Days of Elijah
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These appear to be times of great trial and danger. Wars, economic collapse, evil, enemies, and natural disasters. How do we respond?
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With JOY !
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These are the last days. Do not be afraid.
End time prophecies are being fulfilled.
Nations are aligned for good and evil.
The Final Battle is coming.
And the Lord of Hosts will come and win the battle.
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He is coming back!
He is coming back!
He is coming back!
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Look up!
He is coming back!
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Do not give up, whatever your battle.
As things get worse, rejoice.
As things get harder, be thankful.
As things get more dangerous, feel the security of God’s promises.
As things become more evil, declare the goodness of God.
As things get darker, let the light of God shine through you.
As things try to make you weaker, declare the strength of God.
When defeat seems real, declare victory, in Jesus name.
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Remember, in Elijah’s last days, his last battle was with a fallen, sinful nation of Israel, 500 prophets of Baal, and the Queen Jezebel.
Exhausted from spiritual battle, he took refuge, and collapsed near a stream.
God nurtured him, provided for the future, and then took him to heaven!
He was raptured!
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These are the days of Elijah!
Heaven Awaits 
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Days of Elijah « Heaven Awaits said this on August 22, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Marianne, Thank you for your encouraging words! I should print that out and stick it on my forehead! Collapsing by a stream is what I feel like sometimes. I’m sure many others do at times too.. Needed some cheerful cheering on! God keeps HIS promises so, yes! Count it all joy!..JOY to the LORD! HE is coming back. Oh thank YOU LORD… : ) elle
Strength and volume is needed to hear this music …
Hear so you can see!
Awesome…
To God Almighty be ALL the Glory!
AbigaIl, So powerful! Wel done. All power, all glory, is the Lord’s. Thanks, elle
Dear Elle,
Great is The One true God who dwells in us!
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Again Jesus says: ‘ALL Power is given unto me in heaven and in earth’
This is what needs to be screamed through out the earth!
Dear Abigail, AMEN! How much we love our God! Blessings…Elle
Jesus says : All power not some but ALL power is given unto me.
Therefore He is God.
He is the first and the last.
He is The Great I am.
He is the Alpha and Omega.
He is The God of Israel.
He is God.
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.
And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].
Isaiah 44:6,7 and 8
Marianne,
That is very encouraging!
What seems to amaze me, that Elijah could defeat 500 prophets of Baal in the open battle, but was careful enough to flee away from Jezebel – just shows how much cunning and deceiving witch she was.
‘When your luck is batting zero, get your chin up
off the floor. Mister you can be a hero, you can
open any door. There’s nothing to it but to do it!
You got to have heart! Miles and miles and miles
of heart! When the odds are saying you’ll never
win, that’s when your grin should start!’
~ Damn Yankees!
Glory be to God, give God the glory!
Behold He comes riding …
April 2009
Very interesting.. reminds me of August 2nd evening when we were on the way home from middle of nowhere in Washington… closing on to home.. We were very very exhausted but I am only one who was unable to sleep for third day straight.. feeling high and alert…
Behold I see oddest thing was… the mirror on the passenger’s door… I saw and thought there was a man riding on our car… and I double checked.. found the man riding on the black horse… I just watched… bewildered for a moment but realized I was warned to keep an eye out…
Then I look out at the feild.. tall trees does NOT look like normal trees to me at all.. but end up shape of men or people.. turning their heads.. letting me know that I am not dreaming… I was very much awake but exhausted.. then I saw again another man on the red horse thru the mirror again.. just running aside along with us.. I just to blink my eyes to confirm that.. still there.. then he just stopped his horse… and raised his arm upward… abid me good bye since we are hitting onto highway. I just sat back.. watching everything unfolding.. wondering what was all about… Never up close and personal like that…
Sorry that I did not share that part.. just didn’t think about it until this morning… Just letting you know what I have seen with my very own eyes.. fully awake.. Was I scared ? No… surprised.. yup.. but those trees … honestly I cannot look at the trees the same anymore after what I have seen.
Just sharing 🙂 Because of those riding in that youtube just reminded me.. since above video was daytime.. I saw was nighttime.. very clear… Wish I had bring that video LOL.
Blessings
hi Tamera
It seems like you were being shown that either the black and red horses are just past, or they are about to begin, one right after the other.
Marianne,
Black and red horses are in past already after August 2nd.. So other one is coming and fast. I do not know which one is coming.. Ahhh… Death is coming.. with sickly color looking horse.. like very very pale and faintly green in it…. I wouldn’t be surprised because I heard that Obama is now telling that 90,000 people have died from swine flu shots.. and now he demands that all children 6 years and older along with senior people plus people with different kind of dieases are required to have H1N1 shots…
And much more to come.. I do not know what.. but it will be much more. I will keep updating you if any messages come to me through God Almighty.. I will let you know right away. 🙂
Blessings.
Remember this …
Num 10:9 And if ye go to war in your land against the enemy that oppresseth you, then ye shall blow an alarm with the trumpets; and ye shall be remembered before the LORD your God, and ye shall be saved from your enemies.
This you must do.
There are guidelines in Scriptures as to how to vanquish your enemy.
Search these out and you may be surprised …
Dear Abigail, Could you give us some scriptures? Would greatly appreciate it! Thanks, Elle
I have found the war scroll for you Elle and here is the link to the eschatological war.
Hope you enjoy this reading.
I think that the sons of darkness will be hard to fight without the armies of God.
http://www.zyworld.com/answersquestions/Qumran/warscroll.htm
This is a depiction of Armageddon in the final battle.
I’m adding this here in case you are not familiar with this text.
Abigail,
I like this one:
“In three lots the Sons of Light shall stand firm so as to strike a blow at wickedness, and in three the army of Belial shall strengthen themselves so as to force the retreat of the forces i4[of Light. And when the] banners of the infantry cause their hearts to melt, then the strength of God will strengthen the he[arts of the Sons of Light.]”
Fighting without trusting in God will be like bringing the knife into a gunbattle…sorcery was never as strong as it is in our time, they literally have access to everything – including innermost parts of the brain, the only thing they don’t have access to – is soul created in the image of God.
In the seventh lot : the great hand of God shall overcome [Belial and al]l the angels of his dominion, and all the men of [his forces shall be destroyed forever].
True Gavriel and there is a reason that your soul is created in His image.
Whoever sees hints in verses of the Bible and of our Sages, regarding his own name and mission, is obligated to fortify himself with them with all his strength and desire, for this is the reason he was created, and this is why his soul came to this world, the world of making.
Isa 56:5
Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/index.htm
the trumpets should be silver … and sound resembles the following (not perfect) …
I couldn’t find anything better yet…
notice that there are to be 2 silver trumpets in numbers 10
We will start with this tonight since I am tired …
I will post tomorrow MUCH more!!
abigail
you mean this?
Rev 12:7
¶
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
There are seven thunders who uttered their voices before the Throne of God in Johns’ vision.
Of these thunders the church knows nothing of.
Yet God sealed what the seven thunders said for His purpose.
Now last night I had an open vision. (August 25/09)
I was wide awake and couldn’t sleep.
My spirit was agitated as it is been for the last fourteen months.
With moaning and with groaning and with flaming tears, I have spent this span of time.
And with great fear and with trembling and with glory I have spent time in The Lord.
We are in the last of days, in the very few days remaining before His Chastisement begins.
Those of you who do not believe what I am about to say are not wise.
Regardless… i will still inform the body of Christ what He showed me.
Firstly I saw a profile of a fanged serpent with jaws wide open … and I put my forearm up to cover my eyes.
Now I have seen many serpents in my life but this one was different somehow.
Then before my eyes I saw a profile very terribly large RED Dragon.
I did not see his whole body … just his head and his serpent like strong neck.
His head was magnificently and dangerously cut and sculptured.
Suddenly there appeared to the right of the red dragon a figure of a prince soldier dressed with armor and a sword held down in his right hand.
His knees were covered with protecting gear and the reason i say this is because he stepped down on an invisible staircase.
He was beautiful to behold but also determined movements.
I knew he was about to use his sword. Although he held his sword down as he approached the dragon.
Then I saw a continent and I thought it looks like Africa.
(but in hindsight it could have been South America … they look alike.)
And then I saw a large and mighty hand coming out of the clouds holding something in the palm.
Then the hand flipped emptying its contents.
And I thought ‘hail’.
Quickly after I heard a trumpet and I recognized its sound.
It sounded like a sound I have heard before in the U.S.
Then I saw a terrible mixture of blood and meat or of very bloody meat all bunched together.
A terrible sight!!
Then I heard someone say ‘The first thunder!’
End of vision.
Since then I have tried to find pictures and sounds on the net that resembles what I saw and heard.
But I have also been occupied with other urgent matters and I’ve not have much free time.
But let me assure you that all that I’ve said here is TRUE.
And God is my witness.
I hurried to let you know and it is difficult to find the words describing what I saw.
One more point which I just remembered I did see three claws of the dragon.
Long sharp black claws.
hi abigail
Like Tamera said, the dragon wants us to be afraid of him, but we do not have to fear. The wicked will have much to fear, unless they accept Jesus as savior. Your vision reminded me of the battle of Armageddon, where the blood was up to the horse’s bridle, because of all the death.
Thank you, Abigail… And I accept it as the truth because it rang true and clear. I can feel from head to toes when I read. 🙂
Yes, His coming is near.. I have always known he is near.. I would share something with you, Abigail.. that I have not truly share it whole with others before.. and wanting you to know that you are not alone… here it goes….
I stood near the cabin style hotel near the beautiful lake and the background has its green mountain covered with forests… I see the back of hotel are full of people chatting and dancing… I look upward and seeing the clouds making unusual movements like swirling.. faster and faster then beam downward beautiful colors in very faint pink and blue touching down the lake…
Then the lake turns into a huge swirl and deep… and behold a huge huge dragon raised out of it.. drawfing everything ( the dragon stood nearly as tall as mountain) … I gasped outrage at the dragon when it opened its jaws to grab few people to eat… and I walk around to the front of the hotel… shaking in silence fury… watching people running in panic and screaming… and saw one poor man stuck behide the tree to hide from the dragon… and I finally cannot take it no more and step forward to distract the dragon and threw my arms wide and shouted at people to get to their cars immediately… Suddenly, the dragon looked at me then lowered its massive head and opened his jaws slowly toward me.. I did not flinch nor move.. just stood there. I felt very strong engery burst forth from within me.. and there stood a beautiful all silver/blue outfits that reminds me of old old day armor and sword was pure silver and it shines so brightly… woman front of me was glimmering so blindly was thrusting forth warningly at the dragon …. We ( an angel lady and I ) stared the dragon down and let the dragon know that I am not allowed to be touched nor harmed.
That was my dream in three and half years ago.. almost 4 years.
Hug to you, Abigail. At least I know I am not alone that you have seen the dragon. I have seen the dragon couple of times over years.. and have seen its movement from place to the other place… while I was ridden on huge sapphire with wings on my back to report to heaven for the last time. ( I just drew or rather painted for the first time of myself but did not share either )
Blessings, Abigail. And the LORD wants to say to you… ” thank you for share ” 🙂
Hi marianne,
I was not afraid but more like bewildered at the sight of the dragon …
I have found a video that somewhat portrays what I saw of the dragon.
The depiction is at 1:34 minutes in this film.
But please note the prince soldier DID NOT look like that picture I am pointing to.
hi abigail
I think what you were seeing is the devil cast down from heaven, as in REV 12….and after that the soldier you see is the saint defending the faith on earth.
Yup, Abigail… I have seen that same dragon as you have. 🙂 Hugs
Well marianne and tamera … I am glad for your responses.
You both seem to understand the vision, as I do.
Maybe the prince soldier is Christ, or maybe he is Michael but I don’t think he is
‘a representation’.
He most certainly is real and I did see him stepping down a step with a sword in his right hand.
He was heading towards the dragon.
He was unafraid and had a mission to accomplish.
I was surprised to see him move thus.
He had a form of a man and beautiful at that.
I did not see wings nor halo nor any crown.
He had a helmet and was attired as a soldier with a short tunic.
He was a male, not a female … Tamera.
He seemed very capable and authoritative to do what he was about to do.
But I did not see him do it.
Here is a discussion about who Michael is.
We know he is an archangel, but is he the Christ?
What do you think?
Sorry tamera I did not find a video with subtitles for you to read.
hi abigail
There are many places where the Son of Man is mentioned in the OT, and never once is he called Michael.
The Lord is mentioned often but is not called Michael at these times.
the speaker confuses the Lord of Hosts with the angel of the Lord, who is NOT Michael. Michael is an archangel, but not the captain of the Lords’ army. He is piecing together concepts that are not related. Jesus is the commander of the Lords’ army. Michael is a chief prince and an angel of high rank.
The Lord Jesus as the son of man appears in Daniel 10 and says that his coming was delayed by 21 days. He says that the prince of Persia (Satan) held him up, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help him. Obviously, if Michael came to help the Lord, then Michael is not the Lord, but someone who serves him.
During the time of Jacob’s trouble, described in Daniel 12, Michael will be assigned to watch over Israel, to protect it. The man in linen who has been speaking to Daniel since Chapter 10 is Jesus, and Jesus mentions Michael in Chapter 12, as he discusses Israel’s future in the end times.
Michael is not Jesus.
Thank you marianne,
i agree with you.
Michael is an archangel and The Lord is the Lord.
In my vision it was not told me the name of the prince soldier.
But I know i was shown Michael.
I’ve posted the video for clarification.
There are not many who support the theory that Michael is Jesus …
But in case there was amongst us some who hold that theory,
now it has already been discussed.
And refuted!!
Abigail,
It’s okay about having no subtitles. Who is Archangel Michael..I have details on him.. I have a dictionary of Angels and fallen angels that provides each names… and its meaning. There is also another way to find through google as well.
Archangel Michael (“Who is as God”)– in Biblical and post-Biblical lore, Michael ranks as the greatest of all angels, whether in Jewish, Christian, or Islamic writings, secular or religious. He derives originally from the Chaldeans by whom he was worshipped as something of a god. He is chief of the order of virtues, chief of archangels, prince of the presence, angel of repentance, righteousness, mercy, and sanctification; also ruler of the 4th Heaven, tutelary sar ( angelic prince ) of Israel, guardian of Jacob, conqueror of Satan ( bearing in mind, however, that Satan is still very much around and un-vanquished ), etc. His mystery name is Sabbathiel. In Islamic writings he is called Mika’il. As the deliverer of the faithful he accords, in the Avesta, with Saosyhant the Remeeder. Midrash Rabba ( Exodus 18 ) credits Michael with being the author of the whole of Psalm 85. In addition, he has been identified with the angel who destoryed the hosts of Sennacherib ( a feat also ascribed to the prowess of Uriel, Gabriel, Ramiel ) and as the angel who stayed the hand of Abraham when the latter was on the point of sacrificing his son Isaac ( a feat also ascribed to Tadhiel, Metatron, and other angels ).so on and on.. —from the book —
However, there is best way to say that Michael ” Prince of Light ” leads the angels of light in battle against the legions of the angels of darkness, the latter under the command of the demon Belial.
And here is the link that might help for more information on him.
http://www.angelfocus.com/archangels.htm
However, Michael wasn’t with me that time.. it was someone else… who walks with me since breath the life from birth.. I hope that makes sense to you.. And it was definately female.. she looks nearly like me in face and figure.. otherwise just different dressings.. Hard to explain.. Because there are so many angels among us.. Not just Michael.. since he is Chief of ALL angels under God’s authority.. makes sense ?? I hope.. If not.. I will try my best to find somewhere to provide the answers… Only God knows everything.. I don’t 🙂
Blessings.
All the children of Abraham have heard of Michael the chief Prince.
It is said that Michael was the first angel to accept the Creation of Adam …
And so it is fair and just that Michael be the defender of ALL the children of Adam.
He is the one who inflicts the wound to the dragon … the wound that is healed.
He is Chief because he defends all man against the dragon, the serpent of old.
I know Tamera that there are thousands of thousands of tens of thousands … of angels.
And I am sure that some are female!!
As Creations of God we are all protected by angels.
And as born again Creations of God I am positive that powerful angels are by our side.
Blessings to you as well.
The name of Jesus Christ in heavens, before he even came to earth is – METATRON (forbidden to be pronounced and should be pronounced as – MATAT):
ays P. Alexander, “The powerful ‘angel of the Lord’ in the Old Testament (who is sometimes hard to distinguish from God himself) may be the prototype of 3 Enoch’s Metatron” (p.246). In a Dead Sea scroll (11Qmelch) the personage known as Melchizedek “appears as being exalted over all the angels,” and it is stated that He will “preside over a heavenly assize and exact punishment, with the help of the other angels” (p.249). The Qumran community apparently regarded Melchizedek as the high priest of the heavenly Temple – the same role in which Metatron is pictured in 3 Enoch.
Thus Metatron is the same personage as Melchizedek – and the apostle Paul identifies Melchizedek as none other than the One who became Jesus Christ! Paul writes that Melchizedek, to whom Abraham paid a tithe of all (Gen.14:18-20), was “without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but MADE LIKE the Son of God, REMAINS a priest continually” (Heb.7:1-3).
Notice! This person had no parents, humanly speaking. He was KING of Salem, or Jerusalem, meaning, “king of peace” (verse 2). His name, itself, means “King of righteousness.” He pre-existed the Universe, having no “beginning of days.” He is an ETERNAL being, having “no end of life.” Thus His beginning had to be BEFORE CREATION, as “days” are defined as a product of the earth turning on its axis causing night and day.
Says P. Alexander, “A number of clear parallels between the heavenly Melzhizedek of Qumran and the Metatron of 3 Enoch at once suggest themselves: both figures hold exalted, if not pre-eminent, positions among the angels; both are heavenly judges . . .” (p.250). Both also had “earthly lives” – as did Jesus Christ!
“Metatron is Prince over all princes, and stands before him whois exalted above all gods. He goes beneath the throne of glory, where he has a great tabernacle of light . . .” (15B:1).
“The Holy One, blessed be he, said: I made him strong, I took him, I appointed him, namely Metatron my servant, who is unique among all the denizens of the heights. . .” (48C:1).
“I made honor, majesty, and glory his garment; beauty, pride, and strength his outer robe, and a kingly crown . . . I bestowed on him some of my majesty, some of my magnificence, some of the splendor of my glory, which is on the throne of glory, and I called him by MY NAME, The Lesser YHWH, Prince of the Divine Presence, knower of secrets.’ Every secret I have made known to him in love, every mystery I have made known to him in uprightness.
“I have fixed his throne at the door of my palace, on the outside, so that he might sit and execute judgment over all my household in the height. I made every prince stand before him to receive authority from him and to do his will. I took seventy of my names and called him by them, so as to increase his honor. . . .
“As it is written, ‘So the word that goes from my mouth does not return to me empty: he carries out my will.’ It does not say here, ‘I carry out,’ but, ‘he carries out,’ which teaches us that Metatron stands and carries out every word and every utterance that issues from the mouth of the Holy One, blessed be he, and executes the decree of the Holy One” (3 Enoch 48C:1-10).
How clear it is that this personage, Metatron, is another name for the Pre-existent Logos, the One who carries out EVERY WORD AND UTTERANCE of God the Father – that is, He is the same One as the “Word” of God – the LOGOS – the Pre-Existent Jesus Christ!
http://www.triumphpro.com/enoch-and-metatron.htm
gavriel
interesting about metatron…I had thought about doing a post on him but I was not sure if this was a myth or fact.
hi marianne,
I will give more information if I find it, the source of the previous post is as authentical as it can be (follow the link) – it is derived from rabbinic Midrash known as The Third Book of Enoch, The Book of the Palaces, The Book of Rabbi Ishmael the High Priest, and The Revelation of Metatron.
Many years ago (six-seven) I visited lessons of Kabbalah in Bnei-Brak in Orthodox academy, they used to study the book of Zohar, which remains secret until these very days…and there are many mentions of Metatron in the book of Zohar, what amazed me was that it is the tradition of Orthodox Kabbalists not to pronounce the name Metatron because of its extreme holiness, instead they pronounce it in shortened manner as “Matat”…
hi gavriel
If this is an established tradition….yes, i said the magic word…then the Jews should not have been surprised at a “lesser YHVH” coming to earth, and saying he was the son of God, and the Messiah they were waiting for.
…no place for surprise, because this time Our Lord
comes on the clouds of glory, and not riding on
a donkey as the first time, as it says that “they will
wail on account of him whom they pierced” – even those
who pierced him will not be able to deny that:
Jesus is LORD and Saviour of Israel;
gavriel
I am around orthodox all the time, and they never mention this metatron. Maybe it is on a day I miss.
Marianne,
Orthodox Jews study Halacha (strict laws to
live by daily), they don’t study Midrashim,
Hagadah and Zohar and Kabbalah where
Metatron is mentioned – that is only for
initiated; Since proclamation of Lubavitch
Rebbe (A Great Man) as “mashiach” –
orthodox treat topic of redemption as
something forbidden.
BTW, Marianne,
doesn’t it say in the book of Acts that apostles
daily converted 3,000 Jews?
Imagine how harsh it would be for those Jews keep
their Jewish identity and beleif in Christ while
Romans were inflicting holocaust upon Judea!
I guess the only choice they had was either to
die, or become “loyal roman citizens” or simply
to remain with their flock of Jewish family –
while the truth about Christ remained with them;
I hope and have feeling that during 7 year of
tribulation (time of Jacob’s trouble)
the Holy Spirit will arouse many Jews to the love
of truth.
gavriel
initiated? If you are already Jewish, what kind of initiation are you talking about?
jacob’s trouble is only 3 1/2 years.
Daniel 12:12
Rev 12
I am talking about Maaseh Merkavah
(“Work of Chariot”), described in
first chapter of Ezekiel, its secrets
are forbidden to be taught in public.
Anyone, who achieves that level is
told in that spiritual realm identity
of Mashiach, just as Rabbi Ishmael
The High Priest, the figure of Metatron.
Metatron if the one who stood above
chariot in Ezekiel’s vision, this
is heavenly form of Jesus Christ.
Correction to previous post:
I meant to say: “just as Rabbi Ishmael
The High Priest, was shown the figure of Metatron.
Gavriel,
Metatron is mostly associated with Enoch … this is what I have found in encyclopedia Mythica.
The myths of Metatron are extremely complicated, and at least two separate versions exist. The first version states he came into being when God created the world, and immediately assumed his many responsibilities. The second claims that he was first a human named Enoch, a pious, good man who had ascended to Heaven a few times, and eventually was transformed into a fiery angel. Some later books adopt the first version, some the second, and in other literature both are combined. There are even two versions of the name Metatron, one spelled with seven letters, the other with six, lacking the Hebrew letter “yod.” The Kabbalists explained that the six-letter name represents the Enoch-related Metatron, while the seven-letter name refers to the primordial Metatron. Despite the elaborate debate, the origin of Metatron’s name is not clear. Many attempts have been made to explain it, but none of them is satisfactory, since the word has no real meaning or root in any language. Some authors think it may be derived from private meditations and visions, or even glossolalia. This article concentrates on the Metatron-Enoch version
Metatron is one of the most important angels in the heavenly hierarchy. He is a member of a special group that is permitted to look at God’s countenance, an honor most angels do not share. In the literature, Metatron is often referred to as “the Prince of the Countenance.”
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/metatron.html
Abigail
I learned that it was Metatron who helped Enoch transform his body into body of fire, this is why Enoch sometimes is associated
with Metatron, but they are not the same.
Gavriel
Here is where I go.
http://www.jewishraleigh.org/search/results.asp?lang=en&searchword=kabbalah+
I did a search for kabbalah….there were some results…so I assume they skip over Metatron? I have not attended any kabbalah classes, because of timing and distance, but I would think it would spill over into shabbat sermons. I have attended here since 2002, and I have not heard about Metatron during services.
Marianne
Metatron is mentioned in Talmud, Midrash Heichalot and mostly in Zohar (which is main book of Kabbalah)
http://www.thechristianrabbi.org/whoismetatron.htm
http://www.backyardprofessor.com/the_backyard_professor/2007/01/metatron_michae.html
hi gavriel
If I asked the orthodox rabbi about metatron….what would be the best way to do it?….example…I cannot pronounce the name?
Yes, it should be pronounced – MATAT, pronouncing it
properly is considered dangerous…
Gavriel,
Here is a thought …
[9.2] I [Metatron] was enlarged and increased in size till I matched the world in length and breadth. [3] He made to grow on me 72 wings, 36 on one side, and 36 on the other, and each single wing covered the entire world. He fixed in me 365,000 eyes and each eye was like the Great Light.
I think that maybe metatron is the glorified EARTH.
He is the angel who measures and weighs and so he sits near God or near the
throne or chariot of God.
He is a scribe with the ‘ink horn’ and …
My thoughts could go much farther … but I’ll stop here for now.
Gavriel are you familiar with ‘the keys of Enoch?’
Or have you heard of the great white brotherhood of light??
i am curious …
Here is a link
http://www.beyondreiki.com/about_us/brotherhood_of_light.html
Abigail
I don’t trust anything that has to do with New Age.
I was associated once with sorcerers of New Age and was
deceived to think that they were close to God.
I discovered that Astral Projection (which is very beautiful
and colourful) is achieved via sorcery of Sacred Calf – you are
tricked into thinking coming close to God, when in reality you are drawn far from it…
So, beware of everything that has “new age” or “astral projection” in it…
Abigail
That is spiritual descrption – 72 wings probably means ability to
travel in 72 spiritual dimension, and 365,000 eyes to observe
different levels of heaven. These worlds are much higher than our earth I think.
Clouds are the dust of His feet, and even when Lord comes down it says – His feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives.
Well gavriel the 72 wings are actually the 72 names of god and or the 72 virgins of Islam.
Gavriel … I know all about the keys of Enoch and the book of knowledge.
Yes I know you were in new age stuff and please gavriel what you are talking about is still new age stuff … please understand that the ‘knowledge’ you are speaking of is closely related to freemasonary
and ‘sorcery’.
We do not need initiation into any of its ‘mysteries.’
And you yourself for the sake of your soul Leave it NOW!!
“Third Book of Enoch” has nothing to do with New Age, it is a Midrash written by Rabbi Ishmael – former High Priest, who saw the visions of the chariot and described it, just as Ezekiel saw it
This has nothing to do with new age…”the keys of Enoch” does! It is a fake document of witchcraft unrightfully using the name of Enoch.
and gavriel here is a link to this book of knowledge.
http://www.keysofenoch.com/
Do you not see just by its cover the symbolism of egypt?
And to think that they use the name of YHWH on its cover.
There is no lesser YHWH gavriel.
Jesus Christ is one with His Father.
I know how easy it is to be misled …
I am sorry gavriel but I could not let this go on without at least letting you know.
I will pray for you …
Abigail
Why are you bringing up “keys of Enoch”? I never mentioned it, I heard about it and I know that it is a book of witchcraft.
I know that Jesus Christ is one with Father, and has many names…He is also called “son of man”, “suffering servant” and many other names, but these names only express different aspects of God, there is nothing wrong with it…”Metatron” and “lesser YHWH” only describe certain functions in heaven of One and the Same God, as it says that there is none else besides Him…
Gavriel,
forgive me if I am wrong.
keys of enoch speaks of metatron as well.
Rabbi Ishmael is not the only one who wrote the
book 3 of Enoch. It had multiple authors.
Gavriel I do panic when alarms go off in me.
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm
I love the book of Enoch and I know it is deep
in meaning!
I’ve spent my life reading text and sometimes just a slight variance at first ends up being a brand new religion.
I also hate it when someone takes away from any text.
Please forgive me if I am wrong.
Abigail
“The Third Book of Enoch” is not original name, it is a name given given by scholars to Rabbinic work of the 22nd century, its original name is “The Book of Palaces”
It comes from Rabbinic tradition, wHICH i CONSIDER AUTHENTICAL.
Midrash of Rabbi Ishmael resembles Christian authentical writings and the way apostles describe celestial figure of Yeshua. My intent was to show how much Metatron resembles celestial Yeshua, and Metatron is very likely primordial Mashiach – the way he existed in heavenlies before he came to earth.
Shabbat Shalom.
///2nd century I meant.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia
The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to Satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.
Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
Gabriel says that only he and Michael know certain truths which Gabriel will reveal to Daniel. Who could this Michael be but Jesus, God Himself, giving Gabriel the truths to reveal to Daniel?
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.
Some might propose that, in these three preceding texts from Daniel, the description of Michael as a mere prince is inappropriate for Jesus, so it must be speaking of a created angel. Note the following verses:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Now if Michael standing signifies the second coming …
I wonder what ‘Michael stepping down one step signifies’??
abigail
The man in linen is the Lord. there is no mention that he is either michael or gabriel. It does say that Michael helps the man, so the man is not Michael. Jesus is Prince, because his father, in the OT is King.
marianne can you please make your argument with scriptures.
I am trying to follow your thought but , I can’t because I am not sure what you are referring to.
Thank you
abigail
there are 3 persons..
the man in linen introduced in Ch 10
michael is mentioned but not there
gabriel
Isa 37:36 Then the angel of the LORD went forth, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians a hundred and fourscore and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning, behold, they [were] all dead corpses
I’ve just received this in an e-mail
My wife and I were in our house and I noticed the moon moving across the sky at a fast pace. At night you can see it move but it takes a few minutes to see it move just a little. It was moving very fast like time elapsed photography. The neighbors all came out to see the strange show. It looked like a full moon to me but in some frames like an eclipse as well. Then two moons appeared in the sky together and it really freaked people out. The moons kept moving on their circuits faster and faster to the point that it liked like several different moons at the sky at the same time. It started late afternoon and then it turned dark in the span of a few moments. I then received a phone call from my friend John. That was odd in its self because John was my high school friend who committed suicide a year after high school. That was almost 25 years ago. In any case I was shocked to receive a call from him. He said the Rapture is coming. “God is coming
for his people you were right,” he said. I then dropped the phone and heard some type of music and a noise…don’t know if it sounded like a trumpet. But I started crying with emotion and then woke up about 3:30am breathing hard….END
hi abigail
I am glad he finally said it was a dream. He didn’t indicate this until the end.
Gavriel,
I do respect you and the Rabbi Ishmael and text that speaks the truth.
But could you please then explain to me why it is that my findings on the net indicates that the text of ‘Book of Palaces/Temples’ had multi authors/writers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_Enoch
Modern scholars describe this book as pseudepigraphal, as it says it is written by Rabbi Ishmael who became a ‘high priest’ after visions of ascension to Heaven, 90 AD – 135 AD.[1] Rabbi Ishmael is a leading figure of Merkabah literature; however, a number of scholars suggest that it was in fact written by a number of people over a prolonged period of time
3 Enoch contains a number of Greek and Latin words. This book, unlike 1 Enoch, appears to have been originally written in Hebrew
Metatron is identified as many people, the most prominent being Enoch. However, he has interestingly been identified with Yeshua (Jesus).[citation needed] This would make sense to a believer in Yeshua, especially those who believe that Yeshua is not God, but still the messiah.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metatron
Not that I ascribe a great reliance on wikipedia, but before I proceed further …
I thought it best to ask you.
Thank you.
Abigail
I have the original of this book in hebrew, and yes – Jews used Greek in first and second centuries. I read it in hebrew and it appears to have been written by single person, it was written by Rabbi Ishmael with help of his disciples. Scholars say the same things about the books of Bible and authentich apocrypha books and I don’t trust the scholars.
One last question Gavriel if you may on this subject …
Is Yeshua God?
It is okay gavriel …
let me help you …
Phl 2:5
¶
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And this time when they bow the knee it will not be in mockery!!
And this time when there tongue is loosened they will wail!!
And this time it will not be as the time that they despised Him. And still they despise!!
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put [it] upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Isa 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
And so be it !!
hi abigail
just a note….if “God also hath highly exalted him (Jesus),” then God is someone besides Jesus.
God is the subject of the sentence, Jesus is the object of the verb.
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
How can I add to this?
No one knows The Father but the Son.
‘I do what I see my Father do.’
I do the works of Him who sent me
If you believe not my words at least believe the works.
Me and my Father are one.
abigail
The son is not the father…..
the son sees what his father does, he does not look at himself and see that instead
the him who sent “me” is the Father….so the Father sent the son…so they are not the same person
Jesus is united (one) with the Father in spirit, just as we are one in Jesus…..and we are one with each other as Christians….
Jesus is not the Father…he said he was the son of the Father, no the Father himself.
I’ve never said that Jesus said He was or is The Father!!
The Father is God and Yeshua is The Son of God.
Is it possible for the Son not to be as His Father??
Nay!
And so Both The Father and The Son are One!
All Power of God is given to Him (Jesus).
And so ‘The Lord said to My Lord.’
Or The Lord gave you The Will of God.
The Oneness of The Holy Godhead.
But for any to come to The Throne unto The Father
is by Jesus Christ and Through Jesus Christ and in
Jesus Christ and if *** He abides in us then we have both **
The Father and The Son.
That’s correct, Marianne.. 🙂
Abigail, Marianne,
Yes.
Jesus Christ is God of Israel.
“and the spirit of God (Ruach Elohim) hovered over the face of the waters” – this is Mashiach, before God even created the universe, he established plan for salvation, to humble Himself for the sake of the world out of His eternal love to humanity and become the redeemer.
God is The First (The Father) and The Last (The Son).
He became “son of Man”, was completely emptied out of His power when He was on the cross (“my God, why have you forsaken me”) and once again became God after resurrection and ascention…but, “once again” is not the accurate definition, because for God there is no time – He can exist in all universes at the same time, time exist only for us, but in the future even we will see that there really is no time, God never changed, He was one and the same: before the creation, when he became Saviour of Israel, when He was crucified and even when He descended into hell to save the lost souls:
“5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, beside Me there is no God; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me;
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am the LORD; and there is none else;
7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.”
Isaiah 45
Gavriel! Gavriel! You’ve just made my heart dance!
No The Lord made my heart dance.
He is the reason for the joy I know and He is the reason that out from this joy …
I can not help but to dance!!
And then out of His Love he thanked me for dancing!
I have waited for your answer Gavriel.
And now I know that you are an exceptional person!
Thank you and thank you!
And bless the Name of The Lord!
Who this day causes me to be exuberant!
Gavriel and Marianne,
I have just pulled this out of my sent mail box … dated August 23/08
And so I will paste here what I’ve written a year ago.
Before I go to bed tonight I want to give you a Word from our Lord
YahYeshua the Christ, which I have received a while_ back. This is the True Word of God!!
As I laid on my bed and just as I was to start my daily prayer, Christ in me prayed these words. And these Holy Words came from deep inside me and make NO mistakes, these are TRUE!!
“MY Father WHO__ is__ HEAVEN… ” Not, ” Our Father who is IN Heaven {AS of A place} no, but again I write These holy Words of CHRIST as He spoked them through me, “MY FATHER WHO IS HEAVEN” I heard His Voice pray as praying with me but different than my own prayer. His voice was ALL POWER and MIGHT and TRUE!!
I share this with you so He may witness of His FATHER to you as He has to me. Good night.
Since then this was added to this powerful word.
‘My FATHER IS HOLYWHO IS HEAVEN’
Abigail,
That is very pleasent to hear.
And remember, “abomination of desolation” is on the way, that will be complete spiritual eclipse, and beleivers will feel dried
out and abondoned by God just as Jesus felt abondened on the cross, but this will be the final test, but we will make it through, so be strong. I’m going to sleep now…Good night.
Only after some 45 minutes, the Rabbi raised his head and looked around the room at the students and worshippers who were gathered at his Nachalat Yitzhak Yeshiva, in the Bucharim neighborhood of Jerusalem. With a broad smile on his face familiar to his students when he has a revelation, he declared, “With the help of G-d, the soul of the Mashiach has attached itself to a person in Israel” [In the original Hebrew: ‘Hit’abra bezrat hashem nishmat mashiach b’adam m’yisrael’].
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/91417
For marianne,
Please note the date of this article!
It blew me away!
***October 19*** …
Seems to me I have seen that exact date somewhere before??
And now of course the year was 2005
hi abigail
My brain is a little fuzzy, but didn’t you mention a date like that once?
I thought I mentioned something about October …
It could have the 9th. 10th. 11th. or the 19th.
Anyways we all should know by now about the plans for the moon.
Hope it doesn’t affect the menstrual cycles amongst other cycles.
HALLELUJAH!!!!!!! =)
There is a story today in the news about the findings that the moon rock given by US to countries is actually petrified wood.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8226075.stm
HHMMMM … I find that interesting.
‘Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament (sigh and cry) over the detestable things that are done in it. As I listened, he said to the others, Follow him throughout the city and kill without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary…’ Ezekiel 9:4-6.
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Hi 🙂
I have oddest dream… I was asking about moving out of Washington state next to Idaho to somewhere else… and got no answers for a while… up until this morning. I was watching on history channel about Zeus and myth people related that are banned from bible.. so on and on.. somehow in middle of show, I got so sleepy and knew God wanted to show me something.. so I submitted willingly to sleep…
I was shown again of comets more likely came down reminds me of shooting stars yet not.. fell upon the earth … after comets stopped… rumbling can be felt far and wide… and suddenly I can see so far where all mountains are split into two… with huge earthquake that never been felt for centuries… and it can split from top to the bottom.. but where is a good question… and can see the mountains move out the way…
I am not sure what those meant at all… it is almost like warning.. I kept getting it from time to time.. but this time is more intense warning.. so I had to pass that and share without hesitation …. Any idea ??
hi tamera
Increasing earthquakes are predicted in the bible as a sign of end time judgment, and the coming of the Messiah.
Hi Abigail, I wasn’t able to access the link you sent as I use my cell for the internet & some sites are too large. I was able to find all kinds of info, history, scholarly comments, partial texts, etc, of the Quran & War Scrolls. The 6 wars yielded 3 equal victories for the angels of light & of darkness, a tie! The 7th war was won by the sweep of GOD’s mighty Hand for His people, the angels/warriors of light, w/their GOLD trumpets, shields, etc!..Yes, we need the armies of God, but w/o God’s Will for us we won’t prevail! Our Father in Heaven, Blessed be Your Name! All Power, all Glory, all Honor is Yours.. I still have questions, as many do, in regards to the writings of the War Scrolls. Who were the authors & what were the circumstances for which they were written? Some scholarly assesments liken the group to a cult type, such as the people who were responsible for the Waco, Texas tragedy..??! What’s clear, is that only by God’s Grace & Mercy will we survive. Repent & Pray everyone!… Shalom…Elle
Elle, You speak as though this war was in the past.
Not so.
Another clarification needs to be addressed here The Essenes were holy.
Please research the history of these levites priests.
Anyone who would defame these holy prophets is insulting God Himself!
A good place to start studying is
http://www.hisholychurch.net/study/history/Essenes2.php
I hope you can access this site.
GLORY GLORY GLORY AND PRAISE TO OUR LORD . WORSHIP HIM, HE IS WORTHY , DANCE IN PRAISE TO HIM . HE IS COMING , HE IS COMING FOR YOU AND ME WHO KNOW HIM. BLESSED BE HIS NAME FOREVER AND EVER. FALL ON YOUR FACE BEFORE HIM .WORSHIP YAHWEH, OUR GOD WHO CREATED US ALL TO BE HIS CHILDREN . JESHUA HA MOSHIACH WHO DIED FOR US ALL SO WE COULD HAVE OUR SINS WASHED IN HIS BLOOD, BE FORGIVEN AND BE YAHWEH CHILDREN FOREVER AND EVER.
MAY GOD BLESS YOU ALL DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTER IN CHRIST.
LET US WORSHIP OUR GOD WITH ALL OUR HEARTS MINDS AND BODYS AMEN
Nehl, AMEN. Blessings to you! elle
Elle,
Essenes (who lived in Qumran) were following tradition of the prophets. Mystical tractates of Dead Sea Scrolls have analogies with other Rabbinic traditions of those days. The very fact of survival of Dead Sea Scrolls is a proof how God preserved His word verbatim for last 2,000 years.
Also notice, our Lord Jesus Christ many time condemns Pharisees and Sadducees in the gospels, but is silent about Essenes, who also were major religious group in those days. It is also interesting to notice that Jesus and disciples always had the place to stay in whatever town they went – it was the tradition of Essenes to welcome anyone affilated with them in their houses, it is most likely that Jesus and His disciples stayed at the houses of Essenes.
Aaigail, Don’t know hnw you arriued at that conclusiion. The purpose of what I wrote is not contentious. Just merely reporting what I read.. Didn’t say those who question or theorize are right…
hi elle
Most would assume that historical documents refer to past events. 🙂
🙂 Hi Marriane! Yes, the past IS the past! The causes & struggles still exist in some form…At least that is how I see it!!
Dear Elle,
I wasn’t speaking about you but to you.
And about those who would say …’ Some scholarly assesments liken the group to a cult type, such as the people who were responsible for the Waco, Texas tragedy..??! ‘
i am truly sorry if i was not clear.
I would not accuse you of anything and I was just trying to be helpful by providing a link to some historical fact for any of the readers.
We are instructed to speak in season and out of season…
This has not been a good season for me.
Hi Gaviel, I agree. Jesus lived in Nazarene, in the so. where some Essenes lived. They also lived in the no. & throughout Palestine. Why didn’t Jesus speak about these people? The Essenes broke away from traditional Judiasm because they didn’t agree with who qualified as high priest. They lived mostly in the wilderness, to purify & live a pure life. It is said they joined the Hasideons (sp), & that’s when they named themselves the Essenes. Food for thought: Is it true that the scrolls, in clear Hebrew, speak of Zadok? The High Priest, a Sarducci, who annointed Solomon King. It is said there is no mention of Essenes in the scrolls, wonder why? And is it true that there is no historic testimony in Hebrew or Aramaic of the Essenes? If so, why not?! Altho, Holy, could they have been considered non existent because they broke away from the mainstream practices? These are some of the reasons scholars are still looking @ this, even as I write. Yes, there have been ridiculous spins! Any thoughts? Blessiogs! Elle
elle … in Hebrew HaYachad = Essenes which means the united ones.
The Romans have mocked, have tortured and thought to have killed ALL of
the people of God… But surprise, surprise they did not even shed a tear in their torture.
And further more … the romans were not successful in terminating ‘them’.
And the romans were not successful in burning all the scripts.
And yet further more ‘Belial’ will be completely destroyed without ONE
remnant remaining. And by God Himself!
And so be it!
Zohar Chadash: Darach Kokhav MiYaakov
At the time of the End of Days, according to the hour of the day, at the time that the sun shines, from the 6th Day, at the time that is ready according to the count of years, of Yovel and Shmitah together, which is רע”ד (Raa’d, 274 in Gematria) from the 6th Day. At that time a single voice is prepared to awaken at the heights of the upper heavens, a sad and bitter voice, such that hasn’t been since the day that the world was created.
And that voice will be fine (דק), in secret, in bitterness, in sadness, going down and up, up and down, and thus it will say: “I had a beloved doe from the old days, but it forgot me. I had strong love with her. I remember that the form of her face was impressed on my heart and on my arm, and my love for her was strong within me, and the flames burned within me.”
At that hour, he will cry three cries, one after another, and all the heavens will shake, and all the worlds will shake, until 3 voices are heard, in to the Tanin fish (נונא תנינא), and will run away 400,000 parsaot to one fish in the sea. There it will put out its traps and nets, and pull it from the sea, and bring it to the Yeshiva in the heavens, and see from it all the problems and disagreements that will be presented there. And he will be stuck there 150 days.
And at that time, HaKadosh Baruch Hu will gather all the hosts of heaven, and all the members of his Yeshivah, and He is above them all, and they are bringing before him that Tanin, and they will tie 3 knots on his neck, and take his 3 beloved ones, and return him to the place he is held. And his beloeved ones will enter one sanctuary which is called Ahavah (Love) and they will be hidden there.
And HaKadosh Baruch Hu will impose an oath on all of these hosts, and to these 2 Yeshivot, that all of them go, and hear the voice of the beloved, that He desires to hear her voice with them. At that time there will be aroused on the Holy Nation troubles, one on top of the other, with great force, and they cry out cry after cry, tears after tears, and they awaken her. And he sounds her voice out for her children.
And HaKadosh Baruch Hu calls and says, this is my doe, my friend, my dove, my complete one that sits in gardens, that would only sit in the hidden part of the cliff on the inside, like you say “All the honor of the daughter of the king is on the inside” (Tehillim 45), and now she is in the gardens (Shir HaShirim 8), boldly, like a mother going after her son, in the market and open areas of the city, in fear to make sure they won’t hurt him.
My doe, my friend, look, behold all of the friends of the 2 Yeshivot are here. Friends/members of those Yeshivot are listening to your voice, make it heard! (Shir HaShirim 8) for My desire is to hear your voice.
How long it has been since I last heard your voice, that I didn’t know you. Then all the inhabitants of the world were mixed, people in people, nation in nation. And he who isn’t worthy to rule, they bring him to be in charge. And they bring with him foreign nations and different tongues, that don’t know justice, and not the laws of rulership. And how many wars they consider making.
And in a soft lip, soft speech, he (referring to the one above who is not worthy to rule) will do as he desires, and rule. He will think some thoughts to do evil. And for the Unique Nation he will make evil decrees. Then there will be trouble upon trouble upon that Unique Nation. At that time Hakadosh Baruch Hu will be strengthened, and He will appease His doe a few different appeasements, and He will take her and raise her up from the dirt, Him and none else, and the 2 Yeshivot will remain with her.
Three kings will remain, and will awaken at 3 sides of the world on this nation, and that king that would rule with a soft mouth, will rule with great anger, and strength on the Holy Nation.
And in the 3rd month (Sivan), on the 4th of the month, at 9 and 1/2 hours, all the members of the Yeshivah will go with the doe, to the grave of the shepherd, the faithful of His house, and give him 3 voices. At the time that the sun leaves the world, and his grave will open, and the members of the Yeshivah will want to go inside, but they will not be allowed, and all will go away to their places. And She will enter, and from her will go out what will go out. And she will find Moshe sitting and toiling (in Torah), and a candle lit before him, and some incense surrounding him.
And because he saw her entering, he will stand up and they will join together, and the voices will be aroused in the heights of heaven, and HaKadosh Baruch Hu will hear, and enter the Sanctuary of Ahavah, and take from there the three beloved ones, and open for them his cave. And then that night, Moshiach will be awakened, and he will be found with them, and they will go over secrets of Torah, that entire night, like in the cave of Moshe.
And when the first morning light comes up, Moshiach will be hidden, while Moshe and the Shechinah remain there on that day, like the day of Shavuot. And the Shechinah will go up on that mountain, and there will be 3 voices heard, 1 for Avrahahm, 1 for Yitzchak, and 1 for Moshe and Yaakov. That is what is written “On a high mountain rise up for yourself, you that tell good tidings of Tzion, raise your voice with strength” (Yeshayahu 40), etc, raise up and don’t be afraid, speak, etc.
Raise your voice, raise your voice, speak. This “raise your voice in power”, that is Teruah. “Raise your voice and don’t fear”, that is Tekiah. Speak, that is Teruah Tekiah and Teruah together. And that is called Shofar Teruah. Shofar from that Teruah above.
A small shofar, for there is another one called the big shofar. This small shofar goes like the movement of a candle, and that is what is written “And the voice of the shofar goes (Shemot 19). For the other shofar is hidden away, and doesn’t go. Rather this small one, he is here on the day of Shavuot, for he awakens on the day of Torah, the day of Shavuot.
And in this awakening of the shofar, that the Teruah Tekiah and Teruah awaken, will awaken the Avot from the cave, and they will go up in a wind, and come to her. And from that voice, many wicked ones in the Holy Land will die, and leave the world. And on that day the prayers of Yisrael will go up in all of their places before The Holy King. And the Avot will come together, and will be at that mountain, and Moshe will go up with them. And there he will look at the Avot, and them at him. And all will enter in to the cave of Moshe, and Moshiach will awaken to them, and they will all join together on that day.
And on that day, the 10 tribes will awaken, to do war in the 4 directions of the world with the Moshiach which will be anointed upon them, and he will receive his anointment by a righteous Kohen, the 7 Faithful Shepherds with him.
And this Moshiach is from the tribe of Efraim, the seed of Yerovam ben Nevat, the son of Aviyah, that died in his youth, and that day that he died, there was a son born to him, and he was taken from the house of Yerovam to the desert. And 170 strong men took him there, all righteous men from the tribe of Efraim, that he wouldn’t fall in to the sin of Yerovam.
And from this son of Aviyah, will go out this Moshiach. Therefore it is written “And all of Israel eulogized him and buried him” (Melachim Aleph 14) And this was sealed, this prophecy, for its time and prophecy for the future. For this by itself will come to Yerovam to his grave because there is something good found for Hashem, G-d of Israel in the house of Yerovam. That is Moshiach, which is a good thing for Hashem.
Because the Avot will know, that HaKadosh Baruch Hu is remembering His doe and His nation, there will be so much happiness upon happiness on that day. In the northern land, kingdom of Teiman, there will be trouble upon troubles on that day for Am Yisrael, and their prayers will be gladly accepted. And on the night of that day, the Shechinah will return to the house, and Moshiach to his place, and the Avot to their cave.
The Shechinah will go and return by Moshe for 70 days. At the end of 70 days, the cry of Israel will go up before the Holy King, that they are causing troubles for them at all corners of the world. And one Knesset on the south will be destroyed and lost. And amongst them 5 Righteous Men of Truth will be killed.
And then 32 days after they will kill that Knesset, HaKadosh Baruch Hu will dress that small shofar with zealotry. And that Moshiach ben Efraim will spread out a cover like a bull that his horns go up like an ox.
And that small shofar, will call out Teruah Tekiah and Teruah 3 times at the head of the mountain as at first, and then the flags of that Moshiach will travel, and a great noise will fall on the world by the voices of that shofar. And all the people of the world will see and hear. Like it says “All the residents of the land and, and dwellers of the earth like the raising of a staff will see, and like the blowing of the shofar you will hear” (Yeshayahu 18).
And then the idols in the Holy Land will be burned. And 3 wars the sons of Yishmael will do with Moshiach. And they will come and bow to the Ruler of the World on the Holy Mountain in Yerushalayim. And these wars will be in the 6th millenium.
And in the month of Bul (Cheshvan), the haters will fall, and all the remaining idols will be removed from the Holy Land. And from there they will go and arouse wars on the world. And will they are doing these wars with the people of the earth, the children of Edom will gather on the Holy Land, and capture it, and control it for 12 months.
At the end of 12 months, the entire world will erupt and quake. And between these times, the Shechinah will go and return to the cave of Moshe. And the Melech HaMoshiach will be hidden for 9 months, like the months of childbirth, and these 9 months, he will accept upon himself much pain and suffering.
And while this is happening, HaKadosh Baruch Hu increases his suffering, and he will enter in the paths of one tree, for he has a great, holy, and strong tree. And there in 70 branches, he will take the measurements of the diagonals, and take 70 appointed ones, that circle the 70 branches of the tree, to those measurements of the diagonals, and they will be found to be forbidden one weight of a measure and a half (וישתכחון אסורין חד תקלא דמכילא ופלגו). Then he will bring them down from every branch.
And many branches which are small and which aren’t small will break when he brings them down, because they are caught up in the (main) branches, and will break coming down. Then many of the Holy Nation will break between the legs of the other nations. And all these appointed ones, will pass them through Nehar Dinur, and will have their control taken away.
And in the mean time, Moshiach will suffer much pain and suffering like a woman in childbirth. About this time it is written “Hashem will respond to you in the day of trouble” (Tehillim 20:1). That these 9 verses are like the months of pregnancy. And there are 70 words, like the 70 years in the 6th millenium, he will give birth and control the whole world. And because this is during the 9 months, they will be visible all night, from midnight onwards, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire outside of the heavens, that do war, one with another, until the morning light.
After these 9 months, HaKadosh Baruch will awaken this Moshiach, and bring him out of Gan Eden. And this day that he comes out, the whole world will shake, and everyone in the world will think that he is dying.
And on this day it is written “And they will go in to caves of rocks and in to holes in the earth from fear of Hashem” That is the Shechinah, that will be raised up from this time going forward, and the Moshiach with her. “And from the glory of His majesty” – that is the Moshiach, “when he arises to shake the earth.” (Yeshayahu 2:19). And then “And he will gather the dispersed of Israel and the outcast of Yehudah he will gather” (Yeshayahu 11:12).
That is in 60 years of the 6th millenium, and they will go afterwards and HaKadosh Baruch Hu will do for them many miracles.
http://keitzmeguleh.blogspot.com/2008/03/zohar-chadash-darach-kokhav-miyaakov.html
Gavriel
I do not understand this. Also, why does it say Moshiach is from the tribe of Efraim?
Mashiach from the tribe of Efraim, is NOT Mashiach BEN DAVID. Every righteous Jew of the generation for last 3300 years ARE in the category of Mashaich Ben Efraim, however, Mashiach Ben Efraim of the LAST generation is differed from the others, because he brings his purpose to fulfilment…Mashiach ben Efraim (or Ben Yosef) is destined to be killed, and then ressurected by MASHIACH BEN DAVID (=YESHUA), he is one of TWO WITNESSES of revelation.
Marianne,
Check Kol Ha’Tor from GR”A, he gives details regarding purpose of the TWO Mashiachs, while almost everything is known regarding Mashiach ben Yosef, almost nothing is known regarding Mashiach ben David – because HE comes on the clouds of Heaven:
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/index.htm
gavriel
ch 1-20 says that Mashiach ben Yosef is Metatron,
so why have Mashiach ben David?
they are the same person.
Marianne,
what is “ch 1-20” ?
Mashiach ben Yosef can be any righteous person of the generation, Esther and Cyrus were also Mashiach ben Yosef and many others. However, Zohar speaks of last generation figure, it’s not even clear if it is a person or general soul of righteous Jews.
gavriel
it is chapter 1….then go to paragraph/point #20.
http://www.yedidnefesh.com/kaballah/kol-hator/1.htm
I could see it could have 2 meanings….
Mashiach ben Yosef is Metatron, the Angel of the Interior
but the spirit of Mashiach can be seen in each generation of righteous, which would usher in the
final Mashiach ben david
you are up late!
Marianne,
from reading I understand that Metatron is spiritual root of Ben Yosef, his spiritual guide, not the actual Ben Yosef.
“He was therefore sent down from Heaven [this is based on the words, [Isa. 60:22] “the smallest will become a thousand, ” etc., and this hints at the number 999 which is in the sefira Yesod, and the root of the or elyon at the high level of the angel Metatron, who is the Angel of Interior.”
Ben Yosef and Ben David are strongly connected, and are destined to be united and become one, from Ezekiel’s prophecy of uniting staff of Joseph and staff of Judah.
Hi, Gavriel and Abigail,
I understand from previous comments that you both believe
Jesus(the Son) to be God(the Father),one and the same.
Before I go into the argument about the terms Father and Son being mutually exclusive by any definition, would I
be right in thinking that you consider the Son(as he is
God) to be omniscient. If you agree to this, could you
then please explain Matt,24:36. in conjunction with
Eph,1:20 and give your reasons as to why you believe
they are one and the same.
Many thanks.
Hi Richard,
In Revelation Jesus identifies Himself:
1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
Hi Gavriel,
So you agree that Jesus should know “the day and the hour”.
Simply look at all the verses (blue letter bible) for the words ‘I AM’.
Heaven is My Throne And The Earth My Footstool.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well. I agree, Jesus does not have the complete knowledge to Father has.
I am looking now outside the Bible and inside the Bible. In fact I am reading the Bible more than any other time in my life. Yet I am not looking towards the Jews for help.
1 Thessalonians 2:14-16 “For ye, brethren, became followers of the Church of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews. Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they pleased not God, and are contrary to all men: forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.”
So much for those who see a tight connection between Isreal and the Church.
I am looking towards the native Americans to learn their wisdom. I believe that the Spirit of God is the Great Spirit. I cannot prove this from scripture but I do not think one can disprove this.
Love,
John
Let me inform you Richard and please open your heart.
The Holy Scriptures were written in the Holy language … Hebrew.
Every letter with infinite meaning because it is the creative Word of God.
Before the tower of Babel where God confused all the languages all men knew and understood the Word of God.
God has chosen the people of the language (true and holy)
Israel is that chosen people.
Hebrew is an earthy language, as well as divine.
In this some native tribes of America do resemble Israel.
But … they had no written language.
And though they are a kind people and one who seeks God in nature,
and have suffered much … at the hands of the R.C.C.
remember that Yeshuah is a hebrew and from the wilderness…
as was John the baptizer etc.
Also worth noting those sent by Yeshuah were commanded to take no scrolls with them …
but that is an aside.
Hatred today as then has covered the earth with blood.
And is stirred by greed and earthly wisdom and lust for power.
I have seen its ugly face in the church as well.
Just a reminder of a scripture which we should all consider …
Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days [it shall come to pass], that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard [that] God [is] with you.
As for proving or disproving there has been some D.N.A. studies done on these tribes … but God help this remnant if proven that they are hebrew descendants.
And he is a jew who does the will of God.
I would like to explain something here …
A God created soul who is being formed infinitely ‘knows’ that this is so with certainty …
when he/she looks at the distance between The Almighty infront and beholds /his/hers
brothers/sisters way back in day one of the thousand years equivalent to the first day.
At that realization with The Love of God given it the power to move towards
the lost ones of day one, because one just can’t bear the work alone of what still needs to be done.
In other words … The Love Of God In you moves you to be as He is and that is a savior.
No one may will enter Heaven alone!
You must see your brother by your side and not somewhere back there struggling
with just very simple and classical and empty moralities.
Heaven gives help to him whos’ sole ambition is to see their brother walking the Way
and the Truth and the Life and doing the same thing you are doing.
And that is helping unselfishly with gratitude and a joyful heart … the brother who is still behind you.
In this fashion we all climb the ladder of Jacob.
And this is what is meant when the scriptures says ‘if I have all knowledge and have not Love I have NOTHING.’
Hi John,
I’m very well thank you, and very pleased to meet you !
Yes, I believe Jesus to be a person in his own right,
because I do believe this is what the scriptures teach.
Unfortunately, this debate will continue right up to
Armageddon, when we, who know the truth, will have the
priveledge of meeting him personally, as his proud
Father looks on and says “That’s my boy, I’m so proud of
him, you know”. And maybe he will wipe a tear from His
“brow” as he says this !! (Just my thoughts)
It is so important to know the true nature of our Lord
and saviour, in relation to his Father, as this will
determine our understanding of just who God is.
If we worship a false God, then there is no provision for
salvation. I believe the “trinity” to be just that false
God, and most worship this unbiblical God. There are
sound reasons why this is so, which we can’t go into
here, but if one genuinly seeks God and His truth, then,
the truth will indeed set us free from falsehood and
deception. I’m so pleased that you appear to be on the
right path. The connection between Israel and the church
is another much debated issue, but I do believe that the
scriptures teach that the saved, Jew and Gentile, are now
God’s chosen people, whom he designates as “Spiritual
Israel”, thereby making each one a “Spiritual Jew”
under this new covenant. Israel, the land, has and always will be “the apple of God’s eye” which He is now
getting ready for His “new Israel” to reside in, under
the rule of Jesus, when he returns. Bye the way,Israel
the land, is thriving beyond what is normal, jut as God
said it would !!
As far as the scriptures are concerned, I urge you in
love, never to look beyond them for answers. This will
prove to be fatal if you do !! Everything we need to
know, the things GOD ONLY, DESIRES US TO KNOW can be
found in “His Word”. Satan will do everything possible
to cause us to add or subtract from “God’s Word”, which
will result in corrupt undesranding and ultimately,
withdrawal of God’s Spirit, which he gives us to understand “His Word” when we take the trouble to stick
our noses in it !! God forbids us to look beyond the
scriptures.
2 Tim 3:16…..Rev 22:17-21
Look forward to a resume!! God bless you John
Hi Abigail,
I noticed you attached my name to your comments.
Is there a reason for this ?
It was late at night and I just couldn’t sleep …
Made a mistake richard …
I was addressing John but I’m happy you’ve read it too. 🙂
Richard,
Points duly noted. No I would not hold anything beyond scripture as Gospel. But wisdom abounds in many places. True one must be careful though. Yet I feel a deep affection for the native Americans and one day wish to go to them and teach them about Jesus. That is another reason why I desire to learn their ways.
Love,
John
hi John,
So, why wait? I have noticed your love for native americans for a long time.
Jesus is coming “soon.” Go ahead and seize the time! GO preach to them. You would be good at it. 🙂
love,
marianne
Hi John,
That’s a noble cause, and if you have deep affection,
then you are more than half-way there !!
If and when you have finished there, perhaps you would
like to join me here in London, with some of those people
,as the U.K. seriously needs re-educating.
But alas, it really is too late. Nice thought though !
I didn’t wish to sound patronising,but I have good reason
to believe that the Bible is the only credible source of
wisdom, as all wisdom originates with God.
God bless.
Hi Abigail,
It’s o.k., you’ve got up to 77 times !!
I’m sorry you can’t sleep. Is it possible that you may
be suffering from googlesomnia ?!
I’m sorry Abigail, but I do have this less than desirable
sense of humour. I pray that God quietens your mind,
please pray that God straightens mine.
God bless.
I wasn’t complaining of lack of sleep richard.
And truly I was not addressing you.
I was addressing John.
You may not believe me but that is the truth.
And I certainly was not mocking you or anyone.
My post was actually about mathematics.
A subject I love because one gets to use both sides of the brain.
Did you know that within the hebrew letter Aleph which equals 1000 or 1
which means the greek word ‘alpha’ or the english word ‘first’ …
actually in a circle is also joined by the ‘last’ equivalent to 900.
Also was thinking how the american native also thinks on the calculating side of the brain with a circle. … which reminds me of the sacred language.
The more classical mathematics of Einstein uses the ‘dot’ or the period and on and on.
Which also reminded me of the sage who said ‘while the soul slumbers…
God speaks to man in numbers.’
Sorry if I offended you Richard or any one …
never was it my purpose, nor my intent.
Maybe I should just leave this website completely.. … since profound ideas
are not welcome.
Abigail,
You did not offend me at all !! I love mathematics too.
Have you heard of combinatorial analysis ?
Well in conjunction with probability theory, I have just
done a quick calculation, and I would say that there is
C(0,0) chances of you leaving this website !!
God bless
I did draw the 77 out of you as the broken chord of Halleluiyah.
There are 77 spans between the right hand of God and the left.
Or if you want … As far as the east is from the west.
That is true forgiveness in the hebrew math.
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
No it is not too late. When Christ comes in the clouds with the angels in glory then it will be sadly too late for the vast majority of man.
Regarding wisdom outside the Bible. Then the vast majority of eductation is void of wisdom. Then science is void of wisdom. Then poetry is void of wisdom. Then art is void of wisdom.
No I cannot accept that statement wisdom is only found in the Bible. After all there are different kinds of wisdom as well. Luke 16:8 “…for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of the light.” I’m afraid that scripture proves you wrong. I would readily agree the Bible is the Word of God and infallable. Yet even today we see the Bible from a European point of view. The Bible is from the Jews an Asian people.
What you say reminds me of a Bible study I participated in. An elderly woman, kind hearted and dedicated to God began to answer a question saying, “Well it is my experience that—“. Suddenly another younger man cut her off. “I don’t care what you think I want to know what the Bible says about that.”
Love,
John
God is Holy.
For mathematicians, scientists, musicians and linguists, who would plumb the secrets of creation itself.
For any who would both know that creation at its higher level can both read/calculate
at the same time and actually understand with both sides of the brain at once.
This is revelation and aspires a climb.
What I am showing here you is Hebrew and holy.
Scribes in Hebrew are, and always were, called סופרים (sofrim, meaning ‘those who count’ as well as ‘those who produce books’). The Hebrew word for book is ספר (sefer). The Hebrew word for number is מספר (mispar) from the self-same radical. Reading, writing and calculation are one and the same in classical Hebrew. Hebrew was never read without consideration of the numerical values of the letters until the knowledge was lost among the majority of the People during the Diaspora after the destruction of the Second Temple. In every generation the ancient system was preserved lovingly, and expanded upon, by the few.
How can it be that one follows after a thousand, and two puts ten thousand to flight…?
איכה ירדף אחד אלף ושנים יניסו רבבה
And I will add here this verse which says the same thing!!
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed!
There is a point in spiritual journey – like point of entrance or exit from divine reality – where one has to decide whether to sell or not to sell his soul to the devil, when the decision is made, the person is told in that spiritual realm that – JESUS IS GOD! Let those who have an ear hear – therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation – stand in the holy place!
Gavriel,
This is why The Lord says (now pay close attention) To all Men!!!…
‘Seek you FIRST ME and the KINGDM!’ Then all these things shall be ADDED unto you.’
Abigail,
True. From that point onwards is like walking in His shoes, The Lord guides the person throughout the tribulations to his purpose, like mother her child during 9 months of pregnancy.
Hi Aaigail, And, God is the same, yesterady, today and tomorrow! 🙂
What a sunny disposition you have!
And great faith.
And the ‘word is God’ .
May He sing of His Love for you to you.
Hi John,
Hope you are well today.
Psalm 110:10 says: “The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom”
This is the only true wisdom. The wisdom you are referring to
which manifests itself in the fields of endeavour and the like,
you mentioned, is referred to in scripture as the wisdom of men.
1 Cor 2:1-5 Isaiah refers to it as “wisdom which is wise in
it’s own eyes”. 1saiah 5:21
Good examples are Philosophy, Science and most of the ‘ologies.
This kind of wisdom is self-serving because it excludes God, which renders it inherently deficient and ultimately,subject to error.
I am not certain of this and so I need your help.
Gavriel says: ‘From that point onwards is like walking in His shoes’
What ‘point’ is that?
I was thinking that maybe?? the ‘point’ referred to is the ‘unthinkable’
The unthinkable question that The Lord may ask, or have asked, or will ask …
And that is ‘Will you betray me?’
It is written …
If ye be come peaceably unto me to help me, mine heart shall be knit unto you:
but if [ye be come] to betray me to mine enemies
seeing [there is] no wrong in mine hands …
1 Chronicle 12:17
And then the following verse says:
Then the spirit came upon Amasai, [who was] chief of the captains, [and he said], Thine [are we], David, and on thy side, thou son of Jesse: peace, peace [be] unto thee, and peace [be] to thine helpers; for thy God helpeth thee. Then David received them, and made them captains of the band.
And continuing the reading we find this verse a little later…
The captains on that day were ‘the hosts of God.’
What do you think?
O of course, I forgot to mention this most important part of the question…
‘For ??? pieces of silver’
We could write the entire question this way …
“Will you sell me (betray) for X amount of money?”
John, Sorry I forgot to add that, people who introduce Godly
wisdom in to any field of endeavuor, will naturally, enhance
performance within that field.
God bless.
Richard,
“Gavriel says: ‘From that point onwards is like walking in His shoes’
What ‘point’ is that?
I was thinking that maybe?? the ‘point’ referred to is the ‘unthinkable’
The unthinkable question that The Lord may ask, or have asked, or will ask …
And that is ‘Will you betray me?’”
This point is facing 4 veils hiding God’s face mentioned in Ezekiel 1:4, and they are:
1. a tempest, coming from the north;
2. a huge cloud;
3. a flaming fire with a brightness around it;
4. the color of the chashmal from the midst of the fire;
If man stays with The Lord, during all of these tests, from that moment onward he is wearing God’s shoes…
During, Abomination of Desolation mentioned by the prophet Daniel, all of Mankind will be tested and free will shall be abolished forever.
I shall not elaborate any further on this, I’ve said enough…
Hi Gavriel,
The above comment should have been addressed to Abigail
Thanks
“The revelation of Jesus Christ which GOD GAVE TO HIM to show
his servants what must happen soon” Rev 1:1
GOD (person 1) GAVE to JESUS (person 2)
GOD had something JESUS did not have.
GOD HAD knowledge that Jesus DID NOT HAVE, therefore
Jesus is not omniscient.
There are TWO DISTINCT persons here, therefore
JESUS cannot be GOD.
Richard BEFORE YOU TEACH you must learn …
Rev 1:1
¶
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:
1:1 Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ θεός δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ Ἰωάννῃ
There are 3 ‘unto him’ in that verse.
3 αὐτός autos all referring to Ἰωάννης Iōannēs ‘JoHn. his servant ‘δοῦλος doulos
Rev 1:4
¶
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
1:4 Ἰωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων ἃ ἐστιν ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ
Jesus IS GOD !!
From Him Which Is
and which was
and which is to come!!
Rev 1:4
¶
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
1:4 Ἰωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ τοῦ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων ἃ ἐστιν ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ
Jesus IS GOD !!
From Him Which Is
and which was
and which is to come!!
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1:8 Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὁ παντοκράτωρ
Please note ‘THE ALMIGHTY’
παντοκράτωρ
WHICH IS
AND WHICH WAS
AND WHICH IS TO COME
THE ALMIGHTY!!!!
I AM ALPHA
AND OMEGA,
I AM THE BEGINNING
AND THE ENDING
SAITH
THE LORD!!!
JESUS IS GOD!!!!
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1:8 Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Α καὶ τὸ Ω ἀρχὴ καὶ τέλος, λέγει ὁ κύριος ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος ὁ παντοκράτωρ
Please note ‘THE ALMIGHTY’
παντοκράτωρ
WHICH IS
AND WHICH WAS
AND WHICH IS TO COME
THE ALMIGHTY!!!!
I AM ALPHA
AND OMEGA,
I AM THE BEGINNING
AND THE ENDING
SAITH
THE LORD!!!
JESUS IS GOD!!!!
Richard you may want to ask marianne to remove your denial from the page.
abigail
I think Richard was posing the academic question
If Jesus is god, then who is the Father? And how can god (giver) give to Jesus (receiver) when Jesus is god (giver)?
Well obviously Richard does not desire his comment deleted. Sad, day!
I must disagree with you marianne.
Richard said “GOD HAD knowledge that Jesus DID NOT HAVE, therefore
Jesus is not omniscient.”
I saying this Richard was saying that Jesus is ‘a counterfeit’.
Sad sad day !!
How far can ‘puffed up pride can go.”
Abigail
He was referring to REv 1:1.
Jesus also said that, regarding his return, that no one knows that time except the Father, indicating the same idea.
I have already discuss rev. 1:1
Richard knows that and so do you.
Richard is in the Almighty Hands of God.
And so be it.
abigail
This is all interpetation. Everyone expresses their own views.
So what is your answer? Who is the Father?
interpret this.
Luke 12:9 but he who denies me in the presence of men will be denied in the presence of the angels of God
your question is not an answer! 🙂
It was a statement and not a question.
I don’t see a question mark.
Jesus said ,”Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”. John, 8: 57-59….Paul said, “HE is the IIMAGE of the INVISABLE GOD…In HIM all the fullness of GOD was pleased to DWELL”… Jesus was fully GOD in HUMAN form….Jesus said “I and the Father are ONE… He who believes in ME, does NOT believe in ME, but in HIM who sent me….I have come as LIGHT into the world, that everyone who believes in ME may not remain in darkness” John 12: 44-46…God is not a confusing God. It’s easier to understand if it is not over analyzed by human reasoning…. Shalom…
hi elle
thought question
is an image the same thing as what it is an image of?
Abgail.
Look back …. I specifically asked you this…..
“So what is your answer? Who is the Father?”
in the beginning created God בראשית ברא
I Am That I Am
Hi Abigail,
Would you like to go through this step by step,
using sound reasoning, which God instructed us to do.
Here is an example:-
If Jesus is all-knowing, then why was it necessary
for God to reveal the Book of Revelation to him ?
You may not realize it, but what you are saying is that
Jesus already knew the Book of Revelation
BEFORE it was revealed to him, if you believe he is God.
This is just one of many examples I can offer, to show
that Jesus cannot possibly be God. This is not an academic exercise. I truly believe that our salvation depends on our understanding of who our saviour Jesus is.
If we believe Jesus to be God, then we have completely
invalidated the magnitude of his sacrifice and suffering, because failure would have been impossible.
The fact that Jesus could have failed, makes his victory
SO RESOUNDING, that our gratitude should be as such, that
we should have no reservations in being prepared to
suffer and labour for him, as he commanded us to do,
knowing that the eventual reward will far outweigh the
sacrifices we have to make. Are we prepared to do this,
knowing that we can’t fail, if we put our total trust in God ?
Jesus was rewarded with a higher position in heaven,
after his resurrection, and now sits at the right hand
of God…..Eph 1 20:21….Phil 2:9-11. In view of this, is there anyone who can honestly say that God and Jesus are one and the same ?
Our God is not one of mystery and confusion, so why do
we insist on making a mystery out of something which is
so simple? God is the father and Jesus is the son, and
they are sitting side by side just as a father and son would, JUST AS GOD SAYS THEY ARE !!
Would you like to continue this discussion in a befitting
manner? As you are a keen researcher, you may be interested to know that there is uncertainty as to the
validity of the ALPHA & OMEGA renderings in Rev.
This has to do with the original texts from which they
were taken. Worth looking into!!
I’ll leave it to you.
God bless.
I can’t believe I am answering this!
The Lord rebukes you Richard!
No.,an image is a “similitude”, representation, imitation..OF…We need to look a little deeper… There is no claim of a physical image…God has NO face…God is personafied through Jesus, in that case Jesus can be God, but, it is the Father & Son united, One…
You say ‘God has NO face’!!
One day you will see His Face
and regret terribly your words!!
Abigail,
I am prepared to be rebuked for the sake of the truth,
if this should prove to be necessary !!
maybe these passages will help….the Father and Jesus, united in purpose, but separate persons.
–
–
–
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
–
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
–
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
–
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
–
Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
–
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
–
1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
–
2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
–
2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
–
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
–
Tts 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour
–
Hbr 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
–
Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
–
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
–
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
*** Jesus was “made?”
Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
–
1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
–
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
What I think is interesting in all these verses, is that just the Father is called God, and Jesus Christ is called Lord. Only the Father is called “God.” Jesus is called the Son of the Father, but not God. Not one time is Jesus called God.
Jesus IS IN GOD … THEREFORE He IS GOD!
AND GOD in HIM therefore HE IS GOD!!!
EXCELLENT! Thank you…I rest my case…:)
As far as I know you don’t have a case!
Marianne,
Hi hope you are well.
John 1:1 “In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.”
Recall the times the Bible were written. The Roman Emperors thought themselves as god and called themselves lord. Thus Christians were persecuted unto death for refusing to say “Nero is lord.” To do such would be a blasphemy for only “Jesus is Lord.” Thus you have proven exactly what you have desired to contradict. Lord means God.
Note the Hebrew word for God in Genesis is plural. John in writing his gospel mimicked Genesis.
John chapter 5:18 “but he was even calling God his own Father making himself equal with God.”
Mark 2 “Who can forgive sins but God alone?”. Yet Jesus forgives sins.
Isaiah 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the Earth for I am God and there is none else. I have sworn by myself the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Romans 14:10-12 “…for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Phillipians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth. And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Acts 10:25-26 Paul and Barnabas refuse to be worshipped.
Revelation 19:10 and 22:9-10 John attempts to worship the angel and is told to worship God.
Jesus is worshipped! Mark 5:6 by the formerly demon possessed man, Luke 24:52 by the eleven apostles, John 9:38 by the healed blind man, Mathew 2:11 by the wise men, Mathew 8:2 by a leper, Mathew 9:18 by a certain ruler, Mathew 14:33 by Jesus’ disciples, Mathew 15:25 by a woman of Canaan, Mathew 28:9 by Jesus’ disciples and Mathew 28:17 by the eleven disciples.
Who is the Word?
Why is God plural in the begining?
What did Lord really mean at the time?
Who can forgive sins but God?
Why does Jesus fufill Isaiah’s prophecy that every knee shall bow before Him and confess Him as Lord when this is clearly talking about God?
If we are to only worship God why did Jesus allow himself to be worshipped when Paul, Barnabas and an Angel all refused? There are 11 instances that Jesus is worshipped.
Well this is only off the top of my head for now.
Love,
John
this is “off the cuff” but it is a middle east practice, with both Jews and Arabs, to use what is called the “majestic plural”….it is recognized by the plural noun with a singular pronoun or singular verb.
in genesis, Elohim is used with a singular pronoun at times, and a plural pronoun at other times. Both Genesis and the Quran make God plural, but is meant to be the majestic form.
There are 2 Words…..the source of the Word, who is the Father….and the administration of the Word, who is the son.
It was the Father’s will that Jesus be empowered to do the will of Heaven on earth. Jesus was divine, as his Father was divine. But Jesus also said that his Father was greater than he was……so there is a lack of equality indicated.
Correction!!
Jesus IS !!
Marrianne,
Hope you are well.
Nobody every claimed equality between Jeusus and the Father.
There are many other scriptures that I could bring up and probably will do so in time.
But you have not answered John 1 where the Word is clearly called God.
And Jesus was worshipped, and the Bible clearly teaches we are to only worship God.
Now if Jesus is not God as you contend then please tell me what exactly was He?
Philipians 2:6-7 “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man.”
Colossians 2:9 “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
John 20:28 Thomas calls Jesus “My Lord and my God.” Does Jesus rebuke him? No verse 29 “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed, blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
Marianne, your only evidences that Jesus is not God is that He is called Lord. Since the Hebrews took that Lord to mean God you have presented zero evidence the Jesus is not God. In fact you have established the Jesus is God.
Love,
John
hi John
I was referring to the Catholic view….sorry, I should have made that clear. The trinity doctrine, as taught by Catholics, is that the son and father and spirit are equal in all ways. Since Jesus said the father was greater than he was, then this cannot be true.
remember the Father is the Word also….and the Father is God. As he is the son of the Father, who is divine, then he is divine also.
Jesus is the son of God.
Marianne,
Hi hope you are well.
Where do you get that the Father is the Word?
I’d like to see scripture for that one. The reason why God is referred to as Father and Son and Spirit is that they have different roles.
Adonai, the Hebrew translated Lord, means God.
You have not addressed my scriptures as of yet.
Love,
John
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things…..”all things” would include the Word………
John 3:31-36
He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all.
32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard, yet no one receives his testimony.
*** God is the source of the word that Jesus, and the spirit, bears witness to.
33 Whoever receives his testimony sets his seal to this, that God is true.
34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
***The word originates with God, and Jesus, and the Spirit, repeats it to us.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 5:30, “I can of mineself do nothing: as I hear: I judge: and my judgement is just: because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me”….Jesus denies divine qualities, He forgives sins, (etc) by the power given to Him by the Father…..Mathew, 27:46, “And in the 9th hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice…My God why hast thou forsaken me?”…if Jesus was God, HE would have had to cry, “Myself, Myself, why hast thou forsaken me?”……There are verses where Jesus also claims divine qualities at times, but look at the circumstances, doesn’t mean He is claiming to be GOD…
Do NOT MOCK!!
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
2Cr 4:6
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
This is NOT a mockery…it is a hypothetical example found in some Christain studies, to make a point…what else could Jesus say IF He was God himself on the cross..?
It is MOCKING and blasphemous and hypocritical and utterly terrible!!
I can’t believe what I read here!!
Truly by their fruits you shall know them!
The Lord had shown me a basket with terribly rotten and ugly onion type fruits …
I had no idea He was showing me ‘some of you’.
Abigail
No one is mocking here. People here love jesus, trust Him for their salvation, and are presenting their opinions of doctrine.
This is a finely distinct point. There are different doctrinal viewpoints, all based on scripture.
The questions here are
Who is Jesus, and
who is the Father?
From what i see, you say Jesus is God, but not son of God?
If Jesus is God to you, then is the Father God also?
Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, or different persons?
I am trying to figure out what your beliefs are, so I can understand your comments better.
thanks
Hi John, Hope you are well.
RE: John 1:1. This is a corrupt translation. If you do some
research on this, you will find that there is widespread
disagreement amongst Greek scholar as to what the correct
rendering should be!! Wish you well
Marianne,
I have told you all along ….
I ask that all of your hearts be open.
I do not teach you a strange doctrine.
In Jesus own words.
Hear that you may live.
Jhn 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
hi abigail
can you clarify the answers to the questions I asked of you?
thank you
In regards to God has no face… The bible teaches us that God the Father has no physical body…Matt 4:23-24 God is SPIRIT. Jhn 6:46 JESUS says NO one has seen Him. He is invisable….God the Father is SPIRIT and has no physical form…
Then who sits on the Great White Throne if God has no face??
Rev 20:11
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 22:4
And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Also Jesus answers His Disciples when asked to show them the father.
He that sees me have seen The Father.
Challenging scriptures- 🙂
***only the son has seen the Father…..he sees himself?
*** Father and son seem to be 2, not one
***the Father sent the son, the son did not send himself
** no one has seen the face of the Father…..so is Jesus is the Father, how is this so, since we can see the face of Jesus?
this is to make things interesting…… 🙂
Just to make things Really REALLY interesting 🙂
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
in Hebrew text it says…..
For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us,and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; the Wondrous advisor, Might God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar- Shalom [Prince of Peace].
fulfilled in the days of the child of Ahaz, the righteous king Hezekiah- whom the wondrous adviser, mighty God, Eternal Father – called Prince of Peace.
Wrong 🙂
Wesley’s Notes
9:6 For – Having spoken of the glorious light, and joy, and victory of God’s people, he now proceeds to shew the ground of it. Us – Unto us Jews, of whom Christ was born, and to whom he was primarily sent. A child – The Messiah by the consent of interpreters, not only Christian, but Jewish: for so the ancient Hebrew doctors understood the place, and particularly the Chaldee paraphrast; although the latter Jews, out of opposition to Christ, wrest it to Hezekiah. Which extravagant conceit, as it hath no foundation in this or any other text of scripture, so it is fully confuted by the following titles, which are such as cannot without blasphemy and nonsense be ascribed to Hezekiah, nor indeed to any mere mortal man, as we shall see. Is born – Or, shall be born, as the prophets generally speak. The government – Of God’s people, to whom he is given. Shoulders – Upon him, or in his hands. He mentions shoulders, because great burdens are commonly laid upon men’s shoulders. His name – This is not to be taken for a description of his name, but of his glorious nature and qualities. Wonderful counsellor – And so Christ is, because he hath been the counsellor of his church in all ages, and the author and giver of all those excellent counsels delivered not only by the apostles, but also by the prophets, and hath gathered and enlarged, and preserved his church, by admirable counsels and methods of his providence, and, in a word, hath in him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, Col 2:3. Mighty God – This title can agree to no man but Christ, who was God as well as man, to whom the title of God or Jehovah is given, both in the Old and New Testament. And it is a true observation, that this Hebrew word El is never used in the singular number, of any creature, but only of the almighty God. The father – The father of eternity. Who, though as man he was then unborn, yet was and is from everlasting to everlasting.
I have come to think that it matters not in what language I speak you do not HEAR.
And So therefore you do not fear.
I have spoken to you in english, in hebrew, in greek and in numbers and still you do not comprehend.
I have used scripture after scripture and the Scripture does not contradict itself …
and still you are stubbornly not hearing.
I will answer each one of your question … still I know you will not hear and so therefore you.
1.Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, or different persons?
A. The same
2. If Jesus is God to you, then is the Father God also?
A. Jesus is God there is no ‘if’.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last.
3 . From what i see, you say Jesus is God, but not son of God?
A. In the Above ‘Heaven’ Jesus is God.
In the below ‘ earth ‘ Jesus is God.
In under the worlds ‘ hell’ Jesus is God. There is no where that Jesus is not God.
In the Universe Jesus is God.
There is but ONE GOD. His throne is everlasting!
In the hurricane Jesus is God.
In the sea Jesus is God.
In the womb Jesus is God.
From eternity to eternity Jesus is God.
4. Who is Jesus, and
who is the Father?
A. God!
ok..I got it….that is what I thought….I wanted to be sure….thanks.
Yes, I hear you….sometimes when people are discussing things with each other, I only briefly look over what is said. I get about 100 comments a day. I usually just answer when someone writes directly to me.
You are a Oneness denomination. Others are Trinitarian. That is the reason for the differences in views.
I don’t understand what you are speaking of.
But I will add this …
Luk 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
How dare you have placed me in a category!
I hope you are satisfied.
abigail
I am answering you offline.
Hi Elle,
Thanks for your quality supporting comments !!
The truth really is so simple, and this is not surprising
as Jesus commanded us to be as “little children”.
God bless you
Abigail,
There appears to be no rationale to your arguments.
Is it because in your heart you know we are talking
sense, but you are fearful of contemplating a radical
change in your thinking…..Just a suggestion.
Remember, the truth will make you free.
God bless.
Perhaps the following will help you understand…The bible is full of metaphors and figurative speech. In speaking of God’s finger, hand, arm, etc, it is symbolic of actions or the essence of God. It is not to be taken literally…Matt 16:17 God the Father is not flesh and blood. In Jhn 6:46, as I mentioned above, JESUS is speaking. Jesus is TRUTH, it is not a debate. We are not free to impose allegorical interpretations of scriptures. Ex: the bible speaks of God’s wings. God is not fowl, bird, or any other being with wings. God is SPIRIT…
The finger of God means the authority of God.
But You don’t have to believe me.
Marrianne,
The rest of 1 Corinthians 8:6 “and one Lord Jesus, by whom are all things,and we in Him.” IT says the same thing about the Father and Jesus.
No the Father IS NOT THE WORD. The Word becomes flesh.
None of you have answered why Jesus is worshipped if He is not God when clearly the Bible says to worship only God.
Love,
John
hi john,
I apologize for giving you such a quick answer. You deserve a better one. It was late when I answered. Give me some time. If you do not hear back within the next day, write back and remind me. I have flagged your comment, so I will come back to it.
Abigail, My comment above was meant to be addressed to you…it is my response to your comment about not undestanding what I was saying.
Hi Richard, How sweet! Thank you & you are welcome! I am happy you found my comments in that light..! That is my intention! We are all in this together. I agree, the answers are simple. As children of God we are to have infinite faith in God’s wisdom…makes me think of Psalm 131, In Childlike Faith! I appreciate your comment very much.. God Bless you too!
Hi Marianne, Thank you! Elle p.s. i’ve been having the same reply-send issues all day! Finally got through! Sorry my comment is so late. 🙂
Hi John,
All your questions will be answered comprehensively.
Please bear with us, as time is scarce for some
of us.
Just a thought: A few days ago, you agreed that Jesus
IS NOT all-knowing, so therefore cannot be God.
If you still agree to this, why are you now insisting
that Jesus is God. Does not this scripture alone confirm
that Jesus and God are two distinct persons ?
How would you explain REV 1:1 ?
This is a self-evident truth. It must take priority
over issues of translation like John 1:1 for example.
You simply cannot negate an absolute truth, however you
try. Having established such a truth, it is pointless
trying to undermine it’s integrity by diverting
attention towards what appear to be contradictions,
hoping that the meaning of the truth will fade in the
process, so that the desired view will take precedence.
Let’s approach this with a sincere desire to establish
truth.
It is important to note here, that the so-called
“cast iron” scriptures used to support the “trinity”
are usually quoted out of context or have been corrupted
in the translation process, deliberately, in order to
support the teaching of a pagan, triune God , namely
the “trinity”
All will be revealed.
God bless.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
What is God? God is Love. Just because Jesus does not know everything does not mean he is not God. Just because God has different personalities does not mean there is more than one God. The Bible speaks of marriage and says the two shall become one.Than what is man and wife, two individuals or one?
Revelation 1:1 simply uses God to refer to the Father. To really get into this one must look at the Greek which will take some study. But this does not say that Jesus is not God only tha God showed Jesus things.
Let me tell you this about God and yourself Richard. There was a time where there was no Richard and no thought of Richard in God’s mind. You Richard are not eternal. Therefore there was a time when God did not have any thoughts of Richard in His mind at all. Would you then say God is not all knowing.
As far as saying John 1 is not scripture I reject that. I have heard the same thing about Mark 16 and in the Book of John where the woman is caught in adultry. It is conveinant to dismiss scriptures one doesn’t like as not being authentic. Let me throw out this idea to you. God is both all powerful and all Loving. God is Love. Thus it is certainly with the realm of reason that God can deliver His Word into our hands they way he intended it to be. To think otherwise would be doubting God’s power and Love.
As far as establishing your point of view, it is my opinion you have not done this in the slightest bit. If you call bringing up scriptures, diverting attention, then you should return to the basics. I base my faith on what the scripture says and that alone.
I have produced many scriptures proving the diety of God. Until you show me a Biblical refutation than you have done nothing accept add to the confusion.
Let’s go back to worship. Worshipping anything other than God is called idolatry. If a man loves money more than God he is an idolatory. Now God is a jealous God and will have no other false god’s worshipped. God humbled the gods of Egypt as well as many other lands. Scripture says twice in Revelation to worship God alone. Paul and Barnabas refused to be worshipped. Yet eleven times Jesus was worshipped.
Use simple logic. Only worshipping God is correct. People worshipped Jesus. Jesus accepted worship. Therefore Jesus is God. If Jesus was not God he sinned in accepting worship. Yet Jesus was without sin!
Love,
John
Abigail,
RE Isaiah 9:6….The term “Mighty God” in this verse
should have been rendered;- “Mighty one” or
“Mighty warrior”
This has been deliberately mis-translated. Research it !
Jesus is referred to as “Everlasting Father” as he is
the father of “spiritual Israel” due to the new covenant
established by his death. Abraham was the “father” of
Natural Israel.
God bless.
Matthew Henry’s Concise Commentary
9:1-7 The Syrians and Assyrians first ravaged the countries here mentioned, and that region was first favoured by the preaching of Christ. Those that want the gospel, walk in darkness, and in the utmost danger. But when the gospel comes to any place, to any soul, light comes. Let us earnestly pray that it may shine into our hearts, and make us wise unto salvation. The gospel brings joy with it. Those who would have joy, must expect to go through hard work, as the husbandman, before he has the joy of harvest; and hard conflict, as the soldier, before he divides the spoil. The Jews were delivered from the yoke of many oppressors; this was a shadow of the believer’s deliverance from the yoke of Satan. The cleansing the souls of believers from the power and pollution of sin, would be by the influence of the Holy Spirit, as purifying fire. These great things for the church, shall be done by the Messiah, Emmanuel. The Child is born; it was certain; and the church, before Christ came in the flesh, benefitted by his undertaking. It is a prophecy of him and of his kingdom, which those that waited for the Consolation of Israel read with pleasure. This Child was born for the benefit of us men, of us sinners, of all believers, from the beginning to the end of the world. Justly is he called Wonderful, for he is both God and man. His love is the wonder of angels and glorified saints. He is the Counsellor, for he knew the counsels of God from eternity; and he gives counsel to men, in which he consults our welfare. He is the Wonderful Counsellor; none teaches like him. He is God, the mighty One. Such is the work of the Mediator, that no less power than that of the mighty God could bring it to pass. He is God, one with the Father. As the Prince of Peace, he reconciles us to God; he is the Giver of peace in the heart and conscience; and when his kingdom is fully established, men shall learn war no more. The government shall be upon him; he shall bear the burden of it. Glorious things are spoken of Christ’s government. There is no end to the increase of its peace, for the happiness of its subjects shall last for ever. The exact agreement of this prophecy with the doctrine of the New Testament, shows that Jewish prophets and Christian teachers had the same view of the person and salvation of the Messiah. To what earthly king or kingdom can these words apply? Give then, O Lord, to thy people to know thee by every endearing name, and in every glorious character. Give increase of grace in every heart of thy redeemed upon earth.
hi abigail
this has to do with sentence structure
Subject of sentence – verb – object of verb – adjective
hebrew:
Mighty God – called – him – prince of peace
english translation:
child – is called – mighty God
Hi John,
(answer to question above about who is the Word, and some other issues)
What we have regarding the divinity of Jesus is some fine distinctions being made. I am acknowledging that Jesus is divine. What trips us all up is how we distinguish the substance of the divine from the titles we give it.
I am presenting what is my opinion, based on scriptures. This does not mean I am perfect or correct. But I, like many, try to reason through some things that seem to be mysteries of the Word.
You raised multiple issues….I addressed 4 of them…just to keep it “short”…..we can talk about more later….the Word of God has so much “meat” to it that we can talk forever about it!
1. Can someone be divine and not have the “title” of God?
I think yes……throughout the OT, the Father God made himself known. He was all powerful, and no one could look at his face and live.
The identity of Jesus at this time seemed to be linked to the angel of the Lord, who was also the captain of the Lords’ army, leading Joshua into battle, and saving the 3 Hebrews from the fiery furnace. He also appeared in the burning bush as an angelic figure alongside God, who was in the bush.
At this time, the only one who was acknowledged “officially as God” was the Father.
Jesus was also described as the Son of Man in Daniels visions, and by the Babylonian king when he saw Jesus in the furnace with the Hebrews. Jesus was apparently also very powerful, and divine, but his full role had not yet been fulfilled.
Once he fulfilled this role, Jesus would be further elevated to the right side of the throne of Father God, and be given all power to rule heaven and earth.
This would happen after his resurrection.
2. Question – can God only be worshiped, or does God allow the worship of his Son.?
I would say that not only the Father God is worshiped, but Jesus also, as the Son of God, as this is the will of the Father. Regarding the “title” of God, it goes to the Father, and the “title” Son of God goes to Jesus.
Here is a comparison.
A king has a son. Both are royalty. Both we give homage to. But only one has the title of King. The prince is also royalty, and we give homage, but he does not have the title of King, only prince.
So Jesus does not have the official title of God, but he is still worshiped as God’s son. He is still divine, as his Father is divine, just as the prince is royalty, just as his father is royalty.
3. While on earth, and before his resurrection, was Jesus equal to God, or as powerful as God? I would say no here.
Jesus said that the Father was greater than he was. This indicates inequality.
Jesus never personally said to people, “I am God,” even if he did accept worship. He kept saying he was either the Son of Man, or the Son of God, or a prophet. He kept himself below the Father in stature.
This also indicates inequality.
In Matt 6: 9+ Jesus directs us to pray to the Father, not him
4. Who is the Word?
I think you have to go past verse one to see what is being said.
See here:
Jesus was called the Word, because he was the Word in the flesh. But where did the Word come from that he delivered?
*** Jesus “hears” the Word of the Father, and as he hears, he speaks and judges.. his source is the Father……
*** Jesus gets His words from his Father
Marianne,
Hi hope you are well.
You have not addressed all that I have written. I understand that is difficult and answer are not always readily available. None of us have perfect knowledge so hopefully we can all come together in a Spirit of humility and Love.
Let me go back to the worhsipping of Jesus. Jesus is divine was your answer. Yet the scriptures clearly state that we are only to WORSHIP GOD.
No other being beside the Father or the Son is worshipped. WE ARE ONLY TO WORSHIP GOD. JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED.
Can we agree on this. Jesus was sinless. Jesus could do miracles unlike any other. Jesus had the fullness of the God head dwell inside of Him. JESUS WAS WORSHIPPED.
You see before you made an argument when Jesus was called Lord and the Father God. I contended that Lord at that time meant God. You disagreed. Yet you paid careful attention to the words.
Yet scripture says only to Worship God. Angels are divine are they not? We should not worship angels. The angel refused to be worshipped. Paul denies worship saying “I am only a man.”
Now Jesus is called many times the Son of God and the Son of Man. Both titles referring to diety.
So tell me why Jesus was worshipped? We are to WORSHIP GOD alone. Read Revelation 19:10 Read Revelation 21:9.
Love,
John
hi john,
I realize I did not answer everything at once. I was trying not to make the answer too long. I figured if we resolved a few things, then we could move on to other points.
Jesus came in the fullness of his Father, who is God. People worshiped the God in Him, and as the son of God. He carried the glory of God on him. It permeated him. Jesus was not as the angels but above them. THe substance of his person was the same as the substance of the Father, so he is worthy of worship.
example. if you had a very large piece of paper…..it is made of a substance. suppose you tore off a small piece of it, and then examined it. it is still the same substance, yet in limited amount.
so when people saw Jesus, they saw his substance, as being the same as the substance of the Father. In this sense, Jesus is “God,” as he possesses the same substance as his Father, yet he admits he is lesser than his Father. There can only be officially one with the “title” of God. On the other hand, Jesus did not use the “title” of God to refer to himself. He preferred to call himself the son of God, to show he was a limited representation of the Father in heaven.
it is the divine holy substance of God that is worthy of worship. Both the Father and the son possessed this substance. The angels do not have this substance, but are created beings of a lesser substance.
the bible also says there is only one God. So if we use the title of God for Jesus, then the Father cannot be called God also. this leads to more confusion.
Jesus is the Son of God, who is divine, and of the same substance as his father, God, and he reflects the substance of his father to others, as he is of that same substance. As the Father is said to be the greater one, he gets the official title of God, yet he shares his glory with his son, and it is his will that his son be worshiped as well.
Only God, and his substance, is worshiped. Both the father and son share this.
does this make any sense to you?
Marianne,
Hi hope you are well.
That was a very good answer but lets look at it deeper.
First of all a better analogy then paper would be light. I like to think of the Father as the Sun and Jesus as a ray of light. That is more scriptural.
Now what is God? God is Love. Jesus is the Word. Jesus is not equal to the Father. The scripture refers to Him, Jesus as the Son of God. More exactly the “only begotten Son of God.”
Now Jesus was there when the universe was being created. God spoke, (the Word) and it came to pass. Genesis 1. Now Jesus is the Word. John 1 clearly talks about Jesus being the Word as the Word became flesh.
I think the best thing that you could do is to read the book of John slowly and carefully. Examine all the claims that Jesus makes and then contemplate their signifigance.
Let’s take John 14:6 one we should all be familiar with. “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man come unto the Father but by me.”
Examine how the Bible uses the word way. There is the way of Baalam which leads to destruction. Jesus lived how we should live. What is truth? Clearly Jesus and all the Words that he spoken. It says that God cannot lie. What is life? Death is existance without God and is found in Hell. Life is only with connection with God.
Jesus because of humility did not call Himself God but rather the son of God.
Marrianne, I believe you are almost there. Contemplate prayerfully and what God really is. We worship God only. If it was only the substance in Jesus that we worship then Paul should have been worshipped as well.
You are a scientist. If you take Carbon, whether it is a diamond or a single molecule it is still Carbon. God the Father and the Son of God are both God but not identical.
Love,
John
Excuse me John please…
You say ‘Now what is God? God is Love.’
Just thought to expose a few other characteristics of God is.
God is Spirit.
God is Holy.
God is Terrible.
God is Judge.
God is Life.
God is Truth.
God is the Resurrection.
God is The Eternal.
God is a Consuming Fire.
Out of well over 1,000 characteristics of God …
I have always wondered why there is always only the one mentioned?
And even while we say God is Love, it certainly does not signify this very carnal and finite love that man know.
And another point I would like to mention…
You say ‘Jesus lived how we should live.’
Let me add that ”’jesus lives so we can live.’
Thanks John.
May I help a little …
The Lord knows the little for He is indefinitely small.
From Everlasting to Everlasting.
From Eternity to Eternity.
In the blink of the eye at His Word All things are changed.
At His Word all creatures in Heaven and the Earth and under the Earth fall on their faces.
At His Breath the Universe is created.
All I can do is help a little.
A great pearl is only formed by the tiniest grain of sand.
Let me be that irritant grain of sand for you.
And let me say this …
Instead of trying to comprehend The Sonship of God as ‘matter’,
maybe we should think of This Magnitude which permeates
the All matter as a moment in time.
An instance Holy and True.
A revelation of ‘The Holiness is to The Lord’.
🙂 Had to smile at this thought. ‘We may end up with quantum physics.’
A suggestion … say it to yourself ‘Jesus is God’ … and see if that not feels great.
Maybe in no time at all you will be declaring Him at the fullness of your lungs and mind capacity. 🙂
Marianne
First you say that Jesus came in the fulness of the Father who is God.
Then you contradict your statement and say, comparing to a piece of paper that Jesus …
being the same substance, yet in a limited amount.
Do you see the contradiction?
Now I am not being mean pointing this flaw in your analogy but it doesn’t hold water.
Jesus specifically said that if He bore witness to Himself, His witness would not be true. (wouldn’t hold water 🙂
Rather it is Heaven that bears witness of Him.
‘This is my beloved Son’
Jesus speaking of His life says … ‘I have power to lay it down and I have power to pick it back up.’ Of this we know Jesus was speaking of His death and resurrection.
Yet the scriptures says that God raised Him up.
He said I have power …
abigail
I am not self contradictory. You just did not understand my point.
an ambassador can come to a foreign country in the name of his president. He comes in the fullness of the office which sent him. But he is NOT the president. The president is the source of his authority.
just as the Father God is the source of the authority of that Jesus brought with him.
heaven sent Jesus to earth with authority to do his mission here. so the source of the power that Jesus had was the Father god in heaven, who sent him.
An ambassador is what the apostles are.
Jesus is the heir.
The Heir of Heaven.
Hi Marianne, I’ve been trying to get a comment through, same problem as before. So, I am testing before I type it again & loose it again! Elle
HI Marianne & John! I’ve been looking for possible answers too..Why is Jesus worshipped? Possibly because God the Father wanted Him to be…Heb 1: 6-9…6: But when He again brings his firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels worship Him.”…7: And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”…8: But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, a scepter of your righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom…9: You have loved righteouness and hated lawlessness, therefore God, Your God has annointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions.” Jesus has the qualities of the divine and He is above the behavior of the flesh, more than His companions…Since God the Father called His Son God, wouldn’t Jesus be worthy of worship?…Heb 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. We are not worshipping 2 Gods, more on that tomorrow! Blessings!
From Gospel of Thomas:
13. Jesus said to his disciples, “Compare me to something and tell me what I am like.”
Simon Peter said to him, “You are like a just messenger.”
Matthew said to him, “You are like a wise philosopher.”
Thomas said to him, “Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like.”
Jesus said, “I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended.”
And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, “What did Jesus say to you?”
Thomas said to them, “If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you.”
Gavriel,
Hi hope you are well.
The gospel of Thomas?
Oie Vey!!!!!!!
Love,
John
http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm
Hi John, Abigail and Gavriel.
Please go to the above link to see conclusive proof that
John 1:1 has been incorrectly translated in most of the
popular versions of the Bible. This proves that the Word
is NOT God !!!
Gavriel,
WHY ARE YOU QUOTING FROM AN APOCRYPHON BOOK ?!!!
DON’T YOU THINK THAT THIS IS RATHER IRRESPONSIBLE OF
YOU, KNOWING WHAT GOD SAID ABOUT ADDING AND SUBTRACTING
FROM HIS WORD. DO YOU PRESUME TO KNOW MORE THAN GOD ?!!!
Don’t mean to butt in here Richard but… who decided not to include the gospel
of Thomas or other gospels??
There were 12 Apostles all witnesses to Our Lord.
To my understanding they are all valid.
The R.C.C. has done enough damage and still tries to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.
Incredible … The Pope now Ratzinger is in their view more like God!!
It angers me so when I know how much they hate the Jews…
And for the reason that Yeshua is hebrew … they just can’t stand the thought.
The Jesuits and their black pope are all luciferians !!!
Richard,
Only Torah is the WRITTEN form of the Living God.
Jesus Christ is the fulfilment in flesh of Torah.
As for gospels, it is the Church that canonized gospels, not God,
it is God that helped to preserve His testimony, that includes The Dead Sea Scrolls and Gospel of Thomas.
Apostle Paul didn’t need gospels to beleive in Jesus Christ, it was a personal revelation to Him (just like many Jews will be revealed to this fact by the time of Jacob’s trouble) …and beleive me, by the time of abomination of desolation majority of Christians will deny Jesus – gospels will not help them to be convinced otherwise – signs and lying wonders of Satan will be more convincing, all crosses will be upisde down and church will be dead. Suppose, can you tell when the star of David is upside down??? Paradoxically, more Jews today are closer to Jesus Christ than Christians, because Torah is the only living word of God.
SHOULD WE WORSHIP JESUS ?
JESUS said, “….the hour is coming and it is now when
the TRUE WORSHIPERS will “WORSHIP THE FATHER” with spirit
and truth,for,indeed “THE FATHER” is looking for suchlike
ones to “WORSHIP HIM”…GOD is a Spirit,and those
“WORSHIPING HIM” ,must worship in spirit and truth.
This is Jesus speaking. He is specifically commanding
us to WORSHIP GOD,THE FATHER.
If we worship Jesus, are we not breaking this
commandment ? Again,we have TWO DISTINCT persons,
who do not share sovereignty.
WHAT MORE NEEDS TO BE SAID ?!!!
In John 10, it is said:
“30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”
Jesus said he was “son of man”, yet he was above all men;
Jesus said he was “son of God”, yet he was above all gods, because – HE IS GOD!
ll Thessa-
lonians 2:7-11 reads: ‘For the mystery of lawlessness is already
working, only he [is] now holding back until it comes out of [the]
midst. And then the lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord
shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy
with the brightness of His coming, whose coming is according
to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying
wonders, and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who
perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so
that they might be saved. And for this God shall send them
strong delusions, that they will believe a lie. ‘
This is:
‘love of the truth’ which Jesus demonstrated, against “all power and signs and lying wonders” which will be demonstrated by Satan;
Reptilian side of the brain (Satan’s consciousness???) cannot understand how a man created from the dust of the earth can be made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis) and be above all angels (Psalms);
Reptilian side of the brain cannot either understand how everlasting God can manifest Himself in a man born of a woman, seed of Yishai;
Gavriel
Reptilian side of the brain ?????
Gavriel,
Please become “childlike” in your faith as Jesus
commanded us to do, and accept that the 66 books that
we have now, what we call the Holy Scriptures/Bible,
is according to the “WILL OF GOD”. God knew the future
when he inspired the scriptures to be written. If He
felt it necessary to add to these,it would have happened
by now, don’t you think ?
The “Word of God” is complete, exactly as God intended it
to be !!
God bless.
Jesus said – not one word will be changed from The Law (Five books of Moses) ; But, he didn’t write a single word while he was on earth – he came to fulfil Torah and become living word of God;
Books of New Testament have different status – they are testimonies of life of Jesus; There is The Law, The Prophets and oral interpretation of the law. In this manner, Gospel of Thomas
cannnot be disqualified, Thomas wrote testimony about Jesus along with other apostles. And how do you know that God intended
New Testament to look like? It looks like how church intended to be.
Gavriel,
Please explain how Jesus’ heavenly status could change
after his resurrection ? It is so evident, in the points
I have previously made, that God and Jesus are two
distinct persons. You have not explained any of these
striking examples, just thrown less convincing scripture
at them. Yes, Jesus and God are one in mind and purpose.
Not once did Jesus say he is God. Do you think a God of
precision and order would have us confused as to the
nature of His being?
It is a Father-Son relationship. The nature and meaning
of these terms are given by God; neither one can be the
other. Yet we have many people who insist that these
terms can take on a different meaning when we talk about
God and Jesus. God does not confound !!
God does confound.
Study a bit more.
Jesus said:
“I and my Father are one.”
And Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy: FOR MAKING HIMSELF GOD;
Not making himself prophet, son of God (scripture calls all Israelites – sons of God), even for not making himself Messiah – the way Jews wanted Messiah to be (like warrior Judah the Maccabee or Bar Kochba);
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
I agree the Father and Jesus are two distinct persons. Yet they are both God. Man and wife are two persons yet they are one.
Read Ephesians, there is a mystery to God. Just because you cannot understand nor explain it does not make it true. I’m sure you can’t explain Quantum Physics but that does not make it less real.
Back to worshipping Jesus. Eleven times the gospels record Jesus being worshipped. Revelation clearly states to worship God.
Jesus was worshipped. Jesus was without sin. Jesus is God.
You can’t get around it.
Love,
John
Gavriel,
Hi hope you are well.
Jews being closer to Jesus?
Which Jews are you referring to? I agree most of Christianity is apostate and serve the god of this world? But I adamently oppose this statement and it makes me believe you are in need of serious instruction in the ways of Jesus.
For example a lot of Christians believe Christians can participate in war. Mathew 5:44 Jesus commands us to Love our enemies. Romans 13:10 Love works on ill.
Therefore when one goes to war and kills they are breaking God’s commands. The Kingdom of Heaven is not of this world! We are pilgrims and sojourners in this world.
Love,
John
John,
Everyone are one in God, if they make throughout the tribulations;
Romans 2:10, ‘But [He will give] glory, honor and peace to every man who works good, to [the] Jew first and also to [the] Greek. ‘
Suppose, Jesus not coming to Judaea, but coming to Rome or Babylon…what would gentiles do? …but, wait a minute, GOD actually came to gentiles and offered them His Law – and they didn’t accept His Torah, as it is written:
Deut. 33:2 “The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads;”
“and shone forth from Seir to them” [Why did He come from Seir?] Because God first offered the children of Esau [who dwelled in Seir] that they accept the Torah, but they did not want [to accept it].”
“from Mount Paran”: [Why did God then come from Paran?] Because He went there and offered the children of Ishmael [who dwelled in Paran] to accept the Torah, but they [also] did not want [to accept it].
The REAL test will be at the end, during abomination of desolation and time of Jacob’s trouble, both Jews and gentiles will be tested with final test, and “on that day his feet shall stand on the mount of olives”, and “they shall mourn for him whom they pierced”, and “all nations shall wait on account of Him”;
Fulfiling God’s commandments is more precious to God than saying “I accept Jesus”.
I was implying that non of us were really tested to see the real picture;
///wail on account of Him.
…some were tested more than others…we call them Saints!
Hi Gavriel,
There was another comment to come before this,but lost
it when I changed pages,anyway…
John 10:30
The Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they thought that
he was claiming to be God, because he said “I and the
Father are one”
In John 17:21-22….The Lord prayed vehemently for the
well-being of his apostles. He asks God that they all
may be ONE, as you Father, are in me,and I in you,that
they also may be ONE in us, that the world may believe
that you sent me. And the glory which you gave to me,
I have given to them,and that they may be ONE,
as we are ONE.
It is obvious that the use of “oneness” in all cases,
means oneness of mind and purpose.
Therefore the Jews misunderstood the connotation of
Jesus’ use of the word.
Richard,
Jews didn’t misunderstood anything, and if they did – Jesus would explain it to them.
Jesus didn’t deny their accusation of MAKING HIMSELF TO BE LIKE GOD.
Joshua 24:19
“And Joshua said unto the people: ‘Ye cannot serve the LORD; for He is a holy God; He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression nor your sins.”
Joshua 24:22
“And Joshua said unto the people: ‘Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve Him.–And they said: ‘We are witnesses.”
Hi John,and Gavriel,
Please explain why Jesus does not know the day or the
hour of his coming ?
Why was it necessary for God to reveal the book of
Revelation to Jesus ?
You can’t have it all ways. If Jesus is God he must
surely know all things ?
Please explain why Jesus is not all-knowing.
The truth is you can’t explain it, that is why you
keep ducking it, correct ?!!
Let me help a little.
What you call the book of revelation can also be called the Scroll of concealment.
Jesus does know the day and the hour.
Jesus is God.
Jesus is ALL Knowing.
I will let Gavriel answer first and then I will speak.
Because I know that ‘The Hour of the Earth has begun.’
P.S. The ‘book of revelation’ was revealed to John as ‘the Revelation of Jesus Christ.’
Even better question would be why Jesus was abandoned by God while he was on the cross.
When God was creating the univers – he was not creating it out of KNOWLEDGE, there was no such thing as knowledge, God created universe out of love.
Jesus was “son of Man” and died as man, and his knowledge didn’t far exceed knowledge of other Jews while Jesus was on His earthly mission. He attoned for sins of humanity and ressurected Himself – out of HIS eternal love, NOT out of his knowledge, Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.
Hi Richard, I agree with you totally. Perhaps my post last night was not clear..?…I was intending to elaborate this evening, but your statement is sufficient enough! There are issues of language, culture, and historical perspectives that have gotten lost or in the way and that is very sad…But there is one God, the Father.His Son, God, is worthy of our praise. I talk to Jesus every moment of my life…I am so thankful that He is with me, I talk to God the Father with every breath I take…The Holy Spirit the same. It isn’t about trinity, etc, it IS about relationship…I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, and Jesus is worthy of my praise…anything not of a kind spirit, in us, which is our gift to receive, is not of God…SIMPLE! Blessings, Elle
“…if ye believe not that I am he,
ye shall die in your sins.”
–JESUS CHRIST, JOHN 8:24
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/jesusgd2.htm
Abigail, For the sake of clarification, Jesus SAYS He does not know the time or the hour…But YOU say HE does (?)…So, therefore, Jesus is not speaking the TRUTH?…Where in scripture is this? This is not the Jesus the bible teaches us about…All I am asking of you is a specific answer to that question. You say Jesus knew but He doesn’t claim that. To say that He knew because He is God is not in the bible anywhere. Thanks!
Did Jesus Not Know the Hour of His Second Coming?
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/know.htm
Jesus knows all things. He knows your thoughts, your intents, your heart.
Jesus is the Son of Heaven. i would add so much more … but I feel you are dull of hearing.
There is coming upon the face of the earth something so frightening that many hearts will fail, at the sight.
Many will call him ‘Great God.’
But he is not God.
And he will take a seat as a man but he is not a man.
There used to be a verse in scriptures that I’ve read before but now seems to have disappeared from new versions.
Any ways from my memory only the verse spoke of ‘one who enters the earth but NOT through the womb of a woman.’
Perhaps some of you remembers the verse?
Anyways he is coming soon … maybe days … and man will be tested.
He will make war with WOMEN. specifically!!
He is comes to kill and he will do just that.
His voice is harsh and he has powers that we know nothing of.
Keep your daughters close by and I don’t know how we can fight him.
But we must!
He has great power but he is not The Lord.
He is not Jesus Christ.
Be not deceived!
p.s. I think he comes with an army but I don’t know for sure.
Remember that knowledge is not found in the halls of darkness.
Maybe you mean this person…this person will soon declare himself “mashiach”, and he certainly is not Jesus Christ!
I had doubt that he could be Mashiach ben Efraim, but I’m not sure anymore, he seems really wicked – all of Israel is full of his banners, he will declare himself in the year 5770.
“The Mashiach is ready for the declaration. The Mashiach is in Israel. The declaration of the Mashiach will take place in Jerusalem, in the western wall (wailing wall).”
http://www.m424.com/86_5_eng.doc
“God warns the orthodox religious women (“חרדיות”) who have begun to dress themselves not in a modest dress, following the naked pornographic dress of the gentile’s women!
In the great judgment day, which is coming soon – the sword of Eliyaho Hanavi and Mashiach Ben David – will strike any woman who is not decently dressed.
The orthodox religious men (“חרדים”) are also guilty, because they also follow the gentiles shameful habits: they also like to look at women’s flesh, like the people of Israel in the desert, who fell into the desire for the Egyptian meat given to them by Pharaoh, the desire for the fleshpot!…”
http://geocities.com/mashiach66/86_1_eng.htm
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
Jesus was not all knowing. He did not know the time of his return. Your insistance that God must be all knowing is something you put on God. The Father is all knowing. Read my previous post.
God is Love. Jesus lived a life that was perfect and was Love.
Now please answer why Jesus was worshipped when only God is to be worshipped. You previous answer that the Father desires worship does not negate the fact that human beings worshipped Jesus.
Love,
John
Hi Richard, I do agree with the issue that Jesus is worshipped, but it depends on how..not seperate from His Father but along side His is Father, as the Son. The diety is a family affair. There are many meanings of worship. Greek and Hebrew translations in the bible are many, too much to go into here but can be easily researched. In the NKJV, Topical Index, page 342, under “Worship”, an act of reverance. Subtitle A) Of God, B) Of Christ by: Angels, Magi, Men, Woman, Disciples, Heavenly Choir…(gives verses for all) The english biblical meaning of worship, doesn’t translate perfectly. To worship, is to have a humble heart, it can be thanksgiving, praise, honor, glory, etc..or merely a bow to show respect for a superior person. Heb 1:4 “Christ Is Superior because of His Diety”… Heb 1-9, is a beautiful passage by the Father God, calling His Son God, I pray you would read it! Heb 8-9 is found exactly in Psalm 45 6-8, the only (2) times in the bible God calls His Son God. What does Jesus deserve from us?
Hi John,
Sorry for the late reply. I live in London so there is
a significant time difference. Also, I was up till 4:00 am this morining doing this. As I have to work,
these sessions can start to take their toll after a
while. I am not able to start until late in the evening
due to other commitments, so my contributions are going
to be spasmodic.
Re: Worship
The Greek word from which “worship” is translated is
PROSKYNEO. It has many meanings relating to reverence
of some kind, of which “worship” is one of them, together
with respect, homage, obeisance,etc.
Where this word appears in the scriptures, it is always
rendered as “worship” regardless of context. This of
course is erroneous, as there many examples in scripture
where a lesser form should have been used, ex. “homage”.
It follows then, that when “proskyneo” is used with reference to Jesus, it is always rendered; “worship”.
This is where the problem lies. Due to the Greek language
being problematic for Bible translators,due to 1t’s
complexities, translators have taken the easy option
and that is to render proskyneo as worship in all cases.
We know only the Father(God)is to be worshiped, so it
follows that, had the translators done their job
properly,it should not have been rendered as “worship” in
reference to Jesus.
God bless.
Hi Elle.
Hope you are well.
God bless.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
I am not a Greek expert having only one semester of it. Yet the exact same Greek word is used in Revelation as it is when they worship Jesus. Thus when the angel says Worship God they are using the same Greek Word that they use when Jesus is worshipped.
I had my semester of Greek at Seton Hall University, I wonder where you learned your Greek?
Love,
John
Hi John, Hope you are well.
I know nothing of Greek.
What I do know is that God is consistent,regardless of
whether men choose to be or not. If He says that Himself only is to be worshiped, then that is exactly what it means, otherwise there is chaos. If men take it upon
themselves, particularly translators,who allow their
preconceptions to influence their work,then we will end
up with this kind of result. For example,God’s name
Yahweh,appears nearly 7000 times in the Hebrew scriptures,yet it almost always is translated as LORD.
The conclusion you have to come to, is that there is an
agenda to conceal God’s name. The main reason for doing
this is to make all forms of Lord interchangeable,so
that the distinction between Yahweh and Yeshua becomes
obscure.
Getting back to this, so if you believe the translators
to be correct, we now have two God’s deserving of
worship, one of which has less knowledge than the other.
Also, we are only to pray to one of these God’s through
the other. Also, one of these God’s is sitting next to
the other God in heaven as we write. Also, one of these
God’s was given increased status in heaven, by the other
one. The One who awarded this increased status,must no
doubt have authority over the other. This suggests that
one is SOVEREIGN. Yet this LESSER God is also SOVEREIGN.
DOES NOT THIS DEFY ALL REASON? And please don’t say that
it is a mystery, beyond human understanding. It is a
mystery because men have made it so !!!!
You can’t get around it John, your numbers do not add up !! This is my last comment tonight. Hear you soon.
God bless.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
Looking further into the matter you error seems to abound.
Mathew 2:11, Acts 10:25-25 and Revelation 19:10 all use the same Greek word for worship. Not only that but in all three cases the worshippers literally fall down to the ground.
Your reasoning is faulty. You start with the premise that only God the Father should be worshipped. Then you say that the Greek word should be translated different for Jesus. Yet in all three of these cases the same Greek word is used and the actions of the worshippers are the same.
If you really want to investigate this to it’s fullest you would get a copy of the Lexicon and examine how worship is used there. Further study of the Greek in other works would be helpful too. I could handle the Lexcion but not the others.
Your arguments are flawed. John 1 is not part of the Bible. The Greek word is translated wrong. The scripture in Isaiah is translated wrong. In all honesty to say such things is beyond any human beings scope to prove. I looked at the context of the worship words. My concordance translates the word as to prostrate oneself in homage. This translation could fit all the instances where Jesus is worshipped. It is an exact fit for Mathew 2:11.
Love,
John
Love,
John
HI Richard, I am well thank you. Thank you for your support on the issue of worship and elaborating further… Hope you are well. Blessings! Elle
Gavriel, Jesus did not know the time and the hour..no one knows but the Father. The Father will announce it, according to the final interpretation that is shown. The analogy used of the wedding makes it clear as well. The bridegroom prepares his chambers, when the father is pleased with the preparations, the father gives the son permission to get the bride…Blessings!.
Abigail, You did not answer my question….Show me where it says Jesus knows In that scripture…or @ least one interpretation supporting your claim…That’s all I asked. Your opinion is just that, changing the subject is no answer…thanks. Blessings
Hi John,
I fully appreciate what you are saying about the context of “worship” with reference to Jesus. But, you can’t get
away from the fact that, it was the Son who commanded us
to worship the Father. It is a simple fact that a Father
and Son cannot share sovereignty. God established this
relationship so that finite humans could easily grasp
the nature of His being as a sovereign God. Our sovereign
God, Yahweh can have no equal, least of all His son.
To say that the Son was worshiped, so therefore must be
the Father, is actually telling God Himself that He has got
it all wrong. So, let’s first consider the possibility of human
error, before we dare to consider the impossibility of Godly error.
God bless.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
You can’t get away from the fact that the scriptures teaches Jesus as God. John 1 is irrefutable evidence.
Now if you want to discredit the Bible that is up to you.
Furthermore I suggest you stop giving Greek lessons when you have no knowledge of the subject. Or at least reference the fact you are trusting other peoples investigations and not your own. Did you investigate all the instances where Jesus was worshipped and examine the Greek. There are books that translate the Greek word for word into the English. While this is not the best method of translation it is an excellent aid to one who does not know Greek. I suggest you do so and then I would be intersted in what you have to say.
Now we are not talking about sovereignty but about being God. In fact the Bible says that Jesus is above all things except the father. 1 Corinthians 15:27 “For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under Him.”
So you argue against God the Father sharing power with the Lord God Jesus. Well Richard the scripture I quoted says that all things are under Jesus with the exception of the Father. So scripture says they share sovereignty. How can they do so? Why because they are both God and are in harmony so they do not conflict. When beings are full of Love as God is they coexist in ways beyond mere humans.
You try to reason with human logic. You give us Richard’s opinion. Your opinion is meaningless and carries no weight. It is the Word of God alone that teaches us about God and His ways. If we relied on our own opinions, and that includes mine, we would have eight billion different views on God, one for every person on God’s green and blue Earth.
So please in the future use scripture. I can respect people who defend their point of view by scripture. I respect people who bring their position with scripture even if I feel they are wrong. At least they are rooted in the Word of God and there is hope for them. Of course I would prove their error only by scripture.
So God the Father and God the son cannot share sovereignty? I have given you a scripture where it says they do. Notice you are correct that God the Father is greater the God the Son. But as far as not sharing sovereignty it is only your opinion.
Love,
John
Hi Elle,
The only possible answer to your question is submission to the
truth. It will take great courage to do this, but the love of
the truth of our saviour Jesus, will hopefully prevail.
God bless.
When the disciples asked Jesus how they should worship, He taught them the Lord’s Prayer….Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name…….this is not a prayer unto Jesus Himself!……Shalom
Excuse me but scriptures say …
Luk 11:1
And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
Notice the disciples were not asking how to ‘worship’ …
they were in fact asking to be taught how to pray.
HI Richard! Amen! To truth! Blessings! Elle
Hallowed be thy name, YAHWEH
………………Hallowed be thy name, YAHWEH…………………
Ribhard, Xes! Yahweh is His name. Another very unfortuate mistranstationusing “God” instead…..Hallelu–YAH means praise Yahweh!…..The video you sent via youtube was beautiful. Thank you…(just what I needed!)….. 🙂 God Bless!l
Richard, Yes! Yaweh is His name. Another unfortunate mistranslation using “God” instead…. Hallelu–YAH means praise Yahweh! The video you sent via youtube was beautiful….Thank you…just what I needed!….:) God Bless Elle
John,
Thanks John, I’ll take your advice and stick to what the Bible
teaches, so I am now going to read everything I have written
to consolidate my love for the truth. !!!
It’s been good “talking” with you.
God bless
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
Glad you weren’t offended by my comments I was worried you’d take it the wrong way.
Here are Jesus words in Mathew 28:18 “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.”
Of course comparing scripture with scripture we know that Jesus does not have authority over the Father. Yet ‘all’ clearly means everything.
I will be awaiting your reply to this and the scripture from 1 Corinthians 15 as they are in harmony and teach that Jesus is sovereign over creation.
Marianne,
You asked me to remind you to address my points made previously if you neglected to do so so I am.
Love,
John
hi john,
Give me a recap of about 2-3 points at a time, so the discussions will be concise but more time for each point. thanks.
I notice the discussion above has been going on quite well. I was away for 2 days. Thanks for the contributions you have made here.
Amazing. There are 285 comments on this page. What a great group of debaters! 🙂
“Pray” would have been the correct word…Prayer IS an act of worship. The Lord’s Praver is an act of worshipping Our Father who art in heaven.,..You haven’t anwered my question…
Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29
My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father’s hand
Jhn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.
Therein is your answer.
And prayer is not an act at all.
Prayer is requesting.
As for worship …
You shall worship in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.
Unless that is all mistranslation of the idiots who knew nothing about nothing …
this is the way it is.
But of course faith is required, and I pray that you eyes be opened.
Elle,
Hi hope you are well.
Yes praying would be an act of worship. But so would be goiing prostrate in submission which is what the word worship means according to the Greek. People worshipped Jesus. We are only to worship God. Jesus accepted worship. Jesus was sinless. Therefore Jesus was God.
John 1 In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Love,
John
hi john,
Forgive me if I am repeating anything. I have been missing for several days.
question: If Jesus is God, and there is only one God, according to scripture, then who is the Father, to you?
In my thinking, you and I are both human, but I am not you. We are “one” in the sense that we are both believers in Jesus, and Jesus prayed that we would be “one” in spirit. But we have our own spirits.
Jesus and his Father are “one” in spirit, but different persons. Like we are both human, they are both “god” in nature. But when it comes to TITLES for their administrative functions toward us, the Father is God, and Jesus is the Son of God.
A lot of what is being said here is very good, but I have concerns about the mis-truths that are peppered throughout. When Christ talked about man who “builds his house” he started with the soil. If you choose to build on shifting sands, your home will be in trouble. In other words, be careful on what kind of theories you build your “belief system” upon. If you choose to build on any theory that is not “rock” your “faith house” will come crashing down. The letters to the seven churches that Apostle John was instructed to write (Rev. 1:12) contained the warnings “not to leave your first love”. These same instructions need to be applied to each of us individually.
KNOW what is that the spirit says, then DO what is says.
Build your life from the SOLID ground. Christ must be the foundation. Build on top of that foundation with TRUTH. The only source is God’s Word!
The Rock is the commandments of The Lord.
Sands are the commandments of men.
The commandments of The Lord are NOT theories, they are the Truth.
The commandments are men are false, anything such as ‘theories, beliefs,
observations etc.’
Hi John, Hope you are well
You’re welcome to say what you like, the worst you will get in
return is a “tongue in cheek” answer, like the one above !!
RE:Matt 28:18… 1 Cor 1:15 ??
Well John, I think this scripture say’s it all !!
All power was given to Jesus by Sovereign God,Yahweh.
Just before Jesus was given this authority, he said to his
disciples,..”I am going to my Father, for my Father is GREATER
than I”…..John 14:28
After he was given this authority,Jesus was seated at the right
hand of his Father….Heb 1:1-3
To confirm the above:..”God raised him from the dead and SEATED
him at HIS RIGHT HAND in the heavenly places, far above all
principality and power and might and dominion……” Eph 1:20-23
Conclusion: Despite the power Jesus was given,it was given to
him by his Father, therefore the FATHER IS SOVEREIGN !!1
And despite this power,Jesus does NOT know the “day or the hour”
of his return. This point started the debate, but sadly it
continues to be evaded, by those who will not accept that Jesus
is Son to his Sovereign Father, Yahweh.
This is the last comment I am going to make.
The above conclusively confirms that the Father is greater than the Son,just as Jesus the Son, says He is.
To say otherwise is beyond all rationale
God bless.
Richard,
I never denied the Father is greater than the Son. That is not the issue. The issue is whether Jesus is God or not.
Put aside your human thinking. God’s thinking is different. We learn God’s think from the scriptures.
We agree from scripture that the Father has place everything under Jesus accept the Father Himself. So Jesus has authority over all but the Father. You previously argued that only the Father was sovereign and therefore the Son was not God. But the Son rules over everything as well, excpet the Father.
You argument is faulty.
Does this make sense?
Love,
John
Hi John,
If the Son rules over everything,except the Father,who made it
possible for the Son to do this ? The Son was awarded a higher
status in heaven. Who awarded this ? I am just repeating what
I have previously said. You just can’t see that there is One
with complete authority, who cannot possibly have an equal.
It is impossible for Jesus to be God.
There is nothing more I can say,or am prepared to say.
God(Yahweh) bless you.
P.S Sorry,..did not wish to sound abrupt.
Hi Richard. The comment you made being your last is very well stated. I cannot comment any further as well. So, I am making my exit agreeing with you! It has been a pleasure “conversing with you. God (Yahweh) Bless You, Elle & Peace to all
Hi Elle, Hope you are well.
Thank you for your kind words, support, and outstanding comments.
I sincerely believe in my heart, that my understanding of the
nature of The Father(God) in relation to His son Jesus, is in
accordance with scripture….However, if it should be that I am
mistaken, I apologise in advance for any comments made, that could
be considered grevious to the Spirit. But as things stand at the
moment, there has been nothing presented in this debate, in my
opinion, that I have not previously encountered, or substantially
challenging enough for me to question my understanding.
I would like to thank all who participated, and for the time and
effort expended.
God(Yahweh) bless you all !!!
Amen.
Explaining the Trinity is an age old theological debate. All human attempts to explain it seem to fail. i.e. comparing the Godhead to that of water, which can be in solid form (ice), vapour form (gas) or in it’s liquid form (Water) or that of an egg, consisting of a shell, yoke and egg-white.
The first description of God in three persons is described in the Genesis account of creation. In Gen. 1:2 the “Spirit” of God was active in moving over the surface of the waters. In Gen. 1:26 God said: “Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness.”
Because God uses the term: OUR, does that not in itself show you that God is complex and made up of more than one part.
What about John 1: 1-18 describing the Deity, Preincarnate work, and Incarnation of Christ.
Christ is indeed God. The Holy Spirit is indeed God. The Father is indeed God.
Ian,
Hi hope you are well.
You should go back into the history of the debate and see all the points that were raised both pro and con to Jesus being God. Actually we never even discussed the Holy Spirit being God as well.
After reviewing those things I would Love to hear your comments and more scriptures you think that could have been used. Iron sharpens iron.
Love,
John
Isa 40:25,26 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.
His thoughts are higher than man.
His days cannot be counted.
He is The Almighty and the Great I am.
Heaven is His Throne.
Earth is His footstool.
From Heaven His Rule is From Everlasting to Everlasting.
The ground is holy whereupon His Feet walks and the latchet of His shoes I am not worthy to unloose.
He who baptizes you with the Holy Ghost and with fire, He is God.
He who created you and He who bore your sins to the death of the cross and He who rose from the grave, He is God.
He who loved you while you despised Him, He is God.
He who clothed Himself in skin, to be whipped He is God.
He who looked down from Heaven and pitied you, He is God.
To what can we likened Him to?
Where is the place of understanding??
Blasphemed yet He remains merciful.
Rejected yet He remains faithful.
My soul cries out to Him and for Him and I ask …
How long will You endure the wickedness of man, O God!?
How long O Lord will you suffer the mockers
And the prideful?
Man has forgotten that You are Judge and the clay has forgotten The Hand that formed it.
There is no Spirit in man and no life in them that denies The Lord.
Hello John,
What I was trying to get at earlier about building your foundation of faith on “the solid rock” has to do with proper understanding of the truth as it is contained in scripture. Unfortunately many people who are “born again” (become Christians) are exposed to very poor or downright false teaching.
Further, the enemies of the truth in the gospel are unbelieving Jews, the legalists of Judaism who refuse to believe that Jesus was God and refuse to abandon their legalistic system of self-righteousness. They are the enemies that appear in the gospel account. The enemies of the truth, however, in the epistles are professing Christians who are led astray by false teachers. They too are the enemies of the truth. The truth has enemies everywhere, outside the church and inside.
New born Christians are easily mislead by false teaching because they have not developed discernment. That is why much is said about “them” in Paul’s letters to Timothy.
Now, John even directly speaks about false prophets, chapter 4 verse 1. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they’re from God because many false prophets have gone out into the world.”
You really can’t be naive about this. You can’t be trusting. False prophets are everywhere. They are the agents of Satan, as we know. And so John speaks about false prophets in very specific terms.
Scripture teaches that behavior is an
important test of faith. Obedience is evidence
that one’s faith is real (1 John 2:3).
On the other hand, the person who remains utterly
unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence
true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy believism
teaches that disobedience and prolonged
sin are no reason to doubt the reality of
one’s faith.
The mystery of the Trinity: the Holy Spirit abides in us (v. 17), Christ indwells us (Colossians 1:27), and God is in us (1 John 4:12). That abiding presence is the source of eternal life. Jesus added, “Because I live, you will live also” (v. 19).
In your dialogue with Richard you bring up very valid points with scripture to back you.
The Jehovah Witness sect, teaches that Christ was “A” god, but not God. (John 1:1) In an attempt to make this credible, they say that the original Greek manuscripts deliberately left out the Greek symbol for “a”, but was later inserted on newer manuscripts.
(I Suspect that Richard is or has been involved in the Jehovah Witness sect. He has not come out and said that, however perhaps he will respond here…)
Properly understood, the doctrine of inerrancy–the teaching that the Bible contains no errors–applies only to the original copies of the biblical documents. The original writings came directly from God through human authors. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic (cf. Genesis 31:46; Ezra 4:8-6:18; 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11; Daniel 2:4-7:28), and the New Testament was penned in Greek. After the Old and New Testament books were written, scribes produced and distributed copies of the original manuscripts. They took painstaking care to craft those copies by hand, long before the days of the printing press.
I apologize for the length of this, but I am convicted to share this.
May God richly bless,
hi Ian,
I think Richard was reasoning this way:
there is only one God
The father is greater than Jesus, according to Jesus
so the “TITLE” of God goes to the Father, not Jesus.
But jesus is still divine, ie part of “godhead”
Hi Ian,
I have just read your comment. You may be interested to
know that Marianne believes as I do, and that is the reason why I come to this website, and she is not a Jehovah’s Witness !!!
I now require an explanation from you,as to to why you have set out to discredit me, by innuendo, and directly, by associating
my views with a particular religion, whom you know to be held in
low esteem by most. If you do believe that I am propagating false
teaching, then please do the decent thing and challenge me
directly.
RE John 1:1 You deliberately used this an an example.
PLEASE DO SOME RESEARCH on this and you will find this has
nothing to do with J.W’s. I provided a link to a creditable
source which shows beyond any doubt that this verse has been
incorrectly translated in most versions of the Bible
I have reason to believe you object to the use of God’s name YAHWEH…Perhaps you would like to give your reasons as to why you feel uncomfortable using it.
Will be back later for answers !!
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
Ian was directing his comments to me and was speaking more in general. I do not think he was associating you as a Jehova Witness. What he says is very sound and good things that every Christian should understand.
In the course of our discussion it was your argument that certain scriptures were in error. I Peter 1:21 “For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by they Holy Ghost.”
An all powerful God who is Love is quite capable of delivering His Word to us in a pure form. Groups such as the Jehova Witnesses have perverted the Word of God by translating with a bias that is apparent to all. When the man who translated the Bible from the Greek was on trial he was asked if he knew the languge.Under oath and threatened by perjury he admitted he didn’t.
Love,
John
Hi John,
Jehovah’s Witness matters are completely irrelevant.
It is a well known fact for many, that John 1:1 has been
translated in several different ways over the centuries.
It is unfortunate that some set out to discredit by deflecting
attention away from scripture. If such a person were sincere in
their quest to impart and share what they believe to be the truth,
then they would certainly avoid making unqualified, and intently
damaging remarks such as Ian’s.
John 1:1, as you know is a key scripture. ..And the Word was;
…divine, god-like, in the form of God, are some of the
acceptable renderings. If you doubt this, I urge you to do
some objective research. I am not a person to make unqualified
statements with regards to such an important matter, and one
which should be handled with the utmost integrity.
Jesus is indeed,divine.
Now all you have to do is prove me wrong on this, and I will
concede that Jesus is God….Conversely, if you should find that
one of the above renderings is legitimate, will you concede that
Jesus is not God ? Even though I have shown that he is not.
It should also be mentioned that many of the early translators
were under duress to “trinitize” the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
If you doubt this, then some research will confirm this.
Hi John,
Here’s one to start you off.
http://www.greeklatinaudio.com/john11.htm
With the coming 5770th year!
This Rosh Ha’Shanah falls on Sabbath, which means that we don’t blow Shofar this year, meaning harsh judgments coming to the world – LORD of Israel, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
May we all be inscribed and sealed for a shana tova u’metukah (good and sweet year), may LORD of Israel sweeten for us all His judgments.
I receive your blessing, Gavriel.
The book of Revelation should be called ‘the Scroll of Judgement.’
May you overcome all adversities this coming year.
And may The Lord look tenderly upon you and yours.
Abigail,
May God bless.
And I forgot to mention – LORD IS A JEALOUS GOD…FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT!
I know … and no one will pluck us out of His Hand.
He fights for us.
and He protects us.
Richard,
Hi hope you are well.
I went to your link and I looked at it. To be honest it has been a long day. My mother is ill with cancer and that puts a strain on me.
A prelimanary look at the article makes me think that what is presented there is beyond my limited knowledge of Greek. I believe I gave away my Greek text books but something like this could motivate me to pursue learning the language again. I will look at it further at the link tomorrow.
However I did look at the works cited. Most of the organizations I did not recognize. I did see the Watchtower organization cited. For many reasons but historical and doctrinal I reject this group as a very heritcal group. I admire their pacifism but other than that I see no redeeming qualities in that organization.
Now it is not that I go along with the majority. I reject the Catholic Church, the Puritans, the Lutherans, the Calvinists, and many others for various reasons. Those groups all have blood on their hands. The Catholics had the inqisition and the crusades. The Purians waged a war of genocide against the noble natives of Ameria. The Lutherans persecuted the Anabaptists. I forget who the Calvinists killed.
Scripture says that “straight and narrow is the way to salvation and few find it while broad and wide is the way to damnation and many walk down it.”
Now you say it is a ‘well known fact’. Well it is a fact that I never heard of except from the Jehova Witnesses. Who also don’t believe in Hell, have a hierarchy of chain of command, believe the Earth won’t be destroyed by fire and will last forever, make people evangelize by door knocking, won’t allow blood transfusions, require all their sermons for a given Sunday to be on the same topic, were founded by an individual of low moral character, don’t allow their members to be involved in politics, won’t salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance, believe that Christ came and established his Kingdom on Earth in 1919, I believe, after they went to the top of hills and mountains to meet Jesus and the leaders needed some excuse to mantain power. So when your source quotes these people it does nothing but discredit that.
If you would like to convince me that it is a disputed topic then present me the groups that contend to that point of view.
I had a very good friend and mentor named Curtis Stamps who knew Greek quite well. He has went on to be with the Lord so I cannot ask him.
A reason I like the NIV is that it was translated by a team of translators, including the Church of Christ, which I belong to. While this does not guarentee purity it is a safe guard.
To quote Stan Lee, ’nuff said pilgrim’.
Love,
John
Dear Richard,
I am deeply sorry that you feel offended. In no means was I attacking you personally, I was only attempting to reveal the truth.
The website that you have now posted twice, is recognized and endorsed by the Watch Tower magazine. That is why I made the comment to John earlier.
My passion is to know the truth.
Jesus said: “if you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:31-32
Sincerely, In Christ
Ian
I thank you both Ian and John for exposing the lie of the Jehovah’s witnesses.
Twisting scriptures as they please to deny The Lord of Lords is no small matter.
Again I thank you much!
May The Lord always use you this way against the enemies of the Gospels.
abigail and others
No one is a jehovah’s witness here. FYI, so you do not get off track with your discussions.
Well I am glad that no one here is a Jehovah’s witness.
And I was not implying that any were.
I was simply thanking two men of God for exposing a lie.
As I have told you before I don’t like pigeon holes for myself and so I do not put any in such.
Forever TRUE!
Jhn 1:1
¶
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος
Amen and Amen!
So if you take this literally, there are 2 Gods.
since
1. the Word was WITH God, …it does not say the Word was by Himself, but WITH someone else, who is God
2. the Word IS God
1 + 1 = 2
I am sorry marianne but you can’t count.
Let me explain it this way, so the simple may somewhat understand.
When I worked in the gold fields … there was a saying amongst us.
We would say that ‘a man is only as good as his word’.
Now a man is one and his word is 2 …
So 1+1 =1
One man and his own word = the same.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Oh yes … and we signed contracts we that word.
And it was binding. 🙂
Or if you want let’s put it this way …
Can a man be separated from his signature?
Is the man 1 and the signature 1 and equal 2 different persons?
Nay they are the same and belong to the same and the 2
= 1 person.
abigail
there is no mention of a signature in John 1:1
this is english, as well as math, and greek too
there are 2 Words in John 1:1
Word #1 is WITH another Word #2
1 + 1 = 2
There is only 1 word in John 1:1
One breath.
The same was in the beginning with God.
The Alpha was with God and the alpha was God.
We could read it thus …
In the beginning was the breath …
and the breath was with God …
And the breath was God.
You cannot separate the breath from God.
Or if you want you can say …
In the beginning was life …
And life was with God
And life was God.
And that is God’s signature.
if A is with B, there are 2 letters.
If I am with you, there are 2 people
If the Word was WITH God,, then there are 2 persons.
this is logical, grammatical syntax.
In the physical and carnal mind and body it seems difficult to go past the physical thinking.
We cannot in the physical think without thinking of bodies.
If I was to say that my breath is the same as me, I could be proven wrong because I breathe air.
But if God says that His breath is His then He speaks the Truth.
The Word is God.
He spoked it.
His Word is with Him and is Him and speaking His word He Creates.
‘Let there be light.’
And light was and is.
As for us being in God and God in us is the same.
Or us being with God and God with us, is the same.
There is but ONE GOD.
The Word is near you even in thy mouth.
marianne, we will continue this conversation after the shabat … if you wish.
shalom
It is not carnally minded to recognize the Father God.
Even Jesus spoke frequently about his relationship to the Father.
God bless you. Shabbat shalom.
Marianne,
Hi hope you are well.
Here is a previous text from me you never dealt with.
Isaiah 45:22-23 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the Earth for I am God and there is none else. I have sworn by myself the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.”
Romans 14:10-12 “…for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
Phillipians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in Earth, and things under the Earth. And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Love,
John
hi john
The Isaiah passage refers to God the Father.
The Father increased the authority of Jesus after his death and resurrection.
Once this increase in stature occurred, Father God granted the same homage to Jesus, as He received in the OT.
–
Marrianne,
Hi hope you are well.
The Isaiah scripture cleary refers to knees bowing and confessing to God. The scripture was fufilled in Jesus. Thus Jesus is God.
Love,
John
hi john
The homage given to God for 2000 years before Christ was given to the Father, not the Son. They did not even know who Jesus was yet. They bowed their knees to the Father…..
Jesus came 2000 years later. He is also entitled to homage, but this does not deny the Father the worship due Him.
Hi Marianne, In the NKJV, some of the names given to Jesus are…(1) Firstborn from the Dead: leads us into the resurrection & eternal life, Col. 1:18. (2) Holy One of God: sinless in His nature, Mark 1:24. (3) Imanuel (God with us): stands with us in all life’s circumstances, Matt 1:23. (4) King of Kings, Lord of Lords: The Almighty before whom every knee shall bow, Rev. 19:16. (5) Lord of Glory: the power and presence Of the living God, 1Cor. 2:8. (6) Mediator between God & man: Brings us into God’s presence redeemed & forgiven, 1Tim 2:5. (7) Only Begotten of the Father: the unique, one of a kind Son of God, Jhn 1:14. (8) Seed of Abraham: Mediator of God’s covenant, Gal 3:16. (9) Son of Man: identifies with us in our humanity, Matt 18:11. (10) The Word: Present WITH God at the creation, Jhn 1:1…… Blessings!
Hi Marianne, I would like to expound on Johns reference to Isaiah 45:22-23.
Isaiah 45:14-25 is talking about Israel’s Restoration, but before we talk about that, lets look more deeply at the Isaiah account.
Isaiah prophesied in the reigns of Kings Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, in the period from 790 to 686 B.C. According to tradition, Isaiah was martyred in the reign of King Hezekiah.
The Book of Isaiah has two important themes. The first thirty-nine chapters dealt generally with judgment on sin, and chapters 40-66 emphasized comfort and restoration.
Isaiah dealt mainly with the sins of his generation, which ultimately reveal Gods’ judgment resulting in the Assyrian captivity of the ten tribes in his lifetime. After Isaiah’s death Judah and Benjamin were placed in captivity by Babylon.
Isaiah 44:24-28. This prophecy is about “Cyrus” who would authorize the rebuilding of the temple after the Captivity. This is a remarkable prophecy by Isaiah as it was fulfilled 150 years later. Cyrus, king of Medo-Persia, who conquered Jerusalem in 539 B.C., in the following year gave the Jews permission to return to their land and build a temple. Is is entirely possible that Daniel, who held a high position in the government of Cyrus, could have influenced this decision. This prophecy is unusual in that the name of the person is given before he was even born! This was also true of Jesus (Matt. 1:21) and Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz (Isa. 8:1-4)
Isaiah 45:14-25 These prophecies that followed went beyond what would happen to Cyrus and anticipated the coming of the Lord in His millennial kingdom. The prophecies of this section await future fulfillment! There is no reference here to God the Father, but to Jesus the Lord!
Again this confirms the idea that Jesus and God are one and the same.
To try to separate the Trinity is an exercise in futility. There is just too much evidence that points to GOD as being all three persons in one. He manifests Himself beyond our human capability to understand this mystery fully.
hi Ian,
My point was that Isaiah’s passage was not exclusive for Jesus. The Jews were only acquainted with the Father. They did not know who Jesus was. Just because we will bow before Jesus, does not mean people were not bowing before the Father beforehand.
THe passage starts out in the present tense, indicating the relationship the Jews had with God at that time. There was no Messiah yet. Yet there may have been a prophetic element to it, as you indicated.
The Bible does not say “God the Father” but that is the only God Jews believed in during the time of Isaiah. Jews today refer to God as Father, king, savior, judge, etc.
Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 …”they shall call his name IMMANUEL, which translated means, “GOD with us.”
It was God who suffered at the hands of man when Jesus was on the earth. Jesus was not a separate being apart from God, because if so, then that would void God’s plan of redemption for his fallen creation. If God used a “scape goat” instead, there would never have been a “Lamb of God”.
Because the Jews did not know who Jesus was does not take away from God’s redemptive plan. The relationship the Jews had with God at that time was pretty much non-existant. That’s why God sent prophets, like Isaiah, to the Jews in the fist place! God, who is referred to as “the Hound of Heaven” has ceaselessly sought out ways to get our attention! His desire for restoring his fallen and lost creation unto himself continues today! His love for us is beyond measure and there is no stopping it!
PTL
Hi John, Hope you are well.
Sorry, about your mum. May the Lord be with her throughout.
Please note that because a document is endorsed by a particular
group of people, it does not mean the group themselves are
endorsed. I was not aware that the document was endorsed by
Jehovah’s Witnesses. However if it is credible, then I see no
reason why it should not be endorsed by anyone.
There are of course, many other credible works and versions
of the bible which clearly show that John 1:1 can be translated
the “Word was divine, god-like, etc.
It is unfortunate that you, and Ian especially, chose to discredit the truth I have already established, by means other
than scripture. This of course suggests that, because you were
unable to address my conclusions from scripture.you had to find
another way, and that was to associate me with a group who I
have no affiliation with. In fact they refuse to talk with me,
and my address has been blacklisted by them.
It is hoped that the discerning reader will see through these
underhanded methods employed by you and Ian, and hold fast to
the troth already established.
I once again challenge you to disprove from scripture what I
have previously said. What you are doing now is throwing in as
much as you can in hope that these sound conclusions will be
forgotten. So when you have finished this, I will re-introduce
the few simple truths necessary to understand the divine natures
of God and his Son. Try as you may, you just can’t refute
these self-evident truths. So the only option you have is to
circumvent them, which is what you are doing now.
I noticed Ian’s comment above Re:IMMANUEL.
God of course, was with us when Jesus came to earth. He is the
image of the living God…then when he had accomplished his
mission here, he returned to his Father and was rewarded with a
higher position in heaven for his sacrifice. So Ian, you are
saying that God is now sitting next to Himself in heaven in a
lesser capacity. No doubt you will say that “the Trinity is
a mystery”, and you are right in as much as the teachings you
perpetrate are mystifyimg the simplicity of God’s word.
God bless.
Hi Ian, As you know, Jesus was born to Joseph and Mary. They didn’t call Him Immanuel. They were told they would have a child called Immanuel, meaning “God is with us” or “God with us” fulfilling the phophecy…In those times names were descriptive…that is why Jesus had many names describing His mission or work at a given time. “God is with us” means through Jesus’ birth, Father God’s SPIRIT comes to earth in Jesus to show us His love for us, etc, on our human level…It IS the miracle of Christmas! There is a site you can view that gives a much more detailed account of what I say, (can’t send the link, sorry!) it is: mountainretreat.org.net/faq/why…Re: It was God on the cross, Matt 27:46, Jesus cries, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” trans: “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken thee?” If Jesus was the one God, as you say, He is talking to Himself??…The circumstances for Jesus’s pea can also be easily researched…Also, Jesus called His Father, “Abba”, An Aramaic word meaning… (con’t next comment)
I suggest you acquaint yourself with Psalms 22
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King James Bible
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion’s mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
Psalm 22
Hi Ian, (con’t from last post!)…”Daddy”, (english translation, close as we can get). But the essence is that “Abba” is a more intimate, adoring name for His loving Father. Aramaic was the language spoken in Palestine at that time… Who was Jesus adoringly calling “Abba Father”, if Jesus is God, the Father? Re: The Word. In the NKJV, pge. 1245, there is a list of the descriptive names given to Jesus, with the descriptive and verse. I posted a partial list yesterday. The final, last, given name to Jesus, is: “THE WORD, present WITH God at the creation, John 1:1″…. Jesus IS called “The Word”!! . On comment pges, 57 (@ bottom) and 58, Marianne explains this… These are not my opinions! I realize these are very brief comments on each issue, just too much to go into & can easily be researched! But food for thought anyway….Thanks and May God Bless! Elle
Abigail, I suggest you read Henry’s Concise Commentary or other reliable source, on Psalms 22…
Jesus is God and He fulfilled all prophesy concerning Himself.
On the cross hanging between Heaven and earth Our Jewish King started to recite
Psalms 22
abigail
Please explain why you quoted Psalm 22 here. Jesus is calling on God the Father, as David did, in the Psalm. How does this prove the Immanuel name issue? The psalm does forshadow the suffering of Jesus, but does not establish him as Immanuel or God. It seems that whatever your point is, the psalm is not related to it. Or maybe it is…. State the point you wish to make and then give a scripture to back it up.
I was stating the psalm 22 to prove that this is what Jesus had started to recite on the cross proving that His sufferings had been prophesied.
And now , I know He is God and I will state more scriptures that affirms that Jesus is God.
1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Hbr 1:8
But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jhn 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Tts 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Rom 9:5
Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Isa 40:9
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift [it] up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
Isa 40:10
Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong [hand], and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward [is] with him, and his work before him.
Isa 40:11
He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Hbr 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
And I can add to this with no problem if some still doubt the divinity of Christ Jesus!
Abigail, Please do your research before you challange me. I have nothing further to say on the matter….Shalom…..Elle
Shana Tov …
In the beginning …
Elle it is not I that challenges you … but it is the Holy Scriptures.
As for research … I have only done this all my life.
And I am old … so do not be angry … we are all His creation and so …
happy new year.
It is time … friends…
Abigail, That is absolute nonsense… YOU do not know anything about ME…Or how long I’ve been a devoted christian, since before I could open my eyes…& there’s more, but it doesn’t matter. Your comment about ME being challenged by HOLY Scriptures is absurd… What you say about others is what you say about yourself…Go back in the comments and see for yourself….I am not angry. I am just not willing to engage in this type of exchange, or like the ones before this……Happy NeW Year….
The second part of Jesus is God
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Eph 3:9
And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Col 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Hbr 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Hbr 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever
Rev 1:2
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 1:11
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth
1Jo 1:1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
Rev 19:13
And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
1Jo 1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Jhn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Pro 8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Jhn 10:30
I and [my] Father are one.
Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Hi abigail
I think all here are in agreement that Jesus is divine. Your position, I feel, according to what you told me before, is that Jesus is the Father, and that there is no trinity. So I would present scriptures to that effect.
So these scritpures would have to be re-evaluated:
Jhn 17:5 – Jesus is speaking to God here, not himself
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
There are many scritpures that indicate that the Father is a separate person from Jesus. So those scriptures should be the focus of your attention.
———
We all agree that Jesus is divine, but the questions really are here,
who are the Father and the Holy Spirit, in relation to Jesus?
and who is “boss” or the God of Jesus?
if there are 3 persons in heaven – Father, son and holy spirit, are they equal in power?
if not equal, who has the highest authority?
1Jo 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
We must agree Jesus did not come to earth from Heaven with all Glory … rather He came covered in flesh … perishable flesh through a woman.
YHWH on the Mount did not descend with all Glory but covered Himself in darkness
and cloud and lightning.
At Pentecost The Mighty Spirit did not descend upon the heads of the apostles in all glory but rather covered as tongues of Fire.
The Spirit of GOD declares to man The Truth of The Word or gives witness to The Word.
The Word gives witness to Life Eternal. YHWH Gives witness to The Word, when He says ‘This is my Son Hear Him.’
The Three ARE ONE IN HEAVEN.
They are not separate persons they are the same person … God.
There is no ‘boss’.
And this One does not have multi personalities, I’m adding just in case some would want to go there.
God is HOLY
‘For Thine is The Kingdom, The Power and The Glory.’
This is who we hope to be part of when we go Home.
And I know that I am known by Him.
If great it is to know Him also as Great to known by Him.
And to be counted worthy.
The Lord is Almighty and this Time He is coming in All of His Glory!!
Abagail,
Hi hope you are well.
I have read your scriptures and they are excellent. I’m afraid certain people just don’t want to accept what the Bible says. Do not think you have wasted your time. I was edified by your scriptures.
One waters, another plants and God gives the increase.
You have done your job and I thank you and commend you for that.
Love,
John
You have just caused me tears.
My heart is so broken.
Those who refuse Him will wail when they see Him.
I thank God for you John.
I thank God that you see.
Hi Elle,
Hope you are well and receiving many blessings from the LORD.
These are difficult times for all of us, each being tested in
different ways, so it is important that we encourage and build
one another up, to counter the effects of this wicked world,and
it’s god Satan, who is unrelenting in his resolve to destroy our
faith and spiritual integrity…But God promised He won’t allow
us to take more than we can bear..1 Cor 10:13..,one of my favourite scriptures..and proof that God won’t desert us, if we
put our total trust in Him, blindly as a child, if necessary.
I’m so pleased you have received the truth about our Lord and
Saviour, Jesus. There aren’t many of us, just as Jesus said, when
he made it clear that “the path to life is narrow and only a few
will find it”.
When Jesus commanded us to pray to the Father through him, he meant exactly that. This is the only way God can hear prayers.
For people who pray to Jesus because they think he is God,will
not have their prayers answered. Jesus is not the answerer of
prayers, only the Father is. It is so sad that people think they
have the right to change the “rules”. If you truly love God, you
will not add to, or take away from His Word.
That is why this debate has been so important. If you do not know
the true nature of God and His son, then you cannot possibly
understand the magnitude of Jesus’ sacrifice and suffering for
us, because as a person in his own right, he could have lost
his life for all time, had he failed the test.(A debate for anther
time). That is why his reward in heaven was so magnanimous.
Many people fail to see that it was not about Jesus sacrificing
his physical body. It had to be something of greater magnitude
than that !!!! Let’s remember, Jesus was born sinless, so his
victory was not just over the flesh, it was a victory over Satan and the spirit realm, who are the cause of mankind needing total redemption. Do we fully understand what Jesus did for us ?!!!!
If we think Jesus is God, then I don’t see how we can,as there
would have been no chance of him failing !! Victory is only
possible where failure is also possible. He truly is our King
and Saviour for all time. His Father will forever be proudly looking on, as he sees His only begotten son, maintain the highest possible position in heaven, along side Him for all eternity.
Elle, you may be interested to know that many of the scriptures
used to support the idea of Jesus and God being one and the same,
have actually been corrupted in some way. Apart from John 1:1, previously mentioned, the key scriptures used to support this view are the ALPHA & OMEGA references in Revelation. If you do some
research, you will learn that the original Greek manuscripts do
not contain these words, so why does the KJV and some other
versions contain them ?!!!!
The more I research, the more evident it becomes that there has
been an agenda from the 1st century to “trinitize” the Father,
Son and Holy Spirit in to a co-equal Godhead, hence the total
confusion now !!!
If you should have any doubts as to the conclusions we have come
to, I would recommend this research and make your findings known
to as many as you can, because Jesus is the way the truth and the
life, and salvation is only possible through the true Jesus,
and the true Father who sent him.
You can wake up now !!
God bless you, and may He be with you at all times,right through
to our day of deliverance.
If you TRULY love GOD you will DO His Commandments!
You say ‘Jesus is not the answerer of
prayers, only the Father is.’
You can’t even be heard by Heaven unless you go through Christ Jesus.
If you deny The Christ you are none of His…
Wonder who you are TRULY addressing YOUR prayers to???
Never mind answering because I know the answer!
‘This gate will be kept shut. No one will open it or go through it, since the Lord the God of Israel has been through it. And so it must be kept shut. The prince himself, however, may sit there to take his meal in the presence of the Lord. He is to enter and leave through the porch of the gate.” (Ezek. 40:1; 44:1-3).
When ‘the Lord the God of Israel’ went through the eastern gate of the Temple Mount???
Right. When Jesus Christ entered the eastern gate of the Temple – and it will remain SHUT til the endtimes – just the way it is SHUT nowdays, just as the prophet prophesized.
Hi Richard, I hope you are well too. I have received a blessing today in your gracious comment, thank you and Bless you! You see, for me, there has never been any question of my faith. As I said in an earlier comment I’ve been a devoted christian before I could open my eyes! My Dutch ancestors were some of the earliest land grant owners/settlers in the Hudson Valley, New York, Manhatten & Oyster Bay, on Long Island, N.Y. They set up the first Dutch Reformed Churches in American history, early 1600’s on Long Island.. Some of my ancestors lived in Oyster Bay, one of the oldest towns in the U.S. It is made up of several villages, I was born there & lived in Cove Neck, a famous village in Oyster Bay. next door to Sagamoore Hill. I inherited my love of God thru my father, not any other siblings have to this day. So I think of this a true gift from God… As a child I just had this “intrinsic” love of God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit…the childlike faith I will never let go of…it’s just who I am! I will write more.
Abigail: I agree with John, your scripture references were also a blessing to me. Thank you.
Richard: I have some difficulty with your claims regarding the Greek manuscripts. You seem to be on a trail that suggests that the KJV (and I suspect other authorized versions) is unreliable and therefore a Christian must learn Greek to get to the truth.
Hogwash! The authorized versions including the KJV, NASB, NIV have all passed the credibility tests. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) uses the 23rd edition of Eberhard Nestle’s NOVUM TESTAMENTUM GRAECE (The Lockman Foundation) The oldest scrolls found to date are still confirming the “eye witness” accounts of the gospel writers as revealed by recent archaeological digs.
THESE SCRIPTURES HAVE NOT BEEN CORRUPTED! (II Peter 1:20-21, Matt.24:35)
Hi Richard, (con’t) I don’t go to Dutbh Reformed Church, we left that for the ancestors! But I lived in a magnificent area of faith, regardless of denomimation& where true patriotism was away of life…Sure it had everything a society can have, if you know anything about Long Island! I’ve had my trials in becoming an adult christian as anyone can. But God has shown me some awesome (there’s no word in any language to express!) experiences over the last few years that cemented me in my love & faith in God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit & the knowledge of what I have been saying..My experiences are my testimonies to my dearest Father God, Jesus & the Holy Spirit…I’m still in awe & will be ’til I die…I was blessed with a gift & shall cherish it forever. Someday I may share this with you if you like! It’s wonderful you have the faith and love that you do, & I can tell, (like me) it just grows everyday. Thank you for your support, something we all need. I support you as well. My sincerest Blessings for you!
Elle: re:earlier comment “I’ve been a devoted christian before I could open my eyes!”
Did you inherit your salvation?
Ian, You must be kidding! It’s just an expression! 🙂
Richard you seem to think that what Christ Jesus suffered was a test. How completely perverse is that thought! Incredible!!
‘That is why his reward in heaven was so magnanimous,’ you say and then you add ‘Many people fail to see that it was not about Jesus sacrificing
his physical body.’
You are so far in the left field that I cannot with adequate words describe your state without being terribly insulting.
I will refrain but The Judge of this world will not.
First of all I will correct your misunderstanding by saying The Truth.
Jesus is from above and He willingly came to This earth as The Lamb of God sacrificing Heaven itself in His Life on earth on your behalf.
It was not a TEST!!! It was a SACRIFICE OF BLOOD!!!
And then hypocritically you dare to call yourself by His Blessed name!
You twist all scriptures and in your pride think yourself smart.
While you are ignorant of what is truly divine and Holy.
You have missed the mark totally and all you write is blasphemous against The Most High God.
Hi Richard, Hope you are well! Sorry I didn’t get back sooner. You are absolutely right. The early greek manuscripts, Alexandrine, Sinaitic & Codex Ephream Rescriptus, do NOT support the Alpha and the Omega in scriptures. These greek manuscripts are some of the oldest in the world. This speaks to what scholars lable as “corruptions”. Over the past few weeks I’ve discovered many studies & commentaries on what has been added, distorted & or omitted to scriptures, especially with regard to different faiths, over the centuries. What is in the bibles we love & read? As christians have become more aware of this they are demanding correctness & truth. There are explanations, not justifications, given for why these things occurr. This is easily researchable. The answers are there for everyone’s benefit. What is alarming is what is being added to some newer additions. This is not my opinion.. Thank you for the very valuable truth. May God Bless You and keep You in His Perfect Peace……Elle
Ok, Elle and Richard. What is your source for these early manuscripts that you are referring to? Please be very specific so this forum can also be informed. Please be careful to present it clearly so we can all check it out.
Elle, btw, using expressions like: “I’ve been a devoted christian before I could open my eyes!” can be very misleading to anyone reading your blog.
hi Ian,
A suggestion. Ask both Richard and Abigail: Who is Jesus, and what is his relationship to the Father God?
This is the foundation for all their remarks. Sometimes people give many good scriptures – since they are all good and holy anyhow – but we lose sight of why they are presented.
Both are believers in Jesus and his salvation, and are devoted to his heart. But each one will give you a different answer to that question.
Ian you do not need to ask me since I have already specifically told this forum who Jesus was and is and forever will be!
So just go back and read what I know is the Truth.
Richard and Elle are both deceived and deceivers.
And they both gloat over their so called misinformation.
And they both praise each other for denying the Holy Scriptures.
They have apparently found a better way.
Abigail,
You are out of line. Yes, you have declared that Jesus is God here, but you have not clarified that you also believe Jesus is the same person as the Father God.
Richard and Elle believe in Jesus and the Father as separate persons, yet part of the same God head, and the Father is sovereign.
There are more scriptures supporting their view than yours.
I ask you to restrain your condemnation, as it is a sign of a critical spirit, which is not of God.
I admit there are some theological issues that are debatable, and will be clear only when Jesus returns. It might be that God wanted to leave some things for us to think about, and to keep us seeking Him for truth. Mysteries keep the spirit alive with questions and curiosity.
This site is meant to help people explore their opinions, interpretations, and questions. People will not be able to find the answers they need if they are criticized personally for what they say.
Excuse me marianne Yes I have said it clearly on Sept. 11/09.
to refresh your memory I have copied and do paste my response to your question, since they haven’t changed and will never change because no man will pluck me out of His Hand.
I will answer each one of your question … still I know you will not hear and so therefore you.
1.Do you believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, or different persons?
A. The same
2. If Jesus is God to you, then is the Father God also?
A. Jesus is God there is no ‘if’.
Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last.
3 . From what i see, you say Jesus is God, but not son of God?
A. In the Above ‘Heaven’ Jesus is God.
In the below ‘ earth ‘ Jesus is God.
In under the worlds ‘ hell’ Jesus is God. There is no where that Jesus is not God.
In the Universe Jesus is God.
There is but ONE GOD. His throne is everlasting!
In the hurricane Jesus is God.
In the sea Jesus is God.
In the womb Jesus is God.
From eternity to eternity Jesus is God.
4. Who is Jesus, and
who is the Father?
A. God!
Jesus and the Father are NOT separate persons.
They are ONE.
ONE equals ONE!
If you don’t believe this then you have no right before God.
You can pray till you are blue in the face and you will NEVER get an answer from God.
If you have denied that Jesus ‘IS HE’ than the one you call ‘the father’
is ‘the devil your father.’
Now you may think my statements are out of line … but you are entitle to think that if you want.
I speak the Truth as I am required by my Faith in God.
People are entitled to believe a lie if they so wish to…
I have no power to change their free will and mind… but…
any who does twists the Holy Scriptures are wolves in sheeps’ clothing because their aim is to scatter and to promote a lie.
hi abigail
I already knew your views, because I asked. The request was for Ian’s sake, since he had not read all 300 comments on this page. Richard and Elle did not know either.
What is out of line is name calling, and remarks attacking the character of a person you really do not know.
You have much passion and knowledge to contribute. Just do this in the spirit of kindness, and love.
Marianne, Abigail,
How do you interpret Ezekiel 44:1-3 ?
“1 Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut.
2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.”
Jesus entered Jerusalem through the East gate around 30 A.D. (long before it was blocked by the Ottomans) as he came down from the Mount of Olives and entered the temple according to Luke 19:28-48
hi Gavriel
It might indicate that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy on some level. Many times the Lord shows up somewhere figuratively also. He shows up for battle, he shows up at the Red Sea, he shows up on Mt Sinai……
The next verse says
If it is Jesus being referenced, then who is the prince who sits, and eats before the Lord.
Prince is King David!
gavriel
but David is dead now! ???????
Jesus came after David.
It speaks about the future, Jesus will return, ressurect King David and appoint him as permanent prince in New Temple.
Kind David is a prince to the King (Jesus Christ).
well that is a new twist to things. interesting.
New Twist?
Is there any other contrary opinion according to traditional interpretation?
David, being future ‘earthly King’ of the Jews, newly appointed and ressurected by God:
“But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.” (Jer. 30:9)
gavriel
I have heard the Messiah is called as David the King, so the Messiah would sit before God and serve Him.
Hi Elle,
Due to the tone of some of the above comments,the twisting of
words,and the fact that the original question has never been
answered, I now feel that it is time to “shake the dust off of
ones feet” and move on.
I commend you for your courage and tenacity in standing firm for
the truth,in the face of this, not to wholesome at times, opposition, and I do believe God will surely bless you for this.
As there are but a few who believe as we do, fellowship is hard
to come by,so if you are in agreement,it would be good to maintain
contact with you, albeit, by the written word. If you would like
to do this, then Marianne will forward my e-mail address, or I
can get yours..but please don’t feel obligated in any way.
If you decide not to, I would like to finally thank you for your kind words and support throughout….and may the LORD bless you
every day, in every way, and fill your heart with love and peace,
and give you the resolve to preach this Good News to whoever the
LORD should place before you.
God bless you.
Hi Richard, I agree. I was just waiting untii I saw you have received my comments from last night before I moved on too. I am delighted to keep in fellowship with you. I have just sent Marianne my request to forward my email address to you…Looking forward to pleasent commaderie! May God pour His Blessings down on you and keep you near & dear forever and forever more! Elle
everyone.
I am closing this post,
there is too much confusion, hostility, rambling long winded pointless comments,and insults to good people.
What is amazing is that this post was about JOY.
I appreciate the patience and good will of those who have contributed in a fair and balanced fashion.
This discussion will not be continued on other pages. Comments should be relevant to the topic on the page.