Face of Jesus from Turin Shroud


Is this it? 

Traditional view here.  New analysis below.

Resent research done on the Turin Shroud by Ray Dowling and his team:

3D analysis of image created by a radiation burst through the cloth



Final conclusion:


489 Responses to “Face of Jesus from Turin Shroud”

  1. […] here for […]

  2. There have been many comments on the internet about the Shroud in recent weeks. And I’m aware of the study recently done that proves its authenticity. One problem I have with the study is that I believe Jesus was wrapped in burial clothes except for his head, which was covered by a “napkin”, which he set aside when he resurrected. So was his burial done in an unusual way by covering the head, as well as the body, with the main burial cloth, and the napkin placed over that?

    There is one thing about this picture presented of Jesus which rings true to me. I had a vision of Jesus 22 years ago, with his face and upper body appearing in the clouds of a typical sunny/cloudy day mixture in Seattle, around 1 PM. Jesus’ eyes, in my vision, looked like these eyes. The rest of the face looked more or less like the picture, but the eyes were the focal point of my vision, since He asked me to look into them. I don’t expect anyone to believe this, and with my “agnostic education” I can only 50% believe it myself. It is torture to know you saw this, but not understand it fully. This is the torture of living in a secular humanist world as I have always done.

    I think Jesus must have been buried in an atypical way, that is, the shroud was placed around Him loosely, and covering His face as well as His body, until such time as the women would arrive on Sunday morning to wrap and perfume Him properly, in the custom of the time, with the face cloth then covering the face rather than the main part of the shroud. This is the only way the facial image could have gone onto the shroud.

    I believe the more recent research is probably correct. Earlier samples were done on the cloth added to repair tears in the cloth during the Middle Ages, which is what gave the “middle ages” date to the shround.

    I think Jesus gives us these hints of His reality and His resurrection in mercy, as He knows we struggle to live in a world where faith is challenged at every turn.

    Thanks for the presentation, Marianne.


  3. The Bible says Jesus was wrapped in a linen cloth… That linen cloth and chothes were mentioned several times ….These were found in the tomb… I am sure these were mentioned so we would know today that this shroud is authentic…As I see it these verses are the witness to it….
    Matt 27-59, Mark 15-46, Luke 23-53, John 19-40…and Luke 24-1, John-20-5,6,7…

  4. In the a dream that I am going to post later on, I was allowed to see the face of Jesus.
    I do not believe that we should be looking for the face of Jesus unless He reveals himself to us. Any and all so called pictures of Jesus, especially having to deal with Catholicism are idols or pictures of false Gods. For example, you should pay attention to the church of Antioch and those new named Christians who mixed in pagan gods such as Zeus and Jupiter. In Acts 13-15 you will see how those Christians mixed in pagan rituals such as having a priest of Zeus mixing along with so called followers of Christ.
    Ask for God to reveal Himself to you so that you dont have to go out looking for a picture.
    We must also be aware of what is going on in our present age.
    This is a call for believers in Christ Jesus to seperate themselves from the care of this world. I do not call myself a Christian anymore because Satan has tainted it enough. I call myself a Believer and a Follower of the Way and His sheep. Read Acts 11:26, Acts 24:5, Acts 9:2 and John 10:27-28.
    Anyone can follow Christs teaching but that does not make them a disciple, it makes them just a follower. How can we be lovers of this world, care for this world, and at the same time say that we want to be like Jesus and carry our cross.

    Easter Sunday Sermon
    The Lord’s Supper

    23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

    27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup.29For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.30For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.31But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.32But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world.
    his Easter Sunday, we must make the dividing line, on who we are going to follow. The world does not have a problem revealing itself and its sin but we must not be afraid of this world and its kingdom of darkness. We need to be also careful of who is leading us. For example, just because our political leaders are looking for ways for the United States to become Sodom and Gomorra (and it will happen) does not mean that we should not stand firm for our Father. An abomination of desolation can also include setting up idols in ourselves. Dont you understand that now we are the temple of God. When we desecrate our temples with idols by choice we are on a wiling path to damnation. So far 2/3 parts of our government has started the path toward desecrating God’s way toward marriage. But how much should we fight to keep God from causing damnation upon the U.S. Besides, God has already promised to bring devestation upon the planet before the coming of the Son of Man. So lets not waste our oil as foolish virgins worrying about this world and keep the oil for the coming of our King!

    Brian Davis

  5. Although there seems little doubt that the shroud may be as old as claimed, and have properties indicating it is genuine, what troubles me is that it shows a bearded man, but Isaiah 50:6 indicates that Christ’s beard was torn off as part of his persecution.
    It could hardly have grown back in only a few hours before he died.
    I have heard theories that this is why his followers failed to recognise him when he appeared to them later – because his beard was torn off.
    So is Isaiah 50 not a prophecy of that, and only a few hairs were torn off, or what?

    • dear nicetiming

      I am not really sure. We do not know how the beard was torn off from Isaiah…was it down to the skin itself, a portion of the beard in one spot, or it was longer and it was torn so that it was shorter.? Or maybe the beard was torn at the skin, but it was the skin that tore, not the beard.

      Skin is easy to tear, but hair is rather tough.

      If so, his beard would have been still attached at the skin, with the skin torn from the face, but still partially attached. If the skin was still partially attached to the face, then it would explain why the hair was still there.

  6. When I saw Jesus 22 years ago, in the clouds, I saw him in a transformed state, not like the battered dead man of the shroud. Thus his eyes were like these eyes, and the shape of the bones, but the beard was restored. I do not think we will see Jesus in the battered state when we reach His kingdom. He is no longer the Suffering Servant. He is Lord.

    What was most interesting about my vision was his calmness. He was not sad, but not giving a false half smile as some pictures portray him. He exuded strength and calmness. He had one message for me and that was to feel His love. He knew the rest of my journey would be bad, so this was like a statement to help me in times of need.

    I saw this vision the day I left the Catholic Church, but I do not like wholesale condemnations of the Catholic Church. There are some good things in it. They do teach the gospel, at least in some parishes. Others have succumbed to the syncretism of the day. Dan might say they always were syncretic. Perhaps some parishes or dioceses were. Others were faithful and taught the gospel.

    • mariel

      I have seen him too. he was vibrant, glorious and had the most wonderful smile. the most beautiful man I have ever seen.!

  7. Hello everyone, its igm (in other posts). I’m using my new wordpress account now. Thank you for this article.

    I do have a question. In my prayers and meditations, I am trying to visualize the picture of Christ and there are various variations out there. I haven’t seen Christ in my dreams except I saw a crucifixion but I wasn’t able to notice the face.

    In 1 Corinthians 11:14 it says “Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him” (KJV). This verse makes me think if Jesus has really a long hair, which is contrary on the teaching of Paul that having a long hair for a man is a shame.

    Thank you for your time.

    • I’ve had the same question for years as well, and still don’t know the answer, so you’re not the only one who would like this clarified.

      However I found the exact meaning of Paul’s statement, when you study it out, is that a man should not have long “tresses” which does at least allow for hair that is longer than short back and sides.

      • nicetimingcom, are you saying that the exact meaning of 1 Cor 11:14 is that a man should not have long braided or twisted hair? And not just referring to as having long hair? Thank you. Sorry if my English is not that good, it is not my first language.

      • pinoywarrior7, it’s not clear how long tresses are, but it means hair that hangs loosely. I think the image the shroud pictures shows hair that is long enough to be tresses, but I’ve spoken with others who disagree, who think tresses are longer and usually hang loosely in curls. Also others have told me that Jesus had a Nazarite vow like Samson, but the Bible nowhere says that. To me, this is still a mystery.

        • Thank you nicetimingcom. I haven’t read the whole Bible and I was discussing with my uncle awhile ago regarding Samson as the character in the Bible with the long hair and how Je’sus could have long hair. I honestly have to google tresses just to make sure I understand what it is as English is not my main language.

          I haven’t seen the face of Je’sus. I would love to. I must say, blessed are those who will see Him and make it to the kingdom of heaven. This afternoon, I came across with John 20:29 and feel comforted that I don’t have to see for now, I just have to believe. G-d forgive me and help me with my unbelief and doubts.

    • They all had long hair then, by our standards.

      I think they meant long hair, as in as long as women kept their hair, which was all the way down their backs.

  8. God’s seal is on his forehead. Sacred om seal. It’s that sign that is like number 3. Joh. 6:27 ….. but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his SEAL…..

  9. I can’t see any valid reason for Jesus have had left a self image. One of the most fatal sins of Israel and the church was and is to worship images .God banned it in the 10 commanments. There’s no way to believe that the image is real.. I think that a new book of the matter is coming.

  10. I saw the documentary with the “face” above on the History channel and liked it so much that I bought the video. I do not know if the shroud is the actual burial shroud of Christ, but I would not be surprised if it is. The face on the shrould above protrays a Jewish man. The traditional view pictures Christ as an Italian. The former makes sesne. The traditional view is irrational.

    Although my faith in Christ does not depend on the shroud one iota, I think that it might be the face of our Savior. God is supernatural. The Resurrection is a supernatural event. The shroud confounds modern-day skeptics. This is the only period in the human history that we have the technology to decipher the face on the shroud.

    Great post! Thank you!

  11. There is far more evidence to suggest the Shroud is Authentic rather than a fake!.
    That being the case, it would be more of a miracle if the Shroud was a Fraud!
    For me the only negative information I have heard, is that using high resolution imagery around the eyes, it has been reported what looks like images of Roman coins placed on them during the burial stage in the tomb.
    Surely under Jewish custom no foreign coin would have been placed on a Jewish body?….Maybe somebody can enlighten me regarding this?

    • Glenn

      I do not know about the coin. I would not know why a coin would be forbidden on a Jewish body also. There seems to be some discussion on this on the internet…..a pagan custom? or just an effort to keep the eyes shut? interesting that the coins were from 29 AD.

      • I would suspect that any thing Pagan would be unclean on a Jewish body?

  12. It’s nothing more than a hoax, unless what the Bible says is nothing trustworthy.

    The Gospel plainly says one for wrapping head and another one for the body. Of course many people love to hear fancy stories (esp. through the Dark Age – Middle age – under the Catholic power), but don’t care much about the Bible. In fact, reading the Bible was discouraged, and having access to the Bible was anathema – guilty to death under Catholic power.

    I have updated Gospel translations uploaded tiny.cc/bostonreaders . In each of four Gospels (PDF file), I have attached a file ‘Clarifying the Passion Week Chronology’ which is a recent rewriting of a draft of my six-year old quest into the issue. Your comments are very much appreciated. (This is something like Wednesday crucifixion scenario vs. Friday among others, if you have heard/read about, with problem of interpreting the phrase ‘three days and three nights’ which can not fit in the traditional Catholic (+ Protestant) Friday crucifixion scenario. I have there uploaded about an article on the Shroud of Turin as well – you may find useful.

    • thanks…people should click on your link.


    • It was 3 days and 3 nights inclusive reckoning.

      Thursday night/Friday morning being the 1st day and night.
      Friday night/Saturday morning being the 2nd day and night.
      Saturday night/Sunday morning being the 3rd day and night.

      Jesus was arrested approx. 3am Friday morning. Was nailed to the cross 6 hours later at 9am. Died at 3pm. Was put in the tomb an hour or two before sunset. He rested in the tomb all Sabbath. Jewish priests demanded a Roman watch be set over the tomb that began at even that Sabbath. At dawn, Sunday morning an angel came down and rolled away the stone and Jesus rose from the dead.

      The Bible calls 72 hours 4 days in Acts 10.

      • Have you read my writing – apparently yet. There was no such days as Sunday, Saturday, Friday, etc. in the early 1st century. Apart from the Scripture-based calendar, the Julian calendar had an eight-day week (A to H). Moreover in the Scripture a day begins at sunrise. The rabbinic Hebrew reckoning of a date from sunset or the Julian-Gregorian reckoning of a date from midnight has nothing to do with the Scripture. You have to follow the internal chronology and timeline before you can say whether a certain date was Sunday, Saturday, etc. Yeshua was crucified on Abib 14 afternoon and resurrection was the end of Abib 16 (that’s right, the day of the day is called ‘4th watch of night’ = dawn – before the morning breaks for next day.). That’s why all the phrases in the Scripture ‘on the third day’ and ‘after three days’ as well as ‘three days and three nights’ are referring to the same period of time – no contradiction at all. It was either Wednesday crucifixion + Sat. dawn resurrection or Thursday crucifixion + Sun. dawn resurrection. The so-called Wednesday crucifixion scenario tries to read the Scripture text to come up with Saturday evening resurrection!
        Please read what I had shown – it took for me six years to finally find solution to such confusion, contradiction, conflation, conjectures, and controversies.

        • A day in the Bible begins and ends at sunset not sunrise. The even and the morning was the first day.

          Jesus died on what we now call Friday. He rose on what we now call Sunday morning.

          Everybody had a 7 day week. You either deceived or deceiving.

          • You are putting yourself deceived by conventional ideas, like the earth going around the fixed sun. That’s why you have to keep looking, listening and reading – also thinking and reasoning.

            BTW, where does the Bible say a day begins at sunset? That comes from Hillel II when he had to come up with a calendar system for diaspora Jewish people when Jerusalem and the temple-based religion of Israelites came to end. Ref. EG Richards (1998), Mapping Time – The Calendar and its History, p. 223.

            Whether you believe what you think you believe what you know and be happy with it and don’t be bothered with any further, it’s your prerogative. I have no objection to your having your approach in your life. But, let me tell you with a limited time for me to go on, let me tell you one thing: life is in challenge, in change, and in creating. Be challenged and challenge, Be changed and change, and Be creating. Do not trust anyone, any scholar, any book, any religious people, any politicians, yea, anyone in power until you check it with the truth – the divine reality. Don’t trust what anyone (including me) says and writes – as well as the most powerful deceiver, ‘oneself’. ;-<)

            • Act 20:7 ¶ And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

              Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

              Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

              Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

              Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

              Act 20:12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

              Act 20:13 ¶ And we went before to ship, and sailed unto Assos, there intending to take in Paul: for so had he appointed, minding himself to go afoot.

              Lev 23:32 It [shall be] unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth [day] of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

              • So?

                What does this say anything about the issue? Does it say a day begins at sunrise, sunset, or midnight?

                That they celebrate something from evening to evening means a day begins with evening? What begins at sunset (with evening) is called ‘night’ and what begins at sunrise (with morning) is called ‘day’ – check in Genesis Ch. 1

                • Look the day begins and ends at sunset.

                  Mar 1:32 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.

                  Lev 23 says celebrate your Sabbaths even to even.

                  Genesis 1 says it was the even and the morning were the first day, second day, etc.

                • Acts 20 was an all night prayer meeting beginning on what we now call Saturday night.

                  • Hi, David. All these and other verses you are going to quote don’t tell when a day a begins. O.K.? Day is that which begins at sunrise because its meaning is ‘daylight period’ (Genesis 1:5). All the words ‘day’ in the Scripture is this. That which begins at sunset is called ‘night’. You should read up on the words such as day, night, morning, evening, dusk, dawn, twilight, etc. And please take your time and effort to study. And I told you, there was no such thing as Saturday, Sunday, Monday, etc. Ne named days of Gregorian week were not known at that time. Only after second century, the Romans adopted 7-day week (Saturday was the first day of their week) from their 8-day week (labelled A through H). You like most people confuse about the meaning of ‘day’ and the ‘usage’ of the word ‘day’. For example, my son works from 11 p.m. his day start 11 p.m. That does not, however, mean a day begins at 11 p.m. for him as well as for others. Day in this example is a metonym for ‘date’ – a day on a calendar. Jewish day (e.g. Nisan 14) is a date on their calendar, starts (or rather, is reckoned) to start at sunset. May 5 today (which happens to be my 40th anniversary for a fateful marriage) refers to a date on the Gregorian calender which reckons to start at midnight. However, It does not care about when a day begins (as any person in any society and culture knows to be ‘at sunrise). Please do not confuse them with ‘day’ in the Bible which is something begins at sunrise. BTW, first day of the week in the Scripture does not mean same as Sunday; 7th day does not mean Saturday. Sunday, Saturday, etc. are solar days. In contrast, all these ‘days’ in the Scripture are lunar, since ‘week’ in the Scripture is lunar. The calendar is called a luni-solar calendar (why don’t you google it – as ‘lunisolar’). BTW, the Passover feast is the only one in Judaic festivals which is kept in the night (i.e. after sunset – with Passover meal and Passover vigil), with Passover preparation in the afternoon to have lambs slaughtered. So, are you still going to insist that since you start something at evening every day you want to have others believe when you say a day begins at evening?

                    • They called night even.

                      The Sabbath bgins at even. Lev 23 says you celebrate your Sabbaths from even to even or sunset to sunset.

                      They rushed the burial of Jesus because the Sabbath was coming when the sun set.

                      God didn’t want the day starting at sunrise because he didn’t want his people worshipping the sun.

                      The people were so scared of the priests in Jesus’ timethat they didn’t come to Jesus or healing until the sunset on Sabbath.

                      I have given you plenty of proofs that the 24 hour periods start at sunset that I think you are just sticking your fingers in your ear saying la la la la I can’t hear you.

          • God didn’t want the day starting at sunrise because he didn’t want his people worshipping the sun – What a baloney 😉

            • Oombi, the concept of the day starting when it gets dark goes all the way to ancient times. This is how the days are accounted for in Genesis 1. All seven feasts or rehearsal times (moedim) of Yah start this way. The Babylonians worshiped their sun deity at sunrise. The reason they have sun rise mass/services for the celebration of Easter (named after the goddes of fertility Isktar) is because that was the birth of the sun god (it went by various names). We are told not to worship the Almighty in the manner the pagans worship their dieties… The custom of starting the day at sunrise was inherited from Rome/Babylon.

              • Shoshana,

                Going all the way to ancient times? Back to when?

                Why don’t you go back all the way to the Creation?

                Read Genesis 1:5 ‘light (= that which begins at sunrise) is called ‘day’.

                Where do you read in the whole Scripture that ‘day’ begins at other than sunrise? I can bet my own neck on it. Please be like Bereans (Act 17:11) to read the Scripture to listen to what it says. Be not content with just translations, or not what other people (pastors, priests, popes, professors), or religious tradition of Constantine Catholicism as they tells you believe.

          • David I was re-reading your earlier post. You are correct to ascertain the day begins at sunset or dusk just as Genesis (not Hillel) states but I will digress that Yeshua died on a Friday or 6th day of the week. That is the day Tammuz traditionally died and Rome infused its Roman church with it. Yeshua died on a Wednesday afternoon, (Thursday at the latest if one wants to use Temple watch times to account for a day). Yeshua made clear two things, He would stay in the tomb 3 days and three nights and He is the Lord of the Sabbath. He resurrected on His Sabbath day between 3 (time of His death)and 6 in the afternoon (time of His burial). Rome had to change it to a sun rise on sun day to accommodate the many pagans that supposedly ‘converted’ to their religion, including Emperor Constantine who continue to worship the sun god Mithra even after his ‘conversion’.
            The early believers continued following Torah but not Pharisee or Sadducee style, rather in the manner Yeshua showed them. They had nothing to do with Rome or its twisted perversions of the word.

            • Christ died on what we now call Friday and rose from the dead on what we now call Sunday. This is three days and three nights. The Bible is using inclusive reckoning.

              Friday is the first day and night.
              Saturday is the second day and night.
              And Sunday is the third day and night.

              Or to put it another way:
              Christ was arrested Thursday night/Friday morning.
              He died Friday afternoon and was buried in a hurry because the Sabbath was coming.
              He rested all Sabbath in the tomb.
              And he rose from the dead on the 3rd day.

              If he died Wednesday and rose Sunday this would be 5 days not 3 biblically speaking.

              Acts 10. Cornius was praying at 3pm and he had a vision, he sends men to fetch Peter. The next day at 12pm Peter has the vision of the unclean animals. He takes the men in and puts them up for the night. In the morning Peter goes with the men. Next day at 3pm Peter arrives at Cornius’ house and Cornius says it was 4 days…

              Day 1: Cornius sends men @ 3pm.
              Day 2: Peter has the vision.
              Day 3: Peter goes with men.
              Day 4: Peter arrives at Cornius’ house @ 3pm.

              This is only 72 hours but Cornius calls it 4 days.

              Therefore 3 days and 3 nights does not mean a strict 72 hour period for if it were people would be calling the day Christ rose the 4th day not the 3rd.

              • sounds like you are saying he rose on Monday.

                • Friday morning before dawn = 1 night
                  Friday = 1 day
                  Saturday morning before dawn = 2 nights
                  Saturday = 2 days
                  Sunday morning before dawn = 3 nights
                  Sunday = 3 days

                  He died 14 Nissan = Passover
                  He rested 15 Nissan = Unleavened Bread
                  He rose 16 Nissan = First Fruits
                  The Holy Spirit was poured out 50 days later on Pentecost

                  Christ created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th.
                  Christ redeemed man on the 6th day and rested on the 7th.

            • Hi, all. Can you tell people where in the Scripture says a day begins at sunset? ‘Day’ itself means a daylight period.

              You can have a day on your way anyway you want to start on any time in the 24-period. In Roman calendar it is reckoned to start at midnight and in Jewish calendar it is reckoned to start at sunset. It does not mean a day begins at any other time than sunrise. These are ‘days’ meaning ‘calendar dates’.
              The words in the Scripture does not have same meaning with a translated modern English (for God’s sake). In the Scripture ‘day’ ‘week’ ‘month’ are lunar; while in Roman calender they are solar. ‘hour’ in the scripture is a period of time on sun-dial (50 to 70 min depending on the season), not a 60-min period as in modern definition. There were no Sunday, Saturday, Friday, etc. in the first century. (In Julian calendar they were A through H of an 8-day week). Please don’t bring your modern English words and mind-set into the Scripture. Read the Scripture as it reads and as it tells. Don’t trust popes, priests, pastors, professors, pulpit-to-pew to tell you the whole truth.
              One example David cited from Lev – it was about how they should keep that special day (sabbath) from evening before to evening of the day, as sabbath itself is only during day time – Nighttime is already given for people to ‘rest’, sabbath is not needed to have rest during the time from sunset to sunrise. When I have my own day (getting up around 1 p.m. and going be at 3 a.m.) does not make a day to begin at 1 p.m., even though my own day (day for activity) is reckoned to start at 1 p.m.

              Here is what Genesis tells:

              “1:4b And Elohim divides between the [period of] the light and [of] the darkness.
              1:5 Elohim calls the [period of] light and the [period of] darkness He calls

              So then there comes evening, [thus ending the ‘day’]
              and there comes morning, [thus ending the ‘night’]
              — day one, [thus being finished].”

              Does it say a day begins at sunset? Does it make you think a day should begin at sunset, when the word ‘day’ (Heb. yom) means daylight period? Don’t get confused of a calendar convention to have a date start at arbitrary time.

              Why don’t you care for downloading one of the Gospels translated from http://tiny.cc/bostonreaders or http://www.scribd.com/ounbbl? It should not be difficult to open the pdf file to read one of its attachments – ‘Clarifying the Passion Week Chronology’. Whether you pick up something to make you think, or reject and not to bother to search for a truth, it’s your free choice.

              • Day in the Bible can mean several things:

                1. A 24 hour period
                2. The day light portion of the day
                3. An indefinite time.

                In Genesis 1 we are told the days were even and morning.

                In Leviticus 23 we are told to celebrate the Sabbath even to even.

                The weekly Sabbath is not based on the month or the sun. It is based upon creation. The cycle of working 6 days and resting the 7th which has not been interrupted since creation.

                Sabbath begins at sundown.
                Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
                Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
                Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
                Luk 24:1 ¶ Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.

                Mat 27:62 ¶ Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
                Mat 27:63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
                Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
                Mat 27:65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make [it] as sure as ye can.
                Mat 27:66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch at the end of the Sabbath.
                Mat 28:1 As it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

                Mar 16:1 ¶ And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
                Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

                Jhn 19:31 ¶ The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
                Jhn 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
                Jhn 20:1 ¶ The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

                Act 20:7 ¶ And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
                Act 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.
                Act 20:9 And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.
                Act 20:10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing [him] said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.
                Act 20:11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

              • oun

                2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

                *** notice the darkness existed first

                3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning–the first day.

                *** notice the light had to be created, then separated from the darkness

                the way god describes the first time period was …….first evening, and then morning.

                and Jews have been counting time like this ever since

                • Good point. I hadn’t seen that.

                • You may read some commentaries on Gen 1-11. In fact , any of them will say this:

                  Light was already created in v. 1. All the verses from 3 to the end describes how God formed and filled from the perspective of the earth. It does not matter whether v. 1 is translated as KJV, etc ( “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” ) or as NRSV (“In the beginning when God created. It does not matter how the phrase ‘tohuwabohu’ is translated, as ‘was without form and void’, or as ‘CAME to be formless and empty’. All the creation necessary is done in v. 1.

                  The word ‘light’ in 4 and 5 does not mean ‘light’ in physics – particle and wave; a portion of electromagnetic spectrum. It means the period of light (with sun above the horizon) in contrast to dark period with sun below the horizon.

                  “Darkness existed first” – of course we know because God call light come to be. How does it to prove your point which simply contradicts v. 5 when God call the light period which begins with morning at sunrise as ‘day’?

  13. According to the gospel of John chapter 20 Jesus’ body was wrapped in linen clothes and a napkin was over the head.

    Jhn 20:5 And he stooping down, [and looking in], saw the linen clothes lying; yet went he not in.
    Jhn 20:6 Then cometh Simon Peter following him, and went into the sepulchre, and seeth the linen clothes lie,
    Jhn 20:7 And the napkin, that was about his head, not lying with the linen clothes, but wrapped together in a place by itself.

    This alone proves to me that the Turin Shroud is a fake. It certainly can not be the burial shroud of Jesus Christ.

  14. First of all His name was not ‘Jesus’ or ieosus, the letter J did not even exist till about 400 years ago… He is a Jew and His name is Yahoshua, Yeshua for short, which literally means ‘salvation’. He was a Semitic Jew from 2000 years ago thus His features do not correspond to those found in Michelangelo’s, Da Vinci’s or any of the painters of the Renaissance which popularized the long haired, long face white man. Jews only grew their hair long IF they were doing a nazirite vow such as Samson’s or even the rabbi Saul did (“Paul”) in Acts. We know He wasn’t doing one because you were not supposed to drink wine during the vow…
    Jews were buried in their prayer cloth, otherwise known as talit and I don’t think this linen cloth had any tassels or tzit tzit attached to it. Lets keep this in a Jewish perspective because Yeshua is a Jew (from 2000 years ago, before they mixed), not a white European.
    Have you seen pictures of Zeus or of Serapis Crestus? That is what the image in this cloth looks more like…

    • That is a stupid argument. So what the letter J didn’t exist 400 years ago.
      If you want to be pendantic it is spelt Yeshua not Yahoshua or however you spell it. Yeshua is transliterated into Iesous which is transliterated into Iesus or Jesus.

      Yeshua is Joshua in English. God does not care what name we call him otherwise the writers of the NT wouldn’t have transliterated the name.

      • In Judaism names are very important as they all have meanings. As I mentioned His name is Yahoshua, meaning salvation from Yah, Yeshua for short. No, ieosus wont do because it does not have the same meaning. I don’t let people call me by my Anglo name for the same reason; meanings are not all the same. The translators of the bible have been greatly influenced by Rome, the legs and toes of the statue (Daniel’s) who very much still call the shots… Obviously names and their meanings are very important to the Maker too, albeit in the US we tend to brush them under the carpet…

    • @ Shashana,
      Most English speaking people believes ‘Jesus’, not ‘Yeshua’. Latin has ‘i’. Greek has it Iesus. KJB 1611 has it Iesus. Only French has ‘J’ sound which was the origin of modern English ‘J’ from mid 17th century. The letter J in German is pronounced as ‘y’. Spanish ‘J’ sounds not as J. Same for Italian. Especially in America, The Messiah has been thoroughly Americanized and it’s not uncommon to here Anglicized name as a curse word, Geezus – how sad. Nowadays, people are getting sensitive to words. They don’t want use ‘man’ for a human being. They are trying to get rid of any words with man, such as fisherman, salesman, etc. The only example they may keep is something they can sneer at, such as ‘evil man’, etc. But for the sacred names most don’t be bothered and don’t care. James in the English Bible is a corrupt name for Jacob/Yaakob. There was no person who was called ‘James’ in the first century. There was a joke – when they discovered the so-called James ossuary with an inscription of ‘Yaakob son of Yosef, brother of Yeshua’, the Israeli scholar did not know he was called James, the brother of Jesus, by English scholars. It took time to realize the significance of the finding to be brought on to the believers of Yeshua the Messiah (aka Jesus Christ).

  15. There is no doubt that the days according to the Maker start when it gets dark. Yeshua resurrected on the weekly Sabbath between 3 and 6, just as He said He would, 3 days and 3 nights after He was buried. The Maker would not have His people worship Yeshua at sun rise like the pagans worship Mithra. Unfortunately the Gentile church has inherited the lies from the Roman religion. It is high time to come out of her…

    • The day Yom starts at sunset not sunrise. Even today the Jews celebrate the 7th day Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday.

      • The sunrise start of the day is wholly pagan as it greets the rising of the sun deity, same goes for Ishtar sunrise services… Christianity has inherited the Babylonian lies brought by Rome…

      • It is your choice believe what Jewish people do. If you do not listen to what the Scripture plains says, it’s your choice. May Elohim bless you.

    • Shashana, don’t you read the Gospel which says the disciples rest on the Sabbath? What does make you think He was raised on Sabbath?

      • Oun Kwon,
        The Sabbath is from sundown to sundown, which means the Sabbath would have been over around 6 pm. Jesus died at 3pm. Three days and three nights would end at 3am Sunday.

      • p.s. He died at 3pm. They had to bury Him by Sundown, which would have been around 6pm. So He could have been in the tomb up until 6am.

  16. Good post. I had heard the blood has been tested, only half the chromosomes of what we all have.

    Note, I do not think it is that important to argue the start of the day. It does nothing to change what we are to believe – Yeshua, Hamachiach, Died, Rose, In Heaven at the Right Hand of our Father YHWH. Be blessed.

  17. Shalom, I don’t have time to really get into this but as I mentioned earlier the Friday death comes from pagan sources, is one of the many things the Roman church changed. Please check these web sites for more info:

    Good Friday
    Another element of the Easter season is “Good Friday.” This is believed by Christians to be the day that Christ died on the cross and was buried. Theologians do a lot of interpretive gymnastics to arrive at a Friday death of Messiah, followed by a Sunday morning resurrection. This flatly contradicts what the Messiah himself said about the length of time he would be in the grave. He specifically and repeatedly instructed his disciples that he would be in the tomb for three days and three nights.
    The major problem with insisting that Messiah died on Good Friday is that the math just doesn’t add up. Jesus said that he would be in the grave for three days and three nights:
    He answered, “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Yonah. For as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:39-40)
    There is clearly only one day and two nights between Friday at sunset when Messiah was placed in the tomb and Sunday morning, when the women found the tomb empty. This is obviously a huge problem for those who hold this view.
    But even giving the benefit of the doubt, it still may be feasible to count three days as: day one – the final few minutes of Friday before sundown; day two – Saturday; day three – the first few minutes of the daytime portion of Sunday. But there just simply aren’t three nights between Friday evening and Sunday morning. So, unless you ignore what the Master taught, you MUST conclude that he did not die on the tree on Friday. (See a detailed study of this prophesy and its fulfillment in our companion article, The Sign of Jonah: 3 Days and 3 Nights).
    So Friday was not, in fact, the day Messiah died. But it fits in really nicely with the activities which were traditionally practiced by the pagans on Friday. Thus, it’s convenient for Christians to force fit the death of Messiah into a “Friday” frame, because Friday and Sunday were significant days when the pagans practiced the worship of their god-idols. And these practices were amalgamated into the worship of the early Church




  18. Apart from the regular weekly Sabbath, there were also “Special Sabbaths” held on each of the Feasts!.I think some 6 in all during a year. Passover was no different!.The Gospel of John records that the next day was a Special Sabbath, so could there actually have been two Sabbaths after the Crucification, that is on a Friday and Saturday?
    Any thoughts on this?

    • without exact knowledge of the hebrew calendar for that year, I am not sure when the extra sabbaths were

      one source says the extra sabbath preceded the normal one

      Click to access JesusDiedHebrewCalendar.pdf

      date of death

      30 AD Passover Wednesday, April 5


      16th of Nisan, 3790


      last supper tuesday night…….died wednesday by 6 pm sundown

      wed day to thurs day = 1 day, with wed night considered start of thursday (passover, sabbath)

      thurs day to fri day = 1 day, with thurs night considered start of friday

      fri day to sat day = 1 day, with friday night considered start of saturday ( sabbath)

      Jesus would have risen sometime after saturday evening, which would have made it officially the start of sunday

      • Can’t be in 30AD.

        We are told in Luke that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar.

        Luk 3:1 ¶ Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,
        Luk 3:21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
        Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
        Luk 3:23 ¶ And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

        History tells us Tiberius Caesar became co-regent with Augustus in 12AD. 12AD plus 15 = 27AD. Jesus’ ministry in person lasted 3.5 years.

        He was baptised in the fall of 27AD.
        Fall of 28AD = 1 year
        Fall of 29AD = 2 years
        Fall of 30AD = 3 years
        Spring of 31AD = 6 months

        • ok….let us count the years:

          (it was IN the 15th year, not AFTER the 15th year)

          12, 13, 14 , 15 , 16 = 5 years

          17, 18, 19, 20, 21 = 5 years

          22, 23, 24, 25, 26 = 5 years

          so he was baptized in the fall of 26 AD

          3.5 years later = spring of 30 AD

          • Are you 1 year old when you are born or when you celebrate your first birthday?

            • the 12th year of my life is separate from the 13th year. they are 2 years, 12 and 13.

              but there is one year between 12 and 13

          • Fall of 12 to fall of 13 = 1
            Fall of 13 to fall of 14 = 2
            Fall of 14 to fall of 15 = 3
            Fall of 15 to fall of 16 = 4
            Fall of 16 to fall of 17 = 5
            Fall of 17 to fall of 18 = 6
            Fall of 18 to fall of 19 = 7
            Fall of 19 to fall of 20 = 8
            Fall of 20 to fall of 21 = 9
            Fall of 21 to fall of 22 = 10
            Fall of 22 to fall of 23 = 11
            Fall of 23 to fall of 24 = 12
            Fall of 24 to fall of 25 = 13
            Fall of 25 to fall of 26 = 14
            Fall of 26 to fall of 27 = 15

            Jesus was baptised in the 15th year of Tiberius in the fall of 27AD. He was baptised towards the end of the 15th year.

            • this is a math issue..

              by going from 12 to 13, you are not including the 12 as a year to itself

              • Are you stupid? Tiberius became co-regent in the fall of 12AD. the fall of 12 to the fall of 13 would be his first year.

            • David,
              The morning starts at sunrise and the evening starts at sunset, but the Bible begins the day (the 24 hour period) at sunset. There is a spiritual symbolic reason for this. As humans, just as we are conceived in the darkness of the womb, and are then born into the light, so we first in spiritual darkness and then brought into the Light through our spiritual birth.

            • David,
              It seems to me that if the 15th year BEGAN in the fall of 26 A.D. and Jesus was baptized in the 15th year, in the fall, that He would have been baptized in 26A.D.

    • There was:

      The 7th day weekly Sabbath(which pointed back to creation and also redemption)

      Ceremonial feasts were:

      Passover – 14 Nissan
      Unleavened Bread – 15 Nissan
      First Fruits – the first 1st day of the week after Unleavened Bread
      Pentecost – the 1st day of the week after the 7th complete weekly Sabbath(or 50 days after First Fruits)
      Trumpets – 1st of the 7th month
      Day of Atonement – 10th day of the 7th month
      Tabernacles – 15th day of the 7th month

  19. Let me start by saying the writers of the bible were Hebrews whose mode of thinking is not like the Greco-Romano one we have sadly inherited. Yom is the Hebrew word for day and yom starts long before the sun rises in the Hebrew mind set while in the Hellenistic one with its pagan idolatry roots of the sun god the day starts when their god rises so you will often hear expressions of the start of the day connected to this daily event.

  20. You seem to be confusing the weekly Sabbath with the seven yearly Sabbats or moedim of Yah. These are the seven sacred appointment times of the Creator, the first one being Passover.
    You also cite Acts 20 when rabbi Shaul was leading the service or gathering that sometimes follows the end of the weekly Sabbath. This service starts after sunset. Often a meal accompanies this gatthering as well. Apparently on this occassion Shaul talked for a long time. A word of caution, the writtings of the apostles, who for the most part spoke either Hebrew or Aramaic were written by scribes in a language other than the one the disciples used to communicate.

    • Shaul? You mean Paul?

      Yes, I know that was a Saturday night prayer meeting. I used it to help prove a new 24 hour day starts at sunset. It was on the night part of the first day of the week, ie Saturday night/Sunday morning.

  21. That is right Marianne, Jews have reckon it that way frm the get go. Same thing with the Sabbath being the seventh day that was blessed and set apart by the Almighty since creation.

  22. The approaching Shabbat was Passover which is the first of Yah’s seven yearly Shabbat or moedim that Yeshua and His disciples continued to observe as we will durimg the milenium.

  23. Shalom Glenn, there are seven yearly Sabbaths, Passover being the first one. Yeshua was hung on the tree and died when the lambs were slaughtered at the Temple. He literally became our Passover lamb mid week. The Sabbath of Passover stars like all feasts of Yah at dark and so Yeshua had to be buried before then…

    • When you say Passover do you mean The feast of Unleavened Bread, ie Nissan 15-21? Because to me Passover is the day the lamb is killed, ie Nissan 14 and eaten from sunset that even.

      There were 7 feasts, yes but not every feast was a sabbath. First Fruits wasn’t a sabbath. The 2nd through 6th day of unleavened bread were not Sabbaths.

      People were only required to visit Jerusalem 3 times a year: Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles.

  24. Thanks Shoshana for that information!…So then could Christs Crucification have been followed by two Sabbaths?…The yearly and the traditional Saturday Sabbath?…Which would mean He was murdered on a Thursday afternoon!?

  25. Two Sabbaths yes, Thursday probably not.

    Read this interesting article it considers many angles and is well researched.

    • Jesus was arrested at 3am Friday morning.

      It was the preparation day which we call Friday when he was nailed to the cross at 9am fulfilling the morning sacrifice and died at 3pm fulfilling the even sacrifice. The Jews begged Pilot to not leave people on crosses over the Sabbath so the Romans took down the two thieves from the crosses and broke their legs to stop them running away. Jesus was already dead so they didn’t break his legs but pierce his side and blood and water came out. Jesus was buried in a hurry because the Sabbath was coming. The women bought spices, etc and rested according to the commandment(Luke 23:52-56). That Sabbath was a high Sabbath(John 19:31). A high Sabbath is when a ceremonial Sabbath coincides with the weekly Sabbath. That Saturday was Nissan 15 first day of Unleavened Bread. Jesus is our Passover Lamb. He died right on time when the Passover lamb would be slain in the temple. The lamb was to be killed at 3pm on the 14th day of Nissan and eaten during the night of the 15th.

      Nissan 14 – 6th day – Preparation day
      Nissan 15 – 7th day – Unleavened Bread
      Nissan 16 – 1st day – First Fruits

      First Fruits is always on the 1st day of the week(Sunday). 50 days or 7 weeks later was Pentecost. Pentecost means 50 days. This period has to be 50 days. Read Leviticus 23. There has to be 7 complete Sabbaths.

      If Jesus died on a Wednesday as some believe First Fruits wouldn’t be for another 5 days. It would be as follows:

      Day 1: Nissan 14 – Passover
      Day 2: Nissan 15 – Unleavened Bread
      Day 3: Nissan 16
      Day 4: Nissan 17 – 7th day Sabbath
      Day 5: Nissan 18 – First Fruits
      Day 54: Pentecost

      If Jesus died on a Thursday then this would be the order of days:

      Day 1: Nissan 14 – Passover
      Day 2: Nissan 15 – Unleavened Bread
      Day 3: Nissan 16 – 7th day Sabbath
      Day 4: Nissan 17 – First Fruits
      Day 53: Pentecost

      But if Jesus died on a Friday:

      Day 1: Nissan 14 – Passover
      Day 2: Nissan 15 – Unleavened Bread on the 7th day Sabbath
      Day 3: Nissan 16 – First Fruits
      Day 52: Pentecost

      What day did Jesus resurrect on?

      Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
      Mat 17:23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.
      Mat 20:19 And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify [him]: and the third day he shall rise again.
      Mat 27:64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
      Mar 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.
      Mar 10:34 And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.
      Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
      Luk 18:33 And they shall scourge [him], and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
      Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
      Luk 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
      Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
      Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
      1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

      Nissan 14 – first day Jesus nailed to cross and dies
      Nissan 15 – second day Jesus resting in the tomb having redeemed man
      Nissan 16 – Third day the day Jesus rose from the dead.

      • It is impossible that Yeshua could have been impaled on a staurus on a Friday. He was crucified mid week before the Passover Sabbath. He died at 3 PM on the 14th day of the first month of the year (I don’t like using the names of Babylonia deities, the months in Scripture, the same as the days of the week are enumerated. Only Sabbath or Shabat is set aside even by name). That is when the lambs were slaughtered. The meal of Passover was eaten early on the 15th (when it just got dark). He was in the tomb as He said He would; 3 days and 3 nights, and resurrected between 3 PM (His death) and 6 PM (His burial). When the women got there at the start of the first day He had already resurrected.

        • Here is the problem with a strict 72 hour period in the tomb.

          Acts 10.

          Day 1: There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian [band], [A] devout [man], and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa, and call for [one] Simon, whose surname is Peter: He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do. And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually; And when he had declared all [these] things unto them, he sent them to Joppa.

          Day 2: On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour: And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance, And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. Now while Peter doubted in himself what this vision which he had seen should mean, behold, the men which were sent from Cornelius had made enquiry for Simon’s house, and stood before the gate, And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there. While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them. Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what [is] the cause wherefore ye are come? And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee. Then called he them in, and lodged [them].

          Day 3: And on the morrow Peter went away with them, and certain brethren from Joppa accompanied him.

          Day 4: And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends. And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped [him]. But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man. And as he talked with him, he went in, and found many that were come together. And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Therefore came I [unto you] without gainsaying, as soon as I was sent for: I ask therefore for what intent ye have sent for me? And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.

          They called 72 hours 4 days. So when Jesus rose they should have been saying it is the 4th day since these things happened but they didn’t they said it was the 3rd day.

          Friday 1st day
          Saturday 2nd day
          Sunday 3rd day

      • The NT says Yeshua was arrested in the night at the Gethsemane He came over there after the Last meal. Where does it say it was 3 a.m. How did you calculate?

        • John says in 19:14 that it was the sixth hour when Jesus was nailed to the cross. According to Mark’s account it was 9am or the 3rd hour.

          Therefore because the scripture can’t contradict itself the 6th hour in John 19:14 must be referring to the time since his arrest, i.e. 3am Friday morning. Remember he was in the garden 3 hours. His prayer lasted an hour and he prayed the same prayer 3 times.

          • David, you are not serious, are you?

            Have you read the Scripture text by yourself at all – not a verse but the paragraph and the larger section? Or just saying from what you remember from your confused memory? Or, as I suspect, is it from someone else talking? Have you read any (I mean, any) commentary on this verse Jn 19:14?

            That’s the time Pilate handed down the final sentencing!
            May God mercy on me!

            The main issue with the verse is what 6th hour refers to, because it seems contradictory to the Synoptic Gospels. Mark suggests He was on the cross from 9 a.m. Some translations say ‘noon’ (NRSV, NLT, ISV, AMP, Moffatt, TNIV, MSG) for Pilate’s sentencing – long after He was already on the cross.
            So some tries to force to read ‘six in the morning’ (HCSB, GW, AUV), claiming that it must be by Roman reckoning. Some thinks it was midnight. Well, I guess all these don’t matter much to you, am I not right?

            • Jesus was nailed to the cross at 9am. This was the 6th hour since his arrest in the garden.

              John can not be referring to Jewish reckoning because this would contradict Mark’s account. John can not be using Roman reckoning either as this would conflict with two other passage in his gospel like when the disciples went with Jesus at the 10th hour and stayed the whole night(makes sense if it were 4pm not 10am) and the woman at the well at the 6th hour which would be 12pm not 6am. The disciples went to buy bread, how many shops would be open at 6am do you think?

              And when they entered the garden after the last supper Jesus asked them to pray while he went and prayed. Here is the account in Mark 14.

              Mar 14:32 ¶ And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
              Mar 14:33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
              Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
              Mar 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
              Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
              Mar 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
              Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly [is] ready, but the flesh [is] weak.
              Mar 14:39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
              Mar 14:40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
              Mar 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take [your] rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
              Mar 14:42 Rise up, let us go; lo, he that betrayeth me is at hand.

              He said the same prayer three times and the prayer took an hour. Jesus was in the garden for 3 hours. Midnight to 3am Friday morning. From the arrest to being nailed to the cross took 6 hours being nailed to the cross at the 3rd hour 9am and died 6 hours later at 3pm fulfilling the morning and even sacrifices. He was buried nJoseph’s tomb in a hurry because the Sabbath according to the commandment was coming.

              I don’t joke when it comes to Scripture.

              • 3 a.m. arrest? I have never heard or read. What an inspiration, though difference is only about 3 hours compared to I have understood (i.e. midnight arrest).

                Day is from sunrise, with the daylight period being divided by 12. It is counted from 1st hour to 12th hour. 1st hour is a period of about an hour after sunrise. 12th hour is a period of about an hour before sunset.

                The claim that John used so-called Roman reckoning (midnight-midnight) is only a desperate attempt to make sense out of 19:14 sixth hour (by reading it as 6 a.m.) A scholarly hogwash, since, as you have correctly observed, John 4:6 tells that sixth hour-on-sundial can not be other than a period of about an hour around midday. Likewise, the 6th hour on 19:14 cannot be other than time period around midday.

                Can you tell me where does the Bible say about the disciples went with Jesus at “10th hour” and stayed whole night? 10th hour in the night on a watch/clock which had not been invented yet? How do you tell the hour during night with no Sun to use a sundial? How do you know His prayer lasted an hour x 3 times?

                • Jesus went through 7 trials. Some of which are listed below.

                  1. Annas
                  2. Caiaphas
                  3. Pilate
                  4. Herod
                  5. Pilate

                  Jhn 18:13 And led him away to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.
                  Jhn 18:14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

                  The priests handed over Jesus to Pilate as it was getting light.

                  6 hours from the arrest to the cross is plenty of time.

                  The priests tried Jesus at night which was actually illegal it was night because there was fires burning, Peter was keeping warm by one as he was watching events from a distance. I believe in Jerusalem it is dark until about 6am all year round(could be wrong there, never been but the difference between summer and winter isn’t more than an hour).

                  The 10th hour: it is in John 1:39.

              • Wonder of wonder! You allocated 6 hours for all the events from the Arrest to Crucifixion. All the events of Yeshua before Annas, before Caiaphas, before Sanhedrin, before Pilate, before Herod Antipas, and then again before Pilate, and then Via Dolores – all in 6 hours through wee hours? I cannot imagine all these could have happening even if they are running on foot full speed? Why all this in the night without sleep? How did they kicked people out of their bed to attend such a spectacle? What about the Scripture itself saying that Sanhedrin convened when ‘day’ came, which is nothing other than what begins at sunrise with morning (Mark 15:1)?

                No, you are not joking when it comes to Scripture. It seems it is simply used and applied, only to make it fit our ideas. Why don’t we take time and effort to read just the Scripture says and follow it through without any agenda. “Read the Bible as if for the first time.” Yeah, it is actually harder to do so. Harder, because we have to unlearn lots of things as well. No, we don’t need prayer as such before we read. We only have to be honest and humble, admitting our human limitation, to read not a verse but a larger section and to hear the whole coming out in harmony. What I have tried to write here cannot be all accurate and correct. It is rather that I want all of us (so-called Christians) to be challenged and challenge so that out of rubble of our tradition (yeah, religious traditions) only truth may come out and prevail.

                BTW, when we read the Gospel, since we are reading narratives,we better try to bring ourselves into the story itself, experiencing the sound, smell, sight, sense and its space just as the 1st century Middle eastern people did. The Gospel writers wrote what happened; they also wrote what’s going on. Then we ought to find why and how all this happened. Then, the Scripture will come to us a realistic and true life story of whom we confess to be our Lord, not as a bible of religion or church, a source of endless doctrines and claims.

      • David,

        Sunday – Triumphal Entry. Lamb examined for four days.
        Thursday – Passover. Also a Preparation Day, since Unleavened
        Bread is a Sabbath.
        Friday – Unleavened Bread. A High Sabbath. John calls it a “special” Sabbath.
        Saturday – Sabbath.
        Sunday- Firstfruits.
        Sunday 50 days later – Pentecost.

        • Jesus died on a Friday, the Preparation day. The women rested according to the COMMANDMENT. See Luke 23:54-24:1. They didn’t rest according to the feast.

  26. http://www.ccg.org.en

    Timming the cruxifition and resurection

  27. So David, My question is still not being answered!.Were there two sequential Sabbaths during the week of Christs death?

    • Yes there were, Passover midweek and the weekly Sabbath.

    • Jesus died on the Preparation day that we would call Friday. The following day was the first day of Unleavened Bread which that year was on the weekly Sabbath hence John called it a high Sabbath. And he rose early Sunday morning at dawn.

      • Jews also call preparation day the day before Pesach, Passover, because you literally have a lot of preparation to do…

        • Actually we now we start preparing for Passover a lot earlier than that, in my case a couple of weeks…

  28. There also seems to be no unity as regards the year of Christs death!…Anything from 29AD to 34 AD. Is there any records of Earthquakes during those years, which would explain the tearing of the Curtain in the Temple?…

    • not sure how accurate this is, but here is a reference


      33 AD

      makes it worse, doesn’t it?

      • The only two years it could be is 31 and 33AD and that is based on when do you date Tiberius’ reign from, 12 or 14AD?

        • http://www.roman-emperors.org/tiberius.htm

          • Yes, but he was co-regent from 12AD. He was effectually ruling from 12AD as Augustus was too ill at this time.

            • how does 12 AD affect this discussion?

              • Well if Luke is counting from 12AD when the baptism of Jesus was in the fall of 27AD(probably sometime in September) which would put the crucifixion in the spring of 31AD at the Passover(probably in late March early April).

                If he meant from 14AD then the crucifixion would be in the spring of 33AD.

                I think it was the former.

                • jesus was about 30 yo when baptised. he was born about 3 BC, so that would put his baptism at about 27 AD,

                  27 – 15 = 12 AD

                  • He has to be about 30 because a Levite could not enter the priesthood until he was 30. Yes I know Jesus was of Judah but Jesus is of a much higher priesthood that of Melchizedek.

                    Luke didn’t say he was 30, only that he was about 30. He could have been a month away from his 31st birthday for all we know.

                    The only clues we have is that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus so if John started his ministry at about the age of 30 that means that John must have been preaching and baptising for up to 6 months when Jesus came to be baptised.

                    27AD – 30 years = 4BC

                    You forgot to account for the no year zero. BC to AD goes 3BC, 2BC, 1BC, 1AD, 2AD, etc. When going from AD to BC you must take away 1. When going from BC to AD you must add 1. This is a common mistake to make and you are not the first.

  29. This is the link I meant to send before. The years would need to be during Pilate’s time over Judea (later renamed Palestine by the Romans), that was 26CE to 36CE. Of course one has to keep in mind the new moons and the aviv barley as back then Jews still followed the scriptural calendar rather than the fixed Hillel adopted during the third century.


    • Abib harvest you mean? The new year was the first new moon after the barley harvest turned green hence Abib. They needed something to wave on First Fruits day.

      The Jewish year is 354 days so every three years or so they have to add an extra month. Passover has to be kept in the spring.

  30. Thanks for that!:)…There must be a definitive answer to the day Jesus was Crucified and also what year?….Astronomical and earthquake data should be able to clear it up, so we don’t have a plus or minus date from 29 to 34 AD!

    • Well when was the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem take place? Work that out and you will have your answer. Don’t need astronomical and earthquake data.

  31. When you put all the Scriptural evidence together there is no room for a Wednesday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection.

    Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

    Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

    They rested according to the commandment. The 4th commandment of the 10 commandments.

    Luk 24:1 ¶ Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.

    The women came back to the tomb to finish the work of burial. If he had died on Wednesday why didn’t they go Friday? Why wait till Sunday? By this time the body of Jesus would have started to decompose. Their work would have been pointless.

    There is a lot more than this proving he died on the 6th day, rested the 7th and rose the 1st. This is 3 days and 3 nights in the Jewish mineset.

  32. Sorry David, but a Friday Crucification just doesn’t sit right with me!

    • But it is right. Just read the gospels as they stand. And compare Scripture with Scripture.

      Jesus died on the Preparation day. When is the Preparation day?

      Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
      Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

      The Preparation day is the day before the Sabbath. That is the Sabbath of the 4th commandment. Because the women rested according to the commandment, Luke 23:56.

      Jesus rose on First Fruits. When he went to heaven Sunday morning he took a select group of resurrected saints with him.

      Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
      Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection(Jesus’ resurrection that is), and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

      1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept.
      1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

      They were the fulfilment of the Firstfruits ceremony that took place on the first day of the week following Unleavened Bread.

      Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
      Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
      Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

      There is no way round this. Firstfruits was always on the 1st day of the week after the Sabbath. And Pentecost was always 7 weeks later on the 1st day of the week. ALWAYS, no exceptions.

      Lev 23:15 ¶ And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
      Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
      Lev 23:17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; [they are] the firstfruits unto the LORD.

      Jesus has to fulfil the ceremonial feasts literally or he isn’t our Messiah, saviour and intercessor.

      • David the preparation day of the Sabbath… of Passover, not the weekly שבת, not the weekly Shabbat but the first yearly one.

        • Problem with that view. The day before Unleavened Bread is never called the Preparation day.

          Mat 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
          Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
          Luk 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
          Jhn 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!
          Jhn 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
          Jhn 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews’ preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

          The Preparation day is the day before the 7th day Sabbath and that year the yearly Sabbath fell on the weekly Sabbath hence high Sabbath.

    • We Ortodox have fasting every friday because we beleive that Jesus was killed on a friday. And we have sundays as special day and sabbath since we beleive he resurected on a sunday.

      • Have you read A Hislop’s The Two Babylons? Yeshua did not died on a Friday, He died mid week and resurrected on the שהבת,Shabbat. He is the Lord of the Sabbath and our Sabbath rest. By the time the women got there at the start of the first day of the week (Saturday evening) He was gone.
        Food for thought, Jewish women do not do the burial annointment of men.

        • good point about the burial annointment

          • True, but maybe the times were a changin under the new covenant?
            These were liberated women and not subject to the rules of the Religious left!

            • glenn

              that is not the point…. 🙂

              it is an issue of women anointing the body of a naked man

              • Oh I see!……Interesting point for sure, and I don’t have an answer for!

                • Bible says the women bought spices and stuff to anoint the body and they went to the tomb very early on the first day of week when the sun was starting to rise.

                  I don’t care what the traditions were at the time.

        • Shoshana
          You say”By the time the women got there at the start of the first day of the week (Saturday evening) He was gone.”
          I say the first day of the week is sunday not saturday.

          • They went to the tomb on the first day of the week as the sun was starting to rise.

            Mat 28:1 As it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
            Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
            Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
            Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].
            Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
            Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

            Mar 16:1 ¶ And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
            Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first [day] of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
            Mar 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
            Mar 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
            Mar 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
            Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

            Luk 24:1 ¶ Now upon the first [day] of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain [others] with them.
            Luk 24:2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
            Luk 24:3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
            Luk 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
            Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down [their] faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
            Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

            Jhn 20:1 ¶ The first [day] of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.
            Jhn 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

            No woman in her right mind would walk for 40 minutes to the tomb in the dark so that rules out a Saturday sunset resurrection.

            Also the Roman guards started a watch at the end of the Sabbath at the request of the Jewish priests to stop Jesus’ followers stealing the body during the night and then claiming he had risen the next day.

            • someone brought up an important point earlier…..why were women anointing the body instead of men?

              that is against jewish custom.

              even today, men prepare male bodies, and women prepare female bodies

  33. believe

  34. Did you get a chance to read the link I sent?
    There is no way Yeshua could have died on a Friday. The Sabbath spoken of here is the day of Passover that we are told to observe and not work. Yeshua and His disciples were Torah observant Jews. The changes instituted by the Roman church involved much syncretization of various pagan practices. Friday is the day tammuz died Killed by a wild boar, not Yeshua. Due to Roman Jewish persecution, that included besieging Jerusalem, the Jewish followers of Yeshua were slowly replaced by Gentiles. These Gentiles wanting to avoid Roman persecution compromised Yeshua’s teachings. Later of course Rome decreed the institution of Ishtar (Easter) to replace Passover, along with the change of the Sabbath day from the seventh to the first. This is about the time Friday as the day ieosus (later “Jesus”) died was established.

  35. Of course Yeshua had to follow Torah the way it was meant to be; founded with love and grace at its center point or He could not have been Messiah. It was He who handed Torah to Moses and said so when Moses asked. Naturally He followed the Creator’s appointment times and He fulfilled the spring feasts on His first earthly ministry as Moshiach Ben Yosef, the suffering Messiah of Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22. There were other things He did as well that proved His being the Messiah. The one thing He would never do was change Father’s teachings or Torah. That means no compromising of the word with the traditions of men, be they Jewish or Gentile.

  36. What are these day one, two, three, you added to when Peter was told to go ahead and sit at the table with a Gentile that had gone through the cleansing process? On v 30 Peter states 3 days ago he had the vision during minha prayers but remember the trip itself seems to have taken a whole day each way so one cant really use this as measurement of elapsed time. Moreover, why would this account invalidate Yeshua’s own testimony? If He said He would be in the tomb three days and nights why is anyone questioning Him?

    • Corneius is told to send men to fetch Peter at the 9th hour or 3pm. We are told the next day at the 6th hour or 12pm Peter has the vision of the unclean animals. The men arrive and Peter puts them up for the night. Next day Peter goes with the men. Next day Peter arrives at Corneius at the 9th hour or 3pm. And Corneius says it was 4 days not 3.

      If you can’t understand simple English it is not my fault.

      • David,
        Preparation Day is ANY day that comes before a Sabbath. Unleavened Bread is a High Sabbath.

      • David,
        Let’s start at Monday.
        Men sent at 3pm Monday.
        Peter’s vision next day at 12pm Tuesday.
        Peter puts them up for the night until next day Wednesday.
        Next day Peter arrives with the man, Thursday.
        Next day Peter arrives at Cornelius’ at 3pm Friday.

        Monday 3pm until Tuesday 3pm- day one.
        Tuesday 3pm until Wednesday 3pm- day two.
        Wednesday 3pm until Thursday 3pm- day three.
        Thursday 3pm until Friday 3 pm- day four.

        I think simple English says it is four days?

        Also, NIV and Young’s Literal translation say three day. KJV says four days.

        Also, there is a difference between saying four full days and saying four days ago.

        Also, there is a difference between saying four days and saying four days and four nights.

  37. OK I went over the math here. Cornelious is doing minha prayers about three when he had the angel vision. He right away sends his messengers which arrive to were Peter is staying the next day after 12 but before three. The visitors spend the night and the next morning leave with Peter to take the trip back arriving the next day about three PM it is then Cornelios says three days ago around this time ( minha prayers) he received his message. Now by then it was three days and three nights later. Lets say he made this commemt Sat at three PM. Three days earlier according to this narrative it would habe been Wednesday at three…

    • Where you getting three days from? Corneius says four, FOUR days.

      Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, FOUR days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,

  38. David traditions were very important to the Jews.It was their way of doing things we need to keep in mind, not ours. Even to this day women do not prepare (wash) males for burial.

    • it makes one wonder what the women were really planning to do

    • If we read the narrative text plainly as the Scripture says without presumption, there is nothing contradictory or confusing. The fact is, the body was already washed and ‘anointed’ by Yosef. There was nothing to prevent women to put aromatic spice for their last seeing of Yeshua.

      • The Sabbath was coming. They didn’t have time to finish the burial of Christ properly.

  39. 10 There was a man in Caesarea named Cornelius, a Roman army officer in what was called the Italian Regiment. 2 He was a devout man, a “God-fearer,” as was his whole household; he gave generously to help the Jewish poor and prayed regularly to God. 3 One afternoon around three o’clock he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!” 4 Cornelius stared at the angel, terrified. “What is it, sir?” he asked. “Your prayers,” replied the angel, “and your acts of charity have gone up into God’s presence, so that he has you on his mind. 5 Now send some men to Yafo to bring back a man named Shim‘on, also called Kefa. 6 He’s staying with Shim‘on the leather-tanner, who has a house by the sea.” 7 As the angel that had spoken to him went away, Cornelius called two of his household slaves and one of his military aides, who was a godly man; 8 he explained everything to them and sent them to Yafo.

    9 The next day about noon, while they were still on their way and approaching the city, Kefa went up onto the roof of the house to pray. 10 He began to feel hungry and wanted something to eat; but while they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance 11 in which he saw heaven opened, and something that looked like a large sheet being lowered to the ground by its four corners. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals, crawling creatures and wild birds. 13 Then a voice came to him, “Get up, Kefa, slaughter and eat!” 14 But Kefa said, “No, sir! Absolutely not! I have never eaten food that was unclean or treif.” 15 The voice spoke to him a second time: “Stop treating as unclean what God has made clean.” 16 This happened three times, and then the sheet was immediately taken back up into heaven.

    17 Kefa was still puzzling over the meaning of the vision he had seen, when the men Cornelius had sent, having inquired for Shim‘on’s house, stood at the gate 18 and called out to ask if the Shim‘on known as Kefa was staying there. 19 While Kefa’s mind was still on the vision, the Spirit said, “Three men are looking for you. 20 Get up, go downstairs, and have no misgivings about going with them, because I myself have sent them.”

    21 So Kefa went down and said to the men, “You were looking for me? Here I am. What brings you here?” 22 They answered, “Cornelius. He’s a Roman army officer, an upright man and a God-fearer, a man highly regarded by the whole Jewish nation; and he was told by a holy angel to have you come to his house and listen to what you have to say.” 23 So Kefa invited them to be his guests.

    The next day, he got up and went with them, accompanied by some of the brothers from Yafo; 24 and he arrived at Caesarea the day after that. Cornelius was expecting them — he had already called together his relatives and close friends. 25 As Kefa entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell prostrate at his feet. 26 But Kefa pulled him to his feet and said, “Stand up! I myself am just a man.”

    27 As he talked with him, Kefa went inside and found many people gathered. 28 He said to them, “You are well aware that for a man who is a Jew to have close association with someone who belongs to another people, or to come and visit him, is something that just isn’t done. But God has shown me not to call any person common or unclean; 29 so when I was summoned, I came without raising any questions. Tell me, then, why did you send for me?”

    30 Cornelius answered, “Three days ago around this time, I was at minchah prayers in my house, when suddenly a man in shining clothes stood in front of me 31 and said, ‘God has heard your prayer and remembered your acts of charity. 32 Now send to Yafo and ask for Shim‘on, known as Kefa; he is staying in the house of Shim‘on, a leather-tanner, by the sea.’ 33 So I sent for you immediately, and you have been kind enough to come. Now all of us are here in the presence of God to hear everything the Lord has ordered you to say.”

    34 Then Kefa addressed them: “I now understand that God does not play favorites, 35 but that whoever fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him, no matter what people he belongs to.

    He said three days and when you lay these dates on a Jewish style calendar with each starting at dusk and taking into account a day traveling each way then the commentary about three days ago was made on the fourth day. This very much aligns with the Passover occurrence. Shalom

    • What translation are you using because all the Bibles I have say four days ago not three.

  40. Adam the first day of the calendar WE use is sun day but not the Hebrew calendar as the ‘day’ begins when it first gets dark. That is technically our Sat night but they could still refer to it as ‘early the first day of the week’.

  41. As to the Mark verses, one must keep in mind that the ending of Mark was added at a later time and is not found in earlier manuscripts. There is even the possibility the women may not have gone there to anoint him as that would not fit Jewish law…

    Try this web page for a good article on the subject:


    “The ending of Mark which seems to include an alleged Sunday resurrection is not authentic. Mark didn’t write it. That’s just one problem with it.”

    Also may want to read:

    Misquoting Jesus by Ehrman.

    Great reference book. Professor Ehrman has done quite a bit of research on verses added and changed to the bible. Curiously they seem to be only found in the so called “New Testament”, which I prefer to call ‘Writings of the Apostles’ as that is what they are supposed to be. In my bibles I normally tear off the added pages that read “Old Testament” and “New Testament” as they are definite add ons. The New Testament is mentioned in Heb 8:10-12 which quotes Jer 31:31-34 and has nothing to do with the second half of the bible.

    Also you may want to read from Sabbath To Sunday, Bacchiocchi

    Bacchiocchi gives good scholarly reasons as to the change made by man from Saturday to Sunday and covers the Resurrection day.

    We have inherited traditions that are not always based on good scriptural scholarship. Many of the scribes doing translations had agendas, some were not even that well educated and mistakes were made. Also many of those translations were translations of translations of translations of fragments of letters. They were not as careful to keep them because 2000 years ago what today is wrongly called “New Testament” were simple letters the apostles of Yeshua wrote to the Messianic Jewish congregations they started in various places.

    The tradition that the one Romans called ieosus (“Jesus”) resurrected on a sun day morning as did their sun deity, Mithra, is based on inherited falsehoods and is about time we take the dust off those books and start having a closer look. In this case the traditions are man-made and not inspired. The Gentiles it turns out have added and taken directly from scripture whereas the Jewish teachers of the law created their own man made interpretations and laws in separate books (like the Talmud) but never made the changes directly to the actual scriptures as that is forbidden. Some things just could not have happened even if some Gentile scribe changed them. Yeshua is the Lord of His Sabbath day and He said so Himself. That is the day He resurrected, not sunday. He did not identified Himself with sun day but with the Sabbath.

    • shoshana

      I am from UNC-CH like Bart Ehrman is. He has flaws in his research, because he approaches it in a secular and unbelieving manner.

      Misquoting jesus would best describe Ehrman, as well as others, who support the gnostic gospels as authentic, even though it has been proven they were written 200- 300 years later, long after Jesus and his apostles were gone. Dead people don’t write.

  42. Oh yes it is preparation day and preparation week too! Ask any Jew, why you can ask me, I usually start preparing 2-3 weeks in advance!

  43. 30 Cornelius answered, “Three days ago around this time, I was at minchah prayers in my house, when suddenly a man in shining clothes stood in front of me

  44. Thanks Marianne for pointing that out. I thought Ehrman was punching holes in all of the “NT” including the gospels. He does mention that they are translations of translations of translations of fragments and makes claims that verses like the ending of Mark were not in the earlier manuscripts, something I heard from other scholars as well. Yes, one must realize that the majority of the apostles could not write, possibly not read either. They would have needed to dictate to an scribe and trust the scribe wrote it correctly. Of course if the writings did not take place till after they died and the leadership of Yeshua’s Jewish assembly of believers changed hands from Jew to Gentile there is no telling of the fidelity of what was written. This is why I say one can really on the fidelity of the Tanach because rabbis wrote carefully down to the last yod. That they went ahead and wrote their interpretations of scripture on separate books is not the same thing as altering the actual scriptures something we know happened in the so called “New Testament”.
    There are many things that are stated in the “NT” that do not fit the Jewish life style of the time, some don’t even go along with historical data. For example the tradition of releasing a prisoner did not come about till much later thus Pilate, who is a historical figure with a reputation for extreme cruelty, would not have asked the crowd who should he release. Also the opinion of a subjected people, as Jews were at the time, did not matter to Rome, nor would they have allowed Jews to go inside were Pilate sat. Rome set a high priest up to help control the Jewish masses who were prone to rebellion from the austere Roman yoke and those high priests had to answer to Rome. That was one of the charges against Moshiach Ben Yosef, that He was not a Roman appointee and thus seen as a threat. This custom continued through the many kingdoms in Europe. Rome had the ultimate control. Even today there is much evidence that Rome, using the Jesuits that answer directly to the pope and others, still exerts a great deal of control on this earth. That correlates with Daniel’s statue whose legs of iron represent Rome and whose feet mingled with clay (nations) take the pagan religions that it carries around the nations of the world with the inflexibility and strength of iron.
    Regardless, the stone not cut by hand will soon come as Messiah Ben David and shatter the adversary’s stinking world dominance for once and for all. May Yah be praised!

  45. Well Shoshana, you speak like somebody who was actually there and witnessed the whole scenario!….You didn’t, but the writers of the Gospels DID!, and I know who I would much rather believe, as regards Traditions and culture of the time!.History teaches that there are always exceptions to the rule, and often peoples fear break with tradition!
    Pilate’s Wife told him not to have anything to do with this man Jesus, as she had a dream the previous night.This would have put a slightly different slant into his reasoning, and also his superstitions!
    The trial of Jesus went far beyond the trial of an ordinary man!
    It was God the Father saying, “Behold my Son, do with Him what you will!”
    When it comes to the truth, I would much prefer to stand on Scripture, than somebody who thinks they know what went on!

  46. Glenn that is just it. Some of the writings have been changed during the many translations. For openers the apostles were all Torah observant Jewish believers in Yeshua as the promised Messiah. These men were from the Judean area and spoke Hebrew or Aramean among themselves, not Greek or Latin. That being the case, were are those very early letters written in either Hebrew or Aramaic, the language they spoke? Why is it all in Greek? Rabbi Shaul spoke Greek so it makes sence he would write in Greek but not the others.

    • Greek was the language spoken by everyone. It was the English of their day.

  47. Well it’s all Greek to me,but as I often say to people, God knows what He is doing!
    The Bible has many writers, but only one Author!
    Knowing Hebrew and New Testament Greek certainly colours the writings, and adds light and shade, but does not deviate from the basic truth of what happened.
    The four Gospels clearly give a different view of the same events,but for me, that makes it more real!
    When various people witness a road accident, they may give different opinions of what they saw, but they all agree a car accident took place!
    Here endth the lesson!:)

  48. David, Greek was spoken in Judea like English in Mexico… the natives spoke Hebrew or Aramaic. This is a well proven historical fact. The upper class did speak Greek as did the dictators of Judea but not the common Jewish folk. Later after Rome sieged Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple in 70 CE, and changed the name of the area to Palestine then Greek became more popular as millions of Jews were killed and many were taken as slaves. Anything seen as Jewish, including the language was scorned.

  49. Glenn the Jewish women in general had more say than her Greek counterpart, even to assume positions of authority such as did Debra, Miriam and one apostle named Junia held in high esteem by rabbi Shaul (Paul). Nonetheless there is the element of modesty. Even today this is the practice when it comes to the dead.
    The only place in scripture where the words “New Testament” or ‘New Covenant’ are used is in relation to the pact that the Almighty made with His chosen ones, Israel and Judah. Hebrews mentions it in 8:10-12 citing Jeremiah 31:31-34,

    31 “The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
    with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.
    32 It will not be like the covenant
    I made with their ancestors
    when I took them by the hand
    to lead them out of Egypt,
    because they broke my covenant,
    though I was a husband to[a] them,[b]”
    declares the Lord.
    33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
    “I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
    I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.
    34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
    because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”
    declares the Lord.
    “For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”

  50. I think this thread has now gone off the track completely!…It was originally about the Shroud and dating the true year and day of the Crucifixion!
    Let’s try and get it back on track eh!?
    I still maintain that the exact year can be known, using geological data and astronomical data from the times!…The Romans , like the Chinese were always keen to record things!

  51. David you are so wrong!…There are both Jewish and Roman historians that give us clues, plus Acts Chapter 2 that give details regarding the day of the Crucifixion!
    I would much prefer to lean on this data that you expounding your own ideas about what you think happened!

    • Ok so when was Pentecost in 31AD? A computer program will not tell you when the Abib harvest turned green.

  52. The Crucifixion was not in 31AD, it was either 30AD or 33AD, only one of those two, and astronomically I favour 33AD!.
    Roman Historian Trallanus writes in 33AD, “A failure of the Sun took place greater than any previously known, and day became night at the 6th hour, so that stars actually appeared, and a great earthquake took place at Bithynia and overthrew the greater part of Niceaea”.
    The only Passover Lunar Eclipse that was visible from Jerusalem while Pilate was in office was April 3rd 33AD..The Moon turned Blood red!, as it was in Eclipse mode as it came up over the horizon, this was the day of .the cross!
    Peter mentions these events in Acts Chapter 2!

    • interesting facts…the abib harvest would only make a difference of a month, not 2 years

    • Jesus was baptised around September/October in 27AD in the 15th year of Tiberius.

      Fall 27 to fall 28 = 1 year
      Fall 28 to fall 29 = 2 years
      Fall 29 to fall 30 = 3 years
      Fall 30 to Spring 31 = 6 months

      Jesus’ ministry was 3 and a half years long. He was baptised when he was about 30 in the 15th year of Tiberius and his ministry lasted 3 and a half years.

      It can only be 31AD.

      The 70 weeks began in the fall of 457BC in the 7th year of the king of Persia at that time. Read Ezra 7 will you. Why can’t people read their Bibles?

      457BC plus 483 years equals 27AD and Jesus was cut off for our sins in the middle of the last week. 27 plus 3.5 = 31.

      • we do assume jesus preached for 3 1/2 years.

        but where does it say this in the new testament.????

        I understand daniel, but it may refer to something else.

        • Shouldn’t assume anything.

          Luk 13:6 ¶ He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

          Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
          Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:
          Luk 13:9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

          He was baptised in September/October 27AD. He came to Jerusalem every spring

          Passover 28AD no fruit on the fig tree
          Passover 29AD still no fruit
          Passover 30AD no fruit again and Jesus gave the parable quoted above.

          Passover 31AD Jesus curses the fig tree and it withers away.

          Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
          Mat 21:20 ¶ And when the disciples saw [it], they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!

          The fig tree represents Israel but this fig tree had no fruit. The fig tree is unique in that it is the only tree that produces fruit before leaves. This fig tree was covered in leaves no fruit. And any tree that doesn’t bear fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire.

          • but the bible does not say, and jesus does not either, how many years it was before the fig tree was cursed….

            and at the end, jesus forgave the jews, not cursed them.

      • David you are making too many assumptions regarding the Daniel Prophecy!….My point still stands regarding historical records of the time!…and not people trying to fudge numbers to suit their own beliefs!….Astronomically 31AD is a no no!

        • Again I repeat myself. A software program can not tell you when the Abib harvest turned green.

  53. The truth is out there Marianne, and I believe we can know the exact year and day of the death of Jesus!…Investigation into Pilates Governership from 26 to 36 AD yields interesting info as well!:)…Politically there was a lot going on!

  54. David if you read the four Gospels, we know Jesus attended 4 Passovers, therefore his ministry had to be at least 3.50 years!

  55. David I have fig trees and can assure you their frit does not come in till late summer early fall. There are not a spring fruit for Passover but more like a Yom Teruah fruit.

  56. Something else about fig tress, they have leaves before they have fruit. Right now mine are covered with leaves.

    • I do not have any fruit yet either…have 3 fig trees

    • “During April 13, 2005 I was on the west slope of the Mt. of Olives and photographed a fig tree with fig on a branch hanging over the road over a garden wall of someone’s yard. This was ten days before the Passover of the 23rd and 24rth of 2005. While it was not time for the fig harvest, it was time for the tree to be growing the figs. These were starchy and used as food by the poor. As Jesus approached Jerusalem close to the time of the Passover celebration, he arrived in a town called Bethany. He continued towards Jerusalem and arrived at Bethphage. Bethphage meant “house of the unripe figs”. It was in this area where Jesus cursed a barren fig tree. The unripe figs were not considered proper as food to be served in a Sabbath meal (Babylonian Talmud – Erubin), but were considered to be acceptable as an offering to the poor. While one would not normally eat unripe figs, a grower might curse a tree not fruiting in season. ”


  57. Actually I am not sure if it was three and a half as it is commonly believed or one and a half. Have you ever heard of Michael Rudd? He is an avid proponent of a one and a half year ministry and presents some good arguments about it. Like I said, not sure either way.

    • How about a “thus saith the Lord” instead of listening to what a mortal says, hmmm?

  58. There is no way it could have only been one and a half years!
    Michael Rudd is rudderless!
    The Gospels a clear that Jesus attended at least 3 Passovers, and more than likely 4!

    • glenn

      but the gospels all talk about the same time period…..so you cannot add them together

      • Yes you can.

        All 4 gospels tell the same story from 4 different points of view. We know Jesus went through 7 trials but you got to put the 4 gospels together to work it out.

  59. Daniels prophecy states that the Messiah will be cut off after 3.50 years.
    The Gospel of John in particular suggests four Passovers Jesus attended!

  60. That is just it David, What did He actually say? All gospels talk about the same events, all have had translation changes (believe me even with the best intentions they do occur, I know because I often do translations), and all were written many years after the facts. Its not like the scriptures Yeshua and His apostles used that were carefully copied.

  61. Who wrote that? You? The first photo is right labeled Sept. but the others… If true must be very unusual fig trees…

  62. Marianne one cannot give references as such, as it requires reading the four gospels to see just how many Passovers attended.The Gospel of John being the most informative!
    But the Ministry of Jesus was cut in half, as read in Daniel. It lasted 1,260 days from His Baptism to His Crucifixion, and then another 40 days of appearance after His resurrection!
    Oddly enough, The Beast and his cohorts will have a full term of 7 years!.
    Scripture records that Jesus was about 30 when he began His Ministry. He was born during the Feast of Tabernacles, which would have been late September or early October, and after His 40 days in the desert. So that would take his last month to April, which would have made His 4th Passover experience!

    • Where does the Bible tell He was born in late Autumn? An excellent guess with no basis but conjecture.

      The only clue of when Yeshua was born is in G-Luke.

      Read Luke 1:28 Gabriel announced to Mariam of her conception – ‘In the sixth month’ – it was the sixth month of the YEAR. With about 270 days of conception, Yeshua’s birth fell during the Festival of Shavuot (which marks the giving of Torah; not Christianized Pentecost which gibberish tongue speaking charismatics are fond of). Foolish smart aleck modernist translations, such as NET, TNIV, GW, GNB, MSG (which is full of baloney and crap by Eugene Peterson), NLT, etc. render as ‘in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy’ – they read back from Luke 1:36 and interpreted as they make up interesting story. What does how far Elizabeth in pregnancy has any meaning in Yeshua’s life-giving salvation history?

      As to figs, there are two crops – spring (breva) crop grown from the previous year’s stock (branches) and main summer crop grown from new stock. Yeshua was looking for the spring crop. G-Mk simply says it was not the season for main crop.

      • oun

        Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

        Notice it says, this is the sixth month WITH HER, not Israel, indicating she was 6 months pregnant, and does not refer to the hebrew calendar

        • Marianne, I try to tell we should read the Scripture as it narrates the story and should pay attention to Lk 1:28. Why do you read back Lk 1:36 to 1:28 and got mixed up? In your way of reading, Lk chapter one tells about how far Elizabeth was in her pregnancy at v. 24 and v. 36 and then you add v. 28 to make it THREE TIMES! It is supposed to be so meaningful in the narrative of the life history of our Lord Yeshua? It’s your choice.

      • John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus.

        Luk 1:23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.

        Luk 1:24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

        Luk 1:25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on [me], to take away my reproach among men.

        Luk 1:26 ¶ And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

        Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.

        Luk 1:28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, [thou that art] highly favoured, the Lord [is] with thee: blessed [art] thou among women.

        Luk 1:29 And when she saw [him], she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

        Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

        Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

        Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

        Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

        Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

        Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

        Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

        Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

        Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

        Luk 1:39 ¶ And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

        Luk 1:40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.

        Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

        Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.

        Luk 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

        Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

        Luk 1:45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

        Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

        Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

        Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

        Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.

        Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

        Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

        Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.

        Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

        Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;

        Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

        Luk 1:56 And Mary abode with her about three months, and returned to her own house.

        Luk 1:57 ¶ Now Elisabeth’s full time came that she should be delivered; and she brought forth a son.

        Luk 1:58 And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her.

        Jesus was not born in mid winter.

        Luk 2:8 ¶ And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

        Sheep wouldn’t have been out all night in December.

        • David
          The scriptures does not say mary was pregnant immediatly after Gabriel told her she will be pregnant. We in the east Ortodox Church celebrate christmas on 6 jan because our faith says he was born 5 jan. We know that this is the right date.

          • Yes it does.

            Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Mary came to visit.

            John was a Levite. A Levite couldn’t become a priest until he was 30.

            Num 4:2 Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers,
            Num 4:3 From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation.
            Num 4:4 ¶ This [shall be] the service of the sons of Kohath in the tabernacle of the congregation, [about] the most holy things:

            Num 4:22 Take also the sum of the sons of Gershon, throughout the houses of their fathers, by their families;
            Num 4:23 From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; all that enter in to perform the service, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation.
            Num 4:24 This [is] the service of the families of the Gershonites, to serve, and for burdens:

            Num 4:29 ¶ As for the sons of Merari, thou shalt number them after their families, by the house of their fathers;
            Num 4:30 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old shalt thou number them, every one that entereth into the service, to do the work of the tabernacle of the congregation.

            Num 4:35 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation:

            Num 4:39 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation,

            Num 4:43 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation,

            Num 4:46 ¶ All those that were numbered of the Levites, whom Moses and Aaron and the chief of Israel numbered, after their families, and after the house of their fathers,
            Num 4:47 From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation,

            So John has to be 6 months older than Jesus.

          • The Scripture does not say Mariam got conceived RIGHT AWAY? Then, when, when doe it say? Don’t take the Scripture as an encyclopedia to satisfy all your wish to know.

            • so how long did it take for her to get pregnant? I assumed as soon as she agreed to it……a year later?

              • Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
                Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
                Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
                Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

                According to this Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Gabriel appeared to Mary so with this passage and the fact that a minster didn’t start his ministry until the age of 30 and Jesus was about 30 when he was baptised indicates that Mary became with child within days after this encounter with the angel. Mary was 3 months pregnant when John was born.

                Luk 3:1 ¶ Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar… 2 the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
                Luk 3:21 ¶ Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
                Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
                Luk 3:23 ¶ And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was [the son] of Heli,

                John was born in the spring and Jesus in the autumn. Jesus was 33 and a half years old when he died. He died in the spring.

                Come on people, study your Bible and stop listening to men.

                • John was born in Spring? Where does the Scripture say?

                  • Are you wilfully ignorant or do you have to work hard to be so stupid?

                    Jesus was 30 when he was baptised and his ministry lasted 3 and a half years. He died in the spring. John was 6 months older. John’s mother was 6 months pregnant when Mary became pregnant.

                    Please tell me you can’t be so stupid.

                    • ok david..

                      be patient and polite please….

                    • Well I am sick of repeating myself.

                    • David, I’m proud of being stupid so that I can only trust the Bible. Now, you keep telling me that John had to be born in spring because Yeshua’s ministry was 3 and 1/2 years long, etc. etc. These are all man’s conjecture. You have no proof from the Bible to support John was born in spring and Yeshua was born in the fall. Born in Festival of Booths, where they built booths (tents) and then I read that Mariam did not have a room, a place, etc. etc. You believe man’s; I am fool to believe what the Bible says. I thought Christians have faith in the Scripture, not man’s.
                      If you have proof and references which digs into the facts, not conjecture, let me know. Otherwise we are playing mules.

                  • Oun
                    i am on your side. We can not say from the scriptures when Jesus was born. Period!

                    • The Bible only gives you a rough estimate of when he was born. We can not pin it down to an exact day.

                      And it is probably just as well as we would probably just turn it into an idol like Christmas is now.

                      We know Jesus was about 30 when baptised. We know a levi priest couldn’t start his ministry until he was 30. We know Jesus’ ministry lasted 3.5 years. We know he died in the spring on the Passover. Do the maths. That is as close as you are going to get it.

                • david

                  I see it the same way you do.

                  I was trying to get Oun to think about what he was saying and what else was said.

        • Correct, Yeshua was not born in mid winter, it does get very cold in that region, it even snows at times. Yeshua was born in a temporary shelter or succa. This is like the type of temporary shelter built during Succot or feast of Tabernacles, the last yearly feast of Yah and a pilgrimage feast. Jews in the land are commanded to sleep in the family succa which often has branches of leafy trees for a roof. At any rate it could not have been mid winter, much less during one of the pagan feasts.

          • Jesus was born in a manger.

            Strong’s G5336 – phatnē
            1) a crib, a manger

            Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
            AV — manger 3, stall 1.

            You are making an assumption thinking he was born at the time of the feast of Tabernacles. Maybes he was but there is no Scripture indicating this. The reason why Joseph and Mary were in Bethlehem was for the tax decree and census ordered by Augustus Caesar not because it was a feast day.

        • John was 6 mo older the Yeshua – it says so in Lk 1:36.
          But does it prove that Lk 1:26 ‘6th month’ means same thing of Elizabeth. Even Maxwell (https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/signs-in-the-heavens/ provided by Marianne) says it was the 6th month of the Hebrew calendar, but calculating wrongly to arrive at His birth month. Somehow he forget how to add 9 months correctly.

      • Kwon, the Gospel of Luke IS NOT the only source of indicating the Birthdate of Jesus.
        The Gospel of John (John 1:14)…The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”…The actual Greek Word for dwelling in this context is Tabernacled. So it actually reads…”The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us”
        Jesus was born sometime during The Feast of Tabernacles!

  63. Complete Jewish Bible, Santa Biblia, NVI, dont know if their English version reads the same, I am sure there are others, will check later.

  64. Have you considered the season that Zachariah, Elizabeth’s husband, was serving at the Temple?

  65. Adama I was raised in a country were the birth of the one renamed ieoseus cristos was also celebrated Jan 6. I have long ago learned this is yet another pagan celebration like xmas Dec 25 or iskstar. The Almighty gave His chosen people, Israel, 7 feasts or sacred appointment times and Yeshua was born in one of them.

  66. David, Shofar, Shoshana and Glenn,

    From research and Scriptures presented in “Signs in the Heavens” – I concluded that the King of kings was conceived (life begins at conception), during Feasts of Tabernacles. This occurred the month following the angel visiting Mary, telling her what to expect.

    Nine months later, our Lord was born on the 17th of Tamuz (Hebrew calendar), which is just before summer of that year. This date is significant, fulfilling prophecy – turning a day of sorrow into joy!

    Please read the link below and leave your comments.



    • In that blog article I see DJ Maxwell loves playing prophecy games : -)

      Aside from his mumbo-jumbo on that, there is one that draws my eyes. As he writes (after studying with software Stellarium, which is by the way a good program), that Jesus was born 17th of Tammuz (June/July) in BC2. So precise!!

      Was it during the feast of tabernacles also+ ;-<

      Believe or not, we are all fools. We don't know much about facts, truths – we always copy from what others say and those others copy from others, in endless chain. All these may be good, but put lots of salt in it before you want bet your neck on it. As for me, it does not matter for all humanity's sake whether He was born this month or that month; whether He died Wed, Thu, Fri, etc, etc. They are all without any substance. What we do care is how and what the Scripture tells us in its wonderful harmony in toto – not by a verse here, or a phrase here. What's why we have to listen to those who think different and have different ideas so that only truth can come out.

      BTW, you all remember 'three days and three nights', to come up with Wed crucifixion AND Sat. evening resurrection scenario? Well, 3D and 3N is an accurate statement, but it does not mean that for that period of time He was buried. "In the heart of the earth (Land)" means Jerusalem, not an underground grave.

      • Oun Kwon,

        Yes it is precise.

        God’s work is not by accident, coincidental, or random. He placed a sign in the heavens for wise men to see. Then, they came to worship Him, while the noble men and leaders in Jerusalem were blind to the event. Thank you Father God.

        Life begins at conception. His conception was within 30 days of the angels visit to Mary (6th month), because this unique “star” formed during Feasts of Tabernacles, which is in the 7th month and during Feasts of Tabernacles.

        You want a date of conception? It was probably the 11th of September of that year on a Gregorian calendar. The zenith of the configuration of Jupiter and Venus within Leo matches with that date by the working of astronomy not astrology. You got the time, then download the astronomy software and see.

        9 months after conception – the “Star of Bethlehem” was formed (His birth) under Leo. This “Star of Bethlehem” formed (zenith of the bright “star”) on the 17th day of Tamuz.

        I asked the same question regarding His birth and discovered (led) to the answer (summarized above) by applying astronomy, history and Scripture together, sharing that study.

        The bonus information is the sign in the heaven (Rev. 12:1-5), occurring on Feasts of Trumpets, September 29, 2011. That event is the sign in the heavens of His soon return. It is also very precise.

        Since specific information within Revelation chapter 12 (“signs in the heaven”) was evident above us on September 29, 2011 ~ I think we’re within what is known as the tribulation period. There are other interpretations and understanding of Scripture regarding the end of the age and His soon return. The linked page and my comments represents a study and my understanding of signs in the heavens.

        But, what is most important is to Believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Messiah (1st John 5). He is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world ~ for those who believe, accepting Him their personal blessed Messiah and Lord. Blessed be the name of the LORD.

        Psalm 71:1-3

        • The “star” that the wise men saw was not a conjunction of planets. It was a group of angels.

          • the wisemen must have spent several months in travel to get there. you think that the star was “angels” ?

            • Yes, I do.

              2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

              Act 12:7 And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon [him], and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from [his] hands.

        • You try it give THE date? Why you say ‘probably’? Why 30 days – so that you can claim 9/11 is the day to be or some date in Tammuz? How convenient!

          What purpose do these serve for you and for other? You say astronomy. The way you read the sky is not astronomy, but astrology game ;-<

      • I have to say Mr. Maxwell must have been confused in arithmetic. He says Lk 1:26 ‘in the sixth month’ Gabriel announced to Mariam of her conception, it is the month of Hebrew calendar. Of course he was right on the spot. It cannot be ‘of Elizabeth’s pregnancy’ which he told her in his announcement in v. 36.
        Now, if you count 9 month forward, it will be the third month of the Hebrew calendar, which is Sivan (the month we have the Festival of Sukkot). He says it is the month of Tammuz (a month later). I think he was thinking of gestation period of 30 days x 10 months. The mean gestation for the pregnancy is about 270 days.

        Not only that the date he gave 17th of Tammuz (I wonder how one could be of such precision – mind-boggling), it is not July 7th. It in Jute 19 in Julian. see several conversion programs such as http://www.rosettacalendar.com/

        Not only that he got confused again. He claims (of course, by copying from what others saying) that it was during the Festival of Sukkot, whereas Sukkot is in Tishri (7th month) – which would come in another three months!

        What I am trying to say is that we all have limited knowledge. What little knowledge (which is dangerous) we have is not our original, but simply copying of others, which is again copying of others, and so on. However, given the data – Scripture text, historical data, and astronomical data (not in the way astrology games of prediction) – we should be able to search through to come up with a conclusion or a non-conclusion as long as it stays harmonious of the whole Scripture. Of course, everything we say or assert has to have a disclaimer and we have to clear to others what assumptions we base our explanation and conclusion. Because Christianity is not a religion, nor a religious system, but ‘being Christ-centered’ for our life – personal and corporate as His body. In ancient times, events ARE dates; they did not deal with what year, month, day, something happened, etc. They all get along to know an event happened in relation to other events. Whether He was born other than 3 BC, He died other than 30 AD, whether it was other than Wednesday, whether he rose on other than Sunday, all these are nothing but shells we may enjoy (like peeling layers off an onion). But I would say, just like physics, explanations, when plausible and not contradicting logic and calculations, are rightfully accepted until prove otherwise later on. E.g. The Sun goes around the earth – was it wrong to those people (majority of humanity)? No, not at ll. Galileo did not prove the earth was going around the Sun. What he got was with the Sun at the center, most of things which had been observed with advent of telescope, could be explained much cleaner and simpler. Was he proved right at the end with heliocentric theory? Only for a while. Because we now know everything is relational, esp. in motion. Every thing is at the center of motion; it’s simply matter of frame of reference. So, it is not a theory of RELATIVITY, but actually theory of RELATIONALITY. Not only relevant in physics, but this equally in theology. Unless we understand everything in theology (God, love, trinity, faith, heaven and earth, sin, judgment, judgment, sabbath, festival, rites and rituals, righteousness, etc. etc.) all in terms of relationality, we would remain stuck for ever; with ‘god’ as someone existing somewhere which has nothing to do with non-god beings. I exist not because I think, but exist because I am to others. I do not have my existence, something like a stone or a concept, but find my existence because of “other”. God exists, yes. But God exists only because of ‘other’ – what He has created, creating from His love. God is love. This love is forever radiating out in pure power, it’s God’s spirit of creation-in-process. There cannot be an ‘end’ to creation activity. When Paul says ‘greatest is love’ because God is with us and relates us from eternity to eternity forever creating and renewing us.

        • Oun Kwon,


          Luke 1:26 begins the account of the message given by Gabriel to Mary not “Mariam” as written in your reply.

          This message from Gabriel to Mary was given in the 6th month of the Hebrew calendar (Elul). One day during this month, Mary was told what was to occur in Her womb – conception.

          “Elul (Hebrew: אֱלוּל, Standard Elul Tiberian ʾĔlûl) is the twelfth month of the Jewish civil year and the sixth month of the ecclesiastical year on the Hebrew calendar. It is a summer month of 29 days. Elul usually occurs in August–September on the Gregorian calendar.”

          So now, let’s follow the Gregorian calendar as primary and (Hebrew) secondary.

          Luke 1:36-55, presents the discourse between Mary and Elizabeth.

          Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant with John at the time of her conversation with Mary in August (Elul). Remember, Mary is telling Elizabeth what she learned from Gabriel.

          Could it be that Mary was told in August (Elul) and conception occurred in September (Tishri)? The evidence of the heavenly sign (autonomy), leads to an affirmative reply.

          “Tishrei or Tishri (/ˈtɪʃriː/ or /ˈtɪʃreɪ/; Hebrew: תִּשְׁרֵי or תִּשְׁרִי‎, Standard: Tišre (Tišri), Tiberian: Tišrê (Tišrî); from Akkadian tašrītu “Beginning”, from šurrû “To begin”) is the first month of the civil year (which starts on 1 Tishrei) and the seventh month of the ecclesiastical year (which starts on 1 Nisan) in the Hebrew calendar. The name of the month is Babylonian. It is an autumn month of 30 days. Tishrei usually occurs in September–October on the Gregorian calendar.”

          Feasts of Tabernacles occurs during (Tishri), September.

          The sign in the heavens presents evidence that “a star” formed in the month of September 3 BC. This star told the wise men the news of His conception.

          As written within “Signs in the Heavens”,

          “With the assistance of the astronomy software Stellarium (which you can download at no cost at stellarium.org), you can see the ‘star” – formed by the conjunction (coming together) of Jupiter (King planet) with Regulus (King star) in the constellation Leo (lion – King of Judah) during the week of Feasts of Tabernacles between September 10 -17, 3 BC.

          9 months after September (Feasts of Tabernacles) is the month of June.

          The sign in the heavens presents evidence that “The Star of Bethlehem” was at its zenith on the 17th of June, 2 BC. This was the sign leading those wise men to the find Him – the new born King!

          The following explains Hebrew months matches up with Gregorian calendar. This may help.

          “The Jewish calendar is based on three astronomical phenomena: the rotation of the Earth about its axis (a day); the revolution of the moon about the Earth (a month); and the revolution of the Earth about the sun (a year). These three phenomena are independent of each other, so there is no direct correlation between them. On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days. The Earth revolves around the sun in about 365¼ days, that is, about 12.4 lunar months.

          The civil calendar used by most of the world has abandoned any correlation between the moon cycles and the month, arbitrarily setting the length of months to 28, 30 or 31 days.

          The Jewish calendar, however, coordinates all three of these astronomical phenomena. Months are either 29 or 30 days, corresponding to the 29½-day lunar cycle. Years are either 12 or 13 months, corresponding to the 12.4 month solar cycle.

          The lunar month on the Jewish calendar begins when the first sliver of moon becomes visible after the dark of the moon. In ancient times, the new months used to be determined by observation. When people observed the new moon, they would notify the Sanhedrin. When the Sanhedrin heard testimony from two independent, reliable eyewitnesses that the new moon occurred on a certain date, they would declare the rosh chodesh (first of the month) and send out messengers to tell people when the month began.

          The problem with strictly lunar calendars is that there are approximately 12.4 lunar months in every solar year, so a 12-month lunar calendar is about 11 days shorter than a solar year and a 13-month lunar is about 19 longer than a solar year. The months drift around the seasons on such a calendar: on a 12-month lunar calendar, the month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the Spring, would occur 11 days earlier in the season each year, eventually occurring in the Winter, the Fall, the Summer, and then the Spring again. On a 13-month lunar calendar, the same thing would happen in the other direction, and faster.

          To compensate for this drift, the Jewish calendar uses a 12-month lunar calendar with an extra month occasionally added. The month of Nissan occurs 11 days earlier each year for two or three years, and then jumps forward 30 days, balancing out the drift. In ancient times, this month was added by observation: the Sanhedrin observed the conditions of the weather, the crops and the livestock, and if these were not sufficiently advanced to be considered “spring,” then the Sanhedrin inserted an additional month into the calendar to make sure that Pesach (Passover) would occur in the spring (it is, after all, referred to in the Torah as Chag he-Aviv, the Festival of Spring!).

          A year with 13 months is referred to in Hebrew as Shanah Me’uberet (pronounced shah-NAH meh-oo-BEH-reht), literally: a pregnant year. In English, we commonly call it a leap year. The additional month is known as Adar I, Adar Rishon (first Adar) or Adar Alef (the Hebrew letter Alef being the numeral “1” in Hebrew). The extra month is inserted before the regular month of Adar (known in such years as Adar II, Adar Sheini or Adar Beit). Note that Adar II is the “real” Adar, the one in which Purim is celebrated, the one in which yahrzeits for Adar are observed, the one in which a 13-year-old born in Adar becomes a Bar Mitzvah. Adar I is the “extra” Adar.

          In the fourth century, Hillel II established a fixed calendar based on mathematical and astronomical calculations. This calendar, still in use, standardized the length of months and the addition of months over the course of a 19 year cycle, so that the lunar calendar realigns with the solar years. Adar I is added in the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 19th years of the cycle” (http://www.jewfaq.org/m/calendar.htm#Links).

          September (conception sign in the heavens) to June (birth sign in the heavens) is 9 months.

          Proverbs 6:16-19

    • I have given the Bible references and proof. Hey if you don’t want to read it that is fine but I am not going to repeat myself.

  67. John the Baptist was born on 7 July and Jesus six month later in 5 jan.

    • And where do you find that in the Bible?

      • You said it yourself that John is six months older than Jesus and we know in our Church that Jesus is born 5 jan. Scolars has put 25 june as john the baptist day because the put his birth six months earlier then the Catholic Christmas. But the Catholic Christmas is 12 days early from the truth. In europe we celebrate John the baptist birth on 25 jun.

        • That is your tradition.

          If Jesus was about 30 at his baptism then that would make him about 33.5 years old at his death. He died in the spring at the time of Passover. That puts his birth sometime around the fall of 4bc which would put John’s birth around the spring.

  68. David the Star of Bethlehem was not one Angel or a group of Angels!…Your quoting of Scripture means that they are beings that glow or shine (Radiate).Whereas what the Wise men saw were points of light, or a single point of light!…”We saw his star rise in the East”….Sorry but you are quite wrong in your assertion!

  69. Jesus was born in 2 or 3 BC, and NOT 4 or 5 BC as is often stated!.
    This was caused by a wrong interpretation of the writings of Josephus.
    He writes that during the week of Herod’s death there was an Eclipse of the Moon, and that it was abnormally red, which he put down as to all the blood that Herod had spilled!
    Historians thought it was the eclipse of 4BC, but that was on a partial eclipse,as seen from Jerusalem, and would not have turned the Moon any shade of red!
    The only Lunar eclipse it could have been was in January 1BC!
    Which is when Herod actually died!
    Which means Jesus was born in either 3 or 2 BC, and I believe during the Feast of Tabernacles!

    • Glenn,

      I agree with you because the evidence you present matches up with the evidence presented in history, Scriptures and the astronomy software. There were two planets (“wondering stars”), which formed the brightest “star” in the night sky. This sign (formed in Leo) wasat the time of His conception, which occured during Feasts of Tabernacles. Life begins at conception – as it did with our Lord. John the Baptist, sure was happy with the news that Mary told Elizabeth.

      “…when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe [John] leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For indeed, as soon as the voice of your greeting sounded in my ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. Blessed is she who believed, for there will be a fulfillment of those things which were told her from the Lord” (Luke 1:41-45, NKJV).

      So then, maybe you can appreciate the sign in the heavens on September 29, 2011.

      Rev. 12:11

  70. Hi DJ,
    So what was the sign in the sky on Sept 29th 2011, and what did it mean?

  71. Hi All,

    Though I don’t believe that it really matters when He was born, (only that He is and was and is to come), here’s my 2 cents regarding Yeshua’s possible date of birth.

    I would argue, (not that I am arguing), that there is more scriptural evidence to suggest that He was born on Sukkot, (or the Feast of Tabernacles.)

    Some of the reasons that I believe that this date is more than likely the case are;

    That Yeshua’s cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan, (our May or June), and born 40 weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover.

    John’s father, (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the Temple during the course of “Abia” the 8th. course of the year. (see Luke 1:5., and 1 Chronicles 24:10.)
    Since the cycle of service started on the first Shabbat of Nisan, (but both Passover and Shavu’ot (Pentecost), require for all priestly course to serve), the actual time that the 8th. course would serve, would then be the 10th. week of the year.
    This then would place Zacharias’s service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan, (our May/June).
    Scripture states that John was conceived shortly after Zacharias’s time of service within the Temple, (Luke 1:23,24.)
    Therefore John was more than likely conceived in late Sivan, after the 3rd. Sabbath of the month.
    This would then mean that John was born around Passover or Nisan 15th.

    Scripture states, that Yeshua was conceived 6 months after John the Baptist, (Luke 1:24-27, and 36.) Note that the “sixth month” refers to Elizabeth’s pregnancy and not the month of Elul, (Luke 1:36).
    If you add 6 months from late Sivan, you arrive at late Kislev, which then would be the conception date of Yeshua.
    (Something else to take note of here, is that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th. day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the “light of the world”, (John 8:12., 9:5., 12:46.) )

    From the 15th. day of Nisan, (which is John’s Birthday) if we add 6 months, we arrive at the 15th. day of the 7th. month of Tishri, (which is the 1st. day of the Feast of Sukkot or Tabernacles.) This would then have some Biblical significance, for if the day of His birth were to be the 1st. of Sukkot, that would mean that His circumcision would be on the 8th. day.
    The 8th. day is Shemini Atzeret/Simchat Torah, which like the 1st. day, is a day of sacred assembly, (Leviticus 23:39.).
    It is on this day that the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings, and start all over again from Bereshit, (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of “fulfillment” of the Torah. For Yeshua to be circumcised on this day, it would be representative of Him in how He had come to “fulfill the Law and the Prophets”, (Matthew 5:17,18.).

    Some circumstantial evidences that would also suggest that Yeshua was born on Sukkot, rather than on Yom Teru’ah would be, in John 1:14 it states that “The Word became flesh and “dwelt” with us.” The English word “dwelt” was translated from the transliterated Greek word “skēnoō” (Strong’s 4637) and its definition are as follows; “to fix one’s tabernacle, have one’s tabernacle, abide (or live) in a tabernacle (or tent), tabernacle. to dwell.” This would then correlate to the relevance to the “Mishkan” as well.

    The Feast of Sukkot would have been the most likely choice for King Herod to use to conduct the census in Jerusalem as well, (rather than that of Chanukah), because not only did he fear the Hasmoneans, but he detested them also.

    Shepard’s would most certainly not be out with their sheep in the middle of winter in Israel. The angel who appeared to the shepherd’s said, “Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” (Luke 2:10.)
    Since Sukkot was a known as both a Festival of “Joy” and as a “Festival of Nations”, the angel would have actually been giving the shepherds the greeting for the Festival of Sukkot. Sukkot is the only Festival where the Nations are positively encouraged to participate, (Zechariah 14:16-19.)

    After Yeshua returns and establishes His Millennial Kingdom on earth, scripture states that the only Festival that will be celebrated by the nations will be Sukkot. (Zechariah 14:16.) The possible reason for that would be because it will be a world wide commemoration to celebrate His birth as the Son of man. Simply because at this time each and every other Festival in itself will have been fulfilled. However the remembrance of His birth, may very well remain as a world wide celebration.

    One of the easiest ways to arrive at the correct date is to simply do the following equation. Scripture tells us that Yeshua was 30 years old when He started His ministry, (Luke 3:23.) and assuming, (as many Biblical scholars do), that He ministered for a period of 3 and 1/2 years, we can then count backwards 6 months from the date of His crucifixion, (during Passover in Nisan), and discover that His birthday would be in Tishri, and that of the Festival of Sukkot, where He then “tabernacled” with man, as He will again do, at a future date and time.

    Be Blessed in Yeshua our KING of kings and LORD of lords.

    • [Before I go further, I have to mention that the duration of Yeshua’s ministry is not 3 and 1/2, but 2 and 1/2. From AD 27 with three Passovers in AD 28, 29, and lastly 30 when He was crucified. For 3 1/2 year conjecture, they have to show another Passover during His ministry. Of course, there is no more than three. They have to make up one, trying to justify their claim.]

      You say,

      …. there is more scriptural evidence to suggest that He was born on Sukkot, ….

      How nice and smart! – truly I say.

      Why, in Lk 1:5, 23 Luke with his ever keen historical-mindedness tells us that when Abiayah was in rotation of priestly service Gabriel announced to him that his wife Elisheba was to bear a son (Yohanan). If we know when was this, we will surely know when exactly Mariam got conceived and when Yeshua would be born, as far as the month is conconcerned.

      So, when was John the Baptist born?
      here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gary.h.turner/XmasSept/xmas08.htm
      And this one,
      http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=467 (talking about BC 4)

      Can we then nail it down to come up the month of Yeshua’s birth, if not the very date?

      Sadly, we CANNOT.

      I am quoting from http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/2304/

      … A list of priestly divisions can be found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-18, which is usually dated by scholars to the fifth century B.C.E. There is no mention there, however, of any fixed order of service. Only in post-biblical traditions is it mentioned that the priestly divisions served according to a weekly rotation system. … Nazareth was the home of the eighteenth priestly division … In 1962 excavators discovered in the ruins of a synagogue at Caesarea a small piece of a list of the twenty-four priestly divisions. … Until that discovery there was no record of Nazareth’s existence before the sixth century C.E., other than in the New Testament and later Christian literary sources.
      Abijah was the eighth priestly division. The priestly rotation began in the Hebrew month of Nisan (mid-March to mid-April), and therefore the division of Abijah would have served at the end of Iyyar (mid-April to mid-May) and again at the end of Marheshvan (mid-October to mid-November).
      Although Zechariah’s division finished its service at the end of Iyyar or Marheshvan, we have no way of knowing exactly when this was. The divisions rotated on the Sabbath, but the Sabbath rarely fell exactly at the end of the month. We can never be sure of the exact date when a priestly division began or ended its duty period. Priests of Abijah, for instance, may have ended their spring week of service from the twenty-eighth of Iyyar to the fourth of Sivan.
      Like the other divisions, the priests of Abijah served in the temple for one week twice a year. We cannot be sure whether the events connected with Zechariah mentioned by Luke took place during the week of his division’s spring or autumn service. We also do not know how the divisions compensated for the additional month of Adar that was placed into the calendar twice every seven years. Therefore, we have no way of knowing exactly when Zechariah served. For the same reasons, it is IMPOSSIBLE to calculate the date of Jesus’ birth based on the time of Zechariah’s service. [capitalized by me.]

      How disappointing! But life has to go to deal with much uncertainties and deficiencies in your knowledge. Whatever idea we may come up, it has to be in harmony of logic, reason, and the Word of God – free from man’s traditions and presuppositions. We have to be honest and humble to the last breath of our life. Thankfully, with the Lord our shepherd, we have no other needs – we don’t have to have (and we cannot have) all the knowledge we like to. Our goal in life is to live on, keeping the name of our heavenly father honored and sanctified.

      • Jesus’ ministry as Christ was actually 7 years if we are being Scripturally accurate. 3.5 years in person and 3.5 years through the Apostles.

        There are actually four passovers listed in the gospels.

        Jhn 2:23 ¶ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast [day], many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

        Jhn 5:1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

        Jhn 6:4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.

        Jhn 13:1 ¶ Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

        There are only three feasts that require a Jew to visit Jerusalem, Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles.

        Jesus was baptised in the fall of 27AD. His first Passover as Christ was 28AD, his 2nd 29AD, his 3rd 30AD, and his fourth in 31AD(the year he died).

        I agree with you that we can not pin down the birth of Jesus. But with a little Scripture detective work we can narrow it down within a couple of months in the fall, probably September/October.

      • Okay, Okay there Oun Kwon,

        Don’t be getting your “tighty whites” all in a knot over something that can’t be proved definitively one way or the other.
        I offered my 2 cents and that offering has as much validity as that of yours, whether you happen to agree with it, or wish to argue the matter is pointless.
        He was born, He Died, and He has arisen. Amen.

        I do appreciate your sarcastic and condescending overtones though. lol.
        That being “sanctified and fashioned into His image” is a tough one huh?
        I speak personally as well, for that just happens to be some of my many personal short-comings too.


        Be Blessed in Yeshua HaNazarei Yemelekh HaYhudim.


  72. Oun Kwon,

    Please, save the 😦

    Consider downloading the free astronomy software, seeing for yourself – then make an informed opinion on the science and share your thoughts with me.

    Oh, there is another “professional” presentation on the date of His birth that you can watch – the link is on the right of this page and below.

    This presentation offers a different assessment on the date of His birth.

    What the producers of this video do not realize is the configuration of specific planets, moon and Virgo that occured on September 29, 2011 (Feast of Trumpets) as a “sign in the heavens” (Revelation 12:1-5). This sign on September 29, 2011 (like the sign in the heavens of His first coming) is notice of His soon return.

    The professional presentation was produced years before 2011.



    • None of these software programs will tell you when the Abib harvest turned green. Was it before the new moon in early March or was it 29.5 days later before the new moon in April?

      They can’t tell you that vital piece of information. And that is why they are not reliable.

    • Astrology games you love so much! You can prove anything you want.

  73. Where does it say the star was a “group of angels”? Actually the bible talks about angels announcing the birth with shofars (trumpets) but it clearly speaks of a star that the large group of ‘wise’ men (probably 70 representing the nations, plus their servants and guards) followed for well over a year.

  74. Just cause the adversary can show up as an angel of light or even virgin Mary is no reason to think all stars are angels…

  75. Adama with due respect just because a given man- made denomination says something that does not make it so. Take Catholics for instance they believe the in Eucharist, praying to Mary and the saints even though not only is this not in scripture, scripture actually forbids it. The Jan 5 day is a proven pagan date as is 25 of December, as is lent. There is no evidence whatsoever that Yeshua’s cousin, Yochanan the immenser (“John” the “baptist”) was born in July. In all likelihood he was born in Passover which would put Yeshua’s birth 6 months later in the fall.

    • Hi Shoshanna,


      By the above comment submitted by Adama, you may have well realized that Adama is….. well…… rather unique.

      He believes that Yeshua has returned, swills beer, and has a couple of wives and kids stashed away in Sweden or somewhere there about.
      All of which is completely Biblically sound of course. lol.
      So, you can choose to debate the matter with him with no positive results being attained, or simply smile and let it go.

      It’s all up to you.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Everything.

  76. Shoshana
    Eucharist is somethin that is mentioned in the NT and the Apostles even broke bread and drunk wine for memeory of Jesus. Jesus even said take this bread and share it because it is my body and drink this wine it is my blood. You can not be Christian if you don´t share Eucharist.

    Praying to Mary and other saints is worng but nobodys perfect.

    Jesus is living on Earth and he is in the Vatican now and he is born on 5 jan this time too.

  77. Alien
    He is from my family. we are relatives.

    • I love you adam….you say the most amazing things

    • Nope sorry,

      Alien doesn’t always mean extraterrestrial Adam.
      I was born on this planet.
      You ???
      Well I guess that is yet to be determined.

      But I am pretty sure that you and I aren’t related, (I’m pretty sure that we don’t even share the same haploid set of chromosomes.)


      • We are all related to Noah’s three sons.

      • Alien
        A long time ago two priests came from Rome and visited our family in Turkey and said that Jesus would be born in our family. They indicated year and the date and who would feed him. It became exact ly as they said. This year, that date, that woman in the family as they claimed that she would bear a son. I am a cousin to him. The reason that he would be born in our family is that he would be born in his own blood. They told me that he is Jacob Israel and Adam, the first man, and since this is his own blood, we are family. Whether you like it or not 🙂

        • Why exactly would Christ want to be born again when he did it a little over 2000 years ago?

          He has done that already, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt so to speak. He is already 100% human and 100% divine.

          • David
            Their is no eternal body. They have given us from info. Jesus will be old die and be born again over and over again. When the sciptures says Messiah will not see the grave it means his soul will not rest in the grave but go to his father in heaven.

  78. Soon you will understand that I talk the truth.

  79. Adama I suggest you stop taking whatever drugs or medication you are on!…..Having said that though, I’m sure there is a great opening for a career in writng Sci-Fi magazines!

    • Glenn
      The only drug i am taking is coffee. My cousins mother was pregnant by the holy spirit. Hospital told us that Jesus/Jakobs mothers husband is not the father to the child 🙂

  80. Well Adama, all I can say is….Coffee has a lot to answer for!:)

  81. Kwon the word ‘light’ or ‘or’ in v 1 of Genesis or Bereshit refers to the light of the world, Yeshua, who is alev tav (“alpha omega”). If you go into the Hebrew you will see the importance these two Hebrew letters play in all this. Yeshua is the light that was and that will be.

    • Shoshana,
      Yeshua was and IS, and is to come. (rev. 1:8) In the Gospel of John he says “I am the light of the world.” I wanted to clarify this with you, because Lucifer, the light bearer/ Antichrist was and is NOT and is to come (rev. 17:8). So Yeshua is the alpha and omega, and everything in between….He is the Word of God.

    • Everything in the Bible is to be considered literal unless clearly spiritual. Genesis 1 is clearly literal in nature.

  82. Kwon 3 days and 3 nights would have been exactly between 3PM (death) and 6PM (burial). He did say He is the Lord of the Sabbath.

    • If you are born on Saturday at 5.55pm that is your first day even though you only been born 5 minutes. The next day would be his 2nd day of life. The following Saturday would be his 8th day. This would be the day he would be circumcised, it is his 8th day even though he has only been born a week.

      Jesus was in the heart of the Earth from the moment he was arrested early Friday morning of Abib or Nissan 14. He was nailed to the cross at 9am and there was darkness from 12pm to 3pm and he died at 3pm and was quickly buried because the sun was setting and the Sabbath was coming. This is the first day and night

      Thursday night/Friday = 1st night/1st day
      Friday night/Saturday = 2nd night/2nd day
      Saturday night/Sunday = 3rd night/3rd day

      The Bible is so clear that it amazes me how people can see it differently.

  83. Alienated I totally agree, thanks

  84. Adama the word ‘Eucharist’ does not appear in the writings of the apostles. When Yeshua took the bread and wine He was symbolically using them to represent the price that He paid for Israel, His bride. Remember Yeshua is Jewish and would never do anything like the transmutation claimed by the Roman church.
    Israel became as an adulterous wife (spiritually) and there are ten curses given in Torah which Yeshua took upon Himself as the loving husband He is. In Yom Kipur we also see this when a husband can rescind the wife’s promises thus sparing her the curses for not keeping her part of the deal. Yeshua as Israel’s Kinsman redeemer paid the price with his body and blood on the staurus or tree (cross was the symbol of tau). Gentiles are supposed to be grafted unto Israel, Rom 11, but the bride has always been Israel whom He had divorced making her a widow when He died . The terms of the pact or new testament were changed so that Instead of being external resulting in man breaking them now Torah can be circumcised in the heart of Judah and of Israel, Jer 31:31-34.
    Anytime there is a change to the terms of a testament you have to draw a new one, thus new testament signified by the bread and wine but at no moment it was changing into the actual blood and body of Yeshua as the Roman church has taught. This teaching like so many others was inherited by Rome from Babylonian sources. The round wafer itself signified the sun deity. The initials i h s supposedly stand for iesus hominun salvador but if you were a follower of isis, a popular goddess at the time, it would mean isis horus seb, the Babylonian trinity injected into Christianity by the new Gentile leadership of the church as by then it had changed hands from Jewish to Gentile and Rome had kept up the persecution of Jews.

  85. OK Adama, Yeshua (His people never knew Him as ‘Jesus’, not even as ieosus) was born long before any priests were traveling around. Actually Rome did have priests but they were all pagan priests, like dagon the fish god whose hat the pope still wears…

    At the time of Yeshua’s birth the Jewish priesthood had changed hands from being wholly Aaronic to… Roman bought so they could keep Jews in check. Ananias and Caiaphas answered to Rome. Their headquarters was in Jerusalem, not Turkey. Messiah was supposed to have been born from the line of King David in Beit lechem (Bethlehem), the house of bread, a town were all are said to have been related to King David. This is what scripture says. There are no scriptures stating the real Messiah, Yeshua Ben Yosef, was born in Turkey.

    On the other hand, there is always the possibility that the anti-Messiah could be born in another Middle East country such as Turkey, but not the real Savior who will soon return as a Torah observant Jew recognized by His brethren as Moshiach Ben David. When He returns with His army of angels the whole world will see Him.

    • Shoshana
      NT tells us that they shared bread (body) and wine (blood) for forgivness of sins. Roman Church is based on this teaching. If you say this is false then you say NT is false.
      Jesus was from Betlehem 2000 years ago but Rev 12-1-4 doesn´t say that he will be born again in Betlehem. This verses tells us that he will be reborn. If you don´t know it, Jesus family fled to Turkey after Jesus left them.

      Jesus /Jacob is not a Torah observant in this life. Where do you find such info????

  86. Very interesting….Jesus was, and is, and is to come!….The Anti-Christ was, now is not, and is to come!…The Apostle John wrote that around 90AD, so it gives us something to ponder eh?

    • Hello Glenn,
      That Phrase, “was and is and is to come” ties into the very name of God as revealed to Moses.

      Regarding the beast, this in fact means that he is not Rome. the seventh that becomes the eighth. After going to perdition. U.S. ? Muslim Caliphate? The only two that fit the described events in revelation 17.

      Roman Catholic church= false prophet? Note it has two horns right now!? But then there is rev.13:12 excercises authority of first beast in its presence?

      unless pope # 1 is first beast referred to here, not the beast of rev. 13:1-10.?

      Some more stuff to ponder.

      God bless.

      • There are two beasts in Rev. 13.

        A beast is a king or a kingdom, a nation(state), see Daniel 7:17, 23.

        The first beast came from the sea.

        What is the sea in prophecy?

        The sea or waters are peoples, multitudes, kindreds and nations, see Rev. 17:15; Isa 17:12, 13.

        So this beast, this kingdom came from a densely populated area.

        It has the body of the leopard, the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion.

        The leopard was the 3rd beast of Daniel 7. The leopard was Greece. The leopard is the fastest land animal on Earth. Greece conquered the then known world in just 8 years under Alexander and then after Alexander’s death his generals divided Greece into 4 kingdoms hence the four heads on the beast. Greece was and still is known for its education system of philosophy. So the sea beast has the education of Greece. The system of degrees and phd are all of Greek origin.

        It has the feet of a bear. The bear was the second beast of Daniel 7. The bear was Medo-Persia. Medo-Perisa was known for its laws. That no law signed by the king could be changed or abolished.

        So the sea beast would claim infallibility.

        It has the mouth of the lion. The lion was the first beast of Daniel 7. The lion was Babylon. Babylon was known for its pomp and pride and idols. Nebuchadnezzar said in Daniel 4 “Is this not great Babylon that I have built?”

        So the sea beast would be full of pride, pomp and idols.

        Rev. 13 says it would rule for 1260 days or 3 and a half years or 42 months. A day in prophecy equals a year(Num. 14:34; Eze 4:6). So 1260 days is 1260 years.

        So we are looking for a power that ruled the world for 1260 years, has the education system of Greece, has the infallibility traits of Persia, has the pride, pomp and idols of Babylon. Hmmm I wonder who that could be?

        I haven’t got time right now to go into depth further.

        • David,

          I see the U.S. as the beast out of the sea…composed of many nations and its leader as the one. “Born” in Hawaii…from the sea Literal, and nation composed of many nations symbolic meaning. As a non monarchy, a beast without crowns Literally. Mortal wound to come?

          I see the dragon as the Mahdi of islam His time will be short. Attack Israel.

          The Pope as the false prophet…who currently has two horns (rare event) where one excercises authority in the presence of the other…literally.

          • I think we have the right players, but each have them in different roles.
            Leopard =Africa, Bear =Asia, Lion =England/Europe

            Bho from Africa (Kenya), Feet of a bear (communist upbringing) Mouth of Lion (English speaking) Something to consider as well

            • Ot says leopard is greece, bear is medo persia, lion is babylon/assyria

              it may be possible that they have new meanings…but why not consider the OT definitions?

              in today’s terms, it spells out the muslim brotherhood which now has the same territory

              • Marianne,
                When Daniel was written, yes, this was the case. And again, I agree with David’s list below. What my assumption is based on is the migration of cultures. Greece survived the Longest in North Africa under the Ptolemaic dynasty, ending with Cleopatra. Throughout the dark ages, Greek philosophy/culture survived in Moorish north Africa, and spread via Spain back into Europe during the Renaissance. So during the time of revelation, John well could have equated the leopard with Africa.

                The same can be said of Persian culture being Asia. Note also, the verses in question say “like a leopard”, “Feet of a bear” “Mouth of a lion”. If Asia is a bear, where would its feet be? If Europe is a Lion, where would its mouth be?

                Babylon of course was used of Rome By John thus Babylon survived in European culture.

                Now there are any number of ways to make this fit. David thinks the Vatican is the little horn? You believe the new Islamic Caliphate is the first beast. I think the Current superpower who is being led towards perdition, it is the seventh, and its current leader becomes the eighth. I guess we will find out. That’s the beauty of symbolic language. It keeps us guessing.

                • hi dru

                  what you say may be true….I see the main body of the leopard as being most of the muslim states..old grecian empire….the feet mean that is what makes the beast move…and right now it is Iran (medo-persia)….it has a mouth of a lion ( Iraq. babylon) although i think armadinejad has the biggest mouth on the planet.

                • We don’t need to guess. The Bible explains itself. Any interpretation has to be built on Scripture. It can’t be of any private interpretation. We should know what the symbols represent and mean. It has to be line upon line, line upon line, here a little and there a little.

                  What is the sea in prophecy? It is people, nations, etc. Rev 17:15 and Isa. 17:12, 13.

                  What is wind in prophecy? Wars and strife. Jeremiah 25:32,33 “Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth. And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth.”

                  Bible prophecy is like a code. You need to know what the symbols mean.

                • The Vatican is the little horn of Daniel 7.

                  The lion = Babylon
                  Bear = Medo-Persi
                  Leopard = Greece(the four heads represent the four generals who divided Greece after Alexander’s death)
                  Dragon = Pagan Rome
                  10 horns = Western Europe
                  Little Horn = Papal Rome

                  The Vatican came up after Rome. It came up among the 10 kingdoms of Western Rome. It is a very small kingdom. It had uprooted 3 of the 10 kingdoms and ruled for 1260 years from 538 to 1798. It received a deadly wound in 1798. It lost its power on the state. It thought to change times and laws by changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, it thought to remove the commandment regarding idols. The laws the pope speaks is infallible.

                  • David,
                    There are also 1290 days from the time of solomons temple being destroyed to when the dome of the rock is built, and the 1260 years from there to the re-founding of Israel in 1948-688-691-598-601bc. Which would indicate Islam as the beast.

                    Which brings to mind “zero” and his recent appointees. click the following link. You can just skim it as it is quite long…For Marianne too!

                    And then there are his catholic connections:


                    They are all interconnected. To look at things from only one perspective, is to miss the big picture.

                    Many ex catholics only see Papacy as the enemy, at the expense of all others. This is understandable in light of what they have gone through, but this is what I call reactionary theology. Ex Mormons will do the same with the LDS church, ex muslims with Islam. etc.

                    In fact, many a false religion will feed on this reactionary hatred. The Adventists being one of them. Now I say that not judgementally, but because from what you wrote above, I suspect you might be an Adventist. They have one interpretation of events set in stone. While behind closed doors they back the instituting of the mark of the beast device (Rfid chip) via their Adventist health networks, and backing obamacare. So inadvertently, or purposely, they may in fact be working for the very beast of revelation.

                    That is why I say that this is more complicated and a cleverly devised plan that we are facing from our adversary the Devil. To not see the whole picture is to be blind to the “work of the lawlessness”. For example, if you see the ten crowns only as western Europe, then you may think that the one who comes to the rescue and fights against the catholic church is the Messiah. Islam on the other hand believes that their Mahdi will fight alongside Jesus against the Dajjal who will rule from Jerusalem….which consequently the catholic church is trying to become a protectorate of that city.

                    I would say this to an ex muslim too who only sees the Mahdi as the antichrist. It is far more intricate than that.

                    God bless.

                    • Well at least what I said comes only from the Bible. Not private interprets like yours.

            • Daniel 8:1 tells us the vision of 7 and 8 are to be studied together.

              Dan 8:1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared unto me, [even unto] me Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first.

              The first what? Is it first vision or first year of Belshazzar? Either way, it doesn’t matter. See:

              Dan 7:1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, [and] told the sum of the matters.

              Lion = Babylon
              Bear/ram = Medo-Persia
              Leopard/goat = Greece
              Dragon/Little horn = Pagan Rome
              Little horn/Little horn = Papal Rome

              In Daniel 8 the Little Horn is both Pagan and Papal Rome. The way to tell who is who is whether the pronoun used is a he or a she. When it is Pagan Rome it is always “he” and when it is Papal Rome it is always “it”

              Dan 8:9 ¶ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant [land].

              And out of one of them, the them being one of the four winds of heaven came forth a little horn, which waxed exceedingly great(masculine noun) towards the south(Egypt conquered in 31BC), towards the east(Syria conquered in 64BC) and towards the pleasant land(Palestine conquered in 63BC). This is how Pagan Rome came to rule the then known world and ruled for a time(or 360 years(See Daniel 11:24)) from 31BC until 330AD when Constantine moved the seat of power from Rome to Constantinople.

              Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, [even] to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

              And it(Papal Rome) waxed great.

              Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified [himself] even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [sacrifice] was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

              He(Pagan Rome) magnified himself by crucifying the Son of God and by him(Pagan Rome) the daily was taken away(the pagan daily sacrifices), and the place of his sanctuary was cast down(the seat of power was removed from Rome to Constantinople in 330AD, also the Pantheon was closed).

              Dan 8:12 And an host was given [him] against the daily [sacrifice] by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

              And an host was given it(the word him is supplied and doesn’t belong to the text(the European powers gave their power and authority to Papal Rome from 496 to 508AD)) against the daily(paganism) by reason of transgression(Catholicism), it cast down the truth, it practised and prospered(by murdering millions of true faithful Christians over a 1260 year period from 538 to 1798).

          • The earth beast is the United States of America.

            The sea beast is the little horn of Daniel 7. It is a little horn because it is a very small kingdom. You do your research. I am not going to tell you who it is or was.

            What small kingdom in the recent past(the last 200 years or so) received a deadly wound? What kingdom had its king captured and taken into exile where he died a year later? What kingdom received its land back in 1929?

  87. Thanks for that Dru!
    There are two Beasts, one that comes from the Sea, and the other from the land!….Revelation says that he existed at some time, now he did not, and will come back again!…Could it be that some entity (Evil) like Nero or even Judas will come back from the dead?…or does it mean a world power?..if so which one?…Remember it had to exist in some form in some age prior to the Roman Empire!

    • Glenn
      It is Nero his name is Silvio Berlusconi this time.

    • methinks this is referring to the greeks…not unrealistic, since the same property that covered the greek empire is now owned by the muslims.

      • You are thinking too literally.

        They as world empires don’t exist anymore but their ideologies live on.

  88. Thanks Adama!…..and David have you any books to suggest I read about this apart from the Bible?

  89. dru that is what I said already… 🙂

  90. Adama, as I explained the bread and wine were just that, symbols, not the actual blood and body the church made in Rome claims it is transfigured to. The pagans drank blood and ate flesh under the notion that doing so gave them the attributes of their gods and goddesses. This was part of the four steps they had to leave behind in order to join the body of the Jewish Messiah and then they were expected to go every Sabbath and join the Jews to learn Torah at the synagogues (Acts 15). On the other hand the Roman church is just that, the ROMAN church. It is a man-made political organization based on pagan teachings that they mixed with the truth, they are not the true assembly of Messiah; they only have some of the truth mixed with paganism, which renders them a lukewarm organization.

    Rev 12 does not talk of any rebirth at all. The idea of reincarnation, portrayed by this notion is also pagan, it along with yoga and meditation form the pillars of pagan Eastern religions. The woman in Rev 12 is Israel from whom Yeshua came already. Read on:

    3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

    The Adversary swept a third of the angels (stars) with it to earth. It has tried (in vain) to destroy Messiah and Yah’s creation, something it still does by directly trying to change the DNA of man, animals and plants and by spiritually promoting false pagan religions and seemingly Christian ones that teach things that are not really found in scripture. Notice what happens in verse 7 *, this is an angelical war that will reach a crescendo when Messiah Y’hoshua returns with His army of angels, Rev 19:11-21.

    * 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

    • Shoshana
      Old Jews who believes in Jesus as Messiah reads everything as Israel in the Bible. Rev 12:1-4 halv 5 is fullfilled and this is Jesus second birth as a baptized. Rest of vers 5 will be fullfilled soon. After the doom he will join his father in heaven for a while and then return from heaven to Jerusalem.

      I asked you a question. Where do you find that messiah will be Torah observant????????????

      • The whole of Revelation 12 is already fulfilled.

        • ????

        • David
          When you say Rev. 12 is fullfilled then I know you are lost in your mind.

          • No, it is already fulfilled. The dragon is in a primary sense Satan but in a secondary sense it was the Roman Empire. At Jesus’ birth Herod, an agent of the Roman Empire tried to kill Jesus at his birth by killing all the boys 2 years and under in Bethlehem. Then after Christ’s resurrection he ascended to heaven. After this the woman, the church had to flee into the wilderness to escape the Papal persecutions. In the 1700s the earth, that is the United States swallowed up the persecutions by allowing persecuted people’s to flee there. The dragon was angry with the woman, the church and went to make war with the remnant, last portion of the original, those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

            Fulfilled already.

  91. David Yeshua is literally the alev tav (alpha omega), He is literally light who took the form of man.

  92. David if you are born on a Saturday or Shabbat at 5:55 PM then that is your birth date. From it to to the next Sabbath it would be seven days then Sunday would be your brit milah or circumsicion if you are a boy. You would count 24 hour periods, for instance this year if one was to follow the sighting of the new moon in the Jerusalem area with sufficient aviv barley Passover would have started on the evening of April 26th and the 7th day was the following Thursday, May 2nd.

    • The day you are born is your first day.

      Saturday = 1st
      Sunday = 2nd
      Monday = 3rd
      Tuesday = 4th
      Wednesday = 5th
      Thursday = 6th
      Friday = 7th
      Saturday = 8th

      If you can’t understand or don’t kow the difference between ordinal and cardinal numbers it is not my fault.

    • When you say Passover do you mean the week of Unleavened Bread? Because for me Passover is Nissan 14 and the Feast of Unleavened Bread is Nissan 15 – 21. People have been calling them the same thing for thousands of years and well it is confusing. Assuming your dates are right(I googled Passover this year and got March 25):

      April 26th – Passover lambs killed
      April 27th – first day(sabbath)
      April 28th – 2nd day(First Fruits)
      April 29th – 3rd day
      April 30th – 4th day
      May 1st – 5th day
      May 2nd – 6th day
      May 3rd – 7th day(sabbath)

  93. Very interesting point dru, thanks for pointing it out:

    “I think we have the right players, but each have them in different roles.
    Leopard =Africa, Bear =Asia, Lion =England/Europe

    Bho from Africa (Kenya), Feet of a bear (communist upbringing) Mouth of Lion (English speaking) Something to consider as well”

    Not only that, Kenya was British territory at the time of his birth (according to British records, his father had a son in Kenya in 1961, which is when he was born). The Muslims somehow figure in all this as well as the pope, who represents Rome, the iron legs of the statue who mingles with the nations. Legs are for walking and it is said for centuries the Jesuits (who answer directly to the Pope and we know this one is a Jesuit himself) have had a lot to do with the establishing and toppling of world governments… it is even said Rome is behind the start of the Muslim religion…

  94. As I pointed out I follow the moon sighting around Jerusalem and the aviv barley in sufficient quantities (not just a few ‘volunteer’ patches). While technically the first day is Passover and the others unleavened bread (Chag Ha Matzoth) we do refer to the whole week as Passover for thousands of years.

    This is what it looks like for this year with Shavuot coming up soon:

    April 25, Thursday
    14 Aviv: In ancient times the Passover lamb was slain in the afternoon. This is not an annual Sabbath. At darkness, though, the biblical day changes (Gen. 1:3-5f.) and 14 Aviv gives way to 15 Aviv, the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the first annual Sabbath. The Passover Meal is eaten in the evening on Thursday night, April 25 (the beginning or evening of 15 Aviv).

    3. April 26, Friday 15 Aviv: The first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Lev. 23:7) begins at dark the night before and that is when the Passover meal is eaten (Thursday night, April 25). This day is the first annual Sabbath.

    4. April 28, Sunday 16 Aviv: First Sheaf (aka First Fruits). This is not a Sabbath, but it was the day when the High Priest lifted up the ‘first fruits’ of the spring harvest, the barley grain (Lev.23:9-11) before Yahveh, and also, the day of Yeshua’s first ascension (Jn. 20:17), the first fruits to rise from the dead (1st Cor. 15:20, 23). It begins the evening before.

    5. May 2, Thursday 21 Aviv: The 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Lev. 23:9). The second annual Sabbath. It begins the evening before.

    6. June 16, Sunday
    Shavuot (The Feast of Weeks—Pentecost; Leviticus 23:15-21; Acts 2:1f.). This is the third annual Sabbath. It begins the evening before.

    I think it may be confusing to many because the day starts when it gets dark but one can still count a period of 24 hours from one to the next.
    This is what a week would look like. If a Jewish baby boy was born this year on April 25th then his circumcision would have been on the 8th day, May 3rd.

    • You are thinking in exclusive reckoning terms.

      April 25 – 1st
      26 – 2nd
      27 – 3rd
      28 – 4th
      29th – 5th
      30th – 6th
      May 1st – 7th
      May 2nd – 8th.

      May 2nd would be the 8th day. May 3rd would be the 9th day. You would be a day too late.

  95. David
    I take it you were offended by my comment. I am sorry for that. We are called to be watchmen also, so yes my views take current events into consideration. If you are only looking for the pope, and rome to fulfill all these events, you will be confused into believing someone is who he is not.

    God bless

  96. Adama, this teaching you have learned that Yeshua will come again as a baby and do it all over is non-scriptural, so I pray you will forget it.

    It is written that Yeshua will return as a left, He left as a Jew and will return as one.

    He is to return as Moshiach Ben David, King David was a Jew who did try to follow Torah (albeit fell short many times as many of us do but his heart was in the right place).

    The promises are ALL given to the elected people, Israel, and Israel was given Torah as instructions for living.

    It is written in Heb 8:10-12 which quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 that at the end we will still follow HIS holly Torah. The word “law” in v 33 is’ Torah’ in Hebrew which is the original language Jeremiah was written:

    31 Behold, the days come, saith Yahovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Yahovah.

    33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Yahovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

    34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Yahovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

    • Shoshana
      Yes Jews fill follow Torah in future more then they do today but jesus will not follow Torah. He will return as a Christian which makes him free from Moses lawes. hebrewletter is a message to hebrews.

  97. David

    April 25 – to 26th =1st
    April 26 – to 27th= 2nd
    April 27 – to 28 th =3rd
    April 28 – to 29 th =4th
    April 29 th – to 30 th =5th
    April 30 th –to May1 st = 6th
    May 1st –– to May 2nd=7th

    May 2nd to May 3rd would be the 8th day, which would be the day a Jewish boy born April 25th have his circumcision. It all goes back to viewing the days from a Hebrew rather than a Greek perspective….

  98. Adam, is it possible you are following a false ‘cristos’? Did not Rabbi Shaul (Paul) warned us about it?

    The Father chose a people, Israel, He gave them HIS Torah, then He sent His son, Yeshua, to be born as a Jewish man from Yahudah, the tribe of King David. Yeshua declared He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He followed Judaism all His life as did His disciples. This went on till at least the destruction of the Temple by Romans. After this, it started to change when the leadership of the Jewish group known as Nazarenes or followers of The Way changed hands from Jewish to Gentile. By the early fourth century a new totally different church had emerged, complete with a ‘Christos’ the disciples knew not. This made in Rome cristos is indeed a cristiano, not really a Jew but one that resembled more the Roman deities to which the populous under Roman control could identify with. He even wore a toga, had long hair and assumed pagan poses in portraits such as the two (delicate) fingers up in the air (similar to a Satanic salute). This new cristos or christ did away with the Fathers Torah, including the eternal Sabbath that Yah set aside and blessed on the seventh day of this earth creation.

    The whole enchilada is Jewish/Israelite simply because that is The Way Papa chose. He did not change His way to accommodate Rome or anyone else, nor is He going to. He is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    That is why Jeremiah 31:31-34 reads as it does. He will not return a ‘cristianus’ and be outside His own rules for His own people, Israel and Judah.
    Yeshua will return as He left; a Torah observant Jew, is that simple.

    • Shoshana
      Shaul/Paulus called Peter/Petrus hypocrite when he followed the Jewish laws ehen he was with Jews. Then he stopped being Jewish in front of Jews. So the disciples didn´t follow Jewish laws after the Crusifiction.

      Jesus own people is the people of the earth not only Israel.

      Jesus is living on earth now and he doesn´t follow the tora and he rest on sundays and he is a Christian.

  99. Adam, Adam, you must read Hebrew scriptures with a Hebrew mind set, not with a Greek one. Rabbi Shaul did not tell Peter to stop being Jewish anymore than he would have asked him to stop being a man. Back then there were two choices, Judaism or paganism, that was it. Calling someone ‘hypocrite’ does not equate stopping following Torah, on the contrary in this case they were not following Torah as they should have been. Torah is to be written in the hearts of Israel and Judah (and those Gentiles genuinely grafted unto Israel) so that it can be followed the right way.

    The term ‘cristianus’ was first given to the followers of The Way by others. This is the same word that the followers of Serapis Crestus used in Alexandria Egypt. There are many verses were we can clearly see that the Jewish disciples of Moshiach called themselves Nazarenes or followers of The Way. This last term was a reference to prophetic utterances referring to The Way. They all considered themselves Jews, one of the many groups in Judaism. That is why in Acts 15:21 they expected the new (formerly pagan) converts to attend synagogue every Sabbath to learn Torah.

    I already pointed to the many scriptures that show that Yeshua’s disciples kept Yah’s Sabbath (THE ONLY DAY SET ASIDE AND SANCTIFIED) and and Yah’s feasts or sacred appointments. Also I showed the scriptures that prove that those of us in the millennium will continue observing them as not a yod from the Almighty’s word will go away while this earth and heaven exists. You can believe whatever you like dear but that is not going to change Yah’s eternal decisions for mankind. His words do not change. We either choose to follow Him and His ways or choose not to and follow man instead. The choice is ours.

    Shabbat shalom

    • shoshana
      Jesus gleaned wheat on sabbat on you now that it is forbidden to carry anything on sabbat. Jesus showed them that it was a new covenant on foot.
      It is funny you mention Acts 15:21. Look at a verse earlier and it says don´t have relations outside a marriage and Jesus had sex with Maria M without being married. Jews fasted 2 day every week and Jesus didn´t fast except 40 days in the beginning of his time so stop saying Jesus lived after Jewish law. I don´t accuse Jesus anything only that he showed us a new way. God was in Jesus when he was crusified so God took our sins upon him so we don´t have to follow Moses laws. We are free from the law and that is what Paulus/Saulus teached us.

      • Sorry about Acts 15:20. It doesn´t say we are not allowed to have sex before marriage. I looked at a bad translation who said that. After looking at a better Bible i found out it said something else. But tradition was that you was not allowed to have sex before marriage.

      • adama

        Jesus did not have sex with Mary M….that is from a book,. it is fiction, not truth

        • Yes he had. His father hated him for having sex with her. We in our Church knows more about happended 2000 years ago. You will soon know why we know that.

  100. ounbbi, Interestingly I just received this response from a Jewish leader follower of Messiah Yeshua. I had just sent him some articles about some research I have been doing about the common Christian (and now Messianic often do it too) practice of making a circle and holding hands to pray. The Ruach of the Almighty has been leading to not do this and research its origins (actually pagan, practiced by Gnostics among others). His answer was:

    “No…just that it’s not proper for a man and a woman to do that (who aren’t married to one another). Too familiar…”

    His answer I’ve heard many times before “too familiar…” for unrelated Jewish men and women to hold hands, even for prayer. This of course does not mean a Jewish male can not anoint another, that is entirely different (although I have learned over the years not to allow just anyone to lay hands on me for prayer).

    Now for a Jew who follows Torah (and I come in contact with many) a man and a woman do not hold hands unless they are related such as husband and wife. Do you really think those women were going to uncover the body of a man they are not related to after 3 days of burial so they can anoint it? Even His own mother would not have done it with other unrelated women. It is one thing for Miriam Magdalene to pour alabaster on the feet of Messiah and use her hair to wipe it right in front of others but it’s quite another to go in a tomb when its turning dark and uncover the body of a man they believed dead for three days to anoint it. Maybe they just meant to pour the oil over His head and face in which case they would just unwrap the top of the shroud which was often the tallit or mantle that, a as a Jewish male, would have covered Him. Since His mantle or tallit was taken by the guards they most have used another one to bury Him. Still this is puzzling.

    As you said, His body, although hastily, was probably washed and anointed by the males just before burial. So the question is two fold, do the original texts really read this way or is this another translation error? If not then, What were the women really doing there? I guess this is one of those non- essential questions that we might just find out about when He returns with His angles after the great tribulation to gather us to Jerusalem.

    I am copying the burial practices used in Judaism today. Notice the mention of Gamaliel, the famous rabbi and contemporary of Yeshua:

    Preparation for Burial
    By Ariel Scheib (Jewish Virtual Library)

    Once a person passes away in Jewish tradition, much preparation goes into cleaning the body to prepare it for burial. Every step of the preparation for burial is done out of deep honor for the deceased. It is the living’s way of paying their last respect to the one who has recently departed.

    The community must first assemble a hevra kadisha (“holy society”) that is responsible for following the Jewish customs in preparing the body for burial. Once the hevra kadisha has been chosen, they must wash and purify the body in a ceremony known as Tahara. The body is placed on a long board, with the feet facing the door, and the body washed with warm water. This is to symbolize the releasing of impurity from the body. At the same time, the hevra kadisha recites Biblical verses. The final act of purification comes when the body is held in an upright position, and warm water is poured over the entire body. It is common for members of a hevra kadisha to fast on the seventh of Adar (day of Moses’ death) to be cleansed of any disrespect they might have shown the deceased. Jewish tradition does not permit embalming or the use of cosmetics on the deceased.

    Once this act has been completed, the body of the deceased is dried and wrapped in a simple shroud (tachrichim). This shroud was introduced by Rabbi Gamaliel, to symbolize that every Jew is equal before God. The shroud is made from simple white cotton to symbolize purity. A man’s shroud can also consist of his tallit. All adornments from the tallit are taken, and one of the four fringes (tzitzit) of the tallit is cut, indicating the deceased is no longer required to perform rituals.

    After death, the deceased body is never left unattended. Doing so is considered sign of disrespect. Until the actual burial, someone (this person is called a shomer) must sit by the body, reciting Psalms.

    In Genesis it states, “for dust you are, and to dust you shall return” (3:19). In ancient times, Jews use to bury their dead without the use of a coffin (aron). This was to symbolize the returning to the Earth and dust. In Israel today, many people are still buried directly in the ground. However, in many western countries, local law requires a body to be buried in a coffin. Traditional and Orthodox Jews use a plain wooden coffin to again symbolize purity. The coffin tends to be made out of soft wood, which decomposes quickly, or holes are drilled into the bottom of the coffin, for the deceased body to make contact with the dirt. Before the coffin is closed, sacred books and dirt from Israel (for those deceased not being buried in Israel) are often placed beside the body. Dirt from Israel is also symbolic of the future resurrection of the Jews once the Messiah appears.


    You can read more at:

    On this other web site (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/february-6-2004/jewish-burial-practices/1794/) I found this commentary regarding the purification done to a dead Jew:

    “The purification is a cascade of 24 quarts of water that are poured by the entire team in a continuous flow. And it is analogous to a mikvah, which is a purification that women go through following their menstrual cycle.

    And it’s as if we were washing away all the suffering of their last periods of their lives, and it’s as if it is like a veil that you leave behind.”

    Regarding the shroud (assuming they still do it the way the same way):

    The shrouds are fashioned after the garments that the high priest wore in the temple on Yom Kippur, and they’re white, usually made of linen, hand-sewn with no knots so that they will disintegrate easily. They also have no hems to signify the impermanence, and no pockets, so that you take no worldly goods with you. And everybody, rich or poor, young or old, religious or nonreligious, are all buried in the same garments.
    And then the body finally is placed in the casket and wrapped in a large sheet, which creates almost a cocoonlike image. And there is a sense of protectiveness as the person enters the world to come.

    Notice the garment is intended to disintegrate and there is a second cocoon like garment so that the women if they were going there to anoint Him would have have to uncover as well. Now given the Jewish custom of Shiva (mourning for the dead for seven days. Could it be possible that the women really went there at the start of the first day of the week when it was getting dark just to pray unseen by the authorities? Could they have hoped He had indeed come to life?

  101. I ended the last post with some questions that I would like to pursue. Could it be possible that the women really went there at the start of the first day of the week when it was getting dark just to pray unseen by the authorities? Could they have hoped He had indeed come to life?
    This is what I found regarding ancient Jewish burial customs in http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/3842-burial .
    I really think this adds light to what the women were doing:

    Early Burials.

    The tomb, however, was not immediately closed over the dead. During the first three days it was customary for the relatives to visit the grave to see whether the dead had come to life again (Massek. Sem. viii.; see Perles, “Leichenfeierlichkeiten,” p. 10, and Brüll, “Jahrb.” i. 51).

    We know the High priests requested the stone be rolled at the entrance but perhaps the women had been secretly visiting under the cover of darkness and the only time mentioned is when HE did come alive after 3 days. After all didn’t He Himself resurrected Lazarus after four days? Could it be that the anointing oils were not meant to pour over His dead body but over His head if He came to life? Could this not have been then instead of an act of mourning an act of FAITH on their part? Surely that would prove Him to have been Moshiach, the anointed one!

  102. Adam you repeat the same old Pharisee condemnation that “Yeshua was breaking Shabbat” for eating a few grains of wheat as they walked through the field. I tell you that is not so and He knew it, they did not break Shabbat. Yeshua not once broke Torah. He was and is a Torah observant Jew.

    In reference to Acts 15, you are funny. In the first place the four rules given to pagans that wanted to come into the faith ALL had to do with PAGAN practices of the times, including having ritual sex. This was not just mere sex, this was a sexual practice during an orgy when a pagan temple prostitute had sex as if he/she was the god or goddess of said temple. Ditto for drinking blood, etc. So no, Yeshua did not partake in any such thing nor did He ever have sex, despite the often told false stories about Him and Miriam Magdalene…

    Regarding the orthodox Jewish tradition of fasting on the second and fourth days of the week, albeit probably healthy, it is rabbinical and like many things rabbinical fairly modern (this by the way includes the use of the kipa, the fixed calendar instead of the lunar one and a few others). This is not to say they are bad but that they were not in use back then. We don’t know how many other times Yeshua may have fasted as by the age of 30 He probably fasted several times since His Bar Mitzvah. Also His 40 days fast of course had nothing to do with lent, the pagan fasting and mourning for Tammuz that culminates with eating pig (revenge on a boar which supposedly killed Tammuz). Yeshua may have possibly even done a nazarite vow; when a Jew lets his hair grow and abstains from wine at the end of which cuts his hair and burns it at the altar along with some offerings. In some cases like Samson, they were nazarites for life. This is the vow Rabbi Shaul did in Acts 21:20. You could tell if a Jew was doing a nazarite vow or not because they normally only let their hair grow long during the duration of the vow. We know Yeshua did not have one during His ministry as He not only drank wine; turning water into wine was His first miracle. Nazarite is not to be confused with Nazarene, someone from Nazareth, two entirely different things.

    Regardless, Yeshua was very much a Torah observant Jew who had many good discussions about the CORRECT way of observing Torah with other teachers of the law. The recommendation for new Gentile believers was that after abstaining from paganism, then every Sabbath they would learn Torah at the synagogue, Acts 15:21. You can ‘thank Rome for the changes’, as they were the ones that imposed them…

    Yeshua and His disciples followed Torah all their lives in the same manner that we will continue doing after His return. Sabbath observance: Mat 24:20; Mar 1:21, 6:2; Luke 4:16, 4:31, 6:6, 13:10; Acts13:14, 13:42, 13:44, 15:21, and 16:13, 17:2, 18:4. Feast observance: Mat 26:17; John 7:2, 8, 10, 37; 1Cor 5:8, 16:8; Acts 2:1-3 (Shavuot), Acts 20:6, 16; future Sabbath and feast observance: Isa 66, Zac 14. In Heb 8:10-12, Jeremiah 31:31-34 it clearly says that His eternal holly Torah will be written in the hearts of Israel and Judah. Moreover, after His return with his angels He will separate those who know Him and keep His/the Father’s commandments (Torah) from those who don’t and instead follow man’s way (often following Roma and its dogma), Mat 15:31-46. For more clarification on this subject I recommend you read the book Identity Theft by Ron Cantor. It’s an easy read and you can get it from Amazon.com for a little over $10, it’s well worth it.

    • Shosana
      You say “We don’t know how many other times Yeshua may have fasted ”
      NT says Jesus and his disciples didn´t fast. Jesus even talked away it bay saying we don´t fast when the groom is here. bla bla bla
      NT says people used to fast 2 days a week at that time and the didn´t so they was not Talmud observant and Talmud and Torah belongs to each other. Period
      Jews even clean their hand before eating. Jesus and his disciples didn´t. They broke Talmud.

      I want to end this by telling you that Yeshua is livng on earh now and he is a Christian and don´t follow Talmud or Torah. He says his father has taken our sins upon him so we that are baptized in his Church are free from Moses laws. And the third temple will be a Church and not a Synagogue.

      Shalom alechem!
      Mea Culpa

  103. Adam when I commented that we dont know how many times did Yeshua fasted, I meant in the PAST before He started His ministry, which is what we have recorded. He and His disciples probably both fasted and even did some nazarite vows as the one Rabbi Shaul is recorded doing in Acts 21:24 24 “Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.”

    I never said they were Talmud observant. They obviously did not follow the rules of the Pahrisees such as washing their hands to the elbows before meals while reciting lenghtly prayers… They followed Torah the right way.

    • Shoshana
      You can not follow Torah without following Talmud. An ex is God says trough Moses that you shall slaughter the animal as I have commanded you. There is no commandment in Torah about how to slaugter an animal. This is written in Talmud. So if the disiples followed Torah they must follow the Talmud which they didn´t.
      So my conslusion is that they were showing that it was a new way to belong to God. No Moses laws for us. God has taken our sins upon him on the cross since God was in Jesus on the cross. That makes us free from the law as many places in NT says. So I am eating lobster and Pork because i believe in the NT. Otherwise I would have been a law follower.

      • The health laws date back to the time of Noah at least. They were before Moses. Pork and lobster and other unclean animals are all scavengers. They eat the rubbish left behind by other animals.

        They are an abomination to eat them.

        Isa 66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

        The Talmud comes from Babylon. You didn’t need it to know how to slit an animal’s throat.

        • David
          You say “you did not need to know to slit an animals throat. Torah doesn´t say that we shall slit the throat. Talmud does. Torah only says you shall slaughter the animal as I have commanded you. And no were else in the Torah we get more info so we need to look at the Talmud if we are Jews but I am not a Jew. I am a Christian Hebrew and I have the right to eat Lobster etc. Lobster is my and my childrens favourite food.
          So once again. Kosher comes from Talmud not Torah. And to be a Jew you have to follow both of them otherwise you are breaking the law. You are saying that Jews don´t have to eat kosher?????

          • I don’t believe I am hearing this. Don’t people not read their Bibles anymore?

            Exd 29:16 And thou shalt slay the ram, and thou shalt take his blood, and sprinkle [it] round about upon the altar.

            I think they knew how to kill an animal long before the Tulmud was ever written.

            Lev 11:1 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them,
            Lev 11:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These [are] the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that [are] on the earth.
            Lev 11:3 Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, [and] cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat.
            Lev 11:4 Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: [as] the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:5 And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you.
            Lev 11:8 Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they [are] unclean to you.
            Lev 11:9 ¶ These shall ye eat of all that [are] in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
            Lev 11:10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which [is] in the waters, they [shall be] an abomination unto you:
            Lev 11:11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
            Lev 11:12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that [shall be] an abomination unto you.
            Lev 11:13 ¶ And these [are they which] ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they [are] an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
            Lev 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
            Lev 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
            Lev 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
            Lev 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
            Lev 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
            Lev 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.
            Lev 11:20 ¶ All fowls that creep, going upon [all] four, [shall be] an abomination unto you.
            Lev 11:21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon [all] four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
            Lev 11:22 [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.
            Lev 11:23 But all [other] flying creeping things, which have four feet, [shall be] an abomination unto you.
            Lev 11:24 ¶ And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:25 And whosoever beareth [ought] of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:26 [The carcases] of every beast which divideth the hoof, and [is] not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, [are] unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.
            Lev 11:27 And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on [all] four, those [are] unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:28 And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they [are] unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:29 ¶ These also [shall be] unclean unto you among the creeping things that creep upon the earth; the weasel, and the mouse, and the tortoise after his kind,
            Lev 11:30 And the ferret, and the chameleon, and the lizard, and the snail, and the mole.
            Lev 11:31 These [are] unclean to you among all that creep: whosoever doth touch them, when they be dead, shall be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:32 And upon whatsoever [any] of them, when they are dead, doth fall, it shall be unclean; whether [it be] any vessel of wood, or raiment, or skin, or sack, whatsoever vessel [it be], wherein [any] work is done, it must be put into water, and it shall be unclean until the even; so it shall be cleansed.
            Lev 11:33 And every earthen vessel, whereinto [any] of them falleth, whatsoever [is] in it shall be unclean; and ye shall break it.
            Lev 11:34 Of all meat which may be eaten, [that] on which [such] water cometh shall be unclean: and all drink that may be drunk in every [such] vessel shall be unclean.
            Lev 11:35 And every [thing] whereupon [any part] of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; [whether it be] oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: [for] they [are] unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:36 Nevertheless a fountain or pit, [wherein there is] plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.
            Lev 11:37 And if [any part] of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it [shall be] clean.
            Lev 11:38 But if [any] water be put upon the seed, and [any part] of their carcase fall thereon, it [shall be] unclean unto you.
            Lev 11:39 ¶ And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:40 And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.
            Lev 11:41 ¶ And every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth [shall be] an abomination; it shall not be eaten.
            Lev 11:42 Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon [all] four, or whatsoever hath more feet among all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they [are] an abomination.
            Lev 11:43 Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby.
            Lev 11:44 For I [am] the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I [am] holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
            Lev 11:45 For I [am] the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I [am] holy.
            Lev 11:46 ¶ This [is] the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
            Lev 11:47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

  104. Since the death and resurrection of Jesus, ALL foods have been declared “Clean” by God the Father, as long as we take them in thankfulness!

    • Glenn
      You are right but David and Shoshana seems to not understand this. They try to be Jewish and Christians.

      • God is not mocked. If you abuse your body by eating the wrong foods God will hold you accountable for it. He may forgive you but you will still suffer the consequences.

        God didn’t make all meats clean. You totally misunderstand Peter’s vision of the unclean sheet of animals. It had nothing to do with unclean animals now made clean. It was all to do with Peter’s attitude to the Gentiles that needed to be reached after Jesus went to heaven. The Gentiles were considered common and unclean by the Jews. A Jew was not to go to a Gentile. Peter needed to be taught that the Gentiles were now clean. Three Gentiles sought Peter in Acts 10, that is why the vision was repeated three times. Even after the vision God has to tell Peter to go with the men.

    • Were you by any chance reading the NIV? Sorry but you are wrong. God does not change(Hebrews 13:8). What was unclean to Noah is still unclean to us today. Jesus did not die to cleanse a pig.

  105. Oh vey Adam. Really that is like saying you cant follow the Letters of the Apostles ( NT) without following the Cathecism.

  106. Adam you are terribly mistaken. Lev 11 tells us about clean and unclean animals. When Noah was told to let the animals in the arc only two of each of the unclean ones went in but SEVEN of each of the clean ones. Why was that? Additionally as David already pointed out, AFTER Yeshua returns during the millennium those who were found eating pork will be considered the same as those who eat a rat and will not enter paradise, Isa 66:17.

    The Almighty is the one who makes the distinction, not you or I or any church or religion. He and He alone sets the rules, not man. I do not eat kosher because Abraham served meat and milk but I do abstain from eating unclean animals. I follow Torah in the same manner that Yeshua did but I don’t follow Talmud. I don’t even follow the Hillel calendar to reckon the days and feasts but follow Torah’s reckoning for the moedim or appointment times of the Almighty. Obviously not all followed Torah the same as Yeshua did thus some of the Pharisees wanted to impose their religious views on Yeshua because to them their interpretation was right.
    That is how you wind up with thousands of religions, all wanting to do it THEIR way instead of YAH’S way. That is called feeding from the tree of good and evil. Always man trying to decide instead of accepting Him.
    There is but ONE WAY, one set of rules, one Messiah, one Creator. The rest is man-made rubbish. Either we do it His Way or the Adversary’s who seeks to destroy us by having us feed from the tree of good and evil. That is why the early disciples were called the followers of The Way.

  107. So where is the scripture that says all foods were declared ‘clean’ in defiance of Yah’s way?

  108. Right you are David. Not only did they know how to slaughter an animal, Abel knew what to bring up for a sacrifice. Enoch knew, so did Abraham,

    Genesis 26:5

    5 because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions.”

    At the end of the day obedience is better than sacrifice. Those who insist on doing it their way instead of The Way will not be known of either Yeshua or the Father, Mat 7:21-23.

  109. Amein David: “God does not change(Hebrews 13:8). What was unclean to Noah is still unclean to us today. Jesus did not die to cleanse a pig.”

  110. This will be my last response to this thread as obviously I am starting to feel like a cat chasing it’s tale!…To those Christians who are still enslaved by The Written Law, I say this. Please read Mark 7:14, Acts 10:9 and Romans 14.20..
    Besides it’s function for the maintenance of physical life, food had other functions as well. It was a means of bonding social relationships and of establishing covenants.(Gen 31:54, Exod 24:11). Food was also used as tributes or presents, and for making loans and wages for services rendered.
    Food was also used for religious purposes, such as the bringing of offerings, and in sacred communal meals.
    But life consists of more than food!
    All foods that are offered to me, I eat with thankfulness and gladness, providing of course that I actually enjoy eating them!
    Foods I do not personally like are Liver, Brains, Kidney, Tripe, Lambs Fry and any exotic foods of the Orient, like Snake, Snails, Dog etc etc!
    I am free in Christ to enjoy what He has released me to now eat!

  111. Glenn,
    Do not feel alone here.
    What many do not see is that for Noah’s covenant, The Lord Said “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.” (Gen 9:3) (That includes Pork), provided you don’t eat the blood. Yes there were clean and unclean animals, but this pertained to sacrifices. This Changed under the Mosaic covenant, and then again under the new covenant.

    I do not condemn people who choose to abide by the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic covenant, But I also find that many who do, do so to make themselves look better than others. That in itself should make them look inward to see where the heart is.

    God bless, enjoy the BLT

    • Glenn,
      Many people need to raise themselves above others and trust in their own rigtheousness. Pride won’t allow them to see that NOTHING will make them acceptable to God except faith and trust in His grace andpowerto save. They don’tunderstand the types and shadows of the Old Covenant.
      The Altar and the Sacrificial Lamb were types and shadows of the Cross and the sacrifice of Jesus.
      The laws of unclean foods were types of our keeping ourselves separate from uncleanliness. The type symbolized separation from Gentiles. Obviously if Jesus calls Gentiles clean now, the type no longer applies. It is fulfilled in Christ.

      We no longer follow the type and shadow of Christ by offering lambs on an altar, so why would we continue to follow other obsolete laws that Jesus fulfilled?

  112. Thanks Dru and Toddott, I just hope that it is accepted and received by those who still live under the old Covenant rules, with the eyes of their hearts

  113. Mark is not about eating but about engaging in long prayers while washing the hands to the elbows in an outward show of piousness. They were more concerned with appearances ignoring the condition of their own hearts.
    Acts 10 clearly depits Simeon Peter thinking he was being asked to eat unclean foods, something he clearly did not do but then we read what he was really being asked to do; to sit at the table with a non Jew and fraternize with him. Peter, the same as the rest of Yeshua’s disciples continued being Torah observant Jews who kept Yah’s holly Sabbath and feasts and abstained from unclean foods.

    • Shoshana,
      Are you Jewish?

    • Hi Shoshana,

      Though the initial portion of Mark 7 consisted of a dispute regarding “takanot and ma’asim” and the washing of hands, from Mark 7:14, (where Yeshua speaks to the multitude specifically) to verse 16, what He says can not be misconstrued.
      And though what He said was said plainly, because it would more than suggest to be against the Mosaic Law, in verse 17 His disciples asked Yeshua again to explain what He meant. In His response He says;

      “Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, [it] cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, “PURGING” all meats? That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.” Mark 7:18-23;

      The Greek “καθαρίζω”, or the transliterated “katharizō”, was the word that was translated into the English “PURGING” above.
      It is defined as, “to make clean or purify”.

      “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”
      1 Timothy 4:1-5.

      There was an Old Covenant that has passed away, and a New Covenant that has begun and is in effect, still being fulfilled.
      The New Covenant deals with the heart of the individual rather than merely the letter of the law.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaMashiach Melech Kavod.

  114. Shoshanna I’m so glad you were there, so you can relate what they did on a day to day basis!…How much do you want for your Time Machine?

  115. When a Jew talks about food they mean food suitable for human consuption. The animals that Yah made to keep the planet clean are not suitable for us to eat, they are not food. When Noah had the animals in the arc the unclean ones went in two by two whereas the clean ones went in sets of seven.
    The same laws or teachings given before continue while there is an earth and heaven Mat 5:17-19.
    Yah is the same yesterday today and forever He hasn’t changed. The only thing that changed is the manner of delivery of Torah. Before it was external now it will be internal, Jeremiah 31:31-34.

    • Hi Shoshana,

      Regarding what you say in your post above, I would agree that God does not change, however that is a completely different thing than saying that God changes things.

      How if maintaining what you provided to be supportive to that of your view, would you then explain the below?

      “And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.” Genesis 9:1-3.

      This will be my last post in respects to this particular topic, for it has been ongoing here for years.

      Be Blessed in Yeshua HaNazarei Yemelekh HaYhudim.

  116. Pride does not play a part here, well maybe it does but not in the way you might think. It takes humbleness to admit that one has inherited falsehoods from ones ancestors, Jer19:16. The world has inherited falsehoods that dictate that all things seen as Jewish are to be discarded as dirty rags. Never mind Messiah is a Jew as were all His disciples which continued in Judaism after Yeshuas resurrection. The idea imposed by Rome was to deny the value and constancy of Yahs eternall teachings so they could interpose theirs and have control as the church they claim to be. The changes were all initiated by Rome who like the deities it adores would rather have us feed from the tree of good and evil than from the tree of life.

    • What we have inherited is from the apostles, not from Rome. Read as follows:

      6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

      12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

      16 “‘After this I will return,
      and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
      I will rebuild its ruins,
      and I will restore it,
      17 that the remnant[b] of mankind may seek the Lord,
      and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
      says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’

      19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
      Acts 15.

  117. There is only one new covenant mentioned in scripture, Jeremiah 31:31-34 cited in Heb 8:8-12. Guess what is supposed to be written in the heart?

    • But if the fruit of that Law is like that of the Pharisees, then it is not written on the heart, but rather the ego. Read Luke 18:9-14

  118. Glenn is called ‘STUDY to show yourself approved’.

  119. Messianic was brought into this walk by Yah

  120. I am down to two percent battery power. Again in Judaism unclean foods are not considered food. When a Torah observant Jew speaks of food he means food, not animal feed.
    Torah is as eternal as Messiah Yeshua Himself becase He is the living Torah. Shalom

    • Shoshana,
      Yes, Yeshua is the Living Torah. He is the embodiment of what the types and shadows of the Old Covenant actually meant and to which they pointed. They were a shadow of the good things that were to come.

  121. Jesus was Baptized not long before his 30th Birthday, which must have been either late September or early October, as He was born on either the first day or during The Feast of Tabernacles.
    By the time He returned from His 40 days and Nights in the Desert, He had turned 30!….Now depending on when one counts from the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, it would make it either 26 or 28 AD.That means Jesus was Crucified in either 30 or 32 AD?
    So if I had a Time Machine, just to make sure I would set it for September 26AD!:)

    • Jesus was about the age of 30 when he was baptised. Meaning he was already 30 at the time.

      • Greek word “hosei” can mean “nearly,” which means “almost.”

        • 1 Tim 4-1-5 makes me free to eat everything except blood.
          Shoshana and David is the false prophets in the end times that will teach that you shall not eat som kind of food or you shall not marry someone. There words are against the Holy spirit.

          Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maximum Culpa

    • a time machine would be great

  122. If you read Acts 15 as well as the rest of the bible in its correct Hebrew background you will see that here the apostles are trying to make sure that the new pagans are in effect converting and not just adding Yeshua to their pantheon of gods.ALL 4 steps given them have to do with the pagan idolatry that these pagans practiced, all of them. The thing was to leave idolatry and worship the one true Elohim. THEN every SATURDAY at the SYNAGOGUE they would hear (and hopefully learn) Moshe (Torah and the whole Hebrew scriptures which are the only ones they had and used).

    Acts 15:21

    21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

    These Jews are having a discussion as to the reasons why the pagans in question should be allowed to participate and these was what they concluded. Basically if you say you believe in our Jewish Messiah then shows us that you have in effect left behind your pagan idolatry and are ready to join us at the synagogues every Sabbath so you can learn the truth and grow in it once saved.

    • Shoshana
      I think you wrote to me. I live in sweden and I choose to go to the ortodox Church and Catholic Church only since the synagogues and protestant churches has started to marry homos. I have nothing against homos but they shall not be allowed to marry in Gods house.

  123. Dru you write: “But if the fruit of that Law is like that of the Pharisees, then it is not written on the heart, but rather the ego. Read Luke 18:9-14”

    Of course the Pharisees did not displayed the fruit of Torah in the heart but the fruit of THEIR own law. That is the point. Torah is to be written in the heart of Israel and Judah; if it is external eventually man changes it, however, the way of the New Testament or Covenant it becomes part of the individual and not subject to private interpretations.

  124. Shalom alienated, you asked me regarding the injunction given Noah and his sons “Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.”

    Before the flood man was vegetarian, maybe some of that had to do with the influence of the fallen angels (Gen 6:11) in Yah’s creation, we don’t know. Still Noah was well aware of clean and unclean animals as only two of each of the unclean ones went in and seven of each of the clean ones. They used clean ones as sacrifice to Yah, like Abel did using lambs. Noah obviously knew the difference. Just cause this happened before Moses it does not mean they were ignorant of Yah’s ways, they knew. Remember Adam lived a long time and must have taught his children what he learned from Yeshua’s mouth as He walked with Adam in the garden (yes, I do believe it was Yeshua all along, but that is a separate theme). They knew the difference and thus it goes back to calling ‘food’ only what is food, food meant for people. Pigs and lobsters are not considered food.

  125. Good comment toddott regarding the reckoning of the start of the day from sunset: “As humans, just as we are conceived in the darkness of the womb, and are then born into the light, so we first in spiritual darkness and then brought into the Light through our spiritual birth.”

  126. Adam before accusing of being ‘false prophets’ people that you don’t know and disagree with you read carefully the scriptures written by Jews within a Hebrew mindset and not a Greco-Roman one:

    1 Tim 4:3 … “and require abstinence from foods which God created to be eaten with thanksgiving by those who have come to trust and to know the truth.”

    Stop right there… “foods which God created to be eaten”… that is just it! Pigs and lobsters WERE NOT created to be eaten! They were never meant to be food because they are not food, they are trash eaters meant to keep the planet clean. Would you eat the contents of your vacuum cleaner? These animals are vacuum cleaners, the same as buzzards! They are not considered food, their function is to clean up, that is it.

    For further verification check out Isa 66 and what it has to say about eating pig and observing Yah’s Sabbath in the future…

    • Shoshana
      Isa 66 is a message for Jews and not for Christians. In future we will have poverty so people will eat what they find and Christians are free to eat what we want but Jews must follow the law. I don´t question Isa 66 all I´m saying is this is a message for Jews. Are you a messianic Jew????

      • All true Christians are spiritual Jews. Gal. 3:29.

        Jesus said in John 14:15 “If ye love me, keep my commandments.”

        Jesus is the embodiment of the law. He fulfilled the ceremonial laws. This is why we no longer need to sacrifice animals for our sins. Jesus is our perfect sacrifice. Everything that happened in the Sanctuary on Earth was Jesus Christ. The Altar of Burnt Sacrifice – Jesus dying on the cross. The Laver – Baptism. The 7 branched lampstand – The light of the Word. Table of Shewbread – Word of God. Altar of Incense – Prayers to God mixed with Jesus’. The Ark of The Covenant – God’s throne and his law, the ten commandments.

  127. Hi Shoshana,

    I know that I said that I wasn’t going to participate within this discussion above, simply because it is one that gets addressed over and over…. and over again, but I would just like to state the below for your consideration out of a brother to sister love, (and maybe because I also love your name). 🙂
    So if you would, lets actually take look at a couple of verses here, (that you have also acknowledged with you interpretation and quoted above), within the context of their original Greek.

    Now I would hope that you would first agree that 1 Timothy 4:1 & 2., consist of Paul expressing that he has been informed by the Holy Spirit that in end times, that their will be some that depart from the faith. That (perhaps unwillingly or being unawares), they will listen to and believe, seducing spirits and the doctrine of devils.
    Where then those that have believed these doctrines will then “be speaking lies of hypocrisy” and their conscience shall burn because of it.

    Now I am certainly not placing you within the above category at all, but if you would agree with that interpretation, then we would both be under the same understanding here in that; the above consists of the “negative in regards to context” composed of those that will depart from the faith, (that being of the New Covenant of Spirit), to the being seduced and believing the teachings of devils, (which consists of hypocrisy, and anything that would attempt to minimalize the Covenant of Spirit).

    So Paul now elaborates as to what would be some of those “negatives” that will be taught.

    1 Timothy 4:3.

    Within the King James it is rendered as;
    “Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

    The English “forbidding” was derived from the transliterated “kōlyō”, where it is defined as meaning, “(1) to hinder, prevent, forbid. (2) to withhold a thing from anyone. (3) to deny or refuse one a thing.”

    “To marry” was derived from the transliterated “gameō”, which is primarily defined as to simply, “lead into marriage and to take a wife”.

    The English, “and commanding to abstain from” was derived from “apechomai”, means to “hold ones self off, or to refrain or abstain”.

    “Meats” was from “brōma”, defined as “that which is eaten or food”.

    The “which God hath “created”, or “ktizō”, “to make habitable, to form or shape”.

    The be “received” from “metalēmpsis”, meaning “a taking or participation”

    With “thanksgiving” or “eucharistia”, “thankfulness and the giving of thanks”.

    The “of them which believe” from “pistos”, which its definitions are more extensive, so I will provide you a link for them here to read.

    The English “know” from “epiginōskō” to “know accurately, thoroughly, to become thoroughly acquainted with, to perceive”

    And “truth” from “alētheia” which is also quite extensive, but for this particular purpose and context can be simply be defined as “truth”.

    So, lets take a moment to go over the above.

    Paul says that there will be those that will depart from (the Covenant of Spirit) and become seduced by false doctrine. In verse 3 Paul expresses, (what he has been told by the Holy Spirit), as to what some of these doctrines will consist of. Therefore this verse would consist of what is, and will be “false doctrine”.
    Not to be understood as the verse itself is false, but that the content of what will be spoken by some, is false.

    Now …. if we look at your interpretation regarding this verse, where you say in one post, “Again in Judaism unclean foods are not considered food. When a Torah observant Jew speaks of food he means food, not animal feed.”, and then in another, “They knew the difference and thus it goes back to calling ‘food’ only what is food, food meant for people. Pigs and lobsters are not considered food.”, then don’t you see by those statements, that there is a distinct conflict in regards to the negative context in regards to these verses?

    1 Timothy 4:3. again;
    “Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to “abstain from meats”, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.”

    This again is expressing some of the “false doctrine” and if the “abstain from meats” consisted of only what the Jews considered to be “clean” and that of “food” as you are implying, then it simply doesn’t make any sense? Because if that was the case, then what Paul is saying then, “Is to abstain from Jewish food”.
    Therefore the context must mean instead then, that Paul is speaking of all “food” be it either Jewish or Gentile food. That what you eat has nothing to do with the “Covenant of Spirit” or that of your heart within the New Covenant.

    I hope that all of the above isn’t just confusing. Sometimes it is difficult to express and articulate clearly what it is that you are trying to say.
    Please try to mull it all over though.

    Be Blessed my sister in Yeshua HaMashiach our Most Holy Savior.

    • Paul is talking about meats that were offered to idols before being sold in the markets.

      Some believed it was better to not eat meat that had been offered to Dagon or Diana or some other pagan god. And that is good. What wasn’t good was telling other believers you better not eat that meat because it has been offered to a pagan god.

      There are very good health reasons why you shouldn’t be eating unclean animals such as pig. Pig meat is infested with worms, is high in nitrates, very high in fat and salt.

      Isa 66 tells us it is still an abomination to eat swine and mouse meats.

      The animal kingdom is diseased. If you want heart disease, cancers and other ailments keep on eating it. Read “International Meat Crisis”. Learn where mad cows disease and CAVD came from.

      I would rather get my nutrition first hand.

      • David, Shoshana
        That is a whole different argument. If You want to abide by Mosaic food restrictions, for heath reasons, by all means do. But this makes you no less a sinner than those who do not abide by these regulations. “For ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God”.

        Does this give you a moral right to condemn those who do not abide by these restrictions is the question we are trying to answer. I say, no. Especially, if in your condemnation you place a stumbling block that hinders that person from coming to Know Jesus. Forced adherence to a legal code, which is done by persuasion and or coercion is not genuine righteousness. But when one is led by the Spirit to obey, is when this is genuine from the heart conviction.

        As an example, Take the catholic priesthood and its marriage restrictions. These restrictions have led to forced compliance, which does not eliminate the fleshly desire to be with a woman. As this natural desire is frowned upon, the door is open to express this desire in deviant ways, pedophilia, homosexuality etc.

        It is the same thing with these food restrictions. When forced upon an individual their immediate inclination is to condemn those who do not abide by them. They open the door to pride, and self exaltation.

        That being said, are there some who have rightly transformed their natural desires for the opposite sex through the sanctification of the HS, yes, Paul being one. And are there those who abide by these dietary restrictions without condemnation of those who do not? Yes.

        What you need to understand, though, is that this is not “Godliness” as described under the new Covenant. I know the following have been posted here, but this is the entire passage.

        But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, 7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

        “Having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power”. If the fruit of your piety is arrogance, abusiveness, conceit, pride etc, then it is not godliness. If you are looking down on a person, you cannot love them as Christ loved us, “who while we were yet sinners, died for us”

        I use the example of abortion to describe this distinction, because it is such a hot button to bring up and push. Abortion is an abomination, and do not get me wrong, I am not saying it is right. A Teenager, commits a sin, and gets pregnant. Because of the condemnation they will face, and shame, they will instead abort that child. Who is it that has caused this shame and condemnation that leads to this abortion? Yes the teenager is guilty, But Is it not those who have placed themselves upon a pedestal, who have the appearance of godliness? But on the contrary, to be like Christ is to eat with the tax collector, To show love to the prostitute, to Talk with the Samaritan, and to show grace to the gentile. Thus, I ask in response, How many an abortion is caused by this attitude coming from the church? We all have this blood on our hands.

        When we see sins and atrocities such as this being committed and even accepted in our culture it because the church has failed. Its love for the sinner has grown cold, and it only “loves” those who conform to its doctrines. When a child fails these precepts, they are cast out, where Satan will devour their soul, and in the process create greater perversions. But had the church reached out to that pregnant teen, in love, they might not have had that abortion, choosing to live with the consequences of their sinful action (fornication), and in turn may have been able to help and love the next person in that church who may have been thinking of making that same decision to avoid it.

        Do you get what I am saying here? Godliness comes from loving the sinner, not excommunicating them. The Good Shepherd goes out to find the lost sheep. He rejoices when the prodigal son returns home. Just as he showed mercy to the people of Ninevah who repented. Sitting here, and pointing to your own piety with regard to the dietary restrictions Only hinders our Lord from being able to rejoice at saving that which is Lost. Perfect your love first, and then the rest will fall into place. That is his new commandment (John 13:34-35, 15:12-17) He not only called sinners his servants, but his friend as well. WE deserve none of this, nor do we earn it, but he graciously gives, and we are to be stewards of that grace.

        God bless.

        • Amen!

        • The health laws are not part of the Mosaic covenant. They date back to at least the flood and probably creation.

          Noah was told to take 2 of every unclean animal, a male and a female and the clean animals by sevens.

          The clean animals are all the animals used in the sanctuary service. Sheep, goats, pigeons, doves, cows and bulls.

          Gen 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that [are] not clean by two, the male and his female.
          Gen 7:3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

          As far as I know Noah wasn’t Jewish. He had to have known what animal was clean and unclean. Adam knew. They knew what animal to sacrifice for sin. A lamb which has to be perfect.

          It wasn’t God’s original plan that man should eat meat anyway. God only allowed it after the flood because there was no food to eat.

          I believe God wants us to be healthy not putting anything in our body temples that will hurt the body.

          • Every moving thing 7431 that liveth 2416 shall be meat 402 for you; even as the green 3418 herb 6212 have I given 5414 you all things.

            Genesis 9:3
            What do you not understand about this verse?

            If the world were forced not to eat any “unclean” animal or food, we would have a famine of biblical proportions.

            This is the covenant that the gentiles are under (non Christian). Israel, the nation was “set apart” from this covenant.

            The Gospel was to be for ALL peoples, nations and languages.

            Many people have no choice but to eat “Unclean animals”. Lobster, in fact was forced upon servants because of its abundance in the new world. It was the food of prisoners and slaves in the early years of this country.

            Southeast Asian populations are so dense, that they have adapted their diets by need to eat all sorts of living things. Are they not worthy of the Gospel?

            In India they eat no meat. More than half the population is starving.

            Are you ready to condemn these people, and prevent them from becoming Christians?

            Because you have the luxury to choose what you eat, does that make you superior? Is a Christian in southeast Asia who has to eat unclean animals all the time not to be part of the Body of Christ?

            • When God commanded that man could eat meat it was only the clean animals. Unclean animals were only a pair on the ark. If they had eaten one well that animal would be extinct.

              You must compare Scripture with Scripture. You can’t make a doctrine from one verse/passage.

      • David
        I am tired of people talking about Isa 66. This is for JEWS only. Not for Christians. As a Christian I am free to eat everything except blood. If you don´t agree with me you do not believe in NT or you do not understand it. Try to understand it is different laws for Christians and Jews and will always be so.

        • Where does it say that is for the Jews only? Was Noah Jewish? Was Abraham, Isaac Jewish?

          Fact is if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise(Gal 3:29). Abraham’s seed is Israel in Jesus Christ.

          • The old testament is for jews. Nt is for Christians.

            • That is not Scriptural.

              Both covenants were made with the house of Israel. Jeremiah 31:31.

              • Are you serious David???
                Are you saying that scribes, scoolars and bishops etc are wrong when they teach that we can eat wathever we want?? You are speaking agains the Holy spirit since the true Church has access to it.

                • Isaiah 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony: If they speak not according to this word there is no light in them.”

                  So if a leader, pastor or bishop is telling you you can eat any meat they have no light in them. Same if someone says the law doesn’t matter anymore.

                  • so you are saying that there is no light in Paul? Paul says that we are free from the law in many places in NT one is Romans 7:1-6.Paul had holy spirit upon him so maybe holy spirit was talking through him that means our father was speaking through him. Maybe you are talking against our father. Nt tells us that thoose who are questioning the holy spirit will not have a trial in heaven when he/she dies and will be put in hell immediately. Think of what you say.

                    • Now you just twisting my words. Paul was a prophet, a preacher, a man of God.

                      It is you who twist Pauls words to your destruction. You don’t understand the New Testament. The whole Bible is meant for us not just the new. God doesn’t change. If he did there would have been no need for Christ to have died on the cross for our sins. The 10 commandments just like God are eternal. Sin is the breaking of the law. Where there is no law there can be no sin. No sin no need for a saviour. No saviour no need for a church. No church no need for a preacher.

                      How can I be put in hell when I die when my trial hasn’t happened yet? The belief that you go to heaven or hell when you die is a Greek concept not Biblical.

                      It is appointed unto man to die once and after this the judgment. The judgment doesn’t happen until the end of time. Nobody on earth is punished before he is found guilty. You make Cain worse than Hitler. Cain only murdered one person whilst Hitler killed millions yet you have cain burning an extra 5000 years? Where is the justice in that?

                      Everybody is punished according to what they did. Some suffer a little while longer than others. The devil will suffer the longest.

                      Again maybes you should read your Bible instead of listening to what men say it says.

                    • Paul still said we are free from the law which means Gods words has changed.

                    • David see bottom of page

                    • No, we are free from the condemnation of the law not the law itself.

                      You think it is okay to worship other gods, worship idols, blaspheme God, break the Sabbath, dishonour your parents, murder, adultery, steal, lie and covet?

                      The law is eternal. Like I said if God was able to change it Christ need not have died for us. The penalty for breaking the commandments is death. Jesus died to save us from that death if we accept his sacrifice.

                      Shall we sin that grace abounds? God forbid.

                      Rom 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
                      Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

                      Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
                      Rom 6:15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
                      Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
                      Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
                      Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
                      Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
                      Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
                      Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
                      Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
                      Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                      Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

                      Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

                      Has heaven and earth passed away yet? The law is still in place.

                    • David
                      We Christians are free from the law not jews. We will always have Jews so the law will always be on earth. But not for Christians. When the pope eats pig , do you say he is breaking his faith? The good thing with the Catholic Church is that it is centralized. catholics don’t need blogs like this to disuss because law and order comes out from the Vatican. From cardinals who have spent their whole life on the Bible. I m eating pork as long as the pope is doing it. A man called David on a blg on internet can not change my mind but the pope can. If you are Jewish you shall of course not eat pig or lobster but if you are baptized in Jesus Church then you are wrong. We have the 10 commandments, 7 sacraments, fasting, praying and all the laws in the NT. That is what we have to follow as a Christians. It is simple as that.

                    • David wrote: “… Sin is the breaking of the law. ”

                      Not quite so. Breaking the law may be a sin, but sin is not same as the breaking of the law (KJV mistranslates 1Jn 3:4)

                      David wrote: “Where there is no law there can be no sin.”

                      Not quite so. Depends on what you mean by ‘law’, and what you mean by ‘sin’.

                  • This is in reply to Oun Kwon.

                    Sin is the breaking of the law.

                    1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

                • Seriously Adama, we can eat anything we want? Like anything? I am from Southeast Asia and we aren’t really much aware about ‘kosher foods’. And pigs are eaten here like in celebration, etc. but we are becoming aware they are not good for health. We need some teaching though regarding ‘kosher foods’, which I believe they are very available here. We can plant fruits and vegetables and eat them here.

                  • P7
                    The true Church is the Ortodox Church that the disiples created. We in the Ortodox Churh is eating vegan food most of the days every year. the rest of the days is free so for healt reasons there is no problem to eat pig sometimes. If you eat it everyday, then you have problem.

            • O.T. vs. N.T. – quite a baloney it sounds 😉 May be a good argument coming from Antisemitism (incl. Catholic Church and Luther, who got insane when he was old.)

              • The only difference between the old and new covenants is where the law of God is placed. In the new the law of God is placed in the heart whilst in the old they were in stone placed in the ark in the sanctuary. The law is the same in both covenants. The fact that the law was in the ark in the old was why a new covenant was needed because the law on stone doesn’t change a persons heart. The law has to be placed in the heart.

  128. Hi Marianne, If time travel was indeed possible,we would not be able to converse with those in that particular era we traveled too!.We could see them, but they would not see us, and we could not change anything around us!
    We could only observe, and see things as they really were, but not participate with what was going on!
    For example. I could see who really murdered JFK, but I could not prevent his death!…Maybe too, once I returned to my own time, would I remember what I saw?…and I could not bring anything back with me either!:(
    Still the trip I’m sure would be exciting!:)

  129. Shalom alienated again, In reality 1Tim4:4 it’s not teaching against Yah’s word but rather it’s referring to Gnosticism, a man made doctrine that well could be label of demons. Gnostics had quite a bit of a foothold among early believers, They forbade marrying and abstaining from certain foods in order to starve the senses or flesh to lift the spiritual. Possibly the Roman church inherited the part about not marrying from Gnosticism…

    In verse 3 the Greek word for food is ‘broma’ (Strong’s 1033), which God created to be received in thanksgiving… Broma refers to food that has already been declared clean, even for ceremonial purposes. It does not refer to unclean food (thus not food).

    In verse 5 “food that has been sanctified”, means that it has been set apart for eating already as food (Lev 11). If there are animals that are sanctified then there must be animals that are unclean, otherwise they would all be the same. You can’t have clean if there is not unclean.

    Fables are the opposite from Yah’s word. Jewish and Roman fables and commandments from man are not the same as commandments from the Almighty. People often reject Yah’s commands to follow men’s instead, Mark 7:6.
    People do not want to hear the truth of Isaiah 66 but that is still Yah’s word for believers during the millennial kingdom of Yeshua. So how do we reconcile changing Yah’s food ordinances in the present with going back to the way it was originally written in Torah (Lev 11) as it says we will do in Isaiah 66? We can’t have it both ways.

    Please see this video applying hermeneutics to this subject of 1 Tim 4:


    Also check this web site for more details about 1 Timothy 4:

    “Did Paul nullify food laws here? Did Paul refer to the Scriptures as a doctrine of demons? What is the doctrine of demons spoken of here? Forbidding to marry? Abstaining from certain foods?”

    – See more at: http://www.messiahfellowshiponline.com/1-timothy-4/#sthash.fc9eXpni.dpuf

    May you be richly blessed

    • Shalom Shoshana,

      Well, I guess that we will have to peacefully agree to disagree then.

      However before I leave, allow for me to ask you this, “If it is vitally important to maintain the Mosaic or Jewish dietary system, then why would God the Father have the individual that would proclaim and usher in the arrival of His Son, eat “locusts”?”

      Be Blessed in Yeshua our Most Holy Everything.

  130. Dru I will speak for myself. You write: “Does this give you a moral right to condemn those who do not abide by these restrictions is the question we are trying to answer. I say, no. Especially, if in your condemnation you place a stumbling block that hinders that person from coming to Know Jesus. Forced adherence to a legal code, which is done by persuasion and or coercion is not genuine righteousness. But when one is led by the Spirit to obey, is when this is genuine from the heart conviction. ”

    You seem to believe this has something to do with morality or is a salvation issue in some way. It is not, nobody is trying to force following what I see as the Almighty’s ways on anyone. My understanding is people in this forum consider themselves believers. It is not meant as condemnation but rather as a discussion on what do the scriptures actually say versus man’s teachings on the subject. The scriptures speak for themselves if we allow them to do so within the Jewish framework in which they were written rather than try to impose our own private interpretations. The entire bible was written by Jews so trying to apply a Hellenistic approach to its understanding often leads to misinterpretations. All I am trying to do is question those interpretations and their validity, is not meant as offense.

  131. Dru I already pointed out that when Gen 9 was written only clean animals were meant using your own question, what part of it you do not understand? Yah sanctified only clean animals, not unclean ones, During the millennium as per Isa 66, we we will abstain from eating unclean foods like pigs.

    If we are to abstain from unclean food then and Yeshua and His apostles abstained from them before, why aren’t we doing it now? Answer: Rome, Rome instituted changes in the church they created for the sole purpose of gaining political advantage and to this day Rome’s man made doctrines have found their way unto its many daughters… Their Christ is even far from the real Jewish Torah observant Messiah…

    Again this is not a salvation issue but… once saved you want to learn to follow to the best of your ability. We are to follow and obey out of love, not out of condemnation, there is a big difference.

    • Shoshana
      you have no right to say Jewish Messiah. He is the Hebrews messiah but he will not be Jewish in future.

      • Yeah. I’m very wary of the word ‘Jewish’, ‘Jews’, etc. which has current political-racial overtone. There was nothing ‘Jewish’ when Yeshua lived. Translating with these in the Gospels is anachronism, simple distortion of what they were meant and used there and then.

        It’s all Judaic – Judaic Festivals, Judaic customs, Judaic people, Judaic (Judean) authorities.

        Hebrew Messiah? That still sounds suspicious. The Messiah in the Scripture and in the God’s history is the very Anointed One by YHWH; He is YHWH’s anointed one to be a king, a priest, a prophet.

    • Shoshana, David
      I will use scripture to make my point.

      Isaiah 66, the part you ignore….

      Humble and Contrite in Spirit

      66 Thus says the Lord:
      “Heaven is my throne,
      and the earth is my footstool;
      what is the house that you would build for me,
      and what is the place of my rest?
      2 All these things my hand has made,
      and so all these things came to be,
      declares the Lord.
      But this is the one to whom I will look:
      he who is humble and contrite in spirit
      and trembles at my word.

      3 “He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man;
      he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog’s neck;
      he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig’s blood;
      he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
      These have chosen their own ways,
      and their soul delights in their abominations;
      4 I also will choose harsh treatment for them
      and bring their fears upon them,
      because when I called, no one answered,
      when I spoke, they did not listen;
      but they did what was evil in my eyes
      and chose that in which I did not delight.”

      Romans 10

      10 Brothers,[a] my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.[b]

      Malachi 3:18

      Then once more you shall see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him.

      Acts 15

      5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

      revelation 2:9, 3:9

      9 “‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich) and the slander[a] of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

      9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

      Now last time I checked, The gnostics did not worship in synogogues, neither did the Pharisees claim to be Gnostics. In fact the Gnostics were not a force influencing the church until the late second / early third century Ad.

      The Hebrew perspective is flawed in understanding the righteousness of God. I have seen many a believer stray because they do not understand this. The Law does not lead to righteousness, only the “end of the Law” can who is Jesus Christ.

      I ask again, is a believer in southeast asia who can only eat unclean animals, not part of the body of Christ? Is this God’s love perfected in us, or is it just people trying to establish their own righteousness?

      Answer these questions, and then we can move on….obviously you have avoided them thus far.

      For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:10)

      A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13 34-35)

      12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. (John 15:12-13)

      3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[c] his own glory and excellence,[d] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[f] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[g] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
      (2 Peter1:3-11)

      God bless

  132. Bravo Shoshana!!! 🙂

  133. David,
    “How can I be put in hell when I die when my trial hasn’t happened yet? The belief that you go to heaven or hell when you die is a Greek concept not Biblical.”

    “You make Cain worse than Hitler. Cain only murdered one person whilst Hitler killed millions yet you have cain burning an extra 5000 years? Where is the justice in that?”

    “Everybody is punished according to what they did. Some suffer a little while longer than others. The devil will suffer the longest.”

    It is you who have been listening to false teachers. Maybe you should read the Bible, as these are all unbiblical points you made. Hell is mentioned 64 times in the Bible. Yes the word “Sheol” is used, and yes it is translated as the grave, but it is also a word that has a multiplicity of meanings, one of them being the eternal punishment for sin.

    All sin is grievous in God’s eyes. Equally so. A liar is no better than a murderer. In fact we are born to sin through the sin of Adam, so we are “condemned already”. God’s Justice demands that we all are punished.

    “18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”” (John 3:18-21)

    And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.[b] 4 But[c] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:1-10)

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)

    I am sure you will be complaining “Where is the justice in that”

    • Sheol is the grave or graveyard. The translators of the KJV all suffered from doctrinal bias. The belief of an instant hell the moment you die was a popular belief invented by the devil to discredit God as a monster a tyrant.

      The Bible teaches that when you die you fall into a non dreaming sleep.

      Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
      Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.
      Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

      The dead know how much? Nothing,

      Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where [is] he?
      Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
      Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

      The word grave here is Sheol. Why didn’t the translators translate it as hell like in other places? Can’t have a righteous man begging God to be sent to hell, he must have meant the grave. Doctrinal bias.

      Psa 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

      Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

      Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

      Jhn 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
      Jhn 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
      Jhn 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
      Jhn 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

      Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
      Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

      Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
      Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

      The dead are asleep in their graves until the resurrection. Even David is still dead and buried and is still not in heaven.

      Sheol appears in the Old Testament 65 times not 64. 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave and 3 times as pit. Here are all the verses.

      Gen 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted ; and he said , For I will go down into the grave7585 unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.
      Gen 42:38 And he said , My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead , and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which ye go , then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave7585.
      Gen 44:29 And if ye take this also from me, and mischief befall him , ye shall bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the grave7585.
      Gen 44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad [is] not [with us], that he will die : and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave7585.
      Num 16:30 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up , with all that [appertain] unto them, and they go down quick into the pit7585; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD.
      Num 16:33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit7585, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.
      Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell7585, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
      1Sa 2:6 The LORD killeth , and maketh alive : he bringeth down to the grave7585, and bringeth up .
      2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell7585 compassed me about ; the snares of death prevented me;
      1Ki 2:6 Do therefore according to thy wisdom, and let not his hoar head go down to the grave7585 in peace.
      1Ki 2:9 Now therefore hold him not guiltless : for thou [art] a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave7585 with blood.
      Job 7:9 [As] the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away : so he that goeth down to the grave7585 shall come up no [more].
      Job 11:8 [It is] as high as heaven; what canst thou do ? deeper than hell7585; what canst thou know ?
      Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave7585, that thou wouldest keep me secret , until thy wrath be past , that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
      Job 17:13 If I wait , the grave7585 [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
      Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit7585, when [our] rest together [is] in the dust.
      Job 21:13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave7585.
      Job 24:19 Drought and heat consume the snow waters: [so doth] the grave7585 [those which] have sinned .
      Job 26:6 Hell7585 [is] naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
      Psa 6:5 For in death [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave7585 who shall give thee thanks ?
      Psa 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell7585, [and] all the nations that forget God.
      Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell7585; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
      Psa 18:5 The sorrows of hell7585 compassed me about : the snares of death prevented me.
      Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave7585: thou hast kept me alive , that I should not go down to the pit.
      Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed , O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed , [and] let them be silent in the grave7585.
      Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled , and your agreement with hell7585 shall not stand ; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through , then ye shall be trodden down by it.
      Isa 38:10 I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of the grave7585: I am deprived of the residue of my years.
      Isa 38:18 For the grave7585 cannot praise thee, death can [not] celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
      Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase [thyself even] unto hell7585.
      Eze 31:15 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave7585 I caused a mourning : I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed : and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
      Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell7585 with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
      Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell7585 with him unto [them that be] slain with the sword; and [they that were] his arm, [that] dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
      Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell7585 with them that help him: they are gone down , they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
      Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty [that are] fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell7585 with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though [they were] the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
      Hsa 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave7585; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave7585, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
      Amo 9:2 Though they dig into hell7585, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down :
      Jon 2:2 And said , I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell7585 cried I, [and] thou heardest my voice.
      Hab 2:5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, [he is] a proud man, neither keepeth at home , who enlargeth his desire as hell7585, and [is] as death, and cannot be satisfied , but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
      Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave7585; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave7585 from their dwelling.
      Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave7585: for he shall receive me. Selah.
      Psa 55:15 Let death seize upon them, [and] let them go down quick into hell7585: for wickedness [is] in their dwellings, [and] among them.
      Psa 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell7585.
      Psa 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave7585.
      Psa 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth , and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave7585? Selah.
      Psa 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell7585 gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
      Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou [art] there: if I make my bed in hell7585, behold, thou [art there].
      Psa 141:7 Our bones are scattered at the grave’s7585 mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth [wood] upon the earth.
      Pro 1:12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave7585; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
      Pro 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell7585.
      Pro 7:27 Her house [is] the way to hell7585, going down to the chambers of death.
      Pro 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead [are] there; [and that] her guests [are] in the depths of hell7585.
      Pro 15:11 Hell7585 and destruction [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
      Pro 15:24 The way of life [is] above to the wise , that he may depart from hell7585 beneath.
      Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell7585.
      Pro 27:20 Hell7585 and destruction are never full ; so the eyes of man are never satisfied .
      Pro 30:16 The grave7585; and the barren womb; the earth [that] is not filled with water; and the fire [that] saith not, [It is] enough.
      Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do , do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave7585, whither thou goest .
      Sgs 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love [is] strong as death; jealousy [is] cruel as the grave7585: the coals thereof [are] coals of fire, [which hath a] most vehement flame.
      Isa 5:14 Therefore hell7585 hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
      Isa 14:9 Hell7585 from beneath is moved for thee to meet [thee] at thy coming : it stirreth up the dead for thee, [even] all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
      Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave7585, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
      Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell7585, to the sides of the pit.
      Isa 28:15 Because ye have said , We have made a covenant with death, and with hell7585 are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through , it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

      • David,
        Sorry on the math error. 65 it is, You need not list them all.

        So Let’s see, the dead are resurrected to life? And why, so God can put them back in their grave? “Poof”

        41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:41-46)

        Now there is no “longer and Longest” in eternal punishment….By definition. So that concept of yours above has gone “Kaput”.

        Non existence is not eternal punishment either. If you no longer are, then you are no longer punished. Another of those teachings goes “kerplunk”.

        Jesus said the dead are sleeping. They will come to life on the last day. They will not have a chance to repent, if they did not when they were alive. So technically, they are already in hell…Their soul is, Just their body will join them.

        So I suggest that you re-examine your Adventist teachings, because they are flawed in so many ways.

        God bless

        • There is a huge difference between punishment and punishing.
          The wicked are punished. They are not being punishing right through out the ceaseless ages of eternity.

          Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

          How will you be able to enjoy heaven knowing your mother is suffering in hell for all eternity? In the new earth there is no more suffering, no more pain. {sarcasm mode}Unless of course you are wicked.{/sarcasm mode}

          The dead are all in their graves awaiting the resurrection. either to everlasting life or everlasting damnation. The wicked are judged during the 1000 years. They are raised up at the end of the 1000 years.

          Rev 20:4 ¶ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
          Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
          Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
          Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

          The wicked don’t live again until the 1000 years are ended. Every wicked person that has ever lived will be resurrected at that time. Judgment is pronounced on them and then punishment is carried out on them. Fire comes down from heaven and devours them.

          Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

          The whole earth will become a lake of fire to purify the earth from sin. The fire does its work until there is nothing left to burn and then it goes out and Jesus recreates the heavens and the earth back to pre sin conditions only this time the righteous gets to see it happen. Jesus will say “Let there be light” and light will appear.

          The righteous will walk on the ashes of the wicked.

          Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

          Even the devil shall be no more.

          Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

          God is not a monster, a tyrant, a sadist. He is just like us when we see an animal suffering, we put it out of its misery. God is a God of love. It is the devil that lies and says God is a tyrant.

          • If that is how you want to explain it away, then so be it. But if the Law fails to distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, as I pointed out to Shoshana, then how is that you will know if you are being trampled on….I mean, you will be asleep (sarcasm)

            No God is not a tyrant. But he is God almighty, We are but dust and ashes. (Gen. 19:27) The sooner you understand this, the sooner you can appreciate his mercy and Love. We deserve only eternal torment and death. irregardless of how many laws we obey, or do not obey. He is the potter, we are the clay, he has every right to take a vessel and break it to pieces if it is his will. This is the Love that you need to be looking at. the fact that he is patient concerning us, not wishing that any should suffer. But as a Just God, he must punish those who reject him. Those who reject his free gift will be punished accordingly. If his gift is eternal then the punishment for rejecting that gift must also be eternal.

            Instead of standing on the bully pulpit and comparing oneself to others, and saying how much better we are than them, we should be on the ground in sackcloth and ashes and saying Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. (Luke 18:9ff).

            This should always be our response to Almighty God. It was the response of all those who were deemed righteous…Abram, Job, David, Josiah, the prophets, John the Baptist, etc.

            God bless.

  134. Hello Dru 🙂

  135. Alienated, there is or was a plant out there that had pods called ‘locusts’…
    The term “locust” (gr. akris) was applied to the pods of the carob tree, that somehow resemble the insect. By extension many other pod carrying trees have been called “locust tree”.

  136. Adam glad to see you at least see Isa 66 will be fulfilled…

    We are supposed to be one in Messiah Yeshua, Jew and Gentile. That is why Gentiles are supposed to be like Ruth and be grafted in… Christians do not make the rules any more than the Jews do, Papa makes them for ALL His children. What is good for the goose is good for the gander…

    And where do you get the notion that during the millennial kingdom we will be poor and have little food?

    • Shoshana
      We will have little food in the beginning of the millennial kingdom. to say it right during the doom which is the start of the new kingdom. I can start to refer to Jer 30 where it says men in Isreal will walk around with their hands on the stomach like highly pregnant women and have paleness faces. This is becaus poverty. When Jesus/Micheal rutern we will have a poverty that the world never had before according to Daniel 12. Jesus says when he returns he will fire up the ungodly and luke says that it will rain fire and brimstones from heaven when he returns and today almost everyone including myself is living a ungodly life ( I eat to much). The book of moses says when the earth is hit by brimstone nothing grown since the soil becomes salty. Is this enough or do you want more????

      • Shoshana
        It is funny you ask where in scriptures it says that we will have poverty when we discuss Isa 66 🙂 :). To add little more God will give people in Jerusalem trees that will give fruit wvery month in future. Without poverty this trees would not be necessary.

        • Shoshana
          I am high on colombian coffe right now so I feel I have to write more. Ezekiel 38 talks about an Earthquake in Isreal. If a country will be destroyed in a earthquake don´t you think it will be poor times there?
          If God will destroy his own country don´t you think he will destroy the rest of the world? I suggest you read the Bible where it talks about Gods wrath in the end times? The Funny life is soon over.

  137. Adam Papa decided that His son would be born a Jew from the tribe of King David. I assure you the decision was not mine at all. According to prophecy He will rule in King David’s throne. Sorry if antisemitism has made you think Yeshua’s identity would change to that of a Roman infused Hellenistic religion, it has not. He will return the same way He left, a Jew.

  138. Adam do yourself a favor and tear up the two pages on your bibles that read “Old Testament” and “New Testament”. These are false man made ADDITIONS! When Yeshua and His apostles walked this earth they only used one scripture, the Hebrew scriptures, what we call the Tanach. The letters of the apostles came later. According to these letters and to TAnach the New Testament or covenant is Jer 31:31-34, that is it.

    • I agree Shoshana. In 2 Timothy 3:15,it says:

      “and that you have learned from your childhood, the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through belief in Messiah Yahshua”

      If I understand this right, there was no NT written at that time. The Holy Scriptures referred in this letter is the OT.

  139. David,
    Yes, but Christians are believing Israel with believing Gentile grafted in. If you know anything about grafting, when you graft a branch into a tree, that branch retains its characteristics. For example, if I graft an Red Delicious apple branch into a Macintosh apple tree, the branch will produce Red Delicious apples. Gentiles who aregrafted into the Israel Olive Tree are not required to follow the ritual laws of separation in the Mosaic Law.

  140. Dru allow me to take one scripture at a time:

    Isaiah 66
    66 “Heaven is my throne,” says Adonai,
    “and the earth is my footstool.
    What kind of house could you build for me?
    What sort of place could you devise for my rest?
    2 Didn’t I myself make all these things?
    This is how they all came to be,”
    says Adonai.

    “The kind of person on whom I look with favor
    is one with a poor and humble spirit,
    who trembles at my word.

    (I would stop at this point to point out “tremble at His word”. Torah and the whole of the Tanach forms part of His word, do we really tremble at it or do we disdain it? Are we humble enough to tremble at His word or would you rather insist on telling Him how to do things? If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray… 2 Chro 7:14- and then it further reads on v 17… 17 As for you, if you will live in my presence, as did David your father, doing everything I have ordered you to do, and keeping my laws and rulings;)

    3 Those others might as well kill a person as an ox,
    as well break a dog’s neck as sacrifice a lamb,
    as well offer pig’s blood as offer a grain offering,
    as well bless an idol as burn incense.
    and enjoy their disgusting practices,
    4 so I will enjoy making fools of them,
    and bring on them the very things they fear.

    (Again, whose practices are disgusting Yahweh’s or man’s?)

    For when I called, no one answered;
    when I spoke, they did not hear.

    (Those who have chosen their own ways; Jews and Gentiles alike have transgressed the word of Yah!)

    Instead they did what was evil in my sight
    and chose what did not please me.”

    (All is the same under the sun; man makes his own rules and tries to beguile the Father into accepting them saying they did them in “Jesus” name)

    5 Hear the word of Adonai,
    you who tremble at his word:

    (Ah! Now He is talking to a different group of people, those who tremble at His word…)

    “Your brothers, who hate you and reject you
    because of my name, have said:
    ‘Let Adonai be glorified,
    so we can see your joy.’
    But they will be put to shame.”

    6 That uproar in the city,
    that sound from the temple,
    is the sound of Adonai repaying
    his foes what they deserve.

    (This is referring to Yeshua’s return with his army of angels, He will once more clean up house… but for good…)

    7 Before going into labor, she gave birth;
    before her pains came, she delivered a male child.
    8 Who ever heard of such a thing?
    Who has ever seen such things?
    Is a country born in one day?
    Is a nation brought forth all at once?
    For as soon as Tziyon went into labor,
    she brought forth her children.
    9 “Would I let the baby break through
    and not be born?” asks Adonai.
    “Would I, who cause the birth,
    shut the womb?” asks your God.

    (The re-birth of Israel as a nation, echoes of Ezekiel…)

    10 Rejoice with Yerushalayim!
    Be glad with her, all you who love her!
    Rejoice, rejoice with her,
    all of you who mourned for her;
    11 so that you nurse and are satisfied
    by her comforting breast,
    drinking deeply and delighting
    in the overflow of her glory.
    12 For Adonai says, “I will spread shalom
    over her like a river,
    and the wealth of nations
    like a flooding stream;
    you will nurse and be carried in her arm
    and cuddled in her lap.
    13 Like someone comforted by his mother,
    I will comfort you;
    in Yerushalayim
    you will be comforted.”

    (Where are we to be comforted? In Rome, in DC?)

    14 Your heart will rejoice at the sight,
    your bodies will flourish like newly sprouted grass.
    It will be known that the hand of Adonai
    is with his servants; but with his enemies, his fury.

    (This is still in the process…
    It hasn’t happened yet …)

    15 For — look! — Adonai will come in fire,
    and his chariots will be like the whirlwind,
    to render his anger furiously,
    his rebuke with blazing fire.

    16 For Adonai will judge all humanity
    with fire and with the sword,
    and those slain by Adonai will be many.

    (Yeshua’s return will be seen by the whole world and it will be scary for the children of disobedience, those who rebel against His word and say it has been done away will repent.)

    17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves
    in order to enter the gardens,
    then follow the one who was already there,
    eating pig meat, reptiles and mice,
    will all be destroyed together,” says Adonai.

    (Those who eat what, PIG? He will do what to them? I did not write this, this is what His word says and I believe it in humbleness because it takes humbleness to believe, especially to admit one’s ways are crooked…)

    18 “For I [know] their deeds and their thoughts.
    “[The time] is coming when I will gather together all nations and languages. They will come and see my glory,

    (That time isn’t here yet but it’s coming… so fill up those lamps!)

    19 and I will give them a sign. I will send some of their survivors to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, Lud (these are archers), Tuval, Greece and more distant coasts, where they have neither heard of my fame nor seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory in these nations; 20 and they will bring all your kinsmen out of all the nations as an offering to Adonai — on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, on camels — to my holy mountain Yerushalayim,” says Adonai, “just as the people of Isra’el themselves bring their offerings in clean vessels to the house of Adonai. 21 I will also take cohanim and L’vi’im from them,” says Adonai.

    (Oh, oh, He is talking about survivors from the nations. Could this be after Mat 24 takes place?)

    22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence,” says Adonai, “so will your descendants and your name continue.

    23 “Every month on Rosh-Hodesh
    and every week on Shabbat,

    (Every week on what day? The Roman imposed sun day or HIS holy SABBATH?)

    everyone living will come
    to worship in my presence,” says Adonai.

    (Does it say Jews only or everyone living?)

    24 “As they leave, they will look on the corpses
    of the people who rebelled against me.

    (What is rebellion is it not going against HIS word, His teachings? Still want to do it “my way”?)

    For their worm will never die,
    and their fire will never be quenched;
    but they will be abhorrent
    to all humanity.”

    [“Every month on Rosh-Hodesh
    and every week on Shabbat,
    everyone living will come
    to worship in my presence,” says Adonai.]

    • Shoshana,
      I appreciate your interpretation of Isaiah 66, but that is not what I asked, nor does it address the point I made.

      The point I made is that the Law of Moses does not reveal the righteousness of God….by design mind you.

      The Question which I have asked both you and David several times is, will a believer in southeast asia who is forced to eat unclean foods for survival, not going to be allowed into the Body of Christ?

      I would appreciate a response to these questions, because until you do, your responses are hollow and empty rhetoric.

      God bless

  141. David,

    Actually, the Law is not eternal, only the moral aspects of the Law. The moral law is based on God’s unchanging character.

    Now, tell me, if the priest can profane the Sabbath, can it be a moral, eternal law? If the Sabbath can be broken to circumcise a child, can the Sabbath be a moral, eternal law? God would never “suspend” a moral law in order to fulfill a ceremonial law.

    The Sabbath is not an eternal law. It is a ceremonial law. Before the creation of time and seasons, days and weeks, the Sabbath did not exist. It is not part of God’s eternal character to rest every seven days. In the new heavens and earth, there will be no day or night, no weeks, no seasons. Therefore, there will be no Sabbath.

    I’m sorry, let me correct myself. There will be a Sabbath. It will be the continuation of the eternal rest that God gives us now, which the temporart Mosaic Sabbath typed and shadowed and symbolized, but was fulfilled in Christ.

    The Law that we are to follow is now longer the Mosaic Law, but the Law of Christ, otherwise known as the Law of the Spirit. All the law and prophets are fullfilled in love. (If we love God we will, trust and believe and rest in His love. If we love others, we won’t murder then, lie to or about them, or break any of the other commands.) The Law of Christ is a BETTER law.

    • So the commandment we are to forget is the one that starts with the word “Remember” is it? Yeah that will make sense.

  142. David,

    “The Law of the Spirit of Life has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death (Mosaic Law).”   I don’ see where it says we are free from the “condemnation” of the law, do you.   The  problem with your thinking is that the (Mosaic) law ALWAYS condemns. That it its job and purpose.  That is why it is called the “law of condemnation” and the “law of sin and death.”   We need the (Mosaic) law to kill us so that Christ can raise us to life.  “The letter kills, the Spirit gives life.”

    “The (Mosaic) law is good if one uses it properly.”   The (Mosaic) law was a schoolmaster, or tutor, to lead us to Christ.  Beyond that it is weak and useless and can’t make us righteous or holy, nor can it change our hearts.   Those who have died with Christ (put to death by the (Mosaic) law have been freed from the (Mosaic).  We are dead to the (Mosaic) law, but alive to God, just as a woman whose husband has died is freed from all obligations to the previous marriage, so that now she is free to marry another.   We are no longer “married” to the (Mosaic) law and are now betrothed to another.

    The purpose of the (Mosaic) law, then, is to show us our sin, to lead us to Christ.   Then we are under a new law (because there is a new covenant and a new priesthood), the Law of Christ, also known as the Law of the Spirit, the Law of Love, the Law of Life, etc.

    The Law of Christ contains the moral laws of God, which are described and expounded on in the New Testament (Covenant).   

    The (Mosaic) law, therefore is still needed to lead people to repentance, but for those in Christ (those who have repented), it is obsolete and replaced.

    It’s very simple to understand.   There are two Covenants.  The Old Covenant, the “ministration of death” is passing away.  The New Covenant replaces it.   The old is made for natural, carnal people.  The new is made for a spiritual people.

    p.s.  The (Mosaic) law is not eternal.  Only the moral aspects that reveal God’s eternal nature are eternal.   The 4th commandment, for example, is not eternal.  It is not part of God’s nature to work six days and rest on the seventh.  

    Heaven and earth WILL pass away, which implies the (Mosaic) law will also.   It would make sense since the (Mosaic) law is made for the unrighteous and the lawbreaker.  Since there will be no unrighteous and no lawbreaker in the new heaven and earth, there will be no need for any law.  
    When “all be fulfilled,” the law will pass away.  Therefore, it is not eternal.   It is an incomplete, inadequate, temporary shadow of God’s nature.

    p.p.p.s.  Three days AND three nights means three days AND three nights, and it was FOUR days ago for Cornelius.

    • todd

      I think there is a difference between obeying the law while under grace, and being bound by it.

    • The schoolmaster law mentioned by Paul is the 10 commandment law. While apart from Christ in sin the law acts as a mirror showing our sinful condition. It is like having dirt on your face and you look in the mirror and you see the dirt on your face. You don’t use the mirror to wash off the dirt. The mirror’s only function is to show you got a problem. It is pointing you to the soap to wash off the dirt. Same with the 10 commandment law. It shows you got a problem but the law can not save you but it points you to the saviour Jesus Christ who can wash away those sins. Once your sins are washed away you are no longer under the law but under grace. You are only under the law if you have broken it. Being under grace doesn’t mean the law is gone.

      People totally misunderstand the law today and its purpose.

      • David
        I see you use electricity during sabbat. This is against the law. No fire (elec) is ok to use on sabat. As long as you follow the laws of old testament you must follow this too. For Christians it is enough that we rest one day. But you say it is important to follow moses laws for Chirstians too so why are you breaking the law?

        • You are confusing the laws written on paper with those written on stone. The laws written on paper were put in the side of the ark whilst the 10 commandment stones were placed inside the ark. The laws on paper were a witness against God’s people.

          Starting a fire on Sabbath is a sin. It is work that is forbidden on Sabbath. Keeping the fire going is not.

          We use electric during Sabbath hours. It will be there whether we use it or not. We prefer to keep warm in church. There is no work involved in starting an gas boiler on Sabbath.

          The laws written on Paper were nailed to the cross. We no longer killed animals for our sins. Jesus is our perfect sacrifice. Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of the ceremonial laws. Jesus is our Passover, our First Fruits. We don’t need to keep these ceremonial feasts and Sabbaths. Keeping those now useless feasts shows a rejection of Jesus Christ.

          The 7th day Sabbath points us back to Creation and Redemption. The weekly Sabbath is not a type of anything. Jesus created it before sin. Funny how the 2 institutions Jesus created are now under attack today in this world both in and outside the church. The ceremonial laws were added after sin. You think they were only invented at the time of Moses? Jesus taught them to Adam. Adam passed them down to Seth, Seth to his son down to the time of Moses. They were orally passed down father to son until the time of Moses when man’s capacity for mental strength started to decay to the point that people were starting to forget so Moses wrote it down on paper.

          • If you start elec. Then you start a fire. It is ok if the computer is running during the whole sabbat but you are not allowed to start the computer during sabbat. Ask a priest from the synagogue! Jesus didn’t gave adam the law. Jesus is adam. God gave adam/jesus the law. And I am giving it to you since you don’t seem to be baptized. Are you baptized?

        • Moshe did know anything about electricity. So, it may be law-exempt 😉

      • David,
        If you were a Christian living in Nazi Germany and your neighbor was Jewish, would you turn them over to the authorities if you were asked if you knew of any Jews in the neighborhood?

        If Yes, you would be guilty of partaking in their death indirectly.
        If no, you would be guilty of breaking one of the ten commandments.

        Would you take the steps to hide that Jewish person in your own home if it came to it? Which might then result in you having to steal more food to feed them, and perhaps even to kill an SS officer who is suspicious of your activities.

        Now what if the only food you could get was pork sausages. would you feed it to that Jewish person and eat it yourself?

        Using the Law of Moses, who is the more “righteous” person?

        The one who told the truth, or the one who lied. The one who did no murder directly, or the one who murdered to save another? The one who did not feed the Jew an unkosher meal, or the one who did?

        So what we have here is the Law condemning the one who acted righteously, out of Love for the oppressed. While lifting up the one who acted wickedly and out of self preservation.

        Am I saying good is evil, and evil good? Absolutely not. I am saying that acting in righteousness in this sinful world means that we are dead to the Law, and the condemnation thereof. Because the Law of Love overrides the law of condemnation. When there is no more sin, the Law of Love, and the Law of Moses are one in the same. Legalism, in a sinful world, makes love grow cold, and if you do not think this is important then you need to read the following passages…Luke 21:12-19 Matt 24:9-14.

        Will you be the one handing Christians over and betraying them, or will you be one of the ones being handed over to the councils, and synogogues to be persecuted?

        God bless

        • This happened in Germany once. A Christian was hiding a Jew and the Nazis came searching. When they came to her house they asked her if she was hiding any Jews. She quickly said a silent prayer and God gave her this answer, “You are welcome to search.” The Nazis said “No, that is okay.” and they went away.

          • Good response David
            Now explain to me where that response came from the knowledge of Good and evil? On the contrary, it came from faith in the living Word of God.

            In a situation where we have only the opportunity to react, what is in your heart will be exposed. If you have think about the Law, your action will lead to inaction (freezing), or fight, or flight. For the Christian, the reaction is love…the Law written on our hearts. For we are merely vessels filled with Love.

            Ask a person who has been in battle. Some soldiers freeze when the poop hits the fan, others run, others fight, and go nuts (think war crimes). Others understand that they are fighting for their brothers in arms, an act of brotherly love. When the fighting dies down so does their fight response.

            This can only happen if you put to death the old self. A soldier understands that they are dead already.

            2 Timothy 2:3-4

  143. David and all,

    Adding to this discourse with another perspective and some Scriptures to back up my reply.

    The Word (Scriptures) that Believers read and meditated upon at the time Paul wrote his letters was the “Old Testament”: The Law (teachings), commandments, psalms, books of wisdom and prophets.

    We are to be filled with the Spirit and wash ourselves with the Word (Scriptures).

    The Lord came to fulfill the Law. Nothing was abolished or removed but fulfilled. Go and read the freedom we have to eat and drink and deciding what day of the week to reverence as a day set aside unto the LORD. My understanding of fulfilled is posted in “Lost Ark? God Forbid!. The book of Hebrews chapters 9 until the end also helps me with this topic.

    Consider this –

    Psalm 119:16 applied before it was written, when Paul read and taught to the churches and it applies today when we read:

    “How can a young man cleanse his way? By taking heed according to Your word” (verse 9).

    “I will delight myself in your statutes; I will not forget Your word” (verse 16).

    “Open my eyes, that I may see wondrous things from your law” (verse 18).

    “You rebuke the proud – the cursed who stray from Your commandments” (verse 21)

    This psalm is filled with truth. Then, we read Paul’s words to an assembly of Believers.

    “Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord is…be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:17-21, NKJV).

    “…just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:25-27, NKJV).

    There is more but I’ve got’a go.

    Psalm 1

  144. Adam if you believe that the Bishops, etc have a direct line with Yah and authority to change His holy word let me tell you about a bridge in Brooklyn that I would like to sell you…

    • Brooklyn!! Ok, you are a Jew. Then I understand why you are following the old laws.I thought you are a Christian but followed Moses laws.

  145. Adam in response to your response to David regarding Rabbi Shaul (Paul), not once did he ever said no such thing, on the contrary Rabbi Shaul affirmed the law to be good and followed it himself by keeping Yah’s holy Sabbath and feasts and by even doing a nazarite vow. I have given you many scriptures proving this but you rather follow the traditions of men and listen to bishops, etc. who follow the teachings of Rome/Babylon.

    • Shoshana
      My cousin is Jesus and he is the one I am listening to and he has confirmed that Shalus/Shaul/Paulus/Paul said Christians are free from Moses laws. Read Romans 7:1-6. If you don´t understand that we are free from the law when you read this then there is no hope for you. But you are probably a Jewish woman. Are you a Jewish woman? Do you know a god dating site where I can find a Hebrew woman??? I am from Hebrew blood, from Juda tribe som I want my wife to be one too but it is so hard to find in sweden.

      Regarding Rome. Before Jesus was reborn again his father told himthat he can choose one city and the rest will be destroyed. Jesus choosed Rome so soon all cities in the world including New York, Jerusalem, Mecca, Median will be destroyed. If Romes teaching was false then he would not save the City.

  146. Adam claims “Paul still said we are free from the law which means Gods words has changed.”
    There isn’t a single scripture that says that. Furthermore, Rabbi Shaul and all the devils on this planet do not have any authority to change Yah’s word. His word is eternal and does not change.

    • Shoshana
      Gods word for Jews don´t change but God has a new covenant with the people on earth called Christianity. Christianity means that we believe that God took our sins upon him on the cross so Christians are free from Moses laws. Jes are full of sin mich makes them slaves under the law. So I agree that Gods words are eternal but he has different words for different people. If you believe that Jesus is gods son and the Messiah and is Baptized then you are free from the law. I would not dare to eat Tacos (Meat and milk) I would not dare to were clothes with several materials on me. I would not dare to eat lobster, shrimps, pig if I was not 100 % sure that I am free from the law. My parents are muslims so they don´t eat pork and lobster and shrimps but I am a Christian and that makes me free from the law. I have read the NT many times and I draw that conclusion and All the Christian Scribes, scoolars, bishops, cardinals, priests, diacons etc are saying the same thing. Your word is not bigger than thoose peoples. And not bigger than Jesus who is living on earth right now and he has teached me that I am free to eat almost whatever I want.

  147. Adam you say to David “When the pope eats pig , do you say he is breaking his faith? ”
    Actually on this point you are right, the pope does not break his ROMAN faith when he eats pig… he is very much a Roman follower of the faith made by Romans…

    • Shoshana
      Roman faith is based on NT that comes from John the Baptist, Jesus, the Disciples, the Apostles etc.

  148. Dru you ask something I believed I answered but here it goes again. You ask “The Question which I have asked both you and David several times is, will a believer in southeast asia who is forced to eat unclean foods for survival, not going to be allowed into the Body of Christ?”

    If you are FORCED to eat something against your beliefs then is upon the head of the one that forced you, not upon you, you were forced.

    • There is a difference between doing something in ignorance and doing it on purpose.

  149. Correct pinyowarrior7, “In 2 Timothy 3:15,it says:

    “and that you have learned from your childhood, the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through belief in Messiah Yahshua”

    If I understand this right, there was no NT written at that time. The Holy Scriptures referred in this letter is the OT.”

    They only used the Hebrew scriptures to teach and admonish. The Letters of the Apostles came later and were not put together as the “NT” till the Roman church did so in the fourth century.

  150. Adam it sounds to me that you are confusing the great tribulation with the millennial kingdom of Yeshua…

  151. Adam where does it say in scripture that the “true church” is the Orthodox Church? The disciples were all practicing Jews! They or anyone else has any authority to create a church. Yah made the church at the foot of Mount Sion over 3000 years ago and it is called Israel, the betrothed of Messiah. There is only one body, one teaching, one set of rules.

    • Israel is not the church Shoshana. Neither is the church Israel.

      Click on the following link: we know what you are proposing, and it reaks of what the apostles dealt with in the first century.


      Of course you are welcome to believe what you like, but it does not make you a servant of God. The intent of the Law was to lead to repentance, what it could not do was lead beyond that point. It could not nor cannot change the heart, and overcome the original sin of Adam. When we are saved, we put to death the old man, and are resurrected in Christ…Born again.

      3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[c] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You[d] must be born again.’ (John 3:1-7)

      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Peter 1:3-5)

      Then you go on to assume that the scripture referred to in 1 Timothy only refers to the OT. Well then explain this:

      since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; 24 for

      “All flesh is like grass
      and all its glory like the flower of grass.
      The grass withers,
      and the flower falls,
      25 but the word of the Lord remains forever.”

      And this word is the good news that was preached to you.” (1 Peter1: 23-25)

      The early church had the “Living Word” of God, not the ones printed on pages, or chiseled in stone. This is what your doctrines and assumptions are missing.

      Such concepts as Sabbath rest, and our resting place found in our death and rebirth will make no sense to you whatsoever, if you are acting on the “Knowledge of good and evil”. The tree of Life is the Love of God which we are merely vessels through which his love flows. He lives in us, and we are dead to this world.

      So yes, you can go on living in this flesh thinking you are better than others, or you can let the Law do its work of leading you to repentance in dust and ashes as Abraham, David, and the prophets did, and then be born again in the Spirit of life, and receive and hear his living word, and then you will be under the new covenant and the Law will be written on your heart.

      My prayer is that you will at the very least examine your assumptions, with the living scriptures in mind, and then you may at least see that you are missing the good news of the Word becoming flesh.


      • Modern Israel is the land of the USA. And the church of Israel is the Seventh-day Adventists. the 2520 year prophecy of lev. 26 proves this.

        Go watch The 2520 Revealed by Parminder Biant .

        • list=PLb6_Mqleg6ApkiMEkpwqcZj_l_Lu01gNw

          copy and paste into browser.

        • http://mmoutreachinc.com/seventh_day_adventists/sda_facts.html

          I can go on the internet and find stuff to make my point too. I would rather “reason together”.

        • Youtube over an hour length! Gosh, anyone has time to kill to watch, even if they may say something true. But with 2520? Seems like another prophecy game SDA has loved some much and all failed. The fact is, by their own prediction game, they are not supposed be in this world ; – < If someone remember what this shows in a few paragraph I would appreciate. You are saving me quite a lot.

  152. Adam, Isa 66 does not say anything about poverty , please read it again. It deals with disobedience and its results and the blessings for the righteous and ends affirming Yah’s holy day, His Sabbath.

    The trees are for healing.

    • Shoshana
      Isa 66 tells me that we will have poor times in front of us and some Jews will eat pork and mouses because of hunger. No Jew will eat this if they have access to another food. Let me tell you like this. Isa 66:16 tells us that God will hold the doom and this is pretty soon. When he holds the doom he do it with fire and brimstones from heaven and when brimstones hits the soil nothing grows since the soil becomes salty. Jesus promised to come back and fire up the ungodly ones. And today almost everyone is ungodly. We are destroying the world by oil transports etc. In future we will no do this so we will not have access to medicines so Israel needs this trees for food and medicine.I could write a long post about this since I have read Jesus opening speach and my info is from his speach.

  153. Yah’s wrath will be directed to those who refuse to follow His holy teachings and follow the doctrines of demosns instead. There are many on earth that are like in the days of Noah. That is the destruciton for, a cleansing. However the righteous will be protected and provided for just as He did before with Israel in Egypt. This all happens at the end of the great tribulation when Yeshua returns with His army of angels. Israel might suffer some earthquakes but not totally destroyed, Israel will be restored and much abundance will be found there. Already Israel has flourished tremendously as He is faithful to bless His chosen people, Israel. At the end all that raise against her will be utterly destroyed.

    The nations that fail to send representation to Jerusalem for Yah’s 7th annual feast or sacred appontment time, Succot or Tabernacles will not receive rain that year, Zac 14:11-19.

    11 People will live there, the curse will be broken, and Yerushalayim will live in safety.

    12 Adonai will strike all the peoples who made war against Yerushalayim with a plague in which their flesh rots away while they are standing on their feet, their eyes rot away in their sockets, and their tongues rot away in their mouths. 13 When that day comes, there will be among them great panic, sent by Adonai, so that everyone lays hands on his neighbor, who in turn attacks him. 14 Y’hudah too will fight against Yerushalayim; and the wealth of all the nations will be assembled — gold, silver and clothing in great abundance. 15 A plague like this plague will also affect the horses, mules, camels, donkeys and all the other animals in those camps.

    16 Finally, everyone remaining from all the nations that came to attack Yerushalayim will go up every year to worship the king, Adonai-Tzva’ot, and to keep the festival of Sukkot. 17 If any of the families of the earth does not go up to Yerushalayim to worship the king, Adonai-Tzva’ot, no rain will fall on them. 18 If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up, if they refuse to come, they will have no [annual] overflow [from the Nile]; moreover, there will be the plague with which Adonai will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the festival of Sukkot. 19 This will be Egypt’s punishment and the punishment of all the nations that don’t go up to keep the festival of Sukkot.

  154. Adam, I like David’s allegory of the mirror, well said David. When you turn on the light switch or the car engine for that matter, you are not making a fire. That other ancient fire was labor (ever gone primitive camping and tried to make a fire rubbing sticks, etc?), switching on a light is not. Orthodox Jews teach this but that is not what it refers to. Yeshua had many an argument with Pharisees (such as picking a few grains as they walked by a field) regarding what it amounts to nit picking. I rest on Shabbat just as much sitting at this computer and discussing Yah’s word as when I do it on person with like minded believers. I love to talk about His word. I don’t go out shopping or do house cleaning on Shabbat because that is work.

    I yearn for the day when Yah’s angels will gather us back to the land, where everyone from the least to the greatest will cease from labor on His holy Shabbat. We will start the work week on the first day then have the sixth day as a preparation day for Shabbat. We will observe all the moedim the right way at the right time. We will have plenty to eat and not be sick and we will have shalom. More importantly, we will have our Jewish Messiah as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Shabbat shalom Adam!

    • Shoshana
      Shabbat is over now because I am living in sweden. And my sabbat is on sunday and that means no work. There is no thing called liberal Judaism. The only Jews are the Ortodox ones. I know that Ortodox Jews teach that you are not allowed to start car computer etc on sabbat and they are right according to Jesus. When Jesus made trouble with the Pharisees, he did it because he wanted to show them that it is a new way to belong to God now. Without Torah and Talmud. Only Tanach and NT. Do you want to say anything to Jesus. I can send him a greeting???

  155. Good contribution DJ “The Word (Scriptures) that Believers read and meditated upon at the time Paul wrote his letters was the “Old Testament”: The Law (teachings), commandments, psalms, books of wisdom and prophets.

    We are to be filled with the Spirit and wash ourselves with the Word (Scriptures).

    The Lord came to fulfill the Law. Nothing was abolished or removed but fulfilled”

    There are many scriptures that sustains following the Eternal’s teachings. Unfortunately the Roman church had great control (still does to an extent) and changed many things that made their many pagan constituents uncomfortable… I guess they too wanted to be ‘politically correct’…
    This is the legacy that the Gentiles churches have received from their ancestors and from which they have to repent as written in Jer. 19:16.

  156. Adama if you believe the Bishops, etc and follow their counsel instead of studying scripture for yourself then I can also sell you the Capitol building in Habana, its cupola is a tad taller than the one in DC…
    Oh by the way have you ever had Cuban coffee? Its a lot better than Colombian…

    • The say Brazilian coffee is the best but then I will live on this blog. I have read the Bible many times. I think I have a good overview over it.

      • Caffeine is an addictive drug. in the same of drugs as nicotine and cocaine.

  157. Adam, Do you know what the theme of Rom 7 really is?

    7 Surely you know, brothers — for I am speaking to those who understand Torah — that the Torah has authority over a person only so long as he lives? 2 For example, a married woman is bound by Torah to her husband while he is alive; but if the husband dies, she is released from the part of the Torah that deals with husbands. 3 Therefore, while the husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress if she marries another man; but if the husband dies, she is free from that part of the Torah; so that if she marries another man, she is not an adulteress.

    4 Thus, my brothers, you have been made dead with regard to the Torah through the Messiah’s body, so that you may belong to someone else, namely, the one who has been raised from the dead, in order for us to bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were living according to our old nature, the passions connected with sins worked through the Torah in our various parts, with the result that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from this aspect of the Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.”

    Rabbi Shaul is not telling believers to stop following Yah’s teachings as he himself followed them, that is not what Rabbi Shaul means here. Please put it all in a Jewish perspective and stop reading it from a Hellenistic one.

    I am a Messianic believer of Jewish ancestry.

    • Shoshana
      You say do you know the theme of Romans 7?
      I say I have several translations and the theme or subject or topic is fri from the law.

  158. Shoshana,

    Blessings to you in Messiah Yahshua. I am not of Jewish ancestory but I am a Messianic believer. Those you are conversing with cannot and will not see or understand what you are saying. They see you as a spreader of lies and false teaching, hopelessly deluded and misinformed. Hopefully, when Messiah’s return is imminent, eyes-ears-and hearts will be open to receive the truth. Just know that you are not alone in all of this.

    Be Blessed by Messiah in the unity of the faith

  159. Dru,

    No one is judging you. You are the one posting websites that says these things. If you post it, then own it! Don’t take offense because you are called on it.

    • Al
      Read your comment again.
      You in effect said I am blind, deaf, lacking in understanding of the truth.

      That is a judgment if I have ever seen one.

      You know me Al, You know my heart is for Israel….I would die for them that they come to know their Messiah and king. I know that on this you will not be by my side, but when I battle the anti-Semitic side of these teachings, you will be with me. (two tusks)

      Notice her argument below…exactly what the site said.

      God bless.

      • The last church on earth is blind, wretched, naked and miserable. Revelation 3.

        • I do not belong to those churches, I belong to Christ Jesus, who was and is and is to come….Your church believes in a different Jesus. They do not believe that he Was.

  160. Adam wrote: “but God has a new covenant with the people on earth called Christianity.”

    Adam where is this in scripture?

    Maybe you ought to check these books before making such claims:

    Lost in Translation, Rediscovering the Hebrew Roots of our Faith by John Klein and Adam Spears, also Ron Cantor’s Identity Theft

    There is much misunderstanding out there due to the Roman inheritance that has Hellenized Scripture as a whole. It is time to return to the roots.

    Also about the food part see this video:

  161. David,

    The Israelites were to remember that God ceased His work, and remember their redemption from Egypt by ceasing from work (because in Egypt, as slaves there was no rest).

    Through the Cross Jesus has made us a new creation and has redeemed us from our slavery to sin (and in the future He will redeem all of creation) and has given us rest frompur works.

    We break the bread and drink the cup in remembrance. He is now our rest. It is no longer a day, it is a Person. New Covenant, new prieshood, new laws.

  162. Dru,

    If I did not believe the “Christian Church” was wrong on some of these things, we would probably be in full agreement. But the fact that you see me wrong on the same points, means that you also see me as not being able to see-hear- or understand. The difference is, it doesn’t bother me. In fact I expect it from Christians. It is not like something has changed. This has always been the way it is.

    This is how I read what is being said: Shosana has no problem with the new covenant. The problem was with a new covenant called Christianity which eradicated pretty much everything Hebrew and made it into a gentile religion laced with Babylonian sun god worship. Something other than what it was in the beginning. For three centuries, the new covenant flourished until Constantine made a deal with the Gentile believer’s of Messiah-get rid of everything Jewish (Yah’s things) and they would not be persecuted anymore. They agreed and allowed the worship of Yahshua to be tainted and compromised with Babylonian sun god worship, rather than the Sabbath and the Moedim, even as it is to this day and no one sees any problem with this. In fact, if anything is said, they are ridiculed and told it is only about Love now. Nothing else matters. Love is the foundation of all, but does not make Yah’s word of no affect. It mattered for the first three centuries since Messiah. What changed??? The people of Yah became Hellenized (as Shoshana wrote above). But the day is coming and not far off, when Messiah Yahshua will restore the Kingdom to Israel and replace Babylonian sun god worship with the things of Yah.

    I am not against you Dru at all or anyone else for that matter. But I and others like me will speak what we know to be true as I am sure the Christian Church will speak what they believe to be true. It has been this way for centuries and will not end until Messiah returns.

    Be Blessed Dru

  163. closing page…everyone is off the subject. you can go to a new page and discuss things

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