. He has our suffering covered as well. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Promise and Reward

    7. Rev. 2: 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till “”I COME””.
    Come 2240 heko a primary verb; — come
    1) to have come, have arrived, be present; metaphorically to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly); metaphorically, to come upon one, of things endured
    a this is pretty plain and cut and dried. Literally
    b. the above church age is the 3rd. Church age.

    8. Rev. 2: 26 And ( he) = believer – that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the “END”, to him= that believer will I give power over the “nations:” till he dies of old age.
    Answer- the Bride is not of this World or any Nation’s. We live in the world but not of it. The Bride is living in the Kingdom of God NOW by the Holy Spirit which is the Word, and Christ Anointing – If Christ reigns NOW then we also reign with HIM NOW. We are HIS WIFE.

    Rev. 2:27 And HE ( and the Bride) shall “”rule them with a rod of iron””; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
    Rev. 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called “””The Word of God. “”” Note if you possess the Holy Spirit and have Overcome the Worlds Characteristics. We all got to do it by the “Word of God” to possess ALL things NOW. Proving this is the Wife of Christ the Bride walking in HIS Footsteps. Just as the 1st Century walked.
    Rev. 19:14- And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    A. Them armies are everyone that lived in the seven church ages from 1st. Century to NOW century. We have been given the Morning STAR to us that Overcome. Its time we all started to believing it.
    B. To Overcome is becoming a “Adopted Son” that walks and talks and acts like the Lord Jesus Christ. Taking care of the Fathers BUSINESS. That is what its all about then and now. If we have NO Interest in getting tutored by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit. Then God does not have to take you in to His way of Life. And you could be lost forever.

    9. The Millennium is the Kingdom of God that Christ left us giving us power to Overcome all obstacles. Even Death. The Problem is this. We do not walk as did Christ to receive of all His GREAT promises HE has left us.
    He is our Tree of life and like Adam we can reign again.

    10. Now somebody will say. The Reigning come’s last in the 7th. age Overcomers only. As the Futurist think as well. But you are wrong on that. The disciples proved they Reigned over the Jews Sanhedrin
    and Rome as well. You could not get them to bow down to inferior organization’s or Nations. You might say well they were martyred. Well we might get martyred as well.
    Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Look at this lukewarm mess we have today. I don’t say this. Jesus says this.
    We have put Him on the outside and won’t let HIM in our Hearts and Soul anymore. How would you expect to see the Millennium in our lives we live today. We “crave intellectualism” over the “Power of the Holy Spirit” and plain Word of God. I take inventory of myself as well. Am I doing all I can for Christ sake not my own sake.

    BOTTOM LINE DMCAL – yes you have to be raised up, caught up, translated, raptured, quickened, morphed etc. etc. Into the Tree of Life or the Tree of Death. Whatever your soul craves will rapture you. Your Revelation is your rapture. Think about that all who have read this. Your heart and soul and body either love’s the World our Love’s the Word.
    Where is our Revelation today. Do we always feed it through the Word of God. Cannot we get our minds to go back to the O.T and N.T Bible ages and see its only a “remnant” in each and every age that pass the test. I challenge you on that statement. Are you listening to easy word pastors who love to sway you into seducing doctrine’s of easy believing. Its so easy to follow the multitudes. Ask any prophet and Jesus Christ. They could not be understood till they was gone on. Any present generation has the same problem.

    Palisade

    • Just like with every biblical subject it must be confirmed and supported by Scripture.

      Beacon said:
      “All the “promises of God” and what He has done for us on the Cross and Resurrection is all below. Its speaking of the NOW Millennium not in some future.”

      The thousand year period takes place after the wrath of God has been poured out and Jesus returns to end the age. Here are some ot the characteristics of that coming thousand year period:

      He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples.
      They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. (Isa.2:4)

      The above Scripture has yet to be fulfilled, for there has been no time in the history of mankind when the nations of the world have beaten their weapons into plowshares and pruning hooks and where they have not trained for war. As you can clearly see today all nations continue to train for war and will continue to do so until after the Lord returns to end the age and begin his thousand year reign. The reference to the “NOW Millennium” is complete conjecture and is erroneously redefined by Beacon, for Scripture simply states it as “a thousan years.”

      Beacon said:
      “If not then the Church of Jesus Christ has not promised them all things the same. The first 6 church ages must have got robbed and we get it all. “That is the theory of the Futurists.”

      First of all, believers are not looking forward to the thousand years, but for the appearing of our Lord to be gathered to him. Those who will go into the thousand year period will be those great tribulation saints and the woman Israel who will make it through to the end of the great tribulation period and will be those who will repopulate the earth during that thousand years.

      Furthermore, there is no such thing as “6 Church ages” but only one, which is the one we are currently in. It started when Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.” The end of the age will come when Jesus returns to the earth as described in Rev.19:11-21.

      Here are some other characteristics that will define the millennial period:

      =====================================

      “The wolf will live with the lamb,

      the leopard will lie down with the goat,

      the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;

      and a little child will lead them.

      The cow will feed with the bear,

      their young will lie down together,

      and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

      The infant will play near the cobra’s den,

      and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

      They will neither harm nor destroy

      on all my holy mountain,

      for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord

      as the waters cover the sea.

      ===================================

      During the millennial period when the Lord is ruling on the throne of David from Jerusalem in fulfillment of prophecy, prey and predator animals will be at peace with each other. There has never been a time after the flood where the above Scripture has been fulfilled. This demonstrates a literal thousand years and not a “Now Millennium.” You claim a “NOW Millennium” without taking into consideration the other prophesies regarding that same time period. Case in point, when has the Lion ever eaten straw like the Ox? That would be, Never! None of those things have been fulfilled and that because it is still future. After Christ has returned to end the age and the thousand years begins, there will no longer be prey and predator animals, for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the entire earth and there will be peace.

      • (Continued)

        Beacon said:
        “1. You must understand that when Christ rose from the dead. “All things changed” the Old heaven and Earth died. Christ brought a BRAND NEW CREATION = N.T that came with a New Tree of life in it again.”

        ================================

        Rebut:
        Again, the above is just another example of spiritualizing Scripture. The word of God makes it very clear that God is literally going to create a new heaven, new earth and a New Jersalem. Regarding this in Revelation John says:

        “Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.” (Rev.21:1-2)

        The creation of the new heaven, new earth takes place after the Lord’s thousand year reign and the after the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-14). Notice in the verse above the Scripture states that “the first heaven and the first earth had passed away” that is, they depart and a new literal heaven and a new literal earth are created. If old heaven and earth died when Christ rose from the dead and we are living in the new spiritual heaven and earth, why then would Peter say the following?

        “But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.” (2 Pet.3:12)

        Peter said this many years after Christ had risen and ascended to heaven and he spoke of it in the future tense and therefore, Christ’s rising from the dead does not represent a spiritual new heaven and new earth. Furthermore, Peter also says that the current heavens will be destroyed by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat (1 Pet.3:13) which would demonstrate the literal passing away of this current heaven and earth and the creation of a literal new heaven and new earth. The Lord’s promises are real, literal, promises that we can hope in and look forward to.

        Regarding the tree of life, Scripture states the following:

        “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.” (Rev.22:1-2) That being said, we will not see the tree of life until we enter in through the gates into the New Jersalem.

        Conclusion: God is going to create a literal new heaven, a literal new earth and a literal new Jerusalem according to his word. This will be the eternal state. The new heaven will have no sun or moon to shine on the new earth and the new Jerusalem, because God will provide the light (Rev.21:23,22:5). There will also be no ocean/sea on the new earth (Rev.21:1).

        Just as a reminder to Beacon, in the post above there are no references to other teachers, websites, videos or anything else except for the word of God complete with Scripture location. Understand this, by spiritualizing these things you are guilting of distorting the word of God and thereby taking away the true meaning of Scripture (See Rev.22:19)

        If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

    • (Continued)

      Beacon said:
      “A. Futurist are still waiting to get Married to God”

      I’m not waiting to get married to God, for I already part of the body of Christ and am apart of the bride. But, there is going to be a literal wedding feast in literal heaven where all the faithful will be gathered together to drink the fruit of the vine with Jesus in his Father’s kingdom which would refer to literal heaven and does not refer to a kingdom of heaven on earth, which would be a contridiction of terms.

      Beacon said:
      “Christ blood and Resurrection brought a brand new Creation. Did the devil have a chain on Him.”

      Rebut:
      He doesn’t have a chain on him just yet, for Satan doesn’t get literally bound in the Abyss until after Christ returns to end the age, which takes place after the great tribulation period, which is still to come. When Christ lived a perfect life in the flesh being without sin but paying the penalty for sin, he disarmed the powers of darkness by freeing us from the law which we were unable to fulfill. Now since the punishment for sin has been provided, those whose faith is in Christ are credited with righteousness, being freed from the punishment that comes from breaking the law that stood opposed to us and brought us death. Not because there was anything wrong with the Law, for the law is holy and righteous, but we are sold to sin and are unable to keep the law and are always breaking it and so Christ met the righteous requirements of the law perfectly on our behalf. Now we are not under the law, but follow Christ and are led by the Spirit.

      “But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.”
      (Rom.7:16)

      Beacon said:
      “Jesus built HIS BRIDE a Brand NEW JERUSALEM to dwell in NOW if you are a Overcomer.”

      Rebut:
      As previously shown, the New Jerusalem is a real city which is currently in heaven and which will come down out of the heaven once the new heaven and new earth have been created (Rev.21 & 22). It is not some mystical, spiritual city that can’t be touched or seen, but a real city with twelve real gates each made of a single pearl, made of pure gold, having twelve foundation and garnished with every kind of precious stone. Inside of it will be the the literal tree of life bearing twelve crops of fruit. It’s a real city people, not a spiritual one!

    • (Continued)

      Beacon said:
      “Rev. 2:27 And HE ( and the Bride) shall “”rule them with a rod of iron”” as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.”

      The above Scripture is not currently happening, for neither believers nor Jesus is ruling the nations with a rod of iron. This is in reference to how he and we with him, will rule during that literal thousand years.

      Beacon said:
      “The Millennium is the Kingdom of God that Christ left us giving us power to Overcome all obstacles.”

      The millennium is an age that has yet to begin, but according to the chronology of Revelation, it will begin after the great tribulation period ushering in the Lord’s return, after the beast and the false prophet have been thrown alive into the lake of fire, and after Satan has been restricted in the Abyss so that he is unable to deceive the nations anymore during Christ’s thousand year reign.

      Beacon said:
      “Now somebody will say. The Reigning come’s last in the 7th. age”

      Rebut:
      As was previously stated in another post, we have not gone through multiple ages! There is only ONE age which is the one we are currently in. When Christ returns this age will end and the millennial age will begin. The end of the age signals the end of human goverment and the beginning of Christ’s. Regarding this age Jesus said:

      ==============================================
      “He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man.The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one,and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

      “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
      =============================================

      Therefore, when Jesus returns to the earth it ends this present age. I have no idea where you are getting the idea that the church has gone through multiple ages, for you will not find this anywhere to in Scripture.

      Beacon said:
      “Rev. 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

      Rebut:
      Those that are being spoken of in the verse above is in reference to those great tribulation saints (GTS) introduced in Rev.7:9-17 who will become believers during the tribualtion/great tribulation period. They are the same group who are being spoken of in Rev.20:4-5 which says:

      “And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

      They will not love their lives so much as to resist death by not worshiping the beast, his image nor by receiving his mark. Like Meshach, Shadrach and abednego, they would rather be killed then to renounce Christ and save their own lives. All believers should have this same spirit. That being said, the GTS are who is in view here and not the church. In fact, after the last word in chapter 3, you will not find the word Ekklesia/Church anywhere in the narrative. The next and only time you will find the word church is outside the narrative in Rev.22:16. The church is gone before the first seal is opened.

      Beaon said:
      “Look at this lukewarm mess we have today. I don’t say this. Jesus says this. We have put Him on the outside and won’t let HIM in our Hearts and Soul anymore.”

      Rebut:
      Not everyone is in the condition that you mentioned above. And if there are any that are in that condition, then they need to heed the Lord’s rebuke and repent. That’s what the letters to the churches are for. For the reader, If the shoe fits! For those who are guilty of any of the Lord’s rebukes, if they repent, then they will be in good standing with God. None of those rebukes applies to everyone and it doesn’t have to be a permenant condition for those who are guilty of them.

      Beacon said:
      “BOTTOM LINE DMCAL – yes you have to be raised up, caught up, translated, raptured, quickened, morphed etc. etc. Into the Tree of Life or the Tree of Death. Whatever your soul craves will rapture you.”

      Rebut:
      Above, you speak of the resurrection and catching away as though it was a fantasy, but Scripture speaks of it as an actual group event that is going to happen to all true believers, both dead and living which is still future. The Lord gave us this promise so that we would always be watching, waiting and ready for his return, which is why regarding this event Pauls says, “Comfort one another with these words.” Furthermore, what you said “raised up, caught up, translated, raptured, quickened, morphed etc. etc. Into the Tree of Life or the Tree of Death” makes no sense at all. We are not being resurrected and caught up into the tree of life. As Scripture demonstrates, the tree of life is a real tree and will reside in the New Jerusalem on either side of the river of life which flows down the middle of the great street of the city. Continuing on, this also makes no sense “Whatever your soul craves will rapture you.” Again, it is the Lord who is going to descend from heaven and will resurrect the dead believers and then change and catch up all living believers to meet him in the air and then take us back to the Father’s house. Not the Father’s house on earth, but the Father’s house in heaven.

      Beacon said:
      “Are you listening to easy word pastors who love to sway you into seducing doctrine’s of easy believing. Its so easy to follow the multitudes. ”

      Rebut:
      As I previously stated, I am not a follwer of any of the mainline preachers. I don’t follow the teachings of men. I have my bible here at work and I read it on a daily basis and that is where I get my information from. That said, you will never find me quoting from anyone else’s teachings, or directing anyone to someone else’s website, or teaching videos, but only what I have read in Scripture which is why I provide the chapter and verse to back up what I am proclaiming.

      Beacon said:
      “Ask any prophet and Jesus Christ. They could not be understood till they was gone on. Any present generation has the same problem. ”

      Rebut:
      What you said above is not true, for today we have the benefit of what was not understood by the disciples, but is made know to us by them through the Scriptures. For regarding the word of God and our understanding, Scripture states the following:

      “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Tim.3:16)

      If we couldn’t understand the Scriptures, then we could not perform the above and that because without being able to understand God’s word we would not be thoroughly equipped.

      I am not against you personally Beacon, but I am against what you are teaching and that because it is false. You need to repent and believe what the word of God teaches and stop spiritualizing everything.

  52. To All Believers
    Notice: Overcomers are in the Church ages. Why ? That’s when we have to rely on Jesus Christ to get us Over any circumstance and trials while Overcoming in this world. The Bride of Christ are the Overcomers. And The Lord gave us all things to overcome with while “living on this earth”.

    When you die and in Heaven we won’t need to be Overcomers anymore.
    Stop and think about what is said here. After OUR Holy Spirit sheds it “snake skin” we are Spirit beings with New Bodies. Living with all the rest of the saints that have gone on. If you go to Heaven then you was an Overcomer. BUT it starts on Earth first.
    A. When we let the Holy Spirit kill the flesh man – God glorifies us NOW.
    B. Your name was always on the Overcomers list.

    It proves itself and is so simple to understand. We living in the “Kingdom” of God “NOW” while living in the Earth and our “”Spirit”” is experiencing a “”Flesh body”” to live in just as Christ had to do while on earth. We were with Christ from the Beginning of Creation and God placed our names in the Lambs Book of Life and knew us before we were even born. We Are the Chosen of God if you can receive that.

    For any that would doubt what Jesus did for us just remember.

    Jesus said:
    John 3:12 If I have told you “earthly things, and ye believe not,” how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    JOHN 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    a. Jesus said He was in Heaven and yet in Earth – NOW – He was talking to people while he said this. No wonder its just like today we “Limit” the Holy One of Israel. Ps. 78 ? We are so carnal when we start are journey amen.

    JOHN 3:14- And as Moses lifted up the “”serpent”” in the wilderness, even so must the “”Son of man be lifted up””:
    a. Every Son of man has to go through what Jesus did. Killing of the flesh man while living on earth. To be as Overcomers and also receive your GLORIFIED Body while still living in Earth.

    Rom. 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also GLORIFIED. Making the Bride his OVERCOMERS while ON EARTH.

    a. Remember Jesus had NO sin and we know He was God in Flesh Body and He Rose from the dead. Yet He also stayed Pure His whole life which no one could ever do. He was Begotten by the “Spoken Word of God”. To be God in a flesh body and sinless as a Lamb to die for His Bride. So they also while on earth could Overcome ALL things. They had POWER over all sin as well.
    b. Yes indeed that Serpent man = flesh body has to be crucified with Christ. For us to Raise from the dead and be Overcomers NOW. That happens while we LIVE ON THIS EARTH.
    c. Also sinners saved by Grace and Filled with the Holy Spirit – also can enjoy a Glorified Body while on earth cause we have crucified it. In other words we the chosen have been chosen for that purpose. To shine to others and our Father. We are the Little Jesus’s on Earth.

    Glorified means:
    Glorified – 1392 doxazo from 1391;
    — glorify — honour — have glory — magnify — make glorious — full of glory
    1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
    2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
    3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
    4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
    4a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
    4b) to make renowned, render illustrious, i.e. to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

    When they looked at Jesus “Flesh” Body on the Cross. They were looking at Satan Crucified forever. Christ Resurrection proves satan lost all “his power” over Christs seed = The Overcomer amen

    Now for all the skeptics. Yes satan is loosed for a little season of time all through the Church ages. Same in our 7th. age. its Gross darkness but Christ Church their have to be Overcomers even in this dark hour. That’s what Christ is telling us in Rev. 2 and 3. its the same as 2,000 years ago.

    Satan loosed for a little season:
    When I first got saved I did not Overcome all things at once. I walked in the purity of His love, good conscience, full of the Holy Ghost yet satan tried his best to make me fail. And I sure fell at times. Miserably.
    a. Did Christ have to deal with Satan as well. For a little season- of course.
    b. Did Christ Overcome it all. While on EARTH yes.
    c. Christ told His Overcomers – they will be baptized as well in his afflictions. Cause the servant is NOT ABOVE THE MASTER. And for a season they endured great tribulations. But they OVERCOME it. Not in the sweet bye and bye but in reality while living on Earth. The Older I get the More closer i get to understanding His great Plan of Deliverance =salvation

    But we today have leaned our Ears to False prophets of all kinds. We are flooded by them. Just like in Israel. They become Egypt and Babylon and perished. All except the remnant. And those that were lucky enough to escape to other countries.

    The Holy Ghost is the Most powerful force on this planet. If mixed with the Spoken Word of God. Its got to be in tune with the rest of the Bible.

    Palisade

  53. Amen!!

  54. Praise God Agust – I usely do not get amen’s on here.

    God bless you
    Palisade

  55. Beacon and Agust,

    You received well! HIS Spirit is being poured out. Now we must be servants.

    Some just can’t receive the words because of the self. Rid your “self” from “yourself” and receive the truth and that will set you free.

    CV

  56. Yea CV and Agust
    The Spirit of the Antichrist!
    You see many people are talking about looking for the One person of Antichrist. However there is also something called “the spirit of the Antichrist” and whether its politics, economics, music, hollywood, religion, science or the environmental agenda, the spirit of the Antichrist has infiltrated every aspect of society and has in one of the most lethal ways conditioned us to not even be aware of the changes taking place which are propelling us rapidly into the clutches of a one world government.

    Palisade

    • The spirit of the antichrist is defined in 1 John 4:3 as, “every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus.” Therefore, anyone who does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah has that same type of spirit. But, that does not do away with the fact that Scripture also teaches there is going to be specific person who is going to be revealed at a future time as the literal person of the antichrist, also referred to by Paul as “The man of lawlessness” and as the beast in the book of Revelation. That there is going to be a literal antichrist is very simple to deduce since both he and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire at the time when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. (Rev.19:11-21) Regarding the antichrist, Paul states that

      “he will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Regarding him, in Revelation John echo’s Paul saying:

      He was given power to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.” (Rev.13:7)

      We also know from Scripture that the beast/antichrist will be a literal person and that because the 5th bowl judgment is poured out on the throne of the beast plunging his kingdom into spiritual darkness. (Rev.16:10)

      This antichrist/beast will be the leader of that one world government with ten kings underneath him who will give their power and authority to him. The false prophet will be performing satanic counterfeit, miracles, signs and wonders for the purpose of giving authentication to the beast who will be proclaiming himself to be God and for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth by those miracles, signs and wonders. (2 Thes.2:9, Rev.13:13,19:20)

  57. Dear dmcal – at this point in our studies in the last few years with you. The best thing I could do for you is give you this link below and it will take you to a complete study of every book in the Revelations. It will teach you something if only you will let it in your mind. Like the Brother said above we got to get rid of ourselves and get into Gods thinking.

    http://revelationrevolution.org

    Get rid of all pride and study just a couple of these Chapters and see if you can understand it more clearly when you done reading just one of them. You are a good man and have a good mind that is for sure. You ought to be able to digest it sooner or later. And you will be so glad you did.

    Check out Rev. 12 – 13 – 14 any of them. Just stay with it. It cannot hurt you that is for sure. I do not believe everything they say but I sure do believe most of what they say. And I was as die hard as you are now. I spent 10 or more years teaching the same thing you teach now. It is not the message for this hour.

    I just read Rev. 14 last night and it is awesome. Very helpful in your studies. See the other side for a few months and then you have something to guide your Holy Ghost to. I love you in the Lord period.

    Palisade

    • Good day to Beacon and all,

      Beacon said:
      “Dear dmcal – at this point in our studies in the last few years with you. The best thing I could do for you is give you this link below and it will take you to a complete study of every book in the Revelations. It will teach you something if only you will let it in your mind. Like the Brother said above we got to get rid of ourselves and get into Gods thinking.

      Rebut:
      Beacon, your suggestion above is the very root of the problem. I have told you from the beginning that the problem is the false teachings of men, Amillennilsm being just one of them. I don’t need to read someone elses studies to know what the word of God is saying. I’m sure that Mormonism, the Witnesses, Roman Catholiciism and every other false teaching out there could quide me to their links as well. It is a very simple issue of believing in what the word of God plainly states and then discerning when you come across what is meant to be symbolic or allegorical. The problem with Amillennialism and others is that they have been led astray and they end up spiritualizing what is meant to be literal.

      Beacon said:
      “Get rid of all pride and study just a couple of these Chapters and see if you can understand it more clearly when you done reading just one of them.”

      Rebut:
      I am not prideful at all when it comes to the word of God, but am merely contending for the truth. If someone comes to me with information that is plausible on any given biblical topic, then I will give it a good look at and most likely already have . But, when it comes to trying to get me to abandon the literal interpretation and replace it with a spiritual or allegorical one, then I am going to shoot it down immediately and that because I know what is symbolic and what literal in the word of God.

      I don’t believe that you understand the severity of what you are believing and teaching! For example, you don’t believe in a resurrection and catching away as demonstrated in 1 Thes.4:13-18, 2 thes.2 and 1 Cor.15:51-3. If one reads these verses in their plain text, they demonstrate that at some point in time, the Lord is going to decsend from heaven and the dead are going to rise first, then those who are still alive and are waiting will be changed in moment and caught up in the clouds with those who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. These Scriptures demonstrate that it will be a group event for the dead and living in Christ and that it will happen in the twinkling of an eye. That paul says, “According to the Lord’s word” shows that this information and promise comes directly from the Lord. Now here is something else that Paul said regarding this event:

      “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.” (2 Tim.2:16-18)

      The above Scripture also demonstrates that the Resurrection is a future, group event. Notice that by these men teaching that the resurrection had already taken place that Paul referred to it as godless chatter, that they were ungodley and that by their teaching they had wandered away from the truth and that by that teaching they were also destroying the faith of some. Therefore, if they were said to have wandered away from the truth by teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, how much more for those who are teaching that there is no resurrection or catching away!

      The reason that Paul said that they were “destroying the faith of some” was because the people of that time knew the teachings that Paul had brought them from the Lord regarding the resurrection, that first the dead would rise and then immediately after that the living would be changed and caught up with them. Therefore, since these guys were teaching that the resurrection had already take place, their concern was why they hadn’t been caught up according to the teaching. Not only that, but they also knew from the teaching that the resurrection and catching away would be followed by the wrath of God. People were also claiming that the resurrection had already taken place which is what prompted the letter that the Thessalonians sent to Paul who in response told them the following:

      “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.”

      Because of some people who were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, that is, our being gathered to the Lord, the Thessalonians were concerned for the same reason and that being that if the resurrection had already taken place, then why were they still on the earth? Why hadn’t they been caught up? They wanted confirmation from Paul regarding this because they were looking forward to and anticipating the resurrection and catching away, demonstrating that they were looking for a literal fulfillment of the resurrection as a group event according to the teaching, the same teachings that we can read right here in 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53.

      Therefore, those today who teach that the resurrection and catching away has already taken place or that there is no lresurrection and catching away are speaking godless chatter, are ungodly and have wandered away from the truth. Unfortunately, unlike the Thessalonians who knew the ramifications of those false teachings, the people of today don’t have a clue nor would they be bothered by it and that, because they don’t read or study the word of God in order to know the difference.

      That being said, because you believe and teach that there is no literal resurrection and catching away according to biblical teachings, but instead spiritualize the event, then you fall under the same status as Hymenaeus and Philetus. You and others have wandered away from the truth by your false teaching. Repent and believe the plain truth of Scripture.

      If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

      • Good point about Jesus return being the same way that He left. Kinda destroys the Rapture “theory”.

        Dan

        • Hi Dan,

          You said:
          “Good point about Jesus return being the same way that He left. Kinda destroys the Rapture “theory”.

          Not at all! The problem that has arisen regarding the resurrection and catching away and the Lord’s return to end the age, is that expositors have made the two events synonymous, when in fact they are two separate events.

          The resurrection and catching away as described in 1 Thes.4:13-18, 2 Thes.2:1 and 1 Cor.15:51-53, is a direct promise from the Lord that the dead are going to rise first and then immediately after that those believers who are still alive will be changed and caught up with them. On the other hand, the Lord’s visual return to the earth after God’s wrath has been poured out will be to end the age and establish his thousand year reign on this present earth. At that time the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, all those who will have been gathered there will be killed by that double-edged sword, which is figurate for the word of God and Satan will be thrown into and restricted in the Abyss during that same thousand years in which Christ will reign. The problem only arises when people interpret both events as the same event.

          In 1 Thes.4:13-18, Paul describes the event of the resurrection, which is then followed by the wrath of God. This is the order that he puts them in. After the resurrection and catching away, he then refers to that event in 1 Thes.5:1-2 as the day of the Lord, which is followed in verse 3 which is the wrath of God. Paul then further states in 1 Thes.5:9 that we are not appointed to suffer God’s wrath. Consequently, if the resurrection of 1 Thes.4:13-18 was to take place when Christ returns to the earth to end the age, then it would put the entire church through God’s wrath and that because Jesus doesn’t return until after his wrath has been completed. Consequently, If the resurrection and catching away was synonymous with Christ’s return to end the age, then one would be hard-pressed to explain who the armies of Rev.19 are who are following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing white clothing. Some say that they are angels, but Rev.17:14 says that they are the Lord’s “called, chosen and faithful followers.” Those designations would not be representing angles, but the redeemed.

          To recap, the problem only arises when a person believes these two events to be the same event instead of them being two separate events. The event of the resurrection and catching away is to remove the dead and the living prior to God’s wrath being poured out on the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The second event of Chris’s visual, physical return will occur after God’s wrath has been completed where the beast and the false prophet will be thrown alive into the lake of fire, the kings, their armies and all who the angels will have brought there will be killed by the double-edged sword and then Satan will be thrown into and restricted into the Abyss during that same thousand years of Christ’s reign. At the beginning of that thousand years of peace, the nations will beat their weapons of war into plow shares and pruning hoods (agricultural tools) and Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. During Christ’s reign the lion will eat straw like the Ox, prey and predator animals will lie down together with their young, if a man fails reach a hundred years of age he will be thought to be cursed and if a man only lives to be a hundred he will be thought to be a mere child, etc. (Isa.11:6-9, 65:20,25). These are just some of the characteristics of the millennial period.

          • dmcal – Thanks you for laying all of this out. It has always been a little confusing to me regarding the rapture, the catching away, the resurrection and God’s wrath. And I end up just trusting in God that what will take place will take place as He intends. But it would be good to have real knowledge about all these events.

            I appreciate you giving scriptural reference, I am going to go to my KJV and read the versus you provided later this evening.

            If I hear you correctly – the rapture and the catching away are one and the same, but separate from the resurrection followed by God’s wrath?

            • Hello Denise, (Sorry for the length)

              It is always edifying and good to hear when someone is hungry for the word of God. If you continue to pray about it and put the time in to study God’s word he will reveal many truths to you. From the first time that I read the book of Revelation I was hooked on end-time events (Eschatology) and even more so now and that was over 40 years ago. To me the book of Revelation is like the Grand Central Station of the bible. It is also the only book that I know of that has a warning for anyone who would add to or take away words from that book (Rev.22:18-19). Although I’m pretty sure that a good rule of thumb would be to not do that with any of his books.

              Regarding your concern, yes, the Rapture and the catching away are both different terms for the same event. The word “Rapture” is not found in Scripture, but comes from the Latin meaning to “Carry off.” I personally don’t like to use the word Rapture, but like to stick with the actual Greek which is the word “Harpazo” which is translated as “Snatching away” and has the idea of “force suddenly exercised.” The word Harpazo is supported by other words in the context such as “clouds” and “Air” which tells us that when we are snatched up it will be in the literal clouds to meet the Lord in the literal air just as the Scripture states. Bellow is one of the main references of Scripture regarding the resurrection and catching away:

              “According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

              The word resurrection is translated from the Greek “Anastasis” which is defined as the following:

              ================================
              386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, “up, again” and 2476 /hístēmi, “to stand”) – literally, “stand up” (or “stand again”), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

              Christ’s physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

              [386 /anástasis (“resurrection”) refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

              =================================

              So the word resurrection always refers to a bodily standing up again of those who have died. Jesus is the example, for he rose bodily on the third day in fulfillment of the prophecy which says, “because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.” (Psalm 16:10) So, Jesus was the first fruits of those who rise from the dead and also a guarantee that all believers who have died will also be raised bodily.

              On the other hand, the “catching away” involves those who are still alive at the time that the resurrection takes place and since they are not dead but still alive, they will just be changed into their glorified bodies at that time and be caught up with those who will have just been resurrected, where according to John 14:1-3 Jesus will take us back to the Father’s house that where he is we may be also.

              The controversy between expositors has always been, when will the event of the resurrection and the catching away of church take place? There are many who cite Rev.20:4 as being the same resurrection as mentioned in 1 Thes.4:16. The problem with this is that, if the church was to be resurrected at Rev.20:4, it would put the entire church through the time of God’s wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer. Just FYI, after the end of chapter 3 you will not see the word church again within the narrative. If one looks closely at Rev.20:4, first, it’s only a resurrection that is taking place and there is no mention of a catching away of the living. Second, those who are resurrected here are those who will have been beheaded because of their testimony for Christ and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast or his image and who had not received his mark. This would definitely put this group as being present during the time of the beast/antichrist’s reign, which would be well into the wrath of God. Therefore, it cannot be the church that is in view here.

              The main problem with expositors that I see regarding the resurrection here in Rev.20:4 are the words “First Resurrection.”
              And the error that many make is that they take that word “First” and make it synonymous with the word “Only” making this resurrection a one time event. However, after looking through Scripture, one begins to see that there are multiple resurrections, including two catchings away.

              * Jesus the first fruits of the first resurrection

              * The Church at his appearing

              * The Male child (A collective name for the 144,000)

              * The two witnessess

              * The Great Tribulation Saints

              All of the above fall under the banner of “first resurrection” and each one happens at different times, so there are phases or stages to the first resurrection. Therefore, they cannot all take place at Rev.20:4. Jesus set the first resurrection in motion as the first of those who rise from the dead (1 Cor.15:20-22), then those who have died in him are next (1 Thes.4:16-18), then the 144,000 who are snatched up to God’s throne (Rev.12:5), the two witnessess (Rev.11:11-12), followed by the great tribulation saints who are seen being raised in Rev.20:4.

              The resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years is the resurrection that a person would not want to be apart of and that because the second death (lake of fire) has power over them. (Rev.20:6, 11-15)

              The best way to read Scripture is that if the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.

            • Hello again Denise,

              Here is the chronological order of events:

              * Building of the Church (on-going)

              * Apostasy (2 Thes.2:1-3)

              * Resurrection and catching away (1 Thes.4:16, 1 Cor.15:51-53)

              * Man of lawlessness/antichrist revealed

              * Wrath of God (seals, trumpets and bowl judgments)

              * Return of Christ to end the age and beginning of the thousand years

  58. In A.D. 33 day became night, and in A.D. 66 night became day. These two miracles broke the covenant of Jeremiah 33:20-21. Thus the Messiah would not rule physically on David’s throne. Instead, Jesus rules the world from a heavenly throne: “[T]he Most High does not live in houses made by men. . . . ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.’” The Messianic kingdom is called the kingdom of heaven in the Gospels because it is centered in heaven. It is here that the saints ultimately experience a blissful, loving existence with Christ after death.

    What about the New Jerusalem?

    The New Jerusalem is the church. Because it is present in both heaven and earth and because the church is destined for heaven, the church is described in the likeness of the Jerusalem that is in heaven mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Galatians 4:26. Testimony from near-death experiences suggests that it exists right now!

    OFTEN-IGNORED SECULAR ROMAN HISTORICAL RECORDS REVEAL THAT MANY, MANY MORE END TIME BIBLE PROPHECIES HAVE BEEN LITERALLY FULFILLED THAN WAS PREVIOUSLY SUPPOSED.
    THE FOLLOWING BARELY SCRATCHES THE SURFACE OF THIS NEW EVIDENCE:

    Palisade

    • Beacon said:
      “In A.D. 33 day became night, and in A.D. 66 night became day. These two miracles broke the covenant of Jeremiah 33:20-21. Thus the Messiah would not rule physically on David’s throne.”

      Here is what Jeremiah 33:20-21 says:

      “This is what the Lord says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne.”

      In other words Beacon, God wasn’t challenging Jeremiah, but God was demonstrating how unbreakable his covenant was that there would in fact be a descendant on the throne of David. The comparison that he used was that just as sure as night and day would always come at their appointed times, so would there be a descendant of king David on the throne. Boy do you others distort and circumventthe Scriptures! That Scripture was meant to show that God’s covenant can’t be broken.

      Beacon said:
      “T]he Most High does not live in houses made by men. . . . ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.’” The Messianic kingdom is called the kingdom of heaven in the Gospels because it is centered in heaven. It is here that the saints ultimately experience a blissful, loving existence with Christ after death.”

      Scripture says:
      “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.”
      (Zech.14:4)

      When Christ returns to end the age, the Scripture above will be fulfilled literally just as it is written.

      Beacon said:
      “The New Jerusalem is the church. Because it is present in both heaven and earth and because the church is destined for heaven, the church is described in the likeness of the Jerusalem that is in heaven mentioned in Hebrews 12:22 and Galatians 4:26. Testimony from near-death experiences suggests that it exists right now!”

      The New Jerusalem is an actual city that will be present during the time of the new heaven and new earth. Anyone who has correctly read Revelation would know this and that because the height, width and deepth of the city is given as well as the thickness of the walls, the river of life will be flowing down the middle of the city with the tree of life on either side of the river, the twelve gates each made from a single pearl with the names of twelve tribes of Israel written on them, twelve foundations in the walls with the names of the twelve apostles written on them, etc., etc., etc.

      “Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”a for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away”

      That fact that this current heaven and earth are said to have passed away would demonstrate that a literal new heaven and new earth are replacing this current heaven and earth. The new Jerusalem is a real city, just as the current city of Jerusalem is a real city.

      All this is is more spiritualizing of the word of God and by doing so you distort and delute the actual meaning of Scripture.

  59. Just a little review in REV. 14 Glory Cloud – God was present
    Whenever God manifested himself to his people, he often did so in the Glory Cloud as he had done in Exodus 3:2, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 19:16-19, Deuteronomy 4:11-14, 2 Samuel 22:8-15, 1 Kings 19:11-13, Psalm 18:6-16, Psalm 50:3, Psalm 97:1-5 and Psalm 144:5, Isaiah 66:15-16 and Ezekiel 1. While amidst the Glory Cloud, God was believed to be present in the company of angelic beings according to Deuteronomy 33:2 and Ezekiel 1. Similarly, Jesus said that he would come on the clouds of heaven in the presence of the angelic host during the second coming according Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38 and Jude 14-15. The expression “coming on the clouds of heaven” is a direct allusion to the coming of Christ in the Glory Cloud as God had so often done in the past. Therefore, the fact that Christ said that he would come on the clouds of heaven is an implicit statement of divinity since the Glory Cloud is the quintessential, incontrovertible sign of the presence of God. Thus this appearance of Christ coming on the literal clouds of the Glory Cloud is the ultimate manifestation of divine glory.
    When the Lord came on the clouds in judgment on a nation he typically came in the midst of cloud and fire or lightning–fire from heaven–according to Exodus 3:2, Exodus 13:21, Exodus 19:16-19, Deuteronomy 4:11-14, 1 Kings 19:11-13 and Psalm 50:3.

    Recall that according to Revelation 8:2 the angels of the seven plagues are angels of the presence of God: “And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.”

    In Revelation 14:14, Jesus is shown sitting on the clouds during his second coming. Though Jesus’ human-like appearance was visible one month earlier amidst the fiery angelic army in the sky during the part of the second coming described in detail in Revelation 19, Jesus’ human-like form would not have been visible here. Just as the substance of the Glory Cloud that guided the Israelites to the Promised Land in Exodus rendered God invisible to the people, Jesus once again pictured in the Glory Cloud in v. 14 would have also likely been invisible. God had come on the clouds in judgment several times in Old Testament history and each time God was seemingly invisible. This is because the Glory Cloud masked his likeness as it had in Exodus. This point is clearest in Psalm 18:9-14. In Psalm 18, God parts the heavens and rides clouds so dark that they block out the light of his presence. Obscured by these clouds, God fires down lightning in anger from his opaque chariot in the sky. In this later aspect of his second coming, Jesus does the same causing the lightning flash that marked the departure of the angels within the temple according to Tacitus: “A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure.”[xiii]

    The Jordan River is exactly 1,600 stadia.[xiv] In v. 20, John sees blood flowing like wine as high as the horses’ bridles for 1,600 stadia. This flood is a metaphor of the destruction of Israel in preparation for its re-creation. Floods are often used in the Bible as a metaphor for an invading army.[xv] This symbolism points to Rome quite well since Rome is represented by the sea throughout the Book of Revelation.
    Hyperbole like that found in v. 20 in which blood is said to flow as high as a horse’s bridle for 1,600 stadia is not uncommon in Hebrew sacred texts and historical accounts of the time. Identical imagery is found in the 1 Enoch, the Midrash and Talmud. I Enoch 100:2-3 reads, “From dawn until the sun sets, they shall slay each other. The horse shall walk through the blood of sinners up to his chest; and the chariot shall sink down up to its top.” Concerning the slaughter of Jewish rebels during the second Jewish revolt in the second century A.D., the following is written in the Midrash: “They [the Roman army under Hadrian] slew the inhabitants [the Jewish rebels of Bethar] until the horses waded in blood up to the nostrils, and the blood rolled along stones of the size of forty se’ ah and flowed into the sea [staining it for] a distance of four miles.”[xva] Concerning the same war, the Midrash also says, “He [Hadrian] immediately surrounded them [the Jewish rebels] with his legions and slaughtered them, so that their blood streamed [to the coast and stained the sea] as far as Cyprus.”[xvb] Concerning this slaughter at Bethar, the Babylonian Talmud uses similar language: “These are the eighty [thousand] trumpets which assembled in the city of Bethar when it was taken and men, women and children were slain in it until their blood ran into the great sea. Do you think this was near? It was a whole mil away.”[xvc]
    Similar hyperbole is found in 2 Kings 21:16 and Ezekiel 32:6. In Ezekiel, Pharaoh is pictured as a sea monster dragged ashore by the Lord and killed. Concerning Pharaoh’s death Ezekiel 32:6 reads, “I will drench the land with your flowing blood all the way to the mountains, and the ravines will be filled with your flesh.” Similar imagery is found in 2 Kings 21:16 which reads, “Moreover, Manasseh shed very much innocent blood until he had filled Jerusalem from one end to another.” A nearly identical expression is found in Revelation 14:20. According to v. 20, the whole length of Israel “from one end to another” was filled with blood. 1,600 stadia is the exact length of the Jordan River and as such is an estimate of the length of Israel “from one end to another.” Interestingly, Josephus also uses similar language to Ezekiel 32:6 and 2 Kings 21:16 in recording the fulfillment of Revelation 14:20: “Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood.”[xvi] And along these same lines concerning the excessively bloody aftermath of the Jewish War, the Talmud records the following claim: “For seven years did the nations of the world cultivate their vineyards with no other manure than the blood of Israel.”[xvia]

    In Matthew 13:39, Jesus says, “The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.” Though the Jews revolted against Rome during the barley harvest, the Roman offensive began at the start of the grape harvest. Under Cestius, Rome began its offensive during the Jewish War around the month of Tishri which was at the start of the grape harvest. This fact accounts for the grape harvest symbolism in vs. 19-20.
    Here the destruction of Israel prior to the siege of Jerusalem is pictured as the crushing of grapes during the grape harvest. This symbolism is not without precedence: In this verse, as in Isaiah 5:7, Israel is symbolized as a vineyard; and as is the case in Lamentations 1:15, the slaughter of the Israelites is represented as grapes being crushed in a winepress. This imagery is clearly presented in Isaiah 63:1-3:
    Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, proclaiming victory, mighty to save.” Why are your garments red like those of one treading the winepress? “I have trodden the winepress alone; from the nations no one was with me. I trampled them in my anger and trod them down in my wrath; their blood spattered my garments, and I stained all my clothing.
    These verses are strikingly similar to the second coming as it is described in Revelation 19:11-15. In these verses Jesus again strides on horseback with garments stained red with blood. His garments are red because he “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty” in Revelation 19:15 as he had also done in Isaiah 63:3. He does this alone according to Isaiah 63:3 which explains why only Jesus’ garments are stained red in Revelation 19:13-14. The fact that blood reaches his horses’ bridle in Revelation 14:20 explains how Jesus’ garments had become stained red with blood in Revelation 19:13 while he sat atop his white horse. Therefore, far from depicting a literal flood of blood over Israel in the first century, Revelation 14:20 ultimately portrays Jesus coming in judgment on Israel as he rides on his white horse shedding blood up to his horse’s bridle as he “treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.” Remember that 1,600 stadia is the exact length of the Jordan River and as such is an estimate of the length of Israel “from one end to another.”

    Palisade

  60. Beacon said:
    “The expression “coming on the clouds of heaven” is a direct allusion to the coming of Christ in the Glory Cloud as God had so often done in the past. Therefore, the fact that Christ said that he would come on the clouds of heaven is an implicit statement of divinity since the Glory Cloud is the quintessential, incontrovertible sign of the presence of God.”

    Not exactly sure what you were going for on this post and that because there was never any point to it. But just so there is no confusion regarding the Lord’s return, when he ends the age he will be arriving on the literal clouds of the sky as many of the Scriptures proclaim:

    “After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.”

    “They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Ergo, he was taken from you visually into heaven with a cloud and will return visually on the clouds.

    “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn [when they see] the Son of Man coming on [the clouds] of heaven, with power and great glory.”

    Notice that the peoples of the earth will see the Lord arriving on the clouds of heaven and will mourn. The clouds that he arrives on are going to be literal clouds and not spiritualized clouds. The Scripture means exactly what it says, as does the following:

    “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” (Rev.1:7)

    The verse here in Rev.1:7 matches that of Mt.24:30. regarding every eye seeing him and that because it states that the nations of the earth will mourn when they see him. We also know from Mt.24:23-27 that Jesus is warning those who will be here prior to and at the time of his return to end the age, that if anyone says, “The Messiah is out in the desert, don’t go look” or “If they say that he is in a secret room, don’t believe it.” Then the Lord makes the reader aware of how they can know when the real Messiah arrives. The reference to the lightning that comes from the east and is seen even in the west, is demonstrating that his arrival will be a main event that will not be missed and will be seen by all people.

    When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, it will be a literal, visual, event. As the angel said when Jesus was being taken up in the cloud, he will return in the same way you saw him go. The fact that the disciples visually saw the Lord go up into heaven in a cloud, demonstrates that he will come back visually as well.

  61. Bro. Dmcal
    You said” “They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    Yea that same generation saw the coming of Jesus Christ coming in His Glory again. In the War of the end of the World. That is a literal statement.
    Even Josephus saw it all. And many others.
    The Gospel says He will come in a twinkling of an eye.
    It also says He will come as a thief in the night.
    The Word of God is the Great White throne judgment. Or else how is Jesus going to judge the world. Its got to be By His Word. Which men have refused or keep it in their heart. Only two. Unbeliever and Real believer.

    If you died today. You have already been judged by Jesus Christ He is the world. the world never could see God. Never. They see all the destruction and darkness and all the seals opened and have no Idea it is Gods doings.

    Palisade.

    • To Beacon and all,

      Beacon said:
      “Yea that same generation saw the coming of Jesus Christ coming in His Glory again.

      For those of you who don’t know what Beacon is referring to, in saying “that same generation saw the coming of Jesus” he is referring to the following Scripture:

      “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” (Mt.24:32-34)

      First of all in contenting for the truth of God’s word, I would advise you to go back and take English 101 all over again. In fact all Preterist’s should do this and that because of their grammatical error in interpreting this Scripture. The disciples asked Jesus what would be the sign of his coming and the end of the age. In Mt.24, Jesus proceeds to lay out all of the signs/events leading up to his physical, visual return to the earth to end the age.

      In the verse above Jesus gives the example that, just as when you see the fig trees and all of trees blossoming you can tell that summer is near, in the same way when you see all of these signs you can know that his arrival is near which ends of the age. Therefore, the proof of identifying his return is by those signs taking place. Then Jesus says, “this generation” will not pass away until all of these things have happened. The Preterist then takes the words “this generation” and applies them to mean “Jesus’ generation,” that is, the one that he is speaking from. By doing this they take the focus off of the signs as being the proof of his return and they force the signs into the generation from which Jesus was speaking, essentially removing the need for the signs and that because he would have just told us that the signs were going to take place in his generation.

      The proper interpretation has to follow the grammar and since Jesus made it very clear that it is the signs that will be the proof of his coming and the end of the age, then “this generation” would have to be referring to the generation where those signs appear. If I were to paraphrase the Scripture in question, It would look something like the following:

      Truly I tell you, this generation where these signs appear, will certainly not pass away until they have all been fulfilled.

      The Preterist’s interpretation cancels out the need for signs and that because they are claiming that after Jesus mentions the signs, he then tells us that they are going to happen in his generation, which consequently defeats the purpose of the signs. Furthermore, Preterist’s have another problem in claiming that the signs would take place in Christ’s generation, as can be seen from the verse that follows immediately after:

      “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Mt.24:36)

      Now, if according to the verse above, that no one knows the day or hour of the Lord’s arrival, not the angels in heaven, nor the Son himself, then how could Jesus tell his listeners that those signs were going to take place in his generation? Again, it is because he was not talking about the generation that he was speaking from, but whatever generation those signs began to appear in. That generation, the one where those signs appear will not pass away until all these things have taken place.

      Preterist’s make the same error when interpreting the following Scripture which says:

      “I tell you the truth, there be some standing here who will not taste of death before they see the kingdom of God.”

      If anyone reading this is interested to know how Preterist’s interpret the above Scripture and what their error is, I would be happy to provide the answers for the asking.

      As the world continues to head towards the day of the Lord, the literal truth of Scripture will become obvious, as events described in Revelation and elsewhere begin to literally come to pass. The question is, will those people who hold to these spiritualized false teachings recognize the error of their ways and be humble enough to admit that error and repent? When you see the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place just as they are written, then you will know that they were meant to be taken literally. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will affect the entire earth and all of its inhabitants and are not just restricted to the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70.

      The promise of the resurrection and catching away of believers is next, which will be followed by the wrath of God and after the wrath, the return of the Lord to end the age and establish his literal millennial kingdom.

  62. Beacon said:
    “The Word of God is the Great White throne judgment”

    Scripture says that the great white throne judgment (GWTJ) is a literal judgment which will take place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. This is a judgment of the unrighteous dead who died throughout history, which will be all of those who will not have had part in the first resurrection. Believers in Christ are not judged at the GWTJ, for those at this judgment are there because they will not have been worthy to partake of the first resurrection and of whom the second death will have power over.

    “Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

    “The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him a thousand years.”

    These who come to life at the end of the thousand years will not have been part of the first resurrection and therefore the second death will have power over them. At the time of this groups resurrection, they will stand before God’s great white throne and the books will be opened which will contain the actions of their entire lives and they will be judged according to them. Anyone’s name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, where they are not annihilated, but where they will suffer conscious, on-going torment in their resurrected bodies suffering the torment of the lake of fire.

    Think hard regarding the things that you are believing and teaching Beacon.

    • dmcal,
      Have you ever heard of the partial preterist viewpoint? People who have held this view include Jonathon Edwards, John Wesley, and John Calvin.
      What Beacon is asking you is, “has Jesus come again within you”?
      Now there are a lot of crazy partial preterists out there, many of which lead to anti-Semitism, and replacement theology, I am not one of them. But there are certain aspects of prophecy which were fulfilled in 70 ad, while others have not been.
      The following wordpress site gives a fair discourse on this viewpoint, though I believe it lacks an understanding of the final week of prophecy for Israel.

      http://kloposmasm.com/tag/partial-preterism/

      Just for summary I copied the descriptive here for those who do not read links.( I Hope it comes out clearly when I post it)

      A.D. 70……………………………………… STILL FUTURE
      A coming (parousia) of Christ ……….The Coming (parousia) of Christ
      A day of the Lord……………………….. The Day of the Lord
      A judgment ………………………………..The (final) Judgment
      The end of the Jewish Age………….. The end of history
      …………………………………………………The Resurrection of the dead
      …………………………………………………The Rapture of the living

      I would also add to this list the yet to be fulfilled final week for Israel spoken of by Daniel, as “still future”. This is perhaps the one thing I share with most dispensationalists, but I do not try to put any part of Revelation Into it.

      Consider some of the facts pointing to this view. The Only NT book written after 70AD is the book of Revelation.
      All the other apostles but John were put to death before 70 AD, as no mention of the destruction of the temple occurs in any of their writings, Thus fulfilling the words of Jesus Towards John:
      Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” 23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?” (John 21:22-23)
      Jesus “was, and is, and is to come.” The Antichrist is described as “was, is not, and is to come” This alone should get you thinking of what beacon has been trying to explain to you. That those to whom Jesus has not come to yet are serving a different master. In the letter to the church at Laodicea, Jesus even says that he will come into them that open the door to Him.
      Then there is the immanency of his coming as expressed in numerous writings by the apostles. Were they just wrong? or did they not know what Jesus meant? Would that not also mean there is an error in the Word of God?
      There is great wisdom in the words that Beacon is expressing to you, if you will hear them. Revelation 12:11 states that we overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony. What is it we are testifying to? To use Paul’s words, “It is not I that live but Christ who lives in me” Gal 2:20. Does Christ Jesus live in you? Do you have the Mind of Christ? Has he come to you and supped with you? Is Jesus Past present and future to you? or is he just past and future to you?
      I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:8)
      And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; (Revelation 2:8)
      Jesus is God with us, Immanuel.

      • Here is pdf sermon of C.H. Spurgeon on colossians 3:16-17 dealing with this topic.
        http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols46-48/chs2679.pdf
        Read the first part in particular, as you will see a progression from where the word of God is studied as a text and a book to becoming a friend that dwells in you. And then “richly” dwells in you.
        16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (Col. 3:16-17)

      • Greeting Agust,

        Agust said:
        “Have you ever heard of the partial preterist viewpoint? People who have held this view include Jonathon Edwards, John Wesley, and John Calvin.”

        Yes, I know what partial preterism is and I don’t ascribe to either full or partial. The only part in Mt.24 that has to do with the destruction of the temple is when Jesus said, “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” And that was it regarding the temple! The information following that has to do with the signs leading up to the physical, visual return of Christ to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. By the way, those people that you mention above, just because they hold to a specific view does not validate that it is the truth, for they are only men. I have the source of all truth at my finger tips, wihch is the word of God. This is where I get my teaching from, not from men.

        Agust said:
        “What Beacon is asking you is, “has Jesus come again within you”?

        When a believer receives Christ into their lives, then the Holy Spirit takes up residency within the believer. There is no “coming again” after you have received him the first time.

        Agust said:
        “Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!” So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?” (John 21:22-23)”

        First, this was just Jesus way of saying to Peter, don’t worry about John! You follow me! Then of course the rumor went out that John would not die until Jesus came, which is explained right in the last half of the verse that it was only a rumor.

        Agust said:
        “Jesus “was, and is, and is to come.”

        The phrase above is in reference to Jesus’ eternal state/nature.

        Agust said:
        “The Antichrist is described as “was, is not, and is to come”

        Here is the verse regarding the beast:

        “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.”

        Once was = he was once in world and not in the Abyss

        Now is not = he is now not in the world but is in the Abyss

        And yet will come = Is currently in the Abyss and will come out

        And for all of those Preterists who believe that the beast is a system and not an actual individual, please see the following:

        “The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”

        So, according to the Scripture above, the beast is an eighth king which would make him a person.

        Who are the seven that the beast belongs to?

        “The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings.”

        Therefore, the beast is a future eighth king who is from the lineage of those seven kings ergo, the beast is not a system, but an actual individual. Here is another scripture which also demonstrates that the beast is an individual:

        “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”

        The fact that the beast and the false prophet are both thrown [alive] into the lake of fire supports the fact that the beast is an actual individual and is not just representing a system.

        Agust said:
        “In the letter to the church at Laodicea, Jesus even says that he will come into them that open the door to Him.

        Here is the actual Scripture:

        “Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.”

        The above Scripture is an inventation to anyone who has not yet received Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and the reference to eat with that person and they with him, is figurative for having fellowship with him. This inventation is related to the one that he gives at the end of the book:

        “The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” (Rev.22:17)

        Agust said:
        “Then there is the imminency of his coming as expressed in numerous writings by the apostles. Were they just wrong? or did they not know what Jesus meant? Would that not also mean there is an error in the Word of God?”

        Not sure where you were going with the above, but I believe according to 1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 that the Lord’s appearing to bodily resurrect the dead and change and catch away the living believers to meet Jesus in the air, is imminent. As far as Christ’s physical, visual return to the earth to end the age and establish his kingdom, there are many signs that must take place prior to that event, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, not to mention the making of the covenant for one ‘seven’ and the setting up of the abomination.

        Agust said:
        “There is great wisdom in the words that Beacon is expressing to you, if you will hear them. ”

        I have heard his words and I don’t agree with them. If there was great wisdom in what he was saying, I would not be contending with him about them and that because his words don’t agree with Scripture. Where I read the plain text of Scripture and believe the literal meaning, Beacon spiritualizes them, which changes God’s intended meaning. The only time that one should symbolize in Revelation is where it is obviously required. Example: a woman clothed with the sun, an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns. One of the major problems today with those interpreting Scripture is their applying symbolism to that which is meant to be literal. They apply metaphors from one Scripture to another without first considering the context and thereby distort the meaning.

  63. Hey dmcal we could never explain and understand the deep things by just sending out our little post. You have to be taught and tutored by the Holy Ghost. Everybody wants a quick fix. Wonder if they would have fell out the window when Paul was preaching all night long. If you lived close by then we could really have some thing to talk about. I would get my studies in order and you could and then we would be polite and somebody would learn something new. Maybe both of us. I have been study in Revelation since last Sunday and have not stopped. That is how much I want to know it and be about to preach it in Simplicity. And One day the Lord willing I will do just that. Its coming clearer all the time.

    When Jesus came they cried out Peace, Joy, to the World with everlasting love when Messiah was born. “””He was bringing in the Millennium”””using the Word. Jesus had a Message. Those that it was sent to did not want to hear it. It would have messed up their relationship with Rome and they were really making good money and getting rich off of them and the common people.

    The thousand year reign however, is not just in heaven. During his time Christ’s authority extends to the earth as well. The binding of Satan does not mean that there will be a literal Heaven on Earth with never any problems of unbelief from others. Satan was bound several times in the Jewish History.

    Jesus Christ is the Millennium. We are empowered by the Holy Ghost.
    That fact that Satan is bound does not mean that there will be no sin. According to James 1:14 Each One is tempted when , by His Own Evil desire, He is dragged away and enticed.

    Satan lives in you or Christ lives in you. We have the right to resist now. And Keep or Character of Christ intact. Our you can choose to live in the Millennium and sin. We all get enticed as some point in our walk with Christ.
    The law could not do what Christ could do for us. It was the anointing on the Prophets that got them through as well. The Holy Ghost was in the O.T as well. But the blood of lambs and animals. Could not bring them back to their full potential. Only Jesus Covenant could work.

    The Millennium is the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ. but most do not even know it. Just read the Bible – how about your reading the Overcomers life and how they Overcome it all.

    Im tired got to go. Palisade out
    With studying you got to get in the Holy Ghost zone to get it. yea it takes all you mind, strength and all. . These little post you cannot even get into the Holy Ghost Zone.

  64. Great to hear you’ve been studying Revelation since last Sunday and want to preach it.

    I’ve been studying it now for 25 years but guess what? Now I’ve got all the answers, no one wants to listen. They’ve all got their own outdated interpretations which were formulated 2000 years ago, when there was no chance that anyone alive could understand them.

    The book of Revelation was written for our generation to interpret; people who would know what skyscrapers, aircraft and missiles were and even then, it would only be obvious after the event what a prophecy meant.

    So what use is a prophecy if no one can interpret it until after the event?

    It is so that, as you see the prophecies being fulfilled, one by one, you will know that the final one, the return of Jesus is true and will happen soon.

    But on a happy note, don’t worry, there is no apocalyptic world war 3 and mass destruction! All the evil entities like the Beast 666 and the False Prophet who are supposed to terrorize us in the last days, have all happened since 1948 and no one has even noticed.

    • alan

      when did you get the revelation that there would be no more world wars?

      and how did you figure this out?

      who is the beast?, to you?

    • Hello Alan,

      You said:
      “But on a happy note, don’t worry, there is no apocalyptic world war 3 and mass destruction! All the evil entities like the Beast 666 and the False Prophet who are supposed to terrorize us in the last days, have all happened since 1948 and no one has even noticed.”

      If as you said, “all happened since 1948 and no one has even noticed” then this alone is proof that it hasn’t happened yet. The events prephesied in the book of Revelatioin and related Scriptures regarding the wrath of God, are meant to be noticed. In fact, no one will be able to deny or ignore them because of their severity. This is what people will be saying duirng that last seven years and specifically the last 3 1/2 years during God’s wrath:

      ==================================

      * The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.

      * The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

      * From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds,a fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

      ===================================

      So, as you can see from the Scriptures above, the inhabitants of the earth will not be able to ignore the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and they will also know who is in control of them, as can be seen from their cursing God because of them. Regarding that time period Jesus said:

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.”

      So yeah, the the inhabitants of the earth during that time will surely notice God’s wrath being poured out. It would be a smidge difficult to not to notice demonic beings coming up out of the Abyss that resemble locusts, with the tails and stings of scorpions and tormenting people for five months, just as an example.

      And regarding the Mark of the beast, which the false prophet will force all inhabitants to receive in their hand or forehead and without it no one will be able to buy or sell except the one who has the mark, I’m guessing you haven’t been paying attention to what is going on in the world. First, regarding the mark of the beast, click on the link and watch this BBC Newscast which aired in January of this year:

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      and then read the following related information

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11586778/Denmark-moves-step-closer-to-being-a-cashless-country.html

      The very fact that people are being implanted with RFID chips in their hands is a testimony to the literal truth and accuracy of God’s word. Whether the mark ends up being the RFID chip or evolves into some other device, the truth is that the system of electronic crediting and debiting (Buying and selling) is here. Right now debit and credit cards are the keys to electronic crediting and debiting, but as time goes on they will be replaced by that device that will be located in/on the hand or forehead in preparation for that beast’s arrival.

      Blessings!

  65. Hello again Alan,

    I don’t know why, but I got your post in my email, but it does not appear on this site. So I’ll post it here at the beginning of my post:

    Alan said:
    “So if the “mark of the beast” is an implant under the skin, what is the relevance of the number 666? The prophecy says you can’t buy without this number, not that you can’t buy without an implant !”

    Here is the Scripture regarding the mark:

    “He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.”

    So, according to the Scripture above, it states “so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark.” The next part is a description of what the mark is: “which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.” Therefore, the name of the beast or the number of his name is the mark. They are not separate items, but are synonymous. Here is how the NLT renders the verse:

    “And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name.”

    My personal belief regarding the number of his name which is 666 is that it most likely has to do with the world banking code, since it has to do with buying and selling, which will somehow be within or related to the mark. Regardless of what 666 is, it is apart of the mark which will be located in/on the hand or forehead. In other words, whatever that mark is, the 666 will be apart of the device. Case in point, each persons debit card uses coded numbers within its chip in order for a person to be able to access their personal bank account so that they can perform crediiting and debiting. I’m assuming that it will be the same with this implant, which will do the same thing as the debit card and more, eventually replacing the debit and credit cards.

    Hope this helps

    • Note: Revelation 13:16-18

      16 – And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

      17 – and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

      18 – Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

      It’s important to understand from these texts that the number of the Beast, is the number of a man.

      The Beast in John’s time was Rome.

      Note John 19:20 —
      King James Bible
      “This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.”

      The language of the Beast was Latin

      Latin Roman numerals at that time were; –
      l, V, X, L, C, D. = 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500
      Added up, they equal 666.

      That is the number of the Beast — Rev 13:17

      ———————————————————–

      The number of a man’s name.

      The Latin title of the Pope is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
      The Latin Roman numerals within the name are:
      V, l, C, l, V, l, L, l, l, D, l. = 5, 1, 100, 1, 5, l, 50, l, l, 500, l = 666

      But it doesn’t end there…

      LVDOVICVS = 50, 5, 500, 5, 1, 100, 5. = 666
      Vicar of the court

      DVX CLERI = 500, 5,10 – 100, 50, 1. = 666
      Captain of the clergy

      REX LATINVS SACERDOS = 10, – 100, 500, – 50,1 5, = 666
      King of the Roman/Latin Priests

      SANCTA LVX DEI = 100, – 50, 5, 10, – 500, 1 = 666
      Holy Light of God

      The odds of these things happening by chance are infinitesimally small, therefore correct. There is no mistake on this.

      There is no 616.

      The Beast is not Islam

      The Beast is Roman Catholicism

      —————————————————————–

      The “Image of the Beast” — What is it?
      The “Mark of the Beast” — What is it?

      Revelation 14:9(KJV) says: “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,”

      It’s saying that worshiping the beast AND his image, is part of receiving the mark.

      The questions begin with:
      — What/which/who is the Beast? Roman Catholicism
      — What is his image/icon? Sunday
      — What is his mark? Sunday worship
      — Why forehead? Frontal lobe/higher thinking
      — Why hand? Physical action

      Yes, finance will be used to enforce the decree

      • (Continued)

        You said:
        — What is his image/icon? Sunday
        — What is his mark? Sunday worship

        Here is the definition of the word image/eikon:

        an image, i.e. lit. statue, fig. representation

        eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, “be like”) – properly, “mirror-like representation,” referring to what is very close in resemblance (like a “high-definition” projection, as defined by the context). Image (1504 /eikṓn) then exactly reflects its source (what it directly corresponds to). For example, Christ is the very image (1504 /eikṓn, supreme expression) of the Godhead (see 2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15).

        “He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.”

        Since the word “Ikon” is defined as a statue, mirror like representation, you would be hard pressed to interpret the image as being Suday. The image or mirror-like representation is of the person of the beast. We know that this is not speaking of Sunday worship because regarding the beast Paul stated the following:

        “He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thes.2:4)

        How can Sunday be set up in God’s temple and oppose and exalt itself over everything that is called God or worshiped? Furthormore, there is not one shred of information in the Scripture regarding Sunday or the Sabbath in the context. In fact, you will not find the word Sabbath anywhere in the book of Revelation. This view is complete conjecture.

        “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. (Rev.19:20)

        The language here in this verse is demonstrating that both the beast and the false prophet are two individual persons, as can be seen by the statements “the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet ” and “the two of them were thrown alive” into the lake of fire.

        “And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
        (Rev.20:10)

        The context in the verse above demonstrates that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are treated as three separate individuals. The fact that the devil, the beast and false prophet are mentioned as individuals and by the use of the word “They” would also demonstrate that they are individuals. To try interpret the beast as Rome would make no sense at all. If the beast was Rome, it would not be referred to as “Him” or “They”.

  66. H Dan,

    I will respond to each one in a separate post for the purpose of longevity

    You said:

    The questions begin with:

    — who is the Beast? Roman Catholicism

    Although Roman Catholicism is envolved with the beast, (for she is the woman who rides the beast of Revelation 17 & 18), she is not the beast. From Scripture we can deduce that the beast is an actual person, as can be seen from the following verses:

    “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction.” (Rev.17:8)

    As the verse above states, the beast will come up out of the Abyss, which is a literal place within the earth. This is the same place that those demons collectively called Legion begged Jesus not to send them into as seen in Luke 8:26-39.

    When does the beast come up from the Abyss?

    At the sounding of the 5th trumpet when that star/angel opens the Abyss he lets out those demonic beings who resemble locuts, but have tails and stings like that of scropions with which they torment the inhabitants of the earth with for 5 months. The beast, that angel of the Abyss is their king as can be seen in the following verse:

    “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).”

    The beast is also the one who kills the two witnesses as can be seen in the following verse:

    “Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. ” (Rev.11:7)

    The beast will be a king, who belongs to those succession of seven kings of which the seven heads of the beast represent. If the beast is a king then he has to be a person/individual.

    “The beast who once was, and now is not, is [an eighth king]. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.” (Rev.17:11)

    ==========================================

    • (Continued)

      You said:
      — Why forehead? Frontal lobe/higher thinking
      — Why hand? Physical action

      Again, this inference that the right hand represents lobe/higher thinking and the hand infers physical actioin is complete conjecture, for there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to the those conclusions. The above mentioned along with the mark being non-literally as observing the Sabbath on Sunday, goes back to the Seventh Day Adventists and others. You did not arrive at these interpretations by your own studies of Scripture, but were taught them.

      ================================
      “He also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, ” (Rev.13:16)

      “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand,” (Rev.14:8)

      “Theya had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received hsi mark on their foreheads or their hands. (Rev.20:4)

      “This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.e That number is 666

      ================================

      In the Scriptures above, the hand and forehead remain consistant, demonstrating that a literal hand and forehead are in view as to where the mark will be placed. Again, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to a non-literal interpretation of the hand and forehead. This would again be by pure assumption/conjecture. Furthermore, since the verse above states that the number of the beast is the number of a man, how could the beast be Rome? As far as using mathematics to apply 666 to the pope, that same formula has been used on many others Nero, Hitler, Reagan, Obama, just to name a few. Since the mark has to do with buying and selling, the debit card uses multiple codes within its chip, including a united nations code and a country code which are each three digits in length. At some point the mark will replace the debit card and will contain the individuals personal account numbers and the number of the beast will be included in the coded numbers within that device. So when a person receives that mark, within that chip or device, they will be carrying around the beasts name which will allow them to continue to electronically credit and debit (buying and selling) their bank accounts.

      The way in which the false prophet will “Force” all to receive the mark will be by making cash, checks, credit and debit cards obsolete, which by the way is why we have been seeing the continueing push to phase out cash and checks. By doing this it will force people to make a descision either to receive the mark or to reject it. There will be no neutrality! The reason I say this is because if cash, checks and debit cards were still valid means of crediting and debiting ones bank account during that time, then there would be people who would opt to continue to use those methods of buying and selling, especially the great tribulation saints. Making cash, checks and credit and debit cards obsolete will be like drawing that perverbial line in the sand. At that point it will require a yes or no response, for or against. Anyone who does not have the mark will not be able to be apart of the world system. They will not be able to have a job, pay their bills, pay their mortgage, buy gas, groceries, nothing! And that because the mark will be the key to accessing ones bank account electronically to be able to credit and debit it just like people do right now with the debit card. If you have no key to access your account, then you would not be able to perform any activity on it.

      For those who have interpreted the mark, the hand and the forehead, as non-literal, I say that the burden of proof is on them and that because people are already being implanted with the RFID chip under the skin of the hand. And one of the many purposes of this chip is to be able to make purchases. Below is a link to a BBC Newcast that aired in January of this year. I’ll say it again, the very fact that people are being inplanted under the skin of the hand is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God’s word, because this demonstrates a literal interpretation and not an allegorical one.

      http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-31045201

      • Heavy sigh,

        Believe what you want.

        • It’s not about what I believe Dan, but what Scripture says. All I have to say to you is, keep watching. You’re going to continue to see the world moving towards a cashless society where everyone is crediting and debiting their bank accounts electronically. You will also see more and more countries following suit with Demark, going completely cashless. You are also going to see this chip implant in the hand technology continue to evolve in preparation for the beast’s arrival. I’ve been watching the evolution of this for 35 years or so, so I know what I am talking about. The system that the mark will use that will allow people to electonically credit and debit their bank accounts is and has been in place. People use it every day when they swipe their cards, not even realizing what it is going to evolve into. The only thing missing is the switch from cards to the personal implant. Just keep watching!

          • You’ve already demonstrated that things are as you believe, by declaring that I believe is what I was taught; which summarily disregards the possibility that I might have been taught how to think, instead of what to think and what and how to believe. Such bias handicaps consideration of new ideas that might contradict preconceived notions, concepts, ideology, orthodoxy, or doctrine, and leads to declarations of whatever “is”, is; regardless of whether they contradict facts in evidence, and leads to “cherry picking” of “evidence” which appears to support previously held beliefs and constructs. Cherry picking invariably spoils the recipe for truth.

            Truth is truth, regardless of source or vector. Most weren’t looking for truth in a manger or crucifixion site, but that’s where it was, and most missed it. Martin Luther is yet another great example. History of the emergence of new ideas is replete with examples of how prejudice towards new insights, especially towards profound ideas, has threatened to derail the journey to truth. Typically, new ideas are ridiculed and violently opposed, often dismissed as irrelevant, before acceptance as truth, and often as self evident truth. Thus, summary dismissal of new ideas regardless of etiology, and before critical analysis, is never wise.

            For you to remark that I regurgitated what I was taught to believe is a bit presumptive, and reveals you to be biased towards anything that I might have to offer. A question that begs to be asked is this; are you open to consider ideas that might be self evident truths?

            Self evident truth:

            Latin Roman numerals at Jesus’s time were;
            l, V, X, L, C, D. = 1, 5, 10, 50, 100, 500(M for 1,000 wasn’t added until the middle ages)
            Added up, they equal 666.

            The Latin title of the Pope is VICARIVS FILII DEI.
            The Latin Roman numerals within the name are:
            V, l, C, l, V, l, L, l, l, D, l. = 5, 1, 100, 1, 5, l, 50, l, l, 500, l = 666
            But it doesn’t end there…
            LVDOVICVS = 50, 5, 500, 5, 1, 100, 5. = 666
            Vicar of the court
            DVX CLERI = 500, 5,10 – 100, 50, 1. = 666
            Captain of the clergy
            REX LATINVS SACERDOS = 10, – 100, 500, – 50,1 5, = 666
            King of the Roman/Latin Priests
            SANCTA LVX DEI = 100, – 50, 5, 10, – 500, 1 = 666
            Holy Light of God

            The odds of this happening by chance are staggeringly small, therefore correct. There is no mistake on this.

            Consider this self evident truth: No one ever went to the moon, nor ever landed a man on it. Facts known in the 60’s contradict any notion that it might have happened. Facts now in evidence completely destroy any claim that man ever left orbit. Yet the majority of Americans still believe that man landed on the moon. What do you believe?

            If some sect has some self evident truth, even though they might have other flawed ideas as do the SDA’s, should the baby be thrown out with the bath water?

            There are over 500 Sabbatarian sects in the world. All worship on the day Biblically indicated. Even the Vatican agrees. The Vatican admits that they changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday based upon their “ecclesiastical authority”. Thus, the facts in evidence here reveal the self obvious truth that Saturday is the true Sabbath. Simple

            • Dan,

              You said:
              “There are over 500 Sabbatarian sects in the world. All worship on the day Biblically indicated. Even the Vatican agrees. The Vatican admits that they changed the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday based upon their “ecclesiastical authority”. Thus, the facts in evidence here reveal the self obvious truth that Saturday is the true Sabbath. Simple”

              The keeping of the Sabbath, regardless of the day that it is kept on, is not going to be an issue as a requirement for salvation. Jesus purchased men for God by his own blood and our hope and trust should be completely in him as the One who provided salvatioin for us apart from our own efforts.

              “For God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.”

              Whenever someone brings in their own works as a requirement for salvation along side of Christ’s sacrifice, the person is in essence saying to Christ, “Your sacrifice was insufficient.” Should we do good works? Of course! We should be zealous to do them, but not to obtain or maintain salvation, but to glorify God by our good works. Jesus took care of the sin and salvation part. for we are credited with righteousness for faith apart from works.

              The claim by those who belonged to the party of the Pharisees:

              “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

              The answer to that claim:

              The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

              If anyone makes their own works/efforts a requirement along side of Christ’s sacrifice to obtain forgiveness of sins and eternal life, such as keeping the Sabbath as a requirement in order to be saved, it will have the opposite affect, keeping the the individual from eternal life. It takes the focus off Christ’s finished work on the cross and puts it on the individuals own works. That being said, the Sabbath is not a determining factor in regards to salvation and it certainly has nothing to do with the mark of the beast.

              You’d think that if keeping Sabbath was detrimental to salvation it would be mentioned over and over again throughoutt the NT or even in the letters to the churches in Revelation. Yet none of the churches are either commended nor rebuked regarding the Sabbath. In fact, the word Sabbath does not even appear even once in the book of Revelation. Yet you and others claim that if a person observes the Sabbath on Sunday, then that person has received the mark, and that without any Scriptural support. Pure conjecture! No thank you! I’ll stick with the plain text of Scripture. As I said in a previous post, regarding your interpretation, the burden of proof is on you and those who are claiming this belief and that because we are already seeing people being implanted with RFID chips under the skin of the hand, one of its functions being to make purchases. The very fact that this is even happening is a testimony to the truth and accuracy of God’s word.

              If anyone wants to keep a day as special to the Lord, then let him keep it, but not as requrement for salvation.

              • You didn’t really read what I posted did you.

                If you had really read it, your response might have stayed on topic

              • Who’s Gregg?

                You said, “I would rather be guilty of believing what the literal word of God’ says opposed to being guilty of not believing it and changing its meaning.”

                It’s apparent that you believe some things to be self evident, which was my question in a previous post that you didn’t respond to.

                So, do you believe that the items I listed within my recent post to be self evident facts?

                Dan

  67. The Truth about the Millennium finally- yes it would take 10 minutes to read.
    I hope you can afford the time for such great truths.

    The “lion and the lamb shall lay down together” is often cited a prophecy speaking of a literal utopia on earth to come – a Golden Age – referred to as “The Millennium“. It is argued that since so many of the prophecies regarding The Christ’s first appearing were fulfilled literally, surely such prophecies of a Golden Age will also be fulfilled literally. This yet-to-come Golden Age (“The Millennium”) is spoken of as “Paradise Restored” – an age of Paradise on earth where there will be no death, sorrow, pain or sickness. The prophets described this era with the expression, “the lion and the lamb shall lay down together…” But there is a slight, ever so slight, problem with this: the expression, the lion and lamb shall lay down together does not occur in the Bible! The closest we can get to it Isaiah 11:6.
    ¶ The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
    and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.
    Isaiah 11:6
    It’s interesting how many things are cited as if they are in the Bible. Like, one shall put a thousand to flight and two shall put ten thousand to flight is often quoted by leadership teachers about the power of an individual or a duo. But how many realize this citation refers to what Israel’s enemies could do to them if they broke Covenant with God (not what they would do to their enemies)? (Deut. 32:30)
    The particular almost-biblical-expression in question is used to promote “Pre-Millennialism” which is the idea that Christ will return and set up a Golden Age on earth for a thousand years where even normally carnivorous animals will become vegetarian. This idea has gained much popular paperback-theology endorsement. But I am proposing a quite different view for your consideration.

    In Tom Wright’s book, “Justification”, the master exegete and Biblical scholar describes the difficulty in challenging a view of Scripture which is almost universally accepted and taken for granted, in the same way that it must have been difficult for Copernicus to convince the world that the Sun did not revolve around the earth – but rather, that the earth rotated around the Sun. “Look” Copernicus’s objectors and scoffers might have contested, “each morning the Sun comes up then each evening it goes down. There you have it! The proof! The Sun goes around the earth.” But despite the objective data presented by Copernicus, the general perception continued and his objectors preserved the status quo, at least for a while.
    Perhaps in a similar way, what I am proposing might meet with similar Copernican objectors. I am going to attempt to show that Isaiah 11:6 should not be taken in a wooden literal sense. Having already shown that the expression the lion shall lay down with the lamb…does not occur in the Bible, I am going to argue that neither is the very concept proposed – a Golden Age on earth, called the Millennium – to be what the Bible teaches.
    “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,”says the LORD.

    Isaiah 65:25
    The Book of Isaiah employs metaphors. Metaphors are word pictures. The Promised Messiah is described in Isaiah as a “tender shoot” or a “root” (incidentally, both metaphors occur in Isaiah 11). These word pictures of the Christ paint Him as the hope of Israel and One who would be born as a child and grow. The particular metaphors in question: the wolf, is frequently used in the Old Testament to speak of Israel’s enemies. For example, Jeremiah speaks of Israel’s enemies as a lion, a wolf, and a leopard.
    ¶ Therefore a lion from the forest shall strike them down; a wolf from the desert shall devastate them. A leopard is watching their cities; everyone who goes out of them shall be torn in pieces, because their transgressions are many, their Apostasies are great

    Jeremiah 5:6
    Similarly, Israel is frequently described as lambs, or sheep. To speak of wolves and lambs laying down together, is to describe the effect of the New Covenant. That is, the largely ethnically-centred Old Covenant, would one day be replaced by the whole New World Covenant. The N.T Covenant where Jew and (the previously hostile enemy) Gentiles are brought together “under the same Covenant“.

    ¶ Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
    Ephesians 2:11-14
    The context of “Isaiah 11” is the ministry and achievement of the Messiah. The resultant New Covenant would make peace between formally hostile enemies. There are some beautiful prophetic metaphors in “Isaiah 11” which describe this. Such as verse 18, The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den. This is not a picture of a Utopian Golden Era, referred to as The Millennium, rather it was a prophetic picture of the resultant peace from the spread of the New Covenant. How far will this New Covenant spread?
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
    Isaiah 11:9b

    Of course, these various ideas come to affect how we understand the Book of Revelation. Some will continue to think that the Bible forecasts an earthly Utopia just as some continued to think that the Sun went around the earth in Copernicus’s day. To be sure, one day Christ will return, as the ancient creeds say, to judge all people and bring our dimensions to an end. In a sense, the New Heaven and the New Earth speaks of the New Covenant but it ultimately speaks of a time to come when –
    He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
    Revelation 21:4
    In the meantime, the wolf lays down the lamb every time an Arab and a Jew find a common bond in knowing Christ as the Promised Prophet, Messiah and Saviour. And this is happening today perhaps more than people realise.
    – – –
    I have written a fuller explanation of the book of Revelation in my eBook- THE MOST EMBARRASSING BOOK IN THE BIBLE (click here to read a preview). The application from the Book of Revelation is that despite what appears to be an impotent Church struggling to serve an apparently impotent Christ, the Church is in reality made up of overcomers who lay down their lives gladly to promote Christ and His Gospel. In so doing, the Kingdom of Christ is extended, prayers are offered and heard, miracles are graced, and the believer can die with infinite hope that their Lord will keep them for eternity and clothe them with a new body which can not be subject to pain, injury, sorrow, or sin. With this knowledge we can endure momentary hardship during the brevity of this life on earth. We can be assured that our greatest delights and deepest moments of fulfilment are yet to come in the life to come.
    John 5:25 ¶ “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

    Palisade

    • To Beacon and all,

      =========================

      The wolf will live with the lamb,

      the leopard will lie down with the goat,

      the calf and the lion and the yearling together;

      and a little child will lead them.

      The cow will feed with the bear,

      their young will lie down together,

      and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

      The infant will play near the cobra’s den,

      and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.

      They will neither harm nor destroy

      on all my holy mountain,

      for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord

      as the waters cover the sea. (Isa.11:6-9)

      ===================================

      The issue has and continues to be with you and those who believe as you do which is, does the information above mean exactly what it says, defining the characteristics of the millennial period or is it figurative language? Seeing that there is nothing in the Scripture in question nor anywhere in chapter 11 that would infer a figurative or spiritual meaning, then the information must be received in the plain text that it is written in. The only reason that you and others make the above figurative is because it kills your theory of there not being a literal thousand years where Christ will literally be ruling on earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem in fulfillment of Scriptures. When the Lord returns and establishes his reign then those characteristics above will exist. And that goes the same for the Scripture that states that they will beat their weapons of war into tools for agriculture and nation will not train for war any more. This is exactly why you make the thousand years figurative and that because if we are currently living in the so-called thousand years and the characteristics above are literal, then we could not be currently living in it because those characteristics don’t currently exist and so you spiritualize them to support your belief.

      How about this senario: the characteristics above are literal, which means that we have not yet entered into the thousand years, which is why we don’t see the the Lion eating straw like the Ox and why we don’t see prey and predator animals lying down together. A young child will be able to lead the prey and predator animals around during that time and will be able to stick his hand in vipers nest because the reason will be just as the Scripture above says,

      “They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.”

      During that literal thousand years during the time of the Lord’s reign on this earth, he will remove the fear of man from the animals, as well as remove their prey/predator instincts, which is why they will neither harm nor destroy duirng that time. By the way, in your post above you said regarding the millennial period:

      “an age of Paradise on earth where there will be no death, sorrow, pain or sickness. ”

      These are not characteristics of the millennium, for death will still be in operation during that time and that because the people who repopulate that thousand years will still be in their mortal bodies. Those characteristics you mentioned are of the eternal state which ensues after the thousand years, when the new heaven and new earth are created as described in Rev.21 & 22. Death isn’t destroyed until the great white throne judgment takes place which is when death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire. Furthermore, we know that death will still be in operation during the millennium and that because God rains fire down upon those whom Satan will have gathered together, killing them. After death has been destroyed as seen in Rev.20:14, then with the creation of the new heaven and new earth, God says, “‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

      I would rather be guilty of believing what the literal word of God’ says opposed to being guilty of not believing it and changing its meaning.

  68. You know Dmcal – You must never read the Bible for what it says. You must not understand even one symbol in the bible. Its so pitiful.
    Paul was bit by a Snake that should have killed in instantly. Did he die. Did Jesus Raise the Dead. Did not Jesus raise from the dead. He never died. He was the first fruit of the Millennium. We are His follower’s and death cannot hold us either. Yea Jesus called the Pharisees snakes in the grass. =They were Jesus Enemies – They would not lay down with Christ no sir. He was the Lamb. They were the Lion’s of Satan’s world.

    Did not the Angels in heaven call it a blessed Day one of Peace, Goodwill, to all men. Especially to the Gentile and all. Read Isa. 1 and 2 that is what it is talking about.
    Most of the Baptist and denominationals – Preach and teach that the “Sermon on the Mount is the Millennium. They do not believe they can live that kind of life on this earth. Now I’m telling you I have heard them preach that. So lets just tear out chapters Matt. 5-7 – Tear out Isa. Prophecies in Isa. Chapters 1-2 – 11- 60 – 65- 66.
    Jesus ministry alone – takes away our tears, and gives us Joy and Peace. He gave us the gift of Faith and Grace and Love to rise above this world and walk not in the CHARACTER of this world. the serpents mark. The leopards mark, bears mark, lion’s mark. They are all wild beast of men with tempers and characterizing these animals. Jesus is the Lamb. In his Ministry he ministered to all and His Disciples picked it up and went with it into all the world.
    Tell the Roman Centurion how did his servant get healed. By the Word of God. Rev. 19. On and on and on. Jesus said HE the ROMAN had more faith than in ALL of Israel. This is whats wrong today. The church is not living up to what it should be.

    Paul said that Jerusalem from Above is NOW. I believe him. We are the “City of God” and Jesus is our King NOW
    Matt. 5:14 “””Ye””” are the light of the world. “A city” that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Ye= MEAN All Disciples of Christ have assess to Jesus Christ Power that He left us to use. But we do not know how to do it. Cause we are so weak in faith and love. Are you would be seeing Miracles all the time.
    Jesus sermon on the mount His first message – Called us Blessed 9 times and said to Rejoice. Peace and Good will to ALL men.
    We are in the World but NOT of it.

    Matt. 6: 10 “Thy Kingdom COME”. “Thy will” be done” in earth”, “as it is in heaven.” The Word COME here is exactly the same as in Rev. 1:7 The EXACT SAME – what are you going to do with that.
    2064 erchomai ==a) of persons; to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving; to come i.e. to appear, make one’s appearance, come before the public
    2) to come, metaphorically
    2a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established; become known; to come (fall) into or unto
    3) to go, to follow one
    BEHOLD – Most believe that they will possess the Millennium when they hear the trumpet sound. Oh then they will have it made. NOT!
    This word “COME” 2064 same as Rev. 1:7 is come by the Trumpet sound. THAT IS A MESSAGE TO THE CHURCH TO WAKE UP GET OUT OF YOUR SLEEP. I HAVE COME AND YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW IT. ESPECIALLY IN THIS LAST GENERATION. The trumpet is a Message to any generation or AGE . God always gives warnings to HIS real Followers. you had better prepare to be a Overcomer. Noah saw the Rainbow AFTER the trial was Over. The 2 Angels that visited Sodom and Gomorrah had left before the destruction came. Those cites did not hear their trumpet message cause they was so into their fleshy lusts of the flesh.

    MATT 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.- God Feeds us with His Bread
    a. Bread from Heaven.
    MATT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.= forgives our sins. and makes us 1st fruits with HIM. Then we do not have to worry about the 2nd. Death. Jesus was the 1st resurrection and Eternal life came.
    We all got to be in that 1st Resurrection to have Eternal life. It says it so plain.

    MATT 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but “”deliver us from evil””: For “thine” is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    Thine means =YOU personal pronoun are in the Kingdom NOW
    Power Means = 411 dunamis =English is dynamite from 1410

    1) strength power, ability, miracles,
    1a) inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue=strength of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth – humans either have Gods nature or an animals nature – Nature is your Character.
    1b) power for performing miracles
    1c) moral power and excellence of soul
    1d) the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
    1e) power and resources arising from numbers
    1f) power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
    All animals have Characteristic’s and live in human flesh. The Bible says so.
    They are natural = character Beasts the bible says so. The beast shall lay down before the lamb. Any wild man. Like the Legion that had 1,000 demons of animal characteristics.

    Jesus said “Blessed” our the Peace makers. That is the Bride of Jesus Christ that keep this earth together. With our KING Jesus. Guiding us all the way.
    Jesus is opposite of Rev. 6:1 – Mankind is riding the white horse of death. He is a beastly war machine that only knows how to kill people that is how “simple” The Seals are. Then those that they killed God said He would resurrect them into eternal life. The 6th. seal is the for Beastly humans that kill other humans with no conscience. The 7th. Seal is the Coming of the Lord to take his Bride home. Comings of the Lord has taken place more than once or twice in the Bible. Its in the Bible. God said in Isaiah. He is coming the second time to Israel. Delivering them from their enemy.

    Rev. 19: 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev. 19:12- His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev. 19:13- And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his NAME IS CALLED THE “”” WORD OF GOD””
    Rev. 19:14 And the “”armies which were in heaven”” followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    It this pitiful are not that no man could understand the Word of God. It has to come by Gods Tutor called the Holy Spirit. They only way we can understand and have a New Birth is by the Holy Spirit. This is what is wrong today in the church’s. Just as in Jesus day.
    Its the “Word of God” – that can translate a man from hell to heaven.

    Even Satan has a “seat” in the Earth to RULE .
    Rev. 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou “dwellest”, even where Satan’s “seat is”: and thou holdest fast my name,= Word of God- and hast not denied my faith.
    Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a “LEOPARD”, and his feet were as the feet of a “BEAR’, and his mouth as the mouth of a “LION: and the “DRAGON’= snake= serpent gave him his power, and “his seat”, and “great authority.” === this was speaking of Rome when Revelation was written.
    Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon “”the seat”” of the beast; and “”HIS KINGDOM”” was full of darkness””; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, – satan has a kingdom on this earth as well do the Bride. And very different in Character. Peace and Love against Hate and War.
    A. We are In the World but not of it.
    B. We all live in TWO worlds at the same time. That is the Millennium period. There are still sinners in the earth.
    Many a great theologian has said the Millennium will have sinners in it. There you go.
    To me the Word “COME” 2064 could have happened in the sixties and ye knew it not. The Trumpet sounded out a Great message for our age. And it was rejected by the majority of church’s in American and or in history of the world. They did not believe Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, you name it and the people hated them – Even THEE PROPHET with all the Scriptures fulfilled in Him could not be recognized by that great church age He and John was sent to. And the ones that could would not help him. They loved their money to much. They loved their god of leisure and comfort. They loved their self righteousness, so much the put placers to show off in. Rom. 11 So busy with the worldly things. And Elijah and God walking the Earth right in front of them. That is blind. It was 37 years late that Israel died in terrible deaths over rejecting their own Messiah. We must think on these things some. Could it be over and you know it not. Maybe the last Disciple of Christ has come along time ago. Sin is full and is ready to be punished. Best think about these things.

    Rev. 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    Rev. 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, “”I make all things new””. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    Rev. 21:6- And HE said unto me, IT IS DONE. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Verse 21:6 is the last Words that Jesus said. IT IS DONE – and I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Isa. 54
    Think about dear Saints.
    Rev. 16: 17 ¶ And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE .

    If and when you can figure out that John wrote the book of Revelation in 4 to 6 sections at a time. Remember he was on the “Isle of Patmos”. Not in a office building typing it out. Not all at once. When you understand these things it much easier for you to understand it all.
    The whole book was about the Fall of Jerusalem and the Roman Empire.
    Yes it has symbols that we and any generation would have at its end time. Yes it applies to us today. God is the Same Yesterday, Today, and forever. Heb. 13:8
    America is the Rome of our day. And it possesses the Purple curtain that is within us NOW as well. Communism will not destroy the world. But the purple curtain will and is right at this moment . Its seed is in all nations. Rev. 18.

    Palisade -I know most of you think me crazy. But I have much to say on any subject and I know it takes a lot of study and Teaching to get it into the heart and Soul of most who have been in denominations all your life.
    God bless you all.

    • Beacon,

      Well, I had quite alot written in response to your post, but I deleted it. The only thing that I can do for you is to pray that God would open your eyes to see the plain text of his word and that he give you understanding of the distortion that you are committing by your interpretations. Just by your belief and teaching that there is no bodily resurrection, puts you under the same banner as Hymenaes and Philetus, who taught that the resurrection had already taken place. And by doing so Paul said that it was godless chatter and they had wandered away from the truth. How much more then for anyone who is teaching that there is no bodily resurrection? In your previous post, you have distorted and deltuted the Scriptures so much that I don’t even know where to start.

      • DMCAL You do not understand what Im saying. – Sure we have a body after our death burial and resurrection . Just like Jesus Body when He came back upon earth to talk and teach his disciples. Where do you get this from my teachings. I have never thought that. And If it seemed I did you must read it wrong or I made a typo mistake.
        Our real body is inside us now. The Holy one. Which is eternal. The Celestial body. It will live on. But the Terrestrial will die. It was from earth.

        Palisade

  69. Dmcal
    You wrote above:
    “When a believer receives Christ into their lives, then the Holy Spirit takes up residency within the believer. There is no “coming again” after you have received him the first time.”

    I disagree with this. We are re-Born of the Spirit after our salvation.
    This is a major theme of Scripture right from the very book of Genesis, and the Seed of the woman giving birth to the Spirit.
    Look up the following and try to tie them together, and you will have your two witnesses to back verify this.
    Micah 5:2-5
    Romans 8
    Revelation 12
    John 3:5-15
    Parable of the Sower.
    You are missing a whole doctrine which runs throughout scripture, from Genesis to Revelation. Because of this error, all your theories are missing the mark.

    • Dmcal,
      Please do not read insult into this, and have this page descend into the chaos and confusion of the other pages where hardened hearts are fighting one another. I Write this, knowing that this is not a doctrine taught in seminaries and churches even to this day. I know it took me years to find this, and it goes back to the fall, and the seed of the woman vs. the seed of the serpent. Yes, this points to Jesus, but it also points to the church as the woman in revelation 12 whose seed overcomes Satan (12:11). Remember, woman do not carry the seed, as Adam carried the original fleshly sinful seed. The church is the woman, and born from her is the seed of the woman via the Holy Spirit.

      • Amen agust – Every seed brings forth of its kind. That is what it says.
        The Seed is the “Word of God” given into you . Some are Wheat seed and Some are tear seeds. But only God knows them. The same Rains on the Just and the Unjust. We can know them by their Character characteristics by what they grow into. Evil is pretty easy to see. So is Gods Character. Righteousness. Love , joy peace. and love the Word of God instead of it being a burden to most that say they are Christians. If people discuss things that is not tearing each other up. Its trying to communicate with another believer. And become in likeness which will bring more power to the Church.

        Palisade

  70. Also Dmcal – You see I wrote you a long article on the Millennium. The first and the second.
    This is why we can never come to anything. You dont even mention them. That is why you do not understand the Word of God. You do not even understand what a symbol meaning is. Its all literal to you. Why would one want to spend two hours on a post trying to help another Brother about the Millennium and they dont say one word back. You will never go any farther than your interpretation will take you. The Bible says. When a man receives the Word then cometh Satan and stealeth it away from him. Thats the problem in todays world. they are full of fear and do not want to change cause it showed themselves as wrong . I had to rethink my whole doctrines that I was taught for 10 to 12 years which were just like yours. But I changed. I doubt you even read both of my post on it. You would have had to got something out of it. That you could have proved was wrong. But I get Nothing.

    Palisade.

    • I agree. Dmcal’s silence is deafening with regard to other’s requests for answers to direct questions which he apparently doesn’t want to deal with, or that are inconsistent with his pre-existing construct.

      When he does respond, it’s with rhetoric, hyperbole, and circular logic, to support his conclusions. To describe him as an ideologue might be a bit harsh, however, this appears to be the case. It seems hard for him to concede to a point, possibly due to fear of such, which might threaten his preconceived position on what “is”, is. It’s really too bad

      • Dan,

        You said:
        “I agree. Dmcal’s silence is deafening with regard to other’s requests for answers to direct questions which he apparently doesn’t want to deal with, or that are inconsistent with his pre-existing construct. ”

        Just like with your interpretation of Scripture, the above is an assumption on you part and you know what they say about assumption. How about this as the reason for my silence, that I have no desire to respond to the ridiculous interpretations that have been presented here. For it is in vain to do so. Unless the Lord opens your eyes to the literal truth of his word, all of my efforts are in vain. And the only way that you and others are going to understand that the events regarding the end times and all that is written in Revelation must literally be fulfilled, is to experience them for yourselves. But because of your being so brainwashed into believing that everything is spiritual and not literal, I wonder if you would even recognize when the literal events when they begin to take place? Case in point, I have already provided the BBC Newscast demonstrating people in Sweden being implanted with an RFID chip under the skin of the hand and you can’t make the connection of this technology and apply it to the word of God regarding the mark. The god of this world has blinded your eyes so that you cannot see.

        Therefore, my silence is due to the fact that is in vain for me to try and present scripture to prove the word of God when you don’t adhere to the context of the word of God. Whenever some biblical topic is mentioned, you ignore the context of Scripture and you just slap on your pre-packaged interpretation. Another case in point, regarding the resurrection, you believe that once a person dies that everything takes place at the time of death and that the body never rises again. Yet as I have shown, the word translated resurrection comes from the Greek Anastasis which is defined as “a standing up again in the same body” just like Christ did, but you ignore the meaning of that and you do the same with many other topics. Therefore, my silence is justified in that, I don’t want waste any more of my time trying to get you to understand that God means what he says and that there is no reason for spiritualizing of these things. You will just have find out for yourselves by going though it and seeing them first hand. Hopefully God will open your eyes when these things begin to happen. At this point, all I can do is pray for you, which I will continue to do.

        • You just validated my assertions about your avoidance game.

          It appears that when the going gets too tough, you take the holier than thou position by posing as virtuous, then get condescending, and then cut and run to avoid engaging in meaningful debate.

          Nobody herein is knowingly deviating from scripture sir. Some, including myself, may get something a bit wrong, but most are striving for truth.

          Again, you never answered my prior questions about self evident truth. Are you afraid of getting boxed in?

          Here’s a direct question: Is the decalogue a moral mandate?

          It’s a simple question. Yes or no?

  71. Dmcal – Please Tell me if these symbols below are literal.
    Beasts — represent governments.
    Daniel 7 describes four world empires as beasts. The first was Babylon, likened to a “kingly lion“, with great splendor and pride. The second was Medo-Persia, likened to a powerful grasping, strategic “bear“, who hugs its prey to death with its paws. The third was Greece, likened to a swift “conquering leopard“. The fourth was a dreadful beast, likened to the crushing Imperial Rome Eagle and Papal Roman Empire. The Dragon serpent

    Mal. 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the “Sun of righteousness arise” with “healing in his wings”; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as “calves” of the stall.
    The Sun of righteousness is Jesus Christ
    The Healing in his wings – is Jesus Christ coming to heal all Nations.

    Just trying to help you out on symbols in the Bible. Hope this helps.

    Palisade. Lord be with you. out of here

    • Correct

      • Yeah, I recognize the departure from scripture which is why I stopped conversing with you in the first place. Whenever you would send an email, my spirit was grieved because I wondered what deviation from Scripture is there going to be this time. You, just like Beacon and
        Agust are going to have to find our for yourselves. The prophecy regarding those having itching ears is here and the world is full of false teachers and false teachings. I suppose that the state of things, this apostasy had to be and that because it was prophesied. As for myself, I am going to continue doing what the Lord said to do and that is to keep watching and anticipating for his literal arrival in the air and our being gathering to him.

        • There is no argument here about Jesus returning in the air. The Bible declares it.

          Again, I’ve asked you direct, reasonable questions to which you apparently decline response. Is that christian? Inquiring minds herein would appreciate your answers. You’ve proffered yourself as an authoritative source within this blog, and I ask you to be forthcoming with answers.

          I’ll ask you again. Do you think that the Decalogue is a moral document/testament? Again, the answer is a simple yes or no.

        • dmcal

          if there is a grievous reason to discontinue a discussion, then just discontinue it.

        • Dmcal,
          I gave you a list of scriptures above, I did not depart from scripture. I Stated that you are missing a key doctrine of scripture in your understanding. If I was a good berean I would search those scriptures and see if it is so. Instead you arrogantly mock us and do not receive us.
          I am watching for his coming again, but I also believe He Was, and is and Is to come. You deny that he is now come.
          Again, Who is the woman, and the male child in revelation 12? Since woman do not contribute the seed, this Birth is a Spiritual birth. Micah 5 backs this up, and clearly states that the woman in question is not Israel, as Messiah has given them up until the time when the woman gives birth. Paul in Romans 8 verifies this. Creation itself is longing for this revelation, which Paul calls a mystery that is not seen. The Carnal mind cannot understand these things, as they are Spiritually discerned.
          To Use some Comp lingo, You are bogged down with the spam of tradition, and you need to reboot your understanding, to arrive at the truth. Like You, I held all the same views you do on end times, right down to the lion and the lamb lying down together. I Had to discard this spam, and let the Spirit teach me, and He is a far better teacher than men.

          • agust

            just because someone disagrees with you, and states why in an academic way, does not make them arrogant.

            discontinue the personal remarks

            • There was nothing academic about the response. He accused us of being in apostacy in his comment.
              My response was appropriate.

            • A proud heart is a hardened heart.
              Jesus pointed this out to Israelites as well, and I am merely following his example. He did not exactly come off as polite when dealing with hardened hearts, did he?

  72. Marianne
    Yea Jesus seemed really hard to the Pharisee’s etc. Yet He was so kind to the common people and did not tear them down Like he did the “Self-Righteous Rabbi’s and Sanhedrin. Jesus gave them 8 woes and none of them were very nice. This does not Mean Jesus was out of line. But trying to tell them Judgment is coming their way soon. He loved them enough to tell them the truth. Jesus got tired of it as well. And He sure was not a bad person. He had to grieve in His spirit more than once.

    The whole problem with the church today is. We just want to be so loving that we cannot hurt any ones feelings or so call judge them when we are really just trying to help then in the scriptures. Well no Christian really wants to hurt another Christian if they are really Christians. But Truth sets you free. Most all Christians want to live in their faith’s comfort zone. We must continue to get deeper in the Scriptures to understand them. We must get out of our Comfort Zones to even hear Gods Word. God did not write the Bible for to appease the World. But He kept His Love letters in mysteries and riddles so the world of pagan religion could not know them unless they were eagerly hungry for Truth and called before the foundation was ever laid. I do not run into very many Christians that really are thirsting for truth. They love their status quo. They love their comfort zone more that loving the “Comforter” who was sent to them to get the truth. Who can and will lead them to truth. Its all about truth and Love and Faith. The Word of God brings all that to us. How can we ever get past little hang ups’ if we do not search it with all our hearts.
    The Church today is way to much in Fear of the Scriptures. Its the cause of denominations hatching them out by the thousands every year. And who even knows if they are saved our just want a good paying job. One thing for sure. They are not deep into the Word and tell us the Mysteries. I know I have been around for along time now.
    Some times God takes His children to the woodshed and paddles them. Yet in our society He could not do that. We so bound by the traditions of this day.

    I’m out of here. Have a good day dear Sister

    Palisade.

    • beacon

      that’s true…..agreed

    • Well said,

      “But Truth sets you free. Most all Christians want to live in their faith’s comfort zone. We must continue to get deeper in the Scriptures to understand them. We must get out of our Comfort Zones to even hear Gods Word. God did not write the Bible to appease the World.”

      It’s human nature to not stray too far outside of our zone of comfort. To whatever degree, we are all ideologues. We suspect those who would challenge our notion of what “is”, is; and far too often summarily judge without further consideration or question.

      History is replete with examples of man’s hesitancy to “see” or accept what in time becomes self evident truth. Fear compels most to adhere to the familiar, rather than accept facts in evidence which conflict with pre-existing ideology and paradigms. The frog in the pan of water brought to a boil is a perfect example.

      — Centuries ago, most were certain of a flat earth. Some today still believe such. It’s a self evident truth that the earth is a self evident truth

      — Centuries ago, many thought that the sun orbited the earth.

      — In 1676, the Danish astronomer Ole Roemer (1644–1710) became the first person to measure the speed of light. Roemer’s claim was denied for 50 years before someone duplicated Roemer’s experiment, and confirmed what is now considered self evident

      — In the mid 1800’s, it was thought that if a man traveled faster than 60mph, that his blood would boil. 😉

      — Decades ago, man was certain that a rocket could not function in a vacuum. You know how that turned out.

      — Einstein believed there to be a code in the Bible, but that there didn’t exist a way to examine all of the required sequences and permutations to find it. Ironically, it is supposed the Einstein simply “borrowed” from what was already long known, thanks to the discovery of Ivan Panin(12 December 1855 – 30 October 1942) , that there was/is a code in the Bible that is so fantastic, that it proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the Bible is of supernatural origin. Yet many still refute the authenticity and self evident truth of the Bible

      The Bible states that Jesus will return just as he left.

      — Acts 1: 9-11 King James Bible
      “9 – Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 – And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 – who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

      Some posit that “clouds” mentioned in this context means dimensions. So what! Maybe it does mean dimension. He’s still returning

      — Matthew 24:30
      “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

      Just sayin

      Dan

  73. Marianne – thanks for your positive response I do appreciate it much.

    Bro tom

  74. To all and for the record,

    As I have already told you, I am not going to waste anymore time debating the literal against the spiritual, which your beliefs favor. I could answer everyone of your questions, but since you don’t pay attention to the context of Scripture, it is futile for both sides to go any further. We’ll all find out as things continue to escalate.

    You teach that we are living in the thousand years, which you say isn’t a literal thousand years but unknown number and that Christ is currently ruling through his saints, which couldn’t be further from the truth. If he was currently ruling the nations, it would be with a rod of iron and that couldn’t be further for the current state of things. The day of the Lord is coming via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. But before that takes place, God is going to remove his church both the dead and living.

    So, if you want to continue in your spiritualization regarding the events of Mt.24 and the book of Revelation, you are free to do so. But I cannot and will not continue to discuss these issues with you, because spiritualization and the literal interpretation of Scripture is like comparing apples to oranges. We’re not on the same page. So I say, just keeping watching, because the world is going to continue to get worse and worse, the cashless society will continue to evolve, as well as the technology of the device implant with more people world-wide receiving it. The literal person of that antichrist will be revealed and you will be able to tell when his right hand man, the false prophet, begins to perform those satanic, counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. No need to respond to this post, just keep watching. Hopefully you will think back on this as these things are escalating and literally being fulfilled and realize what is happening.

    In closing, I don’t have any bad feeling towards any person here. It is your false teachings that grieve the Spirit in me.

    • For the record, I believe in both the Spiritual and literal fulfillment of prophecy. To do otherwise is to limit God to only one sphere of life. I will not do that. That is what distinguishes a Partial preterist, and why John Calvin was one. (Not that I am a fan of Calvin)
      I believe that God is sovereign over every Sphere of life.
      We can enter his resting place, here and now.
      We can become a new creation here and now.
      he is with us here and now.
      He was, and IS, and Is to Come.
      Messianics are looking for a messiah.
      fundamentalists are waiting for a rapture.
      He is here now, he is knocking at the door, waiting for you to let him in. This is not a salvation invitation, but an invitation to enter His Kingdom which is not of this world. The literal will come, when enough Saints open the door to him and let him in.
      “Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.”

  75. Dear Brother dm- Like this statement you say here below.
    If he was currently ruling the nations, it would be with a rod of iron and that couldn’t be further for the current state of things.

    Isa. 2: 4 And he=Jesus Christ shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
    This is the Coming of Jesus Christ in Israel’s day.

    Special note here.
    The Christian of Today are the people who turn from waring, and idolatry, and all of the worlds ways we reject it. We have turned our sword into plowshares. Jesus was not a warring Savior. He told the High Priest if His Kingdom was of this world then His disciples would fight. But thank God we are not a warring people. But Peaceful, loving, kind, gentle, yet stronger than the worlds Character. The Word of God is our Iron we use.
    The Bride today is ruling in Heavenly places. Yet living in natural circumstances.

    The church ages already say to the Overcomers were given a Rod of Iron. Yes to rule our own house with. The New Israel of God. To reject like Iron any thing a Government might tell us WE HAVE TO DO THAT IS WRONG or SINFUL.

    Dear Brother. God has ALWAYS Ruled all Nations with a Rod of Iron.
    God used the Assyrian’s in Isaiah’s day to destroy Israel for Idolatry. Then after God used the pagan Assyrian nation he destroyed it later and Babylon took over as the Head Nation right on down the line of Daniels Vision.

    Please Listen to me hear . When Jesus Christ came in His day. Imperial Rome and Israel were in an alliance together. Rome had allies all over Europe of that day even in the Middle east and North Africa.

    Now with that said. God used the Roman Empire to destroy Israel because again they were playing the Harlot with Rome. And Money was one of their downfalls. Paul said it. And Israel said we have no King But Caesar. Imperial Rome was next on the list for their Judgment. Our God is a jealous God amen. Cause the Jews were still Gods people. And they were not all evil.
    And God used a “rod of Iron” and earthquakes, and plagues of all kinds mentioned in the book of Revelations. After 70 A.D. = seals –
    And that is what most of the Book of Revelation is about. The 70 A.D war and after. Yes the Lord would not allow Pagan Rome to destroy Christianity. “”In the Beginning””.
    Yet look at us today 2,000 yrs. later in America. We got Judgment sitting on us and any day now we will be judged absolutely just like Israel. We have played the Harlot as well Rev. 17 &18 referring to Israel of that day . Christianity is nothing like the Christianity in the 1st. and or couple Centuries. Even Paul wrote an epistle to Rome cause they were Pentecost in the very beginning. Look at them now. So God started a revival for the last day church with Luther. Cause the Papa church of Rome was just like Israel went into complete paganism. Dark ages. And its affects are still in the Church to this day.

    DID YOU KNOW. That Christianity reigned over the World from AD.71 to 1,071. Even the Prophet Branham said in the sixties the “Roman church has already had their Millennium” . Rome went into Christianity and that started immediately after AD 71. Rev. 12 is telling us that. Jews and Gentiles both.

    We Christians also have a “Rod of Iron” which is Christ the Spirit and Word of God. What came out of Jesus Mouth – what was His name The Word of God.

    All Nations will fell when they turn against Gods People.

    Palisade.

  76. All herein is scriptural

    There is likely no pre-trib rapture. It’s not Biblical. The second coming will certainly be rapturous though.

    A cash less society will absolutely evolve, and will be used to compel as many as will, to worship the Beast and his image/icon/idol, by agreeing to the Beast’s authority by receiving His mark.

    The mark will NOT be a tattoo, or a microchip, or a credit card, etc., et.al. These things in and of themselves have no spiritual value.

    — “The Beast” was/is Rome/Vatican. There is no mistake on this point.
    — “The Whore” is Roman Catholicism. There is no mistake on this point.
    — “The whore” riding the Beast is Roman Catholicism. There is no mistake on this point.
    — “The Man of sin who takes away the daily” is the Pope. There is no mistake on this point
    — “The dragon” who gives power to the Beast is Satan. There is no mistake on this point

    The “Mark” of the Beast will involve disobeying part or parcel of God’s law.

    In ancient Greece, a mark on the forehead was considered conscience or choice. A mark in the hand was considered action or deed.

    God’s testament[blood] is immutable. The ten commandments are God’s moral law. No one argues this point.

    The fourth commandment is no exception to the law. The 4th commandment is very clear on the Sabbath, and like the other commandments, is immutable.

    The Seventh Day Sabbath is not to be confused with other festivals.

    When scripture says that those who worship the beast and receive his mark, it’s not talking about a microchip, or credit card, or tattoo.

    Sunday laws are popping up all over the world. There are abundant reports of guillotines having been shipped into the U.S.

    Dozens of Heptadic sequences in scripture prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Bible is authentic, and that the number seven is extremely significant, as are other number sequences; all of which cannot be found in any other known work, and could not have been done by man, EVER! Not in a googleplex x a googleplex of time. God’s authentication code cannot be denied.

    The Seventh Day Adventists may have their problems, what church doesn’t, but the Seventh Day Adventists are absolutely correct regarding this issue. There is no way around it!

    Over 500 Sabbatarian sects in the world have it correct too.

    The seventh millennium is upon us, and it’s showtime. We had all better study up

    The Apostle John stated that the anti-christ was here even now(in his time) – The anti-christ was and is Satan
    The false prophet is the Pope. There is no mistake on this

  77. To All- The body of Messiah has divided His Word, not so much to understand it, but to a large degree, to separate themselves from those things deemed no longer relevant! In particular Yah’s commandments. As long as we walk this earth in the flesh and have a spirit, we are subject to the laws that govern both, which will last at least until the end of the Seventh day! Yahshua himself was very dogmatic about it. He knew exactly what was coming after His sacrifice on the tree and the division that would rage over the flesh and the spirit, with the house of Yahuda clinging to His Word Torah and the house of Israel clinging to Messiah the Lamb, our Salvation, with the House of Israel seeing the Torah as a “strange thing” and Yahudah denying Yahshua!

    Yahshua made this declaration in Matthew chapter 5:

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5%3A17-18&version=CJB

    This never has been nor will ever be an either or situation, at least not until the earth passes away! Only in man’s understanding is that the case. The end of times is for the reconciliation of the House of Yahudah and The House of Israel to each other (and those gentiles who will join with them) , and then both to Yahshua, as one people, the Whole House of ISRAEL! They will walk in the spirit, in accordance with His commandments as one people, at least to the end of the Seventh Day!

    Shalom

  78. Spirituality and Truth:
    It is ALL about “Perception.” The “subconscious is actually the hidden light, while the carnal intellect is the outer darkness. Man with his intellect is but seeking a shadowy world of “Illusions” like the carrot before the horse, always learning, never coming to truth. “” To un-adulterated virgin truth.

    “”The outer darkness of human carnal intellect is a bottomless pit.””
    “”Within is the subconscious “spirit” and the spirit alone is eternal. It is truth, it never changes. “”
    “”It sleeps under the blanket of human intellect, and desires to be awakened, but men are content to eat from the shadowy world of darkness and sleep and to remain blind in their comfort of intellect reasoning.

    The thing about being blind and never having seen is that they never know they are blind, unless by “”some miracle they are awakened and the scales fall away and the stone is removed from before the tomb,”” then they “See” they have been blind.

    As Apostle Paul experienced. It was said he was a genius of the O.T. Yet blind as could be till Christ took off his scales and he seen the N.T- In its beginning of World Conquest. A Brand New World Creation by Christ= Rev. 3 “”The very Beginning of Creation”””. The Alpha and the Omega the AMEN of all Covenant’s up to NOW. Their is only ONE Covenant now—– NOT TWO. The Lord called Paul to “”Open the Mysteries of God” to His Brand New Church. But Paul had to see the Light of his Soul to see all his darkness with in it. Here is what Peter said about the great Paul below:

    II PETER 3:15- And account that the “”long suffering”” of our Lord is “”salvation””; even as our beloved “”brother Paul”” also according to the “”wisdom given unto him”” hath written unto you;
    II PETER 3:16- As also in “”all his epistles””, speaking in “”them of these things;”” in which are some “”things hard to be understood,”” which they that are “”unlearned and unstable wrest””, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their “”own destruction””.

    “””Paul saw a “”Light”” and heard a “”Voice”” and it “”took years”” for him to “””unravel the Mystery”” of it all. All his genius and understanding of the O.T. and N.T came to him in his wilderness with the New Testament Covenant for the whole world-Jew and Gentile. Law or Free
    Paul came out of the wilderness “”Preaching to the Jew and Gentile”” the whole world of that time as well. With blessing from the other Apostles. Paul seen a light and heard the Voice speak to him. He had to get his blinders off and go to the “street called strait” to see and understand the NEW COVENANT LIGHT. The “”Whole council of God”” has to come by LIGHT to the soul of man. But most are already indoctrinated just like Paul was. He had to “”unlearn”” all that he learned to KNOW CHRIST. Paul said that. So DO WE GOT TO DO IT as well. Only a remnant will sacrifice to do it. I’m not talking about Preachers. I’m talking about laymen.

    Light is to see, to see what is in the light is to find truth. In darkness is but illusion and shadows that change and appear as real but is not.
    “”We are Spirits, having a Human Experience”“. Do we understand that.

    If the spirit is not awakened then it remains eternally in the tomb of the outer illusions of shadows and fears and torments and lies, it remains dead eternally alone. “”But If awakened it can never sleep anymore but is alive eternally, “”discovering the truth within of Light“”. Seeing the Eternal Truth then it has propagated an “”eternal faith and will”” that seals it to its eternal reward of joys and peace and life and sure foundations. Eph. 4:30

    “”Men seek an eternal foundation, but are not willing to sacrifice themselves to find it.”” WHY? Cause it is a lot of WORK and a SLOW process. If you have never argued with the scripture then you have NEVER studied it much. Your whole Heart and soul has to have the truth. Not a substitute. A little leaven to a serious layman or Apostle is not an option.

    So blind men by their laziness they just keep walking in blindness till indoctrinated fully. They are ignorant of themselves and they reason by saying, “but their is no evidence I am blind”, “so you must be the blind one”. This is what we have today. Because no one wants to study for years. Most church’s today only got one or two main doctrines they know is truth to them. Church has just become a ritual of coming once a week.

    “”The only evidence one who has awakened can show them is to “trust” them first and then they “”must be willing”” to “””believe in the impossible””” and to “””deny their own thoughts and ideas””” and “”die to themselves””.

    “”Most will never ever do this””. Because they see the life they claim to have is the only life there is and they certainly are “””not willing to go by pure invisible Faith and Trust in something “unseen”. Yet the “”unseen world”” can never be seen except by pure childlike innocent Faith and Truth.”” Hello Christians- have we became children yet are still trying.

    So the subconscious is the real light and the conscious is the real darkness. We have within us, as we are a “”Temple, a Body, an Ark or a Container, a Vessel,””” and we have Light and Darkness, a Soul and a Spirit within One Body to begin with. While in this world most walk in the intellect of carnal human soulish intellectualism and not Spiritualism. America is probably the worse Nation in the world for not being “Spiritual” they to busy lusting after ALL things.

    We are taught to be intellectual in this world and get a great education 12 years then another 4 or 8 years. If that is what it takes to understand the worlds way. What about Christianity and the seriousness of the Truth.

    Oh you say my Pastor went to Bible college. That don’t mean nothing. Most that are real get out of those denominations sooner or later. Its worse than not going cause you just end up programed to death.
    “” In the O.T they had prophet schools watching Elijah and Elias. They were taught in groups of fifties in the caves. Did you ever hear of one of them doing anything good. NO. What about “Micah” taking on 400-450 prophets of “”””Jezebel.”””= unfaithful wife Rev. 2 or 3. One out of about 450 said the same thing. But it takes a real Prophet to stand up to them all. We are looking at “” OUR TODAY”” while I’m writing this.

    “”We all cannot learn all at once. Its a Progressive Revelation to us all. Jesus Christ had to learn as well to stand off his critics. Started at 12 we know of. and John and other disciples of Christ- ignorant unlearned men. They turned the whole world upside down.

    That is Just the way it is in the falling of every World age. The “”Word”” becomes “”darkness and foreign to them””. Its to Simple in our day as well. Jesus could not help the majorities in his age they were given over completely to the Sanhedrin devils and false teachers .”” Killing millions of Jews in the War of 70 A.D.

    Jesus even with His miracles, and Thus saith the Lord. And fulfilling every scripture to the T. They hated HIM still. Thought HIM to be a devil a fake. He told the TRUTH to His generation.

    Yet from Pentecost on He gave the Word to the Church by ”Holy Men” and many were idiots to the world. But then there was some Like Paul and the Apostles and many, many more we have never heard of. God uses man to carry his torch in every generation and age. And only a remnant will listen today Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the same, Yesterday, today and tomorrow. He never changes His plans but Just magnifies His simplicity to those that will hear what the spirit is saying to the Church.
    “””All Jesus did was magnify Moses Message””” and made “”it so Simple”” to understand. That a way faring man could understand and get saved and filled with the Holy Spirit. Acts. 2:38 That’s the only creed if you want to call it that in the Bible. Their is really no creed to get someone saved. Because we know not the heart. yet Acts. 2:38 is the right place to start. Then you will RECEIVE the Holy Spirit the mighty REST of God.

    In truth the Church ages in our day””Right Now”could already be over with and cut off. Israel sure was blind before AD 70 that is for sure. NOW that hits you hard I know it does. But The Lord knows the very last man to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus gave his enemies 37 years to understand His Message. And they would not have it. And in 70 A.D Jerusalem the temple and all of Israel had dead bodies laying all around not buried and every city was trampled over in Israel by the Scorched Earth policy of Rome – Yea Hitler must have read about Rome. Think about it friends.

    And “”The New World AGE had already “”Come like a thief in the night””. Israel was in “”total desolation”” and darkness surrounded it = Israel.

    Where was this New World Age church at. Answer = In the Wilderness growing in numbers. The Romans chased them but could not kill them all. They were all hid away in the desert in a city. Yet it seemed impossible they could do it. But they did it. Rev. 12. Said so. Jew and Gentiles.
    It was Jew and Gentile in the beginning of Pentecost the New World Creation. And its the same way NOW.

    YES INDEED: The Wolf will lay down by the Lamb. Oh my!!
    Rome took on Christianity as well. In Nero’s day.
    Jew and Gentile of all kinds came together and threw away their weapons of warfare and turned them into plow shares and loved each other. WAKE UP CHURCH – The Leopard – Greece layed down with the Jews and Muslim and Russians – bear and Christ Rules the earth Right Now From His Sea of Authority and HE gave us the same thing. All of Europe was Christian at one time or another. Christ called us Conquerors So reckon what Christ is. HE is THEE KING OF ALL THE NEW CREATIONS WORLD WIDE

    I feel sorry for people who think Ever man that has Jew blood in them are going back to Temple worship. You think ALL of Jewish blood is going to be saved. It sure did not save them in 70 A.D. They had the temple. They had the bulls etc. It did not help them one bit. They were in complete darkness.
    A secret revealed maybe to some below.
    NOW the ALL of Israel is just “”a remnant”” goes into Christ.

    Yes Israel become a Nation in ONE DAY. God fulfilled that promise already after WW2. That’s all HE GOD done for them when they become a Nation. they already had the right to call on Jesus Christ anytime. But it must be by Jesus Christ ONE COVENANT
    So simple but confusing to the modern day prophets. Israel needs a revival as bad as all the countries of this modern world. Most have already left Christ for another god of some kind. Evil reigns in all the world. Israel is just as the rest.

    Jesus Christ plainly said he would tear the Temple down in HIS generation and its a FACT that is what HE was saying. He told us plainly in Matt. 24. The Temple was to be destroyed in THEIR generation. And it was a doctrine of that age of the Apostles that spread the news to all they could. Millions died a martyr’s death that is for sure. But God was sure to have HIS REMNANT in the Wilderness cause nothing was going to stop HIM from ruling all Nations which HE Always had did. That’s a No Brainer. But their was a great number that did survive and here we are today in our day. The 5th. Seal of THAT DAY had many a martyr in it crying for justice under that Seal.

    Now how many will be in our 5th. Seal of today. Yes it will be staggering before it’s over with America and this world. Their are still millions since Hitlers 77 million died in WW2. And 6 million Jews died in torture camps along with many Millions dying that were not Jews. Hey it ain’t over yet. We are gong to have our own 5th. Seal of this age.
    Israel is a Nation like all others are now. They will have to except their ONE COVENANT which is a everlasting Covenant that Christ gave them Over 2 thousand years ago. They played the Harlot with Egypt and Rome in their day. Jesus called them Sodom. Unfaithful, Idolator’s, unbelievers, money was their idol and was their down fall in Romes day. And they were worshipers of the god of comfort and ease.

    Palisade

    • Tom, You cling to one aspect of a comprehensive truth! Man is a spiritual being that walks this earth in a body of flesh. I will ask you as others have been asked; following Shavuot, after Messiah’s sacrifice and resurrection, if everything became internal, why did Messiah teach what He did concerning keeping the commandments; why did the Apostles walk in the Spirit while observing the commandments, including Paul??? They knew and understood that keeping the commandments didn’t bring them salvation, but they did it anyway! What did they know that the Christian Church doesn’t know, even now, including you? It is great to emphasize the wonderful love Messiah has for us and the spiritual gifts and understaning He has revealed to us, but not at the cost of the rest of scripture! Lack of understanding in this will bring a high cost when we stand before Messiah Yahshua, the Righteous Judge, on that day.

      Honestly, when I read what you write, it brings back memories of the writings of the Catholic mystics. What you are saying and doing is nothing new. We were meant to understand the end from the beginning, not the end from the end! But then that is what the Christian Church does and has always done! Otherwise they might come to the the understanding of the TRUTH, given from the beginning to be revealed at the end. Your problem is not what you believe, but rather what you refuse to believe! I believe you mean well, but your negative opinion of certain things has tainted your ability to see the whole picture! Take off the bifocals and allow Messiah to heal your vision!

      Shalom

      • al

        are you saying we should break the 10 commandments?

        • Marianne- No! What did I say that made you think that?

          • ok, well salvation or not, 10 commandments are to be kept…they are just not the way to salvation, but after salvation, they have to be obeyed still.

            some people discard obeying the law after salvation

            • Well said Marianne,

              Some claim that the 10 commandments were nailed to the cross. That’s untrue

              The ten commandments are moral law, and holy.

              • dan

                the only exception to obeying the law was the sacrifice for sins…..jesus did this for us. there are other commandments, but they are not in effect since there is no temple to do them in. the sacrificial system is gone, at least for now….when the millenial rule begins, the feasts will be celebrated in the temple, and sacrifices possibly reinstated for a celebration…not to gain forgiveness. today we call it a BBQ. 🙂

                • If I understand your meaning, correct. Jesus’s sacrifice did away with animal sacrifice.

                  The sacrificial system will very likely not be reinstated. It was done away with. The original intent of animal sacrifice was to feel the pain of such loss, and to impress upon men, that of the hope that the future Messiah/Lamb would fulfill the ultimate sacrifice.

                  To reinstate such sacrifices would be going backward.

                  I’m up for BBQ though. Anytime!

          • Marianne- the only thing meant was that salvation is a gift through the shed blood of Messiah Yahshua and not something earned by our own merit or abilities! That is what the ongoing conversation is, law vs grace! We need the commandments for the sanctification of the flesh! It is a difficult topic that the enemy has used to cause division from the beginning. For completeness in the kingdom of heaven, according to Yahshua, both receiving salvation through His shed blood and the keeping of His commandments are necessary! But He also makes a place for those who receive Him as Messiah the Lamb, but breaks even the least of His commandments and teaches others to do so, thereby being called least in the kingdom of heaven, with the defining aspect being a lack of respect and obedience to His commands and telling (teaching) others to do the same! What exactly being the least is, I am not sure. Just know I don’t want to have anything to do with it!

            If you see it differently I would be interested in hearing it.

            Shalom

            • i agree

            • Al,
              I agree with this comment, but you need to rest in him. That means resting from your works (religion), and letting him dwell in you (relationship). When we say Jesus fulfilled the law, this is what we mean. Our obedience is our submission to the will of God. Not our works which we can boast in…..Blessed are the meek….Meekness is equivalent to submission to God, and takes great trust in Him to submit to his will.

  79. Beacon,

    You have light and speak the truth. Amen

    However, there are physical world stuff that will happen. The Bible is a multifaceted (at least 4 levels) instruction manual. It is all not just spiritual in nature. I assume you know that.

    To expand on your revelations. YHVH is not done with Israel (the Country and Israelites of the Judah, Ben and Levite tribes) just yet! They were set aside for the “fullness of times of the Gentiles” (nations- actually nations of true Israelites, lost tribes, and others) is complete.

    The “remnant” (Judah, Ben, Levite) is to be tried with fire in the tribulation among with others. Their scales will drop off at that time (true Israelites not the Edomites, called Jews) and then they will “hear and see” the truth. The Church and Bride of Christ (his body) will be taken away.

    You said – ” “”The only evidence one who has awakened can show them is to “trust” them first and then they “”must be willing”” to “””believe in the impossible””” and to “””deny their own thoughts and ideas””” and “”die to themselves””. – How true: One must be willing to become a “slave” or servant of Christ and understand what that truly means. People of light know and accept the outcome. We have our citizenship in Christ (Heaven), not an earthly real.

    Those who have ears “hear” and those who have eyes “see”.

  80. It is man’s traditions that are myth. The truth can hurt sometimes.

    Rom 9 : 6 – 8 6: But it is not though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel. 7: neither, because they are Abraham’s seed, are they all children; but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8: That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

    11: for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, 12 it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger.

    Only in Christ Jesus is there rest and peace. Worthy is the Lamb.

    • In Christ Jesus, there is neither Jew nor gentile, for we are all one people.
      Christ followers.
      There is still a time coming when Israel the nation will see him whom they have pierced and repent. The veil will be removed from their eyes. But as Marianne said, it will be through the fire of tribulation.

  81. To CV and all.
    Just a simple little thing to say. After the Death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It brought a Cross Roads between the Two Covenants. Yet God in Mercy allowed the Jew 37 years to make it right and receive Jesus Christ.
    I do not personally think he was waiting on a certain tribe to come it. The unbelieving Jew experienced the great Judgment in 70A.D which destroyed most all of them.
    They had the chance to hear the gospel by the Apostles. All the apostles stayed in Jerusalem for 3 years or better before they were sent out.
    So every tribe had 37 years to repent before the O.T Judgment. Which went into ashes. And Bodies laid in every city by the Scorched Earth Policy of Rome.
    Being filthy still or Righteous still. Un-beleiving Jew went into Judgment the other went into Rev. 12 to hide anywhere they could get away from the Roman Empire.

    When God was done on the 490 years of Daniel. It was completed by Jesus Christ resurrection and raising from the dead. And the other was Judgment in 70 AD. They had grace for 37 years. Resurrection 1st And another 3-1/2 period of War fulfilled the 490 years. The Jewish and Rome war. 3/1/2 yrs.

    Who ever wanted to become a Christian could have. But by this 37 years of time they had all made their decisions on both sides. It will be like that in this day as well I truely believe.
    When Israel and or all nations gets to their Filthy still and Righteous still condition then its over. I think the Church of America is going to have Judgment come on them very soon.
    Gentile was blind when Israel was ruling.
    Now The Church is blind till the last real Jew or other believing one’s are taken in then its like Peter said below.

    11 Pet, 3:10 But the “day of the Lord will come” “as a thief in the night;” in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    II PETER 3:11- ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be “dissolved”, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

    II PETER 3:12- Looking for and hasting unto the “coming of the day of God,” wherein the “heavens being on fire” shall be dissolved”, and the “elements shall melt” with fervent heat? = This did not happen at Resurrection.
    a. Dear Brethren and Sisters. Peter was looking for the “”Coming of the Lord”” in that day not 2,000 years later. Because the Lord told his disciples and explained to them the ending of their age. Matt.24: 3 and on reveal the 7 seals. It was Jesus teaching them to his disciples. And He came just like he said HE would. Judgment time finally arrived. Christ came down in that age or generation of people saw it and watched it. I do not think Christ every left that age. The 490 years was for Israel. Then the New Day Come.

    Rev, 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the “”Amen””, the “”faithful and true witness””, the “”beginning”” of the “””creation of God;””” – Yea this is the NEW DAY of Millennium.
    1. We are not the tail anymore but the Head. Any Weapon formed against me will not prosper. You can take up serpents and they will not kill you. On and on and on. The Jew and Gentiles will sit together in Peace and Harmony. Joy to the World. If God be for is who can be against.
    a. It Happened in 70 A.D Just like it will in our day. A thief in the night. and other things being dissolved, Elements shall melt — with fervent heart.
    b. As the Jew kept going to the synagogue ever sabbath for 37 years. Did not help himself one bit. Got more Blinded than a bat. Just like our church today.

    II PETER 3:13- Nevertheless “”we””, according to “”HIS promise””,= Jesus Promise – look for “”New Heavens and a New earth””, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Remember Peter was martyred in the a.d 50’s I think.
    a. Yea and amen Peter. The Christians of that generation were still looking for the Coming JUDGEMENT to come in Jerusalem. As they were told.
    b. The Old Testament and bulls and goats and high priest, and Especially the TEMPLE HAD to BE destroyed for ever. Jesus wiped it out forever.
    c. For a New day had to Come and the Old Moses Temple had to go. Are the Jews would have picked it back up and made another “god” of stone again.

    That was never to happen again. The King had Finally Came as the Thief.
    Though many watched from the out skirts on mountains etc. And seen many miracles and Bright lights left the Holy Place.
    Rev. 11:19 The Ark become seen. And the light fled in 7 ways. = beginning of N.T Church was in the working at that moment.

    “””It was Jesus who took on the Embodiment of the two prophets””. You will never see these two prophets on this planet I do not believe. They had already been with Jesus before His Crucifixion and it was symbolic of the O.T and N.T Church’s. The two wings with healing in them. Mal. 4
    1. They had 42 months or 1, 260 =3-1/2 year period. That was Jesus Christ Crucified in Rev. 11 not two prophets . Those two prophets were his Witnesses as the same on Mt. Transfiguration. Jesus meet Abraham with
    two witnesses to eat with him then sent Moses and Elijah to Sodom.
    While God give Abraham his Miracle baby.
    2. Moses speaks of the O.T. ending while Elijah speaking for the N.T. made the way for Christ. John came to reveal Christ to the N.T Word of Faith.
    3 The Tomb of Jesus were 2 angels with him. Oh yea. Moses and Elijah.
    4. At the Crucifixion Yea Moses and Elijah was right their. But it was Jesus that was crucified and then raised up for all them to see. And it scared them.
    5. Let everything have at least 2 or 3 witnesses and 3 is even better. Only time in the Bible people sent gifts that I know of when someone was crucified. It was Jesus Christ Embodiment in symbols of Elijah and Moses. But it was just Only Jesus Christ that died and raised. For the whole World.

    1. And in Rev. 11:15 to 19 Christ had Come To Reign. He was reigning after His own resurrection. Talking to many people even up to 500 at once.
    Rev. 10 and 11 are to be read in unity. Because that is the way John meant it to be. Rev. 10:1-6. “””Christ Came Down””” for goodness sake – and had the 7 Seals opened in his hand and John knew what they were. Yet Christ said wait and open them later. John had to eat the book then Prophesied and opened it up to all of believers.
    2. The Lamb of God revealed every Seal in the Bible. The 7th. Seal is the COMING of CHRIST in Rev. 10 To the End of Rev. 11. Just a fact.
    After that Came Rev. 12 Jesus New Bride in the Wilderness.= Jew & Gentile

    The Mysteries are so good. Its like Honey in the Rock until you meet people and they make you bitter to your stomach. That is just the way it is.

    Palisade.

    • Tom– Again, you are getting the cart before the horse, declaring the end out of the end! This is what Messiah the Word has to say:

      Isaiah 46:10

      Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel will stand, and I will do all My pleasure

      What is the beginning? Is it not Bereshit-Genesis

      What is the end? Is it not Hitgalut-Revelation. The Hebrew word means “unveiling”. Basically to discover or understand something!

      Understand the things that happened in the beginning (you know that old irrelevant covenant that has ” passed away”) and then you will receive revelation (understanding) of what is happening in the end! You spiritualize everything and have no foundation for anything! I know you mean well, but you are lost in a maze of your own doing, by trying to understand the end out of the end. Go back to the beginning an do your due diligence!

      Shalom

  82. hey Al Im writing a commentary on Rev. 10 and 11 these last few days. But I will get back with you. Al or dmcal might want to read it as well. To long to put on here. I will have to put it in pieces. But then its harder to understand.
    anyway have a great day
    Bro. tom
    Palisade.

  83. Al When God does things it is perfection. He knows the first things and the last things. He is alpha and omega- He know’s it all or He is not God and we could not trust Him. If he does not know the Beginning from the End. And it never changes. Maybe HE don’t know what your Name is even on the book. God knows Everything and we do not. We just study and study to show oursleves approved of Him in the scriptures. How about you explaining your question to me again. In simple terms. ok
    Here is my take on it. below
    Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ the SAME yesterday, today, and forever. That is the way it is. The Fallen man that wants to stay fallen will stay fallen. God knows that and his name is NOT on the Book of Life. But the remnant that wants to rise from the Grave will have his name of the Book of Life. God put them their before the foundation of the world. Cause He knew us before we ever knew him. Hello dear Brother.

    Its our walk and our faith that has to find out who we really are . Real Believer or False Believers. I guess that is what you are looking for. God knows our beginning and End. He knows If you will be a Follower of Him or not a follower of him.

    So really Isa. 46:10 You would have to read the whole chapter and get into it to understand it. I do not think you understand what you are saying as well. Maybe we both crazy. If I am I’m happy this way and love Jesus with all my heart. The question you come up with. Explain it to me, Tare it down and show me piece at a time. Maybe you will convince me of something.

    AS it was in the Old — It is still that way in the New – WHY Cause its meant to be that way always the same. Some men cannot deal with God – But others Love their God.

    Palisade

    • Tom- I find it incredible that you use the verse- Messiah Yahshua the same yesterday, today, and forever! Think about it for just a second……times up. If He is the same forever (in the future), He would have to be the same today, right? If He is the same today, He would have to be the same yesterday (in the past-the beginning)!? If Yah started things off one way and He changes not, HOW then did He change everything at the end, as you say that He did? According to you, Yah basically annulled a good 3/4ths of scripture by crossing His own Word! Maybe Yah really didn’t mean what He said!? Your argument is ridiculous and makes no sense.

      What Yahshua did was to offer Himself as our sacrificial lamb thus doing away with the animal sin offering required by Yah, He also became our High Priest and there by nullifying the levititical priesthood. That is it! That is what He did away with, which is why He had the temple in Yerushalayim destroyed in 70 AD! Yahshua, when He was here at His first coming made it clear that not one jot or tittle of His commandments would be done away with until the VERY end. You can ignore it or do what you will, that is up to you!

      Shalom

      • Al,
        What has changed is our relationship and communion with God. This is redemption of that which was lost. So, no God has not changed, but we have. We have either changed for the better, or for the worse.

        The bible clearly says that Jesus fulfilled the Law. He IS the Law. If he is residing in us, and we are his temple, then the Law has been written on our hearts. Not on tablets of stone. for example, the fourth commandment, He is our resting place, when we come to know him, we learn to rest from our works, and trust in him, and rest in him, an his work on the cross. This is difference between the spirit of religion, and the Holy Spirit. I cannot boast in my works, as my obedience is the work of the Holy Spirit leading me to Obey his commandments. Thus my part in all of this is submitting to the will of God and allowing him to teach me, and allowing His good Spirit to lead me on level ground! (Psalm 143)
        Shalom

  84. Tom- I have a question for you. If you do not understand anything about the Tanakh (OT), why do you argue against it so hard? That is not a wise thing to do. I have misunderstood somethings concerning our conversations and am going to curtail this. My prayer is that you find more understanding in the ways of Messiah Yahshua and find completeness in Him!

    Shalom and Blessings to you

  85. Al – I study the O.T as well. You cannot even learn about Christ without understanding the O.T. prophesies. Jesus Christ fulfilled them all.
    If the “”Whole Church of Today”” understood the O.T we could probably all get together. But a lot of the O.T is symbols so that is where most get off the boat. You will never discover the mysteries by a literal sense of knowledge. The disciples were taught by the Master Himself. Yet never hardly “caught a Revelation” until after HE Rose. And they could not even believe that. Because HE was to Spiritual for them all. TILL they received the Holy Spirit on day of Pentecost. Then they said lets get into the Word continually. It was a dark day when Jesus walked into Jerusalem. This day is the same as that day to me. Christianity is almost a joke today among the World. Because like Israel they just took up a form of it. Always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth. = Somebody is not listening to the Holy Spirit I would say.

    Now for you – If Jesus Christ fulfilled all O.T scriptures. – then why did Israel not understand the Lord Jesus was the Messiah. He was right in front of them daily. But they hated him mostly.

    So here is a Question for you Bro. Al. Why did they not know that was their Messiah. Let me know ok.

    Bro. tom alias Palisade.

    • Since Al will not answer this question, I will, as this is the very heart of what I have been trying to say here.
      There is a lack of pursuing the relationship with Jesus, and too much pursuit of knowledge for Knowledge sake. In other words their faith was in their teachings and leaders, and not in the revelation. Even the disciples tended to stray back to the physical asking Jesus how wonderful the temple was, and who was greatest among them. They could not yet comprehend his kingdom was not of this world. Not based on the reason of the Greeks, and the religion of the Jews.

      18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,

      “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
      and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

      20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. (1 Cor. 1)

      That is the problem as outlined in the letter to the Laodicea church as well. They thought they were wise, rich, and in need of nothing, but Jesus said they are poor miserable, blind and naked etc. Jesus counseled them to buy gold from him, was this physical gold? Or white garments and eyesalve, were these physical clothes? No they are of the Holy Spirit. The Wisdom of God is pure gold, the sanctification of the Spirit makes us whiter than snow, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit opens our eyes which are our Spiritual eyes.
      We need to seek The presence of the Lord, and not dwell in the knowledge and teachings of men. We need to pursue a relationship with Jesus not knowledge about him. He is here now, knocking at the door of your heart, but you must acknowledge your weakness and humble yourself before him, and he will come to you and sup with you.
      Good question Beacon. As this is the heart of the problem the modern church faces.

      • A- You interject yourself again and make an untrue statement! “Since Al will not answer this question, I will”. This is a blog not a conference call! You are an instigator and nothing less. But since you are here answer this question, which as I remember, you never answered before;

        “Just as a side note, the House of Israel for approx 300 years kept the Commandments and had the testimony of Messiah Yahshua, after His resurrection! That is how the Christian Church evolved into iniquity=lawlessness!”

        That includes Messiah Yahshua, the Apostles including Rav Shaul,
        and the believer’s who followed for approx. 300 years. But according to you and the Christian Church, they had evidently been deceived or just plain wrong in their thinking!?!? If that is not true, then you explain it. Was the renewed Covenant incomplete, with the Christian Church, 300 years after the fact, to determine how we were to walk before our Elohim?

        Since you have nothing better to do than sit around and time people on their responses I will expect a quick reply!

        Shalom

        • Yes, sorry for that. I do not have internet, so I cannot just jump on my computer (which I bought for 50$ at a pawn shop), and just answer your questions.
          To answer your question, which is more of a leading statement full of opinions, The Jewish people reverted back to their Judaism, and man made religion, all you have to do is read Galatians, to see this, or the letters to the churches in revelation. Some not so pretty words there used by Jesus to describe them, “synagogue of Satan”. The Apostles understood the Spiritual was being fulfilled. They understood that the church was not an earthly kingdom. They understood that Jesus would come again to establish his reign on this earth, but believers first needed to give birth….They intricately understood that the woman was the church from Micah 5.
          Therefore he shall give them (Israel) up until the time
          when she (Church)who is in labor has given birth;
          then the rest of his brothers shall return
          to the people of Israel.
          The question, what is the church to give birth to? You cannot answer this, because you think the church needs to revert back to Judaism. You would do well to do a study on this, as this is one of the factors in the restoration of Israel.
          Paul, yes he celebrated the feasts, I have no problem there, No more than an American celebrating the fourth of July. But they all pointed to Jesus. He knew that, and even said they are shadow of Jesus, (Assuming he wrote Hebrews.)
          Now I am by no means a defender of Churchianity. The church is to be a steppingstone into a relationship with Jesus. For the Jews, it was a stumbling stone. To the greeks it was foolishness. The Church was built upon the rock of Peter’s confession of the Lordship of Christ, but that is not the end of our walk, to belong to a church. We must That is where the doctrinal fundamentalists got stuck, they could never take that last step into the Arms of Jesus and into his resting place, where we move from doctrine to revelation, that is why most fundamentalist churches are dead to the working of the Spirit.

          Cont.

    • Tom- Messiah came only for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes that had been taken captive by the Assyrians, and “mixed” with the nations, such as the Samaratins!

      Yah blinded The House of Yahudah, the Jews, to the fact that Yahshua was the Messiah, for His purposes! Strange how it was the Jews who pressed to have Messiah crucified, don’t you think? If they had known who He really was, they more than likely would have received Him as their king, but that was not what was needed. What was necessary was Messiah to shed His blood for the sins of His people, and all who would come to Him! Not until The House Of Yahudah declares Baruch baba b’shem Adonai will He return, which means Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

      Yah dealt with the House of Israel, from which the Christian Church “evolved”
      from, and that not in a good way, and the House of Yahudah , in different ways according to His will! Until you and the rest of the Christian Church gets some understanding into what Messiah is doing, you will be found on the wrong side of all of this!

      Just as a side note, the House of Israel for approx 300 years kept the Commandments and had the testimony of Messiah Yahshua, after His resurrection! That is how the Christian Church evolved into iniquity=lawlessness! Yah’s purpose is to reconcile His people, The House of Israel and The House Yahudah as brothers, on the mountains of Eretz Yisrael! Those who work against this are working against Messiah Yahshua!

      Since 1947 the Jews have been receiving their Messiah by the thousands, and it continues to this day, but the majority of the Christian Church has nothing but condemnation for them and describes them as filthy Jews! The House of Yahudah is on Yah’s timetable and so is the House of Israel, but for the most part, not the Christian Church!

      Shalom

  86. Agust – Amen! It is all about the relationship and wanting to know the truth.

    Al,

    Israel is more than just a small strip of land in the Middle East. Israel was scattered long ago even in Jesus’ time. Israel is also more than just the 12 tribes scattered in Europe because Abraham’s seed was also included by adoption. This is NOT a race thing. However, Israel spoken in prophesy is. However, you need to know who is and where is Israel NOW.

    Ask yourself, why did some believe Jesus and then later why others, spread abroad, believed Paul and the other Apostles and other Jews didn’t? The Jews spoken of in the bible did not believe nor of this day believe in Jesus. They held out for their own works and knowledge. They were blinded then and now because of their own work. God scattered Israel long ago for a so HIS word could be received in his people and then bring it to others There are tares within the wheat. Do not mix Old (old covenant) wine skins with the new wine skins (NT)

    Israel the remnant (practicing Jews) was set aside and the new covenant (better) has taken over. This is when the blinding started for the Jews. The Holy Spirit is our comfort and rest and will give all understanding. When the times of the Gentiles (nations) are complete then God will start to deal with Israel (Judah or the others that are blinded) again. For a short time, the true Word will be with them and some will see Jesus in their feast and scarifies and start to reject the whore (Judaism) and likely flee to the wilderness. This will be at the start of the Tribulation and at the end of the Feast of Trumpets.

    The “Church” is the called out which is the Body of Christ. We are the Children of God, Abraham’s seed (by Faith), the ones that have Light, soldiers for Christ, bondservants, destined to be Sons of God that are perfected in Christ. This is the only way we would ever be righteous. YHVH never wanted us to have a bondage of religion or scarifies or the Law. It would never be good enough.

    It was the Jews that rejected YHVH in the wilderness and wanted to stand by their self works. Jesus came to set us free from that bondage. Unfortunately most today in Christendom and religion go back to that bondage through religion, self works and worldliness.

    Graduate People! Repent and get out of elementary school teachings (Torah) and receive the truth. The WORD of God, Jesus.

    • CV- I am not going to waste anymore time on any of this until you, August, or Tom-Beacon-Palisade answer the question posed above;

      Why did Messiah, the Apostles, Rav Shaul (Paul), and the believers in Messiah Yahshua for over three centuries, following the resurrection of Messiah, walk in the testimony of Yahshua and kept His commandments? What changed that the Christian church decided they didn’t need to walk in the ways of those who wrote scripture, according to the leading of Ruach HaKodesh, after 300 years of obedience??? If you cannot answer that, the question then arises; whose word is the Christian Church following?? If not Messiah’s word-if not the Apostle’s words-if not Rav Shaul’s words, then whose words and ways are you following????? Lest you think you can answer this by saying I am following Paul, you need to understand up front, the Christian Church is oblivious to Paul’s intent and meaning! But if you feel so inclined, go with it and we will see how it works out!

      None of this is personal, just dealing with 1700 years of misinformation!

      Shalom

  87. What commandments are you referring to? They did not keep the Sabbath or sacrifices, or any other Judaism practices. They did observe the feast but as a teaching tool and for recognizing of the times. They went to the Synagogues because they were teaching to the lost sheep. Where else would someone go to reach a bunch of Jews and when? Doh! Saturday at the Synagogue. COG folks have just as much blinders on than anyone. NO LIGHT!

    There is NOT one thing in the NT that says to keep the LAW! On contrary PAUL said not to be judged or observe. Peter ate with Gentiles, ate pork etc… Philip ministered to a Ethiopian and to the Samaritans which was against the law.

    If you are saying that they kept the Holy Spirit’s command (instructions) well then I’m sure they did. The Law was fulfilled and Jesus is their righteousness. There is NOT one scripture in the NT that’s says to keep the Law of Moses. Jesus says to keep His commandments.

    There was a short time when the remaining Apostles kept the practices, however, they were directed to and most likely out of habit. They were still trying to get the Kingdom of God here on earth. Maybe it would have come if the Jews didn’t reject Jesus because of the stumbling stone (the Law) and then were set aside (divorced) until the fullness of the Gentiles.

    What changed in year 300 was the error of religion, self righteousness, law and they went back to the bondage. God has his plan and this is not a surprise to Him.

    As his people we need to grow up and that’s what we have been doing since Adam sinned. We were infants – no law just YHVH grace (always has been), then we became toddlers (the law), at Jesus’ time we were ready (not really) to receive the Kingdom message (elementary school),, Paul’s epistles (middle school) introduced the Body of Christ (salvation thru faith in Jesus and Grace of God). After the resurrection we were to grow up but religion and the RCC stymied our growth (just like Satan to do that). Through out the centuries the Body of Christ has been building project.

    Stand in your righteousness and see what that brings!

    • you think Peter ate pork? 😦

    • But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. john 7:49

      go to http://www.blueletterbible.org/

      type in the word law

      start with new testament

      you can read all the verses

    • CV–Chapter and verse where Peter ate scavenger meat. If you are talking about the vision of unclean animals given to Peter, to get him to enter the house of Cornelius, it had nothing to do with eating of any kind! Concerning the Sabbath, what you don’t like to hear you deem as being irrelevant, even though it is stated clearly in scripture! Anyone can worship YHVH any day of the we they choose to, which we do, but not at the expense of denying His Sabbath, given from the creation of man and reaffirmed by His Instructions, Yahshua, the Apostles (all of them), and the first 3 centuries of believers!!! Do so to your own detriment!

      Shalom

  88. CV-
    http://www.eliyah.com/85times.html

  89. Al,

    That proves nothing. I said they went to the synagogues on the Sabbaths. Where else are you going to teach the Jews? I was a RC for 45 years and if I wanted to change their minds today where would I go to reach a bunch of catholics. I would go to mass on Sunday and try to teach them (if allowed).

    That’s where they could be reached. They went to the Synagogues because that’s where they could find their people. The bible never says they observed the sabbath as Moses instructed. During the week I’m sure they were working etc… The one time and location to reach most Jews would have been on Saturday in the Synagogue.

    This is someone’s idea (man) that speculates about they kept the Sabbath. All through out the NT it is CLEAR that all aspects of the Law were gone. It is for the unrighteous people and if you are the Called then you have Christ IN you. No need for anything (work) else by faith we are justified!

    Marianne, disappointed in you but here goes.

    Mat 5:17 – but to fulfill the law Mat 5:18 till all things be accomplished – He Did those

    Mat 5:40, Mat 7:12, Mat 11:13 – the law prophesied until John (about Jesus) purpose of the law.

    Mat 12:2 and 12:4 Mat 15:2 Mar 2:24- disciples doing what is Not Lawful to do on the Sabbath.
    Mat 12:10 Jesus healed on the Sabbath.
    Mat 22:36-40 explains the true law

    Yes Jesus practice the law perfectly prior to his Baptism of repentance and then He preached the Kingdom of God is at hand.

    Do you not read the Bible or do you stop at the Gospels or just the OT? Read Romans sometime or Hebrews? Rom 2 and 3 really explain the law. Paul even states at the end of Romans 3:31 “Do we then make the law of none effect though faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law. ” Then he goes on to establish the law by FAITH. That Religious Spirit must GO!

    • you are carefully selecting out other scriptures.

      there is no religious spirit associated with obedience to god out of LOVE and FAITH

    • Greetings CV,

      It is good to see someone else contending for the truth of the gospel. This post is primarily to those who are opposing you and to contend for the truth you have been proclaiming. The fact is that, according to the law of Moses, associating with Gentiles was forbidden and that because they were deemed unclean. So, regardless of what food Peter ate or didn’t eat, he would have been breaking the law by eating with them. This is exactly why Paul withstood Peter to his face and that because, when the Pharisee group came he separated himself from the Gentiles, trying to appease both sides. Peter would have acted in accordance with the gospel, if when the Pharisee group arrived he would continued to eat with the Gentiles, ignoring the Pharisees association with the law, and that even if he was eating pork or any other unlawful food. For regarding the food that was previously deemed as unclean according to the law, Scripture says:

      “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For EVERYTHING God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Tim.4:3-5)

      And that includes all food that was written in the Law of Moses that was deemed unclean. For regarding the issue of observing holy days, abstaining from foods, Sabbaths, etc., Scripture says:

      “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Col. 2:16-17)

      You’d think that if the keeping of the Sabbath day on Saturday or any day was a requirement for salvation, that it would have been stated over and over again throughout the new testament writings, but not once is it ever mentioned as a requirement. Further more, if the Sabbath was a requirement for salvation, you’d think that it would be mentioned somewhere in the seven letters to the churches or even in the book of Revelation. Yet, the word Sabbath does not even appear in the book of Revelation, not even once! And again regarding the Sabbath Jesus said, “the Sabbath was made to benefit man and not man to benefit the Sabbath.” Yet people are claiming that our eternal lives hang in the balance unless we keep on a certain day. Personally, from the time I wake up until the time I go to sleep, whether I am in the shower, driving my car, sitting on my couch, lying on my bed, at work or wherever! I am literally meditating on God and his word. I set time aside every day to study and pray. Therefore, it is not just Saturday that I set aside for God, but every day.

      Any time a person brings in another requirement along side the shed blood of Christ, that person is in essence saying to the Lord, your sacrifice was insufficient. We should be focused completely on Christ who paid in full the price for our sins, without any help from us! For salvation does not depend on man’s efforts. But people just will not let go of it and that because they always want to take credit for it by their own efforts. When a person trusts in their own efforts it will have the opposite of the desired affect keeping them from eternal life. Salvation is not by keeping the Law of Moses, by abstaining from certain foods, by observing holy days, but by having faith in Christ apart from observing the works of the law. I like the NLT which says,

      The best way to not break the law is to have no law to break.

      Now for some reason, there are those people out there who equate not being under the law as to mean free reign to sin. There is something wrong with those who have that spirit. We are under a new covenant in the shed blood of Christ and not under the old covenant of the law, period! The law brings wrath when we fail at it and no one is able to keep it. Jesus met the righteous requirements of the law completely and perfectly on our behalf rescuing us from the curse of the law. If we are following Christ and being led by the Spirit, then we will not be willfully sowing to the sinful nature, for the true believer will be fighting against it. And when we fail at anything, if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Now if anyone wants to keep a specific day to God, then there is nothing wrong with that, or if a person feels that they should not eat certain foods in honor to God, then there is nothing wrong with that. It is only when people make the observance of those things a requirement for salvation that they have wandered away from the truth.

      Regarding the issue of being circumcised and obeying the law of Moses, I would say the same thing that Peter said through the Holy Spirit:

      “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

      • I think there is still a lack of clarity on this:

        salvation by faith

        and then obedience BECAUSE we believe

        • Hi Marianne,

          When someone gives you say, a birthday gift, do you get out your wallet or purse in order to buy it from them? In comparison, the gift that God provided for us through Christ is the fulfillment of the law, that we never could meet and which only brought wrath upon us when we attempted to meet those requirements. Also part of the gift is the payment for our sins, past, present and future if we continue going from faith to faith. God wants our focus, not on our own efforts, but to trust in Christ that he fulfilled everything, that our hope is in him and not in our own efforts to earn our way in. Salvation is a free gift and we can rest in Christ knowing that he provided it.

          Let’s stop getting our purses and wallets out in an attempt to buy the gift of salvation and just receive with joy what God is giving freely. The law is gone and was not meant to last forever, for it is written:

          “Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. ”

          “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.”

          If Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law of Moses was given, then why is everyone still trying to earn it? We are saved by believing that Christ accomplished the purpose of the law and paid the penalty for our sins. It’s called faith! We are trusting in Christ for what he did and not in what we do.

          It is God who justifies the wicked!

          • i do not think that is a correct analogy.

            if I received a gift, I would want to show my appreciation by doing something nice that I know would please the giver

            • It is a correct analogy. By “doing something nice that I know would please the giver” is not how we obtain salvation, for that would be an attempt to earn it by our own efforts. When we received the Holy Spirit, we should naturally desired to do good works in order to glorify God through those works, to please him, to be about his business. But we are not doing good works to earn salvation, for Christ already provided that. We need to stop putting ourselves under the law to try to meet its righteous requirements and trust in Christ who already accomplished it and brought the law to an end. By going from faith to faith we are being transformed into his image, which is the fruit of the Spirit, growing in the characteristics of God, taking on his nature.

              The word “Grace” means “unmerited favor” or unearned favor. In other words, we don’t deserve it, but God gives it to us through his Son. For Christ alone purchased mankind for God with his own blood and he is not sharing the credit. Anyone who tries taking credit for salvation by their own efforts will hear Jesus saying to them, “depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire” and that because they were truly not trusting in him alone for their salvation. And there will be many people who Jesus is going to say this to and that because they will have trusted in their own works. He gives an example of this when he says:

              “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”

              Regarding the above, what is the problem? How come the Lord is rejecting them? After all, didn’t they prophecy in his name and cast out demons in his name and do many miracles? Then why is he rejecting them? Their own response tells us why the Lord will reject them. When they find out that they are not entering into the kingdom of God, then notice their reasons for why they should enter in: didn’t WE, didn’t WE and didn’t WE? Their claim to eternal life is by their own efforts. The only correct spiritual response and attitude would be “But Lord, Lord, didn’t you shed your blood for us.” These people by their response are demonstrating that they are trusting in their own works.

              The good works that we do, being like the good Samaritan, testifying of Christ and the word of God, should done to glorify God and by doing so we are also building up our treasures in heaven. But we should not be doing these good works as a means for obtaining salvation, for Christ already provided that for us through faith. Just like with father Abraham, we are credited with righteousness for our faith.

              • dmcal

                you said
                It is a correct analogy. By “doing something nice that I know would please the giver” is not how we obtain salvation, for that would be an attempt to earn it by our own efforts.

                I say

                No NO NO NO NO

                you are NOT getting the point.

                I NEVER NEVER NEVER said that obedience is HOW we obtain salvation.!!!!

                NEVER NEVER NEVER

                obedience occurs AFTER salvation, to show gratitude and love and faith.

                what part of that do you not get?

      • Don, CV, August, Tom, and whoever else- This statement that Don posted and agrees 100% with, tells the true nature of all this. The following is the phrase he posted and his affirmation of said phrase:

        “I like the NLT which says,”

        “The best way to not break the law is to have no law to break”.

        It literally sent chills down my spine for the overt arrogance against Yah’s Word. This is the scripture that it brought to mind:

        Matthew 7:22-23Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

        22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!

        The setting is the Judgement Seat of Messiah, which all believers will stand before. Our words and actions will be there to either condemn us or to justify us.

        Matthew 5:19-20Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

        19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

        CV posted this from above:

        “What changed in year 300 was the error of religion, self righteousness, law and they went back to the bondage. God has his plan and this is not a surprise to Him.”

        Cv- You have it backwards! From the time of Messiah’s first coming, He-The Messiah, the Apostles, Paul, and the believers through the 3rd century A.D. ALL KEPT the commandments and held fast to the testimony of Messiah. It was after that the Gentile Christian Church started taking over and the Instructions of Yah, gvien from the beginning, were eradicated and Roman paganism was introduced. That is what happened around the time period of the early 300’s AD.

        Don- I just realized you posted Matthew 7:22-23 above also and you can’t see how it relates to you and those who are like minded! Yah gave the truth in the beginning, in the garden. They were told to take in only that of the Tree of life and not the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which would be mixing His word and evil together, which is what we have today.

        Proverbs 3 is concerning the Torah of Yah. Below are the first few verses and verse 18, but the whole chapter is worth reading:

        Proverbs 3

        1My son, don’t forget my teaching,
        keep my commands in your heart;
        2
        for they will add to you many days,
        years of life and peace.

        3
        Do not let grace and truth leave you —
        bind them around your neck;
        write them on the tablet of your heart.

        18
        She is a tree of life to those who grasp her;
        whoever holds fast to her will be made happy.

        One who professes salvation through Messiah and perverts or refuses His Words of Instruction will pay a price at the Judgment Seat of Messiah!

        Salvation is ONLY through the shed blood of Messiah! Fullness of life, liberty, and reward comes through obedience to His Word.

        Shalom

        • where did don say that?

          click on comment and get a link, then post it below

        • To All, This is in regard to the post I made earlier; it is four posts up from this one. These are the scriptures referenced in the post. I would like to take all of this a little bit further and show, what I believe to be the link between the two verses.

          Matthew 7:22-23Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

          22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!

          The setting is the Judgement Seat of Messiah, which all believers will stand before. Our words and actions will be there to either condemn us or to justify us.

          Matthew 5:19-20Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

          19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

          We know that “on that day” that Yah’s people will stand before Yahshua, at the Judgment of Messiah, for all to be settled for things done and not done in our lives. This is not to be confused with the Great White throne judgment where those who are not believers will be judged.

          On that day, before Messiah, many will make their defense concerning their deeds done, to justify their desired reward! Messiah responds, “I NEVER KNEW YOU! GET AWAY FROM ME, YOU WORKERS OF LAWLESSNESS!

          What did Messiah actually mean when He said,

          “Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!”?

          Was He banishing them from the Kingdom or was He meaning something else entirely? It is hard to know the exact specifics of what it is actually meant here. But with that said….

          Matthew 7:22-23 and Matthew 5:19-20, I believe go hand in hand, with Matthew 5:19-20 being the cause, if you will, and Matthew7:22-23 being the effect (consequence)!

          If that is true, what does it mean when the workers of lawlessness are told get away from me? I believe it means exactly what it says!
          The “many” who commit this offense, will be “least” in the Kingdom, and they will not be allowed into the presence of Messiah, from whom the Kingdom will receive its light.

          And why??? Because they chose to walk in darkness (apart from His Commandments-lawlessnes) rather than the light (walking in His commandments)!

          Aramaic Bible in Plain English
          Proverbs 6:23

          For the commandment is a lamp and the law is a light, and reproof is the way of life and instruction,

          Revelation 22:5Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

          5 Night will no longer exist, so they will need neither the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because Adonai, God, will shine upon them. And they will reign as kings forever and ever.

          Could that be what is considered by Messiah to be least in the Kingdom, understanding that this is not about perfection or walking in fear of breaking a command. We are covered by Messiah! Remember when He said, “If you love me, keep my commandments!” It is those who choose to walk in His ways that are covered! It is those who choose to ignore, thereby denying His laws, who are those under the law and will be judged accordingly. If we choose to deny His light here, in this life, will He choose to deny us His light in the Kingdom???

          Go back and read the two verses, given in Matthew, again, after reading the rest of this and see if these verses make more sense. Let it sink in!!!

          Shalom

        • Al,
          There is a definite me vs. them in your comments. You lump all who disagree with you into one group, while you are above the others in your understanding. This is what I oppose in you. What I call a religious spirit.
          What I believe regarding the law differs very much from some of the others here. For me, Jesus is the Law fulfilled. When we as believers receive him, where it is not I who live but Christ lives in me, we have the law written on our hearts. We rest in the work of Jesus, not in our own works.
          As I said before, I am a former messianic. This elevation of self above others is one of the reasons I no longer am one. Invariably, this is where messianic teaching leads to…condemning others, while not taking the log out of your own eye.
          Beacon is a full preterist, I consider myself a partial preterist, Don is a pre-trib fundamentalist, you are a messianic, Dan is post trib SDA. Each thinks they are right, each think they have got it all figured out, but none of these things matter, all that matters is our relationship with Jesus Christ. Do We Know him intimately? Is he our shepherd, and do we hear his voice? Is He God with us, or is he dead to you right now?
          The funny thing is that throughout the course of my journey, I have held all the views at one time or another regarding end times and they each have been a blessing in those times. and they each have fallen short of the Truth. That I believe is how God planned it so that we would not get bogged down in our pride, and that we would never stop learning and growing in Christ Jesus. I ask you to take this heart of humility, and listen to what others are saying here as well.
          As I said, for me Jesus is the Law fulfilled. If he is in us, we also fulfill the law, provided we rest from our works, and trust in him. Our works are the idols we worship. Churchianity is a form of idol worship. A human construct fashioned of wood, and theology, which is far from the body of Christ. It is when we step away from this idol that we have relationship with Jesus. Man made religion is idolatry, just as the temple worship of old became a form of idolatry. Forced external behavior is not who we are inside. When prodded most people in the churches get angry and defensive. We see this here all the time. Hatred is still in the heart. When Jesus comes in, he transforms the heart. Instead of talking about the old laws written on stone, you need to speak in terms of heart transformation. Pride, jealousy, hatred, idolatry etc. None of these can exist in the heart of the person committed to Jesus, where he dwells within them. This is the difference you need to understand, when we keep Jesus in our hearts, we keep the law, and the feasts of the Law, which are a shadow of the real thing. We learn to Love Jesus for the gift he gave us, and thereby fulfill the first great commandment, We rest in his work on the cross, thereby fulfilling the Sabbath rest from labor as everyday with him is a Sabbath rest. We learn to love one another through the agape love which he exemplified on the cross, thereby fulfilling the second great commandment, and we do so not because we are forced through a law, but because we desire, and will to do that which is righteous.
          Do you understand this? Forced obedience is not righteous action, and neither are trained manners. The clothing of the bride are the righteous deed of the saints. The deeds of obedience that come from the heart, and not from forced compliance. The deeds that come in the heat of battle, when hatred is set aside, and we love even our enemy. The Law speaks nothing of these actions, as it is an external code, which granted has its place in civil society, but not in overcoming pride and malice and envy, and adultery that is in the heart.

          • Agust- Follow what you choose to follow and leave behind that which you will leave behind! Your words mean nothing to me. In all that you said, you quoted no scripture or historical facts, only an ongoing treatise of how you understand things to be and a condemnation of any who would dare choose to walk in His Salvation and His commandments! Do you think your rambling is anything different than what has been on here before? There are others who who could put you to shame on that. The mixing of Yah’s truth with man’s wisdom and understanding is a concoction that is extremely deadly, not unlike what you posted above-mixing and mingling! Which is probably why you didn’t reference directly any scripture or any historical facts. But I must say, very convincing and passionate on your part. I guess scripture is all in the past in our new age of clarity and understanding! That truth and understanding is a relatively new thing that just came about at the end, being that those who came before didn’t realize or understand the truth like those who are here now!? You can see things, however you choose. Messiah gave us that right. One last thing; I have asked others this, with I think only one answering; exactly when were the commandments annulled? Why didn’t the Apostles and the first 3 centuries of believers know? WHEN is the question.

            If we are to throw all of scripture out except for a few letters at the end of scripture, at the end of time, wouldn’t it seem that Messiah would not have neglected saying something about that, or at least his Apostles? Just wondering. Maybe He loved those at the end more than those in the beginning!?!?

            Shalom

            • Al,
              How very deflective of you!
              Sorry my writing is not worthy of your high standards, which is OK with me, because it only proves the point I made in them, that being that you consider yourself superior to others here, and thus a different spirit resides in you. Here is some scripture for you to read. from Jesus himself, confronting Pharisees such as you.

              48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

              I do not want to push you to the point of committing the unpardonable sin, which is where this is headed, actually, this will be your next comment, so please consider before you make it.
              I Know Him, Jesus is alive in me. I hear his voice, and speak as he gives me utterance to speak. You deny this, and think that There is a demon in me. JESUS is the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE. I am nothing without Him.

              In this time of Teshuvah, I suggest you return to him at the cross. Turn away from your idolatry of self worship. To even suggest that someone who proclaims having a relationship with Jesus is new age teaching is almost laughable if it was not so grave. You want to know who else believes this….The Pope. That is, who “your father is”, and who you unknowingly are allying yourself with.

              • A-Wow!!! You are something! I will give you that. This will be my last response to you now and in the future! I honestly do not have time for all of your melodramatic overtures! But then, if I remember correctly, you left the same way the last time you were here…your pre disposition with drama is a little much!

              • you two just do not ‘get’ each other

                time to quit

      • Don, Let’s take a look at the verses you posted:

        1 Timothy 4:3-5
        “They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For EVERYTHING God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Tim.4:3-5)

        What does this verse REALLY say about what we are to eat.
        Everything Yah created is good and right in it’s purpose for being created, because it is sanctified (set apart) by Yah’s Word and prayer. Yah created certain animals for food and they were set apart for that reason. Other animals he set apart by His Word to be scavengers to clean up what was left rotting or decaying, or things not suited for man to eat. Those animals we are not to eat, by His Word. Praying over food that has been declared unclean by the Word, is an exercise in futility! That will never sanctify the meat.

        Col. 2:16-17
        “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.” (Col. 2:16-17)

        “Let no man/pagan therefore judge you about food and drink, or in respect of festivals, new moons and Sabbaths, which are but shadows of the things then future; except the body of Mashiyach.

        We as brothers and sisters, in Messiah, are accountable to each other, as being in the body of Messiah. But we do not receive the words or judgment from pagans or other outsiders not of the body of Messiah.

        One last statement you made:

        “You’d think that if the keeping of the Sabbath day on Saturday or any day was a requirement for salvation”

        Don or anyone else, go back and see anywhere, that anyone said keeping the Sabbath or any commandment was necessary for salvation. Honestly, I don’t think you understand the difference between Salvation brought by Messiah the Lamb and Sanctification through Messiah the Word, our Instructions for life!

        Keep writing! It gives a forum to get these things out in the open!

        Shalom

        • Al said:
          “What does this verse REALLY say about what we are to eat.
          Everything Yah created is good and right in it’s purpose for being created, because it is sanctified (set apart) by Yah’s Word and prayer. Yah created certain animals for food and they were set apart for that reason. Other animals he set apart by His Word to be scavengers to clean up what was left rotting or decaying, or things not suited for man to eat. Those animals we are not to eat, by His Word. Praying over food that has been declared unclean by the Word, is an exercise in futility! That will never sanctify the meat.

          This would put us right back under the food law, which we are not under. There is nothing that is no longer unclean. My faith allows me to eat whatever I want. I am not under the law to abstain from any food. I like pork and this is acceptable to God if received by prayer and thanksgiving. All food is good and nothing is to be rejected (including anything that was listed as unclean according to the law of Moses). This is a good example of those who are still placing themselves under the law Denise. So Al, do you keep a list of foods that can and can’t be eaten according to the law? If you do, then you better be keeping the rest of the entire law, because you are obligated to keep the whole law and not just parts of it. And without even going there, you have already failed at it. Our focus should be on Christ as the author and finisher of our faith and not on the keeping of the law of Moses. As I said before, the council in Jerusalem gave us the answer regarding circumcision and the keeping of the law of Moses, the law of Moses meaning the entire law, everything contained in it.

          Here’s the claim:

          “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

          Here’s the answer:

          “After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

          God purified their hearts by faith and not by observing the law or by pledging to keep the law of Moses. The Holy Spirit did not fall upon Cornelius and his household because they promised to keep the law, but because they believed the gospel that Peter was preaching and God purified their hearts by their faith.

          It is a new covenant, which means that it is not the old covenant. What part of “Jesus accomplished the purpose for which the law given” don’t you understand. There are always people who after reading everything that is written stating that we are no longer under the law and they still find ways of circumventing and distorting the word of God to do exactly the opposite of what God’s word is saying. I thank God that I am free in Christ and that I am not bound by the law to be judged according to what I eat or drink or what day the Sabbath is kept on or anything else that was a requirement of the law.

          • DON-Honestly you do not get it! Yah never classified unclean animals as food!!! Read that again if you need to! Unclean animals were never classified as food! Only those animals designated as clean were considered food, unclean animals weren’t! You have to work within the parameters of what Yah’s Word has layed out. When you call food what Yah has not called food, and you choose to eat thereof, you are on your own! Yah did this to protect us, not to punish us! It is for our health and well being! But you know better than our Abba (Father), so belly up to the table-Bon appetite my brother!

            • i agree

            • Al,

              I doesn’t matter what you say regarding this issue or how you try to slice it Al! We are not in any way under the law of Moses, period! We are saved by grace (unmerited favor), through faith in Christ and you can’t take credit for it, it is a gift from God. Jesus alone purchased men for God with his own blood. He met the righteous requirements of the whole law of Moses, fulfilling what we could not do and brought it to fruition. Either you’re trusting in Christ as the author and finisher of your faith, or you’re trusting in your own efforts. If you have other requirements for salvation along side the shed blood of Christ, you are not trusting in him for salvation.

              As I posted earlier, the claims that were made by that group of Pharisees regarding circumcision and obeying the law of Moses and the Holy Spirits response through Peter at the counsel in Jerusalem, ends the argument regarding law vs. grace. Otherwise, the letter that was written by the counsel would have been a whole lot bigger containing all the things in the law that we would be required to do. To be clear, my only hope of salvation and eternal life is in Christ who accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. Now that Christ has come the law is no longer our guardian. The Holy Spirit through Paul settled this issue using every kind of example. Here is one of those examples:

              ==================================

              “Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

              These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written:

              “Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”

              Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman. (Gal.4:21-31)

              =======================================

              If you are trusting in the works of the law, you belong to the slave woman covenant. Those who are having faith in Christ without works belong to the free woman. To keep it short, I will continue this on the next post.

              • (Continued)

                Here is another example:

                =======================================

                “Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

                So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

                =========================================

                As the Scripture above states, those who are true believers in Christ died to the law of Moses, with its ordinances and regulations. The law of Moses has been dead to us ever since Christ met all of the law’s requirements, we are no longer in bondage to it. It no longer has power over us. Jesus sacrifice was sufficient and there are no efforts on our part that we need to perform. Our part is having faith in him. If you are not doing that, then you do not understand the salvation message.

                Answer me this, when God credited father Abraham with righteousness, was it because he kept the law or because he was circumcised or because he went out and performed works? No! It was pure faith. The following is how it was stated:

                ====================================

                “Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

                Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

                =====================================

                So, it was the pure act of Abraham believing what God said and that by faith alone without any works on Abraham’s part. Those stars that God was showing Abraham represent every person throughout every generation who has the same faith as Abraham did and that without works. It is God who justifies the wicked! Our faith must be solely in Christ as the one who accomplished salvation for us. Anyone who is not trusting solely in Christ is still in their sins.

                Another example of salvation by faith without works would be when God sent Peter to Cornelius’ house hold. Who, while Peter was preaching the gospel to them, while he was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they spoke in languages and prophesied and that without any pledge or promise to be circumcised, nor were they baptized, nor did they perform any good works, nor by promise of keeping the Sabbath or abstaining from foods, etc. But what does the Scripture say?

                ” God purified their hearts by faith”

                Here is salvation straight from Christ:

                “Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

                Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

                I belong to the covenant of the free woman, therefore, do not bother me with your teachings of belonging to the covenant of the slave woman. Someone said (and I agree), discernment is not just knowing right from wrong, but knowing right from almost right. Satan is working overtime in these last days and it shows with all of the false teachings that appear to be so close to the truth. I say the same that Paul said:

                “May I never boast in anything except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ”

                • Don,

                  2 Corinthians 5:10

                  Aramaic Bible in Plain English

                  For we are all going to stand before the judgment seat of The Messiah, that each man will be paid in his body anything that was done by him, whether of good or of evil.

                  Since ONLY believers are spoken of here, the issue is one of reward, not salvation. Notice the wording;

                  “that each man will be paid in his BODY anything that was DONE by him, whether of good or of evil.”

                  It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out what is being said here. As sensual and self serving as it may sound to you, REWARD in the Kingdom is by works. We get to the Kingdom only by the shed blood of Messiah!!!! Period, end of story as far as our ENTRANCE into the Kingdom! Once we are there our place in the Kingdom is decided by works.

                  Let’s just take Matthew 5:19;

                  19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

                  The verse above is not about being saved by how perfectly we follow a commandment. It is about how we approach them with a true and honest heart to walk in His ways. Notice what Messiah said, “whoever DISOBEYS…..and TEACHES others to do so will be called the LEAST…..! Messiah is showing the intent of the believer here. We all fall short of the glory of our Elohim and fail at times, breaking His Word. That is not what He is talking about here. What Yahshua is referencing is the one who intentionally walks in opposition to His commands (Disobeys) and tells others (Teaches) it is good and right to do so.

                  There are two different groups of people here, both believers;

                  One who defiantly walks in disobedience to the commandments and tries to convince others to do the same! LAWLESSNESS-Disobedience

                  One who walks in His commandments through obedience to His Word and tries to convince other to do the same! LAWFUL- Obedient

                  Both groups end up in the Kingdom! But where our place, according to reward, in the Kingdom is determined, is by works.

                  The bottom line is, you are not compromising your salvation by keeping the commandments!!!! Salvation and Works are both of Messiah. You can make a choice to accept one and deny the other, but you will suffer loss in the Kingdom, If you so choose.

                  “If you love Me, keep my commandments!”

                  Can it be any more clear than what He has made it?

                  This just shows how 1700 years of misinformation and lies has turned everything backwards, to the extent that being LAWLESS, is to be worn as a badge of honor and righteousness.

                  Shalom

              • I think this has been said several times before, but Al does not believe he gets saved through works.

                he believes in what you said.

                but bible also says faith without works is dead….

                you can obey god without being “under the law” for salvation

                obedience comes after salvation

          • do you read and not comprehend?

            no one thinks obeying a food law is needed for salvation here….i read all the comments, and not even those I consider way off have said this’

            you are fighting a battle that is just not there.

            people have the advise to follow food laws, not for salvation, but for health reasons.

            god did not give frivolous commandments…there are reasons for them….

            some animals are contaminated with all sorts of toxins and parasites.

            why eat bad food when you can eat good food?

            if you want to be under grace and eat bad food, then feel free, get sick and blame yourself for doing it

            if a person wants to be under grace and eat the better food, as advised by god, let them do it, and leave them alone about it

          • If you believe that you are not bound by the fourth commandment, then you would be ascribing to cheap grace.

            The fourth commandment, as are each of the other nine commandments, is part and parcel of the testimony of Jesus Christ to which He says that His disciples adhere to. No gray area there.

            — The 10 commandments were never “set aside”.
            — The 10 commandments weren’t nailed to the cross.
            — The 10 commandments were written in STONE!
            — The 10 commandments are in the Ark of the Covenant
            — His Blood covers the Ark of the Covenant
            — Both are His immutable testament

            — Lawbreaking is never excusable
            — Lawbreaking always carries a penalty
            — Jesus paid the penalty
            — Lawbreaking is forgivable.
            — We are forgiven, but not excused.
            — Excused lawbreaking is CHEAP GRACE

            There is no doubt or debate regarding any of this. There is no excuse under law. The “New Covenant” is the assurance of forgiveness to which adherents of the “Old Covenant” could only hope for. The perfect sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant, which provides for salvation[forgiveness] for our sin[lawbreaking].

            Jesus took the “hit” for us by taking on the consequences of OUR lawbreaking.

            If law/sin were excusable, there would have been NO REASON for Jesus to die! If law/sin were excusable, there would be no reason for 10 commandments!

            The 10 commandments EXIST in the Ark of the Covenant for a REASON, and His Blood EXISTS on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant for a REASON!

            God’s grace was/is never cheap. Jesus proved that even He as creator was not above His own law, by accepting responsibility for those that He created. This is why His Father was well pleased with His Son’s taking responsibility.

            The only question remaining is, do we accept His grace and His law on His terms?

            What say you all?

            • i agree

            • Dan,
              We rest from our works in Jesus, thereby we fulfill the Sabbath rest. read my comment to Al above. Grace is NEVER cheap. neither is encouraging people to rest from our works encouraging them to break the law as written in stone. What matters now, Is the law written on your heart?
              Blessings.

        • he has a one track mind

      • dmcal

        explain this comment you made

        “I like the NLT which says,
        The best way to not break the law is to have no law to break.”

        if you are serious, then you are in error to think this way….

        grace is not about having no laws to obey

        • Correct Marianne,

          Only cheap grace allows for no necessary law observance.

          (see my comment which includes Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes)

          Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it. Moreover, He indicates that His disciples are those with His testimony(that keep His commandments). It couldn’t be more clear.

          His testimony was written in/on stone. I wonder if there was a reason for that?

          His testimony wasn’t done away with at the cross as many suppose.

          Dan

          • dan

            what was done away with:

            ordinances of man

            sacrifice for sins

            • Correct Marianne

            • Hi Dan,

              Just to be clear:

              You said:
              “Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to do away with it.”

              Above, Jesus is saying that he did not come to do away with the law and the prophets, that is, to overthrow them, not to push them aside as unimportant, but he came to fulfill all that was written of him and to meet the righteous requirements of the law of Moses. Now that Jesus has accomplished the purpose for which the law was given, he freed us from the burden of it by fulfilling it. It’s a done deal. We can’t fulfill it any better than Jesus did. Regarding the following scripture “I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them,” you are interpreting that as meaning that Jesus came to perpetuate the law, that is, to keep it going and that is not what the verse is saying at all.

              The Law is the issue that has to be dealt with in order to bring us into a right relationship with God. “Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified” (Galatians 2:16). This passage reveals that the Law cannot justify or make righteous any man in God’s sight, which is why God sent His Son to completely fulfill the requirements of the Law for all those who would believe in Him.

              • @Dmcal,

                If you believe that you are not bound by the commandments, then you would be ascribing to cheap grace.

                The commandments, as are the testimony of Jesus Christ to which He says that His disciples adhere to. No gray area there.

                — The 10 commandments were never “set aside”.
                — The 10 commandments weren’t nailed to the cross.
                — The 10 commandments were written in STONE!

                — The 10 commandments are in the Ark of the Covenant
                — His Blood covers the Ark of the Covenant
                — Both are His immutable testament

                — Lawbreaking is never excusable
                — Lawbreaking always carries a penalty
                — Jesus paid the penalty

                — Lawbreaking is forgivable.
                — We are forgiven/justified, but not excused.
                — Excused lawbreaking is CHEAP GRACE

                There is no doubt or debate regarding any of this. There is NO EXCUSE under law.

                The “New Covenant” is the assurance of forgiveness to which adherents of the “Old Covenant” could only hope for.

                The perfect sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled the New Covenant, which provides for salvation[forgiveness] for our sin[lawbreaking].

                Jesus took the “hit” for us by taking on the consequences of OUR lawbreaking.

                ———————————–

                If law/sin were excusable, there would have been NO REASON for Jesus to die!

                If law/sin were excusable, there would be no reason for 10 commandments!

                ———————————-

                The 10 commandments EXIST in the Ark of the Covenant for a REASON, and His Blood EXISTS on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant for a REASON! Their witness is immutable!

                God’s grace was/is never cheap. Jesus proved that even He as creator was not above His own law, by accepting responsibility for those that He created. This is why His Father was well pleased with His Son’s taking responsibility.

                Dmcal, NOBODY is excused from obeying ALL of His commandments. There is no way around this fact.

                NOBODY is excused from observing the fourth commandment. There is no way around this fact either.

                Again, we are forgiven of our sin, but NOT EXCUSED from moral and holy law observance. There is no way around this fact. Any opposing theory or rationale is “cheap grace”, and is INSANE!

                The only question remaining is, do we accept His grace and forgiveness, and obey His commandments on His terms?

                What say you?

                • Dan,

                  Dan said:
                  “If you believe that you are not bound by the commandments, then you would be ascribing to cheap grace.”

                  There is no such thing as cheap grace Dan. Grace is defined as unmerited, that is, not earnable, because it is given as a free gift by God’s favor through Jesus Christ. So grace is not cheap and that because Jesus is the one who provided that grace with his own blood. Therefore, for those who believe and simply receive the gift, It is free. We cannot do anything to earn it. We can’t work for it. Like Abraham, all God wants us to do is accept it without trying to earn it by performing works, which is the error of Israel and apparently many Gentiles, as can be seen by so much opposition regarding this subject.

                  Since Abraham is our spiritual father in faith, I will use him to prove the point. Was Abraham credited with righteousness for performing any works? Did he earn that righteousness by being circumcised, keeping the law, the Sabbaths, etc.? Or was he credited with righteousness because he settled it in his heart that God was able to do what he had promised regarding giving him a son?

                  Dan said:
                  “— The 10 commandments were written in STONE!”

                  Scripture says:
                  “You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.”

                  Dan said:

                  — Lawbreaking always carries a penalty

                  You are 100% correct Dan! And since scripture already has stated that we are not able to keep the law, when we put ourselves under it to attempt to meet its requirements, it brings wrath, which is why Paul said the following:

                  “For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law–I stopped trying to meet all its requirements–so that I might live for God.” (Gal.2:19)

                  Reflect on what Paul said above Dan. Read it slowly and let it sink in. When he tried to keep the law of Moses (all 600 or so of them) it condemned him and that because he failed at keeping it, just like anyone else. So, he says that he stopped trying to meet all of the law requirements. Do you understand what is being said here? He didn’t just stop trying to meet some of the laws requirements, but he died to the whole law and that is what we must do.

                  Dan said:

                  — Lawbreaking is forgivable.
                  — We are forgiven/justified, but not excused.
                  — Excused lawbreaking is CHEAP GRACE

                  To be clear, I have never said to anyone that to not be under the law means that we have free reign to sin. That kind of thinking is a wrong spirit. What I have been proclaiming that scripture is saying is that, the law is no longer our husband, because we died to that husband and therefore, we are no longer under the commitment of that marriage. This is what Scripture says:

                  “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” (Rom.7:6)

                  Do you understand that Paul is speaking of the Law of Moses as what once bound us? And do you understand the meaning of a new covenant, following in the new way, which is not like the old way of observing the written code?

                  Dan said:
                  “The “New Covenant” is the assurance of forgiveness to which adherents of the “Old Covenant” could only hope for. ”

                  So Dan, if we are still under the old covenant, while being under the new covenant, what has changed? I can guarantee you right now, that if you are putting yourself under the law, then you have failed at it miserably and so has anyone else who is trying to do so and this because God told so. By putting our faith in Christ as the one who met the righteous requirements of the law and paid the penalty for our sins, we are saved and that because we are putting our faith in him instead of our own efforts.

                  I refer you back to the claim that was by the Pharisee group who claimed that the Gentiles must be circumcised and be made to obey the law of Moses. And they being Pharisees, their meaning of the law of Moses would be the entire law given to Israel. The Holy Spirit through Peter gave us the answer to this:

                  =====================================
                  “Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

                  The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

                  =======================================

                  If you’ll notice above, the answer to whether or not the Gentile believers or any believer, should be circumcised and made to obey the law of Moses was NO!. I don’t understand why you guys don’t get this? The claim and the answer to this issue is made very clear and that because it entails the question of the need to be circumcised and whether or not it is required to obey the law of Moses. The only way that anyone can get around this is to distort and circumvent the word of God, which is what many do and that to their own destruction.

                  Dan said:
                  “Dmcal, NOBODY is excused from obeying ALL of His commandments. There is no way around this fact.”

                  Then we’re all dead Dan, because no one has been able to keep it. When we attempt to put ourselves under the law it only brings wrath when we fail at it. And being under the law, if you break just one part of it, then you’ve broken the whole thing! I am dead to the law. The law is no longer my husband. I follow Christ and am led by the Spirit, following in the new way and not in the old way of the written code. When I sin, if I confess my sins he is faithful and just to forgive me my sins and to cleanse me of all unrighteousness and that because I’m trusting in him for it, not by my own efforts by trying to the keep ordinances and regulations of the law. Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid! If you follow Christ and are led by the Spirit, you will not seek to fulfill the acts of the sinful nature. But when I sin (and I do) and I confess my sin, he is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and to cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Yet, I am not under the law, but under grace.

                  Dan, if you continue to hold on to the works of the law for salvation, you will not inherit the kingdom of God and that because you are not putting your trust in Christ, but are trying to obtain it by performing these things that you have been contending for.

                  Our focus should be completely on Christ as the one who accomplished everything on our behalf. That is the new covenant. That is salvation.

                • To all,

                  Listen to what Paul said regarding the law of Moses and everything related to it:

                  ***********************************************************

                  “Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

                  If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

                  But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. (Phil.3:1-9)

                  ***********************************************************

                  Everything that was bound up in the law of Moses, circumcision, being a Pharisee, of the tribe of Israel, the keeping of ordinances and regulations, the written code, all that God gave to Israel in the law of Moses, Paul considered them as loss and as garbage, not having a righteousness of his own that comes from the law, that he might gain Christ. Israel is still in bondage to this very day, as well as any Gentiles who are trying to keep any part of the law. Listen to what scripture says regarding this:

                  *******************************************************
                  What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. (Rom.9:30-32)

                  *****************************************************

                  • i do not see paul meaning that….just because he says all is garbage does not mean he is referring to
                    “the keeping of ordinances and regulations, the written code, all that God gave to Israel in the law of Moses,”

                    if he actually MENTIONEd the law the code then that would be different

            • Marianne,

              You said:
              “what was done away with:

              ordinances of man
              sacrifice for sins

              You keep saying that you are not trusting in the law for salvation, but by what you wrote above means that everything else in the law of Moses that does not fall under the ordinances of man and sacrifice for sins we are still obligated to keep. This is exactly why I keep posting the truth regarding this, because you say one thing, but your post reveals the opposite. All of the law of Moses was brought to an end and that because Jesus met the righteous requirements of the law perfectly and thereby satisfying God’s requirement for its fulfillment. Jesus did not come to perpetuate, that is, to keep the law going, but to fulfill it, bringing it to its end.

              • no

                it is possible to be saved and still obey god.

                however, the sacrifice for sins was gone, due to christ, and the ordinances of MAN, not god, were nailed to the cross.

                I do not see why you cannot see this

                the ordinances of god are still in effect.

  90. Romans 3:31

    Do we then make void the Torah through personal faith? By no means: actually we establish the Torah.

    Faith establishes Torah! The two support each other and are not antthetical to each other, according to Rav Shaul! Faith affirms (establishes) Torah!! What is your point? Why don’t you believe that????

    You are trying to overturn foundational truths with scriptures you don’t understand! Get more specific with Hebrews and the rest of Romans if you really want to go down this road. Would be happy to have the conversation!

    “Religious Spirit”!?!? I seem to remember hearing that before, just trying to remember where and who.

    Shalom

  91. I would like to jump in here with my two cents worth. I am not a Bible scholar. I’ve walked with Jesus all of my life but admit it wasn’t until my recent past that I began to study the Bible. And I have been listening here, with great intensity, to what everyone has had to say.

    No where do I hear anyone stating that one must follow the law as was laid down in the OT, in order to have salvation. Most people posting on this site, for the most part, believe that it is through our faith alone and not by our works that we are saved. Some also believe that while observing the law can not save us, it can be beneficial, in addition to our faith, to also walk the path of obedience. Not because we must, but because we choose to do so out of our love for God.

    Obedience to the law is born out of faith. Just because our lives have come under the umbrella of Grace it does not mean that the law no longer applies. We are not saved by observing laws, but there are those who feel that believers will make a sincere effort to follow them. God did what the law alone could not do. He sent His only Son to die in our places.

    Matthew 22:37, Mark 12:30-31, and Luke 10:27, espouse in so many words what was stated in Deuteronomy 6:5, words similar to:
    Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And, Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”

    You can not break any of the 10 Commandments without breaking one or the other of these two. If you go against any of the 10 Commandments you are either not loving God, or you are not loving your neighbor.

    But, people here aren’t saying that everyone MUST follow the 10 Commandments, they are saying (as I understand them) that it is through their faith that they CHOOSE to do so.

    Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    No where in the above does Jesus mention the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments. Jesus stated that He came to fulfill the law. But He also states that, ” … until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”

    Is everything accomplished?

    Denise

    • I agree with you

      some here think that if we obey God as a result of our faith and salvation, that we have put ourselves under the curse of the law.

      that we are working FOR our salvation, not responding in gratitude for it

    • @Denise,

      You are correct.

      You said, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. And, Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these.”
      You can not break any of the 10 Commandments without breaking one or the other of these two. If you go against any of the 10 Commandments you are either not loving God, or you are not loving your neighbor.

      What you have offered in those words is tremendously profound! This concept is central in what the idol/icon of the Beast, and the mark of the Beast will involve. It will be Satan’s crowning achievement. A trifecta of evil if you will.

      Dan

    • Denise- Exactly! One has to trip over a lot of scripture to not see that.

      Shalom

    • Denise,
      Welcome to the conversation.
      The Law must be written on our hearts, and not just externally obeyed. The Sabbath one is the one that everyone has a problem with. is it the seventh day or the first day. They are looking at the external, not the internal.
      I say it is every day. As Jesus, the Law fulfilled, comes into us, we rest from OUR works. We rest in Him. His work on the cross. This is when real transformation begins to take place, when we get out of the way, and let him sanctify the heart.
      Suppressed Anger is unhealthy is it not? Someday it will explode….
      Suppressed sexuality is unhealthy is it not? someday it will explode….
      Was this not the whole point of the sermon on the mount? That we have to obey the law internally, or else murder and adultery are still within us.
      Read John 8. Jesus exposed the murderous heart of the Pharisees, to show them who their real father was.
      Blessings.

  92. Al said =“Just as a side note, the House of Israel for approx 300 years kept the Commandments and had the testimony of Messiah Yahshua, after His resurrection! That is how the Christian Church evolved into iniquity=lawlessness!”

    I beg to disagree with you Bro. Al.

    Please listen up now. In the Lutheran age Revival it was coming out of the Catholic dark ages that only taught WORKS. But Luther a Priest started up a revival and He said you got salvation by FAITH, Then in the Wesleyan age John Wesley Said you had to be Sanctified along with Faith. Amen that was truth. Now in the out pouring of the Holy Ghost in the Pentecostal age of revival of 1906 “”Millions”” came to Christ in these 3 revivals. They said that completed it all. But is does not. Their was also a Tutoring time of the Teacher rain. To grow up into the stature of Jesus Christ Himself.

    People out of every Church SYSTEM from the dark ages of Luther till now. Hundreds and hundreds of different denominations were right their and millions still could not rid them selves from their own FALSE doctrines of demons. They brought them in with them even after they received the Holy Spirit. And this is why their had to be a TEACHER RAIN to filter out all the un-truths of the denominations of that day as well as THIS DAY which is even worse. It is as dark as when Jesus walked the earth.

    Now the Jew did the same thing in the “Gentile and Jewish revival”. The Jew did get Salvation, Sanctified, and filled with the Holy Spirit. Yet they keep some of their CUSTOMS and Doctrines that Paul did address to them and to him self. Their is a ‘Grace period’ that has to grow up and be “tutored” in every revival. They must come to the whole Truth.

    When Judgment came to the hardened Jews. They were mostly all killed in Jerusalem. And they ended up without a Temple to even worship in and were slaughtered and their dead bodies laying all over Isarel. That ended the LAW PERIOD for GOOD.

    The N.T fulfilled the LAW of the school master. Which was the Shadow only. Jesus came and stepped into that Shadow and out of that stepped Christ Resurrection of the New Creations. The first fruit of the Jew and Gentile Church of God. The N.T Christ came plainly visible to the Jew and they still could not except Him. That is BLIND.

    Rev, 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the AMEN, the FAITHFUL and TRUE WITNESS, the BEGINNING of the CREATION OF GOD.

    Moses was a SINNER Every one was a SINNER even Adam and all the Prophets and all of Israel were sinners under the law as well. That was just a shadow. The Law of morals was a shadow as well = The Jew could not fulfill the Law. That is what Christ is all about. Christ fulfilled it all. The BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD IS THE N.T. CHILDREN.
    0. We do not have to have a substitute to KNOW GOD cause we Know HIM PERSONALLY who HE IS AND WAS and HE lives IN ME. He is the WORD He wrote the 10 commandments. Knowing they could not keep it. If you all could understand GODHEAD
    1, If Christ is really IN YOU. HE IS FOR US not against us. We have had a faith BLOOD transfusion into us by Faith in CHRIST LAW – the Royal Law.
    2. The N.T is the AMEN of it all. From Genesis To Revelations – The Tree of life was in the first Eph. Church age.
    3, If I got a need or I sinned. I go to the Tree of Life which is Jesus Christ. Praise God
    4. The tree of knowledge of good and evil ain’t their NO MORE.
    5. Condemnation is NO MORE cause we have NO SIN in the Eyes of our Husband. We have therefore have NO condemnation to them that are in Christ. condem-nation – We are a HOLY NATION as HE IS.

    Now back to tradition and customs of the Jews. Before Christ. And after Christ.
    It was a Big, Big deal to get Circumcised was it not. Yet Paul had to go to Peter and James and others about not having to be Circumcised of the Gentiles.
    1, Praise God cause if Paul lost that debate. We gentiles today would all have to be circumcised. Thank God when I got saved I did not have to go back behind a curtain and get circumcised on some certain day. WOW thank you Jesus.

    We have same thing today with Water Baptism- Oh you got to do it in Father, Son and Holy Ghost But it also said in the NAME of the Father , Son and Holy Ghost. Their is only ONE way of Baptism in the Christian Church and that is in the Name of Jesus Christ.

    I do not personally say a person that was baptized in Father, Son and Holy Ghost is lost. They just do what their PEERS tell them to do. Same as Jews were told in first 3 centuries you are talking about Al.

    “””””Most of the Jews where just like today – could not leave out all of their denominational teachings. They brought Jewish doctrines into the Other side – called Christianity. The Greeks=Gentiles were not compelled to get Circumcised. I hope some on here can say AMEN bro. Tom that is sure the truth. “””””””

    After the Universal church ran things for a 1000 years. The Universal Catholic church was in depths of great, great darkness of many, many, error’s from witchcraft to false doctrines that was never in the N.T church. But look what we got to day. 10 thousand different doctrines of devils. We have to deal with it every day on this forum and everywhere else in the USA and World. Even to preach the true Message of Jesus Christ being Revealed as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

    If Jesus had not come in His day. Look what Israel had become to the WHOLE WORLD = a WORTHLESS RELIGION and that is all. Can anybody say that is the Truth. What about TODAY. We got Christ mixed with everything in the whole world. But God said we are VIRGINS. AMEN

    The Law was good for its day. Without it the wild men of Cain and Adam and all would NOT know what sin was. Adam actually knew He was sinning because He was a SON OF GOD TO BEGIN with. He did it out of LOVE for HIS BRIDE . Yet He still sinned. But it was a sin of Love for his Wife. Moses could not do that. Jesus was the 2nd. Adam. He did it out of love for us all. Not to serve tables, wash cups, and bow down to animals.

    Paul said it was CHRIST in Moses. This means WE ALL are “”Personified”” in Jesus Christ NOT MOSES anymore. The Bride today got the same thing MOSES had Christ in HIM>
    Moses had to show them what sin was. So they would not been guilty of it. That is what Christ said.
    Christ had to show them the Resurrection that cured all their sin and curse that Adam and Eve caused.

    The WHOLE BODY of JESUS CHRIST is Personified in Moses and Elijah. It was Christ that died. I know you will really stumble over this one. Rev. 11. It was Jesus in grave for 3 days then Rose. But Christ always had His Church around Him even in Heaven. He knew who was and was not. That is who God was talking to. HIS ANGELS of the Church.

    Al your MIND has got to be Translated Rom 12:1-2 into the Mind of Christ instead of Moses. The Law was just the School Teacher and that was Apostle Paul who said that. So in other words It was not finished unto you Graduated into Jesus Christ Mind, Body, and Soul. Full of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. And it being Vindicated in you. BY YOUR CHARACTER AND “WORKS” OF GRACE AND LOVE AND FORGIVENESS.

    Bottom line: do not bring your old traditions and customs that make the Word of God of none effect. That is the problem with today. Satan is masked in 1,000 different faces yet in Christ is only ONE WAY

    Palisade

  93. To all – I made a mistake on the 3 days of Christ in Rev. 11 – I meant to say 3-1/2 days. Sorry about that.
    Tom

  94. Tom, I will clarify one thing that is said above and that is it:

    “Just as a side note, the House of Israel for approx 300 years kept the Commandments and had the testimony of Messiah Yahshua, after His resurrection! That is how the Christian Church evolved into iniquity=lawlessness!”

    With all the writing and reading over the weekend I wrote this and didn’t make it clear what was being said.

    The House of Israel for approx 300 years kept the Commandments and had the testimony of Messiah Yahshua, after His resurrection! In the early 300’s AD the Gentiles took over the leadership of the Christian Church, replacing much of their doctrines and ways with Roman paganism! That is how the Christian Church evolved into iniquity=lawlessness!”

    http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/did_constantine_change_sabbath.html

    You don’t have to like it Tom, but you do have to deal with it!

    Shalom

    • You are correct.

      Jesus’s testimony was/are the Ten Commandments, and observance of them is part and parcel of discipleship. This fact must be dealt with

      Many church’s apostasy might best be described within Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book entitled, “The Cost of Discipleship”. In it he describes “cheap grace”.

      Excerpts:

      “Cheap grace means grace sold on the market like cheapjacks’ wares. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church’s inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap?…”

      “Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance,. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate.”(this likely includes accepting cheap grace without following Christ’s testimony)

      “God’s grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ(includung His testimony/commandments). It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son: “ye were bought at a price,” and what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the Incarnation of God.”

      If the 4th commandment states that the seventh day is holy, and that we should worship Him on that day, and do no work, then that’s what it means!!! To deny that Saturday worship is mandatory, is to claim cheap grace, by setting aside Christ’s testimony.

      Dietrich Bonhoeffer, for those who don’t know, was killed by the Nazi’s for his anti Nazi protests

      • CV, Tom, Don, August, and all the rest- A simple question:

        Is Yah an Elohim of creation or evolution?

        Give me your thoughts. It’s an easy question!

        • I’m not sure that I understand your question

          — Was God created?
          — Did God evolve?
          — Did God create evolution?

          • Shalom Dan-The truth came at the beginning, not at the end! Yah gave to Israel, in the beginning, everything they needed to know and do to successfully get to the end! Those truths given to Israel, in the beginning is what Yah’s people need to know and adhere to! Yah layed out His plan and timing for their salvation through the Feasts and commandments in the Torah! Everything in the Torah, to date, has come to pass as written according to His appointed times. Messiah was with Israel at Sinai; Messiah was with Israel at Pesach, in Yerushalayim at the appointed time! Ruach HaKodesh came at the appointed time on Shavuot, as written! And so it will be at the end according to His moedim-appointed time! That is why we follow the commandments and the feasts! All of this came out of the beginning, and is what Israel followed; Messiah fulfilled; the 12 Apostles followed; Paul followed; and the first 3 centuries of believers followed! Messiah Yahshua is coming back in the near future at the appointed time (Moedim) on the Fall feast days, as written in Torah. We are to follow the same writings the ancient Hebrews followed to get to the end-His moedim and commandments!

            The Christian Church follows a different path and has been evolving over the past 1700 years. They have outgrown that which was given in the beginning and is in an evolutionary freefall! That is the outcome when one tries to discern the end from the end and throws away that given by Yah in the beginning! How sad!!!

            Shalom

            • Very interesting.

            • Al,
              Not sure where you are heading here, but Jesus is the tree of life…AKA communion and relationship with Yah. We must choose to eat of that tree, and not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…AKA religion. Through Christ we become a “new creation”. The end from the beginning.

      • Dan,

        You said:
        “If the 4th commandment states that the seventh day is holy, and that we should worship Him on that day, and do no work, then that’s what it means!!! To deny that Saturday worship is mandatory, is to claim cheap grace, by setting aside Christ’s testimony.”

        Scripture says:
        “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.”

        You are quoting from the law of Moses that was given to Israel. As I said earlier, Jesus kept the law of Moses with all of its ordinances and regulations perfectly and that on our behalf. For a believer in Christ, what day the Sabbath is observed on is not going to be an issue. Pick a day!

        “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” (Rom.7:6)

        What once bound us was the law of Moses and as the scripture above states, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit. We are not under the law, we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit, because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression of it.

        Satan has really done a number in regards to this issue and that because Scripture is clear that whoever trusts in the law as been alienated from Christ. The Jews were required to keep the law, which could not save them, but they were required to keep it because it was God’s requirement. But, they sought after righteousness as though it were by the works of the law and that without being combined with faith. We are under a different covenant where we are saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law and that because Christ already fulfilled it on our behalf. We are saved by trusting solely upon Christ without our own efforts. And by our own efforts I mean, I have to keep the Sabbath on Saturday, I have to abstain from certain foods, I have to keep holy days, I have to keep the ten commandments, etc. Jesus fulfilled all of that. Now we put our trust in Christ completely for our salvation and not by our own efforts. As an example, the requirement of keeping the Sabbath on Saturday as mandatory for salvation would be by ones own effort.

        We are supposed to be trusting in Christ as the One who fulfilled all things on our behalf, therefore, to bring in our own requirements along side what he did is not trusting in him.

        • What is required for salvation is the acceptance of the free gift. We are justified/forgiven our lawbreaking by blood/grace, just as the thief on the cross was forgiven/justified. But the thief paid the consequences for his lawbreaking, and yet was saved.

          You are co-mingling ordinances with laws.

          The ten commandments are not part of Mosaic law/ordinances. The ten commandments were imparted to Moses while face to face with Jesus, IN STONE! They are immutable. Proof of this, is that they alone are within the Ark of the Covenant.

          Deuteronomy 34:10
          Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

          King James Bible
          The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

          Again, the disciples of Christ are those who keep His commandments. This could not be more clear Dmcal! Ten commandment observance is mandated! That’s why they’re called commandments! They were never done away with.

          Nowhere is there an implication that by Jesus fulfilling the law, that it somehow excused it’s observance. That was just “made up”. The law that Jesus fulfilled was that law requiring His death to suffer the consequence for our transgression of the law.

          If a person desires to be His disciple, then they must follow His commanments. You decide.

  95. Acts: 13:39 ” and by him every one that believeth is JUSTIFIED from ALL THINGS, from which ye could NOT be justified by the law of Moses.”

    No grace is CHEAP because any GRACE from GOD is PAID by the Blood of Jesus.

    • cheap means it was paid for at a high price, but received with contempt and a rebellious attitude, where one continues to sin and thinks it is ok, since they are forgiven

      • Correct Marianne

      • There is no such thing as cheap grace. There is such a thing as grace as a license to sin. Lets use that term instead of cheap grace. Grace does not give us a license to sin, But it does forgive us of our sins provided we repent and turn from them. Sin is not just external disobedience, but internal disobedience…Hatred, lust, jealousy, contentiousness, strife etc. The heart needs to be the focus of obedience.

        Al,
        The apostles knew that the Old system was inadequate to transform the heart. Peter even stood up and spoke about this in the Jerusalem council in Acts. Yes they were of Jewish decent, but they knew the gentiles had an advantage in that they would not stumble over the stumbling STONE of religion. Paul fulfilled the Nazerite vow as well, and kept the feasts of their tradition, just as some Christians celebrate Christmas though the word of God does not instruct them to.

  96. You stiffed neck people let me see if you have “eyes” and “ears” and then I will wash my feet from you.

    Jesus (YHVH) came in the flesh, the WORD of God, preached for 3+ years. His ministry started AFTER he was baptize INTO REPENTANCE. What did Jesus have to repent? He was the perfect Jew and practiced JUDAISM perfectly. The repentance was FROM JUDAISM and our Father was very well pleased.

    Now. think about this. YHVH (Jesus) shed HIS blood for us (all that believe in Him). HIS blood is the most precious, valuable, most rarest thing in the UNIVERSE. Nothing is more pure or valuable than GOD’s own blood. It was HIS gift (do you all know what a GIFT is?), His GRACE. I The ONLY way to receive it is by BELIEVING (faith) and the only way to believe is to be given or chosen by Him. Jesus came to free us FROM all these things and once you receive it the Holy Spirit lives IN you and His laws and commandments will be written on your hearts (will) and minds. He will be your rest and you become the Body of Christ.

    If you reject the GIFT then you go back to bondage (the Law ) the law of sin and death. Why? because you could NEVER fulfill the Law properly NEVER by your works. So when people say they have to keep the commandments you reject the GIFT. Moses did not deliver the Israelites to the promise land nor could the law. It has always been our faith in God and His grace. It is faith and grace we are saved.

    Everyone that say” he keeps His commandments” or ” we should out of devotion, respect, “not responding in gratitude for it” etc … ALWAYS looks to themselves (self righteousness!) because it is something he is doing for God. Not what YHVH has done for YOU. You reject the gift and want to fall back on your own works, It is always self doing.

    Accept the gift from God and repent of your ways. Be set free and praise Jesus for his sacrifice.

    Side NOTE:

    Someone mentioned 37 years until the temple was destroyed (70 AD) after Jesus’ resurrection. Well here is something that came to me. Jesus was baptized into repentance just before he started his ministry. So add 3 years and you get 40 years. 40 years in the Bible is God’s way of teaching, his time frame, to come to truth.

    So the Temple was destroyed and Israel (Jews) were set aside. If there were any requirements they have been ignored. I think Acts 28:28 is the final word on the subject and sent to the Gentiles.

    • cv

      wouldn’t it reasonable to assume that if the commandments were inside of us that we would obey them?

      why id obedience offensive.

      obedience in love is freedom, not bondage

    • CV-You call others stiffed neck and wash your feet from us!?!?

      You say you have salvation through Messiah, but willfully and unabashedly walk contrary to how He walked and how the Apostles walked!?!?

      We say we have salvation through Messiah, and willfully endeavor to walk as He and the Apostles walked, and we’re stiffed neck!?!?

      HaSatan through the Romans did their job well!

  97. AL,

    You don’t know me. You don’t know what I do or don’t do. However, I do know that if I do anything of my own accord that it is worthless fifthly rags to God. I love you enough to forward the truth.

    Good luck trying to fulfill all those rules. Self righteous people want to do something so you can say you are better than xyz or you’ve earned it. Look what I’ve done (selfishness) has always been the enemy of God!

    Marianne,
    Obedience is NOT offensive it is the religion of man that slaps YHVH in the face with their traditions that is offensive. Lose your self and gain everything. The commandments are not in us it is the Holy Spirit.

    See you are looking at yourself when you wrote “wouldn’t it reasonable to assume that if the commandments were inside of us that we would obey them.” When you look at yourself you take your eyes off the Tree of Life. All vanity and all pride.

    Who am I to argue with God. He says believe and receive righteousness through His Son and He will dwell in you. He is righteous and lives in me so therefore, I am not required or bondage to the Law. He writes his commandments on my heart and mind. I am a work in progress to become in the image of His Son because of Him (not by me).

    I want each of you here to receive the good tidings and truth. It may be selfish of me but as soon as the Body of Christ is complete we can ALL get out of here and then His Kingdom can come to earth.

  98. CV,

    Well done.

    Thanks for the summary.

    When you pointed to Luke 28:28 – I read it.

    I found the next verse intriguing.

    “‘Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!’

    [After he said these things, the Jews departed, while engaging in a prolonged debate among themselves.]” (Acts 28:28-29,HCSB).

    Blessings to you and all.
    Hebrews 13:20-21

    “20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus—the great Shepherd of the sheep—with the blood of the everlasting covenant, equip you with all that is good to do His will, working in us what is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ. Glory belongs to Him forever and ever. Amen.”

    • CV,

      You pointed to Acts 28:28 not Luke.

      Please excuse the error.

      His Kingdom come. Amen.

    • Nice, a prolonged debate among themselves….As I wrote in the comment That I lost here, the gentiles had no stone to stumble over.
      Blessings.

      • i cannot find it either if i use your exact words
        “the gentiles had no stone to stumble over”

        maybe you used different words to say this.

        hit control F to “find”

        then type in some words you know occurred in the comment

        or just type in your name and you can go through all the comments until you get to the right one

  99. Dear Bro Al and your brothers. What it boils down to is this below that was sent in.

    If the 4th commandment states that the seventh day is holy, and that we should worship Him on that day, and do no work, then that’s what it means!!! To deny that Saturday worship is mandatory, is to claim cheap grace, by setting aside Christ’s testimony.

    You dear brothers are no doubt sincere in what you believe on the Sabbath rest.
    The HARD PART that you just CANNOT receive is The SABBATH is the HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU. IT GUIDES YOU TO ALL TRUTH. THAT TEACHES YOU ALL THINGS CONCERNING YOUR SALVATION. THE SABBATH DAY DOES NOT TEACH YOU THAT. HELLO. Jesus Sabbath rest will get you on fire for God and not hung up in ONE false Doctrine. That really kills your faith.

    THE N.T. Jesus said come into ME and “I”= the Lamb Jesus- will give you your REST for Eternity. By sending you the Holy spirit. And Yes “””I”” and my Father will come to you and into you. St. John chapters 14-16

    But you all cannot receive that simple REVELATION from GOD. It takes a REVELATION from GOD to understand even simple twisted doctrine.
    IT has to be Revealed to you. The HOLY SPIRIT will TUTOR you if you WILL JUST LET HIM IN your H EAR T.

    But you seem to be frozen on the Sabbath as a HOLY DAY brings you salvation. That is the Bottom line of your Sabbath doctrine.

    Do you think a “”certain day”” will forgive your sins when you sin. And yes you and everybody else sins in their life.

    A certain Sabbath Day has no forgiving BLOOD atonement. I speak as a fool when I say that as Paul would say. God wanted to give His people a REST from their LABOR and STRIFE.

    Paul said its by BLOOD. Eternal life Is in the Blood Covenant of GOD Himself. It was Gods blood that ATONED for your sin =Past, present, and future.

    It was the Blood line that was “”tainted”” with sin after the fall. NOT a 24 hour DAY. Life is in the blood. Jesus gave us that life and filled us with His own LIFE and gave us the blood cell of God Eternal. Without the blood their is no salvation. That is why Moses law was not PERFECTED yet. But was FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

    I have talked to you much on this subject. And pray that the Grace and Mercy of God will open your eyes to this truth. At least you are talking to others that do not share your opinion. And that is good. We all need to be tested with our Doctrines. Our we will never get anyway in the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He is the ALPHA & OMEGA THE “AMEN – THE BEGINNING of the NEW CREATION – Jesus was the FIRST FRUITS and we follow HIS WAY and HIS COVENANT ONLY. We can learn from Moses-Elijah-Isaiah-Daniel-Jeremiah- on and on and on. But even the Prophets Blood was tainted as well with sin. It is very very needful for you to understand that Jesus Christ is the Most important Person in the whole Bible. All the O.T did was proclaim a Coming Messiah. Well lets serve him. Lets see what Character was life. His Character had NO SIN IN IT. The O.T sin was not conquered as in the N.T. And when Israel won the great Battles is was all by FAITH not waiting til. Saturday to get Gods permission. The Holy Spirit was in the days of the Whole Bible. Just not let upon the Whole world till Christ came. Gideon started with 32 thousand men. And all God gave him was 300 and they won the battle by FAITH in GODS WORD and no one died. READ HEB. 11 what was it that made Israel so Great. Paul said FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. You all are replacing the Faith by the Word of God to a mere “”Day”” to worship upon. HELLO Im just trying to help you. Christians worship everyday to their God.
    By faith Joshua, by faith Elijah, by Faith David, By faith Moses, By faith Daniel, by faith, by faith, by faith.
    Hey I love you all. Enough to try and persuade you to come to grips with your doctrines and see the truth once and for all.

    Bro. Tom

    • So, what are you saying?
      — Are you advocating Sunday as a legitimate day of worship?

      — Are you saying that Sunday legitimately supplants Saturday as a day of worship?

      • Dan,
        Respectfully asking you, How is that the fourth commandment is written upon the heart? What does that mean, and how is that accomplished? The fourth commandment is the easiest one to physically fulfill, but the hardest to Spiritually fulfill because you have to let go of man centered religion. Read Hebrews 2-5, in particular chapter 4. You Need to enter his resting place, when you do you will wonder why you didn’t do so sooner. There is peace, Joy, and rest in his arms. Please be a berrean about this question. discover this for yourself.

        • I would suggest the same of you with regard to being a Berrean.

          I addressed the 7th day worship issue because another herein claimed that it, and the rest of the commandments were no longer binding.

          I’m going to be concise and succinct

          It’s readily apparent that the 4th commandment is the the lengthiest, which is interesting in itself.

          The Ten commandments are moral law. They are NOT suggestions. They are NOT relative moral guidelines. There is no way to get around this. To believe is error, and to preach otherwise is to espouse situational ethics and moral relativity, to which Dietrich Bonhoeffer referred to as “cheap grace.”

          Within the 4th commandment, Jesus specified the “7th day”. Not just any day within 7, but the 7th day following 6.

          His instructions were clear within the wording on how man should regard and observe the 7th day. We were to regard it as HOLY, and observe it as such.

          “Remember the 7th day to keep it holy.” Deferring to another day for worship is obvious error in light of the meaning of the words within the commandment.

          Jesus was clear regarding what we were to do and not do on the 7th day.

          Jesus was clear about what we were to do on/in the other 6 days

          It is clear that the 7th day was to dwell in our hearts.

          The Sabbath was made for man[as a blessing].

          Lawbreaking has consequence as the thief on the cross knew only too well, even though he was saved. The thief on the cross also knew that Jesus was suffering consequence for something He didn’t do.

          Jesus suffered and died to show what the ultimate consequence of sin would do to the creator.

          If there were no consequence for lawbreaking, There would be no need for 10 commandments, and no need for Jesus to die.

          Agust, if you so choose to use circular logic to justify thoughts or deeds other than what God clearly specifies, that is your choice. God allows choice, but not excuse from consequence.

          You are forgiven, but you are not excused from consequence of lawbreaking.

          .

          • Dan- Great post! I agree completely. You wrote concisely and succinctly as you said you would!

            Shalom

            • Thank you Al,

              I believe that the word of God means what it means.

              I believe that if we presume to write about the word of God, that we should do our best to be as correct and clear as possible so as to be as representative as possible. To not do so, not only misleads others, but ourselves as well!

              The precepts of God’s word are like ingredients in a recipe. Adulterate or omit one or more ingredients, and the end result isn’t the desired or intended outcome.

              .

              • My response is at the bottom.

              • Dan and All-

                I will post this one last thought for now concerning the keeping of His Word / commandments!

                In the Beginning:
                Genesis 3:1-6

                3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any wild animal which Adonai, God, had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You are not to eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman answered the serpent, “We may eat from the fruit of the trees of the garden, 3 but about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden God said, ‘You are neither to eat from it nor touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “It is not true that you will surely die; 5 because God knows that on the day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it had a pleasing appearance and that the tree was desirable for making one wise, she took some of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her; and he ate.

                There is much that could be said about all of this, but will make one broad observation:

                Is it by coincidence (not a kosher word) that Yah BEGINS His Word and the history of man on this earth with a COMMAND, and with a warning of consequences if he breaks that command/His Word

                ———————————————————————————

                In the End:
                Revelation 22:12-13 18-19

                12 “Pay attention!” [says Yeshua,] “I am coming soon, and my rewards are with me to give to each person according to what he has done. 13 I am the ‘A’ and the ‘Z,’ the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

                18 I warn everyone hearing the words of the prophecy in this book that if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues written in this book. 19 And if anyone takes anything away from the words in the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the Tree of Life and the holy city, as described in this book.

                Is it a “coincidence” that Yah ENDS His Word and the history of man’s rule on this earth with a warning of adding to or taking away from His Word!

                Yah ended His Word the way He began it, with the exact same thought!!!! It is one consistent theme from beginning to end, covering the history of man on this earth. Yah does not evolve! The truth He gave at the beginning is the truth at the end. If we are found guilty of willfully breaking His Commands/Word, we will be judged accordingly. If we add to or take away from His Word, we will be judged accordingly. When He said He changes not, He meant it!

                Shalom

  100. Bro. Al = you also asked about Godhead.
    when I was born I was a Son, But in me was a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and those 3 bare witness of my ATTRIBUTES. To have a Son God had to be a Father first. Then He produces Sons of God in HIS IMAGE, and filled them with the Holy Spirit of life.
    That manifestation came with the Age = AGES. God knew He was going to become a “Son of God” to save the whole world. He said it. From the fall to Christ was about 4,000 years before the Messiah the GOD/SON was given. That is why Jesus said in john 14-16 I and the Father will come to you. Then He also said it in a ” Personal” tense by saying “”I”” will come to you.

    The Word, Holy Spirit, God is all the same Spirit. Just in different manifestation’s or “Offices” to save a mans soul. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit was all in the O.T as well but not manifested completely till Messiah Died for us and bought us back from slavery to sin. What a great day that was. No condemn-nation just a peculiar people called Priests and kings. Filled with the Might Holy Spirit which was the Creator in you. That is why we can create our own life. Cause we have the Creator in US NOW. We are the Trees of life. And have NO desire for the carnal tree of death. We hate it.

    1st. We got to believe their is a Father God
    2nd. Then we have to believe He had a Son. God in a flesh body.
    3rd. We have to receive the Son of God to become one Our Self. After the fall.

    1. God above us – Father creator of all things
    2. God with us – Jesus walking in the earth talking to mankind in flesh/body.
    3. Holy Spirit – Was given to the comer who would believe the Messiah

    The 3 is perfection of Salvation.

    Bro. tom – hope this helps a little.

  101. All- Given what Messiah did

    Given what the 12 Apostles did

    Given what Paul did

    Given what the early believers did-who were of the House of
    Israel -Gentiles

    They all walked in the same manner

    There has been no scripture written since the time the Apostles
    wrote by the leading of Ruach HaKodesh

    Question is where did the new and improved understanding come
    From?

    Were all of those who came before misinformed, mistaken, or both?

    We will all find out at the Judgement Seat of Messiah, an appointment
    That will not be put off, if iniquity-lawlessness will be the epitaph of
    The majority of the Christian Church

  102. Dear Al. How about the N.T Proof.
    In the 7 Church’s of Asia Minor their were Jew and Gentiles.
    1. Every Church of the Seven Church’s – Had been preached to in the 1st. Century. Paul and John both went to all 7 of them. And back again.
    2. You cannot disagree with that. The Apostles were Jews. And they preached and taught in all these 7 church’s in that Present time. 1st Century Christians converts and Jews as well.

    YOU SAID: They all walked in the same manner
    a. NO THEY did not. They did not get circumcised. Most synagogues would not even allow them to come into them or their Temple as well.
    b. History and the Bible says the Gentiles worshiped on Sunday. Hello. First day of the Week.
    3. The Jew and Gentile were together for a while before they left Jerusalem. All the Apostles were in Jerusalem for 3 years before they left out on their missions. Yet other Jews also preached the Gospel. example Steven.
    4. So you would have to say – that the Apostles only converted gentile and we know that is NOT the case. The Bible says so.
    5. . Paul preached in the Synagogues and also to Gentiles as well.
    6. Peter and the Apostles of Christ went into the JEWS – And they had JEWISH converts in the 1st century and after 70 A.D .
    7. The Jewish converts to Christianity fled the War of 70 AD and went into all the world. The Bible said they went into all the World.

    YOU SAID – Question is where did the new and improved understanding come from.
    ANSWER Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Paul and hundreds of other Jew and Gentile ministers that preached Christ.
    1. Jesus Christ healed gentile people in HIS MINISTRY as well. And He said its just as easy to say thy “Sins or forgiven” or take up thy bed and walk. Its the same Jesus said.
    2. Jesus went out to all and healed and ministered to all. Remember the Roman Centurion – he said to Jesus just say the word and my servant will be healed. Jesus marveled and said I have not seen such FAITH in ALL of Israel.
    3. He “”did not say”” I have not seen such obedience to the Sabbath day.
    And yes I speak as a foolish man using it to make a point.
    4. Jesus did not even ask the man if he had any sins. He just had faith.

    YOU SAID – Were all of those who came before misinformed, mistaken, or both?
    ANSWER- NO –
    Rev. 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and “thou hast tried them which say they are apostles”, “””and are not”””, and hast “””found them liars”””:
    Rev. 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for “”my name’s””” sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. = true Jewish and Gentile converts.
    a. The 1st church age of Ephesians – Had False ones already in existence. In this church age.
    b. Their were many Jews in Christianity of THAT AGE that got tried and found they were liars especially in the first 3 centuries.
    c. They were fakes and still tried to bring in doctrines from the Law.
    d. They were also Nico-latians.
    e. Where do you think Catholicism got their Idea’s from.

    Smyrna
    Rev. 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich ) and “””I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews””, and are not, but are the “”synagogue of Satan””.

    Pergamos
    Rev. 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where “””Satan’s seat is”””: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast “”NOT DENIED MY FAITH “””,(not sabbath) even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where “”Satan dwelleth””.
    2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

    Thyatira
    Rev. 2:19 I know “”thy works””, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and “”THY WORKS””; and “”the last””” to be more than the first”””.
    This church in Asia. Many Jews lived in Asia as well.
    a. Now Jesus wrote this book. He said WORKS TWICE
    b. Now WORKS is getting worse and faith is getting weaker.
    c. Paul said you started out in the Faith and received the gift.
    If you got the Holy Spirit by faith. Why do you want to go back to the flesh of works. Paul said you FOOLISH Galations – you need to read that Al.

    Rev. 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to “”seduce my servants””” to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
    a. this is absolutely a positive confession from Jesus to the Church’s of Jews and Gentiles. SEDUCE MY SERVANTS were being taught false doctrine.
    b. That was in John and Paul’s day. Remember their was a revival going on in which Christ was being preached and taught. Yet they both have Jewish rivals trying to trick them up. Jesus called them Satans.

    Rev. 2: 23 And I will kill her children with death; and ALL the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and “”I will give unto every one of you “”according to your works””.
    a. NOW we see Faith has dissipated. = hello
    b. Jesus is seeing their works without faith.
    c. And they will be judged by the Word of His New Testament.
    Rev. 2: 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as “””have not this doctrine””, and “””which have not known the depths of Satan””, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
    a. This is clear. Their “””were Jew’s that were anti-christ as John said they were in His Epistle. Claimed they Knew Christ”” – And “”Jews that perverted the Gospel of Christ””by law and rules.
    b. If this is not enough to persuade you – then just believe what you want to.

    God bless – Bro. Tom

  103. Al —Just the names of the 7 Church’s would prove you wrong Bro. Al.
    example 1st age – Losing their first Love. Some could not do it. Some could.
    Just read these churchs faults and you will get it surely. They are symbolic and also started in the times of Paul and John and Disciples.
    ty

  104. Marianne, When Yahshua came He came for the LOST sheep of the House of Israel, those of the 10 Northern tribes, whose transgression was worse than that of the House of Yahudah! Yah partially blinded the Jews because it was not their time, even though many of the Apostles were Jewish. It was a Jewish assembly but for the most part since Yah had blinded them, the early believers were those from the 10 Northern tribes who had been mixed and mingled among the Gentiles and had pretty much lost their heritage. It all goes back to Jacobs blessing over Ephraim of the House of Yosef. Since the Jews have been back in Eretz Yisrael since the 1940’s, they are coming to Yahshua and walking according to His commandments in ever increasing numbers! We are seeing now the coming together of the House of Israel and the House of Yahudah who walk in the testimony of Messiah and keeps the commandments and the Feasts of Yah!

    • i agree

    • He came to make a nation not his own, his own nation, that being Gentiles who were grafted in. The Hebrew people stumbled on the stumbling stone. And continue stumbling to this day because they cannot say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. They revert back to religion instead of turning to their messiah Jesus, Who was and is and is to come, and receive him.
      Quite simple actually.
      His Grace was NOT exclusive only to those of Israel. This is a lie of the devil.

  105. Like I said Al. Believe what you want to. God told Peter to go to the Roman’s house. After 3 visions. Peter finally went to the Gentile Romans house. When Peter got their with witness as well. The Romans heard his Word and Received the Holy Spirit. How do we know this. The Bible plainly says the Romans were speaking in Another language that the Jews understood, Yet the Romans did not know what they were saying. Just like on Day of Pentecost. THAT is absolutely Jew and Gentile gathering together. The Disciples said to themselves how do these speak in our language not knowing it. It was a miracle. Then Peter and the few said ought not we Baptize these that have received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as well. And they went and baptized the whole house of the Romans.

    Dear brother you just cannot see the simple things and really I think you just want to debate and take it back to your Pastor for them to debate or something. Because nothing touch’s you. If you are just playing with the Word for some reason other than really wanting to know the Truth. Its been showed you over and over again. On this very post.

    So I have no more to say. Go ahead and be a SDA. That is just as good as most denominations are. If our hearts are right with God HE knows it.

    You skip whole teaching I sent you and then ask questions. That’s all you want to do is ask questions and never answer back on many things that I have wrote you. If its for you to see the light. Praise God. If Not. I prayed for you the other day. And I hope those prayers get to you and you do not shun them in your heart.

    Bro. Palisade.

  106. To All who have spoken on this thread, whether it was just a post or two or many:

    The discussions concerning all of these things are intense and illicit strong emotions, but we have to keep everything in perspective and keep from getting offended. All of us here are basically airing our views on things, which we all hold strongly to, resulting in intense conversations. We have all slipped from this to one degree or another! To any who are feeling persecuted or deeply wronged by any of these conversations we are having on HA, I am posting a link below to possibly bring some clarity as to possibly why.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/08/the-evangelical-persecution-complex/375506/

    Shalom

  107. The following is what I see as the most salient points to the article above on persecution, or lack thereof:

    “The problem is that for most of U.S. history, Christians haven’t been persecuted—at least not in comparison to early believers or even what Christians in places like Iraq face today. So, the question for American Christians is what to make of the Bible’s warning that we will be persecuted. For many evangelicals, the lack of very public and dramatic persecution could be interpreted as a sign that they just aren’t faithful enough: If they were persecuted, they could be confident they are saved. This creates an incentive to interpret personal experiences and news events as signs of oppression, which are ostensibly validations of our commitment to Christ. The danger of this view is that believers can come to see victimhood as an essential part of their identity.”

    Shalom

  108. Dan,
    That is not an answer to the question I asked of you. I asked, “How is that the fourth commandment is written upon the heart? What does that mean, and how is that accomplished?”

    What you posited is the letter of the law, this is a question of the Spirit of the Law. Read the following passage from 2 Cor. 3. I will highlight with caps, since underlining does not work on this site.

    4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a NEW covenant, not of the LETTER but of the SPIRIT. For the LETTER KILLS, but the Spirit gives LIFE.
    7 Now if the MINISTRY OF DEATH, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have EVEN MORE GLORY? 9 For if there WAS GLORY in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of RIGHTEOUSNESS must FAR exceed it in glory. 10 Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have NO glory at all, because of the glory that SURPASSES it. 11 For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.
    12 Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, 13 not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. 14 But their MINDS WERE HARDENED. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because ONLY through Christ is it taken away. 15 Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their HEARTS. 16 But when one TURNS to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

    Al does not know how to answer this, because he has chosen to keep the veil over his face. The Question is do you?

    Jesus said the following in the sermon on the mount.

    17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5)

    Messianics and SDA’s love to quote these verses, but they never ask what does the law fulfilled mean, and how is it that our righteousness is to exceed that of the Pharisees? The Pharisees more than any others kept the commandments externally, and they knew it and were proud of it, but their hearts were wicked. Especially the fourth commandment. So how is it that we are to exceed them in obedience if you relegate the law to mere external observance thereof? This is not a simple question to deflect away as Al does. This is the very heart of the Gospel.

    Peter, as a second witness to this shows that the apostles understood the transformational nature of the Gospel, and how to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. Again, I will highlight with caps, pay close attention to the language used here.

    His divine power has GRANTED to us all things that pertain to LIFE and GODLINESS, through the KNOWLEDGE of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has GRANTED to us his precious and very great PROMISES, so that through them you may become PARTAKERS of the DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful DESIRE. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these QUALITIES are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord JESUS CHRIST.

    Paul even says that Law does not even speak of these qualities:

    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is NO LAW. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the FLESH with its passions and DESIRES.

    Thus the more we Know Jesus, the more we Are transformed into his likeness, becoming partakers of his divine nature. As Peter writes, this is granted to us by grace, not by our own efforts. ALL of this is saying that keeping the letter of the Law is insufficient to create righteous action. Obedience to the law can only be done via a transformed heart All other obedience is coerced obedience which is not righteous in and of itself. So, how is it that we keep the Sabbath from a transformed heart? We rest in Him. We rest from our works, and trust in Him, and His work in us.

    What is keeping you from entering his rest? the spirit of fear, Not to be mistaken with the Fear of the Lord. You are afraid to show the heart, and what is inside of you. If Christ is in you, you need not fear, for his light will shine, or you can keep that light hidden in earthen Jars, and powerless faith. You may find nothing but wickedness there as well, for which the Gospel needs to be implemented.
    Shalom.

    • The commandments were given by God because they were no longer written on/in the hearts of the people.

      The law should be a joy to adhere to by the believer

      That’s the point

      • AS I have said Dan, Jesus is the law fulfilled. To have him within you is to have the law written on your heart. He is knocking at the door of your heart right now, but you need to let him in. This is not a salvation issue, but a sanctification issue, Just as the verse from Rev. 3 was addressed to believers.
        Please, address the verses above as well.

        • Jesus is the law fulfilled as you have stated.

          To have Jesus in you is to have the law written on your heart as you have stated.

          Salvation is a free gift of forgiveness.

          Jesus sanctified the earth and us by His sacrifice.

          You said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

          What texts did you want me to address?

          Is it implicitly apparent to you that I’m legalistic?
          Is it implicitly apparent to you that I haven’t let Jesus into my heart?

  109. Amen and God Bless you Agust.

  110. Al,
    Actually Al, the first commandment was “be fruitful and multiply”. Not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was the only negative commandment. The Fruit of the Spirit is what we are to produce now, Having been reborn of the Spirit, and a New creation in Christ.

    Now You addressed this comment to “all”, so I am responding to it. But there is an innuendo in there which disturbs me, and that innuendo is that you are accusing those who disagree with you as being cunning serpents. Again, I blessed you because you did not cross the line of committing that sin earlier, but now I am wondering if this was your intent in this comment? That of course, is between you and the Lord. (That is as far as my warning goes here)

    You need to understand that the negative commandments were directed at a rebellious and fallen people… Producing the fruit of the Spirit is what the law cannot produce. ONLY faith can produce the fruit of the Spirit. Jesus, in effect turned all the ten commandments from negatives to positives, when he summed them up with the two great commandments. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and Love your neighbor as yourself. He also added a third great commandment, and that is to Love one another as he Loved us. The second commandment being brotherly Love, and the third being Agape Love. This is why Peter has two forms of Love on his list of qualities or fruit of the Spirit.

    5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection(Phileo), and brotherly affection with love (Agape).

    Do You see, how this all begins with faith?

    Negative liberties are meant to constrain rebellious people. The commandments have their place in earthly civilization for doing this, even to this day. But we as believers…Those who are led by the Spirit no longer live by the law. Instead we are to be Spiritually fruitful, and multiply. Hence the impetus for spreading the Gospel, and the great commission. Love is the Law we live by, and God is Love. The Law still has the power to condemn, but it is unable to produce the fruit of the Spirit. The Law as written on stone is for carnal flesh, Those who are led by the Spirit have the Law written on their hearts and are fruitful because of it.

    That is what I am encouraging you to discover. The Power of Faith. We overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony (Rev.12:11) If you stop at obeying the Law as written in stone, then you have not gone far enough, and will be ineffective. You must go beyond the Law to being fruitful. Then, your righteousness will exceed that of the Pharisees. But this is only by faith, producing works, Not by your own efforts. It comes with relationship, not with religion. It comes with submitting to God’s will in your life (meekness), and not the will of man. I Pray you understand what I am saying here. To put it simply, The Law, and our labor to obey the Law leads us to failure, and the foot of the cross in repentence (Or a hardened heart depending on if you remain in rebellion). Via faith comes repentance and forgiveness, and salvation, which leads to the fruit of the Spirit.

    Many word faith preachers like to ignore the Epistle of James. I have no problem with what he wrote.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (2:18) When you understand that the works he is talking about are the fruit of the Spirit that ONLY come by faith, then you will understand what he is saying when he says “showing faith by our works”. Just as Peter in the aforementioned scripture says that we must add to faith virtue, and to virtue, knowledge, and to knowledge godliness etc. Our growth does not stop at salvation, but continues on, till we eventually, though not in all cases Love one another as Christ loved us, with Agape Love. That is when you produce a hundredfold of the Fruit of the Spirit.

    So Al, my wish for you, is that you go BEYOND mere obedience to the Law, and Be fruitful and multiply!
    Blessings

    • agust

      i do not think dan is emphasizing “mere” obedience to the law. if the law is in our hearts, we will obey it, and NOT rebel.

      those who refuse to obey the law are the rebellious ones

    • Dan,
      Tom’s comment was referring to the fact that neither you nor Al like to respond to the scriptures we post for you as proof of what we are talking about, instead, you deflect from responding to them. For example How is it that your view ignores or negates the passage in 2 Cor 3 that I posted above. Or How you cannot answer the question on how it is that our righteousness is to exceed that of the Pharisees, who obeyed the letter of the law but not the Spirit of the law.
      I am taking the time to share this with you here, because I Love all of you and do not wish you to be ineffective and powerless in the faith in these end times. Not to build up your stubborn resistance to the Truth, and thereby to Jesus who is the Way the Truth and the Life. As Paul says, the Letter Kills.
      Blessings

      • agust

        dan is not required to answer any comment.

        no one is forced to do that on this site.

        sometimes one sees that their point is ignored by those who persist with scriptures that are not the proper response.

        so why address irrelevant scriptures?

        while all scripture is good, it has to relate to the debate at hand.

        I do not respond to every scripture either…because it would take too long

        I think you should be leaving divine judgement up to god, and not take it upon yourself

      • You declared that it was a “FACT” that I don’t like to respond to scriptures that you post.

        Are you sure that is what I’m doing?

        • No its an observation Dan. You do not reply directly to the scriptures I posted, or others here have posted.

          • Your “observation” is subjective, yet you declared that I “don’t respond to scripture” as fact.

            Do you declare such because it seems to you that I don’t respond in a timely manner?

    • Marianne,
      The letter of the law kills…..that is what Dan posited to me in response to my question on how it is that we write the fourth commandment upon our hearts?
      The lesson here, is that the Hebrew people did not enter God’s resting place, though they entered the promised land.
      Hebrews 4 states:
      Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. 2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest,……6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,” saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted,
      “Today, if you hear his voice,
      do not harden your hearts.”
      8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. 9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, 10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

      My desire is to see you all enter that resting place, that comes with relationship, and not with religion. Do not harden your hearts as Israel did and failed to enter God’s resting place. The writer then continues…
      11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

      This is the lesson the preterist has for all here. We enter that rest here and now by our opening the door to Jesus. (Read letter to Laodicea) Or else we will be found naked and poor, and he will spew us out. THIS IS NOT A JOKE, or a even a debate, but a warning, and why I left the messianic church. They were so lost in the letter of the law, they could not see the fulfillment of the law written on our hearts.

      • Marianne,
        Those are not “irrelevant scriptures” they are right on topic. I am not here to debate for debates sake. There is no time for that anymore, it is time to make a stand. Do you stand on the side of relationship, or religion? One group goes to the left, the other to the right. The separation has begun, and you MUST choose. As DJ wrote, “the Judge is at the door”, I am not the Judge, but even the Judge has people out gathering for him…Do you understand this?? Or did you miss this in scripture because you saw it as irrelevant??
        Goodbye

        • You are correct in that there is little or no time for debate. The Arctic Methane threat assures us all of this. “The Pope” is set to address climate issues this Sept 23. Very interesting

        • agust

          like i said , all scriptures are good, if they are used correctly

          but yours do NOT apply to DAn, or anyone who obeys God under the new dispensation of grace

          you are willfully ignoring the HEART of the new covenant, which makes all yokes easy with christ….the law is NOT done away with..

          like as been said numerous times on this page and others, if the law is written on the hearts of the saints, then they will obey god out of love, not obligation.

          this is freedom, not a burden.

          by continuing to assert that people are “under the law” because they love and obey god is blindness

          if you think you can disobey god and use grace as an excuse to sin, then you are wrong.

          those that belong to the Lord DELIGHT in obedience..there is no burden or bondage….only FREEDOM

        • Maryanne,
          We are discussing the letter of the law vs. the Spirit of the Law. The scripture from 2 Cor. 3 very much applies to this discussion.
          We are talking about relationship vs. religion. we are talking motives for obedience, whether they be true or false. That is the distinction here that I am getting at. I love Jesus, Jesus is the Law fulfilled, therefore I love the law because it points to Jesus. We are talking about exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees, who obeyed the Letter of the law, but their hearts were not changed. Their motive was pride, murder, Hatred, jelousy…You name it. The Fruit of the Spirit are beyond the reach of the letter of law. They are not produced by man’s efforts, but rather through the work of the Holy Spirit in us. But before that can happen, we need to rest from our works, hence the fourth commandment, not just one day a week but for all eternity.

          Read john 8. The Jews speaking to Jesus, like you above thought they were free, but they were slaves to sin. Their efforts consumed them to try and please God by carnally obeying the law. But what in fact they were doing was remaining in bondage because they never learned how to trust in the Lord…..Remember the old kids song, trust and obey….The relationship comes first, the trust, the rest.

          31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

          34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

          Jesus then went on to expose their heart and their motives, which were to kill the one sent from God.

          A slave to sin is one whose heart has not been transformed. We must be Spiritually reborn, a new creation in Christ. Then, who resides in us is Jesus, the law fulfilled. We have put to death the natural man, and his presence fills our inner being. “Yet not I but Christ who lives in me.”

          Its all about motives, and exposing the heart. If something other than love comes out, we need to repent, and give him control.

          As a former addict….it was not until I stopped trying and let God change me, that I overcame those addictions, to the point that the desire is no longer there. Most of the programs I tried, tried to suppress the desire, or substitute it with other efforts, they did not work. The desire still enslaved me. Now I have no desire for those things, and am truly free. This is only a miniscule example. Hatred in the heart, jealousy in the heart, adultery in the heart are far greater slavemasters than alcohol. You cannot merely suppress those desires because in the heat of battle they will be exposed….In trials and tribulations they will be exposed. Our power comes through the faith that the Lord has overcome the slavemaster in us, provided we have allowed him in. Surrendered to his will fully. Then, in the heat of battle, the light will shine out of us.

          Let me use an analogy here. There was a very religious person in my church, who was highly regarded. He was put into a situation where he could have saved lives (robbery where he worked), but instead of acting, he froze, and chose self preservation over Helping others. His faith did not produce the fruit, because it did not change the heart. It was all external obedience, an outward façade to cover inner corruption. When his time came there was no light in him. This is an extreme case, but it is the same thing that gave the apostles the strength to face the persecutions they faced. This is the Power of faith. As we enter these times, we will need this strength. It is not of our own will, or effort, but of the Work of Jesus in our lives. Al Posted an article on persecution in the church….this is the answer to that. It is our faith that moves mountains, and will produce greater works than the ones Jesus did while he was on earth. I am trying to show you all the way…Jesus is the way. Relationship, not religion…when we are weak that is when we are strong…Do you understand now?

          I believe that the mark of the beast will soon be implemented, and we will face the persecution. We do not have much time to make ready. Hence the urgency in my tone. Debating will get you nowhere. Its time to turn to Jesus (teshuvah). Seek his face, and follow him. Pray for wisdom, and he will grant it to you.

          May God bless all here.

          • that is all fine and good, but dan is not defective in this way….

            dan has the relationship with the lord you speak of.

            he has the right motives

          • Agust, you said, “Relationship, not religion…when we are weak that is when we are strong…”. You are correct.

            You are correct. The Mark of the Beast is just around the corner. The image/idol/icon of the Beast has been here for centuries.

            Regarding the Mark of the Beast, most will not recognize the image/icon/idol of the beast, nor the Mark of the Beast, because they will not sufficiently regard God or their fellow man; and will worship the image of the Beast and accept the Mark, at the expense of their fellow man, thinking that they do service to God.

            • Dan, Do you see how Marianne twists my words? I said you and Al were being “deflective” in your responses, meaning deflecting from the scriptures posted for you, and going off on a tangent.
              Marrianne wrote that I called your theories “defective” meaning they are faulty. She in effect turned a request of mine into an accusation against you….But again she will not correct herself. It is an attempt to turn a conversation into a debate. I have no ill will towards either you or Al. These are very important discussions to have. And these discussions are taking place all over. The Holy Spirit is stirring believers to “enter his rest”. You can see it in the videos I posted for Al from Alan Horvath….before watching the video on rest, I had never seen his videos before. This was not a coincidence that I was led to them. And it certainly was not an accident that he was led to make them in this time of teshuvah, where we are to “return” and seek his face.
              So please, do not let this “good moderator” turn this into a pit of vipers.
              Blessings.

              • agust

                you are testing my patience. this is my blog, and you are a guest. this does not entitle you to insult people and call them vipers.

                if I said defective, that is what i meant….and I was not trying to quote you ..

                you can treat others as wrong, which means you think their opinion is defective, as compared to your opinion.

                I have also agreed with you as well on comments you made…and you did not acknowledge them….so I must only be a viper when I disagree.

                be polite or do not comment here.

              • @Agust,

                As Marianne, I too have registered agreement with you herein this blog. Your acknowledgement is not mandatory, and I certainly take no offense if you do not respond.

                You might want to capitalize upon your successes for the purpose of gaining ground with other positions

          • @Agust,

            You said, “let me use an analogy here. There was a very religious person in my church, who was highly regarded. He was put into a situation where he could have saved lives (robbery where he worked), but instead of acting, he froze, and chose self preservation over Helping others. His faith did not produce the fruit, because it did not change the heart. It was all external obedience, an outward façade to cover inner corruption. When his time came there was no light in him.”

            Do you realize how many emphatic, incontrovertible declarations and judgments you made within the above analogy?

            — Why he froze is subjective
            — His faith might have produced fruit elsewhere, unknown to us
            — We cannot judge his heart from such and analogy
            — We cannot judge his obedience from one incident
            — The fruits of one incident does not fully define a person
            — An outward facade is subjective
            — “No light in him” is subjective

            Nobody on this earth is perfect. The prophets were imperfect. Some did some amazingly brave things, in the face of mortal danger, yet did some amazingly evil things. King David for one. David sinned greatly, yet many great things for the Lord, not the least of which was to kill Goliath.

            Moses fled Egypt only to return and stand up to Pharaoh. Moses struck the rock for water without God’s permission and was forgiven, but not excused. He was not allowed to enter the promised land, yet was buried with God’s own hand.

            One of the most powerful lessons that I’ve learned in life is to withhold judgment. Judgment limits higher intellect. The silver lining to withholding judgment is an objectivity far beyond limitations of judgment.

            Judge not, lest yet be judged.

            Dan

            • i agree here

              most people would freeze during danger.

            • I would also concur with what Dan said regarding Agust’s post. As a good example, all we have to do is look at Peter’s desire for self preservation when he denied Christ three times before the rooster crowed. Yet, after Peter matured in faith, he did indeed put the love of Christ before his own life.

              • @dmcal52,

                Excellent example!

                Excellent post!

              • Don,

                Bravo, that is exactly the reason that I placed that analogy in my comment. Peter’s inability to confess Christ was due to his lack of faith, despite proclaiming he would never deny Christ, he froze and did so thrice. I am going to post something from A.W. Tozer here, because it illustrates this well.

                “Carnal fear may take either two opposite directions. It may make us afraid to do what we know we should do, or afraid not to do what we have reason to think people expect us to do. Courage lies somewhere between these two extremes…..
                This morality by public pressure is not pure morality at all. At best it is a timid righteousness of doubtful Parentage; at worst it is a child of weakness and fear. A free Christian should act from within with a total disregard for the opinions of others. If a course is right he should take it because it is right, not because he is afraid not to take it. And if it is wrong he should avoid it though he lose every friend, his property, his freedom and even his very life as a consequence.
                Fear of the opinion of the group tends to regiment the members of a denomination and churches and force them into a cookie-cutter uniformity. he desire to stand well with our own circle of religious friends destroys originality and makes imitators out of us. Various churches have their approved experiences, their Shibboleths, even their accepted religious tones; these become standard for the group and are to the local fellowship what circumcision was to Israel, a ceremonial token of acceptance into the clan.
                The great fault in all this is that it shifts the life motivation from within to without, from God to our fellow man. Any act done because we are afraid not to do it must take its place along with any act that is not done because we are afraid to do it. FEAR, not love and faith, dictates the conduct, and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
                The way to escape this double snare is simple. Make a complete surrender to God; Love him with all your heart and love every man for His sake. Determine to obey your own convictions as they crystalize within you as a result of prayer and constant study of the scriptures. After that you may safely ignore the expectations of your friends as well as the criticisms of your enemies. You will experience first the shocked surprise of the regimented army of lock step believers, Then their grudging admiration, and if you continue to walk in the way of love and courage they will take heart from your example, throw off the bondage of fear and go forth as ransomed men and women to walk in the sweet liberty wherewith Christ has made them free.”

                (Taken from The book “The price of Neglect”, Chapter 18, “We Need Deliverance From Carnal Fear.” )

                Do you see now why I am not afraid to challenge you, and even the moderator? She is trying to keep you all in lockstep with her ways, and are missing out on the way being offered to escape her snare. You all are behaving exactly as this article predicted, as a “regimented army”, The question is, will you break free from the snare of powerless faith as Peter had in denying Christ, Or will you Surrender to God and do his will? Will your faith move from words to actions? Will you break free from the bonds of religion, and move into relationship? If I were to “tone down” my comments, I would be disobeying God. Even Jesus spoke “impolitely” when speaking to the Pharisees in John 8, and pronouncing Woes on them in Matthew 23.

                Religion is a spirit that creeps in unawares. You cannot see the chains you are under, until you are free, you will live in delusion that you are doing the will of God. The Letter of the law kills, the Spirit of the Law is life. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

                Blessings to all, as this will be the last comment To You all. I came here with an invitation which has been rejected (To enter his Rest). Now The Lord is sending me elsewhere.

                To DAn: Withholding judgment in the church setting is the reason why the church is in the harlotry and powerlessness it is in today. The Lesson you learned was fear taking hold….Carnal fear, Like Peter, denying Christ. There is one thing I am never accused of is being afraid to speak what he has given me to speak. We are Instructed to correct and rebuke one another….That is because none of us are perfect….That includes Marianne who has failed to apologize for her false accusations and twisting of what I have written. But as I leave here, I Like Christ am willing to forgive her of these things, For she does not now what she is doing.

                • agust

                  you are the one on the attack, not me.

                  until you learn some manners, and get delivered from your critical religious spirit, you are blocked.

                  I do not need your forgiveness for alleged crimes…..get off your high horse and stop the sanctimonious rants

                • Agust,

                  My point in mentioning Peter was, he failed miserably, yet Jesus said to him,

                  “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

                  So regarding the above, Jesus knew that Peter was going to fail and he even told him that he was and notice what he says to him “And when you have turned back.” My point is that if we fail, then we need only to confess our sin and he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us of all unrighteousness. Remember, we are being transformed into his image. Therefore, sanctification, which is the process of being made holy, is an on-going process as we go from faith to faith. We are all at different stages of maturity and knowledge in Christ. In my faith my attitude is the same as Job’s who said, “though he kill me, yet will I trust in him. Something that I always include in my prayers is that God would give me strength that I would not love my life so much as to resist death while keeping the testimony of Jesus and the word of God. Saying and praying that is one thing, but I have yet to be tested on that. I would hope that If that time came, that I would have a spirit like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who would rather be thrown into the fire than to turn away from God to save their own lives. But your attitude doesn’t seem to leave any room for grace or growth.

                  By the way, regarding the following:

                  “Will you break free from the bonds of religion, and move into relationship?

                  I am not nor have I ever been in the bonds of religion. My faith is in Christ alone, not in the church or anything or anyone else. My studies are my own and I don’t visit web sites or watch videos to find out the truth. For I have the source of all truth at my finger tips, which is the word of God and therefore, I do not need any man to tell me what the scriptures are saying.

                  In conclusion, believers are going to make mistakes. The important thing is to never give up. If we fail , then we need to confess it, learn from it, and move on in the Lord and God willing we’ll get it right next time.

            • Dan,
              Read 1 Corinthians 5:9-13.
              God bless.

      • agust

        if the law kills, then why did god put the law on our hearts….to kill us?

        no, our hearts are not hardened….. yours is

        we received the law to our hearts with love and acceptance

        so we submitted to god, and you rebel

        with the law in our hearts, we do not die, but live

        we instinctively know how to obey and what to do ….because the holy spirit leads us

        you do not want the law written on your heart.

        you want to do as you please.

        for you, the law is OUTSIDE your heart, so everything is HARD, and you do not want to do it

        so disobey god, and see what happens

    • A- Being fruitful and multiplying was and is an innate instinct that Yah placed within us through His Words-He spoke creation into being and spoke the impulse to procreate into the male and female, which left no room for freewill to either obey or disobey!

      A commandment requires a decision on our part through our free will, whether to obey or not, with man being accountable for his/her actions!

      • Al,
        You mean I do not have a choice as to whether I have kids or not? I cannot choose to remain celibate?
        That is a commandment. A positive one.
        That is the natural birth. We are also commanded to be fruitful in fulfilling our great commission. Spiritual birth. This again is a positive one. A “thou shalt” command, and not a “thou shalt not command”.
        Sorry, your logic is flawed here.

        • Nothing but word games! Stay in your theoretical, philosophically, spiritualized world. Makes no difference to me. Go talk to Tom or youself, the three of you can speak in circles to each other!

      • Al,
        please notice when he breaks down the word “rest” in Hebrew.

      • Here is another from the same guy on the fruit of the Spirit.

        He put both of these videos up over the past week couple of weeks. coincidence?
        Or the Gospel of the Kingdom?
        If you want to enter His millennium rest, you must enter his resting place here and now, and begin bearing fruit.

  111. Dan, and All.
    Do not fall for the contempt that certain people want you to fall into, but search for the truth here. Marianne, who is supposed to be a moderator is anything but. She says that I said the “law kills”. I did not say that and this was an attempt on her part to pit people against the Truth. I Said, and was quoting the apostle Paul in saying the “letter of the law kills”. There is a big difference in these two statements, and I doubt very much she will apologize for her false accusation.
    That being said, the real question here is “how to overcome sin?” I Found the following article by Charles Finney that you may want to read. It outlines about everything that I have written here to you, and probably more cogently than I could ever write it. Now I know that many people did not ike Charles Finney, especially in the presbyterrean church in which he was ordained, because he stood up to the churchianity of his day and stressed relationship over religion. But the fruit of his ministry has stood the test of time, much as a prophet is despised in their lifetime, but honored in their death (That is a paraphrased quote from Ravenhill talking about Charles Finney).
    At any rate, If you have an honest heart, and are searching for the Truth, then please take the time to read this, I think it took me about 10 minutes ofyour time, but it may change your life forever.

    http://lovestthoume.com/FeedMySheep/HowToOvercomeSin.html

    As for the order of events that is to come, They are quite well outlined in Rev. 14.The Gospel of the kingdom preached…which is what I am doing here for you now, The fall of Babylon (Economic collapse beginning now watch out come Monday), Mark of the beast, and the endurance of the saints followed by the rapture. Most are not ready for this. They think they will be raptured before the mark of the beast hits which is not true. The next year and a half will be quite telling, and the separation has begun.

    Many blessings to those who have ears to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. We overcome Satan by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. (Rev 12:11).

    • agust

      to me the letter of the law kills, and the law kills, means the same thing.

      because those who say this think any observance to the law puts them under the condemnation to the law, if they are not perfect in their observance.

      I think most here agree with you that the relationship is of utmost importance.

      I agree about the next year and a half…and maybe beyond that.

      I also agree with most are not ready for what is to come…..even with believers in the family, many cannot get their loved ones to understand and prepare.

    • Then your disagreement is with the Apostle Paul, because he said the following:
      For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. and then went on to call the Law the “ministry of death”. (2 cor. 3:6-7)

      Or perhaps even Romans 7:6
      But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
      This is pretty straight forward. Letter of the Law=death, Spirit of the Law= life abundant and free. Both have Law, so nowhere did I say the “law kills” as you claim. It is a question of external vs. internal obedience, and a transformed heart.

      Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
      That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:5-6)

    • @Agust,

      Actually, Marianne is a very good moderator.

      She’s had to get on me on occasion to observe the academic aspect of an argument.

      If a person disagrees, they should state their case and not get personal.

      • As I said, she would not apologize for her false accusation against me…That makes her a “good moderator”???

        • @Agust,

          You’ve made allegations and accusations against me, and I haven’t lost sleep over it. I just retreat a bit to think things over and regroup, so that I might mount an effective academic reply and/or rebuttal that hopefully will hold the interest of the reader. It is incumbent upon the writer to entice the reader; which is what the Bible has come to be with me.

          Speaking or writing in an emphatic, incontrovertible manner quickly loses the interest of listeners or readers. To that end, I try to not be accusative, or to make summary declarations without clear, concise, and sufficient facts in evidence to support such declarations. I’m not always successful in this regard, but I try.

          A writer can chose to exercise interrogative skills, or frustrate themselves by beating others over the head with what they believe “is”, is. It’s a win, win, or a lose lose.

          I attempted to compel another herein to answer my specific questions regarding comments that I took issue with. Guess what? They don’t have to answer! What I was doing was badgering, and Marianne called me on it. She was right.

          This blog is a system of attraction, within which we all submit ideas, concepts, facts in evidence, and whatever else, for reasons to include: queries, edification of others, etc, whatever!

          The Bible does the same thing. The Bible isn’t going to convince or save everybody however. And yet God continues with it and other things to try to attract man’s attention.

          Regarding the ten commandments which I addressed in a previous comment, God cites rules, laws, and commandments to keep us safe within this amusement park world and universe. Yet we break’m all of the time, and we or others suffer consequence of such action. God’s rules, law, and commandments are immutable. If we break them, we are forgiven, but not exempt. To claim that Jesus death exempted us from rules is to claim cheap grace.

          Now I just made tons of declarations within the last paragraph. Are they unfounded?

          I should now close, because I run the risk of losing the reader’s interest

          Peace

          Dan

        • “Look” at Marianne’s “accusation” in context. Is your accusation of her “accusation” well founded?

          Was Marianne’s word choice a reflection of her impression of what she thought that you were conveying?

  112. Everyone- From Messiah on for 300 hundred years, followers of Yahshua walked in “GRACE” through the light of the “LAW”; Torah-the Commandments! It is verifiable through the historical account and the Word! The words grace and law are not antithetical to each other. They are the attributes of Messiah, for it was He who was the lawgiver (according to the book of James) at Sinai, and He was the Lamb of Yah, which most here realize. As said before, this is not an either or decision. To do so is to deny who He is, in one way or the other. But saying that changes nothing, and I understand that.

    Has anyone ever wondered why, what is called the great tribulation, at the end of time, is referred to as a time of trouble, unlike anything the world has ever seen before? Did Yah just unilaterally choose that time to open the floodgates of trouble on this earth, just because He felt it to be a good time to do it?? Did He love the people at the beginning more than the people living at the end of time?

    New American Standard Bible Genesis 15:16

    “Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”

    Everything Yah does is according to His purpose. It was that way in the beginning and it is that way now. So, why has Yah saved the worst for the end of days?

    I don’t believe He “directly” chose it; I believe man (from the beginning to the end) did, through their disobedience to His Word! In aprox. 1313 BC, Messiah gave us His Word-Torah for man to walk in and subjected all of creation to His laws, from the beginning (understanding that the Tree of Life is synonymous with Torah) . What I do believe is that, at the end, the fullness of man’s iniquity-lawlessness will be complete and the penalty for that lawlessness, (walking contrary to His Word Torah) will be poured out on man and the creation, at the end of the Sixth day, with Yah keeping His people “through” it, to enter the Millennial Reign of Messiah during the 7th day!

    Discount His Law if you will and walk contrary to it. Lawlessness is never given a positive meaning and the outcome is always JUDGMENT! Never too late to get this right!!

    Shalom

    • Al,

      You said:
      “Everyone- From Messiah on for 300 hundred years, followers of Yahshua walked in “GRACE” through the light of the “LAW” Torah-the Commandments! ”

      The above is a contradiction in terms. You can’t walk in grace by the law of Moses for grace and the law are two different covenants. During the time of Israel, they were required to keep the law combined with faith. Today, those who belong to the body of Christ are saved by grace through faith apart from the works of the law of Moses. Attempting to keep the law of Moses cancels out grace. You’re under either one or the other, but not both. Grace is being free from the bondage of the law through faith in Christ. Anyone who is attempting to keep the law as a requirement for salvation has been alienated from Christ and has wandered away from grace. Fix your eyes on Christ as the one who accomplished the purpose for which the law was given and let us consider ourselves dead to that covenant, which by the way Gentiles were never given.

      “What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place. But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.”

      We are 2000 years removed from the law of Moses, but it appears that Satan continues to deceive by causing the Gentiles to stumble over the stumbling stone as well.

      I thank God that I am not bound by the law, but am free in Christ who freed me from the curse of the law.

      • dmcal

        you said

        “Anyone who is attempting to keep the law as a requirement for salvation has been alienated from Christ and has wandered away from grace.”

        this is not what he is saying

        this is not about earning salvation through works.

        it is about obeying god while under grace.

        why do you suppose god told 5 out of 7 churches to “repent?”

        they were breaking his commandments…..!

        they were supposed to be under grace, but they were living in disobedience

        • Hi Marianne,

          And this is what many do not understand, which is why I believe Jesus said, “many will say to me, Lord, Lord.” Regarding this subject many are blinded. They say that Jesus is there only hope for salvation, but then their posts betray them. The reason that he told not only 5 out of 7 churches, but that every believer must repent and that from the sinful nature. Does that mean that we are sinless, no! It means that our spirit is in agreement with God about our sinful state and the true believer fights to overcome the acts of the sinful nature. The flesh wars against the spirit and spirit against the flesh, because they are contrary to one another. The one who hasn’t repented, is the one who is willfully living in that state. The commandments of God under this new covenant is to believe in the One God sent and to love one another. We are in no way under any of the commandments given to Israel, which would be 600 some odd laws. We are dead to that complete covenant. The covenant in Christ is nothing like the law given to Israel. We as the church were never given the law to be under it. This why Paul said:

          “For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law–I stopped trying to meet all its requirements–so that I might live for God.”

          When he says “Law” he is referring to the entire law of Moses including the ten commandments, the keeping of Sabbath days, holy days, abstaining from food and whatever else there is. And that because we are not under that covenant! We are under the first covenant, which was given 430 years before the law were we are credited with righteousness through faith. That faith is solely believing that Christ accomplished it all and we are no longer attempting to keep those ordinances and regulations, because it brings wrath when we fail at them. Christ accomplished the law and its requirements were met completely by him.

          I continue to use the counsel of Jerusalem as proof, because it does away with the question regarding whether we are under the law or not. Peter’s answer to this should end the argument, but because Satan is alive an well, people are still trusting in their own efforts. When a person says that I must keep the Sabbath on Saturday or I have no salvation, then with that one requirement it separates them from grace and that because it is something that a person can take credit for. We shouldn’t even be concerned with this, for we should be completely trusting in Christ as the One who accomplished it for us. I keep hearing people say, “Oh, I’m not under the law. I trust in Christ” and then their posts paint a different picture. My trust is completely in Christ. I don’t turn to Leviticus and read the ten commandments on a daily basis so as to make sure that I don’t break any of them and that because I am dead to the law. I’m completely fee from it. I follow in the new way in Christ, led by the Spirit. We are not under the written code, ordinances and regulations.

          The reason that there is opposition to this is because of lack of understanding. A person is either completely trusting in Christ for their salvation or they are under the law. There is no middle ground! By putting oneself under either one, even a sliver, it cancels the other one out. The Holy Spirit through Paul came at this issue from every direction to get the point across. One of the examples that he used was that of marriage. As long as both husband and wife are alive they are bound by the laws of marriage. But, when either one of them dies, then the one who is still alive is free from the law of that marriage, completely! The living partner is no longer carrying on any part of that marriage obligation. Not one iota! The law was our husband and we were bound to the obligation of that marriage, but we died to the law and are no longer obligated to that husband. We belong to another, under a completely different covenant. I don’t think of keeping anything, I just attempt to walk as Christ did. He met all the requirements of the law on my behalf, bringing it to its fulfillment. The law is no longer an issue. Jesus rescued us from the bondage of the law. Regarding the law Peter said, “Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear.” That yoke that Peter is speaking of is circumcision and the law of Moses.

          When God gives me opportunity to preach the gospel and share his word, I don’t tell people, “Now if you want to be saved, confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead and make sure to read and obey the ten commandments. And don’t forget to keep the Sabbath on Saturday, etc., etc. I tell them to follow Christ. I don’t mention anything about the law to them as a requirement for salvation. You say that you’re not trusting in the law, but then many peoples posts reveal the truth. By their posts I can tell when a person is trusting in their own works. That is why I have continued to contend for this because I keep seeing the signs of those who are still putting themselves under the law. We are not under the ten commandments! We don’t follow that way.

          This issue regarding the law vs. grace is just one of the deceptions that the powers of darkness continues to use in order to separate people from the grace of God.

          • I think we actually agree,, it just does not sound like it.

            i do not trust in my own works…..or use them for salvation sake

            but I will obey when it says to worship only the one true god, to avoid false gods, to not use god’s name in vain, to honor my parents, to avoid adultery, jealousy over another’s possessions, to never murder, etc

            I am not preoccupied with how many knots to tie up the tabernacle cords, or how many hins of oil i need for a sacrifice…that system is gone

      • I don’t get why being under the law is a “curse”

      • Don, Since you know everyone’s heart and motivation for posting here, all anyone has to do is go to you to find truth! Because you “perceive” grace and law to be contradictory terms, my guess would be that you view love and justice as contradictory terms also! You have a very sophmoric approach to all of this. Your whole conception of Yashua is based on a Hellenized,Greek mentality, based on the misunderstood writings of Paul. We were warned that his writings were not easily understood, but that has not stopped the Christian Church from putting their whole understanding, basically into the writings of one man, who was a Torah observant Jew his whole life! Did Paul lie? Was he misinformed? Did he change his thinking on how he believed, while pretending to be Torah observant??? According to you, what Paul said we are left with is this etheral, esoteric philosophy, totally devoid of anything concrete, which does not represent the fullness of who Messiah is! Meditating and basking in his loving kindness, being eternally grateful and humble before Him is a wonderful thing, and we do that as His people. Receiving His atoning blood for our salvation, we have received with all thankfulness! Because of those things, we emulate how He walked; we emulate how Paul walked and also those who learned from Paul, and their ancestors for approx 300 years. After that, Rome took over and lawlessness became the new paradigm, which is what you espouse here today! As long as time exists, Yah’s law governs His people who traverse on this earth! Messiah wrote His law on our hearts, so our obedience would come from a thankful willing heart to conform to His likeness in our inner man and our earthly walk!

        You basically say that is heretical! Messiah will be the judge of that-On That Day!

        Shalom

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