When God shows up

Most people realize that another world war is around the corner, but too many are gullible. They think the diplomacy of politicians will prevent it. The next world war will be Satan’s finest hour, in his effort to destroy the people of God.

What will God do about it, and which side will you be on?

The Day of the Lord is described in Zechariah 14.

Where will it happen?

It will not happen in Iran, Iraq, or the USA, although hostilities may occur.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

*** only the unbelieving half is captured. The remnant that has returned to Israel will not be cut off , or killed. This is the half that is saved. Judah (Israel) is still free in verse 14 to fight.

*** I have wondered WHY all nations would come against Israel. The only thing I can think of at this time is fear about security, and loss of oil from Arab countries. Iran, Syria or other terrorist states will continue to build nuclear arsenals, and control oil supplies. Israel may have no choice but to initiate a pre-emptive attack to destroy the nuclear manufacturing sites, and prevent a nuclear holocaust.

They would initiate this, because the surrounding nations will refuse to place Israel’s safety and welfare before Arab oil supplies (Gas and oil prices are already too high). No one else will stop Iran (or whatever terrorist country is the problem).

The cowardly, unbelieving world will betray Israel, leaving it to fight and die on its own. The pre-emptive attack would anger the terrorists. If the terrorists then withheld oil from other countries unless they supported a massive attack on Israel, then that would explain why so many are involved.

The battle seems to take place on the ground a lot here, and less from the air, which means some military anti-Israel aspect has been disabled by Israel. This world attack against Israel would be a massive effort to stop it from acts of self preservation, and restore economies that need Arab oil, which has been cut off, as a bargaining tool, to get them to comply with terrorist demands.

The Lord controls the fight, not man

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

*** Here, if anyone had any sense, they would stay out of this. Only stupid people think they can fight God and win. The Lord, Jesus, finally comes in his role as Messiah King, comes to do the will of His Father God. He is not coming as the gentle shepherd here. He is coming as a warrior.

Above: the eastern gate from the Mount of Olives. The earthquake will break open the eastern gate, which is the gate of the Prince, and the Messiah will walk through there to establish his temple.

The Syrian – African rift – how the earth will split once the Lord sets down his foot on the Mount of Olives.

The Lord causes the “earthquake of deliverance”

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which [is] before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

*** Notice it does not take the Lord long to put an end to the war. He stops it in one day. It was promised that Jesus would return as he left. He left from the Mount of Olives, and He will return there. His feet touches the mountain, producing an earthquake along the Syrian- African rift.

Of course, God knew about this geological fault thousands of years ago, and put this in the Word of God, to prove his Word is true. The rift has been proven to move along north – south lines, but the result would be a valley that goes east – west. The Bible is scientifically accurate !


Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

*** a major question….where is Azal ???? There are places from Europe to Afghanistan that carry this as part of their names. There are no current towns in Israel with this name. Would a split in the earth due to this earthquake reach as west as Europe, or as east as Afghanistan? Where do the innocent flee to? Only time will tell. The Lord shows up with heavenly saints who have died, and are now returning with Him.

The Lord takes dominion

Zec 14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the light shall not be clear, [nor] dark:

Zec 14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, [that] at evening time it shall happen, that it will be light.

*** The Lord comes in the evening, maybe about 6 pm, which is the beginning of the next day in Hebrew time. His appearance prevents sunset, and maintains the light of day. Interestingly, this would be the time in Jerusalem that most of rest of the world would naturally be awake. The only ones sleeping would be those within 3 hours of the Japan time zone. Scripture says that when the Lord returns, all eyes will be upon Him, and having most people awake at that time makes sense. Also, the sleeping world, who happen to live in the largest earthquake zone on earth, will definitely wake up.

Zec 14:8 And it shall be in that day, [that] living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former [eastern] sea, and half of them toward the hinder [western] sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

***The Lord Jesus (Yeshua), Son of God, will be King (Messiah), not man. NO ONE will rule except Him. There will be no earthly human king. There will be no 12th Imam who rules. GOD does not need anyone’s help. Man has ruined this planet with his stupidity and sinfulness. It is time for God to take over His own kingdom. He, unlike man, actually knows what he is doing. He restores the earth with fresh waters in a land thirsty for His presence. There is only one Lord, and only one name to bow before !!!

The Lord restores the Temple Mount

Zec 14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.

Zec 14:11 And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

*** Geba is north of Jerusalem and Rimmon is south. All this will become a large plain, instead of the hills that are there now. This is most likely to make way for the “New Jerusalem.”

There are special reasons for just certain coordinates of the city to be “raised up,” and inhabited. The coordinates do not include the entire old city, but about half of it. Recall in verse 2, half of the city went into captivity, and now it is being reclaimed. The tower of Hananeel was on the north wall, and the king’s winepresses were to the far south, outside the walls. This marked the north-south side of reclamation. Benjamin’s gate was also on the north wall, as it led to the territory of Benjamin. Benjamin Gate (Jeremiah 37:13; Jeremiah 38:7; Zechariah 14:10), located at the northernmost point on the east wall (perhaps identical with the (Miphkad) Gate of the Guard, Nehemiah 12:39). It is clear that the Lord is reclaiming the Temple Mount, and some surrounding area, since the other half is already free.

The other gates (blue dots *), called by various names, can be seen from these figures. Lions’ Gate (Hebrew: שער האריות‎, also Sheep Gate):

On a modern map, the reclaimed area looks like the map below.

The main conclusion here is that the mosque that is there now, and other Muslim sites, have to go. The Lord Messiah is taking back the temple mount, and making space for the new temple. Notice that he leaves the Christian (St. Ann’s church (1), monastery (3), Via Delarosa (5)) and Jewish sites inside the Muslim quarter alone. The Muslim quarter and temple Mount are what “goes into captivity.”

Where there was destruction, there will now be restoration and safety:

Zec 14:11 And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

The enemies of Israel are now destroyed in a plague. The Lord literally dissolves the flesh of the enemies, causing panic and death. Judah plunders the enemies.

Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

*** Many scholars think this plague is radiation from nuclear war. I remind people that the Lord does not need a bomb. He is more powerful than that, and can do this on His own. However, the effects may be the same.

Zec 14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.

*** This is mass panic for the enemies of Israel

Zec 14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

*** This is “pay back time” for all those who cheated Israel out of its land and possessions.

Zec 14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

The Lord now demands respect and worship from the enemies of Israel, who have to keep the Israel feasts.

Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

A Special warning to stubborn Egypt


Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Prosperity and holiness now that the enemies of Israel are defeated

Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD’S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Finally, there is NO more Arab occupation of the land, or Temple area.

Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

** there is no more mosque. There are no more Palestinians (those of Canaanite descent). There are no more Muslims. There is no more Islam.  There are no other religions, including fake Christians.  There is just the Lord, and He rules !!!!!

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38 Responses to “When God shows up”

  1. […] will God do about it, and which side will you be on? Click here for […]

  2. A question: considering that Zechariah’s apocalyptic and eschatological emphasis is aimed at his contemporaries and fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem (12:1-3. 14:1-2), the initial victory of Judah’s enemies (14:2), the Lord’s defense of Jerusalem (14:3-4), and the topographical changes in Judah (14:4-5), what does any of this have to do with contemporary 21st century geopolitics in the Middle East? Isn’t it anachronistic to read these current events back into Scripture as if Zechariah’s prophetic judgments were aimed at us today and not his original audience?

    I’m not sure why people equate the modern political nation-state of Israel with the biblical nation of Israel, especially since the church today is fulfilling their vocation as the covenant people of God.

    Scripture certainly does speak into our contemporary circumstances, but it does not reveal some hidden code of how current events will unfold- this is simply bad eschatology, flawed exegesis, and a distortion of what God was doing in and through the Prophets.

  3. Dear David,

    From the descriptions that Zechariah gives, I do not see how it applies to biblical Israel at all. It has to be for the current reborn Israel. God did say he would return a remnant to Israel in the last days.

    When, for example, did ALL nations ever come against Israel in the biblical past? When was it divided in half in bible times? When did the Lord ever step on on the Mt of Olives before, and create an earthquake so huge that it created the geological changes that are described?

    God can still have a relationship with Israel, even though He has the church. The two relationships are different.

    see these posts also- more details

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/zionism-man%E2%80%99s-idea-or-god%E2%80%99s-plan/

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/earthquake-pattern-increasing-for-jerusalem-%E2%80%93-end-times/

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/4-horses-%E2%80%93-4-horns-%E2%80%93-4-beasts-of-zechariah-and-revelation/

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/jewish-return-to-israel-in-end-times/

    https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/anti-zionism-roman-and-christian-western-roots/

    blessings
    marianne

    • Could it be that this return of Jesus to set foot on the mount of Olives occurs only AFTER the 1000 years in heaven? (Rev. 20 and 21) Remember, he doesn’t set foot on the earth at his second coming ” then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR ” (1 Thess 4:17). Also, in John 14:1-3 we know that we will be going to heaven at his second coming: “In my Father’s house are many mansions: …..and if I GO and prepare a place for you, I will COME AGAIN, and RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF; THAT WHERE I AM, there ye may be also”. (is one reference anyway). Sorry about the capitals, I don’t know how to underline or otherwise emphasize certain words in this reply….:-)

      • hi Maggie

        My impression is that the 1000 years occurred here on earth, after a cleanup period from the tribulation.

        Also that when we meet him in the air, it is only to remove us from the destruction that is happening on earth, to remove the wicked.

        • By the way, in some of my replies, I think i may have given my wrong website address. I think it’s johnsonjj.blogspot.com without any @! Sorry about that.
          In reading Rev 21, I got the impression that the holy city comes down out of heaven at the END of the 1000 years – eg: verse 2 says John saw the holy city coming down out of heaven and then in verse 5 he says “behold i make all things new” etc. That makes me think it’s AFTER the 1000 years mentioned in Rev 20. And Satan, during that time is bound (figuratively) on the destroyed earth. There’s a second resurrection mentioned in 20:5 where it says “the rest of the dead” (meaning the wicked) “lived not again until the thousand years were finished”. And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be released from his “prison” (v.7) and the wicked will be resurrected (the 2nd resurrection). Then the city (which is told as descending out of heaven in chapter 21 again) is surrounded by the wicked and then the wicked are destroyed by fire (it “devoured them” 20:v. 9 – the second death, v.6). Sometimes the chronology is a bit confusing….especially because Revelation has a habit of jumping around quite a bit, it seems!! I just always understood the city as coming out of heaven at the end of the 1000 years, as John was shown in vision how it was descending out of heaven after chap. 20. Are things still jumping around between these two chapters?

  4. Marianne,

    Thanks for your thoughts here. I appreciate your willingness to engage in civil dialogue. Without parsing the particulars of Zechariah (or Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation, etc), I think I should probably explain some bigger background issues that influence my perspective when it comes to prophetic interpretation.

    I grew up as a conservative Southern Baptist, and when I decided to attend seminary to “go into the ministry,” many in my family were supportive of Dallas Theological Seminary, the stalwart source of dispensational theology in America. I ended up attending Regent College in Vancouver, BC, and soon encountered that the dispensational views (which you espouse) did not really “hold their ground” in the larger, historic, orthodox Christian tradition as held and supported by ecumenical pastors, scholars, and practitioners from around the world.

    This was quite a shock to my system and I spent some time in denial before deciding to research it myself in my masters thesis. It was an eye-opening experience to research the roots of dispensationalism/fundamentalism in America, and it has forever changed the way I view these larger questions- how should we interpret biblical prophecy? What is the relationship between Israel and the church? Who are the “chosen people” of God today?

    The perspectives you offer, rooted in the dispensational tradition, are based on a particular interpretive method that is, in my view and the view of mainstream, orthodox Christian scholarship, a slight aberration from what many would consider faithful Biblical exegesis that takes the full weight of historical, grammatical, cultural, lexicographical, and literary context into consideration. It is not the case at all that dispensationalism was/is some sort of heresy- it is merely a particular method developed in early 20th century America that has since undergone radical changes and revisions (even at DTS) to help return to the center of the orthodox Christian faith.

    I share this larger picture merely because debating the specifics of apocalyptic/eschatological texts will never get anywhere unless we’re able to look more critically at our hermeneutical lens, or the way we interpret. I think if you do the research on your own, though dispensationalism has some merits and proponents, you will find that its credibility is quickly fading as more become aware of the particular cultural circumstances that shaped it biases.

    I’m not sure if any of this makes sense or not, but I hope you will consider the possibility that your entire eschatological worldview has been based on particular assumptions, few of which are rooted in a truly faithful exegetical method.

    I don’t say any of this to belittle or diminish you, your contribution to this blog, or your personal faith- I respect what you are trying to do here. I merely wanted to share my own process of discovery in the hopes that others might broaden their perspective on this area of study.

    Peace to you,
    David

    • Good point, David. Dispensationalism doesn’t seem to make good sense at all and comes with a whole set of its own problems. I think it was originally developed to propose a particular theory or veil something else it didn’t want to accept. Anyway, I’d love to read your thesis on this.

  5. Hi David,

    I accept that you have different views. Many people do. Take a look at the previous post where I asked about how certain prophesies would apply to the church, instead of Israel. An excerpt is listed below.

    What would your answers be:?

    1. “When, for example, did ALL nations ever come against Israel in the biblical past?” – are you saying that all nations will come against the church instead?

    2. “When was it (Jerusalem) divided in half in bible times?” – how will the church be divided in half? and what is the proof?

    3. “When did the Lord ever step on on the Mt of Olives before, and create an earthquake so huge that it created the geological changes that are described?” – how does a predicted earthquake in Jerusalem have anything to do with the church?

    blessings
    marianne

  6. It’s true there are different views, but not all views can be equally correct, no? I explained what I did to show how debating the specifics (as you’d like to) can be fruitless if your interpretive lens is skewed. For example, if you interpret each verse with a wooden literalism, I can see how your questions make sense. But if you did some homework on “the Day of the Lord” you might find that this phrase is used throughout the Prophets and does not necessarily refer to one specific point in time, and instead can be used fluidly as a reference to the coming judgment of YHWH at any time.

    Never did I intend to imply that these prophecies were aimed at the church instead of Israel, but I did say that “Zechariah’s apocalyptic and eschatological emphasis is aimed at his contemporaries and fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem (12:1-3. 14:1-2), the initial victory of Judah’s enemies (14:2), the Lord’s defense of Jerusalem (14:3-4), and the topographical changes in Judah (14:4-5).”

    Essentially, many scholars argue that this passage is referencing the Roman siege of Jerusalem around 70BC and the aftermath of its destruction. Why would Zechariah record these words only to be hidden away until the 21st century? Because he didn’t; he intended for them to be fulfilled in Jerusalem’s impending destruction, as they were.

    Your insistence on reading “all nations” and “half the city” and “stepping on the Mount of Olives” literally does not do justice to the author’s intent; apocalyptic literature was never meant to be read this way, and the original audience would never have interpreted it this way, either. The description is figurative and allegorical, with an emphasis on the despair of Jerusalem’s destruction and the theophany of God’s redeeming grace for his chosen people.

    But again, we could debate this around and around, but you would continue to give the dispensational view, and I would quote the libraries of commentaries that are based on historical, literary, and grammatical exegesis. This, again, is why I attempted to preface the interpretive questions with the larger hermeneutical context.

    For me, a key is really understanding genre, and since apocalyptic literature no longer exists, we have a hard time interpreting correctly. People read Revelation and scratch their heads because they do not understand it is simultaneously an epistle, prophetic, and apocalyptic all at once. These genres guide the exegesis, and prevent the interpretation from drifting all over the place, particularly into the strange territory we end up in when we use only literalism.

    This exegetical method is not some sort of strange novelty for scholars; it really is just the process by which we read the scriptures rightly. I’m just repeating what was taught to me by Gordon Fee, Bruce Waltke, and other translators on the CBT who are responsible for the Bible you’re likely reading in English, so you’re free to debate them if you’d like; their scholarship is well documented.

    I’m running out of time, but I hope I’ve made some sense and that this has been offered graciously- something that can often get lost in the length. Peace.

  7. HI david,

    As you say you cannot find anything in my reasoning to believe my perspective, I have the same problem in reverse. I find your comments too general. The reasoning seems to be you just do not believe something, even if there is no specific reason for it, since specifics are irrelevant.

    I think you are saying that everything written is just symbolic, and not to be interpreted literally. Looking at the life of Jesus, if this reasoning is also applied to his life and ministry, everything he did was just symbolic as well, and he really did not die on the cross, because that is just a literal detail, and he gave no specific instructions to his disciples, since he was part of a certain genre. Jesus also made specific comments, with details. Are we to ignore these also? The view seems to be that the Bible is full of meaningless details. If this is true, then there is no reason to study the Bible, since none of them matter, and the content has no real interpretation. ?????

    blessings
    marianne

  8. David and Marianne:

    Thank you both for your comments. My question to you David stems from you writing:

    I’m not sure why people equate the modern political nation-state of Israel with the biblical nation of Israel, especially since the church today is fulfilling their vocation as the covenant people of God.”

    Does this mean you beleive in replacement theology? I dont want to debunk it with scripture until you answer the question, but if you do, that would explain a lot of your thoughts (to me at least).

    I dont think they you are saying that all of Gods word is symbolic, or at least I pray youre not saying that. I beleive there are many cases of symbolism in His word, and that they are used because of their longevity. However, symbolism is also used for specific purposes to communicate to the readers of that day, as well as modern day readers. Johns use of symbolism in Revelation is a terrific example of symbolism that not only protected himself and his readers from Roman authority but which effectively communicates to you and me.

    Isnt is possible that the prophets of the OT, like Zechariah, were using this same manner and were inspired by God to effectively communicate throughout the generations.

    David you ask : “Why would Zechariah record these words only to be hidden away until the 21st century?” Using your same logic, and your pretense that these words were only written for the Jews in the first century, I could ask why he wrote them six centuries prior to the events unfolfing.

    I guess I need to know (specifically) what assumptions you refer to when writing: “consider the possibility that your entire eschatological worldview has been based on particular assumptions”.

    This may go right back to replacement theology.

    In Him

  9. Marianne,

    Once again, I think we’re approaching the end of this discussion. I’m sorry my long, specific, theological explanations of biblical interpretation have been received as “too general,” though I’ve referenced verse citations, historical occurrences, literary nuances, and contextual analysis.

    No where did I say that “all scripture” is just some vague mess of symbolism. Believe me, I teach theology in an accredited university for a living, and have taken enough seminary courses in my time to distinguish between the genre of OT prophetic oracles, and the accounts of Jesus and the disciples in the Gospels.

    Of course there is much in scripture that is intended to be taken literally. When narrative accounts describe Jesus going to this city, or that lake, etc- of course this is to be read literally. When he says “blessed are the poor and peacemakers” in the sermon on the mount, of course he is teaching with authority, not just waxing poetic about ethics. Of course when the gospel accounts describe the history of the passion and when the apostles quote the Pentateuch and the Prophets to the early church in the book of Acts, these are “literal” accounts.

    So please, if you wouldn’t mind, do not insult me by implying that I espouse some sort of wishy-washy relativism where “nothing matters.” On the contrary, I have committed my life to the truth of the scriptures and work tirelessly in both the local church and Christian academia to further the kingdom of God. I do not question your commitment to your faith, so please do not insult mine with these ridiculous suggestions- I am not sure how you get from the symbolic interpretation of many apocalyptic texts to “Jesus did not really die on the cross,” unless you really have understood nothing I have said.

    So for the last time, the only way to be consistent with interpreting scripture is to do faithful, biblical EXEGESIS (Greek, meaning “to lead out of”). This means you read the Psalms differently than you read Genesis, and you do not read Isaiah like you read Judges, Chronicles, or the Epistles for that matter. I would hope that you already employ this reasoning, and are not looking for genealogies in poetry or hidden symbolism in pure descriptive narrative.

    Therefore, Zechariah, like the book of Revelation, has to be interpreted carefully because not *everything* in it is to be interpreted with cold, distant, rational literalism. Entire libraries are written about what I mean by “literalism,” but there is no space for that here. This does not discount its value and authority as holy scripture; it merely guides the process of interpretation by first asking the exegetical questions of how this text would have been first understood by its original audience.

    You will likely dismiss all of this explanation as “too general” or “too complex” or “too something else,” and perhaps I have done a poor job of explaining. If so, I apologize. Regardless, I think I’ve said what I wanted to say and will sign off for now.

    I hope that if you truly take your commitment to scripture seriously, as I do, and you want to structure your life around the message and authority of the gospel, as I do, then you will investigate the arguments I have made here and in previous posts.

    Peace to you,
    David

  10. Bret,

    I’m sorry you’re joining in as I’m on my way out, but very briefly, the theory and language of “replacement theology” is right out of the dispensational textbook, and I don’t have time to explain all my “eschatalogical assumptions” on this blog. Let’s just say I’ve done my research on eschatology in all its forms, and remain committed to an orthodox understanding of the parousia, but do not buy into the classic dispensational premillenialism espoused here.

    This really is a debate that’s been held for decades, and dispensationalism is frankly on its way out. Even its creators who built it up out of Dallas Theological Seminary have, since the late 1980s, made the compromises of “progressive dispensationalism” (thanks to people like Darrell Bock), that lean towards replacement theology to such a degree that there no longer seems to be a need to distinguish between dispensational eschatology and classic, reformed/covenantal eschatology. Those are not perfect categories (I’m generalizing here), but that’s the two sentence version.

    My masters thesis was a critique of dispensational ecclesiology (since I grew up in that tradition), but unless you want to read over a hundred pages of a boring thesis, I don’t have much more time to explain.

    Lastly, I apologize if any of this has been divisive or accusatory- that has not been my intent. For better or worse, this is all very personal to me, and at times this type of discussion can be tiring or frustrating. I’ve been having it for years with my friends from DTS!

    All that said, I hope you and Marianne (and others) will continue in your commitment to kingdom work, and there is much more to be done in the world than debate these nuances on blogs!

    Peace,
    David

  11. Amen to that David

  12. […] on a very (in my opinion) flawed view of black liberation theology and also a particular look at apocalyptic interpretation, both of which, in the larger scheme of things, are starting to fade in signifiance as i back away […]

  13. David,

    I just go by what the bible says. The criteria for salvation is not doctrinal preciseness. It is a humble and contrite heart.

    blessings
    marianne

  14. David,

    The best guide for evaluation of the scriptures is the holy spirit. I only read the bible one way, with His help. I think details are there for a reason, and I enjoy meditating on them, as well as all scripture, looking for general concepts as well as specifics.

    blessings
    marianne

  15. Bret and David,

    I am not sure either how people come to the conclusion that somehow the Jews of bible times and the modern Jews are not related. One is an ancestor of the other. They can do DNA testing now and prove this. The modern state of Israel is just the prophesied remnant coming home. The Jews are back in their homeland, just as the lord promised would happen in the last days. God always has reasons for what he does. The Jews of today are just as Jewish as the Jews of bible times. Israel is more than a political state. It is a religious state, based on Torah. Their own flag demonstrates this. It is a tallit (prayer shawl) with the star of David in the middle.

    I also believe that sometimes scripture is symbolic, but also other times is to be take very literally. It is obvious, for example that a “bear” would not conquer other kingdoms. The bear represented Medo-persia in the book of Daniel. But if the text actually indicates in the “last days,” then refers to Israel, then I would expect the prophecy to be about Israel, and not the church.

    blessings
    marianne

  16. Bret, David, and Marianne,
    I have learned so much by this ongoing discussion, and I want to say that I appreciate all of your contributions to this subject. I am educated only in the business world, but I do like to read my Bible and do research on my own when I can. My point is that I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, but left the Catholic church at around age 21 because I felt like something was missing. Was I ever right in that assessment. The way I read my bible is that all who call on the Name of Jesus are saved, and there is no other way to go to heaven but by a personal relationship with Jesus. JR

  17. Thank you , JR

    You have always been a valuable contribution to this website. I thank you for all your comments over time. You are a great blessing and source of wisdom for others.

    blessings
    marianne

  18. Marianne,

    I have read the comments posted on this blog; I am not a biblical scholar. I do not know everything that there is to know about biblical history or apocalyptic literature. I am a Methodist and I have been taught certain kinds of doctrine that are similar, in theory, to the education that David was trained in and now teaches. I bless him for his encouragement to you to continue your kingdom work and agree that it is unproductive to dwell on these nuances. I, like David, in most of my Bible studies, have learned that history, culture and tradition must be accounted for when reading specific books of the Bible. There have been times in my life when I have tried to discuss the cultural influences of a period with an individual and have hit a rock wall. That is all moot. I agree that is important to be informed; it is important to be educated; but, it is also important to listen for the guiding voice of the Holy Spirit so that you are not deceived or lead astray. Jesus Christ is my personal savior; I have a personal relationship with Him. The Holy Spirit dwells in my heart. When I am unclear in my life, or in my studies, I turn to Him for counsel. I think that there is a great deal of “fear” involving the study of eschatology and apocalyptic literature in the Bible. I was taught, in church, that the Book of Revelations is symbolic literature, but inside of my heart, I believe that it is a warning to us of things to come. I have studied Daniel and Revelations together and understand all of the millinealistic viewpoints. None of them matter to me; in the end, it isn’t going to matter at all because I know that Jesus Christ is coming back and this time, He’ll come back as the Messiah warrior that the Jews were looking for 2000 years ago. I believe that the Bible is God breathed. I believe that God is in control and that His Word is ETERNAL, and in my mind, that means that it applies to EVERY generation. Christ is my salvation and in Him, I have no fear of what is to come. I’ve been called narrow minded and uninformed. It doesn’t matter; the Lord has given me insight and wisdom too many times in too many situations for me to worry about what others think of me. I know the voice of my Master; His Spirit dwells in me. Bless you for your hard work, sister. I enjoy reading your posts and encourage you to keep fighting the good fight.

    In Christ, Cindy T.

  19. Hi Cindy,

    I thank you for your insights and devotion to the Lord. The Word of God is wonderful to study !! While some people do dwell on nuances and eschatology to instill fear, my objective is actually the opposite. I want to share how beautiful and detailed God’s plan is for us, the hope that is there, and how exciting and interesting these details are. The beauty to me is in the details, and as each detail is fulfilled in prophecy, it confirms the Bible as God’s true Word. No other “holy book” can make this claim. 🙂

    Each post is written to make people think about things they may have not considered before. Maybe I am right, and maybe I am wrong in a certain interpretation. But, seeking to solve what seems to be a mystery in God’s Word is a challenge, and it is actually fun. I want people to see that reading the Bible is fun and interesting, and not dull. I try to end on an encouraging note. Interpretations may vary, sometimes, as there appears to be layers of meanings in scripture, and more than one view may be correct, at the same time. That is why I would never block or delete someone who sees things differently. I want people to read all the views.

    I am sure some things in scripture are symbolic, some things are influenced by culture, and some things really are what they say they are. It is my view that God is not finished with natural Israel, and he has them in mind for salvation, as well as other unsaved peoples. He makes a point in prophecy to return to Israel, instead of somewhere else, so there must be a reason. Because of past covenants with them, He may deal with them differently than He would gentiles.

    I do see some modern events as fulfilling certain prophecies, and I think this is wonderful. For example, I am waiting for the moment when Jesus returns, and steps down on the Mt of Olives, and stops the war that mankind started. Just think, the terrorists are finally defeated. To me, the more prophesies that are fulfilled, the closer the return of Jesus is.

    These are interesting times, and we can depend on the Bible for truth in how to interpret our lives in any age. May God bless you in your walk with the Lord.

    blessings always,
    marianne

  20. You wrote lots of things, and I’m trying to read all the words in one page, but I found that there’s too much words, I like pictures, can you put more pictures sometimes? In your blog?

  21. Hi Marianne,

    Striking how far off the subject of ‘When God Shows up’ everyone went! Especially after so much research for your post.
    No one addressed the Apocalypse at all, but rather discussed whether the Scriptures should be taken literally or not.
    Master degrees certainly do not add any wisdom to the carnally minded.
    And it is beyond me how this individual can proclaim himself a teacher.
    Certainly not professor material nor master material!
    Just made my head spin!
    Jessicas’ blog is more intelligible than his.

    • Hi Abigail

      I let everyone speak their own opinion. It is a free site. This encourages discussion. True, wisdom does not always come with a Master’s degree. I have one myself. It is the application of knowledge that is important. Jessica is a smart 13 year old. 🙂

      • Jessica has wisdom, and the only other god that showed up here is ‘ego’.
        I know that true wisdom does not come with master degrees no matter if you have one or several, but it does take a Master to understand what will be when God shows up.
        Just my perspective.

  22. A. Somehow I can’t help but feel that Jessica and marianne have a pre-existing connection.

    B. To be completely honest, a lot of those ‘propechies’ sound like a whole lot of wishful thinking by a habitually downtrodden people. Sorry, but… if the shoe fits, wear it, lol. (Yes, I’m admittedly ‘ignorant’ about these things… I *have* been around the block a few times tho… and I’ve heard this story before.) I hate to say it, but I have a really hard time reconcilling people that speak of god’s ‘wrath’ or ‘warrior’-like qualities.
    Sounds like frightened children wagging a finger, warning that daddy will be angry when he finds out how you’ve abused his specially chosen favorite sons. In one breath it’s ‘God is love’, then in the next, he’s a ‘jealous and wrathful god’. Ever ask yourself why god *would* choose a ‘special’ people to be his private flock? (Why even have the rest of us?) And why does it just *happen* to be the people who were documenting said revelation? I mean seriously… Did we all just fall off the spiritual turnip-truck? This is all just a bunch of whining made by perpetual refugees, now lauded to ‘revelations of prophecy’.

    (P.S. America (and by proxy, the larger west) will never attack isreal to ‘secure oil interests’. This, to me, is an untenable and wholely unrealistic scenario. And let’s remember, that, at that time the mediterranean was the ‘whole world’)

    C. This notion (the over-arching fundamental of christianity) that some all-absolving salvation comes through ritualistic fealty to a man (yes, I’m referring to jesus). I mean… haven’t we all read the first commandment? I know, I know! The cross CANT be a golden calf… because through a prestidigitation of irrational logic, jesus IS god. An impliment of torture… really? Am I to believe that god wants us to be in a constant state of pity for him? To feel guilt at all times? And why? So that I can be absolved of sins I didn’t commit? He had to kill himself? really? It seems to me that when jesus asked god ‘why have you forsaken me?’… it wasn’t a metaphor. Jesus was a great man. The torah and the bible and the quran are great books of wisdom. That being said… I really don’t think you are supposed to take it so literally. Nor do I believe that we are supposed to heed every single word without question, as though it was penned by god himself. As far as I can tell, god only wrote ten sentences directly (or was it 15? lol). The rest? take with a grain of a pillar of salt.

    I’m (cynically so) sure that I will be written off here as some agnostic or even atheistic crackpot. Be that as it may, perhaps I’ve given you all some food for thought. Know however, that my assumption is to be rebutted (if at all) by a steady stream of regurgitated talking points laid out by whatever sect it is that you happen to belong to.

    Do try to remember tho… that god loves us all… even if we’re arabs or greeks or anglos or afrikans or w/e the hell else you are. He doesn’t rejoice in ‘the crushing of enemies’ or making war or anything of that ilk. Just listen to yourself. He’d be sad for your desire to see harm come to any.

    We’re all just children. Even prophets.

  23. jonny

    A. Jessica and I have no pre-existing connection. She is a young girl from another country who visits the site.

    B. Would you describe the legal system in America as “executing wrath” or is it just executing justice? The answer is justice. It may seem like wrath to criminals, but it is justice for the victims. If someone commits a mass murder, it is justice to put him away or have him put to death for his crimes. The justice system of God is also righteous, and is done objectively, without regard to who we are, and it will punish the wicked, and reward the innocent. Those that are obedient to God do not see him as mean, but as someone who protects them.

    We do not need oil from overseas. We have plenty. But the democrats will not let us drill for it.

    C. We do not pit Jesus for dying. The torture he endured was what we would have endured if we were punished for our sins. As people who break the law, we deserved to be punished. But as an act of love, he substituted himself, to spare us. We love him for this, and are grateful. The “forsaken” comment was a quote from Psalm 22, which was prophetic, in describing the suffering of the Messiah for all people:

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Psa&c=22&v=1&t=KJV#1

    True, God loves all of us, but not all of “us” love him. Many reject God and disobey him, and reject Jesus as well. They will not enter heaven when they die. Why? Because they have chosen this for themselves.

  24. Well, first let me say, thank you for the ‘prophecied’ talking points! =D (Did you REALLY say ‘the dems wont let us drill’? Thank you for filling my belly-laugh quota of the week)

    A. So you and jessica have never corresponded or chatted or replyd to each other’s posts? i.e.: She’s not your little ‘kids say the darndest things’ buddy who follows your posts and replies ‘innocently’ in the manner that only an ignorant child can? lol

    B. Ok, first off, I fail to understand how being a ‘jealous and wrathful god’ (1st commandment) equates to ‘justice’? Let’s start with justice… What is just and right to you? Is it the same for everyone? You apparently see the US justice system as ‘righteous’? I’m not saying it isn’t fair, but you referrence god’s justice as ‘also righteous’. This seems a little immodest at the least and blasphemous at best. God’s justice is his and his alone, he has made this quite clear. It’s ways are not be understood by us nor SOUGHT by us (that’s key). Would you cheer giddily while watching a ‘mass-murderer’ get a lethal injection? Is the sin of delight at the suffering of others lesser than that of causing it? Don’t you see? You can’t justify bloodlust and hatred by simply choosing the right target to hate. Hate all you want, wish for destruction and suffering of ‘Isreal’s enemies’ all you want, deal out ‘justice’ all you want. I’m pretty sure I wont be seeing you in heaven if you continue to walk that path. A true believer doesn’t need retribution or justice, only forgiveness. A true believer doesn’t fear the enemies of anyone. You’d do well to remember that.

    As a corollary… is the IDF soldier who runs over a grandmothers in thier shanty shacks with a bulldozer, dealing out god’s justice? Is the young isreali mother watching her grade-school kids smashing palastinian storefronts (crystalnacht anyone??? It’s really amazing how hypocritical people can be) doing ‘God’s work’?

    C. Again with the talking points, lol. Let’s see if Ive got this straight. God came here in the form of a man. Then, in order to forgive us of sins we haven’t commited (I’m talking original here), he had to kill himself. He couldn’t just forgive us? Or even have a conversation with himself about it? I don’t understand how if god is all powerful, he required a blood sacrifice of himself in order to allow himself to forgive us for things we haven’t done. Forgive me if I say that’s a giant load of fertilizer. Let me reiterate (sorry if that word is to big for your wittwe bwain jessy) THOU SHALL WORSHIP NO GODS BEFORE ME AND PRAY BEFORE NO FALSE IDOLATRY. I fail to see how a man claiming to BE god himself, nullifies that.

    Real quick closing thought:
    If we have free will and can choose our destinies… then how can ‘prophets’ tell us what will unfold in the future? You can either have free will influencing a mutable future or you have god’s knowledge of every moment of eternity set in stone. Pick one, because you can’t have both. Oh, I KNOW, they choose to turn away from god on their own… but… if he knew they were going to before they did… how could they have done anything else? lol, think about it.

    Good luck, perhaps all you ‘humble’, ‘god-fearing’ folks can see fit to FORGIVE my ignorance rather than seek JUSTICE for it.

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

    have a good one.

  25. Oh and just for some irony, ‘Drill baby drill’ originated from a chant that was shouted while rioters destroyed chicago, shouting ‘Burn baby burn’. Good example to follow?

    • jonny

      So you do not believe anything you are told. This is expected of unbelievers. You are spiritually blind.

      God is a merciful God. He does not want any to perish, and forgives more than people repent. He has rules and guidelines for our our benefit, and protection. He is a righteous judge, and does not enjoy punishing anyone. If people rebel, it is their choice.

      God hates sin. He does not hate people. However, if the people are hateful, and evil, then he will send them to hell, where they belong.

      I guess it is ok for you that godless barbaric Palestinians blow up their own children because they are so bloodthirsty for jewish blood. At least the Israelis act to protect their children, and care for them. The Israelis are defending themselves, and most of the deaths of Palestinians are caused by other Palestinians, or they are suicides. The people are mentally ill.

      Prophets can only tell certain things about the future. They get their information from God and He does not tell them everything. Hell and heaven is our choice.

      • Hi Marianne,

        God declares from the beginning what will be …
        Gen 3:15
        And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
        Jam 4:4
        Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

        The enemies of The Lord already have their fate ‘destiny’ mapped out
        By God Himself.

        The Prophets of The Lord speaks The word in their mouth given to them by God.

  26. This seemed to be the most appropriate place to tell what happened to me today, for G-d definitely did “show up” for me this afternoon.

    On my way back from a meeting, I was driving about 70mph on a very busy 4 lane interstate when my tire blew. I was terrified, for I didn’t know how I was going to get over to the side lane because of all the cars around me going faster then I was. When I looked in my rear view mirror to see how I was going to cross over 3 lanes, it was literally as if G-d had “parted the red sea”…..LOL

    At the very moment that I needed to cross lanes to get to safety all the lanes were EMPTY! I could see the cars behind me several feet back as if they were all slowing down and most likely they were because of what had just happened but the lanes were CLEAR none the less and at the VERY MOMENT I needed them to be.

    As I made it safely to the side line I began to panic. The one person that I always called when something like this happened was no longer here-my father.

    I did send a text to my co-worker whom I was following and let her know what happened. She said she was turning around to help me change my tire. How awesome is that!

    When I got out of my car to take a look I couldn’t believe what I saw-the front grill of my car was torn half way off while the passenger side door looked like someone hit it. My tire of course was hanging off the rim. So much for changing the tire!!

    I got back in my car and started to cry. The cars now were flying by me on the interstate and I was shaken to say the least. I honestly didn’t know what to do. I then saw a car pull behind me to help; then a police car pulled over as well.

    Within minutes of my panic and feeling very alone and frightened I had 3 people at my side with a police officer telling me he would take care of everything. He called the tow service and explained to me everything I needed to do. Come to find out, he too is a Christian.

    I am still a bit shaken over what happened today and simply in shock I guess over how everything just happened so quickly and safely. I was never alone more then a few minutes. I was able to safely get my car off the interstate crossing 3 lanes and never lost control of the car either….that never occurred to me until hours later. And I was brought safely home!

    I totally recognize G-d’s intervention today, no doubt!! And I give HIM all the GLORY and PRAISE and gazillion thank yous for being there!

    In that moment that the reality of my earthly father’s absence sunk in, my Heavenly Father stepped in so quickly as if to say “I AM here”!

    I love you G-d-My Father-My ever present help in trouble! There are simply no words for my gratitude.xoxo

    • hi lyndsey

      That is totally awesome. Yes, he is closer than we all think, and moves faster than the cars behind us!

      • Yes He does!! It was just incredible Marianne! If you knew this interstate-285-you would know that you know what a miracle that was that “all of a sudden” there were no cars at the VERY MOMENT I had to cross over! And as soon as I crossed over they all “appeared” and in mass numbers and SPEED! WOW WOW WOW 🙂

        I can honestly say that if G-d had not intervened I would be headlines right now!!!

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